So, after deciding I'm going to run Skyblight, I bought thirty gargoyles today. Two things:
1) Do people run toxic sacs on them? I understand that they can't use them and blinding venom, but two poison 4+ attacks on the assault makes them more than a tarpit against high toughness foes?
2) Are they the most fiddly Tyranid models to glue? Gluing thirty sets of arms made me nearly rage quit Warhammer!
That's kind of what I was thinking as well. Get a gaunt bubble-wrap going and just trap Draigo and friends in an endless lulz wave of termagaunts.
I will never forget that exact scenario playing out with waves of termagants spewing forth from a never-ending tervigon, I believe that Draigo&co killed 40 something of them ...and never got away. It was magical.
ictoabu wrote:So, after deciding I'm going to run Skyblight, I bought thirty gargoyles today. Two things:
1) Do people run toxic sacs on them? I understand that they can't use them and blinding venom, but two poison 4+ attacks on the assault makes them more than a tarpit against high toughness foes?
2) Are they the most fiddly Tyranid models to glue? Gluing thirty sets of arms made me nearly rage quit Warhammer!
Gargoyles are relatively easy to glue, just do one at a time due to the body/wing matchup ...they're not interchangeable.
Toxin is great if you expect high toughness and want results, but for a tarpit keep them stock. With toxin, they'll do great (terrible?) things to Marines and tougher. I normally keep them stock.
ictoabu wrote: So, after deciding I'm going to run Skyblight, I bought thirty gargoyles today. Two things:
1) Do people run toxic sacs on them? I understand that they can't use them and blinding venom, but two poison 4+ attacks on the assault makes them more than a tarpit against high toughness foes?
2) Are they the most fiddly Tyranid models to glue? Gluing thirty sets of arms made me nearly rage quit Warhammer!
Run them naked or with adrenal glands. Fleet and furious charge make them pretty reliable on the charge, and for the times you need poisoned attacks they come with blinding venom stock.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Hey guys, I need some input on a few things; tactics and general experience on just how far I can push a unit before it hits its limit and I start sending things on suicide missions that they just can't do.
Carnifexes I currently have 3 builds planned for my horde of Carnifexes; Some I have a decent idea of what I can use them for, others, I have no idea whatsoever. Coincidentally, if anyone can come up with another dedicated loadout for another 3 Carnifexes to run, I would love to hear it.
Anti-?-Standard Dakkafex, no real upgrades on it. Never used one before, so I am fairly iffy on just how much it can actually do vs a marine squad, light transports, and heavy armor.
Anti-Infantry- Dual Scything Talons, Bio-Plasma, Spine Banks, Thresher Scythe, and most likely Acid Blood, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration.
Anti-Tank- Scything Talons, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, perhaps even Bio-Plasma? Just how far can I push this for anti-tank, and just how many of these would I have to throw at hardened enemies like Baneblades, Monoliths, Landraiders, and some of the sturdier fortifications (I think they still can get up to AV15?)
Tervigons So, I have plenty of models now, but now I need to focus on the primary focus of what these Tervigons are going to be. The way I see it, these things need to be constantly pushing forward, and eventually I am going to have to come in contact with a squad or even enemy vehicles. So, what would you guys suggest as a durable loadout for anti-infantry and anti-vehicle use?
Tyrannofexes
So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
Honestly, I recommend both these units get the full magnet treatment. They seem to change tomuch with codex and meta changes to not go magnets.
A/T depends on how serious you want to get. If you know you will be needing to wreck AV15 fortifications or tearing in to Titans, then Claws are probably required. Otherwise I find the old Screamer-killer still does a real good job.
Scared to throw any MC's in there because of force weapons errywhurr.
So your issue is getting them out of the Land Raider. I think the best way to deal with a land raider is generally to ignore it. Especially for your list. If he wants to put 800 points into a land raider and score one objective with it, let him. Kill everything else, and score the other objectives.
If you want to kill it, I would suggest crones and Flyrants with E.Grubs. I think you should also drop a venom for a zoey as a warp charge battery / another source of warp lance. If that doesn't work for you I have a few other suggestions.
#1) Kamikaze MC. Something like a Hauspex or a single CFex with Crushing claws or a TFex with Crushing Claws and E.Grubs. The key is understanding that whatever you use to pop that Land Raider is going to die. You will have to bubble wrap it with something until its task is done. I suggest Gargoyles or Hormagaunts.
#2) Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Keep your flyrants solo, but take a squad of 3 Tyrant Guard, give them Crushing Claws, bubble wrap them. The same strategy as above. This only works once, and depends on your opponent not realizing they are a threat to his land Raider.
#3) Genestealers with A.G. Hit on 3's Rend on 6's Glance on 5's. So only 4/6 * 1/6 * 2/6 = 3.7% chance of glancing. So technically you are going to need 36 genestealers charging to have even odds of pulling this off. I would only take 1 unit, and I would count on charging multiple times. Infiltrate them forward with the front units in terrain, and conga-line back to a venom. If the first 4 are in ruins you have a 2+ cover for a bit. The advantage of genestealers, is that Draigo and the Paladins aren't going to want to charge them very much. Power weapons do nothing to them. They can bypass armor. Just make sure the rest of your army keeps the rest of his army occupied until the Genestealers have done their work.
#4) Tyranid Lord of War. Barbed Heridule, Harridan, and bio-titan all have the firepower to deal with land raiders and Draigo.
Yeah, Land Raiders are tough. More often than not, I attempt to control where their primary target it.
Typically a unit in a Land Raider is a tough, killy, melee unit. Their target isn't going to be gants, it'll be your MCs. I'd consider overloading MCs on one side of the board (hopefully far away from objectives). Send in a bait MC to either take on the LR as tag8833 suggested. If you take it down cool, but if you don't and the unit inside needs to disembark to deal with it let them do so. Feed them a Carnifex or an "expendable" MC. Once they've disembarked, use your mobility to leave them behind.
I don't think it's necessarily reliable, as you should destroy the LR in order to remove THEIR mobility, but it's an option.
I learned a lot, I would have definitely liked to have another Devourer Carnifex but that Stranglethorn one was nailing Warrior blobs left and right, he never missed.
Tomorrow I get to play an awesome 2500 game against a friend I havent seen in months, he's taking Deamons. Last time we played it was our old codex and Tyranids took the win, I dont know if it will be so clean this time around.
ictoabu wrote: So, after deciding I'm going to run Skyblight, I bought thirty gargoyles today. Two things:
1) Do people run toxic sacs on them? I understand that they can't use them and blinding venom
Why wouldn't they be able to use them and blinding venom?
Not 100% on this, but the Blinding Venom profile says "..a model can exchange all of it''s normal attacks to make a single blinding venom attack, which uses the following profile..." which is poisoned 6+ and Blind.
The Toxin sacs rule says it makes all their close combat attacks poisoned, and as it hasn't a number in brackets, the poisoned rule says "If no number is shown in brackets, the rule is Poisoned (4+). "
I read that as either poisoned 4+ attacks or one poisoned 6+ attack with Blind.
Fighting 2500pts of Khorne dominated Daemons in about two hours with a friend of mine, should be a lot of fun. He can literally field a sea of Bloodletters, he's got hundreds of Daemons...Going to shoot them off the board:
jy2 wrote: Another better investment instead of the Prime + 1 Guard (190-pts, right?) is to just field 4 separate zoanthropes. That's 4 separate units that your opponent would have to waste his firepower to potentially overkill (say you had 1 unit of devastators with 4 missile launchers. Would you want to waste that just to take out 1 zoanthrope or would your rather use them to fire at something else). That's also 4 separate beacons of 18" synapse that can spread out, kill tanks with Warp Blast, buff the army with other psychic powers and which provide 2 warp dice each.
As for shrikes, with your Apoc army, then it shouldn't be a problem. Have at it!
That is true, isn't it. I think I can add a couple more Zoanthropes down the road for rounding out my army. Who knows, I might just do a bit more planning for when I finish up this last little bit of my college career and start seeing you and the rest of the team more often Jim down at the BAO, NOVA, etc. Might decide to humor you and see if I can't set the record for most models and "Assistant Movement Staff" fielded during a tournament.
One bit of speculation before I head off to work; I do not know how most of the rest of you feel about them, but have we all but gotten rid of hope of using the Trygon tunnels for some surprise fun? I actually have been looking at them as a semi-viable way to get Pyrovores to work. Some Devilgaunts, etc, etc, pop in and hose light transports, blobs, etc, etc, and then stick 3 nice juicy templates in the neighborhood to mop up what is left, and also discourage assault, since you will most likely practically have to charge both units in such a small area.
If you do any of the West Coast tourneys, you should aim for the LVO. That has got to be our flagship GT.
As for trygon tunnels, I see it going very well with the Endless Swarm. The problem with the Endless Swarm is that it is quite slow. Trygon tunnels will give them an almost immediate way to reach objectives and threaten enemy units on the turn they come in.
SHUPPET wrote: Sorry about my last post jy2, was 4 am for me and I misinterpreted the tone of your post.
You are right, Cents are the most cost effective unit against us and play to all our weaknesses. I'm considering taking a Garg tarpit, but in MC heavy its a surefire target for anti-infantry weaponry and I worry it will get cut down to size before it can do its job. Also, 180 pts for 30 Gargs is 170 for an Exocrine.
No worries.
IMO, I would prefer 30 gargs over 1 exocrine in a TAC Tyranid list. With shrouded cover and perhaps Catalyst, they just may surprise you with their resiliency against anti-infantry flak.
Since gate got moved to Santic, is Tiggy still the force multiplier that he once was in 6th? I was thinking Coteaz would be the preferred escort. The only Centstar player I know takes 2 Land Raiders, 2 centurion squads, and Draigo, and that has been his list for years. I haven't played him for logistical reasons, and because he only plays 2000 points and Kill points, so he has a fixed advantage especially against tyranids. I figured I would try him once I got up to 3 Crones and an Exocrine, or bring my Eldar allies. I figure he can't be a terribly good player if he has to put that many restrictions on his games.
Also, assault with FMC's isn't a terribly viable option anymore. You've got to land for a full turn before you assault. Better off vector striking and throwing warp lances / general wounds at them. 7th has really changed the way we have to play our FMCs.
Well, being Lvl 3 with the ability to re-roll psychic powers, he is much better at fishing for powers that you want. Also, don't under-estimate his fighting prowess. With a force stave, he is hitting at S6 with a force weapon. He ID'd several of my Necron wraiths and my Destroyer Lord in 1 combat before. Then again, he got for his powers Misfortune, Prescience and Forewarning (thus, giving the Centurionstar 2+/4++ in combat with my wraiths). So yeah, he is still a great force-multiplier. Of course you could go for both Tiggy and Coteaz to make the unit even more dangerous. Then we'd be talking about a true deathstar.
Honestly, I never really played my FMC's as assault units, even back in 6th. I used to run them more as gunboats so the change in 7th won't really affect my playstyle too much (with the exception of the Vector Strikes). Just make sure to take Electroshock grubs on the MC's that can take it. If you manage to get Warp Lance, then that's great, though personally, I would never rely on that "tactic". Yeah, 7th has made our FMC's more survivable but also less capable of delivering the performances that they used to back in 6th.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: What would you guys consider to be the best solution for dealing with Draigo and some paladins in a Land Raider?
Scared to throw any MC's in there because of force weapons errywhurr.
Go MSU and run a lot of units. Instead of 3x20 termagants, go 6x10 gants. Split up the carnifexes into 3x1 units (instead of a 1x3 carnistar). Deathstar armies are limited in their ability to deal with multiple units. That's what you want to do. Present them with a lot of targets and force them to choose. They can't be everywhere at once! Just make sure you spread out your units (and also to spread out the objectives when placing them) to deny his paladins the multi-assault.
Iechine wrote: Had my game against Necrons, heres how it went!
I learned a lot, I would have definitely liked to have another Devourer Carnifex but that Stranglethorn one was nailing Warrior blobs left and right, he never missed.
Tomorrow I get to play an awesome 2500 game against a friend I havent seen in months, he's taking Deamons. Last time we played it was our old codex and Tyranids took the win, I dont know if it will be so clean this time around.
Rough game. Necrons are a weird army to play against. On paper, their non-extreme builds don't look that scary, but they are an army that relies just as much on army synergy as our bugs. I've surprised a lot of people even with my more casual Necron army (the Fun-crons). They''re an army that is easy to under-estimate, but Necrons can be quite good.
Iechine wrote: Fighting 2500pts of Khorne dominated Daemons in about two hours with a friend of mine, should be a lot of fun. He can literally field a sea of Bloodletters, he's got hundreds of Daemons...Going to shoot them off the board:
Shooting is definitely the way to go against Khorne daemons. Screening a la gargoyles helps as well. I think you will do ok against a Khorne list with the army you have right now.
1. Our FMCs still make awesome gunboats. So far I feel the assault nerf hasn't affected their effectiveness at all. Against armies like Tau, I used to never make it close enough to assault. Now, I have more turns of shooting.
A second thought Ive been having: Shrikes. I feel like they might actually be a good unit now that everything scores. You drop OS and from a 4+ to 5+ save, but you get a much faster synapse unit... I'm thinking Shrikes may be a pretty good option.
I haven't really looked so I'm not sure if this was discussed yet, but is Skyblight Swarm still worth it to take regarding the scoring changes of 7th edition? What do standard, competitive army lists look like now? I haven't been keeping up since 7th edition dropped.
I haven't really looked so I'm not sure if this was discussed yet, but is Skyblight Swarm still worth it to take regarding the scoring changes of 7th edition? What do standard, competitive army lists look like now? I haven't been keeping up since 7th edition dropped.
Yes, it pretty much always will be. It just isn't the no-brainer it was in 6th. Several other formations that Tyranids have access to are very good. See Living Artillery node, Endless swarm, and Skyblight; they still very much our stand out formations.
Roxor is right although it's worth mentioning WHY it's not as good, so that you aren't just doing what the most recent person to post tells you to do in regards to taking Skyblight or not.
Skyblight got worse in 7th due to the fact that our FMCs got worse. For starters, Vektor Strike got worse for all of them except Flyrant for whom it is still a very NICHE utility (good V TEQ now). In no way does that make up for the hit Crones took.
On top of this, FMCs like Flyrant who pay a lot for WS7 and their attacks, can no longer reliably glide into combat (there is ways to make it happen, or take the risk, but it's an undeniable nerf). It was a really good way to squeeze a lot more damage out of your lists in final turns.
Then, every single unit gets scoring in 7th. Except for anything in the air. Even transports score. This indirectly hurts when anything else you could take instead got much better.
On the note of scoring, Skyblight Gargs are still good, but were better in 6th when they were the only Objective Secured units in the game. Now they are just FOC swapped to count as troops.
This compared to a ground list, which got largely better with the effectiveness of Zoeys actually loving the Psyker changes, Master of Ambush being huge, and being able to easily integrate Carnifexes cohesively, who are not only a good unit to synergise with both these buffs but are also a great way to make up for the massive board control Smash nerf (which affected both builds).
Skyblight doesn't suck though. Not at all, although you can do much better with Nids IMO. It's also kind of cheesy in the sense that you will lose to anyone who knows you are bringing it, p easy to counter. It's also a pretty inflexible build, and people don't enjoy playing against Flyer spam in general, which is the only way Skyblight is worth it. After all the nerfs it received it no longer dominates scoring like it once did, in fact it struggles to compete on this front. Winning through dominating the skies with 7-8 versatile anti-infantry/anti-tank FMCs and focusing anything with any sort of AA capability, will be the best way to victory with that formation.
Stand out formation is hands down Living Artillery.
That's very good news to hear considering I basically have both formations, model-wise. I was planning on making two separate lists, one for Skyblight and the other for Living Artillery Node.
Journeyman351 wrote: That's very good news to hear considering I basically have both formations, model-wise. I was planning on making two separate lists, one for Skyblight and the other for Living Artillery Node.
I like them both, but with Living Artillery, I can modify the list easier, because the Formation is a smaller chunk of the total cost.
Add to that, the fact that if you aren't taking Skyblight for max Flyrants and Crones, then competitively there is no point in taking it at all. The extra air saturation is the only reason for this formation at the moment, otherwise you are better off just taking a regular list of Flyers and having more control, E.G. Crones instead of Harpys.
SHUPPET wrote: Add to that, the fact that if you aren't taking Skyblight for max Flyrants and Crones, then competitively there is no point in taking it at all. The extra air saturation is the only reason for this formation at the moment, otherwise you are better off just taking a regular list of Flyers and having more control, E.G. Crones instead of Harpys.
Skyblight is an almost inflexible build in 7th.
I'm not sure where your Skyblight hate come from Shuppet. Is it something that you have a lot of experience with, or are you just bucking the trend of Skyblight being the hotness for Tournament Tyranids? Is it any better to jump on the living artillery band wagon?
Skyblight took some nerfs, especially in the form of vector strikes, but it got some serious buffs as well. Armies that had trouble dealing with air before, now will have much more trouble. I used to be able to run 4 FMCs in mid level friendly games in 6th. In 7th, 2 FMC's and I'm labeled a "Power Gamer". The only game of 7th where I ran 4 FMC, I killed a Imperial Knight on turn 1 for first blood, and my opponent rage quit. I've only lost 3 Flyrants in all the games of 7th I've played so far. 1 was to perils, 1 due to landing on turn 5 to score an objective, and only 1 was killed in the air. The survivability buff of only a single grounding check a turn is amazing. The net effect of the changes of 7th is that Harpies do less damage, Crones do less damage, but Flyrants make up for it by still doing damage on turn 3, turn 4, and turn 5. Add to that the meta shift due to the nerf to Interceptor aka Quadguns are leaving many players without a viable anti-air strategy. Burstides and Skyrays can still pluck our FMC's out of the sky, but meta shifts are indicating more Ion tides. Wave Serpent spam will still kill skyblight, but not quite as fast as it used to.
As far as Skyblight vs taking just the same units in a normal combined arms detachment, you are kinda missing the point of Skyblight. The FMCs are great, but the Gargoyles win you the game. Gargoyles are such a superior troop option when compared to other Tyranid troops. In 7th with Maelstrom missions making an impact, mobile scoring is more important than ever. Sure, you have the same killing power if you take Skyblight as a normal CAD, but you are going to win many, many fewer games.
Skyblight sucks because it is GW telling us how to build a list, not because 7th edition nerfed it into non-competitiveness. Skyblight sucks because it is hailed and reviled as the only way to play Tyranids competitively, not because it isn't a damn effective way to play Tyranids competitively.
Very good points about the FMCs survivability. I won't even disagree with them.
The Gargs however not so much. Yeah they are our best troop option - hands down. Probably the only ones playable on their own merits. Is it worth trading off the power difference between two Harpys instead of two Crones? Very very unlikely, you are better off just taking min troops and a bunch of good units if you aren't using it for the extra FOC slots, rather than having to pay tax for good scoring units, and still needing to take your min size troops anyway. Obj Scored is no longer unique to them and you can get much cheaper deepstriking objective secured units in Rippers who don't even need to worry about Synapse .
I don't know what's with the insinuations that I'm bandwagoning with Living Artillery, and against Skyblight, or whatever.
I've been speaking it's praise for literally as long as you have.
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
I've been using a brood of 3 Warriors in my Living Artillery formation and they've been really surprising.
They never leave cover, they snipe with a Barbed Strangler (which is pretty decent for such a cheap weapon, especially since you can re-roll the scatter thanks to the formation), and they are surprisingly hard to kill.
They are now my preferred back-field Synapse unit, and although they don't have Objective Secured they still score and can helpfully keep any small Termagant units spawned by the Tervigon in line (allowing me to take the Termagants away from the Tervigon, in case it explodes).
My other Troops choices are just a Tervigon with Egrubs and 30 regular Termagants. It works fine for 1k games. At 1850, you'll probably need something a little more.
I too take three for the exocrine formation. They generally do something worthwhile and are like terminators to small arms fire (you are focusing high strength weaponry down anyway) as far as troops go they are decent.
However in context to the rest of the army is rather spend as little points as possible on troops (personal choice). I just take min size squads of what's needed for FOC / formations. I.e while a squad of 4 warriors might put in work if you play them well, a dakkafex is doing more every single game
On top of that, while I admitted Skybliggt was a strong build yester-edition, I've never been a fan of how linear and stupid design it is, and I'm quite happy to see that it's no longer the go-to build this edition except for people who LIKE having their entire list written for them. It's not hate, it's me observing the capabilities of different units and builds from a competitive standpoint. It certainly isn't bandwagoning, and if it is, I'm the damn driver of the Wagon lol as evidenced here:
SHUPPET wrote: Is it worth trading off the power difference between two Harpys instead of two Crones?
The power difference between Harpies and Crones is just the difference between Spore Bombs and Haywire missiles. The Drool Cannon is no better than a TL Barbed Strangler. It is less versatile, but does ignore cover. The Spore Bomb vs Haywire missiles is less cut and dry. Spore Bombs are good against infantry, while Haywire Missiles are good against Vehicles. I prefer haywire missile, because I am weak against Vehicles elsewhere, but you are saving 20 points. I've experimented with giving Harpies Cluster Spines, but don't think that is worth it.
SHUPPET wrote: Obj Scored is no longer unique to them and you can get much cheaper deepstriking objective secured units in Rippers who don't even need to worry about Synapse .
I think the ripper fad is not long for this world. It is created by theory hammer, and non-representative outlying experiences. Show me a Tyranid batrep where they out perform 10 termigants and I will be impressed. They certainly never have in my games, and Team O-comp who has been perpetuating the assertion that rippers are a viable unit just posted a batrep where they wildly under performed compared to gaunts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyBGvFJEw0 There was a guy a while back who used an Aegis to block line of sight to them, but that was in 6th when you could deploy an Aegis at midfield. To use them effectively, you are dependent on scatter, terrain, and your enemy lacking S6 shooting or assault to dedicate to their removal. Any one of those things goes poorly, and you should have brought gaunts.
I don't like Rippers either I was just saying that you can cover their role. Maybe you are right, OS Gary's respawning is good, I just don't think it's worth it
Everyone is weak v Vehicles, it's the main handicap of Tyranids. So while you can compare Harpys and Crones on paper, in practice you are making your list weaker. And I just don't see it being worth the Gargs, although I'll admit it's a tradeoff, it might be a more balanced one if Crones weren't crucial to skyforce Nids.
In regards to Harpies vs Crones, I think the main thing to keep in mind is that the Crone is more or less strictly a damage dealer while the Harpy is more of an assault support unit. It has a pinning weapon by default which gives it a chance (albeit small) of shutting down overwatch and can also potentially create Spore Mines soak up overwatch for other critters. Also, its Sonic Screech ability pairs very nicely with Blinding Venom (and Acid Blood if you incidentally have something with it) and is a huge help in taking down things like Knights that otherwise get to swing before Carnifexes or similar armor-cracker.
I do agree though that the Crone is better in an air-force list, but I think the Harpy has a place in more combined arms lists.
On a different note, I had a rather fun Maelstrom game this week. Since our group has become a bit swamped with somewhat cut-throat lists, I brought an extremely fluffy themed list just for giggles and a change of pace:
I ended up against a Necron player running an unbound list with 4 Monoliths, a Destroyer Lord, (normal) C'tan Shard, a Spyder, and a few Scarab Swarms. Needless to say, I failed to take down any of his monoliths but I ended up winning on Victory Points thanks to all the deepstriking units hopping on objectives. The Red Terror sadly didn't get a chance to swallow anything of importance whole, as once I showed my opponent what his special rule did he sent his Destroyer Lord to the other side of the table via monolith portal.
I have to say though, I actually kinda like the Red Terror as a Warlord. He is more survivable than he initially appears thanks to his ability to go to ground and his 3-wound bodyguards to Look-out sir! wounds away to (he ended the game having taken only one wound, the Raveners soaked up the rest).
Strat_N8 wrote: In regards to Harpies vs Crones, I think the main thing to keep in mind is that the Crone is more or less strictly a damage dealer while the Harpy is more of an assault support unit. It has a pinning weapon by default which gives it a chance (albeit small) of shutting down overwatch and can also potentially create Spore Mines soak up overwatch for other critters. Also, its Sonic Screech ability pairs very nicely with Blinding Venom (and Acid Blood if you incidentally have something with it) and is a huge help in taking down things like Knights that otherwise get to swing before Carnifexes or similar armor-cracker.
I do agree though that the Crone is better in an air-force list, but I think the Harpy has a place in more combined arms lists.
On a different note, I had a rather fun Maelstrom game this week. Since our group has become a bit swamped with somewhat cut-throat lists, I brought an extremely fluffy themed list just for giggles and a change of pace:
I ended up against a Necron player running an unbound list with 4 Monoliths, a Destroyer Lord, (normal) C'tan Shard, a Spyder, and a few Scarab Swarms. Needless to say, I failed to take down any of his monoliths but I ended up winning on Victory Points thanks to all the deepstriking units hopping on objectives. The Red Terror sadly didn't get a chance to swallow anything of importance whole, as once I showed my opponent what his special rule did he sent his Destroyer Lord to the other side of the table via monolith portal.
I have to say though, I actually kinda like the Red Terror as a Warlord. He is more survivable than he initially appears thanks to his ability to go to ground and his 3-wound bodyguards to Look-out sir! wounds away to (he ended the game having taken only one wound, the Raveners soaked up the rest).
Need to play around with him more...
Nice! I would have used Zoeys instead of Hive Guard, but that's just me. Much love for "Hungry, hungry Rippers!" I'd guess the best possible Warlord trait is the "brain eater" one.
pinecone77 wrote: Nice! I would have used Zoeys instead of Hive Guard, but that's just me. Much love for "Hungry, hungry Rippers!" I'd guess the best possible Warlord trait is the "brain eater" one.
Hehe, well as I said it was a themed list. I was going for end-stage feeder organisms + hive security organisms (i.e. Tervigons and Hive Guard) with the Red Terror thrown in so I'd have some sort of Warlord (and he does kinda fit with the Haruspex and Mawlocs as another "feeder" beast). If I remember right I tried to roll on Strategic for the infiltration/outflank trait, but got the stealth-in-ruins one instead. I think if I were to use him as my Warlord again I'd probably go for personal instead, as there isn't anything on that chart that won't benefit him in some way.
On the other hand, getting Synaptic Lynchpin or Mindeater would be rather comical on him...
I had a fun game with Salamander drop pods on Tuesday. I ran 1000 points, I had a Necron ally who ran 1000 points, and the Salamanders brought 2000 points. I dealt with the Space marines on my side of the table, and was trading gaunts for marines mainly. Easily winning. However my Necron ally was killing marines nearly as fast, and he wasn't losing anything at all. An annihilation barge took a melta command squad up the tail pipe, and made all of its jink saves. A bunch of tac squads with flamers pile 20 wounds onto a big group of necron warriors. He makes 12 saves, 6 resurrections, and then uses his ghost ark to bring the squad back up to full. By the end of Turn 5 the Salamander player had just 4 drop pods and the Salamander Chaplin left on the table having lost about 65 marines and 4 drop pods. I had lost 30 guants, 1 Tyranid warrior, a biovore, and a Carnifex. Meanwhile my ally was down a total of 4 Necron warriors, and a single Hull point on an Annihilation barge.
Necrons are scary survivable in 7th. If you get in their range, and don't assault them, they will laugh off your shots, and destroy you.
tag8833 wrote: Necrons are scary survivable in 7th. If you get in their range, and don't assault them, they will laugh off your shots, and destroy you.
I play Necron's also and against them quite a bit. They are infuriating to shoot at normally, but with res orb and ghost ark support (and in cover) they are just plain invincible!
However.. you charge them with something that can reliably win combat by 3-4 and they are totally screwed!
BlaxicanX wrote: Sounds like a frustrating game for the Salamanders player, lol.
He was winning in points until turn 4, so it was actually a fairly close game, despite being nearly tabled. In the bottom of 4 we took a 1 point lead, and then in our turn 5, we went up by 4. He had 18 OS units on the table including 6 drop pods.
I must say, Tau is probably the hardest army for my Tyranids to face, especially one with so much skyfire shooting. I actually have a losing record against Tau with my bugs last edition (back before Skyblight was out). Can I break my losing streak against Tau? Find out next week.
I must say, Tau is probably the hardest army for my Tyranids to face, especially one with so much skyfire shooting. I actually have a losing record against Tau with my bugs last edition (back before Skyblight was out). Can I break my losing streak against Tau? Find out next week.
It does look like a tough fight. But in your favor, Mawloc...and Biovores should be star players vs Tau. I am looking forward to seeing how it goes.
jy2 wrote: Ok, guys, here's a preview of my very 1st 7E Tyranid battle. The batrep should be coming out next week.
1850 Sky Fleet Pandora ...
2x Biovores
Why did you run the Biovores in a squad instead of solo?
I heard on the Frontline gaming podcast that they are houseruling away the rule that makes blasts hit all levels of ruins. That would be a significant disadvantage to you in this game, are you playing by that house rule? I've played tons of games with squads of 3 Broadsides spread out on 3 different levels of terrain, ending that shenanigans was one of thing things I liked best about 7th.
Do you have thoughts on them making that rule change for the BAO and LVO? I don't like it at all obviously, and don't like how most of their house rules and missions seemed designed to save the gunline from the nerf's of 7th. Do you think these rules are just to ease the transition into 7th, or are they going to try to cultivate a distinct meta from the rest of 7th?
jy2 wrote: Ok, guys, here's a preview of my very 1st 7E Tyranid battle. The batrep should be coming out next week.
1850 Sky Fleet Pandora ...
2x Biovores
Why did you run the Biovores in a squad instead of solo?
I heard on the Frontline gaming podcast that they are houseruling away the rule that makes blasts hit all levels of ruins. That would be a significant disadvantage to you in this game, are you playing by that house rule? I've played tons of games with squads of 3 Broadsides spread out on 3 different levels of terrain, ending that shenanigans was one of thing things I liked best about 7th.
Do you have thoughts on them making that rule change for the BAO and LVO? I don't like it at all obviously, and don't like how most of their house rules and missions seemed designed to save the gunline from the nerf's of 7th. Do you think these rules are just to ease the transition into 7th, or are they going to try to cultivate a distinct meta from the rest of 7th?
I ran biovores as a unit because 1) I think they are slightly more accurate that way, 2) saves me an easy VP if the opponent gets a Destroy an Enemy Unit for his Maelstrom objective and 3) I'm used to running them together. But I can see the merit of running them separately.
I actually haven't heard of Frontline's ruling on blasts, but I gotta say that I agree with them. That has always been the case in previous editions - that blasts hit just 1 level of a building. Playing it as hitting everything in all levels of ruins is just plain stupid. Imagine how stupid thunderfire cannons, wyverns, thudd guns, manticores and other multi-blast units become. This is just plain sloppy rules writing by GW. So no, I don't go by pure RAW in this case. So what if your opponent stacks his unit on different levels of ruins? That is actually a disadvantage to him as it limits the movement of his unit. You can take advantage of terrain to try to deny them LOS to shoot at some of your units and they will be less inclined to move and give up their "favorite" spots.
With regards to some of the rules changes to the BAO/LVO/Nova/etc. This is why they make some of the rulings/FAQ's the way they do:
There are a number of criterias TO's tend to look at when making FAQ's for their tournaments. While they try to follow as closely to GWRAW as they can, sometimes they do deviate for the following reasons:
1. What is fun for their attendees. Sometimes, they will rule against something if they think it will make it an unpleasant unexperience for their attendees. Examples include the re-rollable 2+ saves and now bargelords being able to join other units. Or allowing Forgeworld and limited Lords of War units.
2. Practicality. Sometimes, they will make FAQ's with the intent of making the game run more smoothly. Examples include flyers having a 180 degree vertical firing arc, as most of the complaints that came up in their tournaments (and other's tournaments) was the very subjective debate on whether flyers had LOS to particular units. Also, another example was back in 6th where they ruled a unit that is scoring is also a denial unit because that argument came up all the time and made for some very mad players when they found out that their units couldn't contest and lose the game because of it.
3. What they feel is RAI (rules-as-intended). Example here would be allowing an IC to attach to an infiltrating unit (or letting a unit infiltrate with an IC who has that rule). Another example would be to not allow a vehicle unit to join other units or barrages/blasts only hitting 1 level of a ruins.
jy2 wrote: I actually haven't heard of Frontline's ruling on blasts, but I gotta say that I agree with them. That has always been the case in previous editions - that blasts hit just 1 level of a building. Playing it as hitting everything in all levels of ruins is just plain stupid. Imagine how stupid thunderfire cannons, wyverns, thudd guns, manticores and other multi-blast units become. This is just plain sloppy rules writing by GW. So no, I don't go by pure RAW in this case. So what if your opponent stacks his unit on different levels of ruins? That is actually a disadvantage to him as it limits the movement of his unit. You can take advantage of terrain to try to deny them LOS to shoot at some of your units and they will be less inclined to move and give up their "favorite" spots.
I think the sloppy rules are how blasts / templates deal with terrain levels to begin with. 7th seems to me to be a tightening of the rules. I started to write an extended rant about it, but this isn't the place for that sort of thing.
I do want to generally disagree with your reasoning. Vector strike has always been D3 + 1 hits, should we house rule that back? What about Jink granting a 5+, should we keep that intact? If we can house rule things that have "always been the case" the rules are never going to change in a substantial way.
Also, in response to blast / template shooters like biovores, harpies, Crones, Flyrants, Zoeys becoming more powerful by changing the rules, the opposite is also an argument to accept the new rules. Units like broadsides, Devastators, Longfangs benefit from the current rules more than template shooters would benefit from the new rules, so the argument for the house rule is essentially saying "I think broadsides should be made more powerful while biovores are made less powerful" It is a meta shift. The sort of thing that rules changes are all about. Resisting such a meta change seems... odd. And especially odd that they would resist it when it comes to certain metas (gunline), but not others (MCs, Vehicles). And especially odd when it is a meta change to protect a play-style that is generally not very dynamic, and not very fun to play against.
I gotta agree with tag, very strongly as well. Sure some thing like unlimited combined Arms Detachment make sense to rule against - it affects practically everyone equally, and nobody wants a practically FOC less game built around winning by spending the most money buying 8 copies of the 1 unit to win. Avoiding some things makes sense.
House ruling crap like levels of blasts because it makes Biovores and Wyverns stronger against certain armies is pretty pathetic however, as is doing it because that's the way it used to be. Demons got way stronger with summoning and they never used to have that - houserule out that, scoring Wave Serpents, let's stop flamers hitting units inside open-topped as its too strong vs Dark Eldar, let's just give Barrage weapons back pinning, wait why aren't we playing 6th?
You take the good with the bad. Sorry Tau everyone else has to. At least your skimmers got a bit more desirable again.
That's fine. My opinion and Frontline's are houserules anyways, and I'm sure not everyone will agree. Personally, I don't mind playing it either ways, though I really dislike the fact that blasts are getting more and more powerful, especially barrages. First, they (barrages) have become sniping weapons and now they affect everything underneath as well, even on multi-level ruins?
BTW, I look at the different rules independently. Yes, vector-strike got nerfed. Yes, Smash got nerfed. Jink saves got better (to a degree). So what? None of those are getting modified by the BAO because those changes are as clear as day. However, the changes to the rules for blasts are a lot more subtle, much like the changes to the rules for scoring/denial back in 6th. You're going to catch a lot of people with their pants down with how the new rules have changed and that is going to make for some unpleasant gaming experiences in tournament play. In any case, I can see why Frontline is doing what they did and I can't say I blame them. If you don't like that ruling, then just play it as pure RAW at your LGS. If you are thinking about attending the BAO/LVO/any of Frontline's tourneys, then petition Reece (Reecius here on dakka) and just let him know that you don't agree with the changes. The BAO/LVOFAQ's aren't set in stone and they can change.
House ruling crap like levels of blasts because it makes Biovores and Wyverns stronger against certain armies is pretty pathetic however, as is doing it because that's the way it used to be. Demons got way stronger with summoning and they never used to have that - houserule out that, scoring Wave Serpents, let's stop flamers hitting units inside open-topped as its too strong vs Dark Eldar, let's just give Barrage weapons back pinning, wait why aren't we playing 6th?
Feel free to do so when you are the TO of your own tournament.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just FYI, but the blasts were a non-issue in my battle. My opponent never tiered his broadsides on multiple levels of a ruins and I actually never fired my biovores at them.
House ruling crap like levels of blasts because it makes Biovores and Wyverns stronger against certain armies is pretty pathetic however, as is doing it because that's the way it used to be. Demons got way stronger with summoning and they never used to have that - houserule out that, scoring Wave Serpents, let's stop flamers hitting units inside open-topped as its too strong vs Dark Eldar, let's just give Barrage weapons back pinning, wait why aren't we playing 6th?
Feel free to do so when you are the TO of your own tournament.
Nah, that would be terrible. You clearly missed that these were sarcastic theoretical changes aimed at showing the folly of the implementation of such house rules designed to overrule changes to a certain aspect of the game strictly to keep things as "they once were" or to keep things from getting stronger in game, without doing it to every single one of these changes at once. Leading to the conclusion that you would just be playing 6th anyway. Tailoring rule set changes due to opinions on things like that is without a doubt defined as tailoring, which is ok if you are going to do it everywhere and rebalance things in desperate need of it, but just house-ruling against the blast buff to ruinraiding really does seem to benefit specific lists more than others, most specifically the type of list dominant all of last edition.
It's a bad houserule, and since the topic was brought up I shared an opinion on it .
Opinions will differ as to the degree of a houserule. One may think bad, but others will think good. I for one, don't want to see a wyvern/TFC firing into ruins with 4 blast markers, only to have a sub-100-pt unit hit with 8-16 blasts just because it is a multi-level ruin. And then the time it takes to resolve that, especially if you are running multiple wyverns/TFC's/whatever. My goodness! Now it becomes a time issue in tournament play as well.
It's a good houserule, especially for a timed event where people are paying money to go to, but to each their own.
Mm time saving rule changes I can see easily justifiable as well, you didn't mention that as a reason in your original post and I didn't consider it, as such I went off the reasoning you did list which was that it makes it too strong and that it always was the other way. The first is good reasoning for a houserule, if in conjunction with a bunch of similar houserules not just one directly aimed at a single aspect of a few armies, leaving it quite an unfair ruling whether justified or not. The second line of reasoning you mentioned however I think is pretty counterproductive to say the least lol.
Oh well, doesn't affect me. Hoping that sort of stuff doesn't catch on though.
jy2 wrote: That's fine. My opinion and Frontline's are houserules anyways, and I'm sure not everyone will agree. Personally, I don't mind playing it either ways, though I really dislike the fact that blasts are getting more and more powerful, especially barrages. First, they (barrages) have become sniping weapons and now they affect everything underneath as well, even on multi-level ruins?
