jy2 wrote: You're on a roll, Hunger. Tyrant Guard and Spore Mines for you!
I like that. On a roll has a much better ring than "too much time on his hands". Anyhow, Expect them both tonight after I get off work. I have to put a bit more work into the Tyrant Guard one, but it should be fairly well done.
Tequila Ranger wrote: I've seen the term "Lictor Shaming" a few time in this thread, could someone gimmie the rundown on what that is, tia?
It's the name of the list OrdoSean used to win a tournament- he took the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood and and a few more lictors. The discussion is a few pages back.
I will continue to practice SL with barb combo but from the 4 games I played yesterday I can tell you Preferred Enemy on the barb for the entire game is worth it's weight in gold. Considering most of the time his wound need is anything but a 1 and rerolling 1's is cool (LOL) he is going to do 6+ wounds a volley on average.
ALSO! I want to ask you guys... Should I drop e grubs on 2 of my 3 flyrants to afford Ace of the Sky on my WL flyrant? I am just looking for feedback on the idea. I can't drop points elsewhere as these are the only upgrades I have and otherwise I have minimum points in troops. Lmk!
jy2 wrote: Just had an amazing battle against Geoff "InControl" and his tournament Tyranids. This was a rematch. The last game, he won when his barbed hierodule stepped on both of my Necron bargelords and he rolled a 6, thus removing both of them. I then failed both of the 4+ return-to-play saves as well.
This time, Geoff ran the new Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment + Primary detachment. His list:
assuming 3 flyrants, SL + malanthrope to buff heirduyle? first legit useful deployment of swarmy i've seen since the new codex dropped.
it's a strange new world we're living in.
It isn't just preferred enemy. It's a +1 on reserves (I have 3 mucloids and 3x3 rippers) it is a CC badass with instant death attacks and it is a 3 WC psycher that has additional buffs necessary in a nid list.
I used to run the dima as my barb body guard but the swarmlord for a bit more is a much more effective force multiplier
Alright guys, I signed up for the Venomthrope and Malanthrope a few days back, and it's the weekend now, so it's time for me to deliver! I really think these two reviews had to be written together, because they are very similar in role.
Venomthrope:
When the Tyranid codex first came out back in January, the Venomthrope jumped back into competitive lists thanks to the massive boosts it provides to the army. When the book came out, the Venomthrope stood out as perhaps the best choice in the codex, second only to the always-popular Flyrant. Venomthropes are rather cheap, costing as much as a Rhino and a Meltagun. The Venomthrope's value comes from the 6" bubble of shrouded it supplies to all Tyranid units with a model in range. Tyranids as an army have historically struggled with being shot off the board before they had a chance to advance, but the Venomthrope guarantees that any model in terrain will have at least a 3++ cover save and very often a 2++. Also, any FMC that happens to jink near a Venomthrope will benefit from a 2++ cover save. Compared to the alpha-strikes that we used to suffer from, Tyranids are now much more durable than they were before, and with Venomthrope support, Tyranids can comfortably elect to second without being afraid of losing half of their army turn 1.
Of course, the Venomthrope does have it's weaknesses. Most noticeably, the fact that it's not very tough. At Toughness 4 with 2 wounds and only a 5+ save, a Venomthrope is very easy to focus down if your opponent has ignores cover or decent firepower. After all, even in ideal cover a Venomthrope is only as hard to kill as two Terminators. Fortunately for Tyranid players, there are several ways to help this. The first is to deploy him out of Line of sight, like the inside of a ruin, or to buy a Fortification. Due to the rules of "Area of Effect" powers, the 6" shrouded bubble of a Venomthrope is measured from the hull of a Bastion that it is embarked in. This not only increases the area of effect tremendously, it also helps the Venomthrope become much more durable. Few opponents are able to kill a Bastion at long range turn 1, especially when there are several MCs running towards them. As a bonus, all models on top of or behind a Bastion will get at least a 4++ cover save, which then increases to a 2++, making the Bastion a great firing position for the likes of Biovores. The one downside to this approach is that the Venomthrope is completely immobile, and so you will have to disembark eventually to continue to provide cover.
Secondary roles: Although the Venomthrope is best used as a support beast to help the rest of your swarm survive, it is also handy in assault when times are desperate. Venomthropes have 2 attacks each base and strike at Initiative 7, with a 2++ poison and so can threaten many targets. But, they are very fragile in CC so I would personally never send them into combat alone, and never with anything tougher than a Tactical squad.
Grade: B+ (on foot), A- (in a Bastion)
Mlanthropes:
The first thing to understand about the Malanthrope is that he is a Forge World unit, and therefore it is polite to gain permission before bringing him in a game. The second thing to understand is that he is an absolute monster of a unit, better than a Venomthrope in every way and arguably the best unit available to us. Malanthropes, like Venomthropes, provide a 6" bubble of shrouded that will help protect your units. But, for a nickel less than 2 Venomthropes, a Malanthrope has 4 wounds, Toughness 5, and a 3+ armor save, and best of all is a Synapse creature. On the one hand, he is the ultimate backfield support unit because he is a single cheap package to provide both Synapse and shrouded, and is cheaper and tougher than a Venomthrope and Zoanthrope combined. Thanks to this increased toughness, a Malanthrope can fill the roles a Venomthrope can't, by advancing upfield alone and still being tough, thanks to his improved stats and Regeneration. It's also a common tactic to buy two single Malanthropes and run them upfield to share the love of special rules they provide.
Malanthropes are durable enough that a Bastion isn't required, but it still is not a bad idea to spread out his Shrouded and Synapse Area of Effects. However, I would plan on getting outside the box late game and moving upfield to help support the army. And excellent option here is to buy an escape hatch for the Bastion so that the Malanthrope can shoot 18" upfield when he chooses to get out. Like his little brother the Venomthrope, a Malanthrope is quite handy in Close Combat,. Thanks to fleet, he is a little easier to get there, and his improved stats means he will hold up better in combat, while he has three 2+ poison attacks at initiative 5. The Malanthrope also has a host of special rules, he may issue challenges, but is not a character and so may not be challenged. In a challenge though, on a roll of 4+ he limits his enemy to half of his attacks, and initiative one thanks to his grasping tail. Better yet, if the Malanthrope is part of a combat that destroys an enemy unit, the Mal may not sweeping advance but instead gives Preferred enemy to any Tyranid in his synapse range. While a Malanthrope alone is not a great close combat unit, he certainly has nothing to fear and is wonderful in a multi-assault with other units to help him out. I think it's important not to lose sight of his role, as a support bug, but the Malanthrope is still useful in a ton of situations, making him the best unit for his points in the whole Tyranid arsenal.
Iechine wrote: If Swarmlord is in reserves, do I still get to add +1 to reserve rolls?
Yes, it's 'whilst the Swarmlord is alive'.
Also, if I join Deathleaper to a unit of say Gargoyles, do they not scatter either? Also, do they gain stealth?
The Deathleaper isn't an Independent Character, so he can't join units. (For future reference, the Tyranid Prime is the only Tyranid Independent Character there currently is.)
This is my cut throat, refined down no nonsense tournament list. I have to order a Dimachaeron which is no big deal as I need another to paint and sell, and I have to figure out (like everyone else) what to do for the Mucolid situation.
Critique appreciated.
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Venomthrope
Dimachaeron w/Tyrannocyte
11 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Bastion w/Comms
The Gargoyles will have to really take the 2" spacing to the max to do their job. The bigass bastion helps alleviate the screening issue some.
Turn two is really rough on the opponent. Four flyrants speaks for itself, but the Mawlocs and Dima cannot be ignored. The Mucolids will arrive in threatening positions all around.
iNcontroL wrote: It isn't just preferred enemy. It's a +1 on reserves (I have 3 mucloids and 3x3 rippers) it is a CC badass with instant death attacks and it is a 3 WC psycher that has additional buffs necessary in a nid list.
I used to run the dima as my barb body guard but the swarmlord for a bit more is a much more effective force multiplier
Swarmy with no guard? Sorry, haven't watched the latest batrep.
You probably play more VS knights than most. PE on the Heirodule add about 1 extra hit on average. How often were Egrubs helping you beat knights?
My first thought would be to drop one of the ripper squads. In BAO style, I would think that 2 DS rippers plus the rest of your army would be enough to claim 3 objectives and contest at least another.
iNcontroL wrote: It isn't just preferred enemy. It's a +1 on reserves (I have 3 mucloids and 3x3 rippers) it is a CC badass with instant death attacks and it is a 3 WC psycher that has additional buffs necessary in a nid list.
I used to run the dima as my barb body guard but the swarmlord for a bit more is a much more effective force multiplier
I actually like the list, for what it's worth Geoff. But I don't think it's finished. Fors starters, let's be realistic - it IS just P.E. that you are taking the Swarmlord for. +1 to reserves matters very little you have a grand total of like just over 100 pts in reserves, and it doesn't matter hugely what turn they come in either. You can't justify the Swarmlords cost through this. And for everything else, Dima is cheaper, more durable, and puts out the same damage. Also, you are running the biggest glass cannon in the game (57 points for each T6 3+ wound! holy gak, our average MC pays <30) by walking it up the board since you can't afford to pod it and miss out on a turn of p.e., AND in a list where it is absolutely the least durable thigh in the army, sitting next to 3 Flyrants and a Barby. On the plus side, it's hard to find a model that benefits more from P.E. than a Heirodule, however I don't like it's chances currently.
I think it's best to accept that this just "doesn't quite work" in conjunction all together. 3 Flyrants, Swarmlord, and the Barby, something's gotta go, and while I like what Swarmy has the potential to do, considering how easy it is to kill and kite means that realistically it's doing a lot less for the points. I think just going for a Dima instead,mans using the remaining points to take that flyer Ace you wanted is definitely gonna be one step forward for your list.
I just finished a game with Swarmlord. His biggest problem is lack of fleet. Turn 1 he ran 2". Turn 2 he ran 1" Turn 3 he failed a 5" charge. Turn 4 he failed another 5" charge. Turn 5 he made a 3" change and killed a bunch of stuff. Miraculously, the game ended turn 5 with a perfect 15 - 15 point tie, but if Swarmy had fleet it would have been a blowout.
tag8833 wrote: I just finished a game with Swarmlord. His biggest problem is lack of fleet. Turn 1 he ran 2". Turn 2 he ran 1" Turn 3 he failed a 5" charge. Turn 4 he failed another 5" charge. Turn 5 he made a 3" change and killed a bunch of stuff. Miraculously, the game ended turn 5 with a perfect 15 - 15 point tie, but if Swarmy had fleet it would have been a blowout.
Yeah, Adrenal/Fleet is practically mandatory on a CC big bug (or a CC bug in general )
tag8833 wrote: I just finished a game with Swarmlord. His biggest problem is lack of fleet. Turn 1 he ran 2". Turn 2 he ran 1" Turn 3 he failed a 5" charge. Turn 4 he failed another 5" charge. Turn 5 he made a 3" change and killed a bunch of stuff. Miraculously, the game ended turn 5 with a perfect 15 - 15 point tie, but if Swarmy had fleet it would have been a blowout.
Yeah, Adrenal/Fleet is practically mandatory on a CC big bug (or a CC bug in general )
tag8833 wrote: I just finished a game with Swarmlord. His biggest problem is lack of fleet. Turn 1 he ran 2". Turn 2 he ran 1" Turn 3 he failed a 5" charge. Turn 4 he failed another 5" charge. Turn 5 he made a 3" change and killed a bunch of stuff. Miraculously, the game ended turn 5 with a perfect 15 - 15 point tie, but if Swarmy had fleet it would have been a blowout.
Yeah, Adrenal/Fleet is practically mandatory on a CC big bug (or a CC bug in general )
Or a tyrannocyte
I'll try Swarmy in a Tyrannocyte eventually, but I don't like the idea. He has no shooting, and so can run every turn. That gives him a turn 3 charge. He has pretty decent survivability if you give him Tyrant guard (which you should).
Putting him in a Tyrannocyte mainly alters your opponent's target priority. It is more simple on Turn 1 without the looming threat of Swarmlord on the table. On turn 2 when he comes in, he Launches to the top of the target priority, and he does so without shrouding or Tyrant Guard, and so he dies. Unless you are doing a null deployment, it just seems like a waste of points. You could put a Dimacharon in a pod, and drop him in the opponents backfield to die on the turn he comes in, and that is 95 points less, and 1 extra wound.
If you are doing a Null deployment, and trying to bring in everything major in Tyrannocytes or deep strike or outflank, I worry that Tyrannocytes are too expensive to reach critical mass of offensive power.
Well, I'm going to be honest. I promised 2 reviews but I have quite a bit of work to do. I completely rewrote them to be more insightful and I am going to have to release the Tyrant Guard later on this Sunday after I can finish it up to be better.
Spore Mine Cluster
Spore mines are one of the most strategic assets available in the Tyranid codex, though in the most bizarre ways.
1. The spore mine received a massive points decrease.
2. They lost random control dice.
3. They lost Orbital Deployment but gained Floating Death.
Before we go in, we need to look at the drastic changes in the playstyle of these little used orbs of exploding death. While in the previous book, these actually were fairly expensive for a full cluster, they are now half the cost, with more than twice the use. In the old codex, Tyranid players used to consider these to be highly unreliable due to the fact that much of the control was completely random, and most players based their potential on one ability; Orbital Deployment. You were able to deploy these things as soon as deployment zones were chosen, but before even units were placed, which allowed you to blockade enemy fortifications or favorable areas. Unfortunetely, upon a single detonation of a group placed in unit coherency, you could set off the entire change and almost assuredly give up a first blood if the opponent deployed in vehicles. However, others realized that there is no rule forcing a player to deploy in coherency allowed the more clever players to deploy them farther out to avoid daisy-chained explosions and deny more area while minimizing losses to the unit. Remember, units only take wounds, even outside of unit coherency, based on how many of them can be reached by weapons. This meant that 3 full units, set even 4-6 inches apart with alternating models from the units could leave your opponent frustrated when he is forced to waste multiple units fire when he can only take out 1-2 a volley per unit with them widely scattered. Now, I want you to keep this in mind to a degree going into these new tactics, because they will play a fairly important part of the new Spore Mine Cluster.
So, lets cover movement. Spore mines have a set 3" movement. This is great for dealing with unit coherency, because it allows you to pull several tricks if you choose not to deep strike them, and use them in a defensive area. If you spread out your units outside of 2 inch coherency, say 3-5 inches, you have a guaranteed safety line to get them to snap into coherency for an assault. If you're conga-lining them and an opponent deep strikes nearby, he may decide to avoid firing into the mines, thinking that in such a disfunctional deployment, they serve no threat. However, a quick 3 inch movement snap can bring them all back into function and allow you, a good assault roll pending, to suddenly drop a massive pie plate since according to the Floating Death rule, they do not assault in close combat, but the entire cluster detonates, and you simply choose that closest spore mine. This gives them a far greater presence in your backfield since, if you deep strike, you are forced to cluster them in base to base contact and a toughness value of 1 will not save them.
Now, lets move onto the main reason you will bring these models. A spore mine is guaranteed a S4 AP4 Ignores Cover large blast, but can go up to a S9 AP 4 blast with a full cluster behind it. This means that a full brood is a threat to any multi-wound T4 characters without EW. A lucky hit could end them before they begin, and that isn't a bad thing when you consider that you paid only 30 points for them. They also can be fairly threatening to tanking, given that they have a good chance to damage any ground vehicles. Their use increases when they charge into combat. In assault, the wounds taken by spore mines do not count towards resolution, even if they detonate, which gives you extra chances to potentially catch your opponent several wounds short in assault and force them to fall back.
The last benefit to the spore mine is that they can be produced by so many other Tyranids as free additions to the army. Biovores, Harpies, and Sporecysts can all produce Spore Mine clusters in spades, and with each first blast, you create d3 spore mines which can give you potentially S4-6 large blasts that can assault on the turn of creation since they do not count as having been deploying, etc.
Mawloc
Mawloc
Carnifex w/ BLDevs with Tyrannocyte w/ Venoms
Bastion w/ Comms Relay
Comes out to 1843 so 7 points under right now. I know it's only got the Venomthrope and two Flyrants on the table on turn 1, but I feel like with the right placement I'd be ok.
I've played well over 100 games at this point (yeah I know) with the barb and I agree he is a "glass cannon" of sorts.. but he has taken my nids to the next level. Him + malanthrope is the cornerstone of the best nid list in my opinion unless you are going skyblight or 3+ flyrants + something at this point. I have also found one of his biggest weaknesses is CC badasses. Obviously ignores cover monster hunter or low AP stuff will decimate him but that is true with all nids so at that point you have to be a good general and do things like thin out the top threat / paroxy them down etc.. so with that CC weakness I have found him paired with a Dima is essential.. as a bodyguard. The dima adds the extra scare with it's WS and Initiative being so high and the access to insta death. With the SL I am getting the same things minus fleet which does suck but you gain 3 powers, potentially MORE instant death attacks and a guy who is actually more resilient in CC. I played 4 games with the PE on the barb and I can tell you it isn't as simple as rerolling 1 miss. On average sure but then to wound it goes from 1/6 lost wounds to 6/6 (potentially) and it has saved bad rolls and made good rolls better etc.. it was brutal.
I came 1 game short of winning a GT with a list like this in my first year of competing of which I have now improved upon it Maybe you are right but I will see after extensive play testing and eventually T-Shift, Guardian Cup and LVO in january/feb
I get the impression that that post was a response to mine, however you must have just skimmed what I said, because I didn't call the Barby a glass cannon at all, I said the Swarmlord is a glass cannon, hes 300 points of 5 walking, close combat oriented glass cannon wounds, and in your list you have him walking up the field, on a board where he is the easiest thing to kill in your entire list, with absolutely nothing supporting him. This doesn't strike me as a good combination, you may have just taken him as a guard for the Barby but he needs a guard of his own or he's just meat, and if really for the role you want to use him as, honestly you'd be better just swapping him for Tyrant Guard, for the same price of that Swarmlord you get 6 of them, which gives you 12 wounds instead of 5, thats a 250% increase to durability and still does everything your list wants except the Preferred Enemy, which you aren't going to be getting a lot of the time anyway because that Swarmlord is gunna melt. It's a trade off but strikes me as a critical one, because as it stands that Swarmlord reads to me like a 300 point firstblood sacrifice. Just my opinion, doesn't have to be Tyrant Guard tho im convinced that Swarmlord is the wrong choice, but I'm not arguing the effectiveness of the Barby + Malanthrope here I think that's pretty damn good.
No he doesn't walk up the board and no he doesn't have nothing to support him.. he has a malanthrope giving him a 2+ save as long as I am not on a barren board.
He CAN walk up the board but with range 48' on the barb I don't particularly need to when I have DS rippers/flyrants for mobility. He is a backfield unit where I place 1-2 of my own objectives and towards the end of the game they can go mid board to threaten board control etc.
He is 1 wound shy of the defensiveness of my Dima and is not the target priority typically speaking.. 3 flyrants in your face and a linchpin malanthrope grab all the attention.
But Dima is 2/3's the price, deploying a Swarmlord backfield seems unlikely you'll ever have much control over the combat he sees, which is pretty important for 200 pts. Wouldn't it be a 3+ save if hes sticking to cover as well, assuming the Malanthrope is dead? But regardless, if he has a cover save so does anything else you could bring, making him still the standout weak point to push on for your army. I don't think that's ever a good idea with a 300 pt model.
SHUPPET wrote: But Dima is 2/3's the price, deploying a Swarmlord backfield seems unlikely you'll ever have much control over the combat he sees, which is pretty important for 200 pts. Wouldn't it be a 3+ save if hes sticking to cover as well, assuming the Malanthrope is dead? But regardless, if he has a cover save so does anything else you could bring, making him still the standout weak point to push on for your army. I don't think that's ever a good idea with a 300 pt model.
honestly a cheaper way of going about the PE is to put 2 Malanthrope on a pod and sending them off to fluke a win in CC... lol
SHUPPET wrote: But Dima is 2/3's the price, deploying a Swarmlord backfield seems unlikely you'll ever have much control over the combat he sees, which is pretty important for 200 pts. Wouldn't it be a 3+ save if hes sticking to cover as well, assuming the Malanthrope is dead? But regardless, if he has a cover save so does anything else you could bring, making him still the standout weak point to push on for your army. I don't think that's ever a good idea with a 300 pt model.
honestly a cheaper way of going about the PE is to put 2 Malanthrope on a pod and sending them off to fluke a win in CC... lol
But then they won't be anywhere near the Barby to give him the Preferred Enemy.
SHUPPET wrote: But Dima is 2/3's the price, deploying a Swarmlord backfield seems unlikely you'll ever have much control over the combat he sees, which is pretty important for 200 pts. Wouldn't it be a 3+ save if hes sticking to cover as well, assuming the Malanthrope is dead? But regardless, if he has a cover save so does anything else you could bring, making him still the standout weak point to push on for your army. I don't think that's ever a good idea with a 300 pt model.
honestly a cheaper way of going about the PE is to put 2 Malanthrope on a pod and sending them off to fluke a win in CC... lol
But then they won't be anywhere near the Barby to give him the Preferred Enemy.
Malanthrope with Norn Crown? Plus isn't there a goofy Infiltrate, Spore fortress that adds 6" to Synapse...
what? Malanthrope needs to be a part of a successful combat and then it.. and it alone gives the preferred enemy bubble so once it dies that bubble is gone. Also I would need to pod a barb over there as well or run him alone (no malanthrope) etc.. it's a really bad idea o_O
Shuppet: It's interesting in each of your points you describe bad play as reason why not to use him. All of a sudden I am running up the field, not with a malanthrope and he is 300 points instead of 285. You also down play WC 3 and his better survive-ability in CC which is something they both want to do. 3+ / 4++ is way better than the +1 wound 3+ save where they both have the same initiative, swarmlord has 1 more WS and 1 less base attack (no rampage though) BUT all his wounds do instant death. I ran the dima in over 100 games I love him.. my favorite model but with 4 HQ's (3 of which are flyrants) the body guard role is better suited for the swarm lord. If the dima had 12' move, flesh hooks or any kind of built in FNP or ++ save I'd agree with you but atm the force multiplier of the SL for +85 points over the dima is sick. I actually play tested it btw.. a bunch. I kinda gather you are just speculating >_<
Essentially, now that we have turn 2 deep strike focus, you can either fish for the Warlord trait, get a bastion w/comms, or go with Swarmlord.
So looking at it that way, Swarmlord is no long an overcosted pig, but a 195pt death dealer with heavier psychic and buffs, he just has the comms relay ability sort of built in. Drop in in a Tyrannocyte and you have sort of the same effect as a Dima, he's still billy badass to an extent but with frightening close combat potential.
I think a list like this would cater to use of the Swarmlord, and I'd definitely practice a few games with it.
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devourers and electro
Flyrant w/Devourers and electro
Flyrant w/Devourers and electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
You can still use Mawlocs instead of the expensive Tervigon if you like, but a drop podded Swarmlord and Tervigon are quite the threat factor for a lot of lists and they synergize well.
Theres no great reason to have a walking Swarmlord though. I get that he can get great cover saves but we can all raise our hands Im sure if I ask who has lost a Tyrant with 2+ cover saves turn 1 before.
iNcontroL wrote: what? Malanthrope needs to be a part of a successful combat and then it.. and it alone gives the preferred enemy bubble so once it dies that bubble is gone. Also I would need to pod a barb over there as well or run him alone (no malanthrope) etc.. it's a really bad idea o_O
Shuppet: It's interesting in each of your points you describe bad play as reason why not to use him. All of a sudden I am running up the field, not with a malanthrope and he is 300 points instead of 285. You also down play WC 3 and his better survive-ability in CC which is something they both want to do. 3+ / 4++ is way better than the +1 wound 3+ save where they both have the same initiative, swarmlord has 1 more WS and 1 less base attack (no rampage though) BUT all his wounds do instant death. I ran the dima in over 100 games I love him.. my favorite model but with 4 HQ's (3 of which are flyrants) the body guard role is better suited for the swarm lord. If the dima had 12' move, flesh hooks or any kind of built in FNP or ++ save I'd agree with you but atm the force multiplier of the SL for +85 points over the dima is sick. I actually play tested it btw.. a bunch. I kinda gather you are just speculating >_<
Are there any batreps of your army including the Swarmlord? The only ones I've seen on Frontline Gaming include the Dimachaeron (sweet paint scheme btw)
iNcontroL wrote: what? Malanthrope needs to be a part of a successful combat and then it.. and it alone gives the preferred enemy bubble so once it dies that bubble is gone. Also I would need to pod a barb over there as well or run him alone (no malanthrope) etc.. it's a really bad idea o_O
Shuppet: It's interesting in each of your points you describe bad play as reason why not to use him. All of a sudden I am running up the field, not with a malanthrope and he is 300 points instead of 285. You also down play WC 3 and his better survive-ability in CC which is something they both want to do. 3+ / 4++ is way better than the +1 wound 3+ save where they both have the same initiative, swarmlord has 1 more WS and 1 less base attack (no rampage though) BUT all his wounds do instant death. I ran the dima in over 100 games I love him.. my favorite model but with 4 HQ's (3 of which are flyrants) the body guard role is better suited for the swarm lord. If the dima had 12' move, flesh hooks or any kind of built in FNP or ++ save I'd agree with you but atm the force multiplier of the SL for +85 points over the dima is sick. I actually play tested it btw.. a bunch. I kinda gather you are just speculating >_<
Are there any batreps of your army including the Swarmlord? The only ones I've seen on Frontline Gaming include the Dimachaeron (sweet paint scheme btw)
Not yet! I use him against JY2 in a bat rep due out as soon as Reece gets around to it. I played 3 games since that and he did really well so I plan on playing more with him atm.
iNcontroL wrote: what? Malanthrope needs to be a part of a successful combat and then it.. and it alone gives the preferred enemy bubble so once it dies that bubble is gone. Also I would need to pod a barb over there as well or run him alone (no malanthrope) etc.. it's a really bad idea o_O
Shuppet: It's interesting in each of your points you describe bad play as reason why not to use him. All of a sudden I am running up the field, not with a malanthrope and he is 300 points instead of 285. You also down play WC 3 and his better survive-ability in CC which is something they both want to do. 3+ / 4++ is way better than the +1 wound 3+ save where they both have the same initiative, swarmlord has 1 more WS and 1 less base attack (no rampage though) BUT all his wounds do instant death. I ran the dima in over 100 games I love him.. my favorite model but with 4 HQ's (3 of which are flyrants) the body guard role is better suited for the swarm lord. If the dima had 12' move, flesh hooks or any kind of built in FNP or ++ save I'd agree with you but atm the force multiplier of the SL for +85 points over the dima is sick. I actually play tested it btw.. a bunch. I kinda gather you are just speculating >_<
You've gotta give Shuppet a break about the Swarmlord. You can find quotes of his where he says the Swarmlord may not only be the worst model in our codex, but the worst model in the entire game. He's just having a hard time hearing a great tournament player is finding a role for the Swarmlord in his list. You're shattering his world-view.
Shuppet: It's interesting in each of your points you describe bad play as reason why not to use him. All of a sudden I am running up the field, not with a malanthrope and he is 300 points instead of 285. You also down play WC 3 and his better survive-ability in CC which is something they both want to do. 3+ / 4++ is way better than the +1 wound 3+ save where they both have the same initiative, swarmlord has 1 more WS and 1 less base attack (no rampage though) BUT all his wounds do instant death. I ran the dima in over 100 games I love him.. my favorite model but with 4 HQ's (3 of which are flyrants) the body guard role is better suited for the swarm lord. If the dima had 12' move, flesh hooks or any kind of built in FNP or ++ save I'd agree with you but atm the force multiplier of the SL for +85 points over the dima is sick. I actually play tested it btw.. a bunch. I kinda gather you are just speculating >_<
Once again I feel like you skimmed my post a little too fast and responded to arguments that I didn't even make. When did I say he wouldn't have a Malanthrope?
Why is 285 so different to calling it 300? It's a pretty minimal difference and definitely not the core argument of anything I'm saying, and Swarm just sits at that price range
I didn't play down anything to do with it's survivability in CC, I'm quite clearly talking about its squishiness before it makes it into CC.
How am I describing bad play? Unless I'm mistaken you have one of two options, walking it across the board or sitting it in your deployment zone. Assuming you aren't going to leave it in your DZ all, as he doesn't have GoI or Wings I'm pretty sure that means he's walking across the board.
I don't really have a response to this because everything you just argued against is not my point of view or what I'm actually saying, I think you may have misinterpreted my post a little..
And no I'm not speculating. I've played with all the models in your list. Unless you are talking about the exact composition of your list, then yes, I'm speculating, as is everyone else.
At the end of the day, all that aside, I'm just thinking that Swarmy is the thinnest way you could possibly spend those 285 points. I'm saying in a list with EXTREME durability otherwise (3 Flyrants, a T8 GC and practically nothing else), a 5 wound walking MC with zero ablative wounds attached is going to be the easiest thing to kill by a wide margin, and it really hurts when that kill takes down just under 300 points with it.
I'm just making a remark about the Swarmlord in this list tho I do like the list otherwise and love the style and do agree that Barby needs some support. Just my opinion on your list since it was posted is all.
You've gotta give Shuppet a break about the Swarmlord. You can find quotes of his where he says the Swarmlord may not only be the worst model in our codex, but the worst model in the entire game. He's just having a hard time hearing a great tournament player is finding a role for the Swarmlord in his list. You're shattering his world-view.
Oh ur still trolling me? Thought you might be over this grudge by now. Without using any supporting logic, you take the side of "tournament players say its right so how dare you contest it!", without being capable of applying a scrap of supporting logic or self-composed opinion to your statements. You can keep arguing things just because you don't like me - or maybe you can start actually sharing the logic behind your opinions as to why I'm actually so incorrect all the time. Like, you know - a strategy discussion. Like, without the snide personal comments. You know. I'm backing every post and statement I make about a model or a play with supporting logic - people ARE allowed to give their own opinion even if it is different to that of a tournament player - is there any need for this sort of rude attitude in a strategy discussion thread?
Chill out man, we will soon have SL batreps for a basis of discussion. He could still be a crappy model, but remember that we were already shamed once, so i'm putting theory crafting in second line now.
Yeah, bat reps oughta be good! Love seeing Barbys in action regardless they have the potential to decimate with good rolls.
If the Swarmy survives and makes it to combat with a Heirodules in action I imagine he game is just won. Not much can stop that. I just think it's easy to stop that happening however.
You've gotta give Shuppet a break about the Swarmlord. You can find quotes of his where he says the Swarmlord may not only be the worst model in our codex, but the worst model in the entire game. He's just having a hard time hearing a great tournament player is finding a role for the Swarmlord in his list. You're shattering his world-view.
Oh ur still trolling me? Thought you might be over this grudge by now. Once again, without using any supporting logic, you take the side of "tournament players say its right so how dare you contest it!", without being capable of applying a scrap of logic or even self-composed thought to any of your statements. You can keep arguing things just because you don't like me - or maybe you can start actually sharing the logic behind your opinions as to why I'm actually so incorrect all the time. Like, you know - a strategy discussion. Like, without the snide personal comments. You know. I'm backing every post and statement I make about a model or a play with supporting logic - people ARE allowed to give their own opinion even if it is different to that of a tournament player - is there any need for this sort of rude attitude in a strategy discussion thread?
By and large, I rarely post. I don't get enough games in to say anything with 100% authority. When I do, it's usually to say something snarky to someone who's responses are becoming annoying to read. I would agree that it's a personality flaw. It does, however, say something about you, Shuppet, that I often become annoyed by your responses to people on these forums. I know this isn't going to make you take a long look in the mirror, so I'll just move on...
In an effort to add something to this discussion, I played a game last night where I really wish I had the Swarmlord on the table. I, like most others, fill my HQ slots with Dakka Flyrants, and while they were off across the board doing there thing (basically killing an Imperial Knight Titan) my shooting base (2 dakkafexen, and an exocrine, hanging out with a Malanthrope and a few zoanthropes) got overrun by Chapter Master Smashf*cker on a bike with his command squad, flanked by another large squad of bikes. I was able to bring some Hormagants and 1 shrike that had been engaged in another combat back to help out, which made a huge scrum where there was no obvious outcome, but the dice did not smile favorably upon me and I eventually lost the day.
Had I an actual beatstick MC, be it Swarmlord, Trygon, Dimachaeron, etc, things may have gone differently, and I may try out a double CAD list in the future where I run 2 Dakka Flyrants AND the Swarmlord (I feel the Swarmlords added utility and invul save in CC makes up for the cost difference over the other "beatsticks" of our codex) to protect / advance with my firebase. I've already got him painted up...may as well break him back out.
Ok, here's an update (and reformatting of my Lord of War Tactica).
Barbed Hierodule:
After playing against the barbed hierodule (BH) a few times, I'm finding he's actually better than I thought, especially when you accompany a malanthrope/venomthrope with him. At first glance, for its points, the Barbed Hierodule isn't very survivable. It is just as easy to kill as a wraithknight, but costs more than 2x the wraithknight's price. However, he has turned out to be much more resilient than expected in my games because he can very easily get 2+ cover with the malan/venomthrope if there are any ruins at all nearby. Unless you can ignore cover with a lot of high-strength or rending shots, he may surprise many with how hard he is to shoot down.
