Hornagant proved me a victory many time and outrun my genestealer against space marine. My vanilla gant is 10 point more than termagant yeah.. But that mean hornagant gain +1 attack dice. Don't forgot charge bonus and with a Dice God are on your side - Rage!
That mean for 10 hornagant- 50 pts.
At least 30 dice per assult. If hornagant charge first then at least 40 dice! Against ten men in power armour.. Good bye marine!
Compare that to termagant- range weapon with ten dice for assult ( don't want to charge with this minion!). That all!
Automatically Appended Next Post: At least no no no... Up to! Oops.
I'm assembling and painting 80 Hgaunts, that's how much i like that model, you don't have to convince me of how great they are. That is also why i volunteered for that review.
That said, i know that my considerations about Hgaunts are in the minority, so i wrote that guide by mixing what i like of them and what is the common consensus.
That said, i think i'm in love with the spores formation.
Frozocrone wrote: I have done one for Carnifexes. I followed a Green, Amber, Red system for weapons and biomorphs to say which ones would be most viable in a competitive setting. Proof reading/critique by others would be appreciated. I am happy to edit this post if people have suggestions or builds (or to completely re-write it )
I've not included Formations with Carnifexes in, I think they could have their own section within the OP.
Spoiler:
Carnifexes Background When one thinks of a Tyranid army, one of the first models to come to mind is the Carnifex. One of the most iconic Tyranid models to be in existance, especially in 4th edition where Carnifexes could also be taken in Elites. As fifth edition came out, they became redundant with the arrival of the new Trygon and lack of option to be taken as an Elite and slowly started to gather dust. Following the arrival of 6th edition, Carnifexes were hailed as one of the shining stars of the Codex, getting a notable points decrease as well as being able to take multiples in a brood, opening up Heavy Support options. As 7th edition rolled out they came to be the only Monstrous Creature in the Tyranid Codex that wasn't nerfed by the changes to Smash, making use of it's standard base 9 Strength to deal with anything that comes across its path.
Competitive Setting A Carnifex Brood uses one of the Heavy Support slots in a Tyranid army. It follows a standard TMC statline, with WS3, BS3, T6 with a 3+ Armour Save. As it does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it will revert to Instinctive Behaviour outside of Synapse, of which the Carnifex rolls on the Feed table. Where the Carnifex starts to differ is that it only has 4 Wounds, making it not as durable as other TMC's and is Initiative 2, meaning that it strikes at the same speed as the lowly Ork and is out sped by anything that isn't a Power Fist or equivalent. However, where it lacks in speed, it makes up for in sheer brutality, sporting 3 attacks at base S9. Combined with it's Living Battering Ram special rule that grants it D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks instead of one, this makes it one of the premier options that Tyranids have for opening AV13/14.
Melee Weapons Scything Talons - Carnifexes come equipped with two pairs of Scything Talons. Although being nerfed, they do allow for customization of a Carnifex by exchanging a pair for Wargear upgrades.
For those that want to keep Carnifexes cheap, this is a good option.
Crushing Claws - Crushing Claws grants a Carnifex S10 in Close Combat (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), allowing it to Instant Kill T5 as well as giving it the Armourbane USR, making it more likely to Penetrate AV13-14.
For Carnifexes designed for vehicle hunting, this is a good option.
Monstrous Bio-Cannons Twin-Linked Deathspitter - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Deathspitter, granting it three 18" TL shots at S5 AP5. This is not very good, especially when taken in context, it is outclassed by another Monstrous Biocannon.
This is a bad option.
Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech worms - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Devourer with Brainleech Worms, granting it six 18" TL shots at S6 AP-. This allows a Carnifex to be multi-purpose, wounding Infantry through number of shots, as well as Light Armour and in emergencies, ground based AA.
This is a good option.
Stranglethorn Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Stranglethorn Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S6 AP5 Large Blast, Pinning Shot. The Stranglethorn Cannon may only be taken once per model and may not be taken with the Heavy Venom Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to act as a Infantry killer and support smaller Tyranids by potentially making it harder to shoot at them. However, with a Carnifexes bad Ballistic Skill, it might scatter off the target and is in general, outclassed by Biovores, who give three Large Blast Templates at a large ranger for the price of a standard Carnifex.
This is a bad option.
Heavy Venom Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Heavy Venom Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S9 AP4 Blast. Only one Heavy Venom Cannon may be taken per model and may not be taken with the Stranglethorn Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to fire a single S9 shot before it charges a vehicle, making it easier to wreck vehicles, as well as Instant Killing T4. For Carnifexes designed for Vehicles-hunting, this could be the last glancing hit you need to wreck that vehicle.
This is a decent option.
Biomorphs Toxin Sacs A Carnifex with Toxin Sacs has the Poisoned USR. This, combined with the natural S9 of the Carnifex, will normally allow it to re-roll failed to Wound rolls. However, the Carnifex only has 3 attacks base and WS3, meaning you might not get to make use of the re-roll to wounds.
This is a decent option.
Acid Blood A Carnifex with Acid Blood the ability to inflict a S5 AP2 hit per unsaved wound in Close Combat. This looks quite good, until you realise the Carnifex only has four Wounds, as well as the opponent having to take an Initiative before the hit can apply.
This is a bad option.
Adrenal Glands. A Carnifex with Adrenal Glands has the Fleet and Furious Charge USR. This allows a Carnifex to have S10 on the charge (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), as well as re-roll Run and Charge distances. This makes getting into combat much easier and combined with the Onslaught Psychic Power, allows Carnifexes to get into position quickly to start firing any Ranged Weapons they have.
This is a good option.
Regeneration. A Carnifex with Regeneration has the ability to regain lost wounds at the end of the game turn on a 4+. This looks promising, until one realizes it is the least durable Monstrous Creature that Tyranids have, on virtue of it having the fewest amount of Wounds (aside the Hive Tyrant, which can mitigate this with the Catalyst Psychic Power and Wings for a FMC profile) and only has a 3+ armour save coupled with it's Toughness characteristic of 6, meaning it can be focused fired down before it can make use of Regeneration.
This is a bad option.
Tail Biomorphs Thresher Scythe - A Carnifex with a Thresher Scythe may make an additional S4 AP4 attack with the Rending special rule in close combat. Considering that the Carnifex that is in combat is usually geared for vehicle killing, this is not likely to help.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - A Carnifex with a Bone Mace may make an additional S8 AP - attack in close combat. They cost the same as Crushing Claws which will more reliably open vehicles, but if you feel that you are not destroying vehicles enough, it grants additional attack that may cause that final glancing hit.
This is a decent option.
Options Additional Carnifexes - a Carnifex Brood may take up to two more Carnifexes. This allows a Tyranid player to shift Carnifexes around for Wound allocation purposes making the brood more durable, as well as have more Carnifexes without using up the Heavy Support slots. Any Carnifex brood consisting of two or three Carnifexes can not make use of the Tyrannocyte, making this option a speed vs durability argument.It is important to note however, that any Carnifex Brood with two or three models, are vulnerable to the harshest Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
Spine Banks - A Carnifex with Spine Banks may fire one 8" shot at S3 AP- Blast and is treated as having Assault Grenades. This is generally not worth it as the damage output is so low and Carnifexes have a low Initiative to begin with.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma - A Carnifex with Bio=Plasma may fire one 12" shot at S7 AP2 Blast. This is better than Spine Banks as you can wound a lot more stuff. It is still a bit pricey however and for thirty points more, one can purchase an Exocrine, which has a larger blast or six shots at double the range and when stationary, a better BS.
This is a decent option.
Transport Tyrannocyte As soon as the Tyrannocyte was announced, there was much rejoicing amongst Tyranid players. Tyrannocytes give much needed speed to Tyranids, which allows Carnifexes to move up even faster than before. Note that only one MC model can embark the Tyrannocyte upon deployment. Tyrannocytes work best when a model can immedietly do something upon deployment, such as shoot or provide Synapse so is not the best option for all Carnifexes.
For single Carnifexes with Ranged Weapons, this is a good option.
For single Carnifexes with Melee only weapons, this is a decent option.
For Carnifexes with long range weapons (HVC or SC) or broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms - can be taken alone to fit in a Tyrannocyte or in multiples for more firepower, this type of Carnifex, known as the 'Dakkafex' spits out a large number of shots which shave wounds off units. Adrenal Glands are an optional extra to allow it to more reliable deal with vehicles or move into position.
Carnifex w/ Scything Talons, Crushing Claws - This type of Carnifex commonly has two more standard Carnifexes for ablative wounds, as they move up the battlefield looking for the highest AV vehicles and destroying them with ease. Adrenal Glands are not a necessity as the Crushing Claws variant can reliably deal with high AV vehicles and you normally have ablative wounds for your Crushing Claws Carnifex.
Carnifex w/ 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - The 'Screamer-Killer' is a basic Carnifex. It can either be taken in multiples for more Wounds to chew through, or as a single unit
Stone Crusher Carnifexes From Forge World, Stone Crusher Carnifexes are even stronger than regular Carnifexes, boasting S10 on their base statline. This becomes even better when you consider the fact they also have Living Battery Ram, as well as their own special rules, Wrecker, Sunder and Carapace Chitin-rams. This gives all Hammer of Wrath attacks Armourbane and Monster Hunter, meaning they can put wounds on MC and vehicles alike. Wrecker and Sunder is what really sets them apart from Carnifexes, they are allowed to re-roll all failed Armour Penetration rolls, as well as add one to the result if against immobile structures and fortifications (on top of the +2 granted by the Wrecker Claws AP1 value) when using their Wrecker Claws. Although the Stone Wrecker Carnifex has less attacks than the Carnifex (two compared to three) any attack that goes through is more than likely going to cause an Explodes! result. As a trade off for their close combat power, they have no access to Monstrous Biocannons.
While having an identical profile to the Carnifex (Trading an attack for Strength 10 aside), they are more durable then Carnifexes, due to their Reinforced Caraspace special rule, which makes any shooting attacks resolved against a Stone Crusher Carnifex reduce their Strength by one. Essentially, this means the Stone Crusher Carnifex is T7 against shooting attacks (note this does not apply to close combat attacks).
Stone Crusher Carnifexes upgrades Additional Stone Crusher Carnifexes - like regular Carnifexes, additional Carnifexes may be taken for Wound allocation purposes. Considering that they are Toughness 7 against shooting attacks, this will prolong the life of Stone Crusher Carnifexes considerably. As mentioned in the Tyrannocyte entry for Carnifexes, models that can do something upon Deep Strike arrival are good. Stone Crusher Carnifexes have the durability to run up the field and bear the brunt of most weapons, especially with Shrouded support. Note that broads of two or more Stone Crusher Carnifexes are vulnerable to the worst result on the Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Stone Wrecker Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
Spine Banks - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma -Generally not worth it since a Stone Wrecker Carnifex does not want to be targetting Infantry.
This is a bad option.
Thresher Scythe - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - Unlike regular Carnifexes, Stone Wrecker Carnifexes do not require help destroying vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail replaces their ability to re-roll amour penetration on their regular attacks with the ability to cause Instant Death and gain a new rule, Sweep Attack. Sweep Attack allows a model to replace all their attacks with a number of attacks equal to the number of enemy models in base contact with them. This allows a Stone Crusher Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail to generate more attacks and stops it being tarpitted as easily, while the trade off is that they may find it harder to destroy vehicles.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of two or three models, this is a good option.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of one model, this is a decent option.
Transport Much like a regular Carnifex, a single Stone Crusher Carnifex can embark on a Tyrannocyte. However, a Stone Wrecker Carnifex has more durability than a regular Carnifex and can forgo a Transport in favour of running up. Note however, that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex can not usse Adrenal Glands at all, so it is still quite slow in that regard, meaning the Tyrannocyte can provide the speed that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex needs in order to do damage.
For single Stone Wrecker Carnifexes, this is a good option.
For Stone Wrecker Carnifex broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claws - A standard Stone Wrecker Carnifex does a fine job of destroying vehicles without any upgrades.
Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail should only be taken in groups of two or more, as it prevents a heavily points invested unit being tarpitted easily.
Conclusion and Overall Rating
Carnifex Overall rating = A-
The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids. The Carnifex can be kitted out for different roles, making it a multi-purpose unit, which is useful in the case that you may not always be playing against vehicles. The Carnifex just falls short of being an all-star by a reliance on Synapse to function well, as well as requiring support from other Tyranids to provide it with a cover save, or to simply draw fire away from it as it is fragile in comparison to other TMCs.
Stone Crusher Carnifex Overall Rating = B
While the Stone Crusher Carnifex is the best answer Tyranids have to heavy vehicle duties, it's role is very linear and does not allow much adaptability. It also suffers from requiring Synapse to be effective and even with pseudo Toughness 7, is still quite vulnerable to volume of fire with only four wounds.
Awesome review- my only gripe is to change "broods of two or more cannot take a Tyrannocyte". Just nip that in the bud now.
Thanks! Yeah, I probably made a few errors while writing it, it is an essay of a review
Got formation pictures for everyone
Spoiler:
The Skytyrant one was a bit of a letdown, but, considering how good Flyrants are, makes a lot more sense. We might see a few more Melee Tyrants with this formation.
Anyway, enjoy! I'm off to write my essay on development across the lifespan
Thanx! Some of these look very interesting. Heck I might get to use my Winged Assassin again! Especially because I might get stuck with Mind Eater. Thogh I might use Winged Assassin in a Toxic node...
Thanks for the write-up. I've already added it to p. 1.
jifel wrote: Sign me up! I'll tackle Venomthropes and Malanthropes.
Most excellent!
Frozocrone wrote: I have done one for Carnifexes. I followed a Green, Amber, Red system for weapons and biomorphs to say which ones would be most viable in a competitive setting. Proof reading/critique by others would be appreciated. I am happy to edit this post if people have suggestions or builds (or to completely re-write it )
Wow, what a write-up! Posted on p. 1. Thanks!
Unyielding Hunger wrote: One thing you may want to mention in that Carnifex review is the fact that spine banks are the only way to get assault grenades on them. Also, when run in groups of 3, you fire them on a per model basis rather than per unit, so it can do some decent damage. Also, you forgot Old One Eye.
I think I will handle...Pyrovores, Tyranid Warriors, Shrikes, and Tyranid Primes.
You're on!
Sinful Hero wrote: Also- what about a rundown on Relics/Wargear? Maw Claws, Regeneration, and such? Perhaps include what units can make the most of a specific entry. I might can take a swing at it if anyone wants me to, and maybe a unit or two if I get home in time tonight.
Ok, I will add those on as well when I get the chance.
I'd be happy to do a write up for the Haruspex and Harpy. I use both fairly frequently so I think I could do a fair assessment of their capabilities and uses.
Spoletta wrote: If no one is going to get them then i guess i could give a shot at Raveners too.
Since you are going to write-up the Raveners, do you mind doing the Red Terror as well? You can either combine them into just 1 entry (like what Frozocone did with the carnifex and stonecrusher carnifex) or write them up separately.
Ha! Called it for the most part. Anyhow, here is the Tyranid Prime review.
Tyranid Prime:
The Tyranid Prime is the cheap mans HQ. It is not a Tyrant. It will not wade into a horde of soldiers and kill anything with impunity. It will not easily kill any major special characters and most generics that have been kitted out. The Tyranid Prime is not there to lead the horde from the front, but to support it.
1. It is the only Independent Character left in the codex.
2. It is one of the few to have the option to buy assault grenades.
3. It is moderately versatile.
4. Its cheap.
Lets be frank.You took this because its cheap. You didn't take it for durability because it has very little in that regard. A single lucky S10 hit is going to take him out. So, keep that in mind as you kit it because your looking at the only Tyranid HQ with a permanent kick me sign on it's much-more-expensive-this-edition back. If you are taking this, you had better be going for overkill in your other slots because you will need to pick up the slack.
To go into the basic options, you are looking at a Tyranid Warrior with boosted stat line but with some catches. The Tyranid Prime can only bring its stat line to real benefit inside a unit of Warriors who also benefit from several boosted stats. So, to put it bluntly, your paying the price of a Flyrant and then some for 12 wounds at majority toughness 4 with Look out Sir to keep your HQ alive. This will only make it a much larger target and fair easier to kill. So, why bother? Simple, Bio-artefacts. The Tyranid Prime can pick up the Miasma Cannon which with its stateline, is a fairly good option to get some shots in, and it can function in tandem with a small unit of warriors armed with a barbed strangler to ensure some good output. Beyond that, if you are feeling bold, the Norn Crown is an expensive but useful option to put on this thing. Just make sure to not go overboard on options, because this thing will have quite a bit gunning for it. For close combat, a light approach of Maw Claws of Thyrax, Flesh Hooks, and a Lashwhip and Bonesword will carry it through most conflicts fairly comfortably at 160 points with some good benefits if it goes hunting characters.
For transportation purposes, it can use a Trygon tunnel or a pod at a cost. The best option is to take a pod with a small retinue of 3-4 warriors and use them like a tactical squad of terminators. Upon landing, use the boosted ballistic skill to fire into whatever your target it, and prepare for assault in the next turn. The pod can also make up for the lack of bodies because it also has multiple devourers to help weaken the enemy unit. If you upgraded your retinue's melee weapons to rending claws, you can get a bit more mileage out of them and hopefully wipe out a unit in the following turn.
Grades: B (Miasma Prime), C(Pod Prime), D (Vanilla)
Spoletta wrote: If no one is going to get them then i guess i could give a shot at Raveners too.
Since you are going to write-up the Raveners, do you mind doing the Red Terror as well? You can either combine them into just 1 entry (like what Frozocone did with the carnifex and stonecrusher carnifex) or write them up separately.
The Skytyrant one was a bit of a letdown, but, considering how good Flyrants are, makes a lot more sense. We might see a few more Melee Tyrants with this formation.
Anyway, enjoy! I'm off to write my essay on development across the lifespan
That is a letdown. Skytryrant Looks interesting. Hypertoxic node is bad, Neural Node is trash, Sporefield is wierd, Skytide looks ho-hum.
I was hoping for 2-3 good formations. Unfortunately there appears to be only one that is worthwhile.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Ha! Called it for the most part. Anyhow, here is the Tyranid Prime review.
Tyranid Prime:
The Tyranid Prime is the cheap mans HQ. It is not a Tyrant. It will not wade into a horde of soldiers and kill anything with impunity. It will not easily kill any major special characters and most generics that have been kitted out. The Tyranid Prime is not there to lead the horde from the front, but to support it.
1. It is the only Independent Character left in the codex.
2. It is one of the few to have the option to buy assault grenades.
3. It is moderately versatile.
4. Its cheap.
Lets be frank.You took this because its cheap. You didn't take it for durability because it has very little in that regard. A single lucky S10 hit is going to take him out. So, keep that in mind as you kit it because your looking at the only Tyranid HQ with a permanent kick me sign on it's much-more-expensive-this-edition back. If you are taking this, you had better be going for overkill in your other slots because you will need to pick up the slack.
To go into the basic options, you are looking at a Tyranid Warrior with boosted stat line but with some catches. The Tyranid Prime can only bring its stat line to real benefit inside a unit of Warriors who also benefit from several boosted stats. So, to put it bluntly, your paying the price of a Flyrant and then some for 12 wounds at majority toughness 4 with Look out Sir to keep your HQ alive. This will only make it a much larger target and fair easier to kill. So, why bother? Simple, Bio-artefacts. The Tyranid Prime can pick up the Miasma Cannon which with its stateline, is a fairly good option to get some shots in, and it can function in tandem with a small unit of warriors armed with a barbed strangler to ensure some good output. Beyond that, if you are feeling bold, the Norn Crown is an expensive but useful option to put on this thing. Just make sure to not go overboard on options, because this thing will have quite a bit gunning for it. For close combat, a light approach of Maw Claws of Thyrax, Flesh Hooks, and a Lashwhip and Bonesword will carry it through most conflicts fairly comfortably at 160 points with some good benefits if it goes hunting characters.
For transportation purposes, it can use a Trygon tunnel or a pod at a cost. The best option is to take a pod with a small retinue of 3-4 warriors and use them like a tactical squad of terminators. Upon landing, use the boosted ballistic skill to fire into whatever your target it, and prepare for assault in the next turn. The pod can also make up for the lack of bodies because it also has multiple devourers to help weaken the enemy unit. If you upgraded your retinue's melee weapons to rending claws, you can get a bit more mileage out of them and hopefully wipe out a unit in the following turn.
Grades: B (Miasma Prime), C(Pod Prime), D (Vanilla)
I'd argue that LS/BS and scy talon prime hidden in a unit of 17 HGaunts with adrenal or poison in a pod is a baby freight train for high toughness multi wound models.
Eldercaveman wrote: I'd argue that LW/BS and scy talon prime hidden in a unit of 17 HGaunts with adrenal or poison in a pod is a baby freight train for high toughness multi wound models.
Upgrade the pod to Barbed Stranglers and pray for pinning so whatever your going after is snapshooting and... oh god...that will hurt.
So guys, if you want to make changes to your unit write-ups, just post the complete re-write here or PM me and I will make the corrections/edits (more like copy and paste them ) onto p. 1 of the main tactica.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Ha! Called it for the most part. Anyhow, here is the Tyranid Prime review.
Tyranid Prime:
The Tyranid Prime is the cheap mans HQ. It is not a Tyrant. It will not wade into a horde of soldiers and kill anything with impunity. It will not easily kill any major special characters and most generics that have been kitted out. The Tyranid Prime is not there to lead the horde from the front, but to support it.
1. It is the only Independent Character left in the codex.
2. It is one of the few to have the option to buy assault grenades.
3. It is moderately versatile.
4. Its cheap.
Lets be frank.You took this because its cheap. You didn't take it for durability because it has very little in that regard. A single lucky S10 hit is going to take him out. So, keep that in mind as you kit it because your looking at the only Tyranid HQ with a permanent kick me sign on it's much-more-expensive-this-edition back. If you are taking this, you had better be going for overkill in your other slots because you will need to pick up the slack.
To go into the basic options, you are looking at a Tyranid Warrior with boosted stat line but with some catches. The Tyranid Prime can only bring its stat line to real benefit inside a unit of Warriors who also benefit from several boosted stats. So, to put it bluntly, your paying the price of a Flyrant and then some for 12 wounds at majority toughness 4 with Look out Sir to keep your HQ alive. This will only make it a much larger target and fair easier to kill. So, why bother? Simple, Bio-artefacts. The Tyranid Prime can pick up the Miasma Cannon which with its stateline, is a fairly good option to get some shots in, and it can function in tandem with a small unit of warriors armed with a barbed strangler to ensure some good output. Beyond that, if you are feeling bold, the Norn Crown is an expensive but useful option to put on this thing. Just make sure to not go overboard on options, because this thing will have quite a bit gunning for it. For close combat, a light approach of Maw Claws of Thyrax, Flesh Hooks, and a Lashwhip and Bonesword will carry it through most conflicts fairly comfortably at 160 points with some good benefits if it goes hunting characters.
For transportation purposes, it can use a Trygon tunnel or a pod at a cost. The best option is to take a pod with a small retinue of 3-4 warriors and use them like a tactical squad of terminators. Upon landing, use the boosted ballistic skill to fire into whatever your target it, and prepare for assault in the next turn. The pod can also make up for the lack of bodies because it also has multiple devourers to help weaken the enemy unit. If you upgraded your retinue's melee weapons to rending claws, you can get a bit more mileage out of them and hopefully wipe out a unit in the following turn.
Grades: B (Miasma Prime), C(Pod Prime), D (Vanilla)
I'd argue that LS/BS and scy talon prime hidden in a unit of 17 HGaunts with adrenal or poison in a pod is a baby freight train for high toughness multi wound models.
If he's equipped with Maw Claws and LS/BS won't he be choosing which to use, and not combining the weapons?
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
so to summarise this book: it grants us Legal access to 3 Flyrants for tournaments. that's the only good thing I can really see. the Hypertoxic thing does sound kinda cool...but who wants 3 venoms?!
Sinful Hero wrote: If he's equipped with Maw Claws and LS/BS won't he be choosing which to use, and not combining the weapons?
Maw Claws are funny like that. You don't need the rending off them really as you already have ID options on 6s. Your going for the cheap access to Preferred Enemy. All they have to be is equipped, and your good to go.
Clarification: You only need the Maw Claws for that first real kill. Yes, they don't combine.
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
so to summarise this book: 3 Flyrants + Formation/ lose OS.
Yeah, but honestly, I don't mind. I can still get ObSec units through Skyblight.
Tyran wrote: Double Cad, 6 Flyrants and 6 Mucolids for 1530 pts.
Unfortunately for us here in the US, most tournaments don't allow for double-CAD. But thanks to the new formation, we can now run quad-flyrants using self-ally or by running a formation such as Skyblight.
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
Where does it say you loose Objec Secured?
I'm a big fan of the Hypertoxic Node. Not exactly sure what's not to like there Tag!
Eldercaveman wrote: I'd argue that LW/BS and scy talon prime hidden in a unit of 17 HGaunts with adrenal or poison in a pod is a baby freight train for high toughness multi wound models.
Upgrade the pod to Barbed Stranglers and pray for pinning so whatever your going after is snapshooting and... oh god...that will hurt.
That is a bad idea. Too Much friendly fire, especially when you can just give the Prime Flesh Hooks for 5 points.
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
so to summarise this book: 3 Flyrants + Formation/ lose OS.
Yeah, but honestly, I don't mind. I can still get ObSec units through Skyblight.
Tyran wrote: Double Cad, 6 Flyrants and 6 Mucolids for 1530 pts.
Unfortunately for us here in the US, most tournaments don't allow for double-CAD. But thanks to the new formation, we can now run quad-flyrants using self-ally or by running a formation such as Skyblight.
You won't be able to use the bastion under the Leviathan Detachment
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
so to summarise this book: 3 Flyrants + Formation/ lose OS.
Yeah, but honestly, I don't mind. I can still get ObSec units through Skyblight.
Tyran wrote: Double Cad, 6 Flyrants and 6 Mucolids for 1530 pts.
Unfortunately for us here in the US, most tournaments don't allow for double-CAD. But thanks to the new formation, we can now run quad-flyrants using self-ally or by running a formation such as Skyblight.
You won't be able to use the bastion under the Leviathan Detachment
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
Where does it say you loose Objec Secured?
I'm a big fan of the Hypertoxic Node. Not exactly sure what's not to like there Tag!
The Hive Fleet detachment does not have Objective Secured as one of its Command Benefits. Instead, it has Adaptive Instincts, where you can re-roll your Instinctive Behavior tests.
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
Where does it say you loose Objec Secured?
I'm a big fan of the Hypertoxic Node. Not exactly sure what's not to like there Tag!
The Hive Fleet detachment does not have Objective Secured as one of its Command Benefits. Instead, it has Adaptive Instincts, where you can re-roll your Instinctive Behavior tests.
Honestly, how often does ObSec make a difference in your games?
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
Where does it say you loose Objec Secured?
I'm a big fan of the Hypertoxic Node. Not exactly sure what's not to like there Tag!
The Hive Fleet detachment does not have Objective Secured as one of its Command Benefits. Instead, it has Adaptive Instincts, where you can re-roll your Instinctive Behavior tests.
Well, that sucks. I guess I've just not come across an army (Besides unbound) that lost objective secured, so I never realized it was a command benefit.
Honestly, how often does ObSec make a difference in your games?
ObSec isn't as big a deal anymore for bugs. That is because their competitive builds do not rely on ObSec units taking objectives, but rather, on overloading the opponent with more threats than they can handle. Our lists work much better with the emphasis on units that contribute to the Tyranid offensive machine than to units just holding objectives. That is why fundamentally, we are going down and down with our troop count.
It used to be tervigon + 30 termagants. It then became units of 10 horm/termagants, which then changed to 3 rippers. The newest evolution of our troops - the mucolids - can't even score at all!
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
Where does it say you loose Objec Secured?
I'm a big fan of the Hypertoxic Node. Not exactly sure what's not to like there Tag!
The Hive Fleet detachment does not have Objective Secured as one of its Command Benefits. Instead, it has Adaptive Instincts, where you can re-roll your Instinctive Behavior tests.
Well, that sucks. I guess I've just not come across an army (Besides unbound) that lost objective secured, so I never realized it was a command benefit.
It's the new trend now. All the new codices - Orks, Space Wovles, Dark Eldar, Grey Knights and now Tyranids - have lost ObSec with their formations. You can see that trend going forwards when codices get updated. So ironically, in a year or 2, Skyblight gargoyles will be very good again as less and less people are running ObSec builds anymore.
Honestly, how often does ObSec make a difference in your games?
ObSec isn't as big a deal anymore for bugs. That is because their competitive builds do not rely on ObSec units taking objectives, but rather, on overloading the opponent with more threats than they can handle. Our lists work much better with the emphasis on units that contribute to the Tyranid offensive machine than to units just holding objectives. That is why fundamentally, we are going down and down with our troop count.
It used to be tervigon + 30 termagants. It then became units of 10 horm/termagants, which then changed to 3 rippers. The newest evolution of our troops - the mucolids - can't even score at all!
I'm in complete agreement with you on this one Jy, Tyranids win games, despite their troops.
Honestly, how often does ObSec make a difference in your games?
ObSec isn't as big a deal anymore for bugs. That is because their competitive builds do not rely on ObSec units taking objectives, but rather, on overloading the opponent with more threats than they can handle. Our lists work much better with the emphasis on units that contribute to the Tyranid offensive machine than to units just holding objectives. That is why fundamentally, we are going down and down with our troop count.
It used to be tervigon + 30 termagants. It then became units of 10 horm/termagants, which then changed to 3 rippers. The newest evolution of our troops - the mucolids - can't even score at all!
This is a sad excuse for game design and it's effects on the way the game has evolved too.....Troops are the backbone of every army, as they should be. When your troops suck, the army is generally terrible. Tyranids are proof of this. OTOH, if our troops were costed in line with other armies we'd be talking.
Termagants are priced appropriately, but not worth taking anymore
Hormagaunts need to drop 2 points OR get the old scything talon rule back
Genestealers need to cost 10-11 points to be worthwhile
Rippers are costed appropriately, but wouldn't ever be taken without the deep strike option
Warriors are ridiculously over costed....either the stock warrior should cost 20 points, or they need to gain T5 at their current cost....
I'm not saying we have the WORST end of the troop stick, but the game would be much better off if troops had a higher importance in the game...
(EDIT). I'm also not saying that Tyranids are terribad....mainly their troops choices. Because Tyranids (partly) don't play the actual game (Kind of like Flying Circus deamons), the troops are less important.
The Tyranid Warrior is the heart of the swarm and is used in many of the formations.
1. Super versatility allows it to take on a wide variety of jobs with little problem.
2. Has access to assault grenades
3. Psychic support for the army.
The Tyranid Warrior has lived a long and checkered past, having often been switched to worthwhile to worthless as meta constantly shifts around it. The Tyranid Warrior acts in much the same way as a cheaper, more easily disposable terminator. The crux of the problem comes from the toughness value of the warrior. At T4, a warrior is the equal of most marines, but costs just under 3 times the cost. Against S8 and greater, a warrior has very little in the way of defense. However, by keeping to small units it is much easier to mitigate losses to large strength weapons while also maximizing firepower. The standard option clocks in at 90 points and serves little purpose just moving up, unless working within other formations which allow Tyranid Warriors to augment and boost those around them. The recommended option is a small group of 3 with a bio cannon at 100 points. Depending on your strategy, a group of 3 entrenched in cover with a barbed strangler will have good chances of survival and can keep enemy flamers and heavy weapons pinned down as the rest of the swarm rapidly moves into their respective gun ranges. The other option that works well for hunting vehicles or multi-wound xenos or human characters is the Venom cannon. It is fully capable of working on AV12, though anything stronger will give you problems.
Mobilty can be a bit of a problem for warriors, though there are ways to get around that. Each squad can have quite the presence on the board which is reinforced by their large size. Always make sure to keep them in cover or melee to avoid casualties. The maximum size is 9, but rarely should a person field more than 4-5 in a single squad, in order to ensure that the footprint remains small and they do not attract too much attention, as anyone who stares at them too long is going to start feeling itchy with their big guns. Once you get in close, you want to avoid standing around for multiple turns in the open shooting. Use your devourers and jump right into the mix, and even stock Tyranid Warriors should be able to hold their own for several turns. If you are going after a more melee concentrated brood, then consider keeping them rather small, and in transport. The only real transport options for the Tyranid Warrior are Trygon tunnels or a pod. Taking the pod will be your best bet in almost every circumstance. Give one warrior a LW/BS combination and consider him a sergeant. From there, you can go in several directions. You can give the remaining 2-5 rending claws and go full melee, or keep devourers on them to allow them to soften up before the assault, which in most circumstances will be your best bet. You do not need to give every warrior in a CC oriented brood every shiny option when it comes down to it. If you have the points for a Prime, see if you can't keep them all together.
In a pod, you can keep 5 warriors and a Prime. That is a bit point heavy however, so try and shave it where you can elsewhere. Your Prime should be doing most of the work, but take advantage of stat line boosts where applicable. Upgrade 2 more with rending claws and scything talons and keep the rest stock, and you have a much more durable attack platform. Use some wound shenanigans to keep them all rotating out to take damage, and you can also use the Tyranid Prime to tank S8-9 shots. Ideally, you want the brunt of all your melee damage to be taken on your stock warriors to free up the rending claw warriors to survive longer to roll those 6s.
Grades: B (Gunboat Warriors), B (Pod Warriors), D (CC Walk Warriors), D (Vanilla)
Hormagaunts are usually seen as an alternative to the deep striking rippers as mandatory troops. Depending on your list composition of heavy hitters you may want those guys in. Alternatively you can go out all out on Hgaunts and TGants and play an horde style list. Following here is a list of things you want to consider when talking about Hgaunts:
1. Hormagaunts may look like a cheap troop, but they actually are not. Remember that nids have Tgants, rippers and Mucolids for a cheaper troop choice. Take these guys only if you have a real reason, if not then there are better mandatory troops.
2. Hormagaunts are fast. Not as fast as beasts or jump infantry, but for their cost they are indeed fast between fleet and leap. They will get into assault range by turn 2 many times.
3. Do not expect vanilla hormagaunts to provide damage, that is not their role. They will make a mess out of certain units, but that will not happen commonly.
With that said why would you take Hgaunts, what is their intended role? Well at this point it is necessary to distinguish between vanilla hormagaunts and upgraded hormagaunts.
Vanillla hormagaunts are the most commonly used and are great for screening, tarpitting, objective grabbing and assault linking.
