Types of Saving Throws
Cover Saves: "Often, you’ll find enemy models are partially hidden or obscured by terrain, which is also known as being in cover.
So *any* level of obscurement means you are 'in cover'. But being 'in cover' is not enough to grant a cover save, there is another requirement.
Determining cover saves: "If...the target model’s body (see General Principles) is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save"
So, you need to be 'in cover' enough to be obscured 25% in order to get a cover save from terrain.
What about intervening models
Intervening models:"If a target is partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit, it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain."
So according to this, you treat intervening models "in the same way" as you treat terrain. And as we saw above, terrain requires you be in cover enough to be obscured 25%.
But intervening models have a unique characteristic, and additional rule
Intervening models: " Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer"
So, even the space between models is sufficient to provide cover.... but being 'in cover' is *not* sufficient to grant a cover save. You need to be in cover enough to be 25% obscured.
Some people like to assert that the last sentence really means the space between automatically provides a cover save. But lets look at an example of this.
Lets say you are shooting at a Wraithknight, and there is a single leman russ in front of it, obscuring 10% of the model. Well, there is no gaps, so that last sentence can have no effect, so there can be no cover save allowed.
Now lets say that leman russ is part of a squadron, and they are separated enough so you can see the wraithknight between the two leman russes. Now there is a gap... so now some people say the wraithknight would get a cover save.
So... according to their logic, if the object is obscured 10% by an actual object, no cover save, but if you can see it between two objects, yes cover save.... Just doesn't make sense.
Now, sometimes rules don't make sense. But in this case, the rule says the space between puts you "in cover", it does *NOT* say it automatically provides a cover save.
It says to treat it "the same as" terrain...which requires you be in cover and be obscured 25%.
Asmodas wrote: It's about as clear as a Venomthrope's spore cloud... seriously, this needs an FAQ.
Agreed. Personally, I recommend a YMDC thread rather than sidetrack here, but I disagree slightly with Coredump:
Intervening models:"If a target is partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit, it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain."
So according to this, you treat intervening models "in the same way" as you treat terrain. And as we saw above, terrain requires you be in cover enough to be obscured 25%.
But intervening models have a unique characteristic, and additional rule
The sentence fragment "in the same way as if it was behind terrain" does not apply to the "partially obscured" part of the sentence, it is directed at the 5+ cover save. All that fragment means is that the save (a 5+) is the same as that granted by intervening terrain. The only requirement to receive that cover save, by the rules of English Diction, is to be "Partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit".
Again, I recommend a YMDC thread because I think it is a poorly worded rule that needs clarification. I know that it's a widely disputed issue, and so I try to avoid using or bringing up the rule in competitive play by ensuring cover saves through other means. However, in 6th edition, the majority consensus was that only "partially obscured" was required and that this could be less than 25%. The wording has not changed in 7th edition.
Seems like you're looking for an advantage not meant to be IMO. You can discuss it on YMDC til you're blue in the face and not reach any clear resolution.
jifel wrote: @luke: I did in 6th, but it hasn't come up in 7th at all, I'd have to check the wording. But, I buy barricades for my Bastion so I know the tyrants will have cover turn 1, after that they're too far ahead to ever get gant cover, and I usually rely on ruins/forests for cover
When I want to screen Tyrants, I look to Gargoyles, I have not looked it up, because they do obscure the Big Bug...
The sentence fragment "in the same way as if it was behind terrain" does not apply to the "partially obscured" part of the sentence, it is directed at the 5+ cover save.
But that is an assumption you are making. There is nothing in that sentence restricting the similarity to only that. (It would also make that phrase meaningless...)
Further, 'same way' denotes a process... not a value.
If two things *are* the same, they are not the "same way".
If they *happen* the same, they happen the 'same way'.
You can not "cover save in the same way"
You can "receive in the same way"
"in the same way" makes no sense if applied to "cover save", it *does* make sense if applied to how something is received.
yeah i haven't seen anything ground breaking from the BAO, everyone kind of figured that pod spam and IK were going to be a pain in the rear, and we already knew that bikes/gravspam were pretty annoying.
i'd be happy to see some new lists but i'm not seeing anything that shakes the list building tech up, aside from malanthropes.
If you're liking what you currently run that is fine and more power to you. It does seem like there is some divergence which to me is always actually a good thing. I do think that just throwing down SB has some limitations. I like Ichine's list and what he is doing with Tyranids.
i had to look those up, i'm not on dakka a whole lot so i'm not familiar with many of the posters here. lot of us are running similar over on the hive. looks good ^^
things are in a bit of a flux right now, we're in a brand new edition, armies are coming out quickly, and we've even got a couple of new units that are (shockingly) usable. i wasn't really expecting (or happy with) this new edition, but IMO it's better than 5 years with the same ruleset and way longer often with the same codex.
didn't mean to poo-poo any new approaches, just meant from the data coming in from BAO, there wasn't much shocking.
Dozer Blades wrote: I like Ichine's list and what he is doing with Tyranids.
What did his list have in it?
gigasnail wrote: didn't mean to poo-poo any new approaches, just meant from the data coming in from BAO, there wasn't much shocking.
See the thing is there isnt much new data because everyone uses the same old stuff. We already knew the capabilities of most of the units that were used, people are discouraged from trying to use new units or tactics on this thread. Any attempt to say that a unit is useable is quickly shot down by a dakkafex! The only new info we have is what other people are using.
So Nids were slapped down to earth day 2. Out of 115 the four best Tyranid players placed 17, 35, 38 and 51. All using lists with Imperial Armour/Forgeworld units and/or Formations, unless I'm mistaken. Pretty depressing that even with Skyblight we can't even break into top ten.
4th ed Nidzilla were the good old days, we've been tier 2 since then. I wouldn't mind, if the internal balance was better.
Dozer Blades wrote: I like Ichine's list and what he is doing with Tyranids.
What did his list have in it?
gigasnail wrote: didn't mean to poo-poo any new approaches, just meant from the data coming in from BAO, there wasn't much shocking.
See the thing is there isnt much new data because everyone uses the same old stuff. We already knew the capabilities of most of the units that were used, people are discouraged from trying to use new units or tactics on this thread. Any attempt to say that a unit is useable is quickly shot down by a dakkafex! The only new info we have is what other people are using.
wait, aren't you the guy that hasn't actually played any games with tyranids yet?
Is Skyblight the current meta for Nids? While I will say that it performing worse than ground lists comes as no surprise to me and no doubt many others, I think jy2s results at the BOA are not definitive and could be easily be bad luck, I mean he was the only person running Skyblight it's not on it's own enough to call for a meta switch. But regardless, judging by this thread alone I think the meta appears to be some combination of Living Artillery and Dakkafexes, look at all the lists posted for the last pages. It seems to me that the only people still running SB are the people who can't use the models for a ground list or maybe just prefer the play style, at this point it's pretty clearly the subpar build.
Now we had some...interesting lists show up. Because the tournament was a mish mash of organisation it became a clusterduck. From memory...
Necrons - 4 Pylons, Tesseract Vault, Barges, minimal troops
IG - Mini tank company, conscripts, Shadowsword or some variant
IG Tank Company - something like 10 Russes, a Basilisk and some Vet squads
Few SM army
And the comedy value of the entire day - Reaver Titan, Sniper Scouts, Tac squad and captain. Yes. There was a Reaver.
So...onto mini battle reports and evaluations of how things performed.
I'll sum up some things right now.
Termagants - Did Gaunt things. As standard. Sat on objectives, scampered about, nothing too special. Don't really need to evaluate their performance so much.
Venomthropes - Did Venomthrope things. That is, cover bubble and little more. Another thing that doesn't need to be evaluated so much.
Zoanthropes - Love or hate them, they did what they were meant to. Warp Blast did bugger all, but they kept the Synapse bubble strong and their second powers (Onslaught/Catalyst/Dominion) did the real work.
Game 1 - IG Armoured Company
Opponent's list was a Company Commander Russ Squadron in Punishers, Pask with a squadron in Vanquishers, one of the ignore cover russes, 2 Demolishers, a few normal russes, a basilisk, some Veteran squads and a mini squad of storm troopers.
Warlord Trait for me was MoA - resulting in the Flyrants and Hierodule starting further forward. Got first turn, Flyrants went forward, multiple glances on rear armour wiped out the Punisher Squadron and the Basiilisk popped. The Hierodule popped a Russ and stripped a Hull Point off Pask.
First turn's fire was all thrown at the Hierodule which ignored it all.
Second turn, Popped the Vanquishers, popped another two Russ and popped the Eradicator. My opponent then conceded.
The Flyrants did all the work. Major stars of the show there.
The Hierodule sort of soaked fire and killed very little.
The Trygon had only just shown up before my opponent conceded.
Same with the Warriors.
Second game was...Mechdar. Opponent got first turn, Warlord trait was so useless I forgot what it was, Night Fight happened.
To sum this game up - I could not make a FNP save to save my life if I tried. My opponent was also ridiculously lucky with Overwatch. Never have I see someone casually pick up ten dice, roll 6 6s and then roll a similar amount of 6s to wound.
Flyrants - did about as well as could be expected. Efforts greatly hampered by 2+ cover saves on turn 1 and then further hampered by the fact that I couldn't roll D6s the rest of the game. My D2 skills were pretty awesome though.
Hierodule - At least he took 2 and a half turns to kill. And the entire eldar army shooting at him. I'm sure if I actually could make a single FNP save he would have lasted longer.
Trygon - Showed up, ate some warp spiders, ate some dire avengers, could do little more.
Raveners - Did you know a 5+ save sucks against Serpent Shields? Yeah. Me too.
Warriors - tried their damndest to do some objective grabbing. In the end fell apart due to a Wraithknight taking offense at their existence.
Yeah, surprise, objectives flipped over and my opponent won on those alone.
Third game - I get to face the Reaver Titan. YAY ME.
To sum it up. I get first deployment. I get first turn. I get MoA - result is Trygon, Hierodule and Tyrants starting closer.
First turn goes as follows - Trygon slithers closer, Tyrants fly forward and strip off Void Shields, Hierodule opens fire and strips off 4 HP.
Titan returns fire - 3 D hits on the Hierodule. 3 6s. Well. Pop goes the Hierodule. Automatic 18 wounds. Ouch. Other shot hits the rest of the army. Pop go the venomthropes. The rest get away unscathed. Phew.
Second turn - Trygon assaults, One Tyrant comes down to land, second Tyrant remains airborne just in case. Raveners pop up nearby.
Trygon smashes. Strips off 5 more HP. Hilariously survives return attacks (WS 5 vs WS 2!) and my opponent gets one stomp with a 1.
In the following turn the tactical squad and captain assault the Trygon. Trygon takes a few hits. Loses 4 wounds. Survives. Strips off more HP.
Third turn - Raveners assault captain and tac squad, destroy the tac squad with impunity. Tyrant joins Trygon in smash fest. More HP stripped off the titan. Everyone continues to wail on the Trygon. Trygon survives with one wound left.
More hitting ensues. Captain starts taking wounds but kills a Ravener. More efforts to splat a Trygon. More HP stripped off the Reaver.
Suffice to say this repeated itself until the Captain died to Raveners and the Reaver got smashed to death by the Trygon. And then exploded. Killing the Trygon. One lone scout squad found two Tyrants eating it alive afterwards.
Summary - not a lot that could be done there really. The warriors just...sat around.
The Tyrants did the best they could.
The Raveners turned out useful.
The Trygon made his points back SO FETHING MUCH.
But yeah, overall results...
Placed 3rd.
Another tournament coming up in October and there will be some changes.
Planned changes for future tournament!
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
It was a miracle worker because you played it wrong.
I generally tend to blame myself when I make a play mistake, rather than my opponent. Endeavour to follow the rules, it might benefit you for the game but falsely deserved wins will only hold back your learning and skew your game sense. Like thinking Trygon is a good unit.
SHUPPET wrote: It was a miracle worker because you played it wrong.
I generally tend to blame myself when I make a play mistake, rather than my opponent. Endeavour to follow the rules, it might benefit you for the game but falsely deserved wins will only hold back your learning and skew your game sense. Like thinking Trygon is a good unit.
It still survived an obscene amount of abuse thrown at it through sheer luck, tying up the most destructive element of his army for the longest period of time.
But hey, throwing out personal attacks once more. It's k, continue as it were.
More to the point - I don't field super heavy vehicles for the most part or at all. I have exactly 0 super heavy vehicles in my collection. When I encounter them there's generally one approach - strip away hull points for a result. That tends to be the tyranid response for most vehicles as a force of habit. Generally, when my opponents come to me and ask what a gargantuan creature does, I tell them. In fact, I keep that page as a reference - if I am using one I will need the reference there for it. If my opponent is going by an older version of the rules rather than the more current one - on his head be it. I had my own rules to keep track of and to that point had encountered zero other superheavy vehicles.
If you field something - I expect you to have the rules for it or to at least know them sufficiently enough. Hence why my bookmarks were on Gargantuan Creatures, Stomp and the Psychic Phase.
So please, do try less with the personal attacks here. It seems all you have gone for this entire thread is one scathing personal attack after another. Did I say the Trygon was a particularly good unit? Not really. But by fluke it did something and by fluke it performed admirably well. Perhaps if your focus wasn't on deliberately trying to push me down into the dirt and perhaps if you actually approached things with any purpose but that you too could smile and appreciate the odd flukes that happen every now and then.
If you were playing by the rules, every HP a Trygon did that game a Mawloc would have done as well. Except for 2/3 the price. With hit and run. And burrowing to safety if successful. And an AP2 blast the next turn. Considering you weren't even using his deep strike that the model pays so much for, a Tyrannofex would have had the exact same results in combat except also Haywire grubs HP, Acid Spray turn 1 thx to MoA, and +2 save. Still cheaper. Absolutely no advantage to taking Trygon compared to either of them in that game.. This is what I mean by skewing your game sense and unit perception.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
But hey, throwing out personal attacks once more. It's k, continue as it were.
What? Please, show me WHERE in my last post I made a personal attack. Even once. Hell even the first time since you are speaking as if I've done it previously. I'm the guy who defended you when core dump was making all the personal attempts against your character by calling you bias - please do not sit here and claim I'm personally attacking you by explaining why playing by the rules is for your benefit, not your opponents.
SHUPPET wrote: If you were playing by the rules, every HP a Trygon did that game a Mawloc would have done as well. Except for 2/3 the price. With hit and run. And burrowing to safety if successful. And an AP2 blast the next turn. Considering you weren't even using his deep strike that the model pays so much for, a Tyrannofex would have had the exact same results in combat except also Haywire grubs HP, Acid Spray turn 1 thx to MoA, and +2 save. Still cheaper. Absolutely no advantage to taking Trygon compared to either of them in that game.. This is what I mean by skewing your game sense and unit perception.
There's this thing called WYSIWYG. Don't know about you but where I am, the tournament actually had a ruling that units had to be WYSIWYG. And, well, a Trygon isn't a Mawloc. Sure, I could have fielded it as a Mawloc. Pretty sure with it showing up in 0 games due to violation of that rule it would have performed better.
There's also this thing where in most tournament compositions you actually get points for a painted army - as I mentioned a while back I was aiming for a fully painted list. Sure I could have had a Tyrannofex who, unpainted would have docked points from the overall composition. Oh, and at WS 3 would have been hit far more often by the tac marines and the Titan itself. Oh, and at I2 would have really been taking free hits from the Marines before the Raveners even got involved in that assault.
Oh, and probably wasn't even a guaranteed turn 2 assault to actually stop the Titan firing its load off on the rest of the army from that point onwards (Move closer, run closer, next turn assault and with a fleet reroll..well...there we go. Titan tied up and no longer shooting from that point onward).
As I stated - the Trygon did...poorly. The Raveners overall did poorly.
But they were painted and for every little success it's somethng at least.
But hey, I'm sorry I wasn't fielding your army. I mean, that's crazy right? That this is a general tactical thread for Tyranids that considers different army compositions and not just one person's army. Crazy that it takes into account the experiences of multiple people rather than just one.
But between two people on this thread - and only two people I have never been put off a community more in my life. The rest of you, including the guy who started the thread in the first place have been amazing but just two individuals in particular seem to have gone all out recently for some pretty aggressive personal attacks.
Tell you what Shuppet.
Next tournament you can field your army. And I won't judge you for it. I won't judge you for circumstances that come up between one point or another preventing certain elements being altered, I won't judge you for wanting a generally softer list for a Charity tournament with a focus on actually having a painted army for it. But in return please, extend that courtesy to others, k?
@Wilson: I'd probably go 2 for 2. Stonecrushers are nice but the best thing they provide is that amazing bubble of AT that we are otherwise lacking in, as applying it to the tank you want dead isn't guaranteed due to their assaulty nature. This allows you to cover both sides of the board fully, or band together and ensure one side of the board is yours, in games where one might be the first thing to die. I'd say when taking 1, take 2!
I was swaying for 2 for 2 too. I like the symmetry! I am wondering if the stone crushers are worth it though, being the same cost as a dakkfex, I could just get a normal fex and give it crushing claws for +1 attack and AG for fleet...
I'll have to test both and see which one draws the least fire and makes it's own back.
Let's not get this thread closed. Bummer you did the rules wrong but hell that guy should know what smash dies so his Reaver could live. Anyways gray job tyranid players fighting the gid fight at BAO. You threatened and placed higher than I expected any tyranid player would. Great job! !
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's not get this thread closed. Bummer you did the rules wrong but hell that guy should know what smash dies so his Reaver could live. Anyways gray job tyranid players fighting the gid fight at BAO. You threatened and placed higher than I expected any tyranid player would. Great job! !
It would be very nice if my favourite thread Dakka did not get locked on account of people going off on a tangent at others for disagreeing with a strategic statement, and reporting any follow up responses. Would be nice if we could discuss strategy as adults. I'm just going to let sleeping dogs lie.
Wilson, I think the nicest thing about the Stonecrusger is AP2 HoW. Dakkafexes don't offer that. However, as you said you may just be better off with Dakkafexes in general for their versatility as you said. But I must say that I do think if you are going to take 1 you are probably best off taking 2 to secure the investment a little.
To be fair this thread was hijacked long ago, a lot of this info potentially no longer applies and I would suggest (if someone is willing) to summarise the tactica for 7th in an initial post and create a new thread for 7th.
Oh and FGS, don't be a douche to each other, this is for the common good of Tyranids!
L0rdF1end wrote: To be fair this thread was hijacked long ago, a lot of this info potentially no longer applies and I would suggest (if someone is willing) to summarise the tactica for 7th in an initial post and create a new thread for 7th.
Oh and FGS, don't be a douche to each other, this is for the common good of Tyranids!
One of the reasons I started nids was because of the positive outlook everyone had on this thread.
A summary of 7th ed changes/ tactics would be awesome!
Anyone have any experience against Tesla Destructor obsessed Necrons? One of our locals at the league has been running a duel-CAD list involving 6 Annihilation Barges and 4 Nightscythes and thus far remains undefeated. I have little experience against necrons in general and have only had one game against the list in question thus far. Unfortunately, said game wasn't a very good learning experience due to an odd number of people (it was a 1v1v1), I ended up right between the Necron list and a Dark Eldar raider spam list with a bunch of "useless" poison weapons in need of targets...
L0rdF1end wrote: To be fair this thread was hijacked long ago, a lot of this info potentially no longer applies and I would suggest (if someone is willing) to summarise the tactica for 7th in an initial post and create a new thread for 7th.
Oh and FGS, don't be a douche to each other, this is for the common good of Tyranids!
One of the reasons I started nids was because of the positive outlook everyone had on this thread.
A summary of 7th ed changes/ tactics would be awesome!
I hate to be a spoiler of my own efforts, but seeing as you brought it up - I'm currently working on compiling a MOAP (Mother of All Posts) contribution to this thread. Except it won't be just my contribution - will be everyone's.
Making heavy use of the spoiler tag in this MOAP, I've made a heading for each unit in the dex, and have begun going through both this thread AND the original Tyranid leak thread under News & Rumours, which although initial opinions, still full of well thought out and relevant responses.
I've taken all relevant discussion and condensed copy pastes of it without doubling up on any statements, adding to each unit as I turn each page of the thread. I've split each units description into points both for and against - remember, this is not intended to be a guide written by SHUPPET sharing my opinions, this is taking everyone's opinions shared throughout both threads and condensing it into one large guide of condensed opinions. If you are a posting member of strategy, you are likely to see your exact words somewhere in there at least once (unless everything you have said is just a rehashed statement of something mentioned prior, I'm trying to avoid doubling up to keep it concise). Well reasoned opinions stating why a unit is bad or good are being included whether I agree with the opinion on the unit or not - this is intended to share all relevant info and strategic approaches to units and allow people to make their own judgement, based off the opinions of Dakka itself. Not just SHUPPET, as I'm sure you've all heard what I think many many times
Anyway, I'm chewing through it, and what I hope to achieve when I'm done is a resource available for DakkaNids unlike anything else really compiled yet - call it a merging off the Hive fleets seperately obtained knowledge!
I have just spoiled myself on this one and was planning to surprise, but aye it will be a week or two yet afore I'm finished and you'll all have probably forget by then but if this sounds like what you are asking for, then rest assured tis on it's way - I've already put in too much work on it for me to forget about it now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean anyone can tell you what units to play, but that's not a real guide is it, just instructions
With his single Smash attack? You were playing 6th ed rules?
Well, it would appear the person using the superheavy done goofed there.
Meh. Such I shrug.
Trygon still was the miracle worker of that game.
Actually what SHUPPET is questioning and I am wondering about is how the devil you stripped 5 hullpoints with a single Smash attack? Smash should only strip 4HPs max do to being a single attack, so you got 1 HPHoW and the Smash scored and Explosion result? Also just how many hull points does a Reaver have?
Dozer Blades wrote: I'm curious as to which page that appears. It's been awhile since I read it. While I love my Tyranids I find that a very abusive misapplication of the rules for an unfair advantage as it seems the rules for area terrain have been greatly streamlined.
Anyways now that the BAO has debunked the current Tyranid meta I think we can go back to the drawing board for a fresh look... Exciting !
So I kinda thought that this could be a new point of discussion for us Tyranid players. Maybe not in the way that *I think* Dozer Blades meant it.
In my opinion, I think that he's kind of right. There *has* been a meta shift. For starters, Torrent of Fire has this neat article. While not up to date with BAO information, we can all regard Tyranid performance in BAO as a disappointing one. Not due to any particular issue, because there are an infinite number of reasons why Tyranids didn't do better. However, I think the largest take away in regards to their poor performance (and I'm not 100% sure, I'm simply making an observation based on people's comments surrounding top performers in BAO) is that Objective secured has/was the largest advantage you could have. Many top performing lists had TONS of Obj. Secured units.
Many of the Tyranid lists I have been seeing, not to mention those that I'm designing, have very little objective secured units. Lets look at a "typical Skyblight" build. Most of the "competitive" designs have maybe 5 objective secured units? Yes 3 of them respawn on a 4+, but that doesn't mean anything when you've lost it in the first place. You still have, AT MOST, 5 Objective secured units alive at any point in the game.
Many of the other lists that utilize Living Artillery Node have even fewer Objective secured units. Two? Maybe? From my observations it's even Deep striking rippers which are, arguably, one of the worst units to rely on to hold an objective.
So, maybe as a point of discussion, so that we can redirect some of the negative discussion, what do you guys think we need to do (as Tyranid players) to be more successful? Is it simply taking more Objective secured units? I believe I've seen jifel has been using an Imperial knight as an ally to shore up weak spots in our lists. Do we need to be fluff murderers to stay remotely competitive?
Personally I've been less interested in this thread for a particular reason that I've seen take over the meta-thought here.
As a tyranid player, you're usually a reactionary force. There's very little you can do for one to two turns, the cover always matters more to you than your opponent. And generally you need to keep moving around your threat vectors based on what is going to cause you the most damage...not, what you can cause the most damage to.
Many lists here have lost the mid-game adaptibility that I find necessary in so many Tyranid lists. While the Dakkafex is actually a powerful example of this adaptibility, many list focus on maximizing them, or flying monstrous creatures, etc. which actually inhibits this strategy.
What we don't see is lists that can change tactics to suit the enemy and the board. It's what many of our Warlord traits were designed for. It's what many of our powers were designed for.
Where has Hive Commander gone? Why the debacle on Zoanthropes when they are so flexible? Where are the genestealers that allow you to displace threat vectors and draw enemy fire. With the subsidence of the Tau meta, many units and tactics became much more plausible.
For example, have you realized how easy it is for a true horde to topple eldar? I play both eldar and fear the massive number of bodies that bugs, orks, or cultists can bring. Serpents put out a lot dakka, but its a lot for mid strength shots, not a lot when bugs true quality rests in their quantity.
Sorry for spewing out so many random thoughts without a direct purpose. Just some things I've been holding back a while. I fully expect someone to pick apart my statements and refute them individually...
...and meh...do what you will. I may or may not respond.
I lost interest in this thread with the much ado made about SB being the only way to competitively play Nidz. We have seen that in actual play it didn't cut the mustard versus the top players at BOA. I have seen better lists IMO that don't rely upon Imperial gimmicks and rules loopholes to win. So my interest is sparked again but I think a new thread is in order... Let this one RIP.
I like your thinking for the most part, and although I disagree with some individual statements I think the attitude is a good one. The value of a unit is hard to measure if it is playable in many different ways based on situation to situation.
However, I don't think Zoanthrope is one of these units. It might have some different possible playstyles, but the roll at the start of the game often locks it into one, or even just decides it's effeciency at often the same or highly similar "support" role every game. Psychic Scream being the exception, but also the biggest "letdown" power.
Hive Commander is nice! Great for Devilgants and other troops, the question really isn't Hive Commander itself, just the strength of our troops... One of which already gets Deepstrike for cheaper and another who comes stock standard with both Infiltrate and Outflanking, and Troops being the obvious weak point of the dex, it's hard to find useful applications of Hive Commander at times.
Genestealers I think are underrated - however, NOT as fire magnets. They cost the price of a TAC Marine each, except they ain't got no power armor. 14 points per wound is wildly expensive - Gants pay 4 per wound. This puts stealers closer to Mawlocs at points per wound, who pay 23 per wound except at T6 - and they DO get power armor. They are glass cannons and rely heavily on not getting shot, or being taken en masse to ensure your "cannon" gets applied right next to your "glass". I think these can be used well, and ARE quite adaptable to the game on the fly, but require a pretty dedicated list.
Almost any roll on the start table is better than our Warlord table. The adaptability presented there is much higher.
Massing gribblies against Serpents is actually solid and would work well. I think the issue is finding a swarm list as versatile amongst all opponents as say Skyblight or the Dakkafex Onslaught. I've never really looked into this because I CBF moving that many models in a game lol!
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Dozer Blades wrote: I lost interest in this thread with the much ado made about SB being the only way to competitively play Nidz. We have seen that in actual play it didn't cut the mustard versus the top players at BOA. I have seen better lists IMO that don't rely upon Imperial gimmicks and rules loopholes to win. So my interest is sparked again but I think a new thread is in order... Let this one RIP.
