Skerr wrote: Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.
Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.
I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.
But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.
Isn't Sin of Damnation a stranded space hulk with no pressure/oxygen? That's pretty good background reasoning right there.
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
A metric ton of S6 Twinlinked shots that can hit different targets, Zoanthrope batteries, synapse, and cover generating/scoring Termagants. Should be interesting in a competitive setting. It does give up a TON of Kill points though, but the same token means they cant mass wounds on units.
Downsides are its slow and has no alpha to speak of.
Nothing wrong with your models, your execution tho... Put them in units of 2. This not only let's you do it in a single detachment, it also means every single roll of Onslaught (which is the point of Zoanthropes in this list) allows you to put a Carnifex in range of their DZ probably shooting something turn 1, and if you get Master of Ambush (you should be trying for it every game) you can infiltrate all 6 carnifexes if you go first, giving you a turn 1 alpha of 96 twin-linked S6 shots (!!!) which is pretty insane, on top of leaving you with 6 carnis only 12" away from their army which isn't something anybody wants. If you go second with Master of Ambush I would outflank them and jink the Flyrants just to be sure. Units of 2 isn't all bad for wounds, as it also allows you to eat up to three wounds and switch a different Fex to the front in your turn to abuse wound allocation, plus there isn't going to be a huge amount of units in any game that can by themselves reliably put more than 4 wounds a turn on a Fex unit, and the ones that can are the ones you focus first.
I think your list is a pretty good skeleton on how to go, you can tweak from there. If I had to recommend something else it would be dropping a Carnifex squad for a Mawloc just to cover you on things that can and likely will be giving you a hassle, giving you a way to deal with anything hiding in non-ruin cover, but also a way to deal with any +2 armor that will otherwise eat a LOT of S6 shots. Still does nothing to Centurions in a Ruin, so Exocrine is worth considering as well, especially since he works well with Master of Ambush giving you a BS4 S7 AP2 blast or shooting, the turn he hits the field, pointed at practically anything you want on the map. If you take one or both of these, the other thing I'd consider is Biovores for strong cheap anti infantry - one squad of these is the best way to make up for being down 24 dakkadice with the Fexes you took out, almost everything has something +4 (which already turns those 24 dice to 12) that is going to be extremely points effecient to point these things at - and with their range they can probably do it turn 1, contributing to your alpha strike.
To answer your question though, I think you will fair quite well no matter what you do. Carnifexes are extremely cost effective. Running at least 4 I think is the way to go with the Smash nerf, as well as Crones and Mawlocs being nerfed. No harm in just saturating the field with them (although situations may call for something a bit more specialised)
Thats about 1350 (1351?) (18WC +D6) don't know what to do with it...me? I think I'd Double out 3 of the Broods for durability, and multishot Warp Blast/Lances....that should hit 1500 more or less
I can't believe this got glossed over! Looks like a pretty solid template to me; and plenty of points left over to customize to your own tastes!
Skerr wrote: Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.
Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.
I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.
But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.
I believe some of the 4th edition stuff also had indicators that smaller organisms like Hormagaunts could survive Exterminatus via burrowing and emerge afterwards.
Considering Exterminatus utterly destroys a planet leaving it a barren lifeless rock....for something to emerge and survive is an indicator that luxuries like oxygen aren't needed.
Pretty sure Tyranids for the most part don't require oxygen, nor do they need to eat or drink. I seem to recall some of the background pointing that out - the smaller gaunt organisms have very limited lifespans as they lack functioning digestive systems so literally starve themselves to death and burn their energy reserves out during the course of an attack.
Thats about 1350 (1351?) (18WC +D6) don't know what to do with it...me? I think I'd Double out 3 of the Broods for durability, and multishot Warp Blast/Lances....that should hit 1500 more or less
I can't believe this got glossed over! Looks like a pretty solid template to me; and plenty of points left over to customize to your own tastes!
Cool! Glad you liked it. Due to my health, I can't get any games in, so if you try it out, please post some outcomes.
Skerr wrote: Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.
Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.
I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.
But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.
I believe some of the 4th edition stuff also had indicators that smaller organisms like Hormagaunts could survive Exterminatus via burrowing and emerge afterwards.
Considering Exterminatus utterly destroys a planet leaving it a barren lifeless rock....for something to emerge and survive is an indicator that luxuries like oxygen aren't needed.
Pretty sure Tyranids for the most part don't require oxygen, nor do they need to eat or drink. I seem to recall some of the background pointing that out - the smaller gaunt organisms have very limited lifespans as they lack functioning digestive systems so literally starve themselves to death and burn their energy reserves out during the course of an attack.
Yeah, I also remember have read something like that, although the fact that Gaunts have been used in more prolonged battles without the option of reinforcementa like in Ghorala or in Shadowbrink makes me believe that Gaunts can develop organs if needed.
As for the vacuum subject, Tyranids flying creatures like Gargoyles, Hive Crones, Harpies and Harridans are completely adapted to spaceflight.
Skerr wrote: Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.
Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.
I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.
But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.
I believe some of the 4th edition stuff also had indicators that smaller organisms like Hormagaunts could survive Exterminatus via burrowing and emerge afterwards.
Considering Exterminatus utterly destroys a planet leaving it a barren lifeless rock....for something to emerge and survive is an indicator that luxuries like oxygen aren't needed.
Pretty sure Tyranids for the most part don't require oxygen, nor do they need to eat or drink. I seem to recall some of the background pointing that out - the smaller gaunt organisms have very limited lifespans as they lack functioning digestive systems so literally starve themselves to death and burn their energy reserves out during the course of an attack.
Sounds like something else the design team borrowed from nature- some moths and other insects are born(changed in the case of moths) with no mouths. Their only purpose is to breed and die.
Skerr wrote: Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.
Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.
I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.
But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.
I believe some of the 4th edition stuff also had indicators that smaller organisms like Hormagaunts could survive Exterminatus via burrowing and emerge afterwards.
Considering Exterminatus utterly destroys a planet leaving it a barren lifeless rock....for something to emerge and survive is an indicator that luxuries like oxygen aren't needed.
Pretty sure Tyranids for the most part don't require oxygen, nor do they need to eat or drink. I seem to recall some of the background pointing that out - the smaller gaunt organisms have very limited lifespans as they lack functioning digestive systems so literally starve themselves to death and burn their energy reserves out during the course of an attack.
Sounds like something else the design team borrowed from nature- some moths and other insects are born(changed in the case of moths) with no mouths. Their only purpose is to breed and die.
It makes sense, why waste additional resources on something that is meant to be cheaper that sunlight?
Ok, now that stronghold assault is basically a requirement, how does everyone feel about Ammunition Dumps and Hive Guard? It makes them a bit more accurate, and we really need the anti tank potential, plus ignores cover is very nice.
Basically, with my normal Bastion+Venomthrope, I would add a defense line, Ammo dump and 3 Hive Guard. Behind a defense line with a Venom they have a 2++, and can shoot any nearby vehicles with rerolling 1s. Thoughts?
jifel wrote: Ok, now that stronghold assault is basically a requirement, how does everyone feel about Ammunition Dumps and Hive Guard? It makes them a bit more accurate, and we really need the anti tank potential, plus ignores cover is very nice.
Basically, with my normal Bastion+Venomthrope, I would add a defense line, Ammo dump and 3 Hive Guard. Behind a defense line with a Venom they have a 2++, and can shoot any nearby vehicles with rerolling 1s. Thoughts?
Fortifications now have to be placed fully in your deployment zone. Also they aren't as tough as they used to be. Hive Guard are over costed and take up an elite spot that could be better spent on a Venom or Zoey. Consider an Exocrine matched up with an Ammo dump instead. It greatly improves his shooting, and he still has the 24" range, and he can explode vehicles unlike the hive guard. It wouldn't work in my meta where nobody ever moves toward Tyranids, so a Tyranid gunline is unworkable, but if your meta is different, it might work.
Also, the skyshield works very well with Venoms and Exocrines, and has the bonus of giving FMC's a 2+ cover on turn 1.
jifel wrote: Ok, now that stronghold assault is basically a requirement, how does everyone feel about Ammunition Dumps and Hive Guard? It makes them a bit more accurate, and we really need the anti tank potential, plus ignores cover is very nice.
Basically, with my normal Bastion+Venomthrope, I would add a defense line, Ammo dump and 3 Hive Guard. Behind a defense line with a Venom they have a 2++, and can shoot any nearby vehicles with rerolling 1s. Thoughts?
Fortifications now have to be placed fully in your deployment zone. Also they aren't as tough as they used to be. Hive Guard are over costed and take up an elite spot that could be better spent on a Venom or Zoey. Consider an Exocrine matched up with an Ammo dump instead. It greatly improves his shooting, and he still has the 24" range, and he can explode vehicles unlike the hive guard. It wouldn't work in my meta where nobody ever moves toward Tyranids, so a Tyranid gunline is unworkable, but if your meta is different, it might work.
Also, the skyshield works very well with Venoms and Exocrines, and has the bonus of giving FMC's a 2+ cover on turn 1.
I painted a spore chimney as a counts-as void shield generator. That thing has been 100% worth it's points in both games I've used it so far. It's a pretty good sized protective bubble that keeps some (sometimes all) heavy weapons off my big bugs turn 1, protects my base of warriors, termagants, and Biovores, and also counts as a scoring unit in my DZ since it is a claimed building. I love it.
I'm trying to wrap my head around Zoans rules in 7ed. They are level two psykers and alweays know warp blast/lance. They have brotherhood so regardless of squad size I alewaysbget onlyb two WC from the squad correct? Now does warpblast/lance replace their free primaris power? Do I get warpbalst/lance plus another power plus dominion? Idf so it would seem that splitting them up into single units makes the most sense, no?
I'm trying to wrap my head around Zoans rules in 7ed. They are level two psykers and alweays know warp blast/lance. They have brotherhood so regardless of squad size I alewaysbget onlyb two WC from the squad correct? Now does warpblast/lance replace their free primaris power? Do I get warpbalst/lance plus another power plus dominion? Idf so it would seem that splitting them up into single units makes the most sense, no?
yes, no, yes and possibly.
Each unit of Zoans ( no matter the size) gives you 2 WC. They start with warpblast and can make 1 additional roll for a power. Then they get dominion for free since all their powers came from the same tree. This means they will have 3 powers total.
I prefer to run them in units of 1. Units of 2 makes them more survivable though.
So putting in units of two or three really affects your WC output, no? At least I read it that way.
So what I said was correct. They get three powers ... dominion is always granted and warpblast/lance must be taken. So they roll once for an extra power. .
So putting in units of two or three really affects your WC output, no? At least I read it that way.
So what I said was correct. They get three powers ... dominion is always granted and warpblast/lance must be taken. So they roll once for an extra power. .
Yes, multiple Zoans in a squad is less efficient and yes you get dominion, blast and a roll.
You didn't miss anything. That is exactly how they work.
The only reason to take multiple zoans in a single unit IMO is if your elites slots are filled up and you want them to be more survivable. Even then I'd only do it because of a lack of models... throw some more gaunts or rippers at them!
I'm trying to wrap my head around Zoans rules in 7ed. They are level two psykers and alweays know warp blast/lance. They have brotherhood so regardless of squad size I alewaysbget onlyb two WC from the squad correct? Now does warpblast/lance replace their free primaris power? Do I get warpbalst/lance plus another power plus dominion? Idf so it would seem that splitting them up into single units makes the most sense, no?
The way I read it, they are ML 2, they always have Warp Blast/Lance, and roll for one more. Because they only have one disapline, they take Primarchus for "free" it is a real buff. Having Dominion makes Zoeys always have a useful power.
While "solo" Zoeys max out benefits, Putting in two makes the Brood much more durable....I currently don't have an opinion on what is "best"
And, Yeah it's 2 WC per Brotherhood, as I understand it.
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
A metric ton of S6 Twinlinked shots that can hit different targets, Zoanthrope batteries, synapse, and cover generating/scoring Termagants. Should be interesting in a competitive setting. It does give up a TON of Kill points though, but the same token means they cant mass wounds on units.
Downsides are its slow and has no alpha to speak of.
Nothing wrong with your models, your execution tho... Put them in units of 2. This not only let's you do it in a single detachment, it also means every single roll of Onslaught (which is the point of Zoanthropes in this list) allows you to put a Carnifex in range of their DZ probably shooting something turn 1, and if you get Master of Ambush (you should be trying for it every game) you can infiltrate all 6 carnifexes if you go first, giving you a turn 1 alpha of 96 twin-linked S6 shots (!!!) which is pretty insane, on top of leaving you with 6 carnis only 12" away from their army which isn't something anybody wants. If you go second with Master of Ambush I would outflank them and jink the Flyrants just to be sure. Units of 2 isn't all bad for wounds, as it also allows you to eat up to three wounds and switch a different Fex to the front in your turn to abuse wound allocation, plus there isn't going to be a huge amount of units in any game that can by themselves reliably put more than 4 wounds a turn on a Fex unit, and the ones that can are the ones you focus first.
I think your list is a pretty good skeleton on how to go, you can tweak from there. If I had to recommend something else it would be dropping a Carnifex squad for a Mawloc just to cover you on things that can and likely will be giving you a hassle, giving you a way to deal with anything hiding in non-ruin cover, but also a way to deal with any +2 armor that will otherwise eat a LOT of S6 shots. Still does nothing to Centurions in a Ruin, so Exocrine is worth considering as well, especially since he works well with Master of Ambush giving you a BS4 S7 AP2 blast or shooting, the turn he hits the field, pointed at practically anything you want on the map. If you take one or both of these, the other thing I'd consider is Biovores for strong cheap anti infantry - one squad of these is the best way to make up for being down 24 dakkadice with the Fexes you took out, almost everything has something +4 (which already turns those 24 dice to 12) that is going to be extremely points effecient to point these things at - and with their range they can probably do it turn 1, contributing to your alpha strike.
To answer your question though, I think you will fair quite well no matter what you do. Carnifexes are extremely cost effective. Running at least 4 I think is the way to go with the Smash nerf, as well as Crones and Mawlocs being nerfed. No harm in just saturating the field with them (although situations may call for something a bit more specialised)
I need to run this list unpaired and paired, to see if I like the flexibility of shooting vs the possible psychic boost. Centurions in a ruin are another great reason to not pair them, as Ive had Carnifexes dropped with wounds to spare by them quite a few times. Dropping 1 fex does open up a lot of army boosts. But 6 is sexier.
If I were to run a squad of 3 Zoanthropes, and managed to get psychic shriek, would it be one psychic test per normal, but result in three shrieks? If so... that could be pretty solid.
Eldercaveman wrote: Something that came up in my game last night, we have to take a grounding check if a Flyrant takes a wound from Perils!
I've been grounded this way twice. Very Annoying.
Also have to take a separate grounding test for psychic shooting, normal shooting, and Vector Strikes, assuming they cause an unsaved wound (FNP doesn't count).
I had a fun campaign game tonight, against the Blood Angels player that favors Land Raiders. Our campaign put several dramatic restrictions on our lists:
-The only HQ allowed was The Swarmlord for me, and Mephiston for him.
-Only 1 Combined arms detachment, no formations.
-1500 points
That led to an interesting clash of concepts. I ran MSU Tyranids, and my opponent did a heavy armor list. We were using the Maelstrom of War missions, and so my MSU approach won out.
10 man Tac squad (Flamer, Combi-flamer, combat Squaded)
in a Land Raider Crusader (multi-metla)
5 man Tac squad (Flamer)
in a Razorback (Assault Cannon)
Stormraven (multi-melta)
Battle Highlights:
Spoiler:
I went first. On turn 1 my Crone fired 2 missiles at a Dreadnaught. 1 hit. 6 to Pen. 6 on pen table. Imobilized!
His turn 1, the same dreadnaught periled and lost a 2nd HP.
On my turn 2 having failed to do anything with a crone vector strike I got side armor on that dreadnaught with 1 Shrike. 1 hit, 6 to glance. Dead!
I failed to cast catalyst on 3 dice, 3 turns in a row.
I failed or was denied every psychic power on turn 2, and all but 1 on turn 3 (Warp lance which missed).
Stupid Corbolo can eat a lot of TL-Devourer shots. 3+ and FNP (2+)
Rippers got ID'd by an assault cannon the turn they arrived. They are not good. I would rather have Gaunts.
I gave furious charge to a Carnifex. 3 Hammer of Wrath + 4 attacks = no damage to Land Raider.
I shot a Carnifex at the Razor back. 12 shots 10 hits no glances or pens. Failed a 5" charged.
I charged Mephiston and Corbolo with a Carnifex and the Swarmlord. Mephiston did 3 wounds to the carnifex, and then the Swarmlord (with preferred enemy) rolled 5 2's and 1 4 to hit, and 1 6 to wound, and ID'd Mephiston. Then the Carnifex took care of Corbolo. Netted me 4 points and an insurmountable lead.
The psychic Shriek is bad for Gaunts and Gargoyles.
I gave Swarmlord and his 2 Guard furious charge and charged a Dread with 2 HP left. They did one Pen and destroyed its stormbolter. Swarmy Tanked the return fire, and only failed 1 invul. Next turn failed to take final HP, and the dread put ID on itself, so both guard had to die for swarmy. Next turn, swarmy takes it down with a smash.
My Crone failed to damage anything on its 3 vector strikes of the game. But did Pen the Razorback, and blow off its assault cannon.
I denied Iron Arm every single turn.
Takaways:
1) MSU works, especially when using Tac Cards.
2) Rippers still suck. Take gaunts instead.
3) Objective secured Land Raiders are stupid.
4) Joining ICs to Mephiston is powerful.
5) The Swarmlord, despite being stupidly overcosted can still get it done once in a while.
6) Shrikes! Shrikes! Shrikes!. They scored a lot of objectives for me. Way more mobile than warriors. Only reason to ever take warriors again is FOC is full of Fast, or they are needed for a formation.
Final thoughts:
By the rules of the campaign, I can't use Zoenthropes in my next battle. I'm thinking I will try for Ductvader's Turn 2 Tsunami list provided I don't get matched up with a Land Raider spammer again.
My god the Swarmlord sucks. Yeah he can "get it done once it a while", but at a ridiculous cost, and even then only just.
Other points I agree with. Rippers are overrated, LR's are going to be stupid v us every game, Mephiston units can get silly, and Shrikes are way better than Warriors. However, Warriors are only useful because they fill out a mandatory troop slot and give Synapse to the other one, or because they unlock Living Artillery formation.
Looks like you rolled some seriously bad luck though.
I disagree, the appeal of rippers is that they don't need synapse and can deep strike, making them good for Flying lists. In your list were all moved together, gaunts are better.
3 Tyrant/Hive Guard (new plastic - on sprue and all) - to become Hive Guard
2 Finecast Hive Guard
2 metal Tyrant Guard (which I will be giving crushing claws)
3 Zoanthropes (Now I have 7 )
The resin twin bonesword and lash whip & bonesword weapon sets
3 more pairs of FW Shrike wings.
This is all adding to my apocalypse formations and options.
Tempted to use the weapon kits and convert some old metal Hive Tyrants to Primes with them...
Tyran wrote: I disagree, the appeal of rippers is that they don't need synapse and can deep strike, making them good for Flying lists. In your list were all moved together, gaunts are better.
I deep struck the Rippers onto my opponent's backfield objective. They scattered 8". They ran 4". My opponent, recognizing my desire to take that objective use POTMS to insta kill them with an assault cannon from the Land Raider. Not every army has S8 to spare for insta killing warriors, but every single army is going to have divertible S6 or S7 shooting to insta kill rippers. In that way they might as well be 3 wounds instead of 9 in a min squad. The same cost will get you 10 Gaunts.
SHUPPET wrote: My god the Swarmlord sucks. Yeah he can "get it done once it a while", but at a ridiculous cost, and even then only just.
The fascinating thing was The Swarmlord + 2 Tyrant guard made their points back and then some. Their kill count looked like this.
5 man Tac Squad w/ Flamer and Combi Flamer.
Mephiston
Furioso Librian
for a total of 525 points.
He also scored 4 points for Warlord, 1 Point for issuing a challenge, 1 Point for controlling an objective and 1 point for killing a unit in assault.
A Flying Hive tyrant could have made his points, but wouldn't have scored the Tactical cards. Also, a Flying Hive Tyrant would have had no answer to Mephiston, and Brother Corbolo, who's 3+/2++ could eat an insane amount of dakka. I'm not arguing that the Swarmlord is better than a Flying Hive Tyrant most of the time, but in this matchup he was.
Tyran wrote: I disagree, the appeal of rippers is that they don't need synapse and can deep strike, making them good for Flying lists. In your list were all moved together, gaunts are better.
I deep struck the Rippers onto my opponent's backfield objective. They scattered 8". They ran 4". My opponent, recognizing my desire to take that objective use POTMS to insta kill them with an assault cannon from the Land Raider. Not every army has S8 to spare for insta killing warriors, but every single army is going to have divertible S6 or S7 shooting to insta kill rippers. In that way they might as well be 3 wounds instead of 9 in a min squad. The same cost will get you 10 Gaunts.
The problem with Gaunts is that you need someone to babysit them. Rippers are for that objectives in the corners of the map where no one is close to. For more contested objectives you use Skyblight Gargoyles.
rollawaythestone wrote: Am I the only one not playing Skyblight because I don't want to buy three Crones/Harpies?
I have the models (well, my own self made Crones and Harpies counts-as) and just haven't been interested so far in playing the most stock standard boring flyer spam list ever. I made Crones because they were useful outside of Skyblight last edition. Now they are trash I don't know what to do, probably still field them occasionally because they look cool and I put a fair bit of work to them, I might just have to field Skyblight to bring in the airforce However I don't like the idea of +1000 points of your list already being written for you, taken for the sole advantage of opening up extra slots to fit even more FMC's in, and that's FMC's that arent really all that great outside of just spamming flyers to abuse the "hard-to-hit" rule for silly cheese. Respawning Gargs are cool though. I think I'll just run 1 Flyrant + 3 Mawlocs + Skyblight so I can field all my models without relying on a crutch to win. Sucks the fun out of it imo.
You know what I used to run?
I ran a heavy reserves list with lots of Mycetic Spores, the Doom of Malan'tai and Ymgarl Genestealers.
It wasn't very competitive and only had a single Tervigon, (outflanking of course) but I loved that list and they RUINED IT!
*breaks down sobbing in a corner*
Just wait another 5 years or so for the next Nid codex, when GW will need to add some Cool New Models for us all to buy - some old timer will reminisce about Spore pods and everyone will say "hey, what an original idea"
Drop podding in Zoanthropes is no longer viable as it just bumps up the price by a 1/3 on an already seriously unreliable unit that just got even more unreliable.
No more Doom to come in the pod either.
Drop podding in Devilgants is ok I guess but a squad of 20 no longer unlocks a Tervigon to give them all TS and AG when he gets in Synapse range (hopefully the next turn). In fact even if it did unlock one it can no longer do that. On top of that, no more Preferred Enemy bubbles on Flyrants kinda sucks too. I think you may be better off just outflanking them for 15 points cheaper and letting you take 30. Not that this is particularly great without PEimo compared to all the amazing anti-infantry we have now.
Venomthropes in pods would be somewhat worthy however. Especially coming down the same turn as Lictors / Deathleaper, providing cover with the Spore body and giving them both a 3+cover save outside of Synapse range.
I think it probably wouldn't do as much stuff as you think, however triple deep-striking Dakkafex would be a pretty solid use of the HS slot for 190 pts each. However I think Trygons in the last dex were still probably better and did a similar thing, except bulkier.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PrinceRaven wrote: You know what I used to run?
I ran a heavy reserves list with lots of Mycetic Spores, the Doom of Malan'tai and Ymgarl Genestealers.
It wasn't very competitive and only had a single Tervigon, (outflanking of course) but I loved that list and they RUINED IT!
*breaks down sobbing in a corner*
Me too, Trygons were so boss with 6th Smash and proper ScyTals, you could run them into just about anything.
I gave my Tervigon Crushing Claws and 3 Biomancy powers. For proper havoc Get up to 7 smash attacks with Warp Speed lol
This is Combined arms of course to get the zoans seperate for max WC. I generally roll enough onslaught and psychic scream/horror to decimate opponents and the odd catalyst does not hurt. Also the strategic table is nuts. In the game that I rolled Ambush it was over quick.
My experience with both the rippers and shrikes are a bit different than Tag's. I did not mind the DSing rippers myself - cheap at 45 pts. The shrikes were good but my carnis and exocrines were the MVPs.
I can see combined arms being banned from tournaments, lol.
I love endless swarm, but them not being objective secured killed it for me. I'm now thinking of running a double FOCMSU list with no monstrous creatures (i just don't like the models, tyrants included).
This is Combined arms of course to get the zoans seperate for max WC. I generally roll enough onslaught and psychic scream/horror to decimate opponents and the odd catalyst does not hurt. Also the strategic table is nuts. In the game that I rolled Ambush it was over quick.
My experience with both the rippers and shrikes are a bit different than Tag's. I did not mind the DSing rippers myself - cheap at 45 pts. The shrikes were good but my carnis and exocrines were the MVPs.
I can see combined arms being banned from tournaments, lol.
Top notch list, one of the best 7th ones I've seen IMO.
Yes Master of Ambush is going to win you every game you get it with this list, absolutely brutal. 6 Zoans is a great way to secure onslaughts to hammertime turn 1 otherwise. I'm going to have to consider dual detachments for my Zoeys, the trade off for doing it this way however is literally the points for an AG Mawloc and a full Biovore squad, allowing you to turn the Shrikes into Warriors and turning the Exocrine into the Living Artillery formation giving you twin-linked and pinning, and JUST allowing you to fit it all in the FOC.
I'm definitely going to give this one a try tho, Onslaught is just that strong.
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Spoletta wrote: I love endless swarm, but them not being objective secured killed it for me. I'm now thinking of running a double FOCMSU list with no monstrous creatures (i just don't like the models, tyrants included).
Lol if you don't like any of the monstrous creature models you picked the wrong army bro that's like more than half the codex lol
Although I can see the attraction to taking nothing but 300 zerg kings. What's your HQs gunna be, Tyranid Primes lol?
This is Combined arms of course to get the zoans seperate for max WC. I generally roll enough onslaught and psychic scream/horror to decimate opponents and the odd catalyst does not hurt. Also the strategic table is nuts. In the game that I rolled Ambush it was over quick.
My experience with both the rippers and shrikes are a bit different than Tag's. I did not mind the DSing rippers myself - cheap at 45 pts. The shrikes were good but my carnis and exocrines were the MVPs.
I can see combined arms being banned from tournaments, lol.
Glad to hear it. How was it vs Heavy Armor? Or did you not see much?
Spoletta wrote: 1 Prime for a FOC and Deathleeper for the other one
And yes i totally do it for the gaunts.
So how many models do your run at 1850? 200? 250?
You can take about 50 Termagants + 50 Hormagants + 100 AG+TS Hormagaunts iif he just runs Prime and Deathleaper and still have some points left over for a few Venomthropes. I think this is probably the best way to do it, from turn 2-3 onwards everything is just going to be swamped in combat so there will be no point in taking too many guns. It's auto-lose to anything with Armor 11 though. But so is anything Tyranid without MC's, doesn't matter how you slice it. Lictors can glance up to AV12 I Guess. But I certainly wouldn't take them for this, I can't help but think it just needs some Carnifexes to stop it from being game over before it begins against so many list :( But meh if he hates the models he hates the models. Don't understand how anyone can think a Carnifex with 4 ScyTals looks bad tho !
The first list like this was made in 6E with endless swarm and had over 200 models. Now i'm running something more balanced to deal with at least AV10 rear and a single occurence of high AV.
Mainly it is:
Loads of vanilla gaunts and tgants
A bio bomb formation
A prime with reaper + ST and Ymgarl genes (the only possible answer to durable stuff)
Deathleaper
Min of rending raveners with red terror
Min of rending venon warriors with SC Min of rending venom shrikes with SC 3 x1 venom
3x1 zoan.
More of a fluff fun TAC list to play in non competitive settings. I found that i like mid size nids just as much as gaunts, especially raveners and warriors.
Haha...dropped my Hierophant off for a CB painting competition yesterday and noticed his front right leg felt 'off'. He had been standing on his own for well over a week now with no issues, so I just took note of it. Today they posted a pic of the final group of entries...notice anything about my big bug?
So much shaaaame. :( I wish they had just taken him out/forfeit him than take a FB of him. Sometimes you just have to be able to laugh. :(
Iechine wrote: Haha...dropped my Hierophant off for a CB painting competition yesterday and noticed his front right leg felt 'off'. He had been standing on his own for well over a week now with no issues, so I just took note of it. Today they posted a pic of the final group of entries...notice anything about my big bug?
Spoiler:
So much shaaaame. :( I wish they had just taken him out/forfeit him than take a FB of him. Sometimes you just have to be able to laugh. :(
Spoletta wrote: 1 Prime for a FOC and Deathleeper for the other one
And yes i totally do it for the gaunts.
So how many models do your run at 1850? 200? 250?
You can take about 50 Termagants + 50 Hormagants + 100 AG+TS Hormagaunts iif he just runs Prime and Deathleaper and still have some points left over for a few Venomthropes.
My instincts tell me that you should never run AG+TS gaunts in 7th. In 6th it made sense, because you got to reroll wounds. But with the change to the poison rule in 7th it seems like gaunts should have one upgrade or the other to avoid them being too much of a points sink.
SHUPPET wrote: Ok taking TS is a terrible idea I thought TS was cheaper for some reason.
HGaunts with TS are better in game than on paper. They are MC killers. They drop Wraith Knights and Wraith Lords with ease. Great Unclean one giving you trouble? Not any more. Good against beatstick HQ's. They are ok against MEQ and TEQ as well.
I rarely use AG HGaunts. Every time I've brought them, I've ended up facing a list where they were needed to tarpit something Ithan pop transports. I haven't tried them yet in 7th.
I usually have an answer to vehicles in the form of Flyrants, Crones, and Dakkafexes. So, TS Gaunts help me deal with Wraith Knights and their ilk.
SHUPPET wrote: Ok taking TS is a terrible idea I thought TS was cheaper for some reason.
HGaunts with TS are better in game than on paper. They are MC killers. They drop Wraith Knights and Wraith Lords with ease. Great Unclean one giving you trouble? Not any more. Good against beatstick HQ's. They are ok against MEQ and TEQ as well.
I rarely use AG HGaunts. Every time I've brought them, I've ended up facing a list where they were needed to tarpit something Ithan pop transports. I haven't tried them yet in 7th.
I usually have an answer to vehicles in the form of Flyrants, Crones, and Dakkafexes. So, TS Gaunts help me deal with Wraith Knights and their ilk.
It often comes down to what you're likely to see in your gaming group. In mine the only player who regularly uses MCs is me - hence, I get more value from AG horms.
Good points there for reliable AT in the codex, too. I agree with mass s6 shooting in most situations.
So guys, I up and lost myself in my work, and quite frankly, have not been listening to the hive mind very clearly of late. So, having lost my sense of purpose, and with this new edition, I need some help in molding my force into something that I can actually bother to carry to 15k and beyond. As it stands, here is my opinions on the units in the codex, and my general strategies so far; I need some new ideas, as well as ways of salvaging those units that I can't seem to really find a use for.
As some of my closer compatriots know, but most others probably don't, I run assault heavy 'Nids.
The Usable Swarmlord - My heart of the swarm, mostly just for tossing out some half-cocked buffs every turn.
Tyrant Guard - Ablative wounds for Swarmlord.
Tyranid Prime - Semi Cheap Synapse, but crappy. Decent character hunters.
Deathleaper - Leadership shenanigans, and some decent mid game pressure on his single characters.
Genestealers - Full broods are always fun, but starting to run into issues where they just aren't staying stuck in, and I can't even get MSU onto target without getting focused down.
Termagants - Been running them either stock or as devil's. Pretty much haven't found a decent way to take advantage of their shooting without them getting in the way of my Hormagaunts, ruining the screen.
Hormagaunts - Ultragaunts or bust. So expensive, but they have never steered me wrong.
Ripper Swarms - 15 points for some deep striking fun, but I am having some issues beyond mid game objective contesting or just sitting tight on back objectives. Have been thinking about 25pt Ultraswarms for secondary assault forces; workable?
Zoanthropes - Cheapest way to spam plenty of charges, but is there any decent way to keep the darn things from getting singled out?
Venomthropes - They performed well, but I fall short at every single game. These things can never cover my Hormagaunts past the first turn or two, right when I need it to, when they are easily within enemy rapid fire ranges, right before an assault. Help?
Ravenors - I like the idea, but I run into issues on keeping them cost effective. Also, is it a good idea to have a Red Terror every once in a while?
Gargoyles - Deepstriking termagants keep my friends occupied on something other than their front lines.
Spore Mine Cluster - Used them plenty in the old codex and loved them, but I can't seem to truly grasp the best option for them in this new codex.
Carnifex - Love that cheap melee goodness.
Biovore - Gave me the old spore mines, and seem like they are still decent artillery. They just tend to sit there and get forgot about though.
Mawloc - Looks good, but what are his odds of making it to the next turn once he breaks the surface?
The Unusable Hive Tyrant - Yea.. I can't justify the point cost for 2 warp charges or decent melee capability.
Old One Eye - Looks like a decent tank, but as a warlord, I can't figure out a decent way to get him into some good killing grounds without getting picked off early by anti-tank.
Tervigon - So, seems likely to go menopausal on me fairly fast, and horrible warp charge for the points. Can't even think of a good way to use it for melee.
Tyranid Warriors- I converted them to Primes. I can't even think of a decent reason for picking up a couple more boxes.
Hive Guard - Can these things really do much good against Landraiders? Doesn't seem like it, and I have 3 that I have a big problem with.
Lictors - These things work as a distraction, but never seem to do as much as I hope. Any ideas for what I should aim at?
Haruspex - It's a big guy, but I don't see these doing well enough to justify the price tag.
Pyrovore - Yea... I gave up when I turned the chalk board into a dry erase board and then turned it back into a chalk board with crappy ideas.
Shrikes - Deepstriking Warriors, but will they even do well with a nominally melee focus?
Sky Slashers - Too expensive for my walking rippers, but is the jump infantry movement worth it?
Harpy - The closest thing to aircraft in my local meta is a landspeeder.
Hive Crone - The closest thing to aircraft in my local meta is a landspeeder.
Trygon - Expensive, but worth it?