1) Screening: Since the rule clarification that you don't need to be 25% covered by a model to get the cover save but a toe in a ripper will suffice, these guys became an interesting alternative to the more commonly used screeners. While they cost 25% more than Tgants, they will never risk to slow down your dakkafex/exocrine/whatever. At the same time they cost 16% less than gargoyles (and are obj sec). Remember to bring a shroud source with you when doing this, or the hormagaunts will be an even better target than a dakkafex for the bolters on a point per average wound basis. 2) Tarpitting: When tarpitting with nids it is either gargoiles or hormagaunts. Luckily both of them are really good at this. Gargoiles are better due to the jump infantry type and the blinding venom even if they cost more. If you want pure tarpitting go for them. Take hormagaunts if you also need them for their other roles. 3) Objective grabbing: Here the best are the deepstriking rippers. Cheaper, easier to hide and deepstriking. Hormagaunts are close second though, with the highest speed between our obj sec troops and an high model count for conga lining. 4) Assault linking: This is where Hgaunts are the best. Assault a model with a slaughter unit (Dimacherion, Carnifex, Toxicrene etc..) and at the same time multi assault that model and another unit with a unit of hormagaunts. You will get 2 benefits: first your hormagaunts will eat up the overwatch and secondly when that inital assaulted model gets slaughtered you force an harsh leadership check on the second unit while in meele with an high initiative unit. Remember that glancing and penetrating hits count for resolution and tanks are indeed the best initial targets for this maneuver. Hgaunts have fleet and high initiative for a low cost, which makes them better at this than Tgants and Gargoiles.
As you see they are not the best at anything but they are a good second choice for all of those roles, with the point 4 being an exception but it is an uncommon occurance (but can win games, keep an eye out for it). So if you need just mandatory troops or strongly need one role in particular skip Hgaunts. If you need an all round troop choice than can be spent in any of those roles then consider Hgaunts.
Upgraded Hormagaunts are almost never seen and there is a reson. They cost! For a 1W T3 6+ model they can get to ridiculous costs. That said: a) If you need anti rear AV 10 and can't honestly get anything better then AG Hgaunts can be an option. They are fairly good at it, but will bleed points like mad when targeted. b) If you expect to face high T targets like WKnights or Nurgle babies then consider Venom Hgaunts. If you can get them on their favorite target then they can get to tear jerking efficiency, if not they will again be point bleeders at the smallest sign of enemy fire. c) Do not consider AG + Venom Gaunts. Never.
Grades: C (Vanilla Hormagaunts), D (Single upgrade Hgaunts) E (Double Upgrade Hormagaunts)
I think you are wrong in several important ways, but instead of arguing, let me offer an alternative take.
A View from the Maelstrom of war: Hormagaunt: Tyranid's lack quality troops available to other armies. However, one often overlooked gem is the min squad of vanilla hormagants also known as a Maelstrom Winner.
1) The best scorers in the codex. Their mobility enhancements allows them to move 13.5" on average. They can get to an objective anywhere on the board in 2 turns and do so reliably, and score it when they get there thanks to Objective secured. They aren't Eldar Jetbike good, but they are close.
2) Board Control. This may mean congalining across multiple objectives to contest them, or getting in the way of an imperial knight, or other deathstar. They are a unit that can move past midfield on turn one, and push the opponent to the outside and edges of the board.
3) Objective Denial. Even a min squad can stretch across multiple objectives to deny them.
4) MC Protection. Hormagaunts are a good screening unit because they move faster than anything they can screen. They are also an assault denial unit. By placing themselves between an MC and a unit that would like to assault it they can prevent assaults and frustrate opponents allowing MC's to continue putting out damage.
5) The Anvil. While Hormagaunts are the best scorers available to Tyranids, they also have the ability to neutralize enemy shooting. Even a min squad can hold up most shooty units for a turn until something killy can get there to deal with it. Thanks to their smaller base and profile, hormagants are even better at this than gargoyles because they usually won't deny a charge to the heavies coming behind them. Against many things, a malanthrope can offer enough hammer to deal with the shooty unit.
6) Deployment Aid. Why do Tyranids fear drop pods? Because they don't have enough hormagants and gargoyles. By spacing them out around your MC's you can deny drop pods the position that they would like to alpha strike.
7) Cover Saves. When there is no terrain to hide in, Hormagants can become mobile terrain. Thanks to their low cost, and low threat profile, they aren't likely to take fire.
8) Assault linking. If you have a model capable of chalking up wounds, you can send that model into some kroot, and the hormagants can multi-assault a riptide and the kroot allowing you to quickly eliminate potential threats.
9) MSU. Unlike Termagants, Hormagants can quickly spread out across the board giving your opponents a rough time tracking them down.
10) Drawing Fire. In many situations Hormagants can be used to successfully draw fire away from MC's. If they contest an important objective, or just get in the way, suddenly shots must be wasted on them. With a Malanthrope sidekick, they are always more durable than expected, and thanks to the decent squad sizes they can congaline into terrain or out of Line of Sight.
Other ways to run hormagants. 1) Wraith Knight's nightmare: 20 hormagants with Toxin sacs strike fear into the hearts of many MC's and elite infantry. 2) Transport Killer: 15 hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands can deal with most transports in the game, and also are better equipped to kill MEQ than Poison gants. On average it will take 9 AG Gants to kill a 3 hullpoint vehicle with back armor 10. 3) The Tarpit: 20+ Hormagants with no upgrades can tarpit walkers easily. A good Solution to kill Elite infantry. 4) Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard. 17 hormagants w/ a Tyranid prime in a Tyrannocyte. They can give the prime fleet, ablative wounds, and extra attacks to deal with 2+ armor.
Grades: A (Maelstrom Winner). B (Wraith Knight's Nightmare). B- (Transport Killer). B (The Tarpit), C (Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard)
Hormagaunts are usually seen as an alternative to the deep striking rippers as mandatory troops. Depending on your list composition of heavy hitters you may want those guys in.
Alternatively you can go out all out on Hgaunts and TGants and play an horde style list.
Following here is a list of things you want to consider when talking about Hgaunts:
1. Hormagaunts may look like a cheap troop, but they actually are not. Remember that nids have Tgants, rippers and Mucolids for a cheaper troop choice. Take these guys only if you have a real reason, if not then there are better mandatory troops.
2. Hormagaunts are fast. Not as fast as beasts or jump infantry, but for their cost they are indeed fast between fleet and leap. They will get into assault range by turn 2 many times.
3. Do not expect vanilla hormagaunts to provide damage, that is not their role. They will make a mess out of certain units, but that will not happen commonly.
With that said why would you take Hgaunts, what is their intended role? Well at this point it is necessary to distinguish between vanilla hormagaunts and upgraded hormagaunts.
Vanillla hormagaunts are the most commonly used and are great for screening, tarpitting, objective grabbing and assault linking.
1) Screening: Since the rule clarification that you don't need to be 25% covered by a model to get the cover save but a toe in a ripper will suffice, these guys became an interesting alternative to the more commonly used screeners. While they cost 25% more than Tgants, they will never risk to slow down your dakkafex/exocrine/whatever. At the same time they cost 16% less than gargoyles (and are obj sec). Remember to bring a shroud source with you when doing this, or the hormagaunts will be an even better target than a dakkafex for the bolters on a point per average wound basis.
2) Tarpitting: When tarpitting with nids it is either gargoiles or hormagaunts. Luckily both of them are really good at this. Gargoiles are better due to the jump infantry type and the blinding venom even if they cost more. If you want pure tarpitting go for them. Take hormagaunts if you also need them for their other roles.
3) Objective grabbing: Here the best are the deepstriking rippers. Cheaper, easier to hide and deepstriking. Hormagaunts are close second though, with the highest speed between our obj sec troops and an high model count for conga lining.
4) Assault linking: This is where Hgaunts are the best. Assault a model with a slaughter unit (Dimacherion, Carnifex, Toxicrene etc..) and at the same time multi assault that model and another unit with a unit of hormagaunts. You will get 2 benefits: first your hormagaunts will eat up the overwatch and secondly when that inital assaulted model gets slaughtered you force an harsh leadership check on the second unit while in meele with an high initiative unit. Remember that glancing and penetrating hits count for resolution and tanks are indeed the best initial targets for this maneuver. Hgaunts have fleet and high initiative for a low cost, which makes them better at this than Tgants and Gargoiles.
As you see they are not the best at anything but they are a good second choice for all of those roles, with the point 4 being an exception but it is an uncommon occurance (but can win games, keep an eye out for it). So if you need just mandatory troops or strongly need one role in particular skip Hgaunts. If you need an all round troop choice than can be spent in any of those roles then consider Hgaunts.
Upgraded Hormagaunts are almost never seen and there is a reson. They cost! For a 1W T3 6+ model they can get to ridiculous costs. That said:
a) If you need anti rear AV 10 and can't honestly get anything better then AG Hgaunts can be an option. They are fairly good at it, but will bleed points like mad when targeted.
b) If you expect to face high T targets like WKnights or Nurgle babies then consider Venom Hgaunts. If you can get them on their favorite target then they can get to tear jerking efficiency, if not they will again be point bleeders at the smallest sign of enemy fire.
c) Do not consider AG + Venom Gaunts. Never.
Grades: C (Vanilla Hormagaunts), D (Single upgrade Hgaunts) E (Double Upgrade Hormagaunts)
I think you are wrong in several important ways, but instead of arguing, let me offer an alternative take.
A View from the Maelstrom of war: Hormagaunt: Tyranid's lack quality troops available to other armies. However, one often overlooked gem is the min squad of vanilla hormagants also known as a Maelstrom Winner.
Spoiler:
1) The best scorers in the codex. Their mobility enhancements allows them to move 13.5" on average. They can get to an objective anywhere on the board in 2 turns and do so reliably, and score it when they get there thanks to Objective secured. They aren't Eldar Jetbike good, but they are close.
2) Board Control. This may mean congalining across multiple objectives to contest them, or getting in the way of an imperial knight, or other deathstar. They are a unit that can move past midfield on turn one, and push the opponent to the outside and edges of the board.
3) Objective Denial. Even a min squad can stretch across multiple objectives to deny them.
4) MC Protection. Hormagaunts are a good screening unit because they move faster than anything they can screen. They are also an assault denial unit. By placing themselves between an MC and a unit that would like to assault it they can prevent assaults and frustrate opponents allowing MC's to continue putting out damage.
5) The Anvil. While Hormagaunts are the best scorers available to Tyranids, they also have the ability to neutralize enemy shooting. Even a min squad can hold up most shooty units for a turn until something killy can get there to deal with it. Thanks to their smaller base and profile, hormagants are even better at this than gargoyles because they usually won't deny a charge to the heavies coming behind them. Against many things, a malanthrope can offer enough hammer to deal with the shooty unit.
6) Deployment Aid. Why do Tyranids fear drop pods? Because they don't have enough hormagants and gargoyles. By spacing them out around your MC's you can deny drop pods the position that they would like to alpha strike.
7) Cover Saves. When there is no terrain to hide in, Hormagants can become mobile terrain. Thanks to their low cost, and low threat profile, they aren't likely to take fire.
8) Assault linking. If you have a model capable of chalking up wounds, you can send that model into some kroot, and the hormagants can multi-assault a riptide and the kroot allowing you to quickly eliminate potential threats.
9) MSU. Unlike Termagants, Hormagants can quickly spread out across the board giving your opponents a rough time tracking them down.
10) Drawing Fire. In many situations Hormagants can be used to successfully draw fire away from MC's. If they contest an important objective, or just get in the way, suddenly shots must be wasted on them. With a Malanthrope sidekick, they are always more durable than expected, and thanks to the decent squad sizes they can congaline into terrain or out of Line of Sight.
Other ways to run hormagants.
1) Wraith Knight's nightmare: 20 hormagants with Toxin sacs strike fear into the hearts of many MC's and elite infantry.
2) Transport Killer: 15 hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands can deal with most transports in the game, and also are better equipped to kill MEQ than Poison gants. On average it will take 9 AG Gants to kill a 3 hullpoint vehicle with back armor 10.
3) The Tarpit: 20+ Hormagants with no upgrades can tarpit walkers easily. A good Solution to kill Elite infantry.
4) Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard. 17 hormagants w/ a Tyranid prime in a Tyrannocyte. They can give the prime fleet, ablative wounds, and extra attacks to deal with 2+ armor.
Grades: A (Maelstrom Winner). B (Wraith Knight's Nightmare). B- (Transport Killer). B (The Tarpit), C (Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard)
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
Where does it say you loose Objec Secured?
I'm a big fan of the Hypertoxic Node. Not exactly sure what's not to like there Tag!
The Hive Fleet detachment does not have Objective Secured as one of its Command Benefits. Instead, it has Adaptive Instincts, where you can re-roll your Instinctive Behavior tests.
Honestly, how often does ObSec make a difference in your games?
Almost every game. Local FLGS is all straight Maelstrom.
zerosignal wrote: Tyranid detachment looks interesting. Note you lose obsec though. IB re-rolls means you now have a 1:3 chance of getting the 'good' result... \o/
Where does it say you loose Objec Secured?
I'm a big fan of the Hypertoxic Node. Not exactly sure what's not to like there Tag!
The Hive Fleet detachment does not have Objective Secured as one of its Command Benefits. Instead, it has Adaptive Instincts, where you can re-roll your Instinctive Behavior tests.
Honestly, how often does ObSec make a difference in your games?
Almost every game. Local FLGS is all straight Maelstrom.
One of my clubs uses straight Maelstrom, and I've never had it come up.
Tyran wrote: How much does the Skytide cost? has anyone has made the math?
It's a Tyrant plus 20-60 Gargoyles. So a standard Tyrant and minimal Gargoyles is 360.
I would be tempted to change the standard loadout for a melee version though so you can Jink tank (and the Skytyrant cannot Swoop while with Gargoyles). For added fun, throw in Toxic Miasma, which works off of the unit, not the model...
This gives your unit a huge footprint, is something unusual (always a good way to throw someone off balance) and spreads out your opponent's target priority. A Skytyrant is hard to kill, and is the source of your reliably returning broods of Gargoyles and Spore Mines. On the other hand, your Warlord is Swooping around being threatening with quad-Devourers (and so are his friends).
So I don't quite know how Death from the Skies is going to work, but we get our own table. Note that other factions, such as Orks, Tau, Necrons, SM etc, have their own tables, they are spread out over several pages in the book.
What's better than a Flyrant with four wounds? A Flyrant with five wounds.
Frozocrone wrote: So I don't quite know how Death from the Skies is going to work, but we get our own table. Note that other factions, such as Orks, Tau, Necrons, SM etc, have their own tables, they are spread out over several pages in the book.
What's better than a Flyrant with four wounds? A Flyrant with five wounds.
Frozocrone wrote: So I don't quite know how Death from the Skies is going to work, but we get our own table. Note that other factions, such as Orks, Tau, Necrons, SM etc, have their own tables, they are spread out over several pages in the book.
What's better than a Flyrant with four wounds? A Flyrant with five wounds.
how many points is that??
edit: I mean, how many melta guns does it equal?
Haha I wish I knew. Unfortunately I have limited access to the book (get my physical copy hopefully Saturday if I can wake up quick enough )
Frozocrone wrote: So I don't quite know how Death from the Skies is going to work, but we get our own table. Note that other factions, such as Orks, Tau, Necrons, SM etc, have their own tables, they are spread out over several pages in the book.
What's better than a Flyrant with four wounds? A Flyrant with five wounds.
how many points is that??
edit: I mean, how many melta guns does it equal?
Haha I wish I knew. Unfortunately I have limited access to the book (get my physical copy hopefully Saturday if I can wake up quick enough )
Hormagaunts are usually seen as an alternative to the deep striking rippers as mandatory troops. Depending on your list composition of heavy hitters you may want those guys in.
Alternatively you can go out all out on Hgaunts and TGants and play an horde style list.
Following here is a list of things you want to consider when talking about Hgaunts:
1. Hormagaunts may look like a cheap troop, but they actually are not. Remember that nids have Tgants, rippers and Mucolids for a cheaper troop choice. Take these guys only if you have a real reason, if not then there are better mandatory troops.
2. Hormagaunts are fast. Not as fast as beasts or jump infantry, but for their cost they are indeed fast between fleet and leap. They will get into assault range by turn 2 many times.
3. Do not expect vanilla hormagaunts to provide damage, that is not their role. They will make a mess out of certain units, but that will not happen commonly.
With that said why would you take Hgaunts, what is their intended role? Well at this point it is necessary to distinguish between vanilla hormagaunts and upgraded hormagaunts.
Vanillla hormagaunts are the most commonly used and are great for screening, tarpitting, objective grabbing and assault linking.
1) Screening: Since the rule clarification that you don't need to be 25% covered by a model to get the cover save but a toe in a ripper will suffice, these guys became an interesting alternative to the more commonly used screeners. While they cost 25% more than Tgants, they will never risk to slow down your dakkafex/exocrine/whatever. At the same time they cost 16% less than gargoyles (and are obj sec). Remember to bring a shroud source with you when doing this, or the hormagaunts will be an even better target than a dakkafex for the bolters on a point per average wound basis.
2) Tarpitting: When tarpitting with nids it is either gargoiles or hormagaunts. Luckily both of them are really good at this. Gargoiles are better due to the jump infantry type and the blinding venom even if they cost more. If you want pure tarpitting go for them. Take hormagaunts if you also need them for their other roles.
3) Objective grabbing: Here the best are the deepstriking rippers. Cheaper, easier to hide and deepstriking. Hormagaunts are close second though, with the highest speed between our obj sec troops and an high model count for conga lining.
4) Assault linking: This is where Hgaunts are the best. Assault a model with a slaughter unit (Dimacherion, Carnifex, Toxicrene etc..) and at the same time multi assault that model and another unit with a unit of hormagaunts. You will get 2 benefits: first your hormagaunts will eat up the overwatch and secondly when that inital assaulted model gets slaughtered you force an harsh leadership check on the second unit while in meele with an high initiative unit. Remember that glancing and penetrating hits count for resolution and tanks are indeed the best initial targets for this maneuver. Hgaunts have fleet and high initiative for a low cost, which makes them better at this than Tgants and Gargoiles.
As you see they are not the best at anything but they are a good second choice for all of those roles, with the point 4 being an exception but it is an uncommon occurance (but can win games, keep an eye out for it). So if you need just mandatory troops or strongly need one role in particular skip Hgaunts. If you need an all round troop choice than can be spent in any of those roles then consider Hgaunts.
Upgraded Hormagaunts are almost never seen and there is a reson. They cost! For a 1W T3 6+ model they can get to ridiculous costs. That said:
a) If you need anti rear AV 10 and can't honestly get anything better then AG Hgaunts can be an option. They are fairly good at it, but will bleed points like mad when targeted.
b) If you expect to face high T targets like WKnights or Nurgle babies then consider Venom Hgaunts. If you can get them on their favorite target then they can get to tear jerking efficiency, if not they will again be point bleeders at the smallest sign of enemy fire.
c) Do not consider AG + Venom Gaunts. Never.
Grades: C (Vanilla Hormagaunts), D (Single upgrade Hgaunts) E (Double Upgrade Hormagaunts)
I think you are wrong in several important ways, but instead of arguing, let me offer an alternative take.
A View from the Maelstrom of war: Hormagaunt: Tyranid's lack quality troops available to other armies. However, one often overlooked gem is the min squad of vanilla hormagants also known as a Maelstrom Winner.
Spoiler:
1) The best scorers in the codex. Their mobility enhancements allows them to move 13.5" on average. They can get to an objective anywhere on the board in 2 turns and do so reliably, and score it when they get there thanks to Objective secured. They aren't Eldar Jetbike good, but they are close.
2) Board Control. This may mean congalining across multiple objectives to contest them, or getting in the way of an imperial knight, or other deathstar. They are a unit that can move past midfield on turn one, and push the opponent to the outside and edges of the board.
3) Objective Denial. Even a min squad can stretch across multiple objectives to deny them.
4) MC Protection. Hormagaunts are a good screening unit because they move faster than anything they can screen. They are also an assault denial unit. By placing themselves between an MC and a unit that would like to assault it they can prevent assaults and frustrate opponents allowing MC's to continue putting out damage.
5) The Anvil. While Hormagaunts are the best scorers available to Tyranids, they also have the ability to neutralize enemy shooting. Even a min squad can hold up most shooty units for a turn until something killy can get there to deal with it. Thanks to their smaller base and profile, hormagants are even better at this than gargoyles because they usually won't deny a charge to the heavies coming behind them. Against many things, a malanthrope can offer enough hammer to deal with the shooty unit.
6) Deployment Aid. Why do Tyranids fear drop pods? Because they don't have enough hormagants and gargoyles. By spacing them out around your MC's you can deny drop pods the position that they would like to alpha strike.
7) Cover Saves. When there is no terrain to hide in, Hormagants can become mobile terrain. Thanks to their low cost, and low threat profile, they aren't likely to take fire.
8) Assault linking. If you have a model capable of chalking up wounds, you can send that model into some kroot, and the hormagants can multi-assault a riptide and the kroot allowing you to quickly eliminate potential threats.
9) MSU. Unlike Termagants, Hormagants can quickly spread out across the board giving your opponents a rough time tracking them down.
10) Drawing Fire. In many situations Hormagants can be used to successfully draw fire away from MC's. If they contest an important objective, or just get in the way, suddenly shots must be wasted on them. With a Malanthrope sidekick, they are always more durable than expected, and thanks to the decent squad sizes they can congaline into terrain or out of Line of Sight.
Other ways to run hormagants.
1) Wraith Knight's nightmare: 20 hormagants with Toxin sacs strike fear into the hearts of many MC's and elite infantry.
2) Transport Killer: 15 hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands can deal with most transports in the game, and also are better equipped to kill MEQ than Poison gants. On average it will take 9 AG Gants to kill a 3 hullpoint vehicle with back armor 10.
3) The Tarpit: 20+ Hormagants with no upgrades can tarpit walkers easily. A good Solution to kill Elite infantry.
4) Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard. 17 hormagants w/ a Tyranid prime in a Tyrannocyte. They can give the prime fleet, ablative wounds, and extra attacks to deal with 2+ armor.
Grades: A (Maelstrom Winner). B (Wraith Knight's Nightmare). B- (Transport Killer). B (The Tarpit), C (Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard)
As i said, i'm full of hormagaunt love, but these guides are for everyone, we must write down what is commonly accepted.
And come on if Dakka Flyrants are B how can you rate Hgaunts A.
C is a good rate i think. Useful in their right contest but not seen in many lists i.e. a well designed model.
I'm getting these off a Tyranid facebook group, someone got it early and was kind enough to post pictures for us all to see
I guess I could do a full 360 degree rotation, I'd be bound to point at them at some point
Annnnd stop.
No not me!!
Haha, anyhow Thanks for shareing man! It's appreciated!
In regards to the 3 HQ's- I think I might be more excited of the prospect of running deathleaper as my warlord to keep him alive than I am a third Flyrant.
I mean, is a third Flyrant nessesary if you are running 2 already?
I'm getting these off a Tyranid facebook group, someone got it early and was kind enough to post pictures for us all to see
I guess I could do a full 360 degree rotation, I'd be bound to point at them at some point
Annnnd stop.
No not me!!
Haha, anyhow Thanks for shareing man! It's appreciated!
In regards to the 3 HQ's- I think I might be more excited of the prospect of running deathleaper as my warlord to keep him alive than I am a third Flyrant.
I mean, is a third Flyrant nessesary if you are running 2 already?
I dunno, 3 Flyrants is still pretty gnarly. Still, it opens up additional HQ options without having to buy the fourth Troop choice
I'm getting these off a Tyranid facebook group, someone got it early and was kind enough to post pictures for us all to see
I guess I could do a full 360 degree rotation, I'd be bound to point at them at some point
Annnnd stop.
No not me!!
Haha, anyhow Thanks for shareing man! It's appreciated!
In regards to the 3 HQ's- I think I might be more excited of the prospect of running deathleaper as my warlord to keep him alive than I am a third Flyrant.
I mean, is a third Flyrant nessesary if you are running 2 already?
I agree. I see this as more of us gaining "permission" to use some of the other HQs in the book, now that we can have our 2 flyrants (cake?) and another HQ too.
Are fighter Aces not usually allowed in game? Most of these upgrades seem to be well worth the points cost for a roll. I would gladly pay 35 for my Warlord to roll on that table!
I actually can't believe that no one has said this yet - guys, in a standard BAO/2 source tournament (which most majors are) we could take FIVE FLYRANTS. FIVE. Is that the most balanced build? Probably not, and having a presence on the ground through Skyblight with "only" four Flyrants is probably better. But FIVE. Wave serpents, watch out. We can apparently spam now too
I'll definitely jump on some of those unit analyses, but I'm on my phone right now. Just had to say that haha
jifel wrote: Are fighter Aces not usually allowed in game? Most of these upgrades seem to be well worth the points cost for a roll. I would gladly pay 35 for my Warlord to roll on that table!
This^^ I think it's well worth paying 35 points to either get an extra wound or be able to LEAVE THE TABLE and never get dropped on if you position correctly. On a 3+. The 1-2 is kind of meh but I'd throw that on my warlord at least
jifel wrote: Are fighter Aces not usually allowed in game? Most of these upgrades seem to be well worth the points cost for a roll. I would gladly pay 35 for my Warlord to roll on that table!
that page clearly says it's fine but just costs 35 pts tax!
Tyranids have two. Am I mistaken? Does leviathan count as its own combined arms detachment? Can we not take Codex: Tyranids primary and leviathan as another source without going dual cad?
luke1705 wrote: Tyranids have two. Am I mistaken? Does leviathan count as its own combined arms detachment? Can we not take Codex: Tyranids primary and leviathan as another source without going dual cad?
it counts as its own detachment, so you won't be able to have that + a CAD in a tournament - most of them anyway
The Pyrovore has long been infamous as quite possibly the worst unit in the codex and the game at large. Happily, that is no longer the case, and it serves as a fairly loose middle road.
1. It has reliable firepower for clearing objectives and hordes.
2. It benefits from the Promethium relay, which can support it in either a defensive or offensive capacity.
The major weakness of the Pyrovore lies in its mobility. Unfortunately, the Pyrovore just happens to be an incredibly slow moving platform with very little in the way for options to get around faster. However, once kitted out with some transportation, they can actually become far more effective. Each of them is armed with a heavy flamer, so going after hordes is generally the most commonly accepted method of use, however they can also get a good bit of mileage out of going after dedicated assault units. Setting a nice juicy unit of Terminators on fire is going to make back a fair portion of its points back, and then the terminators are going to have to consider the following. Do I assault 3 flamers and take 3d3 automatic overwatch hits, or ignore them and get flamed every turn?
The only reliable transport options for Pyrovores are to take Trygon tunnels or hitching a ride inside a pod. Now, taking a pod is cheaper than the Trygon and waiting subsequent turns and gives it more time on the field to earn back points. It also seems to be the much better tactic in that you can hug it and force your opponent into a multi-assault. Eating a nest of devourers plus a group of 3 flamers in overwatch is going to be a bit much for most standard units that these things will be pitted against and it should allow you to either kill or tarpit the unit for several turns.
Promethium Relays will give your Pyrovores some range, but these fortifications are stationary and as long as your opponent avoids it, there is very little your Pyrovores can do to help make back points. This would only be recommended in a defensive scenario.
Grades: C (Podvores), D (Tunvores), D (Promvores), F (Vanilla)
You didn't mention how awesome they are for clearing cover saves and open topped, a critical role for us and a job they do better than any unit in the codex. They outdamage Biovores and Tyrannofex to practically any target in the game. You also didn't mention the excellent fact that they are Elite's not heavy. I cannot agree with the C rating. It's ridiculously low for an outstanding unit.
Also, given that taking them to deploy through a tunnel from a Trygon (one of the worst 200 point investments in the game) is a strategy that will still have them coming in from the board edge anyway over 80% of the time, I can see absolutely no reason for Podvores to be but one rank lower than Tunnelvores. That just makes zero sense.
Is your post all theorycraft, or have you actually played some games with the Pyrovore in pods? Hard to think that anyone who has could possibly see this as a C-Grade unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yet you gave the Tyranid Prime a B, and both reviews got posted to the front page.... That is crazy.
jifel wrote: Are fighter Aces not usually allowed in game? Most of these upgrades seem to be well worth the points cost for a roll. I would gladly pay 35 for my Warlord to roll on that table!
This^^ I think it's well worth paying 35 points to either get an extra wound or be able to LEAVE THE TABLE and never get dropped on if you position correctly. On a 3+. The 1-2 is kind of meh but I'd throw that on my warlord at least
From today on I'm taking fighter ace flyrants on every single one I use.
Carnifex Overall rating = A- The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids.
This seems like the complete opposite description of why to take a Carnifex, almost every build already has two Flyrants that do exactly this and little else offensively. In fact, the only reason Carnifexes aren't autoinclude is because Flyrants (who are in pretty much every way, Carnifexes with Wings and Synapse) are a must have for Synapse and mobility, and further points spent on S6 Dakka MIGHT be a little redundant over things like AP2 blasts and cover ignoring weaponry, tarpits, heavy assault, etc, depending on your build. Carnifex is still an awesome model and maybe the most spammable unit in the dex, at the end of the day, the reason to take it is because you feel you have your bases covered well enough and he's probably the most cost efficient source of damage output in the dex. There's no way he isn't an A+ model or just an A at worst, he is at the very top tier of the power level of individual units in our dex. Flyrant may have Synapse and wings but he pays 100 pts more for it (and is also an A+ model). I usually agree with what you say Frozo, I just think you might have missed the mark a bit with this tactica.
Tyran wrote: Can you buy Fighter Ace for a Harridan?
No, the Harridan is a Flying Gargantuan Creature, not a FMC.
@SHUPPET, I marked it as a A- as it does have some drawbacks that I mentioned, like needing Synapse to function (or else it may not make use of it's ranged weapons for a turn) and it is the least durable TMC (Maleceptor, what Maleceptor) that Nids have. Even with these drawbacks, it's still a fantastic unit and one of the top HS options.
That said, people have commented on my post and I do intend to edit it when I have a more time on my hands.
Hormagaunts are usually seen as an alternative to the deep striking rippers as mandatory troops. Depending on your list composition of heavy hitters you may want those guys in.
Alternatively you can go out all out on Hgaunts and TGants and play an horde style list.
Following here is a list of things you want to consider when talking about Hgaunts:
1. Hormagaunts may look like a cheap troop, but they actually are not. Remember that nids have Tgants, rippers and Mucolids for a cheaper troop choice. Take these guys only if you have a real reason, if not then there are better mandatory troops.
2. Hormagaunts are fast. Not as fast as beasts or jump infantry, but for their cost they are indeed fast between fleet and leap. They will get into assault range by turn 2 many times.
3. Do not expect vanilla hormagaunts to provide damage, that is not their role. They will make a mess out of certain units, but that will not happen commonly.
With that said why would you take Hgaunts, what is their intended role? Well at this point it is necessary to distinguish between vanilla hormagaunts and upgraded hormagaunts.
Vanillla hormagaunts are the most commonly used and are great for screening, tarpitting, objective grabbing and assault linking.
1) Screening: Since the rule clarification that you don't need to be 25% covered by a model to get the cover save but a toe in a ripper will suffice, these guys became an interesting alternative to the more commonly used screeners. While they cost 25% more than Tgants, they will never risk to slow down your dakkafex/exocrine/whatever. At the same time they cost 16% less than gargoyles (and are obj sec). Remember to bring a shroud source with you when doing this, or the hormagaunts will be an even better target than a dakkafex for the bolters on a point per average wound basis.
2) Tarpitting: When tarpitting with nids it is either gargoiles or hormagaunts. Luckily both of them are really good at this. Gargoiles are better due to the jump infantry type and the blinding venom even if they cost more. If you want pure tarpitting go for them. Take hormagaunts if you also need them for their other roles.
3) Objective grabbing: Here the best are the deepstriking rippers. Cheaper, easier to hide and deepstriking. Hormagaunts are close second though, with the highest speed between our obj sec troops and an high model count for conga lining.
4) Assault linking: This is where Hgaunts are the best. Assault a model with a slaughter unit (Dimacherion, Carnifex, Toxicrene etc..) and at the same time multi assault that model and another unit with a unit of hormagaunts. You will get 2 benefits: first your hormagaunts will eat up the overwatch and secondly when that inital assaulted model gets slaughtered you force an harsh leadership check on the second unit while in meele with an high initiative unit. Remember that glancing and penetrating hits count for resolution and tanks are indeed the best initial targets for this maneuver. Hgaunts have fleet and high initiative for a low cost, which makes them better at this than Tgants and Gargoiles.
As you see they are not the best at anything but they are a good second choice for all of those roles, with the point 4 being an exception but it is an uncommon occurance (but can win games, keep an eye out for it). So if you need just mandatory troops or strongly need one role in particular skip Hgaunts. If you need an all round troop choice than can be spent in any of those roles then consider Hgaunts.
Upgraded Hormagaunts are almost never seen and there is a reson. They cost! For a 1W T3 6+ model they can get to ridiculous costs. That said:
a) If you need anti rear AV 10 and can't honestly get anything better then AG Hgaunts can be an option. They are fairly good at it, but will bleed points like mad when targeted.
b) If you expect to face high T targets like WKnights or Nurgle babies then consider Venom Hgaunts. If you can get them on their favorite target then they can get to tear jerking efficiency, if not they will again be point bleeders at the smallest sign of enemy fire.
c) Do not consider AG + Venom Gaunts. Never.
Grades: C (Vanilla Hormagaunts), D (Single upgrade Hgaunts) E (Double Upgrade Hormagaunts)
I think you are wrong in several important ways, but instead of arguing, let me offer an alternative take.
A View from the Maelstrom of war: Hormagaunt: Tyranid's lack quality troops available to other armies. However, one often overlooked gem is the min squad of vanilla hormagants also known as a Maelstrom Winner.
Spoiler:
1) The best scorers in the codex. Their mobility enhancements allows them to move 13.5" on average. They can get to an objective anywhere on the board in 2 turns and do so reliably, and score it when they get there thanks to Objective secured. They aren't Eldar Jetbike good, but they are close.
2) Board Control. This may mean congalining across multiple objectives to contest them, or getting in the way of an imperial knight, or other deathstar. They are a unit that can move past midfield on turn one, and push the opponent to the outside and edges of the board.
3) Objective Denial. Even a min squad can stretch across multiple objectives to deny them.
