Just for you Byte.

Which one is more broken?

None of them are "broken". Riptides only excel when supported by Marker Lights, so on its own it's ignorable. DreadKnights are the weaker of the three, has weaker weaponry, and only excels in CC. WraithKnights are the better of the three, having better ranged weapons and higher toughness, yet it is not that great in CC and has to pay for a "downgrade" in order to deal more than 2 wounds a turn at range.

Individually, they are all balanced against each other. Supported is a different story, but even there each of the three remains fairly balanced against each other when supported correctly.

SJ

or would it be more appropriate to ask which one provides the most bang for the points costs?

All three are reliant to different degrees on outside factors... so it makes a direct comparison tough.

Markerlights make the Riptide a legitimate monster at range, but throwing enough Warp-Charges (and a little luck), at giving a Dreadknight Sanctuary and Force, suddenly makes him able to trounce the others in CC.

So, as with most 40k... anything in a bubble isn't generally broken, its just that combinations of circumstances can elevate some units well above their weight-class.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
and only excels in CC.

Wouldn't exactly call a S6 torrent flamer and what is basically a S7 6 shot assault cannon "only excels in CC".

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
All three are reliant to different degrees on outside factors... so it makes a direct comparison tough.

Markerlights make the Riptide a legitimate monster at range, but throwing enough Warp-Charges (and a little luck), at giving a Dreadknight Sanctuary and Force, suddenly makes him able to trounce the others in CC.

So, as with most 40k... anything in a bubble isn't generally broken, its just that combinations of circumstances can elevate some units well above their weight-class.

This is very true.

However, I would argue that Tau have the most reliable other factors, since psykers are not that reliable unless taken in massive numbers (granted, Grey knights can do that quite well).
Ignores cover is really all the riptide needs to become an engine of destruction that lesser codexes fall before.

I would say its Riptide>>Dreadknight>Wraithknight.

That being said, Wraiths above all else

Riptide is the most bent, if you are considering an Ion Accelerator. If not then it's a tossup between the knights.

my 2c:

Riptide is the best for distant killing and anti-reserves.
Wraithknight is faster, has better (ranged) weapons and a freaking T8 6W
Dreadknight is the best melee

Akiasura wrote:
However, I would argue that Tau have the most reliable other factors, since psykers are not that reliable unless taken in massive numbers (granted, Grey knights can do that quite well).
Ignores cover is really all the riptide needs to become an engine of destruction that lesser codexes fall before.

I would say its Riptide>>Dreadknight>Wraithknight.

That being said, Wraiths above all else

Even though the Riptide does not have to worry about Psychic fall out unlike the Dreadknight it is the only one out of the three that can hurt itself 1/3 of the time with no saves of any kind allowed unless it takes an expensive Feel No Pain upgrade. I think Dreadknights are the most powerful based on the fact that they are cheaper, have access to instant death weaponry thanks to their Psychic powers and are much more versatile then the Riptide. Same goes for the Wraithknigt when it comes to versatility, where the Dreadknight and Wraithknight can do damage in close combat te Riptide is truly only a threat at range. I we want to break down supporting options that make each of them great we would get a large variety of different options that may or may not be related.

Riptides are broken as hell with how hard it is to hurt them. The base chassis needs to cost more.

"Dreadknight is the best melee "

Wrong edition for me to worry about that.

Riptide could do to lose a wound. The most telling point to me is that in almost two years, no matter what the points level, every single Tau army I've seen, from pickup game to top tournament, 750pt games to 2000pt games, includes at least one. It might as well be a "1+" selection.

The Dreadknight at it's base is a little cheap for what it does, I don't think it's too bad after kit. It also has the fewest wounds of any of the MC's in question.

The Wraithknight has stats that, until it was released, were solidly and without question reserved for Apocalypse Gargantuan Creatures. The only saving grace is that it lacks an invul save and pays out the nose to get one. If they made this a Lord of War, it'd be less egregious.

Martel732 wrote:

"Dreadknight is the best melee "

Wrong edition for me to worry about that.

For something that can get stuck in, almost anywhere on the board, on turn 2 very reliably, I'm not seeing anything bad about its 7E melee capabilities.

A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

This is slightly misleading.

The whole army will not be deep striking. It'll be half of the force plus the two dreadknights.
Most armies will have dramatically more firepower then this, even after casualties. Their ability to inflict wounds on the GK and the dreadknights is a lot easier then it is to inflict wounds on a riptide.

Recall, melee being dead has been around since 7th dropped.
I think SW helped bring it back with the TWC. It gave an idea of what worked. Fast, hard hitting, tough units with little to no firepower to speak of that need to touch you.
I think BA told us what didn't work. Hordes of cheap guys that can move quickly but have decent shooting options. In that scenario, I'd rather shoot and melee if I can, but mostly just shoot.

Necrons have brought melee back with wraiths and flayed ones. They are amazing, tough, fast for different reasons, and pump out many attacks that are excellent at destroying troops.
But it is not GK that have made people fear melee. That is very telling, imo.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

"You REALLY should be worried about assault!"

No, I'm really not. That means all those units are putting themselves in the range of plasma. melta, and Sternguard special ammo and saving me the trouble. Not to mention they are setting themselves up to take BA assaults in the face. The Riptide is constantly dodging those ranges and nuking me off the table in the process. This isn't even a close comparison to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

Yeah, but I can hurt Wraithknights with lowly krak missiles. I'd rank the Wraith knight the weakest of the three because of its save.

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

"You REALLY should be worried about assault!"

No, I'm really not. That means all those units are putting themselves in the range of plasma. melta, and Sternguard special ammo and saving me the trouble.

And they're supposed to avoid that entirely...how? And in which edition were they not vulnerable to that?

Not to mention they are setting themselves up to take BA assaults in the face.

Aside from this being a relatively unique set of circumstances, If BA's want to charge a Dreadknight, with anything less than Terminators or an absurdly over-kitted Death Company unit, it's probably not going to end well for them.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

"You REALLY should be worried about assault!"

No, I'm really not. That means all those units are putting themselves in the range of plasma. melta, and Sternguard special ammo and saving me the trouble.

And they're supposed to avoid that entirely...how? And in which edition were they not vulnerable to that?

Not to mention they are setting themselves up to take BA assaults in the face.

Aside from this being a relatively unique set of circumstances, If BA's want to charge a Dreadknight, with anything less than Terminators or an absurdly over-kitted Death Company unit, it's probably not going to end well for them.

Riptides are immune to all weapons that can't reach them.

I was talking about the rest of the grey knight units that were pointed out. The whole "entire army deep striking" part. Shoot the Dread knights, assault the power armor losers.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
A 30" shunt from 2 of them turn one, with the rest of the army deepstriking starting turn one? You REALLY should be worried about assault!
Wraithknight, due to the fact that(without assistance) the other two have trouble hurting it. Wraithknight is substantially more expensive, so that makes sense.
Edit: ninjad

"You REALLY should be worried about assault!"

No, I'm really not. That means all those units are putting themselves in the range of plasma. melta, and Sternguard special ammo and saving me the trouble.

And they're supposed to avoid that entirely...how? And in which edition were they not vulnerable to that?

Not to mention they are setting themselves up to take BA assaults in the face.

Aside from this being a relatively unique set of circumstances, If BA's want to charge a Dreadknight, with anything less than Terminators or an absurdly over-kitted Death Company unit, it's probably not going to end well for them.

Riptides are immune to all weapons that can't reach them.

I was talking about the rest of the grey knight units that were pointed out. The whole "entire army deep striking" part. Shoot the Dread knights, assault the power armor losers.

except most GKs these days aren't IN power armor. GKs are useally running terminator heavy lists.

Okay. I can assault them, too. Depending on their loadout, they have less durability/pt anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. I can assault them, too. Depending on their loadout, they have less durability/pt anyway.

Which is exactly why I think its such a joke that these are marines who fight Daemons regularly, counter-attack needs to be given more freely.

It's amusing to me that most GK power builds and power schemes have absolutely nothing to do with demons. I fought those cheeseballs a lot in 5th. I know how they roll.

Purifier Builds I'm guessing?

Them and interceptors and sometimes laser monkeys. There were REALLY popular at the end of 5th. I got so sick of them. Them and the damn SW. SW: "LULZ look at my grey hunters embarrass all other power armor units IN THE GAME. What? You mad, bro?"

But for the original post: one of these units can lay waste to entire units from 60". The other two can not. Easy decision.

Martel732 wrote:
It's amusing to me that most GK power builds and power schemes have absolutely nothing to do with demons. I fought those cheeseballs a lot in 5th. I know how they roll.

5th edition was 2 editions and 1 codex ago Martel. GKs have been changed a fair bit, hell a lot of the cheese from 5th edition is no longer the case. dreadnought riflemen went from being autotakes to "over costed"

BrianDavion wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's amusing to me that most GK power builds and power schemes have absolutely nothing to do with demons. I fought those cheeseballs a lot in 5th. I know how they roll.

5th edition was 2 editions and 1 codex ago Martel. GKs have been changed a fair bit, hell a lot of the cheese from 5th edition is no longer the case. dreadnought riflemen went from being autotakes to "over costed"

They've still got their shunting and dominant mid-range firepower. They are certainly more fair now, I'd say. I'm still burned out on them. I played the crap out of 5th, lol. But hell, I still haven't forgotten CSM from 2nd. To this day, I don't take my foot off the gas against CSM. Tabling is my goal against them

True but besides the DK the only shunt we got is a 25 point model that has the stats of a 14 point model... the GK codex needs another overhaul...

 Quickjager wrote:
True but besides the DK the only shunt we got is a 25 point model that has the stats of a 14 point model... the GK codex needs another overhaul...

Welcome to BA-town. Population: those still getting their heads kicked in by the power codices.

 Quickjager wrote:
True but besides the DK the only shunt we got is a 25 point model that has the stats of a 14 point model... the GK codex needs another overhaul...

eh Interceptors aren't that bad. proably the most useless GKPA right now is purgation squads

My first knee-jerk reaction is the wraithknight, and it most definitely is the most bang-for-buck of the 3.

But the burst cannon skyfire tide is definitely more competitive. The tactical flexibility it provides is amazing.

I sometimes question how Xeno generals play their lists. Lots of people in 5th did mass deep strike with different lists. I called "Decent of Angels" lists "Dead on Arrival" instead. That turn of just standing there is a real killer. Deep strike to me just seems like a real fast way to get your units massacred much of the time.

Martel732 wrote:
I sometimes question how Xeno generals play their lists. Lots of people in 5th did mass deep strike with different lists. I called "Decent of Angels" lists "Dead on Arrival" instead. That turn of just standing there is a real killer. Deep strike to me just seems like a real fast way to get your units massacred much of the time.

It's that alpha strike, but then it's crap if you don't know where to put them or when to realise not to deep strike instead.

Dreadknights are too expensive and too fragile to be broken in any meaningful sense. They're good, but you pay for what you get and it will die very quickly if you're not careful.

Riptides are cheaper, with a similar level of firepower at range, a better invuln and an extra wound. They're underpriced, but not terribly so. If they were 4 wounds and the overcharge options were tweaked, they'd be fine.

Wraithknights are mainly just too hard to kill for a lot of armies for the points, and perfectly counter what wave serpents can't handle. They could be 300pts and still be solid.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are broken as hell with how hard it is to hurt them. The base chassis needs to cost more.

"Dreadknight is the best melee "

Wrong edition for me to worry about that.

Totally false, the Riptide is not "broken as hell", and according to your logic it means the Dreadknight is because they are the same exact Toughness and have the same exact save. The base chasis is perfectly costed for what you get as the Dreadknight is 50pts. cheaper for 1 less wound, yes the Riptide "potentially" can get a better Ward save but the fact it fails 1/3 of the time with no saves hurts it a lot. The only thing that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator points cost, boost it up to around 20pts. and call it good. Also Dreadknights unlike most units ignore the fallbacks of melee due to the fact that it can literally be almost anywhere on the board an assaulting you turn 2 on top of being able to do a ton of damage with shooting with a potential instant death Psilencer and Torrent flamer.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are broken as hell with how hard it is to hurt them. The base chassis needs to cost more.

"Dreadknight is the best melee "

Wrong edition for me to worry about that.

Totally false, the Riptide is not "broken as hell", and according to your logic it means the Dreadknight is because they are the same exact Toughness and have the same exact save. The base chasis is perfectly costed for what you get as the Dreadknight is 50pts. cheaper for 1 less wound! Also Dreadknights unlike most units ignore the fallbacks of melee due to the fact that it can literally be almost anywhere on the board an assaulting you turn 2 on top of being able to do a ton of damage with shooting, I mean instant death Psilencer?! Sorry mate going to have to come up with a more constructive argument then that.

Do you play Tyranids? Because that is quite likely the only matchup where a psilencer is going to be good, the psilencer without force being activated is S4 AP-, not impressive a slightly stronger lasgun though there IS 12 shots. In a army where S4 is standard most will pass on it so we can actually crack some tanks open with S7, or take the flamer for hordes. If the psilencer were S5 I promise you, it would be taken far more often because at that level it actually has the chance to hurt more common vehicles.

Helbrute > All

 Quickjager wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are broken as hell with how hard it is to hurt them. The base chassis needs to cost more.

"Dreadknight is the best melee "

Wrong edition for me to worry about that.

Totally false, the Riptide is not "broken as hell", and according to your logic it means the Dreadknight is because they are the same exact Toughness and have the same exact save. The base chasis is perfectly costed for what you get as the Dreadknight is 50pts. cheaper for 1 less wound! Also Dreadknights unlike most units ignore the fallbacks of melee due to the fact that it can literally be almost anywhere on the board an assaulting you turn 2 on top of being able to do a ton of damage with shooting, I mean instant death Psilencer?! Sorry mate going to have to come up with a more constructive argument then that.

Do you play Tyranids? Because that is quite likely the only matchup where a psilencer is going to be good, the psilencer without force being activated is S4 AP-, not impressive a slightly stronger lasgun though there IS 12 shots. In a army where S4 is standard most will pass on it so we can actually crack some tanks open with S7, or take the flamer for hordes. If the psilencer were S5 I promise you, it would be taken far more often because at that level it actually has the chance to hurt more common vehicles.

the only thing the psilencer is really a big threat too is a high HP, lowish to medium toughness, not too high AC MC. greater deamons and the like I suppose.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are broken as hell with how hard it is to hurt them. The base chassis needs to cost more.

"Dreadknight is the best melee "

Wrong edition for me to worry about that.

Totally false, the Riptide is not "broken as hell", and according to your logic it means the Dreadknight is because they are the same exact Toughness and have the same exact save. The base chasis is perfectly costed for what you get as the Dreadknight is 50pts. cheaper for 1 less wound, yes the Riptide "potentially" can get a better Ward save but the fact it fails 1/3 of the time with no saves hurts it a lot. The only thing that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator points cost, boost it up to around 20pts. and call it good. Also Dreadknights unlike most units ignore the fallbacks of melee due to the fact that it can literally be almost anywhere on the board an assaulting you turn 2 on top of being able to do a ton of damage with shooting with a potential instant death Psilencer and Torrent flamer.

The Riptide usually has T6 2+/3++ FNP for saves. That's crazy. Just crazy. Dreadknights have a 5++ . Maybe they can make it 4++ That's a lot less crazy. If you can't tell the difference between 3++/FNP and 4++, I don't know what to say. Dreadknights can't assault after shunting. That's a very, very long turn for there to stand there and fire a couple of guns I don't care about.

Martel732 wrote:
The Riptide usually has T6 2+/3++ FNP for saves. That's crazy. Just crazy. Dreadknights have a 5++ . Maybe they can make it 4++ That's a lot less crazy. If you can't tell the difference between 3++/FNP and 4++, I don't know what to say. Dreadknights can't assault after shunting. That's a very, very long turn for there to stand there and fire a couple of guns I don't care about.

You can keep bringing this up and I will keep correcting you. The 3+ is not an automatic thing, failing 1/3 of the time is not a great statistic and the FNP is an expensive upgrade that you are forgoing other things for. I can tell the difference just fine thank you very much just as I can tell your just a typical Tau hater, if its not IoM it cant be good is basically what I have gathered from you in this and other threads past and present. And maybe you don't care about the guns but good Grey Knight players utilize them to great affect with the rest of their army, and if they are putting them in a bad position when they shunt then that is just poor tactics. If I remember correctly in a thread awhile ago where you were stating the same thing it came to light that you were playing Blood Angles and were not using an optimized list. Maybe take the advice we gave you back then instead of making over the top claims on how to fix a MC that needs a few tweaks at best.

Define "expensive" on a T6 W5 model.

