All the talk of competitiveness, 5 flyrants, tournament lists and such is making me so very happy that my local scene is casual. I can't imagine being limited to 3-4 units in the codex. I find it most enjoyable playing Warriors and walkrants against Land Raiders, Vespid, CC dreadnoughts and the like...
I'm near certain jy2 specifically mentions he thinks LAN is good and would recommend it to any Tyranid player.
jy2 wrote: Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player.
Ah yep there it is...
So how again did you interpret this?
tag8833 wrote: So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list?
SBG wrote: All the talk of competitiveness, 5 flyrants, tournament lists and such is making me so very happy that my local scene is casual. I can't imagine being limited to 3-4 units in the codex. I find it most enjoyable playing Warriors and walkrants against Land Raiders, Vespid, CC dreadnoughts and the like...
I find it so very enjoyable playing competitive list! It makes so happy that my local scene like to try and be the best they can be while we all still have fun.
tag8833 wrote: There's that term flexibility again. For the cost of 1.5 Flyrants you get 3 units 2 of which do things that flyrants don't do as well. So unless by flexibility you mean the same thing in larger quantities....
When I say flexibility, I mean that the build is flexible enough to adjust to almost any enemy build, mission type or playstyle. It's mobility is excellent in virtually any scenario and its offense is potentially more devastating than that of the LAN and against a wider range of enemy units. The type of flexibility I am talking about is tactical flexibility. Flyrant-spam is an aggressive army, yet, it is also a very reactive army. The better you are able to react to what your opponent does, the more flexible your army is as it can change its tactics without lost of efficiency at the drop of a dime (in most cases).
tag8833 wrote: Some of those lists are rough matchups for tyranids. I'm not sure what you are comparing living artillery against. I guess 5 Flyrants? It clearly is better against drop pod marines. Seer council depends on their psychic power success, and what else in in the list with them. Centstar fears Living artillery now that invis has taken a nerf. I've beat Ad Lance with it twice. I've beat necron airforce (4-6 fliers) with it many times. It has decent answers to demon summoning. It certainly isn't auto lose as much as you imply especially since you seem to have forgotten that living artillery is only 390 points. A flyrant and 1/2. Or 2 Crones and a Malanthrope. It is a relatively small investment with a big bang for your buck in the right situations.
Since when have I ever implied that LAN is auto-lose against those armies? You are missing my point completely.
I am listing army builds which I think that a LAN Tyranid build will have problems against. I'm not saying that they can't beat these armies. Rather, they are just not as efficient in dealing with these armies as they are in dealing with other armies (i.e. infantry-based armies not meched up). They can still beat them, but they will struggle in many cases. A flyrant-spam list is more capable of handling these builds because they can adapt better to deal with them. With a LAN-based army, you may have to wait a turn or 2 before your formation have any viable targets to deal with. That is a turn or 2 where you are only playing with a 1110-pt army instead of a 1500-pt army. It just isn't as efficient as a flyrant-spam army, where you have 1500-pts of your army contributing to the offense from Turn 1. That is not to say that the LAN is inefficient or anything. It's actually really good, especially against the right army. However, there is no formation that can operate at 100% efficiency from the get-go, especially when under adverse conditions. The only Tyranid build that can do so is flyrant-spam, where all your flyrants will be doing work against the enemy from the very beginning. On Turn 1, it will already be working at 100% capacity.
tag8833 wrote: So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list? I guess. 5 Flyrants definitely works well against most things. But if we are limiting ourselves to 3 Flyrants, its LAN, Crones, or Barbed Heirodule. All are viable options.
Please show me where I have said or even implied that? You don't have to run a 5 flyrant list to be able to do well in a tournament. However, most Tyranid builds before Leviathan came out just aren't top-tier material. Keep in mind that I am not talking about just a good Tyranid army. I am talking about a Tyranid army that can win Grand Tournaments (GT's) and not just RTT's (smaller tournaments). That is what I mean by top-tier, an army that has not only a realistic chance, but a good chance to win a larger tournament. It's like comparing Scottie Pippen (LAN) to Michael Jordan (Flyrant-spam). Yes, Scottie Pippen is really good, but he is not a player who can take his team to the championships. Michael Jordan, on the other hand, is a player who is good enough to do so.
tag8833 wrote: LAN has just enough board presence to control your backfield in most games. It isn't an assault group of units, but if someone drops a farsight Bomb, or legion of the Dammned, or Necron Warriors or any other late game backfield drops, LAN is there to contest them in assault, and deny them the backfield. That is mainly where the warriors shine. They function in the same way as your Dimacharon did in your visions of a Barbed Heirodule list. Not saying that 3 Warriors with a BS are better than a Dimacharon, but they are an assault threat that scales down in proportion to scaling down a Barbed Heirodule to an Exocrine.
Yes, it does have a better backfield board presence than a flyrant-spam army. Actually, most Tyranid ground armies do. However, what it doesn't have is a good enough board presence to control objectives not in its backfield (in particular, objectives in your opponent's backfield). That is the trade off there. LAN builds and most Tyranid ground builds have good backfield presence at the expense of forwards objective-taking capability. Flyrant-spam, on the other hand, control each objective equally well. It can take forwards objectives as well as it can take its backfield objectives. It gives up the strong backfield presence of a more traditional Tyranid army but in return, you've got the tactical flexibility to go wherever you are needed objectives-wise.
tag8833 wrote: So your argument is 5 Flyrants or die? Or are you arguing for a flying circus that involves crones? I just don't know what you are comparing LAN to. It can hold your backfield, and score any objectives there. It can contribute forward all the while. It does so for 390 points. Your strategy of surrendering the entire board to your opponent at the list building stage is certainly a way to go. 5 Flyrants is a good list, but that is not a reason that LAN stinks, nor is it the only way to play at a highly competitive level.
As I said higher in the post. If you want to limit yourself to no more than 3 Flyrants, you need something to fill out your list. For a good list that means LAN, Barbed Heirodule, Crones, or possibly Lictors, though I've found that to be... dependent on terrain in BAO missions. My opinion is that the Barbed Heirodule is the best, but it wins big or loses big. LAN is definitely the most fun. So I play my LAN list far more than I play my Crones or Barbed Heirodule when playing against competitive opponents.
Again, show me where I have ever implied or argued that the only build to run is 5-flyrants? Where have I ever said that LAN stinks?
Don't bother, you won't find it because I've never said anything like that. This is what I am saying in a nutshell.
LAN is a good build but it is not a top-tier Tyranid build. A flyrant-spam Tyranid army is because it is more tactically flexible and also better equipped to handle a wider range of armies than LAN or most of the other Tyranid builds as well. Does that mean that you should only consider running 4-5 flyrants in your list? No. Other Tyranid builds can do well also. However, if you want to talk about consistency in performance against a wide range of army builds, IMO, flyrant-spam will be the most consistent as well as efficient build against most of the army builds out there.
But if you want to handicap yourself with a personal limit (i.e. 3 flyrants), then yeah, LAN is really good. I just don't see it consistently beating out the other top armies anytime soon.
I don't have time to put a big thing in, just pointing out that all those match ups you listed Jy2 are well off the mark. Is Ad lance really some ez match up for Flyrants? Pretty sure its a bad match up for both. Drop pods being a bad match up for ground nids? Sheesh, I can barely think of a harder counter in the GAME for drop pod marines than Nidzilla. That one is much worse for Flyrants. I'm not really sure what your LAN list is but would be interesting to see what the list behind your theory is, but as someone whose practiced with BOTH builds I can solidly say the match ups you listed are not significantly easier for Flyrants at all. What is your LAN list that you are using for these match ups?
LAN is a good build but it is not a top-tier Tyranid build. A flyrant-spam Tyranid army is because it is more tactically flexible and also better equipped to handle a wider range of armies than LAN or most of the other Tyranid builds as well.
No, it's just taking 3 more Flyrants and expecting 5 of them to do the job every game. Plenty of games they will, except for the games where you run into a list with plenty of Skyfire or Flyrant counters, then you are far worse off than LAN in this match up
"Flyrant spam is top tier because its better"
I'm not actually seeing any supporting logic behind this. Your handpicked list of match ups where LAN falls behind Flyrants is either A. factually incorrect like in the case of drop pods, or B. match ups where Flyrants are not significantly better off at all. What is the hard counter to LAN? It can in theory take any match up, not necessarily with auto-win odds but often with positive. Don't think that because you got that victory against questionably handled Skyfire Tau, that Flyrants do not have a clear cut counter. It might not be enough to autowin, but its well and truly enough to make it an unlikely victory for Flyrants. anda very likely victor for LAN in this match up, but reverse this and I can't think of any competitive army I've practiced where LAN has a negative win ratio yet Flyrants will have a positive one. LAN is far more thoroughly the TAC choice, until you can show a list where LAN is likely to LOSE but Flyrant is likely to WIN, this whole talk of Flyrants being the only top-tier build for Nids because of flexibility versatility better equipped blah blah, is just words and not actual supporting evidence.
IMO Flyrant lists are best against knights, Kinghts most damage comes from Melee, they move 12" have stomps etc...
Having 5 flyrants in the air will never be in melee and can move 24" compare to 12" Flyrants can also get behind and hit Rear armor, yes they get a 4+ but with 5 flyrants with TL dakka and Ele grubs you should kill 1 per turn after turn 1, if you focus down 2 or 3 and then worry about objectives you should win.
A LAD list (Not saying LAD is bad just an example) is far worst at dealing with knights. With the shooting, turn 2 charge and D3 stomps, also the fact they are walkers so your melee is front armor, its a very hard match up.
How are you both misreading what he's saying this much? I honestly don't even know what's happening...
He said 5 Flyrants is the best build Tyranids have. Not once has he said all other builds are invalid and uncompetitive, in fact he says the opposite a page back stating Tyranids currently have the MOST competitive builds of all armies, while also stating that LAN is good...
You wan't a match up where 5 Flyrants outperforms LAN Shuppet? Here's one for you; 5 Flyrants vs LAN
Zande4 wrote: How are you both misreading what he's saying this much? I honestly don't even know what's happening...
He said 5 Flyrants is the best build Tyranids have. Not once has he said all other builds are invalid and uncompetitive, in fact he says the opposite a page back stating Tyranids currently have the MOST competitive builds of all armies, while also stating that LAN is good...
You wan't a match up where 5 Flyrants outperforms LAN Shuppet? Here's one for you; 5 Flyrants vs LAN
Zande4 wrote: How are you both misreading what he's saying this much? I honestly don't even know what's happening...
He said 5 Flyrants is the best build Tyranids have. Not once has he said all other builds are invalid and uncompetitive, in fact he says the opposite a page back stating Tyranids currently have the MOST competitive builds of all armies, while also stating that LAN is good...
Stop using this thin fallback for every counterpoint made to his argument lol, I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm not responding to him saying anything is "invalid or uncompetitive" which I'm well aware he is not, I'm responding to him saying that LAN is not top tier, by providing my argument as to why it is. All this finger pointing about us misreading and accusing jy2 of saying Nidzilla is trash tier, where are you getting it from?
Regarding your debate of 'Best Build'. This really is a Meta dependant question.
Currently yes, 4-5 Flyrants is the best Nids have to offer.
But then you have to think about how the meta will then change to counter that. Skyfire clearly will be popular if not mandatory for armies to deal with that many Flyrants.
The meta change is a strange one though because not only do you have to deal with this new threat of 5 Flyrants, you also have to deal with the current lists out there (Knights and Serpent Spam mostly).
What do other armies have to offer that can deal with the current armies and put down multiple Flyrants?
I can't think of many armies that can achieve this personally.
The two that come to mind are:
Tau (Broadside and Riptides with Skyfire upgrades)
Necrons (Mass flyer spam). - Guess we need to see what the new dex looks like.
SHUPPET wrote: I don't have time to put a big thing in, just pointing out that all those match ups you listed Jy2 are well off the mark. Is Ad lance really some ez match up for Flyrants? Pretty sure its a bad match up for both. Drop pods being a bad match up for ground nids? Sheesh, I can barely think of a harder counter in the GAME for drop pod marines than Nidzilla. That one is much worse for Flyrants. I'm not really sure what your LAN list is but would be interesting to see what the list behind your theory is, but as someone whose practiced with BOTH builds I can solidly say the match ups you listed are not significantly easier for Flyrants at all. What is your LAN list that you are using for these match ups?
LAN is a good build but it is not a top-tier Tyranid build. A flyrant-spam Tyranid army is because it is more tactically flexible and also better equipped to handle a wider range of armies than LAN or most of the other Tyranid builds as well.
No, it's just taking 3 more Flyrants and expecting 5 of them to do the job every game. Plenty of games they will, except for the games where you run into a list with plenty of Skyfire or Flyrant counters, then you are far worse off than LAN in this match up
"Flyrant spam is top tier because its better"
I'm not actually seeing any supporting logic behind this. Your handpicked list of match ups where LAN falls behind Flyrants is either A. factually incorrect like in the case of drop pods, or B. match ups where Flyrants are not significantly better off at all. What is the hard counter to LAN? It can in theory take any match up, not necessarily with auto-win odds but often with positive. Don't think that because you got that victory against questionably handled Skyfire Tau, that Flyrants do not have a clear cut counter. It might not be enough to autowin, but its well and truly enough to make it an unlikely victory for Flyrants. anda very likely victor for LAN in this match up, but reverse this and I can't think of any competitive army I've practiced where LAN has a negative win ratio yet Flyrants will have a positive one. LAN is far more thoroughly the TAC choice, until you can show a list where LAN is likely to LOSE but Flyrant is likely to WIN, this whole talk of Flyrants being the only top-tier build for Nids because of flexibility versatility better equipped blah blah, is just words and not actual supporting evidence.
Following on from this, jy2, do you think you could get a game in against your Tau friend with a LAN list (or lead me to a batrep which you've already done)? IIRC, there was a ton of Skyfire in the Tau list yet Pentyrant still won 6-4. It would be interesting to see how LAN fares against the same list (maybe some modifications, since the Tau list was slightly tailored).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
L0rdF1end wrote: Regarding your debate of 'Best Build'. This really is a Meta dependant question.
Currently yes, 4-5 Flyrants is the best Nids have to offer.
But then you have to think about how the meta will then change to counter that. Skyfire clearly will be popular if not mandatory for armies to deal with that many Flyrants.
The meta change is a strange one though because not only do you have to deal with this new threat of 5 Flyrants, you also have to deal with the current lists out there (Knights and Serpent Spam mostly).
What do other armies have to offer that can deal with the current armies and put down multiple Flyrants?
I can't think of many armies that can achieve this personally.
The two that come to mind are:
Tau (Broadside and Riptides with Skyfire upgrades)
Necrons (Mass flyer spam). - Guess we need to see what the new dex looks like.
What else could shut down 4-5 Flyrants?
I would also argue that AV13 Wall Crons would work, since Flyrants would need to get behind a Necron vehicle before it could damage it (or use EGrubs).
I'd also hazard a guess that Venom spam could work or Raider spam, simply due to the amount of Poisoned shots they can dish out (even if firing at BS1, in the case of Raider Spam, they are TL). But that match up would be dependent on who went first, since a Flyrant would have no problems killing a Venom a turn. Maybe not a Raider (3+ Jink might save them) but I wouldn't take my chances on a Raider surviving.
GreenTide might work, simply due to the amount of bodies on the field (although I believe inControl's Hierodule list won against it, hooray for Stomps )
tag8833 wrote: So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list? I guess. 5 Flyrants definitely works well against most things. But if we are limiting ourselves to 3 Flyrants, its LAN, Crones, or Barbed Heirodule. All are viable options.
Please show me where I have said or even implied that? You don't have to run a 5 flyrant list to be able to do well in a tournament. However, most Tyranid builds before Leviathan came out just aren't top-tier material. Keep in mind that I am not talking about just a good Tyranid army. I am talking about a Tyranid army that can win Grand Tournaments (GT's) and not just RTT's (smaller tournaments). That is what I mean by top-tier, an army that has not only a realistic chance, but a good chance to win a larger tournament. It's like comparing Scottie Pippen (LAN) to Michael Jordan (Flyrant-spam). Yes, Scottie Pippen is really good, but he is not a player who can take his team to the championships. Michael Jordan, on the other hand, is a player who is good enough to do so.
Here you go:
jy2 wrote: Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player. However, it is NOT a top-tier competitive Tyranid build. It's got the tools to deal with a lot of army builds. However, it just does not have the flexibility of a flyrant-spam army build to take on some of the best armies out there
You said LAN is not a top-tier competitive build, and your list of top tier competitive builds is 1 build long. I don't think that is quite fair. Lictorshame won a GT. Several Barbed Heirodule lists have come real close, and won lots of RTTs. Flyrants + Crones are winning GT's in Europe.
Flyrant spam has fewer bad matchups in the current meta. That is true. But I think to use that to conclude that it is the only top-tier competitive build is going a bit overboard.
Flyrant spam does indeed have fewer bad matchups in the current meta which is what makes it the most competitive build for Nids currently.
Other builds can come close as you have mentioned but they aren't going to win a GT. Most of these other builds still contain and heavily lean on the durability and versatility of the Flyrant.
It is all matchup dependant so it is potentially possible for other builds to do well but probability is very much in favour of 4-5 Flyrants. Nothing else comes close in the current Meta including Lictorshame and other builds.
Sean is an amazing player and we cannot expect the list in another persons hands to do quite as well. Sean also had some easier matchups which helped.
Flyrant spam on the other hand is relatively easy to play.
tag8833 wrote: So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list? I guess. 5 Flyrants definitely works well against most things. But if we are limiting ourselves to 3 Flyrants, its LAN, Crones, or Barbed Heirodule. All are viable options.
Please show me where I have said or even implied that? You don't have to run a 5 flyrant list to be able to do well in a tournament. However, most Tyranid builds before Leviathan came out just aren't top-tier material. Keep in mind that I am not talking about just a good Tyranid army. I am talking about a Tyranid army that can win Grand Tournaments (GT's) and not just RTT's (smaller tournaments). That is what I mean by top-tier, an army that has not only a realistic chance, but a good chance to win a larger tournament. It's like comparing Scottie Pippen (LAN) to Michael Jordan (Flyrant-spam). Yes, Scottie Pippen is really good, but he is not a player who can take his team to the championships. Michael Jordan, on the other hand, is a player who is good enough to do so.
Here you go:
jy2 wrote: Just as a refresher, my position on LAN is this. It is a good formation and I will recommend it to any Tyranid player. However, it is NOT a top-tier competitive Tyranid build. It's got the tools to deal with a lot of army builds. However, it just does not have the flexibility of a flyrant-spam army build to take on some of the best armies out there
You said LAN is not a top-tier competitive build, and your list of top tier competitive builds is 1 build long. I don't think that is quite fair. Lictorshame won a GT. Several Barbed Heirodule lists have come real close, and won lots of RTTs. Flyrants + Crones are winning GT's in Europe.
Flyrant spam has fewer bad matchups in the current meta. That is true. But I think to use that to conclude that it is the only top-tier competitive build is going a bit overboard.
Again, please show me where I have said that LAN is a "loser list" or that it "stinks"?
Saying that something is not the best is NOT the same thing as saying it sucks.
Just because your brother is not your best friend, does that mean that he is a loser and and that he stinks? (Note - in case you choose to read too much into it, I am not claiming that anyone's brother is actually a loser.)
Do you see the logical fallacy there?
What I am stating is my opinion of what a top-tier Tyranid army is. It is only an opinion and you have a right to disagree with it. Just don't twist my words around, making it into something that I DID NOT SAY.
You want a simple test? Sure. Take a mechdar army (perhaps the example list you used in my battle reports) and play 2 games against it - one with a LAN build and one with a flyrant-spam build (like my Pentyrant build). Then take those 2 same Tyranid armies and then run them against a horde army like the ork or AM build that you mentioned in my battle reports as well. Then tell me what you think about the 2 Tyranid builds.
L0rdF1end wrote: Flyrant spam does indeed have fewer bad matchups in the current meta which is what makes it the most competitive build for Nids currently.
Other builds can come close as you have mentioned but they aren't going to win a GT. Most of these other builds still contain and heavily lean on the durability and versatility of the Flyrant.
It is all matchup dependant so it is potentially possible for other builds to do well but probability is very much in favour of 4-5 Flyrants. Nothing else comes close in the current Meta including Lictorshame and other builds.
Sean is an amazing player and we cannot expect the list in another persons hands to do quite as well. Sean also had some easier matchups which helped.
Flyrant spam on the other hand is relatively easy to play.
Exactly.
Flyrant-spam is our most competitive build right now, just like Skyblight was back in 6th edition. That's all I am really saying.
Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.
Following on from this, jy2, do you think you could get a game in against your Tau friend with a LAN list (or lead me to a batrep which you've already done)? IIRC, there was a ton of Skyfire in the Tau list yet Pentyrant still won 6-4. It would be interesting to see how LAN fares against the same list (maybe some modifications, since the Tau list was slightly tailored).
I can already tell you how it would turn it without even playing it. I would most likely lose. Playing a semi-static army against his is almost an auto-lose. My biovores have no real good targets other than the marker drones (it isn't terribly efficient against massed 2+ units, especially ones with multi-wounds) and my exocrine will get picked apart before it can even do anything. Against my LAN, he wouldn't have to tailor his Tau list and thus, his TAC Tau list is even more deadly against a "normal" Tyranid list. IMO, MTO or flyer-spam is the best way to play against his list. You need to overload his list or you will get picked apart if you have to march towards it.
I would also argue that AV13 Wall Crons would work, since Flyrants would need to get behind a Necron vehicle before it could damage it (or use EGrubs).
I'd also hazard a guess that Venom spam could work or Raider spam, simply due to the amount of Poisoned shots they can dish out (even if firing at BS1, in the case of Raider Spam, they are TL). But that match up would be dependent on who went first, since a Flyrant would have no problems killing a Venom a turn. Maybe not a Raider (3+ Jink might save them) but I wouldn't take my chances on a Raider surviving.
GreenTide might work, simply due to the amount of bodies on the field (although I believe inControl's Hierodule list won against it, hooray for Stomps )
Other than that...not a lot comes to my mind.
Necron AV13, yes, I believe it can give flyrant-spam problems.
Venom/raider-spam DE? Nope. Using my Pentyrant list as an example, they've got to get through 3 Void Shields and then they are hitting units with 2+ cover. After that, they will need 6's to hit those units. The shoe is on the other foot now. Until DE gets more efficient at killing flyers (DE razorwing-spam, anyone?), now Tyranids are the potential bad matchup for them instead of vice versa.
The greentide cannot deal with flyrant-spam, at least not without resorting to tailoring against them with massed tracktor kannons. And even still, they won't have an easy fight against flyrant-spam.
c0j1r0 wrote: Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.
It is a good build. As a matter of fact, I think that it is just as viable as most of the other Tyranid formations here. Initially, people seemed to be stuck on the idea that it isn't very good due to the units not being ObSec. However, as ObSec units become less and less important with all the new formations coming out, I think it is time to revisit this build. To me, this type of army, the Endless Swarm, when combined with the Leviathan detachment, can be scary good. It can and will surprise a lot of people, much the same as Lictor-spam has surprised us all. Personally, I think we have a hidden gem here.
What I am stating is my opinion of what a top-tier Tyranid army is. It is only an opinion and you have a right to disagree with it.
That is my main thrust. I reject the opinion that the only way to compete in tournaments is to run 5 flyrants. It is such a violation of the social contract of 40k, and the goal of fun, meaningful games that I'm not even sure it should be in the conversation of Tyranid tournament builds.
I also reject it because celebrating it as the only viable Tyranid build before it has even been run in a single tourney is premature.
Likewise I reject it because it isn't a long term plan. It highlights the lie that a 2 source restriction is a meaningful path to fun games that matter. Tournaments will adapt, and for the next couple months 5 Flyrants might be a dominant tourney list, but then tourneys will fracture into those that favor an unlimited detachment, possibly unbound approach, and those with a more meaningful restriction on lists that preclude extreme spam like this, and in 6 months (or less) when we look back, 5 Flyrants will be an aberration while things like a Barbed Heirodule, Crones, Lictors, and LAN will still be a viable strategy.
What I am stating is my opinion of what a top-tier Tyranid army is. It is only an opinion and you have a right to disagree with it.
That is my main thrust. I reject the opinion that the only way to compete in tournaments is to run 5 flyrants. It is such a violation of the social contract of 40k, and the goal of fun, meaningful games that I'm not even sure it should be in the conversation of Tyranid tournament builds.
I also reject it because celebrating it as the only viable Tyranid build before it has even been run in a single tourney is premature.
Likewise I reject it because it isn't a long term plan. It highlights the lie that a 2 source restriction is a meaningful path to fun games that matter. Tournaments will adapt, and for the next couple months 5 Flyrants might be a dominant tourney list, but then tourneys will fracture into those that favor an unlimited detachment, possibly unbound approach, and those with a more meaningful restriction on lists that preclude extreme spam like this, and in 6 months (or less) when we look back, 5 Flyrants will be an aberration while things like a Barbed Heirodule, Crones, Lictors, and LAN will still be a viable strategy.
Its pretty easy to have the conclusion that 5 Flyrants will smash face and will have a good chance of coming top in a GT.
Again, it's match up dependant and you still can't just walk it, you'll need some degree of skill and supporting elements in the list.
2 source restriction is dead or will be. I expect to see it more restrictive than opening the doors to everything including unbound as that just creates even more of a mess.
I would expect to see 1 CAD + Ally or Formation. This is pretty much the norm for the UK at the moment. This means you could take 4 Flyrants max from Shield of Baal CAD + Skyblight.
It's not the only way to compete with Tyranids for sure but it is by far the easiest most smash face build you could take.
There's not really a goal of fun if you want to win a GT, you take the most cheese possible or something so out there no one has a clue how to deal with it before its too late.
No ones going to hold back if you haven't got what they consider to be a strong list. Instead they will take full advantage of the weaknesses in your list.
c0j1r0 wrote: Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.
It is a good build. As a matter of fact, I think that it is just as viable as most of the other Tyranid formations here. Initially, people seemed to be stuck on the idea that it isn't very good due to the units not being ObSec. However, as ObSec units become less and less important with all the new formations coming out, I think it is time to revisit this build. To me, this type of army, the Endless Swarm, when combined with the Leviathan detachment, can be scary good. It can and will surprise a lot of people, much the same as Lictor-spam has surprised us all. Personally, I think we have a hidden gem here.
I'm planning on using it in a tourney next month. My list right now is:
1500 points is:
CAD:
1 Flyrant w/ 2x Devourers and Egrubs
5 DS Rippers
1 Crone
2 Trygon Primes
Endless Swarm:
1 Warriors unit no upgrades
3 Hormagaunt no upgrades
2 Devilgaunts
I don't have time to put a big thing in, just pointing out that all those match ups you listed Jy2 are well off the mark. Is Ad lance really some ez match up for Flyrants? Pretty sure its a bad match up for both. Drop pods being a bad match up for ground nids? Sheesh, I can barely think of a harder counter in the GAME for drop pod marines than Nidzilla. That one is much worse for Flyrants. I'm not really sure what your LAN list is but would be interesting to see what the list behind your theory is, but as someone whose practiced with BOTH builds I can solidly say the match ups you listed are not significantly easier for Flyrants at all. What is your LAN list that you are using for these match ups?
LAN is a good build but it is not a top-tier Tyranid build. A flyrant-spam Tyranid army is because it is more tactically flexible and also better equipped to handle a wider range of armies than LAN or most of the other Tyranid builds as well.
No, it's just taking 3 more Flyrants and expecting 5 of them to do the job every game. Plenty of games they will, except for the games where you run into a list with plenty of Skyfire or Flyrant counters, then you are far worse off than LAN in this match up
"Flyrant spam is top tier because its better"
I'm not actually seeing any supporting logic behind this. Your handpicked list of match ups where LAN falls behind Flyrants is either A. factually incorrect like in the case of drop pods, or B. match ups where Flyrants are not significantly better off at all. What is the hard counter to LAN? It can in theory take any match up, not necessarily with auto-win odds but often with positive. Don't think that because you got that victory against questionably handled Skyfire Tau, that Flyrants do not have a clear cut counter. It might not be enough to autowin, but its well and truly enough to make it an unlikely victory for Flyrants. anda very likely victor for LAN in this match up, but reverse this and I can't think of any competitive army I've practiced where LAN has a negative win ratio yet Flyrants will have a positive one. LAN is far more thoroughly the TAC choice, until you can show a list where LAN is likely to LOSE but Flyrant is likely to WIN, this whole talk of Flyrants being the only top-tier build for Nids because of flexibility versatility better equipped blah blah, is just words and not actual supporting evidence.
I've got to ask you Shuppet....have you played against those types of armies against players who know how to run them? Have you played the new flyrant-spam builds yet? If not, then perhaps you can enlighten us with your views after you've had the chance to give it a try against some of the lists I have mentioned.
LAN can beat Imperial Knights, but they have a much tougher time doing so. Against such an army, it will be the flyrants doing most of the work while the LAN looks for targets to deal with. With flyrant-spam, they have an easier time because there are more "weapons" to deal with a knight army. Just FYI, but here is an example of an Adlance army that I have run before:
Adlance - 3 Imperial Knights
Farseer - jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Spirit Stones (my Daemon summoner)
2x3 Jetbikes (in reserves, hugs the board edges and spreads out against barrage/blast heavy armies)
2 Wraithknights
I don't think you're going to find the LAN doing all that much against this type of army.
As for drop pod marines, I'll tell you exactly what happens. I drop a lot of drop pods into your deployment zone, combat squadding all of my marines. Yeah, nidzilla will eventually take them all apart, but guess what? It's Turn 4 and most of your units are still in your deployment zone whereas I've got ObSec marines on all of the objectives, shooting down any MSU units like deepstriking rippers that try to get near. You lose not because you can't deal with massed MEQ's, but because your army is grossly out of position. That is how marines will beat you, unless you run a highly mobile Tyranid army.
As for taking 2-3 extra flyrants over a LAN list, you're damn right it makes all the difference in the world. You talk about bad matchups. A flyrant-spam list has a lot less bad matchups than most of the other Tyranid builds, including the LAN. But me telling you otherwise isn't going to matter at all. You've got to try that army yourself to understand what I am talking about.
What I am stating is my opinion of what a top-tier Tyranid army is. It is only an opinion and you have a right to disagree with it.
That is my main thrust. I reject the opinion that the only way to compete in tournaments is to run 5 flyrants. It is such a violation of the social contract of 40k, and the goal of fun, meaningful games that I'm not even sure it should be in the conversation of Tyranid tournament builds.
I also reject it because celebrating it as the only viable Tyranid build before it has even been run in a single tourney is premature.
Likewise I reject it because it isn't a long term plan. It highlights the lie that a 2 source restriction is a meaningful path to fun games that matter. Tournaments will adapt, and for the next couple months 5 Flyrants might be a dominant tourney list, but then tourneys will fracture into those that favor an unlimited detachment, possibly unbound approach, and those with a more meaningful restriction on lists that preclude extreme spam like this, and in 6 months (or less) when we look back, 5 Flyrants will be an aberration while things like a Barbed Heirodule, Crones, Lictors, and LAN will still be a viable strategy.
That's fine. No one ever said a top-tier army is a "fun" army to play against. Mechdar isn't fun to play against. Neither is the seer council or the centurionstar or Necron AV13-spam or Adlance knights, but you still see people run them in competitive play. Personally, I also don't like the fact that we have a mechdar-esque build with our Tyranids and that Tyranids may soon be seen as "that army", but that doesn't change the fact that flyrant-spam is most likely our strongest tournament army currently (unfortunately). Believe me, I am with you. I'd be happy to see tournament make changes to curb flyrant-spam. They may or they may not, I really don't know, but until changes are made, flyrant-spam is currently our most powerful, if not pleasant, build.
BTW, just so that we are clear, you don't have to run 5-flyrants to compete in a tournament, but if you really, really want to win, then flyrant-spam will give you the best chances at doing so. It doesn't mean that other Tyranid builds cannot compete. They can. It's just that their chances of winning the whole thing are a lot less.
No disrespect Shuppet but I agree completely with JY2.
Do you have some competitive players in your locale that you can test some of your thoughts against?
There's no point jumping to any conclusion without the experience/wisdom to ponder such questions. It is just fact (I'm not going to give you a detailed argument right now) that most other Tyranid builds will struggle against most of the other races top tier builds in the current meta.
Jy2, what is your opinion of the Harridan vs a Barbed Hierodule in the tyranid Lord of war slot? To me it seems way better, even with the higher price tag.
Also, is it on the BAO banned list, because I never see you or iNcoNTroL using one. If it is banned, why?
c0j1r0 wrote: Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.
It is a good build. As a matter of fact, I think that it is just as viable as most of the other Tyranid formations here. Initially, people seemed to be stuck on the idea that it isn't very good due to the units not being ObSec. However, as ObSec units become less and less important with all the new formations coming out, I think it is time to revisit this build. To me, this type of army, the Endless Swarm, when combined with the Leviathan detachment, can be scary good. It can and will surprise a lot of people, much the same as Lictor-spam has surprised us all. Personally, I think we have a hidden gem here.
I'm planning on using it in a tourney next month. My list right now is:
1500 points is:
CAD:
1 Flyrant w/ 2x Devourers and Egrubs
5 DS Rippers
1 Crone
2 Trygon Primes
Endless Swarm:
1 Warriors unit no upgrades
3 Hormagaunt no upgrades
2 Devilgaunts
I have 20 points left for whatever.
Your list is illegal. You need 2 troops in your primary CAD. Also I'd double check the formation again. It might have been changed to 3 hormagants and 3 termagants, though I don't have my "book" with me currently.
There is 1 main problem with your list. You need to be able to control your reserves. In such a list, the Comms Relay is almost mandatory. The last thing you want is for your trygons to come in on Turn 4.
My other recommendation - get a malanthrope or, if Forgeworld is not allowed, a venomthrope. It'll make your horde much more survivable.
I don't know if you can acquire and paint these units before your tournament (perhaps you can borrow from someone?), but here is what I recommend:
1 Flyrant w/ 2x Devourers and Egrubs
3 DS Rippers
3 DS Rippers
2 Trygon Primes
Venomthrope (if you can afford to, I'd go with a malanthrope instead)
Bastion w/Comms Relay
Endless Swarm:
1 Warriors unit no upgrades
3 Hormagaunt no upgrades
2 Devilgaunts
You might want to double-check if you need 2 or 3 units termagants. If it is 3, you can drop some of the devilgants (or run a mixed unit, something like 10+10) and perhaps downgrade one of your Trygon Primes to a normal trygon.