4) MC Protection. Hormagaunts are a good screening unit because they move faster than anything they can screen. They are also an assault denial unit. By placing themselves between an MC and a unit that would like to assault it they can prevent assaults and frustrate opponents allowing MC's to continue putting out damage.
5) The Anvil. While Hormagaunts are the best scorers available to Tyranids, they also have the ability to neutralize enemy shooting. Even a min squad can hold up most shooty units for a turn until something killy can get there to deal with it. Thanks to their smaller base and profile, hormagants are even better at this than gargoyles because they usually won't deny a charge to the heavies coming behind them. Against many things, a malanthrope can offer enough hammer to deal with the shooty unit.
6) Deployment Aid. Why do Tyranids fear drop pods? Because they don't have enough hormagants and gargoyles. By spacing them out around your MC's you can deny drop pods the position that they would like to alpha strike.
7) Cover Saves. When there is no terrain to hide in, Hormagants can become mobile terrain. Thanks to their low cost, and low threat profile, they aren't likely to take fire.
8) Assault linking. If you have a model capable of chalking up wounds, you can send that model into some kroot, and the hormagants can multi-assault a riptide and the kroot allowing you to quickly eliminate potential threats.
9) MSU. Unlike Termagants, Hormagants can quickly spread out across the board giving your opponents a rough time tracking them down.
10) Drawing Fire. In many situations Hormagants can be used to successfully draw fire away from MC's. If they contest an important objective, or just get in the way, suddenly shots must be wasted on them. With a Malanthrope sidekick, they are always more durable than expected, and thanks to the decent squad sizes they can congaline into terrain or out of Line of Sight.
Other ways to run hormagants.
1) Wraith Knight's nightmare: 20 hormagants with Toxin sacs strike fear into the hearts of many MC's and elite infantry.
2) Transport Killer: 15 hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands can deal with most transports in the game, and also are better equipped to kill MEQ than Poison gants. On average it will take 9 AG Gants to kill a 3 hullpoint vehicle with back armor 10.
3) The Tarpit: 20+ Hormagants with no upgrades can tarpit walkers easily. A good Solution to kill Elite infantry.
4) Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard. 17 hormagants w/ a Tyranid prime in a Tyrannocyte. They can give the prime fleet, ablative wounds, and extra attacks to deal with 2+ armor.
Grades: A (Maelstrom Winner). B (Wraith Knight's Nightmare). B- (Transport Killer). B (The Tarpit), C (Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard)
As i said, i'm full of hormagaunt love, but these guides are for everyone, we must write down what is commonly accepted.
And come on if Dakka Flyrants are B how can you rate Hgaunts A.
C is a good rate i think. Useful in their right contest but not seen in many lists i.e. a well designed model.
So your vision of Tacticas is that they should reflect conventional wisdom no matter how wrong it might be, and that writing a tactica for "everyone" means writing it only for players who play exclusively eternal war missions? I strongly doubt that is even a majority of people.
I'm not undercutting your Tactica. It is pretty much correct if you only run Eternal War missions, especially if you play in a limited meta that doesn't include Drop Pods, Orks, or IG. I just added an alternative view for those who might run Maelstrom or partial Maelstrom.
Also, I wouldn't grade a Dakkaflyrant as a B. A to A+ depending on how you grade it. I think that is how JY2 graded it.
I'm not undercutting your Tactica. It is pretty much correct if you only run Eternal War missions, especially if you play in a limited meta that doesn't include Drop Pods, Orks, or IG. I just added an alternative view for those who might run Maelstrom or partial Maelstrom.
Haha. "I'm not saying that your wrong, just that you are only right in ridiculously specific situations."
I agree with you both however. Horms are a really good troop. But that's not saying much because our troops in general suck. I think C is the correct rating for Horms.
A little over two years ago my wife and I started playing Warhammer. Tyranids were a motley crew, with 2 Tyrants and tervigons abound recommended. Your best bet was Trygons in the heavy support.
Now...theres a gajillion bizarre ass rules to make a list. It makes me feel like a new player all over again, Warhammer has gotten ridiculous.
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Tag,
I think you may be one of the people who plays maelstrom more than most others on this forum. Maybe your contribution could be amending or giving an addendum to some units based on the differences in their usefulness in Maelstrom. I'll be honest - the closest I usually get to Maelstrom is still modified maelstrom of some sort (BAO secondaries, etc) and that is just not the same thing.
Frozocone,
I haven't read the fighter ace rules in detail, but gargantuan creatures are a subset of monstrous creatures. Can't be a gargantuan creature and not a monstrous creature. You can argue semantics that gargantuan creatures are a more specific subset of monstrous creatures, which are not given permission to be fighter aces. However, if being a monstrous creature is the only pre-requisite, then by RAW they're in. That being said, I think they actually benefit from it less than our other bugs. You're just not going to kill a harridan. 1-2 are useless, literally. And it really doesn't need another wound, or the ability to out-maneuver enemy fighters. MAYBE if you could pick the upgrade (thereby guaranteeing 5-6) for a harridan it would be nice, but as as? Nah
Tyran wrote: Can you buy Fighter Ace for a Harridan?
@SHUPPET, I marked it as a A- as it does have some drawbacks that I mentioned, like needing Synapse to function (or else it may not make use of it's ranged weapons for a turn) and it is the least durable TMC (Maleceptor, what Maleceptor) that Nids have. Even with these drawbacks, it's still a fantastic unit and one of the top HS options.
That said, people have commented on my post and I do intend to edit it when I have a more time on my hands.
Then most the codex has this drawback. It's silly to mark a unit down for this, especially when the Flyrant pays so much for it. It's not worse for not having Synapse, it's just different. In fact, if he was 40 points more and had Synapse (aka Walking Tyrant) you would never see him played. It's important that he doesn't have Synapse because you can get that coverage elsewhere, he is important for cheaply spammable Devourers and threatening every single vehicle in the game. A+ I think is the only fair rating for Dakkafex, I could accept A, but A minus suggests it's at the bottom of the toptier units in the dex, which is farrr from the truth.
I've spent over 5+ hours looking and locating all I need (book-wise) to run the new nids. I stopped playing them awhile back when the new nids book droppped and there is A LOT of new rules/models/etc.
Feels like I spent the entire day trying to figure out what's available to the nids, let alone what is good or viable xD
That being said, I agree with lechine! Haha. However, I'm grateful that GW released all this new content. After a few hundred lists and playtests, I'm sure there will be plenty of lists that will be competitive.
Also, tag has touched on something that many of us should strive to emulate in any unit reviews that we conduct. What is a unit's purpose? How well does it achieve that purpose? How well does it achieve a secondary or tertiary purpose that someone may or may not want to use it for?
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
SHUPPET wrote: You didn't mention how awesome they are for clearing cover saves and open topped, a critical role for us and a job they do better than any unit in the codex. They outdamage Biovores and Tyrannofex to practically any target in the game. You also didn't mention the excellent fact that they are Elite's not heavy. I cannot agree with the C rating. It's ridiculously low for an outstanding unit.
Also, given that taking them to deploy through a tunnel from a Trygon (one of the worst 200 point investments in the game) is a strategy that will still have them coming in from the board edge anyway over 80% of the time, I can see absolutely no reason for Podvores to be but one rank lower than Tunnelvores. That just makes zero sense.
Is your post all theorycraft, or have you actually played some games with the Pyrovore in pods? Hard to think that anyone who has could possibly see this as a C-Grade unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yet you gave the Tyranid Prime a B, and both reviews got posted to the front page.... That is crazy.
Neither post is done. No single person will write the review. While my work will lay the background, this is a community effort. Just let me know what I missed and I can work it into the review. Now for the next part... Tunvores are below Podvores because it takes 2 turns in order for Pyrovores to use the tunnel. A very slow deployment. Makes sense to me. Now. No unit ever gets an A. As are unreachable. Pyrovores are slow, and have to rely on others for transport. A C is about all I feel it deserves.
Saythings wrote: I've spent over 5+ hours looking and locating all I need (book-wise) to run the new nids. I stopped playing them awhile back when the new nids book droppped and there is A LOT of new rules/models/etc.
Feels like I spent the entire day trying to figure out what's available to the nids, let alone what is good or viable xD
That being said, I agree with lechine! Haha. However, I'm grateful that GW released all this new content. After a few hundred lists and playtests, I'm sure there will be plenty of lists that will be competitive.
Wrong attitude. There is already plenty of competitive lists being posted every day. The INSANE internal balance GW has blessed us with means there is no longer one or two "best" ways to play Nids. It's not about waiting for someone to discover the optimal build here, there isn't one.
SHUPPET wrote: You didn't mention how awesome they are for clearing cover saves and open topped, a critical role for us and a job they do better than any unit in the codex. They outdamage Biovores and Tyrannofex to practically any target in the game. You also didn't mention the excellent fact that they are Elite's not heavy. I cannot agree with the C rating. It's ridiculously low for an outstanding unit.
Also, given that taking them to deploy through a tunnel from a Trygon (one of the worst 200 point investments in the game) is a strategy that will still have them coming in from the board edge anyway over 80% of the time, I can see absolutely no reason for Podvores to be but one rank lower than Tunnelvores. That just makes zero sense.
Is your post all theorycraft, or have you actually played some games with the Pyrovore in pods? Hard to think that anyone who has could possibly see this as a C-Grade unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yet you gave the Tyranid Prime a B, and both reviews got posted to the front page.... That is crazy.
Neither post is done. No single person will write the review. While my work will lay the background, this is a community effort. Just let me know what I missed and I can work it into the review. Now for the next part... Tunvores are below Podvores because it takes 2 turns in order for Pyrovores to use the tunnel. A very slow deployment. Makes sense to me. Now. No unit ever gets an A. As are unreachable. Pyrovores are slow, and have to rely on others for transport. A C is about all I feel it deserves.
Yes but why is one of the better units available in the dex (Pyrovores in pods) only one rank higher than a gimmicky, beyond unreliable strategy that hurts the Pyrovore instead of helping it more than 4 times out 5, and costs an additional 200 points sunk into one of the worst units in the dex (Trygon)?
It doesn't make sense to me.
For the price of a squad of Biovores, you have a unit that hits harder, more reliably, and you have more control over who the templates catch and wound allocation. The downside has always been no mobility for fairly ineffecient durability, but now they can take a Cyte and roll straight in. The trade off being you are right up in their face, but meh the rest of your army probably should be too. And when they die, they blow up. And if they don't die they are great in assault. You might not want to give them an A, but I think A- or B+ at the minimum is deserved. They are better than B grade stuff like Tyrannofex, and only slightly less useable than A grade stuff like Biovores (who win out for being in Living Artillery)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, why does not unit get an A? We are ranking the units in our codex in tiers, it kind of makes sense that our VERY best unit(s) sit at A+, and unplayable crap sits at F for fail. Otherwise we just have a useless tier, and the subtle suggestion that alot of our best units are lacking A grade potential, which is kind of untrue, and doesn't strike me as a sensible way of structuring the grading tiers. At all.
That being said, if you aren't going to give anyone an A, that means B is your highest, and I have to ask, why on earth would you give your highest ranking available to a Tyranid Prime? They are an overpriced, highly niche unit that fights with Flyrant for a slot. I don't know, I just think putting a little more thought into reviews that are going to get posted on the front page might be nice.
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
I'm not saying that two good units can't have the same designation of "take them without reservations and you will not regret it". All I'm saying is that the carnifex is not without drawbacks. It is very good, don't get me wrong. But for example, when you claim that lack of synapse isn't a drawback, it absolutely is. When it fails a LD test, it can kill itself. That's not cool. Also, it is unable to do anything on the turn that it smacks itself. Should this ever happen if you play it right? Of course not, but that's like saying, "should a shrike ever be taking an armor save outside of all cover?" Of course not - don't be silly. Use cover, thropes of your choosing (except Zoans haha) and intervening models at worst. However, that doesn't mean that their 5+ armor isn't a drawback - it absolutely is the definition of a drawback. Much like the carnifexes inability to flip tanks whenever he wants to because he is not fast enough to chase down his metallic prey much of the time. That is a problem when you want to use carnifexes to can open tanks. So to just say, "they are great anti-AV 13/14, take these guys and your mech problems are solved" is incredibly misleading (and that is the implication when you give a unit an A+ rating and say "it's good anti-armor"). I think A- to A is a fair designation, but A+ is reaching a bit for a unit that has so many issues (maybe A+ when you throw him in a pod or roll MOA.....oh MOA....)
Automatically Appended Next Post: One more thing Shuppet, I think we should try and avoid comparison ratings for FOC slots. We can always say, "why would you take Deathleaper/any other HQ slot - Flyrants are so much better". However, that does not inherently hurt the functionality of that unit and I think it's best to look at a unit by what it can do for your army instead of the opportunity cost associated with taking it over other units. Maybe worth mentioning, but that doesn't inherently change the rating for any given unit. Don't let the flyrant wreck the curve
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
I'm not saying that two good units can't have the same designation of "take them without reservations and you will not regret it". All I'm saying is that the carnifex is not without drawbacks. It is very good, don't get me wrong. But for example, when you claim that lack of synapse isn't a drawback, it absolutely is. When it fails a LD test, it can kill itself. That's not cool. Also, it is unable to do anything on the turn that it smacks itself. Should this ever happen if you play it right? Of course not, but that's like saying, "should a shrike ever be taking an armor save outside of all cover?" Of course not - don't be silly. Use cover, thropes of your choosing (except Zoans haha) and intervening models at worst. However, that doesn't mean that their 5+ armor isn't a drawback - it absolutely is the definition of a drawback. Much like the carnifexes inability to flip tanks whenever he wants to because he is not fast enough to chase down his metallic prey much of the time. That is a problem when you want to use carnifexes to can open tanks. So to just say, "they are great anti-AV 13/14, take these guys and your mech problems are solved" is incredibly misleading (and that is the implication when you give a unit an A+ rating and say "it's good anti-armor"). I think A- to A is a fair designation, but A+ is reaching a bit for a unit that has so many issues (maybe A+ when you throw him in a pod or roll MOA.....oh MOA....)
This is talking like Flyrants don't pay biggest pulls isn't the fact that it has Synapse. It's basically a 90 point upgrade to Dakkafex for Synapse and wings, which in turn makes it the best Synapse unit in the dex. Including 2 of them is pretty standard for almost every build. If they did not have Synapse they would be much worse, because these give you a bulk of Synapse coverage. Now, once you have a bulk of Synapse coverage - why do your Dakkafexes that are either rushing up the board with them, or deepstriking in, want to ALSO be paying more for Synapse? It would basically ramp them up to Trygon prices, and the fact that they don't have Synapse is important to how they work in UNISON with your army. Yes it won't always be helpful, but it's definitely better than spending extra points on them to make them un-necessary Synapse carries. Remember, Flyrant DOES pay for this Synapse ability, and if he couldn't take wings as well, he would be worth it (take a look at walking Tyrant - they aren't played just because Flyrants are so good, they aren't played because they are overpriced.)
One more thing Shuppet, I think we should try and avoid comparison ratings for FOC slots. We can always say, "why would you take Deathleaper/any other HQ slot - Flyrants are so much better". However, that does not inherently hurt the functionality of that unit and I think it's best to look at a unit by what it can do for your army instead of the opportunity cost associated with taking it over other units. Maybe worth mentioning, but that doesn't inherently change the rating for any given unit. Don't let the flyrant wreck the curve
Well, this is just wrong. It completely affects the viability of a unit. We aren't playing unbound, so every single unit taken comes at the cost of taking another possible unit in the same slot. For a slot that only has 2 positions, and in this slot is the very best unit of the dex, a unit that covers many VERY important roles, it is very relevant. It doesn't make Deathleapers affect on the board any less, but it does affect the rest of your army, especially if you are making the sacrifice of a Flyrant to take one if a Flyrant would be the better model here. It's unfortunate that this is how it works, but this IS how it works. May not be enough to change the rating of a unit on it's own merits, but it's always worth mentioning, and definitely a plus to units that sit in the Fast Attack, Troop, and Elite slots for us.
Quick note about Synapse, it depends on the unit type. For example, Mawlocs don't really care about Feed being a single model and actually benefit if they roll for Rage. Same with Exocrine and Hunt, it still gets to shoot it's big gun and can't Go to Ground, avoiding the worst result.
When I talk about Carnifexes, they have the option to buy more Carnifex or Biocannons. Their IB, Feed, directly effects their ability to shoot their weapons, meaning with a bad roll you can lose 30 points worth of shooting if you take Devourers, which is a lot of firepower. If taking more than one in a Brood, they become vulnerable to the worst IB for Feed. In my eyes, this cannot qualify for A+ status. A status, at best (but as I said, it's can be focused down quite easily only having four wounds) which formed the basis of my A- grading. It's still a versatile unit that provides a lot of good options for Tyranids so A tier was the minimum you can really put it in.
I would like the rest of the communities opinion on this, I am taking notes all around and will change it if their is a general opinion they should be rated higher than A-. Truth be told, I think it sits on the border between A and A-, but I'm a harsh critic and went for A-.
So to just say, "they are great anti-AV 13/14, take these guys and your mech problems are solved" is incredibly misleading (and that is the implication when you give a unit an A+ rating and say "it's good anti-armor").
Yup. Please show me, where I have said anything even resembling this statement, during the entire duration of this thread from the first page onwards. It's not what I've ever implied.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: Quick note about Synapse, it depends on the unit type. For example, Mawlocs don't really care about Feed being a single model and actually benefit if they roll for Rage. Same with Exocrine and Hunt, it still gets to shoot it's big gun and can't Go to Ground, avoiding the worst result.
When I talk about Carnifexes, they have the option to buy more Carnifex or Biocannons. Their IB, Feed, directly effects their ability to shoot their weapons, meaning with a bad roll you can lose 30 points worth of shooting if you take Devourers, which is a lot of firepower. If taking more than one in a Brood, they become vulnerable to the worst IB for Feed. In my eyes, this cannot qualify for A+ status. A status, at best (but as I said, it's can be focused down quite easily only having four wounds) which formed the basis of my A- grading. It's still a versatile unit that provides a lot of good options for Tyranids so A tier was the minimum you can really put it in.
I would like the rest of the communities opinion on this, I am taking notes all around and will change it if their is a general opinion they should be rated higher than A-. Truth be told, I think it sits on the border between A and A-, but I'm a harsh critic and went for A-.
BTW, are we all in agreement for Stone Crushers?
In which case I think the Flyrant should be marked down as well, because it's only so good on the fact that it has Synapse, which might just end up being ineffecient points at times, at least enough to take the unit down to an A-.
This is a silly way to look at units, and most circumstances its an excellent thing that Carnifex is not paying the prices that Tyrants do for their Synapse, just as most circumstances make Flyrant an excellent Synapse carrier. this and should not be looked at as a negative to either unit.
ObSec isn't as big a deal anymore for bugs. That is because their competitive builds do not rely on ObSec units taking objectives, but rather, on overloading the opponent with more threats than they can handle. Our lists work much better with the emphasis on units that contribute to the Tyranid offensive machine than to units just holding objectives. That is why fundamentally, we are going down and down with our troop count.
It used to be tervigon + 30 termagants. It then became units of 10 horm/termagants, which then changed to 3 rippers. The newest evolution of our troops - the mucolids - can't even score at all!
This is a sad excuse for game design and it's effects on the way the game has evolved too.....Troops are the backbone of every army, as they should be. When your troops suck, the army is generally terrible. Tyranids are proof of this. OTOH, if our troops were costed in line with other armies we'd be talking.
Termagants are priced appropriately, but not worth taking anymore
Hormagaunts need to drop 2 points OR get the old scything talon rule back
Genestealers need to cost 10-11 points to be worthwhile
Rippers are costed appropriately, but wouldn't ever be taken without the deep strike option
Warriors are ridiculously over costed....either the stock warrior should cost 20 points, or they need to gain T5 at their current cost....
I'm not saying we have the WORST end of the troop stick, but the game would be much better off if troops had a higher importance in the game...
(EDIT). I'm also not saying that Tyranids are terribad....mainly their troops choices. Because Tyranids (partly) don't play the actual game (Kind of like Flying Circus deamons), the troops are less important.
Unfortunately, I actually agree with you to a certain degree. The optimal Tyranid army nowadays definitely is not troopcentric despite GW's attempts to make the game more centered around the troops. That is mainly because GW has made all the non-troop choices too good and Tyranid troops just too lacklaster. With just a few tweaks - including some of your suggestions - Tyranid troops can be trendy again, but that probably isn't going to happen for while, especially since GW is trending away from ObSec with non-ObSec formations with each new release of a codex.
Then again, for as long as I have played the game, there have always been (and will always be) armies that just take min troops and focus the army almost entirely on all the other non-troop FOC choices. It's just a playstyle that, no matter how hard GW tries to veer us away, will always exist.
The Tyranid Warrior is the heart of the swarm and is used in many of the formations.
1. Super versatility allows it to take on a wide variety of jobs with little problem.
2. Has access to assault grenades
3. Psychic support for the army.
Added.
tag8833 wrote: I think you are wrong in several important ways, but instead of arguing, let me offer an alternative take.
A View from the Maelstrom of war: Hormagaunt: Tyranid's lack quality troops available to other armies. However, one often overlooked gem is the min squad of vanilla hormagants also known as a Maelstrom Winner.
I think your perspective of the hormagant can be used to supplement the tactica. I will include it as an alternative viewpoint to Spoletta, both to complement and as a contrast to his views.
I agree Jy2 and roxor, troops need a fixing. Roxor's points on troops are pretty correct as well.
One thing I would say is that I don't think Termagants are costed appropriately, they need to be cheaper still imo.
Also (not contesting just asking) what is the Psychic Support added by Warriors? SitW? I know its probably super obvious just wondering what I'm missing for it to be labelled as a dotpoint
I'm not undercutting your Tactica. It is pretty much correct if you only run Eternal War missions, especially if you play in a limited meta that doesn't include Drop Pods, Orks, or IG. I just added an alternative view for those who might run Maelstrom or partial Maelstrom.
Haha. "I'm not saying that your wrong, just that you are only right in ridiculously specific situations."
Yep. Too many edits and not enough proof reading turn me into a Hypocrite.
I was suggesting and addendum not a replacement. Spoletta's tactica was pretty good, but was missing out on part of the picture. In the same way that a Lictor Tactica that approached them from the perspective of MSU, and doesn't consider situations where MSU is not as useful (I.E. the Relic, Emperor's Will, Kill Points) would be incomplete.
Well, I do agree with everything you said. Our troops are crappy, but mandatory, and I think Horm should maybe even get an A or a B for being one of our best choice for the slot alot of the time since it is a mandatory, hes a great choice.
Carnifexes Background When one thinks of a Tyranid army, one of the first models to come to mind is the Carnifex. One of the most iconic Tyranid models to be in existance, especially in 4th edition where Carnifexes could also be taken in Elites. As fifth edition came out, they became redundant with the arrival of the new Trygon and lack of option to be taken as an Elite and slowly started to gather dust. Following the arrival of 6th edition, Carnifexes were hailed as one of the shining stars of the Codex, getting a notable points decrease as well as being able to take multiples in a brood, opening up Heavy Support options. As 7th edition rolled out they came to be the only Monstrous Creature in the Tyranid Codex that wasn't nerfed by the changes to Smash, making use of it's standard base 9 Strength to deal with anything that comes across its path.
Competitive Setting A Carnifex Brood uses one of the Heavy Support slots in a Tyranid army. It follows a standard TMC statline, with WS3, BS3, T6 with a 3+ Armour Save. As it does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it will revert to Instinctive Behaviour outside of Synapse, of which the Carnifex rolls on the Feed table. Where the Carnifex starts to differ is that it only has 4 Wounds, making it not as durable as other TMC's and is Initiative 2, meaning that it strikes at the same speed as the lowly Ork and is out sped by anything that isn't a Power Fist or equivalent. However, where it lacks in speed, it makes up for in sheer brutality, sporting 3 attacks at base S9. Combined with it's Living Battering Ram special rule that grants it D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks instead of one, this makes it one of the premier options that Tyranids have for opening AV13/14.
Melee Weapons Scything Talons - Carnifexes come equipped with two pairs of Scything Talons. Although being nerfed, they do allow for customization of a Carnifex by exchanging a pair for Wargear upgrades.
For those that want to keep Carnifexes cheap, this is a good option.
Crushing Claws - Crushing Claws grants a Carnifex S10 in Close Combat (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), allowing it to Instant Kill T5 as well as giving it the Armourbane USR, making it more likely to Penetrate AV13-14.
For Carnifexes designed for vehicle hunting, this is a good option.
Monstrous Bio-Cannons Twin-Linked Deathspitter - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Deathspitter, granting it three 18" TL shots at S5 AP5. This is not very good, especially when taken in context, it is outclassed by another Monstrous Biocannon.
This is a bad option.
Twin-Linked Devourer with Brainleech worms - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a TL Devourer with Brainleech Worms, granting it six 18" TL shots at S6 AP-. This allows a Carnifex to be multi-purpose, wounding Infantry through number of shots, as well as Light Armour and in emergencies, ground based AA.
This is a good option.
Stranglethorn Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Stranglethorn Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S6 AP5 Large Blast, Pinning Shot. The Stranglethorn Cannon may only be taken once per model and may not be taken with the Heavy Venom Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to act as a Infantry killer and support smaller Tyranids by potentially making it harder to shoot at them. However, with a Carnifexes bad Ballistic Skill, it might scatter off the target and is in general, outclassed by Biovores, who give three Large Blast Templates at a large ranger for the price of a standard Carnifex.
This is a bad option.
Heavy Venom Cannon - A Carnifex may replace one pair of Scything Talons with a Heavy Venom Cannon, granting it one 36" shot at S9 AP4 Blast. Only one Heavy Venom Cannon may be taken per model and may not be taken with the Stranglethorn Cannon. This allows a Carnifex to fire a single S9 shot before it charges a vehicle, making it easier to wreck vehicles, as well as Instant Killing T4. For Carnifexes designed for Vehicles-hunting, this could be the last glancing hit you need to wreck that vehicle.
This is a decent option.
Biomorphs Toxin Sacs A Carnifex with Toxin Sacs has the Poisoned USR. This, combined with the natural S9 of the Carnifex, will normally allow it to re-roll failed to Wound rolls. However, the Carnifex only has 3 attacks base and WS3, meaning you might not get to make use of the re-roll to wounds.
This is a decent option.
Acid Blood A Carnifex with Acid Blood the ability to inflict a S5 AP2 hit per unsaved wound in Close Combat. This looks quite good, until you realise the Carnifex only has four Wounds, as well as the opponent having to take an Initiative before the hit can apply.
This is a bad option.
Adrenal Glands. A Carnifex with Adrenal Glands has the Fleet and Furious Charge USR. This allows a Carnifex to have S10 on the charge (note, not for Hammer of Wrath), as well as re-roll Run and Charge distances. This makes getting into combat much easier and combined with the Onslaught Psychic Power, allows Carnifexes to get into position quickly to start firing any Ranged Weapons they have.
This is a good option.
Regeneration. A Carnifex with Regeneration has the ability to regain lost wounds at the end of the game turn on a 4+. This looks promising, until one realizes it is the least durable Monstrous Creature that Tyranids have, on virtue of it having the fewest amount of Wounds (aside the Hive Tyrant, which can mitigate this with the Catalyst Psychic Power and Wings for a FMC profile) and only has a 3+ armour save coupled with it's Toughness characteristic of 6, meaning it can be focused fired down before it can make use of Regeneration.
This is a bad option.
Tail Biomorphs Thresher Scythe - A Carnifex with a Thresher Scythe may make an additional S4 AP4 attack with the Rending special rule in close combat. Considering that the Carnifex that is in combat is usually geared for vehicle killing, this is not likely to help.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - A Carnifex with a Bone Mace may make an additional S8 AP - attack in close combat. They cost the same as Crushing Claws which will more reliably open vehicles, but if you feel that you are not destroying vehicles enough, it grants additional attack that may cause that final glancing hit.
This is a decent option.
Options Additional Carnifexes - a Carnifex Brood may take up to two more Carnifexes. This allows a Tyranid player to shift Carnifexes around for Wound allocation purposes making the brood more durable, as well as have more Carnifexes without using up the Heavy Support slots. Any Carnifex brood consisting of two or three Carnifexes can not make use of the Tyrannocyte, making this option a speed vs durability argument.It is important to note however, that any Carnifex Brood with two or three models, are vulnerable to the harshest Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
Spine Banks - A Carnifex with Spine Banks may fire one 8" shot at S3 AP- Blast and is treated as having Assault Grenades. This is generally not worth it as the damage output is so low and Carnifexes have a low Initiative to begin with.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma - A Carnifex with Bio=Plasma may fire one 12" shot at S7 AP2 Blast. This is better than Spine Banks as you can wound a lot more stuff. It is still a bit pricey however and for thirty points more, one can purchase an Exocrine, which has a larger blast or six shots at double the range and when stationary, a better BS.
This is a decent option.
Transport Tyrannocyte As soon as the Tyrannocyte was announced, there was much rejoicing amongst Tyranid players. Tyrannocytes give much needed speed to Tyranids, which allows Carnifexes to move up even faster than before. Note that only one MC model can embark the Tyrannocyte upon deployment. Tyrannocytes work best when a model can immedietly do something upon deployment, such as shoot or provide Synapse so is not the best option for all Carnifexes.
For single Carnifexes with Ranged Weapons, this is a good option.
For single Carnifexes with Melee only weapons, this is a decent option.
For Carnifexes with long range weapons (HVC or SC) or broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers with Brainleech Worms - can be taken alone to fit in a Tyrannocyte or in multiples for more firepower, this type of Carnifex, known as the 'Dakkafex' spits out a large number of shots which shave wounds off units. Adrenal Glands are an optional extra to allow it to more reliable deal with vehicles or move into position.
Carnifex w/ Scything Talons, Crushing Claws - This type of Carnifex commonly has two more standard Carnifexes for ablative wounds, as they move up the battlefield looking for the highest AV vehicles and destroying them with ease. Adrenal Glands are not a necessity as the Crushing Claws variant can reliably deal with high AV vehicles and you normally have ablative wounds for your Crushing Claws Carnifex.
Carnifex w/ 2x Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands - The 'Screamer-Killer' is a basic Carnifex. It can either be taken in multiples for more Wounds to chew through, or as a single unit
Stone Crusher Carnifexes From Forge World, Stone Crusher Carnifexes are even stronger than regular Carnifexes, boasting S10 on their base statline. This becomes even better when you consider the fact they also have Living Battery Ram, as well as their own special rules, Wrecker, Sunder and Carapace Chitin-rams. This gives all Hammer of Wrath attacks Armourbane and Monster Hunter, meaning they can put wounds on MC and vehicles alike. Wrecker and Sunder is what really sets them apart from Carnifexes, they are allowed to re-roll all failed Armour Penetration rolls, as well as add one to the result if against immobile structures and fortifications (on top of the +2 granted by the Wrecker Claws AP1 value) when using their Wrecker Claws. Although the Stone Wrecker Carnifex has less attacks than the Carnifex (two compared to three) any attack that goes through is more than likely going to cause an Explodes! result. As a trade off for their close combat power, they have no access to Monstrous Biocannons.
While having an identical profile to the Carnifex (Trading an attack for Strength 10 aside), they are more durable then Carnifexes, due to their Reinforced Caraspace special rule, which makes any shooting attacks resolved against a Stone Crusher Carnifex reduce their Strength by one. Essentially, this means the Stone Crusher Carnifex is T7 against shooting attacks (note this does not apply to close combat attacks).
Stone Crusher Carnifexes upgrades Additional Stone Crusher Carnifexes - like regular Carnifexes, additional Carnifexes may be taken for Wound allocation purposes. Considering that they are Toughness 7 against shooting attacks, this will prolong the life of Stone Crusher Carnifexes considerably. As mentioned in the Tyrannocyte entry for Carnifexes, models that can do something upon Deep Strike arrival are good. Stone Crusher Carnifexes have the durability to run up the field and bear the brunt of most weapons, especially with Shrouded support. Note that broads of two or more Stone Crusher Carnifexes are vulnerable to the worst result on the Instinctive Behaviour: Feed table.
For lists that do make use of Tyrannocytes, this is decent option.
For lists that do not use Tyrannocytes, or do not want Stone Wrecker Carnifexes using a Tyrannocyte, this is a good option.
Spine Banks - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bio-Plasma -Generally not worth it since a Stone Wrecker Carnifex does not want to be targetting Infantry.
This is a bad option.
Thresher Scythe - Like regular Carnifexes, this does not help them destroy vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Bone Mace - Unlike regular Carnifexes, Stone Wrecker Carnifexes do not require help destroying vehicles.
This is a bad option.
Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail replaces their ability to re-roll amour penetration on their regular attacks with the ability to cause Instant Death and gain a new rule, Sweep Attack. Sweep Attack allows a model to replace all their attacks with a number of attacks equal to the number of enemy models in base contact with them. This allows a Stone Crusher Carnifex with a Wrecker Claw and Bio-Flail to generate more attacks and stops it being tarpitted as easily, while the trade off is that they may find it harder to destroy vehicles.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of two or three models, this is a good option.
For Stone Crusher Carnifex broods consisting of one model, this is a decent option.
Transport Much like a regular Carnifex, a single Stone Crusher Carnifex can embark on a Tyrannocyte. However, a Stone Wrecker Carnifex has more durability than a regular Carnifex and can forgo a Transport in favour of running up. Note however, that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex can not usse Adrenal Glands at all, so it is still quite slow in that regard, meaning the Tyrannocyte can provide the speed that a Stone Wrecker Carnifex needs in order to do damage.
For single Stone Wrecker Carnifexes, this is a good option.
For Stone Wrecker Carnifex broods of two or more models, this is a bad option.
Standard Competitive Builds Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claws - A standard Stone Wrecker Carnifex does a fine job of destroying vehicles without any upgrades.
Stone Wrecker Carnifex w/ Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail - A Stone Wrecker Carnifex with Wrecker Claw and Bio-flail should only be taken in groups of two or more, as it prevents a heavily points invested unit being tarpitted easily.
Conclusion and Overall Rating
Carnifex Overall rating = A-
The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids. The Carnifex can be kitted out for different roles, making it a multi-purpose unit, which is useful in the case that you may not always be playing against vehicles. The Carnifex just falls short of being an all-star by a reliance on Synapse to function well, as well as requiring support from other Tyranids to provide it with a cover save, or to simply draw fire away from it as it is fragile in comparison to other TMCs.
