omerakk wrote: If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them
Truth...so Skyblight would be able to doubly secure objectives?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have another question...what have you noticed that your opponents don't realize about tyranids?
I recently beat my opponent because he didn't realize that I don't have to kill units to win. I often just have to survive.
And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"
The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?
Things some opponents have not realised about my Tyranids:
- Just because has a gun doesn't mean it can't hold its own in close combat
- You don't actually need to kill my 30 Termagant unit, Synapse creatures are a higher priority
- My Exocrine isn't as big a threat as my Carnifices, you should probably be shooting them instead
- There are very few times in which moving closer to a Tyranid army is a good idea
- It is, in fact, impossible for me to build a Tyranid list as cheesy as Tau
- I don't have grenades on anything, forcing me to charge through terrain is big deal
Last night i played 1500 points vs a Loganwing list.
He had
Logan
2x10 Wolf guard with TDA, 2x combi-meltas, cyclone
One of the Wolf Guard was Arjac Rockfist
1x6 long fangs with 5x Missile Launchers, and a flamer on the sarge
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield
I had showed up with my "Bugs in a Box" list that consisted of:
So at the beginning of the fight I felt pretty confident as I had 9 scoring units compared to his 2. Then we rolled the mission - 2...Purge the Alien! Suddenly it went from an easy match up to i needed to table this guy to win. I placed my bastion midfield, about 1" from the center line, and he won the roll to go first.
Quick note - i rolled Paroxysm on both my Zoey and Swarmy - this was key throughout the battle. As was Psychic Scream, which i'll get to near the end.
Turn 1 - Due to night fight, he only managed to kill a handful of hormagaunts from 2 of the 3 broods. His vindicator took a shot at the bastion but didn't penetrate (lucky me). My turn, i managed to get paroxysm off on both his units of wolf guard, making them WS3. The genestealer brood of 13 bailed out of the bastion, about 8" from his wolf guard and 4" from the vindicator. Warp Lance from Swarmlord failed to destroy the vindicator, so i went after it (with furious charge from swarmy) with the genestealers. 40 attacks later, it was a wreck but my brood was tightly clumped. Biovores killed maybe 1 long fang.
Turn 2 - His wolf guard with logan attached kill 9 genestealers from the large brood (the smaller brood of 7 was hiding behind some BLOS terrain). However, the 4 remaining ones were behind the vindicator husk and prevented his charge. The other unit of wolf guard finished off a hormagaunt brood, with arjac's hammer doing the final wound. Very cinematic. That brood would not return via endless swarm. The long fangs threw out some frag missiles and killed a few termagants, and that was about it.
My turn 2 was when the hammer needed to fall. I paroxysm'd logan's unit to WS2, and ignored the other unit for now. I moved 2 hormagaunt units, a warrior brood (they had gotten into the bastion via the escape hatch after the genestealers bailed out turn 1, and disembarked this turn netting them +18" movement over 2 turns) and both genestealer broods into postion to assault logan's unit. He had a heavy flamer within, so i declared charge first with my naked hormagaunts - he opted not to overwatch, and i then proceeded to fail my charge. Damn you random charge lengths! He did overwatch the second hormagaunt brood but only killed 3, and they made it into CC. The genestealer units both made base contact, as did the 3 warriors.
For brevity's sake i'll fast-forward here - this multiple-melee lasted for the entire rest of the game. Thanks to paroxysm he took apart the tiny units very slowly as the genestealer's rending claws picked at his wolf guard bit by bit.
By turn 5, swarmlord was ready to join the battle and finish off the other wolf guard unit. He cast "psychic scream" and it successfully passed - i then rolled 6, 6 on Logan grimnar (who was alone by this time) and he failed his invulnerable saves - BAHAHAHA. Swarmlord charged and challenged Arjac to deadly battle - sadly, his storm shield held for a turn and he put 2 wounds on swarmy. Then, on turn 6 he and swarmlord Double-KO'ed each other in a very cinematic finish. The rest of the wolf guard and long fangs had been systematically picked apart by weight of dice forcing saves, so my opponent ended the game with no models left.
Tyranid Victory!
I don't always run a swarm army, but i do think it's very fitting to have Swarmlord in charge when i do.
How did you get a shot at the Vindicator on turn 1 with Warp Lance? Did he foolishly move directly toward your Swarmlord?
(12" deploy + 6" move + 18" range = 36", so can't reach into his deployment zone)
Also, I'm pretty sure that disembarking from a Bastion, even with the Escape Hatch, prevents you from assaulting that turn.
rigeld2 wrote: How did you get a shot at the Vindicator on turn 1 with Warp Lance? Did he foolishly move directly toward your Swarmlord?
(12" deploy + 6" move + 18" range = 36", so can't reach into his deployment zone)
Also, I'm pretty sure that disembarking from a Bastion, even with the Escape Hatch, prevents you from assaulting that turn.
Actually, disembarking from any building allows for assault with the Stronghold ruleset...but using the hatch is the only thing that stops you from being able to do so.
rigeld2 wrote: Ah - missed the "Repel the Enemy" rule. But yes, Escape Hatch explicitly says it doesn't apply.
Right, let me explain how i did it a little better:
The bastion is outside of my DZ, with the main door facing towards the enemy DZ. The escape hatch is 12" from the back edge of the building, placing it about 7" from my table edge in my own DZ. The genestealers used "infiltrate" to start deployed inside the building.
His turn one, yes, he did move forward on foot with everything.
My turn one i disembarked the genestealer unit (the other had infiltrated behind BLOS terrain). With the bastion now empty, my warriors used the escape hatch in my DZ to enter it. On turn 2 they disembarked from the regular door, so they could assault with the repel the enemy rule. So their total movement from the table edge to the escape hatch was 6:", the bastion is just shy of 6" wide so when they disembarked their total movment from the escape hatch was actually closer to 24" (12" to bastion edge, 6" bastion width, 6" disembark move) . It's a pretty good slingshot tactic but it takes 1 turn to set up.
Edit - also deployment was dawn of war, hammer and anvil would have changed a lot of things regarding range and tactics.
omerakk wrote: If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them
Truth...so Skyblight would be able to doubly secure objectives?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have another question...what have you noticed that your opponents don't realize about tyranids?
I recently beat my opponent because he didn't realize that I don't have to kill units to win. I often just have to survive.
And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"
The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?
Maybe.... You could take the exact same list and have objective secured army wide...
But other than 3 flyrants I don't see too much that is attractive in that formation, so I think just building a more customisable list (with no freakin Harpies) and taking battleforged bonus is the way to go.
Or just going unbound and taking as many flyers as you want.
omerakk wrote: If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them
Truth...so Skyblight would be able to doubly secure objectives?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have another question...what have you noticed that your opponents don't realize about tyranids?
I recently beat my opponent because he didn't realize that I don't have to kill units to win. I often just have to survive.
And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"
The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?
Maybe.... You could take the exact same list and have objective secured army wide...
But other than 3 flyrants I don't see too much that is attractive in that formation, so I think just building a more customisable list (with no freakin Harpies) and taking battleforged bonus is the way to go.
Or just going unbound and taking as many flyers as you want.
I don't think its worth taking the middleground.
Again, Battle Forged only gives Objective Secured to Troops.
I think Skyblight is just as good, but for different reasons. Gargoyles are equal to most troops now, but FMCs are even better. It's a net step sideways, but the best part is now in the BRB not the formation, making it more likely to be accepted.
omerakk wrote: If the other part of the rumor is true, armies that follow the FOC gain "objective secured", so they can still move in and grab objectives from scoring deathstars without having to kill or engage them
Truth...so Skyblight would be able to doubly secure objectives?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have another question...what have you noticed that your opponents don't realize about tyranids?
I recently beat my opponent because he didn't realize that I don't have to kill units to win. I often just have to survive.
And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"
The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?
Maybe.... You could take the exact same list and have objective secured army wide...
But other than 3 flyrants I don't see too much that is attractive in that formation, so I think just building a more customisable list (with no freakin Harpies) and taking battleforged bonus is the way to go.
Or just going unbound and taking as many flyers as you want.
I don't think its worth taking the middleground.
Again, Battle Forged only gives Objective Secured to Troops.
Oh...very nice Troops is an area where we traditionaly dominate. Add Objective secured, and Bugs get even better! Heck infiltrating Genestealers might even start making sense again. (and Tervigons might be worth their point cost )
Agreed. Our troops are by far our weakest units. Ranging from cartoonishly bad (Ripper Swarms) to overcosted (warriors) to almost as good as a Shoota boy (Devil Gaunts).
Daemons have worse troops. Otherwise we are near the bottom for troops. Our troops have no transports, and limited mobility, and worst of all, our troops require babysitters or else they might eat themselves or run off the table.
Agreed. Our troops are by far our weakest units. Ranging from cartoonishly bad (Ripper Swarms) to overcosted (warriors) to almost as good as a Shoota boy (Devil Gaunts).
Daemons have worse troops. Otherwise we are near the bottom for troops. Our troops have no transports, and limited mobility, and worst of all, our troops require babysitters or else they might eat themselves or run off the table.
This. Troops are the weakest point of the army, and if they are the only things that get objective secured in Battleforged, I think I will be unbound every list. Not because I want crazy gak, just because I'd rather not take any troops.
So "insanely powerful" that almost nobody ever took above the minimum amount per squad, and even then only because they unlocked Tervigon's as troops.
Balanced in 5th ed is what they almost were. Were in need of the points reduction they recieved. However, Tervigon nerf makes them pretty mediocre again.
Different folks play different I tend to run 5+ Troops no matter what the point level, and one of them is often a Tervigon. I have found that having lots of Troops gives me a tabletop, as well as a psychological edge. Some folks build out with minimal Troops (Terv+Big Brood, done!) but I feel they are missing a play. Making the Girlz "Objective secured" makes them even more powerful, once I hit a objective, you'll have to come get me I think this will improve Tyranids chances to take the blue ribbon.
Agreed. Our troops are by far our weakest units. Ranging from cartoonishly bad (Ripper Swarms) to overcosted (warriors) to almost as good as a Shoota boy (Devil Gaunts).
Daemons have worse troops. Otherwise we are near the bottom for troops. Our troops have no transports, and limited mobility, and worst of all, our troops require babysitters or else they might eat themselves or run off the table.
It depends on what, and how you compare. One on one? Sure. But when I look across the table at say Spess Marines, I see two Tac Squads, likely combat sqd'd out. I run 5+, one a Tervigon, I might have 9 Troops in play, by the end. That quantity, is a quality all its own. Short of Orks (that see little play these days) nobody competes with Nids for putting Troops on the table. AM/IG could compete, but they spend points on shiney tanks, and other distractions
But I suppose it depends on play style...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PrinceRaven wrote: If only Toxin Sacs made shooting attacks poisoned as well.
Word, even if only spine fists ('cause it's fluffy )
And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"
The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that....
Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?
I think that would be a definite "yes".
Why is it still good?
1. You can still remain a Battle-forged army and get its bonuses.
2. Gargoyles who can't be contested (except probably by other Bound troops, depending on the FAQ's).
Last night i played 1500 points vs a Loganwing list.
Spoiler:
He had
Logan
2x10 Wolf guard with TDA, 2x combi-meltas, cyclone
One of the Wolf Guard was Arjac Rockfist
1x6 long fangs with 5x Missile Launchers, and a flamer on the sarge
Vindicator w/ Siege Shield
I had showed up with my "Bugs in a Box" list that consisted of:
So at the beginning of the fight I felt pretty confident as I had 9 scoring units compared to his 2. Then we rolled the mission - 2...Purge the Alien! Suddenly it went from an easy match up to i needed to table this guy to win. I placed my bastion midfield, about 1" from the center line, and he won the roll to go first.
Quick note - i rolled Paroxysm on both my Zoey and Swarmy - this was key throughout the battle. As was Psychic Scream, which i'll get to near the end.
Turn 1 - Due to night fight, he only managed to kill a handful of hormagaunts from 2 of the 3 broods. His vindicator took a shot at the bastion but didn't penetrate (lucky me). My turn, i managed to get paroxysm off on both his units of wolf guard, making them WS3. The genestealer brood of 13 bailed out of the bastion, about 8" from his wolf guard and 4" from the vindicator. Warp Lance from Swarmlord failed to destroy the vindicator, so i went after it (with furious charge from swarmy) with the genestealers. 40 attacks later, it was a wreck but my brood was tightly clumped. Biovores killed maybe 1 long fang.
Turn 2 - His wolf guard with logan attached kill 9 genestealers from the large brood (the smaller brood of 7 was hiding behind some BLOS terrain). However, the 4 remaining ones were behind the vindicator husk and prevented his charge. The other unit of wolf guard finished off a hormagaunt brood, with arjac's hammer doing the final wound. Very cinematic. That brood would not return via endless swarm. The long fangs threw out some frag missiles and killed a few termagants, and that was about it.
My turn 2 was when the hammer needed to fall. I paroxysm'd logan's unit to WS2, and ignored the other unit for now. I moved 2 hormagaunt units, a warrior brood (they had gotten into the bastion via the escape hatch after the genestealers bailed out turn 1, and disembarked this turn netting them +18" movement over 2 turns) and both genestealer broods into postion to assault logan's unit. He had a heavy flamer within, so i declared charge first with my naked hormagaunts - he opted not to overwatch, and i then proceeded to fail my charge. Damn you random charge lengths! He did overwatch the second hormagaunt brood but only killed 3, and they made it into CC. The genestealer units both made base contact, as did the 3 warriors.
For brevity's sake i'll fast-forward here - this multiple-melee lasted for the entire rest of the game. Thanks to paroxysm he took apart the tiny units very slowly as the genestealer's rending claws picked at his wolf guard bit by bit.
By turn 5, swarmlord was ready to join the battle and finish off the other wolf guard unit. He cast "psychic scream" and it successfully passed - i then rolled 6, 6 on Logan grimnar (who was alone by this time) and he failed his invulnerable saves - BAHAHAHA. Swarmlord charged and challenged Arjac to deadly battle - sadly, his storm shield held for a turn and he put 2 wounds on swarmy. Then, on turn 6 he and swarmlord Double-KO'ed each other in a very cinematic finish. The rest of the wolf guard and long fangs had been systematically picked apart by weight of dice forcing saves, so my opponent ended the game with no models left.
Tyranid Victory!
I don't always run a swarm army, but i do think it's very fitting to have Swarmlord in charge when i do.
Awesome job in a bad mission. Good to see Swarmy still put to good use.
bodazoka wrote: So no more grounding test v every time you get hit.. I am a happy man!
Is that a confirmed rule for 7th?
If so, then that's a serious boost to FMC-spam lists, bugs and daemons.
I think he was refering back to 5th Ed. tervigon nids.
But in all seriousness, our troops aren't so bad. 30 termagants in Synapse can still be quite good. I'll tarpit your Unbound Daemon Prince on an objective and still score!
bodazoka wrote: So no more grounding test v every time you get hit.. I am a happy man!
GW giveth and GW taketh away...
Apparently snap fire shots are at BS-2 now.
That'll help out Eldar and Marine armies. Fortunately for us, Tau are normally BS3.
SHUPPET wrote: So "insanely powerful" that almost nobody ever took above the minimum amount per squad, and even then only because they unlocked Tervigon's as troops.
Balanced in 5th ed is what they almost were. Were in need of the points reduction they recieved. However, Tervigon nerf makes them pretty mediocre again.
Well, that hasn't changed since 5th, when we were still taking min-sized gant units to unlock troop Tervigons. Just saying....
Eldercaveman wrote: Since we get a codex every edition, do you think we will get a 7th edition codex......
Also I have a feeling we may begin to feel the pain of not having purchasable mastery levels when the new psychic phase is revealed.
The psychic phase is still one of our strengths. Unlike most armies which can take only 2 psykers at best, we (along with Daemons) can actually spam them. Yeah dual flyrants and triple zoanthropes FTW (all of which are Lvl 2)!
Different folks play different I tend to run 5+ Troops no matter what the point level, and one of them is often a Tervigon. I have found that having lots of Troops gives me a tabletop, as well as a psychological edge. Some folks build out with minimal Troops (Terv+Big Brood, done!) but I feel they are missing a play. Making the Girlz "Objective secured" makes them even more powerful, once I hit a objective, you'll have to come get me I think this will improve Tyranids chances to take the blue ribbon.
pinecone77 wrote: It depends on what, and how you compare. One on one? Sure. But when I look across the table at say Spess Marines, I see two Tac Squads, likely combat sqd'd out. I run 5+, one a Tervigon, I might have 9 Troops in play, by the end. That quantity, is a quality all its own.
pinecone77 wrote: Short of Orks (that see little play these days) nobody competes with Nids for putting Troops on the table. AM/IG could compete, but they spend points on shiney tanks, and other distractions
Terv + Big Brood is pretty far from minimal troops.... thats about 350 points, our minimum troops is two Termagant squads at 80 points (well, 2 ripper squads at 78 points but as said - cartoonishly bad. 2 more points to give your troops special ability "possibility-to-actually-make-their-minimal-points-back" is the bees knees. Well worth splurging 2 points on.
Weighing up their value by comparing them at a 1 on 1, model to model basis with other troops obviously isn't sensible - but it's no less sensible than comparing it to 2 squads of space marines. For starters, Tac Marines are one of the more underpowered troop choices in the game. Second of all, you are comparing a situation where you spent (warning: I'm about to estimate, you were quite vague - you said 5 sets of troops and you are at 350 with the Tervigon and Brood as is), say at least 700 points on troops, compared to what sounds like say 200 points of SM - obviously you are going to have a stronger troop force. This is a terrible comparison. Why not compare it point per point value (say a 200 point unit to 200 point unit or something), and to a troop choice that is regarded as useful, as opposed to one that is regardless as overpriced crap. Tell me what you come back with.
Also, AM do spend their points on tank instead of their gribblies. It's the sensible thing to do. Just like Tyranid spends their points on MC's instead of Hormagants. Survivability really is key in such a shooty environment. And alot of the bigger units are just plain better. I'd take Termagants if Tervigons were the same as last dex. It's not that swarms are unusable - just that the swarm options we have just aren't very good
And that begs the question: "Will Skyblight still be worth taking?"
The main strength of it was the objective secured gargoyles. If everything else in your army has that.... Does having the possibility to respawn the gargoyles still make the formation a powerhouse?
I think that would be a definite "yes".
Why is it still good?