Another issue with the barbed hierodule is that he can be taken down in assault quite easily by a more dedicated assault unit. While barbie is a dangerous threat in Assault, he is not an actual dedicated Tyranid assault unit and can be overwhelmed by certain matchups in Assault. Strength D attacks, multiple thunderhammers, Insta-death attacks like force weapons and units like dimachaerons, Swarmlord and balesword Nurgle monstrous characters, rending attacks, assault deathstars.....all are units that the should stay away from. Oftentimes, it is worth consider a "bodyguard" of sorts when running the BH. Large units of gribblies (termagants, hormagants or gargoyles), the dimachaeron or even the Swarmlord can actually complement the BH well.
Finally, as good as its shooting is, it lacks skyfire, thus making the BH not optimal to shoot at air targets. Also, its shooting is only at AP3, thus making him not optimal at shooting at 2+ save units as well. It also makes him unable to one-shot/explode any vehicle that is not open-topped.
Now how can the barbed hierodule contribute to the army?
1. The best feature of the BH is its shooting. 12 S10 shots makes it a reliable ranged anti-tank unit. He is also great against very tough units like Necron Overlords on barges, wraithknights, multi-wound Tyranid/Daemon units and Tau suits as well as Imperial Knights (or units that Tyranids usually have problems dealing with). He is especially good against Imperial Knights as he can force them to position their ion shields in a certain direction, thus allowing the flyrants to flank them and to fire at them in their unprotected arcs. As a gargantuan creature, he can also split-fire, thus giving him the potential to take down 2 vehicles a turn (as well as to be able to assault 2 units as well). In a meta where MSU-mech has come back strong, the ability to split-fire then becomes a very important attribute.
2. He is deadly in assault. While not a dedicated Assault unit per se, his stomps makes him deadly in close combat. It is his stomps that makes him fearsome in combat, especially against deathstar or elite Assault units.
3. Mobility. The BH is actually quite fast, due to its 12" move and Move Through Cover. It's also got the Agile rule, meaning that it can run double-time or it can run and still fire 1 gun.
4. Board control/area denial. Because of his mobility and lethality in combat, very few enemy units, with the exception of dedicated enemy Assault units, will want to go near him. This makes him a great tool for the Tyranid player to use to direct the enemy to where he wants. In most cases, Barby is great as a board control unit and to deny the opposing army lots of real estate on the battlefield. Against opponents with the lack of assault units, you want to place objectives as close to each other as possible. Then centralize the BH among these objectives and dare the enemy to come close. If they don't, then Barby still has the range to hurt the enemy. If they do, then it is shooting and assault for the BH.
5. Bullet magnet. Although he can be taken down with enough shooting, the BH can also absorb a lot of firepower, thus making it easier for the rest of the army. If you keep a venom/malanthrope by his side (and if there are ruins nearby), it is not too hard to give him 2+ cover. Combined with his high Toughness and his natural FNP, he becomes highly resistant to most shooting. As long as you play him aggressively (and not just leave him sitting behind cover in your deployment zone), he WILL draw a lot of fire if the opponent has the guns to do so. When he does, that is a very good thing for the rest of the army.
It is important to note that, as the games get larger, he becomes more easier to kill. His value is directly proportional to the size of the game. The smaller the game, the better he becomes. Fortunately for Tyranid players, in a standard tournament game of around 1750-2000 points, he is very good.
Sorry for the delay everyone, been busy with work the past couple days... Here's the review for the Haruspex, I'll hopefully have the Harpy's done shortly as well.
Haruspex:
The Haruspex at its most basic is effectively a Carnifex that exchanges firepower and raw strength for improved durability (+1 wound, +1 initative, Feeder Beast) and placement in a marginally less competitive slot, to the point that a Carnifex with similar biomorphs costs the same amount of points.
Unique Special Rules:
- Rapacious Hunger: On the turn in which the Haruspex charges, it gains an extra attack for each unsaved wound caused by its regular attacks (no extra attacks from wounds caused by Hammer of Wrath, Tail Biomorphs, Acid Blood, or the bonus attacks themselves - ID wounds count as 1 wound). This is more or less a nice bonus, but not really a make-or-break ability since it only works on the charge and the creature‘s low quantity of attacks prevents it from getting too frenzied.
- Feeder Beast: If the Haruspex causes one or more unsaved wounds in the Assault phase, it automatically regains 1 wound lost earlier at the end of the phase. This rule renders the Haruspex quite resilient to the odd hidden power fists that would give other monsters trouble and gives it an attritional edge when fighting against other monstrous creatures (provided they lack ID weapons of course). Unlike Rapacious Hunger, Feeder Beast is not restricted in what must cause a wound in order to activate it, allowing Acid Blood, Hammer of Wrath, and even the Grasping Tongue (via Overwatch) to trigger it.
Biomorphs:
- Crushing Claws (stock): In 6th edition these had relatively little benefit since most Tyranid monstrous creatures (including the Haruspex) could get at least 3 S10 attacks on the turn they charged with rerolls for armor penetration. With the nerfs to smash in 7th, these make the Haruspex one of the few monsters left that can reliably wreck vehicles in assault (with the Haruspex’s S7 and Armorbane from the claws leading to average armor penetration roll of 14). The provided strength boost also comes into play when fighting other monstrous creatures, as in most cases it will wound on 3's and can harm Wraith-construct monsters on 5's compared to 6's for everything else.
- Acid Blood (stock): While not something one would normally pay for due to the unreliable nature of the Biomorph, Acid Blood does pair nicely with the Feeder Beast rule as wounds from Acid Blood can both trigger the special rule and Acid Blood benefits from the extra wounds granted. For maximum effect, can be combined with Feel No Pain from Catalyst for "free" activations and the Harpy's Sonic Screech for added reliability.
- Grasping Tongue (stock): The Grasping Tongue is a 12’’ range S6 AP2 weapon with the precision shots special rule (formerly known as “Gulp!”), allowing it to occasionally snipe special weapons and the like from units. The weapon can basically be thought of in the same vein as Bioplasma from the Carnifex, though slightly more useful since it has zero risk of hurting the Haruspex itself and can be used defensively in Overwatch. Due to its AP2, the Grasping Tongue is also hilariously one of the precious few weapons in the Tyranid armory that can explode a vehicle at range, though its middling strength limits what it can score a penetrating hit against.
- Toxin Sacs: Since the Haruspex is S7 due to its Crushing Claws, it can actually benefit from poison’s reroll when fighting against most other monstrous creatures in addition to the reroll granted against infantry models. Not bad if you have the points to spare, but not necessary.
- Adrenal Glands: An excellent upgrade and more or less an auto-take for the Haruspex if the points can be spared. Besides the obvious benefits of Fleet to a melee-centric creature, the strength bonus from Furious Charge allows the Haruspex to double out multi-wound T4 models on the turn it charges and helps with the primary role of cracking higher AV vehicles.
- Regeneration: Gets a bit of a nod on the Haruspex since it already has an in-built form of regeneration that stacks with the biomorph, allowing it to potentially regain two wounds a turn. Still, the upgrade is expensive (brings the total cost to that of a stock Trygon) and the points can generally be put to better use elsewhere.
- Thresher Scythe: Doesn’t benefit the Haruspex’s Rapacious Hunger and is a fairly weak extra attack, not really worth the cost to upgrade sadly.
--------------
Due to its unique ability to hurt more heavily armored vehicles, the most obvious function for the Haruspex in a competitive army is that of an extra Carnifex specifically tooled for cracking open heavy armor, freeing up the actual Carnifexes to lay down firepower from their devourers every turn against softer targets. Outside of this function, the Haruspex performs best when pitted against targets that rely on higher-than-average toughness (5-6 being ideal) and/or good armor saves over invul saves and numbers for defense while having relatively little ability to pile on wounds to allow Feeder Beast maximum efficiency. Most T6 monstrous creatures fall into this category as do most elite infantry (Wraith Guard, Bikers, Centurions, etc) making for no shortage of targets should large vehicles be unavailable. Due to the Feeder Beast rule, the Haruspex also has a slight advantage over other monstrous creatures when dealing with hidden power weapons in infantry squads, as it can simply weather the blows and chew its way through the protective chaff.
In terms of drawbacks, the Haruspex shares most of the weaknesses of other ground-based Tyranid monsters and can be treated accordingly. Specifically, it is highly vulnerable to dedicated counter-assault units (especially those that carry ID weaponry) and focused high-strength firepower. Despite its fluff, it is also not especially good at escaping from masses of cheap troops once otherwise engaged, though such fights can be used as an opportunity to regrow wounds in relative safety.
Grades: B- (with Adrenal Glands), C (vanilla)
Also while working on this I found a bit of a rules query by coincidence. On page 74 in the BRB it says to treat glancing hits as a single wound and penetrating hits as two wounds in combat resolution. Would that wording perhaps allow the Haruspex's rules to work on vehicles too? By the wording, if it did a glancing hit it did the equivalent of one wound for combat resolution and both rules simply require inflicting an unsaved wound in the assault phase.
On a last note, since I am working on the Harpy I'd be happy to grab the Hive Crone review if it hasn't been claimed already.
@ Strat_N8 Good review on the Haruspex. I don't think anyone has claimed Crone yet. Might be worthwhile checking in YMDC about that Glancing Hit/Wound thing..
@jy2 Take it the Scythed Version is still not a competitive choice? Haha, do prefer it's model to the Barbed Version. Regardless it's still a nice update.
I can review the Mawloc, should get it done hopefully by tonight.
3x sporocyst
3x toxicrene in tyrannocyte
Hypertoxic Node
Nothing is unbeatable. Looks fun though. Try it and get back to us.
I dont have enough termagant, tervigon, tyrannocyte and toxicrene! haha
just wonder if anyone can do it?
this list tactic = sent all sporocyst at front, closer to enemy deploy area and keeping breeding.... and swarmlord stand beween two sporocyst then 12+6=18" sync with armies. or more from warlord trait?
scatter tervigon around the battle and aim objective close as possible keep out of the enemy line of sight as possible. breed those armies there..
once all deep strike brood has been arrive, use hypertoxic, toxicrene spilt a mini pizza disc poison cloud
then finally, attack! but keep small termagant stay at objective.
iNcontroL wrote: helluva game Jy2 <3 always a pleasure to battle yeah. We got to rematch before I head home for the new year btw!
Sure thing, buddy! Though I will tell you in advance, I am very confident with my necrons, almost to the point of cockiness. In my mind, the only army that can beat them is themselves. But we will see what happens after they get updated.
1. Swarmy survived, even without any Tyrant Guards. That is due to several facts.
With 2+ cover always from the malanthrope and FNP from Catalyst from the Swarmlord himself, he is damn tough to kill.
I didn't shoot at him at all until I downed all 3 flyrants. To me, he was a low-priority unit. Sure, Prefered Enemy on the barbed hierodule is good. However, that is nothing compared to the havoc a flying tyrant can cause.
He is a decent force-multiplier, but in terms of raw offense, he was underwhelming in our game. I believe he only killed 1 annihilation barge. Then again, I can't really fault him for that due to Mindshackle scarabs. If he assaults my bargelords, he has just as good of a chance to insta-kill himself as he does my Overlords.
2. Geoff actually misplayed the game. With the Swarmlord, board control is one of his strengths. Geoff should have placed an objective near the center where Swarmy would usually go. However, Geoff was too used to spreading out the objectives for his rippers to deepstrike onto. He also forgot that Necrons is perhaps the best objective-grabbing army in the game and loves to spread out the objectives more than tyranids do. Thus, he was playing more of my game than I was playing his. Swarmlord ended the game in the middle of nowhere (well, he did get Linebreaker) and far away from any objectives. Had there been an objective within range for him, that might have been the difference-maker there.
3. F*cking Barbie was the bomb! He has been incredibly efficient in both games that I played against. The 1st game, Barbie killed 2 bargelords and 2-3 annihilation barges. In this game, he killed all 3 bargelords and 1 AB. That guy f*cking rocked!
4. Mucolids actually did something, penning one of my bargelords and reducing his quantum shielding down to AV11! They also forced me to fire some of my AB's at them.
5. I actually got a little lucky with my Warlord trait, getting Conqueror of Cities and thus, giving my vehicles 3+ cover behind ruins. However, despite that, Geoff still killed 6 out of 7 of my AV13 vehicles (and 2 out of my 3 flyers)! (Not one of my better games in terms of dice....failed so many saves when it counted.)
6. I made probably one of the most boneheaded mistakes that I will ever make against another competitive player in a competitive game. Usually, I am more focused than that, but with the game potentially ending on that turn, I forget to move one of my units onto an objective.
jy2 wrote: Just had an amazing battle against Geoff "InControl" and his tournament Tyranids. This was a rematch. The last game, he won when his barbed hierodule stepped on both of my Necron bargelords and he rolled a 6, thus removing both of them. I then failed both of the 4+ return-to-play saves as well.
This time, Geoff ran the new Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment + Primary detachment. His list:
assuming 3 flyrants, SL + malanthrope to buff heirduyle? first legit useful deployment of swarmy i've seen since the new codex dropped.
it's a strange new world we're living in.
Personally, I'd rather take a 4th flyrant over the Swarmlord....but that's just me.
jifel wrote: Alright guys, I signed up for the Venomthrope and Malanthrope a few days back, and it's the weekend now, so it's time for me to deliver! I really think these two reviews had to be written together, because they are very similar in role.
Venomthrope:
Spoiler:
When the Tyranid codex first came out back in January, the Venomthrope jumped back into competitive lists thanks to the massive boosts it provides to the army. When the book came out, the Venomthrope stood out as perhaps the best choice in the codex, second only to the always-popular Flyrant. Venomthropes are rather cheap, costing as much as a Rhino and a Meltagun. The Venomthrope's value comes from the 6" bubble of shrouded it supplies to all Tyranid units with a model in range. Tyranids as an army have historically struggled with being shot off the board before they had a chance to advance, but the Venomthrope guarantees that any model in terrain will have at least a 3++ cover save and very often a 2++. Also, any FMC that happens to jink near a Venomthrope will benefit from a 2++ cover save. Compared to the alpha-strikes that we used to suffer from, Tyranids are now much more durable than they were before, and with Venomthrope support, Tyranids can comfortably elect to second without being afraid of losing half of their army turn 1.
Of course, the Venomthrope does have it's weaknesses. Most noticeably, the fact that it's not very tough. At Toughness 4 with 2 wounds and only a 5+ save, a Venomthrope is very easy to focus down if your opponent has ignores cover or decent firepower. After all, even in ideal cover a Venomthrope is only as hard to kill as two Terminators. Fortunately for Tyranid players, there are several ways to help this. The first is to deploy him out of Line of sight, like the inside of a ruin, or to buy a Fortification. Due to the rules of "Area of Effect" powers, the 6" shrouded bubble of a Venomthrope is measured from the hull of a Bastion that it is embarked in. This not only increases the area of effect tremendously, it also helps the Venomthrope become much more durable. Few opponents are able to kill a Bastion at long range turn 1, especially when there are several MCs running towards them. As a bonus, all models on top of or behind a Bastion will get at least a 4++ cover save, which then increases to a 2++, making the Bastion a great firing position for the likes of Biovores. The one downside to this approach is that the Venomthrope is completely immobile, and so you will have to disembark eventually to continue to provide cover.
Secondary roles: Although the Venomthrope is best used as a support beast to help the rest of your swarm survive, it is also handy in assault when times are desperate. Venomthropes have 2 attacks each base and strike at Initiative 7, with a 2++ poison and so can threaten many targets. But, they are very fragile in CC so I would personally never send them into combat alone, and never with anything tougher than a Tactical squad.
Grade: B+ (on foot), A- (in a Bastion)
Mlanthropes:
Spoiler:
The first thing to understand about the Malanthrope is that he is a Forge World unit, and therefore it is polite to gain permission before bringing him in a game. The second thing to understand is that he is an absolute monster of a unit, better than a Venomthrope in every way and arguably the best unit available to us. Malanthropes, like Venomthropes, provide a 6" bubble of shrouded that will help protect your units. But, for a nickel less than 2 Venomthropes, a Malanthrope has 4 wounds, Toughness 5, and a 3+ armor save, and best of all is a Synapse creature. On the one hand, he is the ultimate backfield support unit because he is a single cheap package to provide both Synapse and shrouded, and is cheaper and tougher than a Venomthrope and Zoanthrope combined. Thanks to this increased toughness, a Malanthrope can fill the roles a Venomthrope can't, by advancing upfield alone and still being tough, thanks to his improved stats and Regeneration. It's also a common tactic to buy two single Malanthropes and run them upfield to share the love of special rules they provide.
Malanthropes are durable enough that a Bastion isn't required, but it still is not a bad idea to spread out his Shrouded and Synapse Area of Effects. However, I would plan on getting outside the box late game and moving upfield to help support the army. And excellent option here is to buy an escape hatch for the Bastion so that the Malanthrope can shoot 18" upfield when he chooses to get out. Like his little brother the Venomthrope, a Malanthrope is quite handy in Close Combat,. Thanks to fleet, he is a little easier to get there, and his improved stats means he will hold up better in combat, while he has three 2+ poison attacks at initiative 5. The Malanthrope also has a host of special rules, he may issue challenges, but is not a character and so may not be challenged. In a challenge though, on a roll of 4+ he limits his enemy to half of his attacks, and initiative one thanks to his grasping tail. Better yet, if the Malanthrope is part of a combat that destroys an enemy unit, the Mal may not sweeping advance but instead gives Preferred enemy to any Tyranid in his synapse range. While a Malanthrope alone is not a great close combat unit, he certainly has nothing to fear and is wonderful in a multi-assault with other units to help him out. I think it's important not to lose sight of his role, as a support bug, but the Malanthrope is still useful in a ton of situations, making him the best unit for his points in the whole Tyranid arsenal.
Grades: A+ (on foot), A+ (in a Bastion)
Thanks, jifel. Added!
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Well, I'm going to be honest. I promised 2 reviews but I have quite a bit of work to do. I completely rewrote them to be more insightful and I am going to have to release the Tyrant Guard later on this Sunday after I can finish it up to be better.
Spore Mine Cluster
Spore mines are one of the most strategic assets available in the Tyranid codex, though in the most bizarre ways.
1. The spore mine received a massive points decrease.
2. They lost random control dice.
3. They lost Orbital Deployment but gained Floating Death.
You're a real trooper, Hunger.
Added!
Strat_N8 wrote: Sorry for the delay everyone, been busy with work the past couple days... Here's the review for the Haruspex, I'll hopefully have the Harpy's done shortly as well.
Haruspex:
The Haruspex at its most basic is effectively a Carnifex that exchanges firepower and raw strength for improved durability (+1 wound, +1 initative, Feeder Beast) and placement in a marginally less competitive slot, to the point that a Carnifex with similar biomorphs costs the same amount of points.
Happy to see so many people contributing. Thanks, Strat.
With regards to the Haruspex, IMO he does not get the wounds for killing vehicles. Vehicles count as +1/+2 Wounds only when determining combat resolution. However, they are not actually wounds. Thus, no +Wounds for the haruspex.
Frozocrone wrote: @ Strat_N8 Good review on the Haruspex. I don't think anyone has claimed Crone yet. Might be worthwhile checking in YMDC about that Glancing Hit/Wound thing..
@jy2 Take it the Scythed Version is still not a competitive choice? Haha, do prefer it's model to the Barbed Version. Regardless it's still a nice update.
I can review the Mawloc, should get it done hopefully by tonight.
In larger games, no, he (the scythed hierodule) isn't.
However, in smaller games - as in regular, tournament 40K games - I would say he is semi-competitive. He is not as good as the Barbed Hierodule, though he can be a nightmare for MEQ players (especially drop pod MEQ players) due to his hellstorm gun.
I will review him later.
And take your time with your reviews, Frozo. No rush.
SHUPPET wrote: Sounds like SL was a 285 pt upgrade for PE that game, and that's the main problem with him
He is much better than that. Keep in mind that Geoff is just starting to use him again and so, is somewhat rusty on Swarmlord tactics.
However, he will improve and when he does, he will use the Swarmlord more efficiently.
But with that said, I'd still prefer the flexibility of a 4th flyrant instead....and I wouldn't run the barbed hierodule either. Just a difference in playstyle preference.
jy2 wrote: Where do barbed Heirodules fit into the new, new Nids then? do they have a place?
YES! See my review above.
I agree. They are pretty much what Rupture Cannon TFexes should be, durable S10 shooting, and can tear it up in assault.
Just wondering, can they take a drop pod? Battle scribe lists it as an option, but that can't be right can it... I don't know that it would make them much better,but I do know it doesn't make much sense thematically lol
Personally, I'd rather take a 4th flyrant over the Swarmlord....but that's just me
I agree, although I understand inControls logic for wanting a bodyguard.p, so I think his way is a viable way to go about it as well. A bodyguard that can actually stay alive more reliably would be better tho IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, he was also against the army that sees the Swarmlord as tankier than Flyrants most the time because of snapshooting jink right. And even then it sounds like you could have wiped that Swarmlord up if he presented enough of a threat. I just can't see him as worth that MASSIVE points investment, for an easily kiteable, purely CC threat, that dies easier than putting the same amount of points into absolutely anything in the dex. One or two of these things are ok,but being a pure glass cannon, slowest tier of model in the game, and ridiculously expensive, is just not the right choice without Tyrant Guard wounds or a pod in any list,NEVERMIND running him completely naked in a list where (against most armies) he's going to be the easiest thing to kill on the board. Yes yes, the cover save from the Malanthrope and that, but that applies to everything you want to use for the role.
jy2 wrote: Ok, here's an update (and reformatting of my Lord of War Tactica).
Barbed Hierodule:
After playing against the barbed hierodule (BH) a few times, I'm finding he's actually better than I thought, especially when you accompany a malanthrope/venomthrope with him. At first glance, for its points, the Barbed Hierodule isn't very survivable. It is just as easy to kill as a wraithknight, but costs more than 2x the wraithknight's price. However, he has turned out to be much more resilient than expected in my games because he can very easily get 2+ cover with the malan/venomthrope if there are any ruins at all nearby. Unless you can ignore cover with a lot of high-strength or rending shots, he may surprise many with how hard he is to shoot down.
Another issue with the barbed hierodule is that he can be taken down in assault quite easily by a more dedicated assault unit. While barbie is a dangerous threat in Assault, he is not an actual dedicated Tyranid assault unit and can be overwhelmed by certain matchups in Assault. Strength D attacks, multiple thunderhammers, Insta-death attacks like force weapons and units like dimachaerons, Swarmlord and balesword Nurgle monstrous characters, rending attacks, assault deathstars.....all are units that the should stay away from. Oftentimes, it is worth consider a "bodyguard" of sorts when running the BH. Large units of gribblies (termagants, hormagants or gargoyles), the dimachaeron or even the Swarmlord can actually complement the BH well.
Finally, as good as its shooting is, it lacks skyfire, thus making the BH not optimal to shoot at air targets. Also, its shooting is only at AP3, thus making him not optimal at shooting at 2+ save units as well. It also makes him unable to one-shot/explode any vehicle that is not open-topped.
Now how can the barbed hierodule contribute to the army?
1. The best feature of the BH is its shooting. 12 S10 shots makes it a reliable ranged anti-tank unit. He is also great against very tough units like Necron Overlords on barges, wraithknights, multi-wound Tyranid/Daemon units and Tau suits as well as Imperial Knights (or units that Tyranids usually have problems dealing with). He is especially good against Imperial Knights as he can force them to position their ion shields in a certain direction, thus allowing the flyrants to flank them and to fire at them in their unprotected arcs. As a gargantuan creature, he can also split-fire, thus giving him the potential to take down 2 vehicles a turn (as well as to be able to assault 2 units as well). In a meta where MSU-mech has come back strong, the ability to split-fire then becomes a very important attribute.
2. He is deadly in assault. While not a dedicated Assault unit per se, his stomps makes him deadly in close combat. It is his stomps that makes him fearsome in combat, especially against deathstar or elite Assault units.
3. Mobility. The BH is actually quite fast, due to its 12" move and Move Through Cover. It's also got the Agile rule, meaning that it can run double-time or it can run and still fire 1 gun.
4. Board control/area denial. Because of his mobility and lethality in combat, very few enemy units, with the exception of dedicated enemy Assault units, will want to go near him. This makes him a great tool for the Tyranid player to use to direct the enemy to where he wants. In most cases, Barby is great as a board control unit and to deny the opposing army lots of real estate on the battlefield. Against opponents with the lack of assault units, you want to place objectives as close to each other as possible. Then centralize the BH among these objectives and dare the enemy to come close. If they don't, then Barby still has the range to hurt the enemy. If they do, then it is shooting and assault for the BH.
5. Bullet magnet. Although he can be taken down with enough shooting, the BH can also absorb a lot of firepower, thus making it easier for the rest of the army. If you keep a venom/malanthrope by his side (and if there are ruins nearby), it is not too hard to give him 2+ cover. Combined with his high Toughness and his natural FNP, he becomes highly resistant to most shooting. As long as you play him aggressively (and not just leave him sitting behind cover in your deployment zone), he WILL draw a lot of fire if the opponent has the guns to do so. When he does, that is a very good thing for the rest of the army.
It is important to note that, as the games get larger, he becomes more easier to kill. His value is directly proportional to the size of the game. The smaller the game, the better he becomes. Fortunately for Tyranid players, in a standard tournament game of around 1750-2000 points, he is very good.
Grade: A (normal 40K games), B (Apoc-sized games)
Yeah, in some ways I feel Nids have tactica that does not concern the units used... As you know I am a big fan of screening units, and a bubble wrap can (in my experience) often function as a force multiplier.
A second factor, that is often overlooked is the tactical effect of a stratagem, for example Maximum Threat. It lowers the number of optimal choices your foe makes, by concealing those choices. (Positional Dominance limits your foes movement, etc...)
I think it might qualify as a basic "meta" rule for Tyranids..."The smaller the game, the Bigger the Bug" ie, Big Bugs become much less powerfull as the total points available become larger. In a very large (1850+) Tyranofex is just a Big Bug But in a smaller sized game it is a Troop deleting monster. It looks like that applies to Gargantuan as well.
I can understand using a Swarmlord over a 4th Flyrant in that list.
•Catalyst on the Hierodule when needed
•+1 Warpcharge over another Flyrant
•Preferred Enemy buff
•Assault deterrent
•Cover Save for the Barbie in a pinch
•+1 Reserves(Would be especially useful if going second and reserved your Flyrants)
•18" Synapse to help keep things under control/Fearless at farther distance from the Hierodule
A 4th Flyrant isn't that good at babysitting, needing to move a minimum distance to keep swooping- The Hierodule may not want to move a certain distance to keep in/out of line of sight or cover. The Swarmlord can baby-sit and buff both, while keeping better pace with the Hierodule. A Flyrant can do some of the same things, but not all of them which is why you go for the Swarmlord.
I might be missing something about the Swarmlord that might make it a lot better than I think it is - I've seen this mention of him getting a 2+ save from the Malanthrope twice now - how is this? If this is the case I think I might have to change my opinion, that makes a big difference from 3+.
I have to admit, I really like the Shield of Baal e-book. Some cool/fun/interesting rules, fun fluff.
Now please can you poke holes, critique or just comment on what was originally going to be a fairly simple triple flyrant dual CAD list;
CAD:
Flyrant, Devs, Egrubs (Warlord - go go re-roll on strategic) 2x Rippers, DS 1x Lictor
1x Malanthrope
All of this for 1500pts. I guess it could be light on gross total scoring bodies but so far that would be my only concern. Lots of options. Fun? Competitive? Also trying to make best use of the command benefits whilst still getting my re-roll for book traits.
*HFD = Hive Fleet Detachment
For a 1500-pt army, that is a damn good list. I wouldn't use it in friendly, casual games. That is more of a tournament list.
One thing to note. You won't be able to use that list in most tournaments (at least not here in the US) due to most tournaments having a 2-detachment maximum. However, I am not sure what the meta is like on the other side of the pond.
Verviedi wrote: Which formation is best against GK PaladinStar?
LAN, Skyblight, or Other?
I'd take Skyblight or the Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment.
Iechine wrote: This is my cut throat, refined down no nonsense tournament list. I have to order a Dimachaeron which is no big deal as I need another to paint and sell, and I have to figure out (like everyone else) what to do for the Mucolid situation.
Critique appreciated.
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Venomthrope
Dimachaeron w/Tyrannocyte
11 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Bastion w/Comms
The Gargoyles will have to really take the 2" spacing to the max to do their job. The bigass bastion helps alleviate the screening issue some.
Turn two is really rough on the opponent. Four flyrants speaks for itself, but the Mawlocs and Dima cannot be ignored. The Mucolids will arrive in threatening positions all around.
Solid.
This is the type of list I would run. Quad-flyrants is very strong but not too unbalancing. Then the rest of the army is support MSU. Very nice list.
Drop 1 gargoyle and give your rippers deepstrike. You won't lose much by dropping a gargoyle, but you gain a lot more flexibility when you give your rippers the option to deepstrike.
felixcat wrote: So with Hive Fleet Leviathan I can comfortably field 4 Flyrants and 4 Mawlocs now ...
I can pound from the air and the ground. Whether or not this is compwetitive remains to be seen but an eight MC list will not be easy to play against.
That list is downright scary, but you need more lictors to make it work. Also, the number of mawlocs you have there is overkill. 2 is a good number. I would never take more than 3 maximum. I'd drop the 4th mawloc for 1-2 more lictors and other support units (like a malanthrope or venomthrope).
Noctem wrote: What do you guys think about this list? I don't face any alpha strike lists.
Mawloc
Mawloc
Carnifex w/ BLDevs with Tyrannocyte w/ Venoms
Bastion w/ Comms Relay
Comes out to 1843 so 7 points under right now. I know it's only got the Venomthrope and two Flyrants on the table on turn 1, but I feel like with the right placement I'd be ok.
Thoughts?
It's solid.
As a matter of fact, compared to some of the other lists here, it's actually much friendlier. Still, I wouldn't want to be your opponent come Turn 2!
Wilson wrote: Triple Flyrant
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Adlance formation
1845...
Video batrep coming this week!
Oh gosh. Disgusting.
Adlance knights is one of our greatest foes, but now you want to include them into your army? I feel bad for your opponent.
Razerous wrote: What are people's opinions on the sporefield formation?
It's good and cheap. However, in US tournament play, you'd have to give up on the Hive Fleet Leviathan formation, Skyblight or even self-allies. It's good but not that good....
Iechine wrote: Essentially, now that we have turn 2 deep strike focus, you can either fish for the Warlord trait, get a bastion w/comms, or go with Swarmlord.
So looking at it that way, Swarmlord is no long an overcosted pig, but a 195pt death dealer with heavier psychic and buffs, he just has the comms relay ability sort of built in. Drop in in a Tyrannocyte and you have sort of the same effect as a Dima, he's still billy badass to an extent but with frightening close combat potential.
I think a list like this would cater to use of the Swarmlord, and I'd definitely practice a few games with it.
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devourers and electro
Flyrant w/Devourers and electro
Flyrant w/Devourers and electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
You can still use Mawlocs instead of the expensive Tervigon if you like, but a drop podded Swarmlord and Tervigon are quite the threat factor for a lot of lists and they synergize well.
Theres no great reason to have a walking Swarmlord though. I get that he can get great cover saves but we can all raise our hands Im sure if I ask who has lost a Tyrant with 2+ cover saves turn 1 before.
I like your other more well-rounded list better.
Solidcrash wrote: Just wonder if this list are unbeatable? Combin arms detachment.
Without Number
Swarmlord ( ensure every deep strike unit arrive in turn two.)
Iechine wrote: This is my cut throat, refined down no nonsense tournament list. I have to order a Dimachaeron which is no big deal as I need another to paint and sell, and I have to figure out (like everyone else) what to do for the Mucolid situation.
Critique appreciated.
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Venomthrope
Dimachaeron w/Tyrannocyte
11 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Bastion w/Comms
The Gargoyles will have to really take the 2" spacing to the max to do their job. The bigass bastion helps alleviate the screening issue some.
Turn two is really rough on the opponent. Four flyrants speaks for itself, but the Mawlocs and Dima cannot be ignored. The Mucolids will arrive in threatening positions all around.
Definitely like the list. It's very similar to what I would bring to a tournament. The only critique that I have is I would caution against putting the Venomthrope inside the bastion. Not that you need synapse around the bastion, but without synapse, the Venomthrope can still own itself by failing an IB test. Now, you can mitigate that somewhat by just putting him into the leviathan detachment so that you get a re-roll, but in the event that you can't overcome that, the Venomthrope will leave the bastion if he get the fall back result. Although he is fearless inside the bastion, it says that the unit "is treated AS IF it had failed morale and must fall back" so sadly the part where the Venomthrope never needs to take the check is skipped over and he will hop out of the bastion and then eventually run off the board unless you get lucky/have other backfield synapse. Not too ideal if you ask me. As such, I always prefer the Malanthrope inside the box. I'm basically experimenting with different combos of 3-4 Flyrants, 1-2 Dimachaerons and 1-2 Mawlocs. Going against an alpha strike army like drop pod marines is rough because they can typically down a Flyrant even through 2+ cover, and of course if you don't bubble wrap, the bastion is toast. My advice would be to try a list concept that concedes first blood against an army like that. For example, if you use your Mucolids to bubble wrap, they may very well waste some shots on it in an attempt to get first blood, and Mucolids can easily screen your bastion if you don't care whether or not the have 2+ cover. They should be looking at 4+ at worst (3+ with night fighting) but if it gets to that, they've already done their job. I would much rather give up first blood and a Mucolid than 2-3 wounds off of my Flyrant (or having my bastion exploded on turn 1, especially because the Makanthrope is likely then toast also)
Sinful Hero wrote: I can understand using a Swarmlord over a 4th Flyrant in that list.
