BlackTalos wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

There is NO cannon for 40k, just peoples' views. So we're back to all using IMO

Every time someone says that. They are mostly saying that to get out of an argument or discussion or trying to make every point sound stupid and nebilious. We call this straw manning and distracting from main points. Instead of taking the words of actual lore and agreeing with it, you just basically shut down everyones argument because of some idiot literally said that once.

And has not been confirmed ever since.

Sorry, i should have backed up the statement: Lynta on why there is no canon in 40K:

Spoiler:

 Lynata wrote:
So, I'm gonna leave my usual set of quotes here:

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden

... bottom line, 40k is what you make of it. The gamers and the readers are supposed to take possession of the setting and shape it as befits their individual preferences and purposes. It took me quite a while to "get this", for like many I came to the franchise believing that everything was supposed to fit together - an "urban myth" that even now is still propagated by some because that's what they were told from other fans ..

I'm a bit confused, though. Isn't the option "everything yet nothing" essentially the same as "things you agree with, nothing more"?

[edit] Oh, I forgot, I should write a bit about how I deal with the subject myself ...

Me, I'm staying as close to the GW studio fluff as possible, meaning the contents of codices, the rulebooks, magazines such as White Dwarf or Citadel Journal (RIP) and the stuff hosted on the various websites (free PDFs and short articles). Aside from me "growing up" with the tone and style of the studio's own writing, I also believe that this approach keeps me more compatible to the majority of future products from this origin than if I were to embrace one of the outsourced outlets of fluff instead, simply because all the GW stuff is written by the same circle of people (aside from the occasional change in personnel that occurs over the years), compared to the ideas and interpretations of the many, many different individual writers that work on novels etc. Many cooks, broth, etc. Even now, after over two decades, you still find references and even straight copied passages of text from the earliest days of the franchise in the newest rulebook. That is a consistency unparalleled by any other source of fluff, and I'm all for consistency.

Last but not least, even with the "laissez-faire" approach that GW has taken on the setting, it seems that people - including other authors - tend to look to GW for orientation first. This can be witnessed on outsourced material quickly picking up on, for example, the "Newcrons", rather than ignoring this pseudo-retcon. This exchange of ideas actually works both ways, but GW seems notably less likely to adopt something from BL (etc.) than the other way around. And don't count on seeing the contents of one BL novel referenced in another, except perhaps when they're part of a series .. and even then you'll have conflicts.
When it comes to GW sources, I'm also going with "newer source overrides older source" in case of any contradictions that cannot be worked around.

That doesn't mean that I do not incorporate anything that has not been printed elsewhere into my own personal interpretation of the 41st millennium, however. There are a number of aspects from various novels and games that I have adopted into my perspective as well, all depending on how cool I subjectively thought they were, as well as (perhaps even more important) how well they fit in or can be made to fit in. In this, I do not incorporate the entire product but just the things I liked.

The cherrypicking from non-GW sources is something I rarely discuss here, however, simply because that is even more personal and subjective than my preference for GW fluff, which I also regard as a sort of "common ground" between us. So, whenever I'm posting about fluff, consider it to be referring to GW material. Any exceptions to this will be specially marked by me, and usually take the form of suggestions of something to potentially draw inspiration from if the reader likes what he or she sees.

Interesting. I remember reading this a while ago I will think about and its application. Seeing as the common ground is the codexes...

See, that's where basic knowledge of science could help you look smarter.

I suggest wikipedia, looking up what a Plasma is, what the relation to a fusion powered stellar body is, and how exactly that "miniature star" would behave on a battlefield.

Hint: it can only transfer so much heat as it was given to begin with, dissipates some along the way, does not obliterate the whole squad when containment fails.

Calling it a miniature star is a huge stretch if it can't even damage a Leman Russ.

The plasma "bolts" fired by these weapons explode on impact and generate the destructive heat of a small sun,

Thats from the space marine codex.

This probably says alot about how thick space marine and leman russ armor is in general as it is able to withstand a sun. As apparently melta weapons are even stronger. But the trade off being a melta weapon runs out of ammo quite quickly compared to a plasma weapon, and a plasma weapon is meant as an anti-infantry weapon.

We're all laughing at you, so I guess that's only fair.

No you are laughing at me, because of immaturity and thinking you are winning.

Well, you certainly didn’t read Mark Of Calth.

Mark of Calth is techincally noncanon and not taking place in the world of 40k. Its an interpretation. When in parts of the lore mostly the Horus Heresy book supplied by GW ie. the Collected visions says this is not true and has space marines fighting on the surface of Calth.

This is a contradiction and one that means that the mark of Calth is non-canon.

He doesn't need to take out a hundred marines though.

And he's a Psyker.

He/she might be, but they aren't very strong pyskers. Starcraft's pyschic powers are extremely limited compared to 40ks. The strongest pysker in starcraft is Sarah Kerrigan who can destroy a battlecruiser realitvely easily. The strongest type of pysker in 40k is an Alpha level pysker. Who can control entire planets, Alpha Levels are extremely rare. A Space Marine Librarian is noted to being quite strong pysker, their powers can be various, and with a flick of their hand can send someone into a bursting inferno.

Ghosts are assassins. Not frontline troops. Anyone that thinks different hasn't read the lore. Ghosts die rather quickly in the lore and also Ghosts do not have powerful pyschic powers as a ground troop. The most basic ghost can only read minds.

A spectre is very different in comparision. Which is more powerful version of a ghost.

Yes, yes you are.

Defamation won't get you anywhere here.

Watching Morgoth trash talk others, when he himself is notorious for getting everything wrong on so many treads.

I have seen that several times. He has already made several wrong statements.

Basically you're conflating a credible scientific projection that I make with the undefined mythic material called ceramite of which we know only one thing: "power armor spehs mareeehn best metal".

Ceramite is nothing until it's been properly defined by GW, which is exactly what's wrong with everything technological in the 40K fluff: it sucks balls. It's not real sci-fi, it's low quality futuristic fantasy.

Heres the thing. If you try to define something that does not exist, it only becomes technobabble. Unless you actually know what it is.

Such as someone trying to delve into time travel. You can explain it all you want in a book. But that doesn't make it correct or anyway quantifable or in anyway similar.

Starcraft does a very similar thing where it only states a real world material and does not go the cliched route of making up a new material entirely.

Even though there are stronger materials that do exist outside of steel.

The stories and the universe are nice and all, but there is no depth, no illusion of another world that lasts more than a few seconds because the background is so simple yet dumb and devoid of science (even lite or fiction).



In that context, the only thing we can say about the power armor is that according to Astartes, it's totally badass, as is just about everything in the game according to the lore (really who isn't über in their own fluff ???).

The comparison with Starcraft Marines can only be done in relative terms: Space Marines are elite units whereas Starcraft Marines are cannon fodder.

Considering space marines can survive from missile explosions, heavy bolters and their own weaponry relatively easily. Tt says alot more about their armor and protection than them getting killed by a minitature sun weapons.

In context of the lore space marines die quite often. It is stupid to think that space marines haven't lost any battles. Such as the Battle of Damnos and the Eye of Terror Campagin. Or the Babd War. Which techincally was a lose for a few chapters of space marines.

Or the last stand of the Lamenters.

Or the Extinction of the Emperor's Scythe.

Each chapter is different in how it deploys its space marines.

But space marines according to the codexes are in fact shock troopers. It is just romanticized to seem like they fight on the front lines.

Aren't space marines a little like orks? If an injury doesn't immediately kill them then chances are they will stabilise within minutes, even if in extreme cases it means dropping into a sus-an coma, and eventually recover (through their improved healing and availability of bionics).

Sorta kind of. Orks are extremely tough, but.... they are strength 3. Not strength 4. Which is the strength of a space marine.

Making that equivalency kind of false.

It is believed that the space marines are given more strength from their power armor.

Space marines also don't have spores on their backs that serves as a means to reproduce.

 Asherian Command wrote:

The plasma "bolts" fired by these weapons explode on impact and generate the destructive heat of a small sun,

Thats from the space marine codex.

This probably says alot about how thick space marine and leman russ armor is in general as it is able to withstand a sun. As apparently melta weapons are even stronger. But the trade off being a melta weapon runs out of ammo quite quickly compared to a plasma weapon, and a plasma weapon is meant as an anti-infantry weapon.

That mainly says a lot about your understanding of physics.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Mark of Calth is techincally noncanon and not taking place in the world of 40k. Its an interpretation. When in parts of the lore mostly the Horus Heresy book supplied by GW ie. the Collected visions says this is not true and has space marines fighting on the surface of Calth.

This is a contradiction and one that means that the mark of Calth is non-canon.

Ahh it doesn’t support your prefect image of space marines, so you discard the entire novel as non-canon. That’s rich.

Sorry Ash, but nothing I quoted contradicts the Collected version. I have that book as well, so don’t try and lie again to get yourself out of this. I’ll notice it immediately if you try it.

Combat does indeed take place on Calth's surface, but it happens during the night time and only for a limited time, as prolonged exposure to the surface erodes the power armor’s protective qualities.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Watching Morgoth trash talk others, when he himself is notorious for getting everything wrong on so many treads.

I have seen that several times. He has already made several wrong statements.

However, in this case his comment about you is 100% correct.
Instead of getting offended, maybe you should take this opportunity to reflect upon your behavior and find a way to improve it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

The plasma "bolts" fired by these weapons explode on impact and generate the destructive heat of a small sun,

Thats from the space marine codex.

This probably says alot about how thick space marine and leman russ armor is in general as it is able to withstand a sun. As apparently melta weapons are even stronger. But the trade off being a melta weapon runs out of ammo quite quickly compared to a plasma weapon, and a plasma weapon is meant as an anti-infantry weapon.

That mainly says a lot about your understanding of physics.

Not really. ITs more their understanding of physics.

Not my own.

I am using their physics not real world physics. 40ks is very unique as it ignores certain rules and things. But think of the plasma bolt as basically being incased in a solid projectile but once it reachs the target their is a chemical reaction that helps spread the actual star. Its a miniature explosion that has the heat of the sun, but big as a star.

We have not seen this weapon in action for all we know this weapon also causes severe graviational pulls from the creations of objects. Its fed constantly from the plasma. As Plasma in 40k explodes.

Which either means their plasma is extremely advanced or beyond our understanding. The only drawback is it gets hot.

Ahh it doesn’t support your prefect image of space marines, so you discard the entire novel as non-canon. That’s rich.

Sorry Ash, but nothing I quoted contradicts the Collected version. I have that book as well, so don’t try and lie again to get yourself out of this. I’ll notice it immediately if you try it.

Combat does indeed take place on surface on Calth, but it happens during the night time and only for a limited time, as prolonged exposure to the surface erodes the power armor’s protective qualities.

Read Lyantas Comment. Anything made by the black library or TFG are techincally non-canon or proganda.

Yes it does many of the things you have quoted contradict it. The book does not say anything about the radiation, as there was fighting on the surface of calth as well even after the explosion.

^Last time you said it was impossible for space marines to fight on there.

Now you are saying they can only at night!

However, in this case his comment about you is 100% correct.
Instead of getting offended, maybe you should take this opportunity to reflect upon your behavior and find a way to improve it.

Hmm? How am I doing that? Maybe you are quoting the wrong bit.

This is me agreeing with someone that Morgoth has said some incorrect things.

 Redcruisair wrote:
I have that book as well, so don’t try and lie again to get yourself out of this.

Sun, do not rise in the east and set in the west!

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am using their physics not real world physics.

You are using your own version of physics .

 Asherian Command wrote:
We have not seen this weapon in action for all we know this weapon also causes severe graviational pulls from the creations of objects. Its fed constantly from the plasma. As Plasma in 40k explodes.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Which either means their plasma is extremely advanced or beyond our understanding.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Read Lyantas Comment. Anything made by the black library or TFG are techincally non-canon or proganda.

I am unsure of what is going on ITT.

Half the thread seems to compare game mechanics to fluff and vice versa.

Besides, Prophet would kill them all anyway.

The Doom marine too.

I think the best matchup is clone troopers vs Halo Spartans.

You are using your own version of physics .

According to 40k humans can survive in space, their ships are able to turn in space even though you need a engine to push you to that direction to turn you need an engine to push it in space.

According to 40k there is a thing called a pysker.

According to 40k the most powerful creatures in existence are created from emotions and thoughts.

Please tell me how you can think that 40k can have any reasonable grasp of physics if it has alot of things that are impossible in real life?

I am unsure of what is going on ITT.

Half the thread seems to compare game mechanics to fluff and vice versa.

Besides, Prophet would kill them all anyway.

The Doom marine too.

Prophet?

I think the best matchup is clone troopers vs Halo Spartans.

I don't think so.

Spartans and Starcraft Marines would be quite interesting match up though.

I think the starcraft marines might have a chance as long as they are smart.

 Asherian Command wrote:

You are using your own version of physics .

According to 40k humans can survive in space, their ships are able to turn in space even though you need a engine to push you to that direction to turn you need an engine to push it in space.

According to 40k there is a thing called a pysker.

According to 40k the most powerful creatures in existence are created from emotions and thoughts.

Please tell me how you can think that 40k can have any reasonable grasp of physics if it has alot of things that are impossible in real life?

Remember that this is an alternate universe. It can have totally different physics

 Dalek Sec wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

You are using your own version of physics .

According to 40k humans can survive in space, their ships are able to turn in space even though you need a engine to push you to that direction to turn you need an engine to push it in space.

