SHUPPET wrote: 14 venoms. Sheesh. Not gunna have many points for AT there. But yeah Venoms are pretty hard to deal with for Nids.
You dont need AT for Nids, they have No armor.
I believe he is looking at the list from a Take-All-Comer's perspective. Anyone can tailor. Question is, can you build a list that can handle all the other armies as well as Tyranids? The list is no good if it can't do that.
But if you play by the rules you dont even chose a army or list until you know the Points and game type. So really, I can have 5 armies, see what Game type it is and then pick the best army for that objective. But no one plays like that.
But that is still not I have an army for each Codex, that is a list for each mission. IMHO...not the same.
SHUPPET wrote: 14 venoms. Sheesh. Not gunna have many points for AT there. But yeah Venoms are pretty hard to deal with for Nids.
You dont need AT for Nids, they have No armor.
I believe he is looking at the list from a Take-All-Comer's perspective. Anyone can tailor. Question is, can you build a list that can handle all the other armies as well as Tyranids? The list is no good if it can't do that.
But if you play by the rules you dont even chose a army or list until you know the Points and game type. So really, I can have 5 armies, see what Game type it is and then pick the best army for that objective. But no one plays like that.
But that is still not I have an army for each Codex, that is a list for each mission. IMHO...not the same.
I know I was saying no one is technically playing 100% correct .. lol.
Anyways a DEtac list is still really bad for Nids, I onyl said it b.c Someone else said Bikes are good against them and was Just saying Venoms are even better, I never said you should/will play nids like this Just stating a Fact that Venoms just destroy nids, nothing else, IDK why your so "Blah blah blah dont play like that blah blah blah".
BACK ON TOPIC:
IDK how the new DoM will be but I cant wait to see the rules.
SHUPPET wrote: 14 venoms. Sheesh. Not gunna have many points for AT there. But yeah Venoms are pretty hard to deal with for Nids.
You dont need AT for Nids, they have No armor.
I believe he is looking at the list from a Take-All-Comer's perspective. Anyone can tailor. Question is, can you build a list that can handle all the other armies as well as Tyranids? The list is no good if it can't do that.
But if you play by the rules you dont even chose a army or list until you know the Points and game type. So really, I can have 5 armies, see what Game type it is and then pick the best army for that objective. But no one plays like that.
A true TAC list should not care what army you play against or what mission/deployment you play in. As for points, you need to make it scalable you that you can take out units or add them in to adjust for how many points you guys play at. Normally, in most places, there is a norm (for example, where we play, it is usually with 1850 armies) and then you can adjust from there.
The only time you should have multiple lists is if they are for different power levels. For example, I usually just bring 2 lists - my tournament TAC list and a more casual, themed TAC list depending on what type of opponent I go up against. If I meet Joe Newbie, I bring my more casual and fun list. However, if I go up against Johnny Hardcore who is practicing for a tournament, then I take out my tournament list for him to practice against. However, you shouldn't have to tailor against your opponent.
Also something to note - although I also agree that you can attempt to assault the turn that you come in, it may not be to your benefit. Even if you have a short charge range that you probably won't fail, over watch is not kind to common spores. Could negate the blast entirely. Finally, you can use your mines that miss as an area denial unit. If you get two or three you can spread them out to block a unit's movement for a turn (no maelstrom objective for you!) Even if they shoot at you, they still can't move (unless you're eldar, but if you are then you have jetbikes and tanks that don't care anyhow)
luke1705 wrote: Also something to note - although I also agree that you can attempt to assault the turn that you come in, it may not be to your benefit. Even if you have a short charge range that you probably won't fail, over watch is not kind to common spores. Could negate the blast entirely. Finally, you can use your mines that miss as an area denial unit. If you get two or three you can spread them out to block a unit's movement for a turn (no maelstrom objective for you!) Even if they shoot at you, they still can't move (unless you're eldar, but if you are then you have jetbikes and tanks that don't care anyhow)
I was thinking something more like against tanks, that cant Overwatch, The Question now is, is it Counted as being in assault and strikes rear? or does it work like Blast shooting attacks?
Don't the rules for the mucolid says that it hits side armor against vehicles? It's not actually attacking as it has no Attack characteristic. It just launches an assault and then you follow its special rules to see how the blast is resolved.
Amishprn86 wrote: Whats everyone ruling on Spore from Biovores and assaulting after being shot and misses?
Going by RAW they spawn and then suffer the biovores S4 blast.
It says S8 in the white dwarf for Mucolid
jy2 wrote: Don't the rules for the mucolid says that it hits side armor against vehicles? It's not actually attacking as it has no Attack characteristic. It just launches an assault and then you follow its special rules to see how the blast is resolved.
What i was trying to say is that usually you don't spawn mines at all on a miss, since they get detonated by the same shot that generated those. Nowhere does it say to not resolve the blast.
jy2 wrote: Check the rules for the spore mines in the Tyranid codex. Except for the strength and AP, it is exactly the same in terms of how it works.
I know this is a 1in a Million happening but I really want to know, if you have Spore mine that Charged (Rules say at I10 step it explodes) what if there is a Multi charge and what you fighting Against is also I10, and the Spore mine kills it, does it still strike back at I10? (Say you tied it up with gants so you Could get that S8 hit off to try and Instant kill it something, and you didnt care if a couple gants die with it).
lol I know it most likely will never happen, but I just love knowing details in rules really well, I want to better understand is all.
Amishprn86 wrote: Whats everyone ruling on Spore from Biovores and assaulting after being shot and misses?
Going by RAW they spawn and then suffer the biovores S4 blast.
If you play 2 biovores and the first one misses, as the other blast is resolved at the same time (because it is a same unit using the same weapon on the same target) there is no reason for the mines to suffer the 2nd blast. Am I wrong?
jy2 wrote: Check the rules for the spore mines in the Tyranid codex. Except for the strength and AP, it is exactly the same in terms of how it works.
I know this is a 1in a Million happening but I really want to know, if you have Spore mine that Charged (Rules say at I10 step it explodes) what if there is a Multi charge and what you fighting Against is also I10, and the Spore mine kills it, does it still strike back at I10? (Say you tied it up with gants so you Could get that S8 hit off to try and Instant kill it something, and you didnt care if a couple gants die with it).
lol I know it most likely will never happen, but I just love knowing details in rules really well, I want to better understand is all.
If the spore mine detonates, it's dead. Doesn't matter if the other unit attacks back or not (if it survives at all). But for the sake of argument, the target would still get its attacks if it were I10 as well.
Spoletta wrote: What i was trying to say is that usually you don't spawn mines at all on a miss, since they get detonated by the same shot that generated those. Nowhere does it say to not resolve the blast.
For Spore mines? Why would you not? You resolve the blast, and on a miss, resolved with nothing to hit, you then place the mines.
Spoletta wrote: What i was trying to say is that usually you don't spawn mines at all on a miss, since they get detonated by the same shot that generated those. Nowhere does it say to not resolve the blast.
For Spore mines? Why would you not? You resolve the blast, and on a miss, resolved with nothing to hit, you then place the mines.
You place the mines immediately after determining the final position of the blast, so yes, before resolving the blast.
Iechine wrote: Sounds like you're playing with children.
Seconded. SHUPPET has a nice sig of jy2 talking about WAAC and players evolving from fluffy and casual gamers to experience, competitive players.
There is nothing wrong with having a competitive and tough list because you want to win.
Everything is wrong with having double standards, being a rules-shark, cheating...you get the gist.
An opponent doesn't have to play your list if they don't want to or feel that it wouldn't be a fun game as they brought a casual list. Check with your opponent if they would be happy playing the list. Communication is king. Communication is life.
Verviedi wrote: Can I have a list that will let me win games but not get me accusations of being a WAACTFG?
LOL no not in this game. Some people can't stand losing to the point that you could bring 3x Maleceptors, 3 squads of max size spoe mines, 54 Rippers and 3 Haruspex, all lead by their mighty warlord Old One Eye, and people would still accuse you of being WAAC when you beat them. The same mentality exists in Starcraft and Dota, some people hate admitting their mistakes and these are the people who will still be thinking 10 years from now that their unfocused list of whatever Space Marine crap they think looks the coolest should be more than capable of delivering free wins against other armies because space marines are the best, and anything that can stomp them must be overpowered cheese. Rest assured until their mentality improves the player won't either.
I think you should IGNORE the whiners, and draw your own line where you think the cheese begins, as relying on the tearbears to do it for you will result in either losing every game to them or being a WAAC p.o.s., so don't let this affect your builds. As a player of multiple armies it's very hard to justify calling anything in Tyranids cheese, which is the main reason my Tau went back on the shelf and Nids became my main - I don't like restricting myself from the best units in the dex but in Tau's case they were too much and I couldn't build my list to be the most competitive that they could be without bringing some stupid cheese build, so I drew the line. Nids hardest is still very balanced, and not impossible for any army to have a good game against.
Read my sig, Jy2 explains why it's OK to care about winning and play at higher levels, and if you aren't building to win well then you probably shouldn't rage and throw a temper tantrum when you lose seeing as winning isn't that important for you. I find that I'm happy with the outcome of a game win or lose, and the real WAAC players are the ones who get upset with a loss and try to take a morale high ground like "Your list shouldn't be any stronger than the power level I have decided is perfect, which just coincidentally is the same as my ragtag list, and if you beat it ipyour list is obviously too OP and not in the spirit of the game".
They are saying what suits their current position, not something well thought out, they shouldn't be payed any mind.
Yeah, there's a certain stigma attached to "WAAC" lists, and some people will judge you for it no matter what you do. As long as you don't go out of your way to crush someone with a less competitive list, it should, for most decent people, be fine. Like others have said, it's all in the attitude. Have a chat with you opponent, compliment his army, give advice if he wants to take it, let him go back and shoot with a unit he's forgotten about. If you make the game enjoyable for both players, it doesn't really matter that you've tabled him by Turn 4.
Looks like an interesting list. I don't know if I'd pay the points for the Adrenal glands on the gargs. Especially when there's so few of them. Personally I just prefer the bodies for units like that (when I'm not playing Apoc with my 1 model/1000 points rule, that is )
Something you might also consider is taking out the Lord of Change and a squad of horrors to run a unit of screamers with as many ML3 heralds of tzeentch on a disc as you have points for. You'll have to do the math to see what you'll have to change around and what you can fit (and afford! Those suckers are expensive!) but I like the much cheaper ML3 and the stupid shenanigans that a screamer unit can bring to the table. At the very least, you're likely looking at 2+ re-rollable jink (and it's not hard to get cursed earth and the grimoire to give them their 2++ re-rollable). What I like about it now is that it's not broken - it doesn't pump out 24 strength 6 shots or do most of the shenanigans that it could do in sixth. But strength 5 AP 2 armourbane in close combat is nothing to be sniffed at, nor is the amount of regular attacks they can put out. Plus 2-3 Tzeralds give you like 9 warp charge for 360 points (if you give them the discs to keep up with the screamers), all in ONE FOC SLOT. That's a BIG deal if you want to try a psychic nonsense army
Verviedi wrote: Can I have a list that will let me win games but not get me accusations of being a WAACTFG?
WAACTFG is the attitude, not the army behind a person.
Agree with pinecone if you still want to have people to play games.
I brought only 2 winged dakkarants, and some people chewed me out for "not knowing this game was for fun" and I was running a "WAAC list"
My list was:
Flyrant (Devs+eGrubs)
Flyrant (Devs+eGrubs)
Rippers
Rippers
30 Termagants w/ 15 devs
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Dakkafex
Mawloc
Exocrine
That looks like a really solid list. As multiple people have said, WAAC isn't about the list. If you're going to win "at all costs", you're not going to be playing a dice game haha. If you're cheating on movement and measurement and giving yourself unfair advantages that are outside of the legal rules of the game, then yes you are WAAC. I'm certain that you're not doing any of those things, simply because of that thread that you had where that Tau player pulled that sort of stuff on you (like abusing deployment and terrain setup). Whoever thinks you're WAAC, just explain to them what that guy was doing.
If you are using sound strategy and tactics to play a good list at a high level, then good for you! Those other guys should aspire to be as good a general as you. If they were, then they would have every bit as good of a chance to beat you. In the Grey Knight player's defense, 1500 is a tough points value to play a deathstar at. So much of the army is tied up in that one unit, it's tough to play if you don't know the game really well.
My advice for you going forward is this: keep improving your game and be gracious in victory as well as defeat. I don't mean to say that I think you're not doing that, but often times I will chat with my friends after the game, helping them to see where they went wrong during the game if I notice something "why were you shooting at my Pyrovore on the turn that I landed my Hive Tyrant?", to which my opponent would say, "Well....I was just really confused. I'd never seen that one unit before and I didn't understand why you would ever land your Flyrant. It felt like a trap". But the point is I try to help them better understand my army as I try to better understand their tactics so that both of us can improve. It's usually a great discussion.
Finally, the easiest way to not be even mistakenly called WAAC is to bring two lists (as Jy2 mentioned not long ago). Once you know your army (and have played someone at least once) you'll likely know the general power level of their list and can adjust your list accordingly. When I want to try out one of my better lists, I just tell my opponent before the game starts. I show them my list and say, "how do you feel about going up against something like this?" There's nothing wrong with them saying, "no thanks I don't feel like playing a competitive list. I'd rather play at a more casual level because that's where my list is at", and I can then choose a different set-up. If I ever rent out some space at my FLGS what I would love to do is say, "here are my 6 lists. Roll a D6, and I'll play that one. You can change your list however you'd like after you see my list if you want". That's my dream haha
AG on Gargoyles used to be very important, IDK about now days, But S4 on the charge against like vehicles was very good at one point... I remember 5th Ed I did this all the time and It did wonders, But the game was such a different world at that point.
What if I told you... The GK guy was the Tau player from that thread!
He actually was. He switched armies to GKs for some reason.
Well then it all makes sense. Odd that he switched to an army that is much tougher to win with against Tyranids, but good for you! Have some fun and bring the hurt. Grey Knights are typically a great matchup for us as long as we don't give too many chances for them to force kill our big gribblies. Keep him at 17.5 inch range and you'll win pretty much every game. Also, make sure that when you roll psychic scream (5) you use it EVERY TURN, on 3 or maybe even 4 dice. All his units are psykers, so you'll be rolling 2d6 + 2 and then subtracting his leadership, but since you'll have him within Shadow in the Warp range he is going to be really sad. -3 to his leadership applies for that power as well so it'll be 2d6 + 2 minus 7 or 6. That's going to be a lot of wounds that bypass armor saves and cover saves, but not invulnerable saves (and make sure he tests for leadership at the end of the psychic phase if you do enough damage). Sad terminators are sad
Living Artillery Node:
3 Warriors(BS)
Exocrine
3 Biovores
Aegis Line w/ Quad gun
His List:
Spoiler:
This is approximate because I'm not the most familiar with CSM.
Chaos Lord (Mark of Khorne, Demon Weapon that gave +2 Stength and D6 extra attacks)
Daemon Prince (Burning Brand, Khorne, Power Armor, Wings)
15 Khorne Berzekers w/ a Champion (Power Weapon)
5 Plague Marines in a Rhino (Dozer Blade)
5 Plague Marines in a Rhino (Dozer Blade)
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Heldrake
Chaoes Land Raider (Dozer Blade) <- I think this was a forgeworld variant, because it had all of the Khorne Bezerkers and the lord inside it.
Forgeworld Predator w/ 2 TL-Heavy Bolters, and a Torrent)
3 Obliterators
Mission: Maelstrom (Tactical Escalation).
Deployment (Hammer and Anvil):
Spoiler:
I deployed 1st, and put out my Aegis line at my deployment edge. I had the Malanthrope on the Quad gun in the middle with the Exocrine on one side and the Carnifex on the other, and the biovores trailing out behind. The warriors were to the Carnifex side. The Gargoyle were flanked beside the Exocrine with a little conga-line to get shrouded from the Mawloc.
I put the Termagants, Tyrannofex, and Hormagants w/ Tyranid Prime in Tyrannocytes, and left them and my mawloc in reserves.
He counter deployed me well with the Land Raider move up the middle toward the Malantrhope, and the Rhinos on the same flank as the Gargoyles, but also behind a large piece of terrain that was giving them cover saves against the Quad Gun. The Predator was between the Rhinos. Inexplicably he put the cultist right out in the open on his deployment edge. To the flank away from the gargoyles. I guess his reasoning was so that he could run them toward Maelstrom objectives early.
Turn 1:
Spoiler:
I went first. My biovores evaporated a squad of cultists, while my warriors did some damage to the other squad and pinned it. I advanced the Carnifex onto terrain, but left him just in range of the Malanthrope so that he would have a 3+ cover. The Gargoyles moved forward onto terrain and conga lined back to the Malan for a cover save. Otherwise things sat where they were and took pot shots.
On his turn he advanced his rhinos, Land Raider, and Predators. He glided his Demon Prince onto the terrain piece facing down my Carnifex. As I had hoped, he disembarked the plague marines, and fired pretty much everything into the gargoyles. The torrent on the tank did good damage, but I rolled well on saves vs the rest. Lost about 12 Gargoyles. The Demon prince put a wound on my Carnifex, and then attempted to charge and took a wound from overwatch. He failed the 10 inch charge. I don't know why he attempted this.
Score
Tyranids: 2 (first blood)
CSM: 0
Turn 2:
Spoiler:
All of my reserves came in. The Mawloc hit! on top of 5 plague marines, and did 5 wounds, but he made 2 FNP rolls. So he did 2 more wounds, and they made both FNP. So he mishapped and died. My Termagants came in behind the Rhinos. They scattered a bit, but there wasn't anywhere for them to go so they basically hit the target. The Tyrannofex came in in front of the Rhinos. My warlord came in beside the Demon prince, but behind a rhino as well so that the pod could pop it. I advanced my Carnifex right at that demon prince, considering a charge if shooting took it down to 1 wound. The Gargoyles advanced to the 2 remaining marines that the Mawloc left. Everything else stayed gunlined up.
My Tyrannofex started shooting. He hit a Marine, the predator (primary Target), and a Rhino with both templates, but only managed to take a hull point of the rhino. Then my Termagants opened up and killed the predator. My Tyranid prime, Exocrine, and Carnifex all fired into the Deamon prince, and killed it. Honestly, the Exocrine did all the work. (4 wounds, 3 failed jinks). The warriors killed a couple cultists, but failed to pin this time. Quad gun failed to hit a rhino which would have gotten a good cover save. The bioves Killed 4 plague marines.
Then came the 3 Tyrannocytes. They each had 5 small blasts that had to fire at the closest target. One shot at the remaining plague marine and managed to kill it, and also 3 Termagants (Scatter). One shot at the back of a rhino, and did one hull point to immobilize it. It also killed 3 Termagants, a Gargoyle, and 2 Hormagants. The last one shot at the same rhino, but was hitting front armor. It killed 4 Hormagants. This was a thoroughly frustrating affair. Having to roll 15 times for scatter, and it was scattering all over the place. Because I had gobs of gribbles in the vicinity, I took more damage than my opponent.
Spoiler:
In assault, my 7 remaining gargoyles charged into the 2 remaining plague marines where they would stay for quite some time.
On his turn 2, his heldrake came in (I should have interceptored it with the quad gun, but forgot I could). It killed 4 termagants (leaving me all 10 Devourers, but no more fleshborers). His Oblits came in behind my Biovores and killed one. He advanced his Land Raider towards my Aegis, and disembarked. The Lord split off to tangle with my malanthrope, while the Bezerkers went after my Warriors. Shooting did nothing with a 2+ cover save. He actually failed both of his charges (A 2" charge over the Aegis he rolled a 3, and a 1" charge over the aegis he roll snake eyes). I felt bad for him, so I just told him to play as if he made the charges. In assault, they killed 1 warrior, and I killed one Bezerker. The lord took a wound off of the Malanthrope. The Malanthrope's Challenge ability saved it.
Score
Tyranids: 4 (first blood)
CSM: 0
Turn 3:
Spoiler:
There wasn't all that much todo. I headed my Hormagants toward the Bezerkers. My Termagants got in position to kill the immobilized rhino. The Carnifex moved toward the land raider. The TFex fired both templates at the rear armor of the remaining Rhino, and did 1 wound. It only had 1 hull point left, so he changed it, but did 6 wounds. HOW + 4 Attacks didn't roll a 4+ to kill the damn thing. The biovores moved up to take the quad gun, and took 2 wounds off the Heldrake shaking and stunning it. The Carnifex also shot at it, but it saved the only glance. The Exocrine did 3 wounds to the Obliterators. In assault my warriors killed another Bezerker then died. The Malanthrope died..
NOTE: I forgot to shoot the Tyrannocytes.
On his turn. He put his bezerkers back into the land raider and claimed an objective with it. He also got his cultists onto an objective, and his living Rhino onto an objective to score ascendancy. His Lord assaulted my exocrine and did 2 wounds while saving the 1 wound I did back on his 4++.
Score
Tyranids: 7 (first blood)
CSM: 4
Turn 4:
Spoiler:
There wasn't much to do. My Tyrannofex finally killed the rhino that had been vexing him. The Termagants scored an objective. The hormagants + Prime scored an objective. The quad gun finished the Heldrake, thanks to the Biovores making synapse.
With most things dead or locked in combat, it was time for the Tyrannocytes to do their thing. 1 was closer to the oblits, and the other 2 were closer to the Cultists. I did 7 wounds to the 2 oblits, and they failed 3 saves and died! At this point, a friend started chatting with my opponent. Because it takes so damn long to fire the Tyrannocytes. I rolled the 10 blasts on the Cultists. At the end there were something like 30, 4+ covers saves (GTG on area) for him to make on 8 cultists. It was absurd. The Cultists died.
Spoiler:
Then it was time for Mr. Big Time. The Carnifex moved to charge the Land Raider. He did 1 glance with Hammer of Wrath, and 2 Pens with his attacks. One of the pens rolled an explode which killed 2 Bezerkers. In assault, my Exocrine took 2 wounds, and did 1 back.
On his turn his dwindling bezerkers charged my Dakkafex with a battle cry about how Khorne was going to be so pissed that they wrecked the car. 2 died to overwatch, and they did 2 wounds to the Dakkfex, and he did 1 back. His lord actually failed to wound the exocrine, but made his 4++.
Tyranids: 10 (first blood)
CSM: 4
Turn 5:
Spoiler:
He just had 4 Bezerkers left, and the lord. So I sent the Biovore, and Tyrannofex in to help the Exocrine, and the Hormagants and Tyranid Prime to help the Dakkafex. The Tyranid Prime did his thing, and all of the Bezerkers died. More Surprising, the Tfex put 4 wounds on the lord, and he failed 3 saves and died (after killing the exocrine). Complete Tabling.
Final Score:
Tyranid: 17 (First Blood, Warlord, Line Breaker)
CSM: Tabled.
My Thoughts on the Tyrannocytes:
One test is not sufficient to arrive at long term conclusions, but They did what I wanted them to do. Got my stuff in position to pop tanks. However, their shooting with the blasts was so slow, and did more damage to my stuff than his on the turn they arrived. They dropped a mini deathstar next to his mini deathstars (Demon Prince, and Bezerkers in a Land Raider), but the Demon Prince died to shooting, and the Land Raider moved away, and it took several turns for me to catch the guys inside. Unless you are facing a really gunliney army, I am not sure that the pods are going to be a good Melee delivery system. Also, if you have them delivering gants, you should probably stick to deathspitters, or keep your distance more. I think I'm going to drop the Prime + Hormagants from my list in favor of a Flyrant for the next game. Maybe some zoeys and rippers.
What if I told you... The GK guy was the Tau player from that thread! He actually was. He switched armies to GKs for some reason.
He swapped from last year's cheese-flavor-army to this year's one, and then complains that Tyranid are cheese. After of course using a bunch of WAAC tactics to get the win last time, and refusing to play on even terms, he accuses anybody to beat him of being TFG.
Seriously, feth this guy. I don't even want to hear about him anymore as he is like the definition of the worst type of player 40k brings.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A month or two from now those GK are gonna have SW allies for pods. Mark my words.
Hey, quick thought. Would it be worth adding a Tyranid Prime to a group of Devourer Gaunts for protected Synapse in the Tyrannocyte? Instead of needing ANOTHER Tyrannocyte to deliver the Synapse, why not have a single Prime in a Brood. 17 Gaunts and a Prime... Uses up a valuable HQ but...
Probably depends if you think you even need synapse after dropping in. With flyrants you can move within 12" and get things under control if you need it. Several gribblies can usually function fine out of it anyway(Mawlocs/Dimachaerons).
So i'm kind of new here, been lurking here for a few days in this thread to see what Tyranids where up too and I was very surprised to see GW releasing new models and even giving us back our mycetic spores! I shelfed my tyranids shortly after the 'new' dex was released, and now I want to give them a shot again, first on a non competitive level, and maby attend a few small tourny's after I refined my list.