•Catalyst on the Hierodule when needed
•+1 Warpcharge over another Flyrant
•Preferred Enemy buff
•Assault deterrent
•Cover Save for the Barbie in a pinch
•+1 Reserves(Would be especially useful if going second and reserved your Flyrants)
•18" Synapse to help keep things under control/Fearless at farther distance from the Hierodule
A 4th Flyrant isn't that good at babysitting, needing to move a minimum distance to keep swooping- The Hierodule may not want to move a certain distance to keep in/out of line of sight or cover. The Swarmlord can baby-sit and buff both, while keeping better pace with the Hierodule. A Flyrant can do some of the same things, but not all of them which is why you go for the Swarmlord.
Don't forget he can give himself Furious Charge, thus making Swarmy better against vehicles and tough units like wraithknights and other MC's.
But this is where Swarmy differs from the Flyrant substantially (see below). And I am not talking about surface things like stats or unit special rules. Rather, it is the little things that end up making the difference at the end of the game.
1. Flyrants are contributing directly to the offense each and every turn. Swarmy, not probably until Turn 3 at the earliest.
2. Swarmy can be ignored (like I did in our game). The flyrants, you can't.
3. I have the tendency to go after my opponent's support units - hiding troops, mobile units, etc. - and have won so many games this way, including against matchups that are typically bad for me. Swarmlord cannot do this. Flyrants can.
4. Flexibility. With flyrants, you have much more flexibility in terms of how you want to approach the game as well as how you can deal with different enemy army builds. They let me play a true "Water-warrior" style of play (a "water" army is one that is highly reactive and highly flexible). The Swarmlord, while a better pure force-multiplier, takes away some of this flexibility.
Well, it's the least I can do. To be honest, I haven't played a true game in more than a year. Most of what I have been playing now have been little 1k and under skirmishes, so I guess you could say these have been my way to atone for the countless rookie mistakes and questions I used to ask you guys, and show I do know how to actually run with the big boys again. Still, I was a bit surprised when I did the math on my defensive spore mine deployments. You realize they have a 30-40" maximum threat range in that set up?
Just wondering, can they take a drop pod? Battle scribe lists it as an option, but that can't be right can it... I don't know that it would make them much better,but I do know it doesn't make much sense thematically lol
I would think not, and any TO/tournament that lets you do so should be strung up.
SHUPPET wrote: I might be missing something about the Swarmlord that might make it a lot better than I think it is - I've seen this mention of him getting a 2+ save from the Malanthrope twice now - how is this? If this is the case I think I might have to change my opinion, that makes a big difference from 3+.
In my game, there was a piece of ruins in the center of the table (as well as in our deployment zones). In other words, there was plenty of ruins for cover. Swarmy + malanthrope + 5W + Catalyst + ruins = pretty damn resilient. That's 5W, 2+ cover, 4++ in close-combat and FNP!
But none of that mattered as I was too busy trying to shoot down his flyrants to care about Swarmy. Let him assault my Mindshackle lords if he wants.
Solidcrash wrote: Is there Without Number formations? I didn't know there are!
I just naming this list "without number" from old Tyranids codex. Heh.
So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
Would a reaper tyrant be a good option as a third to go monster hunting?
Hi guys. Long time lurker here on Dakkadakka. Have been playing nids since end of 5th ed. And have not liked how the nids was bound to a couple of set builds to be somewhat competative.
I was about to change army putting my Nids aside for a while and try to play something that was more then pushing alot of MC:s across the table (maybe fun the first 50-100 games). But it has been a bit off a
monotonous playstyle. And then the saving grace came. The tyrannocyte which then light a new fire for me about playing nids. To have some more good choices to build your army.
Played a game today inspired by the last BAO winner Ordoseans list.
The list i played was a double CAD with:
Flyrant
Flyrant
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers
3 Sporemines
3 Sporemines
Dakkafex in Pod
Mawloc
Deathleaper
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers
3 Sporemines
3 Sporemines
3 Sporemines
Dakkafex in Pod
Mawloc
Turn 1 ends 2-2
Turn 2 ends 5-2
Turn 3 ends 10-2 (We call it a game)
Must say i was mighty impressed about the lictors with their flexibility.
Just a little note. The list of things that can kill a Barbed Heirodule in shooting is pretty damn small. Farsight Bomb kill him in the turn they arrive. Centstar with ignore cover can kill him easily.
But many things can kill him in assault. I've probably lost my Barbed Heirodule 20 times at this point, and 17 of those were in assault. Mephiston can punk him pretty easily. TH+SS Terminators or TWC can kill him dead. Grey Knight force weapons take care of him. Dreadnoughts are a Threat. Knights kill him dead. Stompas make him look like a wuss. I've even lost him to Ork Power Klaws.
One tactic to keep him alive is to remember the challenge ability of the Malanthrope. If you can stall the Characters with the big assault profile, Barbie can take care of business.
I am not sold on the tactic of "Barbed Heirodule bodyguard", because the list of things that can kill Barbie in assault, but can't do the same to Swarmlord or a Dimacharon is pretty small. If your meta is limited enough that assault deathstars can't deal with a Swarmlord or Dimacharon, then a bodyguard might work well. But I think in most cases an Exocrine, or Dakkafex can contribute more throughout the game than a dedicated assault unit that hides in the backfield, and can also serve as a body guard for Barbie in a pinch. Also to run Barbie, you want that Malanthrope there, and he can eat challenges and take a few wounds.
Preferred Enemy is a good buff for Barbie. I've found that an Ammo dump serves a similar purpose, and does so for cheap. Also Aegis + Ammo dump gives you 2+ cover anywhere on the board if the store / Opponent don't cooperate with terrain. Bonus against knights because it forces them to "Charge through Cover" and get to you at initiative 1. The biggest problem is that you can't take both an Ammo Dump and a Comms relay or quad gun.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
Would a reaper tyrant be a good option as a third to go monster hunting?
I played two games with Skytyrant Primary / Hive Fleet Detachment. (As far as I could tell, you can make any Character your warlord - in doing so, that Detachment with the elected warlord becomes your primary).
I found it incredibly durable. The T3 sucks but think of him at a Flyrant with 46 wounds (I had 42 gargs in the single unit (2 broods)). He can LOS on a 2+ and he usually sits in the middle of the gargs. With simply positioning, the gargs provides all of my other 3 flyrants with 5+ cover most of the game until they found ruins for cover saves of their own. Jinking was only necessary if I felt the extra +1 to cover (from a 5+ to a 4+) was ideal (vendettas, etc). Skytyrant formation is going to be one of the best formations out there. Guarantee it. Time will tell!
Edit:
The Warlord - When choosing your army, you must nominate one model to be your Warlord. Unless specified otherwise, this must be a character model. If you do not have any character models in your army, then select any other model in your army to be the Warlord. The mpdel you choose as your Warlord also determines your Primary Detachment." -BRB, under "Choosing your army"
Skytyrant Swarm - Special Rules: The Hive Tyrant and Gargoyles in this Formation are a single unit. The Hive Tyrant can use the Look Out, Sir rule to attempt to re-allocate any Wound that it suffers onto a Gargoyle model from the unit, and will pass Look Out, Sir rolls on a 2+. The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding flight mode. The combined unit counts as 3 units for Victory Points purposes if it is completely destroyed.
After reading that a few times, the single model is your warlord, and the rule about Victory Points may only be for Kill Point mission types. Let me know what you guys think.
That being said, it's hard to kill the Skytyrant with 40+ models attached to it, all with fearless. (Out of the 2 games I played with it, my warlord only took a single wound)
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
Would a reaper tyrant be a good option as a third to go monster hunting?
I played two games with Skytyrant Primary / Hive Fleet Detachment. (As far as I could tell, you can make any Character your warlord - in doing so, that Detachment with the elected warlord becomes your primary).
I found it incredibly durable. The T3 sucks but think of him at a Flyrant with 46 wounds (I had 42 gargs in the single unit (2 broods)). He can LOS on a 2+ and he usually sits in the middle of the gargs. With simply positioning, the gargs provides all of my other 3 flyrants with 5+ cover most of the game until they found ruins for cover saves of their own. Jinking was only necessary if I felt the extra +1 to cover (from a 5+ to a 4+) was ideal (vendettas, etc). Skytyrant formation is going to be one of the best formations out there. Guarantee it.
On a further note, if the Skytyrant CAN be a warlord - The enemy not only has to kill the tyrant and EVERY last garg to get all 3 kill points, but need to kill every model in the squad to achieve "Slay the Warlord".
No - the warlord is a single model, not the unit he's in. Once the sky tyrant dies, the enemy gets StW.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
What was the points difference on that? Seems the tau side of your matchup outweighed the nids by a third or more.
Sinful Hero wrote: I can understand using a Swarmlord over a 4th Flyrant in that list.
•Catalyst on the Hierodule when needed
I think he has FNP already from being a GC.
SHUPPET wrote: I might be missing something about the Swarmlord that might make it a lot better than I think it is - I've seen this mention of him getting a 2+ save from the Malanthrope twice now - how is this? If this is the case I think I might have to change my opinion, that makes a big difference from 3+.
From ruins which grant a 4+ even if your base is just touching them, they're also generally the most common terrain. Add the Malanthrope's Shrouded and you've got your 2+
jy2 wrote:
This is the type of list I would run. Quad-flyrants is very strong but not too unbalancing. Then the rest of the army is support MSU. Very nice list.
Drop 1 gargoyle and give your rippers deepstrike. You won't lose much by dropping a gargoyle, but you gain a lot more flexibility when you give your rippers the option to deepstrike.
Cool deal, I'm excited to run it. A lot's changed since October thats for sure, I thought my quad Flyrant list was very strong back then. Now the drop pods/mucolids and leviathan have really
given us a chance to shine.
luke1705 wrote:
Iechine wrote: This is my cut throat, refined down no nonsense tournament list. I have to order a Dimachaeron which is no big deal as I need another to paint and sell, and I have to figure out (like everyone else) what to do for the Mucolid situation.
Critique appreciated.
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Venomthrope
Dimachaeron w/Tyrannocyte
11 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Bastion w/Comms
The Gargoyles will have to really take the 2" spacing to the max to do their job. The bigass bastion helps alleviate the screening issue some.
Turn two is really rough on the opponent. Four flyrants speaks for itself, but the Mawlocs and Dima cannot be ignored. The Mucolids will arrive in threatening positions all around.
Definitely like the list. It's very similar to what I would bring to a tournament. The only critique that I have is I would caution against putting the Venomthrope inside the bastion. Not that you need synapse around the bastion, but without synapse, the Venomthrope can still own itself by failing an IB test. Now, you can mitigate that somewhat by just putting him into the leviathan detachment so that you get a re-roll, but in the event that you can't overcome that, the Venomthrope will leave the bastion if he get the fall back result. Although he is fearless inside the bastion, it says that the unit "is treated AS IF it had failed morale and must fall back" so sadly the part where the Venomthrope never needs to take the check is skipped over and he will hop out of the bastion and then eventually run off the board unless you get lucky/have other backfield synapse. Not too ideal if you ask me. As such, I always prefer the Malanthrope inside the box. I'm basically experimenting with different combos of 3-4 Flyrants, 1-2 Dimachaerons and 1-2 Mawlocs. Going against an alpha strike army like drop pod marines is rough because they can typically down a Flyrant even through 2+ cover, and of course if you don't bubble wrap, the bastion is toast. My advice would be to try a list concept that concedes first blood against an army like that. For example, if you use your Mucolids to bubble wrap, they may very well waste some shots on it in an attempt to get first blood, and Mucolids can easily screen your bastion if you don't care whether or not the have 2+ cover. They should be looking at 4+ at worst (3+ with night fighting) but if it gets to that, they've already done their job. I would much rather give up first blood and a Mucolid than 2-3 wounds off of my Flyrant (or having my bastion exploded on turn 1, especially because the Makanthrope is likely then toast also)
I can say that I wouldnt leave him behind in the box, I'd try to keep him moving forward and I think its important to cast Dominion first turn to grab the stragglers. I'm honestly not sure how Ill play the Mucolids, but most likely DS'ing them unless I am up against a drop pod army.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
In the test run, was there any terrain (LOS), did the nids players able to cast Catalyst on the entire unit before hand, and what was the other 1000+ points of the nids army doing? The test can't be done in a vaccum. I'd love for entire Tau army to shoot at 40+ gargoyles instead of the other 3 flyrants and Zoans/etc. Maybe you didn't have enough Gargoyles, 20 is not enough to protect the flyrant on the ground. You need enough to bubble out the drop pod rapid fire range, otherwise the formation is just as useful as 1 flyrant and 2 broods of gargoyles.
I only played 2 games with the formation, but I haven't even been close to losing my warlord - IG/Knight list and Farsight list with Broadsides and Riptides. With 2 catalysts on your list, you can give FNP to 4 flyrants and 42 (how much I had). The only thing that didn't FNP was my Zoanthropes and Hive guard (as well as their pods).
Mawloc Background The Mawloc first arrived on the scene in 5th edition, along with it's serpent brother, the Trygon. Mawlocs were initially overlooked in favour of the beast that the Trygon was, with many people wishing they had taken a Trygon over a Mawloc. Come 6th edition, that argument was flipped the other way around, with the Trygon being nerfed near to the point of unusable and the Mawloc now being taken as a single disruption unit or even in multiples, depending on the rest of the army. Come 7th edition, the Mawloc suffered a slight nerf in the form of Smash being nerfed, but otherwise remained the same, doing the same job that it did before.
Competitive use The Mawloc is a peculiar unit that Tyranids have available to them, it can do damage before even showing up on the board! Let's have a look at some of the benefits of including a Mawloc in a Tyranid army.
1. Terror from the Deep. This gives the Mawloc a S6 AP2 Large Blast with Ignores Cover when it arrives from Deep Strike. This makes the Mawloc a good answer to 2+ armour save units. Better yet, if it can't be placed, Terror from the Deep repeats the same thing again! If it still can't be placed, then there is a 50% chance it goes back into Ongoing reserves, allowing it to do the same thing next turn, without suffering any damage.
2. Deployment. The Mawloc directly influences your opponents deployment by forcing units out of position. No longer can they be bunched together in cover, since a Mawloc could claim them all. Instead, an opponent has to account for the Mawloc and deploy in a manner they might not normally want to.
3. Gunline nightmare. Due to the unlimited range of the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep, it, alongside the long range Biovores, are one of the best units to use against a gunline army. In addition, it is an immediate threat once it comes up as it can charge the next turn. This means the Mawloc can act as a huge bullet magnet and allow the rest of a Tyranid army to move up the field relatively unharmed.
4. Interceptor. As Terror from the Deep is resolved in the Movement Phase, this allows you to potentially remove units that could cause harm to your other units.
5. Invisibility. This is perhaps the Mawlocs greatest asset. Since the Mawloc does not fire it's Large Blast, it can target Invisible units. Provided it doesn't scatter, it can severely reduce the damage output of a Invisible Deathstar.
6. Hit and Run. This means the Mawloc can remove itself from combat if it finds him self there. With I4, it has a 2/3 of removing itself on the opponents turn and simply Burrow on the Tyranid turn, allowing it to use Terror from the Deep. Hit and Run also allows it to act as a tarpit and hold a unit in place and when the time is right, remove itself from combat to allow the rest of the army to shoot at that unit.
7. Cheap. The Mawloc, by comparison to other Monstrous Creatures in the Codex, is the cheapest model when talking about points per wound (140 points for 6 wounds or 23.3 per wound) while also sporting a 3+ armour save.
8. Instinctive Behaviour. The Mawloc operates without Synapse just as well as within Synapse, being naturally Fearless and only a single model, it suffers no consequences when testing for Instinctive Behaviour: Feed. The only time that Instinctive Behaviour may affect a Mawloc is when it gives it Rage. If, for some reason, it would be forced to charge a unit in the Assault phase, it can simply Burrow for that turn.
The Mawloc has a place in all Tyranid armies and is a solid option overall. The only downsides to taking a Mawloc is that it can scatter off it's intended target and does not fare that well in combat, which is where it is likely to be after it comes up.
Tyrant Guard serve one single purpose; to protect the Hive Tyrant.
1. They are now 10 points cheaper.
2. More streamlined for defense.
The Tyrant Guard brood is a sturdy and good investment for any ground based Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord. With the changes to the Shieldwall rule, a guard is a 50 point pair of ablative wounds for it. One point to note is that once combined, the Hive Tyrant is unable to leave, which means that any pairing must have good synergy. This immediately cancels out buying Tyrant Guard for any flyrants in your army. So, to understand fully what this means, you can't fly, and drop pods are out of the question since it it would require 2 pods to carry the unit. It will be forced to cover any distance on foot. Now, to make a point of this, if you are not running a Swarmlord, adrenal glands are nearly mandatory for a close combat oriented tyrant guard brood in order to ensure that you waste as little time as possible in the open. This helps to add extra durability by keeping them sweeping from assault to assault with fleet, spending as little time as possible in the open to be shot by your opponents high strength high AP weaponry.
Now, when you get down to it, the Tyrant Guard serve only in 2 specific functions. You bring them along to ensure that your Hive Tyrant survives from point A to point B, or as a combat multiplier. A brood of 3 stock guard are a good insurance policy for a Swarmlord or tooled out Hive Tyrant with Reaper, etc. These are serious point investments and an extra 6 wounds will ensure that they absorb plenty of punishment. Another option is if you have a walkrant and you plan for it to go after vehicles. Armed with a venom cannon, it would not be out of the question to take a single or pair of guard with a single or even both with crushing claws to add extra damage for vehicles. The trick at this point is to try and conserve points between the two to ensure you don't wind up with a too expensive unit that may take longer than expected to make back its points. A tyrant going after characters or multi-wound MCs would never leave home without several guard armed with the LW/BS combo to give the unit multiple attacks coming in at I7 with a good chance to ID.
Now, one last thing to mention is that you can purposefully make a suicide tyrant unit. Just keep the tyrant stock and keep it to the front of a brood of LW/BS guards. Allow it to tank rounds and avoid using the auto-passing LOS rule until it gets to a single wound. At which point, by the time you enter melee, you will have a very vulnerable tyrant that might just die in overwatch. At which point, you have 3 very angry Tyrant Guard in assault. That will be 15 S6 attacks at I7 with Rending/ID on 6s. Not much will live since you can hit most units on 3s.
Grades: B- (CrushGuard), B- (LW/BS Guard), C (Vanilla)
Game number two down trying out double tyrannocytes and triple flyrants using a single cad/ leviathan detachment.
It's so strong but a word of warning, look out for Wraith guard with D-Scythes. Totally forgot about them and ended up losing a Flyrant in flight mode, a Carnifex and a Tyrannocyte all on in turn thanks to their ID on a 6.
SHUPPET wrote: I might be missing something about the Swarmlord that might make it a lot better than I think it is - I've seen this mention of him getting a 2+ save from the Malanthrope twice now - how is this? If this is the case I think I might have to change my opinion, that makes a big difference from 3+.
he gets a 2+ save from the malanthrope like any other model gets a 2+ save from the malanthrope: shrouding.
edit: still groggy, someone may have addressed this and i just didn't see it.
jy2 wrote: Where do barbed Heirodules fit into the new, new Nids then? do they have a place?
YES! See my review above.
I agree. They are pretty much what Rupture Cannon TFexes should be, durable S10 shooting, and can tear it up in assault.
Just wondering, can they take a drop pod? Battle scribe lists it as an option, but that can't be right can it... I don't know that it would make them much better,but I do know it doesn't make much sense thematically lol
GC can take a pod, though you should probably expect some wailing and gnashing of teeth from your opponent. page 70, brb: 'GC are monstrous creatures (pg 67) that have the following additional rules and exceptions' etc. you'll just have to abide by the rest of the rules for the pod, which means the unit has to be completely within 6" of the pod when it deploys. the 'duyles are on 5" bases and should be the only ones that will fit.
i wouldn't do this with a barby as that negates the whole point (high S long ranged shooting at volume), but a scythed, sure. hellstorm precision drop turn 2, again turn 3 and then charge.
really it's no worse than getting MoA and infiltrating them turn 1.
SHUPPET wrote: I might be missing something about the Swarmlord that might make it a lot better than I think it is - I've seen this mention of him getting a 2+ save from the Malanthrope twice now - how is this? If this is the case I think I might have to change my opinion, that makes a big difference from 3+.
I'm guessing she's dipping a toe into a ruin, plus Shrouding...
^ Am I the only one who refers to most Tyranids as she's?
In fact the only males I have are Tyrants, Lictors, Trygons, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard and Genestealers. Everyone else I refer to as female. It irks me to no end when people call Tervigons males.
Iechine wrote: ^ Am I the only one who refers to most Tyranids as she's?
In fact the only males I have are Tyrants, Lictors, Trygons, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard and Genestealers. Everyone else I refer to as female. It irks me to no end when people call Tervigons males.
Iechine wrote: ^ Am I the only one who refers to most Tyranids as she's?
In fact the only males I have are Tyrants, Lictors, Trygons, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard and Genestealers. Everyone else I refer to as female. It irks me to no end when people call Tervigons males.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
In the test run, was there any terrain (LOS), did the nids players able to cast Catalyst on the entire unit before hand, and what was the other 1000+ points of the nids army doing? The test can't be done in a vaccum. I'd love for entire Tau army to shoot at 40+ gargoyles instead of the other 3 flyrants and Zoans/etc. Maybe you didn't have enough Gargoyles, 20 is not enough to protect the flyrant on the ground. You need enough to bubble out the drop pod rapid fire range, otherwise the formation is just as useful as 1 flyrant and 2 broods of gargoyles.
It wasn't a terribly meaningful test. I figured in 90% of the lists running Skytyrant, that is going to be the biggest threat to Riptides, and to a lesser extent broadsides. So a Tau gunline is going to have very few reasons to shoot at anything else. I did give them FNP for the purpose of the test, figuring that I would roll catalyst on one of my 3 Flyrants.
We know that Skytyrant isn't going to help us against most Vehicle MSU lists, and those lists are in right now. However that doesn't mean the formation isn't viable. For instance, LAN biovores don't help against Vehicle spam, but they are so amazingly effective against infantry that we figure they are generally worth it. If Skytyrant was a similarly powerful counter to Tau gunline, it would be worth taking a bit of a hit vs Vehicle spam.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
Your failing a lot of 2+ LOS!, then 2+ Jinks or cover saves of 3+ to 5+. I am wondering it this might be a good candidate for an RC Tyrant, it is already AP2 so you just need the claws for that +1 to rip through the knights. Maybe with AG, for S7 on the charge so you can glance on 5's punch through on 6.
Hey fellow 'nid players, I've been watching this thread a long time and I'm glad to see the barbed hierodule is finally getting some attention - I've been using him for the better part of a year now and he's become a mainstay in my lists (unless we aren't running LoW at my shop, or im trying something new).
What I find though is you can anchor him down and buff him much cheaper by getting a bastion w/ ammo dump upgrade and a venomthrope to embark inside it. I'll usually deploy the bastion at the front of my deployment zone wherever its got best line of sight, and plop the big guy right on top. Battlements count as ruins, so he has a 2+ cover save with the thrope in the building and basically can't be assaulted as far as I know since nobody else fits up on top with him.
Ammo dump lets him reroll those 1's in shooting, and his forward position makes him a big threat. The bastion with thrope lets me hide a flyrant and things for the first turn, and him being that high up lets him get clean shots off downfield over your own models pretty easily.
Edit: the only issue I have yet to figure out rules-wise is how he gets OFF the building short of it detonating. He cant embark into the building being a GC and 7th got rid of rules for leaping off structures, but I usually don't want to move him anyway.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
Your failing a lot of 2+ LOS!, then 2+ Jinks or cover saves of 3+ to 5+. I am wondering it this might be a good candidate for an RC Tyrant, it is already AP2 so you just need the claws for that +1 to rip through the knights. Maybe with AG, for S7 on the charge so you can glance on 5's punch through on 6.
I should have been more specific. All 30 Gargoyles died before the Tyrant. I was keeping the Tyrant near the back. Once the Malanthrope went down, the Gargs started dying pretty quickly. I should have left the Malanthrope in my backfield in ruins for a 2+, and conga lined the gargoyles back, but I tried to move him between pieces of terrain, and didn't get quite there on my run, so he just had a 3+ cover on turn 2, and died to the first burstide when I failed a bunch of saves. My attempt to stay in terrain left me with an 8" turn 2 charge when turned into 11" after overwatch. If I had made the charge, I probably would have killed 1 riptide.
ETA. It was a dumb not representative test. We were just wasting times while waiting for our opponents to finish up a game.
ETA2. My theory hammer leads me to believe a Reaper of Obliterax (+1 Strength) + Rending Claws + Electroshock Grubs is the way to go. 260 points, but it is pretty well protected.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: drop pods are out of the question since it it would require 2 pods to carry the unit.
The Tyrant Guards and the Tyrant/Swarmlord can join after disembarking from their pods.
The problem is the price. You will pay an extra 150 points, which is the cost of another full brood of guards for something that is going to come onboard after the start, closer to the enemy. Guards are designed to be an ablative shield. Why bother wasting the point of them by justifying another expenditure. Sure, they will all come in relatively unharmed, but there is the chance that they could not come in together, which leads to problems. Taking out any form of podding justifies guards and saves points. You want to take pods, grab a dakkarant and call it done with a more expensive synaptic dakkafex. When the swarmlord review comes out, that will cover pods for it being an option, but in a tyrant guard review, pods are what you are not after.
That's good thinking Prodigous with the ammo dump.
Barby is definitely InControl's signature model and I like the way he pushes him up the board to threaten assault, making use of his destructive capability and 12" movespeed, and getting full value out of the model. That being said, I think he's still probably worth his points even if you just use him for shooting, especially with ammo dump! I'm going to finish painting up my Barby sometime soon and use him much more often, I think that's two excellent styles of play and I'll have to experiment a lot with both. What do you think best compliments his style of sitting back and forcing the enemy to push up if they want to deal with his massive firepower? I imagine Biovores would compliment him quite well.
Hey Guys, first time posting. I've been reading a lot of posts here and am really enjoying learning more about my Tyranids from all of you. I have a quick question, why does everyone take electroshock grubs on their flyrants? is it to threaten vehicles above av12?
Yeah and due to lack of other ways to deal with them even being present anywhere in the army. We are remarkably low on S8+. That being said, eGrubs are less important now, with Dakkafex getting pods, however unless you are running a few of them, it's probably going to be worth the pick up.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
Your failing a lot of 2+ LOS!, then 2+ Jinks or cover saves of 3+ to 5+. I am wondering it this might be a good candidate for an RC Tyrant, it is already AP2 so you just need the claws for that +1 to rip through the knights. Maybe with AG, for S7 on the charge so you can glance on 5's punch through on 6.
I should have been more specific. All 30 Gargoyles died before the Tyrant. I was keeping the Tyrant near the back. Once the Malanthrope went down, the Gargs started dying pretty quickly. I should have left the Malanthrope in my backfield in ruins for a 2+, and conga lined the gargoyles back, but I tried to move him between pieces of terrain, and didn't get quite there on my run, so he just had a 3+ cover on turn 2, and died to the first burstide when I failed a bunch of saves. My attempt to stay in terrain left me with an 8" turn 2 charge when turned into 11" after overwatch. If I had made the charge, I probably would have killed 1 riptide.
ETA. It was a dumb not representative test. We were just wasting times while waiting for our opponents to finish up a game.
ETA2. My theory hammer leads me to believe a Reaper of Obliterax (+1 Strength) + Rending Claws + Electroshock Grubs is the way to go. 260 points, but it is pretty well protected.
At the same time - it makes me think that the Skytyrant's flock needs to go big or stay home.
I agree it's a place for an assault-based tyrant; not being able to swoop means the only safe place is in your opponent's face, and you don't want to be wasting the damage potential of 20+ gargoyles (which isn't bad, even if it's just fleshborer fire).
I'm personally thinking:
- Adrenal Glands. You've got to close the distance, fast, so Fleet is crucial, even if it is damn expensive to give it to a big Gargoyle flock. Plus, S4 on the charge means the Gargoyles can potentially glance light armour.
- Toxin Sacs. Because poison is a nice thing for disassembling wraithknights and riptides (S7 means reroll to wound on the charge)
- The Maw-Claws. Because they're only 5 points more than rending claws, which give you a nice bit of antiarmour potential - but Preferred Enemy will transfer to the entire flock....
Should do okay at ripping up monsters and medium armour, provided they're not characters. Also, don't underestimate Blinding Venom off the gargoyles...
Been playing around with a concept for a flyer swarm:
I know that a more competitive list would include a venomthrope or malanthrope 'launch pad' for the monstrous creatures, but I'm going for a 'not a foot to touch the earth' approach...
i figure deploy the disposable (i.e. recycling) gargoyle broods to provide the Skytyrant with a save. The flyers.... dunno. Deploy in cover if I can find enough, otherwise keep them in reserve?
I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
Noctem wrote: I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
Quite simply, people could buy two online. Then log out and buy two more. Repeat for many books - and much profit. I was lucky I'm quite good friends with the GW employee, they was able to hide a copy for me - very handy when there were only two copies in store for people (mine included).
Noctem wrote: I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
Noctem wrote: I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
I tried 3 local shops and tried to preorder it at 2 online ones on the day it was available for pre-order; no-one had the hardcover book or could pre-order. The local shops didn't even get any at all. So thanks to some greedy gits having to resell it for stupidly high prices, I guess I'll have to settle for a softcover instead.
Quick question: If I make my Skytyrant my warlord and purchase Fighter Ace, am I allowed to keep my warlord 12" away from the table edge and take all my gargoyles into Ongoing? From the wording of the Fighter Ace table, it seems legit. Hmm...
Saythings wrote: Quick question: If I make my Skytyrant my warlord and purchase Fighter Ace, am I allowed to keep my warlord 12" away from the table edge and take all my gargoyles into Ongoing? From the wording of the Fighter Ace table, it seems legit. Hmm...
Always looking for those loopholes xD
I'd say no - and here is why: The fighter ace upgrade is for a model, not unit. The skytyrant model has the permission (permissive ruleset) to leave the table under a specific set of circumstances. The unit he is with does not. As such, without specific permission for him to leave the unit (permissive ruleset) or the unit to leave the table along with him (which they do not have), the skytyrant could not make use of the "sudden escape" ability until such time as all the gargoyles in the unit were no longer alive and part of that unit.
That was my first thought, but A.G. on Gargoyles is so expensive for a unit that is going to have a high target priority and be hemorrhaging gargoyles quickly.
That was my first thought, but A.G. on Gargoyles is so expensive for a unit that is going to have a high target priority and be hemorrhaging gargoyles quickly.
Agreed. Keep them cheap and move up as quickly as possible, if need be move 6" in the movement phase to get a re-roll on assault distance (and HoW on the gargoyles).
Saythings wrote: Quick question: If I make my Skytyrant my warlord and purchase Fighter Ace, am I allowed to keep my warlord 12" away from the table edge and take all my gargoyles into Ongoing? From the wording of the Fighter Ace table, it seems legit. Hmm...
Always looking for those loopholes xD
I'd say no - and here is why: The fighter ace upgrade is for a model, not unit. The skytyrant model has the permission (permissive ruleset) to leave the table under a specific set of circumstances. The unit he is with does not. As such, without specific permission for him to leave the unit (permissive ruleset) or the unit to leave the table along with him (which they do not have), the skytyrant could not make use of the "sudden escape" ability until such time as all the gargoyles in the unit were no longer alive and part of that unit.
Agreed.
It's like a unit of terminators with a non-terminator Space Marine captain in it. Because the captain cannot deepstrike, then the whole unit cannot deepstrike as well. And even though the captain can do a Sweeping Advance in close combat, but the unit can't because there are models in it that can't.
Noctem wrote: I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
My friend who runs a gaming store told me that GW is out of stock themselves. That's probably why it is being sold on ebay for a premium. When your store runs out, it'll probably be a while before it can get more in.
jifel wrote: Has no one signed up for Ripper swarms yet? I'm surprised they're still open, but I'll write them if they are.
Ok, it's all yours.
Rotaxus wrote: Hey Guys, first time posting. I've been reading a lot of posts here and am really enjoying learning more about my Tyranids from all of you. I have a quick question, why does everyone take electroshock grubs on their flyrants? is it to threaten vehicles above av12?
Yes, and also to deal with Imperial Knights. We don't have much that can deal with those knights.
At the same time - it makes me think that the Skytyrant's flock needs to go big or stay home.
I agree it's a place for an assault-based tyrant; not being able to swoop means the only safe place is in your opponent's face, and you don't want to be wasting the damage potential of 20+ gargoyles (which isn't bad, even if it's just fleshborer fire).
I'm personally thinking:
- Adrenal Glands. You've got to close the distance, fast, so Fleet is crucial, even if it is damn expensive to give it to a big Gargoyle flock. Plus, S4 on the charge means the Gargoyles can potentially glance light armour.
- Toxin Sacs. Because poison is a nice thing for disassembling wraithknights and riptides (S7 means reroll to wound on the charge)
- The Maw-Claws. Because they're only 5 points more than rending claws, which give you a nice bit of antiarmour potential - but Preferred Enemy will transfer to the entire flock....
Should do okay at ripping up monsters and medium armour, provided they're not characters. Also, don't underestimate Blinding Venom off the gargoyles...