I don't mean to keep the debate going, mostly because its semantics, and we essentially all agree (by degrees) that these two lists are pretty damn awesome. :-p
I do just want to say that LAN has been ok for me in the past against Knights, if only because an Exocrine and Flyrant will synergize. They choose their shield facing, and between a maneuvered Flyrant and the Exocrine, something will be taking wounds off of a Knight. The duo likely won't tag-team a Knight from full wounds to dead in a single round, but they will have done a good bit of work.
c0j1r0 wrote: Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.
It is a good build. As a matter of fact, I think that it is just as viable as most of the other Tyranid formations here. Initially, people seemed to be stuck on the idea that it isn't very good due to the units not being ObSec. However, as ObSec units become less and less important with all the new formations coming out, I think it is time to revisit this build. To me, this type of army, the Endless Swarm, when combined with the Leviathan detachment, can be scary good. It can and will surprise a lot of people, much the same as Lictor-spam has surprised us all. Personally, I think we have a hidden gem here.
I'm planning on using it in a tourney next month. My list right now is:
1500 points is:
CAD:
1 Flyrant w/ 2x Devourers and Egrubs
5 DS Rippers
1 Crone
2 Trygon Primes
Endless Swarm:
1 Warriors unit no upgrades
3 Hormagaunt no upgrades
2 Devilgaunts
I have 20 points left for whatever.
Your list is illegal. You need 2 troops in your primary CAD. Also I'd double check the formation again. It might have been changed to 3 hormagants and 3 termagants, though I don't have my "book" with me currently.
There is 1 main problem with your list. You need to be able to control your reserves. In such a list, the Comms Relay is almost mandatory. The last thing you want is for your trygons to come in on Turn 4.
My other recommendation - get a malanthrope or, if Forgeworld is not allowed, a venomthrope. It'll make your horde much more survivable.
I don't know if you can acquire and paint these units before your tournament (perhaps you can borrow from someone?), but here is what I recommend:
1 Flyrant w/ 2x Devourers and Egrubs
3 DS Rippers
3 DS Rippers
2 Trygon Primes
Venomthrope (if you can afford to, I'd go with a malanthrope instead)
Bastion w/Comms Relay
Endless Swarm:
1 Warriors unit no upgrades
3 Hormagaunt no upgrades
2 Devilgaunts
You might want to double-check if you need 2 or 3 units termagants. If it is 3, you can drop some of the devilgants (or run a mixed unit, something like 10+10) and perhaps downgrade one of your Trygon Primes to a normal trygon.
Good luck! Let us know how you do.
Oh, sorry, what I meant by 5 DS Rippers was 5x 3 DS Rippers
So, but I can see the use of a Comms relay, I've just never used one and don't think about it. I guess I'd need (for personal preference) to whip up a Tyranid bastion. I may have an outdated Invasion data slate, mine says 2 units of Termigants.
tetrisphreak wrote: Jy2, what is your opinion of the Harridan vs a Barbed Hierodule in the tyranid Lord of war slot? To me it seems way better, even with the higher price tag.
Also, is it on the BAO banned list, because I never see you or iNcoNTroL using one. If it is banned, why?
That's a really good question. Both are good. To me, it really depends on at what points-level you play at. I wouldn't recommend the Harridan at 1850 or below. I think you need at least 2K to be able to run the Harridan effectively. The problem is the support units. The more expensive the gargant, the less points you will have for your support units, and that is not a good thing.
I will give you examples and I will use the Leviathan formation as the foundation of my army. I am going to assume that you will want to get 3 flyrants in a competitive Tyranid army.
So 3 flyrants + Barbed Hierodule = 1255 (around there as I am going off memory with regards to cost).
3 flyrants + Harridan = ~1470?
At 1850 (common tournament format here in the US), with a BH build, you have about 600-pts for your support units.
At 1850, with a Harridan build, you only have 380-pts for your support units.
With my Pentyrant list, I have 650-pts for my support units and I still feel that is not enough support units. With only 380-pts? Forget it. The Harridan army becomes a really unbalanced flyer army with not enough ground units to support it in objectives games.
Thus, while the Harridan is the better Gargant, the Hierodule-based army will be the stronger army at lower points because it is the more balanced TAC army. Personally, I think that when you get to the 2250+ level, then the Harridan army can potentially become the more effective army.
As for being banned, I actually haven't checked. If it is banned, it is probably because it is a flying Gargantuan and they were probably concerned that it could prove to be frustrating to a lot of players. Personally, I don't think it needs to be banned (that is, if it is actually banned). I'd recommend you to email to Reece himself, or PM him here on dakka, if you're interested in bringing the Harridan to one of his tournaments.
Oh, sorry, what I meant by 5 DS Rippers was 5x 3 DS Rippers
So, but I can see the use of a Comms relay, I've just never used one and don't think about it. I guess I'd need (for personal preference) to whip up a Tyranid bastion. I may have an outdated Invasion data slate, mine says 2 units of Termigants.
In that case, it becomes easier to make those changes to your list. You really don't need 5 units of rippers, not when you have respawning troops in your armies. You could swap out some of those rippers for other units. In your list, it's actually ok just to run 2x3 DS rippers.
In any case, Reserves manipulation is key to your army working properly. You need to be able to control your reserves.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I don't mean to keep the debate going, mostly because its semantics, and we essentially all agree (by degrees) that these two lists are pretty damn awesome. :-p
I do just want to say that LAN has been ok for me in the past against Knights, if only because an Exocrine and Flyrant will synergize. They choose their shield facing, and between a maneuvered Flyrant and the Exocrine, something will be taking wounds off of a Knight. The duo likely won't tag-team a Knight from full wounds to dead in a single round, but they will have done a good bit of work.
LAN can deal with knights. They just don't do it as efficiently as flyrant-spam. With LAN, you have exocrine most likely to the knights front AV13 and flyrant to the side. With flyrant-spam, you can put 1 flyrant to the left, right and rear of the knight. That's 3 facings and 3 egrubs that the knight has to contend with. Triple-spam can potentially take down 1 knight a turn! Short of the barbed hierodule + multiple flyrants, flyrant-spam is our most efficient way to deal with a Knight army.
c0j1r0 wrote: What would the advantage of running a bastion over an ADL be?
Your venomthrope won't die against Tau or mechdar. You've got a place for your flyrant to hide if terrain is sparse. Your bastion can actually hold your home objective so that the rest of the army can advance aggressively. It's got heavy bolters that your venomthrope can fire.
Hey all, sort new to nids and still fairly fresh to the game in general..looking for some list ideas based off of what i have..i play in a 100% relaxed none agressive area with close friends..if you guy/gals could give me pointers on building an alright list, i would appreciate it...heres what i got..
Zande4 wrote: How are you both misreading what he's saying this much? I honestly don't even know what's happening...
He said 5 Flyrants is the best build Tyranids have. Not once has he said all other builds are invalid and uncompetitive, in fact he says the opposite a page back stating Tyranids currently have the MOST competitive builds of all armies, while also stating that LAN is good...
Stop using this thin fallback for every counterpoint made to his argument lol, I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm not responding to him saying anything is "invalid or uncompetitive" which I'm well aware he is not, I'm responding to him saying that LAN is not top tier, by providing my argument as to why it is. All this finger pointing about us misreading and accusing jy2 of saying Nidzilla is trash tier, where are you getting it from?
Here's one for you
tag8833 wrote: So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list?
And what? Every counterpoint? Thin fallback? So far you've called out jy2's logic behind the Pentyrant list saying "it's better because it is" by responding with "it's not because it isn't"
You can link me to your LAN Batreps if you'd like.
Top tier = the very best. LAN was not shutting down Waveserpent spam as far as I'm aware of. You can't just lump something at the top because you like it and feel it deserves it.
I'd also like to point out that LAN fails against av13 Necrons too and Skyrays will ruin it just as much as they will ruin Pentyrant. I'f I'm not mistaken LAN still takes 2-3 Flyrants.
tag8833 wrote: You said LAN is not a top-tier competitive build, and your list of top tier competitive builds is 1 build long. I don't think that is quite fair. Lictorshame won a GT. Several Barbed Heirodule lists have come real close, and won lots of RTTs. Flyrants + Crones are winning GT's in Europe.
Flyrant spam has fewer bad matchups in the current meta. That is true. But I think to use that to conclude that it is the only top-tier competitive build is going a bit overboard.
The Lictorshame list that you've taken every chance to remind us was in a tournament tailored to it and therefore should not be taken as seriously? Or was that only when it suited your argument?
At this point I feel you both like to be contrary for the sake of it, while not always a bad thing as it breeds discussion it's gotten to the point where you're making things up and deliberately interpreting things wrong ie. It's not top tier therefore it's the worst.
c0j1r0 wrote: Does its shroud cloud extend out of the bastion?
Yes.
Crimson Heretic wrote: Hey all, sort new to nids and still fairly fresh to the game in general..looking for some list ideas based off of what i have..i play in a 100% relaxed none agressive area with close friends..if you guy/gals could give me pointers on building an alright list, i would appreciate it...heres what i got..
its a slow process to gather the models that are decent or popular, because we lack a reliable GW store in our area
thank you
How many points do you normally run at? The idea is to build as best you can a Take-All-Comer's list with what you've got. If you have a points level in mind, we can give you suggestions on what type of list to run.
c0j1r0 wrote: Does its shroud cloud extend out of the bastion?
Yes.
Crimson Heretic wrote: Hey all, sort new to nids and still fairly fresh to the game in general..looking for some list ideas based off of what i have..i play in a 100% relaxed none agressive area with close friends..if you guy/gals could give me pointers on building an alright list, i would appreciate it...heres what i got..
its a slow process to gather the models that are decent or popular, because we lack a reliable GW store in our area
thank you
How many points do you normally run at? The idea is to build as best you can a Take-All-Comer's list with what you've got. If you have a points level in mind, we can give you suggestions on what type of list to run.
Crimson Heretic wrote: Hey all, sort new to nids and still fairly fresh to the game in general..looking for some list ideas based off of what i have..i play in a 100% relaxed none agressive area with close friends..if you guy/gals could give me pointers on building an alright list, i would appreciate it...heres what i got..
its a slow process to gather the models that are decent or popular, because we lack a reliable GW store in our area
thank you
So 1200-1500? That's a tough one. You CANNOT build a TAC army with this list because your army just doesn't have the tools to do so. But I will offer whatever advice I can anyways. First off, does you or your opponents mind if you proxy? For example, would you or your opponents mind if you ran your hive tyrant on foot as a flyrant with 2x Brainleech Devourers? Or how about your carnifex with 2x Brainleech Devourers? What about if you run your termagants as 10 fleshborers (or spine-fists) and 10 devourers?
I think there is a decent formation you can use, called the Children of Crypus. It involves your genestealers + Broodlord. I will base your list off of that formation:
I'm not sure exactly how many points this is (don't have my codex with me), but I think it is somewhere around 1300-pts.
Tactics for his army.
1. Genestealers should be infiltrating. Try to trail them back to be in range of your venomthrope. This way, they will be getting 2+ cover with any type of cover.
2. Use Hive Commander to outflank one of your units, whether it be 1 unit of devilgants or the dakkafex.
3. Use your gargoyles as a screening unit for the rest of the army. Make sure to trail at least 1 model back to within venomthrope shrouding range.
4. When advancing with your horde, always have at least a couple of units from each horde trailing back to your venomthrope to give them cover.
5. Rippers should be deepstriking in onto objectives.
6. The army on the whole should be advancing. The only unit(s) that won't is a unit that you leave on your home objective.
I think the whole LAN vs Pentyrant has run its course pretty effectively. Opinions have been presented for both sides, and both sides have provided varying levels of rationale as to why they take their position. I'm sure that everything will sort itself out once a couple tournaments are run, as everyone will have their choice of which to field and I think that the results (in addition to the Tyranid army compositions) will speak for themselves.
Personally I don't see myself running LAN in the near future. I would prefer to rock a Hierodule and while I know that LAN can synergize well with it, it's just not my personal preference. And completely aside with whether or not you are a fan of how LAN performs, it is actually a pretty big cut-back within the current standard 2 source format. You could take it with leviathan to gain 3 Flyrants, but I think that the complete lack of objective secured is still an issue that I would prefer to avoid. Otherwise, you can only take two. Which is not the end of the world. Pre-leviathan that was it outside of self-ally anyway. But the point is that there is a pretty big chasm between 5 and 2 Flyrants. Or 5 and 3 plus no obsec. Something to consider.
I doubt I'll be running 5 Flyrants any time soon either, but four plus dusting off my Skyblight seems like an interesting idea. Plus lictors. I actually don't think that they are quite the flash in the pan that some people have made them out to be. Even beyond the synergy of their Mawloc combo, they are pretty durable for a 50 pt unit that can go to ground (and still contribute the next turn if you play it right). Will certainly be trying those out in the near future.
By the way, those of you who run a bastion - if you're just using it for a Comms relay (not sticking a Malanthrope in it) - heresy, I know - has anyone had issues with a Bunker instead? It's cheaper but doesn't have as much BLOS capability, which is sad. Trying to finagle the last couple points for my list
luke1705 wrote: Personally I don't see myself running LAN in the near future. I would prefer to rock a Hierodule and while I know that LAN can synergize well with it, it's just not my personal preference. And completely aside with whether or not you are a fan of how LAN performs, it is actually a pretty big cut-back within the current standard 2 source format. You could take it with leviathan to gain 3 Flyrants, but I think that the complete lack of objective secured is still an issue that I would prefer to avoid. Otherwise, you can only take two. Which is not the end of the world. Pre-leviathan that was it outside of self-ally anyway. But the point is that there is a pretty big chasm between 5 and 2 Flyrants. Or 5 and 3 plus no obsec. Something to consider.
Bigger issue with LAN for me is the lack of a fortification slot if you do Leviathan + Formation. It means you can't run a reserve heavy army, and you are more dependent on terrain.
Zande4 wrote: How are you both misreading what he's saying this much? I honestly don't even know what's happening...
He said 5 Flyrants is the best build Tyranids have. Not once has he said all other builds are invalid and uncompetitive, in fact he says the opposite a page back stating Tyranids currently have the MOST competitive builds of all armies, while also stating that LAN is good...
Stop using this thin fallback for every counterpoint made to his argument lol, I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm not responding to him saying anything is "invalid or uncompetitive" which I'm well aware he is not, I'm responding to him saying that LAN is not top tier, by providing my argument as to why it is. All this finger pointing about us misreading and accusing jy2 of saying Nidzilla is trash tier, where are you getting it from?
Here's one for you
tag8833 wrote: So your point of view is that any list that isn't 5 flyrants is a loser list?
And what? Every counterpoint? Thin fallback? So far you've called out jy2's logic behind the Pentyrant list saying "it's better because it is" by responding with "it's not because it isn't" You can link me to your LAN Batreps if you'd like.
Yeah, because I'm a Tag alt, so anything I say, you can counter with stuff that he has said as if I'd said it myself.
~_~
Top tier = the very best. LAN was not shutting down Waveserpent spam as far as I'm aware of. You can't just lump something at the top because you like it and feel it deserves it. I'd also like to point out that LAN fails against av13 Necrons too and Skyrays will ruin it just as much as they will ruin Pentyrant. I'f I'm not mistaken LAN still takes 2-3 Flyrants.
Is this practiced or is this projection? I think I already know the answer, because as the one other person who consistently plays a LAN has already told you, these are not LAN counters. Wave Serpent I have a positive win ratio against in 7 games with the most recent iteration of my build. Nobody is saying they are easy wins, just that your only comparison is to Flyrant spam, which is a fairly balanced match up for these as well.
Yes, I play against a sensible players, if not, I'm practicing vs myself and playing as hard as I can, not the type to give myself breaks. I don't ever take a game against someone who is playing casually as relevant to anything competitive and just leave such experiences out of competitive discussion and take it as dice-rolling fun. I'm not as hugely vested in this argument as others, but I must note, that instead of logic I'm just seeing a lot of diversions from countering a the logic in the argument, such constantly trying to devolve this argument into some back and forth about Tag (and myself too apparently, somehow) not comprehending that Jy2 doesn't think LAN is a Vespid level build (yes, we know that, it's clearly a response to the statements he DID make), or falling back from that to finger pointing that to win against such builds your opponents must be uncompetitive (something you would have absolutely no idea over), in a match up that has clearly gone unpracticed by you. My Eldar friend is the type who travels cross country to make it to every event, he has a collection larger than my Nids and I own multiples of practically everything except the brand new stuff, and the guy also a T.O. at times himself, I'm not sure exactly how much more competitive you need to be to considered justifiable. No, I'm not going to sit down and write a Battlereport just to be allowed to have an OPINION on a match up, I barely have time to get on to post these days, how is this anything but elitist. Also, considering that I've practiced builds of BOTH persuasions against the same players, it would be fair to say that this would have little outcome on my opinion on the differences between the two builds. I haven't been able to get on much lately, but is this really what this thread has come to?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: I think the whole LAN vs Pentyrant has run its course pretty effectively.
I think a TAC list is going the way of the dodo. With the meta so diverse these days I find better results building hyper-focused lists that excel at 1 thing or gimmick and playing as best to the mission as possible when facing Rock Paper Scissors match ups.
Do you roll for reserves first, or test for Instinctive Behavior?
Say I have a Hormagaunts unit out I synapse, an a Tervigon in reserve. Do I roll the reserves first to get it in Synapse before I roll for. Instinctive Behavior, or do I take Instinctive Behavior tests before anything else?
Pretty sure I can choose the order, but I would like some confirmation.
So, I'm curious what everyone has found out about the best way to use the Tyrannocyte. I've given it quite a few tests, but have been stymied drawing too many conclusions, because my opponents for the tests have not been prepared for them, and I've either won big or lost big. No close games.
Here were my initial observations. These are all perliminary, and I'm only listing them to see where they might differ from other people's experiences.
Spoiler:
TFex - Disappointing
Dakkafex - Stunning. Fixes his survival and mobility issues.
Devourer Gants - Excellent
Tyranid Prime w/ fodder - highly situational. It's kinda fun for some reason
Tyranid Prime w/ Tyrant guard - Only did it once, and had great results.
Dimacharon - Only tried it 3 times. Once the Dima got killed by Eldar shooting. The other 2 times he was wasted assaulting MSU.
Hive Guard - Haven't tried it.
Hormagants - Worked better than expected. Dropped them, disembarked, and then ran to score one objective and contest another.
Toxicrine - Haven't Tried it.
Zoeys - Bad
Pyrovores - Tried it once. They didn't come in until 4 when I had him basically tabled.
Warriors - Better than expected, still rather have Shrikes or Raveners.
Tervigon - Disappointing
The pod itself - Very impressive. I've only lost 1 to shooting. They score objectives, and chip away at opponents. I like the VC because it can threaten AV 12, and is deadly to Xenos infantry. However, it is annoying to use, and I've settled on the deathspitters in most cases. I love the gametime versatility to swap what they carry, or run them empty. Honestly, I end up using them like a mix between rippers and Lictors most of the time. They can be killed, but not as easily as either of those, and they do more damage than either one. If they could run, and/or assault I would be looking to include one in all of my TAC lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tetrisphreak wrote: I think a TAC list is going the way of the dodo. With the meta so diverse these days I find better results building hyper-focused lists that excel at 1 thing or gimmick and playing as best to the mission as possible when facing Rock Paper Scissors match ups.
I think that is true right now, and will continue to be true until people start embracing a meaningful fix the FOC system.
tag8833 wrote: So, I'm curious what everyone has found out about the best way to use the Tyrannocyte. I've given it quite a few tests, but have been stymied drawing too many conclusions, because my opponents for the tests have not been prepared for them, and I've either won big or lost big. No close games.
Here were my initial observations. These are all perliminary, and I'm only listing them to see where they might differ from other people's experiences.
Spoiler:
TFex - Disappointing
Dakkafex - Stunning. Fixes his survival and mobility issues.
Devourer Gants - Excellent
Tyranid Prime w/ fodder - highly situational. It's kinda fun for some reason
Tyranid Prime w/ Tyrant guard - Only did it once, and had great results.
Dimacharon - Only tried it 3 times. Once the Dima got killed by Eldar shooting. The other 2 times he was wasted assaulting MSU.
Hive Guard - Haven't tried it.
Hormagants - Worked better than expected. Dropped them, disembarked, and then ran to score one objective and contest another.
Toxicrine - Haven't Tried it.
Zoeys - Bad
Pyrovores - Tried it once. They didn't come in until 4 when I had him basically tabled.
Warriors - Better than expected, still rather have Shrikes or Raveners.
Tervigon - Disappointing
The pod itself - Very impressive. I've only lost 1 to shooting. They score objectives, and chip away at opponents. I like the VC because it can threaten AV 12, and is deadly to Xenos infantry. However, it is annoying to use, and I've settled on the deathspitters in most cases. I love the gametime versatility to swap what they carry, or run them empty. Honestly, I end up using them like a mix between rippers and Lictors most of the time. They can be killed, but not as easily as either of those, and they do more damage than either one. If they could run, and/or assault I would be looking to include one in all of my TAC lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tetrisphreak wrote: I think a TAC list is going the way of the dodo. With the meta so diverse these days I find better results building hyper-focused lists that excel at 1 thing or gimmick and playing as best to the mission as possible when facing Rock Paper Scissors match ups.
I think that is true right now, and will continue to be true until people start embracing a meaningful fix the FOC system.
I LOVED using a Dakkafex, T-fex, Hive Guard out of them so far.
Dbl flamer t-fex lived and did better than the Dakkafex, mainly b.c my opponents didnt have ap2 guns and it had less wounds.
I did the 6man unit + Neuro Zones and that was amazing!! yes its 400pts, but 12 3++ wounds doing 6 Shots unit was just amazing. I wouldnt use them in games less than 2k tho (that big of a unit I mean).
Dakkafex in a pod is a beast. Tier 1 stuff every time.
Tfex in a pod is more situational. Against xenos he has shined, being MVP in games vs Deldar and Orks. Vs Marines his damage output doesnt fit the investment.
His survivability is always good an roughly the same in every game. What changes is if the flamers get past your opponets armor and if they get to double up like when hitting open toppedtransports
sn0zcumb3r wrote: Dakkafex in a pod is a beast. Tier 1 stuff every time.
Tfex in a pod is more situational. Against xenos he has shined, being MVP in games vs Deldar and Orks. Vs Marines his damage output doesnt fit the investment.
His survivability is always good an roughly the same in every game. What changes is if the flamers get past your opponets armor and if they get to double up like when hitting open toppedtransports
Yes, Even tho I like the Tfex A Lot, I feel the Carnifex is much more viable and the best for TAC lists in pods.
c0j1r0 wrote: Has anyone tried pairing an Endless Swarm with Trygon tunnels? I've been tossing the idea around for a few days now and wonder it anyone has tried and/or had success with it.
This formation is actually the first thing I built an army around when starting the game. The formation is good, but you definitely have to build for it. I've been running something along the lines of:
2 Flyrants
2 single Zoanthropes
2 DS Ripper squads
Trygon & Trygon Prime
And the the formation. Obviously I rapidly learned that you /need/ shrouded - I'd recommend 2x Venoms or Malans if you have to be quite honest, you have so many units that you need the additional model to be able to cover anything.
The other thing is that you generally do not get anywhere near the number of respawns you expect, purely because a smart opponent does not fully kill units often. The best I had was a game with 11 units instead of 6, which was excellent, but generally it's 1-3 more.
The formation itself is actually very interesting though, mostly in terms of what it does to opponents psychologically - what do they shoot? It's also a difficult decision which direction to go with it: do you run minimum units just to exploit the respawns, or larger ones which soak up significantly more points? I've done both approaches, and generally I think in larger games making the respawning units somewhat of a threat is a good idea, as it prevents the opponent just picking off everything else and whittling them down. I tend to go with 3x 18 Termas with 12 Devourers, who are the stars of the formation for sure, doing a ton of damage; 25 Hormas (used as a screen for the rest of the army) and 2x 15 poison Hormas. The Hormas tend to get shot first, so I am leaning towards not upgrading them and keeping them small, but equally you could go the other route and run 3x30 Hormas just to drown the foe in bodies. One thing I intend to try when I get some pods is putting 20 Devilgaunts in them and seeing how that goes - as they are fantastic when coming out of Trygon holes. I also think an ADL for the comms relay might be worth trying along with the Bastion idea, as 2+ covers on my units for the first turn without having to rely on terrain sounds pretty great, and if you put it 6-9" from your deployment zone you can just have Hormas bound over it with ease!
The other big issue is lists heavy on armour, as you have very little to deal with it. Luckily, as generally you will be playing objectives you can still win, however. Essentially, it's a good list, but you have to delicately balance how much you invest into the formation to not make it low impact VS how much you have outside of it to be able to deal with other things.
I've steamrolled the opposition in the games I've tried my new 'null' deployment list. Tyrannocytes are brutal, when they reach critical mass. I agree that the Dakkafex is the TAC king in a pod, but when I already have two, I feel that the Egrub T-fex has a place. He's just great to flush out cover hugging xenos and spawns and deterring Surflords and Walkers from charging his Wall of Death Haywire template. He has way better staying power than a Carnifex and he doesn't need synaps babysitting, which is huge in a drop list.
sn0zcumb3r wrote: Tfex in a pod is more situational. Against xenos he has shined, being MVP in games vs Deldar and Orks. Vs Marines his damage output doesnt fit the investment.
His survivability is always good an roughly the same in every game. What changes is if the flamers get past your opponets armor and if they get to double up like when hitting open toppedtransports
I've run TFex in a pod 7-8 times now. He had one sensational game against Venom spam Dark Eldar. (Killed 3-4 venoms and their passengers). He's contributed a few times in other games, but overall is just underwhelming.
Sorry, odd question of the day; can a FMC choose Skyfire? I believe the answer is yes, by RAW, but what about a SkyTyrant? That cannot fly by special rule? I was wondering over breakfast this AM...
pinecone77 wrote: Sorry, odd question of the day; can a FMC choose Skyfire? I believe the answer is yes, by RAW, but what about a SkyTyrant? That cannot fly by special rule? I was wondering over breakfast this AM...
Only while Swooping.
Interesting to note, it can choose it for each phase, so a Hive Tyrant with Warp Blast could fire a Warp Blast with Skyfire at a Storm Talon during the Psychic Phase, then fire at Marines on the ground with TLDevs in the Shooting Phase.
pinecone77 wrote: Sorry, odd question of the day; can a FMC choose Skyfire? I believe the answer is yes, by RAW, but what about a SkyTyrant? That cannot fly by special rule? I was wondering over breakfast this AM...
Only while Swooping.
Interesting to note, it can choose it for each phase, so a Hive Tyrant with Warp Blast could fire a Warp Blast with Skyfire at a Storm Talon during the Psychic Phase, then fire at Marines on the ground with TLDevs in the Shooting Phase.
Thanx, so I understand that as no, a SkyTyrant cannot Skyfire. I thought that was the case, but was not too sure. Nice point about Skyfire Witchfire. I had not thought of that.
Another point about the Warp Blast tyrant that I came across - when used first/early on in the psychic phase you can pull a neat trick:
Your opponent has to declare whether or not he is going to jink before you declare how many psychic dice you're going to throw at warp lance/blast. This works well for infantry but more importantly for flyers. You can make them jink and be pretty useless, then throw 1 psychic die at it and say "whoops I failed". Not something I would pull in casual games, but having a Flyrant make two different opposing units have vastly reduced offensive output the next turn (the second being whatever he shoots at in the shooting phase) is a lot better than one (about twice as good haha)
Hey guys do the tyrranocytes that carry a troops choice tervigon or devourer-gaunts have ObSec? If so i'll be using them more with a double template tervigon haha
Also depends on if you're running the Children of Cryptus or just some Genestealers and some nameless Broodlord. The Children have a set loadout, and Stealth, while the normal Stealers can be part of bigger Formations. Broodlord Hunting Pack for instance.
To be honest, I'm only probably going to experiment with them and not use them in my main list. As I only have these 8 and the Spawn of Cryptus. If I'm only going to run 1 unit plus Broodlord (or Spawn) what would you suggest?
Noctem wrote: To be honest, I'm only probably going to experiment with them and not use them in my main list. As I only have these 8 and the Spawn of Cryptus. If I'm only going to run 1 unit plus Broodlord (or Spawn) what would you suggest?
Thats wha they are saying....
You cant use the Cryptus without the Stealers having ST on them.
You can play test it a few times, but I do feel the Children of Cryptus is nice for stealers, But would only use IF I wanted a Broodlord and I wouldnt want it a Warlord. I personally feel that stealers are best as MSU of 5man units, 5 for 70pts having 2 units for Object sec/threat with Infiltrate isnt that bad. They still aren't Ideal at all but can be played.
Sinful Hero wrote: Spawn has to be run with the scytals- I think he has to have eight. With a Broodlord, most go cheap as possible(so no scytals), and a minimum unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm curious- if a Tyrannofex with a Rupture Cannon can get Preferred Enemy, is he decent for the points?
With 2 flamers in a Tyrannocyte can do alot of damage to hordes/mobs on the table.
The Cannon version you would walk it, It is ok IMO with a Swarmlord. (Swarmlord gives PE) so you have a better chance, but over all its not that good.
My question was mostly pertaining to Preferred Enemy to a walking Rupture Cannon T-Fex. If I'm taking a Swarmlord anyway(or providing Preferred Enemy through some other means-such as a formation or mission specific rule), does that push the Rupture Cannon into competitive playability?
Sinful Hero wrote: My question was mostly pertaining to Preferred Enemy to a walking Rupture Cannon T-Fex. If I'm taking a Swarmlord anyway(or providing Preferred Enemy through some other means-such as a formation or mission specific rule), does that push the Rupture Cannon into competitive playability?
I dont think competitive no. but thats my opinion.
So I got my first 40k games in for the first time in a few months, I played in a 2000 point RTT with a good number of competitive players. I brought, using a CAD and Leviathan detachment:
I'm curious- if a Tyrannofex with a Rupture Cannon can get Preferred Enemy, is he decent for the points?
Nope.
Sinful Hero wrote: My question was mostly pertaining to Preferred Enemy to a walking Rupture Cannon T-Fex. If I'm taking a Swarmlord anyway(or providing Preferred Enemy through some other means-such as a formation or mission specific rule), does that push the Rupture Cannon into competitive playability?
Sorry, no dice.
Against vehicles, without PE, the chances to hit is 50%.
With PE, it is slightly better at 58%.
However, hitting is only 1 of the problems. The other problem is that there is no way for the rupture cannon to explode a vehicle. Thus, even against a rhino, it can do at most 2HP's of damage a turn. So minimum is 2 turns of firing just to kill a rhino in a best-case scenario. On an average case scenario, it'll only do 1HP a turn so that's 3 turns just to kill a rhino! That's 3 turns for a 200-pt investment just to kill a 35-pt unit! WTF?!?
And that doesn't even factor in cover saves, which could make the average case scenario 4 turns just to kill a 35-pt unit by a 200-pt unit (approximately)!!! The T-fex with rupture cannon is the model of inefficiency when it comes down to dealing with vehicles.
jifel wrote: So I got my first 40k games in for the first time in a few months, I played in a 2000 point RTT with a good number of competitive players. I brought, using a CAD and Leviathan detachment:
Crimson Heretic wrote: Hey all, sort new to nids and still fairly fresh to the game in general..looking for some list ideas based off of what i have..i play in a 100% relaxed none agressive area with close friends..if you guy/gals could give me pointers on building an alright list, i would appreciate it...heres what i got..
its a slow process to gather the models that are decent or popular, because we lack a reliable GW store in our area
thank you
So 1200-1500? That's a tough one. You CANNOT build a TAC army with this list because your army just doesn't have the tools to do so. But I will offer whatever advice I can anyways. First off, does you or your opponents mind if you proxy? For example, would you or your opponents mind if you ran your hive tyrant on foot as a flyrant with 2x Brainleech Devourers? Or how about your carnifex with 2x Brainleech Devourers? What about if you run your termagants as 10 fleshborers (or spine-fists) and 10 devourers?
I think there is a decent formation you can use, called the Children of Crypus. It involves your genestealers + Broodlord. I will base your list off of that formation:
I'm not sure exactly how many points this is (don't have my codex with me), but I think it is somewhere around 1300-pts.
Tactics for his army.
1. Genestealers should be infiltrating. Try to trail them back to be in range of your venomthrope. This way, they will be getting 2+ cover with any type of cover.
2. Use Hive Commander to outflank one of your units, whether it be 1 unit of devilgants or the dakkafex.
3. Use your gargoyles as a screening unit for the rest of the army. Make sure to trail at least 1 model back to within venomthrope shrouding range.
4. When advancing with your horde, always have at least a couple of units from each horde trailing back to your venomthrope to give them cover.
5. Rippers should be deepstriking in onto objectives.
6. The army on the whole should be advancing. The only unit(s) that won't is a unit that you leave on your home objective.
thank you for the reply, now how exactly do you implement the formation into a list? are their requirments at all? Also the gargoyles blinding venom, its worded kind of oddly in the codex, if you exhcange your attacks to blind an enemy unit, do you still need to roll to hit and to wound or no? Also can you break down a brood of two zoan's psyker phase..say they want to manifest warp blast..do you roll once to see if you can generate the warp blast...then resolve two attacks for the price of one?(psyker brood)
I'm curious- if a Tyrannofex with a Rupture Cannon can get Preferred Enemy, is he decent for the points?
Nope.
Sinful Hero wrote: My question was mostly pertaining to Preferred Enemy to a walking Rupture Cannon T-Fex. If I'm taking a Swarmlord anyway(or providing Preferred Enemy through some other means-such as a formation or mission specific rule), does that push the Rupture Cannon into competitive playability?
Sorry, no dice.
Against vehicles, without PE, the chances to hit is 50%.
With PE, it is slightly better at 58%.
However, hitting is only 1 of the problems. The other problem is that there is no way for the rupture cannon to explode a vehicle. Thus, even against a rhino, it can do at most 2HP's of damage a turn. So minimum is 2 turns of firing just to kill a rhino in a best-case scenario. On an average case scenario, it'll only do 1HP a turn so that's 3 turns just to kill a rhino! That's 3 turns for a 200-pt investment just to kill a 35-pt unit! WTF?!?
And that doesn't even factor in cover saves, which could make the average case scenario 4 turns just to kill a 35-pt unit by a 200-pt unit (approximately)!!! The T-fex with rupture cannon is the model of inefficiency when it comes down to dealing with vehicles.
All of this is correct, but it is even worse than you outline. 1) You are paying 295 points for that preferred enemy on a non-durable platform that is crazy slow, and itself inefficient. 2) Preferred enemy helps you hit vehicles, but you've still got to roll to glance or pen them, and preferred enemy don't help you out there at all. So if we look at one of the more troubling vehicles that Tyranids face, Wave Serpents (Holo Fields)
Preferred enemy TFex does 0.32 Hull points to a wave serpent a turn. It only requiring 9 turns of shooting to kill it, and competitive lists run 4-6 Wave serpents.
