Might not be the popular opinion, but I think I would trade all these FMC buffs to keep the ability to glide down from the air and assault in the same turn. It's something I did every game and really justified for me the fact that two Flyrants fill up to a third of my points. Now it feels like a lot of those points are going unused on that crazy high WS and number of attacks.
Same applies to me for Crone to me too, perhaps even more so. Gliding down, flaming and charging later on in a game feels like it was intended for the unit. Especially with the limited use missiles, and no torrent on the flamer. At least Flyrants have decent survivability and can still do all it's usual damage if it glides down a turn early (still don't know how plausible this is), the Crone however does not, and only has one, template-ranged gun left by the time you are looking to assault, and has to spend the turn not VS'ing just to pull off a charge.
I guess I'll have to see how the extra airborne FMC survivability plays out in a game. Grounding changes do a lot for us, and the mouth cannon being able to hit open topped helps balance the scales for us against some bad units to be matched up against (although I think DE is still an auto lose regardless). I haven't seen a copy of 7th yet, how does it work? Is every model inside hit with the template?
So from an outsiders perspective, what do 'Nids have to offer as an Ally? A whole new world has been opened up and all of your Tyrants, Crones and 'Thropes can start slagging up the joint and hanging out with bad influences.
What strengths of the 'Nid book can be ported over to help out an Ally?
- Rippers are cheap, Objective-Secured minimum points for entry that can also Deep Strike, are largely immune to Synapse and are just all-round fantastic Troops to have now.
- Massed S6 firepower from Brainleeches
- Massed FMC spam, especially if you can ally a Skyblight
- Relatively good generators for Warp Charge
- Massed barrage weaponry from Biovores
As long as the 'Nid army can be deployed and moved up as a relatively independant entity, you can bypass the problems that come with Apocalyptic allies.
Any obvious standouts?
PrinceRaven wrote: Yes, Hive Crones have just catapulted to one of the best units in the book.
I don't see that.
They are ok, but they aren't great anymore.
The unit that benefits the most is the shooty FMC - our dakka flyrants. Crones aren't really shooty. Their best asset was in their vector-strikes, which has been greatly nerfed.
However, what I do like about them are their ability to put the hurt on kabalite warriors in venoms. If it f*cks with DE, then I'm all for it.
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SHUPPET wrote: Might not be the popular opinion, but I think I would trade all these FMC buffs to keep the ability to glide down from the air and assault in the same turn. It's something I did every game and really justified for me the fact that two Flyrants fill up to a third of my points. Now it feels like a lot of those points are going unused on that crazy high WS and number of attacks.
Same applies to me for Crone to me too, perhaps even more so. Gliding down, flaming and charging later on in a game feels like it was intended for the unit. Especially with the limited use missiles, and no torrent on the flamer. At least Flyrants have decent survivability and can still do all it's usual damage if it glides down a turn early (still don't know how plausible this is), the Crone however does not, and only has one, template-ranged gun left by the time you are looking to assault, and has to spend the turn not VS'ing just to pull off a charge.
I guess I'll have to see how the extra airborne FMC survivability plays out in a game. Grounding changes do a lot for us, and the mouth cannon being able to hit open topped helps balance the scales for us against some bad units to be matched up against (although I think DE is still an auto lose regardless). I haven't seen a copy of 7th yet, how does it work? Is every model inside hit with the template?
Personally, I have never had a large amount of success with flyrants in assault. It's almost always better to keep them in the air and just keep shooting with them.
However, there are times when you do need to assault with them:
1. To kill a unit on an objective near the end of the game.
2. To kill an AV14 vehicle. Well, the nerf to FMC's and also the nerf to Smash has made this especially bad for the bugs.
3. To try to hide him in combat to protect against heavy skyfire shooting.
It's just something we are going to have to get used to, just like not being able to assault the turn you disembark from rhinos between 5th and 6th editions. The fact that it's harder to ground FMC's now is the main reason why you will still see the Tyranid Airforce around.
Units inside an open-topped transport takes D6 hits from a temp weapon at the weapons Strength and AP. So you breath on a venom, you could potentially kill both the venom and the unit inside as well.
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You know what's funny?
Buildings that are claimed are now scoring.
That makes my venom-in-a-box (bastion) tactic even more funny. LOL!!!
PrinceRaven wrote: Yes, Hive Crones have just catapulted to one of the best units in the book.
I don't see that.
They are ok, but they aren't great anymore.
The unit that benefits the most is the shooty FMC - our dakka flyrants. Crones aren't really shooty. Their best asset was in their vector-strikes, which has been greatly nerfed.
However, what I do like about them are their ability to put the hurt on kabalite warriors in venoms. If it f*cks with DE, then I'm all for it.
Ok is pretty much the best we've got outside of Flyrants, Venomthropes and Skyblight Gargoyles.
The use I see for them is going around firing Tentaclids and drooling on things, then at the end of the game gliding down to score objectives, the changes to grounding tests have made them pretty durable and their Haywire shots are going to be badly needed when vehiclehammer comes back with a vengeance.
You know what's funny?
Buildings that are claimed are now scoring.
That makes my venom-in-a-box (bastion) tactic even more funny. LOL!!!
I foolishly bought two Tyranid flyer kits before the new edition was out and now I am not sure what to build out of them. Are two Hive Crones still worth taking in a meta with few flyers? Vector Strike seems to be terribly nerfed.
Flyers will still be prevalent. Flying vehicles have actually gotten much better so you will probably see more people actually running them. That means hive crones are still necessary. The VS have been nerfed against ground units but are still effective against air units.
There are still some very powerful tools that are needed in 7th Ed. and Skyblight gives you that:
1. Objectives Secured (OS) scoring. Not many units can contest now. You NEED units with OS (or rather, they provide you with an incredible advantage).
2. Mobile scoring/contesting. Our flyers can't contest anymore. Tradition ground troops are very slow. You NEED mobile scoring/contesting. With gargoyles, you can practically deepstrike them onto objectives.
3. Recycled troops. Now what's better than OS troops with good mobility? OS troops with good mobility who keeps on coming back. It's the gargoyles that will make skyblight still very good nowadays.
Zoans are going to be priceless for us as a cheap way of upping our total Mastery Level, what are people's thoughts about squad sizes, run them all singles units of 2....?
rigeld2 wrote: Just saw that poison changed and now you need a higher STR to get rerolls rather than equal?
Not as big a loss for our bugs as it will be for Nurgle armies. I'm not sweating it.
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Eldercaveman wrote: Zoans are going to be priceless for us as a cheap way of upping our total Mastery Level, what are people's thoughts about squad sizes, run them all singles units of 2....?
I'd still run them in units of 1. Why pay 100-150pts for Mastery Level 2 when it only costs you 50-pts? Besides, the minute they peep their head out to shoot at any enemy, they are toast. And now that they are scoring, hiding them in a support role makes them even better.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Will the gargoyles get objective secured even if you build an unbound list?
Yes, they have their own set of rules that will override the BRB (basic rulebook). Keep in mind that the specific always override the more general. The BRB have the general rules. The skyblight formation has a much more specific rule, no matter if you are running Bound or Unbound.
I actually have found the Harpy is a lot better than people give it credit for.
I think 3 units of 1 Zoans and 2 units of 1 Venoms will be my staple elite slot from now on, we tend to play 2k+ plus where I am, so plenty of points to throw in else where.
It's a cheap FMC that can be used to draw enemy fire.
I don't have my codex with me right now so can't verify, but harpies can drop off spore mines. Since everything is scoring right now, that could potentially be more free scoring units. Can someone please help verify the rules for the spore mines in the codex? Thanks.
It's a scary world out there now, with summoning lists and Imperial Knights, and d strength. To combat this, I'm trying out:
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs Flyrant w/Devs
16 Termagant
15 Termagant
Hive Crone
Biovore Brood (2)
Hierophant w/Bioplasma Torrent
The Venomthrope embarked version is definitely tougher and may end up more competitive, but this one packs an "alpha" thats very alarming with the 12 inch movement + hellstorm template. It takes a ton of S10 Ap1/2 shots to bring him down. And potentially launching spore mines to claim objectives from across the board sounds comical.
It's a cheap FMC that can be used to draw enemy fire.
I don't have my codex with me right now so can't verify, but harpies can drop off spore mines. Since everything is scoring right now, that could potentially be more free scoring units. Can someone please help verify the rules for the spore mines in the codex? Thanks.
"living bomb: spore mine clusters are non-scoring, non-denial units. ..."
Iechine wrote: It's a scary world out there now, with summoning lists and Imperial Knights, and d strength. To combat this, I'm trying out:
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs Flyrant w/Devs
16 Termagant
15 Termagant
Hive Crone
Biovore Brood (2)
Hierophant w/Bioplasma Torrent
The Venomthrope embarked version is definitely tougher and may end up more competitive, but this one packs an "alpha" thats very alarming with the 12 inch movement + hellstorm template. It takes a ton of S10 Ap1/2 shots to bring him down. And potentially launching spore mines to claim objectives from across the board sounds comical.
Unfortunately, you've got no backfield synapse for your troops.
I'd drop 1 biovore for 1 zoanthrope. This also gives you the advantage of +2 psychic levels and a scoring synapse.
Then drop a few gants for Electrogrubs on your flyrants.
Iechine wrote: It's a scary world out there now, with summoning lists and Imperial Knights, and d strength. To combat this, I'm trying out:
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs Flyrant w/Devs
16 Termagant
15 Termagant
Hive Crone
Biovore Brood (2)
Hierophant w/Bioplasma Torrent
The Venomthrope embarked version is definitely tougher and may end up more competitive, but this one packs an "alpha" thats very alarming with the 12 inch movement + hellstorm template. It takes a ton of S10 Ap1/2 shots to bring him down. And potentially launching spore mines to claim objectives from across the board sounds comical.
Unfortunately, you've got no backfield synapse for your troops.
I'd drop 1 biovore for 1 zoanthrope. This also gives you the advantage of +2 psychic levels and a scoring synapse.
Then drop a few gants for Electrogrubs on your flyrants.
Do you agree the Bioplasma is more competitive than the embarked venomthrope?
And for rules clarification...if my Flyrants jink while within 6 inchs of the Hierophant do they have a 2+ save at that point?
Surely you'd agree Heirophants are a massive over costed waste of space? The model is gorgeous, but damn is expensive when a Imperial knight at half the price can annihilate it in combat?
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Surely you'd agree Heirophants are a massive over costed waste of space? The model is gorgeous, but damn is expensive when a Imperial knight at half the price can annihilate it in combat?
16-32 s10 shots can certainly hinder the knight getting to the hierophant.
That said, a swooping harridan is a far better counter punch to knight titans.
Do you agree the Bioplasma is more competitive than the embarked venomthrope?
And for rules clarification...if my Flyrants jink while within 6 inchs of the Hierophant do they have a 2+ save at that point?
I don't look at it as more or less competitive. It's more like, what do you want your army to do? Do you want a more defensive army or a more offensive one?
But my opinion is that force-multiplication is always better than pure offense (as long as the support units aren't overdone). The venom on the hierophant is a force-multiplier. It is more useful to the army on the whole than just any 1 gun. However, keep in mind that there is a weakness. As the gargantuan counts as open-topped, you can potentially kill the venomthrope just by flaming the GMC.
Yes, he will have 2+ cover by jinking within range of the hierophant (with a venom embarked).
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Khaine's Wrath wrote: Surely you'd agree Heirophants are a massive over costed waste of space? The model is gorgeous, but damn is expensive when a Imperial knight at half the price can annihilate it in combat?
No it's not. It is actually quite good, especially now that D-weapons have been nerfed. It'll easily dismantle a IK in combat, thanks mainly to the fact that it has Lash Whips and will be striking first. He lives to kill off units like that. What he doesn't want to do is to get into combat with a unit of 30 termagants or 30 zombies.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: Surely you'd agree Heirophants are a massive over costed waste of space? The model is gorgeous, but damn is expensive when a Imperial knight at half the price can annihilate it in combat?
16-32 s10 shots can certainly hinder the knight getting to the hierophant.
That said, a swooping harridan is a far better counter punch to knight titans.
I actually played against the Harridan with my daemons. While he is good, he isn't the be-all-end-all of Tyranid units. I basically ignored him all game and he never made his points back. Yes, he was basically shooting all game, but with 4+ cover or better saves from daemons, he wasn't really doing all that much damage, even against my 3 soulgrinders.
Now that I think about it, we went to Turn 7. That means my army survived 84 S10 shots. Wow!
Khaine's Wrath wrote: He's still over 800 points though right? For two bio cannons.....
Just not worth it,
The thing is, he can potentially kill 3 units a turn. Fire 6 S10 shots at 2 different tanks and then assault a 3rd completely different unit. BTW, with his upgrades, you can give him more guns like 6 twin-linked S7 skyfire shots or a huge hellstorm template. Now you are looking at a unit that can potentially kill up to 4 or 5 different units a turn.
And he's quite hard to kill with 2+, T9, 10W and regeneration. Only Destroyer weapons can dependably kill him (at least in the previous edition before they got nerfed). That means you can reliably depend on him to kill potentially several units a turn. That starts to add up.
The thing is that you can only take one upgrade, so I have to choose between the venomthrope assault vehicle combo or the hellstorm template. S5 AP3 Hellstorm = a lot of dead SM.
I'm checking out the other upgrades, and Incendiary Ichor stands out as pretty solid for fighting super-heavy walkers, especially Knights. Everytime the Hierophant takes a wound, a Knight would take an immediate D3 glancing hits.
If you imagine that the Knight is typically causing D3 wounds for each hit, he's going to receive triple that damage in return on average. It effectively makes attacking the Hierophant a guaranteed suicide run for a Knight.
Perhaps a bit niche, but it's a nice counter if you know what you're up against.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: He's still over 800 points though right? For two bio cannons.....
Just not worth it,
The thing is, he can potentially kill 3 units a turn. Fire 6 S10 shots at 2 different tanks and then assault a 3rd completely different unit.BTW, with his upgrades, you can give him more guns like 6 twin-linked S7 skyfire shots or a huge hellstorm template. Now you are looking at a unit that can potentially kill up to 4 or 5 different units a turn.
And he's quite hard to kill with 2+, T9, 10W and regeneration. Only Destroyer weapons can dependably kill him (at least in the previous edition before they got nerfed). That means you can reliably depend on him to kill potentially several units a turn. That starts to add up.
Bolded emphasis mine. Actually, the rules do not state that. A unit can only charge a target of it's shooting attacks if it fired a ranged weapon. So 2 units/turn, but the stomp table gives you a shot at serious collateral damage.
To the stomp debate about hitting non engaged units - the diagram illustrates 18 ultramarines getting hit - this in no way could be a single unit so it's implicit that it's intended for GCs and SHWs to be able to do it. Plus, it's how the rules read too so there's that.
xttz wrote: I'm checking out the other upgrades, and Incendiary Ichor stands out as pretty solid for fighting super-heavy walkers, especially Knights. Everytime the Hierophant takes a wound, a Knight would take an immediate D3 glancing hits.
If you imagine that the Knight is typically causing D3 wounds for each hit, he's going to receive triple that damage in return on average. It effectively makes attacking the Hierophant a guaranteed suicide run for a Knight.
Perhaps a bit niche, but it's a nice counter if you know what you're up against.
That makes my venom-in-a-box (bastion) tactic even more funny. LOL!!!
Ahem. Venom-in-a-box? I still claim the BastionThrope tactic as my own!
Joking aside, I hope we'll see more bugs from you in 7th edition... I havent seen any Nids from you since the new book came out. But, here's my next idea. Something I came up with before everyone decided not to use Stronghold assault, but is now super awesome. I present... the Box of Terror!
It's simple really. Take 20 Genestealers, no upgrades. Buy a Bastion with an escape hatch. Stick that Bastion exactly at the halfway point of the table on the edge of your table half. Point escape hatch at your opponent. Escape hatch 12" away in your deployment zone. Infiltrate your 20 genestealers inside. You can't assault turn 1, but you have a scoring Bastion that is now an assault vehicle. Simply put, anything your opponent puts within 18" of the bastion, which is in the dead center of the board, is now subject to clawed murder. See below:
That's the terror threat range of the "Box of Terrors" With Maelstrom of War missions, board control must be a consistent thing. Well, that's a huge chunk of the board that most units are going to stay the F*** away from! Really, everything except Imperial Knights and Land Raiders are going to be terrified of this. The Escape hatch is there for added utility once you "open the box". Basically, use it to chuck a Venomthrope upfield to support all your advancing Flyrants, other units, and the Genestealers themselves.
Remember this if it actually works, Box of Terrors!
I really, really like the idea from a gimmicky point of view, but there are a few problems. 1) Buildings are less survivable in 7th than 6th. Partially because of meta shifts. 2) Genesteelers suck. Overcosts and no grenades. Die to overwatch. 3) You need a broodlord. In 7th, Pinned units don't get to overwatch. That is huge. 4) I would reduce the size of the unit. Broodlord + 7 Genesteelers should be able to kill most things. 5) I would include Hormagaunts, Raveners, or warriors with this list to provide a reload to the gun that is the midfield bastion. 6) Be worried about flamers. They now do D6 wounds to the occupants of a bastion. So we are talking 4D6 wounds from 2 Deep striking crisis suites. 7) I think most tactics for tyranids should be built around "Master of Ambush" Warlord trait, so I would be curious what sort of list you would run your box of terror with, and how it would take advantage of infiltrating genesteelers + Flyrant + 3 other units.
Overall, I like the idea, and will give it a shot against my buddies when I get the chance.
Check the 7th ed deployment rules - they now state fortifications deploy in your deployment zone. Not sure if the SA rules over-ride this, but I think this nerfs your strat (a little).
zerosignal wrote: Check the 7th ed deployment rules - they now state fortifications deploy in your deployment zone. Not sure if the SA rules over-ride this, but I think this nerfs your strat (a little).
Yes, you appear to be correct. Sigh. Well that was a fun idea for a few hours, but it really does nerf the whole thing doesn't it? Ah well. Now, that's more of a good idea to remember in battle than a strategy to base your list around.
With how scoring works things like mawlocs and tyrrofexes really get a boost in this edition. Oh, your scouts are on that objective? Booosh! Mawloc takes it now. Oh, there's an objective midfield? Grraah! T6 6W 2+ Save t-fex gets it. Both cannot contest BF troops, of course, but other than that they'll be useful outside of their normal trickery.
TftD takes on a whole new usefulness for getting to different objectives later in the game, too.
Loving the idea of mawlocs in this edition. Troops will be everywhere. Most are T4. So much munching possible! Auto hits, 2's to wound, ignore armour and cover? Yes please!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh..... Terror from the deep..... Got it!
It's definitely going to be hard outscoring her. We're both using a 'TAC' list not tailored, but mine isnt cut out so much for the new Maelstrom missions unless I really luck out.
That makes my venom-in-a-box (bastion) tactic even more funny. LOL!!!
Ahem. Venom-in-a-box? I still claim the BastionThrope tactic as my own!
Joking aside, I hope we'll see more bugs from you in 7th edition... I havent seen any Nids from you since the new book came out. But, here's my next idea. Something I came up with before everyone decided not to use Stronghold assault, but is now super awesome. I present... the Box of Terror!
It's simple really. Take 20 Genestealers, no upgrades. Buy a Bastion with an escape hatch. Stick that Bastion exactly at the halfway point of the table on the edge of your table half. Point escape hatch at your opponent. Escape hatch 12" away in your deployment zone. Infiltrate your 20 genestealers inside. You can't assault turn 1, but you have a scoring Bastion that is now an assault vehicle. Simply put, anything your opponent puts within 18" of the bastion, which is in the dead center of the board, is now subject to clawed murder. See below:
That's the terror threat range of the "Box of Terrors" With Maelstrom of War missions, board control must be a consistent thing. Well, that's a huge chunk of the board that most units are going to stay the F*** away from! Really, everything except Imperial Knights and Land Raiders are going to be terrified of this. The Escape hatch is there for added utility once you "open the box". Basically, use it to chuck a Venomthrope upfield to support all your advancing Flyrants, other units, and the Genestealers themselves.
Remember this if it actually works, Box of Terrors!
This is my version of your "Box-of-Terror".
It involves this big guy:
Along with 20 of these guys:
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Iechine wrote: The thing is that you can only take one upgrade, so I have to choose between the venomthrope assault vehicle combo or the hellstorm template. S5 AP3 Hellstorm = a lot of dead SM.
It's going to depend on your meta. If in your area, there are a lot of marine players, then the template upgrade may be the TAC way to go.
In my meta, there usually are a lot of flyers so I normally equip my bio-titan with skyfiring guns as a TAC option.
The venom upgrade is a fine defensive upgrade, especially if you play in a shooty meta or if you don't know what you are going up against (as in tournaments).
Khaine's Wrath wrote: He's still over 800 points though right? For two bio cannons.....
Just not worth it,
The thing is, he can potentially kill 3 units a turn. Fire 6 S10 shots at 2 different tanks and then assault a 3rd completely different unit.BTW, with his upgrades, you can give him more guns like 6 twin-linked S7 skyfire shots or a huge hellstorm template. Now you are looking at a unit that can potentially kill up to 4 or 5 different units a turn.
And he's quite hard to kill with 2+, T9, 10W and regeneration. Only Destroyer weapons can dependably kill him (at least in the previous edition before they got nerfed). That means you can reliably depend on him to kill potentially several units a turn. That starts to add up.
Bolded emphasis mine. Actually, the rules do not state that. A unit can only charge a target of it's shooting attacks if it fired a ranged weapon. So 2 units/turn, but the stomp table gives you a shot at serious collateral damage.
To the stomp debate about hitting non engaged units - the diagram illustrates 18 ultramarines getting hit - this in no way could be a single unit so it's implicit that it's intended for GCs and SHWs to be able to do it. Plus, it's how the rules read too so there's that.
You are right. I haven't played the new Apoc yet (though I have played Escalation) so this is one of the changes that I missed. Back in the previous edition of Apoc, you could shoot and charge entirely different units.
So now, a 3rd gun bought as an upgrade to the hierophant makes a lot more sense. It would give you more options in terms of assault.
tetrisphreak wrote: With how scoring works things like mawlocs and tyrrofexes really get a boost in this edition. Oh, your scouts are on that objective? Booosh! Mawloc takes it now. Oh, there's an objective midfield? Grraah! T6 6W 2+ Save t-fex gets it. Both cannot contest BF troops, of course, but other than that they'll be useful outside of their normal trickery.
TftD takes on a whole new usefulness for getting to different objectives later in the game, too.
The T-fex is ok, but the mawloc is really useful. What you need in this game nowadays is mobile scoring. The mawloc is one of the more mobile units in our army.
I really like the idea of the Mawloc, but in the five games I played with it, the worm hit its intended target only once. In those games it killed five necron warriors, one plague marine and 10 of my gaunts ( yes, I keep a tally). Am I missing something? Are Lictors mandatory in that case? I hate Lictors...
At the moment I'm wondering how worth it a harridan would be. I think they're a great choice, but if I were to buy one it would literally be the only thing this year I buy. So expensive! Right now I'm limiting myself to only in codex options. The hierophant assault vehicle sure is nasty though! I'm always considering a Mawloc, they do seem pretty decent with their "quick scoring" potential until I can field the Skyblight.
Well you've got a 1/3 chance of hitting dead on, so dont be surprised you get burned. I usually run 2, and now that they score, they are a cheap, high threat level scoring unit thats hard to kill.
At the moment I'm wondering how worth it a harridan would be. I think they're a great choice, but if I were to buy one it would literally be the only thing this year I buy. So expensive!
For what its worth, my first Aliexpress experience was with my Hierophant and was really surprised how thoroughly pleased with the service I was.
Not to jump topics but any theories on how Shadows will be changed in the new edition. Boost to the deny rolls or will it damage enemy casting directly? How are tyranids faring in the psychic phase?
dmthomas7 wrote: Not to jump topics but any theories on how Shadows will be changed in the new edition. Boost to the deny rolls or will it damage enemy casting directly? How are tyranids faring in the psychic phase?
Honestly? My guess is that it's going to do nothing but affect the psyker's LD when testing for Perils.
But if it does anything beyond that, consider it a bonus.
Tyranids are decent in the psychic phase. Grey knights, Daemons and Eldar will be the top-dog psychic armies. Tyranids will be following right behind them.
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TychoTerziev wrote: I really like the idea of the Mawloc, but in the five games I played with it, the worm hit its intended target only once. In those games it killed five necron warriors, one plague marine and 10 of my gaunts ( yes, I keep a tally). Am I missing something? Are Lictors mandatory in that case? I hate Lictors...
I wouldn't measure the mawloc by its killing power. If it kills things, I consider that a bonus.