Trygon Prime - Even more expensive, but synaptic. Bargain or bust?
Exocrine - It's a straight shooter, but is it worth both price tags?
Tyrannofex - A big shooter, but I can't seem to justify that lousy armor and price in the face of en-masse plasma weaponry from Dark Angels.
Well, that's all I have. Hopefully some of you guys have some things that might bring me some new life into these models for me.
Now I know your liike assaulty Nids, but the fact is for Nid's to make it to assault they need to be able to put pressure on as well as thin some numbers with shooting. your list is pretty accurate for Tyranids in general, except:
Exocrine is great, having a choice between a S7 AP2 large blast or 6 shots, at BS4 is one of the best gunmen in the dex. He can cover us where we might otherwise have trouble with our shooting, nearly all our gunmen have or high or non-existent AP. And at the end of all of that he is 5 T6 wounds. For 5 points more, he's like a 6 man squad of Plague Marines, except every single one of them gets a Plasma Gun. And then one more. And the option of making it a Large Blast. And the utility to turn that Large Blast Pinning and Re-Rollable (which I'll get to in a sec).
Warriors are good for unlocking formations - most notably the Living Artillery Formation, giving an Exocrine, a 3 Biovores, and their own Venom Cannon, the bonuses of Twin-linked and Pinning. This is big for helping land hits of course, and massive for assault because pinning forces them to go to ground, meaning they can be assaulted at full initiative while in cover. It's not obvious at first that these guys help your assault armies as it's indirectly, but take note that say that full brood of Genestealers who you are paying Space Marine points per model for initiative 6 on? They have no frag grenades. In fact, nothing in the army really does naturally except Lictors, but can be purchased as an upgrade for Carnifexes (who can't use them) and Warriors/Shrikes, who it's very risky to pack upgrades onto since they already tear it up in combat, and have the massive Achilles heel of being insta-deathed by T8. Shrikes are also worth the mention that they are far better on the table than Warriors, they move at double the speed for the cost of superscoring. However they don't unlock your formations, but are still a great way of fast Synapse + doubling the likelihood of your "Warriors" (who are like better Terminators in assault) making it to combat.
Raveners are bad. Very bad. For the same amount of points, a Shrike does literally everything better including important things like "being jump infantry", and "having Synapse". This is because you can drop your gun for a free pair of ScyTals and even match Raveners for attack. There is no point to Rav's other than the Red Terror, and he's just not worth it.
Swarmlord and Hive Tyrant is the other thing worth mentioning. Swarmy has some good abilitys but costs a ridiculous amount of points. 285 points just isn't worth it for him when you can have two whole Hive Tyrants for 40 points more. Hive Tyrant is amazing though because he can also take wings for superfast mobility (and he brings his Synapse bubble with him), and can take dual BrainLeechDevourers, aka our top shooting unit. 12x S6 twin linked shots. With his mobility and 360 FMC shooting angels he has no problem getting coverfree shots on infantry, and shots on AV10 rear armor. Since he's our best other BS, on average, 11 of his 12 shots hit. That's pretty hardcore. And this is where Exocrine really compliments him for dealing with stuff with an armor save. The better the armor, the more S6 shots are wasted, and Exocrine cares nada about this.
Spore miness aren't that great once you start using them because they either hit 1 in 3 times, or do nothing. No BS to lower the scatter distance either since it's deepstrike. I would say USABLE with the formation that allows you to take 3 squads of Gargoyles and 3 Squads of Spore Mines outside the FOC, and it allows the spore mines to move a full 6" and charge normally, letting them actually catch something if they miss (which most of the time they will ).
Tyrannofex is great at lower points games, equipped with regen he will never die and with Acid Spray is an absolute brick who will carve a line through Xeno's each turn. However if a common opponent for your is DA Plasma Spam he will be much less effective so I can see that Still a good model, worth taking in maximum numbers each time though, they should make up the core of your army if you are running them IMO, 2 at 1000 pts and 3 at 1500 or higher (any higher than 1000 don't bother with Regen as it will rarely be worth it). We are basically a 3+ army and he is our Terminator squad. He's pricy but way better priced than SM terminators. Thorax Swarm gives him two templates a turn. He's a damn good option to have in the codex.
Also, Tyranid Prime is just terrible. For cheaper than his base price you can get 4 Warriors or Shrikes, nuff said. Ridiculously overpriced.
Venomthropes - They performed well, but I fall short at every single game. These things can never cover my Hormagaunts past the first turn or two, right when I need it to, when they are easily within enemy rapid fire ranges, right before an assault. Help?
This is fine man! It's rare that they do. They are only a 45 point unit!! They waste some opponents shots and eat a little bit of fire. Bring 1 every game, it just makes the rest of your force stronger!
Mawloc - Looks good, but what are his odds of making it to the next turn once he breaks the surface?
Low if he's by himself, but that's ok - he's the cheapest source of T6 wounds in the dex! (and possibly the game I believe, even cheaper than Nurgle Bikers). Take them in multiples and some will survive lol. They eat ALOT of firepower for their points regardless, so it's ok in fact a good thing if that's where your opponent is pointing his guns (and they may have to) it means he's doing his role while the rest of your army gets there quicker.
Remember, everything you read is just an opinion (including my own), if you really want think Swarmy is what your list needs, take him. If the reasoning why hes bad makes sense to you, maybe rethink it, you know the deal. I just typed this out with the intention of giving you a second look and possibly some new strategies to play with =)
Obviously, these are you own thoughts and opinions and I respect you for putting them out there like that. I would like to correct a few of your "classifications" that have been pretty universally agreed upon by most Tyranid players.
The Usable Swarmlord - My heart of the swarm, mostly just for tossing out some half-cocked buffs every turn. Yeah, sorry, this guy got worse for more points. Slow, can't make it to combat effectively. I think most avid Tyranid players would put him in "The unusable" Tyrant Guard - Ablative wounds for Swarmlord. Tyranid Prime - Semi Cheap Synapse, but crappy. Decent character hunters. Deathleaper - Leadership shenanigans, and some decent mid game pressure on his single characters. Genestealers - Full broods are always fun, but starting to run into issues where they just aren't staying stuck in, and I can't even get MSU onto target without getting focused down. They didn't get better. They just got what they always should have had. Move through cover (granting essentially assault grenades now), but they still crumple to basic troop weaponry. I don't know about you, but even if they make it to combat, you'll lose 3 genestealers before you strike due to overwatch.... Termagants - Been running them either stock or as devil's. Pretty much haven't found a decent way to take advantage of their shooting without them getting in the way of my Hormagaunts, ruining the screen. Hormagaunts - Ultragaunts or bust. So expensive, but they have never steered me wrong. Ripper Swarms - 15 points for some deep striking fun, but I am having some issues beyond mid game objective contesting or just sitting tight on back objectives. Have been thinking about 25pt Ultraswarms for secondary assault forces; workable? Zoanthropes - Cheapest way to spam plenty of charges, but is there any decent way to keep the darn things from getting singled out? Venomthropes - They performed well, but I fall short at every single game. These things can never cover my Hormagaunts past the first turn or two, right when I need it to, when they are easily within enemy rapid fire ranges, right before an assault. Help? Ravenors - I like the idea, but I run into issues on keeping them cost effective. Also, is it a good idea to have a Red Terror every once in a while? Gargoyles - Deepstriking termagants keep my friends occupied on something other than their front lines. Spore Mine Cluster - Used them plenty in the old codex and loved them, but I can't seem to truly grasp the best option for them in this new codex. These are only good in the form of Biovore misses. I wouldn't waste valuable points on them prior to deployment. Carnifex - Love that cheap melee goodness. Biovore - Gave me the old spore mines, and seem like they are still decent artillery. They just tend to sit there and get forgot about though. Mawloc - Looks good, but what are his odds of making it to the next turn once he breaks the surface?
The Unusable Hive Tyrant - Yea.. I can't justify the point cost for 2 warp charges or decent melee capability. You are dead wrong here. The only reliable HQ unit that we have (not to mention the most versatile. Wings and Dual Twin linked devourers give you the ability to place SitW just about anywhere in the board (forcing enemy psykers out of position or they risk periling and losing their psyker). The shooting gives you the ability to glance armored units to death, hammer fliers into the ground, or cause ~10 Wounds to any infantry unit. Old One Eye - Looks like a decent tank, but as a warlord, I can't figure out a decent way to get him into some good killing grounds without getting picked off early by anti-tank. Tervigon - So, seems likely to go menopausal on me fairly fast, and horrible warp charge for the points. Can't even think of a good way to use it for melee. This one is tough. Yes, it went up in cost (which it should have). MCs got Smash reduced to 1 attack. But with automatic access to dominion and another psychic power (which the Nid ones aren't bad, just don't compare them to the most OP powers out there....here's looking at you Divination. Tyranid Warriors- I converted them to Primes. I can't even think of a decent reason for picking up a couple more boxes.They're cheap synapse. Before 6.5? edition, they were better. Now since tanks are going to make a comeback, S8 weaponry is going to make it's way back into more lists. I still think that they have a place in some lists. Hive Guard - Can these things really do much good against Landraiders? Doesn't seem like it, and I have 3 that I have a big problem with. Lictors - These things work as a distraction, but never seem to do as much as I hope. Any ideas for what I should aim at? Haruspex - It's a big guy, but I don't see these doing well enough to justify the price tag. Pyrovore - Yea... I gave up when I turned the chalk board into a dry erase board and then turned it back into a chalk board with crappy ideas. Shrikes - Deepstriking Warriors, but will they even do well with a nominally melee focus? Now that everything has objective Secured when taken within normal FOC limitations you essentially have scoring warriors that can move 12" a turn. I wouldn't call them "unusable" but they definitely have their niche in our codex. Sky Slashers - Too expensive for my walking rippers, but is the jump infantry movement worth it? Harpy - The closest thing to aircraft in my local meta is a landspeeder. Harpies aren't anti air. They are best used as synergistic assault units. Forcing the enemy to -5 initiative on the turn it charges, you can oftentimes assist units that need that initiative advantage in order to swing combat in your favor. If anything, the Harpy got even better only taking 1 grounding test a turn ***If*** it took an unsaved wound. Hive Crone - The closest thing to aircraft in my local meta is a landspeeder.Hive Crones are still good. They've just changed from our awesome vector striking unit, to an effective counter to AV14 (which Nids struggle with). 4 Haywire shots give you a chance that Nids don't have otherwise at range to damage vehicles. Trygon - Expensive, but worth it? Trygon Prime - Even more expensive, but synaptic. Bargain or bust? Exocrine - It's a straight shooter, but is it worth both price tags? Tyrannofex - A big shooter, but I can't seem to justify that lousy armor and price in the face of en-masse plasma weaponry from Dark Angels.I agree, damage output isn't revolutionary. However, the T-fex isn't typically taken in that regard. The T-fex excels at removing enemy support units. What Tau has markerlights in the form of Pathfinders? Oh yeah....here's a torrent flamer that ignores your cover AND your armor. Wait, those Scouts scoring that objective and their 2+ Cv is preventing your Devourers from removing models? Same story. Torrent flamer wins. But what I found most crucial about the T-fex is the 2+ save. MSU units that would otherwise be able to cause 3-4 wounds a turn in assault against your other MCs can't because their Krak grenades don't cause unsaved wounds. Especially with AG (for Fleet), the T-fex can definitely become a thorn in your opponent's side if not dealt with. Oh hey....by the way....Do you know the math in order to remove a 2+ Sv, 5+ Cv, 5+ FnP model with 6 T6 wounds? From anything except Grav weaponry your opponent would be better off focusing his/her plasma, melta, lascannon fire elsewhere. That's even with a 5+ Cv, Venomthrope anyone? Now you get a 3+Cv.
Well, that's all I have. Hopefully some of you guys have some things that might bring me some new life into these models for me.
Again, what you think and how units work out for you in practice is what's important. I still respect all/most Tyranid players just simply because they choose to play an army that is significantly disadvantaged (as of late) compared to all of the other armies out there. I still play them for the challenge. What most people don't realize, is that Tyranid lists require a finesse that other armies don't.
Some people play 40K for the thrill of the win. Some people play for the challenege. Some don't play at all. To each their own. But don't tell me that people playing the Jetseer council or the (previously known) O'vesa star are playing for the challenge, because frankly, when you don't lose units turn and turn again, while you decisively remove your opponents units, where's the challenge?
Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.
Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.
Just a note on the raveners vs shrike argument. With 7e if you want assault only and don't care about synapse then ravener is the way to go due to higher speed. Move 12 and reroll assault and charges while shrikes only get one of the two. Also ignore terrain which isn't half bad. Red terror adds strenght 5 and 6 to gt, making it a good unit for opening metal boxes.
Shrikes have access to Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Boneswords, Flesh Hooks, and as Synapse Creatures are always Fearless. That makes them much better than Raveners to me.
PrinceRaven wrote: Shrikes have access to Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Boneswords, Flesh Hooks, and as Synapse Creatures are always Fearless. That makes them much better than Raveners to me.
For a higher cost though. If we are comparing the 35 point Rending Ravener with the 35 point Rending Shrike, the Ravener moves more quickly across the board in most circumstances (since Wings must choose either the faster move or the re-rollable charge) and come with I5, striking before a lot of opponents and running enemies down more easily, where as the Shrike can access places the Ravener cannot (jump movement), gets HoW and comes with Synapse/Shadows.
You can pile the upgrades on the Shrike, but it starts to get very costly very quickly and dakka is always quick to point out how easily a T4 platform dies to ID. If we're really going with the upgrades though, you can also pile guns onto Raveners without losing their melee effectiveness.
In an edition that is skewed against assault, both struggle to compete with gun platform creatures, but Shrikes and Raveners are very close to one another. Shrikes may just edge out in the end because of HoW being great though.
PrinceRaven wrote: Shrikes have access to Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Boneswords, Flesh Hooks, and as Synapse Creatures are always Fearless. That makes them much better than Raveners to me.
For a higher cost though. If we are comparing the 35 point Rending Ravener with the 35 point Rending Shrike, the Ravener moves more quickly across the board in most circumstances (since Wings must choose either the faster move or the re-rollable charge) and come with I5, striking before a lot of opponents and running enemies down more easily, where as the Shrike can access places the Ravener cannot (jump movement), gets HoW and comes with Synapse/Shadows.
You can pile the upgrades on the Shrike, but it starts to get very costly very quickly and dakka is always quick to point out how easily a T4 platform dies to ID. If we're really going with the upgrades though, you can also pile guns onto Raveners without losing their melee effectiveness.
In an edition that is skewed against assault, both struggle to compete with gun platform creatures, but Shrikes and Raveners are very close to one another. Shrikes may just edge out in the end because of HoW being great though.
And Shrikes have synapse and can have a few kitted with specialty weapons...not to mention "free" guns with an effective 30" range.
I've got some comments that differ from other people a bit.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: So guys, I up and lost myself in my work, and quite frankly, have not been listening to the hive mind very clearly of late. So, having lost my sense of purpose, and with this new edition, I need some help in molding my force into something that I can actually bother to carry to 15k and beyond. As it stands, here is my opinions on the units in the codex, and my general strategies so far; I need some new ideas, as well as ways of salvaging those units that I can't seem to really find a use for.
As some of my closer compatriots know, but most others probably don't, I run assault heavy 'Nids.
The Usable Swarmlord - My heart of the swarm, mostly just for tossing out some half-cocked buffs every turn. There is no doubt that the Swarmlord is overcosted, and a flying Dakka Tyrant would be better. But he is our 2nd best HQ choice. He buffs, he is a psychic powerhouse, and he is great in close combat.
Tyranid Prime - Semi Cheap Synapse, but crappy. Decent character hunters. Overcosted with overcosted upgrades. No longer able to Join Walkrants, Swarmlords, or Carnifexes limits his already limited usefulness. He slows down HGaunts and Shrikes. He was already a fairly marginal choice, now a downright bad one.
Deathleaper - Leadership shenanigans, and some decent mid game pressure on his single characters.Leadership just got less important. Useful if the entire list is built around him. Otherwise...
Genestealers - Full broods are always fun, but starting to run into issues where they just aren't staying stuck in, and I can't even get MSU onto target without getting focused down. Genestealers are worth 8-9 points. They cost twice that. They are awful. Really, really bad. This weekend I played someone who I hadn't played before, and so I ran the crappiest army I could against him. That meant 16 ST + AG genesteelrs and a broodlord. I managed to pin a unit of 7 Nobz, a painboy, and a Warboss. I got 11 genesteelers and the broodlord into assault with them. 320 Points of my elite assault troops in the best of all situations vs 240 points of his more versatile, less optimized troops. After 3 rounds of assault, there were no Tyranids left, and he still had 120 points worth of Orks.
Termagants - Been running them either stock or as devil's. Pretty much haven't found a decent way to take advantage of their shooting without them getting in the way of my Hormagaunts, ruining the screen.Devilgaunts work as long as you run them in mixed units, and have a rolling hoard making the long walk across the board. Don't work with certain combinations.
Hormagaunts - Ultragaunts or bust. So expensive, but they have never steered me wrong.One upgrade or the other, or run them with no upgrades to maximize their efficiency.
Ripper Swarms - 15 points for some deep striking fun, but I am having some issues beyond mid game objective contesting or just sitting tight on back objectives. Have been thinking about 25pt Ultraswarms for secondary assault forces; workable?Overcosted. Everyone has access to S6 shooting to ID them.
Zoanthropes - Cheapest way to spam plenty of charges, but is there any decent way to keep the darn things from getting singled out?Big buff in 7th. Solo Zoeys are great. They do die, but can take a lot of fire before death. I try to deploy them out of LOS.
Venomthropes - They performed well, but I fall short at every single game. These things can never cover my Hormagaunts past the first turn or two, right when I need it to, when they are easily within enemy rapid fire ranges, right before an assault. Help?Run a single venom, and try to keep him out of LOS. You can only count on him for turn 1. Turn 2 is a maybe. Make sure to conga line 2-3 gaunts back so that they can get buffed. If you don't have 2-3 gaunts to conga line it is because your gaunts are too expensive.
Ravenors - I like the idea, but I run into issues on keeping them cost effective. Also, is it a good idea to have a Red Terror every once in a while?Raveners are surprisingly good. Rending claws, no other upgrades. They are what Genesteelers should be. Only a tad overcosted. They have fleet and ignore terrain, plus Initiative 5 which means they strike first against a majority of other units.
Gargoyles - Deepstriking termagants keep my friends occupied on something other than their front lines.I never deep strike my Gargoyles. They are fast enough and cheap enough to run them out front as bubblewrap. They are faster and taller than HGaunts. Big enough to bubblewrap MCs. Run them in front of upgraded Hormagaunts to give them a 3+ cover save.
Spore Mine Cluster - Used them plenty in the old codex and loved them, but I can't seem to truly grasp the best option for them in this new codex.No good options in the new codex. Same price as an HGaunt, and an HGaunt is better.
Carnifex - Love that cheap melee goodness.2 TL Devourers, no other upgrades. A good unit that mostly escaped the giant nerfs to TMCs in 7th.
Biovore - Gave me the old spore mines, and seem like they are still decent artillery. They just tend to sit there and get forgot about though.Cheap backfield objective scoring. Run them solo or as part of Living artillery. Wonderful against enemy support units like devastators or marker lights.
Mawloc - Looks good, but what are his odds of making it to the next turn once he breaks the surface?Mawlocs are tough. Big nerf in 7th by taking away smash. I bet my Mawlocs smashed more than they did their normal attacks in 6th. They aren't worthless, but are highly random.
The Unusable Hive Tyrant - Yea.. I can't justify the point cost for 2 warp charges or decent melee capability. Hands down the best HQ. Gunboat style (2 TL-Devourers, E.Grubs, Wings) are top tier. If you run them any other way, you are nerfing yourself. That being said, if you must run a Melee Tyrant, consider giving him wings, but Gliding the whole time. You can still Jink for a 4+ cover, and a venom bumps that to a 2+
Old One Eye - Looks like a decent tank, but as a warlord, I can't figure out a decent way to get him into some good killing grounds without getting picked off early by anti-tank.Would be good if he cost 140 points. Overcosted by 1/2
Tervigon - So, seems likely to go menopausal on me fairly fast, and horrible warp charge for the points. Can't even think of a good way to use it for melee.Tervigon is our toughest Objective secured option. However, they are overcosted. With Maelstrom cards they are strongly sub-optimal. In EW missions, they can work. Always give them E.Grubs.
Tyranid Warriors- I converted them to Primes. I can't even think of a decent reason for picking up a couple more boxes.A decent support unit. Min Squads provide synapse. Zoeys got buffed. Shrikes are better.
Hive Guard - Can these things really do much good against Landraiders? Doesn't seem like it, and I have 3 that I have a big problem with.Not near enough shots. For BS3. Worth it if they were 30 points. Overcosted.
Lictors - These things work as a distraction, but never seem to do as much as I hope. Any ideas for what I should aim at? If you want to run Lictors, look at the formations, and build your entire list around them
Haruspex - It's a big guy, but I don't see these doing well enough to justify the price tag.Overcosted on paper, never tried him in game.
Pyrovore - Yea... I gave up when I turned the chalk board into a dry erase board and then turned it back into a chalk board with crappy ideas.
Shrikes - Deepstriking Warriors, but will they even do well with a nominally melee focus?Shrikes are the bomb. They are fast, and can be as good as raveners in CC. ST+RC+FH, and you have a killer assault unit with a chance to pop transports. Take them if you need synapse besides zoeys or HQs. If you take raveners, you need a matching squad of shrikes to support them.
Sky Slashers - Too expensive for my walking rippers, but is the jump infantry movement worth it?
Harpy - The closest thing to aircraft in my local meta is a landspeeder.Good if you are looking at hoard armies. For Instance, Guard blob disappears under a TLSTC and a Spore bomb. I never see hoard armies, so I never use them.
Hive Crone - The closest thing to aircraft in my local meta is a landspeeder.A very good choice. Killer anti-air. Does ok against infantry. Survivable thanks to the nerf to Quad guns. Flying Dakka Tyrants are better.
Trygon - Expensive, but worth it? The Nerf to smash hit them hard. Not worth it.
Trygon Prime - Even more expensive, but synaptic. Bargain or bust?Overcosted, but situational useful.
Exocrine - It's a straight shooter, but is it worth both price tags?Dakkafexes have pushed him out of my heavy support slots thanks to the changes in 7th. If I start seeing elite infantry, I might bring it back.
Tyrannofex - A big shooter, but I can't seem to justify that lousy armor and price in the face of en-masse plasma weaponry from Dark Angels.Nerfed in 7th. Always take E.Grubs. Carnifexes are better.
Well, that's all I have. Hopefully some of you guys have some things that might bring me some new life into these models for me.
PrinceRaven wrote: Shrikes have access to Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Boneswords, Flesh Hooks, and as Synapse Creatures are always Fearless. That makes them much better than Raveners to me.
For a higher cost though. If we are comparing the 35 point Rending Ravener with the 35 point Rending Shrike, the Ravener moves more quickly across the board in most circumstances (since Wings must choose either the faster move or the re-rollable charge) and come with I5, striking before a lot of opponents and running enemies down more easily, where as the Shrike can access places the Ravener cannot (jump movement), gets HoW and comes with Synapse/Shadows.
You can pile the upgrades on the Shrike, but it starts to get very costly very quickly and dakka is always quick to point out how easily a T4 platform dies to ID. If we're really going with the upgrades though, you can also pile guns onto Raveners without losing their melee effectiveness.
In an edition that is skewed against assault, both struggle to compete with gun platform creatures, but Shrikes and Raveners are very close to one another. Shrikes may just edge out in the end because of HoW being great though.
Not much to add...but Shrikes can carry a Cannon...
So after a long time playing Dark Angels and zero time playing any 7th yet, I decided to pick a new army and settled on Tyranids. I bought a few models, 12 Hormagaunts, 3 Warriors, one of which I assembled as a Prime and a Hive Tyrant I assembled on foot.
Then I thought I'd check the internet to see what other people were taking in their Nid armies. Found this forum on Google!. Nothing like this thread to make me think I made a few mistakes in my assembly choices!
I only really play with my local group and don;t massively play competitively. Here's the list I wrote before reading this thread. Any chance on some criticism on what needs changing before I buy more models this thread seems set against!!?
Spoiler:
Tyranid Prime - AG, LW & BS, TS, Fleshooks
Vanomthrope
Venomthrope
3 X Zoanthopes
26 X Hormagaunts
26 X Hormagaunts
30 X Termagants - Devourers
4 X Ripper Swarms
Tervigon - CC, EG
5 X Warriors - rending claws, scything talons
Exorcine - AG, Regen
Mawloc - AG Trygon Prime - Miasma Cannon, AG
ictoabu wrote: So after a long time playing Dark Angels and zero time playing any 7th yet, I decided to pick a new army and settled on Tyranids. I bought a few models, 12 Hormagaunts, 3 Warriors, one of which I assembled as a Prime and a Hive Tyrant I assembled on foot.
Then I thought I'd check the internet to see what other people were taking in their Nid armies. Found this forum on Google!. Nothing like this thread to make me think I made a few mistakes in my assembly choices!
I only really play with my local group and don;t massively play competitively. Here's the list I wrote before reading this thread. Any chance on some criticism on what needs changing before I buy more models this thread seems set against!!?
Spoiler:
Tyranid Prime - AG, LW & BS, TS, Fleshooks
Vanomthrope
Venomthrope
3 X Zoanthopes
26 X Hormagaunts
26 X Hormagaunts
30 X Termagants - Devourers
4 X Ripper Swarms
Tervigon - CC, EG
5 X Warriors - rending claws, scything talons
Exorcine - AG, Regen
Mawloc - AG Trygon Prime - Miasma Cannon, AG
I make that 1997 points. Thoughts?
Well...I would descibe some of your choices as..."unpopular" But not unfixable. I'm guessing that you have not made purchases of a fair bit of this? If so, then you might want to figure a while before spending.
If you build your Heavies as Mawlock, Exocrene, Biovore(s) (x3) you can toss in a Warrior Brood to get a Living Artillery Formation, and have two slots open up for the Mawloc to get some rowdy friends.
I'd suggest: Winged Dakka'rant, with Thorax Hive for 240. If you've already glued as a Walker, you'll need Tyrant Guard, at least 2, 3 might be better. Most folks run Two Winged Tyrants, but you could get by with one, then add a Winged Tyrant later...
I suggest you run the Zoeys as two Broods, for the extra roll, and the extra WC. You can double up the Veno Brood for durability. If you get a second HQ (technically you do right now) you can run twin CADs and use 6 Elite slots. That alows you to single out all of them. (if you wish, I prefer Doubled out broods for durability)
Hormies are not strong choices sadly. I use them, mostly because I own them. I tend to run them in Broods of x15. I modded a fair number of them to Devilgaunts (Termigants with Devourers) I tend to run them as 50/50, or most often 2/1. So my x30 Brood would be 20x Vanilla, +10 Devils. It is more economic, you can take loses from the cheap models first. And it just plain cost fewer points.
I don't know if Crushing Claws are worth it on a Tervigon, but I always want a Thorax Hive with Electro bugs.
ictoabu wrote: I only really play with my local group and don;t massively play competitively. Here's the list I wrote before reading this thread. Any chance on some criticism on what needs changing before I buy more models this thread seems set against!!?
If you are good with it, no need to change. Don't change because we say so. Just find inspiration from the forum, and see what speaks to you.
Consider the following
20 X HGaunts
20 X HGaunts (TS)
One squad of poison gaunts can really threaten a lot of things. If you ever see a Wraith Knight or Wraith Lord, these will be lifesavers.
So, I'm sure you modeled these already. But if you have some fleshborer gaunts or spinefist gaunts, you can run them like this:
30 X Termagants - 20 Devourers, 10 Spinefist and save 40 points
or
20 X Termagants - 10 Devourer, 10 Spinefist
20 X Termagants - 10 Devourer, 10 spinefist. and spend the same number of points, but get 10 more wounds, and a second squad.
You can put the cheap guants up front. It makes it so their firepower lasts longer into the game instead of ablating throughout.
Deep strike them or don't take them. Unless you've got some technique where they are useful.
ictoabu wrote: 5 X Warriors - rending claws, scything talons
1) I prefer Shrikes as offensive warriors. GW doesn't feel like Shrikes need wings, so you can just call the Warriors Shrikes, and run them as such.
2) Flesh Hooks are a really reasonable upgrade for these. It will allow them to overwatch a bit, and they will have a chance to pop a transport, and assault the guys inside. Plus if your meta is as marine heavy as mine, having the initiative bonus in assault is good.
I don't think the upgrades add much. I would drop them both and save the points for something else.
Overall, I don't think your list needs massive reworks. Top tier lists are going to revolve around dakka flyrants, but if your meta doesn't include flyers, they can be overwhelming for your opponents.
A few formations you might consider. Living Artillery (requires 3 biovores) and Endless Swarm which you have the models for, but since units lose objective secured, it isn't as desirable as it used to be.
PrinceRaven wrote: Shrikes have access to Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Boneswords, Flesh Hooks, and as Synapse Creatures are always Fearless. That makes them much better than Raveners to me.
For a higher cost though. If we are comparing the 35 point Rending Ravener with the 35 point Rending Shrike, the Ravener moves more quickly across the board in most circumstances (since Wings must choose either the faster move or the re-rollable charge) and come with I5, striking before a lot of opponents and running enemies down more easily, where as the Shrike can access places the Ravener cannot (jump movement), gets HoW and comes with Synapse/Shadows.
You can pile the upgrades on the Shrike, but it starts to get very costly very quickly and dakka is always quick to point out how easily a T4 platform dies to ID. If we're really going with the upgrades though, you can also pile guns onto Raveners without losing their melee effectiveness.
In an edition that is skewed against assault, both struggle to compete with gun platform creatures, but Shrikes and Raveners are very close to one another. Shrikes may just edge out in the end because of HoW being great though.
You don't need to pile on the upgrades, a single Bonesword Shrike massively increases the melee threat of a unit of Shrikes for only a small investment. But, really, it's the grenades that sell Shrikes to me, I'd rather strike at initiative 4 than 1.
ictoabu wrote: So after a long time playing Dark Angels and zero time playing any 7th yet, I decided to pick a new army and settled on Tyranids. I bought a few models, 12 Hormagaunts, 3 Warriors, one of which I assembled as a Prime and a Hive Tyrant I assembled on foot.
Then I thought I'd check the internet to see what other people were taking in their Nid armies. Found this forum on Google!. Nothing like this thread to make me think I made a few mistakes in my assembly choices!
I only really play with my local group and don;t massively play competitively. Here's the list I wrote before reading this thread. Any chance on some criticism on what needs changing before I buy more models this thread seems set against!!?
Spoiler:
Tyranid Prime - AG, LW & BS, TS, Fleshooks
Vanomthrope
Venomthrope
3 X Zoanthopes
26 X Hormagaunts
26 X Hormagaunts
30 X Termagants - Devourers
4 X Ripper Swarms
Tervigon - CC, EG
5 X Warriors - rending claws, scything talons
Exorcine - AG, Regen
Mawloc - AG Trygon Prime - Miasma Cannon, AG
I make that 1997 points. Thoughts?
Based on what you have bought.
1 prime (+cc fanciness)
1 Venomthorpe
1 Zoanthorpe
20 hormagants (run with prime)
5 warriors (4x dev+ 1 stranglethorn cannon) (throw in rending claws as you like)
Mawloc/ Exocrine
Mawloc/ Exocrine
Play and add as you like:
Coms relay (for mawlocs- until they FAQ that we can’t use them)
termagants
Zoanthorpes
With the money you saved buy a second tyrant (+wings+ 2 twin linked dev)
You can bore out the arms on the tyrant you have with a small drill bit and knife. Then add wings. The model doesn’t have to have flying tail changed out.
The truth is the tyrant is too weak without an invulnerable save. Hive guard cost more money and points then the wings.
Here’s an idea:
Tyrant (Wings+ Adrenal glands+ reaper of oblitorax) (kills AV13+ and jinks 4+) (it’s an unproven idea I’m working on, which may be controversial)
Biovores are ugly and expensive in money (but dope in points)
I regret buying my Tervigon, trygon, genestealers, swarmlord, walking tyrant, and tyrant guard.
They say exocrines work better in pairs.
Mawlocs do work better in pairs and threes (3= being a jerk though)
Tervigons can’t give birth to devourers and spine fists. Remember this in case you want to get the most out of your termagant model collection.
Check out thetyranidhive.com for even more ideas.
Wait for the kinks in 7th to be figured out.
Have to disagree on Exocrines working better in pairs, 1 is enough, taking a Mawloc is better after the first Exo as it covers models hiding in cover (pretty big) and is less specialised than the Exocrine, covering you on a bunch of bases. Both are good though.
So having really gone back and read BattleForged army compositions, I discovered that you do not have to take a CAD or Allie Detatchment. Now I am pretty sure most tourneys will require this, however, in large point games it does open the option of just running the Living Tide Formation from the the 3rd supplement as a Battle Forged Army.
In smaller games I can see doing just the Synapse Node or Tyrant Node and either Skyblight or Endless Swarms for fluffy Tyranid goodness.
And this works for both Unbound and Battle forged, infact I am not really seeing much reason to run Unbound with 'nids. Pretty much everything you want is in a Formation already.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everyone I know considers unbound to be in the same category as the "These rules are guidelines and you can throw any of them out as you wish" note in the book.
ductvader wrote: Didn't know anyone was running unbound...at all.
Everyone I know considers unbound to be in the same category as the "These rules are guidelines and you can throw any of them out as you wish" note in the book.
Everyone in my gaming group agreed that unbound was not allowed. But now, a few players who feel like they aren't winning their fair share (by which they mean every game they want to win) are now starting to talk unbound. It is setting up a conflict in the near future.
As literally everyone predicted, it is poised to fracture my gaming group, with some players starting to voice the "Its in the rules therefore I can do it" argument. A breakup was inevitable since the new FOC dropped, the only question is how much of the group we can keep together, and how effective we will be at enforcing majority rule. Perhaps we were doomed from the start.
The worst thing about the new FOC is not playing against the super-spammy armies, it is dealing with the negative feelings it creates between gamers.
ductvader wrote: If you play tournaments and enforce no unbound...no one will want to play unbound because why play something that doesn't help you in the long run...
If you don't play tournaments as a group...unbound can be fun...but also exhausting and annoying...and no one has incentive not to play unbound.
