There is nothing in the wording of the rule from the image on 139 that suggests leaping grants an extra 6". It's pretty explicit, especially if you read the jump pack rules.
I hate that GW put the Dima in the Fast slot, which makes it harder to work a build around. You ideally want a really fast army that moves in a cohesive fashion, around the Dima. Well, 2 Dima and you have only a single slot left. And if you play multi-CAD you need to waste at least 80 points on more poop troops.
luke1705 wrote: . No model needs to "leap" to move 6", so it seems rather logical that it would gain an extra 6" of movement.
Impassable terrain.
Sure, but with a 4" base, you can only clear the closest 2" in front of the model. Not really much help at all.
My initial reaction was 'no way it is an extra 6" ". After re-reading it....mmmm... maybe?? I admit it is partially just wishlisting and hoping... But the way it is worded is a bit odd in either case. And as noted, leaping in the movement phase is all but worthless with such a large base.
edit: Okay, after reading the Jump Pack rules... it seems *really* unlikely that it is 6" of extra movement... dang it!!
Terror from the Deep wrote: Is there anything slower in the game on a size vs speed ratio? It would move faster if it fell over...
Ha... thats funny. It will make me laugh as soon as I am done crying about it....
luke1705 wrote: . No model needs to "leap" to move 6", so it seems rather logical that it would gain an extra 6" of movement.
Impassable terrain.
Sure, but with a 4" base, you can only clear the closest 2" in front of the model. Not really much help at all.
Leap sideways - oval base and all. Yes, it's a very "meh" rule.
Although...
if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1,
Emphasis mine
Leaper allows you to move freely over terrain, not through it. Who needs Grenades?
The gladiator (dimachaeron) only moves 6" -- but isn't slowed by terrain and has fleet (thank you adrenals). It's a street sweeper in melee thanks to 6 base attacks (5 +2 ccw) and rampage.
In a typical game both armies move towards one another - this thing will see assault more regularly than some of you might think. Vs armies that prefer to turtle up and remain stagnant, flyrants and a crone or two will be putting early pressure on their lines as the gladiator approaches.
Overall for the points I think it's a great damage dealer - it's on foot style of approach just helps balance it. If the enemy hides from it all game then just dominate the board and win by objectives.
I find it funny that since 7th edition dropped, infiltrating with Master of Ambush has been a legitimate tactic for getting things in range fast, but now people don't seem to want to like the D, no one has mentioned using it?
Ok, I am going to play Devil's Advocate here with regards to the Dimawhatchamacallit.
Dimey is good because:
1. He's a huge fire magnet. Not only is the guy scary in combat, but the model is big and scary as well. He'll draw a lot of fire, so better have those venomthropes/malanthrope close by.
2. He's the best pure cc brute we have currently. He's not necessarily equipped to handle heavy armor like carnifexes or crushing claws are, but he is better at handling elite infantry and other MC's with his high WS and Initiative, lots of attacks on the charge and the ability to insta-kill multi-wound models, especially those that are T6+.
3. He is much better at destroying light to medium vehicles than any of the other assault-based TMC's. Right now, the meta is transport-heavy MSU armies. Dimey will flourish against these types of armies.
4. He will be great as an area-of-denial unit to be used to control the board. Run 2 of these guys and they will spell DO-NOT-ENTER to most opponents. Use him to control the board while threatening the opponents up the middle as well.
Dimey may not be the best unit to have ever come out of the Tyranid army (maybe not even in the Top 10). However, there is a niche for him in a Tyranid army and I can see him working in the right list.
rigeld2 wrote: Or just go Unbound. Which is where my brain is going.
2 Flyrants (because that's all I have), 2 Crones, 4 Dakkafexes, 2 Dimas... seems not bad. Not amazing but not bad.
Damn. I forgot about Malanthropes. So I'll make it a Bound list with 2 Flyrants, 2? Malanthropes, 4 Dakkafexes, 2 Dimes, fill points with deep striking Rippers.
I won't go as far as to call him a good unit yet, but I do think he will be quite passable in multiples. Like Flyrants, he seems like you won't get the full potential out of one of them, but almost every army will have something this guy will murder. Run one up each flank and hug cover, or two up the middle at a big fire base. Most people won't shoot them until the Flyrants go down, and by then they'll actually be pretty close. Move and run twice and you can get a turn 3 charge without much trouble. He can also, by my reading, jump over units when he charges. If I can proxy them once I get my book, I think that 2 Flyrants and a Crone plus 2 Dimas would be fun to chuck upfield, perhaps with gargoyle support.
I look at a pair of dimas much like jifel's Imperial Knight ally. 2 dimas are just a little more than 1 knight, but then that's 12 T6 Wounds that can split up and spread out to run interference or as a huge distraction.
Hive Fleet Newt here to share the Hive Mind intentions with this creation. I put some thought into the Dimachaeron and my conclusion is that this thing is a beast! First off I believe its in the fast attack slot because that is the only slot where we can not take a land monstrous creature, by putting it in the fast slot gives us more choices nothing to rave about but its something.
We are underestimating the leaper rule, its a jump pack that gives the Dimachaeron a guaranteed 6 inches of movement. It is not slowed down by being in difficult terrain and remember unlike a dakkafex you are not shooting any weapons so you will be running every turn and with fleet you should move around 10 inches a turn easy. Their 6 inch movement is better because it is jump pack like allowing you to take advantage of terrain easier especially los blocking terrain, as the threat of it jumping out of cover to assault becomes a serious issue. The guaranteed 6 inches out of cover followed by a charge with re-rolls due to fleet should mean you get in cc. If you place the objectives in the middle of the board the Dimachaeron will be a threat by turn 2 if they are trying to claim objectives. Turn 3 the rest of your walking threats should be range to be a threat such as dakkafexes.
Secondily the stats of this thing is amazing for 10 points more than a trygon you get more wounds more attacks higher iniative at the same weapon skill as a Hive Tyrant. Which means its going to hit most things on a 3+ and wound on a 2+.
In cc is where the Dimachaeron shines, first off lets discuss the number of attacks it gets. The sickle claws and grasping talons should grant an extra attack, 1 more for charging, and up to 3 more for rampage thats up to 10 attacks on the charge! After that you are looking at a minimum of 7 a turn. It gets better when you charge with your 8-10 attacks they are resolved at strength 8, plus 1 because of FC and another 1 because of grasping talons. With the number of attacks you have you should roll a 6 to hit to activate the maw. This is a ruling question as it says the maw may target any none extremely bulky model if we get to select the model the instant death attack is really good. We simply target the model that has multi-wounds and no invulnerable save, and extremely bulky units is rarer than most think I believe centurions are very bulky. Either way you should be able to get feel no pain for 1-2 turns depending on what unit you charge. Sickle claws on the other hand is alot simpler on a wound roll of 4+ instant death. The Dimachaeron is design to instant kill stuff either with the talons with str 8 atks, the maw which depending on the ruling gets to target a model to instant kill, or if that is to difficult just roll a 4+ with the sickle claws.
This thing is going to be really good once players learn how to take advantage of its unique movement.
We are underestimating the leaper rule, its a jump pack that gives the Dimachaeron a guaranteed 6 inches of movement. Their 6 inch movement is better because it is jump pack like allowing you to take advantage of terrain easier especially los blocking terrain, as the threat of it jumping out of cover to assault becomes a serious issue. The guaranteed 6 inches out of cover followed by a charge with re-rolls due to fleet should mean you get in cc. If you place the objectives in the middle of the board the Dimachaeron will be a threat by turn 2 if they are trying to claim objectives. Turn 3 the rest of your walking threats should be range to be a threat such as dakkafexes.
You keep saying 'guaranteed 6 inches' like that is somehow impressive. WIthout leaping it would get 6" 42% of the time and a 5+ 70%. And 4+ almost 90% of the time. The extra inch is nice an all.. but not all that impressive.
As for 'jumping over' terrain... just walk through it. If it is impassable, then you better hope it is really thin, With such a large base, you can only 'leap' a 2" space going forward. Is it better to have leaping than not have it? Sure. But no one is underestimating the leaper rule.
Secondily the stats of this thing is amazing for 10 points more than a trygon...
Um, the trygon sucks. To be better than the trygon, again, isn't very impressive.
[/quoteIn cc is where the Dimachaeron shines
Yes, everyone agrees it kicks butt in CC. That isn't the problem, the problem is *getting* to CC. It has a cool FnP ability, but only *after* it is in CC.
This thing is going to be really good once players learn how to take advantage of its unique movement.
Except there is nothing really 'unique' about its movement. It works like any Jump model... except crappier...
Now, it is possible that running two of these, with a malanthrope... will be able to get across and into CC. But that is also a 500pts commitment....
Coredump is very much on the ball. There seems to be an influx of very poor reasoning on this page, to which I will contribute some opinions shortly.
I understand a lot of people WANT the Dima to work and WANT to play it regardless of how good it is (I'm strongly in the first category), but pretending and twisting it into something it's not by using thinly veiled logic hurts more than it helps. Some people I think have made genuinely mistakes, some I think might be in denial. The ONLY WORSE MODEL AVAILABLE TO TYRANIDS is the Swarmlord.
Pyvores? Better.
Trygons? Better.
Haruspex? Better.
This guy, while in a similar category as the above, is the EPITOME of everything that tricks Tyranid players into losing games and thinking they have a dex that can't compete with top tier armies. He is probably one of the worst investment of points available to us. More to come.
Got in a 1000pt campaign game against Frenchy at DZ today, and yes, I did get Warp Blast from a Zoanthrope off at a landraider and I did pen it, and I rolled a...4, so no explosion, but it can be done.
The same Zoey also got it off and killed an assault centurion, so I probably used up all my Warp Blasts for the year in one game.
Sadly, we tied.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if the Navy isnt too busy with me, I should be able to take leave in October and attend Mechanicon in PA, which would be my 'most serious' tourney to date. Rumor has it that its 1500pts and GW rules, so I've got two lists that I am looking at.
Ill have a tourney next month to test them out, but I want to pick one and refine it and practice it, something Ive never really done.
Which lets me really spread out and control the board, but then I loose the easy venomthrope cover saves. An even further variation could make room for a Crone.
And in no variation can I afford adrenal glands like I always do on the fexes, which does worry me.
He might be able to jump over those Ork barricades, or a sandbag wall, or something... if for some reason you were treating those as Impassable during a game, for no apparent reason. Yeah, 'Leaper' just says 'these rules have not been playtested, or even thought about all that hard.'
Can jump units still finish their move on top of impassable if they are able to be placed on top physically? With a l dangerous terrain test?
And do we know if the D is on a standard oval or a Knight oval base?
I'll be getting one regardless and I'll make it work in my lists I have no doubt. I can probably afford to drop my Tervigon for it, although she is an anchor to my MSU list.
Ian Sturrock wrote: He might be able to jump over those Ork barricades, or a sandbag wall, or something... if for some reason you were treating those as Impassable during a game, for no apparent reason. Yeah, 'Leaper' just says 'these rules have not been playtested, or even thought about all that hard.'
It also allows him to not be penalized when charging into terrain, as I noted earlier.
Malanthrope: Elite instead of HQ. Units of 1-3 at 85pts each.
Infantry, T5 W4 3+
Tox miasma, Regen, Fleet, MTC, Shrouded, poisoned 2+, synapse, shadow,
spore cloud (same rule as Venomthropes)
prey adaption & grasping tail. Tail gives a 50/50 chance to halve opponent's attacks and drop Init to 1 in a challenge.
Malanthrope: Elite instead of HQ. Units of 1-3 at 85pts each.
Infantry, T5 W4 3+
Tox miasma, Regen, Fleet, MTC, Shrouded, poisoned 2+, synapse, shadow,
spore cloud (same rule as Venomthropes)
prey adaption & grasping tail. Tail gives a 50/50 chance to halve opponent's attacks and drop Init to 1 in a challenge.
tetrisphreak wrote: The gladiator (dimachaeron) only moves 6" -- but isn't slowed by terrain and has fleet (thank you adrenals). It's a street sweeper in melee thanks to 6 base attacks (5 +2 ccw) and rampage.
In a typical game both armies move towards one another - this thing will see assault more regularly than some of you might think. Vs armies that prefer to turtle up and remain stagnant, flyrants and a crone or two will be putting early pressure on their lines as the gladiator approaches.
Overall for the points I think it's a great damage dealer - it's on foot style of approach just helps balance it. If the enemy hides from it all game then just dominate the board and win by objectives.
Just my opinion. ^
I agree that you can get it into combat, I just think that anything which is moving 6" a turn and is purely a CC monster finds it difficult to get there turns 1-2. Also I think you need to be able to move around the board quickly in 7th, the games ive played so far are EVERYWHERE and I would prefer units that can move quickly. This thing will lag behind your flyers so much so that you will be going in piecemeal which is what your opponent wants.
I like that it is in the FA slot though I don't think most people were really maxing those slots out.
Ian Sturrock wrote: He might be able to jump over those Ork barricades, or a sandbag wall, or something... if for some reason you were treating those as Impassable during a game, for no apparent reason. Yeah, 'Leaper' just says 'these rules have not been playtested, or even thought about all that hard.'
It also allows him to not be penalized when charging into terrain, as I noted earlier.
It already has MTC, so it wasn't penalized the -2" for the charge anyway.
As we play it, landing in terrain qualifies as "moving through difficult terrain"; do you play it differently? Do you allow jump troops to strike at profile Init?
Iechine wrote: Got in a 1000pt campaign game against Frenchy at DZ today, and yes, I did get Warp Blast from a Zoanthrope off at a landraider and I did pen it, and I rolled a...4, so no explosion, but it can be done.
The same Zoey also got it off and killed an assault centurion, so I probably used up all my Warp Blasts for the year in one game.
Sadly, we tied.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if the Navy isnt too busy with me, I should be able to take leave in October and attend Mechanicon in PA, which would be my 'most serious' tourney to date. Rumor has it that its 1500pts and GW rules, so I've got two lists that I am looking at.
Ill have a tourney next month to test them out, but I want to pick one and refine it and practice it, something Ive never really done.
Which lets me really spread out and control the board, but then I loose the easy venomthrope cover saves. An even further variation could make room for a Crone.
And in no variation can I afford adrenal glands like I always do on the fexes, which does worry me.
With regards to the 2nd list, make sure the tournament allows for double-CAD armies. If the tournament follows the lead of BAO/LVO/Nova, then they won't allow for dual-CAD armies. Check with the tournament first.
Personally, I don't have a problem with running 2x carnifexes as opposed to single fexes. The only disadvantage of a dual-fex build is they may run into problems if your opponent can kill off your backfield synapse. Otherwise, if you have to available slots (i.e. if the tournament allows for 2x CAD's), then go ahead and run them separately if you want. If not, then your only option would be to squadron them up.
I do, however, like the mawloc in the list. He may be a superstar in one game, or he may just miss all game. However, what I really like about him is his mobility and the fact that he affects how your opponent would play. Just having him in your list will restrict/affect how your opponent may deploy and how he would move his units (best case scenario is that it really discourages him from moving a unit that he should move). In this way, the mawloc is a force-multiplier of sorts and those types of units are always useful.
For competitive Tyranids, I believe there are 2 characteristics that makes them really competitive:
1. Mobility. You NEED high mobility in 7E. You NEED high mobility to compete with the top-tier tournament armies. If not, then a lot of armies are going to make your day. Moreover, you cannot rely on Onslaught or Master of Ambush to give you the mobility that you seek. Consider them a bonus. Otherwise, your army needs to be built on a solid foundation of mobility.
For your list, dual flyrants are a necessity. I consider them must-haves in any serious tournament Tyranid army that hopes to compete with the other top-tier armies. Heck, the more, the better. Run them as allies or in a formation to bring in more. The flyrant is arguably the most flexible unit in the army as well as its best force-multiplier unit. Mobility, resiliency (due to being a FMC), offense, anti-air unit, synapse and psychic beacon - the flyrant does it all and is the most well rounded unit in the codex. All the other HQ's are just role players that may be strong in 1 area but lacking in another. The all-purpose flyrant does it all and he does it quite well.
Mawloc has good mobility with the ability to pop up anywhere.
I like rippers because of their ability to enter the game almost anywhere. That flexibility alone is why I prefer them over gants nowadays. You can predict where gants will be. You can't really predict where the ripper swarms will be.
While carnifexes don't really have mobility, at least their firepower gives them some reach. That makes them better than non-fast Tyranid assault brutes. So they might not be the fastest, but at least they are respectable with their ability to reach-out-and-touch-somebody. However, if it were me, I'd consider swapping out 1 or 2 dakkafexes for other, faster units to complement your flyrants.
2. Force Multipliers. All the top-tier armies have them (well, almost all). A Force Multiplier Unit (FMU) is a unit that not only can stand on its own, but it helps to make the rest of the army better as well.
Flyrants are the best FMU in the codex.
Venomthrope is another high FMU unit which makes your entire army that much more resilient. And he's cheap too, which is great for a supporting unit.
Zoans are a cheap means to add synapse support in your backfield as well as to buff up your psychic prowess. He can also add some AT against heavy armor as a secondary source. And he's cheap too, which is great for a supporting unit.
Mawlocs provide one of the few AP2 offense in the army and will affect how your opponent deploys/moves his units.
Now going back to your list. You have respectable mobility, but you won't be able to keep up with the speed of the better armies. You have decent FMU's in your army, but a couple of weak points in it can really ruin your day. What are the problem areas in your list? There are 2 main ones:
1. Flyrants will be flying as a duet. Nothing in your list (other than the mawloc) can match the speed of your flyrants. You really need to take great care in how you use your flyrants. Otherwise, you will hit your opponents in waves (flyrants first, the rest of the army later), thus giving them time to try to focus down on your flyrants before dealing with the rest of the army. Especially if you are playing against Tau or Eldar, who excel in picking off trickling units.
2. The venomthrope protects the rest of the army and the zoanthrope provides synapse for them, but who will protect your venom/zoan? Unless there is terrain for them to hide as they advance, the more experienced player will pick off first your venom and then your zoan. You either need redundancy or something like a bastion to protect them or you pray that there is BLOS terrain conveniently placed near your deployment zone.
Ian Sturrock wrote: He might be able to jump over those Ork barricades, or a sandbag wall, or something... if for some reason you were treating those as Impassable during a game, for no apparent reason. Yeah, 'Leaper' just says 'these rules have not been playtested, or even thought about all that hard.'
It also allows him to not be penalized when charging into terrain, as I noted earlier.
It already has MTC, so it wasn't penalized the -2" for the charge anyway.
As we play it, landing in terrain qualifies as "moving through difficult terrain"; do you play it differently? Do you allow jump troops to strike at profile Init?
You didn't move through it, you explicitly moved over it, so yes - Jump troops strike at init if using their Jump move.
Does spore cloud stack on each other? Three separate Malanthropes walking behind two Dimmys........2+spore cloud save? Or am I just delusional and wishful thinking here?
Here's my post on why we need to stop pretending this guy is good, as well as how he should be played if you insist on using him. These quotes are just picked up from thoughts throughout the last page or so.
He's a huge fire magnet. Not only is the guy scary in combat, but the model is big and scary as well. He'll draw a lot of fire, so better have those venomthropes/malanthrope close by.
How is this a plus to the model? He's a huge firemagnet, yet pays more per wound than Tyrannofex. Dima has the defensive stats of a Mawloc (who also draws alot fire) and yet spends 3-4 turns of shooting on the board before he even threatens anything (compared to the Mawloc who threatens almost EVERYTHING before he hits the board, and continues being a threat from that point onwards up until he dies) and yet, costs nearly 150% the price of a Mawloc. If the Dima guy is drawing fire - its a bad thing. If he dies before he makes it into combat, you have lost on the trade. For every 2 wounds he takes in shooting is an extra Mawloc wound you could have had (just an example).
Vs armies that prefer to turtle up and remain stagnant, flyrants and a crone or two will be putting early pressure on their lines as the gladiator approaches.
So not only are you breaking up your army in piecemeal, you are basically just saying "ok well here is 400 pts of my army doing nothing except making run moves for the first 3-4 turns of the game, but its ok because I have other things doing pressure instead". What you should be doing is just taking all the things that do put on pressure, piecemeal aside just the decision to include this guy over a good model is watering down your army better than nothing else bar the Swarmlord.
I find it funny that since 7th edition dropped, infiltrating with Master of Ambush has been a legitimate tactic for getting things in range fast, but now people don't seem to want to like the D, no one has mentioned using it?
Master of Ambush is not something you build your list around having every game. You build a list with models who gain hugely with MoA - you build a list with models that still tear gak up every game MoA or not. Dakkafex is a great unit, mobility or not he has a consistent 24" projection from his starting point every turn, more with Onslaught (far more common than MoA). Dima would benefit hugely from outflanking, and definitely be playable. Outflanking is still no Deepstrike however, much easier to play around, and being that you'd have to take at least 2 Dimas to stop your entire investment getting shot down turn 1 regardless, its a risky move to make. If I was assured MoA each game however, I'd have a go at playing 3. It's literally all these guys would need. However they don't have it consistently. You will have MoA less than 1/3 of the time. Those 2/3 games, you lose.
In a typical game both armies move towards one another - this thing will see assault more regularly than some of you might think.
Every single army in the game outranges us. Even Orks have a shooting range advantage on us. If you are not playing Nids, and your opponent doubled down on this weakness, by sinking 400-600 points into a couple of copies this guy - why the hell would you run directly at your opponent? It maka no sense. To highlight this flaw from a competitive perspective - you will never make it into combat with Eldar, you will never make it into combat with Tau or AM. Against these armies, packing even one Dima is an auto-lose. You now just sunk even 200 points into a creature with likely no return on - you will never even catch anything in Eldar or DE, they don't ever have to kill it. Against other shooty armies, best case scenario, you sacrifice all your aggression for a unit that threatens nothing till turn 3 (BEST case scenario gets you a turn 3, but often turn 4 against these armies), where they either choose to deal with it there and then, as you have been playing an army with a handicap of somewhere between -200 and -600 points for the first 3 turns, they likely have plenty of units left capable of dealing with it. Or they just let it wreak havoc for a turn or two. Better hope it deals 200 points of damage.
Now, to a varying degree as you go down the ladder of shootiness to choppiness ratio, you will start to have slightly improved chances to make it to combat, against the less shooty armies. But when I say slightly, I mean slightly. There is no reason to play against a Tyranid list doing this except by doing anything bar moving back to max range, shooting, rinse and repeat, and letting him gain on you a couple of inches every turn dependant on his run move. Hoorah for giving him Fleet I guess. At least this guy isn't an autolose vs Blood Angels, like he is against Eldar (hoorah!).
This is why Gargoyles are his best friend. FOR GAMES AGAINST ARMIES IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS LADDER, closer-ranged firepower but not forced to assault you regardless (probably mostly Space Marines & CSM), they are cheap fast units to catch gak, tie it up in combat for a turn, and let him catch it. Ideally, the best way to run him would be with as many MSU Garg squads as possible, so that while he already puts in work against Blood Angels and Khorne Bezerkers lol (i.e. two armies you needed absolutely no help against ), he might actually be able to do something in a more midtier match up. Still would be a nightmare for hurting your army so many points in unreliability, auto-lose in most games, and not worth his points in durability in ever, but at LEAST he stands the CHANCE to maybe make his points back in SOME midtier match ups. Someone else touched on the concept here, and gets it:
Spoiler:
N.I.B. wrote: I hate that GW put the Dima in the Fast slot, which makes it harder to work a build around. You ideally want a really fast army that moves in a cohesive fashion, around the Dima. Well, 2 Dima and you have only a single slot left. And if you play multi-CAD you need to waste at least 80 points on more poop troops.
This is, once again, assuming best case scenario, and that you are playing against an army who couldn't afford to deploy too far back. Then again, you are (well, would hypothetically be, if it fit) dedicating a lot of points to supporting a lot of other points, I don't know how it would play out in practice, but if it was easily denied by deploying backfield, you can bet a lot of good players will do it if it's the right choice.
I think the key to playing with him if you were for some reason forced to play one (or just couldn't help yourself from lining GW's pockets no matter what poop they serve up on your platter) would be to make sure EVERYTHING else your army is a threat, that doesn't get hampered by units deploying backfield, or even makes your army benefit from it. Examples are, Biovores for the range, FMC's for the speed and projection, and stuff like using Hive Commander to outflank a blob of Warriors and Devilgaunts, spammed Mawlocs, etc etc, I'm sure you can use your imagination to find units that fit these categories. Units that benefit from backfield deployment like Biovores are good because it keeps them very safe, Dima will deal with anything that sticks around to deal with them (this was still the case in regular Tyranid lists of course tho, with Biovores deploying behind a wall of bugs, but at least this way you can have the same effect while playing a reserve army). FMC's are acceptable, just because they don't necessarily get hurt too much by range issues, and may even find benefits from enemy units being clumped, by use of their templates. Units that benefit from them being backfield are outflanking, as prime targets are likely on both board edges, as well as the fact that its harder for your opponent to punish you for outflanking/deepstriking, and of course, coming piecemeal if they have less early game threats due to not being able to deploy them centrefield safely, while you aim for a big turn 2 alpha.
This is how I would recommend playing the Dima. However, while this sounds nice on paper, it's unlikely to ever be worth its points. You are basically just providing that same wall of CC threat that Nid's always have in a brick, just in the manifestation of a single unit capable of hurting anything who wants to test him. But 200 is a lot for one. And because he isn't extra durable, you do need at least 2 or this threat doesn't exist. Your opponent doesn't "lose out" if this thing draws fire. 200 points for 6 wounds is not a good ratio. It is a tradeoff for aggression and massively versatility on units like Carnifex and the Exocrine. For this guy however, its just one more setback that he really did NOT need. And all this said, its not likely to consistently have the effect you are hoping for, even against good players. Most armies can deal with 12 T6 wounds in two turns, its one of the issues we face in general as Tyranids. I think as a whole, the concept is just flawed. Taking a Dima in your list, is the wrong way to play the Dima. This is probly the best way to make light of a gak situation. In practice, still might not do anything, as the concept behind making him "not suck as much" isnt even foolproof, but its better to hope for than nothing. Also, if you are allowed to take FW you can probably take dual CAD, just spam Mawloc's and these guys and you might win a game although its gimmicky as hell lol.
So I emailed forge world about the dimachaeron and have just had a response!
My email was:
Hi Forge World Team,
So I'm just flicking through my new imperial armour book and had two questions regarding the Dimachaeron rules- hope you can answer!