Well, it's nice that this thread doesn't interest you but it still does others. If you didn't feel Skyblight was the best option you can always chip in with an opinion - I certainly would have agreed with you. But it's been a while now since people have been saying SB is the only option, well and truly before any BAO results, and there was only one single showing for Skyblight there that we know of, hardly any definitive judgement for the entire build neither for or against. The issues you have with this thread are no longer relevant or valid, maybe stick around a bit and see where it leads you? There's lots new being discussed daily!
Genestealers have access to BL which are the awesome and have an excellent psychic power... BL is basically an T5 HQ you can field as an troop choice with a retinue.
Very useful. They can ensure a turn 2 charge with Infiltrate, or decide to sit back in Venomthrope cover, perhaps with a screen. There's a lot that can be changed on a game per game basis with Stealers like duct was looking for in units / lists, however it's important to remember that no matter how well you play them to the situation, 5 Genestealers out there by themselves are just going to die.
They are piss easy to kill, points effecient to shoot at, and pose a big threat if ignored. Playing them takes numbers and support to mitigate their natural weakness IMO. Because once you get them into combat and striking at initiative, they hit like a truck. Not much that won't be felled by enough Stealers.
Wilson, I think the nicest thing about the Stonecrusger is AP2 HoW. Dakkafexes don't offer that. However, as you said you may just be better off with Dakkafexes in general for their versatility as you said. But I must say that I do think if you are going to take 1 you are probably best off taking 2 to secure the investment a little.
While there is an advantage to doing damage at I10 instead of I2.... The Dakka fex gets more AP2 attacks at I2.
SC 2attacks AP2 at I10, then 3 AP2 at I2 (on the charge)
Dfex gets 2 attks AP- at I10, then 4 AP2 at I2 (charge)
In subsequent rounds, the Dfex is just plain better. 3 AP2 attacks instead of the SCfex 2 AP2 attacks.
And none of this even touches on the 12 S6 shooting attacks. If you only want CC fex, CCLaws and AG is going to be better than a SC fex is almost all cases.
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Strat_N8 wrote: Anyone have any experience against Tesla Destructor obsessed Necrons? One of our locals at the league has been running a duel-CAD list involving 6 Annihilation Barges and 4 Nightscythes and thus far remains undefeated. I have little experience against necrons in general and have only had one game against the list in question thus far. Unfortunately, said game wasn't a very good learning experience due to an odd number of people (it was a 1v1v1), I ended up right between the Necron list and a Dark Eldar raider spam list with a bunch of "useless" poison weapons in need of targets...
Try a double CAD 4 flyrants 2 crones, and whatever else you want.
Massing gribblies against Serpents is actually solid and would work well. I think the issue is finding a swarm list as versatile amongst all opponents as say Skyblight or the Dakkafex Onslaught. I've never really looked into this because I CBF moving that many models in a game lol!
Ok i like where this is going, so being a fan of swarmy lists i present the Hive Mind with a challenge:
Compose a competitive(ish) swarmy list!
Requirements:
1) Maximize the number of gribblies and mid sized bugs. 1 Flyrant/Walkrant is fairplay, 2 are a bit too much. Add MC only if absolutely necessary and explain why that MC really has to be there.
2) Play on the concept of adaptability. The swarmy lists greatest strength is in being capable of playing in many different ways based on the opponent, so no one trick ponys, no all out ranged, no all out assault. Hybridize as much as possible.
3) Competitive(ish) means that the list needs to be a threath to the majority of popular lists I.E. with a good play you should have at least 40-45% chance of winning.
@coredump Yeah I haven't really analysed the Firgeworld units that much so I probably shouldn't have commented. Was really just applying my logic for CC Fexes in general, to the Stonecrusher. Looking at your logic, I think you are very right - even though the difference of 1 attack is marginal when you factor in to hit rates, the guns just do so much more for him. And it's not like a Dakkafex ever has any trouble with vehicles in CC. Those AP2 I10 were useful for tarpits - but only if, for some reason, you charged into one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Spoletta I like your logic so far and I will take the challenge with you! Even though I'll never run the list because meh /effort, I'll contribute and maybe put something together in a few hours from now on army builder and see where it gets me.
For now, I will say that I think it's important to find a way if dealing with higher than AV10 rear armour of any sort, without making the unit that does it a glaring target before it can do it's job. I think AG on the Gants is probably pretty important to get those glances as well now that we mention it.
1) Maximize the number of gribblies and mid sized bugs. 1 Flyrant/Walkrant is fairplay, 2 are a bit too much. Add MC only if absolutely necessary and explain why that MC really has to be there.
2) Play on the concept of adaptability. The swarmy lists greatest strength is in being capable of playing in many different ways based on the opponent, so no one trick ponys, no all out ranged, no all out assault. Hybridize as much as possible.
3) Competitive(ish) means that the list needs to be a threath to the majority of popular lists I.E. with a good play you should have at least 40-45% chance of winning.
So, who will take the challenge?
Tervigon (need an HQ), Malanthrope brood of 3, Hive Guard, Tervigon (for more gribblies), devilgant/spinegant in 10/10 sized squads, Shrikes, biovores... living artillery might be good
@Spoletta I like your logic so far and I will take the challenge with you! Even though I'll never run the list because meh /effort, I'll contribute and maybe put something together in a few hours from now on army builder and see where it gets me.
For now, I will say that I think it's important to find a way if dealing with higher than AV10 rear armour of any sort, without making the unit that does it a glaring target before it can do it's job. I think AG on the Gants is probably pretty important to get those glances as well now that we mention it.
Indeed our scarce AV on the lesser bugs (and the bugs in general) will be the critical point in list building. We can somehow do it in melee, but we need at least a bit of ranged AV to force the jinx or stuff like WS will murder us.
Wilson, I think the nicest thing about the Stonecrusger is AP2 HoW. Dakkafexes don't offer that. However, as you said you may just be better off with Dakkafexes in general for their versatility as you said. But I must say that I do think if you are going to take 1 you are probably best off taking 2 to secure the investment a little.
While there is an advantage to doing damage at I10 instead of I2.... The Dakka fex gets more AP2 attacks at I2.
SC 2attacks AP2 at I10, then 3 AP2 at I2 (on the charge)
Dfex gets 2 attks AP- at I10, then 4 AP2 at I2 (charge)
In subsequent rounds, the Dfex is just plain better. 3 AP2 attacks instead of the SCfex 2 AP2 attacks.
And none of this even touches on the 12 S6 shooting attacks. If you only want CC fex, CCLaws and AG is going to be better than a SC fex is almost all cases.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Strat_N8 wrote: Anyone have any experience against Tesla Destructor obsessed Necrons? One of our locals at the league has been running a duel-CAD list involving 6 Annihilation Barges and 4 Nightscythes and thus far remains undefeated. I have little experience against necrons in general and have only had one game against the list in question thus far. Unfortunately, said game wasn't a very good learning experience due to an odd number of people (it was a 1v1v1), I ended up right between the Necron list and a Dark Eldar raider spam list with a bunch of "useless" poison weapons in need of targets...
Try a double CAD 4 flyrants 2 crones, and whatever else you want.
It's worth pointing out that the Stone Crusher fex's attacks are AP1 with its wrecker claws and it gets to reroll armor pens.
Even at str10 on the charge, I have failed to destroy vehicles plenty of times with a dakkafex.
I still think a dakkafex is more useful simply because it adapts to multiple situations. However, if someone is looking strictly for a melee answer to vehicles, the stonecrusher seems to be the way to go over any other options.
In the wake of the advent of OS spam seen in the tournament, and Spoletta's comments, I started wondering if maybe we couldn't do that as well. So here is an interesting list that turns out to be 1815:
This has the advantage of easily going double CAD if you want. Although it's not true horde, on average a tervigon will spawn 2 units over the course of a game. So that's 9 OS units, two of which are huge squads, and the tervigon isn't exactly easy to take out either.
The lynchpins in this list are of course the malanthropes (one of which goes in a bastion naturally). If you wanted to have less if of a chance to give up first blood you could put the fexes in a single squad, but how ridiculous is it that a Malanthrope has the same armor save, same number of wounds and 1 less T! These guys are going to be all-stars and I think can make a number of our more assault-oriented troops like Genestealers and Raveners MUCH more survivable (dare I say viable?) because of how difficult the lynchpin itself is to kill.
Massing gribblies against Serpents is actually solid and would work well. I think the issue is finding a swarm list as versatile amongst all opponents as say Skyblight or the Dakkafex Onslaught. I've never really looked into this because I CBF moving that many models in a game lol!
Ok i like where this is going, so being a fan of swarmy lists i present the Hive Mind with a challenge:
Compose a competitive(ish) swarmy list!
Requirements:
1) Maximize the number of gribblies and mid sized bugs. 1 Flyrant/Walkrant is fairplay, 2 are a bit too much. Add MC only if absolutely necessary and explain why that MC really has to be there.
2) Play on the concept of adaptability. The swarmy lists greatest strength is in being capable of playing in many different ways based on the opponent, so no one trick ponys, no all out ranged, no all out assault. Hybridize as much as possible.
3) Competitive(ish) means that the list needs to be a threath to the majority of popular lists I.E. with a good play you should have at least 40-45% chance of winning.
That's the best I've got, I think, while staying competitive and having a swarm aspect. 90 models running straight up the board, with shrouded, but also will have great anti infantry firepower and some anti flyer. The Flyrants would have to be played conservatively, sticking near the Malanthropes for shrouded while those advance. There's enough shots to hurt bike lists, and some long ranged blasts. It will struggle against high AV walls like Russ lists, but that's hard to solve without flyer spam. Alternatively, you could drop one Flyrant for a second unit of 30 AG Gargoyles. I think the AG are needed to glance out vehicles, as there is little anti armor here.
luke1705 wrote: In the wake of the advent of OS spam seen in the tournament, and Spoletta's comments, I started wondering if maybe we couldn't do that as well. So here is an interesting list that turns out to be 1815:
This has the advantage of easily going double CAD if you want. Although it's not true horde, on average a tervigon will spawn 2 units over the course of a game. So that's 9 OS units, two of which are huge squads, and the tervigon isn't exactly easy to take out either.
The lynchpins in this list are of course the malanthropes (one of which goes in a bastion naturally). If you wanted to have less if of a chance to give up first blood you could put the fexes in a single squad, but how ridiculous is it that a Malanthrope has the same armor save, same number of wounds and 1 less T! These guys are going to be all-stars and I think can make a number of our more assault-oriented troops like Genestealers and Raveners MUCH more survivable (dare I say viable?) because of how difficult the lynchpin itself is to kill.
I expect all lists to have either venom or malan, if there is a way to play a swarmy list i don't think it can be without those guys. I'd be glad to be proven wrong though.
On turn 3 of my first practice game with my list vs the wife using
Jetseer w/5 jetbikes
Jetseer w/5 jetbikes
Waveserpent w/5 Dire Avengers
Waveserpent w/5 Dire Avengers
Waveserpent w/5 Dire Avengers
Waveserpent w/5 Dire Avengers
Wraithknight
Wraithknight
Warp Spiders
Pretty much the hardest to hurt list we could come up with.
But luck made it even worse so far. No one got Catalyst. Turn 1 she killed a Tyrant with Serpent shields dropping and me rolling a TON of 1's (she over killed it.) Turn 2 she rolled double 6s with a Wraithknight at a swooping Flyrant, wounding him twice, who then fell and was wounded, which was promptly charged and murdered by the Knight. So Im down two Flyrants already. Both knights are currently assaulted by two Carnifex each (which wounded on 2's thanks to Adrenal Glands, thats fun). We'll see what happens turn 3 in her assault phase.
It's been discussed to quite some length... So far some people hate it and others think it will work with air support. Personally I see it as decent, just not the kind of unit I need in my army.
Dozer Blades wrote: I lost interest in this thread with the much ado made about SB being the only way to competitively play Nidz. We have seen that in actual play it didn't cut the mustard versus the top players at BOA. I have seen better lists IMO that don't rely upon Imperial gimmicks and rules loopholes to win. So my interest is sparked again but I think a new thread is in order... Let this one RIP.
I would disagree with you and I do not think that's a fair assessment.
I think (from the guys we know) only Jim took Skyblight.
While Skyblight is a powerful cornerstone you need additional elements added to the list to deal with the current meta.
Even Jim stated that he hadn't had many games with SB.
So I do not feel this statement holds true.
With the latest Forgeworld releases and as more formations get play tested we may not see SB considered top tier for Nids at some point.
I still feel it is but also dependable on what you take with it and how you play it.
I would mostly state this because the meta is pretty crazy right now, so many things to deal with, so many different kinds of threats.
This doesn't really allow for spamming of Flyer control which puts SB in a strong position.
Spoletta wrote: 1) Maximize the number of gribblies and mid sized bugs. 1 Flyrant/Walkrant is fairplay, 2 are a bit too much. Add MC only if absolutely necessary and explain why that MC really has to be there.
The list starts the game with 60 gants on the table and has 2 tervigons who will create more, so that covers the swarm aspect of the list. The flyrants are to good not to use two of them, the tervigons add to the swarm element of my list, the dakkafex adds some dakka, and tyrannofex durability and acid spray is really good in certain match ups.
Spoletta wrote: 2) Play on the concept of adaptability. The swarmy lists greatest strength is in being capable of playing in many different ways based on the opponent, so no one trick ponys, no all out ranged, no all out assault. Hybridize as much as possible.
I have a nice mixture of shooting and assaulting units. I have 3 twin-linked devourers brainleeched units, 2 tyrant guard armed for cc, tyrannofex for his template, and the tervigons are sneaky anti-tank units.Taking advantage of the gants is the key to any swarm list whether through mass shooting or tieing something up in cc.
Spoletta wrote: 3) Competitive(ish) means that the list needs to be a threath to the majority of popular lists I.E. with a good play you should have at least 40-45% chance of winning.
I believe the list can easily win with a percentage better than 40-45%. The list will be improved with the new forgeworld units, I am very excited and looking at them now and seeing how I can move points around to make room for them.
Swarmlord's natural buffs beg for hive guard, hormagaunts, genestealers, raveners, gargoyles...shrikes, these are all units I have had great success alongside him.
...and mostly naked at that...hormagaunts...meh...hormagaunts with free furious charge and a 50/50 shot at catalyst...yup.
Spoletta wrote: 1) Maximize the number of gribblies and mid sized bugs. 1 Flyrant/Walkrant is fairplay, 2 are a bit too much. Add MC only if absolutely necessary and explain why that MC really has to be there.
The list starts the game with 60 gants on the table and has 2 tervigons who will create more, so that covers the swarm aspect of the list. The flyrants are to good not to use two of them, the tervigons add to the swarm element of my list, the dakkafex adds some dakka, and tyrannofex durability and acid spray is really good in certain match ups.
Spoletta wrote: 2) Play on the concept of adaptability. The swarmy lists greatest strength is in being capable of playing in many different ways based on the opponent, so no one trick ponys, no all out ranged, no all out assault. Hybridize as much as possible.
I have a nice mixture of shooting and assaulting units. I have 3 twin-linked devourers brainleeched units, 2 tyrant guard armed for cc, tyrannofex for his template, and the tervigons are sneaky anti-tank units.Taking advantage of the gants is the key to any swarm list whether through mass shooting or tieing something up in cc.
Spoletta wrote: 3) Competitive(ish) means that the list needs to be a threath to the majority of popular lists I.E. with a good play you should have at least 40-45% chance of winning.
I believe the list can easily win with a percentage better than 40-45%. The list will be improved with the new forgeworld units, I am very excited and looking at them now and seeing how I can move points around to make room for them.
I'm not sure but don't you need a second big Brood of Termagants (x30) to get the incubator Tervagon to count as Troops? Other wise it's "OK" 5 troops as is, 6 with a little jiggering, likely to have 9 or 10 during play....I'm guessing you depend on the Winged Tyrants for AA?
I've posted a few lists based on "Endless Swarm"...that's about as "swarmy" as you're likely to get.
I personally love the swarmy lists. I have found the first thing that does break swarmy lists is 2 tyrants as it pretty much costs you 2 troop squads.
Here is a 1000 point list I ran for fun against a solid IH bike with Vindicator and Whirlwind support list. It was doing very well even though we had to call it at the bottom of turn 3.
OOE is there for a melee beast. I think he is about the best melee fex in the codex, and provides 8LD bubble. Useful in case of dead synapse. Dakkafex was for AA and light armor hunting.
I was able to keep pressure on or control every objective, and that many bodies is hard to deal with at 1000 points for elite lists. This is a scaled down version of my 2000pt horde list which swaps OOE for an S-K adds an Exocrine, a Prime, bulks up the Termie/Spinegaunt squads consolidates the Hormies, adds genest ealers and Shrikes.
I'm not sure but don't you need a second big Brood of Termagants (x30) to get the incubator Tervagon to count as Troops? Other wise it's "OK" 5 troops as is, 6 with a little jiggering, likely to have 9 or 10 during play....I'm guessing you depend on the Winged Tyrants for AA?
I've posted a few lists based on "Endless Swarm"...that's about as "swarmy" as you're likely to get.
Only problem with Endless Swarm is no OS troops, which actually hurts the list.
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ductvader wrote: Swarmlord's natural buffs beg for hive guard, hormagaunts, genestealers, raveners, gargoyles...shrikes, these are all units I have had great success alongside him.
...and mostly naked at that...hormagaunts...meh...hormagaunts with free furious charge and a 50/50 shot at catalyst...yup.
That like is how I ran my 6e Hormies. No one expected much from them till after they stood off most of a guard army to hold a relic for 4 turns.
ductvader wrote: Swarmlord's natural buffs beg for hive guard, hormagaunts, genestealers, raveners, gargoyles...shrikes, these are all units I have had great success alongside him.
...and mostly naked at that...hormagaunts...meh...hormagaunts with free furious charge and a 50/50 shot at catalyst...yup.
I've been running Swarmy a lot recently. My meta has recently focused so far away from anti-air that even a single flyrant can be overwhelming to most of my opponents.
I do not think that he works well with Hive Guard. He can only hand out one buff per turn, and Hive Guard benefit most from preferred enemy, but because they are usually shooting vehicles, they only get to reroll one's to hit instead of also to wound. In most cases other units would benefit more from one of his buffs. Another reason to avoid Hive Guard is Swarmy needs as many Zoeys as warp charge batteries as possible. Also Perferred enemy on a zoey with a warp lance and a bead on a multi wound T4-5 model is pretty effective right there.
I do think he works well with genestealers. I've been infiltrating them to midfield into a ruin while conga-lining them back to my venomthrope so that the first models up front have a 2+ cover save on turn one. Then I hand out Furious charge or preferred enemy to them on turn 2, and let them kill something dead. I also use him a lot to get hormagaunts to S4 to kill vehicles.
My biggest problem with Swarmlord lists is, Swarmlord is such a critical part of the list that if he dies, I'm screwed. Still, with practice I've managed to make lists that have high enough threat levels that Swarmlord is usually neglected unless my opponent has a dreadnought that can assault him. The nerf to Smash hit him particularly hard, because dreadnoughts are very, very effective against him in close combat.
Bastion seems out of the question for most lists now. Having to place it in your own deployment zone now really kills its effectiveness.
Swarmlord has some tricks, but like stated if he dies then game over son. Most skilled players will realize that the Swarmlord is a true threat and will target him immediately.
Even with a Swarmy the Tyrant still out plays him with his access to electro grubs, a dread charging a Tyrant fears the D3 glances or even the explode result that could happen. The Swarmlord has not effect just more relative wounds that will do nothing in the ensuing combat.
Is there other avenues that we are overlooking? Is there something more we can build around living arty, or SB?
You can afford 2 Tyrants with points to spare for the price if a Swarmy and one of his Zope batteries. He's ridiculously overcosted, and suffers the same speed problems Dima. He is hands down the worst unit in the codex. A guy in my local was trying hard to make it work. Managed to get him into a good combat nice and fast a couple of games and still saw nowhere near any return on his points. And the games that he didn't, well, he had a 285 point fire magnet running up the board for the first three turns.
Flyrants may not have NEEDED Biomancy. Swarmlord certainly did.
SHUPPET wrote: 3 Makanthropes and a bastion seems like a bit of overkill. That's 3 Mawlocs worth of points spent securing a two point cover bonus.
To be fair, 3 Malanthropes and a Bastion is ~100 less than 3 Mawlocs. I think that either 1 Malanthrope in a Bastion is good, or 2-3 of them advancing. I wouldn't do both frankly.
140 1x Harpy / TLHVC 140 1x Harpy / TLHVC 155 1x Hive Crone
Total 1997pts
105 gaunts plus more being spawned from Tervigon plus Guargoyles come back if they get wiped out, I chose to go with skyblight since they offer the best gaunts available, flying gaunts that come back from the grave and have OS.
Aegis line to survive the first round or two of shooting and the Malanthropes to make them, last even longer.
Good air defense and threat to keep the opponents focus away from my gaunts and to shoot as im reaching him with my swarm
It's worth pointing out that the Stone Crusher fex's attacks are AP1 with its wrecker claws and it gets to reroll armor pens.
Even at str10 on the charge, I have failed to destroy vehicles plenty of times with a dakkafex.
I still think a dakkafex is more useful simply because it adapts to multiple situations. However, if someone is looking strictly for a melee answer to vehicles, the stonecrusher seems to be the way to go over any other options.
I had forgotten about the reroll...thanks for the catch.
My point was that the devilfex gets an additional attack (though only AP2), *and* all the shooting. But yes, if you are looking for a melee answer to AV13/14, you are better off with a CCfex.
But in that case, you are better off with a regular fex with CClaws and AG in stead of a SC fex.
SC:
2 HoW S10 AP2 armorbane
3 S10 AP1 reroll pens
CCFex
2 HoW S9 AP-
*5* S10 AP2 armorbane
If the target happens to live, or gets the charge on the fex; the disparity becomes huge.
SC Fex: 2 S10 AP1 reroll pens
CCFex: 4 S10 AP2 armorbane
Oh, and you also have to allow for the chances of actually making the charge. The CC Fex has FLeet, so will RUn faster and make longer charges.
I am curious if there is a role for the SC Flailfex and getting IDCC attacks... but I think anything T6 would be able to avoid CC with the fairly slow fex.
SHUPPET wrote: You can afford 2 Tyrants with points to spare for the price if a Swarmy and one of his Zope batteries. He's ridiculously overcosted, and suffers the same speed problems Dima. He is hands down the worst unit in the codex. A guy in my local was trying hard to make it work. Managed to get him into a good combat nice and fast a couple of games and still saw nowhere near any return on his points. And the games that he didn't, well, he had a 285 point fire magnet running up the board for the first three turns.
Flyrants may not have NEEDED Biomancy. Swarmlord certainly did.
Not to be overly argumentative, but that is wrong. It takes some skill to use swarmy effectively, but he + his tyrant guard can definitely make their points back occasionally, and he does give you a synapse nexus that is very powerful, and a ton of board control. He is overcosted for sure, but at 1500 points I usually run Swarmy + 2 Guard for 385. That is a lot less than the 480 points that it would cost me for 2 dakka flyrants, plus, if I do bring dakka flyrants it means I have to add another midfield synapse choice. A minimum of 100 points for warriors. Now 2 Dakka-flyrants are able to do more damage usually than swarmlord, and are still a better choice, but having such powerful board control is not without merits.
Swarmlord's nemisis is stationary gunline like Tau or Marine or Eldar. Thankfully the new Maelstrom of war missions (being superior in every way to Eternal War missions) penalize armies for not participating in the movement phase, and for sticking to a table edge. It is 6th edition thinking to dismiss swarmlord entirely as the worst unit in the codex.
Here is an added tidbit. JY2 described having trouble with drop pod marines at BAO. Running a Swarmlord list, I have never lost to drop pod marines, and with a good swarmy list, it is pretty damn hard for drop pods to even have a chance.
Overall, I've never lost a game with Swarmlord where he lived to the end of the game, and the skill to using him is figuring out how to keep him alive (both via list building and in game).
As far as worst (most overcosted) unit in the codex. It goes in this order to me.
Old One-Eye
Pyrovore
Sky-slasher swarm
Trygon
Horuspex
Deathleaper
Spore Mines
Hive Guard
Ripper Swarms
Tyrant Guard
Tyranid Prime
Trygon Prime
Genestealers
Tervigon
Harpy
Warrior
The Swarmlord Raveners
HGaunts
... Beyond this point, most units are costed approximately right with Venoms, Zoeys, Flyrants, and Dakkafexes perhaps undercosted a bit.
Spoletta wrote: Forgot to tell the general conditions for the challenge:
1850 points
Double CAD allowed.
FW models allowed.
LoW in a swarmy list is clearly a no go.
Bah... you guys are thinking small...
You did not ban formations, nor limit them, so I assume they are fair game...
Synaptic Swarm Formation: (18" synapse) 395
Prime
3 x 3 warrior
4 x Endless Swarm 1440
1835pts
That is *240* gaunts/Hgaunts on the table, 24 units, each coming back on a 4+
8 synapse units.
FLyers? Yeah, good luck with that...
Drop pods? Yeah, thats cute...
Transports? tank shock away, too bad your passengers can't get out...
The only glaring weakness I can see (there may be more) is the back pain moving all those gribblies...
Okay, actually any army with OS tank transports will be a problem. The warriors can assault them, but that entails getting to them etc etc.
It *may* be worthwhile to drop one of the Endless Swarms, to give a bunch of the HGaunts AG, so they can take out those transports.
Fairly slow? He's as slow as you can get in the game, not including spore mines or units that can't run. He's never going to be allowed to assault a Riptide or Wraithknight for example, even in a mirror match up he's zero threat to anything with wings and every other MC can shoot and kite and he's just an ineffecient use of points. Unless of course they too brought stupid models like a Dimachaeron. Even then you are probably going to lose. 4W for 150 pts is acceptable because Dakkafex is a spammable Devilplatform, he's not what you'd call a glass cannon but he does sacrifice durability for damage projection to make up for his inherit weakness. Looks to me like all versions of Stone Crusher sacrifice durability, firepower, and damage projection, to double down on tearing it up in melee. On a 4W 6" move body, completely not built for the task. I think you are right and just taking regular Fexes is better, with either AG, Devourers or both is the best options no matter what you want to achieve.
Here is an added tidbit. JY2 described having trouble with drop pod marines at BAO. Running a Swarmlord list, I have never lost to drop pod marines, and with a good swarmy list, it is pretty damn hard for drop pods to even have a chance.
Overall, I've never lost a game with Swarmlord where he lived to the end of the game, and the skill to using him is figuring out how to keep him alive (both via list building and in game).
Could you elaborate on this. I am curious how SLord helped so much against a DP list.