1. You can still remain a Battle-forged army and get its bonuses.
2. Gargoyles who can't be contested (except probably by other Bound troops, depending on the FAQ's).
3. Respawning scoring units.
Now that you mention respawning scoring units, battleforged 2x Endless Swarm + Trygon tunnel or 2 might be quite stupid with the new changes. Just a bunch of respawning, scoring, incontestable troops, coming back to whereever you want them on the field, in a meta that I'm sure is going to be gak like 8 riptides or 6 wraithknights
Now that you mention respawning scoring units, battleforged 2x Endless Swarm + Trygon tunnel or 2 might be quite stupid with the new changes. Just a bunch of respawning, scoring, incontestable troops, coming back to whereever you want them on the field, in a meta that I'm sure is going to be gak like 8 riptides or 6 wraithknights
That would be hilariously funny and a big F-U to many of those Unbound lists.
That's why I am all for Battle-forged. Objectives Secured is going to play a huge role in the new edition.
just2fierce wrote: why isn't there any love for stealers? Every article I can find on the new book just leaves them out.....
Because 6th nerfed the heck out of them. 7th might make them better once again, especially if they can consolidate from combat into combat, but we really don't know if that will happen. Overall, stealers lack survivability to shooting in an edition that is mostly shooty. It also doesn't help that many of the armies can ignore what little cover there is.
just2fierce wrote: why isn't there any love for stealers? Every article I can find on the new book just leaves them out.....
Well I don't know why other people don't use them - I only know why I don't use them. For me it is because they are the cost of a Space Marine with a similar statline, except instead of paying out the ass for a 3+ save, you are paying out the ass for 2 points higher of initiative. The bulk of the cost is in that (and the extra attack and 2 points of WS - hooray ~_~ ). This would actually be ok - if they had frags. Instead, you are paying big amounts for something that is so easily countered by any army - you thought Space Marines were bad because AP2/3 is so common? Try being countered by any unit in cover. Yep, anything that genestealers threaten is immediately countered by something available in large amounts to any army. That I6 and 2 attacks? You will be last everytime by default, and you'll be lucky to see half those attacks anyway after eating a round of combat from anything - remember, TAC marines point cost except with 5+ save. Oh and did I mention all their upgrades are just further points wasted on at least half the unit, the front half, who already (vanilla) become 14 ppm fodder when they assault?Oh and that all this is ASSUMING they manage to make it into combat without being torn to shreds (ONCE AGAIN, 14 points per T4 5+ model). Oh and that just in case it would be useful to have them man a quad gun or something, (being that they have no bolters either), they were given BS0, just to make sure they didn't get up to anything actual useful.
That's why I don't run them. Don't know about other people.
I used them in a tournament one time recently. More for the Broodlord to challenge out those STUPID Smash Masters (or whatever you wanna call them) on a Bike.
They didn't get use except in a single game. They either died or were completely ignored.
I think that the rumor that FMC only take a single grounding check at the end of the shooting phase, and only if they receive a wound, is a thematically sensible thing to do. Screw those markerlight grounding fails. The balancing act that doesn't make every FMC army hopelessly OP is that snap-firing is allegedly -2 BS instead of making you BS 1. I do still think this will bring Skyblight out ahead, as all of their troops will have Objective Secured as well as the gargoyles. It does make the gargoyles a little worse but the fact that they re-spawn and can deep strike on the last turn potentially will still make for some awesome late-game shenanigans.
I do think that it will make the Tervigon version a little better than the warrior version just because spawning little groups of Objective Secured Gants will be incredibly difficult to deal with late game along with the gargoyles.
Overall I'm very excited for 7th edition. It seems like a lot of changes they're implementing were long overdue
IMO, Genestealers could be fixed with a good price cut. Price them similarly to Daemonettes -- probably their closest analogy in the game -- and I'd find a way to use them.
gorgon wrote: IMO, Genestealers could be fixed with a good price cut. Price them similarly to Daemonettes -- probably their closest analogy in the game -- and I'd find a way to use them.
Daemonettes are basically stealers that trade S4 and T4 for S3, T3, a 5++ and +3" run. And deep strike. Basically, Stealers should be slightly more expensive than nettes, as in 1 or 2 more points. Honestly I think 11ppm would be perfect for them.
I am hoping that they'll be awesome again. For example, if you can consolidate into another unit, then 20 in a bastion up front would be rock solid.
These new psyker rules are a definite buff for zoans.
Is it just me or the fact that we fire 3 warp lances in a single cast isn't so bad now?
With the new rules of witchfire it's even possible in some cases to triple warplance something (with 4-5 dices only) and then nova with the remaining dices (or just throw curses and blessing around).
Well.. If choosing your powers from the same discipline in your codex allows you to take the Primaris for free (As it apparently does in the BRB) that would mean the Zoanthrope at ML2 may be able to take 3 powers!
Not to mention he grants the hive Tyrant 2 more dice to be able to use his (likely better) powers.
SHUPPET wrote: I haven't seen the new Psyker rules - I know this isn't the thread for it, but what exactly are we talking about?
You know the magic phase in fantasy battle? It's coming to 40k.
In any case, the Tyranids have the capacity to own the psychic phase against most armies thanks to having fairly easily massed Psykers between Zoanthropes, Tyrants, and Tervigons.
Very early days with one game/win under its belt.
The concept was based around Spore Mines being ineffective when looked at as a singular but raining multiples from the Sky.. that could actually be decent.. Add this into Skyblight and that could be fairly solid.
Shame 6 of my Biovores were nuked in the only test game I've played so far first turn.
Won the game by killing all of his troops. Needs testing a plenty.
gorgon wrote: IMO, Genestealers could be fixed with a good price cut. Price them similarly to Daemonettes -- probably their closest analogy in the game -- and I'd find a way to use them.
Daemonettes are basically stealers that trade S4 and T4 for S3, T3, a 5++ and +3" run. And deep strike. Basically, Stealers should be slightly more expensive than nettes, as in 1 or 2 more points. Honestly I think 11ppm would be perfect for them.
I am hoping that they'll be awesome again. For example, if you can consolidate into another unit, then 20 in a bastion up front would be rock solid.
Agreed. Stealers are just slightly better than Daemonettes but not by much. 11ppm is a fair cost for them (maybe 12ppm at most), though I doubt that will ever happen. Otherwise, if they are going to keep them at 14ppm, I think at the very minimum, stealers need either 1) 4+ saves or 2) assault grenades or 3) both.
Spoletta wrote: These new psyker rules are a definite buff for zoans.
Is it just me or the fact that we fire 3 warp lances in a single cast isn't so bad now?
With the new rules of witchfire it's even possible in some cases to triple warplance something (with 4-5 dices only) and then nova with the remaining dices (or just throw curses and blessing around).
The only thing bad about casting 3 warp lances are that you are paying 150-pts for 2 warp charges where you can just as easily pay only 50-pts for 2 warp charges. Also, if they get denied, you lose 3 shots instead of just 1 shot.
Very early days with one game/win under its belt.
The concept was based around Spore Mines being ineffective when looked at as a singular but raining multiples from the Sky.. that could actually be decent.. Add this into Skyblight and that could be fairly solid.
Shame 6 of my Biovores were nuked in the only test game I've played so far first turn.
Won the game by killing all of his troops. Needs testing a plenty.
Hive Crone 155
Harpy Venom Cannon 140
Harpy Venom Cannon 140
3 Biovore 120
3 Biovore 120
3 Biovore 120
An interesting build. Reminds of my 5th Ed. days when I constantly ran 6-9 biovores.
While it can work, IMO it is not the most optimal Tyranid build. Just relying on brute-force firepower alone will not get it done against the better armies. Right now, the best armies rely on force-multiplication units to make them very good.
My opinion as always is to try to fit 1 venomthrope and a bastion into your list. These are actually force-multiplication units that make your army much more survivable and, as a result, much better as well. If that means downgrading 1 unit of warriors to termagants and dropping some biovores, then so be it.
SHUPPET wrote: I haven't seen the new Psyker rules - I know this isn't the thread for it, but what exactly are we talking about?
You generate 1d6+ML level cumulated of your army warp dices. Assign those dices to your casting models and then try casting. When you cast a power you decide how many dices you roll, on a 4+ they generate a warp charge. If you generate enough charges the power is casted. The enemy has the same d6 your rolled + his ML level in DtW dices. When you roll a power he can roll DtW dices, on a 6+ they negate a warp charge (there are many modifiers to improve this roll).
The important thing to notice is that to reliably cast powers you need much more dices than the ones generated by the casting models itself. A WC1 cast goes off with 2 dices at 75% and with 3 at 87%. This should be offset by the additional 1d6 dices you get over your ML level, but it works well as long as you have few psyckers.
The debate whether it was better to triple cast a lance or have 3 separate casts is now clear. With only 4 or 5 dices you are casting 3 WC2 powers which is huge in terms of efficiency.
Another matter is that this will now put into discussion the competitive use of 2 Flyrants if you already have a zoan. You are starting to get too high on ML levels, they will see their psy capabilities capped which was one of the main reasons why Flyrants were taken in the first place. Add to that that anti air will probably become less of a problem if the -2bs on snapshot is true (warrior with prime will hit at 5+, haywire hive guards hitting at 5+ will become viable anti air, warp lances at 5+ also).
That is a mixture of what is known, combined with rumors. How a psyker will test for their powers is unknown.
I find the 4+ to just flat sound wrong... You are talking having to roll 4 to 6 dice to hope you get two warp charges for a power.. hoping that none of those double out on you. 3 warp charge spells 6 to 8 dice..
When you add the fact that these dice are generated in every psyker phase, armies with large pools will be able to dtw on lesser armies with fair ease since they don't risk perils on a dtw.
Then add in stuff about how they will work Sitw... they would have to rewrite the rule because if psyker ldr doesn't get used, its a useless racial and a kick in the bug nuts
gorgon wrote: IMO, Genestealers could be fixed with a good price cut. Price them similarly to Daemonettes -- probably their closest analogy in the game -- and I'd find a way to use them.
Daemonettes are basically stealers that trade S4 and T4 for S3, T3, a 5++ and +3" run. And deep strike. Basically, Stealers should be slightly more expensive than nettes, as in 1 or 2 more points. Honestly I think 11ppm would be perfect for them.
I am hoping that they'll be awesome again. For example, if you can consolidate into another unit, then 20 in a bastion up front would be rock solid.
Agreed. Stealers are just slightly better than Daemonettes but not by much. 11ppm is a fair cost for them (maybe 12ppm at most), though I doubt that will ever happen. Otherwise, if they are going to keep them at 14ppm, I think at the very minimum, stealers need either 1) 4+ saves or 2) assault grenades or 3) both.
Spoletta wrote: These new psyker rules are a definite buff for zoans.
Is it just me or the fact that we fire 3 warp lances in a single cast isn't so bad now?
With the new rules of witchfire it's even possible in some cases to triple warplance something (with 4-5 dices only) and then nova with the remaining dices (or just throw curses and blessing around).
The only thing bad about casting 3 warp lances are that you are paying 150-pts for 2 warp charges where you can just as easily pay only 50-pts for 2 warp charges. Also, if they get denied, you lose 3 shots instead of just 1 shot.
Very early days with one game/win under its belt.
The concept was based around Spore Mines being ineffective when looked at as a singular but raining multiples from the Sky.. that could actually be decent.. Add this into Skyblight and that could be fairly solid.
Shame 6 of my Biovores were nuked in the only test game I've played so far first turn.
Won the game by killing all of his troops. Needs testing a plenty.
Hive Crone 155
Harpy Venom Cannon 140
Harpy Venom Cannon 140
3 Biovore 120
3 Biovore 120
3 Biovore 120
An interesting build. Reminds of my 5th Ed. days when I constantly ran 6-9 biovores.
While it can work, IMO it is not the most optimal Tyranid build. Just relying on brute-force firepower alone will not get it done against the better armies. Right now, the best armies rely on force-multiplication units to make them very good.
My opinion as always is to try to fit 1 venomthrope and a bastion into your list. These are actually force-multiplication units that make your army much more survivable and, as a result, much better as well. If that means downgrading 1 unit of warriors to termagants and dropping some biovores, then so be it.
I would be doing a happy dance if Stealers got Flesh Hooks, even if the price went up (a little ) That would make them back into a "good" use of points. (for me anyway )
I like the list also, but could it be built as Two Formations? Skyblight+ Living Artillery might be quite a "thing" (Change 9 Biovores into 3 Biovors, Warrior with Cannon, and an Exocrene)
I know this isn't a rumors thread, but there are some really good ones posted right now that I think are more likely than not valid since we're so close to the release.
1) Vector strikes are now AP 2
2) All armies are now battle brothers with themselves
3) Now even having interceptor + sky fire doesn't allow you to hit ground targets regularly. Any unit with sky fire will snap fire against ground targets (except FMCs who allegedly get to just choose whether they use sky fire or not each phase)
Lastly, it's not a rumor, but I think Zoans will be making a big comeback with how it seems that the psychic phase will work. I think that having the most dice in the pool plus a decent net of Shadow in the Warp (whatever that will wind up meaning) is something that Nids will be able to abuse with great regularity, especially with the rumor that if a Psyker takes all their powers from a single discipline then they automatically ALSO get the primaris for that discipline. Meaning that synapse will now always be able to be extended to 18" by any synapse creature. Well except for warriors. Overall I have a really good feeling about the psychic choir making a comeback. Who needs biomancy anyways?
For the record, I am holding out hope for an updated FAQ along with the new edition that gives us biomancy back. I'm a dreamer.
luke1705 wrote: I know this isn't a rumors thread, but there are some really good ones posted right now that I think are more likely than not valid since we're so close to the release.
3) Now even having interceptor + sky fire doesn't allow you to hit ground targets regularly. Any unit with sky fire will snap fire against ground targets (except FMCs who allegedly get to just choose whether they use sky fire or not each phase)
Tau's Velocity Trackers also allow the units to choose whether or not they want to use "Skyfire".
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm more excited about D-weapons allowing cover saves on anything but a 6. Finally, a nerf that keeps a Warhound or Renevant from auto nuking our ground troops. I might actually start playing Apocalypse again.
luke1705 wrote: I know this isn't a rumors thread, but there are some really good ones posted right now that I think are more likely than not valid since we're so close to the release.
3) Now even having interceptor + sky fire doesn't allow you to hit ground targets regularly. Any unit with sky fire will snap fire against ground targets (except FMCs who allegedly get to just choose whether they use sky fire or not each phase)
Tau's Velocity Trackers also allow the units to choose whether or not they want to use "Skyfire".
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm more excited about D-weapons allowing cover saves on anything but a 6. Finally, a nerf that keeps a Warhound or Renevant from auto nuking our ground troops. I might actually start playing Apocalypse again.
I think this actually might be very humorous, as regular units will be able to stand toe-to-toe with strength D so long as they have good cover or a good invuln most of the time. To me, it does seem like they should change it back to gargantuan creatures/super heavy walkers not being locked in combat by those tiny gribblies if they're going to nerf the D weapons like that (although I also agree that the proposed changes are very much a good thing)
Well if Tyanids can now ally with themselves, a 1850 Battle Forged list could have a Skyblight formation plus 3 additional Dakka Flyrants, 3-10 man gaunts, a bastion, a Zoe, a Venomthrope, and still have 25 points to spare. Definitely something I would like to try out.
wyomingfox wrote: Well if Tyanids can now ally with themselves, a 1850 Battle Forged list could have a Skyblight formation plus 3 additional Dakka Flyrants, 3-10 man gaunts, a bastion, a Zoe, a Venomthrope, and still have 25 points to spare. Definitely something I would like to try out.
That is interesting. I do wonder though at what point tyrants' benefits are outweighed by their own points cost. I don't know that I would take more than 3, as that's already almost 700 points, with 4 clocking in at over 900. When half your army is 4 models, it seems like an easy way to get crushed if those models can be dealt with. I think it would be better to have more of your FMCs be other creatures so that you get similar durability for less points (although who knows that psychic choir might be something fierce, especially depending on how Shadow in the Warp changes). For example, I think I would trim it down to 3 flyrants, turn the gaunts into 2 bare bones warrior squads and add in an additional crone and 2 solo Zoans (again, really thinking Shadow will be pretty sweet for Nids to achieve some Psyker dominance). There's even room for the venom in the bastion (although putting a zoanthrope in there might be nice too)
I would be doing a happy dance if Stealers got Flesh Hooks, even if the price went up (a little ) That would make them back into a "good" use of points. (for me anyway )
Move through cover should really ignore this terrain troubles.
wyomingfox wrote: Well if Tyanids can now ally with themselves, a 1850 Battle Forged list could have a Skyblight formation plus 3 additional Dakka Flyrants, 3-10 man gaunts, a bastion, a Zoe, a Venomthrope, and still have 25 points to spare. Definitely something I would like to try out.
That is interesting. I do wonder though at what point tyrants' benefits are outweighed by their own points cost. I don't know that I would take more than 3, as that's already almost 700 points, with 4 clocking in at over 900. When half your army is 4 models, it seems like an easy way to get crushed if those models can be dealt with. I think it would be better to have more of your FMCs be other creatures so that you get similar durability for less points (although who knows that psychic choir might be something fierce, especially depending on how Shadow in the Warp changes). For example, I think I would trim it down to 3 flyrants, turn the gaunts into 2 bare bones warrior squads and add in an additional crone and 2 solo Zoans (again, really thinking Shadow will be pretty sweet for Nids to achieve some Psyker dominance). There's even room for the venom in the bastion (although putting a zoanthrope in there might be nice too)
I agree, Flyrants are only taken by me because they are the best source of synapse we have, I think even with unbound I wouldn't sensibly do more than 3. They really are a pricey unit. 60 points a wound.
Even with only -2 to BS for Snap Firing, with grounding tests being a much smaller threat I'd say Flyrants will be more durable than they are currently.
PrinceRaven wrote: Even with only -2 to BS for Snap Firing, with grounding tests being a much smaller threat I'd say Flyrants will be more durable than they are currently.
I'm still going to be running maximum Skyblight swarm and living artillery for my comp lists.
Random note of interest in the WD Battle Report between 'nids and Orks. Even the GW staff forgets that Trevigons are not characters now. Also probably means there is no intention of FAQ them to be characters in 7e, so no Trevi Warlords.
barnowl wrote: Random note of interest in the WD Battle Report between 'nids and Orks. Even the GW staff forgets that Trevigons are not characters now. Also probably means there is no intention of FAQ them to be characters in 7e, so no Trevi Warlords.
