jifel wrote: Side note: Current rumors are that the new Broodlord character will provide Stealth and Preferred enemy to his squad... What do you guys think that will do for Genestealers? I see it being potentially very very useful, I'm probably even going to play test a big 20 unit with the Spawn!
Wouldn't be surprised if the only way to take the Spawn of Cryptus is through the Children of Cryptus unit - the 8 genestealers and the special broodlord included in the box set.
I'm hoping that the Genestealers may be upgraded/buy more models like notmal Stealers, but we'll know for sure soon.
The Harpy is a curious creature. While at first glance appearing to be a gunship with a panoply of guns and the Hunt Instinctive Behavior, as a shooting platform the Harpy will generally come up short compared to a duel devourer-equipped Tyrant due to its blast based weaponry. However, if one looks deeper one will find the following.
- Sonic Screech: On the turn in which the Harpy charges, all enemy units in the combat have their suffer a -5 penalty to their initiative (to a minimum of 1) until the end of that assault phase.
This is the key ability of the Harpy and is the primary reason to consider bringing one outside of formations that require their inclusion. Sonic Screech serves as a major force multiplier for Tyranid melee capabilities. The ability to force enemies to swing after your own units (or at worst simultaneously) has a huge impact on both the survivability and damage potential of said units and can be the difference between successfully crippling (if not destroying) the enemy and being wiped out.
Outside of its sonic screech ability, the Harpy is a fairly unremarkable monstrous creature with a below-average (for a monstrous creature) S5, T5, and 4+ armor save, along with the standard WS/BS 3 and an unusually high initiative of 5. While its firepower isn't as potent as that of a Hive Tyrant, the Harpy does offer board-wide coverage thanks to the range of the bio-cannons and can play more cautiously as needed thanks to this. In terms of vulnerabilities, the Harpy shares most of the same weaknesses as other Tyranid monstrous creatures, with the added concern of Ap4 weapons (particularly Autocannons and Krak Grenades) and S10 weaponry that can double it out. In addition, the Harpy is virtually defenseless against enemy aircraft due to its weaponry being mostly blasts (and the few attacks that it can use against aircraft are both S5), unlike the other two Tyranid flying monsters.
Biomorphs:
- Scything Talons (stock): Currently does nothing for the Harpy, since it has no other melee weapons to pair them with and the AP6 from the talons is overruled by the Smash rule. Moving on…
- Spore Cysts (stock): This unusual weapon allows the Harpy to do what amounts to a bombing run during the movement phase with more or less the same weapon as a Biovore. Due to the wording of the rules for firing, the shot has no restrictions on using the Harpy’s Ballistic Skill to reduce its D6’’ scatter, giving the Spore Cysts near perfect accuracy against anything short of a heavily depleted squad (being a barrage weapon, this makes it is quite good for picking out special weapons and the like).
- Twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon (stock): The default weapon carried by the Harpy, good for thinning out hoard-type units and general anti-infantry firepower. As a pinning weapon, it can also be used to try to pin squads in preparation for assault, with the usual caveats over the reliability of pinning. A good weapon if the only thing needed from the Harpy is it be present (due to a formation) or if it is intended to act purely as a melee support (meaning it will be jinking most of the time for survivability, making its guns irrelevant).
- Twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon: The Heavy Venom Cannon exchanges blast size for the ability to pierce 4+ armor and the strength needed for vehicle hunting. While not a particularly good anti-tank weapon due to the low rate of fire and poor AP, the HVC does offer the ability to pop Quantum Shielding at range for devourer-equipped units to finish off and it does have decent accuracy and range. Better in a meta with a higher quantity of xenos armies, less effective against Imperial ones.
- Stinger Salvo: Upgrades the Harpy with a non-blast weapon, allowing it to shoot at other fliers and fire overwatch. Bit expensive though for what it does and the low strength limits the amount of damage that can be done.
- Cluster Spines: Upgrades the Harpy with another large blast weapon, allowing it to throw out two a turn without having to use its Spore Cysts. Again though, bit expensive for what it does (makes the Harpy only 5 points cheaper than a Hive Crone) and irrelevant if the Harpy is being used in a support role.
- Acid Blood: Synergizes quite well with the Sonic Screech rule, but is generally not worth it since it is horribly unreliable in any rounds of combat beyond the first and does nothing if the Harpy is being used as a gunship.
- Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive and undercuts the main advantage of the Harpy being cheap.
- Toxin Sacs: Generally better put on whatever the Harpy will be supporting with its sonic screech rather than the Harpy itself, since its low quantity of attacks coupled with low strength limit the benefit of poisoned attacks.
- Adrenal Glands: Again, generally better put on the real combat units that the Harpy is supporting rather than the Harpy itself. Being able to move as a jump monstrous creature, the Harpy can save its jump move to act as pseudo-Fleet if necessary.
Grade: B (as a force multiplier) | C (as a gunship)
Hive Crone:
Unlike its cousin, the Hive Crone is strictly designed as an offense unit. While the Hive Crone sports an impressive arsenal that covers most unit types as viable targets, it is primarily an anti-air and anti-infantry specialist thanks the nerfs to the Vector Strike rule against ground targets in 7th edition.
In competitive play, the Hive Crone’s main function is that of a toolbox unit. Due to its diverse selection of weaponry combined with mobility, the Hive Crone can be used to fill gaps that emerge in a player’s offensive arsenal turn by turn - ranging from rooting entrenched troops out of cover with its templates strike to anti-heavy armor with Tentaclids and Vector Strike. It also serves excellently as an interceptor, being able to enter ongoing reserves in order to ambush enemy fliers arriving from reserves without sacrificing synapse coverage.
The Crone shares most of the weaknesses of the Harpy, but with the added concern of its Instinctive Behavior disabling its guns if it should fail (Ld 10 makes this fairly unlikely, but still something to keep in mind). With the onset of 7th, the Crone lost much of its ability against light ground vehicles, since it lacks the quantity of attacks needed to wipe out such a target on its own in one pass. Likewise, it also lost much of its capability against heavy infantry (and to a lesser extent ground-based monstrous creatures).
Unique Special Rules:
- Raking Strike: Upgrades the Hive Crone’s Vector Strike to S8 rather than the base S5 of the creature, making it far more dangerous against other monstrous creatures, able to hurt vehicles up to AV13, and adding the ability to double out T4 models. Simple, but effective.
Biomorphs:
- Scything Talons (stock): Like the Harpy, the Hive Crone has no other melee weapons to pair them with and the AP6 from the talons is overruled by the Smash rule.
- Drool Cannon (stock): Effectively a short-barreled version of the Tyrannofex’s Acid Spray, virtually identical apart from the lack of the Torrent rule. With the Crone being prone to vector striking things, the lack of Torrent isn't too big of an issue as it will generally be in range of something anyway.
- Tentaclids (4x stock): One-shot S5 Ap5 Haywire missiles that can reroll failed to hit rolls against aircraft. Due to the Crone’s mediocre ballistic skill, these are generally best reserved for finishing off enemy aircraft between vector strike attack runs. If no aircraft are available, they can be used to help soften up AV13+ vehicles, though again their accuracy is greatly reduced.
- Stinger Salvo: A bit more palatable on the Hive Crone, worth considering as a back-up gun for once it has used all of its Tentaclids. Not a must have, but an okay place to spend the last couple points in a list.
- Cluster Spines: Similar to the above, but limited to strictly anti-infantry due to its nature as a blast. Since the Crone already has its excellent template weapon, the Salvo is probably a bit more ideal for it (not to mention it is cheaper).
- Acid Blood: Seeing as the Crone has no reason to ever leave Swooping-mode…
-Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive for what it does and once the Crone has expended its Tentaclids it looses most of its perceived threat value.
- Toxin Sacs: See Acid Blood. If the Crone is in combat, either something went terribly wrong or you are winning anyway.
Lets hear some anecdotes of Sonic Screech actually working in game. The only time I've had it help me out was when a harpy got grounded next to an imperial Knight, and It chraged in with some carnifexes. The Imperial Knight Killed both Carnifexes but on the 3rd round of combat the Harpy took it out then died in the explosion. That is the only time I've ever seen it have an actual effect, and I've run Harpies alot.
Strat_N8 wrote: -Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive for what it does and once the Crone has expended its Tentaclids it looses most of its perceived threat value.
Same question, has anybody ever actually taken regen on a Harpy or Crone and Regened a wound. I've never taken it because it doesn't really make sense to. Regen gets you back one wound if you are lucky, and the cost per wound of a Harpy is 27 points, so regen is a bad bargain. Crone is 31 so makes a tiny bit more sense. Also hapries and crones can't wound themselves via perils, nor are they likely to be targetted by the opponent alpha strike.
Strat_N8 wrote: Unlike its cousin, the Hive Crone is strictly designed as an offense unit. While the Hive Crone sports an impressive arsenal that covers most unit types as viable targets, it is primarily an anti-air specialist thanks the nerfs to the Vector Strike rule against ground targets in 7th edition coupled with its missiles’ inaccuracy against ground targets.
My Crones almost never do any anti-air. They vector strike a vehicle or elite infantry, and then lay a flamer down on infantry in cover. The flamer does the lion-share of the damage. With the Crone's mobility you can often maneuver to get multiple units with the flamer. Also 19 out 20 Tentaclids get shot at ground targets. I'm usually taking out flyer with flyrants or vector strike, and the Flame template is more important than a single glance to a flyrant, and so I generally forgo tentaclids in the late game when fliers are on the board.
Old One Eye is mainly a hammer HQ unit. He does help out his army somewhat with his Alpha Leader special rule, but mainly, he is just a blunt-force tool used to ram down the enemy's throat. Although I have not used him yet, I am finding it hard to fit him into my lists. First of all, how does he fit into a Tyranid army?
I have used Old One Eye quite alot, and I agree with your summation. Alpha Leader isn't near as useful as you imply. It is such a marginal effect, but your final grades are right on. There have been games with Old One Eye where he wasn't able to make it into combat until turn 5.
The only success I've had with him is vs Drop Pods. They usually don't want to alpha strike him, because he is usually one of the least threatening things in your army, but if they drop a group of marines close enough, he can charge in and wipe them out, and then prance around the backfield eating drop pods while the rest of your army takes care of business.
tetrisphreak wrote: Our weekly casual league is tonight, here's the list i'm going with for a laugh:
CAD
HQ - OOE (In a Tyrannocyte)
TP - Mucolid x1
TP - Mucolid x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
HV - Dakkafex x2
HV- Carnifex w ScyTals & AG x3
HV- Carnifex w CClaws & AG x2
Total - 1500 points
8 carnifexes and 2 malanthropes. Just because i have the models and i figured, why not. haha.
That is mean. OOE is going to be awreckingball in that list. Dakkafex hold midfeild covering the Mals, Crushers and and stock fex charge in head long, with OOE coming in round 3 as a finishing blow.
So I faced a mechanized Astra militarum list. He had a tank commander in a battle tank and a vanquisher bodyguard, 3 chimeras with vets, a solo Russ battle tank, a wyvern, and 3 basilisks. The game started in my favor with vanguard strike and I won 1st turn along with night fight.
Turn 3 my fexes reached his line of tanks and obliterated his HQ unit easily. I had destroyed a chimera with devourers the turn before and hadn't yet lost any fexes due to shrouded and ruins saves. He was demoralized seeing 7 carnifexes in his DZ with 1 more on the way via pod. (OOE Failed all his reserve rolls). At the end of turn 3 he flat conceded. Crushing victory to hive fleet Tigris!
tag8833 wrote: Lets hear some anecdotes of Sonic Screech actually working in game. The only time I've had it help me out was when a harpy got grounded next to an imperial Knight, and It chraged in with some carnifexes. The Imperial Knight Killed both Carnifexes but on the 3rd round of combat the Harpy took it out then died in the explosion. That is the only time I've ever seen it have an actual effect, and I've run Harpies alot.
I've had a couple events like the above, though without the Harpy having been grounded (it generally stays on the ground amongst the spore clouds unless against a gunline or else drops down on its own a turn in advance). A Harpy + two stock Carnifexes has generally been my go-to solution for Knights to this point as they are cheap enough to be expendable and have generally wrecked said Knights on the charge (I think the math was ~5 HPs on the charge on average). Today I also had a non-competitive game with my brothers where it saved my Tyrant from getting mauled. They had a Chapter Master and Dreadnaught pinned down by a handful of Hormagaunts. Since I had a maelstrom objective for killing the enemy warlord and taking out a vehicle, I sent my Hive Tyrant with its wounded Tyrant Guard in along with the Harpy. The sonic screech allowed the Tyrant Guard to get its swings in against the Dreadnaught before dying (it wrecked said Dreadnaught thanks to Crushing Claws) and allowed the Tyrant to get his swings in at the same time as the Chapter Master (having gone through cover - was a bit of insurance that it would at least get a chance to do damage). The Tyrant itself did two wounds to the Chapter Master and suffered two in return, then killed the Chapter Master in the next round as the remaining gaunts, Harpy, and Warriors were able to lend their attacks to the fight. We played the fight without the Harpy as a matter of curiosity and without it the Dreadnaught would have simply squashed the guard before it could swing and then proceeded to keep everything tied up and unable to help the Tyrant.
.
tag8833 wrote: Same question, has anybody ever actually taken regen on a Harpy or Crone and Regened a wound. I've never taken it because it doesn't really make sense to. Regen gets you back one wound if you are lucky, and the cost per wound of a Harpy is 27 points, so regen is a bad bargain. Crone is 31 so makes a tiny bit more sense. Also hapries and crones can't wound themselves via perils, nor are they likely to be targetted by the opponent alpha strike.
I generally don't take Regen as a matter of "bodies over bullets", but I remembered a couple people in here were discussing it being viable on them so left that note in.
My Crones almost never do any anti-air. They vector strike a vehicle or elite infantry, and then lay a flamer down on infantry in cover. The flamer does the lion-share of the damage. With the Crone's mobility you can often maneuver to get multiple units with the flamer. Also 19 out 20 Tentaclids get shot at ground targets. I'm usually taking out flyer with flyrants or vector strike, and the Flame template is more important than a single glance to a flyrant, and so I generally forgo tentaclids in the late game when fliers are on the board.
Sorry guys, but I'm going to put my reviews on hold for now. Instead, I've got 2 battle reports to share with the Hive Mind.
The 2nd game, I haven't played yet. It's my 5 flyrant list versus a tournament Eldar list run by GTA. That game is coming up later this week.
The 1st game, I just finished today and let me say that it was an eye-widening experience. Got in a 1850 LVO practice match against my Daemon friend, Chris. I was just testing stuff out, mainly the Skytyrant formation with a souped-up melee tyrant as well as the Fighter Ace upgrade. My list:
This is actually a rematch between my opponent, Chris, and I. We played 2 times already. The 1st game was an introduction for him to my dimachaeron. He had no idea what it could do and my dima proceeded to rampage through his army, killing over 1000-pts of daemons!
The 2nd game, he was very well prepared for my dimachaeron. He was also improving greatly, both with his list as well as his tactics. That was a tough game, as he summoned 850-pts of daemons in our game with only 2 summoning psykers:
This game, he brought out his 3rd generation list and probably his nastiest Summoning list so far:
Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
3x Nurglings
3x Nurglings
Daemon Prince - Nurgle, Lvl 3, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
Daemon Prince - Nurgle, Lvl 3, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
Daemon Allies:
Keeper of Secret - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
3x Nurglings
Daemon Prince - Slaanesh, Lvl 2, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
All 4 of his Nurgle MC's had baleswords. All 4 also had Warp Speed! Ouch! Both GUO's also had Iron Arm. Slaanesh MC's were pure summoning daemons and all 3 DP's could Summon. Thus, he had 4 summoning units.
I knew I was going to be in for a tough fight, but then, my worst fear came true on Turn 1. My Warlord flyrant, the 275-pt guy with Fighter Ace, periled while casting his psychic power. I then roll a ! Ok, need to make my LD10, no prob. I then roll , ! But wait....one of the 6's was cocked. So I re-rolled it and get a again! With that, my flyrant goes down on Turn 1, giving away both First Blood and Warlord!
Battle report will be coming tomorrow. Stay tuned....
This game, he brought out his 3rd generation list and probably his nastiest Summoning list so far:
Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
3x Nurglings 3x Nurglings
Daemon Prince - Nurgle, Lvl 3, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts Daemon Prince - Nurgle, Lvl 3, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
Daemon Allies:
Keeper of Secret - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
3x Nurglings
Daemon Prince - Slaanesh, Lvl 2, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
All 4 of his Nurgle MC's had baleswords. All 4 also had Warp Speed! Ouch! Both GUO's also had Iron Arm. Slaanesh MC's were pure summoning daemons and all 3 DP's could Summon. Thus, he had 4 summoning units.
I knew I was going to be in for a tough fight, but then, my worst fear came true on Turn 1. My Warlord flyrant, the 275-pt guy with Fighter Ace, periled while casting his psychic power. I then roll a ! Ok, need to make my LD10, no prob. I then roll , ! But wait....one of the 6's was cocked. So I re-rolled it and get a again! With that, my flyrant goes down on Turn 1, giving away both First Blood and Warlord!
Battle report will be coming tomorrow. Stay tuned...
That is quite the interesting Daemons list. I have to give him props, you don't see many (or any) people running 2 GUOs, and even less giving a top tier list trouble. I will be thoroughly interested in tactics on both sides of the table for this one. For all the times "cinematic" meant nothing in GW doublespeak, I think you two actually did something with it. . so many MCs!!
Had a 6k game yesterday at Dropzone games, my forces vs a chaos detachment and Grey Knights as well. Turn three about 2k of Ravenwing bikes showed up.
Tyranids dominated throughout, they had almost no anti air and I had venomthropes and malanthrope working overtime. Although we called it at turn 3 because we are old and sleepy, it was a lot of fun. My Warrior deathstar fought a massive blob of Raptors and won, my Heirophant Bio torrented a massive group of bikes and then assaulted, killing about 900pts work of bikes in one turn.
My two Carnifexes both epically charged and tackled down a Dreadknight. Bugs actually lost very little in forces, maybe 1000pts worth despite being severely overmatched points wise.
Some pics from their page. Ill post some of mine if they turn out good.
1) I will use 2 Harpy/Hive Crone boxes and 1 Trygon box.
2) I will use the 2 harpy bodies (1 will have tail cut off) back to back for a longer body.
3) Trygon Torso for the "Neck" and Head (he trygon without the tail part, I will also Use that tail + some other bits and make a cool Deamon Prince later, I have a CSM army that I want a Deamon alies for)
4) I will cut 1 set of wings a bit and shape the other set, to make 2 Large wigns
http://i.imgur.com/mNZJXni.png < Pic of paint (Im not good with Paint) The GREEN in the Pic will be Green stuff (I'd imagine I will need it there).
Each wing will be 4x8 ", The Tail to Head will be 12" (1 foot), Full model with Wings will be about 13x14"
Nice batrep Wilson. Confirmed for me what I've already been thinking about Flyrants - it is so dangerous to cast heavy duty psychic powers while flying. One perils, a grounding check later and you've lost half of your wounds probably (although one time I did cast Catalyst, then pass FNP so I never perilsed in the first place haha).
On an odd note that may have a place in YMDC, when exactly does your opponent declare if he is jinking or not? Warp lance may have some extra utility there if he has to declare before you declare how many dice you're throwing at the attempt to manifest. If he jinks, you throw 2 or even just 1 die. If not, you can then proceed to try harder.
Finally, my random "I can't believe this adds up to 1850/Leviathan may actually be broken" list of the day:
Flyrant w/Devs & EGrubs
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Flyrant w/Devs & EGrubs
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion w/Comms
The lack of synapse is offset somewhat by leviathan's re-roll benefit, and I do like the 1:1 Lictor:Mawloc ratio haha...
I tried out Skytyrant formation today against Tau.
Skytyrant was built like this:
Tyrant (Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.Grubs)
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
My opponent wasn't really up to facing my list, and so I moved the formation out into the open rather than into a nice set of ruins on turn 2, and his entire army shot into it. I lost 16 gargoyles. On my turn 2, I tried to charge Farsight + 4 gun Drones + 3 Suites. After tau overwatch I lost all 4 remaining gargoyles, and took 3 wounds on the flyrant, and then failed a 7" charge.
Still, it occupied my opponents entire army for 2 turns, and my 8 raveners ran amok. Killed a riptide turn 2. Killed Fire Warriors turn 3. Killed more fire warriors turn 4. Killed a Devil Fish turn 5. My Exocrine + Dakkafex killed the suites once the formation failed, and my dakkaflyrant was able to safely kill lots and lots of suites thanks to the Skytyrant drawing all of the fire for 2 turns, and the Raveners dealing with all of the anti-air.
I also had 10 Hormagants that killed 6 pathfinders and then 12 Fire Warriors.
tag8833 wrote: I tried out Skytyrant formation today against Tau.
Skytyrant was built like this:
Tyrant (Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.Grubs)
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
My opponent wasn't really up to facing my list, and so I moved the formation out into the open rather than into a nice set of ruins on turn 2, and his entire army shot into it. I lost 16 gargoyles. On my turn 2, I tried to charge Farsight + 4 gun Drones + 3 Suites. After tau overwatch I lost all 4 remaining gargoyles, and took 3 wounds on the flyrant, and then failed a 7" charge.
Still, it occupied my opponents entire army for 2 turns, and my 8 raveners ran amok. Killed a riptide turn 2. Killed Fire Warriors turn 3. Killed more fire warriors turn 4. Killed a Devil Fish turn 5. My Exocrine + Dakkafex killed the suites once the formation failed, and my dakkaflyrant was able to safely kill lots and lots of suites thanks to the Skytyrant drawing all of the fire for 2 turns, and the Raveners dealing with all of the anti-air.
I also had 10 Hormagants that killed 6 pathfinders and then 12 Fire Warriors.
Sounds like you dominated pretty well. I love raveners, by the way - i'm glad to see other folks are using them too.
All that being said -- I'd never play it easy on a tau player with Nids. That's like a worm taking it easy on a sparrow.
As nice as these pics are, you would do better to post them in the Painting section and then just link to here. Otherwise this tactics thread will get clogged with WIPs and final works of Nids.
The Harpy is a curious creature. While at first glance appearing to be a gunship with a panoply of guns and the Hunt Instinctive Behavior, as a shooting platform the Harpy will generally come up short compared to a duel devourer-equipped Tyrant due to its blast based weaponry. However, if one looks deeper one will find the following.
- Sonic Screech: On the turn in which the Harpy charges, all enemy units in the combat have their suffer a -5 penalty to their initiative (to a minimum of 1) until the end of that assault phase.
This is the key ability of the Harpy and is the primary reason to consider bringing one outside of formations that require their inclusion. Sonic Screech serves as a major force multiplier for Tyranid melee capabilities. The ability to force enemies to swing after your own units (or at worst simultaneously) has a huge impact on both the survivability and damage potential of said units and can be the difference between successfully crippling (if not destroying) the enemy and being wiped out.
Outside of its sonic screech ability, the Harpy is a fairly unremarkable monstrous creature with a below-average (for a monstrous creature) S5, T5, and 4+ armor save, along with the standard WS/BS 3 and an unusually high initiative of 5. While its firepower isn't as potent as that of a Hive Tyrant, the Harpy does offer board-wide coverage thanks to the range of the bio-cannons and can play more cautiously as needed thanks to this. In terms of vulnerabilities, the Harpy shares most of the same weaknesses as other Tyranid monstrous creatures, with the added concern of Ap4 weapons (particularly Autocannons and Krak Grenades) and S10 weaponry that can double it out. In addition, the Harpy is virtually defenseless against enemy aircraft due to its weaponry being mostly blasts (and the few attacks that it can use against aircraft are both S5), unlike the other two Tyranid flying monsters.
Biomorphs:
- Scything Talons (stock): Currently does nothing for the Harpy, since it has no other melee weapons to pair them with and the AP6 from the talons is overruled by the Smash rule. Moving on…
- Spore Cysts (stock): This unusual weapon allows the Harpy to do what amounts to a bombing run during the movement phase with more or less the same weapon as a Biovore. Due to the wording of the rules for firing, the shot has no restrictions on using the Harpy’s Ballistic Skill to reduce its D6’’ scatter, giving the Spore Cysts near perfect accuracy against anything short of a heavily depleted squad (being a barrage weapon, this makes it is quite good for picking out special weapons and the like).
- Twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon (stock): The default weapon carried by the Harpy, good for thinning out hoard-type units and general anti-infantry firepower. As a pinning weapon, it can also be used to try to pin squads in preparation for assault, with the usual caveats over the reliability of pinning. A good weapon if the only thing needed from the Harpy is it be present (due to a formation) or if it is intended to act purely as a melee support (meaning it will be jinking most of the time for survivability, making its guns irrelevant).
- Twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon: The Heavy Venom Cannon exchanges blast size for the ability to pierce 4+ armor and the strength needed for vehicle hunting. While not a particularly good anti-tank weapon due to the low rate of fire and poor AP, the HVC does offer the ability to pop Quantum Shielding at range for devourer-equipped units to finish off and it does have decent accuracy and range. Better in a meta with a higher quantity of xenos armies, less effective against Imperial ones.
- Stinger Salvo: Upgrades the Harpy with a non-blast weapon, allowing it to shoot at other fliers and fire overwatch. Bit expensive though for what it does and the low strength limits the amount of damage that can be done.
- Cluster Spines: Upgrades the Harpy with another large blast weapon, allowing it to throw out two a turn without having to use its Spore Cysts. Again though, bit expensive for what it does (makes the Harpy only 5 points cheaper than a Hive Crone) and irrelevant if the Harpy is being used in a support role.
- Acid Blood: Synergizes quite well with the Sonic Screech rule, but is generally not worth it since it is horribly unreliable in any rounds of combat beyond the first and does nothing if the Harpy is being used as a gunship.
- Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive and undercuts the main advantage of the Harpy being cheap.
- Toxin Sacs: Generally better put on whatever the Harpy will be supporting with its sonic screech rather than the Harpy itself, since its low quantity of attacks coupled with low strength limit the benefit of poisoned attacks.
- Adrenal Glands: Again, generally better put on the real combat units that the Harpy is supporting rather than the Harpy itself. Being able to move as a jump monstrous creature, the Harpy can save its jump move to act as pseudo-Fleet if necessary.
Grade: B (as a force multiplier) | C (as a gunship)
Hive Crone:
Spoiler:
Unlike its cousin, the Hive Crone is strictly designed as an offense unit. While the Hive Crone sports an impressive arsenal that covers most unit types as viable targets, it is primarily an anti-air and anti-infantry specialist thanks the nerfs to the Vector Strike rule against ground targets in 7th edition.
In competitive play, the Hive Crone’s main function is that of a toolbox unit. Due to its diverse selection of weaponry combined with mobility, the Hive Crone can be used to fill gaps that emerge in a player’s offensive arsenal turn by turn - ranging from rooting entrenched troops out of cover with its templates strike to anti-heavy armor with Tentaclids and Vector Strike. It also serves excellently as an interceptor, being able to enter ongoing reserves in order to ambush enemy fliers arriving from reserves without sacrificing synapse coverage.
The Crone shares most of the weaknesses of the Harpy, but with the added concern of its Instinctive Behavior disabling its guns if it should fail (Ld 10 makes this fairly unlikely, but still something to keep in mind). With the onset of 7th, the Crone lost much of its ability against light ground vehicles, since it lacks the quantity of attacks needed to wipe out such a target on its own in one pass. Likewise, it also lost much of its capability against heavy infantry (and to a lesser extent ground-based monstrous creatures).
Unique Special Rules:
- Raking Strike: Upgrades the Hive Crone’s Vector Strike to S8 rather than the base S5 of the creature, making it far more dangerous against other monstrous creatures, able to hurt vehicles up to AV13, and adding the ability to double out T4 models. Simple, but effective.
Biomorphs:
- Scything Talons (stock): Like the Harpy, the Hive Crone has no other melee weapons to pair them with and the AP6 from the talons is overruled by the Smash rule.
- Drool Cannon (stock): Effectively a short-barreled version of the Tyrannofex’s Acid Spray, virtually identical apart from the lack of the Torrent rule. With the Crone being prone to vector striking things, the lack of Torrent isn't too big of an issue as it will generally be in range of something anyway.
- Tentaclids (4x stock): One-shot S5 Ap5 Haywire missiles that can reroll failed to hit rolls against aircraft. Due to the Crone’s mediocre ballistic skill, these are generally best reserved for finishing off enemy aircraft between vector strike attack runs. If no aircraft are available, they can be used to help soften up AV13+ vehicles, though again their accuracy is greatly reduced.
- Stinger Salvo: A bit more palatable on the Hive Crone, worth considering as a back-up gun for once it has used all of its Tentaclids. Not a must have, but an okay place to spend the last couple points in a list.
- Cluster Spines: Similar to the above, but limited to strictly anti-infantry due to its nature as a blast. Since the Crone already has its excellent template weapon, the Salvo is probably a bit more ideal for it (not to mention it is cheaper).
- Acid Blood: Seeing as the Crone has no reason to ever leave Swooping-mode…
-Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive for what it does and once the Crone has expended its Tentaclids it looses most of its perceived threat value.
- Toxin Sacs: See Acid Blood. If the Crone is in combat, either something went terribly wrong or you are winning anyway.
- Adrenal Glands: Same as above.
Grade: B
Added, and thanks!
jifel wrote: Go ahead and sign me up to review the Tyrannofex!
Side note: Current rumors are that the new Broodlord character will provide Stealth and Preferred enemy to his squad... What do you guys think that will do for Genestealers? I see it being potentially very very useful, I'm probably even going to play test a big 20 unit with the Spawn!
You got it, jifel!
That would make them better for sure. As long as you can put enough threats right up there with the BL+stealers, then they have the potential to really smash face. I see them working well with a Tyranid MC in a tyrannocyte.
I thought the rules said you can only take a LOW from your primary detachment?
jy2 wrote: I'm not too concerned about the new bases. The majority will win out so all the current bases should be good. Besides, GW used to have a policy that you could always use the bases included with the models. I wouldn't even sweat it. Current bases should be good at tournaments for a while.
Lets hear some anecdotes of Sonic Screech actually working in game. The only time I've had it help me out was when a harpy got grounded next to an imperial Knight, and It chraged in with some carnifexes. The Imperial Knight Killed both Carnifexes but on the 3rd round of combat the Harpy took it out then died in the explosion. That is the only time I've ever seen it have an actual effect, and I've run Harpies alot.
Strat_N8 wrote: -Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive for what it does and once the Crone has expended its Tentaclids it looses most of its perceived threat value.
Same question, has anybody ever actually taken regen on a Harpy or Crone and Regened a wound. I've never taken it because it doesn't really make sense to. Regen gets you back one wound if you are lucky, and the cost per wound of a Harpy is 27 points, so regen is a bad bargain. Crone is 31 so makes a tiny bit more sense. Also hapries and crones can't wound themselves via perils, nor are they likely to be targetted by the opponent alpha strike.
Agreed. I, for one, have never used nor seen anyone use the harpy's Sonic Screech effectively.
However, this may change. Whereas before, tyranids were somewhat pathetic in Assault, with the dimachaeron, the skytyrant formation and possibly the new BL+genestealer formation, Tyranids are becoming viable once again as an assault army. With the changing meta, Sonic Screech may become a little better and dare I say, maybe more than just an afterthought?
Regen for harpies/hive crones, on the other hand, just doesn't make any sense to me. If you want to get Regen, put it on some of your best units (i.e. the flyrant, any 6W TMC) instead.
Strat_N8 wrote: Unlike its cousin, the Hive Crone is strictly designed as an offense unit. While the Hive Crone sports an impressive arsenal that covers most unit types as viable targets, it is primarily an anti-air specialist thanks the nerfs to the Vector Strike rule against ground targets in 7th edition coupled with its missiles’ inaccuracy against ground targets.
My Crones almost never do any anti-air. They vector strike a vehicle or elite infantry, and then lay a flamer down on infantry in cover. The flamer does the lion-share of the damage. With the Crone's mobility you can often maneuver to get multiple units with the flamer. Also 19 out 20 Tentaclids get shot at ground targets. I'm usually taking out flyer with flyrants or vector strike, and the Flame template is more important than a single glance to a flyrant, and so I generally forgo tentaclids in the late game when fliers are on the board.
This really depends on your meta. In competitive tournament play, I see a lot (and I mean, a lot!) of flyers/FMC's, especially at the larger tournaments - the GT's. So while you may not use him much for AA in your local meta, I actually see him as more useful in tournament play, where he becomes both a AA threat as well as a threat to infantry with his flamer.
Leth wrote: I thought the rules said you can only take a LOW from your primary detachment?
Spoiler:
jy2 wrote: I'm not too concerned about the new bases. The majority will win out so all the current bases should be good. Besides, GW used to have a policy that you could always use the bases included with the models. I wouldn't even sweat it. Current bases should be good at tournaments for a while.
Yes you can. Both Primary detachment and the Leviathan detachment can take a Lords of War.
The Leviathan formation allows you to take a LoW, just like the Grey Knight Nemesis Strike Force formation allows you to take a LoW.
So in a Primary + Leviathan build, you can actually take 2 LoW's! So 5 flyrants and 2 Barbed Hierodules (something you can actually fit in at 2500-pts)....is that crazy or what!
tetrisphreak wrote: Our weekly casual league is tonight, here's the list i'm going with for a laugh:
CAD
HQ - OOE (In a Tyrannocyte)
TP - Mucolid x1
TP - Mucolid x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
HV - Dakkafex x2
HV- Carnifex w ScyTals & AG x3
HV- Carnifex w CClaws & AG x2
Total - 1500 points
8 carnifexes and 2 malanthropes. Just because i have the models and i figured, why not. haha.
That is mean. OOE is going to be awreckingball in that list. Dakkafex hold midfeild covering the Mals, Crushers and and stock fex charge in head long, with OOE coming in round 3 as a finishing blow.
So I faced a mechanized Astra militarum list. He had a tank commander in a battle tank and a vanquisher bodyguard, 3 chimeras with vets, a solo Russ battle tank, a wyvern, and 3 basilisks. The game started in my favor with vanguard strike and I won 1st turn along with night fight.
Turn 3 my fexes reached his line of tanks and obliterated his HQ unit easily. I had destroyed a chimera with devourers the turn before and hadn't yet lost any fexes due to shrouded and ruins saves. He was demoralized seeing 7 carnifexes in his DZ with 1 more on the way via pod. (OOE Failed all his reserve rolls). At the end of turn 3 he flat conceded. Crushing victory to hive fleet Tigris!
For some reason, almost every report I see between Tyranids and AM, it's usually bugs that come out on top. Hmmmm....curious indeed.
In any case, well played (and probably even better dice-played ).
Iechine wrote: Had a 6k game yesterday at Dropzone games, my forces vs a chaos detachment and Grey Knights as well. Turn three about 2k of Ravenwing bikes showed up.
Tyranids dominated throughout, they had almost no anti air and I had venomthropes and malanthrope working overtime. Although we called it at turn 3 because we are old and sleepy, it was a lot of fun. My Warrior deathstar fought a massive blob of Raptors and won, my Heirophant Bio torrented a massive group of bikes and then assaulted, killing about 900pts work of bikes in one turn.
My two Carnifexes both epically charged and tackled down a Dreadknight. Bugs actually lost very little in forces, maybe 1000pts worth despite being severely overmatched points wise.
In large-scale games, if opponents don't bring the D, then Tyranids can be really tough to play against, especially when you are bringing a unit like the Hierophant.
Well played!
BTW, I am loving all of these success stories with bugs!
1) I will use 2 Harpy/Hive Crone boxes and 1 Trygon box.
2) I will use the 2 harpy bodies (1 will have tail cut off) back to back for a longer body.
3) Trygon Torso for the "Neck" and Head (he trygon without the tail part, I will also Use that tail + some other bits and make a cool Deamon Prince later, I have a CSM army that I want a Deamon alies for)
4) I will cut 1 set of wings a bit and shape the other set, to make 2 Large wigns
http://i.imgur.com/mNZJXni.png < Pic of paint (Im not good with Paint) The GREEN in the Pic will be Green stuff (I'd imagine I will need it there).
Each wing will be 4x8 ", The Tail to Head will be 12" (1 foot), Full model with Wings will be about 13x14"
Have fun! And please show off your converted Harridan when you are done.
Eldercaveman wrote: I'm going to be giving this list a run out on Thursday against a former GT winner, and his nasty Eldar, so should be a good test!
That's nasty. Though with all of those reserves, you might want to consider a way to bring them in more reliably.
Let us know how you do!
luke1705 wrote: Nice batrep Wilson. Confirmed for me what I've already been thinking about Flyrants - it is so dangerous to cast heavy duty psychic powers while flying. One perils, a grounding check later and you've lost half of your wounds probably (although one time I did cast Catalyst, then pass FNP so I never perilsed in the first place haha).