Compare that to some other things:
Dakka Flyrant: 0.59 if out of E.Grubs range.
Dakka Flyrant: 1.20 if in E.Grubs range.
Dakkafex 0.5
Hive Guard 1.5 if no preferred enemy
Hive Guard 1.75 if preferred enemy
Also, fascinatingly enough, without a cover save, A wave serpent is doing 1.33 wounds to a Rupture Cannon TFex a turn. With a 2+ cover save it is only 0.96. So a wave serpent will statistically kill a rupture cannon TFex before the Tfex can kill it.
I think rupture Cannon TFex is solidly a "F" with or without preferred enemy.
thank you for the reply, now how exactly do you implement the formation into a list? are their requirments at all? Also the gargoyles blinding venom, its worded kind of oddly in the codex, if you exhcange your attacks to blind an enemy unit, do you still need to roll to hit and to wound or no? Also can you break down a brood of two zoan's psyker phase..say they want to manifest warp blast..do you roll once to see if you can generate the warp blast...then resolve two attacks for the price of one?(psyker brood)
There's no requirement really. All you need to do is to pay the points for the formation and have the right models (or if your opponent doesn't mind, proxy those models).
With blinding venom, you only need to roll to hit. If you hit at all, then your opponent would have to take the Initiative test for Blind. Note - he only needs to take 1 test, no matter how many blind attacks hit. Also, you are exchanging all of your attacks for each model for 1 blinding attack, even on the charge. Thus, 10 gargoyles charging in will only get 10 blinding attacks as opposed to 20 normal attacks on the charge.
A brood if 2 zoans, if they cast successfully, will get 2 shots. They only need to cast it once successfully, so yes, you get 2 attacks for the price of one. Note - they also only need to deny it once successfully to stop both attacks.
2 broods of 1 zoans will get 2 shots as well. However, each of them will need to cast warp blast separately and the enemy would have to successfully deny twice to deny both powers.
Now here's the difference between the two, and this is why I recommend going with 2 separate squads of 1 as long as you have enough FOC slots left. 1 unit of 2 generates 2 warp charges. 2 units of 1 generates 4 warp charges. Also, 2 unit of 1 generates 1 additional psychic power. That will double your chances of getting Catalyst or another useful Tyranid psychic power.
jy2 wrote: With blinding venom, you only need to roll to hit. If you hit at all, then your opponent would have to take the Initiative test for Blind. Note - he only needs to take 1 test, no matter how many blind attacks hit. Also, you are exchanging all of your attacks for each model for 1 blinding attack, even on the charge. Thus, 10 gargoyles charging in will only get 10 blinding attacks as opposed to 20 normal attacks on the charge.
You don't need to use blind for the entire squad. So I usually have 2-3 gargoyles use blind on the charge while the others do their normal attacks.
I really cannot decide over lists for a GT next month.
I've submitted this but am contemplating swapping out one mawloc for either 20 gargoyles or 15 gargoyles + 1 lictor.
Thoughts?!
The only things that will start on the board is the 3 hive tyrants, the malanthrope and maybe the hive crone ( Depending on first turn and strength 10 presence)
If I include the gargoyles it would be a solid option to defer some pew pew from the tyrants but I would have to sacrafice a mawloc.
I would really appreciate some responses as I am completely torn! The list below has been tested a few times and has won but on reflection the Mawlocs are not all that successful...
Wilson wrote: I really cannot decide over lists for a GT next month.
I've submitted this but am contemplating swapping out one mawloc for either 20 gargoyles or 15 gargoyles + 1 lictor.
Thoughts?!
The only things that will start on the board is the 3 hive tyrants, the malanthrope and maybe the hive crone ( Depending on first turn and strength 10 presence)
If I include the gargoyles it would be a solid option to defer some pew pew from the tyrants but I would have to sacrafice a mawloc.
I would really appreciate some responses as I am completely torn! The list below has been tested a few times and has won but on reflection the Mawlocs are not all that successful...
HQ 2: Hive Tyrant : Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ; Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ;Wings; Electroshock grubs;
HQ 3: Hive Tyrant : Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ; Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ;Wings; Electroshock grubs;
ELITE 1:1 Malanthrope
TROOP 1:1 Mucolid
TROOP 2:1 Mucolid
TROOP 3: 3 Ripper Swarms ;Deep strike
FAST ATTACK 1: Dimacheron
FAST ATTACK 2: Hive Crone
HEAVY SUPPORT 1: Mawloc
HEAVY SUPPORT 2: Mawloc
HEAVY SUPPORT 3: 1 Carnifex Brood; Twin-linked devourer with brain leech worms; Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms
HEAVY SUPPORT*: Tyrannocyte; Deathspitter
HEAVY SUPPORT*: Tyrannocyte: Deathspitter
I'd go with the 20 gargoyles. The Caledonian missions do not have a Maelstrom element, which is what lictors are great for. Instead, they run Purge the Alien in most of the missions so it's better to go with fewer units. Either keep the mawloc or swap them out for the gargoyles.
Also, I'd recommend going with DS rippers over mucolids whenever you can. If you're going to make changes, I'd go with dropping 1 mawloc + 1 mucolid for 3 DS rippers + gargoyles.
Wilson wrote: I really cannot decide over lists for a GT next month.
I've submitted this but am contemplating swapping out one mawloc for either 20 gargoyles or 15 gargoyles + 1 lictor.
Thoughts?!
The only things that will start on the board is the 3 hive tyrants, the malanthrope and maybe the hive crone ( Depending on first turn and strength 10 presence)
If I include the gargoyles it would be a solid option to defer some pew pew from the tyrants but I would have to sacrafice a mawloc.
I would really appreciate some responses as I am completely torn! The list below has been tested a few times and has won but on reflection the Mawlocs are not all that successful...
HQ 2: Hive Tyrant : Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ; Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ;Wings; Electroshock grubs;
HQ 3: Hive Tyrant : Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ; Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ;Wings; Electroshock grubs;
ELITE 1:1 Malanthrope
TROOP 1:1 Mucolid
TROOP 2:1 Mucolid
TROOP 3: 3 Ripper Swarms ;Deep strike
FAST ATTACK 1: Dimacheron
FAST ATTACK 2: Hive Crone
HEAVY SUPPORT 1: Mawloc
HEAVY SUPPORT 2: Mawloc
HEAVY SUPPORT 3: 1 Carnifex Brood; Twin-linked devourer with brain leech worms; Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms
HEAVY SUPPORT*: Tyrannocyte; Deathspitter
HEAVY SUPPORT*: Tyrannocyte: Deathspitter
I'd go with the 20 gargoyles. The Caledonian missions do not have a Maelstrom element, which is what lictors are great for. Instead, they run Purge the Alien in most of the missions so it's better to go with fewer units. Either keep the mawloc or swap them out for the gargoyles.
Also, I'd recommend going with DS rippers over mucolids whenever you can. If you're going to make changes, I'd go with dropping 1 mawloc + 1 mucolid for 3 DS rippers + gargoyles.
cally missions are primary eternal war, secondary is maelstrom and tertiary First strike, line breaker and warlord.
In that case, I was probably looking at the older Caledonian missions packs.
With Maelstrom being part of the missions and no VP's as a tertiary objective (like it is for the actual ETC missions), then I'd go for the lictor + gargoyles.
Wilson wrote: I really cannot decide over lists for a GT next month.
I've submitted this but am contemplating swapping out one mawloc for either 20 gargoyles or 15 gargoyles + 1 lictor.
Thoughts?!
The only things that will start on the board is the 3 hive tyrants, the malanthrope and maybe the hive crone ( Depending on first turn and strength 10 presence)
If I include the gargoyles it would be a solid option to defer some pew pew from the tyrants but I would have to sacrafice a mawloc.
I would really appreciate some responses as I am completely torn! The list below has been tested a few times and has won but on reflection the Mawlocs are not all that successful...
HQ 2: Hive Tyrant : Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ; Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ;Wings; Electroshock grubs;
HQ 3: Hive Tyrant : Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ; Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms ;Wings; Electroshock grubs;
ELITE 1:1 Malanthrope
TROOP 1:1 Mucolid
TROOP 2:1 Mucolid
TROOP 3: 3 Ripper Swarms ;Deep strike
FAST ATTACK 1: Dimacheron
FAST ATTACK 2: Hive Crone
HEAVY SUPPORT 1: Mawloc
HEAVY SUPPORT 2: Mawloc
HEAVY SUPPORT 3: 1 Carnifex Brood; Twin-linked devourer with brain leech worms; Twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms
HEAVY SUPPORT*: Tyrannocyte; Deathspitter
HEAVY SUPPORT*: Tyrannocyte: Deathspitter
I'd go with the 20 gargoyles. The Caledonian missions do not have a Maelstrom element, which is what lictors are great for. Instead, they run Purge the Alien in most of the missions so it's better to go with fewer units. Either keep the mawloc or swap them out for the gargoyles.
Also, I'd recommend going with DS rippers over mucolids whenever you can. If you're going to make changes, I'd go with dropping 1 mawloc + 1 mucolid for 3 DS rippers + gargoyles.
cally missions are primary eternal war, secondary is maelstrom and tertiary First strike, line breaker and warlord.
I believe a lictor would be great but on it's own, it'd more than likely be useless and get picked off.
totally in favour of 20 gargoyles over the mawloc... I just cannot bring myself to commit and drop the twins...
Is 1 mawloc truly enough?
If it were me... I would lose the Dime...that keeps the slots the same. But... I don't much like the Dime, and I have had lot's of luck with twin Mawlocs.
I think one Mawloc without Lictors is fine; after that it gets tough not having them. It appears that they consider Leviathan to be a CAD, so no allying them with codex: Tyranids as a second CAD. But I bet you could ally with regular Nids or go vice versa and ally with Leviathan. I might try something like that so that you can still have obsec. And you would still be able to field 3 Flyrants. I think that the lack of obsec is still worth giving pause. If I was building a list and not allowed to do Leviathan plus Tyranid CAD, I would probably do something like:
Now here's the difference between the two, and this is why I recommend going with 2 separate squads of 1 as long as you have enough FOC slots left. 1 unit of 2 generates 2 warp charges. 2 units of 1 generates 4 warp charges. Also, 2 unit of 1 generates 1 additional psychic power. That will double your chances of getting Catalyst or another useful Tyranid psychic power.
I can't emphasise this enough. I love having multiple zoeys. More likely to roll catalyst, extra warp changes, more spread out synapse, better lines of sight/attacking lanes for the lance (because zoeys aren't very mobile). Plus, it can make the targeting calculus a little more difficult for your opponent - killing back-field synapse is a good tactic against 'nids (especially when you're also reducing the anti-tank with zoeys), so two solo units forces at LEAST two volleys to whipe them both out, often 3 or more with a few good 3++ rolls. Ultimately (assuming your opponent isn't firing AP3 or better) a zoey is only as tough as two spaceys, and I don't think of 4 spaceys as particularly difficult to kill.
The downsides as I see it are kill points and easy first blood for your opponent. But - from experience - if I don't manage to kill something first turn, I'm pretty much always failing to get first blood (either due to zoeys, biovores, or a focussed-down flyrant). I tend to operate on the assumption that my opponent can probably get first blood pretty easily.
Just realised though this list leaves me with 40 points spare I think!
However this was the list I was going to run but I'm not going to get it painted in time.
Flyrants
Flyrants
Flyrants
Malonthrope
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
Broodlord (warlord)
Formation
Manafactorum genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
Just realised though this list leaves me with 40 points spare I think!
However this was the list I was going to run but I'm not going to get it painted in time.
Flyrants
Flyrants
Flyrants
Malonthrope
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
Broodlord (warlord)
Formation
Manafactorum genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
First ones awesome ( see my list above) second one is even cooler but i doubt you'll get very far :(
To be fair Wilson, that genestealer list can take a lot of people by suprise, how many armies can deal with 14 threats anywhere between 1"- 18" away from them turn 1?
Eldercaveman wrote: To be fair Wilson, that genestealer list can take a lot of people by suprise, how many armies can deal with 14 threats anywhere between 1"- 18" away from them turn 1?
their just too squishy. Have you play tested this against things like adlance + *instert CAD*?
Eldercaveman wrote: To be fair Wilson, that genestealer list can take a lot of people by suprise, how many armies can deal with 14 threats anywhere between 1"- 18" away from them turn 1?
their just too squishy. Have you play tested this against things like adlance + *instert CAD*?
They are very squishy, but they are also over kill for everything. And you only get one - two turns to shoot them before they get in combat, and then you aren't shooing my Flyrants.
Eldercaveman wrote: To be fair Wilson, that genestealer list can take a lot of people by suprise, how many armies can deal with 14 threats anywhere between 1"- 18" away from them turn 1?
their just too squishy. Have you play tested this against things like adlance + *instert CAD*?
They are very squishy, but they are also over kill for everything. And you only get one - two turns to shoot them before they get in combat, and then you aren't shooing my Flyrants.
what day are you heading down/up? I'll give you fight if you want to test out that madness?
( I of course mean on the table top! we should share a beer or three as well)
Eldercaveman wrote: To be fair Wilson, that genestealer list can take a lot of people by suprise, how many armies can deal with 14 threats anywhere between 1"- 18" away from them turn 1?
their just too squishy. Have you play tested this against things like adlance + *instert CAD*?
They are very squishy, but they are also over kill for everything. And you only get one - two turns to shoot them before they get in combat, and then you aren't shooing my Flyrants.
what day are you heading down/up? I'll give you fight if you want to test out that madness?
( I of course mean on the table top! we should share a beer or three as well)
Going up on the Friday, like I say I doubt I'll get it painted so most likely I'll be running the first list, and then get that list ready for battlefield Birmingham.
Eldercaveman wrote: To be fair Wilson, that genestealer list can take a lot of people by suprise, how many armies can deal with 14 threats anywhere between 1"- 18" away from them turn 1?
their just too squishy. Have you play tested this against things like adlance + *instert CAD*?
They are very squishy, but they are also over kill for everything. And you only get one - two turns to shoot them before they get in combat, and then you aren't shooing my Flyrants.
what day are you heading down/up? I'll give you fight if you want to test out that madness?
( I of course mean on the table top! we should share a beer or three as well)
Going up on the Friday, like I say I doubt I'll get it painted so most likely I'll be running the first list, and then get that list ready for battlefield Birmingham.
fair enough man. Well, as we're running very similar lists I'll be very interested in seeing how you do.
Eldercaveman wrote: To be fair Wilson, that genestealer list can take a lot of people by suprise, how many armies can deal with 14 threats anywhere between 1"- 18" away from them turn 1?
their just too squishy. Have you play tested this against things like adlance + *instert CAD*?
They are very squishy, but they are also over kill for everything. And you only get one - two turns to shoot them before they get in combat, and then you aren't shooing my Flyrants.
what day are you heading down/up? I'll give you fight if you want to test out that madness?
( I of course mean on the table top! we should share a beer or three as well)
Going up on the Friday, like I say I doubt I'll get it painted so most likely I'll be running the first list, and then get that list ready for battlefield Birmingham.
fair enough man. Well, as we're running very similar lists I'll be very interested in seeing how you do.
Good luck bro!
Are you playing in the open on the Friday as well?
Eldercaveman wrote: To be fair Wilson, that genestealer list can take a lot of people by suprise, how many armies can deal with 14 threats anywhere between 1"- 18" away from them turn 1?
their just too squishy. Have you play tested this against things like adlance + *instert CAD*?
They are very squishy, but they are also over kill for everything. And you only get one - two turns to shoot them before they get in combat, and then you aren't shooing my Flyrants.
what day are you heading down/up? I'll give you fight if you want to test out that madness?
( I of course mean on the table top! we should share a beer or three as well)
Going up on the Friday, like I say I doubt I'll get it painted so most likely I'll be running the first list, and then get that list ready for battlefield Birmingham.
fair enough man. Well, as we're running very similar lists I'll be very interested in seeing how you do.
Good luck bro!
Are you playing in the open on the Friday as well?
doubt it, It's a long drive so we'll probably be too pooped to do anything other than get crunk.
Just realised though this list leaves me with 40 points spare I think!
However this was the list I was going to run but I'm not going to get it painted in time.
Spoiler:
Flyrants
Flyrants
Flyrants
Malonthrope
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
Broodlord (warlord)
Formation
Manafactorum genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
5 x genestealers
First list is solid.
The 2nd list has the potential to surprise a lot of people just like OrdoSean's #Lictorshame list did. It's actually quite scary potentially.
rigeld2 wrote: I'm starting a league in January - it starts at 750, then adds 250 points a week until 1500.
For 750 im thinking:
Flyrant with eGrubs x2
Mucolid x2
Venomthrope x2
Dakkafex
I just need to buy (and paint) 2 Venomthropes before my first game.
2 flyrants at 750? Ouch. That's going to suck for a lot of your opponents.
I can't help but feel that you are too thin with your scoring units. Personally, I'd swap out 1 venomthrope for 1 unit of deepstriking egrubs.
BTW, can you run Forgeworld units (like the malanthrope)? If so, then I'd recommend swapping out both venoms for 1 malan.
No Forgeworld or I'd run the Mope I already own instead of having to buy 2 Vopes :p
Deep Striking Rippers? Eh... I like em, but not sure I need them. I'm really torn. Any other votes?
rigeld2 wrote: I'm starting a league in January - it starts at 750, then adds 250 points a week until 1500.
For 750 im thinking:
Flyrant with eGrubs x2
Mucolid x2
Venomthrope x2
Dakkafex
I just need to buy (and paint) 2 Venomthropes before my first game.
2 flyrants at 750? Ouch. That's going to suck for a lot of your opponents.
I can't help but feel that you are too thin with your scoring units. Personally, I'd swap out 1 venomthrope for 1 unit of deepstriking egrubs.
BTW, can you run Forgeworld units (like the malanthrope)? If so, then I'd recommend swapping out both venoms for 1 malan.
No Forgeworld or I'd run the Mope I already own instead of having to buy 2 Vopes :p
Deep Striking Rippers? Eh... I like em, but not sure I need them. I'm really torn. Any other votes?
The other option I see is to swap out your dakkafex for a mawloc.
If you're planning to run any type of Maelstrom missions in you campaign, then mobility of ground units is crucial. Personally, I always go for mobility of ground units in my TAC list. That way, I wouldn't care if I was playing Eternal War or Maelstrom missions....they would be fine in either scenarios.
rigeld2 wrote: I'm starting a league in January - it starts at 750, then adds 250 points a week until 1500.
For 750 im thinking:
Flyrant with eGrubs x2
Mucolid x2
Venomthrope x2
Dakkafex
I just need to buy (and paint) 2 Venomthropes before my first game.
The other option I see is to swap out your dakkafex for a mawloc.
If you're planning to run any type of Maelstrom missions in you campaign, then mobility of ground units is crucial. Personally, I always go for mobility of ground units in my TAC list. That way, I wouldn't care if I was playing Eternal War or Maelstrom missions....they would be fine in either scenarios.
You've got to explain this to me. Replace a Dakkafex (Maelstorm all-stars) for a Mawloc (crazy random, limited usefulness) in a 750 list because of Maelstrom? What is your thought process there, because I'm not seeing it.
rigeld2 wrote: I'm starting a league in January - it starts at 750, then adds 250 points a week until 1500.
For 750 im thinking: Flyrant with eGrubs x2 Mucolid x2 Venomthrope x2 Dakkafex
I just need to buy (and paint) 2 Venomthropes before my first game.
The other option I see is to swap out your dakkafex for a mawloc.
If you're planning to run any type of Maelstrom missions in you campaign, then mobility of ground units is crucial. Personally, I always go for mobility of ground units in my TAC list. That way, I wouldn't care if I was playing Eternal War or Maelstrom missions....they would be fine in either scenarios.
You've got to explain this to me. Replace a Dakkafex (Maelstorm all-stars) for a Mawloc (crazy random, limited usefulness) in a 750 list because of Maelstrom? What is your thought process there, because I'm not seeing it.
The Mawloc can deepstrike, burrow, is more resistant, cheaper, and gives some ap2.
rigeld2 wrote: I'm starting a league in January - it starts at 750, then adds 250 points a week until 1500.
For 750 im thinking:
Flyrant with eGrubs x2
Mucolid x2
Venomthrope x2
Dakkafex
I just need to buy (and paint) 2 Venomthropes before my first game.
The other option I see is to swap out your dakkafex for a mawloc.
If you're planning to run any type of Maelstrom missions in you campaign, then mobility of ground units is crucial. Personally, I always go for mobility of ground units in my TAC list. That way, I wouldn't care if I was playing Eternal War or Maelstrom missions....they would be fine in either scenarios.
You've got to explain this to me. Replace a Dakkafex (Maelstorm all-stars) for a Mawloc (crazy random, limited usefulness) in a 750 list because of Maelstrom? What is your thought process there, because I'm not seeing it.
The dakkafex no doubt is good. However, without a tyrannocyte, his movement is limited and predictable. He can't reach the further objectives.
The good thing about the mawloc, besides his resiliency, is his ability to move anywhere on the table. And after that, he can still reposition himself anywhere else on the table. Plus, he can potentially kill stuff with his AP2 pie plates.
It's a tradeoff. More mobility for less firepower. To me, that's ok, because my opinion of 7th is that what wins you games isn't assault. It isn't shooting either. It's actually all about mobility and positioning.
How often do you guys play at 750? Are you really willing to risk 20% of your army on a Mawloc that has no bonuses to come in, and no Lictors to guide him? What about the games where he comes in on 2, scatters, mishaps and dies for 1st blood? You've only got 5 scoring units in your army, and now you've lost 1 and given your opponent a free point? Maybe at 1850 you can take that risk, because you've got other stuff in your army, even if the Mawloc fails to contribute or helps out your opponent, but at 750, you need everything to contribute and do so reliably. The winner of the game will have 1-3 units left while the loser has 0-1. So firepower is more important.
Also board control, not mobility wins your Maelstrom games. Dakkafex has that. Mawloc doesn't A Mawloc can be good in Maelstrom, but not until higher point levels, and even then he is mainly a specialty tool for very, very specific opposing lists like invisible cents, or Elite Infantry.
I think you are taking your approach to large point games and not thinking about how such an approach would work in a smaller point format. As points go up, Mawlocs become more useful, but in small points games their high level of specialization, and gigantic randomness become a much bigger problem..
tag8833 wrote: How often do you guys play at 750? Are you really willing to risk 20% of your army on a Mawloc that has no bonuses to come in, and no Lictors to guide him? What about the games where he comes in on 2, scatters, mishaps and dies for 1st blood? You've only got 5 scoring units in your army, and now you've lost 1 and given your opponent a free point? Maybe at 1850 you can take that risk, because you've got other stuff in your army, even if the Mawloc fails to contribute or helps out your opponent, but at 750, you need everything to contribute and do so reliably. The winner of the game will have 1-3 units left while the loser has 0-1. So firepower is more important.
Also board control, not mobility wins your Maelstrom games. Dakkafex has that. Mawloc doesn't A Mawloc can be good in Maelstrom, but not until higher point levels, and even then he is mainly a specialty tool for very, very specific opposing lists like invisible cents, or Elite Infantry.
I think you are taking your approach to large point games and not thinking about how such an approach would work in a smaller point format. As points go up, Mawlocs become more useful, but in small points games their high level of specialization, and gigantic randomness become a much bigger problem..
It's not that bad, tag. After all, your opponent has 2 friggin' flyrants to deal with at 750! LOL. Don't worry. Your mawloc should most likely survive at 750 the turn he comes in (barring a mishap catastrophe).
In any case, the point is moot as the OP already said that he prefers to run his dakkafexes. Dakkafex or mawloc, they are both fine IMO. My suggestion for the mawloc is more of a playstyle choice rather than the case of one being better than the other. Yeah, the mawloc might die while coming up. He might also take out an enemy unit on an objective as well. As for the dakkafex, he can potentially kill a transport with his shooting, but with only 4W, he is also more likely to die to enemy fire as well. There really isn't enough pluses on either unit to warrant a must-take in this situation. Both are good in their own rights. But in my experience, I tend to go for the more mobile units at least for my armies. The OP, on the other hand, expressed his preference for the dakkafexes and that is fine as well.
Yeah, I hate the look of the snake-nids (Mawloc, Trygon, Raveners) so no matter how good they perform I'll skip them.
I played Dakkafexes in 5th regardless of how good Trygons were.
We only play one game at each point level - it's a low attendance shop, but people like playing and I was dared to go balls-to-the-wall competitive. Otherwise I'd leave one Flyrant behind and the Vopes and run Stealers.
rigeld2 wrote: Yeah, I hate the look of the snake-nids (Mawloc, Trygon, Raveners) so no matter how good they perform I'll skip them.
I played Dakkafexes in 5th regardless of how good Trygons were.
We only play one game at each point level - it's a low attendance shop, but people like playing and I was dared to go balls-to-the-wall competitive. Otherwise I'd leave one Flyrant behind and the Vopes and run Stealers.
Keep us informed of how it goes. I always like to read how other people's games go.
So need a lil help. Trying to get settled on a list for LVO. I feel like I have 1,600 pts locked down. Its those last 200 pts or so.
So this is what I got:
CAD 2x Flyrant
2x Malathropes
2x Ripper Swarms(DS)
1x Gorgoyles(20)
1x Barbed Heirdule
Allies
1x Flyrant
1x Mucilod
I have only tried two things with those last 200 points. Dakkafex and Dima. Reasons why I dont like them.
Dakkafex:
To Slow!!! With only 6" move and 18" range I cant get him where he needs to be. Rarely can I get those side armour shots. Think only once or twice when the IK get up close.
Dima
To Slow!!! Does great if I play am army that wants to change me. Shield him with another unit than counter charge. But the games where he does nothing because he cant get into H2H are just way to numerious.
Problems I am running into.
1) Not enough Obsec troops.
2) Loosing Synapse in the back field.
Units I am looking at.
1) Mawloc, but with no Lictor to guide them are they worth it?
2) Other FMC, but they guys just seem so bad for there points. Thought about Skyblight but just cant see spending the points on the 3 FMC tax that comes with it.
3) More Gorgoyles and dropping Mucilod spores for a 3rd Deep striking Ripper Swarm.
Is there something else out there that I am missing? Open to possibly dropping the 2nd Malathrope. Thoughts please guys. Please keep in mind this is a tourney list for the LVO.
azazel70820 wrote: So need a lil help. Trying to get settled on a list for LVO. I feel like I have 1,600 pts locked down. Its those last 200 pts or so.
I have only tried two things with those last 200 points. Dakkafex and Dima. Reasons why I dont like them. Dakkafex: To Slow!!! With only 6" move and 18" range I cant get him where he needs to be. Rarely can I get those side armour shots. Think only once or twice when the IK get up close. Dima To Slow!!! Does great if I play am army that wants to change me. Shield him with another unit than counter charge. But the games where he does nothing because he cant get into H2H are just way to numerious.
Problems I am running into. 1) Not enough Obsec troops. 2) Loosing Synapse in the back field.
Units I am looking at. 1) Mawloc, but with no Lictor to guide them are they worth it? 2) Other FMC, but they guys just seem so bad for there points. Thought about Skyblight but just cant see spending the points on the 3 FMC tax that comes with it. 3) More Gorgoyles and dropping Mucilod spores for a 3rd Deep striking Ripper Swarm.
Is there something else out there that I am missing? Open to possibly dropping the 2nd Malathrope. Thoughts please guys. Please keep in mind this is a tourney list for the LVO.
Thanks in advance.
I would drop the 2nd Malanthrope for Tyrannocyte. Bring a dakkafex in with the Tyrannocyte. Then you've got a few points left that can turn your Mucolid into a scoring troop. Either Hormagants or Rippers. Or you could add a Zoey as a warp charge battery / backfield scoring unit. Alternatively you could run a Crone. They aren't bad for their points, and will really help you against Imperial Knights or other Mech lists. One last suggestion. An Aegis line with an Ammo dump lets your Barbed Heirodule reroll 1's to hit, and gives you 2+ cover wherever you want it without having to depend on terrain if you want to gunline it up. I find barbie is looking to assault against most lists, but it is an options I playtested for a while.
ETA. The advantage of the Tyrannocyte is that you can decide at gametime if you want it to deliver the Dakkafex or not. If you'r opponent is running an assaulty list, you can deploy the dakkafex on the table to help the Heirodule out, and instead drop the Tyrannocyte empty or with rippers or if you decide in favor of hormagants as a 3rd troop, they can go inside, arrive from deep strike and then run D6 +3" to steal a maelstrom objective.
necrotes wrote: Been working on a competitive drop pod style tyranid list and wanted to think of what all you think of it. I am using the leviathan detachment.
H.Q.
Hive Tyrant- Wings, E Grubs, 2 Devourers
Hive Tyrant- Wings, E Grubs, 2 Devourers
Hive Tyrant- Wings, E Grubs, 2 Devourers
Troops
Mucolid Spore
Mucolid Spore
Mucolid Spore
Elites
Malenthrope
Lictor
Lictor
Fast Attack
Harpy with Venom Cannon
Heavy Support
Carnifex with 2 devourers
Carnifex with 2 devourers
Toxicrene
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
A couple of questions, why a Harpy? And what is the fourth tyrannocyte for? If it does not have a function, you can spend the points elsewhere.
Sinful Hero wrote: My guess is for the Malanthrope. What does the Toxicrene do for you that a third Carnifex wouldn't?
I think he would be better off using the Malanthrope to keep his flyrants alive on turn 1, and dropping 1 Tyrannocyte to upgrade some spores to rippers or hormagants.
I'm guessing the Toxicrine is to deal with MC's like Wraith Knights. I think it is sub-optimal in that role, and I think another Dakkafex might be better.
Sinful Hero wrote: My guess is for the Malanthrope. What does the Toxicrene do for you that a third Carnifex wouldn't?
I think he would be better off using the Malanthrope to keep his flyrants alive on turn 1, and dropping 1 Tyrannocyte to upgrade some spores to rippers or hormagants.
I'm guessing the Toxicrine is to deal with MC's like Wraith Knights. I think it is sub-optimal in that role, and I think another Dakkafex might be better.
I can't remember, have the numbers been run on that: Toxicrene vs Wraithknight? It pretty much has to assault to hurt a Wraithknight. It just has a 12" large blast for range. Although with fantastic rolls it could possibly instagib it with the blast- not that it can be relied upon.
The fourth tyrannocyte is for the malenthrope when needed. I run the toxicrene because I have had great sucess with it as a distraction unit. Most of the opponents I face are suit spam tau, eldar, and Chaos multi-wound monsters. The toxicrene does well against them in many of my games.
Sinful Hero wrote: My guess is for the Malanthrope. What does the Toxicrene do for you that a third Carnifex wouldn't?
I think he would be better off using the Malanthrope to keep his flyrants alive on turn 1, and dropping 1 Tyrannocyte to upgrade some spores to rippers or hormagants.
I'm guessing the Toxicrine is to deal with MC's like Wraith Knights. I think it is sub-optimal in that role, and I think another Dakkafex might be better.
I can't remember, have the numbers been run on that: Toxicrene vs Wraithknight? It pretty much has to assault to hurt a Wraithknight. It just has a 12" large blast for range. Although with fantastic rolls it could possibly instagib it with the blast- not that it can be relied upon.
If it gets into assault it can indeed kill a Wraith Knight. It strikes 1st (I6), has 6 attacks, and ID on 6's. If it gets the charge, and can strike at initiative, it has a 58% chance to ID the Wraith Knight before it gets to swing, and statistically should kill it in the 2nd round of combat pretty easily.
The problem is, Wraith Knights are faster, can ID the Toxicrine in shooting, and the Toxicrine is pretty bad vs vehicles. It will only do 1.5 glances to an AV 10 rear vehicle per turn on the charge.
Also a correction, the shooting attack can't ID anything unless the toxicrine is part of the formation.
On the other hand the more I think about it, the more I think the Toxicrine might not be as bad in this list as I 1st thought. You've got the dakkafexes to deal with vehicles. I'm mainly concerned with the Toxicrine's lack of fleet, and its difficulty with Demon MC's like a GUO.
I really think this is a great list. It desperately needs to drop 1 Tyrannocyte for an Aegis with a comms relay so that the reserves come in, but if it does that, we are looking at a tyranid list that is going to utterly demolish people. I like it so much I'm going to play test it when I get time.
Here is the way I see it working best:
Spoiler:
Hive Tyrant- Wings, E Grubs, 2 Devourers
Hive Tyrant- Wings, E Grubs, 2 Devourers
Hive Tyrant- Wings, E Grubs, 2 Devourers
Troops
Mucolid Spore
Mucolid Spore
20 Hormagants (Toxin Sacs) <- this replaces the Toxicrine, and I think will be more reliable thanks to fleet and additional wounds. Better against Demon MC's.
Elites
Malenthrope
Lictor
Lictor
Fast Attack
Crone <- Replaces the harpy
Heavy Support
Carnifex with 2 devourers
Carnifex with 2 devourers
@tag8833
The Toxicrene comes standard with Hypertoxic, and it specifically mentions the Choking Cloud IDing on 6's.
@necrotes
If it works for you, don't change it. Everyone's experiences and metas(or what they face in a game) are different, and if you find a unit works, I see no point in taking it out.
azazel70820 wrote: So need a lil help. Trying to get settled on a list for LVO. I feel like I have 1,600 pts locked down. Its those last 200 pts or so.
So this is what I got:
CAD 2x Flyrant
2x Malathropes
2x Ripper Swarms(DS)
1x Gorgoyles(20)
1x Barbed Heirdule
Allies
1x Flyrant
1x Mucilod
I have only tried two things with those last 200 points. Dakkafex and Dima. Reasons why I dont like them.
Dakkafex:
To Slow!!! With only 6" move and 18" range I cant get him where he needs to be. Rarely can I get those side armour shots. Think only once or twice when the IK get up close.
Dima
To Slow!!! Does great if I play am army that wants to change me. Shield him with another unit than counter charge. But the games where he does nothing because he cant get into H2H are just way to numerious.
Problems I am running into.
1) Not enough Obsec troops.
2) Loosing Synapse in the back field.
Units I am looking at.
1) Mawloc, but with no Lictor to guide them are they worth it?
2) Other FMC, but they guys just seem so bad for there points. Thought about Skyblight but just cant see spending the points on the 3 FMC tax that comes with it.
3) More Gorgoyles and dropping Mucilod spores for a 3rd Deep striking Ripper Swarm.
Is there something else out there that I am missing? Open to possibly dropping the 2nd Malathrope. Thoughts please guys. Please keep in mind this is a tourney list for the LVO.
Thanks in advance.