Fairly slow? He's as slow as you can get in the game, not including spore mines or units that can't run. He's never going to be allowed to assault a Riptide or Wraithknight for example, even in a mirror match up he's zero threat to anything with wings and every other MC can shoot and kite and he's just an ineffecient use of points. Unless of course they too brought stupid models like a Dimachaeron. Even then you are probably going to lose. 4W for 150 pts is acceptable because Dakkafex is a spammable Devilplatform, he's not what you'd call a glass cannon but he does sacrifice durability for damage projection to make up for his inherit weakness. Looks to me like all versions of Stone Crusher sacrifice durability, firepower, and damage projection, to double down on tearing it up in melee. On a 4W 6" move body, completely not built for the task. I think you are right and just taking regular Fexes is better, with either AG, Devourers or both is the best options no matter what you want to achieve.
SHUPPET wrote: Fairly slow? He's as slow as you can get in the game, not including spore mines or units that can't run. He's never going to be allowed to assault a Riptide or Wraithknight for example, even in a mirror match up he's zero threat to anything with wings and every other MC can shoot and kite
...
Um... isn't that pretty much what I said....??
coredump wrote: ...but I think anything T6 would be able to avoid CC with the fairly slow fex.
Granted, I wasn't quite as....emphatic about it. But I did say the same thing....
Spoletta wrote: Forgot to tell the general conditions for the challenge:
1850 points
Double CAD allowed.
FW models allowed.
LoW in a swarmy list is clearly a no go.
Bah... you guys are thinking small...
You did not ban formations, nor limit them, so I assume they are fair game...
Synaptic Swarm Formation: (18" synapse) 395
Prime
3 x 3 warrior
4 x Endless Swarm 1440
1835pts
That is *240* gaunts/Hgaunts on the table, 24 units, each coming back on a 4+
8 synapse units.
FLyers? Yeah, good luck with that...
Drop pods? Yeah, thats cute...
Transports? tank shock away, too bad your passengers can't get out...
The only glaring weakness I can see (there may be more) is the back pain moving all those gribblies...
Okay, actually any army with OS tank transports will be a problem. The warriors can assault them, but that entails getting to them etc etc.
It *may* be worthwhile to drop one of the Endless Swarms, to give a bunch of the HGaunts AG, so they can take out those transports.
Swap that one ES for a Wrecker, Bioblast or Living Artilery Node. All three add one more Synapse anchor and give a solid answer to OS Transports.
SHUPPET wrote: Fairly slow? He's as slow as you can get in the game, not including spore mines or units that can't run. He's never going to be allowed to assault a Riptide or Wraithknight for example, even in a mirror match up he's zero threat to anything with wings and every other MC can shoot and kite and he's just an ineffecient use of points. Unless of course they too brought stupid models like a Dimachaeron. Even then you are probably going to lose. 4W for 150 pts is acceptable because Dakkafex is a spammable Devilplatform, he's not what you'd call a glass cannon but he does sacrifice durability for damage projection to make up for his inherit weakness. Looks to me like all versions of Stone Crusher sacrifice durability, firepower, and damage projection, to double down on tearing it up in melee. On a 4W 6" move body, completely not built for the task. I think you are right and just taking regular Fexes is better, with either AG, Devourers or both is the best options no matter what you want to achieve.
I had a test game and I was frankly not impressed. They actually did reasonably well, they hung around midfield and then assaulted and killed an Imperial Knight, but just using them they felt a little awkward, because of how much slower than the rest of my army they were. If my opponent hadn't come to me, they would have done nothing. Not bad, and very fun if it fits your theme, but in a competitive sense I think that Devourers + Adrenal Glands will be top for Carnifex. I don't use the Dakkafex personally, but I recognize that it is a valuable unit for many Tyranid armies.
Here is an added tidbit. JY2 described having trouble with drop pod marines at BAO. Running a Swarmlord list, I have never lost to drop pod marines, and with a good swarmy list, it is pretty damn hard for drop pods to even have a chance.
Overall, I've never lost a game with Swarmlord where he lived to the end of the game, and the skill to using him is figuring out how to keep him alive (both via list building and in game).
Could you elaborate on this. I am curious how SLord helped so much against a DP list.
Swarmlord's main problem is speed. He is a beatstick in close combat. Drop pods have a tendancy to come to you, and if not all of the way to you, then close enough to still allow you a turn 1 charge. He can multi assault several combat squads / drop pods often which sticks him in for safety on turn two. In combat he can kill any marine I've ever faced. Mephiston or Grey Knights can give him trouble, but normal marines go down easy. He can give furious charge to MC's or Rending attackers like Genestealers, Shrikes, or raveners which makes them much better at taking out drop pods. He is usually going to get Warp Blast (Great), and/or psychic Shriek (ok) which can mess marines up.
The other key, is unlike a Flyrant, Swarmy usually isn't going down to Drop Pod Alpha strike. Taken with Tyrant Guard, and properly bubble wrapped, he is hard to kill in one round of shooting for 1/2 of a marine army. The only time I nearly lost him was in a large game when my opponent brought down 30 sternguard, and shot all of their hellfire rounds at him. 34 3+ saves even with 3 Tyrant guard can be rough. I think I had 1 wound left on swarmy, and 1 tyrant guard with 1 wound. But turn 2 saw 24 of those sternguard dead, and Swarmy locked in combat with the other 6.
Most of the time bubble wrap + drop pod scatter prevents 3 full pods from all being in rapidfire range.
Here is an added tidbit. JY2 described having trouble with drop pod marines at BAO. Running a Swarmlord list, I have never lost to drop pod marines, and with a good swarmy list, it is pretty damn hard for drop pods to even have a chance.
Overall, I've never lost a game with Swarmlord where he lived to the end of the game, and the skill to using him is figuring out how to keep him alive (both via list building and in game).
Could you elaborate on this. I am curious how SLord helped so much against a DP list.
Swarmlord's main problem is speed. He is a beatstick in close combat. Drop pods have a tendancy to come to you, and if not all of the way to you, then close enough to still allow you a turn 1 charge. He can multi assault several combat squads / drop pods often which sticks him in for safety on turn two. In combat he can kill any marine I've ever faced. Mephiston or Grey Knights can give him trouble, but normal marines go down easy. He can give furious charge to MC's or Rending attackers like Genestealers, Shrikes, or raveners which makes them much better at taking out drop pods. He is usually going to get Warp Blast (Great), and/or psychic Shriek (ok) which can mess marines up.
The other key, is unlike a Flyrant, Swarmy usually isn't going down to Drop Pod Alpha strike. Taken with Tyrant Guard, and properly bubble wrapped, he is hard to kill in one round of shooting for 1/2 of a marine army. The only time I nearly lost him was in a large game when my opponent brought down 30 sternguard, and shot all of their hellfire rounds at him. 34 3+ saves even with 3 Tyrant guard can be rough. I think I had 1 wound left on swarmy, and 1 tyrant guard with 1 wound. But turn 2 saw 24 of those sternguard dead, and Swarmy locked in combat with the other 6.
Most of the time bubble wrap + drop pod scatter prevents 3 full pods from all being in rapidfire range.
I play regularly with Swarmlord and everything you've said I have experienced as well. I play regularly against my buddies Drop Pod marines (who placed respectably at the BAO, just for some context) and have never lost Swarmlord to his army. Swarmlord will mulch marines and isn't nearly as slow as you might think. In fact, with the changes to Move Through Cover, he's never been faster. I think he works very well in a swarm-style list. A big footprint really hurts drop pod armies. It also may have something to do with Flyrant's not really being a good unit against loads of marines. Unloading on them with Devourers isn't going to get the job done in the same way CC will.
i had a big thing written up about comparing SL to a flyrant, but there's no point re-hashing this. if a slow moving ground unit is working for you, awesome. but SL only does more damage IF he can actually make combat with something other than a speedbump. flyrant starts lighting things up from turn 1, and you can take 3 pretty easily. there's really not a comparison to make here.
SHUPPET wrote: Fairly slow? He's as slow as you can get in the game, not including spore mines or units that can't run. He's never going to be allowed to assault a Riptide or Wraithknight for example, even in a mirror match up he's zero threat to anything with wings and every other MC can shoot and kite
...
Um... isn't that pretty much what I said....??
coredump wrote: ...but I think anything T6 would be able to avoid CC with the fairly slow fex.
Granted, I wasn't quite as....emphatic about it. But I did say the same thing....
Oh yeah I was fully agreeing with you!r statement and following on from it Just going into a little detail and adding a little more emphasis
@tag I meant the price of 2 naked CC tyrants. I think all the extra wounds and attacks and a harder to avoid threat bubble makes them much nicer than Swarmy, and yet still a trash option. I am of the opinion that Swarmlord is the very worst model available to Tyranids.
The swarmlord as overcosted as it is could be the missing piece for our swarmy lists together with the shroud guys, let's not dismiss him that easily but let's try to make it work. What he has to offer is pretty much what a swarmy nid is lacking:
1) Light AV, being able to give around furious charge turns your vanilla Hgaunts/Tgants/Garg into anti AV 10 rear without incurring into the heavy costs of AG and making your gribblies less attractive as bull magnets.
2) Heavy AV, things in meele with the SL and his guards tend to go down fast. This works just as well with big MCs like riptides and WK.
3) Durable 18" synapse bubble.
4) Lvl 3 psyion.
Now what are the 2 main problems of this 285 point (+ guards) guy?
1) Slow as hell, all his heavy anti AV roles and anti MC roles means jack if he can't get in melee.
2) Too easily taken down at range for it's cost.
3) Costs a lot, meaning fewer bodies on the field if you take him.
Now SL will 100% guaranteed not work in any semi serious competition if you try him in a typical nid list. Can it work in a swarm though? Let's analyze how the swarm can cover his weak points:
1) Partially. Hgaunts and gargoiles can easily tarpit things for him until he comes for the kill. This is true for MC and walkers, but an AB will not be entangled in melee.
2) A venom/malan is mandatory for him, and gribblies will guarantee a 3+ cover. Putting one of the guards into a ruin and making sure that it is the one nearest to SL will bump this to 2+ (they have MTC thanks to SL). Enough? At times yes, against Tau markerlights no. As an added bonus though we have that having many bodies on the field protects you from many alpha strike lists and gives a good degree of protection against fliers.
3) Ok this is easily covered, we are talking 100+ bodies on the field here.
So, is this enough for SL to be a good addition to a swarmy list? Let's discuss and if someone has the chance then batrep.
To those who think the Swarmlord is trash: Play him. I understand it feels wrong to pay 285pts for a non flying MC, but just hold your nose and do it. Everyone who actually uses him keeps saying he has value on the battlefield, maybe they're not hallucinating the results that they're seeing in their games...
I played swarmlord in a competitive enviroment using the 5th book during 6th. When he had the ability to get IA/WS and forced rerolls on invulns he was THE cc beast. Now he's gone from ter 1 powerhouse to overpriced beatstick. Realistically the Dima has more damage output, and with no way to pick up EW, any model with EW and a decent invuln can really feth up his day, god help you versus anything with ID.
I would rather spend the 285 (+guard tax) on FC for 80 HG in a swarm list so multiple units can use it since a big blob loses the bonus if they multiassault.
There is very little reason to take him over anything, really. For 215 you can get a walking tyrant with HC and regen. Not even a competitive choice, but i'd wager if both have 2/3 guards the tyrant does much more over the game. Plus you can use the strategic table and the formation to keep an 18" synapse.
Traceoftoxin wrote: I played swarmlord in a competitive enviroment using the 5th book during 6th. When he had the ability to get IA/WS and forced rerolls on invulns he was THE cc beast. Now he's gone from ter 1 powerhouse to overpriced beatstick. Realistically the Dima has more damage output, and with no way to pick up EW, any model with EW and a decent invuln can really feth up his day, god help you versus anything with ID.
I would rather spend the 285 (+guard tax) on FC for 80 HG in a swarm list so multiple units can use it since a big blob loses the bonus if they multiassault.
There is very little reason to take him over anything, really. For 215 you can get a walking tyrant with HC and regen. Not even a competitive choice, but i'd wager if both have 2/3 guards the tyrant does much more over the game. Plus you can use the strategic table and the formation to keep an 18" synapse.
In a typical list there is 0 reasons to take him, i agree. Though we are trying to see him in a different role, not as a pure beatstick, but a support beatstick in a peculiar list. Not saying that it works, just that i wouldn't write him off immediately.
Yeah, the fact that even random trash like Regen CC Tyrants can give him a run for his points shows how janky the Swarmlord actually is. Dima is farrrr better than him. And Dima is the second worst model we have available to us.
No matter what you expect from the Swarmlord, the same amount of points in something else will do it better. He's just that overcosted. I'd rather 20 Genestealers tbh.
Also, to void wraith, everyone I know to have played the Swarmlord in 6E says he's junk. I don't personally need to go out and lose with the model to confirm this especially if I can't see any explanation as to how he isn't bad. He was DECENT in 6th. But that was a different game, we had a different dex, and he was a different model.
gigasnail wrote: i had a big thing written up about comparing SL to a flyrant, but there's no point re-hashing this. if a slow moving ground unit is working for you, awesome. but SL only does more damage IF he can actually make combat with something other than a speedbump. flyrant starts lighting things up from turn 1, and you can take 3 pretty easily. there's really not a comparison to make here.
I think this represents a key misunderstanding. Swarmlord will never kill as much stuff as a Dakka Flyrant, but Swarmlord is better support, and exerts better board control. If all games were kill points, then Swarmlord would be as bad as you suggest. But in modern 40k with the wonderful Maelstrom missions, Swarmlord can help win the game. For me Winning the Game is more important than Killing my opponent's models.
The reason Swarmlord is worth the additional 85 points from the Dima is he is a Mastery Level 3 Psycher with Synapse, and can grant 1 unit furious charge or preferred enemy. That is worth 85 points to everyone. The reason he is still questionable is 1) the Dima is questionable for the points, 2) If he dies he cripples your army in a way that losing the Dima does not.
Coming from someone who played tournaments with the SL in 6th ed I have to say that there are some misconceptions about the unit.
I played the SL with 2 Tyrant guards. After facing several difficult matchups, I was pleasantly surprised that he was able to face 2 FULL rounds of shooting from a White Scars grav spam bike list. Given I was able to roll +3 for Iron arm and Endurance on him IN ADDITION to having him in the center ruin terrain. So my ~400 point unit was able to absorb ~3700 points worth (1850 x 2 rounds) of shooting.
All that aside, I did lose the game promptly after that because I didn't have the staying power to weather that for the rest of the game.
To add just another personal anecdote: I was match up against a Black Templar list in the same tournament and this match was where I realized that the SL wasn't tournament worthy. The SL lost in combat to a Smashfether Chapter master on a bike. Even with +2-3 Iron arm.
The biggest problem I have with the SL is that he doesn't have Eternal warrior. He NEEDS eternal warrior to be effective. To be honest, the invuln he has is next to useless. He should have FnP instead. IF the SL had a native 4+ FnP at the beginning of the game he'd be much more valuable. Who cares if he's slow. He still affects the game, in every game I play.
Moving from 6th edition to 7th edition: He is truly useless. Losing the forced reroll of successful invulns, going up in points, psychic phase making it much more difficult to pass psychic tests (and needing more psychic dice than the SL can bring itself), taking the chance of periling and completely losing your SL, and the fact that he's lost Biomancy access are just several of the reasons the SL isn't being played in the competitive scene.
If you can honestly say that the Furious charge or Preferred enemy buffs he can dole out outweigh the negative aspects I just listed, you're delusional.
DLAB infiltrates up, Mieotic Spores lock in on that for deep strike, hopefully distracts enough for a turn or two for me to move the rest of the army up and start the killing. Mal are there for outside tervigon synapse on the gants. Theory seems solid at least.
Spoletta wrote: So we want to write it off? Would have liked some batrep with it, but i guess we can move on, maybe i'll try him one of these days.
Back to swarm lists without their lord then.
He's just a point sink. If it were in a strictly fluffy game, for example if an eldar player took Avatar or some other similar handicap then thats all fine and dandy. I still bring Trygons to fluffy games because thats my favorite model despite it being overcosted and lackluster. But in a real game? Theres just no logic to taking him. I'd even take a reaper flyrant with electroshock grubs zooming around before him.
tag8833 wrote: I've got a question about the Stone Crusher Carnifex. If it has Wrecker Claws does it have 2 sets of Close combat weapons, and thus an extra attack?
What if it has Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail?
The way I read it the "Carapace Chitin-rams" are the 2nd set of Close combat weapons?
Sadly, no. Chitin-rams are just a piece of wargear that gives special affects to HOW, the SCFex only has a single CC weapon and hence, no extra attack.
While that looks like a fun list to run, I'm not sure if 69 models at 2000 points can really be called a "swarm". Bit too much in the way of mid-sized support bugs and not enough gribblies.
Anyway, I'd be inclined to say a "competitive" swarm list would probably end up incorporating the Skyblight formation in some way. Not so much for the flying monsters, but rather for the ability to upgrade Gargoyles with Objective Secured and Without Number.
Just as a quick example:
---------------------------------
HQ: 1x Tyranid Prime with Rending Claws
HQ: 1x Tyranid Prime with Rending Claws
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands (for the ability to glance rear-armor 10 vehicles)
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
Formation: Skyblight
1x Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
1x Hive Crone
2x Harpies with Twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon (personal preference - Flesh Hooks on the Primes would also work)
20x Gargoyles
20x Gargoyles
20x Gargoyles
Total: 1850
---------------------------------
This provides 140 fast-moving, objective secured bodies at 1850. I imagine it isn't the most optimized list possible, but still... The main strength of Tyranid fodder creatures is that they can effectively deny large chunks of the board, either by literally taking up space or by threat of assault (hence the Adrenal Glands - no vehicle with rear-armor 10 is going to put itself anywhere near those Hormagaunts), for relatively low individual unit cost. Adding Objective Secured to everything further helps shut down portions of the board and forces the opponent to deal with them.
@Strat_N8, I wouldnt recommend the Tyranid Primes ever, the new codex made them 45pts (45pts!!!!) more expensive for no upgrade at all, but if you insist on them to be in a team of Hormagaunt I would recommend the AG to give him fleet so he doesnt remove fleet from the hormagaunts team he is in (the full team needs to have fleet to benefit from it).
I would just go for Malanthropes to give synapse and on top of that shrouding. A flyrant is better than 2 primes any day of the week. It could allow for flanking Devilgaunts with hive commander which is a nice swarmy and sneaky thing to do.
I do like the idea of Skyblight for a swarm list for the same reason you mentionned
While that looks like a fun list to run, I'm not sure if 69 models at 2000 points can really be called a "swarm". Bit too much in the way of mid-sized support bugs and not enough gribblies.
Anyway, I'd be inclined to say a "competitive" swarm list would probably end up incorporating the Skyblight formation in some way. Not so much for the flying monsters, but rather for the ability to upgrade Gargoyles with Objective Secured and Without Number.
Just as a quick example:
---------------------------------
HQ: 1x Tyranid Prime with Rending Claws
HQ: 1x Tyranid Prime with Rending Claws
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands (for the ability to glance rear-armor 10 vehicles)
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
TROOPS: 20x Hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands
Formation: Skyblight
1x Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2x Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
1x Hive Crone
2x Harpies with Twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon (personal preference - Flesh Hooks on the Primes would also work)
20x Gargoyles
20x Gargoyles
20x Gargoyles
Total: 1850
---------------------------------
This provides 140 fast-moving, objective secured bodies at 1850. I imagine it isn't the most optimized list possible, but still... The main strength of Tyranid fodder creatures is that they can effectively deny large chunks of the board, either by literally taking up space or by threat of assault (hence the Adrenal Glands - no vehicle with rear-armor 10 is going to put itself anywhere near those Hormagaunts), for relatively low individual unit cost. Adding Objective Secured to everything further helps shut down portions of the board and forces the opponent to deal with them.
I like it but why not have a Tervigon as HQ you haven't used a Second CAD so don't need two HQs. Tervigon can just sit back and throw out more troops whilst the rest of your list presses hard.
gigasnail wrote: i had a big thing written up about comparing SL to a flyrant, but there's no point re-hashing this. if a slow moving ground unit is working for you, awesome. but SL only does more damage IF he can actually make combat with something other than a speedbump. flyrant starts lighting things up from turn 1, and you can take 3 pretty easily. there's really not a comparison to make here.
I think this represents a key misunderstanding. Swarmlord will never kill as much stuff as a Dakka Flyrant, but Swarmlord is better support, and exerts better board control. If all games were kill points, then Swarmlord would be as bad as you suggest. But in modern 40k with the wonderful Maelstrom missions, Swarmlord can help win the game. For me Winning the Game is more important than Killing my opponent's models.
The reason Swarmlord is worth the additional 85 points from the Dima is he is a Mastery Level 3 Psycher with Synapse, and can grant 1 unit furious charge or preferred enemy. That is worth 85 points to everyone. The reason he is still questionable is 1) the Dima is questionable for the points, 2) If he dies he cripples your army in a way that losing the Dima does not.
I can't really agree with these statements. SL handing out buffs to one unit per turn isn't worth the 350-400 points he's into you for after the obligatory guard. He is easily killed, contributes little and is a large chunk of points for what is basically an area denial unit. Over running the opponent's troops with dakkafex fexes, gargs, and flyrants and just taking the objectives is going to work better even in maelstrom than running SL.
While that looks like a fun list to run, I'm not sure if 69 models at 2000 points can really be called a "swarm". Bit too much in the way of mid-sized support bugs and not enough gribblies.
Was Kinda hoping the Tervigon would be able to pump out good numbers o gribblies, but yeah youre prolly right I JUST started building a Nid force so im just theorizing here cause I have zero play time with them.
As a side note, I havent really seen (that I can remember) much discussion on the Mieotic Spores ITT and was kind of curious how everyone was looking at them? seems like out FA options are fairly weak overall (except the gargs in SB) but for their price they seem like a nice little option to mess with the enemy right off the bat. Not necessarily the most destructive force by any means, but enough to maybe divert some fire their direction?
kryczek wrote: pinecone77, how did you get on with the endless swarm backed up with 2 trygons. Any luck? I'm thinkin of trying it.
Ps nice list, wish i had another tyrant and mawloc.
Sadly, my health issues make it impossible for me to game...(since oct of last year ) So I have not had a chance to try it...it was built for 6th ed...I don't know if it has the same "mojo" now, since "Objective secured" became such a "thing". If I can improve enough, I plan on trying my "Enhanced" version (upgrades on the Troops). Thanx for asking.
While that looks like a fun list to run, I'm not sure if 69 models at 2000 points can really be called a "swarm". Bit too much in the way of mid-sized support bugs and not enough gribblies.
Was Kinda hoping the Tervigon would be able to pump out good numbers o gribblies, but yeah youre prolly right I JUST started building a Nid force so im just theorizing here cause I have zero play time with them.
As a side note, I havent really seen (that I can remember) much discussion on the Mieotic Spores ITT and was kind of curious how everyone was looking at them? seems like out FA options are fairly weak overall (except the gargs in SB) but for their price they seem like a nice little option to mess with the enemy right off the bat. Not necessarily the most destructive force by any means, but enough to maybe divert some fire their direction?
Unfortunately the last incarnation of the meiotic spores is really really bad. I don't know how they could do it so bad, it even goes against their description. They are described as high altitude mines, but the new rules are only low altitude, they are described as packing enough punch to hurt flyers, but they lost armourbane and are now simply S5. They got bumped in cost and no longer drop spore mines when they detonate, they do only when being shot. They no longer explode upon enemies like our good old spore mines do, they instead have to hurl themselves on the enemy with a BS0 scattering. All the spores in a unit must act as a unit, they no longer operate as single models...
Thank you for bringing this up now so we can all agree on something.
Swarmlord is not the worst nid model, that role falls to meiotic spores.
Spoletta wrote: Unfortunately the last incarnation of the meiotic spores is really really bad. I don't know how they could do it so bad, it even goes against their description. They are described as high altitude mines, but the new rules are only low altitude, they are described as packing enough punch to hurt flyers, but they lost armourbane and are now simply S5. They got bumped in cost and no longer drop spore mines when they detonate, they do only when being shot. They no longer explode upon enemies like our good old spore mines do, they instead have to hurl themselves on the enemy with a BS0 scattering. All the spores in a unit must act as a unit, they no longer operate as single models...
Thank you for bringing this up now so we can all agree on something.
Swarmlord is not the worst nid model, that role falls to meiotic spores.
Swarmlord isn't just some horrible TMC, hes also, much like his ability says, the synaptic linchpin of your army. Just make sure you roll onslaught and suddenly hes fairly invincible, least he has been in my meta. Honestly, who has time to shoot at one guy in the back when he has a horde of over a hundred gribblies running down his throat?
Also, to discuss the Meiotic Spores and last codex Spore Mines...I am sad that the rules changed, but also glad, considering how powerful those little Spore Mines were when spammed. Nothing ever said you had to deploy them in unit coherency....and max spore mines certainly clogged up a nice chunk of the board for pennies. As for the Meiotic, it seems to me that you really only took them because they had explosives...in explosives. While they look almost pointless against many of the mainline durable flyers, aren't there quite a few fragile ones it should still have plenty of damage to crack open?
For the spores, the way I was looking at them is a 90 point distraction. If they get shot, they drop mines. If they scatter too far to hit anything, they get mines. If they hit, the unit they hit gets counted as moving through difficult terrain next turn (not a huge deal but a minor bonus) And each one can target a separate unit so you can slow down people for a turn whilst your guys get in range. Just figured it would be a neat combo with the DLAB, not something i would really take otherwise
Eldercaveman wrote: I like it but why not have a Tervigon as HQ you haven't used a Second CAD so don't need two HQs. Tervigon can just sit back and throw out more troops whilst the rest of your list presses hard.
Two reasons. First is really just threat saturation. If you throw a Tervigon in the list it ends up being the only monstrous creature on the ground, making it target priority #1 for any high-powered enemy shooting which would be "wasted" on gaunts and would (usually) have difficulty hitting the FMC's. The Tyranid Primes, while overpriced, offer better threat saturation since the entirety of the ground force with them included has one consistent profile across the board (T3 + a lot of wounds).
The second major problem with a Tervigon is that it leaves the list with two fairly fragile sources of synapse (baring alternations that might cut into body-count), both of which are also high on the opponent's target priority list due to their other functions. The Primes again offer a more durable synapse anchor for the army by virtue of their being able to hide amongst the swarm units (jumping from unit to unit as their brood is depleted) and their being comparatively non-threatening.
fartherthanfar wrote: @Strat_N8, I wouldnt recommend the Tyranid Primes ever, the new codex made them 45pts (45pts!!!!) more expensive for no upgrade at all.
I agree the Prime is vastly over-priced. However, I think in a swarm list they are a necessary evil. In a more typical combined-arms or nidzilla list the amount of ground-pounding monsters helps keep synapse nodes safe by virtue of other pressing targets. In a swarm list, the synapse nodes become a higher priority target since it is both comparatively easier to wipe out a handful of T4 or T6 wounds than 20+ T3 wounds and swarm units are generally going to be inert for a turn without synapse to keep instinctive behavior in check. The Primes solve this problem by hiding in the swarm units themselves, forcing the opponent to direct their fire against the fodder creatures.
A flyrant is better than 2 primes any day of the week. It could allow for flanking Devilgaunts with hive commander which is a nice swarmy and sneaky thing to do.