For those of us without the WD - what do you mean? Did they admit they forgot or... ?
barnowl wrote: Random note of interest in the WD Battle Report between 'nids and Orks. Even the GW staff forgets that Trevigons are not characters now. Also probably means there is no intention of FAQ them to be characters in 7e, so no Trevi Warlords.
barnowl wrote: Random note of interest in the WD Battle Report between 'nids and Orks. Even the GW staff forgets that Trevigons are not characters now. Also probably means there is no intention of FAQ them to be characters in 7e, so no Trevi Warlords.
Did they challenge it?
It's not even that dramatic. The ork player forgot and wanted to challenge, but the nid player informed him Tervigons aren't characters.
barnowl wrote: Random note of interest in the WD Battle Report between 'nids and Orks. Even the GW staff forgets that Trevigons are not characters now. Also probably means there is no intention of FAQ them to be characters in 7e, so no Trevi Warlords.
Did they challenge it?
It's not even that dramatic. The ork player forget and wanted to challenge, but the nid player informed him Tervigons aren't characters.
Pretty much this. It only caught my eye as it would indicate there is no intention to make them characters in the foreseeable future.
Perhaps it was a deliberate decision to stop 5 Tervigon.list, or to let you have a Synapse HQ and Old One Eye in the same list, or maybe it was completely arbitrary, who knows?
PrinceRaven wrote: Perhaps it was a deliberate decision to stop 5 Tervigon.list, or to let you have a Synapse HQ and Old One Eye in the same list, or maybe it was completely arbitrary, who knows?
PrinceRaven wrote: Perhaps it was a deliberate decision to stop 5 Tervigon.list, or to let you have a Synapse HQ and Old One Eye in the same list, or maybe it was completely arbitrary, who knows?
GW isn't smart enough to make deliberate balance decisions.
So has anyone else been following the new formations in the Warzone: Valedor book? Someone on thetyranidhive has posted them up and some of them are really interesting.
There's a 3+ Crone formation, and each Crone that Vector Strikes the same target after the first increases its Vector Strike Strength by one more than the previous, so S8 -> S9 -> S10 ->S10 etc).
There's also a Tyrant/Guard/Zoanthrope brood (Shadow Incarnate) with a really (really) beastly nova power.
Xyptc wrote: So has anyone else been following the new formations in the Warzone: Valedor book? Someone on thetyranidhive has posted them up and some of them are really interesting.
There's a 3+ Crone formation, and each Crone that Vector Strikes the same target after the first increases its Vector Strike Strength by one more than the previous, so S8 -> S9 -> S10 ->S10 etc).
There's also a Tyrant/Guard/Zoanthrope brood (Shadow Incarnate) with a really (really) beastly nova power.
I purchasd the book yesterday, my favourite is the one that allows Gargoyles to assualt flyers!
And the one that allows Gaunts to move 60" in a turn!
Xyptc wrote: So has anyone else been following the new formations in the Warzone: Valedor book? Someone on thetyranidhive has posted them up and some of them are really interesting.
There's a 3+ Crone formation, and each Crone that Vector Strikes the same target after the first increases its Vector Strike Strength by one more than the previous, so S8 -> S9 -> S10 ->S10 etc).
There's also a Tyrant/Guard/Zoanthrope brood (Shadow Incarnate) with a really (really) beastly nova power.
Are these official formations, or are they apocalypse only?
Xyptc wrote: So has anyone else been following the new formations in the Warzone: Valedor book? Someone on thetyranidhive has posted them up and some of them are really interesting.
There's a 3+ Crone formation, and each Crone that Vector Strikes the same target after the first increases its Vector Strike Strength by one more than the previous, so S8 -> S9 -> S10 ->S10 etc).
There's also a Tyrant/Guard/Zoanthrope brood (Shadow Incarnate) with a really (really) beastly nova power.
Are these official formations, or are they apocalypse only?
Xyptc wrote: So has anyone else been following the new formations in the Warzone: Valedor book? Someone on thetyranidhive has posted them up and some of them are really interesting.
There's a 3+ Crone formation, and each Crone that Vector Strikes the same target after the first increases its Vector Strike Strength by one more than the previous, so S8 -> S9 -> S10 ->S10 etc).
There's also a Tyrant/Guard/Zoanthrope brood (Shadow Incarnate) with a really (really) beastly nova power.
Are these official formations, or are they apocalypse only?
They are Apocalypse only sadly. Even though most seem more appropriate for normal games than the Skyblight!
Edit: The exact wording, page 3:
This section is followed by special rules, strategic Assets, scenarios and Apocalypse Formations, all of which are based on the history and background for that military campaign. You can use all of these things when you fight an Apocalyspe game set in that warzone...
The only exception to this are the new Apocalypse Formations that you will find in each warzone. They can be used for battles set in the warzone, but can also be used in Apocalypse battles set elsewhere without adjustment.
So. It implies that the various special rules (there's a chart to represent a world being fed upon) and Strategic Assets are only for themed Apocalypse games. Then, the formations can either be used in battles set in the warzone, or in any Apocalypse game. Basically, these formations are, according to GW, fine for normal battles. Certainly none of them are as broken and stupid as the other stuff they've put out, but almost all are pretty dang good. So yeah, don't expect to bring these to a normal game, especially a tournament. I wish though! There's one that has three Tervigons, and when spawning you choose what weapon they have! Plus, you roll the 3d6 for each Tervigon, then choose one of the results for the whole unit. So basically, you'd have to double out with all three rolls to not be able to spawn. It's pretty snazzy!
Xyptc wrote: So has anyone else been following the new formations in the Warzone: Valedor book? Someone on thetyranidhive has posted them up and some of them are really interesting.
There's a 3+ Crone formation, and each Crone that Vector Strikes the same target after the first increases its Vector Strike Strength by one more than the previous, so S8 -> S9 -> S10 ->S10 etc).
There's also a Tyrant/Guard/Zoanthrope brood (Shadow Incarnate) with a really (really) beastly nova power.
Are these official formations, or are they apocalypse only?
They are Apocalypse only sadly. Even though most seem more appropriate for normal games than the Skyblight!
Shame. I was hoping for more usable formations. We got what, 3 good ones out of 15? In fairness, however, I am having a grand old time with skyblight. It's how I've always wanted to play Nids (or any army for that matter) and the fact that it's actually competitive is just icing on the cake.
bodazoka wrote: Does anyone think that new Gargoyle rule in this book that allows them to assault flyers will make it's way into the rule book?
The objective secured rule was give to them first and there was rumors around that some orks may be able to do this in there new codex?
Probably not. Objective secured was given to them in the formation because usually only troops get it, and they're the only fast attack that gets it. They wouldn't give the Gargoyles a special rule in a formation if they were going to get it normally a week later.
bodazoka wrote: Does anyone think that new Gargoyle rule in this book that allows them to assault flyers will make it's way into the rule book?
The objective secured rule was give to them first and there was rumors around that some orks may be able to do this in there new codex?
Probably not. Objective secured was given to them in the formation because usually only troops get it, and they're the only fast attack that gets it. They wouldn't give the Gargoyles a special rule in a formation if they were going to get it normally a week later.
Whilst I'm sure some would cry that it's stupid I think it would be a pretty cool rule "Jet pack infantry and Jet pack MC's can assault flyers"
I don't think it would help that much vs mechanical flyers; even with adrenal glands, they can't pierce the armor on most. Getting to tie up FMC while they are still in air would be useful though.
Now, if they had some kind of suicide rule to represent them flying into the turbines of flyers to make them crash, that would be fun as all hell
I suddenly remembered my Charlemagne. Let my army be the rocks and the trees, and the birds in the sky.
Now, if they had some kind of suicide rule to represent them flying into the turbines of flyers to make them crash, that would be fun as all hell
This! Been thinking about it for a while. Something like sacrifice a gargoyle, get one haywire attack so you could glance them to death by stuffing the turbines with bodies or just splatting enough on the window until the pilot can't see and crash.
Now, if they had some kind of suicide rule to represent them flying into the turbines of flyers to make them crash, that would be fun as all hell
This! Been thinking about it for a while. Something like sacrifice a gargoyle, get one haywire attack so you could glance them to death by stuffing the turbines with bodies or just splatting enough on the window until the pilot can't see and crash.
One of the Valedor warzone formations does this... kind of. Gargoyles may assault flyers. Instead of attacking, units in base contact may roll a dice. On a 1-3, the gargoyle dies. On a 4-5, nothing. On a 6, the flyer takes a glance.
bodazoka wrote: What about just dangerous terrain tests with no saves of any kind for each model assaulting?
Also hitting the flyer on a 6 and flyer's not being able to be tied up?
With a 6+, dangerous terrain is already essentially no saves for Gargoyles! And no vehicle can be tied up, that's nothing new. But it only takes 18 gargoyles to kill a flyer on average. If it already has lost a hullpoint, all the easier!
Now, if they had some kind of suicide rule to represent them flying into the turbines of flyers to make them crash, that would be fun as all hell
This! Been thinking about it for a while. Something like sacrifice a gargoyle, get one haywire attack so you could glance them to death by stuffing the turbines with bodies or just splatting enough on the window until the pilot can't see and crash.
One of the Valedor warzone formations does this... kind of. Gargoyles may assault flyers. Instead of attacking, units in base contact may roll a dice. On a 1-3, the gargoyle dies. On a 4-5, nothing. On a 6, the flyer takes a glance.
I suspect that the Orks are going to get a similar rule for their Stormboys to replicate the Valkyrie ride segment in Space marine.
Of course, Gargoyles are much more expendable than Stormboyz.
Anyway, as lame as the codex is, the Formations have been very good to us so far. Even if they're not the most competetive of options they give much needed flavor.
Mind putting these formations up on 1d4chan's Tyranid tactica?
And these formations seem like you'd have an easier time putting them into regular games than Living Tide (a minimum cost of nearly 3000 points and a bare minimum of 240+ models...yeaaahhh).
Question. Does a single brood of 3 Zoanthropes count as a single ML2 unit (+2 dice) or 3 x ML2 units (+6 dice). If the latter, doesn't this mean that not only would they generate enough dice to cast their own attack, but also be able to contribute dice to boost other attacks?
Ifurita wrote: Question. Does a single brood of 3 Zoanthropes count as a single ML2 unit (+2 dice) or 3 x ML2 units (+6 dice). If the latter, doesn't this mean that not only would they generate enough dice to cast their own attack, but also be able to contribute dice to boost other attacks?
I'd hope it's the latter but knowing GW's history with our army it's probably going to be the former.
Now, if they had some kind of suicide rule to represent them flying into the turbines of flyers to make them crash, that would be fun as all hell
This! Been thinking about it for a while. Something like sacrifice a gargoyle, get one haywire attack so you could glance them to death by stuffing the turbines with bodies or just splatting enough on the window until the pilot can't see and crash.
One of the Valedor warzone formations does this... kind of. Gargoyles may assault flyers. Instead of attacking, units in base contact may roll a dice. On a 1-3, the gargoyle dies. On a 4-5, nothing. On a 6, the flyer takes a glance.
Nice, sounds very fun to use. Saddly it's only for apoc and you need an harridan i think?
Ifurita wrote: Question. Does a single brood of 3 Zoanthropes count as a single ML2 unit (+2 dice) or 3 x ML2 units (+6 dice). If the latter, doesn't this mean that not only would they generate enough dice to cast their own attack, but also be able to contribute dice to boost other attacks?
1 ML2 Psyker...as they are now a brotherhood.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wyomingfox wrote: Zoanthropes have the psychic brotherhood rule and thus count as a single ML2 unit.
Cronecoven
3+ Crones, gives you +1 Strength Vector strike for every one after the first.
Eater swarm
3 + Haruspexes, 3+ Pyrovores (lol), 5+ Ripper Broods, any failed IB tests automatically give the devour result, and they affect the Ld of enemy characters that have line of sight.
Eye of the Hive
3+ Warrior Broods (5 Warriors per brood minimum). All Tyranid units within 18" of is unit attack at their initiative even if they were dead before striking. At the beginning of the game roll a D3, any unit that enters play after the corresponding turn to the roll has preferred enemy against a codex of your choosing.
Harpy Skyhaunters
3+ Harpies
3+ Spore Mine Clusters
Any harpy firing at a flyer or (super heavy flyer) within 12" of a spore mine from this formation gains Tank Hunter. Also Harpies can choose to fire Skyhaunters shards instead of their HVC or Strangle theon cannon. Which is a 36" twin linked auto cannon.
Kraken Tendril
3+ Gant or Gaunt broods (20+ models)
1+ Tyranid .warrior brood
0+ Gargoyle Brood
Once per game all units in the tendril may move up to 60" in their movement phase, they can't do this if they have just arrived from reserve. And they can't finish within 12" of an enemy. The unit can shoot afterwards but can't assualt.
Mind putting these formations up on 1d4chan's Tyranid tactica?
And these formations seem like you'd have an easier time putting them into regular games than Living Tide (a minimum cost of nearly 3000 points and a bare minimum of 240+ models...yeaaahhh).
I put up my review of the formation on my blog. It covers all ten of the Tyranid formations included (yes, ten!) If you play Nids in Apocalypse, I would highly recommend it! Obviously it is just fluff for a standard gamer.
Mind putting these formations up on 1d4chan's Tyranid tactica?
And these formations seem like you'd have an easier time putting them into regular games than Living Tide (a minimum cost of nearly 3000 points and a bare minimum of 240+ models...yeaaahhh).
I put up my review of the formation on my blog. It covers all ten of the Tyranid formations included (yes, ten!) If you play Nids in Apocalypse, I would highly recommend it! Obviously it is just fluff for a standard gamer.
If shadow incarnate is a psychic choir, they pool their Warp Charge points together before casting powers - that's how a standard ML2 hive tyrant could cast a WC3 power.
Of course in 5 days psychic abilities change altogether so there's that...
What makes me laugh is the Valedor book released this weekend just gone gives rules for Capillary towers, which is basically our old shadow in the warp rule. Which will be invalidated this weekend!
Also there is rules for spore chimneys and digestion pools.
Eldercaveman wrote: What makes me laugh is the Valedor book released this weekend just gone gives rules for Capillary towers, which is basically our old shadow in the warp rule. Which will be invalidated this weekend!
Also there is rules for spore chimneys and digestion pools.
Very much worth reading if you like the Tyranids or Eldar and as a book with absolutely zero human presence I'm quite surprised as to it's quality as a work of Xeno-fiction.
Here's to hoping for a Warzone: Octarius set in the near future (perhaps shortly after the Ork codex is released?)
tetrisphreak wrote: If shadow incarnate is a psychic choir, they pool their Warp Charge points together before casting powers - that's how a standard ML2 hive tyrant could cast a WC3 power.
Of course in 5 days psychic abilities change altogether so there's that...
Eldercaveman wrote: What makes me laugh is the Valedor book released this weekend just gone gives rules for Capillary towers, which is basically our old shadow in the warp rule. Which will be invalidated this weekend!
Also there is rules for spore chimneys and digestion pools.
... rules without models? GW does that?
Apparently so!
And I'm not even expecting a re release of the models unless Citadel does them in plastic, because I asked about them at FW open day and they have been dropped from the IA4 update, because they didn't sell well enough and there wasn't enough interest in them.
tetrisphreak wrote: If shadow incarnate is a psychic choir, they pool their Warp Charge points together before casting powers - that's how a standard ML2 hive tyrant could cast a WC3 power.
Of course in 5 days psychic abilities change altogether so there's that...
Where are the rules for a psychic choir?
In the main Apoc book. You basically just pool up warp charge, get a bonus power from the formation and there's a much harsher table to roll on if someone rolls Perils.
As for that Warp Charge 3 power - psychic choirs don't combine mastery levels, and the power still needs to be cast through one model. It's yet another indicator that the new psychic rules will let models cast powers higher than their mastery level.
tetrisphreak wrote: If shadow incarnate is a psychic choir, they pool their Warp Charge points together before casting powers - that's how a standard ML2 hive tyrant could cast a WC3 power.
Of course in 5 days psychic abilities change altogether so there's that...
Where are the rules for a psychic choir?
In the main Apoc book. You basically just pool up warp charge, get a bonus power from the formation and there's a much harsher table to roll on if someone rolls Perils.
As for that Warp Charge 3 power - psychic choirs don't combine mastery levels, and the power still needs to be cast through one model. It's yet another indicator that the new psychic rules will let models cast powers higher than their mastery level.
Which is why I don't get why they included the Ld test in 3d6 for the capillary towers, if Ld has nothing to do with psychic powers anymore!
Also I'm really intrigued to see how Shadows works, WD hints at it being a scary thing!
We're endeavoring to have one of the first 7th Ed. battle reports up once the new rules come out and I'm definitely bringing him to face off against the wife's new pair of Wraithknights. I'm pretty sure Im taking the S5 AP3 Hellstorm template, the extra death dealing is more important to me than armored transport.
We're endeavoring to have one of the first 7th Ed. battle reports up once the new rules come out and I'm definitely bringing him to face off against the wife's new pair of Wraithknights. I'm pretty sure Im taking the S5 AP3 Hellstorm template, the extra death dealing is more important to me than armored transport.
That's awesome. I am actually torn between the transport capacity (allowing a venomthrope to shroud it for a likely 3+ cover, thus making up for it's crappy invuln) or the acid blood. Not that much was going to tarpit or threaten it in close combat before, but now....NOTHING will. Even the grey knights would all likely die if they managed to kill it.
And that is why we play 40k. Because of awesome Godzilla breathing
So it appears that we in fact will be able to ally with ourselves (finally!). This brings up an interesting debate. Do you guys think that a stronger list can be built out of Skyblight or out of a regular FOC now that troops (allegedly) have the same Objective: secured rule that the gargoyles do? Admittedly the gargoyles do respawn on a 4+ but we don't have to take 2 (or potentially any) harpies theoretically.
Also, Tyranids can ally with anyone now, but with drawbacks. Is there anyone really worth allying with Tyranids though? Whoever a player allies in takes away points for SkyBlight or other FMCs.
So a single Zoanthrope now definitely get's free Dominion as well as 1 x roll on the psychic chart as well as Warp Blast stock.
Back in 6th I would roll and if I didn't get Onslaught or Catalyst I would divert back to the Primaris. Now I will just keep the power I roll instead.. not a big change all though I get a little more flexibility.