According to 40k there is a thing called a pysker.

According to 40k the most powerful creatures in existence are created from emotions and thoughts.

Please tell me how you can think that 40k can have any reasonable grasp of physics if it has alot of things that are impossible in real life?

Remember that this is an alternate universe. It can have totally different physics

Yes everytime I raise a point people just ignore it and start poking fun.

Different universes could have different rules in terms of physics.

 Asherian Command wrote:
According to 40k humans can survive in space, their ships are able to turn in space even though you need a engine to push you to that direction to turn you need an engine to push it in space.

Have you heard? We sent some people on the moon. This implies them surviving in space (well, inside the ship, of course, but I doubt 40k has human surviving in space without any kind of suit), and their ship was able to turn in space, just like most satellites actually!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
According to 40k humans can survive in space, their ships are able to turn in space even though you need a engine to push you to that direction to turn you need an engine to push it in space.

Have you heard? We sent some people on the moon. This implies them surviving in space (well, inside the ship, of course, but I doubt 40k has human surviving in space without any kind of suit), and their ship was able to turn in space, just like most satellites actually!

Your just acting stupid.

ACcording to 40k there are humans who survive without their helmets. (IE Imperial guard)

It doesn't imply your just being extremely rude and constantly trying to close this thread and trolling

You have not helped in this discussion and have only caused strife hybrid.

 Asherian Command wrote:
ACcording to 40k there are humans who survive without their helmets. (IE Imperial guard)

Outside of some plant with a compatible atmosphere? Source? Because inside some earth-like atmosphere… yeah, this happens a lot.

 Asherian Command wrote:
You have not helped in this discussion and have only caused strife hybrid.

Sure. I did, while you were exemplar. That is what everyone seems to be agreeing upon.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
ACcording to 40k there are humans who survive without their helmets. (IE Imperial guard)

Outside of some plant with a compatible atmosphere? Source? Because inside some earth-like atmosphere… yeah, this happens a lot.

 Asherian Command wrote:
You have not helped in this discussion and have only caused strife hybrid.

Sure. I did, while you were exemplar. That is what everyone seems to be agreeing upon.

There are certain guardsmen that do not wear helmets and fight without their helmets in space. IE CAdia some of the pictures have guardsmen without their helmets and breathers on.

You have been?

I am telling you to stop being a jerk to people.

 Asherian Command wrote:
There are certain guardsmen that do not wear helmets and fight without their helmets in space. IE CAdia some of the pictures have guardsmen without their helmets and breathers on.

Source.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I am telling you to stop being a jerk to people.

And I am telling you, try to look at your own behavior.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Read Lyantas Comment. Anything made by the black library or TFG are techincally non-canon or proganda.

I respect Lyanta as I would any other human being, but I’m not in any way obliged to adopt her interpretation GW’s products. BL has GW’s mark upon it, that’s all that is needed for it to be cannon.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yes it does many of the things you have quoted contradict it. The book does not say anything about the radiation, as there was fighting on the surface of calth as well even after the explosion.

If the Collected Vision stated the following “Space Marines can operate without peril on the radiated surface of Calth” then you would have a point. However, it doesn’t say anything of the sort, so there's no contradiction.

 Asherian Command wrote:
^Last time you said it was impossible for space marines to fight on there.

NO Ash. This is what I said. Please stop lying.

 Redcruisair wrote:
They also die from radiation on Calth, even while being fully equipped with power armor.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Now you are saying they can only at night!

Yes, at night they can operate on the surface for limited time. It all fits in with what is said about the war of Calth in general. Word Bears attacks Calth. The ultramarines strike back. Both factions are forced below underground. Word Bears loses the underground war and are forced to take shelter in abandoned ruins on the surface. Ultramarines carry out nightly raids on the Word Bears’ few remaining surface-strongholds.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Hmm? How am I doing that? Maybe you are quoting the wrong bit.

This is me agreeing with someone that Morgoth has said some incorrect things.

I referred to the part where he comments on your attitude in this thread. Feel free to go back and re-read his post if you’re unsure of what I mean.

 Asherian Command wrote:


There are certain guardsmen that do not wear helmets and fight without their helmets in space. IE CAdia some of the pictures have guardsmen without their helmets and breathers on.

Using google I can't find any images of guardsmen fighting out of an atmosphere (ie in the vacuum of space) at all.

It is possible for them to fight in an atmosphere which is unbreathable to humans by using breathing equipment. It's no different to the marines in Avatar, or scuba divers. If the atmosphere also had high or low pressure or temperature then they would need more equipment to prevent problems but assuming an atmosphere of earth-like temperature and pressure it is entirely possible to walk around with just an oxygen supply.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
I have that book as well, so don’t try and lie again to get yourself out of this.

Sun, do not rise in the east and set in the west!

I don’t get the connection here.

 Redcruisair wrote:
I respect Lyanta as I would any other human being, but I’m not in any way obliged to adopt her interpretation GW’s products.

His. Anyhow, Ash is completely misrepresenting what he said.

 Redcruisair wrote:
I don’t get the connection here.

What you were asking of Ash was about as likely to happen as the sun not rising in the east and setting in the west.

Source.

Counterpoint: Read Eye of Terror Campagin booklet. Or play Dawn of War

It happens due to people forgetting about it. Tears in holes of ships look great on artwork, but that would techincally kill everyone on board.

You are only arguing over small details now and only trying to seem like the intelligent party here.

WHich you are quite famous for here for.

NO Ash. This is what I said. Please stop lying.

Shesh I am not lying I just misremembered.

His. Anyhow, Ash is completely misrepresenting what he said.

Not really I agree with the point that there is a common ground. We should use the common ground, but we should always use it with a grain of salt. The other sources outside of it are interpretations you just misunderstood what Lyanta said.

It is possible for them to fight in an atmosphere which is unbreathable to humans by using breathing equipment. It's no different to the marines in Avatar, or scuba divers. If the atmosphere also had high or low pressure or temperature then they would need more equipment to prevent problems but assuming an atmosphere of earth-like temperature and pressure it is entirely possible to walk around with just an oxygen supply.

They need suits to help protect the whole body any human having any hand or skin exposed in space will instantly be.... well. I have no idea because I don't think there are any cases of humans dying in space in real life.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Counterpoint: Read Eye of Terror Campagin booklet. Or play Dawn of War

I do not remember anything like it in them. Dawn of war happens on some goddamn planet, not in space.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Tears in holes of ships look great on artwork, but that would techincally kill everyone on board.

Unless they master the strange, arcane technology known as walls, and sealing doors.

 Asherian Command wrote:
You are only arguing over small details now and only trying to seem like the intelligent party here.

WHich you are quite famous for here for.

Everyone is having a problem with your behavior on this thread, Ash. Nobody is having any with mine. You got your own thread in Off Topic closed by a mod that told you how your behavior was making good discussions impossible.

 Asherian Command wrote:
The other sources outside of it are interpretations you just misunderstood what Lyanta said.

Let us ask him.

Let us ask him.

Thats what it says Hybrid. This isn't the first time there has been an argument over Starcraft Marines vs Space Marines.

This isn't the first time this thread has come up. You have only brought up the same points that others have already brought up. Time and time again this has been asked.

And everytime the answer is overwhelmingly Space Marines win everytime.

Against other races such as the protoss maybe. But we have no idea how to compare the two as we don't have any numbers or anything like that to compare and contrast the two. Unlike Starwars and Star Trek which do.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240/497426.page#5149236
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/405040.page#3466909
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270/388574.page#3287670
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/329976.page#2154638
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/324945.page#2146020
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294632.page#1574266
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/315415.page#1920793
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/299523.page#1662012
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/810/263450.page#1586359
http://www.warcamel.com/forums/40k-general/warhammer-vs-starcraft-whos-better-space-marine
http://www.gamespot.com/forums/offtopic-discussion-314159273/deadliest-warrior-terran-marines-vs-space-marines-26905021/
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/starcraft-marine-vs-40k-space-marine.170093/
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/space-marine-warhammer-40000-runs-the-halostarcraf-623215/
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=438922
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/921969-Space-Marines-vs-Anything-and-everything-from-Starcraft


And thats only the first results.

May I continue while you helpless try to prove me wrong over and over on STarcraft vs Space Marines?

Face it you lost this debate.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Tears in holes of ships look great on artwork, but that would techincally kill everyone on board.

Unless they master the strange, arcane technology known as walls, and sealing doors.

Indeed, in one of the Ciaphas Cain books there is a hull breach on one of the troopships. They just close pressure doors leading to intact areas of the ship, just like you would do in a modern seafaring warship (and with less complications, you don't have to worry about your spaceship sinking if too much of it fills with water). Anybody on the wrong side of the pressure door who doesn't get to an escape pod dies.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Tears in holes of ships look great on artwork, but that would techincally kill everyone on board.

Unless they master the strange, arcane technology known as walls, and sealing doors.

Indeed, in one of the Ciaphas Cain books there is a hull breach on one of the troopships. They just close pressure doors leading to intact areas of the ship, just like you would do in a modern seafaring warship (and with less complications, you don't have to worry about your spaceship sinking if too much of it fills with water). Anybody on the wrong side of the pressure door who doesn't get to an escape pod dies.

While true there have also been cases where the imperium has pulled off insanely physically impossible stunts.

The rules of 40k's universe are unknown to us for all we know their version of plasma is either stupid or impossible.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Thats what it says Hybrid. This isn't the first time there has been an argument over Starcraft Marines vs Space Marines.

Let us ask Lynata if you misrepresented what he said when you summarized it as “Only GW studio fluff is cannon, the rest is not cannon”.

 Asherian Command wrote:
May I continue while you helpless try to prove me wrong over and over on STarcraft vs Space Marines?

Face it you lost this debate.

See? That is part of your attitude problem.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Tears in holes of ships look great on artwork, but that would techincally kill everyone on board.

Unless they master the strange, arcane technology known as walls, and sealing doors.

Indeed, in one of the Ciaphas Cain books there is a hull breach on one of the troopships. They just close pressure doors leading to intact areas of the ship, just like you would do in a modern seafaring warship (and with less complications, you don't have to worry about your spaceship sinking if too much of it fills with water). Anybody on the wrong side of the pressure door who doesn't get to an escape pod dies.

While true there have also been cases where the imperium has pulled off insanely physically impossible stunts.

The rules of 40k's universe are unknown to us for all we know their version of plasma is either stupid or impossible.

But how many of them are guardsmen surviving exposure to the vacuum of space, which is what you originally claimed?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Tears in holes of ships look great on artwork, but that would techincally kill everyone on board.

Unless they master the strange, arcane technology known as walls, and sealing doors.

Indeed, in one of the Ciaphas Cain books there is a hull breach on one of the troopships. They just close pressure doors leading to intact areas of the ship, just like you would do in a modern seafaring warship (and with less complications, you don't have to worry about your spaceship sinking if too much of it fills with water). Anybody on the wrong side of the pressure door who doesn't get to an escape pod dies.

While true there have also been cases where the imperium has pulled off insanely physically impossible stunts.

The rules of 40k's universe are unknown to us for all we know their version of plasma is either stupid or impossible.

But how many of them are guardsmen surviving exposure to the vacuum of space, which is what you originally claimed?

I was quite wrong in that regard. I forgot that was in Old Mans War. :/ Which does. My bad.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I was quite wrong in that regard. I forgot that was in Old Mans War. :/ Which does. My bad.

See? That is winning an argument. Just saying “I win this debate” is not.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I was quite wrong in that regard. I forgot that was in Old Mans War. :/ Which does. My bad.

See? That is winning an argument. Just saying “I win this debate” is not.

Stop gloating, gloating leads to quite a bad complexion of ideas.

Ash, do you also admit to be wrong about space marines being immune to the radiation of Calth?

You seem to be in an honest mood right now so… perhaps we can finally have you concede that point.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Ash, do you also admit to be wrong about space marines being immune to the radiation of Calth?

You seem to be in an honest mood right now so… perhaps we can finally have you concede that point.

I did already. There are many sources that say Calth's surface is unlivable but the space marines armor in later marks can deal with it. Different marks have different versions of protection against different threats, the mark 3 and mark 1 being notorious for being inadequate protection in space.. It really matters on which legion it is. The Deathguard more than likely being more immune.

It would be quite stupid that Calth is still unable to be fought on the surface. Even though Telion and his Scouts apparently did fight on its surface when fighting old one eye. Which either means they fought underground, or..... They were fighting in the trench network. AS it states specifically a cavern.

But who knows 40k lore has been known to contradict itself

Well, that was short-lived.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Ash, do you also admit to be wrong about space marines being immune to the radiation of Calth?

You seem to be in an honest mood right now so… perhaps we can finally have you concede that point.

I did already. There are many sources that say Calth's surface is unlivable but the space marines armor in later marks can deal with it. Different marks have different versions of protection against different threats, the mark 3 and mark 1 being notorious for being inadequate protection in space.. It really matters on which legion it is. The Deathguard more than likely being more immune.

Do have source for this? I’m not questioning you here. I’m merely interested in reading that peace of info myself.




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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, that was short-lived.

Do you mean Ash’s honesty? Yeah I didn’t expect him to do a 360 and stay that way but… We’ll take what we can get I guess.

 Psienesis wrote:
But only one heart and the first set of lungs. Also, not fearless.

Are you kidding me? Spartan 2s and 3s both had enough badass training and fearlessness beaten into them that they could have taken on am entire Chapter by themselves without breaking. They would still [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express that sentiment - thanks! Alpharius], but that's beside the point.