I have not seen a good Unbound list that could not be done with CAD, Allies, and Formations better. The only thing I see unbound really being good for is playing with incomplete armies or very event fluffy lists.
Unbound is gonna be popular in some formats, but I don't know how much so it will be in tourneys. I can see an "Unbound Only!" tourney being pretty interesting, but mixing the two is going to cause a bit of strife. And even though NO ONE ON EARTH believes that GW was being benevolent in adding it to 7th Ed., it does allow for a semblance of balance in narrative campaign settings. I know there are a lot of players who don't even KNOW anyone who KNOWS anyone playing such a thing, but they do happen!
That being said, I agree on the strength of our dataslates. Even though I have griped a bit about 7th ed. and its nerfbat aimed near directly at Tyranids (GRRRRR), I still think our formations keep us competitive (until 3 Land Raiders hit the board...). People have chatted a good bit about Skyblight, and Living Artillery and Endless Swarm have some teeth as well. Other than AR13+ en masse, I still have not had a lot of trouble. I don't win EVERY time, but I feel the list competes well...
...unless I play Tau.
And at least 7th has pretty much said that, at least in GW's eyes, dataslates and formations are the new norm. With three books of 'em to play with, that gives us some room to play!
Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!
Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!
Eldercaveman wrote: Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!
Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!
...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?
Eldercaveman wrote: Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!
Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!
...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?
Heavy 1, but shot by Grots so BS3. And although I haven't seen the points, I think spammable would be a fair early judgement.
Eldercaveman wrote: Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!
Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!
...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?
Heavy 1, but shot by Grots so BS3. And although I haven't seen the points, I think spammable would be a fair early judgement.
You can spam 5 for like 200 points and 5 points each to twinlink 1s
Eldercaveman wrote: Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!
Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!
...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?
Heavy 1, but shot by Grots so BS3. And although I haven't seen the points, I think spammable would be a fair early judgement.
Looks like a good unit to plop a psychic scream onto
Eldercaveman wrote: Things aren't looking good for Skyblight with the new Ork release and the Trakktor cannon. Str 8 Ap3 Skyfire, and if a FMC takes a wound from it, it suffers -3 to its grounding check!
Its not much better for Flyers though, as they suffer and immoblise result from any Glance or Pen!
...
Man, the prevalence of AP3 outside our codex is insane.
Is it at least like 1-2 shots BS2 though?
Heavy 1, but shot by Grots so BS3. And although I haven't seen the points, I think spammable would be a fair early judgement.
Looks like a good unit to plop a psychic scream onto
Or a Mawloc.
I'm interested see how it works for wounding, if it has a Grot crew, and an Artillery profile will the grots majority toughness take over. Could even have a low AP, which will make it Devourer bait.
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I'll definitely take your advice on board.
Few units that got overlooked that I really rate from seeing them in games:
30 X Termagants with Devourers
A few people mentioned mixing firepower up. Why is that? To soak up wounds? I've seen that unit first hand, from the receiving end, decimate a unit of terminators with spare wounds! I understand the cost versus casualties debate, but sure 90 S4 shots is a threat that MUST be dealt with?
Trygon Prime with Miasma Cannon
Anyone tried this? I've seen it pop up amongst Tau lines and obliterate a lot of Fire Warriors and instantly become public enemy number one whilst the rest of the army creeps up!
I may admit defeat on the on foot Hive Tyrant though...
I've largely avoided flyers as the previous addition created a massive boom in flyer-heavy armies (thanks Helldrakes!) and a lot of armies now seem to have overcompensated with lots of anti-air. This makes me think taking no flyers makes some of my opponents army irrelevant if it's tooled for anti air?
Good luck with Trakkta Gun spam against my no flyers army!
A. I don't see everyone in a playgroup suddenly going ork, even as allies. It is expensive in time and money.
B. If the thing that has this gun has Skyfire and no alternative shooting mode then it sucks even worse than usual (Orks bad shooty!) against anything on the ground. This makes it less likely to be taken unless flyers are pretty prevalent in your meta.
C. If 5 of them costs 200pts, then it SHOULD be good against flyers! Outside of Flyrants, that is 200pts to stop 185pt or less (usually) models!
D. How hard is it to kill? Is it a vehicle? If not, how does it feel about Biovores? Or flamers? Or dual TL-Devos + Worms? It is a better option than many lists have for anti-air, sure... but I don't see it as overwhelming. It shoots and one of our FMCs has ISSUES. So long as we can hit back, there is parity.
I dunno, what you said about it doesn't really make me sweat too hard. A quad-gun on an aegis line with a SM shooting it is just about as bad, plus it provides cover for a whole squad and the gun can be manned by the next guy when the shooter bites the bullet. Unless the orks run pretty much nothing but those (and heaven help them if they do!), then they will nail one FMC a round, and probably lose that to return fire. If you put enough pressure on them with what you have, it should still work out.
I also don't sweat pre-release codex rumors, either. Remember, up until the day the book came out, Snap Shots in 7th ed. were going to just be at a minus to the BS.
The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.
jifel wrote: The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.
Thanks, jifel... I only really check the rumors page about once a week. Getting all worked up for partial rules is like REALLY wanting a PB&J without knowing if there is any bread around for me.
But still, I agree. I think it will be a bit of a hassle (and therefore a higher target priority for us), but that is no different than any other Skyfire gun out there. It just means that we'll have to kill it first... that is, unless it is in an AR14 vehicle. In that case, we... uh... pray?
I just hope Orks still die to Biovore attacks a good bit. I always liked the idea of Orks being killed by Orkanids. I just wish Biovores didn't make my wallet cry our in fear any time I think about buying some...
Against orks just keep those FMCs gliding instead of swooping, it's not like the orks have a great BS anyways. Then that nasty traktor kannon is hitting you on a 6.
jifel wrote: The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.
Thanks, jifel... I only really check the rumors page about once a week. Getting all worked up for partial rules is like REALLY wanting a PB&J without knowing if there is any bread around for me.
But still, I agree. I think it will be a bit of a hassle (and therefore a higher target priority for us), but that is no different than any other Skyfire gun out there. It just means that we'll have to kill it first... that is, unless it is in an AR14 vehicle. In that case, we... uh... pray?
I just hope Orks still die to Biovore attacks a good bit. I always liked the idea of Orks being killed by Orkanids. I just wish Biovores didn't make my wallet cry our in fear any time I think about buying some...
I agree completely, I usually wait before panicking. I'm not too worried though. I mean Hydras kill our crones easily, but they're just not good against most things so they suffer at TAC, and therefore rarely show up!
It's T7 W2. At 30 ppm with two Gretchin it's really cheap T7 wounds (8 of them for the price of a Carnifex) and you can have up to 5 in a squad. I think running a unit of 2 or 3 will probably be a given at 60-90 points, it's definitely a base they need to cover and can easily do now. However, FMCS can play around this by staying in jump mode - yeah it opens them up to anti-MC ground shooting, but thats gotta be used on something anyway. And it denies any points pumped into these things as they will only hit jump FMCS on 6's and can't force a grounding check. Better than taking any assured two or three wounds on a Flyrant.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wings on Flyrant are priced at 35 points, and at this stage all you should be running is two of them. All these Traktor guns do for us is deny Swooping mobility, but still allow Jump mode. It's balanced. However, If you are playing skyblight and your opponent has a gang of these, I feel sorry for you.
Actually, no I don't. Flyer spam is called cheese for a reason - it gives you cheesy victories if your opponent is unprepared for your tactic. If you put all the cards on them not takin anti-air (as is mostly the case), then you earned your loss when you find the guy who does.
jifel wrote: The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.
Yeah, I'm thinking it will be an exelent place to toss left over points into.
jifel wrote: The trakta gun has been seen and it's rules have been scanned. We know what it does. And frankly, it won't be spammed because it hits normal units on a 6. So yes, one unit may sneak in there and become a threat, but nothing major.
Yeah, I'm thinking it will be an exelent place to toss left over points into.
I would expect most Ork armies to have 1 battery of these unless the other Heavies are awesome. One anti flyer unit I can deal with.
ictoabu wrote: Thanks everyone for your feedback. I'll definitely take your advice on board.
Few units that got overlooked that I really rate from seeing them in games:
30 X Termagants with Devourers
A few people mentioned mixing firepower up. Why is that? To soak up wounds? I've seen that unit first hand, from the receiving end, decimate a unit of terminators with spare wounds! I understand the cost versus casualties debate, but sure 90 S4 shots is a threat that MUST be dealt with?
It is a lot of firepower indeed. In fact it is perhaps too much firepower too concentrated. It is too easy to tarpit, and unwieldy to move. Also, any wounds done to it reduce its damage output. Contrast that to 2 mixed units. You have the same amount of firepower that is harder to deal with. Causing wounds doesn't substantially reduce its damage output unless you do a lot. You can't tarpit it, because there are two units. You can't avoid it as easily, because 2 units are less unwieldy.
Anyone tried this? I've seen it pop up amongst Tau lines and obliterate a lot of Fire Warriors and instantly become public enemy number one whilst the rest of the army creeps up!
I've tried it. It is ok. You have to give up 1 close combat attack. That used to be a big thing giving up 1 smash attack. Now that we have lost Smash, it isn't the worst thing. But, because of the nerfs to Smash the Trygon Prime himself lost a lot. It was overcosted to begin with, and now it is very overcosted. Compare a Trygon Prime to a Dakka Fex. 240 to 150 points. It is really hard to justify 90 extra points for a MC that can't deal with vehicles as well.
Miasma Cannon isn't my favorite wargear for a Trygon Prime because it is fairly expenses, and he doesn't tend to live long enough to earn its points back. Certain matchups like Guard Blob or Orks might be ok against, but generally it is better on paper than in reality.
Ok, I apologize for the long delay between my last post and this one, but a few developments came about. Anyhow, I just became the largest Tyranid player in town after buying the other largest 'Nid player's army to help him out.
So, I just picked up;
8 Tyranid Battleforces (Several Warriors have been converted to shrikes)
10 Carnifexes
3 Hive Tyrants (2 Flyrants, 1 Walkrant)
2 Trygons
2 Tyrannofexes
4 Tervigons
1 Zoanthrope
1 Harpy
1 T-Fex/Terv kit.
So, with that in mind, a few more questions then. This puts me with several more options for list building and the like. So, with these new add ons, What is going to be my best option for adding some structure to my play style? And on a side note, will Tervigons do decently in melee?
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Ok, I apologize for the long delay between my last post and this one, but a few developments came about. Anyhow, I just became the largest Tyranid player in town after buying the other largest 'Nid player's army to help him out.
So, I just picked up;
8 Tyranid Battleforces (Several Warriors have been converted to shrikes)
10 Carnifexes
3 Hive Tyrants (2 Flyrants, 1 Walkrant)
2 Trygons
2 Tyrannofexes
4 Tervigons
1 Zoanthrope
1 Harpy
1 T-Fex/Terv kit.
So, with that in mind, a few more questions then. This puts me with several more options for list building and the like. So, with these new add ons, What is going to be my best option for adding some structure to my play style? And on a side note, will Tervigons do decently in melee?
Wha... wha... what? Why... How...
Sweet Norn queen that's a lot of bugs! I demand pictures! (demand = at some point, it'd look pretty cool. Just whenever.) Seriously, how on Terra would you ever need so many bugs? If you like Apocalypse, it sounds like you have enough to run most of the formations, which is just freaking insane.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Ok, I apologize for the long delay between my last post and this one, but a few developments came about. Anyhow, I just became the largest Tyranid player in town after buying the other largest 'Nid player's army to help him out.
So, I just picked up;
8 Tyranid Battleforces (Several Warriors have been converted to shrikes)
10 Carnifexes
3 Hive Tyrants (2 Flyrants, 1 Walkrant)
2 Trygons
2 Tyrannofexes
4 Tervigons
1 Zoanthrope
1 Harpy
1 T-Fex/Terv kit.
So, with that in mind, a few more questions then. This puts me with several more options for list building and the like. So, with these new add ons, What is going to be my best option for adding some structure to my play style? And on a side note, will Tervigons do decently in melee?
Wha... wha... what? Why... How...
Sweet Norn queen that's a lot of bugs! I demand pictures! (demand = at some point, it'd look pretty cool. Just whenever.) Seriously, how on Terra would you ever need so many bugs? If you like Apocalypse, it sounds like you have enough to run most of the formations, which is just freaking insane.
You can never have too many bugs.
I have easily over 10000 points in tyranid models.
jifel wrote: I concede defeat then. I think I'm sitting at 5000 without silly upgrades? Ah, the joys of youth.
It's a product of having more "hobby" cash than common sense. Don't feel bad - any given game 80-90% of my stuff sits on the shelf. But... I can pretty much field any list I want and have it be wysiwyg (which is super important to me).
I'm picking up a Mawloc this weekend... I already have 1 plus 2 trygons and a trygon prime. lol
jifel wrote: I concede defeat then. I think I'm sitting at 5000 without silly upgrades? Ah, the joys of youth.
It's a product of having more "hobby" cash than common sense. Don't feel bad - any given game 80-90% of my stuff sits on the shelf. But... I can pretty much field any list I want and have it be wysiwyg (which is super important to me).
I'm picking up a Mawloc this weekend... I already have 1 plus 2 trygons and a trygon prime. lol
I aspire to have that many points... I'm sure you're popular in Apocalypse games!
Actually, he was selling it for almost nothing. Besides, I already look at my army as something that I planned to grow to Apocalypse levels. That being said, the Dark Angels player who I brought into the game, and has become one of my prime irritants with the amount of plasma he likes to bring against my Carnifexes, keeps trying to come up with flimsy fluff reasons so he can "ally" with my army for Apocalypse matches. I keep telling him the only allies I accept are ketchup, mustard, and the occasional monofilament nail file. All I need now is a decent graphic artist to draw up a Hive Tyrant's face with a cocky grin with the caption "Got Templates?" underneath for use on a t-shirt.
So, looking at these new developments, what do you guys think about fishing for catalyst for those Tyrannofexes? The way I see it, I will probably keep them stock. Stinger Salvo isn't what I would like, but it seems like it will work well for a decent secondary. On the Trygons, should I run them stock, or grab regeneration for a little extra endurance? Or perhaps just cheat and run them as Mawlocs? On the Tervigons, should I keep them stock or give in to my nature to make round numbers and toss them Cluster Spines?
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Actually, he was selling it for almost nothing. Besides, I already look at my army as something that I planned to grow to Apocalypse levels. That being said, the Dark Angels player who I brought into the game, and has become one of my prime irritants with the amount of plasma he likes to bring against my Carnifexes, keeps trying to come up with flimsy fluff reasons so he can "ally" with my army for Apocalypse matches. I keep telling him the only allies I accept are ketchup, mustard, and the occasional monofilament nail file. All I need now is a decent graphic artist to draw up a Hive Tyrant's face with a cocky grin with the caption "Got Templates?" underneath for use on a t-shirt.
So, looking at these new developments, what do you guys think about fishing for catalyst for those Tyrannofexes? The way I see it, I will probably keep them stock. Stinger Salvo isn't what I would like, but it seems like it will work well for a decent secondary. On the Trygons, should I run them stock, or grab regeneration for a little extra endurance? Or perhaps just cheat and run them as Mawlocs? On the Tervigons, should I keep them stock or give in to my nature to make round numbers and toss them Cluster Spines?
Catalyst and regen on tyrannos can make them unstoppable against the right lists, and damn tough against others! Keep them stock, hit them up with Onslaught and acid spray torrent can catch a lot of people out.
Cheat and run them as Mawlocs!
If you are going to give your Tervigon anything I'd recommend Electro grubs.
Vs a sensible opponen at regular points armiet, Regen at best will give you back 1 wound on a Tfex for 30 points. The rest of the time it's 30 PTS wasted.
Except at 1000 PTS or lower. A regen Tfex is a big investment down there but he's much more likely to survive more than one turn of shooting (or even all of them). Tfex in general is just better at lower points values, his role in the codex to me is winning 750-1250 pt games, in numbers.
Catalyst is worth it to protect your points investment tho, but still often better cast on a Flyrant or Carnifex brood. Tfexs don't have incredibly consistent damage output, and they are really costly, against any Marine army they are often just best off ignoring him to waste your points. Don't compound the issue by putting Catalyst on him if it's better cast elsewhere .
Trygons in general are a strong competitor for worst unit in the codex. Not because he does nothing, because he's so overpriced. Trygon prime is just 40 pts worse. As said you can grab two Carnifex. That miasma cannon makes it two Mawlocs. Spend points wisely.
Tyranid Prime - Semi Cheap Synapse, but crappy. Decent character hunters. Overcosted with overcosted upgrades. No longer able to Join Walkrants, Swarmlords, or Carnifexes limits his already limited usefulness. He slows down HGaunts and Shrikes. He was already a fairly marginal choice, now a downright bad one.
I had it pointed out to me that a Prime can still join a unit of Tyrant Guards (and thereby joining a Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord). Still a sub-par choice though.
Now that tyrranofex is scoring in every game his value skyrocketed. His torrent flamer owns other xenos' troops and GEQ, and he can bust tanks in melee in a pinch.
For the points, regen can extend his lifespan considerably. I'm even taking it on my flyrants now, because of the change in grounding tests - no more marker lights knocking my flyrant down followed by tons of missiles at full BS.
I'm looking for a little help here, I simply cannot seem to crack the Tau-nut. Every single game I play, example of last three games, newbie w/Farsight Bomb @1850, Tau Gunline w/double 'Tides @1850 and my last game @1250 Versus a Tau Mobile Armored Force, three Devilfish packed with Troops/HQ, a Riptide and three Tetra.
First game versus newbie w/Farsight Bomb I won, because of two lucky Ld roles on eight Termagaunts, 2 squads, one of 6 and one of 2. At 1850, despite it being a "win" it was horribly demoralizing. In this game I was running 2 Flyrants, 3 Venomthrope, Tervigon w/Gaunt Tax, 1 Crone, Living Artillery, an Aegis Defense line and a Mawloc. Filled in with some extra Warriors for points to 1850.
Second game was the same, similar list, yet Hammer and Anvil deployment versus a Tau Gunline. I almost won on points, but again, an extremely demoralizing victory. I felt completely behind the ball the whole game.
The last game I got seized on after I committed my entire hive to the 12" mark with plans to be hyper aggressive, I forgot about the new Jink rule and gave up First Blood/Warlord before I even got to go. That was the only big mistake that game and I feel it would have been a lot different had that not happened. This list was 2 Flyrant, 6 Warriors (spit into two Units, this donkey-cave likes to Synapse snipe all game and laugh while he does it) with Devs/Boneswords, 20+ Hormagaunts, Living Artillery.
My question for discussion, at this point, is there any viable strategy, idea, etc that isn't "buy Gargantuan" or "Go Skyblight" that might help someone with these options crack a casual Tau player in half? I'm really struggling here and I'd like to put this out there to a broader mindset in the hopes I can pull a little more moral victories out of my Tau matchups.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Actually, he was selling it for almost nothing. Besides, I already look at my army as something that I planned to grow to Apocalypse levels. That being said, the Dark Angels player who I brought into the game, and has become one of my prime irritants with the amount of plasma he likes to bring against my Carnifexes, keeps trying to come up with flimsy fluff reasons so he can "ally" with my army for Apocalypse matches. I keep telling him the only allies I accept are ketchup, mustard, and the occasional monofilament nail file. All I need now is a decent graphic artist to draw up a Hive Tyrant's face with a cocky grin with the caption "Got Templates?" underneath for use on a t-shirt.
So, looking at these new developments, what do you guys think about fishing for catalyst for those Tyrannofexes? The way I see it, I will probably keep them stock. Stinger Salvo isn't what I would like, but it seems like it will work well for a decent secondary. On the Trygons, should I run them stock, or grab regeneration for a little extra endurance? Or perhaps just cheat and run them as Mawlocs? On the Tervigons, should I keep them stock or give in to my nature to make round numbers and toss them Cluster Spines?
My favorite build for Tyranofexen is: Adrenal Gland, Thorax Hive (Electro Bugs) for 200 per. Not perfect, but "good enough" I also obsessively add Electro bugs to Tervigons, for 205 each. Though I seldom (as in never) run more than 1 in a list.
Somebody posted a "thing of art" up in Army lists, a nice list with 6 Carnifexen. You might take a look at it.
I usually find Regen to be a poor use of points, except in low point games, I prefer to spend points elsewhere. Mawlocs are always good (IMHO) there's always room for Mawlocs.
Take a gander at my "Psycho" lists I've been posting, they may not be "perfect", but they are not short of Synapse, or Warp Charges.
I am officially jealous of your vast horde of bugs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
notbriang wrote: I'm looking for a little help here, I simply cannot seem to crack the Tau-nut. Every single game I play, example of last three games, newbie w/Farsight Bomb @1850, Tau Gunline w/double 'Tides @1850 and my last game @1250 Versus a Tau Mobile Armored Force, three Devilfish packed with Troops/HQ, a Riptide and three Tetra.
First game versus newbie w/Farsight Bomb I won, because of two lucky Ld roles on eight Termagaunts, 2 squads, one of 6 and one of 2. At 1850, despite it being a "win" it was horribly demoralizing. In this game I was running 2 Flyrants, 3 Venomthrope, Tervigon w/Gaunt Tax, 1 Crone, Living Artillery, an Aegis Defense line and a Mawloc. Filled in with some extra Warriors for points to 1850.
Second game was the same, similar list, yet Hammer and Anvil deployment versus a Tau Gunline. I almost won on points, but again, an extremely demoralizing victory. I felt completely behind the ball the whole game.
The last game I got seized on after I committed my entire hive to the 12" mark with plans to be hyper aggressive, I forgot about the new Jink rule and gave up First Blood/Warlord before I even got to go. That was the only big mistake that game and I feel it would have been a lot different had that not happened. This list was 2 Flyrant, 6 Warriors (spit into two Units, this donkey-cave likes to Synapse snipe all game and laugh while he does it) with Devs/Boneswords, 20+ Hormagaunts, Living Artillery.
My question for discussion, at this point, is there any viable strategy, idea, etc that isn't "buy Gargantuan" or "Go Skyblight" that might help someone with these options crack a casual Tau player in half? I'm really struggling here and I'd like to put this out there to a broader mindset in the hopes I can pull a little more moral victories out of my Tau matchups.
Well...the "simple" answer is speed. You need to get downfield as fast as you can, but with Synapse. Outflank, and Deepstrike are very good tools for this. It puts a big distraction in the backfield so your main force can run up into range. FMCs are so popular for this reason as well.
I'd suggest that just for starters take Hive Commander, and Outflank a Tervigon, with a Thorax Hive. Spawn as soon as you arrive so you can bubble wrap. That gives you two Objective secured Troops, with Synapse (and the possability of more) in his face. That should keep them entertained while you close in on supper.
Sadly the only "answer" for Alpha Strikes is careful setup...many folks have been forced into taking a Fort, so they can place some terrain where its most useful (see "Veno in a box" ) I like Tunnels vs Tau, but I am considered a little "odd" for that reason. ( I include Mawlocs under "Tunnels work" )
My standard "solution" to Synapse hunting, is to swamp them with Synapse. I often build lists with as many Synapse sources, as there are units that need Synapse. While they shoot at Zoeys, I can close in.
I too find games vs tau demoralising. Just that no matter how well I'm doing verse Every other army I can only scrape in victorys vs a rag tag bunch of Xenos with a couple of Riptides.
They are Hardcore, and just by nature counter us, having abundance of med-high strength all with low AP, vs us being a 3+ army - except unlike Marines our threat range pretty much starts at 18"., and them having double that.
Your first list is pretty good. I would recommend dropping 2 Venoms for Zoanthropes. 1 venom out of line of sight should do the same job as 3 anyway most games. Zoanthropes are an extra roll at Onslaught to help push your guys into shooting range a turn early. Drop the Crone. They suck. Flaming a squad of pathfinders sounds cool but is not worth 155 points (aka an AG Mawloc). To likely get 1 good template and do little else. Tyrannofexes do this job better. Give AG to it and any other MC that doesn't have wings (including Mawloc). Tervigon is just giving your opponent free points.. Him and his Gant brood single-handedly push your from 1500 to an 1850 pt army. He will never be worth it. Take Carnifexes instead.KEEP the living artillery formation. Roll for Master of Ambush Warlord trait, reroll if you don't get it, no matter what. If you get it and go first, infiltrate a Carnifex brood and an Exocrine into shooting range turn 1, and whatever else you packed (Tfex nice). Alpha with all that + 2 Flyrants + 3 biovores to suddenly leave him with half an army before the game starts. Laugh at him. If you go second, outflank them and jink the Flyers, hide with Venoms. Mawlocs are great, take 1or2, don't deep strike on top of Riptides but as close as possible to charge (preferably without wasting entry blast )
Obviously you can't do all of these things, but pick which work for you. It IS a winnable match up, and this TFG sounds like a scrub. Be sensible in killing marker lights - don't waste 12 TL S6 shots on them for example , however - feel free to throw Mawlocs blast at it if he's not in the ruin. Biovores are your Markerlight killers though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 1 thing I stress is keep that Living Arty whatever you do
Automatically Appended Next Post: And ignore anyone who says take Skyblight. It's a subpar list , like it or not. Some just can't see past 7 FMCs.
A liitle ways upstream, I posted a suggested List in this thread that used Living Artillery, and two Mawlocs. That sort of thing is very good vs Gunlines. You might take a look at it and see if you get any ideas.
I really like the list pine one, except once again I'm gunna be a downer on the Tervigon. You already have 2 solid troops without it and the termagants, you have an open HS slot, so that could easily be two Carnifexes with Devvies lol
I know I sound like a broken record but damn, trading Dakkafexes for Termagants is never a good thing. People need to see that Tervigon is only ever worth it at 1000 and under
SHUPPET wrote: I really like the list pine one, except once again I'm gunna be a downer on the Tervigon. You already have 2 solid troops without it and the termagants, you have an open HS slot, so that could easily be two Carnifexes with Devvies lol
I know I sound like a broken record but damn, trading Dakkafexes for Termagants is never a good thing. People need to see that Tervigon is only ever worth it at 1000 and under
Don't blame you for hating on the Tervigon...it Is overpriced. But it has Synapse, and Objective secured (most times) and those are important features, to me anyway. A lot of the time the fine features of a list come down to "style". And there is no such thing as "correct" in matters of style. Besides, that list uses the models he has... I wouldn't say "go buy a Tervigon", but if you own one...use it.
I don't think relying on Objective Secured Troops is going to be an effective tactic in 7th. I'm expecting maximum threat overload hyper-offensive lists are going to be the way forward.
In 6th Tervigon with 30 Gants were my staple troops, but in 7th with everything scoring I just can justify her anymore. I'm now running min size Termagant squads, and skylight Gargoyles.
I have two, still use em, just to take scoring by the reins at 500-1000 pts where both armies have a low unit count, Tervigons don't die so easy, and zero cost Termagants make up a much larger percentage bonus to the size of your army, and nearly makes up for how overpriced he is. At 1500 or higher I won't even consider him though. But as you said it's prolly a play style difference, I can dig it - I'd personally much rather have 24 TL S6 shots, 2 more wounds, and a bunch of S9-10 attacks in CC as opposed to a bunch of Termagants. I CAN see why the other is chosen, I just can't see how it's justified tho.
One thing I'd like opinions on TS Horms a I know they can tear it up, but at 8 ppm I can't help but think that they are just Wyches, with less WS and imitative. And no venoms raiders or Webway. Or haywires. Can someone help me out here cause I'm still conflicted :(
Well you have seen my list SHUPPET. Despite being objective secured troops I would field Shrikes before hormagants in pretty much any match up.
As well, Carnis are the 'new black'. If you have the die to roll onlaught - and you should - and if you get ambush - this is close to autowin vs. Tau. The list that i posted earlier is just so strong in the meta. I do like living artillery though. I just do not want to forgo my 6 Zoans.
One thing I'd like opinions on TS Horms a I know they can tear it up, but at 8 ppm I can't help but think that they are just Wyches, with less WS and imitative. And no venoms raiders or Webway. Or haywires. Can someone help me out here cause I'm still conflicted :(
They aren't awful. They are fairly useful most of the time, but suffer from being a pure assault unit with low T/poor Sv (so to Overwatch, basically).
They aren't as numerous as Termagants, so make a poorer tarpit. They aren't as lethal as Devilgants, and so aren't as killy.
They are quite dangerous to MCs, and negate the high toughness some infantry pay a lot for. They also cleave through light infantry fairly easily.
Their kill ratio goes up a lot if their target is Pinned (read into that about their situational use).
I used to run a blob of 30 with Toxin Sacks and they were fun. They feel very... "old school Tyranids", and that is something I enjoy when our best units are shooters now. Catalyst is their friend (more so than almost any other unit I would say, along with Gargoyles). Lately though, when I have used them I have run them in three broods of 10 as part of an Endless Swarm (alongside a Trygon Prime actually, for the tunnel and Synapse) and they have been a bit more successful, coming back into play late-game and being right in the thick of it.
Use them if you want, because they are a little too dangerous to ignore so your opponent must do something about them, and you can use that to your advantage. Don't expect them to sweep a flank though.
felixcat wrote: Well you have seen my list SHUPPET. Despite being objective secured troops I would field Shrikes before hormagants in pretty much any match up.
As well, Carnis are the 'new black'. If you have the die to roll onlaught - and you should - and if you get ambush - this is close to autowin vs. Tau. The list that i posted earlier is just so strong in the meta. I do like living artillery though. I just do not want to forgo my 6 Zoans.
Your list is a very strong concept and sees it out to the end. Mine is a bit more rounded less likely to push fast Heavy Support. At this stage I think I'm an equal fan of both (which I like). Problem with yours is that most tournaments have outlawed the dual FOC. I'll post my list in a sec.
Yeah Shrikes really do outclass Horms bigtime as CC units. I can see why Horms can hurt things just not how they are worth their points. Especially with no frags. The question was really only asked because I'm curious to see if there is SOME points effective way to make my mandatory troop slots a bit more than min points into Termagants aka damage control. But I think even Warriors are better. With our masses S6-S7 MCs aren't really a drama anyway not one worth spending the price of another Mawloc on 15 TS Horms. I do appreciate Xyptcs response though.
It is STILL an autowin with Master of Ambush, obviously push 4 Carnis up and the Exocrine. Dont get it, bait out dispel dice with your first 6-8 rolls, then use any rolls of Onslaught to push Carnis into shooting range of anything at the front of their DZ.
TL Biovores pump any Xenos in the ruins, and Exocrine can use BS4 and TL to reliably force a 4+ on Centurions there (this is the very best our codex can do about this).
Lone Mawloc is a very all-rounder type guy who can hit guys with armor throwing off Devourer fire, or guys in cover doing the same, can charge a tank or MC turn 3, synergisesand contributes heavily to turn 2 alpha if no master of ambush / outflanking , just cause a general backfield threat / distraction, and is cheap + really tanky + mobile scoring after all is said. He doesn't have a specific role but nothing really fills the 150 pts better. You really don't need 12 more Devourer shots from another Dakkafex, you already have 72. Points are better spent supporting this. Zoans would but need 80 more points for double FOC and that's not even allowed everywhere :( low AP + utility is why Mawloc is the best pick here.
jifel wrote: I concede defeat then. I think I'm sitting at 5000 without silly upgrades? Ah, the joys of youth.
I haven't done the maths.
I think I'm still sat at 14,000 points or so sans upgrades. Admittedly it does include 3 Hierodules...but I'd need to sit down and do the maths again.
Still, having 6 Hive Tyrants plus the Swarmlord is fun for larger games as it allows me to field the Tyranid High Command and Psychic Choir formations in particular with Tyrants to spare. Which is always good, to have additional assets and a mixed unit of Tyrant Guard, Zoeys and the Tyrant himself with their 30 inch range, 10 shot AP 1 blind and pinning Nova....
Yours is quite a decent list SHUPPET. However I would take 3 rppers w/ DS over ten termagants anyday and I'm not a fan of walking warriors ( although they are there for living artillery obviously).
I do not like the Mawloc. You cannot covince me it is better than than a carnifex. Without dual CAD your list is something very close to what I would run as well.
jifel wrote: I concede defeat then. I think I'm sitting at 5000 without silly upgrades? Ah, the joys of youth.
I think I'm still sat at 14,000 points or so sans upgrades. Admittedly it does include 3 Hierodules...but I'd need to sit down and do the maths again.
I'm at 5,000 sans upgrades, but I've still got some missing pieces.
1) a 2nd Tervigon / TFex
2) a 3rd Flyrant / Walkrant
3) a 3rd and 4th Crone / Harpy.
4) 1 to 2 Exocrines.
5) Another 30 gargoyles.
That is another 5 months of purchases.
The Warriors are there for Living Artillery Formation actually. They are a requirement to give TL and pinning to themselves, the Biovores and the Exocrine (while in range) and also let's them fit in the FOC.
Carnifex is the other option to Mawloc of course, I just feel like 4 is enough already especially with the two Flyrants aka Carnifexes with Wings the Mawloc helps cover me on things that AP less devourers may not e.g. armor and cover saves and catching transports. However, I certainly wouldn't mark down any man who picked a Carnifex instead as they are of course, badass mofos.
As it stands, it's choice between Deepstriking Rippers or AG on the Mawloc - I'd rather have my Mawloc securing charge ranges and hitting 3 S7 AP2 into a Riptide or a vehicles rear armor. And if the Mawloc was a Dakkafex like you suggested, it would mean dropping a Thrope or an eGrubs. Just doesn't seem worth it. I might consider barebones Rippers however to just run to an objective each, but i do like pushing the 20 Termagants up slightly behind Dakkafexes to help them with any serious tarpit that might ruin their day, or distract some troop shooting because of this.
Tyranid Prime - Semi Cheap Synapse, but crappy. Decent character hunters. Overcosted with overcosted upgrades. No longer able to Join Walkrants, Swarmlords, or Carnifexes limits his already limited usefulness. He slows down HGaunts and Shrikes. He was already a fairly marginal choice, now a downright bad one.
I had it pointed out to me that a Prime can still join a unit of Tyrant Guards (and thereby joining a Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord). Still a sub-par choice though.
That a debatable point as you can see in the Riptide IC debate in YMDC.
