Thats all very true - just an option and highly dependant on the other units in your build I'd say. Dropodding Dakkafex for example might make up for some of those mobility issues. I think it's an option to consider, because the damage output of the Swarmy is pretty amazing and in a build with plenty of galss cannons like lictors and Dakkafex and Dima, he could really work
These pics are pre-light box, I've got one arriving tomorrow and will hopefully get some more accurate photos, my camera is light finicky.
This is pretty sic, Iechine. You should get 1 for yourself.
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
There isn't much here for me to add that hasn't already been said, but I will add my comments as well.
1. This list wouldn't be valid in many competitive metas, as it uses 3 sources when the limit for most tourneys are 2. But if you aren't planning on running it for tournaments, then that's fine.
2. While flyrants are probably the best unit in our dex, they don't really take advantage of the lictors well (or should I say the lictors don't really benefit them all that much). You want something that can benefit from the lictors. Precision dropping spores are ok, but they really aren't all that necessarily in this case. Dima can be a little off, as can the zoans because the range of their shooting can offset their deviation from landing. The unit that complements lictors best IMO are the mawlocs. They are cheap so you can go full MSU and they really benefit from using lictors as homing beacons.
3. As others have said, you need a way to manipulate reserves.
My suggestion would be to drop 1 flyrant to keep it to 2-detachments so you can use it both in tournament and casual play. Then get a bastion + comms and mawloc to round out the list. If you need more points, you can also drop 1 unit of rippers.
Very fair comments, I think i'll drop the third tyrant and rippers and look to fit two Mawlocs + a bastion in somewhere. Merci.
Question: does nobody think that the "spore pod" shooting rules are weird? Every gun shoots at the closest target but their no rules saying there has to be line of sight from the gun to the target. So if you drop a pod in front of the enemies army its still possible to shoot the pods guns at the back even when theirs no direct line of sight from the gun? Am I missing sum thing?
SHUPPET wrote: I think on lists where you are planning on reserving stuff, but still opening with units on the field (DLAB) that its an excellent opportunity to take a Swarmlord instead of the Bastion.
For 20 pts more than a Flyrant + Bastion w/Comms, you can get a Swarmlord + Pod, giving you practically the same chance to reserve rolls, and a Swarmlord deepstriking in to wreck face.
And this is coming from me, the guy who hasn't had anything positive to say about Swarmlord to date. He seems really good in these lists.
I think there is great potential for an aggressive deep strike Swarmlord list. Tyrannocytes give us quite a toolbox now when added to the existing high quality deep strikers/alternative deployers we can use.
- The Tervigon/Tyrannocyte combination is an amazing, bringing an MC brick (with Crushing Claws parking lots cannot ignore it), a Thorax swarm of some sort (Shreddershard to dig something out of cover?), Termagants capturing an objective 12+D6" from where you land and the spore itself as a mobile gun turret/cover save. That's a lot of impact on the board on the turn it lands.
- Mawlocs love the +1 to Reserves, and serve as a great "dig the enemy out of cover" model (plus they are so cheap).
- Exocrines also love their Tyrannocytes; deep striking completely mitigates the short range of their cannon.
- The tried and tested 20 Devilgaunts in a spore work wonders, but if you're going with a Troops Tervigon it might be better to simply bite the bullet, take 30 and Outflank them with a Hive Commander Tyrant? Outflanking is still great.
- Malanthropes inside Tyrannocytes get you your Shrouding, even up close and personal with your enemy (and their resilience gives them the edge of Venomthropes, especially when you're surrounded by enemies). You're also a lot closer to enemy units to make a play for Prey Adaptation.
- Zoanthropes/Neurothropes are an expensive option (400 points for 6 and the spore) in a Tyrannocyte, but you can give them Preferred Enemy (thanks Swarmlord) to compensate for the to-hit roll a little. Failing that, for anti-tank you could also play three Shockcannon Hive Guard (cheaper at 255 including the spore), giving you three Haywire blasts on that parking lot.
- The Swarmlord itself is awesome at counter-assault (opponents might be tempted to ignore it on the turn it lands after you unleash all of your firepower and the Swarmlord does "nothing"), particularly when your ranged units are mediocre in assault themselves.
Maybe throw something together like this?
Swarmlord + Tyrannocyte (360)
Flyrant, Hive Commander, double Devourer and Egrubs (260)
That comes to 2000 exactly, gives you a Venom/Biovore/Tyrant (with 2+ Jink) on the board on turn 1 to avoid tabling (and to hold your home objectives) and then on turn 2 puts a whole lot of fun on the board. It is lacking in anti-air power but with a list like this I'm not sure what I would add in for that except Crones...
It also gives you 5 Tyrannocytes and some extremely nasty close-ranged firepower right where you need it.
I think you've nailed a lot of it. I think outflanking is probably better for 30 devilgants. In for a penny in for a pound with those guys imo.
However I don't think its safe to call Tervigons amazing. They are still overpriced, and why would anyone ever want to ignore it? It's an excellent unit to shoot at, every shot that goes their way chips off a lot of points in comparison to most the rest of our MCs, they also bring other units down with them, and the quicker they die the better the pay off for your opponent because less Gant spawns. Crushing Claws just makes this even worse. Don't feel obligated to take one of these just because you choose to go 30 gants.
Malanthropes in a pod sounds good on paper, but I feel like the investment just won't pay off, not being able to outrange any guns or hide out of LoS, early game as well while they still have a large chunk of their army, I just feel like its a flawed concept for 150 pts.
I also wonder about the worth of using a pod on an Exocrine who has quite decent range in comparison the rest of our army anyway, but I suppose it secures that BS4 from the get go. Still seems kinda iffy to me.
This is pretty sic, Iechine. You should get 1 for yourself.
I thought about it. I know he's made more awesome now with drop pods, but I've struggled to find a spot for him in my list. It doesnt help that I personally really dislike the model.
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
What role does the malanthrope play in this list aside from providing turn 1 shrouded? most of your army is highly mobile / deep striking so I don't feel you would get much additional benefit from using him compared to a venom in a box. That would free up 40 points as well. Thoughts?
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
What role does the malanthrope play in this list aside from providing turn 1 shrouded? most of your army is highly mobile / deep striking so I don't feel you would get much additional benefit from using him compared to a venom in a box. That would free up 40 points as well. Thoughts?
I suppose you are right, I just love the model so much.
SHUPPET wrote: I think on lists where you are planning on reserving stuff, but still opening with units on the field (DLAB) that its an excellent opportunity to take a Swarmlord instead of the Bastion.
For 20 pts more than a Flyrant + Bastion w/Comms, you can get a Swarmlord + Pod, giving you practically the same chance to reserve rolls, and a Swarmlord deepstriking in to wreck face.
And this is coming from me, the guy who hasn't had anything positive to say about Swarmlord to date. He seems really good in these lists.
The problem is Swarmy can't do nearly as much damage as a flyrant. He also has the Dimacharon problem. He is too good in close combat to stay safe there. And then there is the problem of him being pretty easy to kill.
The Tyrant Guard are so important to Swarmlord's effectiveness.
1) If you give one Crushing claws now Swarmlord's squad is threatening to vehicles
2) They add extra attacks in case Swarmlord runs into something with a good invul.
3) *Most Important* They allow him to multi-assault. By grabbing 2 squads he can avoid overrunning one, and stay safely locked in combat for a turn.
4) They add extra wounds, and in a way that is easy to do wound allocation shenanigance.
Swarmlord would be a good option for Pod heavy lists, but I would probably take him in another CAD, it's hard to pass up two Flyrants in favour of a CC monster that either runs up as fast as possible with ablative wounds, or drops in and is vulnerable to enemy fire.
ductvader wrote: To be honest...A Prime in a pod can be kitted to Tyrant Combat ability for a similar cost...and can take a big old bodyguard.
Only real downside...and its a sizable one...no AP2 outside of rends.
A prime in a pod with lw/bs is 220, an HT with wings and lw/bs is 220 and has the benefit of ML2, better combat stats, harder to kill and can jink for a 4+ cover save at any time
Prime has the upside of being able to attach to units and can take flesh hooks, that's about it I think
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Dimachaeron would come out top as it's hitting most things on 3+ like swarm lord and Tyrants but it's attacks outwheigh the others
Tyrant:4(5)
Swarmlord:4(5)
Dimachaeron:5(6) +D3 when outnumbered.
yeah.. I don't think we need an excel statistical sheet to show which one is better...
Dima has more wounds, is cheaper, is WS8, has more attacks and is S8 on the charge with sickle claws.
Good point, the HT has all the intangibles which can't be measured in CC I guess - fearless, 4+ jink, ML2 and is far more mobile with wings...
fearless is quite a big downside actually that is worth noting! it means you need something with synapse in range to prevent it being run down in the off chance it loses CC.
So on an unrelated note, how would this list far? completely ignoring new releases;
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
I will run the numbers for you, if you can tell me some likely targets (around 10). For instance:
10 Tactical Marines
Wraith Knight
Dread Knight
Imperial Knight
20 Ork Boyz
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Dimachaeron would come out top as it's hitting most things on 3+ like swarm lord and Tyrants but it's attacks outwheigh the others
Tyrant:4(5)
Swarmlord:4(5)
Dimachaeron:5(6) +D3 when outnumbered.
yeah.. I don't think we need an excel statistical sheet to show which one is better...
Dima has more wounds, is cheaper, is WS8, has more attacks and is S8 on the charge with sickle claws.
Good point, the HT has all the intangibles which can't be measured in CC I guess - fearless, 4+ jink, ML2 and is far more mobile with wings...
fearless is quite a big downside actually that is worth noting! it means you need something with synapse in range to prevent it being run down in the off chance it loses CC.
So on an unrelated note, how would this list far? completely ignoring new releases;
6 FMC with demon summoning support.
10 WC+D6 a turn
I may be mistaken, but this list could be pretty nasty, no?
Believe it or not, the Malanthrope-in-a-box doesn't offer you as much as you would think in a list like this. You don't get the anti-alpha strike protection, but giving it up allows you to make a list like this:
2 Flyrants w/guns and Grubs
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Lord of Change (ML3), exalted
11 Pink Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince w/Mark of Tzentch, Daemonic Flight, ML3
I don't recall if this was the same list that Hulksmash posted or my own variant on it (all kudos to him for the idea in any case) but this gives you 16 + d6 warp charge and a screamer unit that can really benefit. I'd probably have the prince roll twice on telepathy to try and get invis/shrouding and then once on demonology.
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
I will run the numbers for you, if you can tell me some likely targets (around 10). For instance:
10 Tactical Marines
Wraith Knight
Dread Knight
Imperial Knight
20 Ork Boyz
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Dimachaeron would come out top as it's hitting most things on 3+ like swarm lord and Tyrants but it's attacks outwheigh the others
Tyrant:4(5)
Swarmlord:4(5)
Dimachaeron:5(6) +D3 when outnumbered.
yeah.. I don't think we need an excel statistical sheet to show which one is better...
Dima has more wounds, is cheaper, is WS8, has more attacks and is S8 on the charge with sickle claws.
Good point, the HT has all the intangibles which can't be measured in CC I guess - fearless, 4+ jink, ML2 and is far more mobile with wings...
fearless is quite a big downside actually that is worth noting! it means you need something with synapse in range to prevent it being run down in the off chance it loses CC.
So on an unrelated note, how would this list far? completely ignoring new releases;
6 FMC with demon summoning support.
10 WC+D6 a turn
I may be mistaken, but this list could be pretty nasty, no?
Believe it or not, the Malanthrope-in-a-box doesn't offer you as much as you would think in a list like this. You don't get the anti-alpha strike protection, but giving it up allows you to make a list like this:
2 Flyrants w/guns and Grubs
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Lord of Change (ML3), exalted
11 Pink Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince w/Mark of Tzentch, Daemonic Flight, ML3
I don't recall if this was the same list that Hulksmash posted or my own variant on it (all kudos to him for the idea in any case) but this gives you 16 + d6 warp charge and a screamer unit that can really benefit. I'd probably have the prince roll twice on telepathy to try and get invis/shrouding and then once on demonology.
I would disagree with you there, well placed Malan/bastion and the 4 Nid FMC's will Garuntee 2+ jink saves for at least two turns for all 4 and are key to denial alpha strikes.
I agree 11 horrors would make more sense and screamers would be awesome but you are removing the two mawlocs as well which I would not want to do as they provide ranged ap2 ignores cover.
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Swarmlord:4(5)
Swarmlord has 2 pairs of CCW's. So he actually has 5 attacks base, and 6 on the charge. Instant Death on every wound. He is also WS9 instead of 8, and has a 4++, so he is actually more survivable in most close combats that go longer than 1 round. If he weren't 1.5 times the cost of the Dimacharon, he would be a better choice by far.
Even with the cost differential, his support ability is worth it. The main reason people who are willing to take a Dimacharon don't take Swarmlord is that it means 1 fewer flyrants.
A benefit for Melee Tyrants/Swarmlord is that they can roll for Psychic Powers and if they so happen to get either Paroxysm/Catalyst/The Horror, they can greatly increase their survivability if they are manifested.
Winged Tyrants can also jink if need be
They also don't need to test for Fear, unlike the Dimachaeron outside Synapse (a minor point since Flyrants and Dimachaerons are usually in the same vicinity, but there is nothing as demoralizing than rolling 11 when you charge a Wraithknight).
Demon Prince
Mark of Tzeentch
armour
flight
Exalted reward
ML2
6 FMC with demon summoning support.
10 WC+D6 a turn
I may be mistaken, but this list could be pretty nasty, no?
My suggestions:
1. You really don't need a malanthrope in this case. I'd downgrade him to just a venomthrope or just dump him altogether.
2. Here is where you can consider zoans for psychic support.
3. If you can, I'd upgrade your DP to Level 3. Also, try to raise your horrors to a unit of 11 for +1 Warp Charge.
Malan provides synapse in the DZ, is fearless and can wonder out of the bastion should it be destroyed to claim objectives should it need to.
A venom does none of these things/ is too vulnerable.
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
I will run the numbers for you, if you can tell me some likely targets (around 10). For instance:
10 Tactical Marines
Wraith Knight
Dread Knight
Imperial Knight
20 Ork Boyz
Please do Nurgle Bikes and TWC!
I will if you give me Toughness, Armor Save, Invul, and FNP expectations. TWC can choose a SS or not, and I don't know Nurgle Bikes off the top of my head.
So for the first time in a while I dusted off the ol' bugs for a fisticuff with some astartes. I thought this would be the place to comment on my tactics, newfound or otherwise and also to ask advice...
I had great luck with upgraded hormogaunts against hammernators, drown the unit in wounds and saves and kept it from fighting anything bigger. My tervigons provided me a significantly higher output of gaunts than I was expecting, enough to hold an objective with three units of about 12-18 of them of them. I didn't blow out any uterus until turn 3.
My Zoops took out a raider's weapons and immobilized one, making it a really big roadblock.
I had a lot of luck with cover saves generated by my venom thropes and I am really looking forward to the new venom creatures.
Issues I saw - my carnifexes kitted for CC underperformed in most cases, CC and ST appeared effective v. vehicles and fortifications, but they were easily punched out by AP3 weaponry. I tried to bubble wrap with termagants, but this was not particularly effective for me this game.
My flying tyrant got grounded and destroyed in a single shooting phase... seriously.
A few questions now.
How exactly does SITW work with regard to astartes? I was told that having "stubborn" prevents leadership reduction, similarly, I was told ATSKNF prevents my SITW from affecting their units. Of the same vein, how exactly do powers like horror and scream work if astartes and GK psykers cannot be reduced in leadership against the power?
I am happy with my dakkafexes, the CC fexes seem to be less effective. How do I make these guys earn their points back better?
I have not yet picked up any of the newly added monsters (crone, exocrine, hentai monster,) what do you guys suggest with regard to these creatures? Is it worth it or shall I just wait for the newer big ones coming out this upcoming release?
So for the first time in a while I dusted off the ol' bugs for a fisticuff with some astartes. I thought this would be the place to comment on my tactics, newfound or otherwise and also to ask advice...
I had great luck with upgraded hormogaunts against hammernators, drown the unit in wounds and saves and kept it from fighting anything bigger. My tervigons provided me a significantly higher output of gaunts than I was expecting, enough to hold an objective with three units of about 12-18 of them of them. I didn't blow out any uterus until turn 3.
My Zoops took out a raider's weapons and immobilized one, making it a really big roadblock.
I had a lot of luck with cover saves generated by my venom thropes and I am really looking forward to the new venom creatures.
Issues I saw - my carnifexes kitted for CC underperformed in most cases, CC and ST appeared effective v. vehicles and fortifications, but they were easily punched out by AP3 weaponry. I tried to bubble wrap with termagants, but this was not particularly effective for me this game.
My flying tyrant got grounded and destroyed in a single shooting phase... seriously.
A few questions now.
How exactly does SITW work with regard to astartes? I was told that having "stubborn" prevents leadership reduction, similarly, I was told ATSKNF prevents my SITW from affecting their units. Of the same vein, how exactly do powers like horror and scream work if astartes and GK psykers cannot be reduced in leadership against the power?
I am happy with my dakkafexes, the CC fexes seem to be less effective. How do I make these guys earn their points back better?
I have not yet picked up any of the newly added monsters (crone, exocrine, hentai monster,) what do you guys suggest with regard to these creatures? Is it worth it or shall I just wait for the newer big ones coming out this upcoming release?
Thanks and I look forward to your responses.
Welcome back to the Hive Mind.
Shooting > assault. Always give your MC's TL-devourers if you can (especially on the flyrants). They will almost always out-perform their CC brethen.
Hormagants aren't really that cost effective, especially now since they can't get Prefered Enemy easily (from Old Adversary or Swarmie) and now that their Poisoned attacks do not get the re-rolls to wound against marines or other T4 guys. Better to just go for gargoyles if you can.
Zoans aren't really reliable shooters. Unless you take a lot of zoans (the new zoans coming out), look at the shooting as a bonus. They are used nowadays more for cheap Synapse and contributing warp charge to your warp dice pool. Don't expect the type of performance that you got with your zoey on a regular basis.
Venomthropes, while good, are outclassed by the newer Forgeworld unit, the Malanthrope. If your group don't mind using Forgeworld units, check out the malanthrope.
SITW has been nerfed greatly. It affects LD only of psychic units/models but most psychic powers aren't cast based off of LD (only Perils is based off of LD). Thus, SITW won't do much unless an enemy psyker perils while in range of your SITW unit.
That is correct. Stubborn will negate SITW, though ATSKNF does not. ATSKNF just lets the unit auto-regroup and perform normal actions on the same turn. Horror will affect ATSKNF normally, though it won't reduce the LD of Stubborn units. Scream ignores either as it doesn't alter the LD of the target at all.
With dakkafexes, advance, shoot and threaten when in assault range. That's all you need to do. They may or may not make their points back. However, they will benefit the army because they cannot be ignored and will draw a lot of enemy fire, thus giving the rest of your army time to either get close or to kill more stuff.
Of all the "big" monsters, the ones that you should consider the most are the dakkafex and the mawloc. Those are by far the 2 best big monsters. Hive crones are ok and worth considering if you play in a meta with lots of flyers or if you want to run a Tyranid flyer list. The new Forgeworld Dimachaeron is also worth a look at because he is the nastiest Tyranid CC beast that we've got. Finally, what will be really, REALLY popular will be the new Tyrannocytes, or Tyranid drop pods, that will be coming out soon.
resipsa wrote: My flying tyrant got grounded and destroyed in a single shooting phase... seriously.
Note that Grounding tests are done at the end of the shooting phase in 7th edition if the FMC suffered one or more unsaved wounds. No more grounding test for each time a unit hit it.
How exactly does SITW work with regard to astartes? I was told that having "stubborn" prevents leadership reduction, similarly, I was told ATSKNF prevents my SITW from affecting their units. Of the same vein, how exactly do powers like horror and scream work if astartes and GK psykers cannot be reduced in leadership against the power?
Stubborn only works for Morale and Pinning checks, so it has no effect on powers like Horror and Scream. Similarly, ATSKNF also does absolutely nothing to prevent the reduced leadership of Astartes Psykers, it only works against Fear test, Sweeping Advances and regrouping.
Edit: Apologies - The Horror forces a Pinning test, so Stubborn does work against that.
hive tyrants have 4 attacks basic.
4(5 ) +1 for 2 sets of arms. just like Swarmlord.
Can someone please confirm (don't have my codex with me)? I am 99% sure that they are now base 3, +1 for 2 cc weapons. But if you swap out those weapons for devourers, they go back down to 3 attacks.
hive tyrants have 4 attacks basic.
4(5 ) +1 for 2 sets of arms. just like Swarmlord.
Can someone please confirm (don't have my codex with me)? I am 99% sure that they are now base 3, +1 for 2 cc weapons. But if you swap out those weapons for devourers, they go back down to 3 attacks.
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Here we are. I did Swarmlord, Dimacharon, Toxicrine, and Tyranid Prime.
I am assuming the Tyranid Prime has BS+LW, TS, AG. I am using the Dimacharon's Sickle Claws in all cases, and assume he has +1 S on the charge.
The 1st number is damage on the charge, and the 2nd is damage in subsequent turns.
Unsaved Wounds vs 10 Tactical Marines 3.33 2.78 Swarmlord 5.00 4.44 Dimacharon 3.89 2.96 Tyranid prime 3.40 2.92 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs Wraith Knight (factoring in ID) 4.67 3.89 Swarmlord 6.22 4.67 Dimacharon 5.33 4.44 Tyranid prime 5.83 5.00 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs Dread Knight (factoring in ID) 5.33 4.44 Swarmlord 6.74 5.33 Dimacharon 0.67 0.65 Tyranid prime 3.11 3.00 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs 20 Ork Boyz and a Pain Boy (FNP 5+) 3.33 2.78 Swarmlord 4.33 3.85 Dimacharon 3.02 2.30 Tyranid prime 2.50 2.14 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs 4 Terminators 2.22 1.85 Swarmlord 3.33 2.96 Dimacharon 0.65 0.49 Tyranid prime 2.27 1.94 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs 3 TH+SSTWC (factoring in ID) 1.78 1.48 Swarmlord 2.67 2.07 Dimacharon 1.48 1.20 Tyranid prime 1.17 1.00 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs 3 Nurgle Bikes 2.00 1.67 Swarmlord 4.00 2.67 Dimacharon 2.00 1.67 Tyranid prime 2.92 2.50 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs a Riptide (factoring in ID) 6.67 5.56 Swarmlord 8.30 6.67 Dimacharon 0.78 0.65 Tyranid prime 4.67 4.00 Toxicrine
So basically the Dimacharon does the most damage, followed by Swarmlord. The Tyranid Prime vastly underperformed my expectations, but that's why we run these numbers. The Swarmlord's higher WS and Invul, and ability to challenge things out gives him a higher survivability, but he doesn't put out the level of damage of the Dimacharon. I always forget that the Dimacharon has Rampage. I so rarely get off a charge on a group of anything that he would need D3 extra attacks against.
ETA. doh! I initially ran the Dimacharon with a D6 bonus to attacks for Rampage. I have corrected it.
I have a few questions for the returning player. Firstly, I don't have the money/don't feel like shelling out the money for Forgeworld models. So a Malanthrope and Dimecheron are off-limits for me (for now). With this said, what is a good, competitive Tyranid list if I don't feel like using the (newly) popular Mawloc + Lictor + Deathleaper build? Are Tervigons outdated now? Should I bother with Tyrannocytes if I'm not using the Mawloc + Lictor + Deathleaper build? I was thinking of using something utilizing Dakkafexes, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes, 2x Flyrant (or 1x Flyrant and 1x Swarmlord + pod), Gargoyles, Gaunts, Biovores, Exocrines, and Warriors (Living Artillery Formation).
Now, I also own a Hive Crone and a Tervigon/Tyrannofex, but I assume both are outdated with 7th Edition. I haven't heard much talk about the Tervigon since 7th, and the same goes for the Hive Crone outside of Skyblight Swarm (which I would happily run, if not for me having to buy two more Hive Crone/Harpy boxes, and paint both of them....). Are these units that I've listed above good enough for a semi-competitive list? I just don't want to get tabled against other semi-competitive lists. I don't really plan on facing a lot of Wave Serpent spam, TauDar, or playing FLGS tournaments anytime soon. But I will be playing against min-maxed Chaos Space Marines/Daemons lists, Space Marine/Space Wolves lists, Space Marine/Blood Angels/Dark Angels lists, and some Necrons.
hive tyrants have 4 attacks basic.
4(5 ) +1 for 2 sets of arms. just like Swarmlord.
Can someone please confirm (don't have my codex with me)? I am 99% sure that they are now base 3, +1 for 2 cc weapons. But if you swap out those weapons for devourers, they go back down to 3 attacks.
hive tyrants have 4 attacks basic.
4(5 ) +1 for 2 sets of arms. just like Swarmlord.
Can someone please confirm (don't have my codex with me)? I am 99% sure that they are now base 3, +1 for 2 cc weapons. But if you swap out those weapons for devourers, they go back down to 3 attacks.
I have a few questions for the returning player. Firstly, I don't have the money/don't feel like shelling out the money for Forgeworld models. So a Malanthrope and Dimecheron are off-limits for me (for now). With this said, what is a good, competitive Tyranid list if I don't feel like using the (newly) popular Mawloc + Lictor + Deathleaper build? Are Tervigons outdated now? Should I bother with Tyrannocytes if I'm not using the Mawloc + Lictor + Deathleaper build? I was thinking of using something utilizing Dakkafexes, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes, 2x Flyrant (or 1x Flyrant and 1x Swarmlord + pod), Gargoyles, Gaunts, Biovores, Exocrines, and Warriors (Living Artillery Formation).
Now, I also own a Hive Crone and a Tervigon/Tyrannofex, but I assume both are outdated with 7th Edition. I haven't heard much talk about the Tervigon since 7th, and the same goes for the Hive Crone outside of Skyblight Swarm (which I would happily run, if not for me having to buy two more Hive Crone/Harpy boxes, and paint both of them....). Are these units that I've listed above good enough for a semi-competitive list? I just don't want to get tabled against other semi-competitive lists. I don't really plan on facing a lot of Wave Serpent spam, TauDar, or playing FLGS tournaments anytime soon. But I will be playing against min-maxed Chaos Space Marines/Daemons lists, Space Marine/Space Wolves lists, Space Marine/Blood Angels/Dark Angels lists, and some Necrons.
Any advice would be appreciated.
You can build a perfectly good list with that group of figs. Tervigon is a little over priced, so it's not as popular these days. But it can still work just fine. CC Carnifexen do kinda under perform But Podding them in might help with that.