The true worth of the mawloc is in his almost unlimited mobility and the fact that he forces your opponent to focus on him, thus allowing the rest of your army to survive for at least another turn.
So, this is a dumb list, but I'm only a fan of some of the Nids models. I want to make Nidzilla because GW refuses to make "Midzilla" a viable army list (entirely composed of the T4 models).
That's 1850. I can drop one T-Fex and give the others regen at 1750 or give them all regen and more templates at 2000. You can probably guess which models I like... I wish walking Tyrants worked, but I just don't feel like you can make them work. I love the Swarmlord, but he's become such a hot mess.
Think Exocrines would be beneficial in that list? 2 T-Fexes and 2 'Crines?
I'm spit balling. I just want something I can make a bunch of custom "big bugs" as a modeling project and still have it playable. I dislike the Crone/Harpy model with no legs (even though it can "walk") and the flying stick up it's butt.
TheKbob wrote: So, this is a dumb list, but I'm only a fan of some of the Nids models. I want to make Nidzilla because GW refuses to make "Midzilla" a viable army list (entirely composed of the T4 models).
That's 1850. I can drop one T-Fex and give the others regen at 1750 or give them all regen and more templates at 2000. You can probably guess which models I like... I wish walking Tyrants worked, but I just don't feel like you can make them work. I love the Swarmlord, but he's become such a hot mess.
Think Exocrines would be beneficial in that list? 2 T-Fexes and 2 'Crines?
I'm spit balling. I just want something I can make a bunch of custom "big bugs" as a modeling project and still have it playable. I dislike the Crone/Harpy model with no legs (even though it can "walk") and the flying stick up it's butt.
Looks awesome cool! But I suggest you find 40 points for Thorax Hives on the Big Bad Tyranos. I live for the day you get "Master of Ambush" (Dakka'rant and three Tyranos outflank from the underworld!!! )
Looks awesome cool! But I suggest you find 40 points for Thorax Hives on the Big Bad Tyranos. I live for the day you get "Master of Ambush" (Dakka'rant and three Tyranos outflank from the underworld!!! )
At 1850, you just don't have the points. I could demote one T-Fex to an Exocrine and give the Fexes all Hives. At 1750 it's possible as I have to drop one anyways and at 2K, too.
Which thorax biomorph is the best? I can see each one having it's uses. Probably Electroshock Grubs because of S5, Ap5, and Haywire? It's the best "all comers" *FWOOSH* they seem to have.
Now this list has more big bad guys. But perhaps each is a little less effective. I am contemplating dropping the second mawloc for carnifex upgrades. For example claws and such. Maybe add a third zoey in, or a venom for a cover save. Or perhaps a lictor for accurate mawloc deep strike. Though I fear he would die. fast. What to do? Perhaps sheer numbers of big beasties will be enough?
Looks awesome cool! But I suggest you find 40 points for Thorax Hives on the Big Bad Tyranos. I live for the day you get "Master of Ambush" (Dakka'rant and three Tyranos outflank from the underworld!!! )
At 1850, you just don't have the points. I could demote one T-Fex to an Exocrine and give the Fexes all Hives. At 1750 it's possible as I have to drop one anyways and at 2K, too.
Which thorax biomorph is the best? I can see each one having it's uses. Probably Electroshock Grubs because of S5, Ap5, and Haywire? It's the best "all comers" *FWOOSH* they seem to have.
I'm a big fan of Electro-Bugs, and with Smash being nerfed, it's even more nessisary...
Just got done recovering from the lack of sleep involved an a weekend-long 40k event (just a small local thing, but a lot of fun nonetheless) where I played a number (3!) apocalypse games, and that was just on the first day! I brought at least 5k in each one and it was incredible. Not much of a bat rep kind of guy but I'll get some stuff going next time - there was so much that was awesome. I bring it up on the topic of a hierophant upgrade. Still wish I could grab more than one, they're so great! But I never for a second went for anything but the venom. With a 4+ cover turning into an effective 2++ (think about it - what can ignore cover AND 2+ armor? Not much!) whenever the hierophant touched ruins, it was not too shabby! Made the thing darn near indestructible. Also ran my harridan. It really is pretty much indestructible. If you get lucky enough to play against people who don't realize that, it makes up even more of it's points back because they will shoot it.
By the way, I came up with a name for the hierophant with a toe in nearby ruins giving 2+ cover to flyrants and such in said ruins - Shroudstar. Pretty sure it's going to be a thing. You have an alpha strike? That's cute. Meet my 2+ saves
The idea of Genestealers in a hierophant is actually pretty awesome, and brings up a number of things I wonder about how that would work:
1) do you "disembark" from a point on the body or from the base? Technically forge world says to imagine a line connecting each leg to the adjacent leg, forming a square. Is that where you measure the 6" from?
2) Does the hierophant have to move less than 6" for them to get out (which I think is how it works for normal vehicles)
3) could they disembark on a turn that the hierophant is locked in combat? Presumably the hierophant wouldn't be surrounded so there would be a place to put the models
4) in that case, are they then locked in that same assault?
luke1705 wrote: Just got done recovering from the lack of sleep involved an a weekend-long 40k event (just a small local thing, but a lot of fun nonetheless) where I played a number (3!) apocalypse games, and that was just on the first day! I brought at least 5k in each one and it was incredible. Not much of a bat rep kind of guy but I'll get some stuff going next time - there was so much that was awesome. I bring it up on the topic of a hierophant upgrade. Still wish I could grab more than one, they're so great! But I never for a second went for anything but the venom. With a 4+ cover turning into an effective 2++ (think about it - what can ignore cover AND 2+ armor? Not much!) whenever the hierophant touched ruins, it was not too shabby! Made the thing darn near indestructible. Also ran my harridan. It really is pretty much indestructible. If you get lucky enough to play against people who don't realize that, it makes up even more of it's points back because they will shoot it.
By the way, I came up with a name for the hierophant with a toe in nearby ruins giving 2+ cover to flyrants and such in said ruins - Shroudstar. Pretty sure it's going to be a thing. You have an alpha strike? That's cute. Meet my 2+ saves
The idea of Genestealers in a hierophant is actually pretty awesome, and brings up a number of things I wonder about how that would work:
1) do you "disembark" from a point on the body or from the base? Technically forge world says to imagine a line connecting each leg to the adjacent leg, forming a square. Is that where you measure the 6" from?
2) Does the hierophant have to move less than 6" for them to get out (which I think is how it works for normal vehicles)
3) could they disembark on a turn that the hierophant is locked in combat? Presumably the hierophant wouldn't be surrounded so there would be a place to put the models
4) in that case, are they then locked in that same assault?
4) GW HOW DO TRANSPORT MONSTROUS CREATURES WORK!
1. If your hierophant isn't based, I would play it as an imaginary base that connects the legs and the head. It then forms somewhat of a pentagram.
2. Yes, cannot disembark if it has moved more than 6".
3. Not only can they disembark, but they can disembark and assault as well!
4. No, they are not locked in combat at all. They can assault an entirely different unit if they wished on the turn they disembarked.
5. You can't transport other MC's. The default is that MC's cannot go in a transport, so for them to be able to ride on the hierophant, it has to have a rule that gives you explicit permission to do so. It doesn't have it.
Thanks for the clarification. I assumed as much, but it would be nice if GW clarified some things. Seems like a T shirt that would sell rather well. It would be sick to transport MCs but that wasn't what I was ranting about for point number 4; just rather that MCs that can transport things (Squiggoth, etc) have extremely little written for them directly, although they really are a classification all to themselves now. Just as much as Jetbikes have a unit type, transport creatures (or whatever you want to call it) should have a rule section rather than having to scour and connect the dots.
TychoTerziev wrote: I really like the idea of the Mawloc, but in the five games I played with it, the worm hit its intended target only once. In those games it killed five necron warriors, one plague marine and 10 of my gaunts ( yes, I keep a tally). Am I missing something? Are Lictors mandatory in that case? I hate Lictors...
I wouldn't measure the mawloc by its killing power. If it kills things, I consider that a bonus.
The true worth of the mawloc is in his almost unlimited mobility and the fact that he forces your opponent to focus on him, thus allowing the rest of your army to survive for at least another turn.
No, lictors are by no means mandatory.
This. Mawlocs are costed amazingly before you even factor in the blast. The blast can be mega powerful, but unreliable. It's a big bonus if it goes off - I like to run three Mawlocs for numerous reasons - but it definitely helps the chances of landing one or two big bonus blasts of death
I definitely think that 1-2 Mawlocs are very cost-efficient and their timing is superb if they come in on turn 2. A devastating beta strike, especially if coordinated with other FMC. The thing that I'm trying to figure out is what they synergize with. Would they work well with Skyblight? If so, what do you take out to field them?
luke1705 wrote: I definitely think that 1-2 Mawlocs are very cost-efficient and their timing is superb if they come in on turn 2. A devastating beta strike, especially if coordinated with other FMC. The thing that I'm trying to figure out is what they synergize with. Would they work well with Skyblight? If so, what do you take out to field them?
I don't know either, but I am sure that they Rawk, with Living Artillery. I have suggested (but not tried, I don't own a bastion) that Veno in a box, would be even better if a Lictor infiltrated in as well...the Lictor bubble is also from the outside of the Bastion. anything that gets close, gets eaten by a Mawloc! That ought to keep those pesky flamers away from your Bastion. then call down deepstriking Sporemines as bubble wrap.
Commander_Farsight wrote: So then what would be considered the "mainstream tyranid competitive build of 7th edition?" if you even have that yet!
IMO it probably still centers around Skyblight, but how to fill out those points are certainly up for debate. The formation is quite costly with 2 Harpies, a Flyrant, a minimum of 30 Gargoyles and a Crone. Without upgrades that's still at least 835 points (the Hive Tyrant's guns are pretty much non-negotiable).
So for, say, a 1750, how do you fill out the remaining 915 points? My opinion is that a second Hive Tyrant is also non-negotiable, but I think that a third might not be necessary. I mean, it's hard to turn it down for sure, but 230 points gives a lot of other options.
The star of the elites slot is definitely the venomthrope. An auto-include if you ask me. I think that solo Zoanthrope broods will also be great, being ML2 with a decent amount of firepower if left unattended plus Synapse. Really want to include 2 single broods and see what happens, but Warp Lance is so unreliable that it kills me.
Rippers are, to me, great. Check a few pages back for all the reasons, but effectively you can just keep them hidden very well and they do better than most other units out of synapse (and are naturally fearless) plus have Objective: secured now in a battle-forged army. I do desperately want to try the Genestealer in a bastion strategy to see how it fares. I believe that Warriors are underrated (stick a group with a venomthrope and see how fast people want to waste str 8+ on them). Tervigons simply cost so much to have in the troops slot considering the Gaunt tax, but I believe that people are having good success with them.
The harpy and the hive crone are the second and third pillars of the Tyranid Airforce, and not without good reason. The Hive Crone is worse than it used to be against ground troops, but the flamer is still good and the enhanced strength on the vector strike plus getting d3 hits on flyers means that it's still pretty nasty. Gargoyles of course are the staple of Skyblight and why it is fielded, and might be better with some upgrades, but with the nerfs to poison I don't think they need any.
Out of HS, I think the only unit that you can't work with is the Trygon and it's Prime variant. I know some people love them, but I'd rather get a Mawloc that has similar effects for far fewer points. Biovores and Mawlocs fight for my love currently, although if anyone ever tells me that Fexstar is back I will go get 9 so fast it'll make you spin. The exocrine I've also heard good things about but I do wonder how consistently it makes its points back.
I think that a power build revolves around taking the good and leaving out the bad (most of what was not mentioned) and finding exceptional synergy, as well as force multipliers. We don't have much in the way of those except for the Venomthrope and some Psychic powers (which are now much less reliable), but I'm excited to see where things go. Do I expect to see Nids winning a GT? I don't (although I am rooting for Skyblight in an unashamedly biased way). What I do think that people will see is a large number of permutations of the units that I've listed above to similar levels of power.
luke1705 wrote: I definitely think that 1-2 Mawlocs are very cost-efficient and their timing is superb if they come in on turn 2. A devastating beta strike, especially if coordinated with other FMC. The thing that I'm trying to figure out is what they synergize with. Would they work well with Skyblight? If so, what do you take out to field them?
I don't know either, but I am sure that they Rawk, with Living Artillery. I have suggested (but not tried, I don't own a bastion) that Veno in a box, would be even better if a Lictor infiltrated in as well...the Lictor bubble is also from the outside of the Bastion. anything that gets close, gets eaten by a Mawloc! That ought to keep those pesky flamers away from your Bastion. then call down deepstriking Sporemines as bubble wrap.
The venom in a box is great, especially because he tends to stay safe (apparently other things are scarier and have bigger claws). I don't even worry about keeping him safe. The issue I find with the Lictor is that he can't infiltrate more than 12" away from an enemy, so using him to call down Mawlocs rarely results in him hitting any enemy targets. That being said, having stealth does allow him to benefit from a 2+ cover in any terrain in combination with the venomthrope. I mean seriously, can we have enough of them? Maybe I should just take 3. Heck, maybe having FMC stop flying up the board and just letting them junk while shrouded is the new way to go. Give that flyrant some nasty CC stuff and laugh as they can't wound him on his way in.
luke1705 wrote: I definitely think that 1-2 Mawlocs are very cost-efficient and their timing is superb if they come in on turn 2. A devastating beta strike, especially if coordinated with other FMC. The thing that I'm trying to figure out is what they synergize with. Would they work well with Skyblight? If so, what do you take out to field them?
They will always come in turn 2 if you burrow them turn one. They are also the cheapest T6 wounds in the army and have plenty of them to throw around, and they are big as feth so can be a good way to turn a FMCs 5+ cover into a 3+ turn one.
So as for units that work well with Mawloc - something that can open transports turn 1 is good in case you want to aim those entry blasts at something important inside, Harpys and Crones are good for this, electroshock grubs on the Flyrants as well as a back up is worth taking. Deathleaper and assassins brood were better when it was relevant to casting but is still decent for Nova Screams that No longer count as a gun for Flyrants. They also compliment Mawloc very well in combat, and that's all not mentioning that you will have 6 no-scatter bubbles on the field (which will probably only be relevant if you reburrow or wait till turn 2 to burrow for turn 3 blasts - prolly only for wrecking something important like a Deathstar in a Land Raider or something, but you WILL land like 6 blasts on them wrecking their face).
luke1705 wrote: I definitely think that 1-2 Mawlocs are very cost-efficient and their timing is superb if they come in on turn 2. A devastating beta strike, especially if coordinated with other FMC. The thing that I'm trying to figure out is what they synergize with. Would they work well with Skyblight? If so, what do you take out to field them?
They will always come in turn 2 if you burrow them turn one. They are also the cheapest T6 wounds in the army and have plenty of them to throw around, and they are big as feth so can be a good way to turn a FMCs 5+ cover into a 3+ turn one.
So as for units that work well with Mawloc - something that can open transports turn 1 is good in case you want to aim those entry blasts at something important inside, Harpys and Crones are good for this, electroshock grubs on the Flyrants as well as a back up is worth taking. Deathleaper and assassins brood were better when it was relevant to casting but is still decent for Nova Screams that No longer count as a gun for Flyrants. They also compliment Mawloc very well in combat, and that's all not mentioning that you will have 6 no-scatter bubbles on the field (which will probably only be relevant if you reburrow or wait till turn 2 to burrow for turn 3 blasts - prolly only for wrecking something important like a Deathstar in a Land Raider or something, but you WILL land like 6 blasts on them wrecking their face).
........apart from you can't burrow on turn one........
So even though I'm not quite done with 6th yet (got the Burmingham Expo this weekend) I'm going to get my hands dirty with 7th today running the following...
Dakka Flyrant
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
2 x 10 Termagants Spinefists
2 x Biovores
Mawloc
Second detachment
Tervigon
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
2 x 10 Termagants Fleshbourers
Sky blight formation
Dakka Flyrant
3 x 10 Gargoyles
Harpy
Harpy
Crone
You are right Kain I never even noticed that change in the new dex. In fact none of my group have. Thanks for the heads up, I guess it's Gargoyle Screens or 3rd turn Terrors from now on
SHUPPET wrote: You are right Kain I never even noticed that change in the new dex. In fact none of my group have. Thanks for the heads up, I guess it's Gargoyle Screens or 3rd turn Terrors from now on
Yeah, start him in reserves, you still have a 2/3 chance of a turn 2 terrors. Its not terrible. I'm going to run 2 and see what happens. I am thinking some sort of reserves modifier is going to benefit me. But I refuse to take less bugs....
PrinceRaven wrote: Or you could put it in Reserves instead of starting on the board...
That's what I was referring to with Gargoyle screens. Original context was deploying him for cover save and then burrowing turn 1, like you could do last dex.
With the new vehicle damage table, and the nerf to smash, I did some math to determine the best way to deal with certain AV values. I thought I would share my work.
AV 10 HP Source
5.33 Dakka flyrant
5.00 Dakka Fex
4.67 CC Fex (Assault)
4.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
3.50 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
3.00 Trygon Prime
2.66 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.66 Trygon Prime (Assault)
2.66 Trygon (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Venom
2.50 3 Hive Guard
AV 11 HP Source
3.89 CC Fex (Assault)
3.56 Dakka flyrant
3.33 Dakka Fex
3.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
2.61 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer) <- This level and above to kill a Rhino (front armor)
2.00 Trygon Prime
2.00 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.00 3 Hive Guard
AV 12 HP Source
3.11 CC Fex (Assault)
2.67 Dakka Fex (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Wave Serpent
1.78 Dakka Flyrant
1.72 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
1.67 Dakka Fex
1.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs) <- This level and above to kill a drop pod
1.50 3 Hive Guard
1.33 Exocrine (Didn't Move)
1.00 Trygon Prime
1.00 Exocrine (Moved)
AV 13 HP Source <- This level and above to kill an Iron Clad Dred (there is nothing)
2.33 CC Fex (Assault)
2.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
1.00 3 Hive Guard
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.67 Exocrine (didn't Move)
0.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
AV 14 HP Source <- This level and above to kill a Land Raider (there is nothing)
1.56 CC Fex (Assault)
1.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.33 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.50 3 Hive Guard
0.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
Yeah, I just played a fun team-game with my side being 1K of 'Nids and my partner having Dark Angels and the other side being IG and Iron Hands.
Heavier vehicles are a PROBLEM, folks.
With nerfs Smash, VS, and no landing-then-assaulting flyers, we are gonna have some transitory issues. Add in Zoanthrope powers now being quite unreliable (I predict people running cheap Psykers for defense a LOT) and we have some real issues. I ain't sweating AR 10-11 too much, because we can pump out a LOT of Str. 6 with Flyrants and DakaFexes. But AR 13-14 is REALLY tough on us right now. Plan accordingly! Skyblight helps with Harpies with Hvy VCs, BTW (duh, right?).
Hive Crones have become a mystery to me. With the VS changes, they went from being an auto-include to having an issue picking up their points. 165 pts. for a super-flamer and a few one shot 50% hit Haywire shots? It isn't as simple as it was before. Heck, their Instinctive Behavior is even weirder; you HAVE to assault, but, since you can't land and assault, you CAN'T assault. Does this mean that you can stay flying, or do you land, stick your thumb up your... nose... and just get shot to death?
My TFex with Acid Spray and Electroshock Grubs is still working well for mass-troop lists. Soaks up a few hits as well. I am thinking about Regen on a MC or two... I know, I know, it usually ain't worth it. But having it on flyers that are now no where NEAR as easy to ground-'n-pound can be a benefit. Gonna play around with it.
Troops are my weak point. For the life of me, I can't get ANY of them to work for me! They are all just so SQUISHY! I think a Tervigon might help some; more pressure, more synapse, and more Psychic charges. Maybe throw some claws on it for fun.
tag8833 wrote: With the new vehicle damage table, and the nerf to smash, I did some math to determine the best way to deal with certain AV values. I thought I would share my work.
Spoiler:
AV 10 HP Source
5.33 Dakka flyrant
5.00 Dakka Fex
4.67 CC Fex (Assault)
4.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
3.50 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
3.00 Trygon Prime
2.66 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.66 Trygon Prime (Assault)
2.66 Trygon (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Venom
2.50 3 Hive Guard
AV 11 HP Source
3.89 CC Fex (Assault)
3.56 Dakka flyrant
3.33 Dakka Fex
3.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
2.61 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer) <- This level and above to kill a Rhino (front armor)
2.00 Trygon Prime
2.00 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.00 3 Hive Guard
AV 12 HP Source
3.11 CC Fex (Assault)
2.67 Dakka Fex (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Wave Serpent
1.78 Dakka Flyrant
1.72 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
1.67 Dakka Fex
1.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs) <- This level and above to kill a drop pod
1.50 3 Hive Guard
1.33 Exocrine (Didn't Move)
1.00 Trygon Prime
1.00 Exocrine (Moved)
AV 13 HP Source <- This level and above to kill an Iron Clad Dred (there is nothing)
2.33 CC Fex (Assault)
2.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
1.00 3 Hive Guard
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.67 Exocrine (didn't Move)
0.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
AV 14 HP Source <- This level and above to kill a Land Raider (there is nothing)
1.56 CC Fex (Assault)
1.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.33 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.50 3 Hive Guard
0.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
Hey Tag...can you include stealers...I just came out of a game where my stealers totaled a LR in one go.
tag8833 wrote: With the new vehicle damage table, and the nerf to smash, I did some math to determine the best way to deal with certain AV values. I thought I would share my work.
Spoiler:
AV 10 HP Source
5.33 Dakka flyrant
5.00 Dakka Fex
4.67 CC Fex (Assault)
4.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
3.50 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
3.00 Trygon Prime
2.66 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.66 Trygon Prime (Assault)
2.66 Trygon (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Venom
2.50 3 Hive Guard
AV 11 HP Source
3.89 CC Fex (Assault)
3.56 Dakka flyrant
3.33 Dakka Fex
3.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
2.61 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer) <- This level and above to kill a Rhino (front armor)
2.00 Trygon Prime
2.00 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.00 3 Hive Guard
AV 12 HP Source
3.11 CC Fex (Assault)
2.67 Dakka Fex (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Wave Serpent
1.78 Dakka Flyrant
1.72 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
1.67 Dakka Fex
1.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs) <- This level and above to kill a drop pod
1.50 3 Hive Guard
1.33 Exocrine (Didn't Move)
1.00 Trygon Prime
1.00 Exocrine (Moved)
AV 13 HP Source <- This level and above to kill an Iron Clad Dred (there is nothing)
2.33 CC Fex (Assault)
2.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
1.00 3 Hive Guard
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.67 Exocrine (didn't Move)
0.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
AV 14 HP Source <- This level and above to kill a Land Raider (there is nothing)
1.56 CC Fex (Assault)
1.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.33 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.50 3 Hive Guard
0.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
Hey Tag...can you include stealers...I just came out of a game where my stealers totaled a LR in one go.
How? 4 STR + 6 on the die + 3 on the d3 is 13, not 14.
tag8833 wrote: With the new vehicle damage table, and the nerf to smash, I did some math to determine the best way to deal with certain AV values. I thought I would share my work.
Spoiler:
AV 10 HP Source
5.33 Dakka flyrant
5.00 Dakka Fex
4.67 CC Fex (Assault)
4.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
3.50 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
3.00 Trygon Prime
2.66 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.66 Trygon Prime (Assault)
2.66 Trygon (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Venom
2.50 3 Hive Guard
AV 11 HP Source
3.89 CC Fex (Assault)
3.56 Dakka flyrant
3.33 Dakka Fex
3.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
2.61 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer) <- This level and above to kill a Rhino (front armor)
2.00 Trygon Prime
2.00 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.00 3 Hive Guard
AV 12 HP Source
3.11 CC Fex (Assault)
2.67 Dakka Fex (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Wave Serpent
1.78 Dakka Flyrant
1.72 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
1.67 Dakka Fex
1.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs) <- This level and above to kill a drop pod
1.50 3 Hive Guard
1.33 Exocrine (Didn't Move)
1.00 Trygon Prime
1.00 Exocrine (Moved)
AV 13 HP Source <- This level and above to kill an Iron Clad Dred (there is nothing)
2.33 CC Fex (Assault)
2.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
1.00 3 Hive Guard
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.67 Exocrine (didn't Move)
0.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
AV 14 HP Source <- This level and above to kill a Land Raider (there is nothing)
1.56 CC Fex (Assault)
1.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.33 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.50 3 Hive Guard
0.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
Hey Tag...can you include stealers...I just came out of a game where my stealers totaled a LR in one go.
How? 4 STR + 6 on the die + 3 on the d3 is 13, not 14.