The adding of 2 x dice to the pool is a big deal though as my Zoanthrope always felt useless but now he is a better force multiplier.
You are still inflicting only 1 wound, and they all have an invul save.
I think the biggest problem will become vehicles. Only 1 Vs and only 1 smash kinda hurts there.
Spoletta wrote: You are still inflicting only 1 wound, and they all have an invul save.
I think the biggest problem will become vehicles. Only 1 Vs and only 1 smash kinda hurts there.
Is smash just a single attack and not halving attacks now?
In any case, Tentaclids are brutal against vehicles.
- Max 1 grounding check a turn and only on a wound
- Ap 2 ignore cover Vector strike
- Only 1 Vector strike at turn, except against other flyers.
With these rules, how do you foresee the future of the FMC spam?
Termies and Riptides are now FMC fodder.
Hive crones should eat Riptides for breakfast.
You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.
- Max 1 grounding check a turn and only on a wound
- Ap 2 ignore cover Vector strike
- Only 1 Vector strike at turn, except against other flyers.
With these rules, how do you foresee the future of the FMC spam?
Termies and Riptides are now FMC fodder.
Hive crones should eat Riptides for breakfast.
You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.
Right I had a hardcore derp right there.
Let me put on my dunce hat.
In any case, my unbound lists for no-homebrew games look like they're going to be as many skyblight swarms as I can take to fit in super-scoring gargoyles, then using the spare points for Crones, Harpies, and Flyrants.
Maybe a harridan if I can justify that many points in one basket.
- Max 1 grounding check a turn and only on a wound
- Ap 2 ignore cover Vector strike
- Only 1 Vector strike at turn, except against other flyers.
With these rules, how do you foresee the future of the FMC spam?
Termies and Riptides are now FMC fodder.
Hive crones should eat Riptides for breakfast.
You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.
Right I had a hardcore derp right there.
Let me put on my dunce hat.
In any case, my unbound lists for no-homebrew games look like they're going to be as many skyblight swarms as I can take to fit in super-scoring gargoyles, then using the spare points for Crones, Harpies, and Flyrants.
Maybe a harridan if I can justify that many points in one basket.
Nothing touches the ground if it doesn't have to.
Where have these Vector strike changes come from,last I read it was changed to D6 hits, but allows armour saves?
You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.
Now hold on... A sky fire riptide that overcharges successfully gets 12 shots yes? 6 hit, 4 wounds, assuming the crone has cover that goes down to just under 3 wounds, add in the 1/3 chance of grounding and it averages about 3. That's a living, angry crone. And if it does't nova charge the gun, your other crone will vector strike it to heck with only a 5++.
Ugh. I really hope that this new edition is not going to shoehorn BattleBugs into copycat army lists. I get tired of seeing ANY codex reduced to "play one of 1-2 list types or lose."
I know that, especially in the tourney and ultra-competitive set, 'the cream rises to the top.' That is the nature of the beast! But to have codexes where 1-2 lists are considered 'A' lists and anything else you can make is a D or worse is just wasteful.
I can't imagine how hard it is to balance something like 40K. But sometimes it seems that GW isn't even trying that hard...
You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges. If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.
Now hold on... A sky fire riptide that overcharges successfully gets 12 shots yes? 6 hit, 4 wounds, assuming the crone has cover that goes down to just under 3 wounds, add in the 1/3 chance of grounding and it averages about 3. That's a living, angry crone. And if it does't nova charge the gun, your other crone will vector strike it to heck with only a 5++.
Because Riptides only ever fire the HBC - never the secondary guns. Even the base TLSMS adds another 1-2 wounds (which means it's a dead Crone btw)
And "vector strike to heck" meaning a single wound minus the invul? Oh, poor Riptide...
KillerWabbit wrote: Ugh. I really hope that this new edition is not going to shoehorn BattleBugs into copycat army lists. I get tired of seeing ANY codex reduced to "play one of 1-2 list types or lose."
The new smash rules means that any TMC that isn't a Carnifex is boned in assault with a melee walker. A contemptor furioso dread with blood talons can conceivably tear through an entire Tyranid army without any real risk to itself once it can get into assault should the Tyranid army not have a Carnifex.
KillerWabbit wrote: Ugh. I really hope that this new edition is not going to shoehorn BattleBugs into copycat army lists. I get tired of seeing ANY codex reduced to "play one of 1-2 list types or lose."
The new smash rules means that any TMC that isn't a Carnifex is boned in assault with a melee walker. A contemptor furioso dread with blood talons can conceivably tear through an entire Tyranid army without any real risk to itself once it can get into assault should the Tyranid army not have a Carnifex.
Makes you wonder why they don't just give MCs the old +d6 vs vehicles rule again. I guess they wanted Smash to be a way any MC COULD hurt a vehicle, but not where a MC could shred most of them without a care in the world? Especially since it primarily hurts only Tyranid players; most other lists with MCs either have dedicated shooters or S8+ models.
KillerWabbit wrote: Ugh. I really hope that this new edition is not going to shoehorn BattleBugs into copycat army lists. I get tired of seeing ANY codex reduced to "play one of 1-2 list types or lose."
The new smash rules means that any TMC that isn't a Carnifex is boned in assault with a melee walker. A contemptor furioso dread with blood talons can conceivably tear through an entire Tyranid army without any real risk to itself once it can get into assault should the Tyranid army not have a Carnifex.
Makes you wonder why they don't just give MCs the old +d6 vs vehicles rule again. I guess they wanted Smash to be a way any MC COULD hurt a vehicle, but not where a MC could shred most of them without a care in the world? Especially since it primarily hurts only Tyranid players; most other lists with MCs either have dedicated shooters or S8+ models.
Oh well!
The new rule does mean that a Khornate daemon list is now completely and utterly boned against mech lists. Their one source of AV: a smashing bloodthirster, is now crap at the task. I suppose there's also soul grinders but they're not going to do them much good against a dread spam list.
Looks like Khorne better bite the pillow when Furioso dreads come knocking.
You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.
Now hold on... A sky fire riptide that overcharges successfully gets 12 shots yes? 6 hit, 4 wounds, assuming the crone has cover that goes down to just under 3 wounds, add in the 1/3 chance of grounding and it averages about 3. That's a living, angry crone. And if it does't nova charge the gun, your other crone will vector strike it to heck with only a 5++.
Because Riptides only ever fire the HBC - never the secondary guns.
Even the base TLSMS adds another 1-2 wounds (which means it's a dead Crone btw)
And "vector strike to heck" meaning a single wound minus the invul? Oh, poor Riptide...
Ok throw in a SMS. 4 TL Str5 AP 5 shots right?
3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.75 failed right? So now that crone has take ~3.75. Still alive. And I'm assuming Vector Strike is still a d3+1... So average 3 hits on a Riptide, and after the 5++ we're talking 1 and 2/3 wounds caused. Nothing broken, but with a few Crones that starts to hurt. I'm not saying that Riptides are suddenly bad, they're still pretty good. I'm just saying that we may have a chance of killing them now instead of ignoring them and going for troops.
Can anyone link directly to confirmation of the new Vector Strike rules? And the new allies rules for that matter. I can see the wisdom of talking about things that have been posted up directly, but it is a week too early to get too worked up about things that could just be troll-rumours.
You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.
Now hold on... A sky fire riptide that overcharges successfully gets 12 shots yes? 6 hit, 4 wounds, assuming the crone has cover that goes down to just under 3 wounds, add in the 1/3 chance of grounding and it averages about 3. That's a living, angry crone. And if it does't nova charge the gun, your other crone will vector strike it to heck with only a 5++.
Because Riptides only ever fire the HBC - never the secondary guns.
Even the base TLSMS adds another 1-2 wounds (which means it's a dead Crone btw)
And "vector strike to heck" meaning a single wound minus the invul? Oh, poor Riptide...
Ok throw in a SMS. 4 TL Str5 AP 5 shots right?
3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.75 failed right? So now that crone has take ~3.75. Still alive. And I'm assuming Vector Strike is still a d3+1... So average 3 hits on a Riptide, and after the 5++ we're talking 1 and 2/3 wounds caused. Nothing broken, but with a few Crones that starts to hurt. I'm not saying that Riptides are suddenly bad, they're still pretty good. I'm just saying that we may have a chance of killing them now instead of ignoring them and going for troops.
Poor assumption when it's rumored to only be 1 against non-Flyers.
Multiple sources are posting stuff now, and things are lining up. All of this is looking very likely:
No first turn charging at all.
Charge through cover is -2" unless move through cover or beast, but you still attack at I1 without assault grenades.
You need 7+ on the damage table to kill vehicles in one shot.
Melee attacks against vehicles remove 1hp / glance and 2hp / pen.
Smash is only one attack, otherwise same as now.
Vector strike is single hit or D3 against a flyer, at AP2
A grounding test is taken at the end of the phase if the FMC takes one or more wounds
You can ally using Come the Apocalypse now. It uses the same rules as Desperate Allies, but the units cannot deploy within 12"
The only ranged Tyranid AP1/2 weapon that can pen heavy armour is Warp Lance - if you don't have it you need lots of glances, Haywire or melee for AV13/14. Heavy Venom Cannons and Rupture Cannons(!) can only wear vehicles down, not kill them.
They're effectively improving the new Haruspex kit by making every other MC (except Fexes) worse in melee. FMC spam will still be viable, especially Skyblight. Ground-based Nids are actually looking worse off unless there's something huge we haven't seen yet.
On the bright side, we can take Genestealer Cults with a bunch of IG tanks as our ranged anti-armour*.
See the rumors that I had heard were that FMC would still retain their d3+1 hits on vector strikes and only actual flyers would have 1 hit for vector strikes (suck it heldrake!) has this changed?
PrinceRaven wrote: Unfortunately there are other rules that prevent armies from allying with themselves.
But not from taking multiple detachments regardless of points.
I keep seeing this MENTIONED but never PROVEN.
Do we have certin confirmation on that yet? Because, man, does it open up a TON of Tyranid possibilities.
From the Games Workshop Blog:
First paragraph, upper left hand corner.
Beautiful.
So, we can take multiple Flyrants and formations, essentially allying with ourselves. Considering our troops are cheap and cheerful it opens the window for multiple flyrants.
And considering that Psyker spam may become a thing now....
Such a shame we still can't take basic rulebook disciplines. I seriously hope the Shadow does something significant to help up with DtW
So, we can take multiple Flyrants and formations, essentially allying with ourselves. Considering our troops are cheap and cheerful it opens the window for multiple flyrants.
And considering that Psyker spam may become a thing now....
Such a shame we still can't take basic rulebook disciplines. I seriously hope the Shadow does something significant to help up with DtW
This is certainly a reason why the Tyranid Prime went up in cost. If they were, say, 75 pts each, which is about the right cost, then you'd have 155 pt "Detachment Tax" fees, letting us grab 2-3 detatchments worth of stuff. With, you know, 6-9 ELite slots, I know I could be fielding Pyrovores without guilt, since Zoanthropes and Venomthropes are gonna have elbow room.
With 18 Troops slots, I wouldn't even feel bad burning some on Ripper Swarms, which might be scoring units again. Scary!
1. If swarms score, rippers just became better than gants. One less wound, but stealth, fearless by themselves and near impossible to see. In Skyblight at least, they're excellent.
2. Flyrants cost 240 points now, because you have to put Haywire on everything. Seriously, even Hive Guard make haywire look attractive. Crones, Flyrants, Hive guard. We need so much haywire right now.
Did anyone rely on smash to pop vehicles? I rarely used that attack or wanted to use that attack to do that. I would always glance it to death or fly around the back/sides and get at it that way.
Also does smash still get the benefits of modifiers like charging? so a 4 or 3 attack model may only then loose 1 x attack when all is said and done?
bodazoka wrote: Did anyone rely on smash to pop vehicles? I rarely used that attack or wanted to use that attack to do that. I would always glance it to death or fly around the back/sides and get at it that way.
Also does smash still get the benefits of modifiers like charging? so a 4 or 3 attack model may only then loose 1 x attack when all is said and done?
I used it on Daemon Princes, characters, Leman Russ, Land Raiders... it's kinda important sadly. Now, we are just being forced to shoot them. So Flyrants took an overall boost I think. But Crones took a minor nerf, as did Harpies. Daemon Princes and Thirsters both took big hits.
bodazoka wrote: Did anyone rely on smash to pop vehicles? I rarely used that attack or wanted to use that attack to do that. I would always glance it to death or fly around the back/sides and get at it that way.
Also does smash still get the benefits of modifiers like charging? so a 4 or 3 attack model may only then loose 1 x attack when all is said and done?
I used it on Daemon Princes, characters, Leman Russ, Land Raiders... it's kinda important sadly. Now, we are just being forced to shoot them. So Flyrants took an overall boost I think. But Crones took a minor nerf, as did Harpies. Daemon Princes and Thirsters both took big hits.
Agreed on characters and models you could double out it is a bit of a nerf, I just never relied on CC killing tanks. I have no sadness for the other non Tyranid FMC's getting nerfs! haha
Ill have a look at lunch time regarding the extra attacks for smash when charging.
bodazoka wrote: Did anyone rely on smash to pop vehicles? I rarely used that attack or wanted to use that attack to do that. I would always glance it to death or fly around the back/sides and get at it that way.
Also does smash still get the benefits of modifiers like charging? so a 4 or 3 attack model may only then loose 1 x attack when all is said and done?
Trygons need smash to be good against vehicles, as did meleerants and pretty much any tyranid MC in melee that isn't a Carnifex.
With the new rules, I see the Trygon's only competetive usage to be as a paperweight or diorama piece.
I'm thinking Tervigons with Crushing Claws / Outflank may be a solid choice, by virtue of other MCs getting worse. We're going to struggle against multiple Land Raiders, Monoliths and often Russ variants. Haruspex may also get a look in now.
On the bright side, the FOC is basically a formality now. Providing you stick to the 1 HQ / 2 Troop you can take as many detachments as you like, so Elite slots are less of any issue now. Think I'll be taking a full 6 units of Zoans/Venoms/Hive Guard most of the time.
xttz wrote: I'm thinking Tervigons with Crushing Claws / Outflank may be a solid choice, by virtue of other MCs getting worse. We're going to struggle against multiple Land Raiders, Monoliths and often Russ variants. Haruspex may also get a look in now.
On the bright side, the FOC is basically a formality now. Providing you stick to the 1 HQ / 2 Troop you can take as many detachments as you like, so Elite slots are less of any issue now. Think I'll be taking a full 6 units of Zoans/Venoms/Hive Guard most of the time.
Contemptor dreads, Maulerfiends, Ironclad dreadnoughts, and Knights are also going to be a problem.
Beware the Blood Angels Contemptor dread with blood claws. Or at least prepare your sphincter.
I've done some math on point-per-glance / pen against AV13 / 14 in melee.
Fexes with Crushing Claws are about 2 - 2.5 times more effective than vanilla Fexes using Smash. Interestingly Tyrant Guard with CC are very close behind, although don't benefit from HoW. Haruspex are about halfway between CC and vanilla Fexes per point.
All units had adrenals for Fleet/Strength.
Of course all these options attack after most AV13 walkers which tend to be I4.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: Should we get a second look at haywire Hguards?
Against AV13 and lower, Impaler Cannons are better thanks to better range, more shots, ignoring line of sight and Ignores Cover. They also have the fringe benefit of doubling out T4 multi-wound models like Nobz, Crisis Suits and Broadsides if no vehicle targets are around.
Shock Cannons really needed better range, better accuracy and/or more shots, they're pretty weak considering you pay 60pts each for them and have to practically be within assault range to fire.
Here's a neat bit: Crushing Claws inately raise a Carnifex to Strength 10, which then carries over to the D3 Hammer of Wrath hits. Hammer of Wrath hits are auto-hits, not attacks, too.
So, a Carni with claws can open up tin cans like made.
For more interesting stuff, outside of melee, the Psychic Lance is the *only* Tyranid attack that can 'splode a vehicle. Since there's no AP 1 or 2 weapons, there's no way to get the +1 damage that will take hits above Immobilize.
So, plus side, tanks won't blow up and take out swaths of little bugs.
Down side is that we focus on hull point stripping to the exclusion of all else now.
You only ever take old one eye in joke lists or when you have an appetite for punishment that borders on the masochistic.
Well, considering that we've seen that there is no limit to Battleforged detachments....OOE might be viable as we do have some pretty cheap troops choices and to be perfectly fair it's not as though he'll be eating a Tyrant slot as we can always take ANOTHER detachment for more Tyrants.
On a side note, swarms seem to be scoring now, which makes rippers also super scoring.
Am i seeing a trend with all our heavy choices getting worse and our troop section getting better?
I really can't see myself using OOE ever. For 55pts more than a Claw/Regen Fex you get: a near-useless Ld boost, a near useless tail upgrade (S4 AP4), an extra attack and that Beserk Rampage rule (which is OK. but not 55pts OK). On the other hand, OOE can't take Fleet (essential), Spine Banks to ensure attacking before powerfists, and can't add any ablative wounds or leapfrog like Fex broods can.
I really can't see myself using OOE ever. For 55pts more than a Claw/Regen Fex you get: a near-useless Ld boost, a near useless tail upgrade (S4 AP4), an extra attack and that Beserk Rampage rule (which is OK. but not 55pts OK). On the other hand, OOE can't take Fleet (essential), Spine Banks to ensure attacking before powerfists, and can't add any ablative wounds or leapfrog like Fex broods can.
And a warlord trait you will never get to use unless OOE is literally your only HQ.
Which is essentially shooting yourself in the foot before the game begins.
Key word - might. I will say the new force org opens up more options for us and things we'd have ignored in the past - OOE and Deathleaper might start seeing the light of day again as the fact they take up HQ slots isn't so much an issue now that was can take unlimited detachments.
Of course, this may not happen because LOL MORE TYRANTS.
Actually, LOL MORE TYRANTS is probably going to be what happens. I get the sneaky suspicion the Psychic Phase might turn 40k into a Psyker arms race - which nids are actually rather fortunate with due to the fact we can spit out so many psykers (a single Zoey is ML 2 - that's 2 more dice for us for cheap points).
And having seen the Perils chart...well, let's just say if you get a 6 on a Tyrant it's well worth not caring if you suffer a wound for it. Getting a 3+ invuln save and fleshbane is hilarious.