2 malanthropes is just overkill. You really only need 1, especially since your list doesn't rely on your ground units too much (except Barbie, who doesn't need a Synapse baby-sitter anyways). I definitely recommend dropping 1 malanthrope.
Go for rippers over mucolid if you've got the points. Swap out that 1 unit of mucolid for deepstriking rippers.
For your last unit, I'd recommend something in a tyrannocyte to give you some mobility. Either the dakkafex or dimachaeron in a tyrannocyte will make a world of difference (especially for the dimachaeron). Of if you run the mawloc, you can also fit in a Void Shield Generator with 3 Void Shields. Any of those options is a good choice.
So dropping a malanthrope gives you 285-pts to play with. To recap, I think your options are:
1. Dimachaeron in a spore - 275-pts.
2. Dakkafex in a spore. Also swap out mucolid for 3 DS rippers - 255-pts. 30-pts leftover for 2 more mucolids or bigger guns on the tyrannocyte?
3. Mawloc and 3 Void Shields VSG. Swap out mucolid for 3 DS rippers - 270-pts. You can actually get1 more mucolid.
necrotes wrote: Been working on a competitive drop pod style tyranid list and wanted to think of what all you think of it. I am using the leviathan detachment.
H.Q.
Hive Tyrant- Wings, E Grubs, 2 Devourers
Hive Tyrant- Wings, E Grubs, 2 Devourers
Hive Tyrant- Wings, E Grubs, 2 Devourers
Troops
Mucolid Spore
Mucolid Spore
Mucolid Spore
Elites
Malenthrope
Lictor
Lictor
Fast Attack
Harpy with Venom Cannon
Heavy Support
Carnifex with 2 devourers
Carnifex with 2 devourers
Toxicrene
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
I think it's more important to start your malanthrope on the table to help protect your flyrants. The 4th tyrannocyte is superfluous. Drop it for some troops that can actually score. Basically, malanthrope will be the backfield support unit that can also grab your backfield objective.
Also, you might want to consider bringing in a means to control your reserves (i.e. comms relay). Malanthrope behind an Aegis or in a Bastion with Comms might be worth considering, though you'd probably have to give up the harpy or at least a lictor to do so.
Am I missing something with my Rippers. They keep giving me trouble through IB. I deep strike them in. Most of the time they dont have Synapse. Failing LD test most of the time on 5s. Then then cant move on 1-3. Am I missing something?
azazel70820 wrote: Am I missing something with my Rippers. They keep giving me trouble through IB. I deep strike them in. Most of the time they dont have Synapse. Failing LD test most of the time on 5s. Then then cant move on 1-3. Am I missing something?
Personally I deep strike them on an objective and very rarely have to move them.You scatter 2d6 inches off if you do, then place a base directly towards the objective, then run them. Usually you'll end up within 3" with even above average rolling, and you'll be able to move them over 70% of the time anyways if you're outside of synapse, making it easy to move them back on worst case scenario. Basically, just deepstrike them exactly in the spot you want them to be in, and don't expect them to move anywhere after. Plus it's usually safer to leave them there in cover.
azazel70820 wrote: Am I missing something with my Rippers. They keep giving me trouble through IB. I deep strike them in. Most of the time they dont have Synapse. Failing LD test most of the time on 5s. Then then cant move on 1-3. Am I missing something?
I just sit them on an Objective. Being naturally Fearless means the enemy has to shoot them all if they want an Objective (and being so low, you can avoid Line of Sight).
IB means nothing, a result of 1-3 only results in 3 hits max
azazel70820 wrote: Am I missing something with my Rippers. They keep giving me trouble through IB. I deep strike them in. Most of the time they dont have Synapse. Failing LD test most of the time on 5s. Then then cant move on 1-3. Am I missing something?
Yep, they don't move much. Getting to the board is biggest challenge with Rippers. I swear they mishap and die more than any other model. After that, just let them sit on an objective eating themselves until the game is over.
I'm sort of surprised that a bunch of tournament lists are popping up without any lictors to guide 2-3 Mawlocs in. I know there will be ignored cover at the tournament level (potentially a lot of it) but without the Lictors, Mawlocs will whiff 2/3 of the time. Not the kind of stat you want at the tournament level. Has anyone playtested this kind of list? I've been having some good success with Lictors guiding Mawlocs in, and they are extremely durable vs anything that's not ignores cover (go to ground for the win!)
luke1705 wrote: I'm sort of surprised that a bunch of tournament lists are popping up without any lictors to guide 2-3 Mawlocs in. I know there will be ignored cover at the tournament level (potentially a lot of it) but without the Lictors, Mawlocs will whiff 2/3 of the time. Not the kind of stat you want at the tournament level. Has anyone playtested this kind of list? I've been having some good success with Lictors guiding Mawlocs in, and they are extremely durable vs anything that's not ignores cover (go to ground for the win!)
Don't take my list as any sort of guide to competitive lists, I'm just being lazy.
Quite frankly I'm not sold on Mawlocs/Lictors at all. I just don't see the points being worth it for what is an unreliable unit. In a GT, you're getting 2 blast templates in a game for 140 points, very rarely 3 templates. Then you pay more for a fragile unit to guide it? Sorry, I just don't see it. I do understand the appeal of Lictors in a Maelstrom mission where grabbing objectives mid game matters, but Mawlocs are terrible anti vehicle, and there's no guarentee you can pop the vehicles needed turn 1, when EG may be out of range. In a GT setting I can only hustings bringing a unit that will help me in every competitive matchup, and that means Dakkafex and TFex in pods just stand out more to me. Likewise, a Crone will help every turn its in the board as it can threaten both infantry and vehicles.
As a disclaimer I must say that all the GTs around gere are Eternal War style, and consequently so are all of my pickup games, but I still think that the best Nid lists will not need Mawlocs.
luke1705 wrote: I'm sort of surprised that a bunch of tournament lists are popping up without any lictors to guide 2-3 Mawlocs in. I know there will be ignored cover at the tournament level (potentially a lot of it) but without the Lictors, Mawlocs will whiff 2/3 of the time. Not the kind of stat you want at the tournament level. Has anyone playtested this kind of list? I've been having some good success with Lictors guiding Mawlocs in, and they are extremely durable vs anything that's not ignores cover (go to ground for the win!)
I used to run a list with 3 Mawlocs and no lictors. It was before I had access to Malanthropes. It looked something like this:
I took it to a little RTT once. It was at the very beginning of 7th. If I recall one Mawloc mishapped and died in all 3 of the games, though in one game that didn't happen until the 2nd drop.
I didn't do very well at the tourney because they were running Maelstrom missions, and Between my Flyrants, Crones, and Mawlocs, I had next to no board control once the Tervigon died, and MSU mech (Space Wolves, Iron Hands) beat me twice. I did beat Tau gunline though. Actually I might have squeaked out a win in the Iron Hands game, I remember scoring a huge turn 5, but time getting called before I could table them, and as I said it was quite a while ago.
My opinion is that Lictors need to be spammed to be useful as a Mawloc Teleport Homer. 2-3 Lictors die too easily, and are going to have trouble getting into position and staying there. Go to Ground is a useful trick, but I find it hard to keep my Lictors more thant 12" away from Flyrants.
Fair point tag. You're definitely right that you need to bring a number of them because one can be removed. Simple as that. But taking 2-3 and making one poor little wave serpent try to deal with them all....that's what I'm talking about
I've been toying around with 6 of them using Leviathan + Tyranid CAD, although who knows how long that will hold up? I also am only using 2 Mawlocs so far. Not the least of which is because I only own two; however I think 3 might be overkill in a number of situations. Then again, you're pretty reliably going to have a 1-3 on the mishap table at some point and have nasty things happen to your Mawloc.
The other thing that I'm experimenting with is something of a synapse light list (and using units that don't need synapse as much to go along with it). I still have 2 Flyrants, but maneuvering my lictors between them is much easier than with more. 2 Dimachaerons in a pod don't care much about synapse, nor do the lictors or rippers. And (correct me if I'm wrong) the Mawloc can burrow before IB since they both happen simultaneously. Even if not, she should rarely actually appear on the board if she is doing her job right
I think the big reason so many people are taking Mawlocs (Including me) Is they are only 140 points. They have the potential to devastate deathstars and gunlines, and even if they scatter off a six wound monstrous creature in the backfield is an issue for many armies regardless of it middling stats. It can also reposition itself with the abiity to burrow and hit & run.
One Mawloc hitting centurion star can almost completely neuter the unit and almost end the game. It just offers so much potential upside.
luke1705 wrote: And (correct me if I'm wrong) the Mawloc can burrow before IB since they both happen simultaneously. Even if not, she should rarely actually appear on the board if she is doing her job right
Nope sorry. IB happens before movement phase. Mawloc Burrow happens during movement phase.
Re: Lictors as Teleport homers.
The Mawloc must arrive within 6" of the Lictor and the lictor must have been on the board the turn before. So the Lictor has to be within 6" of a target for an entire opponent turn. Most opponents will either kill the Lictor, or simply move a few inches away. It isn't hard to defeat it. I've had good success bringing a Mawloc in on a close combat that involves a lictor, but it is pretty hard to keep a lictor alive for 2 rounds in a close combat with anything that they need help with. It just seems like success is too dependent on the opponent playing along. The exception is when you spam lictors and are able to cover a good portion of the board with the 6" radiuses of all of the Lictors.
I know most people don't rate warriors but I really like the look of them and want to paint some nice big models after doing alot of Orks and Space marines, that plus Deathstorm let me grab 12 warriors and 4 Fexes very cheap!
So the questions -
Are Crushing claw Fexes worth it? I kinda like the idea of a tank busting machine that will run across the board and HOW smash into tanks! The model could also double as Old One Eye if I ever choose to play him.
Are Fexes with Stranglethorn cannons and 1 set of devourers a viable build? This seems like quite a nice combo, with no actual experience of playing.
I quite like the idea of spamming pie plates and the nids seem capable of throwing quite a few around, do many people build this way? I was thinking the squads of warriors with BS, maybe 2 Fexs with ST & Devs plus an Exocrine and maybe a Harpy with ST and Cluster Spines.
This would be 7 large blasts and may just about fit under 1000 pts depending on HQ.
Is there any viable way to build and use a Prime? I have read all the reviews and the consences seems to be 'No' but I wanted to ask if anyone finds them useful? I can make one with the bits I have, I maybe will just make one anyway so the squad looks cool in my display cabinet even if there is no way to make him work! If there is any uses what load out? I had thought L/whip & Sword plus DS but he is almost as expensive as a Tyrant at that point!
Tremble wrote: 3 Warriors - 1 BS 1RC - 105
3 Warriors - 1 BS 1RC - 105
4 Warriors - 1 VC 3 D/Spitters 3RC - 190
I know most people don't rate warriors but I really like the look of them and want to paint some nice big models after doing alot of Orks and Space marines, that plus Deathstorm let me grab 12 warriors and 4 Fexes very cheap!
If you like them, you can build them that way, but consider this alternate way to group them with roughly the same number of warriors (1 less).
3 Warriors - 1 BS - 100
7 Warriors - 7 D/Spitters 7RC - 280
Then take the 20 points you freed up and give the Flyrant Hive Commander so that they can outflank.
BTW, I magnetize all of my warriors.
Tremble wrote: Are Crushing claw Fexes worth it? I kinda like the idea of a tank busting machine that will run across the board and HOW smash into tanks! The model could also double as Old One Eye if I ever choose to play him.
Short Answer: No.
Long Answer. No, Adrenal Glands are a massively superior way to get to S10 on a Carnifex. Carnifexes do more damage usually with HOW anyways, and so getting to combat is so much more important than what you do once you get there.
If you want to run Crushing Claws on a Carnifex, you might consider a "Stone-Crusher Carnifex". It is a special type that gets AP:2 on HOW, and has significantly better survivability, because of a special rule that lowers the strength of all ranged weapons targeting it.
I also magnetize all of my Carnifexes.
Tremble wrote: Are Fexes with Stranglethorn cannons and 1 set of devourers a viable build? This seems like quite a nice combo, with no actual experience of playing.
Yes, that build works ok. You are taking a big reduction in turn 2+ damage for an increase in Turn 1 Damage. It depends on how alpha-strikey you feel, and how long your carnifexes last. Carnifexes are pretty fragile, and don't tend to last very long. I actually think that a novice player might enjoy this build more than a pure dakkafex provided you are playing Eternal War or BAO missions. If you are playing Maelstrom, Dakka all-the-way.
Tremble wrote: I quite like the idea of spamming pie plates and the nids seem capable of throwing quite a few around, do many people build this way? I was thinking the squads of warriors with BS, maybe 2 Fexs with ST & Devs plus an Exocrine and maybe a Harpy with ST and Cluster Spines.
This would be 7 large blasts and may just about fit under 1000 pts depending on HQ.
No, spamming pie plates is generally not a great way to go. The problem is that it works very well against Hoards, but right now the main rules strongly discourage hoards in favor of Mech, and min squads. So unless you plan to play mainly non-mech orks, or IG blob most of the time, too many pie plates is going to be a serious handicap.
Tremble wrote: Is there any viable way to build and use a Prime? I have read all the reviews and the consences seems to be 'No' but I wanted to ask if anyone finds them useful? I can make one with the bits I have, I maybe will just make one anyway so the squad looks cool in my display cabinet even if there is no way to make him work! If there is any uses what load out? I had thought L/whip & Sword plus DS but he is almost as expensive as a Tyrant at that point!
The Tyranid prime costs roughly twice what he should based on points. So he isn't going to be in optimized lists. I'm about to commit some heresy here, and say there are indeed ways to run one in a list that can win games decisively.
Just to head off any responses like "a Flyrant is the only unit in the Tyranid codex worth taking, and every other unit is an affront to its greatness". I consider certain builds of Tyranid prime to be quasi viable, I am not arguing that it is better than a dakkaflyrant, and I admit that any list involving a Tyranid prime is going to have serious mismatches (mainly anything with a 2+ armor save).
Here is how I usually equip a Tyranid Prime:
Tyranid Prime (Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Bonesword + Lashwhip, Flesh Hooks, Scything Talons) -> You can swap the Scything Talons for Rending Claws, but I find that any situation where he would need them, they aren't going to be quite enough.
So this guy is a CC beatstick that can mess things up. The next problem becomes "How do I get him there?"
Option #1: The Sling-shot
This involves fast units (Like Gargoyles, Shrikes, or Raveners). You join the prime to a Malanthrope, Zoenthrope, Venomthrope, or backfield warriors for 1st turn and move him forward, and advance the speedy stuff towards the opponent. On turn 2, you position the speedy stuff to assault, but congaline back a single model to be in range of the Prime, so that he can join the unit at the end of movement on turn 2 before assault. Then it is just waiting a turn or two for him to pile in and make himself useful.
Option #2: Outflank.
This involves some troop unit. It is usually one of the following.
1) Warriors -> The prime boosts them a bit, so running them with RC's, AG's, and Deathspitters, and they are a pretty solid unit. The downside is that the deathspitters can shoot them out of charge range, and so you might consider something else.
2) Termagants (Base) -> These are nothing but a prime delivery system. You might consider dropping Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, and the BS + LW for a Reaper of Obliterax in this scenario, because it isn't worth it to give the Termagants fleet. But it is a way to put the 30 termagant tervigon tax to use.
3) Termagants (mixed) -> 1/2 Devourers, 1/2 Fleshborers or Spinefist. These guys are a viable unit on their own, but have the same concern of shooting themselves out of charge range.
4) Hormagants -> These are the best prime delivery system (because of fleet). Unfortunately, they contribute nothing on the turn they arrive.
Option #3: Tyrannocyte.
He gets dropped from the sky. This involves a body guard. Here are a few suggestions.
1) 17 Hormagants -> much like outflanking, fleet makes them a superior delivery system, but they can't contribute on the turn they arrive.
2) 17 Termagants (10 Devourers, 7 Fleshborers) -> If this unit can arrive behind an AV10 vehicle it can pop it. But the Devourers pay less dividends after the turn they arrive.
3) 3 Tyrant Guard (1-2 Crushing Claws, 3 Adrenal Glands, Possibly Toxin Sacs) -> This is a great Prime bodyguard, and because the prime isn't an MC, he can ride in the Tyrannocyte with them. The Crushing claws + Rending claws provide a solution to units with a 2+ armor save, and vehicles. Because the Tyrant guard and fine by themselves, sometimes the prime may split off to solo a unit. The downside of this build is cost. It is a lot of points for a mini-deathstar that can't handle better deathstars.
Option #4: Hoards.
The goal here is to have at least 4 units containing 20+ models. Sometimes it is best to run "Endless Swarm", and/or give the Prime a "Norn Crown" for this tactic. The idea is, the prime hops between the various units as they get whittled down or reach charge range. This was a perfectly viable strategy in 6th against non-tau, non-eldar armies. However, 7th has shifted the balance so much in favor of mech, that this strategy is only viable in a very limited number of circumstances.
I'm new to 'nids myself and likewise love the look of warriors. but I've come upon the idea of deploying them as a back up to my gaunts to keep em in synapse. using them as sort of... Leuitenants on the battlefeild. thus allowing me to use my tyrants as needed without worrying about taking em out of synapse range of my gaunts
BrianDavion wrote: I'm new to 'nids myself and likewise love the look of warriors. but I've come upon the idea of deploying them as a back up to my gaunts to keep em in synapse. using them as sort of... Leuitenants on the battlefeild. thus allowing me to use my tyrants as needed without worrying about taking em out of synapse range of my gaunts
That works, and works fairly well. Shrikes, Zoeys and especially Malanthropes all perform that task slightly better, but that is certainly one of the best ways to use warriors.
If a squad of gants could take a single warrior as a Sargent character, it would dramatically improve the Tyranid codex and make both gants and Warriors more popular.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm new to 'nids myself and likewise love the look of warriors. but I've come upon the idea of deploying them as a back up to my gaunts to keep em in synapse. using them as sort of... Leuitenants on the battlefeild. thus allowing me to use my tyrants as needed without worrying about taking em out of synapse range of my gaunts
That works, and works fairly well. Shrikes, Zoeys and especially Malanthropes all perform that task slightly better, but that is certainly one of the best ways to use warriors.
If a squad of gants could take a single warrior as a Sargent character, it would dramatically improve the Tyranid codex and make both gants and Warriors more popular.
true but all of those units you listed use other slots that might, in theory, have more important uses troops slots however are something you're apt to have in abundance, (especially if you're using the hive fleet detachment)
as for Warriors as sergents. yeah that'd be nice, but I suppose it'd remove any real "cost" of synapse. hence why you have warriors seperate.
That said I suppose you COULD acheive a similer effect with Primes and multiple attachment shinnagens... or just play unbound,
List utilizes Leviathan detachment to get the 4 HQ's but I make my WL regular cad so I can access the brbWL traits from "strategic"
I've played well over 50 games with this list and pre Leviathan I used a self-ally list that was similar (minus SL and plus a Dima basically) for another 50+ games (I play... A LOT).
My aim is nothing short of winning TSHIFT and LVO. We will see if I'm insane or not my win percentage vs the best of the best on the west coast is very high. I had some learning curve with this list. Not a lot of bodies so mistakes proved fatal as it does have extremely potent offense and defense but limited scoring so if I was wasteful or careless I can limit myself pretty quickly.
In my games I've found the "fighter ace" upgrade to on average range from "good" to "broken." Rolling a 5/6 in a vanguard deployment mission is absolutely insane.. Doubling that with your WL having the upgrade makes him insanely more survivable too. The 3/4 is a no brainer too and if course the 1/2 is least desirable but I think of it as a 66% chance at a game-changer upgrade. Bit roulette'ish but the odds are in your favor.
Swarmlord is the "huh?" Element to my list but in practice I can tell you I have no regrets and cannot wait to show off my old best friend making a return. PE on the barb 90% of the time is insane. I feel like i am on average hitting 7-8 times and then wounding 7-8 times. Additionally the 3 powers are really clutch. SL is a body guard to my barb and those 3 powers are usually something like paroxysm, catalyst or some offensive powers. Really only onslaught and the horror tend to be less helpful (the horror has some mega clutch moments). WS9 and then cat on the SL who already has 4++ makes for a fantastic assassin who CAN tank the typical beat sticks like wraith knights and dread knights and then reliably kill them (usually swinging first). Drawbacks are of course he is slow and expensive but with him, the barb and my Malanthrope as central control I don't NEED him to be fast.
Sharing the list so you can a see it. TSHIFT is coming up so we will see if I'm on the mark. Excited!
List utilizes Leviathan detachment to get the 4 HQ's but I make my WL regular cad so I can access the brbWL traits from "strategic"
I've played well over 50 games with this list and pre Leviathan I used a self-ally list that was similar (minus SL and plus a Dima basically) for another 50+ games (I play... A LOT).
My aim is nothing short of winning TSHIFT and LVO. We will see if I'm insane or not my win percentage vs the best of the best on the west coast is very high. I had some learning curve with this list. Not a lot of bodies so mistakes proved fatal as it does have extremely potent offense and defense but limited scoring so if I was wasteful or careless I can limit myself pretty quickly.
In my games I've found the "fighter ace" upgrade to on average range from "good" to "broken." Rolling a 5/6 in a vanguard deployment mission is absolutely insane.. Doubling that with your WL having the upgrade makes him insanely more survivable too. The 3/4 is a no brainer too and if course the 1/2 is least desirable but I think of it as a 66% chance at a game-changer upgrade. Bit roulette'ish but the odds are in your favor.
Swarmlord is the "huh?" Element to my list but in practice I can tell you I have no regrets and cannot wait to show off my old best friend making a return. PE on the barb 90% of the time is insane. I feel like i am on average hitting 7-8 times and then wounding 7-8 times. Additionally the 3 powers are really clutch. SL is a body guard to my barb and those 3 powers are usually something like paroxysm, catalyst or some offensive powers. Really only onslaught and the horror tend to be less helpful (the horror has some mega clutch moments). WS9 and then cat on the SL who already has 4++ makes for a fantastic assassin who CAN tank the typical beat sticks like wraith knights and dread knights and then reliably kill them (usually swinging first). Drawbacks are of course he is slow and expensive but with him, the barb and my Malanthrope as central control I don't NEED him to be fast.
Sharing the list so you can a see it. TSHIFT is coming up so we will see if I'm on the mark. Excited!
Well, Geoff, then you're going to be up for some stiff competition at TSHFT. Your nids are going to have to go through what may possibly be the last hurrah of my Necrons in order to win it all (before they get updated, that is).
BTW, this is going to be my list (using self-allies):
As for the LVO, I don't know yet what I'm going to bring. It'll either be Necrons or Tyranids. I've got a number of people telling me that I should bring my Pentyrant Tyranid list there, even though I've said that I wouldn't run it in competitive play. Ah, the pressure. Oh well, I guess we'd just have to wait and see.
Tremble wrote: Hi all, I am new to Tyranids and looking for advice.
I don't play much mostly just paint but still like to build half way reasonable armies.
I have gathered up the start of a Tyranid force and am just wanting some opinions before I start building everything.
Plan A -1000 Pts.
Flyrant with Electroshock grubs & 2 x Twin Devs - 240
I know most people don't rate warriors but I really like the look of them and want to paint some nice big models after doing alot of Orks and Space marines, that plus Deathstorm let me grab 12 warriors and 4 Fexes very cheap!
So the questions -
Are Crushing claw Fexes worth it? I kinda like the idea of a tank busting machine that will run across the board and HOW smash into tanks! The model could also double as Old One Eye if I ever choose to play him.
Are Fexes with Stranglethorn cannons and 1 set of devourers a viable build? This seems like quite a nice combo, with no actual experience of playing.
I quite like the idea of spamming pie plates and the nids seem capable of throwing quite a few around, do many people build this way? I was thinking the squads of warriors with BS, maybe 2 Fexs with ST & Devs plus an Exocrine and maybe a Harpy with ST and Cluster Spines.
This would be 7 large blasts and may just about fit under 1000 pts depending on HQ.
Is there any viable way to build and use a Prime? I have read all the reviews and the consences seems to be 'No' but I wanted to ask if anyone finds them useful? I can make one with the bits I have, I maybe will just make one anyway so the squad looks cool in my display cabinet even if there is no way to make him work! If there is any uses what load out? I had thought L/whip & Sword plus DS but he is almost as expensive as a Tyrant at that point!
Cheers for any pointers,
Tremble
If you're going to run Tyranid Warriors, drop the deathspitters and run them with rending claws instead. I recommend at least 2 out of the 3 with RC's (or all of them if you've got the points). RC's just gives them so much more flexibility, allowing them to deal with armor and high Toughness units.
BTW, I like Tag's suggestion of running 3 and 7 warriors instead. Running 1 as a support unit (the unit of 3) and the other as your main offensive unit/bullet sponge (unit of 7) then puts 4 dangerous threats at your opponent's doorsteps (flyrant, warriors and 2 carnifexes).
Also, ALWAYS run your carnifexes as shooty dakkafexes (with 2 TL-Brainleech devourers). Dakkafexes are so much better. Drop 1 warrior if you have to (for 1 unit of 3 and 1 unit of 6). Shooting is the way to go in this edition because the carnifex, even though it's got high strength, isn't actually all that great as an assault unit.
As to your questions:
1. I prefer Adrenal Glands over Crushing Claws for your cc-fexes. Speed IMO is more important than the crushing claws, especially since AG makes your carnifex S10 on the charge anyways.
2. Stranglethorn + devourers is ok but it isn't optimal. Now if you're taking it more for the looks or the theme (blast-heavy), then that's fine. However, if you want to run an optimized list for competitive play, then 2x TL-D's is your best option. If you want to run pie-plate-heavy bugs, it's more for theme than it is for competitive reasons. For competitive play, volume-of-fire, which is what devourers have, is the way to go.
3. He's not that good (ok, ok, he sucks), especially when compared to the almighty flyrant, but if you really want to try to shoehorn him into your list, then put him with a unit in a tyrannocyte. Either with a unit of Tyranid Warriors or possibly with some hormagants to act as his meat shield and drop them down in a spore. His main problem was that he had no fast and reliable delivery system before. Well, things have changed since the tyrannocyte was re-introduced into the Tyranid army a couple of months ago.
Looks like I will be magnetizing my Fexes then, not built any yet, are they easy to magnetise? Are the arms heavy for small magnets? Think I have some 2mm and 3mm magnets kicking about somewhere.
I really like the idea of using Hive commander to outflank the warrior squad, if I go down this route do you think I still need the Venom? He was in the list to protect the main warrior squad as it advanced, but if they outflank is there any need for him?
What about dropping the Gargs down to terms, pays for Hive commander, then dropping the venom to pay for upgrading the CC fex to a dakka fex plus adding an additional warrior to the larger squad?
This would take the outflanking squad to 5 with 1 VC, 1 stock and 3 with death spitters and RC. This also gives me 11 warriors on the field.
Is the Venom cannon worth it? I kinda like the idea of making one with it just to give me more options in the future - if I ever make LAN etc - but I have enough warriors that if it sucks in an assault type unit I can drop it.
Dropping the Venomthrope kinda helps me financially as it is the only thing in the proposed list I don't have, I really like new models and know I will add some later but it is an expensive box when I will only use one initially.
On the flip side if I really need him I proxy/get a box.
1) With no Bastion or VSG or even a Bunker or Aegis, you are depending alot on terrain to keep your heavies alive and shield you from alpha strikes. My meta definitely doesn't include enough terrain to rely on that. Are you sure that LVO will have sufficient terrain to keep the list viable if you don't have 1st turn? With Barbie, most people will seize on you on a 5+, and with other bonuses to sieze it seems like your Malantrhope, or Warlord might be an easy source of 1st blood to an army capable of alpha striking.
2) Could you outline some scenarios where Barbie needs a body guard like that? Assaulty deathstars like TWC or certain Demon builds I guess. How often does Swarmlord actually contribute more than as an Ammo Dump?
3) Fighter ace as you say can be downright broken. Are you sure LVO will allow it? They seem to be pursuing a much more open "anything goes" approach then they did at BAO, but I would assume such an approach would have limits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tremble wrote: Looks like I will be magnetizing my Fexes then, not built any yet, are they easy to magnetise? Are the arms heavy for small magnets? Think I have some 2mm and 3mm magnets kicking about somewhere.
3 mm is a little small because some of the wargear puts alot of torque on the connection point. I suggest 5 mm.
Tremble wrote: I really like the idea of using Hive commander to outflank the warrior squad, if I go down this route do you think I still need the Venom? He was in the list to protect the main warrior squad as it advanced, but if they outflank is there any need for him?
Definitely. Once you've got a few games under your belt you will see that the primary methods for surviving with tyranids are venoms and Swooping. "Do I really need the Venom" is like saying "Do you think its important for me to roll saves?" It isn't required to field a legal army, but it would sure help if you want the army to be good.
Tremble wrote: Is the Venom cannon worth it? I kinda like the idea of making one with it just to give me more options in the future - if I ever make LAN etc - but I have enough warriors that if it sucks in an assault type unit I can drop it.
No. Remember you warriors all have to shoot at the same target. Usually a cheaper deathspitter will do just as much damage.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm new to 'nids myself and likewise love the look of warriors. but I've come upon the idea of deploying them as a back up to my gaunts to keep em in synapse. using them as sort of... Leuitenants on the battlefeild. thus allowing me to use my tyrants as needed without worrying about taking em out of synapse range of my gaunts
That works, and works fairly well. Shrikes, Zoeys and especially Malanthropes all perform that task slightly better, but that is certainly one of the best ways to use warriors.
If a squad of gants could take a single warrior as a Sargent character, it would dramatically improve the Tyranid codex and make both gants and Warriors more popular. [/quote
Word, I use Warriors as minimal " command squads" with pretty good success, I build them as x3, with a Strangle Cannon. So they can snipe with a pinning attack, hopefully from cover. Building one with a Venom, for future use sounds like a fine plan.
The outflanking Warrior Brood ( plus Prime) has no need for a Cannon, but if you have 5 points left over, well...why not? Rending Claws are a very efficient. CC choice and it is low cost. If you want to go crazy then look at adding Adrenal glands. Dang expensive though.
Tag8833: I play 99% of my games with the frontline guys so I know the terrain and rules very well. Rules can change but for now the fighter ace is allowed and if that changes oh well... It isn't the crux if my army.
Defending alpha strike is where my Malanthrope comes in. I've yet to play at a tourney with horrible terrain.. Mostly because I only go to upper tier tourneys. I don't need 15 pieces of ruins but a few is all I need.. After that it is toe in wherever and I don't run up the board I tend to take my time and make them come to the barb while my Flyrants reach out and soften them up.
The SL is so much more than just PE. Barbs without a scary cc body guard are very vulnerable IMO. Dread nights, wraith knights, thunder lords, daemons... Man'd much more can get in there and mess him up so I've always had a dima and now moved to the SL. My SL has yet to let me down.. Against mech heavy lists he is LESS cool but still functions nicely.
Turns out I didn't have to worry about choosing between a Tervigon and Tyrannofex, I got another one for Christmas. I've come up with a basic 1000 point list to help focus my painting.
Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2 TL Devourers and Electroshock Grubs
30 Termagants
Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs
3 Warriors with a Barbed Strangler
Carnifex with 2 TL Devourers
Tyrannofex with Electroshock Grubs
Hopefully it'll be a pretty base to expanding from.
I've got a few ideas on how to expand it with stuff I own.
A) I bought the Deathstorm box and would like to try out the formation some time.
B) I've got 60 Hormagaunts and some Genestealers I'd like to use at some point. I don't own any Venomthropes yet which seem like something I'd want to go with them and I think after doing the Termagants I won't be in a hurry to paint them.
C) I've got a bunch of cool monstrous creature to try out. This brings me to a new problem.
How do you deal with having more cool heavy choices than slots? I have 5 Carnifexes, Tyrannofex, Mawloc/Trygon, and Exocrine to fit in.
Btw to your point on terrain I've seen some bad tourneys in terms of terrain I just have yet to see that at major GT's. Last year I went to adepticon, tshift, Lvo, bao, brawl in the fall, nova, nova invitational, tshift invitational and a few smaller ones.. No issues. I ran a VSG at Bao though.. It was nice. You will get the odd table with little to no ruins and maybe just "area" terrain (name changed in 7th to something I can't remember, copses?) so I will only get 3+ vs the alpha unless I roll a 2 on strategic. In that case I deploy as defensively as I can. As a nid player I consider myself a god at finding the LoS blocking angles and getting as much cover as I can otherwise we die!
Crimson Heretic wrote: Hey all, sort new to nids and still fairly fresh to the game in general..looking for some list ideas based off of what i have..i play in a 100% relaxed none agressive area with close friends..if you guy/gals could give me pointers on building an alright list, i would appreciate it...heres what i got..
its a slow process to gather the models that are decent or popular, because we lack a reliable GW store in our area
thank you
So 1200-1500? That's a tough one. You CANNOT build a TAC army with this list because your army just doesn't have the tools to do so. But I will offer whatever advice I can anyways. First off, does you or your opponents mind if you proxy? For example, would you or your opponents mind if you ran your hive tyrant on foot as a flyrant with 2x Brainleech Devourers? Or how about your carnifex with 2x Brainleech Devourers? What about if you run your termagants as 10 fleshborers (or spine-fists) and 10 devourers?
I think there is a decent formation you can use, called the Children of Crypus. It involves your genestealers + Broodlord. I will base your list off of that formation:
I'm not sure exactly how many points this is (don't have my codex with me), but I think it is somewhere around 1300-pts.
Tactics for his army.
1. Genestealers should be infiltrating. Try to trail them back to be in range of your venomthrope. This way, they will be getting 2+ cover with any type of cover.
2. Use Hive Commander to outflank one of your units, whether it be 1 unit of devilgants or the dakkafex.
3. Use your gargoyles as a screening unit for the rest of the army. Make sure to trail at least 1 model back to within venomthrope shrouding range.
4. When advancing with your horde, always have at least a couple of units from each horde trailing back to your venomthrope to give them cover.
5. Rippers should be deepstriking in onto objectives.
6. The army on the whole should be advancing. The only unit(s) that won't is a unit that you leave on your home objective.
thank you for the reply, now how exactly do you implement the formation into a list? are their requirments at all? Also the gargoyles blinding venom, its worded kind of oddly in the codex, if you exhcange your attacks to blind an enemy unit, do you still need to roll to hit and to wound or no? Also can you break down a brood of two zoan's psyker phase..say they want to manifest warp blast..do you roll once to see if you can generate the warp blast...then resolve two attacks for the price of one?(psyker brood)
what would you all recommend for the next phase(next models to look into getting?) i was thinking a few nutsacks(the drop pod) and to curve out the rest of the carnifex brood?