I've posted a list or two a long while ago (in lists) that you may be able to search out... I think the last one was "Out of the Darkness"..... I still use Hormagaunts all the time, but I've never advocated adding in Glands (or maybe not for a very long time anyway. )
Iechine wrote: 5.83 5.00 Toxicrine vs a Wraithknight? Isnt he hitting on 4+'s to begin with?
yeah and he only has 6 attacks so thats only 2.5 wounds...
But on 6's he does 6 wounds. That is why I made a point of highlighting that ID was included.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Terror from the Deep wrote: Did you include HOW as well? That would skew the numbers even more against the prime
No HOW included. Definitely something the Prime can't do. On the other hand. Prime vs Dimacharon and Prime wins 50% of the time. If the prime has 6-7 gants with him, he wins every time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AdeptSister wrote: Thanks! Is toxic miasma taken into account with the Toxicrene? It is doing pretty decently for its cost.
No Toxic Miasma either. That one is so.... Random that it is hard to quantify and calculate. Plus it is 1 time use.
I have a few questions for the returning player. Firstly, I don't have the money/don't feel like shelling out the money for Forgeworld models. So a Malanthrope and Dimecheron are off-limits for me (for now). With this said, what is a good, competitive Tyranid list if I don't feel like using the (newly) popular Mawloc + Lictor + Deathleaper build? Are Tervigons outdated now? Should I bother with Tyrannocytes if I'm not using the Mawloc + Lictor + Deathleaper build? I was thinking of using something utilizing Dakkafexes, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes, 2x Flyrant (or 1x Flyrant and 1x Swarmlord + pod), Gargoyles, Gaunts, Biovores, Exocrines, and Warriors (Living Artillery Formation).
Now, I also own a Hive Crone and a Tervigon/Tyrannofex, but I assume both are outdated with 7th Edition. I haven't heard much talk about the Tervigon since 7th, and the same goes for the Hive Crone outside of Skyblight Swarm (which I would happily run, if not for me having to buy two more Hive Crone/Harpy boxes, and paint both of them....). Are these units that I've listed above good enough for a semi-competitive list? I just don't want to get tabled against other semi-competitive lists. I don't really plan on facing a lot of Wave Serpent spam, TauDar, or playing FLGS tournaments anytime soon. But I will be playing against min-maxed Chaos Space Marines/Daemons lists, Space Marine/Space Wolves lists, Space Marine/Blood Angels/Dark Angels lists, and some Necrons.
I have a few questions for the returning player. Firstly, I don't have the money/don't feel like shelling out the money for Forgeworld models. So a Malanthrope and Dimecheron are off-limits for me (for now). With this said, what is a good, competitive Tyranid list if I don't feel like using the (newly) popular Mawloc + Lictor + Deathleaper build? Are Tervigons outdated now? Should I bother with Tyrannocytes if I'm not using the Mawloc + Lictor + Deathleaper build? I was thinking of using something utilizing Dakkafexes, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes, 2x Flyrant (or 1x Flyrant and 1x Swarmlord + pod), Gargoyles, Gaunts, Biovores, Exocrines, and Warriors (Living Artillery Formation).
Now, I also own a Hive Crone and a Tervigon/Tyrannofex, but I assume both are outdated with 7th Edition. I haven't heard much talk about the Tervigon since 7th, and the same goes for the Hive Crone outside of Skyblight Swarm (which I would happily run, if not for me having to buy two more Hive Crone/Harpy boxes, and paint both of them....). Are these units that I've listed above good enough for a semi-competitive list? I just don't want to get tabled against other semi-competitive lists. I don't really plan on facing a lot of Wave Serpent spam, TauDar, or playing FLGS tournaments anytime soon. But I will be playing against min-maxed Chaos Space Marines/Daemons lists, Space Marine/Space Wolves lists, Space Marine/Blood Angels/Dark Angels lists, and some Necrons.
Heavy: Twin Dakkafexen (TL: Brian Leeches) 300
Heavy: as above Dakkafexen Brood 300
Put Hive Commander on a Dakka'rant (Outflank the Tervigon) and that runs around 1710 or so... It should win more often than it loses.
That sounds about right. I could also sub one of the twin Dakkafex broods for Biovores if I'm hurting for points. I find they work pretty well. Either that, or take Living Artillery. The troops list seems pretty damn solid, and is basically what I used to run. Is the Tervigon still worth it, though? That's 200 points of extra things I can add.
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Here we are.
I did Swarmlord, Dimacharon, Toxicrine, and Tyranid Prime.
I am assuming the Tyranid Prime has BS+LW, TS, AG. I am using the Dimacharon's Sickle Claws in all cases, and assume he has +1 S on the charge.
The 1st number is damage on the charge, and the 2nd is damage in subsequent turns.
Unsaved Wounds vs 10 Tactical Marines 3.33 2.78 Swarmlord
5.00 4.44 Dimacharon
3.89 2.96 Tyranid prime
3.40 2.92 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs Wraith Knight (factoring in ID) 4.67 3.89 Swarmlord
6.22 4.67 Dimacharon
5.33 4.44 Tyranid prime
5.83 5.00 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs Dread Knight (factoring in ID) 5.33 4.44 Swarmlord
6.74 5.33 Dimacharon
0.67 0.65 Tyranid prime
3.11 3.00 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs 20 Ork Boyz and a Pain Boy (FNP 5+) 3.33 2.78 Swarmlord
4.33 3.85 Dimacharon
3.02 2.30 Tyranid prime
2.50 2.14 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs 4 Terminators 2.22 1.85 Swarmlord
3.33 2.96 Dimacharon
0.65 0.49 Tyranid prime
2.27 1.94 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs 3 TH+SSTWC (factoring in ID) 1.78 1.48 Swarmlord
2.67 2.07 Dimacharon
1.48 1.20 Tyranid prime
1.17 1.00 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs 3 Nurgle Bikes 2.00 1.67 Swarmlord
4.00 2.67 Dimacharon
2.00 1.67 Tyranid prime
2.92 2.50 Toxicrine
Unsaved Wounds vs a Riptide (factoring in ID) 6.67 5.56 Swarmlord
8.30 6.67 Dimacharon
0.78 0.65 Tyranid prime
4.67 4.00 Toxicrine
So basically the Dimacharon does the most damage, followed by Swarmlord. The Tyranid Prime vastly underperformed my expectations, but that's why we run these numbers. The Swarmlord's higher WS and Invul, and ability to challenge things out gives him a higher survivability, but he doesn't put out the level of damage of the Dimacharon. I always forget that the Dimacharon has Rampage. I so rarely get off a charge on a group of anything that he would need D3 extra attacks against.
ETA. doh! I initially ran the Dimacharon with a D6 bonus to attacks for Rampage. I have corrected it.
Thank for this - GW tried to sell Toxicrene to me - numbers don't lie. For the Dima, did you also include the offchance that it fails a Ld outside of Synapse?
@Journeyman
It's really up to you. Some people still like them, some don't. If you feel you would get more mileage out of 320pts then switch it up. Writing lists is free.
Sinful Hero wrote: @Journeyman
It's really up to you. Some people still like them, some don't. If you feel you would get more mileage out of 320pts then switch it up. Writing lists is free.
That is very true. The only thing I can do is playtest them. I'm just glad I have the models still. I just don't get a lot of time to play games considering I'm a student and have a job, and still have to paint my models, so I want to make my games count. But with that said, I don't think taking a Tervigon versus not taking a Tervigon will make or break my games.
Frozocrone wrote: Thank for this - GW tried to sell Toxicrene to me - numbers don't lie. For the Dima, did you also include the offchance that it fails a Ld outside of Synapse?
Nope. I did the number only for the damage output. Swarmlord is the toughest once he makes it into combat. Toxicrine is the weakest. Dimacharon is tough but could theoretically fail a leadership. If he fails synapse there isn't much to fear, he just charges the nearest thing. Tyranid Prime is the only one with grenades.
Another thing that didn't get represented in the number is Swarmlord's buffing power. He can give himself preferred enemy or monster hunter which ups his damage output considerably in most cases. I chose not to represent that because 1) I've never had a problem with Swarmlord not doing enough damage against something with a toughness value that isn't a Transcendent C'Tan.
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Dimachaeron would come out top as it's hitting most things on 3+ like swarm lord and Tyrants but it's attacks outwheigh the others
Tyrant:4(5)
Swarmlord:4(5)
Dimachaeron:5(6) +D3 when outnumbered.
yeah.. I don't think we need an excel statistical sheet to show which one is better...
Dima has more wounds, is cheaper, is WS8, has more attacks and is S8 on the charge with sickle claws.
Good point, the HT has all the intangibles which can't be measured in CC I guess - fearless, 4+ jink, ML2 and is far more mobile with wings...
fearless is quite a big downside actually that is worth noting! it means you need something with synapse in range to prevent it being run down in the off chance it loses CC.
So on an unrelated note, how would this list far? completely ignoring new releases;
Demon Prince
Mark of Tzeentch
armour
flight
Exalted reward
ML2
6 FMC with demon summoning support.
10 WC+D6 a turn
I may be mistaken, but this list could be pretty nasty, no?
Playing demons 13-14 WC for summoning is not enough if you want to do two summons a turn plus have charge for other powers. Drop the exalted rewards, I assume you want grim / glyph and you don't have enough to really justify both.
Get another horror it is 9 pts for a warp charge.
Get 1 - 2 zoans. I know a lot of people like screamers in this list but with 4 bug flyers 2 demon FMC the screamers will take a up a huge chunk of room. Honestly, I would drop a crone. You have more than enough anti-air with the bugs and one crone. You need more summoning/buffing power.
I have been wondering how Skyblight with demons would do.
All of this talk of Daemon/Bug allies has me more than a little titilated. . . Must go over my collection and make a list. I could see double CAD with this being particularly nasty, though I know a lot of competitive scenes don't do that. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it is crystal clear to me now why many of those metas do not allow double cad. You could net yourself two Flyrants to add to a strong daemon list for the measly tax of two Mucolid spores. . . something about this is so wrong that I just have to try it.
astro_nomicon wrote: All of this talk of Daemon/Bug allies has me more than a little titilated. . . Must go over my collection and make a list. I could see double CAD with this being particularly nasty, though I know a lot of competitive scenes don't do that. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it is crystal clear to me now why many of those metas do not allow double cad. You could net yourself two Flyrants to add to a strong daemon list for the measly tax of two Mucolid spores. . . something about this is so wrong that I just have to try it.
If summoning has got you excited, then check out my (now completed) battle report:
I don't think most of the metas were thinking about the mucolids when they banned dual-CAD, but the idea is the same - to prevent the spamming of certain super-efficient units.
Iechine wrote: 5.83 5.00 Toxicrine vs a Wraithknight? Isnt he hitting on 4+'s to begin with?
yeah and he only has 6 attacks so thats only 2.5 wounds...
But on 6's he does 6 wounds. That is why I made a point of highlighting that ID was included.
Well, technically, he does as much wounds as the model has remaining. If he rolls that 6 for his fifth attack, he basically only did two wounds. Or if he rolls two sixes in 1 dice roll, the second one doesn't do anything. Counting every 6 as 6 wounds will inflate the number, as you can see.
astro_nomicon wrote: All of this talk of Daemon/Bug allies has me more than a little titilated. . . Must go over my collection and make a list. I could see double CAD with this being particularly nasty, though I know a lot of competitive scenes don't do that. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it is crystal clear to me now why many of those metas do not allow double cad. You could net yourself two Flyrants to add to a strong daemon list for the measly tax of two Mucolid spores. . . something about this is so wrong that I just have to try it.
If summoning has got you excited, then check out my (now completed) battle report:
I don't think most of the metas were thinking about the mucolids when they banned dual-CAD, but the idea is the same - to prevent the spamming of certain super-efficient units.
astro_nomicon wrote: All of this talk of Daemon/Bug allies has me more than a little titilated. . . Must go over my collection and make a list. I could see double CAD with this being particularly nasty, though I know a lot of competitive scenes don't do that. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it is crystal clear to me now why many of those metas do not allow double cad. You could net yourself two Flyrants to add to a strong daemon list for the measly tax of two Mucolid spores. . . something about this is so wrong that I just have to try it.
If summoning has got you excited, then check out my (now completed) battle report:
I don't think most of the metas were thinking about the mucolids when they banned dual-CAD, but the idea is the same - to prevent the spamming of certain super-efficient units.
Yeah I meant in a more general sense. And yes I've already checked out your battle report Excellent as always. I would have liked to have seen another Nurgle DP in the daemons list instead of a second GUO, but to each his own. I know he wasn't going for a cutthroat list or anything, but I just have such a hard time passing up on an FMC if I can fit it.
hive tyrants have 4 attacks basic.
4(5 ) +1 for 2 sets of arms. just like Swarmlord.
Can someone please confirm (don't have my codex with me)? I am 99% sure that they are now base 3, +1 for 2 cc weapons. But if you swap out those weapons for devourers, they go back down to 3 attacks.
They have 4 base (+1 for 2 CC, if they have it).
Ok, thanks.
My bad then.
I can see how often you CC with a Tyrant...
Lol. I gave up with them in assault ever since 6th. Tried it one more time at the BAO in 7th, but that was a big mistake which I probably won't repeat again.
Yeah I meant in a more general sense. And yes I've already checked out your battle report Excellent as always. I would have liked to have seen another Nurgle DP in the daemons list instead of a second GUO, but to each his own. I know he wasn't going for a cutthroat list or anything, but I just have such a hard time passing up on an FMC if I can fit it.
I see the Toxicrene as pretty good close combat for it's price. It is just relatively fragile and works best in conjunction with other units. It's a decent substitute for a ccTMC if you can't use a Dima (cost or No FW).
Iechine wrote: 5.83 5.00 Toxicrine vs a Wraithknight? Isnt he hitting on 4+'s to begin with?
yeah and he only has 6 attacks so thats only 2.5 wounds...
But on 6's he does 6 wounds. That is why I made a point of highlighting that ID was included.
Well, technically, he does as much wounds as the model has remaining. If he rolls that 6 for his fifth attack, he basically only did two wounds. Or if he rolls two sixes in 1 dice roll, the second one doesn't do anything. Counting every 6 as 6 wounds will inflate the number, as you can see.
While I see your point, however I think a more nuance formulation of the possible outcomes would not be useful as a comparative calculation.
I was briefly inclined to add a percentage to ID, but decided that 2 number per unit would be more useful (Charge, 2nd Round), and decided that counting an ID as Max wounds was more useful than counting it as average wounds or some other level, because in most of those combats, it is an ID that is going to be the blow that actually takes care of business.
If you have a better way to present such a comparative calculation, I will happily take it under advisement. And if you have a greater grasp of statistics and can easily graph the probabilistic outcomes in the form of a bell curve that would probably be the best way to present the data.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is a rundown of the 4 Melee creatures comparisons vs Armor. Its only their chance to Glance. If anyone cares about their chance to Pen, I can run that too.
I'm assuming the Swarmlord gives himself furious charge, the Dimacharon uses his Grasping Talons, and has +1 S on the charge, and the Tyranid Prime has Adrenal glands and Rending Claws. Nothing Smashing until wounding is impossible.
As expected the Dimacharon wins again. What i wasn't expecting was the Tyranid Prime to outperform the Toxicrine like that. Once again HOW are not included.
And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.
If you want Crushing Claw Fexes, you would probably be better off with Stonewreckers. D3 S10 Ap2 HoW with Armourbane and Monster Hunter, yus please
Hasn't this been discussed before? I seem to remember a discussion about not actually gaining much with the Stonecrusher, but it may have had something to do with no guns and crawling across the board.
Lol. I gave up with them in assault ever since 6th. Tried it one more time at the BAO in 7th, but that was a big mistake which I probably won't repeat again.
Is that where you overestimated their damage output and smashed to not kill the tac squad ?
And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.
If you want Crushing Claw Fexes, you would probably be better off with Stonewreckers. D3 S10 Ap2 HoW with Armourbane and Monster Hunter, yus please
Hasn't this been discussed before? I seem to remember a discussion about not actually gaining much with the Stonecrusher, but it may have had something to do with no guns and crawling across the board.
True, but it doesn't need to crawl across the board now I'm eager to try one over a Dakkafex just to see how they compare If I'm honest
And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.
Sure
Note: with only 4 attacks on the charge, the Exocrine is better off Smashing against Armor 12. Also Stone Crushers are AP:1, and so they have twice the chance of exploding vehicles.
Because you've Asked for Carnifexes, and they do a significant amount of Damage in HOW, here is the HOW table. I can't combine the two tables, because in most cases HOW will hit another armor facing than normal attacks.
OrdoSean wrote: Death leaper died... i think I mentioned that. The other Lictor guided them in.
Yep, it just looked from the picture like the Lictor wasn't in range to guide the Mawlocs in. I'm guessing your opponent consolidated toward it for some reason.
Great Job with the picture by the way.
I do not understand at all what your Tau opponent was trying to do clumping up like that. Were you tabled except for 3 Spore mines at the start of your 2nd turn? Was one of the Spore mines manning the Comms relay, or did you have to roll for reserves without it? Why didn't you embark some spore mines in the Bastion?
Was it your impression that your opponents generally didn't really understand what Mawloc do?
And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.
Sure
Note: with only 4 attacks on the charge, the Exocrine is better off Smashing against Armor 12. Also Stone Crushers are AP:1, and so they have twice the chance of exploding vehicles.
Because you've Asked for Carnifexes, and they do a significant amount of Damage in HOW, here is the HOW table. I can't combine the two tables, because in most cases HOW will hit another armor facing than normal attacks.
And for the Fex, add crushing claws, and no crushing claws. I am interested in these numbers.
Sure
Note: with only 4 attacks on the charge, the Exocrine is better off Smashing against Armor 12. Also Stone Crushers are AP:1, and so they have twice the chance of exploding vehicles.
Because you've Asked for Carnifexes, and they do a significant amount of Damage in HOW, here is the HOW table. I can't combine the two tables, because in most cases HOW will hit another armor facing than normal attacks.
In Game 1, Did deathleaper survive to teleport homer your Mawlocs, or did you just roll freaking lucky on the scatter?
Thank you Tag. Seems like a carnifex is an ok melee av hunter in a pinch. Something i wanted to know. I also learned HOW is now resolved on armor facing you charge. Neat.
Not sure if I see the value of the rippers in this list. Could take mucolid spores instead, that's then an additional threat to worry about when the rippers aren't much threat at all.
So after spending quite a sum on a new Tamaskan dog Im laying off spending on WH40K for a bit. This is going to be my current TAC list as well as a competitive choice. I also think this list is FUN to play, which I can appreciate.
Iechine wrote: So after spending quite a sum on a new Tamaskan dog Im laying off spending on WH40K for a bit. This is going to be my current TAC list as well as a competitive choice. I also think this list is FUN to play, which I can appreciate.
Death Leaper Assassin Formation - 380 Death Leaper 130
5 Lictors 250
This still has the same function as Sean's list with a bit of insurance. Shrikes can DS too. I like them. Synapse is not a big issue in the list but these guys can shoot and assault too. Use spores or a lictor to take overwatch if you have too.
Not sure if I see the value of the rippers in this list. Could take mucolid spores instead, that's then an additional threat to worry about when the rippers aren't much threat at all.
They aren't a threat, until they are scoring.me the objectives. Then you have to make a choice between those scoring or the other units killing. While I see the point of Mucoloids for filling out minimum troops in list, and they do have a place in MSU lists, I'd still like the extra, if I had a spare 10 points (already have 5) then I'd chuck one in.
felixcat wrote:I think if you want to redo San's list you need to look at Mucolids and Malanthrope now.
Death Leaper Assassin Formation - 380 Death Leaper 130
5 Lictors 250
This still has the same function as Sean's list with a bit of insurance. Shrikes can DS too. I like them. Synapse is not a big issue in the list but these guys can shoot and assault too. Use spores or a lictor to take overwatch if you have too.
I don't see the need for a Malonthrope, all he will do is give you a cover save first turn and then be left behind. If you feel the need for that cover save turn 1, a Venomthrope will do the same. And give you 40 points spare.
Iechine wrote: So after spending quite a sum on a new Tamaskan dog Im laying off spending on WH40K for a bit. This is going to be my current TAC list as well as a competitive choice. I also think this list is FUN to play, which I can appreciate.
Other than the Bastion which I can buy cheap, all I have to do is paint up my Tyrannocite and 10 Gargoyles and be on my way.
Since they are so in vogue now, maybe I better drop a ripper and use a venomthrope instead so I can throw in a Lictor.
That Lictor would be a good fit with two Mawlocs popping up
No it wouldn't. A licttor would be a good fit if your goal is to give up first blood. We've seen Sean find success by SPAMMING lictors. That doesn't make a single lictor viable. Unless you are looking to build a list around Lictors, you should probably stick with what you've got. It is a very good list, and should work well for you. No reason to ever take 4 Rippers, so you could spread out those points to an upgrade on the carnifex, Mawloc or a few extra gargoyles.
I'd like to chime in and say that I've been running lictors in various lists throughout 6th and 7th edition. While my gameplay experiences are mostly casual pickup games at my local store, i have to say that I have always loved the look of lictors so I made use of them.
Having a ton of 1-model MSU units that are still capable of scrapping most light and medium tanks in the game via CC is a nice tactic. It means that most times the enemy will overkill one or two of them, leaving the rest free to assault and return some damage. This is why i haven't used the Lictor forest brood much - 5 lictors in one unit will hit like a truck, but its downside is the enemy has 1 unit to focus on for return fire, and the brood doesnt' often stay locked in CC so they're always getting shot at.
My favorite lictor trick is popping them out of synapse in cover, or out of LOS. If they manage to get shot by anything that doesn't ignore cover, g2g for a 2+ cover save keeps them alive most times. Then a flyrant swoops over in my movement phase, makes them fearless, and they stand up ready to move and assault.
I also like the fact that the Dimachaeron is in a very lictor-y pose. If he had cthulu tentacles that would be awesome.
For the record I was joking about taking one Lictor.
I love the model. I dont love the points cost and the idea of a stealthy assassin hunting its target for months only to reveal himself and stand still to be shot at for a turn.
Zande4 wrote: Since Sean's win I've taken the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood twice for 2 tablings! 1 against Iron Hands and 1 against Orks.
We you the one who got tabled?
Oh no sorry, I phrased that poorly. I pretty much tabled my opponents both games. The Iron Hands conceded at the start of 3 and the Orks conceded at the end of turn 4. I ran a triple Mawloc/Flyrant list against the Marines and a I ran a no Flyrant list against the Orks (They had no anti-air).
The Lictors really do allow you to grab objectives in a pinch.
Deathleapers -D3 Leadership + the -1 Leadership from the formation alongside Psychic Scream did a number on the TH+SE Iron Hands CM Biker.
I don't know if it's me or what, but I've had a tough 2 games with my Deathleaper Assassin Brood. Neither of my games were a stroll in the park.
BTW, I did get Scream in one of my games. However, even wight the -1 LD from the lictors, my opponent was still making his saves for his units (most of which were only LD8 base!).
jy2 wrote: I don't know if it's me or what, but I've had a tough 2 games with my Deathleaper Assassin Brood. Neither of my games were a stroll in the park.
BTW, I did get Scream in one of my games. However, even wight the -1 LD from the lictors, my opponent was still making his saves for his units (most of which were only LD8 base!).
Mate, you also tend to play in a tough crowd to beat anyway.
Quick question. In a TAC list is it better to take a carnifex with TL devourers or an Exocine? I'm torn between taking the dakkafex in a pod or an Exocine with a vope. The rest of my army is 2 Flyrants, 2 Crones, rippers and Zopes.
shamroll wrote: Quick question. In a TAC list is it better to take a carnifex with TL devourers or an Exocine? I'm torn between taking the dakkafex in a pod or an Exocine with a vope. The rest of my army is 2 Flyrants, 2 Crones, rippers and Zopes.
I would go with Dakkafex. Dakkafex's problem is range. Pod fixes that. Exocrine has better range to begin with, and has AP shooting, but has no place in assault, while Dakkafex can do ok in assault.
shamroll wrote: Quick question. In a TAC list is it better to take a carnifex with TL devourers or an Exocine? I'm torn between taking the dakkafex in a pod or an Exocine with a vope. The rest of my army is 2 Flyrants, 2 Crones, rippers and Zopes.
Basically, unless you're thinking you're going up vs terminators without storm shields, a carnifex will out perform an exocrine in almost all cases.
shamroll wrote: Quick question. In a TAC list is it better to take a carnifex with TL devourers or an Exocine? I'm torn between taking the dakkafex in a pod or an Exocine with a vope. The rest of my army is 2 Flyrants, 2 Crones, rippers and Zopes.
I would go with Dakkafex. Dakkafex's problem is range. Pod fixes that. Exocrine has better range to begin with, and has AP shooting, but has no place in assault, while Dakkafex can do ok in assault.
By this same token, would taking a Tyrannocyte JUST for an Exocrine be a good idea? Considering I have synapse support, obviously. I feel as though taking an Exocrine without a pod might not be worth it, as it would have to slug its way down the battlefield. I'm still a bit confused on the Tyrannocyte's role in any list other than heavy Deep Strike lists.
Zande4 wrote: Since Sean's win I've taken the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood twice for 2 tablings! 1 against Iron Hands and 1 against Orks.
We you the one who got tabled?
Oh no sorry, I phrased that poorly. I pretty much tabled my opponents both games. The Iron Hands conceded at the start of 3 and the Orks conceded at the end of turn 4. I ran a triple Mawloc/Flyrant list against the Marines and a I ran a no Flyrant list against the Orks (They had no anti-air).
The Lictors really do allow you to grab objectives in a pinch.
Deathleapers -D3 Leadership + the -1 Leadership from the formation alongside Psychic Scream did a number on the TH+SE Iron Hands CM Biker.
Haha literally the exact question I was going to ask when I saw this. Glad to see you're having some success with it (and man, my poor wallet! Although, I really love lictors and am not sorry at all sbout getting more. Plus, totally getting the Deathleaper model as my base Lictors and then going to make Deathleaper even more awesome so he's distinguishable
shamroll wrote: Quick question. In a TAC list is it better to take a carnifex with TL devourers or an Exocine? I'm torn between taking the dakkafex in a pod or an Exocine with a vope. The rest of my army is 2 Flyrants, 2 Crones, rippers and Zopes.
I would go with Dakkafex. Dakkafex's problem is range. Pod fixes that. Exocrine has better range to begin with, and has AP shooting, but has no place in assault, while Dakkafex can do ok in assault.
By this same token, would taking a Tyrannocyte JUST for an Exocrine be a good idea? Considering I have synapse support, obviously. I feel as though taking an Exocrine without a pod might not be worth it, as it would have to slug its way down the battlefield. I'm still a bit confused on the Tyrannocyte's role in any list other than heavy Deep Strike lists.