On an odd note that may have a place in YMDC, when exactly does your opponent declare if he is jinking or not? Warp lance may have some extra utility there if he has to declare before you declare how many dice you're throwing at the attempt to manifest. If he jinks, you throw 2 or even just 1 die. If not, you can then proceed to try harder.
Finally, my random "I can't believe this adds up to 1850/Leviathan may actually be broken" list of the day:
Spoiler:
Flyrant w/Devs & EGrubs
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Flyrant w/Devs & EGrubs
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion w/Comms
The lack of synapse is offset somewhat by leviathan's re-roll benefit, and I do like the 1:1 Lictor:Mawloc ratio haha...
Interesting concept. If you ever try it out, would love to hear how it went.
tag8833 wrote: I tried out Skytyrant formation today against Tau.
Skytyrant was built like this:
Tyrant (Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.Grubs)
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
My opponent wasn't really up to facing my list, and so I moved the formation out into the open rather than into a nice set of ruins on turn 2, and his entire army shot into it. I lost 16 gargoyles. On my turn 2, I tried to charge Farsight + 4 gun Drones + 3 Suites. After tau overwatch I lost all 4 remaining gargoyles, and took 3 wounds on the flyrant, and then failed a 7" charge.
Still, it occupied my opponents entire army for 2 turns, and my 8 raveners ran amok. Killed a riptide turn 2. Killed Fire Warriors turn 3. Killed more fire warriors turn 4. Killed a Devil Fish turn 5. My Exocrine + Dakkafex killed the suites once the formation failed, and my dakkaflyrant was able to safely kill lots and lots of suites thanks to the Skytyrant drawing all of the fire for 2 turns, and the Raveners dealing with all of the anti-air.
I also had 10 Hormagants that killed 6 pathfinders and then 12 Fire Warriors.
In my game with the Skytyrant, I ran this:
Flyrant - 1x Devourers, Reaper, AG, TS
2x20 Gargoyles
Unfortunately, I got charged by my opponent's GUO w/Balesword (and Warp Speed) and he challenged out my Uber-CC-rant, so I couldn't LOS my wounds. Fortunately, I attacked first (I8 vs his I7 ). I then hit 3 times and wounded all 3 times (S7 with Shred). More importantly, I rolled 1 to wound!
Then the GUO fails both normal saves but passes his Insta-death save and proceeded to insta-kill my 295-pt flyrant.
Anyways, battle report should be coming out tonight.
tag8833 wrote: I tried out Skytyrant formation today against Tau.
Spoiler:
Skytyrant was built like this:
Tyrant (Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.Grubs)
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
My opponent wasn't really up to facing my list, and so I moved the formation out into the open rather than into a nice set of ruins on turn 2, and his entire army shot into it. I lost 16 gargoyles. On my turn 2, I tried to charge Farsight + 4 gun Drones + 3 Suites. After tau overwatch I lost all 4 remaining gargoyles, and took 3 wounds on the flyrant, and then failed a 7" charge.
Still, it occupied my opponents entire army for 2 turns, and my 8 raveners ran amok. Killed a riptide turn 2. Killed Fire Warriors turn 3. Killed more fire warriors turn 4. Killed a Devil Fish turn 5. My Exocrine + Dakkafex killed the suites once the formation failed, and my dakkaflyrant was able to safely kill lots and lots of suites thanks to the Skytyrant drawing all of the fire for 2 turns, and the Raveners dealing with all of the anti-air.
I also had 10 Hormagants that killed 6 pathfinders and then 12 Fire Warriors.
Sounds like you dominated pretty well. I love raveners, by the way - i'm glad to see other folks are using them too.
All that being said -- I'd never play it easy on a tau player with Nids. That's like a worm taking it easy on a sparrow.
Yeah, raveners are great! Traditionally, they have done well for me as well. That is because they aren't as high-profile as some of the other units in the army and most of my opponents under-estimate their damage potential as well as their speed when facing them.
And yeah, hearing the crunching of Space Communist bones is such sweet music to my Tyranid ears.
Yeah the 6 Mawloc list is something that I do want to try out just to see how it goes. To be honest, I wonder if 6 lictors is too few, since they are basically the army's lynchpin and not unkillable by any means.
By the way, totally unrelated, but thought tou guys might be interested to hear:
I emailed Forge World a couple weeks back (before this whole Tyrannocyte hype) about the rules change to the super heavy walkers that GW put out. Being a sneaky Tyranid player, I used that as a veil to ask them about how GMC move through cover, as there really is no difference between them and regular monstrous creatures (congrats GW). What they said was that they do the standard move through cover roll (3d6) but drop the lowest and SUM the two highest dice, so they still could move 12" (although it's the same odds of perils on 3d6) but hey you're always going to get more movement than you would using the BRB rule set, so I'm fine with it. Interesting third take
As to fighter aces - I re read the entire section and the consensus of 1 per army is right. The only change from a mission with "fighter aces" and a standard game is the 35 pt tax. The Limit of 1 model stands in both variants.
I retract my initial response of taking the upgrade on "every flyrant ever" but will be using it on at least my warlord every time.
In what is becoming a friendly rivalry and a very educational experience (especially for my friend), this is the 3rd game between my Tyranids and Chris' Daemon Summoning army. And with each passing game, my opponent is getting better and better and his lists are getting nastier and nastier. Chris has just been getting back into the game recently and is still re-learning the game. At the same time, he is practicing for what will be his first GT ever, the Las Vegas Open GT coming next February. I was happy to help him get "up-to-speed" with his army in 7th Edition. Besides, I needed the practice against a good Summoning army as well.
In our first game, I was trying out the dimachaeron and raveners. It was Chris' first time facing the dimachaeron and he really didn't know how to play against it (even though I explained about the dima before our game). The dima went on to single-handedly take apart Chris' daemons, killing over 1000-pts of warpspawn all by himself.
In our 2nd game, Chris was ready for my dimachaeron. I also wanted to test out the Deathleaper Assassin Brood. This game was a much tougher fight for my bugs, as Chris was able to summon 850-pts of daemons....with only 2 summoning psykers! The difference in that game turned out to be my experience, but man, did I have to fight for it:
This will be our 3rd game between my bugs and Chris' daemons. This time, he's got the experience and he's got a super-nasty Daemon Summoning army. Whereas last game, he only used 2 of his daemons for summoning (and still summoned 850-pts of units!), this time, he is running 4 dedicated summoners. He is also running Baleswords and rocking Biomancy powers for all of his Nurgle MC's. As for me, I am testing out the new Skytyrant formation from the Shield of Baal supplement. I am also trying out for the very first time the Fighter Ace upgrade as well. It's not going to be an easy fight. Then again, I wouldn't want it any other way.
1. Hold Either Objective 1.
2. Hold Either Objective 2.
3. Destroy an enemy unit.
4. Destroy an enemy unit.
5. Have a scoring unit at least partially within the enemy deployment zone.
6. Have at least 3 of your scoring units and no enemy scoring units at least partially within your own deployment zone.
Tertiary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, 1-pt each
So what is the Skytyrant formation? The formation consists of 1 flyrant and 2 units of gargoyles. Basically, these 3 units combine to form 1 unit. While the flyrant is in the unit, he cannot swoop nor can he leave the unit. However, he can Look-Out-Sirs any wounds allocated to him onto one of his gargoyle "meat-shields" instead. The flyrant also gains +6" Synapse and reverts back to a normal, swooping flyrant only when all the gargoyles in the unit are killed. In the case of my army, I basically have a flyrant with 40 gargoyle bodyguards which I can pass my wounds onto.
For my Pre-game Analysis, I am going to do my Top 10 analysis instead.
Top 10 Reasons Why Daemons Will Win.
1. Lots of summoning powers = lots of free units. The more units he can summon, the harder it will be for my army to deal with.
2. Insta-death everywhere. All of his Nurgle MC's cause Insta-death. That means my dimachaeron will do 2 things this game - jack and squat!
3. I get sh*tty psychic powers. Oh what fun the Horror is going to do in this game. And where is FNP when you need it!
4. My jaws dropped at my opponent's psychic powers. Warp Speed for all?!? WTF?!? That means all of his Nurgle guys will be striking before my dimachaeron on open ground! Iron Arms on both GUO's! 2 Sacrifices, 2 Incursions and Cursed Earth. Really? I don't think his powers can get any better than this.
5. Look at those Daemonic gifts! Really?!? Everyone of them are good. No crappy gifts, at least not on the guys that matter. 4+ FNP's everywhere, +1 Wound, It Will Not Die and re-rollable Invuln's...these powers are a daemon player's wet dream come true!
6. Super-high mobility. 3 flying MC's and the ability to summon very fast daemons with Incursion means my opponent has got a very fast army.
7. Lack of shooting. Normally, lack of shooting is bad, but in this case, that means my malanthrope and bastion are somewhat wasted points.
8. Objectives. With the ability to add so many units, my opponent should have the advantage in the Maelstrom objectives. Moreover, the units that he summons can be very fast units.
9. My opponent is more familiar with my army now that he's played against it a couple of times. Also, he should know better what to expect, though the Skytyrant formation will be new to him (as it is to me as well).
10. Nurgle daemons and their Shrouded 2+ jink/ruins cover saves can be a b*tch to play against. Combine that with 4+ FNP everywhere and now you are essentially looking at a re-rollable 2+ unit (which is actually a 2+/4+ unit in the BAO format). That definitely is a b*tch to play against.
Top 10 Reasons Why Tyranids Will Win.
1. He is playing against me, a very savvy and experienced general.
2. F U daemons. I am going to tarpit the crap out of you with 40 frickin' gargoyles.
3. My bugs are definitely a better shooting army. Even if I won't really take down his Nurgle guys, at least I can take down his Slaanesh MC's to reduce his Summoning capabilities.
4. I predict that my dimachaeron will get more kills this game than he did last game (which was 0). So any contribution on his part is an improvement.
5. I think I can control the board with my Skytyrant unit. Thus, I should have better access to the objectives than my opponent.
6. Being Initiative 8, my Skytyrant has a chance to kill his GUO in combat, even with Warp Speed (which would give it Initiative 7). However, my Skytyrant would be toast in combat against one of his Nurgle DP's with Warp Speed.
7. I am going 2nd, which means I have the final say on the objectives (that is, if the game doesn't continue).
8. I have a secret weapon.....Shadows in the Warp!
9. Uh...did I mention that I was the more experienced general? Well, that's worth 2 points on my Top 10 list.
10. While my opponent takes a break (restroom, smoke, whatever), I shall secretly remove one of his MC models from the table and hope he doesn't notice.
Your primary detachment is the one with your warlord in it. It has nothing to do with what a detachment can take. Any of the detachments could be your primary.
Alright boys, I have an issue for the hive. Lets see what comes of this. I have a good friend that I brought into the game on Dark Angels, and he has promptly brought in quite a few guardsman. Now unfortunately, he somehow got it into his head that hordes are these wonderful things, and decided to turn the guard into his version of my Tyranids. Like I said, completely out of nowhere idea. And he decided to fill his lovely massive infantry platoons full of flamers and flamer special weapon squads with a few grenade launcher squads in the rear. He also is working on 2 max size units of conscripts. I have also since learned that FRFSRF is very unpleasant en masse.
My hive fleet is being decimated and he likes to keep a tally of what he has burnt to a crisp. Here is a basic mapping of his army from when I helped him build it and keep it legal, if I remember it right.
3x PCS 6x Infantry squads w/ Flamer, Vox
2x SWS w/ Flamers
2x SWS w/ Grenade Launchers
2x HWS w/ Autocannons
50x Conscripts
1x Vendetta (Why did I buy him this for Christmas?)
1x Armored Sentinel
1x Chimera
1x Basilisk
1x Leman Russ
Anyone got any recommendations for taking out chunks of that infantry? I've got a few Mawlocs and Biovores, but they certainly aren't taking out enough before our lines hit. Also, that Vendetta is an obnoxious little bugger who likes to pick on my Carnifexes. Should I put a rush on finishing up my Flyrants or do I have some other options that could work for taking it out quickly?
Are all MC's extremely bulky? I've also assumed so, but I've just looked in the Monstrous Creature rules, and it's not listed as one of there special rules, and none of ours have it listed in their profiles.
I only ask because I want to know what can't be used to for the Dimachaerons Thorax attack.
Eldercaveman wrote: Are all MC's extremely bulky? I've also assumed so, but I've just looked in the Monstrous Creature rules, and it's not listed as one of there special rules, and none of ours have it listed in their profiles.
I only ask because I want to know what can't be used to for the Dimachaerons Thorax attack.
The thorax attack specifies it can only hit "Infantry models that do not have the very bulky or extremely bulky rule". No bikes, no MCs, no vehicles, no beasts, no cavalry, no artillery.
Eldercaveman wrote: Are all MC's extremely bulky? I've also assumed so, but I've just looked in the Monstrous Creature rules, and it's not listed as one of there special rules, and none of ours have it listed in their profiles.
I only ask because I want to know what can't be used to for the Dimachaerons Thorax attack.
The thorax attack specifies it can only hit "Infantry models that do not have the very bulky or extremely bulky rule". No bikes, no MCs, no vehicles, no beasts, no cavalry, no artillery.
It only says Extremely Bulky. But where does it say what has the Extremely bulky rule?
Eldercaveman wrote: Are all MC's extremely bulky? I've also assumed so, but I've just looked in the Monstrous Creature rules, and it's not listed as one of there special rules, and none of ours have it listed in their profiles.
I only ask because I want to know what can't be used to for the Dimachaerons Thorax attack.
The thorax attack specifies it can only hit "Infantry models that do not have the very bulky or extremely bulky rule". No bikes, no MCs, no vehicles, no beasts, no cavalry, no artillery.
It only says Extremely Bulky. But where does it say what has the Extremely bulky rule?
Bikes/Jetbikes - EB Jump Units - B
Jet Pack Units - B
Beasts- Doesn't state.
Cavalry - Doesn't State
Monstrous Creatures - Doesn't state.
"...A spine maw attack may target any Infantry models that do not have the Extremely Bulky special rule..."
You're missing the key descriptor - it only affects infantry. Centurions are infantry with EB, so you may not eat a centurion with it. i'm sure there are other examples as well - i think Destroyers are Jump Infantry with EB.
Bikes/Jetbikes - EB Jump Units - B
Jet Pack Units - B
Beasts- Doesn't state.
Cavalry - Doesn't State
Monstrous Creatures - Doesn't state.
"...A spine maw attack may target any Infantry models that do not have the Extremely Bulky special rule..."
You're missing the key descriptor - it only affects infantry. Centurions are infantry with EB, so you may not eat a centurion with it. i'm sure there are other examples as well - i think Destroyers are Jump Infantry with EB.
Blah! Brain fart, I was wondering why that wouldn't click! Cheers!
Running my Dimachaeron for the first time tonight.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Alright boys, I have an issue for the hive. Lets see what comes of this. I have a good friend that I brought into the game on Dark Angels, and he has promptly brought in quite a few guardsman. Now unfortunately, he somehow got it into his head that hordes are these wonderful things, and decided to turn the guard into his version of my Tyranids. Like I said, completely out of nowhere idea. And he decided to fill his lovely massive infantry platoons full of flamers and flamer special weapon squads with a few grenade launcher squads in the rear. He also is working on 2 max size units of conscripts. I have also since learned that FRFSRF is very unpleasant en masse.
My hive fleet is being decimated and he likes to keep a tally of what he has burnt to a crisp. Here is a basic mapping of his army from when I helped him build it and keep it legal, if I remember it right.
3x PCS 6x Infantry squads w/ Flamer, Vox
2x SWS w/ Flamers
2x SWS w/ Grenade Launchers
2x HWS w/ Autocannons
50x Conscripts
1x Vendetta (Why did I buy him this for Christmas?)
1x Armored Sentinel
1x Chimera
1x Basilisk
1x Leman Russ
Anyone got any recommendations for taking out chunks of that infantry? I've got a few Mawlocs and Biovores, but they certainly aren't taking out enough before our lines hit. Also, that Vendetta is an obnoxious little bugger who likes to pick on my Carnifexes. Should I put a rush on finishing up my Flyrants or do I have some other options that could work for taking it out quickly?
Well, Mawloc, and Biovores are good answers. But you could use a Tyranofex, Thorax Hive. Give it a Hormagaunt screen, and you should be able to put a few dents in those hordes.
This is for use in the LGS, so no 5 Flyrants for me, rather a general TAC list. Will play against Chaos Space Marines with this friday, so welcome your input!
-- Combined Arms
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; regeneration; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Probably not, but I am happy to see the Tyranid community (at least here on dakka) bonding together to show people that Tyranids are not as bad as most had thought.
This thread is less than 11 months old though. We're averaging near a new page per day. Doubt many threads can say that, even some of the ones that are 1,000 pages long.
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Unyielding Hunger wrote: Alright boys, I have an issue for the hive. Lets see what comes of this. I have a good friend that I brought into the game on Dark Angels, and he has promptly brought in quite a few guardsman. Now unfortunately, he somehow got it into his head that hordes are these wonderful things, and decided to turn the guard into his version of my Tyranids. Like I said, completely out of nowhere idea. And he decided to fill his lovely massive infantry platoons full of flamers and flamer special weapon squads with a few grenade launcher squads in the rear. He also is working on 2 max size units of conscripts. I have also since learned that FRFSRF is very unpleasant en masse.
My hive fleet is being decimated and he likes to keep a tally of what he has burnt to a crisp. Here is a basic mapping of his army from when I helped him build it and keep it legal, if I remember it right.
3x PCS 6x Infantry squads w/ Flamer, Vox
2x SWS w/ Flamers
2x SWS w/ Grenade Launchers
2x HWS w/ Autocannons
50x Conscripts
1x Vendetta (Why did I buy him this for Christmas?)
1x Armored Sentinel
1x Chimera
1x Basilisk
1x Leman Russ
Anyone got any recommendations for taking out chunks of that infantry? I've got a few Mawlocs and Biovores, but they certainly aren't taking out enough before our lines hit. Also, that Vendetta is an obnoxious little bugger who likes to pick on my Carnifexes. Should I put a rush on finishing up my Flyrants or do I have some other options that could work for taking it out quickly?
Biovores love hordes. Literally love. If you are already running an exocrine, then the Living Artillery Node is probably going to be your best friend. Biovores are especially great at anti-horde because they are barrage, so the wounds come from the center of the blast (allowing you to snipe out a character, etc) but this also means that cover is essentially ignored unless the models affected are standing in it AND it does not require you to be 25% obscured, like ruins and battlefield debris (or a crater oddly lol). It is possible to be covered by at least 25% in other terrain, but this is much less likely because it's checked from the center of the blast, which you get to place, so be smart about it and kill some stuff!
Basically, the only thing that Biovores aren't awesome at killing is 3+ armor or better. Against a guard blob, you can easily put 15 wounds on them, wound on 3's, so you're looking at 10 dead guardsmen a turn. Not too shabby. As has been pointed out, 2 units of three will make your friend seriously reconsider running hordes.
Flyrants rule the skies, and putting out an average of 9 wounds per turn on anything T4 or less is great, though you probably don't want to waste that strength 6 on guardsmen. Get to the rear armor of those tanks and light them up (or just pop as many transports as you'd like, giving the Biovores more things to shoot at )
Carnifexes have the same guns as the Flyrants (or can) and they open tanks like a kid opens presents on Christmas day.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Alright boys, I have an issue for the hive. Lets see what comes of this. I have a good friend that I brought into the game on Dark Angels, and he has promptly brought in quite a few guardsman. Now unfortunately, he somehow got it into his head that hordes are these wonderful things, and decided to turn the guard into his version of my Tyranids. Like I said, completely out of nowhere idea. And he decided to fill his lovely massive infantry platoons full of flamers and flamer special weapon squads with a few grenade launcher squads in the rear. He also is working on 2 max size units of conscripts. I have also since learned that FRFSRF is very unpleasant en masse.
My hive fleet is being decimated and he likes to keep a tally of what he has burnt to a crisp. Here is a basic mapping of his army from when I helped him build it and keep it legal, if I remember it right.
3x PCS 6x Infantry squads w/ Flamer, Vox
2x SWS w/ Flamers
2x SWS w/ Grenade Launchers
2x HWS w/ Autocannons
50x Conscripts
1x Vendetta (Why did I buy him this for Christmas?)
1x Armored Sentinel
1x Chimera
1x Basilisk
1x Leman Russ
Anyone got any recommendations for taking out chunks of that infantry? I've got a few Mawlocs and Biovores, but they certainly aren't taking out enough before our lines hit. Also, that Vendetta is an obnoxious little bugger who likes to pick on my Carnifexes. Should I put a rush on finishing up my Flyrants or do I have some other options that could work for taking it out quickly?
Even your flyrants can do work against his infantry. Now I don't know how many flyrants you are running (or if any at all), but electroshock + 6 devourers can put a dent into his unit and you can do so relatively safely with your flyrants still swooping. With 2 or 3 flyrants, the damage becomes substantial whereas the threat of retaliation gets weaker. Most of his flashlights will be hitting and wounding on 6's anyways.
Then you've got mawlocs, biovores and hive crones to thin out the herd, so to speak. When firing biovores, make sure to center the blasts on important models like commissars and primaris psykers. Get rid of their stubborness/fearlessness/ability to cast Prescience/Perfect Timing/etc. The only time you will really have problems is if one of his psykers get Invisibility.
Try to get your flyrants to within Shadows range of his psykers and then watch as he starts failing his Perils tests.
Finally, don't forget your psychic powers. Powers such as Paroxysm can be very useful against the blob. If he doesn't have a commissar or Fearless guy in there, then the Horror can be quite good as well. Finally, if he is running multiple units, then Psychic Scream can be devastating if you can get your flyrants into the right place.
Lastly, you can take a tyrannocyte with 5 barbed strangler and put a tyrannofex with dual templates in it. That unit is devastating to a horde army.
So I'm a (relatively) new Nid player who's been having fun with Endless Swarm. I'm considering running skytyrant, but am unsure what melee artefact to run: Maw-Claws sound amazing for giving 40+ gargoyles Pref enemy, but most people in this thread seem to be taking the Reaper? I guess that's because the gargoyles are essentially a huge meatshield and are meant to die, but do people think Maw-claws could work as opposed to a Reaper or..?
Benlisted wrote: So I'm a (relatively) new Nid player who's been having fun with Endless Swarm. I'm considering running skytyrant, but am unsure what melee artefact to run: Maw-Claws sound amazing for giving 40+ gargoyles Pref enemy, but most people in this thread seem to be taking the Reaper? I guess that's because the gargoyles are essentially a huge meatshield and are meant to die, but do people think Maw-claws could work as opposed to a Reaper or..?
Preferred enemy isn't that important for the gargoyles. They are there as ablative wounds not to do damage. Preferred enemy for the Tyrant, on the other hand could be good. The problem is, a Tyrant without a BS + LW doesn't have instant death or +3 Initiative and will get his butt kicked by most other close combat bad-asses.
I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...
I used to run a "Winged Assassin" with Wings, Lash/Bone, Toxic with Thorax Hive with great success. I'm kinda thinking with SkyTyrant those days may be back! Even without Insta Killy Awesomness you'd still have Rending. And you'd save a bunch of points.
Low cost Assassin/SkyTyrant: Wings, Mawclaws,Toxic, Thorax Hive.....220? That looks dang cheap! Shoot you can toss points at all sorts of goofy upgrades with moderate to low guilt.
badula wrote: i've noticed that FW doesn't sell shrikes' wings anymore.... anyone has some info about it?
It was mentioned in the FW releases thread I believe- they don't fit the new warrior kit. They pulled them until they can work out a solution.
seems i've missed that!
good news btw!^^
i DO hope for a plastic upgrade kit!
Oh weird! I ordered the shrike wings from Forgeworld after the new Warrior kit came out and they fit perfectly fine. Not sure why they'd remove them. Maybe re-doing?
First off I like to say I have loved this thread. I have Followed it from day one.
I am posting now as I am needing some help for a upcoming 2day tourney I am going to soon in Seattle. It is my first 2dy tourney and I want to have a great time.
I have posted some lists I am thinking about in the army list area and I thought I post a link here to see if I can get some advise from you all as well.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Alright boys, I have an issue for the hive. Lets see what comes of this. I have a good friend that I brought into the game on Dark Angels, and he has promptly brought in quite a few guardsman. Now unfortunately, he somehow got it into his head that hordes are these wonderful things, and decided to turn the guard into his version of my Tyranids. Like I said, completely out of nowhere idea. And he decided to fill his lovely massive infantry platoons full of flamers and flamer special weapon squads with a few grenade launcher squads in the rear. He also is working on 2 max size units of conscripts. I have also since learned that FRFSRF is very unpleasant en masse.
My hive fleet is being decimated and he likes to keep a tally of what he has burnt to a crisp. Here is a basic mapping of his army from when I helped him build it and keep it legal, if I remember it right.
3x PCS 6x Infantry squads w/ Flamer, Vox
2x SWS w/ Flamers
2x SWS w/ Grenade Launchers
2x HWS w/ Autocannons
50x Conscripts
1x Vendetta (Why did I buy him this for Christmas?)
1x Armored Sentinel
1x Chimera
1x Basilisk
1x Leman Russ
Anyone got any recommendations for taking out chunks of that infantry? I've got a few Mawlocs and Biovores, but they certainly aren't taking out enough before our lines hit. Also, that Vendetta is an obnoxious little bugger who likes to pick on my Carnifexes. Should I put a rush on finishing up my Flyrants or do I have some other options that could work for taking it out quickly?
Even your flyrants can do work against his infantry. Now I don't know how many flyrants you are running (or if any at all), but electroshock + 6 devourers can put a dent into his unit and you can do so relatively safely with your flyrants still swooping. With 2 or 3 flyrants, the damage becomes substantial whereas the threat of retaliation gets weaker. Most of his flashlights will be hitting and wounding on 6's anyways.
Then you've got mawlocs, biovores and hive crones to thin out the herd, so to speak. When firing biovores, make sure to center the blasts on important models like commissars and primaris psykers. Get rid of their stubborness/fearlessness/ability to cast Prescience/Perfect Timing/etc. The only time you will really have problems is if one of his psykers get Invisibility.
Try to get your flyrants to within Shadows range of his psykers and then watch as he starts failing his Perils tests.
Finally, don't forget your psychic powers. Powers such as Paroxysm can be very useful against the blob. If he doesn't have a commissar or Fearless guy in there, then the Horror can be quite good as well. Finally, if he is running multiple units, then Psychic Scream can be devastating if you can get your flyrants into the right place.
Lastly, you can take a tyrannocyte with 5 barbed strangler and put a tyrannofex with dual templates in it. That unit is devastating to a horde army.
Good luck!
Thanks for the tips. I am slow on the painting side of things. but I do have the 2 flyrants I got in an army lot. Never used them yet, since I haven't had a match in a long while that I can truly count as one that was at a decent point value. Then again, the more I look at my army, the more I am ashamed of it, in a sense.
I have something close to this if I remember right.
1 Harridan
1 Swarmlord
1 Walkrant?
2 Flyrants
2 Tyrant Guard
3-5 Tervigons
1 Deathleaper
1 Old One Eye
1 Zoanthrope
200 or so Termagants
200 or so Hormagaunts
120 or so Genestealers w/ Broodlords
40-50 Ripper Bases
30+ Warrior/Shrikes
30-40 Gargoyles
30+ Warrior/Shrikes
20 or so Spore Mines
2 Biovores
12 Carnifexes
2 Mawlocs
3 Tyrannofexes
So many gribblies, but I see the TMCs lacking luster and too little synaptic support.
pinecone77 wrote: I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...
I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.
pinecone77 wrote: I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...
I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.
Devourers on the skytyrant can help in several cases:
1. It can help whittle down 2+ save units. Normally, this unit may have problems against 2+ units.
2. It can help you to crack a transport so that you gargoyles have something to assault. The worst situation is if you assault a transport, get bunched up, and then eat some flamers afterwards.
3. It gives you something to do against flyers other than to just look menacingly at them.
4. It can help you to thin out huge blobs of gribblies. Electroshock grubs, devourers and gargoyle fleshborers can help to make units like the green tide, zombie hordes, 30-termagant/Tyranid gribblies, large gargoyle blocks and AM blob squads a little more manageable.
5. You can use it to shoot walkers in the butt (assuming you can position your flyrant there), because you really don't want to be assaulting walkers.
6. Most importantly, it gives your flyrant flexibility. You don't have to shoot with it if you don't want. You can always run. But without guns, then you can only run. You can't deal with as wide a range of threats because you just don't have the flexibility to do so.
Personally, I'd rather give up the +1A to have a little more flexibility for the unit.
Been running 4 flyrants with double pod dakka fex and 3 lictors.
I must admit I absolutely love Lictors for maelstorm games, to do all my back and midfield scoring while allowing my dakka beasts to focus on the frontlines.
so I finally gotten back into my ''nids, and finished re-re-painting my tyrant guard. anyone have any advice for using them? I was thinking of having them charge down the center (without the tyrant) of the board as a distraction.
Deshkar wrote: Been running 4 flyrants with double pod dakka fex and 3 lictors.
I must admit I absolutely love Lictors for maelstorm games, to do all my back and midfield scoring while allowing my dakka beasts to focus on the frontlines.
Yeah I love my Rippers for that reason. I would run Lictors but I utterly despise Finecast :/
jy2 wrote: Devourers on the skytyrant can help in several cases:
1. It can help whittle down 2+ save units. Normally, this unit may have problems against 2+ units.
Not as much as an extra CC Attack.
jy2 wrote: 2. It can help you to crack a transport so that you gargoyles have something to assault. The worst situation is if you assault a transport, get bunched up, and then eat some flamers afterwards.
I guess. One Devourer from a unit that is almost always going to be shooting at front armor doesn't seem worth it.
jy2 wrote: 3. It gives you something to do against flyers other than to just look menacingly at them.
Snap shooting one devourer at them? Once again, it isn't going to do much.
jy2 wrote: 4. It can help you to thin out huge blobs of gribblies. Electroshock grubs, devourers and gargoyle fleshborers can help to make units like the green tide, zombie hordes, 30-termagant/Tyranid gribblies, large gargoyle blocks and AM blob squads a little more manageable.
E. Grubs are a no-brainer becauses of #5, but one Devourer doesn't seem like it will make much difference.
jy2 wrote: 5. You can use it to shoot walkers in the butt (assuming you can position your flyrant there), because you really don't want to be assaulting walkers.
You won't get to back armor on walkers. Assaulting walkers with the blob isn't that big of a problem, unless they are super heavies. E.Grubs can take 1 Hull point, and then a Tyrant will be doing 1 or 2 a turn. Meanwhile the walkers will kill a Gargoyle or two. The only walkers you should be afraid assaulting are characters like Bjorn, or Super Heavies.
jy2 wrote: 6. Most importantly, it gives your flyrant flexibility. You don't have to shoot with it if you don't want. You can always run. But without guns, then you can only run. You can't deal with as wide a range of threats because you just don't have the flexibility to do so.
Personally, I'd rather give up the +1A to have a little more flexibility for the unit.
The problem is that it makes it much scarier assaulting close combat characters, because you are less reliable against Great Unclean Ones, Demon Princes, Wraith Knights, even Marine Chapter Masters. 1 attack increases you chance of getting that critical ID results when you need it by 20%. That one extra attack is also the difference between statistically Killing a Wave Serpent a turn in assault, and failing to do so. 2.4 Hull points vs 2.8.
If you feel like a Close Combat Tyrant isn't expensive enough, you could always give it Old Adversary.
badula wrote: i've noticed that FW doesn't sell shrikes' wings anymore.... anyone has some info about it?
It was mentioned in the FW releases thread I believe- they don't fit the new warrior kit. They pulled them until they can work out a solution.
seems i've missed that!
good news btw!^^
i DO hope for a plastic upgrade kit!
Oh weird! I ordered the shrike wings from Forgeworld after the new Warrior kit came out and they fit perfectly fine. Not sure why they'd remove them. Maybe re-doing?
jimmyp at the Hive spoke with someone at Forgeworld about the wings and had this to say:
Dec 4, 2014 16:49:19 GMT -6 jimmyp said:
Well I was at warhammer fest in uk and a guy at forgeworld who was the designer of the 30k imperial fists asked what I collected, I said tyranids and was interested in what is popular in my opinion. I said it's annoying that shrike wings are not about and was frustrating. He said that he knows that gw and FW are working on dedicated shrikes models instead of just add on wings to the plastic. They are busy on sculptures of 30k but next year 2015 they will do them because demand is high and the previous ones were bad fit etc.
not sure if correct or not but he seemed genuine
Holy cow, yet more formations and dataslates.
They seem not that great on their own but the formation combining all of the dataslates is pretty nice considering the Stealers and Cryptus gets shrouded.
saved them before the mods could get it. bingo. ahem, ahem. wow, that does look cool, it's unfortunate that we're not allowed to upload full things like that. saving them? what, no of coarse not. *shifty glance*
Redemption wrote: Stealth and Shrouded even. 2+ cover save even in area terrain.
Yeah, but what a tax! A Carnifex with STC and Bio Plasma + 15 points for IWND. 3 Warriors Clocking in at 170 points because of fixed wargear. All of the Genestealers have Scything Talons + that squad has an 11 point added cost to get stealth (well worth it, this one).
On the other hand. It actually isn't a bad "Starter" set for a potential tyranid player. It would be playable against a marine player with an equivalent set. Add a Venomthrope, some screening gargoyles and you've got yourself an army that would perform ok at low point levels.
badula wrote: i've noticed that FW doesn't sell shrikes' wings anymore.... anyone has some info about it?
It was mentioned in the FW releases thread I believe- they don't fit the new warrior kit. They pulled them until they can work out a solution.
seems i've missed that!
good news btw!^^
i DO hope for a plastic upgrade kit!
Oh weird! I ordered the shrike wings from Forgeworld after the new Warrior kit came out and they fit perfectly fine. Not sure why they'd remove them. Maybe re-doing?
jimmyp at the Hive spoke with someone at Forgeworld about the wings and had this to say:
Dec 4, 2014 16:49:19 GMT -6 jimmyp said:
Well I was at warhammer fest in uk and a guy at forgeworld who was the designer of the 30k imperial fists asked what I collected, I said tyranids and was interested in what is popular in my opinion. I said it's annoying that shrike wings are not about and was frustrating. He said that he knows that gw and FW are working on dedicated shrikes models instead of just add on wings to the plastic. They are busy on sculptures of 30k but next year 2015 they will do them because demand is high and the previous ones were bad fit etc.
not sure if correct or not but he seemed genuine
The rep informed me that they no longer fit the current Shrike models and have been withdrawn with no stock in the warehouses etc.
He said they would need a complete reworking of the master mould and most likely wouldnt be back in stock until the summer.
I guess one could infer that GW wont be releasing official Shrike models then?
Quite a refreshing conversation tbh, he was straight down the middle and seemed quite well informed.[/quote
Amishprn86 wrote: Would never take the warriors like that, nor the Fex.. its so sad, so much potential wasted (IMO).
Have you never played Stranglefexes?
I have 4 Strangler/Devourer Fexes...and what they really allow me to do is punish armies like Tau before I even enter the range of the bulk of their army.
At Adepticon Our Tyranid armies completely tabled two Taudar armies with these buddies...They did some work!
Another anecdote...they also gave us the massacre in our first game on a white scars army by piling wounds on them.
pinecone77 wrote: I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...
I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.
Somebody please explain it to me.
It's not so much helping the CC, it's giving more options. Like say scrubbing off bubblewrap, to get to the juicy center. Or shooting down a enemy flier...etc...It's not the end of the world to lose it. But it is a loss (of flexability)
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Redemption wrote: Just got my Deathstorm box in, took a quick scan of the units therein. Here's the nids:
Wow, very nice! This just might let Stealers return to regular play.
Played my Summoning star with allied Nids.
Allied Nids are so awesome, even when they are Apoc.
What I took had such a small footprint it was never issue even after summoning 600 points onto the board.
This combined with a Screamerstar was nice because I have decent movement and can summon literally all over the table unless the star is pinned down.
Taking allied Apoc Nids is very viable I feel. With a Flyrant and a Hive crone you have anti air covered plus a real shooting threat which is hard to get with Daemons.
The Crone + Flyrant is pretty much an expensive Daemon Prince.
I played against the Skytyrant and didn't really think much of it. I ate most of the Gargoyles with Daemonettes and the combat just got drawn out over multiple turns. I don't see the value in Skytyrant currently, its too easy for a lot of armies to strip away the ablative wounds. Perhaps not with 60 Gargoyles but that's getting a little expensive.
Ah, come on... 215 for 8 Scything Stealers, and a Broodlord that gives PE, And Stealth? I think that is pretty cool... And for around 550 you can take a big Formation, that gets PE for all, and grants stealth, if you have stealth, you get Shrouding. 550 is on the high side, but that is LAN + Dakkafex...a totally affordable thing...