Question 1. As per the leaper rule, if a Dimachaeron assaults a unit in cover- does it strike at it's normal initiative 6 or is it slowed by difficult terrain? The wording suggests that as it moves freely and OVER terrain, it would not be effected.
Second query is I notice that it does not have the fearless USR. Is this an oversight? All other Tyranid mc's have the Fearless USR so just abit odd that this one doesn't.
One last thing, why is this a fast attack choice if it only moves 6? It's very slow! Maybe errata in a 12 inch move? Go on. I'll buy one if you do!
Best regards.
Simon
"
The response I was met with was the following:
Hi,
Thank you for your email. The answers to your questions are as follows -
1. When using Leaper the Dimachaeron is affected normally by charging through difficult terrain, but does get the other listed benefits.
2. This is not an oversight. It is not a mindless killing machine, it is willing to fall back, re-group and attack again. Plus it is Leadership 10.
3. Its movement is correct. It was believed that Fast Attack was the correct section for the creature to be in, with regards to its abilities.
If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
Regards,
Forge World
While #1 was to be expected, #2 and #3 is a bunch of fail.
Friend had serious family issues come up - so, being a friend I backburned the plans to paint. I can field an army consisting of things already painted - might not be ideal but would rather be there if he needed me to talk to than be too preoccupied and stressed out.
So, presented...
What will be attending - 1800 points, Lords of War allowed, charity tournament with the emphasis being on lighter lists rather than super competitive must win or Else.
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
So I emailed forge world about the dimachaeron and have just had a response!
My email was:
Hi Forge World Team,
So I'm just flicking through my new imperial armour book and had two questions regarding the Dimachaeron rules- hope you can answer!
Question 1. As per the leaper rule, if a Dimachaeron assaults a unit in cover- does it strike at it's normal initiative 6 or is it slowed by difficult terrain? The wording suggests that as it moves freely and OVER terrain, it would not be effected.
Second query is I notice that it does not have the fearless USR. Is this an oversight? All other Tyranid mc's have the Fearless USR so just abit odd that this one doesn't.
One last thing, why is this a fast attack choice if it only moves 6? It's very slow! Maybe errata in a 12 inch move? Go on. I'll buy one if you do!
Best regards.
Simon
"
The response I was met with was the following:
Hi,
Thank you for your email. The answers to your questions are as follows -
1. When using Leaper the Dimachaeron is affected normally by charging through difficult terrain, but does get the other listed benefits.
2. This is not an oversight. It is not a mindless killing machine, it is willing to fall back, re-group and attack again. Plus it is Leadership 10.
3. Its movement is correct. It was believed that Fast Attack was the correct section for the creature to be in, with regards to its abilities.
If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
Regards,
Forge World
While #1 was to be expected, #2 and #3 is a bunch of fail.
Makes sense to me, but then again I'm totally okay with fluff reasons for why things are the way they are. The lack is fearless isn't going to be an issue most of the time(for me anyway).
So I emailed forge world about the dimachaeron and have just had a response!
My email was:
Hi Forge World Team,
So I'm just flicking through my new imperial armour book and had two questions regarding the Dimachaeron rules- hope you can answer!
Question 1. As per the leaper rule, if a Dimachaeron assaults a unit in cover- does it strike at it's normal initiative 6 or is it slowed by difficult terrain? The wording suggests that as it moves freely and OVER terrain, it would not be effected.
Second query is I notice that it does not have the fearless USR. Is this an oversight? All other Tyranid mc's have the Fearless USR so just abit odd that this one doesn't.
One last thing, why is this a fast attack choice if it only moves 6? It's very slow! Maybe errata in a 12 inch move? Go on. I'll buy one if you do!
Best regards.
Simon
"
The response I was met with was the following:
Hi,
Thank you for your email. The answers to your questions are as follows -
1. When using Leaper the Dimachaeron is affected normally by charging through difficult terrain, but does get the other listed benefits.
2. This is not an oversight. It is not a mindless killing machine, it is willing to fall back, re-group and attack again. Plus it is Leadership 10.
3. Its movement is correct. It was believed that Fast Attack was the correct section for the creature to be in, with regards to its abilities.
If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
Regards,
Forge World
While #1 was to be expected, #2 and #3 is a bunch of fail.
Good messages from the hive, thanks a bunch for sharing N.I.B.
Also I actually lol'ed @ "Maybe errata in a 12 inch move? Go on. I'll buy one if you do!"
foto69man wrote: Thank you all for convincing me to buy this model...amazing detail and I can't wait to field it tomorrow!
Would you be an awesome human being and take some dimensions for me?
I will take dimensions and post pics of the battle tomorrw as it's 1:30a here. But she did AMAZING...didn't lose a wound...and popped out 20 gargoyles at the end to take an objective
And a slight teaser...
Here's the pic with measurements, and the wings are 14" from cannon to wing tip and 8" from joint to fullest point. Included a Banshee, Crisis Suit, Winged Tyrant, and Tyrannofex for size comparison
Cheers, is your Harridan magnetised/would it be to hard to magnetise the wings?
@DarkSabre, even without the str 10 attack it can still make 7 Str 7 ap2 attacks on the charge + plus hammer of wrath.
With regards to the 2nd list, make sure the tournament allows for double-CAD armies. If the tournament follows the lead of BAO/LVO/Nova, then they won't allow for dual-CAD armies. Check with the tournament first.
Personally, I don't have a problem with running 2x carnifexes as opposed to single fexes. The only disadvantage of a dual-fex build is they may run into problems if your opponent can kill off your backfield synapse. Otherwise, if you have to available slots (i.e. if the tournament allows for 2x CAD's), then go ahead and run them separately if you want. If not, then your only option would be to squadron them up.
I do, however, like the mawloc in the list. He may be a superstar in one game, or he may just miss all game. However, what I really like about him is his mobility and the fact that he affects how your opponent would play. Just having him in your list will restrict/affect how your opponent may deploy and how he would move his units (best case scenario is that it really discourages him from moving a unit that he should move). In this way, the mawloc is a force-multiplier of sorts and those types of units are always useful.
For competitive Tyranids, I believe there are 2 characteristics that makes them really competitive:
1. Mobility. You NEED high mobility in 7E. You NEED high mobility to compete with the top-tier tournament armies. If not, then a lot of armies are going to make your day. Moreover, you cannot rely on Onslaught or Master of Ambush to give you the mobility that you seek. Consider them a bonus. Otherwise, your army needs to be built on a solid foundation of mobility.
For your list, dual flyrants are a necessity. I consider them must-haves in any serious tournament Tyranid army that hopes to compete with the other top-tier armies. Heck, the more, the better. Run them as allies or in a formation to bring in more. The flyrant is arguably the most flexible unit in the army as well as its best force-multiplier unit. Mobility, resiliency (due to being a FMC), offense, anti-air unit, synapse and psychic beacon - the flyrant does it all and is the most well rounded unit in the codex. All the other HQ's are just role players that may be strong in 1 area but lacking in another. The all-purpose flyrant does it all and he does it quite well.
Mawloc has good mobility with the ability to pop up anywhere.
I like rippers because of their ability to enter the game almost anywhere. That flexibility alone is why I prefer them over gants nowadays. You can predict where gants will be. You can't really predict where the ripper swarms will be.
While carnifexes don't really have mobility, at least their firepower gives them some reach. That makes them better than non-fast Tyranid assault brutes. So they might not be the fastest, but at least they are respectable with their ability to reach-out-and-touch-somebody. However, if it were me, I'd consider swapping out 1 or 2 dakkafexes for other, faster units to complement your flyrants.
2. Force Multipliers. All the top-tier armies have them (well, almost all). A Force Multiplier Unit (FMU) is a unit that not only can stand on its own, but it helps to make the rest of the army better as well.
Flyrants are the best FMU in the codex.
Venomthrope is another high FMU unit which makes your entire army that much more resilient. And he's cheap too, which is great for a supporting unit.
Zoans are a cheap means to add synapse support in your backfield as well as to buff up your psychic prowess. He can also add some AT against heavy armor as a secondary source. And he's cheap too, which is great for a supporting unit.
Mawlocs provide one of the few AP2 offense in the army and will affect how your opponent deploys/moves his units.
Now going back to your list. You have respectable mobility, but you won't be able to keep up with the speed of the better armies. You have decent FMU's in your army, but a couple of weak points in it can really ruin your day. What are the problem areas in your list? There are 2 main ones:
1. Flyrants will be flying as a duet. Nothing in your list (other than the mawloc) can match the speed of your flyrants. You really need to take great care in how you use your flyrants. Otherwise, you will hit your opponents in waves (flyrants first, the rest of the army later), thus giving them time to try to focus down on your flyrants before dealing with the rest of the army. Especially if you are playing against Tau or Eldar, who excel in picking off trickling units.
2. The venomthrope protects the rest of the army and the zoanthrope provides synapse for them, but who will protect your venom/zoan? Unless there is terrain for them to hide as they advance, the more experienced player will pick off first your venom and then your zoan. You either need redundancy or something like a bastion to protect them or you pray that there is BLOS terrain conveniently placed near your deployment zone.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Thanks for the run down man! They had posted on dakka that it would most likely be 1500 pts, but I finally got a reply today and it looks like...
"The format will be very similar to past years (which are on our site). The army construction will be 1850 points - Battle Forged and all current 40K rules are legal (codex/supplement/dataslate/formation/Forge World). There will be no house rules. "
I take this to mean CAD is in (I think thats been a thing of theres, they try to keep it as close to the book as possible, which can be scary or cool, depending) so Ive basically combined these two lists to give...
I think we can all agree on most parts of this list. Zoey would have to kick out dominion, often, as would some of the tyrants. The independent Carnifexes require redundant firepower to kill, and the two venomthropes will obviously be walking behind them. Not everyone
will agree with Adrenal glands, but Ive never taken them on Carnifexes and regretted it. Its so important they make their charges once they are in range of whatever vehicle that needs to die, and it also makes the most out of turn 1 running and onslaught.
The Mawloc could be a Crone, but like J said it greatly affects the opponents movement. So do the wall of fexes, so heres hoping Im close to the list I want.
SHUPPET wrote: Every single army in the game outranges us. Even Orks have a shooting range advantage on us. If you are not playing Nids, and your opponent doubled down on this weakness,
This is the thing I dont understand about other fleets when it comes to spawning their armies. Why is it that we recognize the disadvantage of being outranged and outgun by every army but, we only apply it to our cc units? Is the dakkafex immune to these weapons? Is it less likely to be shoot to pieces before it can do anything than a dimachaeron? We say it is easy for us to be blasted off the table but in the same breath we say that living artillery is one of our better options, it cannot be both. I want to know how giving a tyranid a short range weapon makes it live longer?
SHUPPET wrote: by sinking 400-600 points into a couple of copies this guy - why the hell would you run directly at your opponent? It maka no sense. To highlight this flaw from a competitive perspective - you will never make it into combat with Eldar, you will never make it into combat with Tau or AM.
You are not running towards your enemy you are running towards an objective. Inorder to win the game they have to claim objectives, if you place objectives 12 inches away from each other combine with the large oval base you are threatning both objectives.
SHUPPET wrote: Against these armies, packing even one Dima is an auto-lose.
This is a little unfair, you cannot be inside the box that hard. In this post you mention ways you can use the dimachaeron so I know you dont believe this.
SHUPPET wrote: You now just sunk even 200 points into a creature with likely no return on - you will never even catch anything in Eldar or DE, they don't ever have to kill it. Against other shooty armies, best case scenario, you sacrifice all your aggression for a unit that threatens nothing till turn 3 (BEST case scenario gets you a turn 3, but often turn 4 against these armies), where they either choose to deal with it there and then, as you have been playing an army with a handicap of somewhere between -200 and -600 points for the first 3 turns, they likely have plenty of units left capable of dealing with it. Or they just let it wreak havoc for a turn or two. Better hope it deals 200 points of damage.
Placing objectives in the right position is the easiest way to make cc units relevant. I guess it is easy to see it as a point sink if you have a min-max list where you use rippers and try to max out on MCS. I dont know why list are posted up you need flyrants and dakkafexes is the response, .
CKO wrote: This is the thing I dont understand about other fleets when it comes to spawning our armies. Why is it that we recognize the disadvantage of being outranged and outgun by every army but, we only apply it to our cc units? Is the dakkafex immune to these weapons? Is it less likely to be shoot to pieces before it can do anything than a dimachaeron? We say it is easy for us to be blasted off the table but in the same breath we say that living artillery is one of our better options, it cannot be both. I want to know how giving a tyranid a short range weapon makes it live longer?
It doesn't make it live longer. It makes it have an effect longer.
A Dakkafex has a 24" bubble of effect. A Dime has ~14" bubble of effect. Bigger bubble == scarier.
I guess it is easy to see it as a point sink if you have a min-max list where you use rippers and try to max out on MCS.
rigeld2 wrote: It doesn't make it live longer. It makes it have an effect longer.
A Dakkafex has a 24" bubble of effect. A Dime has ~14" bubble of effect. Bigger bubble == scarier.
Scarier to who? Everything outranges that 24 inch bubble, 36 inch scatter lasers, bright/dark lances, and heavy burst cannons you will not touch your enemy if he puts any effort into it.
I guess it is easy to see it as a point sink if you have a min-max list where you use rippers and try to max out on MCS.
rigeld2 wrote: Which is a very popular build (and my favorite).
Its a good list but easily countered. Everyone seems to be throwing fast balls while you should be working on a curve ball especially when playing nids. You show up with flyrants and dakkafexes do you think your opponent knows what needs to be done?
rigeld2 wrote: It doesn't make it live longer. It makes it have an effect longer.
A Dakkafex has a 24" bubble of effect. A Dime has ~14" bubble of effect. Bigger bubble == scarier.
Scarier to who? Everything outranges that 24 inch bubble, 36 inch scatter lasers, bright/dark lances, and heavy burst cannons you will not touch your enemy if he puts any effort into it.
And somehow a Dime is going to magically cross that exact same distance? You realize you're defeating your own argument, right?
In addition, your opponents entire army is not made up of these fast moving high STR, high ROF weapon models. It just isn't. And your opponent also needs to hold objectives.
Dakkafexes have shown their value. Dimes are new and have a lot going against them.
Its a good list but easily countered. Everyone seems to be throwing fast balls while you should be working on a curve ball especially when playing nids. You show up with flyrants and dakkafexes do you think your opponent knows what needs to be done?
I'm sure he does. But a normal TAC doesn't usually have the high str high ROF shots that it takes to tackle a bunch of MCs.
Sure, if you tailor against it it's a trivial fight. What's your point?
rigeld2 wrote: And somehow a Dime is going to magically cross that exact same distance? You realize you're defeating your own argument, right?
In addition, your opponents entire army is not made up of these fast moving high STR, high ROF weapon models. It just isn't. And your opponent also needs to hold objectives.
Dakkafexes have shown their value. Dimes are new and have a lot going against them.
I'm sure he does. But a normal TAC doesn't usually have the high str high ROF shots that it takes to tackle a bunch of MCs.
Sure, if you tailor against it it's a trivial fight. What's your point?
The point is that all monstrous creatures except for flyers have the same survivability issues dont act like dakkafexes get a pass. Everything can be shot off the board before they do anything but its not something that only applies to cc units, it applies to the dakkafexes aswell. The same way you dedicate all your points towards medium range firepower you can do the same with cc units, its just that one is easier to do and requires you to take small bugs.
SHUPPET wrote: Every single army in the game outranges us. Even Orks have a shooting range advantage on us. If you are not playing Nids, and your opponent doubled down on this weakness,
This is the thing I dont understand about other fleets when it comes to spawning their armies. Why is it that we recognize the disadvantage of being outranged and outgun by every army but, we only apply it to our cc units? Is the dakkafex immune to these weapons? Is it less likely to be shoot to pieces before it can do anything than a dimachaeron? We say it is easy for us to be blasted off the table but in the same breath we say that living artillery is one of our better options, it cannot be both. I want to know how giving a tyranid a short range weapon makes it live longer?
You do get that nids are designed as a short range firepower army first, Assault army second? Despite the current fluff all being about the close combat, the original intent of the nids was to be a 6-18" army shooting army. This meant nids' also needed solid assault options. The lack of grenades despite strong melee capacity tends to reflect this still. The Flyrant and Dakkafex are posterbugs for this, massive short range firepower with enough assault to finish off the survivors.
rigeld2 wrote: And somehow a Dime is going to magically cross that exact same distance? You realize you're defeating your own argument, right?
In addition, your opponents entire army is not made up of these fast moving high STR, high ROF weapon models. It just isn't. And your opponent also needs to hold objectives.
Dakkafexes have shown their value. Dimes are new and have a lot going against them.
I'm sure he does. But a normal TAC doesn't usually have the high str high ROF shots that it takes to tackle a bunch of MCs.
Sure, if you tailor against it it's a trivial fight. What's your point?
The point is that all monstrous creatures except for flyers have the same survivability issues dont act like dakkafexes get a pass. Everything can be shot off the board before they do anything but its not something that only applies to cc units, it applies to the dakkafexes aswell. The same way you dedicate all your points towards medium range firepower you can do the same with cc units, its just that one is easier to do and requires you to take small bugs.
Yes it applies to Dakkafexes. The point is that Dakkafexes can contribute significantly sooner than a Dime can. And that's the issue with dedicating all your points into assault units. Unless they're fast they just won't make it into assault soon enough for them to matter.
I'm not excusing Dakkafexes at all. I'm saying that they have a larger bubble of effect and can therefore contribute better if the meta is all lascannons.
barnowl wrote: You do get that nids are designed as a short range firepower army first, Assault army second? Despite the current fluff all being about the close combat, the original intent of the nids was to be a 6-18" army shooting army. This meant nids' also needed solid assault options. The lack of grenades despite strong melee capacity tends to reflect this still. The Flyrant and Dakkafex are posterbugs for this, massive short range firepower with enough assault to finish off the survivors.
I believe list are designed not armies, all of the ranged weapons are assault weapons which in of itself means that they intended for the army to get in cc. Besides the tl devourers name another range weapon that makes our enemies jealous?
barnowl wrote: You do get that nids are designed as a short range firepower army first, Assault army second? Despite the current fluff all being about the close combat, the original intent of the nids was to be a 6-18" army shooting army. This meant nids' also needed solid assault options. The lack of grenades despite strong melee capacity tends to reflect this still. The Flyrant and Dakkafex are posterbugs for this, massive short range firepower with enough assault to finish off the survivors.
I believe list are designed not armies, all of the ranged weapons are assault weapons which in of itself means that they intended for the army to get in cc. Besides the tl devourers name another range weapon that makes our enemies jealous?
Tyranids are a much better shooty army than an assault army. The fluff denies this, but that's just how the army plays. And assault weapons are not just meant to assault after, it means that the army is designed to move and shoot. Tyranids are designed to be moving towards you at all times, and shooting all the way while they do. Tyranids have to keep moving at all times, or they will find themselves outgunned at range while they can't apply their full firepower. Sadly the only unit in our army that is actually good at shooting and assault is the Dakkafex, everything else is situational at best. Quite frankly I can and have gone entire games without declaring an assault and been very satisfied with the results. The Dakkafex is designed to shoot and then assault, but Tyranids are not.
foto69man wrote: Thank you all for convincing me to buy this model...amazing detail and I can't wait to field it tomorrow!
Would you be an awesome human being and take some dimensions for me?
I will take dimensions and post pics of the battle tomorrw as it's 1:30a here. But she did AMAZING...didn't lose a wound...and popped out 20 gargoyles at the end to take an objective
And a slight teaser...
Here's the pic with measurements, and the wings are 14" from cannon to wing tip and 8" from joint to fullest point. Included a Banshee, Crisis Suit, Winged Tyrant, and Tyrannofex for size comparison
Cheers, is your Harridan magnetised/would it be to hard to magnetise the wings?
@DarkSabre, even without the str 10 attack it can still make 7 Str 7 ap2 attacks on the charge + plus hammer of wrath.
Mine are pinned/glued. You might be able to magnetize using super strong magnets, but then you wouldn't be ale to get it near any electronics. Or use really large, strong pins. Steel rods?
barnowl wrote: You do get that nids are designed as a short range firepower army first, Assault army second? Despite the current fluff all being about the close combat, the original intent of the nids was to be a 6-18" army shooting army. This meant nids' also needed solid assault options. The lack of grenades despite strong melee capacity tends to reflect this still. The Flyrant and Dakkafex are posterbugs for this, massive short range firepower with enough assault to finish off the survivors.
I believe list are designed not armies, all of the ranged weapons are assault weapons which in of itself means that they intended for the army to get in cc. Besides the tl devourers name another range weapon that makes our enemies jealous?
You are missing the point. The point is that close combat monsters that have no ranged presence will not contribute anything to your offense for the first couple turns, during which they can be shot off the board. The good TMCs typically either have good shooting (Dakkafex, T-Fex) to allow them to do some damage on the way into combat, or a good way to get into combat in the first place (Mawloc), or both (Flyrant). There is no question that many Nid units are good in assault, but unfortunately many of our opponents have units that are better in assault than our units. Heck, even Orks can give Tyranids a run for their money. Lots of Boyz backed up with Klaws, charging on a Waagh! can easily rock a TMC's world and lose just a handful of Boyz in return. Our assault units also lack an Invuln save, which makes them pretty easy to ID with Force weapons and the like. That goes for Dima, as well. I also happen to not be very impressed by Dima's anti-vehicle capabilities, and that matters to me because I see a lot of AV14. A Fex, or frankly, a Haruspex, is going to do more work against high AVs than this guy at a lower price.
By all means, though, go ahead and try out Dima. I'm sure many people will be curious to see how it does, but it doesn't solve any problems for my army that I can't use another TMC to do. Let us know how it works out.
CKO wrote: If you want to limit yourself to two maybe three units go ahead but I will try to take advantage of all that the nids have to offer.
So you're just going to ignore what I was saying and pretend that's what I said?
Cool story, but I can promise you that you won't make Pyrovores into some magic unknown sleeper model.
CKO wrote: If you want to limit yourself to two maybe three units go ahead but I will try to take advantage of all that the nids have to offer.
Cool story, but I can promise you that you won't make Pyrovores into some magic unknown sleeper model.
I apologize riegld2 there are 3 good shooty units that I see the flyrant, dakkafex, and exocrines. I was trying to point that out, I did not mean to disregard what you are saying I am simply saying that getting into assault is possible but it will not work in a min max style list a min max cc list doesnt work.
Asmodas wrote: You are missing the point. The point is that close combat monsters that have no ranged presence will not contribute anything to your offense for the first couple turns, during which they can be shot off the board. The good TMCs typically either have good shooting (Dakkafex, T-Fex) to allow them to do some damage on the way into combat, or a good way to get into combat in the first place (Mawloc), or both (Flyrant). There is no question that many Nid units are good in assault, but unfortunately many of our opponents have units that are better in assault than our units. Heck, even Orks can give Tyranids a run for their money. Lots of Boyz backed up with Klaws, charging on a Waagh! can easily rock a TMC's world and lose just a handful of Boyz in return. Our assault units also lack an Invuln save, which makes them pretty easy to ID with Force weapons and the like. That goes for Dima, as well. I also happen to not be very impressed by Dima's anti-vehicle capabilities, and that matters to me because I see a lot of AV14. A Fex, or frankly, a Haruspex, is going to do more work against high AVs than this guy at a lower price.
By all means, though, go ahead and try out Dima. I'm sure many people will be curious to see how it does, but it doesn't solve any problems for my army that I can't use another TMC to do. Let us know how it works out.
I give up, I will not be able to convince other fleets that the assault phase is where its at. Just to be clear the overall consensus on this thread is that gettinng into cc is such a daunting task that all cc units in the codex is at a disadvantage thus bad.
I am sorry but my opinion on the Dimachaeron will not change we have been complaining about the Trygon forever and now we have a creature that is ws 8, i 6, has 7 - 10 atks a turn, str 8 ap 2 (fc), can get a 4+ feel no pain save, has a 4+ instant death rule, jumps six everyturn and we are complaining, CMON MAN!
CKO wrote: If you want to limit yourself to two maybe three units go ahead but I will try to take advantage of all that the nids have to offer.
Cool story, but I can promise you that you won't make Pyrovores into some magic unknown sleeper model.
I apologize riegld2 there are 3 good shooty units that I see the flyrant, dakkafex, and exocrines. I was trying to point that out, I did not mean to disregard what you are saying I am simply saying that getting into assault is possible but it will not work in a min max style list a min max cc list doesnt work.
Which has literally nothing to do with the issue we were talking about.
What you originally said:
This is the thing I dont understand about other fleets when it comes to spawning our armies. Why is it that we recognize the disadvantage of being outranged and outgun by every army but, we only apply it to our cc units
But what you're actually not understanding is that we recognize the disadvantage of being outranged on Dakkafexes, et. al. but we also recognize that there's a bubble of effective threat for every unit. Dakkafexes have a 24" bubble. Dimes have ~14". Which number is bigger?
I give up, I will not be able to convince other fleets that the assault phase is where its at. Just to be clear the overall consensus on this thread is that gettinng into cc is such a daunting task that all cc units in the codex is at a disadvantage thus bad.
No, that's what you want the overall consensus to be. What's actually been said is that for slow models (and Dime is a slow model. So is the Trygon, but it can Deep Strike) being restricted to CC is bad.
I am sorry but my opinion on the Dimachaeron will not change we have been complaining about the Trygon forever and now we have a creature that is ws 8, i 6, has 7 - 10 atks a turn, str 8 ap 2 (fc), can get a 4+ feel no pain save, has a 4+ instant death rule, jumps six everyturn and we are complaining, CMON MAN!
On paper the stats on a Dime are better. That's not the whole story though - it takes a Dime 2 turns to cross 24" (6" move plus 4" run, 6" move plus 8" charge) and it's exposed both turns. A Trygon (your comparison) is the same price (essentially) and makes it into assault one turn slower, but contributes through shooting on turn 2 and is only exposed to shooting for one turn. And if the distance is any greater than 24" (Hammer and Anvil, refused flank, opponent isn't stupid) the Dime takes longer to get there, but the Trygon always pops up in approximately the right place. The jump 6" every turn is a gimmick (assuming GW rules that it's moving through cover even though it's explicitly over cover).
You're looking at the stats in a vacuum and seeing that it's good. The rest of us are looking at the stats with table experience with Nids and seeing that some things just don't work. A model with 1000 attacks that instant kills everything with no saves allowed is crappy if it only moves 6" a turn and has no special deployment methods.