" Maybe take the advice we gave you back then"

What exactly is an "optimized" BA list? Even BA players can't decide what that is. I don't seem to remember any list advice, either.

And get it right. I'm not a Tau hater. I'm a Riptide hater.

66% is over half of the time, and so it is fair to say that the Riptide *usually* has 2+/3++ and FNP. Couple that with the fact that it never gets close to anything, and it's basically invincible. Even BA can't catch it. I've tried.

"but good Grey Knight players utilize them to great affect with the rest of their army,"

The math prevents them from having a "great effect". They just aren't that potent of weaponry. At least, not compared to Riptide or Wraithknight.

", if its not IoM it cant be good"

No, I hate gravstars and the SW, too.

Martel732 wrote:


66% is over half of the time, and so it is fair to say that the Riptide *usually* has 2+/3++ and FNP. Couple that with the fact that it never gets close to anything, and it's basically invincible. Even BA can't catch it. I've tried.

And the other 33% of the time it gets an automatic wound (which he can FnP if he bought the upgrade instead of something more useful).

Over a 6 round game, a Riptide that uses Nova every round is left with qn effective 3 wounds, or 3.66 if he has FnP.

But FNP can negate that wound though. Regardless whether you took it, if you plan to rely on the Nova Shield, the FNP is a good choice. Besides, what would you be taking instead?

"with qn effective 3 wounds, or 3.66 if he has FnP."

Small consolation when all my units are dead. Complaints about Riptides wounding themselves is like an Ork player from 2nd ed complaining that he actually has to expend his pulsa rokkits in order to autowin against 3/4 of the lists in that edition. Ritpides are quite that bad, but that's what they remind me of.

Martel732 wrote:
"with qn effective 3 wounds, or 3.66 if he has FnP."

Small consolation when all my units are dead. Complaints about Riptides wounding themselves is like an Ork player from 2nd ed complaining that he actually has to expend his pulsa rokkits in order to autowin against 3/4 of the lists in that edition. Ritpides are quite that bad, but that's what they remind me of.

Has it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe the BA codex, or at least your list, is sub par and bringing the Riptide down to its level will also make it sub par?

 gmaleron wrote:
If I remember correctly in a thread awhile ago where you were stating the same thing it came to light that you were playing Blood Angles and were not using an optimized list. Maybe take the advice we gave you back then instead of making over the top claims on how to fix a MC that needs a few tweaks at best.

That's not all, either. You know why he hates armies like Tau with a passion? Because his local meta plays mostly shooting armies like Tau and refuses to play with meaningful terrain on the board. So he's basically being forced to play on Planet Bowling Ball against one of the deadliest shooting armies in the game and has literally nowhere to hide and no cover to take advantage of.

He's apparently given up trying to get the other players to listen to reason, either that or can't really form a convincing argument for why there needs to be more terrain on the table, and has instead decided to spend his time and energy loudly complaining about how inherently broken Tau are online in the hopes that GW happens to notice (or care) and nerfs Tau into the ground, making them unplayable for literally everyone else in the world with a Tau army but making it so that he has a chance on a table with no cover and nothing blocking LOS.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
If I remember correctly in a thread awhile ago where you were stating the same thing it came to light that you were playing Blood Angles and were not using an optimized list. Maybe take the advice we gave you back then instead of making over the top claims on how to fix a MC that needs a few tweaks at best.

That's not all, either. You know why he hates armies like Tau with a passion? Because his local meta plays mostly shooting armies like Tau and refuses to play with meaningful terrain on the board. So he's basically being forced to play on Planet Bowling Ball against one of the deadliest shooting armies in the game and has literally nowhere to hide and no cover to take advantage of.

He's apparently given up trying to get the other players to listen to reason, either that or can't really form a convincing argument for why there needs to be more terrain on the table, and has instead decided to spend his time and energy loudly complaining about how inherently broken Tau are online in the hopes that GW happens to notice (or care) and nerfs Tau into the ground, making them unplayable for literally everyone else in the world with a Tau army but making it so that he has a chance on a table with no cover and nothing blocking LOS.

Other players in this, and other threads, have posted reasons why the Riptide is the strongest out of the three.

Heck, in this thread, it seems that most posters lean towards the riptide being the strongest as well.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But FNP can negate that wound though. Regardless whether you took it, if you plan to rely on the Nova Shield, the FNP is a good choice. Besides, what would you be taking instead?

FnP will negate each wound 1/3 of the time, meaning on average you take 1.33 wounds instead of 2.

I run 2 Riptides in my list in a quite competitive meta. At furst I used an IA one with EWO and FnP and a HBC one with VT and FnP. It didn't work badly at all, but among the first pieces of advice everyone gave mevwas 'lose the HBC and the FnP, field 2 IAs with EWO and VT'.

The motivation behind this was:
- Nobody will shoot your Riptides first. Killing the markeright support and the Crisis/ Broadsides requires less resources than killing 2-3 Riptides and still removes a large chunk of firepower. By the tome it's down to the Riptides, only rarely will the game be close enough for FnP to make a difference.
-IA Riptides don't really need to use Nova Charge, as it gives them little extra.(+1 S and Ordnance is hardly worth it).

This thread topic again.... *Groan*

So lets start here.

The Riptide gets the most hate in every thread... therefore to at least an extent it is the most broken.
Logic being: if everyone is saying the same things consistently its probably got some truth to it.

That being said: I think it comes in for the most flack because it was the first 'big model' of the line in the first power codex of the edition for an army following 2 lacklustre releases.

I think the Riptide is considered the best for a few reasons:
72" range - means it doesn't need to put itself into harms range
AP2 - scares everyone coupled with
S7-8 - potential instant death
Large blast - negates BS a bit (people seem to forget/ignore gets hot is another chance to miss)
2+ save - makes most weapons that can effectively hurt it limited at range
5++ save - makes it more immune to ranged weapons that can
T6 - makes it harder for small arms fire to hurt it
2 weapons - although not a massive issue mostly
immune to blind and night based cover saves
Can get a 3++ or other (lets be honest mostly it's 3++)
Can shoot at deep strikers with a blast when they are clustered.
Can 'run away' in assult phase

It's easy to see why people dislike it.

That being said of the options it isn't the most powerful or useful in a lot of ways

The WK is the winner for me.

Also to the poster who said its an auto-include to have a riptide: i have 1 thing to say about that, "No duh"
Of course it is an auto include, it's the only unit in the army with T above 4 and one of only 2 units with a 2+ save making it effectively the only unit we can rely on to survive.

Tau dont have the luxuries of survivability in masses.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
If I remember correctly in a thread awhile ago where you were stating the same thing it came to light that you were playing Blood Angles and were not using an optimized list. Maybe take the advice we gave you back then instead of making over the top claims on how to fix a MC that needs a few tweaks at best.

That's not all, either. You know why he hates armies like Tau with a passion? Because his local meta plays mostly shooting armies like Tau and refuses to play with meaningful terrain on the board. So he's basically being forced to play on Planet Bowling Ball against one of the deadliest shooting armies in the game and has literally nowhere to hide and no cover to take advantage of.

He's apparently given up trying to get the other players to listen to reason, either that or can't really form a convincing argument for why there needs to be more terrain on the table, and has instead decided to spend his time and energy loudly complaining about how inherently broken Tau are online in the hopes that GW happens to notice (or care) and nerfs Tau into the ground, making them unplayable for literally everyone else in the world with a Tau army but making it so that he has a chance on a table with no cover and nothing blocking LOS.

LOS blocking terrain might make the Riptides even harder to kill though, if they exploit it correctly. It would make the non-jet pack stuff less potent, though. The other players know what LOS blocking terrain does. They just collectively don't want it. I can't make a convincing argument when they already understand the issue at hand. And I have tons and tons of cover. Too bad the Tau ignore it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"with qn effective 3 wounds, or 3.66 if he has FnP."

Small consolation when all my units are dead. Complaints about Riptides wounding themselves is like an Ork player from 2nd ed complaining that he actually has to expend his pulsa rokkits in order to autowin against 3/4 of the lists in that edition. Ritpides are quite that bad, but that's what they remind me of.

Has it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe the BA codex, or at least your list, is sub par and bringing the Riptide down to its level will also make it sub par?

Yes, except that I'm not the only one saying this.

Just need point tweaks.
Dreadknights are costed correctly - fully kitted.
Riptides cost to little fully kitted.
Wraithknights come stock ready to murder everything scary in the game - maybe need to cost a little more.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just need point tweaks.
Dreadknights are costed correctly - fully kitted.
Riptides cost to little fully kitted.
Wraithknights come stock ready to murder everything scary in the game - maybe need to cost a little more.

LIES!

All are too cheap.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just need point tweaks.
Dreadknights are costed correctly - fully kitted.
Riptides cost to little fully kitted.
Wraithknights come stock ready to murder everything scary in the game - maybe need to cost a little more.

True, but the 3+ save is kinda weak.

Martel732 wrote:

Yes, except that I'm not the only one saying this.

Except you're one of the few who stubbornly refuses to acknowledge that the issues with IA Riptides are mostly issues with the IA, and not with the Riptide chassis.

Even if you nerfed the chassis to T1, 1W no armor save, as lomg as the IA profile remains the same it's still going to be killing marines on foot on open boards with impunity.

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Yes, except that I'm not the only one saying this.

Except you're one of the few who stubbornly refuses to acknowledge that the issues with IA Riptides are mostly issues with the IA, and not with the Riptide chassis.

Even if you nerfed the chassis to T1, 1W no armor save, as lomg as the IA profile remains the same it's still going to be killing marines on foot on open boards with impunity.

Mostly, but not completely. The base chasis is not fine, to me. Too mobile, too many wounds, with base access to 3++. Maybe if the option to NOVA charge cost extra I'd be fine with it. As it stands, I don't know what fair price for an immortal IA is. Because it is effectively immortal because of the ability to concentrate enough fire to destroy a Riptide with a normal list.

I had a tau army, and the riptide is a power piece. Broken? No, but very point efficient. It'll dance around taking objectives and dishing out large blast.

I also use GKs, and I like the dreadknight. Its a fun model that gets in the opponents face. But it will go down easy to weight of fire. Which happens once your up close. Well balanced, being its gonna be close to 200 pts kitted out.

Never played wraightknights, but they look sweet, and can put out damage, They definitely will fall to low ap weapons though.

So my vote goes to riptide as all around beast.

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Yes, except that I'm not the only one saying this.

Except you're one of the few who stubbornly refuses to acknowledge that the issues with IA Riptides are mostly issues with the IA, and not with the Riptide chassis.

Even if you nerfed the chassis to T1, 1W no armor save, as lomg as the IA profile remains the same it's still going to be killing marines on foot on open boards with impunity.

Mostly, but not completely. The base chasis is not fine, to me. Too mobile, too many wounds, with base access to 3++. Maybe if the option to NOVA charge cost extra I'd be fine with it. As it stands, I don't know what fair price for an immortal IA is. Because it is effectively immortal because of the ability to concentrate enough fire to destroy a Riptide with a normal list.

Just to establish a baseline, what exactly do you understand by 'normal list'?

Good question. There's a schism in normal, I suppose.

There's list with these things:

Gravstars
One *million* scatterlasers
Smashfether
Wraiths, now
2++ rerollable
Other ways of getting large amounts of high STR shooting

Then there's lists without those things. You really can't engage Riptides with these things:

Only a few scatterlasers
Lascannons, in the quantity you find in a TAC list
Autocannons, in the quantity you find in a TAC list
Short range AP 2 weapons
Assault elements

I think GW just underestimates how annoying MCs are in general to deal with, especially with those they gave 2+ saves.

Akiasura wrote:

Other players in this, and other threads, have posted reasons why the Riptide is the strongest out of the three.

Heck, in this thread, it seems that most posters lean towards the riptide being the strongest as well.

Except it isn't just about the riptide. It never is. Nerfing the riptide won't change a damn thing, people will still argue Tau as a whole are inherently overpowered and be looking for more and more things to nerf.

The riptide is just the one thing in the book that people hate the most, so it's the one that gets talked about most often. If it weren't in the book then people would be complaining just as hard about crisis suits and JSJ, markerlights, S5 pulse rifles, etc.

Martel732 wrote:
And I have tons and tons of cover. Too bad the Tau ignore it.

Which is a problem with 6th/7th more than Tau, Ignores Cover is way too prevalent. That said, as long as it's in the game then Tau should have access to it, being one of the few dedicated shooting armies. Markerlights being able to grant it with the ease that they do is something that should probably be fixed. Even if they did that though people would still complain that we have it at all, because apparently Tau shooting isn't supposed to actually do anything except give the Tau player an excuse to roll pointless dice before the entire enemy army crosses the table and wipes their army out in a melee orgy they can't do anything about.

As for your comments about LOS, personally I don't think the riptide should be able to JSJ anyway. It's way too big for that, makes much more sense on the smaller, "nimbler" suits but not that one. Like I've said before, I won't argue that the riptide doesn't need some "adjusting" but it's just one of many things that people bitch about in regards to Tau. People have always bitched about them, even with crap for rules, and I would bet money that fixing the riptide wouldn't change a damn thing, either. Everyone else would just find something else to complain about and there would be thread after thread about that until it was nerfed/removed, then we'd just continue going down the list of "Things Tau Have That Marines Don't" until there's nothing left, or until there's no Tau left, whichever comes first.

As for the thread itself, the riptide is most likely the worst of the three, but really they all need to be adjusted in some way. Personally I wouldn't mind just seeing the dreadknight removed from the game, it's a stupid concept with a stupid-looking model, like someone saw the third Matrix movie looong after it came out and thought that idea was just too cool not to have in 40k, and then introduced it in the army where it possibly makes the least sense. Come to think of it they all have ugly models, really. Never mind, I say just get rid of them all and give wraithlords and dreadnoughts or whatever a buff instead, problem solved.

"The riptide is just the one thing in the book that people hate the most, so it's the one that gets talked about most often. If it weren't in the book then people would be complaining just as hard about crisis suits and JSJ, markerlights, S5 pulse rifles, etc"

Those other things don't bother me at all. In fact, the S5 pulse rifle is a great hedge against other units I consider over powered.

In fact, I'd like to see many Tau units buffed to where it's actually a real decision on what to bring. Stealth suits should be much better for example. Stealth suits, for example, should have a rule that lets them resist ignore cover.

I'm not opposed to strong options for any list. I oppose auto-takes in any list.

Martel732 wrote:
Good question. There's a schism in normal, I suppose.

There's list with these things:

Gravstars
One *million* scatterlasers
Smashfether
Wraiths, now
2++ rerollable
Other ways of getting large amounts of high STR shooting

Then there's lists without those things. You really can't engage Riptides with these things:

Only a few scatterlasers
Lascannons, in the quantity you find in a TAC list
Autocannons, in the quantity you find in a TAC list
Short range AP 2 weapons
Assault elements

I think GW just underestimates how annoying MCs are in general to deal with, especially with those they gave 2+ saves.

If a TAC list can't effectively take on MCs then it's not really a take ALL comers list, is it?

Maybe it's time to accept that the old TAC lists no longer work and adapt your list to the reality of the game rather than expect the game to adapt to your list? Not taking about Riptides specifically, but tough MCs are here to stay for the foreseeable future.

I can kill Wraithknights and Dreadknights just fine. The effective range/save/wound math works out. The Riptide is an outlier in terms of soaking firepower at its effective range.

So here's the MCs I CAN take on with any of my lists:

Dreadknight
Wraithknight
Wraithlord
Carnifex
Ground Tyrant
The DE thingie
Ground demon princes
Ground greater demons

Throw in dual Stormraven and I can add:

Any flying MC, except penta-Flyrant, which needs triple Stormraven


There is only one thing missing from the list because of its specific mode of operation and stat combination: Riptide.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Other players in this, and other threads, have posted reasons why the Riptide is the strongest out of the three.

Heck, in this thread, it seems that most posters lean towards the riptide being the strongest as well.

Except it isn't just about the riptide. It never is. Nerfing the riptide won't change a damn thing, people will still argue Tau as a whole are inherently overpowered and be looking for more and more things to nerf.

The riptide is just the one thing in the book that people hate the most, so it's the one that gets talked about most often. If it weren't in the book then people would be complaining just as hard about crisis suits and JSJ, markerlights, S5 pulse rifles, etc.

The only thing I ever see people having an issue with in regards to Tau are;
Riptides
Markerlights ignoring cover after just one light (-2 per light seems fair).

Occasionally I see people upset about the fact that markerlights work on snap shots. It makes overwatch really strong, and it makes Tau the second strongest army in the game when it comes to anti-air. Tau have always had good crisis suits, and Str 5 main weapons, and people have rarely complained about them in mass.

