Sinful Hero wrote: Sorry to keep stirring the pot, but Is the spudded Dimachaeron the best TAC choice? It enters play with no board impact other than forcing your opponent to deal with it. On the other hand a spudded Devilfex immediately impacts the board(12 S6 shots), and also forces your opponent to deal with it. It just seems to me to be more about making an assault TMC work than using the best TAC choices.
Forcing your opponent to deal with it is not an insubstantial consequence for your opponent. What many people (Tyranid players included) don't always remember is just how good our Flyrants are. Every bullet taken away from them is a huge win, especially because although they fly and are relatively tough, it doesn't take that many wounds to put them down. A 3+ is only a 3+, and sometimes you only get 4+ jink. Tyrants don't have as many wounds as we wish, but they can single-handedly deal with the vast majority of units in the game.
I think you and Sinful agree 100% on this. He is concerned that for however many turns the pod is in reserves, all of the shooting gets directed at the flyrants. It actually increases the fire they take rather than decreasing it.
luke1705 wrote: Furthermore, the Dimachaerons are especially scary because they are pretty durable. They may very well be able to toe into cover when they come in, giving a 4++, more or less, because most things that ignore cover aren't also AP 3. Even then, getting through 6 T6 wounds in a single turn (12 if there are 2 of them) is no small task for most armies. And if they can't kill them, let me tell you - the do WORK. No other unit in the Tyranid army (and I would suggest most in the game) hit as hard as the Dimachaeron when it gets there. Previously, the argument had always been, "well yeah it wrecks face when it gets there but it'll never get there!" Now that argument is gone and we're left with a very good unit that won't mishap when it scatters, leaving a lot of room for scatter error (and more risky scatter placement). That's not to say that a Dakkafex in a pod isn't a good idea as well - for 50 points less, one could say that you're getting a bargain. You lose most of the potency in assault in exchange for a durable gun platform. The two units do completely different things and could even be used in tandem with each other to good effect. I think they're both good options - I just like building my list around the Dimachaeron and covering up for his weaknesses more. But that's a playstyle preference, not a tactical one
The armies that can't deal with it drop podding in, also probably can't deal with it walking across the board. The problem is, those armies aren't usually a challenge for us. The armies we struggle with (Tau, Eldar) can drop an MC on the turn it drop pods in without much problem. It really comes down to your play style, and the sort of missions you are doing. If you play in an aggressive fashion, you want that Dimacharon walking across the board, and you are hoping for a turn 2 charge. If you play more passively, keeping him off the board is a godsend, and being able to choose where he lands is a powerful bonus. But if you are an aggressive player you can still appreciate the dakkafex coming via drop pod, because he contributes immediately.
Before you all go gaga over drop podding consider the Trygon Prime. The Trygon Prime is just as tough as the Dimacharon. He is pretty good in assault. He deepstrikes without mishapping, and he shoots 12 S5 AP5 shots. Plus he is Synapse. All that for 45 points less than a Dima in a Pod or 5 points more than a Dakkafex in a pod, and he is overpriced and nobody takes him. So when you theory craft a pod list, ask yourself, how is my pod and contents better than a Trygon Prime? What Targets is it going to deal with that a Trygon Prime won't?
You're 100% right about the fire being directed at the Tyrants while the pods are in reserves. However, you're looking at 1 turn at best (and in my list with Comms relay, 2 at worst - barring some spectacularly bad luck). The reason why I prefer this is because you can mitigate a lot of firepower directed at the tyrants if you need to. Most alpha strikes don't have the range to do what they need to if you deploy second since you can deploy kitty-corner and use your mobility to simply not care in subsequent turns. Also, there are a decent amount of armies with a very limited alpha strike turn 1 (hey there Necrons). You can take advantage of that, as well as the alternate deployment options (long ways and vanguard strike, anyone?) to maximize your mobility advantage, as well as your early game weaknesses. The downside is you are essentially conceding some early - game maelstrom points if you go too far down this particular rabbit hole
To address what the pod brings, in the strictest competitive sense, I don't know that it will make or break tournament lists. However, something that you cannot discount when comparing it to a Trygon prime is that the pod itself matters. Not just the shooting (which with those blasts is pretty ridiculous, as it negates much of the low BS of the pod). But it can move, score objectives, contest non-objective: secured objectives, and generally be a huge nuisance. Does losing objective: secured balance out by giving you tactical deployment options as well as actually being able to move once you land? Eh, I think I would have just preferred objective: secured, but I'll take it. Maybe it's just the Maleceptor, but I think most players are probably overreacting in a positive way because of how intensely disappointing that last kit was. And because it makes a lot of units much more fieldable, at least casually to semi-competitively.
The other difference between the Trygon and the Dimachaeron has been pretty hashed out - it's so much better in close combat. It's like sending Dante up against Abaddon - you'd think it should be close, but it's not. The Dakkafex has much better shooting and a higher strength in close combat, good vs Eldar wraith constructs and the tanks that a Trygon fails to handle due to the nerfs to smash. I'm not saying that I wouldn't take a Trygon generally (although I personally would do Raveners because I like the model more) - just that I think what it does can be done better by other, more specialized units. It does a number of things sort of well, but I prefer to have units with a more clear-cut role that they are very good at and cover up for their weaknesses with synergy, force-multiplication, and other units that excel at their weaknesses (at least that's the plan. Sometimes I just make a list that looks like fun to play)
BlaxicanX wrote: jy2, do you know off-hand where the rules are for needing a model on the board at the end of each round?
Sure.
p. 133 - Sudden Death Victory
"If at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield his opponent automatically wins."
Awesome, thank you.
By "game turn"do they basically mean rounds? i.e. If I kill all my opponents models at the top of turn 5, he still has all of his turn at the bottom of turn 5 to get models on the board?
Yes, that is correct. 1 Game turn = 2 Player turns. The person going 2nd still has a chance to get his reserves in if the player going 1st wipes out all of Player 2's units on the table.
You're 100% right about the fire being directed at the Tyrants while the pods are in reserves. However, you're looking at 1 turn at best (and in my list with Comms relay, 2 at worst - barring some spectacularly bad luck). The reason why I prefer this is because you can mitigate a lot of firepower directed at the tyrants if you need to. Most alpha strikes don't have the range to do what they need to if you deploy second since you can deploy kitty-corner and use your mobility to simply not care in subsequent turns. Also, there are a decent amount of armies with a very limited alpha strike turn 1 (hey there Necrons). You can take advantage of that, as well as the alternate deployment options (long ways and vanguard strike, anyone?) to maximize your mobility advantage, as well as your early game weaknesses. The downside is you are essentially conceding some early - game maelstrom points if you go too far down this particular rabbit hole
To address what the pod brings, in the strictest competitive sense, I don't know that it will make or break tournament lists. However, something that you cannot discount when comparing it to a Trygon prime is that the pod itself matters. Not just the shooting (which with those blasts is pretty ridiculous, as it negates much of the low BS of the pod). But it can move, score objectives, contest non-objective: secured objectives, and generally be a huge nuisance. Does losing objective: secured balance out by giving you tactical deployment options as well as actually being able to move once you land? Eh, I think I would have just preferred objective: secured, but I'll take it. Maybe it's just the Maleceptor, but I think most players are probably overreacting in a positive way because of how intensely disappointing that last kit was. And because it makes a lot of units much more fieldable, at least casually to semi-competitively.
The other difference between the Trygon and the Dimachaeron has been pretty hashed out - it's so much better in close combat. It's like sending Dante up against Abaddon - you'd think it should be close, but it's not. The Dakkafex has much better shooting and a higher strength in close combat, good vs Eldar wraith constructs and the tanks that a Trygon fails to handle due to the nerfs to smash. I'm not saying that I wouldn't take a Trygon generally (although I personally would do Raveners because I like the model more) - just that I think what it does can be done better by other, more specialized units. It does a number of things sort of well, but I prefer to have units with a more clear-cut role that they are very good at and cover up for their weaknesses with synergy, force-multiplication, and other units that excel at their weaknesses (at least that's the plan. Sometimes I just make a list that looks like fun to play)
I agree completely. I am not sold a fan of the Dimacharon, because its contributions are so one-dimensional, and there is no point in rehashing my concerns about it, but it is definitely better in close combat than a Trygon, especially against things like Wraith Knights.
We now have enough points to take a Harridan with Skyblight at 1850
Primary CAD:
Flyrant w/Devs, EGrubs - 240
Mucolid - 15
Mucolid - 15
1850 on the nose. How about that. Minimum CAD for the win
It's crazy that Mucolid is troop. I must spend at least 110 points on troops to take one more CAD for SM. For Tyranids, it's only 30. This 30 points mean two S8 AP3 big blast. How can GW do this to us?
Anyway, you can take eight Flyrants with eight Mucolids in 2000pts game now.
We now have enough points to take a Harridan with Skyblight at 1850
Primary CAD:
Flyrant w/Devs, EGrubs - 240
Mucolid - 15
Mucolid - 15
1850 on the nose. How about that. Minimum CAD for the win
It's crazy that Mucolid is troop. I must spend at least 110 points on troops to take one more CAD for SM. For Tyranids, it's only 30. This 30 points mean two S8 AP3 big blast. How can GW do this to us?
Anyway, you can take eight Flyrants with eight Mucolids in 2000pts game now.
I'll bet in the same way that Tourney's are ruling against the 10 point DEHQ, they will rule against the 30 Point Tyranid Troop.
We now have enough points to take a Harridan with Skyblight at 1850
Primary CAD:
Flyrant w/Devs, EGrubs - 240
Mucolid - 15
Mucolid - 15
1850 on the nose. How about that. Minimum CAD for the win
It's crazy that Mucolid is troop. I must spend at least 110 points on troops to take one more CAD for SM. For Tyranids, it's only 30. This 30 points mean two S8 AP3 big blast. How can GW do this to us?
Anyway, you can take eight Flyrants with eight Mucolids in 2000pts game now.
I'll bet in the same way that Tourney's are ruling against the 10 point DEHQ, they will rule against the 30 Point Tyranid Troop.
That's a debatable rules dispute which is obviously not intended, and even if it was legally may not actually work, and makes sense to be ruled out. If they rule against the spore its just prejudice
We now have enough points to take a Harridan with Skyblight at 1850
Primary CAD:
Flyrant w/Devs, EGrubs - 240
Mucolid - 15
Mucolid - 15
1850 on the nose. How about that. Minimum CAD for the win
It's crazy that Mucolid is troop. I must spend at least 110 points on troops to take one more CAD for SM. For Tyranids, it's only 30. This 30 points mean two S8 AP3 big blast. How can GW do this to us?
Anyway, you can take eight Flyrants with eight Mucolids in 2000pts game now.
I'll bet in the same way that Tourney's are ruling against the 10 point DEHQ, they will rule against the 30 Point Tyranid Troop.
If they did that why not ban Wave Serpants too? Or Riptides?
Or any of the other stuff that is considered brokenly good.
We now have enough points to take a Harridan with Skyblight at 1850
Primary CAD:
Flyrant w/Devs, EGrubs - 240
Mucolid - 15
Mucolid - 15
1850 on the nose. How about that. Minimum CAD for the win
It's crazy that Mucolid is troop. I must spend at least 110 points on troops to take one more CAD for SM. For Tyranids, it's only 30. This 30 points mean two S8 AP3 big blast. How can GW do this to us?
Anyway, you can take eight Flyrants with eight Mucolids in 2000pts game now.
I'll bet in the same way that Tourney's are ruling against the 10 point DEHQ, they will rule against the 30 Point Tyranid Troop.
If they did that why not ban Wave Serpants too? Or Riptides?
Or any of the other stuff that is considered brokenly good.
Considering Mucolids can't score, and move 3" a turn, I doubt gimping yourself on Objective Secured or scoring units could be considered broken. It's more of a big trade off.
luke1705 wrote: As for the spore mines, it's well-documented that Biovores often miss when they're not in LAN. What's less-documented is that if you want to create more spore blockades (with somewhat reasonable placement), you don't really need this new thing either. Just take Biovores with LAN. Whenever you miss, great. If you hit, re-roll it (you are twin-linked, after all) so that you have another chance to miss. Or, you could adapt your tactics and just hit stuff if you want
Not that it really matters (because who wants to reroll hits?) but you can't do the underlined.
Spoiler:
Twin-linked Blast Weapons
If the scatter dice does not roll a hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast weapon. If you choose to do so, you must re-roll both the 2D6 and the scatter dice.
Unless you meant if you roll an arrow but still hit a unit... meh. Still worth pointing out.
Sinful Hero wrote: Considering Mucolids can't score, and move 3" a turn, I doubt gimping yourself on Objective Secured or scoring units could be considered broken. It's more of a big trade off.
It allows you to get to 7 Flyrants pretty easy in unlimited CAD.
luke1705 wrote: As for the spore mines, it's well-documented that Biovores often miss when they're not in LAN. What's less-documented is that if you want to create more spore blockades (with somewhat reasonable placement), you don't really need this new thing either. Just take Biovores with LAN. Whenever you miss, great. If you hit, re-roll it (you are twin-linked, after all) so that you have another chance to miss. Or, you could adapt your tactics and just hit stuff if you want
Not that it really matters (because who wants to reroll hits?) but you can't do the underlined.
Spoiler:
Twin-linked Blast Weapons
If the scatter dice does not roll a hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast weapon. If you choose to do so, you must re-roll both the 2D6 and the scatter dice.
Unless you meant if you roll an arrow but still hit a unit... meh. Still worth pointing out.
I thought the same thing until I read the Living Artillery Node rules:
“Organic Bombardment: All ranged weapons fired by models in this Formation have the Pinning special rule. In addition, models in this Formation that are within 12" of this Formation’s Tyranid Warrior Brood can re-roll the scatter dice when firing weapons with the Blast or Barrage special rule"
And to clarify, the reason why you might do this is if you don't have any good/viable targets for the Biovores, or to roadblock units from advancing/running away. It's not going to do that much all the time, but it is often better than plinking a blast on AV 10 or T6
Well, I suppose I am eating crow now. I didn't think they would actually make a spore pod model. That being said...think they might update the codex pdf with these new unit rules?
Our local gaming group meets on Mondays for casual games. Last night my opponent (who was running sentinels of terra) let me make a last minute change to my list to include a Tyrannocyte. I dropped enough models to make up the points, and just happened to be using Swarmlord in the list so he got the ride.
Thanks to his reserves roll bonus the pod showed up on turn 2, along with a Trygon Prime in his backfield. While he was busy shooting at my shrouded raveners (thank you Malanthrope) and my two yo-yo Lictors (G2G in a ruin for 2+ cover, move synapse closer to pop them back up and assault with them) the Swarmlord was left to do what he does best.
By the end of the game I had killed everything in his army except for Lysander and 3 Assault terminators. They didn't arrive until turn 3 and he placed them far away from my melee-focused MC's.
My overall impression was that this is going to be a HUGE boon to tyranid players, as another tool to re-vamp our lists that focus on Melee. We used an old Epicast Spore as the proxy for the T-cyte, which was about the same size but blocked line of sight. The T-cyte will not, as it sits up on some tendrils. Aside from that i think it was a pretty fair play experience to see what happens when Swarmlord plonks down right in front of a scout unit, a techmarine and servitors, and a devastator team.
Edit to include the army lists (approximate). We played 1500 points.
Our local gaming group meets on Mondays for casual games. Last night my opponent (who was running sentinels of terra) let me make a last minute change to my list to include a Tyrannocyte. I dropped enough models to make up the points, and just happened to be using Swarmlord in the list so he got the ride.
Spoiler:
Thanks to his reserves roll bonus the pod showed up on turn 2, along with a Trygon Prime in his backfield. While he was busy shooting at my shrouded raveners (thank you Malanthrope) and my two yo-yo Lictors (G2G in a ruin for 2+ cover, move synapse closer to pop them back up and assault with them) the Swarmlord was left to do what he does best.
By the end of the game I had killed everything in his army except for Lysander and 3 Assault terminators. They didn't arrive until turn 3 and he placed them far away from my melee-focused MC's.
My overall impression was that this is going to be a HUGE boon to tyranid players, as another tool to re-vamp our lists that focus on Melee. We used an old Epicast Spore as the proxy for the T-cyte, which was about the same size but blocked line of sight. The T-cyte will not, as it sits up on some tendrils. Aside from that i think it was a pretty fair play experience to see what happens when Swarmlord plonks down right in front of a scout unit, a techmarine and servitors, and a devastator team.
If Swarmy could take his entourage along with him it would work even better.
Is there possibly any merit in putting 19 DevilGaunts with a LW+BS Prime in a pod to go Wraithknight hunting?
Pod drops down you unload 60 str 4 shots into a unit near the Wraithknight or problem unit, next turn you assualt the Wraithknight. Thats a big tar pit for it to get through, it can single out your Prime and it will eventually roll a 6 to wound it.
Is there possibly any merit in putting 19 DevilGaunts with a LW+BS Prime in a pod to go Wraithknight hunting?
Pod drops down you unload 60 str 4 shots into a unit near the Wraithknight or problem unit, next turn you assualt the Wraithknight. Thats a big tar pit for it to get through, it can single out your Prime and it will eventually roll a 6 to wound it.
Warriors and Warrior Primes are Very Bulky, so you'd have to drop the devilgaunts to 17 in order to make capacity.
Also I'd give the prime 2 CC weapons rather than his stock devourer - the extra attack with his bonesword is far more valuable in-game than 3 s4 ap- shots, especially when you're already getting 51 from the termagants, and an additional 15 s5 shots from the pod. Otherwise i say go for it. The Wraithknight is not a character, so he can't challenge out the Prime and will waste his attacks stomping little bugs. Then all the T. Prime has to do is roll fairly decent to instant-kill the wraithknight.
I think the idea will be to present multiple threats to the enemy at once. Perhaps a second spore with a Dimachaeron or even a Toxicrene nearby so whichever way the wraithknight goes, he's going to have to face melee retribution in some fashion.
tetrisphreak wrote: I think the idea will be to present multiple threats to the enemy at once. Perhaps a second spore with a Dimachaeron or even a Toxicrene nearby so whichever way the wraithknight goes, he's going to have to face melee retribution in some fashion.
It's still at the loss of a Flyrant slot for a gamble on things going right. Id take the Flyrant over that any day.
Verviedi wrote: In your opinion, what is the best 1000 point list to take against Grey Knights?
Just off the top of my head:
Hive Tyrant - wings, 2x devourers, e. shock grubs
3x rippers, deep strike
3x rippers, deep strike
23 termagants
1 malanthrope
Exocrine
Exocrine
Carnifex with 2x Devourers
-997 points
Focus all your AP 2 shooting at terminators or dreadknights, everything else pours into power armour. Devourers and exocrines can handle the rhinos or razorbacks you might see. Ignore a storm raven and kill the threatening units first. "Closest weapon, best target" ideology.
tetrisphreak wrote: I think the idea will be to present multiple threats to the enemy at once. Perhaps a second spore with a Dimachaeron or even a Toxicrene nearby so whichever way the wraithknight goes, he's going to have to face melee retribution in some fashion.
It's still at the loss of a Flyrant slot for a gamble on things going right. Id take the Flyrant over that any day.
Oh i agree that it's a tradeoff for sure. Personally however I love the fact that multiple list options are soon opening up, instead of absolutely 100% needing double flyrant in every list.
At BS 2, 5 deathspitters are going to hit something within 18" 5 times on average. That isn't much dakka. For 25 points we can put blasts on the thing, which would seem to be very worth it. But which blast?
Barbed Strangler is a far better choice when taken with warriors. Large Blast + Pinning is a killer combinations. Great range. However, it works well because the warriors are able to pick their target. Without being able to pick a target those 5 large blast could end up being much dice rolling for little results. The Venom Cannon is S6 AP4 small blast. Not near as good when you can pick your target but better if you can't, because S6 is capable of wounding most things, and glancing most armor.
I do not think that ends the discussion, however. Despite the automated fire of the pod, sometimes we can still pick our target. Dropping in the right place, taking the right cargo, etc, etc. Therefore I'm thinking that the following upgrades make sense.