I didn't mean to come down negatively on your contribution. I was mainly confused by the house rule, and thought that you might have a little insight since I know that you have a personal relationship with the Frontline Gaming crowd.
jy2 wrote: If you are thinking about attending the BAO/LVO/any of Frontline's tourneys, then petition Reece (Reecius here on dakka) and just let him know that you don't agree with the changes. The BAO/LVOFAQ's aren't set in stone and they can change.
I'll be at LVO, and I'll drop him a note that I disagree. But, I figure Frontline's FAQ are generally fairly minimal, and usually the result of overwhelming feedback. For instance the 2+ rerollable was overwhelming unpopular and game breaking long before they decided to step in and nerf it. I was confused that there would be a similar level of need to nerf blast weapons. It is such a minor issue when compared to 2+ rerolls.
jy2 wrote: Feel free to do so when you are the TO of your own tournament.
I'm as close to a TO as we have in my parts. My first choice is to pick one of the big tourneys and use their FAQ's for my local GTs. It isn't worth it for me to abandon BAP/LVO rules for such a minor issue as blasts. I'm going to start playtesting their missions shortly. My intelligence and experience is limited, and I defer to Frontline Gaming as a source of greater wisdom, thus the reason I'm so confused when they make a decision that doesn't make sense to me. Your comment about turn speed is very resonate with me. Game speed is the number one challenge to non-tournament players who might play in one of my GTs. It is not uncommon for me to play locals in 3 1/2 hour games. I got one game in 5 hours last night because my opponent was very chatty, I ran a very high model count army, and we played a very precise, very by-the-rules game (spacing my gaunts 2" apart) with 12 separate mysterious rivers and a number of rules discussions. I understand the need to change rules to speed up the game.
I must say I don't think making Blasts hit less units significantly speeds up the game at all, no more so than doing it for any other weapon type and I don't think it justifies the focused nerf towards it. Just seems like a holdover from 6th and a testament to the gun line players having a lot of trouble adapting their 6th ed army investments into 7th.
Does their "fix" stop hitting units under floors of ruins entirely though? If so that's not a minor tweak but a massive change. The new rules make hiding small scoring units impossible from barrage. I don't think this was a side effect but very much intended.
Also did they go on to "fix" barrage units firing up through floors? I see more units of artillery underneath floors then enemies hiding, if arty can shoot up through some floors it would be stupid to stop them from hitting units under them IMO.
SHUPPET wrote: Mm time saving rule changes I can see easily justifiable as well, you didn't mention that as a reason in your original post and I didn't consider it, as such I went off the reasoning you did list which was that it makes it too strong and that it always was the other way. The first is good reasoning for a houserule, if in conjunction with a bunch of similar houserules not just one directly aimed at a single aspect of a few armies, leaving it quite an unfair ruling whether justified or not. The second line of reasoning you mentioned however I think is pretty counterproductive to say the least lol.
Oh well, doesn't affect me. Hoping that sort of stuff doesn't catch on though.
I didn't really think about it until I made that post. I was reminded of it when I thought about the player who brought 9 thudd guns with him to the last LVO tournament. That's 36 blasts he was firing each turn! In any case, I kind of wandered, but my point is that it does take time to resolve multiple blasts. Add in the fact that it can hit multiple levels and now the time increases even more, especially if you factor in Look-Out-Sirs from characters that the blasts might have hit.
jy2 wrote: That's fine. My opinion and Frontline's are houserules anyways, and I'm sure not everyone will agree. Personally, I don't mind playing it either ways, though I really dislike the fact that blasts are getting more and more powerful, especially barrages. First, they (barrages) have become sniping weapons and now they affect everything underneath as well, even on multi-level ruins?
I didn't mean to come down negatively on your contribution. I was mainly confused by the house rule, and thought that you might have a little insight since I know that you have a personal relationship with the Frontline Gaming crowd.
I actually didn't know about it until you mentioned it, but I can kind of see why they would make this rules changes. Tournaments have done it before for the reasons I've stated earlier. Some of the rules changes they made in the past include flyers having 180 degree vertical arcs, scoring units also being denying (back in 6th), IC's being able to infiltrate with a unit (and vice versa) even though one or the other does not have the Infiltrate USR, how to roll for your Warlord traits and re-rollable 2+'s becoming 2+/4+.
jy2 wrote: If you are thinking about attending the BAO/LVO/any of Frontline's tourneys, then petition Reece (Reecius here on dakka) and just let him know that you don't agree with the changes. The BAO/LVOFAQ's aren't set in stone and they can change.
I'll be at LVO, and I'll drop him a note that I disagree. But, I figure Frontline's FAQ are generally fairly minimal, and usually the result of overwhelming feedback. For instance the 2+ rerollable was overwhelming unpopular and game breaking long before they decided to step in and nerf it. I was confused that there would be a similar level of need to nerf blast weapons. It is such a minor issue when compared to 2+ rerolls.
Cool. BAOFAQ's aren't set in stone. They will make changes due to more play-testing, exit polls from tournament attendees or just by someone giving a well-thought out excerpt about why something should or shouldn't be.
jy2 wrote: Feel free to do so when you are the TO of your own tournament.
I'm as close to a TO as we have in my parts. My first choice is to pick one of the big tourneys and use their FAQ's for my local GTs. It isn't worth it for me to abandon BAP/LVO rules for such a minor issue as blasts. I'm going to start playtesting their missions shortly. My intelligence and experience is limited, and I defer to Frontline Gaming as a source of greater wisdom, thus the reason I'm so confused when they make a decision that doesn't make sense to me. Your comment about turn speed is very resonate with me. Game speed is the number one challenge to non-tournament players who might play in one of my GTs. It is not uncommon for me to play locals in 3 1/2 hour games. I got one game in 5 hours last night because my opponent was very chatty, I ran a very high model count army, and we played a very precise, very by-the-rules game (spacing my gaunts 2" apart) with 12 separate mysterious rivers and a number of rules discussions. I understand the need to change rules to speed up the game.
Also, you can modify the BAO rules/FAQ's to fit your tournaments. The guys at Frontline even encourage it because every locale/meta is slightly different. Tailor it to fit the needs of your local players. In a ways, Reece and the various TO's try to create their FAQ's according to what they feel is a more national meta. However, they also tailor their FAQ's to a degree to make it a little more friendly/encouraging to slightly newer players who might not know the rules as well. However, they can't satisfy everyone and there will be people who will disagree. So just let them know if you don't agree, and if you want to use their rules as a guideline for your own tournaments, feel free to modify it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: Does their "fix" stop hitting units under floors of ruins entirely though? If so that's not a minor tweak but a massive change. The new rules make hiding small scoring units impossible from barrage. I don't think this was a side effect but very much intended.
Also did they go on to "fix" barrage units firing up through floors? I see more units of artillery underneath floors then enemies hiding, if arty can shoot up through some floors it would be stupid to stop them from hitting units under them IMO.
I believe their ruling is that you can hit 1 level at a time. Before, barrages could only hit the top levels of a ruins. Now, you can choose to have it hit any of the levels. The only thing is that it just hits 1 level.
Not to change the topic, just curious about Lictor experiences. I've got 9 and am thinking of running a Lictor/Ravener/Genestealer themed list. Not terribly powerful, I know - but has anyone used 9 at once?
I had a thought about the 5-strong (Forest brood?) squad, possibly even buffed by Swarmy for s7 on the charge. Infiltration along with a few Genestealer infiltrators might end up with a decent 'in your face' first turn. Gimmicky? I need an excuse to finish painting my Lictors, you see...
SBG wrote: Not to change the topic, just curious about Lictor experiences. I've got 9 and am thinking of running a Lictor/Ravener/Genestealer themed list. Not terribly powerful, I know - but has anyone used 9 at once?
I had a thought about the 5-strong (Forest brood?) squad, possibly even buffed by Swarmy for s7 on the charge. Infiltration along with a few Genestealer infiltrators might end up with a decent 'in your face' first turn. Gimmicky? I need an excuse to finish painting my Lictors, you see...
The Forest brood is actually a lot better than you might think. Five Lictors hit like an absolute truck with their 25 S6 Rending I6/WS6 attacks on the charge. If you play with forests at all, they get a lot better, but I think people tend to look at the Deadly Fruit rule and write them off as awful without really trying them out. I do think that the Death Leaper Assassin Brood is better, but LFB is still nasty.
If you were thinking of running a medium-sized "in your face" sort of list then Lictors will probably work well alongside their other T4/3W brothers. Shrikes and Raveners are both good in large numbers because of their hitting power and speed. Lictors bring that same strength in another wrapper (and their slower speed is off-set by being on your opponent from the outset, making directing whatever S8 firepower they have at your Raveners/Shrikes less of a certainly.
Somewhere way back in this thread are some comments from someone (ductvader?) who ran a T4 tsunami list like this with good success.
Ok...so...playing with new ideas for 7th edition for a charity tournament coming up.
Realisations so far from a few test games with different things all over the place...
We need Warp Charges - Tyranids were always heavily dependent on their psychic powers and now doubly so with the way the casting system has changed. Nothing really changed for us heavily leaning on Catalyst, Paroxysm and Onslaught. In fact, with the tweaks to vehicle damage Warp Blast suddenly gets a bit more of a nod as our only way of oneshotting a vehicle at range! - Zoanthropes gain favour!
The Tyranid Warlord Traits - aren't as bad anymore. They were never fantastic but at least the 1 allows you to turn woods into dangerous terrain (which the majority of our units will ignore due to MTC) as opposed to free hits on anything going in it.
Crones are now...somewhat more disappointing. Their tentaclids are still unreliable and now their vector strike is only a single hit on a ground unit or vehicle rather than what it was before. AP 2 really don't compensate for that.
Cover is suddenly a thing again, especially considering that certain things have become flat area terrain that grants cover saves, regardless of TLoS! Hurrah Ruins! Hurrah craters! Also, considering that certain types of buildings grant bonuses....well....
So, with this in mind I set about with the following.
Previously I would have considered crones and carnifexes as a staple in my army. Now, the Dakkafex is still respectable but I feel...I can do more.
The rules for the tournament are as follows...
1800 points
Forgeworld, Formations, Fortifications, Lords of War etc. are allowed. Only solid rule is NO Unbound lists.
It's a charity tournament. Be fun.
Now, if people want to develop a list here with me I'd be all for it. I love how our thread is so very organic and functions like a true hive mind in that sense.
Primary Detachment
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Scytals, Reaper of Obliterax
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Barbed Hierodule
Second Detachment
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
2 Biovores
1800 points exactly!
Now, things I am considering and reasonings behind them.
14 Warp Charge dice before anything is rolled. This will be a HUGE boon for me to be honest. This makes a nice bubble to get off catalysts and paroxysms where needed. There are also 4 guaranteed sources of Warp Blast there. Also, important considering the way vehicles have changed.
Everyone scores so multiple single model units can do something - I just have to play smart with the gaunts and keep them back on key objectives, scuttling forward to deny at the end.
Flyrants - 2 Dakka Flyrants to cover anti-air as well as glance vehicles to death with S6 small arms fire and the Assassin Tyrant to leap on Wraithknights, Riptides or anything else big and potentially annoying. The Reaper's shred helps reroll for those all important ID causing 6s. Also considering making him my Warlord to make him a bit harder to hunt as most consider dakka tyrants the real threat and certain traits fall down with dakka tyrants.
Barbie gets to play - To get him I pretty much traded out the Crones and the Carnifexes - he's got a slightly reduced rate of firepower compared to the Carnifexes but of a much higher strength and at AP 3 to boot. Not to mention capable of targetting seperate units. In return he's significantly tougher (T8 with FNP by default), moves faster and can Stomp in assault as well. I found Carnifexes really needed to be shepherded along with Onslaught, were remarkably fragile (4 T6 wounds) without Catalyst and could struggle if they got caught out by things with high WS and suffered from low initiative. Wraithlords were jerks. Anything with poison was jerk.
Now Barbie? Not so. Better WS than a carnifex. Better initiative. STRONGER. With D3 potential ID causing stomps at I1. The lack of air support from crones doesn't worry me - 2 Dakka flyrants should have that covered and S10 AP3 shots I suspect will have more impact than S6 AP- shots at the right targets.
Now what am I considering and what could be lost?
Ripper Swarms - I am considering a unit or two of these, possibly to replace a gaunt unit. Similar wounds, far more attacks and fearless to boot they can be plonked on something and left there.
Formations - I can field most formations. Currently I only really lack Harpies and Exocrines from my army. I did consider a Lictor Forest brood. Just for a shock unit of 5 Lictors showing up from somewhere. But the thing is, where would that come from? I could shave the Hierodule away and buy the LFB and have points spare...but Barbie has her perks and I found in the few games she did get used in she commands respect and draws a lot of firepower, which is bloody important for nids.
Tyrant Guard - Is it bad I considered seeing if I could squeeze out 140 points from somewhere to throw 2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws in, just to have them waddle toward a vehicle and crunch it in a surprising twist?
So I don't know whether you want competitive tactical advice or not, or what restrictions this being a charity event puts on you, as much as I'd like to help.
So I don't know whether you want competitive tactical advice or not, or what restrictions this being a charity event puts on you, as much as I'd like to help.
Roll with it. I'm just largely mucking about and giving the bugs a proper 7th ed. dust off.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Ok...so...playing with new ideas for 7th edition for a charity tournament coming up.
Realisations so far from a few test games with different things all over the place...
We need Warp Charges - Tyranids were always heavily dependent on their psychic powers and now doubly so with the way the casting system has changed. Nothing really changed for us heavily leaning on Catalyst, Paroxysm and Onslaught. In fact, with the tweaks to vehicle damage Warp Blast suddenly gets a bit more of a nod as our only way of oneshotting a vehicle at range! - Zoanthropes gain favour!
The Tyranid Warlord Traits - aren't as bad anymore. They were never fantastic but at least the 1 allows you to turn woods into dangerous terrain (which the majority of our units will ignore due to MTC) as opposed to free hits on anything going in it.
Crones are now...somewhat more disappointing. Their tentaclids are still unreliable and now their vector strike is only a single hit on a ground unit or vehicle rather than what it was before. AP 2 really don't compensate for that.
Cover is suddenly a thing again, especially considering that certain things have become flat area terrain that grants cover saves, regardless of TLoS! Hurrah Ruins! Hurrah craters! Also, considering that certain types of buildings grant bonuses....well....
So, with this in mind I set about with the following.
Previously I would have considered crones and carnifexes as a staple in my army. Now, the Dakkafex is still respectable but I feel...I can do more.
The rules for the tournament are as follows...
1800 points
Forgeworld, Formations, Fortifications, Lords of War etc. are allowed. Only solid rule is NO Unbound lists.
It's a charity tournament. Be fun.
Now, if people want to develop a list here with me I'd be all for it. I love how our thread is so very organic and functions like a true hive mind in that sense.
Primary Detachment
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Scytals, Reaper of Obliterax
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Barbed Hierodule
Second Detachment
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
2 Biovores
1800 points exactly!
Now, things I am considering and reasonings behind them.
14 Warp Charge dice before anything is rolled. This will be a HUGE boon for me to be honest. This makes a nice bubble to get off catalysts and paroxysms where needed. There are also 4 guaranteed sources of Warp Blast there. Also, important considering the way vehicles have changed.
Everyone scores so multiple single model units can do something - I just have to play smart with the gaunts and keep them back on key objectives, scuttling forward to deny at the end.
Flyrants - 2 Dakka Flyrants to cover anti-air as well as glance vehicles to death with S6 small arms fire and the Assassin Tyrant to leap on Wraithknights, Riptides or anything else big and potentially annoying. The Reaper's shred helps reroll for those all important ID causing 6s. Also considering making him my Warlord to make him a bit harder to hunt as most consider dakka tyrants the real threat and certain traits fall down with dakka tyrants.
Barbie gets to play - To get him I pretty much traded out the Crones and the Carnifexes - he's got a slightly reduced rate of firepower compared to the Carnifexes but of a much higher strength and at AP 3 to boot. Not to mention capable of targetting seperate units. In return he's significantly tougher (T8 with FNP by default), moves faster and can Stomp in assault as well. I found Carnifexes really needed to be shepherded along with Onslaught, were remarkably fragile (4 T6 wounds) without Catalyst and could struggle if they got caught out by things with high WS and suffered from low initiative. Wraithlords were jerks. Anything with poison was jerk.
Now Barbie? Not so. Better WS than a carnifex. Better initiative. STRONGER. With D3 potential ID causing stomps at I1. The lack of air support from crones doesn't worry me - 2 Dakka flyrants should have that covered and S10 AP3 shots I suspect will have more impact than S6 AP- shots at the right targets.
Now what am I considering and what could be lost?
Ripper Swarms - I am considering a unit or two of these, possibly to replace a gaunt unit. Similar wounds, far more attacks and fearless to boot they can be plonked on something and left there.
Formations - I can field most formations. Currently I only really lack Harpies and Exocrines from my army. I did consider a Lictor Forest brood. Just for a shock unit of 5 Lictors showing up from somewhere. But the thing is, where would that come from? I could shave the Hierodule away and buy the LFB and have points spare...but Barbie has her perks and I found in the few games she did get used in she commands respect and draws a lot of firepower, which is bloody important for nids.
Tyrant Guard - Is it bad I considered seeing if I could squeeze out 140 points from somewhere to throw 2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws in, just to have them waddle toward a vehicle and crunch it in a surprising twist?
So, opinions. Thoughts. Mutual digestions.
It's a tough list tha'ts for sure. However, you're really relying on the majority of your damage output being from your Barbed Heirodule and your Flyrants. Now don't get me wrong, that is decent damage output w/24 BS4 TL S6 shots + 6? TL S10 shots that can be split. Where I would be concerned the most is in your threat saturation. Tyranids typically do this the best out of most of the races. You've got 4 threats...3 If your opponent can force your melee Flyrant to swoop. A smart opponent could drop 1, maybe 2 Flryants if you're not careful and then you're in trouble.
I don't know that I could suggest any changes without giving you the generic advice or changing your list too much. I think that you'll have fun with it, but you've got a lot of eggs in one or two small baskets :-)
It's a tough list tha'ts for sure. However, you're really relying on the majority of your damage output being from your Barbed Heirodule and your Flyrants. Now don't get me wrong, that is decent damage output w/24 BS4 TL S6 shots + 6? TL S10 shots that can be split. Where I would be concerned the most is in your threat saturation. Tyranids typically do this the best out of most of the races. You've got 4 threats...3 If your opponent can force your melee Flyrant to swoop. A smart opponent could drop 1, maybe 2 Flryants if you're not careful and then you're in trouble.
I don't know that I could suggest any changes without giving you the generic advice or changing your list too much. I think that you'll have fun with it, but you've got a lot of eggs in one or two small baskets :-)
Its BS3 (S10 AP3 Assault 6) x2
I see them as a bit unreliable on the shooting side. Anyone see deifferently?
I'm not a huge fan of the barbed Hierodule. It's way overpriced for what it does in comparison to other stronger MC's out there and I'm not to even going to mention super heavies... The only super heavy for Tyranids that I think is worth it is the scythes Hierodule. 7 attacks at ws4 + stomp and the hell-storm AP3 flamer. You're going to be doing a lot more damage a lot more reliably.
I've started going over individual rules and units for nids on my blog and with ia4 coming out within a few weeks I will be reviewing the revised rules and of of course the new monster.
Have a look and see if you find anything of interest and let me know if you have any suggestions for future posts.
Last night I did a pretty thorough look at shadows in the warp and the hive tyrant should anyone want to learn a little more on the two!
Tonight I'll be posting a battle rep where my hive fleet will take on Iron hands and Ultramarines with a Typhon heavy siege tank...
Wilson wrote: I'm not a huge fan of the barbed Hierodule. It's way overpriced for what it does in comparison to other stronger MC's out there and I'm not to even going to mention super heavies... The only super heavy for Tyranids that I think is worth it is the scythes Hierodule. 7 attacks at ws4 + stomp and the hell-storm AP3 flamer. You're going to be doing a lot more damage a lot more reliably.
Both Hierodules are way overpriced compared to, well, anything; but the Barbed variant is clearly the better option. The Scythed variant essentially has to be in charge range to do any damage, and if you're getting to that point with a unit it can just as well be a Carnifex. A Hierodule barrelling directly into your opponent's line is a very expensive fire magnet. If that's what you're after, why not just take some combination of Acid Spray Tyrannofexes + Carnifexes for far less points? At least they come with some 2+ armour.
On the other hand, Bio-cannons give you something that Nids really struggle with under 7E: ranged anti-armour. We have a real issue with AV13+ outside of melee now that HVCs are less effective (and Rupture Cannons are still terrible). A Barbed Hierodule can threaten AV14 from a decent range where it can benefit from terrain and/or Venomthropes. It helps if you can squeeze out some extra effectiveness... the Swarmlord's Preferred Enemy buff or the Ammo Dump upgrade for buildings can help too.
Although to be honest, you need to be playing Apoc for either of these units to be nearly effective. Harridans are where it's at, dudes.
Yep. That's what I looked at. Barbie brings 12 S10 shots on something or 6 S10 shots on two different things. The scythed Hierodule...brings a S6 hellstorm template. Fair enough but the Knights/Land Raiders/AV 13 vehicles of the world aren't threatened by it and assaulting...leads to tarpitting.
The Saturation...well, mostly comes from watching how people here play. The Zoeys are now becoming threats and Barbie will get attention just for living. If she soaks up 1900 points worth of fire in 2 turns and dies....well, she'll have done her job.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Yep. That's what I looked at. Barbie brings 12 S10 shots on something or 6 S10 shots on two different things. The scythed Hierodule...brings a S6 hellstorm template. Fair enough but the Knights/Land Raiders/AV 13 vehicles of the world aren't threatened by it and assaulting...leads to tarpitting.
The Saturation...well, mostly comes from watching how people here play. The Zoeys are now becoming threats and Barbie will get attention just for living. If she soaks up 1900 points worth of fire in 2 turns and dies....well, she'll have done her job.
Yep, the "Shiny Model" strategy...it is a classic.
I played my first tactical objective game at the weekend.
Must say, I like T.O much more than previous scoring systems. 1850 VS Whitescars net list (Bikes, Flyers and TTCannons oh my) - might be because I ran away with the game though, my opponent conceded my turn 4 with me sitting on 11 VP and him 8.
I used a mesh list with Dark Eldar (Because... favourite models all on one board!)
Deadbeats of the match were Biovores and Crone, Man of this match was Carnifexs
Found that playing objectives well was a boost, also even with WS mobility to get to certain objectives was not easy.
I controlled 3 objectives on my side throughout the game, giving me access to 3 cards per turn (The one I couldn't shake being opponent fails a moral/LD test...). by turn 4 I held 4 objectives and would have controlled the last 2.
Anyway, like T.O and 7th quite a bit, can see swarms actually being able to do much better than MC lists for some missions. Powers are much harder to get off though. Raiders were worth the Darklances with how many Warp lance opportunities lost.
Crones - oh Crones. You 6th ed. wonders who have now fallen far out of favour. The kicker on the Vector Strike hurts. AP2 does not compensate the loss of 3 potential autohits - sure, you can potentially explode a tank but you could wreck one before with massed glances.
Also - TOs help Tyranids a lot. TOs help a lot of people.
Fun Fact - Imperial Knights don't actually have a 'Troops' choice. Every choice on their Force Org is a Knight. They got their own special category!
Which is hilarious as they don't have Objective Secured. That allowed my poor neglected CSM army to actually win a game against them (god bless TOs) simply through lone Plague Marines denying and claiming objectives!
Thing is...I'm curious as to how my Tyranids will fare.
Anyhow, back to my list - things pointed out - target saturation being the big one.
Also, 14 Warp Charge is a bit rude.
Debating the following...
Keeping the Flyrants - too much value in their mobility and the assassin has proven himself in the past (literally took down the GUOLoW in a game by multiple IDs to stack the wounds). Plus there are Warlord traits that benefit challenges and he works that way.
Might drop the 4 solo Zoeys to two broods of 2 for added durability - not sure it's worth sacrificing 4 Warp Charge points (as well as 2 additional Warp Lances that can be fired at seperate targets).
Debating dropping the Reaper and the Biovores - freeing up 105 points. Might use that to bulk up the gaunt broods and perhaps to put down a beefy Ripper Swarm with Deep Strike.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Crones - oh Crones. You 6th ed. wonders who have now fallen far out of favour. The kicker on the Vector Strike hurts. AP2 does not compensate the loss of 3 potential autohits - sure, you can potentially explode a tank but you could wreck one before with massed glances.
Also - TOs help Tyranids a lot. TOs help a lot of people.
Fun Fact - Imperial Knights don't actually have a 'Troops' choice. Every choice on their Force Org is a Knight. They got their own special category!
Which is hilarious as they don't have Objective Secured. That allowed my poor neglected CSM army to actually win a game against them (god bless TOs) simply through lone Plague Marines denying and claiming objectives!
Thing is...I'm curious as to how my Tyranids will fare.
Anyhow, back to my list - things pointed out - target saturation being the big one.
Also, 14 Warp Charge is a bit rude.
Debating the following...
Keeping the Flyrants - too much value in their mobility and the assassin has proven himself in the past (literally took down the GUOLoW in a game by multiple IDs to stack the wounds). Plus there are Warlord traits that benefit challenges and he works that way.
Might drop the 4 solo Zoeys to two broods of 2 for added durability - not sure it's worth sacrificing 4 Warp Charge points (as well as 2 additional Warp Lances that can be fired at seperate targets).
Debating dropping the Reaper and the Biovores - freeing up 105 points. Might use that to bulk up the gaunt broods and perhaps to put down a beefy Ripper Swarm with Deep Strike.
Opinions?
Don't drop the Biovores. they give us a chance to hit light infantry early in the game, hide from heavy rounds and draw opponents towards your table half to make better use out of our shorter range shooting.
Zoanathropes, for me at least are now beacons of synapse that provide warp charge points. I don't think I've used their warp lance yet ( I'm new to 'bids!)
I feel strongly towards running the following;
2X zoanthrope for durability, warp charge and synapse.
1 zoanthrope for extra warp charge contribution and synapse.
I am starting to think though that it might be time to drop 1 of the 2 Zoays as it really just doesn't serve much of a purpose the way I play at the moment.
DarkStarSabre wrote: The Tyranid Warlord Traits - aren't as bad anymore. They were never fantastic but at least the 1 allows you to turn woods into dangerous terrain (which the majority of our units will ignore due to MTC) as opposed to free hits on anything going in it.
I think the Tyranid Warlord traits are far worse than they were in 6th. The Strategic table so so very, very powerful. Basically any roll on that table is better than the best roll on the Tyranid table in most places, and if we don't get what we want, we can reroll.
I guess in your locality, you are seeing forests more in 7th. I'm certainly not. It has probably been 20 games since I saw a forest on the table. Even if I did seem them, that would be a terrible warlord trait compared to infiltrating 3 units + your warlord.
I guess if this works for you. Seems like a bad choice. Even if it kills a Wraith Knight it is barely worth it. A better option to kill wraith knights is 20 Poison Gaunts.
I would drop
10 Termagaunts
Flyrant - Scytals, Reaper of Obliterax
1 Biovore
for
20 Poison Hormagants
Dakka Fex / TFex / Crone.
After all a Reaper Flyrant has to Glide rather than Swoop to be effective. At the very least throw E. Grubs on him to discourage charges by things like Knights. For minimum changes drop 1 biovore and add E. Grubs to all of your flyrants.
tag8833 wrote: I guess if this works for you. Seems like a bad choice. Even if it kills a Wraith Knight it is barely worth it. A better option to kill wraith knights is 20 Poison Gaunts.
I would drop
10 Termagaunts
Flyrant - Scytals, Reaper of Obliterax
1 Biovore
for
20 Poison Hormagants
Dakka Fex / TFex / Crone.
After all a Reaper Flyrant has to Glide rather than Swoop to be effective. At the very least throw E. Grubs on him to discourage charges by things like Knights. For minimum changes drop 1 biovore and add E. Grubs to all of your flyrants.
That's where things differ. You are the only person to suggest Hormagaunts here in...what, 100 pages? I find hormagaunts have a problem. They need synapse babysitters, they are far, far too fragile and far too open to blasts in general. I certainly don't think they're worth taking out a Tyrant for. Sure, they can throw out a number of poisoned attacks at something. If they get there in any sort of reasonable numbers. Which with blasts, flamer templates, massed bolter fire...they won't. To me they're a step below genestealers because at least genestealers can either outflank or infiltrate and have T4 to try and survive some of the fire they attract. Hormagaunts? Yeah, no. Used them before, watched them die in droves for minimal effect. Definately not worth the loss of a Flyrant - a Flyrant can comfortably bully small-mid sized units on his own, provides 2 warp charge dice (remember, dice are important now to us), expands the synapse bubble and is somewhat more survivable.
Dakkafex/Tfex/Crone - Well, no to the Crone straight off. Already discussed how 7th neutered them. You can argue for haywire tentaclids which I have yet to see actually hit anything because BS 3 with a limited, single shot weapon is...ew. Dakkafexes...mmm. I used to run a number of them but the problens were that anything with a higher I and WS (so, the entire space marine army) and a melee weapon with shred or a decent number of S5-S6 attacks will bully the everliving hell out of a Dakkafex.
Tyrannofexes...hmm. Yeah, they're sturdy but cost a significant amount more. Not sure where I could wriggle one of these in.
DarkStarSabre wrote: That's where things differ. You are the only person to suggest Hormagaunts here in...what, 100 pages? I find hormagaunts have a problem. They need synapse babysitters, they are far, far too fragile and far too open to blasts in general. I certainly don't think they're worth taking out a Tyrant for. Sure, they can throw out a number of poisoned attacks at something. If they get there in any sort of reasonable numbers. Which with blasts, flamer templates, massed bolter fire...they won't. To me they're a step below genestealers because at least genestealers can either outflank or infiltrate and have T4 to try and survive some of the fire they attract. Hormagaunts?
20 Hormagaunts will easily kill 2 Wraith Knights. They are fast and objective secured, and you have an overabundance of synapse in your list. 4 Zoeys, 2 flyrants. It is a unit that would add good synergy to your list and great ability to kill wraith knights and score objectives. I ran the math a few pages back. Genestealers take far less firepower to kill, and put out less damage to a wraith knight (Though they are slightly ahead against a Riptide. HGaunts are way, way better against a Great Unclean one or Demon Prince.
You were using a Reaper Flyrant that can no longer effectively fly. It can still Jink, and if it moves at the speed of a venom, get a 2+ cover, but I thought there was a better way to go with 245 points. Since you noted fear of MC's as your reason for taking the reaper flyrant, I assumed they were a big problem in your expected meta. They aren't a significant issue in mine, because I tend to tarpit them with gargoyles or kill them with dakka. I have much more trouble dealing with vehicles and the recent uptick in Walkers and Objective Secured Drop Pods.
You may feel that HGaunts are an ineffective use of points, and sure, they could be, but not near as ineffective as a reaper flyrant. Especially against Tau, Eldar, and Dark Eldar which are going to be the biggest challenge to your list.
Lastly, psychic dice are important, that is true, but there is a diminishing level of returns for each additional psychic dice. If you have 1 dice and 1 ML of psycher, you are going to reasonably be able to cast 1 spell. If you have 6 and 6 ML of psycher, now you are only able to cast about 3 spells. If you have a few dice, you spells are going to get denied, and zoeys are such good warp charge batteries. But paying 245 points for 2 more dice when you already have 12 is not really a great argument.
Tag's advice is really good DARKSTAR. I'll add some inabit, but what Tag says is generally pretty accurate. Hormagants might not be great, but their definitely better than Reaper Flyrant, especially the role you want it for. Genestealers don't add as easily to a list as hgaunts who can be much more effective, Stealers are glass cannon units that are more Killy but need numbers and much support, Horms can just be slotted into a troop slot easily and still do what they need to. If you want to outflank, use Flyrant's upgrade to do it, but protip: the infiltrate is what makes stealers better not outflank. As far as Tyranids being dependant on powers, this hasn't been the case since our 5E codex when Flyrants Tyrants Swarmlord Tervigon relied on Iron Arms and other Biomancy utilities, nowadays our powers are kind of mediocre if spammed, other than Catalyst most rolls won't do their 50 pts worth unless you build for it. Taking 5-6 Zoeys is ok though if you are planning to take advantage of a few Onslaught rolls by pushing Dakkafexes or Tyrannofexes into shooting range turn 1. Master of Ambush warlord trait helps your chances of this too. Warp Lance is absolute trash and recieved no buff and just got even less reliable, and EAT your cast dice.
I'd have agree with running too many zoans. Psychic dice is important, but you'll going to find that the best Tyranid builds won't really be relying on massed psychic dice. There is a point of diminishing returns with regards to Tyranid psykers unless they have multi-purpose roles (i.e. tyrants). In the case of your list, you really don't need that many beacons of synapse.
BTW, I'd recommend swapping out at least 2 units of termagants for 2x3 deepstriking ripper swarms.
Hmm, playing with ideas to drop out the assassin Flyrant...
20 Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs
And that leaves 85 points to hand.
I don't want to sacrifice further warp charge (and my over abundance of Synapse has saved me so many times in the past because I've found people will start blitzing synapse when they realise objectives are being kept in check by them)...and really, I don't want to Field a Tyrannofex without taking a second template on him to add to the fun he brings.
One problem with dropping the 10 gaunts - it breaks the rule of the secondary detachment which effectively would cull the versatility of the solo zoanthropes and second solo venomthrope.
So this 85 points spare...
Part of me wants to play with Ripper Swarms. My brain even thought of DSing Toxic Swarms onto things and giggling...until I realised 2 things. First, they're I2 -which means against the big meaty things they will be...somewhat lacklustre as they will strike after them and lose 3 bases before striking due to ID. Ouch.
Also Shuppet, a rebuttal to Warp Lance as others have pointed out.
Outside of Melee we have no way of reliably smushing vehicles anymore. Vector Strike Crones got hit down to a single strike on ground targets and almost none of our high strength weapons are AP 2 or AP 1 for the all important dice roll of a 7+ to cause the explosion.
In 6th a Crone could Vector Strike most vehicles off the battlefield - to the extent that I ran 2 Crones and would start strafing the enemy back line from Turn 2 onwards in 6th, deleting Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators or even Leman Russes and Knights through massed S8 hits on side armour. Now? Well, now the best a Crone gets is a single hit that he has to hope penetrates and then hope he rolls well on to do the damage. Before when you could potential put 4 S8 hits on something's side you could be confident enough that your other firepower could take it out if you didn't.
HVCs could do damage with their high strength blast template...not a lot but it added to the weight of fire theory.
Now? Now all we have that can one shot a vehicle is a Warp Lance. The Barbed Hierodule is in the list because multiple S10 shots certainly helps via hull point stripping, much like the old Crone Vectors but now vehicles are a pain. Especially as they score. Especially as they are harder to get rid of. Our Rupture Cannons and HVCs can't even wreck a Rhino or an Ork Trukk - and those vehicles can still score (with Objective Secured!) so long as they are mobile.
I've found if I get one successful Warp Lance off people tend to throw dice at it in order to prevent us possibly getting that lucky shot on a vehicle. Having 4 sources of a Warp Lance makes people even more paranoid.
A S5 AP3 blast template isn't anything to sniff at either.
So yes, new list.
We'll take the 20 Hormagaunts out for a spin and add 2 more biovores.
I fully expect Vehicles to be a royal pain - in particular knights.
The local meta tends to have the following....
Space Marines - as far as the eye can see - we have 1 Salamander, 1 Minotaur and 1 Raven Guard player. We also on occasion have Dark Angels and a pair of Blood Angels armies.
Knights - we have one Knight player so far. Lone Knights have been spotted creeping in as well.
Eldar - I know of 3 Eldar players. Two run Mechdar, one was known to bring multiple Wraithknights.
Tau - At least 2 Tau players, one Riptide heavy and the other suit heavy.
Chaos - One Daemon player with a perverse love of Nurgle, 2 CSM players - as a side note I expect Heldrakes to follow Crones into decline. Losing the 360 degree line of sight will be the thing that kills them. A crippled Vector strike doesn't help either.
We also have oddities in Orks, Adeptas Soritas and Necrons.
Hmm. I don't like this being muddled when I have things to paint.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Hmm, playing with ideas to drop out the assassin Flyrant...
I feel like we bullied you into it. You can play what you want, it will be aces against certain match-ups. (Ones who can't ignore cover and don't have widely available poison)
DarkStarSabre wrote: One problem with dropping the 10 gaunts - it breaks the rule of the secondary detachment which effectively would cull the versatility of the solo zoanthropes and second solo venomthrope.
Take hormagaunts in place of Termgagaunts. Same number of troops. Still legal detachments.
You still have the carnifexes in there right? You should have points for them.
Another option besides Poison HGaunts is just tarpitting units. Some people aren't ok with that preferring to kill things than just tie them up. Gargoyles are the best tar-pits. non-upgraded Hormagaunts are second best. If you wanted to take 20 Gargoyles instead of 20 Poison gaunts, you could tarpit one big MC and save 40 points. Drop 3 biovores and you have room for another Dakkafex.
Also, another delayed thought to help with the Vehicle front...
Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Run them as a single brood of their own and waddle them up to vehicles amongst the chaos of the gaunts.
As above...
Drop the Assassin Flyrant, 10 Termagants and 1 Biovore.
Replace with..
18 Toxic Hormagaunts
Leaves me a total of 181 points spare.
So...ideas....things I am considering putting in there. Bear in mind I want to make the most of spare points so multiple units is preferable
2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws - 140 points (leaving 40 points spare)
Dakkafex - 150 points (30 points spare)
Crusherfex with trimmings - 150ish (30ish spare)
3 Biovores (making 2 broods of 2 with the existing 1) - 120 points (60 points spare)
3 scytal Raveners and the Red Terror - 175 points (lol spare points)
5 Rending Raveners - 175 points (same)
Naked T-fex - 175 points (nope)
Deathleaper - Always an option with 50 points to spare for something. (50 points spare)
Other options include...a Stealer brood of some sorts, a big blob of deepstriking spinefist rippers to waste points, a respectable lictor brood or a Crone of Disappointment.
Base List is currently at....
Primary Detachment
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Reaper of Obliterax
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants 10 Termagants
Barbed Hierodule
Secondary Detachment
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
2 Biovores Note one might be dropped
Things in italics are being considered dropped, just trying to figure the spare points.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Also, another delayed thought to help with the Vehicle front...
Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Run them as a single brood of their own and waddle them up to vehicles amongst the chaos of the gaunts.
As above...
Drop the Assassin Flyrant, 10 Termagants and 1 Biovore.