If I read that right, that means the Spawns Brood are their own Veno, and they move through cover, etc....The Beast looks "OK", call me old fashioned, but I'd be happier with Twin Scything. Just looking, off the top of my head IWND looks like its very low costed....120+ Bio-plasma=140+ Strangler...160? That means IWND costs 10 points...That is a bargain.
The Warriors look like classic GW overkitted point sinks... Twin Glands? So gauche....
pinecone77 wrote: I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...
I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.
Somebody please explain it to me.
It's not so much helping the CC, it's giving more options. Like say scrubbing off bubblewrap, to get to the juicy center. Or shooting down a enemy flier...etc...It's not the end of the world to lose it. But it is a loss (of flexability)
If I take my Computer mouse and attack a butter knife to it, it will give me more options. When its time to spread some butter, I'm going to regret that decision.
When you say scrubbing off bubblewrap, what that means to me when talking about an assault based unit without fleet is taking yourself out of charge range. When you say shooting down an enemy flier, I'm even more confused. 6 TL shots without skyfire are not going to be threatening to the only fliers popular in the current meta (Night Scythes, Storm Ravens, Space Wolf fliers). Meanwhile you are removing an attack and adding 15 points for a gun that will fire perhaps once a game on a unit that is guaranteed to be the highest target priority of any enemy, that already starts out at sever major disadvantages compared to other assaulty deathstars (no fleet, No hit and run, no 2nd character to each challenges).
[Tangent]
I started running the numbers for Tyrants VS Knights in close combat. I was assuming Reaper of Obliterax (RoO). I thought Rending Claws (RC) gave you a bonus VS Knights, but they really, don't. But Old Adversary (OA) is a significant bonus. Bonus = Explodes bonus.
So, you should always smash against Imperial Knights, unless it has exactly 1 Hull point left. And Old Adversary makes you 16.67% more effective against Imperial Knights. I'm going to run the number of using Old Adversary instead of Shred (RoO) when facing Wraith Knights.
Redemption wrote: Stealth and Shrouded even. 2+ cover save even in area terrain.
Yeah, but what a tax! A Carnifex with STC and Bio Plasma + 15 points for IWND. 3 Warriors Clocking in at 170 points because of fixed wargear. All of the Genestealers have Scything Talons + that squad has an 11 point added cost to get stealth (well worth it, this one).
And for a unit that should already have shrouded most the time that it's relevant from a much less significant tax (Mope/Vope) this formation is just back to GW's poor writing. These formations are Skyblight-level restrictive combined with Malaceptor-level weak, they are just trying to push new models out the door. Had they not been so needlessly restrictive and decided they needed to pick absolutely every article of wargear for us, it might have just worked. Otherwise I guess I don't have to worry about being enticed into buying this trash at least until the time they make Carnifex w/Stranglethorn+Bioplasma an actual playable and worthwhile choice. This release is absolutely phoned in. Shame on you GW, you were doing so well.
Amishprn86 wrote: Would never take the warriors like that, nor the Fex.. its so sad, so much potential wasted (IMO).
Have you never played Stranglefexes?
I have 4 Strangler/Devourer Fexes...and what they really allow me to do is punish armies like Tau before I even enter the range of the bulk of their army.
At Adepticon Our Tyranid armies completely tabled two Taudar armies with these buddies...They did some work!
Another anecdote...they also gave us the massacre in our first game on a white scars army by piling wounds on them.
I have, Ive done many types of Fexs and they never suited be (might be my synergy with my lists) but I hate Strangle on fex's (Same for Venom cannons).
Here is some math on a Melee Tyrant VS. a Wraith Knight.
On the Charge with 2 CCWs
If the Wraith Knight charges you and you have 2 CCWs, or charging with 1 CCW.
Conclusion: Because Old Adversary makes you 16.67% more effective VS Imperial Knights and other AV 13 Walkers, and dropping RoO for BW+LW and Old Adversary only drops you effectiveness against High Toughness MC's by 6.67%, I think I'm going to start running my Melee Tyrants with BS + LW, STs, E.Grubs, and Old Adversary. Toxin Sac's aren't important if you have preferred enemy because you are IDing high toughness while wound on 2's most lower toughness.
Question: Does the +1 Strength from RoO make you more effective against AV12 walkers? Answer: Yes, substantially. You are roughly 20.54% better off against AV12 walkers with +1 Strength against AV12 Walkers. With my Melee Tyrant Build, I'm still going to want to Smash most of the time. Hopefully the E.Grubs soften them up a bit. You are roughly 20% better against AV11 vehicles as well, but the advantage drops to about 3% against AV 10 vehicles.
Question: What is the statistical chance of failing to ID an Imperial Knight? Answer: I've added a fail column with the percentage. You are 7.24% more likely to fail to ID a Wraith Knight in 1 Round of Combat with my wargear than with RoO. It is significant, but not enough to dissuade me.
Played against a Daemon summoning list tonight that had a dog star with Khorne herald plus three ML3 Nurgle princes (completely unbound, as he didn't bring enough troops to make it double CAD).
It was only a 1500 so I went obsec light and brought my Barbed Hierodule to see what it could do. Knew it would have only a few chances to get through 2+ cover before it would be assaulted and likely killed/tarpitted.
What I did not see coming was instant death-ing his warlord with only 3 hits through 2+ cover, then watching his second prince fail 3 out of five 2+ saves. That prince would then perils while attempting to cast a power on his first turn and die. We called the game after my second turn where the Barbed Hierodule instagibbed his last full wound prince, even though it scored only 3 hits since the prince had taken to the skies in an attempt to increase his survivability. 2+ just isn't what it's cracked up to be
Overall, more of an exercise in how much daemon princes hate strength 10 than anything else
L0rdF1end wrote: Played my Summoning star with allied Nids. Allied Nids are so awesome, even when they are Apoc. What I took had such a small footprint it was never issue even after summoning 600 points onto the board. This combined with a Screamerstar was nice because I have decent movement and can summon literally all over the table unless the star is pinned down.
Taking allied Apoc Nids is very viable I feel. With a Flyrant and a Hive crone you have anti air covered plus a real shooting threat which is hard to get with Daemons. The Crone + Flyrant is pretty much an expensive Daemon Prince.
I played against the Skytyrant and didn't really think much of it. I ate most of the Gargoyles with Daemonettes and the combat just got drawn out over multiple turns. I don't see the value in Skytyrant currently, its too easy for a lot of armies to strip away the ablative wounds. Perhaps not with 60 Gargoyles but that's getting a little expensive.
Cool to hear. I was actually hammering out a similar list last night, and will hopefully get to test it tomorrow. Might finally write a battle report like I've been meaning to do forever. Here's the list for shoots and googles:
pinecone77 wrote: I think it is fair to say the Reaper is "better", but it is a Lot more expensive (so it should be ) IK is a very useful "thing" but I believe you can run LW/BS, and Maw claws, you'd just give up Brain Leeches...
I don't understand why anyone would take one devourer on a Skytyrant tyrant. You are giving up one attack in close combat. If you aren't charging you should probably be running, and with fleet being such an expensive upgrade, anything that can take you out of charge range is terrifying. Its like putting BBQ Sauce on Ice Cream.
Somebody please explain it to me.
It's not so much helping the CC, it's giving more options. Like say scrubbing off bubblewrap, to get to the juicy center. Or shooting down a enemy flier...etc...It's not the end of the world to lose it. But it is a loss (of flexability)
If I take my Computer mouse and attack a butter knife to it, it will give me more options. When its time to spread some butter, I'm going to regret that decision.
When you say scrubbing off bubblewrap, what that means to me when talking about an assault based unit without fleet is taking yourself out of charge range. When you say shooting down an enemy flier, I'm even more confused. 6 TL shots without skyfire are not going to be threatening to the only fliers popular in the current meta (Night Scythes, Storm Ravens, Space Wolf fliers). Meanwhile you are removing an attack and adding 15 points for a gun that will fire perhaps once a game on a unit that is guaranteed to be the highest target priority of any enemy, that already starts out at sever major disadvantages compared to other assaulty deathstars (no fleet, No hit and run, no 2nd character to each challenges).
[Tangent]
I started running the numbers for Tyrants VS Knights in close combat. I was assuming Reaper of Obliterax (RoO). I thought Rending Claws (RC) gave you a bonus VS Knights, but they really, don't. But Old Adversary (OA) is a significant bonus. Bonus = Explodes bonus.
So, you should always smash against Imperial Knights, unless it has exactly 1 Hull point left. And Old Adversary makes you 16.67% more effective against Imperial Knights. I'm going to run the number of using Old Adversary instead of Shred (RoO) when facing Wraith Knights.
I guess I can see what you're saying. But I think you're overstating it. This is the internet, so "current meta" varies wildly based on where somebody is. I can see why you consider 6 shots on a flier pointless, but a small chance might be better than no chance. And it usually Is a mistake to shoot your self out of charge range, but if there is a squishy target, with a "Ista-killy special" standing near, I'd prefer to shoot it. And if I do want to go tangle with a bad mutha, well I don't want to stop and chat with some Nuglings first, I want them to clear a path. I sure don't see taking a second CC as a mistake. But I don't see keeping one's options open, as being a mistake.
The numbers do look pretty poor for charging a Knight. I'm guessing the preferred solution is Vetor Strike, Thorax Hive How do the numbers look with HOW added? (Or are they already added in?) I don't expect it adds much, but I thought Rending Claws would be a bigger help than it is...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote: Here is some math on a Melee Tyrant VS. a Wraith Knight.
On the Charge with 2 CCWs
If the Wraith Knight charges you and you have 2 CCWs, or charging with 1 CCW.
Conclusion: Because Old Adversary makes you 16.67% more effective VS Imperial Knights and other AV 13 Walkers, and dropping RoO for BW+LW and Old Adversary only drops you effectiveness against High Toughness MC's by 6.67%, I think I'm going to start running my Melee Tyrants with BS + LW, STs, E.Grubs, and Old Adversary. Toxin Sac's aren't important if you have preferred enemy because you are IDing high toughness while wound on 2's most lower toughness.
Question: Does the +1 Strength from RoO make you more effective against AV12 walkers?
Answer: Yes, substantially. You are roughly 20.54% better off against AV12 walkers with +1 Strength against AV12 Walkers. With my Melee Tyrant Build, I'm still going to want to Smash most of the time. Hopefully the E.Grubs soften them up a bit. You are roughly 20% better against AV11 vehicles as well, but the advantage drops to about 3% against AV 10 vehicles.
Question: What is the statistical chance of failing to ID an Imperial Knight?
Answer: I've added a fail column with the percentage. You are 7.24% more likely to fail to ID a Wraith Knight in 1 Round of Combat with my wargear than with RoO. It is significant, but not enough to dissuade me.
Very nice! Yeah, back when I was running Winged Assassin as a "go to" build, I used LW/BS, Toxic (and Electro-bugs, natch ), because it was cheaper. So I don't have much experience with Reaper. With the nurf to Toxic, and the need to handle AV, it does look like OA is a good way to go.
I'd guess that Toxic still provides value vs Chapter Masters and the like, but I think that Tarpitting is the better way to handle those bums. Besides we were talking SkyTyrant, and that has swarms of Gargoyles attached.
This battle report is not for the squeamish and includes scenes of swearing, foot-stomping, fist-waving and cruelty to mini's. (However, no actual mini's were harmed in the writing of this report.) If you are looking for a report which shows great narrative, fluffy battles, the finer side of gaming and great comraderie, then LEAVE NOW! If you are looking for no-holds-barred, hardcore, stomp-your-opponent-to-the-mud action, then continue. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
So there's been an influx of material/formations for Tyranids which, in my opinion, have just catapulted them from a middling army all the way up the stratosphere. Tyranids are no longer an afterthought of an army in competitive play. First with the release of the new Forgeworld Tyranid book and accompanying models, then with the release of a plethora of new models (that should have been included with the codex in the very first place!) and now with the release of the Shield of Baal supplement, Tyranids have just shot up the competitive ladder into top-tier territory. Yes, the newest supplement, the Shield of Baal, will be a meta-changing release as it has just injected another top-tier build to the tournament scene.
So why is this book so meta-changing? Because you can run both a normal detachment and the Shield of Baal Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment. What this does is it now allows you to take up to 5 flyrants in tournament play. This is possible for 2 reasons. Firstly, the normal detachment allows you to take 2 HQ's and the Leviathan detachment allows you to take 3 HQ's! Secondly, GW recently released a new troop choice called the Mucolid. This unit satisfies 1 troop slot....for only 15-pts!!! So in a normal + Leviathan detachment, you can fulfill the minimum 5 troop requirements to run this configuration for only a total of 75-pts!!! What the f*ck was GW thinking?!? Only 75-pts to be able to run 5 HQ's (in other words, 5 flyrants)?!?
My hypothesis is that a 5-flyrant list (which I shall call a Pentyrant Tyranid build) is over-powering to most of the armies out there. Tyranids were strong before, but they've always had trouble against the top tournament builds. Well, now the shoe is on the other foot. A pentyrant build is so strong that even other top, tournament armies will have trouble against it. Yes, pentyrant armies will be changing the meta once again. You better bring a lot of skyfire to your Take-All-Comer's tournament list, because if you don't, then you won't be able to handle such an army.
My opponent for this game is my friend and GT-winner, Grant aka "Grant Theft Auto" aka "GTA". He normally runs the seer council, but currently he is testing out a new Eldar army using the Forgeworld super-heavy, the Lynx. He is also trying a new build - he is bringing the Tyrannic War Veterans formation to help shore up a traditional weakness of Eldar, their anti-air. He's only had 2 games so far with his latest army. Both games were against Geoff "InControl" and his triple-flyrant/Swarmlord/Barbed Hierodule tournament Tyranid army. And Grant was able to win both of those games. So I know his list can handle up to 3 flyrants and a gargantuan. However, he's going up against what I feel just may be the quintessential Tyranid build. I hope he's ready for the spanking that I am going to give to his army, because that's what this game is going to be....a rude awakening.
1. Hold Either Objective 1.
2. Hold Either Objective 2.
3. Destroy an enemy unit.
4. Destroy an enemy unit.
5. Have a scoring unit at least partially within the enemy deployment zone.
6. Have at least 3 of your scoring units and no enemy scoring units at least partially within your own deployment zone.
Tertiary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, 1-pt each
pinecone77 wrote: I'd guess that Toxic still provides value vs Chapter Masters and the like, but I think that Tarpitting is the better way to handle those bums. Besides we were talking SkyTyrant, and that has swarms of Gargoyles attached.
Unless the Chapter Master is on a Bike (T5) Toxin Sac's don't help you at all compared to Old Adversary. You wound on a 2+ and are rerolling ones. Against a Chapter Master on a Bike, you are still better off with Old Advesary, rather than Toxin Sacs, but the difference is very small.
Toxin Sac's aren't a bad choice, but unless you are facing a very T6+ multi-wound model with Eternal Warrior, you are better off with an extra 5 points for Old Adversary.
Deshkar wrote: Been running 4 flyrants with double pod dakka fex and 3 lictors.
I must admit I absolutely love Lictors for maelstorm games, to do all my back and midfield scoring while allowing my dakka beasts to focus on the frontlines.
Yeah, it's a strong list. With quad-tyrants, anything else you add after that is like gravy.
the shrouded lord wrote: so I finally gotten back into my ''nids, and finished re-re-painting my tyrant guard. anyone have any advice for using them? I was thinking of having them charge down the center (without the tyrant) of the board as a distraction.
You can give them crushing claws and watch them surprise your opponent when they run into a tank. Just make sure you add other "threats" in the army to take the heat off of those tyrant guards.
Redemption wrote: Just got my Deathstorm box in, took a quick scan of the units therein. Here's the nids:
Redemption, you may want to consider putting those scans in spoilers before they get taken down. It also helps to unclutter the thread.
L0rdF1end wrote: Played my Summoning star with allied Nids.
Allied Nids are so awesome, even when they are Apoc.
What I took had such a small footprint it was never issue even after summoning 600 points onto the board.
This combined with a Screamerstar was nice because I have decent movement and can summon literally all over the table unless the star is pinned down.
Taking allied Apoc Nids is very viable I feel. With a Flyrant and a Hive crone you have anti air covered plus a real shooting threat which is hard to get with Daemons.
The Crone + Flyrant is pretty much an expensive Daemon Prince.
I played against the Skytyrant and didn't really think much of it. I ate most of the Gargoyles with Daemonettes and the combat just got drawn out over multiple turns. I don't see the value in Skytyrant currently, its too easy for a lot of armies to strip away the ablative wounds. Perhaps not with 60 Gargoyles but that's getting a little expensive.
You think this is good, wait til you try running Daemons with the Leviathan formation! Goodness! Leviathan has just opened up so many excellent builds. The only problem is that they are so good that you are going to see a lot of other armies now run the Leviathan formation as well!
Skytyrant is turning out to be better than I thought, especially when run by a savvy veteran. Don't write them off yet, especially against Daemons. They have a massive footprint and if you're not careful, the Tyranid player can force death through multi-assaults and Daemonic Instability. Anyways, I am going to test out the Skytyrant formation some more.
L0rdF1end wrote: Played my Summoning star with allied Nids.
Allied Nids are so awesome, even when they are Apoc.
What I took had such a small footprint it was never issue even after summoning 600 points onto the board.
This combined with a Screamerstar was nice because I have decent movement and can summon literally all over the table unless the star is pinned down.
Taking allied Apoc Nids is very viable I feel. With a Flyrant and a Hive crone you have anti air covered plus a real shooting threat which is hard to get with Daemons.
The Crone + Flyrant is pretty much an expensive Daemon Prince.
I played against the Skytyrant and didn't really think much of it. I ate most of the Gargoyles with Daemonettes and the combat just got drawn out over multiple turns. I don't see the value in Skytyrant currently, its too easy for a lot of armies to strip away the ablative wounds. Perhaps not with 60 Gargoyles but that's getting a little expensive.
Cool to hear. I was actually hammering out a similar list last night, and will hopefully get to test it tomorrow. Might finally write a battle report like I've been meaning to do forever. Here's the list for shoots and googles:
Still torn on whether or not to do basically the same thing except with LoC and Tzeentch Prince, but I like the 2+ jink, ID, and the high T of the GUO
I've messed about with the 2+ jink quite a bit, it's good but not fantastic, too much ignore cover around, also Screamer star needs Fateweaver to make it reliable.
I think the only way to do it and make it competitive in current meta is to go daemons primary. Most tournaments I go to aren't 2 CADS, normally 1 CAD + Ally/Formation.
Ok, this is just a brief overview and my opinion of the new Deathstorm Tyranid formations:
Spoiler:
Children of Cryptus:B
This formation can actually be quite good as long as you surround it with complementary units. DO NOT run them as a solitary threat. They really don't have the durability to survive focused enemy firepower. However, run them in a Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) type of list and they may actually surprise you. If left unchecked, they can devastate your opponent's army. Right now, they may have the element of surprise, but once your opponent plays them even once, he's going to go after them. Stealth and Prefered Enemy makes them really good.
I can see myself running this formation. Look for it in future battle reports.
Phodian Hive Warriors:D
Bah! Just what we don't need. Another close combat specialist unit that is slow as heck. But at 170-pt for the unit and 255-pts with the pod, they are a huge points investment for a unit that most likely won't ever make back their points. The problems with this unit are many. Being T4 with only 4+ saves, they also lack the resiliency to survive prolonged enemy fire. The only viable way to run them is by putting them in a tyrannocyte and in a MTO type of list. Also, they cannot deal with transports reliably, which in essence makes them cannon fodder. The unit is small so it makes it much harder for them to pull off multi-assaults (that is how you can survive against MSU units - by staying locked in combat). Their volume of attacks are too little compared to other assault units out there at around the same cost. The only time I would even consider running this formation is as a tax in order to run the Phodian Annihilation Swarm.
The Beast of Phodia:C
Not a great formation, but it is passable. Personally, I would not run this formation by itself, but as part of the better Phodian Annihilation Swarm. The BoP (Beast of Phodia) does have value in a Tyranid army as mainly a anti-horde support and as a carnifex, he is always a threat to any and all vehicles. He is somewhat pricey, but not much more so than a similarly-configured carnifex (just 10-pt more for It Will Not Die). Put him in a tyrannocyte and now you've got options with how you want to run him.
Phodian Annihilation Swarm:B-
I actually like this formation. Stealth/shroud and Prefered Enemy for all the units in the formation? What's not to like about that? The true gem here are infiltrating genestealers with Shroud and Prefered Enemy. However, the price you pay for the formation is rather steep. You have to take the near-worthless Hive Warriors formation and the mediocre Beast of Phodia, and to make them actually work, you need to consider spending points to get 1-2 tyrannocyte spores as well. If you build your Tyranid army to support this formation, you could find them doing well. Otherwise, they won't make back their costs. Now I would have actually rated this formation higher, but the steepness of its price and the tax of one of its formations is what prevents me from recommending this formation with flying colors.
Since people have been getting info on their list here I'll do the same.
I like to get some feed back on it which list is more competitive. I am taking one of these list to tshift in seattle. Incontroll, Jy2, and some other good players are showing up. And I like to make a respectable showing and even have a chance to stomp one or more of them
This list gives me some great shooting options. The Lan is a proven formation that works well. With the Barbed Hierodule opening tanks and the like I should have a target rich envierment for the LAN and the tyrants. The Droppoding Fex’s will alow me t put pressure in areas I need to. I like the concept of this list but I have yet to play test it.
What would I have to worry about with this list? Is the lack of bubble wrap a concern?
Barbed Hierodule (565pts)
This list lets me hold obj. better and still hits like a tone of bricks. With the crone helping out it should handle IK and Serpent spam well I think.
I do play aggressive. The first list is better at playing a Trapdoor style. While list 2 is a kind of all or nothing style. Thoughts or ideas on how to improve or what list would give me fits are always welcome//needed
Ok, the weekend is here, so I'm taking a quick break from finals studying to write another review:
Tyrannofex (by jifel)
Spoiler:
The Tyrannofex is traditionally one of the less appreciated Heavy Support choices, and yet has received a huge boost from the new inclusion of the Tyrannocyte. His role is that of a tank, as he will be the toughest bug on the table that doesn't fill a LOW slot. T6 and 6 wounds are all fun, but the true value of the TFex is in his 2+ armor save, the only one available in the Tyranid codex. For a dollar and three quarters, he comes base with a strength 6 ap 4 Torrent flamer and 4 strength 5, ap 4 shots at 18". Although he has decent firepower, great for clearing out infantry, he doesn't pack a massive punch for his points. However, he does have several good upgrades that I consider great values.
Electroshock Grubs: First off, he can buy Electroshock Grubs for the same price as a Meltagun, a fantastic deal that gives him respectable anti vehicle firepower (thanks to Haywire) without detracting at all from his Anti Infantry firepower, as it is still a Flame Template at Strength and AP 5, and therefore will threaten plenty of troops.
Shreddershard Beetles: Again, flame templates are good as they add to his role, and rending helps vs low saves, but it has less versatility than EG as it can't really do much to vehicles.
Dessicator Larvae: Wounding on a 2+ is great, but again this takes away from his versatility. The TFex doesn't really need more anti infantry power, but threatening vehicles is nice, so I hate to buy anything else.
Adrenal Glands: For 15 points I would also consider adding Adrenal Glands to him, as he will often be running early to get in range of his guns, and also it gives him much better anti vehicle power in assault. The TFex is not particularly impressive as an assault beast, but the basic TMC statline plus a tough armor save means he can tie up and eventually chew through most basic units in the game. Still, I would keep him away from some of the beefier units in the game, especially those with AP 2. But, the strength 7 on the charge, with 4 attacks, is enough to cripple or kill most Rear AV 10 vehicles, averaging about 2 Hull points, with AP 2 giving explosion potential. Combined with his Haywire template, he can easily threaten anything with an Armor Value.
Toxin Sacks: Poison for a Melta in points isn't bad at all, but is hardly needed. He doesn't have enough attacks to threaten a High toughness beast with this, and rerolling ones isn't woth the points against small things. Thanks to the 7th edition poison nerf I would say this upgrade is very unnecessary.
Regeneration: The final upgrade I would consider for him is Regeneration. Although it is pricey, the TFex is our toughest MC and is the least likely to be killed in a single turn, making him the most likely bug to use Regen and therefore the best to put it on. I wouldn't say it is required at all, but if you want your TFex to draw fire it is a good way to ensure he sticks around for a while.
Acid Blood: As is the usual, this upgrade is overpriced and rarely useful. Most of his lost wounds will come from shooting as he will rarely see combat, and even then a single hit will rarely help against something beefy enough to take down a Tyrannofex. Pass!
Rupture Cannon: For slightly less than a Rhino, you can replace his Flamer template with a 2 shot Strength 10, ap 4 gun at 48" range. As you can imagine, this changes his role drastically from anti infantry boss to long ranged anti vehicle. It's a nice idea, but at BS 3 I would honestly pass on this. Most of the Tyranid "good" units these days rely on closing with the enemy and overwhelming them with threats, and so I would try to use the TFex in a role to support that instead of as a gunline unit. He can remove hullpoints but the poor AP means he can't kill tough units or blow up vehicles, and there are much more efficient ways to strip Hull Points for Nids, thanks to their abundance of Haywire weaponry.
Fleshborer Hive: For a measly nickel, you can replace the Acid Spray with 20 fleshborer shots. Although "20 shots" sounds nice, it really isn't. An average of 10 hits at 12" range, strength 4 ap 5, or a torrent flamer with better strength, ap and ignores cover? I know what I want to take. The fleshborer hive is just laughably outclassed as it relies on the poor BS of a TFex to function. It kills 1.67 marines on average, while the Acid Spray gets the same results if it hits 6 marines (manageable with Torrent) and is better against 4+ saves, ignores cover, and is longer range. Avoid this one.
Finally, a Tyannofex may be put in a Tyrannocyte, our new Drop Pod. Personally I think this is an excellent choice as it allows him to get upfield fast, and he may be positioned where his weapons will work best and their short range isn't a problem. With 2 flamer templates with EG, he can murder light squads or can do some damage to vehicles (especially those damn wave Serpents...). Then, he becomes an in-your-face threat that is very tough to remove and has some decent assault ability, which makes him a great distraction unit.
Grades: A- (in a Pod, with EG) B- (on foot) D+ (on foot with Rupture Cannon) F (Fleshborer Hive)
Ok, this is just a brief overview and my opinion of the new Deathstorm Tyranid formations:
Spoiler:
Children of Cryptus:B
This formation can actually be quite good as long as you surround it with complementary units. DO NOT run them as a solitary threat. They really don't have the durability to survive focused enemy firepower. However, run them in a Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) type of list and they may actually surprise you. If left unchecked, they can devastate your opponent's army. Right now, they may have the element of surprise, but once your opponent plays them even once, he's going to go after them. Stealth and Prefered Enemy makes them really good.
I can see myself running this formation. Look for it in future battle reports.
Phodian Hive Warriors:D
Bah! Just what we don't need. Another close combat specialist unit that is slow as heck. But at 170-pt for the unit and 255-pts with the pod, they are a huge points investment for a unit that most likely won't ever make back their points. The problems with this unit are many. Being T4 with only 4+ saves, they also lack the resiliency to survive prolonged enemy fire. The only viable way to run them is by putting them in a tyrannocyte and in a MTO type of list. Also, they cannot deal with transports reliably, which in essence makes them cannon fodder. The unit is small so it makes it much harder for them to pull off multi-assaults (that is how you can survive against MSU units - by staying locked in combat). Their volume of attacks are too little compared to other assault units out there at around the same cost. The only time I would even consider running this formation is as a tax in order to run the Phodian Annihilation Swarm.
The Beast of Phodia:C
Not a great formation, but it is passable. Personally, I would not run this formation by itself, but as part of the better Phodian Annihilation Swarm. The BoP (Beast of Phodia) does have value in a Tyranid army as mainly a anti-horde support and as a carnifex, he is always a threat to any and all vehicles. He is somewhat pricey, but not much more so than a similarly-configured carnifex (just 10-pt more for It Will Not Die). Put him in a tyrannocyte and now you've got options with how you want to run him.
Phodian Annihilation Swarm:B-
I actually like this formation. Stealth/shroud and Prefered Enemy for all the units in the formation? What's not to like about that? The true gem here are infiltrating genestealers with Shroud and Prefered Enemy. However, the price you pay for the formation is rather steep. You have to take the near-worthless Hive Warriors formation and the mediocre Beast of Phodia, and to make them actually work, you need to consider spending points to get 1-2 tyrannocyte spores as well. If you build your Tyranid army to support this formation, you could find them doing well. Otherwise, they won't make back their costs. Now I would have actually rated this formation higher, but the steepness of its price and the tax of one of its formations is what prevents me from recommending this formation with flying colors.
Nice! I agree with all points, clearly a work of Genius! One minor nit-pick, you should mention the special rule the over kitted Warriors get "Infested Ruins" rather than "pod" the bums, I would just park them in a Ruin, hopefully with an Objective they can secure, and hope someone is fool enough to go after them. They'd still get Stealth from the Mondo Formation, so they would be pretty dang durable.
Nice! I agree with all points, clearly a work of Genius! One minor nit-pick, you should mention the special rule the over kitted Warriors get "Infested Ruins" rather than "pod" the bums, I would just park them in a Ruin, hopefully with an Objective they can secure, and hope someone is fool enough to go after them. They'd still get Stealth from the Mondo Formation, so they would be pretty dang durable.
Thanks.
170-pt is too expensive a unit to just babysit an objective with. And if you do that, then you are wasting one of the most valuble assets of this unit - the ability to assault through ruins at full Initiative. The Infested Ruins special rule really isn't a big deal to me. MC's don't care, nor do units with Move Through Cover. Vehicles and jump infantry/bikes/cavalry already treat terrain as dangerous anyways. The units most affected by this are infantry units who would probably rather just stay in cover anyways.
Now if the Phodian Hive Warriors had a special rule which would let them infiltrate inside any ruins, then we're talking.
I guess another good thing about the Children of Cryptus is that you have to use them as Warlord to get PE - meaning your opponent doesn't StW by shooting down a flyrant. Only problem is it is a bit pricier than the minimum StW denial unit (5 genes and brood for 130). But it has the benefit of being a fairly nasty combat threat (though that goes against StW denial..), and guaranteeing a useful trait as opposed to risking some of the dreadful ones. Anyway, basically I'm pleased to have a use for the 8 ST genes I got very cheap off a friend xD.
Anyway, thanks for the commentary on Reaper VS Maw-claws on the Skytyrant! I have a few more queries.
I'm getting a few more Warrior broods soon and am unsure how to equip the few I will be kitting out with LWBS or RC - basically do I keep the Devourer or swap to ST for the bonus attack? I'm leaning towards Devourers, as I don't plan to shell out for AG (mostly since I'll be running them in a couple of different ways and won't always want it), they might be getting their BS buffed by a Prime, and because I figure Shrikes are a better bet for Assaulty "Warriors". But anything from people with experience trying them is appreciated.
As an aside (unsure if this is the best place to ask) - do the units in my Endless Swarm formation actually get Obj Secured? I'd read online that they do - but upon reading the formations sections in the rulebook I can't see anything that indicates that they would: command benefits seem to only apply to units in the Warlord's detachment?
jifel wrote: Ok, the weekend is here, so I'm taking a quick break from finals studying to write another review:
Tyrannofex (by jifel)
C+ (on foot with Rupture Cannon)
I'm with you all the way until here. If anything is deserving of an F, it is sure the Malaceptor. But if 2 things deserve an F it is the Malaceptor and the Rupture Cannon TFex. 205 points for a model that hits once per turn at S10 AP4 without ignore cover? Awful.
I had 2 interesting games today. Playing a few guys that haven't beat me in quite some time, and so I was looking for a creative way to tank a couple of games. I settled on the concept of Warrior Spam, and then took that a littler farther, and decided to play only T4 models with multiple wounds.
My 2000 point List:
Spoiler:
Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Maw Claws, AG, FHs, Regen, Toxin Sacs) <- Only model not T4
5 Raveners (Devourers, RCs)
6 Raveners (Deathspitters, RCs)
6 Shrikes (2 with BS + LW + STs, 4 with Devourer + RCs, All had FHs, AGs)
Deathleapers Assassin Brood.
Death Leaper
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Game 1:
Spoiler:
A Tau gunline list that included 1 Ion Tide, 5 large groups of fire warriors, 2 squads of pathfinders, 2 Devilfish, Aegis + Comms, Farsight + Suites deepstriking, and 3 Plasma Suites Deep Striking.
I rolled master of Ambush, and infiltrated the Prime + Warriors, the Venoms, and 2 Zoeys. The Lictors all infiltrated as well. I got first turn and shot up some fire warriors, and managed to kill a squad of pathfinders for 1st blood. Generally I descended on his corner hoping to assault on turn 2.
In his turn he killed 7 of the 8 warriors with the prime, a Zoey, and a Lictor. My turn, I pulled off a massive, massive assault chaining. Grabbing 4 Sqauds of Fire Warriors, a Devilfish, the Riptide, and a Squad of pathfinders. Everything in his army was locked in CC except for the squad of fire warriors that was still embarked in a Devilfish, and the units in reserves. I killed him off his Comms Relay, and only the 3 Suits came in. We were headed for a turn 4 tabling when he conceded.
Tyranid Overwhelming Victory
Game 2:
Spoiler:
The Deathstorm Blood Angels formation with a Grey Knight detachment, and a Space wolf ally. The Grey knights had 7 psilencers spread out over 5 units, including 2 Heavy psilencers on the Nemisis Dread Knight. Also a Dreadnought, and 5 Longfangs shooting Missiles.
I knew from the start that this game was going to go bad for me. Way, Way, Way too much S8+ and Force for my 3 wound T4 list. He tailored to me, and I'm actually somewhat proud of how effectively he did it, I've been working hard trying to teach him how to build an effective list, and this list was not optimized, but very good against what I was bringing.
It was Big Guns, with Hammer and Anvil deployment. Turn 1 I advanced, but only manage to kill 2 long fangs with shooting. I also made a tactical deployment error by deep striking my Lictors. I should have started them on the table. In his turn 1 he managed a 10 inch charge with the Dreadnought into my Shrikes, then the Deathcompany came in. I rolled absolutely abysmally, and lost all of the Shrikes while only killing one Deathcompany.
In my Turn 2 only 2 Lictors came in. They popped the Dreadnought. I charged a Dreadknight with the raveners and did 7 Rends, but he made 4 4+ invuls, and then killed 4 Raveners. My other group of Raveners mixed it up with a big squad of grey Knights, and eventually they more or less killed eachother. Everything that could shot at the Grey Knight Terminators, and did a ton of wounds. 20+, he made all of his 2+ saves, and so I chickened out and didn't assault. On his turn he killed everything but my warriors, and the lictors in reserve. Turn 4, the warriors died, and all I had left were 3 Lictors, but I still had a chance because he was way out of position. I needed 1 Lictor to kill 2 Longfangs in assault, and 1 Lictor to kill 4 Blood claws in assault, and 1 Lictor to take the final wound from a dreadknight. Unfortunately, the Longfangs managed to take the last wound off the lictor in assault, and the Dreadknight made his 4++, so I was left with only 2 Lictors on the board and Conceded.
Rules question: Can a Shrike with Flesh Hooks use them in Assault against a Dreadnought? If so, do I get 1 attack or 2?
jifel wrote: Ok, the weekend is here, so I'm taking a quick break from finals studying to write another review:
Tyrannofex (by jifel)
C+ (on foot with Rupture Cannon)
I'm with you all the way until here. If anything is deserving of an F, it is sure the Malaceptor. But if 2 things deserve an F it is the Malaceptor and the Rupture Cannon TFex. 205 points for a model that hits once per turn at S10 AP4 without ignore cover? Awful.
Not that I disagree with the F grading but the Rupture Cannon is assault 2. I assume you were just going off the fact that the Tyrannofex is BS3 though? Also there are plenty of other grades that are more poorly thought out than that one. The Sky-Slashers are a prime example.
jifel wrote: Ok, the weekend is here, so I'm taking a quick break from finals studying to write another review:
Tyrannofex (by jifel)
C+ (on foot with Rupture Cannon)
I'm with you all the way until here. If anything is deserving of an F, it is sure the Malaceptor. But if 2 things deserve an F it is the Malaceptor and the Rupture Cannon TFex. 205 points for a model that hits once per turn at S10 AP4 without ignore cover? Awful.
Not that I disagree with the F grading but the Rupture Cannon is assault 2. I assume you were just going off the fact that the Tyrannofex is BS3 though? Also there are plenty of other grades that are more poorly thought out than that one. The Sky-Slashers are a prime example.
L0rdF1end wrote: Played my Summoning star with allied Nids.
Allied Nids are so awesome, even when they are Apoc.
What I took had such a small footprint it was never issue even after summoning 600 points onto the board.
This combined with a Screamerstar was nice because I have decent movement and can summon literally all over the table unless the star is pinned down.
Taking allied Apoc Nids is very viable I feel. With a Flyrant and a Hive crone you have anti air covered plus a real shooting threat which is hard to get with Daemons.