Barbed Strangler for the following: Dakkafex
Exocrine
Hive Guard
Dakka Tyrant (should have just make it a flyrant)
These things are all capable of coming in and popping a vehicle to create a viable target for the Barbed stranglers even if one does not exist prior to drop. Also, they have long enough range that the drop can take place closer to viable targets.
Venom Cannon for everything else. That way, you can come in right next to a Riptide or Wraith Knight, and still have your shots be possibly meaningful. Furthermore, if you are bringing in something like a Dimacharon, the pod may be able to pop vehicles and reveal potential targets for a charge. If you are bringing in something like Pyrovores, you are already stacked with templates, and because the Pyrovores must be close to whatever they are shooting at, it may be difficult to target survivors with a large blast.
Verviedi wrote: In your opinion, what is the best 1000 point list to take against Grey Knights?
Just off the top of my head:
Hive Tyrant - wings, 2x devourers, e. shock grubs
3x rippers, deep strike
3x rippers, deep strike
23 termagants
1 malanthrope
Exocrine
Exocrine
Carnifex with 2x Devourers
-997 points
Focus all your AP 2 shooting at terminators or dreadknights, everything else pours into power armour. Devourers and exocrines can handle the rhinos or razorbacks you might see. Ignore a storm raven and kill the threatening units first. "Closest weapon, best target" ideology.
tetrisphreak wrote: I think the idea will be to present multiple threats to the enemy at once. Perhaps a second spore with a Dimachaeron or even a Toxicrene nearby so whichever way the wraithknight goes, he's going to have to face melee retribution in some fashion.
It's still at the loss of a Flyrant slot for a gamble on things going right. Id take the Flyrant over that any day.
Oh i agree that it's a tradeoff for sure. Personally however I love the fact that multiple list options are soon opening up, instead of absolutely 100% needing double flyrant in every list.
Is there possibly any merit in putting 19 DevilGaunts with a LW+BS Prime in a pod to go Wraithknight hunting?
Pod drops down you unload 60 str 4 shots into a unit near the Wraithknight or problem unit, next turn you assualt the Wraithknight. Thats a big tar pit for it to get through, it can single out your Prime and it will eventually roll a 6 to wound it.
Warriors and Warrior Primes are Very Bulky, so you'd have to drop the devilgaunts to 17 in order to make capacity.
Also I'd give the prime 2 CC weapons rather than his stock devourer - the extra attack with his bonesword is far more valuable in-game than 3 s4 ap- shots, especially when you're already getting 51 from the termagants, and an additional 15 s5 shots from the pod. Otherwise i say go for it. The Wraithknight is not a character, so he can't challenge out the Prime and will waste his attacks stomping little bugs. Then all the T. Prime has to do is roll fairly decent to instant-kill the wraithknight.
Yeah so other than those other little details it seems pretty legit, I have massive problems dealing with Wraithknights and I'm already going to be getting a Dima in a pod and I think I'll run a second pod with that unit in it. Even in a TAC list it will have its uses when coming up against other armies.
Also to the comment about a Wraithknight moving away, it's not as easy to get away from that unit as it will just deep strike as close as possible, disembark 6" and then the wraith only has one turn to move 12" away before the unit moves 6" and charges 2d6.
Electroshock, carnifex charge, exocrine smash. Honestly? Ignore them and kill the contents. Each LR is 25% of his ENTIRE army. Ignoring it makes it a 1000pt vs 750 pt game. Go for objective points and even use rippers to steal or contest his LR's objective, if it even has one. That'll steam his carrots.
Iechine wrote: That requires an opponent who lets you drop a pod with the cargo and then wait his 12" moving WK in assault range.
It isn't as bad as you imply. You get to drop the pod 1" away. It may scatter, sure, but most of the time, you can make that scatter back with your disembark. So the WK moves 12" and you are now 13" away. On your turn move 6", and now you are 7" away and have a 7" charge to make.
However, rather than expensive devil-Gants, might I suggest cheaper Hormagants. With AG on the prime, you now have a unit with fleet to make the charge. You can then run on the turn you arrive to surround the wraith Knight on 3 sides making it more difficult for him to get away. Still a pricey investment that is inferior to a dakka flyrant, but the gap between the two has closed considerably.
Here is my proposal.
Tyranid Prime (Flesh Hooks, BS+LW, TS, AG, STs)
17 Hormagants
Tyrannocite (VC)
total of 360 points. Going to wreck most things in assault. If the Prime were 75 Points like he should be, this would be decently viable. I would generally find this much more useful than a Dima in a pod, but that has more to do with my meta, I suspect.
Generally ignore it. Only charge / shoot at if if you don't have a better target.
Eldercaveman wrote: Yeah so other than those other little details it seems pretty legit, I have massive problems dealing with Wraithknights and I'm already going to be getting a Dima in a pod and I think I'll run a second pod with that unit in it. Even in a TAC list it will have its uses when coming up against other armies.
The solution to a Wraith Knight isn't a Dima in a pod (300 points, easily killable by eldar). It is 20 Gargoyles (120 points), 20 hormagants(100) or 20 hormagants with poison(160) I've taken Dima's against eldar about a 8-10 times now, and the only charges I've ever gotten off on Wraith Knights have been through cover while grievously wounded, and the wraith knight has made short work of the Dima. I ran a Trygon Prime against Eldar on Sunday. They killed it in a single round of shooting on the turn it arrived even with 4+ cover. Basically a Dima is only an answer to a Wraith Knight if the person playing the Wraith Knight doesn't know what he is doing. He will soak up bullets, but 275 for a bullet magnet might be a tad steep.
Out of curiosity, does anyone have a anecdote of a Dimacharon actually killing a Wraith Knight in a real game?
Is there possibly any merit in putting 19 DevilGaunts with a LW+BS Prime in a pod to go Wraithknight hunting?
Pod drops down you unload 60 str 4 shots into a unit near the Wraithknight or problem unit, next turn you assualt the Wraithknight. Thats a big tar pit for it to get through, it can single out your Prime and it will eventually roll a 6 to wound it.
Warriors and Warrior Primes are Very Bulky, so you'd have to drop the devilgaunts to 17 in order to make capacity.
Also I'd give the prime 2 CC weapons rather than his stock devourer - the extra attack with his bonesword is far more valuable in-game than 3 s4 ap- shots, especially when you're already getting 51 from the termagants, and an additional 15 s5 shots from the pod. Otherwise i say go for it. The Wraithknight is not a character, so he can't challenge out the Prime and will waste his attacks stomping little bugs. Then all the T. Prime has to do is roll fairly decent to instant-kill the wraithknight.
Yeah so other than those other little details it seems pretty legit, I have massive problems dealing with Wraithknights and I'm already going to be getting a Dima in a pod and I think I'll run a second pod with that unit in it. Even in a TAC list it will have its uses when coming up against other armies.
Also to the comment about a Wraithknight moving away, it's not as easy to get away from that unit as it will just deep strike as close as possible, disembark 6" and then the wraith only has one turn to move 12" away before the unit moves 6" and charges 2d6.
It's also worth noting that if you're meta allows self-ally, then the Prime + Gaunts fills you HQ + 1 troop requirement. So, no need to give up a flyrant if you don't want to (or just go double CAD with 1 Mucolid if you must have a 3rd flyrant). And I agree on the extra melee weapon instead of devourer. You should be giving the Prime Flesh Hooks, anyway, so you are only really giving up 2 S4 shots to have an extra melee attack, which is well worth it in my book.
SBG wrote: Finding myself wondering if the Tyrannocyte can move on the turn it DS in?
I would say no. Since Deep Strike says that units who arrive in that manner cannot move any further that turn I believe that would definitely apply here. Basically it's the old mycetic spore that has more guns, and gets to float around in subsequent turns which is great because it won't block up your assault lanes like the old ones sometimes did. Hiding behind it for the cover save won't jam up your Old One Eye or Dimachaeron.
AdeptSister wrote: If you can't use FW, what melee TMC would be best to pod in?
Maybe a Haruspex for the 5th wound and wound regeneration abilities. Stone Crusher...
Also considering a broodlord again...being able to choose a pod or not is huge.
EDIT: Too used to using Stone Crushers...forgot he's FW
Honestly I think the Dakkafex is good enough in melee, plus his normal badassery, to use in a Pod. I know I'm hardly the only person saying that though. Or, if going CC, the swarmlord is a tempting thing. Stonecrusher fex are great in this role, even meleefex wouldn't be terrible. The Haruspex becomes not-terrible, but I'd still recommend a Toxicrene over him if you can get him in terrain.
Personally I'll be dropping Tyrannofex and Dakkafex in there, for a good combination of firepower where I want it and toughness with good CC ability afterwards.
AdeptSister wrote: If you can't use FW, what melee TMC would be best to pod in?
Maybe a Haruspex for the 5th wound and wound regeneration abilities. Stone Crusher...
Also considering a broodlord again...being able to choose a pod or not is huge.
EDIT: Too used to using Stone Crushers...forgot he's FW
Honestly I think the Dakkafex is good enough in melee, plus his normal badassery, to use in a Pod. I know I'm hardly the only person saying that though. Or, if going CC, the swarmlord is a tempting thing. Stonecrusher fex are great in this role, even meleefex wouldn't be terrible. The Haruspex becomes not-terrible, but I'd still recommend a Toxicrene over him if you can get him in terrain.
Personally I'll be dropping Tyrannofex and Dakkafex in there, for a good combination of firepower where I want it and toughness with good CC ability afterwards.
If you can't take a Dimacharon, and want a Melee MC, the answer is the Toxicrine. He is unimpressive stacked next to the Dimacharon or any of our shooty MC's, but as an assaulter, he has a boatload of attacks, high initiative, and comes with shrouded.
AdeptSister wrote: If you can't use FW, what melee TMC would be best to pod in?
Maybe a Haruspex for the 5th wound and wound regeneration abilities. Stone Crusher...
Also considering a broodlord again...being able to choose a pod or not is huge.
EDIT: Too used to using Stone Crushers...forgot he's FW
Honestly I think the Dakkafex is good enough in melee, plus his normal badassery, to use in a Pod. I know I'm hardly the only person saying that though. Or, if going CC, the swarmlord is a tempting thing. Stonecrusher fex are great in this role, even meleefex wouldn't be terrible. The Haruspex becomes not-terrible, but I'd still recommend a Toxicrene over him if you can get him in terrain.
Personally I'll be dropping Tyrannofex and Dakkafex in there, for a good combination of firepower where I want it and toughness with good CC ability afterwards.
I also like the idea of DS Tyranofex. Shoot even a boring old school Screamer Killer could work, you can Plasma on arrival, then HOW next turn.
Iechine wrote: Just built my Dimachaeron that came in the mail yesterday and...yea what a hideous model.
Even in FW allowed games, Im not sure I see myself taking him. I wish Trygon was made closer on par to his badassery in CC.
Hideous as in you hate it? O.o I would much rather use a Dima over a Trygon aesthetic-wise haha
And it all depends if you're talking competitive games or purely fun. I play both types of games so I can use most if not all of my models at some point.
Iechine wrote: Just built my Dimachaeron that came in the mail yesterday and...yea what a hideous model.
Even in FW allowed games, Im not sure I see myself taking him. I wish Trygon was made closer on par to his badassery in CC.
Hideous as in you hate it? O.o I would much rather use a Dima over a Trygon aesthetic-wise haha
And it all depends if you're talking competitive games or purely fun. I play both types of games so I can use most if not all of my models at some point.
Appearance wise it looks like an amateur kitbash of 'make-your-own-tyranid". Trygon looks awesome and always has, but this edition he (as we all know) is absolutely awful.
Jackal wrote: As someone who has never seen the rules for the Dimachaeron, im guessing its pretty solid?
Imagine instant death....pretty much all the time every time. Lots of nasty and usually gets a 4+ FNP once it wins a combat. As the gentleman before me pointed out, he used to just be a slow 6" move MC....but now he's a slow 6" move MC who can jump out right in front of their face! Reliably!
Iechine I'm sort of surprised you don't like the sculpt - I didn't think it looked good until I saw it in person and it's really grown on me, but I like lictors so I was pretty ready to love it I think. To each his own though. Art is art is subjective. I mean, some people even like the Maleceptor sculpt. Go figure (I think the Toxicrene is dope, but again it's basically a lictor genus)
The big spore mine is practically useless, moving and charging at half speed means it will never get anywhere and even if it does, centering the large blast marker on top of your own model means that you only hit 2 model from the "explosion" , 3 at best, because people spread their uints. Assuming overwatch does nt wipe your spore before they get there, the dmg dealt will never be crippling to your oponent. Also, the ability to charge flyers is a really cruel one, because you will never catch something that moves 18"+ with a 3"move and 2d6/2 charge.
I think the sporocyst is a bad unit, spawning spore mines is useless (as discussed earlier) and midfield synapse can be accomplished with more efficient unit choices, flyrants anyone? Using that unit as an objectives holder is also, not reliable, because it will get shot down very easily, or grenaded from melee. The gun options on it are very situational 18" s5 gets outranged, 36" s4 large blast is not too shabby in certain situations but it is too expensive and will not make its points back. s6 ap4 small blast is just terrible, so going with venom upgrade would be inefficient pointswise.
You are only left with the drop pod version , which is the exact same thing from what I just mentionned but you get to deep strike a unit of your choosing. Basically, You get mobility for your fat potatoes but at a 75 pts tax. Which is by far the best option but when you compare to SM drop pods, it is extremely overcosted for what you get. (No Obj sec, no alpha strike, more than double the points, units coming out of there will be out of synapse which limits the use of the drop to within 12" of your flyrants and and the biggest problem is that the unit will come late during the game, meaning you either have to pay an extra tax for reserve control upgrades or waste precious turns of shooting in reserves.) Space marines dont have fat potatoes but they can pop vehicles by dropping really cheap multimelta shots, something tyranids will never be able to do for that amount of points.
TLDR: tyranocyte is usefull but tyranids armies will still get outclassed by other armies due to inneficient unit points. the other 2 options are situational , borderline bad, definately not any must haves with this release so far.
Is there any reason that a Hive Tyrant (or Swarmlord) and a unit of Tyrant Guard can't Deep Strike in separate pods and join together on the other end?
I still think the Sporecyst is a hidden gem. It's a infiltrating LoS blocker that spawns free models. You can park it on an objective drop up to 5 pie plates. It's not amazing, but I can see some of the utility it can bring. And it's definitely fluffy!
Sinful Hero wrote: Thought spore mines(and this the mucolid) use the large blast?
And the Sporocyst does not have synapse, just any synapse creature within 6" gets it synapse range boosted by 6".
Instinctive behavior doesn't apply on the turn a unit arrives from reserves.
You re right about the large blast but even then, a spread out unit will only ever get hit 2 or 3 times, and that is assuming your mines dont die to overwatch (which is very likely with the toughness they have). Lets be honest here, spore mines are absolutely useless.
IB is not a major factor but its something to keep in mind and it does kick in at the begining of the turn after you deep strike.
Sinful Hero wrote: Thought spore mines(and this the mucolid) use the large blast?
And the Sporocyst does not have synapse, just any synapse creature within 6" gets it synapse range boosted by 6".
Instinctive behavior doesn't apply on the turn a unit arrives from reserves.
You re right about the large blast but even then, a spread out unit will only ever get hit 2 or 3 times, and that is assuming your mines dont die to overwatch (which is very likely with the toughness they have). Lets be honest here, spore mines are absolutely useless.
IB is not a major factor but its something to keep in mind and it does kick in at the begining of the turn after you deep strike.
Don't have my book on me, but I could have sworn it had a clause about not having to test after arriving from reserves. May just be wishful thinking.
You don't need to. Both rules say that you perform the action "at the start of your turn"
RAW in the BRB, anything that happens simultaneously (like a challenge and Mindshackle Scarabs) is decided by the player whose turn it is. Since it will always be your turn when your units arrive by deep strike, you can test for instinctive behavior before or after your deep striking units arrive on the table. This means that if you have a unit coming in from deep strike, it won't need to test until the start of the next turn (if you choose to test before your reserves come in). If you decide to test after your reserves come in, then you can deep strike a synapse creature in and have other units benefit from its synapse. Sadly you can't have it both ways - you do have to decide when you test
I would love for someone to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I'm reading the rules
Sinful Hero wrote: Thought spore mines(and this the mucolid) use the large blast?
And the Sporocyst does not have synapse, just any synapse creature within 6" gets it synapse range boosted by 6".
Instinctive behavior doesn't apply on the turn a unit arrives from reserves.
You re right about the large blast but even then, a spread out unit will only ever get hit 2 or 3 times, and that is assuming your mines dont die to overwatch (which is very likely with the toughness they have). Lets be honest here, spore mines are absolutely useless.
IB is not a major factor but its something to keep in mind and it does kick in at the begining of the turn after you deep strike.
Why? None of the three units have Instinctive Behavior. 2 have Instinctive Fire, a very different rule.
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cyberjonesy wrote: The big spore mine is practically useless, moving and charging at half speed means it will never get anywhere and even if it does, centering the large blast marker on top of your own model means that you only hit 2 model from the "explosion" , 3 at best, because people spread their uints. Assuming overwatch does nt wipe your spore before they get there, the dmg dealt will never be crippling to your oponent. Also, the ability to charge flyers is a really cruel one, because you will never catch something that moves 18"+ with a 3"move and 2d6/2 charge.
I think the sporocyst is a bad unit, spawning spore mines is useless (as discussed earlier) and midfield synapse can be accomplished with more efficient unit choices, flyrants anyone? Using that unit as an objectives holder is also, not reliable, because it will get shot down very easily, or grenaded from melee. The gun options on it are very situational 18" s5 gets outranged, 36" s4 large blast is not too shabby in certain situations but it is too expensive and will not make its points back. s6 ap4 small blast is just terrible, so going with venom upgrade would be inefficient pointswise.
You are only left with the drop pod version , which is the exact same thing from what I just mentionned but you get to deep strike a unit of your choosing. Basically, You get mobility for your fat potatoes but at a 75 pts tax. Which is by far the best option but when you compare to SM drop pods, it is extremely overcosted for what you get. (No Obj sec, no alpha strike, more than double the points, units coming out of there will be out of synapse which limits the use of the drop to within 12" of your flyrants and and the biggest problem is that the unit will come late during the game, meaning you either have to pay an extra tax for reserve control upgrades or waste precious turns of shooting in reserves.)
Space marines dont have fat potatoes but they can pop vehicles by dropping really cheap multimelta shots, something tyranids will never be able to do for that amount of points.
TLDR: tyranocyte is usefull but tyranids armies will still get outclassed by other armies due to inneficient unit points.
the other 2 options are situational , borderline bad, definately not any must haves with this release so far.
The other two units are just fine. Just like Spore Mines you won't likely take the Muscilod. You take the Sporocyst as deployable weapons battery. For the 75-100 points it is very good at what it does, provide a platform for 5 pie plates, add free units to be dealt with, act as a synapse amp which can very useful for Tsunami style list. And once per game it can pop a Muscilod, and this is when it targets flyers, it makes anywhere in 14-18 a threat to flyers.
I think you're underselling the Muscolids. They are cheap enough that you can just take a bunch of them and spread them out over a table, if your opponent wastes time shooting at them, then oh well. Flyers are fast, but you can make it so that they are never more than 7-8" away from a mine regardless of where they try to go, which gives you a good chance of hitting one.
Also, if you play against the type of opponent that meticulously places all his models exactly 2" apart at all times in order to prevent getting hit by templates, then I'd say you have bigger problems than poor rules.
dan2026 wrote: Is there any reason that a Hive Tyrant (or Swarmlord) and a unit of Tyrant Guard can't Deep Strike in separate pods and join together on the other end?
No reason except it is pricey. You might scatter too far apart, but it would be unlikely.
cyberjonesy wrote: The big spore mine is practically useless, moving and charging at half speed means it will never get anywhere and even if it does, centering the large blast marker on top of your own model means that you only hit 2 model from the "explosion" , 3 at best, because people spread their uints. Assuming overwatch does nt wipe your spore before they get there, the dmg dealt will never be crippling to your oponent. Also, the ability to charge flyers is a really cruel one, because you will never catch something that moves 18"+ with a 3"move and 2d6/2 charge.