Stone Crusher Carnifex Overall Rating = B
While the Stone Crusher Carnifex is the best answer Tyranids have to heavy vehicle duties, it's role is very linear and does not allow much adaptability. It also suffers from requiring Synapse to be effective and even with pseudo Toughness 7, is still quite vulnerable to volume of fire with only four wounds.
Alright. I will go ahead and add in a bit more for them and see if I can't get it done in a better light. Jim, it looks like your going to have to update the first post to take these changes into account. Sorry.
Tyranid Prime:
The Tyranid Prime is the cheap mans HQ. It is not a Tyrant. It will not wade into a horde of soldiers and kill anything with impunity. It will not easily kill any major special characters and most generics that have been kitted out. The Tyranid Prime is not there to lead the horde from the front, but to support it.
1. It is the only Independent Character left in the codex.
2. It is one of the few to have the option to buy assault grenades.
3. It is moderately versatile.
4. Its cheap.
Lets be frank.You took this because its cheap. You didn't take it for durability because it has very little in that regard. A single lucky S10 hit is going to take him out. So, keep that in mind as you kit it because your looking at the only Tyranid HQ with a permanent kick me sign on it's much-more-expensive-this-edition back. If you are taking this, you had better be going for overkill in your other slots because you will need to pick up the slack.
To go into the basic options, you are looking at a Tyranid Warrior with boosted stat line but with some catches. The Tyranid Prime can only bring its stat line to real benefit inside a unit of Warriors who also benefit from several boosted stats. So, to put it bluntly, your paying the price of a Flyrant and then some for 12 wounds at majority toughness 4 with Look out Sir to keep your HQ alive. This will only make it a much larger target and fair easier to kill. So, why bother? Simple, Bio-artefacts. The Tyranid Prime can pick up the Miasma Cannon which with its stateline, is a fairly good option to get some shots in, and it can function in tandem with a small unit of warriors armed with a barbed strangler to ensure some good output. Beyond that, if you are feeling bold, the Norn Crown is an expensive but useful option to put on this thing. Just make sure to not go overboard on options, because this thing will have quite a bit gunning for it. For close combat, a light approach of Maw Claws of Thyrax, Flesh Hooks, and a Lashwhip and Bonesword will carry it through most conflicts fairly comfortably at 160 points with some good benefits if it goes hunting characters.
For transportation purposes, it can use a Trygon tunnel or a pod at a cost. The best option is to take a pod with a small retinue of 3-4 warriors and use them like a tactical squad of terminators. Upon landing, use the boosted ballistic skill to fire into whatever your target it, and prepare for assault in the next turn. The pod can also make up for the lack of bodies because it also has multiple devourers to help weaken the enemy unit. If you upgraded your retinue's melee weapons to rending claws, you can get a bit more mileage out of them and hopefully wipe out a unit in the following turn. Another option in the pod in a group of 17 toxigaunts which their Prime babysitter. A LW/BS and Scything Talon combination will cause large amounts of concern to high toughness multi-wound models. The Prime is given plenty of ablative wounds and the toxigaunts are ensured to make it into assault without risking a fall back or mauling each other, which helps ensure that whatever this unit is dedicated to taking down is tarpitted and killed.
Grades: A (Miasma Prime), B+ (Pod Prime), C (Vanilla)
Pyrovore:
The Pyrovore has long been infamous as quite possibly the worst unit in the codex and the game at large. Happily, that is no longer the case, and it serves as a fairly loose middle road.
1. It has reliable firepower for clearing objectives and hordes.
2. It benefits from the Promethium relay, which can support it in either a defensive or offensive capacity.
The major weakness of the Pyrovore lies in its mobility. Unfortunately, the Pyrovore just happens to be an incredibly slow moving platform with very little in the way for options to get around faster. However, once kitted out with some transportation, they can actually become far more effective. Each of them is armed with a heavy flamer, so going after hordes is generally the most commonly accepted method of use, however they can also get a good bit of mileage out of going after dedicated assault units. Setting a nice juicy unit of Terminators on fire is going to make back a fair portion of its points back, and then the terminators are going to have to consider the following. Do I assault 3 flamers and take 3d3 automatic overwatch hits, or ignore them and get flamed every turn?
The only reliable transport options for Pyrovores are to take Trygon tunnels or hitching a ride inside a pod. Now, taking a pod is cheaper than the Trygon and waiting subsequent turns and gives it more time on the field to earn back points. It also seems to be the much better tactic in that you can hug it and force your opponent into a multi-assault. Eating a nest of devourers plus a group of 3 flamers in overwatch is going to be a bit much for most standard units that these things will be pitted against and it should allow you to either kill or tarpit the unit for several turns. Promethium Relays will give your Pyrovores some range, but these fortifications are stationary and as long as your opponent avoids it, there is very little your Pyrovores can do to help make back points. This would only be recommended in a defensive scenario. When dealing with enemies in entrenched cover, Pyrovores are one of the most cost effective ways to force them out. Things get even better when dealing with a rush of light vehicles that are open topped, capable of damaging the vehicles and dealing d6 wounds to the unit inside. But the best part of all is that the Pyrovore itself is an Elite choice rather than Heavy Support. As it currently stands, the HQ, FA, and HS organizational chart areas are currently among the top areas of interest to Tyranid Players, which means that you won't have to think too hard about devoting a slot to this pyrotechnics display.
That is a letdown. Skytryrant Looks interesting. Hypertoxic node is bad, Neural Node is trash, Sporefield is Skytide looks ho-hum.
I was hoping for 2-3 good formations. Unfortunately there appears to be only one that is worthwhile.
Uh Hypertoxic Node is looking to be quite the hidden gem here. Not only does it add several useful units outside the normal FOC, but they get some decent buffs too.
Remember that Hypertoxic rule will affect all melee attacks for the formation, toxic miasma and the miasma cannon. That's a lot of instant death. I'd be running the toxicrene in a pod, the venoms singly throughout the army and a Flyrant with miasma and thorax weapons for lots of template fun. It's a good way to get past heavy use of cover saves and FNP.
Haha, anyhow Thanks for shareing man! It's appreciated!
In regards to the 3 HQ's- I think I might be more excited of the prospect of running deathleaper as my warlord to keep him alive than I am a third Flyrant.
I mean, is a third Flyrant nessesary if you are running 2 already?
Here's an idea that might be fun. Run 3 flyrants and the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood! I bet that would make for a decent army.
luke1705 wrote: I actually can't believe that no one has said this yet - guys, in a standard BAO/2 source tournament (which most majors are) we could take FIVE FLYRANTS. FIVE. Is that the most balanced build? Probably not, and having a presence on the ground through Skyblight with "only" four Flyrants is probably better. But FIVE. Wave serpents, watch out. We can apparently spam now too
I'll definitely jump on some of those unit analyses, but I'm on my phone right now. Just had to say that haha
Ouch.
Personally, I wouldn't take more than 4 at 1850. Flyrants need support even though they are the most flexible unit in the game. Just like I wouldn't overdo it with riptides in a Tau army. No matter how good a unit is, it needs support and "role-players" in the army to do the task that the flyrant won't do well (like landing on a objective just to hold it). You need other units in the army to do do the "grunt" or "dirty" work while the flyrants mainly go on the offensive.
I'm getting these off a Tyranid facebook group, someone got it early and was kind enough to post pictures for us all to see
I guess I could do a full 360 degree rotation, I'd be bound to point at them at some point
Annnnd stop.
No not me!!
Haha, anyhow Thanks for shareing man! It's appreciated!
In regards to the 3 HQ's- I think I might be more excited of the prospect of running deathleaper as my warlord to keep him alive than I am a third Flyrant.
I mean, is a third Flyrant nessesary if you are running 2 already?
No, I think 2 is necessary, 3 is a valid option but 2 most of the time cover some very important roles sufficiently. Nothing wrong with 3 of course, but the third isn't anywhere near as mandatory as that 2nd one often is.
rollawaythestone wrote: How do you count five? Are you thinking Hive Fleet Detachment and Combined Arms Detachment?
Hivefleet, allies and formation? can you take both allies and formation using BAO format?
Nope. It's either one or the other. There is a maximum of 2 detachments only, not just for the BAO but for almost all the major tournaments here in the US.
luke1705 wrote: Tyranids have two. Am I mistaken? Does leviathan count as its own combined arms detachment? Can we not take Codex: Tyranids primary and leviathan as another source without going dual cad?
It looks completely legal to me.
I'm confirm it with Reece (the BAO/LVOTO) the next time I see him, but currently, you can take 5 flyrants in their system (and in most tournament systems as well).
Carnifex Overall rating = A-
The Carnifex can provide a lot for a Tyranid army that is not covered well within the rest of the army, such as high volumes of fire or dealing with AV13-14 and as such, are recommended in most builds of Tyranids.
This seems like the complete opposite description of why to take a Carnifex, almost every build already has two Flyrants that do exactly this and little else offensively. In fact, the only reason Carnifexes aren't autoinclude is because Flyrants (who are in pretty much every way, Carnifexes with Wings and Synapse) are a must have for Synapse and mobility, and further points spent on S6 Dakka MIGHT be a little redundant over things like AP2 blasts and cover ignoring weaponry, tarpits, heavy assault, etc, depending on your build. Carnifex is still an awesome model and maybe the most spammable unit in the dex, at the end of the day, the reason to take it is because you feel you have your bases covered well enough and he's probably the most cost efficient source of damage output in the dex. There's no way he isn't an A+ model or just an A at worst, he is at the very top tier of the power level of individual units in our dex. Flyrant may have Synapse and wings but he pays 100 pts more for it (and is also an A+ model). I usually agree with what you say Frozo, I just think you might have missed the mark a bit with this tactica.
Tyran wrote: Can you buy Fighter Ace for a Harridan?
No, the Harridan is a Flying Gargantuan Creature, not a FMC.
@SHUPPET, I marked it as a A- as it does have some drawbacks that I mentioned, like needing Synapse to function (or else it may not make use of it's ranged weapons for a turn) and it is the least durable TMC (Maleceptor, what Maleceptor) that Nids have. Even with these drawbacks, it's still a fantastic unit and one of the top HS options.
That said, people have commented on my post and I do intend to edit it when I have a more time on my hands.
I think the difference between an A and an A- is like splitting hairs. Both are already very good. Also, there will be some subjectivity in these reviews, as different people have different experiences with certain units. That is why I included both Spoletta's and tag8833's views on the hormagant into the tactica, as they both offered somewhat contrasting viewpoints. But I don't see enough of a difference here between the 2 different views on the carnifex to warrant a change.
However, people are free to write up their own complete review of a unit and I will include it into the main tactica as a contrasting counterpoint/comparison. Also, the author is free to change his mind on his review and to edit it due to "persuasions" from other members of the community.
@Frozocone
BTW, the Harridan can benefit from the Fighter Ace. A GFMC is also a FMC and uses all of the FMC rules, with additional rules granted by the Gargantuan MC rule.
SHUPPET wrote: Could you take the Hive Fleet detachment twice and bring 6?
No. None of the tournaments allow you to take the same Detachment or same Formation twice. That is why no Dual-CAD, but you can take Single-CAD + Hive Fleet detachment to run 5 flyrants.
Iechine wrote: A little over two years ago my wife and I started playing Warhammer. Tyranids were a motley crew, with 2 Tyrants and tervigons abound recommended. Your best bet was Trygons in the heavy support.
Now...theres a gajillion bizarre ass rules to make a list. It makes me feel like a new player all over again, Warhammer has gotten ridiculous.
It's ironic. The more "choices" you are given, the harder it becomes to make up one's mind. That's essentially what's happening with us Tyranid players. All of a sudden, instead of just a very few competitive choices, we have a lot more diversity for what we can run competitively and it's getting confusing, or as some may call it, ridiculous.
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Tag,
I think you may be one of the people who plays maelstrom more than most others on this forum. Maybe your contribution could be amending or giving an addendum to some units based on the differences in their usefulness in Maelstrom. I'll be honest - the closest I usually get to Maelstrom is still modified maelstrom of some sort (BAO secondaries, etc) and that is just not the same thing.
Frozocone,
I haven't read the fighter ace rules in detail, but gargantuan creatures are a subset of monstrous creatures. Can't be a gargantuan creature and not a monstrous creature. You can argue semantics that gargantuan creatures are a more specific subset of monstrous creatures, which are not given permission to be fighter aces. However, if being a monstrous creature is the only pre-requisite, then by RAW they're in. That being said, I think they actually benefit from it less than our other bugs. You're just not going to kill a harridan. 1-2 are useless, literally. And it really doesn't need another wound, or the ability to out-maneuver enemy fighters. MAYBE if you could pick the upgrade (thereby guaranteeing 5-6) for a harridan it would be nice, but as as? Nah
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
Now this is only my opinion, but one of my personal criterias for an A+ rating is this - is the unit basically an auto-include in the army? The carnifex, while very good (easily an A or A-), unfortunately suffers from being in an over-crowded slot. Basically, if the carnifex was A+ material, then I don't really even need to consider the other units in that slot. However, the carnifex has to compete against the likes of the mawloc, biovores, exocrines and t-fexes (well, mainly the mawloc). When I pick my Heavies, I need to seriously consider which unit I should take, the dakkafex or the mawloc?
Hormagaunts are usually seen as an alternative to the deep striking rippers as mandatory troops. Depending on your list composition of heavy hitters you may want those guys in.
Alternatively you can go out all out on Hgaunts and TGants and play an horde style list.
Following here is a list of things you want to consider when talking about Hgaunts:
1. Hormagaunts may look like a cheap troop, but they actually are not. Remember that nids have Tgants, rippers and Mucolids for a cheaper troop choice. Take these guys only if you have a real reason, if not then there are better mandatory troops.
2. Hormagaunts are fast. Not as fast as beasts or jump infantry, but for their cost they are indeed fast between fleet and leap. They will get into assault range by turn 2 many times.
3. Do not expect vanilla hormagaunts to provide damage, that is not their role. They will make a mess out of certain units, but that will not happen commonly.
With that said why would you take Hgaunts, what is their intended role? Well at this point it is necessary to distinguish between vanilla hormagaunts and upgraded hormagaunts.
Vanillla hormagaunts are the most commonly used and are great for screening, tarpitting, objective grabbing and assault linking.
1) Screening: Since the rule clarification that you don't need to be 25% covered by a model to get the cover save but a toe in a ripper will suffice, these guys became an interesting alternative to the more commonly used screeners. While they cost 25% more than Tgants, they will never risk to slow down your dakkafex/exocrine/whatever. At the same time they cost 16% less than gargoyles (and are obj sec). Remember to bring a shroud source with you when doing this, or the hormagaunts will be an even better target than a dakkafex for the bolters on a point per average wound basis.
2) Tarpitting: When tarpitting with nids it is either gargoiles or hormagaunts. Luckily both of them are really good at this. Gargoiles are better due to the jump infantry type and the blinding venom even if they cost more. If you want pure tarpitting go for them. Take hormagaunts if you also need them for their other roles.
3) Objective grabbing: Here the best are the deepstriking rippers. Cheaper, easier to hide and deepstriking. Hormagaunts are close second though, with the highest speed between our obj sec troops and an high model count for conga lining.
4) Assault linking: This is where Hgaunts are the best. Assault a model with a slaughter unit (Dimacherion, Carnifex, Toxicrene etc..) and at the same time multi assault that model and another unit with a unit of hormagaunts. You will get 2 benefits: first your hormagaunts will eat up the overwatch and secondly when that inital assaulted model gets slaughtered you force an harsh leadership check on the second unit while in meele with an high initiative unit. Remember that glancing and penetrating hits count for resolution and tanks are indeed the best initial targets for this maneuver. Hgaunts have fleet and high initiative for a low cost, which makes them better at this than Tgants and Gargoiles.
As you see they are not the best at anything but they are a good second choice for all of those roles, with the point 4 being an exception but it is an uncommon occurance (but can win games, keep an eye out for it). So if you need just mandatory troops or strongly need one role in particular skip Hgaunts. If you need an all round troop choice than can be spent in any of those roles then consider Hgaunts.
Upgraded Hormagaunts are almost never seen and there is a reson. They cost! For a 1W T3 6+ model they can get to ridiculous costs. That said:
a) If you need anti rear AV 10 and can't honestly get anything better then AG Hgaunts can be an option. They are fairly good at it, but will bleed points like mad when targeted.
b) If you expect to face high T targets like WKnights or Nurgle babies then consider Venom Hgaunts. If you can get them on their favorite target then they can get to tear jerking efficiency, if not they will again be point bleeders at the smallest sign of enemy fire.
c) Do not consider AG + Venom Gaunts. Never.
Grades: C (Vanilla Hormagaunts), D (Single upgrade Hgaunts) E (Double Upgrade Hormagaunts)
I think you are wrong in several important ways, but instead of arguing, let me offer an alternative take.
A View from the Maelstrom of war: Hormagaunt: Tyranid's lack quality troops available to other armies. However, one often overlooked gem is the min squad of vanilla hormagants also known as a Maelstrom Winner.
1) The best scorers in the codex. Their mobility enhancements allows them to move 13.5" on average. They can get to an objective anywhere on the board in 2 turns and do so reliably, and score it when they get there thanks to Objective secured. They aren't Eldar Jetbike good, but they are close.
2) Board Control. This may mean congalining across multiple objectives to contest them, or getting in the way of an imperial knight, or other deathstar. They are a unit that can move past midfield on turn one, and push the opponent to the outside and edges of the board.
3) Objective Denial. Even a min squad can stretch across multiple objectives to deny them.
4) MC Protection. Hormagaunts are a good screening unit because they move faster than anything they can screen. They are also an assault denial unit. By placing themselves between an MC and a unit that would like to assault it they can prevent assaults and frustrate opponents allowing MC's to continue putting out damage.
5) The Anvil. While Hormagaunts are the best scorers available to Tyranids, they also have the ability to neutralize enemy shooting. Even a min squad can hold up most shooty units for a turn until something killy can get there to deal with it. Thanks to their smaller base and profile, hormagants are even better at this than gargoyles because they usually won't deny a charge to the heavies coming behind them. Against many things, a malanthrope can offer enough hammer to deal with the shooty unit.
6) Deployment Aid. Why do Tyranids fear drop pods? Because they don't have enough hormagants and gargoyles. By spacing them out around your MC's you can deny drop pods the position that they would like to alpha strike.
7) Cover Saves. When there is no terrain to hide in, Hormagants can become mobile terrain. Thanks to their low cost, and low threat profile, they aren't likely to take fire.
8) Assault linking. If you have a model capable of chalking up wounds, you can send that model into some kroot, and the hormagants can multi-assault a riptide and the kroot allowing you to quickly eliminate potential threats.
9) MSU. Unlike Termagants, Hormagants can quickly spread out across the board giving your opponents a rough time tracking them down.
10) Drawing Fire. In many situations Hormagants can be used to successfully draw fire away from MC's. If they contest an important objective, or just get in the way, suddenly shots must be wasted on them. With a Malanthrope sidekick, they are always more durable than expected, and thanks to the decent squad sizes they can congaline into terrain or out of Line of Sight.
Other ways to run hormagants.
1) Wraith Knight's nightmare: 20 hormagants with Toxin sacs strike fear into the hearts of many MC's and elite infantry.
2) Transport Killer: 15 hormagaunts with Adrenal Glands can deal with most transports in the game, and also are better equipped to kill MEQ than Poison gants. On average it will take 9 AG Gants to kill a 3 hullpoint vehicle with back armor 10.
3) The Tarpit: 20+ Hormagants with no upgrades can tarpit walkers easily. A good Solution to kill Elite infantry.
4) Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard. 17 hormagants w/ a Tyranid prime in a Tyrannocyte. They can give the prime fleet, ablative wounds, and extra attacks to deal with 2+ armor.
Grades: A (Maelstrom Winner). B (Wraith Knight's Nightmare). B- (Transport Killer). B (The Tarpit), C (Tyranid Prime's Bodyguard)
Good points! A little more emphatic then I usualy am, but well reasoned
Also (not contesting just asking) what is the Psychic Support added by Warriors? SitW? I know its probably super obvious just wondering what I'm missing for it to be labelled as a dotpoint
I think what he meant to say was Synapse Support. I'll go back and modify his review to reflect that. As we all all know, Tyranid Warriors aren't psychic.
That is a letdown. Skytryrant Looks interesting. Hypertoxic node is bad, Neural Node is trash, Sporefield is Skytide looks ho-hum.
I was hoping for 2-3 good formations. Unfortunately there appears to be only one that is worthwhile.
Uh Hypertoxic Node is looking to be quite the hidden gem here. Not only does it add several useful units outside the normal FOC, but they get some decent buffs too.
Remember that Hypertoxic rule will affect all melee attacks for the formation, toxic miasma and the miasma cannon. That's a lot of instant death. I'd be running the toxicrene in a pod, the venoms singly throughout the army and a Flyrant with miasma and thorax weapons for lots of template fun. It's a good way to get past heavy use of cover saves and FNP.
I agree, it can be quite good.
However, personally, I don't see myself running this formation. I don't believe in Assault nids unless it is with the dimachaeron, whose 4+ Instant Death is still better than the toxicrene's 5+ ID.
SHUPPET wrote: Pyrovores part is really well written thanks Unyielding
Personally, I don't believe podvores are worth an 'A' grade (wouldn't give it more than a 'B' ever), but then I try not to influence the author's reviews unless I really disagree with their assessment.
Sinful Hero wrote: In case anyone was worried-this was posted in the N&R thread. It appears the Tyrannocyte doesn't use the top of the Mucolid(as a lot of us already assumed), so it'll be easy to get a Mucolid and a Tyrannocyte out of the same box. Perhaps eBay will sell the tops cheap as well.
Lord Scythican wrote: Just a quick shout out for people with Mucolid woes. I am making Tyrannocytes out of the newly released kit and using green stuff to replace the missing tentacles for the Mucolids. Stop by my WIP thread for some coverage:
On topic...I can't wait to get that new Broodlord. I have a space hulk one and another converted from my bitz box, but the new one looks pretty rad.
Thanks for the shout out Sinful Hero! I plan on updating that thread a lot. For those with Mucolid woes, just make the Tyrannocyte and green stuff the tentacles.
Frozocrone wrote: Quick note about Synapse, it depends on the unit type. For example, Mawlocs don't really care about Feed being a single model and actually benefit if they roll for Rage. Same with Exocrine and Hunt, it still gets to shoot it's big gun and can't Go to Ground, avoiding the worst result.
When I talk about Carnifexes, they have the option to buy more Carnifex or Biocannons. Their IB, Feed, directly effects their ability to shoot their weapons, meaning with a bad roll you can lose 30 points worth of shooting if you take Devourers, which is a lot of firepower. If taking more than one in a Brood, they become vulnerable to the worst IB for Feed. In my eyes, this cannot qualify for A+ status. A status, at best (but as I said, it's can be focused down quite easily only having four wounds) which formed the basis of my A- grading. It's still a versatile unit that provides a lot of good options for Tyranids so A tier was the minimum you can really put it in.
I would like the rest of the communities opinion on this, I am taking notes all around and will change it if their is a general opinion they should be rated higher than A-. Truth be told, I think it sits on the border between A and A-, but I'm a harsh critic and went for A-.
BTW, are we all in agreement for Stone Crushers?
I agree on A-, they are Awesome, but they have flaws...
So to just say, "they are great anti-AV 13/14, take these guys and your mech problems are solved" is incredibly misleading (and that is the implication when you give a unit an A+ rating and say "it's good anti-armor").
Yup. Please show me, where I have said anything even resembling this statement, during the entire duration of this thread from the first page onwards. It's not what I've ever implied.
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Frozocrone wrote: Quick note about Synapse, it depends on the unit type. For example, Mawlocs don't really care about Feed being a single model and actually benefit if they roll for Rage. Same with Exocrine and Hunt, it still gets to shoot it's big gun and can't Go to Ground, avoiding the worst result.
When I talk about Carnifexes, they have the option to buy more Carnifex or Biocannons. Their IB, Feed, directly effects their ability to shoot their weapons, meaning with a bad roll you can lose 30 points worth of shooting if you take Devourers, which is a lot of firepower. If taking more than one in a Brood, they become vulnerable to the worst IB for Feed. In my eyes, this cannot qualify for A+ status. A status, at best (but as I said, it's can be focused down quite easily only having four wounds) which formed the basis of my A- grading. It's still a versatile unit that provides a lot of good options for Tyranids so A tier was the minimum you can really put it in.
I would like the rest of the communities opinion on this, I am taking notes all around and will change it if their is a general opinion they should be rated higher than A-. Truth be told, I think it sits on the border between A and A-, but I'm a harsh critic and went for A-.
BTW, are we all in agreement for Stone Crushers?
In which case I think the Flyrant should be marked down as well, because it's only so good on the fact that it has Synapse, which might just end up being ineffecient points at times, at least enough to take the unit down to an A-.
This is a silly way to look at units, and most circumstances its an excellent thing that Carnifex is not paying the prices that Tyrants do for their Synapse, just as most circumstances make Flyrant an excellent Synapse carrier. this and should not be looked at as a negative to either unit.
Moderate nit-pick, but Flyrants don't just pay for Synapse, and Wings...they also are ML 2 Psychers...
Your tentacles on the mucolids are really well done.
Thank you very much! I have tried to detail what I have done to get a Mucolid out of the kit if you build a Tyrannocyte. We all have a chance to get what we want out of this kit, so if any of my tips help then I am pleased!
Moderate nit-pick, but Flyrants don't just pay for Synapse, and Wings...they also are ML 2 Psychers...
I'm aware of that, but that really doesn't stand to do a huge amount at all consistently, and hardly more relevant that Carnifexes being brilliant tank destroyers in CC which I also didn't include
Personally, I don't believe podvores are worth an 'A' grade (wouldn't give it more than a 'B' ever), but then I try not to influence the author's reviews unless I really disagree with their assessment.
That's interesting. How have they played in your experience in the past month? Wondering how exactly they let you down and what units it was against, because all the logic behind them suggests they are about an A- to A, just a very good unit.
Shuppet, I know you're a big fan of the fexes and you should be. It's one of our best units. However, it is not without its limitations (mobility, many benefits only available in cc, durability on a points per wound basis). To put it on the same level as the flying hive tyrant, one of the best units in the entire game perhaps in terms of tactical flexibility, is unfair to the Flyrant. If you want the Carnifex to be an A, the Flyrant has to be an A+ at least. I fully support the A - endorsement, but A is not unreasonable either. In any case, it's good that we're having these discussions. No man is an island and once you filter out the net-think, the wisdom of the collective is assuredly greater than the wisdom of any singular entity.
Well, I said the Flyrant is an A+. It's pretty much a must have, which the Carnifex is not. But there comes a point when paying extra for more Synapse is redundant, and the mobility shooting role is already covered, and this is the point where it's better to include Carnifexes in a lot of builds. However "many benefits only in CC" isn't a negative to a model who is worth it's points in shooting, it's actually a benefit that it serves a big role if it can make it to CC.
You don't have to be auto-include to sit at the same level of overall power. Flyrants are in the completely uncontested, and also mandatory HQ slot, so they take precedence first picked, Carnifexes are just as solid follow up picks unfortunately they fight for a more contested slot, and points / role at this stage as you already have their Dakka with Flyrants. They are no weaker than any A+ model however, and reap special benefits from a lot of the Synergy in our army far more than other units.
To make it even easier, Exocrines, Biovores, Mawlocs, all kind of undeniable A (MAYBE A- for the Mawloc), and Carnifex sits slightly above these guys. A+.
Now this is only my opinion, but one of my personal criterias for an A+ rating is this - is the unit basically an auto-include in the army? The carnifex, while very good (easily an A or A-), unfortunately suffers from being in an over-crowded slot. Basically, if the carnifex was A+ material, then I don't really even need to consider the other units in that slot. However, the carnifex has to compete against the likes of the mawloc, biovores, exocrines and t-fexes (well, mainly the mawloc). When I pick my Heavies, I need to seriously consider which unit I should take, the dakkafex or the mawloc?
Just something to think about.
Very true, and this is the one argument that could take Carnifex down from A+ to just an A imo. But the thing is, Carnifex IS better than all those units in the Heavy support slot, who are a bit more niche in their role and can be excluded once you have enough - e.g. there is little point to taking 3 Exocrines over turning at least one or two of those squads into Dakkafex.
The real question, what do I lose by taking a Flyrant? The answer is well, basically nothing, not much is really contesting very strongly for that position, and what do I lose by taking a Carnifex, and SOMETIMES that answer can be maybe the option of something important in that slot, as it can be much more contested if you don't have Biovore or Exocrine coverage. However LAN helps out with that amazingly though, but even without LAN I just don't think the opportunity cost associated with putting a Dakkafex in that HS slot is really enough to bring him down from A+, he's the best unit in that slot. I'll liken it to saying Flyrants are a hard pick because HQ slot has really important models - they ARE the important models. HS is a bit contested but the Dakkafex still comes out slightly above every other option, and some of the other options being A grade perfect tier models just pushes Carnifex into A+ tier. I won't argue any A tier branding of him however, there is a bit of subjectivity attached to all this discussion, but not far enough to give him A- that is just too harsh as he outweighs everything in his slot and practically everything in the army in terms of power level.
Ok, this is just a brief overview and my opinion of the new Tyranid Shield of Baal formations.
Hypertoxic Node:B
Any formation that allows you take an extra flyrant is always a good thing. And the fact that all those units in the formation can cause Instant Death makes it a formation to be feared in combat. Against the right opponents, this build can be devastatingly good.
However, Assault nids are not the best Tyranid builds currently. There are many armies who just don't care about assault nids - mech, MSU armies, armies with no or very few multi-wound units, flyer armies, very shooty armies, the list goes on.
Neural Node:D
While the formation does help out the maleceptor and zoans somewhat, where are you going to get all those psychic dice to cast all of those powers? This build will never run at peak efficiency due to the inherent problems with the maleceptor unit itself. There just isn't enough warp dice in the army for it. A turd is a turd, no matter how hard you try to polish it.
Skytyrant Swarm:C
This formation is great if you want to run a cc-tyrant. However, there are problems with it:
1. You are losing mobility advantage of the flyrant.
2. It forces you to run Assault bugs, which isn't the best Tyranid build to run competitively.
3. If the opponent issues a challenge, then the flyrant can't Look-Out-Sir the wounds away.
4. It's worth 3 VP's if you wipe out the unit.
Sporefield:B
It's somewhat hard to read the entry, but I think I actually like this formation. Re-spawning spores on a 4+? Yes, please! Too bad they don't score or deny. I just like how much of an annoyance they can be to the opposition.
Skyblight Swarm:B+
Been there, done it. A solid formation, even with some of its units nerfed in this edition.
Skytide:N/A
Much to expensive to be considered for normal games. Plus, I can't read its rules.
Hive Fleet Detachment:A
This will be the detachment that almost every Tyranid player will be using from now on. It has just become the gold standard for competitive Tyranids. 3 flyrants with the ability to add more through allies and other formations? It is a Tyranid player's wet dream come true. The 3 troops is a non-issue thanks to Mucolids. And while you lose ObSec, Adaptive Instincts is actually pretty decent. If you really want ObSec, then you can always run a Primary CAD or Skyblight to go with this detachment.
Personally, I don't believe podvores are worth an 'A' grade (wouldn't give it more than a 'B' ever), but then I try not to influence the author's reviews unless I really disagree with their assessment.
That's interesting. How have they played in your experience in the past month? Wondering how exactly they let you down and what units it was against, because all the logic behind them suggests they are about an A- to A, just a very good unit.
Ah....I knew your curious mind would challenge me on this.
To me, an 'A' unit is a unit that can and will consistently contribute to the Tyranid cause. While pyrovores in pods (podvores) can be very good for its role of anti-infantry, oftentimes it just won't contribute much. Why?
1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).
2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.
3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.
4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out
Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they fall flat on the face. That is why I will not give them an 'A'. This is how I would rank them:
Now this is only my opinion, but one of my personal criterias for an A+ rating is this - is the unit basically an auto-include in the army? The carnifex, while very good (easily an A or A-), unfortunately suffers from being in an over-crowded slot. Basically, if the carnifex was A+ material, then I don't really even need to consider the other units in that slot. However, the carnifex has to compete against the likes of the mawloc, biovores, exocrines and t-fexes (well, mainly the mawloc). When I pick my Heavies, I need to seriously consider which unit I should take, the dakkafex or the mawloc?
Just something to think about.
Very true, and this is the one argument that could take Carnifex down from A+ to just an A imo. But the thing is, Carnifex IS better than all those units in the Heavy support slot, who are a bit more niche in their role and can be excluded once you have enough - e.g. there is little point to taking 3 Exocrines over turning at least one or two of those squads into Dakkafex.
The real question, what do I lose by taking a Flyrant? The answer is well, basically nothing, not much is really contesting very strongly for that position, and what do I lose by taking a Carnifex, and SOMETIMES that answer can be maybe the option of something important in that slot, as it can be much more contested if you don't have Biovore or Exocrine coverage. However LAN helps out with that amazingly though, but even without LAN I just don't think the opportunity cost associated with putting a Dakkafex in that HS slot is really enough to bring him down from A+, he's the best unit in that slot. I'll liken it to saying Flyrants are a hard pick because HQ slot has really important models - they ARE the important models. HS is a bit contested but the Dakkafex still comes out slightly above every other option, and some of the other options being A grade perfect tier models just pushes Carnifex into A+ tier. I won't argue any A tier branding of him however, it''s all subjective, but A- is too harsh as he outweighs everything in his slot and practically everything in the army in terms of power level.
Here's the difference. Almost everyone runs dual flyrants competitively. However, not everyone runs dakkafexes competitively. When it comes to the Heavy slots, you see a wide range of units, from dakkafexes to mawlocs to t-fexes to LAN biovores and exocrines to no Heavy Support at all (because of formations)!
Yes, the carnifex is more well-rounded than most of the other units it competes against. However, it isn't so much head-&-shoulders above them all that you see it in every list as you do the flyrant. And that's what an 'A+' unit is to me, something you see on almost every Tyranid player's list. BTW, with the exception of the carnifex and the mawloc, I wouldn't give any of the other Heavy supports anything more than a 'B+' rating, though I would rate the biovore somewhere between 'A-/B+'.
I've got a bunch of questions.
#1. On turn 2, you shot 5 lictors at 2 venoms and killed them both. So a Lictor shoots Flesh hooks at BS3. That means on average 1 hits. Flesh Hooks are strength 6. So 1/2 of all hits wound. Therefore, 5 lictors should cause 2 Venoms to make 2.5 Jinks most of the times. They would be lucky to kill 1 Venom. This is the same turn a Mawloc Exploded a ravager. Did you just roll lights out that turn?