This means that you can take a Broodlord Hunting Pack, set it up in some Ruins, take a turn of fire and GTG for (at least) 3+ Cover, then wake up the next turn and a) cast Dominion to come out of GTG, then cast The Horror to pin a target, charge in and take no Overwatch fire. Admittedly you're relying on 2 psychic powers here, but hey both are WC1 and you always have them so it's not that much to ask. Quite powerful, but not without a few issues*,**.
*Worth noting that they "cannot charge on their first turn", so if you go second you are going to take two turns of incoming firepower. Much more reliable if you go first. although GTG/Ruins is 3+, and with Stealth (Night Fighting?) you can get 2+ so they are actually going to be quite hard to dig out. Plus, if you can convince your opponent to spend two turns of firepower on Genestealers then I think that's something to be happy about really.
**Really worth noting that ignores cover bones this idea, sadly.
tag8833 wrote: With the new vehicle damage table, and the nerf to smash, I did some math to determine the best way to deal with certain AV values. I thought I would share my work.
Spoiler:
AV 10 HP Source
5.33 Dakka flyrant
5.00 Dakka Fex
4.67 CC Fex (Assault)
4.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
3.50 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
3.00 Trygon Prime
2.66 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.66 Trygon Prime (Assault)
2.66 Trygon (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Venom
2.50 3 Hive Guard
AV 11 HP Source
3.89 CC Fex (Assault)
3.56 Dakka flyrant
3.33 Dakka Fex
3.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
2.61 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer) <- This level and above to kill a Rhino (front armor)
2.00 Trygon Prime
2.00 Exocrine (didn't move)
2.00 3 Hive Guard
AV 12 HP Source
3.11 CC Fex (Assault)
2.67 Dakka Fex (Assault) <- This level and above to kill a Wave Serpent
1.78 Dakka Flyrant
1.72 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
1.67 Dakka Fex
1.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs) <- This level and above to kill a drop pod
1.50 3 Hive Guard
1.33 Exocrine (Didn't Move)
1.00 Trygon Prime
1.00 Exocrine (Moved)
AV 13 HP Source <- This level and above to kill an Iron Clad Dred (there is nothing)
2.33 CC Fex (Assault)
2.00 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
1.00 3 Hive Guard
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.67 Exocrine (didn't Move)
0.67 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
AV 14 HP Source <- This level and above to kill a Land Raider (there is nothing)
1.56 CC Fex (Assault)
1.33 Dakka Fex (Assault)
1.33 TFex (Rupture Cannon, E. Grubs)
0.83 Flyrant (E.Grubs + TL Devourer)
0.83 Tervigon (E. Grubs)
0.83 TFex (Acid Spray, E. Grubs)
0.50 3 Hive Guard
0.50 TFex (Rupture Cannon)
Hey Tag...can you include stealers...I just came out of a game where my stealers totaled a LR in one go.
How? 4 STR + 6 on the die + 3 on the d3 is 13, not 14.
Maybe he had Adrenals.
And the Broodlord...which I guess isn't all too common, nevermind me. I was play with the Hunting pack.
I'm trying to figure out a new TAC list because the old one with three Crones simply cant handle vehicles now. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Since most tournaments I'm assuming wont allow a Hierophant, I'm looking at:
1850 Battleforged
Flyrant w/Devourers Electro, HC Flyrant w/Devourers Electro
Flyrant w/Reaper, Electro, AG (Most likely a grounded tank hunter. S8 on the charge with 6 attacks plus the haywire)
ductvader wrote: And the Broodlord...which I guess isn't all too common, nevermind me. I was play with the Hunting pack.
So ignoring the Broodlord (because I don't feel like messing with it) it's STR5+6+3 for a 14.
3 attacks * 2/3 to hit * 1/6 to Rend * 1/3 to get a 3 = .1111 (repeating) HP per stealer. On average 36 stealers to kill a Raider without a Broodlord.
Adding ScyTals brings it to .148/stealer so 27 stealers per Land Raider.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: The Last two are changed significantly if you put crushing claws on your CC fex....
You are correct. Adrenal glands would also make an impact. I didn't run the math for either of those. The CCFexes that I used were base with no upgrades.
Honestly, I'm... unsure that Crushing Claws are worth it on Carnifexes. They just aren't fast enough to be a really viable close combat unit. So if you want to run them assault only, I would keep them cheap. I think Crushing claws are a more worthwhile upgrade on a Tervigon, especially if it is running your backfield, that gives it the ability to deal with drop pods and Rhinos a bit. Now that Drop Pods are super scoring, you've got to clear them out somehow, and a Tervigon's firepower isn't needed elsewhere. Tervigons despite being over-costed to begin with, have transformed a bit to me, and I plan to run a Troop Tervigon in most of my armies that is outfitted with Electroshock Grubs and Crushing Claws.
I also plan to make Dakka-fexes a staple again. I had mostly switched my Heavy support away from them, but with the 7th edition changes, I need the high strength so very, very badly.
I think the bones of my (non-skyblight) TAC list are going to be:
Dakka Flyrant with E.Grubs
Dakka Flyrant with E.Grubs
I haven't decided what to add to it yet to fill it out. Probably Crones and Mawlocs. It is definitely substantially weaker than my 6th edition list, but GW swung the nerf bat pretty hard.
On the other hand, I do have a 30.56% chance of getting Master of Ambush, and taking my warlord flyrant, Venom, Dakkafexes, and (Tervigon or TGaunts) to midfield.
This has been discussed a bit in a few threads. It looks like since Broodlords don't actually roll their powers, they don't get Psychic Focus. So Broodlords are stuck with just The Horror. (Which is not exactly a bad power with the buff to pinning attacks!)
Honestly the FAQ doesn't seem to have changed much of anything, so to me Tyranids are wherever they were before the FAQ came out.
SitW not getting an updated entry is a bit strange, I think, but it's not like it doesn't function at all. Enemy psykers are still -3Ld in all instances, including the Ld checks to resist Perils. Sure it doesn't do much to block enemy psyhic abilities anymore, but we do have quite a few psyker options in the codex to generate dispel dice. I would have liked to see "a unit with this rule that is not a psyker counts as a ML1 psyker when generating dispel dice" or something like that (which would really only matter for Warriors I think).
Either way, I'm not sure even I would put Tyranids at "solidly bottom tier".
Wow. Why did they even bother doing an "official" FAQ for Nids then? Literally, everything they changed doesn't make any difference.
One question, however: I've seen people referring to "Master of Ambush" strategic trait and being able to "reroll" when they don't get the one they want. Why the reroll?
streamdragon wrote: Honestly the FAQ doesn't seem to have changed much of anything, so to me Tyranids are wherever they were before the FAQ came out.
SitW not getting an updated entry is a bit strange, I think, but it's not like it doesn't function at all. Enemy psykers are still -3Ld in all instances, including the Ld checks to resist Perils. Sure it doesn't do much to block enemy psyhic abilities anymore, but we do have quite a few psyker options in the codex to generate dispel dice. I would have liked to see "a unit with this rule that is not a psyker counts as a ML1 psyker when generating dispel dice" or something like that (which would really only matter for Warriors I think).
Either way, I'm not sure even I would put Tyranids at "solidly bottom tier".
It's almost like they wrote SiTW in such a way that it would continue to function with the edition changes...
Trying to catch up on this thread a little bit. Why is it that the majority feels that skyblight is still the way to go? It seems like the crone got a bit worse with the vector strike nerf and did the harpy really get that much better by not being grounded as easy?
Trying to catch up on this thread a little bit. Why is it that the majority feels that skyblight is still the way to go? It seems like the crone got a bit worse with the vector strike nerf and did the harpy really get that much better by not being grounded as easy?
Flyrants are much better. Gargoyles with Objective secured are still really good. Crones and Harpies are worse assaulters/Vector Strikers but better gun platforms. We are highly mobile and can reach objectives easily. Crones are needed for Haywire. Plus, ground Monstrous creatures that rely on assault got horribly nerfed.
streamdragon wrote: Honestly the FAQ doesn't seem to have changed much of anything, so to me Tyranids are wherever they were before the FAQ came out.
SitW not getting an updated entry is a bit strange, I think, but it's not like it doesn't function at all. Enemy psykers are still -3Ld in all instances, including the Ld checks to resist Perils. Sure it doesn't do much to block enemy psyhic abilities anymore, but we do have quite a few psyker options in the codex to generate dispel dice. I would have liked to see "a unit with this rule that is not a psyker counts as a ML1 psyker when generating dispel dice" or something like that (which would really only matter for Warriors I think).
Either way, I'm not sure even I would put Tyranids at "solidly bottom tier".
It's almost like they wrote SiTW in such a way that it would continue to function with the edition changes...
The rule itself still functions, but its original purpose of making powers harder to cast is no longer functional. I mean, there are lots of books whose rules still function, but I doubt the 4e Ork Codex was designed with 7e (or even 6e or 5e!) in mind.
This has been discussed a bit in a few threads. It looks like since Broodlords don't actually roll their powers, they don't get Psychic Focus. So Broodlords are stuck with just The Horror. (Which is not exactly a bad power with the buff to pinning attacks!)
This doesn't make any sense.....
Since the Broodlord is the only psykers who isn't also a synapse creature, then that rule MUST be aimed at him...
Although being ML 1 means he can only cast 1 power a turn anyway. As it states, in bold, in the rule book.
Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.
This exactly! Finally someone who thinks the way I do! It does affect people casting! It affects the amount of dice they'll be willing to throw at it, therefore decreasing the chance of it being successful. Because if they throw more dice, there's more chance of perils, which is a lot nastier now!
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.
This exactly! Finally someone who thinks the way I do! It does affect people casting! It affects the amount of dice they'll be willing to throw at it, therefore decreasing the chance of it being successful. Because if they throw more dice, there's more chance of perils, which is a lot nastier now!
For the slower of us (Me ) can you give a brief rundown of how SiTW makes perils more likely? I have been looking at both ebooks side by side and can't figure it out to save my life.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.
Assuming that your opponent cares about Perils in the first place. AM can field cheap, throw away psykers who are perfectly expendable if it nets you a bloodthirster or something.
@foto69man - When you Perils you roll on a d6 table. Most entries (all?) have a Ld test involved. If you succeed, you get the 'least-bad' of 2 outcomes. If you fail, you get the worst of the 2. The -3Ld from SitW would apply to this test, making it more likely you'll get the "bad" result.
Every time you roll 2 or more 6s, you Perils. Every time you Perils, you make a Leadership test to avoid the bad part of the Perils.
A giant penalty to your Leadership means that each Perils is more likely to cause "the bad thing" to happen. That means chucking more dice at a power is drastically increasing your odds of "the bad thing" happening. Cutting back on the dice thrown to reduce the risk of a Perils also reduces the chances of a successful cast.
Shadow also allows you to corral opposing psykers since they can move before the psychic phase. Given the opportunity, a lot of players will put their psyker in a suboptimal position to get out of Shadows.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.
Assuming that your opponent cares about Perils in the first place. AM can field cheap, throw away psykers who are perfectly expendable if it nets you a bloodthirster or something.
@foto69man - When you Perils you roll on a d6 table. Most entries (all?) have a Ld test involved. If you succeed, you get the 'least-bad' of 2 outcomes. If you fail, you get the worst of the 2. The -3Ld from SitW would apply to this test, making it more likely you'll get the "bad" result.
Ok I was way over thinking things then...my apologies...was looking for something more hidden lol
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.
This exactly! Finally someone who thinks the way I do! It does affect people casting! It affects the amount of dice they'll be willing to throw at it, therefore decreasing the chance of it being successful. Because if they throw more dice, there's more chance of perils, which is a lot nastier now!
For the slower of us (Me ) can you give a brief rundown of how SiTW makes perils more likely? I have been looking at both ebooks side by side and can't figure it out to save my life.
Ok. Perils is now a lot more nasty. A lot of the very nasty results rely on you failing a leadership test after suffering perils.
Now the way you suffer perils is to roll a double 6. With the new ways you manifest psychic powers you can throw as many warp charge dice at the power as you want. But this comes with a consequence. The more dice you throw, the more likely your power will manifest. BUT the more likely you have of suffering perils. To leadership 10 psykers it's a lot less frightening than to leadership 7 psykers for instance. As they are much more likely to fail their leadership test and suffer the very nasty result.
So with shadows near by, that psyker may think twice before throwing more dice at the power, and instead throw less in the hope that the power will manifest and he won't suffer perils. But in throwing less dice he is also reducing his likelihood of manifesting a power. Therefore shadows still has an impact on the ability to manifest powers....
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.
Assuming that your opponent cares about Perils in the first place. AM can field cheap, throw away psykers who are perfectly expendable if it nets you a bloodthirster or something.
@foto69man - When you Perils you roll on a d6 table. Most entries (all?) have a Ld test involved. If you succeed, you get the 'least-bad' of 2 outcomes. If you fail, you get the worst of the 2. The -3Ld from SitW would apply to this test, making it more likely you'll get the "bad" result.
Ok I was way over thinking things then...my apologies...was looking for something more hidden lol
No apologies needed! SitW's focus has, to me, suffered a dramatic shift in this edition. Whether this remains a net buff or net nerf to Nids is up for debate, but with specific regards to the Psychic Phase, I think it's an overall nerf. It no longer makes powers any more difficult to cast, it just increases the chance of a punishing Perils (assuming the enemy psyker suffers Perils in the first place). Even then, the "bad" options only REALLY matters for '1's:
1: Take the Ld check, fail? Remove the model from play and blow up things around you.
2/3/4: No ld check on these
5: Take the Ld check, fail? Take a wound
6: Take the Ld check, fail? Take a wound; Pass, get bonuses!
So for half the Perils table, SitW does zilch. Nada, nil, nothin'.
For 2/3 options, passing the ld test means not taking a single wound. Only on a '1' does it make a big difference, imo.
SitW isn't all that great when it comes to Psychic anything. I guess the big deal is that it's still -3Ld for all other Ld tests (although psykers in a non-psyker unit can still use the unit's Ld for most things, so... big whoop).
This has been discussed a bit in a few threads. It looks like since Broodlords don't actually roll their powers, they don't get Psychic Focus. So Broodlords are stuck with just The Horror. (Which is not exactly a bad power with the buff to pinning attacks!)
This doesn't make any sense.....
Since the Broodlord is the only psykers who isn't also a synapse creature, then that rule MUST be aimed at him...
Although being ML 1 means he can only cast 1 power a turn anyway. As it states, in bold, in the rule book.
he can cast only one power but he has two to choose from now. Pretty cool actually.
This has been discussed a bit in a few threads. It looks like since Broodlords don't actually roll their powers, they don't get Psychic Focus. So Broodlords are stuck with just The Horror. (Which is not exactly a bad power with the buff to pinning attacks!)
This doesn't make any sense.....
Since the Broodlord is the only psykers who isn't also a synapse creature, then that rule MUST be aimed at him...
Although being ML 1 means he can only cast 1 power a turn anyway. As it states, in bold, in the rule book.
he can cast only one power but he has two to choose from now. Pretty cool actually.
7th nerfed all walking MCs by nerfing Smash, taking away area terrain, bumping the vehicle damage table.
It nerfed Crones and Harpies by reducing vector strike, and bumping the vehicle damage table, and taking away assault, and of course smash.
It nerfed Flyrants by allowing opponents to deny catalyst, and taking away assault, the buff to the vehicle damage table, and of course smash. It did buff flyrants with unlimited witchfires, and only 1 grounding test. I would say that flyrants are a wash or maybe a minor buff overall.
It nerfed Zoeys by keeping Warp Lance Warp charge 2, meaning that we have to steal power dice from other psychers to use it. Also, it will explode 50% fewer vehicles than before. Minor buff by allowing them to cast 2 powers. Also they are a good warp charge battery. We will see more Zoeys, but they will be less effective. On the other hand, my zoey did peril in my last game. Rolled a 6 and gained a 3+ invl.
It nerfed Warriors / shrikes / raveners by upping the vehicle damage table, which is a double nerf because now there will be more S8 weapons out there, and also, it will be harder for them to pop vehicles.
It nerfed our troops with the new missions. We've got to move from objective to objective throughout the game, and are encourage to spread our troops out. Our troops are known to eat themselves or run away if they spread out.
It nerfed Venoms. Bastion has to be inside deployment zone. Venom in a box just got its range reduced a lot. No more area terrain.
It nerfed Gargoyles with the new blind rule.
The unit who got most buffed is the Broodlord. Pinned units no longer overwatch. Even if he doesn't get Dominion because he can't roll, and thus can't get the bonus for rolling from a single table, he is still a bit better, but still ridiculously overcosted.
Lets take a look at our MC wargear.
TLDevs - Nerfed against vehicles
STC - Nerfed against vehicles
HVC - Nerfed so bad it might have become useless.
Rupture Cannon - Nerfed again as if it was useful before. Now it is the most overcosted item in the entire codex.
Crushing Claws - Nerfed. Still a good chance to pen, but only wreck 1/2 as often.
Rending Claws - Lost AP:2 against vehicles. MC's still have AP:2, but Shrikes, Raveners, Genesteelers, and Warriors suffer.
Our only anti-heavy armor weapon that might still be useful is warp lance, and it is only 1/2 as good as it was.
Meanwhile, psychic powers got universally better. Except for ours which got worse by comparison, and because we only have 1 that really matters most of the time (catalyst), it means our opponents are going to throw all of their deny dice at it. SitW got worse.
The new missions are so much more fun, they are going to encourage gunlines to move a bit, but they absolutely eviscerate us. They rely on speed. We are an army seriously lacking in speed. If they hadn't taken assault away from FMCs, we might still do ok in the new missions, but as is, we are screwed.
The new vehicle pen table is such a pain for us. I was already seeing vehicle spam everywhere I looked in my local meta, and already I was struggling to pop vehicles. Now it is 2-3 times as hard to pop vehicles.
Also, it is worth noting that other MC's didn't get nerfed like ours did. How am I going to deal with 2-3 wraith knights now that I lost vector strikes, and I can't smash them to death in assault? I've got to spend points on poison for my HGaunts or something.
How about Riptides? Before I could assault with a Harpy, a Crone, and a flyrant, and smash it to death. No longer. It can't smash my crones to death as reliably, but is mainly left intact.
How about Walkers? Huge buff. How do we deal with those now? If they assault us, we are probably dead.
In every way we got worse, and other armies got better. We were mid-teir before. Why do I think we are solidly bottom tier now?
Trying to catch up on this thread a little bit. Why is it that the majority feels that skyblight is still the way to go? It seems like the crone got a bit worse with the vector strike nerf and did the harpy really get that much better by not being grounded as easy?
Flyrants are much better and seem to form the backbone of the tyranid offense. Crones and Harpies are worse assaulters/Vector Strikers but better gun platforms. We are highly mobile and can reach objectives easily. Crones are needed for Haywire. Plus, ground Monstrous creatures that rely on assault got horribly nerfed.
It seems like the crone took a bit of a nerf to me, i shudder at counting on BS 3 missiles vs ground targets. I definitely see the value of the flyrants, especially with thorax haywire. Sure the crone and the harpy are more sturdy but i'm ultimately not sold on the return on investment for the points and shooting a stranglethorn cannon and spore mines (but admittedly, i don't have much experience with them).
With the smash nerf i can definitely see how our other MCs took a nerf but who really really using trygons much? Mawlocs still have value for hit and run and the terror from the deep. If anything the carnifex got more valuable with a base str of 9, d3 hammer of wrath hits, etc... If anything with objective placement before choosing deployment type/choosing sides and no penalties for charging through cover didn't our foot MCs at least get a buff when it comes to actually getting in to CC?
I am challenging you for understanding here, not to be combatative. Even with the nerfs, to me it doesn't feel like a terrible time to be a bug player. I mean honestly, it's not like i am going to do worse.
This is more a general YMDC question but is important to our ?Mawlocs and Gargoyles, can we still deep strike from ?Ongoing Reserves, if yes why, if no why?
7th nerfed all walking MCs by nerfing Smash, taking away area terrain, bumping the vehicle damage table.
It nerfed Crones and Harpies by reducing vector strike, and bumping the vehicle damage table, and taking away assault, and of course smash.
It nerfed Flyrants by allowing opponents to deny catalyst, and taking away assault, the buff to the vehicle damage table, and of course smash. It did buff flyrants with unlimited witchfires, and only 1 grounding test. I would say that flyrants are a wash or maybe a minor buff overall.
It nerfed Zoeys by keeping Warp Lance Warp charge 2, meaning that we have to steal power dice from other psychers to use it. Also, it will explode 50% fewer vehicles than before. Minor buff by allowing them to cast 2 powers. Also they are a good warp charge battery. We will see more Zoeys, but they will be less effective. On the other hand, my zoey did peril in my last game. Rolled a 6 and gained a 3+ invl.
It nerfed Warriors / shrikes / raveners by upping the vehicle damage table, which is a double nerf because now there will be more S8 weapons out there, and also, it will be harder for them to pop vehicles.
It nerfed our troops with the new missions. We've got to move from objective to objective throughout the game, and are encourage to spread our troops out. Our troops are known to eat themselves or run away if they spread out.
It nerfed Venoms. Bastion has to be inside deployment zone. Venom in a box just got its range reduced a lot. No more area terrain.
It nerfed Gargoyles with the new blind rule.
The unit who got most buffed is the Broodlord. Pinned units no longer overwatch. Even if he doesn't get Dominion because he can't roll, and thus can't get the bonus for rolling from a single table, he is still a bit better, but still ridiculously overcosted.
Lets take a look at our MC wargear.
TLDevs - Nerfed against vehicles
STC - Nerfed against vehicles
HVC - Nerfed so bad it might have become useless.
Rupture Cannon - Nerfed again as if it was useful before. Now it is the most overcosted item in the entire codex.
Crushing Claws - Nerfed. Still a good chance to pen, but only wreck 1/2 as often.
Rending Claws - Lost AP:2 against vehicles. MC's still have AP:2, but Shrikes, Raveners, Genesteelers, and Warriors suffer.
Our only anti-heavy armor weapon that might still be useful is warp lance, and it is only 1/2 as good as it was.
Meanwhile, psychic powers got universally better. Except for ours which got worse by comparison, and because we only have 1 that really matters most of the time (catalyst), it means our opponents are going to throw all of their deny dice at it. SitW got worse.
The new missions are so much more fun, they are going to encourage gunlines to move a bit, but they absolutely eviscerate us. They rely on speed. We are an army seriously lacking in speed. If they hadn't taken assault away from FMCs, we might still do ok in the new missions, but as is, we are screwed.
The new vehicle pen table is such a pain for us. I was already seeing vehicle spam everywhere I looked in my local meta, and already I was struggling to pop vehicles. Now it is 2-3 times as hard to pop vehicles.
Also, it is worth noting that other MC's didn't get nerfed like ours did. How am I going to deal with 2-3 wraith knights now that I lost vector strikes, and I can't smash them to death in assault? I've got to spend points on poison for my HGaunts or something.
How about Riptides? Before I could assault with a Harpy, a Crone, and a flyrant, and smash it to death. No longer. It can't smash my crones to death as reliably, but is mainly left intact.
How about Walkers? Huge buff. How do we deal with those now? If they assault us, we are probably dead.
In every way we got worse, and other armies got better. We were mid-teir before. Why do I think we are solidly bottom tier now?
I have to say I agree with pretty much all of this. I am determined to start a nid army, because I love the fluff. And perhaps the challenge appeals to me. But they are one of the worst. Almost all other armies have at least a few improvements. And every army has multiple units that can deal with any of ours. As opposed to our few units that struggle to deal with many of theirs.
I'm not complaining though. Going to suck it up and still bring the bugs. No one plays them in my meta. I'm hoping that will give me at least a little edge!
You are right. I stand corrected. My 2nd game of 7th featured a violation of this rule, because somehow my opponent and I both missed it. To be fair, I denied both attempted powers, so it had no effect on gameplay.
ETA: that is something of a bonus we have over fluffier armies with only a few psychers. We can generate a bunch of denial dice. But not as many as Grey Knights, Demons, or even Eldar.
Yes, it depends on its Mastery Level.
Why does that mean it must equal its Mastery Level? Isn't it also correct that if the number were ML*2 it would still depend on your Mastery Level?
Yes, it depends on its Mastery Level.
Why does that mean it must equal its Mastery Level? Isn't it also correct that if the number were ML*2 it would still depend on your Mastery Level?
There's a thread about this in YMDC....it's probably better off staying there....
A lot of helpful posts in the last few pages, thanks guys! Looks like I'll need to watch how things shake out a bit more before determining how to finish building out my nids.
One general question- if a tournament format limits players to a single detachment, we can still ally with ourselves now, right? (Even if we only take a single primary detachment). So we can be reasonably sure of having at least 1 extra HQ and heavy slot, even without a second detachment?
xttz wrote: Something I just noticed while reviewing the USR list... Blind has been changed to be like grounding tests - a single init test made at the end of the phase regardless of how many Blind attacks there were. That means Gargoyles can't benefit from it on the turn they attack, and there's a good chance of most units passing the single test rather than having to pass multiple tests like before.