Agreed, but just because it is a better unit overall doesn't mean it is necessarily a better unit for the list in question. The main thing the swarm list needs is synapse coverage to keep things operating. A pair of flyrants could do this role, but it limits their movement and it makes them even bigger targets than they already are. The two Primes + skyblight flyrant offer better overall synapse coverage and threat saturation, since the opponent is now forced to target fodder units to neutralize synapse rather than being able to pick it off by itself and the Tyrant is free to go where it pleases.
Edit: After going through my collection, I'm just a Harpy short of being able to run the aforementioned list... Might pick one up on payday and try the list out at our league to see how it works in practice.
Swarmlord isn't just some horrible TMC, hes also, much like his ability says, the synaptic linchpin of your army. Just make sure you roll onslaught and suddenly hes fairly invincible, least he has been in my meta. Honestly, who has time to shoot at one guy in the back when he has a horde of over a hundred gribblies running down his throat?
Also, to discuss the Meiotic Spores and last codex Spore Mines...I am sad that the rules changed, but also glad, considering how powerful those little Spore Mines were when spammed. Nothing ever said you had to deploy them in unit coherency....and max spore mines certainly clogged up a nice chunk of the board for pennies. As for the Meiotic, it seems to me that you really only took them because they had explosives...in explosives. While they look almost pointless against many of the mainline durable flyers, aren't there quite a few fragile ones it should still have plenty of damage to crack open?
They can't even hit flyers any more, that's how bad they were represented.
That spore is pretty terrible. Defender a contender actually. I'll agree tis worse than the Dima. Possibly not Swarmlord level since it doesn't cost you just under 300 pts + HG tax + Zope tax even though his role is meant to be Synapse. Points dedicated to fail units alone, I'd say I stand a better chance of winning with a list with Spores in it than a list with Swarmlord in it, making the Swarmy worse to me. Taken in even amount of points though, yeah that Spore is absolute trash lol
SHUPPET wrote: That spore is pretty terrible. Defender a contender actually. I'll agree tis worse than the Dima. Possibly not Swarmlord level since it doesn't cost you just under 300 pts + HG tax + Zope tax even though his role is meant to be Synapse. Points dedicated to fail units alone, I'd say I stand a better chance of winning with a list with Spores in it than a list with Swarmlord in it, making the Swarmy worse to me. Taken in even amount of points though, yeah that Spore is absolute trash lol
Shuppet could you explain why to me? Like i said never actually played with Nids (yet) but i figured the theory was solid as a cheap distraction turn 1? Basically no matter what happens they are dealing some sort of damage so it cant be all bad for 45pts?
I think he was saying it allows you to push more aggression out of a large unit of Termagants or something, making Swarmlord less likely to get shot at
But A it's completely subjective as you ahould never rely on your opponent to play like a potato B even a Devilgants unit is not that threatening just by adding average 3-4" move speed C it's attracting a completely different type of hostile fire, being massed T3 as opposed to Swarmlorda focused T6, and D you need to do more than avoid marginal amounts fire with Swarmlord to make him suddenly worth his points back, as it stands he could probably have a permanent Invisibility buff and still not be worth the points. Needs wings, especially at the current cost it's ridiculous he doent have them.
That thing dies to a sneeze, then drops about 2 mines that die to overwatch. It isn't a distraction, it is giving a juicy target to models that wouldn't be doing anything turn 1. No, for the cost of a venom i expect much more, and i'm a big fan of spore mines.
PS not saying wings would fix the Swarmlord he'd still be an overpriced CC Flyrant paying large amounts for a bunch of mediocre special rules. But damn, it'd be a start at least!
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Spoletta wrote: That thing dies to a sneeze, then drops about 2 mines that die to overwatch. It isn't a distraction, it is giving a juicy target to models that wouldn't be doing anything turn 1. No, for the cost of a venom i expect much more, and i'm a big fan of spore mines.
Exactly this, I was typing a response and was even going to make the same mention of Venomthrope. That spore has less chance of making it's points back than even a Pyrovore or a Dima. It seems like excellent waste of points. Wouldn't quite say it's Swarmlord level, but just below.
See thats the whole reason I was looking at them. Any shooting they direct at the spores isnt being directed at my other units right? I know for shorter range armies its not as big a bonus but what about for, say, Tau whose regular gun can still reach out and touch you? I'm just trying to fully understand why they are considered below even dimey and just barely above Swarmlord?
Instead of deflecting fire from useful units, just buy more useful units. Because for the price of 3 of then you can have a max size unit of just about anything in the dex. And also as pointed out it's often unlikely to deflect any shooting probly just eat the shots of everything not in range turn 1.
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KurtAngle2 wrote: What he needs is a 4++ ALL THE TIME, not just Melee
This, wings, and a point reduction. And assault grenades. Then he's usable.
Ok fair enough, but out of curiosity would they work along with the DLAB like i originally had in my list? Just to saturate the area with units or would it still be better off moving the points to gribblies?
EDIT: Please be advised I am not at all trying to argue with you guys, just trying to invalidate my inexperienced theories by taking advice from the way more experienced players
SHUPPET wrote: Instead of deflecting fire from useful units, just buy more useful units. Because for the price of 3 of then you can have a max size unit of just about anything in the dex. And also as pointed out it's often unlikely to deflect any shooting probly just eat the shots of everything not in range turn 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote: What he needs is a 4++ ALL THE TIME, not just Melee
This, wings, and a point reduction. And assault grenades. Then he's usable.
I'd actually be fine with just lvl 4 and access to all 7 powers.
Getting an 1850 Double CAD practice game in tomorrow for Mechanicon against a SM Bike net list, Ravenwing.
Taking
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Mawloc
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Carnifex w/Dev
Now that seems like a solid list, however, I do have a Hive Tyrant here I was going to paint as Swarmlord for the next painting competition. I COULD just give him wings and devourers, paint him up and run quad Tyrant like so:
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope (OR two Venoms as I have the 5 extra to do so)
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Mawloc
So I gain the longer living Flyrant but lose the vehicle destroying Fex. Also losing a malanthrope means Carnifexes could go crazy, but then again I could cast dominion often and cross flight patterns to ensure synapse.
3 Tyrants is already cheese, 4 isnt any more or less. Whats everyone think?
SHUPPET wrote: Instead of deflecting fire from useful units, just buy more useful units. Because for the price of 3 of then you can have a max size unit of just about anything in the dex.
SHUPPET wrote: That spore is pretty terrible. Defender a contender actually. I'll agree tis worse than the Dima. Possibly not Swarmlord level since it doesn't cost you just under 300 pts + HG tax + Zope tax even though his role is meant to be Synapse. Points dedicated to fail units alone, I'd say I stand a better chance of winning with a list with Spores in it than a list with Swarmlord in it, making the Swarmy worse to me. Taken in even amount of points though, yeah that Spore is absolute trash lol
SHUPPET wrote: 3 Makanthropes and a bastion seems like a bit of overkill. That's 3 Mawlocs worth of points spent securing a two point cover bonus.
Why do you continue to talk bad about the Dima? You could have easily said this unit is one of the worst units in the codex. Instead you throw salt in a wound which potentially could start another civil war, do you not see that as an insult to some? I dont want to sound harsh but it seems that you are unable to see the usefullness of units in the codex and whats worse you quickly bash any new ideas as you can see from your last few quotes and this is only the last 3 pages. Are you aware that according to you there are 2 maybe 3 list you can play when using nids? I have zero interest in your tactica about tyranids because you think everything outside of a few units suck.
I have one question for all players which is better the player who recognizes potential in a unit or the one who cannot see any use at all in a unit?
Getting an 1850 Double CAD practice game in tomorrow for Mechanicon against a SM Bike net list, Ravenwing.
Taking
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Mawloc
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Carnifex w/Dev
Now that seems like a solid list, however, I do have a Hive Tyrant here I was going to paint as Swarmlord for the next painting competition. I COULD just give him wings and devourers, paint him up and run quad Tyrant like so:
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope (OR two Venoms as I have the 5 extra to do so)
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Mawloc
So I gain the longer living Flyrant but lose the vehicle destroying Fex. Also losing a malanthrope means Carnifexes could go crazy, but then again I could cast dominion often and cross flight patterns to ensure synapse.
3 Tyrants is already cheese, 4 isnt any more or less. Whats everyone think?
There is no doubt that 4 tyrants will do work. It is also one of the main builds that the folks against dual CAD will point too as the reason to limit them. Is what it is though.
I think you need to stick with the malanthrope -- its synapse that can babysit the carnifexes while the tyrants rome ahead.
Also is mechanicon allowing FW? East Coast seems so against it so its surprising.
I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.
At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.
So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.
At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.
So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?
If you're running more than one, keep them in a brood with one with a flail. If a tarpit makes a beeline for your brood put the flail on that side.
SHUPPET wrote: Instead of deflecting fire from useful units, just buy more useful units. Because for the price of 3 of then you can have a max size unit of just about anything in the dex.
SHUPPET wrote: That spore is pretty terrible. Defender a contender actually. I'll agree tis worse than the Dima. Possibly not Swarmlord level since it doesn't cost you just under 300 pts + HG tax + Zope tax even though his role is meant to be Synapse. Points dedicated to fail units alone, I'd say I stand a better chance of winning with a list with Spores in it than a list with Swarmlord in it, making the Swarmy worse to me. Taken in even amount of points though, yeah that Spore is absolute trash lol
SHUPPET wrote: 3 Makanthropes and a bastion seems like a bit of overkill. That's 3 Mawlocs worth of points spent securing a two point cover bonus.
Why do you continue to talk bad about the Dima? You could have easily said this unit is one of the worst units in the codex. Instead you throw salt in a wound which potentially could start another civil war, do you not see that as an insult to some? I dont want to sound harsh but it seems that you are unable to see the usefullness of units in the codex and whats worse you quickly bash any new ideas as you can see from your last few quotes and this is only the last 3 pages. Are you aware that according to you there are 2 maybe 3 list you can play when using nids? I have zero interest in your tactica about tyranids because you think everything outside of a few units suck.
80% of what you quoted is completely unrelated to your point and are separate statements/questions about the Malanthrope/Spore. The other part is me giving my opinion on the Hierarchy of trash for our army. I can back up everything I say with logic. Or what I'm not allowed to say bad units are bad anymore? None of what I say is at all relevant to how you want to play the codex, what you WANT the units to do means nothing to me, my posts are honest statements about what they can do. And no, there is far far FARRRR more than 3 sensible lists, that's you pushing your mid founded conclusion on to me. On top of that my post is in no way directed to you, so if Tactica that doesn't involve recognising subpar units doesn't interest you than by all means don't respond, my Swarmlord statements are in absolutely no way directed to you.
I have one question for all players which is better the player who recognizes potential in a unit or the one who cannot see any use at all in a unit?
Oh nice, insinuations that I'm a worse player than you. The fact is I DO recognise the potential in ALL units, and some have more of it than others. When I happen to be wrong about if I admit it. Throwing your hands in the air at me for being a realist isn't going to change how well a unit performs, how about sharing the logic behind your opinions and maybe convincing people otherwise, instead of just being that guy with zero games as Tyranid whose motto is "every unit in the dex has it's role" telling people not to play Nids competitively by pretending that crap tier units don't exist.
And in response to the question, the answer is neither: the best player is the one with an honest open-minded response to each unit, who is capable of using unbiased judgement to recognise both the best and worse units.
That's enough--be polite to each other and objective about the discussion. A couple of users within this thread are starting to cross the line from 'spirited debate' to outright rudeness.
Getting an 1850 Double CAD practice game in tomorrow for Mechanicon against a SM Bike net list, Ravenwing.
Taking
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Mawloc
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Carnifex w/Dev
Now that seems like a solid list, however, I do have a Hive Tyrant here I was going to paint as Swarmlord for the next painting competition. I COULD just give him wings and devourers, paint him up and run quad Tyrant like so:
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Malanthrope (OR two Venoms as I have the 5 extra to do so)
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Carnifex w/Dev and Adrenals
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Flyrant w/dev and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper w/DS Mawloc
So I gain the longer living Flyrant but lose the vehicle destroying Fex. Also losing a malanthrope means Carnifexes could go crazy, but then again I could cast dominion often and cross flight patterns to ensure synapse.
3 Tyrants is already cheese, 4 isnt any more or less. Whats everyone think?
There is no doubt that 4 tyrants will do work. It is also one of the main builds that the folks against dual CAD will point too as the reason to limit them. Is what it is though.
I think you need to stick with the malanthrope -- its synapse that can babysit the carnifexes while the tyrants rome ahead.
Also is mechanicon allowing FW? East Coast seems so against it so its surprising.
This list seems extremely strong, with 84 TL S6 shots and the Mawloc blast! I predict you will put a much more hurt on the Ravenwing than he does to you.
Seems strong, but is there any other option than spamming 4 flyrants these days??Its almost like the Tervigon days in 5th and the beginning of 6th edition.
I am going to test out a 1850-2500 point list tomorrow. I will post my list and results vs Eldar and Am tomorrow night. I just really do not want to spam tyrants with wings to have to win a game or a tournament. There has to be a different way.
Other than that the list is really strong; it should have great success, but if those 1's and 2's happen to flood your board it could be a really rough day for you with relatively nothing to back up your list.
Oh definitely, 4 Flyrants will pay off some games but not others, its definitely not the only option. I'd say no more or less than 2 is the standard, unless doubling down for 4. Against Marines its going to be nice. Flyrants are very expensive, and aside from diminishing returns for Psykers, you generally also have your Synapse fairly well covered after 2 unless you are Swooping max range for cross field aggression, which is probably more doable with 4. I don't think Flyrants are the spammable centre-piece of Nids, that description is definitely more applicable to Dakkafex. The question of whether spamming multiple Fexes is the only competitive option is probably a better one, and although I think the answer is no, its probably one of the better ones.'
By 1's and 2's do you mean rolls? Because they will hurt every list but far less one with Flyrants, with BS4 Twin-linked being the most reliable shooting in the dex per model, even if very costly.
EDIT: have no idea how this double posted, especially considering I only clicked submit once, and Dakka is meant to auto-add subsequent posts to the last one regardless :S
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.
At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.
So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?
I looked at the Crusher fexes properly and realised that for all their Amazing...
They -have- to get the charge. There is no other option for them. At one less base attack than a normal carnifex with no second melee weapon they are effectively two attacks down from a base Carnifex. However, AP2 HoW hits are clearly where it is at. But more than anything else its about positioning - you're really going to have no choice but to go for vehicles or small elite units (if you see a unit of Terminators without Storm Shields...rejoice!).
The thing with the Bio-Flail is the fact it comes with instant death. The Sweep attack is a nice option but against a big enough tarpit really won't be that effective to clear away a tarpit whereas the Instant Death will help with other annoying troublesome units that we will come across - looking at Wraithknights, Dreadknights, Wraithlords or other MCs in particular.
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.
At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.
So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?
I looked at the Crusher fexes properly and realised that for all their Amazing...
They -have- to get the charge. There is no other option for them. At one less base attack than a normal carnifex with no second melee weapon they are effectively two attacks down from a base Carnifex. However, AP2 HoW hits are clearly where it is at. But more than anything else its about positioning - you're really going to have no choice but to go for vehicles or small elite units (if you see a unit of Terminators without Storm Shields...rejoice!).
The thing with the Bio-Flail is the fact it comes with instant death. The Sweep attack is a nice option but against a big enough tarpit really won't be that effective to clear away a tarpit whereas the Instant Death will help with other annoying troublesome units that we will come across - looking at Wraithknights, Dreadknights, Wraithlords or other MCs in particular.
Yeah, this is what I was thinking. I will definitely end up with a few Stonecrushers, but Bio-Flails are just so much more versatile. The only times I can see the Claws being better are against enemy Walkers (which may charge you), or large fortifications. For everything else the combination of a huge number of attacks from Sweep and ID should carry you through.
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering adding some Stone Crusher Carnifexes to my army for variety.
At first glance, I was thinking that Wrecker Claws was the way to go. 15 points cheaper and the sunder special rule is great. However, the more I think about it, the more I'm concerned that Tarpitting it may be way, way, way too easy. 5 Gaunts could Tarpit it for the entire game.
So, I'm taking a second look at the Wrecker Claw + Bio-Flail load out. It seems like too much to spend to avoid tarpits. Is there anyone who can make a case for the Bio-flail being the better wargear choice?
I looked at the Crusher fexes properly and realised that for all their Amazing...
They -have- to get the charge. There is no other option for them. At one less base attack than a normal carnifex with no second melee weapon they are effectively two attacks down from a base Carnifex. However, AP2 HoW hits are clearly where it is at. But more than anything else its about positioning - you're really going to have no choice but to go for vehicles or small elite units (if you see a unit of Terminators without Storm Shields...rejoice!).
The thing with the Bio-Flail is the fact it comes with instant death. The Sweep attack is a nice option but against a big enough tarpit really won't be that effective to clear away a tarpit whereas the Instant Death will help with other annoying troublesome units that we will come across - looking at Wraithknights, Dreadknights, Wraithlords or other MCs in particular.
You make a very convincing case. That is exactly what I was looking for. I think I will get the bits for 1 SC with Bio-Flail and 1 SC with Wrecker Claws. That way I could run one of each in a squad. They don't seem like they would fit in my TAC list, but I think I can find uses for them when facing specific opponents. Like Land Raider spam.
I watched a Land Raider spam Blood angles go against an I.G. armored company last night. The I.G. Fired a demolisher cannon at a Land Raider first turn. It scatted and hit both. 2 Pens, 2 failed 5+ covers, 2 Explode results. It did not go well for the Land Raider Spam.
So I took my 4 Flyrants of the Apocalypse against an all bike Ravenwing 1850 tourney army for my first practice game. It did include the +2 cover boosting vehicle whos name I currently cant remember, so he was jinking with two ups on his bikes quite often. He also rolled invisibility and dominate, whereas I got all onslaught, paroxysm and Horror...8 chances to get catalyst to no avail.
I rolled master of ambush and pushed two fex with the malanthrope up with the warlord, with everyone else behind to grab the malan's cover save. He made his scout moves and then SEIZED.
So worst case scenario of bike alpha strike. When that turn was over I had lost my warlord, a fex, a wound on a tyrant who jinked, and another fex was reduced to one. But from there I played smart and fried to the vehicle, and pulled my fexes back to force him into my deployment zone while my fliers went the other way. Malanthrope stuck with the fexes.
I selected my targets well, jinked at the right times and picked apart his army slowly but surely despite his FNP rolls being insane. Malanthrope got locked into combat and kicked extreme ass, lasting several rounds even with him hitting and running in and out of combat and killed a ton of bikers. Mawloc hit once, in the middle of a sea of bikers, she was fantastic and would mishap off to later secure an objective. Even my rippers did a great job holding their objectives and tarpitting.
His list is no joke and most everyone thought the game would be over by turn 3 after his first turn, but it was swung just with three Tyrants having great positioning. It needs practicing but the 4 Tyrants/Dakkafex/Ripper/Mawloc/Malanthrope team is probably what Ill take to Mechanicon.
Iechine wrote: So I took my 4 Flyrants of the Apocalypse against an all bike Ravenwing 1850 tourney army for my first practice game. It did include the +2 cover boosting vehicle whos name I currently cant remember, so he was jinking with two ups on his bikes quite often. He also rolled invisibility and dominate, whereas I got all onslaught, paroxysm and Horror...8 chances to get catalyst to no avail.
I rolled master of ambush and pushed two fex with the malanthrope up with the warlord, with everyone else behind to grab the malan's cover save. He made his scout moves and then SEIZED.
So worst case scenario of bike alpha strike. When that turn was over I had lost my warlord, a fex, a wound on a tyrant who jinked, and another fex was reduced to one. But from there I played smart and fried to the vehicle, and pulled my fexes back to force him into my deployment zone while my fliers went the other way. Malanthrope stuck with the fexes.
I selected my targets well, jinked at the right times and picked apart his army slowly but surely despite his FNP rolls being insane. Malanthrope got locked into combat and kicked extreme ass, lasting several rounds even with him hitting and running in and out of combat and killed a ton of bikers. Mawloc hit once, in the middle of a sea of bikers, she was fantastic and would mishap off to later secure an objective. Even my rippers did a great job holding their objectives and tarpitting.
His list is no joke and most everyone thought the game would be over by turn 3 after his first turn, but it was swung just with three Tyrants having great positioning. It needs practicing but the 4 Tyrants/Dakkafex/Ripper/Mawloc/Malanthrope team is probably what Ill take to Mechanicon.
Iechine wrote: So I took my 4 Flyrants of the Apocalypse against an all bike Ravenwing 1850 tourney army for my first practice game. It did include the +2 cover boosting vehicle whos name I currently cant remember, so he was jinking with two ups on his bikes quite often. He also rolled invisibility and dominate, whereas I got all onslaught, paroxysm and Horror...8 chances to get catalyst to no avail.
I rolled master of ambush and pushed two fex with the malanthrope up with the warlord, with everyone else behind to grab the malan's cover save. He made his scout moves and then SEIZED.
So worst case scenario of bike alpha strike. When that turn was over I had lost my warlord, a fex, a wound on a tyrant who jinked, and another fex was reduced to one. But from there I played smart and fried to the vehicle, and pulled my fexes back to force him into my deployment zone while my fliers went the other way. Malanthrope stuck with the fexes.
I selected my targets well, jinked at the right times and picked apart his army slowly but surely despite his FNP rolls being insane. Malanthrope got locked into combat and kicked extreme ass, lasting several rounds even with him hitting and running in and out of combat and killed a ton of bikers. Mawloc hit once, in the middle of a sea of bikers, she was fantastic and would mishap off to later secure an objective. Even my rippers did a great job holding their objectives and tarpitting.
His list is no joke and most everyone thought the game would be over by turn 3 after his first turn, but it was swung just with three Tyrants having great positioning. It needs practicing but the 4 Tyrants/Dakkafex/Ripper/Mawloc/Malanthrope team is probably what Ill take to Mechanicon.
The four flyrant list is very similar to the list that I want to try out. And not just because it would require another flyrant, which I have taken great joy in converting to each be murdering something in a fun and dynamic pose. Once the paint jobs are finished I'll definitely post pics. One is using an actual dreadnought as the base, having his tail gored through the chest of the walker. Another is basically vector striking a fallen killa kan, and the third is a more normal pose, but mounted on a hill of actual heads from various races and models.
It was definitely shenanigans even with just the three Tyrants being alive. Not being grounded helps, but I think the joy of 4 tyrants circling the board (which is how I ran them) shooting and synapsing gives me hope for prevailing.
First proper go with my hierophant yesterday in a 4k a side game against an Iyanden themed Eldar army complete with Revenant and damn can the big girl eat!
I upgraded her with the transport option and loaded her up with a 20 strong 'stealer and broodlord with the aim of a turn one assault (I went second) against the softer body of his army, Wraithguard. He'd upgraded his ten man strong Wraithguard with D Scythes so I used the 'stealers to soak up the overwatch as that many D Scythes would have made a mess of the big lady, so the 'stealers ended up being expensive cannon fodder.
Using this strategy I went through two ten man units of Wraithguard before losing the 'stealers and a third having to weather the D Scythes. After that appetizer she then ate the Revenant after the Zoes' softened him up with lances. Fantastic return on the investment of points, win for me as I had more objectives and more VP.
This has just given me the idea to put a Mawloc head with a bit of greenstuff on the carapace as the head to my Riptide for my predator themed Tau. With the release of the Riptide I put my Tau down till they get sensibly balanced, however I do love the model. Can't wait till they get rebalanced.
For my Flyrants, I've been running 2 older metal models with Deamon / Dragon wings that I have pinned and magnetized to them.
I recently got ahold of a proper plastic Flyrant. I'm eyeing those wings, and I would love to magnetise them for storage, but they are a big bigger, and at an angle that is going to cause more torque. Has anyone had good success magnetizing Plastic Flyrant wings?
I just glued mine, they would not be an easy magnetise although for me nothing is.
I'm wondering about Haywire Hive Guard. They are still worth their points in durability, and 3 Blasts is much better than three shots. Would probably do 2 HP a turn. I think they obviously aren't as good at Skimmer popping, but we dont have such a weak vs them, Flyrants are very good at the role, same story with flyers. Impaler Cannon is by no means a bad option but I think I might start paying the extra 15 pts per squad for the Haywire weapon. They will likely do 2 HP a turn, multiplied by the 2-3 squads I run in some lists. It also let's them rampage GEQ. Each squad is 10 pts cheaper than an eGrubs TFex though, and that should be the point of reference I believe, providing very similar support and durability. It's a trade off of the armor save for what I believe, will be more damage. Going to test them out and get a feel for returns, but i don't think they are at all bad.
SHUPPET wrote: I just glued mine, they would not be an easy magnetise although for me nothing is.
I'm wondering about Haywire Hive Guard. They are still worth their points in durability, and 3 Blasts is much better than three shots. Would probably do 2 HP a turn. I think they obviously aren't as good at Skimmer popping, but we dont have such a weak vs them, Flyrants are very good at the role, same story with flyers. Impaler Cannon is by no means a bad option but I think I might start paying the extra 15 pts per squad for the Haywire weapon. They will likely do 2 HP a turn, multiplied by the 2-3 squads I run in some lists. It also let's them rampage GEQ. Each squad is 10 pts cheaper than an eGrubs TFex though, and that should be the point of reference I believe, providing very similar support and durability. It's a trade off of the armor save for what I believe, will be more damage. Going to test them out and get a feel for returns, but i don't think they are at all bad.
I've been looking at the same thing. The last game I played my opponent's single land raider was causing me some issues (though it was pretty much the only thing he had remaining at the end of turn 4). I had 3 psykers with warp lance, none of which actually ever generated the 2 warp charges (even though I was throwing 5 dice for each lance) or managed to hit. The small blasts from the shock cannons would be great for putting haywire hits on a land raider...
Anything AV14-13 it didn't quite kill would likely actually be hurt enough to die to one successful smash, which is something we have a lot of in Nid armies. I wouldn't use them in a standard Dakkafex/Living Artillery brigade, but they seem to be the perfect compliment to Stealers and anything swarmy, who only really struggle vs heavy AV. HG in general also provide one of the cheapest and largest T6 screen in the army very efficiently.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whether or not you choose to use them for that ofc, just an option some games and a good way to claim 2+ Stealer saves.
So with the 7th edition now fully in swing. What's the concensus on the crone/harpy? In my local meta fliers are popping up more and more. Making it worth while to include a crone or 2 even with the nerf to VS. With haywire missiles and the drool cannon for pounding tau in gunlines crones still seem viable. Not sure on the harpy seems like it could be useful, but can it compete with other gun platforms we have available?
Backlash wrote: So with the 7th edition now fully in swing. What's the concensus on the crone/harpy? In my local meta fliers are popping up more and more. Making it worth while to include a crone or 2 even with the nerf to VS. With haywire missiles and the drool cannon for pounding tau in gunlines crones still seem viable. Not sure on the harpy seems like it could be useful, but can it compete with other gun platforms we have available?