I think the sporocyst is a bad unit, spawning spore mines is useless (as discussed earlier) and midfield synapse can be accomplished with more efficient unit choices, flyrants anyone? Using that unit as an objectives holder is also, not reliable, because it will get shot down very easily, or grenaded from melee. The gun options on it are very situational 18" s5 gets outranged, 36" s4 large blast is not too shabby in certain situations but it is too expensive and will not make its points back. s6 ap4 small blast is just terrible, so going with venom upgrade would be inefficient pointswise.
You are only left with the drop pod version , which is the exact same thing from what I just mentionned but you get to deep strike a unit of your choosing. Basically, You get mobility for your fat potatoes but at a 75 pts tax. Which is by far the best option but when you compare to SM drop pods, it is extremely overcosted for what you get. (No Obj sec, no alpha strike, more than double the points, units coming out of there will be out of synapse which limits the use of the drop to within 12" of your flyrants and and the biggest problem is that the unit will come late during the game, meaning you either have to pay an extra tax for reserve control upgrades or waste precious turns of shooting in reserves.)
Space marines dont have fat potatoes but they can pop vehicles by dropping really cheap multimelta shots, something tyranids will never be able to do for that amount of points.
TLDR: tyranocyte is usefull but tyranids armies will still get outclassed by other armies due to inneficient unit points.
the other 2 options are situational , borderline bad, definately not any must haves with this release so far.
Sure the Mucolids isn't going to catch anything that doesn't decide to avoid it, but on the flipside, that gives you board control over that area. If they want that area back there is no real cost effective way to deal with 3x 10 pt T5 wounds with shrouded and 9 times out of 10 you'll get a decent trade for that S8 blast points wise. Sure it's not phenomenal, but it's about on the same level as any other of our crappy mandatory troops, with advantages (cheaper) and disadvantages (scoring) it's a lot better than you give it credit for and will definitely see play.
The sporocyst I agree is absolutely terrible. A lot of people just look at like "omg free spawning excellent way to get a points advantage". No. You know what spore mines are worth? Well, not the 15 points they cost in the codex or else they'd be taken more often than never. Do you know what spore mines that don't DS are worth? Absolutely nothing. This unit is beyond trash and for the same price you get a unit that does all the same stuff and can DS a unit, a critical feature for plenty of Nids slow close range beasts.
Which brings me to the last point - the Tyrannocyte. You are dead wrong on this. It wouldn't matter if SM got the exact same model for a 1/4 of the price - A. It doesn't make our one any worse and B. It's about more than the model itself. We have units that benefit from Drop Pods FAR greater than SM do. Sure, they have a couple that love, but we are THE close range shooting army. Dakkafexes, TyrNnofexes, Pyrovores, we have the tools to put this to greater use and thus the added cost is actually justified IMO. This model is excellent, and because of it, Tyranids are now in the best shape they've been in for 3 editions now as far as internal balance goes. Look past the SM comparisons because that isn't even relevant unless they have an equivalent for each unit we have.
The sporocyst I agree is absolutely terrible. A lot of people just look at like "omg free spawning excellent way to get a points advantage".
It is not about the spawning. It is about placing a unit on an objective and denying it. You spawn only to buffer that unit and it is a weapons platform ...albeit only 5 deathspitters and a large blast once a game but still. You do not always have to make your points back on a unit for it to be useful.
SHUPPET wrote: Which brings me to the last point - the Tyrannocyte. You are dead wrong on this. It wouldn't matter if SM got the exact same model for a 1/4 of the price - A. It doesn't make our one any worse and B. It's about more than the model itself. We have units that benefit from Drop Pods FAR greater than SM do. Sure, they have a couple that love, but we are THE close range shooting army. Dakkafexes, TyrNnofexes, Pyrovores, we have the tools to put this to greater use and thus the added cost is actually justified IMO. This model is excellent, and because of it, Tyranids are now in the best shape they've been in for 3 editions now as far as internal balance goes. Look past the SM comparisons because that isn't even relevant unless they have an equivalent for each unit we have.
The sporocyst I agree is absolutely terrible. A lot of people just look at like "omg free spawning excellent way to get a points advantage".
It is not about the spawning. It is about placing a unit on an objective and denying it. You spawn only to buffer that unit and it is a weapons platform ...albeit only 5 deathspitters and a large blast once a game but still. You do not always have to make your points back on a unit for it to be useful.
So basically, everything a Tyrannocyte can do, except without the amazing option of deepstriking a unit in with it?
Also that isn't a large blast once a game, it's a non-deepstriking Mucolid once a game.
I like to think of the Tyrannocite as an expensive biomorph that gives you deepstrike and 5 deathspitters...would I pay 75 pts for that upgrade? Yep.
Turn 2 typically has my 3 Tyrants in the air being dicks to everything on the ground mid field. So nows when I want to keep allowing that to happen, deepstriking MC(s) are a great distraction.
Still havent decided on what MC to send in though.
Assuming FW is not allowed and in a competitive setting:
Dakkafex Classic devourers mulch and can be useful against certain targets, and no one likes a charge from one. They are squishy. One fex alone without cover just cant take the front and center firepower many armies can throw out.
Tyrannofex Tough as nails and his acid spray would reach whatever you needed to after deep striking. He sucks at combat and has low damage output against a lot of common builds.
Exocrine One of the main reasons I never use this guy is his 24" range. Now that he can arrive and spit out AP2, he can be really helpful in removing a variety of targets your Flyrants have already softened up See Carnifex, plus he sucks at combat
Toxicrene The potential for instant death on a variety of targets is promising. He's also a wide model that can use the Tyrannocite for cover when he comes in, ensuring the 3+ cover save at least. He assault potential is promising, wounding anything on a 2+ with AP2 and potential for ID cant be overlooked. He's even squishier than most of our MC's. Some units he just has no business assaulting, and without his cover save his survival looks grim.
Haruspex It's a Haruspex.
A tourney list for consideration:
1850
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Iechine wrote: I like to think of the Tyrannocite as an expensive biomorph that gives you deepstrike and 5 deathspitters...would I pay 75 pts for that upgrade? Yep.
Turn 2 typically has my 3 Tyrants in the air being dicks to everything on the ground mid field. So nows when I want to keep allowing that to happen, deepstriking MC(s) are a great distraction.
Still havent decided on what MC to send in though.
Assuming FW is not allowed and in a competitive setting:
Dakkafex Classic devourers mulch and can be useful against certain targets, and no one likes a charge from one. They are squishy. One fex alone without cover just cant take the front and center firepower many armies can throw out.
Tyrannofex Tough as nails and his acid spray would reach whatever you needed to after deep striking. He sucks at combat and has low damage output against a lot of common builds.
Exocrine One of the main reasons I never use this guy is his 24" range. Now that he can arrive and spit out AP2, he can be really helpful in removing a variety of targets your Flyrants have already softened up See Carnifex, plus he sucks at combat
Toxicrene The potential for instant death on a variety of targets is promising. He's also a wide model that can use the Tyrannocite for cover when he comes in, ensuring the 3+ cover save at least. He assault potential is promising, wounding anything on a 2+ with AP2 and potential for ID cant be overlooked. He's even squishier than most of our MC's. Some units he just has no business assaulting, and without his cover save his survival looks grim.
Haruspex It's a Haruspex.
A tourney list for consideration:
1850
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Verviedi wrote: Please tell me why this list will fail horribly at killing GKs.
HQ-
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs (240)
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs (240)
Troops-
Rippers w/ DS (45)
Rippers w/ DS (45)
Elites-
Venomthrope (45)
Zoanthrope (50)
Heavy Support-
Exocrine (170)
Mawloc (140)
Exocrine (170)
Because Grey Knights.
On a more useful note - it looks good. Two Exocrines will do horrible, horrible things to an elite heavy-infantry army.
Castle them up to provide a wall the Tyrants, venomthrope and zoanthrope can hide behind until they launch, then strafe the psychic buggers from above. Shadow in the warp actually makes psychic scream useful if you can cast it.
My main concern - you have a big, tough firebase in your two plasma bugs, and two tyrants.....and that's about it. I get that the rippers are a 'minimum troops' thing, but with Interceptors and shunt-jumping dreadknights, he can pounce on weakly held objectives very effectively.
As far as the tyrannocite is concerned....Hmm
Agreed that dakkafexes are a bit fragile. I know that it seems stupid to call something with 4 T6 3+ armour wounds 'fragile' but they feel like it. Trygons and Mawlocs don't need the spore's assistance. Toxicrenes are very killy but need a skirmish screen of little bugs for their survivability; I'd expect one to take a severe mangling in even a single turn exposed to enemy fire.
My suggestions:
20 x Devourer-armed Termagants and strangler upgrades. Because nothing says "ninja attack" like five barbed stranglers and sixty bolter shots that you weren't expecting! Swap a couple out for a Prime if you want a bit more tactical control.
Haruspex with Regeneration and Adrenal Glands. Theoretically an incredibly killy beast, the Haruspex fails on the table because it never, every makes it to the enemy.
Pyrovores. Because they must have some use, and this (hopefully) is it. Half a dozen heavy flamers can make a right mess of....well...most things.
Mucolid Spores are interesting. As stated, they're very much area denial, but that's not inherently a bad thing. To provide much of a flak envelope, you'll need a lot of the buggers!
The Tyrannocite's Transport Spore rules are very interesting. The fact that you can tailor its contents on the fly is superb. Shame it doesn't have 'assault' capability like a drop pod or dreadclaw, so no all-reserve armies, but even so, it's good to see deep striking monsters back in force.
It's the single most intrguing part of the new bug forces.
I've got my default tyranid list, which hasn't really changed since 5th edition (because I like fielding a tidal wave of bugs).
Plus twenty-odd points of upgrades I can never agree with myself what to buy with.
Throwing in Tyrannocites lets me heft the force a long way up the board for not many points at all. Dropping a tervigon could let me fling the two HQ bugs at a flank - electroshock grubs and cluster spines would be a lot of close-ranged fire, and the ability to start spawning termagants on an enemy's flank has to mess with plans...
You know, with the option of these drop pods, has anyone taken a look back at Genestealers? Depending on what else drops in on the same turn, you could have enough target priority issues to allow these guys to make it into combat.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, with the option of these drop pods, has anyone taken a look back at Genestealers? Depending on what else drops in on the same turn, you could have enough target priority issues to allow these guys to make it into combat.
Dropping them alongside Venom/Malanthropes could be a solid approach. Pair them with some Venomthropes, and if there's no synapse nearby you can go to ground for a 2+ cover save, then move synapse up or activate Dominion from something ready for the following turn to assault. Or using Malanthropes in support gives a shot at getting Preferred Enemy and lets you try to negate any Characters that could be a threat to the Broodlord.
So basically, everything a Tyrannocyte can do, except without the amazing option of deepstriking a unit in with it?
Also that isn't a large blast once a game, it's a non-deepstriking Mucolid once a game.
Really not the same at all. First it spawns as well and second it has resonance which could be quite useful. And why would you need yo DS that Mucolid ... you place it 6" away from the cyst? My point was that yes, it spawns, but it has other abilities and uses as well.
So basically, everything a Tyrannocyte can do, except without the amazing option of deepstriking a unit in with it?
Also that isn't a large blast once a game, it's a non-deepstriking Mucolid once a game.
Really not the same at all. First it spawns as well and second it has resonance which could be quite useful. And why would you need yo DS that Mucolid ... you place it 6" away from the cyst? My point was that yes, it spawns, but it has other abilities and uses as well.
To put it somewhere actually useful? Either way it's nowhere near the large blast it was described as. The only thing it does that the Tcyte doesn't is synapse amp, which is ridiculously unreliable and likely to have zero impact on about 99% of games. I mean if you have Synapse you have Synapse. This guy is unplayable. Bottom of the barrel unit, in any codex. Wow it can feebly defend itself with spores. Except shooting ofc, but not like anybody uses guns in 40k. Good thing too, because the benefits this thing add are just so worth defending!
This thing is spending points just to spend points.
So basically, everything a Tyrannocyte can do, except without the amazing option of deepstriking a unit in with it?
Also that isn't a large blast once a game, it's a non-deepstriking Mucolid once a game.
Really not the same at all. First it spawns as well and second it has resonance which could be quite useful. And why would you need yo DS that Mucolid ... you place it 6" away from the cyst? My point was that yes, it spawns, but it has other abilities and uses as well.
To put it somewhere actually useful? Either way it's nowhere near the large blast it was described as. The only thing it does that the Tcyte doesn't is synapse amp, which is ridiculously unreliable and likely to have zero impact on about 99% of games. I mean if you have Synapse you have Synapse. This guy is unplayable. Bottom of the barrel unit, in any codex. Wow it can feebly defend itself with spores. Except shooting ofc, but not like anybody uses guns in 40k. Good thing too, because the benefits this thing add are just so worth defending!
This thing is spending points just to spend points.
It is (not) shrouded, to be fair, which means it will very likely have a 2++ cover save, 3+ at worst, making it much more durable than normal SPods and thus better as a placeholder/Objective contester.
Personally I still won't be taking one, but I don't think it's a bad choice it all. RAW the Mucolid can assault after being spawned, so it is a great area denier even to flyers. My only concern is that once you infiltrate it the enemy will throw a super tough unit near it (like an AV 13 vehicle) so that it's shooting is useless.
EDIT: Sprocysts don't have shrouded, I confused them with Mucolids.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, with the option of these drop pods, has anyone taken a look back at Genestealers? Depending on what else drops in on the same turn, you could have enough target priority issues to allow these guys to make it into combat.
They can outflank for free. If that doesn't work, why would adding a 75 point drop pod?
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, with the option of these drop pods, has anyone taken a look back at Genestealers? Depending on what else drops in on the same turn, you could have enough target priority issues to allow these guys to make it into combat.
They can outflank for free. If that doesn't work, why would adding a 75 point drop pod?
Before, an opponent could stay away from board edges and know they were safe for multiple turns. Now, genestealers can literally appear anywhere. But, the make-or-break in my mind is that you can now use Pods to deepstrike some Mal/Venom support and give them shrouded, which completely changes their toughness if they Pod into terrain.
Again, it's not something I'll be using anytime soon, but I would love to watch someone else try and run it to see if the threat overload works.
locarno24 wrote: 20 x Devourer-armed Termagants and strangler upgrades. Because nothing says "ninja attack" like five barbed stranglers and sixty bolter shots that you weren't expecting! Swap a couple out for a Prime if you want a bit more tactical control.
For 20 points you can outflank them (in fact you can outflank 30). Why pay an extra 55 points to drop pod them?
locarno24 wrote: Haruspex with Regeneration and Adrenal Glands. Theoretically an incredibly killy beast, the Haruspex fails on the table because it never, every makes it to the enemy.
Won't survive the turn he comes in. Why give upgrades to something that is just a distraction / bullet magnet?
locarno24 wrote: Pyrovores. Because they must have some use, and this (hopefully) is it. Half a dozen heavy flamers can make a right mess of....well...most things.
Its possible. I'm doubtful because we have access to more mobile templates in the form of the Crone, and to a lesser extent the TFex.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, with the option of these drop pods, has anyone taken a look back at Genestealers? Depending on what else drops in on the same turn, you could have enough target priority issues to allow these guys to make it into combat.
They can outflank for free. If that doesn't work, why would adding a 75 point drop pod?
Before, an opponent could stay away from board edges and know they were safe for multiple turns. Now, genestealers can literally appear anywhere. But, the make-or-break in my mind is that you can now use Pods to deepstrike some Mal/Venom support and give them shrouded, which completely changes their toughness if they Pod into terrain.
Again, it's not something I'll be using anytime soon, but I would love to watch someone else try and run it to see if the threat overload works.
I don't see it, because Genestealers never had the problem that they weren't expensive enough or they were too reliable. 2 drop pods plus a malan / venom is a huge tax for some genestealers. Add in the challenge of getting both drop pods to come in at the same time, and its seems like it would make genestealers worse, not better.
So basically, everything a Tyrannocyte can do, except without the amazing option of deepstriking a unit in with it?
Also that isn't a large blast once a game, it's a non-deepstriking Mucolid once a game.
Really not the same at all. First it spawns as well and second it has resonance which could be quite useful. And why would you need yo DS that Mucolid ... you place it 6" away from the cyst? My point was that yes, it spawns, but it has other abilities and uses as well.
To put it somewhere actually useful? Either way it's nowhere near the large blast it was described as. The only thing it does that the Tcyte doesn't is synapse amp, which is ridiculously unreliable and likely to have zero impact on about 99% of games. I mean if you have Synapse you have Synapse. This guy is unplayable. Bottom of the barrel unit, in any codex. Wow it can feebly defend itself with spores. Except shooting ofc, but not like anybody uses guns in 40k. Good thing too, because the benefits this thing add are just so worth defending!
This thing is spending points just to spend points.
It is shrouded, to be fair, which means it will very likely have a 2++ cover save, 3+ at worst, making it much more durable than normal SPods and thus better as a placeholder/Objective contester.
Personally I still won't be taking one, but I don't think it's a bad choice it all. RAW the Mucolid can assault after being spawned, so it is a great area denier even to flyers. My only concern is that once you infiltrate it the enemy will throw a super tough unit near it (like an AV 13 vehicle) so that it's shooting is useless.
The Mucolids have shrouded, Sporocysts do not unfortunately.
Good catch, you're correct. Damn, that's really disappointing. Might have to agree then, the Sporocyst won't be worth the points if it's only as durable as a normal SPod.
Good catch, you're correct. Damn, that's really disappointing. Might have to agree then, the Sporocyst won't be worth the points if it's only as durable as a normal SPod.
Basically a Sporocyst is a Tyrannocyte that replaces movement and deep striking another unit with a situational synapse range buff, and reliable spore spawning(3 regular mines or a Mucolid once per game). On the plus side it doesn't crap out like the Tervigon- it makes a set number every turn.
On the debate regarding Tyrannocytes, Mucolids, and Sporocysts --
Going by pictures at this point, it appears as if the Mucolid forms the center of a Tyrranocyte. This would mean that the ONLY way to get mucolids is to build the sporocysts instead of the tyrannocytes, which are by far the better MC in the kit.
As far as the "why deep strike X when it can outflank" argument - it's about placement. Outflanking is still somewhat random, and then it's only a 6" movement from a board edge. These are areas that are very easy to avoid if the enemy knows you're coming. Deep striking in a spore, then a 6" disembark grants infinitely more control over where your close combat or dakka unit ends up, as well as the enemy not being able to easily predict where you'll be before you get there.
tetrisphreak wrote: On the debate regarding Tyrannocytes, Mucolids, and Sporocysts --
Going by pictures at this point, it appears as if the Mucolid forms the center of a Tyrranocyte. This would mean that the ONLY way to get mucolids is to build the sporocysts instead of the tyrannocytes, which are by far the better MC in the kit.
Several ways to mitigate this-
You can always magnetize them(this doesn't solve the problem if you want to run Tyrannocytes AND Mucolids though).
Greenstuff a bottom on the Tyrannocyte. Heck you could model it like a Sporocyst(flat on the ground) with tentacles coming out the sides, or use spare Scything talons for "legs".
Mold tentacles for the Mucolid top.
Do nothing and just build the Sporocyst. Tell your opponents it's a Tyrannocyte.
tetrisphreak wrote: On the debate regarding Tyrannocytes, Mucolids, and Sporocysts --
Going by pictures at this point, it appears as if the Mucolid forms the center of a Tyrranocyte. This would mean that the ONLY way to get mucolids is to build the sporocysts instead of the tyrannocytes, which are by far the better MC in the kit.
Several ways to mitigate this-
You can always magnetize them(this doesn't solve the problem if you want to run Tyrannocytes AND Mucolids though).
Greenstuff a bottom on the Tyrannocyte. Heck you could model it like a Sporocyst(flat on the ground) with tentacles coming out the sides, or use spare Scything talons for "legs".
Mold tentacles for the Mucolid top.
Do nothing and just build the Sporocyst. Tell your opponents it's a Tyrannocyte.
I plan to buy Mucolids from recasters who will sell it to me at a reasonable price without having to buy a $70 kit for a 15 point model.