#2. On turn 4, 2 units of spore mines assault some grotesques, and center the blast over the Succubus, I assume you mean over a spore mine that made base with the Succubus. Did he have the succubus out front so that you could make base with both groups of mines?
#3. Did you know Grotesques were Leadership 4? I have used psychic scream on them to very good effect in the past. Was that part of your strategy, or did you just get lucky?
#4. How did you warlord tank so many saves in combat with the Grotesques. Hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's with 4 attacks each, they should have been forcing quite a few saves, right?
From what I could gather, the Sporefield Formation has 4+ return like Skyblight Gargoyles as well as Infiltrate.
Skytide looks like you get to re-roll your reserves for any of the formations that it posseses (Skyblight, Sporefield etc) so long as the SkyTyrant Hive Tyrant is alive.
I also thought podvores were a curious choice for an A rating. Looking at something like the Hive Crone, which brings more durability, more mobility for cheaper, and more utility, we still probably wouldn't grade that an A. A B, maybe a B+, but I don't see the pros of the pyrovores being better than a hive crone.
Also, I looked over the force org for the Leviathan detachment again. I'm sticking to my guns but it looks legit. In the brb, a combined arms detachment has objective secured as a command benefit. Since leviathan sacrifices this, it is not considered a combined arms detachment. So it's no different than using say, a grey Knights strike force. I think 4 plus Skyblight is crazy though. Love it
This formation is great if you want to run a cc-tyrant. However, there are problems with it:
1. You are losing mobility advantage of the flyrant.
2. It forces you to run Assault bugs, which isn't the best Tyranid build to run competitively.
3. If the opponent issues a challenge, then the flyrant can't Look-Out-Sir the wounds away.
4. It's worth 3 VP's if you wipe out the unit.
Wow. Really? Jink Confers. With 20+ Gargoyles you can conga line back to a Malanthrope, and jink for a 2+ cover save. There isn't much that can challenge out a Melee Flyrant and expect to survive, and with 20+ gargoyles, you should be able to arrange a charge to make sure your flyrant isn't in base combat to get challenged out in the first round if you happen to face a GUO with warp speed.
It is a neigh unkillable assault monster unit. If you like the Dimacharon, you should be over the moon on this guy.
Skytyrant seems a nice way to deliver a CC Tyrant into combat. ... Still, Dima in a pod is probably superior.
Also Luke may have a point, can we use a Leviathan detachment and a normal CAD detachment at the same time? Although that combination probably is going to be banned in tournaments.
This formation is great if you want to run a cc-tyrant. However, there are problems with it:
1. You are losing mobility advantage of the flyrant.
2. It forces you to run Assault bugs, which isn't the best Tyranid build to run competitively.
3. If the opponent issues a challenge, then the flyrant can't Look-Out-Sir the wounds away.
4. It's worth 3 VP's if you wipe out the unit.
Wow. Really? Jink Confers. With 20+ Gargoyles you can conga line back to a Malanthrope, and jink for a 2+ cover save. There isn't much that can challenge out a Melee Flyrant and expect to survive, and with 20+ gargoyles, you should be able to arrange a charge to make sure your flyrant isn't in base combat to get challenged out in the first round if you happen to face a GUO with warp speed.
It is a neigh unkillable assault monster unit. If you like the Dimacharon, you should be over the moon on this guy.
Only the flyrant has the jink rule for the 2+ cover. Gargoyles will only get normal cover if the flyrant LOS to them. I'm pretty sure jink doesn't confer, though Stealth and Shroud does. Rather, it is directional fire - put the flyrant in front for the 2+ cover to tank the shots.
BTW, the unit can be tied up in combat by another tarpit unit.
Tyran wrote: Skytyrant seems a nice way to deliver a CC Tyrant into combat.
... Still, Dima in a pod is probably superior.
Also Luke may have a point, can we use a Leviathan detachment and a normal CAD detachment at the same time? Although that combination probably is going to be banned in tournaments.
Of course it will. GTs seem to always ban GW legal lists that favor tyranids.
Tyran wrote: Skytyrant seems a nice way to deliver a CC Tyrant into combat.
... Still, Dima in a pod is probably superior.
Also Luke may have a point, can we use a Leviathan detachment and a normal CAD detachment at the same time? Although that combination probably is going to be banned in tournaments.
It is legal currently, though whether it will be allowed or not in tournament play is another question.
The Tyranid Shrike is the faster brother to the Tyranid Warrior. While not as well armored, it more than makes up for this by being far more dangerous.
1. Highly mobile.
2. Has access to assault grenades
3. Psychic support for the army.
The Tyranid Shrike is the Fast Attack sibling to its more ground oriented brethren. The shrike has the exact same options as the Tyranid Warrior, but trades armor for incredible mobility. Boasting almost the same statline as warriors, Tyranid Shrikes are anything but. Their status as jump infantry allows them to quickly close the cap with most enemies. As it stands with their movement speed, you want to avoid putting bio-cannons on them. Bio-cannons allow for more relaxed and static gun play which completely negates the advantages of the unit. So there are really only 2 options for them as either shooters or close combat units. Shrikes can easily be a very cheap and effective shooting unit as they don't need much to keep them going. Much like warriors, you want to keep them in small units of between 3-5 to minimize damage. However, from there you can choose to allow them to deploy on the board in cover or go for a daring deepstrike in the following turns due to their winged nature. If your playing against a MSU opponent, nothing is going to make him drop that faster than the idea of his small, vulnerable squads being picked off by deepstriking multiwound infantry. After an opening salvo, you should have relatively little trouble in mopping up stragglers in assaults.
The other option available to the Tyranid Shrike is close combat, which is where they can truly come into their own. To take the idea to hand, outfit one of them with a LW/BS, 2 more with the standard rending claws, and keep the remaining 2 stock to conserve points. At this point, your going to have an opponent who is not going to be very happy about dealing with a unit that costs under 200 points but can handle most standard infantry. Even if you don't want to run those size broods, running 3 shrikes while one has rending claws and scything talons can lead to an impressive number of attacks on the charge against an unsuspecting unit. At worst though, is that with a bit of luck and modification of reserve rolls, a brood of shrikes can quickly become a linchpin in an assault from an unexpected quarter. A single brood of shrikes coupled with several full sized broods of gargoyles is going to be a threat few can ignore. Merely keep your shrikes in the center and fashion your gargoyle broods around them. With the number of wings around, you may just make it impossible for them to see them at best, or give them an ample cover save to ensure they stick around to direct the broods of Gargoyles.
jy2 wrote: Only the flyrant has the jink rule for the 2+ cover. Gargoyles will only get normal cover if the flyrant LOS to them. I'm pretty sure jink doesn't confer, though Stealth and Shroud does. Rather, it is directional fire - put the flyrant in front for the 2+ cover to tank the shots.
BTW, the unit can be tied up in combat by another tarpit unit.
I see you've never played Jinking TWC. Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink."
Anything that can tarpit the Skytyrant can tarpit the Dimacharon easier and for longer. A Flyrant with RoO is doing 5 attacks base with 6 on the charge at initiative 8, WS 8, Strength 7, rerolling all failures to wound, and causing ID on 6's. 15 more points gets it preferred enemy, but probably isn't worth it.
Gargoyles are Poison (6+) when using their blind attack, and so can contribute a bit as well in most cases.
Jink doesn't confer. Which is good. I mean....SO BROKEN.
Tyran,
Although any given tournament can faq something against rules as written, this would be a pretty tough sell. So many codecies have something like this where they can take their primary CAD and then something "allied" that is exactly like this. I doubt it will be horrendously OP. We give up OS to get our hands on an extra tyrant or two. Look, yeah it's definitely awesome, but I really doubt that it's game-breaking
Personally, I don't believe podvores are worth an 'A' grade (wouldn't give it more than a 'B' ever), but then I try not to influence the author's reviews unless I really disagree with their assessment.
That's interesting. How have they played in your experience in the past month? Wondering how exactly they let you down and what units it was against, because all the logic behind them suggests they are about an A- to A, just a very good unit.
Ah....I knew your curious mind would challenge me on this.
To me, an 'A' unit is a unit that can and will consistently contribute to the Tyranid cause. While pyrovores in pods (podvores) can be very good for its role of anti-infantry, oftentimes it just won't contribute much. Why?
1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).
2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.
3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.
4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out
Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they fall flat on the face. That is why I will not give them an 'A'. This is how I would rank them:
Grades: B (Podvores), C+ (Promvores), D (Vanilla)
luke1705 wrote: I also thought podvores were a curious choice for an A rating. Looking at something like the Hive Crone, which brings more durability, more mobility for cheaper, and more utility, we still probably wouldn't grade that an A. A B, maybe a B+, but I don't see the pros of the pyrovores being better than a hive crone.
Also, I looked over the force org for the Leviathan detachment again. I'm sticking to my guns but it looks legit. In the brb, a combined arms detachment has objective secured as a command benefit. Since leviathan sacrifices this, it is not considered a combined arms detachment. So it's no different than using say, a grey Knights strike force. I think 4 plus Skyblight is crazy though. Love it
Yet the Crone hits something like 1/3 the damage output, and does little else to anything not a flyer. Durability sure, but the Crone sits around Tyrannofex tier imo.
In one turn the Pyrovores have around about the damage output of a Biovore squad shooting for 2 turns or more. They are an excellent unit to quickly knock something out, really early game, especially important units in the ruin, and do it far more reliably as well. Also, Crones may have more "mobility" on the surface, but at the end of the day Pyrovores in a pod will have almost equal positioning, not having to use FMC arcs and being able to land wherever they want and deploy from there, so long as the pod land isn't too crazy. Also, they can mitigate spread far better than Biovores can by using positioning combined with templates. Every turn they spend alive and in range of something they pull further ahead of Crones and Biovores and Tyrannofexes in points investment. They also do really well in assault. This makes them perfect for an aggressive army. I think they par well with EggaFexes and other glass cannony units like Dima's.
I do agree that we could maybe take them down to a B+/ A- based on the fact that they don't fit perfectly well into every build like say Biovores do for the exact same role. However when they do fit, they can seriously outperform other armies. I think even in lists where they don't fit, they are still likely to do well.
However I disagree that they lose points based on the fact that they aren't as good vs all mech. Their coverage in TAC is still CRITICALLY important - I'd rather have one and not need it, then need one and not have it. Hell against mech they still outperform Biovores strongly, being able to drop 3 S5 hits into rear armour and threaten assault more rationally. I feel like their role is one shared with a few models in the dex, including Biovore, Tyrannofexacyte, and to some extent both Harpy and Crone. I feel like every shooty Nid army should have one of these (bit more negligable if you have multiple Mawlocs and/or a big Lictor base), it's important to stop pathfinders in the ruins for example, being worth about triple their actual point value simply because you have no cost effecient way of dealing with them. I think Biovores and Pyrovores are the best for this round, Biovores are a little more intuitive but I think Pyrovores have the potential to lap them in effectiveness and will almost always match them. Of course it does meaning taking a spore which limits the size of your army, however those things more or less pay for themself, but that is the only real tradeoff imo.
Now this is only my opinion, but one of my personal criterias for an A+ rating is this - is the unit basically an auto-include in the army? The carnifex, while very good (easily an A or A-), unfortunately suffers from being in an over-crowded slot. Basically, if the carnifex was A+ material, then I don't really even need to consider the other units in that slot. However, the carnifex has to compete against the likes of the mawloc, biovores, exocrines and t-fexes (well, mainly the mawloc). When I pick my Heavies, I need to seriously consider which unit I should take, the dakkafex or the mawloc?
Just something to think about.
Very true, and this is the one argument that could take Carnifex down from A+ to just an A imo. But the thing is, Carnifex IS better than all those units in the Heavy support slot, who are a bit more niche in their role and can be excluded once you have enough - e.g. there is little point to taking 3 Exocrines over turning at least one or two of those squads into Dakkafex.
The real question, what do I lose by taking a Flyrant? The answer is well, basically nothing, not much is really contesting very strongly for that position, and what do I lose by taking a Carnifex, and SOMETIMES that answer can be maybe the option of something important in that slot, as it can be much more contested if you don't have Biovore or Exocrine coverage. However LAN helps out with that amazingly though, but even without LAN I just don't think the opportunity cost associated with putting a Dakkafex in that HS slot is really enough to bring him down from A+, he's the best unit in that slot. I'll liken it to saying Flyrants are a hard pick because HQ slot has really important models - they ARE the important models. HS is a bit contested but the Dakkafex still comes out slightly above every other option, and some of the other options being A grade perfect tier models just pushes Carnifex into A+ tier. I won't argue any A tier branding of him however, it''s all subjective, but A- is too harsh as he outweighs everything in his slot and practically everything in the army in terms of power level.
Here's the difference. Almost everyone runs dual flyrants competitively. However, not everyone runs dakkafexes competitively. When it comes to the Heavy slots, you see a wide range of units, from dakkafexes to mawlocs to t-fexes to LAN biovores and exocrines to no Heavy Support at all (because of formations)!
Yes, the carnifex is more well-rounded than most of the other units it competes against. However, it isn't so much head-&-shoulders above them all that you see it in every list as you do the flyrant. And that's what an 'A+' unit is to me, something you see on almost every Tyranid player's list. BTW, with the exception of the carnifex and the mawloc, I wouldn't give any of the other Heavy supports anything more than a 'B+' rating, though I would rate the biovore somewhere between 'A-/B+'.
I do partially agree, however "what almost everyone does" isn't really a compelling argument at all, as it's easily possible for most players to be wrong. Up until a few weeks ago, "almost everyone" considered Lictors unplayable. Your definition for unit rankings basically turns it into a popularity contest rather than a strategy discussion, which is not a healthy approach.
However you are right, there is more competition in the slot and the Dakkafex isn't leagues above it's competitors unlike the Flyrant. But why it needs to be, to be a unit of A+ quality seems beyond me. If it was an excellent unit that contested with arguably better units I'd say so, but really every other unit is the one contesting with Dakkafex for it's slot, and you can still safely dump just as many points in Dakkafex as you can with Flyrant quite safely since you can take them in squads of up 3, and still have 2 HS slots open. Nope, this contesting in the slot isn't enough to take away Dakkafexes A+ rating in my eyes. It's just one of the very best models in the dex and the fact that it is in HS and available in squads of 3 could be just as easily looked at as an advantage, rather than being restricted to just 2 in the HQ slot (3 now I guess).
I've got a bunch of questions.
#1. On turn 2, you shot 5 lictors at 2 venoms and killed them both. So a Lictor shoots Flesh hooks at BS3. That means on average 1 hits. Flesh Hooks are strength 6. So 1/2 of all hits wound. Therefore, 5 lictors should cause 2 Venoms to make 2.5 Jinks most of the times. They would be lucky to kill 1 Venom. This is the same turn a Mawloc Exploded a ravager. Did you just roll lights out that turn?
#2. On turn 4, 2 units of spore mines assault some grotesques, and center the blast over the Succubus, I assume you mean over a spore mine that made base with the Succubus. Did he have the succubus out front so that you could make base with both groups of mines?
#3. Did you know Grotesques were Leadership 4? I have used psychic scream on them to very good effect in the past. Was that part of your strategy, or did you just get lucky?
#4. How did you warlord tank so many saves in combat with the Grotesques. Hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's with 4 attacks each, they should have been forcing quite a few saves, right?
#1 yes they rolled really hot. Though if you spread it around I shot 9 lictors at 3 venoms and did 5 total hit points. And at first they didnt jink, only started jinking after taking hull points and on 3rd venom from the start. So if you spread it to that its 18 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 results, if like i said the first results werent jinked away thats 3 results with 1.5 in the balance with a total of 5 not being outside the realm of averages. What happened was the first two venoms died to 5 lictors and the last venom only took a glance to 4... so while it appeared super hot at first it leveled out when combined, just unlucky for him that all the good rolls went onto two instead of being spread all around.
The ravager exploding to the mawloc hits was lucky, penned with a 6 and then rolled a 6 again, though it would have exploded to a 5 too I suppose. Also between 4 hits the odds of killing one arent terrible... I mean 50/50 you kill one I think. Hard to do the math and chaos where the high numbers land, since obviously they dont roll over but if on average you get enough results that are split or whatever. And almost any result that would have kept it stationary would be the same as dead to me, immobilized or stunned or exploded. All equal to me in that situation.
#2 well he didnt block her, so yes I was able to place one mine from each unit in base to base with her, though with how the rules for mines work you still have to pick which in each unit explodes and center the blast there so it would still I think start wounds from closest model to center of blast which largely works out the same in this case. Only had 4 grotesques and not a great consolidate so wasnt hard to do.
#3 I did know they had low leadership, didnt matter most of the game because each was babysat by a character with better leadership, though I did lament most turns that I would move Tyrant away from them and not remember shriek until the psychic phase, but needed to move the tyrant for other reasons anyway, like vehicle hunting and picking up lictors who had gone to ground, so wasnt super upset. But yeah I play dark eldar too so I knew that if the characters werent around the grots could be super vulnerable to shriek.
#4 He did make quite a few saves, escpiclaly on the initial charge. But after that he had cast paroxysm on them each turn so they actually hit him on 5's reducing attacks. And he killed one each turn after killing 2 the first turn, so diminishing return until the new squad charged and killed him. Basically 2 grotesques and urien on charge, 2 grotesques next round, 1 grotesque, no grotesques. So 16 attacks, 8 attacks, 4 attacks. 8 hits, 4 wounds... made all but one save. 2.64 hits, 1.3 wounds, in theory, I think he had none this round. And 1.32 hits, .6 wounds in theory that next round. So really not that outside the math again.
Remember when he charged it was 4 guys and urien... one died to overwatch and I smashed another. SO they never had enough guys. Also assaulting a single model means no rampage extra attacks.
jy2 wrote: Only the flyrant has the jink rule for the 2+ cover. Gargoyles will only get normal cover if the flyrant LOS to them. I'm pretty sure jink doesn't confer, though Stealth and Shroud does. Rather, it is directional fire - put the flyrant in front for the 2+ cover to tank the shots.
BTW, the unit can be tied up in combat by another tarpit unit.
I see you've never played Jinking TWC.
Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink."
Anything that can tarpit the Skytyrant can tarpit the Dimacharon easier and for longer. A Flyrant with RoO is doing 5 attacks base with 6 on the charge at initiative 8, WS 8, Strength 7, rerolling all failures to wound, and causing ID on 6's. 15 more points gets it preferred enemy, but probably isn't worth it.
Gargoyles are Poison (6+) when using their blind attack, and so can contribute a bit as well in most cases.
Wow....darn it! I'm going to put Sammael in my blob squad!
Charge a dreadnought into the unit and laugh as they struggle to get out.
If that's how it works, 20 Gargs with Terminator saves seems pretty awesome, initial surface value reaction. Then again walking a Tyrant across the battlefield for CC seems like a terrible idea regardless of durability, is there a way to drop them both in pods? I haven't seen any of these formations or know the wording or anything
luke1705 wrote: Jink doesn't confer. Which is good. I mean....SO BROKEN.
Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink." Page 167.
Jink is broken (especially on vehicles), but it also confers.
I do partially agree, however "what almost everyone does" isn't really a compelling argument at all, as it's easily possible for most players to be wrong. Up until a few weeks ago, "almost everyone" considered Lictors unplayable. Your definition for unit rankings basically turns it into a popularity contest rather than a strategy discussion, which is not a healthy approach.
However you are right, there is more competition in the slot and the Dakkafex isn't leagues above it's competitors unlike the Flyrant. But why it needs to be, to be a unit of A+ quality seems beyond me. If it was an excellent unit that contested with arguably better units I'd say so, but really every other unit is the one contesting with Dakkafex for it's slot, and you can still safely dump just as many points in Dakkafex as you can with Flyrant quite safely since you can take them in squads of up 3, and still have 2 HS slots open. Nope, this contesting in the slot isn't enough to take away Dakkafexes A+ rating in my eyes.
That's fine. What qualifies to be an 'A+' unit is my own personal barometer, and it may not necessarily be the same barometer that everyone will use to judge their units. It is all subjective anyways, as you normally take into account your experiences, good and bad, when using a unit as well as logical reasoning. You are welcome to intepret the unit as an A+ in your eyes, just like someone else is perfectly right to intepret it as an A- in their eyes. But one thing we do agree on is that a carnifex is a great unit. That's all that really matters. He is a unit that is worth taking and is an consistent contributor to the army.
luke1705 wrote: Jink doesn't confer. Which is good. I mean....SO BROKEN.
Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink." Page 167.
Jink is broken (especially on vehicles), but it also confers.
Incomplete rules text is misleading. It goes on to say "...all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save..."
The unit jinks, but only the models with the rule get the save and have to snapfire.
luke1705 wrote: Jink doesn't confer. Which is good. I mean....SO BROKEN.
Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink." Page 167.
Jink is broken (especially on vehicles), but it also confers.
Incomplete rules text is misleading. It goes on to say "...all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save..."
The unit jinks, but only the models with the rule get the save and have to snapfire.
jy2 wrote: Charge a dreadnought into the unit and laugh as they struggle to get out.
Yep. I wish so Bad the Tyrant could take Crushing Claws, but he has to make do with Rending claws instead. I will be giving mine E.Grubs for Haywire Wall of Death, but it will still be annoying.
Yes they can and can also choose which flight mode they are in
That is what I thought too, SHUPPET.
Fighter ace flyrant - ongoing reserves in enemy turn, deep strike somewhere else on your turn, rinse repeat.
Don't you have to come in the same way that you went out? So if you fly off, then you have to fly back on. If you deepstrike in, mishap and go back into reserves, then you deepstrike back in next turn? I don't think that you can move normally off the table and then deepstrike in the following turn.
Yes they can and can also choose which flight mode they are in
That is what I thought too, SHUPPET.
Fighter ace flyrant - ongoing reserves in enemy turn, deep strike somewhere else on your turn, rinse repeat.
Don't you have to come in the same way that you went out? So if you fly off, then you have to fly back on. If you deepstrike in, mishap and go back into reserves, then you deepstrike back in next turn?
I'd have to look into that. Even so -- swoop on near the edge to mid table for some key shooting. After seeing the enemy movement determine if the warlord is in danger -- if so swiftly escape again
Yes they can and can also choose which flight mode they are in
That is what I thought too, SHUPPET.
Fighter ace flyrant - ongoing reserves in enemy turn, deep strike somewhere else on your turn, rinse repeat.
Where does it give them that? It's not listed under the FMC Special Rules section. All I see are jink and vector strike.
I'm fuzzy on it which is why I asked but I thought it had to do with being treated exactly as a jump unit when not swooping. I'm not swooping in reserve. Jump units (which it is considered to be) have deep strike. It's a mess. They should be able to from a fluff standpoint but fluff ain't rules.
Edit - it also directly mentions arriving from deep strike in the FMC descriptive rules.
luke1705 wrote: Jink doesn't confer. Which is good. I mean....SO BROKEN.
Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink." Page 167.
Jink is broken (especially on vehicles), but it also confers.
Incomplete rules text is misleading. It goes on to say "...all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save..."
The unit jinks, but only the models with the rule get the save and have to snapfire.
I read that as "all models in the (Unit with the special Rule)."
And you read it as "All (models with the special rule) in the unit." Even though it isn't in my best interest, I hope you are right. I have a buddy who has played it the other way for quite a while with his space wolves.
Let me ask you in your interpretation, if a unit including a Space marine bike jinks, is the whole unit snap shooting or just the bike?
If a Flyrant fighter ace rolls a 5+, he gets silly broken silly fast. I mean just hug the edges and you can't die really. How awesome is that? A 3-4 still helps Flyrants a ton too.
Yes they can and can also choose which flight mode they are in
That is what I thought too, SHUPPET.
Fighter ace flyrant - ongoing reserves in enemy turn, deep strike somewhere else on your turn, rinse repeat.
Where does it give them that? It's not listed under the FMC Special Rules section. All I see are jink and vector strike.
FMC can move (and start off) as jump infantry. Jump infantry can always choose to deploy by deepstrike from Reserves. Thus, FMC's can also choose to deploy by deepstriking as well.
jifel wrote: If a Flyrant fighter ace rolls a 5+, he gets silly broken silly fast. I mean just hug the edges and you can't die really. How awesome is that? A 3-4 still helps Flyrants a ton too.
Lots of stuff is 'broken' in the game. 2++ re-roll, wave serpents, ad lance, more I'm sure. But the TOs pick what broken gets to play and what sits out. I expect to see this banned though I hope it isn't for fairness' sake. Same goes for hive fleet FOC plus CAD.
luke1705 wrote: Jink doesn't confer. Which is good. I mean....SO BROKEN.
Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink." Page 167.
Jink is broken (especially on vehicles), but it also confers.
Incomplete rules text is misleading. It goes on to say "...all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save..."
The unit jinks, but only the models with the rule get the save and have to snapfire.
I read that as "all models in the (Unit with the special Rule)."
And you read it as "All (models with the special rule) in the unit." Even though it isn't in my best interest, I hope you are right. I have a buddy who has played it the other way for quite a while with his space wolves.
Let me ask you in your interpretation, if a unit including a Space marine bike jinks, is the whole unit snap shooting or just the bike?
It's just the bike. The unit doesn't get the rule - only the models have it. Since models are never the target of shooting attacks (except focused witchfire) the unit declares jink. But only models benefit. So no jinking gargoyles.
luke1705 wrote: Jink doesn't confer. Which is good. I mean....SO BROKEN.
Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink." Page 167.
Jink is broken (especially on vehicles), but it also confers.
Incomplete rules text is misleading. It goes on to say "...all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save..."
The unit jinks, but only the models with the rule get the save and have to snapfire.
I read that as "all models in the (Unit with the special Rule)."
And you read it as "All (models with the special rule) in the unit." Even though it isn't in my best interest, I hope you are right. I have a buddy who has played it the other way for quite a while with his space wolves.
Let me ask you in your interpretation, if a unit including a Space marine bike jinks, is the whole unit snap shooting or just the bike?
It's just the bike. The unit doesn't get the rule - only the models have it. Since models are never the target of shooting attacks (except focused witchfire) the unit declares jink. But only models benefit. So no jinking gargoyles.
That is my intepretation as well. Only the model gets the jink save and only that model has to snapfire.
I call shenanigans on a White Scars biker captain giving an entire platoon of 50 infantry men 3+ Stealth cover just because he jinked.
1-2: +6" for synapse range or auto pass IB. 3-4: Additional wound 5-6: Can enter ongoing reserves if withing 12" of table edge at the beginning of the opponent's shooting phase.
jy2 wrote: I call shenanigans on a White Scars biker captain giving an entire platoon of 50 infantry men 3+ Stealth cover just because he jinked.
I stand corrected, and rescend my promises of a super broken deathstar formation. It is still good, and still better than the Dimacharon because it moves 12" instead of 6", but it isn't a panacea.
Well, that's really good. Extra wound on a Flyrant is worth at least 60 points. 5-6 is obviously ridiculous, 1-2 is just a crappier Norn Crown however but I guess that's the risk you run.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So got into a rules conflict the other day - exactly how DOES the Mawloc interact with ruins now? It says multi-level ruins only units on the bottom are hit, there was the interpretation that this means they hit every level since there is no money levels in ruins,here was also the interpretation that it means they hit none seeing as there is technically no "bottom" level although I think that one is quite outlandish. The last interpretation is that Mawlocs still only hit the bottom level of the ruin as it's not so much a rules terms as a term descriptive of terrain regardless of whether or not there is multi-level global ruins in this BrB.
SHUPPET wrote: Well, that's really good. Extra wound on a Flyrant is worth at least 60 points. 5-6 is obviously ridiculous, 1-2 is just a crappier Norn Crown however but I guess that's the risk you run.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So got into a rules conflict the other day - exactly how DOES the Mawloc interact with ruins now? It says multi-level ruins only units on the bottom are hit, there was the interpretation that this means they hit every level since there is no money levels in ruins,here was also the interpretation that it means they hit none seeing as there is technically no "bottom" level although I think that one is quite outlandish. The last interpretation is that Mawlocs still only hit the bottom level of the ruin as it's not so much a rules terms as a term descriptive of terrain regardless of whether or not there is multi-level global ruins in this BrB.
It just hits the ground floor of the ruins. It is actually consistent with the rules, as a unit that deepstrikes in from reserves always land on the ground floor of ruins.
TY Jy2 that was my interpretation as well, although my polite opponent was arguing it hits everything. And the onlooker with spent 2 cents trying to tell us it does nothing, we played it my way since it was somewhat the medium and it was my army, good to know I did it right.
RAW, Mawlocs do not get the second blast right? It says when entering from DS reserves, but if reburrowing the enter ongoing reserves, and while they can enter through Deepstrike entry method, DS reserves is only units held in reserve to be DS'd from deployment? I know it's dumb and obviously not intentional and nobody in my local will ever enforce that, but TECHNICALLY is this not the case?
SHUPPET wrote: Well, that's really good. Extra wound on a Flyrant is worth at least 60 points. 5-6 is obviously ridiculous, 1-2 is just a crappier Norn Crown however but I guess that's the risk you run.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So got into a rules conflict the other day - exactly how DOES the Mawloc interact with ruins now? It says multi-level ruins only units on the bottom are hit, there was the interpretation that this means they hit every level since there is no money levels in ruins,here was also the interpretation that it means they hit none seeing as there is technically no "bottom" level although I think that one is quite outlandish. The last interpretation is that Mawlocs still only hit the bottom level of the ruin as it's not so much a rules terms as a term descriptive of terrain regardless of whether or not there is multi-level global ruins in this BrB.
It just hits the ground floor of the ruins. It is actually consistent with the rules, as a unit that deepstrikes in from reserves always land on the ground floor of ruins.
Are you sure about deep striking into the ground floor? I don't know if that is a thing now that they search and replaced every occurrence of "multi level ruins" in the BRB with "forge the narrative"
As far as the Mawloc, IT has a specific rule in our codex stating how it jnteracts with multi level ruins (only hits the bottom level). Codex > BRB.
Also I'd like to earmark the Dimachaeron for myself if you don't mind
Well, I started on the Bio-Artifacts and Wargear, got halfway through, and hit the wrong losing all my progress. I'll try again tomorrow. Curious thing I noticed- most of the wargear is only available to a specific subset of models. Should I just skip over them as they will probably be discussed in their unit write-up, or just go ahead and share my thoughts as well?
Probably just skip them IMO they aren't very global and all are very niche, the very few times something is worth mentioning it can be mentioned for the units relative to it.
Did you guys notice that in order to use the Hive Fleet Detachment, you have to roll on the Tyranid Warlord trait table. Having to give up strategic is a pretty significant cost for one extra flyrant.
SHUPPET wrote: Well, that's really good. Extra wound on a Flyrant is worth at least 60 points. 5-6 is obviously ridiculous, 1-2 is just a crappier Norn Crown however but I guess that's the risk you run.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So got into a rules conflict the other day - exactly how DOES the Mawloc interact with ruins now? It says multi-level ruins only units on the bottom are hit, there was the interpretation that this means they hit every level since there is no money levels in ruins,here was also the interpretation that it means they hit none seeing as there is technically no "bottom" level although I think that one is quite outlandish. The last interpretation is that Mawlocs still only hit the bottom level of the ruin as it's not so much a rules terms as a term descriptive of terrain regardless of whether or not there is multi-level global ruins in this BrB.
It just hits the ground floor of the ruins. It is actually consistent with the rules, as a unit that deepstrikes in from reserves always land on the ground floor of ruins.
Are you sure about deep striking into the ground floor? I don't know if that is a thing now that they search and replaced every occurrence of "multi level ruins" in the BRB with "forge the narrative"
As far as the Mawloc, IT has a specific rule in our codex stating how it jnteracts with multi level ruins (only hits the bottom level). Codex > BRB.
Also I'd like to earmark the Dimachaeron for myself if you don't mind
Not 100% as I don't have my rulebook or codex with me, but I'll check when I get home.
tag8833 wrote: Did you guys notice that in order to use the Hive Fleet Detachment, you have to roll on the Tyranid Warlord trait table. Having to give up strategic is a pretty significant cost for one extra flyrant.
That's why you take a Primary detachment and then take the Hive Fleet as a formation.
And if you take Skyblight or some other formation, just make that your primary formation instead.
RAW, Mawlocs do not get the second blast right? It says when entering from DS reserves, but if reburrowing the enter ongoing reserves, and while they can enter through Deepstrike entry method, DS reserves is only units held in reserve to be DS'd from deployment? I know it's dumb and obviously not intentional and nobody in my local will ever enforce that, but TECHNICALLY is this not the case?
RAW, Mawlocs do not get the second blast right? It says when entering from DS reserves, but if reburrowing the enter ongoing reserves, and while they can enter through Deepstrike entry method, DS reserves is only units held in reserve to be DS'd from deployment? I know it's dumb and obviously not intentional and nobody in my local will ever enforce that, but TECHNICALLY is this not the case?
It's an ongoing question as to whether you need to enter from ongoing reserves in the same way that you initially deployed - ie can a unit of gargoyles from Skyblight that deployed normally choose to deep strike in when they are "recreated"? That's an especially complex case because are they a new unit? Did they actually get recycled and are they still the "same" unit?
In any case, some time ago I spent WAY too much time reading the section about reserves, etc and reading the most persuasive arguments on both sides. As much as I am a very opinionated person, I honestly could not interpret any semblance of RAW or RAI there. To save my life, it would be a complete toss up. I play it that you have to deploy the second time the same way that you did the first time, but that's mostly because it makes most sense to me. When in doubt, give yourself less tactical options.
Something I'm curious about - this fighter ace thing - seems pretty freaking awesome on a 3+, but we're also already in flying land raider territory with our hive tyrants. Is it really worth the extra wound or hoping for the ultimate maneuverability of the 5 and 6? I mean, that's 10 points less than a fully kitted out CCB....and if we want to take like 3 or four of them now that we can (and for a competitive setting we absolutely do) but that's....1100 points for those 4 models. Of course, completely worth it in Apoc. "Oh you want to shoot at my flying hive tyrants? Well, YOU CAN'T!!!!"
a returning unit of gargs is a completely new unit, it starts in reserve. there shouldnt' be any conflict at all with allowing them to deep strike, you'd just have to declare it.