The Crone + Flyrant is pretty much an expensive Daemon Prince.
I played against the Skytyrant and didn't really think much of it. I ate most of the Gargoyles with Daemonettes and the combat just got drawn out over multiple turns. I don't see the value in Skytyrant currently, its too easy for a lot of armies to strip away the ablative wounds. Perhaps not with 60 Gargoyles but that's getting a little expensive.
Cool to hear. I was actually hammering out a similar list last night, and will hopefully get to test it tomorrow. Might finally write a battle report like I've been meaning to do forever. Here's the list for shoots and googles:
Still torn on whether or not to do basically the same thing except with LoC and Tzeentch Prince, but I like the 2+ jink, ID, and the high T of the GUO
I've messed about with the 2+ jink quite a bit, it's good but not fantastic, too much ignore cover around, also Screamer star needs Fateweaver to make it reliable.
I think the only way to do it and make it competitive in current meta is to go daemons primary. Most tournaments I go to aren't 2 CADS, normally 1 CAD + Ally/Formation.
It's tournament legal for most until if/when TO's start ruling that Hive Fleet Leviathan counts as a CAD or something along those lines. It's basically the same way straight Tyranid lists are getting five Flyrants.
I played this list today against Grey Knights/Space Wolves with drop podding Purifiers. My opponent brought 2 10 man Purifier squads with 2 incinerators each, an 8 man Purifer squad with a ML3 libby all in pods, 2 Grey Hunter squads with a Rune Priest in pods, a min Strike Squad, and a Dreadknight. Turns out he had a 2000 pt list to my 1850, but it was nobody's fault. Neither of us really asked as the game was a wee rushed to start with.
He had first turn and dropped in a combat squadded Purifier unit, the Purifiers with his Libby and a Grey Hunter pod. All the Purifiers landed near my GUO and ScreamerStar, fortunately the Grey Hunters scattered far enough back to bring their full weight to bear. DK shunted forward. It looked bad, but fortunately all the Cleansing Flames he popped off were able to be denied as I was denying on a 4+ and had plenty of dice to throw(targeting ML3 psykers with PsyShooting/Maledictions a'int exactly gonna go your way ). Incinerators and massed bolter fire did put a dent in the ScreamerStar though.
The Flyrants which I had put in a corner away from any objectives leapt in to the air and took out one 5 man Purifier combat squad and put a dent in the 8 man unit. Unfortunately the 8 man unit failed their morale check and fell back making it impossible for my GUO to make what was otherwise a guaranteed charge (he had Iron Arm, Endurance AND Warp Speed that turn ). Nurgle Prince made it into combat with his Grey Hunters and killed a few.
Turn 2, his last purifier squad comes in behind my screamers (who now have 3++ rerolling 1s) and pretty much finish neutering them. Nurgle Prince finishes off Grey Hunters this turn and flyrants continue to merk mehreens. Don't know why he thought his Dreadknight could tango with a buffed GUO but he charges it. I whiff first round of combat, but end up killing it in my turn. Nurgle Prince finishes off Grey Hunters in my turn as well. I had the Mucolids, Nurglings, and Horrors all in reserve and they all came in this turn. All mucolids mishap, one dies, two go into ongoing reserve, and the horrors and nurglings scatter away from their objectives. Meh, deepstrike.
Turn 3, he finishes off my ScreamerStar in his shooting phase and assaults the Nurgle Prince with 5 Purifiers who have Force. Nurgle Prince responds by eating them. He shuffles around a bit but only his Strike squad sits on an objective. Flyrants continue to do what they do and just dakka away. Nurglings grab an objective as well as the Nurgle Prince. We had to call it here due to time. I would have liked to see it play it to the bitter end, as I feel it would have been a close game.
All in all I think the list is pretty good. It performed admirably, especially considering the points deficit. Flyrants just cover so much of what Daemons lack without exposing any further weaknesses. That said, it could definitely use a few tweaks though, and I need more experience running it. A few thoughts:
-First off, the Screamerstar did almost nothing this game, which was frustrating. I didn't roll Cursed Earth, so no 2++ cheese. It was also the prime target of his alpha strike, so it was difficult to play them aggressively after taking heavy casualties. In other lists I have no problem summoning with this unit, but I found I was throwing so many dice at keeping the GUO and Nurgle Prince alive that I just didn't have the Warp Charges. This is partially due to the fact that I was expending more warp charges per power than I normally would since he so many denial dice. Also I kind of just had too many buffs to work with (I rolled Iron Arm, Endurance, and Warp Speed on BOTH of my Nurgle baddies. . . talk about picking your powers).
-A little bit more ObSec would have been nice. Might try to find points to replace a Mucolid with some Rippers.
-Flyrants are awesome (duh.) and the Nurgle Princes compliment them really well with their ability to kill just about any other MC in the game. With impunity if you roll up Warp Speed.
jifel wrote: Ok, the weekend is here, so I'm taking a quick break from finals studying to write another review:
Tyrannofex (by jifel)
C+ (on foot with Rupture Cannon)
I'm with you all the way until here. If anything is deserving of an F, it is sure the Malaceptor. But if 2 things deserve an F it is the Malaceptor and the Rupture Cannon TFex. 205 points for a model that hits once per turn at S10 AP4 without ignore cover? Awful.
I fully understand that view, and I guess relative to some other grades I would agree that a C+ may be too high. But, it does fill a role that nothing else in our army does, even if it does it poorly. I may bump it down to a D, but I will say that it does not deserve an F, simply because the Fleshborer Hive exists.
Hey all, so I've been out of the Nid game for a couple months, but I've been swiftly pulled back by the influx of amazing new goodies.
I know of the Lictor list that won the GT, but I still am not quite sure as to what value Lictors are bringing to lists. Especially in the sort of list that jy2 posted earlier with the 5 Flyrants. Can anyone enlighten me?
Hey all, so I've been out of the Nid game for a couple months, but I've been swiftly pulled back by the influx of amazing new goodies.
I know of the Lictor list that won the GT, but I still am not quite sure as to what value Lictors are bringing to lists. Especially in the sort of list that jy2 posted earlier with the 5 Flyrants. Can anyone enlighten me?
Im a HUGE believer in list synergy. Everyone knows of the easy synergies, like Lictor + Mawloc.
The hard park to look at is Threat, To me there are multi types of threats, 1 is Killing power, Stopping power and Object Sec. A Tervigon does well (as a troop) for both Stopping power and Object Sec, it can sit on a point and still send Tar-pit units out.
I feel a Good list needs to synergies with these 3.
The Rippers + DS or Mucolids are small and easy to kill, but they are very cheap easy ways to get an objectives, with DS it makes it even easier. The threat they pose is Object Sec.
Dakka Flyrants can doKilling and Stopping (Depending on set up and what they fight) If you put a tryrant against 15 guardsman he will stay in CC and not die, can Melee things down easy (like light tanks) also can put out alot of fire power.
Lictors do alittle of all 3, But I feel they do more of Object Sec and a havoc unit. But having the special rules, it can synergies with a mawloc (Im not a fan of it personally) BUT better yet it can get a 2+/3+ Cover save easily, can DS and Infilitrate close to Objectives or put pressure on a unit.
Having MSU of Lictors in better than a large unit of 3 (IMO) they can hit different targets and take more objectives, with good place mean you can get 1 in front a unnit and another behind.
Overwatch - If your in ruins (and about 8-12" away) you can take over watch with a 2+ cover save, with fleet and Move through Cover it will get there, so they have to shoot snapshot at a 2+ cover or, risk not getting a Overwatch.
Taking 2 CADs/1cad+ally/new BAAL Cad+Codex what ever you want, get 4 HQ's
4 Dakka Flyrants
3 Lictors (Units of 1)
2 Venoms (unit of 1 or 2)
3 Mucolid
3 DS Rippers
3 mawlocs
Fort + coms
1760pts total
(5pts over to take a Bastion+coms, can swap a Ripper for Mucolid or take wall + coms)
If looking at a list like this, 4 Flyrants running around poses a HUGE THREAT, Rippers/mucolids will take objects, with lictors being placed where you need, hitting the rear, beacon the mawlocs, killing small units you need taken out (Like 5 man unit of pathfinders). etc...
There are better list and better ways to show Synergy, just a fast example.
One thing about gants, they are Slow, and hard to get ot Objectives, they are harder to hind in cover as well, cost more and will die just as easy.
jifel wrote: Ok, the weekend is here, so I'm taking a quick break from finals studying to write another review:
Tyrannofex (by jifel)
C+ (on foot with Rupture Cannon)
I'm with you all the way until here. If anything is deserving of an F, it is sure the Malaceptor. But if 2 things deserve an F it is the Malaceptor and the Rupture Cannon TFex. 205 points for a model that hits once per turn at S10 AP4 without ignore cover? Awful.
Not that I disagree with the F grading but the Rupture Cannon is assault 2. I assume you were just going off the fact that the Tyrannofex is BS3 though? Also there are plenty of other grades that are more poorly thought out than that one. The Sky-Slashers are a prime example.
the shrouded lord wrote: so what is this new maleceptor thing like? looks darned awesome and seems like it would look good next to my tyrant guard.
If you mean on the shelf next to your tyrant guard, then yes, its definitely a cool model. If you mean on the table? Just... No. Its widely regarded as being in competition for the absolute worst unit in the army.
the shrouded lord wrote: so what is this new maleceptor thing like? looks darned awesome and seems like it would look good next to my tyrant guard.
If you mean on the shelf next to your tyrant guard, then yes, its definitely a cool model. If you mean on the table? Just... No. Its widely regarded as being in competition for the absolute worst unit in the Game.
Polkadragon wrote: This is for use in the LGS, so no 5 Flyrants for me, rather a general TAC list. Will play against Chaos Space Marines with this friday, so welcome your input!
Spoiler:
-- Combined Arms
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs
Drop in the Zoanthropes and the Tervigon with pods, while Malanthrope, Gaunts and the LAN take midfield. Flyrants do work as usual.
So, last Friday I used the above list to fight a Chaos Space Marine army and it went quite well.
His army list was something like:
* Chaos Lord on Bike
* Plague Marines in Rhino
* Plague Marines in Rhino
* 5 Havocs with Autocannons
* Helldrake
* 10 Cultists
* 10 Cultists
* A unit of 5 Spawns
* 5 Chaos Bikers
* 2 Obliterators
* 2 Obliterators
* 5 Terminators
We called it after turn 4, because the CSM were about to get tabled.
Things I learned about my own army:
* The Zoanthropes didn't make back their points. There wasn't really any heavy armour around, so they felt a bit wasted. In the end, they tried to Spirit Leech a unit of Plague Marines twice, got denied once, and rolled a 9 the second time :( Warp Blast did kill a few marines and they held up the rest of the Marines in CC, but it wasn't really enough to justify the high cost of the unit + pod.
* I podded in the Tervigon, and that was a success. Upon arriving, he completely wiped a unit of Cultists with his double flamer attack and forced my opponent to redirect his forces back to his own deployment zone. In the end, the Tervigon got killed by the Terminators, but by that time he had done his job and spawned two units.
* The 30 Termagaunt unit is just so great to tarpit something with. They held up the Biker + Lord unit for a couple of turns, until the Warriors could come in and finish them off.
* Speaking of the Warriors, I've taken the habit to equip the Living Artillery Warriors as such: scything/rending, scything/rending, scything/Barbed Strangler. Only 110 points and makes them such a great counterattack unit. In this game, they waited until the Bike unit was pinned and then charged in with 15 attacks, of which a whole bunch rending. You do lose the Devourers on the Warriors, but I found myself not using them very much anyway.
* Tyrannocyte deathspitter shooting was great and the fact that you can move them around makes them less random than you'd think. They wiped half a unit of Cultists in this case and put a couple of wounds on the Terminators as well.
* Flyrant were great and Malanthrope was great, but that's nothing new. Obliterators deep struck in next to the Living Artillery Node and tried to take out the Exocrine, but 2+ cover is a bitch.
the shrouded lord wrote: I assume tha's because of the 205 point cost?
iT seems to me like a more expensive, better carnifex?
Please advise how it is conparrible to a Carnifex?
Yes, Totally confused. Every aspect of it is worse than a Carnifex except the number of wounds, and with 4+ save instead of a 3+, Those wounds disappear 33% faster, and thus despite one more wound it is significantly less survivable.
the shrouded lord wrote: so what is this new maleceptor thing like? looks darned awesome and seems like it would look good next to my tyrant guard.
For being a new model that everyone agrees looks pretty boss, the Maleceptor's rules really miss the mark. For example:
--- A 5++ on a tyranid MC is a sight for sore eyes, but it's normal 4+ armor save means it'll be relying on the invul against most of the weapons that will normally wound it. So, even though it has a 5++, it's still hanging out in ruins near a Malanthrope like everyone else.
--- It's new psychic power, Psychic Overload, with the ability to target 3 different units and cause D3 wounds (or a glance) that ignore normal armor and cover saves seems pretty great, but each target unit requires a separate manifestation. To reliably manifest a warp charge 2 power, you'll want to throw AT LEAST 4 psychic dice, which means by the time your Maleceptor has fired mind bullets at his 3 targets, you've likely rolled 12 dice. You could always spend less dice (you'll probably be forced to, in fact), but then you're just praying for good dice.
--- Speaking of praying for good dice, the Maleceptor is BS3. This matters because as of this moment, focussed witchfires require to hit rolls. I know this is a highly debated topic, and I'm not saying I have the answer, but as of right now the majority of people playing this game believe peeps need to roll to hit when manifesting focussed witchfires. If we get a FAQ ruling that removes the roll to hit, then things may change a bit for the Malecpetor, but as of right now, spending a ton of psychic dice to miss 50% of the time is a huge thumbs down.
So how dumb does GW look right now? They make a really cool model that we'd all love to go out and purchase, but then they take a huge dump all over it's rules and everyone is left asking themselves "why am I playin this turd?"
Currently there's only one answer, the Neural Node Formation.
1 Maleceptor
3 Zoanthrope Broods (granting you more psychic dice, which you obviously need for this dice hog)
+6" Shadow in the Warp (who doesn't like that?)
Reroll 1's on psychic tests (making your psychic tests a little more reliable is huge, especially if you end up having to spend less dice on a manifestation attempt than you'd like)
However, even after outlining all of that, and lets say I already want to field a large unit of zoanthropes for anti-tank purposes (so they'd also benefit from the re-rolling of 1s on psychic tests), I STILL WOULDN'T take this formation in a competitive game. There's always going to be more efficient uses for your points than to rely on the maleceptor and his Neural Node, at least in his current incarnation.
The best thing to do is probably wait a year, buy one on super discount, and await the inevitable huge upgrade he's sure to get in the next codex. There's no way GW will keep him this inconsistent if they want to sell those models.
shadowfinder wrote: Since people have been getting info on their list here I'll do the same.
I like to get some feed back on it which list is more competitive. I am taking one of these list to tshift in seattle. Incontroll, Jy2, and some other good players are showing up. And I like to make a respectable showing and even have a chance to stomp one or more of them
This list gives me some great shooting options. The Lan is a proven formation that works well. With the Barbed Hierodule opening tanks and the like I should have a target rich envierment for the LAN and the tyrants. The Droppoding Fex’s will alow me t put pressure in areas I need to. I like the concept of this list but I have yet to play test it.
What would I have to worry about with this list? Is the lack of bubble wrap a concern?
This list lets me hold obj. better and still hits like a tone of bricks. With the crone helping out it should handle IK and Serpent spam well I think.
I do play aggressive. The first list is better at playing a Trapdoor style. While list 2 is a kind of all or nothing style. Thoughts or ideas on how to improve or what list would give me fits are always welcome//needed
Haha....you can stomp on Geoff or the other guys, but please take it easy on poor little me.
BTW, I like your list #1 better.
As for me, I am bringing Necrons. This will probably be their last hurrah before they get updated with a new codex.
Benlisted wrote: I guess another good thing about the Children of Cryptus is that you have to use them as Warlord to get PE - meaning your opponent doesn't StW by shooting down a flyrant. Only problem is it is a bit pricier than the minimum StW denial unit (5 genes and brood for 130). But it has the benefit of being a fairly nasty combat threat (though that goes against StW denial..), and guaranteeing a useful trait as opposed to risking some of the dreadful ones. Anyway, basically I'm pleased to have a use for the 8 ST genes I got very cheap off a friend xD.
Anyway, thanks for the commentary on Reaper VS Maw-claws on the Skytyrant! I have a few more queries.
I'm getting a few more Warrior broods soon and am unsure how to equip the few I will be kitting out with LWBS or RC - basically do I keep the Devourer or swap to ST for the bonus attack? I'm leaning towards Devourers, as I don't plan to shell out for AG (mostly since I'll be running them in a couple of different ways and won't always want it), they might be getting their BS buffed by a Prime, and because I figure Shrikes are a better bet for Assaulty "Warriors". But anything from people with experience trying them is appreciated.
As an aside (unsure if this is the best place to ask) - do the units in my Endless Swarm formation actually get Obj Secured? I'd read online that they do - but upon reading the formations sections in the rulebook I can't see anything that indicates that they would: command benefits seem to only apply to units in the Warlord's detachment?
But the Strategic Traits are so much better. As my general rule-of-thumb, powers that benefit the entire army are much better than powers that benefit just 1 unit. Also, you're going to play this unit aggressively anyways, as it would be a total waste to just sit the 215-pt unit on an objective, so you WILL be putting your Warlord at risk.
For warriors, I like to run them with rending claws + devourers if they are a "forwards" unit. A forwards unit is one that you will integrate into the offense and, in essence, play more aggressively. This gives them flexiblity when you push them forwards - against infantry, transports and tougher units like other MC's. However, as a min-sized objective-sitting, Synapse baby-sitting "backfield" unit, just keep them plain and un-upgraded (with perhaps only a stranglethorn or venom cannon).
No, units in the Endless Swarm are NOT ObSec. They have to be part of a Combined Arms Detachment (CAD) or Allied unit to be ObSec.
jifel wrote: Ok, the weekend is here, so I'm taking a quick break from finals studying to write another review:
Tyrannofex (by jifel)
C+ (on foot with Rupture Cannon)
I'm with you all the way until here. If anything is deserving of an F, it is sure the Malaceptor. But if 2 things deserve an F it is the Malaceptor and the Rupture Cannon TFex. 205 points for a model that hits once per turn at S10 AP4 without ignore cover? Awful.
jifel wrote: I fully understand that view, and I guess relative to some other grades I would agree that a C+ may be too high. But, it does fill a role that nothing else in our army does, even if it does it poorly. I may bump it down to a D, but I will say that it does not deserve an F, simply because the Fleshborer Hive exists.
I wouldn't say he deserves an F. While his shooting does suck harder than my vacuum, he is still a MC with 2+ that you can charge forwards to soak up shots and can still threaten vehicles with both the rupture cannon and egrubs.
I agree with jifel's revised grading. The rupture-fex is a D in my books.
jifel, would you like me to change the grading in the main tactica to reflect your new thoughts about the rupture-fex?
tag8833 wrote: I had 2 interesting games today. Playing a few guys that haven't beat me in quite some time, and so I was looking for a creative way to tank a couple of games. I settled on the concept of Warrior Spam, and then took that a littler farther, and decided to play only T4 models with multiple wounds.
My 2000 point List:
Spoiler:
Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Maw Claws, AG, FHs, Regen, Toxin Sacs) <- Only model not T4
5 Raveners (Devourers, RCs)
6 Raveners (Deathspitters, RCs)
6 Shrikes (2 with BS + LW + STs, 4 with Devourer + RCs, All had FHs, AGs)
Deathleapers Assassin Brood.
Death Leaper
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Game 1:
Spoiler:
A Tau gunline list that included 1 Ion Tide, 5 large groups of fire warriors, 2 squads of pathfinders, 2 Devilfish, Aegis + Comms, Farsight + Suites deepstriking, and 3 Plasma Suites Deep Striking.
I rolled master of Ambush, and infiltrated the Prime + Warriors, the Venoms, and 2 Zoeys. The Lictors all infiltrated as well. I got first turn and shot up some fire warriors, and managed to kill a squad of pathfinders for 1st blood. Generally I descended on his corner hoping to assault on turn 2.
In his turn he killed 7 of the 8 warriors with the prime, a Zoey, and a Lictor. My turn, I pulled off a massive, massive assault chaining. Grabbing 4 Sqauds of Fire Warriors, a Devilfish, the Riptide, and a Squad of pathfinders. Everything in his army was locked in CC except for the squad of fire warriors that was still embarked in a Devilfish, and the units in reserves. I killed him off his Comms Relay, and only the 3 Suits came in. We were headed for a turn 4 tabling when he conceded.
Tyranid Overwhelming Victory
Game 2:
Spoiler:
The Deathstorm Blood Angels formation with a Grey Knight detachment, and a Space wolf ally. The Grey knights had 7 psilencers spread out over 5 units, including 2 Heavy psilencers on the Nemisis Dread Knight. Also a Dreadnought, and 5 Longfangs shooting Missiles.
I knew from the start that this game was going to go bad for me. Way, Way, Way too much S8+ and Force for my 3 wound T4 list. He tailored to me, and I'm actually somewhat proud of how effectively he did it, I've been working hard trying to teach him how to build an effective list, and this list was not optimized, but very good against what I was bringing.
It was Big Guns, with Hammer and Anvil deployment. Turn 1 I advanced, but only manage to kill 2 long fangs with shooting. I also made a tactical deployment error by deep striking my Lictors. I should have started them on the table. In his turn 1 he managed a 10 inch charge with the Dreadnought into my Shrikes, then the Deathcompany came in. I rolled absolutely abysmally, and lost all of the Shrikes while only killing one Deathcompany.
In my Turn 2 only 2 Lictors came in. They popped the Dreadnought. I charged a Dreadknight with the raveners and did 7 Rends, but he made 4 4+ invuls, and then killed 4 Raveners. My other group of Raveners mixed it up with a big squad of grey Knights, and eventually they more or less killed eachother. Everything that could shot at the Grey Knight Terminators, and did a ton of wounds. 20+, he made all of his 2+ saves, and so I chickened out and didn't assault. On his turn he killed everything but my warriors, and the lictors in reserve. Turn 4, the warriors died, and all I had left were 3 Lictors, but I still had a chance because he was way out of position. I needed 1 Lictor to kill 2 Longfangs in assault, and 1 Lictor to kill 4 Blood claws in assault, and 1 Lictor to take the final wound from a dreadknight. Unfortunately, the Longfangs managed to take the last wound off the lictor in assault, and the Dreadknight made his 4++, so I was left with only 2 Lictors on the board and Conceded.
Rules question: Can a Shrike with Flesh Hooks use them in Assault against a Dreadnought? If so, do I get 1 attack or 2?
Thanks for sharing!
Flesh hooks are not melee weapons so no, you cannot use them in Assault.
shadowfinder wrote: Since people have been getting info on their list here I'll do the same.
I like to get some feed back on it which list is more competitive. I am taking one of these list to tshift in seattle. Incontroll, Jy2, and some other good players are showing up. And I like to make a respectable showing and even have a chance to stomp one or more of them
This list gives me some great shooting options. The Lan is a proven formation that works well. With the Barbed Hierodule opening tanks and the like I should have a target rich envierment for the LAN and the tyrants. The Droppoding Fex’s will alow me t put pressure in areas I need to. I like the concept of this list but I have yet to play test it.
What would I have to worry about with this list? Is the lack of bubble wrap a concern?
This list lets me hold obj. better and still hits like a tone of bricks. With the crone helping out it should handle IK and Serpent spam well I think.
I do play aggressive. The first list is better at playing a Trapdoor style. While list 2 is a kind of all or nothing style. Thoughts or ideas on how to improve or what list would give me fits are always welcome//needed
Haha....you can stomp on Geoff or the other guys, but please take it easy on poor little me.
BTW, I like your list #1 better.
As for me, I am bringing Necrons. This will probably be their last hurrah before they get updated with a new codex.
Spoiler:
Benlisted wrote: I guess another good thing about the Children of Cryptus is that you have to use them as Warlord to get PE - meaning your opponent doesn't StW by shooting down a flyrant. Only problem is it is a bit pricier than the minimum StW denial unit (5 genes and brood for 130). But it has the benefit of being a fairly nasty combat threat (though that goes against StW denial..), and guaranteeing a useful trait as opposed to risking some of the dreadful ones. Anyway, basically I'm pleased to have a use for the 8 ST genes I got very cheap off a friend xD.
Anyway, thanks for the commentary on Reaper VS Maw-claws on the Skytyrant! I have a few more queries.
I'm getting a few more Warrior broods soon and am unsure how to equip the few I will be kitting out with LWBS or RC - basically do I keep the Devourer or swap to ST for the bonus attack? I'm leaning towards Devourers, as I don't plan to shell out for AG (mostly since I'll be running them in a couple of different ways and won't always want it), they might be getting their BS buffed by a Prime, and because I figure Shrikes are a better bet for Assaulty "Warriors". But anything from people with experience trying them is appreciated.
As an aside (unsure if this is the best place to ask) - do the units in my Endless Swarm formation actually get Obj Secured? I'd read online that they do - but upon reading the formations sections in the rulebook I can't see anything that indicates that they would: command benefits seem to only apply to units in the Warlord's detachment?
But the Strategic Traits are so much better. As my general rule-of-thumb, powers that benefit the entire army are much better than powers that benefit just 1 unit. Also, you're going to play this unit aggressively anyways, as it would be a total waste to just sit the 215-pt unit on an objective, so you WILL be putting your Warlord at risk.
For warriors, I like to run them with rending claws + devourers if they are a "forwards" unit. A forwards unit is one that you will integrate into the offense and, in essence, play more aggressively. This gives them flexiblity when you push them forwards - against infantry, transports and tougher units like other MC's. However, as a min-sized objective-sitting, Synapse baby-sitting "backfield" unit, just keep them plain and un-upgraded (with perhaps only a stranglethorn or venom cannon).
No, units in the Endless Swarm are NOT ObSec. They have to be part of a Combined Arms Detachment (CAD) or Allied unit to be ObSec.
While a PE/stealth Genestealer unit is pretty nice, I am not sold on them because they make your Warlord a threat just like Flyrants, but are easier to wipe out. Another concern of mine is that the Children of Cryptus don't synchronize well with most of our "Multiple Threat Overload" units, and I don't think the unit is good enough to work on it's own. All of our fast threat units rely on being hidden/protected turn 1, with either a 2+ cover save and being far away, or in reserve, and then suddenly getting close turn 2 thanks to Reserve DS/Flying 24" forward. The GEnestealer unit would have to infiltrate forward to get there turn 2, but that means turn 1 would be left mostly exposed and too far forwards. I think that the best solution would be to infiltrate them into a ruin and GTG for a 2+ cover save before synapse rallying them with a Flyrant. That would make them fairly resilient, and as long as the enemy doesn't ignore cover they should live, but I fear that they would take the brunt of short ranged weapons (bolters, lasguns, etc.) that usually do nothing turn 1 thanks to our threats being "hidden".
@Shadowfinder: I'm with jy2, list one seems to be the better option in a TAC sense. Barbed Hierodules have been demonstrated to be nasty so I like the inclusion, and then the LAN gives you plenty of good options. Plus, who doesn't love a Dakkafex in a Pod? However, I think that list 2 has the potential to be an awesome list. My concerns with it at the moment are the lack of EGrubs on the Flyrants, and the Devilgants. With no delivery system, I feel like they don't accomplish much in the list. I would much rather replace the Gants with 3 Rippers, which then frees up 45 points, to take two EGrubs and have 25 points left. Personally, I would take the 25 points and slap a Barbed Strangler on one of the Pods, just to give some anti-horde options with the loss of the LAN from list 1. I like the idea of double FexPods and 3 FLyers a lot personally, but then I've never been as sold on the LAN as some other players. Either way, the two lists are both solid, and I hope you do well at the GT!
@jy2: Go ahead and update the TFex on the main page! Now, a quick question on the SkyTyrant swarm as you've used it before. Would you consider taking Adrenal Glands on the Gargoyles? I'm thinking of running 30 gargs with the SkyTyrant, and I think for 75 points (including the Flyrant) the rerolls on the charge are massively useful, plus with such a big, fast unit, I think that multi-charges will happen a lot, so it'd be very useful to have that +1 strength to catch a couple of vehicles in there and put some hurt on them. Right now, I'm thinking of replacing the Imperial Knight and a gaunt blob in my army with a Flyrant with the Reaper, EG and Adrenal Glands and 30 gargoyles with Adrenal. It's a 510 point sink admittedly, but with Malanthrope support it'll hit like a Brick and be toug h to take down, especially when I'll have 3 FMCs and a FexPod coming down with it.
It's tournament legal for most until if/when TO's start ruling that Hive Fleet Leviathan counts as a CAD or something along those lines. It's basically the same way straight Tyranid lists are getting five Flyrants.
I played this list today against Grey Knights/Space Wolves with drop podding Purifiers. My opponent brought 2 10 man Purifier squads with 2 incinerators each, an 8 man Purifer squad with a ML3 libby all in pods, 2 Grey Hunter squads with a Rune Priest in pods, a min Strike Squad, and a Dreadknight. Turns out he had a 2000 pt list to my 1850, but it was nobody's fault. Neither of us really asked as the game was a wee rushed to start with.
Spoiler:
He had first turn and dropped in a combat squadded Purifier unit, the Purifiers with his Libby and a Grey Hunter pod. All the Purifiers landed near my GUO and ScreamerStar, fortunately the Grey Hunters scattered far enough back to bring their full weight to bear. DK shunted forward. It looked bad, but fortunately all the Cleansing Flames he popped off were able to be denied as I was denying on a 4+ and had plenty of dice to throw(targeting ML3 psykers with PsyShooting/Maledictions a'int exactly gonna go your way ). Incinerators and massed bolter fire did put a dent in the ScreamerStar though.
The Flyrants which I had put in a corner away from any objectives leapt in to the air and took out one 5 man Purifier combat squad and put a dent in the 8 man unit. Unfortunately the 8 man unit failed their morale check and fell back making it impossible for my GUO to make what was otherwise a guaranteed charge (he had Iron Arm, Endurance AND Warp Speed that turn ). Nurgle Prince made it into combat with his Grey Hunters and killed a few.
Turn 2, his last purifier squad comes in behind my screamers (who now have 3++ rerolling 1s) and pretty much finish neutering them. Nurgle Prince finishes off Grey Hunters this turn and flyrants continue to merk mehreens. Don't know why he thought his Dreadknight could tango with a buffed GUO but he charges it. I whiff first round of combat, but end up killing it in my turn. Nurgle Prince finishes off Grey Hunters in my turn as well. I had the Mucolids, Nurglings, and Horrors all in reserve and they all came in this turn. All mucolids mishap, one dies, two go into ongoing reserve, and the horrors and nurglings scatter away from their objectives. Meh, deepstrike.
Turn 3, he finishes off my ScreamerStar in his shooting phase and assaults the Nurgle Prince with 5 Purifiers who have Force. Nurgle Prince responds by eating them. He shuffles around a bit but only his Strike squad sits on an objective. Flyrants continue to do what they do and just dakka away. Nurglings grab an objective as well as the Nurgle Prince. We had to call it here due to time. I would have liked to see it play it to the bitter end, as I feel it would have been a close game.
All in all I think the list is pretty good. It performed admirably, especially considering the points deficit. Flyrants just cover so much of what Daemons lack without exposing any further weaknesses. That said, it could definitely use a few tweaks though, and I need more experience running it. A few thoughts:
-First off, the Screamerstar did almost nothing this game, which was frustrating. I didn't roll Cursed Earth, so no 2++ cheese. It was also the prime target of his alpha strike, so it was difficult to play them aggressively after taking heavy casualties. In other lists I have no problem summoning with this unit, but I found I was throwing so many dice at keeping the GUO and Nurgle Prince alive that I just didn't have the Warp Charges. This is partially due to the fact that I was expending more warp charges per power than I normally would since he so many denial dice. Also I kind of just had too many buffs to work with (I rolled Iron Arm, Endurance, and Warp Speed on BOTH of my Nurgle baddies. . . talk about picking your powers).
-A little bit more ObSec would have been nice. Might try to find points to replace a Mucolid with some Rippers.
-Flyrants are awesome (duh.) and the Nurgle Princes compliment them really well with their ability to kill just about any other MC in the game. With impunity if you roll up Warp Speed.
Thanks for sharing. A couple of thoughts:
1. I'm sad to see how far my favorite Imperial army (the Grey Knights) have dropped. I liked them so much better in the previous codex and it was more because of the flexibility and variety in army builds that they used to be able to run. Sigh.
2. I'm finding that, in a Daemon army, no matter how many good powers you get, you're only going to be able to cast maybe 25% of them....and that is actually on a good day. My Nurgle opponent got Iron Arm on both of his GUO's against me and not once did he even cast one of them. So don't be too happy when you get a lot of powers. More likely than not, you probably won't be able to use them.
3. Focus on Defensive powers first (i.e. Endurance vs force weapons, Invisibility if you have it, Cursed Earth, Forewarning, Shrouding for flyers, etc.), Summoning powers 2nd and offensive powers last (don't need to cast Warp Speed until you are actually in combat, you don't want to finish off the unit in your turn anyways). If your units are not in any danger, then just focus on Summoning.
4. Rippers > Mucolids because rippers score. However, since you are running the Leviathan formation, then no ObSec Tyranid troops for you anyways. Shore up your scoring with summoned daemons, daemonettes for offense and pink horrors for all other occasions.
5. Flyrants rock in almost any format/game. You're just a nice guy for not running 3 of them.
All in all I think the list is pretty good. It performed admirably, especially considering the points deficit. Flyrants just cover so much of what Daemons lack without exposing any further weaknesses. That said, it could definitely use a few tweaks though, and I need more experience running it. A few thoughts:
-First off, the Screamerstar did almost nothing this game, which was frustrating. I didn't roll Cursed Earth, so no 2++ cheese. It was also the prime target of his alpha strike, so it was difficult to play them aggressively after taking heavy casualties. In other lists I have no problem summoning with this unit, but I found I was throwing so many dice at keeping the GUO and Nurgle Prince alive that I just didn't have the Warp Charges. This is partially due to the fact that I was expending more warp charges per power than I normally would since he so many denial dice. Also I kind of just had too many buffs to work with (I rolled Iron Arm, Endurance, and Warp Speed on BOTH of my Nurgle baddies. . . talk about picking your powers).
-A little bit more ObSec would have been nice. Might try to find points to replace a Mucolid with some Rippers.
-Flyrants are awesome (duh.) and the Nurgle Princes compliment them really well with their ability to kill just about any other MC in the game. With impunity if you roll up Warp Speed.
Thanks for the write up dude. I agree, Nids, specifically Flyrants make a Daemon list whole. You get so much for your money when comparing a Flyrant with a standard DP.
The problem with summoning and trying to make other units durable is the lack of psychic dice to do both as you have experienced.
this is why I like 3 heralds in a screamerstar plus fateweaver as that's giving you 11 rolls to get cursed earth and the other summing powers you need.
that way you don't need to be casting invisibility or shrouding, endurance or iron arm to keep your units durable.
The psychic dice in my experience should be mostly spent on summoning. I aim to summon 3 units a turn and cast cursed earth. I may switch to flickering fire in later turns if I feel the need.
Hey all, so I've been out of the Nid game for a couple months, but I've been swiftly pulled back by the influx of amazing new goodies.
I know of the Lictor list that won the GT, but I still am not quite sure as to what value Lictors are bringing to lists. Especially in the sort of list that jy2 posted earlier with the 5 Flyrants. Can anyone enlighten me?
I take it because they are a cheap and very flexible scoring option. The idea of MSU is to run a lot of cheap, sacrificial units. If one gets blown away, then no biggie. He's only 50-pts and not a great loss to the army. But then your opponent just wasted a valuable unit (i.e. wasted his resources) in trying to take out an expendable unit instead of shooting at my more dangerous unit, the flyrant.
The idea of running cheap MSU units is to make target priority tough for your opponent. You either shoot at my hard-to-kill flyrants and let my MSU units grab objectives and otherwise harass your army, or you shoot at them and let my flyrants continue to ravage your army. Either ways is fine with me because 1) my flyrants are tough to kill and 2) I don't really mind losing a unit that I consider as fodder anyways.
However, lictors are not just objective grabbers. They have several benefits that are highly useful to the army. They can be placed with pin-point precision anywhere on the table (I mean placed anywhere that is legal). They help with your other reserves (that comes in on subsequent turns after your lictors come in). Finally, while 50-pt units don't really do much, lictors, however, are actually a threat to enemy MSU units and transports. Thus, they will force your opponent to take them out. That's fine with me as that is 1 less gun aiming at your more crucial units.
So, last Friday I used the above list to fight a Chaos Space Marine army and it went quite well.
His army list was something like:
* Chaos Lord on Bike
* Plague Marines in Rhino
* Plague Marines in Rhino
* 5 Havocs with Autocannons
* Helldrake
* 10 Cultists
* 10 Cultists
* A unit of 5 Spawns
* 5 Chaos Bikers
* 2 Obliterators
* 2 Obliterators
* 5 Terminators
We called it after turn 4, because the CSM were about to get tabled.