I hope you guys realize that veteran Spartan 2s would probably win in a battle with an equal number of Space Marines. While said Spartan 2s have inferior equipment in almost every way they have two advantages:
1.) They are literally the most intelligent people in the ENTIRE UNSC and are the finest military minds the UNSC has to offer, while Astartes are generally pretty simple-minded.
2.) The Power Armor that the Spartan 2s employ boost their strength more than the Astartes' (this is evidenced by the fact that only Spartans can use Mjolnir armor without being crushed while ordinary humans can use MK whatever Power Armour). And, MJOLNIR armor is composed of titanium; the hardest metal on Earth, or at least one of them. It is also equipped with energy shields, THAT QUICKLY RECHARGE WHEN DEPLETED.
3.) Spartans study Martial Arts (from Kung Fu to Krav Maga) their entire lives, and thus would have a serious countermeasure to their lack of CC weapons. On top of that, Their would be around two squads of Astartes in said Company that would just got shot out of the air when they jumped.
Another advantage that Spartans have over Astartes is that many of them use Covenant weaponry, which is far more advanced than Imperial weaponry.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Ash, do you also admit to be wrong about space marines being immune to the radiation of Calth?

You seem to be in an honest mood right now so… perhaps we can finally have you concede that point.

I did already. There are many sources that say Calth's surface is unlivable but the space marines armor in later marks can deal with it. Different marks have different versions of protection against different threats, the mark 3 and mark 1 being notorious for being inadequate protection in space.. It really matters on which legion it is. The Deathguard more than likely being more immune.

Do have source for this? I’m not questioning you here. I’m merely interested in reading that peace of info myself.

Power Armor:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour

Mark 1

Mark I plate was developed by the techno-barbarian factions that dominated Terra prior to the Emperor's ascendancy. When the Emperor began his conquest of Earth, the "Thunder Warriors", the proto-Space Marines which formed part of his retinue, were armoured in the same way as the soldiers of the other warlords. A thunderbolt and lightning symbol was displayed on the breastplate of warriors loyal to the Emperor - this was the personal badge of the Emperor in those days, predating the Imperial Aquila which only became the symbol of the Imperium much later. The emblem gives the suit its common name – "Thunder Armour."[1]
Thunder Armour was not an enclosing suit and offered no life support functions, being unnecessary while the fighting was confined to Terra and the similar environments of Luna and Mars. This early armour was produced on a completely local basis and as such individual suits varied heavily and their exact designs were often a matter of personal taste.[1]
The main part of the armour is the massive powered torso which encloses the chest and arms. Coiled energy cables beneath the armour plating transmit power from the power pack on the back to the arms, greatly increasing physical strength by a factor of between 3 and 4 times. Since fighting on Terra during this period was primarily close-quarters, the strength of a warrior's chest and arms was of paramount importance. The legs of this armour Mark are typically not power-armoured at all, but are enclosed in tough padded breeches. The best-equipped warriors sometimes wore armoured greaves and armoured boots, and such additional protection was common amongst the Thunder Warriors.[1]
As with all powered armour, the power supply is contained with a notably bulky back-mounted unit, most of which is taken up by cooling systems designed to prevent the entire armour design from overheating.[1]
Although it is very rarely used in the 41st Millennium, some suits of Thunder Armour are maintained for ceremonial purposes.[1]
This ancient style of armour is noticeably noisier than later Marks. [8]

Mark 2:

After the conquest of the main planets of the Sol system, the factories on Mars were set to work constructing a new type of armour for the Emperor's elite Space Marines. This armoured suit is commonly referred to as "Crusade Armour," since it was designed with the planned Great Crusade in mind, and its production led to the Thunder Armour being retroactively designated as the Mark I. It was the first fully enclosed power armour, with life-sustaining capabilities[1], making it suitable for combat on toxic alien planets and the depths of space.[8]
Crusade Armour is fully plated, and the legs are also power armoured. The plates are arranged into articulated hoops, for increased maneuverability. The chest coils, which were kept on the outside of the armour plating on Mark 1 armour for cooling purposes, have now been placed on the inside of the chest plates, so that they are better protected, thanks to more efficient cooling mechanisms. However, this design could not be copied over to the new powered leg armour, which resulted in exposed cabling on the backs of the lower legs. The backpack is roughly the same size as that on the Mark I armour, but is much more efficient, and also includes extra life support, air recycling and fluid recovery equipment, as well as automated medical devices that have remained a part of Space Marine armour ever since.[1]
The helmet is fitted with automatic sensory devices developed on Mars, which allow the wearer to see and hear as though not wearing a helmet,[1] and, since all information is transmitted to a computer in the helmet before being transmitted directly to the wearer's brain via neural link, it enhances sight and hearing while dampening blinding lights and deafening noises.[8] The wearer is also able to see in the infra-red and ultra-violet spectrums, images can be zoomed in and magnified while noises can be enhanced.[1] The helmet was fixed in a single position, but allowed the occupant to turn his head inside.[8]
Mark II armour is believed by many to still be the most efficient example of power armour design, although with the caveat that the overlapping hooped armour plates are difficult to repair. It can still be found in operational use - in extremely limited numbers - amongst several Space Marine Chapters.[1]

This model dates from the wars of the Great Crusade, waged close to the galactic core. Many of these worlds were the Squat Homeworlds, which were not pleased to find themselves the object of galactic conquest. The Squats' independent and stubborn nature, along with the conditions of the fighting, spurred the creation of this new armour type.[*] This armour was ideal when cover was minimal and combat was a matter of frontal assault.[1] The most visually brutal and imposing of all the widely produced armour marks, the Iron Armour was a heavy, modified Mark II design (itself the first mass-produced Power Armour of the Crusade era). The Iron Armour's structure has augmented frontal defence and incorporates additional ablative plates, and is intended foremost for use in boarding actions, tunnel assaults and void warfare, although it is considerably heavier and more power hungry than its contemporaries.[9] The new helmet design is a heavily armoured model with sloping plates designed to deflect shots to the left and right, and inspired the Mark IV and VI helmet designs.[1]
Mark III was never intended to replace the previous Mark but to act as an optional suit specialised for situations where heavier frontal protection would be advantageous, such as in the close confines of spacecraft and mining complexes.[8] Because of this, no Legion was ever fully equipped with the Mark III. While successful in the conditions it was designed for, the armour is too clumsy and uncomfortable for conventional fighting. It is sometimes worn by ceremonial guards due to its visual brutality, and can also still be found used in close-quarters situations by various Space Marine Chapters.[1]
It is commonly called the Iron Suit or Armorum Ferrum in recognition of its great strength.[1]

The older marks are techincally not as advanced. The Corvus being the more technological advanced by the point of the hersey, but very few marines during the crusade had access to them.


Death Guard bit:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Guard

Because of Barbarus's toxic environment, the Death Guard took great pride in their resistance to poisons, disease, and mortality in general. This fascination led them to worship the Chaos God Nurgle and in return he infests their armour with pestilence and disease, and elevated Mortarion to a Daemon Prince.

That is probably common knowledge even in the books Death Guard are highly resistant to radiation and poisoning.

I hope you guys realize that veteran Spartan 2s would probably win in a battle with an equal number of Space Marines. While said Spartan 2s have inferior equipment in almost every way they have two advantages:
1.) They are literally the most intelligent people in the ENTIRE UNSC and are the finest military minds the UNSC has to offer, while Astartes are generally pretty simple-minded.
2.) The Power Armor that the Spartan 2s employ boost their strength more than the Astartes' (this is evidenced by the fact that only Spartans can use Mjolnir armor without being crushed while ordinary humans can use MK whatever Power Armour). And, MJOLNIR armor is composed of titanium; the hardest metal on Earth, or at least one of them. It is also equipped with energy shields, THAT QUICKLY RECHARGE WHEN DEPLETED.
3.) Spartans study Martial Arts (from Kung Fu to Krav Maga) their entire lives, and thus would have a serious countermeasure to their lack of CC weapons. On top of that, Their would be around two squads of Astartes in said Company that would just got shot out of the air when they jumped.
Another advantage that Spartans have over Astartes is that many of them use Covenant weaponry, which is far more advanced than Imperial weaponry.

1. Space Marines have different IQ levels that far exceed a human as Detailed in WHite Dwarf 300. Some Have IQ's reaching from 200-400. They are geniuses due to the fact that space marines undergo operation processes that also increase their brain capacity and overall they are basically a different being entirely from a human.
2. Space Marines armor increases their strength considerably. A single marine have been known to break solid masonry with their bare hands. Even without their armor they are considerably strong being able to rip off their opponents heads. (Which takes alot of strength to do)
3. That don't mean crap in melee. Space marines train for decades. In the lore space marines are extremely agile. Able to climb up buildings rather quickly. It is kind of insane. Space Marines are warriors without peer. Space Marines also have better technology, better training, and better weaponry to counter the spartans so called martial skill. WHich means little if your opponent is carrying around a chainsaw as a side arm.

Convenant weaponry advanced XD

Yes because those plasma rifles are so effective against spartans. Those rifles do nothing against tanks. In 40k Space Marines have melta weaponry that melts their targets into literal dust.

Space marines also have bolt pistols, power weapons, assualt troopers. And are far superior.

Their defenses are meant to allow them to dish out as much punishment as possible. A spartan can possibly take down one space marine if that marine is not wearing a helmet. Which is rare. In all of the lore most space marines wear their helmets.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Do you mean Ash’s honesty?

Him not being obnoxious in general.

Thank you for the quotes Ash.

I’ve read all of it and can confirm nothing of it tells us anything about how good the different armors are in terms of protection against radiation. Yes, I’m aware how Mark 2 talks about protection against toxicity, but it doesn’t clarify how well it deals with radiation.

StarCraft is bit clearer with their fluff, describing the old model of CMC armor as having basic NBC (nuclear/biological/chemical) shielding.




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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Do you mean Ash’s honesty?

Him not being obnoxious in general.

That’s harsh. No reason to have this thread locked over something so silly like this pls.

Thank you for the quotes Ash.

I’ve read all of it and can confirm nothing of it tells us anything about how good the different armors are in terms of protection against radiation. Yes, I’m aware how Mark 2 talks about protection against toxicity, but it doesn’t clarify how well it deals with radiation.

StarCraft is bit clearer with their fluff, describing the old model of CMC armor as having basic NBC (nuclear/biological/chemical) shielding.

Which is what I have said before.

The starcraft lore is more clear, but we don't know if that makes it superior for all we know the writers might of had it in but just forgot to put it down. Or hell they assumed thats on there.

I highly doubt an advanced civilization which has already mastered nukes and thinks they are incredibly low powered compared to cyclone missiles hasn't put radiation protection on space marine armor considering they fight in space quite often. And hell they are called Space Marines.

Seeing as fighting in space is equalivent to being exposed to UV Radiation like none other. So the battle of calth would be like fighting on a moon with no atmosphere or on a space ship in the middle of nowhere. unless the Wordbearers dropped chemical warheads into Calth's Sun. Which I can't quite remember if they did. Its been a while since I read the battle of Calth from the collected visions.

Which has happened in the lore.

Asherian Command and science…

 Asherian Command wrote:
UV Radiation like none other.

Stars spit out a loss worse than UV. Try X-Rays and Gamma Rays.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I highly doubt an advanced civilization which has already mastered nukes and thinks they are incredibly low powered compared to cyclone missiles hasn't put radiation protection on space marine armor considering they fight in space quite often. And hell they are called Space Marines.

The problem here isn’t that they lack protection against radiation. They do. It’s just that the power armor’s radiation shielding and its air filtering don’t last long when being exposed to strong radiation for a certain amount of time. Power armor weren’t designed to last against prolonged exposure to radiation.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Asherian Command and science…

What the fact that I literally said being in space will likely give you radiation posioning? Hmm where did I read that before.

Oh yeah earth science.

http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/humanresearch/elements/research_info_element-srpe.html

The Atmosphere protects us against the more harmful effects of radiation and the countless other types of radiations in space.

Please enlighten me how that is scientifically proven to be incorrect by you oh great scientist?

Stop acting like you know everything Hybrid your not helping this threads longevity.

Stars spit out a loss worse than UV. Try X-Ray and Gamma Rays.

True. I just had forgotten about those two! But if you are out on the surface even with equipment on without oxygen or atmosphere you are basically going to bake because of the all the radiation exposure you are probably going to receive.

The problem here isn’t that they lack protection against radiation. They do. It’s just that the power armor’s radiation shielding and its air filtering don’t last long when being exposed to strong radiation for a certain amount of time. Power armor weren’t designed to last against prolonged exposure to radiation.

True but I don't think Starcraft marines can be out in prolonged times as well. Seeing as a single rupture leads them dead. Those suits can't be out there forever. Hence why they have barracks and areas to ensure they don't run out of oxygen etc.

Seeing as they are still human and probably if they were on calth would die quicker than an Astartes would.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Asherian Command and science…

What the fact that I literally said being in space will likely give you radiation posioning? Hmm where did I read that before.

Oh yeah earth science.

http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/humanresearch/elements/research_info_element-srpe.html

The Atmosphere protects us against the more harmful effects of radiation and the countless other types of radiations in space.

Please enlighten me how that is scientifically proven to be incorrect by you oh great scientist?

Interesting fact, smokers lungs are exposed to more ionising radiation every year than an astronaut who spends 6 months on the international space station is.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Seeing as a single rupture leads them dead.