I think that the Crone is putting out only 2/3 of the damage it did in 7th, but it is 3 times as survivable. It is still a solid unit, but not a panacea.
The Harpy on the other hand is bad. S8 vs S6 vector strike is huge. The Spore Bomb is great against blobs of infantry, but nobody runs blobs of infantry. The TLHVC used to be good when it had a chance to pop vehicles. Now that all you can do is glance them, it is not good. STC is a little better. But once again, it is best against blobs of infantry, and nobody runs blobs of infantry. And the biggest flaw of the Harpy is that everything it does can be done better by Dakkafexes or Acid Tfexes or Biovores, and done better and cheaper.
The Dakka Flyrant is still our best anti-air option. But Crone is clearly our second.
tag8833 wrote: For my Flyrants, I've been running 2 older metal models with Deamon / Dragon wings that I have pinned and magnetized to them.
I recently got ahold of a proper plastic Flyrant. I'm eyeing those wings, and I would love to magnetise them for storage, but they are a big bigger, and at an angle that is going to cause more torque. Has anyone had good success magnetizing Plastic Flyrant wings?
Magnet with a pin for positioning works perfectly.
i've magnetized my flyrant completely; its' not hard to do.
that mawlock/flryant conversion was sweet. gorgeous army.
as folks have stated, crones went from the be-all tool in the box to just being good. think of them as slightly more mobile tfexes with the added bonus that they'll eat other FMC up.
i've only gotten a couple of games in w/ harpies; i run them with HVC, on opposite ends of the board to ensure i have a flank shot on something; with an eye for stripping HP off of AV13+. jury is still out for me on them.
tag8833 wrote: For my Flyrants, I've been running 2 older metal models with Deamon / Dragon wings that I have pinned and magnetized to them.
I recently got ahold of a proper plastic Flyrant. I'm eyeing those wings, and I would love to magnetise them for storage, but they are a big bigger, and at an angle that is going to cause more torque. Has anyone had good success magnetizing Plastic Flyrant wings?
Magnet with a pin for positioning works perfectly.
Does the Pin deal with all of the Torque? I usually use 5 mm round magnets 2mm think for arms of MC's. They can hold a devourer on, but won't do much for large wings at that angle. The wings would just tilt downward and detach the magnet. I pinned my other flyrant wings by drilling for a pin downward, and the Pins hold the torque. The main purpose of the magnet is to keep the pin from coming out, but on the Metal models there is alot of structure that I can drill into. I sank the Pins 1/2 an inch deep. On a plastic model, there is nothing but a thin layer for pins.
I magnetized my Crone wings by using multiple magnets. There isn't as much place for more than 1 on the flyrant.
There's plenty of depth for pins on the new plastic Tyrant.
The magnets I use hold the wing on just fine - the pin makes the wing not spin. I'd show what I mean, but my models are in storage while I try to sell my house.
Played my game vs Eldar this Saturday and The 2500 point list I ran was pretty amazing. Crushed the Eldar with little to no problem.
I will be posting the battle report soon (in the batrep forum)
Thoughts on the new Dima. This thing is beast. It is slow but the upside it is not that hard to hide 25% or more behind carnifex's or a warrior brood. This thing, once in combat, crushed anything it looked at. It almost felt like having the old swarmlord (just a brutal beast in cc). Before one fell (I brought 2) it had killed 3 wraith lords, and a wraith knight, the other one managed to kill a Prism, Avatar, and a squad of wraith guard with D cannons. I was more than pleased with how they performed and will probably include at least one (if not 2) in every list I run.
tag8833 wrote: For my Flyrants, I've been running 2 older metal models with Deamon / Dragon wings that I have pinned and magnetized to them.
I recently got ahold of a proper plastic Flyrant. I'm eyeing those wings, and I would love to magnetise them for storage, but they are a big bigger, and at an angle that is going to cause more torque. Has anyone had good success magnetizing Plastic Flyrant wings?
Magnet with a pin for positioning works perfectly.
Does the Pin deal with all of the Torque? I usually use 5 mm round magnets 2mm think for arms of MC's. They can hold a devourer on, but won't do much for large wings at that angle. The wings would just tilt downward and detach the magnet. I pinned my other flyrant wings by drilling for a pin downward, and the Pins hold the torque. The main purpose of the magnet is to keep the pin from coming out, but on the Metal models there is alot of structure that I can drill into. I sank the Pins 1/2 an inch deep. On a plastic model, there is nothing but a thin layer for pins.
I magnetized my Crone wings by using multiple magnets. There isn't as much place for more than 1 on the flyrant.
My two Flyrants are the plastic kind and magnetized. Single magnets, but I built up their arm pits with green stuff as I went for weirder angles on the wings.
Thaddeus Fransisco, his kinda sticks out more for a normal pose:
tag8833 wrote: For my Flyrants, I've been running 2 older metal models with Deamon / Dragon wings that I have pinned and magnetized to them.
I recently got ahold of a proper plastic Flyrant. I'm eyeing those wings, and I would love to magnetise them for storage, but they are a big bigger, and at an angle that is going to cause more torque. Has anyone had good success magnetizing Plastic Flyrant wings?
Magnet with a pin for positioning works perfectly.
Does the Pin deal with all of the Torque? I usually use 5 mm round magnets 2mm think for arms of MC's. They can hold a devourer on, but won't do much for large wings at that angle. The wings would just tilt downward and detach the magnet. I pinned my other flyrant wings by drilling for a pin downward, and the Pins hold the torque. The main purpose of the magnet is to keep the pin from coming out, but on the Metal models there is alot of structure that I can drill into. I sank the Pins 1/2 an inch deep. On a plastic model, there is nothing but a thin layer for pins.
I magnetized my Crone wings by using multiple magnets. There isn't as much place for more than 1 on the flyrant.
My two Flyrants are the plastic kind and magnetized. Single magnets, but I built up their arm pits with green stuff as I went for weirder angles on the wings.
Thaddeus Fransisco, his kinda sticks out more for a normal pose:
foto69man wrote: My two Flyrants are the plastic kind and magnetized. Single magnets, but I built up their arm pits with green stuff as I went for weirder angles on the wings.
I can do close-ups if anyone wants
It looks like you used really big magnets. Like 8 mm. Then you had to green stuff sculpt around them to hide them. Is that about right?
When they get bumped on the table top, how secure are they?
foto69man wrote: My two Flyrants are the plastic kind and magnetized. Single magnets, but I built up their arm pits with green stuff as I went for weirder angles on the wings.
I can do close-ups if anyone wants
It looks like you used really big magnets. Like 8 mm. Then you had to green stuff sculpt around them to hide them. Is that about right?
When they get bumped on the table top, how secure are they?
Nope, 4.75mm magnets. I just picked in my head how I wanted them to look and used the magnets/green stuff to get them there and not look odd. Makes them look more bulky, like they actually fly a lot...or lift lol. They are pretty bottom heavy, so getting bumped doesn't move them much, and the greenstuff armpits tends to hold the wings in place.
More pictures to show.
Burtus still has a long way to go before I'm happy with how he looks. Then have to copy that to the whole hive...
@foto69man
You have a very similar color scheme to your nids as mine- bleached bone chitin with a scorched brown carapace.
I'm not sure of the size of my magnets, but I didn't feel the need to use a pin- the wings stay on fairly tight to my magnetyrant. They definately aren't bigger than the arm socket.
Sinful Hero wrote: @foto69man
You have a very similar color scheme to your nids as mine- bleached bone chitin with a scorched brown carapace.
I'm not sure of the size of my magnets, but I didn't feel the need to use a pin- the wings stay on fairly tight to my magnetyrant. They definately aren't bigger than the arm socket.
Thanks! I was going for an ice/ash world scheme...but with the distinct bug like splotches on their carapace. What really terrifys me though, is trying to do this scheme and make it look halfway decent on my Harridan.
Spoilered for size, but more of the painted family
foto69man wrote: My two Flyrants are the plastic kind and magnetized. Single magnets, but I built up their arm pits with green stuff as I went for weirder angles on the wings.
I can do close-ups if anyone wants
It looks like you used really big magnets. Like 8 mm. Then you had to green stuff sculpt around them to hide them. Is that about right?
When they get bumped on the table top, how secure are they?
Nope, 4.75mm magnets. I just picked in my head how I wanted them to look and used the magnets/green stuff to get them there and not look odd. Makes them look more bulky, like they actually fly a lot...or lift lol. They are pretty bottom heavy, so getting bumped doesn't move them much, and the greenstuff armpits tends to hold the wings in place.
I've got a 5mm and a 3mm on each of my Crone wings. They hold fine, but when they get bumped on the table top they tend to fall off, especially if the are bumped at an upward angle. They have good downward holding thanks to the way I modeled them, but pull them upward, and they torque and the magnets lose hold. I played a guy last week who knocked my Crone wings off 15-20 times. I've decided to do some aggressive modeling work on them to up those magnets to 7 MM so they hold on better. Either that or add a 3rd Magnet to each wing.
Eldercaveman wrote: @pinecone , having built a Harridan, and someone who can magentize how hard would you say it would be to magnetise the wings on it?
It looks like a big model, I used pins on the Tyrants, so I'd do the same for something that big, I'd want to break it down for transport, so I'd want it to be easy...say 1/4 inch? (3cm??? sorry, american )
Oops not very clear, magnet and a pin...maybe two if you're paranoid.
I gave some thought to magnetizing my Harridan's wings....and then I picked up the wings. SO HEAVY. Although the angle is slightly helpful since they're angled up a bit, it would still certainly need to be pinned. You could do a combination of a pin and a magnet and that would work pretty well. I just decided to bite the bullet and pin and glue the sucker. Thankfully my FLGS is completely fine with me keeping it there.....whose location shall remain a secret in the event that there are those with larsony in their hearts
Here is a few things i have just finished. I currently have 35,000 points of Tyranids and am re-painting all of them. Next project will be Tervigons ..
Gray already knows how I feel about his Nids, but goddamn I can't say it enough - that is a dope colour scheme. Might just be that it appeals to me personally in a lot of different ways, but regardless that's gotta be some of my favourite Nids ever.
Gray1378 wrote: Here is a few things i have just finished. I currently have 35,000 points of Tyranids and am re-painting all of them. Next project will be Tervigons ..
I love it...thats all I can come up with right now, brains not working
tag8833 wrote: What book / FAQ has the current rules for the Barbed Hierodule?
I know for a fact that IA 4 has the most recent rules for them, but I believe it is the exact same as the rules when IA: Apocalypse was released. So, either of those books will contain the recent rules, but IA: 4 also has rules for the non Apoc Nids.
Jy2 I always enjoy reading your battle reports. Great job at the BAO and better luck next time.
The rules for the barbed are in IA4 first and second edition. The rules did not change for it (I do feel points drop is still necessary). It is a solid beasty.
A decent TAC list but other than Centurions, what's bad about this? At 1850 I'd match my TyraKnights against that willingly. He has no anti air to speak of, and if he stays in the Bastion or Raider they can't shoot all his Cents or use Tigurius' powers. Quite simply I line up the Knight an wait for him to come out of the Raider while Flyers murder his transports. Six heavy bolters, TL strength 6, just isn't enough to kill 4 FMCs, especially when I have a 2++ cover. His psyker squads are only effective outside a transport, and then they die to Biovore immediately. They're just there for oportunity and as batteries, but they die too easily. He also is physically incapable of killing a Bastion. He has the beacon in case of gate, so if he gets that I'll just kill the scout bikers easily.
A decent TAC list but other than Centurions, what's bad about this? At 1850 I'd match my TyraKnights against that willingly.
I play mostly Maelstrom these days, and regularly get beat by similar lists. There is good speed, and lots of scoring units. My Flying Circus TAC list can sometimes table them, but if I fail to do so, I'm getting outscored in a big way.
The Centurions which will end up joined to the ICs with Invisibility and Gate, and both easily castable with a ton of psychic dice strike me as a unit that I would have a really hard time killing in 5 turns to table this list.
I could definitely beat it if playing Eternal war or some Eternal war derivative.
A decent TAC list but other than Centurions, what's bad about this? At 1850 I'd match my TyraKnights against that willingly.
I play mostly Maelstrom these days, and regularly get beat by similar lists. There is good speed, and lots of scoring units. My Flying Circus TAC list can sometimes table them, but if I fail to do so, I'm getting outscored in a big way.
The Centurions which will end up joined to the ICs with Invisibility and Gate, and both easily castable with a ton of psychic dice strike me as a unit that I would have a really hard time killing in 5 turns to table this list.
I could definitely beat it if playing Eternal war or some Eternal war derivative.
If it got both invisibility and gate it would be nasty, but otherwise I think it's able to be handled. Then again, I have a Knight in my list... that definitely changes the matchup. Otherwise, I would just pick a single power and try to deny it, he can't put too many into it without risking a perils and eventually I'd get him.
Its a good list. Has 21 WC[edit said 14 but I think the razorbacks/LR have psychic pilot ml 1). Im guessing cents end up in land raider with tigurius and warlord and probably the other librarian. Im asssuming he will go for Invis/and div over gate if they are in the land raider, and then will go for gate if he happens to get gate and invis. I say if he happens because theres a decent chance he doesn't get invis. (even with rerolling his powers the odds are ~76% that he gets invis) Coteaz has a 32% chance, and the ML3 librarian has a ~51% chance. Overall the chance is good that someone gets it, but nothing is guaranteed and there is still a significant chance that no one gets it. (88% chance to get invis if all psykers roll all dice on telepathy with tigurius getting rerolls)
Consider the above is also the chance to get gate.
I think a good counter to this army is any horde list, shooty or assault. With decent WC. If you have 12WC (including whatever the d6 is...) you can pretty much force them to roll a lot of dice to cast invis even if its tiggy with the rerolls, because its not that hard to get two successful deny rolls if they just go for the min 4 dice to have a slightly better than average chance to succeed. This forces the Gk player to not just roll to succeed but also to prevent being denied. And just focus on dropping the razorbacks, the GK player isnt going to take the contents out of them, and the contents on them will not be casting too often if the player is powering up the cent star. ie less than half of the psykers in the razorbacks will be casting on average.
you can easily lockdown the cent star in assault if you double assault it, first assault with a small unit who will eat the overwatch then assault with whatever else you actually want in there.
I think this list will be very tough for armies that use deathstars themselves or rely on lots of elite / MC units. I think most TAC nid lists would have a hard time due to their tendency to nidzilla. The cents could probably kill 1-2 nid MCs a turn. Even if they are flying. If tiggy uses his ability to allow rerolls even hitting on 6s with grav amp you are looking at 25 shots hitting 7-8 times. Wounding on 3+ with rerolls against most tyranid FMC is ~6 wounds at ap 2. not including the hurricane bolters. Which if they were within 12-24" would be another 15 str 4 shots with reroll to hit, so another 4-5 hits, but at str4 probably wont wound a tyrant, but will force 2-3 saves on a harpy or crone on avg.
A decent TAC list but other than Centurions, what's bad about this? At 1850 I'd match my TyraKnights against that willingly.
I play mostly Maelstrom these days, and regularly get beat by similar lists. There is good speed, and lots of scoring units. My Flying Circus TAC list can sometimes table them, but if I fail to do so, I'm getting outscored in a big way.
The Centurions which will end up joined to the ICs with Invisibility and Gate, and both easily castable with a ton of psychic dice strike me as a unit that I would have a really hard time killing in 5 turns to table this list.
I could definitely beat it if playing Eternal war or some Eternal war derivative.
If it got both invisibility and gate it would be nasty, but otherwise I think it's able to be handled. Then again, I have a Knight in my list... that definitely changes the matchup. Otherwise, I would just pick a single power and try to deny it, he can't put too many into it without risking a perils and eventually I'd get him.
That list can get a decent number of Vortex of Dooms, so watch that with the knight. Also watch out for turn 1 psychic alpha strike -- your knight gets it shield turn 1 at start of shooting phase -- after turn 1 psychic phase.
The better variant of this list swaps the land raider for a storm raven for anti-psycher and flyer. Thats the one you will see in the states (Team Stomping Ground is taking it to NoVa apparently).
Also mystics are beacons too so just killing the scout bikes is not enough.
Finally, mysterious objectives can grant skyfire to any unit holding it, so watch out for skyfire psychic screams and the like.
Its a good list. Has 21 WC[edit said 14 but I think the razorbacks/LR have psychic pilot ml 1). Im guessing cents end up in land raider with tigurius and warlord and probably the other librarian. Im asssuming he will go for Invis/and div over gate if they are in the land raider, and then will go for gate if he happens to get gate and invis. I say if he happens because theres a decent chance he doesn't get invis. (even with rerolling his powers the odds are ~76% that he gets invis) Coteaz has a 32% chance, and the ML3 librarian has a ~51% chance. Overall the chance is good that someone gets it, but nothing is guaranteed and there is still a significant chance that no one gets it. (88% chance to get invis if all psykers roll all dice on telepathy with tigurius getting rerolls)
Consider the above is also the chance to get gate.
I think a good counter to this army is any horde list, shooty or assault. With decent WC. If you have 12WC (including whatever the d6 is...) you can pretty much force them to roll a lot of dice to cast invis even if its tiggy with the rerolls, because its not that hard to get two successful deny rolls if they just go for the min 4 dice to have a slightly better than average chance to succeed. This forces the Gk player to not just roll to succeed but also to prevent being denied. And just focus on dropping the razorbacks, the GK player isnt going to take the contents out of them, and the contents on them will not be casting too often if the player is powering up the cent star. ie less than half of the psykers in the razorbacks will be casting on average.
you can easily lockdown the cent star in assault if you double assault it, first assault with a small unit who will eat the overwatch then assault with whatever else you actually want in there.
I think this list will be very tough for armies that use deathstars themselves or rely on lots of elite / MC units.
Actually, Centurions can't overwatch at all. They're highly vulnerable to being charged, their main weakness as an MC will cut through them. Having Libbys in helps a bit, I would just challenge Coteaz to make sure he can't Hammer someone down.
I just remembered that the ETC has no Knights, which explains a lot, as Knights were a big weakness for this list. Against normal Nid lists this would be tough, but it's clearly designed to go for Gate. I just don't think it's likely to get both Gate and ignores covers. And if it doesn't have ignores cover, I don't really care. It literally can't hurt a Bastion with a Thrope inside, and that means you have great cover all around.
tag8833 wrote: For my Flyrants, I've been running 2 older metal models with Deamon / Dragon wings that I have pinned and magnetized to them.
I recently got ahold of a proper plastic Flyrant. I'm eyeing those wings, and I would love to magnetise them for storage, but they are a big bigger, and at an angle that is going to cause more torque. Has anyone had good success magnetizing Plastic Flyrant wings?
We have four magnetized - we've just built a smaller (as in fitting in two cases) army and it's worked pretty well. It's much easier with the modern plastic bodies, as the wings fit onto them snugly and there's no leverage. I use a 5 x 5mm magnet in the body, and a 5 x 3mm magnet in each wing.
tag8833 wrote: For my Flyrants, I've been running 2 older metal models with Deamon / Dragon wings that I have pinned and magnetized to them.
I recently got ahold of a proper plastic Flyrant. I'm eyeing those wings, and I would love to magnetise them for storage, but they are a big bigger, and at an angle that is going to cause more torque. Has anyone had good success magnetizing Plastic Flyrant wings?
We have four magnetized - we've just built a smaller (as in fitting in two cases) army and it's worked pretty well. It's much easier with the modern plastic bodies, as the wings fit onto them snugly and there's no leverage. I use a 5 x 5mm magnet in the body, and a 5 x 3mm magnet in each wing.
Are you using rectangular magnets, or just really deep ones?
Is there a difference between 1 5mm round 3mm deep and 3 5mm round 1mm deep?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can someone tell me what size base a Malanthrope is on? Is it Warrior / Zoey size or Carnifex / Tyrant size?
tag8833 wrote: For my Flyrants, I've been running 2 older metal models with Deamon / Dragon wings that I have pinned and magnetized to them.
I recently got ahold of a proper plastic Flyrant. I'm eyeing those wings, and I would love to magnetise them for storage, but they are a big bigger, and at an angle that is going to cause more torque. Has anyone had good success magnetizing Plastic Flyrant wings?
We have four magnetized - we've just built a smaller (as in fitting in two cases) army and it's worked pretty well. It's much easier with the modern plastic bodies, as the wings fit onto them snugly and there's no leverage. I use a 5 x 5mm magnet in the body, and a 5 x 3mm magnet in each wing.
Are you using rectangular magnets, or just really deep ones?
Is there a difference between 1 5mm round 3mm deep and 3 5mm round 1mm deep?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can someone tell me what size base a Malanthrope is on? Is it Warrior / Zoey size or Carnifex / Tyrant size?
malanthrope is on a 60mm (dreadnaught) sized base.
i'll take some pics of my magnetized flyrant later and post them for you guys; the wings aren't difficult to do; just need a dremmel. mine are just magnetized, no pins.
badula wrote: men FW posted the Dimacherion for preorders....
it's really an HORRIBLE concept and sculpt IMHO!
An expensive. Like, Knight expensive for what it does. Ouch.
Methinks China Dave or Tervigon conversions will be my approach here. I seriously can't justify throwing that money at the Dima. Not really a huge fan of the sculpt either to be honest...
Oh Dima. Oh Dima Dima Dima...why do you do this to me?
Opinions are what they are, though I think the concept itself is rather neat and like the model (looks like a big Lictor to me). A buddy at our gaming group let me have a look through their book and its fluff is actually quite interesting. It is basically a specialization of the Hive Tyrant genus with a focus on combat capabilities over command functions. Specifically, it is designed to pick out and destroy enemy champions that are too skilled or tough for a Lictor to handle (example given was Space Marine chapter masters, but could probably extend to things like Daemon Princes, unusually large Warbosses etc.) and kill them in such a gory, messy manner as to shatter moral. Even the Spine Maw makes sense with the context of the beast's function, basically it parades the corpses of beloved champions within its rib-cage to demoralize enemy troops (and give the visual of the victim being eaten alive - the victim might even still be partially living after having been impaled for further horror).
On the table top it does do its fluff function (very little can take it on one-on-one and most things that could are more expensive), but the problem is mostly just that it is too scary in combat to leave alive and it doesn't have a good delivery mechanism to get to the fight before getting shot up. The first thing my brother said when I showed him the rules for the creature was "That dies first.", which is probably the general opinion of anyone who sees what it can potentially do, especially if their army is made up of units that are vulnerable to ID (Nidzilla ironically being the first thing that springs to mind).
I could drop the spine bank fex, adrenal glands on the other two, and get a Dima in there. I want my Four tyrants alive and well, and hes a bullet magnet. The odds of running in to DP armies are high, and if I can have him in my backfield turn 1 they wont like him assaulting.
The problems I have with this is that the model is terrible and is strictly CC, I lose a lot of firepower. But if he gets focused down turn 1 it leaves the other two fexes and flyrants shooting in tact.
I could drop the spine bank fex, adrenal glands on the other two, and get a Dima in there. I want my Four tyrants alive and well, and hes a bullet magnet. The odds of running in to DP armies are high, and if I can have him in my backfield turn 1 they wont like him assaulting.
The problems I have with this is that the model is terrible and is strictly CC, I lose a lot of firepower. But if he gets focused down turn 1 it leaves the other two fexes and flyrants shooting in tact.
You need something to bubble wrap the Fexes as they advance with the Malanthrope. Because they have A.G., and you don't want them to be slowed by the bubble wrap, I suggest Hormagaunts (Fleet, +3 run) or Gargoyles. In this case, I would drop 2 Swarms of Rippers for 2 Broods of Hormagaunts. To accomplish this I would drop A.G. from one of the Carnifexes or Drop the Mawloc. Also, one extra Gaunt is worth more than spine banks. It is good to have sacrificial gribbles to each overwatch or to assault an enemy squad to make the bunch up for your Mawloc. Bringing a Mawloc in over an ongoing assault is great.
I wouldn't add a Dima, because it simplifies target priority too much. If I fear super super-assault, I kill the Dima. If I fear Dakka, I kill the dakkfexes. If you did want to run the Dima, you could drop all of your Dakkafexes for it.
The other thing you could do is drop the spine bank Carnifex for an Exocrine to give you a bit more diversity.
Gray1378 wrote: Jy2 I always enjoy reading your battle reports. Great job at the BAO and better luck next time.
The rules for the barbed are in IA4 first and second edition. The rules did not change for it (I do feel points drop is still necessary). It is a solid beasty.
Thanks! After my experiences at the BAO, I am actually starting to feel more confident about my bugs. While Skyblight got nerfed, it actually presents a lot of matchup problems to a lot of armies. You can kind of say that it is the proverbial "monkey wrench" to a lot of tournament armies.
Its a good list. Has 21 WC[edit said 14 but I think the razorbacks/LR have psychic pilot ml 1). Im guessing cents end up in land raider with tigurius and warlord and probably the other librarian. Im asssuming he will go for Invis/and div over gate if they are in the land raider, and then will go for gate if he happens to get gate and invis. I say if he happens because theres a decent chance he doesn't get invis. (even with rerolling his powers the odds are ~76% that he gets invis) Coteaz has a 32% chance, and the ML3 librarian has a ~51% chance. Overall the chance is good that someone gets it, but nothing is guaranteed and there is still a significant chance that no one gets it. (88% chance to get invis if all psykers roll all dice on telepathy with tigurius getting rerolls)
Consider the above is also the chance to get gate.
I think a good counter to this army is any horde list, shooty or assault. With decent WC. If you have 12WC (including whatever the d6 is...) you can pretty much force them to roll a lot of dice to cast invis even if its tiggy with the rerolls, because its not that hard to get two successful deny rolls if they just go for the min 4 dice to have a slightly better than average chance to succeed. This forces the Gk player to not just roll to succeed but also to prevent being denied. And just focus on dropping the razorbacks, the GK player isnt going to take the contents out of them, and the contents on them will not be casting too often if the player is powering up the cent star. ie less than half of the psykers in the razorbacks will be casting on average.
you can easily lockdown the cent star in assault if you double assault it, first assault with a small unit who will eat the overwatch then assault with whatever else you actually want in there.
I think this list will be very tough for armies that use deathstars themselves or rely on lots of elite / MC units. I think most TAC nid lists would have a hard time due to their tendency to nidzilla. The cents could probably kill 1-2 nid MCs a turn. Even if they are flying. If tiggy uses his ability to allow rerolls even hitting on 6s with grav amp you are looking at 25 shots hitting 7-8 times. Wounding on 3+ with rerolls against most tyranid FMC is ~6 wounds at ap 2. not including the hurricane bolters. Which if they were within 12-24" would be another 15 str 4 shots with reroll to hit, so another 4-5 hits, but at str4 probably wont wound a tyrant, but will force 2-3 saves on a harpy or crone on avg.
BTW, there is no LR in the list, and it doesn't need one.
Just a couple of notes here.
1. If the unit gets Gate, you can't really lock it in combat as it can teleport out. And the bad thing is that it can teleport out....and then it can still shoot in the Shooting phase!
2. It can deal with hordes. 1 unit of 5 centurions with hurricane bolters can potentially put out 30 twin-linked bolter shots.