I don't think anyone has really figured out the Tyrannocyte yet. It is truely a different beast than the mycetic spore, and it has different strategic opportunities and challenges. I wouldn't be so sure that a heavy deep strike list is the way to go, when the Deep strike method costs 100 points per unit.
My instincts are telling me that we want one of 2 things coming out of a Tyrannocyte. Option #1: Something that pops out and alpha strikes something in the backfield. Examples of this (Devourer Termagants, Dakkafexes, Theoretically Warriors or Zoenthrope)
Option #2: Something that pops out, and is a backfield disruption that is hard to deal with. Examples of this (Tyrannofex, Gants, potentially a Dimacharon, Toxicrine, Tervigon, or Stone Crusher). I'm not really seeing where Exocrine fits in here. He can alpha strike a bit, but isn't going to kill a unit, just weaken it. He is tough, but not near as tough as a Tyrannofex. My instinctual reaction is that Exocrines will continue to be a backfield unit.
My initial instinct tells me that one and only one is the way to go, with a Fex popping up backfield. That said, further games are the only way to be sure.
Iechine wrote: My initial instinct tells me that one and only one is the way to go, with a Fex popping up backfield. That said, further games are the only way to be sure.
Of course, now with a new detachment AND SIX FORMATIONS (wow!) things are going to change again. Who knows if any of them will be good (GW got 3 out of their first 15 right if you ask me). But this whirlwind of change that we've been riding for the last few weeks still has at least one more week to go before we can look at the entire picture (if that even is the entire picture after next week)
Totally unrelated topic, just finished assembling one of the two Tyrannocytes I got today. Absolutely stunning model. Whatever shortcomings GW has as a rules company, they do make beautiful models. I assembled it with the flaps extended out like the Sporocyst and I think it looks super awesome. And the Mucolid will definitely be really easy to make some green stuff tentacles for. Detail won't be amazing on the tentacles, but that's just because I have the artistic skills of a two-year-old when it comes to execution. It is going to be a huge pain to transport, but I think that the flaps extending out will give some good support to the sideways tentacles. I would probably have magnetized those tentacles otherwise.
Finally, I think I will magnetize the top and bottom pieces (the main ones) for the second one so that it literally can be a Russian doll and have something actually be inside of it for a game. I'm thinking a Lictor. Or maybe doing an actual diorama of something....maybe a space marine slowly dying inside a digestion pool....
shamroll wrote: Quick question. In a TAC list is it better to take a carnifex with TL devourers or an Exocine? I'm torn between taking the dakkafex in a pod or an Exocine with a vope. The rest of my army is 2 Flyrants, 2 Crones, rippers and Zopes.
I would go with Dakkafex. Dakkafex's problem is range. Pod fixes that. Exocrine has better range to begin with, and has AP shooting, but has no place in assault, while Dakkafex can do ok in assault.
By this same token, would taking a Tyrannocyte JUST for an Exocrine be a good idea? Considering I have synapse support, obviously. I feel as though taking an Exocrine without a pod might not be worth it, as it would have to slug its way down the battlefield. I'm still a bit confused on the Tyrannocyte's role in any list other than heavy Deep Strike lists.
I don't think anyone has really figured out the Tyrannocyte yet. It is truely a different beast than the mycetic spore, and it has different strategic opportunities and challenges. I wouldn't be so sure that a heavy deep strike list is the way to go, when the Deep strike method costs 100 points per unit.
My instincts are telling me that we want one of 2 things coming out of a Tyrannocyte. Option #1: Something that pops out and alpha strikes something in the backfield. Examples of this (Devourer Termagants, Dakkafexes, Theoretically Warriors or Zoenthrope) Option #2: Something that pops out, and is a backfield disruption that is hard to deal with. Examples of this (Tyrannofex, Gants, potentially a Dimacharon, Toxicrine, Tervigon, or Stone Crusher). I'm not really seeing where Exocrine fits in here. He can alpha strike a bit, but isn't going to kill a unit, just weaken it. He is tough, but not near as tough as a Tyrannofex. My instinctual reaction is that Exocrines will continue to be a backfield unit.
Exocrine comes down with BS4 since he didn't move, and makes it much harder for his target to claim cover with that mobility. It also secures his fairly short range high power specialist weapon to get in range, and him avoiding getting killed before he uses it as he is a little bit of a glass cannon at 34 per wound. I think there is far worse things to put in a pod than an Exocrine and he definitely synergises well with DS entry.
His impact can be just as big as a drop-podding Carnifex in fact much larger against the right targets (targets that would otherwise eat a gakload of Dakka), and he does it far more reliably than the Mawloc. I think he's a good option.
Iechine wrote: My initial instinct tells me that one and only one is the way to go, with a Fex popping up backfield. That said, further games are the only way to be sure.
Of course, now with a new detachment AND SIX FORMATIONS (wow!) things are going to change again. Who knows if any of them will be good (GW got 3 out of their first 15 right if you ask me). But this whirlwind of change that we've been riding for the last few weeks still has at least one more week to go before we can look at the entire picture (if that even is the entire picture after next week)
Totally unrelated topic, just finished assembling one of the two Tyrannocytes I got today. Absolutely stunning model. Whatever shortcomings GW has as a rules company, they do make beautiful models. I assembled it with the flaps extended out like the Sporocyst and I think it looks super awesome. And the Mucolid will definitely be really easy to make some green stuff tentacles for. Detail won't be amazing on the tentacles, but that's just because I have the artistic skills of a two-year-old when it comes to execution. It is going to be a huge pain to transport, but I think that the flaps extending out will give some good support to the sideways tentacles. I would probably have magnetized those tentacles otherwise.
Finally, I think I will magnetize the top and bottom pieces (the main ones) for the second one so that it literally can be a Russian doll and have something actually be inside of it for a game. I'm thinking a Lictor. Or maybe doing an actual diorama of something....maybe a space marine slowly dying inside a digestion pool....
Real quick question, in cm how tall is the Tyrannocyte, and whats the diameter of the base?
The Mucolid is on a 40 mm base. The Tyrannocyte is on the new 100mm circle base size. The Tyrannocyte is 22.2 centimeters tall (8.75 in). It's surprisingly study for the height and small width near the bottom because it's almost perfectly symmetric
Must... Fight off urge... To buy more plastic crack. I still have so much of my army unpainted and I have a mighty need for a Toxicrene, two Tyrannocytes, a Dimachaeron and the new box of vopes/zopes when it drops.
Speaking of sizes, I want to finish up the basing of my Lictor conversions and make them legit (sizing wise). I don't actually own a model, can anyone give me the height of the model? And what size base its on?
SHUPPET wrote: Speaking of sizes, I want to finish up the basing of my Lictor conversions and make them legit (sizing wise). I don't actually own a model, can anyone give me the height of the model? And what size base its on?
I started to put mine together yesterday and instead opened a bottle of wine and cooked the rest of the afternoon. Now its 5:51 in the morning and its over there on the table guilt tripping me.
So many pieces : /
Here's some light box pics of that Dimachaeron, he's already doing good on ebay which means more bugs in the future for me. I've got three Malanthropes on the way, and Ill do three different schemes. Does anyone ACTUALLY field Tyranids painted in official Hive Fleet colors in your meta's? I've personally never seen anything like Behemoth or Kraken, I think bug players prefer to do their own fleet.
Iechine wrote: I started to put mine together yesterday and instead opened a bottle of wine and cooked the rest of the afternoon. Now its 5:51 in the morning and its over there on the table guilt tripping me.
So many pieces : /
Here's some light box pics of that Dimachaeron, he's already doing good on ebay which means more bugs in the future for me. I've got three Malanthropes on the way, and Ill do three different schemes. Does anyone ACTUALLY field Tyranids painted in official Hive Fleet colors in your meta's? I've personally never seen anything like Behemoth or Kraken, I think bug players prefer to do their own fleet.
Spoiler:
The one other Nid player I commonly see in my local has the yellow and red codex colour scheme, so there's that I guess.
Iechine wrote: I started to put mine together yesterday and instead opened a bottle of wine and cooked the rest of the afternoon. Now its 5:51 in the morning and its over there on the table guilt tripping me.
So many pieces : /
Here's some light box pics of that Dimachaeron, he's already doing good on ebay which means more bugs in the future for me. I've got three Malanthropes on the way, and Ill do three different schemes. Does anyone ACTUALLY field Tyranids painted in official Hive Fleet colors in your meta's? I've personally never seen anything like Behemoth or Kraken, I think bug players prefer to do their own fleet.
Spoiler:
Looks incredible! How many hours did you put into it?
Can any one else the Predator resemblance in the first picture?
SHUPPET wrote:
The one other Nid player I commonly see in my local has the yellow and red codex colour scheme, so there's that I guess.
Really nice Dima btw
Thanks man. I dont have any bugs at my local store that are painted besides mine. Hopefully this Dima will find a nice forever home to assault some Space Marines in. I simply foster them.
Eldercaveman wrote:
Looks incredible! How many hours did you put into it?
Can any one else the Predator resemblance in the first picture?
Right around 13 from assembly to dull coat. I could have done it much faster but my daughter was sick this past week so it was constant interruptions, ordinarily I'm a speed painter.
Monday after next I am taking on the guys at Dropzone games for a 6000pt Tyranid Invasion...Ill be bringing my entire force against the imperium and hope to get it suitably batreped.
We're working on the fluffiness for the mission, but Ill have first turn and hope to make the most out of that Heirophant's bioplasma torrent.
Rather than post the whole batrep here, I will just link to it, and offer my take-a-ways.
1) I had 2 VC Tyrannocytes and one Deathspitter. The only friendly fire wound I took all game was an 9" scatter onto the Tyrannocyte itself
2) One Venom Cannon Tyrannocyte took out Ulrik which was big
3) This wasn't a great test with such an unbalanced (gunline) opponent, but fascinatingly he almost beat me.
4) Dakkafex in pod = awesome
Over all, I did really well, played against 2 Space Wovles, Won 1 lost the other, (the one I los was a really lcose and good game, I tabled the other) the one I tabled was a Mech list, Lots of like vehicles. play IG won (Did really well witht he Fexes) the Final was again a 30k army, not to familur with with and I feel Idid really well, had alot of T5/6/7 MC with alot of shooting.
Text week I will do 4 Pods and 2 of the Sporocytes with more fliers and see how it goes.
WD fluff for the Maleceptor is "previously unencountered Maleceptor, a psychic monstrosity more than capable of dealing with human psykers." While yes the unit over all is a let down, Overload as a focused Witchfire power in side SITW might almost reflect this, since the it would be the target psychers leadership.
Hmmm, that brings up a YMDC question, might have found a way to make playable.
barnowl wrote: WD fluff for the Maleceptor is "previously unencountered Maleceptor, a psychic monstrosity more than capable of dealing with human psykers." While yes the unit over all is a let down, Overload as a focused Witchfire power in side SITW might almost reflect this, since the it would be the target psychers leadership.
Hmmm, that brings up a YMDC question, might have found a way to make playable.
You take the highest leadership for the unit.
So in Order to take a Wound off of a Librarian that is joined to a standard tac squad, you need to manifest, which will be difficult. Your opponent might be able to deny because of their denial bonus for having a psycher in the unit. Then, you've got a pretty good chance of perils if you threw enough dice at it to make it go off and precision shot, and not get denied, so you are generally going to take a wound. Then, you roll to hit, and will miss 50% of the time. Then they have to fail their leadership. With Leadership 8 that will happen 74% of the time. Then they get to make a 2+ LOS. so they fail that 16.67% of the time. So basically, your odds of sniping out a space marine librarian if you throw 11+ psychic dice at it are about 6%, and your odds of taking a wound yourself are about 60%.
I'm sorry my friend, but the Maleceptor is the worst model available to any codex, and no amount of spinning that is going to make it better.
barnowl wrote: WD fluff for the Maleceptor is "previously unencountered Maleceptor, a psychic monstrosity more than capable of dealing with human psykers." While yes the unit over all is a let down, Overload as a focused Witchfire power in side SITW might almost reflect this, since the it would be the target psychers leadership.
Hmmm, that brings up a YMDC question, might have found a way to make playable.
You take the highest leadership for the unit.
So in Order to take a Wound off of a Librarian that is joined to a standard tac squad, you need to manifest, which will be difficult. Your opponent might be able to deny because of their denial bonus for having a psycher in the unit. Then, you've got a pretty good chance of perils if you threw enough dice at it to make it go off and precision shot, and not get denied, so you are generally going to take a wound. Then, you roll to hit, and will miss 50% of the time. Then they have to fail their leadership. With Leadership 8 that will happen 74% of the time. Then they get to make a 2+ LOS. so they fail that 16.67% of the time. So basically, your odds of sniping out a space marine librarian if you throw 11+ psychic dice at it are about 6%, and your odds of taking a wound yourself are about 60%.
I'm sorry my friend, but the Maleceptor is the worst model available to any codex, and no amount of spinning that is going to make it better.
That is what the YMDC is about, since it is targeted witchfire, would it be the squad or the target models LD. Shreik is always the highest since it targets the Unit as a whole, but Overload only targets a model. And yes the model is bad, just wondering if it atleast pulls fluff.
barnowl wrote: That is what the YMDC is about, since it is targeted witchfire, would it be the squad or the target models LD. Shreik is always the highest since it targets the Unit as a whole, but Overload only targets a model. And yes the model is bad, just wondering if it atleast pulls fluff.
You are correct.
Focus Witchfire: ... If the total number of Warp Charge points harnessed exceeds the Warp Charge cost required to manifest the psychic power, the power is resolved against the model you chose. If the cost to manifest the power is met, but not exceeded, resolve the power against the closest model in the target unit instead.
It forces a leadership check on a model instead of a unit. That isn't a big difference but it is something.
I came up with some custom rules for the Maleceptor to show what could have been done with it (added a little fluff too). Such a wasted opportunity. Maybe one day it, the Pyrovore and the Haruspex will get the overhaul they need.
The Maleceptor is a terrifying Tyranid organism rarely seen on the battlefield and is believed to be created only when the Tyranid invasion faces resistance from powerful enemy Psykers. Space Marines of the Grey Knights chapter also reported creatures similar to the Maleceptor on the devoured world of Shadowbrink when the Tyranids faced a Daemonic legion, but these reports are impossible to verify following the destruction of that world. The Maleceptor is a large quadrupedal organism with a bloated armoured torso housing six additional brains which amplify the effects of the Shadow in the Warp to unbearable levels rendering he use of otherworldly powers even more difficult and dangerous. Mortal Psykers have taken their own lives rather than endure the presence of a Maleceptor on the battlefield, and psychically-sensitive races such as the Eldar struggle to remain conscious when facing this monster. Even more fearsome, the six sub-brains within the Maleceptor possess a malign instinct to directly assault enemy Psykers, and ethereal tendrils of power reach out from the Maleceptor to shred the minds of any Psykers within reach. So preoccupied are these poor victims with simply holding onto their sanity under the Shadow that they are powerless to deflect the alien's lethal mental assault.
Maleceptor: 205 points Brood: 1 Monstrous Creature
WSBS S T W I A LdSv 3 3 5 6 6 3 3 10 4+
Weapons: Scything Talons
Special Rules:
Synapse Creature
Shadow in the Warp
Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
Psychic Powers: A Maleceptor always knows the Psychic Overload power (see below) and generates one other power from the Powers of the Hive Mind.
Warp Shield: The Maleceptor is protected by psychic barriers similar to those of a Zoanthrope, and has a 3+ Invulnerable save.
Manifest Shadow: A Maleceptor's Shadow in the Warp special rule affects all enemy units within 24", rather than the usual 12". Additionally, enemy units with the Psyker, Brotherhood of Psykers of Daemon special rule trying to Deny the Witch against any Psychic Power cast by a Maleceptor can only successfully Deny the Witch on a 6+, regardless of any other modifiers that would normally be applied.
Psychic Overload (Warp Charge 2): Psychic Overload is a Malediction with a range of 24". The target unit must take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a number of wounds equal to the number the Leadership test was failed by, with no armour or cover saves allowed. Vehicles are treated as having Leadership 10, and if a vehicle fails this test then it instead suffers a Glancing Hit with no cover saves allowed.
The idea is a) to boost the survivability of the Maleceptor by increasing its Invulnerable save to something more appropriate considering its cost and then b) to really home in on the anti-Psyker concept by combining the effects of the -3 Leadership from Shadows with a Leadership-based Malediction that is specifically harder to stop if you are a Psyker or a Daemon. Other targets are still possible, even vehicles, but they are far from optimal making this unit something you really want to use to hunt enemy Psykers.
Big blobs of gargoyles fully utilizing 2" spacing around your shrouded source and using a bastion (not required) helps, all centered around whatever useful terrain thats on your side of the board. Keeping your tyrants off the table if its going to be a big bang is also smart. I see no reason to give up a free Tyrant to a dedicated drop pod army, let them shoot at something else and arrive in position using your comms relay to nuke the out of place marines on your side of the board.
Iechine wrote: Big blobs of gargoyles fully utilizing 2" spacing around your shrouded source and using a bastion (not required) helps, all centered around whatever useful terrain thats on your side of the board. Keeping your tyrants off the table if its going to be a big bang is also smart. I see no reason to give up a free Tyrant to a dedicated drop pod army, let them shoot at something else and arrive in position using your comms relay to nuke the out of place marines on your side of the board.
Yeah I just got slammed by a drop pod army in the last game of a tournament I was on for a top spot if it wasn't for that game, completely played it wrong from the start.
It happens, man. Jy2 posted a batrep where he positioned his army out of place to draw the drop pod army out of position for scoring, and since then I've dominated every single drop pod alpha strike army I've faced. This community really is helpful.
So have a tourney coming up in a month or so that has some unusual rules. One of which is no limit on formations, but no more than one of each. Objectives are Hold Ground which is scored every round so troops are important, Crusade, King of the Hill, Purge the Alien, and the standard secondaries. This is one of the list I am toying with. In the [past I have run troop heavy lists and placed well, but want something different this time.
Some units are obvious in there use. Since I know most of the boards will have ruins and or buildings, the Hunting back will be able to enter from reserve in a much more varied positions. If I can get MoA push the heavy support forward to make people un happy early.
I could use some tactical advice. I'm in a low point game against a tau player running the farsight supplement. So he doesn't have a lot of models but they are pretty resilient. The regular suits I can deal with but the missile-sides are a real pain. I run a FMC heavy list and the skyfire missile-sides really scare me. My opponent hasn't added a riptide yet but it is only a matter of time.
In this situation is it better to play it safe and hop on the ground from cover to cover, or should I take to the air and rush forward with everything to get into CC as fast as possible but risk grounding tests?
Also, in a higher point game should would a neurothrope (with the 2 zoanthropes) in a pod be a good suggestion against Tau Broadsides and Riptides?
shamroll wrote: I could use some tactical advice. I'm in a low point game against a tau player running the farsight supplement. So he doesn't have a lot of models but they are pretty resilient. The regular suits I can deal with but the missile-sides are a real pain. I run a FMC heavy list and the skyfire missile-sides really scare me. My opponent hasn't added a riptide yet but it is only a matter of time.
In this situation is it better to play it safe and hop on the ground from cover to cover, or should I take to the air and rush forward with everything to get into CC as fast as possible but risk grounding tests?
Also, in a higher point game should would a neurothrope (with the 2 zoanthropes) in a pod be a good suggestion against Tau Broadsides and Riptides?
Mawloc will hurt these buggers. Breaking up static fire points like that is kind of it's bread and butter.
@Xypt, I like where you went with the Maleceptor but giving a 6W 6T MC a 3++ is going overboard, a 4++ would be fine and increasing the point cost of such a beast to 220-230pts for all that jazz you gave would still make it more than useable.
shamroll wrote: I could use some tactical advice. I'm in a low point game against a tau player running the farsight supplement. So he doesn't have a lot of models but they are pretty resilient. The regular suits I can deal with but the missile-sides are a real pain. I run a FMC heavy list and the skyfire missile-sides really scare me. My opponent hasn't added a riptide yet but it is only a matter of time.
In this situation is it better to play it safe and hop on the ground from cover to cover, or should I take to the air and rush forward with everything to get into CC as fast as possible but risk grounding tests?
Also, in a higher point game should would a neurothrope (with the 2 zoanthropes) in a pod be a good suggestion against Tau Broadsides and Riptides?
Mawloc will hurt these buggers. Breaking up static fire points like that is kind of it's bread and butter.
I didn't considered the Mawloc too but we play with multi-level terrain pieces so my opponent usually puts the broadsides on the 2nd and 3rd floor and the Mawloc can only hit the first. I've haven't had too many good scatter rolls with them either. Running lictors takes care of that but we aren't allowing formations (or fortifications so no comm relay) and 3 individual lictors don't seem like a good fit for my current escalation league. SMS also make short work of lictors. I'll still consider the Mawloc but I haven't fielded them a lot so I'm inexperienced with them.
barnowl wrote: So have a tourney coming up in a month or so that has some unusual rules. One of which is no limit on formations, but no more than one of each. Objectives are Hold Ground which is scored every round so troops are important, Crusade, King of the Hill, Purge the Alien, and the standard secondaries. This is one of the list I am toying with. In the [past I have run troop heavy lists and placed well, but want something different this time.
Some units are obvious in there use. Since I know most of the boards will have ruins and or buildings, the Hunting back will be able to enter from reserve in a much more varied positions. If I can get MoA push the heavy support forward to make people un happy early.
I like this list quite a lot. The only thing I'm trying to think of is how to get another Warrior or two into your Troops brood with the CC gear... I have found that with Warriors, a few extra bodies really helps. Is there any way to get 5 in there? Additionally, one Venomthrope is good but two are better - but I don't know where you'd be willing to cut from. I'm a huge fan of Tyrannofexes, so perhaps dropping one Dakkafex in order to bulk out the Warriors? You could get 3 more and the second Venomthrope as well...
Iechine wrote:It happens, man. Jy2 posted a batrep where he positioned his army out of place to draw the drop pod army out of position for scoring, and since then I've dominated every single drop pod alpha strike army I've faced. This community really is helpful.
Yeah that would have been my plan but annoyingly it was kill points.
shamroll wrote: I could use some tactical advice. I'm in a low point game against a tau player running the farsight supplement. So he doesn't have a lot of models but they are pretty resilient. The regular suits I can deal with but the missile-sides are a real pain. I run a FMC heavy list and the skyfire missile-sides really scare me. My opponent hasn't added a riptide yet but it is only a matter of time.
In this situation is it better to play it safe and hop on the ground from cover to cover, or should I take to the air and rush forward with everything to get into CC as fast as possible but risk grounding tests?
Also, in a higher point game should would a neurothrope (with the 2 zoanthropes) in a pod be a good suggestion against Tau Broadsides and Riptides?
Would be helpful to know how low points we're taking about here, but some of what I'll say is true regardless:
With farsight, you have a couple options:
1) pump an obscene amount of shots into his unit. Given that a Flyrant will average about 9 wounds, that's not too shabby. Make them take saves, and they'll fail them. It's only 3+ armor, and they are a lot of points per wound
2) ignore his deathstar. Tyranids live in an age of ridiculous mobility. With mawlocs, hive tyrants, and anything you can shove in a drop pod, you can make farsight drop in where you want (away from your objectives) and then re-deploy away from him. Ignoring has never been so easy
As for the rest of the army, Tyranids do lack a good means of AP 2. This is tough against both Riptides and Broadsides. Your best options, in no particular order, are probably to:
1) drown them in wounds. It doesn't feel efficient, but Tyranids have a lot of firepower. Even 2+ saves don't last forever (just ask my Deathwing)
2) get some ranged AP 2. That would mean an exocrine. You can deploy him normally for a 30" threat range (not bad for tyranids) or drop pod him into the backfield for a nasty surprise to those broadsides. Also, if you're not taking the "ignore the deathstar" route, Mawlocs really are awesome. They will decimate even the farsight bomb
3) we do have AP 2 in close combat as well. The Toxicrene is particularly good at throwing out a ton of AP 2 attacks, and it's main weakness (low WS) doesn't matter against tau. In fact, he's a downright machine against their WS2. You can pod him if you're worried about ignores cover and/or the long walk across the board. Also, if you are able to do Forge World, I can tell you with certainty that there is nothing more terrifying to a Tau player than a Dimachaeron, and you can often use the drop pod to put him into the same cover that the broadsides are sitting in after his 6" disembark. So he rocks a 3+ armor and 4+ cover and loves it. Broadsides are much less happy. A turn later and you'll be smiling
1: I really like the 20 guants crawling out of the pod. with a 6 inch deployment and a run move you can claim 3 objectives at once if their close. 5 spore pods and 40 guants right in front of the enemy can really block the enemies movement and protect the zoans, flying hives and dakkafexes from getting assaulted. their great for assaulting units on a objective and staying their for the rest of the game.
2: I really want to like the zoanthropes. If the neurothrope does sum "sucking" damage then the can be devastating. But for that you really have to spend enough warp charge to make this happen (without getting blocked) and if you miss (or the pass their 3xd6 test) you got nothing. Maybe iam going to take 2 single zoanthrop's and put each of them in a sporepod. This way you got more warp charge and more tyranid psychic powers on the field. But for 3 zoanthropes with a sporepod you can have another flying hive tyrant with allies. I think I am going for that.
3: Mucolid spore bombs. These guy's can really be annoying for the enemy even when the don't do any damage during the game. For example: I dropped a mawlock at the left flank close to sum wave serpents. behind the mawloc I dropped the 4 spore bombs to make sure the enemies wave serpent cannot turbo boost towards that section without getting assaulted by at least one of these bombs (the right flank are crawling with 40 guants, spore pods and dakkafexes). If iam going for another flying hive then I need these points to get a ripper troop choice (allies) but apart from that I like the "annoying factor". You have to be comfortable with the strategic effect the can have without doing any damage.
4: dakkafexes are awesome.
5: tyrannocytes are also awesome. You got so much MSU, you can use them to block other units, and the can still drift towards objectives. Taking down a wave serpent? dire avengers crawling out will get deathspittered in the face. Even wraithknights are getting wounded at sum point. A wraithknight assaulted a sporepod in cover and got a smash hit in the face! that was fun..
From a purely competitive standpoint, which is the better choice? A Toxicrene or a Screamer Killer Carnifex (Talons, Crushing Claws, Bio-Plasma and Regeneration). Both would be dropped in a Tyrannocyte with Venom Cannons far from the main force with only another Tyrannocyte and its payload of 17 Termagants with Devourers and a Tyranid Prime. A Flyrant would be somewhere but she can't be counted on to do anything but kill enemy flyers and often times enter Ongoing Reserves to get away from flyers so her Syanpse is a maybe at best.