I own a Tau army, though not a riptide. It's way too strong. Markerlights allowing ignore cover on any weapon is also too strong. Most armies are very limited on what guns have it (outside of grav weapons...should have never been allowed on certain platforms), but Tau have it on every single weapon they want.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And I have tons and tons of cover. Too bad the Tau ignore it.

Which is a problem with 6th/7th more than Tau, Ignores Cover is way too prevalent. That said, as long as it's in the game then Tau should have access to it, being one of the few dedicated shooting armies. Markerlights being able to grant it with the ease that they do is something that should probably be fixed. Even if they did that though people would still complain that we have it at all, because apparently Tau shooting isn't supposed to actually do anything except give the Tau player an excuse to roll pointless dice before the entire enemy army crosses the table and wipes their army out in a melee orgy they can't do anything about.

Nobody is saying that Tau should sit there and get assaulted. Even with those things removed, Tau would still be a strong dex, just not up there with the best. The reason that Tau get a lot of hate is they are supposed to be a mobile short range firepower list with mini gundams providing heavy weapons and alien allies providing melee support.
They are instead a gunline army that, with the exception of a few units, just sit there and target units. This is chiefly due to the way markerlights and riptides work. It's very annoying to see a player just sit there, point at a unit, delete it, and move on to the next. People never enjoy a campy playstyle, in any game (look at SSB campy players if you want to see true hatred, or old school Street fighter Guile playstyle).

 Sidstyler wrote:

As for your comments about LOS, personally I don't think the riptide should be able to JSJ anyway. It's way too big for that, makes much more sense on the smaller, "nimbler" suits but not that one. Like I've said before, I won't argue that the riptide doesn't need some "adjusting" but it's just one of many things that people bitch about in regards to Tau. People have always bitched about them, even with crap for rules, and I would bet money that fixing the riptide wouldn't change a damn thing, either. Everyone else would just find something else to complain about and there would be thread after thread about that until it was nerfed/removed, then we'd just continue going down the list of "Things Tau Have That Marines Don't" until there's nothing left, or until there's no Tau left, whichever comes first.

Outside of rules, the only thing I think people complain about is the look and fluff for Tau. Personally, I like the look a lot, and think they are the darkest faction out there, so I love them fluff wise.
That side, their playstyle nowadays is boring to watch and play against. It's a valid complaint.

 Sidstyler wrote:

As for the thread itself, the riptide is most likely the worst of the three, but really they all need to be adjusted in some way. Personally I wouldn't mind just seeing the dreadknight removed from the game, it's a stupid concept with a stupid-looking model, like someone saw the third Matrix movie looong after it came out and thought that idea was just too cool not to have in 40k, and then introduced it in the army where it possibly makes the least sense. Come to think of it they all have ugly models, really. Never mind, I say just get rid of them all and give wraithlords and dreadnoughts or whatever a buff instead, problem solved.

I agree with this. Dreadnoughts have been lame forever, let's buff them and lords, along with brutes, and remove the new MC walkers.

"Take all comers" and "balanced", how funny does that sound, especially when it means "spam the best units".

It is clear that there is something wrong with units such as Riptide and Wraithknight, when are in every list. No one complains about facing a list with three dreadnoughts, can anyone guess why?

I acquired Tau, with 3 Riptides, to become That Guy. And they are only good because of the Markerlights? Fine, Tau got plenty of those to go around. You shouldn't look at the units in a vacuum, though.

Naw wrote:
"Take all comers" and "balanced", how funny does that sound, especially when it means "spam the best units".

It is clear that there is something wrong with units such as Riptide and Wraithknight, when are in every list. No one complains about facing a list with three dreadnoughts, can anyone guess why?

I acquired Tau, with 3 Riptides, to become That Guy. And they are only good because of the Markerlights? Fine, Tau got plenty of those to go around. You shouldn't look at the units in a vacuum, though.

Not sure what you're trying to say here.
Marker lights make riptides really good or riptides are in fact only good with markers?

Agree with you about no vacuum though.

Naw wrote:


I acquired Tau, with 3 Riptides, to become That Guy. And they are only good because of the Markerlights? Fine, Tau got plenty of those to go around. You shouldn't look at the units in a vacuum, though.

I can play up to 5 tides including a 109 in a 2k game. I never use marker lights. They work out just fine.

The Riptide is only broken when it has FNP combined with the nova shield and pathfinders.

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.

Enough Plasma, Grav, or a close combat unit with jump pack and AP2 weapon will take it down easily. If you can't take it down go for the markerlights and it'll miss half the time.

Wraithknight is worse in my opinion, At least S4 can wound a Riptide.

Akiasura wrote:

Markerlights ignoring cover after just one light (-2 per light seems fair).

It's Ignore cover for 2 counters.

Akiasura wrote:
The reason that Tau get a lot of hate is they are supposed to be a mobile short range firepower list with mini gundams providing heavy weapons and alien allies providing melee support.

According to what? In most pieces of fluff one of the biggest Tau advantages are range and mobility.

Akiasura wrote:
They are instead a gunline army that, with the exception of a few units, just sit there and target units. This is chiefly due to the way markerlights and riptides work. It's very annoying to see a player just sit there, point at a unit, delete it, and move on to the next. People never enjoy a campy playstyle, in any game (look at SSB campy players if you want to see true hatred, or old school Street fighter Guile playstyle).

Agreed 100%. Tau get more flak than many other stronger armies (like Daemons, old Necrons or SM) just because for many armies it's just no fun to play against.

Akiasura wrote:
I agree with this. Dreadnoughts have been lame forever, let's buff them and lords, along with brutes, and remove the new MC walkers.

Honestly I've never understood the need for MCs. Why not just have infantry and vehicles and be done with it? I really fail to see what couldn't have been solved by classifying a unit as either of them.

Taffy17 wrote:

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.
.

It's 1 wound every 3 turns, you need 3+ to Nova.

Yeah, I was meaning with FNP, so about 1 every 5/6 turns.

Taffy17 wrote:
The Riptide is only broken when it has FNP combined with the nova shield and pathfinders.

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.

Enough Plasma, Grav, or a close combat unit with jump pack and AP2 weapon will take it down easily. If you can't take it down go for the markerlights and it'll miss half the time.

Wraithknight is worse in my opinion, At least S4 can wound a Riptide.

It takes roughly 73 bolter at bs 4 shots to wound a riptide. I would consider that to be impervious to such firepower in game terms.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
The Riptide is only broken when it has FNP combined with the nova shield and pathfinders.

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.

Enough Plasma, Grav, or a close combat unit with jump pack and AP2 weapon will take it down easily. If you can't take it down go for the markerlights and it'll miss half the time.

Wraithknight is worse in my opinion, At least S4 can wound a Riptide.

It takes roughly 73 bolter at bs 4 shots to wound a riptide. I would consider that to be impervious to such firepower in game terms.

By that token surely the wraithknight is harder. It's impossible to wound with any weapon under S5. All whilst it jumps at you with great speed.

They are both impervious to bolter fire; one totally and the other in effect. That is also assuming that the Riptide ever gets within bolter range.

You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

That's something that I've always wondered; how do they always stay out of range :L

SGTPozy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

That's something that I've always wondered; how do they always stay out of range :L

I'm a greyknight - everything is out of range until I alpha strike everything into your face. In the case I wasn't doing this I wouldnt have a chance vs riptides.

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

The units that deign to try to get within range get shot off the board. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat until all Astartes are dead. And it's not like getting a single unit within range cuts it, either.

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

That's something that I've always wondered; how do they always stay out of range :L

I'm a greyknight - everything is out of range until I alpha strike everything into your face. In the case I wasn't doing this I wouldnt have a chance vs riptides.

Yes, but Grey Knights are ONE army, what I meant was all armies. Yeah, I get that you have short-range guns but most armies have longer-range guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
You guys must be playing on super wide board for the Riptide to be always out of range...

The units that deign to try to get within range get shot off the board. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat until all Astartes are dead. And it's not like getting a single unit within range cuts it, either.

Marines are half of the armies but the other half are fine at it (anyway, you guys have your ridiculously cheap drop pods to get close).

There are two problems with drop pods.

The Tau player can arrange their units in such a manner to not allow drops against Riptides. Or, alternatively, make sure that whatever does drop in only fires once, and then dies. One volley is not enough to drop a Riptide.

The other problem with drop pods is that the units are foot after the drop pod comes down. Given the JSJ in the Tau army, many of their elements, including Riptides, can literally just run away, and the marines have no recourse.

I don't consider drop pods undercosted at all, given that they are one use transports and the units coming from them can't assault. That gives the opponent a full round to shoot apart and/or spoiling assault the contents of the pods. Drop pods also piecemeal your list unless you pay to get extra empty pods. I consider podded units a pretty big gamble, actually.

As for the long range weapons, I've seen AM lists that lack enough AP 2 shots to give Riptides a worry. I've seen DE loose so much ranged AP 2 so quickly that they were helpless before the Riptides as well. It's not just a marine problem. Ranged AP 2 is expensive, and usually single shot. One needs huge volumes of fire to reliably kill even a single Riptide at range. It's really quite untenable for most non-marine lists as well.

Any army can do that first point to protect their best units... Why wouldn't you do that?

Yes, one volley of plasma fire may not be enough... But two is more than enough and since they don't mishap then it is very 'point and click'.

Yes, but where are they running to? If they are running away from the drop pods then they are running towards the rest if the army.

So 35 points for an AV 12 12 12 open opped vehicle that deep strikes turn one and does not mishap is correctly priced? It should cost 70 points minimum because of how gimmicky it is (Tyranids pay 75 points for their version).

7th is a shooty edition so you put shooty units inside like Sternguard. While you cannot assault you can still shoot and why are you surprised that they cannot charge? Others cannot assault from deep strike so why should you be able to. Oh right, its because you're Space Marines.

SGTPozy wrote:
Any army can do that first point to protect their best units... Why wouldn't you do that?

Yes, one volley of plasma fire may not be enough... But two is more than enough and since they don't mishap then it is very 'point and click'.

Yes, but where are they running to? If they are running away from the drop pods then they are running towards the rest if the army.

So 35 points for an AV 12 12 12 open opped vehicle that deep strikes turn one and does not mishap is correctly priced? It should cost 70 points minimum because of how gimmicky it is (Tyranids pay 75 points for their version).

7th is a shooty edition so you put shooty units inside like Sternguard. While you cannot assault you can still shoot and why are you surprised that they cannot charge? Others cannot assault from deep strike so why should you be able to. Oh right, its because you're Space Marines.

Go ahead, make them 70 pts. I don't use them much anyway. I think they are highly, highly overrated.

Two volleys of plasma fire probably won't do it either. Not trying to get through 3++/FNP. Also, a good Tau general won't get two pods drop within plasma double tap range.

" does not mishap"

They do mishap if they scatter off the board. Use that to your advantage. I don't think units should be able to assault from deep strike in a pod. That was not my implication. My point was that because you can not do that, pods are very, very high risk transports. Frankly, I often welcome a drop list.

A big part of playing against drop lists is looking at what they have loaded in them and optimizing your setup to mitigate their damage. If you can do that, most drop lists fold up quickly.

Martel I hate to tell you this but you're being very negative. Riptides aren't infallable, you just need to have some measures in place.

A BA drop pod list could be very useful to counter Tau.

For example take 2 BA command squads and put triple plasma guns on them in pods. That's a potential 12 shots.
Rippy won't be shooting back with the blast because you'll be in 1-2" of Tau models, therefore will likely miss.
Each squad costs 180 points and has FnP.

Just one idea.

An alternative is to drop a tactical squad in with 4 flamers and loads of bolters and destroy some firewarriors or other suits.
Depending on the target you could get a lot of wounds on a squad.

Always accept everything you drop is expendable and kill some Tau.

At most there will be 2-3 units intercepting at any given time. Missile sides will hurt but most commonly the riptide won't do much.

I know from personal experience mine misses a lot.

Get back on the horse and kick some butt. You're a marine aren't you? You know no fear.

That's just the problem. Marines aren't expendable. The drop pod suicide idea would work much better with cheap troops and cheap models in general.

Most Tau players I play against don't have EWO on the Riptides. They just use clever positioning so Astartes can't get plasma/melta drops on them and then just shoot normally on their turn to devastating effect.

Drop pod schemes are very limited in that you can only drop what your opponent lets you drop. Tau will put their expendable units out to suck up the drop damage and then massacre the Astartes on the subsequent turn. There's a reason DoA lists in 5th were called "Dead on Arrival". You can game against drop pods lists quite severely.

Drop lists are ALWAYS fighting with one hand behind their back because of paying for pods that don't contribute firepower and the piecemealed nature of their deployment. They are taking a huge risk that 1200 or so pts dropped can take on your entire list of 1850-2000. That's a hard task, especially when the Xeno general knows exactly what is coming.

In the end analysis, Riptides are far more infallible than pods. I can't bubblewrap units to protect them from the Riptide. I can't get cover from it. I can't out range it. I can't catch it to assault it, even with BA. Pods frequently spit out expensive models that are only going to get to shoot once. I don't know why anyone thinks this is a good winning strategy in general. Make sure they are shooting Kroot or Firewarriors and you just won right there, as you will cause double or triple the point value in damage back on your shooting phase because the drop failed to cause a significant reduction in Tau firepower.

"Rippy won't be shooting back with the blast because you'll be in 1-2" of Tau models, therefore will likely miss. "

That's why they leave off the EWO and just move their guys out of the way the old fashioned way on their turn and forget interceptor. It works much better.

I'm pretty negative because I'm like 1-13 against Tau since their 6th ed codex dropped.

I'm thinking about trying to for triple drop Furioso, but that's hard to work into a TAC list.

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Markerlights ignoring cover after just one light (-2 per light seems fair).

It's Ignore cover for 2 counters.

Whoops, you are right. -1 cover per light then would most likely be fair

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
The reason that Tau get a lot of hate is they are supposed to be a mobile short range firepower list with mini gundams providing heavy weapons and alien allies providing melee support.

According to what? In most pieces of fluff one of the biggest Tau advantages are range and mobility.

According to their old codexes, which list the kroot being brought on specifically as melee/scouts, since the tau disdain such strategies.
Tau are sold as a very mobile force, but gameplay is quite different.

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
They are instead a gunline army that, with the exception of a few units, just sit there and target units. This is chiefly due to the way markerlights and riptides work. It's very annoying to see a player just sit there, point at a unit, delete it, and move on to the next. People never enjoy a campy playstyle, in any game (look at SSB campy players if you want to see true hatred, or old school Street fighter Guile playstyle).

Agreed 100%. Tau get more flak than many other stronger armies (like Daemons, old Necrons or SM) just because for many armies it's just no fun to play against.

Yeah, nobody likes to play against a camper.

LordBlades wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I agree with this. Dreadnoughts have been lame forever, let's buff them and lords, along with brutes, and remove the new MC walkers.

Honestly I've never understood the need for MCs. Why not just have infantry and vehicles and be done with it? I really fail to see what couldn't have been solved by classifying a unit as either of them.

Well, nids and demons probably need them. That's about it though.

LordBlades wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:

The FNP costs 35pts and without it I think its silly to go for the nova shield and even then your gonna lose one wound every 6 turns. A squad of pathfinders to back him up is another 55 points.
.

It's 1 wound every 3 turns, you need 3+ to Nova.

BAO 2014 Top Ten - One Tau
LVO 2014 Top Eight - No Tau
Nova Open 2014 Top Sixteen - One Tau.

Both Tau lists ran 3x Riptides. No Tau player took #1 or #2.

They (Tau. Riptides) aren't as competitive or game-breaking as the vocal minority would make you believe.

Of course, if you take a non-optimized list against 3x Riptides, you're going to have trouble. Same can be said of 3x Wraithknights or 3x Dreadknights.

If I could rank them, it'd be #1) Wraithknight, #2) Riptide, #3) Dreadknight.

Let's talk synergy, since I've seen that tossed around here. Yes, Riptides synergies well with marker lights. But Tau marker lights are easy to kill.

The Wraithknight synergies with the current Eldar meta very well. DA Serpent Spam + Swooping Hawks/Spiders obliterate most troops. The Wraithknight is then the perfect counter to Vehicles/MCs with it's 2x s10ap1, 1/6 Insta Kill weapons. With toughness 8, they're very tough to kill. They've got all their bases covered.

andbreak wrote:
BAO 2014 Top Ten - One Tau
LVO 2014 Top Eight - No Tau
Nova Open 2014 Top Sixteen - One Tau.

Both Tau lists ran 3x Riptides. No Tau player took #1 or #2.

They (Tau. Riptides) aren't as competitive or game-breaking as the vocal minority would make you believe.

Of course, if you take a non-optimized list against 3x Riptides, you're going to have trouble. Same can be said of 3x Wraithknights or 3x Dreadknights.

