Who would win, in a 100 vs. 100 vs. 100 units battle? I personally think the Astartes, because they have 2 hearts, pretty strong bones, Bolters, etc. I know that some might argue that a Spartan would win because of agility, but come on, would MJOLNIR really survive a burst of Bolter fire?
As far as I remember, Starcraft marines are just regular humans with sophisticated armor.
A space marine is bigger, stronger and faster than even Master chief so I have no idea why they wouldn't win against 'regular' spartans. To top it of, they have better weaponry since a bolter round would probably match a M41 rocket impact (in terms of strenght).
Unknown. The problem with these sorts of comparisons is you need numbers. Where as some fictional universes (such as star wars or star trek) have resources to be used to determine low-end numbers, others (such as wh40k) have so much conflicting information we cannot make any reasonable calculations.
MJOLNIR armor is actually surprisingly weak in terms of protection.
The shield is the only substantial protection it offers, and it gets overloaded with even a couple weak hits from a covenant plasma pistol. Legendary difficulty is the "canon" difficulty setting if you want to do comparisons. And once the shield is down, the Spartan goes down quickly.
Spartans are also far inferior in terms of genetic and physical modifications.
Its a common misconception that Space Marines are slow. They're not. Their armor actually makes them faster! Books written from the POV of normal humans describe Marines moving as blurs and that its unsettling how something so large can move so fast.
Starcraft armor appears to be of similar protection and technology as 40k power armor. The fact they're still just normal humans puts them squarely behind Space Marines. They'd basically have SoB statlines.
We really don't have any actual comparable information. The only thing we actually know is that Spartans are much faster and stronger than unaltered humans, and that Astartes are much stronger and faster than unaltered humans, and that each wears a suit of power armor that similarly makes them much faster and stronger than they already are. Especially considering that plasma weapons kill Astartes as easily as they seem to kill Spartans when both are in full armor, about the only reasonably quantifiable comparison you can actually make and actually support in a meaningful way is that bolters have more firepower in general than the Spartan's standard small arms. Any supposition beyond that comes down purely to how much of a fanboy you are of the respective faction.
Grey Templar wrote: MJOLNIR armor is actually surprisingly weak in terms of protection.
The shield is the only substantial protection it offers, and it gets overloaded with even a couple weak hits from a covenant plasma pistol. Legendary difficulty is the "canon" difficulty setting if you want to do comparisons. And once the shield is down, the Spartan goes down quickly.
Spartans are also far inferior in terms of genetic and physical modifications.
Its a common misconception that Space Marines are slow. They're not. Their armor actually makes them faster! Books written from the POV of normal humans describe Marines moving as blurs and that its unsettling how something so large can move so fast.
Starcraft armor appears to be of similar protection and technology as 40k power armor. The fact they're still just normal humans puts them squarely behind Space Marines. They'd basically have SoB statlines.
Generally this is true, 40k marines generally kick ass when compared to other settings. That's just the way 40k is. It is meant to be over the top and insane and it is meant to sound hardcore. It is the nature of it, trying to compare it to other things is hard because 40k reaches levels of hyperviolence only dreamed about by franchises like Halo, Starcraft, Generic mecha anime #376, generic sci-fi #27 and others. That's what makes 40k special, nowhere else can a Rambo equivalent fight alien, nowhere else are there Scottish ninja assassins who make demon worlds their personal playthings, and nowhere else does fungus fight with guns. That's what its about. such comparisons are meaningless as I have yet to find something the forces of 40k could not beat the gak out of. Generally because it draws from basically everything meaning most factions will have experience fighting an equivalent of basically anything in scifi.
In short such comparisons are weighted in favor of 40k.
DarkLink wrote: We really don't have any actual comparable information. The only thing we actually know is that Spartans are much faster and stronger than unaltered humans, and that Astartes are much stronger and faster than unaltered humans, and that each wears a suit of power armor that similarly makes them much faster and stronger than they already are. Especially considering that plasma weapons kill Astartes as easily as they seem to kill Spartans when both are in full armor, about the only reasonably quantifiable comparison you can actually make and actually support in a meaningful way is that bolters have more firepower in general than the Spartan's standard small arms. Any supposition beyond that comes down purely to how much of a fanboy you are of the respective faction.
Covenant Plasma Pistols are objectively far far weaker than 40k Plasma pistols.
40k Plasma can put holes in battle tanks. The Covenant Plasma pistol is the basic weapon of grunts and it can barely scratch the paint on a glorified ATV.
DarkLink wrote: We really don't have any actual comparable information. The only thing we actually know is that Spartans are much faster and stronger than unaltered humans, and that Astartes are much stronger and faster than unaltered humans, and that each wears a suit of power armor that similarly makes them much faster and stronger than they already are. Especially considering that plasma weapons kill Astartes as easily as they seem to kill Spartans when both are in full armor, about the only reasonably quantifiable comparison you can actually make and actually support in a meaningful way is that bolters have more firepower in general than the Spartan's standard small arms. Any supposition beyond that comes down purely to how much of a fanboy you are of the respective faction.
Covenant Plasma Pistols are objectively far far weaker than 40k Plasma pistols.
40k Plasma can put holes in battle tanks. The Covenant Plasma pistol is the basic weapon of grunts and it can barely scratch the paint on a glorified ATV.
True, and most settings lack the high powered weapons to take down marines.
It would be cool to just see a warhammer 40k day where a bunch of animators animated a bunch 40k space marines just fighting against famous super heroes. (Superman dead, Batman dead, kratos dead, hulk win, captain america dead)
Also who said Starcraft marines? Those guys would get their butts kicked.
Lets face it space marines are all super heroes if they were given guns and highly advanced equipment.
It would be cool to just see a warhammer 40k day where a bunch of animators animated a bunch 40k space marines just fighting against famous super heroes.
Also who said Starcraft marines? Those guys would get their butts kicked.
I guess the Marvel world is getting nuked then. Mutants everywhere.
No, that's a Heavy Stubber. Regular stubbers are basically 20th century guns in the 41st Millennium. Halo's weapons are basically cold war stuff with more blinky lights attached to them. Actually, they're worse than stuff you'd find in the cold war. The MA5C Assault Rifle has an effective range of 300 meters and has a muzzle velocity of of 905 m/s. The M16 has an effective range of 600 meters with a muzzle velocity of 948 m/s and it has a superior rate of fire.
Really, all a Space Marine would have to do is to stand 600 meters away and blow the crap out of the Spartan with his bolter. All the Spartan could so is just plink away with a gakky rifle that was outdated centuries before it's introduction.
It would be cool to just see a warhammer 40k day where a bunch of animators animated a bunch 40k space marines just fighting against famous super heroes.
Also who said Starcraft marines? Those guys would get their butts kicked.
I guess the Marvel world is getting nuked then. Mutants everywhere.
It would be cool to just see a warhammer 40k day where a bunch of animators animated a bunch 40k space marines just fighting against famous super heroes.
Also who said Starcraft marines? Those guys would get their butts kicked.
I guess the Marvel world is getting nuked then. Mutants everywhere.
Then the only survivor would be the hulk. XD
The Hulk is the exact type of creature Mass Reactive Bolter shells were designed to take out.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: My favvorite thing to do with cross ip matchups is to challenge people to find a non 40k army that can beat the guard. I have yet to find one.
The Culture are pretty badass, apparently.
The Saudaukar can probably give them a run for their money.
Any faction from Supreme Commander will just crap all over the guard.
Oh, you have billions of infantry? Well an ACU can build a structure that churns out automated killing machines that are somewhere between the size of dreadnaughts and knights. In seconds.
That's just the basic "infantry"
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: My favvorite thing to do with cross ip matchups is to challenge people to find a non 40k army that can beat the guard. I have yet to find one.
The Culture are pretty badass, apparently.
The Saudaukar can probably give them a run for their money.
Any faction from Supreme Commander will just crap all over the guard.
Oh, you have billions of infantry? Well an ACU can build a structure that churns out automated killing machines that are somewhere between the size of dreadnaughts and knights. In seconds.
That's just the basic "infantry"
Indeed, although Supreme Commander has the problem of no Space Ships. They're literally stuck going to planets they can teleport to. And 40k rules the Void!
TheCustomLime wrote: No, that's a Heavy Stubber. Regular stubbers are basically 20th century guns in the 41st Millennium. Halo's weapons are basically cold war stuff with more blinky lights attached to them. Actually, they're worse than stuff you'd find in the cold war. The MA5C Assault Rifle has an effective range of 300 meters and has a muzzle velocity of of 905 m/s. The M16 has an effective range of 600 meters with a muzzle velocity of 948 m/s and it has a superior rate of fire.
Really, all a Space Marine would have to do is to stand 600 meters away and blow the crap out of the Spartan with his bolter. All the Spartan could so is just plink away with a gakky rifle that was outdated centuries before it's introduction.
You mean the Stub Rifle? Yeah, that's basically a high caliber hunting rifle. There is no such thing as a regular stubber, apparently.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: My favvorite thing to do with cross ip matchups is to challenge people to find a non 40k army that can beat the guard. I have yet to find one.
The Culture are pretty badass, apparently. The Saudaukar can probably give them a run for their money. Any faction from Supreme Commander will just crap all over the guard.
Oh, you have billions of infantry? Well an ACU can build a structure that churns out automated killing machines that are somewhere between the size of dreadnaughts and knights. In seconds. That's just the basic "infantry"
Indeed, although Supreme Commander has the problem of no Space Ships. They're literally stuck going to planets they can teleport to. And 40k rules the Void!
Yeah, that's true. Imperial Guard aren't the Navy though
My friend ran math on these guys once and their skills and equipment fluff-wise.
An unarmed 40k marine will beat them both combined.
And by unarmed I mean one with no hands.
BoomWolf wrote: My friend ran math on these guys once and their skills and equipment fluff-wise.
An unarmed 40k marine will beat them both combined.
And by unarmed I mean one with no hands.
There where not even 100 spartan 2.
Spartan 4 are not as advanced in some regards. There upgraded adults.
And marines are more a advanced than spartan 2.
There weapons and bodies are better and have experience advantage. Plus the battle rufle vs power armour = lol!
Basic tactical marines have decades potentially on even the master chief. A Sgt even more.
Officers, this is unfair!
True. I'd take the fluff astartes over the starcraft marine, but I'd take starcraft marines over the table top marines all day every day. Tabletop marines would also be slaughtered by zerglings and hydralisks. Because the boltgun sucks on the tabletop.
I'd also say the Terran armies from Starcraft are far more realistic and functional than the inanity that GW has dreamed up for the Imperium. Seriously? WWI tank hulls? I'm not just not a fan of the retro-future in general.
Psienesis wrote: Despite the fact that the Terran Empire in StarCraft is the Confederacy in Space?
Yeah, pretty much. Starcraft fluff isn't Game of Thrones, but it's a hell of a lot better than GW's. In my view, at least. I pretty much despise GW's fluff.
Tough, worlds apart when it comes to armor and weaponry, the basic Terran militia marine is nonetheless Starcraft's equivalent of the 40K Guardsmen.
Bcause of this, I think it would be much more prudent to put space marines up against the elites of the Terrans, like the Maradur ect.
Let see how well those gloryfied war relics fair agianst something that uses anti-tank rockets as it's main armament.
Redcruisair wrote: Tough, worlds apart when it comes to armor and weaponry, the basic Terran militia marine is nonetheless Starcraft's equivalent of the 40K Guardsmen.
Bcause of this, I think it would be much more prudent to put space marines up against the elites of the Terrans, like the Maradur ect.
Let see how well those gloryfied war relics fair agianst something that uses anti-tank rockets as it's main armament.
I am pretty sure that means that 40k marines still win as they have many different types of marines tactical, assualt and devastator squads.
Infact the space marines fight as a team not as individuals which is very different in terms of the Terran Marines and Marauders who fight on an individual basis.
The marines also fight as individuals, at least on the table top. In fact, the marines have the least list synergy of almost every army in the game, afaik.
Martel732 wrote: The marines also fight as individuals, at least on the table top. In fact, the marines have the least list synergy of almost every army in the game, afaik.
They look that way but the best part of that codex is figuring out list synergy. I'd put them on par with guard.
Martel732 wrote: The marines also fight as individuals, at least on the table top. In fact, the marines have the least list synergy of almost every army in the game, afaik.
They look that way but the best part of that codex is figuring out list synergy. I'd put them on par with guard.
There is no synergy to figure out. Ie, there is no mechanistic way for the units to help each other. The Guard have WAY MORE synergy in their list via the order mechanic. At least the Starcraft terrans have the medivac.
If you put Starcraft marines armor and SM armor on equal footing, Starcraft marines win because their gun is made to punch through their own armor, and would therefore punch through SM armor as well.
Bobthehero wrote: If you put Starcraft marines armor and SM armor on equal footing, Starcraft marines win because their gun is made to punch through their own armor, and would therefore punch through SM armor as well.
It is quite silly that marine guns can't penetrate the armor of their hated rivals, the CSM. This is completely the reverse of how modern weapons really work.
Bobthehero wrote: If you put Starcraft marines armor and SM armor on equal footing, Starcraft marines win because their gun is made to punch through their own armor, and would therefore punch through SM armor as well.
Martel732 wrote: The marines also fight as individuals, at least on the table top. In fact, the marines have the least list synergy of almost every army in the game, afaik.
Your thinking of Custodes.
Space Marines are Soldiers not warriors.
Who else is saying that space marines weapons are not meant to pentrate power armor. It can.
Where are you people pulling this info from? your arses?
Martel732 wrote: The marines also fight as individuals, at least on the table top. In fact, the marines have the least list synergy of almost every army in the game, afaik.
Your thinking of Custodes.
Space Marines are Soldiers not warriors.
Who else is saying that space marines weapons are not meant to pentrate power armor. It can.
Where are you people pulling this info from? your arses?
Last I checked, the only "synergy" in the marine book was coming from psykers. That's not very much.
AP 5 does not penetrate 3+ armor. That's where I'm getting it from. Power armor in 40K just magically doesn't function 33% of the time. Pretty crappy armor if you ask me.
Bobthehero wrote: If you put Starcraft marines armor and SM armor on equal footing, Starcraft marines win because their gun is made to punch through their own armor, and would therefore punch through SM armor as well.
Although... Bolters are grenade launchers.
Bolters are techincally anti-tank and anti-personal. Space marine tactical squads can take out tanks if well positioned.
Space marines in general have extremely high intelligence and IQ.
Where the Marines from starcraft are not gifted as such.
Space Marines have an IQ usually above two hundred.
A space marine is also trained to fight with his brothers.
A marine is usually a convict or a militamen or sometimes they are military trained.
Like space marines, Terran Marines have different types of Armor. Marauder, WarPig and several other types.
Terran Marines are trained to hold positions and to strike. They are the main bystead of the Terran Armies.
Space Marines are extremely hard to kill even blown apart they can still survive not to mention that most have centuries of experience. In the Fluff Space Marines defeated an entire planetary system that used power armor but they still lost to the space marine legions.
Martel732 wrote: The marines also fight as individuals, at least on the table top. In fact, the marines have the least list synergy of almost every army in the game, afaik.
Your thinking of Custodes.
Space Marines are Soldiers not warriors.
Who else is saying that space marines weapons are not meant to pentrate power armor. It can.
Where are you people pulling this info from? your arses?
Last I checked, the only "synergy" in the marine book was coming from psykers. That's not very much.
AP 5 does not penetrate 3+ armor. That's where I'm getting it from. Power armor in 40K just magically doesn't function 33% of the time. Pretty crappy armor if you ask me.
Yes because going by game rules marines are just as good as a guardsmen. Go by the fluff not the rulebook.
Space Marines in the older codexes were quite more powerful than they are right now. Space marines would kill entire squads of chaos space marines.
If you go by the fluff. It is really rare for a space marine to die.
The bolter is a nice weapon, to be sure, but people seem to be forgetting it has a 24" range. Frankly i'd rather have a battle rifle and get some long-range shots in.
Torga_DW wrote: The bolter is a nice weapon, to be sure, but people seem to be forgetting it has a 24" range. Frankly i'd rather have a battle rifle and get some long-range shots in.
Techincally that 24 inch could be representive of miles.
Infact lets not forget that most 40k space battles happen over KILOMETRES.
And lets not forget that most space marines have extremely well increased skills. Most space marines don't even get into close combat because of how accurate they usually are.
24" on the board is equalivent to two kilometres.
A single marine squad can stop an entire war.
Not to mention battlefield experience.
ITs no Competition the Space Marines win Every bloody time.
Yeah, close-combat weapons are pretty useless when employed against a walking tank with rocket launchers for fists. Besides, what can chainswords even do to a Maradur? Maradurs have none of the weakpoints space marine suffers from.
Devastators have to stand still before they can shoot, Maradurs don't. Devastators are also a niche space marine unit, whereas Maradurs are the "tacticals" of an Terran military force.
Asherian Command wrote: I am pretty sure that means that 40k marines still win as they have many different types of marines
Whom all die equally well to anti-tank weaponry.
Yes and then An assault marine comes in and slaughters them. Lets not forget the fact that those are for tanks. Not for infantry. A force consistently made of only anti-tank weaponry will be outmatched in terms of fire power by the sheer tactical brilliance. Where maruaderers are nothing without their leader.
I'm sure anti-tank rockets are supiror to whatever bolters uses.
Hahaha. Oh dear I do hope your joking. first they have to hit the space marines. Space Marines are super humans. Good luck hitting one in a slow and cumbersome weapon. Maruaders have to stand still in order to fire. Remember?
Yeah, close-combat weapons are pretty useless when employed against a walking tank with rocket launchers for fists. Besides, what can chainswords even do to a Maradur? Maradurs have none of the weakpoints space marine suffers from.
Not really as space marines use power weapons that can cut through tank armor. Maruaders can be killed and countered by hydralisks and zerglings.
A space marines chainsword can cut through ceramite.
Bolters are made to kill heavy armored units.
And lets not forget there are different types of bolters and bolters are not the only weapon to an astartes.
In the lore entire squads can be deployed with Kraken Bolters.
Space marines will equip for any situation if they are facing tyranids they will get flamers or heavy bolters.
Not to mention how long a space marine has fought wars. Giving them more combat efficency than a Maruader or a Marine of Kohral who are very in experienced and very rarely are they actually veterans.
Devastators have to stand still before they can shoot, Maradurs don't. Devastators are also a niche space marine unit, whereas Maradurs are the "tacticals" of an Terran military force.
Yes but you will get sniped by the space marine devastators. By the time the maruaders know what hit them their entire infastructure and command stations. AS seen in the Battle of Kohral when the commanders were all killed and the entire Kohral Army went into disarry after losing contact with its leaders.
The Space Marines are intelligent enough to strike out and destroy the enemies command centre and kill the leader.
Read the Lore mate. I got that from Starcraft 1's Hand Book it literally says. "That Marines are Militia Men and are sometimes Convicts." Meaning they fight based on individuality not on squad based tactics.
A Rhino moving Combat Speed moves 6" (500 meters per your estimate). A Rhino itself is only 3" long (250 meters per your estimate). Per GW the official length of a Rhino is 6.6 meters. Well short of your estimate.
The UED lost to Kerrigan, the Protoss and Sons of Kohral, iirc. Kerrigan then betrayed her allies, and finished off the weakened UED while they were defending the young Overmind.
At least that's what I remember. It's been something like 4 years since I played Brood War.
A Rhino moving Combat Speed moves 6" (500 meters per your estimate). A Rhino itself is only 3" long (250 meters per your estimate). Per GW the official length of a Rhino is 6.6 meters. Well short of your estimate.
Keep in mind that the vehicles (or TT measurements in generale) are not to scale. A Rhino is supposed to be able to carry 10 space marines. Can you fit 10 space marines into a rhino.
Assuming it is to scale though -
If the rhino modle is 3 inches and the actual size is 6.6 meters, then if my calculations are correct that would mean each inch is 2.2 meters.
24 * 2.2 = 52.8 meters.
Effective Firing range of an M16 = about 600m
So yeah...Tabletop measurements are pretty dumb and inaccurate. Fine for a skirmish level game, absurd for an actual war-game.
Thats the problem with using 'ingame' metrics to prove how awesome space marines are. Mjolnir armour is weak because it can only take a couple of plasma rounds before the occupant dies. While with marine armour its pretty much a guaranteed kill with one shot.
Marines don't need power weapons to blow up most tanks in melee, their fists do it just fine. I think we need to bring the hulk into this discussion.
A Rhino moving Combat Speed moves 6" (500 meters per your estimate). A Rhino itself is only 3" long (250 meters per your estimate). Per GW the official length of a Rhino is 6.6 meters. Well short of your estimate.
Hmm so what the speed be exactly?
I was estimating mostly. So what would 24 inches be in terms of real life or in the fluff.
A space marine is around a 2 meters tall
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Torga_DW wrote: Thats the problem with using 'ingame' metrics to prove how awesome space marines are. Mjolnir armour is weak because it can only take a couple of plasma rounds before the occupant dies. While with marine armour its pretty much a guaranteed kill with one shot.
Marines don't need power weapons to blow up most tanks in melee, their fists do it just fine. I think we need to bring the hulk into this discussion.
Martel732 wrote: The marines also fight as individuals, at least on the table top. In fact, the marines have the least list synergy of almost every army in the game, afaik.
They look that way but the best part of that codex is figuring out list synergy. I'd put them on par with guard.
There is no synergy to figure out. Ie, there is no mechanistic way for the units to help each other. The Guard have WAY MORE synergy in their list via the order mechanic. At least the Starcraft terrans have the medivac.
You have a very narrow view of synergy. You don't have to have direct interaction for there to be synergy.
Units simply dedicated to covering an area another squad is deficient in is plenty of synergy.
Torga_DW wrote: Thats the problem with using 'ingame' metrics to prove how awesome space marines are. Mjolnir armour is weak because it can only take a couple of plasma rounds before the occupant dies. While with marine armour its pretty much a guaranteed kill with one shot.
Marines don't need power weapons to blow up most tanks in melee, their fists do it just fine. I think we need to bring the hulk into this discussion.
Imperial plasma is stronger than covenant plasma though. Plasma in warhammer 40k is meant to detonate with the heat of a small sun, and is supposed to kill a human outright (going off Instant death)
Covenant plasma only appears to leave small burns.
A Rhino moving Combat Speed moves 6" (500 meters per your estimate). A Rhino itself is only 3" long (250 meters per your estimate). Per GW the official length of a Rhino is 6.6 meters. Well short of your estimate.
Hmm so what the speed be exactly?
I was estimating mostly. So what would 24 inches be in terms of real life or in the fluff.
A space marine is around a 2 meters tall
Unknown.
There are problems with trying to calculate this. As you pointed out models are not to scale. a 2m tall Space Marine is roughly the same height as a normal person. We could estimate distances based on speed, however we do not have a time reference to compare it to. If the Movement phase takes 1 hour of :miniature time" (in other words, regardless of how long the Movement phase takes for us, for the models it is always 1 hour), then 6" could be anywhere between 5 and 8 kilometers. If the miniature time is less (say maybe 2 minutes) you are looking at roughly 250 meters.
If we use FFG rules for weapons, then a Lasgun (with a 24" range) has a range of 100m, meaning that 6" on the table would be 25 meters.
Bobthehero wrote: If you put Starcraft marines armor and SM armor on equal footing, Starcraft marines win because their gun is made to punch through their own armor, and would therefore punch through SM armor as well.