Currently, this is what I want to run:
1750 total
HQ flyrant with double BL dakka and electroshock grubs 240pts
Elite
Hive guard 2x 110pts
Vthrope 2x 90pts
Zthorpe 50pts
Troops
Horma's 15x 75pts
Terma's 30x 120pts
Tervigon with crushing claws and electroshock grubs 220 pts
warriors with barbed strangler (3x) 100 pts
Fast attack
Give crone 155 pts
Heavy
Exocrine 170pts
Toxicrene 160 pts + Tyrannocyte 75 pts
Tyrannofex acid spray, electroshock grubs 185 pts
The units I'm not completely sure of are the Tervigon and the full brood of terma's, as i'm not sure if that unit would work well with the rest. I want to play a bit on the aggresive side, walking up the tyrannofex and horma's, the rest following. I could also take out 10 terma's, the tervigon and exocrine and add 20 gargoyles and 2 dakka fexes (this leaves me currently with 10 points to spare). I don't want to build a list accommodating only for the toxicrene, but i really like the rules and model, so a list in which it is an addition would be cool.
What if I told you... The GK guy was the Tau player from that thread!
He actually was. He switched armies to GKs for some reason.
He swapped from last year's cheese-flavor-army to this year's one, and then complains that Tyranid are cheese. After of course using a bunch of WAAC tactics to get the win last time, and refusing to play on even terms, he accuses anybody to beat him of being TFG.
Seriously, feth this guy. I don't even want to hear about him anymore as he is like the definition of the worst type of player 40k brings.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A month or two from now those GK are gonna have SW allies for pods. Mark my words.
What do you mean? His 100% no scatter deepstriking Dreadknights are already devastating enough.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Hey, quick thought. Would it be worth adding a Tyranid Prime to a group of Devourer Gaunts for protected Synapse in the Tyrannocyte? Instead of needing ANOTHER Tyrannocyte to deliver the Synapse, why not have a single Prime in a Brood. 17 Gaunts and a Prime... Uses up a valuable HQ but...
As you can see in the batrep a few posts before yours I tried something very, very similar.
It is my opinion that a Tyranid prime is too expensive to be taken as Synapse only, and that you should look for an additional function for him in your army. Because he is limited in what function that can be, I suggest MEQ + MC killer. Just keep him away from TEQ.
trindaros wrote: So i'm kind of new here, been lurking here for a few days in this thread to see what Tyranids where up too and I was very surprised to see GW releasing new models and even giving us back our mycetic spores! I shelfed my tyranids shortly after the 'new' dex was released, and now I want to give them a shot again, first on a non competitive level, and maby attend a few small tourny's after I refined my list.
Currently, this is what I want to run:
1750 total
HQ flyrant with double BL dakka and electroshock grubs 240pts
Elite
Hive guard 2x 110pts
Vthrope 2x 90pts
Zthorpe 50pts
Troops
Horma's 15x 75pts
Terma's 30x 120pts
Tervigon with crushing claws and electroshock grubs 220 pts
warriors with barbed strangler (3x) 100 pts
Fast attack
Give crone 155 pts
Heavy
Exocrine 170pts
Toxicrene 160 pts + Tyrannocyte 75 pts
Tyrannofex acid spray, electroshock grubs 185 pts
The units I'm not completely sure of are the Tervigon and the full brood of terma's, as i'm not sure if that unit would work well with the rest. I want to play a bit on the aggresive side, walking up the tyrannofex and horma's, the rest following. I could also take out 10 terma's, the tervigon and exocrine and add 20 gargoyles and 2 dakka fexes (this leaves me currently with 10 points to spare). I don't want to build a list accommodating only for the toxicrene, but i really like the rules and model, so a list in which it is an addition would be cool.
Feedback would be nice
If you want to keep the core of your list, I would recommend dropping the something and finding the points for giving the Tervigon a Trannocyte. I don't think the Toxicrene will survive by itself and will give you some forward synapse. Do you have any biovores? You are so close to running a Living Artillery Formation.
Since this is where the Tyranid players really lurk on dakka, I thought I would post this idea rather than anywhere else.
The new spore pack allows you to build either:
1) 1 Tyrannocyte (and the top half of 1 Mucolid)
or
2) 1 Sporocyst and 1 Mucolid
The key problem as far as I see it is that the Tyrannocyte and the Mucolid share most of their tentacles. This either means you assemble the Tyrannocyte without the tentacles or we harvest the tentacles from somewhere else.
In completely unrelated news, the Zoanthrope/Venomthrope triple pack just happens to come with 12 decent sized 'spare' tentacles if you build them as Zoanthropes...
I'm thinking I may just build mine without the tentacles, but I worry that some of the core pieces of the Mucolid migjt also be used in constructing the pod. My other concern would be that the Venomthrope tentacles wouldn't be sturdy enough for the pod, as that thing is a top heavy mess as is. The epitome of a model that looks good but really has transportation/game use issues. That and the whip that the forge world Khorne daemon lord has....I mean, what were they thinking??? It could be made out of metal and still wouldn't be durable
Tomorrow night I have a game arranged at my club against a guy wanting to try out his new Chaos Warhound. He has specifically asked for my "most overpowered list" to try it against, so I'm looking for ideas. He normally plays Nurgle/Khorne-heavy CSM+daemons, and we're playing 2k pts. I expect he'll run it as a Nurgle Warhound using the rules in IA13, leaving ~1200pts to fill.
The question is what I run against him. While the obvious choice is Skyblight, I don't own any Crones or Harpies and don't really like the idea of proxying them (I have enough models I rarely get to use). What I do have to pick from is:
xttz wrote: Tomorrow night I have a game arranged at my club against a guy wanting to try out his new Chaos Warhound. He has specifically asked for my "most overpowered list" to try it against, so I'm looking for ideas. He normally plays Nurgle/Khorne-heavy CSM+daemons, and we're playing 2k pts. I expect he'll run it as a Nurgle Warhound using the rules in IA13, leaving ~1200pts to fill.
The question is what I run against him. While the obvious choice is Skyblight, I don't own any Crones or Harpies and don't really like the idea of proxying them (I have enough models I rarely get to use). What I do have to pick from is:
Harridan
1 Flyrant
Hierophant
Both kinds of Hierodule
Tons of C-Fexes and T-Fexes
3 'Tyrannocytes'
7 Zoans
6 Hive Guard
3 Malanthropes
Pretty much anything else
Go Flyer heavy with the Harridan included. The Warhound is more than likely to tear ground forces apart, so you want the majority of it in the air.
I realize you don't have Hive Crones/Harpies but ideally, 2 Flyrants and a Harridan should suffice - maybe even three Flyrants. (why do you have one Flyrant?! Minimum two! )
If lords of War are involved, I'd agree with the Harridan. It's a very effective killer because few destroyer weapons can get at it.
By comparison, Bio-Titans are lethal bullies when engaging 'normal' opponents but struggle to take on anything their own size.
Tyrannocyte dropping close-range killers in amongst his lines is probably a good idea as he'll probably be loth to fire his turbolasers (if he has them) 'danger close' to his own expensive infantry.
I suspect Forgeworld will be doing a brisk trade in these things over the next few months!
Right; further on the thoughts for a 'pure drop army'.
The most I seem able to fit in 1500 points is 5 monsters in Tyrannocytes.
3 Mucolid Spores seems a minimum to survive turn one, especially since they can't voluntarily go to ground and will be a lot harder to hide than ripper swarms. I'd rather have some lictors in play as well.
One idea for your dissection:
HQ:
Tervigon with Cluster Spines, Crushing Claws, Electroshock Grubs
Tervigon with Cluster Spines, Crushing Claws, Electroshock Grubs
Heavy Support
Toxicrene
Toxicrene
Toxicrene
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Fortifications:
Aegis Line with Comms Relay
I know the stompy bugs aren't as good as they could be. If the fighting force is going to be 5 monstrous creatures, I'm not sure what the ratio of different species should be.
Could even do a 'one of each' force - One each of Tervigon, Malaceptor, Tyrannofex, Toxicrene and Haruspex - not the most effective but I suspect visually quite impressive if you're trying for a Nidzilla army that's one step larger than the traditional wall of carnifex.
If you want to keep the core of your list, I would recommend dropping the something and finding the points for giving the Tervigon a Trannocyte. I don't think the Toxicrene will survive by itself and will give you some forward synapse. Do you have any biovores? You are so close to running a Living Artillery Formation.
I actually tried getting a few, but no success.
Currently, my options for an extra tyrannocyte are dropping the horma's, dropping the warriors and giving the tervigon the miasma cannon, or dropping terma's to 11 and moving the tervi to HQ slot.
I'll mostlikely drop the terma's to 11 and keep them in the back and drop the tervi next to the toxi.
Frozocrone wrote:Go Flyer heavy with the Harridan included. The Warhound is more than likely to tear ground forces apart, so you want the majority of it in the air.
I realize you don't have Hive Crones/Harpies but ideally, 2 Flyrants and a Harridan should suffice - maybe even three Flyrants. (why do you have one Flyrant?! Minimum two! )
FMCs are a pain to transport, plus I only really play casual games, and generally prefer the ground-based Nidzilla approach - it's why I own 12 Carnifexes
I'm definitely not a WAAC player, and deliberately skipped having anything to do with Skyblight-based lists when it came out.
locarno24 wrote:Tyrannocyte dropping close-range killers in amongst his lines is probably a good idea as he'll probably be loth to fire his turbolasers (if he has them) 'danger close' to his own expensive infantry.
Yeah I do have a fair number of Zoans. I've played this guy a few times and he rarely brings much in the way of psychic support, so I should be able to brute-force past any denys.
The general idea is for the Zoans and devilgaunts to drop in and try to kill the biggest threats (hopefully catching the rear of the titan in the case of the former). Starting the Flyrant and Harridan on the board or not will depend on if I get first turn and which (strategic) warlord trait I roll.
This leaves the Malanthropes and some guants to start on the board out of sight as much as possible, and present too many targets with Shrouded to remove before reserves start to arrive. Then can then move around to grab objectives and/or pile into the enemy lines.
xttz wrote: Tomorrow night I have a game arranged at my club against a guy wanting to try out his new Chaos Warhound. He has specifically asked for my "most overpowered list" to try it against, so I'm looking for ideas. He normally plays Nurgle/Khorne-heavy CSM+daemons, and we're playing 2k pts. I expect he'll run it as a Nurgle Warhound using the rules in IA13, leaving ~1200pts to fill.
The question is what I run against him. While the obvious choice is Skyblight, I don't own any Crones or Harpies and don't really like the idea of proxying them (I have enough models I rarely get to use). What I do have to pick from is:
Harridan
1 Flyrant
Hierophant
Both kinds of Hierodule
Tons of C-Fexes and T-Fexes
3 'Tyrannocytes'
7 Zoans
6 Hive Guard
3 Malanthropes
Pretty much anything else
Go Flyer heavy with the Harridan included. The Warhound is more than likely to tear ground forces apart, so you want the majority of it in the air.
I realize you don't have Hive Crones/Harpies but ideally, 2 Flyrants and a Harridan should suffice - maybe even three Flyrants. (why do you have one Flyrant?! Minimum two! )
Three ideas present themselves:
1) The Harridan (fliers are awesome versus ground-pounder Titans with their ignorable large blasts and whatever other fliers you have
2) Massed Zoanthropes in your Tyrannocytes; gatling Warp Lances are able to deal considerable damage if you manage to get them off (bring Tyrants for extra batteries)
3) Hierophant with the Acid Blood biomorph. Rush this monstrosity forwards (surround with Malanthropes and try to keep one foot in some ruins for 2+ cover), assault his titan and then laugh madly as you rip it apart with a combination of GMC melee and horrendous splashback from your acid blood - this thing is the ultimate suicide assaulter and just about any enemy titan will die with it)
Other novel ideas include
4): The Tyrannofex Gunbeast formation from the Valedor Apocalypse book (gives them twin-linked/tank hunter) which can make Rupture Cannons surprisingly viable, and with T6/6W/2+ and the ability to spread out a bit they are tougher to get rid of than you think
5) Haywire spam from Tyrants and Tyrannocyte-carried Tervigons/Tyrannofexes (you could even deep-strike your Tervigons, Haywire him, spawn a Termagant screen and give them Crushing Claws for a run assault the following turn)
beardman3000 wrote: so what was the ruling on instinctive fire and why? do all weapons fire, and can it shoot "through" itself
All weapons fire, shoots through itself at the enemy unit closest to its base. Instinctive Fire permits you to fire all five weapons, monstrous creatures measure range from the base.
Wilson wrote: So if we had to make a top 5 units list to go in a tyranocyte- what would go where?
5. 3 Zoanthropes (with Neurothrope maybe?)
4. Tyrannofex with Electroshock Grubs
3. Termagants with Devourers
2. Dimachaeron
1. Carnifex with Devourers
The violet text is my take on it personally. I will be skipping the Dimachaeron because I'm just personally not a fan of it, but in a Pod I will recognize it as a very viable choice. For me, my Pods will be Carnifex and Tyrannofex.
In no particular order, I'd say some good candidates would probably be:
- Dimachaeron (needs no explanation I reckon)
- Toxicrene (doesn't have the durability to walk across the board, but if you can pod it close to some ruins for a 2+ cover save to whether that turn of shooting?)
- Devourer 'gants (messes with most infantry and vehicle rear armour)
- Tyrannofex with Acid Spray and thorax swarm ('deal with me' kind of unit to drop in someone's back field)
- Zoanthrope brood (get close enough for some warp lance action)
I just got the Exocrine kit. How would I go about magnetizing it?
Where do I get WH40k magnets?
And most of all, should I bother? I like the Haruspex, but will it be viable with Tyrannocites?
In addition, how do I deal with a PaladinStar? The frigging things never die thanks to 2 wounds, 2+ Sv, 5+ Invul, 5+ FNP, and IWND.
Unit comp is 1 Daemonhammer, 1 Halbred, Nemesis Banner, Psycannon, Apothecary, and Terminator Libby for invis/VoD
5 - Toxicrene - as noted, pod it down into cover then charge next turn. Great building clearance.
4 - Tyrannofex with acid spray and dessicator larvae. I know electroshock grubs are better general-purpose but I don't want to waste the awesome acid spray.
3 - Hive Guard with Shock Cannons
2 - Dakkafex - Because
1 - Tervigon with Crushing Claws and Electroshock Grubs - for pretty much the reason XYPTC suggests
In m opinion? These units are probably the best things to spud in.
5. Warriors- Synapse, Shadows, Objective Secured, and guns. Can also be kitted out with a decent CC loadouts if that's your thing.
4. Dimachaeron- Giant CC monster. Won't make an immediate impact on the board, but his assault capability may make up for it.
3. Termagants- Objective secured and a high number of low strength shots. Good for clearing out infantry or putting a few glances on a transport.
2. Tervigon- Synapse, Shadows, and a Psyker.Can throw out a template or two(Miasma Cannon), and/or a couple shots/Large Blast. Can be Objective Secured. Can instantly drop more units in the backfield, effectively giving it a cover save/assault deterrent.
1. Carnifex- 12 Twinlinked Str 6 shots right where you want them, and tank-crushing assault power to boot. Can be kitted out for all melee if that's your thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Verviedi wrote: I just got the Exocrine kit. How would I go about magnetizing it?
Where do I get WH40k magnets?
And most of all, should I bother? I like the Haruspex, but will it be viable with Tyrannocites?
Hobby Stores or amazon. Sometimes even RadioShack. You need to get small Rare Earth magnets. I always think it's good to magnetize- the next codex/edition may change some things around and make a subpar unit competitive again.
In addition, how do I deal with a PaladinStar? The frigging things never die thanks to 2 wounds, 2+ Sv, 5+ Invul, 5+ FNP, and IWND.
Unit comp is 1 Daemonhammer, 1 Halbred, Nemesis Banner, Psycannon, Apothecary, and Terminator Libby for invis/VoD
Kill everything but. Try to kite It around or tarpit it.
Sinful Hero wrote: In m opinion? These units are probably the best things to spud in.
5. Warriors- Synapse, Shadows, Objective Secured, and guns. Can also be kitted out with a decent CC loadouts if that's your thing.
4. Dimachaeron- Giant CC monster. Won't make an immediate impact on the board, but his assault capability may make up for it.
3. Termagants- Objective secured and a high number of low strength shots. Good for clearing out infantry or putting a few glances on a transport.
2. Tervigon- Synapse, Shadows, and a Psyker.Can throw out a template or two(Miasma Cannon), and/or a couple shots/Large Blast. Can be Objective Secured. Can instantly drop more units in the backfield, effectively giving it a cover save/assault deterrent.
1. Carnifex- 12 Twinlinked Str 6 shots right where you want them, and tank-crushing assault power to boot. Can be kitted out for all melee if that's your thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Verviedi wrote: I just got the Exocrine kit. How would I go about magnetizing it?
Where do I get WH40k magnets?
And most of all, should I bother? I like the Haruspex, but will it be viable with Tyrannocites?
Hobby Stores or amazon. Sometimes even RadioShack. You need to get small Rare Earth magnets. I always think it's good to magnetize- the next codex/edition may change some things around and make a subpar unit competitive again.
In addition, how do I deal with a PaladinStar? The frigging things never die thanks to 2 wounds, 2+ Sv, 5+ Invul, 5+ FNP, and IWND.
Unit comp is 1 Daemonhammer, 1 Halbred, Nemesis Banner, Psycannon, Apothecary, and Terminator Libby for invis/VoD
Kill everything but. Try to kite It around or tarpit it.
Haha yah. I achieved self sustaining tarpit on it last game I played. I parked a Tervigon near it and kept puking out moar gaunts to aid the tarpit.
Turn 2-
20 Termagants charged 10 man strike squad after killing 5 with Devourer fire. Killed 1 in CQC, lost 7 Gaunts.
Turn 3- Moar Gaunts that the Tervigon had spawned last turn charged. +12 Gaunts. Tervigon spawned 12 more. Paladins charged into the tarpit and killed 6 more Gaunts.
Turn 4- Termagants killed 0 things, newly spawned Termagants failed charge. Paladins swept the tarpit.
When my opponent saw me ruthlessly charging wave after wave of littlebugs into the Tarpit he said that I didn't know how to see the big picture and that I was wasting all my most important models. I LOL'd.
How many summons do you want to get off a turn? Realistically it takes 5 dice to be successful. You have 11 warp charge +your d6 so an average of 14-15 a turn. You should be able to get 2 a turn and one or two other bug powers off. Personally...I would drop the second set of horrors for two single brood zoans and bring horrors in as one of your summons. You can still take the primaris from maelific when they are summoned. With the LOC you only have one forward summoning unit as the horrors will disappear in the open pretty quickly.
Wilson wrote: So if we had to make a top 5 units list to go in a tyranocyte- what would go where?
5. 3 Zoanthropes (with Neurothrope maybe?)
4. Tyrannofex with Electroshock Grubs
3. Termagants with Devourers
2. Dimachaeron
1. Carnifex with Devourers
The violet text is my take on it personally. I will be skipping the Dimachaeron because I'm just personally not a fan of it, but in a Pod I will recognize it as a very viable choice. For me, my Pods will be Carnifex and Tyrannofex.
I'd go with this as well.
Verviedi wrote: I just got the Exocrine kit. How would I go about magnetizing it?
Where do I get WH40k magnets?
And most of all, should I bother? I like the Haruspex, but will it be viable with Tyrannocites?
In addition, how do I deal with a PaladinStar? The frigging things never die thanks to 2 wounds, 2+ Sv, 5+ Invul, 5+ FNP, and IWND.
Unit comp is 1 Daemonhammer, 1 Halbred, Nemesis Banner, Psycannon, Apothecary, and Terminator Libby for invis/VoD
I can't tell you how to magnetize the exocrine.
However, against the paladinstar, you've got 2 options:
1. Try to tarpit it with lots of gribblies or screen them out.
Redemption wrote: Dakkafex as number one for the pod? At the base cost of 225 for the pod and the 'fex, why not spend 5 points more and get a Winged dakka'rant?
Oh please, I'll be doing that too!
But, it adds to the pressure and gives me a viable assault option while also lending 15 strength 5 shots to the Rear armor of whatever I need dead. Also, my area is less friendly towards multiple CADs, so I max out at two Flyrants. (They already allow FW/Formations, so I'm not going to be too pushy on the multiple CAD thing, I don't feel I need it really). I do agree that a Flyrant is the best unit in our codex (outside of the FW Malanthrope), but 2 is enough for me. Now, I just can't wait for December when I can start playtesting all of our fun new toys...
Verviedi wrote: I just got the Exocrine kit. How would I go about magnetizing it?
Where do I get WH40k magnets?
And most of all, should I bother? I like the Haruspex, but will it be viable with Tyrannocites?
Magnetizing the Exocrine was one of my better decisions. It really magnetizes well, and switching between the two units is easy. I will post a picture of how I magnetized it and a little step by step tomorrow.
The Haruspex isn't viable today, but might become so in the not to distant future.
For starters, it requires extra FoC which comes with costs of its own and isn't allowed everywhere. For second, pod comes with a significant 5 Venom Cannons for just 20 points more than the Flyrant. 3rdly, DS Carnifex cover your AT really really well, which is a major hole for Nids.
Automatically Appended Next Post: my post was in response to:
Redemption wrote: Dakkafex as number one for the pod? At the base cost of 225 for the pod and the 'fex, why not spend 5 points more and get a Winged dakka'rant?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shooting comparisons aside, there is big advantages that come with dumping a few Carnifexs into the middle of your opponents army that aren't quite as awesome from a Tyrant. Same with 10 VC blasts guaranteed to do a bit of damage !
xttz wrote: Tomorrow night I have a game arranged at my club against a guy wanting to try out his new Chaos Warhound. He has specifically asked for my "most overpowered list" to try it against, so I'm looking for ideas. He normally plays Nurgle/Khorne-heavy CSM+daemons, and we're playing 2k pts. I expect he'll run it as a Nurgle Warhound using the rules in IA13, leaving ~1200pts to fill.
The question is what I run against him. While the obvious choice is Skyblight, I don't own any Crones or Harpies and don't really like the idea of proxying them (I have enough models I rarely get to use). What I do have to pick from is:
Harridan
1 Flyrant
Hierophant
Both kinds of Hierodule
Tons of C-Fexes and T-Fexes
3 'Tyrannocytes'
7 Zoans
6 Hive Guard
3 Malanthropes
Pretty much anything else
A harridan is, surprisingly, the most durable of all our gargantuan creatures. Better yet, it should kill his war bound in three turns. You could go a little cheaper and stick a Barbed Hierodule in ruins with a Malanthrope/Venomthrope nearby. Let that dude rock 2+ cover and hope he doesn't get a lucky 6. If you want to go man mode against him, definitely take the Hierophant with the acid blood upgrade. In cc, each wound that it takes causes a wound with only invul saves allowed in return (and FNP) but most importantly it does D3 glancing hits to any vehicle. That warhound will be so sad, especially since you can run twice if you really want to book it to close combat. Always remember that your cover saves are your best friend against strength d. Take that 3+! Don't forget night fighting! Also important is that strength 10 AP 3 (which is the gun you'll be taking regardless of which LOW you choose) is the magic number for daemon princes. That's the "take a jink save or die" gun. Or in the case of our guns, probably "take 3-6 jink saves or die". Even that Nurgle Prince isn't going to enjoy that
Redemption wrote: Dakkafex as number one for the pod? At the base cost of 225 for the pod and the 'fex, why not spend 5 points more and get a Winged dakka'rant?
In addition to the other reasons posted it's two seperate MCs as well. Targeting two different units, contesting two objectives, generally harder to remove two units, and all the other bonuses for two units over one. Basically you're trading mobility for more firepower and seperate MCs.
xttz wrote: Tomorrow night I have a game arranged at my club against a guy wanting to try out his new Chaos Warhound. He has specifically asked for my "most overpowered list" to try it against, so I'm looking for ideas. He normally plays Nurgle/Khorne-heavy CSM+daemons, and we're playing 2k pts. I expect he'll run it as a Nurgle Warhound using the rules in IA13, leaving ~1200pts to fill.
The question is what I run against him. While the obvious choice is Skyblight, I don't own any Crones or Harpies and don't really like the idea of proxying them (I have enough models I rarely get to use). What I do have to pick from is:
Harridan
1 Flyrant
Hierophant
Both kinds of Hierodule
Tons of C-Fexes and T-Fexes
3 'Tyrannocytes'
7 Zoans
6 Hive Guard
3 Malanthropes
Pretty much anything else
A harridan is, surprisingly, the most durable of all our gargantuan creatures. Better yet, it should kill his war bound in three turns. You could go a little cheaper and stick a Barbed Hierodule in ruins with a Malanthrope/Venomthrope nearby. Let that dude rock 2+ cover and hope he doesn't get a lucky 6. If you want to go man mode against him, definitely take the Hierophant with the acid blood upgrade. In cc, each wound that it takes causes a wound with only invul saves allowed in return (and FNP) but most importantly it does D3 glancing hits to any vehicle. That warhound will be so sad, especially since you can run twice if you really want to book it to close combat. Always remember that your cover saves are your best friend against strength d. Take that 3+! Don't forget night fighting! Also important is that strength 10 AP 3 (which is the gun you'll be taking regardless of which LOW you choose) is the magic number for daemon princes. That's the "take a jink save or die" gun. Or in the case of our guns, probably "take 3-6 jink saves or die". Even that Nurgle Prince isn't going to enjoy that
Yeah basically when someone tells you "bring your most overpowered list" and you own a Harridan, you bring the Harridan. Then just build cost effective units, Flyrants Mawlocs and Living Artillery is your best bet here.