SharkoutofWata wrote: From a purely competitive standpoint, which is the better choice? A Toxicrene or a Screamer Killer Carnifex (Talons, Crushing Claws, Bio-Plasma and Regeneration). Both would be dropped in a Tyrannocyte with Venom Cannons far from the main force with only another Tyrannocyte and its payload of 17 Termagants with Devourers and a Tyranid Prime. A Flyrant would be somewhere but she can't be counted on to do anything but kill enemy flyers and often times enter Ongoing Reserves to get away from flyers so her Syanpse is a maybe at best.
The Toxicrene and Carnifex are aiming at different targets. A Carnifex with Crushing Claws wants to find a tank or three, while a Toxicrene wants to find elite infantry or enemy Monstrous Creatures. Depends on what you face most commonly I guess. The Toxicrene is probably a little more survivable, and more likely to kill things in the long run.
If you were to go with a CC Carnifex, I wouldn't bother with the Bioplasma or Regeneration on it at any rate. Save yourself 50 points and grab something else.
When you have little control over targeting, I'd be worried to use the blast options on the Tyrannocyte. Plus it's pretty irritating and un-fun to be firing 5 of them in a row.
The most powerful options to drop will be the ones with solid firepower on arrival, and a strong secondary purpose for later turns:
Devilguants - 60 S4 shots plus objective secured
Dakkafex - 12 S6 twin-linked shots plus strong melee / anti-armour capability
Zoanthropes - Warp blast and psychic shenanigans plus durable synapse
Tyrannofex - Multiple templates for digging out entrenched units on our most durable unit
Toxicrene - Ignores Cover ID-capable poison attack and decent melee ability with AP2
Hive Guard - three Haywire attacks on a durable unit that's no slouch in melee either
Iechine wrote:It happens, man. Jy2 posted a batrep where he positioned his army out of place to draw the drop pod army out of position for scoring, and since then I've dominated every single drop pod alpha strike army I've faced. This community really is helpful.
Yeah that would have been my plan but annoyingly it was kill points.
Kill points are in our favor vs Drop pods. It encourages them to alpha strike, and if we are properly bubble wrapped, that will hurt, but be survivable. (They should be able to kill at most 1 flyrant, or Crone, or Malanthrope, or Carnifex) At that point we can neutralize the majority of their fire power, and deny them kill points for the rest of the game. Drop pods are the reason we need 30-40 Gargoyles / Gants in our lists for bubble wrapping, and then tarpitting.
Because Drop pods rarely ignore cover, we can withstand their alpha strike better than other armies.
The most common mistake I see tyranid players making is trying to reserve stuff against drop pods. You want everything on the table (except maybe Rippers or Mawlocs).
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shogun wrote: 1: I really like the 20 guants crawling out of the pod. with a 6 inch deployment and a run move you can claim 3 objectives at once if their close. 5 spore pods and 40 guants right in front of the enemy can really block the enemies movement and protect the zoans, flying hives and dakkafexes from getting assaulted. their great for assaulting units on a objective and staying their for the rest of the game.
A single unit can only ever claim one objective. But you can have options.
I prefer mixed gants coming out of the Tyrannocyte because 10 Devourers can kill a vehicle with back armor 10.
Noctem wrote:Just bought a Tyrannocite, is there a generally accepted best loadout for guns for them? =O
Frozocrone wrote:What are the best weaons/passengers for Tyrannocytes? I'm thinking Deathspitters just to keep costs down but Blassts acn mitigate bad BS somewhat.
I'm contemplating buying a Dimachaeron or two to go in them (already have two Dakkafexen built, just need the arms for FW).
Depends on what you put in them I think-
Termagants probably wouldn't want those large blasts of the stranglers scattering back on them.
A CC monster would probably appreciate the pinning of the stranglers for infantry, or the str 6 of the Cannons for vehicles.
I like the idea to keep them cheap and not worry about wasting time resolving five scatter rolls. What's IN the pod is more important than the pod itself to me.
shogun wrote: 1: I really like the 20 guants crawling out of the pod. with a 6 inch deployment and a run move you can claim 3 objectives at once if their close. 5 spore pods and 40 guants right in front of the enemy can really block the enemies movement and protect the zoans, flying hives and dakkafexes from getting assaulted. their great for assaulting units on a objective and staying their for the rest of the game.
A single unit can only ever claim one objective. But you can have options.
I prefer mixed gants coming out of the Tyrannocyte because 10 Devourers can kill a vehicle with back armor 10.
I know the cannot claim 3 objectives but its like you said: you got the option to be everywhere and claim the one you need at the moment. Devourers are nice but I rather let the sporepod deathspitters do this. If theirs a vehicle that stupid to show its but then you got dakkafexes to do this job. You also want the option to just drop those termaguants on an objective and with devourers the are more expensive then the have to be.
The power says that the Tyranid player rolls 2d6+2 and subtracts the target's leadership to see how many wounds it causes. This is not a characteristic test. In the rulebook, it does state that units taking characteristic tests (including leadership, morale, pinning, etc) always use the highest value of the stat being tested. However since this power is NOT a characteristic test, I think it looks at the majority leadership rather than the single highest value.
While this isn't a YMDC thread, this does pertain to tyranids in particular. So, those here who know the ins and outs of why this may or may not be true, please chime in with explanations and/or page references if i'm wrong on this.
I tried out an OS Tervigon in a Tyrannocyte in two games over the weekend (30 Outflanking Termagants bringing him in as a Troops choice). I thought I would mix things up a little and go with Shreddershards rather than Egrubs in her Thorax.
The first game was against a speedy Eldar list and the second a Marine gunline. Both were unaltered maelstrom missions (I forget which now). In both games the Tervigon came in on turn 2 (lucky) and had an impressive impact.
Spawned Termagants accounted for three Maelstrom points in each game over the remaining turns (the Tervigon never actually got to score anything itself), and the Shreddershards managed to push a squad of SM off of an objective (love the Shred/Rend combo). Aside from a couple of blasts from the Thorax the Tervigon didn't actually kill much over the two games, but the chaos it causes when it lands is definitely something I could learn to make room for. Surprise Synapse is really handy (freeing up Tyrants to be elsewhere). I can imagine that a lucky roll of Psychic Scream on it could be great too, but that's not something you can count on.
Overall, Deep Striking a Tervigon gets us over one of the key weaknesses of the unit in my opinion; short range. It's too expensive to sit in your backfield on an objective, so if you want to use it you need to ram it down your opponent's throat and what better way than a spore? It's everything Outflanking one was, only better.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Riptides can reliably get a 3++ on a faster, cheaper, better shooting platform with a 2+ save.
A 3++ on it is far from game breaking.
If you have to compare it to "arguably" the most broken thing in the game then your not using the right standards, and a 33% chance of not only failing to get the 3++, but to take a wound too, is not what I would call reliable, especially since you lose out on other nifty things if you do choose to get the 3++. Plus other stuff I could nitpick about but no need to.
Like I said, I like his maleceptor proposition, I just feel he was going too far with the free buffs.
The power says that the Tyranid player rolls 2d6+2 and subtracts the target's leadership to see how many wounds it causes. This is not a characteristic test. In the rulebook, it does state that units taking characteristic tests (including leadership, morale, pinning, etc) always use the highest value of the stat being tested. However since this power is NOT a characteristic test, I think it looks at the majority leadership rather than the single highest value.
While this isn't a YMDC thread, this does pertain to tyranids in particular. So, those here who know the ins and outs of why this may or may not be true, please chime in with explanations and/or page references if i'm wrong on this.
Thanks
Even if you're correct and you can use the majority rather than the highest, it's moot. For one, it's a nova power. You're not targeting anything. Also, even once you get down to a psyker and one other dude, where there is no technical majority, you again use the highest value (like with majority unit toughness, etc)
Target or no, the tyranid player still does the rolling. My key example of where this becomes useful is for instance a unit of marker drones (ld7) led by a commander (ld10). Using majority as well as good flyrant placement, psy scream is a great way to kill that tau commander.
Edit - I understand it's good form to play ambiguous rules to the least advantage until FAQ'd, I was just going through the psychic powers and noticed the different wording between psy scream and the horror (both powers are similar in that they use a 2 modifier and leadership, but they are performed in different ways. It's obvious that the horror uses highest ld - it's a pinning test. Why isn't psy scream worded as a leadership test unless it's meant to work in a functionally different way?)
tetrisphreak wrote: Target or no, the tyranid player still does the rolling. My key example of where this becomes useful is for instance a unit of marker drones (ld7) led by a commander (ld10). Using majority as well as good flyrant placement, psy scream is a great way to kill that tau commander.
Edit - I understand it's good form to play ambiguous rules to the least advantage until FAQ'd, I was just going through the psychic powers and noticed the different wording between psy scream and the horror (both powers are similar in that they use a 2 modifier and leadership, but they are performed in different ways. It's obvious that the horror uses highest ld - it's a pinning test. Why isn't psy scream worded as a leadership test unless it's meant to work in a functionally different way?)
Sorry for the off topic.
People have been playing the always-use-the-highest-LD-in-the-unit way forever. RAW or not, it'll be hard to persuade them otherwise. You may even be accused of Rules Lawyering for trying to get them to use majority LD. IMO, it is not worth it to try to argue for this ambivalent intepretation, whether it is actually RAW or not. You're just inviting arguments into the game.
The power says that the Tyranid player rolls 2d6+2 and subtracts the target's leadership to see how many wounds it causes. This is not a characteristic test. In the rulebook, it does state that units taking characteristic tests (including leadership, morale, pinning, etc) always use the highest value of the stat being tested. However since this power is NOT a characteristic test, I think it looks at the majority leadership rather than the single highest value.
While this isn't a YMDC thread, this does pertain to tyranids in particular. So, those here who know the ins and outs of why this may or may not be true, please chime in with explanations and/or page references if i'm wrong on this.
Thanks
#1 There is precidence for using a model rather than a unit's leadership to make the test. See the rulebook page 13:
"Leadership Tests:
At Certain times, a model or unit might be called upon to take a Leadership test...
To take a leadership test, use the following procedure:
-Roll 2D6 and compare the result to the model's leadership
....
-If a unit has to take a Leadership test and it includes models with different Leadership values, always use the highest Leadership from among them."
#2 Psychic Scream (Tyranid Psychic Power) is a nova and targets units:
Page 27: "A nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units within the psychic power's maximum range."
Thus it hits the unit.
#3 Psychic Shriek (telepethy Primaris) is a witchfire.
Page 27: "Witchfire powers are shooting attacks"
Thus it hits the unit, unless the model manifesting it has precision shot.
#4 Psychic Overload (Maleceptor Psychic power) is a Focused Witchfire
Page 27: "Focus Witchfire: ... If the total number of Warp Charge points harnessed exceeds the Warp Charge cost required to manifest the psychic power, the power is resolved against the model you chose. If the cost to manifest the power is met, but not exceeded, resolve the power against the closest model in the target unit instead."
Thus it hits the model.
What is this, YMDC?! I'm still waiting on more opinions about Tyrannocyte weapons, and if your choice should change based on the unit intended to disembark from it.
Sinful Hero wrote: What is this, YMDC?! I'm still waiting on more opinions about Tyrannocyte weapons, and if your choice should change based on the unit intended to disembark from it.
For all the lists I have wrote with them in I haven't found the points to upgrade the weapons, so I'll likely just keel them stock. 75 points is fairly expensive anyway, once they drop their cargo anything else they achieve I'll consider a bonus.
Sinful Hero wrote: What is this, YMDC?! I'm still waiting on more opinions about Tyrannocyte weapons, and if your choice should change based on the unit intended to disembark from it.
For all the lists I have wrote with them in I haven't found the points to upgrade the weapons, so I'll likely just keel them stock. 75 points is fairly expensive anyway, once they drop their cargo anything else they achieve I'll consider a bonus.
I feel the same. The Deathspitters are a hell of a lot faster to resolve as well, and no worries about bad scatter hurting the cargo.
jy2 wrote: People have been playing the always-use-the-highest-LD-in-the-unit way forever. RAW or not, it'll be hard to persuade them otherwise. You may even be accused of Rules Lawyering for trying to get them to use majority LD. IMO, it is not worth it to try to argue for this ambivalent intepretation, whether it is actually RAW or not. You're just inviting arguments into the game.
Unsurprisingly I disagree strongly with the sentiment. There was a guy at my club that played the Serpent shield as a 360 degree weapon. He had done so forever through multiple editions against 40-50 different opponents. His incorrect rules interpretation does not get grandfathered in, nor does he get cut slack, if after having the correct rule explained to him, he reverts to "the way I've played it forever"
Getting the rules right, and consistent alleviates long term conflict not creates it.
I'm done bringing up the off-topic PsyScream because i do agree this forum is for tactics and not rules - i apologize for derailing the thread. Tag8833 has excellent rules quotes pertaining to the power with the exception that he left out that the power itself is NOT a leadership test. The tyranid player rolls 2d6+2, not the enemy who is being affected. Key difference. It needs a FAQ before the general public would interpret the rule in the manner that I do, therefore i'm agreeing to not bring it up as such until then - i just wanted to put it out there for discussion and something to maybe think about.
All that being said - moving forward on tactics. Tonight is my clubs weekly league casual 40K night and i'm bringing this for a 1250 list:
HQ - Deathleaper
TP - Mucolid
TP - Mucolid
FA - Dimachaeron
FA - 4x Spore mines
EL - 2x Zoanthropes, 1x Neurothrope
HVY - Tyrannocyte
HVY - Tryannocyte
Formation: Manufactorum Genestealers
5x5 genestealer broods
3x Broodlords with scything talons
I haven't run genestealers in a long time so i wanted to give them a go. This list will most likely win big or lose big so we will see. I'll let everyone know how it does.
Sinful Hero wrote: What is this, YMDC?! I'm still waiting on more opinions about Tyrannocyte weapons, and if your choice should change based on the unit intended to disembark from it.
I don't think we can say with authority yet. I also think it depends highly on the unit being transported. If you are bringing in a Dakkafex to pop back armor on things, Venom Cannons would seem to be the way to go. If you are bringing in devil gants, you probably want deathspitters, because friendly fire is too dangerous. If you are bringing in a Dimacharon, Venom Cannons would probably be best to give you a chance to pop transports before the Dimacharon gets there.
Anyone got some decent ideas about making some Mucolid Spores?
Any specific spare bits that could be used as a shell/foundation for it?
Would making your own out of whatever (as long as it was a fair representation) be ok to use at tournaments?
Sinful Hero wrote: @tetrisphreak
It looks like it'll be a load of fun, but why the lonely spore mines? Would be better for upgrades elsewhere?
I had 23 points and manufactorum genestealers can't add any genestealers. Dimachaeron and deathelaper don't have access to biomorphs. Not enough for an extra zoey or even upgraded guns on a t-cyte. So i figured, hell just drop some spore mines in and make the enemy waste a turn shooting them after they arrive. If they survive they can soak overwatch for dima or deathleaper.
L0rdF1end wrote: Anyone got some decent ideas about making some Mucolid Spores?
Any specific spare bits that could be used as a shell/foundation for it?
Would making your own out of whatever (as long as it was a fair representation) be ok to use at tournaments?
I just don't want to shell out £44 x6 lol.
You could use the Meiotic Spores from Forgeworld.
If you're buying the Tyrannocytes anyway, Greenstuff tentacles on the bottom.
Alternatively, with plenty of clay/Greenstuff you could take any spare Carnifex carapaces lying around and make a decent stand in- church it up a bit with MC adrenal glands/toxin sacs/extended carapace bits.
L0rdF1end wrote: Anyone got some decent ideas about making some Mucolid Spores?
Any specific spare bits that could be used as a shell/foundation for it?
Would making your own out of whatever (as long as it was a fair representation) be ok to use at tournaments?
I just don't want to shell out £44 x6 lol.
What Sinful hero said. All you really need to do is make some Greenstuff tentacles. Heck I wonder how well someone would do if they made a add on bit that made a Mucoloid with the leftover bits from the Tyrannocyte?
Sinful Hero wrote: @tetrisphreak
It looks like it'll be a load of fun, but why the lonely spore mines? Would be better for upgrades elsewhere?
I had 23 points and manufactorum genestealers can't add any genestealers. Dimachaeron and deathelaper don't have access to biomorphs. Not enough for an extra zoey or even upgraded guns on a t-cyte. So i figured, hell just drop some spore mines in and make the enemy waste a turn shooting them after they arrive. If they survive they can soak overwatch for dima or deathleaper.
What about a third Mucolid? Only 15pts. Not saying it's a better choice but it's an option for bonus antiair(however often that comes up).
jy2 wrote: People have been playing the always-use-the-highest-LD-in-the-unit way forever. RAW or not, it'll be hard to persuade them otherwise. You may even be accused of Rules Lawyering for trying to get them to use majority LD. IMO, it is not worth it to try to argue for this ambivalent intepretation, whether it is actually RAW or not. You're just inviting arguments into the game.
Unsurprisingly I disagree strongly with the sentiment. There was a guy at my club that played the Serpent shield as a 360 degree weapon. He had done so forever through multiple editions against 40-50 different opponents. His incorrect rules interpretation does not get grandfathered in, nor does he get cut slack, if after having the correct rule explained to him, he reverts to "the way I've played it forever"
Getting the rules right, and consistent alleviates long term conflict not creates it.
Just want to point out that your opponent is in the minority. Here in the West Coast, we mainly play the serpent shields as front arc, whereas in the East Coast tourneys (following the Nova formats), they play it as something like 220 degrees (around there). So there is not a consensus on how you play serpent shields. However, most people play that units always use the highest LD (unless a power targets a model instead of the unit). There is a consensus there.
There is just so much rules ambivalence nowadays due to the lack of FAQ's by GW that oftentimes, it's not really a matter of the right or wrong rules, but RAI intepretations and HWIPI (how would I play it). It's not so black and white anymore.
Sinful Hero wrote: What is this, YMDC?! I'm still waiting on more opinions about Tyrannocyte weapons, and if your choice should change based on the unit intended to disembark from it.
I don't think we can say with authority yet. I also think it depends highly on the unit being transported. If you are bringing in a Dakkafex to pop back armor on things, Venom Cannons would seem to be the way to go. If you are bringing in devil gants, you probably want deathspitters, because friendly fire is too dangerous. If you are bringing in a Dimacharon, Venom Cannons would probably be best to give you a chance to pop transports before the Dimacharon gets there.
That is a good answer. Adjust/equip your spores depending on what you plan to put in it.
Though oftentimes, I think that points become an issue. In such a case, running the spores naked is fine just as well.
All that being said - moving forward on tactics. Tonight is my clubs weekly league casual 40K night and i'm bringing this for a 1250 list:
HQ - Deathleaper
TP - Mucolid
TP - Mucolid
FA - Dimachaeron
FA - 4x Spore mines
EL - 2x Zoanthropes, 1x Neurothrope
HVY - Tyrannocyte
HVY - Tryannocyte
Formation: Manufactorum Genestealers
5x5 genestealer broods
3x Broodlords with scything talons
I haven't run genestealers in a long time so i wanted to give them a go. This list will most likely win big or lose big so we will see. I'll let everyone know how it does.
Interesting list. Would like to hear how it went. Oftentimes, we Tyranid players just don't get enough data on how certain units/formations work. It's always good to hear/see people sharing their experiences on the forums.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Riptides can reliably get a 3++ on a faster, cheaper, better shooting platform with a 2+ save.
A 3++ on it is far from game breaking.
If you have to compare it to "arguably" the most broken thing in the game then your not using the right standards, and a 33% chance of not only failing to get the 3++, but to take a wound too, is not what I would call reliable, especially since you lose out on other nifty things if you do choose to get the 3++. Plus other stuff I could nitpick about but no need to.
Like I said, I like his maleceptor proposition, I just feel he was going too far with the free buffs.
I agree with this sentiment because Riptide is the games most OP model and not a good comparison for anything,
That being said, his proposed rules were far from a Riptide, in fact I would still never ever play one at that state. Still be a terrible unit.
gigasnail wrote: iirc you have to have 3 zoanthropes before you can upgrade one to a neurothrope?
yes/correct.
I know. I own plenty of Venomthropes though, and two Zoens already. :-) I'm getting the new set to round out my Zoens to a unit of five plus a Neurothrope.
It also happens to mean i'll have all those left-over Venom tentacles though, which i'll combine with the 75% of a Mucolid left from building Tyrannocytes, to make them sans greenstuff as I have no modeling skills. :-p
I think for 1600 I would put in two Dimachaerons and change the Rippers to Mucolid Spores and have a screening unit of Gargoyles for the Dimas..
Probably about as pure as you can go. It will smash face against many, many opponents. I would drop the bastion for an Aegis to put VC's on one of the Tyrannocytes, but otherwise, it looks good.
I think for 1600 I would put in two Dimachaerons and change the Rippers to Mucolid Spores and have a screening unit of Gargoyles for the Dimas..
That is a very strong list, I ran something very close to this on the weekend to playtest out a Dimachaeron for the first time.
Dima ending up nomming 10x GK Terminators and Tigurius, so I'm pretty happy with that outcome.
The only way to improve on 1x Dimachaeron is 2x Dimachaerons.
Gargoyles for Dimas is a good idea and so is Mucolid, I haven't yet run Mucolid so I'm keen to know how it goes.
Razerous wrote: Could some give me the gist of what Mucolids do / are?
They are basically 3 wound T3 Spore Mines that explode with double the strength (initially, can get up to S10) and AP3. They also have a rule that allows them to charge zooming flyers/swooping monstrous creatures as though they were in hover/glide mode respectively.
They also for some reason are in the troops slot (expecting that to be changed to Fast whenever our codex is updated fully) and Sporocysts can create one free Mucolid per game.
I think for 1600 I would put in two Dimachaerons and change the Rippers to Mucolid Spores and have a screening unit of Gargoyles for the Dimas..
Is the only purpose of the malanthrope to hold the bastion/give cover to the flyrants turn 1? Otherwise everything seems to be pushing up field. I'd normally think of hte malanthrope giving cover/synapse and some CC backup to slower moving bugs.
I think for 1600 I would put in two Dimachaerons and change the Rippers to Mucolid Spores and have a screening unit of Gargoyles for the Dimas..
Is the only purpose of the malanthrope to hold the bastion/give cover to the flyrants turn 1? Otherwise everything seems to be pushing up field. I'd normally think of hte malanthrope giving cover/synapse and some CC backup to slower moving bugs.
I like the list a lot too. It's pretty similar to my own. My only concern would be that getting 2 Dimachaerons and 2 Fexes in the same list would be over-reliance on MOA/pods. I don't think I would use 4 pods and without them the fexes are sad or the Dimacherons are sadder.
To answer the purpose of the Malanthrope, it's got a couple things going for it:
1) Anti-alpha strike for basically your whole army if you have some decent terrain and/or night fighting. So much so that smart opponents will make you go first. Oh darn haha. But really you want to go second against 95% of opponents
2) Synapse for backfield units (Biovores, rippers, etc) in the event that you need it, as well as more forward units that might somehow start falling back outside of synapse. It can "catch" them before try get to your board edge, saving kill points, etc.
3) In a list like this, it mans the Comms relay as well as the bastion's heavy bolter. PEW PEW! I've had that sucker give me first blood and a separate maelstrom kill point in a single game. Who needs a Vindicare haha?
And this isn't true to its purpose, but it is surprisingly hardy in close combat. Wounding anything on 2+ is not too shabby. Won't win you a combat against terminators, but hey he's 85 points. Late game he can definitely tarpit units for a bit in a pinch, or otherwise stop non-obsec units from claiming an objective for some time
shamroll wrote: I could use some tactical advice. I'm in a low point game against a tau player running the farsight supplement. So he doesn't have a lot of models but they are pretty resilient. The regular suits I can deal with but the missile-sides are a real pain. I run a FMC heavy list and the skyfire missile-sides really scare me. My opponent hasn't added a riptide yet but it is only a matter of time.
In this situation is it better to play it safe and hop on the ground from cover to cover, or should I take to the air and rush forward with everything to get into CC as fast as possible but risk grounding tests?
Also, in a higher point game should would a neurothrope (with the 2 zoanthropes) in a pod be a good suggestion against Tau Broadsides and Riptides?
Mastic will hurt these buggers. Breaking up static fire points like that is kind of it's bread and butter.
All that being said - moving forward on tactics. Tonight is my clubs weekly league casual 40K night and i'm bringing this for a 1250 list:
HQ - Deathleaper
TP - Mucolid
TP - Mucolid
FA - Dimachaeron
FA - 4x Spore mines
EL - 2x Zoanthropes, 1x Neurothrope
HVY - Tyrannocyte
HVY - Tryannocyte
Formation: Manufactorum Genestealers
5x5 genestealer broods
3x Broodlords with scything talons
I haven't run genestealers in a long time so i wanted to give them a go. This list will most likely win big or lose big so we will see. I'll let everyone know how it does.
Alright so I played tonight. The mission was maelstrom of war - tactical escalation. My opponent was a csm player. His list was roughly a lord in power armor with 4++ and black mace, 2x10 csms with plasma, 5 terminators in a land raider, 3 bikes, and 2 helbrutes.
I lost the roll to go first so he took it. I infiltrated everything but the mucolids, except the 2 'cytes (dima in one, zoeys in the other) and the roadblock spore mines. His first turn he fired at a couple different units of genestealers I had deployed right in his face. Thanks to going to ground for 3+ cover he wasn't able to claim forts blood. Then he made the mistake of charging a helbrute into a unit of genestealers with a broodlord. I lost a couple stealers but over 2 rounds of CC I wrecked the brute with rending claws. First blood, tyranids.
Dima and zoeys turned up on turn 2, which kept him in his DZ dealing with all these threats. Meanwhile my MSU stealers and deathleaper mostly spent time bobbing to and from objectives. When the game ended on turn 6 I won 20-9 in tactical VPs.
I made a few tactical errors like placing the zoanthropes in range of his terminators' assault, etc but I overall felt like there is some value in the manufactorum formation. I think next week I just may try the broodlord hunting pack and see if I can make it work too.
Razerous wrote: Could some give me the gist of what Mucolids do / are?
They are basically 3 wound T3 Spore Mines that explode with double the strength (initially, can get up to S10) and AP3. They also have a rule that allows them to charge zooming flyers/swooping monstrous creatures as though they were in hover/glide mode respectively.
They also for some reason are in the troops slot (expecting that to be changed to Fast whenever our codex is updated fully) and Sporocysts can create one free Mucolid per game.
Mostly just as a matter of consistency, since all the other spore mine-variants are in the Fast Attack slot and the mucolid doesn't really fill the Troop battlefield role (can't score and isn't as common as regular Spore Mines if the Sporocyst's production capabilities are anything to go by).
I thought I saw a comparison somewhere, and they're only about 1/2" shorter if that. Close enough anyway.
Exactly mate. Good enough or close enough. I do not see anyone caring too much within tournament play.
3 for 19.00 British pounds isn't too bad compared to buying Tyrannocytes for each one.
I'm also a little lazy and would rather buy a model the represents it as close as possible.