It is quite silly that marine guns can't penetrate the armor of their hated rivals, the CSM. This is completely the reverse of how modern weapons really work.
except the way armor is supposed to work is to protect the wearer from weaponry.
Any study of the history of arms and armor is sufficant to realize that it's basicly a never ending race, someone invents a better weapon, and someone creates armor to protect against it. in which case they create a better weapon.
one thing to keep in mind is the boltgun was designed and deployed when the idea of marines fighting marines was almost unheard of. and we see evidance of the Marines deploying speciality ammo for bolt guns. if they're willing to take some ranged penalties, Marines CAN penatrate power armor.
Honestly. Starship Troopers may be the grandfather to all of them but the novel's Mobile Infantry will still probably wipe the floor with each and every one of them. Armour that's designed to withstand everything short of anti-tank weaponry, that imbues the soldier with enough strength to crush a tank, and is equipped with jump jets. All this as standard issue and completely uncumbersome to the point as being described as being worn much like how humans wear their own skin. As for weaponry, they're armed to suit the enemy but are routinely equipped with hand-mounted flame throwers, explosive ammunition and automated missile launchers. Most of which are all target-seeking. Oh, and they have access to tactical nukes.
So, to put it in 40K game terms... Each Mobile Infantry soldier is jump infantry with at least Toughness 6 and armed with Power fists. Moreover, at least one (if not all) member(s) of the squad is carrying a Strength D, Apocalyptic blast weapon. Oh, and as they are always deployed from orbit, they have Deep Strike too.
Bobthehero wrote: If you put Starcraft marines armor and SM armor on equal footing, Starcraft marines win because their gun is made to punch through their own armor, and would therefore punch through SM armor as well.
It is quite silly that marine guns can't penetrate the armor of their hated rivals, the CSM. This is completely the reverse of how modern weapons really work.
except the way armor is supposed to work is to protect the wearer from weaponry.
Any study of the history of arms and armor is sufficant to realize that it's basicly a never ending race, someone invents a better weapon, and someone creates armor to protect against it. in which case they create a better weapon.
one thing to keep in mind is the boltgun was designed and deployed when the idea of marines fighting marines was almost unheard of. and we see evidance of the Marines deploying speciality ammo for bolt guns. if they're willing to take some ranged penalties, Marines CAN penatrate power armor.
Lets not forget that space marines do carry special ammunition with them sometimes on special missions where they know who they are fighting during the Tyranic Wars they carried hellfire rounds on every marine. Yes Every marine had a hellfire round.
Unknown. There are problems with trying to calculate this. As you pointed out models are not to scale. a 2m tall Space Marine is roughly the same height as a normal person. We could estimate distances based on speed, however we do not have a time reference to compare it to. If the Movement phase takes 1 hour of :miniature time" (in other words, regardless of how long the Movement phase takes for us, for the models it is always 1 hour), then 6" could be anywhere between 5 and 8 kilometers. If the miniature time is less (say maybe 2 minutes) you are looking at roughly 250 meters.
If we use FFG rules for weapons, then a Lasgun (with a 24" range) has a range of 100m, meaning that 6" on the table would be 25 meters.
Considering how far a weapon of today can shoot (1000 Yards) x1.52 (As modern weapons only get better with time.) We are probably going to see the main weaponry gain more and more range over time.
Each Mobile Infantry soldier is at least Toughness 6 and armed with Power fists. Moreover, at least one (if not all) member(s) of the squad is carrying a Strength D weapon, Apocalyptic blast weapon. Oh, and as they are always deployed from orbit, they have Deep Strike too.
That sounds incredibly stupid. Even by 40k standards it does sound stupid.
Martel732 wrote: The marines also fight as individuals, at least on the table top. In fact, the marines have the least list synergy of almost every army in the game, afaik.
They look that way but the best part of that codex is figuring out list synergy. I'd put them on par with guard.
There is no synergy to figure out. Ie, there is no mechanistic way for the units to help each other. The Guard have WAY MORE synergy in their list via the order mechanic. At least the Starcraft terrans have the medivac.
You have a very narrow view of synergy. You don't have to have direct interaction for there to be synergy.
Units simply dedicated to covering an area another squad is deficient in is plenty of synergy.
No, not really. That's just being a unit with a different specialization. NOT synergy.
1) You're trying to translate heavily-abstracted game mechanics into "real-world" numbers. This doesn't work because the game mechanics have very little to do with the "real" world. For example, giving a maximum range for a weapon is just absurd, bullets don't magically disappear once they hit an arbitrary maximum range. In reality you would have decreasing accuracy with range, up to a point where the chance of hitting a target is too small to be worth rolling the dice. And that point would be well short of the maximum range at which the bullet can kill someone if it hits them by sheer luck. So when the 40k rules say a weapon has a maximum range of 24" that doesn't mean very much. At most we can claim that its effective range is roughly twice the range of a 12" gun, but even that doesn't work all that well when you consider the fact that 40k's weapon ranges seem to work on a non-linear scale.
2) You're confusing maximum range with maximum effective range. A modern rifle bullet can land miles away from the shooter if you fire it in a high arc, but you aren't going to hit anything at that range. The more relevant range from a gaming perspective is the range at which an average shooter can expect to hit a human-sized target. A maximum range of 24" for an infantry gun represents the much shorter range at which an average shooter is consistently hitting a target, not the 1000 yard range at which an expert marksman can hit a target under ideal conditions.
That sounds incredibly stupid. Even by 40k standards it does sound stupid.
Too bad, because that's how it works. 40k is not even close to the high end of power in scifi, complaining about how "stupid" it would be for the mobile infantry to have those stats makes about as much sense as complaining that it isn't appropriate to give a space marine god-like stats in a 1500s historical game. And of course the mobile infantry aren't really at the top either. For example, a Culture combat drone would have a stat line of all 10s and a special rule that as soon as the game begins the entire opposing army is destroyed. And that would probably underestimate its power by a significant margin.
1) You're trying to translate heavily-abstracted game mechanics into "real-world" numbers. This doesn't work because the game mechanics have very little to do with the "real" world. For example, giving a maximum range for a weapon is just absurd, bullets don't magically disappear once they hit an arbitrary maximum range. In reality you would have decreasing accuracy with range, up to a point where the chance of hitting a target is too small to be worth rolling the dice. And that point would be well short of the maximum range at which the bullet can kill someone if it hits them by sheer luck. So when the 40k rules say a weapon has a maximum range of 24" that doesn't mean very much. At most we can claim that its effective range is roughly twice the range of a 12" gun, but even that doesn't work all that well when you consider the fact that 40k's weapon ranges seem to work on a non-linear scale.
2) You're confusing maximum range with maximum effective range. A modern rifle bullet can land miles away from the shooter if you fire it in a high arc, but you aren't going to hit anything at that range. The more relevant range from a gaming perspective is the range at which an average shooter can expect to hit a human-sized target. A maximum range of 24" for an infantry gun represents the much shorter range at which an average shooter is consistently hitting a target, not the 1000 yard range at which an expert marksman can hit a target under ideal conditions.
Yes but we are dealing with super humans who far superior to any human are probably have better wired brains and their eyes are probably far more efficient and better than a regular human eye.
I was only making an estimate on it, and I wasn't saying the max range of the bolter is this. For all we know the Bolter could have optics that are placed on the bolter that allow them to see farther. The helmets that Space Marines wear have alot of special optics that make most starcraft technology look crappy in comparision.
Infact we know that the power armor space marines wear only enhances their abilities. Not to mention that how efficent weaponry has gotten in 40k universe.
That sounds incredibly stupid. Even by 40k standards it does sound stupid.
Too bad, because that's how it works. 40k is not even close to the high end of power in scifi, complaining about how "stupid" it would be for the mobile infantry to have those stats makes about as much sense as complaining that it isn't appropriate to give a space marine god-like stats in a 1500s historical game. And of course the mobile infantry aren't really at the top either. For example, a Culture combat drone would have a stat line of all 10s and a special rule that as soon as the game begins the entire opposing army is destroyed. And that would probably underestimate its power by a significant margin.
And yet those have no bearings in this discussion. The Culture and Mobile Infantry have no point to this discussion as this is about Spartan 2s and Starcraft Marines.
We have talked about the culture before On SEVERAL threads and we know throughly that the Culture would win hands down against any species or race that any genre has to offer. If you wish to talk about the culture or Mobile Infantry please take it to another thread.
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Martel732 wrote: 40K is low-powered because it is a retro-future. We have better targeting in our military today than the Imperium does.
Stop making these claims. If you have read the lore you know this is completely false.
Its a gothic feature. Not a Retro one.
Cowboy Bebop is Retro.
40k is not.
40k has ships that can go from one side of the gaxaly to the other in a matter of days. A space marine has a gun that can break through tank armor. And this armor can resist heavy weaponry even from tanks.
They might have those ships, but marine tanks miss their mark 33% of the time. 83% of the time if they moved and it is the second shot. For god sakes, they have SPONSON guns. Those went out in the 20s.
The lore to me is very secondary to efficacy on the table top. Marines don't perform anything like the claims you are making. I already conceded that the marines in the fluff win, but I consider the fluff almost irrelevant to my 40K experience.
Marines on the table top die in droves to AP - or AP 6 weapons that hit them enough times. Doesn't sound like that happens in the fluffl, but it's not reflected in their game. I'm going with the game.
Asherian Command wrote: Yes but we are dealing with super humans who far superior to any human are probably have better wired brains and their eyes are probably far more efficient and better than a regular human eye.
Accuracy isn't just about vision, it's about things like fine control over aiming the gun. A slight angular error in aim might be only an inch or two off at 10m (still hitting a human-size target), but the same level of error wouldn't even be close at 1000m. And at extreme range things like different wind between the shooter and the target, worn out parts on the gun, etc, all become much bigger factors. Then on top of that you have the power armor to consider. It's very difficult to increase the strength and speed of something (a robotic arm, for example) without sacrificing a bit of precision. For example, if you want the extreme arm strength to swing a chainsword and cut through a tank you might have to accept that your arm movements are always going to overshoot a bit. This is fine at close range, where marines are intended to fight, since slight errors don't matter as much, but would make it harder for a marine to aim a gun accurately at long range.
The helmets that Space Marines wear have alot of special optics that make most starcraft technology look crappy in comparision.
Proof of this? Do you have any evidence that marine optics are better than their Starcraft equivalents, or are you just assuming that space marines have to be awesome?
Not to mention that how efficent weaponry has gotten in 40k universe.
Actually most 40k weapons suck. They've made progress on firepower in some areas (melta/plasma/etc) but most of their stuff seems to be stuck at "WWII in space" levels.
And yet those have no bearings in this discussion. The Culture and Mobile Infantry have no point to this discussion as this is about Spartan 2s and Starcraft Marines.
We have talked about the culture before On SEVERAL threads and we know throughly that the Culture would win hands down against any species or race that any genre has to offer. If you wish to talk about the culture or Mobile Infantry please take it to another thread.
You're the one who complained that giving mobile infantry a particular stat line and special rules was "stupid". If you don't want to discuss those other universes then why did you feel compelled to post about them?
40k has ships that can go from one side of the gaxaly to the other in a matter of days. A space marine has a gun that can break through tank armor. And this armor can resist heavy weaponry even from tanks.
On the other hand you also have tanks that most WWII-era designers would laugh at, spaceships with broadside-mounted cannons and slave crews to load them, and hordes of screaming idiots with swords that still somehow manage to work because everyone has forgotten that WMDs/artillery/etc exist. The "retro-future" label is entirely accurate.
Martel732 wrote: They might have those ships, but marine tanks miss their mark 33% of the time. 83% of the time if they moved and it is the second shot. For god sakes, they have SPONSON guns. Those went out in the 20s.
The lore to me is very secondary to efficacy on the table top. Marines don't perform anything like the claims you are making. I already conceded that the marines in the fluff win, but I consider the fluff almost irrelevant to my 40K experience.
Marines on the table top die in droves to AP - or AP 6 weapons that hit them enough times. Doesn't sound like that happens in the fluffl, but it's not reflected in their game. I'm going with the game.
Wow this is where we diverge as the marines would still win. In the fluff they win, even with tabletop rule sets the space marines would still win considering the enormous amount of things you can take on a space marine codex list.
What is a starcraft tank?
what is a regular space marine tank?
Now baring in mind that space marines often out maneuver most foes you have to keep in mind that space marines very often use other experimental weaponry such as the Scarian Tank, but on very rare occassions they use super heavies such as the fellblade.
I don't think you are posting in good faith anymore. There are a very narrow range of marine lists that are truly fearsome. And most of them involve Tiggy/grav cent tricks. Given that Tiggy can only be in one place at a time, I'd say this is a problem for them.
Point for point, marines are rather miserable on the tabletop.
And for being so smart, all the tactical marines left their chainswords in their locker room. That's pretty stupid to me.
Asherian Command wrote: Yes but we are dealing with super humans who far superior to any human are probably have better wired brains and their eyes are probably far more efficient and better than a regular human eye.
Accuracy isn't just about vision, it's about things like fine control over aiming the gun. A slight angular error in aim might be only an inch or two off at 10m (still hitting a human-size target), but the same level of error wouldn't even be close at 1000m. And at extreme range things like different wind between the shooter and the target, worn out parts on the gun, etc, all become much bigger factors. Then on top of that you have the power armor to consider. It's very difficult to increase the strength and speed of something (a robotic arm, for example) without sacrificing a bit of precision. For example, if you want the extreme arm strength to swing a chainsword and cut through a tank you might have to accept that your arm movements are always going to overshoot a bit. This is fine at close range, where marines are intended to fight, since slight errors don't matter as much, but would make it harder for a marine to aim a gun accurately at long range.
Problem again is that we are thinking space marines aren't capable of this. Space Marines are for all tenses andd purposes veterans of hundreds of wars and battles. Saying that they cannot calculate distance and wind is something a super human would not have any trouble doing. As they often are shown to process information at greater detail than a normal human being.
The helmets that Space Marines wear have alot of special optics that make most starcraft technology look crappy in comparision.
Proof of this? Do you have any evidence that marine optics are better than their Starcraft equivalents, or are you just assuming that space marines have to be awesome?
Each suit possesses a full suite of life-support functions for operation in hostile environments, an automated medicae system to provide some level of first aid to a wounded wearer and a highly advanced and fully integrated tactical targeting and threat analysis system known as Auto-senses. The suit would be heavy and cumbersome to wear but for the electrically motivated fibre bundles within the armour that replicates the wearer's movement and enhances his strength beyond its already considerable superhuman baseline (for Space Marines). Whilst Power Armour is most commonly associated with the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Sisters of Battle and many Inquisitors also use powered armour of one sort or another. Typically, however, these armours may not contain the same strength-enhancing properties or life-support functions of Space Marine Power Armour, nor do they always provide the same level of protection.
Components
While Space Marine Armour has evolved and changed over the Millennia, key components remain the same.[15]
Auto-senses: Contained in the helmet, these systems include thought-activated communication arrays and audio filters, targeting reticules and range finders, tactical displays and auspex-links, and a host of other features.
Photolenses: Protect the Space Marine from light bursts and allow him to see in the infrared and ultraviolet spectrum's as well as enable vision in low-light conditions.
Respirator Vox Grill: This thought-activated device amplifies a Marine's battlecry to deafening volumes and contains a respirator to filter out toxins and draw upon an internal oxygen supply.
Auto Responsive Shoulder Plates: Shaped to deflect and absorb incoming blows, they usually display heraldry including Chapter, Company, and Squad symbols.
Chestpiece: Designed to protect armored power cables.
Backpack Power Unit: This houses the primary power core for the armour, as well as reserve cells and an emergency solar collector.
Life Signs Monitor: Regulate a suite of life support functions, including an injection system that can regulate painkillers, anti-toxins, and combat stimulants.
Nutrient Reservoir: A self-replenishing high-energy food store that can sustain a Space Marine's metabolism. Thus during battle, there is no need for a Space Marine to eat or drink.
Reinforced Greaves: These incorporate gyroscopic stabilizers and power units that can magnetize the soles of the armour's boots, allowing Space Marines to walk on metal surfaces in the void of space or zero gravity environments.
Its been discussed to death on this website several SEVERAL times.
40k has technology that makes us pale in comparision considering they can have someone who has blown apart limb from limb and still have them survive, means their medical technology is far superior to our own. Not to also forget that they have planet killing weaponry that reduces everything on a planet to ashes.
Not to mention that how efficent weaponry has gotten in 40k universe.
Actually most 40k weapons suck. They've made progress on firepower in some areas (melta/plasma/etc) but most of their stuff seems to be stuck at "WWII in space" levels.
Heres a bolter bullet:
And yet those have no bearings in this discussion. The Culture and Mobile Infantry have no point to this discussion as this is about Spartan 2s and Starcraft Marines.
We have talked about the culture before On SEVERAL threads and we know throughly that the Culture would win hands down against any species or race that any genre has to offer. If you wish to talk about the culture or Mobile Infantry please take it to another thread.
You're the one who complained that giving mobile infantry a particular stat line and special rules was "stupid". If you don't want to discuss those other universes then why did you feel compelled to post about them?
And yet you continue to bring it up. Do not include it on the conversation at hand.
40k has ships that can go from one side of the gaxaly to the other in a matter of days. A space marine has a gun that can break through tank armor. And this armor can resist heavy weaponry even from tanks.
On the other hand you also have tanks that most WWII-era designers would laugh at, spaceships with broadside-mounted cannons and slave crews to load them, and hordes of screaming idiots with swords that still somehow manage to work because everyone has forgotten that WMDs/artillery/etc exist. The "retro-future" label is entirely accurate.
on the other hand you can look at most starcraft vechiles and know they are mass produced and one of the reasons why they have fatal flaws. The Thor being massly outmatched by the Odin. And then the other vechiles such as the banshee being unable to target air units, yet being a stealth fighter has to rely on an highly unreliable stealth generator. Face it both universes sacrifice things in the name of cool.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I don't think you are posting in good faith anymore. There are a very narrow range of marine lists that are truly fearsome. And most of them involve Tiggy/grav cent tricks. Given that Tiggy can only be in one place at a time, I'd say this is a problem for them.
Point for point, marines are rather miserable on the tabletop.
And for being so smart, all the tactical marines left their chainswords in their locker room. That's pretty stupid to me.
In older rule sets they use to come with a combat knife.
Back in 4th edition your marine squads could take an apothecary in every squad. And you could deck out the sarge with artificer armor. You could also give your whole armor bionics.
The later editions have only made marines worse because of power creep.
Its funny you say that I took mostly tactical squads and I never lost a battle because I just held the line. I didn't lose a single squad in a tournament once. It was quite funny.
Asherian Command wrote: Problem again is that we are thinking space marines aren't capable of this. Space Marines are for all tenses andd purposes veterans of hundreds of wars and battles. Saying that they cannot calculate distance and wind is something a super human would not have any trouble doing. As they often are shown to process information at greater detail than a normal human being.
Again, this is not just about skill. For example, how does a space marine's skill and experience allow them to compensate for varying burn rates in the propellant of two different bolter rounds? You can't know that information until after the shell has left the gun, so it's just random error that the space marine can't do anything about. Same kind of thing with power armor: no amount of experience is going to let you avoid the speed/power vs. accuracy tradeoff. That's just controls 101, if you change the response of a machine to a given input in one direction (faster, less overshoot, less stead-state error, etc) you usually make it worse in some other area and the final engineering decision is a compromise. Since space marines are designed for close-range combat their power armor will almost inevitably strength and reaction time over precision. After all, it doesn't matter if a sword blow or bolter shot is an inch from the aim point, it's still going to kill the target.
{irrelevant stuff that doesn't answer my question}
That doesn't prove that marine optics are better than their starcraft equivalents, it's just a bunch of technobabble that says little more than "space marines have optics in their helmets". So it seems like your answer is in fact "SPACE MARINES ARE MORE AWESOME I LOVE MARINES!!!!".
40k has technology that makes us pale in comparision considering they can have someone who has blown apart limb from limb and still have them survive, means their medical technology is far superior to our own. Not to also forget that they have planet killing weaponry that reduces everything on a planet to ashes.
That's nice. I asked about your claim of "space marines have better optics". 40k medical technology and planet killers have nothing to do with this subject.
Heres a bolter bullet:
{pictures}
What's your point? I don't see what a fan-made picture of a bolter bullet (which doesn't seem to match the fluff provided by GW) has to do with anything.
And yet you continue to bring it up. Do not include it on the conversation at hand.
IOW, "we can only talk about these things when you agree with me".
on the other hand you can look at most starcraft vechiles and know they are mass produced and one of the reasons why they have fatal flaws. The Thor being massly outmatched by the Odin. And then the other vechiles such as the banshee being unable to target air units, yet being a stealth fighter has to rely on an highly unreliable stealth generator. Face it both universes sacrifice things in the name of cool.
That's nice, I wasn't talking about Starcraft at all there. The fact that Starcraft units may or may not be badly designed doesn't change the fact that 40k is a retro-future game with a thin layer of technology added to a WWII-era (or earlier!) universe.
in terms of scale, 40k isn't exactly a stellar example of weapon ranges. If a marine is say 10 feet tall (a bit high i admit) and is represented by a 2" model, then a bolter has a range of about 120 feet, or 40m.
the longest ranged weapon in 40k (that i can think of) is the Earthshaker with a 120" range, which would give it a range of about 200m
Compare that to lets say, a modern AS90 with its pretty nifty 155mm gun, and has a range of 35km, which translates to 40k as 1750 feet, or 21,000 inches. and that is 175 times the range of an earthshaker.
If you were to make a more reasoned comparison, then earthshakers would probably have comparable range to modern artillery, probably in the 15-20km range, certainly no less than 10km. and its equally probable that weapons in the 40k universe are designed to operate at ranges modern weapons operate at today.
Assault rifles are designed with engagements of up to 300m or so in mind (the vast majority of firefights occur at, or below this range) so i see no reason that a bolter wouldn't have that kind of reach, probably more given astartes have much better eyeball MK I's than normal humans and could probably hit a moving target much further away with a much more high powered weapon than the average infantryman can today.
A better comparison of weapon ranges, but still imperfect is epic scale battles. 6mm marines have a 50cm range (going by Space Marine), which is about 250-300m without crunching the numbers too seriously, with heavier weapons adding 50% onto that. there is still the issue of truly big guns having inadequate range, but at epic scale, an earthshaker can kiss most of the battlefield.
On the subject of killing a space marine. Being removed as a casualty in game doesn't mean that the space marine in question is actually dead, it just means he is a casualty, Wounded most likely, perhaps his armour is too badly damaged to continue. perhaps he has lost a limb, it certainly doesn't mean he is dead. Only a few weapons in 40k can actually kill a marine outright. Wounds are a very arbitrary metric. A normal space marine is 'killed' by a plasma round. a captain with the same armour will shrug it off like a champ
The reason that its a very difficult comparison to make is 40k doesn't really publish hard numbers, and when they do they tend to be laughable. a landraider has armour equivalent to 350mm or so of steel armour, which might seem a lot, its all round, certainly. and its AV-14 which is the best in the game (discounting fortifications). Compared to a modern MBT with its composite armour providing up to 1000mm of protection against certain rounds, and still being vulnerable to some weapons and, well, you have to laugh.
There is a reason the star wars versus star trek debate can be so lively, and that is because stats for ships and weapons and armour have been published in detail for both universes. When it comes to 40k all you have to go on are a few joke stats from sources that rarely agree, and the impossibly imbalanced representation of marines on the tabletop.