Replace with..
18 Toxic Hormagaunts
Leaves me a total of 181 points spare.
So...ideas....things I am considering putting in there. Bear in mind I want to make the most of spare points so multiple units is preferable
2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws - 140 points (leaving 40 points spare)
Dakkafex - 150 points (30 points spare)
Crusherfex with trimmings - 150ish (30ish spare)
3 Biovores (making 2 broods of 2 with the existing 1) - 120 points (60 points spare)
3 scytal Raveners and the Red Terror - 175 points (lol spare points)
5 Rending Raveners - 175 points (same)
Naked T-fex - 175 points (nope)
Deathleaper - Always an option with 50 points to spare for something. (50 points spare)
Other options include...a Stealer brood of some sorts, a big blob of deepstriking spinefist rippers to waste points, a respectable lictor brood or a Crone of Disappointment.
Base List is currently at....
Primary Detachment
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Reaper of Obliterax
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants 10 Termagants
Barbed Hierodule
Secondary Detachment
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
2 Biovores Note one might be dropped
Things in italics are being considered dropped, just trying to figure the spare points.
Well...as you know, I run an Assassin, so I like her just fine. You might get better use of your points if you break down the upgrades though...Reaper is ,what 45? So Bonesword/Lashwhip, Adrenal runs 35, toss in a Thorax Hive, and I don't think you'll miss Shred all that much... Make her Toxic, and you get back into re-roll city, and save 5 points...? So, you can trim, and add to get a "custom fit" I find that Vector Strike, a Template, and a "Insta-Killy" weapon always add a lot to my play.
rigeld2 wrote: Remember that poison got nerfed in 7th (as far as rerolls go). Only get rerolls if S>T now - before it was S=T.
Hence my personal preference for Reaper over LW/BW and Toxin.
Forcing rerolls via shred is better than flat wounding on 4+ at times, strange as that sounds. It improves the chances of a 6 for the ID to kick in.
I may consider the assassin again. Just wanting a general consensus from folk. Remember, you don't always have to fly. Target saturation is interesting that way.
My friend had to bail on the 2500 pt Daemon game, but this Saturday I met an old Eldar player (dudes in his 50's) with a great attitude and we settled on a 3k game this Saturday, so hopefully I'll have an epic battle.
Yes, Crone got nerfed in 7th. No, Zoanthropes are not the answer to this.
Just to help you out, since your reasoning behind Zo's seems to largely revolve around them being able to Explode stuff. Do you know how unlikely it is that you will explode something with a Zo? For starters, you need 5 warp dice to even have a positive chance at successfully manifesting, 4 to make it 50/50. This converts to 1 out of every 2 attempting to manifest,, and half of them failing. 6 Zo's will successfully cast 1.5 warp Lances a turn, or 3 in two turns. 1 of these will miss. So now you are on a 1 hit a turn average with Warp Lance, for every 6 Zoeys. Then against AV14 you have 1/3 chance of either glancing or doing nothing. Then after all this happens and you get a pen, guess what - getting this pen tied up all the warp dice granted to you from all your zoeys, and your opponent can almost freely dedicate all his deny dice to this one power. But ASSUMING it still goes through - guess what, you have a 1/6 chance to explode. Hoorah if you do. And we haven't even mentioned the high perils chance yet either, or what 18" range and no drop pods anymore does for your damage projection. Firing Warp Lance with Zoanthropes is the equivalent of when AM roll to hit with that one laspistol in the 30 man infantry blob and hope for a result with it.
just to pre-emptively respond, to a few possible points on these stats - yes you could dedicate more dice to improving your chance to manifest (and subsequently perils), but consider that every charge you spend that they didn't bring to the pool themselves on making the decision to take Zoanthropes more cost effective (I.e. Your randomly generated dice or your Flyrant's) is making the Psykers that you no doubt already have in your army (Flyrants) equally less cost effective. This is one of the other ways to expect diminishing returns.
Compare that 2 hive Crones for the same price are doing 4 glances to AV14 (aka killing it) in the same space of time off Tentaclids alone, have 60" damage projection instead of 24" from the Zo's, and also have the option to Vektor Strike and Drool Cannon. Sure Tentaclids have limited use, but the use of them is actually doing something. And against AV12 or 10 side armour Vektor Striking + template rear armour is a much higher chance of Explode, you will on average get a pen AND a glance a turn, and that's after factoring in the penetration roll and not having to worry about Deny Dice or Jink / cover saves. Much better against heavy armor, much better against light. Crones may have gotten weaker at tank busting - that doesn't make them the worst thing at it in the dex.
The problem is how easy it is to be fooled by Zoanthropes, AV10 AP2 Lance and 3+ Invuls, a few of them must be able to manhandle anything with an AV right... But as seen, once you apply the damage though, and then after that apply that it's close range no mobility, range, you realise they are not Devastators, they do not fill an AT role in any way at all.
WC2 cast at 50% is 3 dices, not 4. Not saying that zoans are master exploders thanks to this correction...
On the reaper argument: shred is strictly better than poison at S6 and higher (so it's good on primes too). Same performance against T 3,4,5 vastly better against T6, slightly better against T7 (4+ vs rerollable 5+) and worse against T8. The only T8 guy around though is the WKnight, which fears that ID AP3 quite a bit, making the shred (again) better than poison. That increased performance and the +1 strenght is quite worth the +10 points for me.
For Zoanthropes the relevant numbers are:
3 dice = 50% chance, 3% perils
4 dice = 69% chance, 7% perils
Assuming the power is successfully cast (and not denied), each individual Zoanthrope has a 50% chance to score at least 1 HP of damage, with a 4% chance to cause an explode result. That means when using four dice, you're looking at ~35% odds to get 1 HP per Zoan.
In practice I have found that finding enough dice to activate Warp Blast is rarely an issue. The Tyranid psychic table will often leave you with several powers that aren't worth using at a given time, leaving you with plenty of charge to use. I've never failed to activate this power under 7E, nor had it denied. Actually hitting the target is another issue, however...
However you shouldn't start discounting Zoans just from these figures. The classic Lascannon in the hands of a marine has similar averages against AV14 (33% for 1 HP, 7% for explodes) and costs a similar amount of points. The Zoanthrope is a swiss-army knife in your Tyranid armoury. While it's not super-reliable at dealing with armour at range, it still has a bunch of other useful tricks that can help: an AP3 blast for nearby MEQs, additional warp charge, a bonus power, better psychic denial, cheap synapse boosts, and of course that invuln save.
Don't think of the Zoanthrope as a walking Lascannon. It's more like an Obliterator that can help you respond to many threats.
Let's do some more math for zoans vs AV in the following scenario:
4 zoans in 2 groups - 2x2
Both groups cast at 3 dice for a total usage of 6 dices which will almost always be available. One of the groups succesfully casts 2 shots. 4/3 hit which averages in 2/9 glances (0.22) and 8/9 penetrating (0.88). Around 1 hp with an approximate explosion chance of 14% and another 14% of immobilize. That is for 200 points and at 18 range.
If we exclude for a second the range problem then it's not really that bad, for the same cost a riptide has actually worse results. It's the range that makes it sound bad, like with everything in the codex. Luckily when not in range they got a lot of things they can do, so you don't have to look at them as dedicated AV, but more as a support for the first 2 turns which turns into dedicated AV later on.
Spoletta wrote: Let's do some more math for zoans vs AV in the following scenario:
4 zoans in 2 groups - 2x2
Both groups cast at 3 dice for a total usage of 6 dices which will almost always be available. One of the groups succesfully casts 2 shots. 4/3 hit which averages in 2/9 glances (0.22) and 8/9 penetrating (0.88). Around 1 hp with an approximate explosion chance of 14% and another 14% of immobilize. That is for 200 points and at 18 range.
If we exclude for a second the range problem then it's not really that bad, for the same cost a riptide has actually worse results. It's the range that makes it sound bad, like with everything in the codex. Luckily when not in range they got a lot of things they can do, so you don't have to look at them as dedicated AV, but more as a support for the first 2 turns which turns into dedicated AV later on.
Yes you will get better results with Zoeys in packs if casting Warp Lance, each success is multiplied by the size of unit.
Also I can't decipher your math could you please dumb it down for me, until you do I have no real response to this :(
For Zoanthropes the relevant numbers are:
3 dice = 50% chance, 3% perils
4 dice = 69% chance, 7% perils
Assuming the power is successfully cast (and not denied), each individual Zoanthrope has a 50% chance to score at least 1 HP of damage, with a 4% chance to cause an explode result. That means when using four dice, you're looking at ~35% odds to get 1 HP per Zoan.
Thanks for the math! In relation to my calc it turns it to 4 successful casts in two turns, 3 hits
xttz wrote: In practice I have found that finding enough dice to activate Warp Blast is rarely an issue. The Tyranid psychic table will often leave you with several powers that aren't worth using at a given time, leaving you with plenty of charge to use. I've never failed to activate this power under 7E, nor had it denied. Actually hitting the target is another issue, however...
This is all very anecdotal, I've experienced the exact opposite if it's relevant, haven't had a single success
xttz wrote: However you shouldn't start discounting Zoans just from these figures. The classic Lascannon in the hands of a marine has similar averages against AV14 (33% for 1 HP, 7% for explodes) and costs a similar amount of points. The Zoanthrope is a swiss-army knife in your Tyranid armoury. While it's not super-reliable at dealing with armour at range, it still has a bunch of other useful tricks that can help: an AP3 blast for nearby MEQs, additional warp charge, a bonus power, better psychic denial, cheap synapse boosts, and of course that invuln save.
Don't think of the Zoanthrope as a walking Lascannon. It's more like an Obliterator that can help you respond to many threats.
For starters, not once did I discount Zoeys, other than the Venomthrope I fill every spare Elite slot with Zo's. I said taking them as AT is bad, and taking them without building to capitalise on rolls of Onslaught isn't great either.
Also, I'm pretty sure that 300 pts of Lascannon Marines is doing more than 1 HP a turn to a Landraider. What's the exact price of 1, I can't check right now.
Compare that 2 hive Crones for the same price are doing 4 glances to AV14 (aka killing it) in the same space of time off Tentaclids alone, have 60" damage projection instead of 24" from the Zo's, and also have the option to Vektor Strike and Drool Cannon. Sure Tentaclids have limited use, but the use of them is actually doing something. And against AV12 or 10 side armour Vektor Striking + template rear armour is a much higher chance of Explode, you will on average get a pen AND a glance a turn, and that's after factoring in the penetration roll and not having to worry about Deny Dice or Jink / cover saves. Much better against heavy armor, much better against light. Crones may have gotten weaker at tank busting - that doesn't make them the worst thing at it in the dex.
The problem is how easy it is to be fooled by Zoanthropes, AV10 AP2 Lance and 3+ Invuls, a few of them must be able to manhandle anything with an AV right... But as seen, once you apply the damage though, and then after that apply that it's close range no mobility, range, you realise they are not Devastators, they do not fill an AT role in any way at all.
You mention anecdotal evidence and you then refer to Tentaclids. Let me go there. My crones came out flying for a good 10 games recently. They fired at least 2 Tentaclids per game. A third of these were against other flyers.
I have so far caused a single HP of damage with tentaclids. BS 3 on one shot weapons is....ugh. No. No no no. Anecdotal evidence, sure but so far I've done diddly squad with tentaclids.
Zoeys?
Well, they're not just anti tank. But people sure as hell get nervous around them. People pull armour away from their range just in case. To be perfectly frank I use the S5 AP3 template more than the lance. It's surprisingly handy to have around. Not to mention Synapse plus whatever else I get - you know, because we can now fire powers at different targets.
Spoletta wrote: Let's do some more math for zoans vs AV in the following scenario:
4 zoans in 2 groups - 2x2
Both groups cast at 3 dice for a total usage of 6 dices which will almost always be available. One of the groups succesfully casts 2 shots. 4/3 hit which averages in 2/9 glances (0.22) and 8/9 penetrating (0.88). Around 1 hp with an approximate explosion chance of 14% and another 14% of immobilize. That is for 200 points and at 18 range.
If we exclude for a second the range problem then it's not really that bad, for the same cost a riptide has actually worse results. It's the range that makes it sound bad, like with everything in the codex. Luckily when not in range they got a lot of things they can do, so you don't have to look at them as dedicated AV, but more as a support for the first 2 turns which turns into dedicated AV later on.
Ok i'll elaborate a bit.
2 group of zoans casting at 50% and getting an average of 1 cast out should be self explaining.
Those shots hit on a 3+, meaning 2/3 chance, with 2 shots it's an average of 4/3 shots hitting.
Each shot has 1/6 (0.16) chances of glancing and 2/3 (0.66) of penetrating. Multiplied by 4/3 it gives averages of 0.22 glances and 0.88 penetrating. Summed together they give you a bit more than an HP of damage.
Those 0.88 penetrating shots also have a 1/6 chances of causing an explosion and a 1/6 chances of causing an immobilize. Those 0.16 multiplied by 0.88 (doesn't really work like that, probabilities are not linear but 0.88 is close enough to 1 to ignore the non linearity) give a chance to immobilize of around 14% and the same chance of 14% to explode it. This gives a total chance of 28% chance to actually cause something bad to the AV14, no surprise that they avoid the 18 bubble
"just in case".
Yep. A lot of it is about mind games. People avoid Zoeys like the plague, simply because the one shot can ruin their day.
People avoid Tyrants because of reputation alone.
Really, it's more about playing their mind and getting them to go where you want them. People avoiding the Zoey bubble is rather convenient in games with objective. Just float Zoeys toward the objectives. Watch people start to pull off them.
Anyhow...
DarkStarSabre wrote: Also, another delayed thought to help with the Vehicle front...
Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Run them as a single brood of their own and waddle them up to vehicles amongst the chaos of the gaunts.
As above...
Drop the Assassin Flyrant, 10 Termagants and 1 Biovore.
Replace with..
18 Toxic Hormagaunts
Leaves me a total of 181 points spare.
So...ideas....things I am considering putting in there. Bear in mind I want to make the most of spare points so multiple units is preferable
2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws - 140 points (leaving 40 points spare)
Dakkafex - 150 points (30 points spare)
Crusherfex with trimmings - 150ish (30ish spare)
3 Biovores (making 2 broods of 2 with the existing 1) - 120 points (60 points spare)
3 scytal Raveners and the Red Terror - 175 points (lol spare points)
5 Rending Raveners - 175 points (same)
Naked T-fex - 175 points (nope)
Deathleaper - Always an option with 50 points to spare for something. (50 points spare)
Other options include...a Stealer brood of some sorts, a big blob of deepstriking spinefist rippers to waste points, a respectable lictor brood or a Crone of Disappointment.
Base List is currently at....
Primary Detachment
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Reaper of Obliterax
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants 10 Termagants
Barbed Hierodule
Secondary Detachment
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
2 Biovores Note one might be dropped
Things in italics are being considered dropped, just trying to figure the spare points.
Need some responses on this folks.
Further ideas and all...
Do I group the Zoeys together? Losing the Assassin Flyrant and grouping the Zoeys together will lose 6 Warp Charge in total, in return for increased odds of the Lance doing things.
I'm leaning toward the following idea...
Drop the Flyrant.
Drop 10 Termagants
Get 18 Toxin Hormagaunts
Get 2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws.
Group the Zoeys together to have 2 broods of 2 instead of 4 individuals.
Why the Tyrant Guard? Well, someone a number of pages back mentioned the idea of running an unattended Claw brood of Tyrant Guard forward with the swarm and having them suddenly act as a rude surprise to any vehicles they come across with armourbane. 2 of then give 10 attacks on the charge at S5/S6 depending on whether they go Rending Claws (for infantry, enemy MCs or squishy light vehicles) or Claws. It strikes me as a silly...and fun little idea.
The hormagaunt bubble will be my way of apologising to them and giving them a chance to redeem themselves.
And the grouped Zoeys appear to have better odds of lancing if need be and a bit more survivability.
I do have a redundancy of Synapse...but it's always been the way I went.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Yep. A lot of it is about mind games. People avoid Zoeys like the plague, simply because the one shot can ruin their day.
People avoid Tyrants because of reputation alone.
Really, it's more about playing their mind and getting them to go where you want them. People avoiding the Zoey bubble is rather convenient in games with objective. Just float Zoeys toward the objectives. Watch people start to pull off them.
That is very savy advice. Last night. I played a game in which I was getting destroyed, thanks to my tyrant failing all of its cover saves on turn one, and dying turn 2. I had 2 solo broods of zoeys, 3 Warriors, 1 Hive Guard, and 2 wounded dakkafexes left. anyone looking at that list will tell you to kill the dakkafexes first. Unfounded fear of the Zoeys led to my opponent throwing all of their shooting into my zoeys on turn 3 and 4. Zoeys have great saves and 2 wounds each. So it gave me a chance for my Dakkfexes to wreck some major stuff.
I have a regularly opponent who plays drop pod salamanders. I made an offhand comment about people normally not bothering to shoot at my Tyrannofex. So in the last 3-4 games he has poured his entire alpha strike into my Tyrannofex. Sometimes he kills it. Usually he doesn't, but I can always afford to trade my Tyrannofex for an entire round of his shooting. A Tyrannofex isn't an ideal choice in most circumstances, but against this guy, it is my MVP.
Capitalizing on misconceptions is a great way to play. If zoeys screw up your opponents target priority, then run Zoeys. Put some dakkafexes beside them to do the actual damage. Take min squad of Warriors or Shrikes so that when the zoeys go down, you don't lose synapse.
Yep. A lot of it is about mind games. People avoid Zoeys like the plague, simply because the one shot can ruin their day.
People avoid Tyrants because of reputation alone.
Really, it's more about playing their mind and getting them to go where you want them. People avoiding the Zoey bubble is rather convenient in games with objective. Just float Zoeys toward the objectives. Watch people start to pull off them.
Anyhow...
DarkStarSabre wrote: Also, another delayed thought to help with the Vehicle front...
Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. Run them as a single brood of their own and waddle them up to vehicles amongst the chaos of the gaunts.
As above...
Drop the Assassin Flyrant, 10 Termagants and 1 Biovore.
Replace with..
18 Toxic Hormagaunts
Leaves me a total of 181 points spare.
So...ideas....things I am considering putting in there. Bear in mind I want to make the most of spare points so multiple units is preferable
2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws - 140 points (leaving 40 points spare)
Dakkafex - 150 points (30 points spare)
Crusherfex with trimmings - 150ish (30ish spare)
3 Biovores (making 2 broods of 2 with the existing 1) - 120 points (60 points spare)
3 scytal Raveners and the Red Terror - 175 points (lol spare points)
5 Rending Raveners - 175 points (same)
Naked T-fex - 175 points (nope)
Deathleaper - Always an option with 50 points to spare for something. (50 points spare)
Other options include...a Stealer brood of some sorts, a big blob of deepstriking spinefist rippers to waste points, a respectable lictor brood or a Crone of Disappointment.
Base List is currently at....
Primary Detachment
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Flyrant - Reaper of Obliterax
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants 10 Termagants
Barbed Hierodule
Secondary Detachment
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
2 Biovores Note one might be dropped
Things in italics are being considered dropped, just trying to figure the spare points.
Need some responses on this folks.
Further ideas and all...
Do I group the Zoeys together? Losing the Assassin Flyrant and grouping the Zoeys together will lose 6 Warp Charge in total, in return for increased odds of the Lance doing things.
I'm leaning toward the following idea...
Drop the Flyrant.
Drop 10 Termagants
Get 18 Toxin Hormagaunts
Get 2 Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws.
Group the Zoeys together to have 2 broods of 2 instead of 4 individuals.
Why the Tyrant Guard? Well, someone a number of pages back mentioned the idea of running an unattended Claw brood of Tyrant Guard forward with the swarm and having them suddenly act as a rude surprise to any vehicles they come across with armourbane. 2 of then give 10 attacks on the charge at S5/S6 depending on whether they go Rending Claws (for infantry, enemy MCs or squishy light vehicles) or Claws. It strikes me as a silly...and fun little idea.
The hormagaunt bubble will be my way of apologising to them and giving them a chance to redeem themselves.
And the grouped Zoeys appear to have better odds of lancing if need be and a bit more survivability.
I do have a redundancy of Synapse...but it's always been the way I went.
Keep the zoanthropes separate. 1-man units IMO are the best way to run them.
As for your spare points, I'd either go with the dakkafex or a tyrannofex. I see that you haven't considered the mawloc? I would seriously take him into consideration as well.
Personally, I'd stick with the 3rd flyrant as opposed to going with hormagants. Then again, there's only 1 opponent in my meta who really run wraithknights, but overall, I like the flexibility and mobility of the flyrant better.
Since the only thing anyone can use to defend the Zo's is purely anecdotal (except for Spoletta who is doing something different) I'm going to make the also anecdotal statement that in my experience, bad players will pick the wrong target like shooting at a Zo because he has an AV10 lance, and the good players will know which risks to take knowing that 3 Zoeys, in range will land a Lance every second turn, and will waste all their warp charge that they brought to the table doing so. They will also know that Zoeys are one of the tankier things in the army. This is what the numbers say they do and a smart player will have at least a good idea on how this will play out. Anecdotal accounts might have Zoanthropes acheiving something different, or players making foolish decisions based on misconceptions about their firepower, or Crones firing 20 times and not doing a single HP.
These are all very nice stories, but building around anecdotal experiences is terrible justification (even to yourself) for choosing the best unit for your army. A good player can seperate the times that the model under performed and the times that dice under performed.
As to Spoletta, can you share the math for Zo's in a 3 man platform? Do I just multiply the percentage by 3/2 or does changing the amount of shots at the start have a deeper affect on the math? And can you share the math with say 4 or 5 casting dice? If I'm bringing Zopes as a multiple more costly unit it's obviously to take advantage of free Warp Lances and use the unit as dedicated AT, I'd pull some casting casting dice from elsewhere to make the 150 pt investment worth it.
SHUPPET wrote: Since the only thing anyone can use to defend the Zo's is purely anecdotal (except for Spoletta who is doing something different) I'm going to make the also anecdotal statement that in my experience, bad players will pick the wrong target like shooting at a Zo because he has an AV10 lance, and the good players will know which risks to take knowing that 3 Zoeys, in range will land a Lance every second turn, and will waste all their warp charge that they brought to the table doing so. They will also know that Zoeys are one of the tankier things in the army. This is what the numbers say they do and a smart player will have at least a good idea on how this will play out. Anecdotal accounts might have Zoanthropes acheiving something different, or players making foolish decisions based on misconceptions about their firepower, or Crones firing 20 times and not doing a single HP.
These are all very nice stories, but building around anecdotal experiences is terrible justification (even to yourself) for choosing the best unit for your army. A good player can seperate the times that the model under performed and the times that dice under performed.
As to Spoletta, can you share the math for Zo's in a 3 man platform? Do I just multiply the percentage by 3/2 or does changing the amount of shots at the start have a deeper affect on the math? And can you share the math with say 4 or 5 casting dice? If I'm bringing Zopes as a multiple more costly unit it's obviously to take advantage of free Warp Lances and use the unit as dedicated AT, I'd pull some casting casting dice from elsewhere to make the 150 pt investment worth it.
Multiplying by 3/2 can be reasonable a approximation, but if you want later today when i'm back from work i'll deliver the exact math.
SHUPPET wrote: Since the only thing anyone can use to defend the Zo's is purely anecdotal (except for Spoletta who is doing something different) I'm going to make the also anecdotal statement that in my experience, bad players will pick the wrong target like shooting at a Zo because he has an AV10 lance, and the good players will know which risks to take knowing that 3 Zoeys, in range will land a Lance every second turn, and will waste all their warp charge that they brought to the table doing so. They will also know that Zoeys are one of the tankier things in the army. This is what the numbers say they do and a smart player will have at least a good idea on how this will play out. Anecdotal accounts might have Zoanthropes acheiving something different, or players making foolish decisions based on misconceptions about their firepower, or Crones firing 20 times and not doing a single HP.
These are all very nice stories, but building around anecdotal experiences is terrible justification (even to yourself) for choosing the best unit for your army. A good player can seperate the times that the model under performed and the times that dice under performed.
Except I posted an anecdotal account that broadly supports the math. I mentioned that the random nature of Tyranid powers (combined with range or other restrictions) often means not all your powers are viable or effective at a given time. For example, it's very plausible to end up with Psychic Scream on a slow unit, roll The Horror against Fearless opposition, have Onslaught available when that extra D6" won't make much difference to weapon range, and so on. In fact you have to be pretty lucky to avoid this situation.
In practice this has caused me to use 4 or 5 dice for Warp Lance, with any additional active charges making the power much harder to Deny. While I have been very lucky to never roll Perils, activating powers with 70-80% odds isn't exactly a stretch. It's not like I'm claiming that the one time my Hive Guard glanced down a Land Raider is justification for taking always them against Land Raiders. I'm saying that something with a fairly high success rate tends to succeed fairly often. If anything, your anecdotal account of "I haven't had a single success" is more misleading.
But let's change the subject!
I just finished painting up a big pile of Warriors I scored a while ago on ebay. Because sometimes I prefer to play Warhammer instead of Mathhammer, I'd like to play a list that will use the majority of these guys as they look pretty awesome en mass. Here is what I have on the bench:
~Warriors~
8 with Deathspitter + ScyTals
4 with Devourer + ScyTals
2 with Devourer + Rending Claws
4 with Biocannon + ScyTals (3 Barbed Strangler, 1 VC)
~Shrikes~
1 with twin Boneswords
5 with Rending Claws
I guess the wings will count as ScyTals
1 Prime with Deathspitter + Lashwhip/Bonesword
1 Prime with converted Miasma Cannon
This comes to around 1100pts WYSIWYG.
What should I fill the remaining 700-800pts of my list with to best complement these dudes? Obviously this isn't super-competitive, but at the same time I'm not planning on fielding Pyrovores and the like. I'm torn between sticking with an all mid-sized-bugs theme, supporting them with Hive Guard, Venoms and Zoans. On the other hand I could put down a few Fexes with those points (last month I finished painting my 9th one for a recent Apoc game) to absorb fire. There are a couple of decent formations that use Warriors + Fexes too.
Except I posted an anecdotal account that broadly supports the math. I mentioned that the random nature of Tyranid powers (combined with range or other restrictions) often means not all your powers are viable
Indeed you did, except that misses the underlying point BEHIND the math, is that if you arent building to be capitalising on the Tyranid Powers, you shouldn't be taking them. Yes, if you have a bunch of crap powers, Warp Lance might be the best option. However, this doesn't make it any better or any more likely to get results - it just means you've wasted points on Zoanthropes. Warriors for starters give a much nicer Synapse support in that they provide pinning and a BIG melee threat, every game. In effect:
or have Onslaught available when that extra D6" won't make much difference to weapon range, and so on
This is a situation that should never come up. Pushing any of our close range Blunderbuss MCs into shooting range of the DZ turn 1 is huge. If they are deployed backfield it can secure second turn shooting on something that wouldn't be in range till turn 3. If you are playing a list with units that don't get a massive bonus to efficiency and threat range from Onslaught every game, then you shouldn't be taking Zoeys. They don't fill any role other than Synapse, with 1 random roll on a table with 3-4 useless results. They need to be looked at as additional rolls for Onslaught, with Catalyst to mitigate damage the times you don't, Paroxysm and the Horror being acceptable situationally, with the bonus of being a Synapse peg. Taking them for Synapse and hoping you roll Catalyst with a 20% chance to, or hoping to get all 3 in 18" range of a tank for two turns and rolling a 6 to explode, well doing this just cements the nerf to your army that IB can have. Synapse has now hurt you massively, because a lot of the time, in effect you'll have brought a list 150 pts smaller than your opponents - Zopes without Catalyst aren't doing gak, certainly not 200 pts worth of gak, or 6 warriors with 2x cannons worth of gak, if you will.
In practice this has caused me to use 4 or 5 dice for Warp Lance, with any additional active charges making the power much harder to Deny. While I have been very lucky to never roll Perils, activating powers with 70-80% odds
Ok, so you've spent 12-15 warp dice to generate two hits, assuming all succeed. Each sqad combined has brought a total of 6 dice to the pool. You've just taken all the dice from your Flyrants and your randomly generated dice on top the 6 they brought, and you still aren't in the cost effective zone. You've got a likely 2 hits for 150 pts, and your Flyrants are worse. They already have 4 rolls and cross field mobility - Flyrants are practically guaranteed to have something worth casting. For the games that they don't, blowing more points on a conduit to use their Warp Dice for Warp Lances is not very good justification - you are compounding the issue.
Also, about where you said my statement is anecdotal - that was the point, I even specifically stated that it was an anecdotal recount, saying I haven't succeeded a single time is just as irrelevant to a competitive discussion as saying it never gets denied, or that I get far better results / lucky rolls than the statistics say I should. For every person who gets a good roll someone else gets a bad one - it's the nature of the game. Using lucky rolls as justification to ignore the logic that it shouldn't happen - by all means, take whichever units you like the flavour of most, but in a competitive discussion, such fables are not a better quality argument than actual math statistics and logic.
DarkStarSabre wrote: So much confusion guys! Guess I'm sticking with the third flyrant. The jy2 has spoken!
I think he was recommending a Dakka Flyrant rather than a Close combat one. He can probably give better advice than me because he has more experience with the Barbed Haridule.
This is a great thread. I've been quietly following it pretty much since codex release. Something I don't understand is running zoanthropes (and venomthropes too) as broods of 1. Take running 4 solo as opposed to 2x2. Its 8 power dice as opposed to 4 and 4 rolls on the spell chart opposed to 2 which is great. Do you guys ever run into an issue with kill points though? 4 W on a 3++ unit is somewhat durable but it doesn't seem terribly hard to kill a lone zoanthropes.
What are you doing to prevent the opponent from grabbing easy VPs off of them?
SHUPPET wrote: Since the only thing anyone can use to defend the Zo's is purely anecdotal (except for Spoletta who is doing something different) I'm going to make the also anecdotal statement that in my experience, bad players will pick the wrong target like shooting at a Zo because he has an AV10 lance, and the good players will know which risks to take knowing that 3 Zoeys, in range will land a Lance every second turn, and will waste all their warp charge that they brought to the table doing so. They will also know that Zoeys are one of the tankier things in the army. This is what the numbers say they do and a smart player will have at least a good idea on how this will play out. Anecdotal accounts might have Zoanthropes acheiving something different, or players making foolish decisions based on misconceptions about their firepower, or Crones firing 20 times and not doing a single HP.
These are all very nice stories, but building around anecdotal experiences is terrible justification (even to yourself) for choosing the best unit for your army. A good player can seperate the times that the model under performed and the times that dice under performed.
Except I posted an anecdotal account that broadly supports the math. I mentioned that the random nature of Tyranid powers (combined with range or other restrictions) often means not all your powers are viable or effective at a given time. For example, it's very plausible to end up with Psychic Scream on a slow unit, roll The Horror against Fearless opposition, have Onslaught available when that extra D6" won't make much difference to weapon range, and so on. In fact you have to be pretty lucky to avoid this situation.
In practice this has caused me to use 4 or 5 dice for Warp Lance, with any additional active charges making the power much harder to Deny. While I have been very lucky to never roll Perils, activating powers with 70-80% odds isn't exactly a stretch. It's not like I'm claiming that the one time my Hive Guard glanced down a Land Raider is justification for taking always them against Land Raiders. I'm saying that something with a fairly high success rate tends to succeed fairly often. If anything, your anecdotal account of "I haven't had a single success" is more misleading.
But let's change the subject!
I just finished painting up a big pile of Warriors I scored a while ago on ebay. Because sometimes I prefer to play Warhammer instead of Mathhammer, I'd like to play a list that will use the majority of these guys as they look pretty awesome en mass. Here is what I have on the bench:
~Warriors~
8 with Deathspitter + ScyTals
4 with Devourer + ScyTals
2 with Devourer + Rending Claws
4 with Biocannon + ScyTals (3 Barbed Strangler, 1 VC)
~Shrikes~
1 with twin Boneswords
5 with Rending Claws
I guess the wings will count as ScyTals
1 Prime with Deathspitter + Lashwhip/Bonesword
1 Prime with converted Miasma Cannon
This comes to around 1100pts WYSIWYG.
What should I fill the remaining 700-800pts of my list with to best complement these dudes? Obviously this isn't super-competitive, but at the same time I'm not planning on fielding Pyrovores and the like. I'm torn between sticking with an all mid-sized-bugs theme, supporting them with Hive Guard, Venoms and Zoans. On the other hand I could put down a few Fexes with those points (last month I finished painting my 9th one for a recent Apoc game) to absorb fire. There are a couple of decent formations that use Warriors + Fexes too.
Tell me Dakka Hive Mind, what do you think?
If you want to stick with a theme, I would fill it out with termagants, rippers, and a few carnifexan here and there. Go for a living tide style list. You should have Synapse covered pretty well, so IB shouldn't be a problem. Besides the rippers it would also be a pretty shooty list, so Carnifex gun platforms would fit the visual well.
The good thing is that they take a decent amount of firepower to die (usually) so if your opponent shots at single models, that's that much less firepower at your other units.
DarkStarSabre wrote: So much confusion guys! Guess I'm sticking with the third flyrant. The jy2 has spoken!
I think he was recommending a Dakka Flyrant rather than a Close combat one. He can probably give better advice than me because he has more experience with the Barbed Haridule.
That would really depend on the person and his local meta. Whereas I generally advocate dakka flyrants as the best all-purpose Tyranid unit, if he feels that the reaper flyrant is more necessary to deal with the armies in his locale, then that's really up to him. But 3 dakka flyrants and a barbed hierodule do give you pretty good board control.
Obsidorox wrote: This is a great thread. I've been quietly following it pretty much since codex release. Something I don't understand is running zoanthropes (and venomthropes too) as broods of 1. Take running 4 solo as opposed to 2x2. Its 8 power dice as opposed to 4 and 4 rolls on the spell chart opposed to 2 which is great. Do you guys ever run into an issue with kill points though? 4 W on a 3++ unit is somewhat durable but it doesn't seem terribly hard to kill a lone zoanthropes.
What are you doing to prevent the opponent from grabbing easy VPs off of them?
So what are the advantages of solo zoans over a unit of 2 zoans?
1. Slightly easier to cast Warp Blast due to needing fewer warp dice.
2. The unit is more resilient, especially in VP missions.
So what the the advantages of solo zoans over a unit of 2 zoans?
1. More warp charges, as in double the warp charges.
2. More psychic powers.
3. You can spread Synapse around.
4. Harder to deny. For a unit of 2, you only need 1 successful deny to stop them. For 2 units of 1, you need 2 denies.
5. Force the enemy to overkill. 1 unit of devastators can just as easily kill 1 unit of 2 zoans as they can 1 unit of 1. However, with the unit of 1, they are wasting shots as the excess unsaved wounds are wasted.
6. 5 out of 6 missions are Objectives-based. All maelstrom missions are objectives-based. 1 unit of 2 can only claim/deny 1 objective. Solo zoans can claim/deny multiple objectives.
I really see almost no reason to take multiple zoans as opposed to solo zoans.
Obsidorox wrote: This is a great thread. I've been quietly following it pretty much since codex release. Something I don't understand is running zoanthropes (and venomthropes too) as broods of 1. Take running 4 solo as opposed to 2x2. Its 8 power dice as opposed to 4 and 4 rolls on the spell chart opposed to 2 which is great. Do you guys ever run into an issue with kill points though? 4 W on a 3++ unit is somewhat durable but it doesn't seem terribly hard to kill a lone zoanthropes.
What are you doing to prevent the opponent from grabbing easy VPs off of them?
Kill points is kind of a stupid mission who's outcome is generally predetermined based on list building. Played straight I generally lose kill point games, but with a few modifications, you can make kill points work better.
Option #1: Make sure both armies have the same number of available kill points. 90% of my opponents are fine with this. The most common mechanic is to either force combat squading of marines or just pick certain units to be worth multiple kill points. If you have 16 kill points and your opponent only has 10, allow him to nominate 6 units that are worth 2 kill points each. My opinion is that this makes a relatively good game.
Option #2: Use kill points in a list building points sort of way. Rather than valuing all units the same, value them based on their unit cost. So killing a dakkafex is as valuable as killing 3 zoenthropes. This isn't quite as ideal.
Even if you use these modifications, Tyranids are generally going to have a major disadvantage in Kill points games (because of short range shooting). Meanwhile, gunlines like Tau, IG or certain Eldar and Marine builds are always going to have an advantage. Deathstars and LOW are going to have a huge advantage. I think that is why I generally see people moving away from kill point missions. Many Tournaments are designing their mission packs in a way to include kill points in an effort to comp the game in favor of gun line / deathstars a bit because they feel like players of those types of builds are more likely to attend their tournaments, and/or be upset if they don't have that sort of advantage. They are probably right, but it frustrates players that don't play those builds.
There is also a certain degree of Kill points feeling more satisfying. The other day I won a game against Marine Gunline. All I had left on the table were 1 Genestealer and 3 Termagaunts that failed synapse and were running away. My Genestealer had the relic, so it didn't matter that 60% of the marines were left. I won that game, but my opponent felt like he had won it, because I was 1 turn from being tabled.
DarkStarSabre wrote: So much confusion guys! Guess I'm sticking with the third flyrant. The jy2 has spoken!
I think he was recommending a Dakka Flyrant rather than a Close combat one. He can probably give better advice than me because he has more experience with the Barbed Haridule.
That would really depend on the person and his local meta. Whereas I generally advocate dakka flyrants as the best all-purpose Tyranid unit, if he feels that the reaper flyrant is more necessary to deal with the armies in his locale, then that's really up to him. But 3 dakka flyrants and a barbed hierodule do give you pretty good board control.
As it stands I could, at a pinch pull off the LW/BS and replace with Twin Devourers....but....really...
Really I'm waiting to get hold of a pair of Hive Tyrant wings and a Hive Tyrant torso so I can build my last Flyrant. Currently have the legs, head and tail spare from the kit....
So if any 'nid players really want to help out I'd not say no. Wings and a Torso are a pain to find as I need both rather than one or the other.
I also like the assassin as he's something of a unique twist. Most people take Dakka - which can beat up small units on its own but to be frank most tooled up SM/CSM/etc character types will do a dirty on a Flyrant. Sure, he's AP 2 but lacks trimmings, only has his base attacks and no fancy shenanigans. The Assassin Flyrant has much higher initiative and the potential for ID on him.
I really see almost no reason to take multiple zoans as opposed to solo zoans.
The main reason, in spite of 7E, is still the FOC. There aren't any non-Apoc formations for our decent Elite options, so unless you're building the rest of your force with 2 primary detatchments then 3 Zoanthropes means no Venoms or Hive Guard.