Now, obviously that's sliced my termagant wall by over a third, but in return, I can fit in two tyrannocytes. Whilst Tervigons aren't exactly the most devastating of creatures, with crushing claws they can play can-opener fairly efficiently, and with electroshock grubs they can crowd control fairly well. Landing two in an area and spawning two gaunt units can leave a section of an enemy's deployment zone under fairly meaningful threat.
Yes, it takes them out of the battle line, but it's not like tervigons will really put any pressure on an enemy until turn 3 unless they come to me.
For that matter, stripping off all non-essntial biomorphs lets me cram in a third tyrannocite. That leaves only one controlling the 'ground swarm', which feels kind of vulnerable, but it means the deep strike is more likely to have some punch behind it.
I think the Tyrannofex should do pretty well as 'cyte fodder, too. with two templates - one of them torrent - it can make a right mess. Granted it struggles in assaults, but it has an unholy effective wall of death overwatch and it is T6 with 6 wounds and a 2+ save, which means it takes a bloody lot of killing!
Here's hoping for some new formations including the big beasties! If this blood angels/tyranid box proves to be a thing, then maybe there'll be some sanctus reach fashion books. Anything giving Tyrannocites an equivalent of Drop Pod Assault would be terrifying...
locarno24 wrote: ... Anything giving Tyrannocites an equivalent of Drop Pod Assault would be terrifying.
And thus would the Tyranids go from being the "joke" army at tournaments to "OMGWTFBBQ" busted in many player opinions.
As a 5 year veteran to the hive fleets, I am okay with this if it happens.
Edit -- Oh my, I have loved lictors regardless of their mediocre status but can you imagine the rage when you see them used to infiltrate, then no-scatter pods come in within 6" of them on turn 1????
tetrisphreak wrote: On the debate regarding Tyrannocytes, Mucolids, and Sporocysts --
Going by pictures at this point, it appears as if the Mucolid forms the center of a Tyrranocyte. This would mean that the ONLY way to get mucolids is to build the sporocysts instead of the tyrannocytes, which are by far the better MC in the kit.
Several ways to mitigate this-
You can always magnetize them(this doesn't solve the problem if you want to run Tyrannocytes AND Mucolids though).
Greenstuff a bottom on the Tyrannocyte. Heck you could model it like a Sporocyst(flat on the ground) with tentacles coming out the sides, or use spare Scything talons for "legs".
Mold tentacles for the Mucolid top.
Do nothing and just build the Sporocyst. Tell your opponents it's a Tyrannocyte.
I plan to buy Mucolids from recasters who will sell it to me at a reasonable price without having to buy a $70 kit for a 15 point model.
Good catch, you're correct. Damn, that's really disappointing. Might have to agree then, the Sporocyst won't be worth the points if it's only as durable as a normal SPod.
Basically a Sporocyst is a Tyrannocyte that replaces movement and deep striking another unit with a situational synapse range buff, and reliable spore spawning(3 regular mines or a Mucolid once per game). On the plus side it doesn't crap out like the Tervigon- it makes a set number every turn.
On the negative side, those spores do absolutely nothing unlike scoring shooting sensibly moving assaulting Termagants. And even the Tervigon is a terrible, terrible unit and should never be played. This thing is 4x worse.
Good catch, you're correct. Damn, that's really disappointing. Might have to agree then, the Sporocyst won't be worth the points if it's only as durable as a normal SPod.
Basically a Sporocyst is a Tyrannocyte that replaces movement and deep striking another unit with a situational synapse range buff, and reliable spore spawning(3 regular mines or a Mucolid once per game). On the plus side it doesn't crap out like the Tervigon- it makes a set number every turn.
On the negative side, those spores do absolutely nothing unlike scoring shooting sensibly moving assaulting Termagants. And even the Tervigon is a terrible, terrible unit and should never be played. This thing is 4x worse.
They can occasionally shoot if something comes into range and line of sight. Same as a Tyrannocyte of course, but you can spawn mines to help wall off corridors/waste opponent shooting with no additional investment(buying a unit to deepstrike for example).
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, with the option of these drop pods, has anyone taken a look back at Genestealers? Depending on what else drops in on the same turn, you could have enough target priority issues to allow these guys to make it into combat.
They can outflank for free. If that doesn't work, why would adding a 75 point drop pod?
Before, an opponent could stay away from board edges and know they were safe for multiple turns. Now, genestealers can literally appear anywhere. But, the make-or-break in my mind is that you can now use Pods to deepstrike some Mal/Venom support and give them shrouded, which completely changes their toughness if they Pod into terrain.
Again, it's not something I'll be using anytime soon, but I would love to watch someone else try and run it to see if the threat overload works.
Stealers were buffed massssively by Spores. Not because you put them in it (you don't, they have infiltrate for a reason). You put the three Dakkafexes in them and suddenly you've solved the critical aspects of Genestealers, being lack of synergistic AT, and no assault grenades. 300 pts for 15x Large Pinning Blast shots a turn (5 hits, but remember even the ones that miss have to go somewhere, and we are on your opponents side of the board here as well), as well as providing mobility to your Carnifexes... The synergy between this and stealers is amazing and allows you to take like 60 Genestealers in the one army at 1850, givin us an even bigger buff to thing Stealers need the most, and that is more numbers. You may be better off with some living Arty for more pinning, or some screening Gargs mixed in there however.
Good catch, you're correct. Damn, that's really disappointing. Might have to agree then, the Sporocyst won't be worth the points if it's only as durable as a normal SPod.
Basically a Sporocyst is a Tyrannocyte that replaces movement and deep striking another unit with a situational synapse range buff, and reliable spore spawning(3 regular mines or a Mucolid once per game). On the plus side it doesn't crap out like the Tervigon- it makes a set number every turn.
On the negative side, those spores do absolutely nothing unlike scoring shooting sensibly moving assaulting Termagants. And even the Tervigon is a terrible, terrible unit and should never be played. This thing is 4x worse.
They can occasionally shoot if something comes into range and line of sight. Same as a Tyrannocyte of course, but you can spawn mines to help wall off corridors/waste opponent shooting with no additional investment(buying a unit to deepstrike for example).
So as you said, shoots as well as a Tyrannocyte except trades off the immeasurably useful ability to deepstrike any unit in the codex anywhere on the map, for the ability to spawn completely useless defensive mines to defend itself, who won't even be capable of doing this against shooting? Yeah, it's useless.
I wouldn't go so far as to call it useless, but it's usually outshined by other models for what it does. If I have an extra 100pts in a list, I might consider five infiltrating large pinning blasts that makes mini-mines if I didn't want anything else to start in reserves.
Rules question - can a Tyranid Prime hop out of a spore and join a unit of Shrikes right next to him? Can they join him? This sort of gak need comes up in my games, what's the ruling here
SHUPPET wrote: Rules question - can a Tyranid Prime hop out of a spore and join a unit of Shrikes right next to him? Can they join him? This sort of gak need comes up in my games, what's the ruling here
Yes. As long as he ends his move within 2" of the unit, as an IC he is eligbile to join that unit. End of the movement phase, i should say for clarity.
SHUPPET wrote: Rules question - can a Tyranid Prime hop out of a spore and join a unit of Shrikes right next to him? Can they join him? This sort of gak need comes up in my games, what's the ruling here
Yes, of course, as long as you can move into the required range to join the unit.
The Shrikes can't join the Prime - units don't join ICs.
The Prime joining the Shrikes is iffier - I'm on too many cold meds to process that info right now, but I'm leaning towards no on the turn he arrives.
Currently liking these options for the Tyrannocyte although needs play testing.
I need some more time to think on tis, perhaps there's something golden that I've missed.
1. Tyrant Guard - Perhaps some crushing claws and Toxin Sacs. Flyrant with Obiterax glides down to join them. Unit next turn charges a Wraith Knight or another suitable target.
Or just useful for additional wounds for your Flyrant when he gets low. Decent Melee threat also that can Auto LOS.
2. Venomthrope - Enjoy a 2+ jink before your Toxin Sacs/Obliterax Flyrants charges a Wraith Knight or other suitable target.
3. T'Fex - with Haywire, 2 flamers on a hard to kill MC.
SHUPPET wrote: Rules question - can a Tyranid Prime hop out of a spore and join a unit of Shrikes right next to him? Can they join him? This sort of gak need comes up in my games, what's the ruling here
Yes. As long as he ends his move within 2" of the unit, as an IC he is eligbile to join that unit. End of the movement phase, i should say for clarity.
This is ridiculously viable then in a list with triple DS Dakkafex (aka where Flyrants are less mandatory), you can just chuck the prime in another spore with like 17 Devilgants or 3 Pyrovores or a Venom something, put the pod on top of the Shrikes and shoot 27 BS5 S5 shots and get prepared for a big WS5 charge the next turn with Warriors. Could really hit hard.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, with the option of these drop pods, has anyone taken a look back at Genestealers? Depending on what else drops in on the same turn, you could have enough target priority issues to allow these guys to make it into combat.
They can outflank for free. If that doesn't work, why would adding a 75 point drop pod?
Before, an opponent could stay away from board edges and know they were safe for multiple turns. Now, genestealers can literally appear anywhere. But, the make-or-break in my mind is that you can now use Pods to deepstrike some Mal/Venom support and give them shrouded, which completely changes their toughness if they Pod into terrain.
Again, it's not something I'll be using anytime soon, but I would love to watch someone else try and run it to see if the threat overload works.
Stealers were buffed massssively by Spores. Not because you put them in it (you don't, they have infiltrate for a reason). You put the three Dakkafexes in them and suddenly you've solved the critical aspects of Genestealers, being lack of synergistic AT, and no assault grenades. 300 pts for 15x Large Pinning Blast shots a turn (5 hits, but remember even the ones that miss have to go somewhere, and we are on your opponents side of the board here as well), as well as providing mobility to your Carnifexes... The synergy between this and stealers is amazing and allows you to take like 60 Genestealers in the one army at 1850, givin us an even bigger buff to thing Stealers need the most, and that is more numbers. You may be better off with some living Arty for more pinning, or some screening Gargs mixed in there however.
Stealers could be pretty damn dope now.
You forget 80% of what you want Genestealers charging can't be pinned and another 15% only fails pinning tests 8% of the time. So it is a 5% solution to one of the problems of Genestealers, and one that we already had a solution for in various other ways.
I don't think the sporocyst is completely useless. I see it as an objective denial unit. You infiltrate it onto an objective in terrain then it self screens using spores while claiming a cover save. It then just hangs out shooting things all game while the spores harass the opponent forcing them to move away from the spores or waste shots killing the spores.
One question I have is can the sporocyst still spawn spores if it is in close combat? If so then your opponent has to shoot the cyst which takes time or assault it and get blasted by spores each turn.
don't think the sporocyst is completely useless. I see it as an objective denial unit. You infiltrate it onto an objective in terrain then it self screens using spores while claiming a cover save. It then just hangs out shooting things all game while the spores harass the opponent forcing them to move away from the spores or waste shots killing the spores.
Exactly what I've been saying. It is both an objective denial and an area denial unit. Hardly useless - saying it is 4xworse than any unit in the codex is hyperbole. If you don't like it then don't use it but it will fit in some lists nicely ...
Five pinning templates for 100pts isn't too shabby. Tyrannocyte does the same, but you don't always want to put more units into reserves. It can find a home, but I do think it's quite niche.
Five pinning templates for 100pts isn't too shabby.
Well I see no reason to take the deathspitters unless you want to save points - they kill 1.67 meqs on average - not very good.
But why would you take a barbed strangler - pinning is situational. It is not as godd against meq/teq/transports as the venom cannons.
Venom cannons allow no armor save unless you are 3+ or better and wounds common infantry on 2+. Heck, it wounds Daemon princes on a 3+. Granted it is a smaller blast but you have five.
Mostly to pile more wounds. I would imagine it might depend on your army comp- Dimachaerons would appreciate pinned units(if not spudding in themselves). The larger template would be less worried about scatter as well.
tetrisphreak wrote: On the debate regarding Tyrannocytes, Mucolids, and Sporocysts --
Going by pictures at this point, it appears as if the Mucolid forms the center of a Tyrranocyte. This would mean that the ONLY way to get mucolids is to build the sporocysts instead of the tyrannocytes, which are by far the better MC in the kit.
Several ways to mitigate this-
You can always magnetize them(this doesn't solve the problem if you want to run Tyrannocytes AND Mucolids though).
Greenstuff a bottom on the Tyrannocyte. Heck you could model it like a Sporocyst(flat on the ground) with tentacles coming out the sides, or use spare Scything talons for "legs".
Mold tentacles for the Mucolid top.
Do nothing and just build the Sporocyst. Tell your opponents it's a Tyrannocyte.
I plan to buy Mucolids from recasters who will sell it to me at a reasonable price without having to buy a $70 kit for a 15 point model.
tetrisphreak wrote: On the debate regarding Tyrannocytes, Mucolids, and Sporocysts --
Going by pictures at this point, it appears as if the Mucolid forms the center of a Tyrranocyte. This would mean that the ONLY way to get mucolids is to build the sporocysts instead of the tyrannocytes, which are by far the better MC in the kit.
Several ways to mitigate this-
You can always magnetize them(this doesn't solve the problem if you want to run Tyrannocytes AND Mucolids though).
Greenstuff a bottom on the Tyrannocyte. Heck you could model it like a Sporocyst(flat on the ground) with tentacles coming out the sides, or use spare Scything talons for "legs".
Mold tentacles for the Mucolid top.
Do nothing and just build the Sporocyst. Tell your opponents it's a Tyrannocyte.
I plan to buy Mucolids from recasters who will sell it to me at a reasonable price without having to buy a $70 kit for a 15 point model.
5 Venom Cannons, hitting 1.5 models apiece (best case scenario) so 7.5 hits, 6.3 wounds, about 2 models dead
5 Stranglers, hitting 2.5 models apiece (best case scenario) so 12.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, about 2 models dead and a pinning check.
It depends on if you need more light AT (Venom Cannons) or more pinning weapons (Stranglers). Since most Tyranid lists don't need help against light armor, but do need help assaulting into terrain - pinning weapons win.
They fire all five at the closest unit from the base. They can't fire overwatch or in any other way. I personally got confused by the white dwarf side note, but just using the actual instinctive fire rule it's fairly clear.
Spoiler:
"Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the closest enemy unit within range and line of sight. The shots are resolved at the end of the shooting phase before morale checks are taken.
Each weapon can fire at a different target unit, but not in any other way or at any other time."
Verviedi wrote: Is it a dick move to take this list in a 750 point game?
HQ-
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs
Troops-
Rippers with Deep Strike and Spinefists
Rippers with Deep Strike and Spinefists
Heavy Support-
Carnifex with TLBLDevs
Once I took that list, sans the Carnifex and added the Dimachaeron at 750. I've also gone unbound, trading a ripper squad for a Venomthrope. If you do the Dime, you don't have the points for the EGrubs but who cares? You won't likely be going against a Land Raider and anything else the Flyrants can light the rear armor up
I'm actually with Shuppet here and interested to see what this does for Genestealers. I have a number of lists to try and that one isn't number one, mostly because I still need to pick up a few models to run it, but imagine:
Annnd I just realized that I don't have 4 FA slots.....HOWEVER, this is what Mucolids do for us guys. Oh you want to self ally? Well I can already do that in this list with 2 HQ and 3 troops. But say I only had 2 troops or needed 2 more. You're always going to bring 2 Flyrants, or at the very least 2 HQs (probably) so for 15 points we get an allied slot. For 30 (and 2 strength 8 ap 3 blasts mind you) we get a second CAD (if allowed). That is pretty powerful
Anyhow this list is probably not super good but everything sans the Dimachaerons will be in assault (or have failed their random charge length) by turn 2 in all likelihood. And on the opponent's turn 2 (if he went first) he'll have to not shoot at the Dimachaerons, otherwise he'll just be tied up in combat in the bottom of 2 and top of 3 anyways. Not a lot of players have the discipline to do that against 2 Dimachaerons. I hope you guys are sensing a theme with my lists by now haha
ductvader wrote: Did we resolve the 5 weapons versus ability to fire 2 situation?
I missed that...
I don' think there is a clear RAW answer to that problem, but I think everybody agrees RAI that all 5 can shoot.
It is a poorly written rule that was further complicated by White Dwarf explaining that range is from the gun barrel instead of the model as if it was a vehicle. There will be numerous YMDC threads about it until GW releases a meaningful FAQ or the Sun burns itself out, and our species is rendered extinct, whichever comes first.
Iechine wrote: I like to think of the Tyrannocite as an expensive biomorph that gives you deepstrike and 5 deathspitters...would I pay 75 pts for that upgrade? Yep.
Turn 2 typically has my 3 Tyrants in the air being dicks to everything on the ground mid field. So nows when I want to keep allowing that to happen, deepstriking MC(s) are a great distraction.
Still havent decided on what MC to send in though.
Assuming FW is not allowed and in a competitive setting:
Dakkafex Classic devourers mulch and can be useful against certain targets, and no one likes a charge from one. They are squishy. One fex alone without cover just cant take the front and center firepower many armies can throw out.
Tyrannofex Tough as nails and his acid spray would reach whatever you needed to after deep striking. He sucks at combat and has low damage output against a lot of common builds.
Exocrine One of the main reasons I never use this guy is his 24" range. Now that he can arrive and spit out AP2, he can be really helpful in removing a variety of targets your Flyrants have already softened up See Carnifex, plus he sucks at combat
Toxicrene The potential for instant death on a variety of targets is promising. He's also a wide model that can use the Tyrannocite for cover when he comes in, ensuring the 3+ cover save at least. He assault potential is promising, wounding anything on a 2+ with AP2 and potential for ID cant be overlooked. He's even squishier than most of our MC's. Some units he just has no business assaulting, and without his cover save his survival looks grim.
Haruspex It's a Haruspex.
A tourney list for consideration:
1850
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, with the option of these drop pods, has anyone taken a look back at Genestealers? Depending on what else drops in on the same turn, you could have enough target priority issues to allow these guys to make it into combat.
I've been giving some hard thought to a Brood with a Brood Lord as a possible Pod unit, it's Almost good enough to use as an Infiltrater...maybe as DS it will finally be "good enough". (I'm thinking x7, Broodlord)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Verviedi wrote: Is it a dick move to take this list in a 750 point game?
HQ-
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs
Troops-
Rippers with Deep Strike and Spinefists
Rippers with Deep Strike and Spinefists
Heavy Support-
Carnifex with TLBLDevs
A little bit. Basicly taking FMCs is the "issue" at low point levels very few things can do much of anything. Depends on your local "meta" just how bad this is though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote: 5 Venom Cannons, hitting 1.5 models apiece (best case scenario) so 7.5 hits, 6.3 wounds, about 2 models dead
5 Stranglers, hitting 2.5 models apiece (best case scenario) so 12.5 hits, 6.25 wounds, about 2 models dead and a pinning check.
It depends on if you need more light AT (Venom Cannons) or more pinning weapons (Stranglers). Since most Tyranid lists don't need help against light armor, but do need help assaulting into terrain - pinning weapons win.
Word. Outside of LAN, I most always want Stranglers.
Annnd I just realized that I don't have 4 FA slots.....HOWEVER, this is what Mucolids do for us guys. Oh you want to self ally? Well I can already do that in this list with 2 HQ and 3 troops. But say I only had 2 troops or needed 2 more. You're always going to bring 2 Flyrants, or at the very least 2 HQs (probably) so for 15 points we get an allied slot. For 30 (and 2 strength 8 ap 3 blasts mind you) we get a second CAD (if allowed). That is pretty powerful
Anyhow this list is probably not super good but everything sans the Dimachaerons will be in assault (or have failed their random charge length) by turn 2 in all likelihood. And on the opponent's turn 2 (if he went first) he'll have to not shoot at the Dimachaerons, otherwise he'll just be tied up in combat in the bottom of 2 and top of 3 anyways. Not a lot of players have the discipline to do that against 2 Dimachaerons. I hope you guys are sensing a theme with my lists by now haha
Overall, I am liking the threat overload that this type of list presents. The list has got the potential to be terrifying for some lists to handle. I'm also curious as to much more effective genestealers will become with the spores in the lists.