If I could rank them, it'd be #1) Wraithknight, #2) Riptide, #3) Dreadknight.

Let's talk synergy, since I've seen that tossed around here. Yes, Riptides synergies well with marker lights. But Tau marker lights are easy to kill.

The Wraithknight synergies with the current Eldar meta very well. DA Serpent Spam + Swooping Hawks/Spiders obliterate most troops. The Wraithknight is then the perfect counter to Vehicles/MCs with it's 2x s10ap1, 1/6 Insta Kill weapons. With toughness 8, they're very tough to kill. They've got all their bases covered.

Well, in fairness, there were probably no Grey Knights who won any of those competitions, either

I'm pretty sure someone mentioned it on another post, but terrain makes all the world of difference. If you play terrain-heavy urban maps using staggered GW buildings, Riptides and gunlines are suddenly a lot weaker -- all that range matters not at all, if you can't see more than 12" without hitting a 4 story building, where every walkway is only 1.5" wide (preventing your Riptides from ever being anything other than ground level). Add some single-file infantry-only (35mm) alleyways, and MCs get murdered. Switch that over to an 8' open table with a hills on each corner and nothing in between, and the Dreadknights should just concede.

Now, granted that both are extreme, but when you go into FLGS, many games are very terrain light because store selection is limited and people don't want to carry 15 cases of buildings and hills. However, my experience is that at homes of enthusiasts, the games are much more terrain heavy, because they happen to have a lots of cool, painted terrain that they want to play with.

To be fair, Riptides aren't the only ones that can hurt themselves trying to boost their saves. Dreadknights can do it too if you'd like a better than 50% chance for a 4++ invulnerable save.

Sure it might not happen as much but anything that can potentially completely kill the model in one go on it's own turn by itself should be counted right?

Akiasura wrote:

Whoops, you are right. -1 cover per light then would most likely be fair

Or you could just leave them as they are,given how fragile the Markerlight units are. Everyone who complains about Markerlights acts as if Pathfinders have Land Raider stats. In actual game they go down to any kind of serious firepower. You only need to take down 2 guys from a 5 man Pathfinder unit to make it unlikely for the Tau player to get the 2 counters needed for Ignore Cover.

Akiasura wrote:
According to their old codexes, which list the kroot being brought on specifically as melee/scouts, since the tau disdain such strategies.
Tau are sold as a very mobile force, but gameplay is quite different.

Many armies play different than the fluff. Hell, even SM, who is probably the most popular army. I don't recall too much SM fluff where it's all about the Grav bikes and cents (and tac suqads and termies suck) for example.

EDIT: In regard to 'nobody likes to play against a camper': unless the basic rules change enough so that assault is no longer the red headed step child of game strategies, one army will be the best at shooting. And for that army it will make most sense to do everything they can to keep the enemy at range, thus makimg the most of being more shooty. I can fully understand the frustration this playstyle brings, but if it's not going to be Tau, it's going to be somebody else. Camping isn't the 'Tau playstyle', but rather 'the shootiest army playstyle, and someone will always hold that spot.

Riptide is best at range. The Dreadknight and Wraithknights are more balanced and both are excellent in melee. In 1v1, the Dreadknight will most likely beat both others, but in large games, the Riptide is the best.

I have limited experience, but I dislike the riptide the most. Fully kitted out, it just seems too cheap for what it brings.

As for the tau playstyle... There will always be a shootiest army out there, sure. I just wish it wasn't tau, who completely ignore all phases of the game except shooting. I think it's horrible game design that the most common tau army, the gunline will only move or take part in the assault phase if their enemies force them to - it makes the game boring for both players.

I'd be okay with tau having all the pew pew, but make it more fun. In my experience, in an any race vs. tau fight, the non-tau player moans until he makes it to close combat or wins the shooting battle (Gork knows how you do that) and the tau player moans whenever he actually has to move his models and roll for close combat attacks. In my opinion, that's a bad sign.

 Mumblez wrote:
I have limited experience, but I dislike the riptide the most. Fully kitted out, it just seems too cheap for what it brings.

As for the tau playstyle... There will always be a shootiest army out there, sure. I just wish it wasn't tau, who completely ignore all phases of the game except shooting. I think it's horrible game design that the most common tau army, the gunline will only move or take part in the assault phase if their enemies force them to - it makes the game boring for both players.

I'd be okay with tau having all the pew pew, but make it more fun. In my experience, in an any race vs. tau fight, the non-tau player moans until he makes it to close combat or wins the shooting battle (Gork knows how you do that) and the tau player moans whenever he actually has to move his models and roll for close combat attacks. In my opinion, that's a bad sign.

Astra Militarum, the other pure gunline army of the game also just stands there and shoots. Well, they occasionally roll some dice in the psychic phase too.

IMO there is no solution to making pure gunlines fun. Their best chance at winning is shooting you to death, so they will do their best to keep you in a position where they can shoot you to death.If getting into melee is hard, then playing vs. pure gunlines is frustrating. If getting unto melee is easy, then pure gunlines need to be altered so that they have a chance in melee, therefore ceasing to be pure gunlines.

LordBlades wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:
I have limited experience, but I dislike the riptide the most. Fully kitted out, it just seems too cheap for what it brings.

As for the tau playstyle... There will always be a shootiest army out there, sure. I just wish it wasn't tau, who completely ignore all phases of the game except shooting. I think it's horrible game design that the most common tau army, the gunline will only move or take part in the assault phase if their enemies force them to - it makes the game boring for both players.

I'd be okay with tau having all the pew pew, but make it more fun. In my experience, in an any race vs. tau fight, the non-tau player moans until he makes it to close combat or wins the shooting battle (Gork knows how you do that) and the tau player moans whenever he actually has to move his models and roll for close combat attacks. In my opinion, that's a bad sign.

Astra Militarum, the other pure gunline army of the game also just stands there and shoots. Well, they occasionally roll some dice in the psychic phase too.

IMO there is no solution to making pure gunlines fun. Their best chance at winning is shooting you to death, so they will do their best to keep you in a position where they can shoot you to death.If getting into melee is hard, then playing vs. pure gunlines is frustrating. If getting unto melee is easy, then pure gunlines need to be altered so that they have a chance in melee, therefore ceasing to be pure gunlines.

That's a fair point, I had forgotten about IG/AM.

Yeah, gunlines are sadly just a concept that is awesome in theory, but makes for incredibly boring and/or frustrating games.

Also, I didn't mean getting to assault is difficult, I feel it's in a sweet spot right now, the units that need to, can be made durable enough to make it.. That, and I'm a green tide ork player, so I have no complaints.

Maybe if Ignores Cover wasn't so easy to get for tau it'd make fighting against them a bit better? It's a wee bit demoralizing just removing model after model, after all.

Just pointing out that SM ignore the most rules, not Tau.

SGTPozy wrote:
Just pointing out that SM ignore the most rules, not Tau.

It depends on how you look at it. ATSKNF has become far less important than it was in 3rd ed because of the high casualty rates.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Just pointing out that SM ignore the most rules, not Tau.

It depends on how you look at it. ATSKNF has become far less important than it was in 3rd ed because of the high casualty rates.

There are quite a few other rules Space Marines ignore. For example, afaik only SM can:

-Deep Strike in turn 1
-Assault from non open-topped vehicles (including flyers)

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Just pointing out that SM ignore the most rules, not Tau.

It depends on how you look at it. ATSKNF has become far less important than it was in 3rd ed because of the high casualty rates.

Just because it isn't important it doesn't change the fact that the most popular army ignores the most rules, yet people complain about Tau ignoring rules...

I suppose what he meant is that not all rules are equal. And he is right. Guess which one I would choose, ignore cover or ATSKNF?

For me, of the three I dislike playing against wraithknights the most.

T8 and 6 wounds is just so many to go through.

If the question is which is the most powerful though, then it really comes down to what army they are going against.

Riptides are the bane of long range shooty armies as they opperate to their full effectiveness at range, and JSJ keeps them out of most harms way.
I wouldn't want to play with Tau or IG when facing riptides. When I use my Daemons on the otherhand they are relatively easy to deal with.

Against more melee focussed armies the wraithknight becomes more of a problem, as it excels up close and is so durable.
Using my previous example, a wraithknight would have to play more cautiously vs a tau gunline, whereas against daemons its str 10 and T8 make it a real challenge to deal with.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Just pointing out that SM ignore the most rules, not Tau.

It depends on how you look at it. ATSKNF has become far less important than it was in 3rd ed because of the high casualty rates.

Just because it isn't important it doesn't change the fact that the most popular army ignores the most rules, yet people complain about Tau ignoring rules...

I don't particularly care about that. I think it's more fair to say Tau ignore phases of the game more than rules. Even what movement they do is just to further more shooting.


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LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Just pointing out that SM ignore the most rules, not Tau.

It depends on how you look at it. ATSKNF has become far less important than it was in 3rd ed because of the high casualty rates.

There are quite a few other rules Space Marines ignore. For example, afaik only SM can:

-Deep Strike in turn 1
-Assault from non open-topped vehicles (including flyers)

Assault vehicles don't ignore rules. They have a rule called "assault". For which they pay exorbitant points.

Martel732 wrote:


Assault vehicles don't ignore rules. They have a rule called "assault". For which they pay exorbitant points.

Then markerlights don't ignore rules either. They have a rule called 'ignore cover' for which you on average have to pay at least 44 pointsof very fragile models.

Martel732 wrote:


I don't particularly care about that. I think it's more fair to say Tau ignore phases of the game more than rules. Even what movement they do is just to further more shooting.

Just because YOU do not care, others do. ATSKNF is very useful but marine players are just used to getting loads of love because they're space marines.

What phases?
Movement? No, they move into better positions, to move backwards and to grab objectives.
Psychic? Yes, but so do Necrons, SoB and DE.
Shooting? Of course not.
Assault? No, we do our thrust moves there.

So how does Tau "ignore phases" when they ignore a single phase; singular, not plural.

Finally, "Even what movement they do is just to further more shooting," what? What's wrong with that? Do we complain that a CC army moves towards us to assault us? That point is extremely idiotic.

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Assault vehicles don't ignore rules. They have a rule called "assault". For which they pay exorbitant points.

Then markerlights don't ignore rules either. They have a rule called 'ignore cover' for which you on average have to pay at least 44 pointsof very fragile models.

I'm not talking about Tau ignoring rules. How did that even come up?


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SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


I don't particularly care about that. I think it's more fair to say Tau ignore phases of the game more than rules. Even what movement they do is just to further more shooting.

Just because YOU do not care, others do. ATSKNF is very useful but marine players are just used to getting loads of love because they're space marines.

What phases?
Movement? No, they move into better positions, to move backwards and to grab objectives.
Psychic? Yes, but so do Necrons, SoB and DE.
Shooting? Of course not.
Assault? No, we do our thrust moves there.

So how does Tau "ignore phases" when they ignore a single phase; singular, not plural.

Finally, "Even what movement they do is just to further more shooting," what? What's wrong with that? Do we complain that a CC army moves towards us to assault us? That point is extremely idiotic.

I don't know how we got onto this topic, but it's useful. I'm talking about a singular unit in the Tau codex. I was mostly repeating the complaints others have put forth. I don't really think about what rules or phases get ignored. I mostly care about how fast my army gets picked and put back in the box.

ATSKNF isn't really useful that much anymore because they game is about killing models, not making them run away.

" just used to getting loads of love because they're space marines."

Go check out 2nd ed and tell me how much love was there.

Were not in 2nd Edition anymore so your comment is invalid. The bottom line is Space Marine and Imperial armies as a whole get a lot more love and can do just as nasty and even nastier stuff then the Tau ever could. The point they are making is that many of your statements are completely hypocritical in regards to the Riptide as Imperial armies have plenty to deal with it and have even nastier units available. The Riptide does not ignore "Phases" of the game as you so claim, it has special rules like Space Marines due that give the army a flavor and allow it to function the way it does. Complain all you want about the Riptide, outside a point tweak to the Ion Accelerator its perfectly fine and instead of complaining so much about it try and find ways to deal with it instead of blaming the Tau/Riptide for all your woes.

It's not completely invalid because it happened. Loyalist marines were completely unplayable. So don't act like they've always gotten the best stuff.

The base Riptide is still too durable and mobile for its point cost, independent of the ion accelerator. It is NOT perfectly fine. It is the only MC that requires extremely specialized weaponry to even engage.

I notice that most everyone ignored my post about the failings of drop lists. I've been playing with and against drop pods since the day they were released. If that's the kind of "love" you are talking about, I find it a bit lackluster.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not completely invalid because it happened. Loyalist marines were completely unplayable. So don't act like they've always gotten the best stuff.

The base Riptide is still too durable and mobile for its point cost, independent of the ion accelerator. It is NOT perfectly fine. It is the only MC that requires extremely specialized weaponry to even engage.

I notice that most everyone ignored my post about the failings of drop lists. I've been playing with and against drop pods since the day they were released. If that's the kind of "love" you are talking about, I find it a bit lackluster.

Or you are utilizing Drop Pods poorly which isn't out of the question, and it is invalid because it was so long ago, this is 7th not 2nd. And it IS perfectly fine, the Riptide does not need "special weaponry" as you so claim to deal with it. The same weapons that work on Riptides work on Dreadknights and Wraithknights, they are not immune to those weapons. If the Riptide is "to durable" then I expect the Dreadknight to go up in points as well since it has the same exact toughness and saves according to your logic.

Here's a pretty easy way to think of it. Codex Grey Knights was recently replaced. Codex Eldar and Codex Tau will soon be replaced because they're still 6th.

Dreadknight, Wraithknight, Riptide: which do you think will get nerfs? ^^

If I were a betting man, I would not go out and buy 6 Riptide models to field. Tau will get other buffs, and maybe even come out stronger for the codex, but just like Necron, things that are just too good or that are must-takes will get hit with the nerf bat. I don't think GW will go too far, as Riptides are nice models, but I don't think they'll be what they are today, too, and something else will emerge as the new Tau meta.

Besides, how else would GW sell Tau players more models? How many people went out and bought multiple boxes of crappy finecast Flayed One models, when the models themselves are outdated and overpriced?

Riptide? Are you talking about Ankalomosos, the pen-sword Percy Jackson had in the Percy Jackson series?

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not completely invalid because it happened. Loyalist marines were completely unplayable. So don't act like they've always gotten the best stuff.

The base Riptide is still too durable and mobile for its point cost, independent of the ion accelerator. It is NOT perfectly fine. It is the only MC that requires extremely specialized weaponry to even engage.

I notice that most everyone ignored my post about the failings of drop lists. I've been playing with and against drop pods since the day they were released. If that's the kind of "love" you are talking about, I find it a bit lackluster.

Or you are utilizing Drop Pods poorly which isn't out of the question, and it is invalid because it was so long ago, this is 7th not 2nd. And it IS perfectly fine, the Riptide does not need "special weaponry" as you so claim to deal with it. The same weapons that work on Riptides work on Dreadknights and Wraithknights, they are not immune to those weapons. If the Riptide is "to durable" then I expect the Dreadknight to go up in points as well since it has the same exact toughness and saves according to your logic.

Actually, the Riptide DOES require special weaponry, because it never gets within range of 80% of Imperial weapons.

It's not me utilizing them incorrectly. It's watching them be foiled and foiling them myself. Drop pods are a tool for sure, but their backfire rate is quite high, making them a major gamble.

Just because something happened in the 90s, doesn't make it not count. 2nd ed happened, and loyalist marines were AWFUL. More awful than any bottom feeder list has been since then.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, the Riptide DOES require special weaponry, because it never gets within range of 80% of Imperial weapons.

It's not me utilizing them incorrectly. It's watching them be foiled and foiling them myself. Drop pods are a tool for sure, but their backfire rate is quite high, making them a major gamble.

Just because something happened in the 90s, doesn't make it not count. 2nd ed happened, and loyalist marines were AWFUL. More awful than any bottom feeder list has been since then.

-Major exaggeration with that percentage you must be playing on insanely wide tables and are not utilizing proper units and tactics to close said distance. There is PLENTY in the Imperial arsenal that can handle the Riptides quite easily, trust me I play Imperial Guard as well as Tau and NEVER have issue bringing down Riptides and other MC's.

-Drop Pods when utilized properly, much like Dreadknights they can have a massive impact on the game and yes they are a major gamble. That does not ignore the fact that they are one of the best ways to deal with Tau and Riptides in general, all that it takes is you deploying them so they are so close to other Tau units that its a gamble to shoot at them.

-I think Orks in this edition would have to disagree with you. And your ignoring the fact since then that in every edition they have gotten the best of everything in all other editions, 5th edition Grey Knights ring a bell?