While KP missions may not be too common, don't forget about First Blood. Single Zoans aren't really any harder to take down than a pair of Space Marines for most weapons, and that's basically a freebie VP for your opponent.
The psychic activation thing also works both ways. Three units of 1 Zoan will need 12 warp charge to reliably activate their shooting attacks. One unit of three can get away with 4-5 dice for the same number of shots. I guess that part depends on how much you plan to use them for shooting though. Granted, you're generating less charge too, but its easier to find extra 2 dice for one unit than to find 6 extra dice for three.
tag8833 wrote: Many Tournaments are designing their mission packs in a way to include kill points in an effort to comp the game in favor of gun line / deathstars a bit because they feel like players of those types of builds are more likely to attend their tournaments, and/or be upset if they don't have that sort of advantage.
Quoted for truth. Just like how some are banning most of Stronghold Assault but allowing Skyshields, easily the most broken fortification. Gotta protect those beatsticks...
I think 7th really helps Tyranids (and other armies and builds) in a number of ways, but unfortunately on the tourney scene there are some parties out there who aren't inclined to allow our bugs to take full advantage.
Obsidorox wrote: This is a great thread. I've been quietly following it pretty much since codex release. Something I don't understand is running zoanthropes (and venomthropes too) as broods of 1. Take running 4 solo as opposed to 2x2. Its 8 power dice as opposed to 4 and 4 rolls on the spell chart opposed to 2 which is great. Do you guys ever run into an issue with kill points though? 4 W on a 3++ unit is somewhat durable but it doesn't seem terribly hard to kill a lone zoanthropes.
What are you doing to prevent the opponent from grabbing easy VPs off of them?
It kinda depends on your "meta". I run Zoeys in x2 Broods...Venos as well. But I've posted lists a plenty that use solo 'thropes. It just depends on what you local environment is like... So...try running them singled, and change if that does not work well...
Lots of firepower, lots of single units so kill points are a weakness. But its also a lot of things to have to overkill and shoot at. Plenty of ways to kill most any kind of vehicle.
I have about 20 points to spare. I could drop a zoan and a ripper swarm and pickup a Warrior brood for wider synapse and securing deployment side objectives. Depending on tourny rules I could drop the crone and pickup a third Flyrant, although I only have a WYSIWYG Reaper Tyrant to fill that role. I could also pick up a 6th Carnifex, but would lose synapse sources.
Iechine! I like...my big concern with that list though is the Rippers. I keep wanting to take them myself by the realisation that S6 will ID them to comical effect. With the amount of S6 flamers or ranged multishot S6+ weapons....I almost feel they're a horrible weakness in themselves.
The Carnifexes look promising though...I don't have that many lone fexes myself so my varaint of the list would be say, 2 broods of termagants?
I like them because they dont run and they are really easy to hide with such a low profile. Ive just gotten tired of Gants not carrying their weight through the end game when things get messy. You're right about the ID weakness, but consider that the alternative is roughly 4x10 units of Termagants that have to walk up the field AND not flee when out of synapse.
I need to buy two more Carnifexes, which I guess Ill do tomorrow. I think if I played it Id constantly be casting dominion to keep everyone corralled.
Iechine wrote: I like them because they dont run and they are really easy to hide with such a low profile. Ive just gotten tired of Gants not carrying their weight through the end game when things get messy. You're right about the ID weakness, but consider that the alternative is roughly 4x10 units of Termagants that have to walk up the field AND not flee when out of synapse.
I need to buy two more Carnifexes, which I guess Ill do tomorrow. I think if I played it Id constantly be casting dominion to keep everyone corralled.
I suppose it depends largely on the local meta - if you know there's not a lot of S6+ floating around it's ok...but here? Well, it's a mostly SMs with other armies fielding things like Vindicators, S6 flame templates or blast templates galore.
Really solid list. I think you know what you are doing with it and it doesn't look like it can be improved much. Congrats.
I personally don't like running more than 2 Flyrants, they are so pricey even if the first 2 are very necessary. If I had to make one suggestion it would be dropping the third Flyrant. Especially since he basically costs 80 pts extra in termagant tax, as without him you could be taking a Living Artillery Formation to give your Bivores and Exocrine Twin-Linked Blasts and Pinning, and the much larger threat of Warriors, with at least 1 twin-linked Pinning Venom Cannon. You could also take a Tyrannofex or another Exocrine or something with the left over points, these things are also great utility for Onslaught and Master of Ambush.
However, if you want the third Flyrant I can completely understand that, and its just a personal preference of my own, like I said you have a very cohorent list and obviously know what you are doing, and if three Flyrants is what you want, I honestly don't think that you can do it any better than this. Great list.
EDIT: I don't play at over 1850 pts ever, and at 2000 pts the extra Flyrant may be more important. I generally don't like Bastion at anything lower than 2000, but at 2000 I'd definitely take it. I actually have a 3rd Flyrant and a Bastion painted up that both go largely unused - I'm going to be giving your list a go next time someone asks me if its ok to bring 2000 pts for a battle.
tag8833 wrote: Many Tournaments are designing their mission packs in a way to include kill points in an effort to comp the game in favor of gun line / deathstars a bit because they feel like players of those types of builds are more likely to attend their tournaments, and/or be upset if they don't have that sort of advantage.
Quoted for truth. Just like how some are banning most of Stronghold Assault but allowing Skyshields, easily the most broken fortification. Gotta protect those beatsticks...
I think 7th really helps Tyranids (and other armies and builds) in a number of ways, but unfortunately on the tourney scene there are some parties out there who aren't inclined to allow our bugs to take full advantage.
I still think that orks and nids should have access to a second CAD, our units just cost too little. When you can fill an elite slot with 40 points (45 realistically, no one takes our flamy mascots), a FA with 60 (even 15 with spore mines) and an heavy with 35 you feel that not allowing any faction to a second CAD is a one sided decision that favors some codex over others. Unfortunately tournament rules are dictated by major tourneys, which can't risk too much, so they will cater to the usual competitive players, which will bring the usual competitive lists. Anything that risks to alien part of the player base, even if it could be a sound change, cannot be done, so i don't think we will ever see tournament changes to level the play field.
That being said, we have really large REALLY large Tourney legal FOC formations, and I believe Orks have a larger FOC to begin with and their dataslates are inbound. I think it's kind of fair from an FOC standpoint for us at least atm.
In fact the problem with FOC is tipically fixed by taking either skyblight or bio blast.
Actually thinking about it a bit more i finally found why we really struggle with FOC and why we should be allowed a second CAD:
We do not have any out of foc purchase i.e. dedicated transports. Those usually take a good chunk of points in the majority of competitive lists, while each and every one of our points must go into the FOC.
That's true. But mostly to blame for that is the fact that they put the tiniest amount of effort possible into the writing of our dex. I want Mycetic Spores back ;(
Seeing all the love for Rippers, I've got to ask. Does anyone have actual in game experience where they outperformed gaunts?
I've run them in about 15 games and 15 of 15 times I've regretted it. Sure they deep strike, but they also scatter and mishap. If you deep strike them anywhere in the front-field your opponent will have something to kill them with. If you deep strike them in the back field, you might as well have taken gaunts. Except gaunts can be used to bubble wrap on turn 1 while rippers cannot.
I understand the theory hammer that leads you all to think they are a viable unit, but all of that theory hammer is dependent on not taking into account how your opponent might react. It doesn't work in an actual game.
tag8833 wrote: Seeing all the love for Rippers, I've got to ask. Does anyone have actual in game experience where they outperformed gaunts?
I've run them in about 15 games and 15 of 15 times I've regretted it. Sure they deep strike, but they also scatter and mishap. If you deep strike them anywhere in the front-field your opponent will have something to kill them with. If you deep strike them in the back field, you might as well have taken gaunts. Except gaunts can be used to bubble wrap on turn 1 while rippers cannot.
I understand the theory hammer that leads you all to think they are a viable unit, but all of that theory hammer is dependent on not taking into account how your opponent might react. It doesn't work in an actual game.
When I use them I use them in conjunction with Gants, press with the Gants and a HQ Tervigon spawning away. And leave the Rippers on a homefiels objective, leave them out of sight and don't mention them again.
Good list for a triple Tyrant, but asI am not a fan of the triple tyrant I would swap the second CAD out for a Living Attillery node and maybe a Mawloc.
tag8833 wrote: Seeing all the love for Rippers, I've got to ask. Does anyone have actual in game experience where they outperformed gaunts?
I've run them in about 15 games and 15 of 15 times I've regretted it. Sure they deep strike, but they also scatter and mishap. If you deep strike them anywhere in the front-field your opponent will have something to kill them with. If you deep strike them in the back field, you might as well have taken gaunts. Except gaunts can be used to bubble wrap on turn 1 while rippers cannot.
I understand the theory hammer that leads you all to think they are a viable unit, but all of that theory hammer is dependent on not taking into account how your opponent might react. It doesn't work in an actual game.
I definitely prefer Gants, however if I see Rippers in somebody's list I don't bother mentioning it, barely a points difference and if they prefer Rippers more power to them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good list for a triple Tyrant, but asI am not a fan of the triple tyrant I would swap the second CAD out for a Living Attillery node and maybe a Mawloc.
Yeah do this and drop the bastion and you literally have my 1850 pt list. Not bad advice here. But personal preference is a thing too, so up to you.
Next Sat I get to play in one of the biggest games(for me) of all time. 2800pts per player, 3v3. It will be Tyranids(me), Chaos Undivided, Blood Angles/IG VS Deathwing/IG, IG/Imperial Fists, and Tau/Farsight. Should be a blast with 3 Baneblades, 1 Warhound, 1 Tigershark, and my Harridan on the table.
My list is below, points scrubbed out to be safe, and minimized to not show full entries. Basically I am the meat/bait of our Army lol. Standard Dakka-Flyrants without E grubs, Crone, and Harridan will keep the airway clear...after killing that pesky Tigershark. The two allied detachments are Endless Swarm and Wrecker Node. Nothing says HI! like bringing back that huge swarm you just nuked...and my cranifexes all wailing on your tank. If you have any questions let me know and be glad to explain what and why I'm taking something.
P.S. I took the rippers cause everyone is talking about them
I will post up the battle report with pics after it goes down!
foto69man wrote: Next Sat I get to play in one of the biggest games(for me) of all time. 2800pts per player, 3v3. It will be Tyranids(me), Chaos Undivided, Blood Angles/IG VS Deathwing/IG, IG/Imperial Fists, and Tau/Farsight. Should be a blast with 3 Baneblades, 1 Warhound, 1 Tigershark, and my Harridan on the table.
My list is below, points scrubbed out to be safe, and minimized to not show full entries. Basically I am the meat/bait of our Army lol. Standard Dakka-Flyrants without E grubs, Crone, and Harridan will keep the airway clear...after killing that pesky Tigershark. The two allied detachments are Endless Swarm and Wrecker Node. Nothing says HI! like bringing back that huge swarm you just nuked...and my cranifexes all wailing on your tank. If you have any questions let me know and be glad to explain what and why I'm taking something.
P.S. I took the rippers cause everyone is talking about them
I will post up the battle report with pics after it goes down!
Living artillery is 3 units of HGaunts + 3 units of TGaunts + 1 unit of warriors. You only have 2 Units of TGaunts.
I've been following this thread for a while and am yet to see any list that includes Hive Guard. What's the deal here? Are they not very good?
I quite like the idea of impaler cannons hitting the side armor of vehicles from 24" away. People will expose flanks of vehicles forgetting they ignore line of sight.
Also, T6 makes them seem quite durable.
Anyone used them with any success?
Raveners also never get a look-in. Seem like they'd be decent at clearing objectives in 7th when people seem to leave small weak units guarding them.
foto69man wrote: Next Sat I get to play in one of the biggest games(for me) of all time. 2800pts per player, 3v3. It will be Tyranids(me), Chaos Undivided, Blood Angles/IG VS Deathwing/IG, IG/Imperial Fists, and Tau/Farsight. Should be a blast with 3 Baneblades, 1 Warhound, 1 Tigershark, and my Harridan on the table.
My list is below, points scrubbed out to be safe, and minimized to not show full entries. Basically I am the meat/bait of our Army lol. Standard Dakka-Flyrants without E grubs, Crone, and Harridan will keep the airway clear...after killing that pesky Tigershark. The two allied detachments are Endless Swarm and Wrecker Node. Nothing says HI! like bringing back that huge swarm you just nuked...and my cranifexes all wailing on your tank. If you have any questions let me know and be glad to explain what and why I'm taking something.
P.S. I took the rippers cause everyone is talking about them
I will post up the battle report with pics after it goes down!
Living artillery is 3 units of HGaunts + 3 units of TGaunts + 1 unit of warriors. You only have 2 Units of TGaunts.
In before "this one says 2 broods" controversy!
*Edit, Deathleaper'd.
ictoabu wrote: I've been following this thread for a while and am yet to see any list that includes Hive Guard. What's the deal here? Are they not very good?
I quite like the idea of impaler cannons hitting the side armor of vehicles from 24" away. People will expose flanks of vehicles forgetting they ignore line of sight.
Also, T6 makes them seem quite durable.
Anyone used them with any success?
Raveners also never get a look-in. Seem like they'd be decent at clearing objectives in 7th when people seem to leave small weak units guarding them.
The drop in BS to 3 from 4, combined with the increase in price by 5 ppm is a bit harsh, and those elites slots can easily go to lone Zoanthropes/Venomthropes.
That said, there are ways of making them work. T6 is nothing to sneeze at when you have lots of other T6 around, and ignoring line of sight (and cover) is awesome.I enjoy pairing them with my Living Artillery Node, ideally using them to crack open a transport and then wiping out whatever spills out with the Barbed Strangler/Spore Mines/Bioplasmic Cannon blasts.
They are also one of the easier units to run alongside the Swarmlord if you feel like taking him, as they nerf to their BS can be mitigated a little by giving them PE.
Finally, if you can get them Skyfire somehow, they become a fairly dangerous anti-flier turret.
I think Hive Guard are very overlooked, especially in 7th where transports are everywhere as is the improved jink.
How exactly do you give 1 skyfire? I never would as we have Crones and Flyrants being far better at that role, but how do you give them Skyfire I cant work it out
I prefer to use Hive Guard in Kill Teams- with a smaller board and plenty of terrain to hide behind they become very hard to deal with. Having one the highest toughness of Kill Team units doesn't hurt either. They do double duty wrecking vehicles and plinking away at models out of line of sight. AP4 is great- quite a few marine players take scouts so you always have a target.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: I think Hive Guard are very overlooked, especially in 7th where transports are everywhere as is the improved jink.
How exactly do you give 1 skyfire? I never would as we have Crones and Flyrants being far better at that role, but how do you give them Skyfire I cant work it out
Doesn't their shock cannon have skyfire? I hardly look at it so I don't remember clearly.
SHUPPET wrote: How exactly do you give 1 skyfire? I never would as we have Crones and Flyrants being far better at that role, but how do you give them Skyfire I cant work it out
Mysterious objectives #4 I believe is the skyfire nexus. It is actually an extremely devastating thing to roll up now that everything counts as a scoring unit... I saw a game with one of our local 'nids where-in a Venom sitting on top of one just mowed down all his flying monsters.
Sinful Hero wrote: Doesn't their shock cannon have skyfire? I hardly look at it so I don't remember clearly.
No, the Shock Cannon is basically Electroshock Grubs with a small blast replacing the flamer template.
ictoabu wrote: I've been following this thread for a while and am yet to see any list that includes Hive Guard. What's the deal here? Are they not very good?
I quite like the idea of impaler cannons hitting the side armor of vehicles from 24" away. People will expose flanks of vehicles forgetting they ignore line of sight.
Also, T6 makes them seem quite durable.
Anyone used them with any success?
Raveners also never get a look-in. Seem like they'd be decent at clearing objectives in 7th when people seem to leave small weak units guarding them.
Hive Guard are exelent...but it's a slot usage thing. You only have 3 slots (usually) and Zoeys are "must have", and so are Venothropes...no room. Add in that Hive Guard cost more as well... If you run 2x CAD. Then they look like a viable choice. Raveners are a "love'em, or don't" unit some folks like them...I don't Its because of Synapse, they need it. And for the same general cost I can toss in Shrikes, who can also take a Cannon, and Flesh Hooks. I'd suggest running Proxies before you spend cash...
Looking up the endless swarm formation, it occurred to me that the change in Split Fire might make Bioblast Node a bit more attractive. It is a great way to run gobs of dakka-fexes.
SHUPPET wrote: Zoeys are far from a "must have" depending on your list, you can easily slot Hive Guard in the elites if you build your list around it.
On Average 3 Hive guard are going to do .5 HP to AV 14, 1 HP to AV 13, 1.5 HP to AV 12 . 2 HP to AV 11, 2.5 HP to AV 10. They are best employed against skimmers (Wave Serpents, Necron vehicles, Skyrays, Dark Eldar).
I don't think Zoeys are a fair comparison. I think Hive guard stack up against a Dakkafex w/ Adrenals (same points). On Average Dakkafex shooting does 0 to AV 14, 0 to AV 13, 1.5 to AV 12, 3 to AV 11, 4.5 to AV 10.
Hive guard do a little better against Heavy Armor, but Dakkafex does better against light armor. Hive guard a preferable if the Opponent is a skimmer and can jink.
However, where the Dakkafex emerges as the clear victor is in assault. It does 2 HP on average to AV 14, 2.78 to AV13, 3.56 to AV 12, 4.33 to AV 11, 4.67 to AV 10.
Hive Guard have a slightly longer range, and slightly more survivability, but the Dakkafex is a better vehicle popper. Unless you are expecting skimmers that is the way to go.
I never said Zopes were a good comparison just that they could be dropped to make room in a list wanting HG, it was a response to the statement that they are a must have, when in reality they are a unit you need to think very hard about before including.
So those maths basically just say that HG either tie or seriously outshoot Carnifex against almost any vehicle in the game, other than some AV10 Side Armor as I think everything else has jink. They do it with 6 T6 W instead of 4, ignoring any natural cover as well, from an extra 6" range and can do it completely out of Line of sight. Worth mentioning that they still put 2 HP on a skimmer or Rhino in assault as well. They also don't take up a HS slot.
I think Carnifex is by far the better model. HG have their merits though especially if you don't have anymore Heavy slots open.
If i could get some elite slots i'd actually try pyrovores first. I've got a pyrovore conversion in mind that i would really like to try and if you play against orks they are actually useful. If only acid blood worked on ID and they costed a bit less...
I never said Zopes were a good comparison just that they could be dropped to make room in a list wanting HG, it was a response to the statement that they are a must have, when in reality they are a unit you need to think very hard about before including.
So those maths basically just say that HG either tie or seriously outshoot Carnifex against almost any vehicle in the game, other than some AV10 Side Armor as I think everything else has jink. They do it with 6 T6 W instead of 4, ignoring any natural cover as well, from an extra 6" range and can do it completely out of Line of sight. Worth mentioning that they still put 2 HP on a skimmer or Rhino in assault as well. They also don't take up a HS slot.
I think Carnifex is by far the better model. HG have their merits though especially if you don't have anymore Heavy slots open.
This reminds me that i still owe you some in detail zoan math, so here it is:
3 zoans firing at bs4 would score the following hits:
3 hits 29.6% of the times
2 hits 44.4% of the times
1 hit 22.2% of the times
0 hits 3% of the times
Those hits would translate in:
3 penetrating hits 8.7% of the time
2 penetrating hits 32.8% of the time
1 penetrating hit 41% of the time
Sum them up and you'll see that you have an almost guaranted penetration against AV 14. Now for what those penetrating hits mean at AP2.
Chance to explode your target at least once 20.5%
Chance to immobilize your target at least once 20.5%
Chance to destroy the weapon of your target at least once 20.5%
Chance to stun your target at least once 20.5%
Chance to shake your target at least once 40.1%
Now, since this is now in percent form and no longer in average results you can take those numbers and multiply them by your successful manifesting chances and you'll get the exact results without approximations.
Thanks for that...I'm not an apple user...so only have the ebook, and must have missed the Dakka discussion. Oh well, I'm sure I can find an extra 80pts lying around. Thanks!!!
Ouch... That's a pretty sparse looking table there. I imagine the ability to jink will probably help keep the big bugs alive, but those poor Gargoyles are just going to be cannon fodder...
Strat_N8 wrote: Ouch... That's a pretty sparse looking table there. I imagine the ability to jink will probably help keep the big bugs alive, but those poor Gargoyles are just going to be cannon fodder...
My opponent does have some experience playing against Skyblight. My guess is that he will NOT try to finish off the gargoyles too early. As for jinking, his deathstar ignores cover due to the "buffsuit" bodyguard (they are also twin-linked and have Monster Hunter). The bomb is scary against our bugs.
When I originally got my new Tyranids codex, I fell in love with the Hive Guards. I like the models and I like guns that shoot around corners. As I was building a list almost from scratch, it looked like a no-brainer...
I don't have any, and it makes me sad. But it comes down to simple point conservation, synapse, and FOC issues. My over-1250 list includes a minimal Skyblight, so that leaves me tight on points and a bit light in synapse. Two Zoeys in solo packs, hiding behind terrain (I am modifying a Bastion to be suitably Tyranid converted that a Zoey can easily hide behind) and a Venom in the Bastion shooting a heavy bolter (gonna use a deathspitter for modeling to show it is being converted) and giving the Shroud to peeps. The other Zoey goes with other troops. That is tactically strong for the points. And, unfortunately, leaves me no slots available for my HG.
If I come across some extra cash, I might try a HG-included list. I can get some extra synapse from a squad of Warriors, after all. I hate being pigeonholed into a list because it is "the best," and, due to our current placement out of the 'top-tier' codexes, it actually gives us the freedom to try crazy ideas. If the odds are against you, try something insane! Heck, a Hive Commander'd outflanking set of HG, luck be with you, can do some serious damage to a vehicle-based hard-point... if you are running the shockers, it can do real damage to even a Land raider! Enough to make your opponent change targeting priorities, and any time you can force a revision on their plans, it is to your advantage (until the dice betray you...)
It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...
And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?
Primary Detachment
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants
3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike
Biovore
Trygon - Toxin Sacs, Regeneration
Barbed Hierodule
Secondary Detachment
Flyrant
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.
Shingen wrote: I never use hive guard or zoans anymore, waste of pts.
I agree with the zoans -- much prefer to mitigate synapse issues with list building and not try and make our psychic powers work in the face of the new paradigm. Also never had good luck with zoans as shooting platform since 4ed and they are even more sketchy now.
Have to disagree on hive guard though. I see way too many eldar skimmer armies and return of mech to discount the value of hive guard. And being able to shoot out of LOS is like having the ultimate cover save. The full on ignore cover is also nice, it doesn't make up for BS3 and price increase but it helps ease the pain a bit.
As far as hive guard vs dakka fexes. Take both. They work amazingly well together. Much rather have an opportunity for devourers to go after the contents of a transport then have to spend turns glancing them to death.
DarkStarSabre wrote: It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...
And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?
This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.
In what way do you feel a trygon would benefit you more than a Dakkafex or a Tyrrannofex? Is it an attempt to find a middle ground between the two?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
winterman wrote: As far as hive guard vs dakka fexes. Take both. They work amazingly well together. Much rather have an opportunity for devourers to go after the contents of a transport then have to spend turns glancing them to death.
The problem with that is you can always take more Carnifexes. It isn't like you've filled up your heavy support slot, because you can take broods of 3. So if a Carnifex is better than Hive Guard, there is no reason to take Hive Guard.
DarkStarSabre wrote: It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...
And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?
This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.
In what way do you feel a trygon would benefit you more than a Dakkafex or a Tyrrannofex? Is it an attempt to find a middle ground between the two?
Faster. Higher WS so combined with Paroxysm a Trygon can become a royal pain in the arse for any elite or small infantry unit. Less firepower but more attacks and higher initiative as well - I always feel that Dakkafexes are too squishy on their lonesome and I find Tyrannofexes...well..interesting. Very short ranged, forced to advance and horrendously vulnerable to being tarpitted in assault (as a Tyranid player I am fully aware of this trick - it's how I deal with annoying things - just leave a gaunt blob with them, that's at least 3-4 combat phases where whatever it is is stuck in a gaunt blob unless they commit further units to it...). I really don't feel a Tyrannofex offers much that the list doesn't already have. Hey look, a big thing with incredibly short ranged firepower.
Plus the fact that there's an option to skip the upgrades and go for a Trygon Prime though 6 extra shots really does not seem worth the points hike (literally, the only difference is Synapse - which I am not shy of and higher base Ld - I suppose if someone really wanted to Mind War it?) Those extra six shots do not compare to toxin sacs and regen - plus the fact that the Assassin Tyrant is gone...I do feel I need something I can reliably throw at troublesome monstrous creatures like Wraithknights and Riptides - a multiple attacking, high initiative and WS Trygon with poisoned attacks seems far more reliable there than throwing a Tyrant with a LW/Bonesword or Reaper and hoping for a 6 to ID the thing....
Also, the fact I conveniently already have a Trygon painted probably helps there as well. I don't fancy my chances of getting a T-fex done in my spare time and really don't want to continue painting the dakkafexes til I'm in the right mood for them.
winterman wrote: As far as hive guard vs dakka fexes. Take both. They work amazingly well together. Much rather have an opportunity for devourers to go after the contents of a transport then have to spend turns glancing them to death.
The problem with that is you can always take more Carnifexes. It isn't like you've filled up your heavy support slot, because you can take broods of 3. So if a Carnifex is better than Hive Guard, there is no reason to take Hive Guard.
Units of fexes are not all the great, especially running low synapse (lose more shots and take wounds on a failed IB -- single fexes loose out much less). Much prefer single fexes too for targeting purposes (rather shoot 12 and see where else to go rather than overload 24+ shots into a single unit -- especially with MSU on the rise).
That said you are right if carnifexes are better you can always unit em up to get more, but I still disagree with the premise that carnifexes are strickly better. In a world with eldar skimmer spam and the like I'd rather have a mix of both. Maybe more of a personal preference rather then a rule though.
Carnifex units are better for Overwatch. Nothing like killing 3 wraiths in my shooting phase and then another 2 when they attempted to charge me (and by doing so, failed the charge so I killed what was left in my turn).
I prefer Dakkafex over the Trygon (either variant). I usually run them in groups of 2s (bring 2 squads) and a mawloc or a squad of biovores. Synapse really isn't that big of an issue as you should be saturating your board with it.
Hard hitting hive tyrants/ harpy's along with a Mawloc to distract usually keeps my Fex's alive long enough to decimate an important squad or kill off armor. Either way I love them.
DarkStarSabre wrote: It's me again! I think I have another idea. Triple Flyrant is an idea...but what do people think of dropping a Flyrant...
And adding a Toxic regenning Trygon as an option?
Primary Detachment
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants
3 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike
Biovore
Trygon - Toxin Sacs, Regeneration
Barbed Hierodule
Secondary Detachment
Flyrant
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.
Interesting. But MoA lets you do big bugs...so why not Tyranofex, with a bubble wrap, and a Zoey Nanny?
winterman wrote: As far as hive guard vs dakka fexes. Take both. They work amazingly well together. Much rather have an opportunity for devourers to go after the contents of a transport then have to spend turns glancing them to death.
The problem with that is you can always take more Carnifexes. It isn't like you've filled up your heavy support slot, because you can take broods of 3. So if a Carnifex is better than Hive Guard, there is no reason to take Hive Guard.
Units of fexes are not all the great, especially running low synapse (lose more shots and take wounds on a failed IB -- single fexes loose out much less). Much prefer single fexes too for targeting purposes (rather shoot 12 and see where else to go rather than overload 24+ shots into a single unit -- especially with MSU on the rise).
That said you are right if carnifexes are better you can always unit em up to get more, but I still disagree with the premise that carnifexes are strickly better. In a world with eldar skimmer spam and the like I'd rather have a mix of both. Maybe more of a personal preference rather then a rule though.
Units of 2 are generally ideal, Carnifexes are best used abusing Master of Ambush or Onslaught wherever possible , the more you can push forward at once the better. 3 in a unit is definitely going to be overkill on some ideal targets are incapable of assaulting different directions.
However, the logic posted by tag is really... Bad. Sure you can take up to 9 Fexes, no more than 6 sensibly but max of 9. However It isn't called the Carnifex Support slot on the FOC. What if I want to take 2 Mawlocs? Or a Tyrannofex? Carnifexes do not completely outclass HG at all, while the Fex is a more versatile better unit generally, HG brings a bit to the table the Fexes do not, and they so it from a far less packed slot.
This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.
Building to do this would be... A tremendous waste of the best weapon in our arsenal. The Trygon already deep strikes (better entry method as well) the Termagants can already outflank with Hive Commander, and the Zoanthrope gains very little from outflanking and does very little either way (even less than usual)
On top of that, you should only be outflanking with MoA only if you go second, so our biggest threats can make it to range without getting merked, otherwise you should be Infiltrating to put our massive 18" threats into range turn 1.
This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.
Building to do this would be... A tremendous waste of the best weapon in our arsenal. The Trygon already deep strikes (better entry method as well) the Termagants can already outflank with Hive Commander, and the Zoanthrope gains very little from outflanking and does very little either way (even less than usual)
On top of that, you should only be outflanking with MoA only if you go second, so our biggest threats can make it to range without getting merked, otherwise you should be Infiltrating to put our massive 18" threats into range turn 1.
Generally I take the Infiltrate option, simply because it lets 4 units get further across the field to start with. Useful for setting up Synapse waypoints, useful for getting the shorter ranged aspects closer or for getting the flyers closer so their turn 1 flight can get them behind some of the enemy to start pinging rear armour or tastier small units.
Like I said, was an option - Deep Strike may be a better option (and probably the one used as the Rippers are there as well...) but it depends on what role it will play in the game. If my opponent has brought the big things along I may be better running him up on foot to ensure he gets to them to do his job rather than DSing in and being shot into tiny pieces before he gets to jump on his prey.
If they turtle MoA has uses for delivering up to 4 units via outflank - to be perfectly frank I could simply send 2 units along - the Zoey acting as a babysitter (and if one of the Zoeys gets Psychic Scream it will help get him closer to use it) and the gaunts.
Ambush is just one way to get there fast; however, if your opponent or LGS will allow you to utilize the formations in Valedor ( not saying use all of them in one game, but 1 I have found is usually okay with opponents) there are some rather interesting options for speed in there.
At my FLGS (Games Workshop, Raliegh) the GW store manager has already stated that he feels that all formations are available in normal games. This has brought a huge dynamic to our games and made it a lot more fun than bringing standard armies. Just an idea.
DarkStarSabre wrote: Those extra six shots do not compare to toxin sacs and regen - plus the fact that the Assassin Tyrant is gone...I do feel I need something I can reliably throw at troublesome monstrous creatures like Wraithknights and Riptides - a multiple attacking, high initiative and WS Trygon with poisoned attacks seems far more reliable there than throwing a Tyrant with a LW/Bonesword or Reaper and hoping for a 6 to ID the thing.....
Wouldn't this be the perfect time to throw in a brood of 8 Genestealers or so? When points allow, I don't see why they get left out as often as they do. They aren't anything against vehicles, but big beasts like Wraithknights and other Wound heavy things can be crunched down with poisoned rending claws. Add talons and it's an expensive unit, but still less than a Trygon if you skip the Broodlord. With Infiltrate already so could be effective as a turn 1 strike against that type of unit if all the variables swing your way. Turn 1 Tyranids, cover within 12" and that sort of thing. Or am I off base with this idea? I haven't had the chance to try it out.
rigeld2 wrote:Can't assault T1 after Infiltrating so it'd be a T2 threat at the earliest.
He's right, Turn 1 assaults are a thing of the past when infiltrating.
SharkoutofWata wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote: Those extra six shots do not compare to toxin sacs and regen - plus the fact that the Assassin Tyrant is gone...I do feel I need something I can reliably throw at troublesome monstrous creatures like Wraithknights and Riptides - a multiple attacking, high initiative and WS Trygon with poisoned attacks seems far more reliable there than throwing a Tyrant with a LW/Bonesword or Reaper and hoping for a 6 to ID the thing.....
Wouldn't this be the perfect time to throw in a brood of 8 Genestealers or so? When points allow, I don't see why they get left out as often as they do. They aren't anything against vehicles, but big beasts like Wraithknights and other Wound heavy things can be crunched down with poisoned rending claws. Add talons and it's an expensive unit, but still less than a Trygon if you skip the Broodlord. With Infiltrate already so could be effective as a turn 1 strike against that type of unit if all the variables swing your way. Turn 1 Tyranids, cover within 12" and that sort of thing. Or am I off base with this idea? I haven't had the chance to try it out.
I believe I am one of the few people who still run a brood as you described simply for that purpose. Genestealers bring a lot to the Tyranid army, but are often considered sub par. This is mainly due to their point's cost which is significantly higher than it should be. IMHO, a small unit of genestealers with a Broodlord will add a threat to your army that has to be considered even if they can't assault turn 1. They can still claim objectives, receive a bolstered cover save (when going to ground), they are great at tying up an opponent for a turn, and they aren't super expensive. I would support running them as inexpensive as you can get though. Instead of 8 genestealers, I'd suggest you run 6 genestealers + broodlord (with Scything talons and toxin sacs). Total points is 158 I believe? I think that the neatest thing you can do with them though is to split your opponent up. Genestealers can force your opponent to remove his concentrated fire from your Carnifexen broods and other tough guys because even if your genestealers lose combat/die in the process they give your other units time.
Remember, there's nothing that says "Haha" like declaring your infiltrating them against your opponent, who then takes into account that they'll be infiltrating by protecting his shooting units/putting everything in cover and then infiltrating them into your own backfield on an objective.
I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.
This is one option - the Trygon gives me an interesting option if I get the 'Infiltrate' Warlord Trait as I should imagine the Trygon, 1 Zoey and a Termagant Brood rolling in from a flank could be useful for an objective grab.
Building to do this would be... A tremendous waste of the best weapon in our arsenal. The Trygon already deep strikes (better entry method as well) the Termagants can already outflank with Hive Commander, and the Zoanthrope gains very little from outflanking and does very little either way (even less than usual)
On top of that, you should only be outflanking with MoA only if you go second, so our biggest threats can make it to range without getting merked, otherwise you should be Infiltrating to put our massive 18" threats into range turn 1.
Generally I take the Infiltrate option, simply because it lets 4 units get further across the field to start with. Useful for setting up Synapse waypoints, useful for getting the shorter ranged aspects closer or for getting the flyers closer so their turn 1 flight can get them behind some of the enemy to start pinging rear armour or tastier small units.
Like I said, was an option - Deep Strike may be a better option (and probably the one used as the Rippers are there as well...) but it depends on what role it will play in the game. If my opponent has brought the big things along I may be better running him up on foot to ensure he gets to them to do his job rather than DSing in and being shot into tiny pieces before he gets to jump on his prey.
If they turtle MoA has uses for delivering up to 4 units via outflank - to be perfectly frank I could simply send 2 units along - the Zoey acting as a babysitter (and if one of the Zoeys gets Psychic Scream it will help get him closer to use it) and the gaunts.
Ok so let's just ignore all the logic I just shared, let's just do this the least effecient way possible, just because!
The point is how strong and limited MoA is for us. Take a 50 pt unit to babysit? Slot wasted. They kill that babysitter because you took units that relied heavily on it? Master of Ambush wasted. Compare it to what others do with it - pushing 4 Carnifexes and a Tyranno or Exocrine in to shooting range of everything turn 1. You are just using it to outflank a deep striker for less control, outflanking something that can already outflank, and outflanking a useless ass Synapse peg to support the two other terrible choices you've made so far. I'm not saying doing this is in game is going to make your play any weaker, I'm just saying it is what I said it is - a tremendous waste of one of possibly our biggest and best weapon. And then, actually Building your list with the intention of doing this is really bad strategic preparation.
Also, infiltrating turn 1 is much better against turtle lists than outflanking. In fact it's pretty much the best situation possible, it completely counters anyone trying to play off a range advantage, and steals the alpha off them and gives it to you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like I said, was an option - Deep Strike may be a better option (and probably the one used as the Rippers are there as well...) but it depends on what role it will play in the game. If my opponent has brought the big things along I may be better running him up on foot to ensure he gets to them to do his job rather than DSing in and being shot into tiny pieces before he gets to jump on his prey.
That's all very nice and maybe some games you do need to walk the MC for whatever reason. This doesn't make wasting an outflanking slot on an MC that has deepstrike for the games you don't have to walk him across the board , any less of a bad decision.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarkStarSabre wrote: I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.
Trygon = aggressive? What? He does nothing till turn 3 - at best. He wasn't saying use the Fexes to GtG - he was responding to YOU saying you are going to use the same points on Stealers, and GtG on a backfield objective with them at times.
I've just been talking general strategy. But when it actually comes down to units themselves - Stealers are glass Cannons. Taking even less than 20 is a bad idea. They also rely on supporting units to even make it to combat and make use of the "cannon" part of their glass cannon nature. Slotting a couple in to fill points will just give your opponent 5-10 light infantry models to pop once they get slightly close. Going to ground on backfield objectives is what Rippers do, for a fraction of the price.
Trygons are currently competing only with Swarmlord for the worst unit in the codex. They cost just less than double what they should. Taking them in general isn't great, abusing tunnels for Endless Swarm is ok, planning to use MoA when possible to outflank them is just further throwing possible advantages in the trash instead of seizing them and playing to our strengths.
DarkStarSabre wrote: I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.
Trygon = aggressive? What? He does nothing till turn 3 - at best. He wasn't saying use the Fexes to GtG - he was responding to YOU saying you are going to use the same points on Stealers, and GtG on a backfield objective with them at times.
Find where I said I was going to ever take Stealers. Please. Go on. I'll wait.
Hint - nowhere.
Stealers are probably the one unit I won't take, simply because anything with bolters/shuriken catapults/frag missiles/etc will just delete them off the table with minimal effort. Unless they are outflanking they generally aren't worth the points put in and even then outflanking Stealers seems horrendously redundant as the points spent on them is wasted for what we need. Tyranids like cheap, small units. Why? Because we fething adore using multiple force org charts to unlock even more of our better units.
I'd never get Stealers just to infiltrate and go to ground on a back line objective. If anything you can acheive the same with Tyranid Warriors with a Barbed Strangler for LESS points with more reliability and better survivability. Not to mention the added bonus of Synapse....or the 36 inch range pinning weapon.