CKO wrote: If you want to limit yourself to two maybe three units go ahead but I will try to take advantage of all that the nids have to offer.
Cool story, but I can promise you that you won't make Pyrovores into some magic unknown sleeper model.
I apologize riegld2 there are 3 good shooty units that I see the flyrant, dakkafex, and exocrines. I was trying to point that out, I did not mean to disregard what you are saying I am simply saying that getting into assault is possible but it will not work in a min max style list a min max cc list doesnt work.
Asmodas wrote: You are missing the point. The point is that close combat monsters that have no ranged presence will not contribute anything to your offense for the first couple turns, during which they can be shot off the board. The good TMCs typically either have good shooting (Dakkafex, T-Fex) to allow them to do some damage on the way into combat, or a good way to get into combat in the first place (Mawloc), or both (Flyrant). There is no question that many Nid units are good in assault, but unfortunately many of our opponents have units that are better in assault than our units. Heck, even Orks can give Tyranids a run for their money. Lots of Boyz backed up with Klaws, charging on a Waagh! can easily rock a TMC's world and lose just a handful of Boyz in return. Our assault units also lack an Invuln save, which makes them pretty easy to ID with Force weapons and the like. That goes for Dima, as well. I also happen to not be very impressed by Dima's anti-vehicle capabilities, and that matters to me because I see a lot of AV14. A Fex, or frankly, a Haruspex, is going to do more work against high AVs than this guy at a lower price.
By all means, though, go ahead and try out Dima. I'm sure many people will be curious to see how it does, but it doesn't solve any problems for my army that I can't use another TMC to do. Let us know how it works out.
I give up, I will not be able to convince other fleets that the assault phase is where its at. Just to be clear the overall consensus on this thread is that gettinng into cc is such a daunting task that all cc units in the codex is at a disadvantage thus bad.
I am sorry but my opinion on the Dimachaeron will not change we have been complaining about the Trygon forever and now we have a creature that is ws 8, i 6, has 7 - 10 atks a turn, str 8 ap 2 (fc), can get a 4+ feel no pain save, has a 4+ instant death rule, jumps six everyturn and we are complaining, CMON MAN!
You are missing a number of other good shooters on your list: Biovores, T-Fex (with Acid Spray, of course), Warriors, Shrikes, Crones, Harpies, Devilgaunts. So it is not like there are only three units.
And, again, assault is great if you can get there. I know you are new to the army, but the $200 you spend on this gribbly could get you a Flyrant, a Carnifex and a Crone. People are trying to convince you not to make a mistake with your new army. Trust me, I know. I'm the guy who built a Haruspex because it looked cool (and it still does look cool). So, Caveat emptor, and good luck.
I give up, I will not be able to convince other fleets that the assault phase is where its at. Just to be clear the overall consensus on this thread is that gettinng into cc is such a daunting task that all cc units in the codex is at a disadvantage thus bad.
Unfortunately, due to the strong shooting of some of the top armies (Tau and Eldar), assault nids, while fun, just isn't viable anymore, at least not in competitive play.
Assault is only viable via Maximum Threat Overload strategy, where the assault units need to be highly mobile, and even then, it still cannot fully compete with the top tournament armies.
MTO shooty Tyranids is IMO our most competitive builds. In such an army, units are ideally at least dual roles, either fast and shooty or fast and assaulty or assaulty and shooty. Also, assaulty doesn't necessarily have to be killy. Assaulty could be a tarpit unit meant to tie up enemy offensive units.
I am sorry but my opinion on the Dimachaeron will not change we have been complaining about the Trygon forever and now we have a creature that is ws 8, i 6, has 7 - 10 atks a turn, str 8 ap 2 (fc), can get a 4+ feel no pain save, has a 4+ instant death rule, jumps six everyturn and we are complaining, CMON MAN!
Actually, I agree. The Dima isn't a competitive unit. He doesn't have what it takes to make the army competitive enough against the top armies. However, that doesn't mean he isn't a good unit either. He could work in the right list. More importantly, at least for me, is that he gives bugs an assault presence that demands respect once again. Currently, our assault units really are a joke. However, the Dima makes Tyranid an army to be feared again in a walking Tyranid list. A couple of dimas, flyrants, hive guards, venom(s), a tervigon (or 2) and exocrines/dakkafexes/tyrannofex makes for a resilient walking wall of Tyranid shooting death.
From what i see in ForgeWorld, there's two different Stonecrusher Carnifexes. Is it just esthetic or can you choose different weapons/stats?
Anyone know if they are the same size as normal carnifexes? Though i think the one i have is an older model, so maybe not even the same size as the present carnifexes. =/
Anyone could tell me about how much points a Heirophant and a Harridan cost? Trying to see if they are a good deal $/points wise.
Stonecrushers are based on the current carnifexes, but their carapace makes them just slightly bigger. They used to have 2 different configurations, but I don't know how they've changed with the Imperial Armour book.
It is against Forum rules to post point costs, but the hierophant is about a grand and the harridan about 700-750-ish.
I use the assault phase plain and simple. I dont have a problem with shooty nidzilla list its a good list. Its an archetype rock, paper, scissors both you and your opponent will know how to beat you. I throw curve balls and slow balls, the tactic that is used to beat this:
CKO wrote: I use the assault phase plain and simple. I dont have a problem with shooty nidzilla list its a good list. Its an archetype rock, paper, scissors both you and your opponent will know how to beat you. I throw curve balls and slow balls, the tactic that is used to beat this:
He doesn't have what it takes to make the army competitive enough against the top armies. However, that doesn't mean he isn't a good unit either.
Certainly doesn't. The fact that he doesn't have what it takes to make our army competitive enough against bottom tier armies it what means he isn't a good unit.
Well, any excuse for me to run the dimas will do.
Yeah. And let's stop pretending it's anything other than this.
Ran up against a Tau list...won't be able to recall it all, but it had a unit of 3 Broadsides, Riptide, Skyray, Hammerhead, a couple units of firewarriors and pathfinders, some suits...yada yada yada.
The game was randomly selected: Purge the Alien. Ugh...and here I was hoping to somehow pull out the win by securing objectives. Forcing a smile to my face, I prepared to make a good game of getting shot off the board (I try to be a pleasure to play with no matter what), but something funny happened on the way to me getting the bejeezus blown out of my bugs.
I won.
And not by just a little...it was all but decided by turn 3. Too make a long story short, I had the first turn, rushed everything at him as fast as possible (overloading the Broadsides with at least 4 target units that could be in assault as early as turn 2) and braced for what was assuredly going to be a routine of me picking my models off the table. He had an overall less than average round of hits and wounds, and basically that was it. My hormagants and genestealers were able to get into his lines and the rest of the game was just mop up duty.
Now...I'm sure he could have made some better decisions. I told him as we shook hands that I felt the result of the game wasn't a good representation of what SHOULD have happened. I was lucky that his less than average round of shooting happened in the first round rather than, say, the 5th, but I couldn't have been happier with how my "balanced, leaning towards assault heavy" force fared against the Tau gunline.
I'll most likely get tabled next time I face Tau, but knowing things like that are possible has got me back into painting my bugs rather than spending my hobby time on Blood Angel stuff while I wait on their new codex.
CKO making this split between assault and shooting is where you need to tighten your strategy up and bring it together as one, in a cohesive effort. This whole "we don't have the firepower to outshoot other armies so why bother trying" thing is really misguided, in a Mexican stand off with all units in range, we actually have so much Dakka it's insane, we outshoot Tau by a margin ignoring range penalties. Assault is a tool we must use - it can add extra damage in a turn, tie up enemy units from shooting, hold them for something else to get into range, pile in supporting assaults to win any combat. Our Dakka units have a combat advantage on practically every army except heavily assault based armies who are generally great match ups anyway due to the nature of such short ranges high power weaponry. The Tyranid design is actually a good one for the most part, however dedicated assault MCs like Harry n Dimmy do not mesh well with this. It sacrifices firepower, mobility, AND durability, for one of two big silly assault that it will likely rarely see. Doubling down on assault with him is bad. Stealers can get away with it, they sacrifice both durability and firepower but gain on mobility with Infiltrate / outflank practically securing their big assault for the second turn. Trygons back when they were good, worked because while only being equally durable as Dimmy, they had Deepstrike to put them anywhere and everywhere on the map, securing assaults. Comparing them in a vacuum and saying the Dimmy is stronger than in assault is ignoring what you are actually getting with the model, and not a fair discussion at all. As is ignoring a points value.
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CKO wrote: I use the assault phase plain and simple. I dont have a problem with shooty nidzilla list its a good list. Its an archetype rock, paper, scissors both you and your opponent will know how to beat you. I throw curve balls and slow balls, the tactic that is used to beat this:
Flyrant
Flyrant
Ripper Swarm
Ripper Swarm
X amount of Dakkafexex
Living Artillery or Skyblight Formation
Will have a hard time beating my list.
A lot of what you said here is off base, but not least of which is the part where you said your list will beat a Skyblight or Dakkafex Artillery list. These two lists are practically the hardest counter available in the game to assault based armies after Cron air. Now consider that you are playing the SLOWEST assault army in the game which incidentally, hits the least hardest in combat out of anything you could call an assault army / assault list.
Sorry, but your list will lose sooo hard against other standard Nids, it's where they excel. And I mean, you will get more victories vs Tau and Eldar, combined. And you won't see a whole lot wins vs them either, but standard Nids is THE worst possible match up in the game for assault Nids, after Flyer Spam.
I think it's time you followed my advice and went out and play tested some of your statements befor parading theory as fact. Theory is important in 40k as nothing is ever "assured", but at the moment as a self-confessed new player of Nids without a single game under your belt with them, you do not have the game sense or knowledge regarding them to do this accurately - and it shows. Not being elitist, but the fact is, your theory has massive holes in it that you would discover after merely a single game of testing it, and the way you deliver it as if it's a hard proven and tested fact results in you contributing negatively to competitive discussion.
CKO wrote: I use the assault phase plain and simple.
So do I. You're a fool not to use all 4 phases of the game where warranted and possible.
I dont have a problem with shooty nidzilla list its a good list. Its an archetype rock, paper, scissors both you and your opponent will know how to beat you. I throw curve balls and slow balls, the tactic that is used to beat this:
Are you just posturing now? Not willing to admit you made poor assumptions in our prior discussion? Have you learned anything?
Yes, tactics that work against one army list won't work against another army list. News at 11.
Next revelation from the new-to-Nids player?
He doesn't have what it takes to make the army competitive enough against the top armies. However, that doesn't mean he isn't a good unit either.
Certainly doesn't. The fact that he doesn't have what it takes to make our army competitive enough against bottom tier armies it what means he isn't a good unit.
Well, any excuse for me to run the dimas will do.
Yeah. And let's stop pretending it's anything other than this.
Methinks you really under-estimate the usability of Dimey.
Sure he may not be the fastest. But a fleeting Dima without any shooting means he's most likely moving 10" a turn (move + re-rollable running) and not slowed by terrain. 6W T6 is nothing to laugh at, especially when supported by shrouded vemonthrope/malanthrope cover and with Catalyst from a flyrant. Once he gets into assault range, he will kill anything that is not a land raider or a deathstar. If you are shooting at him, then you are not shooting at those flyrants. If you are shooting at those flyrants, then there is a great chance that he will make it into assault.
He is worth a try, and I not talking about just the aesthetics of the model. I am talking about the fact that he will help a tyranid army much as a wraithknight can help out an Eldar army. This guy's main purpose is for board control in a Tyranid army because he is just that much of an assault threat.
To group him as not being even competitive enough to beat bottom-tier armies? I don't know what type of kool-aid you're drinking.
He doesn't have what it takes to make the army competitive enough against the top armies. However, that doesn't mean he isn't a good unit either.
Certainly doesn't. The fact that he doesn't have what it takes to make our army competitive enough against bottom tier armies it what means he isn't a good unit.
Well, any excuse for me to run the dimas will do.
Yeah. And let's stop pretending it's anything other than this.
Methinks you really under-estimate the usability of Dimey.
Sure he may not be the fastest. But a fleeting Dima without any shooting means he's most likely moving 10" a turn (move + re-rollable running) and not slowed by terrain. 6W T6 is nothing to laugh at, especially when supported by shrouded vemonthrope/malanthrope cover and with Catalyst from a flyrant. Once he gets into assault range, he will kill anything that is not a land raider or a deathstar. If you are shooting at him, then you are not shooting at those flyrants. If you are shooting at those flyrants, then there is a great chance that he will make it into assault.
He is worth a try, and I not talking about just the aesthetics of the model. I am talking about the fact that he will help a tyranid army much as a wraithknight can help out an Eldar army. This guy's main purpose is for board control in a Tyranid army because he is just that much of an assault threat.
To group him as not being even competitive enough to beat bottom-tier armies? I don't know what type of kool-aid you're drinking.
I completely agree with this. The board control that you can gain from a Dimey or two is not to be underestimated. Give him some malanthrope cover and make the magic happen. I think that jy2 brings up a great point about Maximum Threat Overload lists being the place for this guy. Grab 2-3 flyrants, a Mawloc or two, and maybe even some Genestealer squads along with a couple Dimeys. No, it won't win a top-tier tournament, but Dimey can help to make some serious target prioritization nightmares with no great answers for the opponent. Definitely something that I look forward to trying out, and not just because I definitely want to field this model.
You can keep saying it's a threat, but it doesn't make it one. The name of the build with multiple of these in it should be called "minimum threat overload".
I think I'm done with the subject though, I have nothing else to contribute, any response to this would likely be just pointing towards some of my other posts, as it's all already been said, and largely ignored. Anyone who wants to play it, feel free. The model sucks, bigger and hungrier does not equal better, just ask the Trygon and the Swarmlord. But meh the initial hype is sure to muddle peoples opinions on it. At least the model is really cool (if unimaginative) I couldn't fault anyone for wanting one of these on the shelf. He definitely is in the "fun n cool" category with Swarmy, Old One Eye, stone crushers, etc. models that are really powerful but really unreliable and overpriced, and rely LARGELY on your opponent being a bad.
The problem with DIma is the same as all of our assault units; assault kind of sucks in 7E, and they tend to be fairly slow.
BUT.... the big difference is the potential pay-off. Dima hits a unit and gets (in essence) 9 powerfist attacks at I6 (or 5?) with WS8. And once it hits, it (likely) gets a 4+ FnP roll for the rest of the game.
It *does* have an achilles heal... lack of speed and lack of invuln save. Unlike a wraithknight etc, it will have trouble doing its job by itself. But catalyst.... or Shrouded.... now it has a decent chance of making it across the board. Or at least taking a *lot* of firepower to bring it down. And it forces your opponent to act a certain way. He really *has* to devote resources to take it down right away; he can't wait a couple of turns...
And I don't understand the concept of 3-4 turns of move-run before it can get into CC. I see 2 turns of Run *max*; it should be in CC turn 2 or 3. Sure, if the enemy is willing to back their entire army into a corner... maybe longer. But if I can spend 200pts to let me control 80% of the battlefield... that is points well spent.
To be fair 7E is much more supportive of assault armies than 6E was. If assault could be viable (not in top tier play) in 6E then it surely can be in 7E.
I know that the list i usually run has the termagants shooting...and that's it.
On a different note, has anyone actually played with Crushing Claw Tyrant Guard in their lists? I've been running a Walking Tyrant with a pair of them lately just to get a feel for them and the Guard have been doing fantastic! Each one is basically the offensive capabilities of a Crushing Claw Tervigon (but with WS5!) for a third of the cost. Thus far, they have consistently out-damaged their Hive Tyrant against everything they've been thrown against (Bikers, Necrons, Wraith Constructs, Nobs) which makes me wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to include one or two single-model broods in a list with flyrants. A single T6 2 wound model seems a huge waste to shoot at with other T6 multi-wound models running about and their comparatively small size makes them both easy to hide them and seemingly non-threatening.
CKO wrote: Besides the tl devourers name another range weapon that makes our enemies jealous?
1. Bioplasmic Cannon (no Gets Hot)
2. Thorax Weapons, specifically Shreddershard Beetles and Electroshock Grubs.
3. Impaler Cannons
jy2 wrote: Stonecrushers are based on the current carnifexes, but their carapace makes them just slightly bigger. They used to have 2 different configurations, but I don't know how they've changed with the Imperial Armour book.
It is against Forum rules to post point costs, but the hierophant is about a grand and the harridan about 700-750-ish.
Thanks! I though i remember seeing lists with full point costs, so i didn't realize it was against the rules, sorry!
coredump wrote: The SC fex has two different weapon load-outs.
Dual Wrecker Claw is standard, and for a few points you can upgrade to one wrecker claw and a flail.
Thanks! From what i saw, Dual Wrecker Claw is for tanks/buildings and the flail for infantry?
I've run the Dima in a game against marines and it worked pretty well! Got a couple of things wrong with the weapon load out. ( crazy amounts of rules for one unit to take note off so please forgive my mistakes!)
Check out for yourself if you like! I won't post any spoilers
Wilson wrote: I've run the Dima in a game against marines and it worked pretty well! Got a couple of things wrong with the weapon load out. ( crazy amounts of rules for one unit to take note off so please forgive my mistakes!)
Check out for yourself if you like! I won't post any spoilers
Possibly buffed in miniscule ways at best like a slight meta shift, for your standard choppy-units-in-vehicles assault armies.
For us however, the major changes to 7E assault are wings getting nerfed for assaults FMCs, and Smash getting destroyed. I'm not sure how 7E benefits us in assault, but I'm tired ATM and might just be struggling to recall key changes. P sure we got nerfed tho >
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Wilson wrote: I've run the Dima in a game against marines and it worked pretty well! Got a couple of things wrong with the weapon load out. ( crazy amounts of rules for one unit to take note off so please forgive my mistakes!)
Check out for yourself if you like! I won't post any spoilers
Nice BR. I think Marines are one of the best match ups where Dimmy can find itself as I mentioned in my post, however it's situational as fast Grav/a healthy amount of AT will just make him an overpriced Fire magnet... I typed that out before reading the battle report, looking at your opponents list I thought you were going to be at a massive disadvantage for bringing him. However, in practice... Your opponent moves up the board, conciously puts himself into charge range, then proceeds to ignore it for it the rest of the game, in favor of prioritising the Crones & a Zoanthrope! This is possibly the absolute worst target priority he could have made other than focusing on the freaking Termagants! Wait, they were reserved - yep this was literally the worst target priority possible. Worth noting that the turn they arrive he fires Plasma Cannons and the Stormtalons at the 2 10 man Gant squads while you had Flyrants & Exocrine on the field unengaged as well! He also proceeds to leave Bikes in charge range of the Dimac, the first three turns of the game. Not even learning his lesson after feeding the first squad of Marines to it. I can understand being unfamiliar with a new model not in your army and it's possible this worked to your favor, but judging by many of this guys decisions I don't think it would have made a difference. Using the prescienced Grav bikes to focus the Crone and not the doubly expensive far more threatening and easier to kill Flyrant, not taking advantage of bikes expensive mobility by focusing an FMC at all instead choosing to split fire spreading a couple of wounds between many, choosing to leave the Crone on a single wound, not using the mobility for anything at all leaving himself in charge range, on turn 3 still continuing to focus the practically Harmless remaining Crone, etc etc. I noticed your bloggers touched on the fact that he was silly for not even firing a shot at the Dimac, but that was just the half of it, your opponent used his entire army to practically minimum effeciency for as far as I could track it (can't really imagine what that board looked like lategame, but I think the only thing he did in the early game that made sense was presciencing the Bikes. Wasted it ofc, but was good recipient for the buff).
That being said, I found your writing style enjoyable and your BR style fun concise visual and easy to follow. I'll definitely be tuning into your blog, wouldn't mind reading a good BR like that again and seeing how the Dimmy fares against a slightly (or vastly) higher level opponent.
Also, the paintwork on your Biovores makes them look like quadriplegic Wraithguard. And I'm being serious lol.
Wilson wrote: I've run the Dima in a game against marines and it worked pretty well! Got a couple of things wrong with the weapon load out. ( crazy amounts of rules for one unit to take note off so please forgive my mistakes!)
Check out for yourself if you like! I won't post any spoilers
SHUPPET wrote: Possibly buffed in miniscule ways at best like a slight meta shift, for your standard choppy-units-in-vehicles assault armies.
For us however, the major changes to 7E assault are wings getting nerfed for assaults FMCs, and Smash getting destroyed. I'm not sure how 7E benefits us in assault, but I'm tired ATM and might just be struggling to recall key changes. P sure we got nerfed tho >
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wilson wrote: I've run the Dima in a game against marines and it worked pretty well! Got a couple of things wrong with the weapon load out. ( crazy amounts of rules for one unit to take note off so please forgive my mistakes!)
Check out for yourself if you like! I won't post any spoilers
Nice BR. I think Marines are one of the best match ups where Dimmy can find itself as I mentioned in my post, however it's situational as fast Grav/a healthy amount of AT will just make him an overpriced Fire magnet... I typed that out before reading the battle report, looking at your opponents list I thought you were going to be at a massive disadvantage for bringing him. However, in practice... Your opponent moves up the board, conciously puts himself into charge range, then proceeds to ignore it for it the rest of the game, in favor of prioritising the Crones & a Zoanthrope! This is possibly the absolute worst target priority he could have made other than focusing on the freaking Termagants! Wait, they were reserved - yep this was literally the worst target priority possible. Worth noting that the turn they arrive he fires Plasma Cannons and the Stormtalons at the 2 10 man Gant squads while you had Flyrants & Exocrine on the field unengaged as well! He also proceeds to leave Bikes in charge range of the Dimac, the first three turns of the game. Not even learning his lesson after feeding the first squad of Marines to it. I can understand being unfamiliar with a new model not in your army and it's possible this worked to your favor, but judging by many of this guys decisions I don't think it would have made a difference. Using the prescienced Grav bikes to focus the Crone and not the doubly expensive far more threatening and easier to kill Flyrant, not taking advantage of bikes expensive mobility by focusing an FMC at all instead choosing to split fire spreading a couple of wounds between many, choosing to leave the Crone on a single wound, not using the mobility for anything at all leaving himself in charge range, on turn 3 still continuing to focus the practically Harmless remaining Crone, etc etc. I noticed your bloggers touched on the fact that he was silly for not even firing a shot at the Dimac, but that was just the half of it, your opponent used his entire army to practically minimum effeciency for as far as I could track it (can't really imagine what that board looked like lategame, but I think the only thing he did in the early game that made sense was presciencing the Bikes. Wasted it ofc, but was good recipient for the buff).
That being said, I found your writing style enjoyable and your BR style fun concise visual and easy to follow. I'll definitely be tuning into your blog, wouldn't mind reading a good BR like that again and seeing how the Dimmy fares against a slightly (or vastly) higher level opponent.
Also, the paintwork on your Biovores makes them look like quadriplegic Wraithguard. And I'm being serious lol.
Haha! I've just sent my brother your comments about his game play which are awesome!
He did fail to apply any shots on the Dima but to be fair to him it was completely out of range/LOS and by the second turn I made a lengthy charge.( the reason the bikers where there ( and I'm guessing this) was to grab the relic and get out of the way early) The Dima was either locked in cc or out of Los for a large part of the game so it was difficult to get any hits on it.
it was kill points so I guess he was going for the easiest targets and we weren't actually taking note of how many we where racking up until the end of the game as it was just a friendly!
I'm really glad you enjoyed it, I've got a few more games I'll be adding up soon so feel free to check them out too!
The biovores- haha! I don't even know what you mean but thank you! Lol
You infiltrated the Dima, with the mobility of bikes the only reason that you were able to charge but him not shoot is due to his bad positioning. Also possibly LOS but that's more due to you using what I believe is the head of a Trygon as your counts-as. I believe the official model is much taller right. Also, while not dedicating another unit to finishing off the Crone payed off for him, this was strictly due to you rolling a clutch ass fail on a grounding check, and still a bad play. Plus he should have been prioritizing the Flyrant over the Crone. well really, anything over the Crone except infantry lol.
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jifel wrote: Maybe he meant quadruped, not quadriplegic?
The report itself was very well done, it was nice to see the "Dima" in action! Very good game.
Hmmm I believe I did lol. This phone is 1 excellent example on Japanese design. Small keypad sleek design and sucks at English.
Look at those Biovores tho lol - I immediately saw doggystyle Wraithguard for some reason
Automatically Appended Next Post: "wheel-barrow race" wraithguard to be pc
SHUPPET wrote: You infiltrated the Dima, with the mobility of bikes the only reason that you were able to charge but him not shoot is due to his bad positioning. Also possibly LOS but that's more due to you using what I believe is the head of a Trygon as your counts-as. I believe the official model is much taller right. Also, while not dedicating another unit to finishing off the Crone payed off for him, this was strictly due to you rolling a clutch ass fail on a grounding check, and still a bad play. Plus he should have been prioritizing the Flyrant over the Crone. well really, anything over the Crone except infantry lol.
I did infiltrate the Dima but due to his bikes max threat range I felt like I had to hold him back as far as possible( I wanted him to do something before dying!) + it was completely out of range of practically everything for two whole turns! we counted it as being 6 inches tall so there was no restriction to Los there- Sorry, I should have said that while I typed it up!
How did he lose combat after doing 4 wounds (meaning he took 5+) and then lose combat by 2 wounds (meaning he took 2) and was still alive? He only has 6 wounds...
rigeld2 wrote: How did he lose combat after doing 4 wounds (meaning he took 5+) and then lose combat by 2 wounds (meaning he took 2) and was still alive? He only has 6 wounds...
hey!
so I made a typo on the number of bikers the Dima had killed as the exocrine and biovores also took down 2 or 3 ( I can't remember exactly and I've thrown my notes away!) I'll check with my brother but he did NOT lose more than 6 wounds ....
I like it! It will, as always, depend on the list you play against, but I think that the Dimas will have enough support to be effective here.
Oh yeah. Malan-in-a-box instead of venom-in-a-box.
Whenever I look at a unit (such as the Dima), I don't just look at him in a vacuum. Rather, I look at how he can synergize with an army. It's not just about the model, but rather, how he can function within the framework of the army and how he can benefit it. While the Dima isn't a particularly great overall unit like the flyrant, he does bring something to the army that can make him useful.
I'm looking forward to this! what are you playing?
Thanks. Don't know what I am playing against yet. The BAO is in just 2 days so there will be a lot of people there practicing with their tournament lists. I figure I will be their cannon fodder. Haha....j.k.!