Why even bother debating it, if you already have a Tyrant there is no reason to consider a Prime. Then again, there is no reason to ever take a Prime as Deathleaper is a much better choice for cheap HQ
Tyranid Prime - Semi Cheap Synapse, but crappy. Decent character hunters. Overcosted with overcosted upgrades. No longer able to Join Walkrants, Swarmlords, or Carnifexes limits his already limited usefulness. He slows down HGaunts and Shrikes. He was already a fairly marginal choice, now a downright bad one.
I had it pointed out to me that a Prime can still join a unit of Tyrant Guards (and thereby joining a Hive Tyrant/Swarmlord). Still a sub-par choice though.
That a debatable point as you can see in the Riptide IC debate in YMDC.
Debatable in that one side is clearly right according to the rules as written but the other side continues to argue anyway.
Didn't get a chance to rematch against that Lord of Skulls this week, but did have a interesting game against Dark Eldar with the Maelstrom missions. We drew the Contact Lost mission and I think it's my favorite of all the ones I've played thus far. Basically, each player generates 1 tactical objective at the start of the game and every turn thereafter they generate 1 additional tactical objective (up to 6) for each objective marker they currently hold. I brought a semi-swarmy list (40 Gargoyles + 40 Hormagaunts), so I was able to cover most of the table and generate 2-3 objectives a turn while my opponent was only able to get 1 a turn thanks to the carpet of gaunts clogging up the board. I ended up with 9 victory points to their 7, though at the end of the game I was really badly depleted with only 3 Hormagaunts, a Warrior, and a Harpy with a single wound left vs a pair of unharmed Raiders, a pair of Razorwing Jetfighters, and a pair of Ravagers. Still, the mission really helped even out the playing field, since he couldn't just hang back and shoot me to death all game before zipping forward to claim/deny objectives. I was actually able to put up a fight, which was quite refreshing in all honesty.
Also from league night, I lent my Haruspex to a fellow 'nid so they could get a game in with the model and it managed to destroyed an Imperial Knight all by itself! The Knight apparently charged the Haruspex on the first turn, did 2 wounds to it, and took 4 hull points(!!!) in return from the Haruspex (apparently it scored 2 hits, 1 glance and 1 pen which exploded for a total of 3 HPs). Next round the Knight did another 2 wounds and blew up from the return blows before it could try to stomp (and incidentally, died before a supporting Tervigon was able to lend its own armorbane attacks). Sadly, the Haruspex's rampage ended next turn to retaliatory battlecannon fire from another knight on the other side of the table...
BeeCee wrote: Against orks just keep those FMCs gliding instead of swooping, it's not like the orks have a great BS anyways. Then that nasty traktor kannon is hitting you on a 6.
Even gliding you're a FMC which is all Skyfire cares about.
You get hit as normal.
I see those trukks being taken pretty often since Skyfire hits skimmers as well... and skimmers are pretty prevalent.
PrinceRaven wrote: I don't think relying on Objective Secured Troops is going to be an effective tactic in 7th. I'm expecting maximum threat overload hyper-offensive lists are going to be the way forward.
Not disagree'in, but for me, Objective Secured Troops etc, is part of my Threat Overload. "I am about to set up house, with a big Brood of gribbles, right ova heah!" But I have always run Troops heavy lists. So that is part of my "style". If it won't work for you, well try something different.
I figure, if I set up Broods of Objective Secured on 4+ locations, I get to take advantage of defending terrain. And I influence my enemies actions.
In a weird way, I am using the "big shiney model" tactic, but instead of a Wraithknight, I'm using a Swarm of Rippers.
If I can distract a foe with Troop movements, then hopefully they won't see the hammer till it falls.
BeeCee wrote: Against orks just keep those FMCs gliding instead of swooping, it's not like the orks have a great BS anyways. Then that nasty traktor kannon is hitting you on a 6.
Even gliding you're a FMC which is all Skyfire cares about.
You get hit as normal.
I see those trukks being taken pretty often since Skyfire hits skimmers as well... and skimmers are pretty prevalent.
Oh ouch, missed the fact Skyfire was only concerned about Unit Type.
So, I would have to check on any ruling changes on reserving army requirements, etc, but what is the general opinion on Subterranean Assault at this point? I like the idea of yet more ways to bring my bugs swarming out of the backfield.
SHUPPET wrote: Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.
Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.
Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.
That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.
SHUPPET wrote: Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.
Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.
Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.
That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.
Move through cover removes the -2 to assault penalty, it doesn't remove the "strike at I1" penalty
SHUPPET wrote: Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.
Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.
Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.
That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.
Move through cover removes the -2 to assault penalty, it doesn't remove the "strike at I1" penalty
The rules are written below to quell any idea of "technically" or "essentially" when a response comes down. I've seen far too many "lol move through cover gives assault grenades nao!!" posts on the back of "technically" and "essentially". In fact, if the word "technically" or "essentially" ever comes in at any point in your argument, you should probably stop talking.
These are the rules - 7th Edition has been remarkable in that the majority of the rules are crystal clear and in plain language. There is no interpretation required, only comprehension.
Can this get back to discussion of the strengths of Tyranids and Unit strategies instead of turning into a YMDC nightmare?
TL;DR - Move Through Cover does not cover any part of the rules that cover Charging Through Difficult Terrain and Initiative penalty, it does not specify in any place that it negates the penalty to Initiative.
Specifically
Move Through Cover A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rolls an extra D6 when rolling to move through difficult terrain and is not slowed by charging through difficult terrain. In most circumstances, this will mean that, when moving, the unit rolls 3D6 and picks the highest roll. Furthermore, a model with the Move Through Cover special rule automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests.
Assault Phase: Charging Through Difficult Terrain
Bold Part I
If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining its charge range.
Bold Part II
if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1
Anyway, off the subject of rules debates and back to Tyranid Strategy - I first posted this in the Tyranid Allies thread, but I haven't seen it mentioned in here yet so I think I'll share it:
SHUPPET wrote: Taking Dark Eldar allies allows you to unleash Crucible of Malediction on Psykers forcing all models within 3D6 (average 10-11") to "pass a leadership test or be removed from play as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed."
This could be kind of badass coupled with SitW and maybe Deathleapers ability on say, AN INVISIBLE BELAKOR, or farseer, or Fateweaver, or anything lame. As well as giving hell to GK and Daemon summoners, or anything with Psykers whatsoever.
The best delivery for this is on a Haemonculi in a deepstriking Venom. 160 points gets you a Haemonculi, a squad of Wracks as troops to unlock the Venom, and completely satisifies the Allied Detachment FOC.
Pretty damn cheap for the utility/cover/protection-against-dicks it adds, just build the rest of the list how you normally would. There is some other cool utility items he can take and also use in the same turn, including a template that ignores wound allocations and also removes models based on an individual toughness test for each model beneath the template, no saves allowed (15 pts), which is absolutely awesome and probably 100% worth it as well. 2++ rerollable crowd will not like.
This is an ally that is NOT gimmicky at all. Chances are it's going to be worth its points regardless of whether they have psykers or not. That Shattershard will absolutely ace things in a T3 meta. Taking the Haemonculi in a unit of 9 Warriors instead in a Raider brings the entirety of the allied detachment up to 225 pts but allows you to immediately threaten anything not threatened by toughness tests, e.g. a Riptide is getting hit with 19 TL poison shots and a S8 AP2 Lance. Pretty fun.
Torment Grenade Launchers is a Raider upgrade that also adds another -1 LD modifier, but only with 6" range off the Vehicle, so no where near as reliable as scatterless Lictor bubbles or Shadow in The Warp - however it is only 5 measly pts so still worth a mention, and worth taking if you pick a Raider.
This is cheap as hell and can RUIN a lot of competitive lists - Deathleaper Brood not mandatory at all (although Deathleaper himself probably is - 130pts for a great unit, schmeh) I personally like the DL Assassin Brood and the LD bubble is great for this. Also allows you to still run 2 Flyrants.
Since we are having the whole "move through cover" talk on Nids, especially in regards to assault grenades, let me slide in one noobish question real quick, then be done with the topic.
Ravengers. Beasts.
Are beasts I1 when charging through terrain? Were they I1 last edition when doing so?
After that, lets move onto something more productive.
Megamanrocks wrote: Since we are having the whole "move through cover" talk on Nids, especially in regards to assault grenades, let me slide in one noobish question real quick, then be done with the topic.
Ravengers. Beasts.
Are beasts I1 when charging through terrain? Were they I1 last edition when doing so?
After that, lets move onto something more productive.
Yes. All units that assault through difficult terrain strike at I1 unless:
They have frag grenades; or
The unit charged was locked in cc from a previous turn; or
The unit charged had gone to ground.
SHUPPET wrote: Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.
Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.
Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.
That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.
Move through cover removes the -2 to assault penalty, it doesn't remove the "strike at I1" penalty
Ahhhh, I was made a mistake in my reading....if you care to, I explain below where I went wrong.
SHUPPET wrote:It even specifically says it in the entry lol
Thanks for being so helpful and while attempting to clarify where my interpretation was false?
SHUPPET wrote: Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.
Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.
Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.
That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.
Move through cover removes the -2 to assault penalty, it doesn't remove the "strike at I1" penalty
The rules are written below to quell any idea of "technically" or "essentially" when a response comes down. I've seen far too many "lol move through cover gives assault grenades nao!!" posts on the back of "technically" and "essentially". In fact, if the word "technically" or "essentially" ever comes in at any point in your argument, you should probably stop talking.
These are the rules - 7th Edition has been remarkable in that the majority of the rules are crystal clear and in plain language. There is no interpretation required, only comprehension.
Can this get back to discussion of the strengths of Tyranids and Unit strategies instead of turning into a YMDC nightmare?
TL;DR - Move Through Cover does not cover any part of the rules that cover Charging Through Difficult Terrain and Initiative penalty, it does not specify in any place that it negates the penalty to Initiative.
Specifically
Move Through Cover A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rolls an extra D6 when rolling to move through difficult terrain and is not slowed by charging through difficult terrain. In most circumstances, this will mean that, when moving, the unit rolls 3D6 and picks the highest roll. Furthermore, a model with the Move Through Cover special rule automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests.
Assault Phase: Charging Through Difficult Terrain
Bold Part I
If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining its charge range.
Bold Part II
if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1
I don't really get what the hostility is when there's a simple misinterpretation of a rule. Clearly, I was wrong. I didn't intend there a "rules debate" to ensue. I believe that I quoted SHUPPET twice regarding this rule, definitely not enough to derail a thread. As a Tyranid player, I feel that it shouldn't be frowned up to to clarify a question (whether I'm wrong or right) IN THE TYRANID STRATEGY THREAD THAT'S 125 PAGES LONG. What is so paramount in Tyranid strategy and it's evolution that anyone reading this thread at this point doesn't already know?
As I read it again, I was definitely wrong. Sorry to have misled anyone.
I was getting hung up on the "...and is not slowed by charging through difficult terrain." part. For some reason, after I read the first part, I interpreted this as the extent of the bonus to the charge distance. I then assumed (which is where I was wrong to do) the -2 modifier was being mitigated by the extra D6, but not being removed. Based on this false assumption, I read the second part which only could have been specifying any other way the unit is being "slowed" by the terrain. By deductive reason, I interpreted this to mean the initiative penalty was removed.
Thanks for taking the time to explain where I was wrong notbriang. I encourage you and others to have a little bit of patience. Is "internet think" so powerful that moderation is difficult to achieve?
With that said, I don't necessarily believe that much will change for Nids with any of the changes going forward at this point....If anything, we've sunk again to one of lower tier armies (competitively speaking). I still don't mind though. Love the army and will always.
I don't really get what the hostility is when there's a simple misinterpretation of a rule. Clearly, I was wrong. I didn't intend there a "rules debate" to ensue. I believe that I quoted SHUPPET twice regarding this rule, definitely not enough to derail a thread. As a Tyranid player, I feel that it shouldn't be frowned up to to clarify a question (whether I'm wrong or right) IN THE TYRANID STRATEGY THREAD THAT'S 125 PAGES LONG.
well, that's where you'd be wrong. Every single page up to this point has been of the utmost strategic importance. Be more careful next time. You disturbed a very delicate balance of content and strategy.
All jokes aside now, I think the reason people get hostile when people misquote a rule like that, is because often this person is trying to push some cheesy interpretation of the rules forward by leaping a few wording hurdles and not always being fully logical, and as such are not open to explanations of why they are wrong and quickly devolve a good discussion thread into a one-sided selfish debate of how their loose interpretation of the rules is flawed, with the offending party often refusing to listen to reason for his own benefit. Because of this, people were quick to shutdown your rules error as it appeared to me, and likely others, that that's where this was heading. No fault of your own good sir, you seemed quite open to the logical explanation, just so many who have tread before you were not.
I think the worst one of these I saw was a guy who claimed any mention of the word Eldar in his codex, such as army specific rules, also applied to his Dark Eldar allies because they too fell under the classification of "Eldar", being a form of Eldar themselves. When pointed out that this interpretation means he couldn't apply it to his Warwalkers and Vehicles, he claimed that they fell under Eldar in a different category because they were part of the "Eldar" codex. This is the extent people will go to, even to make an already broken combo more powerful.
I'm new to Tyranids, but I see a lot people saying Trygons and Trygon Primes are bad choices. I play with a Trygon Prime and haven't seen any problems with it. It's usually earned back it's points in enemy kills, and I did like the DS Shadows in the Warp into enemy psychers. That's not so much an advantage now though.
I'm curious why the consensus that Trygons and Try Primes are bad choices?
Because fast Shadows is easy, Flyrants get there even quicker. The main reason they suck is even if Mawloc had no entry blast, a Trygon Prime is NOT 100 pts stronger than it.
For the price of two Trygons you can almost get 3 Mawlocs. They are seriously overcosted, the only real benefit is the Weapon Skill as you make up for the attack stat by having an extra model. They also used to be great for 4 smash attacks on the charge and re-rolls to 1s in combat, no loner. Yet there price was not changed to reflect it. All things considered, they suck. They are Pyrovore tier. In fact Pyrovores are better as they don't eat 200 of your points.
^ agreed. Trygon is still my favorite model, but there is no joy in taking him.
I played a 2000pt game yesterday against an Eldar list comprised of
Eldrad
4 Wave Serpents w/Dire avengers, Fire Dragons loaded
1 Falcon (!) w/Pulse Laser and Missiles
Nightspinner
5x2 Jetbikes w/Warlock attached to each
2x Guardian blobs w/Brightlance and Warlocks
I had a hastily thrown together list of
Flyrant w/Reaper and Adrenal Glands
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
2x Carnifex w/Adrenal glands
Tervigon
30 Gants
Hierophant (No upgrades)
Playing Purge the Alien, I felt doomed from the start as I expected my opponent to simply stay away and shoot the entire game. But alas, he got bold and I was able to multi charge several tanks with the Hierophant, destroying them very reliably (of course). My Flyrant never swooped the entire game and became responsible for cutting down Eldrad attached to a Dire Avenger blob as well as another tank, being S8 on the charge w/6 attacks.
Invisibility is hard to deal with, but I did a great job denying the witch. Two of his Warlocks melted their brains with perils. Hierophant ended the game with 1 wound left, having lost his Venomthrope cover early on. I won, with both sides mostly wiped out. I still had a Flyrant and Hierophant, as well as a small group of Gants locked in combat with Fire Dragons. He had the Dragons and a small group of Guardians left alive.
I will say that this is the game where I finally stopped having fun with 40k. I dont mean that Im quitting, just that I've been burnt out with the Tyranid Codex followed by 7th, kind of on bs overload, so Im happily taking a break for a few weeks so I can come back fresh!
I don't really get what the hostility is when there's a simple misinterpretation of a rule. Clearly, I was wrong. I didn't intend there a "rules debate" to ensue. I believe that I quoted SHUPPET twice regarding this rule, definitely not enough to derail a thread. As a Tyranid player, I feel that it shouldn't be frowned up to to clarify a question (whether I'm wrong or right) IN THE TYRANID STRATEGY THREAD THAT'S 125 PAGES LONG.
well, that's where you'd be wrong. Every single page up to this point has been of the utmost strategic importance. Be more careful next time. You disturbed a very delicate balance of content and strategy.
All jokes aside now, I think the reason people get hostile when people misquote a rule like that, is because often this person is trying to push some cheesy interpretation of the rules forward by leaping a few wording hurdles and not always being fully logical, and as such are not open to explanations of why they are wrong and quickly devolve a good discussion thread into a one-sided selfish debate of how their loose interpretation of the rules is flawed, with the offending party often refusing to listen to reason for his own benefit. Because of this, people were quick to shutdown your rules error as it appeared to me, and likely others, that that's where this was heading. No fault of your own good sir, you seemed quite open to the logical explanation, just so many who have tread before you were not.
I think the worst one of these I saw was a guy who claimed any mention of the word Eldar in his codex, such as army specific rules, also applied to his Dark Eldar allies because they too fell under the classification of "Eldar", being a form of Eldar themselves. When pointed out that this interpretation means he couldn't apply it to his Warwalkers and Vehicles, he claimed that they fell under Eldar in a different category because they were part of the "Eldar" codex. This is the extent people will go to, even to make an already broken combo more powerful.
Thank you for helping me understand SHUPPET! I had never intended to take advantage of the rule, and as many of our fellow Nid players, I long for my Genestealers to be threatening again. I think my underlying issue with reading that rule was that I was so excited for Genestealers to be half decent again.....but alas.....I was wrong. The other reason I was so excited was because I would like to start perfecting my tournament list for a tournament several months away. Here's what it looked like (and you can see why I got over excited about move through cover):
The whole concept behind this list is to provide psychic support while playing the psychic power "poker game". In theory, by having Zoanthropes to act as warp charge batteries, the Flrant's should be able to cast important powers halfway reliably. If the opponent makes the mistake in attempting to deny too many of these, I then can use the Broodlords to cast The Horror on front line units. The reason I was so excited about my understanding of Move through Cover was that I could cast The Horror on one unit, then charge another without sacrificing too much.
This concept remains relatively unchanged, however. I still can follow through with most of the idea, but I'd need to charge the units that fail The Horror. Additionally, the synergy of SitW and The Horror against psychic units can be utterly disastrous since most psykers have LD10 unless they are also immune to being pinned.
Likewise, I can attempt to cast The Horror first, before important psychic powers like Catalyst, Onslaught, and psychic scream and if the opponent attempts to dispel The Horror, there's an increased chance that I'll succeed with the others.
Lastly, as I understand it, a Broodlord also gains Dominion now-a-days. This can be clutch if you infiltrate your unit into a ruin at about the 1/2 point. If they get shot at, feel free to go to ground for a 2+ cover save. The next psychic phase, simply cast Dominion to become fearless and hop back up and act normally. With Fleet and Move through Cover, if your opponent is unsuspecting, you can catch him with his pants down...so to speak.
For starters, completely understandable that you wanted Genestealers to work. I think there is not a Tyranid player to pick up the dice who doesn't love Genestealers.
The broodlord strategy is definitely very cool. Now we may not have frags, but the good thing is, we have something situationally better - more Pinning than any other army, pinning which has just been buffed in 7th to not only do the usual "force snapshots next turn + grant frag grenades to any models charging the unit" but it also now denies overwatch (which can be big). Unfortunately does not affect Fearless units (Space Marines can be pinned however as their rule is different).
Combined with the fact that Living Artillery is (IMO) an auto-take no matter how I build, it isn't too hard to spam Pinning - just for reference, the formation allows you to take a Warrior squad with Cannon + Exocrine + 3man Biovore squad outside of the FOC, and grants them all TWIN-LINKED and PINNING to any blasts weapons while in Synapse range of the Warriors. This is amazing. Take 2 of these + Broodlords, you will be able to pin anything not Fearless, and have frags when you assault with stealers. Add in our LD manipulating abilities like Shadow in the Warp (only Psykers), Deathleaper (only indepent characters, quite possibly means they are Fearless tho), and his Assassins Brood (5 individual Lictors each with a -1 LD bubble, to ANYTHING), and you will force a lot of pins. There is a pretty sizeable investment required to make Stealers work though, so after this just take a lot of them lol. Infiltrating 1 or two with the Broodlord trick works. Running them up behind a Termagant screen with a Venom behind them probably a good option for the rest. Take something to deal with Heavy Armor (we don't have much) Carnifexe's and eGrubs Flyrants always good.
Keep in mind, this is my opinion on how to make 'Stealers work. Everyone else will probably just tell you they suck. They really aren't that bad a combat unit though, its just getting them there and letting them use that initiative. We have all the tools for it, just takes a pretty focused list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would like to see how it goes vs competitive Tau, with 6 pinning large blasts and a few Powers to keep the big shooters pinned and forced to fire snapshots until the tide of infiltrating Genestealers gets there turn 2 and starts wreaking havoc. WITH their full Initiative too.
SHUPPET wrote: For starters, completely understandable that you wanted Genestealers to work. I think there is not a Tyranid player to pick up the dice who doesn't love Genestealers.
The broodlord strategy is definitely very cool. Now we may not have frags, but the good thing is, we have something situationally better - more Pinning than any other army, pinning which has just been buffed in 7th to not only do the usual "force snapshots next turn + grant frag grenades to any models charging the unit" but it also now denies overwatch (which can be big). Unfortunately does not affect Fearless units (Space Marines can be pinned however as their rule is different).
Combined with the fact that Living Artillery is (IMO) an auto-take no matter how I build, it isn't too hard to spam Pinning - just for reference, the formation allows you to take a Warrior squad with Cannon + Exocrine + 3man Biovore squad outside of the FOC, and grants them all TWIN-LINKED and PINNING to any blasts weapons while in Synapse range of the Warriors. This is amazing. Take 2 of these + Broodlords, you will be able to pin anything not Fearless, and have frags when you assault with stealers. Add in our LD manipulating abilities like Shadow in the Warp (only Psykers), Deathleaper (only indepent characters, quite possibly means they are Fearless tho), and his Assassins Brood (5 individual Lictors each with a -1 LD bubble, to ANYTHING), and you will force a lot of pins. There is a pretty sizeable investment required to make Stealers work though, so after this just take a lot of them lol. Infiltrating 1 or two with the Broodlord trick works. Running them up behind a Termagant screen with a Venom behind them probably a good option for the rest. Take something to deal with Heavy Armor (we don't have much) Carnifexe's and eGrubs Flyrants always good.
Keep in mind, this is my opinion on how to make 'Stealers work. Everyone else will probably just tell you they suck. They really aren't that bad a combat unit though, its just getting them there and letting them use that initiative. We have all the tools for it, just takes a pretty focused list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would like to see how it goes vs competitive Tau, with 6 pinning large blasts and a few Powers to keep the big shooters pinned and forced to fire snapshots until the tide of infiltrating Genestealers gets there turn 2 and starts wreaking havoc. WITH their full Initiative too.
This should work pretty well all things considered, and it will be so unconventional that the surprise factor will work to your advantage.
Two minimum-sized squads of Warriors, also with Barbed Stranglers for troops, couple of flying Tyrants for general MVP work, and you're good to go.
Yeah there is a lot of Synergy. We won't have the points to do it all, that was just a general outline of units to build with. Flyrants are much less a staple in this list as the only thing with Instinctive Behaviour is the Exocrine and Biovores, who are being babysat by a squad of Warriors anyway. You literally need Synapse nowhere else. If you want a fast Shadow in the warp, a couple of squads of Shrikes are cheaper than even a single Flyrants, bring cheap Stranglethorns, and help out far more in the assault saturation with Stealers, and assault benefit largely from pinning. Mobile eGrubs is probably the main reason to take Flyrants, but I think the points made for in Dakkafex's will be better. Points are really tight on a list like this, Stealers themselves are V expensive.
I'll probably do something like this next chance I get:
That's 50 Stealers, and 5 pinning large blasts. Many different ways to do it though I guess, I just like that safety net that 2 Fexes bring. Flyrants work, 2x Living Artillery Formations work, theres no real precedent for this kind of thing lol.
Also you can still do the Infiltrate + GtG Stealer trick for 4+ cover up to over 24" from your DZ, the Shrikes will be in Synapse range turn 1.
SHUPPET wrote: Yeah there is a lot of Synergy. We won't have the points to do it all, that was just a general outline of units to build with. Flyrants are much less a staple in this list as the only thing with Instinctive Behaviour is the Exocrine and Biovores, who are being babysat by a squad of Warriors anyway. You literally need Synapse nowhere else. If you want a fast Shadow in the warp, a couple of squads of Shrikes are cheaper than even a single Flyrants, bring cheap Stranglethorns, and help out far more in the assault saturation with Stealers, and assault benefit largely from pinning. Mobile eGrubs is probably the main reason to take Flyrants, but I think the points made for in Dakkafex's will be better. Points are really tight on a list like this, Stealers themselves are V expensive.
I'll probably do something like this next chance I get:
That's 50 Stealers, and 5 pinning large blasts. Many different ways to do it though I guess, I just like that safety net that 2 Fexes bring. Flyrants work, 2x Living Artillery Formations work, theres no real precedent for this kind of thing lol.
Also you can still do the Infiltrate + GtG Stealer trick for 4+ cover up to over 24" from your DZ, the Shrikes will be in Synapse range turn 1.
I would rip all the stealers out of the main list and move them in to 1 or 2 Manufactorum stealers formations. Split the guants in to 15 brood. Other than that, Iike the list. Might even run a mix of Hunting pack and Manufactorum to get a broodlord in the mix. Between the 2 Formations you get some nice buffs for the broods at now cost.
I have a very, very low opinion of Genesteelers. They are so outrageously overcosted. If you want assaulty things you should be looking at Raveners, Shrikes or Hormagaunts.
They need 2 wounds or a 40% points reduction to be viable.
tag8833 wrote: I have a very, very low opinion of Genesteelers. They are so outrageously overcosted. If you want assaulty things you should be looking at Raveners, Shrikes or Hormagaunts.
They need 2 wounds or a 40% points reduction to be viable.
I am happy for them to be priced as they are, I just want them to either A) be able to make combat with little casualties or B) be so hard hitting that even if only 4-5 of them survive they can wipe out a 10 strong TAC squad reliably.
They really should be able to assault out of hiding... if Anything else in the game should be able to do this Stealers are it!
SHUPPET wrote:Yeah there is a lot of Synergy. We won't have the points to do it all, that was just a general outline of units to build with. Flyrants are much less a staple in this list as the only thing with Instinctive Behaviour is the Exocrine and Biovores, who are being babysat by a squad of Warriors anyway. You literally need Synapse nowhere else. If you want a fast Shadow in the warp, a couple of squads of Shrikes are cheaper than even a single Flyrants, bring cheap Stranglethorns, and help out far more in the assault saturation with Stealers, and assault benefit largely from pinning. Mobile eGrubs is probably the main reason to take Flyrants, but I think the points made for in Dakkafex's will be better. Points are really tight on a list like this, Stealers themselves are V expensive.
I'll probably do something like this next chance I get:
That's 50 Stealers, and 5 pinning large blasts. Many different ways to do it though I guess, I just like that safety net that 2 Fexes bring. Flyrants work, 2x Living Artillery Formations work, theres no real precedent for this kind of thing lol.
Also you can still do the Infiltrate + GtG Stealer trick for 4+ cover up to over 24" from your DZ, the Shrikes will be in Synapse range turn 1.
Looks super fun. Definitely would throw off opponents expecting the Skyblight builds that have been deemed "more competitive".
barnowl wrote:
Spoiler:
SHUPPET wrote: Yeah there is a lot of Synergy. We won't have the points to do it all, that was just a general outline of units to build with. Flyrants are much less a staple in this list as the only thing with Instinctive Behaviour is the Exocrine and Biovores, who are being babysat by a squad of Warriors anyway. You literally need Synapse nowhere else. If you want a fast Shadow in the warp, a couple of squads of Shrikes are cheaper than even a single Flyrants, bring cheap Stranglethorns, and help out far more in the assault saturation with Stealers, and assault benefit largely from pinning. Mobile eGrubs is probably the main reason to take Flyrants, but I think the points made for in Dakkafex's will be better. Points are really tight on a list like this, Stealers themselves are V expensive.
I'll probably do something like this next chance I get:
That's 50 Stealers, and 5 pinning large blasts. Many different ways to do it though I guess, I just like that safety net that 2 Fexes bring. Flyrants work, 2x Living Artillery Formations work, theres no real precedent for this kind of thing lol.
Also you can still do the Infiltrate + GtG Stealer trick for 4+ cover up to over 24" from your DZ, the Shrikes will be in Synapse range turn 1.
I would rip all the stealers out of the main list and move them in to 1 or 2 Manufactorum stealers formations. Split the guants in to 15 brood. Other than that, Iike the list. Might even run a mix of Hunting pack and Manufactorum to get a broodlord in the mix. Between the 2 Formations you get some nice buffs for the broods at now cost.
The largest issue with doing that is if you're planning on playing tournaments (to each their own) that will only allow armies with two sources for your detachments or if you want to play strictly Battle-Forged: You don't have a Primary detachment for your force. Objective Secured is so crucial this edition you should take it when you can. By taking multiple formations in the way of Living artillery node and Manufactorum stealer formations you give up objective secured....
SHUPPET wrote:Last dex they could
Wait do you mean those Ymgarl ones that EVERYONE played with previously?**Satire** If so, those were exactly what Genestealers should be in the first place.....I would gladly pay 23 ppm for a unit that can assault from reserves, let alone the ability to morph.....
The Stealer formation are definitely good, but as said - I believe most most tourneys allow only 1 primary, 1 ally, and 1 formation. This means you are losing pinning for slightly better genestealers, who then have to strike last against enemies in terrain.
3x Bivores with twin-linked Pinning Ignore Cover Blasts will really open you up some targets. Remember not everything is going to be in area terrain, hopefully 5 Pinning Blasts is enough, only need to get 1 pin off on a unit you are going to assault that are in cover. Hopefully thats enough pinning. Playtesting will tell.
Comparing Genestealers to a similar CC unit: Chaos Space Marines. Here is the tradeoff.
Mark of Slaanesh CSM at 15 ppm. 3 attacks on the charge, I5, 3+ save, Boltpistol Assault Gun. Can drop that point of iniative from Mark of Slaanesh for a Mark of Khorne, giving it 4 attacks on the charge, same price. Can take transports. Comes naturally with assault grenades. Champ can take a Powerfist.
Genestealers at 14 ppm 3 attacks on the charge, I6, 4+ save, no guns, Rending on CC attacks, Infiltrate. Can take Venomthrope cover saves. Can manipulate Go to Ground for even bigger cover saves.
Now, that may make them read like Genestealers are just worse vanilla CSM, but when you actually apply how these differences play out, I think it puts us in front as a dedicated assault unit. Even vs properly kitted combat units (Spwan and Bikers) they are paying much extra to be dedicated to combat, we match their skill in numbers. I think the key to making 'Stealers work is playing off our advantages. Making sure they always have a cover save is key. Abusing GtG and Venomthrope is also crucial when its possible (Venomthrope probably not possible if Infiltrating) fly Shrikes into range during movement phase to get them back up, then move the Stealers back out of Synapse, GtG again. Doing this it's very possible to give them a 2+ cover save, in wide open ground. Marines have a 3+ naturally, but when you take into account how often they get to take these saves... to put in another light Tau has less "ignore cover" than it does AP2 for example. Infiltrate can make up for no Rhinos. It guarantees a second turn assault, which is good vs Gunlines, who are the biggest threat to this style of army. Oh and its free 10 Genestealers with Rending actually puts out 20% more AP2 wounds than 1 sergeant with a Fist does in a 10 man squad (with a Mark of Khorne its exactly the same amount) - the downside to this is of course that you can't use a hidden fist tactic - the plus side is, that we are the freaking swarm and we don't care about that, kill 1 of us and the rest all still have rending. We also can't lose our "powerfist" to a hostile challenge. Also, its free
Of course, without I6, they are just no good. They lose the cover save in combat, and need to be striking first to make up for it. Each Genestealer that dies before making its attacks is a bad thing. You also don't want to be GETTING assaulted, and if you do have to leave yourself in a position where you could get assaulted, try to keep a Venomthrope near, he guarantees your I6 and takes away their charge attack bonus. More than 1 Venomthrope per list is probably a good thing here. Basically, make sure you get that Initiative when it is relevant - if you can't get a pin on your main target, and it's easier to just lock yourself in combat with something else, just do that, at least you don't get tore up for nothing (hopefully). Throwing yourself into their biggest threat, at Initiative 1, when you have an I6, is probably a bad idea. Weaker willed opponents (Tau players ) may even feel forced to join the assault to help out their unit, giving you your I6, and letting you subsequently swarm them with Genestealers (if they do this you'll probably win). Relying on playmistakes is never a good thing of course, but when it works ~ In general you just have to pick and choose targets. Throwing Termagants in to tarpit something a turn before you strike with Stealers is also a good idea. I think Genestealers are a HARD unit to use right, and require a dedicated army list ("Cult" if you will ) which is why people haven't had much luck with them, but they are not necessarily bad as those people think. I think they could actually be quite good, spammed.
Sorry about the in depth wall of maybe less than relevant info to some. This is just me sort of sharing my thought process on making Stealers work, and what sort of power level to expect from them while playing them. As the topic seems to have interested a couple of people.
The Stealer formation are definitely good, but as said - I believe most most tourneys allow only 1 primary, 1 ally, and 1 formation. This means you are losing pinning for slightly better genestealers, who then have to strike last against enemies in terrain.
3x Bivores with twin-linked Pinning Ignore Cover Blasts will really open you up some targets. Remember not everything is going to be in area terrain, hopefully 5 Pinning Blasts is enough, only need to get 1 pin off on a unit you are going to assault that are in cover. Hopefully thats enough pinning. Playtesting will tell.
Comparing Genestealers to a similar CC unit: Chaos Space Marines. Here is the tradeoff.
Mark of Slaanesh CSM at 15 ppm. 3 attacks on the charge, I5, 3+ save, Boltpistol Assault Gun. Can drop that point of iniative from Mark of Slaanesh for a Mark of Khorne, giving it 4 attacks on the charge, same price. Can take transports. Comes naturally with assault grenades. Champ can take a Powerfist.
Genestealers at 14 ppm 3 attacks on the charge, I6, 4+ save, no guns, Rending on CC attacks, Infiltrate. Can take Venomthrope cover saves. Can manipulate Go to Ground for even bigger cover saves.