SHUPPET wrote: Well, that's really good. Extra wound on a Flyrant is worth at least 60 points. 5-6 is obviously ridiculous, 1-2 is just a crappier Norn Crown however but I guess that's the risk you run.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So got into a rules conflict the other day - exactly how DOES the Mawloc interact with ruins now? It says multi-level ruins only units on the bottom are hit, there was the interpretation that this means they hit every level since there is no money levels in ruins,here was also the interpretation that it means they hit none seeing as there is technically no "bottom" level although I think that one is quite outlandish. The last interpretation is that Mawlocs still only hit the bottom level of the ruin as it's not so much a rules terms as a term descriptive of terrain regardless of whether or not there is multi-level global ruins in this BrB.
It just hits the ground floor of the ruins. It is actually consistent with the rules, as a unit that deepstrikes in from reserves always land on the ground floor of ruins.
Are you sure about deep striking into the ground floor? I don't know if that is a thing now that they search and replaced every occurrence of "multi level ruins" in the BRB with "forge the narrative"
As far as the Mawloc, IT has a specific rule in our codex stating how it jnteracts with multi level ruins (only hits the bottom level). Codex > BRB.
Also I'd like to earmark the Dimachaeron for myself if you don't mind
You want the D? You got the D!
So after checking, yes, units that deepstrike onto ruins always land on the ground floor (p. 162 of the BRB). The rules for the mawloc is absolutely in-line and consistent with those of deepstriking units in the BRB.
RAW, Mawlocs do not get the second blast right? It says when entering from DS reserves, but if reburrowing the enter ongoing reserves, and while they can enter through Deepstrike entry method, DS reserves is only units held in reserve to be DS'd from deployment? I know it's dumb and obviously not intentional and nobody in my local will ever enforce that, but TECHNICALLY is this not the case?
They still get the blast.
1. Ongoing Reserves is still reserves and they are still deepstriking in from reserves. Therefore, they are coming in via Deep Strike reserves. Going to Reserves isn't limited only to the beginning of the game, but can happen throughout the game (i.e. mishaps, flyers flying off the table).
2. If they don't get the 2nd blast, then they don't get the 1st blast as well. It's you either get both or you get none.
Took a shot at the biovore. Might need someone to fix the spelling errors as english is not my native language.
Biovore
These are the cheapest option from our heavy support slot, able to take 3 for the same cost as the next cheapest choice. They fit the role of long range artilery.
The Biovore comes with a 48" large blast at S4 AP4 With the Barrage and spore burst rules can treaten a huge area which sets it appart from the majority of the shorter ranged weapons more commen in the army.
Ideal targets are large low T low SV units such as guardsmen, firewarriors or gaunts. Whenn faced with the more elite armies they drop in efficency alto they can still be valuable puting on wounds and forcing pinning test.
With str 4 they can glance av10 vehicles alto unreliable it can be usefull from time to time.
Whenn a biovore misses the shots are not lost but will instead spawn D3 spore mines. These act as a spore mine cluster for the rest of the game, Usefull for blocking movement, taking fire away from your army or simply running into an enemy unit and blowing up. These gain 1 str for every mine in the unit making themm more reliable of hurting vehicles and High T models.
Biovores come in broods of 1-3, getting the extra bodies is usualy a good choice, getting more firepower without taking away slots for other heavy support options.
Biovores tend to be deployed inside cover as to protect themm from enemy fire, deploying themm away from you main force can force your openent to have to ignore themm or commit units to dealing with themm keeping themm out of combat for a few turns.
Important to remember is the fact that without synapse cover they are subjective to Instictive behavior Hunt. If choosing to commit a synapse unit to themm a good choice can be a warrior brood with a bio cannon, these will also be strong in countercharging whatever comes after the biovores.
Another way is to deploy themm closer to your main force in which case the synapse cover will be easier to handle, they will also benifit well from shrouded if you decide to also include malanthrope or venomthropes.
Idealy these guys don't see close combat however they aren't terible at it they can be expected to hold their own against Msu or wounded units on their own.
Biovores are also featured in the Living artilery node this requires you to also take an exocrine and tyranid warriors.
This will provide your biovores with the ability to reroll the scatter dice whenn within 12" of the warriors making themm all the more reliable.
Amoras wrote: Took a shot at the biovore. Might need someone to fix the spelling errors as english is not my native language.
Biovore
These are the cheapest option from our heavy support slot, being able to take 3 in a brood for the same cost as the next cheapest choice. They fit the role of long range artillery.
The Biovore comes with a 48" large blast at S4 AP4 with the Barrage and Spore Burst rules which can threaten a huge area which sets it apart from the majority of the shorter ranged weapons more common in the army.
Ideal targets are large hordes of low T low SV units such as guardsmen, fire warriors or gaunts. When faced with the more elite armies they drop in efficiency although they can still be valuable creating wounds and forcing a Pinning test.
With S4 they can glance rear armour AV10 vehicles, although unreliable it can be useful if needed.
When a Biovore misses the shots are not lost but will instead spawn D3 spore mines. These act as a spore mine cluster for the rest of the game, useful for blocking movement, taking fire away from your army or simply running into an enemy unit and blowing up It is important to rememberthat Spore Mines do not Deep Strike in and therefore, can charge the turn they come in. This allows Spore Mines to soak up Overwatch which can allow your CC orientated Tyranids to get into combat unharmed. These gain +1 Strength for each Spore Mine underneath the Blast marker making them more reliable of hurting vehicles and High Tougness models. [b]
Biovores come in broods of 1-3, getting the extra bodies is usually a good choice, getting more firepower without taking away slots for other heavy support options.
Biovores tend to be deployed inside cover as to protect them from enemy fire, deploying them away from you main force can force your openent to have to ignore them or commit units to dealing withthem keeping themm out of combat for a few turns.
Important to remember is the fact that without synapse cover they are subjective to Instinctive Behavior:Hunt. If choosing to commit a synapse unit to them a good choice can be a warrior brood with a bio cannon, these will also be strong in supporting whatever comes after the Biovores.
Another way is to deploy them closer to your main force in which case the synapse cover will be easier to handle, they will also benefit well from Shrouded if you decide to also include a Malanthrope or Venomthropes.
Ideally these guys don't see close combat, however they aren't terrible if they find themselves in it at it they can be expected to hold their own against Msu or wounded units on their own.
Biovores are also featured in the Living Living node this requires you to also take an exocrine and tyranid warriors.
This will provide your biovores with the ability to reroll the scatter dice whenn within 12" of the warriors making themm all the more reliable.
Grade A-
What I would do:
Add/Change wording
Typo fix
Remove
(I would remove the mention of the Living Artillery since there will be formation reviews IIRC).
Wilson wrote: Kinda related to nids as its in response to the fighter ace rules;
Does BAO and/ or any tournements format allow death from the skies fighter ace upgrades?
Before now they were only allowed in specific scenarios. But with leviathan, the option to use them in any game was added. We will have to see what Reece decides to do.
I'll be honest, I don't know.
I've never seen anyone try to use the previous Death From The Skies rules at an event...
The formations sound interesting; a big part of it will depend on whether you can buy tyrannocytes and tyrant guard when they're not listed in the formation's rules.
My first thought on the Sporefield is.......must resist fielding an entirely spore mine army......
It feels a bit off for a Biovore review. How does this work?
Biovore
Biovores are the premium artillery of the Tyranid Codex.
1. They are cheap and can easily be fielded in large numbers.
2. They produce spore mines when they miss.
Biovores are one of the few Tyranid units that has very little compulsion to move, having plenty of range to sit back and shell the enemy. With a 48" gun, it has little to fear from enemy units, but precautions must be taken regardless. Unfortunately, the Biovore suffers from IB: Hunt, which can force it to go to ground though more times than not, it will force it to go after the closest enemy unit. This is risky for artillery with a low S blast, since the closest enemy unit may just be a heavy vehicle and not the blob halfway down the field so a babysitter should be found. Tyranid Warriors are the best option with their own 36" gun, however, this is just shy of the cost of a second full brood of Biovores. An option might be several broods along with a group of warriors to protect them, but if going this route, a better option can be found in a specific formation that can be found in later areas of the review. The synaptic babysitter also doubles as the standard protection detail to discourage harassment units. Always make sure that you keep them in cover to take advantage of the durability boost.
When most artillery misses, the shot is wasted. When Biovores miss however, they now deploy d3 Spore Mines that do not suffer any penalties. That means they can assault on the turn of creation, and lead to their own S4-6 explosion which can harm moderate toughness units and medium heavy vehicles. One thing to keep in mind however is that Biovores are not tank hunters. Your primary targets will be the weaker troop options such as guardsmen, eldar, and orks, so don't put too much faith on missing multiple units and trying to fish for S6 blasts.
You make some good points. The two reviews could probably be condensed into one.
@jy2
I should hopefully be able to get the Tervigon analysis done by tonight, after completing a power session getting through my Psychology essay. I'll also do the Tyranid Bio-Artifacts review, since the Tervigon has access to them.
I'm thinking of omitting the mention of Bio-Artifacts in the Tervigon profile and simply say 'See Bio-Artifacts review' for that part and when it come to reviewing the Bio-Artifacts themselves, state recommended units for them as well as if they are competitive or not. Not many units have access to them, so I don't think it would be useful to mention them in each profile that gets them (Tyrant, Tervigon, Primes) and instead have a general overview - whereas Biomorphs mean different things for different units and are found throughout the Codex (ie for AG, Carnifexes IK T5, Gargoyles can move 12 and re-roll charge instead of one or, Hormagaunts can glance AV10, etc..)
Personally, my goal is to try to add a couple of units each day.
Lictor: The Lictor is a curious fellow. His role in the army isn't quite so defined. Is he an offensive threat? Is he a force-multiplier? Is he a defensive beast? Is he a faciliator? An objective-sitter? A bullet-catcher? What is he? I like to think of him more as a little bit of each. More importantly, he can be used by Tyranid players to help control the Movement phase. So let's analyze how he can contribute to the Hive Mind.
1. The ability to pop up anyone on the table without scatter is highly useful. You can place him on an objective if you need. You can put him behind a vehicle for some rear shots. You can use him to lure enemy resources away from your main force as your opponent has to dedicate some of his resources to deal with the lictor. Basically, with Chameleonic Skin, you can dictate where you want your opponent to go to a degree.
2. Homing beacon. With the advent of Tyranid spore pods (tyrannocytes), he has become more useful than ever. Infiltrate him in a strategic location and the following turn, when you mawlocs or pods come in, they can do so accurately, assuming the lictor survives.
3. He is actually an offensive threat to transports and smaller, MSU-type units. As a result, he really cannot be ignored and the opponent will have to deal with him and in doing so, you can direct where you want your opponent to go. It also helps to make your army slightly more durable as he has to allocate some of his firepower/offense to deal with the lictor.
4. Even if there isn't anything for him to do, you can always drop him off on an objective. He is cheap enough that your army won't miss much if he's not involved in the offense and actually somewhat durable if you put him on an objective in some ruins. He is also great for Linebreaker purposes.
5. Cheap. He acts somewhat as a bullet-catcher as he will force your opponent to deal with him, and he is cheap enough that if you lose him, then it won't really affect your offense all that much.
The lictor is not without its drawbacks, however. He can give up VP's easily in missions where VP's (Purge the Alien or certain Maelstrom objectives) are concerned. He is big so is harder to hide for objective-grabbing purposes. He will fold to almost any unit bigger than a min-sized MSU unit. He does a little bit of everything but he does nothing really well (except to pop up wherever you need him to....and then die). Usually, he is an easy First Blood for the enemy and he does not function well without support. However, with some support or in a Tyranid MTO (Maximum Threat Overload) type of list, this guy can pleasantly surprise you, especially if he is ignored by the opponent.
I should hopefully be able to get the Tervigon analysis done by tonight, after completing a power session getting through my Psychology essay. I'll also do the Tyranid Bio-Artifacts review, since the Tervigon has access to them.
I'm thinking of omitting the mention of Bio-Artifacts in the Tervigon profile and simply say 'See Bio-Artifacts review' for that part and when it come to reviewing the Bio-Artifacts themselves, state recommended units for them as well as if they are competitive or not. Not many units have access to them, so I don't think it would be useful to mention them in each profile that gets them (Tyrant, Tervigon, Primes) and instead have a general overview - whereas Biomorphs mean different things for different units and are found throughout the Codex (ie for AG, Carnifexes IK T5, Gargoyles can move 12 and re-roll charge instead of one or, Hormagaunts can glance AV10, etc..)
Cool, no rush.
I'll save the biomorphs for a different review. Though you can mention which biomorphs will go well with the tervigon, you don't need to review each biomorph in detail (unless you want to). For your grading, you can have different grades for different configurations of the unit if you want. Just as an example, tervigon (w/egrubs + crushing claws) - B+, tervigon (vanilla) - B (you decide the grading for the tervigon, you don't have to follow my examples).
Wilson wrote: Kinda related to nids as its in response to the fighter ace rules;
Does BAO and/ or any tournements format allow death from the skies fighter ace upgrades?
Isn't death from the skies a whole different ruleset like Kill team? I don't think it is part of normal 40k.
"In any mission with the Fighter Ace special rule." That doesn't include any mission that I've ever seen, except for those included in the original Death from the Skies supplement.
Wilson wrote: Kinda related to nids as its in response to the fighter ace rules;
Does BAO and/ or any tournements format allow death from the skies fighter ace upgrades?
Isn't death from the skies a whole different ruleset like Kill team? I don't think it is part of normal 40k.
"In any mission with the Fighter Ace special rule." That doesn't include any mission that I've ever seen, except for those included in the original Death from the Skies supplement.
There's more. If one continues reading, there's this section called....
"Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions"
So yes, Fighter Aces can be legally used in standard 40K. Now it's just a matter of whether TO's will allow it in their tournaments.
If I have an unique character as warlord on the Hive Fleet Detachement, does it gets it's fixed trait? or it must roll on the Hive Fleet Leviathan's warlord traits table?
Wilson wrote: Kinda related to nids as its in response to the fighter ace rules;
Does BAO and/ or any tournements format allow death from the skies fighter ace upgrades?
Don't know yet. It's not even offically out yet (is it?).
My gut tells me that the BAO will allow it. The Fighter Ace rules, while good, are no where near broken so I expect them to be allowed in most tournaments, but we will see.
Tyran wrote: If I have an unique character as warlord on the Hive Fleet Detachement, does it gets it's fixed trait? or it must roll on the Hive Fleet Leviathan's warlord traits table?
It gets its fixed trait. The HFL Warlord table is only for Warlords that have to roll for it.
P. 19 & 21 of the BRB strongly implies that ruins have levels.
Sadly my version does not seem to have the same pages as yours. But, some quotes about levels and rules interactions would be nice. 6th edition had a great explanations about levels.
You know, I've been distant from working on my nids for a while now, but in all this excitement, it has rekindled my hope for looking for a "not a Parasite of Mortrex" unit in the future. Perhaps as a 3 model box that makes shrikes, and the parasite as an upgrade. Anyhow, has anyone run the numbers on podded hive guard? I haven't heard much on them recently, but I do recall they have that haywire gun. Can't pull up the stats myself at the moment since I am on campus and my book is back home on the shelf.
Total 1845(1850 if 2 Venoms insted of Malanthrope)
Is this as sick as it seems to be lol.
Oops forgot to add: This is 5 Fighter Ace Flyrants, 20 Warp Charge and all cheeze...... wow! Just to note Id never feild this unless somone asked for it but just wow!!
While most of the unit write ups seem solid, I am very confused by the grades.
For example, in no world should the tyranid prime be considered an A because it's cheap. It's not cheap.
The grades should be simplified. Adding in +/- make too many categories.
I'd also strongly recommend defining exactly what the grades mean:
A - At least one should be in every list (i.e. Tyrant, Malanthrope/Venomthrope)
B - A good, competitive unit that can easily fit into any competitive list (i.e. Carnifex, LAN biovores)
C - An average unit with some good but some drawbacks (i.e. Tyrannofex, non-LAN Biovores)
D - An okay unit with some serious drawbacks (i.e. Zoanthropes, Hive Guard)
F - No good will come from this unit (i.e. Maleceptor)
Timeshadow wrote: Long time lurker here on dakka (Thats what bugs do isn't it)
Just had to post this just so everyone can see the horror of the new rules
Total 1845(1850 if 2 Venoms insted of Malanthrope)
Is this as sick as it seems to be lol.
Not really...I am trying to understand the widespread use of Zoanthropes. Unfortunetely, they are going to be rather slow and they seem to serve no rational purpose. You are bringing very little in the sense of board control, as the vast majority of your units are slow synaptic units that have to rely on a invul save to survive. Your relying on Flyrants to bring down all opposition, but as even Jim has said a time or two, by investing that many points into them, your actually leaving yourself very easy to counter by having an extreme lack of genuine board control. The reason Flyrants work well is that they are mobile and can support a push of lots of ground threats so that they can reach the front lines unharmed. By having virtually no threats on the ground. Your just making it easy for the opponent to just pick off all your MSUs for easy VPs and a win.
NamelessBard wrote: While most of the unit write ups seem solid, I am very confused by the grades.
For example, in no world should the tyranid prime be considered an A because it's cheap. It's not cheap.
Cheap is subjective. I use it in the literal sense. You're bringing the bare minimum HQ unit, and I rather pointedly said that your not bringing it for extreme murdering. If your bringing something cheap, it's because your putting the other 80+s you would have fielded on an HQ elsewhere.
Timeshadow wrote: Long time lurker here on dakka (Thats what bugs do isn't it)
Just had to post this just so everyone can see the horror of the new rules
Total 1845(1850 if 2 Venoms insted of Malanthrope)
Is this as sick as it seems to be lol.
Oops forgot to add: This is 5 Fighter Ace Flyrants, 20 Warp Charge and all cheeze...... wow! Just to note Id never feild this unless somone asked for it but just wow!!
Welcome to the Tyranid Tactica, Timeshadow. Always good to see new Tyranid players to this thread.
Yeah, it gets pretty sic with the new formation. 5 flyrants with Fighter Ace is going to be stupid good.
I feel that your army can be improved upon. To me, a psychic choir here is not necessary. You really don't need all those warp dice as the primary focus of your flyrants won't really be to cast powers. Moreover, all those zoans don't really add much to the mobility of your army. They will basically be stuck in their deployment zone.
Rather, consider swapping out some of those zoans (ok, most of them) for lictors. I feel that lictors fit better in your list. One of the weaknesses of the list is that most likely you won't land your flyrants in order to keep them alive. And zoans will be hard pressed to stray too far from their deployment zones. Thus, you will have a tough time getting to the far objectives. Enter the lictor. He is a good disruption unit that can reach the far objectives, help to control your opponent's movements and can be used to guide in deepstriking rippers and mucolids.
P. 19 & 21 of the BRB strongly implies that ruins have levels.
Sadly my version does not seem to have the same pages as yours. But, some quotes about levels and rules interactions would be nice. 6th edition had a great explanations about levels.
It has something to do with unit coherency being 6" vertically when on different levels of terrain or ruins. I'll find quotes later when I have the time.
Just put in my order for 2 Tyrannocytes! Only cost me £60, giftsforgeeks have an offer on using the voucher code EARLYBIRD, but today is the last day it is valid. Gives you an extra 5% off on top of their usual 20% discount!
To reply to you Unyealding and Jy2, I just like huge warp charge pools, and in a 1850 pts army its hard to get a big pool with a pure nid force without loosing somthing. I think the combined dakka and psychic presence of the Flyrant Ace's makes up for much of the loss of board control but I could easily drop 3 Zoes leaving 14 WC(still tons) and take 150 pts of gribbles say 2 more DSing Ripper swarms of 3 and 20 Homigaunts(or 2 squads of 10 Homis) that would give back a huge chunk of board control.
oops bad mathing..... 1 DS Ripper Brood and 2x 10 Hgaunt Broods
I refuse to run 5 Tyrants, its simply not fun. I havent ruled out putting a Dimachaeron in place of the Carnifex. Then again, I havent ruled out a third Mawloc either. I learned from Mechanicon that four Tyrants is a LOT of firepower, and that multiple AP2 blasts go a long way.
Eldercaveman wrote: Just put in my order for 2 Tyrannocytes! Only cost me £60, giftsforgeeks have an offer on using the voucher code EARLYBIRD, but today is the last day it is valid. Gives you an extra 5% off on top of their usual 20% discount!
Off topic! got mine from Element at 30.40 each and next day delivery for free
I refuse to run 5 Tyrants, its simply not fun. I havent ruled out putting a Dimachaeron in place of the Carnifex. Then again, I havent ruled out a third Mawloc either. I learned from Mechanicon that four Tyrants is a LOT of firepower, and that multiple AP2 blasts go a long way.
This looks like a fun list. As I mentioned earlier I'd never normally run the list I posted I almost never go with more than 2 or 3 Flyrants I was just pointing out the nastyness that we could see in the near future.
Yes they can and can also choose which flight mode they are in
That is what I thought too, SHUPPET.
Fighter ace flyrant - ongoing reserves in enemy turn, deep strike somewhere else on your turn, rinse repeat.
Where does it give them that? It's not listed under the FMC Special Rules section. All I see are jink and vector strike.
FMC can move (and start off) as jump infantry. Jump infantry can always choose to deploy by deepstrike from Reserves. Thus, FMC's can also choose to deploy by deepstriking as well.
That's the way I've always seen it...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Well, that's really good. Extra wound on a Flyrant is worth at least 60 points. 5-6 is obviously ridiculous, 1-2 is just a crappier Norn Crown however but I guess that's the risk you run.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So got into a rules conflict the other day - exactly how DOES the Mawloc interact with ruins now? It says multi-level ruins only units on the bottom are hit, there was the interpretation that this means they hit every level since there is no money levels in ruins,here was also the interpretation that it means they hit none seeing as there is technically no "bottom" level although I think that one is quite outlandish. The last interpretation is that Mawlocs still only hit the bottom level of the ruin as it's not so much a rules terms as a term descriptive of terrain regardless of whether or not there is multi-level global ruins in this BrB.
I'd play it as the last, unless the dude's a total rules lawyer. Then I'd argue that ruins have no levels. In all likelihood he already made that argument earlier.
I refuse to run 5 Tyrants, its simply not fun. I havent ruled out putting a Dimachaeron in place of the Carnifex. Then again, I havent ruled out a third Mawloc either. I learned from Mechanicon that four Tyrants is a LOT of firepower, and that multiple AP2 blasts go a long way.
This looks like a fun list. As I mentioned earlier I'd never normally run the list I posted I almost never go with more than 2 or 3 Flyrants I was just pointing out the nastyness that we could see in the near future.
1. I really hope they allow the 0-1 Fighter ace rule into tournaments. I asked one of the local TO with the new page from the Baal book as reference and he said that it's a straight up no.
2. Would 5 flyrants be competitive though? I mean, it takes up a lot of pts and doesn't leave much space for anything else if your running 17-1850...
Its extremely competitive. Extreme mobility/durability/firepower. It'd be bad news for a lot of matchups without absolutely dedicated antiair, and a lot of it.
NamelessBard wrote: While most of the unit write ups seem solid, I am very confused by the grades.
For example, in no world should the tyranid prime be considered an A because it's cheap. It's not cheap.
The grades should be simplified. Adding in +/- make too many categories.
I'd also strongly recommend defining exactly what the grades mean:
A - At least one should be in every list (i.e. Tyrant, Malanthrope/Venomthrope)
B - A good, competitive unit that can easily fit into any competitive list (i.e. Carnifex, LAN biovores)
C - An average unit with some good but some drawbacks (i.e. Tyrannofex, non-LAN Biovores)
D - An okay unit with some serious drawbacks (i.e. Zoanthropes, Hive Guard)
F - No good will come from this unit (i.e. Maleceptor)
I fully agree with this and will take this into account when making the Tervigon/editing the Carnifex write ups. Not sure I agree with the definitions for each category but simplification looks better (and makes write ups easier).
Timeshadow wrote: Long time lurker here on dakka (Thats what bugs do isn't it)
Just had to post this just so everyone can see the horror of the new rules
Total 1845(1850 if 2 Venoms insted of Malanthrope)
Is this as sick as it seems to be lol.
Oops forgot to add: This is 5 Fighter Ace Flyrants, 20 Warp Charge and all cheeze...... wow! Just to note Id never feild this unless somone asked for it but just wow!!
Welcome to the Tyranid Tactica, Timeshadow. Always good to see new Tyranid players to this thread.
Yeah, it gets pretty sic with the new formation. 5 flyrants with Fighter Ace is going to be stupid good.
I feel that your army can be improved upon. To me, a psychic choir here is not necessary. You really don't need all those warp dice as the primary focus of your flyrants won't really be to cast powers. Moreover, all those zoans don't really add much to the mobility of your army. They will basically be stuck in their deployment zone.
Rather, consider swapping out some of those zoans (ok, most of them) for lictors. I feel that lictors fit better in your list. One of the weaknesses of the list is that most likely you won't land your flyrants in order to keep them alive. And zoans will be hard pressed to stray too far from their deployment zones. Thus, you will have a tough time getting to the far objectives. Enter the lictor. He is a good disruption unit that can reach the far objectives, help to control your opponent's movements and can be used to guide in deepstriking rippers and mucolids.
P. 19 & 21 of the BRB strongly implies that ruins have levels.
Sadly my version does not seem to have the same pages as yours. But, some quotes about levels and rules interactions would be nice. 6th edition had a great explanations about levels.
It has something to do with unit coherency being 6" vertically when on different levels of terrain or ruins. I'll find quotes later when I have the time.
I'm just asking because I can't recall...but are not Zoeys Jump Infantry? So can't they Deep Strike? I've always thought they could, but never been tempted. But seeing them criticized for lack of mobility, causes me to jump to Zoeys defense!
NamelessBard wrote: While most of the unit write ups seem solid, I am very confused by the grades.
For example, in no world should the tyranid prime be considered an A because it's cheap. It's not cheap.
Cheap is subjective. I use it in the literal sense. You're bringing the bare minimum HQ unit, and I rather pointedly said that your not bringing it for extreme murdering. If your bringing something cheap, it's because your putting the other 80+s you would have fielded on an HQ elsewhere.
But that's silly. A prime + 80 is a complete waste of points. You won't get better mileage out of those 80 points in something else than a flyrant.
I fully agree with this and will take this into account when making the Tervigon/editing the Carnifex write ups. Not sure I agree with the definitions for each category but simplification looks better (and makes write ups easier).
Either way, something that is easy to reference that has everyone working off the same ranking is necessary.
Timeshadow wrote: Long time lurker here on dakka (Thats what bugs do isn't it)
Just had to post this just so everyone can see the horror of the new rules
Total 1845(1850 if 2 Venoms insted of Malanthrope)
Is this as sick as it seems to be lol.
Oops forgot to add: This is 5 Fighter Ace Flyrants, 20 Warp Charge and all cheeze...... wow! Just to note Id never feild this unless somone asked for it but just wow!!
Welcome to the Tyranid Tactica, Timeshadow. Always good to see new Tyranid players to this thread.
Yeah, it gets pretty sic with the new formation. 5 flyrants with Fighter Ace is going to be stupid good.
I feel that your army can be improved upon. To me, a psychic choir here is not necessary. You really don't need all those warp dice as the primary focus of your flyrants won't really be to cast powers. Moreover, all those zoans don't really add much to the mobility of your army. They will basically be stuck in their deployment zone.
Rather, consider swapping out some of those zoans (ok, most of them) for lictors. I feel that lictors fit better in your list. One of the weaknesses of the list is that most likely you won't land your flyrants in order to keep them alive. And zoans will be hard pressed to stray too far from their deployment zones. Thus, you will have a tough time getting to the far objectives. Enter the lictor. He is a good disruption unit that can reach the far objectives, help to control your opponent's movements and can be used to guide in deepstriking rippers and mucolids.
P. 19 & 21 of the BRB strongly implies that ruins have levels.
Sadly my version does not seem to have the same pages as yours. But, some quotes about levels and rules interactions would be nice. 6th edition had a great explanations about levels.
It has something to do with unit coherency being 6" vertically when on different levels of terrain or ruins. I'll find quotes later when I have the time.
I'm just asking because I can't recall...but are not Zoeys Jump Infantry? So can't they Deep Strike? I've always thought they could, but never been tempted. But seeing them criticized for lack of mobility, causes me to jump to Zoeys defense!
Alas, they are not :/
@Timeshadow I would field that list against my friends Daemons, as he likes to play Daemon Factory (and we always be TFG against each other just to see which cheese tastes better)
Kinda off to the side, but while I was eating breakfast I was noodling around with lists, and I saw an odd thing. I was looking at if pods would help make Tervigon a "must take, to strong choice" again.
pinecone77 wrote: Kinda off to the side, but while I was eating breakfast I was noodling around with lists, and I saw an odd thing. I was looking at if pods would help make Tervigon a "must take, to strong choice" again.
I feel like the Tyranid train is running away down the 40K track!
Can anyone recap what is/is not being released upcoming? So far I've been seeing stuff about formations, death from the skies, new models and lots of other stuff....is there a good place to get a running summary of CONFIRMED releases?
Hive guard + Spore Pod = Great Skimmer Killer (Even Wave Serpents)
I dropped 2 Units, with 2 DakkaFexs, have 2 Dakka Flyrants near just wrecked.
Yes its 165pts for 3, but Ignore Cover S8 was really good, Popped 2 Skimmers and then was a HUGE threat and took more than enough shooting away for my Fex's/flrants to get into good positions to really do some harm.
Its not ideal for all lists I understand, But against skimmer heavy lists I found it really good.
Honestly on the fighter ace I think 2/3rds of them are way to powerful for 35 points.
35 points for +1 wound is a bargain, however the ability to NEVER have to stay on the table for a turn is just too powerful. Come on 24, cast powers shoot, go off the table during their turn. Rinse and repeat, or depending on how everything went decide to just fly off.
Now unless we are missing something about it only applying while flying, or that they are required to remain flying all game. Now you can use it to charge in, hold them up through their movement phase then disappear
Leth wrote: Honestly on the fighter ace I think 2/3rds of them are way to powerful for 35 points.
35 points for +1 wound is a bargain, however the ability to NEVER have to stay on the table for a turn is just too powerful. Come on 24, cast powers shoot, go off the table during their turn. Rinse and repeat, or depending on how everything went decide to just fly off.
Now unless we are missing something about it only applying while flying, or that they are required to remain flying all game. Now you can use it to charge in, hold them up through their movement phase then disappear
And That! Is how we play Tyranids in the big city!
Timeshadow wrote: Long time lurker here on dakka (Thats what bugs do isn't it)
Just had to post this just so everyone can see the horror of the new rules
Total 1845(1850 if 2 Venoms insted of Malanthrope)
Is this as sick as it seems to be lol.
Oops forgot to add: This is 5 Fighter Ace Flyrants, 20 Warp Charge and all cheeze...... wow! Just to note Id never feild this unless somone asked for it but just wow!!
Welcome to the Tyranid Tactica, Timeshadow. Always good to see new Tyranid players to this thread.
Yeah, it gets pretty sic with the new formation. 5 flyrants with Fighter Ace is going to be stupid good.
I feel that your army can be improved upon. To me, a psychic choir here is not necessary. You really don't need all those warp dice as the primary focus of your flyrants won't really be to cast powers. Moreover, all those zoans don't really add much to the mobility of your army. They will basically be stuck in their deployment zone.
Rather, consider swapping out some of those zoans (ok, most of them) for lictors. I feel that lictors fit better in your list. One of the weaknesses of the list is that most likely you won't land your flyrants in order to keep them alive. And zoans will be hard pressed to stray too far from their deployment zones. Thus, you will have a tough time getting to the far objectives. Enter the lictor. He is a good disruption unit that can reach the far objectives, help to control your opponent's movements and can be used to guide in deepstriking rippers and mucolids.
P. 19 & 21 of the BRB strongly implies that ruins have levels.
Sadly my version does not seem to have the same pages as yours. But, some quotes about levels and rules interactions would be nice. 6th edition had a great explanations about levels.
It has something to do with unit coherency being 6" vertically when on different levels of terrain or ruins. I'll find quotes later when I have the time.
I'm just asking because I can't recall...but are not Zoeys Jump Infantry? So can't they Deep Strike? I've always thought they could, but never been tempted. But seeing them criticized for lack of mobility, causes me to jump to Zoeys defense!
Alas, they are not :/
@Timeshadow I would field that list against my friends Daemons, as he likes to play Daemon Factory (and we always be TFG against each other just to see which cheese tastes better)
Hive guard + Spore Pod = Great Skimmer Killer (Even Wave Serpents)
I dropped 2 Units, with 2 DakkaFexs, have 2 Dakka Flyrants near just wrecked.
Yes its 165pts for 3, but Ignore Cover S8 was really good, Popped 2 Skimmers and then was a HUGE threat and took more than enough shooting away for my Fex's/flrants to get into good positions to really do some harm.
Its not ideal for all lists I understand, But against skimmer heavy lists I found it really good.
Statistically, 3 Hive Guard should do 2.5 Hull points to a skimmer if they get to shoot at AV10. A Dakkafex will do 4.5 hull points in shooting, but the skimmer can Jink 1/2 of those away (Or 2/3 if they have a Jink bonus). So generally it is going to be more like 2.25. A dakkafex is better in a TAC list, but if you are Tailoring Hive Guard are probably the way to go.
Also just something to think about. What can other armies buy for 240 points (Hive Guard + Tyrannocyte) to deal with wave serpents?
NamelessBard wrote: While most of the unit write ups seem solid, I am very confused by the grades. For example, in no world should the tyranid prime be considered an A because it's cheap. It's not cheap.
Cheap is subjective. I use it in the literal sense. You're bringing the bare minimum HQ unit, and I rather pointedly said that your not bringing it for extreme murdering. If your bringing something cheap, it's because your putting the other 80+s you would have fielded on an HQ elsewhere.
But that's silly. A prime + 80 is a complete waste of points. You won't get better mileage out of those 80 points in something else than a flyrant.
Yeah the Prime is the most expensive HQ we have other than the Old One Eye really. I mean, Flyrant may cost you more points, but he's WORTH them. Tyranid Prime wastes a bunch of points on a crappy HQ. If you are trying to just take a barebones HQ, Deathleaper is 5 points more and a gakload better. On top of that, in no grading system should a Prime be an A. He's one of like the only 5 unplayably bad units left in the dex. He was barely even playable last dex, since then he has been nerfed harder than every single unit in the dex. If someone finished their review with him being an A grade unit I really think a little more thought could have been put into it
I fully agree with this and will take this into account when making the Tervigon/editing the Carnifex write ups. Not sure I agree with the definitions for each category but simplification looks better (and makes write ups easier).