Personally, i think if you want to compare tabletop marines to everyone else, you should use the 'Movie Marine' stats, rather than the current C;SM stats (2000 points, 6-7 marines, and they stand a good chance of taking out 2000 points of whatever they are fighting with minimal casualties)
The table top rules are an abstraction. And there isn't a fixed ratio either.
I came up with a theory that range bands represent different distances.
So 0-6 might be 10-30 meters.
6-12 would be 100-200 meters.
12-24 would be 300-500 meters.
24-48 would be roughly around a Kilometer.
48-72 would be several kilometers.
Again, the table top is an abstraction. The distances given are certainly not relative to the physical model size nor are distances relative to each other.
Personally, I think the TT stats for SM are a good representation of them, stronger and faster than humans but not so much that they're unbeatable and undefeatable.
Asherian Command wrote: Problem again is that we are thinking space marines aren't capable of this. Space Marines are for all tenses andd purposes veterans of hundreds of wars and battles. Saying that they cannot calculate distance and wind is something a super human would not have any trouble doing. As they often are shown to process information at greater detail than a normal human being.
Again, this is not just about skill. For example, how does a space marine's skill and experience allow them to compensate for varying burn rates in the propellant of two different bolter rounds? You can't know that information until after the shell has left the gun, so it's just random error that the space marine can't do anything about. Same kind of thing with power armor: no amount of experience is going to let you avoid the speed/power vs. accuracy tradeoff. That's just controls 101, if you change the response of a machine to a given input in one direction (faster, less overshoot, less stead-state error, etc) you usually make it worse in some other area and the final engineering decision is a compromise. Since space marines are designed for close-range combat their power armor will almost inevitably strength and reaction time over precision. After all, it doesn't matter if a sword blow or bolter shot is an inch from the aim point, it's still going to kill the target.
I am pretty sure them being more intelligent than any normal human being, having super human abilities more than allows them to do so. Space marines are designed to do whatever the helk they want. The Raptors Chapter being a camo chapter that rarely gets into close combat. infact many chapters perfer ranged combat to close quarters.
Read the fluff my friend ^.^
{irrelevant stuff that doesn't answer my question}
That doesn't prove that marine optics are better than their starcraft equivalents, it's just a bunch of technobabble that says little more than "space marines have optics in their helmets". So it seems like your answer is in fact "SPACE MARINES ARE MORE AWESOME I LOVE MARINES!!!!".
Hahaha. Oh dear god I do hope your joking because that is all we have to go on. WE can't say what is better and what is not. Because remember that the technology in starcraft is very retro as well.
On a personal note 40k is not my favorite universe. Nor are space marines my favorite. I know when one group is superior to another. Such as the Marines from Old Man's war being superior to Spartans and Starcraft marines but being completely insuperior to space marines.
40k has technology that makes us pale in comparision considering they can have someone who has blown apart limb from limb and still have them survive, means their medical technology is far superior to our own. Not to also forget that they have planet killing weaponry that reduces everything on a planet to ashes.
That's nice. I asked about your claim of "space marines have better optics". 40k medical technology and planet killers have nothing to do with this subject.
That is an equalivency statement I suggest you look it up before commenting any further. But you lack this quite often and just rush in with out any idea and no support for your own claims.
As I have stated before this comes to a logical conclusion that their optics are just as advanced as 40k weapon technology is leagues ahead of their medical technology.
Heres a bolter bullet:
{pictures}
What's your point? I don't see what a fan-made picture of a bolter bullet (which doesn't seem to match the fluff provided by GW) has to do with anything.
Funny thing those are actually from white dwarves XD The bullet picture was made from a fan, and the other photo was in a white dwarf.
And yet you continue to bring it up. Do not include it on the conversation at hand.
IOW, "we can only talk about these things when you agree with me".
No more on the lines of. Why are you talking about this. This has nothing to do with the matter on hand. Stop acting high and mighty.
on the other hand you can look at most starcraft vechiles and know they are mass produced and one of the reasons why they have fatal flaws. The Thor being massly outmatched by the Odin. And then the other vechiles such as the banshee being unable to target air units, yet being a stealth fighter has to rely on an highly unreliable stealth generator. Face it both universes sacrifice things in the name of cool.
That's nice, I wasn't talking about Starcraft at all there. The fact that Starcraft units may or may not be badly designed doesn't change the fact that 40k is a retro-future game with a thin layer of technology added to a WWII-era (or earlier!) universe.
And? What does that have baring in this conversation about starcraft vs space marines?
If that has no baring in the conversation Don't bring it up. That is a side strike. What point is it to bring it up other than as a distraction to the thread?
madtankbloke wrote: in terms of scale, 40k isn't exactly a stellar example of weapon ranges. If a marine is say 10 feet tall (a bit high i admit) and is represented by a 2" model, then a bolter has a range of about 120 feet, or 40m.
the longest ranged weapon in 40k (that i can think of) is the Earthshaker with a 120" range, which would give it a range of about 200m
Compare that to lets say, a modern AS90 with its pretty nifty 155mm gun, and has a range of 35km, which translates to 40k as 1750 feet, or 21,000 inches. and that is 175 times the range of an earthshaker.
If you were to make a more reasoned comparison, then earthshakers would probably have comparable range to modern artillery, probably in the 15-20km range, certainly no less than 10km. and its equally probable that weapons in the 40k universe are designed to operate at ranges modern weapons operate at today. Assault rifles are designed with engagements of up to 300m or so in mind (the vast majority of firefights occur at, or below this range) so i see no reason that a bolter wouldn't have that kind of reach, probably more given astartes have much better eyeball MK I's than normal humans and could probably hit a moving target much further away with a much more high powered weapon than the average infantryman can today.
A better comparison of weapon ranges, but still imperfect is epic scale battles. 6mm marines have a 50cm range (going by Space Marine), which is about 250-300m without crunching the numbers too seriously, with heavier weapons adding 50% onto that. there is still the issue of truly big guns having inadequate range, but at epic scale, an earthshaker can kiss most of the battlefield.
On the subject of killing a space marine. Being removed as a casualty in game doesn't mean that the space marine in question is actually dead, it just means he is a casualty, Wounded most likely, perhaps his armour is too badly damaged to continue. perhaps he has lost a limb, it certainly doesn't mean he is dead. Only a few weapons in 40k can actually kill a marine outright. Wounds are a very arbitrary metric. A normal space marine is 'killed' by a plasma round. a captain with the same armour will shrug it off like a champ
The reason that its a very difficult comparison to make is 40k doesn't really publish hard numbers, and when they do they tend to be laughable. a landraider has armour equivalent to 350mm or so of steel armour, which might seem a lot, its all round, certainly. and its AV-14 which is the best in the game (discounting fortifications). Compared to a modern MBT with its composite armour providing up to 1000mm of protection against certain rounds, and still being vulnerable to some weapons and, well, you have to laugh.
There is a reason the star wars versus star trek debate can be so lively, and that is because stats for ships and weapons and armour have been published in detail for both universes. When it comes to 40k all you have to go on are a few joke stats from sources that rarely agree, and the impossibly imbalanced representation of marines on the tabletop.
Personally, i think if you want to compare tabletop marines to everyone else, you should use the 'Movie Marine' stats, rather than the current C;SM stats (2000 points, 6-7 marines, and they stand a good chance of taking out 2000 points of whatever they are fighting with minimal casualties)
I am pretty sure your numbers need to be increased by x35.
The armor that land raiders use might be far more effective and layered than our tanks. Lets not forget this is the year 40k meaning everything is far better and more well suited than right now. So our conventional weaponry might just bounce off it like a dodge ball hitting a wall of solid metal.
The Wise Dane wrote: Now, let's compare Guardsmen with Alliance Soldiers from Mass Effect and Stormtroooers from Star Wars
Guardsmen win. Why? Baneblades, Reaver Titans and Imperial navy. GG
Star Wars Storm Troopers lose based on how cruddy their armor is and how few of them there are compared to a regiment of imperial guardsmen.
Bobthehero wrote: Personally, I think the TT stats for SM are a good representation of them, stronger and faster than humans but not so much that they're unbeatable and undefeatable.
They're good for the purpose they serve, as stats for a battle game. But to properly represent them on the table top relative to everyone else's stats, basic tactical marine profiles would need to look like this.
WS:5
BS:5
Str:4
T:4
W:3
I:4
A:2
Ld:8
They'd also have FnP and Acute Senses.
They'd also cost 50ish points for just a guy with a Bolter and Bolt Pistol.
Asherian Command wrote: I am pretty sure them being more intelligent than any normal human being, having super human abilities more than allows them to do so. Space marines are designed to do whatever the helk they want. The Raptors Chapter being a camo chapter that rarely gets into close combat. infact many chapters perfer ranged combat to close quarters.
Sigh. It's like you didn't even bother reading what I posted before responding to it. Could you please stop doing that? Otherwise there's not much point in having a "discussion" with you.
WE can't say what is better and what is not.
Oh really? Because you seemed perfectly happy to do exactly that:
"The helmets that Space Marines wear have alot of special optics that make most starcraft technology look crappy in comparision."
Now could you please provide proof of this statement or concede defeat?
That is an equalivency statement I suggest you look it up before commenting any further. But you lack this quite often and just rush in with out any idea and no support for your own claims.
What? I have no idea what you're talking about here. You posted the bit about medical technology and planet killers in response to my request for proof of your claims about space marine optics being superior to Starcraft marine optics. And those things have nothing to do with the quality of helmet optics.
As I have stated before this comes to a logical conclusion that their optics are just as advanced as 40k weapon technology is leagues ahead of their medical technology.
No, that is absolutely NOT a conclusion. Being better in one area does NOT inevitably mean superiority in some other area. Technology doesn't work like that, different fields are independent of each other and there isn't some RTS-style tech tree that everyone follows. And this is especially true in 40k, where science and engineering are heresy and the Imperium is limited to repeating the same old recovered STC designs. So the Imperium could easily have medical technology tens of thousands of years ahead of its helmet optics, simply because a good medical STC library was recovered intact, while hemet optics are limited to a much older design.
Funny thing those are actually from white dwarves XD The bullet picture was made from a fan, and the other photo was in a white dwarf.
Yes, I was clearly talking about the fan-made drawing, not the WD scan. This still doesn't answer the question of why you think that a fan-made drawing (which doesn't even follow the fluff) is at all relevant in this discussion.
No more on the lines of. Why are you talking about this. This has nothing to do with the matter on hand. Stop acting high and mighty.
And, again, you were perfectly happy to talk about it as long as you were presenting your own opinion and nobody disagreed with you.
And? What does that have baring in this conversation about starcraft vs space marines?
It is a response to your claim that 40k isn't a "retro-future" universe.
The armor that land raiders use might be far more effective and layered than our tanks. Lets not forget this is the year 40k meaning everything is far better and more well suited than right now. So our conventional weaponry might just bounce off it like a dodge ball hitting a wall of solid metal.
I was refering to the stats on the free poster that was in WD when the LR kit was first released. The land raider does in fact have layered composite armour with adamantium in it, and while it is no doubt thinner than modern armour, the stat given is that the LR armour is that it is the equivalent of 350mm of homogeneous steel plate.
The problem Imperial tanks have is that armour is badly angled, in a lot of cases not angled at all. probably the only way a LR would 'bounce' a shot is if a shot from the front hit it a glancing blow on the side (or takes out the lascannon sponson). And that doesn't even take into consideration the massive weakspots (tracks, Heavy bolter, assault ramp) from the front.
If you do even a little reading into (modern) tank design you will quickly see the design of the imperial vehicles is incredibly backwards, and illustrates that while the LR looks pretty cool, it would be dead meat in a modern battle.
as to baneblades and other superheavies.... they would be great if the enemy had no artillery or airsupport. they are so huge that they are an easy target for artillery, so slow they can't maneuver to make themselves hard to hit by a plane, and so big that even if they did maneuver, they are so big it would be hard to miss. there is a reason the german Ratte never made it off the drawing board! Titans would be even harder to miss. sure they have void shields and super thick armour, but the sheer size of them means you would struggle to miss! one lucky (or well placed) hit from the front, and a warlord titan will just blow up!
but that's going off topic. Realistically, there is no real way to compare marines with Spartans or star craft marines. it is highly unlikely that they would ever meet on a battlefield, even if they were fighting each other. The job of the astartes isn't to lead frontal assaults (not since girlyman killed the legions) but rather to hit and fade, and strike vulnerable targets behind enemy lines. you let the grunts fight on the front lines.
The armor that land raiders use might be far more effective and layered than our tanks. Lets not forget this is the year 40k meaning everything is far better and more well suited than right now. So our conventional weaponry might just bounce off it like a dodge ball hitting a wall of solid metal.
I was refering to the stats on the free poster that was in WD when the LR kit was first released. The land raider does in fact have layered composite armour with adamantium in it, and while it is no doubt thinner than modern armour, the stat given is that the LR armour is that it is the equivalent of 350mm of homogeneous steel plate. The problem Imperial tanks have is that armour is badly angled, in a lot of cases not angled at all. probably the only way a LR would 'bounce' a shot is if a shot from the front hit it a glancing blow on the side (or takes out the lascannon sponson). And that doesn't even take into consideration the massive weakspots (tracks, Heavy bolter, assault ramp) from the front.
If you do even a little reading into (modern) tank design you will quickly see the design of the imperial vehicles is incredibly backwards, and illustrates that while the LR looks pretty cool, it would be dead meat in a modern battle.
as to baneblades and other superheavies.... they would be great if the enemy had no artillery or airsupport. they are so huge that they are an easy target for artillery, so slow they can't maneuver to make themselves hard to hit by a plane, and so big that even if they did maneuver, they are so big it would be hard to miss. there is a reason the german Ratte never made it off the drawing board! Titans would be even harder to miss. sure they have void shields and super thick armour, but the sheer size of them means you would struggle to miss! one lucky (or well placed) hit from the front, and a warlord titan will just blow up!
but that's going off topic. Realistically, there is no real way to compare marines with Spartans or star craft marines. it is highly unlikely that they would ever meet on a battlefield, even if they were fighting each other. The job of the astartes isn't to lead frontal assaults (not since girlyman killed the legions) but rather to hit and fade, and strike vulnerable targets behind enemy lines. you let the grunts fight on the front lines.
If things get bad you send the titan legions to deal with it. Making short work of the starcraft forces quite efficiently.
I am pretty sure though that with imperiums vast resources the Terran Dominion would be wiped from existence pretty quickly. As crusade fleets would necessarily wipe out the terran dominion in single swoop.
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pelicaniforce wrote: Hey Asherian Command, you know I'm no in this conversation and I don't have any problems with you, so can you tell me why your writing is so crazy?
The same reason why most people in here determine to tell me that my writing is crazy without pointing out what is so crazy about it. I rarely edit these posts. Because mostly this is a VS thread and I am hardly taking it seriously.
Bobthehero wrote:Personally, I think the TT stats for SM are a good representation of them, stronger and faster than humans but not so much that they're unbeatable and undefeatable.
I am sure you do, you play Guardsmen after all.
Grey Templar wrote:
Bobthehero wrote: Personally, I think the TT stats for SM are a good representation of them, stronger and faster than humans but not so much that they're unbeatable and undefeatable.
They're good for the purpose they serve, as stats for a battle game. But to properly represent them on the table top relative to everyone else's stats, basic tactical marine profiles would need to look like this.
WS:5
BS:5
Str:4
T:4
W:3
I:4
A:2
Ld:8
They'd also have FnP and Acute Senses.
They'd also cost 50ish points for just a guy with a Bolter and Bolt Pistol.
I quite like your stats, they seem far better than the current, but in order to put in truly fluffy stats the whole game would need an overhaul. The game breaks fast otherwise.
Matthew wrote: Do StarCraft marines have portable grenade launchers, or 3 hearts?
No, but they have C-14 rifles which shoots U-238 bullets, which is better than bolts, and they do not need 2 hearts, because one is enough when, your armor protects it efficiently.
And they never miss a shot, while 40k marines miss 1/3 of the time. So they are better.
Definite proof: ten Starcraft Space Marines are able to destroy a battlecruiser using only their C-14 rifles. Have you ever heard of ten 40k space marines destroying a battle cruiser equivalent, or even simply a thunderhawk, with just bolters? Hence the Starcraft marine wins!
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Asherian Command wrote: Yet starcraft marines are slaughtered in the hundreds by zerglings and hydralisks.
So I guess the 40k marines would be slaughtered by the thousands by zerglings and hydralisks.
Matthew wrote: Do StarCraft marines have portable grenade launchers, or 3 hearts?
No, but they have C-14 rifles which shoots U-238 bullets, which is better than bolts, and they do not need 2 hearts, because one is enough when, your armor protects it efficiently.
And they never miss a shot, while 40k marines miss 1/3 of the time. So they are better.
Definite proof: ten Starcraft Space Marines are able to destroy a battlecruiser using only their C-14 rifles. Have you ever heard of ten 40k space marines destroying a battle cruiser equivalent, or even simply a thunderhawk, with just bolters? Hence the Starcraft marine wins!
Matthew wrote: Do StarCraft marines have portable grenade launchers, or 3 hearts?
No, but they have C-14 rifles which shoots U-238 bullets, which is better than bolts, and they do not need 2 hearts, because one is enough when, your armor protects it efficiently.
And they never miss a shot, while 40k marines miss 1/3 of the time. So they are better.
Definite proof: ten Starcraft Space Marines are able to destroy a battlecruiser using only their C-14 rifles. Have you ever heard of ten 40k space marines destroying a battle cruiser equivalent, or even simply a thunderhawk, with just bolters? Hence the Starcraft marine wins!
I cannot fault your logic here.
O.o I had forgotten about that. In terms of fluff for starcraft though. Those cruisers are 700 meters big according to some people on many forms. I highly doubt that the guns in cinematics could do so. But there are alpha level pyskers that can bring whole armies to their knees.
And? What does that have baring in this conversation about starcraft vs space marines?
If that has no baring in the conversation Don't bring it up. That is a side strike. What point is it to bring it up other than as a distraction to the thread?
I think we should give 40k marines the award for being able to punch tanks to death though.
And? What does that have baring in this conversation about starcraft vs space marines?
If that has no baring in the conversation Don't bring it up. That is a side strike. What point is it to bring it up other than as a distraction to the thread?
I think we should give 40k marines the award for being able to punch tanks to death though.
Now as we go through stuff in terms of the fluff I think space marines win hands down. But in terms of gameplay... Marines still win. Orbital bombardment and sniping of all the leaders and deploy virus bombs.
Matthew wrote: Do StarCraft marines have portable grenade launchers, or 3 hearts?
No, but they have C-14 rifles which shoots U-238 bullets, which is better than bolts, and they do not need 2 hearts, because one is enough when, your armor protects it efficiently.
And they never miss a shot, while 40k marines miss 1/3 of the time. So they are better.
Definite proof: ten Starcraft Space Marines are able to destroy a battlecruiser using only their C-14 rifles. Have you ever heard of ten 40k space marines destroying a battle cruiser equivalent, or even simply a thunderhawk, with just bolters? Hence the Starcraft marine wins!
No, just no.
Thats because the game uses a simple hitpoint vs damage output mechanic. Its far worse than even the 40k system at portraying realistic damage.
Anything in that game can kill anything given enough time and if left unmolested. Its a game, its therefore an abstraction.
Also, a marine with just his fists could disable a space ship if he was on it. he'd just need to start ripping out wires and smashing important looking stuff. He'd do it eventually. A Thunderhawk would be trivial.
Do you have evidence for this, or are you just assuming it so that marines don't look bad?
But there are alpha level pyskers that can bring whole armies to their knees.
Didn't you just finish complaining about how talking about anything but the three specific "space marine" types was off-topic and shouldn't be allowed here? Your comment about alpha-level pyskers is about as relevant (by your own standards) as talking about how a single Culture warship would slaughter the entire 40k universe.
Well starcraft marines are out. They are just normal dudes.
Spartans have a good chance since they have such a variety of skills and weapons. I would put Space marines in a close second, this is only because you said with blotters. The spartans would assess the situation and all take snipers and be home for afternoon training.
DarkLink wrote: We really don't have any actual comparable information. The only thing we actually know is that Spartans are much faster and stronger than unaltered humans, and that Astartes are much stronger and faster than unaltered humans, and that each wears a suit of power armor that similarly makes them much faster and stronger than they already are. Especially considering that plasma weapons kill Astartes as easily as they seem to kill Spartans when both are in full armor, about the only reasonably quantifiable comparison you can actually make and actually support in a meaningful way is that bolters have more firepower in general than the Spartan's standard small arms. Any supposition beyond that comes down purely to how much of a fanboy you are of the respective faction.
Covenant Plasma Pistols are objectively far far weaker than 40k Plasma pistols.
40k Plasma can put holes in battle tanks. The Covenant Plasma pistol is the basic weapon of grunts and it can barely scratch the paint on a glorified ATV.
According to video game logic, which isn't much of logic to go on when making comparisons. What we would need is solid background info from the creator of Halo, and what he/she envisioned for the lore. We really don't have any idea of just how powerful Covenant weaponry is. The games really do a piss poor job of explaining things. A fuel rod cannon for instance seems like it should blow things up or worse. But in the video games, your ATV just flips all around and takes no damage (until later installments). But of course, the damage isn't really flushed out due to video game logic...they won't blow up your vehicle in one hit due to it being...a video game. No accurate representation.
Marines never shot up. They can't kill a battle cruiser. Starcraft marines cannot do that. Except in game.
But there are alpha level pyskers that can bring whole armies to their knees.
Didn't you just finish complaining about how talking about anything but the three specific "space marine" types was off-topic and shouldn't be allowed here? Your comment about alpha-level pyskers is about as relevant (by your own standards) as talking about how a single Culture warship would slaughter the entire 40k universe.
\
Alpha level pyskers are in the realm of possibity and live in the 40k universe. Did any your examples? no? Then no, it is not related.
Any thing that is outside of the current genres or ideas or franchises can be used. Or what has been detailed by the OP. If you want to make your own thread please do so.
As pyskers are in 40k.
For one a culture ship isn't even from 40k. An alpha level pysker is. Though Extremely rare. And Exceedingly dangerous.
See my logic makes sense. Yours sadly in this argument does not. It is way off the beaten path and one that should not be taken as it has no relevance in this debate what so ever. Mobile Infantry, Supreme Commander those last I checked where no where to be seen in 40k or Starcraft or Halo.
Marines never shot up. They can't kill a battle cruiser. Starcraft marines cannot do that. Except in game.
Wait, let me get this straight: your "proof" that marine rifles can't hurt a battlecruiser is that the marines in that scene never shot at a friendly battlecruiser?
Alpha level pyskers are in the realm of possibity and live in the 40k universe. Did any your examples? no? Then no, it is completely related.
As pyskers are in 40k all the time.
For one a culture ship is even from 40k. An alpha level pysker.
See my logic makes sense. Yours sadly in this argument does not
Are you drunk? Honestly? Because you aren't even making any sense anymore. Alpha-level psykers have nothing to do with space marines, and are just as off-topic (by your own standards) as Culture drones or Starship Troopers.
luky7dayz wrote: Well starcraft marines are out. They are just normal dudes.
Spartans have a good chance since they have such a variety of skills and weapons. I would put Space marines in a close second, this is only because you said with blotters. The spartans would assess the situation and all take snipers and be home for afternoon training.