Been playing around with a concept for a flyer swarm:
I know that a more competitive list would include a venomthrope or malanthrope 'launch pad' for the monstrous creatures, but I'm going for a 'not a foot to touch the earth' approach...
i figure deploy the disposable (i.e. recycling) gargoyle broods to provide the Skytyrant with a save. The flyers.... dunno. Deploy in cover if I can find enough, otherwise keep them in reserve?
Personally, I wouldn't give the gargoyles any upgrades at all. Just keep them cheap and as expendable wounds. Spend the extra points on the rest of the army.
So is Regenerate a valid option for a SkyTyrant? Keep him at the front to jink/LoS wounds away, and if he loses a couple wounds move him back to regenerate. The bodies of the gargoyles will keep him protected until he!'a back up to full, which he can then move back up to tank more wounds.
I get the keep 'em cheap mindset - after all, adrenal glands are 1/3 the price of another bug. I was just concerned about an assaulty unit without fleet...
On the other hand, that alone gives me 15 more gargoyles, either in the tyrant's screen or in the skyblight units - I can see 15 man broods being a damn sight nore useful.
Alternatively, I could take a fighter ace upgrade, But not sure how much use it would be...
Sinful Hero wrote: So is Regenerate a valid option for a SkyTyrant? Keep him at the front to jink/LoS wounds away, and if he loses a couple wounds move him back to regenerate. The bodies of the gargoyles will keep him protected until he!'a back up to full, which he can then move back up to tank more wounds.
My brain and heart disagree on this. I am actually leaning toward yes, because you can keep the flyrant out front and Jink for a 2+, and aren't losing any gargoyles for a few turns.
However, once you are in assault, Something is either going to kill the tyrant or die to it. You aren't often going to take 1 wound and survive.
Regen bumps a Tyrant up to 290 points (Tyrant with Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.grubs, Regen) . I just don't know if it is worth 290 points. It can basically end anything with a toughness value that doesn't have EW, and with Regen becomes an amazingly durable unit so long as you aren't facing ignore cover. It might Kill 1 Knight, but wouldn't survive 2 of them, and GW's rules writing have ensured that 3 Knights are everywhere these days. It can pop a Wave serpent a turn, but struggles with a Deff Dread. I'm having a rougher time figuring out where this formation fits into list than any other Tyranid formation.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
Your failing a lot of 2+ LOS!, then 2+ Jinks or cover saves of 3+ to 5+. I am wondering it this might be a good candidate for an RC Tyrant, it is already AP2 so you just need the claws for that +1 to rip through the knights. Maybe with AG, for S7 on the charge so you can glance on 5's punch through on 6.
I should have been more specific. All 30 Gargoyles died before the Tyrant. I was keeping the Tyrant near the back. Once the Malanthrope went down, the Gargs started dying pretty quickly. I should have left the Malanthrope in my backfield in ruins for a 2+, and conga lined the gargoyles back, but I tried to move him between pieces of terrain, and didn't get quite there on my run, so he just had a 3+ cover on turn 2, and died to the first burstide when I failed a bunch of saves. My attempt to stay in terrain left me with an 8" turn 2 charge when turned into 11" after overwatch. If I had made the charge, I probably would have killed 1 riptide.
ETA. It was a dumb not representative test. We were just wasting times while waiting for our opponents to finish up a game.
ETA2. My theory hammer leads me to believe a Reaper of Obliterax (+1 Strength) + Rending Claws + Electroshock Grubs is the way to go. 260 points, but it is pretty well protected.
At the same time - it makes me think that the Skytyrant's flock needs to go big or stay home. I agree it's a place for an assault-based tyrant; not being able to swoop means the only safe place is in your opponent's face, and you don't want to be wasting the damage potential of 20+ gargoyles (which isn't bad, even if it's just fleshborer fire).
I'm personally thinking: - Adrenal Glands. You've got to close the distance, fast, so Fleet is crucial, even if it is damn expensive to give it to a big Gargoyle flock. Plus, S4 on the charge means the Gargoyles can potentially glance light armour. - Toxin Sacs. Because poison is a nice thing for disassembling wraithknights and riptides (S7 means reroll to wound on the charge) - The Maw-Claws. Because they're only 5 points more than rending claws, which give you a nice bit of antiarmour potential - but Preferred Enemy will transfer to the entire flock....
Should do okay at ripping up monsters and medium armour, provided they're not characters. Also, don't underestimate Blinding Venom off the gargoyles...
Been playing around with a concept for a flyer swarm:
I know that a more competitive list would include a venomthrope or malanthrope 'launch pad' for the monstrous creatures, but I'm going for a 'not a foot to touch the earth' approach... i figure deploy the disposable (i.e. recycling) gargoyle broods to provide the Skytyrant with a save. The flyers.... dunno. Deploy in cover if I can find enough, otherwise keep them in reserve?
Looks pretty cool. But I'd want to spend extra on Glands for the recycling Gargoyles...if they can come back, the cost is easier to justify. ( most likely you should save the points though)
Here's 40k Brawls latest rep making use of the Tyrannocytes, leviathan detatchment and fighter ace upgrade vs serpant spam.
Please enjoy!
Spoiler:
Interesting. Tyrants demolished the serpents. It ran counter to my experience, so I tracked it a bit.
Shooting Devourers at a front or side of a serpent should do 1.78 hull points, but with holo fields they jink 2/3 of those away for a net of 0.59 Hull points. If they do E.Grubs rather than 1 Devourer that goes up to 1.13 hull points.
Turn 1, 2 Tyrants, Kill a serpent with Devourers. Should have done 1.19 Hull points. Another Tyrant does nothing should have done 0.59 Hull points. Expected: 1.78 Actual 3. Turn 2, 2 Tyrants kill a serpent (in range of E.grubs). Should have done 2.26 Hull points. Also, the Tyrannocyte shot at dire avengers instead of a Serpent which was closer. Expected: 4.04 Actual 6. Turn 3, 1 Tyrant kills a serpent (in range of E.grubs), Should have done 1.13 Hull points. Crone + Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) kill a Wave serpent, should have done 1.63 hull points. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9. Turn 4, 1 Tyrant fails to hurt a serpent should have done 0.59. Expected: 7.38 Actual 9. Turn 5, 1 Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) does 2 hullpoints. Should have done 1.13. Expected: 8.52 Actual 11.
Basically the tyrants got pretty lucky, but only 23% above average. It just seemed flashy.
Here's 40k Brawls latest rep making use of the Tyrannocytes, leviathan detatchment and fighter ace upgrade vs serpant spam.
Please enjoy!
Spoiler:
Interesting. Tyrants demolished the serpents. It ran counter to my experience, so I tracked it a bit.
Shooting Devourers at a front or side of a serpent should do 1.78 hull points, but with holo fields they jink 2/3 of those away for a net of 0.59 Hull points.
If they do E.Grubs rather than 1 Devourer that goes up to 1.13 hull points.
Turn 1, 2 Tyrants, Kill a serpent with Devourers. Should have done 1.19 Hull points. Another Tyrant does nothing should have done 0.59 Hull points. Expected: 1.78 Actual 3.
Turn 2, 2 Tyrants kill a serpent (in range of E.grubs). Should have done 2.26 Hull points. Also, the Tyrannocyte shot at dire avengers instead of a Serpent which was closer. Expected: 4.04 Actual 6.
Turn 3, 1 Tyrant kills a serpent (in range of E.grubs), Should have done 1.13 Hull points. Crone + Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) kill a Wave serpent, should have done 1.63 hull points. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9.
Turn 4, 1 Tyrant fails to hurt a serpent should have done 0.59. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9. Expected: 7.38 Actual 9.
Turn 5, 1 Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) does 2 hullpoints. Should have done 1.13. Expected: 8.52 Actual 11.
Basically the tyrants got pretty lucky, but only 23% above average. It just seemed flashy.
^ I love this. I'm so glad someone had the time both to watch and record his findings. I know personally I do not have his luck, but I'll go on breathing knowing his rolls weren't "that" lucky and was only 23% over the expected.
Example of MY luck: 5 Zoans deep strike from pod in front arc of Imperial Knight. Guess where his shield is going (I wanted his side arcs to be shieldless against my Flyrants' dakka).
All 5 hit! Five 3+ rolls on my BS!
4 pens and 1 glance! BOOYAH!
All five shots get deflected by his 4++ invuln.
Just think you were unlucky Saythings. Knights are a tricky foe for Tyranids to take down (it's also helpful that Knights can't really do much to our ace Flyrants)
On the subject of luck, here's mine:
One ripper base in CC with Riptide.
Ripper attacks, hits once. Roll to wound, gets the 6 required Riptide fails the 2+ armour save! No worries has FnP. Fails the FnP!
Right, time to get vengeance on those Rippers. Rolls a 1,1,2 to hit. Then rolls a 9 for Ld. End result? Ends up being overrun by the lowly Ripper Swarm.
My recent luck. Between 3 consecutive games I had 4 squads of rippers mishap and die. Only 2 Squads made it to the board alive, and one of those mishapped and was misplaced. My Rippers like to scatter. In one of those games I had a Tyrannocyte roll 13 hits on 15 scatters for his VC.
Here's 40k Brawls latest rep making use of the Tyrannocytes, leviathan detatchment and fighter ace upgrade vs serpant spam.
Please enjoy!
Spoiler:
Interesting. Tyrants demolished the serpents. It ran counter to my experience, so I tracked it a bit.
Shooting Devourers at a front or side of a serpent should do 1.78 hull points, but with holo fields they jink 2/3 of those away for a net of 0.59 Hull points.
If they do E.Grubs rather than 1 Devourer that goes up to 1.13 hull points.
Turn 1, 2 Tyrants, Kill a serpent with Devourers. Should have done 1.19 Hull points. Another Tyrant does nothing should have done 0.59 Hull points. Expected: 1.78 Actual 3.
Turn 2, 2 Tyrants kill a serpent (in range of E.grubs). Should have done 2.26 Hull points. Also, the Tyrannocyte shot at dire avengers instead of a Serpent which was closer. Expected: 4.04 Actual 6.
Turn 3, 1 Tyrant kills a serpent (in range of E.grubs), Should have done 1.13 Hull points. Crone + Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) kill a Wave serpent, should have done 1.63 hull points. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9.
Turn 4, 1 Tyrant fails to hurt a serpent should have done 0.59. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9. Expected: 7.38 Actual 9.
Turn 5, 1 Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) does 2 hullpoints. Should have done 1.13. Expected: 8.52 Actual 11.
Basically the tyrants got pretty lucky, but only 23% above average. It just seemed flashy.
^ I love this. I'm so glad someone had the time both to watch and record his findings. I know personally I do not have his luck, but I'll go on breathing knowing his rolls weren't "that" lucky and was only 23% over the expected.
Example of MY luck: 5 Zoans deep strike from pod in front arc of Imperial Knight. Guess where his shield is going (I wanted his side arcs to be shieldless against my Flyrants' dakka).
All 5 hit! Five 3+ rolls on my BS!
4 pens and 1 glance! BOOYAH!
All five shots get deflected by his 4++ invuln.
Well played, Imperial Knight. Well played.
That's not bad luck at all, that's a misplayed rule. Imperial Knight change their shield during the Shooting phase, while Zoanthropes resolve their shooting attacks during the psychic phase, before the shooting phase. Therefore, Imperial Knights can't change the facing of their shield until after you've blown him up with Zoeys.
Frozocrone wrote: Just think you were unlucky Saythings. Knights are a tricky foe for Tyranids to take down (it's also helpful that Knights can't really do much to our ace Flyrants)
On the subject of luck, here's mine:
One ripper base in CC with Riptide.
Ripper attacks, hits once. Roll to wound, gets the 6 required Riptide fails the 2+ armour save! No worries has FnP. Fails the FnP!
Right, time to get vengeance on those Rippers. Rolls a 1,1,2 to hit. Then rolls a 9 for Ld. End result? Ends up being overrun by the lowly Ripper Swarm.
It was a good day to be a Tyranid player.
That's...amazing.
My luck story: 2 Zoanthropes fire Warp Lance at Relic Sicaran. Successful, but periled. Takes off 1 of 2 remaining hull points. Roll on peril chart, roll a 6 on the Zoa, go berserk mode and run at the Relic Sicaran. Hit it with SMASH, end up being successful and taking the last hull point off terminating the Relic Sicaran. He was pissed to say the least.
TL;DR Zoanthrope rage periled, smacked Relic Sicaran with fleshy head sac, destroyed the Sicaran.
Frozocrone wrote: Just think you were unlucky Saythings. Knights are a tricky foe for Tyranids to take down (it's also helpful that Knights can't really do much to our ace Flyrants)
On the subject of luck, here's mine:
One ripper base in CC with Riptide.
Ripper attacks, hits once. Roll to wound, gets the 6 required Riptide fails the 2+ armour save! No worries has FnP. Fails the FnP!
Right, time to get vengeance on those Rippers. Rolls a 1,1,2 to hit. Then rolls a 9 for Ld. End result? Ends up being overrun by the lowly Ripper Swarm.
It was a good day to be a Tyranid player.
That's...amazing.
My luck story: 2 Zoanthropes fire Warp Lance at Relic Sicaran. Successful, but periled. Takes off 1 of 2 remaining hull points. Roll on peril chart, roll a 6 on the Zoa, go berserk mode and run at the Relic Sicaran. Hit it with SMASH, end up being successful and taking the last hull point off terminating the Relic Sicaran. He was pissed to say the least.
TL;DR Zoanthrope rage periled, smacked Relic Sicaran with fleshy head sac, destroyed the Sicaran.
The only thing better than killing a riptide is watching one of those big lugs jet packing off the table in fear
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although ID'ing it in close combat is close second. "He was there, unscratched like 1 second ago. . .":?
Purpose:
The Sky Slasher Swarm has three main purposes; screening, light infantry hunting, and Monster hunting. While the Sky Slasher Swarm is highly comparable to the more commonly seen gargoyle there are a few discrepancies that give the Sky Slasher Swarm a slight edge, specifically in upgrade costs and damage output.
Biomorphs:
-Spinefists: The Sky Slasher Swarm is the absolute best creature in the codex to take this biomorph do to it's natural speed and attack characteristic. The spinefist is easily the best upgrade for this creature as it's meager profile becomes much stronger with an effective 24" range and 56% hit rate. (The natural Twin-Linking of the weapon greatly offsets the natural ballistic skill of the Swarm. This biomorph makes the Sky Slasher Swarm perfect for fighting T3 enemies, which unfortunately for this unit the Tyranid codex has no innate need for this niche.
-Toxin Sacs: This biomorph allows Sky Slasher Swarms to handle Monstrous Creatures. With the speed of sky slashers it becomes much easier to catch and tarpit enemy MCs while stripping wounds off them due to the amount of poison attacks put out by this unit. Once more, fighting monstrous creatures is a role unneeded by most Tyranid lists.
-Adrenal Glands: While this biomorph increases the speed of the Swarm to the level of Raveners, the natural ability of the Sky Slasher Swarm to win fights through attrition is not aided by this biomorph. While Adrenal Glandsndo allow this creature to wreck light vehicles through glances, it does not even allow the unit to do so efficiently. For its current cost, this upgrade should be avoided.
--------------
While the Sky Slasher Swarm excels in targetting light infantry and tarpitting MCs, this creature does not generally see play due to the natural ability of the Tyranid codex to handle such threats. Where the Sky Slasher does shine is in its ability to screen for other units. The height and shape of modelling three flying rippers to a base allows the model to recieve and grant cover much more easier than any other screening unit you can purchase in the book. The unit's ability to ignore terrain and its natural speed also lend to this purpose.
Grades:
B- (stock), C+ (Spinefists) C (Toxin Sacs)
Frozocrone wrote: Just think you were unlucky Saythings. Knights are a tricky foe for Tyranids to take down (it's also helpful that Knights can't really do much to our ace Flyrants)
On the subject of luck, here's mine:
One ripper base in CC with Riptide.
Ripper attacks, hits once. Roll to wound, gets the 6 required Riptide fails the 2+ armour save! No worries has FnP. Fails the FnP!
Right, time to get vengeance on those Rippers. Rolls a 1,1,2 to hit. Then rolls a 9 for Ld. End result? Ends up being overrun by the lowly Ripper Swarm.
It was a good day to be a Tyranid player.
"Nothing more creepy than a Tyrant doing a "Happy Dance" "Brrrr"
Purpose:
The Sky Slasher Swarm has three main purposes; screening, light infantry hunting, and Monster hunting. While the Sky Slasher Swarm is highly comparable to the more commonly seen gargoyle there are a few discrepancies that give the Sky Slasher Swarm a slight edge, specifically in upgrade costs and damage output.
Biomorphs:
-Spinefists: The Sky Slasher Swarm is the absolute best creature in the codex to take this biomorph do to it's natural speed and attack characteristic. The spinefist is easily the best upgrade for this creature as it's meager profile becomes much stronger with an effective 24" range and 56% hit rate. (The natural Twin-Linking of the weapon greatly offsets the natural ballistic skill of the Swarm. This biomorph makes the Sky Slasher Swarm perfect for fighting T3 enemies, which unfortunately for this unit the Tyranid codex has no innate need for this niche.
-Toxin Sacs: This biomorph allows Sky Slasher Swarms to handle Monstrous Creatures. With the speed of sky slashers it becomes much easier to catch and tarpit enemy MCs while stripping wounds off them due to the amount of poison attacks put out by this unit. Once more, fighting monstrous creatures is a role unneeded by most Tyranid lists.
-Adrenal Glands: While this biomorph increases the speed of the Swarm to the level of Raveners, the natural ability of the Sky Slasher Swarm to win fights through attrition is not aided by this biomorph. While Adrenal Glandsndo allow this creature to wreck light vehicles through glances, it does not even allow the unit to do so efficiently. For its current cost, this upgrade should be avoided.
--------------
While the Sky Slasher Swarm excels in targetting light infantry and tarpitting MCs, this creature does not generally see play due to the natural ability of the Tyranid codex to handle such threats. Where the Sky Slasher does shine is in its ability to screen for other units. The height and shape of modelling three flying rippers to a base allows the model to recieve and grant cover much more easier than any other screening unit you can purchase in the book. The unit's ability to ignore terrain and its natural speed also lend to this purpose.
Grades:
B- (stock), C+ (Spinefists) C (Toxin Sacs)
Raveners can also take spinefists and are generally better in every way.
Purpose:
The Sky Slasher Swarm has three main purposes; screening, light infantry hunting, and Monster hunting. While the Sky Slasher Swarm is highly comparable to the more commonly seen gargoyle there are a few discrepancies that give the Sky Slasher Swarm a slight edge, specifically in upgrade costs and damage output.
Biomorphs:
-Spinefists: The Sky Slasher Swarm is the absolute best creature in the codex to take this biomorph do to it's natural speed and attack characteristic. The spinefist is easily the best upgrade for this creature as it's meager profile becomes much stronger with an effective 24" range and 56% hit rate. (The natural Twin-Linking of the weapon greatly offsets the natural ballistic skill of the Swarm. This biomorph makes the Sky Slasher Swarm perfect for fighting T3 enemies, which unfortunately for this unit the Tyranid codex has no innate need for this niche.
-Toxin Sacs: This biomorph allows Sky Slasher Swarms to handle Monstrous Creatures. With the speed of sky slashers it becomes much easier to catch and tarpit enemy MCs while stripping wounds off them due to the amount of poison attacks put out by this unit. Once more, fighting monstrous creatures is a role unneeded by most Tyranid lists.
-Adrenal Glands: While this biomorph increases the speed of the Swarm to the level of Raveners, the natural ability of the Sky Slasher Swarm to win fights through attrition is not aided by this biomorph. While Adrenal Glandsndo allow this creature to wreck light vehicles through glances, it does not even allow the unit to do so efficiently. For its current cost, this upgrade should be avoided.
--------------
While the Sky Slasher Swarm excels in targetting light infantry and tarpitting MCs, this creature does not generally see play due to the natural ability of the Tyranid codex to handle such threats. Where the Sky Slasher does shine is in its ability to screen for other units. The height and shape of modelling three flying rippers to a base allows the model to recieve and grant cover much more easier than any other screening unit you can purchase in the book. The unit's ability to ignore terrain and its natural speed also lend to this purpose.
Grades:
B- (stock), C+ (Spinefists) C (Toxin Sacs)
Raveners can also take spinefists and are generally better in every way.
Frozocrone wrote: Just think you were unlucky Saythings. Knights are a tricky foe for Tyranids to take down (it's also helpful that Knights can't really do much to our ace Flyrants)
On the subject of luck, here's mine:
One ripper base in CC with Riptide.
Ripper attacks, hits once. Roll to wound, gets the 6 required Riptide fails the 2+ armour save! No worries has FnP. Fails the FnP!
Right, time to get vengeance on those Rippers. Rolls a 1,1,2 to hit. Then rolls a 9 for Ld. End result? Ends up being overrun by the lowly Ripper Swarm.
It was a good day to be a Tyranid player.
"Nothing more creepy than a Tyrant doing a "Happy Dance" "Brrrr"
My apologies, I was just extremely happy at that battle that I didn't care about the score in the end (won 11-0 but still). Agreed with my opponent never to talk about it with mutual friends, but hey, I don't think he's on DakkaDakka
Gargs obviously outweigh them in durability, but I'm curious what Skyslashers can do offensively. In equal points, anyone capable of doing statistics could maybe compare Skyslashers to Shrikes and Gargs?
Other thoughts: Hypertoxic Node Hive Tyrant with a Miasma Cannon? If I'm reading it right, that would benefit from Hypertoxic too...
Taking that plus a heavy biocannon of some variety makes for a nice shooty tyrant.
Either Devourers or the Stranglethorn Cannon to match the range. Miasma Cannon is only good against nonvehicles, so might as well double down.
I always thought it was funny that a Tyrant couldn't take Double Venom Cannons, Stranglethorns, or a Venom/Strangle combo, but they can take any of them with a Miasma Cannon which is more or less like a third variant of the long-range biocannons.
Here's 40k Brawls latest rep making use of the Tyrannocytes, leviathan detatchment and fighter ace upgrade vs serpant spam.
Please enjoy!
Spoiler:
Interesting. Tyrants demolished the serpents. It ran counter to my experience, so I tracked it a bit.
Shooting Devourers at a front or side of a serpent should do 1.78 hull points, but with holo fields they jink 2/3 of those away for a net of 0.59 Hull points.
If they do E.Grubs rather than 1 Devourer that goes up to 1.13 hull points.
Turn 1, 2 Tyrants, Kill a serpent with Devourers. Should have done 1.19 Hull points. Another Tyrant does nothing should have done 0.59 Hull points. Expected: 1.78 Actual 3.
Turn 2, 2 Tyrants kill a serpent (in range of E.grubs). Should have done 2.26 Hull points. Also, the Tyrannocyte shot at dire avengers instead of a Serpent which was closer. Expected: 4.04 Actual 6.
Turn 3, 1 Tyrant kills a serpent (in range of E.grubs), Should have done 1.13 Hull points. Crone + Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) kill a Wave serpent, should have done 1.63 hull points. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9.
Turn 4, 1 Tyrant fails to hurt a serpent should have done 0.59. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9. Expected: 7.38 Actual 9.
Turn 5, 1 Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) does 2 hullpoints. Should have done 1.13. Expected: 8.52 Actual 11.
Basically the tyrants got pretty lucky, but only 23% above average. It just seemed flashy.
^ I love this. I'm so glad someone had the time both to watch and record his findings. I know personally I do not have his luck, but I'll go on breathing knowing his rolls weren't "that" lucky and was only 23% over the expected.
Example of MY luck: 5 Zoans deep strike from pod in front arc of Imperial Knight. Guess where his shield is going (I wanted his side arcs to be shieldless against my Flyrants' dakka).
All 5 hit! Five 3+ rolls on my BS!
4 pens and 1 glance! BOOYAH!
All five shots get deflected by his 4++ invuln.
Well played, Imperial Knight. Well played.
That's not bad luck at all, that's a misplayed rule. Imperial Knight change their shield during the Shooting phase, while Zoanthropes resolve their shooting attacks during the psychic phase, before the shooting phase. Therefore, Imperial Knights can't change the facing of their shield until after you've blown him up with Zoeys.
Basically, you got screwed there. :/
Wow, that's a good point. My opponent and I are in the same gaming group and both new to Knights. Was 100% not intentional, but does the shield from last turn still remain? Like Turn 1 shielding last until his Turn 2 shooting? If he doesn't declare any shields Turn1, my zoans will never be able to be shield from?
Thanks for pointing that out though! Much appreciated.
About: Termagants are the most basic troops available to Tyranids. They are Iconic, but not a top tier choice.
Advantages/Disadvantages: Instinctive Behavior(Lurk) - With leadership 6, if they get out of synapse normally they are running.
Cheap - Only 4 points per model
Mobility - They Move 6, and they don't have fleet without expensive upgrades.
Deployment Aid - Enough gants can bubble wrap you for drop pods. Gargoyes and hormagants are better at this.
Required Troop - Unfortunately the other options are better.
Dakka - The devourer version can put out quite a bit. Not recommended without upgrades.
Tervigon unlocker - Requires 30.
Outflankable - If a Hive Tyrant takes Hive commander you can outflank one troop.
Tervigon-a-phobic - If a nearby Tervigon dies, bad things happen.
Wargear: Fleshborers - The basic weapon.
Spinefists - A free upgrade. They are better against Toughness 3 and 6, and in overwatch. Worse against Toughness 5 and 7, and AV10.
Spike Rifle - A free upgrade. More range, but not as good as other options.
Devourers - Doubles the cost but tripples the firepower and increase the range. It makes them pricy, and so a mixed squad with ablative wounds is recommended.
Stranglewebs - With only strenght 2, this is generally not worth 5 points.
Biomorphs: Adrenal Glands - Give's you fleet and furious charge, but increases the cost by 1/3.
Toxin Sacs - Allows them to threaten MC's in assault, but termagants are not an assaulty unit.
Common Builds: Min Troop - 10 Termagants (Fleshborers or Spinefists) - Fills a basic troop requirement.
Dakka Gants - 20 Termagants (10 Spinefists, 10 Devourers) - A basic unit that can exert board control and threaten Infantry and even some MC's.
Backdoor Gants - 20 Termagants (10 Fleshborers, 10 Devourers) - A surprisingly good anti-vehicle choice. Either outflank them via hive commander or deep strike them via a Tyrannocyte (No blasts or you will take friendly fire)
Devil Gants - 20 Termagants (Devourers) - Produces many, many shots, but is expensive, and the firepower decreases quickly once they start taking fire.
Tyranid Blob - 30 Termagants (Spinefists) - A 30 wound OS unit that can tapit things.
Tervigon Key - 30 Termagants (Fleshborers). Tervigon
Flexible Backdoor Action - 30 Termagants (15 Fleshborers, 15 devouers), Tervigon (E.Grubs, Crushing Claws, possibly other upgrades) Tyrant (Hive Commander). You get to pick if you want to send the Tervigon or the Gants to the backfield.
Just speculating here, but what do you guys think the new Broodlord's abilities might be? I would love a broodlord HQ option - and if he has the warlord trait that grants preferred enemy, a large infiltrating blob of genestealers (that trail back to a malanthrope for shrouded) might just start making its way back into lists. I'm also intrigued to see what (if any) special rules are given to the other models in the upcoming box set.
Thanks, guys, for the unit reviews. I will update this thread a little later today. Right now, I've got a battle report to finish writing.
@tag8833
BTW, do you want to give a grade to your termagants? Don't necessarily have to grade everything, but possibly just the most common configurations (which will probably by vanilla and (mixed) devilgants)?
tetrisphreak wrote: Just speculating here, but what do you guys think the new Broodlord's abilities might be? I would love a broodlord HQ option - and if he has the warlord trait that grants preferred enemy, a large infiltrating blob of genestealers (that trail back to a malanthrope for shrouded) might just start making its way back into lists. I'm also intrigued to see what (if any) special rules are given to the other models in the upcoming box set.
BTW, Broodlord doesn't have to be HQ to be your Warlord currently.
BTW, do you want to give a grade to your termagants? Don't necessarily have to grade everything, but possibly just the most common configurations (which will probably by vanilla and (mixed) devilgants)?
Added some grades. Overall gants are probably a C or C+, there are just certain very effect builds.
tetrisphreak wrote: Just speculating here, but what do you guys think the new Broodlord's abilities might be? I would love a broodlord HQ option - and if he has the warlord trait that grants preferred enemy, a large infiltrating blob of genestealers (that trail back to a malanthrope for shrouded) might just start making its way back into lists. I'm also intrigued to see what (if any) special rules are given to the other models in the upcoming box set.
I'd expect him to operate in the army as a whole much like the FIreblade (If an IC, or changed at all). As you stated, just upgrading stealers themselves.
BTW, do you want to give a grade to your termagants? Don't necessarily have to grade everything, but possibly just the most common configurations (which will probably by vanilla and (mixed) devilgants)?
Added some grades. Overall gants are probably a C or C+, there are just certain very effect builds.
Personally, I think that the "Tervigon key" are better than you give credit for, and here is why. They are a threat to the more aggressive, elite units like wraithknights, dreadknights, imperial knights, daemon princes and other MC's. Why? Because your opponent doesn't want to get his uber-unit tarpitted by your much cheaper gants. Basically, they negate the board control aspects of these units and actually prevents them from taking the middle. And if the gants can assault one of those units near an objective, they can still take the objective while preventing the enemy unit from doing so (due to ObSec). Also, such a large unit is quite durable with malanthrope/venomthrope protection and if you really need to, Catalyst for FNP as well. This makes them quite good as a bullet-catcher unit if your opponent decides to shoot at it.
Oh, and here's another role where they are good at....bubble-wrapping (they are the cheapest Tyranid unit for this). Especially useful in protecting bastions from drop-podding meltas or whatever else you need protection from.
Anecdote: Once walked a blob of 30 gants up through a ruin...catalyst, venomthrope. for a 2+ / 5+ FnP directly into 5 Centurions. He basically had one turn to kill as many of them as possible before assault and unloaded all the Grav/Bolter Centurions into them...
BTW, do you want to give a grade to your termagants? Don't necessarily have to grade everything, but possibly just the most common configurations (which will probably by vanilla and (mixed) devilgants)?
Added some grades. Overall gants are probably a C or C+, there are just certain very effect builds.
Personally, I think that the "Tervigon key" are better than you give credit for, and here is why. They are a threat to the more aggressive, elite units like wraithknights, dreadknights, imperial knights, daemon princes and other MC's. Why? Because your opponent doesn't want to get his uber-unit tarpitted by your much cheaper gants. Basically, they negate the board control aspects of these units and actually prevents them from taking the middle. And if the gants can assault one of those units near an objective, they can still take the objective while preventing the enemy unit from doing so (due to ObSec). Also, such a large unit is quite durable with malanthrope/venomthrope protection and if you really need to, Catalyst for FNP as well. This makes them quite good as a bullet-catcher unit if your opponent decides to shoot at it.
Oh, and here's another role where they are good at....bubble-wrapping (they are the cheapest Tyranid unit for this). Especially useful in protecting bastions from drop-podding meltas or whatever else you need protection from.
The Tervigon Key would have been rated better if the Tervigon itself was worth it, and not a threat to the gants. Perhaps I could have done this:
Tyranid Blob - 30 Termagants (Spinefists) - A 30 wound OS unit that can tapit things.
Grade: C
Gargoyles and Hormagants are much better at tarpitting and objective stealing. They can get there, they don't get in the way of your MC's and they can reliably make a charge. I would challenge you to attempt tarpitting and objective stealing with Hormagants for a few games and see how you like it.
As far as deployment bubblewrap, I called that "Deployment Aid" it is certainly a benefit of Termagants. In most cases I would rather take 3 squads of 10 rather than 1 squad of 30 to accomplish the same thing. A squad of 30 Gants is quite a movement hinderance. It can only score one objective and can often be used as a wall by your opponent to bubblewrap their own units.
The way I would run it is you work out if your fists or borers are going to be more effective based on army in front of you and the less effective one becomes meat shield, the effective one becomes second screen, and the devils bring up the rear with their better range and firepower.
Well, I think I'd call'em C+, they are good, but can be replaced by others who are just as good. Devourers are twice as expensive, so still in that C to C+ range Spinefists? I like them, but they are not "better"...
In general, if I could Only take Termagants, or Hormagaunts I would take Hormies, and I consider them a strong C...
Here is my take on ratings/grades:
F, only a dang fool would use this!
D, this unit is poor, you should only use it if you have a Good reason.
C, this is a "good" unit.
B, you should use this unit every chance you get!
A, Only a fool does not use this unit!
So Fly'rants? A, not using them requires some justification....etc...
Zande4 wrote: These grades need to be worked on. You have some people grading Gants a C and others a Haruspex and Sky Slashers B-...
I think the problem is that the more "specialized" units (not stuff everyone uses like gants) are being written only by people who like them. This is the only conceivable way that I can think of that caused Pyrovores to be higher ranked than Venomthropes, despite the fact that for the same slot and same cost a Venomthrope is immeasurably better, and still falls short of truly great unit status like the Malanthrope.
While I like the idea of having individual reviewers, I think that perhaps a single person should grade the units as far as Letter Grades go. jy2 would be the most obvious choice if we decided to do this, but I think it is important that different people write the actual text, so that people who have actually used the units can comment on them.
(Seriously though, can we drop the Pyros grade a little bit...?)
I didn't give Slashers a B- because I like them though, I don't like them unless I just want to switch things up. It's because...when looking at the unit alone...it deserves it. It's great at what it does. But what it does isn't needed in general Tyranid tactics.