I think I'm going to build my own Mucolids, gunna be a challenge but I don't want to sub in another model and I don't want to pay those prices lol, especially since I already have my Tyrannocytes customs.
Speaking of Tyrannocytes, we need a new buzzword. We have Swarm, Nidzilla, Tyradactyl, but no label/pun to accurately describe Tyrannocyte style army. "Drop pod assault" has no flavour and just sounds like a Marine strat. Get to brainstorming people! Haha. Do Lictor-builds too while we're at it!
SHUPPET wrote: I think I'm going to build my own Mucolids, gunna be a challenge but I don't want to sub in another model and I don't want to pay those prices lol, especially since I already have my Tyrannocytes customs.
Speaking of Tyrannocytes, we need a new buzzword. We have Swarm, Nidzilla, Tyradactyl, but no label/pun to accurately describe Tyrannocyte style army. "Drop pod assault" has no flavour and just sounds like a Marine strat. Get to brainstorming people! Haha. Do Lictor-builds too while we're at it!
SHUPPET wrote: I think I'm going to build my own Mucolids, gunna be a challenge but I don't want to sub in another model and I don't want to pay those prices lol, especially since I already have my Tyrannocytes customs.
Speaking of Tyrannocytes, we need a new buzzword. We have Swarm, Nidzilla, Tyradactyl, but no label/pun to accurately describe Tyrannocyte style army. "Drop pod assault" has no flavour and just sounds like a Marine strat. Get to brainstorming people! Haha. Do Lictor-builds too while we're at it!
For Drop Pods, Tyrannonids looks quite cool (to me anyway ), rolls of the tongue, play-on words, what have you.
Well, regardless of what we decide to call them, here is a bit of inspiration from the Hive Mind itself. May all our faithful brethren take joy in the song it has imparted unto me to share with you all.
Joy to Tyranids
Joy to the worlds! The Hive Mind comes
Let all recieve its gifts!
Let everything prepare defenses
And Humans and Eldar die
And Greenskins and Necrons die
And the Tau, and the Tau are dying too.
Joy to the Worlds! The progeny come
Let all the screams begin
from Malan'tai
its seed has come
And dinner is prepared well
And dinner is prepared well
Dinner, dinner is made well
No more shall we walk without pods
Nor hordes travel the ground
The sacks come down
From broodships above
We land all over the world
We land all over the world
We land, we land all over your world
It rules our kind with strength and will
And makes the tyranids strong
through the joy of servitude
And welcome our new friends
And welcome our new friends
And welcome, and welcome our new friends
Hoping for a little list feedback. I'm playing an 1850 game versus a friend tomorrow. I'm piecing together a few of my favorite parts of the Nidz lists I've been playing lately, including some Tyrannocyte action. I'm struggling with forming a concise plan. I'd like to play with a solid combination of this:
3x Zoanthrope w/Neurothrope upgrade (in Tyrannocyte)
1x Venomthrope
1x Lictor
Dimachaeron (in Tyrannocyte)
Mawloc
Living Artillery Node (w/Barbed Strangler on Warriors)
Bastion w/Comms
Problem is this comes up to over 1850, easily. I also have a few Carnifex with multiple weapons options, etc. I'd like to have a lot of flexibility. I know he's bringing Space Marines, I know he's probably bringing Drop Pods with a good bit of Melta/Grav and I'd like to avoid seeing my Bastion be roasted (along with the gribblies inside it) on turn 1, before I have the opportunity to Tyrannopod/Deep Strike all over the place. Conversely, if I lose the first turn roll, I'd really like to avoid plunking my Hive Tyrants on the table as bait and losing such a powerful Unit so early.
I'm going to wait a while before getting pods, as I have just spent a fortune finishing my nid collection. Almost finished the painting and basing; I'll put some pics up when I'm done... My aim is to have two fully painted armies (Nids and IF) done by end of year, with a gaming mat and terrain mostly done, so I can finally have that spectacular gaming experience
notbriang wrote: Hoping for a little list feedback. I'm playing an 1850 game versus a friend tomorrow. I'm piecing together a few of my favorite parts of the Nidz lists I've been playing lately, including some Tyrannocyte action. I'm struggling with forming a concise plan. I'd like to play with a solid combination of this:
3x Zoanthrope w/Neurothrope upgrade (in Tyrannocyte)
1x Venomthrope
1x Lictor
Dimachaeron (in Tyrannocyte)
Mawloc
Living Artillery Node (w/Barbed Strangler on Warriors)
Bastion w/Comms
Problem is this comes up to over 1850, easily. I also have a few Carnifex with multiple weapons options, etc. I'd like to have a lot of flexibility. I know he's bringing Space Marines, I know he's probably bringing Drop Pods with a good bit of Melta/Grav and I'd like to avoid seeing my Bastion be roasted (along with the gribblies inside it) on turn 1, before I have the opportunity to Tyrannopod/Deep Strike all over the place. Conversely, if I lose the first turn roll, I'd really like to avoid plunking my Hive Tyrants on the table as bait and losing such a powerful Unit so early.
Anyone have any suggestions here?
Thanks!
The "standard" answer to Pods O'Melta(tm) is bubble wrap, get thee some Gribblies! a Big Brood of Gargoyles is a popular choice. I like to use Hormagaunts. You just want to make sure that you have a job for them after turn 1. Hormies make an exelent Screen, but are very poor at holding an objective, unless you have a babysitter (Dominion is your friend). So Termagants would be better if their post Alpha job is go sit on an Objective...
How about the following for a combination of Skyblight and Sporocyst/Spore Mine area denial/objective camping?
1x Hive Tyrant
2x Devourers, EGrubs, Wings
240
1x Hive Tyrant
2x Devourers, EGrubs, Wings
240
1x Malanthrope
85
3x Ripper Swarms
Deep Strike
45
3x Ripper Swarms
Deep Strike
45
1x Biovore
40
1x Sporocyst
Venom Cannons
100
1x Sporocyst
Venom Cannons
100
Skyblight
1x Hive Tyrant
2x Devourers, EGrubs, Wings
240
10x Gargoyles
60
10x Gargoyles
60
10x Gargoyles
60
1x Hive Crone
155
1x Harpy
Venom Cannon
140
1x Harpy
Venom Cannon
140
All of that comes to 1750 total.
Skyblight brings the usual FMC spam and late-game ObjSec Gargoyles by Deep Strike, as well as a third Tyrant. DS ObjSec Rippers join the party as well.
The Sporocysts go where the mission says they should to a) get good fields of fire with their cannons, b) capture objectives and c) deny areas of the board with Spore Mines/Mucolids.
The Malanthrope and Biovore camp the home objectives and defend the FMC on the first couple of turns. Malanthropes look like they will work really well with Sporocysts if one ends up near to my own objectives; it confers Shrouding and the Sporocyst boosts the Synapse range to a handy 18". The Biovore is there to a) contribute to the Spore Mine spam and b) provide another body to hold an objective with if necessary.
I opted for Venom Cannons on the Harpies because in my experience they are great for popping a Hull Point off, and can opportunistically target whatever takes a beating from the Sporocysts/Hive Crone.
In regards to what to call a Tyrannocyte-centric army, what about calling it "Living Rain" (in reference to the "Steel Rain" of the Blood Ravens)?
Anyway, finally have my shiny new Toxicrene painted acceptably enough for some field testing:
Spoiler:
Also compared to a Haruspex:
Spoiler:
On a somewhat related note, has anyone noticed how similar the Haruspex and Toxicrene are? Both have a short-ranged shooting attack, both have Acid Blood, both have a preference for tougher/low model count foes, both have inbuilt survivability enhancements and both cost the exact same amount of points base... Main difference really seems to be that the Toxicrine is better equipped against shooting and for taking on T6+ foes while the Haruspex is better against T4 grunts/vehicles (obviously) and is more durable in combat (3+ armor and Feeder Beast rule).
Strat_N8 wrote: In regards to what to call a Tyrannocyte-centric army, what about calling it "Living Rain" (in reference to the "Steel Rain" of the Blood Ravens)?
There is no time to be lorst! As yuh know, most of owah brooduhs are lurking in deeeep space awaiting our command to strike. We have placed numerous Lictors, allowing for multiple simultaneous devastating and multiple simultaneous deep strikes (deeeeeeep strrriiiiiiikkkkeeeessss)!!
Definitely liking the "Pineapple Rain".
Cystic Assault
Huevos of Horror
Meatballs, Extra-Spicy
Spaceballs
Assault Gourds
Meatsack Attack
Suzerain Strike
Spudding
Taters of Terror
Twice-Baked-Terrors
Sacks o' Surprise
Bag of Jollies/ Bags of Jolly
Cystic Surprise
Sky Cysts/Boils
Cystic Delivery/Express
Okay, so speaking of Tyrannocytes and how they've given a slew of new ideas and tactics about the army, i have a question.
Haruspexes? My initial reaction to them was not great - being too slow to actively engage the enemy really kept them out of my lists. I have an exocrine glued and painted, and another model that is in limbo currently. Do you think it would be worth having a Haruspex to toss into a list here and there as an extra Elite MC?
Rapacious Hunger gives it a couple extra attacks the turn it charges, and it can heal lost wounds via CC. S8 ap2 armourbane on the turn it charges makes it viable vs vehicles (edit - because he will always upgrade to have adrenal glands in my lists). Base cost is the same as the toxicrene which has a worse armor save but shrouded...
I guess i'm asking if Tyrannocytes have saved Haruspexes from being "useless". I doubt they'll find their way into tournament winning lists, but then again nobody expected Lictor Shame to bust out and take a GT. OrdoSean ran that list like a champ.
Thoughts? Opinions? Sorry if it's already been covered - this thread has exploded since Nidvember hit.
I'll definitely be calling my Pod Heavy lists "Purple Rain", in style with my Horde lists (Purple Haze) Ground MC lists (The Purple People Eaters) and my FMC lists (Purple Sky). The only time I'll deviate from my Purple names is when I run my Knight, when I call my TyranKnights "Hive Fleet Mortimer".
Anyways, back to tactics... I'm so excited to build two SPods and test them out with a Pair of Tyrannofex inside! Personally I think they're the best option to put in a Pod just because they are so ridiculously tough.
jifel wrote: I'll definitely be calling my Pod Heavy lists "Purple Rain", in style with my Horde lists (Purple Haze) Ground MC lists (The Purple People Eaters) and my FMC lists (Purple Sky). The only time I'll deviate from my Purple names is when I run my Knight, when I call my TyranKnights "Hive Fleet Mortimer".
Anyways, back to tactics... I'm so excited to build two SPods and test them out with a Pair of Tyrannofex inside! Personally I think they're the best option to put in a Pod just because they are so ridiculously tough.
What Thorax will you be giving the Tyrannofex? Egrubs? I'm just wondering because Tyrannofex get overwhelmed by infantry easily enough, and Shreddershards + Acid Spray is horribly effective...
jifel wrote: I'll definitely be calling my Pod Heavy lists "Purple Rain", in style with my Horde lists (Purple Haze) Ground MC lists (The Purple People Eaters) and my FMC lists (Purple Sky). The only time I'll deviate from my Purple names is when I run my Knight, when I call my TyranKnights "Hive Fleet Mortimer".
Anyways, back to tactics... I'm so excited to build two SPods and test them out with a Pair of Tyrannofex inside! Personally I think they're the best option to put in a Pod just because they are so ridiculously tough.
What Thorax will you be giving the Tyrannofex? Egrubs? I'm just wondering because Tyrannofex get overwhelmed by infantry easily enough, and Shreddershards + Acid Spray is horribly effective...
Keep in mind that most "swarm" units that would tie up the T-fex are T3, except Orks. Egrubs wound them on a 2+ and are ap5, which usually ignores a "horde" unit's armor. I think of the 3 types of thorax grubs, the usefulness goes Egrubs>SShards>Dlarvae. Shreddershards are really useful vs MEQ/TEQ, unless they're all mech'ed up. I take Egrubs on every model that has it available - it's just the most TAC thorax flamer we have I think.
jifel wrote: I'll definitely be calling my Pod Heavy lists "Purple Rain", in style with my Horde lists (Purple Haze) Ground MC lists (The Purple People Eaters) and my FMC lists (Purple Sky). The only time I'll deviate from my Purple names is when I run my Knight, when I call my TyranKnights "Hive Fleet Mortimer".
Anyways, back to tactics... I'm so excited to build two SPods and test them out with a Pair of Tyrannofex inside! Personally I think they're the best option to put in a Pod just because they are so ridiculously tough.
What Thorax will you be giving the Tyrannofex? Egrubs? I'm just wondering because Tyrannofex get overwhelmed by infantry easily enough, and Shreddershards + Acid Spray is horribly effective...
Keep in mind that most "swarm" units that would tie up the T-fex are T3, except Orks. Egrubs wound them on a 2+ and are ap5, which usually ignores a "horde" unit's armor. I think of the 3 types of thorax grubs, the usefulness goes Egrubs>SShards>Dlarvae. Shreddershards are really useful vs MEQ/TEQ, unless they're all mech'ed up. I take Egrubs on every model that has it available - it's just the most TAC thorax flamer we have I think.
Correct, it'll be EGrubs! If I drop him near significant Hordes, I'll double flame (or maybe quadruple flame! ) the hordes, maybe even drop in some flamer templates from my FMCs. Otherwise, I should be able to put 4 EGrub templates downfield turn 2 with my Flyrants, enough to remove an annoying vehicle!
L0rdF1end wrote: Anyone got some decent ideas about making some Mucolid Spores?
Any specific spare bits that could be used as a shell/foundation for it?
Would making your own out of whatever (as long as it was a fair representation) be ok to use at tournaments?
L0rdF1end wrote: Anyone got some decent ideas about making some Mucolid Spores?
Any specific spare bits that could be used as a shell/foundation for it?
Would making your own out of whatever (as long as it was a fair representation) be ok to use at tournaments?
L0rdF1end wrote: Anyone got some decent ideas about making some Mucolid Spores?
Any specific spare bits that could be used as a shell/foundation for it?
Would making your own out of whatever (as long as it was a fair representation) be ok to use at tournaments?
I'm sorry, they are all really witty, but Pineapple Rain, and Cthulhu, are hands down the best two names IMO for Droppod and Lictor builds respectively. Just my opinion though haha, but both are so fitting it's perfect.
"Flavor-of-the-month Nids" made me laugh pretty hard too tho
tetrisphreak wrote: Okay, so speaking of Tyrannocytes and how they've given a slew of new ideas and tactics about the army, i have a question.
Haruspexes? My initial reaction to them was not great - being too slow to actively engage the enemy really kept them out of my lists. I have an exocrine glued and painted, and another model that is in limbo currently. Do you think it would be worth having a Haruspex to toss into a list here and there as an extra Elite MC?
Rapacious Hunger gives it a couple extra attacks the turn it charges, and it can heal lost wounds via CC. S8 ap2 armourbane on the turn it charges makes it viable vs vehicles (edit - because he will always upgrade to have adrenal glands in my lists). Base cost is the same as the toxicrene which has a worse armor save but shrouded...
I guess i'm asking if Tyrannocytes have saved Haruspexes from being "useless". I doubt they'll find their way into tournament winning lists, but then again nobody expected Lictor Shame to bust out and take a GT. OrdoSean ran that list like a champ.
Thoughts? Opinions? Sorry if it's already been covered - this thread has exploded since Nidvember hit.
Sadly, all I can say is ...magnets. I might be wrong, but it is hard to see Haru making a come back. But it does seem like it could do quite well VS a MSU style list as it can trash both Combat Sqds and Pods with a fair degree of ease.
Aye, it's pretty easy to magnetize between the Haruspex and the Exocrine; did it with mine. Just in case I ever want to run a Haruspex for fun or because it gets some decent rules in a future codex or something.
The addition of the Tyrannocyte makes me pod one in for fun sometime.
Leth wrote: It will be interesting to see what units see table time.
Does being able to deep strike make units like the haruspex more useful?
Technically yes, in that you can drop it no further than 1 turn from combat where it needs to be. Unfortunately there are still better much options even if you wanted to. A Dakkafex is just as effective against armour, but can inflict some decent shooting damage on arrival. Even Tervigons can be equipped to melee as well as a Haruspex, except they get a bunch of extra toys like synapse, psychic powers, spawning, objective secured, etc. This is what happens when your dedicated melee units have WS3 I3 A3 as standard...
In other news, I just went to order my Tyrannocytes from Element Games, and they've inexplicably dropped the discount on them from 20% to 15% :(
I'm really looking forward to playing against Tyranids with the new rules, will be interesting to see how things shape up for them with the new Formations, Warlord Trait and Detachment.
Ran this today and did very well vs a Deldar Viper/MSU heavy list.
The 2 pods+ their respective units, 3 flyers, and 2 Mawlocs just have such an over whelming presence for turn 2. it's insane.
Should the game have gone onto a T5-6 I would have tabled him but we called it at bottom of 4 as we ran out of time.
Congrats on the win Wilson. How did you find that the Zoans performed? I'm still not sold on them myself. Feel like there are better things to put in a pod. But yeah, that's a nasty list
By the way, how are we not more excited about our supposed bullet sponge gargoyles for the hive tyrants? If that's the type of thing we're getting from these formations, I'll be set for the next three Christmases. You know, because GW will have all of my expendable income from now until then haha
luke1705 wrote: Congrats on the win Wilson. How did you find that the Zoans performed? I'm still not sold on them myself. Feel like there are better things to put in a pod. But yeah, that's a nasty list
By the way, how are we not more excited about our supposed bullet sponge gargoyles for the hive tyrants? If that's the type of thing we're getting from these formations, I'll be set for the next three Christmases. You know, because GW will have all of my expendable income from now until then haha
Because I am panicking over how I am going to get up in time to make the hour run to the store and grab one of six remaining copies of the new book on Saturday
What new book?! Also can you get the white dwarf mags with the rules for these new models on the I pad? All I get when I search it is that pic gallery mag :/
Brutal Viking wrote: What new book?! Also can you get the white dwarf mags with the rules for these new models on the I pad? All I get when I search it is that pic gallery mag :/
I am talking about the Shield of Baal
As time goes on they may be available on the Black Libary. Toxicrene and Maleceptor rules are already on there.
Yeah, I'm still going with Eggzilla and #LictorShame. Lictors have gotten a reputation as a bad unit- or a rarely seen one, so it's fairly appropriate. Only thing worse would be #pyrovoreshame.
I played a moderately fluffy game tonight with 3 Tyrannocytes. They did work. Scored me 6 maelstrom points between them. The 2 with Venom Cannons rolled absurdly good killing 6 Blood Claws, and 7 Grey Hunters, and put a hull point on a drop pod. The one with Deathspitters killed 2 terminators in shooting, and put a wound on his warlord in assault before dying.
On average, Tyrannocytes with Deathspitters will land more hits than the same amount of points put into Warriors w Deathspitters, and also out-tank them LARGELY. So they are actually quite worth their points from a shooting perspective, although Warriors also tear gak up in CC.
You know, I think I can get behind EggNids. Now however, I think we need to look at something rather outdated Jy2. You know, do you mind if I just call you Jim, I realize I have never actually bothered to ask you that. Anyhow, looking at all the changes that have happened to us, I believe that we need to update the first post to give a far more up to date read on just how Tyranids stand.
But now onto more important things. I understand that we finally have most of the items to make a wide range of fairly viable lists, and Tyranids seem to be the most adaptable army now which I truly enjoy. So, let me ask you guys this; How many different themed lists do you feel you could possibly build now and feel like you could take it to a tournament with no mixed feelings? IE, EggNids, Nidzilla, GribNids, Skyblight, all this, all that, etc, etc?
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, I think I can get behind EggNids. Now however, I think we need to look at something rather outdated Jy2. You know, do you mind if I just call you Jim, I realize I have never actually bothered to ask you that. Anyhow, looking at all the changes that have happened to us, I believe that we need to update the first post to give a far more up to date read on just how Tyranids stand.
But now onto more important things. I understand that we finally have most of the items to make a wide range of fairly viable lists, and Tyranids seem to be the most adaptable army now which I truly enjoy. So, let me ask you guys this; How many different themed lists do you feel you could possibly build now and feel like you could take it to a tournament with no mixed feelings? IE, EggNids, Nidzilla, GribNids, Skyblight, all this, all that, etc, etc?
Unyielding actually brings up a fair point. However, if I was Jy2, I would probably wait until this campaign book comes out, as that will likely be our last major shakeup for a while at least (you know, because that's what was stopping him. Not enjoying life and playing some games along the way)
Unyielding Hunger wrote: But now onto more important things. I understand that we finally have most of the items to make a wide range of fairly viable lists, and Tyranids seem to be the most adaptable army now which I truly enjoy. So, let me ask you guys this; How many different themed lists do you feel you could possibly build now and feel like you could take it to a tournament with no mixed feelings? IE, EggNids, Nidzilla, GribNids, Skyblight, all this, all that, etc, etc?
I don't think we are quite ready to celebrate the adaptability of the Tyranids yet. It is unclear to me that any of the new models has a place in a top tier Tyranid TAC.
Lictorshame is an unbalanced list that worked very well at 11th company where there were no multi level ruins, Kill Points were at most a secondary, and MSU was king. Skyblight lost so much in 7th edition, and has seen its peak unless Tau, Eldar, and Necrons all take a nerfing. We are still limited to 1 viable HQ choice (Dakka Flyrants). 1 superior Elite Choice (Malanthropes), and a codex packed full of non-viable units. I don't think there is great versatility in the Tyranid codex. More than there used to be, but that is a pretty low bar.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, I think I can get behind EggNids. Now however, I think we need to look at something rather outdated Jy2. You know, do you mind if I just call you Jim, I realize I have never actually bothered to ask you that. Anyhow, looking at all the changes that have happened to us, I believe that we need to update the first post to give a far more up to date read on just how Tyranids stand.
But now onto more important things. I understand that we finally have most of the items to make a wide range of fairly viable lists, and Tyranids seem to be the most adaptable army now which I truly enjoy. So, let me ask you guys this; How many different themed lists do you feel you could possibly build now and feel like you could take it to a tournament with no mixed feelings? IE, EggNids, Nidzilla, GribNids, Skyblight, all this, all that, etc, etc?
Sure, you can call me by my name.
Yeah, I agree. The opening thread does need some updating, and I'll probably need the help of the people here. I don't really have the time to write a comprehensive review of all of the units here, but if I break it up into sections and people volunteer to help write them by units, I think we can get it done over time. Rather than focusing on some of the units, I think this major tactica should feature all of the units - including new units, formations and even Lords of War. If anyone wants to volunteer on writing up any of the units, just say so on this thread. Then I will take over write-up duties for any and all units that no one has volunteered for.
The unit write-ups, please include the following:
How does this unit fit in a Tyranid army: What is it's role? What is perhaps the best configuration for the unit. Can we somehow use it to enhance the army (and if so, then how?), or is there absolutely no redeeming quality to it at all? Why should we take it in our army (if we should take it at all)? What are its weaknesses?
Grade: Use an A to F system, with A being a superstar, B= good, C = average, D = bad, and F = this unit sucks hard. You can add + or - to the grading if you want (i.e. A+ = mega-superstar, A- = excellent, B+ = very good, B- = good enough to be somewhat useful, C+ = somewhat above-average unit, etc.).
Here's an example:
Hive Tyrant:
The Hive Tyrant is the heart of the competitive Tyranid army, especially when you give him wings and some guns. He works best with Wings, 2x twin-linked Brainleech Devourers and Electroshock Grubs. He is a major force-multiplier that helps the Tyranid army in so many categories, including:
1. Reliable anti-tank with Devourers and Electroshock Grubs.
2. Excellent mobility as a flying monstrous creature. Can threaten enemy targets almost anywhere on the table.
3. Mobile Synapse.
4. Psychic support for the army.
5. He is a major offensive threat in the army and the best shooter in the army.
6. The best anti-air offense in the army.
7. Bullet magnet that can soak up a lot of enemy firepower and still survive. This helps to make the rest of the army more survivable.
The major weakness of the shooty flyrant is that he will have problems against 2+ save units due to the lack of AP2 shooting. He is also mediocre in Assault. He can beat non-dedicated assault units, but you really don't want him getting into combat with any dedicated assault units due to a lack of an Invulnerable save on it.
There are also 2 other Hive Tyrants. The close-combat Tyrant and the walking Tyrant (or walkrant). The cc-tyrant isn't really an optimal load-out because, once again, the lack of a Invulnerable save in close combat is a weakness when going up against enemy dedicated assault units. Also, if the cc-tyrant kills the enemy on the wrong turn (i.e. kills it on the Tyrant's turn), then he is open to getting shot at while on the ground by then enemy. In a competitive Tyranid army, there is no question that the shooty tyrant outclasses the cc-tyrant. The shooty tyrant can contribute to the Tyranid offense without putting itself at unnecessary risk, whereas the cc-tyrant cannot contribute to the Tyranid offense unless it puts itself at risk.
The walkrant can be used as an anchor to a primarily ground-based Tyranid force. He can be quite survivable if you attach some Tyrant Guards to it. However, this type of tyrant lacks the mobility of the flyrant and, as a result, lacks flexibility as well. It takes him longer to contribute (whereas the flyrant can contribute right away) and also allows the enemy more time to shoot at it and its army while it slowly marches up towards the enemy. You could put the walkrant in a Tyrannocyte spore to give him some mobility, but if you do so, then you will be better off putting the Swarmlord or a dakkafex in there instead. From a competitive standpoint, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to take a walkrant over a flyrant.
Grades: A+ (dakka flyrant), B (shooty walkrant), C (cc-flyrant), D (cc-walkrant)
Unyielding Hunger wrote: You know, I think I can get behind EggNids. Now however, I think we need to look at something rather outdated Jy2. You know, do you mind if I just call you Jim, I realize I have never actually bothered to ask you that. Anyhow, looking at all the changes that have happened to us, I believe that we need to update the first post to give a far more up to date read on just how Tyranids stand.
But now onto more important things. I understand that we finally have most of the items to make a wide range of fairly viable lists, and Tyranids seem to be the most adaptable army now which I truly enjoy. So, let me ask you guys this; How many different themed lists do you feel you could possibly build now and feel like you could take it to a tournament with no mixed feelings? IE, EggNids, Nidzilla, GribNids, Skyblight, all this, all that, etc, etc?
Sure, you can call me by my name.
Yeah, I agree. The opening thread does need some updating, and I'll probably need the help of the people here. I don't really have the time to write a comprehensive review of all of the units here, but if I break it up into sections and people volunteer to help write them by units, I think we can get it done over time. Rather than focusing on some of the units, I think this major tactica should feature all of the units - including new units, formations and even Lords of War. If anyone wants to volunteer on writing up any of the units, just say so on this thread. Then I will take over write-up duties for any and all units that no one has volunteered for.