"I think Orks in this edition would have to disagree with you."

Let's not get into this. Evidently you never played 2nd or you would know better. 2nd was very, very different and so it's hard to understand how badly you could get overwhelmed in that edition by Eldar or Tyranids or CSM. As in, the loyalist marines don't get a turn overwhelmed. I don't think Orks are getting tabled in one turn in 6th.

As for drop pods, it's a pure positioning game. I've seen Tau do this to SW players at least a dozen times. Utilize the board edges and your non-Riptide troops to make it so they can't get plasma double taps on the Riptides when they drop. Make sure they are killing less important units. Do not utilize interceptor, because you have already made it so the SW can't hurt you very much through positioning.

Then, on the Tau turn, move your units away from the SW so your templates can land with no risk to your own units. Done. The SW will lose around double to triple the points they just took away from the Tau, effectively ending the game on Tau turn 1, as the SW can not climb out of that hole. Nor can their foot sloggers ever catch Riptides or even crisis suits to assault them. It becomes a turkey shoot.

In a sense, there is no "utilize drop pods properly". Your opponent completely dictates to a drop list how the game is going to go. You are at the mercy of his initial set up. If your initial strike fails to inflict enough damage, your units are all foot slogging target practice.

Given the saves on Riptides, there is literally nothing that handles them "easily", not even AM, unless you list tailor. Are you list tailoring? If not, most AM lists have plenty of autocannons and plasma guns which are functionally useless against Riptides, because of the saves against autocannons and the plasma gun s can't get close enough.

" not utilizing proper units and tactics to close said distance"

Riptides move insanely fast. What do you propose to use close said distance? Not even BA can keep up.

You keep bringing up the Dreadknight like it is somehow comparable to the Riptide. While the stat line is similar, the actual usage on the battlefield makes the Dreadknight anywhere from 1.5 X to I'd say even 4 X less durable depending on the opponent. The Dreadknight effectively must move within range of every AP 2 weapon in the game to do its business. Compare to the Riptide, which, on the typical table, only needs to get within range of lascannon, bright lances, heavy wraith cannons and the like. The list of AP 2 weapons that can reach a Ritpide is very short. Hence, my specialized weaponry comment. You can't drop short range AP 2 weapons next to them, because good Tau players won't let you. So the Dreadknight has to face the full wrath of a list, whereas the Riptide only ever faces a fraction.

So moving 6 inches with a random distance jump move is insanely fast compared to Fast Vehicles, Drop Pods ect? Fail to see the accuracy of that claim.

No I didn't play 2nd edition, however Orks though maybe not tabled turn one have an impossible uphill climb and fight against almost every army in the game, the claim is not without validity.

Have you ever seen Centurions in Drop Pods? Positioning is moot when you have weapons that can reach out and touch you without worry. There are also ways for Drop Pod lists to counter and take advantage of your opponents deployment, letting your opponent deploy and go first not only wastes an entire turn of shooting for them but allows you to counter their deployment to the best of your ability, trust me I have seen this work we can keep going tit for tat over this.

And no im not list tailoring because even the mighty Riptide struggles with walls of 14 armor and weight of fire ill bring down anything, which the Imperial Guard can bring a lot of it to bear. And please tell me how a plasma gun is useless against a Riptide? Some of the comments you make really confuse me. There is plenty of weaponry in the Imperial arsenal and tactics that can be used to take on the Tau and Riptides. Maybe stop complaining about it and look at tactica treads dedicated to the subject? And again you must be playing on the largest boards in existence to never be in range of any of the Tau units.

AV 14 armor is admittedly an issue for the Riptide. However, the weaponry on those AV 14 platforms will be no more successful at damaging the Riptides, they just won't be shot off the table instantly. A stalemate of shorts.

" And please tell me how a plasma gun is useless against a Riptide?"

Plasma guns are worthless against the Riptide because the Tau player wont' let you close to double tap range. The schmoe humping the gun can't catch the Riptide.

"Have you ever seen Centurions in Drop Pods?"

Yes, but that's a function of the Centurions, not the drop pods. Tiggy portal of infinity works just as well. Grav cents are right up there with Riptides, potentially worse with Tiggy tacked on. No arguments here. Put some tac marines in a drop pod and then see how OP the drop pod is then.

" trust me I have seen this work "

If the drop pod list has no target on turn 1 for you to shoot, you just won, because that means they have piecemealed their *entire* list for you and you can shoot them apart as they enter the board. They just divided and conquered themselves FOR you. Being close to your opponent, but unable to assault is very, very hazardous.

"So moving 6 inches with a random distance jump move is insanely fast compared to Fast Vehicles, Drop Pods ect? Fail to see the accuracy of that claim. "

It's a jump move on top of the regular move. The Riptide will just step on the two straggling assault marines or whatever that manage to finally catch the thing. When I say "can't catch", I mean "can't catch before the Tau list has shot me off the table"

"weight of fire ill bring down anything, which the Imperial Guard can bring a lot of it to bear."

I don't think even the guard can bring enough autocannons to meaningfully threaten T6 2+ FNP W5 models. You are only clearing 11.1% of wounds against Riptides with autocannons, and then that's after 66% chance to wound, so that's 7.4%, but after to-hit, that's only 3.7%. 25 AM autocannon shots have around a 60% chance to cause a SINGLE wound to a Riptide. You are facing 15-20 Wounds worth of these things usually.

Talys wrote:
Here's a pretty easy way to think of it. Codex Grey Knights was recently replaced. Codex Eldar and Codex Tau will soon be replaced because they're still 6th.

Dreadknight, Wraithknight, Riptide: which do you think will get nerfs? ^^

If I were a betting man, I would not go out and buy 6 Riptide models to field. Tau will get other buffs, and maybe even come out stronger for the codex, but just like Necron, things that are just too good or that are must-takes will get hit with the nerf bat. I don't think GW will go too far, as Riptides are nice models, but I don't think they'll be what they are today, too, and something else will emerge as the new Tau meta.

Besides, how else would GW sell Tau players more models? How many people went out and bought multiple boxes of crappy finecast Flayed One models, when the models themselves are outdated and overpriced?

Here is another simple way to look at it:

-Dreadknight just got updated. This means GW considers it's current stats 'fine'. Given this benchmark, Riptide is also largely fine, asit shares most stats.

- Riptide is the most expensive Tau kit. It's equally likely GW will come up with some kind of wacky formation that allows you to field more than 3 Riptides per squad.

"Riptide is also largely fine, asit shares most stats. "

Except for how the Riptide is used compared to the Dreadknight. The Dreadknight goes down so much faster.

Martel732 wrote:
"Riptide is also largely fine, asit shares most stats. "

Except for how the Riptide is used compared to the Dreadknight. The Dreadknight goes down so much faster.

In your experience.

In mine most lists I play against (on 6x4 ft. tables with terrain) don't have that many issues getting in range.

Can you please stop presenting your anecdotal evidence (which multiple posters have argued is skewed due to the lists and conditions you play.in) as hard facts?

You're also giving GW too much credit if you think any balancing process they might have goes so far as to consider how a unit is used.

Martel732 wrote:
"Riptide is also largely fine, asit shares most stats. "

Except for how the Riptide is used compared to the Dreadknight. The Dreadknight goes down so much faster.

As I stated previously, it really depends on the opposition.
Against shooty armies with lots of ap2 weapons, yes, against fast close combat armies no.

This aside, riptides are so much better to face than they used to be.
Now that tau players can no longer have 2 riptides joined to a buffmander giving them re-roll misses, ignores cover and tank/monster hunter they are much more manageable than before.

Martel, give up you are losing your argument.

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Riptide is also largely fine, asit shares most stats. "

Except for how the Riptide is used compared to the Dreadknight. The Dreadknight goes down so much faster.

In your experience.

In mine most lists I play against (on 6x4 ft. tables with terrain) don't have that many issues getting in range.

Can you please stop presenting your anecdotal evidence (which multiple posters have argued is skewed due to the lists and conditions you play.in) as hard facts?

You're also giving GW too much credit if you think any balancing process they might have goes so far as to consider how a unit is used.

Is a Dreadknight or Riptide more likely to move closer to your list on its turn? The effective range of the Dreadknight vs the Ritpide is not anecdotal. It's mathematical. I'm also on 6X4 tables with terrain. This actually helps the Riptide, though, because I have to move through said terrain to get to the thing. Tau players frequently ravage one side of a list and pull the Riptides to that side and force the remaining forces to cross the table diagonal to get to them. Are your Tau players forgetting to move their Riptides?

I'm not claiming GW though of that. I'm just saying that while the stat line for the Dreadknight may be fine, it is NOT fine for the Riptide.


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SGTPozy wrote:
Martel, give up you are losing your argument.

No? And if I'm losing, then why has no one effectively addressed my points about the dreaded drop pod? Also, some people have actually agreed with me. Given the three choices in this thread, I don't think it's even really a contest. Now, if you want to talk about the most broken things in the game over all, the Riptide is lower than it used to be for sure. But amongst these *three* choices, I don't think it's even a contest. I'm entitled to this opinion. Now if the thread was Wave Serpent, Flyrant, and Riptide, that would be different.



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 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Riptide is also largely fine, asit shares most stats. "

Except for how the Riptide is used compared to the Dreadknight. The Dreadknight goes down so much faster.

As I stated previously, it really depends on the opposition.
Against shooty armies with lots of ap2 weapons, yes, against fast close combat armies no.

This aside, riptides are so much better to face than they used to be.
Now that tau players can no longer have 2 riptides joined to a buffmander giving them re-roll misses, ignores cover and tank/monster hunter they are much more manageable than before.

I will agree that their firepower has been reduced somewhat because of this change.

I have given you a few points when it comes to Drop Pods but you still continue to ignore them, let me reiterate it clearly so you get it:

-Drop Pods are nasty against Tau because they can get special weapons into their most effective ranges.

-You almost always will be going first allowing you to get First Blood.

-You can negate the impact of interceptor by droping close to enemy forces. I don't care what the enemy player is you can still get desired weapons into range of desired targets being they only have their deployment zone in which to maneuver in.

-If deployed properly and executed correctly you could potentially wipe out an opponents flank, which you should be doing with your Drop Pods anyway, keeping forces close together to create the best advantage.

And again your argument in regards to the range being such a huge factor for the Riptide is null and void, all it means is you have to utilize longer ranged weaponry, heavy armor (such as Land Raiders) and drop pods to name a few which are all easy to get for Imperial Armies. And yes the Dreadknight has to get closer but that Dreadknight or rather multiple Dreadknights (as ive never seen them taken alone, using your example of personal experiences to explain this) they get to shoot first and anything that does not have a 3+ armor save or better is going to die instantly to the torrent flamer, heavy Psycannon or potential instant death Pscilencer.

"No? And if I'm losing, then why has no one effectively addressed my points about the dreaded drop pod?"

People have. Just because no one shares your opinion about them sucking it doesn't mean that it hasn't been addressed.

SGTPozy wrote:

"No? And if I'm losing, then why has no one effectively addressed my points about the dreaded drop pod?"

People have. Just because no one shares your opinion about them sucking it doesn't mean that it hasn't been addressed.

I didn't say they suck. I said they can be gamed against and are a much bigger risk than Xeno players are making them out to be. I'd be less confident about this is I hadn't have to play this scenario over and over against SW. BA can't reliably assault SW and win. So we are forced to play shooty-scooty games after the SW drop all over my list. The Tau just do the EXACT same thing to Imperial drop lists except they do it better because they are designed to shoot better than BA.

"-Drop Pods are nasty against Tau because they can get special weapons into their most effective ranges"

Only if you let them.

"-You almost always will be going first allowing you to get First Blood. "

I addressed this. Pure drop lists divide and conquer themselves without any extra effort on your part. They may get first blood, but their opponent will almost certainly get last blood.

"You can negate the impact of interceptor by droping close to enemy forces"

Don't use interceptor. Just shoot them normally on your turn after they kill zero Riptides. After moving your units away, of course.

"-If deployed properly and executed correctly you could potentially wipe out an opponents flank, which you should be doing with your Drop Pods anyway, keeping forces close together to create the best advantage."

I have never seen an entire flank taken out by anything other than Centurion drops. Astartes in particular don't pack enough firepower to do what you describe.

"all it means is you have to utilize longer ranged weaponry"

Which cost a lot more and get fewer shots than short-range weaponry. What gets more shots per point? A lascannon or plasma gun? Please think about what you are writing here. The drop pod does not help if the Tau bubblewraps well and uses the board edges/impassable terrain (if any).

Martel732 wrote:


Is a Dreadknight or Riptide more likely to move closer to your list on its turn? The effective range of the Dreadknight vs the Ritpide is not anecdotal. It's mathematical. I'm also on 6X4 tables with terrain. This actually helps the Riptide, though, because I have to move through said terrain to get to the thing. Tau players frequently ravage one side of a list and pull the Riptides to that side and force the remaining forces to cross the table diagonal to get to them. Are your Tau players forgetting to move their Riptides?

Pretty much every single heavy weapon available to IoM is range 48". This leaves you to cover 24 inches in the most unfavorable case. Hell, a Fast Rhino or Predator moving flat out covers those 24 inches in a turn.

Also, in your opinion of the Riptide's survivability compared to the Dreadknight you're conveniently letting out the fact that the Dreadknight will be spending quite a few turns in close combat (thus being 100% immune to being shot at) and not many units have AP2 melee.

Regarding drop pods, what are your usual Tau opponents bubble wrapping their Riptides with?

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Is a Dreadknight or Riptide more likely to move closer to your list on its turn? The effective range of the Dreadknight vs the Ritpide is not anecdotal. It's mathematical. I'm also on 6X4 tables with terrain. This actually helps the Riptide, though, because I have to move through said terrain to get to the thing. Tau players frequently ravage one side of a list and pull the Riptides to that side and force the remaining forces to cross the table diagonal to get to them. Are your Tau players forgetting to move their Riptides?

Pretty much every single heavy weapon available to IoM is range 48". This leaves you to cover 24 inches in the most unfavorable case. Hell, a Fast Rhino or Predator moving flat out covers those 24 inches in a turn.

Also, in your opinion of the Riptide's survivability compared to the Dreadknight you're conveniently letting out the fact that the Dreadknight will be spending quite a few turns in close combat (thus being 100% immune to being shot at) and not many units have AP2 melee.

Regarding drop pods, what are your usual Tau opponents bubble wrapping their Riptides with?

They don't have to against me, because I've largely stopped used drop pods with BA. But against SW and Salamanders, I've seen fire warriors and sniper Kroot used in conjunction with table edges. Salamanders, however, do have the option for drop Cents and TFCs. This makes them more dangerous than the BA or SW. But again, this is a function of TFCs and grav cents, not the drop pods.

"Dreadknight will be spending quite a few turns in close combat"

My ideal plan is to kill them before they can assault me. They conveniently put themselves in range of every weapon that can do it, too.

"Pretty much every single heavy weapon available to IoM is range 48".

But most can't hurt the Riptide. You NEED AP 2 or you are wasting your shots. See my above math for the autocannon.

"This leaves you to cover 24 inches in the most unfavorable case. Hell, a Fast Rhino or Predator moving flat out covers those 24 inches in a turn. "

Predators that move that far expose their sides and die.

Now your REALLY getting technical, if they are bubble wrapping their Riptides in Fire Warriors then flamers are your answer. Also being Blood Angels you can get several cheap flamer heavy squads in Drop Pods to deal with the problem. Also by doing that if you wipe everything out BUT the Riptides then you are in an advantageous position. And again you are making blind statements and personal experiences with no proof that they cannot be done, I've seen Riptides dropped by plasma Sternguard more then once. You don't have to agree with me, but saying "This is how it always is" is a very hypocritical statement as the Imperium has just as nasty stuff and just blind ignorance.

 gmaleron wrote:
Now your REALLY getting technical, if they are bubble wrapping their Riptides in Fire Warriors then flamers are your answer. Also being Blood Angels you can get several cheap flamer heavy squads in Drop Pods to deal with the problem. Also by doing that if you wipe everything out BUT the Riptides then you are in an advantageous position. And again you are making blind statements and personal experiences with no proof that they cannot be done, I've seen Riptides dropped by plasma Sternguard more then once. You don't have to agree with me, but saying "This is how it always is" is a very hypocritical statement as the Imperium has just as nasty stuff and just blind ignorance.

So I have to drop in flamer guys to try to clear the bubblewrap, watch them die on your turn, THEN try to send in more guys who get one shot at maybe killing a Ritpide before they die, too? And this is what you fear from drop pods? Really? Not all my lists have drop flamers, and the ones that do have one unit. TAC is a harsh mistress. Nothing in the BA codex is "cheap", either. Merely less expensive than it used to be. Throwing away 14 pt models adds up really, really fast. And that's the cheapest model I can cram in a drop pod. Your proposed solutions keep going back to advance knowledge of playing a Tau opponent. That is to say, list tailoring. I'm talking about running into Riptides in a non-tailored situation.