3. Be careful about assaulting it with MC's. It's got 3 guys in there with force weapons - S6 Daemonhammer, S6 force stave and the GK librarian's force weapon.
The way to play against the centstar is to just ignore it and go after the troops. If it get Invisibility, you can forget about it.
Actually, Centurions can't overwatch at all. They're highly vulnerable to being charged, their main weakness as an MC will cut through them. Having Libbys in helps a bit, I would just challenge Coteaz to make sure he can't Hammer someone down.
I just remembered that the ETC has no Knights, which explains a lot, as Knights were a big weakness for this list. Against normal Nid lists this would be tough, but it's clearly designed to go for Gate. I just don't think it's likely to get both Gate and ignores covers. And if it doesn't have ignores cover, I don't really care. It literally can't hurt a Bastion with a Thrope inside, and that means you have great cover all around.
You issue the challenge, your opponent chooses who accepts. I doubt he'd be foolish enough to accept with Coteaz. As for the other characters, you're going to have to Smash to insta-kill them and smashing against an Invisible unit is a tall order.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
badula wrote: men FW posted the Dimacherion for preorders....
it's really an HORRIBLE concept and sculpt IMHO!
I actually saw the real model, which someone at our LGS already has.
Let me tell you, the pictures on FW's website doesn't do it justice. The model looks much, much better in "real life" than it does as pictures on the net. There is just sooo much detail to it. It really is an impressive piece.
Iechine wrote: So right now my list for a GT in october is
I could drop the spine bank fex, adrenal glands on the other two, and get a Dima in there. I want my Four tyrants alive and well, and hes a bullet magnet. The odds of running in to DP armies are high, and if I can have him in my backfield turn 1 they wont like him assaulting.
The problems I have with this is that the model is terrible and is strictly CC, I lose a lot of firepower. But if he gets focused down turn 1 it leaves the other two fexes and flyrants shooting in tact.
I
The list is really strong. It's interesting to see your progression from when you first posted your batreps here. You first started off with funky Tyranid army and have now graduated with a super-optimized, ultra-hardcore, rip-your-f*cking-throat-out type of Tyranid army. Call me impressed, and welcome to the world of competitive gaming.
With that said, honestly, I don't feel that you need Adrenals on all those fexes. It's main role is to shoot and only assault if the opportunity arises. Therefore, you will almost never be running. Also, unless you are expecting a lot of LR's in your meta, S10 against the majority of vehicles is overkill. You really don't need it. Besides, you've got 4 electrogrubs from your flyrants. That is more than enough to kill most LR lists.
Instead, consider this.
1. Dropping 1 fex (or 1 mawloc) and the adrenals can get you 1 dima.
2. Or drop the adrenals, spine banks, maybe swap out 1 unit of DS rippers for gants (or just take out the DS capability for 1 unit) and maybe 1 Egrubs and now you can get a 2nd malanthrope.
The list is really strong. It's interesting to see your progression from when you first posted your batreps here. You first started off with funky Tyranid army and have now graduated with a super-optimized, ultra-hardcore, rip-your-f*cking-throat-out type of Tyranid army. Call me impressed, and welcome to the world of competitive gaming.
With that said, honestly, I don't feel that you need Adrenals on all those fexes. It's main role is to shoot and only assault if the opportunity arises. Therefore, you will almost never be running. Also, unless you are expecting a lot of LR's in your meta, S10 against the majority of vehicles is overkill. You really don't need it. Besides, you've got 4 electrogrubs from your flyrants. That is more than enough to kill most LR lists.
Instead, consider this.
1. Dropping 1 fex (or 1 mawloc) and the adrenals can get you 1 dima.
2. Or drop the adrenals, spine banks, maybe swap out 1 unit of DS rippers for gants (or just take out the DS capability for 1 unit) and maybe 1 Egrubs and now you can get a 2nd malanthrope.
Personally, I'd prefer option #2.
Hey thanks man, Id really like to get best Nids at Mechanicon, so Im definitely headed down that path. I will say that I ordered two malanthropes in case things worked out where I wanted to take two. Ive still got months to decide and commit, and plenty of play testing to do. I doubt I could buy a Dima in time and would have to do the tervigon conversion, which in itself is enough reason not to go with option #1.
I could drop the spine bank fex, adrenal glands on the other two, and get a Dima in there. I want my Four tyrants alive and well, and hes a bullet magnet. The odds of running in to DP armies are high, and if I can have him in my backfield turn 1 they wont like him assaulting.
The problems I have with this is that the model is terrible and is strictly CC, I lose a lot of firepower. But if he gets focused down turn 1 it leaves the other two fexes and flyrants shooting in tact.
At 21 models(13 of them deep-striking) it shouldn't be too bad pushing around at a tournament either. I assume it would play fairly fast after the initial psychic power generating and such.
Thats a definite boon in my opinion, simply being able to think and execute without having to move swarms and swarms of infantry. Shooting phase is what it is, but its all 12 dice you keep to the side.
It survived a crippling Ravenwing bike alpha strike on a first turn seize after using MoA, and went on to take the win. It's still fun to play and very tactical, and synapse doesnt break your heart when its not around.
Its worth pointing out that I cant do maths apparently, and that the spine bank fex does NOT have AG's. It only has the SB because what else can you do with 5 spare points?
I haven't really done much to him yet, besides to glue on some legs from an old action figure of mine. Now need to figure out how to convert the rest.
This picture is more to show the size and scale of the dima compared to some of the other models.
That is interesting. I had been looking at putting a Tervigon's legs on a Tyrant to convert mine. Is the body more Trygon sized? Isn't the base supposed to be 60 mm, aka Tyrant sized?
I haven't really done much to him yet, besides to glue on some legs from an old action figure of mine. Now need to figure out how to convert the rest.
This picture is more to show the size and scale of the dima compared to some of the other models.
That is interesting. I had been looking at putting a Tervigon's legs on a Tyrant to convert mine. Is the body more Trygon sized? Isn't the base supposed to be 60 mm, aka Tyrant sized?
This big:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ive got about an hour and a half to decide what to take to a local 1500pt tourny. Im stuck with 1 force org and no allies because Tyranids.
Flyrant w/devs Electro
Flyrant w/devs Electro
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope (Or venom, or ripper swarm)
Ripper w/ds
ripper w/ds
ripper w/ds
2x Carnifex w/Devs 2x Carnifex w/Devs Mawloc
Im just hoping I can get Master of ambush. As you can see, Im not sure what to do with the 50 pts...the extra synapse in a synapse thin list can ensure my big gun boat carnifex broods dont stop shooting, but more cover is nice as well. Also being able to grab objectives with the ripper brood is helpful, as this will be all book missions (Which sucks).
Looks good. I would personally drop the Rippers Zopes & Mawloc, for a Living Artillery. Looks solid either way. I think with all slots filled up you can't go wrong with Rippers Terms 'or Gargs to fill out points. A bastion might be worth considering as well.
No bastion in my collection or exocrine, I've kinda shied away from those options. Dakkafexes are so satisfying (until they get meltaed, but thats any of our MCs.
Then with the restrictions of size, event rules and collection, I'd say you're at the best you can be for this style of list!you may even never end up going back to single Fed units if you see the Carnage that comes from Infiltrating Double Fexes and something else. Speaking of which, a third turn one MoA threat worth considering like a Tyrannofex over a Mawloc.
Iechine wrote: Ive got about an hour and a half to decide what to take to a local 1500pt tourny. Im stuck with 1 force org and no allies because Tyranids.
Flyrant w/devs Electro
Flyrant w/devs Electro
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Zoanthrope (Or venom, or ripper swarm)
Ripper w/ds
ripper w/ds
ripper w/ds
2x Carnifex w/Devs 2x Carnifex w/Devs Mawloc
Im just hoping I can get Master of ambush. As you can see, Im not sure what to do with the 50 pts...the extra synapse in a synapse thin list can ensure my big gun boat carnifex broods dont stop shooting, but more cover is nice as well. Also being able to grab objectives with the ripper brood is helpful, as this will be all book missions (Which sucks).
Good list. It would be better if you dropped 2 Rippers for 1 Unit of HGaunts, and 1 Unit of TGaunts. Use them to bubblewrap the Carnifexes and Venom as they advance. I would keep the 2nd Zoey. Without it, your Carnifexes are likely to take alot of instinctive behavior tests.
This has nothing to do with Tactics, but I have an update on my Tyranids . Finished a Harpy and a Crone almost done with the Hierodule. Here is some pics
Thought I'd post my upcoming tournament list up here - going to a 1500 point, no restrictions (so, lords of war, FW, etc) tourney in a few weeks. Anything I should alter? I do not have any winged Tyrants, just so you know
I ran proxying 2 Dimas in a game yesterday. I was running a nidzilla list against MSU space wolves using BAO mission #1. The Dimas won every combat they got into. One did some damage to a Land Raider, but a dakkafex was needed to kill it. I did make use of the leap rule several times. Allowing me to get shorter charges or in one case leaping over a small squad to get a charge on the squad behind them controlling the objective.
So my 400 points of Dimas killed roughly 200 points of marines and Rhinos. Every other MC did better except for the Tervigon who only manage to kill 4 marines, and strip 2 HP off a Rhino. Both Dimas died like other MCs. One failed a 5" charge with fleet. Delightful.
Overall, the Dimas were an utter failure in this game. I got outscored, and nearly tabled, because the faster wolves were able to generally stay away from the Dimas until they could kill them. Nearly every turn there was one Dima who just ran, and was unable to contribute in any other way. They were the last units my opponents killed (my flyrant wasn't really killable) because they were the least threatening.
At no point was I glad I brought a Dima. At every point in the game, a Dakkafex, TFex or Exocrine would have out performed them. Even a Stone-Crusher might have been better because at least it is a little harder to kill with plasma. I had pretty low expectations, and they failed to even meet those.
If we had used straight up Maelstrom missions, the Dimas would have done better, but I still have a hard time justifying bringing them over a dakkafex.
I'll run another game with the nidzilla list against a different list, and also will give JY2's Flying circus + Dima Lists a shot at some point.
I'll be interested in the results, however I wouldn't break your back trying to make one of our dexes worst units at all feasible, logic behind the Dima says that this is the experience you should have against anything but Orks n close range marines.
tag8833 wrote: I ran proxying 2 Dimas in a game yesterday. I was running a nidzilla list against MSU space wolves using BAO mission #1. The Dimas won every combat they got into. One did some damage to a Land Raider, but a dakkafex was needed to kill it. I did make use of the leap rule several times. Allowing me to get shorter charges or in one case leaping over a small squad to get a charge on the squad behind them controlling the objective.
So my 400 points of Dimas killed roughly 200 points of marines and Rhinos. Every other MC did better except for the Tervigon who only manage to kill 4 marines, and strip 2 HP off a Rhino. Both Dimas died like other MCs. One failed a 5" charge with fleet. Delightful.
Overall, the Dimas were an utter failure in this game. I got outscored, and nearly tabled, because the faster wolves were able to generally stay away from the Dimas until they could kill them. Nearly every turn there was one Dima who just ran, and was unable to contribute in any other way. They were the last units my opponents killed (my flyrant wasn't really killable) because they were the least threatening.
At no point was I glad I brought a Dima. At every point in the game, a Dakkafex, TFex or Exocrine would have out performed them. Even a Stone-Crusher might have been better because at least it is a little harder to kill with plasma. I had pretty low expectations, and they failed to even meet those.
If we had used straight up Maelstrom missions, the Dimas would have done better, but I still have a hard time justifying bringing them over a dakkafex.
I'll run another game with the nidzilla list against a different list, and also will give JY2's Flying circus + Dima Lists a shot at some point.
Thanks for sharing.
Yeah, the performance of your dimas is to be expected, especially against MSU marines. More often than not, they'll probably not kill back enough units to justify their costs. Then again, it really depends on the army you go up against. Against more Elitist armies, they have a better chance to make back their points and then some. You get them into combat against riptides, wraithknights, leman russ squadrons and some of the more expensive units and you will see them pull their weight. But against non-Elitist armies, you will see performance such as this as they kill 1 rhino and perhaps a combat squad before dying.
But that is not their true worth. Their true value is in area-denial and also in letting the rest of your army live a little longer and to do more damage. If you are running dakkafexes and dakkarants, then that's a lot of additional damage you will be dishing out each turn.
Also, you can expect this type of result between a ground-&-pound Tyranid list against any mobile, shooty army. If they have the ability to get away and keep on shooting, then bugs are going to have a hard time. But I guarantee you that if you ran the dimas supported by flyrants instead, you will have an easier time, especially against the more mobile armies.
I haven't really done much to him yet, besides to glue on some legs from an old action figure of mine. Now need to figure out how to convert the rest.
This picture is more to show the size and scale of the dima compared to some of the other models.
That is interesting. I had been looking at putting a Tervigon's legs on a Tyrant to convert mine. Is the body more Trygon sized? Isn't the base supposed to be 60 mm, aka Tyrant sized?
Yeah, the body is more trygon-sized than tyrant-sized, though tervigon legs might be a good idea.
SHUPPET wrote: Very nice Dima jy! And off-topic, I just saw your Crons for the first time thanks to checking out your photbucket and they are absolutely impeccable
Thanks! Some of them were done by Frontline Gaming and some by myself. I've got way too large a collection to paint by myself.
Looks like your dima is hunched over just slightly? The model I saw (my friend InControl already has one) was just slightly shorter than the wraithknight, but it seems as if his was modeled standing a little more upright.
Iechine wrote: No bastion in my collection or exocrine, I've kinda shied away from those options. Dakkafexes are so satisfying (until they get meltaed, but thats any of our MCs.
Yeah, you can't go wrong with the dakkafexes. Shooty tyranids > assault tyranids and IMO dakkafexes are better TAC units than exocrines.
Gray1378 wrote: This has nothing to do with Tactics, but I have an update on my Tyranids . Finished a Harpy and a Crone almost done with the Hierodule. Here is some pics
Very nice!
One of these days, I'm going to have to get myself an airbrush and learn how to use it.
I like it! Very original and I love the genestealer-esque feeder tendrils.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SBG wrote: Thought I'd post my upcoming tournament list up here - going to a 1500 point, no restrictions (so, lords of war, FW, etc) tourney in a few weeks. Anything I should alter? I do not have any winged Tyrants, just so you know
I am thinking of swapping out one Carnifex with 3 single Zoeys, for the extra Synapse... worth considering?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm at 1498 points, either way.
You're a little light on synapse in the middle. Also, if you are running a walkrant, then I recommend 1 or 2 tyrant guards.
Yeah, I'd recommend dropping 1 dakkafex for more support. Perhaps 1-2 tyrant guards and 1-2 zoanthropes. Maybe even another venomthrope if you have one. You don't need 3 single zoans. That is perhaps slightly overkill.
Also, if you can, convert your walkrant into a flyrant. That is really the best upgrade you can do.
Looks like your dima is hunched over just slightly? The model I saw (my friend InControl already has one) was just slightly shorter than the wraithknight, but it seems as if his was modeled standing a little more upright.
Should have clarified, thats not my photo, but from a google search. I would never own such a hideous bass guitar.
That's one hell of a heirodule! The model is awkward and often looks overdone just by painting it how you would the rest of your army, I think it requires a minimalistic approach but your paint scheme suits it very well!
Automatically Appended Next Post: @jy2 c'mon now, you are reaching with that defense of the Dima, Marines are a bad match up? Space Wolves especially any packing a Raider are one of the best match ups possible for the Dima, after Orks, other Tyranids, and BA. You really think you are going to see better returns vs Riptide Tau or Wraithknight Eldar? This is why you need to apply your damage and look at the scenario - yes Dima stands a better chance to make his points back in CC with a Riptide or a Wraithknight, but the stupidity it would take to let this situation come about means the match was won before you even deployed.
Thanks guys. Ill post more as they are done!! The dima is a lot better than people think. It will crush most match ups. Especially as ew is not as prevalent.
tag8833 wrote: I ran proxying 2 Dimas in a game yesterday.
Spoiler:
I was running a nidzilla list against MSU space wolves using BAO mission #1. The Dimas won every combat they got into. One did some damage to a Land Raider, but a dakkafex was needed to kill it. I did make use of the leap rule several times. Allowing me to get shorter charges or in one case leaping over a small squad to get a charge on the squad behind them controlling the objective.
So my 400 points of Dimas killed roughly 200 points of marines and Rhinos. Every other MC did better except for the Tervigon who only manage to kill 4 marines, and strip 2 HP off a Rhino. Both Dimas died like other MCs. One failed a 5" charge with fleet. Delightful.
Overall, the Dimas were an utter failure in this game. I got outscored, and nearly tabled, because the faster wolves were able to generally stay away from the Dimas until they could kill them. Nearly every turn there was one Dima who just ran, and was unable to contribute in any other way. They were the last units my opponents killed (my flyrant wasn't really killable) because they were the least threatening.
At no point was I glad I brought a Dima. At every point in the game, a Dakkafex, TFex or Exocrine would have out performed them. Even a Stone-Crusher might have been better because at least it is a little harder to kill with plasma. I had pretty low expectations, and they failed to even meet those.
If we had used straight up Maelstrom missions, the Dimas would have done better, but I still have a hard time justifying bringing them over a dakkafex.
I'll run another game with the nidzilla list against a different list, and also will give JY2's Flying circus + Dima Lists a shot at some point.
Yeah, the performance of your dimas is to be expected, especially against MSU marines. More often than not, they'll probably not kill back enough units to justify their costs. Then again, it really depends on the army you go up against. Against more Elitist armies, they have a better chance to make back their points and then some. You get them into combat against riptides, wraithknights, leman russ squadrons and some of the more expensive units and you will see them pull their weight. But against non-Elitist armies, you will see performance such as this as they kill 1 rhino and perhaps a combat squad before dying.
But that is not their true worth. Their true value is in area-denial and also in letting the rest of your army live a little longer and to do more damage. If you are running dakkafexes and dakkarants, then that's a lot of additional damage you will be dishing out each turn.
Also, you can expect this type of result between a ground-&-pound Tyranid list against any mobile, shooty army. If they have the ability to get away and keep on shooting, then bugs are going to have a hard time. But I guarantee you that if you ran the dimas supported by flyrants instead, you will have an easier time, especially against the more mobile armies.
I Tried to use them as area denial, but the mission made that very difficult because there was very little incentive for my opponent to do much besides evade my MC's and hang out along the board edges. I was disappointed with the BOA mission design because of how heavily it favored gun line style armies over area control style armies.
All of that being said, if I dropped the 2 Dimas for 2 Dakkafexes, and played that game at a 100 point disadvantage, I would have won that game. MSU-marines aren't that bad of a matchup for tyranids. Just a really bad machup for low-mobility assault only units. The dakkafex has 18" shooting making it much harder to avoid, and it is still powerful in assault. It suffers from a lack of range and mobility just like the Dima, but has an actual way to contribute to the game other than dying.
I'm not sure I really understand your bullet magnet argument. 1) they were the last MC's to die (besides my flyrant who was airborne). 2) If I ran Dakkafexes instead they are shooting at my dakkafexes instead, but so what. A Dakkafex is 2/3 as tough as a Dima and 2/3 the cost. So isn't a Dakkafex a better bullet magnet?
I'm still incredibly doubtful that they will ever make it to assault against Riptides, Wraith Knights, or Lemun Russes (though this is easier). Besides incompetence, why would a player with one of those things allow this to happen? All 3 of those units are faster, and can force a turn 3 or later charge. All 3 come from armies that can easily kill a Dima with shooting (I.G. sometimes has a harder time). So why wouldn't they kill dakkafexes, dakkaflyrants or support units on turn 1 & 2, and then the Dima on turn 3?
I will play them against a 2-3 wraith knight army eventually (likely alongside Endless Swarm).
I'm not even going to try bringing them against Riptides. I don't need to play that game to know the result. I lose big. Here's the batrep. Turn 1, A flyrant and another MC dies, I kill 4-5 marker lights. Turn 2, A 2nd flyrant, and a Dima dies possibly another MC, I kill 1-2 Suites. Turn 3, The last Dima dies and any remaining MC's I kill 6-10 fire warriors. Tau wins.
@jy2 c'mon now, you are reaching with that defense of the Dima, Marines are a bad match up? Space Wolves especially any packing a Raider are one of the best match ups possible for the Dima, after Orks, other Tyranids, and BA. You really think you are going to see better returns vs Riptide Tau or Wraithknight Eldar? This is why you need to apply your damage and look at the scenario - yes Dima stands a better chance to make his points back in CC with a Riptide or a Wraithknight, but the stupidity it would take to let this situation come about means the match was won before you even deployed.
Please re-read my post. I never said that Marines were a bad matchup. What I said is that mobile, shooty armies are a bad matchup for ground-&-pount Tyranid armies (like a nidzilla build). Although tag played against MSU marines, the problem wasn't really the marines. It was because he was playing against a space wolf army who had the mobility to stay away from his units and then kite them to death with shooting. Wraithknights are not an issue for the dima. He'll keep the WK away from the main Tyranid force. However, the problem isn't the WK. It is the wave serpents which will shoot down the dima. As for the riptide, that is another mobile shooty unit that can play keep away from the dima. Against these types of army builds, you need the flyrant more than ever to try to draw their fire/force their attention. It is no doubt a rough matchup, but if the dima can get into combat with these elitist units, he stands a better chance of making back his points than if he were to go up against MSU armies.
tag8833 wrote: I ran proxying 2 Dimas in a game yesterday. [spoiler]I was running a nidzilla list against MSU space wolves using BAO mission #1. The Dimas won every combat they got into. One did some damage to a Land Raider, but a dakkafex was needed to kill it. I did make use of the leap rule several times. Allowing me to get shorter charges or in one case leaping over a small squad to get a charge on the squad behind them controlling the objective.
So my 400 points of Dimas killed roughly 200 points of marines and Rhinos. Every other MC did better except for the Tervigon who only manage to kill 4 marines, and strip 2 HP off a Rhino. Both Dimas died like other MCs. One failed a 5" charge with fleet. Delightful.
Overall, the Dimas were an utter failure in this game. I got outscored, and nearly tabled, because the faster wolves were able to generally stay away from the Dimas until they could kill them. Nearly every turn there was one Dima who just ran, and was unable to contribute in any other way. They were the last units my opponents killed (my flyrant wasn't really killable) because they were the least threatening.
At no point was I glad I brought a Dima. At every point in the game, a Dakkafex, TFex or Exocrine would have out performed them. Even a Stone-Crusher might have been better because at least it is a little harder to kill with plasma. I had pretty low expectations, and they failed to even meet those.
If we had used straight up Maelstrom missions, the Dimas would have done better, but I still have a hard time justifying bringing them over a dakkafex.
I'll run another game with the nidzilla list against a different list, and also will give JY2's Flying circus + Dima Lists a shot at some point.
Yeah, the performance of your dimas is to be expected, especially against MSU marines. More often than not, they'll probably not kill back enough units to justify their costs. Then again, it really depends on the army you go up against. Against more Elitist armies, they have a better chance to make back their points and then some. You get them into combat against riptides, wraithknights, leman russ squadrons and some of the more expensive units and you will see them pull their weight. But against non-Elitist armies, you will see performance such as this as they kill 1 rhino and perhaps a combat squad before dying.
But that is not their true worth. Their true value is in area-denial and also in letting the rest of your army live a little longer and to do more damage. If you are running dakkafexes and dakkarants, then that's a lot of additional damage you will be dishing out each turn.
Also, you can expect this type of result between a ground-&-pound Tyranid list against any mobile, shooty army. If they have the ability to get away and keep on shooting, then bugs are going to have a hard time. But I guarantee you that if you ran the dimas supported by flyrants instead, you will have an easier time, especially against the more mobile armies.
I Tried to use them as area denial, but the mission made that very difficult because there was very little incentive for my opponent to do much besides evade my MC's and hang out along the board edges. I was disappointed with the BOA mission design because of how heavily it favored gun line style armies over area control style armies.
All of that being said, if I dropped the 2 Dimas for 2 Dakkafexes, and played that game at a 100 point disadvantage, I would have won that game. MSU-marines aren't that bad of a matchup for tyranids. Just a really bad machup for low-mobility assault only units. The dakkafex has 18" shooting making it much harder to avoid, and it is still powerful in assault. It suffers from a lack of range and mobility just like the Dima, but has an actual way to contribute to the game other than dying.
I'm not sure I really understand your bullet magnet argument. 1) they were the last MC's to die (besides my flyrant who was airborne). 2) If I ran Dakkafexes instead they are shooting at my dakkafexes instead, but so what. A Dakkafex is 2/3 as tough as a Dima and 2/3 the cost. So isn't a Dakkafex a better bullet magnet?
I'm still incredibly doubtful that they will ever make it to assault against Riptides, Wraith Knights, or Lemun Russes (though this is easier). Besides incompetence, why would a player with one of those things allow this to happen? All 3 of those units are faster, and can force a turn 3 or later charge. All 3 come from armies that can easily kill a Dima with shooting (I.G. sometimes has a harder time). So why wouldn't they kill dakkafexes, dakkaflyrants or support units on turn 1 & 2, and then the Dima on turn 3?
I will play them against a 2-3 wraith knight army eventually (likely alongside Endless Swarm).
I'm not even going to try bringing them against Riptides. I don't need to play that game to know the result. I lose big. Here's the batrep. Turn 1, A flyrant and another MC dies, I kill 4-5 marker lights. Turn 2, A 2nd flyrant, and a Dima dies possibly another MC, I kill 1-2 Suites. Turn 3, The last Dima dies and any remaining MC's I kill 6-10 fire warriors. Tau wins.
While the dimas were a problem in your matchup, the real problem wasn't just limited to the dimas. It was basically your entire army didn't have the mobility to reach your opponents to do enough damage. BTW, the BAO missions don't really favor the gunline army. Rather, it rewards the more mobile army. Mobility is the new meta and even the gunlines are evolving. Now they are what you call mobile firepower armies. Just like our bugs are evolving into mobile firepower armies as well (i.e. with our flyrants and even with Onslaughted or Master of Ambush dakkafexes). Mobile firepower is the new meta. The static gunline is a dead build in competitive play, but that is a topic for another day.
As with regards to dakkafexes over the dimas, I don't disagree with you. Dakkafexes are really good units and IMO, shooty bugs > fighty bugs. However, the premise for my philosophy isn't whether dakkafexes are better or exocrines are better or FMC's are better or whether dimas are better. Rather, it is that the dima is still a usable unit in the right Tyranid list. He isn't total crap and I can see a use for him, even if it is more of a niche role than as an all-around contributor. As a matter of fact, I think he has the potential to actually shine in the right list. Unfortunately, a ground-&-pound nidzilla list isn't it.