The unit write-ups, please include the following:
How does this unit fit in a Tyranid army: What is it's role? What is perhaps the best configuration for the unit. Can we somehow use it to enhance the army (and if so, then how?), or is there absolutely no redeeming quality to it at all? Why should we take it in our army (if we should take it at all)? What are its weaknesses?
Grade: Use an A to F system, with A being a superstar, B= good, C = average, D = bad, and F = this unit sucks hard. You can add + or - to the grading if you want (i.e. A+ = mega-superstar, A- = excellent, B+ = very good, B- = good enough to be somewhat useful, C+ = somewhat above-average unit, etc.).
Here's an example:
Hive Tyrant:
The Hive Tyrant is the heart of the competitive Tyranid army, especially when you give him wings and some guns. He works best with Wings, 2x twin-linked Brainleech Devourers and Electroshock Grubs. He is a major force-multiplier that helps the Tyranid army in so many categories, including:
1. Reliable anti-tank with Devourers and Electroshock Grubs.
2. Excellent mobility as a flying monstrous creature. Can threaten enemy targets almost anywhere on the table.
3. Mobile Synapse.
4. Psychic support for the army.
5. He is a major offensive threat in the army and the best shooter in the army.
6. The best anti-air offense in the army.
7. Bullet magnet that can soak up a lot of enemy firepower and still survive. This helps to make the rest of the army more survivable.
The major weakness of the shooty flyrant is that he will have problems against 2+ save units due to the lack of AP2 shooting. He is also mediocre in Assault. He can beat non-dedicated assault units, but you really don't want him getting into combat with any dedicated assault units due to a lack of an Invulnerable save on it.
There are also 2 other Hive Tyrants. The close-combat Tyrant and the walking Tyrant (or walkrant). The cc-tyrant isn't really an optimal load-out because, once again, the lack of a Invulnerable save in close combat is a weakness when going up against enemy dedicated assault units. Also, if the cc-tyrant kills the enemy on the wrong turn (i.e. kills it on the Tyrant's turn), then he is open to getting shot at while on the ground by then enemy. In a competitive Tyranid army, there is no question that the shooty tyrant outclasses the cc-tyrant. The shooty tyrant can contribute to the Tyranid offense without putting itself at unnecessary risk, whereas the cc-tyrant cannot contribute to the Tyranid offense unless it puts itself at risk.
The walkrant can be used as an anchor to a primarily ground-based Tyranid force. He can be quite survivable if you attach some Tyrant Guards to it. However, this type of tyrant lacks the mobility of the flyrant and, as a result, lacks flexibility as well. It takes him longer to contribute (whereas the flyrant can contribute right away) and also allows the enemy more time to shoot at it and its army while it slowly marches up towards the enemy. You could put the walkrant in a Tyrannocyte spore to give him some mobility, but if you do so, then you will be better off putting the Swarmlord or a dakkafex in there instead. From a competitive standpoint, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to take a walkrant over a flyrant.
Grades: A+ (dakka flyrant), B (shooty walkrant), C (cc-flyrant), D (cc-walkrant)
Hormagaunts are usually seen as an alternative to the deep striking rippers as mandatory troops. Depending on your list composition of heavy hitters you may want those guys in.
Alternatively you can go out all out on Hgaunts and TGants and play an horde style list.
Following here is a list of things you want to consider when talking about Hgaunts:
1. Hormagaunts may look like a cheap troop, but they actually are not. Remember that nids have Tgants, rippers and Mucolids for a cheaper troop choice. Take these guys only if you have a real reason, if not then there are better mandatory troops.
2. Hormagaunts are fast. Not as fast as beasts or jump infantry, but for their cost they are indeed fast between fleet and leap. They will get into assault range by turn 2 many times.
3. Do not expect vanilla hormagaunts to provide damage, that is not their role. They will make a mess out of certain units, but that will not happen commonly.
With that said why would you take Hgaunts, what is their intended role? Well at this point it is necessary to distinguish between vanilla hormagaunts and upgraded hormagaunts.
Vanillla hormagaunts are the most commonly used and are great for screening, tarpitting, objective grabbing and assault linking.
1) Screening: Since the rule clarification that you don't need to be 25% covered by a model to get the cover save but a toe in a ripper will suffice, these guys became an interesting alternative to the more commonly used screeners. While they cost 25% more than Tgants, they will never risk to slow down your dakkafex/exocrine/whatever. At the same time they cost 16% less than gargoyles (and are obj sec). Remember to bring a shroud source with you when doing this, or the hormagaunts will be an even better target than a dakkafex for the bolters on a point per average wound basis.
2) Tarpitting: When tarpitting with nids it is either gargoiles or hormagaunts. Luckily both of them are really good at this. Gargoiles are better due to the jump infantry type and the blinding venom even if they cost more. If you want pure tarpitting go for them. Take hormagaunts if you also need them for their other roles.
3) Objective grabbing: Here the best are the deepstriking rippers. Cheaper, easier to hide and deepstriking. Hormagaunts are close second though, with the highest speed between our obj sec troops and an high model count for conga lining.
4) Assault linking: This is where Hgaunts are the best. Assault a model with a slaughter unit (Dimacherion, Carnifex, Toxicrene etc..) and at the same time multi assault that model and another unit with a unit of hormagaunts. You will get 2 benefits: first your hormagaunts will eat up the overwatch and secondly when that inital assaulted model gets slaughtered you force an harsh leadership check on the second unit while in meele with an high initiative unit. Remember that glancing and penetrating hits count for resolution and tanks are indeed the best initial targets for this maneuver. Hgaunts have fleet and high initiative for a low cost, which makes them better at this than Tgants and Gargoiles.
As you see they are not the best at anything but they are a good second choice for all of those roles, with the point 4 being an exception but it is an uncommon occurance (but can win games, keep an eye out for it). So if you need just mandatory troops or strongly need one role in particular skip Hgaunts. If you need an all round troop choice than can be spent in any of those roles then consider Hgaunts.
Upgraded Hormagaunts are almost never seen and there is a reson. They cost! For a 1W T3 6+ model they can get to ridiculous costs. That said:
a) If you need anti rear AV 10 and can't honestly get anything better then AG Hgaunts can be an option. They are fairly good at it, but will bleed points like mad when targeted.
b) If you expect to face high T targets like WKnights or Nurgle babies then consider Venom Hgaunts. If you can get them on their favorite target then they can get to tear jerking efficiency, if not they will again be point bleeders at the smallest sign of enemy fire.
c) Do not consider AG + Venom Gaunts. Never.
Grades: C (Vanilla Hormagaunts), D (Single upgrade Hgaunts) E (Double Upgrade Hormagaunts)
In case anyone was worried-this was posted in the N&R thread. It appears the Tyrannocyte doesn't use the top of the Mucolid(as a lot of us already assumed), so it'll be easy to get a Mucolid and a Tyrannocyte out of the same box. Perhaps eBay will sell the tops cheap as well.
Lord Scythican wrote: Just a quick shout out for people with Mucolid woes. I am making Tyrannocytes out of the newly released kit and using green stuff to replace the missing tentacles for the Mucolids. Stop by my WIP thread for some coverage:
I have done one for Carnifexes. I followed a Green, Amber, Red system for weapons and biomorphs to say which ones would be most viable in a competitive setting. Proof reading/critique by others would be appreciated. I am happy to edit this post if people have suggestions or builds (or to completely re-write it )
I've not included Formations with Carnifexes in, I think they could have their own section within the OP.
Spoiler:
Carnifexes Background When one thinks of a Tyranid army, one of the first models to come to mind is the Carnifex. One of the most iconic Tyranid models to be in existance, especially in 4th edition where Carnifexes could also be taken in Elites. As fifth edition came out, they became redundant with the arrival of the new Trygon and lack of option to be taken as an Elite and slowly started to gather dust. Following the arrival of 6th edition, Carnifexes were hailed as one of the shining stars of the Codex, getting a notable points decrease as well as being able to take multiples in a brood, opening up Heavy Support options. As 7th edition rolled out they came to be the only Monstrous Creature in the Tyranid Codex that wasn't nerfed by the changes to Smash, making use of it's standard base 9 Strength to deal with anything that comes across its path.
Competitive Setting A Carnifex Brood uses one of the Heavy Support slots in a Tyranid army. It follows a standard TMC statline, with WS3, BS3, T6 with a 3+ Armour Save. As it does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it will revert to Instinctive Behaviour outside of Synapse, of which the Carnifex rolls on the Feed table. Where the Carnifex starts to differ is that it only has 4 Wounds, making it not as durable as other TMC's and is Initiative 2, meaning that it strikes at the same speed as the lowly Ork and is out sped by anything that isn't a Power Fist or equivalent. However, where it lacks in speed, it makes up for in sheer brutality, sporting 3 attacks at base S9. Combined with it's Living Battering Ram special rule that grants it D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks instead of one, this makes it one of the premier options that Tyranids have for opening AV13/14.
Melee Weapons Scything Talons - Carnifexes come equipped with two pairs of Scything Talons. Although being nerfed, they do allow for customization of a Carnifex by exchanging a pair for Wargear upgrades. For those that want to keep Carnifexes cheap, this is a good option. Crushing Claws - Crushing Claws grants a Carnifex S10 in Close Combat (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), allowing it to Instant Kill T5 as well as giving it the Armourbane USR, making it more likely to Penetrate AV13-14. For Carnifexes designed for vehicle hunting, this is a good option.
Monstrous Bio-Cannons Twin-Linked Deathspitter - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Deathspitter, granting it three 18" TL shots at S5 AP5. This is not very good, especially when taken in context, it is outclassed by another Monstrous Biocannon. This is a bad option. Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech worms - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Devourer with Brainleech Worms, granting it six 18" TL shots at S6 AP-. This allows a Carnifex to be multi-purpose, wounding Infantry through number of shots, as well as Light Armour and in emergencies, ground based AA. This is a good option. Stranglethorn Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Stranglethorn Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S6 AP5 Large Blast, Pinning Shot. The Stranglethorn Cannon may only be taken once per model and may not be taken with the Heavy Venom Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to act as a Infantry killer and support smaller Tyranids by potentially making it harder to shoot at them. However, with a Carnifexes bad Ballistic Skill, it might scatter off the target and is in general, outclassed by Biovores, who give three Large Blast Templates at a large ranger for the price of a standard Carnifex. This is a bad option. Heavy Venom Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Heavy Venom Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S9 AP4 Blast. Only one Heavy Venom Cannon may be taken per model and may not be taken with the Stranglethorn Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to fire a single S9 shot before it charges a vehicle, making it easier to wreck vehicles, as well as Instant Killing T4. For Carnifexes designed for Vehicles-hunting, this could be the last glancing hit you need to wreck that vehicle. This is a decent option.
Biomorphs Toxin Sacs A Carnifex with Toxin Sacs has the Poisoned USR. This, combined with the natural S9 of the Carnifex, will normally allow it to re-roll failed to Wound rolls. However, the Carnifex only has 3 attacks base and WS3, meaning you might not get to make use of the re-roll to wounds. This is a decent option. Acid Blood A Carnifex with Acid Blood the ability to inflict a S5 AP2 hit per unsaved wound in Close Combat. This looks quite good, until you realise the Carnifex only has four Wounds, as well as the opponent having to take an Initiative before the hit can apply. This is a bad option. Adrenal Glands. A Carnifex with Adrenal Glands has the Fleet and Furious Charge USR. This allows a Carnifex to have S10 on the charge (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), as well as re-roll Run and Charge distances. This makes getting into combat much easier and combined with the Onslaught Psychic Power, allows Carnifexes to get into position quickly to start firing any Ranged Weapons they have. This is a good option. Regeneration. A Carnifex with Regeneration has the ability to regain lost wounds at the end of the game turn on a 4+. This looks promising, until one realizes it is the least durable Monstrous Creature that Tyranids have, on virtue of it having the fewest amount of Wounds (aside the Hive Tyrant, which can mitigate this with the Catalyst Psychic Power and Wings for a FMC profile) and only has a 3+ armour save coupled with it's Toughness characteristic of 6, meaning it can be focused fired down before it can make use of Regeneration. This is a bad option.
Tail Biomorphs Thresher Scythe - A Carnifex with a Thresher Scythe may make an additional S4 AP4 attack with the Rending special rule in close combat. Considering that the Carnifex that is in combat is usually geared for vehicle killing, this is not likely to help. This is a bad option. Bone Mace - A Carnifex with a Bone Mace may make an additional S8 AP - attack in close combat. They cost the same as Crushing Claws which will more reliably open vehicles, but if you feel that you are not destroying vehicles enough, it grants additional attack that may cause that final glancing hit. This is a decent option.
Options Additional Carnifexes - a Carnifex Brood may take up to two more Carnifexes. This allows a Tyranid player to shift Carnifexes around for Wound allocation purposes making the brood more durable, as well as have more Carnifexes without using up the Heavy Support slots. Any Carnifex brood consisting of two or three Carnifexes can not make use of the Tyrannocyte, making this option a speed vs durability argument.It is important to note however, that any Carnifex Brood with two or three models, are vulnerable to the harshest Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table. For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option. For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option. Spine Banks - A Carnifex with Spine Banks may fire one 8" shot at S3 AP- Blast and is treated as having Assault Grenades. This is generally not worth it as the damage output is so low and Carnifexes have a low Initiative to begin with. This is a bad option. Bio-Plasma - A Carnifex with Bio=Plasma may fire one 12" shot at S7 AP2 Blast. This is better than Spine Banks as you can wound a lot more stuff. It is still a bit pricey however and for thirty points more, one can purchase an Exocrine, which has a larger blast or six shots at double the range and when stationary, a better BS. This is a decent option.
Transport Tyrannocyte As soon as the Tyrannocyte was announced, there was much rejoicing amongst Tyranid players. Tyrannocytes give much needed speed to Tyranids, which allows Carnifexes to move up even faster than before. Note that only one MC model can embark the Tyrannocyte upon deployment. Tyrannocytes work best when a model can immedietly do something upon deployment, such as shoot or provide Synapse so is not the best option for all Carnifexes. For single Carnifexes with Ranged Weapons, this is a good option. For single Carnifexes with Melee only weapons, this is a decent option. For Carnifexes with long range weapons (HVC or SC) or broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms - can be taken alone to fit in a Tyrannocyte or in multiples for more firepower, this type of Carnifex, known as the 'Dakkafex' spits out a large number of shots which shave wounds off units. Adrenal Glands are an optional extra to allow it to more reliable deal with vehicles or move into position. Carnifex w/ Scything Talons, Crushing Claws - This type of Carnifex commonly has two more standard Carnifexes for ablative wounds, as they move up the battlefield looking for the highest AV vehicles and destroying them with ease. Adrenal Glands are not a necessity as the Crushing Claws variant can reliably deal with high AV vehicles and you normally have ablative wounds for your Crushing Claws Carnifex. Carnifex w/ 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - The 'Screamer-Killer' is a basic Carnifex. It can either be taken in multiples for more Wounds to chew through, or as a single unit
Stone Crusher Carnifexes From Forge World, Stone Crusher Carnifexes are even stronger than regular Carnifexes, boasting S10 on their base statline. This becomes even better when you consider the fact they also have Living Battery Ram, as well as their own special rules, Wrecker, Sunder and Carapace Chitin-rams. This gives all Hammer of Wrath attacks Armourbane and Monster Hunter, meaning they can put wounds on MC and vehicles alike. Wrecker and Sunder is what really sets them apart from Carnifexes, they are allowed to re-roll all failed Armour Penetration rolls, as well as add one to the result if against immobile structures and fortifications (on top of the +2 granted by the Wrecker Claws AP1 value) when using their Wrecker Claws. Although the Stone Wrecker Carnifex has less attacks than the Carnifex (two compared to three) any attack that goes through is more than likely going to cause an Explodes! result. As a trade off for their close combat power, they have no access to Monstrous Biocannons.
While having an identical profile to the Carnifex (Trading an attack for Strength 10 aside), they are more durable then Carnifexes, due to their Reinforced Caraspace special rule, which makes any shooting attacks resolved against a Stone Crusher Carnifex reduce their Strength by one. Essentially, this means the Stone Crusher Carnifex is T7 against shooting attacks (note this does not apply to close combat attacks).
Stone Crusher Carnifexes upgrades Additional Stone Crusher Carnifexes - like regular Carnifexes, additional Carnifexes may be taken for Wound allocation purposes. Considering that they are Toughness 7 against shooting attacks, this will prolong the life of Stone Crusher Carnifexes considerably. As mentioned in the Tyrannocyte entry for Carnifexes, models that can do something upon Deep Strike arrival are good. Stone Crusher Carnifexes have the durability to run up the field and bear the brunt of most weapons, especially with Shrouded support. Note that broads of two or more Stone Crusher Carnifexes are vulnerable to the worst result on the Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table. For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option. For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Stone Wrecker Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option. Spine Banks - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles. This is a bad option. Bio-Plasma -Generally not worth it since a Stone Wrecker Carnifex does not want to be targetting Infantry. This is a bad option. Thresher Scythe - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles. This is a bad option. Bone Mace - Unlike regular Carnifexes, Stone Wrecker Carnifexes do not require help destroying vehicles. This is a bad option. Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail replaces their ability to re-roll amour penetration on their regular attacks with the ability to cause Instant Death and gain a new rule, Sweep Attack. Sweep Attack allows a model to replace all their attacks with a number of attacks equal to the number of enemy models in base contact with them. This allows a Stone Crusher Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail to generate more attacks and stops it being tarpitted as easily, while the trade off is that they may find it harder to destroy vehicles. For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of two or three models, this is a good option. For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of one model, this is a decent option.
Transport Much like a regular Carnifex, a single Stone Crusher Carnifex can embark on a Tyrannocyte. However, a Stone Wrecker Carnifex has more durability than a regular Carnifex and can forgo a Transport in favour of running up. Note however, that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex can not usse Adrenal Glands at all, so it is still quite slow in that regard, meaning the Tyrannocyte can provide the speed that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex needs in order to do damage. For single Stone Wrecker Carnifexes, this is a good option. For Stone Wrecker Carnifex broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claws - A standard Stone Wrecker Carnifex does a fine job of destroying vehicles without any upgrades. Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail should only be taken in groups of two or more, as it prevents a heavily points invested unit being tarpitted easily.
Conclusion and Overall Rating
Carnifex Overall rating = A- The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids. The Carnifex can be kitted out for different roles, making it a multi-purpose unit, which is useful in the case that you may not always be playing against vehicles. The Carnifex just falls short of being an all-star by a reliance on Synapse to function well, as well as requiring support from other Tyranids to provide it with a cover save, or to simply draw fire away from it as it is fragile in comparison to other TMCs.
Stone Crusher Carnifex Overall Rating = B While the Stone Crusher Carnifex is the best answer Tyranids have to heavy vehicle duties, it's role is very linear and does not allow much adaptability. It also suffers from requiring Synapse to be effective and even with pseudo Toughness 7, is still quite vulnerable to volume of fire with only four wounds.
One thing you may want to mention in that Carnifex review is the fact that spine banks are the only way to get assault grenades on them. Also, when run in groups of 3, you fire them on a per model basis rather than per unit, so it can do some decent damage. Also, you forgot Old One Eye.
I think I will handle...Pyrovores, Tyranid Warriors, Shrikes, and Tyranid Primes.
Thank you for that Unyielding Hunger, missed that on Spine Banks (although tbf, Carnifex is at I2 anyway, so it doesn't benefit all that much).
I'm pretty sure that a unit of three Carnifexes has to fire at the same thing, since they are part of the same unit (there is a formation that grants them Split Fire though).
Yeah taking out Klaws and fists before they hit is always nice. Also hitting at the same time as Necrons scythes is never a bad thing (not that you want to do that, damn those scarabs)
Hornagant proved me a victory many time and outrun my genestealer against space marine. My vanilla gant is 10 point more than termagant yeah.. But that mean hornagant gain +1 attack dice. Don't forgot charge bonus and with a Dice God are on your side - Rage!
That mean for 10 hornagant- 50 pts.
At least 30 dice per assult. If hornagant charge first then at least 40 dice! Against ten men in power armour.. Good bye marine!
Compare that to termagant- range weapon with ten dice for assult ( don't want to charge with this minion!). That all!
Automatically Appended Next Post: At least no no no... Up to! Oops.
40 dice (if you Rage, which is unlikely).
20 hits.
10 wounds.
3 failed saves.
And then next turn it's 20 dice, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 failed save.
The Tac squad (ignoring the sarge being different) will swing 7 times, wound 4 times, and you'll fail 3-4 saves. So on the charge with Rage (best case scenario) you'll tie or lose combat.
rigeld2 wrote: 40 dice (if you Rage, which is unlikely).
20 hits.
10 wounds.
3 failed saves.
And then next turn it's 20 dice, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 failed save.
The Tac squad (ignoring the sarge being different) will swing 7 times, wound 4 times, and you'll fail 3-4 saves. So on the charge with Rage (best case scenario) you'll tie or lose combat.
Yeah, that's good.
Don't belive in computer brains, belive in Dice God!
Also, if you want to make changes to your unit write-ups, just post the complete re-write on this thread or PM me and I will make the corrections/edits (more like copy and paste them ) onto p. 1 of the main tactica.
HQ
Hive Tyrant - jy2 Deathleaper - jy2 Old One Eye - jy2 Swarmlord - ductvader Tervigon - Frozocrone Tyranid Prime - Unyielding Hunger Tyrant Guard - Unyielding Hunger
Rising Leviathan II Endless Swarm
Incubator Node
Living Artillery Node
Skyblight Swarm
Synaptic Swarm
Rising Leviathan III Bioblast Node
Living Tide
Subterranean Swarm
Tyrant Node
Wrecker Node
Shields of Baal Skytyrant Swarm
Neural Node
Hypertoxic Node
Spore Field
Skytide
Hive Fleet Leviathan
BIOMORPHS/WARGEAR
Bio-artefacts - Sinful Hero
Let me know which you want to volunteer for and I will update this list. Or you could just post the review of the unit directly onto this thread and I will update the list and also the main tactica on p.1.
rigeld2 wrote: 40 dice (if you Rage, which is unlikely).
20 hits.
10 wounds.
3 failed saves.
And then next turn it's 20 dice, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 failed save.
The Tac squad (ignoring the sarge being different) will swing 7 times, wound 4 times, and you'll fail 3-4 saves. So on the charge with Rage (best case scenario) you'll tie or lose combat.
Yeah, that's good.
Don't belive in computer brains, belive in Dice God!
rigeld2 wrote: 40 dice (if you Rage, which is unlikely).
20 hits.
10 wounds.
3 failed saves.
And then next turn it's 20 dice, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 failed save.
The Tac squad (ignoring the sarge being different) will swing 7 times, wound 4 times, and you'll fail 3-4 saves. So on the charge with Rage (best case scenario) you'll tie or lose combat.
Yeah, that's good.
Don't belive in computer brains, belive in Dice God!
My roll,
Could you please come to where I live and make all my dice rolls
The Pyrovore has long been infamous as quite possibly the worst unit in the codex and the game at large. Happily, that is no longer the case, and it serves as a fairly loose middle road.
1. It has reliable firepower for clearing objectives and hordes.
2. It benefits from the Promethium relay, which can support it in either a defensive or offensive capacity.
The major weakness of the Pyrovore lies in its mobility. Unfortunately, the Pyrovore just happens to be an incredibly slow moving platform with very little in the way for options to get around faster. However, once kitted out with some transportation, they can actually become far more effective. Each of them is armed with a heavy flamer, so going after hordes is generally the most commonly accepted method of use, however they can also get a good bit of mileage out of going after dedicated assault units. Setting a nice juicy unit of Terminators on fire is going to make back a fair portion of its points back, and then the terminators are going to have to consider the following. Do I assault 3 flamers and take 3d3 automatic overwatch hits, or ignore them and get flamed every turn?
The only reliable transport options for Pyrovores are to take Trygon tunnels or hitching a ride inside a pod. Now, taking a pod is cheaper than the Trygon and waiting subsequent turns and gives it more time on the field to earn back points. It also seems to be the much better tactic in that you can hug it and force your opponent into a multi-assault. Eating a nest of devourers plus a group of 3 flamers in overwatch is going to be a bit much for most standard units that these things will be pitted against and it should allow you to either kill or tarpit the unit for several turns.
Promethium Relays will give your Pyrovores some range, but these fortifications are stationary and as long as your opponent avoids it, there is very little your Pyrovores can do to help make back points. This would only be recommended in a defensive scenario.
Grades: C (Podvores), D (Tunvores), D (Promvores), F (Vanilla)
Hormagaunts are usually seen as an alternative to the deep striking rippers as mandatory troops. Depending on your list composition of heavy hitters you may want those guys in.
Alternatively you can go out all out on Hgaunts and TGants and play an horde style list.
Following here is a list of things you want to consider when talking about Hgaunts:
1. Hormagaunts may look like a cheap troop, but they actually are not. Remember that nids have Tgants, rippers and Mucolids for a cheaper troop choice. Take these guys only if you have a real reason, if not then there are better mandatory troops.
2. Hormagaunts are fast. Not as fast as beasts or jump infantry, but for their cost they are indeed fast between fleet and leap. They will get into assault range by turn 2 many times.
3. Do not expect vanilla hormagaunts to provide damage, that is not their role. They will make a mess out of certain units, but that will not happen commonly.
With that said why would you take Hgaunts, what is their intended role? Well at this point it is necessary to distinguish between vanilla hormagaunts and upgraded hormagaunts.
Vanillla hormagaunts are the most commonly used and are great for screening, tarpitting, objective grabbing and assault linking.
1) Screening: Since the rule clarification that you don't need to be 25% covered by a model to get the cover save but a toe in a ripper will suffice, these guys became an interesting alternative to the more commonly used screeners. While they cost 25% more than Tgants, they will never risk to slow down your dakkafex/exocrine/whatever. At the same time they cost 16% less than gargoyles (and are obj sec). Remember to bring a shroud source with you when doing this, or the hormagaunts will be an even better target than a dakkafex for the bolters on a point per average wound basis.
2) Tarpitting: When tarpitting with nids it is either gargoiles or hormagaunts. Luckily both of them are really good at this. Gargoiles are better due to the jump infantry type and the blinding venom even if they cost more. If you want pure tarpitting go for them. Take hormagaunts if you also need them for their other roles.
3) Objective grabbing: Here the best are the deepstriking rippers. Cheaper, easier to hide and deepstriking. Hormagaunts are close second though, with the highest speed between our obj sec troops and an high model count for conga lining.
4) Assault linking: This is where Hgaunts are the best. Assault a model with a slaughter unit (Dimacherion, Carnifex, Toxicrene etc..) and at the same time multi assault that model and another unit with a unit of hormagaunts. You will get 2 benefits: first your hormagaunts will eat up the overwatch and secondly when that inital assaulted model gets slaughtered you force an harsh leadership check on the second unit while in meele with an high initiative unit. Remember that glancing and penetrating hits count for resolution and tanks are indeed the best initial targets for this maneuver. Hgaunts have fleet and high initiative for a low cost, which makes them better at this than Tgants and Gargoiles.