Things I learned about my own army:
* The Zoanthropes didn't make back their points. There wasn't really any heavy armour around, so they felt a bit wasted. In the end, they tried to Spirit Leech a unit of Plague Marines twice, got denied once, and rolled a 9 the second time :( Warp Blast did kill a few marines and they held up the rest of the Marines in CC, but it wasn't really enough to justify the high cost of the unit + pod.
* I podded in the Tervigon, and that was a success. Upon arriving, he completely wiped a unit of Cultists with his double flamer attack and forced my opponent to redirect his forces back to his own deployment zone. In the end, the Tervigon got killed by the Terminators, but by that time he had done his job and spawned two units.
* The 30 Termagaunt unit is just so great to tarpit something with. They held up the Biker + Lord unit for a couple of turns, until the Warriors could come in and finish them off.
* Speaking of the Warriors, I've taken the habit to equip the Living Artillery Warriors as such: scything/rending, scything/rending, scything/Barbed Strangler. Only 110 points and makes them such a great counterattack unit. In this game, they waited until the Bike unit was pinned and then charged in with 15 attacks, of which a whole bunch rending. You do lose the Devourers on the Warriors, but I found myself not using them very much anyway.
* Tyrannocyte deathspitter shooting was great and the fact that you can move them around makes them less random than you'd think. They wiped half a unit of Cultists in this case and put a couple of wounds on the Terminators as well.
* Flyrant were great and Malanthrope was great, but that's nothing new. Obliterators deep struck in next to the Living Artillery Node and tried to take out the Exocrine, but 2+ cover is a bitch.
Chaos just have it tough against Tyranids. Actually, most marine builds do. I feel really bad for the CSM codex. They were much better last edition with the super hell turkeys, but now, yeesh. Hopefully, the new Imperial Armour 13 book will breathe some new life into them.
I'm not big on the whole zoanthrope/neurothrope combo unit. To me, it's a fairly sizeable investment on a very inconsistent unit. Personally, I'd pass on that unit. I want my units to be a little more reliable performance-wise (with the exception of the dimachaeron, who is the model of inconsistency but oh-so-bada$$ ).
Thanks for sharing.
Verviedi wrote: I need to know how to beat this list in an 1850 game with IGnids.
1. Flyers and templates. Run dual-flyrants and just start picking off the important units.
2. Your best options for blasts - and these are very good Take-All-Comer's units that should be in your lists anyways - mawlocs, biovores and IG wyverns.
3. Ignore his hammerheads initially. They are just too hard to take out until your flyrants can get rear armor shots. Just make sure you park your tanks in cover.
4. Play to the objectives. Always plan for how you are going to take the objectives. Kill off his chances for getting to objectives. For me, that usually means to kill off his mobility. That means the piranhas, riptide and the suits.
5. Use terrain. Insist on fair terrain with at least 1 or 2 LOS-blocking terrain. DO NOT just let your opponent setup the terrain. The fairest way to arrange terrain is to take turns placing them and insist that you guys use at least 1-2 big LOS-blockers. I repeat, INSIST that terrain be fair. You have to put your foot down if your opponent disagrees, especially if it is the guy you always play against.
You can handle your opponent as long as you don't let him take advantage of you in the game.
@jy2: Go ahead and update the TFex on the main page! Now, a quick question on the SkyTyrant swarm as you've used it before. Would you consider taking Adrenal Glands on the Gargoyles? I'm thinking of running 30 gargs with the SkyTyrant, and I think for 75 points (including the Flyrant) the rerolls on the charge are massively useful, plus with such a big, fast unit, I think that multi-charges will happen a lot, so it'd be very useful to have that +1 strength to catch a couple of vehicles in there and put some hurt on them. Right now, I'm thinking of replacing the Imperial Knight and a gaunt blob in my army with a Flyrant with the Reaper, EG and Adrenal Glands and 30 gargoyles with Adrenal. It's a 510 point sink admittedly, but with Malanthrope support it'll hit like a Brick and be toug h to take down, especially when I'll have 3 FMCs and a FexPod coming down with it.
Ok, done!
No, don't upgrade your gargs. My motto is (at least for gribblies) bodies over upgrades. To upgrade 30-gargoyle unit, you can instead get 10 more gargoyles. That is a much more worthwile investment IMO.
You should be cracking open enemy transports with other units (i.e. flyrants and dakkafex) for your skytyrant unit to multi-charge.
BTW, if you multi-charge, you lose the benefits of Furious Charge due to making a disorderly charge.
who's played a game using the skytyrant swarm in a competitive set up? I want to know how a CC flyrant with goyles tailing back to a malanthrope would fair in a tough match up.
Wilson wrote: who's played a game using the skytyrant swarm in a competitive set up? I want to know how a CC flyrant with goyles tailing back to a malanthrope would fair in a tough match up.
Has anyone seen this or have any experience?
While I haven't run them in a tournament, my instincts tell me that they will do well. Board control is really the strength of this unit and with that many gargoyles, they have a humongous footprint and a big DO-NOT-COME-NEAR-ME sign on them.
Actually, for my next tournament, I am thinking of running triple-flyrants + the Skytyrant formation. I have a feeling that they will kick ass, especially when supported by all those flyrants (and probably a dimachaeron as backup).
tag8833 wrote: Rules question: Can a Shrike with Flesh Hooks use them in Assault against a Dreadnought? If so, do I get 1 attack or 2?
Flesh hooks are not melee weapons so no, you cannot use them in Assault.
They are grenades. Most Grenades can be used in assault, but you are correct, that Flesh Hooks can't, because they have no melee profile, and the Grenade rule says a profile is needed to use them in melee.
@jy2: Go ahead and update the TFex on the main page! Now, a quick question on the SkyTyrant swarm as you've used it before. Would you consider taking Adrenal Glands on the Gargoyles? I'm thinking of running 30 gargs with the SkyTyrant, and I think for 75 points (including the Flyrant) the rerolls on the charge are massively useful, plus with such a big, fast unit, I think that multi-charges will happen a lot, so it'd be very useful to have that +1 strength to catch a couple of vehicles in there and put some hurt on them. Right now, I'm thinking of replacing the Imperial Knight and a gaunt blob in my army with a Flyrant with the Reaper, EG and Adrenal Glands and 30 gargoyles with Adrenal. It's a 510 point sink admittedly, but with Malanthrope support it'll hit like a Brick and be toug h to take down, especially when I'll have 3 FMCs and a FexPod coming down with it.
Ok, done!
No, don't upgrade your gargs. My motto is (at least for gribblies) bodies over upgrades. To upgrade 30-gargoyle unit, you can instead get 10 more gargoyles. That is a much more worthwile investment IMO.
You should be cracking open enemy transports with other units (i.e. flyrants and dakkafex) for your skytyrant unit to multi-charge.
BTW, if you multi-charge, you lose the benefits of Furious Charge due to making a disorderly charge.
I fully understand the bodies over upgrades approach, but I forgot about the disorderly charge part. Thought that was just the attack bonus, but I think you're right on losing FC too. If that's the case though, it makes the decision a lot easier then. Barebones it is! That actually will allow me to squeeze a bit more into my 1850 list.
Wilson wrote: who's played a game using the skytyrant swarm in a competitive set up? I want to know how a CC flyrant with goyles tailing back to a malanthrope would fair in a tough match up.
I think Skytyrant will be good in Tyranid Tourney lists, but it doesn't fit effortlessly into a current lists, it will require some list design and experimentation to really reveal its power.
The biggest problem is that it fundamentally cannot handle Imperial Knights, and with a footprint of that size it cannot avoid them.
It opens up all sorts of new options, but with that comes a need to fundamentally redesign lists. My first thought is to run it as a powerful, and tough distraction unit alongside a Flying Circus. Like this:
You Can use the Flying bases as a mobile screen to deny assault to Imperial Knights. Plus a Flying Circus of that Type can fairly easily kill 3-4 Imperial Knights, so it would be an absolute hard counter to Pacific Rim lists, not that we need much help with those lists usually.
Wilson wrote: who's played a game using the skytyrant swarm in a competitive set up? I want to know how a CC flyrant with goyles tailing back to a malanthrope would fair in a tough match up.
I think Skytyrant will be good in Tyranid Tourney lists, but it doesn't fit effortlessly into a current lists, it will require some list design and experimentation to really reveal its power.
The biggest problem is that it fundamentally cannot handle Imperial Knights, and with a footprint of that size it cannot avoid them.
It opens up all sorts of new options, but with that comes a need to fundamentally redesign lists. My first thought is to run it as a powerful, and tough distraction unit alongside a Flying Circus. Like this:
You Can use the Flying bases as a mobile screen to deny assault to Imperial Knights. Plus a Flying Circus of that Type can fairly easily kill 3-4 Imperial Knights, so it would be an absolute hard counter to Pacific Rim lists, not that we need much help with those lists usually.
I've got no problems with the Skytyrant unit against knights. Adlance? Bring it on! That 1100-pts of knights should be more afraid of getting tarpitted by my 550-pt skytyrant unit than vice versa. I'll hold them up for probably 3-4 game turns. Meanwhile, my army will destroy the rest of his army. For every turn his knights aren't "producing" (as in, wiping out a unit), then it's hurting him more than it's hurting me. It also means that he can't go grabbing Maelstrom secondary objectives. If there's anything the knights should fear, it's a cheapo unit tying them up for several game turns.
BTW, with your list, I wouldn't go triple-crones. That is overkill. I'd drop 1 crone for more support units, like upgrading the mucolids to rippers for objective purposes and maybe even grabbing some lictors (or more gargoyles).
It's tournament legal for most until if/when TO's start ruling that Hive Fleet Leviathan counts as a CAD or something along those lines. It's basically the same way straight Tyranid lists are getting five Flyrants.
I played this list today against Grey Knights/Space Wolves with drop podding Purifiers. My opponent brought 2 10 man Purifier squads with 2 incinerators each, an 8 man Purifer squad with a ML3 libby all in pods, 2 Grey Hunter squads with a Rune Priest in pods, a min Strike Squad, and a Dreadknight. Turns out he had a 2000 pt list to my 1850, but it was nobody's fault. Neither of us really asked as the game was a wee rushed to start with.
Spoiler:
He had first turn and dropped in a combat squadded Purifier unit, the Purifiers with his Libby and a Grey Hunter pod. All the Purifiers landed near my GUO and ScreamerStar, fortunately the Grey Hunters scattered far enough back to bring their full weight to bear. DK shunted forward. It looked bad, but fortunately all the Cleansing Flames he popped off were able to be denied as I was denying on a 4+ and had plenty of dice to throw(targeting ML3 psykers with PsyShooting/Maledictions a'int exactly gonna go your way ). Incinerators and massed bolter fire did put a dent in the ScreamerStar though.
The Flyrants which I had put in a corner away from any objectives leapt in to the air and took out one 5 man Purifier combat squad and put a dent in the 8 man unit. Unfortunately the 8 man unit failed their morale check and fell back making it impossible for my GUO to make what was otherwise a guaranteed charge (he had Iron Arm, Endurance AND Warp Speed that turn ). Nurgle Prince made it into combat with his Grey Hunters and killed a few.
Turn 2, his last purifier squad comes in behind my screamers (who now have 3++ rerolling 1s) and pretty much finish neutering them. Nurgle Prince finishes off Grey Hunters this turn and flyrants continue to merk mehreens. Don't know why he thought his Dreadknight could tango with a buffed GUO but he charges it. I whiff first round of combat, but end up killing it in my turn. Nurgle Prince finishes off Grey Hunters in my turn as well. I had the Mucolids, Nurglings, and Horrors all in reserve and they all came in this turn. All mucolids mishap, one dies, two go into ongoing reserve, and the horrors and nurglings scatter away from their objectives. Meh, deepstrike.
Turn 3, he finishes off my ScreamerStar in his shooting phase and assaults the Nurgle Prince with 5 Purifiers who have Force. Nurgle Prince responds by eating them. He shuffles around a bit but only his Strike squad sits on an objective. Flyrants continue to do what they do and just dakka away. Nurglings grab an objective as well as the Nurgle Prince. We had to call it here due to time. I would have liked to see it play it to the bitter end, as I feel it would have been a close game.
All in all I think the list is pretty good. It performed admirably, especially considering the points deficit. Flyrants just cover so much of what Daemons lack without exposing any further weaknesses. That said, it could definitely use a few tweaks though, and I need more experience running it. A few thoughts:
-First off, the Screamerstar did almost nothing this game, which was frustrating. I didn't roll Cursed Earth, so no 2++ cheese. It was also the prime target of his alpha strike, so it was difficult to play them aggressively after taking heavy casualties. In other lists I have no problem summoning with this unit, but I found I was throwing so many dice at keeping the GUO and Nurgle Prince alive that I just didn't have the Warp Charges. This is partially due to the fact that I was expending more warp charges per power than I normally would since he so many denial dice. Also I kind of just had too many buffs to work with (I rolled Iron Arm, Endurance, and Warp Speed on BOTH of my Nurgle baddies. . . talk about picking your powers).
-A little bit more ObSec would have been nice. Might try to find points to replace a Mucolid with some Rippers.
-Flyrants are awesome (duh.) and the Nurgle Princes compliment them really well with their ability to kill just about any other MC in the game. With impunity if you roll up Warp Speed.
Thanks for sharing. A couple of thoughts:
1. I'm sad to see how far my favorite Imperial army (the Grey Knights) have dropped. I liked them so much better in the previous codex and it was more because of the flexibility and variety in army builds that they used to be able to run. Sigh.
2. I'm finding that, in a Daemon army, no matter how many good powers you get, you're only going to be able to cast maybe 25% of them....and that is actually on a good day. My Nurgle opponent got Iron Arm on both of his GUO's against me and not once did he even cast one of them. So don't be too happy when you get a lot of powers. More likely than not, you probably won't be able to use them.
3. Focus on Defensive powers first (i.e. Endurance vs force weapons, Invisibility if you have it, Cursed Earth, Forewarning, Shrouding for flyers, etc.), Summoning powers 2nd and offensive powers last (don't need to cast Warp Speed until you are actually in combat, you don't want to finish off the unit in your turn anyways). If your units are not in any danger, then just focus on Summoning.
4. Rippers > Mucolids because rippers score. However, since you are running the Leviathan formation, then no ObSec Tyranid troops for you anyways. Shore up your scoring with summoned daemons, daemonettes for offense and pink horrors for all other occasions.
5. Flyrants rock in almost any format/game. You're just a nice guy for not running 3 of them.
Don't give my sportsmanship a pat on the back just yet. . . Only not running 3 because I only own 2
Totally experienced the lack of casting ability even with 18 +D6 Warp Charge dice. While I was pleased to have the options, I was never able to use all of them, and even not using all of them I probably did over do it on casting buffs when I should have been summoning at least one unit a turn.
Against a lot of other lists I would have had a little more time to summon, but with 3 units full of force weapons plus a DreadKnight in my face turn 1 I had no choice but to buff up with Endurance. Summoning always goes after that, and I pretty much never use maledictions/witchfires against units that deny on anything but a 6.
All in all I think the list is pretty good. It performed admirably, especially considering the points deficit. Flyrants just cover so much of what Daemons lack without exposing any further weaknesses. That said, it could definitely use a few tweaks though, and I need more experience running it. A few thoughts:
-First off, the Screamerstar did almost nothing this game, which was frustrating. I didn't roll Cursed Earth, so no 2++ cheese. It was also the prime target of his alpha strike, so it was difficult to play them aggressively after taking heavy casualties. In other lists I have no problem summoning with this unit, but I found I was throwing so many dice at keeping the GUO and Nurgle Prince alive that I just didn't have the Warp Charges. This is partially due to the fact that I was expending more warp charges per power than I normally would since he so many denial dice. Also I kind of just had too many buffs to work with (I rolled Iron Arm, Endurance, and Warp Speed on BOTH of my Nurgle baddies. . . talk about picking your powers).
-A little bit more ObSec would have been nice. Might try to find points to replace a Mucolid with some Rippers.
-Flyrants are awesome (duh.) and the Nurgle Princes compliment them really well with their ability to kill just about any other MC in the game. With impunity if you roll up Warp Speed.
Thanks for the write up dude. I agree, Nids, specifically Flyrants make a Daemon list whole. You get so much for your money when comparing a Flyrant with a standard DP.
The problem with summoning and trying to make other units durable is the lack of psychic dice to do both as you have experienced.
this is why I like 3 heralds in a screamerstar plus fateweaver as that's giving you 11 rolls to get cursed earth and the other summing powers you need.
that way you don't need to be casting invisibility or shrouding, endurance or iron arm to keep your units durable.
The psychic dice in my experience should be mostly spent on summoning. I aim to summon 3 units a turn and cast cursed earth. I may switch to flickering fire in later turns if I feel the need.
Always happy to upload my experiences to the Hive Mind!
I'll give heavier summoning a try, but I just feel so meh on fateweaver. Adding malefic powers to each head does make him a bit more flexible now however.
I don't know where I'd get the points to add a third Herald to the Screamers in this type of list. A third Herald would probably require a pretty extensive overhaul of the Daemon detachment as I was hoping to have at least 4 scary MCs for threat overload. In a Tzeentchian configuration it would be 4 scary FLYING MC's which is tempting despite the GUOs awesome durability. The Balesword is so nice though. At least I have the problem of having too many good options to choose from.
2 Land Raiders
Storm Raven
Centurions (spelling?)
Some tac Sqauds
Thunderfire Cannon
by turn 3 it was a clear victor for nids.
Big Guns, Dawn of war table set up (Err 12" deployment) (1-3 would be 1st mission sets and 4-6 tactics mission sets)
Turn 1: Nids 1st Knowing the Centurions (Thunder fire cannon behind) couldnt over watch, I had my Sky Tyrant formation go after them only, EVERYthing else I pushed very hard to his tac sqauds and Land Raiders, was able to kill 2 tac squads and a Land Radier turn 1 (Haywire missles + 1 Ele grubs) I was lucky tbh with the Land Raider.
The Sky Tyrant form, took alot of hits from Cents+Thunder cannon (I moved and then Ran, got 5" run for a 17" turn one move) I lost 8 Goyles (had 6+ Cover + Night fight for a 5+ cover on golyes, I saved 4 Goyles).
With 1 land Raider, 15 marines, Cents and Cannon left, he focused Sky tyrant and my Warlord Tyrant only, he actually did really good and killed my Warlord.
Turn 2: All reserves come in, Drop on 3 Objectives (just sat and held no need to move them) Killed off another tac unit, put 2 HP's on Land raider and..... the big moment Sky Tyrant Form charged Centurions, (Went through Cover) I lost a couple goyles no wonder on tyrant, Tyrant killed 2 Centurions goyles put 1 wound on other.
SM player: His Storm Raven come in and did 4 wounds to 1 Hive Crone and 1 Wound to a Tyrant (trying to ground 1 or the other) Past Grounding checks, his other Tac squad was still in Land Raider (and IMO a smart move)
Turn 3 Dakka Flyrant killed Thunderfire canon, I land with it also (To charge next turn) Harpies both Shot last 2 missles into Storm Raven (He Jink) doing 2 Hp's, Sky Tyrant form killed off last Centurion.
My opponent conceded at that point.
Please Note: He didnt have his full army with him so he added a 2nd land Raider, I look forward to playing him again this time when he remembers to bring a couple missing units
jy2 wrote: I've got no problems with the Skytyrant unit against knights. Adlance? Bring it on! That 1100-pts of knights should be more afraid of getting tarpitted by my 550-pt skytyrant unit than vice versa. I'll hold them up for probably 3-4 game turns. Meanwhile, my army will destroy the rest of his army.
I'm not feeling 30 Gargoyles + a Tyrant have much chance of tarpitting 3 knights for 3-4 game turns. I think it is less than 1/2 that. 3 Rounds of combat, possibly. Every Stomp is removing 2-3 gargoyles. 3 Knights are going to stomp on average 6 times. That means 15 gargoyles per combat round. 2 Rounds, and likely one Knight is out of combat, and the other two get out on the 3rd round (aka on your turn). That means you tapit them for only 1 turn of the person playing the knights.
well that sucks about the malecepter. I really need something fun to paint as I'm finally getting back into my tyranids (blog in my signature) and I've already painted my tyrant guard.
not sure if these have been discussed but how are:
carnifexes, trygons and haruspexes?
also, on a scale of 1-10, how low would the malecepter be? I want to get one just to paint an display but i haven't got the money to buy something that costes 100 dollars and never use it.
Check the first post, every unit is explained there in detail.
And a Maleceptor would probably be a 3. It's very expensive, isn't really survivable for such a cost and doesn't do a lot. It gets +2 points because it looks cool.
Im going to by a Flyrant and Convert to a Malanthrope soon. (I like them better than venoms)
My bad. I didn't see them at first. Why did you let the skytyrant get out of range of them?
I had it set up for sky tyrant, but the way he deployed, (His whole army in 1 corner and Centurions/cannon in other) I felt Goyles would do better as a screen for the tyrant to kill those 2 units ASAP. It was a decisions that I took and Im glad I did.
But I can understand the thinking in "You moved goyles out of 3+ Cover whaaa!)
Im going to by a Flyrant and Convert to a Malanthrope soon. (I like them better than venoms)
My bad. I didn't see them at first. Why did you let the skytyrant get out of range of them?
I had it set up for sky tyrant, but the way he deployed, (His whole army in 1 corner and Centurions/cannon in other) I felt Goyles would do better as a screen for the tyrant to kill those 2 units ASAP. It was a decisions that I took and Im glad I did.
But I can understand the thinking in "You moved goyles out of 3+ Cover whaaa!)
So you ran the venoms in a single squad? Why? To Deny 1st blood?
Been putting together my copy of the Deathstorm box and found something rather interesting. The Carnifex isn't re-mounted on the flyer oval base, but rather has an altogether new one! Looks like it has a good half-inch smaller radius than the regular oval base, kinda like they took the 60mm and spread it out a bit.
Well you could build it as a Toxecrene, it's not super hot, but it is not "bad". Same body, just with more tenticuls. You can toss it in a Pod, or run HyoerToxic Node. The juries still out, but it looks like it might be 'playable".
(Three Veno Broods, Toxi, and a Tyrant...special rules make poison more poisonous (varies) I kinda like it...if my finances get more stable, I plan to paint a Toxi up, and give it a play or two.
As there seems to be some interest (ok, ok, only 1 person interested) in the maleceptor, I've decided to do a review on it.
Maleceptor: (by jy2)
While I like the concept of the maleceptor, the execution of its design is rather flawed. Basically, the maleceptor is a psychic Tyranid unit who provides psychic firepower as well as Synapse support. Now before I get into why he is flawed, I'd like to discuss why you may want to consider him in your army and how you could use him.
1. He is a support unit that provides Synapse and Shadows coverage for the army. He contributes to the warp dice pool.
2. His main offense, the Psychic Overload psychic power, is one of the very few weapons in the Tyranid arsenal that ignores cover. It is also a focussed witchfire, meaning he has the chance to snipe out particular models in a unit.
3. Psychic Overload actually makes for a nice combo with Shadows in the Warp against enemy psykers, especially solitary units like monstrous creatures or the very annoying Eldar farseer with the Mantle.
4. He is still a monstrous creature, which makes him a threat to enemy infantry and tanks.
5. Psychic Overload isn't his only power. He also gets Dominion and another randomly generated power.
6. He has an Invulnerable save, which makes him just slightly more survivable in close combat, but only to units with power weapons and such.
7. Since his shooting is all done in the psychic phase, he can target a different unit than he wants to assault, and he can run even after "shooting". - tag8833
Despite his force-multiplier capabilities, what makes him so flawed?
1. Be design, he sucks up more warp dice than he generates. He's like a psychic vacuum, only he kills your own warp pool instead of your opponents. He can cast Psychic Overload up to 3 times against different opponents. Problem is, Psychic Overload is a WC2 power. To even cast it semi-reliably, you're going to have to use 4 dice. If you want to cast it 3 times, you're going to expend about 12 dice. Well, the maleceptor only contributes 2 dice to the warp pool so in essence, you will be taking valuable dice away from the other psychic units in the army to cast his powers. The maleceptor is a rare unit indeed. Instead of being a force-multiplier, or a unit that helps the army overall, he is actually a force-divider.
2. Psychic powers just aren't reliable enough. Using 4 dice gives him a 75% chance at success only and then the opponent gets a chance to deny. Now normal targets will have a hard time, but against a psychic target, they are denying on a 5+. And against a psychic unit with a Lvl 3 psyker in it, he is going to be very easily able to deny on a 4+. And then they would have to fail a LD test, even if it is on 3D6. A LD10 target will fail his test only about half of the times.
3. Poor Ballistic Skill. On top of the unreliability that are psychic powers, he still has to hit on 4's due to being BS3 only. Now if psychic shooting was his secondary offense, it wouldn't be so bad. But because his psychic shooting IS his offense, you need something more reliable, which is what he isn't.
4. 4+ save? Are you kidding me? What the heck were the designers thinking? All of the land-based Tyranid MC's have 3+ saves and the toxicrene has Shroud for a potential 2+/3+ cover, but 4+ on a ground MC makes him quite a glass cannon MC. You HAVE to keep him within range of a malan/venomthrope, at least if you want to keep him alive from enemy shooting. In Assault, this guy can be killed by any marine with a krak grenade. There isn't another TMC that is quite as fragile as the maleceptor.
5. He is expensive. For a unit as fragile as he is and whose offense is as unreliable as his, he just isn't worth the points. Even if the maleceptor were to come down by 50-pts, I'd have to think about whether I would use him or not, but at his current cost, he is a no-brainer. Actually, let me shorten that for you. He is a NO. For any of his roles, almost every other unit in the codex can do it more efficiently.
6. Psychic Overload can only kill one model at the most. It targets a model not a unit, and that model (if it fails leadership) takes D3 wounds, but extras do not carry over to the unit. - tag8833
The concept of a brain-bug is cool, but GW really dropped the ball on the unit design. Fortunately for them, you can build the kit as the toxicrene instead, so it's not a total loss. But in terms of the maleceptor, that guy is pure fail with a capital F.
I agree completely with your review, but there is one plus and one minus worth mentioning.
+ Since his shooting is all done in the psychic phase he can target a different unit than he wants to assault, and he can run even after "shooting"
- Psychic Overload can only kill one model at the most. It targets a model not a unit, and that model (if it fails leadership) takes D3 wounds, but extras do not carry over to the unit.
- Even if you target an IC or Character, they can still LOS the wounds away (actually possible to kill multiple models this way). So it is best used against single model units or targeting special weapons in a squad.
I agree completely with your review, but there is one plus and one minus worth mentioning.
+ Since his shooting is all done in the psychic phase he can target a different unit than he wants to assault, and he can run even after "shooting"
- Psychic Overload can only kill one model at the most. It targets a model not a unit, and that model (if it fails leadership) takes D3 wounds, but extras do not carry over to the unit.
- Even if you target an IC or Character, they can still LOS the wounds away (actually possible to kill multiple models this way). So it is best used against single model units or targeting special weapons in a squad.
Thanks. Completely agreed. Will add your comments onto my review.
the shrouded lord wrote: well, thanks for that...I think.
btw, unless you couldn't tell, I'm that guy who takes terminator-heavy lists.
in 1000 point games.
Sorry, I couldn't tell.
There's nothing wrong with running sub-optimal units, as long as you don't mind losing more than winning. Now you can still make them work, that is, if you were to complement your army with strong units as well (i.e. dual flyrants, the malanthrope). But you're going to find out the hard way how much tougher it will be to win games with these types of units. But in the end, winning isn't everything. If you love the model and just want to get the chance to use it in game, then by all means, go for it. However, if you want to win games with them as well, then I'd advise you to not run any unit (or unit configuration) in the reviews who doesn't have at the very least a C rating in our reviews.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the shrouded lord wrote: hmm...well thanks for the advice guys, now, what's the best way to use pyrovores?
You can find the review for him on p.1 of our main tactica, but I will post it here as well:
Pyrovore: (by Unyielding Hunger)
Spoiler:
The Pyrovore has long been infamous as quite possibly the worst unit in the codex and the game at large. Happily, that is no longer the case, and it serves as a fairly loose middle road.
1. It has reliable firepower for clearing objectives and hordes.
2. It benefits from the Promethium relay, which can support it in either a defensive or offensive capacity.
The major weakness of the Pyrovore lies in its mobility. Unfortunately, the Pyrovore just happens to be an incredibly slow moving platform with very little in the way for options to get around faster. However, once kitted out with some transportation, they can actually become far more effective. Each of them is armed with a heavy flamer, so going after hordes is generally the most commonly accepted method of use, however they can also get a good bit of mileage out of going after dedicated assault units. Setting a nice juicy unit of Terminators on fire is going to make back a fair portion of its points back, and then the terminators are going to have to consider the following. Do I assault 3 flamers and take 3d3 automatic overwatch hits, or ignore them and get flamed every turn?
The only reliable transport options for Pyrovores are to take Trygon tunnels or hitching a ride inside a pod. Now, taking a pod is cheaper than the Trygon and waiting subsequent turns and gives it more time on the field to earn back points. It also seems to be the much better tactic in that you can hug it and force your opponent into a multi-assault. Eating a nest of devourers plus a group of 3 flamers in overwatch is going to be a bit much for most standard units that these things will be pitted against and it should allow you to either kill or tarpit the unit for several turns. Promethium Relays will give your Pyrovores some range, but these fortifications are stationary and as long as your opponent avoids it, there is very little your Pyrovores can do to help make back points. This would only be recommended in a defensive scenario. When dealing with enemies in entrenched cover, Pyrovores are one of the most cost effective ways to force them out. Things get even better when dealing with a rush of light vehicles that are open topped, capable of damaging the vehicles and dealing d6 wounds to the unit inside. But the best part of all is that the Pyrovore itself is an Elite choice rather than Heavy Support. As it currently stands, the HQ, FA, and HS organizational chart areas are currently among the top areas of interest to Tyranid Players, which means that you won't have to think too hard about devoting a slot to this pyrotechnics display.
Grades: A (Podvores), B+ (Promvores), C (Vanilla)
Grading - An Alternate Perspective: B (Podvores), C+ (Promvores), D (Vanilla) (by jy2)
Reason(s): To me, an 'A' unit is a unit that can and will consistently contribute to the Tyranid cause. While pyrovores in pods (podvores) can be very good for its role of anti-infantry, oftentimes it just won't contribute much. Why?
1. Mech armies. It won't do very much against a mainly meched up opponent (other than possibly open-topped AV10 transports).
2. Smart players will reserve their troops/squishy units. As a competitive player, I do that all the time. They just won't have viable targets against certain armies and smarter generals.
3. Elite armies. 3 templates just won't do much to the more elitist armies, like 2+ save units, MC's, deathstar armies, etc.
4. Besides reserving, smart players can mitigate the damage somewhat by spreading out
Against the armies I mentioned, oftentimes, the pyrovores will just have to drop out of sight onto an objective and just sit there. That is not their role. Either that or get in close, don't do much damage and then give up First Blood. These guys are situational contributors. Like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they have the potential to shine. However, against the wrong army, they are just as likely to fall flat on the face.
In short, if you want to run them, it's best to put them in a tyrannocyte spore.
indeed my friend. this thread has been interesting and useful, and while i'm not one for the competetive scene (though i do plan on eventually being so) it is good to know more about my army.
so, here's a question:
one monsterous creature. one that's on a large oval base. which is the best? in your opinion/ what ever.
the shrouded lord wrote: maybe I should buy a second mawloc.
or just make my own thread and stop wasting space in this one.
Really its about synergy with your list.
If you have a very mobile list, Goyles, Crones/harpies, Flyrants ect.. and you want some non drop pod MC's then Mawlocs are good. OR if you have trouple with Armor 2 and need AP2 blasts than mawlocs can work for that too.
I have a Love/hate relationship with them, When they hit the right spot they do loads of damage, when they miss they are target practice.
the shrouded lord wrote: indeed my friend. this thread has been interesting and useful, and while i'm not one for the competetive scene (though i do plan on eventually being so) it is good to know more about my army.
so, here's a question:
one monsterous creature. one that's on a large oval base. which is the best? in your opinion/ what ever.
I really don't see why you need to take the large oval base as a criteria for choosing your MC's, but I'll go with it.
My top 4 MC's on oval bases:
1. Mawloc - just a great unit overall due to his cheapness, excellent mobility and reliable AP2 large blast which ignores cover. However, he can be kind of hit-or-miss depending on the situation.
2. Dimachaeron - this guy is Forgeworld so not every place (mostly tournaments) will allow you to use him. He is the meanest CC mofo in the army and a HUGE threat in assault. I've actually had 2 games where the dima by himself killed most of my opponent's army. In 1 game against Space Wolves, he killed 900+ pts of wolves. In another game, he kill almost 1100-pts of daemons. This guy will either go BIG or go home depending on the matchups. He works best if you give him a tyrannocyte spore.
3. Tyrannofex w/acid spray + egrubs. A unit with decent anti-infantry firepower who can absorb a lot of firepower. This guy is a bullet sponge and will soak up a lot of punishment otherwise meant for the rest of the army. Works better with a tyrannocyte spore, but you could also just run him up the table.
4. Tervigon - a decent force multiplier who can be kitted out to be very dangerous against vehicles with crushing claws and egrubs. Put him in a tyrannocyte spore and he is golden. The downside? He either takes up a flyrant slot (not a problem if you only run 1) or you need to buy 30 termagants if you want to run the tervie as a troop. Fortunately, 30 termagants actually isn't a bad unit. It's decent and even good in a lot of matchups.
To add on, I feel like you want a big oval beast as your center piece. If that's correct then steer away from the Mawloc. He will be in reserves for the most of the game.
Since it seems that Tyrannofex and Tervigon are both good. Which is the better option for your first box? I mostly have troops and Carnifexes to go with it.
durecellrabbit wrote: Since it seems that Tyrannofex and Tervigon are both good. Which is the better option for your first box? I mostly have troops and Carnifexes to go with it.
With regards to modeling, can you magnetize the kit to be able to run both?
Personally, I prefer the tervigon over the t-fex mainly because he is force-multiplier unit that can help to make the entire army better. To me, those units are always better than a unit with 1 or 2 roles. Just keep in mind that you would have to give up a slot for a flyrant to take him (the tervigon) or you would have to include 30 termagants in your list.....unless you are running the Shield of Baal Leviathan formation where you can take 3 HQ's.
jy2 wrote: My top 4 MC's on oval bases:
...
4. Tervigon - a decent force multiplier who can be kitted out to be very dangerous against vehicles with crushing claws and egrubs. Put him in a tyrannocyte spore and he is golden. The downside? He either takes up a flyrant slot (not a problem if you only run 1) or you need to buy 30 termagants if you want to run the tervie as a troop. Fortunately, 30 termagants actually isn't a bad unit. It's decent and even good in a lot of matchups.
Tervigon tops Exocrine?
Ever since 7th dropped and nerfed the tar out of the Tervigon, I haven't figured out a way to use one without it feeling like a tax on my army. With the age of the Tyrannocyte, perhaps I should give it another run. I'm thinking a quasi null deployment list with lots of threats on turn 2 might get the Tervigon into Close combat safely.
I can put 2 pretty survivable OS units on objectives, and have lots of Lictors running around harassing whatever threatens the Tervigon. It feels like a list that could hang with Wave serpents fairly well.
My main problem with previous Tervigon lists was that losing the Tervigon generally restricted my ability to win the game. If my opponent has a consequence in the for of lictors, and a guided Mawloc, perhaps it is enough to offset the massive points investment in the Tervigon.
durecellrabbit wrote: Since it seems that Tyrannofex and Tervigon are both good. Which is the better option for your first box? I mostly have troops and Carnifexes to go with it.
Probably Tervigon as a force multiplier and Synapse beacon for your MC's.
durecellrabbit wrote: Since it seems that Tyrannofex and Tervigon are both good. Which is the better option for your first box? I mostly have troops and Carnifexes to go with it.
The Tyrannofex is way cheaper, does way more damage, is way more survivable, and doesn't kill termagants with it dies. It is a flexible unit that can bring something to most lists. Meanwhile the Tervigon has a trivial amount of offense, and its ability to support your army is highly random (Roll Catalyst, Spawn Gants).
Basically, you can put a Tfex in most lists and not regret it, but a Tervigon is difficult to get into lists (Gant Tax, or lose a flyrant), and need quite a bit more help and luck to be productive.
jy2 wrote: With regards to modeling, can you magnetize the kit to be able to run both?
Personally, I prefer the tervigon over the t-fex mainly because he is force-multiplier unit that can help to make the entire army better. To me, those units are always better than a unit with 1 or 2 roles. Just keep in mind that you would have to give up a slot for a flyrant to take him (the tervigon) or you would have to include 30 termagants in your list.....unless you are running the Shield of Baal Leviathan formation where you can take 3 HQ's.