Redemption wrote: Dakkafex as number one for the pod? At the base cost of 225 for the pod and the 'fex, why not spend 5 points more and get a Winged dakka'rant?
That's assuming you've already maxed out on your flyrants in the first place.
Yeah the Harridan is clearly a no-brainer. I'm more curious about to to support it with in the absence of Skyblight.
Just thinking further on what I said earlier about Zoanthropes... with a mark of nurgle this thing will be a Daemon with a 5++ save and IWND. That means that after passing a psychic test, not getting denied and hitting on 3+ there's still a chance that 1 in 3 hits will be stopped.
Instead I could drop 6 Hive Guard with Shockcannons at point blank, and thanks to the size of the titan they almost cannot miss. It's likely they'll strip about 4-5 HP a turn before saves, which seems a bit more reliable than jumping through all the hoops for Warp Lance.
The obvious drawback though is a lack of synapse. I could go unbound to get more Elites, but that leaves me with very little on the table, especially on the first turn.
If you (the generic you) are running the harridan, you should definitely consider running 20 gargoyles as well. That's....
1) 20 fleshborer shots from the harridan each and every turn,
2) a unit that can assault/tarpit the turn your harridan goes into Hover mode, and
3) helps to protect the harpy the turn it hovers. You hover, gargoyles can charge the Warhound to tie it up and then next turn, the harridan can safely charge the Warhound without eating a turn of shooting from it.
trindaros wrote: So i'm kind of new here, been lurking here for a few days in this thread to see what Tyranids where up too and I was very surprised to see GW releasing new models and even giving us back our mycetic spores! I shelfed my tyranids shortly after the 'new' dex was released, and now I want to give them a shot again, first on a non competitive level, and maby attend a few small tourny's after I refined my list.
Currently, this is what I want to run:
1750 total
HQ flyrant with double BL dakka and electroshock grubs 240pts
Elite
Hive guard 2x 110pts
Vthrope 2x 90pts
Zthorpe 50pts
Troops
Horma's 15x 75pts
Terma's 30x 120pts
Tervigon with crushing claws and electroshock grubs 220 pts
warriors with barbed strangler (3x) 100 pts
Fast attack
Give crone 155 pts
Heavy
Exocrine 170pts
Toxicrene 160 pts + Tyrannocyte 75 pts
Tyrannofex acid spray, electroshock grubs 185 pts
The units I'm not completely sure of are the Tervigon and the full brood of terma's, as i'm not sure if that unit would work well with the rest. I want to play a bit on the aggresive side, walking up the tyrannofex and horma's, the rest following. I could also take out 10 terma's, the tervigon and exocrine and add 20 gargoyles and 2 dakka fexes (this leaves me currently with 10 points to spare). I don't want to build a list accommodating only for the toxicrene, but i really like the rules and model, so a list in which it is an addition would be cool.
Feedback would be nice
Well...Tervigons are not terrible, but they are a little over costed. So yes, you'll likely be happier if you swap them out for something else. And Dakkafexen are a very good choice.
Volume of fire, focusing down your FMC's with my three Tyrants and keeping the rest of my guys castled up for the most part with their cover saves against your weak shooting.
Verviedi wrote: I just got the Exocrine kit. How would I go about magnetizing it?
Where do I get WH40k magnets?
And most of all, should I bother? I like the Haruspex, but will it be viable with Tyrannocites?
In addition, how do I deal with a PaladinStar? The frigging things never die thanks to 2 wounds, 2+ Sv, 5+ Invul, 5+ FNP, and IWND.
Unit comp is 1 Daemonhammer, 1 Halbred, Nemesis Banner, Psycannon, Apothecary, and Terminator Libby for invis/VoD
GW doesn't make magnets, if they did they would be "chapter approved, and cost 7$ each. You should be able to find good ones on e-bay, or your local store.
The simplest answer to a Paladin star is to Tarpit, then kill everything else. So a big Brood of Gaunts is likely to be a very good solution. Mawlocs like Paladins as well, they are spicy, yet meaty.
Iechine wrote: Volume of fire, focusing down your FMC's with my three Tyrants and keeping the rest of my guys castled up for the most part with their cover saves against your weak shooting.
The problem would be the cover save, a 2+ rerolleable is incredibly tough.
Iechine wrote: Volume of fire, focusing down your FMC's with my three Tyrants and keeping the rest of my guys castled up for the most part with their cover saves against your weak shooting.
The problem would be the cover save, a 2+ rerolleable is incredibly tough.
Shoot at whatever doesn't have the 2+ reroll. They can't get that on everything. Once you've got 1 or 2 DP's down, you throw all the dice you have at denying one of the defensive buffs, and focus down whatever isn't buffed.
Basically, you are greatly overestimating the ability of 7th edition armies to cast many, many buffs in the psychic phase. You are getting 3-4 major buff off + the Grimoir. Just ignore wherever those buffs go. As Warp dice go away, so do the number of successful buffs. Also, the damage output of that army isn't all that high except in assault.
Iechine wrote: Volume of fire, focusing down your FMC's with my three Tyrants and keeping the rest of my guys castled up for the most part with their cover saves against your weak shooting.
The problem would be the cover save, a 2+ rerolleable is incredibly tough.
Shoot at whatever doesn't have the 2+ reroll. They can't get that on everything. Once you've got 1 or 2 DP's down, you throw all the dice you have at denying one of the defensive buffs, and focus down whatever isn't buffed.
Basically, you are greatly overestimating the ability of 7th edition armies to cast many, many buffs in the psychic phase. You are getting 3-4 major buff off + the Grimoir. Just ignore wherever those buffs go. As Warp dice go away, so do the number of successful buffs. Also, the damage output of that army isn't all that high except in assault.
The thing is that the buff is the shrouding, which works in a 6" bubble.
How many summons do you want to get off a turn? Realistically it takes 5 dice to be successful. You have 11 warp charge +your d6 so an average of 14-15 a turn. You should be able to get 2 a turn and one or two other bug powers off. Personally...I would drop the second set of horrors for two single brood zoans and bring horrors in as one of your summons. You can still take the primaris from maelific when they are summoned. With the LOC you only have one forward summoning unit as the horrors will disappear in the open pretty quickly.
This list was sort of more theory crafting than anything else. I have yet to pick up the Daemon codex so just knocked this up from what I could guess at with Battlescribe and interwebz..
My idea for this army is all the Nids castle first turn and then hit hard turn 2 with Mawlocs and Pod coming in, and Flyrants having rushed up. The Daemons are there to throw out ground troops and help me dominate the board with the Nids doing the majority of damage.
I don't need to be summoning a load of units turn 1-2 and can happily have a more slow go summoning, whether or not this will work I don't know?
Iechine wrote: Volume of fire, focusing down your FMC's with my three Tyrants and keeping the rest of my guys castled up for the most part with their cover saves against your weak shooting.
The problem would be the cover save, a 2+ rerolleable is incredibly tough.
Shoot at whatever doesn't have the 2+ reroll. They can't get that on everything. Once you've got 1 or 2 DP's down, you throw all the dice you have at denying one of the defensive buffs, and focus down whatever isn't buffed.
Basically, you are greatly overestimating the ability of 7th edition armies to cast many, many buffs in the psychic phase. You are getting 3-4 major buff off + the Grimoir. Just ignore wherever those buffs go. As Warp dice go away, so do the number of successful buffs. Also, the damage output of that army isn't all that high except in assault.
The thing is that the buff is the shrouding, which works in a 6" bubble.
You are planning to play demons clustered around a 6" bubble? If so I guess I just ignore you score objectives and win the game. With all that energy focused on defensive abilities, you aren't put out much offense, and by keeping everything clustered up you are putting out much scoring. I've never played a demon player who clustered up like that, but I'm not sure if I'm too worried about one. Summoning and Biomancy is what gives me fits. Every time I've played demons who roll on telepathy, the game has been fairly easy. Usually there is a DP or something that manages to stay invisible, and thus not take fire, but the rest of the army goes down quickly.
Iechine wrote: Volume of fire, focusing down your FMC's with my three Tyrants and keeping the rest of my guys castled up for the most part with their cover saves against your weak shooting.
The problem would be the cover save, a 2+ rerolleable is incredibly tough.
Shoot at whatever doesn't have the 2+ reroll. They can't get that on everything. Once you've got 1 or 2 DP's down, you throw all the dice you have at denying one of the defensive buffs, and focus down whatever isn't buffed.
Basically, you are greatly overestimating the ability of 7th edition armies to cast many, many buffs in the psychic phase. You are getting 3-4 major buff off + the Grimoir. Just ignore wherever those buffs go. As Warp dice go away, so do the number of successful buffs. Also, the damage output of that army isn't all that high except in assault.
The thing is that the buff is the shrouding, which works in a 6" bubble.
You are planning to play demons clustered around a 6" bubble? If so I guess I just ignore you score objectives and win the game. With all that energy focused on defensive abilities, you aren't put out much offense, and by keeping everything clustered up you are putting out much scoring. I've never played a demon player who clustered up like that, but I'm not sure if I'm too worried about one. Summoning and Biomancy is what gives me fits. Every time I've played demons who roll on telepathy, the game has been fairly easy. Usually there is a DP or something that manages to stay invisible, and thus not take fire, but the rest of the army goes down quickly.
I agree with Tag. My answer would be: 2 Mawlocs.... Make them pay for clustering. Sure the Mawlocs don't hit Fliers, but you sure can force them out of the bubble as per TftD rules....
Iechine wrote: Volume of fire, focusing down your FMC's with my three Tyrants and keeping the rest of my guys castled up for the most part with their cover saves against your weak shooting.
The problem would be the cover save, a 2+ rerolleable is incredibly tough.
Shoot at whatever doesn't have the 2+ reroll. They can't get that on everything. Once you've got 1 or 2 DP's down, you throw all the dice you have at denying one of the defensive buffs, and focus down whatever isn't buffed.
Basically, you are greatly overestimating the ability of 7th edition armies to cast many, many buffs in the psychic phase. You are getting 3-4 major buff off + the Grimoir. Just ignore wherever those buffs go. As Warp dice go away, so do the number of successful buffs. Also, the damage output of that army isn't all that high except in assault.
The thing is that the buff is the shrouding, which works in a 6" bubble.
You are planning to play demons clustered around a 6" bubble? If so I guess I just ignore you score objectives and win the game. With all that energy focused on defensive abilities, you aren't put out much offense, and by keeping everything clustered up you are putting out much scoring. I've never played a demon player who clustered up like that, but I'm not sure if I'm too worried about one. Summoning and Biomancy is what gives me fits. Every time I've played demons who roll on telepathy, the game has been fairly easy. Usually there is a DP or something that manages to stay invisible, and thus not take fire, but the rest of the army goes down quickly.
I agree that the army is a death star army. But unlike most death stars armies it is made of 2 death stars that are quite mobile, they are not that easy to ignore.
Daemon summoning is really good. I recently played against a semi-summoning Daemon army. He brought 4 Lvl monsters. What did I bring? Deathleaper and 5 lictors.
In that game, he summoned 850-pts of units against me....and that is only with 2 psykers summoning!!! I swear, I could do nothing to stop him and he was making his summoning rolls. In any case, here is my take against a summoning army:
1. You have to play the position game here. Try to force him to summon away from the objectives. Make sure you place your units in positions close to the objectives. Basically, I deepstruck my units - mawloc, dimachaeron in tyrannocyte, lictors - into his backfield to force him to summon units to deal with them. Now I lost everything (well, almost everything) in his backfield, but it served to prevent him from spreading out onto the other objectives. Basically, my strategy was to control the Movement phase by forcing him to summon units where I wanted, not where he wanted.
2. Target priority is crucial. Take out his mobility and his summoners. Oftentimes, they are one and the same. However, take out the easier targets first. Kill what you can more efficiently kill. In other words, ignore the 2++ re-rollable ones.
3. Pray he doesn't get the good powers or that he fails to cast the powers when he needed it most. Really, you need a little luck when playing against a Daemon summoning army.
Nemesis Dreadknight (2 Power fists, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon , Personal Teleporter)
4 Purgation Squad (Psycannons) + Purgator Justicar
He actually won thanks to a few rolls going his way at critical times (For instance the game ending on 5). We were playing BAO #2, Kill points primary, and Maelstrom secondary.
The most notable thing was how he systematically deconstructed my army.
Turn 1, he lit up my gargoyles and gants. Mainly this was Cleansing Flame on his Librarian which deep struck on turn 1, but his bolters helped a bit.
Turn 2, he finished my gribblies (My rippers scattered 11", mishapped, and died), and started on my mid weight stuff like my Zoey, Malanthrope, and Crone (Cleansing Flame)
Turn 3, he finished my mid weight stuff, and started on my Barbed Heirodule
Turn 4, he finished my Barbed heirodule (in Assault).
Turn 5, he took pot shots at my Flyrants.
I was doing quite a bit of damage back to him. At the end of turn 5, he had 2 Terminators and the Dread Knight left, while all 3 of my flyrants were all doing just fine. Starting turn 2, he was outscoring me on Maelstrom, because I had little board control left, and he kept rolling the same 2 objectives, but despite all of his combat squads, we tied on kill points. I had 1st blood, warlord, and could have gotten line breaker. He had linebreaker, and I needed to kill the dreadknight to deny it to him.
So the new Neurothrope sounds great, but only against some targets. Against low leadership a brood can decimate targets and has quite the potential to F some things up, although I dont see much of a reason to deep strike them in. As always, a reliance on psychic powers to deal damage seems sketchy, but thats quite a lot of potential S10 AP2 for Tyranids.
Iechine wrote: So the new Neurothrope sounds great, but only against some targets. Against low leadership a brood can decimate targets and has quite the potential to F some things up, although I dont see much of a reason to deep strike them in. As always, a reliance on psychic powers to deal damage seems sketchy, but thats quite a lot of potential S10 AP2 for Tyranids.
The real question that for me could make Zoeys viable: Do non-shooting profile (so no Assault 1) witch fires roll to hit? I've always assumed they still do, and my local group ruled it tht way so I never tried to argue it as it never affected me. Quite frankly I'm not even sure what the Argument either way are, but Id heard earlier that theres a debate on whether Psychic scream needs a too hit rol, so I imagine the rules would apply here. Was it ever settled whether PS rolls to hit?
Having 6 Zoans in a brood makes using both Tyrannocytes and Warp Blast far more efficient. I'll now feel far more confident about throwing 4-6 dice at that power to make it harder to Deny, knowing it'll produce 6 lance shots.
It also makes my choice easier for tomorrow's game. 6 Zoans and 3 Hive Guard it is
Iechine wrote: So the new Neurothrope sounds great, but only against some targets. Against low leadership a brood can decimate targets and has quite the potential to F some things up, although I dont see much of a reason to deep strike them in. As always, a reliance on psychic powers to deal damage seems sketchy, but thats quite a lot of potential S10 AP2 for Tyranids.
The real question that for me could make Zoeys viable: Do non-shooting profile (so no Assault 1) witch fires roll to hit? I've always assumed they still do, and my local group ruled it tht way so I never tried to argue it as it never affected me. Quite frankly I'm not even sure what the Argument either way are, but Id heard earlier that theres a debate on whether Psychic scream needs a too hit rol, so I imagine the rules would apply here. Was it ever settled whether PS rolls to hit?
Haha, no. That still a raging debate and several threads (mine included when I asked about the Maleceptor) were locked.
On the Neurothrope - a unit of three Zoanthropes, one with Neurothrope could be a viable AT unit. 175 points mind, but they can generate their own Warp Charges (and the Neurothrope can LOS to keep generating WC).
Nemesis Dreadknight (2 Power fists, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon , Personal Teleporter)
4 Purgation Squad (Psycannons) + Purgator Justicar
He actually won thanks to a few rolls going his way at critical times (For instance the game ending on 5). We were playing BAO #2, Kill points primary, and Maelstrom secondary.
The most notable thing was how he systematically deconstructed my army.
Turn 1, he lit up my gargoyles and gants. Mainly this was Cleansing Flame on his Librarian which deep struck on turn 1, but his bolters helped a bit.
Turn 2, he finished my gribblies (My rippers scattered 11", mishapped, and died), and started on my mid weight stuff like my Zoey, Malanthrope, and Crone (Cleansing Flame)
Turn 3, he finished my mid weight stuff, and started on my Barbed Heirodule
Turn 4, he finished my Barbed heirodule (in Assault).
Turn 5, he took pot shots at my Flyrants.
I was doing quite a bit of damage back to him. At the end of turn 5, he had 2 Terminators and the Dread Knight left, while all 3 of my flyrants were all doing just fine. Starting turn 2, he was outscoring me on Maelstrom, because I had little board control left, and he kept rolling the same 2 objectives, but despite all of his combat squads, we tied on kill points. I had 1st blood, warlord, and could have gotten line breaker. He had linebreaker, and I needed to kill the dreadknight to deny it to him.
Apologies, but your list is actually not legal. You cannot use an Allied Detachment with the same faction as your Primary Detachment, so you would need another Troops choice in the second detachment.
Iechine wrote: So the new Neurothrope sounds great, but only against some targets. Against low leadership a brood can decimate targets and has quite the potential to F some things up, although I dont see much of a reason to deep strike them in. As always, a reliance on psychic powers to deal damage seems sketchy, but thats quite a lot of potential S10 AP2 for Tyranids.
The real question that for me could make Zoeys viable: Do non-shooting profile (so no Assault 1) witch fires roll to hit? I've always assumed they still do, and my local group ruled it tht way so I never tried to argue it as it never affected me. Quite frankly I'm not even sure what the Argument either way are, but Id heard earlier that theres a debate on whether Psychic scream needs a too hit rol, so I imagine the rules would apply here. Was it ever settled whether PS rolls to hit?
You do need to roll to hit any Witchfire other than Beams or Novas (or I guess Templates, but that's pretty self explanatory). The rules simply say that a Witchfire power must roll to hit.
Nemesis Dreadknight (2 Power fists, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon , Personal Teleporter)
4 Purgation Squad (Psycannons) + Purgator Justicar
He actually won thanks to a few rolls going his way at critical times (For instance the game ending on 5). We were playing BAO #2, Kill points primary, and Maelstrom secondary.
The most notable thing was how he systematically deconstructed my army.
Turn 1, he lit up my gargoyles and gants. Mainly this was Cleansing Flame on his Librarian which deep struck on turn 1, but his bolters helped a bit.
Turn 2, he finished my gribblies (My rippers scattered 11", mishapped, and died), and started on my mid weight stuff like my Zoey, Malanthrope, and Crone (Cleansing Flame)
Turn 3, he finished my mid weight stuff, and started on my Barbed Heirodule
Turn 4, he finished my Barbed heirodule (in Assault).
Turn 5, he took pot shots at my Flyrants.
I was doing quite a bit of damage back to him. At the end of turn 5, he had 2 Terminators and the Dread Knight left, while all 3 of my flyrants were all doing just fine. Starting turn 2, he was outscoring me on Maelstrom, because I had little board control left, and he kept rolling the same 2 objectives, but despite all of his combat squads, we tied on kill points. I had 1st blood, warlord, and could have gotten line breaker. He had linebreaker, and I needed to kill the dreadknight to deny it to him.
Apologies, but your list is actually not legal. You cannot use an Allied Detachment with the same faction as your Primary Detachment, so you would need another Troops choice in the second detachment.
Normally you would be correct, however BAO ruled against Double CAD and instead allowed allying with your Primary.
Nemesis Dreadknight (2 Power fists, Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon , Personal Teleporter)
4 Purgation Squad (Psycannons) + Purgator Justicar
He actually won thanks to a few rolls going his way at critical times (For instance the game ending on 5). We were playing BAO #2, Kill points primary, and Maelstrom secondary.
The most notable thing was how he systematically deconstructed my army.
Turn 1, he lit up my gargoyles and gants. Mainly this was Cleansing Flame on his Librarian which deep struck on turn 1, but his bolters helped a bit.
Turn 2, he finished my gribblies (My rippers scattered 11", mishapped, and died), and started on my mid weight stuff like my Zoey, Malanthrope, and Crone (Cleansing Flame)
Turn 3, he finished my mid weight stuff, and started on my Barbed Heirodule
Turn 4, he finished my Barbed heirodule (in Assault).
Turn 5, he took pot shots at my Flyrants.
I was doing quite a bit of damage back to him. At the end of turn 5, he had 2 Terminators and the Dread Knight left, while all 3 of my flyrants were all doing just fine. Starting turn 2, he was outscoring me on Maelstrom, because I had little board control left, and he kept rolling the same 2 objectives, but despite all of his combat squads, we tied on kill points. I had 1st blood, warlord, and could have gotten line breaker. He had linebreaker, and I needed to kill the dreadknight to deny it to him.
Apologies, but your list is actually not legal. You cannot use an Allied Detachment with the same faction as your Primary Detachment, so you would need another Troops choice in the second detachment.
You can if you are using the BAO tournament rules....which was what he was doing.
I have heard a lot of people talking about them, where can I get them at? I know some people at my store would be interested in trying a more balanced game type.
Requizen wrote: Ah, my mistake. I am not familiar with BAO rules.
I have heard a lot of people talking about them, where can I get them at? I know some people at my store would be interested in trying a more balanced game type.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here is a little math hammer on spirit leech.
With 2 Dice:
With 3 Dice:
It is effective, but not that effective. Most of the time you are going to have to spend 2 dice, but you get 1 back. Warp Blast being WC 2 is still the problem.
I think with the new addition of a codex supplment and the new zoans I am under the impression that we will soon be legally allowed to run self allies.
with that in mind and with the new Zoans i've quickly jotted down the following list;
Flyrant
Devourers
Electro shock 240
Flyrant
Devourers
Electro shock 240
Rippers
DS 45
Rippers
DS 45
Malanthrope 85
3 Zoanthropes
Neurothrope 175
Dimachaeron 200
Exocrine 170
Biovores 120
Flyrant
Devourers 230
Rippers
DS 45
Tyrannocyte 75
Tyrannocyte 75
Total 1745.
The Neurothrope as warlord to allow the flyrants to fight aggressively.
Zoans in a Tyranocyte for second/third turn drop.
Dima in a Tyranocyte for second turn drop.
Biovores, Exo and Malan in a ruin for the entire game most likely to castle on a home ground objective.
Is this the right step forward? I really want to stick double toxicrenes in tyranocytes in here but the vulnerability to heavy bolters and Krak grenades scares me.
Requizen wrote: Ah, my mistake. I am not familiar with BAO rules.
I have heard a lot of people talking about them, where can I get them at? I know some people at my store would be interested in trying a more balanced game type.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here is a little math hammer on spirit leech.
With 2 Dice:
With 3 Dice:
It is effective, but not that effective. Most of the time you are going to have to spend 2 dice, but you get 1 back. Warp Blast being WC 2 is still the problem.
Were is the change coming from? You always rolling 3d6 for leadership check, so I assume this of warp charge dice. Personally I can see just tossing 1 dice for the warp charge. Impossible to peril and make the oppent spend deny dice. I always seem to have more dice than I need for most of the powers I use in my nid lists.
What do people usually keep shrouded most when using a malanthrope in a bastion? Since it can't really move, do they keep artillery back there? If I don't run biovores or exo's should I opt for a malanthrope without bastion?
Iechine wrote: Volume of fire, focusing down your FMC's with my three Tyrants and keeping the rest of my guys castled up for the most part with their cover saves against your weak shooting.
The problem would be the cover save, a 2+ rerolleable is incredibly tough.
Shoot at whatever doesn't have the 2+ reroll. They can't get that on everything. Once you've got 1 or 2 DP's down, you throw all the dice you have at denying one of the defensive buffs, and focus down whatever isn't buffed.
Basically, you are greatly overestimating the ability of 7th edition armies to cast many, many buffs in the psychic phase. You are getting 3-4 major buff off + the Grimoir. Just ignore wherever those buffs go. As Warp dice go away, so do the number of successful buffs. Also, the damage output of that army isn't all that high except in assault.
Grim, Fatey and FMC being a pain to shoot down , and gtg in ruins behind an aegis will give Tzeentch demons a 3++ re-roll ones. If he gets shrouding on an FMC or invisibility on the screamer start off plus the grim he can have a lot of 2++ rerollables for little to no warp charge and several models that need 6's to hit.
Noctem wrote: What do people usually keep shrouded most when using a malanthrope in a bastion? Since it can't really move, do they keep artillery back there? If I don't run biovores or exo's should I opt for a malanthrope without bastion?
If you don't have any Living Artillery Node stuff then Hive Guard are a good bet. Stick them on the battlements for 2+ cover and the ability to hit anything within 24".
So here is a little math hammer on spirit leech.
...
Were is the change coming from? You always rolling 3d6 for leadership check, so I assume this of warp charge dice. Personally I can see just tossing 1 dice for the warp charge. Impossible to peril and make the oppent spend deny dice. I always seem to have more dice than I need for most of the powers I use in my nid lists.