I want to run the Sky Tyrant Swarm Dataslate/Formation and I need help deciding how to kit out the unit. I do want to run unit 1 and unit 2, with 30 bodies per unit. So that would make the whole unit 60 gargoyles and the lone Flyrant. That is a lot of wounds and you can make the Flyrant/Skyrant your warlord, thus making it very difficult for the enemy to score Slay The Warlord.
Okay, so do I keep the Gargoyles cheap and no options? Or do I give them Adrenal glands and or Toxin sacs? I figure I could multi-assault vehicles with AV10 and glance them to death in combat. With poisoned attacks, I think a lot of things would fall ( monstrous creatures mostly ).
And then the Flyrant/Skyrant. Do I give him the typical loadout, or try making him a melee monster? With enough Bio-morphs and Bio-artefacts, I can get his strength up to 9 on the charge. Strong enough to threaten high AV vehicles and really high toughness monstrous creatures.
durecellrabbit wrote: Turns out I didn't have to worry about choosing between a Tervigon and Tyrannofex, I got another one for Christmas. I've come up with a basic 1000 point list to help focus my painting.
Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2 TL Devourers and Electroshock Grubs
30 Termagants
Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs
3 Warriors with a Barbed Strangler
Carnifex with 2 TL Devourers
Tyrannofex with Electroshock Grubs
Hopefully it'll be a pretty base to expanding from.
I've got a few ideas on how to expand it with stuff I own.
A) I bought the Deathstorm box and would like to try out the formation some time.
B) I've got 60 Hormagaunts and some Genestealers I'd like to use at some point. I don't own any Venomthropes yet which seem like something I'd want to go with them and I think after doing the Termagants I won't be in a hurry to paint them.
C) I've got a bunch of cool monstrous creature to try out. This brings me to a new problem.
How do you deal with having more cool heavy choices than slots? I have 5 Carnifexes, Tyrannofex, Mawloc/Trygon, and Exocrine to fit in.
Well there are a couple of simple ways, one Formations. They are desperate from your CAD, so that can help. Also you can run multiple CADs, this one tends to ruffle some feathers, so you might not go that way.
But adding a Living Artillery Node (LAN) adds an Exocrene, and a Biovore Brood, plus a Warrior Brood, leaving all your heavy slots open.
iNcontroL wrote: Btw to your point on terrain I've seen some bad tourneys in terms of terrain I just have yet to see that at major GT's. Last year I went to adepticon, tshift, Lvo, bao, brawl in the fall, nova, nova invitational, tshift invitational and a few smaller ones.. No issues. I ran a VSG at Bao though.. It was nice. You will get the odd table with little to no ruins and maybe just "area" terrain (name changed in 7th to something I can't remember, copses?) so I will only get 3+ vs the alpha unless I roll a 2 on strategic. In that case I deploy as defensively as I can. As a nid player I consider myself a god at finding the LoS blocking angles and getting as much cover as I can otherwise we die!
Plenty of lists have the firepower to take out a Flyrant for 1st blood even if it is drawing a 2+ cover save. I.E. Buffmander + Missilesides, Grav Cents in drop pods. Sterngaurd in drop pods, Tau with marker lights. Any list with more than 3 wave serpents, etc.
Are you willing to lose 1st blood and potentially warlord if you face those lists, or how do you plan on handling it?
I ask because my LVO list contains a VSG just to deny 1st blood which it does very, very well, and 1st blood is so important in BAO missions. I TO'd a BAORTT, and only 4 games out of 27 went to the player who failed to get 1st blood. Winning 1st blood and the primary makes it so that losing the secondary isn't a major concern, and a list like yours is going to lose the secondary pretty often I imagine.
I want to run the Sky Tyrant Swarm Dataslate/Formation and I need help deciding how to kit out the unit. I do want to run unit 1 and unit 2, with 30 bodies per unit. So that would make the whole unit 60 gargoyles and the lone Flyrant. That is a lot of wounds and you can make the Flyrant/Skyrant your warlord, thus making it very difficult for the enemy to score Slay The Warlord.
Okay, so do I keep the Gargoyles cheap and no options? Or do I give them Adrenal glands and or Toxin sacs? I figure I could multi-assault vehicles with AV10 and glance them to death in combat. With poisoned attacks, I think a lot of things would fall ( monstrous creatures mostly ).
And then the Flyrant/Skyrant. Do I give him the typical loadout, or try making him a melee monster? With enough Bio-morphs and Bio-artefacts, I can get his strength up to 9 on the charge. Strong enough to threaten high AV vehicles and really high toughness monstrous creatures.
Do not upgrade the gargoyles if you are running that many of them. Upgrades would be horribly expensive. Instead spend those points on something that can deal with whatever the Skytyrant can't which will be most of the opponent's army. If you multi-assault you lose furious charge, so AG won't help you with vehicles.
For the Flyrant, the best bet is BS+LW, Scything Talons, Electroshock Grubs, and Old Adversary.
I wouldn't run a unit containing 60 gargoyles. It will have a roughly equal foot print to the green tide (Gargs are on bigger bases than Orks), but won't have near the power in assault because the green tide at least has Nobz w/ Power Claws. If you've got the Gargoyles, give it a shot in one game, and then come back here and tell me I'm wrong.
Yes plenty of lists can get through a 2+ cover save. So you can reserve things and put the barb closer to entice them away from it or you can deploy away from buff mander and friends who are only range 36
If they get ignores cover on their cents yeah you're losing something if they go first unless you deny it (assuming it's the power). I have yet to feel like I need a VSG or sky shield to win.. Sure 1's happen and bad mu's but most of the time I'm fine. Gotta plan for the meta which right now is wave serpents, knights, daemon spawn and tau gun lines with suits.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also my list rarely loses secondary. I only have 2 easily killed units and I DS on objectives with obsec. I usually try for going second as well. My barb blob moves up the field sitting on objectives making it hard for them to get em out of fear of the SL and barb.
@Crimson Heretic
The Tyrannocytes and the Carnifexes would be a good addition, but you might also look into getting a second Flyrant as soon as you can as well. A pair will rule the roost.
Looks like I will be magnetizing my Fexes then, not built any yet, are they easy to magnetise? Are the arms heavy for small magnets? Think I have some 2mm and 3mm magnets kicking about somewhere.
I really like the idea of using Hive commander to outflank the warrior squad, if I go down this route do you think I still need the Venom? He was in the list to protect the main warrior squad as it advanced, but if they outflank is there any need for him?
What about dropping the Gargs down to terms, pays for Hive commander, then dropping the venom to pay for upgrading the CC fex to a dakka fex plus adding an additional warrior to the larger squad?
This would take the outflanking squad to 5 with 1 VC, 1 stock and 3 with death spitters and RC. This also gives me 11 warriors on the field.
Is the Venom cannon worth it? I kinda like the idea of making one with it just to give me more options in the future - if I ever make LAN etc - but I have enough warriors that if it sucks in an assault type unit I can drop it.
Dropping the Venomthrope kinda helps me financially as it is the only thing in the proposed list I don't have, I really like new models and know I will add some later but it is an expensive box when I will only use one initially.
On the flip side if I really need him I proxy/get a box.
Thanks again for the help!
Tremble.
The venomthrope is a necessity for the army to win games. You can still win without him, but your games will just be much tougher without him. He is just such a great force-multiplier to make the entire army better.
BTW, outflanking shouldn't be a must-use strategy. Rather, look at it as more flexibility for your army. There are times when it makes sense to outflank. Then there are times where it's better just to leave the unit on the table instead.
This is my take on the venom cannon. I'd consider it for the smaller warrior unit just sitting on an objective, but not for the bigger "hammer" unit of warriors. That is because shooting discourages moving. With your larger warrior unit, you want to advance them as fast as you can (at least get them all into devourer range). More often than not, I'd prefer to run my large unit of warriors rather than firing just 1 gun. Get them all into devourer range and start shooting. Thus, the VC is ok, but it is far from being a necessity on a unit of warriors.
I prefer gargs over termies. Just drop 1 warrior and now you've got your 2x TL-Devourers for your 2nd carnifex.
durecellrabbit wrote: Turns out I didn't have to worry about choosing between a Tervigon and Tyrannofex, I got another one for Christmas. I've come up with a basic 1000 point list to help focus my painting.
Hive Tyrant with Wings, 2 TL Devourers and Electroshock Grubs
30 Termagants
Tervigon with Electroshock Grubs
3 Warriors with a Barbed Strangler
Carnifex with 2 TL Devourers
Tyrannofex with Electroshock Grubs
Hopefully it'll be a pretty base to expanding from.
I've got a few ideas on how to expand it with stuff I own.
A) I bought the Deathstorm box and would like to try out the formation some time.
B) I've got 60 Hormagaunts and some Genestealers I'd like to use at some point. I don't own any Venomthropes yet which seem like something I'd want to go with them and I think after doing the Termagants I won't be in a hurry to paint them.
C) I've got a bunch of cool monstrous creature to try out. This brings me to a new problem.
How do you deal with having more cool heavy choices than slots? I have 5 Carnifexes, Tyrannofex, Mawloc/Trygon, and Exocrine to fit in.
You can always run a formation like the LAN. You've already got the warriors and exocrine. Now all you need to do is add biovores and now you've got 3 free Heavy Support slots.
Just make sure to add a venomthrope of malanthrope to your army first.
what would you all recommend for the next phase(next models to look into getting?) i was thinking a few nutsacks(the drop pod) and to curve out the rest of the carnifex brood?
I'd go with these units and in this order:
1. A 2nd dakka flyrant.
2. Tyrannocyte for your carnifex
From there, it really is up to you what you want to run. Some suggestions:
1. Add an exocrine and biovores and now you can run the Living Artillery Formation.
I want to run the Sky Tyrant Swarm Dataslate/Formation and I need help deciding how to kit out the unit. I do want to run unit 1 and unit 2, with 30 bodies per unit. So that would make the whole unit 60 gargoyles and the lone Flyrant. That is a lot of wounds and you can make the Flyrant/Skyrant your warlord, thus making it very difficult for the enemy to score Slay The Warlord.
Okay, so do I keep the Gargoyles cheap and no options? Or do I give them Adrenal glands and or Toxin sacs? I figure I could multi-assault vehicles with AV10 and glance them to death in combat. With poisoned attacks, I think a lot of things would fall ( monstrous creatures mostly ).
And then the Flyrant/Skyrant. Do I give him the typical loadout, or try making him a melee monster? With enough Bio-morphs and Bio-artefacts, I can get his strength up to 9 on the charge. Strong enough to threaten high AV vehicles and really high toughness monstrous creatures.
60 gargoyles is overkill. That's 360-pts of meat shields! I think 40-50 is good enough in most cases (I personally run 40 in my Skytyrant formation). Keep them cheap with NO upgrades. If you're looking to multi-charge, then the bonuses from Adrenal Glands do not count anyways.
You opponent can still kill your Warlord Skytyrant by issuing a challenge. Certain beatstick characters can still kill you Skytyrant in challenges.
For my flyrant, I kit him out to be super-effective in combat. That includes the Reaper of Obliterax and Toxin Sacs. I also like to give my Skytyrant 1 set of TL-Devourers for a little added flexiblity, but that is more of my preference than anything else.
Do not upgrade the gargoyles if you are running that many of them. Upgrades would be horribly expensive. Instead spend those points on something that can deal with whatever the Skytyrant can't which will be most of the opponent's army. If you multi-assault you lose furious charge, so AG won't help you with vehicles.
For the Flyrant, the best bet is BS+LW, Scything Talons, Electroshock Grubs, and Old Adversary.
I wouldn't run a unit containing 60 gargoyles. It will have a roughly equal foot print to the green tide (Gargs are on bigger bases than Orks), but won't have near the power in assault because the green tide at least has Nobz w/ Power Claws. If you've got the Gargoyles, give it a shot in one game, and then come back here and tell me I'm wrong.
I want to run the Sky Tyrant Swarm Dataslate/Formation and I need help deciding how to kit out the unit. I do want to run unit 1 and unit 2, with 30 bodies per unit. So that would make the whole unit 60 gargoyles and the lone Flyrant. That is a lot of wounds and you can make the Flyrant/Skyrant your warlord, thus making it very difficult for the enemy to score Slay The Warlord.
Okay, so do I keep the Gargoyles cheap and no options? Or do I give them Adrenal glands and or Toxin sacs? I figure I could multi-assault vehicles with AV10 and glance them to death in combat. With poisoned attacks, I think a lot of things would fall ( monstrous creatures mostly ).
And then the Flyrant/Skyrant. Do I give him the typical loadout, or try making him a melee monster? With enough Bio-morphs and Bio-artefacts, I can get his strength up to 9 on the charge. Strong enough to threaten high AV vehicles and really high toughness monstrous creatures.
60 gargoyles is overkill. That's 360-pts of meat shields! I think 40-50 is good enough in most cases (I personally run 40 in my Skytyrant formation). Keep them cheap with NO upgrades. If you're looking to multi-charge, then the bonuses from Adrenal Glands do not count anyways.
You opponent can still kill your Warlord Skytyrant by issuing a challenge. Certain beatstick characters can still kill you Skytyrant in challenges.
For my flyrant, I kit him out to be super-effective in combat. That includes the Reaper of Obliterax and Toxin Sacs. I also like to give my Skytyrant 1 set of TL-Devourers for a little added flexiblity, but that is more of my preference than anything else.
I will flex my list idea, the advice makes a lot of sense. Okay right away I have another idea: Skytyrant Swarm and Skyblight Swarm. I have on hand, 60 actual gargoyle models, and 3 harpy/crone models, and 2 flyrants. So I know I can make at least 3 broods of gargoyles with OS, and have enough left over to make the the skytyrant swarm. I guess what I should be communicating and asking is this:
I want to create a visually striking Tyranid army that is a bit different than typical builds in my area ( lots of ground based units ). I want my whole army to have wings besides one Venomthrope in the list to lend shrouding. So I am pretty much committed to running these formations/dataslates. How can I maximize the list to make it as competitive as can be ( I know it's not top tier, but in a local meta, it could hold it's own on a frequent basis ), without deviating too much from the theme? The list with no options for the gargoyles runs below 1400 points. I am open to adding units to the list that don't exactly have wings, to shore up the weaknesses inherent with what I have so far. So basically I would have 600 points, give or take to compliment the skytrant and skyblight swarms. Big thanks for all the help thus far.
pinecone77 wrote: Well there are a couple of simple ways, one Formations. They are desperate from your CAD, so that can help. Also you can run multiple CADs, this one tends to ruffle some feathers, so you might not go that way.
But adding a Living Artillery Node (LAN) adds an Exocrene, and a Biovore Brood, plus a Warrior Brood, leaving all your heavy slots open.
jy2 wrote: You can always run a formation like the LAN. You've already got the warriors and exocrine. Now all you need to do is add biovores and now you've got 3 free Heavy Support slots.
Just make sure to add a venomthrope of malanthrope to your army first.
Thanks, that sounds fun. Will get the Venomthrope box first.
jy2 wrote: For my flyrant, I kit him out to be super-effective in combat. That includes the Reaper of Obliterax and Toxin Sacs. I also like to give my Skytyrant 1 set of TL-Devourers for a little added flexiblity, but that is more of my preference than anything else.
What do Toxin Sacs do for you if you already have Shred for RoO? It actually would make you worse against high toughness MC's like Wraith Knights, because 6's are ID.
jy2 wrote: For my flyrant, I kit him out to be super-effective in combat. That includes the Reaper of Obliterax and Toxin Sacs. I also like to give my Skytyrant 1 set of TL-Devourers for a little added flexiblity, but that is more of my preference than anything else.
What do Toxin Sacs do for you if you already have Shred for RoO? It actually would make you worse against high toughness MC's like Wraith Knights, because 6's are ID.
Could be for Iron Arm GUO mabye? They're T10 I do believe
jy2 wrote: For my flyrant, I kit him out to be super-effective in combat. That includes the Reaper of Obliterax and Toxin Sacs. I also like to give my Skytyrant 1 set of TL-Devourers for a little added flexiblity, but that is more of my preference than anything else.
What do Toxin Sacs do for you if you already have Shred for RoO? It actually would make you worse against high toughness MC's like Wraith Knights, because 6's are ID.
Could be for Iron Arm GUO mabye? They're T10 I do believe
S7 can still hurt T10. You would be better off against them with only RoO without Toxin Sacs. It would only be if they had endurance as well to get eternal warrior that it would make sense to include toxin sacs, and I feel like you are going to see more Wraith Knights, Wraith Lords, and Great Unclean one's without Endurance than you are going to see GUO's with Endurance.
jy2 wrote: For my flyrant, I kit him out to be super-effective in combat. That includes the Reaper of Obliterax and Toxin Sacs. I also like to give my Skytyrant 1 set of TL-Devourers for a little added flexiblity, but that is more of my preference than anything else.
What do Toxin Sacs do for you if you already have Shred for RoO? It actually would make you worse against high toughness MC's like Wraith Knights, because 6's are ID.
Without TS, you will average 1 Instant Death wound, which is = 6W for wraithknights, compared to .83 ID wounds for with TS. The difference is small, but you are right. Performance against high tougness units like wraithknights, no Toxin Sacs perform slightly better.
Now, that I have some time (at least until my next battle report), I am going to try to do 1 review a day.
Tyrannocyte: (by jy2)
The Tyrannocyte is currently the only transport option for Tyranids (not including Tyranid Gargantuan Creatures, or TGC's). While by itself, it isn't all that great. However, tactically, it gives Tyranids a large amount of tactical flexibility that a Tyranid army just wouldn't have otherwise. Just like Space Marine drop pods, it allows a Tyranid army to get specific units exactly where they need to go and fast. It makes the unit much more survivable by reducing the number of turns the opponent has to shoot at the unit. It also allows the Tyranid army to play a certain style - Maximum Threat Overload, or MTO - that just may be one of their most successful strategies.
So why should Tyrannocytes be included in a Tyranid army?
1. The Tyrannocyte is a very good delivery system to get the units that you want to where you want it and quickly. Now why is this good? Because it minimizes the amount of return fire that the unit needs to take before engaging the enemy. Against shooty armies like Tau, Eldar and Astra Militarum, it gives Tyranids are better chance to hit their lines without dying.
2. The Tyrannocyte helps to make a playstyle - MTO Tyranids - even better. When you hit your opponent with 2 or 3 units, that he can still handle. But when you hit your opponent with 6 or 7 units all at once - for example, 2 flyrants, 2 dimachaerons in tyrannocytes, 1 dakkafex in a tyrannocyte and 2 mawlocs all on Turn 2 - that is something that many armies just cannot handle. Basically, it helps to overload your opponent with more threats than he can handle.
3. The Tyrannocyte gives the Tyranid army much greater flexibility in terms of how one wants to play the army. Against a shooty army, put your units in tyrannocyte spores and overload the enemy. Against my aggressive armies, deploy your units on the ground and drop the tyrannocytes onto distant objectives instead.
4. Resiliency. As a Tyranid monstrous creature (TMC) with T5 and 6 Wounds, it is actually quite durable against anything that is not Strength 10 in nature. Drop it onto an objective (and preferably in ruins) and most non-ObSec (Objective Secured), non-elite infantry units will have problems taking it down. It is also resilient because it is a very low threat priority target. Most armies will ignore it due to the much greater threat of other Tyranid units (including the unit that just disembarked from it). Thus, in most cases, it can "avoid" enemy firepower and just stay on an objective, at least until the other Tyranid "threats" have been neutralized.
5. It can move! Yes, that is an improvement over the previous generation of Tyranid drop pods, which were immobile. Now, the tyrannocyte can actually go to claim/contest an objective or to act as a screening unit.
6. It cannot mishap if it lands on top of another unit. That is another improvement over its previous incarnation. Now, you can deepstrike very aggressively with it.
7. Firepower. With 15 S5 shots or 5 blasts/large blasts, it's actually got some respectable firepower.
While the Tyrannocyte opens up a lot of tactical flexibility for the army, the model itself has a lot of drawbacks.
1. It cannot assault.
2. While it is a low-priority threat, Toughness 5 means that it can easily be insta-killed by any army with S10 offense.
3. Instinctive fire means that you cannot control who you shoot at. This can cause some potential problems as you may be firing at a unit you cannot hurt (i.e. deathspitters into a dreadnought) or you could potentially hurt your own units (i.e. barbed stranglers scattering onto your own gribblies).
4. For what is mainly a delivery mechanism, the Tyrannocyte is actually quite expensive. While its previous incarnation, the mycetic spore, did not have as many features as the tyrannocyte, the mycetic spore was also only half its cost. Thus, the mycetic spore allowed you to drop even more units in a Tyranid MTO list. With the current cost of the tyrannocyte, it is not feasible to run more than 2 or 3 of these units. Thus, with the increased cost, you can't fit as many spore pods into your army as you once could (and still maintain a balanced Tyranid army).
5. While you can take an unlimited number of tyrannocyte spore pods, the fact that it is a Heavy Support selection means that it is a liability in Big Guns Never Tire missions (where the opponent gets bonuses for killing Heavy Support options). It is also a First Blood liability, especially against armies with S10 offense or force weaponry.
Individually, the tyrannocyte is not a very impressive unit in and of itself. However, in terms of overall army strategy and synergy, the tyrannocyte opens up a world of possibilities in terms of army flexibility and tactics. It allows the Tyranid army to do what it normally can't do in a more traditional Tyranid ground list. It also makes a lot of the Tyranid units better. Finally, it addresses one of the biggest weaknesses in a Tyranid ground army and that is its lack of mobility. In comparison, its individual drawbacks are a very small price to pay indeed for the tactical flexibility that it provides to the entire army. It is a unit that is definitely highly recommended for many Tyranid armies.
jy2 wrote: 5. While you can take an unlimited number of tyrannocyte spore pods, the fact that it is a Heavy Support selection means that it is a liability in Big Guns Never Tire missions (where the opponent gets bonuses for killing Heavy Support options). It is also a First Blood liability, especially against armies with S10 offense or force weaponry.
The Tyrannocyte rules explicitly say "A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart." Are you arguing that it still awards a bonus kill point as heavy support even though it doesn't use a slot? Is there any other example of this?
Also re: First blood. A Tyrannocyte can't come in on turn 1, so in order for the opponent to use it to get first blood, you would have to fail to kill a unit on both your 1st and 2nd turns, and they would have had to fail to kill anything on their 1st turn. While this is possible, you've probably got bigger problems at that point. The most likely scenario where a tyrannocyte gives 1st blood is that is mishaps off the board, but that is a risk you take if you want to be really aggressive with it, and it is such a fringe case that it is barely worth mentioning,
jy2 wrote: 5. While you can take an unlimited number of tyrannocyte spore pods, the fact that it is a Heavy Support selection means that it is a liability in Big Guns Never Tire missions (where the opponent gets bonuses for killing Heavy Support options). It is also a First Blood liability, especially against armies with S10 offense or force weaponry.
The Tyrannocyte rules explicitly say "A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart." Are you arguing that it still awards a bonus kill point as heavy support even though it doesn't use a slot? Is there any other example of this?
Yes. Any Heavy Support Dedicated Transport is the same.
jy2 wrote: 5. While you can take an unlimited number of tyrannocyte spore pods, the fact that it is a Heavy Support selection means that it is a liability in Big Guns Never Tire missions (where the opponent gets bonuses for killing Heavy Support options). It is also a First Blood liability, especially against armies with S10 offense or force weaponry.
The Tyrannocyte rules explicitly say "A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart." Are you arguing that it still awards a bonus kill point as heavy support even though it doesn't use a slot? Is there any other example of this?
Unless the unit explicitly tells you that it doesn't award Victory Points (i.e. spore mines), units that don't take up FOC slots still do award VP's. They can also claim/contest objectives. Examples include Honour Guards, Command Squads, Techmarines, Priests, Primaris Psykers, eldar warlock council, Necron Royal Court and many others. Those units do not take up any FOC slot (though there are requirements for running them) but are still worth VP's and can give up First Blood as well as claim Linebreaker.
tag8833 wrote: Also re: First blood. A Tyrannocyte can't come in on turn 1, so in order for the opponent to use it to get first blood, you would have to fail to kill a unit on both your 1st and 2nd turns, and they would have had to fail to kill anything on their 1st turn. While this is possible, you've probably got bigger problems at that point. The most likely scenario where a tyrannocyte gives 1st blood is that is mishaps off the board, but that is a risk you take if you want to be really aggressive with it, and it is such a fringe case that it is barely worth mentioning,
Take, for example, a Tyranid Airforce. Most of the units will take off into the air on Turn 1 (while troops stay in reserves) so it isn't very easy to get First Blood from that type of army, especially if the opponent's army doesn't have a lot of shooting.
Another example is a null-deployment or reserves-based Tyranid army, where the only thing that starts on the table are 2 flyrants who will take off into the air while the rest of the army starts off in reserves (except for the malanthrope in the bastion with the comms relay). Not easy to get First Blood off of this type of army as well, depending on what the opponent runs.
jy2 wrote: 5. While you can take an unlimited number of tyrannocyte spore pods, the fact that it is a Heavy Support selection means that it is a liability in Big Guns Never Tire missions (where the opponent gets bonuses for killing Heavy Support options). It is also a First Blood liability, especially against armies with S10 offense or force weaponry.
The Tyrannocyte rules explicitly say "A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart." Are you arguing that it still awards a bonus kill point as heavy support even though it doesn't use a slot? Is there any other example of this?
Unless the unit explicitly tells you that it doesn't award Victory Points (i.e. spore mines), units that don't take up FOC slots still do award VP's. They can also claim/contest objectives. Examples include Honour Guards, Command Squads, Techmarines, Priests, Primaris Psykers, eldar warlock council, Necron Royal Court and many others. Those units do not take up any FOC slot (though there are requirements for running them) but are still worth VP's and can give up First Blood as well as claim Linebreaker.
But none of those units award bonus points for their FOC slot as far as I know. I interpret the rule that it doesn't take up a FOC slot to mean that it also wouldn't award bonus points for any FOC slot.
jy2 wrote: 5. While you can take an unlimited number of tyrannocyte spore pods, the fact that it is a Heavy Support selection means that it is a liability in Big Guns Never Tire missions (where the opponent gets bonuses for killing Heavy Support options). It is also a First Blood liability, especially against armies with S10 offense or force weaponry.
The Tyrannocyte rules explicitly say "A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart." Are you arguing that it still awards a bonus kill point as heavy support even though it doesn't use a slot? Is there any other example of this?
Unless the unit explicitly tells you that it doesn't award Victory Points (i.e. spore mines), units that don't take up FOC slots still do award VP's. They can also claim/contest objectives. Examples include Honour Guards, Command Squads, Techmarines, Priests, Primaris Psykers, eldar warlock council, Necron Royal Court and many others. Those units do not take up any FOC slot (though there are requirements for running them) but are still worth VP's and can give up First Blood as well as claim Linebreaker.
But none of those units award bonus points for their FOC slot as far as I know. I interpret the rule that it doesn't take up a FOC slot to mean that it also wouldn't award bonus points for any FOC slot.
It's explicitly a Heavy Support choice that doesn't take a slot.
The rule gives extra points when a Heavy Support choice is killed.
Kill a Tyrannocyte, was a Heavy Support choice killed?
jy2 wrote: 5. While you can take an unlimited number of tyrannocyte spore pods, the fact that it is a Heavy Support selection means that it is a liability in Big Guns Never Tire missions (where the opponent gets bonuses for killing Heavy Support options). It is also a First Blood liability, especially against armies with S10 offense or force weaponry.
The Tyrannocyte rules explicitly say "A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart." Are you arguing that it still awards a bonus kill point as heavy support even though it doesn't use a slot? Is there any other example of this?
Unless the unit explicitly tells you that it doesn't award Victory Points (i.e. spore mines), units that don't take up FOC slots still do award VP's. They can also claim/contest objectives. Examples include Honour Guards, Command Squads, Techmarines, Priests, Primaris Psykers, eldar warlock council, Necron Royal Court and many others. Those units do not take up any FOC slot (though there are requirements for running them) but are still worth VP's and can give up First Blood as well as claim Linebreaker.
But none of those units award bonus points for their FOC slot as far as I know. I interpret the rule that it doesn't take up a FOC slot to mean that it also wouldn't award bonus points for any FOC slot.
Because none of those units are specifically listed as Heavy Support, FA etc.
It's a Heavy Support choice that you can take an unlimited amount of as dedicated transports. I believe Space Wolf, BA drops pods and Ork Truks are FA and give up bonus VP's in the Scouring.
Please show me the rule that says if something has no limit to how many times it can be taken overwrites it giving up bonus VPs.
Zande4 wrote: It's a Heavy Support choice that you can take an unlimited amount of as dedicated trasports. I believe Space Wolf, BA drops pods and Ork Truks are FA and give up bonus VP's in the Scouring.
Please show me the rule that says if something has no limit to how many times it can be taken overwrites it giving up bonus VPs.
The Tyrannocyte isn't a dedicated transport though. Though it certainly gives up VPs.
"Transport Spore: A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organization Chart."
It goes on saying "It can carry a single unit" and shows rules for that.
It doesnt say it has to be dedicated nor does it have to carry something. It says it doesnt take up a slot. If the Baal of Leviathan book is different let me know.
"Transport Spore: A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organization Chart."
It goes on saying "It can carry a single unit" and shows rules for that.
It doesnt say it has to be dedicated nor does it have to carry something. It says it doesnt take up a slot. If the Baal of Leviathan book is different let me know.
Both the White Dwarf and Shield of Baal display the Heavy Support icon on the page with the Tyrannocytes info, they both also say that it is a Heavy Support choice that does not use up a FOC slot.
"Transport Spore: A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organization Chart."
It goes on saying "It can carry a single unit" and shows rules for that.
It doesnt say it has to be dedicated nor does it have to carry something. It says it doesnt take up a slot. If the Baal of Leviathan book is different let me know.
Both the White Dwarf and Shield of Baal display the Heavy Support icon on the page with the Tyrannocytes info, they both also say that it is a Heavy Support choice that does not use up a FOC slot.
But Im saying even if its a heavy support it doesnt say you need to take it as a transport to get it as an Un used slot, it doesnt take a slot up no matter what.
You can take 10 of them empty if you really wanted too.
"Transport Spore: A Tyrannocyte does not use up a slot on the Force Organization Chart."
It goes on saying "It can carry a single unit" and shows rules for that.
It doesnt say it has to be dedicated nor does it have to carry something. It says it doesnt take up a slot. If the Baal of Leviathan book is different let me know.
Both the White Dwarf and Shield of Baal display the Heavy Support icon on the page with the Tyrannocytes info, they both also say that it is a Heavy Support choice that does not use up a FOC slot.
But Im saying even if its a heavy support it doesnt say you need to take it as a transport to get it as an Un used slot, it doesnt take a slot up no matter what.
You can take 10 of them empty if you really wanted too.
Amishprn86 wrote: It doesnt say it has to be dedicated nor does it have to carry something. It says it doesnt take up a slot. If the Baal of Leviathan book is different let me know.
No one's arguing that it has to be dedicated.
But it not taking up a slot doesn't mean it doesn't award VPs in BGNT.
The tyrannocyte's battlefield role is "Heavy Support". It doesn't take up a slot on the FOC, but it maintains its Battlefield Role for all other rules purposes, including Big Guns Never Tire bonus points.
Sinful Hero wrote: @Crimson Heretic
The Tyrannocytes and the Carnifexes would be a good addition, but you might also look into getting a second Flyrant as soon as you can as well. A pair will rule the roost.
yes i've been thinking about getting another tyrant(winged this time) i had high hopes for the swarm lord but he seems to be an overpriced bullet magnet
Sinful Hero wrote: @Crimson Heretic The Tyrannocytes and the Carnifexes would be a good addition, but you might also look into getting a second Flyrant as soon as you can as well. A pair will rule the roost.
yes i've been thinking about getting another tyrant(winged this time) i had high hopes for the swarm lord but he seems to be an overpriced bullet magnet
Swarmlord in a Tyrannocyte coming in along with about 2 other melee threats (mawloc, dimachaeron, toxicrene, etc) can be placed in cover, and in threat range of the enemy. Between all the targets coming in at once, whatever decision your opponent makes trying to remove the threats typically won't be enough. Something of that group will make combat and start shredding the enemy.
It might not be an unbeatable combo but it makes swarmlord much more utilizable instead of just plodding him across the table on foot.
edit - to be fair a mawloc isn't a melee monster but he does wreak havoc in the enemy lines when he drops in. Any and all distraction units are great for this tactic.
Sinful Hero wrote: @Crimson Heretic
The Tyrannocytes and the Carnifexes would be a good addition, but you might also look into getting a second Flyrant as soon as you can as well. A pair will rule the roost.
yes i've been thinking about getting another tyrant(winged this time) i had high hopes for the swarm lord but he seems to be an overpriced bullet magnet
Swarmlord in a Tyrannocyte coming in along with about 2 other melee threats (mawloc, dimachaeron, toxicrene, etc) can be placed in cover, and in threat range of the enemy. Between all the targets coming in at once, whatever decision your opponent makes trying to remove the threats typically won't be enough. Something of that group will make combat and start shredding the enemy.
It might not be an unbeatable combo but it makes swarmlord much more utilizable instead of just plodding him across the table on foot.
edit - to be fair a mawloc isn't a melee monster but he does wreak havoc in the enemy lines when he drops in. Any and all distraction units are great for this tactic.
I'm still just not a fan of the melee monster in a pod. I can't stand something dropping in, and just standing there for a turn. I mean, we've always been able to Deep strike in melee shrikes, and how often has that ever been brought up? I don't even remember seeing it in any fourth/fifth edition tacticas. Of course resiliency of this versus that, but like I said back when warriors had Eternal Warrior I don't remember it ever being brought up. When you compare the damage you could do of two turns of shooting and an assault with a turn of standing there and then assaultin it usually doesn't stack up unless it's just such a hardcore melee unit and a resistant defender. But usually you could save on the pod and just walk him in the same amount of time(of course you get one turn where you aren't being shot at for deep striking).
I wonder if anyone could give me advice to play against a Brass Scorpion. I'm running the Tyranid Tournament build (3 Flyrants, Malanthrope, Barbed Heirodule)
S10 AP2 Ignore Cover threatens my backfield. AV 14/13/10 w/ 9 HP and a Demon save is hard to kill, especially if it gets defensive buffs. If it fails invis and doesn't get the Grim, I will throw a pile of devourer shots up its tailpipe, but otherwise, I mainly target supporting units right?
tetrisphreak wrote: The tyrannocyte's battlefield role is "Heavy Support". It doesn't take up a slot on the FOC, but it maintains its Battlefield Role for all other rules purposes, including Big Guns Never Tire bonus points.
Fair enough. I was dubious of this because it is the only example in all of 40k of this phenomena, but it seems like the RAW argument is clear. I'll save future debate for the YMDC forum.
tetrisphreak wrote: The tyrannocyte's battlefield role is "Heavy Support". It doesn't take up a slot on the FOC, but it maintains its Battlefield Role for all other rules purposes, including Big Guns Never Tire bonus points.