And the Sniper Rifles would do jack all against the Marines armor. The UNSC, for all of it's blinky lights, is one of the most poorly thought out human faction in sci-fi... ever.
Doom marine is the best, then Starcraft marines, then… well, I do not know enough about spartans, so either 40k marines or Spartans.
Grey Templar wrote: Anything in that game can kill anything given enough time and if left unmolested.
No. An immortal, or a zealot, for instance, will never be able to even damage a battlecruiser. And iirc, 12 marines against a battlecruiser, the marines will win even if the battlecruiser strikes back, when at full upgrade both. 10 is a closer deal.
Grey Templar wrote: Also, a marine with just his fists could disable a space ship if he was on it. he'd just need to start ripping out wires and smashing important looking stuff. He'd do it eventually. A Thunderhawk would be trivial.
Yeah. Starcraft marines are able to destroy thunderhawk with their fists. How badass is that?
Grey Templar wrote: Also, a marine with just his fists could disable a space ship if he was on it. he'd just need to start ripping out wires and smashing important looking stuff. He'd do it eventually. A Thunderhawk would be trivial.
Yeah. Starcraft marines are able to destroy thunderhawk with their fists. How badass is that?
Well, there was one marine, who had his neural resocialization process reversed by a Protoss. The guy sabotaged the life support system of a battlecruiser. So technically it would be possible for a marine to take down a big ship.
That video from Deathbattles was funded by microsoft, and was complete nonsense.
The Doomguy fought off an invasion from hell wearing what is basically a flak jacket. The other guys need power armor.
The Doomguy can carry 7 weapons and still run. Can the other marines do that?
Not to mention that the Doomguy punches demons and gak to death with his fists. Grey Knights need a halberd.
Read the hammer of demons. A Grey Knight was able to beat to a pulp an actual demon. Those are different types of demons from a completely different universe where guns somehow are able to kill demons. We have no idea what the actual demons are like.
For all we know those could be aliens from a dimension from hell.
Plus what the hell does doomguy have to do with this discussion?
I am really sorry but lets face it the doomguy is not involved with this discussion. This is starcraft marines vs space marines vs spartans.
Doom marine is the best, then Starcraft marines, then… well, I do not know enough about spartans, so either 40k marines or Spartans.
Nope space marines still win because they face demons, chaos space marines, and make the zerglings fall flat. Now what I would like to see is the tyranids vs the flood vs the zerg.
It would be so cool. Just endless battering and parasites countering parasites.
I am pretty sure according to the lore the starcraft marines can't bring down a battle cruiser. Otherwise they wouldn't of retreated against the dominion fleet. they would of just deployed marines on the side of the hyperion instead of running?
No. An immortal, or a zealot, for instance, will never be able to even damage a battlecruiser. And iirc, 12 marines against a battlecruiser, the marines will win even if the battlecruiser strikes back, when at full upgrade both. 10 is a closer deal.
According to gameplay a single space marine squad can take down a baneblade. According to gameplay a single drop pod can launch people in the air. instead of CRUSHING Them.
Yeah. Starcraft marines are able to destroy thunderhawk with their fists. How badass is that?
Doubt it. They had trouble fighting a bunch of zerglings.
See the problem with your logic is that because they can shoot down ships. Yet it has been shown that they can't in the cinematics and lore. Hey look your full of it.
When we have this....
Well, there was one marine, who had his neural resocialization process reversed by a Protoss. The guy sabotaged the life support system of a battlecruiser. So technically it would be possible for a marine to take down a big ship.
Eh....
I remember a single Raven Guard being able to take down an entire battleship by himself.
We have marines being jetsoned into space without their helmets and surviving! Starcraft marines are just human. If it came to a fist fight the space marines would still live and win. Tactically the space marines win due to how vast their resources are. Logisitically they win. Its a joke to even think that the starcraft marines win.
He is the bestestest marines of them all, times infinity, plus one. Admit it.
Asherian Command wrote: Nope space marines still win because they face demons, chaos space marines, and make the zerglings fall flat.
A zergling would kill a 40k space marine one on one.
Asherian Command wrote: I am pretty sure according to the lore the starcraft marines can't bring down a battle cruiser. Otherwise they wouldn't of retreated against the dominion fleet. they would of just deployed marines on the side of the hyperion instead of running?
There were too many dominion marines.
Asherian Command wrote: See the problem with your logic is that because they can shoot down ships. Yet it has been shown that they can't in the cinematics and lore.
He is the bestestest marines of them all, times infinity, plus one. Admit it.
The greatest marine to ever live is John Perry from Old Mans War. Who took down an entire alien armada and civilization. By himself.
Don't believe me? Read the book series XD. They took down ships sometimes with their weapons. Giant Aliens the size of small frigates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man%27s_War
Asherian Command wrote: Nope space marines still win because they face demons, chaos space marines, and make the zerglings fall flat.
A zergling would kill a 40k space marine one on one.
I disagree. Considering a marine can kill a termgaunt pretty easily. Zergling is a much smaller termagaunt.
Asherian Command wrote: I am pretty sure according to the lore the starcraft marines can't bring down a battle cruiser. Otherwise they wouldn't of retreated against the dominion fleet. they would of just deployed marines on the side of the hyperion instead of running?
There were too many dominion marines.
Oh god your logic is hilarious..
Asherian Command wrote: See the problem with your logic is that because they can shoot down ships. Yet it has been shown that they can't in the cinematics and lore.
It has never been shown .
Nope. But neither has it been shown that they could take one down in terms of lore of cinematics. Ingame mechanics don't count. Because we have a space marine fall from a moon to the ground and survive. While pummeling a terminator with his bare hands.
Martel732 wrote: Tell the the next Eldar player I play that "in game mechanics" don't count.
We are not using ingame mechanics otherwise marines would win no matter what.
That's about the most insane thing I've heard for a while. Please, continue.
Marines are too embarrassing on the table top to remotely take their fluff seriously. Because the true fluff is them being gunned down mercilessly by guardsmen with plasma guns. Big gun, cheap dude. Works every time.
Martel732 wrote: Tell the the next Eldar player I play that "in game mechanics" don't count.
We are not using ingame mechanics otherwise marines would win no matter what.
That's about the most insane thing I've heard for a while. Please, continue.
Marines are too embarrassing on the table top to remotely take their fluff seriously. Because the true fluff is them being gunned down mercilessly by guardsmen with plasma guns. Big gun, cheap dude. Works every time.
Not always. If you have read a few sci-fi books and certain situations where the more advanced soldiers slaughter entire populations.
See the more you say don't read the fluff the more I will reference the fluff.
You keep using other sources from starcraft fluff and doom fluff. So it is only fair I take from the 40k fluff.
Stop plugging your ears and say NO THOSE Don't count and just accept it. The Adeptus Astartes win.
Hybrid and you are just drawing out this thread because you are both trolls and have been known to do this. So stop arguing against the entire idea you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
I already said the fluff Astartes win, but I don't consider those the legitimate Astartes. I consider the tabletop Astartes the real ones, because I have spent many more hours playing than reading GW's awful fiction. The tabletop Astartes lose to practically any other sci-fi army because they are awful.
Martel732 wrote: I already said the fluff Astartes win, but I don't consider those the legitimate Astartes. I consider the tabletop Astartes the real ones, because I have spent many more hours playing than reading GW's awful fiction. The tabletop Astartes lose to practically any other sci-fi army because they are awful.
The tabletop is not Representative of 40k. Its basically the tool to tell stories. I played both the table top and read the fluff for 10 years.
I used the tabletop for a while to help write my fluff. Using it to craft a narrative. Often playing against my opponents quite purposefully.
It was actually more fun and my opponents actually had just as much fun when I did crazy things with my troops. By adding a random RNG event for my opponent.
Often times I allowed my younger opponents to bring back entire squads. Sometimes we also had marines that stayed in cover in the cities of death rule set fight in cover for turn and turns and be shot by titans and still survive an explosion from a void missile pretty much ensured me that the tabletop you really can't trust it.
In terms of gameplay and the tabletop marines becoming inferior is because of Power Creep it happens when a game company has no idea how to make rulesets or gameplay work.
Considering that I highly doubt marines can randomly comeback to life on the board. The Tabletop really doesn't count.
The tabletop is the ONLY thing that counts to me. The fluff in 2nd ed had Marneus Calgar taking on Hive Tyrants, whereas in game, he couldn't even land a hit on one. Laughable.
Martel732 wrote: I already said the fluff Astartes win, but I don't consider those the legitimate Astartes. I consider the tabletop Astartes the real ones, because I have spent many more hours playing than reading GW's awful fiction. The tabletop Astartes lose to practically any other sci-fi army because they are awful.
Dude, we are comparing fluff Space Marines vs fluff Starcraft Marines vs fluff Halo.
The problem with fluff, just like in a versus comic book is that the winner is whomever the author favors. If I'm writing the story, I just throw other authors' ideas about Astartes out, and make up whatever I like.
Martel732 wrote: The tabletop is the ONLY thing that counts to me. The fluff in 2nd ed had Marneus Calgar taking on Hive Tyrants, whereas in game, he couldn't even land a hit on one. Laughable.
Ummm Calgar also killed an Avatar of Khaine in 5th edition. And he also took out a few demons in 5th and 4th edition.
Calgar in 4th edition and 5th edition on the tabletop he could go toe to toe with an Avatar of Khaine and a Hive Tyrant.
Its quite interesting really that you say that. Yet you continue to post on this thread.
Martel732 wrote: The problem with fluff, just like in a versus comic book is that the winner is whomever the author favors. If I'm writing the story, I just throw other authors' ideas about Astartes out, and make up whatever I like.
Well. Sadly that is where things happen. Its called plot armor and plot convenience.
It happens and we can see that in most books. Except that doesn't happen. Good writers know how to kill characters and when not to. Because thats how stories are written.
We have knights in certain books being cut down by a small child. And other books a knight kills a dragon and kills an entire army by himself.
See the thing is that contradictions happen all the time in fiction.
Yeah, because they changed the rules. Whereas Calgar has gotten better since 2nd, the average marine has gotten worse and worse since 3rd.
The problem is that really dislike retro-future or gothic or whatever you want to call it settings. I find all the participants in the 40K universe to be incredibly dim-witted and generally boring.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, because they changed the rules. Whereas Calgar has gotten better since 2nd, the average marine has gotten worse and worse since 3rd.
The problem is that really dislike retro-future or gothic or whatever you want to call it settings. I find all the participants in the 40K universe to be incredibly dim-witted and generally boring.
Ummm 5th edition marines were extremely strong. Same with 4th edition. 4th Edition Marines were so powerful that could sometimes not even lose one.
You know how? Feel No Pain. Think about necrons except with space marine stat lines and having a reroll on every single save.
Space marines in 4th and 5th were just stupidly powerful.
Thats how I know when someone is making their stuff up.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, because they changed the rules. Whereas Calgar has gotten better since 2nd, the average marine has gotten worse and worse since 3rd.
The problem is that really dislike retro-future or gothic or whatever you want to call it settings. I find all the participants in the 40K universe to be incredibly dim-witted and generally boring.
Ummm 5th edition marines were extremely strong. Same with 4th edition. 4th Edition Marines were so powerful that could sometimes not even lose one.
You know how? Feel No Pain. Think about necrons except with space marine stat lines and having a reroll on every single save.
Space marines in 4th and 5th were just stupidly powerful.
Thats how I know when someone is making their stuff up.
I don't know about 4th, but in 5th, the actual marines themselves were a bad joke. They were just life support systems to get razorbacks. I had army-wide FNP in 5th with BA and it wasn't that impressive.
Martel732 wrote: Unforunately, Calgar still fears death by 100 lasguns, just like every other low toughness model. Not very fluffy, that problem.
Doing the math calgar has a 90% chance to survive a hundred lasgun shots.
Okay, then a real guard list: 30 plasmas. You get the point.
AP2
30 plasmas
15% chance survival, not auto kill though. Though rarely do actually run a Calgar by himself. So Honor guard have two wounds each and will get in the way to help him survive. So
Survival increased to 66%
]The statistical average from 100 lasguns in rapid fire range with no orders is 5.28 wounds. That means there is at least a 70% chance he will die.
Statistically he has a 85% chance of survival. AS you have to include his reroll, and his save is a +2. Lasguns do not have an ap of 1 or 2 they have ap 5.
Your view of how marines work in general seems to be stuck in 4th ed as well. There are entire threads about how bad tactical marines, terminators, and boltguns are for the points.
Martel732 wrote: Your view of how marines work in general seems to be stuck in 4th ed as well. There are entire threads about how bad tactical marines, terminators, and boltguns are for the points.
Well terminators in general have never been good even in 4th and 5th.
Tactical marines are not as good as stern guard. Infact sternguard spam was very regular in 5th edition.
In 4th edition I rarely used tactical marines. As I often used sternguard and vanguard to do more damage than tactical marines.
Martel732 wrote: I already said the fluff Astartes win, but I don't consider those the legitimate Astartes. I consider the tabletop Astartes the real ones, because I have spent many more hours playing than reading GW's awful fiction. The tabletop Astartes lose to practically any other sci-fi army because they are awful.
Dude, we are comparing fluff Space Marines vs fluff Starcraft Marines vs fluff Halo.
Well, if we're going on fluff: i saw an anthology movie set in the halo universe, where a clumsy spartan fell out of low orbit (repeatedly) onto a planet, took minimal (if any) damage and was able to complete his mission (with the help of a small child iirc). So, if game mechanics are out, there's the new benchmark.
Martel732 wrote: I already said the fluff Astartes win, but I don't consider those the legitimate Astartes. I consider the tabletop Astartes the real ones, because I have spent many more hours playing than reading GW's awful fiction. The tabletop Astartes lose to practically any other sci-fi army because they are awful.
Dude, we are comparing fluff Space Marines vs fluff Starcraft Marines vs fluff Halo.
Well, if we're going on fluff: i saw an anthology movie set in the halo universe, where a clumsy spartan fell out of low orbit (repeatedly) onto a planet, took minimal (if any) damage and was able to complete his mission (with the help of a small child iirc). So, if game mechanics are out, there's the new benchmark.
Ummm. According to Ultramarine movie a chaplain has a super power.
Space marines don’t just suck on the tabletop. In fluff too they die to embarrassing stuff like cavemen armed with wooden spears. I think their performance could go from terra-bad, to mediocre if they just abandoned all that pointless close combat nonsense.
Redcruisair wrote: Space marines don’t just suck on the tabletop. In fluff too they die to embarrassing stuff like cavemen armed with wooden spears. I think their performance could go from terra-bad, to mediocre if they just abandoned all that pointless close combat nonsense.
Uhh could you source that?
Instead of just coming and declaring. Yeah Cavemen killed a marine. Umm if I recall correctly. In starcraft, a bunch of marines got killed by an avalenche. In halo a bunch of spartans got killed by a single elite.
BlaxicanX wrote: The ability for SPARTANS to win depends on their weaponry, as UNSC weapons are vastly less powerful then bolters and Imperial tech.
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected
Spartans have displayed superior durability feats to Marines.
They're ultimately let down by their equipment. And the Astartes biological enhancements are superior. Oh, and I believe it's Heroic that's the canon difficulty according to Bungie.
BlaxicanX wrote: The ability for SPARTANS to win depends on their weaponry, as UNSC weapons are vastly less powerful then bolters and Imperial tech.
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected
Spartans have displayed superior durability feats to Marines.
Not to mention that there's nothing to stop a Spartan from picking up a dead Astartes weapon, which cannot be said for the astartes due to their ridiculous mindset about alien technology.
BlaxicanX wrote: The ability for SPARTANS to win depends on their weaponry, as UNSC weapons are vastly less powerful then bolters and Imperial tech.
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected
Spartans have displayed superior durability feats to Marines.
Not to mention that there's nothing to stop a Spartan from picking up a dead Astartes weapon, which cannot be said for the astartes due to their ridiculous mindset about alien technology.
Those are human weapons. They wouldn't flinch to pick up a weapon. IE Ordo Xenos Deathwatch use Xenos Weapons quite often in their battles against other xenos. Well according to FFG.
A spartan would get slaughtered before he took down a single astartes. As Astartes don't go off by themselves.
BlaxicanX wrote: The ability for SPARTANS to win depends on their weaponry, as UNSC weapons are vastly less powerful then bolters and Imperial tech.
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected
Spartans have displayed superior durability feats to Marines.
And the Astartes biological enhancements are superior.
But what are their biological enchantments good for? A bullet to the head is just as lethal to a space marine, as it is to a none-enchanted human.
Not really. A space marine and a normal human can actually survive a bullet wound. The most lethal you can do to a human is shooting their heart. A space marine even a bullet to the head wouldn't actually make them have a bad headache. A spartan's unsc weaponry is actually not that advanced as to modern day weaponry.
BlaxicanX wrote: The ability for SPARTANS to win depends on their weaponry, as UNSC weapons are vastly less powerful then bolters and Imperial tech.
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected
Spartans have displayed superior durability feats to Marines.
And the Astartes biological enhancements are superior.
But what are their biological enchantments good for? A bullet to the head is just as lethal to a space marine, as it is to a none-enchanted human.
You're forgetting that space marine skeletons are much much stronger than normal human skeletons.
Their bones are not just calcium carbonate, but also contain ceramic compounds similar to the ceramite that makes up their armor. Their bones are also much thicker than a normal humans.
The Halo Battle Rifle's stated stats are worse than a modern M-16. And unless you hit them in the eye you're really just going to give them a nice scar, and even then the marine is perfectly capable of functioning with just one eye.
Thats assuming he isn't wearing his helmet on top of that.
Also, never assume head shots. Real soldiers aim for center mass.
BlaxicanX wrote: The ability for SPARTANS to win depends on their weaponry, as UNSC weapons are vastly less powerful then bolters and Imperial tech.
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected
Spartans have displayed superior durability feats to Marines.
And the Astartes biological enhancements are superior.
But what are their biological enchantments good for? A bullet to the head is just as lethal to a space marine, as it is to a none-enchanted human.
Not true. Spartans may be resistant to bullets since their bones are actually hardened but I don't know if that works against military grade rounds to the head. Space Marines have a similar enhancement called the Ossmodula which actually makes their chest bullet proof. I would assume it would make his head bullet resistant but I can't say for certain.
Not true. Spartans may be resistant to bullets since their bones are actually hardened but I don't know if that works against military grade rounds to the head. Space Marines have a similar enhancement called the Ossmodula which actually makes their chest bullet proof. I would assume it would make his head bullet resistant but I can't say for certain.
That's the enhancement which also means they can't breathe, right? On account of the fact that they'd have to break open their ribcage in order for the diaphragm to be able to work properly.
Not true. Spartans may be resistant to bullets since their bones are actually hardened but I don't know if that works against military grade rounds to the head. Space Marines have a similar enhancement called the Ossmodula which actually makes their chest bullet proof. I would assume it would make his head bullet resistant but I can't say for certain.
That's the enhancement which also means they can't breathe, right? On account of the fact that they'd have to break open their ribcage in order for the diaphragm to be able to work properly.
Lungs can still expand down into the stomach. I would also assume that some minor alteration is made to the lungs themselves.
Not true. Spartans may be resistant to bullets since their bones are actually hardened but I don't know if that works against military grade rounds to the head. Space Marines have a similar enhancement called the Ossmodula which actually makes their chest bullet proof. I would assume it would make his head bullet resistant but I can't say for certain.
That's the enhancement which also means they can't breathe, right? On account of the fact that they'd have to break open their ribcage in order for the diaphragm to be able to work properly.
No they still breathe they have a different type of lung. Infact there lungs are EXTREMELY efficent. There heart beats would probably be around a resting of 40-60 but with both hearts we would get a heart beat of 120. What does this mean it means that they have a more efficient heart than a olympian. You know how captain america can run a mile in less than 30 seconds. A space marine can probably run a mile in 25 seconds.
Secondary Heart
Phase 1: This simplest and most self-sufficient of implants allows a Space Marine to survive his other heart being damaged or destroyed, and to survive in low oxygen environments. Not just a back-up, the secondary heart can boost the blood-flow around the Marine's body.[1][2a][3]
Ossmodula
Phase 2: A small, complex, tubular organ, the ossmodula secretes hormones that both affect the ossification of the skeleton and encourages the forming bone growths to absorb ceramic-based chemicals that are laced into the Marine's diet.[1][2a][3] This drastically alters the way a Space Marine's bones grow and develop. Two years after this implant is first put in the subject's long bones will have increased in size and strength (along with most other bones), and the rib cage will have been fused into a solid mass of bulletproof, interlocking plates.
Biscopea
Phase 3: This small, circular organ is inserted into the chest cavity and releases hormones that vastly increase muscle growth throughout the marine's body. It also serves to form the hormonal basis for many of the later implants.
Haemastamen
Phase 4: Implanted into the main circulatory system, this tiny implant not only increases the haemoglobin content of the subject's blood, making it more efficient at carrying oxygen around the body and making the subject's blood a bright red, it also serves to monitor and control the actions of the phase 2 and phase 3 implants.[1][2a][3]
Larraman's Organ
Phase 5: A liver-shaped organ about the size of a golf-ball, this implant is placed within the chest cavity and connected to the circulatory system. It generates and controls 'Larraman cells' which are released into the blood stream if the recipient is wounded. They attach themselves to leucocytes in the blood and are carried to the site of the wound, where upon contact with air they form a near instant patch of scar tissue, sealing any wounds the Space Marine may suffer.
Catalepsean Node
Phase 6: Implanted into the back of the brain, this pea-sized organ influences the circadian rhythms of sleep and the body's response to sleep deprivation. If deprived of sleep, the catalepsean node cuts in. The node allows a Marine to sleep and remain awake at the same time by switching off areas of his brain sequentially. This process cannot replace sleep entirely, but increases the Marines survivability by allowing perception of the environment while resting[1][2a][3]. This means that a Space Marine needs no more than 4 hours of sleep a day, and can potentially go for 2 weeks without any sleep at all.
Preomnor
Phase 7: This is essentially a pre-stomach that can neutralise otherwise poisonous or indigestible foods. No actual digestion takes place in the preomnor, as it acts as a decontamination chamber placed before the natural stomach in the body's system and can be isolated from the rest of the digestive tract in order to contain particularly troublesome intake.[1][2a][3]
Omophagea
Phase 8: This implant allows a Space Marine to 'learn by eating'. It is situated in the spinal cord but is actually part of the brain. Four nerve bundles are implanted connecting the spine and the stomach wall. Able to 'read' or absorb genetic material consumed by the marine, the omophagea transmits the gained information to the Marine's brain as a set of memories or experiences. It is the presence of this organ which has led to the various flesh-eating and blood-drinking rituals for which the Astartes are famous, as well as giving names to chapters such as the Blood Drinkers and Flesh Tearers. Over time, mutations in this implant have given some chapters unnatural craving for blood or flesh.[1][2a][3]
Multi-lung
Phase 9: This additional lung activates when a Space Marine needs to breathe in low-oxygen or poisoned atmospheres, and even water. The natural lungs are closed off by a sphincter muscle associated with the multi-lung and the implanted organ takes over breathing operations. It has highly efficient toxin dispersal systems.[1][2a][3] Occulobe
Phase 10: This implant sits at the base of the brain, and provides hormonal and genetic stimuli which enable a Marine's eyes to respond to optic-therapy. This in turn allows the Apothecaries to make adjustments to the growth patterns of the eye and the light-receptive retinal cells - the result being that Space Marines have far superior vision to normal humans, and can see in low-light conditions almost as well as in daylight.[1][2a][3]
Lyman's Ear
Phase 11: Not only does this implant make a Space Marine immune from dizziness or motion sickness but also allows Space Marines to consciously filter out and enhance certain sounds. The Lyman's Ear completely replaces a Marine's original ear. It is externally indistinguishable from a normal human ear.