While the dima may seem scary to the newbie, the fact of the matter is that he is actually a low-priority target to the more experienced player, just as the Swarmlord is somewhat of a low-priority target. The problem is that as great as dakkafexes are, they are still too slow against a decent shooting army. So armies like Tau, mechdar, AV13 necrons, Dark Eldar, whatever....can take their time to deal with the dakkafexes. After that, then they still have ample time to deal with the dimas last. However, throw in some flyrants (at least 2) and now you've got a unit that will force their immediate attention. No gamer in their right minds would ignore a flyrant in their backfield to try to shoot down a dima that is 2 turns away from doing any damage. Moreover, flyrants are much more resilient than the dakkafexes and so would draw much more firepower from the enemy. Thus, in this type of list where you have fast, mobile threats, the dimas actually have a much better chance of making it into combat and doing some damage. So whereas the inexperienced player may use their resources to take out the dimas first, the actual fire magnets in the army are your flyrants and they are the ones who will give the dimas a chance to make it into combat, where they will shine.
I'd be interested in hearing your experiences and comparisons after trying out a list like mine (with the quad-flyrants).
I think it will be a fair test of your proposed Dima usage. It would probably have beat the Space Wolves and their complete lack of AA, but I'll run it against Wave Serpents or something.
You're a little light on synapse in the middle. Also, if you are running a walkrant, then I recommend 1 or 2 tyrant guards.
Yeah, I'd recommend dropping 1 dakkafex for more support. Perhaps 1-2 tyrant guards and 1-2 zoanthropes. Maybe even another venomthrope if you have one. You don't need 3 single zoans. That is perhaps slightly overkill.
Also, if you can, convert your walkrant into a flyrant. That is really the best upgrade you can do.
Good call - I think that losing a Dakkafex for 1 Tyrant Guard and two lone Zoanthropes is worthwhile, and that also means less painting... Everyone wins! Thanks Jim. I've been eyeing up a Flyrant kit, I'll put more thought into it. Having 4 walkrants has discouraged me until now...
Ive got a tourny practice game on Thursday against a tailored Dark Eldar list so I can fight a hard counter to my list. Double CAD and FW allowed. Im going to try what everyone has suggested with my list and drop some AG's for a ten termagant screen.
Im expecting a pretty much all bike and venom list, but I know he isnt taking a knight or eldar ally. This list is not likely to be encountered at an event like Mechanicon, but its also a traditional tough matchup and Im not sure that Ive ever take on DE and won.
Iechine wrote: Ive got a tourny practice game on Thursday against a tailored Dark Eldar list so I can fight a hard counter to my list. Double CAD and FW allowed. Im going to try what everyone has suggested with my list and drop some AG's for a ten termagant screen.
Im expecting a pretty much all bike and venom list, but I know he isnt taking a knight or eldar ally. This list is not likely to be encountered at an event like Mechanicon, but its also a traditional tough matchup and Im not sure that Ive ever take on DE and won.
Really good list. I approve. If you wanted to you could drop the non-DS rippers, and upgrade the Mawloc to an Exocrine. The Extra 10 points could upgrade the TGaunts to HGaunts which are a better screener, because the units they are screening don't catch them.
Another approach would be to drop something for a Bastion with a Void Shield and barricades which would help you out alot vs white scars.
Gray1378 wrote: That looks like a nasty list. Lots of armies would have a hard time dealing with 4 flyrants lol.
I personally believe that Flyrants are the workhorse of our entire codex. They're durable, come with psychic powers, provide synapse, have good solid shooting and still pose a threat to smaller units in melee.
To top it off the MoA warlord trait works nicely with them too, especially if you get first turn - infiltrate your flyrants. Turn 1 - fly forward at full speed. If your opponent has even deployed slightly forward then it's rear armour for everyone!
Did that to an IG Leman Russ heavy list a few weeks ago. He was not impressed by two flyrants disposing of three tanks in turn 1 (His basilisk and his two punishers. Oops.)
I think it will be a fair test of your proposed Dima usage. It would probably have beat the Space Wolves and their complete lack of AA, but I'll run it against Wave Serpents or something.
No worries about the flyrants. 3 is actually plenty against all but the most extreme of armies.
My only recommendation is that I probably wouldn't take 2 crones. They are no longer the threat that they used to be, both in shooting and assault. I'd recommend swapping one out for gargoyles or a dakkafex or a mawloc. Just 1 crone is good enough as a distraction unit, because they are pretty much going to be ignored by most experienced opponents unless your opponent is running infantry with 4+ saves or worse.
You're a little light on synapse in the middle. Also, if you are running a walkrant, then I recommend 1 or 2 tyrant guards.
Yeah, I'd recommend dropping 1 dakkafex for more support. Perhaps 1-2 tyrant guards and 1-2 zoanthropes. Maybe even another venomthrope if you have one. You don't need 3 single zoans. That is perhaps slightly overkill.
Also, if you can, convert your walkrant into a flyrant. That is really the best upgrade you can do.
Good call - I think that losing a Dakkafex for 1 Tyrant Guard and two lone Zoanthropes is worthwhile, and that also means less painting... Everyone wins! Thanks Jim. I've been eyeing up a Flyrant kit, I'll put more thought into it. Having 4 walkrants has discouraged me until now...
Looks like a winner. Good luck!
Iechine wrote: Ive got a tourny practice game on Thursday against a tailored Dark Eldar list so I can fight a hard counter to my list. Double CAD and FW allowed. Im going to try what everyone has suggested with my list and drop some AG's for a ten termagant screen.
Im expecting a pretty much all bike and venom list, but I know he isnt taking a knight or eldar ally. This list is not likely to be encountered at an event like Mechanicon, but its also a traditional tough matchup and Im not sure that Ive ever take on DE and won.
You'll do fine. The meta has shifted and DE are no longer the hard-counter to our bugs like they used to be. As a matter of fact, nowadays, they will struggle against the likes of our flyrants. 4 flyrants would actually be overkill against them.
One thing to keep in mind is this. If your opponent prioritizes his targets properly, your malanthrope would probably die early. In this battle, your flyrants will be your all-stars and they are the ones who will win you the game.
Also, beware of DE vehicles with Night Shields. They basically subtract 6" from your shooting range, meaning devourers will only have 12" range against them. That means your dakkafexes will be impotent initially and you will really have to rely on your flyrants to do the killings. Make sure to take out his venoms first if he is running venom-spam. That is a double-whammy for him. First of all, it takes out a vehicle with 12 poisoned shots. Secondly, it takes out an Objective Secured transport. As long as your malanthrope is alive, dark lances won't do much so forget about the ravagers and focus on taking out any and all venoms.
Gray1378 wrote: That looks like a nasty list. Lots of armies would have a hard time dealing with 4 flyrants lol.
I personally believe that Flyrants are the workhorse of our entire codex. They're durable, come with psychic powers, provide synapse, have good solid shooting and still pose a threat to smaller units in melee.
To top it off the MoA warlord trait works nicely with them too, especially if you get first turn - infiltrate your flyrants. Turn 1 - fly forward at full speed. If your opponent has even deployed slightly forward then it's rear armour for everyone!
Did that to an IG Leman Russ heavy list a few weeks ago. He was not impressed by two flyrants disposing of three tanks in turn 1 (His basilisk and his two punishers. Oops.)
Sometimes, it just isn't fair if shooty armies get MoA and they go 1st. You think heavy armor will save you? Guess again and eat some of my electroshock grubs while you're at it! Lol.
BlaxicanX wrote: Out of curiosity, what's the sudden craze with rippers? For the longest time they were considered gak compared to 'gaunts.
Iechine wrote: Gaining Objective secured and to a lesser extent maelstrom missions benefiting from DS'ing troops.
Right. What Iechine said.
In addition, rippers give you a lot of flexibility, which is the real reason why I take them. With gants, you know where they will be....either in your deployment zone or coming in from it. With rippers, you have the flexibility to come in anywhere (and with an ObSec unit) to contest/claim an objective right away. With gants, good luck getting them to your opponent's objectives or to his backfield. This is particularly useful in Maelstrom objectives.
Finally, rippers have the advantage of not needing Synapse as much as the other Tyranid gribblies. Shoot down my synapse and my rippers can still function. However, with gants, they have a good chance to run away.
BlaxicanX wrote: Out of curiosity, what's the sudden craze with rippers? For the longest time they were considered gak compared to 'gaunts.
Objective Secured
Deep Striking
Fearless - so less need of a synapse babysitter
Smaller profile so easier to get in cover.
Swarms - so ignore difficult terrain completely. (MTC is nice on termagants but ignoring it altogether helps too)
Of course there's downsides...Feed being one of them and in a game where the previous meta was a flood of multi shot S6+ weapons (and still is for the most part) being T3 and IDable is another.
Really, it's more the fact they became super scoring.
Fearless, multiple wounds, multiple attacks and able to get decent cover saves or LOS blocking for their profile - stick them on an objective and good luck getting them off!
Sometimes, it just isn't fair if shooty armies get MoA and they go 1st. You think heavy armor will save you? Guess again and eat some of my electroshock grubs while you're at it! Lol.
Best bit was the guy was one of the ones from the Manchester lot who came across for the charity tournament. His exact words were 'Hey, how come our Tyranid players don't do this and complain their army sucks?'
Turns out the Manchester Tyranid meta was still on assault gribblies. I gave them some pointers to give to the guy after they got back so he would stop complaining his army sucks! (And yes, this included - Trygons and Raveners are terrible. I only have them here because I wanted to field a fully painted army!)
Seriously, I don't think Tyranids came out that bad. I'll admit that we have some right stinkers in our codex and from Forge World but we also have some real gems.
Unfortunately we came out just after the power spike of Tau-Eldar - you know, that point where someone hauls in the rules writing department and says 'Hey, guys, this gak is broken, tone it down'.
We still do well - we shine in missions where we can force the enemy to come to us (go go Maelstrom!), we have a potent formation still in Skyblight - sadly a lot of our other formations lose some of their punch with Objective Secured (if only Manufactorum Stealers or Endless Swarm had OS...)
I think it will be a fair test of your proposed Dima usage. It would probably have beat the Space Wolves and their complete lack of AA, but I'll run it against Wave Serpents or something.
No worries about the flyrants. 3 is actually plenty against all but the most extreme of armies.
My only recommendation is that I probably wouldn't take 2 crones. They are no longer the threat that they used to be, both in shooting and assault. I'd recommend swapping one out for gargoyles or a dakkafex or a mawloc. Just 1 crone is good enough as a distraction unit, because they are pretty much going to be ignored by most experienced opponents unless your opponent is running infantry with 4+ saves or worse.
Crones are useful against mech as well. And they can keep up with flyrants better than Dakkafexes, and are more survivable. I was worried that dropping a Crone for a Dakkafex would turn this into an army that threatened in waves. Turn one: Flyrants. Turn two: Dakkafex. Turn three: Dima, and thus my opponent's target priority is simplified.
At some point I'm going to run the Dima against Drop Pod marines and show what they are really capable of. But I've been beating up on the best Drop Pod player I know for the last 6-7 games so I've got to tank one against him (Hive Guard and Lictors) or else he won't feel good about playing me. A similar situation with the Best Ork player I know. My plan there is to run flying circus, but let him know ahead of time and he can bring out the Tractor guns.
Dima will do well against drop pods or worst case scenario just be a slightly expensive target for the alpha but no massive loss, and will make up for it in potential to cause rek.
But as you said, drop pods are an ideal match up for Nids anyway, just like the other match ups Dima will perform well in like Orks, n Assaulty marines of any variant (BA, CSM bike blob, Etc.) as well as anything close range focused at all really, Nids play the best against them. I actually think Orks are more balanced and one of the best match ups in the game.
Speaking of excellent match ups, how many people have experienced the Nid vs Nid mirror match? My word this is a good fun & fair match up and almost everything in the codex is playable in it (maybe not Trygon Swarmlord or Pyrovore, but everything else lol). Far better match up than many of the other mirror matches I can think of, Tau, Eldar, guard, power armour, Crons, these ones all pretty streamlined when VS'ing themselves IMO, there are some other good ones (Orks, daemons, Dark Eldar) but I think for the most part Nid vs Nid is one of the most internally balanced and dynamic match ups possible with their being no clear best pick models in this match up with different opposing lists giving wind to different units of your own choosing, and the nature of the match up breathing life into many different units. All this aside I still think Orks vs Nids is all this and MORE, but I think the fact that Nids does this in the mirror match is pretty awesome.
Looks like your dima is hunched over just slightly? The model I saw (my friend InControl already has one) was just slightly shorter than the wraithknight, but it seems as if his was modeled standing a little more upright.
Should have clarified, thats not my photo, but from a google search. I would never own such a hideous bass guitar.
Lol. Should've known that those weren't your color schemes.
Sometimes, it just isn't fair if shooty armies get MoA and they go 1st. You think heavy armor will save you? Guess again and eat some of my electroshock grubs while you're at it! Lol.
Best bit was the guy was one of the ones from the Manchester lot who came across for the charity tournament. His exact words were 'Hey, how come our Tyranid players don't do this and complain their army sucks?'
Turns out the Manchester Tyranid meta was still on assault gribblies. I gave them some pointers to give to the guy after they got back so he would stop complaining his army sucks! (And yes, this included - Trygons and Raveners are terrible. I only have them here because I wanted to field a fully painted army!)
Seriously, I don't think Tyranids came out that bad. I'll admit that we have some right stinkers in our codex and from Forge World but we also have some real gems.
Unfortunately we came out just after the power spike of Tau-Eldar - you know, that point where someone hauls in the rules writing department and says 'Hey, guys, this gak is broken, tone it down'.
We still do well - we shine in missions where we can force the enemy to come to us (go go Maelstrom!), we have a potent formation still in Skyblight - sadly a lot of our other formations lose some of their punch with Objective Secured (if only Manufactorum Stealers or Endless Swarm had OS...)
Awesome! Glad you could spread the gospel to some down-and-out bug player. The Hive Mind reaches out to its own and they either evolve or get re-assimilated back into the Tyranid genetic pool.
Crones are useful against mech as well. And they can keep up with flyrants better than Dakkafexes, and are more survivable. I was worried that dropping a Crone for a Dakkafex would turn this into an army that threatened in waves. Turn one: Flyrants. Turn two: Dakkafex. Turn three: Dima, and thus my opponent's target priority is simplified.
At some point I'm going to run the Dima against Drop Pod marines and show what they are really capable of. But I've been beating up on the best Drop Pod player I know for the last 6-7 games so I've got to tank one against him (Hive Guard and Lictors) or else he won't feel good about playing me. A similar situation with the Best Ork player I know. My plan there is to run flying circus, but let him know ahead of time and he can bring out the Tractor guns.
Fair enough.
Good luck!
SHUPPET wrote: Dima will do well against drop pods or worst case scenario just be a slightly expensive target for the alpha but no massive loss, and will make up for it in potential to cause rek.
But as you said, drop pods are an ideal match up for Nids anyway, just like the other match ups Dima will perform well in like Orks, n Assaulty marines of any variant (BA, CSM bike blob, Etc.) as well as anything close range focused at all really, Nids play the best against them. I actually think Orks are more balanced and one of the best match ups in the game.
Speaking of excellent match ups, how many people have experienced the Nid vs Nid mirror match? My word this is a good fun & fair match up and almost everything in the codex is playable in it (maybe not Trygon Swarmlord or Pyrovore, but everything else lol). Far better match up than many of the other mirror matches I can think of, Tau, Eldar, guard, power armour, Crons, these ones all pretty streamlined when VS'ing themselves IMO, there are some other good ones (Orks, daemons, Dark Eldar) but I think for the most part Nid vs Nid is one of the most internally balanced and dynamic match ups possible with their being no clear best pick models in this match up with different opposing lists giving wind to different units of your own choosing, and the nature of the match up breathing life into many different units. All this aside I still think Orks vs Nids is all this and MORE, but I think the fact that Nids does this in the mirror match is pretty awesome.
That's actually a good idea. Honestly, I haven't really played against another bug player with my bugs ever since the new bug codex came out in 6E.
I should get a game in against Geoff "InControl" Robinson of Team Zero Comp. He beat me out for Best Tyranid player at the BAO just recently. I think I should return the favor. Triple flyrants vs triple flyrants. His actual dima versus my converted dima. I think it's going to be quite fun!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just had an ephiphany. For my next battle (against Frankie and his thunderwolves of Frontline Gaming), I am going to try out this list at 1850 (with self-allying allowed but no double-CAD):
1850 Hive Fleet Pandora
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Malanthrope
3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers - DS
Dima
Dima
25x Gargoyles
Mawloc
Bastion
Allies:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
3x Rippers
25x Gargoyles
Gargoyles are fast enough that they are a threat to pin down units, thus allowing the dimas to try to make it into combat. And with 5+ shrouded cover even in the open (or 3+ cover behind my flyrants), gargoyles can be quite sturdy also.
Now the only thing I need to do is to try to convert another Dima. Hopefully I can find more action figures in storage. Lol.
jy2 wrote: Gargoyles are fast enough that they are a threat to pin down units, thus allowing the dimas to try to make it into combat. And with 5+ shrouded cover even in the open (or 3+ cover behind my flyrants), gargoyles can be quite sturdy also.
Gargoyles are outstanding. Great screening unit to keep MC's alive. Great tarpit thanks to blind, and their speed. They can also be fast / Maneuverable enough to put the 1st couple in cover, and conga line the back one or two to get shrouded from a venom / Malan. They are a force-multiplier because not only do the increase the survivability of the rest of your army by screening them but they can also further increase it by charging things that threaten them (like a command squad with plasma, or a Wraith Knight, or a Riptide).
Next to Flyrants, Gargoyles have won me more games than any other unit. A group of 20 are in nearly all of my lists.
What's up guys, loving this thread so far. I have an 1850 double cad tournament next week, this is my list so far. I have 60 points left and I am debating on what to add.
My main contenders were more backfield synapse with warriors or zoanthropes, more defense with a Venomthrope, or more offense with a biovore. Thoughts?
Seriously, I don't think Tyranids came out that bad. I'll admit that we have some right stinkers in our codex and from Forge World but we also have some real gems.
Unfortunately we came out just after the power spike of Tau-Eldar - you know, that point where someone hauls in the rules writing department and says 'Hey, guys, this gak is broken, tone it down'.
I agree, I've said from the start that we got more powerful. I actually think we are the dark horse of the 40k world, the strongest of all the armies that DONT get classified in that Tau-Eldar-Crons-SM-Guard bracket of play, that has a lot of potential to actually outplay opponents (if you build sensibly). Here's a little summary of 6th ed tourney results: http://www.torrentoffire.com/4789/6th-edition-retrospective-reign-of-the-xenos
Interesting stuff!
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said however the codex got worse written with the loss of so much synergy and different styles of play, even if the individual power of units increased enough to make up for it
997Turbo wrote: What's up guys, loving this thread so far. I have an 1850 double cad tournament next week, this is my list so far. I have 60 points left and I am debating on what to add.
My main contenders were more backfield synapse with warriors or zoanthropes, more defense with a Venomthrope, or more offense with a biovore. Thoughts?
Or swap out the 2 Mawloc's for 2 dakkafexes - total 1750 pts
I really like Mawloc's as they are very good at drawing fire after they've popped up and running two of them sounds very appealing to me...
Thoughts?
Well, I am a big fan of twin Mawlocs. If you swap for Dakkafexen, I think you'd also want to find points for bubble wrap. Mawlocs a least get to try something before they get Melta'd or Grav'd) off the table.
I think you'll be a lot happier if you find points for a Veno to babysit the LAN, otherwise counter battery can be an "issue". Oh, I've said it a few times, but...the Warrior Brood for a LAN gets more "bang" from using a Venom Cannon, no change in points, but you more fully exploit the special rule(s).
Read a lot about how standard Nids list lean towards lots of MCs and FMCs which I can see why... they are great. But then deathstars taking out 2 or 3 a turn just demolish the list.
I'm just starting up Nids and looking to get ideas for a good competitive TAC nids list that can handle the field pretty well. Can anyone provide me with a generic mock up? Or is our codex too limiting?
syypher wrote: Read a lot about how standard Nids list lean towards lots of MCs and FMCs which I can see why... they are great. But then deathstars taking out 2 or 3 a turn just demolish the list.
I'm just starting up Nids and looking to get ideas for a good competitive TAC nids list that can handle the field pretty well. Can anyone provide me with a generic mock up? Or is our codex too limiting?
So a basic spine of a list would be
Hive Tyrant, Wings, Duel Devourers, Electrogrubs
Hive Tyrant, Wings, Duel Devourers, Electrogrubs
(Zoans, Malons or Venoms to flavour)
Troops, Rippers or Termagants.
Fast Attack Gargoyles and Crones
Heavy Dakkafexes and Mawlocs
Formations, I used to be a big fan of Skyblight pre 7th, but now I tend to opt for Living Artillery Node so I can max out my heavy spots on Carnifexes and Mawlocs.
syypher wrote: Read a lot about how standard Nids list lean towards lots of MCs and FMCs which I can see why... they are great. But then deathstars taking out 2 or 3 a turn just demolish the list.
I'm just starting up Nids and looking to get ideas for a good competitive TAC nids list that can handle the field pretty well. Can anyone provide me with a generic mock up? Or is our codex too limiting?
So a basic spine of a list would be
Hive Tyrant, Wings, Duel Devourers, Electrogrubs
Hive Tyrant, Wings, Duel Devourers, Electrogrubs
(Zoans, Malons or Venoms to flavour)
Troops, Rippers or Termagants.
Fast Attack Gargoyles and Crones
Heavy Dakkafexes and Mawlocs
Formations, I used to be a big fan of Skyblight pre 7th, but now I tend to opt for Living Artillery Node so I can max out my heavy spots on Carnifexes and Mawlocs.
Last time I played Nids was late 5th... Mawlocs are good? That's AWESOME! I love the model!
I had a fun casual game yesterday with a simple aim - wear off New Model Syndrome on the new T-fex and Stonecrushers I assembled last week. With that aim, here is my 2000pt Nidzilla list:
Walkrant with Devourers, Hive Commander and 1 guard - Catalyst and Onslaught
30 guants with 10 devourers
Tervigon with ESG - Onslaught
3 venomthropes
2 Wrecker Stonecrushers
T-fex with acid spray and ESG
Bio-blast Node:
Warriors
3 Dakkafex
Another T-fex with acid spray and ESG
I was up against a pretty scary Daemon/CSM list, containing:
Nurgle Daemon Prince, Oblits, Khorne/Nurgle daemons, Soul Grinder and some CSM flyer (Storm Eagle I think)
Things got off to a great start when not only did I roll Catalyst for once, but I re-rolled my warlord trait to get Master of Ambush. Combined with Hive Commander it let me outflank the warlord, both units of troops, the Stonecrushers and T-fex. I went first, but early game was fairly uneventful due to the amount of short-ranged and melee units on the field. A bunch of Khorne hounds and heralds tried to engage my Dakkafexes in the centre of the field, only to be betrayed by the Grimoire. They did succeed in inflicting a few wounds and tying up much of my firepower for a couple of turns, but eventually a T-Fex stepped in to quickly settle things.
All my reinforcements arrived promptly on turn 2. Unfortunately the new guys got mixed up, with the Stonecrushers arriving on the side with the Daemon Prince and Plaguebearers, and the T-Fex sheepishly making an appearance on the side with the Soul Grinder. Luckily I was able to choose the most appropriate side for the rest.
And so began a titanic combat where these two mighty creatures... repeatedly failed to land blows on each other for 3 turns. Seriously, Smash with WS3 sucks. That one attack should at least auto-hit or something. The Soul Grinder was eventually victorious and tried his luck by charging the other T-Fex... only to lose a 3/4hp to ESG overwatch. Still, I'm really not looking forward to fighting another one of those in future.
Fresh from killing both Stonecrushers, the Daemon Prince glided into the centre of the field and heroically failed a 6" charge despite fleet. The cure for this kind of embarrassment is many, many shots from Dakkafexes at close range. After weathering several turns of Obliterator fire with Catalyst, my Hive Tyrant finally dropped with the last roll of turn 5.
At the end of turn 5 I was losing by one on victory points despite having a fair portion of my army intact, but managed to roll a 6th turn. After glancing down the Storm Eagle to earn Big Game Hunter and picking up several cards for objectives I already held, the game ended with me winning 12-11. Aside from the warlord, the dead pile consisted of some guants, the new T-fex and Stonecrushers. New Model Syndrome now cured, Mission success!
syypher wrote: Read a lot about how standard Nids list lean towards lots of MCs and FMCs which I can see why... they are great. But then deathstars taking out 2 or 3 a turn just demolish the list.
I'm just starting up Nids and looking to get ideas for a good competitive TAC nids list that can handle the field pretty well. Can anyone provide me with a generic mock up? Or is our codex too limiting?
So a basic spine of a list would be
Hive Tyrant, Wings, Duel Devourers, Electrogrubs
Hive Tyrant, Wings, Duel Devourers, Electrogrubs
(Zoans, Malons or Venoms to flavour)
Troops, Rippers or Termagants.
Fast Attack Gargoyles and Crones
Heavy Dakkafexes and Mawlocs
Formations, I used to be a big fan of Skyblight pre 7th, but now I tend to opt for Living Artillery Node so I can max out my heavy spots on Carnifexes and Mawlocs.
Last time I played Nids was late 5th... Mawlocs are good? That's AWESOME! I love the model!
Mawlocs are good in the MSU meta. A large AP2 template like that which ignores cover? Deletes small units. Remember with placing objectives it alternates so if you want to force some advantages for your Mawlocs make sure some of the objectives are ground level - strike at the objective, ideally around the same time your Tyrants and Crones get to their line and just swamp them for target priority. Tyrant firepower is impressive, Crones actually fare well against the MSU meta (S6 flamer template!) and if you get the right psychic powers onslaught the Dakkafexes for added swamping
Last time I played Nids was late 5th... Mawlocs are good? That's AWESOME! I love the model!
Well... they are cheaper and better.... I still don't think they are 'good'. Or rather, their potential is niche depending on the opponent army, and their performance is random/unreliable.
IOW, its a gamble unit.
If the opponent has good targets, and you roll well, they can be *awesome*, but otherwise, they can end up pretty 'meh'....
Ahh... I see a lot of lists with 1-2 Gargoyle Broods of 20-30. Why take them? So many lists run like 2 ripper swarms and thats it for their troops lol. Wouldn't it be better to invest the Gargoyles points in Tervigon troop choices? Or is that 5th edition thinking? I don't see many people taking Tervigons anymore...
syypher wrote: Ahh... I see a lot of lists with 1-2 Gargoyle Broods of 20-30. Why take them? So many lists run like 2 ripper swarms and thats it for their troops lol. Wouldn't it be better to invest the Gargoyles points in Tervigon troop choices? Or is that 5th edition thinking? I don't see many people taking Tervigons anymore...
Gargoyles are mainly for the screening aspect. Plus a lot of lists tend to run skyblight with smaller broods of objective secured gargoyles. The Tervigon sort of got hit hard for what it does - no shared toxic sacs and glands, harsher result of death and a point increase. He's not terrible but he's a lot of points to put in to a slot that we unfortunately tend to treat as dressing - largely because every other force org slot does more work for us.
syypher wrote: Ahh... I see a lot of lists with 1-2 Gargoyle Broods of 20-30. Why take them? So many lists run like 2 ripper swarms and thats it for their troops lol. Wouldn't it be better to invest the Gargoyles points in Tervigon troop choices? Or is that 5th edition thinking? I don't see many people taking Tervigons anymore...