So yesterday I played a bit of a gimmick list using the big box of Warriors I picked up from ebay a while back. I don't remember the exact list but it was along these lines:
1 Prime with Miasma Cannon and 2 Warrior broods
Synaptic Swarm formation (Barbed Stranglers for all Warrior broods)
6 Shrikes with ScyTals, Rending Claws and AG
2 Hive Guard units
Venomthropes
2 Dakkafexes with HVC + Devs
I was little perturbed to find my opponent had brought a armour-heavy IG list: 2 Punishers (with Pask), 2 Vanquishers and 2 Vanilla Russes along with a Manticore, plus some Guardsmen + Chimera. My first thought was that my largely multi-wound T4 list would be toast, especially against so much AV14. But I played anyway to see what I could salvage. The scenario gave us 3 objectives, and the IG player got first turn.
The first couple of turns went just as expected - anything the Russes had line of sight to just evaporated. I'd lost both Fexes and nearly half of the Warriors by the end of turn 2. However after this point, things changed rather dramatically. I managed to reach the ruins in the centre of the board and from there I was able to hold 2 objectives while keeping most of my army out of sight of the tanks. The Hive Guard took up carefully secreted positions putting them in range of 2 Russ squadrons. With a little luck they brought down Pask in one turn, as he found it impossible to keep his front armour facing both broods.
My Warriors unleashed long range fire onto his Guardsmen, wiping out everything but a few command squad guys. One sergeant heroically tried to take the backfield objective solo, trying to go unseen behind the shell of Pask's Russ, but the Hive Guard easily dealt with him. By the end of turn 5 the IG player still had 3 Russes alive, but only 3 guardsmen were left to contest objectives from the Warrior broods now emerging from cover. My opponent conceded at this point rather than play turn 6 - I had more than enough Troops to hold 2 objectives in addition to Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord. A pretty surprising result for this gimmicky list, especially for me.
The surprising star of the show was something unexpected - the Shrike unit. Despite losing half their number to some disastrously unlucky saves (failing 9 out of 10, even with 3+ cover) they managed to reach the Vanquisher squadron, destroying them in 3 rounds of combat. I'm definitely gonna try using these guys more often, they should be a good counter to some of the long range armour I often have trouble with, such as Predators and Whirlwinds.
DarkStarSabre wrote: I'll be honest and state that sounds like...a terrible use of those points. The points from the Assassin Flyrant are freed up for something equally as aggressive really. The Trygon does it well and to be fair, I like Trygons...but spending them on a brood to just go to ground on a backline objective? Ew.
Trygon = aggressive? What? He does nothing till turn 3 - at best. He wasn't saying use the Fexes to GtG - he was responding to YOU saying you are going to use the same points on Stealers, and GtG on a backfield objective with them at times.
Find where I said I was going to ever take Stealers. Please. Go on. I'll wait.
Hint - nowhere.
Stealers are probably the one unit I won't take, simply because anything with bolters/shuriken catapults/frag missiles/etc will just delete them off the table with minimal effort. Unless they are outflanking they generally aren't worth the points put in and even then outflanking Stealers seems horrendously redundant as the points spent on them is wasted for what we need. Tyranids like cheap, small units. Why? Because we fething adore using multiple force org charts to unlock even more of our better units.
I'd never get Stealers just to infiltrate and go to ground on a back line objective. If anything you can acheive the same with Tyranid Warriors with a Barbed Strangler for LESS points with more reliability and better survivability. Not to mention the added bonus of Synapse....or the 36 inch range pinning weapon.
Fair enough. It was another poster who said that, I'm on the phone and made a mistake for "who said what". You can harp on about this largely irrelevant slip up and be a jerk to me about it, but it doesn't change the fact that you made the initial interpretation mistake, which was that he wasn't saying GtG with them, his post was in response to the poster that did. Also that Carnifexes are just as / far more aggressive than Trygons.
You are right on Stealers tho, they aren't ideal unless you are specialising your list for them. However, don't think bigger means better either - Trygon might be assured to do some damage or take some fire, however he does both worse than a Mawloc, who is 50 pts cheaper. Trygon might be guaranteed to haul some weight - however at just under 200 pts before upgrades, it's not much weight. 4 S6 hits every round of combat. Assuming you aren't taking on anything that matches his WS of course. If he is threatening anything with those armor ignoring hits (best returns vs Centurions) you have to hope he makes it into combat after them having at least 1 full turn of shooting on him.
Back when Trygons had re-rolls to hit and had the best smash in the game, they were excellent. They could throw down with infantry better, and melt any tank in range of a charge. They were very versatile heavy hitting, high cost MCs. However, they were either taken in triplets or left at home - and for very good reasoning. Those Centurions you want him to kill? He doesn't want them to die. You have to be in charge range to even threaten them, and guess what? Your opponent WILL have the firepower to kill at least 1 before it makes it into combat - you can argue that they won't, but it's a big risk to take for 200 pts. You can argue that they are a big distraction - but they aren't. They are the least aggressive MC in the HS slot, but yet they still pay more per T6 wound than a Tyrannofex, who also gets a 2+ save to boot. Distractions are only good if attracting fire to them is cost effective to you - eg having them shoot down a Mawloc, who pays 23 pts a wound compared to Tyranno's 29, and Trygons 32 - he pays more per wound than even a non upgraded Carnifex, who generally make it to combat the same turn. The returns just aren't that great. 4 S6 hits in combat a turn. Which IS on par with the damage output of our MCs except it's through the much less reliable and slower means of assault as opposed to shooting - and a pair of Carnifexes charging will likely get similar or better returns on infantry anyway, and unlike Trygons they threaten the crap out of vehicles. Trygons would be playable at 120 pts. At the moment, next to the SwarmLord they are the second worse model in the codex - at least a Pyrovore only wastes 40 of your points, Trygon costs 200. Third worse model if you include Trygon Primes
OK, so we need to rework our old Skyblight list, which has worked out pretty well for us. Why? 'Cos we're going to California, plan on picking up some games, and haven't got the space for all those damn' Gargoyles.
Comes in at 1500 on the nose, leaving us with 250 to spare, not quite enough for the Carnifex duo we'd like.
Suggestions to add? We're not taking our normal Mawloc, as it's too bulky.
Current thoughts are to add one venomthrope, more devourers, and maybe swap out a termagant brood for warriors. We have more zoanthropes and a couple biovores available, as well as five Shrikes, which do look cool even if they don't do much. If we were at home we'd think about a third Crone for that Ride Of The Valkyries vibe, but for this trip it's 6 FMC max.
xttz wrote: The surprising star of the show was something unexpected - the Shrike unit. Despite losing half their number to some disastrously unlucky saves (failing 9 out of 10, even with 3+ cover) they managed to reach the Vanquisher squadron, destroying them in 3 rounds of combat. I'm definitely gonna try using these guys more often, they should be a good counter to some of the long range armour I often have trouble with, such as Predators and Whirlwinds.
Looking at your list I'm actually not at all surprised that these were your biggest earners. You had Warrior spam with nothing really taking more than imthe standard cannon, except the Shrikes (this is a good call btw). You're Dakkafexes only took 1 set of Devourers (although I can tell it's because you took them as HVC Fexes first to cover your lack of anti-tank) but didn't matter regardless, as they were your only 2 MCs (and with 4 wounds each) they are almost guaranteed to get wiped off the table in the first turn or so, even faster when you are up against Guard..
All in all looks like an interesting game. I would have to recommend getting wings and turning that Synaptic Swarm into a bunch of Shrikes. Same price, and at the cost of 6" Synapse they move 6" faster, projecting not only their Synapse further in the direction you want it as the Warriors, but also their damage. Jump move on Warriors is massive. They are THE close combat unit for Tyranids. Better than almost everything except maybe Stealers and Lictors who require much more focused lists with a lot of supporting units to be worth the points. Warrior / Shrile spam is fun because you can just MSU an entire list of them, and throw in some AT and you're done even if is gimmicky.
Either way, I would recommend rethinking the anti-tank Fexes. You saw why they didn't work in that game. In the current list I'd recommend eGrubs Tyrannos - not only are they the cheapest eGrubs platform in the codex, they are bloody tanky with 6 wounds AND the 2+ save. They will match pace with your Warriors, they will all make it to combat the same turn, TFex is very versatile and will generally even pop a non-Landraider transport the turn the Warriors want to assault it's contents, at worst they will charge and finish it off after. Not to mention eGrubs is your absolute best bet for killing a Land Raider anyway. But most importantly they don't die like 2 lone Carnifexes do. They are going to put some HP on some Armor SOMEWHERE before they go down - added bonus of absolutely melting GEQ blobs, and providing a nice cover save too if you have something you want to hide (good for blocking Line of Sight to a Venom, or giving 3+ cover to the squads with the Primes). They are just great Heavy Support in generally for a slow-n-steady infantry push like this.
Hope you don't mind my advice - I like the concept as a less aggressive, scoring list, I've played it myself before and first game went with the HVC Fexes myself (mostly because I owned the model off a bulk sale and figured they would be the best cheap, dedicated AT I could put in, while also getting the models off my shelf). You didn't explicitly ask for advice on the list, but hey, there's no reason that gimmicky can't be a solid build at the same time
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Comes in at 1500 on the nose, leaving us with 250 to spare, not quite enough for the Carnifex duo we'd like.
Suggestions to add? We're not taking our normal Mawloc, as it's too bulky.
Honestly I'd say drop a Flyrant for 2 Crones. If you can't do this, just make sure to take the Venom - you can bunch your FMCs up turn 1 they easily have the mobility to fan out and cover plenty ground, every wound you avoid before you get airborne will be critical. Remember, Flyrants have the durability if a Carnifex, for double the price - until they start forcing snapshots, they need to abuse that 2+ jink. 45 pts is a great investment considering you have 16 wounds tied up in 1000 pts. Every, single, Flyrant, wound is critical.
Take the Biovores, their alpha might be able to knock out some heavy weapon infantry before your opponent even shoots, further protecting your investments, or even further on jn the game. At the worst they can manhandle light infantry from long range, over the course of the game giving you less ground checks. They are even cost effective vs Marines even tho they get armour saves. Don't leave these guys at home.
Drop the Zoey, average model in lists that it's hood in, bad model in generalised lists, and especially bad when you have 4 Flyrants and 2 Crones (I can explain why they are worse in this list if you need me to). Don't take 5 Shrikes, take 3 with a Barbed Strangler or preferably more Biovores. If you still have points open, go ahead and swap a term squad for Warriors with Strangler.
So, interesting to see big mobs of Stealers (20-odd, presumably including a Broodlord) get mentioned. I realise this may well only be theoretical, and may also not be very competitive... but how would you go about building a list around a big mob of Stealers?
Spoletta wrote: 136 pages, this post is starting to show some history...
For example look at the first 80 pages of:
warriors= plague, stay away
and now
If you still have points open, go ahead and swap a term squad for Warriors with Strangler.
Not saying that it's wrong, just interesting if you consider that S8 only increased with 7Th.
Warriors still aren't the optimal choice, and in this case I literally suggested them as the last thing he should take out of the list of about 3 or 4 different units he had the option of choosing from. That quote is pretty far out of context. Also, I don't think I personally was ever fully against Warriors ever since the release of 6th, I've been saying that they are the best Synapse unit in the dex next to Flyrants, and are also one of the first 3 units I include in almost every list ever since Living Artillery was released, so I'm probably not the best representation of the mass anyway.
Warriors are still overcosted units, and you should take as little as possible. But if you need more Synapse than what is currently being provided in your list by Flyrants, and can't make use of Zoanthropes as Onaught rolls efficiently, the Warriors are THE best option that actually add something somewhat worthwhile for the points.
EDIT: and if you want a twin linked pinning Exocrine and twin linked Biovores, the 100 pts of Warriors becomes a very solid investment - especially since they get their own freshly twin-linked and pinning Venom Cannon.
I know, i'm not saying that the warriors are our best unit in codex, just that some pages ago taking a warrior squad was considered hive heresy and now we admit they have a role they can fulfill ( i always took them but i play swarmy with no MC, they are a mainstay for me).
Even living artillery wasn't considered so much (playable but not great) and now it's turning into the new skyblight.
Honestly I'd say drop a Flyrant for 2 Crones. If you can't do this, just make sure to take the Venom - you can bunch your FMCs up turn 1 they easily have the mobility to fan out and cover plenty ground, every wound you avoid before you get airborne will be critical.
Take the Biovores, their alpha might be able to knock out some heavy weapon infantry before your opponent even shoots, further protecting your investments, or even further on jn the game..
Drop the Zoey, average model in lists that it's hood in, bad model in generalised lists, and especially bad when you have 4 Flyrants and 2 Crones (I can explain why they are worse in this list if you need me to). Don't take 5 Shrikes, take 3 with a Barbed Strangler or preferably more Biovores. If you still have points open, go ahead and swap a term squad for Warriors with Strangler.
Know what you are playing against at all?
Thanks... our first practice game Sat is against Tau, so we'll go back to Biovores. Time to actually assemble them and model new heads, as we'd proxied in the past. Likewise we'll bring out the Venomthrope, which could have saved our last defeat (two out of three flyrants killed in first turn shooting).
We haven't used zoeys since the new codex... but was considering for synapse babysitting. WHy so bad, and why so bad in this list? TIA.
Spoletta wrote: I know, i'm not saying that the warriors are our best unit in codex, just that some pages ago taking a warrior squad was considered hive heresy and now we admit they have a role they can fulfill ( i always took them but i play swarmy with no MC, they are a mainstay for me).
Even living artillery wasn't considered so much (playable but not great) and now it's turning into the new skyblight.
Well, Skyblight did get objectively worse, however this is mostly due to the sheep mentality. Living Artillery has been the staple of almost every list I've made since it's release. Amazing formation.
Living Artillery is fantastic and its flexible. Skyblight is great but it dictates what your army is going to be. Living Artillery, IMO, is something I bring along just about always because it's a fantastic utility formation. There aren't many times I don't want psuedo-TL biovores, Exocrine, and a Tyranid warrior cannon.
I also typically have a brood of impaler cannon hive guard running around with them. It makes a flexible and aggressive firebase. I also tend to give the warriors rending claws so they can assault or counter assault anything that threatens the gun beasts.
BTW thanks for the support and advice on the solo zoas vs brood zoas a couple of pages back. I haven't had a chance to give try them solo but I've been tinkering with a list.
We haven't used zoeys since the new codex... but was considering for synapse babysitting. WHy so bad, and why so bad in this list? TIA.
No problem - and anyone else who is still blindly filling out their Elite slots with Zopes every list, can probably take something out of what I'm about to say and at the very least would do well to think hard about it.
Zoanthropes are generally pretty bad because they don't do a lot. 50 pts for one isn't going to cripple your list obviously - but it's also going to do very little for you.They are best in lists that can make excellent use of the extra chance to roll Onslaught, I.e. getting Carnifexes and Tyrannos into range a turn early, possibly turn 1 (the best you can hope for in this list is getting a Flyrants into position to dump Dakka onto rear armour turn 1 on a vehicsitting on the edge of their deployment zone, with a high roll for run ofc. You can see how this is at best highly unlikely to be effective, and largely a useless roll). The reason I say this is so important for Zoeys, is because otherwise, they are doing NOTHING other than Synapse. The chances of doing anything with 1 Warp Lance a turn are phenomenally low - and that's assuming they are in range. They have a roll on a table with 5 other possible results. The Horror and Psychic Scream are almost guaranteed to do nothing - if Onslaught is another dead roll you, that's 3/5 dead rolls, with Paroxysm being situationally ok but not an excellent roll either, leaving a 1/5 chance of getting Catalyst, generally the best all round role.
However, even that is only useful situationally here, as it's generally best for adding a little survivability to a prime target, say an Exocrine or a Flyrant. However, your list runs four Flyrants! If you do successfully cast it on one of them, he can just focus one of 3 others! It might come in handy for saving a wound on a low health Flyrant, but even this makes it less useful than usual, as the lower the wounds the less the chance of FnP'ing one. E.g a Flyrant who takes 4 wounds with Catalyst on him will likely shrug one off, a Flyrant with 1-2 wounds left is quite likely to just die. There is something behind getting lots of Catalyst rolls and stacking it wit the 1 or 2 you rolled with your Flyrants, but with a 1/5 chance of rolling it, needing the Flyrants to roll it once or twice themselves, then needing to successfully cast and get past Deny dice multiple times, then having a further 1/3 chance of it doing anything, assuming you managed to put it on enough targets that they have to shoot one, it's hard to expect to see any sort of return on your 50 pts.
With a 2/5 roll for one of two HIGHLY situational Powers, Zopes are adding very little to your list bar Synapse. Then there's the fact that you can expect slightly diminishing returns per each Psyker added to your army (the nature of the maths behind the new Psychic phase) and you are putting him in after taking 4 Flyrants.
"But SHUPPET, I still need cheap Synapse, and while I see that Zoanthropes aren't ideal, the main reason I included him is for a cheap Synapse peg to support my actual army. Isn't everything else more expensive or worse?"
Good question, and it's the most commonly used logic behind taking Zopes. Instead, what you need to do with his 50 pts, is turn one of your termagant squads into a squad of warriors. 40+50=90, perfect amount for 3 Warriors. 10 more points and they can take a cannon.
"But I thought Warriors were overpriced terminators that get InstantDeathed by S8 or higher?"
Wrong. Well, actually correct. But for the sake of this comparison - 3 Warriors take as many S8 wounds to kill as a Zoanthrope - and that's assuming the Warriors don't get their save. In fact, because the entire Zope gets wiped on the first failed save, they do it more reliably. Then when you compare their survivability to say Bolter fire, they are much better, they have Terminator resilience vs light arms. And, they actually add something to your army. When Warriors get to CC, they can eat gak alive. Their 10 pts Cannon murders GEQ squads, and lays down pinning support (which has the added bonus of sometimes giving you a nasty combo with your highly mobile SitW).
"Ok, but it cost me my Termagant squad. Factoring that in they are nearly double the cost of my Zope"
Well, for starters i don't think any of us were expecting a whole lot from that min sized Term/Ripper squad that every sensible player uses to fill out our mandatory, crappy troop slots. However, if you are taking it into account, it's as simple of this - using 1000 pt games for a quick example, would you rather bring those 2 Zoeys and have effectively a -100 pt modifier on your list, or would you rather have that same 900 pt list, with 2 squads of Warriors instead of two squads of Termagants. That's Exactly the difference between the two. In no situation is having to take 50 pts of a model that adds nothing to your list outweigh taking 100 pts of models that add a lot of aggression to your list, and have to eat an armor ignoring S8 blast with 3 succesful hits and then wounds to even be considered a bad investment, as only the Achilles heel of instadeath can even make them slightly overpriced. Instead of letting Synapse cripple your lists, build to mitigate the damage it does. Bringing 100 pts less to the table has you already playing against the odds, you've let Synapse hurt you before the game has even begun.
Just quickly, to put a warriors cost effectiveness ratio into perspective against S8 shooting, the same amount of points in Warriors takes more S8 shots to kill than a Dakkafex, a Tervigon, and an Exocrine. Double the amount of a Flyrant (although without forcing snapshots ofc). They become Terminators to light Arms shooting, Terminators in CC if you avoid fists, who they eat as well as MCs do. They aren't ideal in general though, because S8 blasts do exist - however, they are infinitely better than useless Zoanthropes.
"But SHUPPET, you even posted a list yourself with Zoanthropes in it. When IS it sensible to take them?"
This is the critical thing right here. We can assume almost every game that Psychic Scream and the Horror are bad rolls, while Catalyst will be a good one. Paroxysm sitting somewhere in the middle of the fence (not amazing but useful enough to be justifiable if the other 2 rolls are good). So practically everything hinges on Onslaught. Is extra rolls for Onslaught after your Flyrants worth 50 points in your list? Well when I'm running 2x2man strong Carnifex broods, to me the answer to that question is "yes". It's not the only power that they can roll, however it is the power that decides whether it's a 3/5 chance of a dead roll with only a 1/5 chance got a result worthwhile, OR a 2/5 chance of a bad result with same chance to get something excellent, and a positive chance to get something at least useable. Even then, they only made the cut because I need Synapse, and in this list they outperform Warriors. Otherwise, I use Warriors. If I had 4 Flyrants, I'd use neither.
This is why I described them earlier as average in the lists they are best in, bad in general, and terrible in yours.
I went up against a scary 2850 Ndis list. 3 Tyrants and 2 Tervigons were the beef of it. I only lost because there were too many gaunts on the board for me to kill, and I couldnt get them. I would really take 2 Tervigons for a TAC army so you have a great horde.
Thanks for that comprehensive, well-argued post, Shuppet. Having three warriors as a cornerstone of the troops feels much better already. One barbed strangler, and rending claws I guess.
Can't run Shrikes as we only have five warrior/shrike models; think we'll run two biovores (have a third but I'm planning to swap him out eventually), and use the balance to add numbers and devourers to the termagants.
Ive been using Warriors a lot since the Codex came out. It tends towards cost, if my list is tight I will drop gants and a zoey to pop in a Warrior brood. They're just harder to get rid of synapse wise.
If there are spare points, then they usually get rending claws and 1 LW/BS warrior with scytals. Unless their initiative is higher, many players dont like treading near a unit like that, especially MC's.
Iechine wrote: Ive been using Warriors a lot since the Codex came out. It tends towards cost, if my list is tight I will drop gants and a zoey to pop in a Warrior brood. They're just harder to get rid of synapse wise.
If there are spare points, then they usually get rending claws and 1 LW/BS warrior with scytals. Unless their initiative is higher, many players dont like treading near a unit like that, especially MC's.
My general issue with warriors is that their performance is very much dependant on the local meta.
My local meta? Imperial Knights, 3 SM players who field Vindicators, 2 CSM players who do the same, a Tau player who loves his hammerheads, an Adepta Soritas player of triple Exorcist and a daemon player who tends to run triple soulgrinder.
That is an awful lot of S8 firepower that gets sent my way. Now thing is, gaunts can spread out and Zoeys tend to pull the old Storm Shield trick of being annoyingly jinky with their invuln saves to survive a storm. But warriors...the few times I have played with them they've sort of just...exploded. Messily. Knights in particular are rough on them as there's very little they can do in return plus Paladins with mutliple S8 ordnance templates do a quick number on Warrior broods.
Actually, knights are just rough on 'nids in general. Incredibly difficult to crack open with our trust dakkafexes and flyrants and assaulting them with a Carnifex is tantamount to suicide - an I4 melee D-weapon hitting on 3s is just not cricket. Really, Knights are the one pain that I do not fancy...
And the local meta has several of the SM players murmuring more about them. Ew. Ironically my poor neglected Death Guard did just fine against Knights through objective snatching with Plague Marines... (Which is funny as my Death Guard were largely shelved due to me strictly not caring for the ZOMG SPAMDRAKES or the fact my planned Heldrake build put me back £50 a drake...)
In part my army is limited by the fact that I want to field things actually painted- I essentially have one good weekend of painting left along with whatever can be done during the next few weeks.
And what is currently at the point where a weekend of painting can get them done comfortably and within reasonable standards (i.e. not driving me to tears with boredom of painting flesh tones.)?
Now, I don't mention gaunts because a - I have 15 of the buggers at stages where I could whip them out in half a day and b - same with hormagaunts. Gaunts are also mindnumbingly dull to paint.
I don't even mention what I actually have....because there's rather a lot. I'll list things here for completion - not what they have or quanties, but just so people know what I could punish myself with.
More Gaunts than I ever wanted - only 20 Devilgaunts though
Hormagaunts
Rippers
Genestealers (lots actually. For my shame. It's what happens when you buy 5 of the 5th edition Tyranid Assault brood boxes...)
Tyranid Warriors - some variety - Bunch of Deathspitters, bunch of devourers
2 Zoanthropes
5 Lictors
7 Raveners - Rending Claws
5 Scytal Raveners
Red Terror
3 Shrikes - Twin Boneswords
18 Gargoyles (really don't fancy these at the moment. I need to mass magnetise their bases)
2 Crones
Not a bad pool of things. Not including things unassembled. Note, I loathe Genestealer assembly. I hate them. Ruleswise they got gutted and assembly wise...ugh, fiddly little seperate legs!
But yeah, want to actually field something fully painted for a change...just to feel all fuzzy and proud. I could probably churn out a bunch this weekend but I'm trying to keep my paintload light - basing a Hierodule, the last highlights of a Flyrant and some Rippers and Biovores is not too rough for me to do.
I did, as a completely bizarre chain of though while helping a friend move realise I could do a sillier 1800 point army
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Venomthrope
Barbed Hierodule
Flyrant - Twin Devourers
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Scythed Hierodule
But then I realised that was definately not cricket.
It's a shame that you have experienced such unfortunate luck with Warriors, or maybe I should be congratulating you on such positive luck with the Zoeys. However, in my wall of text post that I honestly can't blame you if you chose not to fully read it, I showed that maths dictates that on average a Zoey will take 3 S8 shots before dying - exactly the same as Warriors. You can rely on this being the most common outcome. Except unlike the Warriors, 1/3 of the time they will die after a single S8 shot - another 1/3 of the time they will take only 2. Warriors are actually more resilient to S8 shooting than a solo Zoey. Except of course if your meta spams S8-10 blasts, for whatever the unlikely reason.
In this situation, Zoeys become no more useful, and all the stuff about bringing a 900 pt list to a 1000 pt game still holds true. However, Warriors seem a little less desirable. I personally would not resort to nerfing the point size of my army, and relying on something a bit more hefty like a Tervigon for your Synapse in this situation. Considering he is about as durable as the Warriors and the Zope to standard S8 shooting, but instead eats 6 blasts instead of 2, and once again provides something to your army, eGrubs Termagant Swarms, assault support, and a whole lot of objective secured. Once again, it mitigates the damage Synapse does to your army instead of slightly crippling it, and actually provides a nice natural counter to all those expensive Vindicator blasts and whatever else, since the only real argument against taking Warriors here is meta gaming.
To everyone else who responded, thanks for the appreciation for the towering wall of words and taking the time out to read it, I've been meaning to write something definitive on Zoanthropes for a while now as it's been a hot topic for a while, constantly popping up and still the source of much confusion. It is all just my perspective of course, however I do try to back up all my definitive perspectives with fairly irrefutable logic hope the guide helps put a few Nid players back on even footing with their opponents.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ian Sturrock wrote: So, interesting to see big mobs of Stealers (20-odd, presumably including a Broodlord) get mentioned. I realise this may well only be theoretical, and may also not be very competitive... but how would you go about building a list around a big mob of Stealers?
Step 1: Take a lot of Stealers. Too little is easy to mitigate the hell out of the entire investment by chewing through them in the early game. They need to be the core of your list to work. Genestealers require a heavy investment of support to work at all, and work best in higher numbers, so there is no reason not to spend every spare point on them once you cover your bases. They are a very "in for a penny, in for a pound" style unit. Your blob needn't be one large unit, MSU will probably get larger returns for greater spread, better abuse of infiltrate. Forcing more Markerlights helps as well.
Step 2: Take pinning, your Stealers are paying a bundle for their I6 but do not have assault grenades, forcing GtG with pinning is the only way around this. Luckily we have possibly the best pinning jn the game, Living Artillery, Shrikes with Barbed Stranglers, even taking a 6 Broodlords for "The Horror" combined with Deathleapers Assassins formation -1 LD bubble.
Step 3: Take at least 1 Venomthrope. This is a given for Nids, but even more critical here. Not only do they rely heavily on cover saves with their paperthin and easily ignored armor save, they can also easily abuse the Shrouded, by electing to Go to Ground when shot at, and keeping a squad of Synapse (often the Warriors, even the ones from Living Artillery) just out of range, they can claim a 4+ cover save out in the open, 2+ cover save standing behind something, then have the Synapse unit walk into range in your turn, provide Fearless making you ignore the effects of GtG, allowing you to move up, back out of Synapse to either charge or rinse and repeat next turn. Taking a screen of some nature is strongly worth considering for this purpose as well. Possibly both if you melt a small squad and your Synapse jocky are Shrikes. Venomthropes also defend your investment with defensive grenades and making them counts-as in terrain, to help in multiple ways against the counter-charge. They are so good here that you should strongly consider 2 or even 3.
Step 4: Take some anti-tank. You can put glances on most transports in assault with Stealers - if you can catch them in good time. You don't want to auto-lose to a couple of Landraiders either, or even have no means of dealing with just 1. Your Stealers are glass cannons, and your army won't live through the game if you can't throw them into combat ASAP, nor if you win all your possible combats and have to sit around trying to GtG on objectives vs a vehicle heavy list. Flyers being a severe weakness. Compare the survivability of 30 stealers to 40 Termagants. Then think about how quickly you've seen 30 man squads of Terms chewed through before. Crones fill the Anti-tank and anti-Air role well, and they are cheap. Hive Guard are obviously a strong pick for their ability to manhandle transports and ignore jink (on Flyers as well). Tyrannofexes are nice for cheap eGrubs, and super durable mobile cover for Stealers as well as being able to block Line of Sight to a Venom, however you'll probably need something to deal with flyers. Some combination to your taste (and meta) of the above 3 is probably your best bet. You probably want to stick to one Flyrant for your mandatory HQ, as the second one is even more overpriced than usual if you aren't dependant on it's Synapse (which you aren't). Playing your first one super careful including HIGHSPEEDSPACEMANUEVRES such as flying him off the board until hostile Flyers arrive, is probably better than taking a second one over say a Crone and squad of HG.
Step 5: Deploy and use infiltrate wisely. I can't tell you much more than this, as it's per game by game basis and you'll have to make a call. E.g you want to use it to get as close as possible, as safely as possible. You probably don't want to deploy outside of Venomthrope range verse say a wall of Marines on the DZ with Heavy Bolters and Vindicators, but it's probably going to be worth it to close the massive gap as much as possible against Tau deployed entirely backfield, who would likely ignore your cover regardless. Anything else is in between, decide what to do each game.
Stealer shock is fun and rewarding, and most games feel as though the outcome relied heavily on your decisions as opposed to the dice. I'm going to post some photos of my heavily converted Stealer army once I get the charger for my camera. I feel as though it's about time I proved I'm not just a grizzly old strategist and shared my love for the hobby and the bugs with you guys
What Shuppet says is quite true, Zoans and warriors have different roles, take one that is good for your army...or take them both, actually the warriors themselves are good targets for Onslaught. They want to be in meele as fast as possible, but they also can't discard those pinning shots.
If you find yourself in dire need of synapse then taking both is viable.
I'm going to be honest, I see exactly two reasons to bring Warriors. 1. They are required by a Formation 2. You're out of Fast Attack slots. I liked Warriors in 6th edition, I just think that Shrikes are strictly better in 7th. I love my converted ones so I wanted to try them, and I realized that they are faster than Warriors for the same cost and still score. They make a lot better use of their assault potential with rending claws, and the 5+ to 4+ armor save is barely relevant compared to warriors, as they should always have cover. I took 3 to the ATC and I was very satisfied with how they worked compared to normal warriors.
Are lash whips/boneswords ever worth it on Shrikes? Is it best to keep them cheap like warriors and just stick to devourers and a strangler?
How do Rending Claws match up to Swords?
Sinful Hero wrote: Are lash whips/boneswords ever worth it on Shrikes? Is it best to keep them cheap like warriors and just stick to devourers and a strangler?
How do Rending Claws match up to Swords?
If you are going to run Shrikes (and that is an *if*), I would always give 1-2 LW/BS. It lets you potentially snipe out models, and provides a bit more punch to the unit..
Sinful Hero wrote: Are lash whips/boneswords ever worth it on Shrikes? Is it best to keep them cheap like warriors and just stick to devourers and a strangler?
How do Rending Claws match up to Swords?
I personally ran 3 shrikes with 2 rending claws and one Barbed Strangler. I found that I didn't miss having a LW/BS, but if you're going against a wraith knight heavy meta you may want it.
jifel wrote: I'm going to be honest, I see exactly two reasons to bring Warriors. 1. They are required by a Formation 2. You're out of Fast Attack slots. I liked Warriors in 6th edition, I just think that Shrikes are strictly better in 7th. I love my converted ones so I wanted to try them, and I realized that they are faster than Warriors for the same cost and still score. They make a lot better use of their assault potential with rending claws, and the 5+ to 4+ armor save is barely relevant compared to warriors, as they should always have cover. I took 3 to the ATC and I was very satisfied with how they worked compared to normal warriors.
Depends on how many Taus you got in your area, Shrikes just melt under SMS. Against waveserpent cannon having that 4+ is also nice.
Yep. Eldar and Tau are the reasons to take Warriors over Shrikes. SMS and the Wave Serpent's annoying S7 cover ignoring D6 shot weapon just delete Shrikes off the board with impunity. They pretty much account for anything in the Tyranid army that is cover reliant - so Lictors, Venomthropes, Shrikes, Genestealers (not hard, at this rate I reckon a water pistol accounts for Genestealers) all go poof when confronted with them. Whoever thought people needed respectable strength, mutliple shot, cover save ignoring weapons, eh?
Warriors have their own problems to be honest - the change to vehicles in 7th means that the high strength weapons are coming back in vogue (melta weapons and lascannons in particular) so our Warriors get to relive the joy of why no one took them through 5th in the first place. Really, that EW nerf on Synapse from 4th to 5th was the deathknell for warriors as a whole.
It sucks for Warriors, EW would be great for them. However the reason they are picked now and not in 5E codex, in 5E we had many good Synapse creatures. Flyrants, Zoanthropes, Tervigons, Swarmlord, Shellrants, Tyranid Prime.
In 6E, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these was given a massive nerf. Flyrants got off the easiest. The bulk of the rest are complete trash tier. This is what makes Warriors playable. Terrible codex writing.
Just so I'm keeping up here - exactly how are Warriors better than Shrikes against Eldar or Tau, other than saving you the points of a Termagant squad of course?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the whole S8 weapons counter Warriors thing is a bit Of a mmyth. S8 blasts do. For 180 pts, 6 Warriors take as many Melta hits to kill as a Tyrannofex for the same price. Melta and Lascannons do not invalidate your Warriors, you are no worse off than had you taken almost any of our other MCs. The real issue is S8+ blasts who will wipe and entire squad in a shot. People need to actually think about why models are bad and not just regurgitate trash.
The Carnifexes were put in partially as a distraction, and partially because I'd just painted up to 9 for a recent Apoc game and wanted to use the new ones In future I'm going to avoid HVCs and use something like Shrikes for heavy armour. Unfortunately I only own 6 of these, but I have 4 Warrior bodies left in my bits box, so I'll be keeping an eye on ebay for more FW wings.
After that game I agree the best way to run Warriors is MSU, with as many Barbed Stranglers as possible. I've had more than a few games where spamming these along with Biovores from a distance meant my opponent didn't have enough viable troops by the end to achieve anything objectives-wise. Synaptic Swarm was a bust too, the extra synapse range was never needed due to all the Warriors + Shrikes. In fact with this kind of list, if you've lost your synapse it's because all your troops are dead so you've basically already lost.
With that in mind, in future when I want to run Warriors, I'll probably take 2 broods as my minimum troops, then either use more to unlock a second primary detachment (likely for more Elites), or take formations based around Warriors. A combination of Bioblast Node and Living Artillery means 4 troop units, 5 MCs (one with 2+ armour) and a ton of reliable Pinning firepower. I'll probably even stick with a Miasma Prime as my Warlord, it pairs up well with a Barbed Strangler and gives a solid backfield objective holder.
Seems like it has enough punch to be strong, but not completely optimized and overly competitive; not expecting any crazy lists to show up at this place.
I think I enjoy living artillery far more than skyblight. Also, I have found that getting master of ambush from the warlords traits is devastating; getting the dakkafexs in range on turn 1 is nasty... and getting the hive guard in shooting range on turn 1 while hiding behind a wall? Really ups their potential.
You are paying 80 pts to open up room to blow more points on a Haruspex and an extra Venom/Zoanthrope. If you are doing it to deliberately handicap yourself for the spirit of fun, thats exactly what it will achieve. I think it will struggle even in non competitive games, even though the rest of your list is very solid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @LORDFIEND
Very pretty models! Even though you played the rule wrong, doesn't change that it can happen. I think the Maelstroms are silly tbh, I mean there is always going to be some luck involved even in 6E objectives, maelstrom just feels like it can dish out unbalanced battlefields. But could be much worse however
Seems like it has enough punch to be strong, but not completely optimized and overly competitive; not expecting any crazy lists to show up at this place.
I think I enjoy living artillery far more than skyblight. Also, I have found that getting master of ambush from the warlords traits is devastating; getting the dakkafexs in range on turn 1 is nasty... and getting the hive guard in shooting range on turn 1 while hiding behind a wall? Really ups their potential.
Still in love with your haruspex, I see. At least they are an option against LR's and heavy armor with their crushing claws (I'm assuming they have them, no?).
Good luck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: It sucks for Warriors, EW would be great for them. However the reason they are picked now and not in 5E codex, in 5E we had many good Synapse creatures. Flyrants, Zoanthropes, Tervigons, Swarmlord, Shellrants, Tyranid Prime.
In 6E, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these was given a massive nerf. Flyrants got off the easiest. The bulk of the rest are complete trash tier. This is what makes Warriors playable. Terrible codex writing.
Just so I'm keeping up here - exactly how are Warriors better than Shrikes against Eldar or Tau, other than saving you the points of a Termagant squad of course?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the whole S8 weapons counter Warriors thing is a bit Of a mmyth. S8 blasts do. For 180 pts, 6 Warriors take as many Melta hits to kill as a Tyrannofex for the same price. Melta and Lascannons do not invalidate your Warriors, you are no worse off than had you taken almost any of our other MCs. The real issue is S8+ blasts who will wipe and entire squad in a shot. People need to actually think about why models are bad and not just regurgitate trash.
I wouldn't say every single one of those units were nerfed. Flyrants and zoans definitely got a buff. But the rest, yeah.
Don't warriors have 4+ whereas shrikes only 5+? Makes warriors slightly more resilient against serpent-spam mechdar, but Tau will reduce either one to ash in no time.
jy2 wrote: Still in love with your haruspex, I see. At least they are an option against LR's and heavy armor with their crushing claws (I'm assuming they have them, no?).
Good luck.
They do. It's the only reason I haven't sold off the two kits I have seeing as how the Exocrine has failed me literally every time I've fielded it.
That and they look amazing.
Just went out and bought a box of Warriors after reading SHUPPET's post (already have 3, but they are the old wasp ones and I have been looking for an excuse to buy the newer models). Thanks for the well-reasoned post, SHUPPET. I have been wondering about Zoaps for a while, as mine tend to underperform. Now I know why.
I have to say the thoughts on the zopes was very thought provoking. I too have fallen into practice of zopes.
Almost for the very reasons that SHUPPET said, they provide back up synapse pegs and aren't very threatening. It's very easy to think "well it's 50 points, so what" but Tyranids don't have the luxury of wasting points.
I know that i am guilty of being afraid to just take a beating in order to try new things.