That goes for any kind of shielding Ash… Whether it’s a protective suit or a sealed bunker, one leak and the shielding is gone.

Space Marines with IQ's of 200-400? That's bs on a stick and you know it. IQs of that magnitude would completely cripple a Space Marine's utter devotion and blind faith in the Emperor and the IoM. And, with IQ's that high, it would be almost impossible for Space Marines to lose a battle, because they would always be ten steps ahead, and would almost never make an imperfect decision or calculation.

And what you have to take into account is the fact that Covenant weaponry had to be toned down in order to make a good game. In the Halo games, you can shoot a marine in the face ten times with a plasma pistol and he won't die. In the books, shoot him once in the face and he dies. You can't use game mechanics for this, you have to use the books for reference.

 Asherian Command wrote:
What the fact that I literally said being in space will likely give you radiation posioning?

The fact you brought up UV radiation when talking about if marines would be protected from nuclear radiations.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Please enlighten me how that is scientifically proven to be incorrect by you oh great scientist?

Let me ask you: do you believe that wearing one of the suits that the astronauts wear when they go out in space will protect you from the radiations in Fukushima? Do you?

 Asherian Command wrote:
True. I just had forgotten about those two! But if you are out on the surface even with equipment on without oxygen or atmosphere you are basically going to bake because of the all the radiation exposure you are probably going to receive.

Depends completely on how much radiation you are going to receive. Which depends on how far you are from the source, and how much the source emits. Both of which you have no idea about.
Obviously people can spend time on the moon and in space, without any atmosphere protecting them, and be protected by their equipment. It does not take a PhD to notice that.

 Asherian Command wrote:
True but I don't think Starcraft marines can be out in prolonged times as well. Seeing as a single rupture leads them dead. Those suits can't be out there forever. Hence why they have barracks and areas to ensure they don't run out of oxygen etc.

Ah ah ah. More baseless affirmations!

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Seeing as a single rupture leads them dead.

That goes for any kind of shielding Ash… Whether it’s a protective suit or a sealed bunker, one leak and the shielding is gone.

True. I wonder if a marine's leg is exposed is their an innerworking that basically seals off that leg to the elements?

Space Marines with IQ's of 200-400? That's bs on a stick and you know it

Read white dwarf 300 thats what it says.

40k has very little reason.

The fact you brought up UV radiation when talking about if marines would be protected from nuclear radiations.

Ypu sure.

Ah ah ah. More baseless affirmations!

Look a kettle!

Depends completely on how much radiation you are going to receive. Which depends on how far you are from the source, and how much the source emits. Both of which you have no idea about.
Obviously people can spend time on the moon and in space, without any atmosphere protecting them, and be protected by their equipment. It does not take a PhD to notice that.

Which also depends on the materials used to protect the people inside the suit. Calling me stupid won't get you anywhere in this debate.

As if this is debate now.

As you have only gone the offensive whenever I post something.

And what you have to take into account is the fact that Covenant weaponry had to be toned down in order to make a good game. In the Halo games, you can shoot a marine in the face ten times with a plasma pistol and he won't die. In the books, shoot him once in the face and he dies. You can't use game mechanics for this, you have to use the books for reference.

Yes because Spartans have ready access to Convenant weaponry against Space Marine.

Hey guys, I know I'm not a mod or nothing, but if you really want this discussion to continue, you might want to refrain from personal attacks. Don't forget Dakka Rule #1.

I'm shocked it's made it this far.

I wonder if OP ever expected his thread to get as big (and passionate) as it did.

Say, where is the lad anyway? I haven’t seen a single post from him since page 3 or so.

By the end of Halo 3, the new Sangheili-led Covenant was sharing technology with the UNSC. Of course now, 343 is currently raping the lore of Halo, so I'm not sure if that's still canon.


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Also, I think that the Guass Rifles the UNSC currently uses as sniper rifles will be more than capable of killing a space Marine at 1k+ meters

Oh wait, we are considering Black Library canon for this? Noice.

That, unfortunately, means the SM win this with ease.

The Spartans are very good and the Starcraft Marines have their advantages as well, but then the Marines start running.

Starcraft Marines are human. Marines explicitly move faster than human eyes can follow. And for your information, what your eyes can't follow, your guns certainly can't either. FTR, the speed at which something must move before the eye literally can't follow it is something akin to 504,000 mph. Good luck hitting that target, lol.

Spartans are also faster than normal humans (IIRC?) which would give them a fighting chance in theory, but they would still simply be outmatched. 'Faster than a human' says little when your target moves at Mach 80. Even if we for some obscure reason assume the Starcraft Marine armour is tougher even than PA, they would suffer death by a thousand cuts before they could strike as much as a single blow back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For a list of interesting things to consider before you say the Space Marines are beaten, take a look at http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/40k-source-and-feats-thread.235176/#post-8614291

 Ashiraya wrote:
'Faster than a human' says little when your target moves at Mach 80.

Fortunately for the non-GW marines we can just dismiss this as "the author is an idiot" because mach 80 space marines don't appear anywhere else and IIRC the description of the supposed mach 80 space marine isn't even consistent with that kind of speed.

We already went over that part.

The popular thought here is that, Stimpacks put marines and marauders on (at least) equal footing with Eldar in terms of speed and reflexes.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
'Faster than a human' says little when your target moves at Mach 80.

Fortunately for the non-GW marines we can just dismiss this as "the author is an idiot" because mach 80 space marines don't appear anywhere else and IIRC the description of the supposed mach 80 space marine isn't even consistent with that kind of speed.

Is it utterly stupid and something I am pulling up just to highlight the absurdity of the comparison? Certainly. But it's canon.

Just of the top of my head, page 264 of The First Heretic and page 93 of Void Stalker.

Or shall we pull up the Custodes who move at FTL speeds?

Damn you ADB! A thoushand curses upon thee, you dirty rotten scoundrel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all honesty though, the guy is all over the place with his writing. This is the same author that has a Nightlord captain surfing fighter jets doing a ship to ship battle in space.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Is it utterly stupid and something I am pulling up just to highlight the absurdity of the comparison? Certainly. But it's canon.

But there is no cannon in 40k .
More seriously, please do not pull out an Asherian and take that quote in the most literal stupid sense, just like his “plasma is a star” quote. Do you know what moves too fast for the human eye to follow? The cups in the hand of a good street gambler. Or really, many many close-up magician's trick. That is the kind of “too fast to follow” we are talking about, not the “mach speed” fast to follow.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
'Faster than a human' says little when your target moves at Mach 80.

Fortunately for the non-GW marines we can just dismiss this as "the author is an idiot" because mach 80 space marines don't appear anywhere else and IIRC the description of the supposed mach 80 space marine isn't even consistent with that kind of speed.

Yeah, no sonic boom, no marine disintegrating from the forces exerted on the armour and body etc.

I mean lets assume that they're accelerating to their top speed in around the same time as Usain Bolt (after all, there's no point in moving faster than the eye can see if it takes you an hour to get to that speed). Bolt manages to get an acceleration out of the starting blocks of around 9.5m/s^2, allowing him to reach his top speed of 12.2m/s in around 1.28 seconds.

For a Space Marine to accelerate to 504,000mph (which is 225,300 m/s) in that amount of time they'd need to have an acceleration of 176,015m/s^2. Which is 17,942 times larger than acceleration due to Earth's gravity.

To put that into perspective, for a planet to have that kind of gravitational pull it would have to have the mass of ~18,000 Earths.

Now I have my doubts as to something needing to move that fast to be too fast for the human eye (it'll depend on the size of the object, for starters) so I'm gonna pick a much lower speed to see how that compares.

If we say 300mph, then we get an acceleration of 104m/s^2. This is 10 times faster than acceleration due to gravity on earth, so it's the equivalent of acceleration due to gravity on a planet 10 times the mass of earth.

That's still ridiculous, though.

Last time I checked, Astartes move 6", just like guardsmen.

Martel732 wrote:
Last time I checked, Astartes move 6", just like guardsmen.

Ah, but they move 6" much faster

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Is it utterly stupid and something I am pulling up just to highlight the absurdity of the comparison? Certainly. But it's canon.

But there is no cannon in 40k .
More seriously, please do not pull out an Asherian and take that quote in the most literal stupid sense, just like his “plasma is a star” quote. Do you know what moves too fast for the human eye to follow? The cups in the hand of a good street gambler. Or really, many many close-up magician's trick. That is the kind of “too fast to follow” we are talking about, not the “mach speed” fast to follow.

I didn't say plasma is a star. I said it explodes into a miniaturized star. Your the one taking me out of context here mate.

That is taking my words butchering it into a jumbled mess.

Watch this:

Please do not pull out. Literal Asherian take that stupid. That is the kind of fast to follow.

See that is what I could do. But I have respect for everyone here. It may not come off that way. If I had no respect for you. I wouldn't be responding to you and the block button would be abused to no end.

Also there is no canon. Not cannon. Canon and Cannon are two different things. I think there are plenty of cannons in 40k.

Yeah, no sonic boom, no marine disintegrating from the forces exerted on the armour and body etc.

I mean lets assume that they're accelerating to their top speed in around the same time as Usain Bolt. Bolt manages to get an acceleration out of the starting blocks of around 9.5m/s^2, allowing him to reach his top speed of 12.2m/s in around 1.28 seconds.

For a Space Marine to accelerate to 504,000mph (which is 225,300 m/s) in that amount of time they'd need to have an acceleration of 176,015m/s^2. Which is 17,942 times larger than acceleration due to Earth's gravity.

To put that into perspective, for a planet to have that kind of gravitational pull it would have to have the mass of 17,916 Earths.

O.o

I think I have said that terran marines cannot compare to a superhuman.

How many times have I said that? I've lost count.

Martel732 wrote:
Last time I checked, Astartes move 6", just like guardsmen.

You are comparing it to the board rules. And we are not using the board or tabletop rules for obvious reasons.

In order to ensure that everything is balanced if they increeased the board movement for astartes the whole game would be completely unfair.

Superhumans whose armor fails utterly 33% of the time. Autoguns, spears, punches from grots, stiff breezes can all kill a marine right through power armor. The same superhumans that take a wound from a human punch 33% of the time instead of 50% like a normal human. Some superhumans, there, let me tell you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Is it utterly stupid and something I am pulling up just to highlight the absurdity of the comparison? Certainly. But it's canon.

But there is no cannon in 40k .
More seriously, please do not pull out an Asherian and take that quote in the most literal stupid sense, just like his “plasma is a star” quote. Do you know what moves too fast for the human eye to follow? The cups in the hand of a good street gambler. Or really, many many close-up magician's trick. That is the kind of “too fast to follow” we are talking about, not the “mach speed” fast to follow.

Except magicians are not too fast to follow by any stretch. If they were they wouldn't need to use all the misdirection to make sure you're not watching where the trick happens.

So unless Space Marines have Sisters of Battle in sparkly, revealing outfits to distract you whilst they "move faster than the eye can follow" then it's not really a very good comparison

Martel732 wrote:
Superhumans whose armor fails utterly 33% of the time. Autoguns, spears, punches from grots, stiff breezes can all kill a marine right through power armor.

Eldar 44% of the time
Guardsmen 89%
Orks 55%
Necrons 33%

You keep making these things and then I just point you to the other races who have worse survival rates overall.

Space marines have a great survival rate. Stop putting them down as much as you are -.-

33% mortality rate is not that bad compared 89%

"Space marines have a great survival rate. Stop putting them down as much as you are -.-"

You are truly deluded. I have massacred and in turn massacre marines by the droves. There's nothing worse than losing 20+ a turn to weapons that aren't even AP 3, but that's how it currently works.

The marines are a joke in practice and I prove it every time I go up against them.

Martel732 wrote:
"Space marines have a great survival rate. Stop putting them down as much as you are -.-"

You are truly deluded. I have massacred and in turn massacre marines by the droves. There's nothing worse than losing 20+ a turn to weapons that aren't even AP 3, but that's how it currently works.

The marines are a joke in practice and I prove it every time I go up against them.

I don't care what you do on the tabletop. This is about the lore. If you don't like space marines guess what you do.

You ignore threads like these.

Best way to do it is to avoid it! Instead of being mean and rude to people who do like space marines.

Meanwhile...... Eldar for life!

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Superhumans whose armor fails utterly 33% of the time. Autoguns, spears, punches from grots, stiff breezes can all kill a marine right through power armor.

Eldar 44% of the time
Guardsmen 89%
Orks 55%
Necrons 33%

You keep making these things and then I just point you to the other races who have worse survival rates overall.

Space marines have a great survival rate. Stop putting them down as much as you are -.-

33% mortality rate is not that bad compared 89%

Except none of those races are superhumans who can apparently win wars with only 1000 men.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Superhumans whose armor fails utterly 33% of the time. Autoguns, spears, punches from grots, stiff breezes can all kill a marine right through power armor.

Eldar 44% of the time
Guardsmen 89%
Orks 55%
Necrons 33%

You keep making these things and then I just point you to the other races who have worse survival rates overall.

Space marines have a great survival rate. Stop putting them down as much as you are -.-

33% mortality rate is not that bad compared 89%

Except none of those races are superhumans who can apparently win wars with only 1000 men.

Thats for balance reasons. If they made them any more powerful they would slap the hell out of every race.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Space marines have a great survival rate. Stop putting them down as much as you are -.-"

You are truly deluded. I have massacred and in turn massacre marines by the droves. There's nothing worse than losing 20+ a turn to weapons that aren't even AP 3, but that's how it currently works.