This model has more special rules than you can shake a stick at, but it essentially boils down to a giant close combat beatstick. He is the monster that the Swarmlord used to be, and then some. He is an amazing area denial unit. Most units in the game won't think about getting anywhere near him. With fleet and move through cover, he is looking at an average of a 15.5" threat range - meaning he will, on average, move and charge that far. I've found that most units have no desire to risk being within 18 at all, regardless of the odds. The sheer number of AP 2 attacks he has at a high weapon skill and initiative would scare most units, but adding instant death on a 4+, gaining d3 attacks when outnumbered, and an extra strength 10 ap 1 instant death autohit at I1 to give you FNP on a 4+ is just icing on the cake of death. His only issue is that he only moves 6". Big downer. Can't get to close combat until turn 3 at best realistically, unless you happen to also roll Master of Ambush.
Thankfully, this last issue has been solved with the advent of the Tyrannocyte, allowing the Dimachaeron to drop down and cause havoc after being exposed to only a single turn of fire. It costs more, but the Tyrannocyte itself has uses so it's not a bad deal at all. You plop down a unit that your opponent either has to deal with immediately, magically vacate his entire threat range, or sacrifice a unit a turn to. Unless your opponent is rocking storm shields/phase shifters, the Dimachaeron will not be tarpitted. And unless a close combat eternal warrior monster can whale on him for free (shield eternal chapter master in a squad, etc), he doesn't fear much of anything. Do the math - he is the only monster in our army who actually has to worry about killing too much and being shot up on your opponent's turn - if he doesn't get his I1 instant death hit, he can't gain FNP. That's a big deal, so try to finagle with smash if you need to in order to gain the correct exit turn/FNP/both. Most of the time, gaining the FNP is actually more important as you lack an invulnerable save, and a 3+ and 4+ FNP is nothing to sniff at.
He has some unique movement tricks with his leap ability, allowing him to leap over screening units (either in movement or, more likely, in the assault phase) and is one of the few models in our army that creates true target priority issues. Many armies will not have anything that can stand up to him in close combat. He has no guns, and in an age where getting into combat unscathed is increasingly difficult, this cannot be looked upon fondly. He is also not going to work in all armies. Dropping him in unsupported is a great way to lose a chunk of your army. But if you have multiple threats that penalize your opponent no matter what they focus on, he can certainly shine. It's also worth pointing out that he, like most of the rest of our army, has no access to grenades. So be careful when you move to avoid terrain if possible. Thankfully, he can jump in the assault phase, so if you would have clipped a piece of terrain on your way in, you can still swing at initiative. However, like jump infantry, if you start or end in terrain, then you still go at I1. So it's not super helpful, but it's something.
This model has more special rules than you can shake a stick at, but it essentially boils down to a giant close combat beatstick. He is the monster that the Swarmlord used to be, and then some. He is an amazing area denial unit. Most units in the game won't think about getting anywhere near him. With fleet and move through cover, he is looking at an average of a 15.5" threat range - meaning he will, on average, move and charge that far. I've found that most units have no desire to risk being within 18 at all, regardless of the odds. The sheer number of AP 2 attacks he has at a high weapon skill and initiative would scare most units, but adding instant death on a 4+, gaining d3 attacks when outnumbered, and an extra strength 10 ap 1 instant death autohit at I1 to give you FNP on a 4+ is just icing on the cake of death. His only issue is that he only moves 6". Big downer. Can't get to close combat until turn 3 at best realistically, unless you happen to also roll Master of Ambush.
Thankfully, this last issue has been solved with the advent of the Tyrannocyte, allowing the Dimachaeron to drop down and cause havoc after being exposed to only a single turn of fire. It costs more, but the Tyrannocyte itself has uses so it's not a bad deal at all. You plop down a unit that your opponent either has to deal with immediately, magically vacate his entire threat range, or sacrifice a unit a turn to. Unless your opponent is rocking storm shields/phase shifters, the Dimachaeron will not be tarpitted. And unless a close combat eternal warrior monster can whale on him for free (shield eternal chapter master in a squad, etc), he doesn't fear much of anything. Do the math - he is the only monster in our army who actually has to worry about killing too much and being shot up on your opponent's turn - if he doesn't get his I1 instant death hit, he can't gain FNP. That's a big deal, so try to finagle with smash if you need to in order to gain the correct exit turn/FNP/both. Most of the time, gaining the FNP is actually more important as you lack an invulnerable save, and a 3+ and 4+ FNP is nothing to sniff at.
He has some unique movement tricks with his leap ability, allowing him to leap over screening units (either in movement or, more likely, in the assault phase) and is one of the few models in our army that creates true target priority issues. Many armies will not have anything that can stand up to him in close combat. He has no guns, and in an age where getting into combat unscathed is increasingly difficult, this cannot be looked upon fondly. He is also not going to work in all armies. Dropping him in unsupported is a great way to lose a chunk of your army. But if you have multiple threats that penalize your opponent no matter what they focus on, he can certainly shine.
Zande4 wrote: These grades need to be worked on. You have some people grading Gants a C and others a Haruspex and Sky Slashers B-...
I Would have given the Haruspex a C- or D. I've never run Sky Slashers, and so I cannot comment on their viability. I also think that for a unit like termagants with so many options and ways to run them, that grading the unit as a whole is pretty pointless.
an extra strength 10 ap 1 instant death autohit at I1 to give you FNP on a 4+ is just icing on the cake of death.
It doesn't auto hit. Still have to roll like all other attacks.
luke1705 wrote: Do the math - he is the only monster in our army who actually has to worry about killing too much and being shot up on your opponent's turn
Also not true. Swarmlord has alot of problems with this. Walkrants, Raveners, Genestealers, Shrikes, Even sometimes gants.
Overall, I think your review is fine. I would have mentioned the Lack of Grenades.
Have you actually run games dropping a Dimacharon in a Tyrannocyte, or is the higher grade there due to Theory hammer? My Theory Hammer says that most of his weaknesses are still a problem if you drop pod him in.
ductvader wrote: I didn't give Slashers a B- because I like them though, I don't like them unless I just want to switch things up. It's because...when looking at the unit alone...it deserves it. It's great at what it does. But what it does isn't needed in general Tyranid tactics.
I feel that you do need to take into account what else occupies that slot, looking at things in a vacuum doesn't work.
I feel maybe 2-3 most experienced people should do the grades after the review is submitted. Eg. They come to a consensus together and grade it. If not then I don't really think the grades have a place as they're far too inconsistent.
@Tag for the record I agree with your grading of Gants, they're average and a C reflects that. A Haruspex is not average nor even just below it, he's terrible and should be a D at most.
You're right about the swarmlord. I think the Dimachaeron suffers from it more because he gets more attacks due to being outnumbered. However, the other units that you mentioned may suffer from it to varying degrees, but there's nothing you can do about it (except not charge at all, and you know how that works out)
As for the strength 10 attack, it does autohit if you score a 6 on your to-hit roll when you use the lower stength (instant death on 4+) weapons. The Dimachaerons in Tyrannocytes is currently Theoryhammer for me because I've only just finished assembling the two Tyrannocytes I need. I'll definitely let you guys know how it goes when they do hit the table, although it probably won't be until the week after thanksgiving due to the holiday. I have no problem adjusting the grade if I find him to underperform, but I've had good success with him outside of a pod, so I can't imagine it won't get better when he has more target selection.
You are right about the grenades - I'll add that in to the review. You just sort of forget about it after such a long time of never using them....because we almost exclusively have none... :(
I also agree that there needs to be more consistency with the grading....maybe we could set up a community poll for the grades. It wouldn't be hard to simply set up a grading poll, and then all of us could collectively grade each unit after the reviews are finished (and we've read them of course ) the results could then be averaged and put into the entry
Zande4 wrote: These grades need to be worked on. You have some people grading Gants a C and others a Haruspex and Sky Slashers B-...
I think the problem is that the more "specialized" units (not stuff everyone uses like gants) are being written only by people who like them. This is the only conceivable way that I can think of that caused Pyrovores to be higher ranked than Venomthropes, despite the fact that for the same slot and same cost a Venomthrope is immeasurably better, and still falls short of truly great unit status like the Malanthrope.
While I like the idea of having individual reviewers, I think that perhaps a single person should grade the units as far as Letter Grades go. jy2 would be the most obvious choice if we decided to do this, but I think it is important that different people write the actual text, so that people who have actually used the units can comment on them.
(Seriously though, can we drop the Pyros grade a little bit...?)
Obviously there is going to be a lot of subjectivity with regards to these grading, and I agree that some of them are somewhat off due to personal experiences, prejudices or whatever. However, as an editor, I try not to "touch" the individual author's reviews (other than for formatting purposes or proofreading/grammatical/spelling errors). Otherwise, it then isn't really that person's review anymore.
However, here is my proposal. If you don't agree with an author's grading, simply add your opinions in the proper format (see below) and I will then add it as an addendum to that person's review. I will call it Grading - An Alternate Perspective. Use the format below:
Pyrovore: (Please include the author you are referring to. In this case, it would be Unyielding Hunger)
Grading - An Alternate Perspective: B (Podvores), C+ (Promvores), D (Vanilla) (by jy2)
Reason(s): To me, an 'A' unit is a unit that can and will consistently contribute to the Tyranid cause. While pyrovores in pods (podvores) can be very good for its role of anti-infantry, oftentimes it just won't contribute much. Why?
1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).
2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.
3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.
4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out
Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have to drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they are just as likely to fall flat on the face.
------------------------------------------------
Let me know if you guys like this idea or if you would prefer to do it another ways.
@jy2
I'm a fan. I'm a big advocate for multiple people reviewing the same unit- I love having several perspectives to think over. Like the hormagaunts for example.
Here's 40k Brawls latest rep making use of the Tyrannocytes, leviathan detatchment and fighter ace upgrade vs serpant spam.
Please enjoy!
Spoiler:
Interesting. Tyrants demolished the serpents. It ran counter to my experience, so I tracked it a bit.
Shooting Devourers at a front or side of a serpent should do 1.78 hull points, but with holo fields they jink 2/3 of those away for a net of 0.59 Hull points.
If they do E.Grubs rather than 1 Devourer that goes up to 1.13 hull points.
Turn 1, 2 Tyrants, Kill a serpent with Devourers. Should have done 1.19 Hull points. Another Tyrant does nothing should have done 0.59 Hull points. Expected: 1.78 Actual 3.
Turn 2, 2 Tyrants kill a serpent (in range of E.grubs). Should have done 2.26 Hull points. Also, the Tyrannocyte shot at dire avengers instead of a Serpent which was closer. Expected: 4.04 Actual 6.
Turn 3, 1 Tyrant kills a serpent (in range of E.grubs), Should have done 1.13 Hull points. Crone + Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) kill a Wave serpent, should have done 1.63 hull points. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9.
Turn 4, 1 Tyrant fails to hurt a serpent should have done 0.59. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9. Expected: 7.38 Actual 9.
Turn 5, 1 Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) does 2 hullpoints. Should have done 1.13. Expected: 8.52 Actual 11.
Basically the tyrants got pretty lucky, but only 23% above average. It just seemed flashy.
^ I love this. I'm so glad someone had the time both to watch and record his findings. I know personally I do not have his luck, but I'll go on breathing knowing his rolls weren't "that" lucky and was only 23% over the expected.
Example of MY luck: 5 Zoans deep strike from pod in front arc of Imperial Knight. Guess where his shield is going (I wanted his side arcs to be shieldless against my Flyrants' dakka).
All 5 hit! Five 3+ rolls on my BS!
4 pens and 1 glance! BOOYAH!
All five shots get deflected by his 4++ invuln.
Well played, Imperial Knight. Well played.
Just wanted to point out that Zoanthropes do their thing in the psychic phase and the shields choose their facing directly after that, so you have the advantage of shooting with your strength 10 lance where he's open.
Tyrant Guard serve one single purpose; to protect the Hive Tyrant.
1. They are now 10 points cheaper.
2. More streamlined for defense.
The Tyrant Guard brood is a sturdy and good investment for any ground based Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord. With the changes to the Shieldwall rule, a guard is a 50 point pair of ablative wounds for it. One point to note is that once combined, the Hive Tyrant is unable to leave, which means that any pairing must have good synergy. This immediately cancels out buying Tyrant Guard for any flyrants in your army. So, to understand fully what this means, you can't fly, and drop pods are out of the question since it it would require 2 pods to carry the unit. It will be forced to cover any distance on foot. Now, to make a point of this, if you are not running a Swarmlord, adrenal glands are nearly mandatory for a close combat oriented tyrant guard brood in order to ensure that you waste as little time as possible in the open. This helps to add extra durability by keeping them sweeping from assault to assault with fleet, spending as little time as possible in the open to be shot by your opponents high strength high AP weaponry.
Now, when you get down to it, the Tyrant Guard serve only in 2 specific functions. You bring them along to ensure that your Hive Tyrant survives from point A to point B, or as a combat multiplier. A brood of 3 stock guard are a good insurance policy for a Swarmlord or tooled out Hive Tyrant with Reaper, etc. These are serious point investments and an extra 6 wounds will ensure that they absorb plenty of punishment. Another option is if you have a walkrant and you plan for it to go after vehicles. Armed with a venom cannon, it would not be out of the question to take a single or pair of guard with a single or even both with crushing claws to add extra damage for vehicles. The trick at this point is to try and conserve points between the two to ensure you don't wind up with a too expensive unit that may take longer than expected to make back its points. A tyrant going after characters or multi-wound MCs would never leave home without several guard armed with the LW/BS combo to give the unit multiple attacks coming in at I7 with a good chance to ID.
Now, one last thing to mention is that you can purposefully make a suicide tyrant unit. Just keep the tyrant stock and keep it to the front of a brood of LW/BS guards. Allow it to tank rounds and avoid using the auto-passing LOS rule until it gets to a single wound. At which point, by the time you enter melee, you will have a very vulnerable tyrant that might just die in overwatch. At which point, you have 3 very angry Tyrant Guard in assault. That will be 15 S6 attacks at I7 with Rending/ID on 6s. Not much will live since you can hit most units on 3s.
Grades: B- (CrushGuard), B- (LW/BS Guard), C (Vanilla)
Quoting this as I think it's been missed.
Mawloc done and dusted too.
Spoiler:
Mawloc Background The Mawloc first arrived on the scene in 5th edition, along with it's serpent brother, the Trygon. Mawlocs were initially overlooked in favour of the beast that the Trygon was, with many people wishing they had taken a Trygon over a Mawloc. Come 6th edition, that argument was flipped the other way around, with the Trygon being nerfed near to the point of unusable and the Mawloc now being taken as a single disruption unit or even in multiples, depending on the rest of the army. Come 7th edition, the Mawloc suffered a slight nerf in the form of Smash being nerfed, but otherwise remained the same, doing the same job that it did before.
Competitive use The Mawloc is a peculiar unit that Tyranids have available to them, it can do damage before even showing up on the board! Let's have a look at some of the benefits of including a Mawloc in a Tyranid army.
1. Terror from the Deep. This gives the Mawloc a S6 AP2 Large Blast with Ignores Cover when it arrives from Deep Strike. This makes the Mawloc a good answer to 2+ armour save units. Better yet, if it can't be placed, Terror from the Deep repeats the same thing again! If it still can't be placed, then there is a 50% chance it goes back into Ongoing reserves, allowing it to do the same thing next turn, without suffering any damage.
2. Deployment. The Mawloc directly influences your opponents deployment by forcing units out of position. No longer can they be bunched together in cover, since a Mawloc could claim them all. Instead, an opponent has to account for the Mawloc and deploy in a manner they might not normally want to.
3. Gunline nightmare. Due to the unlimited range of the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep, it, alongside the long range Biovores, are one of the best units to use against a gunline army. In addition, it is an immediate threat once it comes up as it can charge the next turn. This means the Mawloc can act as a huge bullet magnet and allow the rest of a Tyranid army to move up the field relatively unharmed.
4. Interceptor. As Terror from the Deep is resolved in the Movement Phase, this allows you to potentially remove units that could cause harm to your other units.
5. Invisibility. This is perhaps the Mawlocs greatest asset. Since the Mawloc does not fire it's Large Blast, it can target Invisible units. Provided it doesn't scatter, it can severely reduce the damage output of a Invisible Deathstar.
6. Hit and Run. This means the Mawloc can remove itself from combat if it finds him self there. With I4, it has a 2/3 of removing itself on the opponents turn and simply Burrow on the Tyranid turn, allowing it to use Terror from the Deep. Hit and Run also allows it to act as a tarpit and hold a unit in place and when the time is right, remove itself from combat to allow the rest of the army to shoot at that unit.
7. Cheap. The Mawloc, by comparison to other Monstrous Creatures in the Codex, is the cheapest model when talking about points per wound (140 points for 6 wounds or 23.3 per wound) while also sporting a 3+ armour save.
8. Instinctive Behaviour. The Mawloc operates without Synapse just as well as within Synapse, being naturally Fearless and only a single model, it suffers no consequences when testing for Instinctive Behaviour: Feed. The only time that Instinctive Behaviour may affect a Mawloc is when it gives it Rage. If, for some reason, it would be forced to charge a unit in the Assault phase, it can simply Burrow for that turn.
The Mawloc has a place in all Tyranid armies and is a solid option overall. The only downsides to taking a Mawloc is that it can scatter off it's intended target and does not fare that well in combat, which is where it is likely to be after it comes up.
Overall rating: B
Interesting idea jy2 - I'd be up for it. It would be useful for new players to get different opinions and experiences from the more veteran Nid players anyway.
ductvader wrote: I think that the grades simple need to devolve into letters...no more + or -
I think it's ok to include the +/- system. This helps to further separate the different units. For example, most people will probably agree that flyrants and carnifexes are excellent units. Both units are worthy of an 'A' rating. However, this grading can be misleading to newer players, who look at the grades between the 2 units and think that both are equal because both share the same grades. The +/- helps to differentiate these units even further. Ok, so it's better to take flyrants/carnifexes over the dimachaeron. However, should I take more tyrants or more fexes? The reader then sees that the tyrant is an 'A+' while the carnifex is an 'A'. This helps to provide more info to the reader that, while both units are very good, the flyrant is normally regarded more highly in a Tyranid army. Basically, in the case of units with the same grading level, the +/- gives the reader more info on which units is considered to be better.
I also agree that there needs to be more consistency with the grading....maybe we could set up a community poll for the grades. It wouldn't be hard to simply set up a grading poll, and then all of us could collectively grade each unit after the reviews are finished (and we've read them of course ) the results could then be averaged and put into the entry
While grading by polling is an excellent idea, realistically, it isn't very practical. There is just too many units and different configurations. You also need to give the viewers some time to vote (say, on average, 3-7 days for each unit).
Thus, there are 2 ways to do it. Put the poll here, leave it on for, say 3-5 days, and then put up the next poll. With this method, it may take up to a year just to collect all the samples!
The other way to do it is to open up multiple polls, all at once. This would require perhaps 100+ polling threads to be open. Problem is, besides the management of all of these polls, is this. The more popular units will get voted on. However, the less popular units will barely get any votes, if at all, and will fade away into oblivion in just a couple of days. Moreover, I don't know how significant the sample sizes for those less popular units will be.
For me, it's mainly the time to manage all these polls. Frankly, I just won't have the time to do so. Now if someone is ambitious enough to take on this project, then by all means, go for it. I'd be happy to use the results on the polls if the community here is fine with it.
1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).
Well, other than Marines, they will absolutely melt the contents of anything coming out of a popped transport all clumped together. Assuming you are podding them in you should have Dakkafex coming in with them imo I don't really think you should be running Pyrovores in anything except for aggressive drop pod list, so the survival of every single transport after 2 turns of shooting is pretty hard to imagine against an army with any mechanized infantry. On top of that, they still do infinitely more than Biovores in this match up, being able to put 3x S5 autohits into rear armour and ignoring jink isn't useless (compared to doing absolutely nothing).
jy2 wrote: 2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.
Assuming of course you go first, and the Pyrovores arrive turn two. Even then, I feel like if you have kept the Pathfinders off the board / out of threat range for two turns of shooting, and still unable to deploy straight into a forward ruin when they do arrive, then these guys have probably done their job.
jy2 wrote: 3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.
4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out
I'm gonna respond to these two points at once, by pointing out that in a TAC list you DO need either Biovores, Pyrovores, Crone, or TFex, or some manner of cover ignoring AP4. Sure, against some armies they aren't as effective. But as the saying goes, you'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! Wrecking armour save 4 or worse or anything with a cover save from the ruins or worse just covers so many critical threats that can be far less effecient to be shooting at with AP- TLDevs and most our other weaponry. Biovores have range durability a cost advantage and more damage output against this style of target than anything else making them the most versatile choice, but there is a lot of Nid builds where Pyrovores are a safer play that will consistently do better, and in any build its rare that they'll do worse.
About the spreading, well the same thing could be said for Biovores, Mawlocs, Exocrines blast, Pyrovores actually have some amount of control over it by being able to use their positioning to still line up multiple autohits with a smart template
jy2 wrote: Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have to drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they are just as likely to fall flat on the face.
Nah. I know you are theory crafting and all, but over 10 games in or so with the new Pyrovores and I can safely say this has never happened, and your logic to why it would is flawed. And even in the match ups where they performed middling-ly(?) I still didn't regret taking them over Biovores for my eggZilla build, and at least one of these kind of units is a must. Also I'd argue even Dima's don't fit this bill anymore now that they can take drop pods.
All this being said, those are your opinions and these are mine, so if this is going to be a community thing I think the only fair way to do it is take a vote out of 10 and take the average (mean) number. IMO !
Wilson wrote: RE: Dimachaeron If you roll a 6 to hit with the first batch of attacks, then the additional S10 attack hits automatically.
I stand corrected. Weird sentence structure in the rules threw me off. I've definitely been playing that wrong consistently.
ductvader wrote: I think that the grades simple need to devolve into letters...no more + or -
Why? I think + and - add quite a bit. Are you saying they are more subjective than the letters themselves?
I played some Necrons tonight. 4 Night Scythes vs my 2 Flyrants and Quad gun (Zoey was manning it). I was rolling cold to wound them, and they were rolling hot on their jinks, so between my 2 flyrants I was only landing 1 glance a turn, and between my quadgun and the 3 dakkafexes who were splitting their time with the cargo, I was getting another glance or so. On the plus side I was keeping all of them jinking every turn.
My question is, am I better off focusing down one Night Scythe at a time, or keeping them all jinking? I'll run the numbers later, but I'm curious what your experience tells you.
Reading the comments on the Pyrovore, I don't think that 3 in a SPOD is as terrible as I made it out to be in my thoughts. For 195 points, deepstriking 3 Heavy Flamers plus Pod weapons isn't honestly terrible, considering the Pyros are more resilient than an IG Vet squad. But, I think the problem is that Pyrovores don't fit any one role better than other units in our army. The fact is, to me, I would rather pay 40 less points for a Crone. I get less templates but better strength and Haywire missiles plus durability. Also, a Tyrannofex with EGrubs is 65 points more but is better in CC and infinitely tougher, plus inflicts more glances on any vehicle in the game, less reliant on scatter and inflicts very similar levels of damage. In a vacuum, Pyrovores aren't honestly even terrible. I just think that when compared to our other template options, they fall short as a complete package because of their lack of toughness. Yes, in a Threat Overload list you may be able to get away with this, but I'd personally rather always have a tougher MC in there.
Something interesting is that Pyrovores may be just as good as Biovores now... I honestly think that Biovores are no longer worth including outside of a LAN. With the rerolls I think they are still a good option and worth it, but I wouldn't be opposed to giving Pyrovores a B/B- (Far higher than I would have initially said), but the problem is that both TFex and Crones are B+ units to me. In a list where you are maxing Heavy Supports already (for say, Dakkafex and Exocrines) and have filled your Fast Attacks already, they aren't a bad choice. Slots allowing, there are just other units that do better at killing infantry.
Reading the comments on the Pyrovore, I don't think that 3 in a SPOD is as terrible as I made it out to be in my thoughts. For 195 points, deepstriking 3 Heavy Flamers plus Pod weapons isn't honestly terrible, considering the Pyros are more resilient than an IG Vet squad. But, I think the problem is that Pyrovores don't fit any one role better than other units in our army. The fact is, to me, I would rather pay 40 less points for a Crone. I get less templates but better strength and Haywire missiles plus durability. Also, a Tyrannofex with EGrubs is 65 points more but is better in CC and infinitely tougher, plus inflicts more glances on any vehicle in the game, less reliant on scatter and inflicts very similar levels of damage. In a vacuum, Pyrovores aren't honestly even terrible. I just think that when compared to our other template options, they fall short as a complete package because of their lack of toughness. Yes, in a Threat Overload list you may be able to get away with this, but I'd personally rather always have a tougher MC in there.
Something interesting is that Pyrovores may be just as good as Biovores now... I honestly think that Biovores are no longer worth including outside of a LAN. With the rerolls I think they are still a good option and worth it, but I wouldn't be opposed to giving Pyrovores a B/B- (Far higher than I would have initially said), but the problem is that both TFex and Crones are B+ units to me. In a list where you are maxing Heavy Supports already (for say, Dakkafex and Exocrines) and have filled your Fast Attacks already, they aren't a bad choice. Slots allowing, there are just other units that do better at killing infantry.
I guess that's a question of how you look at the Tyrannocyte. I view 75 points for 5x S5 AP5 hits a turn deepstriking anywhere, as worth it points and not an added cost to the Pyrovores, 10-20 at most if someone was to insist. It's the same amount of firepower as 90 points of Deathspitter Warriors. As for the Tyrannofex, thing is it might be a lot tougher, but Pyrovores hit for 150% the damage of a TFex, for 2/3's the price, so it's excellent in efficiency for knocking a unit clean out. I think while Tyranno's can glance vehicles, Pyrovores are really excellent in assault. I think the TFex is also very pricey, . I'm not saying it's a bad option however, just a different one. Also, Dakkafexes in pods are glass cannons and I don't like paying extra points for durability effeciecny right next to that, since the smart choice is often just to focus all fire on the Dakkafexes first anyway. To me the Pyrovore is not about threat overload, just that they work really well to compliment Dakkafex in Pods, because it hits in the same turn, Dakkafex lose effeciency when trying to hit units in cover or units with 4+ armour saves (half the wounds wasted), and they do a great job of destroying rear armour (half the reason you put em in pods). I think the Pyrovore really only needs that one turn to make its points back. Heavy Flamers might be decent for Marines, for us they are amazing, just based on what the rest of the units in each dex does well and does badly.
Crone in comparison hits about 1/3 as hard, cost 35 points more, and while it gives anti-air coverage and can take potshots at vehicles, it's a lot less focused of a model, which can hurt, and is effectively trading points out of the type of coverage that we are looking for in the choice of unit for points in AT/AA. Also, for the style of list where Pyrovores excel, I don't feel like a list with 60 Dakkashots a turn (24 of them Skyfire), and 3 Carnifexes DS'ing backfield, really drastically needs anything the Crone has to offer besides the Flamer. Still a viable choice, but you'd probably need 2, and I feel like it digs in a lot to a lot of points for a role that could be easily fulfilled by the Vores alone, but that's to taste I guess.
However, I agree that Pyrovores are just as good as Biovores, and Biovores are best off in LAN (which is still amazing!) and most other times Pyrovores will do their job just as well or better, even if they die in the process (which isn't always such a bad thing, especially if you are running it in conjunction with nothing but FMC's and MC's in drop pods!). They are undeniably a glass cannon, but as such they can make their points back in a single turn, and every further turn they survive their efficiency shoots through the roof, even if optimal targets start to drop off, especially since they can assault in subsequent turns. Also, it's more of a coverage aspect hence why only ever take 1 squad, if they have no optimal units left to shoot at, that's one less unit type that the Dakkafex trades less efficiently with on the board, meaning they will perform more efficiently themselves. That being said, there is a lot of things it can CONTINUE to put wounds on with S5 even if it becomes less efficient itself.
These are just my opinions and outlook on the unit, but I'm glad to hear jifel that you at least agree that it's not as terrible as people are making it out to be! I think you are the first person to say that. I feel it's a bit of the Tervigon mentality, where when the new dex first dropped everyone was still running 1 or 2, just because how they USED to perform, with the mindset that the changes didn't initally seem to be THAT big, right. Spore is unobtrusively and indirectly, a massive change for Pyrovore, and I feel like Jy's post is kind of just reaching a little, trying to find ways to prove the point that they are bad, even though he hasn't used them yet. Not having a go at that, because there is nothing wrong with theorycraft, but I think playing them just once or twice might change his opinion just a little.
Could I get some advice on what weapons to assemble my Tyranids with? I'm aiming for a swarm army with a bit of everything like the army pictures in the codex but I don't want to regret it later if I decide to be more competitive. I have one of the old battleforces and the swarm boxed set and I plan on getting the upcoming starter and the wrath boxed set at a later date.
I've planning on or have started doing them like this:
Hormagaunts = vanilla
Termagants = 1/3 with devourers, rest fleshborers
Genestealers = 2 pairs of rending claws.
Warriors = I've made 2 vanilla + 1 Barbed Strangler. I want to do a CC group next. Maybe one BS/LW and others with rending claws or make a Prime?
Carnifex = I'm magnetising them for head, arms and top carapace plate so weapons shouldn't be a problem. Not sure what to do about the tail though. I don't really want to magnetise it or use a tail biomorph but the plain tail looks bad and they are much cooler with a attachment.
durecellrabbit wrote: Could I get some advice on what weapons to assemble my Tyranids with? I'm aiming for a swarm army with a bit of everything like the army pictures in the codex but I don't want to regret it later if I decide to be more competitive. I have one of the old battleforces and the swarm boxed set and I plan on getting the upcoming starter and the wrath boxed set at a later date.
Warriors = I've made 2 vanilla + 1 Barbed Strangler. I want to do a CC group next. Maybe one BS/LW and others with rending claws or make a Prime?
Carnifex = I'm magnetising them for head, arms and top carapace plate so weapons shouldn't be a problem. Not sure what to do about the tail though. I don't really want to magnetise it or use a tail biomorph but the plain tail looks bad and they are much cooler with a attachment.
I magnetized all of my warriors.
For a Carnifex. I've never had anyone argue that the head, tail, or carapace plate are not WYSIWYG. I think these days most people have accepted that as an aesthetic choice rather than a wargear one.
The majority of my opponents can't tell one carapace aprt from the next as well, and I don't know if I've ever seen anyone assemble 30 hormagaunts with toxin sacs and 30 without.
When modelling tyranids and biomorphs...just stick to the rule of cool.
A bit off topic, but what size magnets (from K&J Magnetics) should I order for magnetizing Tyrannocyte guns? 90% sure I'll use VC's but just for the offchance I want to change...
Also, what would be best to use for getting the right size holes for the magnets made?
Thanks! I used my unfinished pod with a dakkafex in my last game and it worked great, popped a Razorback right away!
Tyrant Guard serve one single purpose; to protect the Hive Tyrant.
Grades: B- (CrushGuard), B- (LW/BS Guard), C (Vanilla)
I've run Tyrant Guard quite alot, and feel like this writup misses or diminishes a few of the things they do.
1) They make a Walkrant or a Swarmlord really, really survivable. To that end, you can make do with 1 less synapse creature in your army. 2) The allow you to multi-assault with an MC. Since close combat is the safest place for a TMC to be, this is huge. 3) Its the only way to get crushing claws into a Tyrant's unit. I always include one Tyrant guard with Crushing claws in a bodyguard contingent unless I'm running a backfield blast tyrant (and why would I?). 7th is the age of vehicles, and having one model that can get you out of combat with a walker is critical. I take my tyrant / Swarmlord all the way down to 1 wound before killing this guard if there are walkers/vehicles on the table. 4) I'm not sure where you are coming from with BS + LW. Every character you might join to them can take that, and do so on a more durable platform that can challenge people out. 5) You can do Wound allocation shenanigan with the auto-LOS. Often my Tyrant, and all 3 Tyrant Guard go down to 1 wound before the first model is removed.
Common Builds: Swarmlord Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws) + Swarmlord - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B. In Maelstrom (A-) Tyrant Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyrant (BS + LW, RC, TS, AG) - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B In Maelstrom (A-) Tyranid Prime Deathstar - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Maw Claws, TS, AG, FH) - Fit in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C+ Land Raider Hunters - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) possibly in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C.
Noctem wrote: A bit off topic, but what size magnets (from K&J Magnetics) should I order for magnetizing Tyrannocyte guns? 90% sure I'll use VC's but just for the offchance I want to change...
Also, what would be best to use for getting the right size holes for the magnets made?
Thanks! I used my unfinished pod with a dakkafex in my last game and it worked great, popped a Razorback right away!
Ah man, so true. Dakkafexes in pods are rad, I'd take two if I had the room to fit another fex and pod into my 1850 list!
Noctem wrote: A bit off topic, but what size magnets (from K&J Magnetics) should I order for magnetizing Tyrannocyte guns? 90% sure I'll use VC's but just for the offchance I want to change...
Also, what would be best to use for getting the right size holes for the magnets made?
Thanks! I used my unfinished pod with a dakkafex in my last game and it worked great, popped a Razorback right away!
4x1mm should do the trick. A 3/16" drill bit plus a little extra shaving with a hobby knife will make the holes for the magnets to sink into. Actually, 3x1mm will fit perfectly into a 3/16" hole and they should also be string enough to hold those little plastic guns.
Noctem wrote: A bit off topic, but what size magnets (from K&J Magnetics) should I order for magnetizing Tyrannocyte guns? 90% sure I'll use VC's but just for the offchance I want to change...