Ah yes, the plasma Sternguard. This, to me, is a very list tailored approach. But let's entertain this notion.

10 sternguard cost 220 pts. 10 combis are 100 pts more. 35 for the pod brings it to 355pts.

So we are going to drop this in and assume you get within 12". Because if you don't, you have no hope of killing the Riptide.

20 shots * .667 *. 667 = 8.9 wounds. That's a lot of AP 2 wounds, but this is the Riptide we are talking about here.

So, 66% of the time, the Riptide will have a 3++/FNP save. This brings cleared wounds down to 2.0 wounds.

The other 33% of the time, we have a 5++/FNP save. This clears 4.0 wounds.

Weighing these numbers, (.667*2.0)+(.333*4.0), we get 2.7 wounds averaged across many games.

So the marine player pays 355 pts to inflict 2.7 wounds to the Riptide, and then have the unit obliterated the next turn by the Tau army. This does not take into account Sternguard that kill themselves with gets hot! That number is only around 1.1, but it does have the effect of costing the marine player one 32 pt model, while killing NOTHING in return. The Ritpide fights just as well with 3 wounds on it as it does with no wounds. It doesn't get stunned or shaken like a tank, either. I'll also add that these marines never get to fire their special ammo or assault. In my view, that marine player just threw 355 pts down the toilet.

So you've seen outliers to the above math. Good for you. That's the definition of anecdotal, however. The math is not in the marine player's favor at all. And that's sacrificing a unit that costs considerably more than the target Riptide!

This is all the while assuming the Tau player does not take precautions against the drop pod full of plasma *that he knows is coming in*. Would you tell me that you would not make sure that these guys can't drop within 12" of your Riptides? Or are you claiming that standard marine lists have more than one Sternguard squad with 10X combi plasmas? Because I'm saying the average list has zero Sternguards with combiplasmas, because sternguard combis are a poor value now.


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Sorry I did math wrong above. Hold on for correction.

Sorry, I was under the happy delusion that my plasma guns were wounding on "2's". Silly me. This is T6 we are talking about. The new, even more depressing math has been updated.


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For your homework project, figure out how many lascannon shots it takes to replicate the numbers above. Then consider how many of said lascannons are actually in a typical marine list. Yeah, it's that bad.

Who the hell just said all the Imperium of Man Heavy weapons are 48 inches? Thats bs and shows you know nothing you're talking about.

Autocannon and Lascannon are the only ones with that range. Then Heavy Bolter and Plasma Cannon @ 36; Psycannon, Assault Cannon, and Multi-Melta @ 24.

Don't make me roll my eyes.

 Quickjager wrote:
Who the hell just said all the Imperium of Man Heavy weapons are 48 inches? Thats bs and shows you know nothing you're talking about.

Autocannon and Lascannon are the only ones with that range. Then Heavy Bolter and Plasma Cannon @ 36; Psycannon, Assault Cannon, and Multi-Melta @ 24.

Don't make me roll my eyes.

I chose not to address that point, since the only one that matters in this conversation is the lascannon. Despite that it was patently incorrect. Picking my battles and all that.

The answer to YOUR question is LordBlades.

At this point anything you say is all biased due to your personal experiences with the Tau and the apparent lack of adaptability you are willing to do with your list. Also again keep bringing up the Nova Charge, it is not as sure of thing as the "statistics" suggest, welcome to dice games. Bottom line its not getting fixed anytime soon and all it needs is a slight point decrease, get over it.

 gmaleron wrote:
At this point anything you say is all biased due to your personal experiences with the Tau and the apparent lack of adaptability you are willing to do with your list. Also again keep bringing up the Nova Charge, it is not as sure of thing as the "statistics" suggest, welcome to dice games. Bottom line its not getting fixed anytime soon and all it needs is a slight point decrease, get over it.

Translation: I can't refute your math, even though the calculations took the Nova Charge roll into account, so I'm going to stomp off without conceding anything. Even though the actual facts refute every claim I've made this entire thread. And throw in your face how OP my unit is.

I've shown you how a full plasma sternguard squad can't reliably kill one even under optimal conditions. But there's nothing wrong. Nothing at all. There is no possible adaptation when one of the most tailored possible units still can't get it done.

" it is not as sure of thing as the "statistics" suggest"

Really? It sure seems like a 66% chance to me. Or are statistics wrong, now, too?

It seems SGTPozy may have spoke a bit too soon.

Martel I use to run drop pod crimson fists... Never had any trouble taking down a Riptide with sternguard and sheer volume of saves I forced it to make. Also, I didn't use lascannons. Bolters did fine.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Martel I use to run drop pod crimson fists... Never had any trouble taking down a Riptide with sternguard and sheer volume of saves I forced it to make. Also, I didn't use lascannons. Bolters did fine.

I find that fascinating, as even the poison ammo bolters require around 45 wounds dealt to bring one down. Hook me up with whatever chapter tactic lets you do that.

Get new dice? Your rolls must really suck or luck is never on your side. You can borrow Mine.

How many Sternguard did you run? By my calculation three full squads in rapid fire range using the poison rounds will put the Riptide on one wound.

What kind of luck lets you inflict 45 wounds with say, 40 shots? That's two full sternguard squads unloading all their shots, hitting with everything, and wounding with everything. And they'll still statistically fall a bit short.

The odds of all 40 hitting to begin with are 1/8.2 X 10^-20.

Roughly 50 with everything in pods? Sorry you don't have as good of luck martel, as far as what kind I guess if I put a label, boss luck? Tau have never been that difficult. Take out what's important and play the mission and you win every time. Our tau player is now selling them for harlies since he is tired of the rest of the players dancing around in maelstrom.

 Quickjager wrote:
How many Sternguard did you run? By my calculation three full squads in rapid fire range using the poison rounds will put the Riptide on one wound.

That sounds right. If you need 30 22 pt models to inflict 4 wounds, that's not "no problem". That's "heroic effort". Which has been my claim all along.


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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Roughly 50 with everything in pods? Sorry you don't have as good of luck martel, as far as what kind I guess if I put a label, boss luck? Tau have never been that difficult. Take out what's important and play the mission and you win every time. Our tau player is now selling them for harlies since he is tired of the rest of the players dancing around in maelstrom.

You got 50 Sternguard all within rapid fire range of a single Riptide? Really? Even if this were a thing, you are still shooting an entire ARMY at a single 220-250 ish model to kill it.

I guess you only read the number not the post? *sigh* I see why most in this thread have given up on you. Poor, poor soul. Well, helpless will be helpless.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I guess you only read the number not the post? *sigh* I see why most in this thread have given up on you. Poor, poor soul. Well, helpless will be helpless.

Playing objectives has nothing to do with killing Riptides. At least, not directly. I never once claimed that you couldn't beat Tau on objectives. I personally assumed most people bailed because they couldn't refute my sternguard post.

10 Sternguard with plasma's in a pod, ultramarines chapter tactics. Half the time you'll go first before he can activate nova shield.

20 plasma shots, re-rolling 1s to hit, wounding on 3's, that 5++ will look pretty fallible after that.

Unless he's hiding behind a high wall or you do crazy scatter (which you shouldn't with a pod) he'll have a 5+ cover save at best and you should be in rapid fire range.

He fires his whole army at your Sternguard and kills them? Great that means the rest of your army can close him down.

Taffy17 wrote:
10 Sternguard with plasma's in a pod, ultramarines chapter tactics. Half the time you'll go first before he can activate nova shield.

20 plasma shots, re-rolling 1s to hit, wounding on 3's, that 5++ will look pretty fallible after that.

Unless he's hiding behind a high wall or you do crazy scatter (which you shouldn't with a pod) he'll have a 5+ cover save at best and you should be in rapid fire range.

He fires his whole army at your Sternguard and kills them? Great that means the rest of your army can close him down.

It doesn't take an entire Tau army to kill 10 sternguard. I already did the math for what you just talked about, except for the rerolling 1's part. Also, you also made the not-so-good assumption of getting to double tap range.

Also, UM chapter tactics lets tac squads reroll, not Sternguard.

why's it not so good? riptides base is about 3" wide at its thinnest. you just have to get out your pod within 3" of his deployment to be 12" away, not that hard.

Edit: that's assuming he's set up so you can't deepstrike in his deployment zone

Someone did this to me with 5 marines and I lost 3 wounds.

Taffy17 wrote:
why's it not so good? riptides base is about 3" wide at its thinnest. you just have to get out your pod within 3" of his deployment to be 12" away, not that hard.

Someone did this to me with 5 marines and I lost 3 wounds.

Because of bubblewrapping. And using the table edge. Riptides can be set up in strange places because their range is basically infinity.

Wait wait martel, you don't want us to take into account tau is easy to beat by focusing on the mission but you're going to take bubblewrapping into account to keep it alive longer? idk why you have such a hard time with riptides but I'm sorry they aren't that good. I now play orks.. and instead of shoot them to death I beat them to death.. deal is riptides are not scary. At all. Or even op in the slightest.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Wait wait martel, you don't want us to take into account tau is easy to beat by focusing on the mission but you're going to take bubblewrapping into account to keep it alive longer? idk why you have such a hard time with riptides but I'm sorry they aren't that good. I now play orks.. and instead of shoot them to death I beat them to death.. deal is riptides are not scary. At all. Or even op in the slightest.

So you claim.

I don't care if you take objectives into account, but the thread was about Riptide vs other units. NOT whether Tau can be beat.

The threat was about Dreadknights, Riptide, and wraithknights.. not riptides lol. Get it right please.

It wasn't about "riptide vs other units". Its a comparison of 3 monstrous creatures.

But you seem to have forgotten about the others and instead of comparing, which is what the thread is about, your just complaining

Martel732 wrote:
Translation: I can't refute your math, even though the calculations took the Nova Charge roll into account, so I'm going to stomp off without conceding anything. Even though the actual facts refute every claim I've made this entire thread. And throw in your face how OP my unit is.

I've shown you how a full plasma sternguard squad can't reliably kill one even under optimal conditions. But there's nothing wrong. Nothing at all. There is no possible adaptation when one of the most tailored possible units still can't get it done.

" it is not as sure of thing as the "statistics" suggest"

Really? It sure seems like a 66% chance to me. Or are statistics wrong, now, too?

It seems SGTPozy may have spoke a bit too soon.

Translation: Im going to continue to spout of statistics constantly in a game that is only based partially on that to try and justify that a unit that I struggle against continues to beat me. This while ignoring the fact that we addressed issues with your army list and apparent problems with terrain being set up on apparently ENOURMOUS tables where you can never reach a Riptide with any gun at decent range in this and in earlier threads. Think what you want dude, you rely on statistics like they are perfect all the time when guess what, its a dice game things happen. Mathahmmer does not solve everything like you would wish it to, and guess what no "stomping off here" im just pointing out your continued crying about Riptides is annoying and all your "solutions" to the problem are WAY to drastic. Hell multiple people on this thread have pointed this out that your crying about Riptides is completely misplaced. They are NOT OP as much as you would wish them to be now man up or keep trying to convince people of an opinion based on your personal experiences.

On top of that when people try to give you advice you scoff at them and say it "doesn't work" or "no point on trying it the Tau are mean" proving that you are unwilling to change up your tactics or strategy in order to beat in army. You sound like "this is how I play my army and the way I play my army should beat any army I face so we need to nerf the other armies and their good units in order for me to do that". Sorry bud the game does not work that way. Be willing to trade things up and try new things, and instead of constantly crying about Riptides, look at Tactica threads on how to beat them with Blood Angels or whatever else you play. Be constructive and stop being such a negative Nancy because bottom line, the Riptide is not getting changed anytime soon and if it does it only needs a few tweaks, not the nerfing into the ground you so desire.

The riptide is very strong against most targets, but send it up against any other monstrous creature and it will get killed.

If it was to pick on something it's own size it would get owned.

Taffy17 wrote:
The riptide is very strong against most targets, but send it up against any other monstrous creature and it will get killed.

If it was to pick on something it's own size it would get owned.

Swarm armies can give a Riptide heavy army fits to, especially Demon puppy spam as there are so many points tied up in x3 MC's it really effects the armies shot output. Where the Dreadknight in particular excels with it being so cheap in points cost, and where both the Dread and Wraithknight excel thanks to being dual purpose. Why I have them ranked Dreadknight-Wraithiknight then Riptide based on overall performance and capabilities.

Taffy you're correct shooting wise. Got Pedro kantor in melee with a Riptide by himself and he proceeded to crumble it into a ball and throw it off the "backfield" that martel spoke of

That too gmaleron.

Squad of marines, easy, aspect warriors, no trouble, (jet)bikes? fine with markerlights, 30 orcs? maybe not, flying daemon prince? nope, wraithknight? nope, imperial knight? definitely not

This is getting sad at this point. Just because there are a greater number of posters disagreeing with Martel doesn't mean he is wrong. In fact, I agree with pretty much everything he's posted so far.

I've seen him post a statistical argument, which was waived away and as a result mostly makes any opinion based arguments largely irrelevant. gmaleron I'd like to see you refute the numbers that, contrary to what you assert, actually do have a large amount of impact on the game and theoreticals.

I'm also confused as to why the OP didn't make this a poll thread... Smacks of being afraid of what the answer might be to me.

Not ignoring statistics at all but I have played this game long enough and have NEVER seen a game, mine or other peoples where the statistical average was perfect for the entire game. I take it into account but don't rely heavily on it, and I only am arguing his points because the changes he is proposing are way to drastic and if you agree with that then so are you. If the Riptide got nerfed that badly then all other MC's including those from the "Mighty Imperium of Man" should to without question.

Look, you're making this IoM vs Xenos; no one else has made it that.

 Ignatius wrote:
This is getting sad at this point. Just because there are a greater number of posters disagreeing with Martel doesn't mean he is wrong. In fact, I agree with pretty much everything he's posted so far.

I've seen him post a statistical argument, which was waived away and as a result mostly makes any opinion based arguments largely irrelevant. gmaleron I'd like to see you refute the numbers that, contrary to what you assert, actually do have a large amount of impact on the game and theoreticals.

I'm also confused as to why the OP didn't make this a poll thread... Smacks of being afraid of what the answer might be to me.

Indeed. Martel might come off as a downer (probably due to horrid Riptide/Wave Serpent trauma in the past), but he is not actually wrong.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
This is getting sad at this point. Just because there are a greater number of posters disagreeing with Martel doesn't mean he is wrong. In fact, I agree with pretty much everything he's posted so far.

I've seen him post a statistical argument, which was waived away and as a result mostly makes any opinion based arguments largely irrelevant. gmaleron I'd like to see you refute the numbers that, contrary to what you assert, actually do have a large amount of impact on the game and theoreticals.

I'm also confused as to why the OP didn't make this a poll thread... Smacks of being afraid of what the answer might be to me.

Indeed. Martel might come off as a downer (probably due to horrid Riptide/Wave Serpent trauma in the past), but he is not actually wrong.

Pretty much, he said everything I wanted to say... so I wouldn't really be adding to the conversation repeating the point.

The real best lists to deal with Riptides are the ones with vehicles with decent AVs and infantry models not worth very many points. It then becomes difficult for Riptides to have a large impact on the game. These lists can basically ignore them and so don't care how hard they are to kill.

But as soon as power armor or any other elite infantry enters the scene, they can pie plate 100-250 pts at a pop depending on the target. Losing 100-300 pts a shot is not sustainable, and so the Riptides must be silenced. And boy are they hard to silence. Especially for the very lists that they excel at blowing apart. That's why they run away with this comparison, imo.




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 gmaleron wrote:
Not ignoring statistics at all but I have played this game long enough and have NEVER seen a game, mine or other peoples where the statistical average was perfect for the entire game. I take it into account but don't rely heavily on it, and I only am arguing his points because the changes he is proposing are way to drastic and if you agree with that then so are you. If the Riptide got nerfed that badly then all other MC's including those from the "Mighty Imperium of Man" should to without question.

I've never given a specific numerical suggestion for the Riptide. So you don't know how bad or good any such proposition from me would be. I would support buffing the HBC to make it a more viable option. But the base chasis is just too good for its points, independent of weapon. The weapon issue is a separate issue to me. I like slots and options to be competitive, not for there to be a no-brainer pick like there is now.


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 gmaleron wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
The riptide is very strong against most targets, but send it up against any other monstrous creature and it will get killed.

If it was to pick on something it's own size it would get owned.