Either way, something that is easy to reference that has everyone working off the same ranking is necessary.
This guy is a voice of wisdom. We all have a different definition of the tiering system and it makes the final result kind of irrelevant. I don't like your actual tiering since it's ranking units on their current popularity rather than power level, which is exactly what we are making these reviews not to do. But a standard for the grading would make sense
NamelessBard wrote: While most of the unit write ups seem solid, I am very confused by the grades.
For example, in no world should the tyranid prime be considered an A because it's cheap. It's not cheap.
Cheap is subjective. I use it in the literal sense. You're bringing the bare minimum HQ unit, and I rather pointedly said that your not bringing it for extreme murdering. If your bringing something cheap, it's because your putting the other 80+s you would have fielded on an HQ elsewhere.
But that's silly. A prime + 80 is a complete waste of points. You won't get better mileage out of those 80 points in something else than a flyrant.
I think of the bigger game in mind. If your playing up to a big tourney and you start fielding Flyrants in spades, your opponent will expect you to bring Flyrants. And lets just say he and a couple others decide to bring in plenty of AA units, he is going to be more than a little upset when you bring along more than enough ground pounding TMCs. 80 points. That is the difference between a Carnifex and a Dimachaeron. 80 points. That is a Tyrannocyte and change. 80 points. That can be the difference between a Biovore and an Exocrine. 80 points can go a long way when you spend it right.
So I was doing some thinking about the new options that we have with Leviathan (which I fully expect to be tournament-legal. You can't ban that without banning things like the Nemesis Strike Force, or Farsight Enclaves. And no one is even thinking about banning things like that).
Anyhow, something occurred to me (this is a trip of rationale through my mind coming up - you can skip to the end result of the list at the end if you want, but you'll miss out on some sparkling conversation). We have all been drooling over how many flying hive tyrants we can have (and don't get me wrong - I still need to wear a bib myself), but it's actually pretty sweet that we have nine troop slots in the Leviathan FOC. "But our troops suck! And they won't get obsec if they're in leviathan, so that's poopy!"
Well said, my hypothetical friend. However, we have access to a troop choice that isn't obsec anyway, so it has no penalty for being in leviathan, and is cheap enough to entertain some spam (oh yes, the Mucolid). 135 points gets you 9 strength 8 AP 3 blasts, or 9 units on the table if you miss/decide to miss intentionally. These blasts won't ignore jink or cover straight up, but they are barrage so some cover is definitely negated. Also, if they survive and get to assault, then they do actually ignore cover. And if they don't survive, then your opponent spent an entire turn shooting at a 15 point unit. Sounds pretty good to me. How would one list-build around these bad boys?
Well, you want a couple of things:
1) a reserves manipulator to get them to come in when you want - Hello bastion with comms relay
2) something to reduce randomness of scatter (I decided to give our friends the living homing beacon a try. That's right, LICTORS)
Incredibly, this is still 10 points short at 1840 haha. Couldn't quite fit that last Mucolid. Obviously, it's a re-imagining of Sean's list that won the GT (but with a couple less lictors). What you gain, though, by dropping the Lictor formation, I believe is much greater than what you lose. Not the least of which is a third flyrant.
NamelessBard wrote: While most of the unit write ups seem solid, I am very confused by the grades.
For example, in no world should the tyranid prime be considered an A because it's cheap. It's not cheap.
Cheap is subjective. I use it in the literal sense. You're bringing the bare minimum HQ unit, and I rather pointedly said that your not bringing it for extreme murdering. If your bringing something cheap, it's because your putting the other 80+s you would have fielded on an HQ elsewhere.
But that's silly. A prime + 80 is a complete waste of points. You won't get better mileage out of those 80 points in something else than a flyrant.
I think of the bigger game in mind. If your playing up to a big tourney and you start fielding Flyrants in spades, your opponent will expect you to bring Flyrants. And lets just say he and a couple others decide to bring in plenty of AA units, he is going to be more than a little upset when you bring along more than enough ground pounding TMCs. 80 points. That is the difference between a Carnifex and a Dimachaeron. 80 points. That is a Tyrannocyte and change. 80 points. That can be the difference between a Biovore and an Exocrine. 80 points can go a long way when you spend it right.
Unyielding, I don't mean to nit-pick your review of the Prime; however the idea that you're being "counter-meta" by not bringing Flyrants is incorrect. Most armies fail to bring AA, not the other way around. That's part of why flyrants work - because they effectively are counter-meta (except for Daemons causing people to want AA). Now, yes, it ABSOLUTELY is cheaper than a flyrant. By a ton. But when you ask yourself what you're actually getting for those points that you are spending, and it gets murkier. I could field a Malanthrope and accomplish much of what you're advocating with the prime for even less. I could skimp and just drop 50 for a Zoanthrope. If I NEED an HQ, Deathleaper is actually just as durable (if not more so) than the prime and still cheaper than the prime.
So for example, if you wanted to say to someone "if you want to get a super cheap HQ that is also a source of synapse and is surprisingly durable if you stick him in a squad of gribblies, then the Prime is a decent choice". However, you kind of have to add the caveat that it is still not a very good buy for the points. What you get with the model is not consummate with the points that you DO spend on him, regardless of what his opportunity cost is. Your final part of that quote, "80 points can go a long way when you spend it right" is absolutely true. And i think that the flip side of that coin (it won't go very far if you don't spend it right) is pretty much exactly how I would characterize the usage of a prime in most situations and armies.
I may be misreading your intent... but I dont think you can drop spore mines or mucloids on people. They only explode in assault. Unless Im missing the ball somewhere.
OrdoSean wrote: I may be misreading your intent... but I dont think you can drop spore mines or mucloids on people. They only explode in assault. Unless Im missing the ball somewhere.
You are not misreading my intent and I do appear to be incorrect. Oddly non-fluffy, but they appear to mishap if they go over another unit (and it's questionable if they are even able to target over a unit. Though of course, why would you if they don't explode?
I am interested to know if you think that Leviathan brings enough to the table to merit ditching the DLAB and running them through a combination of Leviathan and a normal Codex: Tyranids CAD instead. More small troops! More mines!
Personally... I think that army restrictions should basically be more like one main detachment and one secondary thing. I would group the CAD, and things like Real Space Raiders, Champions of Fenris and this new Tyranid formation, basically anything that looks like a full force org would be grouped under "Primary Detachments" and you could only take one of them. Along with that you could take one secondary detachment... either an allied detachment(the one that has only one of each slot) or a Formation or something else small and restricted.
I mean people rail against double CAD but thats basically what using a CAD plus a full force org detachment is. I also dont think there should be self ally.
Now since the stuff is legal for the moment its not something I would hold against someone at an event. I also dont fault players for searching for every advantage they can to compete.
That said I wont run double Cad and if asked I would try to push to a more restricted environment. As I think tough choices leads to more innovation and also makes for harder army building.
So the new Tyranid detachment doesnt offer anything to my #lictorshame army. It lacks a fortification slot, so no Bastion no comms. I would look at it as a strong building block to a 3-4 tyrant list(would get the 4th through the formation with the gargoyle bodyguard). But at the moment that list isnt something that appeals to me yet, though I can see the obvious strength of that many flyrants.
OrdoSean wrote: Personally... I think that army restrictions should basically be more like one main detachment and one secondary thing. I would group the CAD, and things like Real Space Raiders, Champions of Fenris and this new Tyranid formation, basically anything that looks like a full force org would be grouped under "Primary Detachments" and you could only take one of them. Along with that you could take one secondary detachment... either an allied detachment(the one that has only one of each slot) or a Formation or something else small and restricted.
I mean people rail against double CAD but thats basically what using a CAD plus a full force org detachment is. I also dont think there should be self ally.
Now since the stuff is legal for the moment its not something I would hold against someone at an event. I also dont fault players for searching for every advantage they can to compete.
That said I wont run double Cad and if asked I would try to push to a more restricted environment. As I think tough choices leads to more innovation and also makes for harder army building.
So the new Tyranid detachment doesnt offer anything to my #lictorshame army. It lacks a fortification slot, so no Bastion no comms. I would look at it as a strong building block to a 3-4 tyrant list(would get the 4th through the formation with the gargoyle bodyguard). But at the moment that list isnt something that appeals to me yet, though I can see the obvious strength of that many flyrants.
That is a fair point, and I think you're right that double CAD can be over the top. It's just becoming tougher and tougher to deny so many things that are starting to look like a CAD. You do also give up obsec, so it's not as though these types of armies aren't without drawbacks. But many times it's just starting to look more and more like a battle forged army that is unbound in pretty much every way. It's never been tougher to be a TO than it currently is, with the list of exceptions and "what ifs" and "is this a legal army" becoming longer than my arm. I think that, in the end, many will give in to GW's will (which is clearly to let people play whatever they want).
I think I've mentioned this before, but my group is going to set up a tournament that will literally allow anything that is legal by GW's standards (including all LOW, however many CADs you want, FW, etc) just to see what happens. An idea we're toying around with is giving out a first prize that is a smashed up trophy that is glued back together (for the "most broken army") and giving out prizes that are determined by methods other than your win/loss record or battle points. So people can play to win games but still have winnings even if they bring a fluffy army and lose all their games. Not really a typical tournament per se, but I think that it will be interesting to see what happens when all bets are off (hoping for the best but also acknowledging the potential for abuse)
Bio-Artefacts of the Tyranids Available to Hive Tyrants, Tervigons, Tyranid Primes, and Trygon Primes.
Spoiler:
•The Maw-Claws of Thyrax A cheap melee choice, when used to kill an enemy model they grant the user Preferred Enemy. Coming stock with Rending, it shouldn't be too hard to get this bonus.
•Hive Tyrant-
Usually you'll be taking Dual Devourers and wings, so there's usually no room for a melee weapon. On top of this, the Tyrant can take Old Adversary(reroll hits and wounds of 1 in CC) for 5 more points, and not have the stipulation of needing to kill a model with it. It should be focused on CC anyway(2 melee weapons), so the bonus to shooting is useless.
Grade:F
•Tervigon-
With such a low initiative, and only one set of melee weapons, Maw-Claws are generally useless on a Tervigon.
Grade:F
•Tyranid Prime-
A Tyranid Prime can make use of the cheap Maw-Claws. Only five more points than Rending Claws, they're a decent choice for a melee oriented Prime.
Loadout: Maw-Claws, Lash Whip and Bonesword, Flesh Hooks, Adrenal Glands.
Grade:B
•Trygon Prime-
Generally assumed to be a Melee Monster anyway, Maw-Claws are a good choice for a Trygon Prime. It doesn't lose it's shooting attack or dual weapon bonus by taking Maw-Claws so it can make full use of Preferred Enemy after killing an enemy model.
Loadout: Maw-Claws. No other biomorphs necessary.
Grade:A
•The Miasma Cannon Sporting two profiles, this Poisoned(2+) weapon is versatile when it comes to killing infantry. It can reach out and touch someone with a 36" blast, or get up close and personal with a template. Unfortunately, a lot of the time Tyranids don't need additional infantry killing weapons so this weapon is often left by the wayside.
•Hive Tyrant-
Again, the preferred loadout of 2x Dual Devourers means that you won't often see a tyrant with this bio-weapon, if at all. It could see some use as a dedicated infantry hunter spurting out two templates at a time.
Loadout: Wings, Miasma Cannon, Electroshock Grubs, Stranglethorn Cannon
Grade: D
•Tervigon-
Tervigons can find some use out of a Miasma Cannon, either sitting back and taking pot shots, or getting in close with dual templates.
Loadout:Electroshock Grubs, Miasma Cannon
Grade:C
•Tyranid Prime-
The only way to get a second bio-cannon in a group of warriors, the Miasma Cannon can give some extra "oomph" to a dedicated shooting unit either podding in, or camping a backfield objective.
Loadout- Miasma Cannon, and that's all a gunboat would need.
Grade:B
•Trygon Prime-
Trygon Primes are usually more assault oriented, but being an MC they can fire two weapons. The Miasma Cannon is the only way to get that second weapon, but at the cost of a dual melee weapon bonus. Adding more points to make an already expensive melee unit more shooty is generally not recommended.
Loadout- Miasma Cannon, and perhaps Toxin Sacs to carry on a Poison theme if wanted.
Grade: D
•Norn Crown This "Artefact" will add 6" to the synapse range of the bearer. This will stack with other bonuses to synapse, such as warlord traits, formation bonuses, and Dominion. If you're worried about synapse coverage, you may consider this option but it comes at a very steep cost. There are not any recommended loadouts specifically, because it doesn't directly benefit melee or shooting. It's more of a passive bonus.
Grade: D
•Ymgarl Factor The only way for Tyranids to upgrade to a 2+ save, and it only applies to melee, and not in consecutive turns. As a pure melee biomorph with marginal benefits, very expensive, and being somewhat random I can't recommend taking this Artefact.
Grade:F
•The Reaper of Obliterax A Lash Whip and Bonesword on steroids with a price tag to match, this can be a decent alternative to the stock LS/BS if you can spare the points. Granting +1 Strength and Shred plus the stock LS/BS benefits this can be recommended for melee-based Tyranids.
•Hive Tyrant-
Melee Tyrants are usually outshined by their Dakka brethren, but if you're dead set on taking one I would recommend this option if you have the points to spare. He will greatly increase the damage capabilities of the Tyrant.
Loadout- Reaper, Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Wings, Electroshock Grub
Grade:B
•Tervigon-
This is far too expensive to put on a creature with such poor CC stats. I don't recommend using this on a Tervigon.
Grade:F
•Tyranid Prime-
A melee Prime could make use of this option, bumping him up to a base strength of 6 and shred. Although, this is an expensive option and will make his cost skyrocket in comparison to other Tyranids- bumping him up over the base cost of a Hive Tyrant.
Loadout-Reaper, Scything Talons, Flesh Hooks, Adrenal Glands
Grade:C
•Trygon Prime-
Putting an expensive upgrade on an already expensive(some would say overcosted) model is usually not a good idea. The Trygon Prime can really benefit from the Reaper, but before any other upgrades he's close to 300 points, and he just doesn't have the survivability to really justify that.
Loadout- Reaper. That's really all there is to it.
Grade: D
I should note I'm not grading the unit, but the Artefact's usefulness to the unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, any recommendations regarding formatting are welcome.
Has there been discussion by you guys on what a reroll of IB check is? There really isn't a specific IB test.
Is it the Ld test? Or the roll on the chat? Or both?
My thought was Ld test. Some people were rabid that it was just the chart reroll.
seanster3000 on the hive just noticed something. In the fighter ace table, it says that units automatically pass an IB test, so it's definitely at least the Ld test part.
My thought was Ld test. Some people were rabid that it was just the chart reroll.
seanster3000 on the hive just noticed something. In the fighter ace table, it says that units automatically pass an IB test, so it's definitely at least the Ld test part.
Hey guys, I'm thinking of making a Tyranid/Dark Eldar Covens list, making use of their -1 to Leadership formations so that the Neurothrope/Hive Tyrants/Loleceptor can do more damage with their Psychic Powers.
Will post a draft list later, but what are your first impressions?
Trygon/Trygon Prime: My, how the mighty assault beast has fallen. The trygon went from first-class killer in the previous edition to a respectable but somewhat over-priced assault unit in this edition. Two main factors contribute to his downgrade. First is that he lost his ability to re-roll hits in close combat. The second is not really his fault but rather, changes to 7th Edition. The core rule changes have made him not as effective in dealing with vehicles as he used to be (back in the previous edition). Combine these nerfs with the typical Tyranid weaknesses in assault - lack of grenades and the lack of an Invulnerable save - and you have an assault unit that can only handle small to mid-size, non-Invulnerable units with any modicum of reliability. But pit him against slightly better assault units and you will see why he isn't as effective in combat as many of his peers.
Another item of note is the perception of him being over-costed. Now he has gone down by 10-pts from the previous edition and yet he is still considered over-costed. Why is that? That is because his cost has not come down nearly enough in comparison to some of the other TMC's (Tyranid monstrous creatures) in the book. Many of the other TMC's have gone down much more considerably in price. Moreover, those same units have gone up in quality. Units like the flyrant, carnifexes, mawlocs and even the tyrannofex have come down in cost considerably, and yet the units have only gotten better. So now you are paying substantially less for units that have gotten much more efficient in this edition. And then you have the trygon, who has come down in price only marginally but who has actually gotten worse in performance compared to how he was previously. No wonder why people are calling him over-priced.
Despite his shortcomings, the trygon can still contribute to a Tyranid army:
1. No matter how much he has gone down in efficiency, this guy is still an Assault threat to many units in the game. As such, he will command the attention (or resources) of the enemy to deal with.
2. Mobility. While not the fastest unit in the codex, his ability to deepstrike offers some flexibility to the army as well as the mobility to get him to where you want/need him. The fact that he is Fleet also makes him slightly faster than many other units in the codex and helps to increase his threat range (and therefore, his area-of-denial range). Also, his ability to deepstrike saves you the cost of having to get him a tyrannocyte spore pod, thus actually making him slightly cheaper than some of the other assault units in the codex.
3. Bullet magnet. He is still a bullet magnet that can and will draw a lot of enemy fire. He is also resilient enough to be able to absorb much of this firepower.
4. The trygon hole (Subterranean Assault). Subterranean Assault offers more tactical flexibility to the army, giving a ground-based Tyranid army more options for deployment than it would normally have. Now whether or not it is used all that much nowadays is another matter entirely.
The trygon prime is even less effective than its cheaper cousin. Offensively, he is no different from his lesser cousin. What you do get for the 40 extra points is a Synapse creature with Shadows in the Warp as well as double the number of shots on the trygon's gun (which nets down to an extra 3 hits for the trygon prime). Really, it isn't worth it. Rarely will his Synapse be effective as most of the time, he will die from enemy shooting/offense on the opponent's turn. Unless you really need his synapse on the field - maybe because you aren't taking enough/any flyrants - more often than not, you'd be better off going for the cheaper trygon over the trygon prime.
The raveners are a fast assault unit capable of deepstriking and quite killy once they get in contact with stuff. For the same cost as a warrior you get an upgrade to beast type and a bonus to initiative, while losing on Synapse and 1 point of armor.
This makes the raveners quite a glasscannon. Here is a little summary of the main aspects of raveners:
1) Fast: 12" movement, fleet and ignore terrain. Do i need to say more? This is the fastest non flying model in the tyranid codex.
2) Killy: High I, High WS, S4 with loads of attacks and upgradeable to rending claws for an honest price. These guys will pop transports, kill MSU and any non assault dedicated units with ease. With 7th and the new smash rules they can be a threat to many monstrous creatures.
3)Frail: With the same cost per wound of a warrior sporting only a 5+ and T4 will make you a juicy target for small weapons, while at the same time being a 3W T4 will also make you a good target of big weapons. In fact no matter what shoots at you, you will be it's favorite target 9 times out of 10.
4) Good but costly customization: Raveners can be upgraded to get rending claws, and if you field them you should always get those claws. Raveners can also get a small thorax weapon, which means that they get to be shooty without sacrificing the double melee set. Problem is that said thorax weapons cost really a lot, taking your raveners into a whole new level of glass cannons. Don't do that possibly, you will paint a big (bigger) target over their heads.
Raveners main role is quite straightforward: turn 1 advance behind LOS blocking terrain. Turn 2 get in there and break stuff.
Alternatively you can deep strike them and assault the following turn, which can be a necessary choice depending on the terrain pieces on the table. Don't multi assault, raveners are not models who can afford to get returning hits in melee, that Initiative and offensive stats are there for a reason. Use them as discardable one assault units, a min unit of raveners can easily make back it's points in a single assault. For the same reason avoid at all costs assaulting units in cover, you can't afford to give up the first strike.
By the previous description one would think that these guys could have a place into some list, so why are they so rarely seen? The answer is Shrikes. In the same FOC slot and for the same cost the Shrikes trade a bit of speed and one point of Initiative for synapse and better upgrades, including flesh hooks. They don't get thorax weapons, but they also don't get such high costs.
99% of the times shrikes are a better choice over raveners.
Like Shrikes having raveners on the field when there are Tau Smart Missiles around is a BAD idea.
Grades: D. They would be C without Shrikes, so if for any reason you don't want/can't field shrikes then these guys are C quality.
Red Terror
A big bad ravener with T5, S5 and the worst model in the Tyranid miniature range (sorry biovores). This guy is the only possible reason why you would consider raveners over shrikes. He comes at quite the cost, with each one of his wounds costing almost as much as a full ravener. He also has quite the tail, hitting at S6 and one of the most trollish rules in the game. If RT hits the same unit with 4 attacks in a turn excluding the tail (and he has 6 attacks at high WS on the charge) he can choose one model in base contact and remove him short of an invul save. While it doesn't work on models bigger than a terminator the way this is worded means that you are eluding a good chunk of defensive rules, with highlights on Look Out Sir! and Eternal Warrior. This guy is the last thing Marneus wants to fight. He also has the great role of being the meat shield for the other raveners in the unit. T5 is much harder to ID and if S10 is on the way then you can always Look Out Sir. He also has an important 4+. Remember though to Look Out anything that isn't S8, S9 or AP 5.
Too bad he can't take rending claws.
Having RT in your unit changes the role of the raveners from one shot unit to imposing unit. You can't simply throw him away at the first assault, if he is in you are pointing (and paying) at something more, like a reliable tank hunting unit (with that S6 tail and S5 attacks he pops tanks easily, and the unit has the mobility for it). Shroud granters are mandatory to protect this investment.
2 thing to remember:
1) Raveners have no grenades and RT is not exception.
2) He is not a synaptic model.
Good write up on the Raveners, and the Trygons too. It's sad about Raveners, they are such a cool model and not THAT bad on the field, they are just Shrikes -1 however so there is no point to them outside the Red Terror.
Since you mentioned Shrikes in your Raveners assessment, I think it's worth mentioning Mawlocs in your Trygon one. For almost the exact same price of 2 Trygons you can get 3 Mawlocs, who will just do everything better.
Woohoo! Finally got that essay out of the way Onto the Tervigon review. I've decided not to do a Red/Amber/Green analysis this time as other people aren't doing it, but if you guys prefer me doing it (as with the Carnifex review on pg 1) then post a comment and I will edit.
Spoiler:
Tervigon Background The Tervigon first arrived in 5th edition and was one of the best units in the Codex at that time. By simply paying for a minimum size unit of Termagants, you could take a Tervigon as a Troops choice, meaning it was the only Objective Secured Monster. In addition to this, it could also grant Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands to nearby Termagants simply by purchasing it for themselves. Better still, it could create Termagants by itself! They could also trade their Psychic Powers for Biomancy ones, making them even more durable. The only downside was if it died it usually took out nearby Termagants with it's Synaptic Backlash. For these reasons, it was common to see competitive lists spam Tervigons. When the new Codex arrived, everybody expected the Tervigon to be nerfed, but nobody expected it to be nerfed as hard as it was. It increased in points, but was nerfed harder still; it can no longer grant Adrenal Glands/Toxin Sacs to nearby Termagants, lost the ability to take Biomancy powers, doubled the range of it's Synaptic Backlash, increasing the number of Termagants it will likely take down.The biggest thing though, it now requires a maximum unit size of Termagants to be taken as a Troops choice, which is a considerable points investment, despite Termagants themselves getting cheaper. With 7th edition, it was nerfed still, since it was the only Monstrous Creature that could score in 6th. In 7th, it lost that niche. To make matters worse for the Tervigon, tournaments are ruling that any Termagants spawned by it do not have Objective Secured.
Competitive usage As explained in the background, it has several glaring drawbacks to taking a Tervigon. It must either pay a large points tax to be taken as a Troops choice, or compete with the Flyrant in the HQ slot. So where might a Tervigon fit in?
The Tervigon is not an offensive machine in combat, nor is it a gunline sharpshooter. It is strictly a support unit and should only be taken once in a competitive list. Here are some strengths of taking a Tervigon.
1) It can still generate Termagants, which can act as a roadblock or tarpit for dangerous units, allowing the rest of a Tyranid army to deal with other units and take control of the battlefield.
2) The Tervigon also has access to some unique Biomorphs not available to all Tyranid Monstrous Creatures. The most notable of these are Electroshock Grubs and Crushing Claws. This allows a Tervigon to act as a vehicle killer and deters Imperial Knights from charging for fear of D3 Haywire hits from Wall of Death. The Tervigon also has access to Bio-artifacts, see the Bio-artifacts section for recommended purchases.
3) The Tervigon is one of the most durable Tyranid Monstrous Creatures in the Codex and is the most durable Synapse unit that Tyranids have. This allows it to act as a Synapse beacon for your Ground forces and allows a Tyranid player to use their Flyrants and other fast options more aggressively.
4) The Tervigon is a Level 1 Psyker, which means it generates a WC for your other Psykers to use. It can also make use of some powers, such as Catalyst, to keep a Tyranid army and itself alive, allowing the army to continue function.
5) It can be given Objective Secured, meaning it can claim an objective right from under an opponents nose. This can be very useful in Maelstrom missions when you need to get an objective that is being held by a non-Objective Secured troop.
6) In smaller point games, it can create a larger percentage of points-worth of troops. This can give an advantage to a Tyranid player as they will, essentially, be using more points than the opponent.
Overall rating - C
The Tervigon is by no-means a unit not worthy of consideration in a competitive list, as it does something that no other unit in the army can. However, it is not the auto-include that it was in 5th edition and competitive lists can take other options over the Tervigon.
@jy2 Personally I think the Trygon Prime should have a slightly higher rating, it can also take Bio-Artifacts (e.g. Reaper of Obliterax gives +1 Strength and Shred, Maw-Claws give PE) so it can be kitted out to be a monster in CC. I don't think it's the best HS to take, but it does have that option available to it.
Also I'm going to use this list in a 1500 point game tomoroow
2x Carnifexes w/ 2x Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms each = 300 Exocrine = 170 Mawloc = 140
Tyrannocyte = 75 Tyrannocyte = 75 =1500
You may be wondering why I don't have a Venom/Malan. Well...I don't have the models. My Malanthrope arrives next week and I've always been allowed to proxy Venomthropes at my old gaming club as I do not like resin. Sigh.
In any case I should be able to report on how well Devilgants and Exocrines do out of Pods. Long live Nidbury Eggs!
Really good Tervigon write up. I will say that I expected the nerf, and actually expected it to be harder. It's a crappy unit now, but I was expecting Maleceptor tier to sell new models as much as possible.
Trygon Prime should definitely not be higher. Taking a kitted out Prime may be a more unique option, however it's just an even worse one. Take one Bioartifact and you are now Swarmlord tier in cost of points, except you are much worse, and the Swarmlord is already crazy overpriced.
I will say that the Ravener isn't not given as much credit as it should for purpose alone.
A Ravener is to a Shrike as a Hormagaunt is to a Termagant.
Shrikes should be shooting and can assault when need be...but Raveners should be moving forward always. This also means that they're even faster as they spend every turn running and are never sidetracked by shooting.
But why would you when the difference in speed is beyond minimal, Shrikes can have the same amount of attacks for the same price, and they get Synapse for free plus the option of upgrading into assault grenades + rending, as well as a bunch of other cool gak. They also provide cover saves much better, and project SitW, and save you the price of one other Synapse unit.
Other than a situational increase in speed, what exactly do Raveners have... Horms and Terms are very different
NamelessBard wrote: Has there been discussion by you guys on what a reroll of IB check is? There really isn't a specific IB test.
Is it the Ld test? Or the roll on the chat? Or both?
My thought was Ld test. Some people were rabid that it was just the chart reroll.
seanster3000 on the hive just noticed something. In the fighter ace table, it says that units automatically pass an IB test, so it's definitely at least the Ld test part.
You never really know with GW, but also note that the language for Ideal Mission Commander immediately below it specifically references re-rolling on the Warlord Traits table. The language is different, suggesting that it's a different thing.
I would swap the final grading on the Trygon and Trygon Prime, but generally agree with you there. A little insight to my thinking. The Trygon Prime is like a Tervigon that is way better at shooting and assault, but doesn't poop out gants. The Trygon is closer to a Hauspex that is better in assault and deep striking.
I will write a "View from the Maelstrom" on Raveners. Even in eternal war games, Ravener lists are a hard counter to many armies.
zerosignal wrote: So... the fighter ace rule is a bit broken on flyrants, right?
I mean - your opponent can't ever kill it?
It's marginally ambiguous, but I believe that you can only ever take one fighter ace. Even if you could take 3 or 4, I don't know that I would. Sure, it's broken when you pay 35 points for a 5/6 and very good when it's a 3/4 but it's also quite poopy when you pay 35 points to increase synapse range by 3 inches, which happens 1/3 of the time. So you have to increase the effective points cost by 33%, bringing it up for 47 points (roughly). Would you pay 47 points for a 50/50 chance at either an extra wound or the flying off table buff? I don't know if I would. I would gladly pay 50 to get the flying off the table thing every time, but that's the problem with GW. They seem to not want to give us predictability and try to introduce randomness at every turn (poor Daemons). In some ways, this is good game design because you will be able to play mirror matchups and have them turn out differently each time. But in other regards (like list-building consistency and tournament performance) it's not so great.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote: Good write-ups on Bio-artefacts and Tervigons.
I would swap the final grading on the Trygon and Trygon Prime, but generally agree with you there. A little insight to my thinking. The Trygon Prime is like a Tervigon that is way better at shooting and assault, but doesn't poop out gants. The Trygon is closer to a Hauspex that is better in assault and deep striking.
I will write a "View from the Maelstrom" on Raveners. Even in eternal war games, Ravener lists are a hard counter to many armies.
I definitely agree that Raveners are under-appreciated. They're not going to win tournaments, no, but talk to wraiths. You want to waste your strength 8 on my 3+ save? Be my guest - they're not as expensive as your missile launcher platform, I promise. You know, unless you're IG. You'll always be screening them with Gargoyles (or should be, anyhow) and if they kill your Malanthrope in 1-2 turns....well...you're going to have a tough game on your hands anyhow. My list for them goes with a wave 2 arrival of....well....my entire army. They will not be high on your opponent's target priority list and they will do work with those claws. I probably would give them a solid C
I definitely agree that Raveners are under-appreciated. They're not going to win tournaments, no, but talk to wraiths. You want to waste your strength 8 on my 3+ save? Be my guest - they're not as expensive as your missile launcher platform, I promise. You know, unless you're IG. You'll always be screening them with Gargoyles (or should be, anyhow) and if they kill your Malanthrope in 1-2 turns....well...you're going to have a tough game on your hands anyhow. My list for them goes with a wave 2 arrival of....well....my entire army. They will not be high on your opponent's target priority list and they will do work with those claws. I probably would give them a solid C
And C is what i gave them indeed, at least if shrikes were not there. Why what you said wouldn't work with shrikes? Except that they are a synapse source for said gargoiles?
Lots of normal Flyrant Ace Dakka with a good Warp charge pool. The 3 Venoms shroud most of the force with the Toxi coming in the pod. I teally like to use the HC to Outflank the Tervi and it's resilence copled with it's ability to make it's own bubble wrap has won me many games and its also another psychic
The raveners are a fast assault unit capable of deepstriking and quite killy once they get in contact with stuff. For the same cost as a warrior you get an upgrade to beast type and a bonus to initiative, while losing on Synapse and 1 point of armor.
This makes the raveners quite a glasscannon. Here is a little summary of the main aspects of raveners:
Frozocrone wrote: Woohoo! Finally got that essay out of the way Onto the Tervigon review. I've decided not to do a Red/Amber/Green analysis this time as other people aren't doing it, but if you guys prefer me doing it (as with the Carnifex review on pg 1) then post a comment and I will edit.
Tervigon Background
The Tervigon first arrived in 5th edition and was one of the best units in the Codex at that time. By simply paying for a minimum size unit of Termagants, you could take a Tervigon as a Troops choice, meaning it was the only Objective Secured Monster. In addition to this, it could also grant Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands to nearby Termagants simply by purchasing it for themselves. Better still, it could create Termagants by itself! They could also trade their Psychic Powers for Biomancy ones, making them even more durable. The only downside was if it died it usually took out nearby Termagants with it's Synaptic Backlash. For these reasons, it was common to see competitive lists spam Tervigons. When the new Codex arrived, everybody expected the Tervigon to be nerfed, but nobody expected it to be nerfed as hard as it was. It increased in points, but was nerfed harder still; it can no longer grant Adrenal Glands/Toxin Sacs to nearby Termagants, lost the ability to take Biomancy powers, doubled the range of it's Synaptic Backlash, increasing the number of Termagants it will likely take down.The biggest thing though, it now requires a maximum unit size of Termagants to be taken as a Troops choice, which is a considerable points investment, despite Termagants themselves getting cheaper. With 7th edition, it was nerfed still, since it was the only Monstrous Creature that could score in 6th. In 7th, it lost that niche. To make matters worse for the Tervigon, tournaments are ruling that any Termagants spawned by it do not have Objective Secured.
Thanks guys! Just added your reviews to the main tactica.
Frozocrone wrote: @jy2 Personally I think the Trygon Prime should have a slightly higher rating, it can also take Bio-Artifacts (e.g. Reaper of Obliterax gives +1 Strength and Shred, Maw-Claws give PE) so it can be kitted out to be a monster in CC. I don't think it's the best HS to take, but it does have that option available to it.
Also I'm going to use this list in a 1500 point game tomoroow
2x Carnifexes w/ 2x Twin-Linked Devourers with Brainleech Worms each = 300
Exocrine = 170
Mawloc = 140
Tyrannocyte = 75
Tyrannocyte = 75
=1500
You may be wondering why I don't have a Venom/Malan. Well...I don't have the models. My Malanthrope arrives next week and I've always been allowed to proxy Venomthropes at my old gaming club as I do not like resin. Sigh.
In any case I should be able to report on how well Devilgants and Exocrines do out of Pods. Long live Nidbury Eggs!
With regards to the trygon prime, I respectfully disagree. What the trygon/tprime really needs back are its re-rolls to hit. Reapers doesn't do all that much except make it much more bloated in price, taking him into near-Swarmlord territory (costwise). The benefits of the reaper is marginal at best. It helps against vehicles and other MC's, but against the majority of infantry units, all you are really paying for is shred and a bump in Initiative (which doesn't matter if you have to charge through terrain anyways). At 10-pts, the maw-claws is ok but still, it makes an already expensive beast even more costly with only marginal benefits. However, neither does anything to help increase its durability as it is just as easy to kill with shooting, only now, you've lost a signicantly more expensive unit. To me, the risk/rewards of most of the unique wargear are not worth it unless you can hide your unit in a larger unit (a la flyrant accompanied by 20-60 gargoyle bodyguards in the Skytide formation).