I was calculating the chance to manifest the psychic power, the chance to hit with it, and the average damage in the case you hit. Because you are 12.5% more likely to manifest the power on 3 dice, the overall average goes up. The average damage inflicted if you don't account for rolling to hit, or the psychic test, looks like this:
LD 7: 3.66
LD 8: 2.82
LD 9: 2.08
LD 10: 1.46
Verviedi wrote: I just got the Exocrine kit. How would I go about magnetizing it?
Where do I get WH40k magnets?
And most of all, should I bother? I like the Haruspex, but will it be viable with Tyrannocites?
In addition, how do I deal with a PaladinStar? The frigging things never die thanks to 2 wounds, 2+ Sv, 5+ Invul, 5+ FNP, and IWND.
Unit comp is 1 Daemonhammer, 1 Halbred, Nemesis Banner, Psycannon, Apothecary, and Terminator Libby for invis/VoD
Pretty easy to do and a good "starter" model for it. I need to do a little write up on how I did mine. Sent you a link to the images I have.
So here is a little math hammer on spirit leech.
...
Were is the change coming from? You always rolling 3d6 for leadership check, so I assume this of warp charge dice. Personally I can see just tossing 1 dice for the warp charge. Impossible to peril and make the oppent spend deny dice. I always seem to have more dice than I need for most of the powers I use in my nid lists.
I was calculating the chance to manifest the psychic power, the chance to hit with it, and the average damage in the case you hit. Because you are 12.5% more likely to manifest the power on 3 dice, the overall average goes up. The average damage inflicted if you don't account for rolling to hit, or the psychic test, looks like this:
LD 7: 3.66
LD 8: 2.82
LD 9: 2.08
LD 10: 1.46
Okay makes sense now. Your always helpful the numbers.
With the possibility of 6 zoeys in a pod, I immediately thought about their viability against Imperial Knights. They do their damage in the psychic phase, so the Knights shield won't protect it.
Unfortunately, if you roll 5 dice at it, 6 zoeys will only do an average of 2.89 wounds to an Imperial Knight. That includes the chance to manifest, hit, and the bonus damage for "Explodes" results. Our 375 points gets a pretty thorough beatdown from an imperial Knight's 375.
So then I went looking for other targets. Riptides are always a problem for me. A Neuro + 5 Zoeys in a pod (400 points) will do on average 2.77 wounds to a riptide assuming you are rolling 7 dice (plus a bonus 1). If the riptide has FNP, that damage drops to 1.85.
They do do fairly well against a group of Broadsides (2.77 dead from the zoeys), 1.65 wounds from the Neuro. So, on average they will wipe a squad of broad sides (about 210 points).
Against back armor of a Wave Serpent, they will do 3.25 pens. Against a Land Raider they will do 2.7 Hull points with a 36% of exploding it.
I'm just not seeing enough bang for the buck taking zoeys in a pod, or large squads of zoeys walking for that matter. Brotherhood of psychers is so crippling to larger broods of zoeys, and still the main reason that single zoeys as a backfield support unit (Warp Battery) is still the optimal way to take them.
Requizen wrote: Ah, my mistake. I am not familiar with BAO rules.
I have heard a lot of people talking about them, where can I get them at? I know some people at my store would be interested in trying a more balanced game type.
Not sure I would call them more balanced, but the BAOFAQ do help tighten the game play up a lot.
tag8833 wrote: With the possibility of 6 zoeys in a pod, I immediately thought about their viability against Imperial Knights. They do their damage in the psychic phase, so the Knights shield won't protect it.
Unfortunately, if you roll 5 dice at it, 6 zoeys will only do an average of 2.89 wounds to an Imperial Knight. That includes the chance to manifest, hit, and the bonus damage for "Explodes" results. Our 375 points gets a pretty thorough beatdown from an imperial Knight's 375.
So then I went looking for other targets. Riptides are always a problem for me. A Neuro + 5 Zoeys in a pod (400 points) will do on average 2.77 wounds to a riptide assuming you are rolling 7 dice (plus a bonus 1). If the riptide has FNP, that damage drops to 1.85.
They do do fairly well against a group of Broadsides (2.77 dead from the zoeys), 1.65 wounds from the Neuro. So, on average they will wipe a squad of broad sides (about 210 points).
Against back armor of a Wave Serpent, they will do 3.25 pens. Against a Land Raider they will do 2.7 Hull points with a 36% of exploding it.
I'm just not seeing enough bang for the buck taking zoeys in a pod, or large squads of zoeys walking for that matter. Brotherhood of psychers is so crippling to larger broods of zoeys, and still the main reason that single zoeys as a backfield support unit (Warp Battery) is still the optimal way to take them.
Hmmm can you try those numbers again with say 8-10 dice? I'm talking really securing the cast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As it stands however the Nuenthrope looks pretty unplayable, just like multi-model Zope units
Noctem wrote: What do people usually keep shrouded most when using a malanthrope in a bastion? Since it can't really move, do they keep artillery back there? If I don't run biovores or exo's should I opt for a malanthrope without bastion?
The "standard" plan is too hide the Winged Tyrants behind the Bastion (blocks LOS) and make sure every thing else has one piece inside the bubble. The Bubble is extra big, because it projects from the outside of the bastion. This keeps your force mostly intact vs Alpha strike forces. After the first turn, it is not uncommon for the bastion to be abandoned...it still can "claim" an objective just by sitting.
Just by looking at the new Zoan unit, this could be devastating to a lot of pyskers. Drop pod the zoeys and neuro dude next to a pysker, -3 ld because of shadows and then make your 3d6. Thats pretty nasty considering that at best, they would need to roll less than a 7.
tag8833 wrote: With the possibility of 6 zoeys in a pod, I immediately thought about their viability against Imperial Knights. They do their damage in the psychic phase, so the Knights shield won't protect it.
Unfortunately, if you roll 5 dice at it, 6 zoeys will only do an average of 2.89 wounds to an Imperial Knight. That includes the chance to manifest, hit, and the bonus damage for "Explodes" results. Our 375 points gets a pretty thorough beatdown from an imperial Knight's 375.
So then I went looking for other targets. Riptides are always a problem for me. A Neuro + 5 Zoeys in a pod (400 points) will do on average 2.77 wounds to a riptide assuming you are rolling 7 dice (plus a bonus 1). If the riptide has FNP, that damage drops to 1.85.
They do do fairly well against a group of Broadsides (2.77 dead from the zoeys), 1.65 wounds from the Neuro. So, on average they will wipe a squad of broad sides (about 210 points).
Against back armor of a Wave Serpent, they will do 3.25 pens. Against a Land Raider they will do 2.7 Hull points with a 36% of exploding it.
I'm just not seeing enough bang for the buck taking zoeys in a pod, or large squads of zoeys walking for that matter. Brotherhood of psychers is so crippling to larger broods of zoeys, and still the main reason that single zoeys as a backfield support unit (Warp Battery) is still the optimal way to take them.
I was surprised by your math so I did it myself and got a slightly worse number (not sure if you factored in the deny dice or not). That being said, it's very boom or bust. You'll cast it more than 80 percent of the time with 5 dice and more than 90 percent of the time with 6 dice. If they don't deny it (which is tough to do with WC 2, especially since you probably threw a bucket of dice at it and got more than 2 successes, your damage output increases substantially. That's not a fair thing to say, but it's kind of like the Mawloc. When it hits, you'll remember.
Let's do some quick math and bypass the casting probability and the denial probability. You hit with 4, fail to glance/pen with .666, glance with .66666, and pen with 2.6666. Those 2.6666 will on average do an extra .888 hull points from an explodes result, netting you a total of 4.22 hull points stripped on average. Even if the knight turns and shields for the next turn, it is still dead in all likelihood. You, on the other hand, are still kicking.
Important to note is that 4.2 hull points (increased to 5.1 against open topped) is still plenty for pretty much everything that isn't a super heavy. I don't know if I'll put it in a spore in every list (MOA would be awesome for these dudes) but it can definitely work and do some work. It definitely is vulnerable to small arms fire, just as much as Necron wraiths are. But they're not as much of a glass cannon as people might think. My wraiths motto is pretty much the same as that of the honey badger, so I can see these Zoanthropes being pretty similar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
specia_k_squared wrote: Just by looking at the new Zoan unit, this could be devastating to a lot of pyskers. Drop pod the zoeys and neuro dude next to a pysker, -3 ld because of shadows and then make your 3d6. Thats pretty nasty considering that at best, they would need to roll less than a 7.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but shadows will only work like that if the whole unit is a psyker (brotherhood of psykers, etc). Otherwise they can just test on their highest leadership, correct?
Well, you could pair Deathleaper with a Nope in a pod. May not lower the entire unit's LD much unless it's a lone model, but it's something to consider.
luke1705 wrote: I was surprised by your math so I did it myself and got a slightly worse number (not sure if you factored in the deny dice or not).
I don't usually factor in deny dice, because I don't know how many deny dice to factor in.
luke1705 wrote: Let's do some quick math and bypass the casting probability and the denial probability. You hit with 4, fail to glance/pen with .666, glance with .66666, and pen with 2.6666. Those 2.6666 will on average do an extra .888 hull points from an explodes result, netting you a total of 4.22 hull points stripped on average. Even if the knight turns and shields for the next turn, it is still dead in all likelihood. You, on the other hand, are still kicking.
So if we assume it goes off, and assume they fail to deny, you will generally do about 4 Hull points to an imperial Knight. Then the knight will turn towards you and kill 1-3 Zoeys with the battle cannon, and kill another 1-2 in assault. Then on your turn it finishes them off. You can't count on the Knight player not fighting back.
My big objection to your "Throw a bucket of dice" at the warp blast, is that your 5 zoeys give you 2 warp dice. If you've got 2 flyrants that is 6 warp dice. So generally if you throw more than 5 dice at it, you are giving up all of your psychic powers. It is probably worth it. That being said. I don't think squads of 6 zoeys are our answers to Imperial Knights. Flyrants, and Crones are still our best bet.
SHUPPET wrote: Hmmm can you try those numbers again with say 8-10 dice? I'm talking really securing the cast.
With 8 Dice you've got a 96.5% chance to manifest.
With 10 you've got essentially a 99% chance to manifest. You've also got good odds of perils, but with 5 zoeys, you can afford that.
Requizen wrote: Ah, my mistake. I am not familiar with BAO rules.
I have heard a lot of people talking about them, where can I get them at? I know some people at my store would be interested in trying a more balanced game type.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here is a little math hammer on spirit leech.
With 2 Dice:
With 3 Dice:
It is effective, but not that effective. Most of the time you are going to have to spend 2 dice, but you get 1 back. Warp Blast being WC 2 is still the problem.
Can you explain the results? Having trouble working them out.
I think that it is too much potatoes (infiltrating units) and not enough meat (actual, offensive units). Good luck trying to infiltrate all those units in any type of deployment that makes sense.
Hey Sean,
If you read this, we'd love to hear about your matchups at the 11th Company GT. Congrats, man!
My guess is that it is a Null Deployment army, with just 2 flyrants on the table and the rest of the army either infiltrating or deepstriking. Against an alpha-strike army who is going 1st, take the flyrants off the table and it's only infiltrators to start off with. Basically, it is a highly reactive army, somewhat similar to the way that I play.
Psychic Shriek is AoE and is a free roll and doesn't force you into taking 3 Zopes, but I'd say that the are both pretty bad.
Nenthrope is obviously an upgrade worth taking if you have 3+ Zopes in a squad, but I'm not sure if that's something you want to do. It's a lot of points to dedicate.
tag8833 wrote: So here is a little math hammer on spirit leech.
With 2 Dice:
With 3 Dice:
Can you explain the results? Having trouble working them out.
Sure. With 2 Dice, the chance of successfully manifesting is 3/4
A Zoey or Nuro is BS:4 so they are hitting 2/3 of the time.
As far as wounding, I had to enumerate all possible combinations of 3 dice. I then summed up each combination, and calculated the number of wounds done. Then I count the number of combinations that do more than 0 wounds, and divide by the total number of combinations (216)
Odds of doing nothing = 1 - (chance to Manifest * chance to hit * chance to wound)
For calculating the average wounds, it was a bit easier. I did the enumeration above, and just average the number of wounds done (Including the combinations that result in 0 wounds).
Average wounds = Average Wounds * chance to manifest * chance to hit
So the bit I needed clarification on, is that eg 2 dice LD 8 it has a 63% chance to miss or not wound, and if it succesfully goes through it averages 1.41 wounds? I dunno it seems like a very awkward table when yours are usually structured real well. I still don think I fully get it.
I thought psychic shriek was the primaris for telepathy? I know plenty of people that love that power.
Its great for drawing out dice as well as getting a lucky roll can completely change your game plan. Combined with shadows got a good chance of messing up some psykers.
There's no real reason to compare it in a vacuum to something that we have no access to unless the units between both dexes we took them on were a carbon copy of each other. Otherwise, you have to compare the unit as a whole.
SHUPPET wrote: So the bit I needed clarification on, is that eg 2 dice LD 8 it has a 63% chance to miss or not wound, and if it succesfully goes through it averages 1.41 wounds? I dunno it seems like a very awkward table when yours are usually structured real well. I still don think I fully get it.
I was mainly worried that this psychic power was feast or famine. To illustrate that I included the percent when it does nothing. I've seen people that do outcome distribution charts, but I don't know how to do that quickly, so I just do a little table of summary data.
So in that case, 63% of the time it will fail to wound. However the remaining 37% it will wound, and generally it will wound significantly (Average 3.8 wounds in that top 37%). When you average it out over all possible outcomes the average is just 1.41 wounds.
To try to sum it up a bit, while the mean is 1.41 wounds, there is an enormous variance of outcomes with the median outcome being 0 wounds. It is Babe Ruth. It either knocks the ball out of the park or strikes out. Very few results will actually be near that mean.
Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.
Amishprn86 wrote: How did OrdoSean handle the Ignore cover from Wave Serpents? I think Im missing something here.....
There are a lot of questions about his success with that list haha. I hope he enlightens us because my predominant theory is that GW rigged the tournament to sell more models with their shield of Baal campaign (just kidding Sean, we're all super proud of you!)
Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.
I might condense the Zoans into a single squad since you can now have 6 of them and that will allow you to cast Warp Lance more efficiently (although you'll be twice as sad if it gets denied)
The biggest weakness of this type of list is that it is technically unbound. Not that it's an illegal army for a tournament - GW has now allowed us to construct a list with no objective: secured units. Can you deal with drop pod marines owning every objective and having...I believe most tournament lists had like 18 OS units, either as drop pods or power armor marines. I'd also question why you need 5 Tyrannocytes. I see you'll be putting 2 groups of zoans in two of them, I suppose the gant squads in the other two, and the last one gets....a Venomthrope? I mean, yes it's all in your opponent's face but I don't see a whole lot of firepower in this list (shooting or close combat). What do you expect to happen when you get there? (Honest question that I'd like you to answe, to yourself if nothing else)
Amishprn86 wrote: How did OrdoSean handle the Ignore cover from Wave Serpents? I think Im missing something here.....
There are a lot of questions about his success with that list haha. I hope he enlightens us because my predominant theory is that GW rigged the tournament to sell more models with their shield of Baal campaign (just kidding Sean, we're all super proud of you!)
Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.
I might condense the Zoans into a single squad since you can now have 6 of them and that will allow you to cast Warp Lance more efficiently (although you'll be twice as sad if it gets denied)
The biggest weakness of this type of list is that it is technically unbound. Not that it's an illegal army for a tournament - GW has now allowed us to construct a list with no objective: secured units. Can you deal with drop pod marines owning every objective and having...I believe most tournament lists had like 18 OS units, either as drop pods or power armor marines. I'd also question why you need 5 Tyrannocytes. I see you'll be putting 2 groups of zoans in two of them, I suppose the gant squads in the other two, and the last one gets....a Venomthrope? I mean, yes it's all in your opponent's face but I don't see a whole lot of firepower in this list (shooting or close combat). What do you expect to happen when you get there? (Honest question that I'd like you to answe, to yourself if nothing else)
Unless I've added his units up wrong I don't think it's unbound.
2 HQ 6 Troops
3 Elite
2 Heavy
1 Fortification
5 Tyrannocytes taking up no slot.
Did you mix up Mucolids and Sporocyst mabye? Mucolid is the troop spore.
I'm quite curious how OrdoSean managed to take out an Admantine Lance formation - he had 2 Flyrants with grubs and some rending Lictors ... no tentaclids or other support - well mawlocs ... kudos to OrdSean but it makes me wonder.
Probably played it to the objectives would be my guess. The ad lance can't be everywhere at once. With that much MSU he could just throw down a Lictor a turn in front of them and possibly herd them where he wants them to go, or slow them down enough it wouldn't matter what they did anyway.
Wow I'm sorry - that's what you get when you post when you're not fully awake apparently. Because you separated them into different chunks my brain farted. I usually do that for each FOC slot win I list build.
Anyhow, no it's not unbound. It just has few Objective: Secured units. And yes, I was referring to the Mucolid's inability to contest or score objectives. I still think that my other points are valid though
Sinful Hero wrote: To be more specific, if you were allowed to run such a list, would you?
No. Because that would mean that there were players out there taking 18 Anhilation barges. Also no, because it violates the most important rule of the game (Fun). Neither playing, nor playing against such a list would be fun. It is the diversity of units that makes 40k enjoyable. Would unbound flyrant spam be our best list? Probably against most armies. But it isn't worth it.
SHUPPET wrote: So the bit I needed clarification on, is that eg 2 dice LD 8 it has a 63% chance to miss or not wound, and if it succesfully goes through it averages 1.41 wounds? I dunno it seems like a very awkward table when yours are usually structured real well. I still don think I fully get it.
I was mainly worried that this psychic power was feast or famine. To illustrate that I included the percent when it does nothing. I've seen people that do outcome distribution charts, but I don't know how to do that quickly, so I just do a little table of summary data.
So in that case, 63% of the time it will fail to wound. However the remaining 37% it will wound, and generally it will wound significantly (Average 3.8 wounds in that top 37%). When you average it out over all possible outcomes the average is just 1.41 wounds.
To try to sum it up a bit, while the mean is 1.41 wounds, there is an enormous variance of outcomes with the median outcome being 0 wounds. It is Babe Ruth. It either knocks the ball out of the park or strikes out. Very few results will actually be near that mean.
No that is nothing like Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth is arguably the greatest baseball player who ever lived and averaged 83 strikeouts a year while walking over 130 times a year. His career batting average is a .342 with an on base + slugging of 1.164.
If it was like Babe Ruth then it would kill a knight in one round of shooting something like 65% of the time with the other times almost glancing it out and failing to get 1 hull point off about 6% of the time.
felixcat wrote: I'm quite curious how OrdoSean managed to take out an Admantine Lance formation - he had 2 Flyrants with grubs and some rending Lictors ... no tentaclids or other support - well mawlocs ... kudos to OrdSean but it makes me wonder.
I would say he just MSUed it. With that many small units, he had Knights wasting an entire assault on single Lictors. As long as he kept good spacing, he should have been ok.
Also re: Wave Serpents. Lictors can kill a serpent in assault. A wave serpent can only kill one lictor a turn. So I imagine he just showed up and popped the serpents, and the serpent player didn't have enough shooting to knock down all of his MSU to do it.
I'm eager to hear from him, but after reviewing the mission packet, I'm sure he built his army for this tourney. The basically did away with kill points except as an option for a one point secondary. MSU was the way to win.
Those missions were quite a different beast from NOVA (used a previous version of the same mission packet). I don't know how many of you playtested the NOVA missions, but they were anything but balanced. They always gave you choices for the primary, and secondary, but in pretty much every case the army that was going to do well in option A of the primary was going to do just as well in option B. Also some of the secondaries were ridiculously easy to game, some armies could score all 3 on turn 1. Add to that the paperwork requirement, and they were some of the least favorite missions I have ever played. These missions are a giant improvement over those, and actually look like fun to play. Congrats to Neil on his revision of the mission packet. It really has come a long way. I hope that they continue to improve it, and fix the exploits available to MSU armies, and go a little further towards diversifying the primary choices so that different armies have more ways to win.
tag8833 wrote: It is Babe Ruth. It either knocks the ball out of the park or strikes out. Very few results will actually be near that mean.
No that is nothing like Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth is arguably the greatest baseball player who ever lived and averaged 83 strikeouts a year while walking over 130 times a year. His career batting average is a .342 with an on base + slugging of 1.164.
If it was like Babe Ruth then it would kill a knight in one round of shooting something like 65% of the time with the other times almost glancing it out and failing to get 1 hull point off about 6% of the time.
I have no idea what it is statistically similar to but it is not Babe Ruth.
Yep, you caught me. I'm a nerd that knows nothing about baseball. I based the comparison on a joke I once heard. So pick your own metaphor. Suffice to say, when it hits, it hits hard. But most of the time it misses.
Sinful Hero wrote: To be more specific, if you were allowed to run such a list, would you?
No. Because that would mean that there were players out there taking 18 Anhilation barges. Also no, because it violates the most important rule of the game (Fun). Neither playing, nor playing against such a list would be fun. It is the diversity of units that makes 40k enjoyable. Would unbound flyrant spam be our best list? Probably against most armies. But it isn't worth it.
What he said.
The game isn't just about clubbing your opponent. It's about having fun....for both parties.
If max Flyrants isn't any fun, what is the max you could field and still feel "clean"? Taking multiple detachments and Mucolids you could still fit seven in a list.
Wilson wrote: What's this about being able to put GMC's in pods? Is that legit or against the rules?
I want a Heirodule in a pod!
Why do you want one? You lose its guns for a turn and it moves fast enough as is. Plus it feels like a cheesy and non-thematic loophole at best. Even though it is RAW, so is having your Biovore blasts hit all levels of a ruin in a cylinder of doom. Not how I prefer to play the game
I really like the new Neurothrope rules. I'm glad they're cheap and that broods can be taken in larger numbers. Purely because it's how many I'll have when I get the kit, I'm thinking of running 4 with a Neuro upgrade, though I'm not sure whether to pod them or not. I guess it depends on how much Synapse I have throughout the rest of my list.
How does this list sound, bearing in mind I don't want to be too competitive, nor let my Hormagaunts sit on the shelf, unused (I'd drop them for more Devilgaunts in a pod if need be, or perhaps a Mawloc)
Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.
I might condense the Zoans into a single squad since you can now have 6 of them and that will allow you to cast Warp Lance more efficiently (although you'll be twice as sad if it gets denied)
The biggest weakness of this type of list is that it is technically unbound. Not that it's an illegal army for a tournament - GW has now allowed us to construct a list with no objective: secured units. Can you deal with drop pod marines owning every objective and having...I believe most tournament lists had like 18 OS units, either as drop pods or power armor marines. I'd also question why you need 5 Tyrannocytes. I see you'll be putting 2 groups of zoans in two of them, I suppose the gant squads in the other two, and the last one gets....a Venomthrope? I mean, yes it's all in your opponent's face but I don't see a whole lot of firepower in this list (shooting or close combat). What do you expect to happen when you get there? (Honest question that I'd like you to answe, to yourself if nothing else)
Your right about the fifth Tyrannocycte. When I was making the list I was considering to get more venomtropes or get the swarmlord for an extra +1 reserve bonus instead of the bastion.
Against a droppod list it all depends on who got the first turn and I can still use the 40 guants to keep those droppods 12 inch away from my bastion and flying hives. If my/this army gets the first turn then those "second wave" droppods are having a hard time finding a decent position to drop. But yes, it can really hurt but that also goes the other way around.
There is still a lot of decent firepower in this list but Tyranids always struggle with (heavy) armor. With two zoanthrope units it possible to get two neurothropes and I think that their psychic power bring sum nice anti-psyker/ Monsterous creature ability in combination with a few (possible "free") warp lance shots. Dont forget, the also got that extra psychic power. I was considering hive guard but I really like those skimmers to "jinx" to make sure the don't die because of warp lance shots.
4 single mucolite spores can really be annoying, because you have to have 4 units shooting them down and you waste a lot of shots against 15point models, but if the dont the can possibly explode with a S8 ap3 large blast that ignores cover.
To answer your question "what do you expect to happen if you get their" I would like to drop it in their face and even when the get an enormous beating I like to claim victory by letting those pods drift towards objectives and win the day. Will this work all the time? no.. But i do believe it got potential and stil a lot of damage output.
Sinful Hero wrote: If max Flyrants isn't any fun, what is the max you could field and still feel "clean"? Taking multiple detachments and Mucolids you could still fit seven in a list.
Having played with 4 on a couple occasions (see the bat rep a couple pages back) I don't think I would do more than 3. Four is pretty ridiculous and a lot of armies simply aren't equipped to deal with them. That's not fun for your opponent. In much the same way, I stopped playing Skyblight regularly because it was way too many FMC for my group to deal with. That's not to say that it's a cheesy list - it's the definition of counter-meta. Although Daemons might have people re-thinking that a bit.
That being said, when I played against the white scars bike list with four Flyrants, we both had a blast and he wants a re-match to see if he can optimize his list against a difficult matchup. So in all likelihood, I'll be playing that same list again this week. But it's definitely more of a "use by request" lost for me rather than a TAC list that I would use against anyone without warning. Ironically it is a pretty good TAC list also I think
Wilson wrote: What's this about being able to put GMC's in pods? Is that legit or against the rules?
I want a Heirodule in a pod!