Sus-an Membrane
Phase 12: Initially implanted above the brain, this membrane eventually merges with the recipient's entire brain. Ineffective without follow-up chemical therapy and training, but with sufficient training a Space Marine can use this implant to enter a state of suspended animation, consciously or as an automatic reaction to extreme trauma, keeping the Marine alive for years, even if he has suffered otherwise mortal wounds. Only the appropriate chemical therapy or auto-suggestion can revive a Marine from this state. The longest recorded period spent in suspended animation was undertaken by Brother Silas Err of the Dark Angels, who was revived after 567 years.[1][2a][3]
Melanchromic Organ
Phase 13: This implant controls the amount of melanin in a Marine's skin. Exposure to high levels of sunlight will result in the Marine's skin darkening to compensate. It also protects the Marine from other forms of radiation.[1][2a][3]
Oolitic Kidney
Phase 14: In conjunction with the secondary heart this implant allows a Space Marine to filter his blood very quickly, rendering him immune to most poisons. This action comes at a price, however, as this emergency detoxification usually renders the Marine unconscious while his blood is circulated at high speed. The organ's everyday function is to monitor the entire circulatory system and allow other organs to function effectively.[1][2a][3]
Neuroglottis
Phase 15: This enhances a Space Marine's sense of taste to such a high degree that he can identify many common chemicals by taste alone. A Marine can even track down his target by taste.
Mucranoid
Phase 16: This implant allows a Space Marine to sweat a substance that coats the skin and offers resistance to extreme heat and cold and can even provide some protection for the marine in a vacuum. This can only be activated by outside treatment, and is common when Space Marines are expected to be fighting in vacuum.
Betcher's Gland
Phase 17: Consists of two identical glands, implanted either into the lower lip, alongside the salivary glands or into the hard palette. The gland works in a similar way to the poison gland of venomous reptiles by synthesizing and storing deadly poison, which the Marines themselves are immune to due to the gland's presence. This allows a Space Marine to spit a blinding contact poison. The poison is also corrosive and can even burn away strong metals given sufficient time.
Progenoids
Phase 18: There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck and the other within the chest cavity. These glands are vitally important and represent the future of the Chapter, as the only way new gene-seed can be produced is by reproducing it within the bodies of the Marines themselves. This is the implant's only purpose. The glands absorb genetic material from the other implanted organs. When they have matured each gland will have developed a single gene-seed corresponding to each of the zygotes which have been implanted into the Marine.
These take time (5 years in the first case, 10 in the latter)[1][2a][3] to mature into gene-seed. The gene-seed can then be extracted and used to create more Space Marines.
Black Carapace
Phase 19: The most distinctive implant, it resembles a film of black plastic that is implanted directly beneath the skin of the Marine's torso in sheets. It hardens on the outside and sends invasive neural bundles into the Marine's body. After the organ has matured the recipient is then fitted with neural sensors and interface points cut into the carapace's surface.[1][2a][3] This allows a Space Marine to interface directly with his Power Armour.
Knowing this information we also can infer that the Space Marines are more efficient and battle worn than most of the Spartans could ever be.
Infact the Marine Implementation process takes around 4 years to complete.
Not true. Spartans may be resistant to bullets since their bones are actually hardened but I don't know if that works against military grade rounds to the head. Space Marines have a similar enhancement called the Ossmodula which actually makes their chest bullet proof. I would assume it would make his head bullet resistant but I can't say for certain.
That's the enhancement which also means they can't breathe, right? On account of the fact that they'd have to break open their ribcage in order for the diaphragm to be able to work properly.
Lungs can still expand down into the stomach. I would also assume that some minor alteration is made to the lungs themselves.
There lungs are designed to be a lot more efficient as well.
Not true. Spartans may be resistant to bullets since their bones are actually hardened but I don't know if that works against military grade rounds to the head. Space Marines have a similar enhancement called the Ossmodula which actually makes their chest bullet proof. I would assume it would make his head bullet resistant but I can't say for certain.
That's the enhancement which also means they can't breathe, right? On account of the fact that they'd have to break open their ribcage in order for the diaphragm to be able to work properly.
Lungs can still expand down into the stomach. I would also assume that some minor alteration is made to the lungs themselves.
Then that would involve moving the whole diaphragm, considering it goes above and around the stomach, liver etc.
Considering that it also plays a part in other bodily functions such as urination and bowel movements I think it would be incredibly idiotic to mess with it as it would require the stomach to be moved completely along with the bladder (and by connection the kidneys) unless you wanted space marines who couldn't go to the toilet.
Not true. Spartans may be resistant to bullets since their bones are actually hardened but I don't know if that works against military grade rounds to the head. Space Marines have a similar enhancement called the Ossmodula which actually makes their chest bullet proof. I would assume it would make his head bullet resistant but I can't say for certain.
That's the enhancement which also means they can't breathe, right? On account of the fact that they'd have to break open their ribcage in order for the diaphragm to be able to work properly.
Lungs can still expand down into the stomach. I would also assume that some minor alteration is made to the lungs themselves.
Then that would involve moving the whole diaphragm, considering it goes above and around the stomach, liver etc.
Considering that it also plays a part in other bodily functions such as urination and bowel movements I think it would be incredibly idiotic to mess with it as it would require the stomach to be moved completely along with the bladder (and by connection the kidneys) unless you wanted space marines who couldn't go to the toilet.
Well considering how advanced it is to make a space marine in the first place. I am pretty sure that a space marines physiology is well beyond that of a humans. Seeing how they actually do go to the bathroom.
Asherian Command wrote: The greatest marine to ever live is John Perry from Old Mans War. Who took down an entire alien armada and civilization. By himself.
Don't believe me? Read the book series XD. They took down ships sometimes with their weapons. Giant Aliens the size of small frigates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Man%27s_War
The best marine is still doomguy.
Asherian Command wrote: I disagree. Considering a marine can kill a termgaunt pretty easily. Zergling is a much smaller termagaunt.
One zergling could kill a hundred termagants by herself. A thousand maybe.
TheCustomLime wrote: Space Marines have a similar enhancement called the Ossmodula which actually makes their chest bullet proof.
I think you missed the part where I specifically mentioned the words "bullet" and "head". Who cares if your space marines can spit acid and have fused ribcages that constricts their breathing? Terran marines are more numerous, easier and quicker to produce/train, plus they have a more streamlined battle functionality.
Being good at punching things really hard won’t help a space marine the slightest when it starts to rain with bullets.
Sensible quantity is superior to dysfunctional quality, yo.
I'm not familiar with the Starcraft universe so I'll have to take your word for it. But I'm inclined to believe that 1v1 Terran marines would get their butts kicked versus a Space Marine.
I am familiar with both settings, and 40K Marines seem to play on a whole different level to the other Marines.
I mean, Jim Raynor smacks around Tychus Findlay while the latter is wearing Terran Marine armour. I'd love to see a human who could beat up an armoured Space Marine with his fists. Protip: Such a thing doesn't exist.
Terran Marines, in their lore, are displayed the same way as Marines are shown on the tabletop; they are oneshotted by almost everything.
TheCustomLime wrote: I'm not familiar with the Starcraft universe so I'll have to take your word for it. But I'm inclined to believe that 1v1 Terran marines would get their butts kicked versus a Space Marine.
I think it could go both ways. It ultimately depends upon who got the better cover and who gets to fire first. Though, admittedly, such a scenario would slightly favor space marines due to their heightened reflexes.
TheCustomLime wrote: I'm not familiar with the Starcraft universe so I'll have to take your word for it. But I'm inclined to believe that 1v1 Terran marines would get their butts kicked versus a Space Marine.
The starcraft universes marines are actually no different than an ordinary human they basically have armor and a big gun and thats about it.
Starcraft marines are basically cannon fodder, not elite at all.
Terran Marines have no additional biological enhancements.
Their reflexes are worthless in this case: terran marines don't miss.
ummm. Yes they do. Look at the cinematics. Remember they do miss they are humans. Stop bieng completely unreasonable shesh.
This should be emphasised. The human faction in Starcraft is certainly not able to be generous with their resources, but their Marines are still criminals and similar who are sent as cannon fodder and consistently suffer catastrophic casualties.
This should be emphasised. The human faction in Starcraft is certainly not able to be generous with their resources, but their Marines are still criminals and similar who are sent as cannon fodder and consistently suffer catastrophic casualties.
I mean I am more of a blizzard fan than I am a GW fan XD
But their lore is extremely well thought out. I love their tanks, I love everything about starcraft but. You have to admit that their marines are so untrained its hilarious. Remember how many casualities the Terran suffered during their civil war? Billions. BILLIONS in a war that lasted a few months.
That is their military getting slaughtered quite quickly.
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, Jim Raynor smacks around Tychus Findlay while the latter is wearing Terran Marine armour.
A very drunk Tychos, to be exact. Context man, it does wonders for discussions.
Ashiraya wrote: I'd love to see a human who could beat up an armoured Space Marine with his fists. Protip: Such a thing doesn't exist.
Cavemen stabbing chaplains in the throat with wooden spears does exist tho.
Ashiraya wrote: Terran Marines, in their lore, are displayed the same way as Marines are shown on the tabletop; they are oneshotted by almost everything.
Ashiraya wrote: ... and consistently suffer catastrophic casualties.
Just like certain chapters of 40K marines, then
Umm are you talking about the imperial fists here?
Because many chapters are destroyed but that takes a long time and only after a lot of pressure barring in mind that most of the lore is quite unpredictable.
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, Jim Raynor smacks around Tychus Findlay while the latter is wearing Terran Marine armour.
A very drunk Tychos, to be exact. Context man, it does wonders for discussions.
Yeah but then tychos is killed by a single shot from a regular pistol.
Ashiraya wrote: I'd love to see a human who could beat up an armoured Space Marine with his fists. Protip: Such a thing doesn't exist.
Cavemen stabbing chaplains in the throat with wooden spears does exist tho.
So does a bunch of terran marines being killed by molitail cock tails!
Ashiraya wrote: Terran Marines, in their lore, are displayed the same way as Marines are shown on the tabletop; they are oneshotted by almost everything.
Which tells us two things.
1: The universe of StarCraft is a lethal one.
2: Terran marines are line troopers.
1. Terran Marines are extremely expendabale as the lore AcTUALLY SAYS.
2. Terran Marines are actually Militia.
3. Terran Marines are killed quite often even by other marines.
4. Terran Marines are not wearing extremely protective armor.
5. Terran Marines are thoroughly outclassed against Thors.
Asherian Command wrote: But their lore is extremely well thought out. I love their tanks, I love everything about starcraft but. You have to admit that their marines are so untrained its hilarious. Remember how many casualities the Terran suffered during their civil war? Billions. BILLIONS in a war that lasted a few months.
I always enjoy a fellow SC-fan Ash, but your lack of knowledge about the StarCraft universe is astounding.
It’s true that the training of the common Terran marine enlisted in militias is going to vary. However, marines under the CMC, Terran Dominion and the War Pigs are trained much better. In the case of CMC and Terran Dominion, you have former convicts brainwashed into becoming the perfect soldiers, utterly loyal and exceptionally well trained.
Sadly in the case of the Dominion, they often die in droves, mostly due to the Dominion’s insane politics and the fact that loses are not difficult to replace.
Stick to what you know Ash, and let the StarCraft aficionados on Dakka take care of the other end.
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Asherian Command wrote: Yeah but then tychos is killed by a single shot from a regular pistol.
Ash… You see, when a bullet enters the brain, the person in question usually dies. I know this is a scary thought, but it is the truth and I think that, ultimately, you're better off knowing the truth, even if it shocks you a little.
Asherian Command wrote: 1. Terran Marines are extremely expendabale as the lore AcTUALLY SAYS.
Yep, easily produced infantry with high-end protective gear and weaponry? That’s the beauty of the Terran Marine Core boys. Enlist now at your local recruitment center.
I always enjoy a fellow SC-fan Ash, but your lack of knowledge about the StarCraft universe is astounding.
It’s true that the training of the common Terran marine enlisted in militias is going to vary. However, marines under the CMC, Terran Dominion and the War Pigs are trained much better. In the case of CMC and Terran Dominion, you have former convicts brainwashed into becoming the perfect soldiers, utterly loyal and exceptionally well trained.
Sadly in the case of the Dominion, they often die in droves, mostly due to the Dominion’s insane politics and the fact that loses are not difficult to replace.
Stick to what you know Ash, and let the StarCraft aficionados on Dakka take care of the other end.
The brood war significantly depleted the Terran and Protoss forces. They lost Billions in the Brood war. The terran have been caught off by surprise by a bunch small teams of either protoss or zerg.
Keep in mind though, billions is the population of modern day earth, so a single planet. Thats not taking into account things like hive cities where you have billions of people in just one structure.
As far as fighting a war goes, putting mass-produced 'good enough' troops against superior-equipped forces is how america beat germany. And regardless of the wearer, the marines in the starcraft universe are wearing 40k-style power armour. The notable difference being that 40k marines need a backpack to house the powerplant for their suit, while sc marines have it housed in the body itself.
I think the technology level of starcraft is more advanced - no point genetically engineering supersoldiers if they die just as easy as a conscripted grunt. Tychos might have fared a bit better if he'd had his faceplate down when he needed it.
Torga_DW wrote: Keep in mind though, billions is the population of modern day earth, so a single planet. Thats not taking into account things like hive cities where you have billions of people in just one structure.
As far as fighting a war goes, putting mass-produced 'good enough' troops against superior-equipped forces is how america beat germany. And regardless of the wearer, the marines in the starcraft universe are wearing 40k-style power armour. The notable difference being that 40k marines need a backpack to house the powerplant for their suit, while sc marines have it housed in the body itself.
I think the technology level of starcraft is more advanced - no point genetically engineering supersoldiers if they die just as easy as a conscripted grunt. Tychos might have fared a bit better if he'd had his faceplate down when he needed it.
i don't know whos more advanced both have extremely blocky things. And seeing as how the terrans actually lack many of the things that 40k has. IE warp travel. (Being bound to only a few systems.) They do not have the speed of 40k ships and actually lack many of the things 40k marines have.
I know a lot about the starcraft lore. And I know for one fact that their jump infantry. (Reapers) explode usually before they get there. And only carry pistols. Interestingly enough I think that the major thing people keep forgetting is the time differences. Not to mention the large gap between weapon effectiveness.
Gauss Rifles used by the Terran Marines run out pretty quickly and are completely unpredictable . Compared to the bolter which houses 40 bolter shells, and marines carry around 12 clips with them.
Gauss rifles being almost ineffective to roaches and any hard carapace forces with the zerg.
Funnily enough it reminds me of how quickly marines in starcraft are killed. They are as a matter of a fact cannon fodder.
They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.
Torga_DW wrote: They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.
Ummm. Ever read Interex Compliance. It was a massive war between the Imperium of Man and the Interex who had humans donning power armor. needless to say the imperium won by many factors one. Super humans. Due to the fact that super humans were wearing power armor it allowed for the space marines to basically beat the pulp out of the technology similar Interex. Infact the interex was forced to surrender because the Space Marines beat them so badly that the interex didn't even exist after the Luna Wolves were through them.
The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.
The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.
Except when it is being fired by unnamed Chaos Marines against Loyalists with fancy names. The bolter is only as powerful as the insignificance of its target and power armour is only as tough as the plot requires.
There is no consistency in the 40K fluff as to how effective either the Boltgun or Power Armour are.
The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.
Except when it is being fired by unnamed Chaos Marines against Loyalists with fancy names. The bolter is only as powerful as the insignificance of its target and power armour is only as tough as the plot requires.
There is no consistency in the 40K fluff as to how effective either the Boltgun or Power Armour are.
I don't know the horus heresy was quite a determent of that.
Where almost the entire imperium and 75% of the space marine population was dwindled in a few years.
The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.
Except when it is being fired by unnamed Chaos Marines against Loyalists with fancy names. The bolter is only as powerful as the insignificance of its target and power armour is only as tough as the plot requires.
There is no consistency in the 40K fluff as to how effective either the Boltgun or Power Armour are.
I don't know the horus heresy was quite a determent of that.
Where almost the entire imperium and 75% of the space marine population was dwindled in a few years.
Right, but how much of those casualties would have been caused by boltguns over, say, destruction of troop ships in naval battles or orbital bombardments or chemical weapons or whatever.
The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.
Except when it is being fired by unnamed Chaos Marines against Loyalists with fancy names. The bolter is only as powerful as the insignificance of its target and power armour is only as tough as the plot requires.
There is no consistency in the 40K fluff as to how effective either the Boltgun or Power Armour are.
I don't know the horus heresy was quite a determent of that.
Where almost the entire imperium and 75% of the space marine population was dwindled in a few years.
Right, but how much of those casualties would have been caused by boltguns over, say, destruction of troop ships in naval battles or orbital bombardments or chemical weapons or whatever.
I think the biggest blow was during the massacre at Istavvan.
Most troopships were rarely destroyed. Infact the mortaliy rate during the Horus Hersey was probably around 75%.
Torga_DW wrote: They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.
Ummm. Ever read Interex Compliance. It was a massive war between the Imperium of Man and the Interex who had humans donning power armor. needless to say the imperium won by many factors one. Super humans. Due to the fact that super humans were wearing power armor it allowed for the space marines to basically beat the pulp out of the technology similar Interex. Infact the interex was forced to surrender because the Space Marines beat them so badly that the interex didn't even exist after the Luna Wolves were through them.
The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.
The bolter is actually a popgun in practice. S4 AP 5 rapid fire 24" on a 14 pt model stinks.
Torga_DW wrote: They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.
Ummm. Ever read Interex Compliance. It was a massive war between the Imperium of Man and the Interex who had humans donning power armor. needless to say the imperium won by many factors one. Super humans. Due to the fact that super humans were wearing power armor it allowed for the space marines to basically beat the pulp out of the technology similar Interex. Infact the interex was forced to surrender because the Space Marines beat them so badly that the interex didn't even exist after the Luna Wolves were through them.
The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.
The bolter is actually a popgun in practice. S4 AP 5 rapid fire 24" on a 14 pt model stinks.
In the fluff and actually according to readings their weapons are probably very interesting as the bullets are as big as artillery shells fired from these special things
Please refute this statement as you have proved you couldn't do.
As you keep using the tabletop rules and keep ignoring everything that has been stated.
Torga_DW wrote: They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.
Ummm. Ever read Interex Compliance. It was a massive war between the Imperium of Man and the Interex who had humans donning power armor. needless to say the imperium won by many factors one. Super humans. Due to the fact that super humans were wearing power armor it allowed for the space marines to basically beat the pulp out of the technology similar Interex. Infact the interex was forced to surrender because the Space Marines beat them so badly that the interex didn't even exist after the Luna Wolves were through them.
The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.
it was the Auretian Technocracy that had Power Armor and not the Interex. Sorry a bit of a stickler for fluff. But yeah, the Interex was overwhelmed due to an issue of numbers and that they were not a war-centric empire. However their soldiers seemed have been quite capable at taking out Space Marines with their standard issue gun cross bow thingamajig punching holes in power armor with ease.
The Auretian Technocracy was also a fairly peaceful empire no where close to being as warmongering as the Imperium. They were forced to surrender after a 10 month siege on their capital planet by (I think) 3 different legions including the Sons of Horus. Horus was after their STC's to bribe some of the Ad Mech to join his rebellion.
Master Chief would destroy the whole 40k and Starcraft Universe.. The only one who could possibly stop him is Draigo, who unfortunately is stuck in the warp.
Torga_DW wrote: They are cannon fodder, no doubt about it. That doesn't mean they're not equipped with superior arms and armour to other settings. That they're considered cannon fodder speaks a lot to their civilization, such as the tech level needed to mass produce their gear. The bolter could house 120 shells per mag, it has trouble dealing with enemy power armour in its own setting. Whereas redcruisair says, the c-14 gets the job done.
Ummm. Ever read Interex Compliance. It was a massive war between the Imperium of Man and the Interex who had humans donning power armor. needless to say the imperium won by many factors one. Super humans. Due to the fact that super humans were wearing power armor it allowed for the space marines to basically beat the pulp out of the technology similar Interex. Infact the interex was forced to surrender because the Space Marines beat them so badly that the interex didn't even exist after the Luna Wolves were through them.
The Bolter is extremely powerful and no one screws around with an Adeptus Astartes.
it was the Auretian Technocracy that had Power Armor and not the Interex. Sorry a bit of a stickler for fluff. But yeah, the Interex was overwhelmed due to an issue of numbers and that they were not a war-centric empire. However their soldiers seemed have been quite capable at taking out Space Marines with their standard issue gun cross bow thingamajig punching holes in power armor with ease.
The Auretian Technocracy was also a fairly peaceful empire no where close to being as warmongering as the Imperium. They were forced to surrender after a 10 month siege on their capital planet by (I think) 3 different legions including the Sons of Horus. Horus was after their STC's to bribe some of the Ad Mech to join his rebellion.
Yeah Now I remember I confuse the two they all sound quite similar and yeah I remember that bit. It was quite interesting and one of the reasons why I wonder. Could he of bribed the Empire with safety and governorship. I mean through diplomacy he could of easily gotten that empire to join him and become indebted to him.
And possibly would of gotten quite a large empire behind his back to help him in the crusades and possibly also help him during the heresy.
So the discussion is 100 vs 100 vs 100. Not plus all the ships and warp and super weapons, because in that case, Halo uses the Rings and wins. Plus Cortana hacks all of the things and makes friends with the Machine Spirits and/or gets corrupted by all of the crazy gak left over from the war against the Iron Men, or some other technobable cyberwarfare something.
We can't trust 40k fluff as lore, since it's cannon but not accurate. That is, it's as likely to be Imperial propaganda as it is to be useful accurate information about how effective a specific military unit is. The table top is an abstraction and probably makes the Marines weaker than they should be. Finding a happy medium is tricky.
Some people here keep listing off all of the super awesome upgrades that the GW Space Marines get, as though the Spartans aren't also genetically enhanced. Spit out vaugely technical information about the GW armor, as though the other two armors don't also have things that protect their wearer and improve performance.
Spartans can flip tanks. Their armor cannot be worn by non-enhanced humans because the neural interface is such that, upon thinking about moving, the armor will make the movement so fast that it will break bones and rip muscle in a normal human. 40k Power Armor does not have this problem. "Something something black carapace" you say. This is the obvious rebuttal, and while the Black Carapace improves performance compared to normal humans in Power Armor, this is a strength and not a speed increase.
What does this mean? It means that the Spartans are almost certainly a hell of a lot faster than a 40k or Starcraft Marine. Moreover, they are way more willing to sneak around (with some exception depending on which chapter we're dealing with) and even run away to figure out just what the hell they are dealing with. Both Imperial Marines and Spartans beat out the Terran Marines who are less veteran, less bred for war, and less augmented. Their armor is certainly slower than the Spartans at least, given that, unaugmented, they can't move that fast without being pulped. Similarly, in one of the Games, Master Chief fell from Orbit and lived, with armor and systems intact. So including the recharging shields, Spartans have armor that is at least as tough as the Space Marines.