Good luck with your battle. Let us know how those units performed and how you did!
Lots of normal Flyrant Ace Dakka with a good Warp charge pool. The 3 Venoms shroud most of the force with the Toxi coming in the pod. I teally like to use the HC to Outflank the Tervi and it's resilence copled with it's ability to make it's own bubble wrap has won me many games and its also another psychic
Do you mean to have a toxicreine in there?
I'm fairly sure you can only have one Ace.
Tervigon or Toxicrine in a pod? You can choose at the start of the game.
Tervigon or 30 gaunts outflank?
I think you have way too many zoanthropes.
If you take off 2 Aces (there is three, right?), 2 zoanthropes and those extra gaunts thats 252 points. You can do a lot with those points.
I definitely agree that Raveners are under-appreciated. They're not going to win tournaments, no, but talk to wraiths. You want to waste your strength 8 on my 3+ save? Be my guest - they're not as expensive as your missile launcher platform, I promise. You know, unless you're IG. You'll always be screening them with Gargoyles (or should be, anyhow) and if they kill your Malanthrope in 1-2 turns....well...you're going to have a tough game on your hands anyhow. My list for them goes with a wave 2 arrival of....well....my entire army. They will not be high on your opponent's target priority list and they will do work with those claws. I probably would give them a solid C
And C is what i gave them indeed, at least if shrikes were not there. Why what you said wouldn't work with shrikes? Except that they are a synapse source for said gargoiles?
My Flyrants are enough synapse for the gargoyles and its cheaper to get Raveners with fleet. That's all I give them - rending claws and call it a day. I'm not saying that Shrikes don't have their benefits - they absolutely do - but I think Raveners are closer to shrikes than we give them credit for. If you call shrikes a C, Raveners would be (to me) a C - at worst
ductvader wrote: I will say that the Ravener isn't not given as much credit as it should for purpose alone.
A Ravener is to a Shrike as a Hormagaunt is to a Termagant.
Shrikes should be shooting and can assault when need be...but Raveners should be moving forward always. This also means that they're even faster as they spend every turn running and are never sidetracked by shooting.
I agree. The ravener and the shrike has somewhat different purposes, like hormagants and termagants. Shrikes serve somewhat as support units as well. Raveners are for pure offense. They are much faster than shrikes because they have no shooting (don't bother upgrading them with guns), are Fleet and ignore terrain due to being beasts. They are also slightly better offensively with more attacks and higher Initiative, thus making them better area denial units.
As for being a glass cannon, in my experience, they can actually be quite durable, especially if you take them in slightly larger units. That is because you can daisy-chain them to within venomthrope/malanthrope range to benefit from their Shrouded bubble. Now you can also do the same with shrikes. However, by doing so, you will take away some of their shooting as part of the unit will be out of range to shoot.
Sinful Hero wrote: I like the Amber/Red/Green style myself Frozocone, but it's probably not necessary.
I reviewed the Bio-Artefacts on up the page if anyone's interested.
Ok, thanks. I will add it to the main tactica later today. Got a full day of gaming coming up so won't be doing any updating until tonight.
ductvader wrote: I will say that the Ravener isn't not given as much credit as it should for purpose alone.
A Ravener is to a Shrike as a Hormagaunt is to a Termagant.
Shrikes should be shooting and can assault when need be...but Raveners should be moving forward always. This also means that they're even faster as they spend every turn running and are never sidetracked by shooting.
I agree. The ravener and the shrike has somewhat different purposes, like hormagants and termagants. Shrikes serve somewhat as support units as well. Raveners are for pure offense. They are much faster than shrikes because they have no shooting (don't bother upgrading them with guns), are Fleet and ignore terrain due to being beasts. They are also slightly better offensively with more attacks and higher Initiative, thus making them better area denial units.
As for being a glass cannon, in my experience, they can actually be quite durable, especially if you take them in slightly larger units. That is because you can daisy-chain them to within venomthrope/malanthrope range to benefit from their Shrouded bubble. Now you can also do the same with shrikes. However, by doing so, you will take away some of their shooting as part of the unit will be out of range to shoot.
They have the same cost and the same number of attacks, but it's okay let's stop debating this. After all i do own and play raveners.
Also, i have edited the guide with a Red Terror section.
I really like the hypertoxic node, even though it has an overkill of venomthropes. It's also nice for cheap loadout for a meleerant (if you should want one)
tag8833 wrote: Good write-ups on Bio-artefacts and Tervigons.
I would swap the final grading on the Trygon and Trygon Prime, but generally agree with you there. A little insight to my thinking. The Trygon Prime is like a Tervigon that is way better at shooting and assault, but doesn't poop out gants. The Trygon is closer to a Hauspex that is better in assault and deep striking.
I will write a "View from the Maelstrom" on Raveners. Even in eternal war games, Ravener lists are a hard counter to many armies.
Thanks tag!
My view of the TPrime is that he is a more expensive trygon but will die just as easily. Plus, he is a higher priority target than the trygon just because he is a "prime". Save your money on the prime and get a trygon + termagants/hormagants/ripper swarm/biovore/Fighter Ace upgrade/3 mucolids/1 additional shrike/etc. instead if you really want the offensive capabilities of the trygon.
ductvader wrote: I will say that the Ravener isn't not given as much credit as it should for purpose alone.
A Ravener is to a Shrike as a Hormagaunt is to a Termagant.
Shrikes should be shooting and can assault when need be...but Raveners should be moving forward always. This also means that they're even faster as they spend every turn running and are never sidetracked by shooting.
I agree. The ravener and the shrike has somewhat different purposes, like hormagants and termagants. Shrikes serve somewhat as support units as well. Raveners are for pure offense. They are much faster than shrikes because they have no shooting (don't bother upgrading them with guns), are Fleet and ignore terrain due to being beasts. They are also slightly better offensively with more attacks and higher Initiative, thus making them better area denial units.
As for being a glass cannon, in my experience, they can actually be quite durable, especially if you take them in slightly larger units. That is because you can daisy-chain them to within venomthrope/malanthrope range to benefit from their Shrouded bubble. Now you can also do the same with shrikes. However, by doing so, you will take away some of their shooting as part of the unit will be out of range to shoot.
They have the same cost and the same number of attacks, but it's okay let's stop debating this. After all i do own and play raveners.
Also, i have edited the guide with a Red Terror section.
Cool, thanks.
With regards to Attacks, raveners have 2 cc weapons so actually have +1 attack. With shrikes, you should keep the gun as it is a better option, so they only have 3 attacks.
Lots of normal Flyrant Ace Dakka with a good Warp charge pool. The 3 Venoms shroud most of the force with the Toxi coming in the pod. I teally like to use the HC to Outflank the Tervi and it's resilence copled with it's ability to make it's own bubble wrap has won me many games and its also another psychic
Do you mean to have a toxicreine in there?
I'm fairly sure you can only have one Ace.
Tervigon or Toxicrine in a pod? You can choose at the start of the game.
Tervigon or 30 gaunts outflank?
I think you have way too many zoanthropes.
If you take off 2 Aces (there is three, right?), 2 zoanthropes and those extra gaunts thats 252 points. You can do a lot with those points.
Carnifex, tyrannofex, another Tyrannocyte, Dima.
I dont know of any restriction on Fighter ace but if there is then yah that's a big change. I fixed the list made some typos for units. I like a big WC Pool for both using psychic powers and denying opps with WC my theory is go big or go home. I like to pod Toxi and HC outflank the Tervi.
Spoletta wrote: But that is a choice, if one would want to go full melee shrikes then they would have the same cost and same number of attacks.
The fact that they also have a better choice is a plus, but that doesn't give a spot to the raveners.
Personally, why one would want to "downgrade" his guns to scything talons is beyond me. The guns are the main advantage that shrikes have over raveners. If raveners had free guns, I'd give up the +1A in a heartbeat. Ok, I'll stop now.
I definitely agree that Raveners are under-appreciated. They're not going to win tournaments, no, but talk to wraiths. You want to waste your strength 8 on my 3+ save? Be my guest - they're not as expensive as your missile launcher platform, I promise. You know, unless you're IG. You'll always be screening them with Gargoyles (or should be, anyhow) and if they kill your Malanthrope in 1-2 turns....well...you're going to have a tough game on your hands anyhow. My list for them goes with a wave 2 arrival of....well....my entire army. They will not be high on your opponent's target priority list and they will do work with those claws. I probably would give them a solid C
And C is what i gave them indeed, at least if shrikes were not there. Why what you said wouldn't work with shrikes? Except that they are a synapse source for said gargoiles?
Fleet is what makes all of the difference. Raveners Have it for free. Shrikes do not. So Raveners are either cheaper or more reliable than Shrikes. I don't think they are better than Shrike, but they are nearly as good.
Raveners and Shrikes are two units whose viability in competitive situation was ended by Imperial Knights and Super Heavies. If I was garanteed to only run into a single Imperial Knight at a Tournament, I would run Shrikes and Raveners. It would be an unbalanced list, but no more unbalanced than flyrant spam.
Hey guys, guess what? Apparently we are famous outside this thread and DakkaDakka. Someone has been copying every review and throwing them up on the 4chan Tactica. Anyhow, if no one objects, I think I will take on Tyrant Guard and Spore Mines. We still need someone who can take on the remaining fliers and Forge World units however. I have very little experience with any of them.
Spoletta wrote: But that is a choice, if one would want to go full melee shrikes then they would have the same cost and same number of attacks.
The fact that they also have a better choice is a plus, but that doesn't give a spot to the raveners.
Personally, why one would want to "downgrade" his guns to scything talons is beyond me. The guns are the main advantage that shrikes have over raveners. If raveners had free guns, I'd give up the +1A in a heartbeat. Ok, I'll stop now.
Well, if I go to the trouble to toss in Flesh Hooks, I feel a lot safer losing the Devourer(s) They still have the equivalent of twin pistols, and Flesh Hooks is a CC mod, so why not go "all in".
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trindaros wrote: I really like the hypertoxic node, even though it has an overkill of venomthropes. It's also nice for cheap loadout for a meleerant (if you should want one)
I am feeling kind of warm towards it myself. Heck, I consider Venos a "must take", and now they do not take a precious Elite slot from me.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Hey guys, guess what? Apparently we are famous outside this thread and DakkaDakka. Someone has been copying every review and throwing them up on the 4chan Tactica. Anyhow, if no one objects, I think I will take on Tyrant Guard and Spore Mines. We still need someone who can take on the remaining fliers and Forge World units however. I have very little experience with any of them.
This is when I regret using the color coding scheme, my Carnifex entry looks like a wall of text on there
Still, it's awesome that we're famous and helping Tyranid players outside of Dakka.
Iechine wrote: Gargoyles? I can do Gargoyles. if no one called it before me.
Nope, your good. Think you can do the Harpy and Crone as well? Lech, your one of the only people I can think of that has run Skyblight recently in your Batreps.
Iechine wrote: Gargoyles? I can do Gargoyles. if no one called it before me.
Nope, your good. Think you can do the Harpy and Crone as well? Lech, your one of the only people I can think of that has run Skyblight recently in your Batreps.
Also, if you want to make changes to your unit write-ups, just post the complete re-write on this thread or PM me and I will make the corrections/edits (more like copy and paste them ) onto p. 1 of the main tactica.
HQ
Hive Tyrant - jy2 Deathleaper
Old One Eye
Swarmlord
Tervigon - Frozocrone Tyranid Prime - Unyielding Hunger Tyrant Guard
Rising Leviathan II Endless Swarm
Incubator Node
Living Artillery Node
Skyblight Swarm
Synaptic Swarm
Rising Leviathan III Bioblast Node
Living Tide
Subterranean Swarm
Tyrant Node
Wrecker Node
Shields of Baal Skytyrant Swarm
Neural Node
Hypertoxic Node
Spore Field
Skytide
Hive Fleet Leviathan
BIOMORPHS/WARGEAR
Let me know which you want to volunteer for and I will update this list. Or you could just post the review of the unit directly onto this thread and I will update the list and also the main tactica on p.1.
Solidcrash wrote: Can somebody do termagant? I am unsure which better - twinlink spingant or dakkgant..
It depends on what you are referring to. Spinegants and Spikegants are actually on par with each other against certain targets. Devilgaunts are in the top bracket for use. I don't think I have ever heard of someone actually buying webgants however.
I'm really interested in what you come up with there. I was considering volunteering for Swarmlord, but didn't think I had a representative understanding of him.
Just make sure you stress the fact that even if he isn't quite the beatstick he used to be, he still operates as the perfect synaptic linchpin of a ground based attack.
ductvader wrote: I use Swarmlord in every other game. The real challenge for me will be staying objective.
I don't use Swarmlord in TAC lists. I use him if I'm doing something highly narrative like campaigns, I use him when I'm trying to nerf myself so that I can win without making my opponent feel bad, and I use him as my version of lictor Shaming, if someone is getting a bit too arrogant, I bring Swarmlord with a list that is otherwise tailored to table them.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Just make sure you stress the fact that even if he isn't quite the beatstick he used to be, he still operates as the perfect synaptic linchpin of a ground based attack.
I got this down pat, no worries. I'm pretty much all ground force in Tyranids...no gargs, no harpies, no crones...though I may use the occasional Flyrant, Sky Slashers (rarely), or Shrikes.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Just make sure you stress the fact that even if he isn't quite the beatstick he used to be, he still operates as the perfect synaptic linchpin of a ground based attack.
I got this down pat, no worries. I'm pretty much all ground force in Tyranids...no gargs, no harpies, no crones...though I may use the occasional Flyrant, Sky Slashers (rarely), or Shrikes.
Maybe you should do Sky slashers then. I think you're the first person I've heard of using them.
Thanks to all the volunteers. Lots of interesting stuff here.
luke1705 wrote: good write-ups on Bio-artefacts and Tervigons.
I would swap the final grading on the Trygon and Trygon Prime, but generally agree with you there. A little insight to my thinking. The Trygon Prime is like a Tervigon that is way better at shooting and assault, but doesn't poop out gants. The Trygon is closer to a Hauspex that is better in assault and deep striking.
I will write a "View from the Maelstrom" on Raveners. Even in eternal war games, Ravener lists are a hard counter to many armies.
I definitely agree that Raveners are under-appreciated. They're not going to win tournaments, no, but talk to wraiths. You want to waste your strength 8 on my 3+ save? Be my guest - they're not as expensive as your missile launcher platform, I promise. You know, unless you're IG. You'll always be screening them with Gargoyles (or should be, anyhow) and if they kill your Malanthrope in 1-2 turns....well...you're going to have a tough game on your hands anyhow. My list for them goes with a wave 2 arrival of....well....my entire army. They will not be high on your opponent's target priority list and they will do work with those claws. I probably would give them a solid C
For starters, Raveners have 5+ armour not 3+. Secondly, your write up is just a great explanation of why Shrikes are decent, since they are everything Raveners are +1. Raveners aren't that bad on their own merits, but they just completely outclassed.
Iechine wrote: Gargoyles? I can do Gargoyles. if no one called it before me.
Nope, your good. Think you can do the Harpy and Crone as well? Lech, your one of the only people I can think of that has run Skyblight recently in your Batreps.
Unfortunately I've got a lot of work this evening so I may only get one done, sorry.
Gargoyles: (by Iechine)
Gargoyles are a highly mobile version of Termagants, occupying a fast attack slot. While they are often compared to their groundpounding brothers, they have many abilities that set them apart and make them a worthwhile choice in a Tyranid force.
1. Highly mobile. As jump infantry, Gargoyles flow over the battlefield 12" at a time, ignoring terrain all together. In addition, your broods are able to deep strike.
2. Cheap tarpit unit to the extreme. With the ability to exchange attacks for a poisoned (6+) attack that forces a Blind check if it hits, Gargoyles have the ability to get in and stay in with any opponent. For a little more than the cost of a Dakkafex you
can have 30 fast moving wounds on the field.
3. IB: Hunt. Whereas Termagants tuck tail and run and Hormagaunts inflict wounds on each other, Gargoyles hit the deck and wait it out. Though not fearless, you're less likely to be pulling your hair out when IB checks dont go your way.
Gargoyles appear in most competitive lists, and with good reason. Although they are 50% more expensive than Termagants, their highly mobile in an edition where mobility is paramount. They can easily keep pace with the Flyrant, and its their
ability to synergize with the most popular HQ choice that makes them a mainstay. Together with a Venomthrope's shrouding buff, Gargoyles serve as prime meatshields for Tyrants when going 2nd. They protect your Hive Tyrants and then surge
forward, covering up to 18" on turn one and becoming an almost immediate threat to anything on the ground. While its generally considered wiser to take bodies over upgrades, Gargoyles can be given either Adrenal Glands (Better) or Toxin Sacs (Worse).
With broods up to 30, an upgraded Swarm is a death sentence for AV10.
Gargoyles where pushed further into the competitive field when the Skyblight formation gave them Objective Secured and the ability to regenerate. As Skyblight was (and possibly remains) the most competitive Tyranid detachment, Gargoyles have become
all the more a constant in Tyranid bug lists where wings reign supreme. Their fragile 6+ save is most often buffed with shrouding from a Venom or Malanthrope, which makes these broods surprisingly durable. They add considerably to the threat overload principle
that Tyranids rely on. Shots at your Gargoyle broods protect your Tyrants, but if left ignored a Gargoyle brood can mount a highly effective turn 2 assault.
Gargoyles A, AG Gargoyles B, Poisoned Gargoyles C (Diminishing returns)
Spoletta wrote: But that is a choice, if one would want to go full melee shrikes then they would have the same cost and same number of attacks.
The fact that they also have a better choice is a plus, but that doesn't give a spot to the raveners.
Personally, why one would want to "downgrade" his guns to scything talons is beyond me. The guns are the main advantage that shrikes have over raveners. If raveners had free guns, I'd give up the +1A in a heartbeat. Ok, I'll stop now.
Which is just one more way that they are worse than Shrikes, Shrikes can do both the Ravener load out and their own for the same price. In no way do the Raveners have an advantage WIH their extra attack since it's matchable by Shrikes for free, and as you said it's the worse option anyway
Ravagers should definitely be a "C" rating versus "D." They are not great, but they have some uses. Beast is really good and should be recognized as such.
Also, does the rating for pyrovores seem high to you guys? Currently, their ratings seem inflated compared to the other units in the tactica.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Just make sure you stress the fact that even if he isn't quite the beatstick he used to be, he still operates as the perfect synaptic linchpin of a ground based attack.
I got this down pat, no worries. I'm pretty much all ground force in Tyranids...no gargs, no harpies, no crones...though I may use the occasional Flyrant, Sky Slashers (rarely), or Shrikes.
Maybe you should do Sky slashers then. I think you're the first person I've heard of using them.
Agreed. I've never seen a sky slasher in person, and never felt the urge to proxy them.
Good review. A few things that you didn't mention.
1) Assault Chaining. Because of their large bases and good speed they can really, really do complicated multi-assaults to kill things like riptides.
2) Overwatch eating. If you've got expensive stuff planning to assault, gargoyles can get into position and eat overwatch for the pricier stuff.
3) Enemy Mobility limitations. I've used 20 gargoyles to completely surround an Imperial Knight giving it no place to go for a turn. This is also awesome against Stunned fliers.
4) Board control. 20-30 gargoyles have a giant footprint. They can conga line all over the place contesting multiple objectives at once.
One last observation. I think in many ways gargoyles are the natural enemy of Riptides. If you get 20 gargoyles into a multi-assault with 3 riptides and keep them in syanpse, they can hang out there all game long neutralizing a giant portion of the enemy army. Throw a Tyrant, some raveners or a Carnifex into one flank or the other, and you've got a decent chance to sweeping advance kill them.
One last observation. I think in many ways gargoyles are the natural enemy of Riptides. If you get 20 gargoyles into a multi-assault with 3 riptides and keep them in syanpse, they can hang out there all game long neutralizing a giant portion of the enemy army. Throw a Tyrant, some raveners or a Carnifex into one flank or the other, and you've got a decent chance to sweeping advance kill them.
Actually they have an easier time with stuff like fexes, since riptide are immune to blind and will always hit at 4+, but yes sweeping in a multi assault is one of the few ways to take out a riptide cost efficiently.
One last observation. I think in many ways gargoyles are the natural enemy of Riptides. If you get 20 gargoyles into a multi-assault with 3 riptides and keep them in syanpse, they can hang out there all game long neutralizing a giant portion of the enemy army. Throw a Tyrant, some raveners or a Carnifex into one flank or the other, and you've got a decent chance to sweeping advance kill them.
Actually they have an easier time with stuff like fexes, since riptide are immune to blind and will always hit at 4+, but yes sweeping in a multi assault is one of the few ways to take out a riptide cost efficiently.
Riptides are immune to blind? Since when?
Plus even a not blind riptide with 3 attacks hitting on 4's will take an entire game to get through 10 gargoyles.
Saythings wrote: Riptides are immuned to blind and night fighting affects due to their suit. Built in Blacksun Filters in almost every suit the Tau own. :(
Wow. I just asked my 2 most common Tau opponents. Both of them denied that it granted immunity to blind, but when I looked it up you are correct. I have played that rule wrong 100 times.
Saythings wrote: Riptides are immuned to blind and night fighting affects due to their suit. Built in Blacksun Filters in almost every suit the Tau own. :(
Wow. I just asked my 2 most common Tau opponents. Both of them denied that it granted immunity to blind, but when I looked it up you are correct. I have played that rule wrong 100 times.
Being a Tyranid Player first, and a Space Marine player second, it helps to know what you're fighting against. Hard to build a list without knowing what counters it. When Tau was on top last edition, I wanted to run some Scout Bikers for their blind launcher. I learned the hard way that almost every tau model is immuned to blind. xD
One last observation. I think in many ways gargoyles are the natural enemy of Riptides. If you get 20 gargoyles into a multi-assault with 3 riptides and keep them in syanpse, they can hang out there all game long neutralizing a giant portion of the enemy army. Throw a Tyrant, some raveners or a Carnifex into one flank or the other, and you've got a decent chance to sweeping advance kill them.
Actually they have an easier time with stuff like fexes, since riptide are immune to blind and will always hit at 4+, but yes sweeping in a multi assault is one of the few ways to take out a riptide cost efficiently.
Riptides are immune to blind? Since when?
Plus even a not blind riptide with 3 attacks hitting on 4's will take an entire game to get through 10 gargoyles.
They have Blacksun Filters, almost everything Tau does. As you said they Riptide still easy to tarpit, and getting anything Tau in CC is going to be a good thing for Tyranids, so it's not a big issue.
So I see most everyone taking Tyrannocyte's bare with no upgrade to Venoms/Barbs. If I'm going to be mostly taking them with Carnifex/Dima/maybe Zoan & Neuro brood should I use the Venom upgrade? I have a few lists that use 2-3 pods, so it could be a 50-75 point difference.
Noctem wrote: So I see most everyone taking Tyrannocyte's bare with no upgrade to Venoms/Barbs. If I'm going to be mostly taking them with Carnifex/Dima/maybe Zoan & Neuro brood should I use the Venom upgrade? I have a few lists that use 2-3 pods, so it could be a 50-75 point difference.
Well, it kinda depends on your list. Is the Str 6 AP 4 with five blasts worth 25pts over fifteen Str 5 AP 5 shots at BS 2? Or would those points be better spent elsewhere, say a Venomthrope, or half of a Carnifex?
Noctem wrote: So I see most everyone taking Tyrannocyte's bare with no upgrade to Venoms/Barbs. If I'm going to be mostly taking them with Carnifex/Dima/maybe Zoan & Neuro brood should I use the Venom upgrade? I have a few lists that use 2-3 pods, so it could be a 50-75 point difference.
So far I think so. VCs aren't scary to our MCs except for the Faileceptor. 25 points to turn a unit from "Useful against light infantry at 18" to useful against Infantry, and Vehicles at 36" is a viable upgrade, and the Tyrannocytes are tough. They don't die often, but they can't assault, so they make great objective campers, and the VC's let them contribute while they do that. It also complicates your opponent's vehicle movement which helps you flank them with flyrants.
I have to admit, I really like the Shield of Baal e-book. Some cool/fun/interesting rules, fun fluff.
Now please can you poke holes, critique or just comment on what was originally going to be a fairly simple triple flyrant dual CAD list; CAD: Flyrant, Devs, Egrubs (Warlord - go go re-roll on strategic) 2x Rippers, DS 1x Lictor 1x Malanthrope
All of this for 1500pts. I guess it could be light on gross total scoring bodies but so far that would be my only concern. Lots of options. Fun? Competitive? Also trying to make best use of the command benefits whilst still getting my re-roll for book traits. *HFD = Hive Fleet Detachment
Noctem wrote: So I see most everyone taking Tyrannocyte's bare with no upgrade to Venoms/Barbs. If I'm going to be mostly taking them with Carnifex/Dima/maybe Zoan & Neuro brood should I use the Venom upgrade? I have a few lists that use 2-3 pods, so it could be a 50-75 point difference.
So far I think so. VCs aren't scary to our MCs except for the Faileceptor. 25 points to turn a unit from "Useful against light infantry at 18" to useful against Infantry, and Vehicles at 36" is a viable upgrade, and the Tyrannocytes are tough. They don't die often, but they can't assault, so they make great objective campers, and the VC's let them contribute while they do that. It also complicates your opponent's vehicle movement which helps you flank them with flyrants.
I don't know, I think those 15 shots (5 hits) at S5 into a vehicles rear armour is pretty decent, two Cytes can kill a transport pretty easily.
I don't think there is a right and wrong answer here, both options are great and it depends on what you want for your build. More points left over for more bodies is never the wrong answer, but sometimes you can say a bunch of S6 blast spam might really be what I want. Neither option is leagues ahead of the other.
Verviedi wrote: Which formation is best against GK PaladinStar?
LAN, Skyblight, or Other?
Depends on what spells they have. If they are walking across the table, LAN can deal with them easily. If they have GOI, you want to go for Skyblight.
Another, more off the wall option is Endless Swarm. Devourer Gants will gun them down through weight of fire, and don't really fear their attacks. Poison Hormagants can drown them in bodies and force piles of saves.
One final option. A new formation called "Skytyrant Swarm". A Hive Tyrant Swinging away with Reaper of Obliterax surrounded by 20+ ablative gargoyle wounds will make short work of the paladins. And like gants, Gargoyles don't care about Force weapons. Just be ware of Draigo and his psych-out grenades, and 3++. Make sure you Tryant doesn't make base on the Charge so that Draigo can't challenge him out. Eventually Draigo will kill the Tyrant if he gets force off.
While it would make for a cool mucolid, it looks like it's probably only half the size of the real mcCoy.
I bit. Got me 5 of the models off of ebay. JY2 was right, they aren't tall enough. So I put them on a small flight stand. After all they can assault fliers, so theoretically they can fly. It isn't 100% accurate, but it is a pretty decent conversion that nobody is going to give me crap about.
Would you guys suggest running the Living Artillery Node and having the Exocrine (plus a synapse provider of course) in Tyrannocytes dropped on the enemy's head?
Journeyman351 wrote: Would you guys suggest running the Living Artillery Node and having the Exocrine (plus a synapse provider of course) in Tyrannocytes dropped on the enemy's head?
Deep striking an Exocrine is ok. Not great, mainly because the Exocrine doesn't belong in assault, and has good range, and thus a chance to contribute on turn 1.
You definitely don't need to worry about tyrannocyting in a synapse provider. Flyrants can provide front court synapse. And if that isn't good enough you can take a couple Shrikes which can start on the board or deep strike in for free.
Just had an amazing battle against Geoff "InControl" and his tournament Tyranids. This was a rematch. The last game, he won when his barbed hierodule stepped on both of my Necron bargelords and he rolled a 6, thus removing both of them. I then failed both of the 4+ return-to-play saves as well.
This time, Geoff ran the new Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment + Primary detachment. His list:
It was another tense battle. I did manage to take out all 3 flyrants at the end of the game. However, Geoff also took out 6 out of my 7 AV13 vehicles, including all 3 of my bargelords, and 2 out of 3 flyers. Moreover, his barbed hierodule survived without so much as a scratch on him. I made 1 crucial mistake in the game, and that was I forget to take an objective at the end of a crucial turn.
Look out for the battle report, coming out soon from Frontline Gaming!
Journeyman351 wrote: Would you guys suggest running the Living Artillery Node and having the Exocrine (plus a synapse provider of course) in Tyrannocytes dropped on the enemy's head?
NO!
Do so and your exocrine won't benefit from the warriors in the formation (he has to be within 12" of the warriors).
Gargoyles are a highly mobile version of Termagants, occupying a fast attack slot. While they are often compared to their groundpounding brothers, they have many abilities that set them apart and make them a worthwhile choice in a Tyranid force.
1. Highly mobile. As jump infantry, Gargoyles flow over the battlefield 12" at a time, ignoring terrain all together. In addition, your broods are able to deep strike.
2. Cheap tarpit unit to the extreme. With the ability to exchange attacks for a poisoned (6+) attack that forces a Blind check if it hits, Gargoyles have the ability to get in and stay in with any opponent. For a little more than the cost of a Dakkafex you can have 30 fast moving wounds on the field.
3. IB: Hunt. Whereas Termagants tuck tail and run and Hormagaunts inflict wounds on each other, Gargoyles hit the deck and wait it out. Though not fearless, you're less likely to be pulling your hair out when IB checks dont go your way.
Thanks Iechine. Added!
ductvader wrote: I've been using sky slashers ever since I made them to be a fluffy bodyguard for my Parasite of Mortrex.
I'll take them too, should hit all three tonight when I can sit down with my book.
Ok, you've got them!
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Hey guys, guess what? Apparently we are famous outside this thread and DakkaDakka. Someone has been copying every review and throwing them up on the 4chan Tactica. Anyhow, if no one objects, I think I will take on Tyrant Guard and Spore Mines. We still need someone who can take on the remaining fliers and Forge World units however. I have very little experience with any of them.
Gotta check it out. I've been out all day and just got back.
You're on a roll, Hunger. Tyrant Guard and Spore Mines for you!
Solidcrash wrote: Can somebody do termagant? I am unsure which better - twinlink spingant or dakkgant..
I'll do Termagants. But I might not get to it until Monday.
Termies for taggy!
Sinful Hero wrote: Honestly I don't think it will hurt if two different people review the same unit- if you feel you have something else to add might as well post it.
Right.
If someone feels the need to write a review on a particular unit - even though that unit has already been reviewed - then go for it! I won't turn down someone's hard work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the updated Tyranid Update assignment list.
There is also a link to it on p. 1 of the main tactica.
Or you can find it on p. 240. If you don't remember, then check out the title.
NOTE - I won't be updating this post. Instead, any updates will be done to the list on p. 240 so check there for the most recent review assignments.
TYRANID UPDATE LIST
Thanks guys. Here is a list of units to write up.
Also, if you want to make changes to your unit write-ups, just post the complete re-write on this thread or PM me and I will make the corrections/edits (more like copy and paste them ) onto p. 1 of the main tactica.
HQ
Hive Tyrant - jy2 Deathleaper
Old One Eye
Swarmlord - ductvader Tervigon - Frozocrone Tyranid Prime - Unyielding Hunger Tyrant Guard - Unyielding Hunger
Rising Leviathan II Endless Swarm
Incubator Node
Living Artillery Node
Skyblight Swarm
Synaptic Swarm
Rising Leviathan III Bioblast Node
Living Tide
Subterranean Swarm
Tyrant Node
Wrecker Node
Shields of Baal Skytyrant Swarm
Neural Node
Hypertoxic Node
Spore Field
Skytide
Hive Fleet Leviathan
BIOMORPHS/WARGEAR
Bio-artefacts - Sinful Hero
Let me know which you want to volunteer for and I will update this list. Or you could just post the review of the unit directly onto this thread and I will update the list and also the main tactica on p.1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sinful Hero wrote: Bio-Artefacts of the Tyranids Available to Hive Tyrants, Tervigons, Tyranid Primes, and Trygon Primes.
Also, any recommendations regarding formatting are welcome.
As are any other recommendations...
Added, and I changed to format just slightly to make it a little easier to read.
Noctem wrote: So I see most everyone taking Tyrannocyte's bare with no upgrade to Venoms/Barbs. If I'm going to be mostly taking them with Carnifex/Dima/maybe Zoan & Neuro brood should I use the Venom upgrade? I have a few lists that use 2-3 pods, so it could be a 50-75 point difference.
I think it's too soon to say. A basic "meta" rule for Tyranids is "don't upgrade" so I think it will depend of what you see the most in your area. I see one down side to the upgrades being scattering onto your own units, and a Venom can wound a Carnifex 50/50 and that would be embarrassing (don't worry too much, you'll most likely save ) I think my instinct is to spend the points on something else though.
Noctem wrote: So I see most everyone taking Tyrannocyte's bare with no upgrade to Venoms/Barbs. If I'm going to be mostly taking them with Carnifex/Dima/maybe Zoan & Neuro brood should I use the Venom upgrade? I have a few lists that use 2-3 pods, so it could be a 50-75 point difference.
I think it's too soon to say. A basic "meta" rule for Tyranids is "don't upgrade" so I think it will depend of what you see the most in your area. I see one down side to the upgrades being scattering onto your own units, and a Venom can wound a Carnifex 50/50 and that would be embarrassing (don't worry too much, you'll most likely save ) I think my instinct is to spend the points on something else though.
Depends on your list. I want to drop 2x20 termaguants so i'am not going to use scattering barbed strangles. Without those termagaunts I would go for 1 barbed strangler tyrannocyte for the "pinning" effect. I'am not going to pick vennom cannons because shooting takes to long ( I hate thunderfire cannons..takes forever) with not much damage output.
jy2 wrote: Just had an amazing battle against Geoff "InControl" and his tournament Tyranids. This was a rematch. The last game, he won when his barbed hierodule stepped on both of my Necron bargelords and he rolled a 6, thus removing both of them. I then failed both of the 4+ return-to-play saves as well.
This time, Geoff ran the new Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment + Primary detachment. His list:
)
Heck I might get to use my Winged Assassin again! 
Especially because I might get stuck with Mind Eater. 
Thogh I might use Winged Assassin in a Toxic node... 
A little more emphatic then I usualy am, but well reasoned 
1 
My Malanthrope arrives next week and I've always been allowed to proxy Venomthropes at my old gaming club as I do not like resin. Sigh. 
(don't worry too much, you'll most likely save