Why do you want one? You lose its guns for a turn and it moves fast enough as is. Plus it feels like a cheesy and non-thematic loophole at best. Even though it is RAW, so is having your Biovore blasts hit all levels of a ruin in a cylinder of doom. Not how I prefer to play the game
Because Im reckless and dangerous...
Plus I like the idea of a Heirodule literally wearing a tyranocyte and asking " does it fit?" " oh I'm so fat, aren't i. :["
"Look at my fat thighs."
Sinful Hero wrote: To be more specific, if you were allowed to run such a list, would you?
No. Because that would mean that there were players out there taking 18 Anhilation barges. Also no, because it violates the most important rule of the game (Fun). Neither playing, nor playing against such a list would be fun. It is the diversity of units that makes 40k enjoyable. Would unbound flyrant spam be our best list? Probably against most armies. But it isn't worth it.
What he said.
The game isn't just about clubbing your opponent. It's about having fun....for both parties.
I mean think about it an Eldar player could bring 5 wraithgknights and 6 wave serpents...oh wait...never mind.
I am not crying about Eldar I just laughed when I thought about that as an unbound list and realized it is perfectly legal.
Sinful Hero wrote: To be more specific, if you were allowed to run such a list, would you?
No. Because that would mean that there were players out there taking 18 Anhilation barges. Also no, because it violates the most important rule of the game (Fun). Neither playing, nor playing against such a list would be fun. It is the diversity of units that makes 40k enjoyable. Would unbound flyrant spam be our best list? Probably against most armies. But it isn't worth it.
What he said.
The game isn't just about clubbing your opponent. It's about having fun....for both parties.
I mean think about it an Eldar player could bring 5 wraithgknights and 6 wave serpents...oh wait...never mind.
I am not crying about Eldar I just laughed when I thought about that as an unbound list and realized it is perfectly legal.
Sure it's legal but a large quantity of people don't play unbound because they prefere structured play. Primarily because those many players use tournement rules and restrictions that they are familiar with.
Take my own local gaming group for example; we only play with 1 cad and allies and don't allow double cad, unbound or self allies.
Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.
I might condense the Zoans into a single squad since you can now have 6 of them and that will allow you to cast Warp Lance more efficiently (although you'll be twice as sad if it gets denied)
The biggest weakness of this type of list is that it is technically unbound. Not that it's an illegal army for a tournament - GW has now allowed us to construct a list with no objective: secured units. Can you deal with drop pod marines owning every objective and having...I believe most tournament lists had like 18 OS units, either as drop pods or power armor marines. I'd also question why you need 5 Tyrannocytes. I see you'll be putting 2 groups of zoans in two of them, I suppose the gant squads in the other two, and the last one gets....a Venomthrope? I mean, yes it's all in your opponent's face but I don't see a whole lot of firepower in this list (shooting or close combat). What do you expect to happen when you get there? (Honest question that I'd like you to answe, to yourself if nothing else)
Your right about the fifth Tyrannocycte. When I was making the list I was considering to get more venomtropes or get the swarmlord for an extra +1 reserve bonus instead of the bastion.
Against a droppod list it all depends on who got the first turn and I can still use the 40 guants to keep those droppods 12 inch away from my bastion and flying hives. If my/this army gets the first turn then those "second wave" droppods are having a hard time finding a decent position to drop. But yes, it can really hurt but that also goes the other way around.
There is still a lot of decent firepower in this list but Tyranids always struggle with (heavy) armor. With two zoanthrope units it possible to get two neurothropes and I think that their psychic power bring sum nice anti-psyker/ Monsterous creature ability in combination with a few (possible "free") warp lance shots. Dont forget, the also got that extra psychic power. I was considering hive guard but I really like those skimmers to "jinx" to make sure the don't die because of warp lance shots.
4 single mucolite spores can really be annoying, because you have to have 4 units shooting them down and you waste a lot of shots against 15point models, but if the dont the can possibly explode with a S8 ap3 large blast that ignores cover.
To answer your question "what do you expect to happen if you get their" I would like to drop it in their face and even when the get an enormous beating I like to claim victory by letting those pods drift towards objectives and win the day. Will this work all the time? no.. But i do believe it got potential and stil a lot of damage output.
What you're basically advocating is what jy2 calls "positional dominance", meaning you'll win an objectives game if you control the movement phase. This is true. However, I would be careful before I put all my anti-tank eggs in the Zoanthrope's basket. They can be tied up in combat quite easily and even if you cast with 5 dice, you have an 81% chance of successfully manifesting the power. Your opponent then has a 25% chance to deny on 6 dice (rolling a 3 for the d6 and getting 3 natively). That's going to mean that you fail to hit with that power 4/10 times. Not my idea of a reliable alpha strike. I might grab a Dakkafex, who can pump a ton of shots into a tank's rear armor, then assault the next turn and reliably kill whatever tank he hits. You're also going to struggle against high toughness creatures (Eldar wraithknights, talos pain engines, etc) possibly worth bringing some poison troops? Basically your zoans have a huge amount of pressure to do a lot of work and if they don't, your army is going to have a tough time in certain matchups
I think that it is too much potatoes (infiltrating units) and not enough meat (actual, offensive units). Good luck trying to infiltrate all those units in any type of deployment that makes sense.
Hey Sean,
If you read this, we'd love to hear about your matchups at the 11th Company GT. Congrats, man!
This seriously warms my heart, I just purchased two Brool Lords. And I have been thinking that Stealers can return to the table (because of MTO, too many other targets for the Stealers to get focused on )
SHUPPET wrote: So the bit I needed clarification on, is that eg 2 dice LD 8 it has a 63% chance to miss or not wound, and if it succesfully goes through it averages 1.41 wounds? I dunno it seems like a very awkward table when yours are usually structured real well. I still don think I fully get it.
I was mainly worried that this psychic power was feast or famine. To illustrate that I included the percent when it does nothing. I've seen people that do outcome distribution charts, but I don't know how to do that quickly, so I just do a little table of summary data.
So in that case, 63% of the time it will fail to wound. However the remaining 37% it will wound, and generally it will wound significantly (Average 3.8 wounds in that top 37%). When you average it out over all possible outcomes the average is just 1.41 wounds.
To try to sum it up a bit, while the mean is 1.41 wounds, there is an enormous variance of outcomes with the median outcome being 0 wounds. It is Babe Ruth. It either knocks the ball out of the park or strikes out. Very few results will actually be near that mean.
No that is nothing like Babe Ruth. Babe Ruth is arguably the greatest baseball player who ever lived and averaged 83 strikeouts a year while walking over 130 times a year. His career batting average is a .342 with an on base + slugging of 1.164.
If it was like Babe Ruth then it would kill a knight in one round of shooting something like 65% of the time with the other times almost glancing it out and failing to get 1 hull point off about 6% of the time.
I have no idea what it is statistically similar to but it is not Babe Ruth.
Reggie? (Mr. October, hit lots of homeruns, struck out like crazy. Had his own candy bar...just like the Babe )
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldercaveman wrote: If Skyblight is the only way of getting the 3rd Flyrant into your list, is it worth it, just for that?
Not to me. But that is style as much as substance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sinful Hero wrote: If max Flyrants isn't any fun, what is the max you could field and still feel "clean"? Taking multiple detachments and Mucolids you could still fit seven in a list.
I have no objections to multiple CAD so I guess four, though I suspect the real answer is 3.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Shadow wrote: I really like the new Neurothrope rules. I'm glad they're cheap and that broods can be taken in larger numbers. Purely because it's how many I'll have when I get the kit, I'm thinking of running 4 with a Neuro upgrade, though I'm not sure whether to pod them or not. I guess it depends on how much Synapse I have throughout the rest of my list.
How does this list sound, bearing in mind I don't want to be too competitive, nor let my Hormagaunts sit on the shelf, unused (I'd drop them for more Devilgaunts in a pod if need be, or perhaps a Mawloc)
It doesn't look "bad", but puta Thorax Hive on the Tervigon. Also I would Outflank the Tervign, so I am putting Synapse into the backfield. What is the second Pod for? The Zoey+ Brood? (that would put Synapse into the backfield) In that case, two Broods of Devilgaunts should do just fine back there.
I have only played 'Nids since the new Codex came out, so I built my collection and started playing well later than the supposed "Golden Age". That means I haven't felt the particular weaknesses of the Codex, having never lived in an age of Drop-Pod (Mycetic Spores), etc...
That all said, I began my love affair with 'Nids by buying Space Hulk as a younger man, and the first I owned/painted were a set of Space Hulk 3rd Ed Stealers/Broodlord.
To date, they have been the only "turds" I own in terms of actually playing 40k as 'Nids.
Is the Tyrannocyst Spore-thing a way to rehabilitate these guys? I would LOVE for Genestealers to be awesome, but is loading a pod to the gills with these guys and a Broodlord a decent idea, or are they just gonna get shot to ribbons before they can finally assault?
There are certainly those who feel like Tyrrannocytes have reinvigorated genestealers. I'm not seeing it. They need support, so putting them in a Tyrannocyte isn't the way to go. However, one way in which they have gotten better is if you plan to outflank them. You can do so on the same turn that you bring in other threats via a Tyrannocyte. This may keep them from being so much of a focus of enemy fire on the turn they arrive.
I doubt we will see them in many top tier lists (I say with a great sense of Irony, because they were in the list that just won a GT). But outflanking them doesn't have to be a complete waste of points any more.
Shame... For how squishy they are, and at their cost, I just want to see Genestealers as absolute assault, murder-machines, but their numbers end up getting depleted sooo easily that they lose that potential incredibly quickly, in my experience.
Hey Yall, thanks for all the love. With the removal of Vect I needed a break from dark eldar so I broke out my tyranid models and decided to give it a whirl. It was a great joy to play and win with my Bugs.
First I want to answer the questions on wave serpents and Adamantine Lance that seem to be heavy on here. I didnt play against either at the tournament. But practiced heavily against waveserpents and was not worried about them in the slightest... in fact was hoping to play them as I was most confident in that matchup versus some others. And also had some specific plans for the lance that I thought I was on a collision to face in the last round but it was knocked out, so sadly was not able to implement those strategies.
What I did face:
Round one: Chaos Space Marines: Abbadon, 8 khorne bezerkers in a landraider, 2x 10 chaos marines in rhinos, 7 plague marines in a rhino, 2 nurgle oblits, 3 nurgle oblits.
Round 2: Clan Rauuken: Chapter master on bike with shield, 5 bikes with grav and multimelta, 10 marines in pod melta, 10 marines in rhino plasma, 5 scouts in storm, 5 scouts in storm, thunderfire, predator 3 lascannons, stalker? 4 shots str 7 skyfire, Imperial knight ally
Round 4: Space wolve/IG: 2 rune priests, 2 Iron priests on wolves, 2 5 man grey hunters in pods with melta, 3 empty pods, company command with 4 melta plasma pistol, priest, 2 psykers, platoon command with flamers, 3 platoons with lascannons in 3 chimeras, special weapons team with 3 melta flamer plasma pistol, 50 consripts, squad of 2 wyvrens.
Round 5: White Scars/Space wolves detachment thingy: Khan, 5 bike squads some melta some grav, scout bikers, 2 storm talons, 2 wolf guard battle leaders on thunder wolves, 2 iron priests on wolves, 2 servitors
Round 6: Dark Eldar: Urien and 2 4 man grotesques in raiders from the coven book, Succubus, 2 units of trueborn with 4 blasters in venoms, 4 units of warriors with blaster and haywire sergeant in venoms, 2 Ravagers
OrdoSean wrote: Hey Yall, thanks for all the love. With the removal of Vect I needed a break from dark eldar so I broke out my tyranid models and decided to give it a whirl. It was a great joy to play and win with my Bugs.
First I want to answer the questions on wave serpents and Adamantine Lance that seem to be heavy on here. I didnt play against either at the tournament. But practiced heavily against waveserpents and was not worried about them in the slightest... in fact was hoping to play them as I was most confident in that matchup versus some others. And also had some specific plans for the lance that I thought I was on a collision to face in the last round but it was knocked out, so sadly was not able to implement those strategies.
What I did face:
Round one: Chaos Space Marines: Abbadon, 8 khorne bezerkers in a landraider, 2x 10 chaos marines in rhinos, 7 plague marines in a rhino, 2 nurgle oblits, 3 nurgle oblits.
Round 2: Clan Rauuken: Chapter master on bike with shield, 5 bikes with grav and multimelta, 10 marines in pod melta, 10 marines in rhino plasma, 5 scouts in storm, 5 scouts in storm, thunderfire, predator 3 lascannons, stalker? 4 shots str 7 skyfire, Imperial knight ally
Round 4: Space wolve/IG: 2 rune priests, 2 Iron priests on wolves, 2 5 man grey hunters in pods with melta, 3 empty pods, company command with 4 melta plasma pistol, priest, 2 psykers, platoon command with flamers, 3 platoons with lascannons in 3 chimeras, special weapons team with 3 melta flamer plasma pistol, 50 consripts, squad of 2 wyvrens.
Round 5: White Scars/Space wolves detachment thingy: Khan, 5 bike squads some melta some grav, scout bikers, 2 storm talons, 2 wolf guard battle leaders on thunder wolves, 2 iron priests on wolves, 2 servitors
Round 6: Dark Eldar: Urien and 2 4 man grotesques in raiders from the coven book, Succubus, 2 units of trueborn with 4 blasters in venoms, 4 units of warriors with blaster and haywire sergeant in venoms, 2 Ravagers
and you went 5-1? nice man. I'm so impressed and have much respect. No idea how you managed to beat that tau army. care to share?
Haha no. I think it was his scatter dice. I only got one of 3 mawlocs in turn 2 even with comms relay(he had the -1 reserve warlord trait) and it was a pretty target rich environment so even a large scatter nailed me 2 broadsides the ethereal and some drones. And after that I didnt need a scatter dice when the others came in.
Hey guys, been out of the game for a little while (still attempting to paint my 100+ models of gants, MCs, and FMCs... ugh), and with the news of the new models, I got really excited and wanted to take a peek into this thread again. I'm seeing people are taking ripper swarms now with 7th edition? What's the logic behind this? What does a standard tournament list look like now (aside from the one that just won the GT, congrats Sean)?
Also, with the new Tyrannocites, do people think that a Tyrannofex or an Exocrine are worth their points now, with them being able to deep strike in and blow things up efficiently?
I tabled the tau player in like 5 or 6 turns. Mawlocs are pretty nasty.
Not trying to be mean or anything but im truly just curious.
Any tournamant around me the way people play and the lists they take, with all the ignore cover and high mobility I can tsee this working at all.
If a Eldar player (This is my area) sees a MSU and something like a Lictor drops/comes close (or 2 or 3 of them) they will get the Guardians out of the vehicle SJS and move the vehicles away 6-12". With Ignore cover shields and Pseudo Rending units (10 units total at this point) not counting the Night Spinners or other units.
I can Understand wins against Tau or IG with this list easily.
Its all made for second turn "in your face" dropping. Its a lot to handle for the enemy because those tyrannocites start to drift towards objectives and even when most of the army gets destroyed its still hard to beat it.
I might condense the Zoans into a single squad since you can now have 6 of them and that will allow you to cast Warp Lance more efficiently (although you'll be twice as sad if it gets denied)
The biggest weakness of this type of list is that it is technically unbound. Not that it's an illegal army for a tournament - GW has now allowed us to construct a list with no objective: secured units. Can you deal with drop pod marines owning every objective and having...I believe most tournament lists had like 18 OS units, either as drop pods or power armor marines. I'd also question why you need 5 Tyrannocytes. I see you'll be putting 2 groups of zoans in two of them, I suppose the gant squads in the other two, and the last one gets....a Venomthrope? I mean, yes it's all in your opponent's face but I don't see a whole lot of firepower in this list (shooting or close combat). What do you expect to happen when you get there? (Honest question that I'd like you to answe, to yourself if nothing else)
Your right about the fifth Tyrannocycte. When I was making the list I was considering to get more venomtropes or get the swarmlord for an extra +1 reserve bonus instead of the bastion.
Against a droppod list it all depends on who got the first turn and I can still use the 40 guants to keep those droppods 12 inch away from my bastion and flying hives. If my/this army gets the first turn then those "second wave" droppods are having a hard time finding a decent position to drop. But yes, it can really hurt but that also goes the other way around.
There is still a lot of decent firepower in this list but Tyranids always struggle with (heavy) armor. With two zoanthrope units it possible to get two neurothropes and I think that their psychic power bring sum nice anti-psyker/ Monsterous creature ability in combination with a few (possible "free") warp lance shots. Dont forget, the also got that extra psychic power. I was considering hive guard but I really like those skimmers to "jinx" to make sure the don't die because of warp lance shots.
4 single mucolite spores can really be annoying, because you have to have 4 units shooting them down and you waste a lot of shots against 15point models, but if the dont the can possibly explode with a S8 ap3 large blast that ignores cover.
To answer your question "what do you expect to happen if you get their" I would like to drop it in their face and even when the get an enormous beating I like to claim victory by letting those pods drift towards objectives and win the day. Will this work all the time? no.. But i do believe it got potential and stil a lot of damage output.
What you're basically advocating is what jy2 calls "positional dominance", meaning you'll win an objectives game if you control the movement phase. This is true. However, I would be careful before I put all my anti-tank eggs in the Zoanthrope's basket. They can be tied up in combat quite easily and even if you cast with 5 dice, you have an 81% chance of successfully manifesting the power. Your opponent then has a 25% chance to deny on 6 dice (rolling a 3 for the d6 and getting 3 natively). That's going to mean that you fail to hit with that power 4/10 times. Not my idea of a reliable alpha strike. I might grab a Dakkafex, who can pump a ton of shots into a tank's rear armor, then assault the next turn and reliably kill whatever tank he hits. You're also going to struggle against high toughness creatures (Eldar wraithknights, talos pain engines, etc) possibly worth bringing some poison troops? Basically your zoans have a huge amount of pressure to do a lot of work and if they don't, your army is going to have a tough time in certain matchups
The zoanthropes are not the only anti-tank on the field. There are already two hive tyrants with devourers and against armor 12 or more those devourers don't really go a lot of impact. Its also not that easy to have a clear shot at the back armor. If it is, then those spore-pods (rather use this name..8) can also use their deathspitters to take down hull-points from armor 10 or 11. Yes, a carnifex can be a treat but also be killed fairly easily. Against those monstrous creatures theirs still two neurothropes and 4/5 Spore pods with a lot of deathspitters. also possible for those zoanthropes and hive tyrants to get psychic scream.
But your right about the zoanthropes output. It can be devastating but most times disappointing. Maybe iam going to switch one zoanthrope unit for a carnifex. need to playtest this.
Not trying to be mean or anything but im truly just curious.
Any tournamant around me the way people play and the lists they take, with all the ignore cover and high mobility I can tsee this working at all.
If a Eldar player (This is my area) sees a MSU and something like a Lictor drops/comes close (or 2 or 3 of them) they will get the Guardians out of the vehicle SJS and move the vehicles away 6-12". With Ignore cover shields and Pseudo Rending units (10 units total at this point) not counting the Night Spinners or other units.
I can Understand wins against Tau or IG with this list easily.
Just wondering about how you handle that.
Well the tau list had lots of ability to ignore cover too. With the buffmander and marker lights, as well as smart missiles. Its actually probably much worse then eldar honestly.
Once a wave serpent jinks its damage output isnt really that high, and if a nightspinner jinks it has no damage output. And 10 guardians I dont think kill a lictor on average without some psychic help.
Not trying to be mean or anything but im truly just curious.
Any tournamant around me the way people play and the lists they take, with all the ignore cover and high mobility I can tsee this working at all.
If a Eldar player (This is my area) sees a MSU and something like a Lictor drops/comes close (or 2 or 3 of them) they will get the Guardians out of the vehicle SJS and move the vehicles away 6-12". With Ignore cover shields and Pseudo Rending units (10 units total at this point) not counting the Night Spinners or other units.
I can Understand wins against Tau or IG with this list easily.
Just wondering about how you handle that.
Well the tau list had lots of ability to ignore cover too. With the buffmander and marker lights, as well as smart missiles. Its actually probably much worse then eldar honestly.
Once a wave serpent jinks its damage output isnt really that high, and if a nightspinner jinks it has no damage output. And 10 guardians I dont think kill a lictor on average without some psychic help.
But with 3 Mawlocs just 2 good hits and you can remove all of Marker Lights and even some Broadsides. Then you have the Flyrants helping with that on turn 2 (when the Mawlocs come in).
Not trying to be mean or anything but im truly just curious.
Any tournamant around me the way people play and the lists they take, with all the ignore cover and high mobility I can tsee this working at all.
If a Eldar player (This is my area) sees a MSU and something like a Lictor drops/comes close (or 2 or 3 of them) they will get the Guardians out of the vehicle SJS and move the vehicles away 6-12". With Ignore cover shields and Pseudo Rending units (10 units total at this point) not counting the Night Spinners or other units.
I can Understand wins against Tau or IG with this list easily.
I play against Eldar with confidence as a bug player...and against bugs with indifference as an Eldar player.
What eldar Lists you playing against? B.c its the Opposite for me, I can win against Tau just fine....
The Owner of the store has both Eldar and Nids, (So do I) he is an amazing players and would win tournaments if he want, me him and a few other players tried Tournament lists over an over again and it seems there was nothing nids could do to win against a Eldar player.
Im talking about 5+ Wave Serpents, 1-2 Night Spinners, WraithKnight and some other filler unit like Swooping Hawks.
I will be talking to my local and we will be testing somethings, but with 6-12" move, TL everyday, Ingore cover S7 (KILLS Flyants easily) and able to get dudes out and JSJ I cant understand.
Not trying to be mean or anything but im truly just curious.
Any tournamant around me the way people play and the lists they take, with all the ignore cover and high mobility I can tsee this working at all.
If a Eldar player (This is my area) sees a MSU and something like a Lictor drops/comes close (or 2 or 3 of them) they will get the Guardians out of the vehicle SJS and move the vehicles away 6-12". With Ignore cover shields and Pseudo Rending units (10 units total at this point) not counting the Night Spinners or other units.
I can Understand wins against Tau or IG with this list easily.
Just wondering about how you handle that.
Well the tau list had lots of ability to ignore cover too. With the buffmander and marker lights, as well as smart missiles. Its actually probably much worse then eldar honestly.
Once a wave serpent jinks its damage output isnt really that high, and if a nightspinner jinks it has no damage output. And 10 guardians I dont think kill a lictor on average without some psychic help.
But with 3 Mawlocs just 2 good hits and you can remove all of Marker Lights and even some Broadsides. Then you have the Flyrants helping with that on turn 2 (when the Mawlocs come in).
Not trying to be mean or anything but im truly just curious.
Any tournamant around me the way people play and the lists they take, with all the ignore cover and high mobility I can tsee this working at all.
If a Eldar player (This is my area) sees a MSU and something like a Lictor drops/comes close (or 2 or 3 of them) they will get the Guardians out of the vehicle SJS and move the vehicles away 6-12". With Ignore cover shields and Pseudo Rending units (10 units total at this point) not counting the Night Spinners or other units.
I can Understand wins against Tau or IG with this list easily.
Just wondering about how you handle that.
Well the tau list had lots of ability to ignore cover too. With the buffmander and marker lights, as well as smart missiles. Its actually probably much worse then eldar honestly.
Once a wave serpent jinks its damage output isnt really that high, and if a nightspinner jinks it has no damage output. And 10 guardians I dont think kill a lictor on average without some psychic help.
But with 3 Mawlocs just 2 good hits and you can remove all of Marker Lights and even some Broadsides. Then you have the Flyrants helping with that on turn 2 (when the Mawlocs come in).
I guess your Magical.
Or experienced. No matchup is autowin or lose.
theres no doubt that that guy is experienced if he won with a list like that but there is such a thing as an auto lose/win match up. thats ridiculous saying that.
Not trying to be mean or anything but im truly just curious.
Any tournamant around me the way people play and the lists they take, with all the ignore cover and high mobility I can tsee this working at all.
If a Eldar player (This is my area) sees a MSU and something like a Lictor drops/comes close (or 2 or 3 of them) they will get the Guardians out of the vehicle SJS and move the vehicles away 6-12". With Ignore cover shields and Pseudo Rending units (10 units total at this point) not counting the Night Spinners or other units.
I can Understand wins against Tau or IG with this list easily.
Just wondering about how you handle that.
Well the tau list had lots of ability to ignore cover too. With the buffmander and marker lights, as well as smart missiles. Its actually probably much worse then eldar honestly.
Once a wave serpent jinks its damage output isnt really that high, and if a nightspinner jinks it has no damage output. And 10 guardians I dont think kill a lictor on average without some psychic help.
But with 3 Mawlocs just 2 good hits and you can remove all of Marker Lights and even some Broadsides. Then you have the Flyrants helping with that on turn 2 (when the Mawlocs come in).
I guess your Magical.
Or experienced. No matchup is autowin or lose.
Im not saying that, Im saying against 2 equal players that know the tricks of each others army how do you compete against something with all the answers to yours?
Im talking about 5+ Wave Serpents, 1-2 Night Spinners, WraithKnight and some other filler unit like Swooping Hawks.