Updating my Nids 7E overview:
~General~
[BUFF] The FOC is just a formality now, opening up use of lots more Elite / HS slots.
[BUFF] Rippers are now super-scoring. Yay.
[BUFF] We can take allies! (just). Gentlemen, commence the Genestealer cults...
[BUFF] Grounding tests are much more reliable. Failed tests also mean you can't be blown apart with every weapon on the board, and are only vulnerable to being charged.
[NERF] Vector strikes do much less damage to ground and slightly less to air, but gained AP2 making them better for beating TEQs.
[NERF] No more area terrain cover.
[NERF] No more attaching Primes to Carnifex broods.
[NERF] Nids can't deal with AV13+ reliably without Lords of War, or tons of Zoanthropes. We're really going to struggle with super-scoring Land Raiders.
~Psychic~
[BUFF] All Tyranid psykers get Dominion in addition to their normal rolls, which is helpful.
[BUFF] We generally get a decent amount of warp charge thanks to Tyrants, and can spam cheap Zoanthrope broods for more
[BUFF] Zoanthrope broods can use 2 powers per turn now
[BUFF] Warp Blast/Lance can be used in addition to other shooting attacks
[NERF] Psychic tests on the whole are less reliable than the old Ld10 tests.
~Assault~
[BUFF] Charges are more reliable thanks to nearly everything gribbly having Move Through Cover.
[BUFF] Go To Ground now prevents Overwatch fire, helping Pinning weapons like Biovores, Barbed Stranglers and The Horror
[NERF] Smash took a major nerf. Crushing Claw Fexes are the best option for killing heavy armour in melee (if you can get them there alive).
[NERF] Poison now requires a higher strength for a re-roll, rather than equal to toughness.
[NERF] FMCs can't assault on the turn they change flight mode, but can still assault after failing a grounding test.
[NERF] Blind has been changed to be like grounding tests - a single init test made at the end of the phase regardless of how many Blind attacks there were.
~Shooting~
[NERF] Our only weapon able to one-shot AV13+ at range is Warp Lance - HVCs effectively had their damage roll penalty restored and won't cut it anymore.
~Lords of War~
[BUFF] D-weapons were pretty majorly toned down. Hierophants have a better chance of surviving a Revenant or Warhound now. Don't forget Venomthropes for them - or better yet, use the transport upgrade to carry them around with a huge radius. Hierodules will still evaporate on turn 1 because they're overpriced garbage.
[BUFF] Harridans are the shiznit. Seriously. With the grounding test change there are very few skyfire weapons that can scratch them. Harridans are our only serious counter to anything Knight-sized and larger, so if you play against super-heavies you should really acquire one.
Trying to catch up on this thread a little bit. Why is it that the majority feels that skyblight is still the way to go? It seems like the crone got a bit worse with the vector strike nerf and did the harpy really get that much better by not being grounded as easy?
Flyrants are much better and seem to form the backbone of the tyranid offense. Crones and Harpies are worse assaulters/Vector Strikers but better gun platforms. We are highly mobile and can reach objectives easily. Crones are needed for Haywire. Plus, ground Monstrous creatures that rely on assault got horribly nerfed.
It seems like the crone took a bit of a nerf to me, i shudder at counting on BS 3 missiles vs ground targets. I definitely see the value of the flyrants, especially with thorax haywire. Sure the crone and the harpy are more sturdy but i'm ultimately not sold on the return on investment for the points and shooting a stranglethorn cannon and spore mines (but admittedly, i don't have much experience with them).
With the smash nerf i can definitely see how our other MCs took a nerf but who really really using trygons much? Mawlocs still have value for hit and run and the terror from the deep. If anything the carnifex got more valuable with a base str of 9, d3 hammer of wrath hits, etc... If anything with objective placement before choosing deployment type/choosing sides and no penalties for charging through cover didn't our foot MCs at least get a buff when it comes to actually getting in to CC?
I am challenging you for understanding here, not to be combatative. Even with the nerfs, to me it doesn't feel like a terrible time to be a bug player. I mean honestly, it's not like i am going to do worse.
The crone did take a minor nerf. Not as good striking, but will last longer. I think it will still be common not a must take because we have no ranged anti tank, and a strength 8 hit plus haywire is still decent. I will run at least 1, plus 2 harpies.
Yeah, while our FMCs got a bit more survivable, we got hammered a bit everywhere else. Our list is more challenging to play and, for the most part, has been for a long, long time.
If we wanted easy, we'd play Space Marines.
We can still drop a MASSIVE amount of dakka on the board. Vehicles will be a problem. I'll just hull point you to death. Honestly, it isn't much worse than the pre-hull point days. How many time did you have to hit a vehicle to actually DO anything to it back then? Sure, you COULD kill one in a single hit, but more often than not you would sit there as the extra armor'd Rhino merrily ignored what you did and disgorged whatever it wanted to, whenever it wanted to. So, same thing as now.
As with pretty much every other list, since assault is more-or-less dead for now, it is all about volume of fire. I can do that quite well. Flyrants, DakkaFexes, Exocrines... we have to work a bit more for it, but we can move-and-shoot EVERYTHING. The new rules seem to abhor static builds, and we don't have to stay still. We can still flood the board cheaply, and synapse is not impossible to achieve relatively cheaply.
No, I don't see us tabling opponents often. But using the new missions, I see us winning a good bit. I just won one where I had a 2-wound Hive Crone, one 12 man squad of termagants, and 3-man squad of Warriors left of my army in round 5. My opponent had lost maybe a third of his army (lots of vehicles and some AMAZINGLY bad rolling on my part). VP-wise, we were tied 2-2...
I got objective 3 cards. d3 if his Warlord ended my turn dead (I had already killed him). Two Secure Objective 2's ( had my warriors parked on it). One die roll later, I had 5 more VPs. One more die roll and he was shaking my hand in DISBELIEF.
We are going to have to be flexible, folks. I agree we have it a bit rough right now, but all of the doom and gloom is alarmist at this point, IMHO. Run some Skyblight with big gargoyle packs. Run some Endless Swarm. Have fun with it!
Unless you are playing the old missions, in which case... well, good luck!
roxor08 wrote: Wow. Why did they even bother doing an "official" FAQ for Nids then? Literally, everything they changed doesn't make any difference.
One question, however: I've seen people referring to "Master of Ambush" strategic trait and being able to "reroll" when they don't get the one they want. Why the reroll?
If you're Battle Forged, you get to re-roll Warlord trait....
I agree that we have to be flexible to win the Maelstrom of war missions. What I object to is that our codex has been made much, much less flexible. We are slow. We need Synapse. We depend on cover for survivability. We can't deal with AV 13 and 14, or really any AV in assault.
We are going to keep winning some games, but we now have 3 times as many auto-lose matchups as we did in 6th. No amount of optimistic thinking is going to help you kill 9 super-scoring drop pods, and the troops in them.
I agree that we have to be flexible to win the Maelstrom of war missions. What I object to is that our codex has been made much, much less flexible. We are slow. We need Synapse. We depend on cover for survivability. We can't deal with AV 13 and 14, or really any AV in assault.
We are going to keep winning some games, but we now have 3 times as many auto-lose matchups as we did in 6th. No amount of optimistic thinking is going to help you kill 9 super-scoring drop pods, and the troops in them.
Mawlocs certainly will, however. I think Biovores will also be important. It is sadly true that Nids can lay down the dakka pretty well for an army that is supposed to assault and knaw your face off. Then again, maybe this will herald the return of the turn 2 "whole army arrives at once" strategy. What if we worked the venomthrope into the bastion such that our two flyrants could glide forward on turn one while jinking to achieve 2+ cover? They could then assault things on turn 2, tying up units that would like to shoot at the mawlocs that could land on the table accidentally (or on purpose after destroying a unit entirely). And as much as I like a Fex as an answer to armor, it just won't get the chance against a smart opponent. The tank can simply out-maneuver it. Perhaps stealers could thrive in a list like this where they are the third most menacing threat (behind the flyrants, not behind the mawloc if your opponent is smart)
jifel wrote:So shadows now sucks huge kroot balls. Great. Really Gw? It wasn't hard.
It's super sad that SitW doesn't prevent powers directly. However it does mean that psyker's, when casting the big money powers (and are rolling 7-9 D6 to do so reliably at 75%+) are going to die horrible horrible deaths on 50/50 odds.
This is, of course, assuming they are LD10, reducing to LD7. These horrors & heralds people are talking about taking by the bucket load... the horrors provide the dice, sure, but the heralds? LD8. Thats now LD5 due to SitW.
Just try rolling 7-8+ D6 and see how many 6's you get. Then have a look @ the perils table (TLR - It's really bad for daemons... and everyone else).
Edit: With scoring being as it is, I'm going to try the following; 4x Flyrants 1x Crone 3x Mawlocs
Embrace the Unbound element, basically ignoring the troop tax (Command Benefits can do one!), adding in a ton of mobility & having a pretty TAC list. Fluffy too!
This has been discussed a bit in a few threads. It looks like since Broodlords don't actually roll their powers, they don't get Psychic Focus. So Broodlords are stuck with just The Horror. (Which is not exactly a bad power with the buff to pinning attacks!)
This doesn't make any sense.....
Since the Broodlord is the only psykers who isn't also a synapse creature, then that rule MUST be aimed at him...
Although being ML 1 means he can only cast 1 power a turn anyway. As it states, in bold, in the rule book.
Let's be real, it wouldn't be the first time GW added "clarifications" that made 0 sense.
These are the relevant rules, presented for discussion:
Psychic Focus (rulebook page 22)
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (eve if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers. (rest goes on to discuss losing psychic focus if you gain powers from another discipline, how Force doesn't count, and chaos psychic focus.)
Generating Psychic Powers[b] (rulebook page 23)
Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. This is done openly, so both you and your opponent are aware of the power(s) each Psyker has generated. If your army includes more than one Psyker, you can choose the order in which you generate their powers.
In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed - where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.
To randomly generate a psychic power, (do some stuff; rules snipped for both copyright and brevity).
Primaris Powers (subsection of [b]Generating Psychic Powers above
Immediately after generating a psychic power, a Psyker can always choose to substitute the power generated for the discipline's primaris power.
Basically it will come down to "does having a set power list count as 'generating psychic powers' or not"? I would posit it does not. After all if it did count as generating, you would be able so swap specifically noted powers for the primaris, which we all know is not allowed. Subbing for the primaris doesn't require the power be randomly generated, simply that it be generated. If getting a specific power is counted as "generating" that power, why can't we swap for Primaris? (Aside from it being a moot point for Broodlords; I'm speaking in general rules terms at this point).
This probably really belongs in YMDC, so I've crossposted it there.
So I've seen a number of references to expanded rules for the Hierophant in an Imperial Armour book. Could somebody please fill me in as to which book has these rules? Because I'm seriously intrigued by the idea of transporting Stealers on a Hierophant
More on topic, I think that overall Nids got the short end of the stick in 7th. The main reason for this is the fact that Nids have trouble spreading out in order to claim the now quite numerous objectives on the board without babysitting. Of course, that won't stop me from playing my bugs and snacking on some man flesh.
It wasn't an effective test of my ability to deal with heavy armor, because my Ork friend popped both Land Raiders, and our opponent conceded on turn 3. I did manage to make good use of flyrants with E.Grubs. Thanks to the greater survivability of the flyrants, I played them very aggressively, and was able to catch 2 Rhinos with 1 Template, and 6 Snipers + a Land Raider with the second. I also fired off Warp blast from a flyrant in both turns, and immobilized a Rhino once, and Killed 7 Devastators with an assist from some Lootas for first blood. The Crone never came in, and the Carnifexes rolled a 2 for their onslaught run, and didn't manage to get into range. If I had been able to shoot on turn 3, I would have killed one Rhino with the Fexes, and the immobilized one + 8 Marines would have got a taste of my Egrubs. My other flyrant was probably going to pop the last rhino.
Overall, I think I might have underestimated the usefulness of E.Grubs on a flyrant It can only take one vehicle hit point, but because of the size of the template, I can often do more damage than that single HP. But mainly, I think that Warp Blast is awesome for a flyrant now that I don't have to shoot it at the same target as my TL-Devourers and it doesn't count as shooting one weapon. I had a few situations where I missed the vector strike as a way to kill marines, and boy would I have liked to get into assault from Flying on Turn 3, but I think the Flyrant is probably net buffed by the edition, and even more critical to tyranids than before.
I killed lots of marines, Devestators, Scouts, and several rhinos, and ended the game having lost a total of 3 HGaunts. My Ally lost 20 Ork boyz, 3 Gretchin, and a Battle wagon, and killed 2 Land Speeders, a bunch of scouts, a bunch of marines, and both Land Raiders.
It's undeniable we have been nerfed... the missions play to our disadvantages, assault has for some reason been given more nerfs, and tanks getting buffed + Nids being the only army with no vehicles is directly equivalent to a direct Tyranid nerf. Not to mention all the smaller things like Vector Strike nerfs and fortification in deployment, which technically does affect every army, but is really the most relevant to us.
I just don't understand it. Nerfs to smash? Why? Just to ensure we have NO way to deal with the coming superlandraider rampage?
It isn't all bad however, as we can now take allies. This is where I think my focus will be for competitive matchs. Not sure what the best anti-tank that can be allied in is. Obviously with the CtA restrictions, positioning is relevant, as such it will likely be best have to be something that hangs backfield and can deal with Heavy Armor, or starts in reserves and deepstrikes/enters as a flyer. Have a few ideas, but would love to hear some suggestions.
SHUPPET wrote: I just don't understand it. Nerfs to smash? Why?
Well you see, people were complaining about Riptides and Wraithknights being overpowered, so GW took out their Decisions Dartboard, put pieces of paper with all the things those two units had in common on it, and the dart hit "Smash", so they nerfed it.
SHUPPET wrote: It's undeniable we have been nerfed... the missions play to our disadvantages, assault has for some reason been given more nerfs, and tanks getting buffed + Nids being the only army with no vehicles is directly equivalent to a direct Tyranid nerf. Not to mention all the smaller things like Vector Strike nerfs and fortification in deployment, which technically does affect every army, but is really the most relevant to us.
I just don't understand it. Nerfs to smash? Why? Just to ensure we have NO way to deal with the coming superlandraider rampage?
It isn't all bad however, as we can now take allies. This is where I think my focus will be for competitive matchs. Not sure what the best anti-tank that can be allied in is. Obviously with the CtA restrictions, positioning is relevant, as such it will likely be best have to be something that hangs backfield and can deal with Heavy Armor, or starts in reserves and deepstrikes/enters as a flyer. Have a few ideas, but would love to hear some suggestions.
The fact that we can ally with ourselves and the increasing acceptance of Dataslates is worth 7th edition for Nid players IMO.
Arguably no one benefits more from allying with themselves more than we do.
Synaptic Lynchpin - Uh....what? Every single HQ choice we have that can roll for Warlord traits on the table has Synapse. The only ones that don't have predetermined Warlord Traits already.
One could argue for Unbound...but...uh....what exactly would you take as a Warlord in an Unbound army that doesn't have synapse or pre-determined Warlord traits?
As I'm not a Tyranid player, there isn't a whole lot I can really contribute to this thread.
But, I just wanted to say that I find it utterly hilarious in a sad kind of way that it's literally impossible for a rupture cannon to one-shot an ork trukk or a venom now.
DarkStarSabre wrote:...I have to say...looking at the 7th ed. FAQ.
Synaptic Lynchpin - Uh....what? Every single HQ choice we have that can roll for Warlord traits on the table has Synapse. The only ones that don't have predetermined Warlord Traits already.
One could argue for Unbound...but...uh....what exactly would you take as a Warlord in an Unbound army that doesn't have synapse or pre-determined Warlord traits?
Any character can be the warlord and still roll on the warlord traits table - the red terror is a non-synapse creature character, as is a Broodlord.
BlaxicanX wrote:As I'm not a Tyranid player, there isn't a whole lot I can really contribute to this thread.
But, I just wanted to say that I find it utterly hilarious in a sad kind of way that it's literally impossible for a rupture cannon to one-shot an ork trukk or a venom now.
Yes they can - open topped vehicles still get +1 to damage results.
So, from YMDC and the rulebook wording, it seems we have to take two Combined Arms Detachments (CADs) to get more slots- we can't actually "ally" with ourselves, despite the battle brothers chart.
The relevant rule:
Allied Detachment
...
All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction).
I'm not anticipating events wanting two CADs and the silliness it brings, so looks like I'll have to plan to get my extra slots through dataslates for now. Thoughts appreciated here. Would've loved to ally with myself for just one extra slot of everything, it's much more palatable... but also against the rules!
djm55 wrote:So I've seen a number of references to expanded rules for the Hierophant in an Imperial Armour book. Could somebody please fill me in as to which book has these rules? Because I'm seriously intrigued by the idea of transporting Stealers on a Hierophant
Basically for 50pts you can treat the Hierophant as an assault transport with a capacity of 20.
The other upgrades include a skyfire weapon, a hellstorm weapon, a super-spore mine launcher with apoc barrage, and a stronger version of acid blood that can do a decent amount of damage to enemies in combat.
RiTides wrote:
One general question- if a tournament format limits players to a single detachment, we can still ally with ourselves now, right? (Even if we only take a single primary detachment). So we can be reasonably sure of having at least 1 extra HQ and heavy slot, even without a second detachment?
Technically we can't ally with ourselves, as Allied detachments must be a different faction. We can however take multiple 'combined arms' detachments, each with 1 HQ 2 Troops minimum. 7th edition removed the requirement of 2000pts to do that, which will no doubt annoy the 1999+1 crowd.
If the tournament is limiting use of that ability, then you're pretty much stuck with one FOC (plus any formations, if allowed).
Their FAQ (that came out yesterday) explicitly states that Marines indeed can take ally detachments of Marines, provided they are different chapter tactics from the primary.
RiTides wrote: So, from YMDC and the rulebook wording, it seems we have to take two Combined Arms Detachments (CADs) to get more slots- we can't actually "ally" with ourselves, despite the battle brothers chart.
The relevant rule:
Allied Detachment
...
All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction).
I'm not anticipating events wanting two CADs and the silliness it brings, so looks like I'll have to plan to get my extra slots through dataslates for now. Thoughts appreciated here. Would've loved to ally with myself for just one extra slot of everything, it's much more palatable... but also against the rules!
I don't anticipate anyone using that RAW. My gaming group Universally decided that they wanted to allow 1 Primary Detachment, and 1 Allied detachment or Formation which can be from the same Faction. GW has managed to write rules for list composition so bad or at least undesirable, that I forsee almost no one playing them. Demanding to play them RAW will just get you ostracized from play in the same way that trying to play Ovesa star against newbies. Using multiple CAD's isn't an opportunity for Tyranids, it is a trap for TFG.
Yeah, that's why I was hoping we could ally with ourselves instead of needing to take multiple CAD's. Looks like I'll be building a Living Artillery Node after all to get those extra slots.
Good catch on the Marine FAQ allowing them to ally with themselves (if taking different chapter tactics), thanks for that guys.
However, the specific fact that they are given permission to do so in the FAQ, but under the condition they take different chapter tactics, seems to pretty clearly indicate that you do need permission to do this / the rulebook does not allow it... right now, we don't have that permission.
Space Marine FAQ wrote:Page 77 - Allies
This should be replaced with the following: 'Space Marines can be taken in an Allied Detachment (see page 122 of Warhammer 40k: The Rules) even if your army's Primary Detachment contains units with the Space Marines Faction, provided that they have a different set of Chapter Tactics. Units in these Detachments are treated as Battle Brothers.'
Well, vehicles got both harder and easier to hit. There is no longer auto hits on stationary vehicles, but they are also always WS1 so nids are generally going to be 3+ to hit even against flat-out
barnowl wrote: Well, vehicles got both harder and easier to hit. There is no longer auto hits on stationary vehicles, but they are also always WS1 so nids are generally going to be 3+ to hit even against flat-out
They were only WS1 when going flat-out in 6th also... so overall vehicles got harder to hit and not easier at all.
Right. Tyranids can take multiple combined arms detachments however. If the local TO is house ruling army construction then suggest we get an ally detachment with ourselves, at least. It's a fair compromise if the TO is reasonable.
Also I'm going to try using a spore chimney as a counts-as void shield generator. With the FAQ clarifying that blasts/templates only count as 1 hit on a void shield, I think it will be a good addition to my army. Here's a WIP shot:
Synaptic Lynchpin - Uh....what? Every single HQ choice we have that can roll for Warlord traits on the table has Synapse. The only ones that don't have predetermined Warlord Traits already.
One could argue for Unbound...but...uh....what exactly would you take as a Warlord in an Unbound army that doesn't have synapse or pre-determined Warlord traits?
The FAQ is because it's possible to have a Broodlord Warlord. Take a Tervigon for the HQ and you have to promote a Character from your list to Warlord. Broodlords are characters but don't have Synapse.
The FAQ is because it's possible to have a Broodlord Warlord. Take a Tervigon for the HQ and you have to promote a Character from your list to Warlord. Broodlords are characters but don't have Synapse.
So, even a total hose...is not hosed enough! I guess a Broodlord Hunting pack, inside a Heirophant is the way to go!
The FAQ is because it's possible to have a Broodlord Warlord. Take a Tervigon for the HQ and you have to promote a Character from your list to Warlord. Broodlords are characters but don't have Synapse.
They found this obscure ass gak and deemed it FAQ worthy? They still haven't released a non ambiguous wording of the formation infiltrates.... never mind the gang of gak that actually NEEDS to be FAQ'd
I'm still gonna run my Skyblight. Gave electroshock grubs to my flyrants, and some range weapon to my crones. A highly mobile aerial gunline.
My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.
Just noticed that with the lose of Area Terrain, IB:lurk took yet another hit. DOn't have my nid book handy, but looks like that unless you are in a ruin or other whys touching a terrain piece your termi's can't shoot on failed IB test anymore.
barnowl wrote: Just noticed that with the lose of Area Terrain, IB:lurk took yet another hit. DOn't have my nid book handy, but looks like that unless you are in a ruin or other whys touching a terrain piece your termi's can't shoot on failed IB test anymore.
Area terrain isn't really gone.
Ruins are still 4+ "area terrain" of sorts, and you are encouraged to determine what effects your other terrain has before the game. There are example dataslates for terrain at the back of the book (for the Citadel products), including the "twisted copse" or forest as it more commonly known, which is 5+ "area terrain". This is all prefaced with a note that you should create "terrain dataslates" for your own terrain if you scatchbuild, and it encourages you to harvest rules for your own terrain from the GW dataslates.
You can either agree that your other, non-Citadel, woods and other similar terrain has the same effect as a Citadel Wood (so 5+ area terrain) or come up with your own rules with your opponent. Given that you should be talking about this with your opponent beforehand, nothing has really changed.
For consistency, decent tournament organizers should be prepared for this and clearly define what the terrain on their boards counts as.
The IB: Lurk rule specifically references area terrain though, so I imagine that when GW flesh out their FAQ they will cover what to do here. Until then, you just need to agree on what to do with your opponent.
Deshkar wrote: My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.
I've heard this mentioned as a change, but I not finding it in the new rule book. The blast marker now hits models on all levels of terrain? Can you give me a section or page number to find this rule?
Deshkar wrote: My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.
I've heard this mentioned as a change, but I not finding it in the new rule book. The blast marker now hits models on all levels of terrain? Can you give me a section or page number to find this rule?
In 6th, barrage hit the top level of ruins because the rules said it did. In 7th, there is no such rule, so there's nothing preventing barrage from hitting all levels.
Deshkar wrote: My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.
I've heard this mentioned as a change, but I not finding it in the new rule book. The blast marker now hits models on all levels of terrain? Can you give me a section or page number to find this rule?
In 6th, barrage hit the top level of ruins because the rules said it did. In 7th, there is no such rule, so there's nothing preventing barrage from hitting all levels.
That is why I couldn't find a rule that permitted it, it is an absence of a rule that prohibits it. I assume that doesn't apply to Terror from the Deep, because the codex explicitly specifies that it only hits the lowest level of terrain.
It is a pretty massive buff to Biovores, especially when dealing with Tau gunline, and their double movement. My main Tau opponent liked to divide squads over 3 levels to keep them safe from Biovores and TFexes and the like. It is also a boost to STC + TLDev Fexes, but that build got a big nerf, because fexes are so needed in anti-mech that we need to move asap to get there.