I don't feel confident with magnetising for both. I managed to magnetise a Carnifex but broke some parts and had to order replacements. Maybe after some practising on other models I'll be able to with future additions.
Out of curiosity, has anyone tried giving a Tervigon the Miasma Cannon? Seems like a good way to make her atleast slightly useful, and not TOO expensive.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Out of curiosity, has anyone tried giving a Tervigon the Miasma Cannon? Seems like a good way to make her atleast slightly useful, and not TOO expensive.
I have, and I liked it alot with another temple weapon, I was giving my HT Hive Commander and outflanking it.
Outflanking Tervigon with 2 Templates and troop spawning was realy fun. (Never tried against Eldar, against Tau, SM, Chaos and CSM it was fine).
I wouldnt do it in a very competitive list, but for casual game heck yeah!
the shrouded lord wrote: maybe I should buy a second mawloc.
or just make my own thread and stop wasting space in this one.
I'm a big fan of Twin Mawlocs. Just a warning, they are a "love 'em, or don't" kinda unit. They always do great for me, but I have heard a Lot of sad stories over the years.
For Big Bug fav? I really like Tyranofex, Acid, Thorax Hive....
Strat_N8 wrote: Been putting together my copy of the Deathstorm box and found something rather interesting. The Carnifex isn't re-mounted on the flyer oval base, but rather has an altogether new one! Looks like it has a good half-inch smaller radius than the regular oval base, kinda like they took the 60mm and spread it out a bit.
I'll get pictures as soon as possible.
Here's that picture I promised:
The standard oval base is on the left (my Trygon tunnel marker), the new 'fex base is on the right.
So I'm working on a list that has a good amount of Mucolid spores. With some green stuff, I'll have a few from my Tyrannocyte boxes, but I need more than that. Does anyone know of a place to get more than one or two?
Regarding the Skytyrant Swarm formation - The Skyrant can't leave the Skytyrant Swarm formation, regardless of what happens to the Gargoyles. He's a jump MC with an 18" synapse, with or without Gargoyles.
N.I.B. wrote: Regarding the Skytyrant Swarm formation - The Skyrant can't leave the Skytyrant Swarm formation, regardless of what happens to the Gargoyles. He's a jump MC with an 18" synapse, with or without Gargoyles.
Once all of the Gargoyles are dead, you've either crippled your enemy's offense, or essentially lost the game. The much bigger concern is average toughness 3 and lack of fleet.
luke1705 wrote: So I'm working on a list that has a good amount of Mucolid spores. With some green stuff, I'll have a few from my Tyrannocyte boxes, but I need more than that. Does anyone know of a place to get more than one or two?
I used these but you will need to increase the height of them by applying something additional on the base as they are around 2/3rds of an inch shorter.
luke1705 wrote: So I'm working on a list that has a good amount of Mucolid spores. With some green stuff, I'll have a few from my Tyrannocyte boxes, but I need more than that. Does anyone know of a place to get more than one or two?
I used these but you will need to increase the height of them by applying something additional on the base as they are around 2/3rds of an inch shorter.
Out of curiosity, is there any redeeming value in running a Tervigon/Termagant list anymore? Been tossing the idea around of using them as a mobile shield for a Bioblast Node. Probably run this at 1000pts or so.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Out of curiosity, is there any redeeming value in running a Tervigon/Termagant list anymore? Been tossing the idea around of using them as a mobile shield for a Bioblast Node. Probably run this at 1000pts or so.
Basically the fewer the points, the better the Tervigon gets.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Out of curiosity, is there any redeeming value in running a Tervigon/Termagant list anymore? Been tossing the idea around of using them as a mobile shield for a Bioblast Node. Probably run this at 1000pts or so.
Basically the fewer the points, the better the Tervigon gets.
The main problem with a Tervigon with bioblast node is that the Malanthrope is far better as a supporting unit for far few points. It also gets better at lower points level. If you don't have / want to run a Malanthrope than you could do worse than a Tervigon. Personally, I like them as HQ's more than Troops in lower point games with Nidzilla lists. The problem with 30 Termagants is that they get in the way of walking MC's. Gargoyles and Hormagants are better screeners, and you don't want to outflank them in smaller games, because they represent a pretty sizable investment to possibly sit out for 3 turns.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Out of curiosity, is there any redeeming value in running a Tervigon/Termagant list anymore? Been tossing the idea around of using them as a mobile shield for a Bioblast Node. Probably run this at 1000pts or so.
The lower the point total, the more powerful MCs become. Tervigon is a little over priced, but at a low point total, that is unlikely to be as much of an issue, and at low point totals spawning Termagants is a lot better as well.
I think it's fair to say now that Tyranids are up there with the strongest in the 'general' meta right now.
Certainly a contender for top spot. It will be interesting to see what the coming tournaments yield.
It would be nice if they applied some if this love to the other lacklustre codex's such as Chaos.
luke1705 wrote:So I'm working on a list that has a good amount of Mucolid spores. With some green stuff, I'll have a few from my Tyrannocyte boxes, but I need more than that. Does anyone know of a place to get more than one or two?
Foam golf ball (for test-shots), a mix of green stuff tentacles & Tyranid Bits and your there!
They are also AMAZING for board presence & control. They (+ spore mines) can have a big enough impact to be relevant beyond the board presence. PLUS they are cheap enough (and mobile enough) to be throwaway.
Deafbeats wrote: Hi I'm new to Tyranids, where can I find a place that has all the Tyranid supplements/formations in one place so I can track down and get them?
There's
Codex: Tyranids (All units not listed below are in here) eBook and hard back (2 sizes) from GWS
Imperial Armour 4: Anphelion Project (Rules for Hierophant, Harridan, Barbed Hierodule, Scythed Hierodule, Dimachaeron, Meiotic Spores, Stone Crusher Carnifex and Malanthropes found here) Hard back from Forgeworld
Shield of Baal: Leviathan - The Rules (Skytyrant Swarm, Hypertoxic Node, Neural Node, Skyblight Swarm, Sporefield and Skytide formations along with the new rules for Zoanthropes, Neurothopes, Mucolid Spores, Malceptors, Toxicrenes, Sporocyst, Tyrannoctye and it also has the Leviathan Detachment Warlord Traits and Force Org) eBook and limited edition hard back
Shield of Baal: Deathstorm (Phodian Annihilation Swarm formation and rules for The Beast of Phodia, Phodian Hive Warriors and the Children of Cryptus) eBook and limited edition paper back
Rising Leviathan 1 (Lictor Forest Brood, Manufactorum Genestealers, Deathleaper's Assassin Brood, Broodlord's Hunting Pack and Gargoyle Bio-Bombs formations) eBook only
Rising Leviathan 2 (Incubator Node, Synaptic Swarm, Skyblight Swarm [Same as one in Shield of Baal), Living Artillery Node and Endless Swarm formations) eBook only
Rising Leviathan 3 (Bioblast Node, Wrecker Node, Tyrant Node, Subterranean Swarm and Living Tide formations) eBook only
PSA: If you have any reason to purchase a Carnifex, Warriors, or Genestealers in the near future, those units are incredibly cheap on Ebay right now. Seems like a lot of people are buying the new Shield of Baal kit and selling the individual components at an extreme markdown from their usual prices. At a quick glance, I see Warriors selling for $20-25, Genestealers for ~$15, and I was just able to pick up a Carnifex for $22.
Telly wrote: PSA: If you have any reason to purchase a Carnifex, Warriors, or Genestealers in the near future, those units are incredibly cheap on Ebay right now. Seems like a lot of people are buying the new Shield of Baal kit and selling the individual components at an extreme markdown from their usual prices. At a quick glance, I see Warriors selling for $20-25, Genestealers for ~$15, and I was just able to pick up a Carnifex for $22.
Happy Holidays indeed!
yeah...good call.
picked up a deathstorm box, was happy to see the stealers/carnifex/warriors have all the normal kit options.
incredible deal- the box set alone costs as much as just the warriors+carnifex box, too bad those do not seem to be very powerful units in competitive builds though.
Telly wrote: PSA: If you have any reason to purchase a Carnifex, Warriors, or Genestealers in the near future, those units are incredibly cheap on Ebay right now. Seems like a lot of people are buying the new Shield of Baal kit and selling the individual components at an extreme markdown from their usual prices. At a quick glance, I see Warriors selling for $20-25, Genestealers for ~$15, and I was just able to pick up a Carnifex for $22.
Happy Holidays indeed!
yeah...good call.
picked up a deathstorm box, was happy to see the stealers/carnifex/warriors have all the normal kit options.
incredible deal- the box set alone costs as much as just the warriors+carnifex box, too bad those do not seem to be very powerful units in competitive builds though.
Carnifexes are fantastic competitively, especially wit the Tyrannocyte. Dropping a Carnifex with double Devourer and Adrenal Glands behind enemy lines is a huge disruption factor, and will absolutely clean up anything it can reach.
Plus, Warriors are required in almost all of the formations besides the ones in the air, most notably Living Artillery node which is incredibly competitive.
So I was going to make a new thread to discuss this, but i figured there were enough Ork threads out there. I wanted to hear from some tyranid players about how you counter orks, and things in the ork codex that give you trouble.
What does the Tyranid vs Ork matchup involve and how would one prepare for either side of that battle?
Icculus wrote: So I was going to make a new thread to discuss this, but i figured there were enough Ork threads out there. I wanted to hear from some tyranid players about how you counter orks, and things in the ork codex that give you trouble.
What does the Tyranid vs Ork matchup involve and how would one prepare for either side of that battle?
Ive only played against New orcs a hand full of times (6-7 times) and only once did I have trouple at all (It was after 3 games and I and a friend told him to fix his list and he did, he did much better).
My lists each time was about to the same, b.c I wanted the 2 Orc players to get better (they newer players, only a year playing the game)
These games was before the Current new nids releases @ 2k pints
2x Dakka Flyrants Both with Hive Commander (gives 1 Troop outflank per tyrant)
2x1 Venoms
2x10 gants + Devours (3 shot s4 guns) Both Outflanking
1x30 gants
1x tervigon + Miasma Cannon (poison 2 gun with a Blast and Flamer) and Ele Grubs (s5 ap5 Haywire flamer)
2x Hive Crones + Stinger Salvo (4shot heavy bolter)
1x Harpy + Stranglethorn + Cluster Spines (Large blast s5)
1x3 Biovores
2x1 Dakka Fexes
The list looks add, but, the point was to overload the orc player, with 4 dakka MC's 2 flying and 3 more Fliers it made my opponents waste their Lutta (spelling?) Shots on fliers (that tried to stay in cover and just take the 5+ or 4+ cover save not from jink, ruins or trees + venoms).
10 gants with 30 s4 shots on the sides is a scare tactic, if he has to Move closer to the side(s) I can separate him and make it harder for him to go where he wants to go and that way he also has less unit support.
Tervigon for Tar pitting and blocking orc movement, 2 flamers for anti-charge/horde clearing.
They Crones dealt with heavy Vehicles and so did Carnifexs when they got closer.
I completely ignore the Big Walker, just putting gants in the way and walking the other way.
The list I had trouple with was 2 units of 30 boyz with a 5++/5++ (Invul/FnP) it was really hard killing anything
I think the Warrior TROOP choice in deathstorm is a little under rated. While it is a CC unit, it has some nice perks and takes a standard FOC instead of a being a Formation. Infested Ruin is not a bad, basic free bonus rule for them. They still assault at Int in terrain, and make all Ruins in 12" DT for non-nid factions.
The other two FOC units are bit of a let down, but the total formation is pretty solid with Stelath, (shrouded stealers), and PE.
barnowl wrote: I think the Warrior TROOP choice in deathstorm is a little under rated. While it is a CC unit, it has some nice perks and takes a standard FOC instead of a being a Formation. Infested Ruin is not a bad, basic free bonus rule for them. They still assault at Int in terrain, and make all Ruins in 12" DT for non-nid factions.
The other two FOC units are bit of a let down, but the total formation is pretty solid with Stelath, (shrouded stealers), and PE.
Icculus wrote: So I was going to make a new thread to discuss this, but i figured there were enough Ork threads out there. I wanted to hear from some tyranid players about how you counter orks, and things in the ork codex that give you trouble.
What does the Tyranid vs Ork matchup involve and how would one prepare for either side of that battle?
The Ork lists I see aren't particularly challenging for most tyranid lists. Tyranid lists struggle against Elite Infantry and Heavily armored vehicles. Orks don't tend to field much of either (Meganobz being the exception).
The things Orks have that scare me a bit when I face them are Tankbustas and Tractor Kannons. With Tyranids being forced to a mainly Flying Circus Build based around the flyrant, both of those units are a threat to flyrants.
I just bought a swarm, and to be honest I think hormagaunts are worthless. Literally models to be put on the table and taken off. (at least in my local meta.) Should I instead put the extra flesh borers I have on them? Every time I use termagants they at least do something before a hellhound tank shocks them off the board and then flames a squad of genestealers.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I just bought a swarm, and to be honest I think hormagaunts are worthless. Literally models to be put on the table and taken off. (at least in my local meta.) Should I instead put the extra flesh borers I have on them? Every time I use termagants they at least do something before a hellhound tank shocks them off the board and then flames a squad of genestealers.
Well, hellhounds shouldnt get close to them lol.
But If you really didnt/dont want them, Put devourers on them and call them devil gants (Devourer Termagants).
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I just bought a swarm, and to be honest I think hormagaunts are worthless. Literally models to be put on the table and taken off. (at least in my local meta.) Should I instead put the extra flesh borers I have on them? Every time I use termagants they at least do something before a hellhound tank shocks them off the board and then flames a squad of genestealers.
Hormagaunts serve as a moving shield for your monster creatures, by themselves they aren't going to do much.
Well it was the pitched battle table sides game I think. Basically I was up against an AM tank gunline and vendetta spam. Pask in a punisher, blobs of fearless guardmen. I had 120 genestealers I proxied as hormaguants. They were gone by turn two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dont really need the shield, since I have some venomthropes, (plan on getting more too)
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Well it was the pitched battle table sides game I think. Basically I was up against an AM tank gunline and vendetta spam. Pask in a punisher, blobs of fearless guardmen. I had 120 genestealers I proxied as hormaguants. They were gone by turn two.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dont really need the shield, since I have some venomthropes, (plan on getting more too)
Shrouded plus Intervening cover is better than Shrouded alone. I find Hormagaunts to be excellent.
Well, I showed him the rulebook, and he was convinced the model getting the save needs to be 25% obscured, and I told him no, that only applies to vehicles, he then denied this, yet in certain other games he puts the tip of his wraithknights base into a ruin and claims the 4+ save... at that point I just didnt wanna make a scene.
"If when it comes to allocate a Wound, the target model's body is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save. ... all cover provides a 5+ save."
"If a target is partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit, it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain."
Thus, you get a 5+ if you are obscured 25% for any reason (terrain, etc) and a 5+ if at least 1% obscured by a third party unit.
It's also how GW plays it:
Spoiler:
As you can see, the Toxicrene is clearly not 25% obscured, yet the writers claim a Cover Save. Though, to play devils advocate, GW is often not correct about their own rules...
Honestly, it sucks to have to fight with your opponent about Cover Saves. That is never fun. Often it's easier to let it go. But for the Tyranids, it's a really important aspect of the army. Trying to maximize every cover save we take. It's good to give your opponent the benefit of the doubt when allocating Cover. But at the same time, giving in consistently will really affect the ability of many Tyranid units.
N.I.B. wrote: Regarding the Skytyrant Swarm formation - The Skyrant can't leave the Skytyrant Swarm formation, regardless of what happens to the Gargoyles. He's a jump MC with an 18" synapse, with or without Gargoyles.
Once all of the Gargoyles are dead, you've either crippled your enemy's offense, or essentially lost the game. The much bigger concern is average toughness 3 and lack of fleet.
Of course. I just wanted to kill the misconception that once the Gargoyles are dead, the Skyrant reverts back to normal Flyrant status.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I just bought a swarm, and to be honest I think hormagaunts are worthless. Literally models to be put on the table and taken off. (at least in my local meta.) Should I instead put the extra flesh borers I have on them? Every time I use termagants they at least do something before a hellhound tank shocks them off the board and then flames a squad of genestealers.
So I'm going to a highlander tournament in a few months (with the added caveats of no troop replication until you've taken all troops, no LoW, and critically no formations). I've considered a few options for a force - a deep striking one seems hard to pull off - I have a mawloc, one tyrannocyte, and something outflanking with HC unless I want to shell out for a trygon. A rushy one seems fun but I'm unsure of the practicality of running big units of gargoyles, hormas, shrikes and genes. So that leaves me a more balanced approach.
I guess my question is, what do people consider best in the codex in this sort of situation (and if you only had one tyrannocyte, what would you want in it)? Things change considerably with only one flyrant allowed, notably with a deficit in the anti-armour department. My present list of must-haves includes a flyrant, tervigon, mawloc and biovores, though a crone could potentially be nice too.
Mawloc is pretty much garranteed to destroy whatever you want when you deep strike it. than, IIRC, you can put it back in reserve and do that again?
using two of them, you can effectively obliterate anything that isn't khldor draigo strong this way. also, if you end up with it in combat with ten tactical terminators it will die.
Benlisted wrote: So I'm going to a highlander tournament in a few months (with the added caveats of no troop replication until you've taken all troops, no LoW, and critically no formations). I've considered a few options for a force - a deep striking one seems hard to pull off - I have a mawloc, one tyrannocyte, and something outflanking with HC unless I want to shell out for a trygon. A rushy one seems fun but I'm unsure of the practicality of running big units of gargoyles, hormas, shrikes and genes. So that leaves me a more balanced approach.
I guess my question is, what do people consider best in the codex in this sort of situation (and if you only had one tyrannocyte, what would you want in it)? Things change considerably with only one flyrant allowed, notably with a deficit in the anti-armour department. My present list of must-haves includes a flyrant, tervigon, mawloc and biovores, though a crone could potentially be nice too.
Lets start with things you need.
Spoiler:
1) Dakkaflyrant w/ Hive commander. He's got to carry the load with anti-air, and anti Mech.
2) Malanthrope. You need him to keep you MC's alive. Midfield Synapse.
3) Crone. Helps the flyrant out with anti-air and anti mech.
4) Dakkafex. One of the more versatile units in the codex. Does everything well. You might consider 2, but 1 fits in the Tyrannocyte.
5) Gargoyles (20 or so). The best tarpit in the game. An excellent screening unit. These neutralize threats and let the rest of your army do work.
6) Termagants (20 with 10 Devourers). This is usually what you want to outflank. It can threaten vehicles, infantry, and even some MC's in a pinch.
7) Zoenthrope. Warp charge battery, backfield synapse, and psychic support unit. Really good bang for your buck.
8) Tyrannocyte. You are going to want to put something in here, just got to decide what. Thankfully, you can do this as a gametime decision, even after you opponent deploys, if he deploys first.
The next group are things I recommend, but aren't required.
Spoiler:
9) Venomthrope. Without being able to run a flying circus, you will need a little help for the malanthrope keeping your MC's Alive.
10) Hormagants(10). If you are running Maelstrom this is a no brainer. If you are running Eternal war, you might consider rippers instead.
11) Tyrannofex (Acid spray, E.Grubs). This is normally what goes in the tyrannocyte. He is a walking linebreaker.
12) Exocrine. He helps out with things that the rest of the army struggles with. A Mawloc could fill this role, but if so you probably want to up your Hormagants to 20 to give you another tarpit to help out against MC's. If running Maelstrom, go Mawloc instead.
Now you are making serious choices. You might have to give up something above to fit these things into your list, but they might be worth it.
Spoiler:
13) Mawloc. If there were 4 heavy slots available, this would be in the category above. But, it just doesn't bring quite as much to your army as a TFex or Exocrine unless you are running Maelstrom.
14) Dimachaeron. Highlander favors MSU a bit. Dimachaerons struggles against MSU. But he can kill enemy MC's if they don't kill him first. He can kill vehicles and infantry blobs. If only he moved 12", or had shooting enough to contribute for turn 1 and 2 when he is contributing nothing to your army. You don't want to put him in the Tyrannocyte unless you also take a Comms Relay, because nothing is sadder than a dedicated close combat bad ass that gets his 1st charge on turn 5.
15) Rippers. If playing eternal war, you can consider subbing them in for Hormagants above. Hormagants give you lots more options, and support the rest of your army. Adding them as a 3rd troop to fill the last 50 points isn't a bad idea.
16) Raveners. These serve much the same role as a Dimachaeron, but they move 12" ignoring terrain, and can't get ID by one lucky swing.
17) Shrikes. Like Ravers, but a tad more expensive because you've got to take Adrenal Glands for Fleet. On the plus side, for a few more points they get grenades, and you can take BS + LW if you want them to be a marine killer, and they are synapse.
18) Hormagants (20 Poison). Fill the same role as Raveners, Shrikes, and Dimachaeron, but can't deal with vehicles as effectively. Still, they are a good screen, tarpit, and objective scorer.
19) Warriors (3 with BS). You might want to take a unit of these for Syanpse. Not a bad choice.
Here are a few units that can work, but are taking things away from your list.
Spoiler:
20) Genestealers. A large brood infiltrated onto midfield ruins, and congalined back to a malanthrope. They serve the same purpose as Dimachaeron, Raveners, and Shrikes, but are more fragile.
21) Tervigon HQ. You just get so very little bang for your buck. He is about as good a support unit as a Zoenthrope, and about as threatening as a Mawloc without deep strike. He also steals the Tyrannocyte away from your dakkafex and TFex. Probably drop the Tfex if you take a Tervigon.
22) Tervigon Troop. See above, but even worse because you've got to take more Termagants, and thus are cutting back on other things.
23) Biovores. These are great, but without LAN they aren't as great, and they take a HS away from something better.
24) Hive Guard. Too little fire power, too many points, steal an elite slot.
25) Tyrant Guard (AG, 1 or 2 with Crushing Claws). A surprisingly good unit, but it steals the Tyrannocyte and doesn't contribute until turn 3.
26) Lictors. Take an elite slot, and work best where there are many units of them.
I would avoid most other units.
Here is the 1500 point list that I've run successfully in my last 4 Highlander test games.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I just bought a swarm, and to be honest I think hormagaunts are worthless. Literally models to be put on the table and taken off. (at least in my local meta.) Should I instead put the extra flesh borers I have on them? Every time I use termagants they at least do something before a hellhound tank shocks them off the board and then flames a squad of genestealers.
It's not a bad conversion, I built 10x Devilgaunts, and they look pretty good. I have very good luck with Hormagaunts myself. So it could be the "meta", or how you use them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Benlisted wrote: So I'm going to a highlander tournament in a few months (with the added caveats of no troop replication until you've taken all troops, no LoW, and critically no formations). I've considered a few options for a force - a deep striking one seems hard to pull off - I have a mawloc, one tyrannocyte, and something outflanking with HC unless I want to shell out for a trygon. A rushy one seems fun but I'm unsure of the practicality of running big units of gargoyles, hormas, shrikes and genes. So that leaves me a more balanced approach.
I guess my question is, what do people consider best in the codex in this sort of situation (and if you only had one tyrannocyte, what would you want in it)? Things change considerably with only one flyrant allowed, notably with a deficit in the anti-armour department. My present list of must-haves includes a flyrant, tervigon, mawloc and biovores, though a crone could potentially be nice too.
Not advocating you take them, but don't Genestealers have Outflank, as an option?
My goal is to try to get out 1 review a day until this tactica is compelted (that is, if I am not working on a battle report). Still looking for volunteers if anyone would like to do a review of any of the units listed on p. 240.
Mucolid: (by jy2)
The mucolid is very important to the Tyranid army, especially if you want to run a Maximum Threat Overload (MTO) type of Tyranid list. That is because they really allow you to maximize on the number of "threats" in the army. So what makes the mucolid a worthwhile investment for a Tyranid army?
1. This guy is the cheapest troop choice in the whole army (and maybe in the whole game as well!). Each one is only 15-pts and satisfy your troop choice, so only 30-pts to fulfill your minimum amount of troops in a standard Combined-Arms Detachment. You can't get any better/cheaper than that.
2. It is a purely sacrificial unit and does not hurt your army in any way when it dies (unless you actually have models near it....just make sure to keep your models at a slight distance). It does not give up any victory points if slain.
3. It makes for a good denial unit. Deepstrike it onto an objective and dare your opponent's troops to come take it. It has the potential to easily kill far greater in points than its cost.
4. It can actually hit enemy flyers. While that may not entirely be necessary, still, the ability may come into use for a flyer that stops near an objective to drop off some troops.
5. It will actually draw some enemy firepower. That means less firepower against the rest of the army. And with 3 Wounds plus Shrouded, it may actually survive!
Now what are its drawbacks?
1. Cannot score nor contest. Basically, the enemy can actually choose to ignore it as long as they don't care about the objective that it is on.
2. It is slow. It won't be able to catch up to anything that attempts to get away from it.
So despite the major drawback of not being able to claim or contest objectives, it is cheap enough that most people just won't care. It is especially worth considering/taking if you are running the Shield of Baal Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment or if you want to build a MTO list with scoring only as an afterthought.
I was doodling around this AM, and I saw that Leviathan is an ideal way to use Tervigon. No need to pay a Termagant "tax", and you can still run 2 or 3 Winged Tyrants.(with a Formation)
Heavy: Dakkafex, or two
Heavy: Tyranofex, Thorax Hive (Electro), Adrenal
Heavy: Mawloc
Elite: Zoey Brood, x2
Elite: Veno, x1 or x2
Elite: Veno, as above Obviously x2 Malanthropes would replace all that and make the Warriors less needed..
Toss in a Pod, or two and this is 1500 or less.. Add some Chrome, like Ace and you can hit higher point levels (I'd start tossing in Ripper Swarms as well) this looks like a very flexible force, and the re-roll IB could be very handy.
I think I'd want to "pod" the Tervigon (and the Tyranofex ) but if you choose to walk it, then you need the extra Synapse from the Warriors even less, so you might turn them into Rippers (Tunneling)...
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Out of curiosity, is there any redeeming value in running a Tervigon/Termagant list anymore? Been tossing the idea around of using them as a mobile shield for a Bioblast Node. Probably run this at 1000pts or so.
Yes. The tervie+termagant IMO is still a good foundation for a primarily ground-based Tyranid army. As a matter of fact, someone recently won a tournament with a tervigon-based Tyranid list. I probably wouldn't run the combo at 1K (though just the tervigon is actually pretty good at lower points), but at 1500+, I've got no problems with it (the combo).
Deafbeats wrote: Hi I'm new to Tyranids, where can I find a place that has all the Tyranid supplements/formations in one place so I can track down and get them?
Deafbeats wrote: Hi I'm new to Tyranids, where can I find a place that has all the Tyranid supplements/formations in one place so I can track down and get them?
Icculus wrote: So I was going to make a new thread to discuss this, but i figured there were enough Ork threads out there. I wanted to hear from some tyranid players about how you counter orks, and things in the ork codex that give you trouble.
What does the Tyranid vs Ork matchup involve and how would one prepare for either side of that battle?
Tyranids excel in dealing with light armor (i.e. trukks). We have problems against heavier army (battle wagons) but can still hurt them with side and rear shots as well as with haywire templates (electroshock grubs on our flyrants).
We have the volume-of-fire and enough blasts to deal with hordes of orks. However, we will have difficulty against massed 2+ units a la MANz. Traditionally, our MC's will fold in combat against massed Power Klaws, with the exception of the dimachaeron. However, the problem will be for the PK's to reach our MC's, who are either flying or screened out by our gribblies. Against a unit like the dimachaeron, do not charge him with your elite units like nobs or MANz. Instead, it's better to tie him up with loads of ork boyz instead (the dima has got a boatload of Insta-death attacks).
As already mentioned by someone above, you need to bring something to deal with our flyrants, which is our most versatile and dangerous unit. If you can deal with them, then you've got a chance. If you can't, then orks will have a hard time against Tyranids.
barnowl wrote: I think the Warrior TROOP choice in deathstorm is a little under rated. While it is a CC unit, it has some nice perks and takes a standard FOC instead of a being a Formation. Infested Ruin is not a bad, basic free bonus rule for them. They still assault at Int in terrain, and make all Ruins in 12" DT for non-nid factions.
The other two FOC units are bit of a let down, but the total formation is pretty solid with Stelath, (shrouded stealers), and PE.
I can see the Phodian Hive Warriors surprising an unsuspecting opponent, but overall, lack of mobility is what really makes them unappealing to me. Well, that and the cost. If you want to give them mobility, you need to give them a tyrannocyte spore, which makes an already expensive unit even more costly. For the price, they lack the resiliency and offensive output that I look for in an assault unit. And because the unit is so small, they lack the little things that I usually look for in an assault unit, like being able to multi-assault units that are further apart, being able to daisy-chain back into malan/venomthrope range and being able to deal with 2+ save units.
BTW, I believe they only assault at regular Init when going through ruins. Against any other type of difficult terrain, they still attack at I1.
pinecone77 wrote: I was doodling around this AM, and I saw that Leviathan is an ideal way to use Tervigon. No need to pay a Termagant "tax", and you can still run 2 or 3 Winged Tyrants.(with a Formation)
Heavy: Dakkafex, or two
Heavy: Tyranofex, Thorax Hive (Electro), Adrenal
Heavy: Mawloc
Elite: Zoey Brood, x2
Elite: Veno, x1 or x2
Elite: Veno, as above Obviously x2 Malanthropes would replace all that and make the Warriors less needed..
Toss in a Pod, or two and this is 1500 or less.. Add some Chrome, like Ace and you can hit higher point levels (I'd start tossing in Ripper Swarms as well) this looks like a very flexible force, and the re-roll IB could be very handy.
I think I'd want to "pod" the Tervigon (and the Tyranofex ) but if you choose to walk it, then you need the extra Synapse from the Warriors even less, so you might turn them into Rippers (Tunneling)...
Yeah, the HFL detachment is a good way to get in a tervigon without paying the termagant tax and still keeping your dual flyrants.
I also like the tactic of putting your tervigon in a tyrannocyte. However, if you do this, I've got 2 suggestions:
1. Give him crushing claws to make him a threat to enemy transports.
2. Make sure you've got Synapse covered for your backfield units.
Icculus wrote: So I was going to make a new thread to discuss this, but i figured there were enough Ork threads out there. I wanted to hear from some tyranid players about how you counter orks, and things in the ork codex that give you trouble.
What does the Tyranid vs Ork matchup involve and how would one prepare for either side of that battle?
I've played Orks twice in the past few months with tournament lists.
One batrep where horde orks faced my four tyrants is here, its round 4
As you can see, the massed green tide is still relatively easy to whittle down with 4 tyrants (let alone the now potential 5). In my other game, I faced a stompa and the ork tractor beam guns...those are actual threats. Getting grounded in front of an ork horde is no fun. More bodies are not a solution for you unfortunately, only dedicated AA units.
Benlisted wrote: So I'm going to a highlander tournament in a few months (with the added caveats of no troop replication until you've taken all troops, no LoW, and critically no formations). I've considered a few options for a force - a deep striking one seems hard to pull off - I have a mawloc, one tyrannocyte, and something outflanking with HC unless I want to shell out for a trygon. A rushy one seems fun but I'm unsure of the practicality of running big units of gargoyles, hormas, shrikes and genes. So that leaves me a more balanced approach.
I guess my question is, what do people consider best in the codex in this sort of situation (and if you only had one tyrannocyte, what would you want in it)? Things change considerably with only one flyrant allowed, notably with a deficit in the anti-armour department. My present list of must-haves includes a flyrant, tervigon, mawloc and biovores, though a crone could potentially be nice too.
Lets start with things you need.
Spoiler:
1) Dakkaflyrant w/ Hive commander. He's got to carry the load with anti-air, and anti Mech.
2) Malanthrope. You need him to keep you MC's alive. Midfield Synapse.
3) Crone. Helps the flyrant out with anti-air and anti mech.
4) Dakkafex. One of the more versatile units in the codex. Does everything well. You might consider 2, but 1 fits in the Tyrannocyte.
5) Gargoyles (20 or so). The best tarpit in the game. An excellent screening unit. These neutralize threats and let the rest of your army do work.
6) Termagants (20 with 10 Devourers). This is usually what you want to outflank. It can threaten vehicles, infantry, and even some MC's in a pinch.
7) Zoenthrope. Warp charge battery, backfield synapse, and psychic support unit. Really good bang for your buck.
8) Tyrannocyte. You are going to want to put something in here, just got to decide what. Thankfully, you can do this as a gametime decision, even after you opponent deploys, if he deploys first.
The next group are things I recommend, but aren't required.
Spoiler:
9) Venomthrope. Without being able to run a flying circus, you will need a little help for the malanthrope keeping your MC's Alive.
10) Hormagants(10). If you are running Maelstrom this is a no brainer. If you are running Eternal war, you might consider rippers instead.
11) Tyrannofex (Acid spray, E.Grubs). This is normally what goes in the tyrannocyte. He is a walking linebreaker.
12) Exocrine. He helps out with things that the rest of the army struggles with. A Mawloc could fill this role, but if so you probably want to up your Hormagants to 20 to give you another tarpit to help out against MC's. If running Maelstrom, go Mawloc instead.
Now you are making serious choices. You might have to give up something above to fit these things into your list, but they might be worth it.
Spoiler:
13) Mawloc. If there were 4 heavy slots available, this would be in the category above. But, it just doesn't bring quite as much to your army as a TFex or Exocrine unless you are running Maelstrom.
14) Dimachaeron. Highlander favors MSU a bit. Dimachaerons struggles against MSU. But he can kill enemy MC's if they don't kill him first. He can kill vehicles and infantry blobs. If only he moved 12", or had shooting enough to contribute for turn 1 and 2 when he is contributing nothing to your army. You don't want to put him in the Tyrannocyte unless you also take a Comms Relay, because nothing is sadder than a dedicated close combat bad ass that gets his 1st charge on turn 5.
15) Rippers. If playing eternal war, you can consider subbing them in for Hormagants above. Hormagants give you lots more options, and support the rest of your army. Adding them as a 3rd troop to fill the last 50 points isn't a bad idea.
16) Raveners. These serve much the same role as a Dimachaeron, but they move 12" ignoring terrain, and can't get ID by one lucky swing.
17) Shrikes. Like Ravers, but a tad more expensive because you've got to take Adrenal Glands for Fleet. On the plus side, for a few more points they get grenades, and you can take BS + LW if you want them to be a marine killer, and they are synapse.
18) Hormagants (20 Poison). Fill the same role as Raveners, Shrikes, and Dimachaeron, but can't deal with vehicles as effectively. Still, they are a good screen, tarpit, and objective scorer.
19) Warriors (3 with BS). You might want to take a unit of these for Syanpse. Not a bad choice.
Here are a few units that can work, but are taking things away from your list.
Spoiler:
20) Genestealers. A large brood infiltrated onto midfield ruins, and congalined back to a malanthrope. They serve the same purpose as Dimachaeron, Raveners, and Shrikes, but are more fragile.
21) Tervigon HQ. You just get so very little bang for your buck. He is about as good a support unit as a Zoenthrope, and about as threatening as a Mawloc without deep strike. He also steals the Tyrannocyte away from your dakkafex and TFex. Probably drop the Tfex if you take a Tervigon.
22) Tervigon Troop. See above, but even worse because you've got to take more Termagants, and thus are cutting back on other things.
23) Biovores. These are great, but without LAN they aren't as great, and they take a HS away from something better.
24) Hive Guard. Too little fire power, too many points, steal an elite slot.
25) Tyrant Guard (AG, 1 or 2 with Crushing Claws). A surprisingly good unit, but it steals the Tyrannocyte and doesn't contribute until turn 3.
26) Lictors. Take an elite slot, and work best where there are many units of them.
I would avoid most other units.
Here is the 1500 point list that I've run successfully in my last 4 Highlander test games.
Carnifex (2 TL-Devourers)
Exocrine
Tyrannofex (AS, E.Grubs) <- usually rides in the tyrannocyte
I'm 4-0 with 3 tablings so far running this list, but I think my opponents are still learning Highlander, so its not a panacea.
Thanks for the info! I admit I wasn't really sold on the terribleness of the Tervigon (I was gonna run him with Miasma Cannon so he had something to do on backfield, and just enlarge my outflanking gaunts somewhat) - but turns out the tourney isn't actually allowing you to summon/spawn units unless you have no copy of that unit before, or if you'd be summoning a troops choice, if you've taken EVERY other troop. So I'd have to pay a massive tax to make it work, so not gonna run one .
Is the Dakkafex really that good without AG and usually not in a pod? I can see its versatility in killing stuff, but it's just so slow.. I guess it makes a nice defender for the mid of your line though.
I am pretty sold on the Crone and Gargoyles though, will definitely be giving them a shot.
What do you think about more Zoanthropes in the brood to threaten tougher vehicles more? Since we really are short on Anti-Armour in highlander.