Let's look at scale then. We know that the tabletop scale is disconnected from the model scale. To figure out what the scale of the board is, I looked up that fluff range of a basilisk, which ended up being 'over 15km'. Using 15km as a base to compare to the 20 feet of actual range, I cranked out a 1:2460 scale for the ground. That works out to 62.5 meters (68 yards) per inch. This works out to a Bolter having a 750 - 1500 meter (effective) range, which becomes less moronic as well. From what I can tell, the individuals themselves are about equal, but the weapons of the Imperium are much better. Which means, unless the Spartans can speed and sneak their way to a weapons cache, they'll get killed before they get into range (unless they get their sniper rifles and rockets...).
Paimon wrote: So the discussion is 100 vs 100 vs 100. Not plus all the ships and warp and super weapons, because in that case, Halo uses the Rings and wins. Plus Cortana hacks all of the things and makes friends with the Machine Spirits and/or gets corrupted by all of the crazy gak left over from the war against the Iron Men, or some other technobable cyberwarfare something.
We can't trust 40k fluff as lore, since it's cannon but not accurate. That is, it's as likely to be Imperial propaganda as it is to be useful accurate information about how effective a specific military unit is. The table top is an abstraction and probably makes the Marines weaker than they should be. Finding a happy medium is tricky.
Some people here keep listing off all of the super awesome upgrades that the GW Space Marines get, as though the Spartans aren't also genetically enhanced. Spit out vaugely technical information about the GW armor, as though the other two armors don't also have things that protect their wearer and improve performance.
Spartans can flip tanks. Their armor cannot be worn by non-enhanced humans because the neural interface is such that, upon thinking about moving, the armor will make the movement so fast that it will break bones and rip muscle in a normal human. 40k Power Armor does not have this problem. "Something something black carapace" you say. This is the obvious rebuttal, and while the Black Carapace improves performance compared to normal humans in Power Armor, this is a strength and not a speed increase.
What does this mean? It means that the Spartans are almost certainly a hell of a lot faster than a 40k or Starcraft Marine. Moreover, they are way more willing to sneak around (with some exception depending on which chapter we're dealing with) and even run away to figure out just what the hell they are dealing with. Both Imperial Marines and Spartans beat out the Terran Marines who are less veteran, less bred for war, and less augmented. Their armor is certainly slower than the Spartans at least, given that, unaugmented, they can't move that fast without being pulped. Similarly, in one of the Games, Master Chief fell from Orbit and lived, with armor and systems intact. So including the recharging shields, Spartans have armor that is at least as tough as the Space Marines.
Let's look at scale then. We know that the tabletop scale is disconnected from the model scale. To figure out what the scale of the board is, I looked up that fluff range of a basilisk, which ended up being 'over 15km'. Using 15km as a base to compare to the 20 feet of actual range, I cranked out a 1:2460 scale for the ground. That works out to 62.5 meters (68 yards) per inch. This works out to a Bolter having a 750 - 1500 meter (effective) range, which becomes less moronic as well. From what I can tell, the individuals themselves are about equal, but the weapons of the Imperium are much better. Which means, unless the Spartans can speed and sneak their way to a weapons cache, they'll get killed before they get into range (unless they get their sniper rifles and rockets...).
True. But you have their armor being damaged heavily by small gunfire. Where it has been shown that starcraft marine dies from a couple shots as well.
The Starcraft marine is the slowest of all the three presented.
I think marines are not only augmented further than Spartans but are vastly more improved as they have centuries or decades of more experience than any spartan. It would be similar to fighting Eldar for the Space Marines, just with less effective weaponry and not being able to detect movement like a Space Marine can.
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primalexile wrote: Master Chief would destroy the whole 40k and Starcraft Universe.. The only one who could possibly stop him is Draigo, who unfortunately is stuck in the warp.
Your head is in the clouds.
Master Chief would be crushed into paste by a company of marines and bolter fire.
Asherian Command wrote: True. But you have their armor being damaged heavily by small gunfire. Where it has been shown that starcraft marine dies from a couple shots as well.
So? Being killed in a couple shots from a weapon in the same universe doesn't mean that a weapon in a second universe can do the same. For example, a Culture combat drone could kill another Culture combat drone in a couple of shots, but that doesn't mean that a 40k space marine's bolter is going to do more than annoy the drone into vaporizing the marine.
I think marines are not only augmented further than Spartans but are vastly more improved as they have centuries or decades of more experience than any spartan.
This depends greatly on the marine. Some marines have hundreds of years of experience, some have barely made it out of training.
A marine will have served a minimum of 5 years in the Scout squads before he's a full battle brother. Pretty sure the only chapter which makes full marines out of green recruits are the Space Wolves, and even then they will have likely seen combat as a tribesmen on Fenris.
Paimon wrote: Let's look at scale then. We know that the tabletop scale is disconnected from the model scale. To figure out what the scale of the board is, I looked up that fluff range of a basilisk, which ended up being 'over 15km'. Using 15km as a base to compare to the 20 feet of actual range, I cranked out a 1:2460 scale for the ground. That works out to 62.5 meters (68 yards) per inch. This works out to a Bolter having a 750 - 1500 meter (effective) range, which becomes less moronic as well. From what I can tell, the individuals themselves are about equal, but the weapons of the Imperium are much better. Which means, unless the Spartans can speed and sneak their way to a weapons cache, they'll get killed before they get into range (unless they get their sniper rifles and rockets...).
The problem with this approach to scaling is that it only considers distance scaling and ignores time scaling. If an inch on the tabletop represents ~70 yards in "reality" then none of the time scaling makes any sense. An average infantry unit can move 6" per turn followed by a 2D6" charge, so at 1:2460 scale that unit could move over half a mile across open ground and charge an enemy unit while the target barely has time to throw a few inaccurate shots in their general direction. This is obviously absurd, and the situation only makes sense if you assume that the movement distance for the charging unit is scaled roughly the same as the 28mm model (which makes the distance ~10-15 yards).
With that in mind the best way to handle things like the maximum range of tank guns on the tabletop is to accept that the range number in the rules is purely a game mechanic and has nothing to do with the actual range of the weapon. The most we can conclude from the Basilisk having a 240" maximum range is that a Basilisk has a really huge maximum range relative to the average 40k battle.
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Grey Templar wrote: A marine will have served a minimum of 5 years in the Scout squads before he's a full battle brother. Pretty sure the only chapter which makes full marines out of green recruits are the Space Wolves, and even then they will have likely seen combat as a tribesmen on Fenris.
Sure, but that's 5 years as a scout, not as a full marine. And it's 5 years that is intended to be a training period. So that's well short of the assumption that an average marine has decades or centuries of experience.
Paimon wrote: Let's look at scale then. We know that the tabletop scale is disconnected from the model scale. To figure out what the scale of the board is, I looked up that fluff range of a basilisk, which ended up being 'over 15km'. Using 15km as a base to compare to the 20 feet of actual range, I cranked out a 1:2460 scale for the ground. That works out to 62.5 meters (68 yards) per inch. This works out to a Bolter having a 750 - 1500 meter (effective) range, which becomes less moronic as well. From what I can tell, the individuals themselves are about equal, but the weapons of the Imperium are much better. Which means, unless the Spartans can speed and sneak their way to a weapons cache, they'll get killed before they get into range (unless they get their sniper rifles and rockets...).
The problem with this approach to scaling is that it only considers distance scaling and ignores time scaling. If an inch on the tabletop represents ~70 yards in "reality" then none of the time scaling makes any sense. An average infantry unit can move 6" per turn followed by a 2D6" charge, so at 1:2460 scale that unit could move over half a mile across open ground and charge an enemy unit while the target barely has time to throw a few inaccurate shots in their general direction. This is obviously absurd, and the situation only makes sense if you assume that the movement distance for the charging unit is scaled roughly the same as the 28mm model (which makes the distance ~10-15 yards).
With that in mind the best way to handle things like the maximum range of tank guns on the tabletop is to accept that the range number in the rules is purely a game mechanic and has nothing to do with the actual range of the weapon. The most we can conclude from the Basilisk having a 240" maximum range is that a Basilisk has a really huge maximum range relative to the average 40k battle.
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Grey Templar wrote: A marine will have served a minimum of 5 years in the Scout squads before he's a full battle brother. Pretty sure the only chapter which makes full marines out of green recruits are the Space Wolves, and even then they will have likely seen combat as a tribesmen on Fenris.
Sure, but that's 5 years as a scout, not as a full marine. And it's 5 years that is intended to be a training period. So that's well short of the assumption that an average marine has decades or centuries of experience.
According to the fluff a Tactical marine is taken from the devastator and assualt squads having served many years already. Not to mention the years of service before being fit to be a neophyte after the implementation process.
Very few marines if ever are actual green horns. They are still well trained by that stage of development.
Peregrine wrote: The problem with this approach to scaling is that it only considers distance scaling and ignores time scaling. If an inch on the tabletop represents ~70 yards in "reality" then none of the time scaling makes any sense. An average infantry unit can move 6" per turn followed by a 2D6" charge, so at 1:2460 scale that unit could move over half a mile across open ground and charge an enemy unit while the target barely has time to throw a few inaccurate shots in their general direction. This is obviously absurd, and the situation only makes sense if you assume that the movement distance for the charging unit is scaled roughly the same as the 28mm model (which makes the distance ~10-15 yards).
I think you're looking at this the wrong way, time scaling is a thing that we can also calculate from distance scaling. When I first did the math almost 2 years ago now, I started a thread in the IGMB, and while giving up and just saying 'game mechanic' and leaving it at that is the rational thing to do, we can figure things out with more detail if we're willing to do the work. Sgt. Rock already did the work for us though, so I'm going to quote him:
Well, with regards to your question about running and assaulting, an infantry model may run an additional D6" in the shooting phase (Move! Move! Move! just allows them to reroll that distance, I believe.) So that's between 62.5 and 375 meters. Assaulting is now done on 2D6, so that is another 123-750 meters. So potentially, a Guardsman in peak, unaugmented human condition is capable, in game terms, of running 1,475 meters in a turn.
Now, being able to move almost a kilometer and a half at any sort of pace that a human could reliably keep would take at least 5-8 minutes (any military folks who actually can run a 1.5k with full kit, feel free to confirm/correct me; I'm an overweight and out of shape slob who can't run more than 50 feet without getting winded.) If they're attempting to move at all cautiously (and who wouldn't, under frontline combat circumstances?) we can assume it would probably take 15-30 minutes to complete a turn. Based on the concept that Night Fighting rules can take effect both for the first and last turn of the game, it's assumed that the battle takes at least 6-8 hours to fight, if not a bit longer. Again, not unreasonable.
Considering weapon ranges and rate of fire: the weapon ranges are, to my eyes, an average of *effective* range, based on the capabilities of the weapon and the firer. Any trained rifleman can hit a man-sized target with your average battle rifle at 500 meters, but you'd have to be an absolute wizard to push it too much farther than that, particularly in the heat of combat. So we figure that the 12"-24" range on a lasgun is the Guardsman moving at a steady but careful pace and taking deliberate (or as best he/she can) aim at a target that is in the average effective range of the weapon. Inside 12", we're looking at the same careful, by-the-numbers movement, but with much less deliberate - and thus, less accurate - fire. Now, we can safely assume, I think, that a weapon that is, for example, Assault 2 (a Guard shotgun or something) does not represent a soldier moving at that kind of pace over a turn that realistically should take about half an hour only firing two shots in that period. Rather, it is intended to represent a certain volume of fire directed downrange during that time. A Heavy Bolter, for example, is roughly equivalent (I would think) to a .50 caliber machine gun. Now, the M2 they put on top of Humvees has a cyclic rate of about 700 rounds per minute. Therefore, we could assume that a Heavy Bolter has a similar cyclic rate. Thus, the three shots per turn that it fires could safely be assumed, on a spur of the moment SWAG, to equate to probably 75-100 rounds per turn, assuming controlled bursts and time spent reloading. In terms of a lasgun, you could figure maybe 30 or 40 shots at double tap range, or 10-15 at longer range. The First Rank, Second Rank order represents the 40k equivalent of the "Mad Minute" that British soldiers used to strive for in WWII. For artillery like a Basilisk, I suspect that the shells the weapon fires do not actually have the blast radius or lethality that their base statistics would represent, but a sustained barrage at one target, firing a certain number of shells in a given period, would cause the casualties.
For vehicles, a 6" combat speed movement is not unreasonable. If you consider that with the exception of main battle tanks engaging each other in open terrain (The Eastern Front in WWII or the American invasion of Kuwait in 1991, for example), most AFVs and APCs will travel at the same speed as the infantry around them, particularly in dense terrain like cities or forests. Theirs is a symbiotic relationship; the infantry benefit from the firepower and cover from small arms fire that a tank or APC can provide, and in turn, they provide greater visibility and protection from infantry-based AT weaponry. So a 6" combat speed for vehicles is not unreasonable, either. Moving twice that for cruising speed is, again, a reasonable approximation for most vehicles, representing a rapid redeployment regardless of infantry support. Flat out is hammer down, pedal to the metal speed, and realistically, is not something most vehicles could sustain for long.
So at this point, setting aside the fact that our Imperial Guardsmen must be sheer giants to be taking 15-20 meters per stride, I think we can figure that an average game term would take roughly 30-45 minutes, allowing for relatively cautious movement, measured firepower, and the swirling chaos of melee combat. Shooting values represent approximations of ranges and rates of fire, factoring in movement speed, average marksmanship, and reload time of the weapon. We can pretty safely assume that the number of attacks a model makes in melee equate to roughly the same scale. All told, aside from the sizes of the miniatures (which we know are screwy anyway, because there's no way you could squeeze 10 marines, a driver and co-driver/gunner/commander/whatever AND an engine into a vehicle the size of a Rhino) the ranges, weapon fire rates and lethality, and game time isn't at all unreasonable for a massed land battle.
Spartans have also been trained since childhood. The deciding factor for combat experience is the fact that Space Marines are effectively immortal, which means that they'll have much more experience on average.
Paimon wrote: I think you're looking at this the wrong way, time scaling is a thing that we can also calculate from distance scaling. When I first did the math almost 2 years ago now, I started a thread in the IGMB, and while giving up and just saying 'game mechanic' and leaving it at that is the rational thing to do, we can figure things out with more detail if we're willing to do the work. Sgt. Rock already did the work for us though, so I'm going to quote him:
Yes, you've found some numbers, but those numbers don't make any sense in an IGOUGO game. The whole "my troops stand there doing nothing while yours move into range and slaughter them" approximation only makes sense if you assume that a turn takes a few seconds and IGOUGO represents catching an enemy unprepared with an attack. If your scaling requires each turn to be several minutes long then you're arguing that it's reasonable for a squad to stand there watching for several minutes while an enemy closes in on their position and kills them (and they don't even get overwatch fire if the attacking unit shoots them to death). This is obvious nonsense, so the "long" turn scaling has to be rejected.
Ashiraya wrote: I mean, Jim Raynor smacks around Tychus Findlay while the latter is wearing Terran Marine armour. I'd love to see a human who could beat up an armoured Space Marine with his fists. Protip: Such a thing doesn't exist.
Actually, Jim Raynor only avoids Tychus blows, and then use some electric cable to disable Tychus armor. Also, let me introduce you to Sly Marbo. He can beat an armored space marine unconscious with only his teeth. He does that as a workout every morning, actually.
Redcruisair wrote: Though, admittedly, such a scenario would slightly favor space marines due to their heightened reflexes.
Well, stimpacks are basically like Dark Eldars combat drugs, but better, so thanks to them Starcraft marines get better reflexes.
They are elite. It is just that everything else in the game is even more elite (except zergling, arguably reapers, …).
Asherian Command wrote: But their lore is extremely well thought out. I love their tanks, I love everything about starcraft but. You have to admit that their marines are so untrained its hilarious. Remember how many casualities the Terran suffered during their civil war? Billions. BILLIONS in a war that lasted a few months.
That is their military getting slaughtered quite quickly.
Fact: Blood Angels lost 90% of the whole chapter when trying to attack on a Space Hulk infested by genestealers. Just genestealers. Imagine a whole hive fleet? The overmind is the big daddy of hive fleets.
primalexile wrote: Master Chief would destroy the whole 40k and Starcraft Universe.. The only one who could possibly stop him is Draigo, who unfortunately is stuck in the warp.
The amount of ignorance of these games is astounding on the first few pages. I feel like you would have to play all three and be a fluff nerd to make the comparisions. Some of the wiser people in this thread have it seems though.
IMO, it is:
Space Marine,
Spartan,
Starcraft Marine.
A Spartan and Starcraft Marine would be a tough tango due to the weapon calibers, a Space Marine would wipe the floor with both. Unless...
You go by tabletop standards... yeah, then the Space Marines would lose. Or if you happened to paint them yellow. However, this thread is about fluff, not TT like so many people have commented. It is not a Space Marine's weapons, armor, or anything along those lines that matters. It is the genetic modifications. It is the same implants that make a Spartan strong, turned up to 11. If a Spartan had the same extensive amount of implants as a Space Marine, they would be awesome. (I use that in the real meaning of the word.) I am also unsure how they would far against a Space Marine due to the weaponry, though people are correct in saying they wouldn't hesitate to pick up alien weaponry.
IMO, it is the genetic modifications that make a Spartan and a Space Marine so powerful. Starcraft Marines have an extensive arsenal of weapons that make them formidable however.
Grey Templar wrote: MJOLNIR armor is actually surprisingly weak in terms of protection.
The shield is the only substantial protection it offers, and it gets overloaded with even a couple weak hits from a covenant plasma pistol. Legendary difficulty is the "canon" difficulty setting if you want to do comparisons. And once the shield is down, the Spartan goes down quickly.
Also, legendary is the "canon," difficulty for Halo? Yeah right... I normally agree with you too Grey. It is worth noting that the shield scales with the difficulty, and this...
It states that in every game, at least since Halo 2. Heroic is a cakewalk on a sunday compared to Legendary for a Spartan. (INB4 someone rips this post apart to pieces without context or just to do it for the hell of it, and/or states this is a straw man because I am a filthy console peasant and deserve this fate .)
Anyways, why do I keep using IMO in this post? 40k was made to be OTT and crazy, the size of the ships alone dwarf almost ever other fictional fantasy/space universe. It is a hyperviolent galaxy. I use IMO as there are no numbers to be crunched for all of these, so the only thing we can do in this thread is guest-i-mate. I feel like I should scan all my Starcraft, Halo, and Space Marine fluff books resources (collector editions that I got from friends etc,) like implants, armor, and upload them here to add to the conversion but, I doubt it would be appreciated.
Also, please ignore my typos, the computer is still trying to autocorrect this to Swedish because I use Chrome.
Edit: And please forgive the salt all over this post. I hadn't had morning coffee yet and now I feel like I came across as rude.
Stormwall wrote: The amount of ignorance of these games is astounding on the first few pages. I feel like you would have to play all three and be a fluff nerd to make the comparisions. Some of the wiser people in this thread have it seems though.
IMO, it is:
Space Marine,
Spartan,
Starcraft Marine.
A Spartan and Starcraft Marine would be a tough tango due to the weapon calibers, a Space Marine would wipe the floor with both. Unless...
You go by tabletop standards... yeah, then the Space Marines would lose. Or if you happened to paint them yellow. However, this thread is about fluff, not TT like so many people have commented. It is not a Space Marine's weapons, armor, or anything along those lines that matters. It is the genetic modifications. It is the same implants that make a Spartan strong, turned up to 11. If a Spartan had the same extensive amount of implants as a Space Marine, they would be awesome. (I use that in the real meaning of the word.) I am also unsure how they would far against a Space Marine due to the weaponry, though people are correct in saying they wouldn't hesitate to pick up alien weaponry.
IMO, it is the genetic modifications that make a Spartan and a Space Marine so powerful. Starcraft Marines have an extensive arsenal of weapons that make them formidable however.
Grey Templar wrote: MJOLNIR armor is actually surprisingly weak in terms of protection.
The shield is the only substantial protection it offers, and it gets overloaded with even a couple weak hits from a covenant plasma pistol. Legendary difficulty is the "canon" difficulty setting if you want to do comparisons. And once the shield is down, the Spartan goes down quickly.
Also, legendary is the "canon," difficulty for Halo? Yeah right... I normally agree with you too Grey. It is worth noting that the shield scales with the difficulty, and this...
It states that in every game, at least since Halo 2. Heroic is a cakewalk on a sunday compared to Legendary for a Spartan. (INB4 someone rips this post apart to pieces without context or just to do it for the hell of it, and/or states this is a straw man because I am a filthy console peasant and deserve this fate .)
Anyways, why do I keep using IMO in this post? 40k was made to be OTT and crazy, the size of the ships alone dwarf almost ever other fictional fantasy/space universe. It is a hyperviolent galaxy. I use IMO as there are no numbers to be crunched for all of these, so the only thing we can do in this thread is guest-i-mate. I feel like I should scan all my Starcraft, Halo, and Space Marine fluff books resources (collector editions that I got from friends etc,) like implants, armor, and upload them here to add to the conversion but, I doubt it would be appreciated.
Also, please ignore my typos, the computer is still trying to autocorrect this to Swedish because I use Chrome.
Edit: And please forgive the salt all over this post. I hadn't had morning coffee yet and now I feel like I came across as rude.
I am also of this same opinion.
On a 100 v 100 v 100 with "close to standard" loadouts, IMO we have Space Marine > Spartan > Starcraft Marine.
If you start adding Tanks, things get blurred.
Add Space Warships, and 40k wipes the floor again.
Then you add "The Array" Rings, and that's just a reset button for the whole argument....
Also, as a side note, it came up in another post: There is NO cannon for 40k, just peoples' views. So we're back to all using IMO
There is NO cannon for 40k, just peoples' views. So we're back to all using IMO
Every time someone says that. They are mostly saying that to get out of an argument or discussion or trying to make every point sound stupid and nebilious. We call this straw manning and distracting from main points. Instead of taking the words of actual lore and agreeing with it, you just basically shut down everyones argument because of some idiot literally said that once.
No. Learn what this expression means.
Beside, the fluff is pretty clear that Starcraft marines are better than 40k marines .
What a logical fallacy where they literally misinterperted the authors original meaning and taking his words and misrepresenting it for what they are. Yeah I know what it means.
Don't act all high and mighty when you have added little to the conversation at hand and has only become a nuisance and a troll in this thread.
Stormwall wrote: The amount of ignorance of these games is astounding on the first few pages. I feel like you would have to play all three and be a fluff nerd to make the comparisions. Some of the wiser people in this thread have it seems though.
IMO, it is:
Space Marine,
Spartan,
Starcraft Marine.
A Spartan and Starcraft Marine would be a tough tango due to the weapon calibers, a Space Marine would wipe the floor with both. Unless...
You go by tabletop standards... yeah, then the Space Marines would lose. Or if you happened to paint them yellow. However, this thread is about fluff, not TT like so many people have commented. It is not a Space Marine's weapons, armor, or anything along those lines that matters. It is the genetic modifications. It is the same implants that make a Spartan strong, turned up to 11. If a Spartan had the same extensive amount of implants as a Space Marine, they would be awesome. (I use that in the real meaning of the word.) I am also unsure how they would far against a Space Marine due to the weaponry, though people are correct in saying they wouldn't hesitate to pick up alien weaponry.