In any case, I can always play against my friend's AV13-spam tournament Sisters army with 9 AV13 vehicles and an Imperial Knight! I mean that guy's army has got potentially 36 S8 AP1 shots (and 2 S8 AP3 large blasts)!
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Actually, going to change my list slightly.
Flyrant - Egrubs
Flyrant - Egrubs
Flyrant
Malanthrope
Zoan
3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers - DS 3x Rippers - DS
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
2x Biovores
Dakkafex
Dakkafex
Bastion
1845
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Wilson wrote: I've run the Dima in a game against marines and it worked pretty well! Got a couple of things wrong with the weapon load out. ( crazy amounts of rules for one unit to take note off so please forgive my mistakes!)
Check out for yourself if you like! I won't post any spoilers
Good fight. I like the fact that you try to minimize the spam with your list. While my competitive lists include some spam for redundancy reasons, I'm trying to minimize that for my more casual lists.
Dropping a Biovore and EGrubs, and adding a Zoan should be a wash in points, but how'd you go from 1850 to 1845? If you are at 1845, I'd drop DS on one ripper to get the Grubs back, as you'll likely have one objective you can walk onto easily. Other than that, looks good! Do you think you'll need the extra Zoan in there?
As to Malan in a box, I'd just like to point out that "BastionThrope" stays unchanged no matter what's inside!
Thanks for the run down man! They had posted on dakka that it would most likely be 1500 pts, but I finally got a reply today and it looks like...
"The format will be very similar to past years (which are on our site). The army construction will be 1850 points - Battle Forged and all current 40K rules are legal (codex/supplement/dataslate/formation/Forge World). There will be no house rules. "
I take this to mean CAD is in (I think thats been a thing of theres, they try to keep it as close to the book as possible, which can be scary or cool, depending) so Ive basically combined these two lists to give...
I think we can all agree on most parts of this list. Zoey would have to kick out dominion, often, as would some of the tyrants. The independent Carnifexes require redundant firepower to kill, and the two venomthropes will obviously be walking behind them. Not everyone
will agree with Adrenal glands, but Ive never taken them on Carnifexes and regretted it. Its so important they make their charges once they are in range of whatever vehicle that needs to die, and it also makes the most out of turn 1 running and onslaught.
The Mawloc could be a Crone, but like J said it greatly affects the opponents movement. So do the wall of fexes, so heres hoping Im close to the list I want.
I like it!
I could totally see myself running a list like this if I wasn't bringing Skyblight to my next tournament already.
jifel wrote: Dropping a Biovore and EGrubs, and adding a Zoan should be a wash in points, but how'd you go from 1850 to 1845? If you are at 1845, I'd drop DS on one ripper to get the Grubs back, as you'll likely have one objective you can walk onto easily. Other than that, looks good! Do you think you'll need the extra Zoan in there?
As to Malan in a box, I'd just like to point out that "BastionThrope" stays unchanged no matter what's inside!
I thought biovores were 45-pts? Don't have my book right now so going off memory. I will re-check my list when I get home later.
I feel naked without my zoan in my backfield. Lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But I see your point about the egrubs. Added. And since I'm going with Tyranid allies, might as well split up the biovores.
jifel wrote: Dropping a Biovore and EGrubs, and adding a Zoan should be a wash in points, but how'd you go from 1850 to 1845? If you are at 1845, I'd drop DS on one ripper to get the Grubs back, as you'll likely have one objective you can walk onto easily. Other than that, looks good! Do you think you'll need the extra Zoan in there?
As to Malan in a box, I'd just like to point out that "BastionThrope" stays unchanged no matter what's inside!
I thought biovores were 45-pts? Don't have my book right now so going off memory. I will re-check my list when I get home later.
I feel naked without my zoan in my backfield. Lol.
jifel wrote: Dropping a Biovore and EGrubs, and adding a Zoan should be a wash in points, but how'd you go from 1850 to 1845? If you are at 1845, I'd drop DS on one ripper to get the Grubs back, as you'll likely have one objective you can walk onto easily. Other than that, looks good! Do you think you'll need the extra Zoan in there?
As to Malan in a box, I'd just like to point out that "BastionThrope" stays unchanged no matter what's inside!
I thought biovores were 45-pts? Don't have my book right now so going off memory. I will re-check my list when I get home later.
I feel naked without my zoan in my backfield. Lol.
Strat_N8 wrote: On a different note, has anyone actually played with Crushing Claw Tyrant Guard in their lists? I've been running a Walking Tyrant with a pair of them lately just to get a feel for them and the Guard have been doing fantastic! Each one is basically the offensive capabilities of a Crushing Claw Tervigon (but with WS5!) for a third of the cost. Thus far, they have consistently out-damaged their Hive Tyrant against everything they've been thrown against (Bikers, Necrons, Wraith Constructs, Nobs) which makes me wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to include one or two single-model broods in a list with flyrants. A single T6 2 wound model seems a huge waste to shoot at with other T6 multi-wound models running about and their comparatively small size makes them both easy to hide them and seemingly non-threatening.
CKO wrote: I will explain the units and upgrades that are not as popular. The tyrant guard unit is probably the first thing I use that isnt seen alot or at all because of the death of the walking Hive Tyrant. I think these guys are really good and is one of the gems in the codex. The majority of our monstrous creatures besides the Hive Tyrant and the expensive Trygon all have ws 3 making their 3-4 attacks damn near useless as you only get 2 hits. Well Tyrant Guard have WS 5, this squad has rending and crushing claws giving them 3 ws 5 atks at str 6 or 7 each. On the charge you are getting 8 Ws 5 str 7 ap 2 av bane atks all for 150 points that is in my opinion the best monstrous creature like option we have and it is very point efficient. You will be hitting marines on 3's and killing on 2's and vehicles will be wrecked with ease because of av bane and, with 2 guys you can multi-charge to try to kill multiple vehicles. This unit does what our monstrous creatures are suppose to do in cc, and if one of them dies the other one is technically just as good as our other monstrous creatures with 3 atks.
Yes, my 1850 list that I posted a few pages ago uses 2 squads of them for the reasons listed above, I have a knack for noticing and getting the best out of each unit. By popular belief the unit is not considered good because it needs to be in cc but as you have notice by your own personal experience the unit is very good.
CKO wrote: Besides the tl devourers name another range weapon that makes our enemies jealous?
Strat_N8 wrote: 1. Bioplasmic Cannon (no Gets Hot)
2. Thorax Weapons, specifically Shreddershard Beetles and Electroshock Grubs.
3. Impaler Cannons
The bioplasmic cannon and impaler cannons are bs 3 meaning they hit on 4's spending 160 plus points for 3 str 8 hits, 3 str 7 ap 2 hits, or a short ranged str 7 ap 2 blast template is not something to be jealous of nor is it point effienct. I did forget the thorax weapons which are good.
Thank you JY2 for making a list that can maximize the potential of the dimachaeron with your skill, your battle report will put to sleep this myth about cc on this thread.
Your 3rd turn is going to be hell for whoever you play against despite them knowing your list. You should have great board control, if you dont see a death blow on turn 3 you can simply move to the middle of the field and dare your opponent to get closer. To many tl-devourers on the board but the threat of the dimachaeron is going to be the nail in the coffin. With the right psychic powers your list will be hard to beat. On a side note is this list legal at the BAO, how can you get that 3rd Flyrant in there without a formation?
Ran up against a Tau list...won't be able to recall it all, but it had a unit of 3 Broadsides, Riptide, Skyray, Hammerhead, a couple units of firewarriors and pathfinders, some suits...yada yada yada.
The game was randomly selected: Purge the Alien. Ugh...and here I was hoping to somehow pull out the win by securing objectives. Forcing a smile to my face, I prepared to make a good game of getting shot off the board (I try to be a pleasure to play with no matter what), but something funny happened on the way to me getting the bejeezus blown out of my bugs.
I won.
And not by just a little...it was all but decided by turn 3. Too make a long story short, I had the first turn, rushed everything at him as fast as possible (overloading the Broadsides with at least 4 target units that could be in assault as early as turn 2) and braced for what was assuredly going to be a routine of me picking my models off the table. He had an overall less than average round of hits and wounds, and basically that was it. My hormagants and genestealers were able to get into his lines and the rest of the game was just mop up duty.
Now...I'm sure he could have made some better decisions. I told him as we shook hands that I felt the result of the game wasn't a good representation of what SHOULD have happened. I was lucky that his less than average round of shooting happened in the first round rather than, say, the 5th, but I couldn't have been happier with how my "balanced, leaning towards assault heavy" force fared against the Tau gunline.
I'll most likely get tabled next time I face Tau, but knowing things like that are possible has got me back into painting my bugs rather than spending my hobby time on Blood Angel stuff while I wait on their new codex.
Fun List ,and a 1 out 3 games avg, you will be really scary with Master of Ambush. It really is a balanced list and I am not surprised it gave a Tau fits. 1st or second turn bad shooting will let it rip through the biggest threats to the list and mop up the rest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CKO wrote: Besides the tl devourers name another range weapon that makes our enemies jealous?
Strat_N8 wrote: 1. Bioplasmic Cannon (no Gets Hot)
2. Thorax Weapons, specifically Shreddershard Beetles and Electroshock Grubs.
3. Impaler Cannons
The bioplasmic cannon and impaler cannons are bs 3 meaning they hit on 4's spending 160 plus points for 3 str 8 hits, 3 str 7 ap 2 hits, or a short ranged str 7 ap 2 blast template is not something to be jealous of nor is it point effienct. I did forget the thorax weapons which are good.
Your confusing the Exocrine and the Carnifex. Exocrine is the cannon with a 24" range at BS4 (most of the time) with either large blast or 6 shots. On the Impaler Cannon only 2 other guns I can think of are close, SMS and Purifiers with Psycannons.
Spoletta wrote: To be fair 7E is much more supportive of assault armies than 6E was. .
Really? How so?
The only thing I can think of is the change to pinning, gtg and overwatch. That is definitely helpful to us, but I don't know that it counterbalances the loss of assaulting after swooping, etc.
Spoletta wrote: To be fair 7E is much more supportive of assault armies than 6E was. .
Really? How so?
The only thing I can think of is the change to pinning, gtg and overwatch. That is definitely helpful to us, but I don't know that it counterbalances the loss of assaulting after swooping, etc.
Move through cover units assault through terrain with no movement penalty.
Voidwraith wrote: Your confusing the Exocrine and the Carnifex. Exocrine is the cannon with a 24" range at BS4 (most of the time) with either large blast or 6 shots. On the Impaler Cannon only 2 other guns I can think of are close, SMS and Purifiers with Psycannons.
You cant move if you want the bs4, even if you do it means 4 hits instead of 3 on average. The Impaler cannons ignore cover but like I said 3 hits at 165 is expensive, better to just go with the dakkafex.
Thank you JY2 for making a list that can maximize the potential of the dimachaeron with your skill, your battle report will put to sleep this myth about cc on this thread.
Your 3rd turn is going to be hell for whoever you play against despite them knowing your list. You should have great board control, if you dont see a death blow on turn 3 you can simply move to the middle of the field and dare your opponent to get closer. To many tl-devourers on the board but the threat of the dimachaeron is going to be the nail in the coffin. With the right psychic powers your list will be hard to beat. On a side note is this list legal at the BAO, how can you get that 3rd Flyrant in there without a formation?
Actually, like I mentioned above, the BAO does not allow double-CAD builds, but it does allow for an army to self-ally with itself. Thus, my allies will be the flyrant + 1 unit of rippers.
BTW, I am not actually going to run this list at the BAO, just testing it against some of the BAO tournament lists.
Despite my constant criticism of our shooting at actually like it alot but its true potential is unlocked when you have that cc threat nearby. Its like they protect each other once you get in the right position I tried my best to convey that but hopefully your battle report will display it.
Eldercaveman wrote: Does it explicitly say move through cover stops the penalties from changing through terrain?
Not the penalties, just the -2 to the roll. So, they're still Initiative 1 but our models are no longer slowed (distance wise) by assaulting through terrain, another buff to our assault units in 7th edition.
Eldercaveman wrote: Does it explicitly say move through cover stops the penalties from changing through terrain?
You don't have the -2 charge penalty, but you do strike at I1 unless you have grenades.
jifel wrote:
Eldercaveman wrote: Does it explicitly say move through cover stops the penalties from changing through terrain?
Not the penalties, just the -2 to the roll. So, they're still Initiative 1 but our models are no longer slowed (distance wise) by assaulting through terrain, another buff to our assault units in 7th edition.
Where does it say this? Sorry I'm on holiday and don't have my book with me.
Spoletta wrote: To be fair 7E is much more supportive of assault armies than 6E was. .
Really? How so?
The only thing I can think of is the change to pinning, gtg and overwatch. That is definitely helpful to us, but I don't know that it counterbalances the loss of assaulting after swooping, etc.
Move through cover units assault through terrain with no movement penalty.
No, it doesn't...
What's the pinning/gtg buffs that make us better sorry?
What's the pinning/gtg buffs that make us better sorry?
If a unit has gone to ground, it doesn't get to fire overwatch (huge). Also, if a unit has gone to ground, it hasn't set itself to defend against a charge, and thus, units charging through difficult or dangerous terrain to assault a unit that has gone to ground do not suffer any initiative penalties, even if the unit is in difficult terrain. (or something like that....pg 38) (even more huge)
All of this makes genestealers with Broodlords much more interesting...
Also...Broodlords get dominion now (all of there power(s) come from one tree). I didn't even consider it, but when reading the Tyranid FAQ on Blacklibrary's website, it says:
"Add the following sentence to the end of Dominion's Rule:
'If the psyker does not have the synapse creature special rule, it gains it for the duration of this power and has a synapse range of 6"'
When looking through the book, the only psyker that doesn't have the synapse rule is the Broodlord. Why would they write that FAQ unless...hrumph....sneaky devils. It's not a game breaker, but considering they can be infiltrated pretty much anywhere (and CC units are best when fearless), it's a decent free power to have access to.
Oh yeah the loss of overwatch, if a unit is pinned. Hardly what I'd call a significant buff to assault in 7th. The rest was already the same as it is now. And barrage losing pinning hurts as well.
Spoletta wrote: To be fair 7E is much more supportive of assault armies than 6E was. .
Really? How so?
The only thing I can think of is the change to pinning, gtg and overwatch. That is definitely helpful to us, but I don't know that it counterbalances the loss of assaulting after swooping, etc.
Move through cover units assault through terrain with no movement penalty.
No, it doesn't...
What's the pinning/gtg buffs that make us better sorry?
1. Page 168, units with Move Through cover are not slowed by assaulting through terrain. They do not recieve the -2 penalty to their assault move, but are still Initiative 1.
2. Pinned units (Voluntarily or Forced) may not perform overwatch. Since we have a lot of pinning units, this is good!
3. Moreover, if a unit is pinned or already locked in assault previously, then another unit charging it doesn't receive the Init 1 penalty if charging through terrain.
3. Moreover, if a unit is pinned or already locked in assault previously, then another unit charging it doesn't receive the Init 1 penalty if charging through terrain.
That is why I like the little guys so much, if they are in synaspe range than you tie them up than charge with your big guy to do the damage.
Thank you JY2 for making a list that can maximize the potential of the dimachaeron with your skill, your battle report will put to sleep this myth about cc on this thread.
What myth? Or are you still pretending people are saying CC is impossible?
Thank you JY2 for making a list that can maximize the potential of the dimachaeron with your skill, your battle report will put to sleep this myth about cc on this thread.
What myth? Or are you still pretending people are saying CC is impossible?
All he's saying is that people tend to play more shooty lists than CC-oriented lists, and he believes that a CC-oriented list is still feasible. This has been hashed over many times and you know this. I think it's fair to say that many people were/are attracted to Nids because they can hack, slash, and otherwise dismember their way to victory, even if that is not the MO of an army that will win a GT (if Tyranids even are still able to do this). To pretend that an all assault army can be a top-tier competitive list is folly, but so too is pretending that including some dedicated assault units in your army will be an insurmountable handicap in friendly games.
My FLGS hosted a tournament last week where a Daemons army that was nearly mono-khorne took third place. Sure, it's not the most competitive meta, but by definition, most places are not the most competitive meta. I do believe that a list with a Dimey or two (indeed, I think they probably run better in pairs) can still win games at a very reasonable clip. Many people have no desire to win a GT, or even to get close. I think a lot of us play with units that net-think would call "sub-optimal" at best and do just fine. It's why you play the game - to have an awesome time and field super-cool models while doing it.
Once I get the models, I fully intend to try out this 1750, or some variant of it:
Thank you JY2 for making a list that can maximize the potential of the dimachaeron with your skill, your battle report will put to sleep this myth about cc on this thread.
What myth? Or are you still pretending people are saying CC is impossible?
All he's saying is that people tend to play more shooty lists than CC-oriented lists, and he believes that a CC-oriented list is still feasible. This has been hashed over many times and you know this. I think it's fair to say that many people were/are attracted to Nids because they can hack, slash, and otherwise dismember their way to victory, even if that is not the MO of an army that will win a GT (if Tyranids even are still able to do this). To pretend that an all assault army can be a top-tier competitive list is folly, but so too is pretending that including some dedicated assault units in your army will be an insurmountable handicap in friendly games.
Thank you JY2 for making a list that can maximize the potential of the dimachaeron with your skill, your battle report will put to sleep this myth about cc on this thread.
What myth? Or are you still pretending people are saying CC is impossible?
All he's saying is that people tend to play more shooty lists than CC-oriented lists, and he believes that a CC-oriented list is still feasible. This has been hashed over many times and you know this. I think it's fair to say that many people were/are attracted to Nids because they can hack, slash, and otherwise dismember their way to victory, even if that is not the MO of an army that will win a GT (if Tyranids even are still able to do this). To pretend that an all assault army can be a top-tier competitive list is folly, but so too is pretending that including some dedicated assault units in your army will be an insurmountable handicap in friendly games.
And no one is saying the underlined. Seriously. Go back and quote the post saying so if you disagree.
The issue is that while the Dime is strong in CC, it's slow and its area of threat is much smaller than similarly priced models.
I recognize that. CKO was comparing the Dime to a Dakkafex which has a significantly larger threat range and acting confused as to why one is praised and the other not.
Once I get the models, I fully intend to try out this 1750, or some variant of it:
I listed something similar earlier, but I hate Mawlocs.
On a completely unrelated note, was I the only one that missed that the Malanthrope has SYNAPSE????? DEAR JESUS THAT'S AMAZING.
Super nasty. By the way does shooting through units still require the screening unit to be 25% as tall as the thing behind it? Having 3+ cover for all of the MCs would be pretty sweet. In any case, what do you guys think is the best way to screen the MCs to try and give them better than a 5+ shrouded save while running up the table? With the exception of the FMC who can jink for a glorious 2+ of course, regardless of whether they're swooping or gliding.
And rigeld, I overstated the section that you underlined because this is effectively what net-think implies - that a unit that isn't top-tier isn't worth owning, let alone fielding. I think it's important to focus on the WAY to field a unit, if one was so inclined, rather than whether or not to field them. Unless it's the pyrovore of course
What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?
I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)
Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.
av13 and 14 is what they're there for. we just have no reliable answer for it in the codex.
also, you dont' take egrubs on one flyrant, you take it on all of them. 3 dakka flyrants with egrubs and a crone for VS/tentaclids (along with two HVC harpies if you're using skyblight) is at least a functional solution.
Yes, my 1850 list that I posted a few pages ago uses 2 squads of them for the reasons listed above, I have a knack for noticing and getting the best out of each unit. By popular belief the unit is not considered good because it needs to be in cc but as you have notice by your own personal experience the unit is very good.
What I have noticed, is that you have a 'knack' for patting yourself on the back and assuming you are the smartest person around.
Using TG on their own is *old news*, giving them CClaws is *old news*. It has been discussed...repeatedly...
2xTyrant Guard - Crushing Claws/Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands Comes in at 150pts, The exact same as a CC fex with CCLaws and AG. The comparison, is actually almost exact. T6 4W 3+ save, same movement, fleet.... TG have better WS and the Fex has much higher S. The biggest problem is with IB, the fex will charge the nearest enemy, while the TG will kill each other with AP2 weapons.
Oh, and they are both really slow...
To claim that CCTG are "very good" is the same as claiming CC fexes are "very good"....
For the same points, you can get CC warriors that are also very comparable..... Worse save, more wounds, lower S, more attacks. etc. Still really slow.
Or you can go for speed, and grab shrikes......
IOW, this has been a known issue, and the problem keeps coming down to units taking too long to get into CC, and not resilient enough for the trip.
omerakk wrote: What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?
I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)
Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.
Gigasnail has it right, it's for the AV 13 and 14. I also find it very helpful for Wave Serpents and their highly annoying cover saves, and for any open topped vehicle to hit guys inside. Another perk is being able to potentially hit multiple vehicles with it, which is always great.
All he's saying is that people tend to play more shooty lists than CC-oriented lists, and he believes that a CC-oriented list is still feasible. This has been hashed over many times and you know this. I think it's fair to say that many people were/are attracted to Nids because they can hack, slash, and otherwise dismember their way to victory, even if that is not the MO of an army that will win a GT (if Tyranids even are still able to do this). To pretend that an all assault army can be a top-tier competitive list is folly, but so too is pretending that including some dedicated assault units in your army will be an insurmountable handicap in friendly games.
I don't think anyone is debating against this.
It seems pretty self evident that if your opponents are playing sub-optimal lists, that our sub-optimal units will do better.
That doesn't make out stuff 'better', it makes the competition 'worse'...
My FLGS hosted a tournament last week where a Daemons army that was nearly mono-khorne took third place. Sure, it's not the most competitive meta, but by definition, most places are not the most competitive meta. I do believe that a list with a Dimey or two (indeed, I think they probably run better in pairs) can still win games at a very reasonable clip. Many people have no desire to win a GT, or even to get close. I think a lot of us play with units that net-think would call "sub-optimal" at best and do just fine. It's why you play the game - to have an awesome time and field super-cool models while doing it.
Of course... when playing in a small tourney, or in my basement... competition is different, and all sorts of things might work....
rigeld2 wrote: The issue is that while the Dime is strong in CC, it's slow and its area of threat is much smaller than similarly priced models.
I recognize that. CKO was comparing the Dime to a Dakkafex which has a significantly larger threat range and acting confused as to why one is praised and the other not.
I never once use the word threat range, I asked what is the difference between shooting down a dakkafex and shooting down a close combat monster such as the dime? Just because it has a larger threat range doesnt increase its survivability, and I used the dakkafex as an example.
coredump wrote: What I have noticed, is that you have a 'knack' for patting yourself on the back and assuming you are the smartest person around.
I dont know why you feel this way but ok.
coredump wrote: IOW, this has been a known issue, and the problem keeps coming down to units taking too long to get into CC, and not resilient enough for the trip.
At the end of the day this is what it boils down to and if you cant get into cc and dont think its viable just say it but dont say I feel that I am smarter than other people just because I can get into cc pretty quickly.
At the end of the day this is what it boils down to and if you cant get into cc and dont think its viable just say it but dont say I feel that I am smarter than other people just because I can get into cc pretty quickly.
Well.. at least you *think* you can.... since you have never actually played a single game with Nids yet....
omerakk wrote: What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?
I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)
Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.
Gigasnail has it right, it's for the AV 13 and 14. I also find it very helpful for Wave Serpents and their highly annoying cover saves, and for any open topped vehicle to hit guys inside. Another perk is being able to potentially hit multiple vehicles with it, which is always great.
Again, are any of these situations actually worth it?
Against a wave serpent, you have to get extremely close to fire a single (most likely glancing) hit that gets to ignore its jink. At the distance, you probably could have been firing 12 twin linked devourer shots into its rear armor. Even with the jink saves, you should be doing more damage than the grubs.
Hitting guys inside an open topped vehicle? Doing minimal damage to troops inside vs just plowing the devourer shots into the vehicle and destroying it? I guess there are some situations where the template would still be ideal, but it still seems very inefficient.
For what gigasnail suggested, it would take 4 units at 800+ points to actually finish off a land raider; I can't call that a functional answer at all. That's giving up 36 shots (not even counting the crone) to hit 1 target. Imagine if you had just used all that to hit the rest of your opponents army instead? Surely the best answer here is to just ignore the land raider and destroy the rest of the army, then win the scoring contest at the end with superior numbers.
omerakk wrote: What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?
I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)
Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.
Gigasnail has it right, it's for the AV 13 and 14. I also find it very helpful for Wave Serpents and their highly annoying cover saves, and for any open topped vehicle to hit guys inside. Another perk is being able to potentially hit multiple vehicles with it, which is always great.
Again, are any of these situations actually worth it?
Against a wave serpent, you have to get extremely close to fire a single (most likely glancing) hit that gets to ignore its jink. At the distance, you probably could have been firing 12 twin linked devourer shots into its rear armor. Even with the jink saves, you should be doing more damage than the grubs.
Hitting guys inside an open topped vehicle? Doing minimal damage to troops inside vs just plowing the devourer shots into the vehicle and destroying it? I guess there are some situations where the template would still be ideal, but it still seems very inefficient.
For what gigasnail suggested, it would take 4 units at 800+ points to actually finish off a land raider; I can't call that a functional answer at all. That's giving up 36 shots (not even counting the crone) to hit 1 target. Imagine if you had just used all that to hit the rest of your opponents army instead? Surely the best answer here is to just ignore the land raider and destroy the rest of the army, then win the scoring contest at the end with superior numbers.
1. Yes, yes they are worth it. If you take a Land Raider down to one hull point left, you can now easily kill it with an MC in close combat. If you take it down by two hull points, you can do the same thing next turn. Or, you can shoot Crones at it to remove more Hull points. Against a Leman Russ squadron, you usually have a turn where you're in front before you can get behind, might as well take off two or three hull points!
2. A good Eldar player will never give you a shot at their rear armor, ever. The Serpents will be backed all the way up, and you just have to shoot them. The short range of the Grubs is a non issue due to our speed, but a single Devourer + EG takes off an average of about .6 more hull points a turn than two devourers.
3. Against a truck or Raider/Venom, the Grubs take a hull point, kill a few guys inside and then the Devourers can finish it off. It's not something you buy just for that, but it is useful.
4. Land raiders usually aren't a high priority target, I agree. You can kill the rest of the army first. But what about a unit of three Leman Russ Punishers with Pask? That needs to die ASAP, and all your haywire needs to go right there. Also, being able to reliably one shot a Land raider a turn isn't exactly a bad thing...