Fair enough. I was dubious of this because it is the only example in all of 40k of this phenomena, but it seems like the RAW argument is clear. I'll save future debate for the YMDC forum.
Except it's not. Any Heavy Support dedicated transport is a Heavy Support choice that doesn't take up a slot.
tag8833 wrote: I wonder if anyone could give me advice to play against a Brass Scorpion. I'm running the Tyranid Tournament build (3 Flyrants, Malanthrope, Barbed Heirodule)
S10 AP2 Ignore Cover threatens my backfield. AV 14/13/10 w/ 9 HP and a Demon save is hard to kill, especially if it gets defensive buffs. If it fails invis and doesn't get the Grim, I will throw a pile of devourer shots up its tailpipe, but otherwise, I mainly target supporting units right?
tetrisphreak wrote: The tyrannocyte's battlefield role is "Heavy Support". It doesn't take up a slot on the FOC, but it maintains its Battlefield Role for all other rules purposes, including Big Guns Never Tire bonus points.
Fair enough. I was dubious of this because it is the only example in all of 40k of this phenomena, but it seems like the RAW argument is clear. I'll save future debate for the YMDC forum.
Back armor is it's Achilles heel. Egrubs then grab back armor and pepper the front with your barb. Should die in 2 turns of firing. Goes without saying but stay 24' away with the Malanthrope and don't let it assault you.
Played my buddy from the dice abide (Adam) with his... It's a brutal LoW but the mobility of Flyrants are really hard on it.. Back 10 and only a 5++ is a pretty exploitable thing.. Now if they can grimoire it? Yeesh.
tag8833 wrote: I wonder if anyone could give me advice to play against a Brass Scorpion. I'm running the Tyranid Tournament build (3 Flyrants, Malanthrope, Barbed Heirodule)
S10 AP2 Ignore Cover threatens my backfield. AV 14/13/10 w/ 9 HP and a Demon save is hard to kill, especially if it gets defensive buffs. If it fails invis and doesn't get the Grim, I will throw a pile of devourer shots up its tailpipe, but otherwise, I mainly target supporting units right?
Barring shooting to the rear, which has already been mentioned several times, there is another tactic you can use against it:
1. Screen it out with your 2-3 flyrants. He cannot assault them and will have to waste movement to get around them. Just make sure you leave enough distance so that it cannot fully clear your flyrants. Then next turn, it's brainleech worms to the ass.
2. Screen it out with another cheap screening unit.
3. Hide your malanthrope behind BLOS terrain (fortunately for me, I usually have a bastion for him to stay in).
4. So what if you malanthrope dies? How much shooting does a Chaos army with a ~700-pt super-heavy normally has anyways?
5. Ignore him and kill off the rest of the Chaos army.
6. Who cares? Just let him duke it out with your barbed hierodule. As long as you keep Barbie completely in terrain, you have a slight advantage. That is because 1) you would have done some damage to it already between flyrant and Barbie shooting, 2) Barbie strikes 1st in terrain, 3) Barbie WS4 vs Scorpion WS3, 4) Barbie has FNP so does have 1/3 chance to deflect any wounds from it and 5) Barbie cannot be stomped on. Now if the scorpion gets Invisibility or Grimoire, then bye bye Barbie. In that case, move Barbie back so that it will take 3 turns to get to him. By the time it kills Barbie, it will be Turn 4 and the scorpion will potentially only have 1 more turn to do something.
The mistake I see a lot of players make is in thinking that the malanthrope or barbed hierodule is all important and must survive. To me, they are only sacrificial units. I really don't care if they die as long as my opponent doesn't kill my ObSec rippers/troops on objectives.
I'm mainly concerned that it makes the charge (3D6) into my Barbie while it is either invis or Grimoire or even cursed Earth. I'll duke it out 1 v 1, but I don't have that sort of support ability to help barbie out. Best I can do is hunt down whatever support unit is helping it out, it isn't worth an automatic perils to paroxism it.
By the way in close combat, the Brass Scorpion will do 1.67 unsaved wounds per turn to barbie (a little over 2 on the charge), while it will only take 1.23 back. Since it starts with 9 Hull points, and barbie starts with only 6 wounds, it had better be 1/2 dead by the time it gets in.
Barbie also loses to it in a pure shooting war. He is going to take 1.11 wounds from the blasts each turn, and another .55 wounds from the Assault 10 S6 AP3. Meanwhile if it is unbuffed but has front armor then it will take 2 Hull points back. So in 3.6 rounds of shooting it will kill a barbed heirodule who needs 5.2 rounds of shooting to kill it assuming it makes an average number IWND rolls.
tag8833 wrote: I'm mainly concerned that it makes the charge (3D6) into my Barbie while it is either invis or Grimoire or even cursed Earth. I'll duke it out 1 v 1, but I don't have that sort of support ability to help barbie out. Best I can do is hunt down whatever support unit is helping it out, it isn't worth an automatic perils to paroxism it.
By the way in close combat, the Brass Scorpion will do 1.67 unsaved wounds per turn to barbie (a little over 2 on the charge), while it will only take 1.23 back. Since it starts with 9 Hull points, and barbie starts with only 6 wounds, it had better be 1/2 dead by the time it gets in.
Even better! That means it will take about 2 full turns to kill Barbie. Move your Barbie back and try not to let the scorpion assault him until Turn 3 if possible. By the time combat is over, then the only thing that the scorpion would have been able to do is kill Barbie and maybe score the objective in your backfield. Meanwhile, for the rest of your battle, assuming you guys are running 1850, its 1285 of Tyranids vs 1150 of Chaos. Really, the way to beat any deathstar-type army is to kill the support units and you already have an advantage in that department.
Barbie also loses to it in a pure shooting war. He is going to take 1.11 wounds from the blasts each turn, and another .55 wounds from the Assault 10 S6 AP3. Meanwhile if it is unbuffed but has front armor then it will take 2 Hull points back. So in 3.6 rounds of shooting it will kill a barbed heirodule who needs 5.2 rounds of shooting to kill it assuming it makes an average number IWND rolls.
How do you get 1.11 wounds from the "blasts"? The scorpion only fires 1 blast a turn. It should be .56W a turn from the blast.
Don't forget that the scorpion cannot fire its blast at Barbie until after it's killed the malanthrope first. Otherwise, Barbie will be getting 2+/3+ cover save.
Last point I forgot to add from my previous post.
7. If the Grimoire holder is an FMC, you can easily kill it with 3 flyrants. If Invisibility is on an MC (i.e. Belakor, KoS, Slaanesh DP), you can also easily kill it with 3 flyrants. If the Grimoire holder buffs the Invisible guy, kill the Grimoire holder. If the Grimoire guy and Invisible guy buff themselves, then shoot the stinking scorpion in the ass. In any case, your flyrants should always have an important target to shoot at.
Barbie also loses to it in a pure shooting war. He is going to take 1.11 wounds from the blasts each turn, and another .55 wounds from the Assault 10 S6 AP3. Meanwhile if it is unbuffed but has front armor then it will take 2 Hull points back. So in 3.6 rounds of shooting it will kill a barbed heirodule who needs 5.2 rounds of shooting to kill it assuming it makes an average number IWND rolls.
How do you get 1.11 wounds from the "blasts"? The scorpion only fires 1 blast a turn. It should be .56W a turn from the blast.
I got the flamer and the blast weapon mixed up. 2 Flame templates is not near as scary.
Thanks for the Advice. Do you guys have thoughts on how I should deal with a Gauss Pylon? It's got the ability to take flyrants out with ease (Strength D Beam with Skyfire, 2D6 S6 AP3 shots), so I was thinking basically hide in reserves until Barbie Kills it.
Thanks for the Advice. Do you guys have thoughts on how I should deal with a Gauss Pylon? It's got the ability to take flyrants out with ease (Strength D Beam with Skyfire, 2D6 S6 AP3 shots), so I was thinking basically hide in reserves until Barbie Kills it.
It's not a big deal. First of all, as long as it doesn't roll a 6, then you will get cover saves from it. Within malanthrope range, you really don't have too much to worry about. Out of malanthrope range, it may hurt, but most likely, it'll take probably 2 turns for the pylon to kill 1 flyrant and that is assuming only 4+ jink.
However, here's the kicker. The Pylon can only snapshot at ground targets. So if you're really concerned about the Pylon, then you can just have your flyrants stay on the ground for 1 or maybe even 2 turns (until the Necron bargelords or wraithstars gets close).
BTW, it's not a Beam but just 3 shots. It's got Skyfire and Interceptor so can only snap-shot at units on the Ground, which is why it really isn't considered very good anymore by most Necron players.
As for the S6 shots, I think it is only 1D6 shots with I believe 18" range only (going off memory, don't have my book with me). You can avoid that.
BTW, it's only got 6HP's so get up in its grill with 3 egrub templates and 12 S10 shots and I believe you can take it out in no time. Now, the rest of the Necron army is what you should be more concerned about.
tetrisphreak wrote: Skyfire works on flying monstrous creatures. It doesn't differentiate between gliding and swooping ones.
Woops! My bad.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, so after looking at the rules for the Gauss Pylon again, I'd like to make a couple of corrections.
Mistake: Flyrants can go into gliding mode against the Pylon. However, this makes no difference since the Pylon will still hit it at regular BS.
Solution: Team up against it with multiple flyrants with egrubs. Shoot at it with the barbed hierodule. Drop carnifexes in tyrannocytes near it if you run that unit. Jink with flyrants when targeted by the Pylon.
Mistake: Flux Arc is actually Heavy 2D6 (and not the D6 that I originally thought).
Solution: Its range is really short at only 18". You can easily avoid it. Also, the flux arc does not have Skyfire so your flyrants will be relatively safe against it in the air.
Seems like I just ignore it and kill everything else. I still get cover save so long as it doesn't take out the malanthrope. But it is AV 14/13/12 with 12 Hull points, so Killing it would be quite difficult.
Seems like I just ignore it and kill everything else. I still get cover save so long as it doesn't take out the malanthrope. But it is AV 14/13/12 with 12 Hull points, so Killing it would be quite difficult.
What does it's main gun do again? Honestly as long as it's not D/ignore cover you're probably fine. Otherwise, ignore that thing while Flyrants fly circles around it, you should be able to handle the diminished points of Imperials and it will almost always accomplish less that it's points against you. Now, if you do have to kill it, haywire flamers and rear armor glances are a wonderful thing. If you're podding in a fex, on the charge that will do a ton of damage to a superheavy.
Seems like I just ignore it and kill everything else. I still get cover save so long as it doesn't take out the malanthrope. But it is AV 14/13/12 with 12 Hull points, so Killing it would be quite difficult.
The Fellblade is actually a really good tank, probably even the best baneblade-type tank around.
However, I wouldn't worry too much about it with flyrant-spam and malanthrope cover. You've got what it takes to survive its firepower so long as you can get cover. My advice? Ignore the darn thing and kill off the rest of the army. Or if you want to take out the tank, it'll probably take you at least 3 full turns to do so with 3 flyrants and your barbed hierodule. But honestly, don't bother unless you've got nothing else to kill.
What does it's main gun do again? Honestly as long as it's not D/ignore cover you're probably fine. Otherwise, ignore that thing while Flyrants fly circles around it, you should be able to handle the diminished points of Imperials and it will almost always accomplish less that it's points against you. Now, if you do have to kill it, haywire flamers and rear armor glances are a wonderful thing. If you're podding in a fex, on the charge that will do a ton of damage to a superheavy.
It's got 2 main firing modes - either a 7" S8 AP3 blast or a 3" S9 AP2 Armorbane shot. Both shots are twin-linked and it doesn't ignore cover.
jy2 wrote: It's got 2 main firing modes - either a 7" S8 AP3 blast or a 3" S9 AP2 Armorbane shot. Both shots are twin-linked and it doesn't ignore cover.
Its also got a Quad Las-Cannon aka Assault 2, S9 AP2 48" which is probably enough to keep one flyrant jinking the whole game.
jy2 wrote: It's got 2 main firing modes - either a 7" S8 AP3 blast or a 3" S9 AP2 Armorbane shot. Both shots are twin-linked and it doesn't ignore cover.
Its also got a Quad Las-Cannon aka Assault 2, S9 AP2 48" which is probably enough to keep one flyrant jinking the whole game.
I think it has 2 of those, they're it's sponsons. Being a Super Heavy it can shoot them at 2 different targets cant it? Could get a bit irritating making 2 Flyrants Jink all game.
The meltas only have 12" range, so put the gargoyles and rippers around(max coherency) your monstreous creatures so that he can not drop within range of them. Second tur he's very vulnerable to your charges.
Use the mawlocs on his sang priests (their attack is ap2 right?) So only the iron hands chapter master gets to save anything.
I think you're pretty well equiped. Also try to use buildings etc to create places where he can't drop.
killerdou wrote: The meltas only have 12" range, so put the gargoyles and rippers around(max coherency) your monstreous creatures so that he can not drop within range of them. Second tur he's very vulnerable to your charges.
Use the mawlocs on his sang priests (their attack is ap2 right?) So only the iron hands chapter master gets to save anything.
I think you're pretty well equiped. Also try to use buildings etc to create places where he can't drop.
That was pretty much what I was thinking, I think he'll combine Dante, the priest, the Sang Guard and the Bikermaster for a baby Death Star, which I'll either ignore or just harass with Mawloc drops.
Would it be worth it against this kind of list to try and bait and draw with my objectives? So place them away from where I am deployed, to take advantage of my mobility.
rigeld2 wrote: Instead of jinking, keep a toe in terrain. 1 less save, but if it doesn't have skyfire there's a low chance of hitting.
I find with 3 flyrants, it is pretty difficult to keep all 3 of them in terrain every turn. Usually I can pull it off on turn 1 and 2, but after that I need to respond to my opponent's movement, and usually that means 1 of the 3 flyrants is not on terrain.
killerdou wrote: The meltas only have 12" range, so put the gargoyles and rippers around(max coherency) your monstreous creatures so that he can not drop within range of them. Second tur he's very vulnerable to your charges.
Use the mawlocs on his sang priests (their attack is ap2 right?) So only the iron hands chapter master gets to save anything.
I think you're pretty well equiped. Also try to use buildings etc to create places where he can't drop.
That was pretty much what I was thinking, I think he'll combine Dante, the priest, the Sang Guard and the Bikermaster for a baby Death Star, which I'll either ignore or just harass with Mawloc drops.
Would it be worth it against this kind of list to try and bait and draw with my objectives? So place them away from where I am deployed, to take advantage of my mobility.
I would, if nothing else it robs him of the pods objective holding power.
3x Valk Skytalons - that is 6x hellstrike missiles
3x Vendetta - that is 9 TL lascannon shots
3x Avenger Strike Fighters - 6 Lascannon shots
This does not take into account the avenger bolt cannon or extra heavy bolters - both possible. At 18590 they likely can add reserve manipulation as well.
I've seen the worries over a Tau list with skyfire. AM can field even more offense against FMCs.
3x Valk Skytalons - that is 6x hellstrike missiles
3x Vendetta - that is 9 TL lascannon shots
3x Avenger Strike Fighters - 6 Lascannon shots
This does not take into account the avenger bolt cannon or extra heavy bolters - both possible. At 18590 they likely can add reserve manipulation as well.
I've seen the worries over a Tau list with skyfire. AM can field even more offense against FMCs.
The reason I have no concerns over AM sky fire is because they don't ignore cover with any of those units... With three vendettas I will take one wound if I'm in a ruin with a Mal, and my return fire will do more. Plus, he will have crapoy ground presence, and I will control the board. Tau are bad for their ability to take sky fire units and then give them ignore cover.
3x Valk Skytalons - that is 6x hellstrike missiles
3x Vendetta - that is 9 TL lascannon shots
3x Avenger Strike Fighters - 6 Lascannon shots
This does not take into account the avenger bolt cannon or extra heavy bolters - both possible. At 18590 they likely can add reserve manipulation as well.
I've seen the worries over a Tau list with skyfire. AM can field even more offense against FMCs.
Played agame against a friend at the LGS who will be attending the LVO in February and is testing out a couple different lists.
The list he tried out was centered around the Aquilla Strongpoint, using an Exarch's abilities to give the D cannon an extra (read: third) strength D shot at BS 5 which also ignores night fighting and jink due to the Eldar Exarch's rules from gear given by I think the Dark Reaper squad upgrades IIRC. In any case, some pretty crazy nonsense, but for a metric ton of points. I asked him how tough of a list he wanted me to bring and he requested the toughest, so out came a Pentyrant list. I just used the one JY2 gave a few pages back since I had those models with me (sans the fifth Flyrant, whose part would be played by a carnifex (and a dead Flyrant soon enough. Spoiler alert!) and a bastion that would serve as a good outline for a void shield generator, assuming it as transparent for LOS purposes).
His list also included 2 wave serpents and a knight errant. There was some other stuff too but that was the meat of it for the most part. He actually popped the void shields on both turn 1 and turn 2, dropping the D on 3 Flyrants (2 shots each) and a Malanthrope (3 shots) on turn 1. I figured it would be best to take good cover instead of spreading out and taking D3 wounds for each failed jink. Not enough wounds on a Flyrant for that haha! Wound up giving one Flyrant the D, earning him first blood. I was actually incredibly lucky that it wasn't worse. Out of 9 rolls, he got 1 six. In fairness, the Malanthrope wouldn't have been terrible to lose, but he certainly could have gotten 2 Flyrants right off the bat.
Fast forwarding WAY forward because this isn't worth any proper bat rep (my good friend really needs to get his dice checked out before the LVO) I can't remember the last time I'd seen such horrible luck. I was didn't fail a grounding check all game, and not for his lack of effort (or mine, for that matter). Just don't cast WC2 powers with a Flyrant. It's not worth it, I promise. Unless you're casting on 2 dice and have nothing better to do. FYI my only success that game using that method was double sixes anyhow. You know what they say about Lady Luck...
Anyhow the game went seven turns and he managed to kill exactly one Flyrant (the one that he gave the D to on turn one). He's a better general than I so the game was closer than it should have been, but close would still be a generous term. Absolutely brutal list, though his list was especially ill-equipped to deal with it. So is adlance though too, which is what he will probably actually wind up bringing to the LVO. In at case, we may very well see how many people decide to bring 4-5 Flyrants and place extremely well as a result. So very strong
3x Valk Skytalons - that is 6x hellstrike missiles
3x Vendetta - that is 9 TL lascannon shots
3x Avenger Strike Fighters - 6 Lascannon shots
This does not take into account the avenger bolt cannon or extra heavy bolters - both possible. At 18590 they likely can add reserve manipulation as well.
I've seen the worries over a Tau list with skyfire. AM can field even more offense against FMCs.
That list is quite unbalanced.
Not to mention Valkyries and Vendettas are nearly the same size as the Harridan.. How on earth are you manoeuvring 9 of these things into favourable positions? What's stopping the 5 Flyrants from wiping out what little forces you've started on the board?
Also some maths. 6 BS3 + 9 BS3 TL shots = 3 + 6.75 hits = 9.75 hits per turn = 8.1 wounds per turn. Best case scenario you kill a Jinking Flyrant. However this gets worse fast if it has FnP, a foot in cover or a Mope/Vope nearby and this is assuming you somehow managed to get 6 giant planes all aiming at the same thing. So The bulk of your antiair can barley kill one per turn and the rest have 6 one use only missiles. Not a good plan.
Malonthrope
3 x ds rippers
3 x ds rippers
3 x ds rippers
15 x Gargoyles
15 x Gargoyles
Dimachaeron
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Tyrannocyte
I've always had trouble against drop pod lists, any advice for facing it?
Avoid that deathstar like a plague! And then come up on top of them with your mawlocs. LOL!
No, just kidding.
Ignore his deathstar. Bait them away with your dimachaeron. He should be able to kill some before dying when he gets charged. Kill all the tactical marines and drop pods first (if they're on objectives) and then deal with his deathstar last. You should have the advantage in this game. He's got nothing that can deal with your flyrants.
luke1705 wrote: Played agame against a friend at the LGS who will be attending the LVO in February and is testing out a couple different lists.
The list he tried out was centered around the Aquilla Strongpoint, using an Exarch's abilities to give the D cannon an extra (read: third) strength D shot at BS 5 which also ignores night fighting and jink due to the Eldar Exarch's rules from gear given by I think the Dark Reaper squad upgrades IIRC. In any case, some pretty crazy nonsense, but for a metric ton of points. I asked him how tough of a list he wanted me to bring and he requested the toughest, so out came a Pentyrant list. I just used the one JY2 gave a few pages back since I had those models with me (sans the fifth Flyrant, whose part would be played by a carnifex (and a dead Flyrant soon enough. Spoiler alert!) and a bastion that would serve as a good outline for a void shield generator, assuming it as transparent for LOS purposes).
His list also included 2 wave serpents and a knight errant. There was some other stuff too but that was the meat of it for the most part. He actually popped the void shields on both turn 1 and turn 2, dropping the D on 3 Flyrants (2 shots each) and a Malanthrope (3 shots) on turn 1. I figured it would be best to take good cover instead of spreading out and taking D3 wounds for each failed jink. Not enough wounds on a Flyrant for that haha! Wound up giving one Flyrant the D, earning him first blood. I was actually incredibly lucky that it wasn't worse. Out of 9 rolls, he got 1 six. In fairness, the Malanthrope wouldn't have been terrible to lose, but he certainly could have gotten 2 Flyrants right off the bat.
Fast forwarding WAY forward because this isn't worth any proper bat rep (my good friend really needs to get his dice checked out before the LVO) I can't remember the last time I'd seen such horrible luck. I was didn't fail a grounding check all game, and not for his lack of effort (or mine, for that matter). Just don't cast WC2 powers with a Flyrant. It's not worth it, I promise. Unless you're casting on 2 dice and have nothing better to do. FYI my only success that game using that method was double sixes anyhow. You know what they say about Lady Luck...
Anyhow the game went seven turns and he managed to kill exactly one Flyrant (the one that he gave the D to on turn one). He's a better general than I so the game was closer than it should have been, but close would still be a generous term. Absolutely brutal list, though his list was especially ill-equipped to deal with it. So is adlance though too, which is what he will probably actually wind up bringing to the LVO. In at case, we may very well see how many people decide to bring 4-5 Flyrants and place extremely well as a result. So very strong
Yup, it's a meta-changer.
If I was running Tyranids at a tournament, I'd probably go 4 flyrants max unless it was a huge GT (like the LVO ).
@Jy2. That's pretty much what I planned on doing, I figured if I focus on killing everything else and making the most of my mobility and taking opportunistic shots at the death star with my Mawlocs, since the wounds come from the centre of the blasts chances are I can take a bit of the bite out of the unit by killing a few Sanguinary Guard.
rigeld2 wrote: Instead of jinking, keep a toe in terrain. 1 less save, but if it doesn't have skyfire there's a low chance of hitting.
I find with 3 flyrants, it is pretty difficult to keep all 3 of them in terrain every turn. Usually I can pull it off on turn 1 and 2, but after that I need to respond to my opponent's movement, and usually that means 1 of the 3 flyrants is not on terrain.
Umm.... its a 2 1/2 base, all you need it to be touching something.
Its not that hard, I play with 6 fliers almost always and only 1-2 are ever out of cover....
rigeld2 wrote: Instead of jinking, keep a toe in terrain. 1 less save, but if it doesn't have skyfire there's a low chance of hitting.
I find with 3 flyrants, it is pretty difficult to keep all 3 of them in terrain every turn. Usually I can pull it off on turn 1 and 2, but after that I need to respond to my opponent's movement, and usually that means 1 of the 3 flyrants is not on terrain.
Umm.... its a 2 1/2 base, all you need it to be touching something.
Its not that hard, I play with 6 fliers almost always and only 1-2 are ever out of cover....
It really depends on how much terrain - or more importantly, ruins - that you play with.
rigeld2 wrote: Instead of jinking, keep a toe in terrain. 1 less save, but if it doesn't have skyfire there's a low chance of hitting.
I find with 3 flyrants, it is pretty difficult to keep all 3 of them in terrain every turn. Usually I can pull it off on turn 1 and 2, but after that I need to respond to my opponent's movement, and usually that means 1 of the 3 flyrants is not on terrain.
Umm.... its a 2 1/2 base, all you need it to be touching something.
Its not that hard, I play with 6 fliers almost always and only 1-2 are ever out of cover....
It really depends on how much terrain - or more importantly, ruins - that you play with.
Also intervening models works for a 5+ too, doesnt matter if its swooping or gliding, model in front of the MC's gives it a 5+
I dont always have a 4+, but sometimes a 5+ is good enough, if 4 shots are hitting 3 hit, needing 3 to wound it would be a 1.5 wonds with 5+ save I dont care to jink always.
So, LVO finally released their FAQ. 3 Rules changes blew up the list I had been practicing with.
1) Tyrannocytes shoot like vehicles with hull mounted weapons
2) Void Shields extend to all models in a unit, not just those in range of the shield.
3) Tank Traps are ignored by walkers and super heavy walkers. (WTF?)
I'm headed to the event, and so I've got to go back to the drawing board for my list. I imagine I'm the most affected player in this thread, but figured I'd mention it.
tag8833 wrote: So, LVO finally released their FAQ. 3 Rules changes blew up the list I had been practicing with.
1) Tyrannocytes shoot like vehicles with hull mounted weapons
2) Void Shields extend to all models in a unit, not just those in range of the shield.
3) Tank Traps are ignored by walkers and super heavy walkers. (WTF?)
I'm headed to the event, and so I've got to go back to the drawing board for my list. I imagine I'm the most affected player in this thread, but figured I'd mention it.
Those sound..... last time I check MC's can shoot 360, Walkers are vehicles and the rules fpr void shield I can see it only effecting models inside the "Zone"
tag8833 wrote: So, LVO finally released their FAQ. 3 Rules changes blew up the list I had been practicing with.
1) Tyrannocytes shoot like vehicles with hull mounted weapons
2) Void Shields extend to all models in a unit, not just those in range of the shield.
3) Tank Traps are ignored by walkers and super heavy walkers. (WTF?)
I'm headed to the event, and so I've got to go back to the drawing board for my list. I imagine I'm the most affected player in this thread, but figured I'd mention it.
tag8833 wrote: So, LVO finally released their FAQ. 3 Rules changes blew up the list I had been practicing with.
1) Tyrannocytes shoot like vehicles with hull mounted weapons
2) Void Shields extend to all models in a unit, not just those in range of the shield.
3) Tank Traps are ignored by walkers and super heavy walkers. (WTF?)
I'm headed to the event, and so I've got to go back to the drawing board for my list. I imagine I'm the most affected player in this thread, but figured I'd mention it.
Those sound..... last time I check MC's can shoot 360, Walkers are vehicles and the rules fpr void shield I can see it only effecting models inside the "Zone"
Tyrannocytes is a rules change going with what they think is RAI.
Void Shields really needs to be clarified. I'm glad that's taken care of.
Tank traps isn't a big deal. Who brings them anyways? BTW, I agree with them on this. Walkers move like infantry and not like tanks.
BTW, these FAQ's aren't just arbitrary, and they aren't just changed by Reece and the guys at Frontline. They were actually voted on by a panel of TO's and community leaders. You're going to see them at most of the larger tournaments throughout the US (and probably Europe as well).
tag8833 wrote: So, LVO finally released their FAQ. 3 Rules changes blew up the list I had been practicing with. 1) Tyrannocytes shoot like vehicles with hull mounted weapons 2) Void Shields extend to all models in a unit, not just those in range of the shield. 3) Tank Traps are ignored by walkers and super heavy walkers. (WTF?) I'm headed to the event, and so I've got to go back to the drawing board for my list. I imagine I'm the most affected player in this thread, but figured I'd mention it.
How so? Care to clarify?
My list revolved around a Void Shield Generator with Tank Traps, which had the effect of keeping a Barbed Heirodule safe from walkers or super heavy Walkers that might assault him. The Tank Traps work especially well, because if there are no walkers that I fear assaulting me, I can move through them as if they are open terrain and don't have to make a Move Through Cover Roll. Meanwhile they provide a 4+ cover save to Barbie which gets amplified to a 2+ by the Malanthrope. Between all of that it was very, very, very hard for opponents to get 1st blood from me, and yet easy for my entire firepower to start on the table, and come to bear on turn 1.
I also had a Tyrannocyte in the list, but that nerf is fairly mild all things considered, and if my void shield generator hadn't been turned into a giant liability, it would have stayed in the list.
Re: the FAQ being good, and decided by committee. I agree that it is a good thing. I'm pissed right now because it hit me fairly hard, but I think pretty much everything in the FAQ is a good thing. I would have never ruled that way on tank traps or Void shields for completely different and quasi contradictory reasons.
Tank Traps were only worth taking as a way to protect units from walkers assaulting. They had no other reason to cost more than a barricade which created the same cover save. There was no RAW confusion here. RAW was entirely clear. Walkers are vehicles and not skimmers. Tank Traps are impassible to any vehicles. Walkers move like infantry. How do infantry move over impassible terrain? It seems like an arbitrary nerf to an upgrade that was barely even worth its original points, and now will never see the table again until the rules or points cost are changed.
Void Shield generators are more complicated. Suffice to say, the ruling creates an awful lot of stupidly exploitable scenarios. While the RAW argument for it is clear, and is more compelling than the RAW argument against it, the impact of the rule as FAQed is game breaking in a way that isn't worth a crucifiction on the cross of RAW. My guess is that the committee didn't get much table time in with Void Shield Generators, and don't understand the full implications. If void shield generators are as popular at LVO as in my local meta I am sure they will hear the cries of frustration come gameday.
ETA: On the plus side, when you are traveling 1,100 miles, packing a Tyrannocyte and a Void Shield generator are kinda a pain.
tag8833 wrote: So, LVO finally released their FAQ. 3 Rules changes blew up the list I had been practicing with.
1) Tyrannocytes shoot like vehicles with hull mounted weapons
2) Void Shields extend to all models in a unit, not just those in range of the shield.
3) Tank Traps are ignored by walkers and super heavy walkers. (WTF?)
I'm headed to the event, and so I've got to go back to the drawing board for my list. I imagine I'm the most affected player in this thread, but figured I'd mention it.
How so? Care to clarify?
My list revolved around a Void Shield Generator with Tank Traps, which had the effect of keeping a Barbed Heirodule safe from walkers or super heavy Walkers that might assault him. The Tank Traps work especially well, because if there are no walkers that I fear assaulting me, I can move through them as if they are open terrain and don't have to make a Move Through Cover Roll. Meanwhile they provide a 4+ cover save to Barbie which gets amplified to a 2+ by the Malanthrope. Between all of that it was very, very, very hard for opponents to get 1st blood from me, and yet easy for my entire firepower to start on the table, and come to bear on turn 1.
I also had a Tyrannocyte in the list, but that nerf is fairly mild all things considered, and if my void shield generator hadn't been turned into a giant liability, it would have stayed in the list.
Re: the FAQ being good, and decided by committee. I agree that it is a good thing. I'm pissed right now because it hit me fairly hard, but I think pretty much everything in the FAQ is a good thing. I would have never ruled that way on tank traps or Void shields for completely different and quasi contradictory reasons.
Tank Traps were only worth taking as a way to protect units from walkers assaulting. They had no other reason to cost more than a barricade which created the same cover save. There was no RAW confusion here. RAW was entirely clear. Walkers are vehicles and not skimmers. Tank Traps are impassible to any vehicles. Walkers move like infantry. How do infantry move over impassible terrain? It seems like an arbitrary nerf to an upgrade that was barely even worth its original points, and now will never see the table again until the rules or points cost are changed.
Void Shield generators are more complicated. Suffice to say, the ruling creates an awful lot of stupidly exploitable scenarios. While the RAW argument for it is clear, and is more compelling than the RAW argument against it, the impact of the rule as FAQed is game breaking in a way that isn't worth a crucifiction on the cross of RAW. My guess is that the committee didn't get much table time in with Void Shield Generators, and don't understand the full implications. If void shield generators are as popular at LVO as in my local meta I am sure they will hear the cries of frustration come gameday.
First of all, I agree with your thoughts on the Tyrannocyte. His "nerf" isn't really that big of a deal. I mean, if you want to go purely RAW, monstrous creatures can only fire 2 guns anyways. The fact that he can fire all 5 of his guns indicates to me that his shooting is non-standard anyways. In any case, that item is just a minor issue.
With tank traps, I never really thought about your strategy, but the rules "change" for that isn't game-breaking either. This one here, I'm sure that they were going off based on RAI. Walkers are supposed to move like infantry. They don't take immobilization tests for going through difficult terrain. Instead, they just take difficult terrain movement penalties just like standard infantry. Since infantry can move through tank traps, I can see why the case was made for walkers to move over them freely as well.
Don't worry Tag, you're probably the only one using this tactic. Not too many other players are using it, so it just means you're going to play with your Barbie just like everyone else.
Void shields is a major ruling and one that makes them really damn good. It's a double edged sword. That means your opponent can conga-line his blob squad or seer council and still be protected by his void shields. It also means you can conga-line your hormagants or gargoyles or, better yet, your Skytyrant formation and still receive its benefits. In any case, it is a clarification that is long needed. I have seen players go both ways with it (someone played it the conga-line version at the 11th Co. GT). At least now you know what to expect from it.
jy2 wrote: Don't worry Tag, you're probably the only one using this tactic. Not too many other players are using it, so it just means you're going to play with your Barbie just like everyone else.
I like to think I'm pretty bright, but I'm also old enough to know that if I've thought of it so have dozens of others. Also, I haven't exactly been secret about it. I've posted questions about it on the FLG forum several times over the last 6 months. Mainly trying to figure out how to build tank traps such that they give cover to Barbie without making an illegal model for them.
But I'm also non-conformist enough that I don't want to play Barbie just like everyone else. Gotta put my special touch on it. Eats me up that there are going to be multiple lists with 3 Flyrants, Barbie, and a Malanthrope, and that we are talking about a 15% difference between my list and other Tyranid lists. I was tempted to run my Raveners list, and just eat losses whenever I run into AD Lance, Flying Circus, or farsight bomb. I have worked so hard to build a list with MCs in Tyrannocytes rather than a Barbed Heirodule. Right now, I'm tempted to bring out the LAN list that I've had good success with, except Necron lists like yours eat it up, and it struggles mightily against lists with 4+ Wave Serpents, and often gives up 1st blood which puts me at a significant disadvantage in BAO missions. So, yeah, just like everyone else, I'll probably end up running THE tyranid tourney list.
tag8833 wrote: So, LVO finally released their FAQ. 3 Rules changes blew up the list I had been practicing with.