I will be talking to my local and we will be testing somethings, but with 6-12" move, TL everyday, Ingore cover S7 (KILLS Flyants easily) and able to get dudes out and JSJ I cant understand.
YMMV. But thats the kind of list Im talking about too. Its not as hard as you might think. But you need to look at the whole picture rather then focusing on small parts I think. Not that its an auto win or anything, not the kind of thing any of us are looking for in this game, but the eldar player will be hard pressed and have to out play me with that list.
Ignores cover from the serpents doesnt really matter to the flyrants... they have 3+ armor. A Serpent only does like 2-3 wounds to a flyrant. Thats before saves and if they roll a 5 on the shield. So would take 4+ serpents to kill a flyrant in one turn with confidence. And if you have feel no pain then need another serpent. Now dice can run hot or cold but thats still a pretty good odds for the tyrant.
theres no doubt that that guy is experienced if he won with a list like that but there is such a thing as an auto lose/win match up. thats ridiculous saying that.
e.g
5 knights Vs. 460 Gaunts.
As long as in your example you are saying the gaunts win... because if you split those into units of 10 im not sure how the knight player kills them all in 6 turns, and since they are objective secured you win on objectives.
@Wilson
The gaunts may never hurt the Knights, but those knights aren't moving anywhere either.
Sorry I didn't specify- when two competitive lists play a game, it's never autolose or win. I assumed that was a given.
@Amishprn86
Stay a step ahead. If you know what they'll do to counter your army, play around it. If you deepstrike a lictor or something next to a Waveserpent and you know they'll move away and JsJ the guardians, make them move in a direction beneficial to you and detrimental to them. Or place enough lictors around it that it can't move or disembark out the hatches.
s7 hurts Flyrants not Ignore Cover, Ignore cover hurts Lictors... Im not stupid.
Show me a bat report of you doing well against Eldar then i will believe, from the 8-9 Nid players I know, all have WAY MORE trouble with Eldar than Tau.
@OrdoSean
Knight vs gants
Stomp can carry over to other units, get them in combat and stomp...
1 Shot from 5 Knights will kill 5 untis (if 10man)
1 Melee could kill 1.5 units
Amishprn86 wrote: s7 hurts Flyrants not Ignore Cover, Ignore cover hurts Lictors... Im not stupid.
Show me a bat report of you doing well against Eldar then i will believe, from the 8-9 Nid players I know, all have WAY MORE trouble with Eldar than Tau.
Wounding on three's, and then having to get through a 3+ save is the downfall of Flyrants?
Amishprn86 wrote: s7 hurts Flyrants not Ignore Cover, Ignore cover hurts Lictors... Im not stupid.
Show me a bat report of you doing well against Eldar then i will believe, from the 8-9 Nid players I know, all have WAY MORE trouble with Eldar than Tau.
Wounding on three's, and then having to get through a 3+ save is the downfall of Flyrants?
If the eldar player focused 2-3 units on it turn 1 (your not flying at this points if you started on the table) then yes it can, Once it is Flying then thats different it will be very hard, but its that 1st turn you have to worry about, 60" D6+1 S7 is not something to joke about on 5-6 units.
EDIT: Not counting and Distort weapons from the Wraithknight or if any others in the army. Like Heavy Wraith Cannons
tag8833 wrote: There are certainly those who feel like Tyrrannocytes have reinvigorated genestealers. I'm not seeing it. They need support, so putting them in a Tyrannocyte isn't the way to go. However, one way in which they have gotten better is if you plan to outflank them. You can do so on the same turn that you bring in other threats via a Tyrannocyte. This may keep them from being so much of a focus of enemy fire on the turn they arrive.
I doubt we will see them in many top tier lists (I say with a great sense of Irony, because they were in the list that just won a GT). But outflanking them doesn't have to be a complete waste of points any more.
As someone who thinks Stealers got better, I gotta say I don't think that GT win means anything.There is no way it makes them more competitive than other choices.
I do think however it says something about the cost-effectiveness of Mawlocs, they are the most effecient unit as far as points go in the dex and there isn't many situations where they aren't awesome.
xttz wrote: Tomorrow night I have a game arranged at my club against a guy wanting to try out his new Chaos Warhound. He has specifically asked for my "most overpowered list" to try it against, so I'm looking for ideas. He normally plays Nurgle/Khorne-heavy CSM+daemons, and we're playing 2k pts. I expect he'll run it as a Nurgle Warhound using the rules in IA13, leaving ~1200pts to fill.
The question is what I run against him. While the obvious choice is Skyblight, I don't own any Crones or Harpies and don't really like the idea of proxying them (I have enough models I rarely get to use). What I do have to pick from is:
...
...
I just got home from this game, and the result is a very resounding crushing Tyranid victory~
My opponent was happy for me to use the new rules from WD (including the upcoming one), so for my list I went with:
Harridan, Flyrant, Malanthrope, vanilla gaunts, devilguants in a pod, 3 shockcannon hive guard in a pod, and 6 zoans in a pod.
The opposing army consisted of:
Warhound with dual turbo-lasers, a large screen of cultists, 10 marines, Sicarian, Predator, Forgefiend and a Storm Eagle.
My supporting psychic power rolls were mediocre, but the Battle-Forged re-roll got me Strategic Genius, letting me re-roll reserves which was fantastic for this list.
I got first turn, and only moved the Flyrant and Harridan into the centre of the field while the Malanthrope and gaunts stopped back on an objective. The Flyrant was able to strip both shields off the Titan, allowing the Harridan to follow up by knocking off 2 hull points. On his turn he responded by... killing one termagant with the titan, as most were out of LoS and it couldn't shoot the flyers. His supporting army didn't fare much better, failing to land an unsaved wound on either creature sitting right in front of them.
Now comes turn two, and I roll for reserves. Devilgaunts on, Hive Guard on, Zoanthropes... roll a 1. But thanks to the warlord trait that is quickly fixed, and all 3 pods land around his army while my flyers advance nearby. I roll a decent amount of warp charge, and throw 6 dice into Warp Blast aimed squarely at the Titan. It succeeds, but four for the six shots miss. The fifth takes out a newly repaired void shield, while the final hit lands perfectly, scoring Explodes and knocking off 3 HP.
The Hive Guard quickly follow up with Haywire attacks, stripping a further 3HP with ease. With a single hullpoint remaining the Harridan fires wildly from point blank range. Despite somehow missing most of its shots, one glance does get through. BOOM - Titan down. The explosion rips through the Cultist screen, and damages all three Chaos vehicles nearby. The Flyrant finishes off the Forgefiend with a volley of glancing hits, and the devilguants further pour salt into the wound by wiping out the marines in a single volley, and taking their objective.
With a smoking crater where his army used to be, all my opponent can do is damage control. The Storm Eagle arrives and along with the surviving vehicles, pour all of their fire into the Zoanthropes in revenge. After a string of solid warp field saves only two of them drop to the ground. The remaining cultists desperately try to tie up the Hive Guard in combat, inflicting a wound but losing one of their number in return.
Turn 3 was simply a case of cleaning up. The Harridan really showed what you can do with S10 skyfire, sending the Storm Eagle tumbling off the table. The Flyrant finishes off the Predator from behind, and the Zoans repeat their previous performance to only land a single penetrating hit on the Sicarian. However one hit was enough to leave it a smoking wreck. This time the Hive Guard inflict enough damage to cause the cultists to flee, and they leave the board with nothing but a dead Princeps for the Malanthrope to consume...
Amishprn86 wrote: s7 hurts Flyrants not Ignore Cover, Ignore cover hurts Lictors... Im not stupid.
Show me a bat report of you doing well against Eldar then i will believe, from the 8-9 Nid players I know, all have WAY MORE trouble with Eldar than Tau.
@OrdoSean
Knight vs gants
Stomp can carry over to other units, get them in combat and stomp...
1 Shot from 5 Knights will kill 5 untis (if 10man)
1 Melee could kill 1.5 units
do that for 3 turns thats 30 units easily killed.
Amish your math is a little off. The point is that a knight will have a lot of trouble making its points back if it is forced to shoot at really tiny and cheap squads. The game went 5 turns and your knight killed 5 40 point squads? I'm cool with that. Lictors in particular are nasty against Knights for a couple of reasons:
1) Knights do not do well against cover saves, especially if it's a small unit. Wow that melta can on can instant kill me? I think I'll just go to ground for a sweet cover save
2) lictors come in wherever they want. This means that you can box the Knights in while making charge distances quite difficult, or you can get in its face and stop it from moving entirely. Odd, but true
I'm not saying that lictors are going to be favored against an adlance list - just that I can see how it's a much closer game than anyone would have thought not too long ago
xttz wrote: Tomorrow night I have a game arranged at my club against a guy wanting to try out his new Chaos Warhound. He has specifically asked for my "most overpowered list" to try it against, so I'm looking for ideas. He normally plays Nurgle/Khorne-heavy CSM+daemons, and we're playing 2k pts. I expect he'll run it as a Nurgle Warhound using the rules in IA13, leaving ~1200pts to fill.
The question is what I run against him. While the obvious choice is Skyblight, I don't own any Crones or Harpies and don't really like the idea of proxying them (I have enough models I rarely get to use). What I do have to pick from is:
...
...
I just got home from this game, and the result is a very resounding crushing Tyranid victory~
My opponent was happy for me to use the new rules from WD (including the upcoming one), so for my list I went with:
Harridan, Flyrant, Malanthrope, vanilla gaunts, devilguants in a pod, 3 shockcannon hive guard in a pod, and 6 zoans in a pod.
The opposing army consisted of:
Warhound with dual turbo-lasers, a large screen of cultists, 10 marines, Sicarian, Predator, Forgefiend and a Storm Eagle.
My supporting psychic power rolls were mediocre, but the Battle-Forged re-roll got me Strategic Genius, letting me re-roll reserves which was fantastic for this list.
I got first turn, and only moved the Flyrant and Harridan into the centre of the field while the Malanthrope and gaunts stopped back on an objective. The Flyrant was able to strip both shields off the Titan, allowing the Harridan to follow up by knocking off 2 hull points. On his turn he responded by... killing one termagant with the titan, as most were out of LoS and it couldn't shoot the flyers. His supporting army didn't fare much better, failing to land an unsaved wound on either creature sitting right in front of them.
Now comes turn two, and I roll for reserves. Devilgaunts on, Hive Guard on, Zoanthropes... roll a 1. But thanks to the warlord trait that is quickly fixed, and all 3 pods land around his army while my flyers advance nearby. I roll a decent amount of warp charge, and throw 6 dice into Warp Blast aimed squarely at the Titan. It succeeds, but four for the six shots miss. The fifth takes out a newly repaired void shield, while the final hit lands perfectly, scoring Explodes and knocking off 3 HP.
The Hive Guard quickly follow up with Haywire attacks, stripping a further 3HP with ease. With a single hullpoint remaining the Harridan fires wildly from point blank range. Despite somehow missing most of its shots, one glance does get through. BOOM - Titan down. The explosion rips through the Cultist screen, and damages all three Chaos vehicles nearby. The Flyrant finishes off the Forgefiend with a volley of glancing hits, and the devilguants further pour salt into the wound by wiping out the marines in a single volley, and taking their objective.
With a smoking crater where his army used to be, all my opponent can do is damage control. The Storm Eagle arrives and along with the surviving vehicles, pour all of their fire into the Zoanthropes in revenge. After a string of solid warp field saves only two of them drop to the ground. The remaining cultists desperately try to tie up the Hive Guard in combat, inflicting a wound but losing one of their number in return.
Turn 3 was simply a case of cleaning up. The Harridan really showed what you can do with S10 skyfire, sending the Storm Eagle tumbling off the table. The Flyrant finishes off the Predator from behind, and the Zoans repeat their previous performance to only land a single penetrating hit on the Sicarian. However one hit was enough to leave it a smoking wreck. This time the Hive Guard inflict enough damage to cause the cultists to flee, and they leave the board with nothing but a dead Princeps for the Malanthrope to consume...
Congrats on the win! Glad to hear that the Zoans did some work. And yeah, the best thing against big baddies like a warhound are to simply get the drop on it. Sounds like a great time to be a Nid player
I tabled the tau player in like 5 or 6 turns. Mawlocs are pretty nasty.
Did using the Lictors to guide the Mawlocs come into play a lot, or were they not typically close enough (this applies for any games you played)
Also, I know I'm not alone in saying that we would love to hear more details about your wins - I think I have a Lictor I can send you if you do bat reps for each match - clearly you need more
I have only played 'Nids since the new Codex came out, so I built my collection and started playing well later than the supposed "Golden Age". That means I haven't felt the particular weaknesses of the Codex, having never lived in an age of Drop-Pod (Mycetic Spores), etc...
That all said, I began my love affair with 'Nids by buying Space Hulk as a younger man, and the first I owned/painted were a set of Space Hulk 3rd Ed Stealers/Broodlord.
To date, they have been the only "turds" I own in terms of actually playing 40k as 'Nids.
Is the Tyrannocyst Spore-thing a way to rehabilitate these guys? I would LOVE for Genestealers to be awesome, but is loading a pod to the gills with these guys and a Broodlord a decent idea, or are they just gonna get shot to ribbons before they can finally assault?
Maybe so... But not exactly. I think we might be able to use Stealers if we pack a pod or two with Something Else. The secret seems (to me) to provide too many prioritys, so the foe can make mistakes. If that mistake is to ignore the Stealers, then they can charge home. It still is painful to take overwatch (The Horror helps, or anything else that can pin) but the reason they are unusable is they get whitled down during the advance, and they are too expensive to function as bullet magnets.
The only success I've had is screening them with Hormagaunts. (odd but functional) or getting a "pin". (mostly from Strangle Cannons form a Warrior Brood) But it's possible that combining Infiltrate, Outflank, and Deep Strike will generate enough pressure.
I tabled the tau player in like 5 or 6 turns. Mawlocs are pretty nasty.
Well done. 6-0 against that field is no joke. Love to hear what happens when a good player plays an unconventional tyranid list and keeps his eye on the prize.
No Synapse for 420 (or what ever he said, thats alittle to many thats like 3k points of gants). Once you kill a few they will take a test, 1/2 the ones taking tests will fail, you get in melee, Kill them and then Stomp, if the Knight player is able to get 2 or 3 stomps in, he will place the other stomps into other units, killing just 1-3 is enough, b.c next turn you only need to kill 1 to force a test.
If your Playing it that gants dont need synapse, or your playing a 5k pt list that is different, But im also talking about forcing moral.
I guess it depends on exactly what they have. If its like you posted I probably hide the flyrants behind the bastion and some terrain... most good events have some big line of sight blockers that you can usually with the bastion use to block them off for at least a turn before the serpents can remobilize... if not probably just hide some junk and tough it out.
Sinful Hero wrote: @Amishprn86
If you're not going first, just reserve your Flyrants and zoom in from a table edge if you can't hide them behind terrain or a bastion.
Or just take a malanthrope for that sweet 2+ and yell "COME AT ME BRO"
Sinful Hero wrote: @Amishprn86
If you're not going first, just reserve your Flyrants and zoom in from a table edge if you can't hide them behind terrain or a bastion.
Or just take a malanthrope for that sweet 2+ and yell "COME AT ME BRO"
He didnt have one, i was talking about his winning list.
This is how I would take on serpent-spam and Adlance knights with Sean's list.
Against Mechdar:
1. Null deployment. Deploy minimally. Hide whatever gets deployed. Give him (mechdar opponent) no target if possible. I would prefer to go 2nd. Only infiltrate the units that can hide. Outflank stealers, or possibly infiltrate them if there is a large BLOS terrain somewhere in the middle. You want to force him to move his forces around the terrain and away from his board edge.
2. When lictors come in, put them in rear arc of the serpents. Put at least 2 per serpent. Force him to jink by shooting in rear armor. Use Comms to keep mawlocs off the table.
3. When he turns his serpents around to shoot at the lictors, now he's exposed his rear armor to to your flyrants devourers. If he doesn't, then you've got a good chance of having at least 1 lictor make it into combat and you stand a decent chance of doing damage to it in assault.
4. If he disembarks his troops to take out your lictor, then now you've got a target for your mawlocs. Next turn, if one of your lictors survive, your mawloc will basically auto-kill his troops when it comes up using the lictor as the homing beacon.
5. If you infiltrated your stealers, then on T2 when you lictors come in, now is the time play aggressively with those stealers. Now he's got to deal with lictors, genestealers and flyrants all at once. Talk about Maximum Threat Overload!
6. Grab secondary objective points while he is busy fighting off your army. He may be killing your units, but you are accumulating more points every turn than he is with rippers, genestealers, lictors and even the mawlocs.
7. Forcing him to jink is vital. That makes your units much more survivable and much harder to kill. 4 S6 shots to the rear from 2 lictors should be enough to force him to jink. As for troops disembarking, most mechdar players in tournament bring units of 5 dire avengers. Assuming you have your lictor in cover for 4+ cover, 5 dires, 10 shots, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 2W get through. That's not enough to kill the lictor. Now you can assault his unit next turn or assault the serpent.
It's not easy, but the shrewd general can definitely win against mechdar (and Sean, who is a GT winner himself even before this tournament, is definitely a very good general). The most important thing is that you've got the element of surprise. Most opponents won't know how to play against this list nor will they realize just how survivable it actually is. You have the knowledge. Your opponent doesn't. Therefore, you've actually got the advantage in most matchups.
Against Adlance Knights:
1. Positioning, positioning, positioning. You don't need to even kill 1 knight to beat an Adlance army. You can beat them through positioning and by controlling the Movement phase.
2. Screening and Movement blockers. The most important tactic against the knights is to impede their movement and to prevent them from advancing. Dump lictors in front of them 1 at a time. Force him to go around (and thus, to split up). Use your flyrants as movement blockers as well. You've got a huge numbers advantage against his knights. USE IT!
3. Kill off his support units. Flyrants and mawlocs can usually do that quite easily. Kill off his support units and watch him play with frustration as he can't even get past your lictors.
4. If he splits up his knights to go around your movement blockers, that is the perfect time to take them on with your flyrants (if you lack better targets). Position 1 in each flank and then dakka the crap out of him. You probably won't kill him right away, but you will finish him off over time.
5. The "bait". Only do this if the knight is already damaged (maybe with 3HP or less). Bait a knight by landing a flyrant in terrain. Shoot the crap out of him and then let him charge you next turn. Then watch him eat D3 haywire electroshock grubs with your Overwatch and then Smash him to death. A word of caution though - the more experienced players probably won't fall for it.
6. If there are Secondary objectives, play to the Secondaries. While he is busy just trying to get out of his backfield, you should be grabbing objective points each and every turn. Sure, he'll end up killing a lot of lictors and probably mawlocs, but he should be way down in points because he can't reach the objectives.
xttz wrote: Tomorrow night I have a game arranged at my club against a guy wanting to try out his new Chaos Warhound. He has specifically asked for my "most overpowered list" to try it against, so I'm looking for ideas. He normally plays Nurgle/Khorne-heavy CSM+daemons, and we're playing 2k pts. I expect he'll run it as a Nurgle Warhound using the rules in IA13, leaving ~1200pts to fill.
The question is what I run against him. While the obvious choice is Skyblight, I don't own any Crones or Harpies and don't really like the idea of proxying them (I have enough models I rarely get to use). What I do have to pick from is:
...
...
I just got home from this game, and the result is a very resounding crushing Tyranid victory~
My opponent was happy for me to use the new rules from WD (including the upcoming one), so for my list I went with:
Harridan, Flyrant, Malanthrope, vanilla gaunts, devilguants in a pod, 3 shockcannon hive guard in a pod, and 6 zoans in a pod.
The opposing army consisted of:
Warhound with dual turbo-lasers, a large screen of cultists, 10 marines, Sicarian, Predator, Forgefiend and a Storm Eagle.
My supporting psychic power rolls were mediocre, but the Battle-Forged re-roll got me Strategic Genius, letting me re-roll reserves which was fantastic for this list.
I got first turn, and only moved the Flyrant and Harridan into the centre of the field while the Malanthrope and gaunts stopped back on an objective. The Flyrant was able to strip both shields off the Titan, allowing the Harridan to follow up by knocking off 2 hull points. On his turn he responded by... killing one termagant with the titan, as most were out of LoS and it couldn't shoot the flyers. His supporting army didn't fare much better, failing to land an unsaved wound on either creature sitting right in front of them.
Now comes turn two, and I roll for reserves. Devilgaunts on, Hive Guard on, Zoanthropes... roll a 1. But thanks to the warlord trait that is quickly fixed, and all 3 pods land around his army while my flyers advance nearby. I roll a decent amount of warp charge, and throw 6 dice into Warp Blast aimed squarely at the Titan. It succeeds, but four for the six shots miss. The fifth takes out a newly repaired void shield, while the final hit lands perfectly, scoring Explodes and knocking off 3 HP.
The Hive Guard quickly follow up with Haywire attacks, stripping a further 3HP with ease. With a single hullpoint remaining the Harridan fires wildly from point blank range. Despite somehow missing most of its shots, one glance does get through. BOOM - Titan down. The explosion rips through the Cultist screen, and damages all three Chaos vehicles nearby. The Flyrant finishes off the Forgefiend with a volley of glancing hits, and the devilguants further pour salt into the wound by wiping out the marines in a single volley, and taking their objective.
With a smoking crater where his army used to be, all my opponent can do is damage control. The Storm Eagle arrives and along with the surviving vehicles, pour all of their fire into the Zoanthropes in revenge. After a string of solid warp field saves only two of them drop to the ground. The remaining cultists desperately try to tie up the Hive Guard in combat, inflicting a wound but losing one of their number in return.
Turn 3 was simply a case of cleaning up. The Harridan really showed what you can do with S10 skyfire, sending the Storm Eagle tumbling off the table. The Flyrant finishes off the Predator from behind, and the Zoans repeat their previous performance to only land a single penetrating hit on the Sicarian. However one hit was enough to leave it a smoking wreck. This time the Hive Guard inflict enough damage to cause the cultists to flee, and they leave the board with nothing but a dead Princeps for the Malanthrope to consume...
With FMC Tyranids, Imperial Titans ain't no thing but a chicken wing.
OrdoSean wrote: I guess it depends on exactly what they have. If its like you posted I probably hide the flyrants behind the bastion and some terrain... most good events have some big line of sight blockers that you can usually with the bastion use to block them off for at least a turn before the serpents can remobilize... if not probably just hide some junk and tough it out.
Were you generally picking the progressive scoring primaries?
Also why on earth did your tau opponent line up for your Mawlocs?
How did the game go against space wolves and bikes?
ETA. WTF was up with the spore mines? Did they accomplish anything? Eat some overwatch for your lictors? Why not just more rippers or something?
Ok, this is my 3rd game running the Deathleaper Assassin Brood and also my first time trying out the Tyrannocyte. My opponent today, Chris, is just getting back into the game after a brief hiatus. He's played a number of times with his Daemons and have been changing it up, trying different units and such. We actually played recently before. It was his first introduction to my Dimachaeron and he learned to fear it as it single-handedly took out over 1000-pts of his army. He's learned since how to deal with it with a little advice from me - get Baleswords for your Nurgle monsters!
This will also be my 1st match against a Daemon Summoning army. Well, he's not running a pure Summoning army, but he can definitely summon a lot of stuff if he wanted, thanks to 4 Level 3 psykers on his list. However, he is also playing a somewhat themed list running mainly Nurgle and Slaanesh units. I, on the other hand, am trying out the Deathleaper Assassin Brood formation. It's not a super-competitive Tyranid build, but I'm finding it to be super-fun because it really is a challenging army to play. Unlike some of my more competitive armies, this army really forces you to play more strategically, which in turn will help you more to become a better player. It's not easy, but I'm finding that winning with it oftentimes is much more rewarding to me than winning with my more hardcore, competitive lists.
1. Hold Your Objective 1.
2. Hold Your Objective 2.
3. Hold Your Opponent's Objective 1.
4. Hold Your Opponent's Objective 2.
5. Destroy an enemy unit.
6. Destroy an enemy unit.
Tertiary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, 1-pt each
Daemon Summoning may be a problem. If he rolls well for his Summoning powers, then I just may be in trouble. He especially got lucky with Incursion, which he can use to summon some highly mobile units to complement his otherwise rather slow army. I will also potentially have problems against his army in close combat. Unlike last game, where my Dimachaeron just walked through his army without a care in the world, this game is going to be much different. I can't fight his MC's directly. He's got too much insta-killing offense. I need to park my dimachaeron on an objective in cover and then let his MC's charge me. I should then be able to take out all but the GUO with Endurance.
How I plan to beat my opponent is in the Movement Phase. I plan to beat him with my philosophy of Positional Dominance. Basically, I need to keep his main forces "distracted" by throwing waves and waves of units at him and then take the objectives with my lictors and rippers while he is busy dealing with them. Now this is easier said than done, as he can summon daemons to take objectives and then I am forced to deal with them with single lictors, mawlocs and rippers (in other words, my not-so-offensive units). If he falls for my "trap", then I think that I can take this. However, if he plays his army more aggressively, then I think I am going to have a hard time against his army, especially if summoning is going his way.