I've played quite a few games of 7th edition in the last month, and I've brought two EG flyrants to every one of them. They have been worth it in every single game so far. I've killed Bastions, Imperial Knights, a Venom and the whole unit inside, I've killed Pask about 4 times, I've taken out guardsmen in cover, I've killed Wave Serpents, and Drop Pods, Reaver jetbikes with 2+ cover, etc. There has been exactly one game so far that I have not used them, against a Tau list that was made up only of infantry units. For 10 points each they are a complete steal.
Your logic is actually very solid.But it's like what 10pts for a near guaranteed HP when you use it. It's definitely a must have on Tfex and Tgon where you sacrifice no firepower. On flyrants, it depends on your meta. I often see tank clusters to hide side armor. Even though they obviously won't deploy like that, it's worth the 20 pts to deny this and open up shots on side armor. It's by no means a must have, but considering how much we suck at dealing with tanks iun general, the thicker the harder, well as the saying goes, I'd rather have eGrubs and not need it than the games where you need it and don't have it.
I pack them, but that being said I don't use them by wasting 4 flyrant shooting phases on a landraider. You are absolutely right. However, when you play every game imagine you had eGrubs and see if they would have been a worthy pick. I enjoy the utility for 20 pts. However, it is 20 pts that I would cut pretty quickly if it's necessary.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That was to omerakk
They amazing against DE, being spammed, open-top, skimmers, that often end up clumped to abuse range. EGrubs by itself can be game changing here and only 10 pt each
Spoletta wrote: To be fair 7E is much more supportive of assault armies than 6E was. .
Really? How so?
The only thing I can think of is the change to pinning, gtg and overwatch. That is definitely helpful to us, but I don't know that it counterbalances the loss of assaulting after swooping, etc.
Move through cover units assault through terrain with no movement penalty.
No, it doesn't...
What's the pinning/gtg buffs that make us better sorry?
1. Page 168, units with Move Through cover are not slowed by assaulting through terrain. They do not recieve the -2 penalty to their assault move, but are still Initiative 1.
2. Pinned units (Voluntarily or Forced) may not perform overwatch. Since we have a lot of pinning units, this is good!
First i didn't say: "7E favors assaulty nids" i said "7E favors assault more than 6E". Also add to that list of buffs:
1) Challenges fixed. No longer will your flyrant/prime/deathleaper/nob/demon/whatever get disabled by a sergeant.
2) New cover rules, if one enemy model sees your first model in cover then all the firing unit sees that model in cover. This is a huge nerf to gunlines formed by multiple models like FW, crysis, TM etc... With just a little bit of positioning (easier without the movement penalty on charge) you have guaranted cover save against overwatch.
3) Maelstrom missions, the dead of gunlines.
4) Maestrom missions with objectives placed before choosing the side, the home of assaut armies.
omerakk wrote: What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?
I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)
Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.
Gigasnail has it right, it's for the AV 13 and 14. I also find it very helpful for Wave Serpents and their highly annoying cover saves, and for any open topped vehicle to hit guys inside. Another perk is being able to potentially hit multiple vehicles with it, which is always great.
This is more difficult now, because when targeting vehicles you must place as much as the template over the vehicle as possible.
omerakk wrote: What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?
I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)
Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.
Gigasnail has it right, it's for the AV 13 and 14. I also find it very helpful for Wave Serpents and their highly annoying cover saves, and for any open topped vehicle to hit guys inside. Another perk is being able to potentially hit multiple vehicles with it, which is always great.
This is more difficult now, because when targeting vehicles you must place as much as the template over the vehicle as possible.
Not really when looking at flyrants due to their movement range. Easy to pop off to one side to strafe the 3 wave serpents sat in a row ... With my tervigon I just take what comes and often don't get to shoot it at all.
rigeld2 wrote: The issue is that while the Dime is strong in CC, it's slow and its area of threat is much smaller than similarly priced models.
I recognize that. CKO was comparing the Dime to a Dakkafex which has a significantly larger threat range and acting confused as to why one is praised and the other not.
I never once use the word threat range, I asked what is the difference between shooting down a dakkafex and shooting down a close combat monster such as the dime? Just because it has a larger threat range doesnt increase its survivability, and I used the dakkafex as an example.
It doesn't increase survivability, it increases effectiveness while on the table.
Dakkafex shoots things turn 1 and 2, dies opponent turn 2.
Dime runs and runs turn 1 and 2, dies opponent turn 2.
Which one was a better investment in points? At this point, saying "The Dime of course!" is willfully deluding yourself.
As far as CC buffs, challenge wounds spilling over is actually really bad for us.
You never, ever want to win combat on your turn - you always want to win on their turn. Challenging and pasting a Sargent was extremely useful.
For the role it fills...well, is it necessary? Sure, it can murder small and medium squads with ease. Thing is, a Trygon can do just the same, costs less points, has a ranged attack and can deep strike.
Oh, but it gets so many attacks to wreck vehicles with massed glancing! Uh huh. Twin Devourer Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes do just the same at range. The Carnifexes then have the advantage if they do get an assault of putting down multiple S9 hits at I10.
Oh, but it can ID infantry...so SM captains etc....
Yeah, that's great. Anything with a bonesword does it...and we can get a lot of boneswords elsewhere for less.
Thing is...I don't like Dime. I really don't.
Anything he can do...other things in other slots can do it better and for less points or with far more efficiency. I mean, if you really, really want a fast moving ID causing unit? Well, a unit of 5 Shrikes with flesh hooks and toxin sacs, 2 twin boneswords and 3 LAW/Boneswords costs less points than a Dime. They move faster, can Deep Strike, have a ranged attack in the flesh hooks and put out far more potential ID causing attacks. A flyrant with LW/BS or if you pour some points the Reaper...sure, it costs more. But it comes with a far, FAR greater degree of mobility, Synapse and 2 psychic powers to boot.
I mean, I look at Dime...and try to figure out what he has that's special.
Let's start with his movement.
He has Leaper - so, he moves 6 and ignores cover if he chooses to do so in his movement phase. Okaaaay.
Every Monstrous Creature has MTC as standard - which means all Dime gets is what, 2 inches more over them in terms of movement? But wait, that's just assuming they're on foot only. It really only applies to Footrants, Carnifexes and Haruspexes who would be trying to fill the same role.
Other things competing for Dime's role...well, they have alternative movement. Flyrants naturally have wings. VASTLY superior mobility right there. Sure, there's the awkward turn of coming to land...no, wait. You can still move as jump infantry so you are still faster than Dime even when not Swooping. Trygons can Deep Strike. In fact, so can Mawlocs. These are things that would fill a similar role but clearly are cheaper and get there faster or more efficiently.
WS 8 is horrendously redundant. Hitting on 3+s can be acheived with WS 5 and since the average WS of troops in this game is 4...well, WS 8 does nothing to reduce the damage coming back to you in assault unless you combo it with a successful paroxysm. So, looking at his big assault gribbly competitors....
His WS only really seems to trump Carnifexes and Haruspexes. Okay.... Tyrants are WS 8, Trygons are WS 5. If anything WS 8 is wasted points as he is now reliant on you having Paroxysm to maximise his potential and reduce damage back on him. So, ew. That's already forcing me to take things to augment Dime when no one else really needs it that is competing with him.
Strength and Toughness are Tyranid standards for the most part - he falls down against Carnifexes here. Sure, he trumps the Carnifex on WS but the fexes trump him hard on strength. That 4+ ID Dime brings seems a bit redundant against T4 multiwound units when Carnifexes do it by virtue of Strength alone. Dime will shine more against T6+ to be honest - T5 can still be squished by Crusher fexes - who then get armourbane on top. But that's another matter.
Wounds. Yes. 6 wounds. Mighty. Impressive. Fancy. Oh yes. Wait, Trygons have those. Okay....plus, as terrible as it sounds These 6 wounds can be stripped away as easily as anyone else's. Where Dime falls down is the fact that other TMCs have the option to get Regeneration, he does not. Sure, he gets a 4+ FNP - that he has to get into assault and kill someone with his I1 ability that is reliant on a condition to trigger in order to benefit from.
For everything else there's Catalyst too.
It seems so far that Dime has a lot of redundancy in his kit. A lot of it.
His Initiative...is a plus point. In the open he is faster than anything we have that lacks a Lash whip or isn't a Lictor/Genestealer. However ....he has no access to Spine Banks or Flesh Hooks, so will be going at I1 if assaulting anything in cover. And believe you me, anything he gets to will probably be in cover. Admittedly his situation is not unique - Flyrants, Trygons, Haruspexes all suffer the same problem of assaulting things in cover. Carnifexes...seem to trump Dime here. Again.
I can't go on.
Dime seems like a lot of poorly thought out redundancy and special weapon rules on a single model.
Now, perhaps in an army designed to cater to Dime? Which probably is Hope For MoA and then it's GG with Dime. Otherwise, probably not.
He also...doesn't seem to mesh well with our Psychic Powers. Sure, we can Catalyst him to help him survive...buuut we can also Catalyst other targets as well and boost their survivability just the same.
Onslaught is useless on him - he gives no return for it. No shooting equals no value for Onslaught - even the Trygon gives something for Onslaught but naturally Dakkafexes and Flyrants are king here for Onslaught.
Paroxysm...seems almost mandatory for Dimes to shine. But Paroxysm also makes Flyrants, Trygons and even humble Carnifexes shine. Marines stop laughting when Carnifexes suddenly start hitting them on a 3+ because you dropped their WS by 2. Gaunt tarpits laugh the same way in fact.
I'm trying to think, WS wise what does Dime...actually need that WS 8 to threaten? Avatars, Phoenix Lords, Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes? Or other Tyranids.
But against other Tyranids? Hahahahaha. No Dime. A flyrant will circle you all day, peppering you with devourer shots til you fall over. You will flail your mighty arms and do nothing. And if someone else was running melee 'nids against a Dime?
I'm not be surprised to see a LW/BS or Reaper Flyrant rip Dime into tiny little pieces.
Cause, you see, he also lacks Fearless. Sure, he's Ld 10.
But MCs cause FEAR. He faiils one LD test against one fear causing unit outside of Synapse range and he's a WS 1 piece of junk. It's rare....
But my god, it'll happen against Daemons, CSM and Tyranids in particular. And at WS 1 he's...well, going to drop fast against them.
I want to like Dime. The model...it is ok. From different angles. Not a huge fan of the random rocks he must stand on...but eh.
Really good to see someone do an in depth analysis on it there DSS. Unbiased and well reasoned. I think you probably should have mentioned that he pays about half again the points of a Mawloc, for the same defensive stats, so his durability is actually pretty terrible. Also, MoA is far from an instawin, you still face the exact same problem Trygons use to have, the whole "3 or nothing" - take one, it arrives, sits there, your opponent has a full shooting phase with his entire army in range of it. My hurt that this puts on your fielded army size by throwing away such ineffecient wounds (most expensive base price for T6 wounds in the army next to Swarmlord), you need to see a serious return for your points to make it worthwhile.
Compare it to using MoA with the same amount of points in Dakkafex, dumping JUST UNDER A HUNDRED TL S6 shots in the amount of time it takes 3 Dimacs to make it to assault and get off a round of attacks. Far less reliably as well, as Dakkafexes do half those shots before your opponent even gets a chance to shoot. And guess what, you still have an MoA slot open. It's not even a contest. Plus for the games you don't get MoA... It's not just a bunch of wasted points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Don't get me wrong Dimas would be far better with Infiltrate and definitely playable, however they wouldn't be OP at all, just balanced. Assaulty T6 no frags leaves many many ways to get dealt with, but at least you could rely on making the distance to combat.
So, i heard that apart from the Malan, the fexes and the Dima all the other FW nids kept theyr rules. Is it possible? I mean look at the old meiotic spore rules, they make no sense in 7E.
I'm asking cause they are quite good with a lictor/deathleaper homing them in. They blow up the same turn they DS.
omerakk wrote: What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?
I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)
Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.
Well...you have to remember that that single shot is a Template, and you get to take two "shots" I habitually Vector strike, and toss a Template, you can also use the Electro-bugs, and still shoot one dose of Brain Leeches.... It only costs 10 points, I've never felt like I could have gotten better value from something else. And it makes getting charged a much scarier concern for the enemy (wall o'death) All in all, a dang good spend.
omerakk wrote: What is everyone's opinions on electroshock grubs?
I know putting them on your tyrant is pretty standard... but is it actually worth it? It seems like just using both devourers would end up doing better in most scenarios except for shooting at AV13 or 14 (assuming you can't find a vulnerable side like vs a land raider)
Even then, it seems like you could have more success firing your devourers at a different target than wasting a turn firing that single haywire shot for that single glance.
Gigasnail has it right, it's for the AV 13 and 14. I also find it very helpful for Wave Serpents and their highly annoying cover saves, and for any open topped vehicle to hit guys inside. Another perk is being able to potentially hit multiple vehicles with it, which is always great.
This is more difficult now, because when targeting vehicles you must place as much as the template over the vehicle as possible.
Not really when looking at flyrants due to their movement range. Easy to pop off to one side to strafe the 3 wave serpents sat in a row ... With my tervigon I just take what comes and often don't get to shoot it at all.
SHUPPET wrote:Harder but not overly so
Just remember to do that you have to target the furthest one away.
That's one option, and the other is landing in such a manner that while covering as much of the unit as possible, the small end of the template being in contact with your base still forces contact with something over the other side. Both ways work, just requires imaginative positioning.
Spoletta wrote: So, i heard that apart from the Malan, the fexes and the Dima all the other FW nids kept theyr rules. Is it possible? I mean look at the old meiotic spore rules, they make no sense in 7E.
Spoletta wrote: So, i heard that apart from the Malan, the fexes and the Dima all the other FW nids kept theyr rules. Is it possible? I mean look at the old meiotic spore rules, they make no sense in 7E.
Spoletta wrote: So, i heard that apart from the Malan, the fexes and the Dima all the other FW nids kept theyr rules. Is it possible? I mean look at the old meiotic spore rules, they make no sense in 7E.
Spoletta wrote: I don't think you can shot at all without a BS stat. Like the problem with 5E broodlord and The Horror.
Edit: Also, can't go in reserves but must enter by deepstrike? What if i mishap back into reserves?
Iirc, you just place the blast marker and check range. As for can't enter reserves, hiwpi would be to just reroll. Unless you're playing with some anally-retentive people it shouldn't be too hard to agree on something.
I can't see myself running the Dimachaeron (not a fan of the model really) or the Stone Crushers, but DAMN the Malanthrope got sexier! I might have to rustle one of those up.
I usually run a brood of two Venomthropes (redunancy so one lucky shot doesn't give up first blood) in my lists, but I can DEFINITELY see a Malanthrope taking up residency in that slot instead!!
Spoletta wrote: I don't think you can shot at all without a BS stat. Like the problem with 5E broodlord and The Horror.
Edit: Also, can't go in reserves but must enter by deepstrike? What if i mishap back into reserves?
Does not say they can't go in reserves. Just that they may only be held in reserve in games that hold everyone in reserve. I read it as they must all deploy before first game turn but after deployment. If you mishap in to reserve, they are not held bu forced in to ongoing reserve so deploy at the start of your next turn.
1) Challenges fixed. No longer will your flyrant/prime/deathleaper/nob/demon/whatever get disabled by a sergeant.
2) New cover rules, if one enemy model sees your first model in cover then all the firing unit sees that model in cover. This is a huge nerf to gunlines formed by multiple models like FW, crysis, TM etc... With just a little bit of positioning (easier without the movement penalty on charge) you have guaranted cover save against overwatch.
3) Maelstrom missions, the dead of gunlines.
4) Maestrom missions with objectives placed before choosing the side, the home of assaut armies.
1) Slight overall improvement
2) Same as last edition
3) Does not make assault any 'better'
4) run into the middle, get shot by shooty armies.
They also nerfed Smash Attack, and FMC assaulting, and greatly reduced area terrain. The new charge rules mean harder to charge through cover, and can even fail a 1" charge.
It may be possible that if you add everything up, things may have gotten somewhat better, but thats like saying you are 'better off' jumping out a window on the 30th floor instead of the 32nd floor. Better... but does it really matter at that point?
rollawaythestone wrote: Armywide Move Through Cover means we never get slowed charging through difficult terrain.
However, a damn near army wide lack of assault grenades (seriously - Lictors, Warriors, Shrikes and Carnifexes only) means we never strike before I1 after charging through said terrain.
For the role it fills...well, is it necessary? Sure, it can murder small and medium squads with ease. Thing is, a Trygon can do just the same, costs less points, has a ranged attack and can deep strike.
If you think the Trygon is *anywhere near* 'just the same' as the Dima, you are looking at the wrong rules. Almost twice as many attacks, higher S, generate FnP, able to cause ID...etc....etc.... The Trygon is a joke. The Dima is a killing machine. It may have 'delivery' issues, but that is a completely separate issue.
Oh, but it gets so many attacks to wreck vehicles with massed glancing! Uh huh. Twin Devourer Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes do just the same at range. The Carnifexes then have the advantage if they do get an assault of putting down multiple S9 hits at I10.
Dealing with vehicles is a secondary benefit for he Dima, not the primary. TLDev don't do very well past AV11... Dima does. Dima also ignores cover saves, including jink. HoW at S9 is very cool, but 9 attacks at S8 isn't bad either. I can build a better AT fex, but this is the *secondary* function for the Dima
Oh, but it can ID infantry...so SM captains etc....
Yeah, that's great. Anything with a bonesword does it...and we can get a lot of boneswords elsewhere for less.
Haha...come on... yes, a bonesword can, on a S4 model (S5 if you get AG), and they require rolling a 6 to wound.
Sure, you can put it on a HT, but there goes your 'cheaper' assertion.
Lets take up your challenge. 4 warriors, LW/BS, AG 220pts (so not cheaper, but lets continue...)
You mentioned a chapter master:
Warriors charge: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 1.666 ID wounds.
Dimathingy charge: 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 ID wounds. *THEN* it gets another ID attack at the end of the turn.
So... dima is 200 pts for 6 ID wounds, or 220pts for warriors getting 1.667 ID wounds.... So the Dima is *4 times* more efficient in causing ID wounds...
This is what I mean about your bias making a mockery of your 'review'
I mean, if you really, really want a fast moving ID causing unit? Well, a unit of 5 Shrikes with flesh hooks and toxin sacs, 2 twin boneswords and 3 LAW/Boneswords costs less points than a Dime.
Um.... what codex are you using? That Shrike unit is 275 pts..... (even 4 would be more than the Dima, try doing the math with 3.5 shrikes)
They move faster, can Deep Strike, have a ranged attack in the flesh hooks and put out far more potential ID causing attacks.
Hahahaha... clever use of the word 'potential' there.... Many of those attacks come at I4, they are all at S4, and they require a 6 to ID in any case. The Dima is S8, so all the attacks on the charge can ID T4, otherwise, they only need a 4+ to ID. Dima rolls on 3+ on many targets causing the warriors to roll 4+.
Futher, the shrikes have no ability to gain FnP, have a 5+ save, and krak missiles will kill the shrikes faster than the Dima.
Yes, the shrikes have much more mobiity, and that is important. But that is, again, an issue you are not yet addressing. You keep reaching conclusions that the facts to not support.
A flyrant with LW/BS or if you pour some points the Reaper...sure, it costs more. But it comes with a far, FAR greater degree of mobility, Synapse and 2 psychic powers to boot.
You said you can get "more for less"... That HT will get about *1/9* the number of ID attacks on T4, and about 1/6 the number on T5+. *AND* it costs a about 25% *more*. So you are actually getting "a lot less, for more"
Do you have *any* comparison that actually supports this "more for less" assertion?? Seriously, you do realize that Boneswords only ID on a wound roll of 6... right?
Let's start with his movement
(snip)
Ok, so maybe movement's not good.
.
CONGRATULATIONS.... you have finally reached an actual problem with the Dima.... Yes, its movement *is* a problem. It is too dang slow... And Leaper is a joke.
WS 8 is horrendously redundant. Hitting on 3+s can be acheived with WS 5[ and since the average WS of troops in this game is 4...well, WS 8 does nothing to reduce the damage coming back to you in assault
Are you serious?? Do you really never fight anything besides Tac Marines? Even the Chapter master you mentioned has WS6. WS8 reduces a lot of attacks compared to WS5, like all of those models with WS5/6/7... This is really getting sad....
. That 4+ ID Dime brings seems a bit redundant against T4 multiwound units when Carnifexes do it by virtue of Strength alone.
SO DOES DIMA!!!! Believe it or not, S8 will ID T4 just as well as T4. *and* Dima gets more than double the attacks, *and* will hit more often.
Again, math is not your friend. Even in subsequent rounds, Dima will get *more* ID wounds needing a 4+, than the fex will get. The Dima will get about *3 times* the number of attacks, and hit more often. That 4+ just isn't that big of a deal at that point....
And again, (and again, and again) you skip over little things like generating a 4+ FnP....
However ....he has no access to Spine Banks or Flesh Hooks, so will be going at I1 if assaulting anything in cover.
Hey, congrats... you found the second problem for Dima....
Cause, you see, he also lacks Fearless. Sure, he's Ld 10.
But MCs cause FEAR. He faiils one LD test against one fear causing unit outside of Synapse range and he's a WS 1 piece of junk. It's rare....
Hahaha... man you are getting desparate.
Yes *IF* Dima is out of synapse, *AND* he is assaulted by a model with Fear, *and* he fails a Ld10 check (1 in 12), then yes, that will be a bad *single* round.... OTOH, if those fexes you keep promoting are out of synapse, there is about a 1 in 5 chance they stand around attacking each other...
DIma is a CC animal.... there just is no comparison in the book, not really. The main problem is getting into CC, and part of that is the lack of 'grenades'.... but most of your 'analysis' is marred by poor math and really bad assumptions....
SHUPPET wrote: Really good to see someone do an in depth analysis on it there DSS. Unbiased and well reasoned..
BWAHAhahahahaha......... Dude, there are plenty of reasons to dislike Dimathingy.... but if you found this 'unbiased and well reasoned'.... your glasses may need a new prescription....
Dude... I don't like Dimac but it's not because of bias, it's because I've cast an unbiased eye towards it, and my interpretation is as such, after spending a period of time processing and thinking about the unit. I wouldn't lie about or conceal my honest opinion just due to some bias against the sculpt or something lol. Differing opinions will be had, if others wish to lose games using the model they can feel free to, and in a low level meta where people just feed units to it it does a great job of taking advantage of people's stupidity.
However, to me, bias is "hand waving" the lack of assault grenades, the movement speed, the time it takes to threaten something, acting as if it's FnP is at all relevant considering at best, you stand a CHANCE of getting it in time for turn 4 shooting. Remember when you pulled me up for hand waving the guarantee of Old Adversary with Devilgants? Yeah, these things are FAR more relevant, crippling, and likely to occur. This is how I perceive a bias in your posts, be it real or imagined.
The only really accurate points or any time that you went into any real depth was when disregarding comparisons to really/fairly bad models (CC Tyrant, Trygon, CC Shrike squad, etc). Why you didn't go into the same depth for counter arguments or points that you couldn't disprove, shouts bias to me. I didn't say that Darkstar's comparisons were great or that his opinions on other models were on point, I was just saying that it's nice to a well reasoned in depth analysis, unbiased being that he didn't deliberately skimp on any details, and it's the kind of thoughtful intelligent posting that I think we should promote, whether he was wrong or right in his opinion (as it is just that).
The Trygon is a joke. The Dima is a killing machine. It may have 'delivery' issues, but that is a completely separate issue.
Actually it's not. It's very much the most relevant issue to who does the most damage out the two. The Trygon has the same durability for cheaper, makes it to combat often 2 turns earlier, definitely 1, and reliably makes it to threat range every single game, and the turn it hits the battlefield. Considering that you are trading often enough two turns of getting shot, for two EXTRA turns of combat, makes the Trygon a FARRRRR better model than Dimac.
And the Trygon freaking sucks.
The fact that these comparisons can even exist is what classes Dimac in the bottom tier of our units, a direct result of the issues you couldn't deny but decided not to touch on. He has none of the tools needed to apply that damage or even make back his investment on a good day, let alone reliably. It takes very circumstantial game to take advantage of his positives. Yet his lack of move speed and frag grenades can as will be relevant every game against even a mid tier player.
I will emphasise again, that these opinions are not fuelled off bias, against either you or the model (I'd love for this guy to work, and you as a poster seem good at constructing and contributing well reasoned posts even if we do disagree on certain units), this is merely me sharing an opinion. Maybe the outlandish opinion that this 6" fragless 200 pt low durability CC beast is fatally flawed, is indeed a sign prescribed glasses. I reay don't think so though, but hey, it's an opinion, I could somehow be very wrong. Rest assured that it is coming from a genuine place however.
The trygon is exactly the same speed. If you're referring to deep strike, that's still turn 3 assault, same as the Dima.
Yes the Dima is too slow to be comptetitive, especially in a game where mobility is everything, but you are acting like it's a pyrovore.
SHUPPET, do you ever play in GTs? Have any battle reports? I'd honestly like to see how your games play out, you make it sound like every game is against wave serpent spam in hammer and anvil on planet bowling ball for kill points only.
Traceoftoxin wrote: The trygon is exactly the same speed. If you're referring to deep strike, that's still turn 3 assault, same as the Dima.
Yes the Dima is too slow to be comptetitive, especially in a game where mobility is everything, but you are acting like it's a pyrovore.
SHUPPET, do you ever play in GTs? Have any battle reports? I'd honestly like to see how your games play out, you make it sound like every game is against wave serpent spam in hammer and anvil on planet bowling ball for kill points only.
Turn 3 assault, the turn before Dima often. The turn AFTER it arrives, as opposed to 3 turns of doing nothing but a cover save at best, getting wiped off the map in all likelihood for a better wounds to points ratio than most things in the codex (at the very least all the [playable] non-aggressive units like Dima). A. I'm comparing the amount of turns it spends on the board before making it to combat, not which game turn it does it on, B. even game turn wise, the Trygon STILL does it faster. Not to mention more reliably. And with much broader target selection. And with a gun, although it barely merits the mention lol.
What do you mean by acting as if it's a Pyrovore? Doesnt Pyrovore, by virtue of having some range on his weapon, have faster damage projection than Dima, or at least enough to make up for lost ground through terrain? Not seeing how these guys aren't at similar levels of speed.