Now, that may make them read like Genestealers are just worse vanilla CSM, but when you actually apply how these differences play out, I think it puts us in front as a dedicated assault unit. Even vs properly kitted combat units (Spwan and Bikers) they are paying much extra to be dedicated to combat, we match their skill in numbers. I think the key to making 'Stealers work is playing off our advantages. Making sure they always have a cover save is key. Abusing GtG and Venomthrope is also crucial when its possible (Venomthrope probably not possible if Infiltrating) fly Shrikes into range during movement phase to get them back up, then move the Stealers back out of Synapse, GtG again. Doing this it's very possible to give them a 2+ cover save, in wide open ground. Marines have a 3+ naturally, but when you take into account how often they get to take these saves... to put in another light Tau has less "ignore cover" than it does AP2 for example. Infiltrate can make up for no Rhinos. It guarantees a second turn assault, which is good vs Gunlines, who are the biggest threat to this style of army. Oh and its free 10 Genestealers with Rending actually puts out 20% more AP2 wounds than 1 sergeant with a Fist does in a 10 man squad (with a Mark of Khorne its exactly the same amount) - the downside to this is of course that you can't use a hidden fist tactic - the plus side is, that we are the freaking swarm and we don't care about that, kill 1 of us and the rest all still have rending. We also can't lose our "powerfist" to a hostile challenge. Also, its free
Of course, without I6, they are just no good. They lose the cover save in combat, and need to be striking first to make up for it. Each Genestealer that dies before making its attacks is a bad thing. You also don't want to be GETTING assaulted, and if you do have to leave yourself in a position where you could get assaulted, try to keep a Venomthrope near, he guarantees your I6 and takes away their charge attack bonus. More than 1 Venomthrope per list is probably a good thing here. Basically, make sure you get that Initiative when it is relevant - if you can't get a pin on your main target, and it's easier to just lock yourself in combat with something else, just do that, at least you don't get tore up for nothing (hopefully). Throwing yourself into their biggest threat, at Initiative 1, when you have an I6, is probably a bad idea. Weaker willed opponents (Tau players ) may even feel forced to join the assault to help out their unit, giving you your I6, and letting you subsequently swarm them with Genestealers (if they do this you'll probably win). Relying on playmistakes is never a good thing of course, but when it works ~ In general you just have to pick and choose targets. Throwing Termagants in to tarpit something a turn before you strike with Stealers is also a good idea. I think Genestealers are a HARD unit to use right, and require a dedicated army list ("Cult" if you will ) which is why people haven't had much luck with them, but they are not necessarily bad as those people think. I think they could actually be quite good, spammed.
Sorry about the in depth wall of maybe less than relevant info to some. This is just me sort of sharing my thought process on making Stealers work, and what sort of power level to expect from them while playing them. As the topic seems to have interested a couple of people.
There is also the Dominion-Broodlord strategy with Genestealers too, if your local group allows Broodlords to access Dominion. Even more fun if your group goes with the "cast as many powers as you have" interpretation of the pstchic rules as well, because then you can throw The Horror into the mix from your Broodlord before you assault.
I would rip all the stealers out of the main list and move them in to 1 or 2 Manufactorum stealers formations. Split the guants in to 15 brood. Other than that, Iike the list. Might even run a mix of Hunting pack and Manufactorum to get a broodlord in the mix. Between the 2 Formations you get some nice buffs for the broods at now cost.
The largest issue with doing that is if you're planning on playing tournaments (to each their own) that will only allow armies with two sources for your detachments or if you want to play strictly Battle-Forged: You don't have a Primary detachment for your force. Objective Secured is so crucial this edition you should take it when you can. By taking multiple formations in the way of Living artillery node and Manufactorum stealer formations you give up objective secured....
What I suggested is still battleforged, does have a primary(CAD), and does have OS Termies. Ture I am using 2 codex supplements. But as an FYI, you are not requried to use the CAD for Battleforged, and any Detachment or Fromation can be your Primary.
The trouble when including the BL is that it nearly doubles the base cost of a unit of Genestealers, but it doesn't double the survivability or damage output.
When bringing a BL, you typically do so in order to do 1 of a few things:
1) To challenge out other characters
2) To remove the reliance on Synapse to get them back up after G2G
3) Warp Charge battery + one of the previous points
4) Additional pinning opportunities and lastly
5) To soak up bolter fire
The problem with all of these options is that Tyranids more often than not, need bodies over upgrades. If you consider the BL an upgrade, it goes against this "rule".
I would totally have a different attitude if the BL still had the Hypnotic Gaze from the previous dex. Then you would be an IC assassin. Just Challenge, then gaze him. IC dead man.
Anyways, BL definitely has it's place, but I feel like adding Genestealers will be better for anyone who runs them.
barnowl wrote:
What I suggested is still battleforged, does have a primary(CAD), and does have OS Termies. Ture I am using 2 codex supplements. But as an FYI, you are not requried to use the CAD for Battleforged, and any Detachment or Fromation can be your Primary.
Huh, I was unaware that you could use any detachment as your primary and still be Battleforged....I really need to read that part over again.
I think you just nailed how I feel about the Broodlord Roxor. I don't number 5 really applies tho, as taking him makes you soak up LESS bolter fire than just taking 4 more stealers.
You really don't want to be challenging with him either very often I feel, I mean when is this going to be better than having 4 more 'Stealers aka 7 more attacks on the charge. No, I think the only relevant bonus to taking him is the GtG tricks, while S5 + the extra chance at pinning (an extremely unreliable one) and the 1 Warp Charge are just small bonuses to help make up for the fact that you just lost a bunch of attacks.
I'd rather just take Shrikes for GtG tricks (also far more reliable than attempting to cast Dominion, can and WILL be denied as it's the most relevant Power you will cast that turn), and they can take a 10 pt Pinning Large Blast weapon which is probably just as reliable or more so than "the Horror".
foto69man wrote: Any advice against a Militarium Tempestus army? 1500pts, and pretty much Vendettas filled with Stormtroopers, and then a kitted out command squad.
I'd look at Tyranofex,Adrenal,Thorax Hive (Electro bugs) that thing murders Troops like crazy. If you can swing a Crone, you will likely get good use out of it.
I'd want plenty more Gaunts, but that is a "style" thing. I like splashing Devilgaunts into a unit of Spine/Vanilla gaunts, so you take take losses without losing the Devils. If you have the Tyranofex glued, I'd still suggest adding in a Thorax Hive.
Winged Tyrant 240?
Zoey Brood: x2 100
Troops; Warrior Brood, x3, Cannon (Strangle, for the Pin checks) 100
Troops: Termigants x10+5 Devils 80
Troops: as above 80
Troops: x20 Termigants 80
Troops: Hormigaunts, x15 Toxic 120
Heavy: Tyranofex, Adrenal, Thorax Hive 200
Thats about a 1000 isn't? adding 500 should be easy. Add Veno, some more Devils, some more Hormies...a Carnifex or two? Done.
SHUPPET wrote: Comparing Genestealers to a similar CC unit: Chaos Space Marines. Here is the tradeoff...
There is so much wrong with this, but let me stick to the highlights.
SHUPPET wrote: Genestealers at 14 ppm 3 attacks on the charge, I6, 4+ save, no guns, Rending on CC attacks, Infiltrate. Can take Venomthrope cover saves. Can manipulate Go to Ground for even bigger cover saves.
1) When did Genestealers get 4+ saves? Mine have 5+. 2) Its a good thing that no other unit has tactics like your go to ground trick.
SHUPPET wrote: I think the key to making 'Stealers work is playing off our advantages. Making sure they always have a cover save is key. Abusing GtG and Venomthrope is also crucial when its possible (Venomthrope probably not possible if Infiltrating) fly Shrikes into range during movement phase to get them back up, then move the Stealers back out of Synapse, GtG again. Doing this it's very possible to give them a 2+ cover save, in wide open ground.
1) So Genestealers are good so long as they walk across the board with a minimum of 135 points of support units moved in just the perfect way. I'm sure the enemy will leave us alone to execute this foolproof plan. 2) GTG = 6+ Shrouded is 2 better. That means a 4+ in open ground. I assume you get to a 2+ by added yet another support unit to bubblewrap them.
SHUPPET wrote: 10 Genestealers with Rending actually puts out 20% more AP2 wounds than 1 sergeant with a Fist does in a 10 man squad (with a Mark of Khorne its exactly the same amount) - the downside to this is of course that you can't use a hidden fist tactic - the plus side is, that we are the freaking swarm and we don't care about that, kill 1 of us and the rest all still have rending.
1) I don't think that is really a plus at all. "We can't do something useful, on the other hand we don't care?". Especially when we fail 2 saves for every one of theirs. 2) The powerfist isn't just about AP:2. It gives them an ability to deal with vehicles. As do Grenades. 3) The powerfist isn't the only option. There is a wide selection of wargear for CSM. Not so for Tyranids.
I think Genestealers are a HARD unit to use right, and require a dedicated army list ("Cult" if you will ) which is why people haven't had much luck with them, but they are not necessarily bad as those people think. I think they could actually be quite good, spammed.
They die like Hormagaunts, and aren't as fast. You can take 3 Hormagaunts for every Genestealer. Infiltrate takes them out of range of our support units, and yet their limitations require support to be effective. They have terrible wargear options, and have a high enemy target priority. They can't match up with other assault units point for point, because other assault units are more survivable, so they have to pick on smaller / weaker units.
GeneStealers have fun fluff, and are super cheap on Ebay. Use them for these reasons. They are not a sound tactical investment, and if you are trying to build the most tactically sound list, you can leave them at home.
Am I missing something with the go to ground broodlord strategy? that may have worked in 6th but with the psychic phase happening after movement your brood lord isn't going to cast dominion until after the genestealers have been sitting there twiddling their thumbs instead of moving.
Sure you can charge but I anyone who just left their unit sitting in charge range by the genestealer unit deserves whatever they get.
4+ save was a typo (its right next to the 5 on my keyboard) :(
Nobody is saying they are going to be tactically amazing. Just that they aren't as bad as you might think.
I did try and avoid someone making a big post as to all the ways Genestealers are bad by saying:
SHUPPET wrote: This is just me sort of sharing my thought process on making Stealers work, and what sort of power level to expect from them while playing them. As the topic seems to have interested a couple of people.
The comparison to CSM Marine is a pretty good one in terms of power level imo, but it was just off the top of my head, and if you can contribute by finding a better one (as I'm no doubt sure there is some) feel free to do so.
Just saying that "everything is so wrong" because it requires support units like Venom's and a Gant screen (which I did mention, did include in my list, and did say that the list had to be pretty dedicated and focused towards making them work) is just being negative un-necessarily. Like it or not they do tear it up in CC better than 2.8 Gaunts do if the Genestealers get their Initiative. They can't run as fast but infiltrate secures turn 2 assault regardless.
Genestealers can be ok. You don't like them, that's ok as well. They are fun+cool and some of us are going to use them regardless of how competitive they are, so we are discussing how to use them to the best of their abilities. We'd be silly if we said that it would work all the time, but no sillier than you saying it will never at all.
BeeCee wrote: Am I missing something with the go to ground broodlord strategy? that may have worked in 6th but with the psychic phase happening after movement your brood lord isn't going to cast dominion until after the genestealers have been sitting there twiddling their thumbs instead of moving.
Sure you can charge but I anyone who just left their unit sitting in charge range by the genestealer unit deserves whatever they get.
With Manufactorum, you can start in side 6" so it is still a real threat for turn 1 charges. And since you will have an 18" possible charge, even going in deep mid game and GTG in side 6" of a target, the opponent either has to deal with you, forgo shooting to get out of range or risk getting hammered. It is amazing how much firepower a gtg brood in ruins can survive to be honest.
I actually made a thread recently in the Background Catergory discussing how the hell can Deathleaper be such an efficient assassin if he has to rely on Instinctive Behaviour (even in the fluff they do, they just never really connected the dots here and explained it.) It's stupid.
I have a question about how Zoanthropes broods work in 7th ed...If I have 3 thropes in a brood, how many extra psychic powers can I roll up for them?
My mate and I decided that they are a brotherhood with a psyker level of 2 as per codex and rolled up one extra power. It seems fair to me, but I'd just like to check in and see if we played it wrong.
BlaxicanX wrote: Decided to try dabbling in the Tyranids codex today, and does anyone else find it soul-crushing that Lictors require synapse?
I was dumb-struck when I saw that.
They are leadership 10 and have Lurk. That's a 1/12 chance of failing an IB check, and then even if you do fail it's still only 1/2 chance of fleeing for a turn (1/2 chance of having to move into cover instead).
I use Death Leaper's Assassin Brood quite a bit, and I can honestly say that IB is not a problem for them (especially since they normally end up in assault by turn 2/3 anyway).
Sure, once in a blue moon your Lictor will fail IB, run away and mess up something cool, but it's not common by any stretch of the imagination. Plus, you can do IB after you roll for Reserves so if (like me) you enjoy combining DLAB with Mawlocs then you're fine regardless.
mekugi wrote: I have a question about how Zoanthropes broods work in 7th ed...If I have 3 thropes in a brood, how many extra psychic powers can I roll up for them?
My mate and I decided that they are a brotherhood with a psyker level of 2 as per codex and rolled up one extra power. It seems fair to me, but I'd just like to check in and see if we played it wrong.
You played them correctly. Tyranid Codex, page 45, "A Zoanthrope brood follows all the rules for Brotherhood of Psykers except that the unit has a Mastery Level of 2."
So they get Warp Blast, a roll on the Tyranid Psychic Table and Dominion.
Keep in mind that you can cast Warp Blast once, and must choose either Blast or Lance, and then you fire a numbr of shots equal to the number of Zoanthropes in the brood. Only one Psychic Test for the whole lot.
The power you roll for, you only cast once regardless of how many Zoanthropes are in the brood.
Depending on how your gaming group interprets the number of powers a Psyker can use per turn, you could conceivably fire off an Assault 3 Lance, the random power and also Dominion all in one turn. They do only generate two extra dice though, regardless of how many Zoanthropes you bring in the brood.
Xyptc wrote: You played them correctly. Tyranid Codex, page 45, "A Zoanthrope brood follows all the rules for Brotherhood of Psykers except that the unit has a Mastery Level of 2."
So they get Warp Blast, a roll on the Tyranid Psychic Table and Dominion.
Keep in mind that you can cast Warp Blast once, and must choose either Blast or Lance, and then you fire a numbr of shots equal to the number of Zoanthropes in the brood. Only one Psychic Test for the whole lot.
The power you roll for, you only cast once regardless of how many Zoanthropes are in the brood.
Depending on how your gaming group interprets the number of powers a Psyker can use per turn, you could conceivably fire off an Assault 3 Lance, the random power and also Dominion all in one turn. They do only generate two extra dice though, regardless of how many Zoanthropes you bring in the brood.
Sweet, thanks for that! I don't think I can see myself fielding more than 2 Zoans in a brood from now on, tho for the first time they actually did some dmg vs armour for me today. I've allways been a bit stumped by their low BS and then an opponents cover save...I'm only new to 6/7th from 2nd ed... I wish witchfire would auto hit! or at least ignore cover.
BeeCee wrote:Am I missing something with the go to ground broodlord strategy? that may have worked in 6th but with the psychic phase happening after movement your brood lord isn't going to cast dominion until after the genestealers have been sitting there twiddling their thumbs instead of moving.
Sure you can charge but I anyone who just left their unit sitting in charge range by the genestealer unit deserves whatever they get.
Yes, it's not a strategy that is going to be game breaking in most cases regarding getting them into assault. However, the go to ground strategy doesn't have to specifically result in a successful charge. With the change in edition, and significant changes to missions, Genestealers can very effectively claim objectives while maintaining resiliency to most firepower when coupled with a Broodlord.
With 7th Edition, claiming objectives happens both at the end of your turn and at the end of the game. Since you can reliably infiltrate Genestealers to at least 18" away from the enemy you can rely less on their weak armor save. With smart positioning, you can claim objectives you otherwise couldn't with other models on the turf. Let alone force your opponent to deal with them.
Imagine this scenario: A unit of 8 Genestealers and Broodlord infiltrate 18" away from the enemy and Tyranids have first turn. You get 6" of free movement and an average of 5" run. You can either ram them down your opponent's throat (in cover) and claim an objective that only Shrikes, Raveners, or hormagaunts could reliably reach. [Lets be honest, how often do you see any of those units?] Now, since you're likely ~12" away from your opponents front line AND you're claiming an objective you force your opponent to deal with them. Okay fine, lets say he commits to remove them from the objective. Normally, it wouldn't take much. 2 bolter shots to kill a Genestealer. BUT if you've got AT least a 5+ Cv it takes 3. Now, go to ground. Now it takes 5. That's with the modified 3+ Cv. [Even better in ruins which are very prevalent in the meta.] Now your unit of Genestealers are tanking 40+ bolter equivalent firepower without including the Broodlord into that equation.
I bet you that most opponents wouldn't want to commit that type of effort. I'd also bet that after the first unit that fires on them (that forces them to g2g) most opponents would consider the threat neutralized for them to deal with later. This is where getting them back up will be great. If your opponent needs to enter their charge range and you successfully manage to charge, you have used them to attain their purpose. They don't need to kill off the other unit, just tie it up for a turn, do some damage. Maybe the Broodlord helps you win combat. All that is well and good. But remember what they've done. They've claimed an objective already. Win. They've sucked up a good amount of firepower. Win. Even if they haven't taken too much firepower, and your opponent forces you to g2g with them, you still have a bubble in which your opponent takes a risk entering. Win.
What I'm getting at, is it will require your opponent significantly more commitment to remove a unit of Genestealers with a Broodlord which I guarantee you that he'd rather be committing elsewhere. They may not be what they once were in the days of Turn 2 outflanking charges. They sure do have a role that can make them work.
Sweet, thanks for that! I don't think I can see myself fielding more than 2 Zoans in a brood from now on, tho for the first time they actually did some dmg vs armour for me today. I've allways been a bit stumped by their low BS and then an opponents cover save...I'm only new to 6/7th from 2nd ed... I wish witchfire would auto hit! or at least ignore cover.
They have the best bs in the codex. The only other units with 4 are all HQ.
They are certainly not the most reliable form of anti-tank that we have. But then, what is?
Tyrants handle everything up to AV12 reasonably well.
Crones, anything with EGrubs and to a certain extent Hive Guard can strip HP from AV13/14.
Carnifexes are good if you can get them close, and CC Carnifexes absolutely annihilate tanks.. if you can get them there.
Where does this leave Zoanthropes? Well, as you mention they are not to be trusted as your only form of anti-tank. However, consider that they also:
- are a small, easy-to-hide platform with a 3++
- generate Synapse (and come with Dominion)
- generate Shadows
- come with a third power
- double up as an anti-3+ blast thrower
- generate 2 WC to battery your Hive Tyrants if need be
All of this adds up to Zoanthropes being an amazing support unit, for a mere 50 points. I might even advise against broods of 2. Simply taking a lone Zoanthrope gives you all of the above; the only loss is a single shot of Warp Blast/Lance.
I don't think that gaining a single shot is worth the 50 points. Now, taking two broods of 1 on the other hand...
Psychological note: Mentioning to your opponent that your Zoanthrope has a S10 AP2 Lance when it approaches his Land Raider can often lead to disproportionate firepower being directed at the floating brain, leaving your other beasts free to run amok.
Maybe this is a question for another thread, but I'm having a hell of a time getting the breeds of warriors (warriors, raveners, shrikes) to work. I realize they are no where near the more viable units in our dex, but their models are the reason I first looked at and fell in love with Tyranids.
Does the hive mind have any helpful tactics for running these beautiful beasties?
Well the optimal build is 3 Warriors with a Barbed Strangler.
I personally use Shrikes all the time in my fast lists...flesh hooks, a few rending claws, and 2 bonesword guys.
Raveners are something that JY2 plays a lot...I tend to use mine for distractions. But the Red Terror can be a menace too. Mine swallowed Calgar whole.
Arrias117 wrote: Maybe this is a question for another thread, but I'm having a hell of a time getting the breeds of warriors (warriors, raveners, shrikes) to work. I realize they are no where near the more viable units in our dex, but their models are the reason I first looked at and fell in love with Tyranids.
Does the hive mind have any helpful tactics for running these beautiful beasties?
Warriors are best used as part of a Formation, or as a minimum 3 with Barbed Strangler. Take them to support, not advance, they are really a backfield only unit. They are good scoring synapse though, and durable with Venomthrope support. Personally, I like to put them on top of a Bastion that has a Venomthrope inside.
Shrikes are just flying warriors. They're good for mobile synapse, but then so are Flyrants. If you aren't using formations, they're better than Warriors as they now score, but make sure they are always, always, in cover. Again, Venomthrope support is nice.
Raveners are a very aggressive unit. Sadly, you need a ton for them to work, and due to cost most people won't buy a ton of them. But, you should deploy a ton of them as far forward as possible, then move them as fast as possible with one or two as a "tail" back into Venomthrope range. Venomthropes are hugely important to their survival, as they really don't care about terrain and so should always be in it. However, Shrikes are almost always going to be better than Raveners as they have very similar stats, but more options and Synapse.
Arrias117 wrote: Maybe this is a question for another thread, but I'm having a hell of a time getting the breeds of warriors (warriors, raveners, shrikes) to work. I realize they are no where near the more viable units in our dex, but their models are the reason I first looked at and fell in love with Tyranids.
Does the hive mind have any helpful tactics for running these beautiful beasties?
Warriors are best used as part of a Formation, or as a minimum 3 with Barbed Strangler. Take them to support, not advance, they are really a backfield only unit. They are good scoring synapse though, and durable with Venomthrope support. Personally, I like to put them on top of a Bastion that has a Venomthrope inside.
Shrikes are just flying warriors. They're good for mobile synapse, but then so are Flyrants. If you aren't using formations, they're better than Warriors as they now score, but make sure they are always, always, in cover. Again, Venomthrope support is nice.
Raveners are a very aggressive unit. Sadly, you need a ton for them to work, and due to cost most people won't buy a ton of them. But, you should deploy a ton of them as far forward as possible, then move them as fast as possible with one or two as a "tail" back into Venomthrope range. Venomthropes are hugely important to their survival, as they really don't care about terrain and so should always be in it. However, Shrikes are almost always going to be better than Raveners as they have very similar stats, but more options and Synapse.
Thanks for the response. I've been mulling over using 2-3 biovore teams on the back line to try and force pinning checks on my raveners' assault targets. See if I can deny overwatches. Has anyone had any luck with that?
Arrias117 wrote: Maybe this is a question for another thread, but I'm having a hell of a time getting the breeds of warriors (warriors, raveners, shrikes) to work. I realize they are no where near the more viable units in our dex, but their models are the reason I first looked at and fell in love with Tyranids.
Does the hive mind have any helpful tactics for running these beautiful beasties?
Warriors are best used as part of a Formation, or as a minimum 3 with Barbed Strangler. Take them to support, not advance, they are really a backfield only unit. They are good scoring synapse though, and durable with Venomthrope support. Personally, I like to put them on top of a Bastion that has a Venomthrope inside.
Shrikes are just flying warriors. They're good for mobile synapse, but then so are Flyrants. If you aren't using formations, they're better than Warriors as they now score, but make sure they are always, always, in cover. Again, Venomthrope support is nice.
Raveners are a very aggressive unit. Sadly, you need a ton for them to work, and due to cost most people won't buy a ton of them. But, you should deploy a ton of them as far forward as possible, then move them as fast as possible with one or two as a "tail" back into Venomthrope range. Venomthropes are hugely important to their survival, as they really don't care about terrain and so should always be in it. However, Shrikes are almost always going to be better than Raveners as they have very similar stats, but more options and Synapse.
Thanks for the response. I've been mulling over using 2-3 biovore teams on the back line to try and force pinning checks on my raveners' assault targets. See if I can deny overwatches. Has anyone had any luck with that?
Biovores don't have pinning unless you use the Living Artillery formation. So, use that, and give a Strangler to the warriors for maximum pinning, then hope for "the Horror" power.
A. Local meta has lots of light vehicles that I have better luck with the Str 6 than the Str 4
B. I already have mine cemented that way.
But in a group of 3 posted up somewhere (I like to play mine on a bastion with a nearby Venomthrope unless the Barrage weapons are out) is not bad for 100 or so points. Just remember, they are support (as mentioned by a previous poster). Don't assault with them unless you have to. This is NOT the edition for assault!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ugh... I want to get some biovores, but their cost in dollars is kinda prohibitive/ridiculous. They tend to be what they always have been: good for their points, especially against 4+ armor, but stuck in the Force Org area that Tyranids want EVERYTHING in (Heavy Support). If you have a lot of that in your area, 2-3 Biovores is red hot liquid DEATH. If you are playing against a lot of flyers/vehicles/3+ armor saves, then I'd look elsewhere.
That being said, the Living Artillery formation is pretty sweet against almost everything. Heck, the Exocrine is even better-than-nothing for anti-air! 3 Warriors, 3 Biovores, and an Exocrine... not even that expensive point-wise!
Not much to add...I always run Strangle Cannons for Warriors...except Living Artillery, the special rule gives pinning, so that Warrior Brood sports a Venom Cannon.
Way back in the day I purchased 9 Warriors, so I have two Strangle Broods, and one Venom Brood...fate I tells ya!
They are leadership 10 and have Lurk. That's a 1/12 chance of failing an IB check, and then even if you do fail it's still only 1/2 chance of fleeing for a turn (1/2 chance of having to move into cover instead).
I use Death Leaper's Assassin Brood quite a bit, and I can honestly say that IB is not a problem for them (especially since they normally end up in assault by turn 2/3 anyway).
Sure, once in a blue moon your Lictor will fail IB, run away and mess up something cool, but it's not common by any stretch of the imagination. Plus, you can do IB after you roll for Reserves so if (like me) you enjoy combining DLAB with Mawlocs then you're fine regardless.
Yah but who cares? The point is, why do they need synapse at all? Aren't these creatures supposed to be vanguards of the fleet sent months or even years in advance of any synapse creature? Even after the fleet arrives, their primary function is to operate alone from the rest of the army and flank, infiltrate and assassinate key enemy personnel.
Them requiring synapse makes no sense within the context of the fluff, is my point, and doesn't even seem to serve any point mechanically.
They are leadership 10 and have Lurk. That's a 1/12 chance of failing an IB check, and then even if you do fail it's still only 1/2 chance of fleeing for a turn (1/2 chance of having to move into cover instead).
I use Death Leaper's Assassin Brood quite a bit, and I can honestly say that IB is not a problem for them (especially since they normally end up in assault by turn 2/3 anyway).
Sure, once in a blue moon your Lictor will fail IB, run away and mess up something cool, but it's not common by any stretch of the imagination. Plus, you can do IB after you roll for Reserves so if (like me) you enjoy combining DLAB with Mawlocs then you're fine regardless.
Yah but who cares? The point is, why do they need synapse at all? Aren't these creatures supposed to be vanguards of the fleet sent months or even years in advance of any synapse creature? Even after the fleet arrives, their primary function is to operate alone from the rest of the army and flank, infiltrate and assassinate key enemy personnel.
Them requiring synapse makes no sense within the context of the fluff, is my point, and doesn't even seem to serve any point mechanically.
Surely a creature that spends years on a planet and has no direct link to the Hive Mind is going to act on nothing but instinct for most of its life?
Anyway it's a moot point, we can't change it, and I've found it has minimal impact on my games,
They are leadership 10 and have Lurk. That's a 1/12 chance of failing an IB check, and then even if you do fail it's still only 1/2 chance of fleeing for a turn (1/2 chance of having to move into cover instead).
I use Death Leaper's Assassin Brood quite a bit, and I can honestly say that IB is not a problem for them (especially since they normally end up in assault by turn 2/3 anyway).
Sure, once in a blue moon your Lictor will fail IB, run away and mess up something cool, but it's not common by any stretch of the imagination. Plus, you can do IB after you roll for Reserves so if (like me) you enjoy combining DLAB with Mawlocs then you're fine regardless.
Yah but who cares? The point is, why do they need synapse at all? Aren't these creatures supposed to be vanguards of the fleet sent months or even years in advance of any synapse creature? Even after the fleet arrives, their primary function is to operate alone from the rest of the army and flank, infiltrate and assassinate key enemy personnel.
Them requiring synapse makes no sense within the context of the fluff, is my point, and doesn't even seem to serve any point mechanically.
Lictor's don't move that far in advance of the Hive fleet. That is Genestealers, which is why they have/had the brood mind rule. Which I think is what lictors should have had. No Synapse and no IB.
They are leadership 10 and have Lurk. That's a 1/12 chance of failing an IB check, and then even if you do fail it's still only 1/2 chance of fleeing for a turn (1/2 chance of having to move into cover instead).
I use Death Leaper's Assassin Brood quite a bit, and I can honestly say that IB is not a problem for them (especially since they normally end up in assault by turn 2/3 anyway).
Sure, once in a blue moon your Lictor will fail IB, run away and mess up something cool, but it's not common by any stretch of the imagination. Plus, you can do IB after you roll for Reserves so if (like me) you enjoy combining DLAB with Mawlocs then you're fine regardless.
Yah but who cares? The point is, why do they need synapse at all? Aren't these creatures supposed to be vanguards of the fleet sent months or even years in advance of any synapse creature? Even after the fleet arrives, their primary function is to operate alone from the rest of the army and flank, infiltrate and assassinate key enemy personnel.
Them requiring synapse makes no sense within the context of the fluff, is my point, and doesn't even seem to serve any point mechanically.
I used gameplay terms because it was the easiest way I could describe the fluff equivalent of it, described in the start of the book. I am talking strictly background:
Spoiler:
SHUPPET wrote: As title says. Instinctive Behaviour creatures are basically described as incapable of decision making, with minor functionality capabilities left on more complex organisms outside of Synapse. So the Deathleaper infiltrating the heart St Caspalen, to terrorise and play mind games with IG leadership to gain his forces the upper hand - how the hell is this possible? Did he sneak a Warrior squadron in with him? He has the decision making capability of a stalking/lurking Lictor - it just doesn't seem like enough. It's written that he "instinctively" knew not to make a martyr out of Cardinal Salem, so for 10 days straight slaughtered his guards to make him aware of the fact he could kill him at anytime, so to drive him insane, so that his panicked demeanour would destroy the morale of his unit, opening up their defences for an attack? It sounds like something Riddick did in his latest movie, there is nothing to suggest that anything is capable of this level of thought underneath instinctive behaviour... why is he even IB at all? When he falls back into Synapse is he suddenly a Hive Mind tool of skirmish Warfare a million times smarter, and it's his instincts that carry him through his subterfuge efforts, Why not just make him Synapse?
A. Local meta has lots of light vehicles that I have better luck with the Str 6 than the Str 4
B. I already have mine cemented that way.
But in a group of 3 posted up somewhere (I like to play mine on a bastion with a nearby Venomthrope unless the Barrage weapons are out) is not bad for 100 or so points. Just remember, they are support (as mentioned by a previous poster). Don't assault with them unless you have to. This is NOT the edition for assault!
I gotta disagree with this. The best place for Warriors is assault (against something that has no Powerfist). There is nothing better for them, they are an assault focused terminator unit who will tear it up.
However, getting him to assault is the issue, he's good while he's there but don't put all your cards on it, stick to cover + Venomthrope bubble, abuse 36" range of the cannon till then.
I think the Venom Cannon is the better option in Living Artillery since it gets pinning, if not in Living Artillery (well, thats pretty much the main reason to even have warriors in your army) you should be using a Strangler for its LARGE blast Pinning support.
jifel wrote: Biovores don't have pinning unless you use the Living Artillery formation. So, use that, and give a Strangler to the warriors for maximum pinning, then hope for "the Horror" power.
SHUPPET wrote: I gotta disagree with this. The best place for Warriors is assault (against something that has no Powerfist). There is nothing better for them, they are an assault focused terminator unit who will tear it up.
However, getting him to assault is the issue, he's good while he's there but don't put all your cards on it, stick to cover + Venomthrope bubble, abuse 36" range of the cannon till then.
Let me clarify:
Due to the current inability to get Warriors into assault, their best role in the current edition seems to be in a ranged support/synapse bridge role. You can attempt to get them into assault range, and good luck to you on that; hypothetically they would do decently well if you kit them out for such. But I try not to dwell on the hypothetical but rather on the reality of the environment, and currently there is no efficient way for them to survive to get into assault with any reliability unless the board is CHOKED with terrain.
Specifically, I can either take them in an assault config and hope to make it, or take a BS or VC + deathspitters and kill some models from range. Or, put 'em in a bastion and let them play with heavy bolters. Either option is more tactically efficient IMHO.
jifel wrote: Biovores don't have pinning unless you use the Living Artillery formation. So, use that, and give a Strangler to the warriors for maximum pinning, then hope for "the Horror" power.
The comparison to CSM Marine is a pretty good one in terms of power level imo, but it was just off the top of my head, and if you can contribute by finding a better one (as I'm no doubt sure there is some) feel free to do so.
Challenge accepted. I think the best comparison to Genesteelers is other units in our own codex (specifically HormaGaunts and Raveners). After all, they are vying for the same points in our lists. To make the comparison fair, I used 100 points of each model.
I started by measuring their killiness on the charge, and this is what I found.
I was surprised by the results, because Genestealers have never been terribly effective in my games. Even when I've gotten them safely in assault. But my main problem with them was always survivability. So I measured them against the same units in how many non-rapid fire bolter shots they could take before dying, and how many close combat attacks they could take from standard tactical marines before dying.
As you can see, they match upgraded Gaunts in bolter shots, and beat them in Close combat. Raveners and non-upgraded HGaunts came out the clear victor, but Raveners also have a chance to be ID'd by Strength 8.
Then I decided to see how Genestealers would stack up against other Close combat specialists in other books.
and
Razorwing Flocks are clearly the winner though they do have a tendency to be ID'd but I think the numbers bear out why we see Dark Eldar BeastStar winning so many games.
Overall, I think my negative experiences with Genestealers are probably more related to how I use them, and not having large enough units to field a viable strategy. That being said, they still have poor mobility next to pretty much every other unit on this list.
I will make it a personal goal to try to figure out how to use genesteelers as effectively as I've been using Hormagaunts. I doubt they will ever serve me well against Tau, but they might be worthwhile next time I see space marines.
The comparison to CSM Marine is a pretty good one in terms of power level imo, but it was just off the top of my head, and if you can contribute by finding a better one (as I'm no doubt sure there is some) feel free to do so.
Challenge accepted. I think the best comparison to Genesteelers is other units in our own codex (specifically HormaGaunts and Raveners). After all, they are vying for the same points in our lists. To make the comparison fair, I used 100 points of each model.