I would like to know, based on 7th if everyone is planning on changing their Carnifex wargear. When I run Carnifexes I usually go with straight dakka-fexes like this:
Carnifex (2 TL-Devourer) - 150
They are pretty expensive already, and can die fairly easily so I haven't been giving my Dakkafexes Adrenal Glands. I've been playing with the idea of a CC-fex and how to outfit it. It seems like this is a strongly suboptimal build, but maybe that is because I haven't arrived at the correct combination yet.
These are the variants I've tried in order of how much I liked them.
Varient 1: Carnifex(Crushing Claws) - 135 <- Best once it arrives.
Varient 2: Carnifex(Adrenal glands) - 135 <- Arrives slightly faster.
Varient 3: Carnifex (no upgrades) <-Cheapest
Varient 4: Carnifex(Bio Plasma) -140 <- aka the "I want to be an Exocrine"
Deshkar wrote: My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.
I've heard this mentioned as a change, but I not finding it in the new rule book. The blast marker now hits models on all levels of terrain? Can you give me a section or page number to find this rule?
In 6th, barrage hit the top level of ruins because the rules said it did. In 7th, there is no such rule, so there's nothing preventing barrage from hitting all levels.
I thought this, but someone at my club mentioned that the book tells you to refer to stronghold assault? I've yet to find the reference myself though?
Deshkar wrote: My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.
I've heard this mentioned as a change, but I not finding it in the new rule book. The blast marker now hits models on all levels of terrain? Can you give me a section or page number to find this rule?
In 6th, barrage hit the top level of ruins because the rules said it did. In 7th, there is no such rule, so there's nothing preventing barrage from hitting all levels.
I thought this, but someone at my club mentioned that the book tells you to refer to stronghold assault? I've yet to find the reference myself though?
IIRC it says to look down through the template from above, and all models visible underneath take a hit. So taking that literally, then, wouldn't models under ruins not be visible and thus not hit?
Deshkar wrote: My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.
I've heard this mentioned as a change, but I not finding it in the new rule book. The blast marker now hits models on all levels of terrain? Can you give me a section or page number to find this rule?
In 6th, barrage hit the top level of ruins because the rules said it did. In 7th, there is no such rule, so there's nothing preventing barrage from hitting all levels.
I thought this, but someone at my club mentioned that the book tells you to refer to stronghold assault? I've yet to find the reference myself though?
IIRC it says to look down through the template from above, and all models visible underneath take a hit. So taking that literally, then, wouldn't models under ruins not be visible and thus not hit?
Nope. It is all models underneath it. They don't have to be visible. Like Vector strike.
If that doesn't make sense for barrage, it is the same rules for Flame templates. You should have no problem flaming lower levels of terrain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After a few experiments, and a lot of Theory-Hammer, I've arrived at my new 1850 TAC list. It isn't near as good as my 6th edition TAC list, but it has a similar ability to deal with vehicles, and that is going to be needed.
Spoiler:
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Tyrant (Wings, 2 TL-Devourers, E. Grubs)
Venom
Zoey
Zoey
20 HGaunts (Toxin Sacs) <- MC insurance, because of loss of Smash.
Tervigon (E. Grubs) <- Objective Secured
30 TGaunts (Fleshborers) <- Tarpit / Bubblewrap
15 Gargoyles <- Tarpit / Bubblewrap.
Crone
Crone
Biovore <- anti Hoard
2 Carnifex (2 TL-Devourers) <- Midfield board control
I should be able to take out 1 anti-air tank turn one. (4 Tentaclids = 1.66 HP, Warp Lance or a Dakka Flyrant should be able to finish it). If needed, I can fly 12" forward with the venom for support, and the Gargoyles for Bubblewrap and claim a 3+ cover or a 2+ Jink. I will try to use my flyrants's E.Grubs any time I can get either 2 vehicles or 1 Vehicle and 4+ models. With D6 + 9 Warp charges, I should be able to cast Warp Lance from one of my flyrants once a turn, and either kill some MEQ or take a HP. I'm leaning toward using Fleshborers over spinefists again to give me a chance to take potshots at AV 10 stuff. If facing super scoring Drop Pods, I should be able to kill 3-4 a turn while still giving a good account against whatever they dropped off. I think I can handle Rhino Spam. I will essentially concede any game against Trip-tide, but have a shot against Trip-Wraith Knights. Guard Blob shouldn't be much of a problem, except for the fact that we've lost precision shot, and so can't take out the Flakk missiles. Guard Mech is going to depend on what sort of anti-air they have. Double Land Raider will be a problem to kill, but I can ignore them for a while, and with all of this haywire, I will pop one eventually. I can probably deal with 3 Wave Serpents, but not more than that. I will plan to roll on Strategic Warlord traits hoping that I will get Master of Ambush. If so, I will Infiltrate the Venom, Dakkafexes, and either the Tervigon (I have 1st turn, or good terrain) or the TGaunts (Bad Terrain and 2nd turn). I don't have any answer for Grey Knights, but hope that I can deny their force weapon activations.
If you get warp Lance on a flyrant. You still have to generate your powers randomly, and a psyker can't cast a power it doesn't know. Relying on warp Lance from your Flyrants is a touch of a gamble. But overall I like the list a lot. Thinking about running something mildly similar.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of you get warp Lance on a flyrant. You still have to generate your powers randomly, and a psyker can't cast a power it doesn't know. Relying on warp Lance from your Flyrants is a touch of a gamble. But overall I like the list a lot. Thinking about running something mildly similar.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: If you get warp Lance on a flyrant. You still have to generate your powers randomly, and a psyker can't cast a power it doesn't know. Relying on warp Lance from your Flyrants is a touch of a gamble.
True, but rolling 4 dice I have a 67% chance of getting Warp Lance. If I don't get it, it is a bummer, but it means I have other powers that might be useful. For Instance: Catalyst, or Onslaught.
Rather than counting on Warp Lance, I could always take Allies:
Khaine's Wrath wrote: If you get warp Lance on a flyrant. You still have to generate your powers randomly, and a psyker can't cast a power it doesn't know. Relying on warp Lance from your Flyrants is a touch of a gamble.
True, but rolling 4 dice I have a 67% chance of getting Warp Lance. If I don't get it, it is a bummer, but it means I have other powers that might be useful. For Instance: Catalyst, or Onslaught.
Rather than counting on Warp Lance, I could always take Allies:
5 Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent (TL Scatter Laser, Suriken Cannon, Holo Fields)
3 Jetbikes
2 War Walkers (2 Bright Lances each)
I really have no faith in Warp Lance. 4 dice for a 2/3 chance to cast, still potential to DtW it and you still have to roll to hit. Warp Lance still seems like too much of a gamble to be viable.
Good thing Zoeys now get Dominion + Something else so at least can always cast something useful.
I really have no faith in Warp Lance. 4 dice for a 2/3 chance to cast, still potential to DtW it and you still have to roll to hit. Warp Lance still seems like too much of a gamble to be viable.
Good thing Zoeys now get Dominion + Something else so at least can always cast something useful.
In my first game of 7E the other day, I stocked up on 3 Zoanthrope broods and also managed to roll Warp Lance on both my walkrants.
Despite every cast being successful (and my opponent never managing to Deny), the entire tally for Warp Lance damage in the game was 1 HP off an Ironclad (stunned), and 1 dead Honour Guard. The rest of the time the power either missed in spite of BS4, or rolled a 1 to pen. I also missed out on several attempts because most of my Zoanthropes were dead before getting into range to use it. Zoans really suffer without spore pods to get in range, and the annoying part is that you can't eke out a bit more range from Onslaught from them anymore either.
I ended up using a Dakkafex to punch a Land Raider to death over 3 turns instead, because that was more reliable.
Witchfire powers really should automatically hit for all the hoops you need to go through to use them.
PrinceRaven wrote: Actually it'd be less than 67%, as you can possibly double up with each Hive Tyrant.
Your actual chance would be 55.56% I think.
I might have missed a rule. On my Mastery Level 2 Flyrant, I roll 2 dice for psychic powers. If both dice are the same, I reroll 1 of them. I can't get stuck with 2 copies of the same power on one model, can I?
Regardless, The chance of rolling Warp Blast on 1 dice is 1/6. On 4 dice it is 4 * 1/6 = 4/6 = 66.67%
Deshkar wrote: My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.
I've heard this mentioned as a change, but I not finding it in the new rule book. The blast marker now hits models on all levels of terrain? Can you give me a section or page number to find this rule?
In 6th, barrage hit the top level of ruins because the rules said it did. In 7th, there is no such rule, so there's nothing preventing barrage from hitting all levels.
I thought this, but someone at my club mentioned that the book tells you to refer to stronghold assault? I've yet to find the reference myself though?
... for Barrages and Blasts? No. Get them to show you.
Don't ever trust someone that says "It's in there - trust me."
PrinceRaven wrote: Actually it'd be less than 67%, as you can possibly double up with each Hive Tyrant.
Your actual chance would be 55.56% I think.
I might have missed a rule. On my Mastery Level 2 Flyrant, I roll 2 dice for psychic powers. If both dice are the same, I reroll 1 of them. I can't get stuck with 2 copies of the same power on one model, can I?
Regardless, The chance of rolling Warp Blast on 1 dice is 1/6. On 4 dice it is 4 * 1/6 = 4/6 = 66.67%
What I'm saying is Tyrant A could possibly have 1 or even both powers the same as Tyrant B, so the actual chance is 2/6+(4/6*2/6) or 55.56% to get at least 1 Warp Blast.
SHUPPET wrote: Can a Zoay cast Warp Lance as well as Dominion in the same turn if you have the dice for it?
Yes, but Zoeys are transformed in 7th. You aren't going to have enough dice to cast all of your spells, and generally Zoeys can't get range and LOS on too many vehicles. Flyrants are a better platform for Warp Lance.
SHUPPET wrote: Can a Zoay cast Warp Lance as well as Dominion in the same turn if you have the dice for it?
Yes, but Zoeys are transformed in 7th. You aren't going to have enough dice to cast all of your spells, and generally Zoeys can't get range and LOS on too many vehicles. Flyrants are a better platform for Warp Lance.
Yup I'm pretty anti Zoany myself, they really needed drop pods to be useful. However, if building a list to capitalise on Master of Ambush, could a squad of 3 hypothetically outflank provide Synapse to your Fexes or whatever, be in range for Warp Lance, and still cast Catalyst (or whatever)?
tag8833 wrote: Flyrants are a better platform for Warp Lance.
And they're still bad. Assuming no attempts to deny: We'll use 5 dice to try and cast, giving a ~20% chance to perils and a ~80% chance to cast. .8*.6(to hit)*.6(pen)*.3(desired result - immob is okay)=~8.6% chance for an okay result. Before they bother to deny.
PrinceRaven wrote: Actually it'd be less than 67%, as you can possibly double up with each Hive Tyrant.
Your actual chance would be 55.56% I think.
I might have missed a rule. On my Mastery Level 2 Flyrant, I roll 2 dice for psychic powers. If both dice are the same, I reroll 1 of them. I can't get stuck with 2 copies of the same power on one model, can I?
Regardless, The chance of rolling Warp Blast on 1 dice is 1/6. On 4 dice it is 4 * 1/6 = 4/6 = 66.67%
What I'm saying is Tyrant A could possibly have 1 or even both powers the same as Tyrant B, so the actual chance is 2/6+(4/6*2/6) or 55.56% to get at least 1 Warp Blast.
Technically, because there is a chance to roll doubles that are not warp lance, the Tyrant has a slightly higher probability. 1/6 + 1/5 or 36.67% which makes it 73.33% chance that you roll it on one or the other.
I think what is screwing you up, is you are attempting to discount the chance that both flyrants roll Warp Lance which is 13.44%. That is what you are trying to represent in your 4/6. But that is not a failure condition.
While you generally don't get enough warp charge to reliably activate all your powers in one turn, I think in general you won't need to. Thanks to our lacklustre psychic table, most of the time you're gonna have at least a few powers that are unusable. On my last game I could afford to throw 3-4 warp charges at things like Catalyst on the first couple of turns, because Psychic Scream and Warp Blast were out of range.
Similarly, once everything is in range you probably won't need Onslaught or Psychic Scream (because it's terrible).
Also, how does the Brotherhood work with the new Psychoc phase? Do I only need to roll say 3 dice and stand a pretty good chance of manifesting Catalyst, 3 times over for the single success?
What I'm saying is Tyrant A could possibly have 1 or even both powers the same as Tyrant B, so the actual chance is 2/6+(4/6*2/6) or 55.56% to get at least 1 Warp Blast.
Technically, because there is a chance to roll doubles that are not warp lance, the Tyrant has a slightly higher probability. 1/6 + 1/5 or 36.67% which makes it 73.33% chance that you roll it on one or the other.
I think what is screwing you up, is you are attempting to discount the chance that both flyrants roll Warp Lance which is 13.44%. That is what you are trying to represent in your 4/6. But that is not a failure condition.
xttz wrote: The odds of getting Warp Blast on a single Hive Tyrant (2 rolls) is 33.3%
1 - (0.833*0.8) = 0.3336
The odds of getting it on at least one Tyrant out of two is 55.5%
1 - (0.6664*0.6664) = 0.5559
PrinceRaven wrote: Actually it'd be less than 67%, as you can possibly double up with each Hive Tyrant.
Your actual chance would be 55.56% I think.
I might have missed a rule. On my Mastery Level 2 Flyrant, I roll 2 dice for psychic powers. If both dice are the same, I reroll 1 of them. I can't get stuck with 2 copies of the same power on one model, can I?
Regardless, The chance of rolling Warp Blast on 1 dice is 1/6. On 4 dice it is 4 * 1/6 = 4/6 = 66.67%
What I'm saying is Tyrant A could possibly have 1 or even both powers the same as Tyrant B, so the actual chance is 2/6+(4/6*2/6) or 55.56% to get at least 1 Warp Blast.
Technically, because there is a chance to roll doubles that are not warp lance, the Tyrant has a slightly higher probability. 1/6 + 1/5 or 36.67% which makes it 73.33% chance that you roll it on one or the other.
I think what is screwing you up, is you are attempting to discount the chance that both flyrants roll Warp Lance which is 13.44%. That is what you are trying to represent in your 4/6. But that is not a failure condition.
Both Tyrants have a 33.33% of getting Warp Blast
The chance for Tyrant A to have Warp Blast while Tyrant B does not is 22.22% (33.33% of 66.66%)
The chance for Tyrant B to have Warp Blast while Tyrant A does not is also 22.22% (same)
The chance for Tyrants to have Warp Blast is 11.11% (33.33% of 33.33%)
= 55.56% of either Hive Tyrant having Warp Blast
I think what is screwing you up is you've included the chance of both Hive Tyrants having Warp Blast twice.
Also you're calculation method is incorrect, the actual chance is 1-(5/6*4/5) =33.33% for each Tyrant to get Warp Blast.
Following your method a Psyker that knows 5 psychic powers would have a 145% chance of knowing any 1 power of a discipline.
SHUPPET wrote: Also, how does the Brotherhood work with the new Psychoc phase? Do I only need to roll say 3 dice and stand a pretty good chance of manifesting Catalyst, 3 times over for the single success?
The Brotherhood only counts as a single psyker. It can cast a number of powers per turn equal to its mastery level, and can only use each specific power once per turn. Zoanthropes have a special rule to let them fire Warp Blast (if successful) a number of times equal to the models in the unit, but stick to all the other normal Brotherhood + psyker rules. If they didn't have that special rule, they'd only fire one Warp Blast shot regardless of how many Zoans you had.
This means they always have Warp Blast, Dominion (from psychic focus) and roll for one other power. They can use any two of these once per turn, regardless of the number of models in the unit.
Deshkar wrote: My main concern this edition to be honest, is that the fact you can no longer hide under multi-level ruins against indirect arty-___- wyverns and TFCs are really slowed now. though I guess Biovores got buffed.
I've heard this mentioned as a change, but I not finding it in the new rule book. The blast marker now hits models on all levels of terrain? Can you give me a section or page number to find this rule?
In 6th, barrage hit the top level of ruins because the rules said it did. In 7th, there is no such rule, so there's nothing preventing barrage from hitting all levels.
I thought this, but someone at my club mentioned that the book tells you to refer to stronghold assault? I've yet to find the reference myself though?
... for Barrages and Blasts? No. Get them to show you.
Don't ever trust someone that says "It's in there - trust me."
It wasn't during a game dint worry, and I've asked for the page ref. but no reply...
tag8833 wrote: Flyrants are a better platform for Warp Lance.
And they're still bad.
Assuming no attempts to deny:
We'll use 5 dice to try and cast, giving a ~20% chance to perils and a ~80% chance to cast.
.8*.6(to hit)*.6(pen)*.3(desired result - immob is okay)=~8.6% chance for an okay result. Before they bother to deny.
The desired result isn't immobilizing. The desired result is taking 1 HP away. The odds of that are 45.14% on 5 Dice or 38.19% on 4 Dice.
The optimum result is explodes which is 6.00% on 5 Dice, or 5.09% on 4 Dice.
It isn't great. It isn't even really that good. But it is a free shooting attack. All it costs you are warp dice, and you should have 4 to spare.
Also re: Perils (13.19% on 4 Dice, 19.62 on 5 Dice), make sure to cast Catalyst first, because FNP can now be taken against perils. So I'm generally going to cast Catalyst on 3 dice (87.5%), then Warp Lance on 4 Dice(13.19% of perils). The result is 8.79% chance of taking a wound, and 2.20% chance of gaining a 3+ Invul.
If nothing else, extra Zoans are ablative wounds for the unit that help prevent making it an easy target for First Blood. I'll probably run them in units of 2 as a nice compromise between survivability and extra warp charge. 100pts for +2 warp charge and 3 powers isn't bad.
Any that roll Catalyst or Onslaught can just be held back, otherwise they can push forward and either Lance something or absorb fire with that 3++.
PrinceRaven wrote: I think what is screwing you up is you've included the chance of both Hive Tyrants having Warp Blast twice.
You are correct about that. I was double counting the odds of both Flyrants getting warp blast. With my calculation method that means 59.89%
PrinceRaven wrote: Also you're calculation method is incorrect, the actual chance is 1-(5/6*4/5) =33.33% for each Tyrant to get Warp Blast.
This doesn't feel right to me, but I'm not certain that it isn't. I feel like 1/6 is the odds of rolling it on 1 dice, and If you get rerolls on the 2nd in the case of doubles that means the 2nd dice has a 1/5 chance of rolling it, so you should add them together. 1/6 + 1/5 = 36.67%
You could take the reverse odds and subtract from 1. 1 - (5/6 + 4/5) = 36.67%. Why are you multiplying?
Because multiplying represents the chance of the first roll having failed, so the next roll isn't out of 100%, but out of 83.33%.
Also, 1-(5/6+4/5)=63.33%
Mythra wrote: In their Brotherhood rules it says a Zoan counts as a level 2 Psyker, so is a unit of 1 Zoan +2 dice to my pool?
25 points per mastery level, is how I like to think of them. I'm running 3 units of 1, as back field support, just throwin off dominion and any other buffs I roll.
Mythra wrote: In their Brotherhood rules it says a Zoan counts as a level 2 Psyker, so is a unit of 1 Zoan +2 dice to my pool?
25 points per mastery level, is how I like to think of them. I'm running 3 units of 1, as back field support, just throwin off dominion and any other buffs I roll.
How is everyone reading things on the broodlord? It is hard to tell he should be getting the Primaris power or not. So of course it is not covered in the FAQ.
Mythra wrote: In their Brotherhood rules it says a Zoan counts as a level 2 Psyker, so is a unit of 1 Zoan +2 dice to my pool?
25 points per mastery level, is how I like to think of them. I'm running 3 units of 1, as back field support, just throwin off dominion and any other buffs I roll.
OR for really good batteries for your flyrant.
Who is also a synapse support creature with Dominion, and another psychic spell. A significant change in the Tyranid meta from 6th to 7th is going to be Zoeys firmly taking over for Warriors as backfield support units. That, coupled with what is sure to be an increase in the number of S8+ weaponry makes warriors far less viable than 6th.
barnowl wrote: How is everyone reading things on the broodlord? It is hard to tell he should be getting the Primaris power or not. So of course it is not covered in the FAQ.
I'm thinking Yes. "cause any non enumerated Psycher is ML 1. So Broodlord gets a Psy-power, so he is a Psycher, and only has one chart...but what good does it do? he can add 6" to zero? I guess that can be useful, to give Fearless to a Brood...? (Maybe to manipulate Go to Ground?)
barnowl wrote: How is everyone reading things on the broodlord? It is hard to tell he should be getting the Primaris power or not. So of course it is not covered in the FAQ.
I'm thinking Yes. "cause any non enumerated Psycher is ML 1. So Broodlord gets a Psy-power, so he is a Psycher, and only has one chart...but what good does it do? he can add 6" to zero? I guess that can be useful, to give Fearless to a Brood...? (Maybe to manipulate Go to Ground?
From the Rule book:
If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline’s primaris power in addition to his other powers.
and
in the section: "Generating Psychic Powers"
In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers.
So he still gets "The Horror", but now he also gets Dominion. He can only cast 1 a turn. Dominion gives him a 6" Synapse bubble.
barnowl wrote: How is everyone reading things on the broodlord? It is hard to tell he should be getting the Primaris power or not. So of course it is not covered in the FAQ.
I'm thinking Yes. "cause any non enumerated Psycher is ML 1. So Broodlord gets a Psy-power, so he is a Psycher, and only has one chart...but what good does it do? he can add 6" to zero? I guess that can be useful, to give Fearless to a Brood...? (Maybe to manipulate Go to Ground?)
this can be very useful in fast moving lists that need advanced synapse units. Either outflank or infiltrate him and let the swarm catch up.
The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.
Is your argument that the Broodlord is not ML:1, or that the ML:1 psychers can use more than one Psychic power a turn?
Nah it's just some RAW argument that it's not clear, it's not clear that you can only cast one spell but it also is not clear you can cast more than your mastery. It just says your number of spells per turn "depend" on your mastery. Doesn't say which way it depends but HIWPI is number of spells per turn = mastery level.
The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.
Is your argument that the Broodlord is not ML:1, or that the ML:1 psychers can use more than one Psychic power a turn?
It's that there's no actual limit in that sentence.
If the number of powers you can use each turn is twice your mastery level, it depends on your mastery level.
If the number of powers you can use each turn is your mastery level squared, it depends on your mastery level.
There isn't enough information in that sentence to really know wtf they meant.
Yeah, I think the role for Zoeys has changed from "Heavy Support bought with Elite selections" to an honest Elites choice. Run them back behind a blob for some Onslaught or Catalyst shenanigans! Take 3 in independent squads for 6 extra Psychic points! While their old role is a bit BLAH now (2 successes per cast? BLEH!), I find them a bit more tactically interesting now. I can use them to lure out a few Deny rolls on my opponent before tipping my hand on what I REALLY plan to do (Warp Lance with a Tyrant, Catalyst with a Tyrant... Tyrant-stuff with a Tyrant). Psychic Phase is like a game of poker now... lots of bluffing and odds.
I still think that, for 100 pts. for 2, they are solid choices. We'll see how the lists change, though... we might see an upswing in Str8 weapons now that vehicles got buffed. More lists will have to rely on mass hull point popping.
I have the money saved up to buy one or the other. I like the look of both, leaning towards the harridan for the flying aspect/gargoyle transport. I run a flying Dakka Tyrant, putting together a crone, and thinking of trying skyblight over endless swarm. So it'd work out better synergy/looks-wise. And......not a lot of skyfire/interceptor in lists round these parts ;-)
I have the money saved up to buy one or the other. I like the look of both, leaning towards the harridan for the flying aspect/gargoyle transport. I run a flying Dakka Tyrant, putting together a crone, and thinking of trying skyblight over endless swarm. So it'd work out better synergy/looks-wise. And......not a lot of skyfire/interceptor in lists round these parts ;-)
Thoughts?
Both are pretty solid, but the ?Harridan is best because of how hard it is to ground now, it will just dominate the board.
I have the money saved up to buy one or the other. I like the look of both, leaning towards the harridan for the flying aspect/gargoyle transport. I run a flying Dakka Tyrant, putting together a crone, and thinking of trying skyblight over endless swarm. So it'd work out better synergy/looks-wise. And......not a lot of skyfire/interceptor in lists round these parts ;-)
Thoughts?
Both are pretty solid, but the ?Harridan is best because of how hard it is to ground now, it will just dominate the board.