Swarm armies can give a Riptide heavy army fits to, especially Demon puppy spam as there are so many points tied up in x3 MC's it really effects the armies shot output. Where the Dreadknight in particular excels with it being so cheap in points cost, and where both the Dread and Wraithknight excel thanks to being dual purpose. Why I have them ranked Dreadknight-Wraithiknight then Riptide based on overall performance and capabilities.

Trying to fulfill their "dual purpose" is what gets the Dreadknight and Wraithknight shot to pieces. Not mention the armor on the Wraithknight is a joke. Poison totally owns them. Poison weapons don't scratch a Riptide.

" unwilling to change up your tactics or strategy"

I already showed you how your solution is a total failure. It's a waste of 355 pts, and it is not a solid TAC option. In fact, you have given zero usable advice on what can actually silence a Riptide in a timely manner. Timely is important, because a few pie plates cripples an meq list.

" Tactica threads on how to beat them with Blood Angels "

I don't think anyone there knows, either. Yeah, there's the turn 1 assault formation, but that formation completely fails against other lists with HTH capability. Here's the fundamental problem: you can adjust your list deployment to compensate for drop pods, but I can't adjust my list to compensate for drawing a Tau opponent. If I could, I'd probably just use that formation every game against Tau.

"where the statistical average was perfect for the entire game"

It doesn't have to be for individual games. In fact, I've even used the phrase "over many games" a couple of times. My computations are true across many, many games played by many, many players. The local results you and I experience mean nothing. For every time you see a Riptide die to the plasma Sternguard, there are six or seven times they don't kill it, and probably one time where they do no wounds at all. That's what statistics tell you, not things about individual games.

"your continued crying about Riptides is annoying "

Riptides are annoying. I'd call it even, but I have to stare at them for hours at a time sometimes. You can ignore me. I can't ignore them.

Martel you seem to wish for a Tau gunline/Riptide that's weak enough so you can get enough Plasma armed dudes in Rapid Fire range (12 inches) to kill the Riptide.

If that were the case, how do you think such a list would fare if instead of your merry Plasmagun marines riding in ther Rhinos it was facing a bunch (10-12) of TWC or Necron Wraiths, which are faster, more resilient and more deadly once they get inside those 12 inches?

Also, you seem fixated on the Riptide with FnP who novas every round for 3+ inv. save, despite a singificant number of Tau players (AFAIK), especially at top level not running FnP and/or not nova-ing every round due to the risks involved. I however agree there is a problem with the IA Riptide that it doesn't need to use the Nova for offense (HBC Riptide hits like a wet rag without Nova).

I also think you're greatly exagerrating the impact a Riptide has on the game, unless your list is foot marines. Most marines that aren't using Drop Pods should be in Rhinos. An IA Riptide cannot pop a Rhino at range in a round unless you have very good rolls (either it explodes or you hit all your 3 shots and roll 4+ for pen). HYMP Broadsides only have 36" range , and using Railsides or Railheads means the Tau player already is handicapping himself.

Also, have you tried going for the markerlights? A riptide without Markerlights has just a BS3 S8/9 AP2 pie plate, non-cover ignoring.

LordBlades wrote:
Martel you seem to wish for a Tau gunline/Riptide that's weak enough so you can get enough Plasma armed dudes in Rapid Fire range (12 inches) to kill the Riptide.

If that were the case, how do you think such a list would fare if instead of your merry Plasmagun marines riding in ther Rhinos it was facing a bunch (10-12) of TWC or Necron Wraiths, which are faster, more resilient and more deadly once they get inside those 12 inches?

Also, you seem fixated on the Riptide with FnP who novas every round for 3+ inv. save, despite a singificant number of Tau players (AFAIK), especially at top level not running FnP and/or not nova-ing every round due to the risks involved. I however agree there is a problem with the IA Riptide that it doesn't need to use the Nova for offense (HBC Riptide hits like a wet rag without Nova).

I also think you're greatly exagerrating the impact a Riptide has on the game, unless your list is foot marines. Most marines that aren't using Drop Pods should be in Rhinos. An IA Riptide cannot pop a Rhino at range in a round unless you have very good rolls (either it explodes or you hit all your 3 shots and roll 4+ for pen). HYMP Broadsides only have 36" range , and using Railsides or Railheads means the Tau player already is handicapping himself.

Also, have you tried going for the markerlights? A riptide without Markerlights has just a BS3 S8/9 AP2 pie plate, non-cover ignoring.

JUST a S8/9 AP2 pie plate? SERIOUSLY?! JUST?! Are we really at a point where that is considered not very good in this game? BS3 doesn't seem to hurt IG all that much with all of their pie plates.

Martel is right, he presented the math and I don't think there is much more to say on the matter.

I could shoot 5 lasguns at a Riptide and kill it potentially. That does not mean that I am going to expect, plan, or rely on that EVER happening. 40k IS a dice game but to say that averages have no bearing on balancing units is just idiocy plain and simple, THAT mindset is why we have a game that is currently so unbalanced that the game can easily be over in the list building. 7th was looking like a step in the right direction with balance betweens codices, it wasn't PERFECT because perfect is impossible but we should strive for better all the time in everything.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Riptide could do to lose a wound. The most telling point to me is that in almost two years, no matter what the points level, every single Tau army I've seen, from pickup game to top tournament, 750pt games to 2000pt games, includes at least one. It might as well be a "1+" selection.

In defense of the Riptide, it does have the single coolest model in the game. Why wouldn't you want to play with it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sidstyler wrote:



Which is a problem with 6th/7th more than Tau, Ignores Cover is way too prevalent. That said, as long as it's in the game then Tau should have access to it, being the only dedicated shooting army.

Fixed. As I understand it, the Tau are the only Codex with 0 effective melee units. Given that we're the only army guaranteed to fold in CC no matter what we're fighting, we have to be able to kill things in cover to win games. Period.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Martel you seem to wish for a Tau gunline/Riptide that's weak enough so you can get enough Plasma armed dudes in Rapid Fire range (12 inches) to kill the Riptide.

If that were the case, how do you think such a list would fare if instead of your merry Plasmagun marines riding in ther Rhinos it was facing a bunch (10-12) of TWC or Necron Wraiths, which are faster, more resilient and more deadly once they get inside those 12 inches?

Also, you seem fixated on the Riptide with FnP who novas every round for 3+ inv. save, despite a singificant number of Tau players (AFAIK), especially at top level not running FnP and/or not nova-ing every round due to the risks involved. I however agree there is a problem with the IA Riptide that it doesn't need to use the Nova for offense (HBC Riptide hits like a wet rag without Nova).

I also think you're greatly exagerrating the impact a Riptide has on the game, unless your list is foot marines. Most marines that aren't using Drop Pods should be in Rhinos. An IA Riptide cannot pop a Rhino at range in a round unless you have very good rolls (either it explodes or you hit all your 3 shots and roll 4+ for pen). HYMP Broadsides only have 36" range , and using Railsides or Railheads means the Tau player already is handicapping himself.

Also, have you tried going for the markerlights? A riptide without Markerlights has just a BS3 S8/9 AP2 pie plate, non-cover ignoring.

JUST a S8/9 AP2 pie plate? SERIOUSLY?! JUST?! Are we really at a point where that is considered not very good in this game? BS3 doesn't seem to hurt IG all that much with all of their pie plates.

Martel is right, he presented the math and I don't think there is much more to say on the matter.

I could shoot 5 lasguns at a Riptide and kill it potentially. That does not mean that I am going to expect, plan, or rely on that EVER happening. 40k IS a dice game but to say that averages have no bearing on balancing units is just idiocy plain and simple, THAT mindset is why we have a game that is currently so unbalanced that the game can easily be over in the list building. 7th was looking like a step in the right direction with balance betweens codices, it wasn't PERFECT because perfect is impossible but we should strive for better all the time in everything.

It's good, but not amazing. A Leman Russ has a S8 AP3 with Ordnance and no Gets Hot at 72" for 150 points. A Knight Paladin (which is a unit any IoM army can field) has 2 such blasts at bs 4 for 375 points in addition to being arguably more survivable to shooting and having way better melee potential than 2 Riptides. Now, Riptide blast is AP2, but I can't really think of many units with a 2+ save that are worth fielding and are not multi-wound MCs (only Tau Broadsides off the top of my head). So yeah, in my book a 200+ point unit that only brings a bs3 s8 pie crust lateto the table (and that's all a Ripide without Markerlights does) is decent, but in no way great.
The root of my problem with Martel's stance as a Tau player: he wants arguably one of the 2 best units in the Tau codex brought down to the level where it can be handled without much trouble by an average list from an IMO below average codex. If that were to happen though, what is Tau to do vs. good lists from good codexes?

Now I can empathize with feeling the codex you want to play falls short of the enemy codex, but.one has to remember BA is IoM. If you want a more competitive list you can ally in any of the good stuff: cent stars, grav bikes, knights, you name it. Tau on the other hand has to stand mostly on its own.

So compared to an av 14/13/11, bs3 box, that doesn't have a jet pack, doesn't remain at full operational capacity as it loses 'wounds', or we can compare it to the super heavy walker that costs even more and has a str D attack in melee.

After thinking about it, I can see why the Riptide is only decent when compared to them.

Also, why shouldn't a tac army from any codex not be able to handle any unit, and why should you have to ally in things that aren't the army you want to play just to deal with one unit?

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
So compared to an av 14/13/11, bs3 box, that doesn't have a jet pack, doesn't remain at full operational capacity as it loses 'wounds', or we can compare it to the super heavy walker that costs even more and has a str D attack in melee.

After thinking about it, I can see why the Riptide is only decent when compared to them.

Also, why shouldn't a tac army from any codex not be able to handle any unit, and why should you have to ally in things that aren't the army you want to play just to deal with one unit?

When judging the balance of a codex, do you not take into account alk the rules the respective army has? One of the rules for IoM armies is that they are Battle Brothers with any other IoM army. Why do you think that specific rule should be ignored whwn discussing the balance of an IoM codex vs. a xeno codex with no Battle Brothers.

Also, as a personal opinion, which I've een echoed by quite a few people, TAC is dead.

Yes and you're taking that too far saying IoM is one Codex. People didn't buy models to play SPACE WOLVES AND BLOOD ANGELS W/ IMPERIAL GUARD!

They paid for one faction they liked.

 Quickjager wrote:
Yes and you're taking that too far saying IoM is one Codex. People didn't buy models to play SPACE WOLVES AND BLOOD ANGELS W/ IMPERIAL GUARD!

They paid for one faction they liked.

Then if you balance Space Marineds, Grey Knights and Imperial Guard to each hold their own vs xeno codices and then people start showing up with units cherry picked fir synergy from all 3 codexes how well do you think that works for the xenos? For mechanical purposes IoM is 80% one big codex.

Like it or not, the number and quality of allies is a factor in how good an army is.

Yea and they already addressed that in competitive play, so who cares? What you're talking about hurts two people

1. New Players: Your codex is weak? But you already got the models? Shell out another $150 for models you don't like.
2. Fluffy Players: Your list is themed? You like the lore? But you want to have a fighting chance? Nope.

Your attitude is horrible to the people who play for fun, you know how many tournies I've been in? One local; ten people tops. I'm not the competitive player, but I'm forced to play people who are more often than not. Yea I can ask them to turn down their game, they do! But I feel bad for limiting them from playing the mindset they want to. The Competitve scene has already shown it will address issues that "ruin" the game, they limit sources, no Unbound, Invisibility nerfs, they all happen anyway whether its EN DA RULEZ or not.

As expected the thread has dissolved into Riptide hate.

Anyway...

Some thoughts on the Riptide in combinations with Tau in general.

Tau are the only army in the game (period) that plays correctly.
40k is, for all intents and purposes, medieval warfare in a sci-fi setting with some bits added on.
In a medieval war setting archers were one of the best units because they forced the enemy to approach them and could move away.
In this analogy replace archers with Tau,
A gun-line army might be no fun to play against but it will always be the best strategy on an open map.

That being said the table should be more a kin to a city setting. This forces the Tau player to move into other positions.

I would like to point out this is a fault of the game, it wants to be medieval war in space and therefore Tau will always have the best strategy to fight, unless the game changes (we seem to generally accept this as way of playing the game because the rules somewhat dictate that)

Moving on.

The Riptide.

I appreciate all the hate aimed at them, they are hardy and have range.

My opinion for Martel (not to single you out but you made a fair few comments) would be, 'If you cant kill the Riptide effectively, then concentrate on the other parts of the army.'

This will, regardless of the Riptide, have a dramatic impact on the Tau army.

A possible suggestion here would be to use cheaper squads in a semi-suicidal fashion.

For example, a SM command Squad with 5 flamers in a drop-pod is 160 points. This will wipe out most squads Tau have access too, through sheer number of wounds.
For 180 you can have the same with meltaguns and ruin any tank or T4 multiwound model.
In both cases it's on your terms.

I wouldn't honestly recommend sternguard with combi-plasmas as Riptide hunters, use their hellfire ammo.

As for BA specifically.
I saw their rules recently and can say they're not shy in good stuff.

Assault squads with meltas
Command Squads with specials and Jump-packs

Use those jump-packing specials to their fullest.

Not saying the Riptide will necessarily go down, but definitely take this advice and stop fixating on it.

On it's own the riptide wont be as much of a threat.

Guys, is anyone going to talk about the Dreadknight or Wraithknight? I get that there are many Tau haters in this thread but discuss the other aspects too.

LordBlades wrote:

It's good, but not amazing. A Leman Russ has a S8 AP3 with Ordnance and no Gets Hot at 72" for 150 points. A Knight Paladin (which is a unit any IoM army can field) has 2 such blasts at bs 4 for 375 points in addition to being arguably more survivable to shooting and having way better melee potential than 2 Riptides. Now, Riptide blast is AP2, but I can't really think of many units with a 2+ save that are worth fielding and are not multi-wound MCs (only Tau Broadsides off the top of my head). So yeah, in my book a 200+ point unit that only brings a bs3 s8 pie crust lateto the table (and that's all a Ripide without Markerlights does) is decent, but in no way great.

I find this preposterous. How many threads you ever see anywhere complaining how LRBT is overpowered? None, because almost any list has the tools to deal with a Leman Russ.

Also, AP2 is pretty big deal. Sure enough, Terminators aren't worth fielding (in large part because AP2 blast units like Riptide), and bonus damage to vehicles is not that relevant since vehicles tend to suck (again, in large part because units like Riptide are so superior to vehicles), however, many IC's rely on 2+ armour save and AP2 blast can insta-gib many of them.

LordBlades wrote:

The root of my problem with Martel's stance as a Tau player: he wants arguably one of the 2 best units in the Tau codex brought down to the level where it can be handled without much trouble by an average list from an IMO below average codex. If that were to happen though, what is Tau to do vs. good lists from good codexes?

Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?

LordBlades wrote:

Now I can empathize with feeling the codex you want to play falls short of the enemy codex, but.one has to remember BA is IoM. If you want a more competitive list you can ally in any of the good stuff: cent stars, grav bikes, knights, you name it. Tau on the other hand has to stand mostly on its own.

See, this is a problem with unit like Riptide. You have to list-tailor against it. You don't have to list-tailor to defeat Terminators, Leman Russes, Carnifexes or anything else pro-Riptide crowd always whips out in ill-fitting comparisons with Riptide.

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

Dreadknight excels at close range, where does that put it? In front of all your guns.

Wraithknight excels at close range, where does that put it? In front of all your guns.

Riptide excels at long range, where does that put it? Out of range all your guns (other than 48"+ weapons).

All are built around a durable chassis, 2 have options to improve durability, 1 of which can remove it from play, the other will lose a single wound.

Which one sends high strength-low ap large blast templates down field?

Can you see where this is going?

SGTPozy wrote:
Guys, is anyone going to talk about the Dreadknight or Wraithknight? I get that there are many Tau haters in this thread but discuss the other aspects too.

I've already talked about them. They show up and die. If BA can kill these units, I'm SURE that more potent codices can as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Dreadknight excels at close range, where does that put it? In front of all your guns.

Wraithknight excels at close range, where does that put it? In front of all your guns.

Riptide excels at long range, where does that put it? Out of range all your guns (other than 48"+ weapons).

All are built around a durable chassis, 2 have options to improve durability, 1 of which can remove it from play, the other will lose a single wound.

Which one sends high strength-low ap large blast templates down field?

Can you see where this is going?

This. So much this. If Tau players can't understand why this is maddening, I'm sorry.

"'If you cant kill the Riptide effectively, then concentrate on the other parts of the army.'"