Verviedi wrote: Is it a dick move to take this list in a 750 point game?
HQ-
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs
Troops-
Rippers with Deep Strike and Spinefists
Rippers with Deep Strike and Spinefists
Heavy Support-
Carnifex with TLBLDevs
It depends on your meta. If you are playing in a casual environment, then yeah, 2 flyrants at 750 can be too much for many people.
However, if the players that you normally play against are more experienced players who run somewhat competitive armies as well, then you're probably ok.
Now, obviously that's sliced my termagant wall by over a third, but in return, I can fit in two tyrannocytes. Whilst Tervigons aren't exactly the most devastating of creatures, with crushing claws they can play can-opener fairly efficiently, and with electroshock grubs they can crowd control fairly well. Landing two in an area and spawning two gaunt units can leave a section of an enemy's deployment zone under fairly meaningful threat.
Yes, it takes them out of the battle line, but it's not like tervigons will really put any pressure on an enemy until turn 3 unless they come to me.
For that matter, stripping off all non-essntial biomorphs lets me cram in a third tyrannocite. That leaves only one controlling the 'ground swarm', which feels kind of vulnerable, but it means the deep strike is more likely to have some punch behind it.
I think the Tyrannofex should do pretty well as 'cyte fodder, too. with two templates - one of them torrent - it can make a right mess. Granted it struggles in assaults, but it has an unholy effective wall of death overwatch and it is T6 with 6 wounds and a 2+ save, which means it takes a bloody lot of killing!
Here's hoping for some new formations including the big beasties! If this blood angels/tyranid box proves to be a thing, then maybe there'll be some sanctus reach fashion books. Anything giving Tyrannocites an equivalent of Drop Pod Assault would be terrifying...
That's an interesting list. Not very balanced, but with that many bodies/tervigons on the floor, it will be problematic for many armies.
I'd recommend dropping at least 1 tervigon and adding some support elements like malanthropes or whatnot into your list.
Verviedi wrote: Please tell me why this list will fail horribly at killing GKs.
HQ-
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs (240)
Flyrant with TLBLDevs + eGrubs (240)
Troops-
Rippers w/ DS (45)
Rippers w/ DS (45)
Elites-
Venomthrope (45)
Zoanthrope (50)
Heavy Support-
Exocrine (170)
Mawloc (140)
Exocrine (170)
Yeah, that list should work fairly well against the Grey Knights.
Exocrine w/Tyrannocite and Venom Cannons
Exocrine w/Tyrannocite and Venom Cannons
Mawloc
Mawloc
With points to spare...Its an obvious beta strike army. Perhaps lose a Mawloc for a large gargoyle brood for flexibility?
It's a pretty good list, though personally, I'd rather put something a little shorter in range into my tyrannocites. The exocrine already has a 30" range (up to 36" with Onslaught). It may be better to setup him up behind cover shooting than to pod him in where he's vulnerable to assault (or at least getting tied up). Units that benefit more from the pods are short-ranged shooters (i.e. dakkafex, pyrovores and t-fexes) and dedicated assault units or even the tervigon.
To be even more clear, I think that Genestealers got better because your opponent has to make a tough decision as to whether to deal with them or whatever came down in the pod. Putting Genestealers in the pod makes that math much easier for your opponent and will likely get them into combat even later, as they can turn 2 charge if the circumstances are right
Pretty sure that he didn't coin the term, since I and others have been using it for years now, but that tactic definitely got a big boost with the new releases.
I'm irrationally excited about the possibility of dropping 3-4 spores in with Barbed Stranglers for absolutely ridiculous longer-range large blast spam.
I've never really run 'competitive' lists - one of my favorites is all Carnifexes and Walkrants with Stranglethorns - and an extra 15-20 auto-firing, scattering and somewhat uncontrollable large blasts is making me very happy. And now I have a reason to finish the three spore pods I had almost completed last year - this is a good week.
Yup, the current issue with nids is that for the most part threats operate on the same 'plane', as in they mostly approach along a similar vector from a similar direction at a relatively similar speed, and there really are only a few exceptions to this rule. A quality opponent can easily prioritize targets in these situations.
The spores mean that units that traditionally arrive to the party late due to their slowness can now be amongst the first to arrive, it completely screws with and changes the way your opponent has to prioritize
But it probably wasn't until Reece published an article on it on BoLS as well as his own Frontline Gaming blog (of which it was based on my game against him above) that it received more notoriety:
Now by no means am I the only one who came up with this strategy. I'm sure many people ran similar type builds back then and probably even before I started playing the game. And there definitely could be others who have coined similar names for their strategies. However, I believe I may have been the one to popularize the term 'MTO' through my battle reports as well as through Reece's article on it.
Giving credit where it's due, I think Jy2 definitely popularised that term even if others were saying it
Actually using it with Nids though is the kind of opposite of what he does however and I think the term gets thrown around a lot because people want a more official way of calling their lists "badass".
Can anyone link me a batrep of a game where a malanthrope in a bastion is used? With only 6 inches around and the fact that the bastion can't move, do you keep a lot of units around it for a turn or two? I haven't bought a mal yet and use a venomthrope trailing right behind my Dima for now.
Also, would infiltrating Genestealers and dropping a Dima be useful? That way, the Dima could take fire and probably still make it to combat and the Genestealers clean up whatever he hasn't finished off?
Noctem wrote: Can anyone link me a batrep of a game where a malanthrope in a bastion is used? With only 6 inches around and the fact that the bastion can't move, do you keep a lot of units around it for a turn or two? I haven't bought a mal yet and use a venomthrope trailing right behind my Dima for now.
Also, would infiltrating Genestealers and dropping a Dima be useful? That way, the Dima could take fire and probably still make it to combat and the Genestealers clean up whatever he hasn't finished off?
Doubtful on the last, the Dima is aggressive but pays far more than average per wound, just like Stealers, using them together will likely just give your opponent good targets for all their weaponry, whereas all Stealers will force cost ineffecient shooting from their AT if they try stop your tidal wave, and vice versa with all Dimas and anti infantry fire. Also, it allows them to focus whichever one of the units will be less threatening to their army, and you are better off not giving them this choice. Glass cannon units are better off taken in numbers, yeah it's spammy or whatever but it's part of mitigating their fragility. I know it sounds weird calling Dimas fragile, but look at it this way, it's the same amount of points as 3 Mawlocs each with the same durability, so there is a very relevant cost to the durability of your army when taking Dimas. It's about getting enough out of their aggression to make up for, mixing and matching different types of units puts too much options in your opponents hands to deal with it.
I have a quick question.
If I take a bastion with an escape hatch and have a malanthrope inside it does the shrouded and synapse bubble also extend from the escape hatch?
Cheers
Noctem wrote: Can anyone link me a batrep of a game where a malanthrope in a bastion is used? With only 6 inches around and the fact that the bastion can't move, do you keep a lot of units around it for a turn or two? I haven't bought a mal yet and use a venomthrope trailing right behind my Dima for now.
Also, would infiltrating Genestealers and dropping a Dima be useful? That way, the Dima could take fire and probably still make it to combat and the Genestealers clean up whatever he hasn't finished off?
Doubtful on the last, the Dima is aggressive but pays far more than average per wound, just like Stealers, using them together will likely just give your opponent good targets for all their weaponry, whereas all Stealers will force cost ineffecient shooting from their AT if they try stop your tidal wave, and vice versa with all Dimas and anti infantry fire. Also, it allows them to focus whichever one of the units will be less threatening to their army, and you are better off not giving them this choice. Glass cannon units are better off taken in numbers, yeah it's spammy or whatever but it's part of mitigating their fragility. I know it sounds weird calling Dimas fragile, but look at it this way, it's the same amount of points as 3 Mawlocs each with the same durability, so there is a very relevant cost to the durability of your army when taking Dimas. It's about getting enough out of their aggression to make up for, mixing and matching different types of units puts too much options in your opponents hands to deal with it.
That makes sense! I see myself picking up a second Dima... although I just picked up the Tau Y'Vahra heh.
I'll be honest, If I was taking genestealers I'd reach for the Formation Detachments. If you use ruins in any meaningful quantity in your gaming group, Manufactorum Genestealers are superb, and really help with the whole 'threat overload' level.
Granted, you're almost certainly giving up first blood, but even then you're in a 4+ cover ruin, and can go to ground then use Dominion to stand back up again, provided you're not going to need to move (and with fleet, move through cover and setting up within 6" of the enemy, you shouldn't!)
The tervigon list - yeah, I realise I could make it substantially better by subbing out one tervigon for a pair of malanthropes and throwing shrouded across the whole army; it's one thing I've been thinking about for a while. Alternatively, putting one or more toxicrenes into the line provides a meaningful assault threat besides 'tons of bodies'.
Lastly, I've been wondering about the Leviathan Rising Incubator Nodes. My first response was that they're not great because you are essentially fielding a combined arms detachement - 1 x Tervigon, 3 x Termagants. You lose objective secured, but I tend to find the original broods get shot to buggery over the course of the game, so it's nice not to have to track which is which - and 3 ten strong broods is probably more tactically useful than one of thirty. I'm not sure about the Hyper-Progenitive command benefit, though; as whilst it makes broods a bit bigger (on average) it makes you a bit more likely to exhaust the tervigon (on average).
Neither is that big a deal, though. My main concern is that I'm not sure it can take tyrannocites - it's generally acknowledged that a squad in a formation can take a dedicated transport if it normally has that option, but a tyrannocite isn't a dedicated transport.
Zero Objective secured units but it packs quite a punch.
Crones help with flyers and vector strike Wraith Knights, Broadsides, Serpents...
Toxicrenes really want to eat a Wraith Knight, 2+ cover saves when landing sitting behind a pod or in ruins.
I quite like the list because its a little less reliant on the Flyrants.
Zero Objective secured units but it packs quite a punch. Crones help with flyers and vector strike Wraith Knights, Broadsides, Serpents... Toxicrenes really want to eat a Wraith Knight, 2+ cover saves when landing sitting behind a pod or in ruins. I quite like the list because its a little less reliant on the Flyrants.
I would probably change one of the Hive Crones to a Mawloc with Adrenal Glands, just to have a Pieplate so you can have some defence against Hordes - or at least can take out a lot of the horde before they tie up your Toxicrene.
In addition, an S6 Ap2 is always good to have for Terminators and stuff
Toxicrenes in pods are actually likely to do more damage against hordes who generally have low armour. AP2 blasts are better for hitting elite units, however this isn't really Mawloc's design either, hes more of an excellently priced all rounder, the Exocrine is far more better for killing elite units, and otherwise the Toxicrene should be fine I think.
Yep, Mawlocs are a little too unreliable otherwise I would run them in every list.
I still run them in an 1850 Skyblight list but there I try to take advantage of a Lictor in reserve and start the Mawlocs on the board. They tunnel turn 2 and pop up next to the Lictor turn 3.
Not perfect but it's fun and normally enemy is far too distracted to kill the Lictor.
The blast is definitely not reliable. It is however a pretty good added bonus as the model is costly pretty decently even without it. Definitely a well priced all rounder that can go in any list imo, cheap 6 T6 wounds with potential to threaten a lot of things or at worst case scenario be an excellent cheap DS tarpit
Agreed. two poison (2+) pieplates make for pretty damn good crowd control, and with 6 attacks each and the ability to pop miasma if they get mobbed, they probably won't be tied up for long...
locarno24 wrote: Agreed. two poison (2+) pieplates make for pretty damn good crowd control, and with 6 attacks each and the ability to pop miasma if they get mobbed, they probably won't be tied up for long...
Not to mention 30 shots from Death Spitters before he gets Tarpitted.
Crones and Flyrants can also aid to thin the crowd on the turn they drop in.
So what would be the best thing to put in the tyranocyte? I WAS thinking Dima but I am not quite sure... Do not really want to spend over 100 on the model lol.
I usually play against SW or Orks and neither have a lot of armor at all, only occasionally.
beardman3000 wrote: So what would be the best thing to put in the tyranocyte? I WAS thinking Dima but I am not quite sure... Do not really want to spend over 100 on the model lol.
I usually play against SW or Orks and neither have a lot of armor at all, only occasionally.
Any melee unit that suffers from slow ground speed - warriors, dima/haruspex/toxi etc. Swarmlord is good too.
Any shooty unit that suffers from low range - dakka fexes, devilgants, zoeys, exocrine, tyrannofex.
beardman3000 wrote: So what would be the best thing to put in the tyranocyte? I WAS thinking Dima but I am not quite sure... Do not really want to spend over 100 on the model lol.
I usually play against SW or Orks and neither have a lot of armor at all, only occasionally.
What you really want is Living Artillery. Biovores wreck Orks and trade well with anything in Wolves, and Exocrines wreck any more elite infantry. Tyrannocytes not even going to be that great in this match up, they have to come to you regardless, as such the only real point to using one would be getting rear armour shots or pumping firepower into a backfield unit, I'd say Dakkafex or Exocrine for this role.
Essentially - anything which doesn't deep strike or fly on its own.
I'd agree with the comment about devilgaunts - I don't have access to Hive Commander because I don't have a Hive Tyrant. If you do, however, it's a cheaper way to bring up those submachinegun toting critters.
Fex aren't bad, but since the 'cyte is limited to one model, I'd rather stick something bigger in. Dakkafex can make devourer range pretty swiftly anyway.
given that you'll be really in people's faces, is Bioplasma a thoughts worth looking at? Yes, all right, Exocrine bioplasma cannons fire a bigger blast a longer way - but if you're coming in by tyrannocyte with several melee carnifici, you can equip thrthem with bioplasma almost as an afterthought.
locarno24 wrote: Fex aren't bad, but since the 'cyte is limited to one model, I'd rather stick something bigger in. Dakkafex can make devourer range pretty swiftly anyway.
Because Dakkfexes and Dakkaflyrants are our best anti-tank, being able to drop a dakkafex behind a vehicle to get back armor sounds pretty good. Also, because Dakkafexes want to shoot instead of run, getting them to charge range is much slower than something like a Dimacharon.
The key is what you start on the ground with. I was wondering if Deathleaper's Assassin Brood might be a good idea - 5 solo lictors and paranoia-boy himself. Just as a many-small-unit threat, it's unlikely the enemy can flatten them all in one turn, probably not in two, and solo lictor models are easy to hide and get close to the enemy.
On the other hand, it's also not far shy of 400 points.
I suspect drop-heavy forces aren't going to work because of the price per unit you're paying for heavy lift. Using spores to bring in two monstrous creatures instead of walking is affordable - much more than that really starts to bite into your budget.
The key is what you start on the ground with. I was wondering if Deathleaper's Assassin Brood might be a good idea - 5 solo lictors and paranoia-boy himself. Just as a many-small-unit threat, it's unlikely the enemy can flatten them all in one turn, probably not in two, and solo lictor models are easy to hide and get close to the enemy.
On the other hand, it's also not far shy of 400 points.
I suspect drop-heavy forces aren't going to work because of the price per unit you're paying for heavy lift. Using spores to bring in two monstrous creatures instead of walking is affordable - much more than that really starts to bite into your budget.
Exactly, points get out of control quickly.
A couple of pods I think is enough, perhaps different elements in the list so you can choose what to pod depending on army faced.
Or just dropping in something that's an all rounder like a DakkaFex.
Personally I'll be play testing the Toxicrenes in a pod for a while and see how that fairs.
beardman3000 wrote: So what would be the best thing to put in the tyranocyte? I WAS thinking Dima but I am not quite sure... Do not really want to spend over 100 on the model lol.
I usually play against SW or Orks and neither have a lot of armor at all, only occasionally.
What you really want is Living Artillery. Biovores wreck Orks and trade well with anything in Wolves, and Exocrines wreck any more elite infantry. Tyrannocytes not even going to be that great in this match up, they have to come to you regardless, as such the only real point to using one would be getting rear armour shots or pumping firepower into a backfield unit, I'd say Dakkafex or Exocrine for this role.
I already run the Living Artillery....
as of now I have
HQ: Winged Dakka'rant, Thorax Hive 240
Elite: Zoey Brood: x2 100
Elite: Veno Brood: x2 90 (you can split this into two, if you wish)
The key is what you start on the ground with. I was wondering if Deathleaper's Assassin Brood might be a good idea - 5 solo lictors and paranoia-boy himself. Just as a many-small-unit threat, it's unlikely the enemy can flatten them all in one turn, probably not in two, and solo lictor models are easy to hide and get close to the enemy.
On the other hand, it's also not far shy of 400 points.
I suspect drop-heavy forces aren't going to work because of the price per unit you're paying for heavy lift. Using spores to bring in two monstrous creatures instead of walking is affordable - much more than that really starts to bite into your budget.
Exactly, points get out of control quickly.
A couple of pods I think is enough, perhaps different elements in the list so you can choose what to pod depending on army faced.
Or just dropping in something that's an all rounder like a DakkaFex.
Personally I'll be play testing the Toxicrenes in a pod for a while and see how that fairs.
Let me know how that works.... I was going to do the same thing !
Like some keep a record of win/loss/draw ratio in their signatures, I'm considering just adding a count for how many Wraith Knights my Toxicrenes manage to eat
Like some keep a record of win/loss/draw ratio in their signatures, I'm considering just adding a count for how many Wraith Knights my Toxicrenes manage to eat
If we want to drop something in to hunt MCs, I say we use...
Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant guard an incredibly overlooked unit. As soon as people buy their Tyrants wings, they forget about Guard completely. But, for their points they are an incredibly beefy unit. For 179 points + 75 for pod you can drop in 3 Tyrant Guard with poison and a single Lash Whip/Bonesword. The unit is just as durable as an MC, especially with cover and shrouded, but will almost always be a lesser target priority than most MCs you should be dropping with them, They'll put out a ton of attacks against anything that comes at them and can easily kill a Wraithknight with the LW/BS. No characters to challenge out, can't be meltabombed, and in a pinch you can attach a Flyrant to protect a Warlord point.
I think I'll have to experiment with dropping in a TGuard unit and two dakkafex, plus malanthropes, to really mess with someone.
jifel wrote: If we want to drop something in to hunt MCs, I say we use...
Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant guard an incredibly overlooked unit. As soon as people buy their Tyrants wings, they forget about Guard completely. But, for their points they are an incredibly beefy unit. For 179 points + 75 for pod you can drop in 3 Tyrant Guard with poison and a single Lash Whip/Bonesword. The unit is just as durable as an MC, especially with cover and shrouded, but will almost always be a lesser target priority than most MCs you should be dropping with them, They'll put out a ton of attacks against anything that comes at them and can easily kill a Wraithknight with the LW/BS. No characters to challenge out, can't be meltabombed, and in a pinch you can attach a Flyrant to protect a Warlord point.
I think I'll have to experiment with dropping in a TGuard unit and two dakkafex, plus malanthropes, to really mess with someone.
I like the idea of Tyrant Guard in a pod (Perhaps Crushing claws and Toxin Sacs for 4+ to wound AP2) with a Flyrant gliding down to join them.
Perhaps to wack something. Perhaps because he's low on wounds.
Or just vanilla Tyrant Guard would be useful in this sense.
I agree with you, could be useful.
Trouble is, you want 3 which is 150 points.
That's nearly a Toxicrene which is potentially more useful.
jifel wrote: If we want to drop something in to hunt MCs, I say we use...
Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant guard an incredibly overlooked unit. As soon as people buy their Tyrants wings, they forget about Guard completely. But, for their points they are an incredibly beefy unit. For 179 points + 75 for pod you can drop in 3 Tyrant Guard with poison and a single Lash Whip/Bonesword. The unit is just as durable as an MC, especially with cover and shrouded, but will almost always be a lesser target priority than most MCs you should be dropping with them, They'll put out a ton of attacks against anything that comes at them and can easily kill a Wraithknight with the LW/BS. No characters to challenge out, can't be meltabombed, and in a pinch you can attach a Flyrant to protect a Warlord point.
I think I'll have to experiment with dropping in a TGuard unit and two dakkafex, plus malanthropes, to really mess with someone.
I like the idea of Tyrant Guard in a pod (Perhaps Crushing claws and Toxin Sacs for 4+ to wound AP2) with a Flyrant gliding down to join them.