GTs don't exist where I live. Me not attending them is due to 40k being largely unpopular and unsupported as competitive support, not due to an unwillingness to attend or an incapability to compete. It's really not at all relevant to disproving my statements however. However, for your sake, I play in a meta with both competitive and casual gamers. We use a satisfactory amount of terrain in every game. I see the only sensible thing to do being basing my strategys against the better players, as while Dima can win against the bad ones, ANYTHING can win against the bad ones. Can I ask what exactly I have said (and I do mean exactly, please share using my words) that has given you the impression that I play on planet bowling ball and need to write out a freaking battle report or participate in a GT just to give my statements any merit? Or is this just a peg to avoid arguing the actual statements themselves instead trying to discredit the player?
rollawaythestone wrote: Armywide Move Through Cover means we never get slowed charging through difficult terrain.
However, a damn near army wide lack of assault grenades (seriously - Lictors, Warriors, Shrikes and Carnifexes only) means we never strike before I1 after charging through said terrain.
Unless, of course, the unit we're assaulting is pinned, which we've been given the tools to make happen (aka The Horror psy power).
And before you say it. Yes, we know...fearless units cannot be pinned. Good thing for us that most units in the 40k universe aren't fearless (apart from Chaos Daemons being the obvious fully fearless army).
Also the Living Artillery formation is quite possibly the best pinning available to any army in the game! Pinning is something we can do well, somewhat mitigates our lack of assault grenades.
However, not having frags is still very relevant. Good pinning or not, having to successfully cast/hit+wound and then roll a pin, is nowhere near as reliable as, well, NOT having to see a bunch of successful rolls to pin.
It does come in handy for other situations than assaulting however, so pinning is great. Unfortunately spammed Biovores no longer pin in 7th, which is actually a big loss for pinning support.
Also (just seeing as it's such a hot topic ATM) I think it's worth looking over how well our shooty (best) Pins mesh with the concept of Dimmy. Requiring you dedicate and likely waste an entire unit of shooting as well as at least one successful wound, on a unit that Dimmys role is to solo eat alive. It's better than going last with a 200 pt 6W unit however :/ plus the pin effect itself of forcing snapshots is somewhat wasted against a unit that is almost guaranteed to be either tied up in combat or dead, in the next shooting phase (exceptions being Hit&Run units, all of whom being unlikely recipients of a Dimacs rampage due to their mobility, or CC units capable of actually beating him in combat, who snapshots were likely wasted on anyway since their shooting was LIKELY pretty minimal). All in all, logic tells me that it doesn't seem to add any cost effectiveness to the Dimac, but worth bringing for him regardless.
Shuppet: please reread what I posted. You continually respond to things I did not say or do.
1) I never said your review of DIma was biased, nor that you were lieing. (People will have differing opinion of certain characteristics, but that is different.) DSS was actively trying to change factual reality to suit his assertions, and you somehow found that "unbiased" and "in depth". My statement was about that comment, for if you cannot see the *many* errors including *factually wrong* assertions, it shows you are more concerned with him agreeing with you than anything else.
2) I did not "hand wave" the Dima lack of speed nor grenades. Please read them again. I was very direct labeling them the actual problem, and saying it was "too dang slow". I could not have been more direct.... I never said it wasn't important, nor did I say it was easily overcome. Those are all assumptions you are making. I believe earlier in this thread I even called them its "Achilles heel". I supposed you wanted me to continue to belabor the point.... but I am pretty sure everyone already agrees it is too slow.
3) I do think getting FnP is not just 'a chance'; instead it is all but inevitable; *IF* it can get into assault. (Big 'if' - important 'if'). But again, please read what was actually written by DSS.... he was comparing two models, and their ability *once in combat*... for *that comparison* FnP is a big deal
4)Not sure what 'bias' you are referring to.... I corrected the things he said that were wrong (and showed why they were wrong.) and agreed with the things that were right. You just seem upset that I didn't spend an entire paragraph agreeing with him about what the real problems are. That isn't bias, that is not wasting my time.
If someone wrote a long list of why Dima was great, and talked about how fast it was, and how it is great once in CC. I would explain why the first was wrong, and just agree with the second.
5) *Thats the point* Trygon, Shrike etc *are* bad units. Yet DSS claims they were *better* in CC (and cheaper) and you read that and decided it was unbiased and well reasoned.
6) Wait... are you really telling me it was *bad* to not give counter examples for points I couldn't disprove...?? He said things that were true, and so I *agreed* with him... and you are somehow trying to twist that into a bad thing??? You are somehow calling me "biased" because I disagreed when he was wrong, and agreed when he was right...??? Do you understand what 'biased' means?? You called his entire piece "in depth" "unbiased" and "well reasoned".... even though you didn't agree, and eventhough you *know* much of what he said is just plain wrong. *THAT* is pretty much the definition of bias....
I didn't say that Darkstar's comparisons were great or that his opinions on other models were on point, I was just saying that it's nice to a well reasoned in depth analysis, unbiased being that he didn't deliberately skimp on any details, and it's the kind of thoughtful intelligent posting that I think we should promote, whether he was wrong or right in his opinion (as it is just that).
7) So, he has bad comparisons, and bad opinions... ones he picked just to prove his point. I think you have a very different definition of 'unbiased' and 'well reasoned' than most other people. And yes, he *did* skimp on details... he completely skimped on any details that would disprove his assertions... that is the *definition* of bias....In addition, he provided *lots* of details that were factually, provably, false... which is pretty much the definition of "poorly* reasoned...
The post was superficial and self-serving..... if someone created an equally poor post about how 'great' the Dima is you would easily see through it and blast it as such. The fact that you can't do that here... shows that your bias is severely impacting your judgement.
Actually it's not. It's very much the most relevant issue to who does the most damage out the two. The Trygon has the same durability for cheaper,
8) I agree with you.... but that is *NOT* what DSS was writing about. That was *not* the comparison he was making. Thus that was *not* the comparison I was responding to. The reason I said that the 'delivery problem' was a separate issue, is because the issue DSS was discussing was the actual combat ability of the two models. Please try and read what he actually writes, instead of filtering it through your own opinion of how good/bad Dima is.
a direct result of the issues you couldn't deny but decided not to touch on.
9) Couldn't deny...??? Do you ever actually *read* the posts?? Couldn't deny...?? I *stated* it... *THE DIMA IS TOO DANG SLOW!!!*
Look... thats enough. DSS wrote a bunch of drivel that was factually inaccurate, completely skipped over any and all details that what against his post, and cherry picked comparisons - and still got them wrong.
You found the post "intelligent, well reasoned, unbiased, in depth"
My response factually disproved many of his errors, provided many of the details that he pointedly ignored, and yet still covered and *agreed with* the points that were accurate.
You found my post to be 'hand waving and biased'
Actually you are very much right, I think I jumped to a conclusion or two, and even though we disagree on the model I believe I've made a mistake on interpretation with you again. Must be your writing style or something man because I really misread the vibe. Whatever, but while I no longer think you are being bias I don't think DSS was either, nor do I think his poor choice of comparisons prove anything positive for the Dima, nor do I think that the good comparison (Trygon) should be broken down by seperating their attack power and delivery of it into two different comparisons instead of looking at the package as a whole for a more accurate picture. It's critically important when strategizing to apply the damage, and your total damage output per game is dependant largely on your ability to project it to the necessary positions.
For the role it fills...well, is it necessary? Sure, it can murder small and medium squads with ease. Thing is, a Trygon can do just the same, costs less points, has a ranged attack and can deep strike.
If you think the Trygon is *anywhere near* 'just the same' as the Dima, you are looking at the wrong rules. Almost twice as many attacks, higher S, generate FnP, able to cause ID...etc....etc.... The Trygon is a joke. The Dima is a killing machine. It may have 'delivery' issues, but that is a completely separate issue.
Oh, but it gets so many attacks to wreck vehicles with massed glancing! Uh huh. Twin Devourer Hive Tyrants and Carnifexes do just the same at range. The Carnifexes then have the advantage if they do get an assault of putting down multiple S9 hits at I10.
Dealing with vehicles is a secondary benefit for he Dima, not the primary. TLDev don't do very well past AV11... Dima does. Dima also ignores cover saves, including jink. HoW at S9 is very cool, but 9 attacks at S8 isn't bad either. I can build a better AT fex, but this is the *secondary* function for the Dima
Oh, but it can ID infantry...so SM captains etc....
Yeah, that's great. Anything with a bonesword does it...and we can get a lot of boneswords elsewhere for less.
Haha...come on... yes, a bonesword can, on a S4 model (S5 if you get AG), and they require rolling a 6 to wound.
Sure, you can put it on a HT, but there goes your 'cheaper' assertion.
Lets take up your challenge. 4 warriors, LW/BS, AG 220pts (so not cheaper, but lets continue...)
You mentioned a chapter master:
Warriors charge: 20 attacks, 10 hits, 1.666 ID wounds.
Dimathingy charge: 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 ID wounds. *THEN* it gets another ID attack at the end of the turn.
So... dima is 200 pts for 6 ID wounds, or 220pts for warriors getting 1.667 ID wounds.... So the Dima is *4 times* more efficient in causing ID wounds...
This is what I mean about your bias making a mockery of your 'review'
I mean, if you really, really want a fast moving ID causing unit? Well, a unit of 5 Shrikes with flesh hooks and toxin sacs, 2 twin boneswords and 3 LAW/Boneswords costs less points than a Dime.
Um.... what codex are you using? That Shrike unit is 275 pts..... (even 4 would be more than the Dima, try doing the math with 3.5 shrikes)
They move faster, can Deep Strike, have a ranged attack in the flesh hooks and put out far more potential ID causing attacks.
Hahahaha... clever use of the word 'potential' there.... Many of those attacks come at I4, they are all at S4, and they require a 6 to ID in any case. The Dima is S8, so all the attacks on the charge can ID T4, otherwise, they only need a 4+ to ID. Dima rolls on 3+ on many targets causing the warriors to roll 4+.
Futher, the shrikes have no ability to gain FnP, have a 5+ save, and krak missiles will kill the shrikes faster than the Dima.
Yes, the shrikes have much more mobiity, and that is important. But that is, again, an issue you are not yet addressing. You keep reaching conclusions that the facts to not support.
A flyrant with LW/BS or if you pour some points the Reaper...sure, it costs more. But it comes with a far, FAR greater degree of mobility, Synapse and 2 psychic powers to boot.
You said you can get "more for less"... That HT will get about *1/9* the number of ID attacks on T4, and about 1/6 the number on T5+. *AND* it costs a about 25% *more*. So you are actually getting "a lot less, for more"
Do you have *any* comparison that actually supports this "more for less" assertion?? Seriously, you do realize that Boneswords only ID on a wound roll of 6... right?
Let's start with his movement
(snip)
Ok, so maybe movement's not good.
.
CONGRATULATIONS.... you have finally reached an actual problem with the Dima.... Yes, its movement *is* a problem. It is too dang slow... And Leaper is a joke.
WS 8 is horrendously redundant. Hitting on 3+s can be acheived with WS 5[ and since the average WS of troops in this game is 4...well, WS 8 does nothing to reduce the damage coming back to you in assault
Are you serious?? Do you really never fight anything besides Tac Marines? Even the Chapter master you mentioned has WS6. WS8 reduces a lot of attacks compared to WS5, like all of those models with WS5/6/7... This is really getting sad....
. That 4+ ID Dime brings seems a bit redundant against T4 multiwound units when Carnifexes do it by virtue of Strength alone.
SO DOES DIMA!!!! Believe it or not, S8 will ID T4 just as well as T4. *and* Dima gets more than double the attacks, *and* will hit more often.
Again, math is not your friend. Even in subsequent rounds, Dima will get *more* ID wounds needing a 4+, than the fex will get. The Dima will get about *3 times* the number of attacks, and hit more often. That 4+ just isn't that big of a deal at that point....
And again, (and again, and again) you skip over little things like generating a 4+ FnP....
However ....he has no access to Spine Banks or Flesh Hooks, so will be going at I1 if assaulting anything in cover.
Hey, congrats... you found the second problem for Dima....
Cause, you see, he also lacks Fearless. Sure, he's Ld 10.
But MCs cause FEAR. He faiils one LD test against one fear causing unit outside of Synapse range and he's a WS 1 piece of junk. It's rare....
Hahaha... man you are getting desparate.
Yes *IF* Dima is out of synapse, *AND* he is assaulted by a model with Fear, *and* he fails a Ld10 check (1 in 12), then yes, that will be a bad *single* round.... OTOH, if those fexes you keep promoting are out of synapse, there is about a 1 in 5 chance they stand around attacking each other...
DIma is a CC animal.... there just is no comparison in the book, not really. The main problem is getting into CC, and part of that is the lack of 'grenades'.... but most of your 'analysis' is marred by poor math and really bad assumptions....
SHUPPET wrote: Really good to see someone do an in depth analysis on it there DSS. Unbiased and well reasoned..
BWAHAhahahahaha......... Dude, there are plenty of reasons to dislike Dimathingy.... but if you found this 'unbiased and well reasoned'.... your glasses may need a new prescription....
Salty much?
I love the fact you've effectively turned this into a rather nasty attack on me, as seen further down the thread from the post quoted as well.
The Dima is a CC animal - with a lot of redundant stats and special rules that will never reliably see play or function. It suffers the same glaring weaknesses as CC Carnifexes and Trygons, but costs more than either.
And sure - the Trygon is also a turn 3 assault - which can deep strike onto the other end of the table while the Dima, assuming you put it fully forward and decided to run each turn for your average of 3.5 inches may just eventually get there, assuming it doesn't get shot to bits or completely outmaneuvered.
Ah, there's the difference. The Trygon can effectively FORCE its deployment - it can push itself right into an area and FORCE its opponent to deal with it while a Dima can be safely ignored and outmaneuvered with impunity. After all, Trygons do not mishap with their DS unless they go off the table AND they create an entry point for any other units you have in reserve coming in afterwards. The Dima does not do that, lacks any sort of firepower and most importantly lacks the capacity to deploy in any meaningful way to force your opponent to deal with him.
Furthermore - your crack about Hive Tyrants - I believe I refer to that. And in return for a few more points than a Dime you get Synapse and a ML 2 psyker.
Oh, and wings. Not that Flying offers a HUGE boost in mobility at all. Nope, clearly not.
Shrikes having no ability to gain FNP.
That there is adorable. Absolutely adorable. Have you forgotten that Tyranids are an army that is as much about synergy as Eldar? No ability to gain FNP? Zoanthropes and Tyrants. Plus 15 wounds of FNP Shrikes will be much durable against, say, massed Plasma Fire than 6 wounds of Dima which will never get to proc its FNP because no one in their right might will just sit there and let it advance close enough to be a threat.
Also, my bad about the Shrikes points. Forgot to carry a few things, eh. Happens when you're tired.
Also, your quip about the Dima having delivery issues.
Delivery issues. Really? You casually quip that and fail to see that those very delivery issues are the ENTIRE cause of complaint people have with the Dima. All the ID causing doomsday stats in the world mean nothing if they never see combat. And considering the Force Org slot its in? Well, it has to prove its worth against Harpies, Crones, Raveners, Shrikes and Gargoyles.
Now to be fair....if it was in HQ it would lose every time to Flyrants. If it was in Elites it would fall down flat on its face against Venomthropes and Zoanthropes for the utility and synergy they provide. And if it was in Heavy Support...eh, I dare say that would be a better place for it.
Heck, they could have even gone the whole hog, made it a Gargantuan Creature and called it a Lord of War. It's certainly got the size for that plus it would give it a base FNP and movement of 12". The FNP it gains is already an improved version. Would have helped survivability, helped the delivery issues and put it in a slot with far less competition - because really, even if they added 100 points or so for that it would still be coming well ahead of Hierodules.
But hey guys.
Less personal attacks on me please, thank you. You may not agree with my opinions but in the end they are just that. Opinions. Everyone is entitled to one and it doesn't ever have to be the same as yours.
So, TLDR
Less personal attacks.
So conversation about blatant points ignored for witty quips.
Shoulda made the Dima a 300 point or so LoW Gargantuan Creature - would have seriously fixed his problems right off the bat and put him in a Force Org slot where he's competing less with other units for value.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, hate on Trygons all you like.
My humble Trygon spent the better part of my last game today tanking a Reaver Titan and eventually taking it down.
Little bugger made his points back well and truly today.
It'd be unfortunate to have this thread derailed by gamer squabbling and have it closed down.
Maybe we can reserve the thread for actual Tyranid talk and on point discussion, rather than let conflicting personalities turn it into a negative place to post at.
Iechine wrote: It'd be unfortunate to have this thread derailed by gamer squabbling and have it closed down.
Maybe we can reserve the thread for actual Tyranid talk and on point discussion, rather than let conflicting personalities turn it into a negative place to post at.
Seconded. At this point, I say we all conclude that the Dimacheoron is not perfectly top tier, but can potentially work as a nasty assault unit if supported. And then, I encourage everyone to go take a Trygon model and proxy it in a game, form your own set of data, and lets look at some actual results. Until then, lets just forget the whole argument thing. Lets just see some BatReps!
I've just posted a new battle report up where I try out Tyraknights!
It works pretty effectively and goes to show how cool come the apocalypse allies are as there is very little restriction.
winterman wrote: Dima is better then a trygon. It's no contest. Can't zbelieve it's even being argued.
That said it won't have a place in most lists. There's no incentive to take expensive and slow assaulters in 7ed.
Technically I made the statement and you are in disbelief at your own decision to argue it. But I know what you meant.
I could say the exact same thing back to you. Trygon is better than this guy - and significantly so. I see situations where Dima could reliably outdamage the Trygon - and almost all of them are a direct result of my opponent being a potato. But meh it's opinions I guess.
I've just posted a new battle report up where I try out Tyraknights!
It works pretty effectively and goes to show how cool come the apocalypse allies are as there is very little restriction.
good br! Him focusing a Crone instead of the Flyrant turn two resulted in him nearly losing (very lucky not to) but if it was out of range or something, it makes sense. Not sure how void shields work - that entire thing is a mess of unsolvable rules disputes, the one you encountered being a more mild one.
Not going to lock the thread, but seriously, the bickering needs to stop.
You'll never convince the "other guy" that you're right and he's wrong; just put your opinion out there if you'd like, maybe make some counterpoints, but keep the interpersonal stuff to a minimum.
good br! Him focusing a Crone instead of the Flyrant turn two resulted in him nearly losing (very lucky not to) but if it was out of range or something, it makes sense. Not sure how void shields work - that entire thing is a mess of unsolvable rules disputes, the one you encountered being a more mild one.
Actually Void shields are pretty straight forward now. Ion Shields however are still flacky on vector strikes.
xttz wrote: Let's all squabble about how awesome the Malanthrope is instead!
In other news, tomorrow I'm ordering 3 Malanthropes...
I don't think anyone will squabble about putting the incredible augmentation of a Venomthrope on top of a Synapse MC. I think Malanthropes have become the silliest viable thing out of the entirely of IA 4 with that!
xttz wrote: Let's all squabble about how awesome the Malanthrope is instead!
In other news, tomorrow I'm ordering 3 Malanthropes...
I don't think anyone will squabble about putting the incredible augmentation of a Venomthrope on top of a Synapse MC. I think Malanthropes have become the silliest viable thing out of the entirely of IA 4 with that!
It's probably the best tyranid model, so much that you actually will feel guilty playing it... Really, if i wanted to play the cheese i wouldn't play nids and now they are forcing me that choice once again.
I know that bat reps with Dimey are still few and far between, but what do you guys think about using a couple squads of Genestealers with a dime or two? Naturally this would be ridiculous with MOA, but does it suffer from timing issues otherwise, as the Genestealers would be looking towards a turn 2 assault but Dimey likely wouldn't get there until turn 3? I feel like that might be too fragmented.
xttz wrote: Let's all squabble about how awesome the Malanthrope is instead!
In other news, tomorrow I'm ordering 3 Malanthropes...
I already put an order in for my Malanthrope. So excited! I've always loved the model. The Malanthrope and the Heirophant are my two favorite Forgeworld models ever. I am stoked to finally get one and have it be useable!
xttz wrote: Let's all squabble about how awesome the Malanthrope is instead!
In other news, tomorrow I'm ordering 3 Malanthropes...
I don't think anyone will squabble about putting the incredible augmentation of a Venomthrope on top of a Synapse MC. I think Malanthropes have become the silliest viable thing out of the entirely of IA 4 with that!
It's probably the best tyranid model, so much that you actually will feel guilty playing it... Really, if i wanted to play the cheese i wouldn't play nids and now they are forcing me that choice once again.
I don't think people will complain about you fielding the Malanthrope. Things that generate complaints are typically really killy. It's hard to rage too hard at something that never kills your models.
I'm so unusually excited for the new rules for the Malanthrope, I already put in my order for it. I had to stop myself frim ordering the full three but I figured I should probably play test it before I drop that kind of cash.
Has anyone had a chance to test them? How did they work out?
Eldercaveman wrote: I already have one painted and used it before the update because the model is awesome. So no one can complain about me using it now!
I will be picking up a second as well as a couple stone crushers and a Dimmy!
What are peoples thoughts on the stonecrusher now?
Well if you go by the past 2 pages of the thread the stonecrusher is absolute garbage because it doesn't move 18" a turn and auto win games.
Personally I like its abilities, ap2 s10 hammer of wrath is great. I will miss it's 2+ save however. But it got cheaper. All in all a good side grade.
It *is* really good. The fact that some folks think it is OP or cheesy, is more an indictment of our mediocre most of our dex is... that when we finally get a *good* unit, it is mistaken for a broken one.
coredump wrote: Just to clarify, the Malanthrope is not an MC.
It *is* really good. The fact that some folks think it is OP or cheesy, is more an indictment of our mediocre most of our dex is... that when we finally get a *good* unit, it is mistaken for a broken one.
It got de-MC'd? Still cool and in some ways better.
Eldercaveman wrote: I already have one painted and used it before the update because the model is awesome. So no one can complain about me using it now!
I will be picking up a second as well as a couple stone crushers and a Dimmy!
What are peoples thoughts on the stonecrusher now?
Well if you go by the past 2 pages of the thread the stonecrusher is absolute garbage because it doesn't move 18" a turn and auto win games.
Personally I like its abilities, ap2 s10 hammer of wrath is great. I will miss it's 2+ save however. But it got cheaper. All in all a good side grade.
I think the Stonecrusher got pretty great actually, it got way cheaper (expected, given that the base Carnifex got cheaper) and has a ton of great firepower. It laughs at the Smash nerf and gives us a way to reliably crush AV14 that isn't useless if it isn't going up against it. The loss of the 2+ sucks as well, but across the board we've had our 2+ saves taken from us so it doesn't surprise me. I'm excited to see some battle reports and do some tests myself with them!
Anyone feeling the Bone Mace? Instant Death seems pretty awesome but only really useful against multi-wound models over T5, which in my mind he'll have less attacks against because they'd be less models (or even one).
running the numbers, the SC fex isn't much different than a regular fex with AG and CCLaws. Fleet ends up making a pretty significant contribution to damage output.
When I first heard of the rules, I thought the flail upgrade gave you both weapons (wrecker claw and flail) and you could choose which one you use. But apparently that is not the case.
Also, it seems like the SCfex does not have two pairs of weapons, and thus does not get that extra attack.
coredump wrote: running the numbers, the SC fex isn't much different than a regular fex with AG and CCLaws. Fleet ends up making a pretty significant contribution to damage output.
When I first heard of the rules, I thought the flail upgrade gave you both weapons (wrecker claw and flail) and you could choose which one you use. But apparently that is not the case.
Also, it seems like the SCfex does not have two pairs of weapons, and thus does not get that extra attack.
Don't forget the strength 10 ap 2 HOW hits, those are as deadly as a Carnifex's normal attacks, but at initiative 10. Personally I think that the SC fex is only worth it with the Flail for Instant Death fun, otherwise I agree I might as well just use a normal fex. However, his increased durability is also fun.
I apologize for not putting up my Dimachaeron report, but I've been busy with BAOGT. Anyways, here's a little update about the BAO. It is a 2-day 6-game GT and Day #1 is already done (3 games each day). It is about 128 players.
After Day #1, there are 3 Tyranid players in the Top 13!
At 13th is yours truly and his Hive Fleet Pandora, or should I say Sky Fleet Pandora. I am bringing Skyblight and so far, I am 2-0-1 (W-L-D).
At 2nd place is a Tyranid player who so far is a perfect 3-0. Guess what he brought? A converted Dimarchaeron!
And at 1st is Team Zero Comp's very own....Jeff "InControl" Robinson! He is running a Barbed Hierodule and he has been crushing his opponents. Part of the reason was because his Hierodule was on fire ! He had 5-6 stomp attacks where he rolled 's on the Stomp table!
My goal isn't really to win the tournament. It is to try to win Best Tyranids. But I really have my work cut out for me, since they are now at 1st and 2nd place overall. Heck, if I can get Best Tyranid player, perhaps I can even potentially win it all! But I dare not dream that far....
Damn, I knew the Nids were good but I didnt see others using them at GTs this soon! I am expecting first place from the nids I want nothing but barren rocks left!
jy2 wrote: BAY AREA OPEN (BAO) GT TYRANID NEWSFLASH!!!
I apologize for not putting up my Dimachaeron report, but I've been busy with BAOGT. Anyways, here's a little update about the BAO. It is a 2-day 6-game GT and Day #1 is already done (3 games each day). It is about 128 players.
After Day #1, there are 3 Tyranid players in the Top 13!
At 13th is yours truly and his Hive Fleet Pandora, or should I say Sky Fleet Pandora. I am bringing Skyblight and so far, I am 2-0-1 (W-L-D).
At 2nd place is a Tyranid player who so far is a perfect 3-0. Guess what he brought? A converted Dimarchaeron!
And at 1st is Team Zero Comp's very own....Jeff "InControl" Robinson! He is running a Barbed Hierodule and he has been crushing his opponents. Part of the reason was because his Hierodule was on fire ! He had 5-6 stomp attacks where he rolled 's on the Stomp table!
My goal isn't really to win the tournament. It is to try to win Best Tyranids. But I really have my work cut out for me, since they are now at 1st and 2nd place overall. Heck, if I can get Best Tyranid player, perhaps I can even potentially win it all! But I dare not dream that far....
More updates tomorrow.
Way to go man! That's awesome!