PrinceRaven wrote: Flyrants are definitely still useful, just more as a psyker and gunboat than a combat threat.
sneaky ninja flyrant creeps along, behind the bushes and shrubs.
Giving the enemy 1 turn to fire at full BS before mounting an assault is fair play. If they ground you before hand it means you'll charge 1 turn sooner. Whoops!
Is anyone else seeing the value of the zoanthrope in this edition? 2 warp charges and synapse on a creature that rarely uses its powers (unless onslaught/catalyst) early game anyways...and gets dominion for free
Actually, has it even been mentioned that all our psykers get dominion for free in addition to their powers? Boss.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everyone's talking about how additional psykers just turn into batteries...but we have excellent batteries.
Tyran wrote: A Harridan and Skyblight. Add winged stuff if you have more points.
That is the only way I can think of playing nids in this moment.
...
...why?
Because he clearly has 7th edition in front of him and had enough play time with it to make a reasonable and rational decision on what will be the competitive Nid net list.
ductvader wrote: Is anyone else seeing the value of the zoanthrope in this edition? 2 warp charges and synapse on a creature that rarely uses its powers (unless onslaught/catalyst) early game anyways...and gets dominion for free
Actually, has it even been mentioned that all our psykers get dominion for free in addition to their powers? Boss.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everyone's talking about how additional psykers just turn into batteries...but we have excellent batteries.
Yes! I am loving the Zoanthrope potential now!
So has it been confirmed that we can ally with ourselves so we can get 4 groups of them if we wanted? Or is unbound the only way?
In either case, I still want to try them out.
Also...might have to get me some marine pods now that we can use allies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: such is the tyranid way right?....haha...thought of running a tyrannic veteran force and sandwiching my opponent between them.
I've been thinking about building a Wrecker Node anyway, so this may well provide that little push I need to go ahead and buy four more Carnifexes.
Non-Walkers are now hit on their rear armour in melee, so almost everything bar Monoliths and Land Raiders are still going to be toast if you charge in an average MC. Walkers are more of a problem, but then again it was dangerous charging a lot of our MCs into combat Walkers already so I don't think this is as bad as it seems. Hose with Devourers, Bio-plasmic streams, Haywire and Crone strikes as normal.
I have gotten a lot of joy out of a winged assassin Tyrant in recent months (Adrenals + Reaper), largely through being very careful with it (make it the Warlord, don't rush it forward) and striking key targets so not charging the turn you change flight modes isn't that much of a nerf to that playstyle. It is a huge nerf to the flexibility of the Devourer-armed Tyrant though, which could dance around hosing units and then charge whenever you liked more or less. A bit sad for the Harpy too, because that Sonic Screech is actually pretty handy.
I'm going to try and cram in as many games as possible in the next month with my normal list though before I start making changes, hopefully to get a nice feel on how my favourite units have changed.
BoomWolf wrote: Even when bound, you can even take double, triple and quad level of charts, as long you meet the required HQ and troops.
I've been saying that for 2 days, now. Sheesh.
I'm telling you guys, forget the old 40k. Let battle forged and unbound forces clash at-will. The game will move on as it ever did. Just enforce wysiwyg and the abuse and shenanigans will police themselves. Who the hell buys 10 hell drakes just to win toy soldiers? (Then auto-loses turn 1 for no models on the board)
Unbound is a footnote...like the "choose to use whatever rules you want" footnote thats in whatever edition.
I'm sure it won't even be the norm as tournaments will probably just say forged and put an end to shenanigans.
Not saying unbound is bad...just that it "most likely" wont stick as the go-to.
We've got some big changes ahead...excted to see what happens to the book. I am catching aspects of our book that I believe were intended for some of these new rules.
Just wondering, what's everyone's thoughts on the Deathleaper as an HQ? I'm entering a tournament in a few weeks with sever limitations on HQ points (max of 200) and was thinking of running a Deathleaper or Tyranid Prime as my Warlord choice.
Xyptc wrote: One particularly happy thought is that Move Through Cover would seem to no longer drop your Initiative.
Could this herald the return of the Genestealers... ?
Crones are also actually a little better when VSing fliers now too.
MTC does not say it ignores that penalty, as rigeld mentions. Until the assault section of the book says something similar to, units charging at full movement, attack at full initiative, we're still attacking at I1. The bright side of this is, less area terrain may mean less difficult terrain.
Putting together a general summary of things so far. Shout up if you have anymore.
~General~
[BUFF] The FOC is just a formality now, opening up use of lots more Elite / HS slots.
[BUFF] Rippers are now super-scoring. Yay.
[BUFF] We can take allies! (just). Gentlemen, commence the Genestealer cults...
[BUFF] Grounding tests are much more reliable. Failed tests also mean you can't be blown apart with every weapon on the board, and are only vulnerable to being charged.
[NERF] Vector strikes do much less damage to ground and slightly less to air, but gained AP2 making them better for beating TEQs.
[NERF] No more area terrain cover.
[NERF] No more attaching Primes to Carnifex broods.
[NERF] Nids can't deal with AV13+ reliably without Lords of War, or tons of Zoanthropes. We're really going to struggle with super-scoring Land Raiders.
~Psychic~
[BUFF] All Tyranid psykers get Dominion in addition to their normal rolls, which is helpful.
[BUFF] We generally get a decent amount of warp charge thanks to Tyrants, and can spam cheap Zoanthrope broods for more
[BUFF] Zoanthrope broods can use 2 powers per turn now
[BUFF] Warp Blast/Lance can be used in addition to other shooting attacks
~Assault~
[BUFF] Charges are more reliable thanks to nearly everything gribbly having Move Through Cover.
[NERF] Smash took a major nerf. Crushing Claw Fexes are the best option for killing heavy armour in melee (if you can get them there alive).
[NERF] FMCs can't assault on the turn they change flight mode, but can still assault after failing a grounding test.
~Shooting~
[NERF] Our only weapon able to one-shot AV13+ at range is Warp Lance - HVCs effectively had their damage roll penalty restored and won't cut it anymore.
~Lords of War~
[BUFF] D-weapons were pretty majorly toned down. Hierophants have a better chance of surviving a Revenant or Warhound now. Don't forget Venomthropes for them - or better yet, use the transport upgrade to carry them around with a huge radius. Hierodules will still evaporate on turn 1 because they're overpriced garbage.
[BUFF] Harridans are the shiznit. Seriously. With the grounding test change there are very few skyfire weapons that can scratch them. Harridans are our only serious counter to anything Knight-sized and larger, so if you play against super-heavies you should really acquire one.
I do love how rippers single-handedly might have gone from our worst to our best troop choice.
So our FMC no longer get cover from area terrain? That is unfortunate, and means that the venomthropes are now more critical than ever. It does make sense though. Do gargantuan creatures still get it?
But yeah, with Lords of War, we probably have some of the best escalation models out there. ESPECIALLY if the hierophant can get 3+ cover from carrying a venomthrope in area terrain. LOLZ
By the way, I did spend some time with the new book (not too much, I've got a hierophant to build!) and I wanted to confirm some things that I checked on (in the event that they haven't already been beyond doubt)
1) Vector strikes - 1 against ground targets, d3+1 against flyers, just as rumored. AP 2, ignores cover
2) FMC can't assault after changing flight mode
3) FMC can assault if grounded the previous turn
4) grounding is only 1 3+ check at the end of the shooting phase
5) smash is only a single attack (I would have to check the wording about getting a charge bonus; didn't think about that at the time)
6) Swarms are no longer non-scoring
To de-bunk a few notable ones:
1) snap-fire is unchanged, not -2 BS 2) no consolidate into combat
They have objective: secured and have a lot of wounds. You see less actual s6 than most people realize, meaning that much of the time you will need to go through all of their wounds, and if you utilize cover correctly, it's like having 3 gants. The reason why this is nice is because you don't lose anything until the whole base is dead, and at 4.333 points/wound it's not bad. They can also deep strike for the same cost as a gargoyle, which is arguably worse, but you don't need to run skyblight for that unit to have objective: secured. They are also natively fearless even outside of synapse and will typically do what you want them to do outside of synapse (so long as they don't eat themselves). I'm not going to run out and buy a bunch, but that's mostly because I am running skyblight, and prefer to have the synapse of warriors as my troop support.
The Heirophant still melts in concentrated D-strength fire, you're going to want a Harridan so you can avoid getting nuked off the board.
Ok, and to be clear, what doesn't "melt in concentrated D-strength fire"? My point is that it can take cover saves now (which, again, might be as good as 3+ or 2+ with night fighting) which significantly makes up for their lack of an invulnerable save, meaning that they can withstand MUCH more strength D fire than they previously could since cover is now allowed.
For the record, though, I do have a Harridan. And I can't WAIT for it to wreck.
luke1705 wrote: They have objective: secured and have a lot of wounds. You see less actual s6 than most people realize, meaning that much of the time you will need to go through all of their wounds, and if you utilize cover correctly, it's like having 3 gants. The reason why this is nice is because you don't lose anything until the whole base is dead, and at 4.333 points/wound it's not bad. They can also deep strike for the same cost as a gargoyle, which is arguably worse, but you don't need to run skyblight for that unit to have objective: secured. They are also natively fearless even outside of synapse and will typically do what you want them to do outside of synapse (so long as they don't eat themselves). I'm not going to run out and buy a bunch, but that's mostly because I am running skyblight, and prefer to have the synapse of warriors as my troop support.
The Heirophant still melts in concentrated D-strength fire, you're going to want a Harridan so you can avoid getting nuked off the board.
Ok, and to be clear, what doesn't "melt in concentrated D-strength fire"? My point is that it can take cover saves now (which, again, might be as good as 3+ or 2+ with night fighting) which significantly makes up for their lack of an invulnerable save, meaning that they can withstand MUCH more strength D fire than they previously could since cover is now allowed.
For the record, though, I do have a Harridan. And I can't WAIT for it to wreck.
I don't think a Heirophant can survive a Warlord Titan's ire.
And that's a thing I actually have to worry about.
Multiple warlord titans.
Sometimes even Imperator Titans (yeah I have those kinds of friends).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xttz wrote: I don't have a Harridan, but I'm happy these dudes will see some action at last
You mean the Heirophants right?
Because the Heirodule still loses assault to Darnath Lysander and Ironfather Smashfether.
Psykers are allowed to shoot as many witchfire powers as they want against different targets. This no longer effects the ability to shoot all your weapons.
A Tyrant rolling Warp Blast and Psycic scream is now one of the best alpha strikes in the game! Not to mention once you fly up first turn, Blast then Scream then Shoot your devs your opponent will make sure he hits the ground in his shooting phase leaving you free to charge in yours!!
Psykers are allowed to shoot as many witchfire powers as they want against different targets. This no longer effects the ability to shoot all your weapons.
A Tyrant rolling Warp Blast and Psycic scream is now one of the best alpha strikes in the game! Not to mention once you fly up first turn, Blast then Scream then Shoot your devs your opponent will make sure he hits the ground in his shooting phase leaving you free to charge in yours!!
ductvader wrote: Is anyone else seeing the value of the zoanthrope in this edition? 2 warp charges and synapse on a creature that rarely uses its powers (unless onslaught/catalyst) early game anyways...and gets dominion for free
Actually, has it even been mentioned that all our psykers get dominion for free in addition to their powers? Boss.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everyone's talking about how additional psykers just turn into batteries...but we have excellent batteries.
Yep, one of the best in the game now. ML2 with 3 powers is awesome, such a great force multiplier now he has a reliable 18" synapse can be fairly easily hidden and is able to provide 2 dice to the pool with early game onslaught or catalyst.
So with the critical nerfs to FMC's, I feel like adrenal glands and Trygon's may have a new purpose. But theres now simply no way to justify a flying Tyrant with a Reaper, even in fun games, which sucks because I really liked that particular Tyrant.
I just cant fathom the 1 smash attack only that still has to roll to hit.
Crones just went way out of style...to me they were the silver lining of our codex, and now not so much. : /
Iechine wrote: It's a good time to have him running around...
So with the critical nerfs to FMC's, I feel like adrenal glands and Trygon's may have a new purpose. But theres now simply no way to justify a flying Tyrant with a Reaper, even in fun games, which sucks because I really liked that particular Tyrant.
I just cant fathom the 1 smash attack only that still has to roll to hit.
Crones just went way out of style...to me they were the silver lining of our codex, and now not so much. : /
I think you'll find them useful still. Playing them differently does not make them bad when others will also be playing their armies differently.
Crones just went way out of style...to me they were the silver lining of our codex, and now not so much. : /
They are better at just circling around vector striking people though, d3 S8 AP2 autohits will do a serious number on any elite unit.
Vector strikes are just one hit now at AP2.
To be fair they are also much harder to ground which for me was there biggest weakness. Someone would easily ground it and just tear through those wounds.
Crones just went way out of style...to me they were the silver lining of our codex, and now not so much. : /
They are better at just circling around vector striking people though, d3 S8 AP2 autohits will do a serious number on any elite unit.
Vector strikes are just one hit now at AP2.
To be fair they are also much harder to ground which for me was there biggest weakness. Someone would easily ground it and just tear through those wounds.
They are tougher to kill by far. Now, I wonderifI it will be worth it to buy extra guns for them, as they'll live long enough to run out of missiles, and vector strike is situational.
Crones just went way out of style...to me they were the silver lining of our codex, and now not so much. : /
They are better at just circling around vector striking people though, d3 S8 AP2 autohits will do a serious number on any elite unit.
Vector strikes are just one hit now at AP2.
To be fair they are also much harder to ground which for me was there biggest weakness. Someone would easily ground it and just tear through those wounds.
They are tougher to kill by far. Now, I wonderifI it will be worth it to buy extra guns for them, as they'll live long enough to run out of missiles, and vector strike is situational.
Flamers kill passengers of open topped vehicles in case you missed it (d6 hits at str and ap of weapon). Crones still have tons of early to mid game use! Then landing to score a distant objective at the end of game. Win.
Only with templates(including the hellstorm template). If you aim a template weapon over a fire point on a building, or in any part of an open-topped transport the occupants take d6 hits at the strength and ap of the weapon.
Heavy Support: Tyrannofex (Electroshock Grubs, Fleshborer Hive) 190
Total: 1000 Points
Basically, here's the quick rules for this thing:
HQ cannot exceed 200 points, attachments units (Tyrant Guard) do not count towards that total. No other unit can exceed 300 points. You are only allowed 1 flyer/list and you cannot have duplicates of the same monsterous creature unless it is within its own unit (ie. Carnifexes).
Basically, I'm going to march up the field, using the Crone to harass early game combined with HVC and BS on the Warriors. Thoughts? Changes I could make?
Edit: Decided to drop the Toxin Sacs from the fex and a Warrior squad. Added a gaunt squad and 1 Warrior to the remaining Warrior squad.
Obviously the venomthrope and warriors are all embarked...since its an assault vehicle thats an angry warrior brood that can pop out and do quite a bit of damage to most targets, let alone having the Hierophant ready to assault and have eternal 3+ cover.
An alternative is working a Tervigon in there without another flyrant, but the spawned troops just dont have that glimmer that they used to (Especially squishy termagant ones).
Before 7th I never would have considered using a Hierophant in a serious manner, but now that vehicles could give a feth about tyranid MC's (especially the slow ones) then perhaps its something to look in to. What will the predicted land raider spam's really have
to argue against it?
Crones just went way out of style...to me they were the silver lining of our codex, and now not so much. : /
They are better at just circling around vector striking people though, d3 S8 AP2 autohits will do a serious number on any elite unit.
Vector strikes are just one hit now at AP2.
To be fair they are also much harder to ground which for me was there biggest weakness. Someone would easily ground it and just tear through those wounds.
For a vehicle that vector strikes, not a FMC. (AFAIK)
Is Land Raider spam really going to become and then stay "a thing" though?
Sure, it's a big model and will be able to score. It's hard to kill, and can push models off of objectives at the end of the game.
On the other hand, it's a big model, it's expensive and aside from the tactical uses above, it's not particularly lethal in a direct sense (most of them anyway).
I would compare them to our Tervigons back in 5th; big scoring bricks with some tactical benefits. The difference is that the Tervigons had massive tactical use (Synapse, 1-3 Biomancy rolls, Termagant spawning/buffing, filling a gap in anti-vehicle roles) in addition to their scoring status. I just don't see the Land Raider being as effective as the Tervigon was, and the Tervigon wasn't even that effective.
I would imagine a month or two of Land Raider lists, then people will start to think "maybe I'll take one Land Raider out and put in something else... then two...".
So we got boned super hard in our ability to take out mech. The nerfing was so complete that I would assume that some of our wargear is going to have to be updated to make tyranids function against super-scoring Land Raiders, Drop Pods and Rhinos.
Right now I'm eying an Eldar Ally to provide my anti-tank. However, since this is a thread about being positive. Here are some wargear suggestions that might make Tyranids playable in 7th.
These suggestions could all fix the problem. I'm not calling for all of them, just 1
1) Warp Lance range upped to 48", and AP set back to AP:1. This would make it useful in most games, and prevent the vehicles from running from the super slow Zoenthropes.
2) Exocrine Has either Lance, Haywire, or Armorbane.
3) TL-Devourers with BL worms gets lance.
4) Trygon Shooting becomes haywire (makes sense from the fluff)
5) Crone gets D6 vector strike hits against vehicles.
6) Crushing Claws reduced to 5 points, and can be swapped in for STs on any TMC, and Bio-plasma (on Carnifexes) upped to 24" range.
7) All tails get Armorbane or Haywire. <- Look I just made tails useful.
8) HVC becomes S9 Assault 3, AP:2.
9) Rupture Cannon becomes S10 Assault 8, AP:2
10) Synapse grants Armorbane in close combat. <- Makes no, sense, but neither does Invincible Land Raiders.
11) Impaler Cannon become Melta, and get AP:1 or a longer range or something.
12) Scything Talons become AP:1 when wield by a TMC.
13) Carnifexes become beasts.
14) Mawloc's Terror from the Deep become Ordinance, AP:1, and is resolved against back armor.
15) Deathspitters become S8, AP:1, Assault 1, Melta <- look I just made Deathspitters worth it, and now Tyranids have Melta just like most other codexes.
tag8833 wrote: So we got boned super hard in our ability to take out mech. The nerfing was so complete that I would assume that some of our wargear is going to have to be updated to make tyranids function against super-scoring Land Raiders, Drop Pods and Rhinos.