Perhaps to wack something. Perhaps because he's low on wounds.
Or just vanilla Tyrant Guard would be useful in this sense.
I agree with you, could be useful.
Trouble is, you want 3 which is 150 points.
That's nearly a Toxicrene which is potentially more useful.
If this is true (and it seems like it may well be ) This would be extremely cool. I might just start fielding "Psycho" lists full time. Even if it just turns out to be a box of three dual use figs, it will be a very welcome release.
jifel wrote: If we want to drop something in to hunt MCs, I say we use...
Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant guard an incredibly overlooked unit. As soon as people buy their Tyrants wings, they forget about Guard completely. But, for their points they are an incredibly beefy unit. For 179 points + 75 for pod you can drop in 3 Tyrant Guard with poison and a single Lash Whip/Bonesword. The unit is just as durable as an MC, especially with cover and shrouded, but will almost always be a lesser target priority than most MCs you should be dropping with them, They'll put out a ton of attacks against anything that comes at them and can easily kill a Wraithknight with the LW/BS. No characters to challenge out, can't be meltabombed, and in a pinch you can attach a Flyrant to protect a Warlord point.
I think I'll have to experiment with dropping in a TGuard unit and two dakkafex, plus malanthropes, to really mess with someone.
I like the idea of Tyrant Guard in a pod (Perhaps Crushing claws and Toxin Sacs for 4+ to wound AP2) with a Flyrant gliding down to join them.
Perhaps to wack something. Perhaps because he's low on wounds.
Or just vanilla Tyrant Guard would be useful in this sense.
I agree with you, could be useful.
Trouble is, you want 3 which is 150 points.
That's nearly a Toxicrene which is potentially more useful.
If this is true (and it seems like it may well be ) This would be extremely cool. I might just start fielding "Psycho" lists full time. Even if it just turns out to be a box of three dual use figs, it will be a very welcome release.
I'll just leave this here:
via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
The box kit for tyranids coming out next weekend is a Venomthrope-Zoanthrope dual kit that will come with 3 models. The exciting part is that there is a new zoanthrope character upgrade called a Neurothrope, which very much sounds like the old Doom of Malanti. it comes with a spirit leech -warp charge 1, that targets an enemy unit within 18". Leadership check on 3d6 or suffer a wound by each point the test was failed with no armour or cover saves. Each wound also adds 1 to your dice pool for Warp Blasts.
jifel wrote: If we want to drop something in to hunt MCs, I say we use...
Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant guard an incredibly overlooked unit. As soon as people buy their Tyrants wings, they forget about Guard completely. But, for their points they are an incredibly beefy unit. For 179 points + 75 for pod you can drop in 3 Tyrant Guard with poison and a single Lash Whip/Bonesword. The unit is just as durable as an MC, especially with cover and shrouded, but will almost always be a lesser target priority than most MCs you should be dropping with them, They'll put out a ton of attacks against anything that comes at them and can easily kill a Wraithknight with the LW/BS. No characters to challenge out, can't be meltabombed, and in a pinch you can attach a Flyrant to protect a Warlord point.
I think I'll have to experiment with dropping in a TGuard unit and two dakkafex, plus malanthropes, to really mess with someone.
I like the idea of Tyrant Guard in a pod (Perhaps Crushing claws and Toxin Sacs for 4+ to wound AP2) with a Flyrant gliding down to join them.
Perhaps to wack something. Perhaps because he's low on wounds.
Or just vanilla Tyrant Guard would be useful in this sense.
I agree with you, could be useful.
Trouble is, you want 3 which is 150 points.
That's nearly a Toxicrene which is potentially more useful.
If this is true (and it seems like it may well be ) This would be extremely cool. I might just start fielding "Psycho" lists full time. Even if it just turns out to be a box of three dual use figs, it will be a very welcome release.
First new release I am really excited about. Toxi and Mala release are a bit of a let down for rules, the Tyrannicyte a bit ho-hum for being a plain ugly model but possibly use floating gunboat. but this will be ordered.
jy2 wrote: What is up with all these new Tyranid units?
I must've been a good boy lately.
With the Tyranid v Blood Angels box coming and no new Codex on the horizon for the bugs, it's pretty much just to get the interest back in Nid's favor for the release cycle. Also, with Chapterhouse going under, they have no reason not to bring back "Doom" (becuase let's be honest, that's what the Neruothrope is) and the Drop Pod, now with new models.
Heavy
Mawloc
Mawloc
T-Fex- Acid, AG, Regen, Shreddershards
Assassin brood
D-leaper
Lictor x5
The list totals out to 1850.
So the idea is having the lictors all split up since that formation doesn't make them stick together, generally be overwhelming targets for the enemy, the ones that survive will provide a bunch of options for scatterless deepstrike. Obviously the idea of getting the T-fex in close with the pod would be desireable I could drop the zoan's for it, since their role is primarily babysitting the T-fex to begin with. But, i would be losing out on the batteries for my Flyrants also. at the same time i could take out the spore mines (trolol) and a zoan or a unit of rippers, but i'd be hesitant to drop below 4 troops. I actually really like the options of the spore mines to drop a S9 blast on a unit close to a lictor though, they just provide a lot of unexpected versatility. Before the advent of the pod, it was mostly fishing for MoA warlord trait for the T-Fex, with the zoanthropes as a just-in-case when i didn't get it. Any thoughts on it or input would be more than welcome.
Side question...where is it 'confirmed' that Mucolids are troop choices?
Try as I might, I just cant find anything better to drop in than a Dakkafex. A turn 2 Carnifex in the midst of your army sucks for most anyone and has to be dealt with, which means Flyrants have free reign for another turn.
I've settled on this for starters (Non FW allowed) 1850:
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Venomthrope
Bastion w/comms
Rippers w/DS Rippers w/DS Mucolid
23 Gargoyles
Crone
Dakkafex w/Tyrannocite
Dakkafex w/Tyrannocite
Mawloc
I like to think this is an extremely flexible, TAC list with a strong capacity for anti air/armor/infantry, board control and scoring capacity. What say you?
So here I am doing a little theory crafting around the Drop pods. It occurred to me that experimenting with lists devoid of a Flyrant might be a good idea. This is what I've come up with:
Living Artillery Node:
3 Warriors(BS)
Exocrine
3 Biovores
Aegis Line w/ Quad gun
I like this list because it gives me options.
I can put any of the following into a pod:
Prime + Hormies.
Termagants
Carnifex
Tyrannofex
Exocrine
I can even run them empty!
I've got a malanthrope with a 2+ save manning a quad gun. lol. Or I can put the prime on there to keep him safe.
I've got lots 15 S6 blasts coming off those pods with a 36" range. Ripping up infantry, but also making vehicles scared of turning their back to a Pod.
I'm going to struggle with Adamantine lance, but should be able to play the edges of the board, and I still have the ability to kill one Knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iechine wrote: I've settled on this for starters (Non FW allowed) 1850:
Spoiler:
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Venomthrope
Bastion w/comms
Rippers w/DS Rippers w/DS Mucolid
23 Gargoyles
Crone
Dakkafex w/Tyrannocite
Dakkafex w/Tyrannocite
Mawloc
I like to think this is an extremely flexible, TAC list with a strong capacity for anti air/armor/infantry, board control and scoring capacity. What say you?
I built exactly the same list except without the mucolid (and a few less gargs) just a minute ago. It looks good to me.
It's a TAC list with the use of the deathleaper formation
Spore Mines (6)
Spore Mines (3)
I don't understand what you think the spore mines are going to accomplish. You could drop them for a venomthrope to keep your flyrants alive on turn 1, and avoid you TFex being gunned down by AP:2 Weapons.
Did I stutter? I have a quick question.
If I take a bastion with an escape hatch and have a malanthrope inside it does the shrouded and synapse bubble also extend from the escape hatch?
Cheers
Yep, x2 CAD, x4 Zoeys, all solo, add two "Super Zoeys...profit!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jy2 wrote: What is up with all these new Tyranid units?
I must've been a good boy lately.
GW found out you had spare cash...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iechine wrote: Side question...where is it 'confirmed' that Mucolids are troop choices?
Try as I might, I just cant find anything better to drop in than a Dakkafex. A turn 2 Carnifex in the midst of your army sucks for most anyone and has to be dealt with, which means Flyrants have free reign for another turn.
I've settled on this for starters (Non FW allowed) 1850:
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Flyrant w/Devs and electro
Venomthrope
Bastion w/comms
Rippers w/DS Rippers w/DS Mucolid
23 Gargoyles
Crone
Dakkafex w/Tyrannocite
Dakkafex w/Tyrannocite
Mawloc
I like to think this is an extremely flexible, TAC list with a strong capacity for anti air/armor/infantry, board control and scoring capacity. What say you?
Well...you know me, I think a Tyranofex, with a Thorax Hive is the perfect gift. It should produce a serious headache for any foe.
Since he can roll up stuff like psychic scream or warp blast to give him something to do when he comes in, I'd say he's more viable than some melee choices to pod in.
Leth wrote: Think the swarmlord in a pod will bring the ole boy back?
Being able to deep strike into the middle of the enemy army, as well as give out all his buffs would be pretty powerful I would think.
Makes it a lot easier to run him without the guards in that case.
Maybe, but I'd rather have Tyrant Guard to give him ablative wounds. In anycase, you're paying at least 335 for one guard and the Swarmlord, more for a Tyrannocyte - and it's hard to take the Swamlord when a Flyrant and Bastion w/ Comms Relay does practically the same thing for the same amount of points.
In a reserve heavy list though, he may have a niche.
Leth wrote: Think the swarmlord in a pod will bring the ole boy back?
Being able to deep strike into the middle of the enemy army, as well as give out all his buffs would be pretty powerful I would think.
Makes it a lot easier to run him without the guards in that case.
Maybe, but I'd rather have Tyrant Guard to give him ablative wounds. In anycase, you're paying at least 335 for one guard and the Swarmlord, more for a Tyrannocyte - and it's hard to take the Swamlord when a Flyrant and Bastion w/ Comms Relay does practically the same thing for the same amount of points.
In a reserve heavy list though, he may have a niche.
I used him in a t-cyte last Monday when the rules leaked. I was very satisfied. I was able to put him in a safe but threatening position, then assault the very next turn. He emptied a corner of the table by the endgame.
Leth wrote: Think the swarmlord in a pod will bring the ole boy back?
Being able to deep strike into the middle of the enemy army, as well as give out all his buffs would be pretty powerful I would think.
Makes it a lot easier to run him without the guards in that case.
Maybe, but I'd rather have Tyrant Guard to give him ablative wounds. In anycase, you're paying at least 335 for one guard and the Swarmlord, more for a Tyrannocyte - and it's hard to take the Swamlord when a Flyrant and Bastion w/ Comms Relay does practically the same thing for the same amount of points.
In a reserve heavy list though, he may have a niche.
I used him in a t-cyte last Monday when the rules leaked. I was very satisfied. I was able to put him in a safe but threatening position, then assault the very next turn. He emptied a corner of the table by the endgame.
Well, I do have a Hive Tyrant box unassembled...this gives me ideas
Leth wrote: Think the swarmlord in a pod will bring the ole boy back?
Being able to deep strike into the middle of the enemy army, as well as give out all his buffs would be pretty powerful I would think.
Makes it a lot easier to run him without the guards in that case.
Not quite. Dropping him without Guards is suicide. Because he can't take guards in the pod with him, it means two pods and the chance for very bad things due to one not coming in. If you do want to pod him in, this is what I suggest:
That is 655 which is waaay too much. Swarmlord's best place is still at the center of a giant hoard of advancing gribbles handing out buffs, and cleaning up whatever they manage to tarpit.
Consider this list to utilize Swarmlord's strengths.
Usually the pods are for the 2 Dakkafexes, and the Termagants. Sometimes you might pod the Exocrine instead.
All of that being said, I've written a Swarmlord tactica, but wanted 2 more test games before I publish it, and now I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board with it.
They are cheaper. They do more damage. They offer something (AP:2) at range, plus great mobility on an MC that Trygon's don't.
Trygons, and Tervigons got hit the hardest with the changes to smash. Without being a meaningful threat to vehicles in assault, they have fallen dramatically in usefulness.
A new detachment with a focus on Leviathan (so a mandatory Fast Attack slot?) as well as Death from the Skies rules for Aerial Combat which sound very intriguing. There are also going to be new formations and datasheets for new units, as well as new Warlord Traits.
Don't normally say this to GW but
Spoiler:
]
EDIT: Apparantly there is a new FAQ coming soon too, whether for new models or previous rules IDK
So let's be realistic - right now is probably the best time it's been to be a Nid player in like 6 years or longer. With a couple of let downs (Trygon :@), there is just so many viable units in our. A TRANSPORT WAS ALL WE NEEDED. As someone who has been decidedly unimpressed with GW in relation to Xeno releases all year, I'm actually willing to support this current release with my dollars, and I SUGGEST EVERYONE DO THE SAME if they feel a similar way about it. The only effect we can have on promoting good balancing decisions is by supporting it when they do deliver, and voting with your wallet when they don't.
It is kind of sad to think that it's been six years since the fourth edition golden age. That being said, I am definitely happy to see where GW has gone with our army in the last few weeks, as is just about everyone I think. But the most crazy thing is - more is yet to come.
On the horizon we have:
1) The new Zoanthrope/Venomthrope kit (not that we need more of them but I'm sure it will be cool) This most importantly includes the option to upgrade to a Neurothrope, which I can't imagine is a unique upgrade. So what that means is you can still have 2 solo Zoans floating around for cheap warp charge and a LOT of psychic shenanigans now. Or you can pod a group of 2 or 3 and do the same fun stuff. I don't know if it seems worth it to pod based on the Neurothrope's leaked info so far, but who knows? It could be. Plus they can psychically "split fire" so maybe it will be pretty decent after all
2) A new campaign box with unique models (I believe they said that the prime would be leading our force)
3) New dataslates/formations. We've been the luckiest by far with two incredibly playable formations that work in dramatically different ways, plus a large number of formations that we can take if we want to, again adding to our list-building flexibility. And now, GW has seen fit to have the rich get richer.
My one hope (in addition to the return of Godfexes in our next codex) is that one of these formations somehow gives us the ability to drop pod assault. Whatever it takes to do that, I will probably do lol. Although it is hypothetical, I'd like to pose a hypothetical question to you guys:
If we do indeed somehow get a turn 1/2 at the latest pod option in the formations/dataslates to be released (formations confirmed by a rumor but nothing indicating a drop pod assault - this is just my wishlisting) how would this alter things for you? What would you want to bring down? How would your list/tactics change?
If we do indeed somehow get a turn 1/2 at the latest pod option in the formations/dataslates to be released (formations confirmed by a rumor but nothing indicating a drop pod assault - this is just my wishlisting) how would this alter things for you? What would you want to bring down? How would your list/tactics change?
I'd probably put my Nids back on the shelf like I did with Tau over a year ago. I like being balanced internally, that would really throw out the power balance leaning heavily towards drop pod assault. I also somewhat enjoy being the underdog, I'd rather have bad internal balance and be underpowered as a result, than have terrible internal balance and as a result be a top tier tourney dominating codex. Without the Riptide I would have stuck with Tau, but there is absolutely no reason strategically not to have 3 in every list, I don't like bringing the WAAC flavor of the month armies, but I also don't like having to handicap my own builds and want to play my codexes to the fullest. So they have not left their glass cabinet in a long long time now.
I like this love Nids are getting, but I really hope they don't overdo it. We are in a good state now, I would love to see a new DoM, what I would really like is to see Stealers giving a points reduction and frags, Warriors given EW, Raveners given something else to make the risk worth it (an extra attack and a points reduction preferrably), Trygon's given haywire, Tervigons buffed, and the HQ's to be fixed, and I'd be pretty much happy.
Drop pod assault fixes Stealers, but it absolutely breaks Dakkafex & Dima. Walkrants would sit on the borderline of OP as well.
To be clear, I don't mean assaulting out of reserves. That would be terribly broken. I just mean coming in on turn one and two. To be honest, although it would be better, I don't know that a Dimachaeron coming in turn 1 is massively better than him coming in 8/9 times on turn 2 (which we currently can do)
Oh yeah that would be fine, hope they do it too would be cool. It would be much better allowing your whole army to DS without much fear of a tabling, like going second against DS melts you'd have to leave things on the board. Could also save points on a bastion. Wouldn't be OP at all though just a nice way of making a list more viable.
Like some keep a record of win/loss/draw ratio in their signatures, I'm considering just adding a count for how many Wraith Knights my Toxicrenes manage to eat
I approve of this. Which reminds me, I need to transfer my old sig across. in my case, it's the number of termagants expended in games...
Podding in tyrant guard is a nice idea. Yes, they get stuck with unwieldy for crushing claws, but it's not like carnifex or tervigons tend to strike first anyway...
Equally, if they're appearing at close range, might hive guard get some worthwhile use out of those silly haywire gun things?
Pyrovores are 3 heavy flamers - which is nice - but I think I'd still rather pay a (relatively few) more points and drop a tyrannofex with an acid spray and dessicators in, because torrent means you'll get almost as many hits off two templates as the pyros would off three, you wound on 2s not 3s against most targets, and the damn thing is MUCH harder to kill
Like some keep a record of win/loss/draw ratio in their signatures, I'm considering just adding a count for how many Wraith Knights my Toxicrenes manage to eat
Haha, do it for a Dreadknight/Riptide too
Maleceptor could have a niche being Podded in, dropping in the opponents deployment zone while picking off characters with it's Focused Witchfire and using Dominion to be used a tougher Synapse Peg in the opponents Deployment Zone than the Zoanthrope.
Like some keep a record of win/loss/draw ratio in their signatures, I'm considering just adding a count for how many Wraith Knights my Toxicrenes manage to eat
I approve of this. Which reminds me, I need to transfer my old sig across. in my case, it's the number of termagants expended in games...
Podding in tyrant guard is a nice idea. Yes, they get stuck with unwieldy for crushing claws, but it's not like carnifex or tervigons tend to strike first anyway...
Equally, if they're appearing at close range, might hive guard get some worthwhile use out of those silly haywire gun things?
Pyrovores are 3 heavy flamers - which is nice - but I think I'd still rather pay a (relatively few) more points and drop a tyrannofex with an acid spray and dessicators in, because torrent means you'll get almost as many hits off two templates as the pyros would off three, you wound on 2s not 3s against most targets, and the damn thing is MUCH harder to kill
Only 1 is torrent, and only 1 is S6. Pyrovores will hit a lot harder if you DS successfully and because of the pod rules you stand a good chance of being right in place even off a little scatter. Tyranno will only hit harder if you land way off, and even then it's only damage control, as it's not an optimal model if you land out of range. Don't get me wrong, Tyranno is good, just making it clear that the trade off is extra damage for extra tank, also 2x Tyrannofexes is more than 3x e Pyrovores worth of points, other than the Drop pods which mostly look like they pay for themselves IMO, a couple of points out at most. Also HS vs Elite is an easy one. There is advantages to both. Pyrovores are good tho, they also nice in CC
The Shadow wrote: Just a few quick questions from an un-informed Nid player:
1) Where are these formations (Deathleaper, Living Artillery) coming from? WD? Dataslate?
2) And I have the WD with the Toxicrene rules, but has the WD with the pod and mucolid rules been and gone or is it coming up?
3) Malanthropes are FW, right? And so I have to buy an expensive IA book to gain access to their rules?
Thanks :thumsbup:
1.) They're found in three different dataslates.
2.) Hasn't been released yet.
3.) Imperial Armour IV:The Anphelion Project 2nd edition.
Thanks!
And, yes, I'll agree with the other posters that now seems a great time to be a Nid player. I really don't want to spend too much on an army I'd considered completed, but I could do with a Zoan/Venomthrope box set (especially if there's a Doom v2) and a drop pod would be brilliant, though I'll likely be converting or scratch building my own, depending on the price of the kit. It's a dual kit with the mucolids, right?
The Shadow wrote: Just a few quick questions from an un-informed Nid player:
1) Where are these formations (Deathleaper, Living Artillery) coming from? WD? Dataslate?