I started by measuring their killiness on the charge, and this is what I found.
I was surprised by the results, because Genestealers have never been terribly effective in my games. Even when I've gotten them safely in assault. But my main problem with them was always survivability. So I measured them against the same units in how many non-rapid fire bolter shots they could take before dying, and how many close combat attacks they could take from standard tactical marines before dying.
As you can see, they match upgraded Gaunts in bolter shots, and beat them in Close combat. Raveners and non-upgraded HGaunts came out the clear victor, but Raveners also have a chance to be ID'd by Strength 8.
Then I decided to see how Genestealers would stack up against other Close combat specialists in other books.
and
Razorwing Flocks are clearly the winner though they do have a tendency to be ID'd but I think the numbers bear out why we see Dark Eldar BeastStar winning so many games.
Overall, I think my negative experiences with Genestealers are probably more related to how I use them, and not having large enough units to field a viable strategy. That being said, they still have poor mobility next to pretty much every other unit on this list.
I will make it a personal goal to try to figure out how to use genesteelers as effectively as I've been using Hormagaunts. I doubt they will ever serve me well against Tau, but they might be worthwhile next time I see space marines.
My old 5th ed list had two x10, to x12 Broods of Stealers. But it is hard to see a good use for them now. Infiltrate, Go to Ground is all that comes to mind.
Thanks for the stats! And for the open mind and contributing in a very cool way. Big exalts!Not only does that confirm to me what I believed about stealers it also shows to me that it can be just fine as a dedicated assault unit (better than a lot of other armies, if a bit glass cannony), and as I've said alot of people think they are worse than they are because they are HARD to use right, it also takes a list focused to their goal to make it work.
They may lack on mobility, but An upside that the Stealers have that some other compared units don't however is I6, as well as infiltrate. Getting them to combat turn 2 should be assured.
The comparison to CSM Marine is a pretty good one in terms of power level imo, but it was just off the top of my head, and if you can contribute by finding a better one (as I'm no doubt sure there is some) feel free to do so.
Challenge accepted. I think the best comparison to Genesteelers is other units in our own codex (specifically HormaGaunts and Raveners). After all, they are vying for the same points in our lists. To make the comparison fair, I used 100 points of each model.
I started by measuring their killiness on the charge, and this is what I found.
I was surprised by the results, because Genestealers have never been terribly effective in my games. Even when I've gotten them safely in assault. But my main problem with them was always survivability. So I measured them against the same units in how many non-rapid fire bolter shots they could take before dying, and how many close combat attacks they could take from standard tactical marines before dying.
As you can see, they match upgraded Gaunts in bolter shots, and beat them in Close combat. Raveners and non-upgraded HGaunts came out the clear victor, but Raveners also have a chance to be ID'd by Strength 8.
I've had some luck with genestealers, and some failures, but my observations are consistent with your statistics.
The thing with genestealers, as you've pointed out, is that they can hit pretty hard, particularly against armoured infantry. The trouble is that their effectiveness drops off quickly due to the model count issue. Personally, I don't run upgraded Hormies anymore, so Genestealer units lose a lot of their effectiveness much more quickly than hormies. I suppose that's just their glass cannon nature.
The games I play aren't super competitive, but I've had good results running 2 genestealer units close to one another (this is largely a reflection of the models I own). They've actually done well getting to riptides in the past.
The comparison to CSM Marine is a pretty good one in terms of power level imo, but it was just off the top of my head, and if you can contribute by finding a better one (as I'm no doubt sure there is some) feel free to do so.
Challenge accepted. I think the best comparison to Genesteelers is other units in our own codex (specifically HormaGaunts and Raveners). After all, they are vying for the same points in our lists. To make the comparison fair, I used 100 points of each model.
I started by measuring their killiness on the charge, and this is what I found.
I was surprised by the results, because Genestealers have never been terribly effective in my games. Even when I've gotten them safely in assault. But my main problem with them was always survivability. So I measured them against the same units in how many non-rapid fire bolter shots they could take before dying, and how many close combat attacks they could take from standard tactical marines before dying.
As you can see, they match upgraded Gaunts in bolter shots, and beat them in Close combat. Raveners and non-upgraded HGaunts came out the clear victor, but Raveners also have a chance to be ID'd by Strength 8.
Then I decided to see how Genestealers would stack up against other Close combat specialists in other books.
and
Razorwing Flocks are clearly the winner though they do have a tendency to be ID'd but I think the numbers bear out why we see Dark Eldar BeastStar winning so many games.
Overall, I think my negative experiences with Genestealers are probably more related to how I use them, and not having large enough units to field a viable strategy. That being said, they still have poor mobility next to pretty much every other unit on this list.
I will make it a personal goal to try to figure out how to use genesteelers as effectively as I've been using Hormagaunts. I doubt they will ever serve me well against Tau, but they might be worthwhile next time I see space marines.
Man, it's weird that Genestealers get sh!t on so much and yet the numbers prove otherwise (for the most part). HOWEVER, I think that 100 points isn't necessarily a good measure of their best use. To be honest, and as a request, I'd like to see the same numbers but based off of a maxed size unit of Hormagaunts. So what is that? 180 points? Additionally, I'd like to see the effect that a Broodlord has on the unit of Genestealers. In terms of survivability. I understand that this isn't necessarily a calculation easily fleshed out due to compounding LoS! rolls.
Last point that I'd like to make is this: Looking at all the comparisons across all the books you included, how many of those (barring the beastpack) are ACTUALLY used competitively. None. Kroot are taken simply as troop tax and not for their offensive capability. You could argue that MAYBE Khorn-Dogs are, but that's not because data shown here, they're taken to add pressure early in their speed and scout move.
Just some food for thought. Tag8833 I'll see if I can figure the Broodlord stuff out today and post what I find. Clearly, positioning of the Broodlord has an incredible variation on how the survivability increases/decreases so I'm going to base my numbers off of 8 Genestealers and a Broodlord. I will also present survivability changes based on him being positioned in the front of the unit, directly in the middle, and finally in the rear (in relation to firing models).
That's the thing tho, 180 pts of Hormagants means you can also take 180 pts of Steelers. The numbers will rise by the same percentage, and any lead will just be multiplied.
Multiply both by 1.8 if you want those actual statistics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, competitively it's generally just OP things that see play at the highest level, non OP stuff can't compete with the few things that are OP.
Most those units are well agreed upon as good assault units even if they aren't taken in riptide level of list building play.
Otherwise our entire coded "doesn't see competitive play". It doesn't matter at all
Good post, but i think there is an error. Why does it take 54 bolter shots to get the hormagaunts and the same number of emperor's finest manly punches? The 6+ save should make a difference.
SHUPPET wrote:That's the thing tho, 180 pts of Hormagants means you can also take 180 pts of Steelers. The numbers will rise by the same percentage, and any lead will just be multiplied.
Multiply both by 1.8 if you want those actual statistics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, competitively it's generally just OP things that see play at the highest level, non OP stuff can't compete with the few things that are OP.
Most those units are well agreed upon as good assault units even if they aren't taken in riptide level of list building play.
Otherwise our entire coded "doesn't see competitive play". It doesn't matter at all
True, with 180 points of Genstealers the statistics can be extrapolated. However, what I'm much more interested in is how the addition of a Broodlord affects those results. Because you can't include a Broodlord sub 130 points, the statistics don't properly reflect the effect of a Broodlord.
BTW what software is that being used to calculate those statistics? I was using Mathhammer40k but in melee (against Teq) there isn't a way to reflect the 2+/5++ against rending attacks accurately.
Spoletta wrote:Good post, but i think there is an error. Why does it take 54 bolter shots to get the hormagaunts and the same number of emperor's finest manly punches? The 6+ save should make a difference.
Good catch you're right!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since 180 points nets 12.8 Genestealers I am going to base all of my following calculations (that include a Broodlord) on the fact that the Broodlord will be upgraded with Scything talons for 4 points to gain an extra attack.
So I am looking at a unit of 8 Genestealers and a Broodlord: based on your calculations above it takes roughly 4.5 bolter shots to kill a Genestealer (which I'm kinda confused as why...because a BS 4 marine should be killing a Genestealer with just barely over 3 shots [0.67*0.5 or each bolter shot does 0.3333 unsaved wounds]) from what I figure (and Mathhammer40k concurs) that a unit of 7 Genestealers would take 21 bolter shots to be wiped out. But anyways:
8 Genestealers are leading the Broodlord it would take 24 shots to kill them followed by 27 bolter shots (according to mathhammer40k) the Broodlord. This will likely ensure that your Broodlord makes it into combat. As a side effect, being a challenge monster (against all but the most beefy ICs) you will end up winning combat against most TAC units. This is over a 41% increase in resiliency for compared to the equivalent 12 Genestealers being wiped out with 36 bolters, not to mention the other bonuses that come with the Broodlord.
.
.
.
.
I was beginning to talk about formations your Genestealer unit can take (positioning 4 Genestealers out in front of the Broodlord and trailing the remainder behind and sticking the Broodlord out in front) however, after further thought, the only way to increase the resiliency of the unit is by keeping the Broodlord in the rear. Otherwise, you can't take advantage of the T5. Majority being T4 results in way too many wounds for the Broodlord to pass off AND save assuming the same number of bolter shots as in the previous example (51).
Lastly, in terms of difference of damage output, 12 Genestealers will statistically cause 6.6667 unsaved wounds to Meq, 10.6667 unsaved wounds to Geq, and 4 unsaved wounds to Teq. All of which are respectable. When compared to the 8 plus Broodlord: Meq-5.7778 unsaved, Geq-14.6667 unsaved, and Teq-3.444. Roughly 14% less efficiency against Meq and Teq, but 38% more efficient against Geq.
Conclusion? In terms of trade off, to gain 41% resiliency, the 8 + Broodlord loses very little in terms of offensive capability. Keep in mind that none of these calculations account for cover saves or FnP which should be easily achieved these days for Nid players.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said any mistakes are probably shared so the numbers are still probably accurate for comparing. Would like to know the process tho.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Genestealer Cult Tactica almost deserves it's own thread
I took some shortcuts. I didn't apply the Terminator Invul against the rending attacks. Also GEQ should probably have been T3. I also didn't apply the Bolter AP value. I will run the math again and include these things if people are interested.
Mathhammering this can only get you so far. Cover is impossible to calculate in. The raw diversity of weapons is impossible to calculate in. Upgraded sergeants is impossible to calculate in.
I used Microsoft Excel to do the calculations.
Also, I see Beast of Nurgle, and Korne Dogs both being used pretty effectively. I've played against Deomonettes, and never been the most impress with them.
PrinceRaven wrote: The problem with Genestealers is not how good they are in assault.
It's that they're so slow and fragile they won't actually get to assault anything in the first place.
Yeah, like all rending platforms, it's about bringing a high volume of dice to the party. Genestealer units just have a nasty tendency to bleed their dice (i.e. bodies) on the way to assault. Their durability, speed and cost has been stuck in neutral even as shooting volume and lethality have increased dramatically in recent editions. Raveners and Shrikes have some fragility issues of their own, but at least they have the closing speed to bring a volume of dice to bear.
With a bonafide, durable transport (open-topped or with an assault ramp), Genestealers might be golden. But alas, it's not to be. I had the idea of using a bunker or bastion with an escape hatch as a way of getting a brood 18" (12" for the hatch, 6" for the disembark) up the table without taking fire. But they can't assault after leaving the hatch, so they'll still take a turn of fire in the face no matter what.
Psychic powers like Invisibility are in the game to help units just like Genestealers, but there's no way to get those on them either. Catalyst just isn't in the same category, especially when used on gribbly units.
PrinceRaven wrote: The problem with Genestealers is not how good they are in assault.
It's that they're so slow and fragile they won't actually get to assault anything in the first place.
They actually fare decently well if you take a medium sized brood with a lord and catalyst...but even then, they aren't dependable enough.
I think I generally agree with this. I've tended to use them in small broods, under 9. Based on my calculations, I think that running a brood of 15 or 20 would be much more effective for me. My thought was that I didn't want to invest so many points into such a fragile unit, but it also prevented me from realizing the usefulness of the genestealers.
Also, after my initial failures with Genestealers I started only running them in lists where I was trying to give a new / fluffy / bad player a chance. The goals of those lists was generally to nerf myself by using points really inefficiently, so I often took upgrades on the genestealers. Overall, I think upgraded genestealers are always worse on a point for point basis compared to base Genestealers.
With the loss of Focus fire, it might be a fun tactic to conga-line the bejesus out of a large unit of infiltrating genestealers. If you put the ones closest to the enemy in terrain, and trail the rest all the way back to your deployment lines to get shrouded from a venom, you can eat a lot more fire against many armies.
Also, after my initial failures with Genestealers I started only running them in lists where I was trying to give a new / fluffy / bad player a chance. The goals of those lists was generally to nerf myself by using points really inefficiently, so I often took upgrades on the genestealers. Overall, I think upgraded genestealers are always worse on a point for point basis compared to base Genestealers.
I have found this as well. For context, I tend to run my Genestealers in a Broodlord Hunting Pack of 14 + a Broodlord, and two broods of 5.
Adrenals have never worked out for me on Genestealers, largely because with S4 base and Toxin Sacks re-rolling on S=T S5 was largely superfluous (and in theory could cost you re-rolls, and by extension fewer actual Rends).
Toxin Sacks I did run, because the re-rolls were very useful against a lot of targets and upped the killing power significantly.
With 7th Edition, Toxin Sacks are nerfed and the re-rolls vs MEQ would require Adrenal Glands as well and that is just too expensive for me on a T4 6+ unit. As such, I have downgraded to basic Genestealers, adding more models to the main brood to fill out the points freed up from the Toxin Sacks (so my brood of 14 goes up to 17).
The one thing I do run just a few of are Scything Talons, hiding the Scything Genestealers behind the regular ones. The extra attacks do help, especially with the loss of the Toxin re-rolls. I haven't done the math to determine if they are worth it of course; largely it is just an afterthought because I spend 4 points on Scything Talons for the Broodlord so taking 4 more sets on regular Genestealers brings the points cost of the unit to a nice multiple of 10 (OCD much? ).
Couldn't find the answer for sure in YMDC and I didn't notice it in the last 15 pages or so here, but has anyone been playing the RAW in the new BRB about Swooping FMC being "hard to hit" and thusly allowed to be targeted by skyfire blast/template weapons?
Korias1004 wrote: Couldn't find the answer for sure in YMDC and I didn't notice it in the last 15 pages or so here, but has anyone been playing the RAW in the new BRB about Swooping FMC being "hard to hit" and thusly allowed to be targeted by skyfire blast/template weapons?
Yeha it has come up in this thread and in a few other places. Our FMC are baledrake bait.
PrinceRaven wrote: The problem with Genestealers is not how good they are in assault.
It's that they're so slow and fragile they won't actually get to assault anything in the first place.
Word, it was when Overwatch, and don't charge from Outflank came along, that my Stealers got put aside. I don't own any Broodlords, but if you can Pin a unit, getting into contact becomes much more possible.
Korias1004 wrote: Couldn't find the answer for sure in YMDC and I didn't notice it in the last 15 pages or so here, but has anyone been playing the RAW in the new BRB about Swooping FMC being "hard to hit" and thusly allowed to be targeted by skyfire blast/template weapons?
Yeha it has come up in this thread and in a few other places. Our FMC are baledrake bait.
Not so much, they are only turret weapons now, so just get behind them.
Korias1004 wrote: Couldn't find the answer for sure in YMDC and I didn't notice it in the last 15 pages or so here, but has anyone been playing the RAW in the new BRB about Swooping FMC being "hard to hit" and thusly allowed to be targeted by skyfire blast/template weapons?
Yeha it has come up in this thread and in a few other places. Our FMC are baledrake bait.
Not so much, they are only turret weapons now, so just get behind them.
And of course the Crone and Harpy can now both shoot their Drool Cannons/Heavy Venom Cannons respectively at enemy FMC (until it gets FAQ'd to be the same as the Zooming Flyer rule of course).
Faced my first Knight yesterday. I ran my TAC list against it. Knight went down turn 1 after doing 0 wounds in shooting thanks to my venom and terrain. First blood was the Knight.
2 Crones (4 tentaclids) + 2 Flyrants = dead knight. I never thought I would have a chance to kill it in one turn. I thought in the 2nd or 3rd turn it would probably go down, but not until after it had wreaked some damage. I had the mobility to avoid the shield's facing, and got a little lucky glancing with 3 of my 4 tentaclids, but they are not the thing of knightmare that I expected.
I've got a game Tuesday facing salamander drop pod marines. 2500 points, and I am restricted to single combined arms without zoeys or any HQ's except for the Swarmlord. We will be playing eternal war.
This is the list I'm tentatively looking at:
Spoiler:
The Swarmlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard
Venom
Venom
2 Lictors (This is the big question mark. They can kill marines and drop pods, but I've only got 2 of them, and am not entirely sure how to use them. Infiltrating them near devastators might be a good bet)
I do have an open fast attack slot, and I could drop the lictors for some gargoyles (maybe flesh hooks for my warriors). Or I could drop a Dakkafex for a Crone. Or I could split my Raveners into 2 units.
He likes las cannons, so can ID many of my models, but I hope to have the firepower / speed to limit their shooting to 1 to 2 turns. Also I've been playing mind games with him, talking up the TFex, so I'm hoping he puts all of his AP:2 into the TFex, as it isn't a critical part of my army. I also implied I was bringing a sea of gaunts, so I'm hoping he chooses flamers over melta. I expect him to try and wall me in with Drop pods, and it might work. I will try to target whatever drop podded unit has the most S8, and break out on that flank, attempting to get my Raveners / Shrikes to his backfield and whatever heavy weapons he is hiding there. I hope to do many, many multi-assaults with my Carnifex squads, to get one on a drop pod, and the rest of the squad in with marines. I might pull the same trick with Raveners if I have the opportunity. Swarmy will be handing out furious charge to Shrikes / Raveners / Warriors wherever possible to give them a better chance at taking down a drop pod.
I also know that he isn't the most points efficient player. He told me he was bringing at least 8 drop pods. 8 is a funny number, and it means that each drop pod contains large squad of marines. That isn't his best bet against me, because I can kill marines pretty easy.
Things I'm still unsure of.
1) Lictors. They can kill drop pods and marines. They can infiltrate. They can also be ID'd.
2) Wargear on Warriors. RC's give them a chance to kill drop pods, but it may be that I have enough firepower to kill drop pods already.
tag8833 wrote: Faced my first Knight yesterday. I ran my TAC list against it. Knight went down turn 1 after doing 0 wounds in shooting thanks to my venom and terrain. First blood was the Knight.
2 Crones (4 tentaclids) + 2 Flyrants = dead knight. I never thought I would have a chance to kill it in one turn. I thought in the 2nd or 3rd turn it would probably go down, but not until after it had wreaked some damage. I had the mobility to avoid the shield's facing, and got a little lucky glancing with 3 of my 4 tentaclids, but they are not the thing of knightmare that I expected.
I've got a game Tuesday facing salamander drop pod marines. 2500 points, and I am restricted to single combined arms without zoeys or any HQ's except for the Swarmlord. We will be playing eternal war.
This is the list I'm tentatively looking at:
Spoiler:
The Swarmlord
+ 3 Tyrant Guard
Venom
Venom
2 Lictors (This is the big question mark. They can kill marines and drop pods, but I've only got 2 of them, and am not entirely sure how to use them. Infiltrating them near devastators might be a good bet)
I do have an open fast attack slot, and I could drop the lictors for some gargoyles (maybe flesh hooks for my warriors). Or I could drop a Dakkafex for a Crone. Or I could split my Raveners into 2 units.
He likes las cannons, so can ID many of my models, but I hope to have the firepower / speed to limit their shooting to 1 to 2 turns. Also I've been playing mind games with him, talking up the TFex, so I'm hoping he puts all of his AP:2 into the TFex, as it isn't a critical part of my army. I also implied I was bringing a sea of gaunts, so I'm hoping he chooses flamers over melta. I expect him to try and wall me in with Drop pods, and it might work. I will try to target whatever drop podded unit has the most S8, and break out on that flank, attempting to get my Raveners / Shrikes to his backfield and whatever heavy weapons he is hiding there. I hope to do many, many multi-assaults with my Carnifex squads, to get one on a drop pod, and the rest of the squad in with marines. I might pull the same trick with Raveners if I have the opportunity. Swarmy will be handing out furious charge to Shrikes / Raveners / Warriors wherever possible to give them a better chance at taking down a drop pod.
I also know that he isn't the most points efficient player. He told me he was bringing at least 8 drop pods. 8 is a funny number, and it means that each drop pod contains large squad of marines. That isn't his best bet against me, because I can kill marines pretty easy.
Things I'm still unsure of.
1) Lictors. They can kill drop pods and marines. They can infiltrate. They can also be ID'd.
2) Wargear on Warriors. RC's give them a chance to kill drop pods, but it may be that I have enough firepower to kill drop pods already.
Who imposed that rule on you? It seems incredibly one-sided... That being said, I would go for a defensive approach and spring several Mawlocs, a Trygon or two, and multiple deep-strike capable units at him. Perhaps even a small unit of Genestealers to piggyback into an assault to quickly swing it into your favor. An anti-infantry flyer also would not be a bad call if he is going to be bringing large numbers of template weapons.
Well I'm not 100% sure if this is the perfect place to post, but I thought I might let the Nid community know that I was ALMOST utterly decimated by Skyblight without the Riptide Buffcommander combo. I still won because of a late game line breaker and dropping 3 malestrom cards turn 5, but after my experience, I would say that Nids are a fair amount more scary this edition. Nothing large, but the overall nerf of other stuff, and the psychic phase seemed to help my opponent. I do fear the bugs now!
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Who imposed that rule on you? It seems incredibly one-sided... That being said, I would go for a defensive approach and spring several Mawlocs, a Trygon or two, and multiple deep-strike capable units at him. Perhaps even a small unit of Genestealers to piggyback into an assault to quickly swing it into your favor. An anti-infantry flyer also would not be a bad call if he is going to be bringing large numbers of template weapons.
Restrictions are due to a campaign (10 people is more of a league than a campaign I guess). They hit me harder than most, but I'm still in 1st place in the campaign so far.
I'm not sure if you have ever used trygons in games, but they are not that good. They might take out a drop pod. 1 Trygon = about 50% chance of killing a drop pod if it shoots and then assaults it. But the key element is that Dakkafexes are great at messing up drop pods and marines. They can do 2-3 times as much damage as a trygon, and cost fewer points. In order to fit a trygon or mawloc in my list I have to drop dakkafexes or my Tfex, and it is hard to imagine either of those additions being an improvement. Genesteelers are a slightly more tempting suggestion. They are basically less mobile raveners that die in droves to flamers, and I'm playing mind games to get him to expect hoards, so there will hopefully be plenty of flamers. If I had convinced him I was bringing a flying circus, then I might have tried genesteelers.
He is a fan of quad guns. So a single Harpy / Crone isn't going to work real well.
The next battle is going to be even wilder. I have to take Old One Eye and a Flying Hive tyrant against Commander Farsight in a 1500 point game. Farsight bomb is coming my way, and it will not be pretty for Old One Eye.
Commander_Farsight wrote: Well I'm not 100% sure if this is the perfect place to post, but I thought I might let the Nid community know that I was ALMOST utterly decimated by Skyblight without the Riptide Buffcommander combo. I still won because of a late game line breaker and dropping 3 malestrom cards turn 5, but after my experience, I would say that Nids are a fair amount more scary this edition. Nothing large, but the overall nerf of other stuff, and the psychic phase seemed to help my opponent. I do fear the bugs now!
Yeah I played a Maelstrom game with Skyblight and man it rocks! Sure, you have to land the flyers in order to score, but gargoyles are more than happy to zoom all over the place and/or deep strike in. Same goes for the Mawlocs. Mobility is king! Well, maybe Objective: Secured is king. Gargoyles are just great now.
omerakk wrote: Has anyone had any luck trying out the Deathleaper's Assassin formation?
I've always loved the lictor and deathleaper models; it would be nice if I could find a way to use them in game without them all dying instantly ><
DLAB is great.You can impose a huge blanket of -1 Leadership on the board, which helps with Pinning, Fear tests etc. DLAB is also six individual broods, and so requires significant investment to put them all down if you deploy them fairly close to one another. Support them with Genestealers for best results (really overload whatever target area you are aiming for, and coupled with the -1 Leadership this is one of the rare occasions when The Horror on a Broodlord is actually fairly reliable). A couple of Mawlocs pair well with them as well (assuming you Infiltrate rather than Deep Strike as well. Between five Lictors, Deathleaper, some Genestealers and a couple of Mawlocs turning up on his doorstep your opponent should freak out a bit.
All of that together needs to be backed up by a strong hammer blow. Winged Tyrants and Crones are always good in this respect (and if you've taken Lictors, you shouldn't feel bad about bringing some of our harder stuff) as they pack a punch and have extreme mobility. In a larger game you might even be able to upgrade to full on Skyblight.
Alternatively, a wall of Carnifex/Venomthropes would probably work as well, because a lot of the incoming fire should be busy with those Lictors/Genestealers.
omerakk wrote: Has anyone had any luck trying out the Deathleaper's Assassin formation?
I've always loved the lictor and deathleaper models; it would be nice if I could find a way to use them in game without them all dying instantly ><
DLAB is great.You can impose a huge blanket of -1 Leadership on the board, which helps with Pinning, Fear tests etc. DLAB is also six individual broods, and so requires significant investment to put them all down if you deploy them fairly close to one another. Support them with Genestealers for best results (really overload whatever target area you are aiming for, and coupled with the -1 Leadership this is one of the rare occasions when The Horror on a Broodlord is actually fairly reliable). A couple of Mawlocs pair well with them as well (assuming you Infiltrate rather than Deep Strike as well. Between five Lictors, Deathleaper, some Genestealers and a couple of Mawlocs turning up on his doorstep your opponent should freak out a bit.
All of that together needs to be backed up by a strong hammer blow. Winged Tyrants and Crones are always good in this respect (and if you've taken Lictors, you shouldn't feel bad about bringing some of our harder stuff) as they pack a punch and have extreme mobility. In a larger game you might even be able to upgrade to full on Skyblight.
Alternatively, a wall of Carnifex/Venomthropes would probably work as well, because a lot of the incoming fire should be busy with those Lictors/Genestealers.
What he said, I've used them too and don't forget that Lictors aren't fearless. That means that when you start getting shot at, if you're able to keep them in ruins or behind walls you can go to ground for a 2+ cover save. Then on your turn, move a broodlord within 6" & cast dominion or a flyrant within 12", etc....get them in synapse. Once they become fearless they can move and assault as normal - it's really the best way to keep lictors alive.
Also the formation gives up first blood fairly easily with so many single-model units, however that is off set by the fact that you have so many different units to score objectives with and you can still charge 2 or 3 into 1 hard target for a good assault result when need be.
When the data slates first came out i fell in love with the Lictor Forest Brood, being a super-brood of 5 lictors. However, i think now that i've used both in games the Deathleaper Assassin Brood wins out for me overall.
If you have points for a comm's relay i recommend it if your plan is to bring in deep striking mawlocs and lictors - the re-roll is critical for overwhelming your opponent's lines.
You can't take two formations in almost all competitive settings so Skyblight + DLAB is a no unless its a friendly match.
I like the Pressure Bullet style of list. The issue with massed Lictors or Genestealers is the lack of anti tank that can come with it, and anti tank is more important than ever so your units can get to targets inside transport
I think mixing Lictor heavy lists with StealerShock is a bad idea imo. While initial impressions is that they are units that should work well together as they are designed with a similar playstyle in mind, I think this is actually only a surface level analysis. Genestealers need a lot of support and numbers to work. Ie Venomthrope, Screen, and Pinning support, + min 4 Broods . They really need pinning support to get their initiative, all this stuff is a big investment, this is wasted on Lictors who have flesh hooks + Stealth, as such all taking them does is just partially lower your body, wound, and damage saturation. Every squad of 3 Lictors taken in a StealerShock list could have been 11 Genestealers in a list that has the support they need. This is bad. And vice versa, the plus side of a Pressure Bullet Lictor list is that they don't need this investment, and a squad or two of Stealers in a here are for starters going to have no support and are also not going to have numbers and will be quickly chewed out as a couple of units of the most brittle glass cannons in the game.
Lictors will thrive using their small squad size to deploy and claim cover and even avoid LOS in terrain all across the board, and most definitely GtG. Use a Flyrant to get em back up. Taking a Mawloc or two who can Deepstrike into combat and not scatter, will assure you win every combat that lasts over a turn. No reason not to take if you are Lictor heavy, great model in general. Crones are probably the desired anti-tank because they're the cheapest and you don't need a screen, they are your only shot at popping a key transport before Mawlocs come down, and in the later turns your enti're army (Lictors Flyrants and Mawlocs) will be threatening rear armor with S6-7, which sort of Mitigates the fact that your anti-tank drops off. I don't see a reason to take anything other than more Lictors once you have your AT support, the more the better, any extra points you want for the bullet after taking 9 Lictors + DLAB can go to a large unit of Shrikes (or Ravs)
Genestealers are a bit different as they are much cheaper but die much easier, with no built in Stealth or Flesh Hooks. As such you need numbers, cover, and pinning. I personally feel like Living Artillery is a must for StealerShock, you want to be getting your I6.
Using a screen + Venomthropes can give your massed Stealers easy 2+ cover all the way into combat.
I've settled on eGrubs Tyrannofexs over Carnis for AT here as they hopefully kill a tank/transport BEFORE assault for your Stealers, double as a cool ass T6 W6 +2 screen, and in this army never have to worry about their biggest worry - being tarpitted all game by a couple of points of crap. They also get bonus points for Knight protection, and the fact that they are so much tougher than Carnis is relevant when they are practically the only MC in your army. They lo've being shot at.
Hope this essay helps someone =)
Automatically Appended Next Post: DLAB + max Broodlords could probably work as well. You wouldn't want to take anymore Lictors though as those ones only make the cut for their role in pinning. This is one I haven't actually tried and definitely will have to. I think this would have to be played super aggressive infiltrating as close as possible and relying on Pinning to force snapshots to get the most out of this. Seems cool, will definitely be the hardest of the three to play - but definitely sounds like fun.
10k pts of Nids against 7k IG armour and 3k of smurfs. This was a bit of an experiment for our club, as no one had tried to organise such a large-scale game before. Needless to say, we didn't come close to finishing the game, only playing two full turns in about 6 hours, including the time to setup.
It wasn't a very competitive game, my army list was literally just all the Nids I had that were painted to some degree. I would have preferred to drop 2-3k of trash units and reduce my opponent's huge tank line by the same amount. By the end of turn 2 I was losing pretty badly, having failed almost all of my charges and my opponent doing unusually well with cover saves against my limited high-strength shooting. The one upside is that I managed to kill Calgar during his finest hour while he had T10 and 2++
I made note of a few things for the future....
The one nerf from 7E whose impact most surprised me was the change to GC charging. Now you must charge a unit you targeted with a shooting attack, and with S10 firepower this often results in a lot of overkill. My Hierophants could either shoot my opponent's bubble-wrapped superheavies OR charge something that would probably die to just their firepower. I'm tempted to take the Hellstorm weapon option on them in future just to open up a much wider range of targets to charge.
Some Tyranid formations are utterly fantastic now that D-weapons are toned down. Living Fortress is a great HQ unit that can take a ton of punishment, and is probably the best way to field a Swarmlord (or Norn Crown) thanks to the PE bubble it has. Carnifex Crusher Broods can use an S10 AP2 Hellstorm attack, and make a great choice to use an All Out Attack and then Disordered Charge with. Who cares about losing bonus attacks when you're dropping 6D3 HoW hits.
Apoc under 7E really magnifies the problems Nids face against heavy armour at range. A Russ parking lot is pretty much the worst thing you can face now, and my opponent had at least 20 of them. We badly need either better ranged anti-armour, decent deep strike options or assault-from-reserve options for Nids
The Hierodules weren't quite as bad as I expected. The Barbed one wrecked quite a few Russes, and both of them absorbed a fair amount of firepower with FNP and Shrouded. They're still hideously overcosted, but they make a good distraction if there are no opposing D-weapons on the field.
Guants, Gargoyles and Warriors were basically a huge, pointless time-sink in this game. I couldn't physically fit them all in my deployment zone and had to leave many in reserve. They didn't achieve much either, killing a handful of marines in melee in an attempt to contest an objective and not get shot at.
Nice battle. With Apocalypse coming to the front again, I want to ask a few questions. I have begun to dig through my most recent purchase and get things reconverted to their proper items, and now comes some good ol' honest speculation. As it stands, I am now the proud owner of 27 shrikes, with 3 full uniform broods of 6 stock/3 rending claw melee shrikes. So, my question is if this will be sufficient to do decent damage deepstruck behind enemy lines? Also, on a subject for boosting the sturdiness of some of my Tyranid Primes, how does it sound to have a couple abandoned Tyrant Guards get some new friends for some toughness 6 goodies for some fairly durable synapse, with some extra boneswords on the Prime for some reasonable lethality at 190pts per unit?
I have an exocrine that is painted and glued together - he will forever be an exocrine.
I have another that is magnetized to swap between an exocrine and a haruspex. However it's a very fiddly connection and the heads tend to fall off.
The haruspex model looks really cool, but I cannot justify fielding it over another exocrine. Should I leave it alone or go ahead and glue it as a 2nd exocrine???
I used 6mm disc magnets for my Exocrine / Haruspex. The Haruspex head holds perfectly well like this, while the Exocrine gun also has a pin made from a paperclip, with corresponding hole in the body to stop it from drooping forward.
xttz wrote: I used 6mm disc magnets for my Exocrine / Haruspex. The Haruspex head holds perfectly well like this, while the Exocrine gun also has a pin made from a paperclip, with corresponding hole in the body to stop it from drooping forward.
If I'm pinning alongside of a magnet I usually use a brass rod as a pin over a paper clip. Paperclips are less rigid, and I find that sometimes when I'm swapping pieces I will bend the paperclip away from the hole.
mekugi wrote: I have a question about how Zoanthropes broods work in 7th ed...If I have 3 thropes in a brood, how many extra psychic powers can I roll up for them?
My mate and I decided that they are a brotherhood with a psyker level of 2 as per codex and rolled up one extra power. It seems fair to me, but I'd just like to check in and see if we played it wrong.