As you see they are not the best at anything but they are a good second choice for all of those roles, with the point 4 being an exception but it is an uncommon occurance (but can win games, keep an eye out for it). So if you need just mandatory troops or strongly need one role in particular skip Hgaunts. If you need an all round troop choice than can be spent in any of those roles then consider Hgaunts.
Upgraded Hormagaunts are almost never seen and there is a reson. They cost! For a 1W T3 6+ model they can get to ridiculous costs. That said:
a) If you need anti rear AV 10 and can't honestly get anything better then AG Hgaunts can be an option. They are fairly good at it, but will bleed points like mad when targeted.
b) If you expect to face high T targets like WKnights or Nurgle babies then consider Venom Hgaunts. If you can get them on their favorite target then they can get to tear jerking efficiency, if not they will again be point bleeders at the smallest sign of enemy fire.
c) Do not consider AG + Venom Gaunts. Never.
Grades: C (Vanilla Hormagaunts), D (Single upgrade Hgaunts) E (Double Upgrade Hormagaunts)
Oh wow, just had a glimpse of the Shield of Baal's Hive Fleet detachment.
Bear in mind that this was posted on a facebook group I am part off, but still, 3 Flyrants in one detachment is legit and you get to re-roll the potentially nasty IB. Kind of a bummer that Tyranids don't get access to a Fortification with this detachment, so no Bastion Malanthrope to hide Flyrants turn one. Warlord traits are at least, better than the one in the Codex, considering that if you take your Warlord from this detachment you have to roll on Hive Fleet Leviathan Warlord Traits Table.
I am really interested in formations, but I can't get pictures of them at the moment. Only know the names are 'Skyblight Swarm', 'Skytyrant Swarm', 'Neural Node', 'Hypertoxic Node', 'Spore Field' and 'Skytide' (that last one is probably a combination of all five, much like DE Carnival of Pain).
Frozocrone wrote: Oh wow, just had a glimpse of the Shield of Baal's Hive Fleet detachment. I am really interested in formations, but I can't get pictures of them at the moment. Only know the names are 'Skyblight Swarm', 'Skytyrant Swarm', 'Neural Node', 'Hypertoxic Node', 'Spore Field' and 'Skytide' (that last one is probably a combination of all five, much like DE Carnival of Pain).
Thoughts?
Skyblight Swarm - Probably a reprint of Skyblight
Skytyrant Swarm - Most Likely a 2-3 Flyrant swarm
Neural Node - Most likely a combination of Zoanthropes, Nuerothropes, and Malceptors.
Hypertoxic Node - All Venomthropes and Toxicrenes.
Spore Field - Most likely an all spore mine, sporecyst, mucolid formation.
Skytide - Most likely all flying with Endless Swarm.
Frozocrone wrote: I have done one for Carnifexes. I followed a Green, Amber, Red system for weapons and biomorphs to say which ones would be most viable in a competitive setting. Proof reading/critique by others would be appreciated. I am happy to edit this post if people have suggestions or builds (or to completely re-write it )
I've not included Formations with Carnifexes in, I think they could have their own section within the OP.
Spoiler:
Carnifexes Background When one thinks of a Tyranid army, one of the first models to come to mind is the Carnifex. One of the most iconic Tyranid models to be in existance, especially in 4th edition where Carnifexes could also be taken in Elites. As fifth edition came out, they became redundant with the arrival of the new Trygon and lack of option to be taken as an Elite and slowly started to gather dust. Following the arrival of 6th edition, Carnifexes were hailed as one of the shining stars of the Codex, getting a notable points decrease as well as being able to take multiples in a brood, opening up Heavy Support options. As 7th edition rolled out they came to be the only Monstrous Creature in the Tyranid Codex that wasn't nerfed by the changes to Smash, making use of it's standard base 9 Strength to deal with anything that comes across its path.
Competitive Setting A Carnifex Brood uses one of the Heavy Support slots in a Tyranid army. It follows a standard TMC statline, with WS3, BS3, T6 with a 3+ Armour Save. As it does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it will revert to Instinctive Behaviour outside of Synapse, of which the Carnifex rolls on the Feed table. Where the Carnifex starts to differ is that it only has 4 Wounds, making it not as durable as other TMC's and is Initiative 2, meaning that it strikes at the same speed as the lowly Ork and is out sped by anything that isn't a Power Fist or equivalent. However, where it lacks in speed, it makes up for in sheer brutality, sporting 3 attacks at base S9. Combined with it's Living Battering Ram special rule that grants it D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks instead of one, this makes it one of the premier options that Tyranids have for opening AV13/14.
Melee Weapons Scything Talons - Carnifexes come equipped with two pairs of Scything Talons. Although being nerfed, they do allow for customization of a Carnifex by exchanging a pair for Wargear upgrades.
For those that want to keep Carnifexes cheap, this is a good option.
Crushing Claws - Crushing Claws grants a Carnifex S10 in Close Combat (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), allowing it to Instant Kill T5 as well as giving it the Armourbane USR, making it more likely to Penetrate AV13-14.
For Carnifexes designed for vehicle hunting, this is a good option.
Monstrous Bio-Cannons Twin-Linked Deathspitter - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Deathspitter, granting it three 18" TL shots at S5 AP5. This is not very good, especially when taken in context, it is outclassed by another Monstrous Biocannon.
This is a bad option.
Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech worms - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Devourer with Brainleech Worms, granting it six 18" TL shots at S6 AP-. This allows a Carnifex to be multi-purpose, wounding Infantry through number of shots, as well as Light Armour and in emergencies, ground based AA.
This is a good option.
Stranglethorn Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Stranglethorn Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S6 AP5 Large Blast, Pinning Shot. The Stranglethorn Cannon may only be taken once per model and may not be taken with the Heavy Venom Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to act as a Infantry killer and support smaller Tyranids by potentially making it harder to shoot at them. However, with a Carnifexes bad Ballistic Skill, it might scatter off the target and is in general, outclassed by Biovores, who give three Large Blast Templates at a large ranger for the price of a standard Carnifex.
This is a bad option.
Heavy Venom Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Heavy Venom Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S9 AP4 Blast. Only one Heavy Venom Cannon may be taken per model and may not be taken with the Stranglethorn Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to fire a single S9 shot before it charges a vehicle, making it easier to wreck vehicles, as well as Instant Killing T4. For Carnifexes designed for Vehicles-hunting, this could be the last glancing hit you need to wreck that vehicle.
This is a decent option.
Biomorphs Toxin Sacs A Carnifex with Toxin Sacs has the Poisoned USR. This, combined with the natural S9 of the Carnifex, will normally allow it to re-roll failed to Wound rolls. However, the Carnifex only has 3 attacks base and WS3, meaning you might not get to make use of the re-roll to wounds.
This is a decent option.
Acid Blood A Carnifex with Acid Blood the ability to inflict a S5 AP2 hit per unsaved wound in Close Combat. This looks quite good, until you realise the Carnifex only has four Wounds, as well as the opponent having to take an Initiative before the hit can apply.
This is a bad option.
Adrenal Glands. A Carnifex with Adrenal Glands has the Fleet and Furious Charge USR. This allows a Carnifex to have S10 on the charge (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), as well as re-roll Run and Charge distances. This makes getting into combat much easier and combined with the Onslaught Psychic Power, allows Carnifexes to get into position quickly to start firing any Ranged Weapons they have.
This is a good option.
Regeneration. A Carnifex with Regeneration has the ability to regain lost wounds at the end of the game turn on a 4+. This looks promising, until one realizes it is the least durable Monstrous Creature that Tyranids have, on virtue of it having the fewest amount of Wounds (aside the Hive Tyrant, which can mitigate this with the Catalyst Psychic Power and Wings for a FMC profile) and only has a 3+ armour save coupled with it's Toughness characteristic of 6, meaning it can be focused fired down before it can make use of Regeneration.
This is a bad option.
Tail Biomorphs Thresher Scythe - A Carnifex with a Thresher Scythe may make an additional S4 AP4 attack with the Rending special rule in close combat. Considering that the Carnifex that is in combat is usually geared for vehicle killing, this is not likely to help.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - A Carnifex with a Bone Mace may make an additional S8 AP - attack in close combat. They cost the same as Crushing Claws which will more reliably open vehicles, but if you feel that you are not destroying vehicles enough, it grants additional attack that may cause that final glancing hit.
This is a decent option.
Options Additional Carnifexes - a Carnifex Brood may take up to two more Carnifexes. This allows a Tyranid player to shift Carnifexes around for Wound allocation purposes making the brood more durable, as well as have more Carnifexes without using up the Heavy Support slots. Any Carnifex brood consisting of two or three Carnifexes can not make use of the Tyrannocyte, making this option a speed vs durability argument.It is important to note however, that any Carnifex Brood with two or three models, are vulnerable to the harshest Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
Spine Banks - A Carnifex with Spine Banks may fire one 8" shot at S3 AP- Blast and is treated as having Assault Grenades. This is generally not worth it as the damage output is so low and Carnifexes have a low Initiative to begin with.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma - A Carnifex with Bio=Plasma may fire one 12" shot at S7 AP2 Blast. This is better than Spine Banks as you can wound a lot more stuff. It is still a bit pricey however and for thirty points more, one can purchase an Exocrine, which has a larger blast or six shots at double the range and when stationary, a better BS.
This is a decent option.
Transport Tyrannocyte As soon as the Tyrannocyte was announced, there was much rejoicing amongst Tyranid players. Tyrannocytes give much needed speed to Tyranids, which allows Carnifexes to move up even faster than before. Note that only one MC model can embark the Tyrannocyte upon deployment. Tyrannocytes work best when a model can immedietly do something upon deployment, such as shoot or provide Synapse so is not the best option for all Carnifexes.
For single Carnifexes with Ranged Weapons, this is a good option.
For single Carnifexes with Melee only weapons, this is a decent option.
For Carnifexes with long range weapons (HVC or SC) or broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms - can be taken alone to fit in a Tyrannocyte or in multiples for more firepower, this type of Carnifex, known as the 'Dakkafex' spits out a large number of shots which shave wounds off units. Adrenal Glands are an optional extra to allow it to more reliable deal with vehicles or move into position.
Carnifex w/ Scything Talons, Crushing Claws - This type of Carnifex commonly has two more standard Carnifexes for ablative wounds, as they move up the battlefield looking for the highest AV vehicles and destroying them with ease. Adrenal Glands are not a necessity as the Crushing Claws variant can reliably deal with high AV vehicles and you normally have ablative wounds for your Crushing Claws Carnifex.
Carnifex w/ 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - The 'Screamer-Killer' is a basic Carnifex. It can either be taken in multiples for more Wounds to chew through, or as a single unit
Stone Crusher Carnifexes From Forge World, Stone Crusher Carnifexes are even stronger than regular Carnifexes, boasting S10 on their base statline. This becomes even better when you consider the fact they also have Living Battery Ram, as well as their own special rules, Wrecker, Sunder and Carapace Chitin-rams. This gives all Hammer of Wrath attacks Armourbane and Monster Hunter, meaning they can put wounds on MC and vehicles alike. Wrecker and Sunder is what really sets them apart from Carnifexes, they are allowed to re-roll all failed Armour Penetration rolls, as well as add one to the result if against immobile structures and fortifications (on top of the +2 granted by the Wrecker Claws AP1 value) when using their Wrecker Claws. Although the Stone Wrecker Carnifex has less attacks than the Carnifex (two compared to three) any attack that goes through is more than likely going to cause an Explodes! result. As a trade off for their close combat power, they have no access to Monstrous Biocannons.
While having an identical profile to the Carnifex (Trading an attack for Strength 10 aside), they are more durable then Carnifexes, due to their Reinforced Caraspace special rule, which makes any shooting attacks resolved against a Stone Crusher Carnifex reduce their Strength by one. Essentially, this means the Stone Crusher Carnifex is T7 against shooting attacks (note this does not apply to close combat attacks).
Stone Crusher Carnifexes upgrades Additional Stone Crusher Carnifexes - like regular Carnifexes, additional Carnifexes may be taken for Wound allocation purposes. Considering that they are Toughness 7 against shooting attacks, this will prolong the life of Stone Crusher Carnifexes considerably. As mentioned in the Tyrannocyte entry for Carnifexes, models that can do something upon Deep Strike arrival are good. Stone Crusher Carnifexes have the durability to run up the field and bear the brunt of most weapons, especially with Shrouded support. Note that broads of two or more Stone Crusher Carnifexes are vulnerable to the worst result on the Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Stone Wrecker Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
Spine Banks - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma -Generally not worth it since a Stone Wrecker Carnifex does not want to be targetting Infantry.
This is a bad option.
Thresher Scythe - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - Unlike regular Carnifexes, Stone Wrecker Carnifexes do not require help destroying vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail replaces their ability to re-roll amour penetration on their regular attacks with the ability to cause Instant Death and gain a new rule, Sweep Attack. Sweep Attack allows a model to replace all their attacks with a number of attacks equal to the number of enemy models in base contact with them. This allows a Stone Crusher Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail to generate more attacks and stops it being tarpitted as easily, while the trade off is that they may find it harder to destroy vehicles.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of two or three models, this is a good option.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of one model, this is a decent option.
Transport Much like a regular Carnifex, a single Stone Crusher Carnifex can embark on a Tyrannocyte. However, a Stone Wrecker Carnifex has more durability than a regular Carnifex and can forgo a Transport in favour of running up. Note however, that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex can not usse Adrenal Glands at all, so it is still quite slow in that regard, meaning the Tyrannocyte can provide the speed that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex needs in order to do damage.
For single Stone Wrecker Carnifexes, this is a good option.
For Stone Wrecker Carnifex broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claws - A standard Stone Wrecker Carnifex does a fine job of destroying vehicles without any upgrades.
Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail should only be taken in groups of two or more, as it prevents a heavily points invested unit being tarpitted easily.
Conclusion and Overall Rating
Carnifex Overall rating = A-
The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids. The Carnifex can be kitted out for different roles, making it a multi-purpose unit, which is useful in the case that you may not always be playing against vehicles. The Carnifex just falls short of being an all-star by a reliance on Synapse to function well, as well as requiring support from other Tyranids to provide it with a cover save, or to simply draw fire away from it as it is fragile in comparison to other TMCs.
Stone Crusher Carnifex Overall Rating = B
While the Stone Crusher Carnifex is the best answer Tyranids have to heavy vehicle duties, it's role is very linear and does not allow much adaptability. It also suffers from requiring Synapse to be effective and even with pseudo Toughness 7, is still quite vulnerable to volume of fire with only four wounds.
Awesome review- my only gripe is to change "broods of two or more cannot take a Tyrannocyte". Just nip that in the bud now.
Frozocrone wrote: I have done one for Carnifexes. I followed a Green, Amber, Red system for weapons and biomorphs to say which ones would be most viable in a competitive setting. Proof reading/critique by others would be appreciated. I am happy to edit this post if people have suggestions or builds (or to completely re-write it )
I've not included Formations with Carnifexes in, I think they could have their own section within the OP.
Spoiler:
Carnifexes Background When one thinks of a Tyranid army, one of the first models to come to mind is the Carnifex. One of the most iconic Tyranid models to be in existance, especially in 4th edition where Carnifexes could also be taken in Elites. As fifth edition came out, they became redundant with the arrival of the new Trygon and lack of option to be taken as an Elite and slowly started to gather dust. Following the arrival of 6th edition, Carnifexes were hailed as one of the shining stars of the Codex, getting a notable points decrease as well as being able to take multiples in a brood, opening up Heavy Support options. As 7th edition rolled out they came to be the only Monstrous Creature in the Tyranid Codex that wasn't nerfed by the changes to Smash, making use of it's standard base 9 Strength to deal with anything that comes across its path.
Competitive Setting A Carnifex Brood uses one of the Heavy Support slots in a Tyranid army. It follows a standard TMC statline, with WS3, BS3, T6 with a 3+ Armour Save. As it does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it will revert to Instinctive Behaviour outside of Synapse, of which the Carnifex rolls on the Feed table. Where the Carnifex starts to differ is that it only has 4 Wounds, making it not as durable as other TMC's and is Initiative 2, meaning that it strikes at the same speed as the lowly Ork and is out sped by anything that isn't a Power Fist or equivalent. However, where it lacks in speed, it makes up for in sheer brutality, sporting 3 attacks at base S9. Combined with it's Living Battering Ram special rule that grants it D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks instead of one, this makes it one of the premier options that Tyranids have for opening AV13/14.
Melee Weapons Scything Talons - Carnifexes come equipped with two pairs of Scything Talons. Although being nerfed, they do allow for customization of a Carnifex by exchanging a pair for Wargear upgrades.
For those that want to keep Carnifexes cheap, this is a good option.
Crushing Claws - Crushing Claws grants a Carnifex S10 in Close Combat (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), allowing it to Instant Kill T5 as well as giving it the Armourbane USR, making it more likely to Penetrate AV13-14.
For Carnifexes designed for vehicle hunting, this is a good option.
Monstrous Bio-Cannons Twin-Linked Deathspitter - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Deathspitter, granting it three 18" TL shots at S5 AP5. This is not very good, especially when taken in context, it is outclassed by another Monstrous Biocannon.
This is a bad option.
Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech worms - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Devourer with Brainleech Worms, granting it six 18" TL shots at S6 AP-. This allows a Carnifex to be multi-purpose, wounding Infantry through number of shots, as well as Light Armour and in emergencies, ground based AA.
This is a good option.
Stranglethorn Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Stranglethorn Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S6 AP5 Large Blast, Pinning Shot. The Stranglethorn Cannon may only be taken once per model and may not be taken with the Heavy Venom Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to act as a Infantry killer and support smaller Tyranids by potentially making it harder to shoot at them. However, with a Carnifexes bad Ballistic Skill, it might scatter off the target and is in general, outclassed by Biovores, who give three Large Blast Templates at a large ranger for the price of a standard Carnifex.
This is a bad option.
Heavy Venom Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Heavy Venom Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S9 AP4 Blast. Only one Heavy Venom Cannon may be taken per model and may not be taken with the Stranglethorn Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to fire a single S9 shot before it charges a vehicle, making it easier to wreck vehicles, as well as Instant Killing T4. For Carnifexes designed for Vehicles-hunting, this could be the last glancing hit you need to wreck that vehicle.
This is a decent option.
Biomorphs Toxin Sacs A Carnifex with Toxin Sacs has the Poisoned USR. This, combined with the natural S9 of the Carnifex, will normally allow it to re-roll failed to Wound rolls. However, the Carnifex only has 3 attacks base and WS3, meaning you might not get to make use of the re-roll to wounds.
This is a decent option.
Acid Blood A Carnifex with Acid Blood the ability to inflict a S5 AP2 hit per unsaved wound in Close Combat. This looks quite good, until you realise the Carnifex only has four Wounds, as well as the opponent having to take an Initiative before the hit can apply.
This is a bad option.
Adrenal Glands. A Carnifex with Adrenal Glands has the Fleet and Furious Charge USR. This allows a Carnifex to have S10 on the charge (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), as well as re-roll Run and Charge distances. This makes getting into combat much easier and combined with the Onslaught Psychic Power, allows Carnifexes to get into position quickly to start firing any Ranged Weapons they have.
This is a good option.
Regeneration. A Carnifex with Regeneration has the ability to regain lost wounds at the end of the game turn on a 4+. This looks promising, until one realizes it is the least durable Monstrous Creature that Tyranids have, on virtue of it having the fewest amount of Wounds (aside the Hive Tyrant, which can mitigate this with the Catalyst Psychic Power and Wings for a FMC profile) and only has a 3+ armour save coupled with it's Toughness characteristic of 6, meaning it can be focused fired down before it can make use of Regeneration.
This is a bad option.
Tail Biomorphs Thresher Scythe - A Carnifex with a Thresher Scythe may make an additional S4 AP4 attack with the Rending special rule in close combat. Considering that the Carnifex that is in combat is usually geared for vehicle killing, this is not likely to help.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - A Carnifex with a Bone Mace may make an additional S8 AP - attack in close combat. They cost the same as Crushing Claws which will more reliably open vehicles, but if you feel that you are not destroying vehicles enough, it grants additional attack that may cause that final glancing hit.
This is a decent option.
Options Additional Carnifexes - a Carnifex Brood may take up to two more Carnifexes. This allows a Tyranid player to shift Carnifexes around for Wound allocation purposes making the brood more durable, as well as have more Carnifexes without using up the Heavy Support slots. Any Carnifex brood consisting of two or three Carnifexes can not make use of the Tyrannocyte, making this option a speed vs durability argument.It is important to note however, that any Carnifex Brood with two or three models, are vulnerable to the harshest Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
Spine Banks - A Carnifex with Spine Banks may fire one 8" shot at S3 AP- Blast and is treated as having Assault Grenades. This is generally not worth it as the damage output is so low and Carnifexes have a low Initiative to begin with.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma - A Carnifex with Bio=Plasma may fire one 12" shot at S7 AP2 Blast. This is better than Spine Banks as you can wound a lot more stuff. It is still a bit pricey however and for thirty points more, one can purchase an Exocrine, which has a larger blast or six shots at double the range and when stationary, a better BS.
This is a decent option.
Transport Tyrannocyte As soon as the Tyrannocyte was announced, there was much rejoicing amongst Tyranid players. Tyrannocytes give much needed speed to Tyranids, which allows Carnifexes to move up even faster than before. Note that only one MC model can embark the Tyrannocyte upon deployment. Tyrannocytes work best when a model can immedietly do something upon deployment, such as shoot or provide Synapse so is not the best option for all Carnifexes.
For single Carnifexes with Ranged Weapons, this is a good option.
For single Carnifexes with Melee only weapons, this is a decent option.
For Carnifexes with long range weapons (HVC or SC) or broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms - can be taken alone to fit in a Tyrannocyte or in multiples for more firepower, this type of Carnifex, known as the 'Dakkafex' spits out a large number of shots which shave wounds off units. Adrenal Glands are an optional extra to allow it to more reliable deal with vehicles or move into position.
Carnifex w/ Scything Talons, Crushing Claws - This type of Carnifex commonly has two more standard Carnifexes for ablative wounds, as they move up the battlefield looking for the highest AV vehicles and destroying them with ease. Adrenal Glands are not a necessity as the Crushing Claws variant can reliably deal with high AV vehicles and you normally have ablative wounds for your Crushing Claws Carnifex.
Carnifex w/ 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - The 'Screamer-Killer' is a basic Carnifex. It can either be taken in multiples for more Wounds to chew through, or as a single unit
Stone Crusher Carnifexes From Forge World, Stone Crusher Carnifexes are even stronger than regular Carnifexes, boasting S10 on their base statline. This becomes even better when you consider the fact they also have Living Battery Ram, as well as their own special rules, Wrecker, Sunder and Carapace Chitin-rams. This gives all Hammer of Wrath attacks Armourbane and Monster Hunter, meaning they can put wounds on MC and vehicles alike. Wrecker and Sunder is what really sets them apart from Carnifexes, they are allowed to re-roll all failed Armour Penetration rolls, as well as add one to the result if against immobile structures and fortifications (on top of the +2 granted by the Wrecker Claws AP1 value) when using their Wrecker Claws. Although the Stone Wrecker Carnifex has less attacks than the Carnifex (two compared to three) any attack that goes through is more than likely going to cause an Explodes! result. As a trade off for their close combat power, they have no access to Monstrous Biocannons.
While having an identical profile to the Carnifex (Trading an attack for Strength 10 aside), they are more durable then Carnifexes, due to their Reinforced Caraspace special rule, which makes any shooting attacks resolved against a Stone Crusher Carnifex reduce their Strength by one. Essentially, this means the Stone Crusher Carnifex is T7 against shooting attacks (note this does not apply to close combat attacks).
Stone Crusher Carnifexes upgrades Additional Stone Crusher Carnifexes - like regular Carnifexes, additional Carnifexes may be taken for Wound allocation purposes. Considering that they are Toughness 7 against shooting attacks, this will prolong the life of Stone Crusher Carnifexes considerably. As mentioned in the Tyrannocyte entry for Carnifexes, models that can do something upon Deep Strike arrival are good. Stone Crusher Carnifexes have the durability to run up the field and bear the brunt of most weapons, especially with Shrouded support. Note that broads of two or more Stone Crusher Carnifexes are vulnerable to the worst result on the Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Stone Wrecker Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
Spine Banks - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma -Generally not worth it since a Stone Wrecker Carnifex does not want to be targetting Infantry.
This is a bad option.
Thresher Scythe - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - Unlike regular Carnifexes, Stone Wrecker Carnifexes do not require help destroying vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail replaces their ability to re-roll amour penetration on their regular attacks with the ability to cause Instant Death and gain a new rule, Sweep Attack. Sweep Attack allows a model to replace all their attacks with a number of attacks equal to the number of enemy models in base contact with them. This allows a Stone Crusher Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail to generate more attacks and stops it being tarpitted as easily, while the trade off is that they may find it harder to destroy vehicles.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of two or three models, this is a good option.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of one model, this is a decent option.
Transport Much like a regular Carnifex, a single Stone Crusher Carnifex can embark on a Tyrannocyte. However, a Stone Wrecker Carnifex has more durability than a regular Carnifex and can forgo a Transport in favour of running up. Note however, that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex can not usse Adrenal Glands at all, so it is still quite slow in that regard, meaning the Tyrannocyte can provide the speed that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex needs in order to do damage.
For single Stone Wrecker Carnifexes, this is a good option.
For Stone Wrecker Carnifex broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claws - A standard Stone Wrecker Carnifex does a fine job of destroying vehicles without any upgrades.
Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail should only be taken in groups of two or more, as it prevents a heavily points invested unit being tarpitted easily.
Conclusion and Overall Rating
Carnifex Overall rating = A-
The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids. The Carnifex can be kitted out for different roles, making it a multi-purpose unit, which is useful in the case that you may not always be playing against vehicles. The Carnifex just falls short of being an all-star by a reliance on Synapse to function well, as well as requiring support from other Tyranids to provide it with a cover save, or to simply draw fire away from it as it is fragile in comparison to other TMCs.
Stone Crusher Carnifex Overall Rating = B
While the Stone Crusher Carnifex is the best answer Tyranids have to heavy vehicle duties, it's role is very linear and does not allow much adaptability. It also suffers from requiring Synapse to be effective and even with pseudo Toughness 7, is still quite vulnerable to volume of fire with only four wounds.