Right now I'm eying an Eldar Ally to provide my anti-tank. However, since this is a thread about being positive. Here are some wargear suggestions that might make Tyranids playable in 7th.
These suggestions could all fix the problem. I'm not calling for all of them, just 1
1) Warp Lance range upped to 48", and AP set back to AP:1. This would make it useful in most games, and prevent the vehicles from running from the super slow Zoenthropes.
2) Exocrine Has either Lance, Haywire, or Armorbane.
3) TL-Devourers with BL worms gets lance.
4) Trygon Shooting becomes haywire (makes sense from the fluff)
5) Crone gets D6 vector strike hits against vehicles.
6) Crushing Claws reduced to 5 points, and can be swapped in for STs on any TMC, and Bio-plasma (on Carnifexes) upped to 24" range.
7) All tails get Armorbane or Haywire. <- Look I just made tails useful.
8) HVC becomes S9 Assault 3, AP:2.
9) Rupture Cannon becomes S10 Assault 8, AP:2
10) Synapse grants Armorbane in close combat. <- Makes no, sense, but neither does Invincible Land Raiders.
11) Impaler Cannon become Melta, and get AP:1 or a longer range or something.
12) Scything Talons become AP:1 when wield by a TMC.
13) Carnifexes become beasts.
14) Mawloc's Terror from the Deep become Ordinance, AP:1, and is resolved against back armor.
15) Deathspitters become S8, AP:1, Assault 1, Melta <- look I just made Deathspitters worth it, and now Tyranids have Melta just like most other codexes.
Iechine wrote: " I'm not calling for all of them, just 1 "
The only one that I can get behind is the HVC change, and even then I'd be more comfortable with AP3 and a two shot no blast mode.
The bio-electric haywire makes sense but I'd be very, very hesistant to put it into use even if GW seems to be unable to agree on what electricity does.
Honestly i still hope for a clarification that says that transports are never super scoring. Would make WS spam and LR spam so broken that it would make no sense thinking about other competitive lists.
Too bad cause for everything else this edition is quite nice.
Xyptc wrote: Is Land Raider spam really going to become and then stay "a thing" though?
Nearly 1/2 of all lists I see have 1 Land Raider in the already in 6th. 1/8 lists is a double Land Raider list. I even saw a 3 Land Raider list the other day, but I didn't play it. I've also seen a 3 Monolith list, though that seemed to be somewhat of a joke. The Land Raider is one of the favorite models in my Meta.
Now in 7th, with giant buffs to Land Raiders, I don't think I'll be seeing less of them.
Another note about losing Smash. I've used Smash to successfully take down high Toughness MC's like Iron Armed Great Unclean Ones, or Wraith Knights, or Iron Armed Mephiston. Without Smash, and with the buff to Iron Arm, I'm going to have to include a unit of Poison HGaunts in my TAC list. I like HGaunts, and tend to run a few in my list, but I almost never upgrade them, because the upgrades are too expensive. I guess I will have to bite the bullet, and drop some Devilgaunts from my list.
Lastly, one list that I run that is going to be mostly unaffected by the Version change is my version of Ductvader's Turn Two Tsunami. It was already unable to deal with Land Raiders, but it still got the job done just fine against Land Raider lists, and should still do ok popping Rhinos. I have been wildly successful with that list, and perhaps it will become my standard list.
Iechine wrote: " I'm not calling for all of them, just 1 "
The only one that I can get behind is the HVC change, and even then I'd be more comfortable with AP3 and a two shot no blast mode.
So, on a Tyrant, we hit with 1.3. On a Harpy we hit with 1.5. On a Carnifex we hit with 1. If we are shooting at an Annihilation Barge front, with a Tyrant we do .6 HP, with a Harpy we do .75 HP, with a Carnifex we do .5 HP. We have a 0% chance of exploding it. So a Carnifex only needs to shoot at an Annihilation barge for 6 turns to kill it. It is worse against a Lemun Russ or Land Raider.
I agree, I think it should almost be possible to kill 1 vehicle with our best anti-tank weapon per game. We wouldn't want to get crazy, and let the bugs kill a 2nd vehicle in a game.
We do have a /tg/brew Tyranid fandex under construction on 1d4chan and you're welcome to check it out, post your thoughts, and see what ideas you can put in.
So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers. And they aren't exactly cheap either. 1 little bugger costs more than 3 termagants. Am I missing something here?
On the other hand, Necron scarab-farm have become more viable due to their spiders being able to pump out up to 9 scarabs each turn. That's a 135-pt unit and 27 Wounds free each turn!
Since, everyone is showing their Lords of War collection, let me share mine as well.
tag8833 wrote: So we got boned super hard in our ability to take out mech. The nerfing was so complete that I would assume that some of our wargear is going to have to be updated to make tyranids function against super-scoring Land Raiders, Drop Pods and Rhinos.
Right now I'm eying an Eldar Ally to provide my anti-tank. However, since this is a thread about being positive. Here are some wargear suggestions that might make Tyranids playable in 7th.
These suggestions could all fix the problem. I'm not calling for all of them, just 1
1) Warp Lance range upped to 48", and AP set back to AP:1. This would make it useful in most games, and prevent the vehicles from running from the super slow Zoenthropes.
2) Exocrine Has either Lance, Haywire, or Armorbane.
3) TL-Devourers with BL worms gets lance.
4) Trygon Shooting becomes haywire (makes sense from the fluff)
5) Crone gets D6 vector strike hits against vehicles.
6) Crushing Claws reduced to 5 points, and can be swapped in for STs on any TMC, and Bio-plasma (on Carnifexes) upped to 24" range.
7) All tails get Armorbane or Haywire. <- Look I just made tails useful.
8) HVC becomes S9 Assault 3, AP:2.
9) Rupture Cannon becomes S10 Assault 8, AP:2
10) Synapse grants Armorbane in close combat. <- Makes no, sense, but neither does Invincible Land Raiders.
11) Impaler Cannon become Melta, and get AP:1 or a longer range or something.
12) Scything Talons become AP:1 when wield by a TMC.
13) Carnifexes become beasts.
14) Mawloc's Terror from the Deep become Ordinance, AP:1, and is resolved against back armor.
15) Deathspitters become S8, AP:1, Assault 1, Melta <- look I just made Deathspitters worth it, and now Tyranids have Melta just like most other codexes.
Add to the Pyrovore template the following rule:
Melting point: Vehicles models hit by this weapon have the AV reduced on all side by 2 for a turn.
Add to the Acid Blood rule the following:
"In addition, models with this rule count all their meele weapons as having the Armourbane rule"
Add the following rule to Stranglewebs:
Entangle: Roll a dice for every vehicle model hit by this weapon. On a 5+ the vehicle is immobilized for a turn.
These would be enough. We struggle against vehicles by design, we don't want to become efficient at hunting them. Just mixing up a bit of anti vehicle in our seldom considered choices would be enough.
jy2 wrote: So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers.
They're not really good, they're just less terrible.
Being able to super-score at least gives them a reason to be in the Troops slot. With the changes to area terrain and cover saves, it's also really easy to keep such small models 25% obscured.
Also with super-scoring Land Raiders now possible, I wouldn't be surprised to see that S6/7 meta shift fairly quickly.
Troop raiders can only be done by BA and deathwing DA unless I am missing someone?
(no, not inquisition! they are NOT troops, they are elites, and if they are main the score. unless FAQs change anything, their raiders will not be securing.)
jy2 wrote: So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers. And they aren't exactly cheap either. 1 little bugger costs more than 3 termagants. Am I missing something here?
Rippers are very low maintenance scoring units. For basically gant pricing, you get 1 less wound, but gain stealth and fearless. Combine with shrouding from a venom and they'll be hard to shoot down. I think the most crucial part is their size. If stronghold assault is mainstream now, you can add a single defense piece to your Bastion, and that will block LoS completely. Also, their IB really isn't that deadly.
I can't see any point in deploying non-ruins terrain anymore. It will just slow down my Nids and mess up deployment and be an annoying reminder of when we had actual staying power.
jy2 wrote: So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers. And they aren't exactly cheap either. 1 little bugger costs more than 3 termagants. Am I missing something here?
Rippers are very low maintenance scoring units. For basically gant pricing, you get 1 less wound, but gain stealth and fearless. Combine with shrouding from a venom and they'll be hard to shoot down. I think the most crucial part is their size. If stronghold assault is mainstream now, you can add a single defense piece to your Bastion, and that will block LoS completely. Also, their IB really isn't that deadly.
Ld5 with feed is the issue. Though a lone ripper swarm could feasibly hide on an objective.
jy2 wrote: So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers. And they aren't exactly cheap either. 1 little bugger costs more than 3 termagants. Am I missing something here?
Rippers are very low maintenance scoring units. For basically gant pricing, you get 1 less wound, but gain stealth and fearless. Combine with shrouding from a venom and they'll be hard to shoot down. I think the most crucial part is their size. If stronghold assault is mainstream now, you can add a single defense piece to your Bastion, and that will block LoS completely. Also, their IB really isn't that deadly.
Ld5 with feed is the issue. Though a lone ripper swarm could feasibly hide on an objective.
Rippers with feed are much better than horms with feed...only 9 s3 attacks instead of 30 s3 attacks.
jy2 wrote: So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers. And they aren't exactly cheap either. 1 little bugger costs more than 3 termagants. Am I missing something here?
Rippers are very low maintenance scoring units. For basically gant pricing, you get 1 less wound, but gain stealth and fearless. Combine with shrouding from a venom and they'll be hard to shoot down. I think the most crucial part is their size. If stronghold assault is mainstream now, you can add a single defense piece to your Bastion, and that will block LoS completely. Also, their IB really isn't that deadly.
Ld5 with feed is the issue. Though a lone ripper swarm could feasibly hide on an objective.
Rippers with feed are much better than horms with feed...only 9 s3 attacks instead of 30 s3 attacks.
Assuming they don't eat themselves or break when they start losing assault.
jy2 wrote: So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers. And they aren't exactly cheap either. 1 little bugger costs more than 3 termagants. Am I missing something here?
Rippers are very low maintenance scoring units. For basically gant pricing, you get 1 less wound, but gain stealth and fearless. Combine with shrouding from a venom and they'll be hard to shoot down. I think the most crucial part is their size. If stronghold assault is mainstream now, you can add a single defense piece to your Bastion, and that will block LoS completely. Also, their IB really isn't that deadly.
Ld5 with feed is the issue. Though a lone ripper swarm could feasibly hide on an objective.
Rippers with feed are much better than horms with feed...only 9 s3 attacks instead of 30 s3 attacks.
Assuming they don't eat themselves or break when they start losing assault.
jy2 wrote: So I still don't really understand why rippers are so good. The meta is still S6/7-spam. That is instant death for those little buggers. And they aren't exactly cheap either. 1 little bugger costs more than 3 termagants. Am I missing something here?
Rippers are very low maintenance scoring units. For basically gant pricing, you get 1 less wound, but gain stealth and fearless. Combine with shrouding from a venom and they'll be hard to shoot down. I think the most crucial part is their size. If stronghold assault is mainstream now, you can add a single defense piece to your Bastion, and that will block LoS completely. Also, their IB really isn't that deadly.
Ld5 with feed is the issue. Though a lone ripper swarm could feasibly hide on an objective.
Rippers with feed are much better than horms with feed...only 9 s3 attacks instead of 30 s3 attacks.
Assuming they don't eat themselves or break when they start losing assault.
Which is quite a dangerous assumption to make.
Rippers are fearless.
Ah right.
Still, I don't trust the IB table. It's bad juju.
And scarabs (either regular or charnel) make my rippers jealous.
Yea, when self-eating, rippers only deal 1 hit per 3 wounds to themselves.
Even if they eat themselves every other turn (should not happen that much, only 50% AFTER a failed LD, if there is no synaps that happens to be near enough), it will take them about 13-14 turns to take themselves out, far more then the game length.
Yea, they will probably take some fire, but its not easy to even get LoS on them if they hide around.
Seriously, rippers cost was increased BECAUSE on 7th. they would be insane at old price.
3 Rippers can inflict a maximum of 3 strength 3 hits on themselves. Because multi-wound models are removed one at a time instead of distributing them evenly, it is physically impossible for a Ripper unit to finish itself off. It is also stealthy, fearless, and damn near impossible to see from downfield if you have any terrain. Or you know, an Aegis defense line.
So yes, if someone deepstrikes near you they can shoot you. Like gants. But, put em near a venomthrope, maybe with terrain around, and Poof! They have a 2+ save just like that. If you're going to play Nids, you'd better be going for a ton of fast threats to hunt your opponent down with. This means that any Deepstriking unit isn't going to shoot your Rippers first turn. Seriously. Rippers have been so bad, and so insignificant, that people aren't going to want to shoot them. who wants to deepstrike in their mega shooty unit and waste a turn killing Rippers?
Let's also remember that half of the IB results boil down to "you can just chill where you are if you want". Between Ld and rolling on the chart, plus wounds and 6+ AS, you are inflicting 0.45 wounds on yourself a turn with 3 Rippers. Plasma veterans do more than that! Also, the dice can't screw you over as you could, max, kill a ripper brood turn 1. Turn 2, you can (at worst) inflict 2 wounds. Turn 3, again two wounds, but you're now down to a single fearless model, who can no longer inflict wounds. More likely? By turn 5, you've two wounds from yourself, and you paid 39 points for 7 fearless, stealthy, scoring wounds that can't be seen. I mean seriously, you could buy an Aegis line and wrap it around two 3 man ripper swarms. They have 3++ cover, can't be seen by anything smaller than a broadside, can hold objectives without contesting, don't need a babysitter, and can't be assaulted by normal models because you can't see them. Have fun getting to my backfield and killing that before my 7 MCs shoot you to hell! (Because, you know, we can only land and assault if you wound us...)
Now, gants. For the same points (+1 actually) you get 1 wound, lose stealth, need a babysitter, can be seen more easily and can be assaulted more easily. I'm probably still going to bring 30 broods of gants, but 10 man gant squad are now done... why not just bring Rippers? They're cheaper and more efficient if you (as I am) bring a MTO style Tyranid list.
BoomWolf wrote: Yea, when self-eating, rippers only deal 1 hit per 3 wounds to themselves.
Even if they eat themselves every other turn (should not happen that much, only 50% AFTER a failed LD, if there is no synaps that happens to be near enough), it will take them about 13-14 turns to take themselves out, far more then the game length.
Yea, they will probably take some fire, but its not easy to even get LoS on them if they hide around.
Seriously, rippers cost was increased BECAUSE on 7th. they would be insane at old price.
I have trouble believing that GW is at all smart enough to comprehend arcane concepts as "balance". A random rock has more brains than the entire company.
In any case, T3 sucks hardcore on multiwound models and nobody is going to bother assaulting something they can just fry with Tesla, a Wave Serpent, Ordered Autocannons, a Baleflamer, hellhounds, eradicators, or really anything that can reliably defeat cover saves with S6 or more.
Go skyblight gargoyles or endless swarm gaunts or go home.
Gargoyles and gaunts get to respawn, rippers don't.
rigeld2 wrote: Please, draw LoS to the Rippers with all those weapons. Especially if you have an Aegis. It's really easy to draw LoS to Gargoyles.
Barrage. Particularly griffon mortars.
Any point spent on something that's not more skyblight swarm or more FMCs is a point not spent on the strongest tactic available.
I'm not convinced that rippers are good when compared to massing skyblight swarms.
You do realize you need troops to be able to take those Skyblight swarms, right? Because... you do. And stuff.
And sure - Barrage works. Do any of the weapons I was replying to have Barrage? No? Okay then.
rigeld2 wrote: Please, draw LoS to the Rippers with all those weapons. Especially if you have an Aegis. It's really easy to draw LoS to Gargoyles.
Barrage. Particularly griffon mortars.
Any point spent on something that's not more skyblight swarm or more FMCs is a point not spent on the strongest tactic available.
I'm not convinced that rippers are good when compared to massing skyblight swarms.
You do realize you need troops to be able to take those Skyblight swarms, right? Because... you do. And stuff.
And sure - Barrage works. Do any of the weapons I was replying to have Barrage? No? Okay then.
They are more S6 weapons that rippers melt away easily from.
Are you sure you can't just take all skyblight in unbound?
In any case I'd rather have a bare minimum of anything that's not more flying circus units and not bother with the ADL. Just park them out of sight behind some terrain and plop the needed objectives there and never pay them any heed for the rest of the game.
Any point I cannot invest into an FMC or super-scoring gargoyles is a point spent towards defeat.
Kain wrote: They are more S6 weapons that rippers melt away easily from.
Yes, but they're more resilient per point than Termagants overall.
Are you sure you can't just take all skyblight in unbound?
I don't care about the crapshoot stupidity that is unbound. At all. So maybe?
In any case I'd rather have a bare minimum of anything that's not more flying circus units and not bother with the ADL. Just park them out of sight behind some terrain and plop the needed objectives there and never pay them any heed for the rest of the game.
Sure. Which is essentially what I was saying. So... we agree? Okay then.
Any point I cannot invest into an FMC or super-scoring gargoyles is a point spent towards defeat.
Good news then! 3 Rippers (smallest unit) costs 1 point less than 10 Termagants (smallest unit) and is far less likely to run away if you don't babysit them (as in, it's impossible)!
rigeld2 wrote: Please, draw LoS to the Rippers with all those weapons. Especially if you have an Aegis. It's really easy to draw LoS to Gargoyles.
Barrage. Particularly griffon mortars.
Any point spent on something that's not more skyblight swarm or more FMCs is a point not spent on the strongest tactic available.
I'm not convinced that rippers are good when compared to massing skyblight swarms.
You do realize you need troops to be able to take those Skyblight swarms, right? Because... you do. And stuff.
And sure - Barrage works. Do any of the weapons I was replying to have Barrage? No? Okay then.
They are more S6 weapons that rippers melt away easily from.
Are you sure you can't just take all skyblight in unbound?
In any case I'd rather have a bare minimum of anything that's not more flying circus units and not bother with the ADL. Just park them out of sight behind some terrain and plop the needed objectives there and never pay them any heed for the rest of the game.
Any point I cannot invest into an FMC or super-scoring gargoyles is a point spent towards defeat.
Your can do attitude is always uplifting Kain! You're to Tyranids, what Martel is to Blood Angels.
I still think we will be fine, ok we will now struggle against parking lots and land raider spam, but that's hardly anything new. We can still field more Haywire than any other army, if those sorts of armies start popping up in your area then start spamming haywire. We will have one of the strongest psychic phases going, we may yet get an FAQ to shadows!