IMO, it is the genetic modifications that make a Spartan and a Space Marine so powerful. Starcraft Marines have an extensive arsenal of weapons that make them formidable however.
Grey Templar wrote: MJOLNIR armor is actually surprisingly weak in terms of protection.
The shield is the only substantial protection it offers, and it gets overloaded with even a couple weak hits from a covenant plasma pistol. Legendary difficulty is the "canon" difficulty setting if you want to do comparisons. And once the shield is down, the Spartan goes down quickly.
Also, legendary is the "canon," difficulty for Halo? Yeah right... I normally agree with you too Grey. It is worth noting that the shield scales with the difficulty, and this...
It states that in every game, at least since Halo 2. Heroic is a cakewalk on a sunday compared to Legendary for a Spartan. (INB4 someone rips this post apart to pieces without context or just to do it for the hell of it, and/or states this is a straw man because I am a filthy console peasant and deserve this fate .)
Anyways, why do I keep using IMO in this post? 40k was made to be OTT and crazy, the size of the ships alone dwarf almost ever other fictional fantasy/space universe. It is a hyperviolent galaxy. I use IMO as there are no numbers to be crunched for all of these, so the only thing we can do in this thread is guest-i-mate. I feel like I should scan all my Starcraft, Halo, and Space Marine fluff books resources (collector editions that I got from friends etc,) like implants, armor, and upload them here to add to the conversion but, I doubt it would be appreciated.
Also, please ignore my typos, the computer is still trying to autocorrect this to Swedish because I use Chrome.
Edit: And please forgive the salt all over this post. I hadn't had morning coffee yet and now I feel like I came across as rude.
I am also of this same opinion.
On a 100 v 100 v 100 with "close to standard" loadouts, IMO we have Space Marine > Spartan > Starcraft Marine.
If you start adding Tanks, things get blurred.
Add Space Warships, and 40k wipes the floor again.
Then you add "The Array" Rings, and that's just a reset button for the whole argument....
Also, as a side note, it came up in another post: There is NO cannon for 40k, just peoples' views. So we're back to all using IMO
UNSC tanks are kind of pants. Actually, the Scorpion is such a crappy vehicle that the only reason it does well is because the Covenant vehicle pool manages to be even worse somehow. It has armor that's vulnerable to .50 cal and Anti-material fire, slower than any modern MBT and has an inferior gun. It also has a stupid as hell machine gun set up that only makes sense if you remember that it was designed for a video game. A Predator would mop the floor with a Scorpion. An M1 Abrams would wreck a scorpion. A Tiger tank has a decent chance against a scorpion if it gets the drop on it.
It would be cool to just see a warhammer 40k day where a bunch of animators animated a bunch 40k space marines just fighting against famous super heroes.
Also who said Starcraft marines? Those guys would get their butts kicked.
I guess the Marvel world is getting nuked then. Mutants everywhere.
Then the only survivor would be the hulk. XD
The Hulk is the exact type of creature Mass Reactive Bolter shells were designed to take out.
As a bit of a comic book nerd this made me shiver to the core. You all honestly think Astartes would do anything but be slaughtered like small children against Superman and Hulk?
Please read at least their most basic feats before proclaiming a Bolter will bring them down... The Marvel, DCU and for what it's worth Dragon Ball universes are on a whole other level to 40k and other Sci-fi settings.
The hulk gets at least superficial wounds from .50 cal rounds.
Bolter rounds are .75 cal and explode once they penetrate. Once the Hulk has a few open wounds the bolt rounds will begin blasting larger and larger chunks out of his body.
Its certainly going to take a lot of shots, but the Hulk isn't invincible like Super Man. he's just really really tough.
It would be cool to just see a warhammer 40k day where a bunch of animators animated a bunch 40k space marines just fighting against famous super heroes.
Also who said Starcraft marines? Those guys would get their butts kicked.
I guess the Marvel world is getting nuked then. Mutants everywhere.
Then the only survivor would be the hulk. XD
The Hulk is the exact type of creature Mass Reactive Bolter shells were designed to take out.
As a bit of a comic book nerd this made me shiver to the core. You all honestly think Astartes would do anything but be slaughtered like small children against Superman and Hulk?
Please read at least their most basic feats before proclaiming a Bolter will bring them down... The Marvel, DCU and for what it's worth Dragon Ball universes are on a whole other level to 40k and other Sci-fi settings.
Agreed. I know that super heroes would win no matter what. They are on a whole other level.
The hulk gets at least superficial wounds from .50 cal rounds.
Bolter rounds are .75 cal and explode once they penetrate. Once the Hulk has a few open wounds the bolt rounds will begin blasting larger and larger chunks out of his body.
Its certainly going to take a lot of shots, but the Hulk isn't invincible like Super Man. he's just really really tough.
It would be cool to just see a warhammer 40k day where a bunch of animators animated a bunch 40k space marines just fighting against famous super heroes.
Also who said Starcraft marines? Those guys would get their butts kicked.
I guess the Marvel world is getting nuked then. Mutants everywhere.
Then the only survivor would be the hulk. XD
The Hulk is the exact type of creature Mass Reactive Bolter shells were designed to take out.
As a bit of a comic book nerd this made me shiver to the core. You all honestly think Astartes would do anything but be slaughtered like small children against Superman and Hulk?
Please read at least their most basic feats before proclaiming a Bolter will bring them down... The Marvel, DCU and for what it's worth Dragon Ball universes are on a whole other level to 40k and other Sci-fi settings.
Agreed. I know that super heroes would win no matter what. They are on a whole other level.
The hulk gets at least superficial wounds from .50 cal rounds.
Bolter rounds are .75 cal and explode once they penetrate. Once the Hulk has a few open wounds the bolt rounds will begin blasting larger and larger chunks out of his body.
Its certainly going to take a lot of shots, but the Hulk isn't invincible like Super Man. he's just really really tough.
i have yet to see the hulk die.
Marvel Zombies. Pretty sure Hulk dies there.
Also, Deadpool kills the marvel universe.
Asherian Command wrote: What a logical fallacy where they literally misinterperted the authors original meaning and taking his words and misrepresenting it for what they are.
No. It is not just misrepresenting what someone says. It is misrepresenting something that someone says so that you can pretend it to be stupid. Which was not the case here. They were not misrepresenting what GW said to pretend that what GW said was stupid, but that what you said was stupid.
(And actually, they were not even misrepresenting anything, but hey, am I ever going to convince you of that?)
Let me give you an example of what a real strawman is. Suppose for instance that I said many time that female gaze exists, but that it is not catered too in most video game. Now suppose that you pretend I said that female gaze does not exist, and point links to tv-trope to prove it exists. Then you are doing a strawman because you are misrepresenting what I say to prove me wrong. This is not what BlackTalos did.
Asherian Command wrote: Don't act all high and mighty when you have added little to the conversation at hand and has only become a nuisance and a troll in this thread.
Oh my. You did not like what I said because I did not agree with you. Sorry about that.
Redcruisair wrote: Though, admittedly, such a scenario would slightly favor space marines due to their heightened reflexes.
Well, stimpacks are basically like Dark Eldars combat drugs, but better, so thanks to them Starcraft marines get better reflexes.
Oh gawd Stimpacks… They are like the sci-fi version of the POWERTHIRST drink, with the added side effects of LSD…
not to mention it is extremely posionious to the blood streams and is dangeorus in general for the Marines to use. Hence why their health takes a dump on them. It only increases reflexes not strength or overall coordination or precision.
Marvel Zombies. Pretty sure Hulk dies there.
Also, Deadpool kills the marvel universe.
Oh yeah I forgot about those two events.
I just looked it up apparently the hulk has died on many occasions.
Heres a list of people who have killed the hulk.
The Abomination
Rulk
Cable and Storm
Galactus
Shadow Cat
Blink
Night Crawler
Galactus
Franklin Richards
The Celestials
Namor
Thor
Odin
Zeus
Skaar
Phoenix Five
Thanos
Anyone with the Infinity Gauntlet
Adam Warlock
Beyonder
Molecule Man
Sentry/Void
Beta Ray Bill
Abraxas
In Earth-616 (the main Marvel Universe) Hulk has only "died" at the hands of Void although he has had his ass handed to him by the Beyonder and Eternity. There was someone who was able to vaporize most of his flesh but Hulk regenerated within seconds and commenced an ass whooping we all know and love Hulk for.
In alternate universes hulk's equivalents have died on many occasions but in Earth-616, Hulk is one of the few characters not to have experienced a cartoon death (unlike Captain America, Spiderman, Punisher, Human Torch...) Back in the horror that was Marvel in the 90's, Hulk pretty much killed the Marvel Universe before Punisher and Deadpool made it cool (I am glad though that it was retconned and that the wiping out of the Marvel Universes occur in silly alternate universes... Not so happy about the retconning of hulk rage lifting Mjolnir though...).
Asherian Command wrote: not to mention it is extremely posionious to the blood streams and is dangeorus in general for the Marines to use.
Take a chance! Take a chance! Take a chance!
Asherian Command wrote: Hence why their health takes a dump on them. It only increases reflexes not strength.
Stimpacks allow marines and maradurs to outrun zerg, while shooting them at the same time. So something must happen to their bodies since they can sprint like mad cheetahs.
Wrong. Heightened reflexes also increase coordination and precision. You are less likely fire wildly since everything happens in slow motion and your body moves at a heightened speed, allowing for a quick and precise aim.
Asherian Command wrote: not to mention it is extremely posionious to the blood streams and is dangeorus in general for the Marines to use.
Are we talking about a “who lives longer” contest, or about a “who would kill the other” contest? 40k marines sure live way longer than Starcraft marine if they do not meet a bloody end in battle, but yet Starcraft marines would kill 40k marines way faster than 40k marines would kill Starcraft marines.
Asherian Command wrote: It only increases reflexes not strength or overall coordination or precision.
Asherian Command wrote: not to mention it is extremely posionious to the blood streams and is dangeorus in general for the Marines to use.
Are we talking about a “who lives longer” contest, or about a “who would kill the other” contest? 40k marines sure live way longer than Starcraft marine if they do not meet a bloody end in battle, but yet Starcraft marines would kill 40k marines way faster than 40k marines would kill Starcraft marines.
Asherian Command wrote: It only increases reflexes not strength or overall coordination or precision.
Starcraft marines never miss. Ever.
Yeah, about that...
They weren't even dodging... Also, that missile guy should have been in the game. I was really sad there wasn't a missile unit in BW :(
Asherian Command wrote: It only increases reflexes not strength or overall coordination or precision.
Starcraft marines never miss. Ever.
They also shoot faster after taking Stimpacks. For some reason the guns gain a significant increase in their rate of fire when the wielder is tripping on stimpacks… Weird.
Asherian Command wrote: It only increases reflexes not strength or overall coordination or precision.
Starcraft marines never miss. Ever.
They also shoot faster after taking Stimpacks. For some reason the guns gain a significant increase in their rate of fire when the wielder is tripping on stimpacks… Weird.
I always thought it had something to do with recoil.
Before they couldn't handle the recoil, so they fired slowly.
Now that they are tripping balls, they don't care about recoil, so they just hold down the trigger.
Asherian Command wrote: not to mention it is extremely posionious to the blood streams and is dangeorus in general for the Marines to use.
Take a chance! Take a chance! Take a chance!
Asherian Command wrote: Hence why their health takes a dump on them. It only increases reflexes not strength.
Stimpacks allow marines and maradurs to outrun zerg, while shooting them at the same time. So something must happen to their bodies since they can sprint like mad cheetahs.
Wrong. Heightened reflexes also increase coordination and precision. You are less likely fire wildly since everything happens in slow motion and your body moves at a heightened speed, allowing for a quick and precise aim.
That still comes at an extreme cost. It all decreases many of the strength over all of the subject. Stims have a lot of down sides.
Its funny you say that considering in every cinematic and book marines are killed rather quickly.
See Starcraft Ghosts: cinematic trailer where they are missing every shot.
Face it your grasping at straws. Once that trip ends they are back to being. If you use it too much you die quicker.
Space Marines have no drawbacks in that regard.
Starcraft Marines have to use stims to get a fraction of their speed or power out, while a marine can do it much better with less reliance on drugs. Not to mention Space Marines fight from a long distance not up close and personal like some people think they do. Starcraft Marines have to be up closer. Look at the cinematics and starcraft they have to literally be infront of them and 30 yards away for them to even hit it.
Space Marines have the benefits of being super human to the levels that make starcraft marines all but a nuisance to a space marine.
So 40k marines win any comparison arguments because plot convenience?
I still don't understand why you're so focused on their biological enhancements - thats what armour is for. It just speaks to the shoddiness of 40k armour that they need to invest such considerable resources into the wearers to make up for the armour. Armour which doesn't noticably augment the strength and abilities of the wearer (no statline changes to marines or sisters for wearing it), while the sc marine starts throwing punches like a tank. They usually don't, however, because C-14.
So the sc marines have taken stimms and died after mopping the floor with the 40k marines..... okay, call the jail and get me 100 more prisoners, plenty where they came from. Churn out a few more hundred suits of armour as well, just to be sure. The 40k marines are lurking at the edges of the battlefield trying to recover their precious wargear & geneseed? Have fun with wave 2.
Give me 100 starcraft marines, or failing that give me 1000 other spartans.
Nah. The 100 Marines would turn the 1000 Spartans into bits of flesh and charred armor with their bolters and lose maybe 10 guys in return if the Spartans are packing serious heat. For the UNSC, anyway.
Torga_DW wrote: So 40k marines win any comparison arguments because plot convenience?
I still don't understand why you're so focused on their biological enhancements - thats what armour is for. It just speaks to the shoddiness of 40k armour that they need to invest such considerable resources into the wearers to make up for the armour. Armour which doesn't noticably augment the strength and abilities of the wearer (no statline changes to marines or sisters for wearing it), while the sc marine starts throwing punches like a tank. They usually don't, however, because C-14.
So the sc marines have taken stimms and died after mopping the floor with the 40k marines..... okay, call the jail and get me 100 more prisoners, plenty where they came from. Churn out a few more hundred suits of armour as well, just to be sure. The 40k marines are lurking at the edges of the battlefield trying to recover their precious wargear & geneseed? Have fun with wave 2.
Give me 100 starcraft marines, or failing that give me 1000 other spartans.
Their armor is made out of Ceramite which is an extremely durable and powerful.
Starcraft Marine armor is made from... Steel.
Well that concludes the entirety of the discussion.
The only thing going for it is its recoil resistance. Apparently to the lore it is mostly designed to prevent the massive amounts of recoil from the Gauss Rifle.
Also according to the lore the armor is not as protective as they wish it to be.
According to some of the lore it is easily damaged and a stray bullet can rip open the visor (As seen in many cinematics.)
Asherian Command wrote: Their armor is made out of Ceramite which is an extremely durable and powerful.
Starcraft Marine armor is made from... Steel.
Why are you assuming that ceramite (which is not a real material) is so vastly superior to an equally fictional steel?
According to some of the lore it is easily damaged and a stray bullet can rip open the visor (As seen in many cinematics.)
So what? As I said before this is not a valid way of comparing the two universes. The fact that a Starcraft weapon can easily damage Starcraft armor does not mean that a 40k weapon can do the same, just like the fact that a Culture combat drone might be able to kill another Culture combat drone in one shot does not mean that a space marine would even be capable of scratching the drone's paint.
Yeah, close-combat weapons are pretty useless when employed against a walking tank with rocket launchers for fists. Besides, what can chainswords even do to a Maradur? Maradurs have none of the weakpoints space marine suffers from.
The big thing that favors the marauders: they take drugs.
And those drugs enable them to stutter step like crazy so they can kite just about anything.
I dare the Space Marines to take that many drugs !
A Rhino moving Combat Speed moves 6" (500 meters per your estimate). A Rhino itself is only 3" long (250 meters per your estimate). Per GW the official length of a Rhino is 6.6 meters. Well short of your estimate.
Well he is correct, horizontal space is condensed and it stands to reason that a weapon like a bolter would at least have a 2000 meters effective range, or 3000 meters for a pulse carbine.
Models however, are not condensed in any direction because that would make them look like thin spikey ugly bits of plastic.
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Torga_DW wrote: Thats the problem with using 'ingame' metrics to prove how awesome space marines are. Mjolnir armour is weak because it can only take a couple of plasma rounds before the occupant dies. While with marine armour its pretty much a guaranteed kill with one shot.
Marines don't need power weapons to blow up most tanks in melee, their fists do it just fine. I think we need to bring the hulk into this discussion.
It's not really one shot though, it's normalized to one shot in the rules, but it is assumed that they're firing all the time, even while moving, and that some weapons fire twice as much (assault 2, etc.) and others even more.
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Martel732 wrote: 40K is low-powered because it is a retro-future. We have better targeting in our military today than the Imperium does.
Just a heads up to anyone here who doesn't know, the picture Ash posted is a photoshopped version of the picture in the spoiler tag bellow.
Clearly, the author of the picture wanted to display how he enjoyed both settings. But people like Ash is all for putting space marines on a pedestal, at the cost of losing what little credibility his has left. Most of us here can see the space marines for what they really are: illogical and wasteful in every way.
Asherian Command wrote: Their armor is made out of Ceramite which is an extremely durable and powerful.
Starcraft Marine armor is made from... Steel.
Why are you assuming that ceramite (which is not a real material) is so vastly superior to an equally fictional steel?
Steel is incredibly weaker.
According to the lore Ceramite is incredibly hard and extremely durable. Made from a mix of materials and tampered to be far more stronger than steel.
Steel is not even earth's strongest material Titanium is.
Marine armor (Starcraft) is not as durable as evidenced by the fact that straw bullets kill them quite easily.
AS they also fail quite often in the cinematics to also hit anything.
According to some of the lore it is easily damaged and a stray bullet can rip open the visor (As seen in many cinematics.)
So what? As I said before this is not a valid way of comparing the two universes. The fact that a Starcraft weapon can easily damage Starcraft armor does not mean that a 40k weapon can do the same, just like the fact that a Culture combat drone might be able to kill another Culture combat drone in one shot does not mean that a space marine would even be capable of scratching the drone's paint.
So what? That shows that their armor is not as protective as you people keep saying it is. You guys keep making stuff up just to prolong the argument. That is all that is going on here. Its just four people who keep repeating themselves and only are trying to prove me and many posters who have all said the same thing 40k wins hands down. 40k is one of the strongest SCI-FI universes out there. But it is not the strongest.
ust a heads up to anyone here who doesn't know, the picture Ash posted is a photoshopped version of the picture in the spoiler tag bellow.
Clearly, the author of the picture wanted to display how he enjoyed both settings. But people like Ash is all for putting space marines on a pedestal, at the cost of losing what little credibility his has left. Most of us here can see the space marines for what they really are: illogical and wasteful in every way.
YOu mean how it was editted to how both settings were actually like?
The Starcraft Marines are highly if at all as effective as Space Marines. They fall flat in comparison.
People keep saying all this nonsense such as they don't have better targeting systems than we do today. Even though we have posted several times that is not true.
Such as the Auspex and the helmet visors helping them with that.
And lets not forget that space marines also have terminator armor,
Torga_DW wrote: So 40k marines win any comparison arguments because plot convenience?
Wait, is there any other reason to solve any inter-fictional universe battle than “plot convenience”? I find SC marines cooler and therefore I make up reasons why they win. Asherian does the same with 40k marines. But all those reasons are bogus, there is simply no way to have any meaningful comparison, because there is no common point of reference.
Every goddamn point made in that discussion really boils down to made up reason why fictional characters from different fictional universe with no common reference point are superior to each other. “Ceramite is stronger than whatever metal CMC is made of”. Yeah, neither exist, so we will never get to actually test it. Maybe neither are even physically possible. But hey, let us just state made-up facts like they were self-explanatory.
Redcruisair wrote: Just a heads up to anyone here who doesn't know, the picture Ash posted is a photoshopped version of the picture in the spoiler tag bellow.
Clearly, the author of the picture wanted to display how he enjoyed both settings. But people like Ash is all for putting space marines on a pedestal, at the cost of losing what little credibility his has left. Most of us here can see the space marines for what they really are: illogical and wasteful in every way.
Spoiler:
That is… glorious. Just glorious.
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Asherian Command wrote: The Starcraft Marines are highly at all as effective as Space Marines.
There is another thing marines have in their favor: Healing.
If you are a space marine and get wounded, then mostly you’re all out of luck. You just sit around waiting for an apothecary to come your way, in which case you’re probably already dead and his only here to harvest your leftovers.
Marines on the other hand have medics regally assigned to their squads, who can patch them up in now time. Yes the medics can even heal the aftereffects of Stimpacks, (so much for that prolem, Ash.)
The medivac is even more amazing. Isn’t it thought provoking that, Terran’s have flying healing busses, who uses lasers to operate on marines while said marines are in the middle of a firefight?
Steel is not even earth's strongest material Titanium is.
Wrong.
Either way, the strongest materials are almost always either alloys or better arrangements of already tough materials.
If there's a humanity 38000 years from now, those materials will very likely be made of many thin layers of different materials arranged in a specific way (molecular level lattices) for maximum weight efficiency and the composite factor.
Given what we know from current armor and future technologies, I'd even wager it would also have micro reactive layers in the mix.
Basically, GW technology is either magical or really pitiful for a civilization 1000+ years from now, oftentimes worse than current non-secret weapons.
Starcraft Marines are just cannon fodder so there's no comparison with the IoM's super soldiers.
Redcruisair wrote: There is another thing marines have in their favor: Healing.
If you are a space marine and get wounded, then mostly you’re all out of luck. You just sit around waiting for an apothecary to come your way, in which case you’re probably already dead and his only here to harvest your leftovers.
Marines on the other hand have medics regally assigned to their squads, who can patch them up in now time. Yes the medics can even heal the aftereffects of Stimpacks, (so much for that prolem, Ash.)
The medivac is even more amazing. Isn’t it thought provoking that, Terran’s have flying healing busses, who uses lasers to operate on marines while said marines are in the middle of a firefight?
Apothecaries seem so tame in comparison to that.
Not true, as marines can take quite a bit of damage. As their suits are basically able to repair minor fractures or wounds. Any major injuries will have to be treated by a apothecary.
Medics also have the problem of being extremely prone to being shot in the head and killed rather quickly.
As seen in the cinematic where all the marines were mostly killed by a few shots of the c-14s.
Apothecaries are meant as a last result. Apothecaries can save marines from extremely fatal wounds.
Yet again your comparison falls flat.
As super humans > humans
Space Marines are more effective and better equipped than the STarcraft marines ever are.
The problem is that their armor is made out steel. That is the strongest material they have in their arensal for infantry is nanosteel (Marauder).
Meaning it is inferior to the Adeptus Astartes Power Armor.
Wrong.
Either way, the strongest materials are almost always either alloys or better arrangements of already tough materials.
If there's a humanity 38000 years from now, those materials will very likely be made of many thin layers of different materials arranged in a specific way (molecular level lattices) for maximum weight efficiency and the composite factor.
Given what we know from current armor and future technologies, I'd even wager it would also have micro reactive layers in the mix.
Basically, GW technology is either magical or really pitiful for a civilization 1000+ years from now, oftentimes worse than current non-secret weapons.
Starcraft Marines are just cannon fodder so there's no comparison with the IoM's super soldiers.
Ah so basically ceramite is probably a mixture of materials and materials.
morgoth wrote: Basically, GW technology is either magical or really pitiful for a civilization 1000+ years from now, oftentimes worse than current non-secret weapons.