Definitely get some pictures of the event and nid armies!
jy2 wrote: BAY AREA OPEN (BAO) GT TYRANID NEWSFLASH!!!
I apologize for not putting up my Dimachaeron report, but I've been busy with BAOGT. Anyways, here's a little update about the BAO. It is a 2-day 6-game GT and Day #1 is already done (3 games each day). It is about 128 players.
After Day #1, there are 3 Tyranid players in the Top 13!
At 13th is yours truly and his Hive Fleet Pandora, or should I say Sky Fleet Pandora. I am bringing Skyblight and so far, I am 2-0-1 (W-L-D).
At 2nd place is a Tyranid player who so far is a perfect 3-0. Guess what he brought? A converted Dimarchaeron!
And at 1st is Team Zero Comp's very own....Jeff "InControl" Robinson! He is running a Barbed Hierodule and he has been crushing his opponents. Part of the reason was because his Hierodule was on fire ! He had 5-6 stomp attacks where he rolled 's on the Stomp table!
My goal isn't really to win the tournament. It is to try to win Best Tyranids. But I really have my work cut out for me, since they are now at 1st and 2nd place overall. Heck, if I can get Best Tyranid player, perhaps I can even potentially win it all! But I dare not dream that far....
More updates tomorrow.
Come on guys, if you do well at a major G.T like that how else are we suppose to carry on fooling the world that our book is terrible! Stop stealing all the fun for everyone!
Just kidding, I want a 1,2,3 from the bugs!
What opponents have you had so far?
jifel wrote:
coredump wrote: running the numbers, the SC fex isn't much different than a regular fex with AG and CCLaws. Fleet ends up making a pretty significant contribution to damage output.
When I first heard of the rules, I thought the flail upgrade gave you both weapons (wrecker claw and flail) and you could choose which one you use. But apparently that is not the case.
Also, it seems like the SCfex does not have two pairs of weapons, and thus does not get that extra attack.
Don't forget the strength 10 ap 2 HOW hits, those are as deadly as a Carnifex's normal attacks, but at initiative 10. Personally I think that the SC fex is only worth it with the Flail for Instant Death fun, otherwise I agree I might as well just use a normal fex. However, his increased durability is also fun.
Did it keep the D3 HOW attacks?
I'm also unsure which load out to go for, as the stuff you really want the flail to be Instant Deathing, will be high toughness single model units like Wraithknights, so it will only get one attack!
Compared to a simplefex a crushfex costs 25% more and suffers:
0% wounds from S3 (FRFSRF this!)
100% wounds from S4
50% wounds from S5
66% wounds from S6
75% wounds from S7
80% wounds from S8
100% wounds from S9 and S10
100% wounds from poison
If in your meta the major offender for you fex comes from S3,S5,S6 or S7 then the stonecrusher is a good idea. The increased smashiness is just a bonus, a delivered meele fex is already a bloodbath.
Is that x% more survivable or takes x%more wounds?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The maths id be really interested in is what effect the new stonecrusher wound mechanic has on it's survivability against different strengths and ap values compared to a flat T6 and 2+ save?
60% wounds means that if an attack would do an average of 1 wound to a simplefex it would cause an average of 0.6 wounds on a crushfex, which is to say that it takes 66% more shots of that type to go down.
Now for the math you requested:
Compared to a T6 2+ a T7 3+:
S3 - Any AP - Suffers no wounds
S4 - AP 4 or higher - Suffer 100% more wounds
S4 - AP 3 - Suffer 600% more wounds
S4 - AP 2 - Suffer the same number of wounds
S5 - AP 4 or higher - Suffers same number of wounds
S5 - AP 3 - Suffers 300% wounds
S5 - AP 2 - Suffers 50% wounds
S6 - AP 4 or higher - Suffers 132% wounds
S6 - AP 3 - Suffers 396% wounds
S6 - AP 2 - Suffers 66% wounds
S7 - AP 4 or higher - Suffers 150% wounds
S7 - AP 3 - Suffers 450% wounds
S7 - AP 2 - Suffers 75% wounds
S8 - AP 4 or higher - Suffers 160% wounds
S8 - AP 3 - Suffers 480% wounds
S8 - AP 2 - Suffers 80% wounds
S9-10 - AP 4 or higher - Suffer 200% wounds
S9-10 - AP 3 - Suffer 600% wounds
S9-10 - AP 2 - Suffer same number of wounds
Naturally it loses badly on AP 3 and gains grounds against AP 2. On the other AP values it's always equal or worse. The biggest benefit is immunity to S3.
Eldercaveman wrote: I already have one painted and used it before the update because the model is awesome. So no one can complain about me using it now!
I will be picking up a second as well as a couple stone crushers and a Dimmy!
What are peoples thoughts on the stonecrusher now?
Well if you go by the past 2 pages of the thread the stonecrusher is absolute garbage because it doesn't move 18" a turn and auto win games.
Personally I like its abilities, ap2 s10 hammer of wrath is great. I will miss it's 2+ save however. But it got cheaper. All in all a good side grade.
Points cost for performance - as you said, it got cheaper. It getting cheaper will lean better in its favour.
It got cheaper and got AP 2 HoW hits. So a nice barrage of AP 2 at I10 is always a positive thing really.
Come on guys, if you do well at a major G.T like that how else are we suppose to carry on fooling the world that our book is terrible! Stop stealing all the fun for everyone!
Just kidding, I want a 1,2,3 from the bugs!
What opponents have you had so far?
While I didn't play against Eldar or Tau yet, I actually did have some pretty tough matchups.
Round 1, I played against Drop Pod marines with Marneus Calgar, 50 tacticals and 20 sternguards, all in drop pods. My deployment zone had only a small, small patch of terrain and he went 1st!
Round 2 I went up against SabrX's AV13 Sisters. That was 9 AV13 tanks (repressors and exorcists) and an Imperial Knight!
Finally, on round 3, I went up against White Scars with large AM blob squad in the Relic....where he went 1st!
In any case, you can expect full batreps in a few days.
Looking at Torrent of fire there isn't any really high placing Eldar players at the moment. Id love to see InControl take the whole thing, obviously I'd like to see you take the whole hung Jy but at the moment it seems more likely to be InControls.
coredump wrote: running the numbers, the SC fex isn't much different than a regular fex with AG and CCLaws. Fleet ends up making a pretty significant contribution to damage output.
When I first heard of the rules, I thought the flail upgrade gave you both weapons (wrecker claw and flail) and you could choose which one you use. But apparently that is not the case.
Also, it seems like the SCfex does not have two pairs of weapons, and thus does not get that extra attack.
The HoW attacks from the Stonecrusher are way more effective than a regular Fex. AP2 will ignore any armour save and have a chance to nuke vehicles outright, and they come with Armourbane / Monster Hunter to boot. Unless there are some invuln saves in play, Stonecrusher HoW attacks are virtually always going to cause damage. I keep forgetting to email FW and ask if you can take them as 'Carnifex Broods' in formations like Wrecker Node etc. D3+1 HoW attacks would even more be amazing.
Wrecker claws are the obvious answer to heavy fortifications (like the new AV15 stuff) and slow-moving objective-sitters like Land Raiders and Monoliths. They're pretty niche, but if you're having trouble with AV14/15 in your local meta this is the answer. The Bio-flail will ruin the day of most MCs and elite infantry without solid invuln saves - were I up against one, I'd be keeping my Terminators and Wraithknights well away. The Stonecrusher also becomes very difficult to tarpit here.
The Stonecrusher Fex is by no means an auto-include, but it does give new options to deal with certain situations we may have struggled with before.
coredump wrote: running the numbers, the SC fex isn't much different than a regular fex with AG and CCLaws. Fleet ends up making a pretty significant contribution to damage output.
When I first heard of the rules, I thought the flail upgrade gave you both weapons (wrecker claw and flail) and you could choose which one you use. But apparently that is not the case.
Also, it seems like the SCfex does not have two pairs of weapons, and thus does not get that extra attack.
The HoW attacks from the Stonecrusher are way more effective than a regular Fex. AP2 will ignore any armour save and have a chance to nuke vehicles outright, and they come with Armourbane / Monster Hunter to boot. Unless there are some invuln saves in play, Stonecrusher HoW attacks are virtually always going to cause damage. I keep forgetting to email FW and ask if you can take them as 'Carnifex Broods' in formations like Wrecker Node etc. D3+1 HoW attacks would even more be amazing.
Wrecker claws are the obvious answer to heavy fortifications (like the new AV15 stuff) and slow-moving objective-sitters like Land Raiders and Monoliths. They're pretty niche, but if you're having trouble with AV14/15 in your local meta this is the answer. The Bio-flail will ruin the day of most MCs and elite infantry without solid invuln saves - were I up against one, I'd be keeping my Terminators and Wraithknights well away. The Stonecrusher also becomes very difficult to tarpit here.
The Stonecrusher Fex is by no means an auto-include, but it does give new options to deal with certain situations we may have struggled with before.
A few of them charging a Knight will put some serious hurt on that with HoW as well.
A wrecker Brood of Stonecrushers sound amazing! Definitely worth a question!
I don't think InControl can keep rolling sixes and I think now that the other guy just below can keep getting his points back off the Dimmy now that he's near the top of my ladder
Be nice to see one of them pull through to first though. I'm hoping Jy ladders the highest since he's part of our little tactics discussion. If the Dimmy or two both finish extremely highly I'll be forced to take another look at it - but I'm thinking now that player skill may have evened itself out a little, they might start seeing diminishing returns. Can only wait and see. I'd rather InControl doesn't win as I don't really like the guy for basically being the charlatan of Starcraft, and not much different in 40k, but unfortunately I think he's got the best chance since his gimmick doesn't lean on having bad opponents.
Good luck to him and all three of them anyway, won't be sad to see any Tyranids at top regardless how it plays out. Definitely interesting. Wish badly that I could be there ;(
I think we forget how significant a boost the Marlstrom missions are for our army.
We have to be mobile. So that doesn't make a difference to us, some lists and armies cannot afford to move because of the effects it takes on their firepower. This benefits us massively.
coredump wrote: running the numbers, the SC fex isn't much different than a regular fex with AG and CCLaws. Fleet ends up making a pretty significant contribution to damage output.
When I first heard of the rules, I thought the flail upgrade gave you both weapons (wrecker claw and flail) and you could choose which one you use. But apparently that is not the case.
Also, it seems like the SCfex does not have two pairs of weapons, and thus does not get that extra attack.
The HoW attacks from the Stonecrusher are way more effective than a regular Fex. AP2 will ignore any armour save and have a chance to nuke vehicles outright, and they come with Armourbane / Monster Hunter to boot. Unless there are some invuln saves in play, Stonecrusher HoW attacks are virtually always going to cause damage. I keep forgetting to email FW and ask if you can take them as 'Carnifex Broods' in formations like Wrecker Node etc. D3+1 HoW attacks would even more be amazing.
Wrecker claws are the obvious answer to heavy fortifications (like the new AV15 stuff) and slow-moving objective-sitters like Land Raiders and Monoliths. They're pretty niche, but if you're having trouble with AV14/15 in your local meta this is the answer. The Bio-flail will ruin the day of most MCs and elite infantry without solid invuln saves - were I up against one, I'd be keeping my Terminators and Wraithknights well away. The Stonecrusher also becomes very difficult to tarpit here.
The Stonecrusher Fex is by no means an auto-include, but it does give new options to deal with certain situations we may have struggled with before.
I don't think I realized that you could choose to use the sweep attack or not. That makes the Flail a better option, although I do hope that it's clarified that it counts as a pair of weapons (the pair of claws uses the terminology pair so I'd think that it would count for the +1).
I doubt we'll be able to take these guys as a part of the normal Carnifex formations, just because they seem to be a separate entity altogether. D3+1 of the HoW hits would be amazing though!
Stonecrushers look good. Malanthrope seems pretty meh, I'd rathera a Zoey + Venom, or just a venom and my 50 pts back to turn a squad of Gants into Warriors for Synapse. Or just 2 Venoms. What's so great about these guys again? Doesn't read like a 100 pt model but maybe I'm missing something.
SHUPPET wrote: Stonecrushers look good. Malanthrope seems pretty meh, I'd rathera a Zoey + Venom, or just a venom and my 50 pts back to turn a squad of Gants into Warriors for Synapse. Or just 2 Venoms. What's so great about these guys again? Doesn't read like a 100 pt model but maybe I'm missing something.
I'm jazzed about them just because it won't be instagibbed by missile launchers or anything ignores cover, it's more durable and has regen. The Synapse and the other abilities are just icing on the cake for me. I usually take two Venomthropes but one Malanthrope is just slightly cheaper and seems to perform the role I want better (midfield Shrouded). For the backfield Venomthropes might be better, but if you play midfield and aggressive like 7th rewards I think the Malanthrope has the edge.
SHUPPET wrote: Stonecrushers look good. Malanthrope seems pretty meh, I'd rathera a Zoey + Venom, or just a venom and my 50 pts back to turn a squad of Gants into Warriors for Synapse. Or just 2 Venoms. What's so great about these guys again? Doesn't read like a 100 pt model but maybe I'm missing something.
Malanthrope breakdown:
5 pts less than 2 venomthropes
Same # of wounds as 2 venomthropes
Synapse creature
+1 toughness as venomthropes
Spore cloud
3+ armor (can save vs SMS, impaler cannons etc)
Grants preferred enemy after winning melee (situational but still a bonus)
Slightly smaller footprint than 2 VTs (drawback for spore cloud, benefit vs blasts/templates)
Challenge shenanigans (again situational but still a bonus)
Regeneration (this one is huge!)
Move through cover and fleet - it can keep up with the foot horde.
So for 5 pts less you get the overall effect of 2 T5 venomthropes. Factor in the synapse a zoanthrope would provide and the regeneration and it's 85 points "more efficient". It's harder to hide from LOS since it's 2x taller than the thropes, but the benefits now far outweigh the drawbacks.
As well as providing Synapse, SitW and Shrouded wrapped up in a tougher-than-normal package, the Malanthope makes a great supporting unit for melee. With Fleet and MTC it can keep up with most of our combat units well enough, and makes a good candidate to absorb overwatch fire thanks to T5, decent saves and Regen.
Once in combat with a unit, it has two useful abilities. Firstly it has a 50% chance of neutralising a troublesome Character with a pseudo-challenge (useful if there's a powerfist/klaw lurking in the enemy unit that would be a threat to Warriors, Shrikes, etc). After that, 2+ poison attacks at S5 and toxic miasma have a decent chance of inflicting some pain. Should you win the combat, the Malanthrope then starts dishing out Preferred Enemy to nearby units, becoming even stronger. It's certainly a nicer way to get PE than spending ~300pts on a Swarmlord.
jy2 wrote: BAY AREA OPEN (BAO) GT TYRANID NEWSFLASH!!!
I apologize for not putting up my Dimachaeron report, but I've been busy with BAOGT. Anyways, here's a little update about the BAO. It is a 2-day 6-game GT and Day #1 is already done (3 games each day). It is about 128 players.
After Day #1, there are 3 Tyranid players in the Top 13!
At 13th is yours truly and his Hive Fleet Pandora, or should I say Sky Fleet Pandora. I am bringing Skyblight and so far, I am 2-0-1 (W-L-D).
At 2nd place is a Tyranid player who so far is a perfect 3-0. Guess what he brought? A converted Dimarchaeron!
And at 1st is Team Zero Comp's very own....Jeff "InControl" Robinson! He is running a Barbed Hierodule and he has been crushing his opponents. Part of the reason was because his Hierodule was on fire ! He had 5-6 stomp attacks where he rolled 's on the Stomp table!
My goal isn't really to win the tournament. It is to try to win Best Tyranids. But I really have my work cut out for me, since they are now at 1st and 2nd place overall. Heck, if I can get Best Tyranid player, perhaps I can even potentially win it all! But I dare not dream that far....
The HoW attacks from the Stonecrusher are way more effective than a regular Fex. AP2 will ignore any armour save and have a chance to nuke vehicles outright, and they come with Armourbane / Monster Hunter to boot. Unless there are some invuln saves in play, Stonecrusher HoW attacks are virtually always going to cause damage.
But that is only on HoW attacks.
So lets review this. (assuming HoW rolls average of 2)
SC gets:
2 S10 AP2 Armorbane attacks
3 S10 AP2 attacks reroll armor pens
Fex with CCLaws and AG (same cost) gets:
2 S9 AP- attacks
5 S10 AP2 armorbane attacks.
Armorbane is better than rerolling Pens. Even if the CC fex skips its HoW attacks, it is *still* better than the SC fex.
Now, the SCfex does get the -1S to shooting attacks, but the CC fex gets Fleet, so it can close the distance faster and less likely to fail the charge roll.
Glad to see the Dima kicking ass and taking names. I knew this thing would be a beast along with the crushing fex/malanthropes we finally have some very viable units.
I know it hasnt changed much, but could you post the Hierophant's page as well? It would basically save me dropping the cash on the book just to have official rules for 1 model.
jy2 wrote: BAY AREA OPEN (BAO) GT TYRANID NEWSFLASH!!!
I apologize for not putting up my Dimachaeron report, but I've been busy with BAOGT. Anyways, here's a little update about the BAO. It is a 2-day 6-game GT and Day #1 is already done (3 games each day). It is about 128 players.
After Day #1, there are 3 Tyranid players in the Top 13!
Are there any Tyranid players with a winning record who aren't running skyblight?
I need help thinking up the most filthy kill team list we can field. I have a tournament on Saturday and I feel like winning! Although I might just bring Necrons instead
Eldercaveman wrote: I need help thinking up the most filthy kill team list we can field. I have a tournament on Saturday and I feel like winning! Although I might just bring Necrons instead
I'd include at least 1 Malanthrope. What's the points? 200, 250?
I played my first game of 7th against tyranids. Their strength is in an unbound list of a crap ton of individual MCs. My orcs couldn't take the punishment.
I fielded the Waaagh council and was laying a hurt on them but it would have taken me 15 turns to kill everything he had.
You wanna play and win tyranids? Play them unbound and in individual groups.
jy2 wrote: BAY AREA OPEN (BAO) GT TYRANID NEWSFLASH!!!
I apologize for not putting up my Dimachaeron report, but I've been busy with BAOGT. Anyways, here's a little update about the BAO. It is a 2-day 6-game GT and Day #1 is already done (3 games each day). It is about 128 players.
After Day #1, there are 3 Tyranid players in the Top 13!
Are there any Tyranid players with a winning record who aren't running skyblight?
InControl is not running skyblight, and Matt Evans is not running skyblight, and Vince didn't run Skyblight at Brawl in Fall... not sure wbout now.
Eldercaveman wrote: I need help thinking up the most filthy kill team list we can field. I have a tournament on Saturday and I feel like winning! Although I might just bring Necrons instead
I'd include at least 1 Malanthrope. What's the points? 200, 250?
CMs & Multiwound models being not allowed makes us likely the worst kill team army in the game. We have very little options left and no way to break a Rhino. Basically just spam Gants and hope to win the war of attrition. Very little else you can do except start a second army for KT. It's cheap at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, JY2 ends up in 35th. He lost the last game 5-6. If he had won that game 6-5 instead, he would have been in 11th instead of 35th.
Eldercaveman wrote: I need help thinking up the most filthy kill team list we can field. I have a tournament on Saturday and I feel like winning! Although I might just bring Necrons instead
I'd include at least 1 Malanthrope. What's the points? 200, 250?
No Forge World and 200 points.
1 Zoanthrope
20 Termagants: 17× devourer
198 points
Your zoey is critical as it keeps your chittering horde in line. Protect it at all costs. The devilgants put out so much firepower and have tons of expendable bodies you can potentially overwhelm your enemies. For lolz give 1 termagant armor bane as a specialist. 4+2d6 can potentially slag a land raider.
SHUPPET wrote: CMs & Multiwound models being not allowed makes us likely the worst kill team army in the game. We have very little options left and no way to break a Rhino. Basically just spam Gants and hope to win the war of attrition. Very little else you can do except start a second army for KT. It's cheap at least.
This is false and if you believed that, yes, Tyranids would suck in Kill Team. Instead, the Kill Team rules say that you can't have any model with more than three wounds. You can't take MC's, but Warriors,Shrikes, or other 2 or 3 wound models are fair game.
The Kill Team I ran for my local league was 4 Warriors and a Hive Guard.
I don't know if this has been discussed before but is anyone using dakkafexen - twin-linked devourers... A brood of three can lay down 36 shots—brutal. Overwatch from them is suicide... Way better than Tau missileside IMO, I had a gun battle against them with an invisible six man Dev Cent squad (missile launchers)... Ended up taking out two units but gosh it was bloody as heck.
Dozer Blades wrote: I don't know if this has been discussed before but is anyone using dakkafexen - twin-linked devourers... A brood of three can lay down 36 shots—brutal. Overwatch from them is suicide... Way better than Tau missileside IMO, I had a gun battle against them with an invisible six man Dev Cent squad (missile launchers)... Ended up taking out two units but gosh it was bloody as heck.
I LOVE Devilfexes, I run a brood of 3 in almost every list I make. They're just so versatile and durable. I play Tau as well and I have WAY more success with 3 Devilfexes than I do with missilesides (which I run 6 in most of my Tau lists). They're just so brutal against anything that isn't AV13+, you can point them at anything and watch it die. Properly supported by some Zoanthropes for a shot at Catalyst or Onslaught and a Venomthrope (or now Malanthrope I suppose) and they're just a pain to deal with. I was sold on them from my first game of the new codex, and now they score. So glad that Fexes are back!
Dozer Blades wrote: I don't know if this has been discussed before but is anyone using dakkafexen - twin-linked devourers... A brood of three can lay down 36 shots—brutal. Overwatch from them is suicide... Way better than Tau missileside IMO, I had a gun battle against them with an invisible six man Dev Cent squad (missile launchers)... Ended up taking out two units but gosh it was bloody as heck.
Yep. Im practicing for a 2 CAD tourney in October with this list:
Devilfexes are one of the best units we have available. They can deal with a very wide selection of targets.
I would advise running them in broods of 1 or 2; once you get to 3, it is too easy to lose out from overkilling your targets. They are particularly good at dealing with transports, but you only need one to do that.
SHUPPET wrote: CMs & Multiwound models being not allowed makes us likely the worst kill team army in the game. We have very little options left and no way to break a Rhino. Basically just spam Gants and hope to win the war of attrition. Very little else you can do except start a second army for KT. It's cheap at least.
This is false and if you believed that, yes, Tyranids would suck in Kill Team. Instead, the Kill Team rules say that you can't have any model with more than three wounds. You can't take MC's, but Warriors,Shrikes, or other 2 or 3 wound models are fair game.
The Kill Team I ran for my local league was 4 Warriors and a Hive Guard.
Kills team rules-
No 2+ Saves.
No models with more than three wounds.
No vehicles with a combined armor value of more than 33.
No special characters(I think).
I liked to run three warriors(one with barbed strangler), Hive Guard, and ten gargoyles. Of course points levels can swing widely, but that's what I try to fit in.
Eternal Warrior on one warrior, Ignores Cover on the strangler, and preferred enemy on the hive guard. Third warrior is leader.
I would love to see the list with the Dime in it. Even though it didn't finish as strongly as it started, I think it goes to show that it can perform well. 3 wins at a GT is enough for me to grab the thing with no worries.
So, ran a 3 way fight this morning with my nids. 500 points vs Zombie Horde vs Guard + Dark Angels.
The basic lists were;
'Nids;
Tervigon
Zoanthrope
3x 20x Termagants
Zombie Horde;
Typhus
2x Plague Zombie Hordes
Guard + Dark Angels
Lord Commissar
2x Vet Squads
2x Tactical Squads w/ Plasma Cannons
The game ended in a tie, with both myself and the Imperium player scoring only a single kill point, and the Chaos player walking...the entire game. The Tervigon went menopausal after the second spawning, earning me an extra 96 points in Termagants. Typhus managed to get some decent warp charges and manifested powers, earning me a few times where my Termagants were dropped down to T1 S1. I looked over his Nurgle units, and found them fairly impressive. Realistically, what would be my best option for for shifting combat in my favor with someone who can bring 70+ and growing plague zombies in a game. I know I can just avoid them due to their slow movement, but that never fit my general BTTW attitude with my swarm.
That is his Dimachaeron above. Sorry I didn't take a picture at the tournament, but I was too darn busy and didn't have time.
Also, while he brought his converted Dimachaeron, he didn't actually run it in the tournament. He only brought it there for show. So no Dimey in competitive play just yet.
Ok, now on to my update.
Second of all, I just wanted to say this. Space Marines are sooooo good in this edition. I faced 4 Space Marine-type armies and they were all tough, tough battles. With the exception of 1 of those games, I was behind in 3 of those games almost the entire time. Moreover, marines dominated at the BAO. 5 of the top 10 and 9 of the top 20 were Space Marines. Folks, if you want to do well at a tournament, make sure you can handle massive amounts of Objective Secured troops in ObSec transports as well. One of the Marine players I played against ended the tournament 2nd Overall. Another two ended 10th and 13th. Finally, the last opponent, actually Grey Knight with Marines allies, ended the tournament 14th. Wow! Just wow!
So after Day #1, I was pretty stoked but I knew Day #2 would be the real test.
Round 4 - I was supposed to face Eldar but my opponent didn't show up (he came in 1 hour late). Thus, I was paired with whoever else didn't have an opponent. He ran Astra Militarum and he was actually last place at that point. Well, better to play someone than to get the forfeiture win. I got Master of Ambush, went first and needless to say, I won this one quite easily.
At those point, both Geoff and Matt lost and so I am #1 Tyranid player at the moment.
Round 5 - At this point, I was #5 overall. I played against Grey Knights with Space Marine allies and he ran the Centurionstar. It was probably the meanest Centstar I ever saw! He had almost everything on his star - Invisibility, Gate of Infinity, Precognition, Prescience, Forewarning, etc. - and he went 1st! I was basically getting my ass kicked the entire game. However, through sheer tactical play, I would have won the game had it ended on 5. No, it went on. Turn 6 I needed my gargoyles to recycle and indeed they did, moving onto an objective. Would have won had the game ended on 6. And then it went to 7. F*ck!!! Despite getting shellacked for most of the game, it was one that I should have won and thoroughly out-played my opponent. But it just wasn't meant to be. He took Primary (by just 2 Heavy Supports in Big Guns) and I took Secondary in a very tense and exciting game.
Both Geoff and Matt lose once again and so I am still top bug player.