2) And I have the WD with the Toxicrene rules, but has the WD with the pod and mucolid rules been and gone or is it coming up?
3) Malanthropes are FW, right? And so I have to buy an expensive IA book to gain access to their rules?
Thanks :thumsbup:
1.) They're found in three different dataslates.
2.) Hasn't been released yet.
3.) Imperial Armour IV:The Anphelion Project 2nd edition.
Thanks!
And, yes, I'll agree with the other posters that now seems a great time to be a Nid player. I really don't want to spend too much on an army I'd considered completed, but I could do with a Zoan/Venomthrope box set (especially if there's a Doom v2) and a drop pod would be brilliant, though I'll likely be converting or scratch building my own, depending on the price of the kit. It's a dual kit with the mucolids, right?
It's a dual kit between a Tyrannocyte or a Sporocyst and a Mucolid. If you have some Greenstuff laying around you could possibly make a Tyrannocyte and a Mucolid.
I was given a White Dwarf a little early yesterday, and the wording in it made it sound like you cant make a Mucolid if you build the Tyrannocite with just the parts in the kit.
tag8833 wrote: So here I am doing a little theory crafting around the Drop pods. It occurred to me that experimenting with lists devoid of a Flyrant might be a good idea. This is what I've come up with:
Living Artillery Node:
3 Warriors(BS)
Exocrine
3 Biovores
Aegis Line w/ Quad gun
I like this list because it gives me options.
I can put any of the following into a pod:
Prime + Hormies.
Termagants
Carnifex
Tyrannofex
Exocrine
I can even run them empty!
I've got a malanthrope with a 2+ save manning a quad gun. lol. Or I can put the prime on there to keep him safe.
I've got lots 15 S6 blasts coming off those pods with a 36" range. Ripping up infantry, but also making vehicles scared of turning their back to a Pod.
I'm going to struggle with Adamantine lance, but should be able to play the edges of the board, and I still have the ability to kill one Knight.
Iechine wrote: I was given a White Dwarf a little early yesterday, and the wording in it made it sound like you cant make a Mucolid if you build the Tyrannocite with just the parts in the kit.
That's what I said, but with Greenstuff you might can make a bottom to the Tyrannocyte and/or the Mucolid. Sculpting tyranid tentacles isn't too bad.
I should be able to figure something out then. I consider myself quite a good green stuff-er, and I have plenty of spare Tyranid carapaces lying around from the dual Carnifex kit.
I think I'll need to because both units strike me as very good ones that I'll likely want to use a lot in games.
ductvader wrote: People generally agreeing that Tyrannocytes kind of max out effectiveness around 3?
Has anyone played with spamming them?
Automatically Appended Next Post: People generally agreeing that Tyrannocytes kind of max out effectiveness around 3?
Has anyone played with spamming them?
Well with a single pod taking up anywhere from 4 to 5.5% of a standard 1850 tournament list (depending on upgrades) there is certainly a point at which the efficiency of the pods dwindle. The key is to have the threats inside the tyrannocytes worthy enough to give the opponent pause, while still maintaining a strong battlefield presence with what's left on the table as well. I have only theorycrafted this, and 1 test proxy game where i used a single tyrannocyte at 1500. I would imagine at 4% per pod, with no upgrades, 4 would be the upper limit i would ever try to field in a game. I plan on buying 2, and they will probably both see the table almost every game once i've built and painted them.
ductvader wrote: People generally agreeing that Tyrannocytes kind of max out effectiveness around 3?
Has anyone played with spamming them?
Automatically Appended Next Post: People generally agreeing that Tyrannocytes kind of max out effectiveness around 3?
Has anyone played with spamming them?
I also agree that there is probably the highest we can go. That's over 200 points right there (and is 300 if you get the better guns which, as appetizing as it sounds, I think we can spend our points better elsewhere). I don't even know that I would do three unless we had guaranteed turn 1/turn 2 from a formation. That's a lot of your army in reserves
Although I dont play tyranids I am SUPER excited for you guys. Combined with the FW love I think we will see a large variety of new builds on the table. Cant wait to play against them. Heck with the new kits I can definately see some Malanthrope conversions from these kits(just from extra bits!!)
Pretty sure Im not going to add the 'side' tentacles to my pods for ease of board placement and transport. I'm sure Ill be making some very surgical placements of those pods and I dont want the same headache I get from my Flyrants expansive wing spans.
Iechine wrote: Yea I sold 3 Zoeys, 3 is all Ill ever need. The new venom's look great though.
I thought that too. Then I started considering some of the rumors about a larger unit size and how the neurothrope interacts with the unit. It has me wondering if a larger unit -- probably in a Tyrannocyte -- might be at least some fun to play around with.
Yeah, those pictures aren't showing for me, but from the reaction I can guess they're pretty good. I'll trust you good peoples' judgment, so I'm happy. £40 for 3 isn't bad by GW standards, especially if you consider you can get 25% off from independent retailers. Malanthrope conversions are a decent shout, but are their rules good enough to worth the effort (and the purchasing of their rules)? I'm practically in the dark concerning FW stuff, so what do they even do?
As far as Tyrannocytes go, I have two scratch-built "pods" that I used as Mycetic Spores back in the old dex, so they should serve. I think two should be enough, though it depends on how awesome the new neuronthrope rules are and whether or not I can take two. I was planning on sticking a neuronthrope (and maybe some bog standard Zoeys) in one pod, and perhaps a Dakkafex/20 Devilgaunts in another.
The Shadow wrote: Yeah, those pictures aren't showing for me, but from the reaction I can guess they're pretty good. I'll trust you good peoples' judgment, so I'm happy. £40 for 3 isn't bad by GW standards, especially if you consider you can get 25% off from independent retailers. Malanthrope conversions are a decent shout, but are their rules good enough to worth the effort (and the purchasing of their rules)? I'm practically in the dark concerning FW stuff, so what do they even do?
Misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the Maleceptor kit which is awful. The Zoey kit looks fine. We don't have the rules yet for the new Zoey character, it is all rumor and guessing so far.
Everyone wish me luck. Im going to a local GW 1500pt tournament tomorrow, bringing Skyblight + Flyrant and rippers. No idea what to expect but its single elimination...part of me really wants to win it for the Hive, the other has little experience running Skyblight so we'll aim for the best.
T5 with 4 wounds, shrouded bubble and synapse. They can nom ICs to give a preferred enemy bubble as well iirc. 85points for basically a Vope and a Zope bundled together.
I assume the Toxis poisoned 2+ stacks with its MC smash rule giving it 2+ to wound, AP2?
Still WS 3 is so meh. Even VS tac marines out of 7 attacks on the charge, 3-4 will hit statisically? Why are most Nid MCs horrible WS? HTH monsters wtflol?
Ratius wrote: I assume the Toxis poisoned 2+ stacks with its MC smash rule giving it 2+ to wound, AP2?
Still WS 3 is so meh. Even VS tac marines out of 7 attacks on the charge, 3-4 will hit statisically? Why are most Nid MCs horrible WS? HTH monsters wtflol?
Yeah, the poisoned + MC combo is what sells it, really, at what makes up for a lackluster Weapon Skill. So, whilst you may only hit with half your attacks, most of the time, those attacks will cause an unsaved wound.
Ratius wrote: I assume the Toxis poisoned 2+ stacks with its MC smash rule giving it 2+ to wound, AP2?
Still WS 3 is so meh. Even VS tac marines out of 7 attacks on the charge, 3-4 will hit statisically? Why are most Nid MCs horrible WS? HTH monsters wtflol?
Yeah, the poisoned + MC combo is what sells it, really, at what makes up for a lackluster Weapon Skill. So, whilst you may only hit with half your attacks, most of the time, those attacks will cause an unsaved wound.
Its overcosted, and inferior to the Dimacharon or even the Stone Crusher Carnifex. The main problem with it is that it doesn't bring anything particularly unique to the table, and is unable to threaten vehicles. We live in the age of mech, so it is situationally useful at best.
So is it just me or does the "Nope" Feel like a little bit of a lazy sculpt? To me it looks like the blew up the Zopes head, shrunk his body, and threw some Mope arms on it and called it a day... Esp after seeing the other new models im just a little, well, meh on the model.
I've been bouncing this 1850 list around and thought I'd share for any feedback.
HQ-Hive Tyrant:Wings, E.Grubs, Dual Devourers
HQ-Hive Tyrant:Wings, E.Grubs, Dual Devourers
ET-Malanthrope
TP-Tervigon:E.Grubs, Crushing Claws
TP-Termagants(30):29 Spinefists, 1 Strangleweb
HS-Carnifex(2)ual Devourers
HS-Carnifexual Devourers
HS-Carnifexual Devourers
Fort-Bastion:Comms Array
Transport-Tyrannocyte(3)
The idea is the Flyrants and Carnifex will start pushing up where I need them.
Termagants will either camp an objective or push up with the fexes. They can bubble wrap when necessary.
The Tervigon and Single Fexes will pod in, with the Tervigon making it's own bubble wrap if needed, basically just dropping more units behind enemy lines. Perhaps giving a better guarentee of linebreaker.
The idea is the Flyrants and Carnifex will start pushing up where I need them.
Termagants will either camp an objective or push up with the fexes. They can bubble wrap when necessary.
The Tervigon and Single Fexes will pod in, with the Tervigon making it's own bubble wrap if needed, basically just dropping more units behind enemy lines. Perhaps giving a better guarentee of linebreaker.
Termagants aren't great at screening walking MC's. With a squad of that size, a bad run move will cripple you carnifex's advance. Consider taking "Hive Commander" on the Hive Tyrant so that you can outflank the Termagants or possibly the Tervigon. You can lose one Dakkafex for this, and still fit in an awesome screening/tarpit unit of 20 Gargoyles. Or you could drop one Tyrannocite, and downgrade a dakkafex to a Mawloc, and take a small squad of Hormagants / Gargoyles as your screen.
The idea is the Flyrants and Carnifex will start pushing up where I need them.
Termagants will either camp an objective or push up with the fexes. They can bubble wrap when necessary.
The Tervigon and Single Fexes will pod in, with the Tervigon making it's own bubble wrap if needed, basically just dropping more units behind enemy lines. Perhaps giving a better guarentee of linebreaker.
Termagants aren't great at screening walking MC's. With a squad of that size, a bad run move will cripple you carnifex's advance. Consider taking "Hive Commander" on the Hive Tyrant so that you can outflank the Termagants or possibly the Tervigon. You can lose one Dakkafex for this, and still fit in an awesome screening/tarpit unit of 20 Gargoyles. Or you could drop one Tyrannocite, and downgrade a dakkafex to a Mawloc, and take a small squad of Hormagants / Gargoyles as your screen.
They also aren't terrible at it. AG terms are probly the best for this role, for 1 PPM more than Horms they shoot at S4 AP5, have fleet, and get 2x glance on AV10 per charge. Horms are good for 10 points cheaper too.
To touch a bit more on the differences between a Malanthrope and...well....any other unit that you might be considering taking, there are a number of benefits that you'll get with a Malanthrope, the combination of all of which you won't find in any other combination of units, and certainly not for so few points and only a single kill point:
1) Toughness 5. Goodbye instant death strength 8 and 9
2) Synapse creature. Can't have too many. This means Shadows of the Warp as well. Suck it psychers!
3) Shrouded, and gives shrouded to every unit that has a SINGLE MODEL in said unit at least partially within 6"
4) 3+ armor. In conjunction with the shrouded save, you're almost always getting a 3++, unless you're getting shot by an AP 3 ignores cover weapon. There are less of those than you would think if you discount psychic shenanigans. Often times you will be able to get 2+ cover also (thank the sweet baby Jesus for ruins)
5) 4 wounds
6) Regeneration
7) Poisoned 2+
8) When it is part of a combat that is won by Tyranids, it's synapse bubble gives preferred enemy for that codex that the unit that lost combat belongs to. This doesn't happen all that often but it's pretty dope when it does
It is probably as close to an auto-include as our Flyrant is. Taking anything else just makes your army appreciably worse. That being said, there is a lovely debate between Shuppet and I about this very topic (the opportunity cost of taking a Malanthrooe) about...5 or 10 pages back. You're welcome to look through my post history. I don't have that many and once you get to a wall of text with a bunch of numbers you'll know you're in the right area
The idea is the Flyrants and Carnifex will start pushing up where I need them.
Termagants will either camp an objective or push up with the fexes. They can bubble wrap when necessary.
The Tervigon and Single Fexes will pod in, with the Tervigon making it's own bubble wrap if needed, basically just dropping more units behind enemy lines. Perhaps giving a better guarentee of linebreaker.
Termagants aren't great at screening walking MC's. With a squad of that size, a bad run move will cripple you carnifex's advance. Consider taking "Hive Commander" on the Hive Tyrant so that you can outflank the Termagants or possibly the Tervigon. You can lose one Dakkafex for this, and still fit in an awesome screening/tarpit unit of Kris & his wife n kids will be here late tonight. Don't think Nic is coming, Kam is not coming.
Kris has the two little boys y'all met before. 20 Gargoyles. Or you could drop one Tyrannocite, and downgrade a dakkafex to a Mawloc, and take a small squad of Hormagants / Gargoyles as your screen.
I basically took the terms for access to a spudded ob:sec Tervigon. I could drop the crushing claws on the Tervigon and the Strangleweb for hive commander on the big outflanking blob of spinegants. I assumed they would be bubble wrapping the bastion from deep striking Melta/Haywire for the most part. When I mean push up with the fexes I would usually keep them behind- doesn't exactly make use of their guns, but if I'm moving them up it's for an objective or to tarpit anyway.
Is the loss of Cclaws on the Tervigon worth outflanking the Spinegants? Or would it be better to drop the Tervigon altogether and change up with troops a bit?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I suppose with Hive Comander I could deep strike an empty pod and outflank the Tervigon, although I'm not sure why.
The idea is the Flyrants and Carnifex will start pushing up where I need them.
Termagants will either camp an objective or push up with the fexes. They can bubble wrap when necessary.
The Tervigon and Single Fexes will pod in, with the Tervigon making it's own bubble wrap if needed, basically just dropping more units behind enemy lines. Perhaps giving a better guarentee of linebreaker.
Termagants aren't great at screening walking MC's. With a squad of that size, a bad run move will cripple you carnifex's advance. Consider taking "Hive Commander" on the Hive Tyrant so that you can outflank the Termagants or possibly the Tervigon. You can lose one Dakkafex for this, and still fit in an awesome screening/tarpit unit of Kris & his wife n kids will be here late tonight. Don't think Nic is coming, Kam is not coming.
Kris has the two little boys y'all met before. 20 Gargoyles. Or you could drop one Tyrannocite, and downgrade a dakkafex to a Mawloc, and take a small squad of Hormagants / Gargoyles as your screen.
I basically took the terms for access to a spudded ob:sec Tervigon. I could drop the crushing claws on the Tervigon and the Strangleweb for hive commander on the big outflanking blob of spinegants. I assumed they would be bubble wrapping the bastion from deep striking Melta/Haywire for the most part. When I mean push up with the fexes I would usually keep them behind- doesn't exactly make use of their guns, but if I'm moving them up it's for an objective or to tarpit anyway.
Is the loss of Cclaws on the Tervigon worth outflanking the Spinegants? Or would it be better to drop the Tervigon altogether and change up with troops a bit?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I suppose with Hive Comander I could deep strike an empty pod and outflank the Tervigon, although I'm not sure why.
I really like Outflanking the Terv. If you don't have a passenger for a Pod, drop it and spend the points on something nice, like a Brood of Hormagaunts to screen the Big Bugs. Losing the claws does little (you have a Haywire Template afterall) and a Dakkafex still generates D3 HOW at ST 9 on a charge!
I'm just curious as to whether it's better to outflank a Tervigon or deep strike him. Outflank is cheaper, but there's a small chance he won't go where I want it. Deep strike comes with another MC, more guns, and will reliably go where I want it. Right now it's two deep striking Devilfexes and a deep striking Tervigon. I can also drop the Tervigon, but I thought the idea of dropping an MC who can spawn it's own bubble wrap and throw out an Egrub template plus some stinger salvo shots was too good to pass up. Seems like it could be as big of a pain as a devilfex(albeit less killy) when dropped in the backfield. You have to kill at least three units instead of two or one.
I think even assuming they both end up exactly where you want them (obviously far more likely with the pod, bust just assuming it's are equal) you still waste more points on the Hive Commander. 25 points with no other returns, or 100 pts with 5 Venom Cannons. You might be overcharging about 10-20 pts on whole for the Pod once you set the unit mobility aside, but that's still less points wasted than HC and better returns all round.
To me, pods made HC pretty obsolete, although really it already was.
Got in a test game with the Tyranid Deathleaper Assassin brood. Played against the new Dark Eldar for the very first time since their codex came out. I really didn't know what to expect as I haven't played against DE for quite some time now. I also didn't know my opponent, Forrest, who is new to our LGS.
BTW, we only played at 1275 because that was all that my opponent had brought (painted), so I dropped a whole lot of stuff from my 1850 list to get down there. Yet I still managed to keep the formation, dropping my other TAC units instead.
It's been a while since I've played against Dark Eldar, and I have not played against their new codex yet. Now back in 5th, DE was just a problematic matchup for Tyranids. In 6th, things got a little easier for bugs with the advent of Flying Monstrous Creatures (FMC's) but still, DE had the firepower to shoot them down. Fast forwards to 7th and now the shoe is on the other foot. Tyranids have become the potential bad matchup for DE, especially a FMC-heavy bug list. Well, that was the older DE codex. The newer DE codex may have changed this again, though this game probably wouldn't be an indication of that (i.e. my opponent is not running any DE flyers). What he is running is a lot of DE firepower, so that will still remain problematic for any of my units other than my flyrants.
My flyrants will be a nightmare for my opponent to deal with. He cannot take them down reliably and his flimsy glass boats won't stand up to their shooting. Moreover, the flyrant egrubs (electroshock grubs) will hit both the open-topped transport and the unit inside. Basically, my flyrants have the potential to rampage through his army. However, I really don't know if my Lictor formation will contribute much to the game, other than as target practice for my opponent. So I've got a couple of really good units against his army, but the rest of my army just isn't suited to dealing with DE, with probably the exception of the mawloc.
Overall, I think this game can go either ways. I really don't know the skill level of my opponent, but if he can somehow manage to take down at least 1 flyrant early, then he'd have the advantage. If not, then I think I can pull off the V in this one.
Had a close game against a good white scars bike list last night. We decided to both bring some pretty hardcore lists and see what happened.
My list:
Quad Flyrants, 2 TLBLDevs, EGrubs
Bastion
Malanthrope
4 DS Ripper Squads
2 Dimachaerons
Mawloc
It's a double combined-arms list
His list (an approximation, as I didn't look at the exact list when we played):
Khan w/Moondraken
Chapter Master w/artificer armor, shield eternal, thunder hammer
Command Squad, each with grav guns and storm shields. Two guys also had melta bombs
There was also an apothecary in the command squad
Relic Sicaran
Thunder fire cannon
Storm....Eagle I believe. It was the one with 4 hull points. Had 2 TL Lascannons, a Multi-Melta, and a whirlwind launcher. Was a forge world variant.
8 bikes w/2 grav guns, attack bike w/multi melta
8 bikes w/2 grav guns, attack bike w/multi melta
8 bikes w/2 grav guns, attack bike w/multi melta
It was vanguard strike deployment. We played BAO Mission 4. I didn't keep track of which Maelstrom objectives were achieved on a specific turn, mostly because we rolled "kill a unit" like 70 percent of the time. It was close but in the end I got a single more Maelstrom point than he did. Basically he just hunted down and killed the rippers turn by turn so he was able to keep pace despite combat squadding his bikes. Because he wanted to see my deployment, he made me go first (which was an interesting decision due to his strong alpha strike, but with all the 2+ cover I would be getting, he felt it would not be as effective). I deployed around my bastion, which I placed between two ruins so Shroudstar was in full effect. It was also night-fighting, not that it mattered for either of our armies. He deployed in a net across most of the diagonal. Not that I was looking to get away. He did then try to sieze after deploying second. Interestingly, his scout moves were somewhat stunted because of my Dimachaerons. He didn't want to give me a turn 1 charge on a unit of my choosing.