The marines are a joke in practice and I prove it every time I go up against them.

I don't care what you do on the tabletop. This is about the lore. If you don't like space marines guess what you do.

You ignore threads like these.

Best way to do it is to avoid it! Instead of being mean and rude to people who do like space marines.

Meanwhile...... Eldar for life!

Oh, but you see, I'm so very sick of marines not living up the lore in any semblance, shape, form or fashion. So I am utterly perplexed by anyone who puts any stock into GW's crappy fiction, that isn't even represented in their own game.

Martel732 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Space marines have a great survival rate. Stop putting them down as much as you are -.-"

You are truly deluded. I have massacred and in turn massacre marines by the droves. There's nothing worse than losing 20+ a turn to weapons that aren't even AP 3, but that's how it currently works.

The marines are a joke in practice and I prove it every time I go up against them.

I don't care what you do on the tabletop. This is about the lore. If you don't like space marines guess what you do.

You ignore threads like these.

Best way to do it is to avoid it! Instead of being mean and rude to people who do like space marines.

Meanwhile...... Eldar for life!

Oh, but you see, I'm so very sick of marines not living up the lore in any semblance, shape, form or fashion. So I am utterly perplexed by anyone who puts any stock into GW's crappy fiction, that isn't even represented in their own game.

Actually, I agree that it's not represented, but I instead veer in the direction of not putting any stock in the game and calling it crappy instead.

I've read their fiction. At least some of it. It's just as awful and nonsensical as the writing in their codices.

As opposed to the game rules?

 Ashiraya wrote:
As opposed to the game rules?

Those are pretty bad as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Space marines have a great survival rate. Stop putting them down as much as you are -.-"

You are truly deluded. I have massacred and in turn massacre marines by the droves. There's nothing worse than losing 20+ a turn to weapons that aren't even AP 3, but that's how it currently works.

The marines are a joke in practice and I prove it every time I go up against them.

I don't care what you do on the tabletop. This is about the lore. If you don't like space marines guess what you do.

You ignore threads like these.

Best way to do it is to avoid it! Instead of being mean and rude to people who do like space marines.

Meanwhile...... Eldar for life!

Oh, but you see, I'm so very sick of marines not living up the lore in any semblance, shape, form or fashion. So I am utterly perplexed by anyone who puts any stock into GW's crappy fiction, that isn't even represented in their own game.

I could say the same about alot of games and races in general.

For the purposes of balance.

The lore does that. Infact I found the tabletop not as interesting as the lore. And I don't think it is crappy. I've read some really bad literature, GW is in no way crappy.

In terms of lore it is another reason why people often like me complain about how the spartans in halo reach were killed so easily. IE Kat getting shot in the head even though she had a helmet on.

Even though you had been shot many times by needle rifles.

One of the other reasons why I gave up on the tabletop is because of how bad the gameplay got and how easy it was to abuse Falcons and wave serprents or flying units in general.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
As opposed to the game rules?

Those are pretty bad as well.

So it's all a wash then.

There's almost always discrepancies between gameplay and fluff in games that are not single player, and many that are single player as well.

Except that the rules are quantifiable and the lore is just what some author decided would be cool that day.

"For the purposes of balance. "

Which doesn't exist in this game.

" GW is in no way crappy. "

I guess have their bar set pretty low.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
As opposed to the game rules?

Those are pretty bad as well.

So it's all a wash then.

There's almost always discrepancies between gameplay and fluff in games that are not single player, and many that are single player as well.

40K's discrepancies are pretty much unforgivable, so I choose to ignore the lore in its entirety. It took them 20 years to put eternal warrior on the Imperium's oldest space marine. That's how much the lore matters. And that is not at all.

Given how consistent the game has largely been, and how radically the fluff has changed and how dramatically the fluff has escalated, I'd say the issue lies far more with the fluff having any and all semblance of scale and proportion as opposed to something being dramatically wrong with the game.

Marine fluff of 1987 was radically different from what it is today, and marine fluff around the most superlative capabilities of a Space Marine in the mid-late 90's (when the current basics of SM's were established and they largely look identical to the way they do now) were nothing compared to what Black Library portrays of them today. The first books about Space Marines did not have them doing the absurd things that BL writes them doing today, and it was very clear that there were scarier, more powerful things than Space Marines, as opposed to most fluff today where it's almost always "marines are the best at everything" and the suspension of disbelief is increasingly difficult to maintain.

Meanwhile, from late RT-7th edition, the Space Marine has remained largely consistent in the actual game.

" the Space Marine has remained largely consistent in the actual game."

That's actually true, but they've been mostly a bad troop for most of the game's history. They were good in 3rd and I hear 4th, and that's about it. See, the lore forgot to mention entire armies of space marines getting shot off the table *before they could even act* by 2nd ed noise marine armies. Yup, that sure sounds superhuman to me.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
As opposed to the game rules?

Those are pretty bad as well.

So it's all a wash then.

There's almost always discrepancies between gameplay and fluff in games that are not single player, and many that are single player as well.

Like Most fantasy Games where this unkillable evil! Is somehow killed by a level 1 item.

Its another reason why I think the first bit of the fantasy game is actually the whole game.



Also Martel732 No the tabletop is not quantifable as it does not actually show the strength there is no comparison to the two. WE are not given actual numbers.

Which doesn't exist in this game.

No duh.

I guess have their bar set pretty low.

You have no idea.

Reading Student works makes me need to.

To be fair, most "basic" troop type units in general weren't worth much in 2nd, it was psykers, killy monsters/HQ's, specialist infantry, and heavy weapons.

That said, I think we both know we disagree on the usefulness and capabilities of Tac's in general

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, most "basic" troop type units in general weren't worth much in 2nd, it was psykers, killy monsters/HQ's, specialist infantry, and heavy weapons.

That said, I think we both know we disagree on the usefulness and capabilities of Tac's in general

I can never keep track of who thinks what. But I personally find marines embarrassing to field.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I didn't say plasma is a star. I said it explodes into a miniaturized star.

Big difference.

 Asherian Command wrote:
If I had no respect for you. I wouldn't be responding to you and the block button would be abused to no end.

There is a block button? I need to use it more.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So unless Space Marines have Sisters of Battle in sparkly, revealing outfits to distract you whilst they "move faster than the eye can follow" then it's not really a very good comparison

Close-up magicians do not have that. That would not work. Because close-up.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Given how consistent the game has largely been, and how radically the fluff has changed and how dramatically the fluff has escalated, I'd say the issue lies far more with the fluff having any and all semblance of scale and proportion as opposed to something being dramatically wrong with the game.

Marine fluff of 1987 was radically different from what it is today, and marine fluff around the most superlative capabilities of a Space Marine in the mid-late 90's (when the current basics of SM's were established and they largely look identical to the way they do now) were nothing compared to what Black Library portrays of them today. The first books about Space Marines did not have them doing the absurd things that BL writes them doing today, and it was very clear that there were scarier, more powerful things than Space Marines, as opposed to most fluff today where it's almost always "marines are the best at everything" and the suspension of disbelief is increasingly difficult to maintain.

Meanwhile, from late RT-7th edition, the Space Marine has remained largely consistent in the actual game.

ITs why I prefer the idea that space marines aren't warrior monks. But just soldiers. The Early Black Liby was quite great. Especially the older horus heresy books and the older grey knight books where they struggled to kill big big things.

But considering how stupid the lore gets. Sometimes. Its just better to ignore the over the top bits.

Sort of like comic books. IE everything with deadpool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, most "basic" troop type units in general weren't worth much in 2nd, it was psykers, killy monsters/HQ's, specialist infantry, and heavy weapons.

That said, I think we both know we disagree on the usefulness and capabilities of Tac's in general

It reminds me of how people used to see Dire Avengers they used to be really bad. Until the newer 4th eldar codex came out, then the 5th ed one made striking scorpions kind of a fun build and then everyone figured out that fire dragons + wraith guard + wraithlordd spam was viable.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So unless Space Marines have Sisters of Battle in sparkly, revealing outfits to distract you whilst they "move faster than the eye can follow" then it's not really a very good comparison

Close-up magicians do not have that. That would not work. Because close-up.

But they do have lots of superfluous hand gestures and speech etc. which accomplish the same thing.

Space marines use purity seals and spehs's mahreens-style speak to achieve “faster than the eye can follow” movement.

Wait if we are using the fluff, then let's see...

Terminators can throw a 1 ton lictor with a single arm and riddle it with bullets.

Veterans use Multilasers.

Jump Packs go boom with enough strength to explode a Wave Serpent.

 Happyjew wrote:
Wait if we are using the fluff, then let's see...

Spoiler:

Grasping one talon in the formidable grip of his power fist, Neleus dragged the lictor creature out of the sand and held it momentarily, dangling from its own fore-talon. Then, with a swift movement, he crushed the talon in his fist and launched the hapless creature in the air with a swing of his immense arm, riddling it with hellfire shells as it flew. By the time it landed back in the sea of its own kind, the creature was little more than a shredded husk.

Terminators can throw a 1 ton lictor with a single arm and riddle it with bullets.

Spoiler:

Balder's fellow veterans were in formation around him, discharging volleys of lasfire from their multilasers, providing support for Hoenir's squad.

Veterans use Multilasers.

Spoiler:

With a blinding blast of red light, the Assault Marine's jump-pack went critical and its fuel cells detonated, firing him down towards the ground like a giant bolter shell. Even from where he was standing, Gabriel could see the Marine was working to release the grenades that were clipped around his belt, flinging them down into the formation of eldar below him even as he rocketed down towards them. The disciplined aliens seemed unphased (sic) for a fraction of a second, holding their firing vectors until they realised what was about to happen. Then, as the xenos creatures began to scatter away from the Wave Serpents, the string of grenades smacked into the ground and detonated all at once, blowing a huge crater into the desert and rocking the nearest Wave Serpent. In an instant, the Marine's jump-pack roared down towards the vehicle, spiralling on its axis now that it had been jettisoned by the Marine himself, until it punched heavily into the gunnery cockpit on top of the Wave Serpent, blowing it clean off the vehicle and engulfing the whole thing in a giant red fireball. The Marine himself ploughed down into the desert nearby.

Jump Packs go boom with enough strength to explode a Wave Serpent.

What This lore is actually kind of awesome.

What books are these from.

From the lore accordingly we also have space marines doing back flips and razorbacks turning into land raiders XD

Got dang CS Goto.

The first two are from Warrior Brood. The third from Dawn of War Ascension.

 Happyjew wrote:
Got dang CS Goto.

The first two are from Warrior Brood. The third from Dawn of War Ascension.

Okay can I just say that is actually kind of awesome.

I usually people give crap to CS GOTO.

But man only a child could of think of that type stuff.

Its times like that when I wish I was still a kid.

Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

Who decides where this line is to be drawn?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

Who decides where this line is to be drawn?

When space marines running mach 40 and being able to throw a carnifex.

So running at Mach 39 and throwing a headless carnifex is fine?

 Ashiraya wrote:
So running at Mach 39 and throwing a headless carnifex is fine?

Yes!

That works. Nothing wrong here.

I would say Mach 7 is the max effective speed of a space marine. 5 if carrying a Carnifex, 4 for Tervigon

 Ashiraya wrote:
Oh wait, we are considering Black Library canon for this? Noice.

That, unfortunately, means the SM win this with ease.

The Spartans are very good and the Starcraft Marines have their advantages as well, but then the Marines start running.

Starcraft Marines are human. Marines explicitly move faster than human eyes can follow. And for your information, what your eyes can't follow, your guns certainly can't either. FTR, the speed at which something must move before the eye literally can't follow it is something akin to 504,000 mph. Good luck hitting that target, lol.

Spartans are also faster than normal humans (IIRC?) which would give them a fighting chance in theory, but they would still simply be outmatched. 'Faster than a human' says little when your target moves at Mach 80. Even if we for some obscure reason assume the Starcraft Marine armour is tougher even than PA, they would suffer death by a thousand cuts before they could strike as much as a single blow back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For a list of interesting things to consider before you say the Space Marines are beaten, take a look at http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/40k-source-and-feats-thread.235176/#post-8614291

Do you really believe that ?

Do you realize that the only way to express a tracking limitation is in radians or degrees per second, and that the distance to the object is very relevant.

Maybe that 504000 MPH, which would be Mach183 not 80, is an accurate figure for an asteroid five thousand kilometers away ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:
We already went over that part.

The popular thought here is that, Stimpacks put marines and marauders on (at least) equal footing with Eldar in terms of speed and reflexes.

And the Eldar completely obliterate Space Marines in the fluff of the Eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
'Faster than a human' says little when your target moves at Mach 80.

Fortunately for the non-GW marines we can just dismiss this as "the author is an idiot" because mach 80 space marines don't appear anywhere else and IIRC the description of the supposed mach 80 space marine isn't even consistent with that kind of speed.

Yeah, no sonic boom, no marine disintegrating from the forces exerted on the armour and body etc.

I mean lets assume that they're accelerating to their top speed in around the same time as Usain Bolt (after all, there's no point in moving faster than the eye can see if it takes you an hour to get to that speed). Bolt manages to get an acceleration out of the starting blocks of around 9.5m/s^2, allowing him to reach his top speed of 12.2m/s in around 1.28 seconds.

For a Space Marine to accelerate to 504,000mph (which is 225,300 m/s) in that amount of time they'd need to have an acceleration of 176,015m/s^2. Which is 17,942 times larger than acceleration due to Earth's gravity.