1) Tyrannocytes shoot like vehicles with hull mounted weapons
2) Void Shields extend to all models in a unit, not just those in range of the shield.
3) Tank Traps are ignored by walkers and super heavy walkers. (WTF?)
I'm headed to the event, and so I've got to go back to the drawing board for my list. I imagine I'm the most affected player in this thread, but figured I'd mention it.
that ruling on Voidshields seems a little silly... you can deploy a single model within range of it and then string the unit up the board ( ala gargoyles) and still be protected?
madness.
I don't like the Tyrannocyte ruling either, in the UK it is currently ruled as counting as an MC with 360 LOS that can fire all 5 weapons.
Wilson wrote: that ruling on Voidshields seems a little silly... you can deploy a single model within range of it and then string the unit up the board ( ala gargoyles) and still be protected?
Unfortunately with Imperial Knights being such a thing, and Necron AV13 wall, it is quite difficult to run an effective tyranid hoard army, because you have no meaningful way to interact with those two builds, so Tyranids aren't prepared to take advantage of this in the way that Demons, Orks, and IG that are more capable of hoard builds.
If endless swarm had Objective secured, I might make a go of it. I'd also be tempted to run skyblight with 60-90 Gargoyles alongside a flying circus if I had that many gargoyles. Of course both of those ideas are mainly theory hammer, I've never tried to pull this sort of stunt because it would have been understandably unpleasant for my opponents, and it can be hard to get games done in a tourney timeframe with high model count lists.
So I had a handful of games last night testing different things, one of which I used the Pentyrant list against a matchup I thought would be a nightmare for it: Venom Spam Dark Eldar.
Spoiler:
His list (not gonna be exact):
Urien Rakarth
3 Raiders with Splinter Racks full of Warriors with Splinter Cannons
3 squads of 6 Scourges with Splinter Cannons
6 Venoms
2 Void Ravens
(probably missing something)
My list:
CAD:
2 Flyrants w/ Devourers and Egrubs (1 with Fighter Ace)
3 Lictors
3 squads of 3 Rippers with Deep Strike
Bastion w/ Comms Relay
Mawloc
Leviathan:
3 Flyrants w/ Devourers and Egrubs
Venomthrope
3 Mucolids
So we played the ETC missions, rolled Big Guns Never Tire, a Maelstrom secondary (honestly don't remember which one), and Hammer and Anvil deployment (which I think was my death sentence). I got the first turn and deployed first at the edge of my deployment zone inside a ruin with the Bastion out front, he measured my out and deployed out of my range (or so he thought), but with three of the Flyrants I rolled Onslaught so I could reach out and get to him (or so I thought). I failed to run far enough with two of the three Flyrants, and in his return fire I lost two of them to massed poisoned fire. The rest of the game he proceeded to pick the Flyrants off at a clip of about one a turn, and he won pretty handily.
Despite my bad luck in deployment and run rolls, I feel like this is an exceedingly bad matchup for the Pentyrant list. Just the weight of twin linked poisoned fire is incredibly hard for Tyranids anyway, but they've got the weight of fire to take down the lower wound count of the Pentyrants quite well.
Is this as bad a matchup as I think it is? Or am I more the victim of a bad deployment and my own over-aggression?
Tarnag wrote: Is this as bad a matchup as I think it is? Or am I more the victim of a bad deployment and my own over-aggression?
You definitely played a little over-aggressive. I've taken down similar lists with a 2-3 flyrant approach. Venoms/Raiders with warriors inside is why E.Grubs exist.
A venom by itself isn't terribly threatening to a flyrant. 12 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, and then your 3+ armor save, so statistically, it should take 12 Venoms to kill a single flyrant. The warriors inside can do a similar amount of damage, but only once they get into 12". I'm not saying it is a cake walk. Dark Eldar poison is good against Tyranids, but they are also really vulnerable to template weapons.
LVO has decided that 22 Venoms is OK, and that list would certainly cause problems for 5 flyrants, but I'm not positive it is a hard counter either.
@Tarnag
Is there a reason you played against a tailored list like that? Other than the two voidravens, that list has no anti-tank. Who did Urien roll with?
Sinful Hero wrote: @Tarnag
Is there a reason you played against a tailored list like that? Other than the two voidravens, that list has no anti-tank. Who did Urien roll with?
I would guess that all 3 raiders have Dark Lances, and every venom includes a squad of warriors with a blaster. It probably has a decent amount of anti-tank.
Sinful Hero wrote: @Tarnag
Is there a reason you played against a tailored list like that? Other than the two voidravens, that list has no anti-tank. Who did Urien roll with?
I would guess that all 3 raiders have Dark Lances, and every venom includes a squad of warriors with a blaster. It probably has a decent amount of anti-tank.
9 Str 8 Ap 2 shots plus 4 Str 9 Ap 2 just seems a little light to me, but I may be biased. I would expect a couple of the Scourge squads to be packing Heatlances/Haywire Blasters or some Reavers.
Sinful Hero wrote: @Tarnag
Is there a reason you played against a tailored list like that? Other than the two voidravens, that list has no anti-tank. Who did Urien roll with?
I would guess that all 3 raiders have Dark Lances, and every venom includes a squad of warriors with a blaster. It probably has a decent amount of anti-tank.
9 Str 8 Ap 2 shots plus 4 Str 9 Ap 2 just seems a little light to me, but I may be biased. I would expect a couple of the Scourge squads to be packing Heatlances/Haywire Blasters or some Reavers.
Plenty of Gargoyles for screening and road-blocking, decent Tyrant coverage and Sporocysts have really grown on me for objective camping (Skyblight seems made for this too, as all the FMCs make for a very chaotic game leaving the Sporocysts as a lower priority target).
tag8833 wrote: So, LVO finally released their FAQ. 3 Rules changes blew up the list I had been practicing with.
1) Tyrannocytes shoot like vehicles with hull mounted weapons
2) Void Shields extend to all models in a unit, not just those in range of the shield.
3) Tank Traps are ignored by walkers and super heavy walkers. (WTF?)
I'm headed to the event, and so I've got to go back to the drawing board for my list. I imagine I'm the most affected player in this thread, but figured I'd mention it.
that ruling on Voidshields seems a little silly... you can deploy a single model within range of it and then string the unit up the board ( ala gargoyles) and still be protected?
madness.
Perhaps I am missing something, but isn't this what we do/can do with our venom/malanthrope shrouded bubbles? So if we can get a shrouded bubble extending to whole unit by conga lining, why not shields?
BTW, I have zero experience or knowledge of void shields, so am just going off what I read here. So if someone could clarify for me that would be great
Sinful Hero wrote: @Tarnag
Is there a reason you played against a tailored list like that? Other than the two voidravens, that list has no anti-tank. Who did Urien roll with?
I would guess that all 3 raiders have Dark Lances, and every venom includes a squad of warriors with a blaster. It probably has a decent amount of anti-tank.
9 Str 8 Ap 2 shots plus 4 Str 9 Ap 2 just seems a little light to me, but I may be biased. I would expect a couple of the Scourge squads to be packing Heatlances/Haywire Blasters or some Reavers.
Lol how is 9 lances light on Antitank? Nutta
As a DE player... they suck at taking out tanks.
3 Ravagers is 9 shots: At bs4, on average 6 hits. If the armor is 12 (lance making it 12 in most cases) you need 4's to glance and 5/6 to pen, thats 3 HP's on average for 1 tank kill (thats if they dont have cover). So your using 375pts to do 3 HP's a turn on. Remember you shooting with a AV11 Open top vehicle that has to jink to live and will most likely not get its full impact in.
I only play 2 armies, Nids and DE and after many games of DE (all of 6th and almost all of 7th so far till the Nids Drop pods came out) I can say this, 20 lances isnt enough... 30 lances isnt sometimes.
A Normal DE army has 12-15 lances, 80-120 Poison shots, 8-12 Haywire in a 1500point list.
I actually stop taking Dark lances on my Raiders b.c those 3-4 extra lances dont really do anything, have 3 shots that can kill guys is better, if I can kill off Marker lights/Gun drones, Suits, Havoc's, Obliterates, Noise guys etc.. My Vehicles will last longer. PLUS, with a 4+ jink Im ALWAYS JINKING to stay alive..
DE is only 36" shooting with a 6" move (venoms can move 12 and fire 12 shots), so If you start all the way back you should be out of range of almost everything, with Malanthrope/Venom and some gants wall, you have a 2+/jink or a 3+ open cover saves.
Not to mention those Blasters in the Venoms are 18" range, and those Void Lances don't come in until turn two at the earliest.
Compare to Tyranids with three tyrants are packing 24 Twinlinked Str 6 shots and three Haywire templates, not counting the rest of the army.
To me, the Deldar list seems really light on effective anti-tank.
Sinful Hero wrote: Not to mention those Blasters in the Venoms are 18" range, and those Void Lances don't come in until turn two at the earliest.
Compare to Tyranids with three tyrants are packing 24 Twinlinked Str 6 shots and three Haywire templates, not counting the rest of the army.
To me, the Deldar list seems really light on effective anti-tank.
Honestly I feel Necrons would do better against Pentyrant than DE now days, Even DE Fliers cant take a Tyrant down. 2 Shots... ok, the tyrant takes a wound.. maybe 2 (cover saves etc...) then 12 TL s6 shots at a flier with AV 10... I wonder who wins lol
Sinful Hero wrote: Not to mention those Blasters in the Venoms are 18" range, and those Void Lances don't come in until turn two at the earliest.
Compare to Tyranids with three tyrants are packing 24 Twinlinked Str 6 shots and three Haywire templates, not counting the rest of the army.
To me, the Deldar list seems really light on effective anti-tank.
Honestly I feel Necrons would do better against Pentyrant than DE now days, Even DE Fliers cant take a Tyrant down. 2 Shots... ok, the tyrant takes a wound.. maybe 2 (cover saves etc...) then 12 TL s6 shots at a flier with AV 10... I wonder who wins lol
Usually I would agree, but this list used Splinter Scourges, effectively bumping up the number of Venom-equivalents. I can see how over-extending the Tyrants and the deployment type can give the tyranid list trouble.
12 sources of poison fire with a minimum of 12 shots per unit, and the Tyrants came into their effective range without threatening the Deldar- it's going to take a heavy toll, especially if they're rolling hot..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now that I think about it, three of those Venoms would have had to come from the elites sections, meaning possibly Blasterborn upping the anti-tank count, or more splinter cannons if they were tailoring.
Sinful Hero wrote: Not to mention those Blasters in the Venoms are 18" range, and those Void Lances don't come in until turn two at the earliest.
Compare to Tyranids with three tyrants are packing 24 Twinlinked Str 6 shots and three Haywire templates, not counting the rest of the army.
To me, the Deldar list seems really light on effective anti-tank.
Honestly I feel Necrons would do better against Pentyrant than DE now days, Even DE Fliers cant take a Tyrant down. 2 Shots... ok, the tyrant takes a wound.. maybe 2 (cover saves etc...) then 12 TL s6 shots at a flier with AV 10... I wonder who wins lol
Usually I would agree, but this list used Splinter Scourges, effectively bumping up the number of Venom-equivalents. I can see how over-extending the Tyrants and the deployment type can give the tyranid list trouble.
12 sources of poison fire with a minimum of 12 shots per unit, and the Tyrants came into their effective range without threatening the Deldar- it's going to take a heavy toll, especially if they're rolling hot..
Right... and they arnt Relentless, they move 12" then they can only shoot 4 shots at 1/2 distance, just make them move the Scourges for less shots.
You need 84 poison shots to kill a Flyrant. 84 shots will get 14 hits, with a 3+ it should fail 4. (If Malanthrope is near then its even more shots)
Sinful Hero wrote: Not to mention those Blasters in the Venoms are 18" range, and those Void Lances don't come in until turn two at the earliest.
Compare to Tyranids with three tyrants are packing 24 Twinlinked Str 6 shots and three Haywire templates, not counting the rest of the army.
To me, the Deldar list seems really light on effective anti-tank.
Honestly I feel Necrons would do better against Pentyrant than DE now days, Even DE Fliers cant take a Tyrant down. 2 Shots... ok, the tyrant takes a wound.. maybe 2 (cover saves etc...) then 12 TL s6 shots at a flier with AV 10... I wonder who wins lol
Usually I would agree, but this list used Splinter Scourges, effectively bumping up the number of Venom-equivalents. I can see how over-extending the Tyrants and the deployment type can give the tyranid list trouble.
12 sources of poison fire with a minimum of 12 shots per unit, and the Tyrants came into their effective range without threatening the Deldar- it's going to take a heavy toll, especially if they're rolling hot..
Right... and they arnt Relentless, they move 12" then they can only shoot 4 shots at 1/2 distance, just make them move the Scourges for less shots.
You need 84 poison shots to kill a Flyrant. 84 shots will get 14 hits, with a 3+ it should fail 4. (If Malanthrope is near then its even more shots)
Even more. 84 shots is 14 hits. 4+ poison is 7 wounds. 3+ save is only 2 unsaved or so.
12•12=144 shots, minimum. Don't forget several Flyrants moved up trying to blow something up turn one. So it's possible several warrior squads were in rapid fire range, plus when the Flyrants come to them, the scourges don't have to move.
It's not unlikely that the two Flyrants out front could have taken over 250+ shots. 6 Venoms(12+8) at roughly 120 shots, plus 3 Raiders(18+6) at 72, and the 3 Scourge squads(24+6) at 90, is 282. There would not be a Malanthrope nearby in the opponents deployment zone, so a 3+ save is it.
Averaging that's around six wounds? With hot dice(or cold for the Nids) it's not unreasonable to knock out two Flyrants first turn and start picking off the rest later.
Raiders with splinter racks = 22shots at rapid fire range, with twin linked- average hits against flying tyrant is 7.3 per raider squad, 3 squads is 21.9. Lets just round to 22, causes 11 wounds, which on slightly below average rolling for nid saves would kill 1 tyrant a turn.
dont need 250 shots with twin linked. average rolling on anything else in range would take down a 2nd tyrant.
The DE list is light on AT though. It's not something I would expect to see on higher tables in the latter half of a tournament because theres lots of army lists that if it runs into it will not do so well with average rolling. And the more dice you roll the more likely it tends towards average.
Yeah it was a bit tailored, but that's to be expected as he'd played against my list before. I think the only part of his list that would change would be the Scourges going for Haywire rather than Splinter Cannons.
Dark Eldar I think are a tough match up as always for Nids, even with 5 Flyrants. We make short work of their vehicles when we can get there, but they out maneuver us and out gun us, and a a always could give a rats ass about our toughness.
blaktoof wrote: Raiders with splinter racks = 22shots at rapid fire range, with twin linked- average hits against flying tyrant is 7.3 per raider squad, 3 squads is 21.9. Lets just round to 22, causes 11 wounds, which on slightly below average rolling for nid saves would kill 1 tyrant a turn.
dont need 250 shots with twin linked. average rolling on anything else in range would take down a 2nd tyrant.
The DE list is light on AT though. It's not something I would expect to see on higher tables in the latter half of a tournament because theres lots of army lists that if it runs into it will not do so well with average rolling. And the more dice you roll the more likely it tends towards average.
With a 24" move and a 18" range shot why would you get within 12" of a raider?
blaktoof wrote: Raiders with splinter racks = 22shots at rapid fire range, with twin linked- average hits against flying tyrant is 7.3 per raider squad, 3 squads is 21.9. Lets just round to 22, causes 11 wounds, which on slightly below average rolling for nid saves would kill 1 tyrant a turn.
dont need 250 shots with twin linked. average rolling on anything else in range would take down a 2nd tyrant.
The DE list is light on AT though. It's not something I would expect to see on higher tables in the latter half of a tournament because theres lots of army lists that if it runs into it will not do so well with average rolling. And the more dice you roll the more likely it tends towards average.
With a 24" move and a 18" range shot why would you get within 12" of a raider?
Trying to blow them up of course. Plus if the warriors are shooting snapshots anyway might as well move 12" to get in rapid fire range. Trying to stay away 24" from three Raiders can be difficult when you're moving up to take something out. Don't forget this was also Hammer and Anvil Deployment- the table would only be 48" wide, and a Raider in the center of their deployment can cover most of their entire deployment zone and then some.
blaktoof wrote: Raiders with splinter racks = 22shots at rapid fire range, with twin linked- average hits against flying tyrant is 7.3 per raider squad, 3 squads is 21.9. Lets just round to 22, causes 11 wounds, which on slightly below average rolling for nid saves would kill 1 tyrant a turn.
dont need 250 shots with twin linked. average rolling on anything else in range would take down a 2nd tyrant.
The DE list is light on AT though. It's not something I would expect to see on higher tables in the latter half of a tournament because theres lots of army lists that if it runs into it will not do so well with average rolling. And the more dice you roll the more likely it tends towards average.
With a 24" move and a 18" range shot why would you get within 12" of a raider?
Trying to blow them up of course. Plus if the warriors are shooting snapshots anyway might as well move 12" to get in rapid fire range. Trying to stay away 24" from three Raiders can be difficult when you're moving up to take something out. Don't forget this was also Hammer and Anvil Deployment- the table would only be 48" wide, and a Raider in the center of their deployment can cover most of their entire deployment zone and then some.
I wasn't watching the game, but there could be lots of reasons this happened, board positioning on nids part, nid wanted to go for objective near Dark Eldar, wanted early firstblood, nid wanted mass destruction with e grubs, nid player was feeling bold...who knows?
The rapidfire range for dark eldar is 12" and the vehicle can go 12" and passengers can still fire snap shots, if there are splinter racks they get twin linked which equates to about a 30% hit rate. 24" return threat means you cannot really avoid it, since twin linked devs are 18", if you are in range to shoot them they are in range to shoot you. Best to hope for is positioning so they have to limit how much they can bring to bear.
blaktoof wrote: Raiders with splinter racks = 22shots at rapid fire range, with twin linked- average hits against flying tyrant is 7.3 per raider squad, 3 squads is 21.9. Lets just round to 22, causes 11 wounds, which on slightly below average rolling for nid saves would kill 1 tyrant a turn.
dont need 250 shots with twin linked. average rolling on anything else in range would take down a 2nd tyrant.
The DE list is light on AT though. It's not something I would expect to see on higher tables in the latter half of a tournament because theres lots of army lists that if it runs into it will not do so well with average rolling. And the more dice you roll the more likely it tends towards average.
With a 24" move and a 18" range shot why would you get within 12" of a raider?
Trying to blow them up of course. Plus if the warriors are shooting snapshots anyway might as well move 12" to get in rapid fire range. Trying to stay away 24" from three Raiders can be difficult when you're moving up to take something out. Don't forget this was also Hammer and Anvil Deployment- the table would only be 48" wide, and a Raider in the center of their deployment can cover most of their entire deployment zone and then some.
I wasn't watching the game, but there could be lots of reasons this happened, board positioning on nids part, nid wanted to go for objective near Dark Eldar, wanted early firstblood, nid wanted mass destruction with e grubs, nid player was feeling bold...who knows?
The rapidfire range for dark eldar is 12" and the vehicle can go 12" and passengers can still fire snap shots, if there are splinter racks they get twin linked which equates to about a 30% hit rate. 24" return threat means you cannot really avoid it, since twin linked devs are 18", if you are in range to shoot them they are in range to shoot you. Best to hope for is positioning so they have to limit how much they can bring to bear.
They're firing snap shots anyway to hit the Flyrant, why wouldn't you move the full 12"? Their effective range is 24" compared to the 18" range of the Devourers, so in order to hit the Raiders with the Flyrants you need to be in that rapid fire range, sad fact of life.
tag8833 wrote: So, LVO finally released their FAQ. 3 Rules changes blew up the list I had been practicing with.
1) Tyrannocytes shoot like vehicles with hull mounted weapons
2) Void Shields extend to all models in a unit, not just those in range of the shield.
3) Tank Traps are ignored by walkers and super heavy walkers. (WTF?)
I'm headed to the event, and so I've got to go back to the drawing board for my list. I imagine I'm the most affected player in this thread, but figured I'd mention it.
where did they post this? can't find it on FLG's site or on the LVO thread here. i only care b/c i'm west coast myself and our guys tend to want to follow bao/lvo's rules. can't make the event myself.
Tarnag wrote: So I had a handful of games last night testing different things, one of which I used the Pentyrant list against a matchup I thought would be a nightmare for it: Venom Spam Dark Eldar.
Spoiler:
His list (not gonna be exact):
Urien Rakarth
3 Raiders with Splinter Racks full of Warriors with Splinter Cannons
3 squads of 6 Scourges with Splinter Cannons
6 Venoms
2 Void Ravens
(probably missing something)
My list:
CAD:
2 Flyrants w/ Devourers and Egrubs (1 with Fighter Ace)
3 Lictors
3 squads of 3 Rippers with Deep Strike
Bastion w/ Comms Relay
Mawloc
Leviathan:
3 Flyrants w/ Devourers and Egrubs
Venomthrope
3 Mucolids
So we played the ETC missions, rolled Big Guns Never Tire, a Maelstrom secondary (honestly don't remember which one), and Hammer and Anvil deployment (which I think was my death sentence). I got the first turn and deployed first at the edge of my deployment zone inside a ruin with the Bastion out front, he measured my out and deployed out of my range (or so he thought), but with three of the Flyrants I rolled Onslaught so I could reach out and get to him (or so I thought). I failed to run far enough with two of the three Flyrants, and in his return fire I lost two of them to massed poisoned fire. The rest of the game he proceeded to pick the Flyrants off at a clip of about one a turn, and he won pretty handily.
Despite my bad luck in deployment and run rolls, I feel like this is an exceedingly bad matchup for the Pentyrant list. Just the weight of twin linked poisoned fire is incredibly hard for Tyranids anyway, but they've got the weight of fire to take down the lower wound count of the Pentyrants quite well.
Is this as bad a matchup as I think it is? Or am I more the victim of a bad deployment and my own over-aggression?
I don't think that it is a matter of a bad matchup. I think he just out-played you. Sometimes, you have to set yourself up for your alpha-strike, even if it means waiting for a turn.
Some observations on my part.
1. Did you remember that FMC's run 2D6"? In H&A deployment, you are 72"-24" = 48" away from his board edge. Flyrants have a 24"+18" = 42" threat range. That means you can get to within 6" of his board edge with your shooting. Even if you run the minimum of 2", that means there is only about 4" of deployment space where he could have safely deployed away from your guns, and that is only if you run the minimum of 2" on 2D6". It's just not very easy for him to deploy all of those tanks away from your threat range on T1.
2. However, in the case that he did manage to deploy completely out of range (there's only 2 places where he could have done this - in the 2 corners of this deployment edge), then it's easily something that you could anticipate if you've got the experience. In H&A deployment where I knew my opponent could potentially deploy outside of my threat range, this is what I would have done:
I would have deployed my flyrants back just slightly (while deploying my bastion as far forwards as possible). Then on my T1, I would swoop all of my flyrants forwards but still keep them in bastion/malanthrope bubble range. Only the back of their bases needs to be within range, so that the model is actuall 6"+2.5" = 8.5" out. So now you've got flying flyrants with 2+ jink cover. You know how many shots it would have taken just to take off 1W against a swooping flyrant with 2+ jink? 72 shots. That's right, 72 shots just to cause 1W!?!
Then next turn, hit his army with everything you've got. You should be able to take out 3-4 skimmers/venoms a turn on average.
3. Don't forget, on T2 when you go hyper-aggressive with your flyrants, you should also have your mawloc and lictors hitting his line as well. If his skimmers are out of your threat range on T1, then most likely they are bunched up and just ripe for a mawloc attack. Lictors with their S6 shooting is also a threat to their glass boats. So on his Turn 2, there's just no way that he could focus his army completely on your flyrants. He has to deal with the "local" threat as well or they will wreck his skimmers with assault. Use your support units to support your offense. They're not just for grabbing objectives. Lictors and the mawloc are actually real threats to his army.
I think that with a little more experience with a Pentyrant list, you're going to find that it isn't really as bad a matchup for Tyranids as you'd think when going up against DE. Now I am not saying it would be an easy battle, especially against a list that was slightly tailored, but even still, I believe that Pentyrant should still give a tailored DE army problems. Now going back to the "real" 40K world, that type of DE list should never exist as a TAC list. It'll just get demolished in competitive play by the likes of mechdar or AV13 Necrons, which is much more prevalent than Pentyrant Tyranids. Thus, going into competitive play, a Pentyrant list shouldn't see armies tailored to such a degree. The chances of that happening is extremely low (unless your opponent knows that there are no mechdar/mech-spam players in their meta).
gigasnail wrote: where did they post this? can't find it on FLG's site or on the LVO thread here. i only care b/c i'm west coast myself and our guys tend to want to follow bao/lvo's rules. can't make the event myself.
As I said upthread, I think they did a generally good job of it. There are still quite a few outstanding issues, but there will always be some.
There is some interesting stuff about Harradins and Hierophants, even though both are banned (rightfully) at LVO.
I played Dark Eldar tonight. Brought in 3 Pyrovores in a Tyrannocyte. 3D6 wounding on 2's with no saves is a pretty effective way to empty out a raider.
I've got an incredibly specific rules question in regards to the new LVOfaq. Dreadnoughts can stay embarked in Lucious Pattern Drop pods on the turn they arrive. Because it is open topped, we would prefer that as E.Grubs will toast a dread, but if it isn't E.Grubs, what armor facing is hit by a flame template placed over a Lucious Pattern Drop Pod with an embarked Dreadnought?
gigasnail wrote: where did they post this? can't find it on FLG's site or on the LVO thread here. i only care b/c i'm west coast myself and our guys tend to want to follow bao/lvo's rules. can't make the event myself.
As I said upthread, I think they did a generally good job of it. There are still quite a few outstanding issues, but there will always be some.
There is some interesting stuff about Harradins and Hierophants, even though both are banned (rightfully) at LVO.
I played Dark Eldar tonight. Brought in 3 Pyrovores in a Tyrannocyte. 3D6 wounding on 2's with no saves is a pretty effective way to empty out a raider.
I've got an incredibly specific rules question in regards to the new LVOfaq. Dreadnoughts can stay embarked in Lucious Pattern Drop pods on the turn they arrive. Because it is open topped, we would prefer that as E.Grubs will toast a dread, but if it isn't E.Grubs, what armor facing is hit by a flame template placed over a Lucious Pattern Drop Pod with an embarked Dreadnought?
as per the no escape rule you do not get the weapons full profile
it causes the unit to suffer d6 hits at the weapons strength and ap.
It doesn't have permission to use the special rules of the weapon- because no escape is essentially a special rule itself telling us that the embarked unit takes d6hits with str of weapon and ap of weapon. If it said d6 hits with the profile of the weapon haywire would be included but it does not, so the haywire part would not effect the embarked unit. :(
I posted a 1000pt list over in the List subforum, if anyone would be kind enough to give me some advice.
I've got a few points left over, and I'd like a little feedback on my unit choices.
1850 Jy2's Farsight-bomb Tau vs Commander_Farsight's Hive Fleet Pandora
Jamie, aka Commander_Farsight, is the youngest and also the newest member of our club, Team 0 Comp. He's also been in a major slump ever since making the team, and I am talking about a big losing streak. He normally runs the Farsight-bomb but has yet to beat Tyranids run by one of the better players (including me) with it (I believe he is 0-6 against bugs with Tau!!!). He also has not been able to beat any of the other team members with his Tau. At this point, he is getting very frustrated, to the point that he wanted to dump his Tau and just start all over again.
So he was reaching out for some help (on Facebook) and I told him that all he needs is some coaching from a veteran player. His army is actually good but because the people he normally plays against aren't really very competitive players, it's just hard for him to get better. So when he goes to play against a more savvy and experienced general (or an army he's not familiar with), he's not experienced enough to know how to play against it. He may be a shark in his little pond, but he's just a little fish in a big ocean. In order for him to get better, he needs to learn how to hunt in the ocean. But his army has all the tools to hang with the "big boys". All he really needs is a little coaching and then some seasoning. I told him that I'll prove it to him. We'll do an army swap. He can play my Tyranids which he has never beaten and I will play his Tau. Then hopefully, I can show him that his army isn't bad (it's actually quite damn good if you know how to run it properly).
I just hope my bark isn't louder than my bite. It'll be quite demoralizing for him (and embarrassing for me!) if I actually lost with his Tau against my Tyranids.
I actually designed the list for my opponent using the Leviathan detachment along with the SkyTyrant formation. Not quite as OP as my Pentyrant list, but still a very strong army IMO.
Flyrant - Reaper of Obliterax, Electroshock Grubs, Old Adversary
15x Gargoyles
14x Gargoyles
1850 Tau + Tau Allies
For Jamie's Farsight-bomb, I actually modified his list slightly. I dropped the 3rd riptide and instead, added the unit of Tetras (because they're my newly painted models) as well as 1 skyray (proxied using the hammerhead) to show him what a great value the skyray is. Also, an important change in the list is that I ran a Buffmander (Tau Commander with gadgets) instead of the Buffsuit (bodyguard suit with gadgets) that Jamie normally runs.
BTW, after re-calculating my list, I found that it was slightly over. That can easily be changed by dropping 1 marker drone or an upgrade (such as disruption pods on the skyray or 1 upgrade on the Buffmander).
Riptide - Heavy Burst Cannon, TL-SMS, Skyfire
Riptide - Ion Accelerator, TL-SMS, Skyfire, Interceptor
10x Kroots
10x Kroots
2x Tetras - Disruption Pods
Skyray - Disruption Pod
Tau Allies: (Note - self-allies legal with the BAO/ITC format)
Shadowsun
10x Kroots
By the ways, I just got a couple of Tau models painted by Frontline Gaming and just wanted to show them off. It's the riptide and the 2 tetras. They did a great job on them.
If you're interested in their paint services, you can contact them here:
1. Hold either Objective 1.
2. Hold either Objective 2.
3. Destroy an enemy unit.
4. Destroy an enemy unit.
5. Have a scoring unit at least partially within the enemy deployment zone.
6. Have at least 3 of your scoring units and no enemy scoring units at least partially within your own deployment zone.
Tertiary Objectives: First Blood, Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, 1-pt each
For those not familiar, the Farsight-bomb....actually, the Farsun-bomb....is probably one of the 2 most dangerous shooting deathstars in the game currently (with the other one being the Centstar). Back in the previous edition - 6th Edition - this deathstar was the quintessential shooting deathstar. It's got so many fundamentally-breaking mechanisms in it that it became one of the most feared deathstars in the game at the time. So why is it so dangerous?
1. With my build, I've got potentially 8 S8 AP1 melta shots and 14 S6 AP2 shots.
2. All the shots are twin-linked and can either re-roll wounds against MC's (Monster Hunter) or armor pen against vehicles (Tank Hunter).
3. All of the shots ignore cover.
4. My deathstar also packs BS5 twin-linked marker drones that can be used to support the rest of the army.
5. Unlike other shooty deathstars, this unit can split-fire to shoot at potentially 7-8 different targets. Thus, it can easily kill multiple units a turn.
6. The unit has got Shroud for some 2+ cover shenanigans in ruins.
7. The unit is potentially Stubborn so is not so easily destroyed in combat.
8. With Hit-&-Run and Initiative 5 (Farsight), it isn't easy to lock it in combat.
9. The unit has super mobility. It moves 6" in the Movement Phase, shoots in the Shooting Phase and then can potentially move 3D6" again in the Assault Phase.
10. You can split the unit off on Turn 5 to potentially grab/contest 4 different objectives if you wanted to.
It is a really good deathstar and extremely dangerous.
As for the rest of the army, I've got 3 sources of skyfire to deal with the flyrants - both riptides and the skyray. Now that isn't actually a lot, but if the deathstar contributes to the shooting, I believe it should be able to reliably take down 1 or 2 flyrants a turn.
The main weakness of my list is probably the troops. Kroots are quite fragile and Jamie should know not to put the objectives on the outer flanks for them to come in and grab (assuming they outflank). Flyrants can very easily deal with them.
Tyranids:
3 flyrants and the Skytyrant is going to be a lot for Tau to handle. If there is a weakness about the Tau deathstar, it is that it isn't great against massed flyers. Also, the Skytyrant formation is just too dangerous for the Tau to ignore. They will have to focus on it initially, which could give the flyrants potentially 2 turns to shoot at the Tau units before they can concentrate on taking down the FMC's.
As the Tau player, I actually won the roll to go 1st. However, I decided to give Tyranids the 1st turn. Now that is a risky gambit on my part, but I really wanted the final say in an objectives mission. That means the Tyrands will get 36 TL-S6 shots off before I can even do anything. This could either end up being a very good move on my part or a disaster in the making. We will find out soon enough.
Besides the FMC's, Tyranids also have 2 very dangerous weapons - the mawlocs. In my last 2 games of against Jamie's Tau, I really wrecked his army and that was with just 1 mawloc. In this battle, he is running 2. If they hit, that could really mess up my deathstar. The mawlocs may potentially be the x-factor here that could very well turn the tide of the game if they both land on target (and if both comes in at the same time). We will see just how much of an impact they will have on this game.
I think that in a straight-up matchup between 2 equally experienced generals, the Tyranids will have a slight advantage in this game. HOWEVER, the experience level between the generals in this game is NOT equal. I have a huge experience edge over my opponent. We are both playing armies that we are both not very familiar with. However, I am a much more tactical player than my opponent at this point and have played against a lot more competitive players/games than he has. Thus, I expect to be able to out-play him in this game. And for his sake, I hope I do too, because if I, the much more experienced player, were to lose to him with his army, that would strike a big blow to his already fragile rapport with his army. I really don't want to be the last straw that will make my opponent quit the army. As a result, I don't just want to win. I want to destroy my opponent using his army. Then maybe he'll see that his army is actually pretty darn good.
Tarnag wrote: So I had a handful of games last night testing different things, one of which I used the Pentyrant list against a matchup I thought would be a nightmare for it: Venom Spam Dark Eldar.
Spoiler:
His list (not gonna be exact):
Urien Rakarth
3 Raiders with Splinter Racks full of Warriors with Splinter Cannons
3 squads of 6 Scourges with Splinter Cannons
6 Venoms
2 Void Ravens
(probably missing something)
My list:
CAD:
2 Flyrants w/ Devourers and Egrubs (1 with Fighter Ace)
3 Lictors
3 squads of 3 Rippers with Deep Strike
Bastion w/ Comms Relay
Mawloc
Leviathan:
3 Flyrants w/ Devourers and Egrubs
Venomthrope
3 Mucolids
So we played the ETC missions, rolled Big Guns Never Tire, a Maelstrom secondary (honestly don't remember which one), and Hammer and Anvil deployment (which I think was my death sentence). I got the first turn and deployed first at the edge of my deployment zone inside a ruin with the Bastion out front, he measured my out and deployed out of my range (or so he thought), but with three of the Flyrants I rolled Onslaught so I could reach out and get to him (or so I thought). I failed to run far enough with two of the three Flyrants, and in his return fire I lost two of them to massed poisoned fire. The rest of the game he proceeded to pick the Flyrants off at a clip of about one a turn, and he won pretty handily.