You roll for one, then you get Dominion for "free", so it sounds like you got it right.
Right, I have a mini tournament coming up in a few weeks at a local GW.
The rules are
- 500 points max
- Battle-forged
- Games will be played on a 24"x48" board with a single objective in the middle
It's 16 players, knockout system, and given the small table sizes I imagine it will be fast and brutal.
I'm looking for ideas on what to run from my Hive Fleet, and I'm coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas (ever one to try something a little unconventional).
At first I considered FMC spam, but on such a small table I really worry that Swooping will be a liability because of the limited turning arc. It is also likely that the incoming fire won't be that bad.
The way I see it, there are two major things I need to plan for. First, the scramble for the objective in the middle; I either need something incredibly tough to sit on it, or to deal so much damage that my opponent cannot contest it. Second, I need to watch out for really nasty, hard hitting units (my local meta is currently loving Grav spam), and should ideally have something fairly lethal to wipe them out safely.
Venomthropes and Termagants sound like good ideas for moving up on the objective. Tunneling Rippers also sound tempting. I can fiddle around with that, and would even consider an HQ Tervigon or Tyrannofex (or both) to push for the objective.
The "lethal" part is where I am throwing all sorts of darts at the board though, because in such a small game I think I have a chance to unleash a few things that maybe don't work so well in large games.
Deathleaper is a resilient, nasty HQ that can guide in a Mawloc for that killer-strike I'm looking for.
A Devourer/Winged Tyrant is always a solid choice, but as I mention above I worry about it not fulfilling its role as a gunboat as well as it could because it will probably have to spend a few turns gliding.
This brings me to a really nasty melee Tyrant with the Reaper and Wings, which has the speed to cross the board and can enjoy both a Bonesword with Shred and also S8 on the charge thanks to the Reaper and Adrenals. That's very tempting, but expensive.
I cannot run Living Artillery, but an Exocrine is also lethal and on a small board its limited range is not such an issue.
So much to choose from! Any ideas/suggestions from people who have played such tiny games before?
Xyptc wrote: Right, I have a mini tournament coming up in a few weeks at a local GW.
The rules are
- 500 points max
- Battle-forged
- Games will be played on a 24"x48" board with a single objective in the middle
It's 16 players, knockout system, and given the small table sizes I imagine it will be fast and brutal.
I'm looking for ideas on what to run from my Hive Fleet, and I'm coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas (ever one to try something a little unconventional).
At first I considered FMC spam, but on such a small table I really worry that Swooping will be a liability because of the limited turning arc. It is also likely that the incoming fire won't be that bad.
The way I see it, there are two major things I need to plan for. First, the scramble for the objective in the middle; I either need something incredibly tough to sit on it, or to deal so much damage that my opponent cannot contest it. Second, I need to watch out for really nasty, hard hitting units (my local meta is currently loving Grav spam), and should ideally have something fairly lethal to wipe them out safely.
Venomthropes and Termagants sound like good ideas for moving up on the objective. Tunneling Rippers also sound tempting. I can fiddle around with that, and would even consider an HQ Tervigon or Tyrannofex (or both) to push for the objective.
The "lethal" part is where I am throwing all sorts of darts at the board though, because in such a small game I think I have a chance to unleash a few things that maybe don't work so well in large games.
Deathleaper is a resilient, nasty HQ that can guide in a Mawloc for that killer-strike I'm looking for.
A Devourer/Winged Tyrant is always a solid choice, but as I mention above I worry about it not fulfilling its role as a gunboat as well as it could because it will probably have to spend a few turns gliding.
This brings me to a really nasty melee Tyrant with the Reaper and Wings, which has the speed to cross the board and can enjoy both a Bonesword with Shred and also S8 on the charge thanks to the Reaper and Adrenals. That's very tempting, but expensive.
I cannot run Living Artillery, but an Exocrine is also lethal and on a small board its limited range is not such an issue.
So much to choose from! Any ideas/suggestions from people who have played such tiny games before?
Quite frankly I would recommend taking the Flyrant. Give him Electroshock grubs and he becomes a huge problem for your enemy. Another thing that is amazing in small games are Tervigons. The amount of gants they can produce will quickly tip the scales in your favor. If I were to build a 500 point list, it would consist of:
Flyrant, one devourer, ElectroGrubs
Tervigon
10 gants
3 Rippers
Unless taking Mawloc + DL, you probably want to consider a Venomthrope. That's usually obvious for Tyranid, but at 500 pts on a small board, EVERYTHING will be focus fired, and every shot counts, shrugging off 2/6 Lascannon wounds off EVERY MC is going to be much bigger here. Put throse MCs behind cover or a screen themselves as well and they will be massive. In a small map and army their bubble covers more ground in a sense, your army will most likely all be in it. Venom will be focused though so you need to be really careful with him! He's harder to kill at 500 pts but harder to hide. He won't last all game but with careful positioning, will definitely make back his points by costing your opponent some critical firepower regardless.
I was going to say that a Regen Tfex will never die at 500 with a Venomthrope, but then I saw Grav Spam is big for you, so I don't know.
I think you should definitely consider Exocrine, he will melt Marines and Centurions, as well as hitting flyers hard. I've also got to suggest Biovores as their firepower is immense and they aren't even that bad in CC at this level.
Mawlocs will be a gods of destruction here, wrecking havoc with blasts, throwing around 6 wounds and tearing it up in CC. Problem is they can't hit Centurions in ruins, so if you think the tables will be set up with ruins you can't afford to waste 140 pts on them here if the critical infantry unit (and against us it's often something with good range) can just hide out in the ruins safely all game.
Keep in mind that the lower the points go the better a Tervigon is. Even as your HQ at 500 (+30 terms doesn't leave many points to work with). Also, that 35 pts CAN be dropped from a Flyrant on a small board if points are tight.
At the end of the day, I'd probably just take 2 squads of Terms and a Flyrant with Shreddershards for numpties in the ruin, and then your choice between an Exocrine, Tyrannofex, or Biovores+VenomThorpe. But that's me and there is so much you can do, Keep in mind Flyrant will tear it up in CC regardless
Xyptc wrote: Right, I have a mini tournament coming up in a few weeks at a local GW.
The rules are
- 500 points max
- Battle-forged
- Games will be played on a 24"x48" board with a single objective in the middle
It's 16 players, knockout system, and given the small table sizes I imagine it will be fast and brutal.
I'm looking for ideas on what to run from my Hive Fleet, and I'm coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas (ever one to try something a little unconventional).
At first I considered FMC spam, but on such a small table I really worry that Swooping will be a liability because of the limited turning arc. It is also likely that the incoming fire won't be that bad.
The way I see it, there are two major things I need to plan for. First, the scramble for the objective in the middle; I either need something incredibly tough to sit on it, or to deal so much damage that my opponent cannot contest it. Second, I need to watch out for really nasty, hard hitting units (my local meta is currently loving Grav spam), and should ideally have something fairly lethal to wipe them out safely.
Venomthropes and Termagants sound like good ideas for moving up on the objective. Tunneling Rippers also sound tempting. I can fiddle around with that, and would even consider an HQ Tervigon or Tyrannofex (or both) to push for the objective.
The "lethal" part is where I am throwing all sorts of darts at the board though, because in such a small game I think I have a chance to unleash a few things that maybe don't work so well in large games.
Deathleaper is a resilient, nasty HQ that can guide in a Mawloc for that killer-strike I'm looking for.
A Devourer/Winged Tyrant is always a solid choice, but as I mention above I worry about it not fulfilling its role as a gunboat as well as it could because it will probably have to spend a few turns gliding.
This brings me to a really nasty melee Tyrant with the Reaper and Wings, which has the speed to cross the board and can enjoy both a Bonesword with Shred and also S8 on the charge thanks to the Reaper and Adrenals. That's very tempting, but expensive.
I cannot run Living Artillery, but an Exocrine is also lethal and on a small board its limited range is not such an issue.
So much to choose from! Any ideas/suggestions from people who have played such tiny games before?
I think you're on the right track, of picking one stomper, then filling in with gribblies. I'd likely take a Tyranofex,Adrenal, Thorax Hive, and use it to bum rush his troops right off the map. Toss in a couple of Termigant Broods, an HQ, and you're pretty close to maxed out ...
Deathleaper, and his pet Mawlocs sounds like a fun build as well. just run a Warrior Brood, or two for any Synapse needs.
The gargoyles are fast enough to reach out and grab the objective. Surround it with bodies. Deal with any target you can hurt, and try to tarpit tougher things like MC's or beatstick HQ's. You could swap the Zoey for a venom, but that gives you only 1 Synapse source, and the odds of you making enough saves to pay for the venom are low.
The other way to go is Tervigon as HQ.
Tervigon (e. Grubs)
Venom
13 TGaunts
12 TGaunts
Carnifex (2 TL-Devourers)
You might generate a bunch of extra gaunts.
My last suggestion is the most unorthodox. Shrikes are great so long as Strength 8+ isn't common. They can theoretically deal with nearly everything except armor 14.
Death Leaper
10 TGaunts
10 TGaunts
4 Shrikes (FHs, RCs, STs) -> Vehicle Killer, TEQ killer
3 Shrikes (FHs, 2 RCs, 1 BS + LW, STs) -> MEQ killer
There aren't going to be many things that can beat those Shrikes in Close combat (especially at 500 points). One of the biggest challenges will be overwhelming units. To avoid this consider multi-assaults. Assault one Shrike into a squad of Tac Marines, and the other 2-3 into a Rhino. If your opponent gets to the objective first, good for him, your Shrikes can take it back turn 2. All of the Shrikes are synapse, and so you won't have problems there. Your biggest fear is wraith knights / lords and power fists / claws. Hope that the grav spam marines take out the Eldar for you.
I really think Tyranids are going to have a rough time in such a small game. We don't have cheap HQ options, and a Dakka Flyrant won't work well on that board. A CC Flyrant might work, but it is so many points.
Dakka Tyrants are fine, drop the wings if you think you don't need em but jink even in jump mode is great. I swear people think FMCs have 1 flight mode.
CC Tyrant is an even worse idea, as a Flyrant can already throw down so much hurt in CC, his upgrades are overpriced and don't add much, and he sacrifices being one of your best shooters AND CC machines, to have no shooting and a slightly nicer CC. Totally not worth. You want to use him in CC, shoot 12 times and jump right in. They are assault weapons. Throwing that BS4 plus immense TL firepower coupled with his amazing mobility, is a great way to kneecap yourself before the game even begins, and his points reflect that.
Also, people are assuming eGrubs is the answer in 500 pts because it is necessary in larger games, is a habit of conditioning and just playing what they've been told is good, it's not 1850 pts, there will be very little AV that can't be broken with Tl-devs and anyone taking as Land Raider is going to be much lighter on firepower as a result (and will have q pretty gimmicky list), you can feel free to ignore it or smash it down turn 3 or so. sBeetles will be much more important with Ignores Cover autowounds for Centurions in the ruin and the like.
SHUPPET wrote: Dakka Tyrants are fine, drop the wings if you think you don't need em but jink even in jump mode is great. I swear people think FMCs have 1 flight mode.
A valid point. I considered several Flyrant + Venom lists for a 2+ jink on a Gliding FMC. None of the lists I was fiddling with were better than the ones I posted.
SHUPPET wrote: Also, people are assuming eGrubs is the answer in 500 pts because it is necessary in larger games, is a habit of conditioning and just playing what they've been told is good, it's not 1850 pts, there will be very little AV that can't be broken with Tl-devs and anyone taking as Land Raider is going to be much lighter on firepower as a result (and will have q pretty gimmicky list), you can feel free to ignore it or smash it down turn 3 or so. sBeetles will be much more important with Ignores Cover autowounds for Centurions in the ruin and the like.
E. Grubs are good. And I think they are more critical in 500 point lists. Imagine a dreadnaught in a drop pod. How are you going to deal with either one? E. Grubs are your best answer to both. Even better than TL-Devourers vs Drop pods. E. Grubs aren't as good against Centurions as S. Beetles, but they can still force a few saves, and against a majority of targets they are nearly as good. I used to take S. Beetles against Tau a lot. These days I take E. Grubs. They are marginally less effective against good armor, but not much. I make this argument based on game experience, but I'll run the math and post that as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is the Percentage to cause an unsaved wound for each thorax weapon against a variety of targets.
The models where the S. Beetles outperform the E.Grubs significantly are multi-wound models. Meanwhile, the E. Grubs are only better against all vehicles and Guardsman, but they are fairly close against most things. Fascinating performance for D. Larva. Kinda hard to justify it. I've only run it a couple times in a game because I saw some similar math on theTyranidHive, but it is fairly stark how much less effective it is against most things than S. Beetles.
Rear Armor 10 dropping in on your side of the board with 3 HP? Is that even a serious question, what do you think wings + Devourers do man? Your opponent now has a 300 or army. Hell you could just about assault it to death. You have a worse rate of wounding with Grubs here. Assault the drop pod, any MC will knock it out in a couple of turns. Each TOdev should have the same damage output vs these as well.
eGrubs are not at all necessary. Feel free to run the numbers, but I can already tell you AVG 5+ hits with a single Devourer at S6 is outdamaging the 3x S5 grubs. You will do about 1.5 Wounds against TEQ with Devourers, .75 each. Feel free to do the math with 3 sBeetles hits, it's going to be doing a Wound a turn to a Centurion by itself on average. Better vs Cents (it's critical tho, kill the Cents you win) but much better vs say Marines where he can get 6 hits, or bikes where it ignores the jink as well as the armor (Exocrine can't do this). Pathfinders in the ruin is another good example, be sure to include these in your math.
If you want to cover your bases, I think sBeetles is the way to go, might be wrong and will exalt the maths either way because I'm curious. But if the biggest threat in your meta is Grav Spam, you'd be crazy to take Grubs over Beetles on a Flyrant. IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: TY for math! Good choice of targets!
But I think you need to include TLDevs (since it's a choice between thorax or Dakota every turn) and damage vs Bikes (T5 Marines)
Automatically Appended Next Post: And wow Larvae hits Infantry worse than Grubs and doesn't glance vehicles. What w junky thoughtless upgrade by GW.
Something that becomes especially lethal in low point games (if you want to be competitive and don't mind the un-fluffiness of Tyranids using fortifications) is the venom in a box idea. You can have a flyrant on the ground turn 1 (and sometimes even 2 if you set up well) jinking for a 2+ with shrouded. I believe that using something like this is actually a great way to bring back dedicated close combat flyrants. That one turn of ground vulnerability is much less of an issue if you're rocking 2+ cover.
The same goes with a flying hive tyrant, but that usually only works for one turn. Either way, you get to say, "what alpha strike?" Especially sucks for drop pod armies as they have to waste a LOT of firepower trying to take down the bastion to get at the venomthrope or finding a way around cover. In that configuration, I like having a squad of warriors on top of the bastion to have a large synapse bubble (and to provide it to the venomthrope as well)
Nasty Flyrant
Warriors with barbed strangler
Rippers
Venom in a box
That puts you right about at 500 and gives you a good amount of points to play around with on the flyrant.
You can actually fit a surprising amount of stuff into a 500 point game. All three lists offer something cool.
The flying Devourer Tyrant is a proven-effective gunboat, Shreddershards allow him to pull enemy units out of cover and I have enough left over to make a modest push on the objective. I will also have Warp Lance on the off chance that a Land Raider does park on the objective somehow.
The Tervigon/Exocrine combo is a traditional Tyranid tsunami. Two monsters, 11T6/3+ wounds with (at worst) a 5+ cover save against almost everything is going to be really hard to put down (unless I face too many Centurions, and even then they can only do so much, right?), and we have weight of numbers on our side too.
The Deathleaper list is cool. A Mawloc can (fairly) safely destroy a firebase, and in a small game Tyranid Warriors aren't as fragile as they are in larger games (again, a Venomthrope following them around helps).
Of the three I think list 1 will probably do best. It's very jack-of-all-trades.
I think #2 is by far the best, followed by #3. I don't like #1 for a fair few reasons. For starters, the Zoey is wasted points. It will take about 12 turns to kill a LR. He also benefits nothing from the Venomthrope, who is doing nothing but giving cover to a Flyrant turn 1, and he's already got 4+ jink just in case they do get first have enough ranged AP 3 to alpha him. Position him back field and use the points saved from cutting him, the Zoey, and the random ass Biovore, to take a Mawloc. Anything that can threaten the Flyrant turn 1 has to risk eating a Mawloc blast to do it, and Cents won't even take 2 wounds from a Jinking Flyrant even in jump mode. If you are worried about the Gants having no Synapse, drop for DS Rippers, take Regen on the Loc (he can Regen in reserves), or just give both MC's AG.
-
The second list to me looks fine, except you have very little to deal with Cents in the ruin. This is a bad thing, although I like the combo. It's gonna suck when everything you want to kill the most sits in the ruin each game. I'd leave this for 750 where you can support it a bit better, and there will be more units likely less to hide in safety of the Ruin. If you are going to take it though, I'd drop the Venomthrope who isn't doing much here, and whatever else you can to take more Biovores.
I see no flaws whatsoever in the second one though. BTW for your building, Biovores are 40 pts not 45.
Right, I have a mini tournament coming up in a few weeks at a local GW.
The rules are
- 500 points max
- Battle-forged
- Games will be played on a 24"x48" board with a single objective in the middle
It's 16 players, knockout system, and given the small table sizes I imagine it will be fast and brutal.
I'm looking for ideas on what to run from my Hive Fleet, and I'm coming up with all sorts of crazy ideas (ever one to try something a little unconventional).
At first I considered FMC spam, but on such a small table I really worry that Swooping will be a liability because of the limited turning arc. It is also likely that the incoming fire won't be that bad.
The way I see it, there are two major things I need to plan for. First, the scramble for the objective in the middle; I either need something incredibly tough to sit on it, or to deal so much damage that my opponent cannot contest it. Second, I need to watch out for really nasty, hard hitting units (my local meta is currently loving Grav spam), and should ideally have something fairly lethal to wipe them out safely.
Venomthropes and Termagants sound like good ideas for moving up on the objective. Tunneling Rippers also sound tempting. I can fiddle around with that, and would even consider an HQ Tervigon or Tyrannofex (or both) to push for the objective.
The "lethal" part is where I am throwing all sorts of darts at the board though, because in such a small game I think I have a chance to unleash a few things that maybe don't work so well in large games.
Deathleaper is a resilient, nasty HQ that can guide in a Mawloc for that killer-strike I'm looking for.
A Devourer/Winged Tyrant is always a solid choice, but as I mention above I worry about it not fulfilling its role as a gunboat as well as it could because it will probably have to spend a few turns gliding.
This brings me to a really nasty melee Tyrant with the Reaper and Wings, which has the speed to cross the board and can enjoy both a Bonesword with Shred and also S8 on the charge thanks to the Reaper and Adrenals. That's very tempting, but expensive.
I cannot run Living Artillery, but an Exocrine is also lethal and on a small board its limited range is not such an issue.
So much to choose from! Any ideas/suggestions from people who have played such tiny games before?
What about something like this:
Tyranid prime
-Scything talons
-Rending claws
-Toxin sacs
I would attach the Prime to the Venomthrope, then bubblewrap the unit in gants. Place the Prime closest so you can LoS! wounds to the larger gant unit or perhaps even meaner you can LoS! to the T-fex. Place the T-fex nearby, preferably in cover or at least slightly behind the Venomthrope+Prime unit so you can get the 5+ from intervening modified to 3+ from shrouded.
If you move towards the objective as a whole "onion" you will keep your Venomthrope alive long enough to provide the essential cover to the T-fex and gants. Most smart opponents will ignore the T-fex until they have to deal with it, but since you'll be LoS! some of the wounds to it, they will probably have to deal with it. Additionally, because he's got a 2+, he'll be able to tank lots of firepower.
I gave it Adrenals because when you want to tarpit a unit, you don't want to fail that uber important charge.
The Prime I gave toxin sacs due to the same reason that Genestealers were obligated to take them in 5th edition. With re-rollable wounds, you significantly increase your chance of rending.
EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see you already had it narrowed down to the 3 lists. I think I like the first list the most. It is most TAC, gives you psychic defense (kinda) too.
I also thought that this could be funny:
Tyranid Prime
-Scything talons
-Rending claws
Carnifex brood
1 Dakkafex (dual TL-deathspitters)
1 Carnifex with Scything talons, Crushing Claws, Bio-Plasma, and Toxin-sacs
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Same kind of idea, use Prime to Los! wounds to either one of the carnifexen, and if they lose a couple wounds, start pawning those wounds off to the gant units.
I know the Carnifex unit isn't optimized, but because you can't fit two dakkafexen into this list you'd have to do something like each with 1 set of TL-Devouerers and 1 set of TL-deathspitters. Without split fire though I feel that a twin carnifex unit like this would be wasted. On second thought, you could start by allocating lots of those wounds to the shooty fex, and once you've closed the distance, start allocating to every other.
A Carnifex with Scything talons + crushing claws is nothing to scoff at on the charge. D3+1 S9 HoW attacks + 5 attacks at S10 AP2 on the charge, re-rolling 2+ to wound is pretty bad ass. They are at WS 3, so yeah, you may only hit two-three times but you'll ID everything. Unless they have an invuln save which you'd eventually get through and ID them.
Against a T6 unit, most firepower will plink off. Those Grav Cents could be a problem, so I'd dump all of those wounds to the gant units.
Trygon pops up to provide a tunnel for the swarm to respawn from
Rippers deepstrike back in just to be annoying
Warriors provide mid/back field synapse while supporting with the barbed stranglers
Termagaunts hold rear objectives and mid objectives
Biovores help blast units out of cover
Carnifex's are there because I think they look cool might even be useful vs AV14 under certain circumstances
Not the best thing in the world, but still looks like it could be fun!
I think this one isn't great for the reasons you specified.
Xyptc wrote: List 2, Tervigon, Exocrine and their children
Could work. I prefer Carnifexes to Exocrines in TAC lists. Might be the Exocrine is better for you meta.
Xyptc wrote: List 3, Deathleaper and his pet Mawloc
Deathleaper (130)
Venomthrope (45)
3 Tyranid Warriors (100)
Barbed Strangler
10 Termagants (40)
Biovore (45)
Mawloc (140)
This list has problems. It comes in phases. It will be too easy for your opponent to deal with Deathleaper while you are waiting for your Mawloc to come in. The Biovore costs 5 points less than you marked. If you opponent manages to Kill Deathleaper turn 1, which he should, then your Mawloc will likely scatter when it arrives and not do much of an effect. Are you really going to keep Deathleaper alive and within 6" of an enemy until turn 4 when the Mawloc is sure to come in? Mawlocs are highly random, and can be used by mitigating the randomness by taking multiples. At 500 points you don't have that luxury. If you get lucky, it might be a highly effective list, but if you get unlucky, you will lose.
SHUPPET wrote: Rear Armor 10 dropping in on your side of the board with 3 HP? Is that even a serious question, what do you think wings + Devourers do man? Your opponent now has a 300 or army. Hell you could just about assault it to death. You have a worse rate of wounding with Grubs here.
Part of the wonder of E.Grubs is that you can hit multiple things with the template. 1 Wound on the drop pod, 1 wound on the Dred. Then assault one or the other. My suggestion was specifically Tervigon with E.Grubs. It can't outrun, get back armor, or shoot 2 TL-devourers at a dred or drop pod. The biggest reason for E.Grubs against Dred's is for overwatch. Walkers are awesome in Close combat these days against MC's. 50% chance to hit it with smash (tervigon / TFex) If you hit you will probably wound, but only a 17% of doing more than one wound. If a full HP dred assaults a tervigon, it will take the tervigon on average 5 turns to kill it. Do you want to allow his 140 point model to tarpit your only synapse for most of the game with a serious shot at killing it?
SHUPPET wrote: Assault the drop pod, any MC will knock it out in a couple of turns. Each TO dev should have the same damage output vs these as well.
If you can spend 2 turns assaulting a drop pod to kill it with an MC, it means your opponent is winning that game or doing something wrong. Especially at 500 points when you can have 2 MC's at most.
SHUPPET wrote: eGrubs are not at all necessary. Feel free to run the numbers, but I can already tell you AVG 5+ hits with a single Devourer at S6 is outdamaging the 3x S5 grubs. You will do about 1.5 Wounds against TEQ with Devourers, .75 each. Feel free to do the math with 3 sBeetles hits, it's going to be doing a Wound a turn to a Centurion by itself on average. Better vs Cents (it's critical tho, kill the Cents you win) but much better vs say Marines where he can get 6 hits, or bikes where it ignores the jink as well as the armor (Exocrine can't do this). Pathfinders in the ruin is another good example, be sure to include these in your math.
I'll add TL-Devourers to the math. As well as Drop Pods (armor 12) and Back armor on Dred (armor 10).
SHUPPET wrote: I don't like #1 for a fair few reasons. For starters, the Zoey is wasted points. It will take about 12 turns to kill a LR.
The zoey isn't there to pop Land Raiders. All of the lists are screwed against Land Raiders. He is there as somewhat durable synapse (because the Flyrant will have other things on his mind). He also serves as a support unit (another psychic power roll, warp charge battery for Tyrant). Lastly, he might take some pot shots at marines. Warp blast can kill a few 3+ save models a turn. Warp Lance can ID a Centurion.
omerakk wrote: Carnifex with Crushing Claws
Carnifex with Crushing Claws
Carnifexes can already deal with armor well. Crushing Claws are for things like Tervigons or Tyrant Guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is the math compare 1 TL Devourer to the various thorax weapons. It generally out performs them, but it is getting 6 shots, while the template is only getting 1, so it isn't exactly a fair comparison. Multiply the percentage of the Thorax weapon by the number of models covered by the template and you will get a more fair comparison. But the number of models is highly variable, and doesn't really work for this math.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Because I sparked my own interest. Here is the math that you can use to guide you in the situations where you have a flyrant with a Thorax weapon. This is the number of models you need to cover to make a thorax weapon better than a TL-Devourer assuming no cover is involved.
I think the most likely scenario you are going to run into is 2 vehicles close together, or a transport, and the unit it was transporting, or 4+ guardsmen next to each other. If you happen to have 3 Centurions in template range of Shredder beetles, take that shot, but otherwise you are mainly going to want to stick with your TL-Devourer. I think in many ways this explains why my in game experience is so much better with Egrubs. I run a lot more flyrants than TFexes or Tervigons, and my TFexes and Tervigons don't get in template range as quickly or often as my flyrants. I very, very rarely run into situations with S. Beetles where it would justify me giving up a TL Devourer. 10 Marines popping out of a Rhino or Drop pod is pretty Common for me. As is Guard blob.
Carnifexes can already deal with armor well. Crushing Claws are for things like Tervigons or Tyrant Guard.
I know what the odds say, but I've charged monoliths and landraiders with an AG carnifex and failed to stop them plenty of times. Im hoping Strength10 armorbane and an extra attack from 2 sets of weapons will fix that.
Although honestly, this is just trying to fish for a purpose for a unit I love to look at; I think the claw/talon carnifexs look so cool
Holy gak Tag! I'm loving your contributions as of late, thanks heaps for the calcs.
I can see eGrubs being considerable on the Terv actually. He's never going to get to apply SShard beetles to anything even if the stats are better, and eGrubs gives him a role. He sho-uld still probably be assaulting that pod tho,, justto deny the turn of shooting from it. eGrubs may save you a turn tho.
I was more talking about Tyrant who does have the mobility to shard the Cents and Oblits. Looking at the stats the difference not huge, but at 500 pts the difference between 1 dead Cent and a live one can be the game. I just think it's more useful than eGrubs, which isn't nearly as important you must agree. However, looking at the stats I can see the AT being worth it for the utility.
That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
SHUPPET wrote: That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.
Hey guys, I need some input on a few things; tactics and general experience on just how far I can push a unit before it hits its limit and I start sending things on suicide missions that they just can't do.
Carnifexes I currently have 3 builds planned for my horde of Carnifexes; Some I have a decent idea of what I can use them for, others, I have no idea whatsoever. Coincidentally, if anyone can come up with another dedicated loadout for another 3 Carnifexes to run, I would love to hear it.
Anti-?-Standard Dakkafex, no real upgrades on it. Never used one before, so I am fairly iffy on just how much it can actually do vs a marine squad, light transports, and heavy armor.
Anti-Infantry- Dual Scything Talons, Bio-Plasma, Spine Banks, Thresher Scythe, and most likely Acid Blood, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration.
Anti-Tank- Scything Talons, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, perhaps even Bio-Plasma? Just how far can I push this for anti-tank, and just how many of these would I have to throw at hardened enemies like Baneblades, Monoliths, Landraiders, and some of the sturdier fortifications (I think they still can get up to AV15?)
Tervigons So, I have plenty of models now, but now I need to focus on the primary focus of what these Tervigons are going to be. The way I see it, these things need to be constantly pushing forward, and eventually I am going to have to come in contact with a squad or even enemy vehicles. So, what would you guys suggest as a durable loadout for anti-infantry and anti-vehicle use?
Tyrannofexes So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
SHUPPET wrote: That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.
Well, it could actually be this as well.
(I assume the number given for how many models you need beneath the template is calculated to match damage output of 6x TL Devourer shots fired at BS4 right?) Either way, now that I've had a proper chance to sit down analyze the math properly at the computer, and not just trying to read through it being badly formatted on my cracked ass phone, it looks like beetles are better than Devourers for killing Terminators, Oblits, and Cents, but nothing else. Making them quite a niche choice but does give you a slight boost to coverage you may otherwise lack. A Flyrant shouldn't have too much trouble lining up 3 Cents (or 1 or 2 more if the squad is larger) in a template, he can really get at them from any angle. I really would like to see those calcs for T5 Marines though. SM bikes are very commonly spammed and spammed with Grav. I think its about 4 models under the template to match Dev's though, which is probably unrealistic considering the size of bikes.
I can see that Beetles are not as good as I thought though, and should really only ever be taken on Flying Tyrants (never Tervis or Tyrannos), and only if you know you are going up against ATTEQ, and only at low points where the Haywire Grubs aren't as critical.
All in all, I recede my previous statement, that Beetles should definitely be taken on Flyrants at 500. However I will restate that I don't think Haywire Grubs are very important as they are in bigger games, and can be safely cut for 10 points. That being said, most the time you will probably end up having 10 points to take 1 or the other and both are good utility, the Haywire will probably have more uses, making it take a turn less to bring down anything AV13-14, and outdamaging AV12+ on any template that can catch multiple models. However the ability to ace an extra Centurion (or 2) will definitely be worth the 10 points when it becomes relevant, and will be worthwhile for TEQ in general at lower points, where every single wound will make a big difference as any TEQ will be a large portion of their army.
Once again, thanks heaps for the calcs, I am no good at them and mostly play off feel / maths in my head, tightening up all the little things like this definitely help me take my game up a level (and likely other people reading it too). Big props.
Carnifexes I currently have 3 builds planned for my horde of Carnifexes; Some I have a decent idea of what I can use them for, others, I have no idea whatsoever. Coincidentally, if anyone can come up with another dedicated loadout for another 3 Carnifexes to run, I would love to hear it.
Anti-?-Standard Dakkafex, no real upgrades on it. Never used one before, so I am fairly iffy on just how much it can actually do vs a marine squad, light transports, and heavy armor.
Anti-Infantry- Dual Scything Talons, Bio-Plasma, Spine Banks, Thresher Scythe, and most likely Acid Blood, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration.
Anti-Tank- Scything Talons, Crushing Claws, Adrenal Glands, Bone Mace, perhaps even Bio-Plasma? Just how far can I push this for anti-tank, and just how many of these would I have to throw at hardened enemies like Baneblades, Monoliths, Landraiders, and some of the sturdier fortifications (I think they still can get up to AV15?)
#1: The standard Dakkafex is basically a generalist (anti-everything). Its ranged capabilities work off the same principle as the bulk of the Eldar's firepower, so it should be able to handle anything short of AV13+ (which it can just charge and crack with a battery of S9 hits). I haven't run a Dakkafex yet personally, but there is a reason it is a popular build.
#2: You might want to try a Haruspex instead of this build. Bare-bones, a Haruspex will come out 45 points cheaper yet it should be able to do the same sort of job this build is intended to do (It comes with a S6 AP2 gun and its own form of Regeneration built in along with Acid Blood stock) with a few extra goodies and stat boosts. Also incidentally, a Haruspex also has Crushing Claws which can help it serve as a tank-cracker in a pinch (no pun intended). For an anti-infantry specialist Carnifex, I'd probably lean towards either Talons + Stranglethorn Cannon or Devourers + Stranglethorn Canon.
#3: I'd probably leave off the Bioplasma from this build (confuses its role - it mainly wants to wreck vehicles while Bioplasma tempts you to send it at heavy infantry), but otherwise it should work fine.
As for one last build, I'm sorely tempted to try running a Heavy Venom Cannon + Bioplasma Carnifex just for giggles. Generally though, I run mine stock with no upgrades at all and just use them as can openers. No point in spending a bunch of points on upgrades when all I need them to do is soak firepower and crush a tin can every now and then.
Tervigons So, I have plenty of models now, but now I need to focus on the primary focus of what these Tervigons are going to be. The way I see it, these things need to be constantly pushing forward, and eventually I am going to have to come in contact with a squad or even enemy vehicles. So, what would you guys suggest as a durable loadout for anti-infantry and anti-vehicle use?
Anti-tank: Crushing Claws + Electroshock Grubs (maybe Adrenal Glands if you can spare the points)
Anti-infantry: Miasma Cannon + Shreddershard Beetles
Tyrannofexes So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
Magnetizing would be ideal, but if that isn't possible I'd suggest sticking with the Acid Spray or Acid Spray + Thorax Swarm. Both of mine are equipped with Rupture Cannons and in the previous rules I loved pulling them out to crack armor. Sadly with the new vehicle damage chart, they are basically no more effective against tanks than an Autocannon, but far more expensive. The only time I would run one with a Rupture Cannon now is an Apocalypse battle where they can take advantage of the Valdor Gunbeast Brood formation to get free Tank Hunter, Ignores Cover, and Twin-linked. For regular games, Hive Guard are better suited to hull point stripping, between their greater volume of shots (8 S8 AP4 shots vs 2 S10 AP4 shots) and innate ignores cover.
Tyrannofexes So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
I personally like to kit mine out with a Fleshborer Hive and Electroshock Grub Thorax. the FB Hive mows through infantry and can glance down low armor vehicles, the Thorx has haywire and can help soften up a tougher vehicle up before I charge it.