If only i could beat those friggin' Tau! Threads like these are great reads! thanks everyone.
SHUPPET wrote: It sucks for Warriors, EW would be great for them. However the reason they are picked now and not in 5E codex, in 5E we had many good Synapse creatures. Flyrants, Zoanthropes, Tervigons, Swarmlord, Shellrants, Tyranid Prime.
In 6E, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these was given a massive nerf. Flyrants got off the easiest. The bulk of the rest are complete trash tier. This is what makes Warriors playable. Terrible codex writing.
Just so I'm keeping up here - exactly how are Warriors better than Shrikes against Eldar or Tau, other than saving you the points of a Termagant squad of course?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the whole S8 weapons counter Warriors thing is a bit Of a mmyth. S8 blasts do. For 180 pts, 6 Warriors take as many Melta hits to kill as a Tyrannofex for the same price. Melta and Lascannons do not invalidate your Warriors, you are no worse off than had you taken almost any of our other MCs. The real issue is S8+ blasts who will wipe and entire squad in a shot. People need to actually think about why models are bad and not just regurgitate trash.
And people need to stop making this into a personal crusade against others.
Forr the record, the vehicle changes mean that there is one S8+ blast weapon coming back with some flavour over here. Vindicator. The Demolisher, with its AP 2 and the fact blasts no longer halve against vehicles if the centre drifts means that the Demolisher is perfect for just deleting..well...anything. A S10, AP2 large blast that rerolls to pen due to Ordnance? Yikes. S8+ blasts are not a rarity to find either and never have been.
The difference against Eldar and Tau? That 4+ save. You may get across the field quicker but both Eldar and Warriors turn overwatch into pain - either through Divination or through sheer volume of fire for overwatch as well as other upgrades. Scoff against the 4+ save all you like, but 50% is better than 33.3%.
Warriors are Troops - thus have objective secured. Shrikes are Fast Attack - their mobility is hampered by the fact they cannot reliably contest or deny objectives. You mentioned your love of Onslaught and using MoA to your advantage - Warriors are prime targets for these as it lets them advance more effectively and they CAN deny objectives straight out. Objective Secured is very, very important. And it's probably the reason MSU troops are coming back in fashion as just one survivor can deny all the Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support in the world from claiming an objective or even contesting it. Even small warrior broods can contribute through securing objectives in a far more reliable fashion than anything else.
Not to mention the fact that pinning is also incredibly potent in this edition. Pinned units = No Overwatch. A barebones warrior unit with a barbed strangler is gloriously cheap and provides a 3 foot range to pin things in - helping the units that advance a fair bit more. I should imagine that putting ranged weapons on Shrikes is something of a waste of their potential, much as melee weapons on a majority unit of warriors can be seen as such (oh 4th ed, I miss you and your Leaping Warriors) and most configurations we've seen in here have featured melee upgrades - making the cost of shrikes even more so.
More points, a worse save (that can be denied by bolter/shruicat fire) and no Objective Secured.
Now, Shrikes have their uses. But against two armies with an abundance of AP 5 weapons as well as high strength, multiple shot cover ignoring weapons Shrikes are going to be more a liability. You may think you need them for their mobility - against Tau and Eldar? Your mobility is a joke. Jet Packs, Jet Bikes and Fast Skimmers will see to that. Oh, forgot to mention, these Fast Skimmers with the Eldar are the same ones that come with a cover ignoring multishot weapon. The jet units all come bristling with AP 5 or better weaponry. You're not going to be hiding from those with cover hopping for LoS either.
True, in 5E we had very, very good synapse options. Tervigons were clearly broken and got balanced, Flyrants are much on par with what we have now (which I dare say got BETTER in 6th and 7th ed. than their 5th ed. counterparts), Zoeys suffered from the loss of Spores, the Swarmlord...meh. Wasn't too fond of him in the first place. The Prime suffered as well.
But the lost of EW also hurt in the era of spammed missile launchers and abundance force, melta, las-plas. Don't forget, EW didn't just apply to warriors but also to anything within Synapse range. It was not...pleasant.
But Objective Secured is the main thing warriors have going for them over Shrikes. The ability to park yourself on an objective, even if only with one straggler and completely deny it to all bar enemy troops is somewhat important in a game where of the two 'types' of missions there are over 50% of them are objective focused.
I feel that Maelstrom missions lean more to our favour than they do for Knights - simply because we have objective secured while they do not - doubly so with Skyblight gargoyles - and 50% of the random objectives we roll are Secure X. But also helped to see that they were tough...
Knights - too hard for us to kill reliably at range and far too risky to go into melee with (Because that D weapon hurts.) Was it through mass HP stripping? Also, did the Electroshock have significant impact?
Still in love with your haruspex, I see. At least they are an option against LR's and heavy armor with their crushing claws (I'm assuming they have them, no?).
Good luck.
Indeed I am! I love the way it looks.
Plus, it was given to me as a birthday gift, so I would feel like a real twatwaffle if I didn't use it.
Still in love with your haruspex, I see. At least they are an option against LR's and heavy armor with their crushing claws (I'm assuming they have them, no?).
Good luck.
Indeed I am! I love the way it looks.
Plus, it was given to me as a birthday gift, so I would feel like a real twatwaffle if I didn't use it.
Could have been worse. You could have been given Pyrovores....wait, mind you, they do make rather good Biovores, don't they?
Actually, wait, Harus are surprisingly good in that anti-armour big critter role...only problem is our ever crowded elites slot. As usual.
Have you had much joy with him? (I feel it's a him. I want to call him Harry.)
I wouldn't say every single one of those units were nerfed. Flyrants and zoans definitely got a buff. But the rest, yeah.
Flyrants you can make a case for. Maybe to some, 30 pt reduction and 1 grounding test per turn outweighs losing all rolls on Biomancy, being able to glide into combat the turn after a swoop, losing precision shots, having your Vector Strike nerfed into useless or one step from it, having their Smash get the same treatment, Devourers losing their check, and Old Adversary upgrade no longer giving Preferred Enemy bubble.. I guess that's all subjective though, I would be more than happy to pay 30 pts and take more grounding tests in return for all that crap back. Especially seeing how nice Flyrants WS is, but I digress. Remains a nerf in my book though.
The Zoanthropes though - I just can't see it. How the hell can you call these things buffed? The 10 pt reduction and a free roll on our new table? Look a bit deeper than the surface, the new table is mostly crap for them and they traded out the utility option of THREE rolls on Biomancy for it. Warp Lance as a power got worse, both in strength and reliability. Then they got BoS, all or nothing nature making Warp Lance even worse than before, the best thing about them was taking 3 and getting a couple or even one AP1 lance get through for a good roll to explode - no longer is this an option. Well, that's assuming they still had their option of pods, which was so good for them that it was auto include. Nope, this has all been nerfed, and they are relegated to Synapse pegs, which they do 10 pts cheaper but 5x worse with their crap tier Power options, as their only role. It's arguable that they got buffed in this role in the sense that the Elite slots opened up, but given that Warriors still do this better or equally well 9 times out of 10, and that they lost everything else that made them good in 5E, and then add to all this that any power they cast is easier to deny than before (even if not overly so), then I just can't see how these have been anything but undeniably nerfed. If you are telling me you would not swap the current ones out of the codex for last editions 60 pt ones, that do everything it does but better, but can also provide roles like dropPodding, mobile, more reliable to cast and hit with, AP1 Warp Lances for brilliant anti-tank,that could all cast their powers reliably without eating 6 Warpcharges per Lance, could take a Biomancy roll on each, etc, then I don't know what to say to that - more power to you I guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
But Objective Secured is the main thing warriors have going for them over Shrikes. The ability to park yourself on an objective, even if only with one straggler and completely deny it to all bar enemy troops is somewhat important in a game where of the two 'types' of missions there are over 50% of them are objective focused.
Before I begin, it was a genuine question, not a "personal crusade against you". Such a thing does not interest me in the slightest.
The Armor Save thing makes perfect sense, thank you. Although I'm sure it's doing very little against Tau.
The Objective Secured, not so much. I don't know about you but I'd prefer to have the mobility to make it into combat with either Tau or Wave Serpents a turn earlier (or at all), as opposed to sitting around trying to contest an objective with Warriors against either race.
I don't think it's all that clear cut which would be more effective on the battlefield vs both those races tbh, both would have their merits.
Different folks have different tastes. Let's leave it at that. I'm still playing with ideas to make my weekend of painting interesting.
Now, there is the following options with the currently floating poiints...
Drop the Hive Tyrant (or Trygon) and 2 Zoanthropes.
Get 2 Dakkafexes and have 30 points spare.
I'd lose a total of 6 Warp Charges (putting me on 8 before the dice roll) and would lose some of the synapse overlap.
The return, if I get onlsaught you won't scream angrily at me for 'wasting' it. Ditto for MoA.
Actually, I might go with that. Though I hope you realise my hatred for you burns as I paint the mass of fleshy tones that are 2 carnifexes. (So...much...bone....maybe I could be lazy and paint my converted 3rd ed carnifexes...yeah...they're more armour than skin!)
Paint frowns on the Carnifexes head carapace to represent that
Drop the Trygon IMO. Quick question, what exactly is it that you want it for? From there it's easier to tell whether you need to keep it or whether something could do it's job better.
SHUPPET wrote: Paint frowns on the Carnifexes carapace to represent that
Drop the Trygon IMO. Quick question, what exactly is it that you want it for? From there it's easier to tell whether you need to keep it or whether something could do it's job better.
Wraithknight/Riptide discouragement. Also, small squad deterrent. Trygons with toxin will eat those, they will eat command squads, terminator squads (apart from TH/SS) or any other small, armoured squads that could prove annoying. I5 is mighty handy along with WS 5 for that.
To add to what Shuppet has said about zoans and troops...
I have been preaching the use of MSU warriors since our new codex dropped. 100pts gives you a unit you can put in cover, (keep one model out of LoS), pertty resilient, decent in combat, and can take 36" range potshots while being OS and synapse.
In 2K I was running 3-4 of them. I *did* switch one to 10gaunts+Zoan for a few of reasons
1) I really like being able to use gaunts to speed bump or corral an enemy unit
2) I still have the same number of synapse and troops units
3) Gives me a roll to maybe get a cool psy power.
4) In 7th, even without a decent power, it gives 2 more dice for my flyrants to use.
I just don't think zoans are very good, and much prefer having warriors around.
Another option, however, is a 5pack of stealers. They can infiltrate, do not need synapse, are only 70pts and can do some CC damage. I would use them to park on an objective, but hopefully be close enough to support the warriors if they get charged. (5 stealers isn't enough to attack much, but is nice as a second unit into a fight.)
Last of all.... out of nowhere comes.... rippers.
for 45 pts you get a unit that can Deepstrike, is so small its easy to hide out of LoS, and is less worried about synapse than gaunts. Yes, they will slowly eat themselves, but only slowly. They are susceptible to S6+ shooting if you can't get them out of LoS, but they are cheap and small. I would gladly take them over a gaunt brood most of the
time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trygons got nerfed in the codex, and then hit again via 7th. They are just not worth their points anymore.
One of the big issues i get stuck on, and i know it's just in my head, is alot of my lists don't feel "Tyranid-y", i love the idea of swarms of gaunts intermixed with the big boys but on the table it just never works. /endtears
2x2 Lictors can get to combat quicker, more reliably, and still throw down heavy with the units mentioned. I think if a single Trygon is in threat range of either a WK or a Riptide, your opponent is either killing it, taking it to low enough HP to lose the combat, or just straight moving out of it's threat range. Ofc Lictors are a costly $$ purchase from GW and not something a lot of people have laying around. Exocrine does really well against most of them, but honestly - taking a blob of TS Gargs will cost a similar amount, be harder to deal with and faster than a Trygon, and at the very least knock something out of the fight with great haste.
But I do think you could just take 200 pts of just about anything though and probably get better results than a Trygon, e.g. even 50 Termagants just provides a perma tarpit for anything mentioned (even multiple things), effectively knocking them out of the fight until you reinforce the combat with an MC or 2 of your own.
Dakkafexes probably don't fill the role of the Trygon, so you might want to take out the other thing you were considering removing for them if you want to take them (they are pretty swell). However I'd definitely consider rethinking that Trygon regardless.
I wouldn't say every single one of those units were nerfed. Flyrants and zoans definitely got a buff. But the rest, yeah.
Flyrants you can make a case for. Maybe to some, 30 pt reduction and 1 grounding test per turn outweighs losing all rolls on Biomancy, being able to glide into combat the turn after a swoop, losing precision shots, having your Vector Strike nerfed into useless or one step from it, having their Smash get the same treatment, Devourers losing their check, and Old Adversary upgrade no longer giving Preferred Enemy bubble.. I guess that's all subjective though, I would be more than happy to pay 30 pts and take more grounding tests in return for all that crap back. Especially seeing how nice Flyrants WS is, but I digress. Remains a nerf in my book though.
The Zoanthropes though - I just can't see it. How the hell can you call these things buffed? The 10 pt reduction and a free roll on our new table? Look a bit deeper than the surface, the new table is mostly crap for them and they traded out the utility option of THREE rolls on Biomancy for it. Warp Lance as a power got worse, both in strength and reliability. Then they got BoS, all or nothing nature making Warp Lance even worse than before, the best thing about them was taking 3 and getting a couple or even one AP1 lance get through for a good roll to explode - no longer is this an option. Well, that's assuming they still had their option of pods, which was so good for them that it was auto include. Nope, this has all been nerfed, and they are relegated to Synapse pegs, which they do 10 pts cheaper but 5x worse with their crap tier Power options, as their only role. It's arguable that they got buffed in this role in the sense that the Elite slots opened up, but given that Warriors still do this better or equally well 9 times out of 10, and that they lost everything else that made them good in 5E, and then add to all this that any power they cast is easier to deny than before (even if not overly so), then I just can't see how these have been anything but undeniably nerfed. If you are telling me you would not swap the current ones out of the codex for last editions 60 pt ones, that do everything it does but better, but can also provide roles like dropPodding, mobile, more reliable to cast and hit with, AP1 Warp Lances for brilliant anti-tank,that could all cast their powers reliably without eating 6 Warpcharges per Lance, could take a Biomancy roll on each, etc, then I don't know what to say to that - more power to you I guess.
Don't forget flyrants got a buff to BS4 as well.
Tyranid powers are actually quite good, and now both the flyrant and the zoan gets 3 of them! How is that not a buff? I can tell you that I'm not missing Biomancy that much, but to each their own.
Now your zoan basically gives 18" synapse as opposed to 12" back then. He is perfect as a beacon of synapse in your backfield and although the model is tall, he isn't really all that hard to hide. Plus now, he is scoring as well. As for Warp Lance, I mainly used it as an "attack of opportunity" rather than as a go-to offense. If a tank gets close enough, I will shoot at it but I've never played the zoan as an aggressive tank-hunter so the drop from AP1 to AP2 isn't really a big deal, at least not to me.
Yes, he lost his drop pod. That just means that now you aren't sacrificing 180-pts of zoans just to kill 1 tank and you get an extra 40-pts (?) to spend on other parts of the army.
The role of the zoanthrope has changed. Just because he lost a little doesn't mean he got worse. What happened is that his "strengths" have shifted and now he is better served in a much different role than what he had before. I can tell you this much. I hardly ever used him in 5th. Now, in 6th and 7th, he is a staple of my army that I just can't do without. That's not what I would call a nerf.
1) I really like being able to use gaunts to speed bump or corral an enemy unit
Thing is, 3 Warriors can do this as well. With 9 T4 4+ wounds S4 attacks they stand a better chance to do it more resiliently than Terms against anything without a Fist, while likely doing a lot more damage them and striking first. As well as having much better combat upgrades. Well, much better upgrades in general.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then I guess it's a play style difference jy because my experience is exactly the opposite. I was actually prone to running 9 in 5E, they were so versatile and I loved them. Nowadays they are a very very niche pick for me, but I see the value of Dominion apparently has a big effect on your play style. It's probably something I should have mentioned in my Zope Analysis, but I literally forgot it - that's how little effect the option of Dominion has had on my games. This is probably a play style difference but I'd still much much prefer to play within the 6" restriction difference between Warriors natural Synapse compared to Zopes dominion range (assuming succesful casts), simply for the fact that 1 is adding something (a lot) more to my army than just the Synapse. I can't from my perspective see how losing all that excellence for a change in roles (a role that it already could do) is a buff. If you never played them in 5E I can see how you might view it otherwise, but I think very few would share that experience, just speculation though. Just a question for you to mull though, Are you sure that the reason you are playing Zopes now is because they have gotten buffed, or has the need for having a Synapse peg in your army just increased?
Oh, forgot the BS4 on the Flyrants - that is a good one actually. I think there's something else that got better on them too although I can't think of it right now. The benefits of ML2 perhaps. Not sure. Doesn't outweigh Biomancy for me, but I do concede that this one can be argued. As I said however, these guys got the lightest end of the stick when it came to the rebalancing of Synapse creatures, I mean we all still use em regardless right?
Also, lovely to see Knights.
I feel that Maelstrom missions lean more to our favour than they do for Knights - simply because we have objective secured while they do not - doubly so with Skyblight gargoyles - and 50% of the random objectives we roll are Secure X. But also helped to see that they were tough...
Knights - too hard for us to kill reliably at range and far too risky to go into melee with (Because that D weapon hurts.) Was it through mass HP stripping? Also, did the Electroshock have significant impact?
You are right concerning being a more favourable match up for the Nids.
I wasn't too sure what to expect, my first experience at both maelstrom and Knights.
The Knights went down mostly to Devourer fire
Most of the time I wasn't positioned to use the Electroshock Grubs. For instance I put myself in a more favourable position at the side of the Knights with 2 Onslaughts cast turn 1.
If I couldn't have hit side I would have moved close enough to use the Haywire flamers with Onslaught. After that It was just more favourable to use the Devourers, I didn't actually use Electroshock grubs once.
I can see/have experienced the uses though and I think its a valuable upgrade.
Otherwise the Harpies were ok at stripping a hull, putting them to a side where he would unlikely use his shield is a good chance for stripping a hull.
I rolled a 1 for the only Haywire missile that hit from my Crone...
I scored about 2 Pens with Warp Lance from one of the Flyrants.
The thing that concerns me a little with this list is Multiple Wraith Knights otherwise I think it has a good chance against most things.
Oh and here's his Knights featured in a Forgeworld news letter:
Sinful Hero wrote: Are lash whips/boneswords ever worth it on Shrikes? Is it best to keep them cheap like warriors and just stick to devourers and a strangler?
How do Rending Claws match up to Swords?
I personally ran 3 shrikes with 2 rending claws and one Barbed Strangler. I found that I didn't miss having a LW/BS, but if you're going against a wraith knight heavy meta you may want it.
Word, the only upgrade I'd be temped by is Flesh Hooks, and then I'd drop the Devourers for Scything Talons...
1) I really like being able to use gaunts to speed bump or corral an enemy unit
Thing is, 3 Warriors can do this as well. With 9 T4 4+ wounds S4 attacks they stand a better chance to do it more resiliently than Terms against anything without a Fist, while likely doing a lot more damage them and striking first. As well as having much better combat upgrades. Well, much better upgrades in general.
I would never put upgrades on the warriors, it jacks up their cost way too fast.
But I wasn't talking about tarpits, but rather slowing them down.
Ex. Friend sent up his 20 khorne dogs, I advanced my gaunts to be 1" away and spread out 20-30" as needed. If I would have attacked, he would have just killed them; in this case I just get in his way so he can't move forward, and can't really move around. I can assault them, but they will just die and I get to shoot him again.
Have used the same basic tactic against IK or terminators etc.
If I used warriors, they would have just moved around them. Similarly, gaunts work better than warriors for bubble wrapping.... I still tend to take more warriors than gaunts, but I do miss the things gaunts can do.
Could have been worse. You could have been given Pyrovores....wait, mind you, they do make rather good Biovores, don't they?
Actually, wait, Harus are surprisingly good in that anti-armour big critter role...only problem is our ever crowded elites slot. As usual.
Have you had much joy with him? (I feel it's a him. I want to call him Harry.)
He's been doing ok. People who are used to just throwing their landraiders forward without a care in the world have been keeping him fed Other times, he soaks up tons of fire and keeps the rest of the army safe. Sometimes he gets ignored but smart people and doesn't get to do anything until turn 3, but he's still the best looking model on the table
So yes, I've been having a blast with him so far! He doesn't really see competitive play on our big tournaments once a month, but he gets used the other 29-30 days!
Tyranid powers are actually quite good, and now both the flyrant and the zoan gets 3 of them! How is that not a buff? I can tell you that I'm not missing Biomancy that much, but to each their own.
Now your zoan basically gives 18" synapse as opposed to 12" back then. He is perfect as a beacon of synapse in your backfield and although the model is tall, he isn't really all that hard to hide. Plus now, he is scoring as well. As for Warp Lance, I mainly used it as an "attack of opportunity" rather than as a go-to offense. If a tank gets close enough, I will shoot at it but I've never played the zoan as an aggressive tank-hunter so the drop from AP1 to AP2 isn't really a big deal, at least not to me.
This. All this.
The Tyranid psychic powers aren't to be sniffed at. The fact ALL our Psykers got one for free because of the fact we only use one Discipline and that one power is the one we had to make a choice to take before is a huge boon. Dominion for free?
Not to mention that Witchfire powers do not stop you shooting/running in your shooting phase - which makes Zoeys more mobile and makes the dakka Flyrants even more terrifying should they get Warp Lance - you can Warp Lance a small squad with a blast template or a vehicle with the Lance itself and then open fire at another choice target in your shooting phase.
Zoeys...aren't aggressive. They're threats. They're an 18 inch bubble of 'Are you sure you want to park that vehicle there?" that a lot of people will respect and avoid, simply because...though the chances are low, they don't want to risk them. Against anything bar a Ork or SM transport a Zoey can make its points back easily with that one lucky hit. And people know it.
Hello, everyone after alot of studying and playtesting I have decided to obey the will of the Hive Mind and make Tyranids my 7th edition army. Hive Fleet Newt is the name of my fleet and similar to Gorgon it will adapt quickly to achieve the Hive Mind goals. I currently do not own any models but that will soon change as I have a list that I believe is very unique and competitive. I am glad I did not play the old codex or play Nids in the previous edition, as alot of discussion in this thread is about what x unit used to do I can only imagine the massive cerebral trauma switching to 7th edition must have caused. Hive Fleet Newt is lucky because it has no memory of our monstrous creatures being able to smash through stuff with ease or flying monstrous creatures being agile enough to charge from the sky. With that being said how many Fleets have died because of their inability to adapt?
The first thing I would like to discuss is the thought or belief that one unit sucks. One of the reasons I am starting a Tyranid army is that Tyranids relys on synergy to win and rewards sound tactical decisions more than any other codex in my opinion, and because of that a unit can have a role and not suck. Nearly every tyranid can become good by giving it a certain role in your list, sure there are some units that standout such as a Flyrant but dont let the greatness of one unit turn another useless.
The second thing is what is up with all the shooty list? Living artillery is a decent formation but we cannot out shoot other armies. Remember Warboss Skarfang quote we do "proper fighting" , we need to get into cc thats where we kill. At the moment Living artillery formation combine with dakka carnifexes or skyblight aka 6 FMC are the two list that seems to be having the most success but I am sure there are other ways to win with nids.
Tyranid powers are actually quite good, and now both the flyrant and the zoan gets 3 of them! How is that not a buff? I can tell you that I'm not missing Biomancy that much, but to each their own.
Now your zoan basically gives 18" synapse as opposed to 12" back then. He is perfect as a beacon of synapse in your backfield and although the model is tall, he isn't really all that hard to hide. Plus now, he is scoring as well. As for Warp Lance, I mainly used it as an "attack of opportunity" rather than as a go-to offense. If a tank gets close enough, I will shoot at it but I've never played the zoan as an aggressive tank-hunter so the drop from AP1 to AP2 isn't really a big deal, at least not to me.
This. All this.
The Tyranid psychic powers aren't to be sniffed at. The fact ALL our Psykers got one for free because of the fact we only use one Discipline and that one power is the one we had to make a choice to take before is a huge boon. Dominion for free?
Not to mention that Witchfire powers do not stop you shooting/running in your shooting phase - which makes Zoeys more mobile and makes the dakka Flyrants even more terrifying should they get Warp Lance - you can Warp Lance a small squad with a blast template or a vehicle with the Lance itself and then open fire at another choice target in your shooting phase.
Zoeys...aren't aggressive. They're threats. They're an 18 inch bubble of 'Are you sure you want to park that vehicle there?" that a lot of people will respect and avoid, simply because...though the chances are low, they don't want to risk them. Against anything bar a Ork or SM transport a Zoey can make its points back easily with that one lucky hit. And people know it.
Low level players will be the only people letting a Zoanthrope restrict their movement.
A threat is not what they are, especially since the comparison is to a unit with 9x S4 WS5 attacks, Devourer (or Deathspitter) shooting, and and a S4 AP5 pinning blast, they actually do threaten a lot more points worth of models than 1 lucky Hull Point here and there.
The fact that Witchfires don't count as shooting do nothing for Zoeys.
I never said that the Psychic table is trash for Flyrants. You are saying that. I said that it's a trash tier table for Zopes. Flyrants have excellent mobility and can make much BETTER use of every single roll than Zoeys can, even if some of them are still less than ideal.
I backed up the statements with statistics math and hard logic as to why Zoanthropes powers suck. You saying that they are nothing to be sniffed it, doesn't change the fact that if you only have 1/5 good rolls and 4 trash or highly situational powers, that they will be worth their points one out of 5 games with the exception of highly situational events taking place.
As you said, they aren't at all aggressive, but this suggest that they might be tankier than the alternative, which they aren't at all, and all they add for this trade off is the POSSIBILITY of 36" bubble instead of 24", which seems quite ample. Throwing points away towards a possibility at further Synapse seems ridiculous to me. A possibility that eats Dice from your Flyrant, to even have a positive chance, and can be denied if it's critical. Sure, it's an "oh gak" option if something goes wrong. Considering Shrikes and Warriors have a larger natural bubble due to multiple model count, almost to the distance gained by Dominion, Shrikes can match and OUTRANGE the Synapse projection in a single direction, with the guarantee of not having to cast it. And most games the Dominion range won't even be necessary considering that everything they are providing to, with that 24" circle, is generally moving at the same speed, and we aren't exactly a "fan out and cover more ground army" like White Scars, considering our reliance on supporting assaults, close range weaponry, and AoE bubbles like Venomthrope, Living Artillery & Synapse itself. 12" projection in every direction seems quite ample.
Considering the power level sacrificed from your army by taking Zoeys, I think that taking the risk of Synapse not being large enough is better than taking that same risk with a POSSIBILITY to avert it, IF the unit in question is within a 6" margin of course, at the cost of taking a a list -50 pts per Zoanthrope.
All this aside, it's really doing absolutely nothing to mitigate the negative effect of the IB rule on your army, a point which has been entirely ignored with the whole dominion argument. You are still just making your army weaker for the purpose of Synapse with Zoeys, the point of Warriors and even Shrikes is providing Synapse WITHOUT weakening your army.
Tyranid powers are actually quite good, and now both the flyrant and the zoan gets 3 of them! How is that not a buff? I can tell you that I'm not missing Biomancy that much, but to each their own.
Now your zoan basically gives 18" synapse as opposed to 12" back then. He is perfect as a beacon of synapse in your backfield and although the model is tall, he isn't really all that hard to hide. Plus now, he is scoring as well. As for Warp Lance, I mainly used it as an "attack of opportunity" rather than as a go-to offense. If a tank gets close enough, I will shoot at it but I've never played the zoan as an aggressive tank-hunter so the drop from AP1 to AP2 isn't really a big deal, at least not to me.
This. All this.
The Tyranid psychic powers aren't to be sniffed at. The fact ALL our Psykers got one for free because of the fact we only use one Discipline and that one power is the one we had to make a choice to take before is a huge boon. Dominion for free?
Not to mention that Witchfire powers do not stop you shooting/running in your shooting phase - which makes Zoeys more mobile and makes the dakka Flyrants even more terrifying should they get Warp Lance - you can Warp Lance a small squad with a blast template or a vehicle with the Lance itself and then open fire at another choice target in your shooting phase.
Zoeys...aren't aggressive. They're threats. They're an 18 inch bubble of 'Are you sure you want to park that vehicle there?" that a lot of people will respect and avoid, simply because...though the chances are low, they don't want to risk them. Against anything bar a Ork or SM transport a Zoey can make its points back easily with that one lucky hit. And people know it.
Low level players will be the only people letting a Zoanthrope restrict their movement.
A threat is not what they are, especially since the comparison is to a unit with 9x S4 WS5 attacks, Devourer (or Deathspitter) shooting, and and a S4 AP5 pinning blast, they actually do threaten a lot more points worth of models than 1 lucky Hull Point here and there.
The fact that Witchfires don't count as shooting do nothing for Zoeys.
I never said that the Psychic table is trash for Flyrants. You are saying that. I said that it's a trash tier table for Zopes. Flyrants have excellent mobility and can make much BETTER use of every single roll than Zoeys can, even if some of them are still less than ideal.
I backed up the statements with statistics math and hard logic as to why Zoanthropes powers suck. You saying that they are nothing to be sniffed it, doesn't change the fact that if you only have 1/5 good rolls and 4 trash or highly situational powers, that they will be worth their points one out of 5 games with the exception of highly situational events taking place.
As you said, they aren't at all aggressive, but this suggest that they might be tankier than the alternative, which they aren't at all, and all they add for this trade off is the POSSIBILITY of 36" bubble instead of 24", which seems quite ample. Throwing points away towards a possibility at further Synapse seems ridiculous to me. A possibility that eats Dice from your Flyrant, to even have a positive chance, and can be denied if it's critical. Sure, it's an "oh gak" option if something goes wrong. Considering Shrikes and Warriors have a larger natural bubble due to multiple model count, almost to the distance gained by Dominion, Shrikes can match and OUTRANGE the Synapse projection in a single direction, with the guarantee of not having to cast it. And most games the Dominion range won't even be necessary considering that everything they are providing to, with that 24" circle, is generally moving at the same speed, and we aren't exactly a "fan out and cover more ground army" like White Scars, considering our reliance on supporting assaults, close range weaponry, and AoE bubbles like Venomthrope, Living Artillery & Synapse itself. 12" projection in every direction seems quite ample.
Considering the power level sacrificed from your army by taking Zoeys, I think that taking the risk of Synapse not being large enough is better than taking that same risk with a POSSIBILITY to avert it, IF the unit in question is within a 6" margin of course, at the cost of taking a a list -50 pts per Zoanthrope.
All this aside, it's really doing absolutely nothing to mitigate the negative effect of the IB rule on your army, a point which has been entirely ignored with the whole dominion argument. You are still just making your army weaker for the purpose of Synapse with Zoeys, the point of Warriors and even Shrikes is providing Synapse WITHOUT weakening your army.
I think to put it simply, and to reflect what Shuppet is saying, is that if you're taking Zoanthropes for a Synapse node, you're wasting 50 points. Their damage output is very low INCLUDING their *potential* damage output. Compare this point to point with Warriors: You are gaining the same positive effects as with the Zoanthrope and yet gaining assured damage. 100 points of warriors vs. 100 points of Zoanthopes is really a no brainer when it comes to Synapse.
HOWEVER, as many people are taking Zoanthropes for Warp charge bolstering units, this is *the only* place that Zoanthropes outclass Warriors. Only if you take them in single model broods. This is because of how the psychic phase is working now. Since it takes 3 Warp charges to successfully cast catalyst (or any other WC 1 power) a Flyrant can't (as reliably) cast a WC 1 power with it's own warp charges brought to the table. Yes, I realize there are the d6 additional that each player gets, but as we all know, reliance on the randomness of 40k is not how players came up with the Seer council. The best builds in the game mitigate randomness as completely as they can.
So, to pay 50 points for a 2 extra warp charges AND synapse doesn't seem like that large of an investment. But don't let that fool you into thinking that Zoanthropes are threatening...again, here's the comparison:
100 points of Zoanthropes: The good -4 extra warp charges
-2 extra rolls on the psychic table (if your Flyrants get screwed)
-2 separate synapse nodes
-3++ save
The bad -Not troops
-T4 can/will be ID'd
-Reliance on the synapse nodes
-Little to no direct damage output/ threat (including range and actual damage caused)
-Casting will drain warp charges from your more potent psykers
-Reduces the number of elite slots available to you and thereby reduces Primary CADFOC slots available to you
100 points of Warriors The good -Typically taken as part of a Formation, so therefore don't hamstring one of your Primary CADFOC slots
-While not always, Objective secured means the MUST be dealt with eventually
-9 wounds will take some effort to chew through
-Can/will pack a 36" pinning, large blast weapon
-Still provide synapse
-Will be able to "hold their own" against other basic units
-Because their troops, they have great flexibility
The bad -T4 can/will be ID'd, so they MUST be in cover
-4+ save isn't very good/reliance on cover
-Will fold to any unit that is remotely designed for assault, not to mention powerfists
-Upgrades beyond 100 points are pricey and typically discouraged
-Not psykers, so can't help Flyrants with Warp charges
I think it's pretty even. It really depends on what role you want them to play in your army. Most experienced Tyranid players (who also already use Warriors) will tell you since their used in lots of formations they are a no brainer. They aren't, however, an auto include over a Zoanthrope in all situations.
I, personally, for what it's worth, would rather take the Warriors with a Barbed Strangler over a Zoanthrope. Pretty much any day. Especially since I'll be using Living Artillery more than Skyblight. I think that if you're a Tyranid player looking to play Skyblight, you're are better off taking Zoanthropes.
I like both, for different reasons, I'm personally more inclined towards Zoeys with psuedo scoring and the fear factor. Unless we're explicitly talking Living Artillery.
Nice write up roxor, I think you just about covered everything, I think from there people can form an accurate opinion on which one is better. E.g. Reading that list to me says that Warriors are the hands down better choice, while your interpretation. Is that they are about even. What you have there Is a fair list of FACTS there and the rest is open for interpretation, everyone will take their own from it, and it does differ from situation to situation. Zoeys are the right choice in certain lists.
One or two things I will mention though - Warriors are WS5 with the attacks and wounds of 3 TAC marines each, and only 1 point worse in the save, for 2/3 of the price, and don't get weaker per wound lost only every 3. They do not fold in combat, it's where they want to be - however obviously not against anything with a Fist ! Fists and equivalents definitely won't make for a cost effective engagement most times. However in other situations, they thrive in combat.
Also worth mentioning that as a plus to Warriors is that they take a troop slot, which we generally have to just spend minimum points filling with min sized mandatory troops as is. So replacing one of these really helps mitigate their cost, even if it's not specifically netting you any free points.
Upgrades are definitely not worth mentioning as a negative to taking Warriors over Zopes, they are OPTIONAL, Zopes have none, and some of the upgrades are actually really good. Deathspitters being the main one.
Being able to benefit from Flyrant Outflanking should also be listed as a benefit,
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also don't think it's fair to list S8 shooting as a disadvantage to picking the Warriors, if you aren't going to list say bolster fire as a disadvantage to Zoeys. 2 Zopes die to 4-5 S8 shots. 3 Warriors die to 3. If you give them a screen or cover of some sort combined with a Venomthrope, it becomes 9 - this is an option Zopes don't have, their resilience is already all built off the same save, at which point they just become 50 pt Warriors with no guns. Yep. Their "mandatory cover" is not actually that mandatory, trading a little bit of resilience against S8 out in the open, for a LOT more firepower. With cover on both squads however the Warriors become more than twice as durable as Zopes. This means Zopes have about 150% the durability of a Warrior against S8 natural saves, under cover saves it swings back Waariors way, giving them 200% the durability of the Zopes. It's not even a bad cost effective ratio for you even without cover, we really need to dispel this myth, as natural Warriors are more durable to S8 shooting than Tervigons, Dakkafexes, Exocrines, Hive Tyrants (assuming they hit). P much all the popular MCs except for Mawloc . You don't even want to know how much better they are at eating Lascannons than crap like Trygons or the Swarmlord. Tyranno's are an interesting one, but if they get their save they are obviously tankier, however if their AT weaponry is also AP2, well, you are once again going to live longer with the same amount of points in Warriors On the subject in the opening statement of bolter or light arms, 2 Zopes will take 24 hits, 3 Warriors will take 36. That's a 150% increase to durability the Warriors way.
Tl;dr compared to Zoanthropes, Warriors are no less durable to S8 shooting than Zoanthropes are less resilient to light arms. The Warrior can however be played to increase his durability in both these fields at little to no cost (we all run Venoms). Their durability is comparable at best, or otherwise slanted towards the Warriors. Being more resistant to light arms also helps keep up your saturation - they may not be High toughness per se, but if they weather just as many light arms shots as our MCs, and even more S8 ones (which they do) than they may as we'll be. I'm going to share a bunch of math soon and put the statement about Lascannons/Melta counter Warriors to bed.
It also needs be mentioned that S8 blasts heavily counter Warriors.
Although S8+ blasts are not hugely common you will run into them even if it's not likely to be every game (or even every second, or third), but this is THE way that points investments into Warriors can be denied by your opponent, one blast can wipe an entire squad. Cover saves ARE mandatory against Vindicators. Luckily between gribble screens, MC screens / LoS blocking, and Venomthropes, we got cover saves by the bucket full.
Spoletta wrote: I know, i'm not saying that the warriors are our best unit in codex, just that some pages ago taking a warrior squad was considered hive heresy and now we admit they have a role they can fulfill ( i always took them but i play swarmy with no MC, they are a mainstay for me).
Even living artillery wasn't considered so much (playable but not great) and now it's turning into the new skyblight.
Mind sharing your list? Seems very unusual and i'm curious.
SHUPPET wrote: Nice write up roxor, I think you just about covered everything, I think from there people can form an accurate opinion on which one is better. E.g. Reading that list to me says that Warriors are the hands down better choice, while your interpretation. Is that they are about even. What you have there Is a fair list of FACTS there and the rest is open for interpretation, everyone will take their own from it, and it does differ from situation to situation. Zoeys are the right choice in certain lists.
One or two things I will mention though - Warriors are WS5 with the attacks and wounds of 3 TAC marines each, and only 1 point worse in the save, for 2/3 of the price, and don't get weaker per wound lost only every 3. They do not fold in combat, it's where they want to be - however obviously not against anything with a Fist ! Fists and equivalents definitely won't make for a cost effective engagement most times. However in other situations, they thrive in combat.
Also worth mentioning that as a plus to Warriors is that they take a troop slot, which we generally have to just spend minimum points filling with min sized mandatory troops as is. So replacing one of these really helps mitigate their cost, even if it's not specifically netting you any free points.