Round 6 - So I drop down to around 15-16th. I go up against another Space Marine player, running Salamander Space Marines in 5 drop pods and with 3 Forgeworld tanks (the Relic tanks and a LR Achilles). Let me tell you, those tanks were wicked sick. One of them was a Relic Predator Annihilator with AV13 all around and a gun where you couldn't jink against. The other was an Relic Whirlwind with AV13 that fired D3+1 S8 AP3 barrage blasts. But get this, it ignores cover! Damnnnnnn.
Once again, he went 1st against me (in every single game against Marines, they went 1st) and it was a struggle for me. I was way behind all game, but on the last turn, I almost pulled it off! Once again, I outplayed my opponent and almost grasped victory from the jaws of defeat. He had both Primary and Secondary, but I managed to steal Primary away from him on the last turn. However, I needed to kill off just 2 marines claiming Linebreaker from me but just couldn't do it. Despite getting my a$$ kicked all game once again, I almost had another upset win and lost a very close game by just 1-pt, 6-5.
Geoff was able to win his last game to pull ahead of me to take Best Tyranids. I ended up 2nd best bugs.
But man, had I won Game #5 - a game that I should have won - I might have been playing for the Championships or at least Top 4. Sigh.....
Zagman wrote: Way to go Jim! Wish I could have been there, but it's half the country away.
8 out if the top 13 were SM. I guess ObSec MSU is the real deal. Adapt or Perish.
Thanks!
Yeah, marines are so hard to deal with for bugs, especially when they run an alpha-strike army like White Scars bikes or drop pods and they are going 1st. Now with battle brothers, they have a lot of obscene combinations that Eldar and Tau used to have back in 6th. Marines, Eldar and perhaps Necrons are probably the 3 best armies currently.
luke1705 wrote: I would love to see the list with the Dime in it. Even though it didn't finish as strongly as it started, I think it goes to show that it can perform well. 3 wins at a GT is enough for me to grab the thing with no worries.
3/6, 1 of which was a luck match up against the player at the very bottom of the ladder, the other 2 in the early rounds where the pairings aren't yet based on skill level. It looks like every game against a higher level opponent was a loss, pretty much what I expected from Dima lists unfortunately.
Sorry, I thought Kill Team cut the limit at 3+ wounds for some reason. There's so many different rulesets out there for it I don't know what I read lol. I generally use my DE for KT.
yeah he was talking about a dima list a few pages back in this thread, but it looks like he took skyblight to the BAO. i don't think anyone brought the new bug.
Zagman wrote: Way to go Jim! Wish I could have been there, but it's half the country away.
8 out if the top 13 were SM. I guess ObSec MSU is the real deal. Adapt or Perish.
Thanks!
Yeah, marines are so hard to deal with for bugs, especially when they run an alpha-strike army like White Scars bikes or drop pods and they are going 1st. Now with battle brothers, they have a lot of obscene combinations that Eldar and Tau used to have back in 6th. Marines, Eldar and perhaps Necrons are probably the 3 best armies currently.
Well played Jy2, sometimes the dices just want otherwise.
What i'd really like to ask though is how was the game atmosphere compared to 6E events. More specifically, 6E events turned from "Events of high level fairplay" to Warmachine style "Show me your cheese". How would you rate the games you had at this event? Good games were both players have fun or "Throw more cheese!" kind of games?
Zagman wrote: Way to go Jim! Wish I could have been there, but it's half the country away.
8 out if the top 13 were SM. I guess ObSec MSU is the real deal. Adapt or Perish.
Thanks!
Yeah, marines are so hard to deal with for bugs, especially when they run an alpha-strike army like White Scars bikes or drop pods and they are going 1st. Now with battle brothers, they have a lot of obscene combinations that Eldar and Tau used to have back in 6th. Marines, Eldar and perhaps Necrons are probably the 3 best armies currently.
Is the reason Bugs did so well on Day 1 and poorly on Day 2 related to the matchup algorithm used at BAO?
CKO wrote: Last time saying this the DIME ROCKS!!!
Damn, I knew the Nids were good but I didnt see others using them at GTs this soon! I am expecting first place from the nids I want nothing but barren rocks left!
SHUPPET wrote: [
3/6, 1 of which was a luck match up against the player at the very bottom of the ladder, the other 2 in the early rounds where the pairings aren't yet based on skill level. It looks like every game against a higher level opponent was a loss, pretty much what I expected from Dima lists unfortunately.
.
Lots of conclusions to draw from just one army....at just one event.... that didn't even use the Dimathingy...
Congrats to all of the Nid players at the BAO. Even if the dice decided against you, there was plenty of excitement, and there was still a good deal of success all around. I really would like to make it to the BAO one of these days...
Now, the problem seems to be dealing with Space Marines. Maybe that's a West Coast thing, because I don't really see Marines as *that* big of a threat. How exactly are they Alpha-striking Tyranids? FMCs near a Venom Bastion can jink for an easy 2++ cover save, and then we just throw all of our DTW dice at the ignores cover power if they have it. With a bit of positioning it also isn't hard to surround the Bastion in bodies so that no one can land within 6" of it for a Melta shot. Lot's of Objective Secured is, of course, not fun, but we can usually take out Rhinos with ease, and weight of fire usually serves to take out those pesky SMurfs.
With regards to the Dimachaeron, let me say once again that the Tyranid player did not run the Dima in the tournament. He only brought it there for show.
Well played Jy2, sometimes the dices just want otherwise.
What i'd really like to ask though is how was the game atmosphere compared to 6E events. More specifically, 6E events turned from "Events of high level fairplay" to Warmachine style "Show me your cheese". How would you rate the games you had at this event? Good games were both players have fun or "Throw more cheese!" kind of games?
It's similar. There's still a lot of deathstar builds and still a lot of combos out there in 7th, only now the combos are more on the Imperial side than the Xenos side instead.
The main difference now is in the troops. Whereas last edition de-emphasized the troop in favor of more killing power, in this edition it is more about Objective Secured, as the strong performance by marines appear to indicate. Even the top Eldar player (3rd) had very strong ObSec troops (9 in total). As for marines, it was all about the ObSec.
Is the reason Bugs did so well on Day 1 and poorly on Day 2 related to the matchup algorithm used at BAO?
It was probably a combination of matchups and some luck. Normally in tournaments, you start off getting paired randomly. As you progress, you play other winners and the matchups get harder and harder.
If you got lucky, you might get paired with some easier matchups initially. But the more dominant your win, the tougher your matchup will be in the next round as the armies with the higher battle points usually face off against each other.
Now I can't really say how the other Tyranid players matched up, but almost all of my matches were tough. On Day #1, 2 of my opponents ended the tournament 2nd and 10th Overall. One of them even beat Grant Theft Auto's seer council Deldar. On Day #2, 2 of my opponents ended the tourney 13th and 14th overall.
1 of my opponents even beat 3 GT winners - me, Adam (Mortetvie) and Dan May (Capt Dees)!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jifel wrote: Congrats to all of the Nid players at the BAO. Even if the dice decided against you, there was plenty of excitement, and there was still a good deal of success all around. I really would like to make it to the BAO one of these days...
Now, the problem seems to be dealing with Space Marines. Maybe that's a West Coast thing, because I don't really see Marines as *that* big of a threat. How exactly are they Alpha-striking Tyranids? FMCs near a Venom Bastion can jink for an easy 2++ cover save, and then we just throw all of our DTW dice at the ignores cover power if they have it. With a bit of positioning it also isn't hard to surround the Bastion in bodies so that no one can land within 6" of it for a Melta shot. Lot's of Objective Secured is, of course, not fun, but we can usually take out Rhinos with ease, and weight of fire usually serves to take out those pesky SMurfs.
What exactly was the winning list?
Winning list was White Scars bikers with Imperial Knight ally.
The problem is - and this is more pertaining to my games - drop podding meltas against the bastion in Dawn of War deployment. Yes, that happened both times to me against 2 drop pod marine armies. Both were in DoW deployment where it was hard to fully insulate my bastion with bubble-wrapping and both were with my opponents going 1st. Moreover, my 2nd drop pod opponent had tanks that ignored cover, including one that fired D3+1 S8 AP3 cover-ignoring barrages. And both players tried to take out my bastion (they didn't succeed on Turn 1 but did so on Turn 2 before I could use my Comms Relay for my reserves). However, even with 2+ cover, in each game my opponent was able to take out a flyrant on Turn 1 (actually, in 3 of my games against marines). So in essence, I had to take out his troops with already a large handicap (less 1 flyrant). To add insult to injury, when I did get into assault, I was doing piss-poor. In one of my games, one of my flyrants was tied up all game by combat squads because I sucked so hard in close combat. Lol.
Then again, part of it may have been my lack of experience as well. I actually haven't played my nids all that much in this edition yet (only 2 games before the tournament, of which 1 was skyblight). I also haven't played against Drop pod marines in this edition yet either.
Nice work Jim and better luck next time with a few more pre tournament games under your belt, who knows, you could be right up there. Like you say, that game 5 was very close.
I'm interested if you are considering any changes to the current Sky blight list you are running now considering you have probably a better understanding of current meta?
I'm also running Sky blight and my current fear is 3 Wraith Knights which I think we'll perhaps start to see more of.
Is it really fair to say it was all because of the dice causing the game to go on?
The odds weren't really broken; more often than not, the game lasts beyond turn 5.
Is it really fair to say it was all because of the dice causing the game to go on?
The odds weren't really broken; more often than not, the game lasts beyond turn 5.
It's quite rare for a competitive game to go all the way to 7, most games end turn 5 due to time restrictions.
Is it really fair to say it was all because of the dice causing the game to go on?
The odds weren't really broken; more often than not, the game lasts beyond turn 5.
It's quite rare for a competitive game to go all the way to 7, most games end turn 5 due to time restrictions.
Oh I agree 100%, but when there is time for more rounds, more often than not, the dice will tell you to keep playing,
People were acting like the dice causing round 6 and 7 was rare.
You have a 33% chance of seeing turn 7. While not rare, it's nothing to be counted on.
edit: (66% chance of turn 6, and then half of the turn 6's will see turn 7)
That is his Dimachaeron above. Sorry I didn't take a picture at the tournament, but I was too darn busy and didn't have time.
Also, while he brought his converted Dimachaeron, he didn't actually run it in the tournament. He only brought it there for show. So no Dimey in competitive play just yet.
Ok, now on to my update.
Second of all, I just wanted to say this. Space Marines are sooooo good in this edition. I faced 4 Space Marine-type armies and they were all tough, tough battles. With the exception of 1 of those games, I was behind in 3 of those games almost the entire time. Moreover, marines dominated at the BAO. 5 of the top 10 and 9 of the top 20 were Space Marines. Folks, if you want to do well at a tournament, make sure you can handle massive amounts of Objective Secured troops in ObSec transports as well. One of the Marine players I played against ended the tournament 2nd Overall. Another two ended 10th and 13th. Finally, the last opponent, actually Grey Knight with Marines allies, ended the tournament 14th. Wow! Just wow!
So after Day #1, I was pretty stoked but I knew Day #2 would be the real test.
Round 4 - I was supposed to face Eldar but my opponent didn't show up (he came in 1 hour late). Thus, I was paired with whoever else didn't have an opponent. He ran Astra Militarum and he was actually last place at that point. Well, better to play someone than to get the forfeiture win. I got Master of Ambush, went first and needless to say, I won this one quite easily.
At those point, both Geoff and Matt lost and so I am #1 Tyranid player at the moment.
Round 5 - At this point, I was #5 overall. I played against Grey Knights with Space Marine allies and he ran the Centurionstar. It was probably the meanest Centstar I ever saw! He had almost everything on his star - Invisibility, Gate of Infinity, Precognition, Prescience, Forewarning, etc. - and he went 1st! I was basically getting my ass kicked the entire game. However, through sheer tactical play, I would have won the game had it ended on 5. No, it went on. Turn 6 I needed my gargoyles to recycle and indeed they did, moving onto an objective. Would have won had the game ended on 6. And then it went to 7. F*ck!!! Despite getting shellacked for most of the game, it was one that I should have won and thoroughly out-played my opponent. But it just wasn't meant to be. He took Primary (by just 2 Heavy Supports in Big Guns) and I took Secondary in a very tense and exciting game.
Both Geoff and Matt lose once again and so I am still top bug player.
Round 6 - So I drop down to around 15-16th. I go up against another Space Marine player, running Salamander Space Marines in 5 drop pods and with 3 Forgeworld tanks (the Relic tanks and a LR Achilles). Let me tell you, those tanks were wicked sick. One of them was a Relic Predator Annihilator with AV13 all around and a gun where you couldn't jink against. The other was an Relic Whirlwind with AV13 that fired D3+1 S8 AP3 barrage blasts. But get this, it ignores cover! Damnnnnnn.
Once again, he went 1st against me (in every single game against Marines, they went 1st) and it was a struggle for me. I was way behind all game, but on the last turn, I almost pulled it off! Once again, I outplayed my opponent and almost grasped victory from the jaws of defeat. He had both Primary and Secondary, but I managed to steal Primary away from him on the last turn. However, I needed to kill off just 2 marines claiming Linebreaker from me but just couldn't do it. Despite getting my a$$ kicked all game once again, I almost had another upset win and lost a very close game by just 1-pt, 6-5.
Geoff was able to win his last game to pull ahead of me to take Best Tyranids. I ended up 2nd best bugs.
But man, had I won Game #5 - a game that I should have won - I might have been playing for the Championships or at least Top 4. Sigh.....
Oh well, another time. Thanks for reading.
Dude! you did awesome! Yeah, with the nerf to Shadow, GKs are a hard foe.. Sounds like it was fun, and Nids showed themselves to be competitive.
I know it hasnt changed much, but could you post the Hierophant's page as well? It would basically save me dropping the cash on the book just to have official rules for 1 model.
Is it really fair to say it was all because of the dice causing the game to go on?
The odds weren't really broken; more often than not, the game lasts beyond turn 5.
It's quite rare for a competitive game to go all the way to 7, most games end turn 5 due to time restrictions.
Oh I agree 100%, but when there is time for more rounds, more often than not, the dice will tell you to keep playing,
People were acting like the dice causing round 6 and 7 was rare.
Meh, in round 4 his opponent got delayed meaning instead of getting matched against a top tier Eldar player got a game against the player at the bottom of the ladder. It's not really fair to blame luck at all considered it contributed to him even getting to that point.
CKO wrote: Last time saying this the DIME ROCKS!!!
Damn, I knew the Nids were good but I didnt see others using them at GTs this soon! I am expecting first place from the nids I want nothing but barren rocks left!
SHUPPET wrote: [
3/6, 1 of which was a luck match up against the player at the very bottom of the ladder, the other 2 in the early rounds where the pairings aren't yet based on skill level. It looks like every game against a higher level opponent was a loss, pretty much what I expected from Dima lists unfortunately.
.
Lots of conclusions to draw from just one army....at just one event.... that didn't even use the Dimathingy...
.
A.) my post isn't drawing any conclusions about anything, merely speculating as to why events played out the way they did based off the hard info I DID have. In no way was a conclusion made, at best a mistake. B according to jy2 at the time there was a Dima, which we now know to be his mistake not ours. And C the first guy you quoted may hav e been jumping to conclusions, but if those two statements he made were seperates for a reason than he didn't, and you've just jumped to a conclusion in reading his post
Also, is it necessary to be so condescending with every post? Why not contribute to the strategy or discussion at hand a little more, instead of just butting in here and there to call peoples opinions bias or saying we need glasses or making posts like this..
jifel wrote: Congrats to all of the Nid players at the BAO. Even if the dice decided against you, there was plenty of excitement, and there was still a good deal of success all around. I really would like to make it to the BAO one of these days...
Now, the problem seems to be dealing with Space Marines. Maybe that's a West Coast thing, because I don't really see Marines as *that* big of a threat. How exactly are they Alpha-striking Tyranids? FMCs near a Venom Bastion can jink for an easy 2++ cover save, and then we just throw all of our DTW dice at the ignores cover power if they have it. With a bit of positioning it also isn't hard to surround the Bastion in bodies so that no one can land within 6" of it for a Melta shot. Lot's of Objective Secured is, of course, not fun, but we can usually take out Rhinos with ease, and weight of fire usually serves to take out those pesky SMurfs.
What exactly was the winning list?
Winning list was White Scars bikers with Imperial Knight ally.
The problem is - and this is more pertaining to my games - drop podding meltas against the bastion in Dawn of War deployment. Yes, that happened both times to me against 2 drop pod marine armies. Both were in DoW deployment where it was hard to fully insulate my bastion with bubble-wrapping and both were with my opponents going 1st. Moreover, my 2nd drop pod opponent had tanks that ignored cover, including one that fired D3+1 S8 AP3 cover-ignoring barrages. And both players tried to take out my bastion (they didn't succeed on Turn 1 but did so on Turn 2 before I could use my Comms Relay for my reserves). However, even with 2+ cover, in each game my opponent was able to take out a flyrant on Turn 1 (actually, in 3 of my games against marines). So in essence, I had to take out his troops with already a large handicap (less 1 flyrant). To add insult to injury, when I did get into assault, I was doing piss-poor. In one of my games, one of my flyrants was tied up all game by combat squads because I sucked so hard in close combat. Lol.
Then again, part of it may have been my lack of experience as well. I actually haven't played my nids all that much in this edition yet (only 2 games before the tournament, of which 1 was skyblight). I also haven't played against Drop pod marines in this edition yet either.
In my opinion, it's probably a combination of your list being heavily reliant on Venombastion, and the fact that you have only had one game against them so far ever. I actually find that Tyranids are one of the worst match ups drop pod Marines can roll - allowing our entire army to shoot and often charge turn 1, completely mitigating our natural range disadvantage, with the fact that a lot of our bodies are T6 W6 +3 often chiming in to mitigate their alpha that they rely on so heavily (IE durability, but also do say 4 T6 wounds and see absolutely no return for it that turn). Play some more games with them and take note of your win ratio against them - I mean you won your match up anyway right?
That being said, a lot of what I just said is much less applicable to your Skyblight, but Living Artillery Nids should literally have no trouble in the fight with Drop Pod marines, although has to be proactive towards ensuring we win on scoring. Should still be the match up most Nids WANT to see.
SHUPPET wrote: In my opinion, it's probably a combination of your list being heavily reliant on Venombastion, and the fact that you have only had one game against them so far ever. I actually find that Tyranids are one of the worst match ups drop pod Marines can roll - allowing our entire army to shoot and often charge turn 1, completely mitigating our natural range disadvantage, with the fact that a lot of our bodies are T6 W6 +3 often chiming in to mitigate their alpha that they rely on so heavily (IE durability, but also do say 4 T6 wounds and see absolutely no return for it that turn). Play some more games with them and take note of your win ratio against them - I mean you won your match up anyway right?
That being said, a lot of what I just said is much less applicable to your Skyblight, but Living Artillery Nids should literally have no trouble in the fight with Drop Pod marines, although has to be proactive towards ensuring we win on scoring. Should still be the match up most Nids WANT to see.
GravStar on the other hand , no sir ! Lol.
I generally agree that Tyranids pose a rough matchup for drop pod marines. But the key is being able to properly bubble-wrap. Skyblight isn't the best for that especially if you are trying to reserve the Crones and Harpies. Personally, I would try to not reserve anything if facing drop pod marines. You'd alot rather lose a Harpy than a Flyrant. I can't remember the last time I lost a flyrant to Drop Pod alpha strike. I lose carnifexes, Exocrines, Crones, Tervigons, even the occasional Tyrannofex, but I always deploy so that Flyrants are the best bubble wrapped, and the hardest to alpha strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is my measure for how many Flyrants are too many. If I can't properly bubblewrap them against drop pods, then I need fewer flyrants, and more other things.
Even though I'm a big fan of Deep Striking Rippers, I keep one unit of gants in my list for the sole purpose of dealing with Drop Pods. DP armies aren't very common here, but I can still bubble wrap my Bastion so that every bug in my army has a 2++ cover save except for a few gants. I don't recall jy2s exact list, but I would think that the Gargoyles could have been able to bubble wrap the Bastion. Against Drop Pods in Dawn of War, I will happily put my bastion all the way in the back of my DZ so I can properly block it off. After all, if they go first than I can assault any of their units that get close to my base...
However, I think that Skyblight is too many FMCs actually. For me, 4-5 is a magic number. The only lists I have written with Skyblight are just to include a third Flyrant. Other than that, I don't like paying a Harpy and Gargoyle tax. Note that in my area we play pretty much 0% Maelstrom missions, I can see them being a ton more valuable in that, but 10 gargoyles will be killed easily late in the game and coming back will have little impact. I'll be sticking with normal CAD full of FMCs, but I may add some Forge World fun!
jifel wrote: Even though I'm a big fan of Deep Striking Rippers, I keep one unit of gants in my list for the sole purpose of dealing with Drop Pods. DP armies aren't very common here, but I can still bubble wrap my Bastion so that every bug in my army has a 2++ cover save except for a few gants. I don't recall jy2s exact list, but I would think that the Gargoyles could have been able to bubble wrap the Bastion. Against Drop Pods in Dawn of War, I will happily put my bastion all the way in the back of my DZ so I can properly block it off. After all, if they go first than I can assault any of their units that get close to my base...
However, I think that Skyblight is too many FMCs actually. For me, 4-5 is a magic number. The only lists I have written with Skyblight are just to include a third Flyrant. Other than that, I don't like paying a Harpy and Gargoyle tax. Note that in my area we play pretty much 0% Maelstrom missions, I can see them being a ton more valuable in that, but 10 gargoyles will be killed easily late in the game and coming back will have little impact. I'll be sticking with normal CAD full of FMCs, but I may add some Forge World fun!
Do you play that the MCs get intervening unit cover from Gants? I haven't checked to see if they need to be 25% obscured under 7th edition.
@luke: I did in 6th, but it hasn't come up in 7th at all, I'd have to check the wording. But, I buy barricades for my Bastion so I know the tyrants will have cover turn 1, after that they're too far ahead to ever get gant cover, and I usually rely on ruins/forests for cover
jifel wrote: Even though I'm a big fan of Deep Striking Rippers, I keep one unit of gants in my list for the sole purpose of dealing with Drop Pods. DP armies aren't very common here, but I can still bubble wrap my Bastion so that every bug in my army has a 2++ cover save except for a few gants. I don't recall jy2s exact list, but I would think that the Gargoyles could have been able to bubble wrap the Bastion. Against Drop Pods in Dawn of War, I will happily put my bastion all the way in the back of my DZ so I can properly block it off. After all, if they go first than I can assault any of their units that get close to my base...
However, I think that Skyblight is too many FMCs actually. For me, 4-5 is a magic number. The only lists I have written with Skyblight are just to include a third Flyrant. Other than that, I don't like paying a Harpy and Gargoyle tax. Note that in my area we play pretty much 0% Maelstrom missions, I can see them being a ton more valuable in that, but 10 gargoyles will be killed easily late in the game and coming back will have little impact. I'll be sticking with normal CAD full of FMCs, but I may add some Forge World fun!
Do you play that the MCs get intervening unit cover from Gants? I haven't checked to see if they need to be 25% obscured under 7th edition.
The wording says that the 25% is not needed, if you are even partially obscured then you are in cover. That said there is that note on it not working if the shot goes "over" it. How do you read this? You can't cover flyers? Can't cover from flyers? If the model is even slightly higher than the intervening one then no cover?
I know it hasnt changed much, but could you post the Hierophant's page as well? It would basically save me dropping the cash on the book just to have official rules for 1 model.
I know it hasnt changed much, but could you post the Hierophant's page as well? It would basically save me dropping the cash on the book just to have official rules for 1 model.
Thanks dude, jiffel was awesome enough to send them as well. Im just not willing to buy a book THAT expensive for a single page of rules for an expensive model that I may or may not have gotten from China.
Thanks dude, jiffel was awesome enough to send them as well. Im just not willing to buy a book THAT expensive for a single page of rules for an expensive model that I may or may not have gotten from China.
I know what you mean... I now have a Harridan and Malanthrope brood en route. I won't say where from, but the ETA is a few weeks :-)
jifel wrote: Even though I'm a big fan of Deep Striking Rippers, I keep one unit of gants in my list for the sole purpose of dealing with Drop Pods. DP armies aren't very common here, but I can still bubble wrap my Bastion so that every bug in my army has a 2++ cover save except for a few gants. I don't recall jy2s exact list, but I would think that the Gargoyles could have been able to bubble wrap the Bastion. Against Drop Pods in Dawn of War, I will happily put my bastion all the way in the back of my DZ so I can properly block it off. After all, if they go first than I can assault any of their units that get close to my base...
However, I think that Skyblight is too many FMCs actually. For me, 4-5 is a magic number. The only lists I have written with Skyblight are just to include a third Flyrant. Other than that, I don't like paying a Harpy and Gargoyle tax. Note that in my area we play pretty much 0% Maelstrom missions, I can see them being a ton more valuable in that, but 10 gargoyles will be killed easily late in the game and coming back will have little impact. I'll be sticking with normal CAD full of FMCs, but I may add some Forge World fun!
Do you play that the MCs get intervening unit cover from Gants? I haven't checked to see if they need to be 25% obscured under 7th edition.
The wording says that the 25% is not needed, if you are even partially obscured then you are in cover. That said there is that note on it not working if the shot goes "over" it. How do you read this? You can't cover flyers? Can't cover from flyers? If the model is even slightly higher than the intervening one then no cover?
My thinking on this is that if you can draw LOS to the lowest point of the target model (the entire bottom of the base) without the model being obscured by any intervening unit (or the spaces in between models in a unit of course) then there is no cover. A situation like this could occur if the firer is on the second or third level of ruins and the target model is a sufficient distance behind the screening unit. Otherwise I think you get it. In that event, I really think the Malanthrope is going to be a stud. Giving our entire army except the worthless screening unit 3+ cover is pretty dope
I'm curious as to which page that appears. It's been awhile since I read it. While I love my Tyranids I find that a very abusive misapplication of the rules for an unfair advantage as it seems the rules for area terrain have been greatly streamlined.
Anyways now that the BAO has debunked the current Tyranid meta I think we can go back to the drawing board for a fresh look... Exciting !
.
I give up, I will not be able to convince other fleets that the assault phase is where its at. Just to be clear the overall consensus on this thread is that gettinng into 
It only costs 10 points, I've never felt like I could have gotten better value from something else. 
fire 
's on the Stomp table!
Sounds like it was fun, and Nids showed themselves to be competitive. 