Nice! A few minor nit-picks.. One there are some small spelling errors, so you might want to give it a look sometime for that. Two, in my heart a Screamer-Killer is always a Vanilla Carnifex, with Bio-plasma And it is the Adrenals that are optional. I'd suggest listing the Vanilla fex as a separate entry, just so old dudes like me don't get all confused.. Lastly, while the current "meta" doesn't like Gunfexen (Heavy Cannon, TL Brain Leeches) that does not mean there are bad, so they likey deserve a mention, and I'd categorize Strangle Cannon as a "fair" to decent choice for a Carnifex/Gunfex, vs Marines it is not so good, but it eats up "horde" lists like candy! It's just that AM, and Orks are not very popular right now... I'd still consider using them if DE become a "thing" though.
Also- what about a rundown on Relics/Wargear? Maw Claws, Regeneration, and such? Perhaps include what units can make the most of a specific entry. I might can take a swing at it if anyone wants me to, and maybe a unit or two if I get home in time tonight.
rigeld2 wrote: 40 dice (if you Rage, which is unlikely).
20 hits.
10 wounds.
3 failed saves.
And then next turn it's 20 dice, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 failed save.
The Tac squad (ignoring the sarge being different) will swing 7 times, wound 4 times, and you'll fail 3-4 saves. So on the charge with Rage (best case scenario) you'll tie or lose combat.
Yeah, that's good.
To be fair, you should compare by point values, rather than numer of figs...10 Tacs will cost Way more than 50 points. So it might be better to compare 15 Hormies charging in, though you did not suptract the figs killed by overwatch...
Frozocrone wrote: I have done one for Carnifexes. I followed a Green, Amber, Red system for weapons and biomorphs to say which ones would be most viable in a competitive setting. Proof reading/critique by others would be appreciated. I am happy to edit this post if people have suggestions or builds (or to completely re-write it )
I've not included Formations with Carnifexes in, I think they could have their own section within the OP.
Spoiler:
Carnifexes Background When one thinks of a Tyranid army, one of the first models to come to mind is the Carnifex. One of the most iconic Tyranid models to be in existance, especially in 4th edition where Carnifexes could also be taken in Elites. As fifth edition came out, they became redundant with the arrival of the new Trygon and lack of option to be taken as an Elite and slowly started to gather dust. Following the arrival of 6th edition, Carnifexes were hailed as one of the shining stars of the Codex, getting a notable points decrease as well as being able to take multiples in a brood, opening up Heavy Support options. As 7th edition rolled out they came to be the only Monstrous Creature in the Tyranid Codex that wasn't nerfed by the changes to Smash, making use of it's standard base 9 Strength to deal with anything that comes across its path.
Competitive Setting A Carnifex Brood uses one of the Heavy Support slots in a Tyranid army. It follows a standard TMC statline, with WS3, BS3, T6 with a 3+ Armour Save. As it does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it will revert to Instinctive Behaviour outside of Synapse, of which the Carnifex rolls on the Feed table. Where the Carnifex starts to differ is that it only has 4 Wounds, making it not as durable as other TMC's and is Initiative 2, meaning that it strikes at the same speed as the lowly Ork and is out sped by anything that isn't a Power Fist or equivalent. However, where it lacks in speed, it makes up for in sheer brutality, sporting 3 attacks at base S9. Combined with it's Living Battering Ram special rule that grants it D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks instead of one, this makes it one of the premier options that Tyranids have for opening AV13/14.
Melee Weapons Scything Talons - Carnifexes come equipped with two pairs of Scything Talons. Although being nerfed, they do allow for customization of a Carnifex by exchanging a pair for Wargear upgrades.
For those that want to keep Carnifexes cheap, this is a good option.
Crushing Claws - Crushing Claws grants a Carnifex S10 in Close Combat (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), allowing it to Instant Kill T5 as well as giving it the Armourbane USR, making it more likely to Penetrate AV13-14.
For Carnifexes designed for vehicle hunting, this is a good option.
Monstrous Bio-Cannons Twin-Linked Deathspitter - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Deathspitter, granting it three 18" TL shots at S5 AP5. This is not very good, especially when taken in context, it is outclassed by another Monstrous Biocannon.
This is a bad option.
Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech worms - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Devourer with Brainleech Worms, granting it six 18" TL shots at S6 AP-. This allows a Carnifex to be multi-purpose, wounding Infantry through number of shots, as well as Light Armour and in emergencies, ground based AA.
This is a good option.
Stranglethorn Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Stranglethorn Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S6 AP5 Large Blast, Pinning Shot. The Stranglethorn Cannon may only be taken once per model and may not be taken with the Heavy Venom Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to act as a Infantry killer and support smaller Tyranids by potentially making it harder to shoot at them. However, with a Carnifexes bad Ballistic Skill, it might scatter off the target and is in general, outclassed by Biovores, who give three Large Blast Templates at a large ranger for the price of a standard Carnifex.
This is a bad option.
Heavy Venom Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Heavy Venom Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S9 AP4 Blast. Only one Heavy Venom Cannon may be taken per model and may not be taken with the Stranglethorn Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to fire a single S9 shot before it charges a vehicle, making it easier to wreck vehicles, as well as Instant Killing T4. For Carnifexes designed for Vehicles-hunting, this could be the last glancing hit you need to wreck that vehicle.
This is a decent option.
Biomorphs Toxin Sacs A Carnifex with Toxin Sacs has the Poisoned USR. This, combined with the natural S9 of the Carnifex, will normally allow it to re-roll failed to Wound rolls. However, the Carnifex only has 3 attacks base and WS3, meaning you might not get to make use of the re-roll to wounds.
This is a decent option.
Acid Blood A Carnifex with Acid Blood the ability to inflict a S5 AP2 hit per unsaved wound in Close Combat. This looks quite good, until you realise the Carnifex only has four Wounds, as well as the opponent having to take an Initiative before the hit can apply.
This is a bad option.
Adrenal Glands. A Carnifex with Adrenal Glands has the Fleet and Furious Charge USR. This allows a Carnifex to have S10 on the charge (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), as well as re-roll Run and Charge distances. This makes getting into combat much easier and combined with the Onslaught Psychic Power, allows Carnifexes to get into position quickly to start firing any Ranged Weapons they have.
This is a good option.
Regeneration. A Carnifex with Regeneration has the ability to regain lost wounds at the end of the game turn on a 4+. This looks promising, until one realizes it is the least durable Monstrous Creature that Tyranids have, on virtue of it having the fewest amount of Wounds (aside the Hive Tyrant, which can mitigate this with the Catalyst Psychic Power and Wings for a FMC profile) and only has a 3+ armour save coupled with it's Toughness characteristic of 6, meaning it can be focused fired down before it can make use of Regeneration.
This is a bad option.
Tail Biomorphs Thresher Scythe - A Carnifex with a Thresher Scythe may make an additional S4 AP4 attack with the Rending special rule in close combat. Considering that the Carnifex that is in combat is usually geared for vehicle killing, this is not likely to help.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - A Carnifex with a Bone Mace may make an additional S8 AP - attack in close combat. They cost the same as Crushing Claws which will more reliably open vehicles, but if you feel that you are not destroying vehicles enough, it grants additional attack that may cause that final glancing hit.
This is a decent option.
Options Additional Carnifexes - a Carnifex Brood may take up to two more Carnifexes. This allows a Tyranid player to shift Carnifexes around for Wound allocation purposes making the brood more durable, as well as have more Carnifexes without using up the Heavy Support slots. Any Carnifex brood consisting of two or three Carnifexes can not make use of the Tyrannocyte, making this option a speed vs durability argument.It is important to note however, that any Carnifex Brood with two or three models, are vulnerable to the harshest Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
Spine Banks - A Carnifex with Spine Banks may fire one 8" shot at S3 AP- Blast and is treated as having Assault Grenades. This is generally not worth it as the damage output is so low and Carnifexes have a low Initiative to begin with.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma - A Carnifex with Bio=Plasma may fire one 12" shot at S7 AP2 Blast. This is better than Spine Banks as you can wound a lot more stuff. It is still a bit pricey however and for thirty points more, one can purchase an Exocrine, which has a larger blast or six shots at double the range and when stationary, a better BS.
This is a decent option.
Transport Tyrannocyte As soon as the Tyrannocyte was announced, there was much rejoicing amongst Tyranid players. Tyrannocytes give much needed speed to Tyranids, which allows Carnifexes to move up even faster than before. Note that only one MC model can embark the Tyrannocyte upon deployment. Tyrannocytes work best when a model can immedietly do something upon deployment, such as shoot or provide Synapse so is not the best option for all Carnifexes.
For single Carnifexes with Ranged Weapons, this is a good option.
For single Carnifexes with Melee only weapons, this is a decent option.
For Carnifexes with long range weapons (HVC or SC) or broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms - can be taken alone to fit in a Tyrannocyte or in multiples for more firepower, this type of Carnifex, known as the 'Dakkafex' spits out a large number of shots which shave wounds off units. Adrenal Glands are an optional extra to allow it to more reliable deal with vehicles or move into position.
Carnifex w/ Scything Talons, Crushing Claws - This type of Carnifex commonly has two more standard Carnifexes for ablative wounds, as they move up the battlefield looking for the highest AV vehicles and destroying them with ease. Adrenal Glands are not a necessity as the Crushing Claws variant can reliably deal with high AV vehicles and you normally have ablative wounds for your Crushing Claws Carnifex.
Carnifex w/ 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - The 'Screamer-Killer' is a basic Carnifex. It can either be taken in multiples for more Wounds to chew through, or as a single unit
Stone Crusher Carnifexes From Forge World, Stone Crusher Carnifexes are even stronger than regular Carnifexes, boasting S10 on their base statline. This becomes even better when you consider the fact they also have Living Battery Ram, as well as their own special rules, Wrecker, Sunder and Carapace Chitin-rams. This gives all Hammer of Wrath attacks Armourbane and Monster Hunter, meaning they can put wounds on MC and vehicles alike. Wrecker and Sunder is what really sets them apart from Carnifexes, they are allowed to re-roll all failed Armour Penetration rolls, as well as add one to the result if against immobile structures and fortifications (on top of the +2 granted by the Wrecker Claws AP1 value) when using their Wrecker Claws. Although the Stone Wrecker Carnifex has less attacks than the Carnifex (two compared to three) any attack that goes through is more than likely going to cause an Explodes! result. As a trade off for their close combat power, they have no access to Monstrous Biocannons.
While having an identical profile to the Carnifex (Trading an attack for Strength 10 aside), they are more durable then Carnifexes, due to their Reinforced Caraspace special rule, which makes any shooting attacks resolved against a Stone Crusher Carnifex reduce their Strength by one. Essentially, this means the Stone Crusher Carnifex is T7 against shooting attacks (note this does not apply to close combat attacks).
Stone Crusher Carnifexes upgrades Additional Stone Crusher Carnifexes - like regular Carnifexes, additional Carnifexes may be taken for Wound allocation purposes. Considering that they are Toughness 7 against shooting attacks, this will prolong the life of Stone Crusher Carnifexes considerably. As mentioned in the Tyrannocyte entry for Carnifexes, models that can do something upon Deep Strike arrival are good. Stone Crusher Carnifexes have the durability to run up the field and bear the brunt of most weapons, especially with Shrouded support. Note that broads of two or more Stone Crusher Carnifexes are vulnerable to the worst result on the Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Stone Wrecker Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
Spine Banks - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma -Generally not worth it since a Stone Wrecker Carnifex does not want to be targetting Infantry.
This is a bad option.
Thresher Scythe - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - Unlike regular Carnifexes, Stone Wrecker Carnifexes do not require help destroying vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail replaces their ability to re-roll amour penetration on their regular attacks with the ability to cause Instant Death and gain a new rule, Sweep Attack. Sweep Attack allows a model to replace all their attacks with a number of attacks equal to the number of enemy models in base contact with them. This allows a Stone Crusher Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail to generate more attacks and stops it being tarpitted as easily, while the trade off is that they may find it harder to destroy vehicles.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of two or three models, this is a good option.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of one model, this is a decent option.
Transport Much like a regular Carnifex, a single Stone Crusher Carnifex can embark on a Tyrannocyte. However, a Stone Wrecker Carnifex has more durability than a regular Carnifex and can forgo a Transport in favour of running up. Note however, that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex can not usse Adrenal Glands at all, so it is still quite slow in that regard, meaning the Tyrannocyte can provide the speed that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex needs in order to do damage.
For single Stone Wrecker Carnifexes, this is a good option.
For Stone Wrecker Carnifex broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claws - A standard Stone Wrecker Carnifex does a fine job of destroying vehicles without any upgrades.
Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail should only be taken in groups of two or more, as it prevents a heavily points invested unit being tarpitted easily.
Conclusion and Overall Rating
Carnifex Overall rating = A-
The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids. The Carnifex can be kitted out for different roles, making it a multi-purpose unit, which is useful in the case that you may not always be playing against vehicles. The Carnifex just falls short of being an all-star by a reliance on Synapse to function well, as well as requiring support from other Tyranids to provide it with a cover save, or to simply draw fire away from it as it is fragile in comparison to other TMCs.
Stone Crusher Carnifex Overall Rating = B
While the Stone Crusher Carnifex is the best answer Tyranids have to heavy vehicle duties, it's role is very linear and does not allow much adaptability. It also suffers from requiring Synapse to be effective and even with pseudo Toughness 7, is still quite vulnerable to volume of fire with only four wounds.
Nice! A few minor nit-picks.. One there are some small spelling errors, so you might want to give it a look sometime for that. Two, in my heart a Screamer-Killer is always a Vanilla Carnifex, with Bio-plasma And it is the Adrenals that are optional. I'd suggest listing the Vanilla fex as a separate entry, just so old dudes like me don't get all confused.. Lastly, while the current "meta" doesn't like Gunfexen (Heavy Cannon, TL Brain Leeches) that does not mean there are bad, so they likey deserve a mention, and I'd categorize Strangle Cannon as a "fair" to decent choice for a Carnifex/Gunfex, vs Marines it is not so good, but it eats up "horde" lists like candy! It's just that AM, and Orks are not very popular right now... I'd still consider using them if DE become a "thing" though.
About the Stranglethorn's I initially felt the same, but Frozocone makes a point about Biovores being much better equipped to deal with horde units- although a Stanglethorn/Devourer combo might be an alternative to consider. It can start shooting earlier, albeit it trades the reliability of hurting transports(the !2nd Devourers) for a large Pinning Blast and AP4.
Frozocrone wrote: I have done one for Carnifexes. I followed a Green, Amber, Red system for weapons and biomorphs to say which ones would be most viable in a competitive setting. Proof reading/critique by others would be appreciated. I am happy to edit this post if people have suggestions or builds (or to completely re-write it )
I've not included Formations with Carnifexes in, I think they could have their own section within the OP.
Spoiler:
Carnifexes Background When one thinks of a Tyranid army, one of the first models to come to mind is the Carnifex. One of the most iconic Tyranid models to be in existance, especially in 4th edition where Carnifexes could also be taken in Elites. As fifth edition came out, they became redundant with the arrival of the new Trygon and lack of option to be taken as an Elite and slowly started to gather dust. Following the arrival of 6th edition, Carnifexes were hailed as one of the shining stars of the Codex, getting a notable points decrease as well as being able to take multiples in a brood, opening up Heavy Support options. As 7th edition rolled out they came to be the only Monstrous Creature in the Tyranid Codex that wasn't nerfed by the changes to Smash, making use of it's standard base 9 Strength to deal with anything that comes across its path.
Competitive Setting A Carnifex Brood uses one of the Heavy Support slots in a Tyranid army. It follows a standard TMC statline, with WS3, BS3, T6 with a 3+ Armour Save. As it does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it will revert to Instinctive Behaviour outside of Synapse, of which the Carnifex rolls on the Feed table. Where the Carnifex starts to differ is that it only has 4 Wounds, making it not as durable as other TMC's and is Initiative 2, meaning that it strikes at the same speed as the lowly Ork and is out sped by anything that isn't a Power Fist or equivalent. However, where it lacks in speed, it makes up for in sheer brutality, sporting 3 attacks at base S9. Combined with it's Living Battering Ram special rule that grants it D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks instead of one, this makes it one of the premier options that Tyranids have for opening AV13/14.
Melee Weapons Scything Talons - Carnifexes come equipped with two pairs of Scything Talons. Although being nerfed, they do allow for customization of a Carnifex by exchanging a pair for Wargear upgrades.
For those that want to keep Carnifexes cheap, this is a good option.
Crushing Claws - Crushing Claws grants a Carnifex S10 in Close Combat (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), allowing it to Instant Kill T5 as well as giving it the Armourbane USR, making it more likely to Penetrate AV13-14.
For Carnifexes designed for vehicle hunting, this is a good option.
Monstrous Bio-Cannons Twin-Linked Deathspitter - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Deathspitter, granting it three 18" TL shots at S5 AP5. This is not very good, especially when taken in context, it is outclassed by another Monstrous Biocannon.
This is a bad option.
Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech worms - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Devourer with Brainleech Worms, granting it six 18" TL shots at S6 AP-. This allows a Carnifex to be multi-purpose, wounding Infantry through number of shots, as well as Light Armour and in emergencies, ground based AA.
This is a good option.
Stranglethorn Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Stranglethorn Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S6 AP5 Large Blast, Pinning Shot. The Stranglethorn Cannon may only be taken once per model and may not be taken with the Heavy Venom Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to act as a Infantry killer and support smaller Tyranids by potentially making it harder to shoot at them. However, with a Carnifexes bad Ballistic Skill, it might scatter off the target and is in general, outclassed by Biovores, who give three Large Blast Templates at a large ranger for the price of a standard Carnifex.
This is a bad option.
Heavy Venom Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Heavy Venom Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S9 AP4 Blast. Only one Heavy Venom Cannon may be taken per model and may not be taken with the Stranglethorn Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to fire a single S9 shot before it charges a vehicle, making it easier to wreck vehicles, as well as Instant Killing T4. For Carnifexes designed for Vehicles-hunting, this could be the last glancing hit you need to wreck that vehicle.
This is a decent option.
Biomorphs Toxin Sacs A Carnifex with Toxin Sacs has the Poisoned USR. This, combined with the natural S9 of the Carnifex, will normally allow it to re-roll failed to Wound rolls. However, the Carnifex only has 3 attacks base and WS3, meaning you might not get to make use of the re-roll to wounds.
This is a decent option.
Acid Blood A Carnifex with Acid Blood the ability to inflict a S5 AP2 hit per unsaved wound in Close Combat. This looks quite good, until you realise the Carnifex only has four Wounds, as well as the opponent having to take an Initiative before the hit can apply.
This is a bad option.
Adrenal Glands. A Carnifex with Adrenal Glands has the Fleet and Furious Charge USR. This allows a Carnifex to have S10 on the charge (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), as well as re-roll Run and Charge distances. This makes getting into combat much easier and combined with the Onslaught Psychic Power, allows Carnifexes to get into position quickly to start firing any Ranged Weapons they have.
This is a good option.
Regeneration. A Carnifex with Regeneration has the ability to regain lost wounds at the end of the game turn on a 4+. This looks promising, until one realizes it is the least durable Monstrous Creature that Tyranids have, on virtue of it having the fewest amount of Wounds (aside the Hive Tyrant, which can mitigate this with the Catalyst Psychic Power and Wings for a FMC profile) and only has a 3+ armour save coupled with it's Toughness characteristic of 6, meaning it can be focused fired down before it can make use of Regeneration.
This is a bad option.
Tail Biomorphs Thresher Scythe - A Carnifex with a Thresher Scythe may make an additional S4 AP4 attack with the Rending special rule in close combat. Considering that the Carnifex that is in combat is usually geared for vehicle killing, this is not likely to help.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - A Carnifex with a Bone Mace may make an additional S8 AP - attack in close combat. They cost the same as Crushing Claws which will more reliably open vehicles, but if you feel that you are not destroying vehicles enough, it grants additional attack that may cause that final glancing hit.
This is a decent option.
Options Additional Carnifexes - a Carnifex Brood may take up to two more Carnifexes. This allows a Tyranid player to shift Carnifexes around for Wound allocation purposes making the brood more durable, as well as have more Carnifexes without using up the Heavy Support slots. Any Carnifex brood consisting of two or three Carnifexes can not make use of the Tyrannocyte, making this option a speed vs durability argument.It is important to note however, that any Carnifex Brood with two or three models, are vulnerable to the harshest Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
Spine Banks - A Carnifex with Spine Banks may fire one 8" shot at S3 AP- Blast and is treated as having Assault Grenades. This is generally not worth it as the damage output is so low and Carnifexes have a low Initiative to begin with.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma - A Carnifex with Bio=Plasma may fire one 12" shot at S7 AP2 Blast. This is better than Spine Banks as you can wound a lot more stuff. It is still a bit pricey however and for thirty points more, one can purchase an Exocrine, which has a larger blast or six shots at double the range and when stationary, a better BS.
This is a decent option.
Transport Tyrannocyte As soon as the Tyrannocyte was announced, there was much rejoicing amongst Tyranid players. Tyrannocytes give much needed speed to Tyranids, which allows Carnifexes to move up even faster than before. Note that only one MC model can embark the Tyrannocyte upon deployment. Tyrannocytes work best when a model can immedietly do something upon deployment, such as shoot or provide Synapse so is not the best option for all Carnifexes.
For single Carnifexes with Ranged Weapons, this is a good option.
For single Carnifexes with Melee only weapons, this is a decent option.
For Carnifexes with long range weapons (HVC or SC) or broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms - can be taken alone to fit in a Tyrannocyte or in multiples for more firepower, this type of Carnifex, known as the 'Dakkafex' spits out a large number of shots which shave wounds off units. Adrenal Glands are an optional extra to allow it to more reliable deal with vehicles or move into position.
Carnifex w/ Scything Talons, Crushing Claws - This type of Carnifex commonly has two more standard Carnifexes for ablative wounds, as they move up the battlefield looking for the highest AV vehicles and destroying them with ease. Adrenal Glands are not a necessity as the Crushing Claws variant can reliably deal with high AV vehicles and you normally have ablative wounds for your Crushing Claws Carnifex.
Carnifex w/ 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - The 'Screamer-Killer' is a basic Carnifex. It can either be taken in multiples for more Wounds to chew through, or as a single unit
Stone Crusher Carnifexes From Forge World, Stone Crusher Carnifexes are even stronger than regular Carnifexes, boasting S10 on their base statline. This becomes even better when you consider the fact they also have Living Battery Ram, as well as their own special rules, Wrecker, Sunder and Carapace Chitin-rams. This gives all Hammer of Wrath attacks Armourbane and Monster Hunter, meaning they can put wounds on MC and vehicles alike. Wrecker and Sunder is what really sets them apart from Carnifexes, they are allowed to re-roll all failed Armour Penetration rolls, as well as add one to the result if against immobile structures and fortifications (on top of the +2 granted by the Wrecker Claws AP1 value) when using their Wrecker Claws. Although the Stone Wrecker Carnifex has less attacks than the Carnifex (two compared to three) any attack that goes through is more than likely going to cause an Explodes! result. As a trade off for their close combat power, they have no access to Monstrous Biocannons.
While having an identical profile to the Carnifex (Trading an attack for Strength 10 aside), they are more durable then Carnifexes, due to their Reinforced Caraspace special rule, which makes any shooting attacks resolved against a Stone Crusher Carnifex reduce their Strength by one. Essentially, this means the Stone Crusher Carnifex is T7 against shooting attacks (note this does not apply to close combat attacks).
Stone Crusher Carnifexes upgrades Additional Stone Crusher Carnifexes - like regular Carnifexes, additional Carnifexes may be taken for Wound allocation purposes. Considering that they are Toughness 7 against shooting attacks, this will prolong the life of Stone Crusher Carnifexes considerably. As mentioned in the Tyrannocyte entry for Carnifexes, models that can do something upon Deep Strike arrival are good. Stone Crusher Carnifexes have the durability to run up the field and bear the brunt of most weapons, especially with Shrouded support. Note that broads of two or more Stone Crusher Carnifexes are vulnerable to the worst result on the Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Stone Wrecker Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
Spine Banks - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma -Generally not worth it since a Stone Wrecker Carnifex does not want to be targetting Infantry.
This is a bad option.
Thresher Scythe - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - Unlike regular Carnifexes, Stone Wrecker Carnifexes do not require help destroying vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail replaces their ability to re-roll amour penetration on their regular attacks with the ability to cause Instant Death and gain a new rule, Sweep Attack. Sweep Attack allows a model to replace all their attacks with a number of attacks equal to the number of enemy models in base contact with them. This allows a Stone Crusher Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail to generate more attacks and stops it being tarpitted as easily, while the trade off is that they may find it harder to destroy vehicles.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of two or three models, this is a good option.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of one model, this is a decent option.
Transport Much like a regular Carnifex, a single Stone Crusher Carnifex can embark on a Tyrannocyte. However, a Stone Wrecker Carnifex has more durability than a regular Carnifex and can forgo a Transport in favour of running up. Note however, that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex can not usse Adrenal Glands at all, so it is still quite slow in that regard, meaning the Tyrannocyte can provide the speed that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex needs in order to do damage.
For single Stone Wrecker Carnifexes, this is a good option.
For Stone Wrecker Carnifex broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claws - A standard Stone Wrecker Carnifex does a fine job of destroying vehicles without any upgrades.
Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail should only be taken in groups of two or more, as it prevents a heavily points invested unit being tarpitted easily.
Conclusion and Overall Rating
Carnifex Overall rating = A-
The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids. The Carnifex can be kitted out for different roles, making it a multi-purpose unit, which is useful in the case that you may not always be playing against vehicles. The Carnifex just falls short of being an all-star by a reliance on Synapse to function well, as well as requiring support from other Tyranids to provide it with a cover save, or to simply draw fire away from it as it is fragile in comparison to other TMCs.
Stone Crusher Carnifex Overall Rating = B
While the Stone Crusher Carnifex is the best answer Tyranids have to heavy vehicle duties, it's role is very linear and does not allow much adaptability. It also suffers from requiring Synapse to be effective and even with pseudo Toughness 7, is still quite vulnerable to volume of fire with only four wounds.
Awesome review- my only gripe is to change "broods of two or more cannot take a Tyrannocyte". Just nip that in the bud now.
Thanks! Yeah, I probably made a few errors while writing it, it is an essay of a review
Got formation pictures for everyone
Spoiler:
The Skytyrant one was a bit of a letdown, but, considering how good Flyrants are, makes a lot more sense. We might see a few more Melee Tyrants with this formation.
Anyway, enjoy! I'm off to write my essay on development across the lifespan
Let me know which you want to volunteer for and I will update this list. Or you could just post the review of the unit directly onto this thread and I will update the list and also the main tactica on p.1.
I'd be happy to do a write up for the Haruspex and Harpy. I use both fairly frequently so I think I could do a fair assessment of their capabilities and uses.
But Podding them in might help with that. 