Upgrades are definitely not worth mentioning as a negative to taking Warriors over Zopes, they are OPTIONAL, Zopes have none, and some of the upgrades are actually really good. Deathspitters being the main one.
Being able to benefit from Flyrant Outflanking should also be listed as a benefit,
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also don't think it's fair to list S8 shooting as a disadvantage to picking the Warriors, if you aren't going to list say bolster fire as a disadvantage to Zoeys. 2 Zopes die to 4-5 S8 shots. 3 Warriors die to 3. If you give them a screen or cover of some sort combined with a Venomthrope, it becomes 9 - this is an option Zopes don't have, their resilience is already all built off the same save, at which point they just become 50 pt Warriors with no guns. Yep. Their "mandatory cover" is not actually that mandatory, trading a little bit of resilience against S8 out in the open, for a LOT more firepower. With cover on both squads however the Warriors become more than twice as durable as Zopes. This means Zopes have about 150% the durability of a Warrior against S8 natural saves, under cover saves it swings back Waariors way, giving them 200% the durability of the Zopes. It's not even a bad cost effective ratio for you even without cover, we really need to dispel this myth, as natural Warriors are more durable to S8 shooting than Tervigons, Dakkafexes, Exocrines, Hive Tyrants (assuming they hit). P much all the popular MCs except for Mawloc . You don't even want to know how much better they are at eating Lascannons than crap like Trygons or the Swarmlord. Tyranno's are an interesting one, but if they get their save they are obviously tankier, however if their AT weaponry is also AP2, well, you are once again going to live longer with the same amount of points in Warriors On the subject in the opening statement of bolter or light arms, 2 Zopes will take 24 hits, 3 Warriors will take 36. That's a 150% increase to durability the Warriors way.
Tl;dr compared to Zoanthropes, Warriors are no less durable to S8 shooting than Zoanthropes are less resilient to light arms. The Warrior can however be played to increase his durability in both these fields at little to no cost (we all run Venoms). Their durability is comparable at best, or otherwise slanted towards the Warriors. Being more resistant to light arms also helps keep up your saturation - they may not be High toughness per se, but if they weather just as many light arms shots as our MCs, and even more S8 ones (which they do) than they may as we'll be. I'm going to share a bunch of math soon and put the statement about Lascannons/Melta counter Warriors to bed.
It also needs be mentioned that S8 blasts heavily counter Warriors.
Although S8+ blasts are not hugely common you will run into them even if it's not likely to be every game (or even every second, or third), but this is THE way that points investments into Warriors can be denied by your opponent, one blast can wipe an entire squad. Cover saves ARE mandatory against Vindicators. Luckily between gribble screens, MC screens / LoS blocking, and Venomthropes, we got cover saves by the bucket full.
I thought I put that S8 fire is bad for both, didn't I? I'll have to look!
I like this debate but Hive Fleet Newt has never been in a situation where it is choosing between Warriors and Zoanthropes. The only similarity that they share is that they both have synaspe. If your decision is purely base off of I need more synaspe I think that Zoanthropes is better because its cheaper, warp charges, easy to hid, and a extra underrated psychic power.
I think one of the main reason why Warriors see use is because they are required with formations. Imagine if we had a choice to choose warriors or zoanthropes to go with living artillery, I believe hands down most fleets will go with zoanthropes. Shuppet I believe your fleet is a little bias as you must be recking havoc in your part of the galaxy with the living artillery formation. The Hive Mind has warn me about the weakness of our formation which oddly enough is the Warriors. If our Warriors are destroyed our twin-linked is gone aswell as a source of synaspe. If facing an inteligent prey as this galaxy has shown to have our warrior squad will be a top priority, which I thought was easy to destroy.
we really need to dispel this myth, as natural Warriors are more durable to S8 shooting than Tervigons, Dakkafexes, Exocrines, Hive Tyrants (assuming they hit).[/b] P much all the popular MCs except for Mawloc . You don't even want to know how much better they are at eating Lascannons than crap like Trygons or the Swarmlord.
However your fleet has discovered something that needs to be absorbed by the Hive Mind and shared. I am under the impression that 3 str 8 shots that get through will kill a warrior squad, while 3 str 8 shots on a Tervigon will still live, please explain.
Lol, Hive Fleet Newt doesnt take into account how much something cost on paper. Target Priority during a game is purely based off of importance, and if killing a 100 point unit that buffs 4 other units is more important than destroying their most expensive unit than that is what should be done.
One Lascannon/Krak wound suffered by a XXX unit is a YY point (minimum) loss.
Dakkafex 37.5
Tervigon 32.5
Warrior 30
Haruspex 32
Exocrine 34
Dakka Flyrant 57.5
rigeld2 wrote: One Lascannon/Krak wound suffered by a XXX unit is a YY point (minimum) loss.
Dakkafex 37.5
Tervigon 32.5
Warrior 30
Haruspex 32
Exocrine 34
Dakka Flyrant 57.5
However, you also have to account for how much it will affect the performance of that unit.
In all the above cases apart from the Warriors a Lascannon/Krak wound does nothing to hamper the effectiveness of the unit it is placed on. The loss of a single wound does not reduce the fire output of a dakka flyrant or fex, the spawning of a tervigon or the firepower of a exocrine.
But such a wound on a Warrior brood reduces the brood's overall effectiveness - it reduces their synapse footprint, reduces their fire output (potentially by a lot if you were unlucky enough to have the Barbed Strangler be the closes to the enemy) and can possibly take them off an objective for a turn (if you were only just within range).
Another thing I've found is that players think "Ooooh... I can ID those dudes or cause a single wound on that thing. DIE WARRIORS!" and throw more missiles/lascannons their way instead of the Dakkafexes coming up to ruin their day. It's happened enough times against even good players that I don't understand it but I'll abuse it.
Another thing I've found is that players think "Ooooh... I can ID those dudes or cause a single wound on that thing. DIE WARRIORS!" and throw more missiles/lascannons their way instead of the Dakkafexes coming up to ruin their day. It's happened enough times against even good players that I don't understand it but I'll abuse it.
Yes, we often have so many things to shoot at that our opponent often shoot at the wrong things, making flooding the field with targets a serious advantage with us. However in the case of Swarmlords, living artillery warriors, or any buff unit killing them early is always a good choice. It is not the end of the world if they die as something will always die the trick is to take advantage of knowing that they want to kill certain units first. I dont know how many times I have won games because my opponent over extended to try to kill a certain unit.
Asmodas wrote: @CKO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just say that you don't own any Tyranid models, and had never played the army?
Yes, that is correct I do not own any models and have never played the army I only mention Hive Fleet Newt and Hive Mind to my post to add flavor. Does that some how make my comments or contribution to the thread less viable than others? You only have a handful of post does that somehow make your opinion on things irrelevate? I think not.
My personality type is analytical, I have spent several hours studying the codex and inspecting the internet for valuable information and I believe I know alot about the codex. I have read this thread, warseer thread, jy2 article and battle reports, frontline gaming articles, incontrol's battle reports, and hivemind I know for a fact that I have put more time, effort, and energy into learning the anatomy of Tyranids than the average player. Now all I need to do is start using my friends models and proxying to get battlefield experience, which is vital. In my current list I have one variable but I believe that the unit in question will do what its intended purpose is, besides that everything else already has a stamp of approvable by several battle reports. If I have said something that hasnt made sense please tell me!
rigeld2 wrote: One Lascannon/Krak wound suffered by a XXX unit is a YY point (minimum) loss.
Dakkafex 37.5
Tervigon 32.5
Warrior 30
Haruspex 32
Exocrine 34
Dakka Flyrant 57.5
However, you also have to account for how much it will affect the performance of that unit.
In all the above cases apart from the Warriors a Lascannon/Krak wound does nothing to hamper the effectiveness of the unit it is placed on. The loss of a single wound does not reduce the fire output of a dakka flyrant or fex, the spawning of a tervigon or the firepower of a exocrine.
But such a wound on a Warrior brood reduces the brood's overall effectiveness - it reduces their synapse footprint, reduces their fire output (potentially by a lot if you were unlucky enough to have the Barbed Strangler be the closes to the enemy) and can possibly take them off an objective for a turn (if you were only just within range).
This is true, they lose firepower per shot. this is why Warriors aren't as POWERFUL as our MCs. This is an inherit advantage that MCs have over infantry units,You would in all honestly likely be better off with a Dakkafex, if Synapse wasn't important. However it is, and the point of the comparison to MCs was to invalidate the statement you keep making, that Las/Melta counters Warriors, when really the overall points efficiency is no worse than shooting S8 at any MC and they still provide Synapse to the last man, making them a Synapse platform more durable than any of those MCs, even if they do lose firepower per wound. They still have better overall durability, and that Synapse stays up to the last guy (In the case of say a Dakkafex, if they eat 4 Lascannons shots the entire unit is dead, the Warrior is still standing, so the added efficiency mitigates this a little and sort of let's it work both ways). Even down to the 1 Warrior with a strangler and it still has countless more times they strength of even both remaining Zoanthrope (although one of the 2 stands a 2/3 chance of being dead after the same amount of S8 shooting, and are both gonna be extra dead by the time you are down to one Warrior if you kept em cover'ed).
Luck doesn't put the Warrior with the Cannon closest to the enemy - stupidity does. It's really not hard to put the middle Warrior behind the other two. The exception is deep striking melta, but they are highly likely to be killing the entire squad regardless. If they do somehow snipe the Cannon, rest assured that armies who love to DS into Tyranids are one our best match ups, and units that do it will never be cost effective, just off the nature of OUR army. We all have crazy amounts of firepower that we often can't use for a turn or two, and when we can it's often not against the ideal targets E.g. their AT weapons. Every unit brought to us mitigates our natural range disadvantage, I'm sure any of you who have played against drop pod Marines probably wondered why it was so easy for us even tho they got the alpha, the answer is they were essentially paying points to give us all the mobility we've ever needed.
Asmodas wrote: @CKO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you just say that you don't own any Tyranid models, and had never played the army?
Yes, that is correct I do not own any models and have never played the army I only mention Hive Fleet Newt and Hive Mind to my post to add flavor. Does that some how make my comments or contribution to the thread less viable than others? You only have a handful of post does that somehow make your opinion on things irrelevate? I think not.
My personality type is analytical, I have spent several hours studying the codex and inspecting the internet for valuable information and I believe I know alot about the codex. I have read this thread, warseer thread, jy2 article and battle reports, frontline gaming articles, incontrol's battle reports, and hivemind I know for a fact that I have put more time, effort, and energy into learning the anatomy of Tyranids than the average player. Now all I need to do is start using my friends models and proxying to get battlefield experience, which is vital. In my current list I have one variable but I believe that the unit in question will do what its intended purpose is, besides that everything else already has a stamp of approvable by several battle reports. If I have said something that hasnt made sense please tell me!
I think he was probably referring to your last post, it made it sound as though you were saying you won all the time with Tyranids, when I think you were just talkin about how the game works in general.
I will also recommend that you get out and play some games. Theory is great on paper, but unless you have amazingly gifted foresight (and you do not), you will start discovering a bunch of things didn't work as you planned and you will either immediately see why, or have to ask yourself why, and every time you work one of these things out, you will improve as a player.
I would recommend sharing experiences in here or asking advice on theory for those that do have the experience, as coming in here with no actual experience or models and telling people that Living Artillery is overrated because "Nids can't outshoot other armies" or that there is no unplayable units in the dex and we just aren't seeing the Synergy, well go out and prove it. At the very least to yourself. Take an army of Hormagants, Trygons, Pyrovores, Haruspexes, led by the Swarmlord, and mixed in with whatever you feel Synergizes well with them, see how you perform against anything with a half competitive list. I'm all for finding the true strength overlooked on some units where it is less than blatant - but sorry, but some units are just trash, and as you play more games with them you will begin to understand why, if your analytical diagnosis hasn't already told you why. It's not about he fact that something may have been better last dex, it's about the fact that it sucks NOW.
Don't get me wrong, the initial expectations content in your original post I found interesting and amusing, and it will be interesting to see where it leads you with time and experience on which units completely outclass others for their roles (because some do) a but you have to LET this happen, getting out there and playing, and actually doing proper analysis on whether a unit is worth it's points, not just whether or not it is capable of fulfilling a role. Because at the moment you are playing catch up and trying to talk strategy off theory, with and against people who have done all the same theory but also have a lot of experience. I'm not trying to be elitist: but there's nothing more annoying than that guy who comes in regurgitating everything he's read on the internet, telling us which strategys do and don't work, just because the majority of opinions found online said so.
Also, I personally think FrontLine Game is crazily overrated source of strategy knowledge. They put together nice Battlereps, this does not make them the best people to listen to for strategic advice. Same with bloggers, being a consistently entertaining write or provider of content, are doesn't make your Tervigon perform any less terrible when you chuck it in your Skyblight list. You mentioned inControl, while definitely one of the bigger faces of Tyranids, but he in particular has glaring mistakes in his builds and gameplay.
Use your brain and form your own opinions - as I will GUARANTEE that the bulk of what you will read has not had a lot of thought put behind it, and is mostly just the majority's surface level opinion, or the regurgitation of it by the masses. Sometimes this is accurate - Trygons cost nearly double what they should, there isn't much you can do with this. However a lot of things do change when you start putting decent thought into them and running the numbers. I think the whole Warriors against S8 shooting argument a few posts up is good proof of this.
Keep in mind 40k doesn't have professional level gamers. The closest we have is bloggers both interesting and competent enough to develop a following. However there is no real medium for professional players going deeper than surface level and debunking a lot of surface-level analysis, as you see happen in other forms of competitive gaming. 40k is a constantly evolving game with a lot of untread competitive ground for a lot of the middle tier armies. It's up to you to delve past the barrier of the group-think.
This isn't fully directed to you CKO, just more generalised, hopefully a lot of people will take something out of this for their own game, and not let the barrier of the sheep mentality that comes with doing everything they've read and been told to do, and not doing anything they haven't, hold back their gameplay any longer. Because that's what it does. If you put the work in yourself to finding other whether there is more to a matter than surface level opinions, well even if there turned out not to be, you've lost nothing and gained confirmation. Even I am still slowly discovering more as the need or situation arises that results in me looking at a unit from a different angle. This is how we improve.
Has anyone put any real thought into devourer gaunt's? I'm only asking as I've not seen them mentioned yet and by god can they put out some amount of firepower. I'm running either 3x20 or 4x15 and i swear there a holy terror round these part's.
I find the 4x15 are the best when backed up by 2 warrior teams with strangler's. That's 180 S4 shot's and 2 large blast's with pinning per turn. Not bad for under 700 points surely?.
I'm taking a little break from all my Necron battle reports to showcase some of the other armies and how they play in a competitive atmosphere. This will be my very first game with my new Tyranids in 7th Edition.
This is a practice game for the BAO with potential lists that we both may bring. My opponent is Jamie, aka Commander_Farsight here on dakka. The last time we played, it was my Necrons against a different version of his Farsight-bomb.
This time, he brought a much, much different Farsight build and I must say, it looks actually rather scary (at least for my bugs)! Jamie is still a relatively new player though, with much to learn about the competitive scene. However, he will be attending the BAO this year so requested some practice against me. I, of course, was happy to destroy all newcomers....I mean, to be his sparring partner for this game. Now Jamie does have experience playing against Skyblight back in 6th (when they were arguably much, much better than they are now). I believe that he actually won that game, though it was a closely fought one (correct me if I am wrong, Jamie). As for me, my bugs have always had trouble against Tau back in 6th. Let's just say they were one of 2 armies that I had a losing record against. So here we have the young gun with the ultimate bug-killing army but little competitive experience against the seasoned veteran with lots of tricks up his sleeves. Can Commander_Farsight finally claim the revenge that he has long sought after?
SHUPPET wrote: I think he was probably referring to your last post, it made it sound as though you were saying you won all the time with Tyranids, when I think you were just talkin about how the game works in general.
I win the majority of my games and I can see how my post come off as a person that is speaking with confidence.
SHUPPET wrote: I will also recommend that you get out and play some games. Theory is great on paper, but unless you have amazingly gifted foresight (and you do not), you will start discovering a bunch of things didn't work as you planned and you will either immediately see why, or have to ask yourself why, and every time you work one of these things out, you will improve as a player.
I agree with you as I have similar beliefs about theory on paper but I have played alot of games, just not with the Nid codex. I would like to know what have I said that you have classified as theory? Three strength eight attacks that gets through kills the Warrior unit while it doesnt kill a 6 wound montrous creature is not a theory but a fact.
I would recommend sharing experiences in here or asking advice on theory for those that do have the experience, as coming in here with no actual experience or models and telling people that Living Artillery is overrated because "Nids can't outshoot other armies" or that there is no unplayable units in the dex and we just aren't seeing the Synergy, well go out and prove it.
I have about a decade worth of experience to share, everything I know about 40k is not going to change because I decide to play Tyranids. I like Living Artillery but I think it is overrated, a single exocrine, 3 biovores, and a warrior squad with pinning and twin-linked weapons is a decent buff but not game changing. I dont believe shooting is our best option but I do understand how you can combine that formation with other twin-linked weapons to make a really good shooty list remember I am the one that thinks everything is playable. I think that type of list will have a hard time beating certain shooty list such as Tau. The formation greatest weakness is killing the warriors to get rid of the twin-linked buff. I say nids cant outshoot other armies because we do not have access to ignore cover str 8 ap 2 blast templates (Tau) or lots of twin-linked str 6 and str 7 shooting (eldar). Their weapons also are long range while all of our shooting is short range giving them another advantage but, that doesnt mean we cant beat them. I just think their range weapons are better than ours and that is the main reason why I said we cant outshoot other armies, I would love to learn from your experience how have you managed to beat other shooty list with living artillery.
SHUPPET wrote: At the very least to yourself. Take an army of Hormagants, Trygons, Pyrovores, Haruspexes, led by the Swarmlord, and mixed in with whatever you feel Synergizes well with them, see how you perform against anything with a half competitive list. I'm all for finding the true strength overlooked on some units where it is less than blatant - but sorry, but some units are just trash, and as you play more games with them you will begin to understand why, if your analytical diagnosis hasn't already told you why. It's not about he fact that something may have been better last dex, it's about the fact that it sucks NOW.
Lol, my analytical diagnosis that is a good one! I never said that I can somehow unlock the true potential of all units because of my supreme knowledge of Nids synergy. I apologize if I came off that way, all I was saying is that sometimes one unit does a job better than another so we automatically call the other unit trash. I know this for a fact that alot of units are judged unfairly because of how they are playtested. People simply replace a carnifex for a Haruspexe in their list and at the end of the game say the carnifex would have been better. The best way to judge a unit is to make a new list where it has a role instead of seeing if it can substitute another unit in your current list. Shuppet in your case if you are using Living Artillery why in the hadez would you add a Haruspex its a CC unit in a shooty list its going to get shot to shreds and not contribute to your shooting.
SHUPPET wrote: Don't get me wrong, the initial expectations content in your original post I found interesting and amusing, and it will be interesting to see where it leads you with time and experience on which units completely outclass others for their roles (because some do) a but you have to LET this happen, getting out there and playing, and actually doing proper analysis on whether a unit is worth it's points, not just whether or not it is capable of fulfilling a role. Because at the moment you are playing catch up and trying to talk strategy off theory, with and against people who have done all the same theory but also have a lot of experience. I'm not trying to be elitist: but there's nothing more annoying than that guy who comes in regurgitating everything he's read on the internet, telling us which strategys do and don't work, just because the majority of opinions found online said so.
I am never playing catch up when it comes to 40k. This entire post is about how you assume I do not know what I am talking about because I admit to not having a model but you have yet to respond to my comments which you have put in a theory category. If what I have said is theory and can easily be refuted by your actual battlefield experience please feel free to explain as I am here to learn. I do not agree with the majority if I did I would be like you and think that the majority of the units are outclass by others and you should only use a handful of units or Living Artillery and Skyblight. You are attacking my creditability instead of my tactics which I find quite annoying, just like you find people who study annoying.
SHUPPET wrote: Also, I personally think FrontLine Game is crazily overrated source of strategy knowledge. They put together nice Battlereps, this does not make them the best people to listen to for strategic advice. Same with bloggers, being a consistently entertaining write or provider of content, are doesn't make your Tervigon perform any less terrible when you chuck it in your Skyblight list. You mentioned inControl, while definitely one of the bigger faces of Tyranids, but he in particular has glaring mistakes in his builds and gameplay.
I agree with some of this but I use them as a source it cant hurt, I have a brain of my own but I needed more data.
SHUPPET wrote: Use your brain and form your own opinions - as I will GUARANTEE that the bulk of what you will read has not had a lot of thought put behind it, and is mostly just the majority's surface level opinion, or the regurgitation of it by the masses. Sometimes this is accurate - Trygons cost nearly double what they should, there isn't much you can do with this. However a lot of things do change when you start putting decent thought into them and running the numbers. I think the whole Warriors against S8 shooting argument a few posts up is good proof of this.
I agree I did research to get ideas I have never copy and paste someones list or agree with others 100% of the time as you can tell. I also would like to point out that I found the whole Warrior against s8 shooting argument interesting but at the end of the day useless borderline pointless. I have never killed a unit and ask myself how much did that unit cost especially if its a buff unit. I have never lost a buff unit and was happy about it because it was cheap point wise, I really need someone to explain this to me.
SHUPPET wrote: Keep in mind 40k doesn't have professional level gamers. The closest we have is bloggers both interesting and competent enough to develop a following. However there is no real medium for professional players going deeper than surface level and debunking a lot of surface-level analysis, as you see happen in other forms of competitive gaming. 40k is a constantly evolving game with a lot of untread competitive ground for a lot of the middle tier armies. It's up to you to delve past the barrier of the group-think.
This isn't fully directed to you CKO, just more generalised, hopefully a lot of people will take something out of this for their own game, and not let the barrier of the sheep mentality that comes with doing everything they've read and been told to do, and not doing anything they haven't, hold back their gameplay any longer. Because that's what it does. If you put the work in yourself to finding other whether there is more to a matter than surface level opinions, well even if there turned out not to be, you've lost nothing and gained confirmation. Even I am still slowly discovering more as the need or situation arises that results in me looking at a unit from a different angle. This is how we improve.
I know it is not directed towards me as you have classified me as a player that has come to this thread in need of help, when I have come to this thread to share and find small gems or something that might help me win. I agree with shuppet here to many players want to be good but dont put the time and energy into improving to do so. Shuppet I am knowledgeable because of my years of experience, hours of research, and games against Tyranids please do not question my creditability but my tactics.
foto69man wrote: Thank you all for convincing me to buy this model...amazing detail and I can't wait to field it tomorrow!
Would you be an awesome human being and take some dimensions for me?
I will take dimensions and post pics of the battle tomorrw as it's 1:30a here. But she did AMAZING...didn't lose a wound...and popped out 20 gargoyles at the end to take an objective
Iechine wrote: Eh lets not turn this thread into one of those, you two take that up in PM's if you need to measure each others thorax templates.
Thanks for the good advice, the two Hive Fleets temporarily got out of synaspe range but the Hive Mind quickly fixed that! Shuppet is cool although my fleet and his have their difference we can learn from each other. I do not pay as much attention to point cost as others when it comes to making a list, if the unit can do what I want it to do I will pay a little tax to include it in my list. If I am not mistaken my friend Shuppet evaluates units with point cost being one of the most important factors in deciding if it makes his list. I would like for him to give us an example as deciding what to use can be tricky!
I know I made it seem as if I know so much about nids because I reasearched the internet but at the same time I said I dont have any battlefield experience playing nids. Which makes it hard to believe that I can contribute to the thread right? Not exactly I am still a veteran at the game and I have played against nids, after all that research I am happy to reveal my 1850 list which should hopefully give me a little bit more credit with you guys.
Man did it take a long time to make this list, I studied the codex, dakka, warseer, frontline gaming, hive mind, and youtube combine that with my experience I made a mean list.
This list is made to overload the board with tyranids big and small. It has 38 toughness 6 wounds on 8 different units. I compared that number to Jy2 Sky Fleet Pandora list (Skyblight Formation) which has 33 wounds on 7 targets, some of them are not toughness 6 but they have flying, Reecius recent list (Living Artillery Formation) has 35 wounds on 7 targets although 6 are Hive Guard. All these list are completely different but target saturation is an important tactic especially with Tyranids and I needed something to compare my list to. Not only does the list have alot of high toughness wounds but it starts the game with 60 gaunts on the table. Four squads in total, one large squad and three small squads and with the tervigons there will be a minimum of 6 gaunt squads and I have a chance to win the game simply because I keep pumping out gaunts.
I will explain the units and upgrades that are not as popular. The tyrant guard unit is probably the first thing I use that isnt seen alot or at all because of the death of the walking Hive Tyrant. I think these guys are really good and is one of the gems in the codex. The majority of our monstrous creatures besides the Hive Tyrant and the expensive Trygon all have ws 3 making their 3-4 attacks damn near useless as you only get 2 hits. Well Tyrant Guard have WS 5, this squad has rending and crushing claws giving them 3 ws 5 atks at str 6 or 7 each. On the charge you are getting 8 Ws 5 str 7 ap 2 av bane atks all for 150 points that is in my opinion the best monstrous creature like option we have and it is very point efficient. You will be hitting marines on 3's and killing on 2's and vehicles will be wrecked with ease because of av bane and, with 2 guys you can multi-charge to try to kill multiple vehicles. This unit does what our monstrous creatures are suppose to do in cc, and if one of them dies the other one is technically just as good as our other monstrous creatures with 3 atks.
All of the tervigons have the electroshock grub upgrade aswell as crushing claws making them tank hunters. The template should do 1 glance and when you charge with your 4 av bane atks you should be able to do 2 hull points worth of damage. I have so much av bane and haywire in this list that vehicles should not be a problem.
The secret to the success of this list however is the incubator node formation. Instead of having 2 large blob squad of gaunts I have 3 small squads and 1 large squad thats 60 gaunts on the table to start the game. These guys race downfield with move-through cover to try to tie up stuff. Riptides are so busy with the Monstrous creatures and tyrant guard that they forget about the gaunts that will tie them up if they are not careful. Its almost comical when your opponent decides to focus his entire army firepower on killing 240 points worth of gaunts. Especially when you have 2 tervigons who are going to try to keep them coming, the incubator tervigon's re-rolls can hurt you sometimes but it usually means she makes large squads. I outflank the other one to put pressure on one board edge, with it creating gaunt squads it can become a problem quickly as they will have gaunts coming from a different direction. If I decide to send a flyrant that way the pressure on that edge multiplys. Dont forget that the tervigon is a tank hunter with electroshock grubs and crushing claws.
The tyrannofex main job is to provide a cover save while slowly moving towards an objective and flaming non-meqs off of objectives. The carnifex adds more dakka and is a good tank hunter. There is alot more small details such as psychic powers but this is the meat of it, so what do you guys think?
I'd drop the Tyrannofex and Venomthrope for another Dakkafex, 5 Devourers in all the 10 man Gant squads, and Toxin Sacs on the Incubator Tervigon.
With as many gants as you're planning to flood the field with, giving them poison seems useful. And I've never loved the Tyrannofex if you're using it as a cover save. A Dakkafex will kill just as much usually.
rigeld2 wrote: I'd drop the Tyrannofex and Venomthrope for another Dakkafex, 5 Devourers in all the 10 man Gant squads, and Toxin Sacs on the Incubator Tervigon.
With as many gants as you're planning to flood the field with, giving them poison seems useful. And I've never loved the Tyrannofex if you're using it as a cover save. A Dakkafex will kill just as much usually.
Giving a Tervigon toxin no longer gives poison to the gants... I wish it did! But, I would recommend leaving the Venomthrope in there. It's just too useful not to have!
At first look, It seems like a heavily CC oriented lost, that needs more focused CC like the Tyrant guard and less crashing heavy WS3 monsters like the Tervigon, or volume of WS3 attacks like Termagants. If I had to recommend something, it would be dropping the 3X10 large squads of Terms, incubator might add slightly to your percentage of Gants spawned it multiplyd equally to your chances to tie. Over an extended period of time it's no actual net gain. At the cost of 30 Gants, which you will already have an abundance of, it could be more focused CC like maybe Lictors or Shrikes, or even more Tyrant Guard. In fact I think the entire list could benefit largely from more of anything if you can find points elsewhere, at the moment it's a big strong war of attrition of S3 and S6 in volume of WS3 attacks, with no faster, directed, point to the broadsword. Other than Flyrants who will have a hard time making it into combat alive as obvious "shoot me" buttons. Especially since you currently need to use then to Synapse your 60 Terms + spawns, who should NEVER be in range of the Tervigon feedback. They might be suicide units, that doesn't mean we can afford to throw their points in the trash for nothing.
kryczek wrote: Has anyone put any real thought into devourer gaunt's? I'm only asking as I've not seen them mentioned yet and by god can they put out some amount of firepower. I'm running either 3x20 or 4x15 and i swear there a holy terror round these part's.
I find the 4x15 are the best when backed up by 2 warrior teams with strangler's. That's 180 S4 shot's and 2 large blast's with pinning per turn. Not bad for under 700 points surely?.
Oh yes, a lot of work went in to them around the drop of the codex because it became possible to mix and match weapons in a unit. The general accepted best use was in mixed squads with either spiny or termi actings a front line damage sponge for back row devourers. I forget what the best mix worked out to be but it was not actually a 50/50 split though that does work well.
Ductvader did a calculation of their compared efficiency to other common standard infantry, and found that 12/30 was the optimal number of Gants for max efficiency. Now, I don't know exactly what the maths was and what variables such as range or cover saves (both very relevant to Nids), and it was only built to encompass their efficiency with the relevance of other infantry level equivalent point dumps I believe. Although he promised me a month or two ago to P.M. Me the math and still hasn't come through (*shakes tendril angrily towards Ductvader*) it's as good to go off as anything, as he's likely put more thought into it than anything else.
I'd say your other options are full 30man 90 devourer shot unload coming off a hive commander outflank, or 15/30 with a meatshield per Gant (or forcing them to deal with half the squad before getting any extra returns), 20/30 for extra aggression cheaply still with a 10 W shield. At the very least I wouldn't run a less than 10 out of every 30 with Devourers. Adds 20 shots for very little or risk. 15 devil gants in a 30 man squad is giving you the firepower of 60 standard Gants total, doubling their firepower for 60 pts (half the cost if a new 30 man squad).
Now bear with me, as about to post sharing some statistics of my own regarding the cost effeciency of Devilgants in firepower, relative to other units not just Termagants.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To start with, to mark the progress and evolution of the Hive we will look at Devilgants in their last iteration
240 pts got you 20 deepstriking Devilgants in a pod. With the PE bubble that you should always endeavour to place around the Gants landing zone, puts 20 wounds on T4, 27 on T3. All saves allowed.
For 265 pts (marginal difference) 30 outflanking Devilgants put 22 wounds on T4, 30 on t3. Even narrowing that down to 240 pts gives you still more wounds, thanks to the new point reduction of both gants and devourers.
at the cost of the reliability of a drop pod of course.
I think its safe to say devil gants remain largely the same, with a knock to consistency in their role with the less of pods, and Flyrants being easier to kill thus less reliable Synapse for their side of the field. They do have 10 more wounds however, and as such lose less firepower per wound, and can tarpit/assault better in a pinch, while being a harder unit to counter-assault by your opponent at the same time.
All these differences are quite marginal however, I'd say they are at a very similar level of power.
This doesn't really help us at all but I think comparing the currently less popular option to last editions competitive version is worth the time to digest. I think its also worth noting that unlocking Tervigons troops is no longer anywhere near as important as it once was take that facts relevance to Devilgants in both editions however you choose.
Now we know Devilgants are a risk/reward aggressive unit, and it would be nice to know how they match up firepower wise at points effeciency against some other common infantry like firewarriors dire avengers, DE warriors, etc. Dakkafex too. Should always compare to dakkafex. Tag#s is a great contributor, coming through with such math in a few similar situations now. Perhaps if he sees us asking nicely he'll come through again? =}
A few pages late to the party on the GS blob question, sorry.
I played stealershock in 5th, as it was our only real 'competitive' list at the time. I spent a significant period of time in 6th trying to make it work.
With the new book and 7th edition, I. Don't honestly see a way to make blobs work. I think manufactorum stealers x2 is a very legit tactic if you play in an area with decent ruins coverage.
Stealers really relied on poison to give them reliable damage output, the loss of reroll is killer. Losing +2 from gtg killed the blob in a box trick on most boards. Being forced to take turn 2 means you will endure 2 turns of shooting, and even in 5th with 4+ cover and 4+ fnp that generally was brutal. Having turn 1 isn't as bad, but requires very careful movement if you want to be able to gtg and do the fearless blob in a box.
With manufactorum, you gain all the advantages of msu without overflowing slots. You get free HNR which is very strong, allowing units of 1-3 stealers that would normally be ground down to pop out, then join other units in assault. The powerful deploymet rules allow boxing in and heavily influence movement. Very easy to gtg and get a 3+ cover then pop up when the flyrants come in.
Tl;dr - if you wanna use lots of stealers, manufactorum is likely your best bet.
Love the hit and run - but while it's a nice bonus I think lack of frags means using the formation for pinning is more important. DLAB combined with 6 broodlords gives you a good pin chance, and the ever opposing Living artillery is a good option.
I don't miss toxin sacs that much. Due to the glass cannon nature of stealers I'd much rather have 120% bodies and attacks on the field, than sacrificing even more durability for more cannon. It's not a good change, but it affects me none for stealers.
I'm also not even sure Flyrant is the right HQ for Stealershock (I know, inconceivable right!?). They have trouble using their mobility as the biggest and least durable MC threat on the field, their Synapse is hardly relevant, and the cost difference between him or a Prime is like 15+ Stealers, very relevant.
I'm currently using a 6 Hive Guard as a screen, they are the cheapest source of T6 wounds next to Mawlocs and Tyrant Guard, provide a much larger screen, and help deal with both vehicles and units in cover, Genestealers natural counters if you will ~_~ +Venomthrope its a 3+ cover save, GtG for 2+. Tyrant Guards are a good option too, slightly cheaper T6 wounds than Hive Guard except with a 3+ save.
I think it's important to have something points efficient to throw into say a "Fist" heavy squad, or at least S8+ attacks. Looking for suggestions. The Tnid Prime is good for this, I think with Boneswords for challenging Marines. Something to throw at a TEQ assault squad would be nice. Melee acid blood Flyrant jinking his way into combat, would be nice if he could rely on his iniative. With a pinning Exocrine it's a strong consideration still. Also considering a Gargoyle blob. Any other suggestions/opinions?
foto69man wrote: Thank you all for convincing me to buy this model...amazing detail and I can't wait to field it tomorrow!
Would you be an awesome human being and take some dimensions for me?
I will take dimensions and post pics of the battle tomorrw as it's 1:30a here. But she did AMAZING...didn't lose a wound...and popped out 20 gargoyles at the end to take an objective
And a slight teaser...
Here's the pic with measurements, and the wings are 14" from cannon to wing tip and 8" from joint to fullest point. Included a Banshee, Crisis Suit, Winged Tyrant, and Tyrannofex for size comparison
SHUPPET wrote: I hope those Fleshborer Hives are magnetised :(
I magnetize everything for tyranids lol...just to be safe. Also, my T-fex got grounded for failing miserably(mostly my rolls) against some Orks a few games back...lol
I want to put TFex in my list just because of how popular Orks or and it's the most fun thing in the world to onslaught a TFex in the centre into range of a bunch of stuff on the DZ edge against an army with no deny dice and just templating havoc while keeping him wrapped in Gargs
my god those templates wreak havoc once you get eGrubs into range as well.
I magnetised my Tfex but my magnets suck. I think I have to glue him up. At least I can rest assured that Rupture Cannon won't be useful for at least 2 years, if ever.
Friend had serious family issues come up - so, being a friend I backburned the plans to paint. I can field an army consisting of things already painted - might not be ideal but would rather be there if he needed me to talk to than be too preoccupied and stressed out.
So, presented...
What will be attending - 1800 points, Lords of War allowed, charity tournament with the emphasis being on lighter lists rather than super competitive must win or Else.
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
So I've been wondering, as a new Tyranid player - Why are so many rippers appearing in lists? I thought they where beasts so they had a 12 inch move but after looking at their entry their just plain swarms! so why do people take them? are they just later game objective grabbers?
The cost is roughly 10 termagants, which are notoriously likely to flee from an objective and they have to walk to it in the first place. Rippers you can at least count on to stay put and deep strike, plus they have a low profile on the board so they are easy to hide.
I am mostly a Tau player, so hence where I have this posted...but play Tyranids alot lately. Put up all the pictures from the 22,800 total point game I was in. Was a good fun time. I took:
Highlights for me, were my Harridan killing the Tau Tigershark in one round of shooting (It was my tigershark model as well...so almost a pyhrric victory lol). The wrecker node didn't make it to any tanks as the Deathwing dropped in our backfield and they needed to die or be held up. Needless to say the deathwing stayed in that spot the entire game The zoan did what I wanted it to and sat on the objective with the rippers and babysat them, the objective, and added warp charges for the tyrants. Last piece was the Harridan making a dash for their objective, 18" being righ at the table edge, and dropping 20 gargoyles out on their objective...lol...sweet sweet victory. Take a look at the link and pictures and let me know if you have any questions at all!
Wilson wrote: So I've been wondering, as a new Tyranid player - Why are so many rippers appearing in lists? I thought they where beasts so they had a 12 inch move but after looking at their entry their just plain swarms! so why do people take them? are they just later game objective grabbers?
Pretty much that. 7E removed the restriction on Swarms scoring, so Rippers inherited Objective Secured. They're very similar to Termagants in terms of points, although it's much easier to keep Rippers out of sight / in cover in order to grab a sneaky objective. They're not great by any means, just cheap.
In other news, here are the purported stats for the new Dimachaeron:
Fast Attack - 200 Points
WS 8
BS 3
S 6
T 6
W 6
I 6
A 5
LD 10
Sv 3+
Leaper is kind of like a Jump Pack for it except it only 6" all the time, but it can jump over things which is handy.
If you DON'T use it in the Movement phase, you get +1s to your HOW and the HOW gains Strikedown.
Grasping Talons: +1S AP2 Melee with Spine Maw Strike
Spinemaw Strike: If you roll at least one 6 to hit, you get to make a Spine Maw Attack at Intiative step 1
Spine Maw Attack: Makes ONE attack that Auto Hits. May Target any Enemy Model that isn't Extremely Bulky. Only one of these Attacks may be made by this model in each phase.