Also, what would be best to use for getting the right size holes for the magnets made?
Thanks! I used my unfinished pod with a dakkafex in my last game and it worked great, popped a Razorback right away!
4x1mm should do the trick. A 3/16" drill bit plus a little extra shaving with a hobby knife will make the holes for the magnets to sink into. Actually, 3x1mm will fit perfectly into a 3/16" hole and they should also be string enough to hold those little plastic guns.
Personally, I go with 3x2mm for things that stick out very far.
1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).
Well, other than Marines, they will absolutely melt the contents of anything coming out of a popped transport all clumped together. Assuming you are podding them in you should have Dakkafex coming in with them imo I don't really think you should be running Pyrovores in anything except for aggressive drop pod list, so the survival of every single transport after 2 turns of shooting is pretty hard to imagine against an army with any mechanized infantry. On top of that, they still do infinitely more than Biovores in this match up, being able to put 3x S5 autohits into rear armour and ignoring jink isn't useless (compared to doing absolutely nothing).
Ok, let's say you pop a transport with previous shooting. Now you can potentially:
1. Kill a 65-pt unit of dire avengers.
2. 54-pts of fire warriors.
3. 60-pts of orks.
4. 60-pts of guardsmen.
5. 45-pts of kabalite warriors.
5. Against a 5-man marine unit - assuming you get 15-hits (not very likely, average will probably more like 8-12 depending on whether your opponent spreads out) - that's 10 wounds, 3 dead marines. You've just killed 42-pts of marines.
Sure, you've melted a unit. You've also traded your 120-pt for a 50-70-pt unit. But your point of a "drop pod" Tyranid list is fair. Drop other more dangerous threats and they will ignore your pyrovores.
jy2 wrote: 2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.
Assuming of course you go first, and the Pyrovores arrive turn two. Even then, I feel like if you have kept the Pathfinders off the board / out of threat range for two turns of shooting, and still unable to deploy straight into a forward ruin when they do arrive, then these guys have probably done their job.
Yes, I come in first, you have targets. You come in first, you don't have good targets. It's almost a coin flip. 50% you will do something. 50% you won't. That's not what I would define as a "consistent" contributor. A 50/50 unit is not what I would rate as an 'A' unit. And then what if my "squishy" units come in on a transport (i.e. night scythes, rhinos, devilfish)?
BTW, pathfinders will not be in reserves. They will stay on the table. When your pyrovores come in and shoot at them, it won't matter because 1) they've already helped the Tau army take out a crucial enemy unit with their markerlights and 2) the enemy probably shot at them already on Turn 1 and killed enough to make the unit inconsequential by the time the pyrovores come in.
jy2 wrote: 3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.
4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out
I'm gonna respond to these two points at once, by pointing out that in a TAC list you DO need either Biovores, Pyrovores, Crone, or TFex, or some manner of cover ignoring AP4. Sure, against some armies they aren't as effective. But as the saying guys, you'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it! Wrecking armour save 4 or worse or anything with a cover save from the ruins or worse just covers so many critical threats that can be far less effecient to be shooting at with AP- TLDevs and most our other weaponry. Biovores have range durability a cost advantage and more damage output against this style of target than anything else making them the most versatile choice, but there is a lot of Nid builds where Pyrovores are a safer play that will consistently do better, and in any build its rare that they'll do worse.
About the spreading, well the same thing could be said for Biovores, Mawlocs, Exocrines blast, Pyrovores actually have some amount of control over it by being able to use their positioning to still line up multiple autohits with a smart template
It also makes them somewhat hit-or-miss against certain armies. Here's the difference.
Exocrine - shoots, misses (or doesn't have a good target), tries again next turn.
Biovores - shoots, misses (or doesn't have a good target), tries again next turn.
Mawloc - comes up, scatters, re-burrows or assault, then get out of combat and re-burrow.
Pyrovores - comes in, doesn't have a good target, next turn is most likely dead.
The other units can keep on trying because they have the range to stay away and shoot (or in the case of the mawloc, assault or re-burrow again). The pyrovore is almost a one-and-done unit. You better make the most out of him on the turn he comes in. Otherwise, with his really short range and slow mobility, he is most likely going to be out of it - either killed because he is not as tough as the mawloc or out-of-position without the mobility to really get back into the position to be useful. That, to me, is an indication that he is more of a suicidal unit than a consistent team player. In other words, not an 'A' player.
jy2 wrote: Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have to drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they are just as likely to fall flat on the face.
Nah. I know you are theory crafting and all, but over 10 games in or so with the new Pyrovores and I can safely say this has never happened, and your logic to why it would is flawed. And even in the match ups where they performed middling-ly(?) I still didn't regret taking them over Biovores for my eggZilla build, and at least one of these kind of units is a must. Also I'd argue even Dima's don't fit this bill anymore now that they can take drop pods.
That's fine. You can have good performances with them. They are pretty good for what they were meant to do. I am not disputing that. What I am disputing is whether they are good enough/survivable enough to be consistent contributors to the Tyranid army. And yes, a lot of my reasoning is theory-crafting. However, when evaluating a unit, I run them through the gauntlet against my competitive armies. Against my:
Daemons - I would spread out my pink horrors. FMC's will be in the air. My deathstar would be Invisible and not targetable.
Necrons - absolutely no viable targets. There's only AV11 rear armor of my vehicles.
Tyranids - either MC's or rippers far off somewhere. Come in before the rippers, no good targets. Come in after the rippers, you will probably kill them but then now you will be out of position (either that or shot down by flyrants).
Space Marines - everyone is meched up. Have fun shooting at 2+ guys (dreadknights, GK terminators) or my deathstar, which will most likely be Invisible.
Chaos Space Marines - you will kill lots of zombies, but guess what....I really don't care. Lol. They are only 4-pts each and I've got 100+ in my army (and with FNP on them!).
I don't know what type of armies that you play against, but I really can't see pyrovores contributing consistently against the types of armies that I run. They will either not do much or they will die after doing something.
In any case, these are just my opinions. I tend to look at units from a more competitive standpoint, and when measuring their efficiency, I always gauge them relative to how I think (yes, it is theorycrafting, but is that so wrong?) they will perform against my competitive armies.
SHUPPET wrote: These are just my opinions and outlook on the unit, but I'm glad to hear jifel that you at least agree that it's not as terrible as people are making it out to be! I think you are the first person to say that. I feel it's a bit of the Tervigon mentality, where when the new dex first dropped everyone was still running 1 or 2, just because how they USED to perform, with the mindset that the changes didn't initally seem to be THAT big, right. Spore is unobtrusively and indirectly, a massive change for Pyrovore, and I feel like Jy's post is kind of just reaching a little, trying to find ways to prove the point that they are bad, even though he hasn't used them yet. Not having a go at that, because there is nothing wrong with theorycraft, but I think playing them just once or twice might change his opinion just a little.
I have no idea why you think that I think that they are bad ("ways to prove the point that they are bad"). My stance is that they are a good unit. Not excellent (which is what an 'A' unit would be to me), but good enough to recommend to a player if he wants an anti-infantry unit in his army. A 'B' rating, which is what I gave it, is still a good unit. It has a role in the army and it can perform that role very well actually. However, what keep it from being an 'A' unit, or an excellent unit, is because it is more of a suicidal unit and it doesn't perform as consistently as some of the other units in the book. It is a unit that is more potentially hit-or-miss than many of the units in the Tyranid codex, like the dimachaeron. Now you are perfectly fine to disagree with my analysis, but no amount of your playtesting or counter-arguments are going to change my mind on this.
Tyrant Guard serve one single purpose; to protect the Hive Tyrant.
Grades: B- (CrushGuard), B- (LW/BS Guard), C (Vanilla)
I've run Tyrant Guard quite alot, and feel like this writup misses or diminishes a few of the things they do.
1) They make a Walkrant or a Swarmlord really, really survivable. To that end, you can make do with 1 less synapse creature in your army.
2) The allow you to multi-assault with an MC. Since close combat is the safest place for a TMC to be, this is huge.
3) Its the only way to get crushing claws into a Tyrant's unit. I always include one Tyrant guard with Crushing claws in a bodyguard contingent unless I'm running a backfield blast tyrant (and why would I?). 7th is the age of vehicles, and having one model that can get you out of combat with a walker is critical. I take my tyrant / Swarmlord all the way down to 1 wound before killing this guard if there are walkers/vehicles on the table.
4) I'm not sure where you are coming from with BS + LW. Every character you might join to them can take that, and do so on a more durable platform that can challenge people out.
5) You can do Wound allocation shenanigan with the auto-LOS. Often my Tyrant, and all 3 Tyrant Guard go down to 1 wound before the first model is removed.
Common Builds:
Swarmlord Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws) + Swarmlord - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B. In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyrant Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyrant (BS + LW, RC, TS, AG) - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyranid Prime Deathstar - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Maw Claws, TS, AG, FH) - Fit in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C+
Land Raider Hunters - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) possibly in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C.
Let me "re-format" this for you and add it as an addendum to the Tyrant Guard.
Tyrant Guard: (by Unyielding Hunger)
Grading - An Alternate Perspective: (by tag8833)
Reason(s): I've run Tyrant Guard quite alot, and feel like this writup misses or diminishes a few of the things they do.
1) They make a Walkrant or a Swarmlord really, really survivable. To that end, you can make do with 1 less synapse creature in your army.
2) The allow you to multi-assault with an MC. Since close combat is the safest place for a TMC to be, this is huge.
3) Its the only way to get crushing claws into a Tyrant's unit. I always include one Tyrant guard with Crushing claws in a bodyguard contingent unless I'm running a backfield blast tyrant (and why would I?). 7th is the age of vehicles, and having one model that can get you out of combat with a walker is critical. I take my tyrant / Swarmlord all the way down to 1 wound before killing this guard if there are walkers/vehicles on the table.
4) I'm not sure where you are coming from with BS + LW. Every character you might join to them can take that, and do so on a more durable platform that can challenge people out.
5) You can do Wound allocation shenanigan with the auto-LOS. Often my Tyrant, and all 3 Tyrant Guard go down to 1 wound before the first model is removed.
Common Builds:
Swarmlord Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws) + Swarmlord - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B. In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyrant Deathstar - 3 Tyrant Guard ( 1 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyrant (BS + LW, RC, TS, AG) - Drop it to 2 in 1500 or smaller games. Grade B In Maelstrom (A-)
Tyranid Prime Deathstar - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) + Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Maw Claws, TS, AG, FH) - Fit in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C+
Land Raider Hunters - 3 Tyrang Guard ( 2 w/ Crushing Claws, all have AG) possibly in a Tyrannocyte. Grade C
durecellrabbit wrote: Could I get some advice on what weapons to assemble my Tyranids with? I'm aiming for a swarm army with a bit of everything like the army pictures in the codex but I don't want to regret it later if I decide to be more competitive. I have one of the old battleforces and the swarm boxed set and I plan on getting the upcoming starter and the wrath boxed set at a later date.
I've planning on or have started doing them like this:
Hormagaunts = vanilla
Termagants = 1/3 with devourers, rest fleshborers
Genestealers = 2 pairs of rending claws.
Warriors = I've made 2 vanilla + 1 Barbed Strangler. I want to do a CC group next. Maybe one BS/LW and others with rending claws or make a Prime?
Carnifex = I'm magnetising them for head, arms and top carapace plate so weapons shouldn't be a problem. Not sure what to do about the tail though. I don't really want to magnetise it or use a tail biomorph but the plain tail looks bad and they are much cooler with a attachment.
Those look like good choices> For CC Warriors one Bone Sword is a decent choice, and if you want to Flesh Hooks are a major upgrade for only a few points. I've always had good luck with Rending Claws, and they are another low cost upgrade. Heck I think I would be happy with Rending, Flesh Hook, Scything, possably Adrenal...that's...40 to 45 per??? Personaly I like a Strangle Cannon in every Warrior Brood, but that is a "style" thing. Warriors are pretty quick, so Twin Swords might be just as good, and save a few points...
The Haruspex is pretty decent at popping LRs and killing Riptides/NDKs. With Adrenal Glands, it'll be Str 8 on the charge, which will be instagibbing Paladins. In a pod it could be a nice DISTRACTION CARNIFEX replacement.
Unfortunately it lacks the initiative and WS required to be a truly good CQC monster, and it doesn't have enough wounds to get to CQC in the Age of Shooting. Finally, it's too slow, but a pod/Adr glands would mitigate this. I would rate it at a C- stock, and C with Adr Glands, definately not the F or D you guys are giving it. Thoughts? I will trust a more experienced Haruspex user to write up a true review.
Can you please explain why you rate it so poorly?
I think the problem with rating CQC tyranids is the dimachaeron. Because that model does that particular task so impressively well, none of the other melee tyranids from the codex really stand out in comparison.
Verviedi wrote: The Haruspex is pretty decent at popping LRs and killing Riptides/NDKs. With Adrenal Glands, it'll be Str 8 on the charge, which will be instagibbing Paladins. In a pod it could be a nice DISTRACTION CARNIFEX replacement.
Unfortunately it lacks the initiative and WS required to be a truly good CQC monster, and it doesn't have enough wounds to get to CQC in the Age of Shooting. Finally, it's too slow, but a pod/Adr glands would mitigate this. I would rate it at a C- stock, and C with Adr Glands, definately not the F or D you guys are giving it. Thoughts? I will trust a more experienced Haruspex user to write up a true review.
Can you please explain why you rate it so poorly?
I've run the Haruspex 40 or so times. The Haruspex and Hive Guard are my goto models if I want to intentionally lose a game.
A Haruspex isn't really capable of killing a riptide without help, at least not unless the riptide fails a leadership and gets overrun. If the riptide nova charges its invul, but doesn't have FNP, it will only be taking 0.44 wounds a turn (.88 on the charge assuming A.G.). Compare that to the Hauspex who is taking .75 wounds a turn (1.0 if the riptide charges). A riptide is actually better in assault than a Haruspex. On top of that, a riptide can Kill a Haruspex in shooting without too much trouble.
A Nemesis Dreadknight is even worse. It strikes at a higher initiative, and comes with a psychic power to improve its invul by one, plus for 5 points it can get force which ends the Haruspex before it even gets a chance to swing. But lets assume that the Dreadknight owner was too cheap to give it force. Now, the Haruspex is doing 1.00 wounds, but the 4++ is saving 1/2 so only 0.50 go through, or 1.00 assuming A.G. on the charge. The NDK is doing 2.22 unsaved wounds back or 2.78 on the charge.
So no, the Haruspex is certainly not good at killing Riptides or Nemesis Dreadknights. It can instagib Paladins, but Paladins swing 1st, and have force weapons, so it would require poor play by the opponent for it to pull that trick off. Land Raiders don't fight back so it is capable there. Generally going to take 2 turns to kill one, but at least it isn't suicidal.
As far as using it as a Distraction carnifex. If you feel like Carnifexes are just too cheap, and would really like to throw away some points, then the Haruspex is the model for you.
Oh ok I think I've misunderstood your grading. So A grade units are specifically the ones that are pretty much auto take and only left out on very rare occasions? So practically Flyrants and Mope/Zope are really the only A grade units? Because that makes sense I guess and I would agree that Pyrovores are not in this category.
I do think your argument is a little over exaggerated however, I mean by your logic, Biovores are pretty trash right? I mean with the explanation you gave right there for why they are so bad against each of those competitive lists, Biovores do absolutely everything just as badly or worse, except for the Nid match up where they could kill Rippers in subsequent turns. I'm just wondering how you feel about them, at least compared to Biovores.
But keep in mind these are specifically YOUR competitive lists, and against something that isn't 4x Flyrants for example, the Pyrovores completely nuke a Malanthrope and anything walking next to it for cover, or deny the cover save entirely.
I do see your underlying point that Pyrovores only get one shot at it, and yeah some games it might derp completely. I think the best point you made was that it might just completely blast a squad of Dire Avengers and then die. You are right against MSU it's worse than Biovores, who can nuke a squad a turn if they aren't inside a vehicle. I think against the bulk of armies you will get more out of a Pyrovore, but there is as you said a trade off for consistency, some armies they will be worse. Against say Tau, it's quite possible Pyrovores are the best unit in the dex. And I think it's a coverage unit that you take when you feel like you are good vs certain builds. I don't think it's ever as risky as you say, I think the flamers unit is an important one, Against wave serpent spam I don't feel like any choice of Biovore, Crone, TFex, or Pyrovore is doing a whole lot, Biovore is probably the best bet since it will clear squads cheaply to stop them being annoying, but really the rest all have their disadvantages here. In some match ups the role is less necessary, part of building TAC. Some games a 4+ cover save will ruin you. Some games are vs Tau where I think Pyrovores and pods is one of the best investments you can make I think we might be on the same page a little with this actuallyp, I see you saying it's not bad just that it's niche which I can agree with. Definitely think it's on par with or above the other options in its role, especially in the right list.
The problem is that all the ratings are entirely subjective of the person who wrote the list. Biovores in my experience have typically been near the top of the MVP choices each battle. They offer so much to the Nid army. Until recently Lictors would have been thrown into that trash department until someone took the time to actually use them and won with them. Whether that is a function of the Lictor, that Player, or that Players meta is unknown. But now everyone is jumping on the Lictor bandwagon.
And really, a handful of posters in a thread doesnt make it a must have unit. I'm glad he won with them but thats as far as I'm willing to go down the Lictor trail. (and I like Lictors)
Fragile wrote: The problem is that all the ratings are entirely subjective of the person who wrote the list. Biovores in my experience have typically been near the top of the MVP choices each battle. They offer so much to the Nid army. Until recently Lictors would have been thrown into that trash department until someone took the time to actually use them and won with them. Whether that is a function of the Lictor, that Player, or that Players meta is unknown. But now everyone is jumping on the Lictor bandwagon.
Lictors on their own are turd. they only work with Mawlocs and in Maelstrom missions. Deathleapers Character and Lictors in general are one of the many factors that got me playing Nids though.
Such an awesome design. I wish they where better!
SHUPPET wrote: Oh ok I think I've misunderstood your grading. So A grade units are specifically the ones that are pretty much auto take and only left out on very rare occasions? So practically Flyrants and Mope/Zope are really the only A grade units? Because that makes sense I guess and I would agree that Pyrovores are not in this category.
I do think your argument is a little over exaggerated however, I mean by your logic, Biovores are pretty trash right? I mean with the explanation you gave right there for why they are so bad against each of those competitive lists, Biovores do absolutely everything just as badly or worse, except for the Nid match up where they could kill Rippers in subsequent turns. I'm just wondering how you feel about them, at least compared to Biovores.
But keep in mind these are specifically YOUR competitive lists, and against something that isn't 4x Flyrants for example, the Pyrovores completely nuke a Malanthrope and anything walking next to it for cover, or deny the cover save entirely.
I do see your underlying point that Pyrovores only get one shot at it, and yeah some games it might derp completely. I think the best point you made was that it might just completely blast a squad of Dire Avengers and then die. You are right against MSU it's worse than Biovores, who can nuke a squad a turn if they aren't inside a vehicle. I think against the bulk of armies you will get more out of a Pyrovore, but there is as you said a trade off for consistency, some armies they will be worse. Against say Tau, it's quite possible Pyrovores are the best unit in the dex. And I think it's a coverage unit that you take when you feel like you are good vs certain builds. I don't think it's ever as risky as you say, I think the flamers unit is an important one, Against wave serpent spam I don't feel like any choice of Biovore, Crone, TFex, or Pyrovore is doing a whole lot, Biovore is probably the best bet since it will clear squads cheaply to stop them being annoying, but really the rest all have their disadvantages here. In some match ups the role is less necessary, part of building TAC. Some games a 4+ cover save will ruin you. Some games are vs Tau where I think Pyrovores and pods is one of the best investments you can make I think we might be on the same page a little with this actuallyp, I see you saying it's not bad just that it's niche which I can agree with. Definitely think it's on par with or above the other options in its role, especially in the right list.
The difference between biovores and pyrovores is this. The pyrovore (in a pod) comes in, does its damage if there are any viable targets (and it does it well, even better than the biovore) but then that's about it. Rarely will he have a second chance to flame another unit. He is good for 1 potential strong alpha-strike (if there are targets) and then his efficacy goes down dramatically.
The biovore has better long-term sustainability offense-wise. He has the same problem as the pyrovore with regards to the initial targets (i.e. initially, there may not be good targets for him just as there may not be good targets for the pyrovores). However, as the game goes on, he has better and better targets as well as the opportunities to fire at these targets. As enemy reserves come in and transports get de-meched by Tyranid AT, the biovore, being out of reach of most opponent's offense (potentially hiding) as well as being a much lower threat priority (compared to flyrants, mawlocs, dakkafexes, etc.), will have turn after turn of shooting at what is becoming a more and more target-rich environment for him. He won't hit as hard as the pyrovores, but it is his long-term sustainability which will net him more kills in the long run. It is also this long-term sustainability that makes him a more consistent contributor to the Tyranid offense. That is why IMO he deserves to be rated more highly than the pyrovore. Over time (and biovores will last longer than pyrovores in most cases), he will perform better and more consistently.
Here's another advantage of biovores over the pyrovore. Pyrovore comes in, does its thing and then your opponent moves his squishy units away from it and they are ok. With regards to the biovores, there is no safe haven for his squishy units. They move out in the open and they are in danger each and every turn. Thus, they are forced to hug terrain, which in effect, limits their movement. Just the threat of biovores around will mess with the opponent's Movement phase. That is something specifically that biovores can do that no other unit in the Tyranid codex can really do (just make sure you put objectives out in the open).
The Haruspex and Hive Guard are my goto models if I want to intentionally lose a game.
HA! I like the Haruspex one, but I feel that's a little harsh on Hive Guard. They're not terrible, just worse at Hull point removal than Flyrants. Which is pretty much every unit in the game besides DakkaFex and Flyrants...
Verviedi wrote: The Haruspex is pretty decent at popping LRs and killing Riptides/NDKs. With Adrenal Glands, it'll be Str 8 on the charge, which will be instagibbing Paladins. In a pod it could be a nice DISTRACTION CARNIFEX replacement.
Unfortunately it lacks the initiative and WS required to be a truly good CQC monster, and it doesn't have enough wounds to get to CQC in the Age of Shooting. Finally, it's too slow, but a pod/Adr glands would mitigate this. I would rate it at a C- stock, and C with Adr Glands, definately not the F or D you guys are giving it. Thoughts? I will trust a more experienced Haruspex user to write up a true review.
Can you please explain why you rate it so poorly?
I've run the Haruspex 40 or so times. The Haruspex and Hive Guard are my goto models if I want to intentionally lose a game.
A Haruspex isn't really capable of killing a riptide without help, at least not unless the riptide fails a leadership and gets overrun. If the riptide nova charges its invul, but doesn't have FNP, it will only be taking 0.44 wounds a turn (.88 on the charge assuming A.G.). Compare that to the Hauspex who is taking .75 wounds a turn (1.0 if the riptide charges). A riptide is actually better in assault than a Haruspex. On top of that, a riptide can Kill a Haruspex in shooting without too much trouble.
A Nemesis Dreadknight is even worse. It strikes at a higher initiative, and comes with a psychic power to improve its invul by one, plus for 5 points it can get force which ends the Haruspex before it even gets a chance to swing. But lets assume that the Dreadknight owner was too cheap to give it force. Now, the Haruspex is doing 1.00 wounds, but the 4++ is saving 1/2 so only 0.50 go through, or 1.00 assuming A.G. on the charge. The NDK is doing 2.22 unsaved wounds back or 2.78 on the charge.
So no, the Haruspex is certainly not good at killing Riptides or Nemesis Dreadknights. It can instagib Paladins, but Paladins swing 1st, and have force weapons, so it would require poor play by the opponent for it to pull that trick off. Land Raiders don't fight back so it is capable there. Generally going to take 2 turns to kill one, but at least it isn't suicidal.
As far as using it as a Distraction carnifex. If you feel like Carnifexes are just too cheap, and would really like to throw away some points, then the Haruspex is the model for you.
Great review of the Haru. I have run him a few times as well, and he hasn't got it done for me yet. I ripped of his head, magnetized it, and made him into an Exocrine. I may still throw it in a pod sometime just to see what happens, but, yeah... he really needs more attacks. Like, double the number of attacks. Then maybe we could talk.
jifel wrote: HA! I like the Haruspex one, but I feel that's a little harsh on Hive Guard. They're not terrible, just worse at Hull point removal than Flyrants. Which is pretty much every unit in the game besides DakkaFex and Flyrants...
Also worse against infantry of any sort than a myriad of Tyranid units.
But I would say that Hive Guard are a solid C, compared to a Haruspex's D. I use Hive Guard to tank because they are a big points investment that yields a very, very low firepower, and usually what opponent's can't deal with coming off of tyranids is shrouding and Dakka, so 2 groups of 3 Hive Guard and a Haruspex have filled my elite slots, and left me with very little to show for it. Sometimes I throw in some Dimacharons, because they are a similar unit that provides no dakka, and players that need me to tank a game most tend to be retro gunline players that back up in a corner and have no problem killing a Dimachaeron.
Verviedi wrote: The Haruspex is pretty decent at popping LRs and killing Riptides/NDKs. With Adrenal Glands, it'll be Str 8 on the charge, which will be instagibbing Paladins. In a pod it could be a nice DISTRACTION CARNIFEX replacement.
Unfortunately it lacks the initiative and WS required to be a truly good CQC monster, and it doesn't have enough wounds to get to CQC in the Age of Shooting. Finally, it's too slow, but a pod/Adr glands would mitigate this. I would rate it at a C- stock, and C with Adr Glands, definately not the F or D you guys are giving it. Thoughts? I will trust a more experienced Haruspex user to write up a true review.
Can you please explain why you rate it so poorly?
I've run the Haruspex 40 or so times. The Haruspex and Hive Guard are my goto models if I want to intentionally lose a game.
A Haruspex isn't really capable of killing a riptide without help, at least not unless the riptide fails a leadership and gets overrun. If the riptide nova charges its invul, but doesn't have FNP, it will only be taking 0.44 wounds a turn (.88 on the charge assuming A.G.). Compare that to the Hauspex who is taking .75 wounds a turn (1.0 if the riptide charges). A riptide is actually better in assault than a Haruspex. On top of that, a riptide can Kill a Haruspex in shooting without too much trouble.
A Nemesis Dreadknight is even worse. It strikes at a higher initiative, and comes with a psychic power to improve its invul by one, plus for 5 points it can get force which ends the Haruspex before it even gets a chance to swing. But lets assume that the Dreadknight owner was too cheap to give it force. Now, the Haruspex is doing 1.00 wounds, but the 4++ is saving 1/2 so only 0.50 go through, or 1.00 assuming A.G. on the charge. The NDK is doing 2.22 unsaved wounds back or 2.78 on the charge.
So no, the Haruspex is certainly not good at killing Riptides or Nemesis Dreadknights. It can instagib Paladins, but Paladins swing 1st, and have force weapons, so it would require poor play by the opponent for it to pull that trick off. Land Raiders don't fight back so it is capable there. Generally going to take 2 turns to kill one, but at least it isn't suicidal.
As far as using it as a Distraction carnifex. If you feel like Carnifexes are just too cheap, and would really like to throw away some points, then the Haruspex is the model for you.
ductvader wrote: I think that the grades simple need to devolve into letters...no more + or -
I think it's ok to include the +/- system. This helps to further separate the different units. For example, most people will probably agree that flyrants and carnifexes are excellent units. Both units are worthy of an 'A' rating. However, this grading can be misleading to newer players, who look at the grades between the 2 units and think that both are equal because both share the same grades. The +/- helps to differentiate these units even further. Ok, so it's better to take flyrants/carnifexes over the dimachaeron. However, should I take more tyrants or more fexes? The reader then sees that the tyrant is an 'A+' while the carnifex is an 'A'. This helps to provide more info to the reader that, while both units are very good, the flyrant is normally regarded more highly in a Tyranid army. Basically, in the case of units with the same grading level, the +/- gives the reader more info on which units is considered to be better.
I also agree that there needs to be more consistency with the grading....maybe we could set up a community poll for the grades. It wouldn't be hard to simply set up a grading poll, and then all of us could collectively grade each unit after the reviews are finished (and we've read them of course ) the results could then be averaged and put into the entry
While grading by polling is an excellent idea, realistically, it isn't very practical. There is just too many units and different configurations. You also need to give the viewers some time to vote (say, on average, 3-7 days for each unit).
Thus, there are 2 ways to do it. Put the poll here, leave it on for, say 3-5 days, and then put up the next poll. With this method, it may take up to a year just to collect all the samples!
The other way to do it is to open up multiple polls, all at once. This would require perhaps 100+ polling threads to be open. Problem is, besides the management of all of these polls, is this. The more popular units will get voted on. However, the less popular units will barely get any votes, if at all, and will fade away into oblivion in just a couple of days. Moreover, I don't know how significant the sample sizes for those less popular units will be.
For me, it's mainly the time to manage all these polls. Frankly, I just won't have the time to do so. Now if someone is ambitious enough to take on this project, then by all means, go for it. I'd be happy to use the results on the polls if the community here is fine with it.
I'm also a fan of the plus minus system, though I think we've put that to bed, more or less.
What I was suggesting was actually much less contrived than a poll for each unit. You could have a single thread where any user could post their (admittedly subjective) grade of each unit. For example, my post might look something like this:
HQ Options:
Flyrant: A +
Walkrant: C +
Deathleaper: B -
Prime: C
Tervigon: B
Swarmlord: (Not enough experience to grade)
And so on throughout the FOC chart. You could even have people cut and paste the template for each unit to be considered. That way, each person could spend ~ 10 min to grade each model in the entire codex, and one person could consolidate and average the data. The only issue with an approach like this is that it's somewhat of a living document and would require a touch of maintenance to keep this and the overall grades up to date, and to be honest I don't think that's possible with coding. It would probably have to be a once every couple weeks brute force update. I'd be happy to crunch the numbers though. It's probably more work than it's worth, but it also would give more weight to the grades, as they are arguably less subjective.
Fragile wrote: The problem is that all the ratings are entirely subjective of the person who wrote the list. Biovores in my experience have typically been near the top of the MVP choices each battle. They offer so much to the Nid army. Until recently Lictors would have been thrown into that trash department until someone took the time to actually use them and won with them. Whether that is a function of the Lictor, that Player, or that Players meta is unknown. But now everyone is jumping on the Lictor bandwagon.
Lictors on their own are turd. they only work with Mawlocs and in Maelstrom missions. Deathleapers Character and Lictors in general are one of the many factors that got me playing Nids though.
Such an awesome design. I wish they where better!
This is true. But any unit can be improved with the correct settings. Which again makes the rating system hard.
tetrisphreak wrote: I think the problem with rating CQC tyranids is the dimachaeron. Because that model does that particular task so impressively well, none of the other melee tyranids from the codex really stand out in comparison.
Yeah I think it might be "fair" if things got rated with FW as a separate case. Heck I may be old fashioned, but I still really like Screamer-killers, and Adrenal boosted Vanilla-fexen (An "expresso-fex" ) Inside a wrecker node it can be a real "thing" without breaking the bank points wise.
Hey all, Just to drop my tuppence worth in.
I run termagant's with devourer's galore and i never leave home without my hive guard. I know it's only my opinion but these 2 units are for me almost 100% auto include. 2x2 HG and 4x15 devilgaunt's with 5 spike rifles to match the range, backed up with 2x3 strangler warriors.
I call it the 'Nid platoon. It has never failed me yet. Even since before 7th hit. Now backed up with a LAN of course.
I'm pretty sure the consensus on warrior's and HG is about right and I'm just quite lucky with them. Except for my last battle, of course.
But! if you're willing to put the point's in to the termagant's with devourer's? I honestly don't think there is a better unit for sheer anti-infantry firepower in this game.
As some one said before 2x point's for 3x fire-power. For me devil-gaunt's are a solid A.
Also keep up the good work every one. I'm now sure this thread alone has stopped me from ditch'n my 'Nids.
Hive Crone
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
1850
Should be a laugh, Ill try to get some pictures/reports done.
It's a very strong list and a lot of people will have problems against it.
I take it no Forgeworld (no Malanthrope)?
One thing that concerns is the lack of ground forces. Other than the 3 units of gargoyles, there is nothing else to score on Maelstrom-type objectives (if the tourney does run Maelstrom secondaries) unless you risk one of your flyers by landing him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kryczek wrote: Hey all, Just to drop my tuppence worth in.
I run termagant's with devourer's galore and i never leave home without my hive guard. I know it's only my opinion but these 2 units are for me almost 100% auto include. 2x2 HG and 4x15 devilgaunt's with 5 spike rifles to match the range, backed up with 2x3 strangler warriors.
I call it the 'Nid platoon. It has never failed me yet. Even since before 7th hit. Now backed up with a LAN of course.
I'm pretty sure the consensus on warrior's and HG is about right and I'm just quite lucky with them. Except for my last battle, of course.
But! if you're willing to put the point's in to the termagant's with devourer's? I honestly don't think there is a better unit for sheer anti-infantry firepower in this game.
As some one said before 2x point's for 3x fire-power. For me devil-gaunt's are a solid A.
Also keep up the good work every one. I'm now sure this thread alone has stopped me from ditch'n my 'Nids.
Cheer's
You have a good troop-presence in an army that, unfortunately, is somewhat lackluster in its troop slots. Now, that doesn't mean it can't work. It can. The only thing is that you won't be running at peak efficiency because bugs are more optimized with their offense in the other FOC-slots. Hive guards, while still decent in AT, just isn't as good anymore and compared to some of the other units in the dex.