Despite my bad luck in deployment and run rolls, I feel like this is an exceedingly bad matchup for the Pentyrant list. Just the weight of twin linked poisoned fire is incredibly hard for Tyranids anyway, but they've got the weight of fire to take down the lower wound count of the Pentyrants quite well.
Is this as bad a matchup as I think it is? Or am I more the victim of a bad deployment and my own over-aggression?
I don't think that it is a matter of a bad matchup. I think he just out-played you. Sometimes, you have to set yourself up for your alpha-strike, even if it means waiting for a turn.
Some observations on my part.
1. Did you remember that FMC's run 2D6"? In H&A deployment, you are 72"-24" = 48" away from his board edge. Flyrants have a 24"+18" = 42" threat range. That means you can get to within 6" of his board edge with your shooting. Even if you run the minimum of 2", that means there is only about 4" of deployment space where he could have safely deployed away from your guns, and that is only if you run the minimum of 2" on 2D6". It's just not very easy for him to deploy all of those tanks away from your threat range on T1.
2. However, in the case that he did manage to deploy completely out of range (there's only 2 places where he could have done this - in the 2 corners of this deployment edge), then it's easily something that you could anticipate if you've got the experience. In H&A deployment where I knew my opponent could potentially deploy outside of my threat range, this is what I would have done:
I would have deployed my flyrants back just slightly (while deploying my bastion as far forwards as possible). Then on my T1, I would swoop all of my flyrants forwards but still keep them in bastion/malanthrope bubble range. Only the back of their bases needs to be within range, so that the model is actuall 6"+2.5" = 8.5" out. So now you've got flying flyrants with 2+ jink cover. You know how many shots it would have taken just to take off 1W against a swooping flyrant with 2+ jink? 72 shots. That's right, 72 shots just to cause 1W!?!
Then next turn, hit his army with everything you've got. You should be able to take out 3-4 skimmers/venoms a turn on average.
3. Don't forget, on T2 when you go hyper-aggressive with your flyrants, you should also have your mawloc and lictors hitting his line as well. If his skimmers are out of your threat range on T1, then most likely they are bunched up and just ripe for a mawloc attack. Lictors with their S6 shooting is also a threat to their glass boats. So on his Turn 2, there's just no way that he could focus his army completely on your flyrants. He has to deal with the "local" threat as well or they will wreck his skimmers with assault. Use your support units to support your offense. They're not just for grabbing objectives. Lictors and the mawloc are actually real threats to his army.
I think that with a little more experience with a Pentyrant list, you're going to find that it isn't really as bad a matchup for Tyranids as you'd think when going up against DE. Now I am not saying it would be an easy battle, especially against a list that was slightly tailored, but even still, I believe that Pentyrant should still give a tailored DE army problems. Now going back to the "real" 40K world, that type of DE list should never exist as a TAC list. It'll just get demolished in competitive play by the likes of mechdar or AV13 Necrons, which is much more prevalent than Pentyrant Tyranids. Thus, going into competitive play, a Pentyrant list shouldn't see armies tailored to such a degree. The chances of that happening is extremely low (unless your opponent knows that there are no mechdar/mech-spam players in their meta).
Yeah he deployed second, so while I was deploying in ruins that were slightly behind my deployment zone, he deployed all the way backed up in the opposite corner. I probably should've just basically passed my first turn (or shuffle the Flyrants 12" still within the Venomthrope's bubble) and made him come to me on his first turn rather than put myself into the open. Either that or deployed aggressively in order to play aggressively. Really he won the deployment and I didn't do anything to counteract that.
As to the tailoring of the list, I expected it. My opponent is a guy I regularly play and he's very competitive, and absolutely hates losing. I forced him to concede on turn 3 against this list a few weeks ago with his Vostroyans, and so I think this time he was going to take the biggest punch he could now that he knew the list. I still gave him a hell of a shot but I would've needed to outplay him, and quite frankly I didn't.
They all look good, I think it looks a little better on the riptide because of the curves and rounded bits, though, makes it look sharper somehow than the digital camo on the tetras(?) don't play tau so not sure if that's what they are, but they all look great.
I played my first 750 league game last night - went slightly easier on my list (2 Flyrants, Dakkafex, Mucolids, Rippers, no Mope) and got matched up against a Demon player who didn't have all of his models, so he had a tooled up Demon Prince (warlord) and a tooled up Herald (with some pink horrors for troops)
I went first, had the Infiltrate warlord trait. I basically tabled him on my first turn - Prince died to ID from a Warp Lance, then 36 devourer shots killed almost all of the horrors. He conceded before even getting to move. I felt kind of bad so we played a fun game against his Necrons.
He managed to kill a Flyrant but I killed his bargelord (didn't get back up) and both Flyers he brought (a little lucky, but thems the breaks) along with a unit of immortals.
I knew Flyrants were going to be good at low points, but jeebus.
They all look good, I think it looks a little better on the riptide because of the curves and rounded bits, though, makes it look sharper somehow than the digital camo on the tetras(?) don't play tau so not sure if that's what they are, but they all look great.
Thanks. The tetras and riptide were painted by the guys at Frontline and I really liked how they turned out. I have a small Tau force, not enough to run an army but rather, to run as allies.
rigeld2 wrote: I played my first 750 league game last night - went slightly easier on my list (2 Flyrants, Dakkafex, Mucolids, Rippers, no Mope) and got matched up against a Demon player who didn't have all of his models, so he had a tooled up Demon Prince (warlord) and a tooled up Herald (with some pink horrors for troops)
I went first, had the Infiltrate warlord trait. I basically tabled him on my first turn - Prince died to ID from a Warp Lance, then 36 devourer shots killed almost all of the horrors. He conceded before even getting to move. I felt kind of bad so we played a fun game against his Necrons.
He managed to kill a Flyrant but I killed his bargelord (didn't get back up) and both Flyers he brought (a little lucky, but thems the breaks) along with a unit of immortals.
I knew Flyrants were going to be good at low points, but jeebus.
Yeah, 2 flyrants at anything less than 1K is not being nice.
Something I wanted to open up for discussion, how viable could you guys see the "Sporefield" formation being? It's 3 Mucolids and 3 Spore Mine Clusters that gain infiltrate and may respawn on a 4+ like Skyblight Gargoyles. I for one see it actually being quite good at swamping a gunline with Targets. With 6 different units deepstriking in, enemies will have to either move away from them or target them, either way it will cause a lot of disruption in a gunline, and if nothing else they are certainly good at filling points if you're not sure what to take. Quite frankly I think that the Sporefield is worth it's points in Biovores. I'm also thinking it may even be worth it to upgrade the size of a unit. For 10 points, a 3 man spore squad becomes 5 man and is now more likely to survive overwatch at a higher strength, and if it does make it in unharmed is now strength 8 large blast, enough to worry vehicles and ID many units.
Right now I'm deciding between a pair of lists for an RTT, and the Sporefield is a tempting option.
jifel wrote: Something I wanted to open up for discussion, how viable could you guys see the "Sporefield" formation being? It's 3 Mucolids and 3 Spore Mine Clusters that gain infiltrate and may respawn on a 4+ like Skyblight Gargoyles. I for one see it actually being quite good at swamping a gunline with Targets. With 6 different units deepstriking in, enemies will have to either move away from them or target them, either way it will cause a lot of disruption in a gunline, and if nothing else they are certainly good at filling points if you're not sure what to take. Quite frankly I think that the Sporefield is worth it's points in Biovores. I'm also thinking it may even be worth it to upgrade the size of a unit. For 10 points, a 3 man spore squad becomes 5 man and is now more likely to survive overwatch at a higher strength, and if it does make it in unharmed is now strength 8 large blast, enough to worry vehicles and ID many units.
Right now I'm deciding between a pair of lists for an RTT, and the Sporefield is a tempting option.
Thoughts on the Sporefield?
I LOVE IT, for 90pts.. yeah its amazing.
I ordered 2 boxes of Spore from FW just wating for them to come in, play tested it a few times.
I start them on the table for cover saves, sense they have shrouded and are 3 wounds I but them for cover away from venoms/malanthrope (with the bugs that can make the 6" bubble)
Once they die, I DS them right behind something, like a tank/heavy unit etc..., which will force them to turn and shoot or move out of position.. just amazing 90pt unit. Even if only 2 (one of each type) comes back, its still worth it.
The biggest thing that's making this a tough choice is that I don't have the official models for the Tyrannocytes yet, and the models I've used as proxies (my two old Spores converted to be off the ground) look pretty ugly.
Hi everyone!
I'm going to participate to a local tourney (1800 pts, 1 CAD, no allies, no FW, no bastion, 2 flying MC or aircrafts max) in France with my nids.
Can you give me some advise (target priority, units to avoid or whatever) against:
- necrons (even if I read Jy2's reports with and against)
- chaos daemons (SITW is my best friend but what else?)
- dark eldars (have you played against the new ones?)
My list will be like that:
2 flyrants w/ egrubs
1 tervigon
30 gants
2 zoanthropes (2 units)
1 venomthrope
2 dakkafex (together)
3 biovores (2 units)
7 raveners (rending claws)
20 gargoyles
14 hormagaunts
Initially I would take my mawloc whether my hormagaunts and some raveners but I have no success with it so I gave up the idea.
Two scenarios are 3 objectives to take and hold, last one is KP based.
Thx
The biggest thing that's making this a tough choice is that I don't have the official models for the Tyrannocytes yet, and the models I've used as proxies (my two old Spores converted to be off the ground) look pretty ugly.
The biggest thing that's making this a tough choice is that I don't have the official models for the Tyrannocytes yet, and the models I've used as proxies (my two old Spores converted to be off the ground) look pretty ugly.
How are you using the Escape hatch?
I haven't yet, but theoretically it will (after turn 2) allow me to throw the Malanthrope upfield into a ruin to support my Fliers. I usually keep them close to home base turn 1, for the Shrouded bubble and then head them upfield when my reserves come in. With a Hatch, I would just end up with the shrouded bubble for an extra turn. unless my opponent tries to target the Mal. And if they do, I'm ok with that as it's less shots than would be at my Fliers, and the Malanthrope no longer has a purpose. Once I get the turn 2 Comms relay reroll it has done what it needs to, as I don't need the backfield synapse much.
jifel wrote: I haven't yet, but theoretically it will (after turn 2) allow me to throw the Malanthrope upfield into a ruin to support my Fliers. I usually keep them close to home base turn 1, for the Shrouded bubble and then head them upfield when my reserves come in. With a Hatch, I would just end up with the shrouded bubble for an extra turn. unless my opponent tries to target the Mal. And if they do, I'm ok with that as it's less shots than would be at my Fliers, and the Malanthrope no longer has a purpose. Once I get the turn 2 Comms relay reroll it has done what it needs to, as I don't need the backfield synapse much.
I like that idea a lot especially with Tyrannocytes. That Tyrannocyte list is similar to what I was testing out for LVO (I had a 2nd Dakkafex instead of TFex). I ended up going with a Barbed Heirodule, but if I had considered the Escape hatch method for getting the Malanthrope upfield, I might have reconsidered.
I wonder how much table time you've got with your TFex in a Tyrannocyte. I always felt like they didn't quite live up to their theory hammer potential except against Dark Eldar.
ETA: I would probably include non-deep striking rippers with that list. They have a low enough profile that they could hang out on top of the bastion out of LOS and man the Comms relay so that the Malanthrope can advance turn 1 if required to aid the Flyrant's ability to alpha strike / Get first blood. Then they could move into the bastion and use the escape hatch of door to get them to an objective.
jifel wrote: I haven't yet, but theoretically it will (after turn 2) allow me to throw the Malanthrope upfield into a ruin to support my Fliers. I usually keep them close to home base turn 1, for the Shrouded bubble and then head them upfield when my reserves come in. With a Hatch, I would just end up with the shrouded bubble for an extra turn. unless my opponent tries to target the Mal. And if they do, I'm ok with that as it's less shots than would be at my Fliers, and the Malanthrope no longer has a purpose. Once I get the turn 2 Comms relay reroll it has done what it needs to, as I don't need the backfield synapse much.
I like that idea a lot especially with Tyrannocytes. That Tyrannocyte list is similar to what I was testing out for LVO (I had a 2nd Dakkafex instead of TFex). I ended up going with a Barbed Heirodule, but if I had considered the Escape hatch method for getting the Malanthrope upfield, I might have reconsidered.
I wonder how much table time you've got with your TFex in a Tyrannocyte. I always felt like they didn't quite live up to their theory hammer potential except against Dark Eldar.
ETA: I would probably include non-deep striking rippers with that list. They have a low enough profile that they could hang out on top of the bastion out of LOS and man the Comms relay so that the Malanthrope can advance turn 1 if required to aid the Flyrant's ability to alpha strike / Get first blood. Then they could move into the bastion and use the escape hatch of door to get them to an objective.
I know the Barbie is good, but I don't own one and think he's a bit expensive honestly, so I try to avoid him. And the TFex in Pod has impressed
me more than my Dakkafex actually... I've used both in 4 games so far, and the TFex has done more in every single one so far. He's just so much tougher that he requires a lot more firepower to take down, where as a Carny dies with relative ease by his own. The extra EGrubs flamed is amazing, and his acid spray still wrecks a lot of infantry. I do think they're both worth it though, because in 4 games I've lost a total of 1 Flyrant and 2 Crones... When those big bugs land, nobody has the firepower to spare to shoot at the FMCs! The TFex is a keeper for sure though, he is just straight nasty against most lists. I like him because he will make Wave Serpents scramble to get away, and it takes a ton if serpent shield shots to take him down. Same goes for Broadsides, as those are two of the worst units for us. If I'm taking Pods, a TFex is the first guy in line to put inside.
On the Comms relay, if I ever had to move the malanthrope upfield early I would just put a Mucolid inside once he leaves, as Comms can be manned from inside the building thanks to Stronghold assault. But I have yet to test the Escape Hatch, even though I expect that it will be gold. My only thought is if it would be better to run 2 Malanthropes to ensure their survival, by hoenstly I think one Malanthrope in ruins is survivable enough, and if its one model people will be more likely to target him, leaving my Flyers free to go!
On the topic of Sporefield, I find it to be really good. It gives you so much board control. You can use it to block movements, to funel units into certain direction, and when the spores start coming back midgame you can get some real work out of them.
Tfex in a pod is also a favorite. Compared to his rival the Dakkafex in most matchups he is slightly worse off but vs eldar, deldar, tau, necrons (not flying ones) he really shines
Edit: Oh and Orks. He really hates on orks in Trukks
I just noticed that in the first page of this thread, both the Zoanthrope and Exocrine have yet to be reviewed! I personally haven't used either of those units in months, but could write on them if needed to. However, would anyone else like to review those two units?
jifel wrote: I just noticed that in the first page of this thread, both the Zoanthrope and Exocrine have yet to be reviewed! I personally haven't used either of those units in months, but could write on them if needed to. However, would anyone else like to review those two units?
Feel free to do so if you wish. I've been busy preparing the for TSHFT GT this weekend. Afterwards, I can continue writing reviews for the units that still need them.
The biggest thing that's making this a tough choice is that I don't have the official models for the Tyrannocytes yet, and the models I've used as proxies (my two old Spores converted to be off the ground) look pretty ugly.
I like both of these...a lot. The "rule of cool" demands you choose the one that is least ugly. I think a pair of Dakkafexen can roll down the center just fine. And if you get Master of Ambush.. With that much air power, and Fexen, even Necrons should be a decent mach up. Vs drop pod style forces, you'll likely use the Dakkafex in your own backfield anyway...so the Tyrannocyte is kinda, not optimal...
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jackyratos wrote: Hi everyone!
I'm going to participate to a local tourney (1800 pts, 1 CAD, no allies, no FW, no bastion, 2 flying MC or aircrafts max) in France with my nids.
Can you give me some advise (target priority, units to avoid or whatever) against:
- necrons (even if I read Jy2's reports with and against)
- chaos daemons (SITW is my best friend but what else?)
- dark eldars (have you played against the new ones?)
My list will be like that:
2 flyrants w/ egrubs
1 tervigon
30 gants
2 zoanthropes (2 units)
1 venomthrope
2 dakkafex (together)
3 biovores (2 units)
Can you take Formations? Because you would really benefit from a Living Artillery Node (LAN) If not, well you certainly have the force nessisary to win some games. It will just be harder, that's all. I would want a screen for the Dakkafexen, but some of that is "style". I also habitually grab Hive Commander, so I can Outflank a Tervigon (when I take one) I also want to put Electro shock Grubs on the Tervigon as well.
Good luck! And good hunting! 7 raveners (rending claws)
20 gargoyles
14 hormagaunts
Initially I would take my mawloc whether my hormagaunts and some raveners but I have no success with it so I gave up the idea.
Two scenarios are 3 objectives to take and hold, last one is KP based.
Thx
First test yesterday: is has been hard against Slannesh daemons with 2 Soulgrinders, 1 unkillable DP (3+, FnP, +1W, IWND, psy lvl 3 in biomancy,) I even killed last turn, 60 daemonnettes, 20 hounds and 1 LoS.
I did it but it was harder than I thought. Maybe should I take an exocrine instead of the biovores (bad scattering...).
I would like to split the fexes, what do you think about?
First test yesterday: is has been hard against Slannesh daemons with 2 Soulgrinders, 1 unkillable DP (3+, FnP, +1W, IWND, psy lvl 3 in biomancy,) I even killed last turn, 60 daemonnettes, 20 hounds and 1 LoS.
I did it but it was harder than I thought. Maybe should I take an exocrine instead of the biovores (bad scattering...).
I would like to split the fexes, what do you think about?
Yeah, the LAN lets you re roll scatter, splitting the Fexen is a good plan, it lets you apply power in two locations, and you don't have to worry about them nipping at each other. If you split them take a serious look at adding a screen for them, and some Synapse/Shrouding, so you can get good synergy. I like to use what I call a "Bug Star" of a MC, a screen of Hormagaunts, a Synapse (Zoey, or a x3 Brood of Warriors) and a Veno if available. It is not a full on Deathstar, but it is dang functional.
I really love Mawloc, but if you have dice rolling problems, you may be well served to avoid her. Annother Big Bug I really like is Tyrannofex, Acid Spray, Thorax: Electro grubs...I usually put Adrenal Glands on so I can put more forward pressure on. It deletes Troops with fearsome efficientcy, and is almost unkillable. It tends to draw huge amounts of fire, letting the rest of the Swarm do it's job in peace. The screen, and Shroud lets you take massed Anti-tank fire without vanishing in a cloud of ichor.
My own experience has been that I win almost every game in which Tyranno dies. So much fire gets dedicated, that the rest of my force can rampage.
The heart of the army consists with a screen of gaunts, a tervigon and the fexen behind and the venom on the back.
On one flank are the gagoyles and a zoey, on the other the raveners with the other one. The tyrants are in the shrouded area or behind BLoS terrains on each flank.
I'm wondering if the tervigon worth it or shall I prefer more gaunts and a zoey?
jackyratos wrote: The heart of the army consists with a screen of gaunts, a tervigon and the fexen behind and the venom on the back.
On one flank are the gagoyles and a zoey, on the other the raveners with the other one. The tyrants are in the shrouded area or behind BLoS terrains on each flank.
I'm wondering if the tervigon worth it or shall I prefer more gaunts and a zoey?
well tervigons can give you more gaunts so... tough call..
yeah, it is pretty much a "style" thing. Tervigon is just a little over priced, so it is hard to justify taking it. But it can be very useful. I like to Outflank it, when I do take one, so it can smash the backfield. It can spawn it's own screen, and I always give it a Thorax hive, so it is too dangerous to ignore. And by Outflanking I can hide from a Pod full of Sternguard, or the like. If they do drop down on her, she is in the foes backfield instead of mine.
I played Tau tonight. 1st time ever I've lost 3 FMCs in a single turn at 1850. 2 Flyrants and a Crone all died on turn 2 when I failed 5 of 6 3+ armor saves and 4 Feel No Pains. A skyfire burstide killed a full wound Flyrant with feel no pain. Buffmander's suites killed my last flyrant which had 3 wounds, and the 2nd Skyfire burstide annihilated a crone with markerlight support. It was a blood bath. Buffmander's suites took out barbie on turn 3, and I conceded heading into a turn 4 tabling. I didn't think my 5 remaining rippers stood much a chance against his whole army minus the 4 marker light I managed to kill.
So, quick theoretical question - can a unit of Tyrant guard join a skytyrant swarm? Can they join it once all the gargoyles have died? Not that I'm ever likely to try this, but it's something I'd been wondering about.
tag8833 wrote: I played Tau tonight. 1st time ever I've lost 3 FMCs in a single turn at 1850. 2 Flyrants and a Crone all died on turn 2 when I failed 5 of 6 3+ armor saves and 4 Feel No Pains. A skyfire burstide killed a full wound Flyrant with feel no pain. Buffmander's suites killed my last flyrant which had 3 wounds, and the 2nd Skyfire burstide annihilated a crone with markerlight support. It was a blood bath. Buffmander's suites took out barbie on turn 3, and I conceded heading into a turn 4 tabling. I didn't think my 5 remaining rippers stood much a chance against his whole army minus the 4 marker light I managed to kill.
Gadzooks, and I thought my rolling was terrible. Sounds like the hive mind ignored you.
Hello everybody! I posted on this forum a few times before and I had come up with some relatively decent lists but then life happened and I had things to do. Now I'm back and it seems that the meta has shifted towards the Tyranids significantly. They've even won some tournaments! Anyways, I was wondering if those lists were still viable or if there were any ways to make them better.
HQ: 480pts
-Standard Flyrant
-Standard Flyrant
Elites: 340pts
Malanthrope
Malanthrope 2x
Malanthrope
Troops: 680pts
Termagants 170x (5 units of 30 and 1 unit of 20)
-1500
The obvious idea behind this list is to swarm the objectives and score points while simultaneously not let your opponents score any. The two Flyrants speed ahead and focus down threats to the malanthropes/termagants depending on the situation and the malanthropes just hide in cover giving themselves a 2+ cover save and the termagants a cover save as well. I figure that at 1500 points there's not a whole lot that can take down 170 termagants in time. The only problem is the lack of anti AV 13 plus.
HQ: 470pts
Standard Hive Tyrant
Standard Hive Tyrant (minus the E-grubs)
Troops: 90pts
Rippers x3 (deepstrike)
Rippers x3 (deepstrike)
Fast Attack: 310pts
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Skyblight: 875pts
Standard Hive Tyrant (minus e-grubs)
Hive Crone
Harpy
Harpy
Gargoyle x10
Gargoyle x10
Gargolye x10
I would use this army when playing the old game types (not these new card/dice based objectives.) I went with the bare minimum on the troops to save points for the FMC's. My thoughts are that there aren't too many not-tailored lists out there that can deal with 8 FMC's. They wouldn't do to well for objective scoring but I feel like they would kill very effectively.
So what do you guys think could make these better? What are their issues?
I also have some questions; what's flyer ace? I've seen a lot of them as upgrades for flyrants but I don't know what the actual rule for it is. I really like the Tervigon, ripper swarm, lictor, and zoanthrope models! Are those units at all competitive? Do you think there's any way to make them competitive?
Boburrito wrote: Hello everybody! I posted on this forum a few times before and I had come up with some relatively decent lists but then life happened and I had things to do. Now I'm back and it seems that the meta has shifted towards the Tyranids significantly. They've even won some tournaments! Anyways, I was wondering if those lists were still viable or if there were any ways to make them better. HQ: 480pts -Standard Flyrant -Standard Flyrant Elites: 340pts Malanthrope Malanthrope 2x Malanthrope Troops: 680pts Termagants 170x (5 units of 30 and 1 unit of 20) -1500 The obvious idea behind this list is to swarm the objectives and score points while simultaneously not let your opponents score any. The two Flyrants speed ahead and focus down threats to the malanthropes/termagants depending on the situation and the malanthropes just hide in cover giving themselves a 2+ cover save and the termagants a cover save as well. I figure that at 1500 points there's not a whole lot that can take down 170 termagants in time. The only problem is the lack of anti AV 13 plus. HQ: 470pts Standard Hive Tyrant Standard Hive Tyrant (minus the E-grubs) Troops: 90pts Rippers x3 (deepstrike) Rippers x3 (deepstrike) Fast Attack: 310pts Hive Crone Hive Crone Skyblight: 875pts Standard Hive Tyrant (minus e-grubs) Hive Crone Harpy Harpy Gargoyle x10 Gargoyle x10 Gargolye x10 I would use this army when playing the old game types (not these new card/dice based objectives.) I went with the bare minimum on the troops to save points for the FMC's. My thoughts are that there aren't too many not-tailored lists out there that can deal with 8 FMC's. They wouldn't do to well for objective scoring but I feel like they would kill very effectively. So what do you guys think could make these better? What are their issues? I also have some questions; what's flyer ace? I've seen a lot of them as upgrades for flyrants but I don't know what the actual rule for it is. I really like the Tervigon, ripper swarm, lictor, and zoanthrope models! Are those units at all competitive? Do you think there's any way to make them competitive?
Both lists look quite viable. I would probaly change the first list, maybe remove a unit of Termagants or two for some Carnifexes with TLDevs, for more AT. A Tervigon would also be quite handy with EGrubs and Crushing Claws (and you could pump out a ton of attacks with Counter-Attack on the mass Termagants). Second list has been proven at the top level, wouldn't change too much.
Flyer Ace is a set of rules found in Shield of Baal, Leviathan. You can only take one Flyer Ace in an army (although it is debated). If you do, you get to roll on a table which gives your Flyer Ace bonuses. Each faction has it's own table to roll on and the Tyranid one is very good in comparison to other tables.
An overview of each unit can be found in the OP (aside Zoanthropes, which are being done IIRC), as well as how competitive the community thinks they are.
Speaking of... Seems like a fairly short review to me, but I'd appreciate any input to add to beef it up if needed.
Zoanthrope
The Zoanthrope is a Psychic Tyranid creature, coming in with Mastery Level 2 and a stock 3++ invulnerable save. With a single model brood(can be taken up to six models), this is the cheapest form of Synapse available to Tyranids, and the cheapest Psyker to boot. The Zoanthrope works best as a backfield unit, providing synapse , Warpcharge, and potentially buffing Psychic powers to it's fellow Tyranids.
1. The Zope is fairly cheap for what it is. Fairly durable, with psychic support to assist other units.
2. At Mastery level 2, the Zope adds psychic dice to your pool at a fair price.
3. The Zope comes stock with Dominion and Warp Blast, meaning it has both a buffing power(longer synapse range), and an offensive power for when things get too close.
4. Unfortunately the Zope is slow- it has neither fleet not a fast movement speed. On the other hand, it relies totally on Psychic powers meaning it can always to choose to run during the shooting phase, hopefully allowing it to keep up with a more aggressive unit.
The Zope has the potential to roll for a variety of powers, which can sometimes drastically change it's effective role in a list besides baby-sitting. Rolling Catalyst or Onslaught reinforces the Zope's role as a buff/backfield support unit. Paroxysm or The Horror can give the Zope a debuff role*. Psychic Scream let's the Zope take on a more offensive role*. The latter two are not considered ideal uses of the unit, because of the inherent fickle nature of Psychic powers. Manifest, roll to hit, roll to wound(if applicable), take saves(if applicable), and getting through Deny the Witch are usually too many checks to successfully make use of the offensive psychic powers.
*Note: Usually the Zope can perform these roles best when it has access to a Tyrannocyte. If it's not in range of an enemy unit, the powers are basically useless! The Zope becomes little less than a synapse source, and a Warpcharge battery. Although that is probably its best role anyway.
Grade: B
Neurothrope
The Leviathan expansion book added a few new rules to Zoanthrope broods- units can go up to six models and they can upgrade to a new character if they contain three or more models known as the Neurothrope. The Neurothrope gives the brood access to a fourth power: Spirit Leech. Spirit Leech is a pure offensive power that can only be used by the Nope. If successful, it gives you more Warpcharge points to use for your other Zopes to manifest Warp Blast. If you take a Neurothrope, know that you fully intend to use the brood as an offensive unit, preferably in a Tyrannocyte as the unit is generally too slow to get close enough to maximize it's psychic might.
Thanks for the reply Frozocone, it was pretty helpful. Now another question I have is whether or not you can take a dataslate on its own. My friends and I will probably be doing smaller games to start out and some of the dataslates (Skyblight for instance) are big enough to be an army on their own. Is it required for an army to have a standard detachment?
Boburrito wrote: Thanks for the reply Frozocone, it was pretty helpful. Now another question I have is whether or not you can take a dataslate on its own. My friends and I will probably be doing smaller games to start out and some of the dataslates (Skyblight for instance) are big enough to be an army on their own. Is it required for an army to have a standard detachment?
If you mean a Combined Arms Detachment, then no. Battle-forged armies can be made from any type and number of detachments - Formations are just a unique type of detachment.
Also, if you want to make changes to your unit write-ups, just post the complete re-write on this thread or PM me and I will make the corrections/edits (more like copy and paste them ) onto p. 1 of the main tactica.
HQ
Hive Tyrant - jy2 Deathleaper - jy2 Old One Eye - jy2 Swarmlord - ductvader Tervigon - Frozocrone Tyranid Prime - Unyielding Hunger Tyrant Guard - Unyielding Hunger
Rising Leviathan II Endless Swarm
Incubator Node
Living Artillery Node
Skyblight Swarm
Synaptic Swarm
Rising Leviathan III Bioblast Node
Living Tide
Subterranean Swarm
Tyrant Node
Wrecker Node
Shields of Baal Skytyrant Swarm
Neural Node
Hypertoxic Node
Spore Field
Skytide
Hive Fleet Leviathan
BIOMORPHS/WARGEAR
Bio-artefacts - Sinful Hero
Let me know which you want to volunteer for and I will update this list. Or you could just post the review of the unit directly onto this thread and I will update the list and also the main tactica on p.1.
Just reporting this- looks like we still have a bit of work to do. I don't remember seeing it in the OP but I'll try to do Meiotic Spores if they haven't been touched yet. Maybe a formation or two if I'm feeling adventurous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw jy2, would you mind linking to your Pentyrant battle reports in the OP? Some might find them useful.
tag8833 wrote: I played Tau tonight. 1st time ever I've lost 3 FMCs in a single turn at 1850. 2 Flyrants and a Crone all died on turn 2 when I failed 5 of 6 3+ armor saves and 4 Feel No Pains. A skyfire burstide killed a full wound Flyrant with feel no pain. Buffmander's suites killed my last flyrant which had 3 wounds, and the 2nd Skyfire burstide annihilated a crone with markerlight support. It was a blood bath. Buffmander's suites took out barbie on turn 3, and I conceded heading into a turn 4 tabling. I didn't think my 5 remaining rippers stood much a chance against his whole army minus the 4 marker light I managed to kill.
Gadzooks, and I thought my rolling was terrible. Sounds like the hive mind ignored you.
I rolled a little poorly, and Tau rolled pretty well. The skyfire busttide did 3 rends, 1 Fusion hit, and 3 normal saves to the flyrant. I made 3/4 cover saves, but failed all 3 armor saves. Statistically, I should have failed 2 covers saves, and 1 Armor save, and made one FNP, and ended up losing only 2 wounds, but this result isn't all that far out of whack.
However all of the other rolls were statistical. Buffmander's crew ignored cover, and Shadowsun got me with a fusion, and then a Skyfire missile commander forced me to make 3 saves and I happened to fail 2 of them, but if I had made them all, there were another 12 missile pod shots coming at me, and it would have been enough to kill that flyrant. Meanwhile a skyfire burstide that has 2 marker lights to ignore cover, and 2 more to buff BS has no problem killing a Crone. Wounding on 3's. No saves of any kind allowed.
Just had the greatest moment of my Tyranid career yesterday! (Which is just this game!)
Was playing a nasty centstar with Imperial Knight. I spent 2 turns shooting at the Imp Knight with 2 Hive Crones and a Hive Tyrant.
We were playing Maelstrom and he rolled where he had to control every objective so all he needed to do was charge his Imperial Knight (who had 1 wound left) at my Tyrannocyte and kill it then he would have all 6 objectives and really pull away from me (its worth D3+3pts).
He charged in and did 3 wounds to my 'Cyte, I smashed back and took off his final Hull Point then on top of that he rolled a 6 for explosion and rolled right on top of my Tyrannocyte. Then promptly rolled a 1 to kill it .
Needless to say I got destroyed but the Tyrannocyte has jumped to the front of my painting board!!
foto69man wrote: Hello all... Buddy of mine ran the PenTyrant list at a Tourney this weekend. Once I talk to him I'll post his thoughts here.
Was putting together a 1k list, and wanted to see what the experts thought. See how competitive this could be :
Dakka Flyrant
4 Zoans in a pod
2 Mucolids
Hive Crone
Tyrannofex in a pod with Adrenal glands.
That leaves me with 35 spare points. Thoughts, comments?
You might put the Tyrannofex in a pod, and swap out the Zopes. It's difficult to get good use out of them with the way Psychic powers work(far too many points of failure).
Automatically Appended Next Post: But if you really want to keep them, you might swap one out for a Nuerothrope for the extra Psychic power. If successful it can save you some dice for your Flyrant.
Leviathin Detachment
3 Dakka Flyrants
3 Mucolids
Venomthrope
Mawloc (Big guy that pops up out of the ground)
Naked ADL
If that's what you want to run, I'm sure it will be a hard counter to a few lists. Could drop the ADL and Mawloc for a Crone to swarm even more flyers.
The second one will win you a few games, but not many people will have a lot of fun against it. The ADL seems kind of tacked on- what do you intend it to provide for your list?
ADL and Venom are for those times I want to start all the Flyrants on the table, but terrain might be lacking. And keeps the Mucolids alive a little longer
foto69man wrote: ADL and Venom are for those times I want to start all the Flyrants on the table, but terrain might be lacking. And keeps the Mucolids alive a little longer
A bunker might be a better bet. As a building it would keep your venom safer, plus give a bigger shrouding bubble. Of course, you'd have to scrounge up 5 more points somewhere.
And the ADL should do a decent job of keeping the Vope and Mucolids safe.
)
I always like to read how other people's games go.
and it is low cost. If you want to go crazy then look at adding Adrenal glands. Dang expensive though.
In any case, your flyrants should always have an important target to shoot at.
I like to Outflank it, when I do take one, so it can smash the backfield. It can spawn it's own screen, and I always give it a Thorax hive, so it is too dangerous to ignore. 