Tervigons went up 30 points, require 70 more points in gants to make troops, no longer grant poison or furious charge to termagants, their spawns no longer assault when they appear, they no longer have catalyst guaranteed and the result of tervigon death on gants is more brutal. All that was in 6ed and they were still ok.
Final nail in the coffin came with 7ed. Now everything scores but troops in certain detachments get objective secured which is very powerful ability and the reason to take troops in 7ed over other stuff. The issue is spawned gants are not technically in a detachment so are ruled by most to not get objective secured. And troop choices without obsec are just not worth it.
Last time I played Nids was late 5th... Mawlocs are good? That's AWESOME! I love the model!
Well... they are cheaper and better.... I still don't think they are 'good'. Or rather, their potential is niche depending on the opponent army, and their performance is random/unreliable.
IOW, its a gamble unit.
If the opponent has good targets, and you roll well, they can be *awesome*, but otherwise, they can end up pretty 'meh'....
I second this. They are an MC with great mobility, but their penchant to be scatter and be utterly useless had led me to drift away from them in TAC lists. If I'm facing Tau, Mawlocs are in.
Another common TAC list involves living Artillery:
Spoiler:
3 Warriors (Barbed Strangler)
Exocrine
3 Biovores
All weapons gain pinning and blasts / barrages are twin linked.
I think we can all agree that the Dakkaflyrant is the best unit in the codex by a mile, and any list including 2 of those can do ok against many matchups.
Mawloc is great and never wasted points. He really barely even pays for that blast, he's one of the best units in the codex.
I would disagree that Flyrant is one of the best units in the codex. He's the best SYNAPSE unit and most list need 2 (although not all). However he's really expensive and crippling to a build when taking more than the minimum necessary to make it work. I think far too many people rely too much on Flyrants I think 4 is almost a suicide note unless you are running it next to max Crones for an airforce style list.
syypher wrote: Read a lot about how standard Nids list lean towards lots of MCs and FMCs which I can see why... they are great. But then deathstars taking out 2 or 3 a turn just demolish the list.
I'm just starting up Nids and looking to get ideas for a good competitive TAC nids list that can handle the field pretty well. Can anyone provide me with a generic mock up? Or is our codex too limiting?
I've posted a list or three over in Army Lists...my most current thoughts are in From the darkness..(?)
The basic template is in my opinion, one or two Winged Tyrants, two or three force multipliers (Elites most likely), 4 or more Troops (opinions vary) and two or three heavys. Formations are considered more or less mandatory for Tourney play....it's not impossible to win without them, but it is dang hard.
HQ: Winged Tyrant, Hive 240
HQ: as above 240
Zoey Brood, x2 100
Zoey Brood, x2, or solo
Veno Brood, x2, or solo
Troops, several, Termagants are very common, I still use Hormagaunts (as screens) and currently several are using Ripper swarms...
Almost any Heavy choice is a good one just taking three "solo" Dakkafexen will win you games.....
SHUPPET wrote: Mawloc is great and never wasted points. He really barely even pays for that blast, he's one of the best units in the codex.
I would disagree that Flyrant is one of the best units in the codex. He's the best SYNAPSE unit and most list need 2 (although not all). However he's really expensive and crippling to a build when taking more than the minimum necessary to make it work. I think far too many people rely too much on Flyrants I think 4 is almost a suicide note unless you are running it next to max Crones for an airforce style list.
Surely you've had a Mawloc who mishapped and died. I find that about 1/3 scatter when the come in (hitting 0-3 models), and are kill in my opponent's next turn before they can do anything.
This is probably a bit atypical, because I mainly use Mawlocs against Tau these days, and Tau can easily kill 3 MC's per shooting phase, they have few models, and like to hug the board edge. I'm betting that Mawlocs only make their points back 1/5 games for me, but they do score points because of their great mobility, and they are a deterrent that alters the way my opponent plays the game, which can be highly useful.
I think of all units in the Tyranid codex, Mawloc's took the biggest nerf from Smash. In 6th, Mawlocs popped as many vehicles as any other unit I fielded. In 7th they need 2 assaults to pop a Rhino.
Oh well it's still 4 MC attacks if it scatters, with hit & run and reburrow, and the cheapest source of T6 3+ Wounds in the dex, I've never once had it not be worth the points except for the rarer unlucky mishaps (which is the same case for everything with deep strike, except Mawloc at least stands to make points back in the process a lot of times).
I've run 3 Flyrants and Synapse aside, cannot say they have been near as consistent as Locs
Mawlocs come in turn 2-3, then have to worry about scatter, are ineffectual against vehicles or anything in ruins. They have no shooting, and cant assault the turn they come in. On their next turn, they have to choose between 4 WS3 attacks, or reburrow to try TftD again.
They used to be an assault threat against vehicles, but now they can't even do that.
SHUPPET wrote: I've run 3 Flyrants and Synapse aside, cannot say they have been near as consistent as Locs
i run mawlocks and enjoy them, but i cannot get behind this statement. i have not once ever regretted anything about flyrants other than i couldn't fit more in; i cannot say the same about mawlocks.
They need to be run in conjunction with Biovores for the Ruins or even LA. They should assault and tarpit / do a couple of wounds, attempting to H&R and burrow when low health, coming back to claim or nuke again. Multiple Maelocs definitely do a big burst nuke turn 2 so build with units to take advantage of it. Smash nerf affected them the most out of all the playable MCs in our dex so they aren't as great as they were last edition, they are so points effecient tho that it's rare they are ever a complete waste.
i thought that at first too (ref: smash nerf) but really, i think it effected them the least. things that you need S10 for were bad targets for them to begin with. let them stay and slaughter infantry and the occasional light vehicle, which they excel at.
also def. a proponent of multiple mawlocks to get the best out of them/deter the random.
I think it made them a little more versatile with multiple smashes on the charge! You were never forced to attack heavy armor but the option was still there, now it's not. Considering for everything else smash was less than guaranteed to even be relevant, I think it hurt Mawloc the most , but to be fair no more than the FMC assault nerf hurt Crones and harpies. Less so even. I'm still a big advocate of the Loc even if he is objectively worse in 7th it's not crippling, and he was IMO the best unit in the dex in 6th. I ran 3 in practically every list including my main, he was the core of the dex for me for a long time and I probably have used him more than any other unit we have, I feel confident in saying he's still amazing and never a waste.
Anyone prefer to start their Mawlocs on the board? I did this my last game (against a Space Wolves list with a lot of assault elements and a few drop pods) and was pleased as it was able to help provide cover, draw a few pot shots (totally fine with my Mawloc taking a wound a two before it gets a chance to burrow) and even got into assault on turn 1 (I went second), which it, of course, hit and ran out of to allow for a turn 2 burrow.
Not sure do it against gun line armies, but there is something nice about KNOWING when the Mawloc's coming in rather than failing it's reserve roll over and over again (or just forgetting to roll for it, which I've also done). Anyone else starting their Mawlocs on the board?
gigasnail wrote: i thought that at first too (ref: smash nerf) but really, i think it effected them the least. things that you need S10 for were bad targets for them to begin with. let them stay and slaughter infantry and the occasional light vehicle, which they excel at.
also def. a proponent of multiple mawlocks to get the best out of them/deter the random.
They used to get 3 Attacks when they Smashed. Giving up 1 attack to let them pop AV14 made them a very, very effective anti-armor unit. Plus they could catch vehicles, because of their mobility advantage. But a key thing that I noted. They used to be able to pop rhinos reliably. Now they need 2 assaults to have a chance. Lemun Russes need 3 charges to kill one.
SHUPPET wrote: They need to be run in conjunction with Biovores for the Ruins or even LA.
Add even more heavy support that can't pop a rhino. Your meta must be different than mine, because there is no way I could cede 2 heavy support slots to units that can't pop a vehicle and expect to win games.
SHUPPET wrote: they are so points effecient tho that it's rare they are ever a complete waste.
10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.
tag8833 wrote: 10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.
None of which can do what a Mawloc does.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thing Ive come to understand is 1)AV14 is not a big deal 2)When I have encountered LR, its electroshock grubs that handle it in 2 turns. When an opponent brings that I am usually ignoring that unit to focus on other things anyway, and Ive never had the 'oh no I cant deal with that unit!' feeling.
tag8833 wrote: 10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.
None of which can do what a Mawloc does.
The Exocrine does AP:2 better. The Crone does Mobility better, the Biovores do anti-infantry better, the Dakkafex does everything but mobility better, the Gargoyles do Tarpitting and mobility better.
Iechine wrote: Another thing Ive come to understand is 1)AV14 is not a big deal 2)When I have encountered LR, its electroshock grubs that handle it in 2 turns. When an opponent brings that I am usually ignoring that unit to focus on other things anyway, and Ive never had the 'oh no I cant deal with that unit!' feeling.
AV14 isn't that big of a deal. I still see double Land Raider often (and triple Land Raider occasionally), Lemun Russes and Battle Wagons are AV14 front, but I'm more afraid of 6-10 Rhino lists and 6-10 drop pod lists.
However, AV13 is a big, giant deal. Necrons are good, Knights are good, Dreadnoughts are better than before. AV13 is all over the place, and that is the challenge for Tyranids right now. AV 12 is super common, but at least Devourers have a chance.
None of them can deep strike multiple times a game in an edition where mobility is critical, and the Exocrines delivery is highly dubious. Take it against a bike list and who cares about its AP2.
AV14 isn't that big of a deal. I still see double Land Raider often (and triple Land Raider occasionally), Lemun Russes and Battle Wagons are AV14 front, but I'm more afraid of 6-10 Rhino lists and 6-10 drop pod lists.
However, AV13 is a big, giant deal. Necrons are good, Knights are good, Dreadnoughts are better than before. AV13 is all over the place, and that is the challenge for Tyranids right now. AV 12 is super common, but at least Devourers have a chance.
I fought against six razorback and six drop pod spam lists in a tourney over the weekend and they werent an issue, especially the razorbacks. 4 dead first turn, 2 more next, and that was with only 2 Flyrants. We've got the tools for it.
Iechine wrote: None of them can deep strike multiple times a game in an edition where mobility is critical, and the Exocrines delivery is highly dubious. Take it against a bike list and who cares about its AP2.
AV14 isn't that big of a deal. I still see double Land Raider often (and triple Land Raider occasionally), Lemun Russes and Battle Wagons are AV14 front, but I'm more afraid of 6-10 Rhino lists and 6-10 drop pod lists.
However, AV13 is a big, giant deal. Necrons are good, Knights are good, Dreadnoughts are better than before. AV13 is all over the place, and that is the challenge for Tyranids right now. AV 12 is super common, but at least Devourers have a chance.
I fought against six razorback and six drop pod spam lists in a tourney over the weekend and they werent an issue, especially the razorbacks. 4 dead first turn, 2 more next, and that was with only 2 Flyrants. We've got the tools for it.
Too be fair your razorback opponent deployed at the top of his zone right across from your dakka fexs and flyrants when he was going second. Worst opponent ever. No reasonable player should give your dakkafexes turn one range on a rhino chasis. Not when pre-measuring is legal.
You played well btw, just thought I should point out that killing rhinos and pods is a bit more difficult then in those games usually.
BTW you wouldn't happen to know who produces the buildings that were used in that tournament would you?
Eldercaveman wrote: Yeah it's the AV13 spammers we have real trouble with. I'd love to see Jy2 do a battle between his
Nids and his Av13 Crons!
Such a battle would favor the crons due to the ability of their teslas to take out Tyranid flyers. However, with the Malanthrope giving potentially 2+ cover to bugs (in ruins), it would actually be a tough fight for the crons as they have problems against units with 2+ saves. It would also depend on what type of tyranid lists. My current cron list runs bargelords, who can be tarpitted by tyranid gribblies. So against nidzilla lists with ripper troops, Necrons would have a major advantage. Against a more traditional, "old-fashioned" bug list with tervigon and 30x termagant troops (or with lots of gribblies), bugs can neutralize the effectiveness of the bargelords and then kill AB's with egrubs and rear shots. In such a matchup, bugs actually have a decent chance to beat the crons.
Too be fair your razorback opponent deployed at the top of his zone right across from your dakka fexs and flyrants when he was going second. Worst opponent ever. No reasonable player should give your dakkafexes turn one range on a rhino chasis. Not when pre-measuring is legal.
You played well btw, just thought I should point out that killing rhinos and pods is a bit more difficult then in those games usually.
BTW you wouldn't happen to know who produces the buildings that were used in that tournament would you?
He went first actually, I think he thought night fighting would save him, and that his GoI GravStar would wipe out my Fexes or both Tyrants (Which is why I was more than happy to DTW on only Gate.
The terrain was GW and the rest was an Infinity company, I can find out when I go to the store today to face off against a DE list.
Ah that's what it was, still there is no reason for giving your fexes range IMHO. I don't like those GK ally lists personally, the henchmen are too soft which is why taking risks like he did are unwise. You made him pay.
Sweet thanks. Those buildings you hid in seemed like they would go together quick and paint up nicely. Scale looks spot on!
Eldercaveman wrote: Yeah it's the AV13 spammers we have real trouble with. I'd love to see Jy2 do a battle between his
Nids and his Av13 Crons!
Such a battle would favor the crons due to the ability of their teslas to take out Tyranid flyers. However, with the Malanthrope giving potentially 2+ cover to bugs (in ruins), it would actually be a tough fight for the crons as they have problems against units with 2+ saves. It would also depend on what type of tyranid lists. My current cron list runs bargelords, who can be tarpitted by tyranid gribblies. So against nidzilla lists with ripper troops, Necrons would have a major advantage. Against a more traditional, "old-fashioned" bug list with tervigon and 30x termagant troops (or with lots of gribblies), bugs can neutralize the effectiveness of the bargelords and then kill AB's with egrubs and rear shots. In such a matchup, bugs actually have a decent chance to beat the crons.
Malanthropes are stupidly good. Played them twice already and if I were a bug player I'd never play without them unless it was no FW. It's FW gift to bug players, pretty sure they took it upon themselves to remedy the issues with the Nid dex
They have so many abilities for their cost, it's amazing. Prey adaptation is awesome in counter attack situations too, just charge him into a Dpod combat squad that's been shot up and he doles out preferred enemy too. It's one of those abilities you don't care about because he is already so worth it, then it helps in a game and he looks EVEN better.
Perhaps someone can help explain this - I often read that Ripper Swarms are good because they can "operate outside of Synapse" because they're Fearless.
They still have Instinctive Behavior (Feed) and their Ld is 6. Outside of Synapse, the way I see it, they could still very well end up eating themselves on failed tests.
So what makes Ripper Swarms a good choice, because of Fearless and Synapse? How does all this work, exactly?
notbriang wrote: Perhaps someone can help explain this - I often read that Ripper Swarms are good because they can "operate outside of Synapse" because they're Fearless.
They still have Instinctive Behavior (Feed) and their Ld is 6. Outside of Synapse, the way I see it, they could still very well end up eating themselves on failed tests.
So what makes Ripper Swarms a good choice, because of Fearless and Synapse? How does all this work, exactly?
Thanks!
Here's the difference:
1. Rippers fail IB. They cause 2-3W (because it is only a unit of 3) on themselves but stay on objective because they are Fearless.
2. Termagants fail IB. They then fall back and leave objective.
3. Hormagants fail IB. They start eating themselves, killing more than 25% of the unit. They then fail morale and run off of the objective.
Eldercaveman wrote: Yeah it's the AV13 spammers we have real trouble with. I'd love to see Jy2 do a battle between his
Nids and his Av13 Crons!
Such a battle would favor the crons due to the ability of their teslas to take out Tyranid flyers. However, with the Malanthrope giving potentially 2+ cover to bugs (in ruins), it would actually be a tough fight for the crons as they have problems against units with 2+ saves. It would also depend on what type of tyranid lists. My current cron list runs bargelords, who can be tarpitted by tyranid gribblies. So against nidzilla lists with ripper troops, Necrons would have a major advantage. Against a more traditional, "old-fashioned" bug list with tervigon and 30x termagant troops (or with lots of gribblies), bugs can neutralize the effectiveness of the bargelords and then kill AB's with egrubs and rear shots. In such a matchup, bugs actually have a decent chance to beat the crons.
I played Necrons on Tuesday. He is a relatively new player, and his list was not optimized yet, so I ran a list with a similar power level.
The game was hammer and anvil, so I infiltrated 20 genestealers into midfield terrain, and conga lined them back to my venomthrope. His first shooting attack at my screening gargoyles with a tesla annihilation barge proceeded to Arc 6 times, most notably to the Genestealers which killed 3 Congalined units and took them out of the Shrouded bubble. It also arced to my other screening units (Hormagaunts), killed 2, and took them out of range of shrouded. The rest of his army took my Genestealers down to 2 models, and killed the rest of my gaunts. My turn 1, I was mostly out of range. My Crone killed 4 Warriors. His turn two, his monolith deep struck right in the middle of all my units, and ate my venomthrope when the venom failed its Strength test. From that point on, I was hemoraging firepower at an alarming rate, and not doing much damage to him until I made assaults (which is damn hard against vehicles that move 36")
I was able to eventually Pen the Barges with my Crone, and Zoeys, And turn 3 I managed to assault most of his infantry and kill his warlord. We had to call the game at the Bottom of 4, and neither of us had much left, but those annihilation barges are so powerful, and Ghost Arks are hard to deal with. I remain terrified of Necrons.
I just mainly run lists where the loss of synapse has very little effect. The IB table is my least favorite part of the book, its such a kick in the groin.
Iechine wrote: I just mainly run lists where the loss of synapse has very little effect. The IB table is my least favorite part of the book, its such a kick in the groin.
Instinctive Behavior and Mob Rule for Orks are fundamental failure in rules writing. 1) They require you to look up rules in the middle of a game. 2) the results are never good. 3) They make playing the army frustrating. 4) The leave lingering negative feelings about games you loose.
There is no way that these rules add to the fun of the game. They may shift the meta away from hoards which seem to be a strong effort by GW, but they do so as a cost to fun that is simply not worth it, and could have been done in other ways much cheaper and easier. It is a greater sin than Serpent Shields, Shadows of the Warp, Riptides, Eldar/Tau double moves, Heldrakes, Annihilation Barges, or Buffmander. I fear that GW fundamentally disagrees with me, or else they wouldn't have written Mob Rule after the way the community responded to Instinctive Behavior.
ductvader wrote: I don't understand how so many people are losing synapse.
I've had a unit out of synapse maybe 10 times in the last three years.
How much synapse are you guys running?
It is a "style" thing, take a look at lists being posted...many folks like running real thin on Synapse. I on the other hand, likely run too much. Local "meta" is a big part as well.
tag8833 wrote: I fear that GW fundamentally disagrees with me, or else they wouldn't have written Mob Rule after the way the community responded to Instinctive Behavior.
They probably didn't. Every plastic 40k release this year up to and including Space Wolves has models with 2013 stamped on the sprue. It's very likely the Ork codex was wrapped up and sent off for printing before we even saw the Tyranid one.
SHUPPET wrote: They need to be run in conjunction with Biovores for the Ruins or even LA.
Add even more heavy support that can't pop a rhino. Your meta must be different than mine, because there is no way I could cede 2 heavy support slots to units that can't pop a vehicle and expect to win games.
SHUPPET wrote: they are so points effecient tho that it's rare they are ever a complete waste.
10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.
For starters, Living Artillery doesn't take up any HS slots, but its not that relevant. Mawlocs role isn't hammering down Rhinos, although with AG on the charge it does as much as a Dakkafex shooting at front armour, but thats not so relevant either, I don't view Dakkafex as reliable AT. If I wanted reliable AT, I wouldn't be wasting my Exocrine or Dakkafex shooting on armour at all, or wasting my points in general on a crappy ass Crone. I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour, or Flyrants for Rhino-esque transports at the rear armour, possibly Dakkafex to some extent for extended coverage and SA shots but not something I rely on. Mawloc is not some "auto-lose" vs Rhino spam, in fact in the Space Marine match up he is the best tool in the dex for dealing with Bikes, Cents, and anything in power armour, as well as having the versatility of reliably punching 3 plasma hits into a vehicles rear armour.
Dakkafex? 10 pts more, 2 wounds less Crones, 15 pts more, 2 wounds less, T5 , 4+ Exocrine, 30 points more, 1 less wound, even worse than Dakkafexes at AT, comparable anti-infantry to a Mawloc, doesnt fulfill the same roles Gargs, T3, not even a comparison to damage output and durability lol
Biovore is arguably more cost effective but has a narrower scope of effective targets, and that aside Mawloc fills a completely different role. Unless of course you use your Biovores to claim midfield objectives and tarpit for your army. Which is the only case that you could even use this comparison
It isn't as cut and dry as you would have us believe, the damage output on the Mawloc pergame is generally higher than than any of the models you mentioned except maybe Dakkafex, who sacrifices durability and mobility for it. I think the Dakkafex is a great model and one of the best in the dex however, that doesn't mean we can never find any use for the Mawloc, especially since even one Mawloc in a list gives you a good way to deal with a lot of things that Dakkafex's don't deal with effeciently. At the end of the day, 6 T6 3+ wounds for 140 pts is extremely cost efficient, making them tankier than Nurgle Bikers, also making them one of the best deepstriking assault units in the game even just as a tarpit, that have a massive armor ignoring, cover-ignoring, re-rolling to wound S6 large blast on entry to go with it. Ignoring this as a bad unit is crazy.
Yes, the points per wound is really good, but so what? The Harpy is really hard to kill too...
The Mawloc gets a whopping 3 attacks at WS3....yippee!! To try and portray this as somehow useful in CC is a joke; it can't even be relied upon to take out a vehicle, any vehicle.
And if you *do* assault the enemy, it means you are not reburrowiing, which means no TftD.
The *only* reason to take it is for TftD. Two S6 AP2 blasts is pretty good, but to get it, you have to chance reserves, have to avoid scatter (or ruins) and will be lucky to pull it off more than 2 times a game, even if the enemy doesn't try and take it out. So yes *if* the enemy has a juicy target, *and* you don't scatter, you can do a lot of damage. The difference is that other units can do that damage every turn, not just twice a game.
SHUPPET wrote: I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour.
Friends don't let friend take Haywire Hive Guard. The best AT for heavy armour is Carnifexes in Assault, Flyrants firing Warp Lance or E.Grubs, and Crones.
As I said, we must play in a far different meta. If I see 1 Rhino, I'm usually seeing 6 Rhinos + 2 Razorbacks and a Land Raider. No soft targets at all. I rarely see marine bikes, and when I do, Dakka Flyrants, and Dakka Fexes have no problem dealing with them. I've only seen centurions on the table once (in 6th). I manage to kill them with an assaulting flyrant. When I do see a good target for a Mawloc (say devastators or longfangs), they are always on the upper level of terrain. The only large groups of infantry I see are orks, Necrons, and Guard. All of which die to a Crone or TFex just as easily as a Mawloc, and the Orks and Guard are an assault threat for the Mawloc. The only time I see Terminators, they have storm shields.
coredump wrote: Yes, the points per wound is really good, but so what? The Harpy is really hard to kill too...
The Mawloc gets a whopping 3 attacks at WS3....yippee!! To try and portray this as somehow useful in CC is a joke; it can't even be relied upon to take out a vehicle, any vehicle.
And if you *do* assault the enemy, it means you are not reburrowiing, which means no TftD.
Except it DOES have Hit and Run, so it's not actually locked in combat 66% of the time. Also, just because it isn't a close combat killing machine doesn't mean it's S6 AP2 attacks (or it's 1 smash attempt) can't benefit a given situation.
After thinking about it...because you're definitely looking at bringing it in from reserves, you're point is valid...if you assault the turn after you arrive, you cannot re-burrow. It IS nice to have the option to do either...not sure why the option is a negative. Either way, my above comment is more in the spirit of starting on the board and having the potential to assault before burrowing (going second against a drop pod army, for example).
The *only* reason to take it is for TftD. Two S6 AP2 blasts is pretty good, but to get it, you have to chance reserves, have to avoid scatter (or ruins) and will be lucky to pull it off more than 2 times a game, even if the enemy doesn't try and take it out. So yes *if* the enemy has a juicy target, *and* you don't scatter, you can do a lot of damage. The difference is that other units can do that damage every turn, not just twice a game.
You're right...the only reason you're taking it is for the TftD, but you don't actually have to chance reserves...it can start on the board. Sure, the first TftD attack will land turn 3 after a turn 2 burrow, but that just means you'll potentially be landing a second TftD on turn 5, which is a pretty good time to deep strike a scoring unit anywhere you'd like on the board (if you need to grab an objective or drop a S6 AP2 ignores cover pie plate (X 2 potentially) on a unit that you may not be able to shift off an objective otherwise). I know I know...you want your first TftD to be on turn 2...it's not the end of the world to wait till turn 3, and it's guaranteed.
In a landscape where people are complaining non-stop about how uninspired our codex is...it's a shame that we can't embrace a useful, unique option.
I like your last statement Voidwraith, it is a great option and not totally outclassed by anything. The best comparison is Exocrine (Mawloc potentially lands 2 blasts every 2 turns), except Mawloc puts it's 2 blasts down the same turn, leaving it free to assault the turn after, and at 30 pts cheaper with one extra wound, Mawloc gets the best price on T6 3+ in the dex making it a great tarpit, and 4x S6 AP2 attacks isn't "useless" especially since in reality it's often 8 attacks for 280 pts which is quite harmful to anything, more attacks than a CC Flyrant for the same price, with trade offs for the 2x TftD. It provides cover ignoring and tarpit ting and cheap as chips durability that Exocrine does not - I however run both anyway. It's not a bad unit by any means, definitely one of the better ones in the codex.
SHUPPET wrote: I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour.
Friends don't let friend take Haywire Hive Guard. The best AT for heavy armour is Carnifexes in Assault, Flyrants firing Warp Lance or E.Grubs, and Crones.
We'll with this undeniable well reasoned logic, I don't know why I ever thought otherwise!
Mind doing the stats of 240 pts of Haywire HG firing at a LandRaider, compared to a Flyrant firing Warp Lance and eGrubs for the same price?
Uhhh no? Isn't that exactly what was being done in the first place though? On top of that, wasn't the statement made that WL eGrubs Flyrant (who needs many lucks to even roll WL) better at strictly AT? So why is the comparison of this an issue? On top of that, if we aren't taking HG because Flyrants already cover the role of AT, then what exactly is the issue with Mawloc again? This argument seems flawed in a roundabout manner.
but if this sounds like what you are asking for, then rest assured tis on it's way - I've already put in too much work on it for me to forget about it now.
) So I have not had a chance to try it...it was built for 6th ed...I don't know if it has the same "mojo" now, since "Objective secured" became such a "thing". If I can improve enough, I plan on trying my "Enhanced" version (upgrades on the Troops). Thanx for asking. 
Mawlocs a least get to try something before they get Melta'd or Grav'd) off the table. 