But the main thing is this. If it works for you in your meta, then bravo. Keep at it. For me, I have a harder time seeing it being able to do well in a competitive, tournament setting. Then again, bugs can be full of surprises. Just a couple of weeks back, who'd have thought that someone could win a tournament with a list consisting of Deathleaper, lictors, genestealers and spore mines?
Hive Crone
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
1850
Should be a laugh, Ill try to get some pictures/reports done.
It's a very strong list and a lot of people will have problems against it.
I take it no Forgeworld (no Malanthrope)?
One thing that concerns is the lack of ground forces. Other than the 3 units of gargoyles, there is nothing else to score on Maelstrom-type objectives (if the tourney does run Maelstrom secondaries) unless you risk one of your flyers by landing him.
Thanks JY, I agree, Secondaries could be an issue and Maelstrom will be secondaries.
I really need to read the rules pack...that would help I did have some rippers in there and no Mawloc. I might go back to that after reading the rules pack properly.
My current thinking (and this might be wrong) that if I concentrate on the primary mission and win that I should be good.
I think Caledonian is a very similar style to LVO...? Not 100% sure on that but I get the impression US and UK guys are trying to build a standard model for Competitive 40k events.
I'm also a fan of the plus minus system, though I think we've put that to bed, more or less.
What I was suggesting was actually much less contrived than a poll for each unit. You could have a single thread where any user could post their (admittedly subjective) grade of each unit. For example, my post might look something like this:
HQ Options:
Flyrant: A +
Walkrant: C +
Deathleaper: B -
Prime: C
Tervigon: B
Swarmlord: (Not enough experience to grade)
And so on throughout the FOC chart. You could even have people cut and paste the template for each unit to be considered. That way, each person could spend ~ 10 min to grade each model in the entire codex, and one person could consolidate and average the data. The only issue with an approach like this is that it's somewhat of a living document and would require a touch of maintenance to keep this and the overall grades up to date, and to be honest I don't think that's possible with coding. It would probably have to be a once every couple weeks brute force update. I'd be happy to crunch the numbers though. It's probably more work than it's worth, but it also would give more weight to the grades, as they are arguably less subjective.
Well, if enough people start posting their grading here (or in a separate thread), then I'd be happy to use the collected/tabulated data here in the main tactica. And if someone takes the time to organize/manage this project, then I'd be happy to use their data. Probably better to organize it per FOC slot.
Here would be my HQ grades:
Shooty Flyrant: A+
CC Flyrant: C
Shooty Walkrant: B
CC Walkrant: D
Deathleaper: D
Old One Eye: D
Prime: C
Tervigon: B
Swarmlord: B
Tyrant Guard: B-/C+ (crushing claws/vanilla)
Hive Crone
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
1850
Should be a laugh, Ill try to get some pictures/reports done.
It's a very strong list and a lot of people will have problems against it.
I take it no Forgeworld (no Malanthrope)?
One thing that concerns is the lack of ground forces. Other than the 3 units of gargoyles, there is nothing else to score on Maelstrom-type objectives (if the tourney does run Maelstrom secondaries) unless you risk one of your flyers by landing him.
Thanks JY, I agree, Secondaries could be an issue and Maelstrom will be secondaries.
I really need to read the rules pack...that would help I did have some rippers in there and no Mawloc. I might go back to that after reading the rules pack properly.
My current thinking (and this might be wrong) that if I concentrate on the primary mission and win that I should be good.
I think Caledonian is a very similar style to LVO...? Not 100% sure on that but I get the impression US and UK guys are trying to build a standard model for Competitive 40k events.
Cally has now adopted the UKGT mission pack.
All though reading through the rules pack now, they seemed to have missed out how each game is scored, to work out the winner...
Hive Crone
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
1850
Should be a laugh, Ill try to get some pictures/reports done.
I thought my list was strong with 4 FMC but 7? Eeesh.
Although, harpies do suck and are a huge tax.
Interested to see how your practice matches go.
Also just to note, finally ordered my Harradin and it's safe to say that I am incredibly stoked to run triple Flyrant/ Harradin combo later this month.
Why don't other people take harry? He's an absolute monster!
I would disagree a little that Harpies suck.
They are an annoyance with their Spore Bombs.
Also threatening to double out a Farseer on a Bike with Venom Cannons is nice.
I think it's more about getting the most out of the unit, increasing its threat value, just another thing on the board for the opponent to worry about.
And they can take objectives late game.
Hive Crone
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
1850
Should be a laugh, Ill try to get some pictures/reports done.
I thought my list was strong with 4 FMC but 7? Eeesh.
Although, harpies do suck and are a huge tax.
Interested to see how your practice matches go.
Also just to note, finally ordered my Harradin and it's safe to say that I am incredibly stoked to run triple Flyrant/ Harradin combo later this month.
Why don't other people take harry? He's an absolute monster!
I was looking at running a similar list, but I can't warrant the Harpy tax, so I'm thinking of more a second turn drop list. I'd love to get a Harridan and use it, but much like my Barbed Heirodule, it is condemned to being comped out of most events in the UK as they all insist on using percentage caps, and points caps, rather than just banning the LoW that are an issue.
What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
Verviedi wrote: What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
I'm not sure how you would fit 4 into 1500 unless you go double CAD?
I can just about squeeze 4 in taking the new detachment and skyblight at 1650.
Edit: I guess there's the Gliding Flyrant/Gargoyle formation option you could use...
Verviedi wrote: What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
My normal rule-of-thumb is that any "deathstar" army/unit should take no more than 50% of your army, give or take. Around 50%, you can still build a TAC deathstar list. However, if you go more than 50%, it then becomes an unbalanced "deathstar" build.
In this case, the flyrants act as your "deathstars". And at 1500, I wouldn't recommend taking more than 3 (720-pts, or about 48% of the army) if you still want to have a balanced Tyranid list. Note - 3 flyrants at 1500-pts will seem "dirty" to most casual players, so I don't recommend you running trip-flyrants unless in a tournament or against other competitive players.
Verviedi wrote: What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
I'm not sure how you would fit 4 into 1500 unless you go double CAD?
I can just about squeeze 4 in taking the new detachment and skyblight at 1650.
Edit: I guess there's the Gliding Flyrant/Gargoyle formation option you could use...
While not RAW, most of the US tournaments allow self-allying.
Would anyone considering taking a CAD over a Hive Fleet Detachment if only to get Aegis/Bastion w/ Comms Relay?
I'm considering running a list with 2 Flyrants, two min unit Neurothropes in a Pod and two Dakkafex and thinking the Comms Relay would be much more useful than re-roll IB
Frozocrone wrote: Would anyone considering taking a CAD over a Hive Fleet Detachment if only to get Aegis/Bastion w/ Comms Relay?
I'm considering running a list with 2 Flyrants, two min unit Neurothropes in a Pod and two Dakkafex and thinking the Comms Relay would be much more useful than re-roll IB
The Leviathan detachment is not necessarily an auto-take. Many will run it to max out on flyrants. However, there will be some who won't base their offense primarily on those flyrants. Thus, a normal CAD is still viable, especially for the fortification.
Or you could just run Leviathan + normal CAD if you really wanted.
Frozocrone wrote: Would anyone considering taking a CAD over a Hive Fleet Detachment if only to get Aegis/Bastion w/ Comms Relay?
I'm considering running a list with 2 Flyrants, two min unit Neurothropes in a Pod and two Dakkafex and thinking the Comms Relay would be much more useful than re-roll IB
The Leviathan detachment is not necessarily an auto-take. Many will run it to max out on flyrants. However, there will be some who won't base their offense primarily on those flyrants. Thus, a normal CAD is still viable, especially for the fortification.
Or you could just run Leviathan + normal CAD if you really wanted.
^^ this. There are only 4 reasons not to run Leviathan + normal CAD:
1) Your local TO deems it OP and disallows it
2) You agree with Ordosean and think it's too much like double CAD, so you restrict yourself
3) You really dislike Mucolids (the normal 45 point tax to open Leviathan)
4) You use a formation of some kind, thus disallowing both Leviathan and a CAD under the standard two source format
I plan on trying it out just to see what I can do with a bunch of Lictors. I think 2.5 extra lictors might be better over Deathleaper, so I'll throw 5-6 to fill up the Elites slots and see what happens from there. I don't plan on running a bunch of Flyrants, but I'll definitely be excited to see how our army fares in the next tournament that allows this.
I think we would all agree it is a very, very powerful list, and I think most of us agree that using it would be a dick move and create unfun games.
For myself, I'm not going to run 2 CAD or Leviathan plus CAD, or even Leviathan plus Tyranid Ally. If that means I'm not in competition to win tournaments so be it. But at least my games will still be fun, and I will have held up my end of the social contract involved in 40k.
Frozocrone wrote: Would anyone considering taking a CAD over a Hive Fleet Detachment if only to get Aegis/Bastion w/ Comms Relay?
I'm considering running a list with 2 Flyrants, two min unit Neurothropes in a Pod and two Dakkafex and thinking the Comms Relay would be much more useful than re-roll IB
The Leviathan detachment is not necessarily an auto-take. Many will run it to max out on flyrants. However, there will be some who won't base their offense primarily on those flyrants. Thus, a normal CAD is still viable, especially for the fortification.
Or you could just run Leviathan + normal CAD if you really wanted.
^^ this. There are only 4 reasons not to run Leviathan + normal CAD:
1) Your local TO deems it OP and disallows it
2) You agree with Ordosean and think it's too much like double CAD, so you restrict yourself
3) You really dislike Mucolids (the normal 45 point tax to open Leviathan)
4) You use a formation of some kind, thus disallowing both Leviathan and a CAD under the standard two source format
I plan on trying it out just to see what I can do with a bunch of Lictors. I think 2.5 extra lictors might be better over Deathleaper, so I'll throw 5-6 to fill up the Elites slots and see what happens from there. I don't plan on running a bunch of Flyrants, but I'll definitely be excited to see how our army fares in the next tournament that allows this.
Or you have a meta were OS + BRB tables are stronger than the extra HQ and Troops. While the leviathan table is better than the Codex table, it still leaves a lot to be desired.
I think we would all agree it is a very, very powerful list, and I think most of us agree that using it would be a dick move and create unfun games.
For myself, I'm not going to run 2 CAD or Leviathan plus CAD, or even Leviathan plus Tyranid Ally. If that means I'm not in competition to win tournaments so be it. But at least my games will still be fun, and I will have held up my end of the social contract involved in 40k.
Awwww....tag, you're going to make me feel guilty for running 5 flyrants in my next game.
Was planning on showing how ridiculous 5 flyrants is going to be in the new meta for my next batrep. This is what I was planning on running:
barnowl wrote: Or you have a meta were OS + BRB tables are stronger than the extra HQ and Troops. While the leviathan table is better than the Codex table, it still leaves a lot to be desired.
Indeed, the Leviathan Warlord traits do have a couple of lame ducks and Strategic is still a very powerful table for the Tyranids (especially since you can re-roll on it, giving you a reasonable chance at Master of Ambush, and failing that Night Attacker, Strategic Genius and Divide to Conquer are all reasonably useful.
If you are running Skyblight then you're already able to bring three Tyrants (four is a lot of points to invest in Tyrants, which do have their weaknesses), similarly if you have designs on running Hypertoxic or Skytyrant then you can get a third flier in their (for less of an investment than Skyblight too).
Leviathan does let you re-roll IB rolls (just the D6 part by my reading?), but how useful that is to you depends on what you bring. A Crone for instance hates IB regardless of the result (but equally if it lets you re-roll the 2D6 test then it's actually pretty good).
Iechine wrote: Serpent spam the last two years = go to tournament list
Tyranids underdog for a long timethen get Tyrant spam = dick move
For many in tournament play, go-to-tournament list = dick move. LOL!!!
You know what's funny? You're going to see many of the competitive players - the same ones who have been running Eldar, Tau, centurionstar and other highly competitive tournament builds - coming back to Tyranids. These competitive players have a tendency to jump around to the newest competitive builds, and right now, Tyranids is it.
Iechine wrote: Serpent spam the last two years = go to tournament list Tyranids underdog for a long timethen get Tyrant spam = dick move
For many in tournament play, go-to-tournament list = dick move. LOL!!!
You know what's funny? You're going to see many of the competitive players - the same ones who have been running Eldar, Tau, centurionstar and other highly competitive tournament builds - coming back to Tyranids. These competitive players have a tendency to jump around to the newest competitive builds, and right now, Tyranids is it.
Yes and it's this that is going to cause me concern for a while anyway, as people tailor their lists to deal with TripRants :( On the flipside, it gives me more incentive to pick up my DE so that my locals don't say 'OMG OP, you're so cheesy for playing Tyranids when they are the best army out there' despite playing Nids when they only had the new Codex
Anyway, appreciate the feedback regarding Hive Fleet vs CAD everyone!
barnowl wrote: Or you have a meta were OS + BRB tables are stronger than the extra HQ and Troops. While the leviathan table is better than the Codex table, it still leaves a lot to be desired.
Indeed, the Leviathan Warlord traits do have a couple of lame ducks and Strategic is still a very powerful table for the Tyranids (especially since you can re-roll on it, giving you a reasonable chance at Master of Ambush, and failing that Night Attacker, Strategic Genius and Divide to Conquer are all reasonably useful.
If you are running Skyblight then you're already able to bring three Tyrants (four is a lot of points to invest in Tyrants, which do have their weaknesses), similarly if you have designs on running Hypertoxic or Skytyrant then you can get a third flier in their (for less of an investment than Skyblight too).
Leviathan does let you re-roll IB rolls (just the D6 part by my reading?), but how useful that is to you depends on what you bring. A Crone for instance hates IB regardless of the result (but equally if it lets you re-roll the 2D6 test then it's actually pretty good).
For the most part IB Feed looks pretty Crone friendly. Your going to be shooting things anyway.
barnowl wrote: Or you have a meta were OS + BRB tables are stronger than the extra HQ and Troops. While the leviathan table is better than the Codex table, it still leaves a lot to be desired.
Indeed, the Leviathan Warlord traits do have a couple of lame ducks and Strategic is still a very powerful table for the Tyranids (especially since you can re-roll on it, giving you a reasonable chance at Master of Ambush, and failing that Night Attacker, Strategic Genius and Divide to Conquer are all reasonably useful.
If you are running Skyblight then you're already able to bring three Tyrants (four is a lot of points to invest in Tyrants, which do have their weaknesses), similarly if you have designs on running Hypertoxic or Skytyrant then you can get a third flier in their (for less of an investment than Skyblight too).
Leviathan does let you re-roll IB rolls (just the D6 part by my reading?), but how useful that is to you depends on what you bring. A Crone for instance hates IB regardless of the result (but equally if it lets you re-roll the 2D6 test then it's actually pretty good).
Yeah, I think the coolest thing to come out is that it can make sense to use several different formation. For a good while it was Skyblight if you want to go all in, LAN for a smaller buy-in. Now both Hyper toxic, and Skytyrant look like viable choices.
But I am still not sure about Leviathan vs base CAD...giving up Strategic for a third Tyrant is not an easy choice... I think I lean towards base CAD, and a Skytyrant, or a Hyper-toxic node...
Yeah, I think the coolest thing to come out is that it can make sense to use several different formation. For a good while it was Skyblight if you want to go all in, LAN for a smaller buy-in. Now both Hyper toxic, and Skytyrant look like viable choices.
But I am still not sure about Leviathan vs base CAD...giving up Strategic and the bastion for a third Tyrant is not an easy choice... I think I lean towards base CAD, and a Skytyrant, or a Hyper-toxic node...
Verviedi wrote: What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
I'd agree with them! I'd even say there is better options at 1850! 2 is a comfortable number for me, sometimes 3 at 1850 but most the time not
Verviedi wrote: What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
Depends on playstyle preference really. From experience, 3 Flyrants is tough to deal with, especially at 1000, where it took up almost 3/4 of my armies points. They survived all game (bar one, which was the main target of the alpha strike and then only died on T3 due to Perils) and that was against MechTau (reduced to only the Commander left).
That said, I'm thinking of crafting a 1850 list with 2 Flyrants and instead making use of Dakkafex Pods.
There is a negative correlation between amount of Flyrants I run and how many potential opponents I have.
Verviedi wrote: What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
There is a negative correlation between amount of Flyrants I run and how many potential opponents I have.
4 Flyrants at 1500 isn't really any different than 5 at 1850, except that it's more difficult for your opponent to deal with, especially if he's bringing a TAC list. That being said, I wouldn't run either of those lists (or even 4 Flyrants at 1850) unless someone specifically asked me to. It's a very tough list and ABSOLUTELY makes people less inclined to play you. It's just not fun for them, and a good opponent will see the 2 hour beat down that they're about to take and avoid it accordingly. If your opponent wants to play against a tournament list, I'd still tell them what you want to bring because it is definitely a viable (and possibly very good) tournament list that they would have to face in that setting. But outside of a tournament or tournament practice, it doesn't really have any place in a casual setting. It ties up a lot of points, yes, but Tyranids are able to support it adequately and make it work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AdeptSister wrote: So how long do you think it will take for the meta to include more skyfire in lists?
It almost doesn't matter. People do include some Skyfire as is, but Tyranids are still somewhat of a counter-meta army when they go Flyrant spam, even with Daemons being a force in the FMC meta. So people have to think, "I have a relatively small chance of facing FMC spam from Tyranids/Daemons, so I should include some Skyfire". Daemons have some difficulty dealing with this due to less than awesome shooting, but Tyranids have more volume of fire, so they typically can deal with whatever AA your opponent brought and then rampage about anyhow. If they bring enough AA to deal with Tyranids, then they are disadvantaging themselves against the rest of the field (except maybe Daemons and some select units from other armies). In short, it's a lose-lose for them and a win-win for us
Yeah, I think the coolest thing to come out is that it can make sense to use several different formation. For a good while it was Skyblight if you want to go all in, LAN for a smaller buy-in. Now both Hyper toxic, and Skytyrant look like viable choices.
But I am still not sure about Leviathan vs base CAD...giving up Strategic and the bastion for a third Tyrant is not an easy choice... I think I lean towards base CAD, and a Skytyrant, or a Hyper-toxic node...
Iechine wrote: Serpent spam the last two years = go to tournament list
Tyranids underdog for a long timethen get Tyrant spam = dick move
Playing serpent spam (min squads inside) is a dick move. No argument from me. You wouldn't catch me putting that crap on the table.
Not a dick move because I enjoy playing against the stiffest competition possible, however not my personal cup of tea for an army I'd like to bring to the table. Seems kinda boring, and OPness would suck the fun out of every win.
The cousin of the barbed hierodule, the scythed hierodule (SH) is not quite as versatile as his brethren, due mainly to his lack of shooting. However, he is a more dangerous monster in Assault and is better at clearing out infantry than his cousin. So why should one consider the scythed hierodule as his Lord of War?
1. Shooting. Now you may think, huh? What shooting? Simply put, the scythed hierodule has arguably the best weapon for clearing out standard infantry in the Tyranid arsenal. The S6 AP3 "gun" of the scythed hierodule uses the massive, Apocalypse Hellstorm template. What's more, it will deny FNP from any of the T3 units that it hits, and it will hit any unit within an open-topped vehicle that is caught in its crosshairs.
2. He is deadly in assault. The SH will kill all but the toughest units in close combat. It will also kill most non-super-heavy tanks in just 1 round of combat. Against deathstar or the more elite Assault units, it has its fearsome stomp attacks as well.
3. Mobility. The BH is quite fast, due to its 12" move and Move Through Cover. It's also got the Agile rule, meaning that it can run double-time or it can run and still fire 1 gun. In essence, you will always be running with the SH unless you are planning to assault.
4. Board control/area denial. Because of his mobility and lethality in combat, very few enemy units, with the exception of dedicated enemy Assault units, will want to go near him. This makes him a great tool for the Tyranid player to use to direct the enemy to where he wants. In most cases, the SH is great as a board control unit and to deny the opposing army lots of real estate on the battlefield.
5. Bullet magnet. Although he can be taken down with enough shooting, the SH can also absorb a lot of firepower, thus making it easier for the rest of the army. If you keep a venom/malanthrope by his side (and if there are ruins nearby), it is not too hard to give him 2+ cover. Combined with his high Toughness and his natural FNP, he becomes highly resistant to most shooting. As long as you play him aggressively, and if you can move him from ruins to ruins for some cover, he WILL draw and absorb a lot of fire if the opponent has the guns to do so. When he does, that is a very good thing for the rest of the army.
Now he isn't without his limitations. He has some weaknesses that you need to take into consideration when fielding him on the table:
1. He is actually no harder to shoot down than an Eldar wraithknight. He is only slightly more resilient due to his natural FNP and with the presence of a malan/venomthrope. However, with him being so fast, he has a tendency to outpace any malan/venomthropes that are protecting him.
2. Assault. While he is very good in assault, you do have to be careful of what you are assaulting with him. Lack of an Invulnerable save, low Initiative, lack of grenades, lack of any re-rolls to hit and a low number of wounds means that he is at a disadvantage against some of the better assault units out there. The faster Imperial Knights with their D-weapons, massed S8 AP2 attacks (i.e. thunderhammers, power klaws), targets with good Invulnerable saves, Grey Knight force weapons, massed rending and deathstar builds can usually kill it in assault. Other units like wraithknights can also kill it if it had already taken wounds.
3. Lack of shooting. Though his bio-acid spray is great against normal infantry, it isn't quite as effective against tanks (other than open-topped AV10 transports) and elite units (monstrous creatures or units with 2+ saves). It can do nothing to flying units.
4. He is expensive for what he does. He cannot insta-kill other wraithknights, riptides, dreadknights and other MC's unlike the dimachaeron. He's got low Weapon Skill and low Initiative for a primarily close combat unit. In order words, he is just not as efficient in killing as some of the other assault units. For his price, you could almost get 2 dimachaerons in tyrannocytes and they would kill things much more efficiently in assault. The only advantage he has in assault is his stomp attacks and that he can more reliably kill enemy tanks. Also, he lacks the resiliency to go toe-to-toe against some of the better enemy assault units. Even 2 wraithknights, who still cost less than him combined but has almost double his resiliency, can beat him in combat if all 3 were in combat together.
Grade: B (normal 40K games), C (larger, Apoc-sized games)
badula wrote: Sorry if this has already been pointed out but....
have you seen the deathstorm pics?
carnifex is on an oval base
broodlord too!
mib on 32 mm bases....
Men this could lead to a SHITSTORM not a deathstorm....
your thoughts?
105mm Oval Base and 1 x 75mm Oval Base respectively. That will be interesting for sure.
"Shield of Baal: Deathstorm contains the Blood Angels Strike Force Deathstorm, and the Tyranids’ Phodian Annihilation Swarm." Personally just hoping the PAS does something good for 'stealers.
So what do you do if you have models with the old bases and get some more with the new bases and don't want to rebase? Buy more old bases, use both bases?
durecellrabbit wrote: So what do you do if you have models with the old bases and get some more with the new bases and don't want to rebase? Buy more old bases, used both bases?
you are getting to my POV...
of course is not a problem if i play at my local friendly club....
but.... tournaments???
with this gw is creating loopholes.... just the things this game needs!^^
durecellrabbit wrote: So what do you do if you have models with the old bases and get some more with the new bases and don't want to rebase? Buy more old bases, used both bases?
you are getting to my POV...
of course is not a problem if i play at my local friendly club....
but.... tournaments???
with this gw is creating loopholes.... just the things this game needs!^^
Honestly, as mentioned before, it don't think that something as minor as that is going to be neither game changing or game breaking, it's just a base.
I'm just happy tyranids finally get some attention we needed, I might even get my hopes up that the next dex might be better
Apparently that Carnifex is a special Carnifex, or from what I read.
I can't see GW enforcing large bases for Carnifexes, they are appropriately based and they've still got lots of Carnifex on shelves with the old bases.
Then again, I can see them saying 'oh, that was the wrong base, here buy this one from us'
Frozocrone wrote: I can't see GW enforcing large bases for Carnifexes, they are appropriately based and they've still got lots of Carnifex on shelves with the old bases.
GW doesn't care about that sort of thing (specific rules). Its our local 40k community and tournaments that can choose to adopt or not new base sizes, and they are going to be very reasonable about it.
Both bases will be grandfathered in until a new tyranid codex.
I'm planning on getting plastic and cut in the right dimensions and gluing my 7 Fexes and 22 warriors to the new size, and then use basing material to integrate them.
Anyone else notice that the Spawn of Cryptus is described as being able to use 2 sets of rules the Spawn of Cryptus with apparently enhanced hive mind link so possible synapse and more powers than just The Horror, or a basic Broodlord?
barnowl wrote: Anyone else notice that the Spawn of Cryptus is described as being able to use 2 sets of rules the Spawn of Cryptus with apparently enhanced hive mind link so possible synapse and more powers than just The Horror, or a basic Broodlord?
We'll know in a couple days- the fluff usually says one thing while the rules say another.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and Broodlords have access to two powers currently- Horror and the primaris.
Frozocrone wrote: Apparently that Carnifex is a special Carnifex, or from what I read.
Not exactly. If the Deathstorm follows the same style with its dataslates as the ones In the Stormclaw set, it will just be a Carnifex with its biomorphs and the rules for said biomorphs included in the profile with maybe a special rule tacked on (probably something to mitigate IB: Feed, since it is the only creature in the set that has to worry about instinctive behavior - also keeps in line with what they did with the Killa Kans prior).
Still, I'm actually not too bothered by the idea of the 'fex going to an oval base. As it stands now, they barely fit on the 60mm and it is quite easy to get them tangled up on other models when piling into combat. Also, the switch to an oval base will make the Bio-Flail Stonecrushers really nasty...
In the short run, rebasing significant parts of my collection will infuriate me, but in the long run... well, i'll just say this.
For about a year, the wife and I shifted to Warmahordes, thinking it would be a good second game. One of the WORST offenses of that game, is that in a system where facing matters, their modelers are allowed to go buck-wild and make unwieldy messes of miniatures that often over-hang their based by huge amounts. Oh, and now you're expected to get those (usually) within half an inch of other likewise weird models.
Its a pet peeve of mine, but if WH40k eventually mitigates that sort of clumsiness a bit, i'm ok with it (though my Toxicrene will continue to be a nightmare... who thought those tentacles were good ideas??)
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Its a pet peeve of mine, but if WH40k eventually mitigates that sort of clumsiness a bit, i'm ok with it (though my Toxicrene will continue to be a nightmare... who thought those tentacles were good ideas??)
I agree. It is a stupid design. What were they thinking? If I ever build one I'm going to reshape the tentacles. Same story for the Tyrrannocyte.
Hive Crone
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
1850
First game was Big Guns primary, Secondary was Tactical Escalation, Tertiary was rulebok secondaries with First Strike rather than first blood. Hammer and Anvil Deployment.
I played:
Commander with Marker Drones.
3 Riptides
2 lots of kroot + hound.
Summoning Farseer.
2 Serpents, dire avengers and 6 WraithGuard.
WraithKnight.
I pretty much killed the Serpents and kroot.
We took a draw on Primary, I one secondary and tertiary.
Second match was:
Primary Mission, Purge The Alien
Secondary Mission (Maelstrom of War) Cleanse and Control
Tertiary, Slay the Warlord , Line Breaker , 1st Strike
He had:
3 WraithKnights.
1 warlock.
Summoning farseer (although no summoning as this was kill points).
5 Serpents with Dire Avengers.
I took primary and he took secondary and Tertiary resulting in a draw 10/10.
I killed all Serpents and didn't lose a single Flyrant.
Last game was:
Primary, The Scouring. Secondary, Deadlock
Tertiary Slay the Warlord , Line Breaker , 1st Strike
lots and lots of Orks in lots of trukks.
I took Primary, secondary and Tertiary.
Almost tabled him apart from warlord and a big mek left.
won 20 - 0
I love 4 Flyrants, pretty sure I didn't make any friends today I finished 3rd over all.
Frozocrone wrote: Would anyone considering taking a CAD over a Hive Fleet Detachment if only to get Aegis/Bastion w/ Comms Relay?
I'm considering running a list with 2 Flyrants, two min unit Neurothropes in a Pod and two Dakkafex and thinking the Comms Relay would be much more useful than re-roll IB
The Leviathan detachment is not necessarily an auto-take. Many will run it to max out on flyrants. However, there will be some who won't base their offense primarily on those flyrants. Thus, a normal CAD is still viable, especially for the fortification.
Or you could just run Leviathan + normal CAD if you really wanted.
^^ this. There are only 4 reasons not to run Leviathan + normal CAD:
1) Your local TO deems it OP and disallows it
2) You agree with Ordosean and think it's too much like double CAD, so you restrict yourself
3) You really dislike Mucolids (the normal 45 point tax to open Leviathan)
4) You use a formation of some kind, thus disallowing both Leviathan and a CAD under the standard two source format
I plan on trying it out just to see what I can do with a bunch of Lictors. I think 2.5 extra lictors might be better over Deathleaper, so I'll throw 5-6 to fill up the Elites slots and see what happens from there. I don't plan on running a bunch of Flyrants, but I'll definitely be excited to see how our army fares in the next tournament that allows this.
I'm not too concerned about the new bases. The majority will win out so all the current bases should be good. Besides, GW used to have a policy that you could always use the bases included with the models. I wouldn't even sweat it. Current bases should be good at tournaments for a while.
Only 2 choices. The LoW isn't a 3rd detachment. He is either part of the Primary or the Leviathan detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
L0rdF1end wrote: Sadly I don't have any pictures to show you as we were playing 2.5 hours and 1850 so it was all a bit of a squeeze to get the game turns in.
Hive Crone
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
1850
First game was Big Guns primary, Secondary was Tactical Escalation, Tertiary was rulebok secondaries with First Strike rather than first blood. Hammer and Anvil Deployment.
I played:
Commander with Marker Drones.
3 Riptides
2 lots of kroot + hound.
Summoning Farseer.
2 Serpents, dire avengers and 6 WraithGuard.
WraithKnight.
I pretty much killed the Serpents and kroot.
We took a draw on Primary, I one secondary and tertiary.
Second match was:
Primary Mission, Purge The Alien
Secondary Mission (Maelstrom of War) Cleanse and Control
Tertiary, Slay the Warlord , Line Breaker , 1st Strike
He had:
3 WraithKnights.
1 warlock.
Summoning farseer (although no summoning as this was kill points).
5 Serpents with Dire Avengers.
I took primary and he took secondary and Tertiary resulting in a draw 10/10.
I killed all Serpents and didn't lose a single Flyrant.
Last game was:
Primary, The Scouring. Secondary, Deadlock
Tertiary Slay the Warlord , Line Breaker , 1st Strike
lots and lots of Orks in lots of trukks.
I took Primary, secondary and Tertiary.
Almost tabled him apart from warlord and a big mek left.
won 20 - 0
I love 4 Flyrants, pretty sure I didn't make any friends today I finished 3rd over all.
Happy to answer questions if you have any.
Nice!
Did you kill any of the wraithknights or did you just ignored them?
Yeah, Hive Fleet Leviathan + Skyblight is going to be sic! Probably one of the more successful Tyranid builds in tournament play. Then again, there's going to be so many good armies you can build with 4 flyrants.
Frozocrone wrote: Would anyone considering taking a CAD over a Hive Fleet Detachment if only to get Aegis/Bastion w/ Comms Relay?
I'm considering running a list with 2 Flyrants, two min unit Neurothropes in a Pod and two Dakkafex and thinking the Comms Relay would be much more useful than re-roll IB
The Leviathan detachment is not necessarily an auto-take. Many will run it to max out on flyrants. However, there will be some who won't base their offense primarily on those flyrants. Thus, a normal CAD is still viable, especially for the fortification.
Or you could just run Leviathan + normal CAD if you really wanted.
^^ this. There are only 4 reasons not to run Leviathan + normal CAD:
1) Your local TO deems it OP and disallows it
2) You agree with Ordosean and think it's too much like double CAD, so you restrict yourself
3) You really dislike Mucolids (the normal 45 point tax to open Leviathan)
4) You use a formation of some kind, thus disallowing both Leviathan and a CAD under the standard two source format
I plan on trying it out just to see what I can do with a bunch of Lictors. I think 2.5 extra lictors might be better over Deathleaper, so I'll throw 5-6 to fill up the Elites slots and see what happens from there. I don't plan on running a bunch of Flyrants, but I'll definitely be excited to see how our army fares in the next tournament that allows this.
You are forgetting one:
5) You cant run the Barbed Heirodule.
6) You want to run an ally from another army (like Knights).
Fun little stupid thing I just realized about the new Fighter Ace. If you are lucky enough to get a majority of your FMCs with Sudden Escape, go second.
By going second you will be able to have you FMCs back on the field before the game turns ends, thus you can't loose from having no models on the board. If enough of your army has Sudden Escape, you will basically get free shooting against your opponent, and they will be staring at an empty table for their turn except for the few troops (or psychic powers).
Only 2 choices. The LoW isn't a 3rd detachment. He is either part of the Primary or the Leviathan detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
L0rdF1end wrote: Sadly I don't have any pictures to show you as we were playing 2.5 hours and 1850 so it was all a bit of a squeeze to get the game turns in.
Hive Crone
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
Harpy TL Venom Cannon
1850
First game was Big Guns primary, Secondary was Tactical Escalation, Tertiary was rulebok secondaries with First Strike rather than first blood. Hammer and Anvil Deployment.
I played:
Commander with Marker Drones.
3 Riptides
2 lots of kroot + hound.