Also we don't know enough about how Tactical Objectives etc will effect the game at large. As with all new releases, calm down, take a step back, play a bunch of games with an open and positive mind. And then after all that, your tears might be valid.
Why not take... Sklyblight AND Rippers? Personally I think that Rippers are the perfect troop for Skyblight. You can keep them in Synapse with Flyrants for 1-2 turns, after that they'll still survive just fine on their own. Cheap, and provides the Battleforged benefits. Personally I'm using a Bastion + Venom for Skyblight to prevent an early alpha strike. That requires no synapse. Then, 2x3 Rippers for cheap scoring that can hide easily. On top of a Bastion? Can't be shot at pretty much. Then, just disembark them later for objectives. Or, hell, put the bastion by the Objective and watch as they can't kill your Rippers! That's 198 points for a rock solid core, then add 1650 points of wings to go hit stuff. I like 7th edition!
rigeld2 wrote: Please, draw LoS to the Rippers with all those weapons. Especially if you have an Aegis. It's really easy to draw LoS to Gargoyles.
Barrage. Particularly griffon mortars.
Any point spent on something that's not more skyblight swarm or more FMCs is a point not spent on the strongest tactic available.
I'm not convinced that rippers are good when compared to massing skyblight swarms.
You do realize you need troops to be able to take those Skyblight swarms, right? Because... you do. And stuff.
And sure - Barrage works. Do any of the weapons I was replying to have Barrage? No? Okay then.
They are more S6 weapons that rippers melt away easily from.
Are you sure you can't just take all skyblight in unbound?
In any case I'd rather have a bare minimum of anything that's not more flying circus units and not bother with the ADL. Just park them out of sight behind some terrain and plop the needed objectives there and never pay them any heed for the rest of the game.
Any point I cannot invest into an FMC or super-scoring gargoyles is a point spent towards defeat.
Your can do attitude is always uplifting Kain! You're to Tyranids, what Martel is to Blood Angels.
I still think we will be fine, ok we will now struggle against parking lots and land raider spam, but that's hardly anything new. We can still field more Haywire than any other army, if those sorts of armies start popping up in your area then start spamming haywire. We will have one of the strongest psychic phases going, we may yet get an FAQ to shadows!
Also we don't know enough about how Tactical Objectives etc will effect the game at large. As with all new releases, calm down, take a step back, play a bunch of games with an open and positive mind. And then after all that, your tears might be valid.
I'm less a downer for Tyranids and more extremely anti-GW as a whole. I hate literally everything about the company and the current debased mockery of a flaming wreck they're trying to pass off as a game at the moment. My hopes is that in convincing people that all is not fine, they will in turn spread the word and eventually lead to GW suffering enough of a financial hit to change it's course. If it merrily skips off to it's destruction then it deserves to die out anyway and I can only hope that my beloved franchise is picked up by people whose collective IQ can't be counted on a single hand.
I've become far too jaded by repeatedly being treated as a sack of money by incompetent game designers to give them the benefit of the doubt on anything they do.
Better to assume that everything GW does will be a colossal failure and be pleasantly surprised when they do something right, than be optimistic and suffer constant disappointment from the frantic keyboard smashings of a collection of some of the worst game designers to have ever made a high-profile product.
A minimum squad of rippers is cheaper than a minimum squad of gaunts. They're the cheapest troop choice available, require next to no babysitting, and are the best troop unit in cover we have. They may only net you two points, but that something allows an extra gargoyle or template here and there.
Also I think you're only allowed one formation in unbound, but I could be wrong about that. Not that it matters, it's barely a footnote in the brb. I seriously doubt it's going to become a big thing.
Eldercaveman wrote: I still think we will be fine, ok we will now struggle against parking lots and land raider spam, but that's hardly anything new. We can still field more Haywire than any other army, if those sorts of armies start popping up in your area then start spamming haywire. We will have one of the strongest psychic phases going, we may yet get an FAQ to shadows!
So Crones can fire 2 haywire shots a turn at BS3. That means 1 hit per turn, 2 hits before they run out of missile. That is about 1.67 Hull points per Crone in the entire game from Haywire.
E. Grubs give 1 haywire hit per vehicle, but must be shot at the same target as the rest of the weapons. So Dakka flyrants have to give up a metric ton of other firepower to use it. TFexes and Tervigons can't get to vehicles to use it. They will be useful against Drop Pod spam, but not much else.
Hive Guard haywire is a joke. 1 Shot at 18" that is small blast BS3, require LOS, and allows for cover. So a unit of 3 Shock cannon Hiver Guard are likely to pick off 1 HP a turn.
Lastly Haywire has lost its ability to explode vehicles. It was only a 1/36 chance, but now it is a 0 chance.
I do not think Haywire is our answer to vehicles unless we get it in some other much more usable form like Trygons.
Has anyone seen anything about any changes to the Deep Strike rules? Mawlocs were pretty solid for what little 6th Edition Codex time they had under 6th Edition BRB, and the mishap table wasn't too punishing.
A Mawloc using Smash has only lost a single attack too, which isn't as bad as some.
E. Grubs give 1 haywire hit per vehicle, but must be shot at the same target as the rest of the weapons. So Dakka flyrants have to give up a metric ton of other firepower to use it. TFexes and Tervigons can't get to vehicles to use it. They will be useful against Drop Pod spam, but not much else.
I regularly get 2-3 shots out of my Egrubs on both my lone Tervigon and my Acid Spray Tfex, plus an Overwatch shot or too as well. Plus, Egrubs are a neat little "yeah, you don't want to charge me with that walker" upgrade. Maybe my meta is just more aggressive than yours, but I rarely have problems getting into range with short ranged weapons like that.
*Edit, I also read that GTG no longer allows you to Overwatch?
Eldercaveman wrote: I still think we will be fine, ok we will now struggle against parking lots and land raider spam, but that's hardly anything new. We can still field more Haywire than any other army, if those sorts of armies start popping up in your area then start spamming haywire. We will have one of the strongest psychic phases going, we may yet get an FAQ to shadows!
So Crones can fire 2 haywire shots a turn at BS3. That means 1 hit per turn, 2 hits before they run out of missile. That is about 1.67 Hull points per Crone in the entire game from Haywire.
E. Grubs give 1 haywire hit per vehicle, but must be shot at the same target as the rest of the weapons. So Dakka flyrants have to give up a metric ton of other firepower to use it. TFexes and Tervigons can't get to vehicles to use it. They will be useful against Drop Pod spam, but not much else.
Hive Guard haywire is a joke. 1 Shot at 18" that is small blast BS3, require LOS, and allows for cover. So a unit of 3 Shock cannon Hiver Guard are likely to pick off 1 HP a turn.
Lastly Haywire has lost its ability to explode vehicles. It was only a 1/36 chance, but now it is a 0 chance.
I do not think Haywire is our answer to vehicles unless we get it in some other much more usable form like Trygons.
It's hardly consistent. But, it messes with Imperial Knights and walkers, and EG on a Flyrant is 10 points... I may not use in some games, but with how stupid tough Land Raiders are now, it's 10 points I'll gladly spend. Especially because I'm not buying Adrenal Glands anymore!
Original post: A buddy of mine pointed out an interesting twist to the Battle Brothers Rules:
Spoiler:
You can embark in an allies transport, but you can't disembark. I guess your Battle Brothers Lock you in.
My guess is T-minus 9 months before this gets FAQed.
ETA:
jifel wrote: It's hardly consistent. But, it messes with Imperial Knights and walkers, and EG on a Flyrant is 10 points... I may not use in some games, but with how stupid tough Land Raiders are now, it's 10 points I'll gladly spend. Especially because I'm not buying Adrenal Glands anymore!
A fair point. With Walkers getting such a huge buff, E.Grubs are going to be standard on my Tyrants, Tervigons, and TFexes. Give me a chance to put it on a Crone, and I would take it there as well. Vector Strike + Haywire if it survives would keep crones useful. Also, being able to drop 2 templates on Ifantry blobs would be good, but not as OP, thanks to the wound allocation changes
tag8833 wrote: A buddy of mine pointed out an interesting twist to the Battle Brothers Rules:
Spoiler:
You can embark in an allies transport, but you can't disembark. I guess your Battle Brothers Lock you in.
My guess is T-minus 9 months before this gets FAQed.
Anybody who tries arguing that you can't disembark should be met with the argument that none of their models without eyes or are wearing a helmet are allowed to fire as they cannot draw TLoS.
Failing that, bapping them on the head with the rulebook is also a good counter-tactic.
Someone in the 7ed thread just pointed out brood lords will have dominion thanks to psychic focus. If it's faq'ed to work out that way, it could be a good use to endure genestealers are fearless in cc.
tetrisphreak wrote: Someone in the 7ed thread just pointed out brood lords will have dominion thanks to psychic focus. If it's faq'ed to work out that way, it could be a good use to endure genestealers are fearless in cc.
Sadly RAW, Dominion adds 6" to your Synapse range and Broodlords don't have Synapse, so there is nothing to add to.
luke1705 wrote: I don't think that it's a valid argument in any way, but RAW wouldn't that mean that their synapse range goes from 0 to 6"?
Not if they don't have the Synapse rule to begin with. In order to have a Synapse range you need to have the Synapse rule, no Synapse rule = nothing to boost the range of. Sort of like how the Force psychic power gives all weapons in the unit with the Force rule ID. No force rule on the weapon = no effect from the Force power.
Don't get me wrong, Synaptic Broodlords would be a cool throwback to 4th Edition, but I just don't think I could follow through with that argument.
Still, I'm happy that Pinning has made units a little easier to assault so Broodlords were passively buffed a little (which is nice, since the Broodlord Hunting Pack can be pretty lethal anyway).
luke1705 wrote: I don't think that it's a valid argument in any way, but RAW wouldn't that mean that their synapse range goes from 0 to 6"?
Not if they don't have the Synapse rule to begin with. In order to have a Synapse range you need to have the Synapse rule, no Synapse rule = nothing to boost the range of. Sort of like how the Force psychic power gives all weapons in the unit with the Force rule ID. No force rule on the weapon = no effect from the Force power.
Don't get me wrong, Synaptic Broodlords would be a cool throwback to 4th Edition, but I just don't think I could follow through with that argument.
Still, I'm happy that Pinning has made units a little easier to assault so Broodlords were passively buffed a little (which is nice, since the Broodlord Hunting Pack can be pretty lethal anyway).
Consider that psychic phase is after movement as well - that gives the brood time to get into position before throwing out morale checks.
Have the book in front of me. Basically the standard is that you are using GW premade terrain. Each terrain piece either has rules found in battlefield terrain pg 109...like rubble grants a 4+ if your model is in it... Or has a preset datasheet on pg 185. For example, forests are called Twisted Copses and provide a 5+ cover save if your model is in it. If you use custom terrain you must design a dataslate for it. Ruins likewise grant 4+ if you are just in it. So no area terrain is not gone...it just goes by different names now.
wyomingfox wrote: Have the book in front of me. Basically the standard is that you are using GW premade terrain. Each terrain piece either has rules found in battlefield terrain pg 109...like rubble grants a 4+ if your model is in it... Or has a preset datasheet on pg 185. For example, forests are called Twisted Copses and provide a 5+ cover save if your model is in it. If you use custom terrain you must design a dataslate for it. Ruins likewise grant 4+ if you are just in it. So no area terrain is not gone...it just goes by different names now.
I'm guessing this is a little bit of over reaction to the "can't trademark ordinary things" outcome. Now they can toss (tm) on area terrain...
As far as I can tell, however, what is gone is the cover save for simply being in area terrain. Let GW call it whatever they want - I didn't see a reference that allowed a cover save to be taken unless the model is actually 25% obscured or more. Especially notable is that FMC seem to be out of luck entirely for cover in terrain (again unless 25% obscured). I'll have to read more thoroughly, as I didn't look at the book for that long, but I'd love to hear what those of you who have read (or now own) the book think about this. I sure would like to keep that 3+ cover on my FMCs when near enough to a Venomthrope.
On a completely different note, I just want to say that it is possible to sand, wash, assemble, base and prime a hierophant in a single day (less than 6 hours) if you skip a few bells and whistles (some of the tiny tiny spikes). Looking forward to using it in an apoc game tomorrow (thank goodness for lax metas where it doesn't need to be painted fully, especially because I suck at painting!)
My tyranid carnivorous forests warlord trait is even more useless now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: As far as I can tell, however, what is gone is the cover save for simply being in area terrain. Let GW call it whatever they want - I didn't see a reference that allowed a cover save to be taken unless the model is actually 25% obscured or more. Especially notable is that FMC seem to be out of luck entirely for cover in terrain (again unless 25% obscured). I'll have to read more thoroughly, as I didn't look at the book for that long, but I'd love to hear what those of you who have read (or now own) the book think about this. I sure would like to keep that 3+ cover on my FMCs when near enough to a Venomthrope.
On a completely different note, I just want to say that it is possible to sand, wash, assemble, base and prime a hierophant in a single day (less than 6 hours) if you skip a few bells and whistles (some of the tiny tiny spikes). Looking forward to using it in an apoc game tomorrow (thank goodness for lax metas where it doesn't need to be painted fully, especially because I suck at painting!)
The description for ruins and craters specifically mention being in them grants a save regardless if the model is obscured.
Yeah craters and ruins still need only you to be there. Except for vehicles, even in ruins they need effective cover.
Gone is GtG for 3+, you now go to 4+ both in craters and forests.
Sad thing i'm noticing is that i will no longer run Endless swarm and turn back to simple non respawning swarm. Formations are a separate Detachment so they don't get Objective secured, kinda defeating the purpose of getting so many troops. The free double FOC though is a nice boon, i can split my venoms in 3 different squads and still got 2 free elite slots.
Totals up to 1000 points exactly. My local area prefers smaller, faster games (after work hours largely), so this should allow me to test out some of our better looking units.
I was really torn between Command and Strategic Warlord Traits, but ended up going for Strategic. There is nothing bad for Tyranids on that table, and Master of Ambush (Warlord + 3 units have Infiltrate) is something I'm really keen to try (Infiltrating Tervigons?!).
It's not a very assault-based list, but one thing at a time.
Khaine's Wrath wrote: How are you going to deal with being punched in the face by a dreadnought now?
In my list, I have the following to handle melee walkers:
12 tl S6 shots from the Tyrant
Egrubs on the Tyrant
Egrubs on the Tervigon
Smash on the Tervigon
Bioplasmic Cannon (streams seem like the better option there)
The Tervigon is actually pretty dangerous to a melee walker, especially if she is in cover.
In completely unrelated news, has anyone considered the following for an Unbound list?
Winged Tyrant
2x tl Devourers, Egrubs
240
Winged Tyrant
2x tl Devourers, Egrubs
Crone
155
Crone
155
142 Spore Mines (23 cluusters of 6, 1 cluster of 4)
710
Khaine's Wrath wrote: How are you going to deal with being punched in the face by a dreadnought now?
In my list, I have the following to handle melee walkers:
12 tl S6 shots from the Tyrant
Egrubs on the Tyrant
Egrubs on the Tervigon
Smash on the Tervigon
Bioplasmic Cannon (streams seem like the better option there)
The Tervigon is actually pretty dangerous to a melee walker, especially if she is in cover.
In completely unrelated news, has anyone considered the following for an Unbound list?
Winged Tyrant
2x tl Devourers, Egrubs
240
Winged Tyrant
2x tl Devourers, Egrubs
Crone
155
Crone
155
142 Spore Mines (23 cluusters of 6, 1 cluster of 4)
710
1500 total
Boom.
Since spore mines are never scoring I don't see that list winning much of anything.
Something I just noticed while reviewing the USR list... Blind has been changed to be like grounding tests - a single init test made at the end of the phase regardless of how many Blind attacks there were. That means Gargoyles can't benefit from it on the turn they attack, and there's a good chance of most units passing the single test rather than having to pass multiple tests like before.
Updating my Nids 7E overview:
~General~
[BUFF] The FOC is just a formality now, opening up use of lots more Elite / HS slots.
[BUFF] Rippers are now super-scoring. Yay.
[BUFF] We can take allies! (just). Gentlemen, commence the Genestealer cults...
[BUFF] Grounding tests are much more reliable. Failed tests also mean you can't be blown apart with every weapon on the board, and are only vulnerable to being charged.
[NERF] Vector strikes do much less damage to ground and slightly less to air, but gained AP2 making them better for beating TEQs.
[NERF] No more area terrain cover.
[NERF] No more attaching Primes to Carnifex broods.
[NERF] Nids can't deal with AV13+ reliably without Lords of War, or tons of Zoanthropes. We're really going to struggle with super-scoring Land Raiders.
~Psychic~
[BUFF] All Tyranid psykers get Dominion in addition to their normal rolls, which is helpful.
[BUFF] We generally get a decent amount of warp charge thanks to Tyrants, and can spam cheap Zoanthrope broods for more
[BUFF] Zoanthrope broods can use 2 powers per turn now
[BUFF] Warp Blast/Lance can be used in addition to other shooting attacks
[NERF] Psychic tests on the whole are less reliable than the old Ld10 tests.
~Assault~
[BUFF] Charges are more reliable thanks to nearly everything gribbly having Move Through Cover.
[BUFF] Go To Ground now prevents Overwatch fire, helping Pinning weapons like Biovores, Barbed Stranglers and The Horror
[NERF] Smash took a major nerf. Crushing Claw Fexes are the best option for killing heavy armour in melee (if you can get them there alive).
[NERF] Poison now requires a higher strength for a re-roll, rather than equal to toughness.
[NERF] FMCs can't assault on the turn they change flight mode, but can still assault after failing a grounding test.
[NERF] Blind has been changed to be like grounding tests - a single init test made at the end of the phase regardless of how many Blind attacks there were.
~Shooting~
[NERF] Our only weapon able to one-shot AV13+ at range is Warp Lance - HVCs effectively had their damage roll penalty restored and won't cut it anymore.
~Lords of War~
[BUFF] D-weapons were pretty majorly toned down. Hierophants have a better chance of surviving a Revenant or Warhound now. Don't forget Venomthropes for them - or better yet, use the transport upgrade to carry them around with a huge radius. Hierodules will still evaporate on turn 1 because they're overpriced garbage.