To put that into perspective, for a planet to have that kind of gravitational pull it would have to have the mass of ~18,000 Earths.

Now I have my doubts as to something needing to move that fast to be too fast for the human eye (it'll depend on the size of the object, for starters) so I'm gonna pick a much lower speed to see how that compares.

If we say 300mph, then we get an acceleration of 104m/s^2. This is 10 times faster than acceleration due to gravity on earth, so it's the equivalent of acceleration due to gravity on a planet 1.1 times the mass of earth.

That's still ridiculous, though.

What is it with people and math ?

104 m/ss = 10G equals ten times the fething mass, not 1.1 times. Besides, it would take the exact 10 times mass within the same radius for your example to work. (M1*M2/dd)

What is relevant however, is that 10G is an acceleration commonly handled by top guns and non-girly-spaceshuttle astronauts.
Just kidding, it's actually rather rare, Saturn V had a top acceleration of 11G and that was really the worst thing they'd made that far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Wait if we are using the fluff, then let's see...

Spoiler:

Grasping one talon in the formidable grip of his power fist, Neleus dragged the lictor creature out of the sand and held it momentarily, dangling from its own fore-talon. Then, with a swift movement, he crushed the talon in his fist and launched the hapless creature in the air with a swing of his immense arm, riddling it with hellfire shells as it flew. By the time it landed back in the sea of its own kind, the creature was little more than a shredded husk.

Terminators can throw a 1 ton lictor with a single arm and riddle it with bullets.

Spoiler:

Balder's fellow veterans were in formation around him, discharging volleys of lasfire from their multilasers, providing support for Hoenir's squad.

Veterans use Multilasers.

Spoiler:

With a blinding blast of red light, the Assault Marine's jump-pack went critical and its fuel cells detonated, firing him down towards the ground like a giant bolter shell. Even from where he was standing, Gabriel could see the Marine was working to release the grenades that were clipped around his belt, flinging them down into the formation of eldar below him even as he rocketed down towards them. The disciplined aliens seemed unphased (sic) for a fraction of a second, holding their firing vectors until they realised what was about to happen. Then, as the xenos creatures began to scatter away from the Wave Serpents, the string of grenades smacked into the ground and detonated all at once, blowing a huge crater into the desert and rocking the nearest Wave Serpent. In an instant, the Marine's jump-pack roared down towards the vehicle, spiralling on its axis now that it had been jettisoned by the Marine himself, until it punched heavily into the gunnery cockpit on top of the Wave Serpent, blowing it clean off the vehicle and engulfing the whole thing in a giant red fireball. The Marine himself ploughed down into the desert nearby.

Jump Packs go boom with enough strength to explode a Wave Serpent.

Much better still, that Wave Serpent has a gunnery cockpit. lmao.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

There is no canon. However, if there is something that is contradicted by every other piece of fluff ever written, and that does not make for an interesting universe, you can safely discard it from your headcanon. Or just take a less literal explanation.

Why does it matter who is strongest between a Spartan a Space Marine and an Adeptus Astartes when Sly Marbo has already killed all 3?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

There is no canon. However, if there is something that is contradicted by every other piece of fluff ever written, and that does not make for an interesting universe, you can safely discard it from your headcanon. Or just take a less literal explanation.

Headcanon. Nice word.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

Who decides where this line is to be drawn?

When space marines running mach 40 and being able to throw a carnifex.

A Space Marine running Mach 40 and German supplexing a Carnifex is completely fine though.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Where do we draw the line for when something is 'too stupid to be canon'?

Who decides where this line is to be drawn?

When space marines running mach 40 and being able to throw a carnifex.

A Space Marine running Mach 40 and German supplexing a Carnifex is completely fine though.

No thats still over the top mach 30 and supplexing a dreadnought sounds about right though.

There is no canon. However, if there is something that is contradicted by every other piece of fluff ever written, and that does not make for an interesting universe, you can safely discard it from your headcanon. Or just take a less literal explanation

Read what I have said.

Look what you have said.

Thats a logical leap right there.

What I said was the following..... Anything created by GW is considered common ground or canon, while the books or players guides from FFG and Black Library are not considered true canon.

Get your head out of arse Hybrid and taking my words and bastardizing them into something they are not.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Read what I have said.

I was talking to Ashiraya, and referencing Lynata. I do not care about what you have said.

I put him on ignore. I think he's trolling at this point anyway.

Now I'm just seeing how long this can go before it gets the axe.

I still say the fluff doesn't matter, the tabletop is the real litmus test. Astartes are joke in that case.

Martel732 wrote:
I put him on ignore. I think he's trolling at this point anywya.

Now I'm just seeing how long this can go before it gets the axe.

I still say the fluff doesn't matter, the tabletop is the real litmus test. Astartes are joke in that case.

Who Hybrid?

Or me? I have trying to talk to both sides. And I have conceded to points that have been made.

Space Marines win in the fluff. And starcraft marines lose no matter what.

This whole thread is an entirely a joke.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Who Hybrid?

Or me?

He cannot answer you, because he cannot read you .

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected .

Aside from Ash, it looks like most people here, who previously were ignorant of the StarCraft marines and Spartans, have learned a thing or two about them, and wont underestimate them in the future.

As it turned out, a battle between space marines and Terran marines surprisingly enough favored the Terrans. I feel like this is the result of the Terran’s overall better gear and easy accessibility to better support and numbers, whereas space marine are an ill-conceived and self-contradictory elite force, who doesn’t know what it wants to be.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Who Hybrid?

Or me?

He cannot answer you, because he cannot read you .

I like how he thinks you might be the one on ignore though.

Guess what Ash, you're on pretty much everyone's ignore list in this thread by now. At least pretty much all those who use the ignore button at all.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected .

Aside from Ash, it looks like most people here, who previously were ignorant of the StarCraft marines and Spartans, have learned a thing or two about them, and wont underestimate them in the future.

As it turned out, a battle between space marines and Terran marines surprisingly enough favored the Terrans. I feel like this is the result of the Terran’s overall better gear and easy accessibility to better support and numbers, whereas space marine are an ill-conceived and self-contradictory elite force, who doesn’t know what it wants to be.

The fact that GW neglects to elaborate on their own creation, instead relying a bunch of independent writers to do so doesn't help matters.
I think a Space Marine is indeed superior to a Terran Marine, or at least, intended to be. I also think that for an franchise that's so dependent on it's IP its sorely lacking in details and tends to be poorly executed.
GW in a nutshell, really.
Starcraft wins out in that regard; more details, more consistency.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The ignorance in this thread in regards to Halo and Starcraft is soul-crushing though, if not unexpected .

Aside from Ash, it looks like most people here, who previously were ignorant of the StarCraft marines and Spartans, have learned a thing or two about them, and wont underestimate them in the future.

As it turned out, a battle between space marines and Terran marines surprisingly enough favored the Terrans. I feel like this is the result of the Terran’s overall better gear and easy accessibility to better support and numbers, whereas space marine are an ill-conceived and self-contradictory elite force, who doesn’t know what it wants to be.

Yes because Starcraft Marines are incredibly elite.

They are not powerful.

Lets see what have I said in this thread: Hmmm..


If you ignore me and say I don't know anything about starcraft I've been playin starcraft since early 2000.

Infact starcraft is one of my favorite game series. Saying I am ignorant of it is saying of something of you and assuming I don't know anything. I would love to be in defense of starcraft.
But in this case I can't because 40k is basically the dragon ball z in this match up. Over the Top and stupidly powerful.

Considering I played competitve starcraft for years and years saying I am ignorant is just extremely rude in this regard.

Considering all that has happened is me providing evidence and sources and you providing no sources, no information just heresay and what you think and assuming that means it stronger.

I have provided that evidence and you have not. Just relying on gameplay elements instead of lore examples.

You have said things like:

WE have all agreed that Terran marines with stims make them as fast eldar.

With that in mind I ask you this..

What type of mutagens, drugs or chemicals are placed inside these stimpacks.

AS we know the drugs in Warhammer 40k have multiple chemicals that don't even exist.

We are comparing two things and two different universes, there are bound to be people who like to compare a fictional metal to real life metal. But we can't we don't have specifics. We don't know how hard the material is.

We don't know how reactive it is to modern day gunfire. We don't have a reference for that. We only have heresay.

I Know a few peeps on here who keep trying to say it, but they haven't done anything to prove it otherwise.

For the purposes of debate we require three things

1. Believablity - Does it make sense in terms of argument?
2. Sources - Where are you getting this information
3. Credibility - How does your audience percieve the information you are giving, are you insulting or giving information out of your butt.

Sources are what help move a debate. The more you post and say this and that are true but I am more true than you because I say so. Are not at all credible.

Infact in this debate we have people who have said things like this

Marines can take out BattleCruisers

Okay yes in terms of game mechanics but then we have in the lore. More specifically the starcraft books where the marines can't kill the battlecruisers.Mostly Liberty's Crusade a book detailing how marines are unable to actually shoot down a battle cruiser and have to run and duck into cover and hope to god the air support does not see you.

In fact one of my favorite bits of lore ever is the Great War where Jim Raynor acts as a Confederate and fights for the Confederacy.

Or there bit where a Goliath faced an ultralisk. I don't know both are quite awesome.

uess what Ash, you're on pretty much everyone's ignore list in this thread by now. At least pretty much all those who use the ignore button at all.

How very mature of you ^.^

I won't back down on this debate if people keep attacking me and thinking me stupid because I don't agree.

This says more about you that it does me.

Starcraft wins out in that regard; more details, more consistency.

It also helps that most of blizzard's writing staff work together and discuss this stuff more often and try to make it believable first rather than for because it is cool. Like GW does, but GW has weapons that make us go thats impossible. When really its their universe that has these bizarre rules that 40k has.

Mostly the fact that space marines also have access to 6km ships and planet killing weaponry.

Where STarcraft's greatest weapons are nukes. Where the imperium's greatest weapons are planet killing or solar system killing.

Space Marines do not go into combat unprepared and the entire idea that people think that space marines are unsuperior to their terran marines. Is mostly based on biased idea, rather that actual comparision data or any form of data.


For this sake of the argument I will pull up some old data from a friend of mine who did a similar argument on this.

Mostly based on this myth that the imperium does not have access to railguns....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/345467.page

The Imperium may have the rare piece of dark age technology which surpasses that of any other races, its just that most of its is either lost, or next to othing is known about it so as it cannont be reproguced or even properally maintained. The Tau have high tech equiptment on a large scale wheras the Imperium of the 41st Millenium has to rely on lower grade mass produced tech because they are laregly unable to produce the better stuff (which they inevitably end up losing altogether). Circa Great Crusade definately the Imperium, at least on a small scale (though is a pulse rifle more advanced than a bolter?), before that man had tech on par with the Eldar, if not even more advanced, nowadays their mostly using clunky pieces of junk, but they may have the juicier stuff stashed away here and there (that'll never be used due to Mechanicus sanctions).

the Imperium certaintly has a vaster knowledge of Technology.


the T'au, however, have a greater degree of applied Technology.

the Imperium has Railguns too, but they are massive and only mounted on space ships. the T'au have managed to make the Tech more efficient to where it can be put on land units.

the Imperium's Plasma weaponry is at the same level as the T'au, but the T'au don't use the Tech to it's full potential and keep the weapons to a safe level. the Imperium has no such safety concerns and makes more powerful weapons.

the Imperium has an edge in Space Travel too. the T'au, being a Psykerless race, can't harness the full potential of the Warp Drive and can only make short jumps.


T'au are also limited by their lifespans. they only live about 40 standard terran years while humans like at least twice as long, up to 10 times as long with Juvnat treatments. a T'au firewarrior simply won't ever get to an experiance level a Human can because he won't ever see as many battlefields.

on the issue of AI:

while the T'au are currently enjoying the benifits of AI, History must be remembered.

Humanity also had AI once. they were called the Iron Men, fully autonomous hominoids capable of thinking and perfoming independent action.

then these AI's realized they didn't need Humans anymore and so the War of the Iron Men began, triggering the end of the Dark age of Technology and the fall of the Old Night.

Humanity eventually eradicated the Iron Men, but they weren't forgotten. Humans realized that AI that is capable of human level thought processes was dangerous.


true AI was replaced with what is called the Machine Spirit. a computer made up of both Biological and mechanical componts. as a result, the AI can't function or replicate without Human intervention at some point in time and is prevented from rebelling.



the T'au will eventually suffer the same issues. they will realize that their own pathetic bodies are poorly suited to warfare in this Galaxy. they will create warrior machines who will eventually rebel against the T'au.

the T'au will be ill suited to stopping their AI rebellion because of the small empire size and realitivly low T'au to AI ratio they will have.

The Space marines are in terms of regard are called warriors without peer. This is not even getting into the debate of how much damage a space marine weapon can do.

Considering it is basically firing an artillery weapon. But due to balance space marines on the tabletop cannot represent this.

But there are movie marines which are considered to be lore friendly and can take out entire armies by themselves. (Read White Dwarf 300)

The Imperium also has access to what the starcraft universe doesn't even have. Warp Drives. The imperium has mastered the stars and rules a gaxaly wide empire. AT its height it almost conquered the whole bloody thing. While the entire starcraft universe is in the korpulu sector a small amount of space compared to the imperium.

What some are saying is that a company of space marines are unable to pacify a human race when they have faced the same type of thing before. During the Great Crusades, Space marines faced different amounts of threats and warriors. They faced during the Great Crusade many horrors and creatures that make the Terrans quite self conscious.