It’s probably the former, or combination of the two. And you know what? That’s pretty cool.
40K being the byproduct of a bygone age where everything is falling apart, where stagnation and narrow-mindedness are considered to be real virtues, is the thing I enjoy of about 40K. That’s what makes 40K stand out from other sci-fi/space fantasy settings, (granted it’s still just a cheap imitation of Dune, but whatever.)
Asherian Command wrote: That is the strongest material they have in their arensal for infantry is nanosteel (Marauder).
Meaning it is inferior to the Adeptus Astartes Power Armor.
Because fictional non-existing pseudo-science nanosteel is clearly inferior to fictional non-existing pseudo-science ceramite, as shown by… reasons! Non-existing reasons of truth!
Asherian Command wrote: That is the strongest material they have in their arensal for infantry is nanosteel (Marauder).
Meaning it is inferior to the Adeptus Astartes Power Armor.
Because fictional non-existing pseudo-science nanosteel is clearly inferior to fictional non-existing pseudo-science ceramite, as shown by… reasons! Non-existing reasons of truth!
NanoSteel is extremely weak compared to many different types of alloys.
Nanosteel is not more effective than steel its lighter weight and can be layered better than Steel. Allowing you to layer it over and over. But that does not mean it is more effective than Ceramite.
nanosteel exists its just sounds cool and thats about it.
Adamanitum is technically also used in Ceramite but seeing as this is fictionalized vs Fictionalized that argument you used means very little.
They can’t save anyone. Space marines die with one hit.
Apothecaries can only lessen the chance of a mortal wound occurring. They’re all terrible at their jobs!
False
They do not die from one hit like you have said. In the lore it takes multiple hits for a marine to be taken down. Infact the weapons used in the 40ks wars are extremely potent that make no sense to us but do to the marines.
Railguns being extremely old technology to space marines,
and something completely new to the Terran.
Meaning that space marine's heavy weapons are more advanced than you would think.
Apothecaries also often save their patients.
Look up the Battles the Space Marines had against imperial guard. They rarely lost any forces. The only time they have lost a considerable force is if they faced overwhelming numbers.
Asherian Command wrote: That is the strongest material they have in their arensal for infantry is nanosteel (Marauder).
Meaning it is inferior to the Adeptus Astartes Power Armor.
Because fictional non-existing pseudo-science nanosteel is clearly inferior to fictional non-existing pseudo-science ceramite, as shown by… reasons! Non-existing reasons of truth!
No Hybrid, you see. It clearly makes sense to Ash, so we should just accept his words without question it. The gospel of Ash is the single truth, and the only truth.
Asherian Command wrote: Apothecaries are meant as a last result. Apothecaries can save marines from extremely fatal wounds.
They can’t save anyone. Space marines die with one hit.
Apothecaries can only lessen the chance of a mortal wound occurring. They’re all terrible at their jobs!
Where are you getting one hit? You are aware that losing a wound =/= death, right? It's an abstraction for being out of action. The only time where is it certain a model is killed is due to instant death.
Though I think this was really only explained in detail in the 4th ed brb; later editions do not have this explanation. Because GW is lazy and bad at their jobs.
Asherian Command wrote: That is the strongest material they have in their arensal for infantry is nanosteel (Marauder).
Meaning it is inferior to the Adeptus Astartes Power Armor.
Because fictional non-existing pseudo-science nanosteel is clearly inferior to fictional non-existing pseudo-science ceramite, as shown by… reasons! Non-existing reasons of truth!
No Hybrid, you see. It clearly makes sense to Ash, so we should just accept his words without question it. The gospel of Ash is the single truth, and the only truth.
Only fools think I am all knowing.
In this case you have only insulted me and my opinion.
Nanosteel is completely inferior due to the fact that it needs to be layered in order for it to be even close to being effective.
Asherian Command wrote: Nanosteel is completely inferior due to the fact that it needs to be layered in order for it to be even close to being effective.
Oh, that is very clear. Also, writing a RNG is very very hard. And tons of other stuff. That is common sense! No need to do any actual research on it.
Asherian Command wrote: Infact the weapons used in the 40ks wars are extremely potent that make no sense to us but do to the marines.
I think you've got it backwards. The weapons and technology of 40K are faulty and nonsensical. That’s the whole point with 40K.
Asherian Command wrote: Railguns being extremely old technology to space marines, and something completely new to the Terran.
Source?
Asherian Command wrote: Meaning that space marine's heavy weapons are more advanced than you would think.
I REALLY doubt that. Missile launchers and oversized bolters don’t in anyway appear amazingly advanced to me. Only the plasma cannon have that cool sceincy vibe to it. But I’m not that impressed with it, given it’s as likely to kill its wielder as its intended target.
Asherian Command wrote: Apothecaries are meant as a last result. Apothecaries can save marines from extremely fatal wounds.
They can’t save anyone. Space marines die with one hit.
Apothecaries can only lessen the chance of a mortal wound occurring. They’re all terrible at their jobs!
Uhhh... Marines have excellent self healing capabilities. Apothecaries are more for the "Half of the body blown off" wounds.
Not shown in the game.
It is shown in game. You just don't read the after math or the lore.
There is difference between a Casualty and a confirmed kill.
Then single him out and kill him. There it’s done. No more healing for the space marines.
One apothecary per company is just laughable compared to what a simple Terran militia can muster.
There is only one apothecary because that is all they need.
The Terran marines won't get the drop on a super human. Good luck.
Or in the fluff, really.
In the fluff marines take out whole planets and can pacify it in a week.
The Raven Guard knowingly operate behind enemy lines with very little ammunition.
Source?
Space Marine Ships have a railgun on the starboard of their ship.
The basic physical principle behind Railgun technology is well known to the Adeptus Mechanicus, but the Imperium has never been able to utilise it in a worthwhile form due to the myriad of issues inherent in the operation of such weapons. The limitations of such technology include the staggering amount of power required to propel the projectile along the rail, and the dissipation of the heat generated by the process. The Tau appear to have implemented solutions to these problems, and many Hereteks amongst the Adeptus Mechanicus would very much like to understand how.
The Imperium have superior weapons called beam weaponry, which basically makes the the entire need to have a railgun nullified. It is useful but it is a single round burst that makes the weapon quite inferior.
(as today we can actually build Rail Guns)
Considering marines have to constantly fight against railguns. (with railguns being used on tau vechiles.)
And the Marines usually pulling off victory after victory against the Tau forces and the Tau almost being competely defeated by a Single Crusade Fleet that barely had any titans or support. But left because there was more important fish to fry.
T4. That's where that 4 comes from. It represents all the enhancements, including healing factor.
To put it in perspective -
Orks are T4. They are meant to be nearly insensitive to pain, and their wounds seal up, due to the properties of their blood and flesh
Necrons are T4. They are made out of metal
It would be quite impressive, if S4+ weapons weren't so common. WHFB is a bit better at making T4 attractive in this regard. I like to think of this as a form of inflation, probably having something to do with the popularity of marine armies.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: T4.
That's where that 4 comes from. It represents all the enhancements, including healing factor.
To put it in perspective -
Orks are T4. They are meant to be nearly insensitive to pain, and their wounds seal up, due to the properties of their blood and flesh
Necrons are T4. They are made out of metal
By game mechanics, that isn't very impressive with the amount of firepower thrown about. It certainly doesn't support the low amount of space marine casualties in many stories in the fluff.
Bolter shots will kill them 1/6th of the time, Pulse Rifles: 2/9ths, Lasguns: 1/9th and so on.
So Marines wading through enemy fire and emerging alive is not a statistical likelihood, if T4 and a 3+ save is meant to represent all of their toughness super powers.
It is also shown by the fact that when a space marine gets a strength boost as well compared to regular human.
Marines have t4 and s4. While Regular imperial guard have t3 and s3.
Remember any weapon that has strength twice as much as the toughness suffer instant death rules.
A marine bolter tearing apart the flesh of orks quite easily and killing guardsmen quite easily.
By game mechanics, that isn't very impressive with the amount of firepower thrown about. It certainly doesn't support the low amount of space marine casualties in many stories in the fluff.
Bolter shots will kill them 1/6th of the time, Pulse Rifles: 2/9ths, Lasguns: 1/9th and so on.
So Marines wading through enemy fire and emerging alive is not a statistical likelihood, if T4 and a 3+ save is meant to represent all of their toughness super powers.
Stastically it isbetter than most other races.
With eldar often suffering major casualities versus space marines.
And Orks suffering horrifying highdeaths.
You also have to remember that space marines during the crusades lost a company and that was considered normal.
Space marines only deploy now as shock troopers.
The mere sight of a marine stirs fear within any.
Considering the fact also marines only die after being blown to small bits it is extremely funny to hear people say. "Nah. They can't"
It is also shown by the fact that when a space marine gets a strength boost as well compared to regular human.
Marines have t4 and s4. While Regular imperial guard have t3 and s3.
Remember any weapon that has strength twice as much as the toughness suffer instant death rules.
A marine bolter tearing apart the flesh of orks quite easily and killing guardsmen quite easily.
Until said guardsmen gets behind some cover. Marein bolters are one of the worst weapons in the game. The more you smack talk about them, the more ridiculous you look. You're probably just trolling anyway.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: T4. That's where that 4 comes from. It represents all the enhancements, including healing factor.
To put it in perspective -
Orks are T4. They are meant to be nearly insensitive to pain, and their wounds seal up, due to the properties of their blood and flesh
Necrons are T4. They are made out of metal
By game mechanics, that isn't very impressive with the amount of firepower thrown about. It certainly doesn't support the low amount of space marine casualties in many stories in the fluff.
Bolter shots will kill them 1/6th of the time, Pulse Rifles: 2/9ths, Lasguns: 1/9th and so on.
So Marines wading through enemy fire and emerging alive is not a statistical likelihood, if T4 and a 3+ save is meant to represent all of their toughness super powers.
Yeah, it's one of the oddities of the game. It's a form of inflation, really. How popular were S4 weapon in earlier editions of the game? How did power armor work?
Iirc, Terminator armor worked differently to now; back then it was a fail on a roll of a 2 or a 3 on a 2d6, resulting in a 2/36 chance of failure. To put it in perspective, Terminator armor has a 1/6 chance of failing. Did such a change result from a greater presence of terminators on the field?
Terminators were still garbage. Bolters were still garbage. 2nd ed was all about fast tyranids abusing the "shoot the closest squad" rule and sonic blasters team up with blight grenades and Eldar instant-death weapons. The marines were actually unplayable in 2nd.
It is also shown by the fact that when a space marine gets a strength boost as well compared to regular human.
Marines have t4 and s4. While Regular imperial guard have t3 and s3.
Remember any weapon that has strength twice as much as the toughness suffer instant death rules.
A marine bolter tearing apart the flesh of orks quite easily and killing guardsmen quite easily.
Until said guardsmen gets behind some cover. Marein bolters are one of the worst weapons in the game. The more you smack talk about them, the more ridiculous you look. You're probably just trolling anyway.
You have only used board rules and tabletop rules. I am stinking them in the middle using both their lore and tabletop rules together to create what could be considered realistic.
I'm really just tweaking your nose in that how different the marines are in practice from their fluff. But, again, the fluff can be anything any author writes down. The game, however, is in print , and is much more quantifiable.
Martel732 wrote: Terminators were still garbage. Bolters were still garbage. 2nd ed was all about fast tyranids abusing the "shoot the closest squad" rule and sonic blasters team up with blight grenades and Eldar instant-death weapons. The marines were actually unplayable in 2nd.
Stop making things up.
All you have done is say things.
I can literally make a call and get a 2nd edition rulebook. Quite Quickly. You have only made things up in terms of rules and only proved your terrible knowledge of the board game and its history.
now I know you are making stuff up. 3rd Edition Terminators were extremely good, fourth edition as well. 5th Edition is when they slid down into not being good as more and more races had access to high strength weapons.
Back in fourth there were barely any strength 10 or ap 1 weaponry in the entire game.
The Marines and Eldar having most of the weaponry.
I'm really just tweaking your nose in that how different the marines are in practice from their fluff. But, again, the fluff can be anything any author writes down. The game, however, is in print , and is much more quantifiable.
According to you.
There have been many marine loses the Fall of Damnos being quite famous as a defeat yet having lost very few marines.
You keep saying that but you keep forgeting the terran have the same thing.
The Equal footing and ideas the terran marines are better because they are more advanced is hilarious as they do not have medical technology within their armor that stops clots.
Space Marines have been shown time and time again as being better than the average human.
Yarrick is T4. He is a BAMF.
Yarrick is also mostly bionics and cybernetic enhancements to the point of being ridiculous.
Asherian Command wrote: I am stinking them in the middle using both their lore and tabletop rules together to create what could be considered realistic.
Asherian Command wrote: I am stinking them in the middle using both their lore and tabletop rules together to create what could be considered realistic.
Realistic .
If we're going realistic then any stray round into a space marines power pack could melt them with radiation.
Asherian Command wrote: Back in fourth there were barely any strength 10 or ap 1 weaponry in the entire game.
I had S8 AP1 weapons all over my codex from 3rd edition onward. Inferno pistol, melta, multi-melta, exorcist missiles. Also remember that all power weapons used to be AP2.
Six hundred years before the arrival of the Sin of Damnation, the Blood Angels' entire chapter was decimated during a failed assault on another space hulk in the Secoris system, leaving only fifty marines in the whole chapter.
Asherian Command wrote: I am stinking them in the middle using both their lore and tabletop rules together to create what could be considered realistic.
Realistic .
If we're going realistic then any stray round into a marines power pack could melt them with radiation.
So basically, a marine is a walking A-Bomb.
That makes the Angry Marine launcher much scarier.
Asherian Command wrote: Back in fourth there were barely any strength 10 or ap 1 weaponry in the entire game.
I had S8 AP1 weapons all over my codex from 3rd edition onward. Inferno pistol, melta, multi-melta, exorcist missiles. Also remember that all power weapons used to be AP2.
Short ranged though, and not deployed in great numbers.
Exorcists are AP1? Aren't they just glorified krak missiles?
Marines also tended to have access to more power weapons.
There was at least 1 power weapon in every marine squad back when I played in 4th.
As a necron, it was very painful.
Asherian Command wrote: I am stinking them in the middle using both their lore and tabletop rules together to create what could be considered realistic.
Realistic .
If we're going realistic then any stray round into a marines power pack could melt them with radiation.
You mean the Terran Marines?
Because that is very true. A stray bullet could kill an entire marine.
Lets not forget during the Battle of Istavaan 3 after the life eater virus was unleashed anyone that had any battle injuries were immedately killed by the virus within seconds.
The most powerful weapons terrans have.. ARe nukes.
The Imperium has cyconle missles, and weapons that make the terran marines look inferior.
Space marines have plasma, Lascannons, rockets (krak (implosion) and frag (Explosion))
Meaning the Space Marines have far superior heavy weapons and armor and tactics.
They are also warriors without peer. And very rarely are they taken down.
Space marines are also immune to raditiation almost all forms of posioning. (Except in very rare cases)
The only ones who would stand a chance are Terran Ghosts.
But they still lack the protection of a Space Marine.
Ghosts die rather quickly once spotted by a group of marines. (Terran)
Considering how easy they can kill a Terran Marine. The Only equals to space marines are Ghosts.
Yeah, sniper rifles out range bolters.
Not sure if it will pierce the armor though. Maybe in a joint or something.
Or the apparently-explosive backpack.
Six hundred years before the arrival of the Sin of Damnation, the Blood Angels' entire chapter was decimated during a failed assault on another space hulk in the Secoris system, leaving only fifty marines in the whole chapter.
A Space Marine chapter known as the Invaders destroyed an entire craftworld.
A space marine chapter known as the minotaurs destroyed a superiorly armed chapter fleet quite easily.
Don’t worry. Shooting the guy will do the trick. Apothecaries always stand out from their brethren like a sore thumb.
And should a Terran commander consider the Apothecary to be an important enough target, then a Ghost will get the drop on them, trust me.
Not really space marines can still detect cloaked units. The Imperium have assassins that are quite superior. Considering that marines go for the throat. Meaning by the time the terran marines learn that the space marines are there. All information is cut and all the Space Marines have gone and killed the entire command structure. Ghosts will lose their edge without a compentent commanders. Marines do not go in for one on one battle they are special forces and shock troopers they go for enemy commanders.
They are not meant for wars of attrition. That is not what they are used for.
Let me clarify. Where does it say Terrans only recently discovered railguns?
Diamond Backs are relatively rediscovered technology on diamond backs. But they are not that effective and are shown to be not as powerful as shipboard railguns.
I can literally make a call and get a 2nd edition rulebook. Quite Quickly. You have only made things up in terms of rules and only proved your terrible knowledge of the board game and its history.
now I know you are making stuff up. 3rd Edition Terminators were extremely good, fourth edition as well. 5th Edition is when they slid down into not being good as more and more races had access to high strength weapons. "
I HAVE a 2nd edition rulebook. That's not the point. The good stuff is all in the army codices of 2nd ed. Of which you clearly have no real knowledge or played in a very weak meta. Don't forget pulsa rokkit spam.
Terminators weren't good in 3rd because of the advent of power weapons and making plasma go from -2 armor save to AP 2. Let me repeat this: in metas where players know what they were doing, terminators were rarely good, with a few notable exceptions.
Marines were good in 3rd because of rhino rush and the liberal ways to get into HTH.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Short ranged though, and not deployed in great numbers.
All kind of range: 6", 12", 24" 48".
Not deployed in great number? A BSS can be fitted with 2 melta 1 combi-melta, 2 bolters, in an immolator with multi-melta. A dominion squad can be fitted with 4 melta, 1 combi-melta, in an immolator with multi-melta. Each exorcist fire d6. A seraphim squad with 6 bolt pistols, 4 inferno pistols. I can have much more S8 AP1 shots that I have bolter shots in my army.
Asherian Command wrote: I am stinking them in the middle using both their lore and tabletop rules together to create what could be considered realistic.
Realistic .
If we're going realistic then any stray round into a marines power pack could melt them with radiation.
So basically, a marine is a walking A-Bomb.
That makes the Angry Marine launcher much scarier.
Not necessarily an A-bomb, but certainly a walking Chernobyl or Fukushima.
Asherian Command wrote: I am stinking them in the middle using both their lore and tabletop rules together to create what could be considered realistic.
Realistic .
If we're going realistic then any stray round into a marines power pack could melt them with radiation.
So basically, a marine is a walking A-Bomb.
That makes the Angry Marine launcher much scarier.
Not necessarily an A-bomb, but certainly a walking Chernobyl or Fukushima.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, sniper rifles out range bolters.
Not sure if it will pierce the armor though. Maybe in a joint or something.
Or the apparently-explosive backpack.
A space marine backpack is.. A backpack with environmental systems for pressurized areas. In the lore these things are really hard to damage and are very heavily armored .
There is no fusion reactor in it. It is an unknown power source that according to the lore is infinite.
I have yet to read a space marine running out of power for his suit.
A ghost cannot take out a hundred marines. A ghost is a comparision and the only people able to be able to reasonably take it out. But space marines have fairly more capable weaponry. Such as the Kraken Bolters and lascannons being able to outrange anything the Terran Marines have on hand.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Short ranged though, and not deployed in great numbers.
All kind of range: 6", 12", 24" 48".
Not deployed in great number? A BSS can be fitted with 2 melta 1 combi-melta, 2 bolters, in an immolator with multi-melta. A dominion squad can be fitted with 4 melta, 1 combi-melta, in an immolator with multi-melta. Each exorcist fire d6. A seraphim squad with 6 bolt pistols, 4 inferno pistols. I can have much more S8 AP1 shots that I have bolter shots in my army.
I can literally make a call and get a 2nd edition rulebook. Quite Quickly. You have only made things up in terms of rules and only proved your terrible knowledge of the board game and its history.
now I know you are making stuff up. 3rd Edition Terminators were extremely good, fourth edition as well. 5th Edition is when they slid down into not being good as more and more races had access to high strength weapons. "
I HAVE a 2nd edition rulebook. That's not the point. The good stuff is all in the army codices of 2nd ed. Of which you clearly have no real knowledge or played in a very weak meta. Don't forget pulsa rokkit spam.
Terminators weren't good in 3rd because of the advent of power weapons and making plasma go from -2 armor save to AP 2. Let me repeat this: in metas where players know what they were doing, terminators were rarely good, with a few notable exceptions.
Marines were good in 3rd because of rhino rush and the liberal ways to get into HTH.
I laugh at you quite much.
Use the quotes button please.
In 3rd ed. Which I played in with my brother Terminators were extremely good when in combination with assualt marines. Combat rules ruled supreme in 4th and 3rd edition.
As terminator squads would deploy and slaughter entire units.
3rd also did not have those rules. You are maing it up again. I played third ed.
Power weapons only forced +3 armor saves to take an invulnerable save.
+2 did not.
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thenoobbomb wrote: I think several of the HH novels mention Marines charging their backpacks..
That was old technology remember. Space marine weaponry has evolved since the year 30k.
As evidence by the new marks of space marine armor and bolters being further improved.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, sniper rifles out range bolters.
Not sure if it will pierce the armor though. Maybe in a joint or something.
Or the apparently-explosive backpack.
The rounds fired by Ghosts can pierce the thick carapace of an Ultralisk, so it should work fine against power armor.
Besides, power armor has major flaws in its design. The eyes, backpack, armor joints and the neck area are all weak points a skilled marksman can take advantage of.
That is not true. They have the psi emitter. Zerging up your bases.
Asherian Command wrote: Space marines are also immune to raditiation almost all forms of posioning. (Except in very rare cases)
As evidenced by the fact they are affected by every poison in the game .
Asherian Command wrote: A space marine chapter known as the minotaurs destroyed a superiorly armed chapter fleet quite easily.
40k marines are able to kill other 40k marines. Therefore they are better than Starcraft marines.
Asherian logic™.
Asherian Command wrote: Meaning by the time the terran marines learn that the space marines are there. All information is cut and all the Space Marines have gone and killed the entire command structure.
Or that little thing called a detection tower worked, and the drop pod were decimated by missile tower anyway .
Asherian Command wrote: Marines do not go in for one on one battle they are special forces and shock troopers they go for enemy commanders. They are not meant for wars of attrition. That is not what they are used for.
Sure, that is how they are consistently portrayed in all of 40k fluff .
Asherian Command wrote: Diamond Backs are relatively rediscovered technology on diamond backs.
You do realize that
a) 40k railguns are not the same as Starcraft railguns anyway, and
b) only Tau have railguns in 40k, space marines have none of them and those are extremely powerful against them. By your logic, a diamondback would obliterate space marines like there is no tomorrow.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, sniper rifles out range bolters. Not sure if it will pierce the armor though. Maybe in a joint or something. Or the apparently-explosive backpack.
The rounds fired by Ghosts can pierce the thick carapace of an Ultralisk, so it should work fine against power armor.
Besides, power armor has major flaws in its design. The eyes, backpack, armor joints and the neck area are all weak points a skilled marksman can take advantage of.
The Neck is extremely hard to hit though. Eldar have been one of the few to actually pull this off.
Eyes (Incredibly small target)
Backpack (Stronger than you think)
ARmor Joints (possible but again are protected by armor in the front. Considering they are covered up.
Face it your only grasping at straws Hybrid.
Diamond backs are out of the picture once a marine shots it with a lascannon.
.