[BUFF] Harridans are the shiznit. Seriously. With the grounding test change there are very few skyfire weapons that can scratch them. Harridans are our only serious counter to anything Knight-sized and larger, so if you play against super-heavies you should really acquire one.
Xyptc wrote: I was really torn between Command and Strategic Warlord Traits, but ended up going for Strategic. There is nothing bad for Tyranids on that table, and Master of Ambush (Warlord + 3 units have Infiltrate) is something I'm really keen to try (Infiltrating Tervigons?!).
When Rolling warlord traits it seems like Master of Ambush is so insanely powerful for Tyranids. I plan to Roll on strategic, and reroll anything that isn't master of Ambush. If I get it, I'm probably going to win that game. If I fail to get it, I probably still have something that is a little useful.
It single-handedly makes Carnifexes a much more viable unit. It fixes the problem of Tyranids having slow units with short ranges. Hypothetically, if you got Master of Ambush what 3 units would you infiltrate. Dakka-fexes are obvious. Do you bring along Zoenthropes? Flyrants? a Venomthrope to support the infiltrators? Tyrannofex? Tervigon? DevilGaunts?
Is there still a reason to take a TFex? It almost feels like the inability of a Tfex to pop a rhino makes me feel like Carnifexes are much more viable. Is every list going to be including 4 Carnifexes?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xttz wrote: [BUFF] The FOC is just a formality now, opening up use of lots more Elite / HS slots.
This is more a nerf to the game than a buff to any specific army. Nerf to balance. Nerf to Tactics. Nerf to fun. I don't think we should count it as a buff to Tyranids.
xttz wrote: [BUFF] Warp Blast/Lance can be used in addition to other shooting attacks
Is it confirmed that witchfires don't count as firing a weapon. Vector Strike still does. I read the book last night, but didn't notice that change.
Xyptc wrote: I was really torn between Command and Strategic Warlord Traits, but ended up going for Strategic. There is nothing bad for Tyranids on that table, and Master of Ambush (Warlord + 3 units have Infiltrate) is something I'm really keen to try (Infiltrating Tervigons?!).
When Rolling warlord traits it seems like Master of Ambush is so insanely powerful for Tyranids. I plan to Roll on strategic, and reroll anything that isn't master of Ambush. If I get it, I'm probably going to win that game. If I fail to get it, I probably still have something that is a little useful.
It single-handedly makes Carnifexes a much more viable unit. It fixes the problem of Tyranids having slow units with short ranges. Hypothetically, if you got Master of Ambush what 3 units would you infiltrate. Dakka-fexes are obvious. Do you bring along Zoenthropes? Flyrants? a Venomthrope to support the infiltrators? Tyrannofex? Tervigon? DevilGaunts?
Is there still a reason to take a TFex? It almost feels like the inability of a Tfex to pop a rhino makes me feel like Carnifexes are much more viable. Is every list going to be including 4 Carnifexes?
The possibilities are endless. Anything with short-ranged firepower is golden, and your Warlord comes too. I'm running a Living Artillery Node, and the whole thing could basically be set up anywhere on the board to maximum effect. You could occupy a large ruin with a Venomthrope and a couple of units of Devilgaunts. Deposit a Wrecker Node scarily close to a parking lot. Heck, you can infiltrate Hive Crones for maximum VS carnage, and set up Hive Guard to compensate for the terrible range on Shock Cannons.
It's not guaranteed to happen every game, but you have two shots at getting it per game.
On the Tyrannofex, I stopped using Rupture Cannons long ago (although the 3+ Tyrannofex formation from the Valedor book has given me the bizarre urge to get five of them and line them up...). Rather, I run one with an Acid Spray and some sort of Thorax weapon, and march it up the middle of the battlefield. With mobile cover, a 2+ save and ideally Catalyst it is an absolute brick, which harasses infantry and has smashed the odd vehicle. I use it as area denial, and that's about it. A real shame that the Rupture Cannon's anti-tank abilities were nerfed even more, but to be honest you don't see many people running a Rupturefex for anti-tank anyway so perhaps we haven't lost much in a practical sense.
Xyptc wrote: On the Tyrannofex, I stopped using Rupture Cannons long ago (although the 3+ Tyrannofex formation from the Valedor book has given me the bizarre urge to get five of them and line them up...). Rather, I run one with an Acid Spray and some sort of Thorax weapon, and march it up the middle of the battlefield. With mobile cover, a 2+ save and ideally Catalyst it is an absolute brick, which harasses infantry and has smashed the odd vehicle. I use it as area denial, and that's about it. A real shame that the Rupture Cannon's anti-tank abilities were nerfed even more, but to be honest you don't see many people running a Rupturefex for anti-tank anyway so perhaps we haven't lost much in a practical sense.
I don't know if you notice, but a TFex now only has about a 30% chance of killing rhino in assault. 11-11-10.
Hammer of Wrath is now against the facing you charge, so front. 1/3 chance of take a HP. 0% chance of explodes.
4 Attacks on the charge hit on 3s. so 2.67 hits. Wound on a 4+. So 1.33 wounds. About a 14.81% chance of explodes. A total of 1.66 HP from a TFex charging a Rhino.
Ok, this is a brief summary of how the Psychic phase has changed for the Tyranids.
Let's take as an example my 6th Ed. Tyranid list. Back then (that sounds so strange since bugs are still relatively new), this is what I ran (in terms of psykers):
2x Flyrants
1x Zoanthrope
1x Tervigon
Let's say, for example, I have the following powers:
Nowadays, in order to cast a power, you need to succeed on a 4+ per warp charge of the power. Nowadays, we also get a number of warp charges equal to the total of your psyker levels +1D6. That is your Warp Charge pool of dice and you can allocate any number of dice to a particular power. Let's look at a best-case scenario. We roll a 6 to see how many warp charges we have, so now we have a total of 13 warp charges (for this particular psychic phase).
In order to cast a Warp Charge 1 power, you need at least 1 success. If you use just 1 dice to cast the power, you only have a 50% chance for success. If you throw 2 dice, now you have a 75% chance of casting the power. With the previous version of the rulebook, you would succeed in casting the power on a successful LD test. That means you had a 83% chance for success. So in order to have as reliable a chance as the previous edition, you really need to use 3 dice to cast your power (88% chance for success). So let's assume we use 3 dice on average to try to cast our powers.
So Flyrant #1 uses 3 dice to cast Catalyst. There are 10 warp charge dice remaining.
Zoanthrope uses another 3 dice to cast Catalyst. 7 dice left.
Tervigon then casts Dominion to give Synapse to all the nearby gribblies. 4 dice left.
Now it is Flyrant #2's turn. He wants to cast Warp Blast to take out a nearby land raider. However, with only 4 dice left, he's only got a 75% chance to cast the Warp Charge 2 Warp Blast. He needs 6 dice to actually be able to cast it as reliably as before. In the previous edition, all the tyranid psykers would have an equal chance to cast his powers.
I haven't even factored in the chances for the opponents to try to Deny your power. Now, any power can be denied, including Blessings. Also, psychic-heavy armies have a greater chance to deny due to the fact that they will have a lot dice to try to deny with (the number of Deny dice they get is determined exactly the same as how many dice they get to cast psychic powers).
Finally, the more dice you use, the greater your chances are of suffering Perils. Anytime you roll double-6's, you Peril so the more dice you use to cast a power, the greater the chance of hurting yourself (or even killing yourself).
So overall, the casting of psychic powers have become more unreliable than in previous editions. It actually becomes harder to cast them, easier for the opponent to Deny (assuming your opponent is psychic-heavy as well) and the chances of suffering Perils is greater.
Nevertheless, you do need psykers in your army. Otherwise, it becomes much harder to stop your opponent from doing whatever he wants to you in his Psychic phase, especially if your opponent is taking a strongly-psychic army.
You're going to have to if you don't bring enough shooting, especially since those rhinos are scoring and can't be contested except by other Objectives Secured troops.
You're going to have to if you don't bring enough shooting, especially since those rhinos are scoring and can't be contested except by other Objectives Secured troops.
I just can't remember the last time my shooting failed to tear open a cardboard armored rhino.
I can't see this being a real problem unless people switch back to 5th edition style armies with 6-10 rhinos.
jy2 wrote: Ok, this is a brief summary of how the Psychic phase has changed for the Tyranids.
Let's take as an example my 6th Ed. Tyranid list. Back then (that sounds so strange since bugs are still relatively new), this is what I ran (in terms of psykers):
2x Flyrants
1x Zoanthrope
1x Tervigon
Let's say, for example, I have the following powers:
Nowadays, in order to cast a power, you need to succeed on a 4+ per warp charge of the power. Nowadays, we also get a number of warp charges equal to the total of your psyker levels +1D6. That is your Warp Charge pool of dice and you can allocate any number of dice to a particular power. Let's look at a best-case scenario. We roll a 6 to see how many warp charges we have, so now we have a total of 13 warp charges (for this particular psychic phase).
In order to cast a Warp Charge 1 power, you need at least 1 success. If you use just 1 dice to cast the power, you only have a 50% chance for success. If you throw 2 dice, now you have a 75% chance of casting the power. With the previous version of the rulebook, you would succeed in casting the power on a successful LD test. That means you had a 83% chance for success. So in order to have as reliable a chance as the previous edition, you really need to use 3 dice to cast your power (88% chance for success). So let's assume we use 3 dice on average to try to cast our powers.
So Flyrant #1 uses 3 dice to cast Catalyst. There are 10 warp charge dice remaining.
Zoanthrope uses another 3 dice to cast Catalyst. 7 dice left.
Tervigon then casts Dominion to give Synapse to all the nearby gribblies. 4 dice left.
Now it is Flyrant #2's turn. He wants to cast Warp Blast to take out a nearby land raider. However, with only 4 dice left, he's only got a 75% chance to cast the Warp Charge 2 Warp Blast. He needs 6 dice to actually be able to cast it as reliably as before. In the previous edition, all the tyranid psykers would have an equal chance to cast his powers.
I haven't even factored in the chances for the opponents to try to Deny your power. Now, any power can be denied, including Blessings. Also, psychic-heavy armies have a greater chance to deny due to the fact that they will have a lot dice to try to deny with (the number of Deny dice they get is determined exactly the same as how many dice they get to cast psychic powers).
Finally, the more dice you use, the greater your chances are of suffering Perils. Anytime you roll double-6's, you Peril so the more dice you use to cast a power, the greater the chance of hurting yourself (or even killing yourself).
So overall, the casting of psychic powers have become more unreliable than in previous editions. It actually becomes harder to cast them, easier for the opponent to Deny (assuming your opponent is psychic-heavy as well) and the chances of suffering Perils is greater.
Nevertheless, you do need psykers in your army. Otherwise, it becomes much harder to stop your opponent from doing whatever he wants to you in his Psychic phase, especially if your opponent is taking a strongly-psychic army.
Nice summary
One thought that strikes me about our use of psychic abilities is that we a) have lots of psykers, b) have Dominion on everything as a bonus and c) all but one of our (pretty decent) powers are only WC1, which reminds me of older versions of Vampire Counts in WHFB, which used to have a similar looking set of attributes, and were able to roll over their Magic phase by simply casting lots and lots of cheap powers with only 1 dice. Sure, half of them fail, but half of them succeed and you have loads of psychic powers to try. It is also completely risk free; you will never get a double six.
In your scenario above jy2, you listed two Tyrants, a Tervigon and a Zoanthrope. That's 11 psychic powers in total, with between 8 and 13 casting dice to play with. Start by trying to cast Dominion on everything with 1 dice each. One, maybe two successes and boosted Synapse range. That can be game changing in itself, and your opponent may be tempted to commit dice to stop you. Keep cyclic through cheap powers, and maybe save a three dice for something really important at the end (Paroxysm on a key target, Psychic Scream in the middle of their army, Onslaught for those Dakkafexes). We (and Daemons at least) can spam our way through the psychic phase to force our opponents to make tough choices about where to spend their Deny dice.
On Shadow in the Warp
SitW (currently) has no effect on our denial of enemy powers. We do (usually) bring a number of psykers, so we can still shut our enemy down the old fashioned way (sheer number of dice thrown at them) though. Plus, some of the Perils results are a whole lot worse if you fail a Leadership tests, so enemies that Perils within SitW range are a bit more likely to die outright (and given that we have a lot of dice to Deny with, they may be inclined to throw more dice than necessary, increasing their Perils chance).
I wonder what (if anything) the FAQ will do to SitW? +1 to Deny the Witch if within SitW range? I'd be happy with that.
You're going to have to if you don't bring enough shooting, especially since those rhinos are scoring and can't be contested except by other Objectives Secured troops.
I just can't remember the last time my shooting failed to tear open a cardboard armored rhino.
I can't see this being a real problem unless people switch back to 5th edition style armies with 6-10 rhinos.
Believe me, you are going to see the return of rhino-spam. 60 marines in 6 rhinos. That's 18 Objectives Secured scoring units! That's no joke. You can't contest them unless you bring enough Bound troops as well. The only thing you can do is to try to kill them all. Good luck with that.
One thought that strikes me about our use of psychic abilities is that we a) have lots of psykers, b) have Dominion on everything as a bonus and c) all but one of our (pretty decent) powers are only WC1, which reminds me of older versions of Vampire Counts in WHFB, which used to have a similar looking set of attributes, and were able to roll over their Magic phase by simply casting lots and lots of cheap powers with only 1 dice. Sure, half of them fail, but half of them succeed and you have loads of psychic powers to try. It is also completely risk free; you will never get a double six.
In your scenario above jy2, you listed two Tyrants, a Tervigon and a Zoanthrope. That's 11 psychic powers in total, with between 8 and 13 casting dice to play with. Start by trying to cast Dominion on everything with 1 dice each. One, maybe two successes and boosted Synapse range. That can be game changing in itself, and your opponent may be tempted to commit dice to stop you. Keep cyclic through cheap powers, and maybe save a three dice for something really important at the end (Paroxysm on a key target, Psychic Scream in the middle of their army, Onslaught for those Dakkafexes). We (and Daemons at least) can spam our way through the psychic phase to force our opponents to make tough choices about where to spend their Deny dice.
On Shadow in the Warp
SitW (currently) has no effect on our denial of enemy powers. We do (usually) bring a number of psykers, so we can still shut our enemy down the old fashioned way (sheer number of dice thrown at them) though. Plus, some of the Perils results are a whole lot worse if you fail a Leadership tests, so enemies that Perils within SitW range are a bit more likely to die outright (and given that we have a lot of dice to Deny with, they may be inclined to throw more dice than necessary, increasing their Perils chance).
I wonder what (if anything) the FAQ will do to SitW? +1 to Deny the Witch if within SitW range? I'd be happy with that.
That is definitely a viable strategy. Casting powers like Dominion is almost like freebies as your opponent probably wouldn't want to Deny them. HOWEVER, there is still a 50% chance for failure and every time you cast a power like that, you are diluting your Warp pool, thus making it harder to cast some of the more important powers. Now that's not as bad if you deliberately spam psykers just to increase your Warp pool (i.e. like running 3x1 zoanthropes), but there is a point where running too many psykers gets to be redundant as well as to hurt the overall army chemistry. Support units are good. Just be careful not to overdo it.
As for Shadows, currently as per RAW, it does not affect psychic powers other than when a caster suffers a Perils and have to take a LD test because of that. But hopefully, it will get FAQ'd to something a little more useful.
pinecone77 wrote: I posted this elsewhere, but I want everybody to see it...
I hear that the Strategic Warlord Traits has a "Master of Ambush" trait.
It allows a Warlord to Outflank, and bring along up to Three Units.
So I could Outflank a walking Warlord, a unit of Guard, A Veno Brood, and a big Brood of Gaunts.... (or a Tyranofex or two )
Or possably a whole (small) Formation? Like say a Wrecker Node. That could totally wreck a cunning plan!
If you run Battle forged, you get a re-roll on Warlord Traits, so that is 1/3 of the time. This could be a very nice thing.
That sounds delicious. That sounds like a potential chance to outflank with a Flyrant and some Dakkafex buddies and watching my opponent's face as suddenly the rear armour of everything becomes easy pickings.
tag8833 wrote: Why would you outflank when you can infiltrate? Take along the venom and infiltrate into ruins. Carnifexes have just solved their mobility problems.
I play 2 games today, and fished for that warlord trait both times. Unfortunately I didn't roll it even with rerolls.
tag8833 wrote: Why would you outflank when you can infiltrate? Take along the venom and infiltrate into ruins. Carnifexes have just solved their mobility problems.
I play 2 games today, and fished for that warlord trait both times. Unfortunately I didn't roll it even with rerolls.
Largely because it shields a few of the monsters from firepower for a good few turns and gets them that much closer. I suppose a lot depends on objectives as well. Welp, we shall see come Wednesday when I get some money in and can buy a good few things.
I foolishly bought two Tyranid flyer kits before the new edition was out and now I am not sure what to build out of them. Are two Hive Crones still worth taking in a meta with few flyers? Vector Strike seems to be terribly nerfed.
I foolishly bought two Tyranid flyer kits before the new edition was out and now I am not sure what to build out of them. Are two Hive Crones still worth taking in a meta with few flyers? Vector Strike seems to be terribly nerfed.
Crones still look great to me.
They have taken a bit of a nerf to their VS against ground targets. In other ways, the Crone has improved though.
- Much harder to ground
- Able to hit passengers in open-topped transports with the Drool Cannon (and everything that uses open-topped transports is S6/AP4 fodder by profile, so this is pretty good actually).
- Able to score on the last turn if you remember to Glide
- Jink is a 4+, and you can Jink regardless of Glide/Swoop
I actually think the Harpy is a bit worse off. Jinking stops it using almost all of its weapons (Snap Shots only), and bizarrely a Harpy was actually a very good unit to throw into an assault alongside something more dangerous (Sonic Scream is better than you think). A Harpy isn't awful though, and as far as being a gunboat goes it has its strengths. Since Exploding vehicles is something we are once again going to struggle with, a tl Venom Cannon is not a bad way of stripping a Hull Point off (and hey, maybe even getting Weapon Destroyed etc, always helpful).
I would build one of each. You need two Harpies if you ever intend to run Skyblight anyway, so I'd learn to use it.
Troops is an area where we traditionaly dominate. Add Objective secured, and Bugs get even better! Heck infiltrating Genestealers might even start making sense again. 
(and Tervigons might be worth their point cost 
)
I think this will improve Tyranids chances to take the blue ribbon. 
This could be a very nice thing. 