The deathstorm formation is so close to being good, but it just misses the mark. gakky wargear across the board really kills it. If the Genestealers had been naked, saving 32 pts, the warriors just been ST/RC/TS/AG to save 40 pts, then the carnifex dropping the bioplasma/IWND to save another 35 pts, the whole formation would still be less than amazing, but the units wouldn't be bloated with 20% of erroneous wargear.
Benlisted wrote: Thanks for the info! I admit I wasn't really sold on the terribleness of the Tervigon (I was gonna run him with Miasma Cannon so he had something to do on backfield, and just enlarge my outflanking gaunts somewhat) - but turns out the tourney isn't actually allowing you to summon/spawn units unless you have no copy of that unit before, or if you'd be summoning a troops choice, if you've taken EVERY other troop. So I'd have to pay a massive tax to make it work, so not gonna run one .
Is the Dakkafex really that good without AG and usually not in a pod? I can see its versatility in killing stuff, but it's just so slow.. I guess it makes a nice defender for the mid of your line though.
I am pretty sold on the Crone and Gargoyles though, will definitely be giving them a shot.
The Dakkafex is good. If he isn't in a pod, he has to run for a turn to get into range. But if he is in a pod, he doesn't arrive until 2 anyways.
I don't usually give Dakkafexes AG, because they tend to die pretty easy, and making them more expensive isn't all that desirable. They do the lionshare of their damage in the shooting phase anyways. As you say, he is a midfield unit. Get him to the middle of the board, and exert board control from there.
Benlisted wrote: What do you think about more Zoanthropes in the brood to threaten tougher vehicles more? Since we really are short on Anti-Armour in highlander.
The most important thing is that zoanthropes aren't a very good anti-tank unit. There are too many failure points for them to be effective. Psychic test, Deny the Witch, roll to hit, roll to pen, roll cover / invul, roll on pen table. They don't get much better with larger units because they still only generate 2 warp dice, and a failure on the psychic test or Deny the Witch will hose them. You will cast whatever power they roll more often then warp Lance. The reason you need him though is the Flyrant. If you happen to roll an important power like warp lance on the flyrant you will need the zoey's extra warp dice to get it off. Also he gives you another roll for catalyst, or Onslaught which can be used to get a Dakkafex in range on turn 1.
They are a backfield synapse and support unit. A brood of 1 does that just as well as a brood of 2.
If you have a Flyrant, A crone, Outflanking Devilgants, a Dakkafex, an Exocrine, a tyrannocyte, and a TFex with E.Grubs you probably have enough anti-armor for Highlander. Remember, just like you can't take as much anti-armor, they can't take as much armor.
Tyran wrote: If they had gave us the option to select the wargear of the units, then it would have been a solid formation and solid units.
If you could select the wargear it'd be one of the best formations available to us. A 20 man stealer squad with stealth+shrouding+PE would be -extremely- powerful, as well as a dakkafex (probably in a pod) with PE and stealth, and 3 warriors with a BS, stealth and PE.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I just bought a swarm, and to be honest I think hormagaunts are worthless. Literally models to be put on the table and taken off. (at least in my local meta.) Should I instead put the extra flesh borers I have on them? Every time I use termagants they at least do something before a hellhound tank shocks them off the board and then flames a squad of genestealers.
Tank Shocking Fearless units isn't that useful...
The termagants outflanked and were not in synapse due to my tyrant being cooked, he tank shocked another outflanking squad that did have synapse and made them bunch up becasue they were fearless, then flamed them.
I'm trying to figure out what to fill out how to fill out my last 250 points for my local escalation league. The league ends at 1750 and we are actually only at the 1000 point make, so I can still make some changes but I'm pretty confident in my 1250 and 1500 point choices.
Rules: No LOW, fortifications, Fighter Ace, formations. Single CAD (event started before Leviathan came out so I'm on the old Tyranid CAD). Can add to existing units (upgrades + additional models) but can't remove.
My list is:
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
The last 250 I'm not so sure on. The 2 I have been thinking about are:
1. Mawloc, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade, Regen for my Warlord Tyrant
2. Exocrine, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade
Any help would be greatly appreciated. My opponents vary a lot. Orks, Sisters, SM, CSM, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons.
This battle report is not for the squeamish and includes scenes of swearing, foot-stomping, fist-waving and cruelty to mini's. (However, no actual mini's were harmed in the writing of this report.) If you are looking for a report which shows great narrative, fluffy battles, the finer side of gaming and great comraderie, then LEAVE NOW! If you are looking for no-holds-barred, hardcore, stomp-your-opponent-to-the-mud action, then continue. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
So there's been an influx of material/formations for Tyranids which, in my opinion, have just catapulted them from a middling army all the way up the stratosphere. Tyranids are no longer an afterthought of an army in competitive play. First with the release of the new Forgeworld Tyranid book and accompanying models, then with the release of a plethora of new models (that should have been included with the codex in the very first place!) and now with the release of the Shield of Baal supplement, Tyranids have just shot up the competitive ladder into top-tier territory. Yes, the newest supplement, the Shield of Baal, will be a meta-changing release as it has just injected another top-tier build to the tournament scene.
I've ran it once already against Grant and his Eldar:
However, this time, my Pentyrant Tyranids may have met their match. This will probably their toughest test. Ever. Period. Not only am I playing against Spam Adam and his slightly-tailored Tau, but I am playing against it in extremely hostile conditions. Adam, a fellow Team 0 Comp teammate of mine, is a very experienced and good player with his Tau. Now he's not quite up there with Justin Cook's Tau, but believe it or not, I have never been able to beat his Tau with my Tyranids before. Adam took his Tau to the Bay Area Open GT 2014 and took 4th place Overall there. So not only am I playing against an army and general that I have never beaten (not with my Tyranids at least, though I've beaten him plenty of times with my other armies before), but I am playing against him with a tailored list.
I mentioned earlier that I was playing in hostile conditions. So what did I mean by that? I truly needed the right psychic powers against his army. With the right powers, I stood a chance. Without, it would be an uphill battle for sure. I needed Catalyst. Out of 10 psychic powers, I only got it once. I really could have used the Horror. Nope. Not even once in 10 tries. Paroxysm would have helped tremendously....only 1. So what did I get? Mainly Warp Blast and Psychic Scream. Aha! Psychic Scream works well against the low Leadership Tau, right? That was what I thought. Unfortunately, throughout the game, I only managed to cause 1W with it out of maybe 10 LD tests! And Warp Blast, well, it did a grand total of only 1 Hull Point of damage all game. Now this is a little foreshadowing, but basically, my psychic powers did jack and squat (though Catalyst was useful).
But that isn't nearly as bad as what my opponent got for his Warlord Trait. For his Warlord Trait, he got Master of Bullsh*t....ahem, I mean Master of Ambush. He also got 1st turn!!! Oh f*ck! I knew that this game had the potential to be very lopsided. The last time he got MoA and 1st turn, he practically tabled Blackmoor at the BAO by Turn 2. He actually got this combo (MoA + 1st Turn) against my Seekerstar daemons once before. He then proceeded to give my daemons the worst beating they have ever had. By the ways, Adam can potentially infiltrate 5 units. Yes, that's right....friggin' 5 units! Warlord (buffcommander) + unit (either broadsides or markerdrones), 3 riptides and Shadowsun + broadsides (Shadowsun has Infiltrate). That's basically his entire army!!!
If I can manage to pull off a win in such adverse conditions and against an army designed specifically to beat mine, then I will proclaim for a fact that my Pentyrant Tyranids may just be one of the most powerful armies currently. However, that is going to be a big IF.
1. Hold Your Objective 1.
2. Hold Your Objective 2.
3. Hold Opponent's Objective 1.
4. Hold Opponent's Objective 2.
5. Destroy an enemy unit.
6. Destroy an enemy unit.
Tertiary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, 1-pt each
That description had me on the edge of my seat! Very very interested to see how this turns out. Tyranids and Tau are my only two armies, and I'm always interested with where they sit competitively and how they match up.
My head says the Tau win it, but my heart (and my love of storytelling) says the Tyranids find a way to pull it off. Either way this is gonna be a huge hurdle for the Pentyrant list!
Tyran wrote: I expect the Tau to win that one, that's just to many skyfire.
I generally agree. Although my main TAC list (Living Artillery) would do just fine against that tau list. No Skyrays at all is such a huge boon to Tyranids, and Biovores would deal with the Marker Lights with ease.
I'm trying to figure out what to fill out how to fill out my last 250 points for my local escalation league. The league ends at 1750 and we are actually only at the 1000 point make, so I can still make some changes but I'm pretty confident in my 1250 and 1500 point choices.
Rules: No LOW, fortifications, Fighter Ace, formations. Single CAD (event started before Leviathan came out so I'm on the old Tyranid CAD). Can add to existing units (upgrades + additional models) but can't remove.
My list is:
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
The last 250 I'm not so sure on. The 2 I have been thinking about are:
1. Mawloc, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade, Regen for my Warlord Tyrant
2. Exocrine, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade
Any help would be greatly appreciated. My opponents vary a lot. Orks, Sisters, SM, CSM, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons.
Well, the big 'hole" I see is a lack of Shrouding. So I would look there. If you are cool with that lack, the I say go Wild. Toss in a Dakkafex, and two Zoeys in Broods of one that gives 4 more WC, and two more rolls on Powers of the Hive Mind!
If I had to offer some advice, I would say a Venomthrope in a Bunker with Comms relay, since you'll have at least 4 units in reserve. That's 120, so for the next 130 points I would throw in a Mawloc and drop 10 points, probably in a Stinger Salvo off a Crone. As mentioned above, the lack of shrouding sticks out like a sore thumb.
Tyran wrote: I expect the Tau to win that one, that's just to many skyfire.
I generally agree. Although my main TAC list (Living Artillery) would do just fine against that tau list. No Skyrays at all is such a huge boon to Tyranids, and Biovores would deal with the Marker Lights with ease.
This is the problem with Flyrant spam imo, it can hold its own pound for pound with the Living Artillery builds against most match ups and even do a little bit better against some, and there is no really bad match up for Living Artillery builds that isn't just as bad for Tyradactyl style builds, a bunch of Flyers have an obvious weakness against anything with plentiful Skyfire. I think this is what makes LAN the Nids one of best TAC build and FMCs just a little bit less equipped to take on everything.
I'm trying to figure out what to fill out how to fill out my last 250 points for my local escalation league. The league ends at 1750 and we are actually only at the 1000 point make, so I can still make some changes but I'm pretty confident in my 1250 and 1500 point choices.
Rules: No LOW, fortifications, Fighter Ace, formations. Single CAD (event started before Leviathan came out so I'm on the old Tyranid CAD). Can add to existing units (upgrades + additional models) but can't remove.
My list is:
Spoiler:
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
Tyrant - Wings, 2x Devourers, E. Grubs
The last 250 I'm not so sure on. The 2 I have been thinking about are:
1. Mawloc, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade, Regen for my Warlord Tyrant
2. Exocrine, +1 Zoanthrope w/ Neurothrope upgrade
Any help would be greatly appreciated. My opponents vary a lot. Orks, Sisters, SM, CSM, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons.
You're missing one of the most important units in the game (other than the hive tyrant) - the malanthrope.
I'd go with:
Malanthrope
Mawloc
You have 25-pts left for wargear and whatnot.
BTW, I'd break up your brood of 2 zoans to 2 units of 1 zoan.
Tyran wrote: I expect the Tau to win that one, that's just to many skyfire.
I generally agree. Although my main TAC list (Living Artillery) would do just fine against that tau list. No Skyrays at all is such a huge boon to Tyranids, and Biovores would deal with the Marker Lights with ease.
LAN won't work so well against this type of list and I will tell you why. Exocrine just does not have the range to any of the Tau units. He'd get shot down before he gets a chance to do anything. Biovores aren't really efficient vs 2+ units. There will be no soft targets (i.e. fire warriors) for them. As for markerlights, they can stay in the ruins and spread out like this to minimize the impact of the biovores:
Only against biovores, my opponent should put his buffmander in the center to soak up most of the damage with his 2+ 4W body and he should be spreading out his marker drones even more. They can always Jump-Shoot-Jump to spread out some more.
tag8833 wrote: Is an Imperial Bunker Tall enough to hide a flyrant behind? I've never seen one assembled, but am considering buying one.
I don't believe so. It looks like it is about 50-60% the height of a bastion only.
Tyran wrote: I expect the Tau to win that one, that's just to many skyfire.
I generally agree. Although my main TAC list (Living Artillery) would do just fine against that tau list. No Skyrays at all is such a huge boon to Tyranids, and Biovores would deal with the Marker Lights with ease.
This is the problem with Flyrant spam imo, it can hold its own pound for pound with the Living Artillery builds against most match ups and even do a little bit better against some, and there is no really bad match up for Living Artillery builds that isn't just as bad for Tyradactyl style builds, a bunch of Flyers have an obvious weakness against anything with plentiful Skyfire. I think this is what makes LAN the Nids one of best TAC build and FMCs just a little bit less equipped to take on everything.
Hmmm....I was beginning to wonder where SHUPPET went, after not posting for about a week here. Welcome back, friend.
LAN is good, but it is not top-tier good. It will never be able to reach the levels that a Pentyrant list could. It's like comparing a Mustang to a Ferrari.
@jy2
Are you so sure about the LAN? It wasn't too long ago that the Lictor was considered garbage, and now even you are starting to stick it in here and there. It may just depend on how it's applied as to whether it's top-tier or not.
Sinful Hero wrote: @jy2
Are you so sure about the LAN? It wasn't too long ago that the Lictor was considered garbage, and now even you are starting to stick it in here and there. It may just depend on how it's applied as to whether it's top-tier or not.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that the LAN is bad. It's good. It just isn't top-tier good. Of course that could change thanks to the leviathan detachment with triple-Flyrants, but overall, LAN just doesn't bring what more Flyrants can to the army. Some of its weaknesses include:
1. It lacks mobility. It is basically a static gunline build, and we all know how those do nowadays.
2. It just doesn't have the resiliency. Biovores are pretty sturdy because you can hide them, but exocrines just don't have the durability to be a consistent contributor.
3. It is suboptimal against mech-spam. The biggest threat to mech is the exocrine and he can easily be taken care of.
4. The warriors are a tax that doesn't really contribute offensively to the army. They are ok as a support unit to provide Synapse to the backfield and maybe take an objective. However, the malanthrope is better at that role than the warriors.
If you want proof, just look at most of the top pre-Leviathan Tyranid armies. They are either self-allied to bring in an extra flyrant, Skyblight which also brings in another flyrant or running the Barbed Hierodule.
Now the Leviathan detachment has made LAN better. Then again, it's made every other Tyranid build better as well.
To LAN's defense, it also isn't a "build" per se, so much as it is a reasonably priced tool that does a specific function reasonably well.
Depending on an evolving meta, it can either be excellent in a TAC list, or down-right exceptional depending on opponent, especially as 'Nids have the cheap mobility to hold objectives, in abundance, meaning the points in LAN are far from wasted. :-)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Incidentally, with more time since the rules came out, has anyone had any experience with the Neurothrope in a real-world setting?
I know it isn't optimal, but I constantly have this sick desire to plunk four Zoeys and a Neuro in a Tyrannocyst. I know it is expensive, I know it is WC inefficient. And yet, I just want to see my opponent when I throw a Spirit Leech at a reasonably tough elite unit of Termies, etc... and maybe generate a free Warp Lance which throws a bunch of shots at a Landraider.
I've done the math... and I know it leaves soooo many gates to the dice-Gods... but I think I need to run it until it works just the once, so I can see it happen. :-p
Also, how is our Tyrannocyst-tactica shaking out? Are we almost all in agreement that they are perfect Dakkafex delivery systems, or is anything else just as viable in them? I was thinking a Tyrannofex with dual-templates might be able to do some good work in one.
Sinful Hero wrote: @jy2
Are you so sure about the LAN? It wasn't too long ago that the Lictor was considered garbage, and now even you are starting to stick it in here and there. It may just depend on how it's applied as to whether it's top-tier or not.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that the LAN is bad. It's good. It just isn't top-tier good. Of course that could change thanks to the leviathan detachment with triple-Flyrants, but overall, LAN just doesn't bring what more Flyrants can to the army. Some of its weaknesses include:
1. It lacks mobility. It is basically a static gunline build, and we all know how those do nowadays.
I don't think you know what a static gunline is, or you are using the termanology wrong, or you just don't play ground nids much. It might not entirely have jump packs or wings but it doesn't automatically mean the style of play is walling up in a static gunline. They are pushing up the board as fast as they can, full move every turn thanks to move through cover, running if they aren't in range. Running 6 rolls for Onslaught, and a re-roll for Master of Ambush to help push a unit up the table even quicker, aiming to get within that 18" spot of death where your army can outfirepower practically any army in the game, and threatening assaults to extend that advantage further. This is somewhat anecdotal, but practicing and playing against top tier builds, there isn't a single top tier build that I wasn't at the very least evenly trading games with.
jy2 wrote: 2. It just doesn't have the resiliency. Biovores are pretty sturdy because you can hide them, but exocrines just don't have the durability to be a consistent contributor.
I guess the case could be argued that Exocrines themselves aren't really durable, but with a TL S7 AP2 pinning blast for 170 points the point of the unit is that they put out enough hurt to make it worth it. That being said, while they are one of the less efficient points per wound unit in the dex, they do still pay less per wound than a Carnifex, with 6" extra range and more damage output vs a large selection of targets, Exocrine should be a consistent contributor imo. Comparing units based on durability alone is silly, otherwise we may as say dual CAD for 6 Mawloc's is a better HS option than anything we have available.
jy2 wrote: 3. It is suboptimal against mech-spam. The biggest threat to mech is the exocrine and he can easily be taken care of.
I run 2 Flyrants + 4 Carnifexes and room for more. I don't think this is the case at all for LAN style builds, at least no more so than Flyrants. And if this is how we are going to drive our points "Flyrant's are suboptimal against Skyfire spam. Skyfire takes away one of the armies largest advantages that it pays for much for in the price of wings.
jy2 wrote: 4. The warriors are a tax that doesn't really contribute offensively to the army. They are ok as a support unit to provide Synapse to the backfield and maybe take an objective. However, the malanthrope is better at that role than the warriors.
Bastion + Malanthrope is a tax that doesn't contribute offensively to the army either, and that costs double as much. Just saying, Warriors are one of the most cost effective Synapse providers in the dex and a TL Pinning Venom Cannon ain't bad neither, and on top of that they around double the damage output of your Biovores and Exocrines in blast mode. For 100 pts they are not what I'd ever describe as tax.
jy2 wrote: If you want proof, just look at most of the top pre-Leviathan Tyranid armies. They are either self-allied to bring in an extra flyrant, Skyblight which also brings in another flyrant or running the Barbed Hierodule.
For starters even if that was correct, that's not "proof", it's still completely anecdotal. As a poster above me said, if this is proof of ground Nids being just below top tier, I guess it's also proof that Lictor's are absolute bottom of the barrel trash tier since it wasn't long ago that this was their position in every competitive list. How many people do or do not do something has no actual affect on the power level or capability of a unit, that is a seperate category of judgement. That being said, I'm pretty sure this statement is far from the truth and seems more centered around FLG meta. Self allied for a Flyrant or running a Barbed Heriodule? The only person I've ever seen run a Heirodule in a tourney is InControl. Your description of the "meta" reads a lot more like a description of what you think is the best list, with an exception added in for your pal's best list as well. I don't think it's very accurate as a lot of people like the ground Nids competitively.
Flyrants enmasse have a lot of positive match ups and aren't a terrible TAC comer, but simply have more negative match ups than ground Nids.
I don't think you know what a static gunline is, or you are using the termanology wrong, or you just don't play ground nids much. It might not entirely have jump packs or wings but it doesn't automatically mean the style of play is walling up in a static gunline. They are pushing up the board as fast as they can, full move every turn thanks to move through cover, running if they aren't in range. Running 6 rolls for Onslaught, and a re-roll for Master of Ambush to help push a unit up the table even quicker, aiming to get within that 18" spot of death where your army can outfirepower practically any army in the game, and threatening assaults to extend that advantage further. This is somewhat anecdotal, but practicing and playing against top tier builds, there isn't a single top tier build that I wasn't at the very least evenly trading games with.
Care to enlighten me how Biovores that can't shoot if they move are not a static gunline? The Warriors that have to babysit them thus also not being able to move? So 1 of the 7 units in the formation moves up the board (losing a 1 BS and the Re-Roll of the Warriors while he does it) and that qualifies it to not be a static gunline?
I like the LAN but it is a static gunline.
"Full move every turn thanks to move through cover" You may want to re-read that rule.
I don't think you know what a static gunline is, or you are using the termanology wrong, or you just don't play ground nids much. It might not entirely have jump packs or wings but it doesn't automatically mean the style of play is walling up in a static gunline. They are pushing up the board as fast as they can, full move every turn thanks to move through cover, running if they aren't in range. Running 6 rolls for Onslaught, and a re-roll for Master of Ambush to help push a unit up the table even quicker, aiming to get within that 18" spot of death where your army can outfirepower practically any army in the game, and threatening assaults to extend that advantage further. This is somewhat anecdotal, but practicing and playing against top tier builds, there isn't a single top tier build that I wasn't at the very least evenly trading games with.
Care to enlighten me how Biovores that can't shoot if they move are not a static gunline? The Warriors that have to babysit them thus also not being able to move? So 1 of the 7 units in the formation moves up the board (losing a 1 BS and the Re-Roll of the Warriors while he does it) and that qualifies it to not be a static gunline?
I like the LAN but it is a static gunline.
"Full move every turn thanks to move through cover" You may want to re-read that rule.
Flyrants enmasse have a lot of positive match ups and aren't a terrible TAC comer, but simply have more negative match ups than ground Nids.
Now I feel you're being contrary for the sake of it
Biovores are Assault 1, not heavy 1, so everything in the formation can move just fine. I play in a lower flyer meta mostly so flyrant spam will be stronger, but an hour a way I see a heavy flyer meta with enough skyfire or opposing flyers to make LAN the stronger lists.
I used a Hive tyrant Kit, used the Flying Tyrant Tail/body. The head is from the Venom/zoanthrope Box set. Arms are ST from Hormagants and a Trygon small ST for lowest arms, green stuff ofr the Sacs on the sides.
Barbed Hierodule
The base Size is same size as the actually Forge World base, it was a Cork Board with Harden wood on bottom for Potting Plants to sit on (I Copy the size from a friend and cut it out to size.
I used a Tervigon/Tyrannofex Kit with 2 Rupture Cannons, Hotglue for filler and Green stuff for Shaping.
Im new to Green Stuff FYI
Next Conversion will be a Harridan from Tygon and Hive Crones Box sets.
My Painting job is Prime white, paint red and Dip in Min Wax
I Really wanted to use the Malanthrope (not venoms lol) and the Barbed Hierodule. I used my Malanthrope in one game so far and I loved it!!!
I don't think you know what a static gunline is, or you are using the termanology wrong, or you just don't play ground nids much. It might not entirely have jump packs or wings but it doesn't automatically mean the style of play is walling up in a static gunline. They are pushing up the board as fast as they can, full move every turn thanks to move through cover, running if they aren't in range. Running 6 rolls for Onslaught, and a re-roll for Master of Ambush to help push a unit up the table even quicker, aiming to get within that 18" spot of death where your army can outfirepower practically any army in the game, and threatening assaults to extend that advantage further. This is somewhat anecdotal, but practicing and playing against top tier builds, there isn't a single top tier build that I wasn't at the very least evenly trading games with.
Care to enlighten me how Biovores that can't shoot if they move are not a static gunline? The Warriors that have to babysit them thus also not being able to move? So 1 of the 7 units in the formation moves up the board (losing a 1 BS and the Re-Roll of the Warriors while he does it) and that qualifies it to not be a static gunline?
I like the LAN but it is a static gunline.
Well I think it's counter intuitive, but just because a unit has 48" range doesn't mean you have to sit it backfield, you move it up behind the Warriors while they provide Synapse for units both ahead of and behind it. If anyone is playing Living Artillery or any style of Nids at all like a static gunline, it's not hard to see why they are getting bad results. We aren't Tau, and LAN is designed for a very aggressive style of build .
I don't see why I would move my squishy Biovores up the field for the sake of the Warriors shooting their guns. 48" is usually enough to shoot at what you please and when hidden behind a ruin you're going to be shooting stuff that can't shoot back.
Who said I was getting bad results? I specifically mentioned I liked the formation and I win more games than I lose with Tyranids. The question isn't "Is LAN bad" it's "Is it better than taking 1-2 extra Flyrants?" On a pure competitive stand point it's not.
Flyrants are one of if not the most cost effective units in the entire game, they have 1-2 counters at most and those would need to be list tailored. There is reason the majority of this thread (myself included) won't be running 5 of them.
Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
It seems to me the Flyers vs Grounders may be more meta-dependent than anything else. If your local plays heavy on anti-flyers, then obviously taking less flyers wastes the points they spent on skyfire options, but if skyfire and enemy flyers are scarce then spamming flyers yourself would be a better option.
One thing I'm not sure of is what happens when your ground lost comes up against heavy flyer spam- other than Flyrants Tyranids don't have much to hurt enemy flyers. They can dodge out of range of our Fexes, and nothing has skyfire. Do our TMC have the durability to ignore most flyers and take out the rest of their army?
@Amishprn88
And I have to add that's a sweet Malanthrope conversion.
My $0.02 as I love LAN is that even if Exocrine is less point-effective/durable wounds, both it, the Warriors, and Biovores frequently get ignored by opponents dealing with two Flyrants, and a couple Dakkafaxes dropped in by Tyrannocytes.
Its either the psychological play, or poor play, but in my experience people under-estimating the consistent work LAN does, usually just leave it alone to be a contributor all game long.
I've also noticed locally that another quirky 'Nid psychology trick is that Tervigons (especially Troop Tervigons) are disproportionate bullet-magnets. People get so sure that the resulting Synaptic Backlash will be worth it, that it feels like people just really want them dead, even at the expense of better targets. :-p
Edit: And emphasis on "consistent" work. The Exocrine and Biovore buffs from the Warriors in this formation shouldn't be over-sold. A lot of formations are about tricking FOCs, but this one outright takes two solid/above-average units, and makes them tremendously potent.
SHUPPET wrote: Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
Actually I would be interested to hear you spell them out. The two hardest counters to 5 Flyrants that I can think of would be Tau with a good dose of Skyfire/marker light support and Necron AV 13 wall with a couple flyers. Not that tyrants can't deal with av 13 but when you have 5-6 of them and a bunch of tesla, it gets tougher. Thankfully the template is auto allocated to the barge (take that CCB Lord!) but they're still a tough nut to crack. Neither of those lists is easy for a ground pound list. Frankly, I would much rather take my chances with pentyrants over any ground list in those two scenarios.
As has been said, though a pentyrant list is not without weaknesses, it is a great TAC list due to the incredible versatility of the Flyrant. There is almost nothing that it can't handle (or at least drown in wounds). Anything with LAN is absolutely going to be on a different power level than pentyrants because you're not just giving up two Flyrants - you're giving up three. Since LAN is a formation you cannot self-ally or bring in Leviathan at all (I mean you could run leviathan as your primary CAD but no obsec at all is a poor decision). There is nothing wrong with LAN - it is good, effective and will win you games. However, pentyrants are simply on a different level. They will win you tournaments. I don't think that there is a winning situation for an opponent trying to construct his army now. Tau and Necrons will be able to beat it, but most armies will fail to bring enough AA to deal with five Flyrants, whereas if they do bring enough, then they will be handicapped against the rest of the field because they will have devoted a disproportionate amount of their army towards a threat that they will not always see.
SHUPPET wrote: Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
Actually I would be interested to hear you spell them out. The two hardest counters to 5 Flyrants that I can think of would be Tau with a good dose of Skyfire/marker light support and Necron AV 13 wall with a couple flyers. Not that tyrants can't deal with av 13 but when you have 5-6 of them and a bunch of tesla, it gets tougher. Thankfully the template is auto allocated to the barge (take that CCB Lord!) but they're still a tough nut to crack. Neither of those lists is easy for a ground pound list. Frankly, I would much rather take my chances with pentyrants over any ground list in those two scenarios.
As has been said, though a pentyrant list is not without weaknesses, it is a great TAC list due to the incredible versatility of the Flyrant. There is almost nothing that it can't handle (or at least drown in wounds). Anything with LAN is absolutely going to be on a different power level than pentyrants because you're not just giving up two Flyrants - you're giving up three. Since LAN is a formation you cannot self-ally or bring in Leviathan at all (I mean you could run leviathan as your primary CAD but no obsec at all is a poor decision). There is nothing wrong with LAN - it is good, effective and will win you games. However, pentyrants are simply on a different level. They will win you tournaments. I don't think that there is a winning situation for an opponent trying to construct his army now. Tau and Necrons will be able to beat it, but most armies will fail to bring enough AA to deal with five Flyrants, whereas if they do bring enough, then they will be handicapped against the rest of the field because they will have devoted a disproportionate amount of their army towards a threat that they will not always see.
No OBSEC means less than you would think against the kinds of lists a Primary HiveFleet, and LAN would be strong against. How many squirly OBSEC troops of your opponents are going to get and stay in a back-field that has three Flyrants plus LAN (which already caters to anti-troop)?
I won't join the thinking that says Pentyrant isn't OMG OP crazy-sauce, but Leviathan Primary + Lan is hella strong.
SHUPPET wrote: Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
Actually I would be interested to hear you spell them out. The two hardest counters to 5 Flyrants that I can think of would be Tau with a good dose of Skyfire/marker light support and Necron AV 13 wall with a couple flyers. Not that tyrants can't deal with av 13 but when you have 5-6 of them and a bunch of tesla, it gets tougher. Thankfully the template is auto allocated to the barge (take that CCB Lord!) but they're still a tough nut to crack. Neither of those lists is easy for a ground pound list. Frankly, I would much rather take my chances with pentyrants over any ground list in those two scenarios.
As has been said, though a pentyrant list is not without weaknesses, it is a great TAC list due to the incredible versatility of the Flyrant. There is almost nothing that it can't handle (or at least drown in wounds). Anything with LAN is absolutely going to be on a different power level than pentyrants because you're not just giving up two Flyrants - you're giving up three. Since LAN is a formation you cannot self-ally or bring in Leviathan at all (I mean you could run leviathan as your primary CAD but no obsec at all is a poor decision). There is nothing wrong with LAN - it is good, effective and will win you games. However, pentyrants are simply on a different level. They will win you tournaments. I don't think that there is a winning situation for an opponent trying to construct his army now. Tau and Necrons will be able to beat it, but most armies will fail to bring enough AA to deal with five Flyrants, whereas if they do bring enough, then they will be handicapped against the rest of the field because they will have devoted a disproportionate amount of their army towards a threat that they will not always see.
No OBSEC means less than you would think against the kinds of lists a Primary HiveFleet, and LAN would be strong against. How many squirly OBSEC troops of your opponents are going to get and stay in a back-field that has three Flyrants plus LAN (which already caters to anti-troop)?
I won't join the thinking that says Pentyrant isn't OMG OP crazy-sauce, but Leviathan Primary + Lan is hella strong.
Well yeah, if you're ROFLstomping then of course it won't matter. But in a close game (lists of similar power levels, generals of similar competency) it actually does make all the difference. It's the difference between scoring and not. Without obsec, you can be denied the ability to score. You're literally giving those points over to your opponent. With it, you'll at least be denying them to your opponent if he has obsec, and keeping it if he doesn't. In close games, it often can be the difference maker.
Not downing on leviathan plus LAN. So many good options. But if you run into another list as good as yours run by a general as good as yourself, you are inherently playing at a disadvantage. Not the end of the world, but not my ideal scenario if I can avoid it.
SHUPPET wrote: Regardless I think they are both two very strong styles and I don't think massFlyrants are at all bad, and that the difference is power level is drastically different between the two style of builds. I just think that ground Nids slightly edges out Flyrants for TAC, while Flyrants can stomp a few match ups a bit harder, these are not match ups that LA can't beat either, I don't think the same can be said vice versa however as I think there is some clear cut counters to bringing 5 FMCs and I don't think I need to spell em out
Actually I would be interested to hear you spell them out. The two hardest counters to 5 Flyrants that I can think of would be Tau with a good dose of Skyfire/marker light support and Necron AV 13 wall with a couple flyers. Not that tyrants can't deal with av 13 but when you have 5-6 of them and a bunch of tesla, it gets tougher. Thankfully the template is auto allocated to the barge (take that CCB Lord!) but they're still a tough nut to crack. Neither of those lists is easy for a ground pound list. Frankly, I would much rather take my chances with pentyrants over any ground list in those two scenarios.
As has been said, though a pentyrant list is not without weaknesses, it is a great TAC list due to the incredible versatility of the Flyrant. There is almost nothing that it can't handle (or at least drown in wounds). Anything with LAN is absolutely going to be on a different power level than pentyrants because you're not just giving up two Flyrants - you're giving up three. Since LAN is a formation you cannot self-ally or bring in Leviathan at all (I mean you could run leviathan as your primary CAD but no obsec at all is a poor decision). There is nothing wrong with LAN - it is good, effective and will win you games. However, pentyrants are simply on a different level. They will win you tournaments. I don't think that there is a winning situation for an opponent trying to construct his army now. Tau and Necrons will be able to beat it, but most armies will fail to bring enough AA to deal with five Flyrants, whereas if they do bring enough, then they will be handicapped against the rest of the field because they will have devoted a disproportionate amount of their army towards a threat that they will not always see.
No OBSEC means less than you would think against the kinds of lists a Primary HiveFleet, and LAN would be strong against. How many squirly OBSEC troops of your opponents are going to get and stay in a back-field that has three Flyrants plus LAN (which already caters to anti-troop)?
I won't join the thinking that says Pentyrant isn't OMG OP crazy-sauce, but Leviathan Primary + Lan is hella strong.
Well yeah, if you're ROFLstomping then of course it won't matter. But in a close game (lists of similar power levels, generals of similar competency) it actually does make all the difference. It's the difference between scoring and not. Without obsec, you can be denied the ability to score. You're literally giving those points over to your opponent. With it, you'll at least be denying them to your opponent if he has obsec, and keeping it if he doesn't. In close games, it often can be the difference maker.
Not downing on leviathan plus LAN. So many good options. But if you run into another list as good as yours run by a general as good as yourself, you are inherently playing at a disadvantage. Not the end of the world, but not my ideal scenario if I can avoid it.
Most of the Pentrant list I am seeing are basicly not objective secured either. At most you have 2 ripper swarms, but usually I am seeing Muscaloids for all the required Troop choices which forgoes scoring completely. So not much difference in practice from the lists in use for OS.
Tyran wrote: I expect the Tau to win that one, that's just to many skyfire.
I generally agree. Although my main TAC list (Living Artillery) would do just fine against that tau list. No Skyrays at all is such a huge boon to Tyranids, and Biovores would deal with the Marker Lights with ease.
LAN won't work so well against this type of list and I will tell you why. Exocrine just does not have the range to any of the Tau units. He'd get shot down before he gets a chance to do anything. Biovores aren't really efficient vs 2+ units. There will be no soft targets (i.e. fire warriors) for them. As for markerlights, they can stay in the ruins and spread out like this to minimize the impact of the biovores:
Only against biovores, my opponent should put his buffmander in the center to soak up most of the damage with his 2+ 4W body and he should be spreading out his marker drones even more. They can always Jump-Shoot-Jump to spread out some more.
You are wrong for several reasons.
1) Markerlights are Heavy 1. So they can't move and shoot at full BS. If they want to use M-S-J, they are snap shooting. That is one of the many reasons taking them as a squad is worse idea than taking them joined to skyrays, or suites.
2) There are 3 threats in this list. #1 the marklight squad, #2, & #3 the Missileside squads. I have 5 way to deal with them in my standard TAC list. 1) Gargoyles & Hormagants. They are easy to tarpit, and have to waste turns shooting at the gargoyles or Gants less they get caught. Once Caught, they don't get free. 2) Biovores. They outrange the marker lights and Missilesides, and can stack wounds enough to take them out. A pinned squad of Broadsides is nearly as good as a dead one. 3) Crones. I run 2 of them. The Drool Cannon ignores cover, and Markerlight Armor. I can paint big swaths of dead markerlights on my 1st turn. They can also vector strike and ID Broadsides, but that usually doesn't happen until turn 2. 4) Flyrants, You are well versed in their abilities. 5) Dakkafex and Exocrine. These guys aren't involved for a while, starting to contribute on turn 2. But they do get a 2-3+ cover save in the interim. They pick up the pieces if the flyrants don't take care of business before dying.
3) Everything in my list is expendable. That Tau list is going to take care of 1-2 of the 5 threats to them, depending on 1st turn, and a few other factors. Most likely they alphastrike and kill a flyrant or a Malanthrope. Then before I can neutralize them they kill either the Gargoyles, or the other flyrant. That isn't a huge problem for me, because their markerlights are irreplaceable, once they are dead or tarpitted, the game is a breeze.