Truth. The only hope of killing a Harridan now is a Manta. Smart opponents won't even shoot at it. However, a hierophant is nearly as tough with a venomthrope embarked inside. SHOOT AT MY 2+ RUINS COVER! YOU WON'T! Plus the hierophant could help the rest of your army gain some dope cover (I call it shroudstar). If you need to, even your FMCs can get 2+ cover while flying if they jink since the hierophant can travel at their slowest speed when it tops out. In addition, the hierophant TEARS things apart in assault. Just don't get caught in assault with it unless your name is An'ggrath. And even then you'll want the charge. So you ask yourself, are those benefits that the hierophant provides worth the extra ~300 points that it costs (depending on whether you run the venom inside or not). If they are, go for it. If not, or if you want more options to take with the rest of your army, then don't. You really can't go wrong either way. With the nerf to D weapons, they both are going to be EXTREMELY difficult to kill.
On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me. Rippers?
I have the money saved up to buy one or the other. I like the look of both, leaning towards the harridan for the flying aspect/gargoyle transport. I run a flying Dakka Tyrant, putting together a crone, and thinking of trying skyblight over endless swarm. So it'd work out better synergy/looks-wise. And......not a lot of skyfire/interceptor in lists round these parts ;-)
Thoughts?
Rules-wise the Harridan is best, without question. There are very few effective weapons in the game to reliably kill it, and in return it gives you a ton of strong firepower, vector strike ability and threat range.
The Hierophant is more viable now that D-weapons have been toned down, and you can do some cool gimmicky things (as above) with it's transport ability. It's probably the only realistic way to use Genestealers too
luke1705 wrote: Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors?
Mixed termagants, usually 10-15 fleshborers and 5-10 devourers. With a Venomthrope nearby it's fairly hard to clear them away, and they can put down a fair amount of firepower. They can cripple most other infantry, and the sheer number of dice is even effective against Terminators.
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
PrinceRaven wrote: Actually it'd be less than 67%, as you can possibly double up with each Hive Tyrant.
Your actual chance would be 55.56% I think.
I might have missed a rule. On my Mastery Level 2 Flyrant, I roll 2 dice for psychic powers. If both dice are the same, I reroll 1 of them. I can't get stuck with 2 copies of the same power on one model, can I?
Regardless, The chance of rolling Warp Blast on 1 dice is 1/6. On 4 dice it is 4 * 1/6 = 4/6 = 66.67%
What I'm saying is Tyrant A could possibly have 1 or even both powers the same as Tyrant B, so the actual chance is 2/6+(4/6*2/6) or 55.56% to get at least 1 Warp Blast.
That is the chance of getting Warp Blast on one of the Flyrants but not both.
The Chance for Warp Blast on one HT is 1-(5/6*4/6) which is 44.44%.
Chance for getting it on at least one Flyrant is 1-(.55*.55) which is about 69% chance.
That also sows there's a 14% chance that both will have it, as getting it on exactly one was 55.56%.
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
I've been using a brood of 3 Warriors in my Living Artillery formation and they've been really surprising.
They never leave cover, they snipe with a Barbed Strangler (which is pretty decent for such a cheap weapon, especially since you can re-roll the scatter thanks to the formation), and they are surprisingly hard to kill.
They are now my preferred back-field Synapse unit, and although they don't have Objective Secured they still score and can helpfully keep any small Termagant units spawned by the Tervigon in line (allowing me to take the Termagants away from the Tervigon, in case it explodes).
My other Troops choices are just a Tervigon with Egrubs and 30 regular Termagants. It works fine for 1k games. At 1850, you'll probably need something a little more.
Baktru wrote: That is the chance of getting Warp Blast on one of the Flyrants but not both.
The Chance for Warp Blast on one HT is 1-(5/6*4/6) which is 44.44%.
Chance for getting it on at least one Flyrant is 1-(.55*.55) which is about 69% chance.
That also sows there's a 14% chance that both will have it, as getting it on exactly one was 55.56%.
Actually it's 1-(5/6*4/5), because there are only 5 possible outcomes for the second roll, results of the same power are always rerolled.
There is no way the chance of getting it on both Tyrants is higher than the 66.67% chance of getting it on a theoretical 4 power Hive Tyrant.
Baktru wrote: That is the chance of getting Warp Blast on one of the Flyrants but not both.
The Chance for Warp Blast on one HT is 1-(5/6*4/6) which is 44.44%.
Chance for getting it on at least one Flyrant is 1-(.55*.55) which is about 69% chance.
That also sows there's a 14% chance that both will have it, as getting it on exactly one was 55.56%.
Actually it's 1-(5/6*4/5), because there are only 5 possible outcomes for the second roll, results of the same power are always rerolled.
There is no way the chance of getting it on both Tyrants is higher than the 66.67% chance of getting it on a theoretical 4 power Hive Tyrant.
Yes you're right, I only realised that after I posted.
Getting it for a single tyrant is indeed 1-(.83*.8) for one chance in three.
Getting it on at least one Tyrant is then: 1-(.66*.66) which is about 55.55%.
So with two Flyrants, in nearly half the games there still won't be any Warp Lance on them..
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
I've been using a brood of 3 Warriors in my Living Artillery formation and they've been really surprising.
They never leave cover, they snipe with a Barbed Strangler (which is pretty decent for such a cheap weapon, especially since you can re-roll the scatter thanks to the formation), and they are surprisingly hard to kill.
They are now my preferred back-field Synapse unit, and although they don't have Objective Secured they still score and can helpfully keep any small Termagant units spawned by the Tervigon in line (allowing me to take the Termagants away from the Tervigon, in case it explodes).
My other Troops choices are just a Tervigon with Egrubs and 30 regular Termagants. It works fine for 1k games. At 1850, you'll probably need something a little more.
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
I've been using a brood of 3 Warriors in my Living Artillery formation and they've been really surprising.
They never leave cover, they snipe with a Barbed Strangler (which is pretty decent for such a cheap weapon, especially since you can re-roll the scatter thanks to the formation), and they are surprisingly hard to kill.
They are now my preferred back-field Synapse unit, and although they don't have Objective Secured they still score and can helpfully keep any small Termagant units spawned by the Tervigon in line (allowing me to take the Termagants away from the Tervigon, in case it explodes).
My other Troops choices are just a Tervigon with Egrubs and 30 regular Termagants. It works fine for 1k games. At 1850, you'll probably need something a little more.
I too take three for the exocrine formation. They generally do something worthwhile and are like terminators to small arms fire (you are focusing high strength weaponry down anyway) as far as troops go they are decent.
However in context to the rest of the army is rather spend as little points as possible on troops (personal choice). I just take min size squads of what's needed for FOC / formations. I.e while a squad of 4 warriors might put in work if you play them well, a dakkafex is doing more every single game
In my trying out of the Necrons in 7e, I found that Kutlakh on a CCB is pretty much unstoppable to a Tyranid army unless you can shoot him apart before he gets into assault or have crushing claws on hand.
Otherwise his instant death AP2 sword with sufficient strength to threaten a wound on most MCs will reap some heads, and the other Dark Harvest IC can get IWND on his CCB.
How bad was it?
I killed the Swarmlord and a Tyrant guard unit without taking a single wound or penetrating hit for one thing in one of the several assaults Kutlakh partook in.
The CCB lord may be coming back with a vengeance and ground pounding assault Tyranid armies look like they're going to be having unfun times trying to stop them.
Over the course of our 9 turn apoc game Kutlakh had killed a pair of trygons, an entire Lash whip and BS tyrant guard unit, the Swarmlord, a warrior brood with a Prime (to be fair I did get quite lucky with the HoW and Sweep attack), and the Deathleaper.
The Tyranid superheavies were quickly swept off the board by necron pylon and Transcendant C'tan fire and by the end of the game, I had 3/4ths of my Army left and the Tyranids were wiped out to the last ripper.
My main pain with shooting Tyranids at Necrons is the fact Necron vehicles are just that 1 x point higher than my mass Str6 can handle.. if they were AV12 weight of fire could do something.
Necrons can also spam AV13 really effectively AND have very good counters to our FMC spam in there cheap flyers.
Works fine, 2 detachments is what I suspect most tournaments will run.
No point in squeezing in more lousy troops just for Obective Secured, just make it cheap and concentrate on killing the enemy army and land scoring monsters on the objectives in the 5th turn.
Works fine, 2 detachments is what I suspect most tournaments will run.
No point in squeezing in more lousy troops just for Obective Secured, just make it cheap and concentrate on killing the enemy army and land scoring monsters on the objectives in the 5th turn.
This is very similar to my 1800 point list....I think individual Zoeys are now going to be the way forward. I just can't see broods being effective for what we're actually using them as (backline Synapse/buffers/ML dice). The Tyranid way has always been cheap and plentiful so why spend more points on something we can get for minimal points?
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
I've been using a brood of 3 Warriors in my Living Artillery formation and they've been really surprising.
They never leave cover, they snipe with a Barbed Strangler (which is pretty decent for such a cheap weapon, especially since you can re-roll the scatter thanks to the formation), and they are surprisingly hard to kill.
They are now my preferred back-field Synapse unit, and although they don't have Objective Secured they still score and can helpfully keep any small Termagant units spawned by the Tervigon in line (allowing me to take the Termagants away from the Tervigon, in case it explodes).
My other Troops choices are just a Tervigon with Egrubs and 30 regular Termagants. It works fine for 1k games. At 1850, you'll probably need something a little more.
Why don't you get objective secured?
I read the force selection part of the new book as giving OS to your Combined Arms detachments and your Allied detachment, but I didn't see anything in there about Formations benefiting from it. Have I got this wrong?
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
Played my first 7th edition game last night, and I'll say this:
Warp Blast might be worse then ever, but I really love everything else Zoeys do.
N.I.B. wrote: 2 detachments is what I suspect most tournaments will run.
You don't think they will do 1 Combine Arms Primary and 1 Allied or Formation? That would be more in keeping with the way many of them handle the broken FOC from 6th, either that or ignore it.
N.I.B. wrote: 2 detachments is what I suspect most tournaments will run.
You don't think they will do 1 Combine Arms Primary and 1 Allied or Formation? That would be more in keeping with the way many of them handle the broken FOC from 6th, either that or ignore it.
Every 6th Ed tournament I played was just 2 detachments...at the end anyways. And we should expect a max warp charge point limit.
N.I.B. wrote: 2 detachments is what I suspect most tournaments will run.
You don't think they will do 1 Combine Arms Primary and 1 Allied or Formation? That would be more in keeping with the way many of them handle the broken FOC from 6th, either that or ignore it.
The ATC is doing 1 combined arms and one allies. No lords of war or formations.
tag8833 wrote: Every 6th Ed tournament I played was just 2 detachments...at the end anyways. And we should expect a max warp charge point limit.
God I hope not..
Are people planning to run multiple CAB's in pick up games? I am unsure as to the level my group is going to take this.. I assume because we are all super cool guys it will naturally head towards something like 2 x CABs and 1 x Allies with maybe 1 x LOW and/or 1 x Fort. I personally wouldn't want to make a list more abusive than this and would feel kind of cheated if an opponent did.
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
I've been using a brood of 3 Warriors in my Living Artillery formation and they've been really surprising.
They never leave cover, they snipe with a Barbed Strangler (which is pretty decent for such a cheap weapon, especially since you can re-roll the scatter thanks to the formation), and they are surprisingly hard to kill.
They are now my preferred back-field Synapse unit, and although they don't have Objective Secured they still score and can helpfully keep any small Termagant units spawned by the Tervigon in line (allowing me to take the Termagants away from the Tervigon, in case it explodes).
My other Troops choices are just a Tervigon with Egrubs and 30 regular Termagants. It works fine for 1k games. At 1850, you'll probably need something a little more.
Why don't you get objective secured?
I read the force selection part of the new book as giving OS to your Combined Arms detachments and your Allied detachment, but I didn't see anything in there about Formations benefiting from it. Have I got this wrong?
I'll check again later but I believe the bit about formations say that units are considered to be from whatever section of the FOC the are from for rules purposes.
luke1705 wrote: On an unrelated note, why do people feel that warriors are less durable than zoanthropes? I know about the strength 8+ weaponry, but they'll usually be getting cover and there are 3 of them vs just 1 zoan. Also, they super-score on their own, which is nice. They also can hold their own in combat for a few turns and can put out more reliable shooting. Sure, they're more expensive, but what else are you filling up your troop slots with if not warriors? Tervigons are too expensive (points-wise) to me.
Warriors are generally more survivable than Zoeys. But Zoeys are such great Warp Charge batteries, and psychic support units, Plus you can have 2 broods of Zoenthropes for the cost of 1 Brood of warriors.
I've been using a brood of 3 Warriors in my Living Artillery formation and they've been really surprising.
They never leave cover, they snipe with a Barbed Strangler (which is pretty decent for such a cheap weapon, especially since you can re-roll the scatter thanks to the formation), and they are surprisingly hard to kill.
They are now my preferred back-field Synapse unit, and although they don't have Objective Secured they still score and can helpfully keep any small Termagant units spawned by the Tervigon in line (allowing me to take the Termagants away from the Tervigon, in case it explodes).
My other Troops choices are just a Tervigon with Egrubs and 30 regular Termagants. It works fine for 1k games. At 1850, you'll probably need something a little more.
Why don't you get objective secured?
I read the force selection part of the new book as giving OS to your Combined Arms detachments and your Allied detachment, but I didn't see anything in there about Formations benefiting from it. Have I got this wrong?
I'll check again later but I believe the bit about formations say that units are considered to be from whatever section of the FOC the are from for rules purposes.
They do count as troops/elites/etc however "objective secured" applies only to combined arms or allied detachments. As formations are a completely segregated detachment of their own they do not get objective secured - instead the formation bonus is what buffs them in the game.
This is a mini tactica on Tyranid Lord of War (LoW) units, or Tyranid Gargantuan Creatures (GC's). I will start off with a grading system and then a tactica on how best to use Tyranid LoW units.
Barbed Hierodule:B-
For its points, the Barbed Hierodule isn't very survivable. It is just as easy to kill as a wraithknight, but costs more than 2x the wraithknight's price. The best feature of the BH is its shooting. 12 S10 shots makes it a reliable ranged anti-tank unit. However, the lack of skyfire means it isn't as reliable in killing flyers and AP3 means that it isn't reliable in exploding tanks (at least not with shooting). Overall, the BH isn't really a competitive Tyranid LoW unit. I would recommend using him in a more casual game with Lords of War allowed or because you like the model.
Scythed Hierodule:C
As with it's barbed cousin, the Scythed Hierodule isn't very survivable either. And just like its cousin, it is only as resilient as a wraithknight but at over 2x its cost. The lack of shooting hurts it. However, it is very fast and it is great against infantry due to its huge AP3 template weapon. Too bad it isn't torrent. Again, only recommended in casual games. The SH is not a competitive Tyranid LoW unit.
Harridan:A-
Ah....now we are getting to the good stuff. The Harridan is one of the very few Flying Gargantuan Creatures (FGC's) in the game today. Due to the changes to the FMC rules, it's gotten both better and worse. At 8W and T8, the Harridan is really durable, especially now with the new rules for Grounding. What got worse is now flyers cannot assault right away. They must spend (or should I say, waste) 1 turn going into Hover mode before they can assault the following turn. However, the Harridan is packing 12 S10 shots. That makes it a great gunboat who is highly mobile. Because the Harridan is a flyer, that makes it also one the the Tyranid's greatest weapons against other flyers as well.
The Harridan has a somewhat useful special rule. It can act as a transport for other gargoyles. This will give your gargoyles some protection as well as almost unlimited mobility. This can also save your Harridan as well when he's ready to assault. For example, he's about to assault some enemy broadsides. Normally, he would need to go into Hover mode and endure 1 turn of shooting from the broadsides. But with gargoyles as his transportees, on the turn he goes into Hover mode, the gargoyles can actually disembark and assault first! Now the broadsides will be tied up by the gargoyles and will not have a chance to shoot at the Harridan. Better yet, spread out those gargoyles and now you can multi-assault several units.
If you are running a competitive Tyranid army, then the Harridan is a good choice to build a list around. I can especially see myself running the Harridan in conjunction with the Skyblight formation. At 2K, it would go something like this:
Finally, we have the Big Daddy himself, the king of kings, the ultimate Tyranid badass....the dreaded Hierophant Bio-titan (HBT)! I just love this guy. He is my favorite Tyranid LoW, especially now with the new Destroyer weapons being toned down in 7th. This guy is ultra-resilient, especially for a unit which isn't a flyer. At T9 with 10W, 2+ save and Regeneration, he isn't going to be easily taken down in a normal game unless you break out the big 'D' units (i.e. Warhound Titan, Revenant Titan and Reaver Titan). He's fast, he spits out 12 S10 shots a turn, he's scary in combat and he's BIG. But he isn't just an offensive, killing machine. Now with the HBT Biomorph Upgrades (found in the newest Imperial Armour Apocalypse), he's become a force-multiplication unit as well!
What makes the HBT so good is that he is a HUGE area-of-denial unit. You use him to control the movement phase and more importantly your opponent's movements. Wherever he goes, you can bet most units are going to be running away unless your opponent leaves them there to be sacrificed. Just make sure you put your objectives close to one another and then dare your opponent to get near them with the HBT around.
Now I know that there are some concern with getting the HBT into combat with the likes of Imperial Knights or other Super-heavy with close-combat Destroyer weapons. I am telling you that he will kill most of them without much of a problem. With lash whips, the HBT will normally be striking at I6 unless he charges through terrain. That means that he will usually be striking before other super-heavy walkers. Now with 8 S10 attacks (9 on the charge), he'll most likely do some damage. Finally, one of his upgrades that the HBT can take is called Incendiary Ichor and let me tell you, it is a truly nasty upgrade. Any time the HBT suffers an unsaved wound in combat, you center a large 5" blast over the model that caused it. All units underneath the blast takes 1W each, with no armor saves allowed!!! Vehicles instead take D3 glancing hits!!! It is almost suicidal for super-heavy walkers to fight the HBT in combat. For every wound they cause, they take D3 glancing hits in return!!!
The following is a sample, competitive 2K list using the HBT:
This upgrade makes an already fearsome HBT in combat even more scary. Any model that causes an unsaved wound to the HBT in combat, you center the 5" large blast around it. Then all models underneath the blast (except for the HBT) takes a wound with no armor saves allowed. Vehicles automatically take D3 glancing hits. Wow. Just wow. DO NOT engage a HBT with this upgrade in combat. The only unit with any chance of killing it in combat would be one of the Daemonlords.
Swarm Incubation ChamberA+
This upgrade lets the HBT transport 20 models. Why is the ability to transport so good? Because the HBT is a huge model and will increase the range of any special rules by units embarked on it. Transport a venomthrope and now you have Shrouding that is measured from the huge base that the HBT takes up! Run your flyrants and flyers nearby and now they are jinking with 2+ cover!!! Put a zoanthrope with Dominion in there and then the HBT will have a HUGE Synapse footprint (something like an effective 24" range). Casting Psychic Scream from within the HBT gives you more like a 12" radius....and you can do it while the HBT is locked in combat for even more carnage! Or you could just protect your troops inside the HBT to later disembark and go grab/contest an objective. With the transport capability, the HBT now becomes a huge force-multiplier unit as well as near unstoppable offensive force.
Spine-cloud SprayB
This upgrade gives the HBT 6 twin-linked, skyfiring S7 shots. Quite handy to have if you don't have enough skyfire in your army. However, the nerf to the Skyfire USR means that it can only snap-shoot at units on the ground. Otherwise, I'd have graded this upgrade as a B+.
Bio-plasma TorrentB
This S5 AP3 weapon, which uses the Hellstorm template, is great at clearing away ground forces. However, it isn't so good against mechanized armies. Unfortunately for Tyranids, with the improvements to transports in this edition, you are going to see more and more transports.
Spore Mine Swarm SpitterA-
This weapon is super-nasty against infantry. It fires 8 large blast barrage templates. Yes, that's EIGHT 5" barrages!!! It'll clear out infantry in no time. Also, with the buff now to barrage weapons in 7th, there is no where you can hide from this weapon. One of the problem units that we have against is the Astra Militarum blob squad with a zillion priests and bajillion Primaris Psykers. Well, this weapon is the best and fastest way to get rid of them. Infantry will learn to fear the Spore Mine Swarm Spitter.
HOW TO RUN GARGANTUANS
A Tyranid army with a LoW unit is very much like a deathstar army. The LoW unit is basically the deathstar. And as with all deathstar armies, you are somewhat limited in terms of resources. The larger the deathstar (i.e. the more points in the army that the deathstar takes up), the more limited the army becomes. However, the mistake that most people normally will make is to lavish more and more wargear/upgrades/etc. on their deathstars. You really need to balance out your deathstar LoW unit with enough supporting units. For while it is the LoW which will be the focal point of your offense, it is actually the supporting units who will win you the game.
As an example, one combo I hear a lot about are 20 genestealers embarked inside a Hierophant Bio-titan with the Swarm Incubation Chamber upgrade. While the genestealers are a good offensive unit as well as a scoring unit, they are also a sacrificial unit that will disembark, kill 1 or 2 units, and then most likely get shot down. You are spending 1330-pts for this combo. It is a risky investment indeed as you will most likely lose those genestealers after they disembark.
My general rule-of-thumb is that no deathstar should be more than 50% of your army, plus-or-minus 10%. Otherwise, the army starts to become unbalanced. So to run a Hierophant Bio-titan and still retain somewhat of a balanced list, I don't recommend using him unless you are running at least 2000-pts. For a Harridan, you should at the very minimum run at 1750. The Hierodules (both Barbed and Scythed) shouldn't be in any list less than 1500-pts.
As with any Tyranid list, even when running a Tyranid LoW unit, you need to take into account several factors. That will determine what type of support units you will need. If you can handle the majority of these factors, then your list will be balanced.
Synapse
Scoring
Dealing with Mech
Dealing with Heavy Infantry
Dealing with Flyers
Dealing with Deathstar Armies
Dealing with Psychic-heavy Armies
For this, I will take as examples my 2 lists from above, List #1 with the Harridan and List #2 with the Hierophant Bio-titan.
Synapse
List #1 is somewhat light on Synapse with just 2 flyrants. List #2 is much better with 2 flyrants and a very mobile and welly protected zoanthrope embarked on the HBT. However, both lists are built to not really rely on Synapse. Both lists run Fearless ripper swarms as troops and mainly LD 10 monstrous creatures.
Scoring
List #1 has excellent scoring thanks to the Skyblight formation. Large block of gargoyles are very well protected in the Harridan and ripper swarms will mainly start off in reserves. List #2 is somewhat weaker in scoring, but makes up for it by embarking ripper swarms onto the HBT for protection.
Most importantly, all the scoring here are highly mobile. Ripper swarms can deepstrike onto objectives and gargoyles are jump infantry.
Dealing with Mech
Both lists rely on the flyrants to take out light vehicles and the LoW's to take out the heavier vehicles. The crones will also help out here. Unfortunately, the buffs to vehicles and the nerfs to monstrous creatures in this edition will make mech a problem for Tyranids. Tyranid LoW armies will still have problems against mech as normal Tyranid armies will. However, the Tyranid GC's will make them slightly better against heavy mech then normal Tyranid armies.
Dealing with Heavy Infantry
Heavy infantry will remain a problem for Tyranid LoW army builds, unless you give the HBT the Bio-plasma Torrent or the Spore Mine Swarm Spitter upgrades. Of my 2 lists, List #1 with the Harridan and Skyblight will be more capable of dealing with infantry-heavy lists due to having much more units (and more respawning units) than List #2 with the HBT.
Dealing with Flyers
List #1 can easily handle enemy flyers due to the high number of flying MC's that it has. List #2 is not as strong, but with 2 flyrants and the hive crone, it is still above-average in dealing with most enemy flyer builds. And if necessary, you can always give the HBT the Spine-cloud Spray upgrade to be able to better handle enemy flyers.
Dealing with Deathstar Armies
LoW versus deathstar is essentially deathstar versus deathstar. Now some of the deathstars may give even Tyranid LoW problems, but overall, the army who will win out will most likely be the one with the better support units. With that said, List #1 is better against enemy deathstar armies due to the fact that most of its offense is flying and most of its troops are recyclable. List #2 is slightly more vulnerable to some of the more extreme deathstars, but otherwise, it can handle most of the deathstars out there. If you really want to be nasty to those deathstars, then you can upgrade the HBT in List #2 with Incendiary Ichor upgrade.
Dealing with Psychic-heavy Armies
It's quite unfortunate that Shadows in the Warp took a hit in this new edition. List #1 is not really equipped to deal with a psychic-heavy opponent, but with 2 Level 2 psykers, at least you've got a slightly better chance try to deny important enemy powers than most of the other armies. List #2, with 3 Level 2 psykers, is marginally better, but still not great against a psychic-heavy army. At least you've got the flyrants to try to take out important enemy psyker units, like Tzeentch Heralds in a Daemon army.