In this game, I'm not sure how big of a role my flyrants will play. I am going to have problems taking out his T7 MC's in ruins for 2+ cover (and 4+ FNP!) or his FMC with 2+ jink saves. Even his troops should be getting 2+ cover if he plays them correctly. At least I don't have much to fear with his shooting, or rather, lack of....or do I?
One unit I haven't seen mentioned in all these new release hype and how it has possibly improved them is Ravenors?
Does mass reserve, turn 2 M.T.O help them? I can see a couple of units of these things arriving at the same time as a couple of pods of killy things (Fexes, Dimas etc) with Mawlocs popping up as well? What do you guys think?
Eldercaveman wrote: One unit I haven't seen mentioned in all these new release hype and how it has possibly improved them is Ravenors?
Does mass reserve, turn 2 M.T.O help them? I can see a couple of units of these things arriving at the same time as a couple of pods of killy things (Fexes, Dimas etc) with Mawlocs popping up as well? What do you guys think?
Eldercaveman wrote: One unit I haven't seen mentioned in all these new release hype and how it has possibly improved them is Ravenors?
Does mass reserve, turn 2 M.T.O help them? I can see a couple of units of these things arriving at the same time as a couple of pods of killy things (Fexes, Dimas etc) with Mawlocs popping up as well? What do you guys think?
Bastion, comms relay, void shield (had 25 points to spare)
With upgrades that comes to 1850 points
Are Lictors finally a thing? The coolest model in the fluff and aesthetically is actually seeing some use? Yessssss!
In some ways, yes. Although I would suggest if you do want lictors you go the route of Deathleapers assassin brood for mass while not using up any Elite slots.
6 precision deep striking multi wounded infantry models coupled together with podding Dakkafex' and Dimachaerons and sprouting up Mawlocs could be very a effective tactic. Just hope that they take the lictor bait and be sure to have some sort of reserve booster i.e coms relay.
Side note:
Deep strike lictors into ruins for a 3+ cover save thanks to stealth. avoid SMS.
Try and keep the mawlocs in reserve until T3 to make use of the lictors pheromone trail.
Couple Deathleapers it's after me! with Shadows, the formation special rule AND Neurothropes spirit leach and you should have a field day VS Cent bombs.
tag8833 wrote: Were you generally picking the progressive scoring primaries?
Also why on earth did your tau opponent line up for your Mawlocs?
How did the game go against space wolves and bikes?
ETA. WTF was up with the spore mines? Did they accomplish anything? Eat some overwatch for your lictors? Why not just more rippers or something?
I generally did not choose the progressive missions, aside from table quarters.
I dont know why the tau player lined up, it was hammer and anvil and he had been pushing hard to get to the few units I had lined on my board edge to kill them. So I think he got caught up trying to deny me my comms relay and when one or two models lived he got caught with his pants down.
The game against space wolves and bikes was the only close one I had. Came down to tiebreakers with us both beat up. PLayer is very good and a friend so he came at least prepared to understand.
tag8833 wrote: Were you generally picking the progressive scoring primaries?
Also why on earth did your tau opponent line up for your Mawlocs?
How did the game go against space wolves and bikes?
ETA. WTF was up with the spore mines? Did they accomplish anything? Eat some overwatch for your lictors? Why not just more rippers or something?
I generally did not choose the progressive missions, aside from table quarters.
I dont know why the tau player lined up, it was hammer and anvil and he had been pushing hard to get to the few units I had lined on my board edge to kill them. So I think he got caught up trying to deny me my comms relay and when one or two models lived he got caught with his pants down.
The game against space wolves and bikes was the only close one I had. Came down to tiebreakers with us both beat up. PLayer is very good and a friend so he came at least prepared to understand.
Would you be interested in giving a unit by unit breakdown of why you chose it and how you used it? I think everyone really wants to pick your brain over this list since it's so different from the conventional wisdom that's been established here in this thread. It might be a lot of work, but I'm sure quite a few people would appreciate it.
Its funny to me how some folks just don't get a list or expect a certain list to be blown off the table by some top tier lists.
It's not that hard to understand how the list would work.
It's well rounded, saturated in threats which pretty much enter play at the same time with the Mawlocs having awesome synergy with 8 Lictors + Death Leaper.
Sean clearly tested his list against top tier and if he felt he couldn't stand up to those matchups he wouldn't have taken this list.
I'm surprised that people like Sean share his experiences and information considering the backlash and disbelief received by some people.
C'mon guys, this is a genius list and a superb victory for the Nids.
L0rdF1end wrote: Its funny to me how some folks just don't get a list or expect a certain list to be blown off the table by some top tier lists.
It's not that hard to understand how the list would work. It's well rounded, saturated in threats which pretty much enter play at the same time with the Mawlocs having awesome synergy with 8 Lictors + Death Leaper.
Sean clearly tested his list against top tier and if he felt he couldn't stand up to those matchups he wouldn't have taken this list.
I'm surprised that people like Sean share his experiences and information considering the backlash and disbelief received by some people. C'mon guys, this is a genius list and a superb victory for the Nids.
Lets all rejoice!
What? There is no backlash or disbelief. All I've seen is congratulations. People asking him for advice, and others asking for clarifications, nobody seems to be doing anything but trying to build their own strategy and try absorb something a unconventional, or pat him on the back. Why you feel the need to be rude to people wondering this is beyond me, and elitist as hell, on some "oh you guys are incapable of understanding how this works at a top tier, I'm surprised he is sharing his experiences with you guys, so stop trying to discuss with him".
Also, it's a dice game, practically any list can achieve anything with the right amount of luck. Stop with the elitist crap, if you can explain how the list is so "genius" why don't you try answering some of the questions people are asking. The guy got a good result with less popular units, it doesn't change the facts behind the units themselves, and if you think it does based on this alone, I'd recommend forging your own opinions on units rather than blindly assuming other people know better based off a good result. Because it's such a small sample.
Eldercaveman wrote: One unit I haven't seen mentioned in all these new release hype and how it has possibly improved them is Ravenors?
Does mass reserve, turn 2 M.T.O help them? I can see a couple of units of these things arriving at the same time as a couple of pods of killy things (Fexes, Dimas etc) with Mawlocs popping up as well? What do you guys think?
Bastion, comms relay, void shield (had 25 points to spare)
With upgrades that comes to 1850 points
The thing with ravenors is that they still just aren't as good as shrike. For 180 points (the cost of 6 ravs) you can get 4 shrikes with AG, FH, RC and 1 BS. They have synapse and can hide pretty well until the rest of your army comes in on T2/3.
The onset of pods do make them more viable though as you can reliably stage a turn 3 assault with your big beasties and your ravs/shrikes which was a lot more difficult before against mobile armies
L0rdF1end wrote: Its funny to me how some folks just don't get a list or expect a certain list to be blown off the table by some top tier lists.
It's not that hard to understand how the list would work.
It's well rounded, saturated in threats which pretty much enter play at the same time with the Mawlocs having awesome synergy with 8 Lictors + Death Leaper.
Sean clearly tested his list against top tier and if he felt he couldn't stand up to those matchups he wouldn't have taken this list.
I'm surprised that people like Sean share his experiences and information considering the backlash and disbelief received by some people.
C'mon guys, this is a genius list and a superb victory for the Nids.
Lets all rejoice!
What? There is no backlash or disbelief. All I've seen is congratulations. People asking him for advice, and others asking for clarifications, nobody seems to be doing anything but trying to build their own strategy and try absorb something a unconventional, or pat him on the back. Why you feel the need to be rude to people wondering this is beyond me, and elitist as hell, on some "oh you guys are incapable of understanding how this works at a top tier, I'm surprised he is sharing his experiences with you guys, so stop trying to discuss with him".
Also, it's a dice game, practically any list can achieve anything with the right amount of luck. Stop with the elitist crap, if you can explain how the list is so "genius" why don't you try answering some of the questions people are asking. The guy got a good result with less popular units, it doesn't change the facts behind the units themselves, and if you think it does based on this alone, I'd recommend forging your own opinions on units rather than blindly assuming other people know better based off a good result. Because it's such a small sample.
Diito- We have only praised, quizzed and congratulated Sean for his astonishing win. Wins get questioned and disected to better understand the codex - especially wins on this scale. Now lets get back to tactics before the thread derails again.
L0rdF1end wrote: Its funny to me how some folks just don't get a list or expect a certain list to be blown off the table by some top tier lists.
It's not that hard to understand how the list would work.
It's well rounded, saturated in threats which pretty much enter play at the same time with the Mawlocs having awesome synergy with 8 Lictors + Death Leaper.
Sean clearly tested his list against top tier and if he felt he couldn't stand up to those matchups he wouldn't have taken this list.
I'm surprised that people like Sean share his experiences and information considering the backlash and disbelief received by some people.
C'mon guys, this is a genius list and a superb victory for the Nids.
Lets all rejoice!
What? There is no backlash or disbelief. All I've seen is congratulations. People asking him for advice, and others asking for clarifications, nobody seems to be doing anything but trying to build their own strategy and try absorb something a unconventional, or pat him on the back. Why you feel the need to be rude to people wondering this is beyond me, and elitist as hell, on some "oh you guys are incapable of understanding how this works at a top tier, I'm surprised he is sharing his experiences with you guys, so stop trying to discuss with him".
Also, it's a dice game, practically any list can achieve anything with the right amount of luck. Stop with the elitist crap, if you can explain how the list is so "genius" why don't you try answering some of the questions people are asking. The guy got a good result with less popular units, it doesn't change the facts behind the units themselves, and if you think it does based on this alone, I'd recommend forging your own opinions on units rather than blindly assuming other people know better based off a good result. Because it's such a small sample.
OrdoSean wrote: I generally did not choose the progressive missions, aside from table quarters.
I dont know why the tau player lined up, it was hammer and anvil and he had been pushing hard to get to the few units I had lined on my board edge to kill them. So I think he got caught up trying to deny me my comms relay and when one or two models lived he got caught with his pants down.
The game against space wolves and bikes was the only close one I had. Came down to tiebreakers with us both beat up. PLayer is very good and a friend so he came at least prepared to understand.
How did the spore mines function as a part of your list?
How many of your Mawloc drops got to benefit from the Lictor's teleport homer?
Do you think that your MSU build would be able to hang with other top tier lists when playing other missions?
OrdoSean wrote: I generally did not choose the progressive missions, aside from table quarters.
I dont know why the tau player lined up, it was hammer and anvil and he had been pushing hard to get to the few units I had lined on my board edge to kill them. So I think he got caught up trying to deny me my comms relay and when one or two models lived he got caught with his pants down.
The game against space wolves and bikes was the only close one I had. Came down to tiebreakers with us both beat up. PLayer is very good and a friend so he came at least prepared to understand.
How did the spore mines function as a part of your list?
How many of your Mawloc drops got to benefit from the Lictor's teleport homer?
Do you think that your MSU build would be able to hang with other top tier lists when playing other missions?
Also, knowing what you do now after the tournament, how/would you change anything in your list?
Ok, I was going to leave it there but you asked for it.
I'm not being elitist in any sense. my post was directed at some of the above posts.
In essence, leave the guy alone, he doesn't have to explain word for word how his list works and it's pretty obvious. See my statement above which basically describes what the list does,
I don't see how you feel I'm being elitist in any sense.
A guy who posts in the Tyranid strategy discussion thread just won a GT, and you are telling people to stop asking him for advice or explanation on his GT winning list (on his behalf, even though he's expressed zero annoyance about it himself), for no other reason than the fact that you feel his list is easy to understand, yet you offer absolutely zero explanation yourself? I'm sorry but how is this not elitist? Do you know what the term means?
L0rdF1end wrote: Shuppet, coming from you this is rich, I've never heard so much endless dribble from one person.
But I guess this is what happens when you have a site that's used by the many, the decent posts get watered down by people who don't really know what they are talking about and post because they have nothing better to do.
Excellent response to someone asking you to stop being rude. Turn the rudeness up a notch with irrelevant, completely unsubstantiated, and factually inaccurate insults.
Nobody is forcing anybody to post in here or even read the thread, why you have had such an emotional response and taken such a personal issue to people simply asking a GT winner questions about his list, and keep telling everyone to leave him alone, is really curiously weird. This is Tyranid strategy discussion, I'm pretty sure people can speak for themselves if they feel harassed, otherwise I agree, let the questions and the discussion fly, nobody is holding it back but you.
I for one am loving that Sean is answering questions, and was enjoying the (til now) fully positive attitude revolving around the whole event. Regardless of how well constructed the list was, Bugs proved once again in mind that with a good player at the helm they really are the dark horse army!
L0rdF1end wrote: In essence, leave the guy alone, he doesn't have to explain word for word how his list works and it's pretty obvious.
1) I don't think it is obvious how his list works at all. For instance, he could be infiltrating stuff, deep striking it. He might try to bring in the Mawlocs on 2, or start them on the board so when they arrive on 3, the Lictors guide them in.
2) He doesn't have to answer any questions. The fact that he has taken the time is to his credit, but no one would fault him if he were silent.
3) I view the whole point of this thread and the tactics forum in general is to discuss tactics and playstyles. Sean has just demonstrated superior tactics with an unconventional playstyle, so it is exactly what we should be talking about.
The list is great no doubt. I have had more than a few conversations with Sean online previously when he commandeered and basically invented the first beast pack lists. So we know he is an accomplished player. We know that tournament had some top players too. Sean has always been willing to share his thoughts - he is very generous that way, btw. So lets not make an issue of it.
I think (you can correct me Sean) that asking for too many specifics is difficult as he did not play some of the top builds. I can see the inherent trickery in the list too. Mawlocs that TFTD and mishap actually get to return faster - nice. Lictors with it and run and reposition 3D6 - nice. Spore Mines can surround and block of a unit (who wants to target a 25 point squad after all) and set infantry up for the Mawlocs or stop a WK/IK from advancing quickly.
Sean mentioned that he would likely change the list now that Mucolids are available. Their synergy with the list is obvious. He also plans on running it again. Now I played the formation when it was first out and had some good results. But never as good as this and honestly I did not use eight Lictors - I had a different elite configuration and back when I played it I had not yet hit on MSU rippers. I am slow at adopting new strategies.
Now you might notice how long I have been playing and commenting on dakka - I rarely take offense and I often find remarks hyperbolic and at times a bit rude - when commenting on something I've said. Hey, that is the internet. People can judge me however they like. They can dismiss out of hand anything I write. We all sort through these threads looking for something we can use in our game. We discard - sometimes prejudicially - advice and comments given. I had that experience recently with a Tau list I posted in army lists that was universally knocked and that went on to a 3-1 win record. Some lists are just a bit harder to absorb fully.
felixcat wrote: Now I played the formation when it was first out and had some good results. But never as good as this and honestly I did not use eight Lictors - I had a different elite configuration and back when I played it I had not yet hit on MSU rippers. I am slow at adopting new strategies.
I also playtested the formation (With both Genestealers and Mawlocs), and found success against certain opponents, but was getting demolished by Tau, Orks, and to a lesser extent space wolves consistently, so I moved away from it. With new metas from all 3 of those, it is clearly time to take another look at it, and a reminder not to permanently table something with such a fluid meta.
I think the coolest thing about the list is that it shows the use of the much overlooked Spore Mines.
However I personally wouldn't use a few ragtag Stealers as my troops, much preferring to take more Lictors to secure pheromones and do it much more versatile, that being said I imagine it's largely a play style difference. N
I agree that Mucolids would be a lot better however, and they are definitely going to be the best troop in any Lictor build IMO.
Also dont forget that with the lictors you can precision deep strike your hive tyrants from reserve and they count as flying the turn they come in. Gives you a lot of potential threat areas, as well as leaves your opponent in a tough target priority situation(assuming he even knows what they can do).
Combined with additional Mawlocs and other deep striking things, with just enough on the table to prevent him from shooting your lictors(or hiding them out of LOS also works). While not the most competative it gives you a lot of options to react, and in many cases with a good general having options is better than having pure power.
Sinful Hero wrote: So what units are left that have not been used in a competitive setting?
Pyrovores?
Skyslashers?
Do you mean in this iteration of the dex, or in ever?
Pyrovores are actually pretty great with the addition of pods, and are far more playable than crap like Haruspex.
In "ever", I'd probably say just Skyslashers, Haruspex, Raveners, and Old One Eye are the only units to have never been useful. Raveners the least bad out of the lot, just completely outclassed.
I have only played 'Nids since the new Codex came out, so I built my collection and started playing well later than the supposed "Golden Age". That means I haven't felt the particular weaknesses of the Codex, having never lived in an age of Drop-Pod (Mycetic Spores), etc...
That all said, I began my love affair with 'Nids by buying Space Hulk as a younger man, and the first I owned/painted were a set of Space Hulk 3rd Ed Stealers/Broodlord.
To date, they have been the only "turds" I own in terms of actually playing 40k as 'Nids.
Is the Tyrannocyst Spore-thing a way to rehabilitate these guys? I would LOVE for Genestealers to be awesome, but is loading a pod to the gills with these guys and a Broodlord a decent idea, or are they just gonna get shot to ribbons before they can finally assault?
Maybe so... But not exactly. I think we might be able to use Stealers if we pack a pod or two with Something Else. The secret seems (to me) to provide too many prioritys, so the foe can make mistakes. If that mistake is to ignore the Stealers, then they can charge home. It still is painful to take overwatch (The Horror helps, or anything else that can pin) but the reason they are unusable is they get whitled down during the advance, and they are too expensive to function as bullet magnets.
The only success I've had is screening them with Hormagaunts. (odd but functional) or getting a "pin". (mostly from Strangle Cannons form a Warrior Brood) But it's possible that combining Infiltrate, Outflank, and Deep Strike will generate enough pressure.
Its definitely something i'll be trying. I just love them too much fluff-wise to not try to make them work to their (limited?) potential.
I agree with pinning being a big asset for them, so i'm thinking Stranglethorns on two Tyranocysts dropping in other tempting targets, combined with The Horror from a Broodlord. That should be a fair few times where pinning can conceivably happen, in addition to all the offering of many tempting targets. Maybe combined it will let them finally do so work for me. :-p
Sinful Hero wrote: So what units are left that have not been used in a competitive setting?
Pyrovores?
Skyslashers?
Do you mean in this iteration of the dex, or in ever?
Pyrovores are actually pretty great with the addition of pods, and are far more playable than crap like Haruspex.
In "ever", I'd probably say just Skyslashers, Haruspex, Raveners, and Old One Eye are the only units to have never been useful. Raveners the least bad out of the lot, just completely outclassed.
I meant in the current iteration. Sean just showed us that Lictors and Spore Mines can be made to work in a competitive setting. I was curious what's left. Haruspex, Skyslashers, Old One Eye, Pyrovores, and Trygons haven't been in any winning lists yet have they? What else, is my question. Not necessarily saying they can't be made to work, but what hasn't been used yet.
Sinful Hero wrote: So what units are left that have not been used in a competitive setting?
Pyrovores?
Skyslashers?
Do you mean in this iteration of the dex, or in ever?
Pyrovores are actually pretty great with the addition of pods, and are far more playable than crap like Haruspex.
In "ever", I'd probably say just Skyslashers, Haruspex, Raveners, and Old One Eye are the only units to have never been useful. Raveners the least bad out of the lot, just completely outclassed.
I meant in the current iteration. Sean just showed us that Lictors and Spore Mines can be made to work in a competitive setting. I was curious what's left. Haruspex, Skyslashers, Old One Eye, Pyrovores, and Trygons haven't been in any winning lists yet have they? What else, is my question. Not necessarily saying they can't be made to work, but what hasn't been used yet.
Hive Guard really. It was funny that they got a new box and then the rules became so bad (1 point of BS and points hike was all it took) that nobody buys or uses them anymore.
Tyrant Guard are kind of in the same boat but that was more that they are a assault only unit that moves 6" a turn...
Pods should help but if we really wanted to work with them why did no one ever take Tyrant Guard outflanked by Hive Commander?
With the whole army coming in by pods it could feasibly add one more threat to the "overload" but I don't see it becoming uber popular or part of any tourney winning lists.
L0rdF1end wrote: In essence, leave the guy alone, he doesn't have to explain word for word how his list works and it's pretty obvious.
1) I don't think it is obvious how his list works at all. For instance, he could be infiltrating stuff, deep striking it. He might try to bring in the Mawlocs on 2, or start them on the board so when they arrive on 3, the Lictors guide them in.
2) He doesn't have to answer any questions. The fact that he has taken the time is to his credit, but no one would fault him if he were silent.
3) I view the whole point of this thread and the tactics forum in general is to discuss tactics and playstyles. Sean has just demonstrated superior tactics with an unconventional playstyle, so it is exactly what we should be talking about.
Not so sure I understand what happened here.
None of my statements/feelings were directed at 99% of the posters on this forum.
I apologise to anyone that I may have upset.
Perhaps I got the wrong of the stick and will apologise for doing so.
1. It would depend on matchup and terrain concerning what would be done with units in the list.
2. Sure, I just felt a few responses were like TELL US WHAT YOUR PLAN WAS for scenario a,b etc..
3. Exactly, I just felt that one might be put off supplying information in reply to some certain posts.
Lesson learned, think twice before posting.
Sorry for the slight derail. Please continue this discussion and forgive my interruption/rant.
Pyrovores are usable now but they are still questionable for competitive play.
If you want to look at units that could be used - well Shrikes are rarely seen but have uses. Again - hard to fit in a competitive list - generally you would take a Hive Crone first ( I know in Sean's list I would drop srealers for Mucolids - drop a spore mine cluster ( you have mucolids now) and add a hive crone for a little insurance. But that is me.
All the available new units and drop pods will change the way Nid lists look - no doubt of that. However, it does not invalidate other builds we have been using. Unorthodoxy ( jancoren here) just ran tha ambassadorial tournament ( no FW or new units) and Nids won. So they make appearances and still win some tournaments.
Because they did not do well at Nova or BAO does not invalidate them. A lot centers around which of the top players decide to run them. Looking at results can be misleading as many top players simply fall back on Eldar or deathstar builds.
I have only played 'Nids since the new Codex came out, so I built my collection and started playing well later than the supposed "Golden Age". That means I haven't felt the particular weaknesses of the Codex, having never lived in an age of Drop-Pod (Mycetic Spores), etc...
That all said, I began my love affair with 'Nids by buying Space Hulk as a younger man, and the first I owned/painted were a set of Space Hulk 3rd Ed Stealers/Broodlord.
To date, they have been the only "turds" I own in terms of actually playing 40k as 'Nids.
Is the Tyrannocyst Spore-thing a way to rehabilitate these guys? I would LOVE for Genestealers to be awesome, but is loading a pod to the gills with these guys and a Broodlord a decent idea, or are they just gonna get shot to ribbons before they can finally assault?
Maybe so... But not exactly. I think we might be able to use Stealers if we pack a pod or two with Something Else. The secret seems (to me) to provide too many prioritys, so the foe can make mistakes. If that mistake is to ignore the Stealers, then they can charge home. It still is painful to take overwatch (The Horror helps, or anything else that can pin) but the reason they are unusable is they get whitled down during the advance, and they are too expensive to function as bullet magnets.
The only success I've had is screening them with Hormagaunts. (odd but functional) or getting a "pin". (mostly from Strangle Cannons form a Warrior Brood) But it's possible that combining Infiltrate, Outflank, and Deep Strike will generate enough pressure.
Its definitely something i'll be trying. I just love them too much fluff-wise to not try to make them work to their (limited?) potential.
I agree with pinning being a big asset for them, so i'm thinking Stranglethorns on two Tyranocysts dropping in other tempting targets, combined with The Horror from a Broodlord. That should be a fair few times where pinning can conceivably happen, in addition to all the offering of many tempting targets. Maybe combined it will let them finally do so work for me. :-p
Shoot, It may be the meds...but I really want to use Brood Lord Hunting Pack. Not sure why though. Yeah, likely the meds...
Sinful Hero wrote: So what units are left that have not been used in a competitive setting?
Pyrovores?
Skyslashers?
Do you mean in this iteration of the dex, or in ever?
Pyrovores are actually pretty great with the addition of pods, and are far more playable than crap like Haruspex.
In "ever", I'd probably say just Skyslashers, Haruspex, Raveners, and Old One Eye are the only units to have never been useful. Raveners the least bad out of the lot, just completely outclassed.
I meant in the current iteration. Sean just showed us that Lictors and Spore Mines can be made to work in a competitive setting. I was curious what's left. Haruspex, Skyslashers, Old One Eye, Pyrovores, and Trygons haven't been in any winning lists yet have they? What else, is my question. Not necessarily saying they can't be made to work, but what hasn't been used yet.
Hive Guard really. It was funny that they got a new box and then the rules became so bad (1 point of BS and points hike was all it took) that nobody buys or uses them anymore.
Tyrant Guard are kind of in the same boat but that was more that they are a assault only unit that moves 6" a turn...
Pods should help but if we really wanted to work with them why did no one ever take Tyrant Guard outflanked by Hive Commander?
With the whole army coming in by pods it could feasibly add one more threat to the "overload" but I don't see it becoming uber popular or part of any tourney winning lists.
I dunno...I've been thinking of Tyrant Guard with Crushing Claws. x2 as a poor bug's Stonecrusher Carnafex. Shoot I guess you can run x3 Broods for a reasonable cost, even toss in a Pod.
felixcat has it on the nose here, there aren't enough tournaments for any statistical validity to be reached.