The One attack it does is at +4S AP1 Instant Death and "Digestion Spine"
Digestion Spine: When a Spine Maw removes a model, the Dimachaeron gains a number of "Plasm Tokens" Equal to the number of wounds on the profile of the model removed. At the end of each of its following Turns, The Controlling player removes one token. Whilst it has a Token remaining, it gets FNP (4+)
Sickle Claws: Strength- User AP2 Melee Sickle Strike
Sickle Strike: On a roll of a 4+ to wound, an attack inflicted by a Sickle Claw has the Instant Death Rule !
This is a massive target on the same scale as a Knight, yet can only move 6" a turn? Plus it needs to reach combat and eat a suitable morsel to earn the FNP ability. Yeah, it's not gonna live long.
And FW forgot to give it Fearless like every other Tyranid MC.
Actually, so do the rules. Just too many of them. FW just should have made it a little simple, like Instant Death on a 4+ and if he rolls a 6 to hit in CC, he gets another +1A at 2x Strength. Kill at least 1 model and he gets 4+ FNP for the rest of the game.
Iechine wrote: Eh lets not turn this thread into one of those, you two take that up in PM's if you need to measure each others thorax templates.
Thanks for the good advice, the two Hive Fleets temporarily got out of synaspe range but the Hive Mind quickly fixed that! Shuppet is cool although my fleet and his have their difference we can learn from each other. I do not pay as much attention to point cost as others when it comes to making a list, if the unit can do what I want it to do I will pay a little tax to include it in my list. If I am not mistaken my friend Shuppet evaluates units with point cost being one of the most important factors in deciding if it makes his list. I would like for him to give us an example as deciding what to use can be tricky!
I know I made it seem as if I know so much about nids because I reasearched the internet but at the same time I said I dont have any battlefield experience playing nids. Which makes it hard to believe that I can contribute to the thread right? Not exactly I am still a veteran at the game and I have played against nids, after all that research I am happy to reveal my 1850 list which should hopefully give me a little bit more credit with you guys.
Man did it take a long time to make this list, I studied the codex, dakka, warseer, frontline gaming, hive mind, and youtube combine that with my experience I made a mean list.
This list is made to overload the board with tyranids big and small. It has 38 toughness 6 wounds on 8 different units. I compared that number to Jy2 Sky Fleet Pandora list (Skyblight Formation) which has 33 wounds on 7 targets, some of them are not toughness 6 but they have flying, Reecius recent list (Living Artillery Formation) has 35 wounds on 7 targets although 6 are Hive Guard. All these list are completely different but target saturation is an important tactic especially with Tyranids and I needed something to compare my list to. Not only does the list have alot of high toughness wounds but it starts the game with 60 gaunts on the table. Four squads in total, one large squad and three small squads and with the tervigons there will be a minimum of 6 gaunt squads and I have a chance to win the game simply because I keep pumping out gaunts.
I will explain the units and upgrades that are not as popular. The tyrant guard unit is probably the first thing I use that isnt seen alot or at all because of the death of the walking Hive Tyrant. I think these guys are really good and is one of the gems in the codex. The majority of our monstrous creatures besides the Hive Tyrant and the expensive Trygon all have ws 3 making their 3-4 attacks damn near useless as you only get 2 hits. Well Tyrant Guard have WS 5, this squad has rending and crushing claws giving them 3 ws 5 atks at str 6 or 7 each. On the charge you are getting 8 Ws 5 str 7 ap 2 av bane atks all for 150 points that is in my opinion the best monstrous creature like option we have and it is very point efficient. You will be hitting marines on 3's and killing on 2's and vehicles will be wrecked with ease because of av bane and, with 2 guys you can multi-charge to try to kill multiple vehicles. This unit does what our monstrous creatures are suppose to do in cc, and if one of them dies the other one is technically just as good as our other monstrous creatures with 3 atks.
All of the tervigons have the electroshock grub upgrade aswell as crushing claws making them tank hunters. The template should do 1 glance and when you charge with your 4 av bane atks you should be able to do 2 hull points worth of damage. I have so much av bane and haywire in this list that vehicles should not be a problem.
The secret to the success of this list however is the incubator node formation. Instead of having 2 large blob squad of gaunts I have 3 small squads and 1 large squad thats 60 gaunts on the table to start the game. These guys race downfield with move-through cover to try to tie up stuff. Riptides are so busy with the Monstrous creatures and tyrant guard that they forget about the gaunts that will tie them up if they are not careful. Its almost comical when your opponent decides to focus his entire army firepower on killing 240 points worth of gaunts. Especially when you have 2 tervigons who are going to try to keep them coming, the incubator tervigon's re-rolls can hurt you sometimes but it usually means she makes large squads. I outflank the other one to put pressure on one board edge, with it creating gaunt squads it can become a problem quickly as they will have gaunts coming from a different direction. If I decide to send a flyrant that way the pressure on that edge multiplys. Dont forget that the tervigon is a tank hunter with electroshock grubs and crushing claws.
The tyrannofex main job is to provide a cover save while slowly moving towards an objective and flaming non-meqs off of objectives. The carnifex adds more dakka and is a good tank hunter. There is alot more small details such as psychic powers but this is the meat of it, so what do you guys think?
Looks nice. Though I'd find 10 points to put a Thorax Hive on the Tyranofex, that second template is always (IMHO ) worth it. Personally I would not bother with Crushing Claws FTW! and would spend the points elsewhere...but that is a "style" thing. I also habitually add Adrenal to Tyranofex, because adding Fleet makes it so threatening that it attracts all the fire, and that is her main job.
jy2 wrote: Actually, so do the rules. Just too many of them. FW just should have made it a little simple, like Instant Death on a 4+ and if he rolls a 6 to hit in CC, he gets another +1A at 2x Strength. Kill at least 1 model and he gets 4+ FNP for the rest of the game.
FW also should have given him Fearless and Fleet.
It has Fleet from the adrenals. No option for flesh hooks / assault grenades though. It'll be attacking at I1 most of the time.
kryczek wrote: Has anyone put any real thought into devourer gaunt's? I'm only asking as I've not seen them mentioned yet and by god can they put out some amount of firepower. I'm running either 3x20 or 4x15 and i swear there a holy terror round these part's.
I find the 4x15 are the best when backed up by 2 warrior teams with strangler's. That's 180 S4 shot's and 2 large blast's with pinning per turn. Not bad for under 700 points surely?.
Oh yes, a lot of work went in to them around the drop of the codex because it became possible to mix and match weapons in a unit. The general accepted best use was in mixed squads with either spiny or termi actings a front line damage sponge for back row devourers. I forget what the best mix worked out to be but it was not actually a 50/50 split though that does work well.
Yeah, 50/50 is a fine "rule of thumb". Personally I run them 2/1 so my basic Brood is Spinegaunts, x20. And I add +10 Devilgaunts if I want x30 for 160 points. In "Endless" I run Spinegaunts, x10,+5 Devils these days...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wilson wrote: So I've been wondering, as a new Tyranid player - Why are so many rippers appearing in lists? I thought they where beasts so they had a 12 inch move but after looking at their entry their just plain swarms! so why do people take them? are they just later game objective grabbers?
They're dirt cheap, and you can add Deep Strike for almost nothing. And its the pure challenge of getting a use out of them. (IMHO)
The new tyranid looks amazing and his rules, although possibly confusing, look great. Seems really killy and even digests its prey. I cannot wait to buy 2 of them. lol.
Malanthrope: Elite instead of HQ. Units of 1-3 at 85pts each.
Infantry, T5 W4 3+
Tox miasma, Regen, Fleet, MTC, Shrouded, poisoned 2+, synapse, shadow,
spore cloud (same rule as Venomthropes)
prey adaption & grasping tail. Tail gives a 50/50 chance to halve opponent's attacks and drop Init to 1 in a challenge.
The Stonecrusher: 30pts more than a standard 'Fex, +1S, -1A, no other stat changes.
1-3, MC. Carapace Chitin-rams & pair of Wrecker claws as standard. Can swap claws for Claw & Flail & can take spine banks, bio-plasma & scythe/mace tail 'morphs.
Reinforced Carapace: all ranged hits are -1S when rolling to wound.
Other three standard 'Fex special rules.
Wrecker Claws: AP 1, Wrecker, Sunder.
Wrecker: re-roll all failed pen rolls vs fortifications & immobile structures & +1 on building damage chart. If destroying walls/bulkheads as terrain remove that terrain piece.
Sunder: re-rolls all failed pen rolls (all targets).
Wrecker Claw & Flail: AP1 Sweep Attack, Instant Death
Sweep Attack: instead of use the model's A stat in melee, make number of attacks equal to models in base contact
Carapace Chitin-rams: All HOW attacks are AP2. Also when targeted against a building, fortification & any ground vehicle all HOW attacks gain Armourbane and when targeted vs MCs & GCs that are not swooping gains the Monster Hunter USR.
Stonecrusher fexes look decent, and they'll be fantastic if you can include them in Wrecker Nodes.
I still haven't collected my jaw from the floor over Malanthropes. They're durable Venomthropes with synapse and reasonable melee ability. Major buff here.
Venomthropes might be taking a back seat to Malanthropes. More durable, synapse, better armor and still grant shrouded. Pretty amazing if you ask me.
Ive been looking forward to seeing the new wrecker fex's rules and they look amazing worth the 30 points increase as I am seeing more and more bastions in my battle group. This book is looking pretty amazing and we have only had 3 rule leaks so far.
Question for xxtz, was the Hierophant or Harridan improved or changed at all?? What about the hieroduels??
SHUPPET wrote: Ductvader did a calculation of their compared efficiency to other common standard infantry, and found that 12/30 was the optimal number of Gants for max efficiency.
I would be very interested in seeing that math. I can even guess what assumptions he was making to reach a conclusion like that... It doesn't really seem like an answer math could get....
240 pts got you 20 deepstriking Devilgants in a pod. With the PE bubble that you should always endeavour to place around the Gants landing zone, puts 20 wounds on T4, 27 on T3. All saves allowed.
For 265 pts (marginal difference) 30 outflanking Devilgants put 22 wounds on T4, 30 on t3. Even narrowing that down to 240 pts gives you still more wounds, thanks to the new point reduction of both gants and devourers.
at the cost of the reliability of a drop pod of course.
First, you sort of 'hand wave' the assumption of PE; which I think was more than a trivial matter. It could be done, but it also often meant limiting where the flyrant and/or gaunts went. But, I think that is a minor matter really.
I did a similar calculation when the codex came out. I used to run 15 Devilgaunts in a pod, and for the same points, I could not get 30 gaunts with 18 devourers. This gave me *more* shooting potential, and I could still lose 15 'ablative' wounds before cutting into my '6E' offensive baseline. It makes it a bit harder to target things like long fangs and other 'backfield' units... but being on the board also means they can provide a cover save for others, and potentially start shooting on turn 1.
I think its also worth noting that unlocking Tervigons troops is no longer anywhere near as important as it once was take that facts relevance to Devilgants in both editions however you choose.
Not sure if I completely agree.
If you are CAD limited, getting the Terv out of the HQ makes way for the flyrants.
In any case, it is still nice to have an OS TMC instead of 'just' scoring.
Unlocking means 30 gaunts + terv = 315pts. To not unlock means 2 gaunts + terv = 275 points.... you aren't really saving that much.
And in line with this thread... if you want to run devilgaunts, you want largish broods anyway, That way you have 'enough' devilguants and still have 'enough' ablative wound fleshgaunts.
xttz wrote: This is a massive target on the same scale as a Knight, yet can only move 6" a turn? Plus it needs to reach combat and eat a suitable morsel to earn the FNP ability. Yeah, it's not gonna live long.
And FW forgot to give it Fearless like every other Tyranid MC.
Entire page of clunky rules jacking up the cost of the model 50pts: check.
Customary T6 3+ save so it can die to most weapons: check.
So large it can't get a decent cover save: check.
Lack of assault grenades and EW so a special weapon hiding in a shrub can take it down: check.
Seems like the usual garbage.
In other news, the earths temperature increased 15 degrees after a giant dust cloud enveloped the planet. Scientists confirmed the source of this cloud was every Malanthrope in the world being taken off the shelf and getting dusted off at the same time.
So they put the Dimea in Fast attack, even though he's slower than our troops (horms, outflanking, ds rippers), slower than 2 our HQs, and two of our Heavys? Could they have not given him Deepstrike lol? Or does he have it and I missed it?
As it stands, they are what Trygons should have been, without DS. Sorry but CCMCs just aren't reliable, that is a lot of points to waste.Haruspex didn't work for a reason, same reason nobody in the history of anything takes Carnifexes as anything but a gunboat.
Here is the list that I posted earlier and I greatly appreciate everyones comments. Some of the comments made wants me to add more fire power to the list and I do agree things can be shifted around a little and I could make the units slightly more deadly as rigeld2 suggested with this post.
rigeld2 wrote: I'd drop the Tyrannofex and Venomthrope for another Dakkafex, 5 Devourers in all the 10 man Gant squads, and Toxin Sacs on the Incubator Tervigon.
With as many gants as you're planning to flood the field with, giving them poison seems useful. And I've never loved the Tyrannofex if you're using it as a cover save. A Dakkafex will kill just as much usually.
When I play test I will be sure to keep an eye on my gaunt squads to see if the extra fire power could be used. I am thinking if I do an upgrade for this list it should be adrenal glands. Fleet combine with move-through cover makes them really fast and furious charge str 4 can hurt vehicles and its cheaper. Their job in this list is not necessarily to do damage but tie up stuff (riptides and necron command barges) and have an msu like effect when facing deathstars, especially if the tervigons can keep them coming.
SHUPPET wrote: At first look, It seems like a heavily CC oriented list, that needs more focused CC like the Tyrant guard and less crashing heavy WS3 monsters like the Tervigon, or volume of WS3 attacks like Termagants.
I agree with you, tervigons and termagants are not a reliable source of damage. Their sole purpose is to survive and be difficult to kill, the gants are going to be numerous and in several different squads making killing all of them difficult. One tervigon is going to have a cover save with a venomthrope nearbye and the other one with outflank will be able to position itself in a safe spot. The termagants can do so damage but I am not relying on them for that, I know for a fact that they can tie up stuff and thats their main role not neccessarily destroying things. The tervigons pumps out more gants, provides synaspe, a psyker, and because of the upgrades is a tank-hunter aswell. If I can tie up 1-2 units with the gants, the tervigons create 3-5 new gant squads and survive because all of the fire power went towards the things that can actually do damage I will be in a good position to win.
SHUPPET wrote: If I had to recommend something, it would be dropping the 3X10 large squads of Terms, incubator might add slightly to your percentage of Gants spawned it multiplyd equally to your chances to tie.Over an extended period of time it's no actual net gain.
I know that re-rolling 1's is not a huge buff but having 3 squads instead of 1 helps me achieve my msu goal. Also I will have several units that can claim objectives with malestrom missions, the ability to claim an objective without forfeiting offense is a big advantage. Claiming objectives is just as important as doing damage in some cases.
SHUPPET wrote: At the cost of 30 Gants, which you will already have an abundance of, it could be more focused CC like maybe Lictors or Shrikes, or even more Tyrant Guard. In fact I think the entire list could benefit largely from more of anything if you can find points elsewhere, at the moment it's a big strong war of attrition of S3 and S6 in volume of WS3 attacks, with no faster, directed, point to the broadsword.
The Imperium does not fear the efficiency of the Tyranids but their numbers. During the game my opponent will eventually realize that the gants claiming objectives or tieing up the stuff is winning me the game not the flyrant, carnifex, or the tyrant guard.
SHUPPET wrote: Other than Flyrants who will have a hard time making it into combat alive as obvious "shoot me" buttons. Especially since you currently need to use then to Synapse your 60 Terms + spawns, who should NEVER be in range of the Tervigon feedback. They might be suicide units, that doesn't mean we can afford to throw their points in the trash for nothing.
The backlash on average is usually 4-5 dead gants its definitely something to be concern about but it will not dictate my movement phase. I agree the flyrants should never be considered suicide units getting the best out of them will come with experience.
pinecone77 wrote: Looks nice. Though I'd find 10 points to put a Thorax Hive on the Tyranofex, that second template is always (IMHO ) worth it. Personally I would not bother with Crushing Claws FTW! and would spend the points elsewhere...but that is a "style" thing. I also habitually add Adrenal to Tyranofex, because adding Fleet makes it so threatening that it attracts all the fire, and that is her main job.
The tyranofex did have a thorax before I changed a mawloc to a carnifex with tl-devourer and I needed 10 more points. I love crushing claws its like a cheap powerfist that makes my tervigons actually useful in cc, imagine drop pods or rhinos trying to contest. Drop the haywire on them than charge it to finish it off and the tyrant guard become beast because of them the i 1 thing is meh we usually strike last anyone because of lack of grenades.
As for the new units the new venomthrope thing is really good and if that monstrous creature has rampage we are talking about an extra d3 attacks and it has ws 8 the thing is a beast. Slow as hell but a beast none the less.
Like how Trygons used to be, you probably should take 3 or none, as strength in numbers is critical here. 1 Will die, 2 wont do enough damage, 3 secures the investment.
And the games that you get MoA these things will be very strong.
You know why Dakkafexes are good? Because they don't waste 600 pts of your army when you DON'T get MoA.
Its really a shame. If these things were given 12" move (they are FA after all) or some form of entry method, at the cost of any of those clunky ass special rules, I'd find a way to run 3, I miss the Trygon a lot (and I am actually a fan of the new model itself.
The idea of 6" assault MCs has been proven and tried as bad. Carnifexes CC at least provide some role - avoidable assault but map control bubble against tanks that we have little to no capabilities against, combined with being one of if not THE best dakka platforms in the book. What is this guys role? An avoidable assault bubble of infantry death? Sorry, but that's practically what every Tyranid unit already brings to the table. Doubling down on it is not a sensible competitive option.
Its really a shame. If these things were given 12" move (they are FA after all) or some form of entry method, at the cost of any of those clunky ass special rules, I'd find a way to run 3, I miss the Trygon a lot (and I am actually a fan of the new model itself.
.
Yep. If these things had 12" move, or even started with 1 FnP token, or something... it would really make a difference. As it is, it isn't *that* hard to kill before it hits CC.
OTOH... it *is* kind of a beast in CC. 8-10 S8 attacks and 1 S10 AP1 autohit is nothing to sneeze at, it will mess up even bikes or wraithguard etc. Which means the enemy kind of *needs* to make it a priority. If you can get it catalyst, or follow with a venom/malan for a good cover save, it may either make it, or cause them to devote a *lot* of firepower to killing it. Its not a trivial task to take out 6W T6 3+/3+cover creature. It can be done, but how many resources need to be allocated?
They cost about the same per wound as any other TMC.
The Dimachaeron seems...horribly redundant in itself.
An entire page of special rules? Really now? Did it really need a special subtype that seems to conflict with its existing subtype's own rules?
Hey you, take a dangerous terrain check for leaping. Oh, wait, Monstrous Creatures have MTC so autopass. Yay foresight!
The fact every weapon seems to have to be a new weapon with a new paragraph of monstrously redundant special rules and AP values to ramp their cost - hey, let's make them all AP2 despite them being only on this monstrous creature with smash. That'll make the points totally worth it! Let's give them all these horribly awkward special rules with seemingly more dependant terms and conditions than a ponzi scheme!
The lack of Fearless on it as well...well, that's not going to sit pretty. Not only is it in a Fast Attack slot competing against other things but it needs a constant Synapse babysitter now. And doesn't really move that fast to be honest.
I still can't understand the point of Leaper as a sub type. Why not just give it jump? Or why not just give it bounding leap ala Hormagaunts?
SHUPPET wrote: Ductvader did a calculation of their compared efficiency to other common standard infantry, and found that 12/30 was the optimal number of Gants for max efficiency.
I would be very interested in seeing that math. I can even guess what assumptions he was making to reach a conclusion like that... It doesn't really seem like an answer math could get....
240 pts got you 20 deepstriking Devilgants in a pod. With the PE bubble that you should always endeavour to place around the Gants landing zone, puts 20 wounds on T4, 27 on T3. All saves allowed.
For 265 pts (marginal difference) 30 outflanking Devilgants put 22 wounds on T4, 30 on t3. Even narrowing that down to 240 pts gives you still more wounds, thanks to the new point reduction of both gants and devourers.
at the cost of the reliability of a drop pod of course.
First, you sort of 'hand wave' the assumption of PE; which I think was more than a trivial matter. It could be done, but it also often meant limiting where the flyrant and/or gaunts went. But, I think that is a minor matter really.
I did a similar calculation when the codex came out. I used to run 15 Devilgaunts in a pod, and for the same points, I could not get 30 gaunts with 18 devourers. This gave me *more* shooting potential, and I could still lose 15 'ablative' wounds before cutting into my '6E' offensive baseline. It makes it a bit harder to target things like long fangs and other 'backfield' units... but being on the board also means they can provide a cover save for others, and potentially start shooting on turn 1.
I think its also worth noting that unlocking Tervigons troops is no longer anywhere near as important as it once was take that facts relevance to Devilgants in both editions however you choose.
Not sure if I completely agree.
If you are CAD limited, getting the Terv out of the HQ makes way for the flyrants.
In any case, it is still nice to have an OS TMC instead of 'just' scoring.
Unlocking means 30 gaunts + terv = 315pts. To not unlock means 2 gaunts + terv = 275 points.... you aren't really saving that much.
And in line with this thread... if you want to run devilgaunts, you want largish broods anyway, That way you have 'enough' devilguants and still have 'enough' ablative wound fleshgaunts.
I don't often respond to posts like this as it is an unnecessary writing style that forces a similarly structured response, which is less than ideal for me to attempt to replicate on a phone screen half the size of my palm. Also, I find that more often than not, people structure posts as such to give them free reign to ignore context, and take individual statements out of it for the sake of being right by making someone else wrong. Just in my experience.
However, I'm just going to respond to your quotes in numerical order, and you can match it up to the relevant post.
Quote #1 - I too would like to see the math too as I strongly stated, this wasn't intended to be anything other than anecdotal, merely sharing the eventual conclusions of a user who did put more time and thought into than many others did. I personally won't FULLY trust the process until I see it myself, a message I'm still waiting on, but as I said, it's as good a starting point as any, and I have picked it up as my standard. Here's what he shared with me in a personal message:
Spoiler:
ductvader wrote:I'll get you some harder numbers when I get the time to actually sit down and hammer it out.
But,
I put 30 termagants in a vacuum with 12 fire warriors, 16 Guardians, and a guard vet squad.
This is all theorycrafting because no numbers or situations are perfect.
I placed the two unis "24" apart. (In theory...I was not just just rolling this out) and assumed a 5+ cover save on alternating turns which also assumes moving 3.5 inches through terrain.)
Then I'd take the stats on damage each round as they come at each other, alternating turns on who goes first and such.
(never assuming anyone goes to ground because its a vacuum...also assuming no assault in order to limit variables)
Then I looked into the points spent/damage caused/damage taken
I tried as best as I could to limit random variables...because as soon as you start trying extrapolate like this, the internet trolls start hating.
Looks to me as though his math was fairly in depth - and oh his process even predicted your response any further issues here, take them up with duct as I can't answer them, I was merely sharing his findings when the topic was brought up. You might not have found them relevant but I'm sure it's possible someone else has, as I certainly did.
Quote #2 - ok well if you thought dropping 240 pts worth of one of the most Synapse dependant units in the codex outside of Flyrant range was ever going to be the best way to play it, than I don't know what to say to you. As always - more power to you friend. I personally always endeavoured to place my Flyrant in range of them, and not just for Synapse, as I showed in my previous post that PE bubble gave 20 of them the firepower of about 29. Very relevant when it's a unit that you expect to get the most out of the turn it arrives, less the second and none the the third. You only needed that Flyrant there a single turn to get often UP TO double the damage out of them (about 150% shooting buff for the first turn + Synapse for next turn will just about double your output if even half the squad survives). The other fast Synapse option, I never found it a good idea to rely on Zopes for their Synapse, who needed to be much more careful with their positioning, plus had a scatter of their own, unlike Swooping a Flyrant up, but I guess it was an option.
So sure, PE wasn't guaranteed if their side of the board was too risky, but this is an unlikely situations, especially compared to the current situation of landing on the suboptimal side of the board 33% of the time, which might leave you out of range of the ideal target, or at worst out of range of everything you can even hurt. This is far more crippling than a loss of PE, and although unlikely, no more so than not having PE was in 5E. For either of these to happen would take an unfortunately turn of uncommon events.
As for the comments on squeezing a number into a squad with wounds, this clearly was not what I was comparing. I agreed its added utility for Termagants in general, and discussed its use in different stages of my post. The comparison was between the effectiveness of a max sized Devildrop in both editions, not the slotting in.of Dakkagants to a set fraction of a gant squad, as its obviously not possible :S
Quote #3 not interested in having this argument. The statement was that unlocking Tervigons as troops is less important. This is pretty undeniable, as Tervigons suck ads now, but even if you feel they are still good, they definitely got WORSE, thus the need for scoring Tervigons is much LESS now. As I also said, you can take the relevance of this fact however you like as there will be differing opinions to how relevant that was and has been on the choice to take Devilgants, I specifically added this to avoid being trolled into the argument that diehard Tervigon supporters seem to love wasting everybody's time with, but I did feel the statement itself was worth remembering.
The Dimachaeron seems...horribly redundant in itself.
An entire page of special rules? Really now? Did it really need a special subtype that seems to conflict with its existing subtype's own rules?
Hey you, take a dangerous terrain check for leaping. Oh, wait, Monstrous Creatures have MTC so autopass. Yay foresight!
The fact every weapon seems to have to be a new weapon with a new paragraph of monstrously redundant special rules and AP values to ramp their cost - hey, let's make them all AP2 despite them being only on this monstrous creature with smash. That'll make the points totally worth it! Let's give them all these horribly awkward special rules with seemingly more dependant terms and conditions than a ponzi scheme!
The lack of Fearless on it as well...well, that's not going to sit pretty. Not only is it in a Fast Attack slot competing against other things but it needs a constant Synapse babysitter now. And doesn't really move that fast to be honest.
I still can't understand the point of Leaper as a sub type. Why not just give it jump? Or why not just give it bounding leap ala Hormagaunts?
They're really trying too hard with this thing.
I've never agreed with you more. It's not only poorly designed, but also poorly written. You just nailed a lot of the poor writing, even though the gameplay design is equally poor.
I can't place my finger exactly on why, but the news of the Dimae has left me feeling... Insulted. It had so much potential and then they went and made a conscious decision with the leaper rule to find a way to make it Jump and MOVE NO MORE THAN 6". They are deliberately trying to force this Haruspex-esque style of play down our throats. They had the potential to do something right and at the same time fix a mistake or two - instead they deliberately try to pigeonhole this into the same, boringass style of MC that gets looked over, e.g walking Tyrant, Haruspex, CC Carni, etc. Like "hey guys now you're DEFINITELY going to want to do this gak, we gave it incredible WS, 8x S8 attacks, and some unique CC special rules!". No. The concept is flawed. 6" move speed, no transport, no entry method. We even don't care if it can kill Abaddon 6 times over before combat starts. You think anyone would take Abaddon on foot?
Yeah. Insulted and annoyed. It's a shame cause the model, but - BOYCOTTING. Put some real effort into design instead of trying to sell models off what I'm sure they envision are cool special rules.
Not being fearless for the new FWMC (Dima-something) is actually interesting because it's able to GTG for a 2+ cover with a Venomthrope (or now, more likely, a malanthrope) backing it up. You can then use dominion to put it back in synapse and just keep rocking up the board. I think having 2-3 malanthropes can make footslogging lists much more viable. Sure, ignores cover will mean that you NEED Master of Ambush, but most armies really aren't packing that much, sans Tau. And getting through 4 T5 wounds (presumably with 2+ cover) is not at all easy to do. Most durable 85 point unit I've ever seen, that's for sure.
All that being said, it is pretty stupid that they couldn't just give the FWMC a 12" move or DS. Highly doubt that I'll pick it up, although that many s9 attacks on the charge is pretty nice.
Something I would like to try and revisit is making a more concerted attempt at making Mawlocs work. I think we can all agree that there's no point in combining them with lictors (except maybe with infiltrate and some decent LOS-blocking terrain) but I've found that the Mawloc can be incredibly useful when it hits. Often it will go back into reserves, letting it strike time and time again. Being able to pop up anywhere is so crucial in maelstrom, and with the advent of many armies going MSU to contest a variety of objectives, I do believe that the Mawloc is licking it's chops (or whatever those appendages are). I do think that 3 might be overkill, but who knows? They're pretty cheap. Has anyone tried this? I still need to pick up a third mawloc currently
Mawlocs are amazing. Smash nerf hurt them, as they were so cheap and mobile a couple really threatened Vehics. AG makes them ace skimmers and transports however. They are still the cheapest source of MC wounds in the dex while putting alot of hurt on... Everything.
There is not no point to running Lictors with them. Mawlocs are all assault once they hit the board, Lictors are able to support them quite well being one of the only things that will really be there in time, in combats against things Mawlocs get bogged down against. Mawlocs do have hit and run however, and It's possible that Shrikes do this better, but Lictors and Mawlocs do synergise well, and the perfect accuracy blast call down into combat is just a bonus. It's mainly if you are already running DLAB - mamakes Mawlocs a good pick.
Running Mawlocs I like at least two Crones - these are your best chance to pop a Vehicle with key infantry inside, BEFORE a Mawloc comes down, and also have AP4 cover ignoring for things hiding from Mawloc blast in the ruin.
Mawlocs do a lot - before 7th I think they were the best unit in the dex. Now not as good but still very good. I don't think coming piecemeal is a good idea try use units that threaten at the same time like Flyrants and outflanking Devilgant drops. Be sure to play Flyrants supercareful early turns, using range and jink to stay alive.
The problem is MCs can no longer GTG so that little trick isn't going to work unfortunately.
I am with a majority, the 6" movement really makes this guy not worth it. You can have all the special rules in the world regarding ID but ultimately you are hoofing it at 6" with T6 and 6W and a 3+, that's not that hard to take down.
Someone could make a case for "fun" games but for "fun" games i already have 75% of the Tyranid codex that i currently don't use.
Shuppet, we smoked Tau on our game Saturday with the list posted.
Warriors, Shrikes, venomthrope and every last termagant were wiped out; both Crones, both Biovores and three out of four Flyrants survived. He had a riptide, several crisis suits, huge number of markelights - everything in the main combat zone was pulverized and tyranids were never in danger of losing the relic.
Really miss Skyblight's OS , reincarnating Gargoyles. This is a strong list but troops are probably the main weakness. Might just try running with even more termagants next time.
List recap:
4 x Flyrant 2 TLD, ES grubs
2 x Hive Crone
Shrike brood, 2 x RC, 1 x BS .
2 x 10 termagants
10 termagants
(8 devourers)
3 Tyranid Warriors
2 x RC, 1 x BS
Shuppet, I have no idea why you have chosen to take such an adversarial tone in your response. I have agreed with almost everything you have said, and any disagreements are a matter of degree, not of substance.
Yet you decided to assume I was responding in an "unnecessary" style, and several times alluded to me being a troll. Your response paints you as being overly sensitive and unnecessarily rude.
Ductvader: I give him props for an intriguing methodology and a clever way of approaching the issue. While I would still be interested in seeing the math (And yes I *know* you would to, I was *agreeing* with you, not calling you out.) from what he wrote to you, I think there are so many assumptions required, and so many variables necessairly ignored... the results can't be extrapolated very well.
Flyrant-gaunts: Again, I *agreed* that the devilgaunts were often in PE range, but it was not just a trivial matter.
1) synapse range covers more than 4x the area as PE range.
2) Because the flyrant was already on the board, and had a limited flight path, it meant that getting that PE bonus could easily mean putting either the flyrant or the devilgaunts in a location that was not the best possible location.
3) There were many times where it was better to drop the gaunts in synapse but out of PE because of what needed to be shot, and where the flyrants could get to.
Yes, normally I would get the gaunts in PE range, but that was not always a trivial issue.
As for the comments on squeezing a number into a squad with wounds, this clearly was not what I was comparing. I agreed its added utility for Termagants in general, and discussed its use in different stages of my post. The comparison was between the effectiveness of a max sized Devildrop in both editions, not the slotting in.of Dakkagants to a set fraction of a gant squad, as its obviously not possible :S
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say. My guess is you are trying to create an argument in a situation where I am agreeing with you...
Tervigon troops: No wonder you are so adversarial... you spend so much effort jumping to conclusions and making wild assumptions.
I never said tervs were good; I have not even run them since the codex dropped. (I much prefer MSU warriors). But *if* someone is taking a terv, then unlocking it as a troop isn't "no longer anywhere near as important ". It may be a bit less important because of the scoring changes, but not taking up an HQ slot and getting OS are still valuable things.
I *never* said tervs were good, the fact that you arbitrarily assumed I was a "diehard tervigon supporter" trying to troll you just illustrates how defensive you are... Sheesh man, who spit in your Wheaties today?
Also, I find that more often than not, people structure posts as such to give them free reign to ignore context, and take individual statements out of it for the sake of being right by making someone else wrong. Just in my experience.
Really? Look, *if* I do those things, then say so... stop with the passive aggressive insinuations of my intentions. The point is I *didn't* take anything you said out of context... but you still decided you wanted to besmirch my post through some 'guilt by association'
Classy.
I find that quoting allows a conversation to stay focused, and makes it *more difficult* to ignore content and context. Yes there is a danger that someone may only quote and respond to a minor snippet, but they respond that way without quoting also...
edit: I did my best to not quote you, since you said it was difficult to respond on your phone that way. You could have simply *asked* instead of resorting to Ad Hominem attacks on *why* I post that way,
Hey you, take a dangerous terrain check for leaping. Oh, wait, Monstrous Creatures have MTC so autopass. Yay foresight!
The fact every weapon seems to have to be a new weapon with a new paragraph of monstrously redundant special rules and AP values to ramp their cost - hey, let's make them all AP2 despite them being only on this monstrous creature with smash. That'll make the points totally worth it! Let's give them all these horribly awkward special rules with seemingly more dependant terms and conditions than a ponzi scheme!
The lack of Fearless on it as well...well, that's not going to sit pretty. Not only is it in a Fast Attack slot competing against other things but it needs a constant Synapse babysitter now. And doesn't really move that fast to be honest.
They have created a number of new Universal Rules and weapon that can now be applied to multiple future units. *That* is why leaping causes DT checks, and the weapons are AP2, etc. So yes, that *is* forsight, they are looking towards the future when they might want to give basic infantry leaping.
Jump packs also cause DT tests, and they are also put on MCs.... same logic.
Why so concerned about fearless? They are Ld10, and have the equivalent of 10 powerfist attacks at WS8 and I6. If they ever do lose combat, they are probably already dead.
This thing is going to be very solid in CC... the question is if we can get it there before it dies... Malanthrope may help there... maybe not enough...
coredump wrote: Why so concerned about fearless? They are Ld10, and have the equivalent of 10 powerfist attacks at WS8 and I6. If they ever do lose combat, they are probably already dead.
Pinning. Getting pinned one round means this guy is useless. Morale is used for far more than failing combat.
coredump wrote: Why so concerned about fearless? They are Ld10, and have the equivalent of 10 powerfist attacks at WS8 and I6. If they ever do lose combat, they are probably already dead.
Pinning. Getting pinned one round means this guy is useless. Morale is used for far more than failing combat.
But MC's can't be pinned...
Aside from random psychic kookiness that could force it to fall back, the Dimachaeron really only needs to worry about being swept. Lack of assault grenades is a bigger concern. And they'll probably errata Fearless anyway.
Aside from random psychic kookiness that could force it to fall back, the Dimachaeron really only needs to worry about being swept. Lack of assault grenades is a bigger concern. And they'll probably errata Fearless anyway.
Getting charged by a Riptide/Wraithknight (or other things) causes a Fear test.. Unlikely to fail, but possible. I agree, though - lack of grenades is worse than the lack of Fearless.
I am going to put some serious thought into this new Hive Mind creation called the Dimachaeron and share my discoveries with everyone within synaspe range. As always Hive Fleet Newt is trying to find the best use out of every unit, infact I think I will do this with some other units aswell if other Fleets find my insight useful.
Dimachaeron moves 6" a turn <--- this is where I stopped reading...
It's tough enough, I could possibly get it into combat turn 2 with a 12" move but 6" move? how am I going to pull that off? am I missing something? is there something else yet to be seen?
bodazoka wrote: Dimachaeron moves 6" a turn <--- this is where I stopped reading...
It's tough enough, I could possibly get it into combat turn 2 with a 12" move but 6" move? how am I going to pull that off? am I missing something? is there something else yet to be seen?
I'm really hoping that the Leaper trait means it moves an extra 6" a turn for a total of 12" a turn.
Else the thing is bloody useless for the points and slot it is in. Right now it competes with Gargoyles, Shrikes, Raveners, Crones and Harpies for the slot.
For the role it competes with Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants and heaven forbid the Haruspex.
Seriously, it has a nice number of attacks and all...but at 200 points? Ouch. Especially only moving 6" a turn with the standard TMC issues (T6, 3+ save)
SHUPPET wrote: Hmm is it possible that is the intended interpretation of it? 6" extra move if you use Leaper in movement phase?
Might explain why they are in the FA slot.
Otherwise it seems pretty gak.
Actually this makes perfect sense. It would explain why it's in the FA slot, and why that sentence exists. No model needs to "leap" to move 6", so it seems rather logical that it would gain an extra 6" of movement. Does seem somewhat unclear, however if that is the case, I will certainly pick one up. Grab 3 of those and 3 Mawlocs. For 1020 points you have 36 MC wounds. Litter a couple malanthropes and suddenly the opponent won't be able to cut through all of those bad boys. I would love to see the Dimachaeron go to work on pretty much any unit.
I'd guess the best possible Warlord trait is the "brain eater" one. 
You might get better use of your points if you break down the upgrades though...Reaper is ,what 45? So Bonesword/Lashwhip, Adrenal runs 35, toss in a Thorax Hive, and I don't think you'll miss Shred all that much... 
Make her Toxic, and you get back into re-roll city, and save 5 points...? So, you can trim, and add to get a "custom fit" I find that Vector Strike, a Template, and a "Insta-Killy" weapon always add a lot to my play. 
Gotta protect those beatsticks...
Now Jamie does have experience playing against Skyblight back in 6th (when they were arguably much, much better than they are now). I believe that he actually won that game, though it was a closely fought one (correct me if I am wrong, Jamie). As for me, my bugs have always had trouble against Tau back in 6th. Let's just say they were one of 2 armies that I had a losing record against. So here we have the young gun with the ultimate bug-killing army but little competitive experience against the seasoned veteran with lots of tricks up his sleeves. Can Commander_Farsight finally claim the revenge that he has long sought after?