I've run my LAN list against Tau lists much like this. I've also run it against much more threatening tau lists that have skyrays and bursttides. 2 Skyfire burstideds, 2 Skyrays, and 3 Missilesides can usually beat me. This isn't that. This is far, far less threatening to a normal Tyranid TAC list, and also less threatening to your Flyrant spam. That doesn't mean you will have an easy time. You've got fewer threats in your list than I do in my LAN list, and each casualty taken is more meaningful because of your high cost units, and lack of redundancy. I've played the games, I've run the tests I know what this Tau list can do, and if I'm running my LAN list against it, I am not afraid. If I'm running my Barbed Heirodule list, its a tossup.
If this Tau list looks to you like a Tyranid Hard counter, I suggest you drop 1 Hive Tyrant for 2 squads of 20 Gargolyes, and try it out again. I think you will be surprised.
Ok, now that I just finished by battle report against Tau, I am back! I'll go over some of these comments and my thoughts on the LAN a little later. Again, you can find my report here:
1) Markerlights are Heavy 1. So they can't move and shoot at full BS. If they want to use M-S-J, they are snap shooting. That is one of the many reasons taking them as a squad is worse idea than taking them joined to skyrays, or suites.
Just a small correction before I go into more detail, but marker drones are relentless. It's a Tau thing with Tau jetpack units. They can move, shoot at full BS and then move again in the Assault phase.
1) Markerlights are Heavy 1. So they can't move and shoot at full BS. If they want to use M-S-J, they are snap shooting. That is one of the many reasons taking them as a squad is worse idea than taking them joined to skyrays, or suites.
Just a small correction before I go into more detail, but marker drones are relentless. It's a Tau thing with Tau jetpack units. They can move, shoot at full BS and then move again in the Assault phase.
Yep. You are correct. Jetpack unit type has relentless. I thought it was something conferred by suites (it is but not needed), but I was also being dumb on account of buffmander-lite wearing a suite and being in that unit.
Most of the Pentrant list I am seeing are basicly not objective secured either. At most you have 2 ripper swarms, but usually I am seeing Muscaloids for all the required Troop choices which forgoes scoring completely. So not much difference in practice from the lists in use for OS.
It's true that we're seeing Mucolids as required troops choices in some cases; however they can't score at all so that is even worse. The reason why some lists are able to go light on obsec is because our units are often small and easy to hide and thus more durable. But no matter what you do, a dearth of obsec still means that you will be playing some variant of "table or lose" at the end of the game if it is close. I am experimenting with a list that only has 2 obsec units, but it also has 6 small units that can score, as well as ample anti-infantry so that I can kill the enemy's troops. Especially when we have 40-70 point troop choices, there really is no reason not to take them and gain objective secured. You lose roughly 30 points per troop choice to gain that (and more wounds) plus actual offensive capability. Really very little downside unless downgrading your troops (and it is a downgrade) is the difference in adding another MC or something (ie with 3 ripper squads I can't fit in a Mawloc but with 2 and 1 Mucolid I can). In such a case, it can be worthwhile. But you won't see any lists with no obsec and all Mucolids win a tournament. Guaranteed. If you can't score, you will lose
Copied myself from Jy2's battle report thread because i feel it merits discussion here as well:
So I was looking at the new Blood Angel detachment of 2-16 elites and had a thought...
"Is allowing Unbound such a bad thing?"
When 7th first hit, my first knee jerk reaction (along with many other folks) was that Unbound lists have no place in 40K aside from narrative casual games. But, with the rate of releases we've seen along with the myriad of dataslates and new detachments, 40K lists are largely able to do whatever they want and remain "Bound". An Unbound list has no command benefits, or special rules tied to it like these detachments and formations do.
At this point, I think I'm ready to change my stance on unbound armies. I doubt that I'm among the majority of 40K players on this, but honestly looking at what we've seen GW is pushing us in that direction regardless.
I mean, look at Jy2's completely LVO legal list that contains 5 Flyrants! Unbound is basically already here and legal, for some armies.
I say either take off all restrictions on list building, just make sure points costs and FOCs are lined up, or make it so only 1 CAD and 1 Ally FOC are allowed per player. This middle of the road style of list building still heavily favors some armies over others at the list building stage.
tetrisphreak wrote: Copied myself from Jy2's battle report thread because i feel it merits discussion here as well:
So I was looking at the new Blood Angel detachment of 2-16 elites and had a thought...
"Is allowing Unbound such a bad thing?"
When 7th first hit, my first knee jerk reaction (along with many other folks) was that Unbound lists have no place in 40K aside from narrative casual games. But, with the rate of releases we've seen along with the myriad of dataslates and new detachments, 40K lists are largely able to do whatever they want and remain "Bound". An Unbound list has no command benefits, or special rules tied to it like these detachments and formations do.
At this point, I think I'm ready to change my stance on unbound armies. I doubt that I'm among the majority of 40K players on this, but honestly looking at what we've seen GW is pushing us in that direction regardless.
I mean, look at Jy2's completely LVO legal list that contains 5 Flyrants! Unbound is basically already here and legal, for some armies.
I say either take off all restrictions on list building, just make sure points costs and FOCs are lined up, or make it so only 1 CAD and 1 Ally FOC are allowed per player. This middle of the road style of list building still heavily favors some armies over others at the list building stage.
See I disagree with the premise of this statement. Whilst the amount of flexibility available has exploded recently, it is still inherently restrictive.
With the 2-16 elite detatchment, you still require a HQ and are very limited in which elite units you bring. Therefore, I feel unbound to be vastly less inhibiting and that is why is is generally frowned upon.
I will agree that these extreme detachments have some "limits". But when you look at things like venom spam DE with their 10 pt hq and 6 fast slots, or thunder wolf spam SW with 6 HQ slots, or even necron air, or pentyrant nids, or now a fully elite BA force -- the argument is there that spamming multiples of a really good, efficient unit is by and large possible for multiple armies. The natural response for a competitive environment should be to either allow it for everyone or restrict it for everyone. As it stands now it's not as balanced as it could be.
True unbound is not far away from simply allowing CTA allies. I think that the murder of the fluff is what causes many people to not want to allow those. Many detachments do now allow you to basically play unbound (with no obsec if you do desire). I don't see any of these lists as particularly strong (even pentyrant Nids are still going to bring some obsec in their CAD). Obsec definitely still matters, though perhaps not as much as it once did. But drop pod marine obsec spam is still a strong build no matter who it plays against. They still define the relevant "table or lose" motto that unbound/no obsec lists seem to live by.
I can see why people don't like the idea of unbound and CTA allies. Frankly, I'd like to try out Nids and Daemons in a tournament setting and see what happens. It's not like it's Daemons allied with Grey Knights (though you know that one special snowflake is going to bring that to a tournament as well). I don't think I'll ever be an advocate for true unbound at the tournament level however. All you're going to see is people spamming the most OP units from each book, and I have no doubt that a very strong list can be constructed when you can cover the weaknesses of one codex with the strengths of three other codecies. Deployment would be tough, but after that it's only a 1/6 chance of trouble, and that's only if a unit is within 6" of a trouble unit (CTA allies). It's really not as restrictive as most people think, especially if you have some alternative deployment methods.
tetrisphreak wrote: Copied myself from Jy2's battle report thread because i feel it merits discussion here as well:
So I was looking at the new Blood Angel detachment of 2-16 elites and had a thought...
"Is allowing Unbound such a bad thing?"
When 7th first hit, my first knee jerk reaction (along with many other folks) was that Unbound lists have no place in 40K aside from narrative casual games. But, with the rate of releases we've seen along with the myriad of dataslates and new detachments, 40K lists are largely able to do whatever they want and remain "Bound". An Unbound list has no command benefits, or special rules tied to it like these detachments and formations do.
At this point, I think I'm ready to change my stance on unbound armies. I doubt that I'm among the majority of 40K players on this, but honestly looking at what we've seen GW is pushing us in that direction regardless.
I mean, look at Jy2's completely LVO legal list that contains 5 Flyrants! Unbound is basically already here and legal, for some armies.
I say either take off all restrictions on list building, just make sure points costs and FOCs are lined up, or make it so only 1 CAD and 1 Ally FOC are allowed per player. This middle of the road style of list building still heavily favors some armies over others at the list building stage.
GW is going to keep stretching the FOC until we all break and accept a meaningful limit on Army compositions. I'm at that point. JY2's list is LVO legal. I will not be taking a list like that to LVO.
Here's another legal list that might give you pause:
Limiting to 2 Sources isn't enough. Highlander is fine, but it is mainly a novelty or change of pace. Da Boyz approach is better, and acceptable, but not as nuanced or complete as I would like it to be. 1 CAD + 1 Ally is OK, I guess, but I don't want to give up on formations and imperial Knights, and everything else. For me, the answer isn't to stop trying to play meaningful games of 40k, it is to pick up the gauntlet thrown and fix the broken FOC system. I will be developing my own proposals and publishing them (My own Blog, maybe BOLS) as I complete them. Thankfully, I know there are lots of smarter people than I that will be working on the same problem, and will likely solve it first.
Make lists by RAW rules except Cta and unbound with one exception, you can't take more choices of the same unit than the ones you have access to in one single detachment of your choice.
So you can get all CADs you want, but no more than 2 Flyrants (3 if you play leviathan), no more than 3 Anni barges and so on.
This would open the game to a lot of lists while cutting most of the cheese.
Sure some stuff will still get through as nearly broken, but it's better than now.
L0rdF1end wrote: JY2, are you going to LVO and if so are you planning to smash face with 5 Flyrants?
Any idea if there will be any live coverage this year of tables?
Thoughts on current top 5 Codex's?
Eldar
Tyranids - yeah baby.
Imperial Knights
Daemons
Tau
- That feels about right to me.
Can anyone smell the return of Tau gunline to counter flyer heavy Nids?
I believe Jy2 stated he would not be running Pentyrant at tournaments.
Top 5 is tough now.
Tyranids (Pentyrant)
Eldar (Wave Serpents, Seers Council)
Knights (Ad lance)
Space Marines (Gravcent Stars w/ Grey Knights or White Scars)
Daemons / Necrons / Tau (not sure on this one)
I think Tau would need to bring a considerable amount of Skyrays before they could "counter" Pentyrant.
Regarding the podcast the Lictorshame dude was on, the interviewer and him were talking up Psychic Scream a lot. I just feel I should point out that it's a Nova power with a 6" range, following the rules for shooting. Meaning models outside range can't be affected. And seeing how you have to place the screamer at least 1" away from enemy units, you can rarely affect more than a few models. Less if they are large, more if they are on small bases and clumped up. It's best against Tyranids and Daemons (because SitW and expensive, pivotal models).
N.I.B. wrote: Regarding the podcast the Lictorshame dude was on, the interviewer and him were talking up Psychic Scream a lot. I just feel I should point out that it's a Nova power with a 6" range, following the rules for shooting. Meaning models outside range can't be affected. And seeing how you have to place the screamer at least 1" away from enemy units, you can rarely affect more than a few models. Less if they are large, more if they are on small bases and clumped up. It's best against Tyranids and Daemons (because SitW and expensive, pivotal models).
N.I.B. wrote: Regarding the podcast the Lictorshame dude was on, the interviewer and him were talking up Psychic Scream a lot. I just feel I should point out that it's a Nova power with a 6" range, following the rules for shooting. Meaning models outside range can't be affected. And seeing how you have to place the screamer at least 1" away from enemy units, you can rarely affect more than a few models. Less if they are large, more if they are on small bases and clumped up. It's best against Tyranids and Daemons (because SitW and expensive, pivotal models).
Very situational power.
A Nova hits units not Models.
Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?
tetrisphreak wrote: Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?
Fair enough. The situations where this might arise are so very, very small for psychic scream, but grey Knights have been cheating me regularly with Cleansing Flame.
tetrisphreak wrote: Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?
Fair enough. The situations where this might arise are so very, very small for psychic scream, but grey Knights have been cheating me regularly with Cleansing Flame.
Have to agree, I mean most of the time your only clipping off three or 4 hits against a unit any way most of the time.
played a coupe of 500 pts games today which where fun! The second game I played was against guard( 2 Vet squads with melta, Demolisher and command squad) . My first turn I started with just a Hive tyrant on the board with 2 Mucolids, a Tyrannocyte and a Carnifex in reserve. I went to cast warp lance, perilsed, rolled a 1, rolled double six on my leadership and tabled myself in my own turn 1.
It was awesome!
I do love 500 pts games though, they are great fun
Wilson wrote: played a coupe of 500 pts games today which where fun! The second game I played was against guard( 2 Vet squads with melta, Demolisher and command squad) . My first turn I started with just a Hive tyrant on the board with 2 Mucolids, a Tyrannocyte and a Carnifex in reserve. I went to cast warp lance, perilsed, rolled a 1, rolled double six on my leadership and tabled myself in my own turn 1.
It was awesome!
I do love 500 pts games though, they are great fun
IF you going to lose Turn 1, at least you did it in style. I am also a fan fo the sub 1000pt game.
So what are the differences between writing a list for Eternal War missions and Maelstrom missions(or any other format like the BAO tournaments)? Maelstrom favors high mobility, so does Eternal War favor castling up? Is there no difference?
Sinful Hero wrote: So what are the differences between writing a list for Eternal War missions and Maelstrom missions(or any other format like the BAO tournaments)? Maelstrom favors high mobility, so does Eternal War favor castling up? Is there no difference?
For me it is a difference of durability. Eternal war tends to reward durable scoring units much better more than Maelstrom. In EW missions once you have an objective you have to be able to stay on it. Maelstrom you just ahve to be able to grab it and then can bounce to the next one or even get shot off it no big deal. While you can play for sudden last minute grabs in EW, I find still durability is so much more important than mobility because you have to have enough force survive to the end game to make the last turn grab.
Sinful Hero wrote: So what are the differences between writing a list for Eternal War missions and Maelstrom missions(or any other format like the BAO tournaments)? Maelstrom favors high mobility, so does Eternal War favor castling up? Is there no difference?
Big difference. Maelstrom favors MSU. Hormagants are Maelstrom all-stars with great mobility, and objective secured. Dakkafexes are great because they are fairly cheap, and have a big threat radius to exert board control. Fliers are not as good because they don't have much board control, and can't score objectives without risking being killed. Gargoyles are MVP's. Able to score objectives, tarpit, screen MC's and exert board control.
You can't castle up in Maelstrom near as much which is why it is so fun. You've got to get out there and engage in all phases of the game. Because of that you've got to build lists where every unit can fill multiple roles. You can't go in with the strategy 'Rippers are my scores, Flyrants are my damage dealers, Malanthropes are my support". Hormagants and Gargoyles will score more than Dakkafexes or Malanthropes, but you've got to be willing to use those unit to score as well. Dakkafexes are better in assault than Hormagants, but when the situation arises, you've got to use all of your tools. One Malanthrope isn't enough shrouding, because they got to spread out the cover saves a bit, and may be called on to go into assault in the hope of a preferred enemy bubble.
A few units that perform better in Maelstrom than Eternal war. Hormagants - Objective secured. Big foot print. Good Mobility. Dakkafexes - Good threat range. Versatile unit with an answer to everything. Limited range and mobility not as big of a problem because of good board control. Biovores - Sometimes you've got to snipe a unit off an objective. Biovores can do this. Gargoyles - So Fast. So good in so many ways. Malanthropes - A surprisingly good assaulter. The perfect support unit. Sturdy enough to control an objective alone. Swarmlord - Still not better than a flyrant, but Maelstrom allows him to shine much more. Tyrant Guard - Durable Assaulters. Throw one Crushing claw on them to threaten vehicles. Still not ideal, but better.
A few units that perform worse. Rippers - Score you one point if you are lucky. Hive Guard - Not enough shots, not good in other aspects of the game. Mawloc -Bigger consequences if he doesn't come in early. Some pluses, some minuses. Crones - Got to stay airborne to stay alive. Dakkaflyrants - Still a dominant unit, but also a large points investment, so you've got to limit the number in a list. I recommend no more than 2 at 1850. If you have more than 2, you have to focus on tabling you opponent. Dimachaeron - Msu is king. His assault potential is limited, he is a large investment, and can't contribute with shooting or really scoring (because he isn't assaulting if he is scoring) Barbed Heirodule - Too expensive for a unit that can only score one objective. If you include him, you have to focus on tabling you opponent. Tervigon - Too expensive, and doesn't contribute enough in shooting or assaulting.
tetrisphreak wrote: Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?
Fair enough. The situations where this might arise are so very, very small for psychic scream
When you play it correctly, it happens regular enough against most units with average Ld and even bunched up units with good Ld. There's always that unit that rolls really high, and then just two models die, because 6" range. I'd love to have it potentially affect all models in units.
tetrisphreak wrote: Shooting a boltgun hits units not models. What's your point regarding wound allocation?
Fair enough. The situations where this might arise are so very, very small for psychic scream
When you play it correctly, it happens regular enough against most units with average Ld and even bunched up units with good Ld. There's always that unit that rolls really high, and then just two models die, because 6" range. I'd love to have it potentially affect all models in units.
Then you are very fortunate. I go several games at a time between rolling high enough to do a wound with Psychic scream. I hit 2 Riptides, 2 units of Broadsides, and a group of fire warriors the other day. Killed 1 fire warrior. I rolled psychic scream 3! times on 3 flyrants against grey knights. I did 3 wounds against a Dreadknight twice (he saved all but 1). Other than that, I killed a purifier or some other MEQ with it. Though much of that has to do with Grey Knights denying the Witch on 4+'s. Cast it 4 times against Mek Gunz (LD 5). The rolls (3, 4, and 5) So I killed 3 total Gretchin. He denied the 4th.
So, starting in January our local shop is going to be doing a promotional escalation league where-in people are to start with the contents of a battle force (or equivalent) and work their way up to a full 1500 points. The store will be offering a 20% discount for participation, so I expect we will see quite a few new people. The only stipulation is that the models used in this new league have to be ones that either are new or haven't been painted yet (mainly to both incentivize painting and to keep things fair for new players who will be going into it with significantly limited collections).
With the restrictions in mind, I'm thinking I might try building an army off of the Deathstorm box with a few odds and ends that are unpainted. So far, this is what I have come up:
Formation: Phodian Annihilation Swarm: 555 points
TROOPS: Children of Cryptus
TROOPS: Phodian Hive Warriors
HEAVY: Beast of Phodia
Combined Arms Deatchment: 445 points
HQ: 1x Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs and Cluster Spines
Strat_N8 wrote: So, starting in January our local shop is going to be doing a promotional escalation league where-in people are to start with the contents of a battle force (or equivalent) and work their way up to a full 1500 points. The store will be offering a 20% discount for participation, so I expect we will see quite a few new people. The only stipulation is that the models used in this new league have to be ones that either are new or haven't been painted yet (mainly to both incentivize painting and to keep things fair for new players who will be going into it with significantly limited collections).
With the restrictions in mind, I'm thinking I might try building an army off of the Deathstorm box with a few odds and ends that are unpainted. So far, this is what I have come up:
Formation: Phodian Annihilation Swarm: 555 points
TROOPS: Children of Cryptus
TROOPS: Phodian Hive Warriors
HEAVY: Beast of Phodia
Combined Arms Deatchment: 445 points
HQ: 1x Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs and Cluster Spines
TROOPS: 20x Termagants
TROOPS: 20x Termagants
HEAVY: 1x Tyrannocyte
Have you already bought the box? Are you willing to buy anything else, and if so what's your budget?
Have you already bought the box? Are you willing to buy anything else, and if so what's your budget?
I have the deathstorm box (split with my little brother who is starting Blood Angels for the league), though most of the Tyranid half isn't put together yet. I'm not opposed to additional purchases, though with Christmas next week I'm not sure what my budget would be.
Pretty much everything listed is stuff that is either new (the Tyrannocyte) or has been sitting in my painting queue waiting for some attention. I also have an unassembled Carnifex and some Gargoyles from the Tyranid Swarm Box available too.
If you want, you might get a Hive Tyrant instead of the Tyrannocyte- Combine your termagants and move the Tervigon to a Troop slot. You'll at least be able to get a warlord trait that way, unless the Spawn of Cryptus is a character then that's a moot point.You can always get the Tyrannocyte later(and you'll be dropping in a scoring Tervigon then), but a flying Hive Tyrant and scoring Tervigon are going to be harder to deal with at lower point levels if you aren't going straight to 1500.
L0rdF1end wrote: JY2, are you going to LVO and if so are you planning to smash face with 5 Flyrants?
Any idea if there will be any live coverage this year of tables?
Thoughts on current top 5 Codex's?
Eldar
Tyranids - yeah baby.
Imperial Knights
Daemons
Tau
- That feels about right to me.
Can anyone smell the return of Tau gunline to counter flyer heavy Nids?
I believe Jy2 stated he would not be running Pentyrant at tournaments.
Top 5 is tough now.
Tyranids (Pentyrant)
Eldar (Wave Serpents, Seers Council)
Knights (Ad lance)
Space Marines (Gravcent Stars w/ Grey Knights or White Scars)
Daemons / Necrons / Tau (not sure on this one)
I think Tau would need to bring a considerable amount of Skyrays before they could "counter" Pentyrant.
One sec here... JY2 takes like 6 Necron flyers to an event when there are like...no flyers..and they are like...Da bomb..and like..own everything... but refuses to take 5 Flyrants..
Am I reading that right... lol
Strat_N8 wrote: So, starting in January our local shop is going to be doing a promotional escalation league where-in people are to start with the contents of a battle force (or equivalent) and work their way up to a full 1500 points. The store will be offering a 20% discount for participation, so I expect we will see quite a few new people. The only stipulation is that the models used in this new league have to be ones that either are new or haven't been painted yet (mainly to both incentivize painting and to keep things fair for new players who will be going into it with significantly limited collections).
With the restrictions in mind, I'm thinking I might try building an army off of the Deathstorm box with a few odds and ends that are unpainted. So far, this is what I have come up:
Formation: Phodian Annihilation Swarm: 555 points
TROOPS: Children of Cryptus
TROOPS: Phodian Hive Warriors
HEAVY: Beast of Phodia
Combined Arms Deatchment: 445 points
HQ: 1x Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs and Cluster Spines
TROOPS: 20x Termagants
TROOPS: 20x Termagants
HEAVY: 1x Tyrannocyte
I understand other people's reservations, but think you are on a reasonable track. A Hive Tyrant is a better HQ than a Tervigon, but if you want to build a tervigon, that is just fine. I suggest just a few tweaks to the wargear.
Tervigon (Crushing Claws, E.Grubs) is the way I run my Tervigons. I know this won't fit in your army as constructed, but I wouldn't build him fixed, as I expect you to want Crushing Claws later(assuming you escalation league allows it). So my advice is magnetize the Scything Talons and crushing Claws.
For you Termagants, Consider building them like this instead:
20 Termagants (10 Fleshboarers, 10 Devourers)
10 Termagants (10 Fleshboarers)
It is a bonus to their offensive ability (10 extra shots, 6" extra range), and also a unit you are more likely going to want long term. Situationally, you might consider dropping the Gants in the Tyrannocyte instead of the Tervigon. 10 Devourers makes them a threat to infantry, and any back armor 10 vehicles. It will also reduce your footprint and make for a bit shorter games.
If I were to change up what you are building, I would drop the Tervigon for deathleaper (Cheap, distract for your melee stuff) and a Malanthrope (A+ support unit).
Sinful Hero wrote: If you want, you might get a Hive Tyrant instead of the Tyrannocyte- Combine your termagants and move the Tervigon to a Troop slot. You'll at least be able to get a warlord trait that way, unless the Spawn of Cryptus is a character then that's a moot point.You can always get the Tyrannocyte later(and you'll be dropping in a scoring Tervigon then), but a flying Hive Tyrant and scoring Tervigon are going to be harder to deal with at lower point levels if you aren't going straight to 1500.
If you are running the Phobian formation you don't want the broodlord as warlord since the assigned trait becomes pointless as the whole formation has PE.
I've mentioned earlier about the Living Artillery Node (LAN) formation in regards to how competitive it is and now, I've got a little more time to touch up on the subject.
Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player. However, it is NOT a top-tier competitive Tyranid build. It's got the tools to deal with a lot of army builds. However, it just does not have the flexibility of a flyrant-spam army build to take on some of the best armies out there.
When I am talking about top-tier, there are certain tournament army builds that this list has got to be able to handle:
Mechdar - how can it deal with massed AV13 skimmers with 4+/3+ cover saves and with T8 monstrous creatures?
The Seer Council - despite the nerf to this deathstar, it can still sweep most ground units off of the table.
Necron AV13-spam - how can it deal with massed heavy armor?
Triple Imperial Knight Adlance builds - how can it handle this type of army?
White Scars bikers - bikers armies will take out the exocrine with ease. S4 blasts don't work very well against T5 units, and White Scars have 3+ jink against AP1-3 shooting.
Centstar - how can they deal with an Invisible deathstar that can teleport all over the table?
Drop Pod marines - sure, biovore and exocrine blasts work well against these armies....assuming you survive their alpha-strike.
These are just some of the armies that will give LAN builds problems, and they are all common and successful tournament armies (armies that normally do well in tournament play). Against many of these armies, basically, LAN builds need to rely on their most reliable unit - the flyrant. It is the flyrant that will do the most damage against these types of armies and that is because the flyrant has the mobility, versatility and durability to do so. The LAN does not. Rather, it needs to wait for the flyrants to perform so that it has more viable targets against these types of armies.
Thanks to the Leviathan detachment, now LAN has gotten even better....but that is only because it can now run 3 flyrants instead of 2. The Leviathan detachment will make any Tyranid formation better. That is because you are adding another highly versatile FMU (force-multiplier unit) to the army. See where this is going? The more flyrants you have, the better the army typically becomes. The LAN is just a support unit. And while support units are important, it is the stars that will take the army to the next level.
Earlier, I mention about the LAN being a static gunline. While it is not a purely static build, it might as well be in comparison to the mobility of a flyrant-spam build. Biovores just do not like to move out of BLOS terrain or ruins, and the warriors are needed to babysit them and to hold the home objectives (they also don't really want to move out of cover). So while in theory, you want to move the formation along with the rest of the army, in practice, usually only the exocrine does. The warriors will move to a degree just so that they cover the exocrine, but they are not normally an aggressive unit.
In any case, a ground-&-pound Tyranid army is almost like a dinosaur in the current meta. You have to have mobility to compete with top dogs, the best tournament armies out there. In an objectives-heavy tournament format, if you don't have mobility, you don't have flexibility. If you don't have flexibility, you can't deal with a wider range of army builds, from MSU to deathstars to flyer-spam to Daemon summoning to heavy armor. And if you can't compete against a wide range of armies, then you don't have a top-tier army.
One sec here... JY2 takes like 6 Necron flyers to an event when there are like...no flyers..and they are like...Da bomb..and like..own everything... but refuses to take 5 Flyrants..
Am I reading that right... lol
Actually, the most Necron flyers I have ever taken to a tournament is 4. I am only running 3 Necron flyers in my current 1850 list. I don't believe in the Necron Airforce. What I run is a Necron ground army with some air support.
Strat_N8 wrote: So, starting in January our local shop is going to be doing a promotional escalation league where-in people are to start with the contents of a battle force (or equivalent) and work their way up to a full 1500 points. The store will be offering a 20% discount for participation, so I expect we will see quite a few new people. The only stipulation is that the models used in this new league have to be ones that either are new or haven't been painted yet (mainly to both incentivize painting and to keep things fair for new players who will be going into it with significantly limited collections).
With the restrictions in mind, I'm thinking I might try building an army off of the Deathstorm box with a few odds and ends that are unpainted. So far, this is what I have come up:
Formation: Phodian Annihilation Swarm: 555 points
TROOPS: Children of Cryptus
TROOPS: Phodian Hive Warriors
HEAVY: Beast of Phodia
Combined Arms Deatchment: 445 points
HQ: 1x Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs and Cluster Spines
TROOPS: 20x Termagants
TROOPS: 20x Termagants
HEAVY: 1x Tyrannocyte
Tag8833 put up some very good suggestions. I'd follow that if you want a tervigon HQ over a flyrant.
Sinful Hero wrote: So what are the differences between writing a list for Eternal War missions and Maelstrom missions(or any other format like the BAO tournaments)? Maelstrom favors high mobility, so does Eternal War favor castling up? Is there no difference?
No difference. You should build them the same way - as a strong TAC army. As long as your list is TACtically flexible, then it is all a matter of your TACtics as opposed to your "list".
Wilson wrote: played a coupe of 500 pts games today which where fun! The second game I played was against guard( 2 Vet squads with melta, Demolisher and command squad) . My first turn I started with just a Hive tyrant on the board with 2 Mucolids, a Tyrannocyte and a Carnifex in reserve. I went to cast warp lance, perilsed, rolled a 1, rolled double six on my leadership and tabled myself in my own turn 1.
It was awesome!
I do love 500 pts games though, they are great fun
It's rare but it does happen.
N.I.B. wrote: Regarding the podcast the Lictorshame dude was on, the interviewer and him were talking up Psychic Scream a lot. I just feel I should point out that it's a Nova power with a 6" range, following the rules for shooting. Meaning models outside range can't be affected. And seeing how you have to place the screamer at least 1" away from enemy units, you can rarely affect more than a few models. Less if they are large, more if they are on small bases and clumped up. It's best against Tyranids and Daemons (because SitW and expensive, pivotal models).
Very situational power.
I've been having very bad luck with my Psychic Scream. I am getting to the point where I think that casting Psychic Scream is just as useful as assaulting with your flyrants, something I no longer do.
L0rdF1end wrote: JY2, are you going to LVO and if so are you planning to smash face with 5 Flyrants?
Any idea if there will be any live coverage this year of tables?
Thoughts on current top 5 Codex's?
Eldar
Tyranids - yeah baby.
Imperial Knights
Daemons
Tau
- That feels about right to me.
Can anyone smell the return of Tau gunline to counter flyer heavy Nids?
I believe Jy2 stated he would not be running Pentyrant at tournaments.
Top 5 is tough now.
Tyranids (Pentyrant)
Eldar (Wave Serpents, Seers Council)
Knights (Ad lance)
Space Marines (Gravcent Stars w/ Grey Knights or White Scars)
Daemons / Necrons / Tau (not sure on this one)
I think Tau would need to bring a considerable amount of Skyrays before they could "counter" Pentyrant.
This is what I think is Top 5 (in no particular order).
Tyranids
Eldar
Space Marines
Necrons
Daemons
Tau didn't quite make the cut because they have some potentially really bad matchups against Necrons, Daemons and White Scars. And as tough as Adlance knights are, a lot of armies can deal with them actually.
L0rdF1end wrote: JY2, are you going to LVO and if so are you planning to smash face with 5 Flyrants?
Any idea if there will be any live coverage this year of tables?
Thoughts on current top 5 Codex's?
Eldar
Tyranids - yeah baby.
Imperial Knights
Daemons
Tau
- That feels about right to me.
Can anyone smell the return of Tau gunline to counter flyer heavy Nids?
No, I am not planning on running Pentyrants at the LVO. I am actually planning on running Necrons, but will reserve final judgement for when the new Necron codex comes out in January.
Depending on how popular Tyranids become, yes, you may see a resurgence in Tau. Not necessarily gunline Tau, but shooty, mobile Tau. Gunlines will go the way of the Dodo birds in competitive play, though the Tau Firebase Cadre will remain popular.
jy2 wrote: Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player. However, it is NOT a top-tier competitive Tyranid build. It's got the tools to deal with a lot of army builds. However, it just does not have the flexibility of a flyrant-spam army build to take on some of the best armies out there.
There's that term flexibility again. For the cost of 1.5 Flyrants you get 3 units 2 of which do things that flyrants don't do as well. So unless by flexibility you mean the same thing in larger quantities....
jy2 wrote: When I am talking about top-tier, there are certain tournament army builds that this list has got to be able to handle:
Spoiler:
Mechdar - how can it deal with massed AV13 skimmers with 4+/3+ cover saves and with T8 monstrous creatures?
The Seer Council - despite the nerf to this deathstar, it can still sweep most ground units off of the table.
Necron AV13-spam - how can it deal with massed heavy armor?
Triple Imperial Knight Adlance builds - how can it handle this type of army?
White Scars bikers - bikers armies will take out the exocrine with ease. S4 blasts don't work very well against T5 units, and White Scars have 3+ jink against AP1-3 shooting.
Centstar - how can they deal with an Invisible deathstar that can teleport all over the table?
Drop Pod marines - sure, biovore and exocrine blasts work well against these armies....assuming you survive their alpha-strike.
Some of those lists are rough matchups for tyranids. I'm not sure what you are comparing living artillery against. I guess 5 Flyrants? It clearly is better against drop pod marines. Seer council depends on their psychic power success, and what else in in the list with them. Centstar fears Living artillery now that invis has taken a nerf. I've beat Ad Lance with it twice. I've beat necron airforce (4-6 fliers) with it many times. It has decent answers to demon summoning. It certainly isn't auto lose as much as you imply especially since you seem to have forgotten that living artillery is only 390 points. A flyrant and 1/2. Or 2 Crones and a Malanthrope. It is a relatively small investment with a big bang for your buck in the right situations.
jy2 wrote: These are just some of the armies that will give LAN builds problems, and they are all common and successful tournament armies (armies that normally do well in tournament play). Against many of these armies, basically, LAN builds need to rely on their most reliable unit - the flyrant. It is the flyrant that will do the most damage against these types of armies and that is because the flyrant has the mobility, versatility and durability to do so. The LAN does not. Rather, it needs to wait for the flyrants to perform so that it has more viable targets against these types of armies.
Thanks to the Leviathan detachment, now LAN has gotten even better....but that is only because it can now run 3 flyrants instead of 2. The Leviathan detachment will make any Tyranid formation better. That is because you are adding another highly versatile FMU (force-multiplier unit) to the army. See where this is going? The more flyrants you have, the better the army typically becomes. The LAN is just a support unit. And while support units are important, it is the stars that will take the army to the next level.
So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list? I guess. 5 Flyrants definitely works well against most things. But if we are limiting ourselves to 3 Flyrants, its LAN, Crones, or Barbed Heirodule. All are viable options.
jy2 wrote: Earlier, I mention about the LAN being a static gunline. While it is not a purely static build, it might as well be in comparison to the mobility of a flyrant-spam build. Biovores just do not like to move out of BLOS terrain or ruins, and the warriors are needed to babysit them and to hold the home objectives (they also don't really want to move out of cover). So while in theory, you want to move the formation along with the rest of the army, in practice, usually only the exocrine does. The warriors will move to a degree just so that they cover the exocrine, but they are not normally an aggressive unit.
LAN has just enough board presence to control your backfield in most games. It isn't an assault group of units, but if someone drops a farsight Bomb, or legion of the Dammned, or Necron Warriors or any other late game backfield drops, LAN is there to contest them in assault, and deny them the backfield. That is mainly where the warriors shine. They function in the same way as your Dimacharon did in your visions of a Barbed Heirodule list. Not saying that 3 Warriors with a BS are better than a Dimacharon, but they are an assault threat that scales down in proportion to scaling down a Barbed Heirodule to an Exocrine.
jy2 wrote: In any case, a ground-&-pound Tyranid army is almost like a dinosaur in the current meta. You have to have mobility to compete with top dogs, the best tournament armies out there. In an objectives-heavy tournament format, if you don't have mobility, you don't have flexibility. If you don't have flexibility, you can't deal with a wider range of army builds, from MSU to deathstars to flyer-spam to Daemon summoning to heavy armor. And if you can't compete against a wide range of armies, then you don't have a top-tier army.
So your argument is 5 Flyrants or die? Or are you arguing for a flying circus that involves crones? I just don't know what you are comparing LAN to. It can hold your backfield, and score any objectives there. It can contribute forward all the while. It does so for 390 points. Your strategy of surrendering the entire board to your opponent at the list building stage is certainly a way to go. 5 Flyrants is a good list, but that is not a reason that LAN stinks, nor is it the only way to play at a highly competitive level.
As I said higher in the post. If you want to limit yourself to no more than 3 Flyrants, you need something to fill out your list. For a good list that means LAN, Barbed Heirodule, Crones, or possibly Lictors, though I've found that to be... dependent on terrain in BAO missions. My opinion is that the Barbed Heirodule is the best, but it wins big or loses big. LAN is definitely the most fun. So I play my LAN list far more than I play my Crones or Barbed Heirodule when playing against competitive opponents.
! Ok, need to make my LD10, no prob. I then roll 
, 
Fearsomely well done! 
I have also since learned that 
Give it a Hormagaunt screen, and you should be able to put a few dents in those hordes. 
)
Or shooting down a enemy flier...etc...It's not the end of the world to lose it. But it is a loss (of flexability) 
And if I do want to go tangle with a bad mutha, well I don't want to stop and chat with some Nuglings first, I want them to clear a path. I sure don't see taking a second CC as a mistake. But I don't see keeping one's options open, as being a mistake. 