So after he failed to sieze, my flyrants took to the air and did what they do best. Two of them had rolled up psychic scream and I got to hit a total of 6 squads between the two of them. Didn't have great rolls but killed some bikes. Also got two warp lances and tried to hit up the sicaran, but I didn't have many warp charge and I needed to make sure that a) I didn't perils myself and fall out of the sky like an idiot and b) I got off psychic scream reliably both times. So I only used two dice for each warp lance and predictably didn't get either off. In the shooting phase, I had a golden moment. Flyrants did what flyrants do and made the bikes take a metric ton of armor saves, but he rolled well and three squads were crippled but first blood hadn't happened. Then, I remembered about my bastion's heavy bolter. 3 shots, 2 wounds, 1 failed armor save for first blood!!! That Malanthrope had a dead eye all game.
On his turn, his meltas whiffed on the bastion (he only shot 1 or 2) and his bikes moved up to shoot the crap out of one of the DImachaerons, but Shroudstar is Shroudstar. Did a total of 2 wounds to the beast. Those two wounds were due to a Thunderfire cannon....apparently ignores cover is pretty op, even if you are still taking 3+ armor saves He shot ineffectively at my Flyrants as well causing a wound but I passed my grounding check. This turn, he only accomplished one of his Maelstrom objectives. I mention it because it was the only turn that either of us failed to max out the secondary.
My turn 2, four of my five reserve units came in.....of course it was the Mawloc who didn't. The Rippers each dropped on a different objective, with pretty friendly scatter. Only one was out of run range at the end of the turn. But the flyrants continued to rampage about, as his Sicaran proved not to be a very good AA platform, and his plane was still in reserves. They continued to pour tons of shots into the bike squads, using their superior mobility to gain rear shots on many of the bikes that were kept towards the rear of the squads with the better weapons. About half his bikes were dead at the end of turn 2. I killed his Thunderfire and Psychic Scream continued to be decently effective when used against multiple squads. The Dimachaerons decided to both wait in their lair - the charge would have been too long and they liked their cover. Plus, he was going to come to me. It was his command squad's only option. Another highlight of the game - the Malanthrope continued to do his best Vindicare Assassin impression, sniping a lone biker who had passed his armor saves from the rest of the army, earning me a Maelstrom point!
On his turn 2, the Storm Eagle came in and genuinely made the Hive Tyrants shake a little. He made one jink, which then fell out of the sky and was a sitting duck with one wound, which two bike squads proceeded to finish off....with their hammer of wrath....shameful. Another hive tyrant was brought down to only one wound from combined shooting from a couple squads and some good rends from the Sicaran (2 ouf of 6 dice! Geez!) but he passed his grounding check! (Spoiler, he would live until the end of the game - what a champ!) The Dimachaeron gets charged by the Command Squad with Khan and the Chapter Master. To be fair, the Dimachaeron wasn't too sad. It's what he lives for. It was a bit of a high-level slap fight. His melta bombs and chapter master sort of whiffed and they all had 3+ invulns and/or eternal warrior, but I still did some work. Managed to knock a wound off the chapter master and kill two bikes. He did put down the Dimachaeron in the end (it was the one with 4 wounds to start, as the other one was sitting pretty on top of the Bastion, waiting to LEAP down and join the combat. Because you have to make use of his leap rule somehow haha).
On my turn 3, the Mawloc comes in and does what she does best.....MISS by a tantalizingly small amount. She did still kill 3 bikes but appeared on the board like a sitting duck after clearly them away. My flyrants were able to maneuver behind the Storm Eagle, and then shoot at whatever they pleased because it wouldn't be able to get a firing arc on any of them. So what they did was kill the sicaran, and then the third one decided to shoot some more bikes. My second Dimachaeron charged in to avenge his fallen brother (because Tyranids have honor like that) and killed Khan. KHAAAAAAN! He would then be taken down to a single wound by melta bombs and the Chapter Master, and of course the FNP hit is saved. Dima can't catch a FNP break. It's an ongoing chronicle now.
On his turn 3, he made what I think was his only tactical error of the game. Well, maybe one of two. Instead of flying the Storm Eagle off the board (or entering it into Hover mode) he decided to shoot my bastion. He did cause a detonation, causing 15 WOUNDS to my poor poor Malanthrope in the process....who then made 13 3+ armor saves LIKE A MAN. Of course he was still sitting in the open. And although the Dimachaeron did his best, he fell in the end to the Chapter Master (though not without taking a few more Command Squad members with him, most notably the Apothecary). He also assaults and kills the Mawloc after shooting it up beforehand. Two other contenders for moments of the game occurred during his assault phase, when an attack bike with a single wound tried to clear a solitary group of rippers off of an objective, but was not only repelled but actually killed by the rippers! Weight of attacks for the win! Later in that same assault phase, a lone ripper one-upped even that performance. The techmarine from the thunderfire had been out of line of sight from my flyrants when they killed the cannon itself, so he was still kicking, and caused 6 wounds to a ripper squad near his objective in the backfield with his flamer. He then charged the lone ripper, who wounded him twice, causing a single failed armor save before the marine could even strike! WOW! I know it's not that crazy, statistics-wise, but it was pretty cool.
My turn four consisted of using the Hive Tyrants to whittle down his bikes even further because I could again stay behind the arc of the Storm Eagle completely with all three of them. The Chapter Master finally fell to weight of fire from all three hive tyrants. Psychic scream once again did a little work. RIppers continued to die, but 2 squads were on far-away objectives out of LOS so that was looking good. The Malanthrope charged into a combat against some bikes with the rippers, not doing much at all but hey, Tyranids gotta eat.
His turn four, he decided to fly his Storm Eagle off the board rather than going into hover mode (which I think was also a bit of a bad idea, and I did caution him of the possibility that he would be tabled in the meantime, though he had 7 or 8 bikes left. He was relatively confident that with three squads (one of which had only 1 bike), he would probably be ok since I only had the three hive tyrants left. And to be fair to him, the flyrants did all have templates, so his plane would likely have died if he went into hover mode). Unfortunately for him, the bikes finished off my models in combat so everyone was free to be shot at.
On my turn, psychic scream did it's job once more and finished off one of the bike squads that had only a single member, freeing up my three tyrants to fire at only two squads, tabling him.......as I type that, I now realize that since he had second turn this was not the case. Whoops, rules OP. That being said, the game was very much over at that point since I had two ripper squads and three flyrants left, two of which had full wounds, and his Storm Eagle was the only model left in his army.
Overall, it was a close game. He wasn't really able to deal with the Flyrants and they pretty much wrecked most of his army over the course of the game. He focused on killing off my ground models, which he did do effectively. I had a total of 3 models on the ground at the top of four, and he probably could have killed all of them in another turn or two. However, I had first blood, and it would have been very difficult for him to kill my full health warlord. I also had guaranteed linebreaker, whereas he might have been able to get it if the game ended on turn 5, but not after that, as he certainly would have been tabled.
Primary: Won by Tyranids!
Secondary: Won by a single point by Tyranids
3 Tertiary points: Tyranids 3; Marines 0
Crushing 10-0 victory to Tyranids!
Overall thoughts - I know that the Hive Tyrants are MVPs, and nowhere is that more evident than when you take them in numbers. Much like Skyblight, they are just really tough to deal with, especially since they can often neutralize what little AA threats there are to their existence, leaving them free to rampage about the skies. The rippers surprised me by rolling really well, and they fulfilled their objective babysitting duties perfectly. The Dimachaerons and Mawlocs had a pretty bad matchup, but the occupied the ground forces for most of the game, freeing the Hive Tyrants up to do their job. Overall, I really like the list and look forward to playing variants of it more. I don't think the bike list was a good matchup for the bikes, but to be honest, I don't know how many lists can deal with that many air units that do so much.
Thanks. It felt a lot closer than it was in the early going. Especially because had my one-wound Flyrant failed his grounding check, he most certainly would have died (from assault if not the fall) and that would have swung the game quite a bit
I got tabled by Grey knights with Space wolf allies turn 4... so how do we deal with grey knights?!
the main things that ruined my list was those 9inch damn nova's that ignore cover and auto hit everything - even fliers?!. God damn Grey knights are powerful vs Nids!
luke1705 wrote:To touch a bit more on the differences between a Malanthrope and...well....any other unit that you might be considering taking, there are a number of benefits that you'll get with a Malanthrope, the combination of all of which you won't find in any other combination of units, and certainly not for so few points and only a single kill point:
1) Toughness 5. Goodbye instant death strength 8 and 9
2) Synapse creature. Can't have too many. This means Shadows of the Warp as well. Suck it psychers!
3) Shrouded, and gives shrouded to every unit that has a SINGLE MODEL in said unit at least partially within 6"
4) 3+ armor. In conjunction with the shrouded save, you're almost always getting a 3++, unless you're getting shot by an AP 3 ignores cover weapon. There are less of those than you would think if you discount psychic shenanigans. Often times you will be able to get 2+ cover also (thank the sweet baby Jesus for ruins)
5) 4 wounds
6) Regeneration
7) Poisoned 2+
8) When it is part of a combat that is won by Tyranids, it's synapse bubble gives preferred enemy for that codex that the unit that lost combat belongs to. This doesn't happen all that often but it's pretty dope when it does
It is probably as close to an auto-include as our Flyrant is. Taking anything else just makes your army appreciably worse. That being said, there is a lovely debate between Shuppet and I about this very topic (the opportunity cost of taking a Malanthrooe) about...5 or 10 pages back. You're welcome to look through my post history. I don't have that many and once you get to a wall of text with a bunch of numbers you'll know you're in the right area
Awesome, thanks for the lowdown!
I'll check out that wall of text discussion as well
jy2 wrote:Interesting. Would you happen to have the list that the GK/SW player was running?
hello dude.
I literally know nothing about grey knights so apologies in advance, I'm also super tired and drunk so my brains a little fuzzed so if anyone can help out here!
his list was something like this;
Grey Knights primary
Librarian ML3? he got gate and two other powers.
Purifiers?
Psylincers? strength 7 weapons.
combat squadding to give 2 x ML 2 sqauds)Purifiers?
Strength 5, 9inch Nova with 2D6 auto hits that ignores cover? it's horrific! shredded my flyrants and hive crone. I definitely got too close so thats major error 1...
Those Novas are WC2 IIRC. Should be pretty tough to cast 2 a turn reliably without perils, let alone 3. Although I guess he had a lot of warp charge. They are also 9" range so like you said, you just need to stay 15+ inches away from that model. We do a great job of having 18" guns so it works out
luke1705 wrote: Those Novas are WC2 IIRC. Should be pretty tough to cast 2 a turn reliably without perils, let alone 3. Although I guess he had a lot of warp charge. They are also 9" range so like you said, you just need to stay 15+ inches away from that model. We do a great job of having 18" guns so it works out
hmm. Yeah, I wasn't aware of what they could do and just completely unexpected it. Also, he had something like 14 WC + D6 per phase. I couldn't get any powers off and he got all the ones off that he needed.
He cast 3 of those Nova turn 1.
Another thing to keep in mind - whenever he casts a power while within 12" of one of your synapse creatures, his leadership is reduced by 3. Not a game-changer, as it doesn't prevent the power from going off like it used to, but when they do perils, it's a lot worse when they fail that leadership check. Might make him think twice about casting a WC 2 power around your Flyrants. For added nonsense, you could run Deathleaper, bringing even a LD 10 psyker down to LD 4 at best and LD 6 at worst
Finally, you have your own powerful psyhic powers. Psychic Scream isn't super nasty, but it's a nova power of its own and when you cast it against psykers, it is really good. You do 2D6 +2 and subtract their leadership. HOWEVER, remember shadow in the warp!!! Psykers have -3 to their leadership. So that LD 10 psyker just became LD 7. Or, better yet, all those Grey Knights that have the "Brotherhood of Psykers" special rule? Ok your LD was 9 but is now 6. This means that when you roll your 2d6 and get a 7 (average roll) that becomes a 9 and 3 terminators take invulnerable saves or die. You can see how much better it can get (oh hello Mr. Dreadknight - I rolled a 10. Please take 5 invulnerable saves right now)
It's also worth pointing out (because people seem to forget this a lot) that say you won combat against a unit like grey knight purifiers, or a Nemesis Dreadknight. Their leadership is still reduced by 3 if they're in Shadows. Then you further reduce it by whatever they lost combat by. If not for ATSKNF, you'd be sweeping marines left and right. This also works awesome against Daemons and their Deamonic Instability tests, as well as when you use psychic scream against them (as much of their army is a psyker, or at least the ones that you want dead)
So use your superior mobility and sucker punch them before they take a swing at you! Their threat range for the nova is 15", whereas yours is 30"! That's a big deal. And even if they get gate, they still have to get lucky with the scatter since they can't run before they psychic.
So no possible Pyschic Scream shenanigans plus a Neurothrope blast? It might also depend on the cost- of course it's currently at 150pts base, plus the. Nuerothrope upgrade...
Sinful Hero wrote: So no possible Pyschic Scream shenanigans plus a Neurothrope blast? It might also depend on the cost- of course it's currently at 150pts base, plus the. Nuerothrope upgrade...
Well assuming you take the WC risk out of Zopes they might suddenly be worth it again. Severely mitigating the risk of cast failure AND deny, leaves you with just roll to hit (BS4) and roll to pen once with S10 AV1. Actually might be what Zopes need.
So in a No Forgeworld setting, I cant run the oh so nice Malanthrope, would the Malcepter be worth running as a durable Synapse anchor?
I need a bit more in my list and have 155pts free. Was thinging about a crone and dropping some Rippers for a Zoanthrope. But since I have to buy a new model any way (Tyrant, Crone or Malceptor), I am wondering if a T6 4+/5++ W6 beasty might be worth it in a troop heavy list. It would still gain from the Vope's shroud effect so could end up at a 2+ or 3+ cover save.
A Vope and 3xWarriors or 1xZope provides both the same shrouded and Syanpse bubble, and chips into the same amount of points of the rest of your army, and arguably performs better in a lot of regards.
The Maleceptor is maybe the worst or second model we have available to us right now.
Played a local GW 1500 tourney yesterday. First opponent had an Ork Stompa and the tractor beam thing. You guys know the drill, I just killed all of his ground guys and scored all but one of the scouring. Even put some wounds on the Stompa when I ran low on targets.
Second opponent was Salamanders and I tabled him. Third was Dark Eldar with everything mechanized, and he rolled a Skyfire nexus on his side of the board, then castled as much as he could on or near it. Game was done by turn 4, cant do much against that much twin linked fire power on MCs.
Many venoms, 3x ravagers, 3x of the other not ravager thing, all filled with warriors. It started bad when my Warlord still took 3 wounds turn 1 with a 2+ cover.
Iechine wrote: Many venoms, 3x ravagers, 3x of the other not ravager thing, all filled with warriors. It started bad when my Warlord still took 3 wounds turn 1 with a 2+ cover.
I have 15k Nids and 10k DE, I love both armies. I cant think of a Worst match up for nids other can Venom/boat spam.
At least the Fliers arnt like 5th anymore and can start on the table, having 3 Razorwings + 3 Venoms and 6 Warrior boats can table a nids list in 1-2 turns.
Iechine wrote: Many venoms, 3x ravagers, 3x of the other not ravager thing, all filled with warriors. It started bad when my Warlord still took 3 wounds turn 1 with a 2+ cover.
I have 15k Nids and 10k DE, I love both armies. I cant think of a Worst match up for nids other can Venom/boat spam.
At least the Fliers arnt like 5th anymore and can start on the table, having 3 Razorwings + 3 Venoms and 6 Warrior boats can table a nids list in 1-2 turns.
I was fine until the Skyfire-for-everyone came about, he had a poor deployment IMO and I felt like I was in a good spot for the win.
This is NOT me being a sore loser, but Id like to point out that I truly despise mysterious objectives and am glad that my gaming group ignores them and that most tournaments do as well.
After getting t Nov 8th White dwarf and I can I really like both the Tyrannocyte and the Sporocyst, I most likely wont play much of the Sporocyst at all, but I feel it has it uses.
One thing I would like to try (going to test this out before I even buy anything next week) Is 4 Tyrannocyte and 4 Sporocysts, Drop them in a Line midway/in opponent DZ and Spawn the Mucolid and try to get a Charge off right away with them (range is hard with 1/2 charge).
Having 2 DakkaFlyrants, and 2 Hive Guard and 1 Zoan set Dropping in aswell (1 tervigon/Gant unit in back for Scoring) at 2000pts seems strong at the same time seems like many things can go wrong.
Will also be testing, 2 Dakkaflyrants, with 2 DakkaFexs, 1 Exocrine and 2 Hive Guard, 1 Zoan, all but Flyrants with Drop Pods and a Wall with Coms, I will play against a Wave Serpent Army seeing a a hard Alpha strike turn 2 will do the trick.
Iechine wrote: Many venoms, 3x ravagers, 3x of the other not ravager thing, all filled with warriors. It started bad when my Warlord still took 3 wounds turn 1 with a 2+ cover.
As a DE player, I can think of something worse - 54 Reavers. Less poison, but can use JSJ to kite even Exocrine and then once you move up the board, still beat absolutely every unit you own in the game in assault.
But yeah DE isn't an optimal match up if it's played well.
Iechine wrote: Many venoms, 3x ravagers, 3x of the other not ravager thing, all filled with warriors. It started bad when my Warlord still took 3 wounds turn 1 with a 2+ cover.
As a DE player, I can think of something worse - 54 Reavers. Less poison, but can use JSJ to kite even Exocrine and then once you move up the board, still beat absolutely every unit you own in the game in assault.
But yeah DE isn't an optimal match up if it's played well.
As a DE player I wouldnt do this against Bugs,
I would just take 14 Venoms, Couple Fliers, some blasters here or there and your golden
tetrisphreak wrote: How did his whole army use 1 sky fire nexus? The rules say "a" unit benefits from mysterious objectives - that means just 1 per.
Tetrisphreak is correct.
Most Mysterious Objectives (with the exception of '1') affects just 'a' unit, including the Skyfire Nexus. The whole army doesn't benefit from it. The controlling player needs to nominate 1 of his units to receive the benefits of the mysteriousness of the objective.
Sounds like your opponent might have misplayed it.
SHUPPET wrote: 14 venoms. Sheesh. Not gunna have many points for AT there. But yeah Venoms are pretty hard to deal with for Nids.
You dont need AT for Nids, they have No armor.
I believe he is looking at the list from a Take-All-Comer's perspective. Anyone can tailor. Question is, can you build a list that can handle all the other armies as well as Tyranids? The list is no good if it can't do that.
Iechine wrote: Played a local GW 1500 tourney yesterday. First opponent had an Ork Stompa and the tractor beam thing. You guys know the drill, I just killed all of his ground guys and scored all but one of the scouring. Even put some wounds on the Stompa when I ran low on targets.
Second opponent was Salamanders and I tabled him. Third was Dark Eldar with everything mechanized, and he rolled a Skyfire nexus on his side of the board, then castled as much as he could on or near it. Game was done by turn 4, cant do much against that much twin linked fire power on MCs.
Yeah, castles are tough for us, about the only answers are Mawloc , Biovores, or maybe our new super spore dudes (if they can DS and exlode on the same turn)....I guess Podding in a Acid spray Tyranofex could distract the foe as well.
SHUPPET wrote: 14 venoms. Sheesh. Not gunna have many points for AT there. But yeah Venoms are pretty hard to deal with for Nids.
You dont need AT for Nids, they have No armor.
I believe he is looking at the list from a Take-All-Comer's perspective. Anyone can tailor. Question is, can you build a list that can handle all the other armies as well as Tyranids? The list is no good if it can't do that.
But if you play by the rules you dont even chose a army or list until you know the Points and game type. So really, I can have 5 armies, see what Game type it is and then pick the best army for that objective. But no one plays like that.
arnath Lysander
Shoot even a boring old school Screamer Killer could work, you can Plasma on arrival, then HOW next turn. 
)
Yeah, I'd be happier with some bubble wrap, so a Pod full O' Melta (
]
The maleceptor is the other half of the toxicrene kit...