Now, if GW would just go the way of WotC and start an ELO system and a professional circuit with prize support for smaller events... (having fixed the unbalanced rules set first!)
Man I would be very happy
Back on topic - my housemate is running something like this soon:
2 dakka flyrants
3 zoanthrope
16 hormagaunts
16 hormagaunts
3 rippers DS 3 rippers DS hive crone
dakkafex x2
LAN
1850 pts
I will be with Imperial Fists:
CM on bike TH/SE
grav-bike squad
2 tac squads, rhinos
2 stormtalons
grav-cents in LR TFC stalker
Predictions/thoughts? (Both are my armies, I just want to have a game with fully painted minis and nice terrain, and get more of a feel for the tactics involved!)
* Tyranid Warrior Brood
Venom Cannon
* Tyranid Warrior
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Devourer, Scything Talons
* Tyranid Warrior
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Devourer, Scything Talons
* Tyranid Warrior
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Devourer, Scything Talons
* Tyranid Warrior
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Devourer, Scything Talons
* Tyranid Warrior
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Devourer, Scything Talons
* Tyranid Warrior
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Devourer, Scything Talons
* Tyranid Warrior
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Devourer, Scything Talons
* Tyranid Warrior
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Devourer, Scything Talons
* Tyranid Shrike Brood ( think about use up Raveners model if it was bad idea then 6 x Raveners )
Barbed Strangler
* Tyranid Shrike
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Rending Claws, Spinefists
* Tyranid Shrike
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Rending Claws, Spinefists
* Tyranid Shrike
(Shadow in the Warp, Synapse Creature, Very Bulky)
Rending Claws, Spinefists
+ Heavy Support +
* Carnifex Brood ( strip out old wargear ( claw and talons ) and undecided which wargear to build )
* Carnifex
(Fearless, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Living Battering Ram)
Scything Talons, Scything Talons
* Carnifex Brood ( strip out old wargear ( Barbed Strangler and talons) and undecided which wargear to build )
* Carnifex
(Fearless, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Living Battering Ram)
Scything Talons, Scything Talons
* Trygon ( or maw if include Lictor in Brood )
(Deep Strike, Fearless, Fleet, Instinctive Behaviour - Feed, Subterranean Assault)
Bio-electric Pulse, 2x Scything Talons
SHUPPET wrote: So Zoanthropes - say I have a squad of 6 and I succesfully cast, I make 1 roll to hit and am successful, I then go on to make 1 roll to pen? Or 6?
You make 6 rolls to hit, they just all come from the designated firing model.
SHUPPET wrote: So Zoanthropes - say I have a squad of 6 and I succesfully cast, I make 1 roll to hit and am successful, I then go on to make 1 roll to pen? Or 6?
With 6 zoanthropes, warp lance becomes an assault 6 shooting attack, so 6 rolls to hit and 6 potential pens
Sweet,must had a bit of a rules clash with a friend there while trying to get to the bottom of this, neither of us ever really use the damn things much since the changes lol, thanks for the hand guys
With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
Tyrannocysts are "transport options" bought alongside other units (are they though?). If a unit from an Endless Swarm formation is destroyed and returns to play, if said unit arrived by Tyrannocyte does the replacement land by Tyrannocyte as well?
Tyrannocysts are "transport options" bought alongside other units (are they though?). If a unit from an Endless Swarm formation is destroyed and returns to play, if said unit arrived by Tyrannocyte does the replacement land by Tyrannocyte as well?
No as the units in the swarm are listed in the formation rules.
that and a Tyrannocyte is a heavy support in the same way a drop pod is a FA in the space wolf codex.
only it does not use up a slot in a CAD.
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
I like it, I would be nervous not having something to gaurentee me those reserve rolls though!
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
I like it, I would be nervous not having something to gaurentee me those reserve rolls though!
hmm. What would suggest? There's always Strategic Warlord traits....
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
I like it, I would be nervous not having something to gaurentee me those reserve rolls though!
hmm. What would suggest? There's always Strategic Warlord traits....
Aiming for a 4 with a re-roll isn't unreasonable if you didn't want to invest in a Bastion. It also gives you +1 to seize if you needed it. Honestly I'd find the points in Zoan brood and one unit of Rippers,but that sort of goes against what you are going for, so stick with it see it works. Along as you play with a decent amount of terrain, you should find some ruins or LOS blockers to protect your Hive Tyrants and Malonthrope.
@lechune
Wow! I'm not really a fan of the Dimachaeron but that color scheme looks pretty damn good on it.
@everyone
If one were to use Ravenors, what's a decent loadout? Are the rending claws an auto-buy? With four attacks base are Spinefists a valid choice over Devourers or Deathspitters?
No, but that doesnt make me right. Of all models, he has some really hard to reach areas if you dont paint in subassemblies. I originally planned to have the upper torso magnetized and thus paint the two halves separate, but when my magnets werent quite sufficiently strong enough I just epoxied it and went for it.
I prefer greatly to paint fully assembled, but in this instance I paid for it with a lot of extra time.
Sinful Hero wrote: @lechune
Wow! I'm not really a fan of the Dimachaeron but that color scheme looks pretty damn good on it.
Hey thank you, he wasnt what I envisioned but I kind of like how it turned out as well.
Sinful Hero wrote: @lechune
Wow! I'm not really a fan of the Dimachaeron but that color scheme looks pretty damn good on it.
@everyone
If one were to use Ravenors, what's a decent loadout? Are the rending claws an auto-buy? With four attacks base are Spinefists a valid choice over Devourers or Deathspitters?
See my list above, I'm going to try them out with just rending claws, I'm really bothered about them shooting, I'd rather run them into terrain the turn they arrive, and then assualt out of it next turn
SHUPPET wrote: So Zoanthropes - say I have a squad of 6 and I succesfully cast, I make 1 roll to hit and am successful, I then go on to make 1 roll to pen? Or 6?
I think the answer is 6. (6 rolls to hit, and roll to pen for each hit...)
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
The success of the Assassin Brood at the GT was due to the list/concept design around it to really make the most out of the formation.
I'm not sure how it performs outside of that and haven't really given it much thought outside of considering the use it with Mawlocs for about 2 minutes and then thinking it wouldn't be that great.
Then you see the results of someone list building around it so it performs actually very well within the design of the list itself.
Better I think with mucolid spores, that could be quite nasty. it's certainly shown me there's more to Nids than Skyblight lol.
For the list though, why not throw some mucolid spores and mawlocs in there, might as well if your taking that many lictors.
And agreed, Comms relay is required.
Edit - As well as the bastion to hide your Flyrants behind in case there isn't much BLOS terrain.
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
The success of the Assassin Brood at the GT was due to the list/concept design around it to really make the most out of the formation.
I'm not sure how it performs outside of that and haven't really given it much thought outside of considering the use it with Mawlocs for about 2 minutes and then thinking it wouldn't be that great.
Then you see the results of someone list building around it so it performs actually very well within the design of the list itself.
Better I think with mucolid spores, that could be quite nasty. it's certainly shown me there's more to Nids than Skyblight lol.
For the list though, why not throw some mucolid spores and mawlocs in there, might as well if your taking that many lictors.
And agreed, Comms relay is required.
Edit - As well as the bastion to hide your Flyrants behind in case there isn't much BLOS terrain.
What would you suggest? Drop the third tyrant and rippers for 2 Mawlocs?
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
The success of the Assassin Brood at the GT was due to the list/concept design around it to really make the most out of the formation.
I'm not sure how it performs outside of that and haven't really given it much thought outside of considering the use it with Mawlocs for about 2 minutes and then thinking it wouldn't be that great.
Then you see the results of someone list building around it so it performs actually very well within the design of the list itself.
Better I think with mucolid spores, that could be quite nasty. it's certainly shown me there's more to Nids than Skyblight lol.
For the list though, why not throw some mucolid spores and mawlocs in there, might as well if your taking that many lictors.
And agreed, Comms relay is required.
Edit - As well as the bastion to hide your Flyrants behind in case there isn't much BLOS terrain.
What would you suggest? Drop the third tyrant and rippers for 2 Mawlocs?
To me that would be a much scarier list. I think unless you are going full air force, 2 Hive Tyrants are enough.
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
The success of the Assassin Brood at the GT was due to the list/concept design around it to really make the most out of the formation.
I agree (and would go farther to add that mission design, and terrain play a big part in the success of that GT win).
The problem with the list you posted is the Dimacharon. He doesn't really synergise with anything else, and simplifies your opponent's target priority. Add to that no bonus for reserves, apparently expecting Zoeys to dish out damage, and I don't think you are looking at the most competitive list. If your in a meta where 3 sources are allowed, spam and deathstars are going to rule it with an iron fist, so something like Sean's list might actually do very well at countering the meta, but this list is not Sean's because it compromises the reliability and MSU nature of it.
Sinful Hero wrote: @lechune
Wow! I'm not really a fan of the Dimachaeron but that color scheme looks pretty damn good on it.
@everyone
If one were to use Ravenors, what's a decent loadout? Are the rending claws an auto-buy? With four attacks base are Spinefists a valid choice over Devourers or Deathspitters?
See my list above, I'm going to try them out with just rending claws, I'm really bothered about them shooting, I'd rather run them into terrain the turn they arrive, and then assualt out of it next turn
You can DS them right in to the cover now without having to worry about the DT test, so I run them gunned. Deathspitters normally for pooping rear armor. If you got claws, then you may not need the shooting. Spinefists are good against infantry being TL and 3 shots.
I have 8 raveners, I used to play them as 4-member broods but with 1 or 2 dead they were unefficient.
So I played one brood of 8, but at this time they were overkilling their target and shot to death...
I found a 5 + 3 method: 3 are not a great threat so no one cared and they could wreck a tank whereas 5 were enough to move hidden and sufficient to damage one unit (tac squad by example) at each time. The problem was they took 2 FA slots. 6 may be the better compromise.
Since january I use gargoyles and crone in FA and I'm know thinking like you about MTO with spore-pod, lictors, out-flanking and deep-striking units like my list early in 6th with Ymgarl genestealers and zopes in a spore... but hive commander has changed and I have no comrelay.
Anyway, there's always Strategic warlord traits... xD
Would you be interested in giving a unit by unit breakdown of why you chose it and how you used it? I think everyone really wants to pick your brain over this list since it's so different from the conventional wisdom that's been established here in this thread. It might be a lot of work, but I'm sure quite a few people would appreciate it.
Well something that you need to know about me is I hate to be boring. Most of my list design process starts with me deciding either a theme or a group of units that I want to use. So for example Beast Star Dark Eldar for me was born out of my desire to win games with close combat and use the special character VECT, now that list paradigm certainly evolved into the hated beast star style list that exemplified everything that people hated about 6th edition... but it was not born out of the desire to create an all encompassing unbeatable list.
So backtrack and forward. Ive had tyranids since 5th edition. Bought built a list with lictors, genestealers, a flyrant and some mawlocs, had a lot of fun. All reserves style stuff. 6th edition comes out and you cant put more than 50% in reserves list is dead for that edition. 7th edition its up to you now what and how much... just have to not get tabled, so Lictor/mawloc stuff can work again. Dark eldar get a new book and my assault stuff sucks and Vect is gone so need to make some changes, for kicks and giggles use death leaper formation with old dark eldar in a tournament go 5-1 and really like what the lictors do. So start thinking about playing bugs again.
So with that in mind the list starts to develop, obviously the theme is once again surprise were here so death leaper formation is in, to augment that push as many other lictors as I can in so we end up with 8. From there 3 mawlocs are an easy addition, I already had 2 and so spent a lot of discussion and introspection whether to add a 3rd or go with something else like a carnifex or tyranofex as I had some in boxes I had won in the intervening years... but the 3rd mawloc was a better fit in every way so conceded to the better choice there. I already had one flyrant built and ready(sexy forgeworld one) so thats easy and again I conceded that in this instance its probably not necessary to try and reinvent the wheel, double flyrant is pretty darn solid and nothing else in the slot is fast enough or fits into the list as well. In some test ideas I had ravenors and shrikes in the fast slot and liked them as light lictors... but that involved buying and painting the models so I looked at my case and said well genestealers are kinda like that too.... plus they are already painted. The bastion is just so useful for the comms and line of sight blocking that its an auto take, because you never know if the tournament you are going to will have enough good terrain.
From there you have to start looking at a little psychology too... the whole list is crazy and its nickname is #LictorShame... mainly as a goof ball idea that people would be ashamed to admit defeat to not only Tyranids but also these tyranid models in particular. So my friend suggested that since I had a few points to spare I might as well toss in some spore mines because it was just one more hilarious unit to add to that psyche out moment when opponents read your list at the table. Then once we got the list on the table we quickly realized that the crazy theme and list was actually gelling together even better then I had expected... I had ideas that it should work, but to see it not only work but really work well gave me a lot of confidence to bring it to 11th company. SO much confidence that I was telling a lot of people that I was going to win the event, and even stealth posted the list on here to kinda put it out there before the event so that when I did win I could point back and say I warned people it was coming.
But the overriding idea of the list is to push the boundaries of competitive 40k. Because I feel that a lot of times there isnt enough belief in some forgotten units... but the right combos and outside the box thinking can create powerful builds that dont strictly come out of analyzing the most points efficient models and highest math hammer based attrition.
So after that little rambling introspection into how and why the list came into existence... hopefully not too boring Ill go back to searching through the thread to try and answer question.
Would you be interested in giving a unit by unit breakdown of why you chose it and how you used it? I think everyone really wants to pick your brain over this list since it's so different from the conventional wisdom that's been established here in this thread. It might be a lot of work, but I'm sure quite a few people would appreciate it.
Well something that you need to know about me is I hate to be boring. Most of my list design process starts with me deciding either a theme or a group of units that I want to use. So for example Beast Star Dark Eldar for me was born out of my desire to win games with close combat and use the special character VECT, now that list paradigm certainly evolved into the hated beast star style list that exemplified everything that people hated about 6th edition... but it was not born out of the desire to create an all encompassing unbeatable list.
So backtrack and forward. Ive had tyranids since 5th edition. Bought built a list with lictors, genestealers, a flyrant and some mawlocs, had a lot of fun. All reserves style stuff. 6th edition comes out and you cant put more than 50% in reserves list is dead for that edition. 7th edition its up to you now what and how much... just have to not get tabled, so Lictor/mawloc stuff can work again. Dark eldar get a new book and my assault stuff sucks and Vect is gone so need to make some changes, for kicks and giggles use death leaper formation with old dark eldar in a tournament go 5-1 and really like what the lictors do. So start thinking about playing bugs again.
So with that in mind the list starts to develop, obviously the theme is once again surprise were here so death leaper formation is in, to augment that push as many other lictors as I can in so we end up with 8. From there 3 mawlocs are an easy addition, I already had 2 and so spent a lot of discussion and introspection whether to add a 3rd or go with something else like a carnifex or tyranofex as I had some in boxes I had won in the intervening years... but the 3rd mawloc was a better fit in every way so conceded to the better choice there. I already had one flyrant built and ready(sexy forgeworld one) so thats easy and again I conceded that in this instance its probably not necessary to try and reinvent the wheel, double flyrant is pretty darn solid and nothing else in the slot is fast enough or fits into the list as well. In some test ideas I had ravenors and shrikes in the fast slot and liked them as light lictors... but that involved buying and painting the models so I looked at my case and said well genestealers are kinda like that too.... plus they are already painted. The bastion is just so useful for the comms and line of sight blocking that its an auto take, because you never know if the tournament you are going to will have enough good terrain.
From there you have to start looking at a little psychology too... the whole list is crazy and its nickname is #LictorShame... mainly as a goof ball idea that people would be ashamed to admit defeat to not only Tyranids but also these tyranid models in particular. So my friend suggested that since I had a few points to spare I might as well toss in some spore mines because it was just one more hilarious unit to add to that psyche out moment when opponents read your list at the table. Then once we got the list on the table we quickly realized that the crazy theme and list was actually gelling together even better then I had expected... I had ideas that it should work, but to see it not only work but really work well gave me a lot of confidence to bring it to 11th company. SO much confidence that I was telling a lot of people that I was going to win the event, and even stealth posted the list on here to kinda put it out there before the event so that when I did win I could point back and say I warned people it was coming.
But the overriding idea of the list is to push the boundaries of competitive 40k. Because I feel that a lot of times there isnt enough belief in some forgotten units... but the right combos and outside the box thinking can create powerful builds that dont strictly come out of analyzing the most points efficient models and highest math hammer based attrition.
So after that little rambling introspection into how and why the list came into existence... hopefully not too boring Ill go back to searching through the thread to try and answer question.
Really appreciate your thoughts and attitude. I feel like the game would benefit from more top-level players experimenting with non-traditional units and play styles. Instead, everyone gets tunnel-vision about what is good and what is not. Exalted!
I will take adaptability over pure power any day of the week. Sure by the numbers something might kill more, however when it comes to having to adapt it doesn't offer as much.
tag8833 wrote: How did the spore mines function as a part of your list?
How many of your Mawloc drops got to benefit from the Lictor's teleport homer?
Do you think that your MSU build would be able to hang with other top tier lists when playing other missions?
A lot of mawloc drops got to benefit from lictors. Sometimes the initial ones if I left any Lictors on the board in deployment, and lots of second drops later in the game. Its very convenient. Also the threat in general is very nice.
The missions werent very different from book or other tournament missions in general. Like I mentioned earlier I didnt really play the progressive part, and most of the time was simply grabbing objectives at the end of the games. The MSU nature might even help it in such events like the BAO that incorporate maelstrom missions as well.
Sometimes, when seasoned tournament winners (not just seasoned players, but seasoned GT winners) speak, it's always a good idea to listen. Players like Hulksmash and OrdoSean (and me!) have the experience as well as out-of-the-box type of thinking that have contributed to their success, especially at the highest levels of tournament play. Now you may not necessarily agree with their advice, but just know that a lot of it isn't theoryhammer. They do have practical experiences.
When Sean first brought up his list here on this thread, no one really responded because no one really had a clue as to what it could do. But knowing the calibre of player that Sean was, I was somewhat intrigued. Now I didn't expect the type of success that he would have with it, but I knew that the Deathleaper Assassin Brood had potential to be good (hence why I've been testing it out). They can't shoot worth a lick and they will fall over in assault to anything greater than MSU units. However, if there's one thing that they do and can do well is to help control the Movement phase. The game nowadays isn't necessarily about who is the best shooter or who can assault the best. Rather, it is all about positioning and the Movement phase, so in that sense, lictors and the formation can still contribute.
Sean, I'd like to thank you for your insight as well as for opening the eyes of the public. If you are coming to the LVO next year, hopefully we get a chance to play each other. If not, then would still be cool to meet you.
I will be at LVO in february for sure. Bought a ticket in september. My friend Alex won last year and said it was well worth the trip so I made sure to pencil it into my schedule.
Would you be interested in giving a unit by unit breakdown of why you chose it and how you used it? I think everyone really wants to pick your brain over this list since it's so different from the conventional wisdom that's been established here in this thread. It might be a lot of work, but I'm sure quite a few people would appreciate it.
Well something that you need to know about me is I hate to be boring. Most of my list design process starts with me deciding either a theme or a group of units that I want to use. So for example Beast Star Dark Eldar for me was born out of my desire to win games with close combat and use the special character VECT, now that list paradigm certainly evolved into the hated beast star style list that exemplified everything that people hated about 6th edition... but it was not born out of the desire to create an all encompassing unbeatable list.
So backtrack and forward. Ive had tyranids since 5th edition. Bought built a list with lictors, genestealers, a flyrant and some mawlocs, had a lot of fun. All reserves style stuff. 6th edition comes out and you cant put more than 50% in reserves list is dead for that edition. 7th edition its up to you now what and how much... just have to not get tabled, so Lictor/mawloc stuff can work again. Dark eldar get a new book and my assault stuff sucks and Vect is gone so need to make some changes, for kicks and giggles use death leaper formation with old dark eldar in a tournament go 5-1 and really like what the lictors do. So start thinking about playing bugs again.
So with that in mind the list starts to develop, obviously the theme is once again surprise were here so death leaper formation is in, to augment that push as many other lictors as I can in so we end up with 8. From there 3 mawlocs are an easy addition, I already had 2 and so spent a lot of discussion and introspection whether to add a 3rd or go with something else like a carnifex or tyranofex as I had some in boxes I had won in the intervening years... but the 3rd mawloc was a better fit in every way so conceded to the better choice there. I already had one flyrant built and ready(sexy forgeworld one) so thats easy and again I conceded that in this instance its probably not necessary to try and reinvent the wheel, double flyrant is pretty darn solid and nothing else in the slot is fast enough or fits into the list as well. In some test ideas I had ravenors and shrikes in the fast slot and liked them as light lictors... but that involved buying and painting the models so I looked at my case and said well genestealers are kinda like that too.... plus they are already painted. The bastion is just so useful for the comms and line of sight blocking that its an auto take, because you never know if the tournament you are going to will have enough good terrain.
From there you have to start looking at a little psychology too... the whole list is crazy and its nickname is #LictorShame... mainly as a goof ball idea that people would be ashamed to admit defeat to not only Tyranids but also these tyranid models in particular. So my friend suggested that since I had a few points to spare I might as well toss in some spore mines because it was just one more hilarious unit to add to that psyche out moment when opponents read your list at the table. Then once we got the list on the table we quickly realized that the crazy theme and list was actually gelling together even better then I had expected... I had ideas that it should work, but to see it not only work but really work well gave me a lot of confidence to bring it to 11th company. SO much confidence that I was telling a lot of people that I was going to win the event, and even stealth posted the list on here to kinda put it out there before the event so that when I did win I could point back and say I warned people it was coming.
But the overriding idea of the list is to push the boundaries of competitive 40k. Because I feel that a lot of times there isnt enough belief in some forgotten units... but the right combos and outside the box thinking can create powerful builds that dont strictly come out of analyzing the most points efficient models and highest math hammer based attrition.
So after that little rambling introspection into how and why the list came into existence... hopefully not too boring Ill go back to searching through the thread to try and answer question.
congrats and thanks for posting the origins of this beast!
These pics are pre-light box, I've got one arriving tomorrow and will hopefully get some more accurate photos, my camera is light finicky.
This is pretty sic, Iechine. You should get 1 for yourself.
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
There isn't much here for me to add that hasn't already been said, but I will add my comments as well.
1. This list wouldn't be valid in many competitive metas, as it uses 3 sources when the limit for most tourneys are 2. But if you aren't planning on running it for tournaments, then that's fine.
2. While flyrants are probably the best unit in our dex, they don't really take advantage of the lictors well (or should I say the lictors don't really benefit them all that much). You want something that can benefit from the lictors. Precision dropping spores are ok, but they really aren't all that necessarily in this case. Dima can be a little off, as can the zoans because the range of their shooting can offset their deviation from landing. The unit that complements lictors best IMO are the mawlocs. They are cheap so you can go full MSU and they really benefit from using lictors as homing beacons.
3. As others have said, you need a way to manipulate reserves.
My suggestion would be to drop 1 flyrant to keep it to 2-detachments so you can use it both in tournament and casual play. Then get a bastion + comms and mawloc to round out the list. If you need more points, you can also drop 1 unit of rippers.
I think on lists where you are planning on reserving stuff, but still opening with units on the field (DLAB) that its an excellent opportunity to take a Swarmlord instead of the Bastion.
For 20 pts more than a Flyrant + Bastion w/Comms, you can get a Swarmlord + Pod, giving you practically the same chance to reserve rolls, and a Swarmlord deepstriking in to wreck face.
And this is coming from me, the guy who hasn't had anything positive to say about Swarmlord to date. He seems really good in these lists.
SHUPPET wrote: I think on lists where you are planning on reserving stuff, but still opening with units on the field (DLAB) that its an excellent opportunity to take a Swarmlord instead of the Bastion.
For 20 pts more than a Flyrant + Bastion w/Comms, you can get a Swarmlord + Pod, giving you practically the same chance to reserve rolls, and a Swarmlord deepstriking in to wreck face.
And this is coming from me, the guy who hasn't had anything positive to say about Swarmlord to date. He seems really good in these lists.
If you don't mind giving up a flyrant, then sure, you can go for Swarmy.
But personally, I think you need the 2nd flyrant and his mobility to make the list work, more so than you need the Swarmlord in your opponent's backfield. The problem arises when you play against mechdar, DE, biker armies, necrons, Farsight Enclaves and any army with the mobility to get away form Swarmy and still kite him to death with their shooting.
Just don't run more than 2 or 3 Winged Dakka'rants, and you are a sportsman! 
)
So a big Brood of Gaunts is likely to be a very good solution. 
Mawlocs like Paladins as well, they are spicy, yet meaty. 
This keeps your force mostly intact vs Alpha strike forces. After the first turn, it is not uncommon for the bastion to be abandoned...it still can "claim" an objective just by sitting. 
Also I would Outflank the Tervign, so I am putting Synapse into the backfield. 
Yeah, likely the meds... 
I'm not really a fan of the Dimachaeron but that color scheme looks pretty damn good on it.
Also the threat in general is very nice.