I have a 2000pts game against Necrons tomorrow that I can tailor to (He is tailoring as well). He's almost assuredly bringing a Monolith if not two with Barges. Necrons I have some of the least experience playing. So far Ive got:
Flyrant w/Electroshock and Devourers, HC for Tervigon
Flyrant w/Electroshock and Devourers
Tyrannofexes So, I always hear what a good anti-infantry platform this guy is, but what would you guys recommend for being a permanent anti-infantry and another for anti-tank?
I personally like to kit mine out with a Fleshborer Hive and Electroshock Grub Thorax. the FB Hive mows through infantry and can glance down low armor vehicles, the Thorx has haywire and can help soften up a tougher vehicle up before I charge it.
Fleshborer is best against some low T MCs like Riptides and Demon Princes, Elite infantry like Centurions, Obliterators, Broadsides, and light armor like War walkers and maybe Land speeders. Acid spray is better in most other situations. Because a Tfex is slow, and thus unlikely to get to the Elite infantry, I tend to go for acid spray.
Tfexes aren't really there for their damage output. Mine tend to do more anti vehicle work, than anything else (E. Grubs). But Primarily TFexes are good as a MC that is really hard to kill. Walk them right across the board, and get linebreaker. Any shooting at the TFex is shooting not at other more vulnerable MC's like Tyrants, Carnifexes or Tervigons.
One exception to this rule. Drop Pod Marines die in droves to Tfexes. I just posted a Batrep (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602237.page) In Which a TFex killed lots of marines, and got me linebreaker and held an objective in my opponent's backfield.
Inexperienced players tend to want to give the Tyrannofex regen, which might work in very small games, but any game above 1500 it is a big waste. If an opponent wants to kill a Tfex, he will do so in 1 or 2 turns, so you are paying 30 points to not really extend its life. If you Tyrannofex dies on Turn 1 or 2, it isn't a bad thing, it means the enemy has been leaving alone your other more critical MCs. Experienced opponents will generally leave the TFex alone until the more important MCs are wiped out.
Iechine wrote: I have a 2000pts game against Necrons tomorrow that I can tailor to (He is tailoring as well). He's almost assuredly bringing a Monolith if not two with Barges. Necrons I have some of the least experience playing. So far Ive got:
Flyrant w/Electroshock and Devourers, HC for Tervigon
Flyrant w/Electroshock and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenals and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenals and Devourers
Carnifex w/Stranglethorn and adrenals
Biovore
Biovore
Am I going overboard with the AP/Vehicle killing tailoring? Would Bioplasma on the Carnifex's be worth it?
No, it's not. And I'd even drop the Stranglethorn for Devs unless you're locked by what the model has.
For the barges, get behind them and then pour all your Flyrant's shots into them. That's honestly your best option - they're beefy. Also, decide before the game if they're allowed the 3++ invul from the Phase Shifter.
Iechine wrote: I have a 2000pts game against Necrons tomorrow that I can tailor to (He is tailoring as well). He's almost assuredly bringing a Monolith if not two with Barges. Necrons I have some of the least experience playing. So far Ive got:
Haruspex w/Adrenal Glands
I would drop Adrenals.
Iechine wrote: Tervigon w/Electroshock and Crushing Claws
Crushing Claws are an expensive upgrade to give to a unit as pricey and slow as the Tervigon, especially one that can't see combat before turn 3 at the absolute earliest. I would drop them.
Iechine wrote: Carnifex w/Adrenals and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenals and Devourers
Carnifex w/Stranglethorn and adrenals
Stranglethorn works well against necron infantry. If he prefers Mech, I would switch to Devourers. Also, I trust you have 1 Devourer to go with the STC.
I wouldn't run the Adrenals, because Necrons can put down MC's fairly easily.
Biovores are super effective against Necron infantry.
Iechine wrote: Am I going overboard with the AP/Vehicle killing tailoring?
Maybe a little. If I were you I would drop the Adrenals and add another Zoey in a separate squad as a warp charge battery for the Tyrants. Getting Warp blast off from one of your tyrants will really help you with mech. My experience is the Monolithes are easier to ignore than to kill.
Iechine wrote: Would Bioplasma on the Carnifex's be worth it?
No. Swapping one carnifex for an Exocrine might be ok, but overall, I think I would stand pat.
As a final thought, you are running 3 flyers. 5 flyers would be better. Dropping the Tervigon for another flyrant and / or a carnifex for another crone, and you will have improved your anti vehicle firepower as well as enhanced your overall survivability.
I was having a bit of a discussion in another thread about competitive tyranids and the feeling was that combined arms Nids are probably the strongest we can get. I am in that stage were I'm updating my models for the new edition. Was hoping to get some feedback on this list, particularly the crones and exocrines as those would be new models to buy.
I don't think a second detachment is worth it for a single Flyrant. I don't think taking our FA flyers is a great idea if your plan isn't just to max out Crones and Flyrants. Crones just aren't really worth it anymore after the nerf they were only just worth it before.
AesSedai wrote: I was having a bit of a discussion in another thread about competitive tyranids and the feeling was that combined arms Nids are probably the strongest we can get. I am in that stage were I'm updating my models for the new edition. Was hoping to get some feedback on this list, particularly the crones and exocrines as those would be new models to buy.
I doubt you want that many Rippers. There are too many things with S6. You will never use up their full Wounds. Also Rippers can't provide intervening models cover for Big bugs, because they are so short. One deep striking squad should be enough. 2 Exocrines are Iffy. Depends completely on your meta. If you run into Tau or Grey Knights a lot, it is probably a good move. In many scenarios, another carnifex would be better. 3 Flyrants alone will win you alot of games. The Zoeys are great mana batteries.
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SHUPPET wrote: I don't think a second detachment is worth it for a single Flyrant. I don't think taking our FA flyers is a great idea if your plan isn't just to max out Crones and Flyrants. Crones just aren't really worth it anymore after the nerf they were only just worth it before.
I disagree with this sentiment entirely. Crone's value is anti-air, a little anti mech, but mainly drawing fire away from Flyrants. Their damage output is less important than their tendency to distract opponents. 2 Crones is better than 1. 3 Crones is iffy in many situations.
Awesome! I miss the days of Apoc with bugs. Since Apoc came out last edition, I haven't played it yet. Just may have to get something going again. This reminds me of the good 'ole days.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Nice battle. With Apocalypse coming to the front again, I want to ask a few questions. I have begun to dig through my most recent purchase and get things reconverted to their proper items, and now comes some good ol' honest speculation. As it stands, I am now the proud owner of 27 shrikes, with 3 full uniform broods of 6 stock/3 rending claw melee shrikes. So, my question is if this will be sufficient to do decent damage deepstruck behind enemy lines? Also, on a subject for boosting the sturdiness of some of my Tyranid Primes, how does it sound to have a couple abandoned Tyrant Guards get some new friends for some toughness 6 goodies for some fairly durable synapse, with some extra boneswords on the Prime for some reasonable lethality at 190pts per unit?
Deepstriking shrikes could be effective if they are supported with enough threats (a la Maximum Threat Overload). As long as you present "bigger" threats to your opponents, your shrikes may actually live to wreak havoc in his backlines. However, if you bring a slow army, then your opponent will have time to deal with your shrikes before returning back to dealing with the rest of your army.
As for the Prime+2 tyrant guards combo, why not just get a tervigon? 7W vs 6W. However, the tervigon can generate more troops and adds warp dice to your warp charge pool. Also, he can get 18" Synapse thanks to free Dominion. But if you don't want to run the tervigon, then yeah, the Prime+guards can work as a poor-man's tervigon substitute.
omerakk wrote: Here's a little Endless Swarm list I messed around with today. 2000pts, 2 CAD
Trygon pops up to provide a tunnel for the swarm to respawn from
Rippers deepstrike back in just to be annoying
Warriors provide mid/back field synapse while supporting with the barbed stranglers
Termagaunts hold rear objectives and mid objectives
Biovores help blast units out of cover
Carnifex's are there because I think they look cool might even be useful vs AV14 under certain circumstances
Not the best thing in the world, but still looks like it could be fun!
You've got too many support units. However, what you really need is another trygon. 1 trygon hole just isn't enough for your Endless Horde. I'd recommend 2, especially at 2K.
Drop 1 zoan and/or venom. Downgrade the Prime to just a regular trygon. You have 2 units of 3 warriors. Downgrade 1 to another unit of rippers and lastly, if you need to, drop 1 biovore and I believe you should be able to fit in a 2nd trygon.
SHUPPET wrote: That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.
Grav-centurions are nasty. They can put out a lot of shots. They can even deal with hordes if they take hurricane bolters. 3 TL-bolters means a potential 6 TL-shots from each Centurion. So even a min-sized unit of Centurions can put out 12 grav shots and 18 bolter shots. On top of that, a good Centurion player would take Tigurius to fish for Gate of Infinity and now you have a potentially fast Centurion unit that can be teleporting each turn. Not going to be easy locking them in place.
The best way to deal with them is just massed dakka from flyrants, dakkafexes and basically your entire army. Another idea is to use mawlocs and burrow up from underneath them (they have no Invuln's).
AesSedai wrote: I was having a bit of a discussion in another thread about competitive tyranids and the feeling was that combined arms Nids are probably the strongest we can get. I am in that stage were I'm updating my models for the new edition. Was hoping to get some feedback on this list, particularly the crones and exocrines as those would be new models to buy.
It's a good list. Flyrant's are the bee's knees in a Tyranid army. They are without a doubt the most flexible unit in the codex. You can't go wrong by running more flyrants.
1 thing I always recommend to all Tyranid players who want to play competitively, consider getting a bastion. It is a force-multiplier that helps to make your army much more durable. Moreover, in this edition, they are scoring as well! So you can lose the unit inside and still claim the nearby objective as long as your opponent doesn't take it over.
I agree that Crones and Flyrants are to work in tandem. I'm not saying Flyrants are better than Crones, just that taking more than 2 or at max 3 Flyrants or any number of Crones who have the same roles (Haywiring Tanks, S6'ing multiple infantry, providing AA, being a FMC) is probably not a good idea unless you are going for a full air attack to knock out anything with AA capability and make up lost points from playing overcosted models, by having them all nearly unkillable. Because newsflash, the Flyrant is wildly overcosted. He just provides support for multiple very critical roles, and does it more efficiently than anything else in the dex, once you have your super mobile cover ignoring Haywire template Synapse S6 spamming rear armor glancing role covered a couple of times, putting more points into these units and not more efficient ones like Carnifexes and others, without a very specific purpose its just going to crumble your list. I'm not saying another Flyrant would be better than the Crones there - I'm saying that taking either option is a bad idea unless he's going all in.
AesSedai wrote: I was having a bit of a discussion in another thread about competitive tyranids and the feeling was that combined arms Nids are probably the strongest we can get. I am in that stage were I'm updating my models for the new edition. Was hoping to get some feedback on this list, particularly the crones and exocrines as those would be new models to buy.
Looks nice! I would build a little different, but that has to do with your local Meta...when I play, a solo Thrope is gift wrapped "First Blood" so I always try to double them out. I also would have taken twin Dakkafexen before Exocrenes (and I save 40 points. ) but some of that is "style".
SHUPPET wrote: That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.
Grav-centurions are nasty. They can put out a lot of shots. They can even deal with hordes if they take hurricane bolters. 3 TL-bolters means a potential 6 TL-shots from each Centurion. So even a min-sized unit of Centurions can put out 12 grav shots and 18 bolter shots. On top of that, a good Centurion player would take Tigurius to fish for Gate of Infinity and now you have a potentially fast Centurion unit that can be teleporting each turn. Not going to be easy locking them in place.
The best way to deal with them is just massed dakka from flyrants, dakkafexes and basically your entire army. Another idea is to use mawlocs and burrow up from underneath them (they have no Invuln's).
I know you were trying to agree with me here, but I have to say - did you even TRY to read the context or what has already been said, before posting Movember 2013's front page of the Tyranid Daily? Yes Cents are badass vs Nids, we all well and truly know this, and Tag never once said otherwise. I know you've decided to interpret a post about having little gameplay experience against Cents as someone in need of your advice, but I really don't think your "advice" is very relevant at all to the context.
Now for starters, the original context was ways to deal with Cents in 500 points. I'm going to assume you somehow managed to miss all the posts both below and above the one you quoted that constantly restated the fact that it was for a 500 pt setting, because I know you aren't suggesting that "all the good players" are taking a list of Tigger + 3 Heavy Bolter Cents and 2 scout squads. Literally the entire list, you can't even fit more than 1 Grav Cannon on the Cents lol. And why the hell would you not just take another full squad of Cents for the same price if you are trying to cover more ground, and with 6 more 2+ wounds instead of 3 in power armor from Tiggy. That's massive at 500, and has a larger damage output to boot.
Now on to the advice less relevant to the size of the game, and assuming you are just sharing that TL-Devs and Mawlocs are statistically the best options for the sake of the guy who was inexperienced, and not to the actual relevant context of the discussion. Thanks heaps by the way. I'm glad to know that massed Dakka from TL-Devs is the best way to kill Cents. That jy2 gem is almost as useful as the actual damage calcs on the same page that show us already stating exactly this, and also showing that Shreddershard Beetles actually out damage the Devs to Cent squads of 2 or more. Or maybe we'll just go with your other amazing suggestion of the Mawloc that was already discussed and ruled put because it can't hit anything in the upper level of the ruins, which is exactly where all "the good players" are going to put them if they see a Mawloc (or anything with AP2 from us). We have to come to them, not the other way around.
And while you are filling us in on all the best ways to deal with Cents, let's definitely not waste time mentioning the actual best option that was brought up in the Exocrine who does 150% the damage of a Flyrant to Centurions for 70 points less, and that's assuming 4+ cover, in open ground he straight triples the Flyrant out shooting 3 cents to death in 2 turns, or killing almost 50% of a squad of any size a turn for every blast that hits.
Sorry to be a sarcastic prick, but sometimes I see a post and it's like... What? I mean if you are going to jump in a conversation and start telling people how to do things, maybe you should at least check you have something fresh to contribute and/or the people you are telling don't clearly know what they are talking about far better than you do, as for the fact they had just crunched it all down in far more depth than "spam Dakkashots and Mawloc has AP2 hurr hurr"
SHUPPET wrote: That being said however, he did say he wanted ways to deal with Grav spam
I interpreted Grav Spam to be a marine Command squad arriving via drop pod or on bikes. I didn't realize it was Grav Centurions. I have very, very little experience with Centurions, though they look like a prime target for a gargoyle tarpit.
Grav-centurions are nasty. They can put out a lot of shots. They can even deal with hordes if they take hurricane bolters. 3 TL-bolters means a potential 6 TL-shots from each Centurion. So even a min-sized unit of Centurions can put out 12 grav shots and 18 bolter shots. On top of that, a good Centurion player would take Tigurius to fish for Gate of Infinity and now you have a potentially fast Centurion unit that can be teleporting each turn. Not going to be easy locking them in place.
The best way to deal with them is just massed dakka from flyrants, dakkafexes and basically your entire army. Another idea is to use mawlocs and burrow up from underneath them (they have no Invuln's).
I know you were trying to agree with me here, but I have to say - did you even TRY to read the context or what has already been said, before posting Movember 2013's front page of the Tyranid Daily? Yes Cents are badass vs Nids, we all well and truly know this, and Tag never once said otherwise. I know you've decided to interpret a post about having little gameplay experience against Cents as someone in need of your advice, but I really don't think your "advice" is very relevant at all to the context.
Now for starters, the original context was ways to deal with Cents in 500 points. I'm going to assume you somehow managed to miss all the posts both below and above the one you quoted that constantly restated the fact that it was for a 500 pt setting, because I know you aren't suggesting that "all the good players" are taking a list of Tigger + 3 Heavy Bolter Cents and 2 scout squads. Literally the entire list, you can't even fit more than 1 Grav Cannon on the Cents lol. And why the hell would you not just take another full squad of Cents for the same price if you are trying to cover more ground, and with 6 more 2+ wounds instead of 3 in power armor from Tiggy. That's massive at 500, and has a larger damage output to boot.
Now on to the advice less relevant to the size of the game, and assuming you are just sharing that TL-Devs and Mawlocs are statistically the best options for the sake of the guy who was inexperienced, and not to the actual relevant context of the discussion. Thanks heaps by the way. I'm glad to know that massed Dakka from TL-Devs is the best way to kill Cents. That jy2 gem is almost as useful as the actual damage calcs on the same page that show us already stating exactly this, and also showing that Shreddershard Beetles actually out damage the Devs to Cent squads of 2 or more. Or maybe we'll just go with your other amazing suggestion of the Mawloc that was already discussed and ruled put because it can't hit anything in the upper level of the ruins, which is exactly where all "the good players" are going to put them if they see a Mawloc (or anything with AP2 from us). We have to come to them, not the other way around.
And while you are filling us in on all the best ways to deal with Cents, let's definitely not waste time mentioning the actual best option that was brought up in the Exocrine who does 150% the damage of a Flyrant to Centurions for 70 points less, and that's assuming 4+ cover, in open ground he straight triples the Flyrant out shooting 3 cents to death in 2 turns, or killing almost 50% of a squad of any size a turn for every blast that hits.
Sorry to be a sarcastic prick, but sometimes I see a post and it's like... What? I mean if you are going to jump in a conversation and start telling people how to do things, maybe you should at least check you have something fresh to contribute and/or the people you are telling don't clearly know what they are talking about far better than you do, as for the fact they had just crunched it all down in far more depth than "spam Dakkashots and Mawloc has AP2 hurr hurr"
@SHUPPET
My response was more of a generalist response, only to tag's "unfamiliarity" with grav-centurions and not to the original poster(s). I skim through some of these comments, especially the ones I felt were already answered by other posters in this thread. Then I see tag's comment that he has very little experience with grav-centurions. The response was to specifically give more info to him than to address whoever/whatever he was replying to.
Sorry if there was any confusion as to the intent of my advice.
Well it just seemed unlikely tome that you missed everything else, but if that is the case then thanks for your contribution. Maybe just check a little before coming off like all the statistical info that was discussed is just irrelevant in comparison to your advice, you can't be in that much of a hurry, every post you type is pretty large. I would more than welcome some fresh ideas to deal with Cents if you have any, gargpit is actually one of the better ones I've heard in a while.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Nice battle. With Apocalypse coming to the front again, I want to ask a few questions. I have begun to dig through my most recent purchase and get things reconverted to their proper items, and now comes some good ol' honest speculation. As it stands, I am now the proud owner of 27 shrikes, with 3 full uniform broods of 6 stock/3 rending claw melee shrikes. So, my question is if this will be sufficient to do decent damage deepstruck behind enemy lines? Also, on a subject for boosting the sturdiness of some of my Tyranid Primes, how does it sound to have a couple abandoned Tyrant Guards get some new friends for some toughness 6 goodies for some fairly durable synapse, with some extra boneswords on the Prime for some reasonable lethality at 190pts per unit?
Deepstriking shrikes could be effective if they are supported with enough threats (a la Maximum Threat Overload). As long as you present "bigger" threats to your opponents, your shrikes may actually live to wreak havoc in his backlines. However, if you bring a slow army, then your opponent will have time to deal with your shrikes before returning back to dealing with the rest of your army.
As for the Prime+2 tyrant guards combo, why not just get a tervigon? 7W vs 6W. However, the tervigon can generate more troops and adds warp dice to your warp charge pool. Also, he can get 18" Synapse thanks to free Dominion. But if you don't want to run the tervigon, then yeah, the Prime+guards can work as a poor-man's tervigon substitute.
Realistically, I was thinking of a 1 to 1 ratio of Primes to Guards.
On the subject of fast...I think I can come up with plenty of options. I'm sitting on;
SHUPPET wrote: Well it just seemed unlikely tome that you missed everything else, but if that is the case then thanks for your contribution. Maybe just check a little before coming off like all the statistical info that was discussed is just irrelevant in comparison to your advice, you can't be in that much of a hurry, every post you type is pretty large. I would more than welcome some fresh ideas to deal with Cents if you have any, gargpit is actually one of the better ones I've heard in a while.
Will do.
With regards to dealing with Centurions on a more general level, we aren't really equipped very well to deal with them. Smallish 3-man units is not as big a prob. However, when they start to go deathstar on us - with Tiggy, buffed-up Chapter Master, 4-5 centurions and possibly Inquisiton allies - that is a conundrum for which there is no easy answer. All you can really do is to focus your entire army to try to take them down. Some strategies include:
- Weight of fire from flyrants and others. Move your flyrant to where the Chapter Master isn't tanking and then shoot directly at the centurions themselves. I'm not sure if this is 100% viable anymore, but in previous edition, if the Chapter Master was on a bike, you could focus-fire to ignore units with cover saves in order to circumvent the CM to get to the centurions.
- Mawlocs.
- Exocrines.
- Try to tarpit them. Depending on their loadout and the psychic powers that the IC's in the units have, this may be easier said than done.
- Spammed flyers may work against them. Get multiple flyers in close to coordinate a multi-assault with several FMC's. You'd probably lose 1 flyer on the turn he hovers, but if you can get all your FMC's (and also nearby units like mawlocs, exocrines, gargoyles, etc.) into assault, you just may wipe out the unit.
- Or just ignore them, lose 1 unit a turn, and then focus on the rest of the Marine army.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Nice battle. With Apocalypse coming to the front again, I want to ask a few questions. I have begun to dig through my most recent purchase and get things reconverted to their proper items, and now comes some good ol' honest speculation. As it stands, I am now the proud owner of 27 shrikes, with 3 full uniform broods of 6 stock/3 rending claw melee shrikes. So, my question is if this will be sufficient to do decent damage deepstruck behind enemy lines? Also, on a subject for boosting the sturdiness of some of my Tyranid Primes, how does it sound to have a couple abandoned Tyrant Guards get some new friends for some toughness 6 goodies for some fairly durable synapse, with some extra boneswords on the Prime for some reasonable lethality at 190pts per unit?
Deepstriking shrikes could be effective if they are supported with enough threats (a la Maximum Threat Overload). As long as you present "bigger" threats to your opponents, your shrikes may actually live to wreak havoc in his backlines. However, if you bring a slow army, then your opponent will have time to deal with your shrikes before returning back to dealing with the rest of your army.
As for the Prime+2 tyrant guards combo, why not just get a tervigon? 7W vs 6W. However, the tervigon can generate more troops and adds warp dice to your warp charge pool. Also, he can get 18" Synapse thanks to free Dominion. But if you don't want to run the tervigon, then yeah, the Prime+guards can work as a poor-man's tervigon substitute.
Realistically, I was thinking of a 1 to 1 ratio of Primes to Guards.
On the subject of fast...I think I can come up with plenty of options. I'm sitting on;
Probably forgot a few here and there, but I definitely can take a look at fielding most of the formations.
Another better investment instead of the Prime + 1 Guard (190-pts, right?) is to just field 4 separate zoanthropes. That's 4 separate units that your opponent would have to waste his firepower to potentially overkill (say you had 1 unit of devastators with 4 missile launchers. Would you want to waste that just to take out 1 zoanthrope or would your rather use them to fire at something else). That's also 4 separate beacons of 18" synapse that can spread out, kill tanks with Warp Blast, buff the army with other psychic powers and which provide 2 warp dice each.
As for shrikes, with your Apoc army, then it shouldn't be a problem. Have at it!
jy2 wrote: Another better investment instead of the Prime + 1 Guard (190-pts, right?) is to just field 4 separate zoanthropes. That's 4 separate units that your opponent would have to waste his firepower to potentially overkill (say you had 1 unit of devastators with 4 missile launchers. Would you want to waste that just to take out 1 zoanthrope or would your rather use them to fire at something else). That's also 4 separate beacons of 18" synapse that can spread out, kill tanks with Warp Blast, buff the army with other psychic powers and which provide 2 warp dice each.
As for shrikes, with your Apoc army, then it shouldn't be a problem. Have at it!
That is true, isn't it. I think I can add a couple more Zoanthropes down the road for rounding out my army. Who knows, I might just do a bit more planning for when I finish up this last little bit of my college career and start seeing you and the rest of the team more often Jim down at the BAO, NOVA, etc. Might decide to humor you and see if I can't set the record for most models and "Assistant Movement Staff" fielded during a tournament.
One bit of speculation before I head off to work; I do not know how most of the rest of you feel about them, but have we all but gotten rid of hope of using the Trygon tunnels for some surprise fun? I actually have been looking at them as a semi-viable way to get Pyrovores to work. Some Devilgaunts, etc, etc, pop in and hose light transports, blobs, etc, etc, and then stick 3 nice juicy templates in the neighborhood to mop up what is left, and also discourage assault, since you will most likely practically have to charge both units in such a small area.
Sorry about my last post jy2, was 4 am for me and I misinterpreted the tone of your post.
You are right, Cents are the most cost effective unit against us and play to all our weaknesses. I'm considering taking a Garg tarpit, but in MC heavy its a surefire target for anti-infantry weaponry and I worry it will get cut down to size before it can do its job. Also, 180 pts for 30 Gargs is 170 for an Exocrine.
I kit out Stone Crushers as Dakkafexes because the model is dope. I don't know about stone Crushers actually rules however, I'm not a fan of Carnifexen as dedicated anti-tank on a slow ass MC body. I see him as a dakka platform, who already threatens tanks just by being there. I don't know what stone Crushers upgrade does but unless it adds a large number of attacks or a BlackMace-esque AOE, it's probably a bad idea. What DO they do?
Also Ork Traktor is Skyfire no interceptor. It means making them more vulnerable to the rest of the army but putting your FMCs in jump mode largely denies the points put into the guns. However while it doesn't tear our FMCs out of the sky it does deny mobility, although the amount of grounding checks + units that can hammer a Flyrant in CC from Orks, already means I was fairly cautious against them with my Flyrants and not swooping them willy nilly backfield regardless.
Also, there is no "just Orks". They already had a great match up against us and I believe it just got better. I have more trouble against some "friendly" Orks list than I do against "competitive" Marines
One bit of speculation before I head off to work; I do not know how most of the rest of you feel about them, but have we all but gotten rid of hope of using the Trygon tunnels for some surprise fun? I actually have been looking at them as a semi-viable way to get Pyrovores to work. Some Devilgaunts, etc, etc, pop in and hose light transports, blobs, etc, etc, and then stick 3 nice juicy templates in the neighborhood to mop up what is left, and also discourage assault, since you will most likely practically have to charge both units in such a small area.
Unless you also bring something to re-roll reserve roll, i wouldn't bother. 2 times out of 3, you won't be able to use the tunnel. (if they enter reserve before the trygon or at the same time) Without re-roll, the tunnel is only reliable for respawning units (endless swarm and skyblight gargoyles)
Flyrants are a different beast against Orks and need to be played as such, backline Synapse and dakka, lining up multiple kans or transports with Haywire or getting rear AV dakka will be harder with the traktor up tho, as it stops the Flyrants going mobile when the two armies clash turn 2 and the Orks can no longer afford to ignore the rest of your army. I'm still not sure how the traktor will affect this match up and whether or not he will be worth his points in board control - I suspect he'll be good just to support their mech. Tyrannofex so good vs Orks if you need a way to deal with them.
foto69man wrote: Also, anyone worried for their Winged Dakka Tyrants with the Ork Traktor thingy coming out? I know it's still Orks shooting it and all...
Actually, those cannons are crewed by Grots and thus fire at BS: 3 rather than the Orky BS: 2. I personally probably won't have to worry about them too badly, given our local shop is currently suffering from a massive influx of Imperial Knights and similar "small" super heavy vehicles and has next to no flyers outside of the occasional storm raven/talon. As such, our local Orks will probably be going with anti-tank guns rather than Traktor Cannons (though my little brother might build one just for fighting me).
Still, I think the guns won't be too big of a problem on their own. For one, flying monsters can easily get a 2+ jink save whilst within range of a Venomthrope. In the first few turns, they can simply jink to soak up the hits and then unload on the guns once they come into range. Secondly, the crew have horrible leadership with no real way to improve it (can babysit with a character, but presumably they won't benefit from Mob Rule seeing as Grots don't have it), meaning they are highly vulnerable to both pinning and plain-old running away from failed moral. The Grot crew also have no save of their own, so pretty much any S6+ guns will wreck havoc on them.
If push comes to shove, one can just keep monsters in swoop mode and completely bypass the grounding test modifier entirely.
One bit of speculation before I head off to work; I do not know how most of the rest of you feel about them, but have we all but gotten rid of hope of using the Trygon tunnels for some surprise fun? I actually have been looking at them as a semi-viable way to get Pyrovores to work. Some Devilgaunts, etc, etc, pop in and hose light transports, blobs, etc, etc, and then stick 3 nice juicy templates in the neighborhood to mop up what is left, and also discourage assault, since you will most likely practically have to charge both units in such a small area.
From experience, the Trygon Tunnels are great in Apocalypse where you have complete control over your reserves and have much larger boards to cross. In regular games... I don't know. I tend to roll a bit high on my reserves so everything tends to come in turn 2, leaving nothing for the tunnel (I really wish they could be used to put infantry into ongoing reserves - would allow for some fun shenanigans with jumping between tunnels).
SHUPPET wrote: I kit out Stone Crushers as Dakkafexes because the model is dope. I don't know about stone Crushers actually rules however, I'm not a fan of Carnifexen as dedicated anti-tank on a slow ass MC body. I see him as a dakka platform, who already threatens tanks just by being there. I don't know what stone Crushers upgrade does but unless it adds a large number of attacks or a BlackMace-esque AOE, it's probably a bad idea. What DO they do?
Also Ork Traktor is Skyfire no interceptor. It means making them more vulnerable to the rest of the army but putting your FMCs in jump mode largely denies the points put into the guns. However while it doesn't tear our FMCs out of the sky it does deny mobility, although the amount of grounding checks + units that can hammer a Flyrant in CC from Orks, already means I was fairly cautious against them with my Flyrants and not swooping them willy nilly backfield regardless.
Also, there is no "just Orks". They already had a great match up against us and I believe it just got better. I have more trouble against some "friendly" Orks list than I do against "competitive" Marines
Stone crushers have a 2+ save, regeneration (and re-roll 1's when regenerating), and add +1 to building damage results. For 195 they're a bit pricier than a stock fex with cclaws and regen, but the 2+ save really helps out as does their super regeneration.
SHUPPET wrote: Well it just seemed unlikely tome that you missed everything else, but if that is the case then thanks for your contribution. Maybe just check a little before coming off like all the statistical info that was discussed is just irrelevant in comparison to your advice, you can't be in that much of a hurry, every post you type is pretty large. I would more than welcome some fresh ideas to deal with Cents if you have any, gargpit is actually one of the better ones I've heard in a while.
Will do.
With regards to dealing with Centurions on a more general level, we aren't really equipped very well to deal with them. Smallish 3-man units is not as big a prob. However, when they start to go deathstar on us - with Tiggy, buffed-up Chapter Master, 4-5 centurions and possibly Inquisiton allies - that is a conundrum for which there is no easy answer. All you can really do is to focus your entire army to try to take them down. Some strategies include:
- Weight of fire from flyrants and others. Move your flyrant to where the Chapter Master isn't tanking and then shoot directly at the centurions themselves. I'm not sure if this is 100% viable anymore, but in previous edition, if the Chapter Master was on a bike, you could focus-fire to ignore units with cover saves in order to circumvent the CM to get to the centurions.
- Mawlocs.
- Exocrines.
- Try to tarpit them. Depending on their loadout and the psychic powers that the IC's in the units have, this may be easier said than done.
- Spammed flyers may work against them. Get multiple flyers in close to coordinate a multi-assault with several FMC's. You'd probably lose 1 flyer on the turn he hovers, but if you can get all your FMC's (and also nearby units like mawlocs, exocrines, gargoyles, etc.) into assault, you just may wipe out the unit.
- Or just ignore them, lose 1 unit a turn, and then focus on the rest of the Marine army.
Since gate got moved to Santic, is Tiggy still the force multiplier that he once was in 6th? I was thinking Coteaz would be the preferred escort. The only Centstar player I know takes 2 Land Raiders, 2 centurion squads, and Draigo, and that has been his list for years. I haven't played him for logistical reasons, and because he only plays 2000 points and Kill points, so he has a fixed advantage especially against tyranids. I figured I would try him once I got up to 3 Crones and an Exocrine, or bring my Eldar allies. I figure he can't be a terribly good player if he has to put that many restrictions on his games.
Also, assault with FMC's isn't a terribly viable option anymore. You've got to land for a full turn before you assault. Better off vector striking and throwing warp lances / general wounds at them. 7th has really changed the way we have to play our FMCs.
Yeah MCs and FMCs are definitely worse. We are paying a lot for that WS7 and 4 attacks on a Flyrant for it to see very little use now.
That AP2 cover ignoring Vektor Strike is definitely a good tool for Cents too. Especially since you can splitfire and point the Dakka somewhere more effecient. I guess that's a quasi buff for the Flyrant even if the Crone copped an undeniable nerf.
Smash changes also hurt us bad. I feel like we need to capitalise on what we gained, Master of Ambush is game changing if unreliable, I feel like having the 25% chance (or whatever it is) to practically autowin is worth building to take advantage of even if it doesn't happen more than it does. Fexes capitalise on this better than anything else, and go hand in hand with making up for the MASSIVE nerf in smash, Carnifexes being more than capable of acing any vehicle in CC.
To summarise, 7th changed a lot for us and I think we are better playing to what got better than struggling to make what got worse (namely Skyblight as a good example) still work without taking the proper coverage inside our list. Smash was nerfed, we can either play the same lists with less options for mech, or take Carnifexes that offer that same coverage while also receiving a quasi-buff in the fact that we have a re-rollable chance to give 4x Carnifexes AND something else Infiltrate. 800 pts of short range slaughter hitting turn 1 combined with Flyrant dakka. Twin linked Warlord traits benefit us more than anybody. And it is by no means relies on it either, Dakkafexes just got so much more important this edition, the traits are just an added bonus.
7th also helped to give Zoeys an extra use or two as well, and they now play very well to what we do best.
I think 7th made us a bit more cohesive as an army to be honest (not necessarily stronger, just helped divide units into their roles and play styles).
(although situations may call for something a bit more specialised)
Having Dominion makes Zoeys always have a useful power. 
too soon man too soon
While they shoot at Zoeys, I can close in. 