Summoning Farseer.
2 Serpents, dire avengers and 6 WraithGuard.
WraithKnight.
I pretty much killed the Serpents and kroot.
We took a draw on Primary, I one secondary and tertiary.
Second match was:
Primary Mission, Purge The Alien
Secondary Mission (Maelstrom of War) Cleanse and Control
Tertiary, Slay the Warlord , Line Breaker , 1st Strike
He had:
3 WraithKnights.
1 warlock.
Summoning farseer (although no summoning as this was kill points).
5 Serpents with Dire Avengers.
I took primary and he took secondary and Tertiary resulting in a draw 10/10.
I killed all Serpents and didn't lose a single Flyrant.
Last game was:
Primary, The Scouring. Secondary, Deadlock
Tertiary Slay the Warlord , Line Breaker , 1st Strike
lots and lots of Orks in lots of trukks.
I took Primary, secondary and Tertiary.
Almost tabled him apart from warlord and a big mek left.
won 20 - 0
I love 4 Flyrants, pretty sure I didn't make any friends today I finished 3rd over all.
Happy to answer questions if you have any.
Nice!
Did you kill any of the wraithknights or did you just ignored them?
Yeah, Hive Fleet Leviathan + Skyblight is going to be sic! Probably one of the more successful Tyranid builds in tournament play. Then again, there's going to be so many good armies you can build with 4 flyrants.
I must try out the Barbed Hierodule that you guys rave about so much, Not sure what that will do to my list though.
Just ignored the wraith knights as usual along with the Riptides. maybe a shot here and there from Warp Blast but otherwise its the same deal as usual.
I don't get the deal with the Malanthrope either, just seems he could die to easy to a Wraith Knight as he's so big and difficult to hide.
Personally (without trying the Maly, Barbie), I'm still in favour of Skyblight as it brings durable units that can score late game along with OS Gargs,
Nilok wrote: Fun little stupid thing I just realized about the new Fighter Ace. If you are lucky enough to get a majority of your FMCs with Sudden Escape, go second.
By going second you will be able to have you FMCs back on the field before the game turns ends, thus you can't loose from having no models on the board. If enough of your army has Sudden Escape, you will basically get free shooting against your opponent, and they will be staring at an empty table for their turn except for the few troops (or psychic powers).
Yeah, that can be quite good.
However, to me, 35-pts is quite a steep price to pay for a 66% to get something good and only 33% for the flying off the table ability, which actually limits your Movement. Maybe for my Warlord, but I can't see myself spamming this.
I must try out the Barbed Hierodule that you guys rave about so much, Not sure what that will do to my list though.
Just ignored the wraith knights as usual along with the Riptides. maybe a shot here and there from Warp Blast but otherwise its the same deal as usual.
I don't get the deal with the Malanthrope either, just seems he could die to easy to a Wraith Knight as he's so big and difficult to hide.
Personally (without trying the Maly, Barbie), I'm still in favour of Skyblight as it brings durable units that can score late game along with OS Gargs,
The Malanthrope is a worthy upgrade over the venomthrope for most Tyranid army builds (not necessarily all).
The BH, while good, is not necessarily a must-take unit for any Tyranid army. Rather, to me, he is more of a playstyle-choice. Personally, I think MSU Tyranids (or Tyranids + Skyblight) > Tyranids + BH.
Then again, InControl did beat me out with his Barbed Hierodule Tyranid army for Best Tyranids at the BAO 2014 (I was running Skyblight and finished 2nd, though I was ahead of him going into our very last game). Lol.
My thoughts were that the Nids would act as Anti air but otherwise being all over their deployment zone.
Horrors and fatey would hang out back and everything summoned would be midtable or his table half.
Screamerstar can just sit there and tie up a Wraith Knight or whatever.
Personally, the Deathleaper is somewhat of a letdown to me compared to the previous edition. He really doesn't have anything special to offer to the army. But before I go into why he is such a disappointment in this edition, let us examine how he can contribute to a Tyranid army first.
1. The ability to pop up anyone on the table without scatter is highly useful. You can place him on an objective if you need. You can put him behind a vehicle for some rear shots. You can use him to lure enemy resources away from your main force as your opponent has to dedicate some of his resources to deal with your HQ. Basically, with Chameleonic Skin, you can dictate where you want your opponent to go to a degree.
2. Homing beacon. With the advent of Tyranid spore pods (tyrannocytes), he has become more useful than ever. Infiltrate him in a strategic location and the following turn, when you mawlocs or pods come in, they can do so accurately, assuming as long as Deathleaper survives.
3. He is actually an offensive threat to transports and smaller, MSU-type units. As a result, he really cannot be ignored and the opponent will have to deal with him and in doing so, you can direct where you want your opponent to go. It also helps to make your army slightly more durable as your opponent has to allocate some of his firepower/offense to deal with your HQ.
4. Bullet catcher. He is very durable to shooting thanks to his "Where Is It?" special rule. He can actually absorb a lot of firepower due to enemy units only being able to snap-shoot against it. So if your opponent decides to shoot at him, he would actually have to put a lot of resources/firepower into doing so. That means less guns against the rest of the Tyranid army.
5. "It's After Me!" This special rule of Deathleaper can be useful at times. It helps against MC characters against powers like the Horror and Psychic Scream. It also helps when an enemy character has to take a Perils in the Warp LD test.
Despite his general utility, the Deathleaper has actually gotten worse than in the previous edition. So why is he not as good?
1. Limited mobility. Before, he had an ability where he could go back into Reserves and redeploy anywhere he wanted. Now, that ability is gone and with it, basically his awesome mobility. Now he comes in from Reserves and he becomes a sitting duck, especially if he is your Warlord.
2. "It's After Me!" has been nerfed due to the changes in how Psychic Powers work. Before, the greatest asset of this special rule was that it would make it harder for psykers to get off their psychic powers (due to psychic tests testing on LD rather than on warp dice). Now, the special rule is reduced to more esoteric applications with more criteria that needs to be fulfilled before it can become useful.
3. He is vulnerable in Assault. T4 with 5+ means that he can very easily be killed in assault to anything other than a min-sized MSU unit. And with his lack of mobility, he just can't get away from some of the faster assault units.
4. No Synapse. For an HQ unit, he provides no Synapse relief, nor does he provide much in terms of offense or force-multiplication powers.
5. As an HQ unit, he has to compete with the almighty flyrant (Hive Tyrant with wings). I really can't see any reason to take him over a 2nd flyrant.
6. He is expensive. For the price of the Deathleaper, you can get 2 lictors and change, which in my opinion would be more useful to the army.
The only time that I can see him in gameplay is if one wants to run the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood formation. Otherwise, I can't recommend him in any Tyranid army, especially at the expense of another flyrant. Actually, I take that back. I would recommend him in a game, but only if you really want to take it easy on the opponent.
Grades: D
Old One Eye: (by jy2)
Old One Eye is mainly a hammer HQ unit. He does help out his army somewhat with his Alpha Leader special rule, but mainly, he is just a blunt-force tool used to ram down the enemy's throat. Although I have not used him yet, I am finding it hard to fit him into my lists. First of all, how does he fit into a Tyranid army?
1. Hammer time! This guy is a pure close combat beast, with 5 S10 attacks base and 6 on the charge, plus an additional attack with his tail. Moreover, for every hit he makes (not including his tail), he gets an additional hit. He can potentially case 12 S10 hits on the charge!
2. Tank crusher. This guy will smash any tanks in his way. With a natural S10, D3 S10 Hammer of Wrath hits on the charge and crushing claws, he will turn any tank he encounters into scrap metal. If only his Initiative was higher, he'd be perfect against Imperial Knights. But as it is, it is better for him to receive the charge in cover from an Imperial Knight than for him to charge one instead. At least he will still get his D3 S10 Hammer of Wrath hits against a knight. So moral of the story? Do not charge a knight unless it only has 1-2 HP's remaining or out of sheer desperation.
3. Alpha Leader. This is the only force-multiplication power that Old One Eye provides for the army. It can help the Tyranid gribblies and lesser creatures, but it is no substitute for Synapse.
4. Tyrannocytes. One of his biggest weaknesses is his lack of mobility. You can now address this weakness by putting Old "Pod" Eye in a Tyrannocyte spore.
5. Cost. He's come down in price by 30-pts since the previous edition. Now, it doesn't hurt quite as much as it used to to give him a try in your army.
So with his devastating close combat prowess, is he worth taking in a Tyranid army? Before you do, you need to realize that he's got some serious drawbacks.
1. Very limited mobility. He is slow as gak. He doesn't even have the option to take Adrenal Glands. Now taking a Tyrannocyte spore can help to address this weakness. It would also take him to almost 300-pts, which then makes him exorbitant cost-wise!
2. No Synapse. While Alpha Leader is decent, it is still no substitute for Synapse. Testing on LD8 for Instinctive Behavior just cannot compare to not even having to test for Instinctive Behavior. Worst of all, OOE himself is vulnerable to this. There's nothing worse than if you have to clear an enemy unit on an objective, fail your Instinctive Behavior test and end up charging the wrong target just because it is closer. That is a game-loser there.
3. For a cc-brute, WS3 and no re-rolls to hit just cannot compare to some of the other, more specialized assault units in the game. Throw in low Initiative and OOE will be lucky if he can even survive an assault by an Imperial Knight out of cover. Any assault unit that can fight back before OOE gets to attack, or units buffed up with good defenses (i.e. 3++ storm shields, Invisibility, Fortune, Destroyer weaponry attacking first, etc.) will beat down OOE. Finally, lack of grenades or any type of Invulnerable save means that this unit who is supposed to be a close combat specialist just cannot compete with many of the other assault specialists in the game.
4. Resiliency. For someone who costs almost as much as 2 stock carnifexes, he is just slightly more resilient than 1 carnifex. Although he has Regeneration and can get FNP after taking the 1st Wound (that is, if you make him your Warlord), 4 Wounds on this beast just does not cut it. If forced to footslog against the enemy, there is just no way he will ever make it into combat if the enemy does not allow him to. Putting him in a tyrannocyte spore improves his chances of seeing action. Still, if the opponent opted to focus on him, he should be gone in 1 turn of concentrated firepower. If the opposition focuses on him, his regeneration wouldn't even come into play as he should be dead before the turn is over.
5. As an HQ unit, he has to compete with the almighty flyrant (Hive Tyrant with wings). It is really hard to justify taking him over a flyrant, unless one plays in a meta where you see lots of land raiders and other heavy armor. Still, his lack of resiliency makes it hard to take him even in such a case.
6. Cost. While he is cheaper now than he was before, as a pure CC beast, he still cannot compete against the likes of the dimachaeron. He isn't even as good as a unit of 2 stock carnifexes (though while a little more expensive, they are almost twice as survivable as OOE).
Old One Eye has some promise. GW made him an attractive assault option for the Tyranid army as well as a super tankbuster. However, design-wise, his limitations as an assault unit is just too great for me to ever recommend him for any Tyranid army. Actually, I take that back. I would recommend him in a game, but only if you really want to take it easy on the opponent.
Eldercaveman wrote: Does anyone have a Size comparison for the Mieotic spore and the Mucoloid?
I don't have exact measurements, but I'm pretty sure the mucolid is taller than the meiotic spore (i do own the meiotic spore models). Meiotic spores are about as tall as a zoanthrope. The mucolid is a little taller.
Eldercaveman wrote: Does anyone have a Size comparison for the Mieotic spore and the Mucoloid?
I don't have exact measurements, but I'm pretty sure the mucolid is taller than the meiotic spore (i do own the meiotic spore models). Meiotic spores are about as tall as a zoanthrope. The mucolid is a little taller.
Ah so about an inch in height, thats. not too bad. Better than not putting the Tentacles onto the Tyrannocyte as far as TLOS goes.
Yeah, I plan to use my meiotic spores as mucolids as well. Just raise the bases somewhat and then it'll probably be good. But first of all, I need to build my Mucolid to see how tall it actually is.
jy2 wrote: Yeah, I plan to use my meiotic spores as mucolids as well. Just raise the bases somewhat and then it'll probably be good. But first of all, I need to build my Mucolid to see how tall it actually is.
Rippers have the unique privilege of pulling off a complete "worst to first" comeback in the Tyranid troops department. Historically, they have paid as much per wound as a Termagant while filling a troop slot, without even being able to score. Now, however, 7th edition has made them the best scoring unit for Tyranids in our codex, by allowing them to score and also giving them the Objective Secured rule.
Rippers are most commonly run as a unit of three models, with the Deepstrike special rule purchased. This gives us 9 t3 wounds that score and can reach all over the battlefield thanks to the Deep Strike rule, at 5 points per wound. However, what makes Rippers much better than Gants is that they naturally come with the fearless rule, and move through difficult terrain at full speed thanks to the swarm rule. While Rippers take instinctive behavior tests just like gants, the failure result is much less severe, as the unit takes 3 strength 3 hits in the worst scenario, instead of falling back. Fun fact, it is actually impossible for Rippers to completely kill themselves, as some people fear, because, once the unit is down to a single model they no longer inflict wounds. By removing the need for Synapse units to babysit his troops, a Tyranid player can spend more points on heavy hitters than support units, and allows them to move their units more freely.
Rippers also have the innate advantage of their model, which is one of the shortest in the game. For a unit whose job is purely to take objectives, they want to stay out of sight, and actually can't be seen behind an Aegis Defense line or under most windows on Ruins. This makes the rippers easy to move around the battlefield thanks to their Deepstrike, and easy to hide thanks to low threat and low profile.
Rippers have several options that they can purchase, but I think that all of them are wasted points that distract from the true purpose of the unit.
Spinefists: For 4 points, 4 twinlinked shots at strength 3 aren't bad, but at BS 2 won't generate many hits and are too low strength to deal much damage. Plus, you never want these guys to be in line of sight of an enemy unit that is almost certain to out-shoot them.
Toxin Sacks: Again, 4 points per model gives poison attacks, but again I feel these are wasted. They are only truly helpful against high toughness units, but MCs will almost always cause Instant Death to the Rippers, and at initiative 2 they will rarely even swing before dying.
Adrenal Glands: 6 points per model gives fleet and furious charge, but these really shouldn't be charging anyone. Again, they will lose most combats they find, and although they could glance out vehicles, the points required are too steep.
Alternative roles: Although I would prefer to keep them out of sight and out of combat, your enemy will almost always mess with your plans and try to remove your troops. Rippers can hold their own in assault against weak units like combat squads, thanks to 4 attacks base and 3 wounds each. On the charge they can handle some light threats, but again this should be a last attempt of desperation, not a plan, as they are low Initiative and WS, and only have a 6+ save, making them fragile at best.
Worth mentioning again is that Swarms have Move Through cover and always move 6" in terrain, meaning they should always be in terrain, all the time, to give them a better save. Keep them cheap and small, and they can grab Objectives for you late and hide on them while your main force ties up the enemy.
Grade: A- (Deep Strike), B (vanilla), C+ (Spinefists)
Rippers have the unique privilege of pulling off a complete "worst to first" comeback in the Tyranid troops department. Historically, they have paid as much per wound as a Termagant while filling a troop slot, without even being able to score. Now, however, 7th edition has made them the best scoring unit for Tyranids in our codex, by allowing them to score and also giving them the Objective Secured rule.
Rippers are most commonly run as a unit of three models, with the Deepstrike special rule purchased. This gives us 9 t3 wounds that score and can reach all over the battlefield thanks to the Deep Strike rule, at 5 points per wound. However, what makes Rippers much better than Gants is that they naturally come with the fearless rule, and move through difficult terrain at full speed thanks to the swarm rule. While Rippers take instinctive behavior tests just like gants, the failure result is much less severe, as the unit takes 3 strength 3 hits in the worst scenario, instead of falling back. Fun fact, it is actually impossible for Rippers to completely kill themselves, as some people fear, because, once the unit is down to a single model they no longer inflict wounds. By removing the need for Synapse units to babysit his troops, a Tyranid player can spend more points on heavy hitters than support units, and allows them to move their units more freely.
Rippers also have the innate advantage of their model, which is one of the shortest in the game. For a unit whose job is purely to take objectives, they want to stay out of sight, and actually can't be seen behind an Aegis Defense line or under most windows on Ruins. This makes the rippers easy to move around the battlefield thanks to their Deepstrike, and easy to hide thanks to low threat and low profile.
Rippers have several options that they can purchase, but I think that all of them are wasted points that distract from the true purpose of the unit.
Spinefists: For 4 points, 4 twinlinked shots at strength 3 aren't bad, but at BS 2 won't generate many hits and are too low strength to deal much damage. Plus, you never want these guys to be in line of sight of an enemy unit that is almost certain to out-shoot them.
Toxin Sacks: Again, 4 points per model gives poison attacks, but again I feel these are wasted. They are only truly helpful against high toughness units, but MCs will almost always cause Instant Death to the Rippers, and at initiative 2 they will rarely even swing before dying.
Adrenal Glands: 6 points per model gives fleet and furious charge, but these really shouldn't be charging anyone. Again, they will lose most combats they find, and although they could glance out vehicles, the points required are too steep.
Alternative roles: Although I would prefer to keep them out of sight and out of combat, your enemy will almost always mess with your plans and try to remove your troops. Rippers can hold their own in assault against weak units like combat squads, thanks to 4 attacks base and 3 wounds each. On the charge they can handle some light threats, but again this should be a last attempt of desperation, not a plan, as they are low Initiative and WS, and only have a 6+ save, making them fragile at best.
Worth mentioning again is that Swarms have Move Through cover and always move 6" in terrain, meaning they should always be in terrain, all the time, to give them a better save. Keep them cheap and small, and they can grab Objectives for you late and hide on them while your main force ties up the enemy.
Grade: A- (Deep Strike), B (vanilla), C+ (Spinefists)
Great review. Thanks jifel!
One thing to note is this. If you take the Forgeworld models, they are even harder to hide than standard termagants/hormagants.
Rippers have the unique privilege of pulling off a complete "worst to first" comeback in the Tyranid troops department. Historically, they have paid as much per wound as a Termagant while filling a troop slot, without even being able to score. Now, however, 7th edition has made them the best scoring unit for Tyranids in our codex, by allowing them to score and also giving them the Objective Secured rule.
Rippers are most commonly run as a unit of three models, with the Deepstrike special rule purchased. This gives us 9 t3 wounds that score and can reach all over the battlefield thanks to the Deep Strike rule, at 5 points per wound. However, what makes Rippers much better than Gants is that they naturally come with the fearless rule, and move through difficult terrain at full speed thanks to the swarm rule. While Rippers take instinctive behavior tests just like gants, the failure result is much less severe, as the unit takes 3 strength 3 hits in the worst scenario, instead of falling back. Fun fact, it is actually impossible for Rippers to completely kill themselves, as some people fear, because, once the unit is down to a single model they no longer inflict wounds. By removing the need for Synapse units to babysit his troops, a Tyranid player can spend more points on heavy hitters than support units, and allows them to move their units more freely.
Rippers also have the innate advantage of their model, which is one of the shortest in the game. For a unit whose job is purely to take objectives, they want to stay out of sight, and actually can't be seen behind an Aegis Defense line or under most windows on Ruins. This makes the rippers easy to move around the battlefield thanks to their Deepstrike, and easy to hide thanks to low threat and low profile.
Rippers have several options that they can purchase, but I think that all of them are wasted points that distract from the true purpose of the unit.
Spinefists: For 4 points, 4 twinlinked shots at strength 3 aren't bad, but at BS 2 won't generate many hits and are too low strength to deal much damage. Plus, you never want these guys to be in line of sight of an enemy unit that is almost certain to out-shoot them.
Toxin Sacks: Again, 4 points per model gives poison attacks, but again I feel these are wasted. They are only truly helpful against high toughness units, but MCs will almost always cause Instant Death to the Rippers, and at initiative 2 they will rarely even swing before dying.
Adrenal Glands: 6 points per model gives fleet and furious charge, but these really shouldn't be charging anyone. Again, they will lose most combats they find, and although they could glance out vehicles, the points required are too steep.
Alternative roles: Although I would prefer to keep them out of sight and out of combat, your enemy will almost always mess with your plans and try to remove your troops. Rippers can hold their own in assault against weak units like combat squads, thanks to 4 attacks base and 3 wounds each. On the charge they can handle some light threats, but again this should be a last attempt of desperation, not a plan, as they are low Initiative and WS, and only have a 6+ save, making them fragile at best.
Worth mentioning again is that Swarms have Move Through cover and always move 6" in terrain, meaning they should always be in terrain, all the time, to give them a better save. Keep them cheap and small, and they can grab Objectives for you late and hide on them while your main force ties up the enemy.
Grade: A- (Deep Strike), B (vanilla), C+ (Spinefists)
Great review. Thanks jifel!
One thing to note is this. If you take the Forgeworld models, they are even harder to hide than standard termagants/hormagants.
Very true. For that reason, I would recommend using the standard Ripper swarms that come in the box with Termagants. Cheaper and easier to hide!
It would be quite nice but that isn't a legal allied detachment. You have to have Fateweaver or a LoC to unlock Tzeentch DPs in the Heavy slot. You could just run a Daemons CAD and the new 'Nids formation if that's going to be allowed as a second source.
It would be quite nice but that isn't a legal allied detachment. You have to have Fateweaver or a LoC to unlock Tzeentch DPs in the Heavy slot. You could just run a Daemons CAD and the new 'Nids formation if that's going to be allowed as a second source.
Looks like Leviathan and allies So a little rearranging of the demons should do it
It would be quite nice but that isn't a legal allied detachment. You have to have Fateweaver or a LoC to unlock Tzeentch DPs in the Heavy slot. You could just run a Daemons CAD and the new 'Nids formation if that's going to be allowed as a second source.
NamelessBard wrote: Didn't they FAQ out the bit that an allied detachment couldn't do 4 Hearlds in one slot? Just move the Prince to HQ.
Well, my revised list is Daemons primary, with a Tyranid detachment, so it shouldn't be a prob.
I gave a list very similar to this a hard look before leviathan dropped (minus the third Flyrant and using Be'lakor) but I just can't do Daemons primary. With all that is in me I despise the warp storm table. Not even because it's good or bad - it's totally random - but I hate the extra rolls.
I've also had games where both my warlord hive tyrant AND my opponent's warlord HQ were removed from play via the warp storm. After games like that, you look at your opponent and he looks at you and you know who won. It wasn't either of you - it was the warp storm
NamelessBard wrote: Didn't they FAQ out the bit that an allied detachment couldn't do 4 Hearlds in one slot? Just move the Prince to HQ.
Well, my revised list is Daemons primary, with a Tyranid detachment, so it shouldn't be a prob.
I gave a list very similar to this a hard look before leviathan dropped (minus the third Flyrant and using Be'lakor) but I just can't do Daemons primary. With all that is in me I despise the warp storm table. Not even because it's good or bad - it's totally random - but I hate the extra rolls.
I've also had games where both my warlord hive tyrant AND my opponent's warlord HQ were removed from play via the warp storm. After games like that, you look at your opponent and he looks at you and you know who won. It wasn't either of you - it was the warp storm
Honestly, as a Daemon player, I am quite used to the randomness already. It's a stark contrast to my more dependable Tyranids and Necrons, which actually makes it a breath of fresh air. With bugs and crons, I know exactly what to expect. With Daemons, I need to plan more for contingencies in case something different happens from what I expected. It actually makes it a more exciting, though oftentimes nerve-wracking as well, playing experience.
Though if I wanted to run Daemons as allies, then I'll probably drop the screamerstar and go Lord of Change, 2x11 pink horrors and Tzeentch DP and now I don't have to worry about the Warp Storm.
In more Tyranid-related news, coming up tomorrow, reviews on Hive Guards and the Hive Crones. And later down the line, I will finish up on the Tyranid Lords of War - the Harridan and the Hierophant Bio-titan.
The following are still available for review if anyone wants to volunteer:
Our weekly casual league is tonight, here's the list i'm going with for a laugh:
CAD
HQ - OOE (In a Tyrannocyte)
TP - Mucolid x1
TP - Mucolid x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
HV - Dakkafex x2
HV- Carnifex w ScyTals & AG x3
HV- Carnifex w CClaws & AG x2
Total - 1500 points
8 carnifexes and 2 malanthropes. Just because i have the models and i figured, why not. haha.
L0rdF1end wrote: Wow JY, that's a mean list. Not sure you need the Fighter Ace's to be honest, 5 Flyrants alone will wreck face.
As you are taking so many Lictors can you not squeeze in a Mawloc or 2?
Fighter Ace is more for testing purposes. Just trying them out. Not sure how many are optimal for now. They're probably not necessary, but still, I want to see how they can help out the army at all.
If I drop the fighter aces and a lictor, then I can fit in 1 mawloc. To fit in 2, I might have to drop the bastion and more lictors. In any case, it won't really matter. This won't be my actual Tyranid army. For my actual army, I will most likely max out on 4 flyrants only. The 5-flyrant list is more for testing purposes.
tetrisphreak wrote: Our weekly casual league is tonight, here's the list i'm going with for a laugh:
CAD
HQ - OOE (In a Tyrannocyte)
TP - Mucolid x1
TP - Mucolid x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
HV - Dakkafex x2
HV- Carnifex w ScyTals & AG x3
HV- Carnifex w CClaws & AG x2
Total - 1500 points
8 carnifexes and 2 malanthropes. Just because i have the models and i figured, why not. haha.
Looks like a lot of fun. Either your opponent will be able to deal with it or they won't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sinful Hero wrote: So how has Dima and other melee monsters in Tyrannocytes been working? Has anyone had a chance to get some testing in?
I used him in a spore once, but in all fairness, my game wasn't an accurate gauge of his capabilities. That was because he went up against a Greater Unclean One with Warp Speed (Init 7) and the balesword (Instant-death).
My opponent, Grant Theft Auto (aka GTA), will be running something like this:
Farseer - Jetbike, Mantle
Spiritseer
3x Wave Serpents - Holofields, Ghostwalk, Scatters
3x5 Dire Avengers inside
Wraithknight
Lynx
Skyshield
Court of Archon in Venom - Splinters
Warriors in Venom - Splinters
Venom - Splinters
I don't know if his list is finalized yet, but mine is. I'll let you guys know how I do.
I'm actually not sure if you can do more than one fighter ace. If you look at the rules, it says that in normal games of 40k it follows all of the rules presented for city fight, one of which is that you can only have one fighter ace. Maybe I'm mis-reading it though
Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions: If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....
@Luke1705,
Can you quote me the rules where it says that only 1 Fighter Ace? Do all of the Death from the Skies missions only allow you to take 1 Fighter Ace? I'm only going off of the pics taken of the expansion here in this thread (p. 242-243).
Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions: If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....
@Luke1705,
Can you quote me the rules where it says that only 1 Fighter Ace? Do all of the Death from the Skies missions only allow you to take 1 Fighter Ace? I'm only going off of the pics taken of the expansion here in this thread (p. 242-243).
Yeah, I opened the book and that's all there is to it. Just pay 35pts/model and roll on the table.
Using Fighter Aces in Other Missions: If you wish, you can upgrade any model to a Fighter Ace in missions that do not have the Fighter Ace special rule. Using a Fighter Ace in such a mission follows exactly the same rules as for a mission that has the Fighter Ace special rule, except that the upgrade increases the points cost of the upgraded model by....
@Luke1705,
Can you quote me the rules where it says that only 1 Fighter Ace? Do all of the Death from the Skies missions only allow you to take 1 Fighter Ace? I'm only going off of the pics taken of the expansion here in this thread (p. 242-243).
Look in the first paragraph. It says that you can only have one, then the following paragraph goes on to say that all of the rules from the first paragraph are still valid, except that it costs points to upgrade
Automatically Appended Next Post: I swear for the life of me I can't get the picture to orient correctly
If you can find it, you might include the third paragraph in your post about campaigns. It mentions any model with over five kills is a fighter ace more or less, suggesting multiple aces. I've already left the house, and can't quote it for you.
Sinful Hero wrote: If you can find it, you might include the third paragraph in your post about campaigns. It mentions any model with over five kills is a fighter ace more or less, suggesting multiple aces. I've already left the house, and can't quote it for you.
Ok, I will include it over at that YMDC thread.
zerosignal wrote: Can you take that many fighter aces? I was under the impression you could only have one?
That's the point that we are debating currently. Follow the link above to join in the discussion.
Sinful Hero wrote: So how has Dima and other melee monsters in Tyrannocytes been working? Has anyone had a chance to get some testing in?
I've brought a Dima in a Tyrannocyte Twice, but one game turned out to be against bikers, so I deployed him on the table for a turn 2 charge. The other time he didn't come in until 4, but it was a blow out in my favor so he just killed 2 DE warriors, and scored an objective.
The Hive Guard are the Tyranid anti-tank specialists. They are ideal against light to medium armor (AV10-12). Against heavier armor (AV13-14), you can give them the option to take Haywire weaponry. They used to be our most reliable AT option in the previous edition, but currently, they are respectable but not great. So why should you take Hive Guards in your army?
1. 2 S8 shots per hive guard with up to 6 shots per unit of 3. That is respectable firepower.
2. Hive guard do not need LOS to the target to shoot. If there is LOS-blocking terrain and in good field position, then you can fire them relatively safely with little fear for retaliation. This helps to increase their efficiency. The more they can fire, the more they are likely to make back their points in kills.
3. They are the only non-template weapon in the Tyranid arsenal that can ignore cover. This makes them ideal against annoying, jinking skimmers like wave serpents and the like. It also lets them kill off annoying units in cover as well.
4. They are durable. T6 with 2W makes for a decent platform that minimizes the damage against most small-arms fire. Keep them in ruins with a malan/venomthrope nearby and now they have a very resilient 2+ cover save. Better yet, hide them behind LOS-blocking terrain and now, they don't have to worry about most enemy firepower.
5. An improvement to the hive guard is that now, they can more reliably deal with heavy armor. Before, hive guards could not reliably deal with AV13-14 tanks. Now, they have the option to upgrade their guns to fire haywire shots. So as long as they can get close enough, then they can be a threat to these types of tanks.
They are more reliable than most Tyranid units for AT. However, what keeps them from being an all-star Tyranid unit like they once were in last edition?
1. A drop from BS4 previously to BS3 currently. In addition, their cost has gone up. Currently, you are paying more for a unit that shoots worse than before. That there is the very definition of a nerf.
2. A problem that they had before and still have today is their rather limited range. 24" just isn't good enough as most tanks can just stay out of their range and keep firing. So in order to target these tanks, the hive guard has to expose itself to enemy fire by moving towards the enemy.
3. The Shockcannon is not without its disadvantages. While it lets you deal with heavy armor, its notoriously short range (only 18") means that you have to expose your hive guards to the danger of assault (not to mention enemy shooting). It also does not ignore cover so enemy units have a chance to ignore its damage if there is cover nearby. It performs worse against light armor and lastly, it can do nothing against flyers.
4. Improved AT elsewhere. Electroshock grubs, exocrines, tyrannofexes, Tyranid Lord of Wars, dakkafexes, cheaper crushing claws, Warp Blast being available to any psychic Tyranid unit and an increase in the number of flyrants one can take in an army means that there are plenty of AT army-wide for Tyranids. Now there is much more competition for the Hive Guard in the AT department. More importantly, many of those AT options are less specialist units and better all-around TAC units than the hive guard. In other words, Tyranid AT has improved overall and now they are less reliant on a specialist unit like the hive guard than they used to be.
4 respectably nasty FMCs, 2 MCs deepstriking and 14 WC. Not much else though. I like the Nurgle DPs since they do what the flyrants don't handle so well, notably wreck other big MCs. I'm thinking the Nurgle Princes should feel suitably comfortable landing on turn 2 and assaulting on turn 3 as long as either the Dakkafex show up in the opponent's backfield.
tetrisphreak wrote: Our weekly casual league is tonight, here's the list i'm going with for a laugh:
CAD
HQ - OOE (In a Tyrannocyte)
TP - Mucolid x1
TP - Mucolid x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
HV - Dakkafex x2
HV- Carnifex w ScyTals & AG x3
HV- Carnifex w CClaws & AG x2
Total - 1500 points
8 carnifexes and 2 malanthropes. Just because i have the models and i figured, why not. haha.
That is mean. OOE is going to be awreckingball in that list. Dakkafex hold midfeild covering the Mals, Crushers and and stock fex charge in head long, with OOE coming in round 3 as a finishing blow.
Side note: Current rumors are that the new Broodlord character will provide Stealth and Preferred enemy to his squad... What do you guys think that will do for Genestealers? I see it being potentially very very useful, I'm probably even going to play test a big 20 unit with the Spawn!
Tyranids as an allied detachment is pretty nice since you only have to spend 15 points on the troop slot.
The tournaments I go to are pretty much one CAD plus Ally/Formation.
I do quite like the idea of Fateweaver (now buffed to roll on maelific), summoning screamer star with air defence and drop pods coming from Tyranids in support.
jifel wrote: Side note: Current rumors are that the new Broodlord character will provide Stealth and Preferred enemy to his squad... What do you guys think that will do for Genestealers? I see it being potentially very very useful, I'm probably even going to play test a big 20 unit with the Spawn!
Wouldn't be surprised if the only way to take the Spawn of Cryptus is through the Children of Cryptus unit - the 8 genestealers and the special broodlord included in the box set.
)
Plus isn't there a goofy Infiltrate, Spore fortress that adds 6" to Synapse...
)
As you know I am a big fan of screening units, and a bubble wrap can (in my experience) often function as a force multiplier. 
But in a smaller sized game it is a Troop deleting monster. 