Overall, running a Tyranid LoW army doesn't necessarily make it better or more competitive than a regular Battle-forged Tyranid army. As a matter of fact, it could actually be made worse if you don't build the LoW army properly. The way to build it properly is to make it balanced. And the way to make it balanced is in how you select the rest of the army (in other words, the support units). The better the support units that you complement your LoW with, the better your army becomes. Do not think of the support units as just a footnote in your army. They are as essential to the army as the Tyranid LoW unit itself.
Thank you Jy2! Big exalts for you pal, plenty of us have no experience with Lords of War
What would also rock is a smaller guide telling us which enemy LoW to look out for when playing Tyranids in general (IE whether we have a LoW ourselves or not)
I just played my second game of 7th, I used a Harridan.
My opponent was Necrons. I will say that Necron mech has become stronger thanks to the changes to jink. And CCB are a pain in the ass. On the other hand Its great to be able to shoot Warp blast alongside the other weapons.
I lost the game thanks to Ever Living rolls, the damned Cryptek refused to die.
Terrific post Jy2! I'm glad to see other players like what they see with Ripper Swarms!
The only place I would disagree with you is the Harridan relative to the Hierophant. I would switch their ratings and give the Harridan the A and the Hierophant an A-. No doubt both are wicked good, but I like the survivability of the Harridan more. Plus, can you buy both the Acid Blood and the transport capacity on the Heirophant? I thought it was only one for some reason.
This upgrade lets the HBT transport 20 models. Now the great thing about Apocalypse transports is that you can actually transport more than 1 unit! That means the bio-titan can transport a venomthrope, a zoanthrope and some troops as well!
The wording for the Hierophant upgrade is as follows:
The Hierophant Bio-titan gains a Transport capacity of 20 models, and friendly units chosen from Codex: Tyranids may embark and disembark from it as though it was a Vehicle with the Transport type and Assault Vehicle special rule
Interpreted as RAW, it has to be treated like a regular vehicle rather than a super-heavy, so it can only carry a single unit. It would probably be fine in casual games, but for a tournament setting I'd be prepared for this to be challenged. Probably best not to write a list around the rule just in case - join a Prime to the Venomthrope instead if you want to do an aura thing.
SHUPPET wrote: Thank you Jy2! Big exalts for you pal, plenty of us have no experience with Lords of War
What would also rock is a smaller guide telling us which enemy LoW to look out for when playing Tyranids in general (IE whether we have a LoW ourselves or not)
Ok, I will add an amendment later on how to play against other LoW's and the vulnerabilities of our Tyranid LoW's themselves.
jifel wrote: Terrific post Jy2! I'm glad to see other players like what they see with Ripper Swarms!
The only place I would disagree with you is the Harridan relative to the Hierophant. I would switch their ratings and give the Harridan the A and the Hierophant an A-. No doubt both are wicked good, but I like the survivability of the Harridan more. Plus, can you buy both the Acid Blood and the transport capacity on the Heirophant? I thought it was only one for some reason.
I'm liking the ripper swarms not for their survivability, but rather, for their mobility. The key to 7th Edition is mobile scoring and that is what the rippers give you. You are not just limited to hiding them in your deployment zone. Now, you can hide them almost anywhere on the table.
There are several reasons why I chose the Hierophant over the Harridan.
1. Flexibility. The HBT is a much more flexible unit than the Harridan. Depending on your needs, the HBT can fulfill several roles with the various upgrades that you can give it. It can go anti-air, anti-infantry, anti-horde, souped-up assault unit or force-multiplier. The Harridan is more limited in its role as a flying gunboat which can transport just 1 type of unit.
2. Better area denial. Due to its much better assault, the HBT is much better at controlling territory. As a GC and with its mobility, the Harridan isn't bad either. However, it is much easier to kill as soon as it lands on the ground. The Harridan just cannot hold ground as well as the HBT. Like other Tyranid FMC's, you should only ground him near the end when you want to grab an objective.
3. Brute-Force unit (BFU) vs Force Multiplication unit (FMU). A BFU is a unit that is just mainly offense. A FMU is one that helps to make the army better. The Harridan is basically a BFU. He is a gunboat who is hard to shoot down. The HBT is both a BFU and a FMU. He is pure offense. At the same time, he helps to make the army better. You've heard of the venom-in-a-box? Well, now you've got a venom-in-a-monster. Put venomthrope in a HBT and now you've got a huge (and very mobile) hub of Shrouding. Any friendly Tyranid flyers near him will be getting 2+ cover if they jink. Put a Zoanthrope with Dominion in there and now you've got a massive hub of Synapse. Or if he gets Psychic Scream, then you can affect many more units due to the large footprint of the HBT. You can even cast it while the HBT is locked in Assault for even more carnage to the enemy! Put troops in there and they are now protected until they disembark to go grab the objectives. From my experience, a good FMU is usually more important to the army than any single BFU. Well, the HBT is better than just any FMU. It is both a BFU and a FMU!
Now what are the Harridan's advantages over the HBT?
1. He is a flyer. That makes him harder to kill for most armies. It also means he has better mobility.
2. He is cheaper. You can build a better supporting cast around the Harridan than you can around the HBT.
Unfortunately, the HBT can only take 1 upgrade, so you need to pay attention to your meta when building your lists. If your meta is infantry-heavy, then consider the barrage or the hellstorm builds. If your meta includes a lot of flyers, take the skyfire option. If your meta has a lot of Imperial Knights/deathstars or if it is assault-heavy, then give your HBT the incendiary option. But for a general all-purpose HBT, the transport option is probably the best one to have around as it allows you so many tactical options.
This upgrade lets the HBT transport 20 models. Now the great thing about Apocalypse transports is that you can actually transport more than 1 unit! That means the bio-titan can transport a venomthrope, a zoanthrope and some troops as well!
The wording for the Hierophant upgrade is as follows:
The Hierophant Bio-titan gains a Transport capacity of 20 models, and friendly units chosen from Codex: Tyranids may embark and disembark from it as though it was a Vehicle with the Transport type and Assault Vehicle special rule
Interpreted as RAW, it has to be treated like a regular vehicle rather than a super-heavy, so it can only carry a single unit. It would probably be fine in casual games, but for a tournament setting I'd be prepared for this to be challenged. Probably best not to write a list around the rule just in case - join a Prime to the Venomthrope instead if you want to do an aura thing.
That is a good point. Normally, super-heavy transports can carry multiple units. However, it doesn't appear to say that the GC acts as a super-heavy transport.
To be on the safe side, I will edit my tactica to reflect this.
That is a good point. Normally, super-heavy transports can carry multiple units. However, it doesn't appear to say that the GC acts as a super-heavy transport.
To be on the safe side, I will edit my tactica to reflect this.
I'm just thinking... as a corollary to this, if the Hierophant dies the passengers inside will only take an S4 hit rather than the S10 hit that super-heavy passengers take. This makes it very easy to protect the unit inside. What you could do is designate a Prime as your warlord and simply keep it inside the Hierophant all game (along with a Venomthrope). It then becomes incredibly hard for your opponent to earn Slay the Warlord or any tactical objectives relating to him, while in the meantime you get the Shrouded and Synapse auras.
That is a good point. Normally, super-heavy transports can carry multiple units. However, it doesn't appear to say that the GC acts as a super-heavy transport.
To be on the safe side, I will edit my tactica to reflect this.
I'm just thinking... as a corollary to this, if the Hierophant dies the passengers inside will only take an S4 hit rather than the S10 hit that super-heavy passengers take. This makes it very easy to protect the unit inside. What you could do is designate a Prime as your warlord and simply keep it inside the Hierophant all game (along with a Venomthrope). It then becomes incredibly hard for your opponent to earn Slay the Warlord or any tactical objectives relating to him, while in the meantime you get the Shrouded and Synapse auras.
Why would passengers inside take damage if the HBT dies? It is not a super-heavy vehicle and you cannot "explode" a HBT. I would play it as the passengers are just forced to disembark and take a pinning check if they aren't Fearless.
But the Prime + Venom inside sounds like a good idea, though I would have to weigh it very carefully because that would be 1 less flyrant I could take.
They are nice and what Nids need, I just don't see people rushing out to acquire them (legitly, that is) or the general allowance of them in a game.
The little guys, hierodules, are ugly as sin. I wish they'd bring back the FW Trygon as it was much cooler. Make the prime a GC variant and it might be worth its points.
I'd love to have a reason to work on my Revenant Titan, I just don't see LoW taking off.
Just played my 1850 Hierophant list against a tournament bike list and it was over by turn 3, he just couldnt bring it down even with his infiltrate alpha.
Anyone else though much on the implications of the ANY character can now be Warlord, not just HQ Characters. And if there are no characters in your list, then any model can be warlord.
TheKbob wrote: They are nice and what Nids need, I just don't see people rushing out to acquire them (legitly, that is) or the general allowance of them in a game.
The little guys, hierodules, are ugly as sin. I wish they'd bring back the FW Trygon as it was much cooler. Make the prime a GC variant and it might be worth its points.
I'd love to have a reason to work on my Revenant Titan, I just don't see LoW taking off.
LoW will always be a minority representation in tournament play. You probably won't see them go mainstream for a while (as in years). You will perhaps see them in specialized LoW events/smaller tourneys. Don't get them because you are expecting to use them in tournament play. Rather, get them because you like the models and your friends don't mind running LoW's in narrative settings/games.
The Barbed Hierodule is kinda ugly IMO but wthe Scythed Hierodule actually looks pretty cool. Then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Iechine wrote: Just played my 1850 Hierophant list against a tournament bike list and it was over by turn 3, he just couldnt bring it down even with his infiltrate alpha.
I was using the Venomthrope cargo variant.
Was he running grav-bikers? I believe currently, grav-guns are a weakness of the Tyranid GC's. Against the HBT, they should be wounding it on 2+'s unless you guys house-rule it otherwise.
omerakk wrote: I have been list building since January and have yet to settle on one I actually enjoy; so frustrating ><
Post your list here if you want feedback from the Tyranid players.
Razerous wrote: I've come to settle as 3 Mawlocs as my mobile scoring, any tips on their use?
I wouldn't recommend running 3. That is kinda over-kill, just like running 3 heldrakes or 3 wraithknights. 2 is the most that I will go with. Then add other units to give the list more versatility.
I prefer to reserve my mawlocs for a chance for them to come in on T2. Then again, I usually run a bastion with Comms. Whatever you do, usually you would want to burrow them again on T4 so that they can pop back up onto an objective on T5 (unless they are already on an objective).
barnowl wrote: Anyone else though much on the implications of the ANY character can now be Warlord, not just HQ Characters. And if there are no characters in your list, then any model can be warlord.
For me, the dakka flyrants are just too good. I don't see anyone else worthy enough to replace them as my HQ's. But whatever you do, make sure your WL is durable. Making a Broodlord in a unit of 5 genestealers is not my idea of durable.
wyomingfox wrote: I don't see where characters or IC have the precision shot / strike USR. Looks like dakka flyrants won't be sniping models anymore.
Yeah, it looks like they took those rules away from characters. Bummer.
Iechine wrote: Just played my 1850 Hierophant list against a tournament bike list and it was over by turn 3, he just couldnt bring it down even with his infiltrate alpha.
I was using the Venomthrope cargo variant.
I'm guessing he was not running Grav spam? If he was how did you counter? Otherwise, its nice to know that Nids can compete, at least some of the time.
barnowl wrote: Anyone else though much on the implications of the ANY character can now be Warlord, not just HQ Characters. And if there are no characters in your list, then any model can be warlord.
For me, the dakka flyrants are just too good. I don't see anyone else worthy enough to replace them as my HQ's. But whatever you do, make sure your WL is durable. Making a Broodlord in a unit of 5 genestealers is not my idea of durable.
Kinda thinking running a Character free list and making the Tyrannofex a Warlord. I could also see running Character free and making one of our GC's the Warlord for a true Lord of War
barnowl wrote: Anyone else though much on the implications of the ANY character can now be Warlord, not just HQ Characters. And if there are no characters in your list, then any model can be warlord.
jy2 wrote:
Was he running grav-bikers? I believe currently, grav-guns are a weakness of the Tyranid GC's. Against the HBT, they should be wounding it on 2+'s unless you guys house-rule it otherwise.
It was an all Ravenwing bike list plus the vehicle granting shroud (I forget the name). Turn 1 he was infiltrated right up on the Hierophant, and at turn 3 he was down to 1 wound after his round of shooting/assault after I regenerated 2. However, minus a Zoanthrope
and a 11 termagant brood, I was still full force. Had I brought the Hellstorm template variant, the game would have been over much sooner.
pinecone77 wrote:
Iechine wrote: Just played my 1850 Hierophant list against a tournament bike list and it was over by turn 3, he just couldnt bring it down even with his infiltrate alpha.
I was using the Venomthrope cargo variant.
I'm guessing he was not running Grav spam? If he was how did you counter? Otherwise, its nice to know that Nids can compete, at least some of the time.
Grav spam would have sucked, but it would also have been tailored most likely. Now the trick is getting Hierophants in tournament play.
On Friday I got to play a heavy armor blood angles list with 2 super scoring Land Raiders. Here is a little batrep. Most of you probably don't care about the play by play, but you might want to check out the final analysis at the end.
My List
Spoiler:
Flyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourers, E. Grubs) Flyrant (Wings, 2 TL Devourers, E. Grubs)
Venom Zoey Zoey
Tervigon (E. Grubs) 30 Tgaunts 20 HGaunts (Toxin Sacs)
9 Tac Marines (Multi-melta, melta-gun) + Seargent in a Land Raider variant with Turret Mounted Multi-melta and Assault Cannon, and Pintle Mounted Heavy Bolters. I think it is a Redeemer. 9 Tac Marines (Multi-melta, melta-gun) + Seargent in a Land Raider variant with Turret Mounted Multi-melta and Assault Cannon, and Pintle Mounted Heavy Bolters. I think it is a Redeemer.
Storm Raven Storm Raven
Mission Specs.
Spoiler:
We rolled on Maelstrom of war Missions. We got the one where we could score each other's Secure Objective X cards. Draw up to 3 Tac cards, Discard one that isn't a secure objective card each turn. We placed the Objectives evenly by dividing the table into 6 24" squares, and putting 1 objective in the middle of each.
Deployment:
Spoiler:
We had a buddy setup terrain for us. He put a large multi level ruin in the middle of the table on each side, and then 2 pieces of what used to be area terrain in each of our deployment zones, and 1 small 1 level ruin. It wasn't a lot of terrain, and wasn't very useable for deployment.
He deployed 1st. He put 1 Land Raider on my left flank, and added the librarian and Chaplin to the squad inside. His 2nd Land Raider Was right in the middle of his deployment zone with the techmaines behind it out of sight.
I deployed second, and made a deployment mistake. I feared that his Land Raider could kill a Crone on turn 1, but I wanted the Crones on the table, so they had a chance to use their Haywire missiles. So I deployed the crones on my right flank out of range of the land raiders assault cannons (even if it moved 6"). I put my flyrants in Front, and my gargoyles in front of them. Then I placed my Venom to give shrouded to all of the units placed. I put my carnifexes as far toward the middle of the board as possible (which wasn't near far enough). I Deployed my tervigon behind them, and then conga lined my HGaunts so that they got cover from the venom, and stretched all the way to midfield. I then bubble wrapped everything that wasn't covered by the Gargoyles with my Termagaunts, and then conga line them back to the venom, and then conga line the rest of them toward my left flank.
Psychic powers:
Spoiler:
Mephiston: Warp Speed, Iron Arm, Some other power that never got cast, and Hemorrhage. Librarian: Perfect timing? (the one that gives twin linking). Some other powers that never got cast. Warlord Traits: +1 VP for killing chars in challenges.
Warlord Flyrant: Onslaught, The Horror, Dominion Flyrant: Onslaught, Paroxism, Dominion. Zoey 1: Paroxism, Warp Blast, Dominion Zoey 2: Psychic Scream, Warp Blast, Dominion Tervigon: Paroxism, Dominion Warlord Trait: failed twice to roll "Master of Ambush", instead got -1 to his reserve rolls
Turn 1:
Spoiler:
2 Of His Tac Objective cards were at the edge of his deployment (I also had 2 at the edge of my deployment). He advanced his Land Raider that was on my Left flank very aggressively, and moved the middle Land Raider forward an inch or two to score an objective. There was no shooting.
Psychic phase: everything failed, or was denied.
On My turn, I exacerbated my deployment mistakes with some movement mistakes. I flew all of my FMC's to the large multi level ruin on my right flank. Unfortunately, a 2" run for my Venom only put 1 Flyrant into shrouded. I advanced everything else as much forward and left as I could. moving my TGaunts so that they wouldn't block anything else on the runs.
Psychic phase: Paroxism on one land Raider. Everything else failed or was denied.
He had cover from 1 of my crones, so I shot 2 tentaclids from the other into the closest land raider. 1 Hit, 1 glance. Also ran all my ground units. Score: 2 to 2
Turn 2:
Spoiler:
One of his storm ravens came in on my right flank. He exists his Librarian back toward the object near his deployment zone on my left flank. He advanced his left flank land raider forward, and dumped out the tac squad with the chaplin next to my Tgaunts. His other Land Raider backed up.
Psychic phase: everything failed, or was denied.
He shot his storm raven at my warlord flyrant who was in ruins but not covered by the venom. His multi-metla hit, and one of his missiles. I failed both of my 4+ cover. Only one of his assault cannon shots hit. I failed my 3+ armor. Then his Land raider tried to finish it off. If missed or failed to wound on everything but a single Assault Cannon shot. I failed my 3+ save. WARLORD, FIRST BLOOD, Tac Card: KILL A CHARACTER. His other land raider shot into one of my zoeys. 4 Assault Cannon Wounds. I failed 3 of 4 3++ invuls. Saves were not rolling well for me on this turn. His tac squad shoots at my TGaunts killing a few, and then assaults them losing 1 in overwatch. My Tgaunts get counter-attack from the Tervigon, but is really spread out so only 1/2 of the squad can attack. I kill 2 marines, he kills 7 TGaunts.
I send one my crones to vector strike the Storm Raven. My other Crone, and flyrant advance toward his Land Raider. My Carnifexes, gargoyles, and HGaunts move toward Mephiston. My Tervigon moves toward the Assault in progress and spawns Gaunts (3+3+1).
Psychic phase: Onslaught on the Carnifexes. Paroxism on the Tax Squad in Assault.
I template the land raider, but roll a 1 on the haywire chart. My crone that vector struck finished off the storm raven with a missile. 6 of my Gargoyles shoot at mehpiston and do nothing. The Tervigon shoots at mephiston, and he makes saves. The Carnifexes shoot at mephiston, and take him down to 2 wounds. My other crone fires 2 missiles (his last) at a land raider, and fail to hit. I assaulted both my Gargoyles and HGaunts into mephiston. He kills 4 HGaunts, and My gargoyles do nothing, but my HGaunts pile a ton of wounds on him, and he dies. WARLORD, Tac Card: D3 for Warlord. My Tgaunts lose 4 and kill 1.
Score: 7 to 6 Blood Angels.
Turn 3:
Spoiler:
His other storm raven comes in, but only because my warlord died turn 2, and I lost the -1 to reserves. He dumped the tac squad out of his land raider in hopes of killing my gargoyles in assault. His land raider on my left flank advanced to score 2 points on Objective 1. He decided psychic powers weren't worth it. His Storm Raven Shoots the house at the Crone with no missiles, I Jink, and end up taking 3 wounds. His land raider on my flank shoots and kills my last Zoey. His other land raider kills a few HGaunts. His tac squad kills 4-5 Gargoyles, and then assaults them and finishes them off to score a Tac Card. My Tgaunts lose 4 and kill 1.
I move my carnifexes onto an objective next to his Tac squad. I also advance my spawned gaunts, and my venom towards them. My HGaunts go to kill the librarian. My flyrant flies behind the storm raven for back armor (which I realized was a mistake during shooting AV:12 all around). My Crone couldn't vector strike the storm raven, and so I vector struck the librarian, but he made his invul. My other crone lands to score an objective, and throws 2 missiles at the Land Raider that is down 1 HP, taking it down another.
Psychic phase: I paroxisms the Tac squad again.
I shoot the spawned gaunts at the tac squad and do nothing. I shoot the Tervigon at the same squad and Kill 1. I shoot my carnifexes at them, and kill all but 3. I shoot my Flyrant at the Storm Raven, but only do 1 HP because of back armor 12. I want to try the 10" charge to finish off the Tax squad, but I need those carnifexes to score an objective, so I don't try it. My HGaunts assault the librarian. He Kills 1 and makes all of his saves. The Tac squad kills another few TGaunts (who are looking thin now).
Score: 9 to 8 Blood Angels.
Turn 4:
Spoiler:
His storm raven moves to blow away my Crone that is on the ground. His small tac squad load back up in the land raider. His land Raider by my carnifexes advance onto the objective they are holding. It doesn't score it, but it prevents me from scoring it. His other land raider stays put to score the same objective again. No Psychic phase. He shoots at my Crone with a Storm Raven, and a Land Raider, and kills it. His Tac squad finishes off my TGaunts. About 5 left including the chaplin. He kills 1 Hgaunt, and makes all of his saves with his librarian.
I land my flyrant to move back the same direction he came from. I move my Carnifexes right up to the Land Raider. I move my spawned gaunts toward a random objective. I move my Tervigon toward the Tac Squad. During my psychic phase I put dominion on everything. I shoot my Flyrant at the Techmarine and servitors and kill them. I shoot my Tervigon at the Tac Squad and don't do any wounds. I assault the Land Raider (full health) with my Fexes. They do 2 wounds via HOW, and 0 with their 8 attacks in assault. I assault my Tervigon into the tac Squad. Kill 2, and make my first 3+ save of the game.
Special Note: My biovore has been hanging out the whole game between 2 of my backfield objectives hoping to draw one of those tac cards. Both he and I draw Score Objective 6 this turn, and I move toward that, but mistakenly shoot into the tac squad, when I should have run to score 2 points.
Score 11 to 9 Blood Angels.
Turn 5:
Spoiler:
He realizes that I'm the verge of 2 points with my Biovore, and so moves a land raider and a Storm Raven to kill the bejesus out of it. He dumps his 3 man tac squad back out of the Land raider to kill my spawned gaunts. No psychics. One Land raider shoots at my carnifexes and does 3 wounds. The Storm raven kills the biovore, and so the other Land raider shoots at my fexes doing 3 wounds. So now both of my fexes have 1 wound. His tac squad kills 1/2 of my Spawned gaunts, and then assaults them, and finishes them off. His librarian kills 1 HGaunt, and makes all of his saves (getting silly now). My Tervigon kills one Tac marine, and takes 1 wound.
I fly my flyrant back toward the objective that no-one can score right away, and cast dominion on him. I shoot the flyrant at the TAC squad that killed my guants, and kill 2, leaving a single marine. My carnifexes assault the land raider again, and do 1 HP on HOW, and nothing with their 8 attacks. ARGH!!!. My Tervigon kills another marine. My Hgaunts finally do their job and finish off the Librarian. My Venom assaults and kills the last marine.
The score is 13 to 10 in his favor, and the game ends.
Final Analysis: I lost 10 - 13. The game was a slugfest. At the end the forces looked like this: My Opponent has: 3 marines in assault with a Tervigon. 1 Land Raider with 1 HP. 1 Land Raider with 2 HP. 1 Storm Raven with 2 HP. I have. A Tervigon with 5 wounds. 2 Carnifexes each with 1 wound. A full wound flyrant, a crone with 2 wounds and no missiles, 4 Toxic HGaunts, and a venomthrope.
The super scoring Land Raiders allowed him to rack up Tac Card Points in a way that was hard to match. He did savy maneuvering to keep my anti-tank from being able to do anything. I was able to cause damage, but not enough, and not fast enough. It takes 4 turns to get carnifexes into assault, and 2 full assaults with 2 carnifexes didn't kill a single land raider.
Still I made many mistakes, and did some crap rolling when it mattered (7 Rolls, and I didn't get Catalyst or Warp Lance once!, I only made 1 3+ save the entire game!, A dakka flyrant only took 1 HP off a storm raven).
The game is winnable. We aren't going to be killing land Raiders very often, but we can kill everything else. Land Raiders are such a huge points sink that we can use MSU tactics to beat them on the Tac cards. I think Drop pods are much more of a problem. Despite only killing 2 things, I was impressed with my Poison HGaunts.
So the wife and I are about to start a 'campaign', and while this isnt exactly tyranid tactics this has kind of become a be all thread. I'd like feedback on the current ruleset I've got going. Right now to make it interesting we are going to use NON battleforged lists.
Spoiler:
10,000pt Starter List
Each section shows the limits allowed to spend on units of each particular type, with upgrades included. Armies will subsequently be built from units available from the master list.