The terrans can barely defeat the zerg. The Imperium faces the Tyranids an ever evolving force that evolves while it is fighting. Not to mention the space marines have killed entire fleets, while the starcraft universe has been unable to manage defeating the zerg. At all.

Now people have brought up ghosts and their abilities, but have yet to list any. Going by starcraft lore that I have read and remember they are very passive abilities, such as reading opponents minds and being able to push stuff with their powers. But them being pyschic, is true but their powers are quite underpowered compared to a space marine libarain who can actually cast bolts of fire and crush bones with very little effort.

We also have the issue about stimpacks

"These inbuilt chemical delivery systems dose marines with a powerful mix of synthetic adrenaline, endorphins, and a psychotropic aggression enhancer. Marines on stims benefit from greatly increased speed and reflexes, but are subject to long-term side effects including and not limited to insomnia, weight loss, mania/hypomania, seizures, paranoiac hallucinations, internal hemorrhaging, and cerebral deterioration. Nonetheless, both commanders and the marines themselves stand by the use of stims as essential to their continued survival and effectiveness on the battlefield."

^This does not mean they are stronger or faster than a space marine. These are temporary only last for a few amount of seconds, but they can't abuse it all the time in combat or become completely unable to deliver the chemicals.

In terms of armor the terran marines have CMC powered combat armor which has a limited amount of power compared to it.

The CMC-300 Powered Combat Suit is the much improved successor to the CMC-200. It was already in service by 2478[17] and was standard issue to marines during the Great War.[18] The CMC-300 masses several hundred pounds and adds a foot to the wearer's height.[10] Old Confederate-era CMC-300's continue to be issued to some Dominion garrisons after the Brood War.[19] The suit is powered by cold fusion cartridges that are inserted into the suit's chest.[20] These reactors have an operational failure rate of less than 0.5% in the field, a figure so impressive that it's regularly attributed to divine providence.

The upper back section of the suit houses a series of tubes which make up the bulk of an efficient liquid cooling system, assisted by a twin set of high-speed turbines. These "afterburners," as they are commonly known, vent the heat generated by the suit’s power supply, and the temperature buildup in harsh atmospheric conditions.[21]

The CMC-300 also has the following features:

Marine SC1 Art2
CMC-300 armor (variant aesthetic)
Advanced NBC shielding.[18]
Aural Directional Enhancers: Help clarify the source of external and transmitted sounds.[22]
Full life support.[10]
Gravity Generation: The suit is compatible with gravity accelerators for use on space platforms.[12] Grav-boots may provide an alternative though.[23]
Enhanced protection, but can still be penetrated by a needle gun.[10]
HUD: A Heads-Up Display (HUD) is built into the visor. Its features include infra-red vision,[11] a "navigation mode" which superimposes a map of surrounding terrain and pinpoints prominent features,[22] targeting systems,[24] is capable of displaying life support as a percentage and the amount of ammunition in a soldier's equipped weapon, the ability to detect motion to some extent,[25] and a data system which, with the appropriate link, can let the user 'jack in' to video and data feeds, the information scrolling across the visor.[22][17] The visor itself may be lowered/raised[26] and/or (un)polarized at the user's discretion,[22] though will automatically (un)polarize based on the intensity of light hitting it.[17] Colors that can result include black[26] and gold.[22]
Integrated communication system.[22]
Lockdown System: Used to stabilize wounded soldiers and/or prevent a shorted-out suit from misfiring. The disadvantage is that it prevents the user from moving.[24]
At least some versions of the suit pump narcotics into the wounded wearer's bloodstream when its user is wounded, which can cause the wearer to fall unconscious.[10]
Mufflers which reduce the amount of noise the suit makes and the user's heat signature.[10] Difference exists as to how much sound is masked however.[27]
Shoulder and/or chest mounted illuminators.[26] The spectrum is determined via voice activation.[22]
Structural Support: The amount of support that the suit provides is greatly increased from the CMC-200 model, increasing his/her strength and speed, stamina no longer becoming an issue. The servos enable a wearer to dash up steep slopes and safely land from heights of twenty feet.[22]
The C-14 rifle may be connected to and powered by the suit.[22]
Marine SC2 Cncpt4
CMC design
Overall, the suit is a marked improvement over its predecessor. However, its extensive servo-systems leave it vulnerable to immobilization should they be disrupted (e.g. a hydralisk scythe plunging into the chest).[24] The amount of power it consumes is also extensive; the helmet is generally left off outside of combat to conserve energy

Accordingly this armor is advanced, but there is power consumption problems with it as it has been listed as this armor locks down if it has received damage to central systems. Something the Space Marines do not have to worry about as much.

CMC armor is powerful but it lacks a suitable power source for suitable amount of time hence why marines have to recharge quite often according to the lore.

It also has the problem of delivering drugs that might knock out the user. Which again the space marines don't have to deal with having superior medical technology that saves them quite often.

The only superiority among the CMC is radiation protection, but considering neither side have access to nukes.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I won't back down on this debate if people keep attacking me and thinking me stupid because I don't agree.

It is not about what you think, it is about how you act about it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
This says more about you that it does me.

It says something about all of us rather than the single of you.

 Asherian Command wrote:
What I said was the following..... Anything created by GW is considered common ground or canon, while the books or players guides from FFG and Black Library are not considered true canon.

Games Workshop's official stance is that all of the fluff is told by an unreliable narrator, and is therefore true and false at the same time. Warhammer 40K has continuity and consistency, but nothing can be truly described as canon, as the powers that be never set anything in stone. Or to put it another way, Space Marines look a certain way and behave along certain guidelines, but exact details change depending on who is telling the story.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
What I said was the following..... Anything created by GW is considered common ground or canon, while the books or players guides from FFG and Black Library are not considered true canon.

Games Workshop's official stance is that all of the fluff is told by an unreliable narrator, and is therefore true and false at the same time. Warhammer 40K has continuity and consistency, but nothing can be truly described as canon, as the powers that be never set anything in stone. Or to put it another way, Space Marines look a certain way and behave along certain guidelines, but exact details change depending on who is telling the story.

Exactly. I remember reading that bit, but we all agree that space marine ground work or middle ground is by GW. I remember hearing the unreliable narrator argument. And I quite agree with that conjecture or idea.

Yeah that reminds me of the debate whether how tall a space marine truly is.

Especially how they are sometimes described as 10 feet tall or a 7 feet tall. We are not really sure in this degree.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I won't back down on this debate if people keep attacking me and thinking me stupid because I don't agree.

It is not about what you think, it is about how you act about it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
This says more about you that it does me.

It says something about all of us rather than the single of you.

^
Those sentences make little sense. Please correct them and look at the argument presented, not the poster.

Personal attacks will not get you anywhere here.



In terms of what has been presented. All that has been said has been repeated and thrown off again and again. Mostly because this thread's people who support starcraft have all ignored the first page and the multiple threads I have showed.

If you want to part of the discussion please read both sides. Not fit yourself an echo chamber and think yourself superior in that regard when you ignore information and just keep to your argument. You can say well ASherian you have been doing that. Not really, my argument hasn't changed but I have said many things which have been ignored. If I have posted sources and information you should read them. Not assume just because I am posting them they are wrong. Also because I have agreed on many things. Such as the culture, old man's war marines, and the starship troopers being able to give the space marines their asses.

You can block people all you want. But your just making an echo chamber for yourself. This is the same argument I presented to many users who use the block button. You can use it, but it is your own discretion. Infact I block most users because its actually easier to read peoples arguments if I can hide users posts. I should probably ask the Dakka Admins and Moderators if we can add a function where we can hide someones posts so we don't have to see it all the time. Man that would be useful.

Also we have this debate whether to who would win a fight. Most these fights get quite heated. No matter the subject matter.

 Happyjew wrote:
but exact details change depending on who is telling the story.

With that in mind, a better way to look at space marines is just to think of them as a propaganda tool. Maybe space marine are so rare because they don’t even exist.
Perhaps they all died out during the Horus Heresy and the grand tales we hear about them and their supposed heroics, may simply be nothing more than lies and myths spread by the rulers of the imperium.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
but exact details change depending on who is telling the story.

With that in mind, a better way to look at space marines is just to think of them as a propaganda tool. Maybe space marine are so rare because they don’t even exist.
Perhaps they all died out during the Horus Heresy and the grand tales we hear about them and their supposed heroics, may simply be nothing more than lies and myths spread by the rulers of the imperium.

Err. Then how do you explain the eye of terror campagin where USkar Creed met with the Dark Angels

I am pretty sure they are real in the lore.

They are just not as righteous and holy saviors as they appear to be. They might be more soldier like.

As the Custodes were warriors and the Astartes Soldiers.

There has been this comparision by the Word Bearers.

But there is also lore to suggest differently.

Space Marines do exist but I don't think they are as frequent.

The most common fighters in the imperium are the IG and planetary defense forces often not needing the help of space marines and being able to repel threats quite often by themselves. Most of these threats that are talked about in the lore are extremely rare on the amount of occurrences that actually happen.

Space marines are rarely called for small things, They are the big guns.

The Guard are the hammer, The Assassins the knife, the Inqusition the shield. The Space marines the sword.

Space marines don’t exist, or rather there so few of them that it doesn’t matter. It would help explain why they’re so abysmal (rule wise) and self-contradictory (fluff wise.)

All of their great achievements could simply be nothing more than propaganda stories distributed by the imperial office to keep their citizens loyal.

The fluff of 40K is nothing more than legends and myths. Even the designers of GW say so.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Space marines don’t exist, or rather there so few of them that it doesn’t matter. It would help explain why they’re so abysmal (rule wise) and self-contradictory (fluff wise.)

All of their great achievements could simply be nothing more than propaganda stories distributed by the imperial office to keep their citizens loyal.

The fluff of 40K is nothing more than legends and myths. Even the designers of GW say so.

These are the same people who also can't decided how tall a space marine is.


Space marines techincally do exist in the 40k universe. They are involved in the bigger and more determined battles. But I don't think it really matters, I think it is more of the fact that space marines are not deployed for smaller battles, they are deployed when they are needed. The guard can't always complete it.

I think they do matter but not as much as the lore says it is.

The Lore is not really myths and legends its more propaganda. Not legends.

Nah it’s all myths. If space marines truly were used in big wars the way they are portrayed in the fluff, then they would all be dead by now.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Nah it’s all myths. If space marines truly were used in big wars the way they are portrayed in the fluff, then they would all be dead by now.

I don't know the ARmaggedon war two chapters were destroyed.

Remember they are special forces.

There are not a thousand marines per a chapter, and are far more effective than we think. Especially the Raptors and Raven Guard.

You can believe that, thats up to you.

It confuses me when people talk about 'Ash'. Do they mean me or Asherian Command?

In most cases I can figure out with the context, but not always.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It confuses me when people talk about 'Ash'. Do they mean me or Asherian Command?

In most cases I can figure out with the context, but not always.

YEs usually they mean me.

But Techinically I would rather be called Asherian.

Ash reminds me quite a bit of Ashley XD

 Asherian Command wrote:
Remember they are special forces.

Space marine don’t behave the same way a special force would.

They fight the enemy up front (like knights). Their leaders often challenge their opponents to an honorable dual (like knights.) They used melee weapons (like knights.)

They’re knights in space. Knights on Earth died out somewhere between the year of 1600 and 1700. Astartes died out not long after the scouring. It’s the only sensible explanation there is.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Remember they are special forces.

Space marine don’t behave the same way a special force would.

They fight the enemy up front (like knights). Their leaders often challenge their opponents to an honorable dual (like knights.) They used melee weapons (like knights.)

They’re knights in space. Knights on Earth died out somewhere between the year of 1600 and 1700. Astartes died out not long after the scouring. It’s the only sensible explanation there is.

Thats barring out many chapters that don't do that. IE. Mentors Legion, Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, Raptors, Mantis Warriors, Death Spectres etc.

There are many chapters that don't do that, you can keep saying that but you won't convince me or change my mind on that.

I also don't have any respect for a marine that gets his face beat in by Orks because he won't pack a knife in his rucksack.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Thats barring out many chapters that don't do that.

Many chapters?

Is 5 out of 1000 chapters many to you?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Alpha Legion

Alpha Legion is a chaos warband.

 Asherian Command wrote:
you won't convince me or change my mind on that.

I gave up on that a long time ago.

So CSM don't exist either it's all lies by Chaos renegades?

Well I have never seen a CSM with my own eyes, so I can neither confirm nor deny that.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So CSM don't exist either it's all lies by Chaos renegades?

Yep apparently to Red.

Or yes.

Apparently the horus heresy, The Macharian wars all that is also hogwash according to Red

Apparently it is myth and legend. Which makes me laugh quite a bit.

Nice strawman Ash.

No competition space marines don't matter what chapter or what company or anything they win period.

I'm sure tons of people are like "no they wouldn't bla bla bla" dont care starcraft troops are convict idiots who are slaughtered by little homergaunts... wait i mean zerglings.
Halo is cool and all but I don't think they could stand vs a space marines let alone hope there bullets can actually pierce there armor.

Make it far space marines in scout armor that's fair

 Redcruisair wrote:
Nice strawman Ash.

It was completely on purpose my friend

Make it far space marines in scout armor that's fair

Then Starcraft marines might have a chance.

I'll start writing up some tabletop rules from the games

And using TGs Chapter Master (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Chapter_Master_(game)#External_Links)

Which allows us to simulate battles and things.