Tyranids
HQ -2000
Elites -1000
Troops - 2000
Fast Attack -1000
Heavy Support - 4000 (Including Lords of War)
Eldar
HQ- 1000
Elites - 1000
Troops -3000
Fast Attack - 1000
Heavy Support - 4000
Attacks have 1/2 regular deployment zone
Defenders have 1/2 more deployment zone
D3
1-2 Tyranids Attack
3-4 Eldar Attack
5-6 Even Ground
Total Victory - Winner purchases 500pts of reinforcements/Loser 250
Minor Victory - Winner purchases 250pts of reinforcements/Loser 0
Missions feature two Primaries. Securing more primaries awards Total Victory, if tied then it goes to secondaries (StW, FB, and Linebreaker) for a minor victory.
D6
1 - Biomass - The tyranids require biomass immediately, and failure to replenish their stores could prove disastrous. The Eldar continue to try to destroy the biomass taxing monstrous Tyranids.
Primary - Kill Points (Wraith/Vehicle units do not award a KP. Tyranid non-MC's do not award a KP.)
Primary - Emperor's Will (Both objectives on Eldar half)
2 - Assassinate - The Eldar seek to cripple the invasion by eliminating Tyranid Synapse creatures.
Primary - Kill Points (Units containing Synapse creatures are worth an additional kill point when destroyed. Eldar psychers are worth an additional kill point.)
Primary - Objectives (3 Tyranid Spires)
3. Webway Assault - The Tyranids move to disable Eldar reinforcements by destroying all Eldar constructs.
Primary - Eldar Constructs (Treat each as an immobilized vehicle AV 13/13/13 3HP 5+ Invulnerable. Tyranids win this primary by destroying at least two constructs.
Primary - Objectives (Each Construct is an objective, but once destroyed it can no longer be counted for scoring. Destroying all Constructs awards this Primary.)
4. Spire Destruction - The Eldar take steps to disable the synaptic link to the Hive Mind and the transfer of biomass.
Primary - Tyranid Spires (Treat each as an immobilized vehicle AV 13/13/13 3HP w/Feel No Pain. The Eldar win this primary by destroying at least two spires.
Primary - Objectives (Each Spire is an objective, but once destroyed it can no longer be counted for scoring. Destroying all Spires awards this Primary)
5. Shifting Tactics - The battlefield is particularly chaotic. Both sides vie for dominance over constantly shifting priorities, while struggling to maintain their foothold.
Primary - Tactical Objectives (Maelstrom of War)
Primary - Emperors Will Objectives (One on each side)
6. Moving Webway - A webway gate has malfunctioned, and has become uprooted. This battle is always limited to 500pts on a 4x4 battlefield. Place an objective marker in the center of the board (The relic). Every player turn the objective scatters 2D6 when not under the control of a model. If the Relic would land on impassible terrain or off the board, reduce the scatter by the minimum required to avoid misshaping.
Primary - Kill Points
Primary - The Relic
Discard each mission once it has been rolled for and played. Victory awards 1 Campaign point. The final battle will use armies built from the remaining forces of both armies. It will be Purge the Alien, with victory awarding 3 Campaign points.
tag8833 wrote: Still I made many mistakes, and did some crap rolling when it mattered (7 Rolls, and I didn't get Catalyst or Warp Lance once!
With that list you should expect to not have Catalyst every 1 out of 4 games by my calculations.
Good battle report, it really shows how you can use a modified version of the Tactical Objectives to lessen the impact of really durable Objective Secured units that aren't quite that mobile.
tag8833 wrote: Still I made many mistakes, and did some crap rolling when it mattered (7 Rolls, and I didn't get Catalyst or Warp Lance once!
With that list you should expect to not have Catalyst every 1 out of 4 games by my calculations.
I figure I get Catalyst 75% of the time, Warp lance on a flyrant 55% of the time, and "Master of Ambush" 30% of the time. So I will get 1 of the 3 about 92% of the time. If I had any one of the 3 in this game, I think I would have won it.
PrinceRaven wrote: Good battle report, it really shows how you can use a modified version of the Tactical Objectives to lessen the impact of really durable Objective Secured units that aren't quite that mobile.
Thanks, We used the mission Straight from the book. #4 I think. No intentional modifications.
Ah, my mistake, I thought you were discarding any non-Secure Objective X cards you drew, rather than 1 per turn.
It seems to me that the Tactical Objectives work well if you only include "Secure Objective X" cards, but as you add more the game becomes increasingly random and is decided more on who drew the easiest to score cards than list building or player skill.
PrinceRaven wrote: Ah, my mistake, I thought you were discarding any non-Secure Objective X cards you drew, rather than 1 per turn.
It seems to me that the Tactical Objectives work well if you only include "Secure Objective X" cards, but as you add more the game becomes increasingly random and is decided more on who drew the easiest to score cards than list building or player skill.
The Cards have been rather devisive in my gaming group. I absolutely love them, because it makes me feel less worried about overwhelming my opponents with flyers or Mawlocs. After playing with them once, I proposed a house rule that you could immediately discard any card that were impossible to achieve. For instance "Manifest a psycic" power if you have no psychers. This helps to deal with your concern of random imbalance. Everyone in my group was quick to agree. But after a few games, some players started to blame the cards for their defeats. Warranted or not. One of the more fluffy players is refusing to play them because they interfere with competitive play. Nobody likes my proposed house rule any more because "You have an army that excels at mobility and scoring (HA!), and thus you don't need any more advantages by house ruling the cards" I find this largely amusing, and hope that everyone gives the cards a serious look. before banning them. Because immobile gunline was the preferred way to play 40k in my meta, I worry that there will be pressure to do away with the cards. Personally I don't find gunline fun to play or fun to play against, so any change that makes everybody participate in the movement phase and not just the shooting phase of the game will make me happy.
The double Landraider list I played against was essentially a meta-busting list built to deal with gunlines.
Recius of Frontline gaming had a great suggestion to improve the case of objective being placed too close to one player or the other. His suggestion is 3 Objects (1-2, 3-4, 5-6) places 1/2 between deployment zones, and then giving each player a chance to "Mulligan" their first draw, in which case they would be stuck with their second.
Some of the randomness is actually "fun" in a way that isn't necessarily competitive. For instance, I had a game that came down to rolling 5+ on a run move for a Biovore. That is a pretty damn fun game right there, even though I lost.
Anways, back on the topic of tyranids. I finished green highlights on 10 Hormagaunts, 28 Devourer Termagaunts, 45 Fleshborer Termagaunts, 40 Spinefist Termagaunts, 8 Magnetized Warriors, and 11 Raveners tonight. Grey, and then Red highlights, and they can be gloss coated, and I will have all of my gants finally painted.
In 7th I've decided taking AG on Mawlocs every time. Not only are Mawlocs the most likely MC in the dex to get a shot at charging a tank in combat, but it helps the chances of getting there and let's them put avg 3 plasma shots into a vehicles rear armour, useful.
Sidenote, does anyone else find it funny how full of Narrative the Trygon is right now? He was such a boss in the last codex he could throw down with anything like a spammable mini-Swarmlord, but now he's pure janitor mode. Just like the Swarmnoob too I guess. Trygon is probably worse though, he's a 100pt model, at 200pts.
Now with 8 S10 attacks (9 on the charge), he'll most likely do some damage.
Just as one minor nitpick, the Hierophant actually has 9 attacks base and 10 on the charge, as it gets +1 attack for having 2 close combat weapons (Lash Whips and Scything Talons).
Now with 8 S10 attacks (9 on the charge), he'll most likely do some damage.
Just as one minor nitpick, the Hierophant actually has 9 attacks base and 10 on the charge, as it gets +1 attack for having 2 close combat weapons (Lash Whips and Scything Talons).
SHUPPET wrote: In 7th I've decided taking AG on Mawlocs every time. Not only are Mawlocs the most likely MC in the dex to get a shot at charging a tank in combat, but it helps the chances of getting there and let's them put avg 3 plasma shots into a vehicles rear armour, useful.
I've mostly given up on the Mawloc if I'm facing Marines, Demons, IG Mech or Necron Mech. He went from popping vehicles in 1 go to needing 2-3 and that is 2-3 turns he isn't deep striking. He is the only blast in the game that can't handle multiple level terrain.
Crones and Carnifexes are much more reliable. Even an Exocrine works better than a Mawloc in 7th. By taking away smash, the Mawloc lost much of what it did for me.
I'm still liking the mawloc. I'm just using him a slightly different way. He was never my primary source of AT. He was a major distraction and a unit that could contest. He can still handle Meq. He can hurt light transports. I use Mawlocs becuase they are CHEAP. That has always been my go to reason. Of course I only have one game to judge by though. This is my first Nid list with the new edition and it was my only game so far.
I played crusade against a list using 4 tzeentch heralds, horors, screamers and SGs - no FMCs. The guy had been winning quite a bit using sacrifice to get FMCs when he wanted one but he just never got his powers off reliably in our game. He also forgot Mawlocs have H+R and reburrow easily.
It just became a matter of me trying to get at his psykers before he got to many 'free' units. It was also a crusade mission not maelstorm ... which is so random. I ended up winning 10-9. This despite my e. grubs and crone not being the best choice against his list.
Now I found that I got catalyst off and onslaught okay. I failed warp blast a few times. I also had dominion which helped. DtWing was a bigger issue - almost impossible to get enough 6s I find. But it is hard for the opponent to get his major powers off at times too. Mawlocs will see lots of foot troops in 7ed. I think they have their place and they can take out some transports - although i never faced any in my game.
tag8833 wrote: Anways, back on the topic of tyranids. I finished green highlights on 10 Hormagaunts, 28 Devourer Termagaunts, 45 Fleshborer Termagaunts, 40 Spinefist Termagaunts, 8 Magnetized Warriors, and 11 Raveners tonight. Grey, and then Red highlights, and they can be gloss coated, and I will have all of my gants finally painted.
Nice work on the gaunt factory
Bet you are happy to almost be finished with them all. How are you gloss coating them? Have you got a spray can of the gloss, or you brushing it on
In regards to Mawlocs, I'm still running at least one in my list... I find it is handy for busting up the gunlines that I face on a semi regular basis, partnered with Biovores raining down barrages, it means the gunlines are never comfy, I try to go for many threats so my opponent makes a mistake in moving around and target prioritisation, which I guess is what most tyranid swarms are all about.
SHUPPET wrote: In 7th I've decided taking AG on Mawlocs every time. Not only are Mawlocs the most likely MC in the dex to get a shot at charging a tank in combat, but it helps the chances of getting there and let's them put avg 3 plasma shots into a vehicles rear armour, useful.
I've mostly given up on the Mawloc if I'm facing Marines, Demons, IG Mech or Necron Mech. He went from popping vehicles in 1 go to needing 2-3 and that is 2-3 turns he isn't deep striking. He is the only blast in the game that can't handle multiple level terrain.
Crones and Carnifexes are much more reliable. Even an Exocrine works better than a Mawloc in 7th. By taking away smash, the Mawloc lost much of what it did for me.
I agree with you partly, Mawlocs lost out big with the smash changes - namely because they were our number one smash threat. Which is what I was getting at and why I think Adrenal Glands is a big buy now, and helps it continue it's role. Once he hits the field he can't do a whole lot but tie up infantry, but with AG he has decent chance to pop a Rhino or at least threaten a lot of (rear) armour. Might not kill an Annihilation barge - but I'm sure most people aren't gunna park it right next to him to find out, he's still hurting armor much more efficiently than most other things in the dex. I'm not SURE if Mawloc as a whole is still worth it - but if I am going to take em, AG is a must imo.
However Crones are in the same boat and I actually think they are worse than Mawlocs hands down. I think both have lost their position in the dex's top three units. Not sure where the Mawloc stands now but I think it's not crap tier with Trygon but not quite Carnifex and Exocrine level.
Also while Mawlocs are the only blast that can't deal with ruins, they are also the only blast that ignores cover. It's a trade off, but in an army that has Biovores aka the king of anti-Ruin warfare, I think it's a good one.
Everybody takes crones for the vector strikes, it seems, but I always took mine for the drool cannon. In that regard I think crones are better because they're overall harder to ground now.
tetrisphreak wrote: Everybody takes crones for the vector strikes, it seems, but I always took mine for the drool cannon. In that regard I think crones are better because they're overall harder to ground now.
A STR6 AP4 Template? Why is that good enough to spend 150ish points on?
tetrisphreak wrote: Everybody takes crones for the vector strikes, it seems, but I always took mine for the drool cannon. In that regard I think crones are better because they're overall harder to ground now.
A STR6 AP4 Template? Why is that good enough to spend 150ish points on?
Because my meta is full of xenos players and ap4 matters.
The role of both the crone and the mawloc has definitely changed for sure. They've both went from all-around threats to more situational threats. Now, they're just not as big a threat against ground units - in particular, ground vehicles - as they once were. However, one characteristic that still remains invaluable to the army is their mobility. Other than the flyrants, no other unit in the Tyranid codex can get around quite like the crone and the mawloc. Thus, they will forever have a place in my Tyranid list - though now it may just be 1 rather than 2.
In any case, with the nerf to MC's vs vehicles and with the buff to barrages, I see both biovores and dakkafexes as now playing a more prominent role in the Tyranid offense.
HCs are still worth running one, especially in meta with lots of armor 4 guys. HCs are hard to kill (harder to kill in 7th), tactically flexible (less so than in 6th, but still decent, and, at least for my area, scare people into making silly decisions. Hell, I like Harpies in the 7th Ed. rules; while people are busy dumping BUCKETS of fire into my other flyers, it will be HVC and spore bombing the crap out of stuff all day long.
As for what models I like now, I am pretty much sold on a Living Artillery formation now. Exocrines are pretty swanky, and Biovores can at least hit from 48" out. Probably run a Skyblight and a LA formation, just to have fun with it. Dakkafexes are back to being pretty great for their costs (Str9 FTW!). I can still do a lot with a Trygon Prime, but the smash hit is a bit harsh. Electroshock grubs are damn near a must-buy on them now. Just a bit too pricey for what you get now, me'thinks.
Zoanthropes and Venomthropes are still pretty solidly ahead in the Elite category.
Has anyone else been playing with stock adrenal fexes?
Don't know about you guys...but I've been seeing some parking lots lately and with multi-assault being simplified...these buddies have been crushing it.
ductvader wrote: Has anyone else been playing with stock adrenal fexes?
Don't know about you guys...but I've been seeing some parking lots lately and with multi-assault being simplified...these buddies have been crushing it.
There was someone posting a few days back (I forget if it was on this thread, in thetyranidhive or somewhere else, /facepalm) about running Carnifexes both melee and dakka against heavy armour. They seemed underwhelmed by both when it came to melee against heavy armour (Land Raiders, basically), and were seriously considering Crushing Claws.
I suppose it depends on what sort of armour you are facing. If you are facing Land Raiders, it's worth forking out the 15ppm for the Crushing Claws. If you're facing lighter armour, then you can probably stick to the Scything Talons (or the dakkafexes).
Light armor we can glance to death pretty easily with Brainleech Devs.
It's only Heavy armor we have to worry about (13-14) which is where I used to smash all the time. Fortunately a squad of Dakkafexes is ~6 auto-hits and ~6 normal hits at S9 which is enough to kill/severely wound any of those models.
It's also 360 points before upgrades and they have to footslog their way across the board before they can get to said vehicles.
7th is definitely going to be an uphill battle for Tyranids.
jy2 wrote: In any case, with the nerf to MC's vs vehicles and with the buff to barrages, I see both biovores and dakkafexes as now playing a more prominent role in the Tyranid offense.
I agree completely, however I think large squads of non-living artillery biovores are still dubious until they FAQ the spore mine placement for multiple blasts. I think it is clear that RAW doesn't match RAI and I hope that now GW is back in the FAQ business they will fix it.
Mad.. wrote: Bet you are happy to almost be finished with them all. How are you gloss coating them? Have you got a spray can of the gloss, or you brushing it on
Very happy to be almost done. The small bugs are so tedious, and this is just 1/2 of them so I've been working on painting Gaunts for ages. Here is how I gloss coat them:
Spoiler:
I prefer the Gloss aesthetic for my bugs and I understand that isn't the most popular opinion. Don't know how many times I've been told that I'm painting wrong because of the high gloss finish.
I've played with a pile of ways of doing this, and I've got 3 or 4 methods that I use situationally, but for the small bugs, I plan to use my most unconventional method: 40% minwax stain + varnish with 60% mineral spirits to dip the bugs. 15 min after dipping I take a brush and run it over them to pick up excess dip. 15 min after that I will brush them one final time.
With the warriors and Raveners, they are magnetized and larger so instead of dipping, I will brush my dip mixture on. This only requires 1 overbrushing.
I'm not sure I would recommend someone start with this method. I learned it from someone else, and modified it. The same effect can be achieved with a traditional dark wash followed by a transparent spray gloss.
KillerWabbit wrote: HCs are still worth running one, especially in meta with lots of armor 4 guys.
Crones work best in pairs.
KillerWabbit wrote: I am pretty much sold on a Living Artillery formation now.
Me too. It fixes the fundamental problem with Biovores, and Exocrines are decent tank poppers and good against Elite infantry.
KillerWabbit wrote: I can still do a lot with a Trygon Prime, but the smash hit is a bit harsh. Electroshock grubs are damn near a must-buy on them now. Just a bit too pricey for what you get now, me'thinks.
Can't take a thorax weapon on a Trygon Prime. In many ways he took the hardest hit from a nerf bat, because of his base attacks (5) giving him 3 Smash attacks + 1 for having 2 CC weapons + 1 for charging. I killed more Land Raiders in 5th with a Trygon Prime than all other tyranid units combined. Also Shadows of the Warp got a nerf, and the Trygon Prime was the best delivery system for it. I've been trying to find a way that he isn't a hideously overcosted piece of trash in 7th, and I am struggling. I'm considering running him with Adrenal Glands and Maw Claws to turn him into a unit that is still viable in Close combat against a lot of things. Like Riptides, Defilers, and Land Raiders. But it feels like I'm letting my fondness for the unit overcome my strategic decision making.
ductvader wrote: Has anyone else been playing with stock adrenal fexes?
I've been doing a lot of theory hammer in this direction. I basically don't think you gain enough to compensate for what you lose from not having the TL-Devourers.
However, I've got a campaign starting today, and the campaign rules are going to have me trying to field armies with Old-One-Eye and no other HQ in a single FOC with no formation. I've been theory hammering a 'Nidzilla list built around him. Right now I think a hoard army or a fast army (raveners, shrikes) would be better, but my 'Nidzilla list looks like this, and I will give it a first try this weekend.
KillerWabbit wrote: I like Harpies in the 7th Ed. rules; while people are busy dumping BUCKETS of fire into my other flyers, it will be HVC and spore bombing the crap out of stuff all day long.
With the changes in the vehicle pen table, I'm feeling like STC might be just as good as HVC on crones now. What does everyone else think?
With the changes in the vehicle pen table, I'm feeling like STC might be just as good as HVC on crones now. What does everyone else think?
Agree 100%. The HVC brings very little to the table now.
The Stranglethorne Cannon does a decent job putting wounds on infantry plus, you have the pinning check. The more dice get rolled, the greater the chance of bad things happening so forcing that pinning check on squads is always a nice bonus.
Thats about 1350 (1351?) (18WC +D6) don't know what to do with it...me? I think I'd Double out 3 of the Broods for durability, and multishot Warp Blast/Lances....that should hit 1500 more or less
With the changes to the way blast markers work now, I am assuming that people can no longer hide from the Mawloc in upper levels of a ruin?
And this would also mean the Mawloc hits everyone in the ruin if they are on multiple levels?
Nope, unfortunately not. The Mawloc is the only blast remaining in the game with a levels restriction because it is written in the Tyranid Codex, and GW has not FAQed it to change it. I do not know if it is going to be FAQed in the future, but my guess is no.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I played a game tonight. It was somewhat of a cluster-f** because we ended up calling it on the bottom of 2 because the FLGS had to close. I lost by 1 point despite nearly tabling my opponent (1 Rhino, 1 Longfang, 2 Scouts) while only losing 12 gaunts.
But of interest in the game, was the fact that Psychic scream did me some serious good. I invoked it on my Flying Hive Tyrant. It hit Scouts and Long Fangs. The Scouts made their leadership, but the Long Fangs rolled a 10, so they lost 3 models.
It has long been my contention that psychic scream is a terrible power because it counted as shooting a weapon, but with 7th, maybe I can find use for it after all.
So, just got back from our league night and got unceremoniously crushed by the following 1500 point unbound list:
Spoiler:
1x Belakor
1x Herald of Tzeentch
5x Pink Horrors
1x Lord of Skulls with Skull Hurler (S9 AP3 7'' blast - must reroll successful FNP, Cover, Invul, or Armor Saves), Daemonic Ichor (S9 AP3 Hellstorm, Instant Death, Get's Hot)
vs
Spoiler:
1x Flyrant (only have one at the moment...)
3x Venomthropes
1x Haruspex
20x Hormagaunts
20x Hormagaunts
3x Warriors with Devourers, 1x with Barbed Strangler
1x Hive Crone
1x Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon
1x Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon
2x Biovores
(I know my list was extremely poorly optimized, but I had wanted to play around with some of the units I hadn't gotten to use much of, under the assumption it would be mostly "normal" balanced 1500 lists with a slightly mechanized slant.)
The mission was Maelstrom of War: Deadlock (diagonal deployment, generate 6 tactical objectives and discard 1 every turn, 6 objective markers).
Basically, all the opponent did was buzz around with Belakor throwing Invisibility on the Lord of Skulls and Shrouding on himself while the Pink Horrors and the Herald hid in a "building" in his deployment zone (I assume they were going to summon later in the game, didn't last long enough for it to matter). The Lord of Skulls itself spent the game hosing down my monstrous creatures with that annoying 9/3 instant-death Hellstorm template and grinding over all my gaunts that tried to move to tarpit it. By turn 2, it had killed almost all the Gaunts (between the ranged attacks, thunderblitz, and melee), the Venomthropes, the Biovores, and my Haruspex all by its lonesome. He probably would have all but tabled me by turn 3 had I not conceded at that point (my poor Tyrant got slaughtered by an absurdly lucky vector-strike by Belakor, so I figured there wasn't much hope left after that).
Any ideas as to what to do against that wretched thing? I know my list wasn't very good, but in all honesty I have no idea what sort of 1500 point list I could possibly write that could actually handle that thing while not being tailored for it specifically.
I'd especially like to run maximum model Tyranids against maximum model Orks and watch oceans of short ranged models just crash into each other and tear one another limb from limb.
bodazoka wrote:Your opponent had 8 models in a 1500 point list? he bought a LOW in a 1500 point list?
WTF..
Id pack up 40K and play MTG if my group was like that honestly.. I don't think there is much you can do?
Most people at our group are fairly decent, I just had the misfortune of ending up against our resident "that guy".
Still, I do worry if that list isn't defeated soon everyone will start following suit in order to compete. Besides the Lord of Skulls we also have a handful of Knights, Stompas, Baneblade/variants and a Tesseract Vault sitting in the wings.
PrinceRaven wrote:There is no Troops requirement in Ubound, but yes, a min sized unit of Pink Horrors is 10.
My mistake then. All I remembered as far as their body count was that they were the min-sized unit brought strictly to generate another warp charge and hide his herald (never really saw them though, he hid them all inside a hut on the map so I couldn't hurt them).
Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.
Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.
I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
Carnifex w/Adrenal and Devourers
A metric ton of S6 Twinlinked shots that can hit different targets, Zoanthrope batteries, synapse, and cover generating/scoring Termagants. Should be interesting in a competitive setting. It does give up a TON of Kill points though, but the same token means they cant mass wounds on units.
Downsides are its slow and has no alpha to speak of.
Skerr wrote: Hi everyone. I can't seem to find anywhere if nids require air to breathe.
Me and some buddies have a four way battle on a space station w special rules for fighting in a vacuum. Races that don't require air (demons and necs were examples) have it a bit easier.
I can't find a reference in the dex or anywhere online and don't read enough fluff to know.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
You might try the 40k background subforum. They'll be able to provide citations as well.
But off the top of my head I recall Genestealers at least being able to survive in a vacuum.
( yes, I keep a tally). Am I missing something? Are Lictors mandatory in that case? I hate Lictors...
I wish walking Tyrants worked, but I just don't feel like you can make them work. I love the Swarmlord, but he's become such a hot mess.
But I suggest you find 40 points for Thorax Hives on the Big Bad Tyranos. 
)
I have suggested (but not tried, I don't own a bastion) that Veno in a box, would be even better if a Lictor infiltrated in as well...the Lictor bubble is also from the outside of the Bastion. anything that gets close, gets eaten by a Mawloc! 
That ought to keep those pesky flamers away from your Bastion. 
Sad, but true. 