So you’re lying on purpose? I would expect nothing less from you.

 Redcruisair wrote:
So you’re lying on purpose? I would expect nothing less from you.

Hows that lying? Strawmanning isn't lying. Strawmanning is taking an argument and reducing it to certain level that it misses the whole point.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Nah it’s all myths. If space marines truly were used in big wars the way they are portrayed in the fluff, then they would all be dead by now.

Perhaps they are as dangerous as people say then
Imagine if they were used properly

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Nah it’s all myths. If space marines truly were used in big wars the way they are portrayed in the fluff, then they would all be dead by now.

Perhaps they are as dangerous as people say then
Imagine if they were used properly

Just imagine the consequences of using them right. Like its described by raven guard and several chapters practices.

So we all agree on space marines being trash in general? Great!

 Redcruisair wrote:
So we all agree on space marines being trash in general? Great!

Trash? No.
They have all the parts needed to be legendary.
The problem is that the writers have conflicting ideas on how to portray them, which gets confusing.
I personally distaste the whole heroic space knight version of the Space Marines, as it tends to rely heavily on plot armor. Same reason why I don't like the Jedi.
Luke Skywalker should have died in that Death Star.

I never liked the idea of the Space Marines as an independent army on the battlefield; to me they should have always been supplements to a larger Imperial force, typically the Imperial Guard.
This is particularly perplexing when it comes to the table top game; you could have about 100 marines in a single FOC, which is about 10% of a chapter. That is ridiculous.
Now what they could do is start using chapter serfs on the field; there are more chapter serfs then there are marines.
With chapter serfs, huge battles with SM could be justified, as they now have the man power to actually fight head on.

If I sound confusing, I apologize; it's late over here.

 Redcruisair wrote:
So you’re lying on purpose? I would expect nothing less from you.

Someone who is seriously arguing that the Space Marines are extinct or nearly extinct probably shouldn't take the high ground here.

A Space Marine would kill a Spartan easily. I don't know about Terran Marines.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I personally distaste the whole heroic space knight version of the Space Marines, as it tends to rely heavily on plot armor. Same reason why I don't like the Jedi.
Luke Skywalker should have died in that Death Star.

You know, it's funny that you say this when the only reason Luke survived the death star attack is that Han (an average human with no magic powers) decided that there was something more important than money and came back to save him.

 Peregrine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I personally distaste the whole heroic space knight version of the Space Marines, as it tends to rely heavily on plot armor. Same reason why I don't like the Jedi.
Luke Skywalker should have died in that Death Star.

You know, it's funny that you say this when the only reason Luke survived the death star attack is that Han (an average human with no magic powers) decided that there was something more important than money and came back to save him.

I take it all those Stormtroopers forgot to clean their helmet lenses then?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I personally distaste the whole heroic space knight version of the Space Marines, as it tends to rely heavily on plot armor. Same reason why I don't like the Jedi.
Luke Skywalker should have died in that Death Star.

You know, it's funny that you say this when the only reason Luke survived the death star attack is that Han (an average human with no magic powers) decided that there was something more important than money and came back to save him.

I take it all those Stormtroopers forgot to clean their helmet lenses then?

I'm guessing Cthulu was referring to Return of the Jedi? In that case the imperials had a bit more to worry about than one dude carrying Darth Vader considering that the Executor had crashed into the Death Star and it was starting to lose structural integrity.

Not to mention all the rebel ships outside, deflector shield down and imminent threat of destruction etc.

He's mentioning that the storm troopers couldn't hit luke skywalker when they shot at him, in Ep IV.

Apparently the Die Hard films are also about Jedi, and so is like

The Untouchables?

I guess the heroes get shot in that movie, but I'm kind of blanking. I don't watch a lot of action movies. The Postman?

Wow, I'm having a really hard time coming up with movies involving gunfights.

This post was supposed to be so succinct.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
What I said was the following..... Anything created by GW is considered common ground or canon, while the books or players guides from FFG and Black Library are not considered true canon.

Games Workshop's official stance is that all of the fluff is told by an unreliable narrator, and is therefore true and false at the same time. Warhammer 40K has continuity and consistency, but nothing can be truly described as canon, as the powers that be never set anything in stone. Or to put it another way, Space Marines look a certain way and behave along certain guidelines, but exact details change depending on who is telling the story.

And some storytellers like Space Marines a lot *wink* *wink*

I meant that part in Episode 4 where Skywalker was in enemy territory, and was running away from a bunch of trained soldiers who were quite familiar with their territory, and who had plenty of clear shots.

Anyway, it helps if you consider the Space Marines to suffer from a chronic case of Worf syndrome.
They are like, an army of Worfs.

Adeptus Astartes! Too easy on this one.. Come back when the lore for these other clowns has been developed a bit more. Starcraft somewhat borrowed the idea from 40k anyways of a tactical space marine. Of course 40k adopted its ideas from other premise as well but overall i consider most of their material to be quite original. IMO i would take a 40k space marine to be far superior to these other guys if following lore and not tabletop of which there is a large disparity for a reason as for the actual gameplay to be more fair and balanced.

Actually the concept of tactical space marines comes from Starship troopers.
The book, not the movie.

" if following lore"

But in the lore of the Xenos, they own the Space Marines. Maybe GW's tabletop game is telling us we should listen to that lore instead.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Someone who is seriously arguing that the Space Marines are extinct or nearly extinct probably shouldn't take the high ground here.

You would put me lower than someone who regularly misquotes other people posts and makes huge sweeping blanket statements?

Hmm that’s interesting.

Martel732 wrote:
" if following lore"

But in the lore of the Xenos, they own the Space Marines. Maybe GW's tabletop game is telling us we should listen to that lore instead.

Sometimes. If really depends if the author wants to Worf the Space Marines or not, to show that the latest threat to the Imperium is srs bizniss.

Any Worfing of the Space Marines basically supports the tableto p versions, not the fluff versions.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Someone who is seriously arguing that the Space Marines are extinct or nearly extinct probably shouldn't take the high ground here.

You would put me lower than someone who regularly misquotes other people posts and makes huge sweeping blanket statements?

Hmm that’s interesting.

Hmm misquoting.

Please PM me with those misquotes.

And blanketing statements?

Where?

Any Worfing of the Space Marines basically supports the tableto p versions, not the fluff versions.

Not really. You keep saying that but I could show you the video games. Where a single group of 4 space marines have as much health as 12 orks

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Someone who is seriously arguing that the Space Marines are extinct or nearly extinct probably shouldn't take the high ground here.

You would put me lower than someone who regularly misquotes other people posts and makes huge sweeping blanket statements?

Hmm that’s interesting.

Hmm misquoting.

Please PM me with those misquotes.

And blanketing statements?

Where?

Any Worfing of the Space Marines basically supports the tableto p versions, not the fluff versions.

Not really. You keep saying that but I could show you the video games. Where a single group of 4 space marines have as much health as 12 orks

Now there the Worfing is not in effect.

Doesn't change the fact that there is directly contradictory lore.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Please PM me with those misquotes.

Do your own research man.

Here’s what you do
Step 1: go to your profile page
Step 2: click on the “Posts” button located under “User History”
Step 3: read the posts you made in this thread
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't change the fact that there is directly contradictory lore.

Among the black library and gw writers.

Yes. That happen when you have an IP That has been around for 25 years.

Look at LOTR the biggest debate is whether Glorfindel is the same glorfindel of Gondlion. Because in LOTR only one elf has the name given to them.

Meaning there is only ever one elf named elrond or arwen.


Also the burden of truth is on the accuser. Not the accused. Red.

Please learn to stop insulting people. Thank you.

 Redcruisair wrote:

You would put me lower than someone who regularly misquotes other people posts and makes huge sweeping blanket statements?

Yep, I would indeed place someone actively and purposefully spreading misinformation resulting from a biased perception of the fluff lower than that.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

You would put me lower than someone who regularly misquotes other people posts and makes huge sweeping blanket statements?

Yep, I would indeed place someone actively and purposefully spreading misinformation resulting from a biased perception of the fluff lower than that.

Me too. But i'm consoled by the fact that the starcraft marines won the crunch battle, and spartan marines won the fluff battle.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

You would put me lower than someone who regularly misquotes other people posts and makes huge sweeping blanket statements?

Yep, I would indeed place someone actively and purposefully spreading misinformation resulting from a biased perception of the fluff lower than that.

Me too. But i'm consoled by the fact that the starcraft marines won the crunch battle, and spartan marines won the fluff battle.

I am still confused how you got to that conclusion.

Thats more of a logical leap right now.

I vote Doomguy.

kodi wrote:
I vote Doomguy.

Doomguy isn't on the Original post.

So no!

Make your own thread about that. Might be educational.

I vote Doomguy too!

I vote Prophet.

If we're comparing crunch it's more fair to use Dawn of War II to compare to Starcraft, as it's also an RTS.

Dawn of War II is ironically more realistic, with a less broken sense of scale, melee attacks for ranged units and generally less 'arcade' game mechanics.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I vote Prophet.

Ohhhhhhh Yeah

Have an exalt

Having read played, and loved all three of the franchises up here today, I'm honestly shocked anyone put the astartes below number one. Jim raynor would get bent into a pretzel by a space marine, and master chief would be ripped a new donkey-cave by the likes of marneus calgar or Lysander.

space marines are just so over the top in all regards that no other modern science fiction can compare.

In 40k terms, halo and Starcraft are using stubborn while the marines are using bolters. Or, halo, Terra's are using assault rifles, Spartans have brs, marines have brute shots. With scopes.

And people cslling Starcraft marines elite make me lol. Brain washed convicts, stuffed into suits of armor, given a gun, and sent off to die for the confederacy/dominion. They are the imperial guardsmen of Starcraft, with a lot less numbers and a bit better armor.

 Crazyterran wrote:
space marines are just so over the top in all regards that no other modern science fiction can compare.

No, not even close. Plenty of modern scifi universes could effortlessly exterminate everything in 40k, if they would even care enough to bother with such a trivial task. For example, the only question about whether a single Culture civilian transport ship could kill the entire 40k universe would be whether it could do it with its own guns, or if it would have to construct some proper warships first.

Indeed, the original "Space Marines", the Starship Troopers, would put a 40k Space Marine to shame, and do so without the same level of derpy plot armor. Jump jets, tactical nuclear rockets, multiple other weapons systems (like lasers or automatic cannon and flamers), etc.

By modern, I meant those in popular culture, not over the top, hardly known franchises/book series.

Starship Troopers would be better than whatever books the culture is from.

As for the three we are 'discussing', you put nothing forward to refute what I said, other than some other, irrelevant soldiers could beat these three.

People on forums these days, God...

 Vaktathi wrote:
Indeed, the original "Space Marines", the Starship Troopers, would put a 40k Space Marine to shame, and do so without the same level of derpy plot armor. Jump jets, tactical nuclear rockets, multiple other weapons systems (like lasers or automatic cannon and flamers), etc.

Yeah, Heinlein's Space Marines are pretty scary. More mobile and carries a lot more firepower than the astartes.

 Crazyterran wrote:
As for the three we are 'discussing', you put nothing forward to refute what I said, other than some other, irrelevant soldiers could beat these three.

Well, I have run conclusive test in my own private testing facility comparing how Astartes armors and CMC Combat Suit, by putting dummies covered in sensors in them, firing a variety of weapons at them (C-14, bolters, plasma, melta, shuriken catapult, 180mm Shock Cannon, …), and the result were unanimous: the CMC performed better than every mark of Astartes armor in every case. The C-14 rifle actually did make huge gaping hole into Astartes armor.
I also organized for both kind of marines, both in full gear, to engage into running contest (the stimed marines performed better) and shooting contest (both were allowed any targetting equipment they wanted, which allowed the Starcraft marines to come up on top yet again).

 Crazyterran wrote:
By modern, I meant those in popular culture, not over the top, hardly known franchises/book series.

And with that you hand wave away some the most popular science fiction series and books today.

Just because you haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it is hardly known. And without reading it, how do you determine that it is over the top?

I can't believe that there seems to be a large number if people here proposing that SC marines are superior.

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
I can't believe that there seems to be a large number if people here proposing that SC marines are superior.

Why not? The whole deal with 40K is that mandkind's technolegy is faulty and in a constant state of regression. Even the gear and armor space marines rely on doesn't have that oomph they use to have.

Now, contrast that with SC where the technologey of the Terran's is anomalously explained to be reliable and constanlty improved upon, and you'll realise why people lean more towards StarCraft marines as being least the more sensible choice between the two.

 Redcruisair wrote:

Da Mediokre Painta wrote:
I can't believe that there seems to be a large number if people here proposing that SC marines are superior.

Why not? The whole deal with 40K is that mandkind's technolegy is faulty and in a constant state of regression. Even the gear and armor space marines rely on doesn't have that oomph they use to have.

Now, contrast that with SC where the technologey of the Terran's is anomalously explained to be reliable and constanlty improved upon, and you'll realise why people lean more towards StarCraft marines as being least the more sensible choice between the two.

No way, the suits in SC run on some gas turbine generation tech that just is centuries behind the fusion core that Space Marines have. And IoM tech isn't unreliable by a long shot.

IoM tech may not be at the height that it once was, but that doesn't mean that SC's is even comparable.

With guys like indrick boreale running the show, it's amazing the Astartes ever beat anyone.

Alternatively, given how so awesomely amazing SMs are, why has the human race been teetering on the verge of the abyss for the past 10,000 years?