With all due respect, I've tried this, but I just can't let these things run around and nuke me every turn. I take a lot of losses even getting into assault with Tau, who fold in one turn of combat, which is the perfect time to drop yet ANOTHER template on top of my unit. It's a lose/lose/lose proposition. Tau are weak in HTH, but they are so weak that they can game out the outcome perfectly and capitalize on it. I honestly wish tac marines were just as bad in HTH as fire warriors so they would also reliably lose just like them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

I already suggested a buff to the HBC. I suspect other units in the Tau codex could use something since I never see them. Ever.

Martel, there's something that you need to understand; not everything is about you!

SGTPozy wrote:

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

No, I am suggesting balancing the Tau. Obviously, that would include nerffing currently too powerful units, like Riptide.

Minimum change to Riptide would be T7 3+ W4. Better change would be making it to AV13 walker with 4 HP.

Backfire wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

No, I am suggesting balancing the Tau. Obviously, that would include nerffing currently too powerful units, like Riptide.

Minimum change to Riptide would be T7 3+ W4. Better change would be making it to AV13 walker with 4 HP.

Or the most suitable nerf which would be to prevent it from buying a FNP save and change the 3++ to a 4++. That would make it more like the (apparently) balanced Dreadknight.

SGTPozy wrote:

Backfire wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

"Here's a crazy suggestion: maybe the rest of the Tau codex should be brought to the level where they're not dependent on one or two units?"

Are you suggesting a buff to Tau? IoM players will not be happy with that

No, I am suggesting balancing the Tau. Obviously, that would include nerffing currently too powerful units, like Riptide.

Minimum change to Riptide would be T7 3+ W4. Better change would be making it to AV13 walker with 4 HP.

Or the most suitable nerf which would be to prevent it from buying a FNP save and change the 3++ to a 4++. That would make it more like the (apparently) balanced Dreadknight.

Yeah, that would bring it much more in line with other MCs for sure. It would still be devastating, but actually be vulnerable. I'd also remove the wound from failing Nova charge and the silly gets hot shenanigans to compensate so Tau players only have worry about incoming damage.

Boniface wrote:
As expected the thread has dissolved into Riptide hate.

A gun-line army might be no fun to play against but it will always be the best strategy on an open map.

That being said the table should be more a kin to a city setting. This forces the Tau player to move into other positions.

I would like to point out this is a fault of the game, it wants to be medieval war in space and therefore Tau will always have the best strategy to fight, unless the game changes (we seem to generally accept this as way of playing the game because the rules somewhat dictate that)

Moving on.

Agree 100%.

The Riptide.

I appreciate all the hate aimed at them, they are hardy and have range.

My opinion for Martel (not to single you out but you made a fair few comments) would be, 'If you cant kill the Riptide effectively, then concentrate on the other parts of the army.'

This will, regardless of the Riptide, have a dramatic impact on the Tau army.

Here is were things get a bit off. If you ignore the Riptide and concentrate on the other parts of the army, you are allowing a highly, highly effective weapons system to drop pie plates of DOOooM!!! every turn on your army. To think that you will be able to effectively engage other parts of his army while ignoring this very capable weapon system is fool hardy at best.

A possible suggestion here would be to use cheaper squads in a semi-suicidal fashion.

For example, a SM command Squad with 5 flamers in a drop-pod is 160 points. This will wipe out most squads Tau have access too, through sheer number of wounds.
For 180 you can have the same with meltaguns and ruin any tank or T4 multiwound model.
In both cases it's on your terms.

This is making more then a few assumptions, and I'd point out that a 12 model Fire Warrior Squad is still cheaper then either of these options, and you can only shoot at one squad at a time. Perhaps you could kill a whole squad of Fire Warriors in one turn, but the rest of his army will kill that Command Squad. Trying this kind of tactic on Crisis Suits could work, but... well, they are pretty resilient. Or the Riptide will just drop a pie plate of DOOooom! on it and that will be that.

I wouldn't honestly recommend sternguard with combi-plasmas as Riptide hunters, use their hellfire ammo.

I have to chuckle at this one. Sure, you could do that, and hopefully get within double tap range. Wanna crunch numbers? 10 Sternguard with Hellfire Rounds double tapping at a Riptide: 20 shots, 13.3 hit, 11.08 wound, 9.23 are armor saved, leaving the Riptide with 1.85 wounds. You could round that up to 2 if you want. Tau player's turn: Pie Plate of DOOOooom! Your 275 point unit managed to get 2 wounds on a Riptide. Do you have three more units of Sternguard in Drop Pods to throw at it?

As for BA specifically.
I saw their rules recently and can say they're not shy in good stuff.

Assault squads with meltas
Command Squads with specials and Jump-packs

Use those jump-packing specials to their fullest.

Not saying the Riptide will necessarily go down, but definitely take this advice and stop fixating on it.

Jump packs? Really? It's like throwing good money after bad. I think the Drop Pod Suicide Squads have a better chance of doing something here then any unit with Jump Packs moving ACROSS THE BOARD where the ENTIRE TAU ARMY can shoot at them. Oh, you mean Deepstrike them close? So they can be in a nice, tightly grouped circle of hugging Power Armor for the Pie Plate of DOOOooom!? Also, they don't pack enough Melta or Fusion guns to even put a dent in the Riptide. I guess you also forgot how easy it is for the Tau to get Intercept on the guys that just Deepstrike'd onto the table...

On it's own the riptide wont be as much of a threat.

So your general strategy here is to ignore the Riptide while engaging the rest of the Tau army. In theory, and from an arm chair quarterback sort of way, this makes 100% sense. In actual game play, it doesn't work. You cannot ignore something that is throwing out 3 large blast template at S7 AP 2 anywhere on the board during every shooting phase. One well-placed template can remove an entire squad of MEQ, and he has three shots with it. In this case, a low BS actually works in his favor as it can scatter onto other units.

Martel732 speaks the truth of things when it comes to a Riptide. He has supported it with irrefutable math. There is no Silver Bullet that can be used against it as the problem can't be approached in a vacuum. That is, it's never "just a Riptide", it's a Riptide with another Riptide and some Crisis suits, along with a whole bunch of Fire Warriors. The other army has a lot of stuff too, but it's all about the effectiveness of the units, and point for point, a Riptide is one of the most effective units in the game. It usually takes something that costs x2 the points of a Riptide to destroy a Riptide. The fact that you can't reliably get that many points of anything close enough to a Riptide to be effective becomes another problem. Each meta is different, and maybe the Tau player in any particular meta is a poor or unlucky player, and the Drop Pod Suicide Squad works against him. A good Tau player? Will never let it happen.

SGTPozy wrote:
Martel, there's something that you need to understand; not everything is about you!

At the same time, I am an IoM player and I have suggested buffs. Sorry if that is inconvenient for you. It's automatically about me when you start making blanket statements about IoM players.

Also another fun fact: invisibility is broken. We all know this. The same plasma Sternguard squad we are talking about inflicts 1.85 wounds on invisible centurions with no source of FNP. This is arguably a better outcome than the 2.7 W dealt to the Riptide, since 1.8 W has a solid chance of taking out a Centurion. It's also flabbergasting to me that the Riptide takes *less than 50%* more wounds from plasma Sternguard than INVISIBLE Centurions. Visible Centurions are getting massacred by this attack. Also note that invisible Centurions are a very expensive squad as well.

" Drop Pod Suicide Squad works against him. A good Tau player? Will never let it happen."

Drop pod suicide squads don't work that well against my BA; I can't imagine how they are owning Tau. Good job! You just nuked a Rhino! Maybe a predator on a good day. Now die.

"As for BA specifically.
I saw their rules recently and can say they're not shy in good stuff.

Assault squads with meltas
Command Squads with specials and Jump-packs

Use those jump-packing specials to their fullest. "

If I were actually gaming for Tau, I'd drop a ton of Frag cannon Furioso dreadnoughts in drop pods all over the place. Dreadnoughts have the privilege of being immune to pulse rifles and not being vulnerable to the pie plate of doom.

Not only do I not have the models for this, this is in no way a TAC list. We are back to hard core list tailoring. Jump pack units are just going to be massacred, as pointed out above. Yeah, I can ally in a Tiggystar and be like every other marine list. If I need a special character to counter something, that's a bad sign.

"A possible suggestion here would be to use cheaper squads in a semi-suicidal fashion. "

One day, Xeno generals will learn that suicide tactics for expensive Astartes models is not the path to victory. Well, at least not for the Astartes player. In some ways, the drop pod is available to lists that can make the least effective use of it. I'd much rather drop pod in guardsmen with special weapons. The cheaper the better. Because the way the game plays now, power armor might as well be flak armor.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/607894.page
Check out all Marine lists in the top 10 of BAO that use the TiggyStar (Spoiler alert: None that can be seen in the link). This isn't an isolated incident. A quick google check of the competitive scene of 2014 will show that the almighty Triptide battle list isn't that almighty, even when facing off against Space Marines.

Maybe your BA codex is sorely underpowered. Maybe you're doing it wrong. Who knows. But I would think if you spent half as much energy TheoryHammering how to kill a Riptide successfully as you do the opposite, you might have better results.

Would BA assault marines really be much better off vs wraith or dread knights?

Sure the riptide kills them better at range (it should still only manage 2-4 kills a turn realistically if you are expecting a pie plate), but the other two will quite handily beat their own points worth of assault marines and then some.

Although the knights have to expose themselves more to fulfill their role, this is not entirely a bad thing: weapons shot at the most durable units in your army are not shooting your other stuff. If all those heavy weapons are going at the wraithknight, then those waveserpents are going to have a good time.

Being further forward also lets them control the board much more than a riptide, and also potentially gives them the possibility of getting more objectives and linebreaker. Having a giant hovering MC in the middle of board who can jump 12 inches and punch out most targets can really limit the movement of the opposition, or tie up those scoring units if it is late in the game.

One point not yet mentioned is how 7th has promoted mech armies once again, and the impact it has on the three mentioned models.

An iontide is statistically not going to kill a rhino a turn. If presented with a heavy mech list its worth is greatly diminished. On the other hand the knights are a massive threat to all vehicles, and if they do take out a transport with their shooting, then they can make use of the assault phase too.

All 3 are powerful units, and their potential to be the best changes depending on the army opposing them.

I've heard enough about riptides though, and pretty much everything that can be said has been done so.

I'd rather hear people's thoughts between the wraith and dread knights as they are much more similar in nature.

I personally find the wraithknight to be the superior choice, however I face them a lot, whereas I rarely see dreadknights.
The T8 and 6 wounds really makes me favour the wraith though.

There's no denying the Wraithknight is more versatile, but it pays dearly for that with its vastly inferior save. The bottom line to me is that it's much easier to trump the Wraithknight's defenses than either Riptide or Dreadknight.

The role of the Dreadknight makes it the weakest of the three. It's basically a glorified furioso dreadnought that is an MC instead of a walker.

I don't expect BA ASM to beat any of these MCs in any way. Because I accept that ASM are terrible.

"Having a giant hovering MC in the middle of board"

How long do you expect it to stay there when it is a squishier target than WS to many units?

"But I would think if you spent half as much energy TheoryHammering how to kill a Riptide successfully as you do the opposite, you might have better results."

It's one and the same. As soon as I find a method that doesn't fail, I've found one that succeeds.

Boniface wrote:
As expected the thread has dissolved into Riptide hate.

Basically this, typical people who claim they cant beat something so it must be overpowerd, and as usual when shown examples from their own Codex that are on equal or even stronger footing they are ignored because god forbid if their stuff cant be overpowered. I can agree with that the Ion Accelerator needs a point raise but not anything else as when compared to other MC's who have equal to or even nastier abilities it is balanced. Not at all trying to derail this thread but its kind of sad that peoples only answer to the Riptide is to nerf it to the point it is useless. Also treating the IoM Codex's as one army is not out of the question as because they can all be Battle Brothers it is a logical and reasonable way to go about things especially since so many people use/abuse it.

Back to the other 2 the Dreadknight is not the weakest of the three based on one good reason, it is the CHEAPEST out of the three allowing you take more of them and to have more parts in your army to support them. In regards to the Wraithiknights taking x3 of them is dirty because they are the most durable and well rounded out of the three as not only are they as fast as a Dreadknight but combined with their high toughness, good firepower, durability in both shooting and CC, solid save and access to some of the best supporting units around is what makes them one of if not the nastiest out of the three.

"Having a giant hovering MC in the middle of board"

How long do you expect it to stay there when it is a squishier target than WS to many units?

First off, by simply being there it effects the opponents game and forces them to react. There is value in this.

Secondly, squishier is relative. With T8 and 6W it can last an incredibly long time, and makes for the perfect distraction carnifex, especially if you find a way to give it a cover or invulnerable save.
You seem to be implying that a wraithknight will go down quickly. I put it to you that very few armies can deal with a couple of wraithknights in a timely fashion. A wraithknight out of cover will usually take at least 12 krak missiles to kill, double that if your board has any sizable ruins.

Whilst you are trying to do this, they control the middle of the board, potentially limiting access to objectives, and give the serpents time to take out the heavy weapons/ enemy scoring potential.

vastly inferior save.

T8 counts for a lot with regards to survivability. Plasma for example is twice as likely to get a wound on a riptide or dreadknight.
Poison is bad news of course, but on the plus side gravguns hurt a little less.

 gmaleron wrote:

Boniface wrote:
As expected the thread has dissolved into Riptide hate.

Basically this, typical people who claim they cant beat something so it must be overpowerd, and as usual when shown examples from their own Codex that are on equal or even stronger footing they are ignored because god forbid if their stuff cant be overpowered. I can agree with that the Ion Accelerator needs a point raise but not anything else as when compared to other MC's who have equal to or even nastier abilities it is balanced. Not at all trying to derail this thread but its kind of sad that peoples only answer to the Riptide is to nerf it to the point it is useless. Also treating the IoM Codex's as one army is not out of the question as because they can all be Battle Brothers it is a logical and reasonable way to go about things especially since so many people use/abuse it.

Back to the other 2 the Dreadknight is not the weakest of the three based on one good reason, it is the CHEAPEST out of the three allowing you take more of them and to have more parts in your army to support them. In regards to the Wraithiknights taking x3 of them is dirty because they are the most durable and well rounded out of the three as not only are they as fast as a Dreadknight but combined with their high toughness, good firepower, durability in both shooting and CC, solid save and access to some of the best supporting units around is what makes them one of if not the nastiest out of the three.

40k 7e is a shooty game, especially in pickup games where it's rarely urban, and where terrain is lighter -- so superior shooty units are generally better than superior melee units. Riptides are one of the best shooty units in the game.

People hate all the MCs of all the factions other than their own that are highly damaging and/or very durable. And, people especially hate units or groups of models that are so good that they are must-takes. If you play against Tau, 95% of the time, there will be Riptides. That's not the Tau player's fault. I don't think it's possible to have a thread about Riptides or Wave Serpents where there isn't Riptide or Wave Serpent hate. If you don't like seeing criticism about your favorite, must-have model, avoid these threads

It's totally fair to say that one faction or another is better based on either allies or available armies (just like Riptides are much better with support). However, the topic wasn't Eldar vs GK vs Tau.

OTOH, I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf.

"With T8 and 6W it can last an incredibly long time"

Not if you shoot it with the right weapons. That's my problem with the Riptide. There ARE no right weapons other than Tiggystar grav cents I guess.

"A wraithknight out of cover will usually take at least 12 krak missiles to kill, double that if your board has any sizable ruins. "

That's incredibly fast compared to a Riptide or Dreadknight. I'm saying the Wraithknight goes down fast compared to 2+ save MCs, not compared to chumpo infantry. But that's what we're comparing in this thread.

"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

It's also debatable whether Necrons as a whole got worse or actually better in 7th edition as well, so surprises might happen.

That's incredibly fast compared to a Riptide or Dreadknight.

You yourself stated "if you use the right weapons", the exact same thing can be said of any of the riptide.

Once ap2 weapons get involved, especially lower strength ones, the wraithknight becomes much tougher than the other 2 options.

Tau plasma for example. It would take 18 str 6 plasma hits to bring down a riptide using its 5+ invulnerable save. The wraith knight needs 54 of the same shots, even without a cover or invulnerable save.
It is not until str 9 ap 2 weapons that the wraithknight starts to take more wounds per shot than the riptide, but even then it still has 2 more wounds so the received comparative damage is overall fairly even.

Against non AP1-3 weapons, the riptide and the wraithknight perform equally well vs str 7, the riptide is better vs str 8+, and the wraith knight is better vs str 6 or less.
Again, the wraithknight has 2 more wounds to consider.

So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say.

They both have counters, but some of them are different.

"So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say. "

I can list several weapons that are good against the Wraithknight: Lascannon, krak missiles, anything poison, bright lances, dark lances. Can you list some that are actually GOOD against the riptide? Generating wounds means very little if it saving 89% or 78% of them.

We can go back and look at our drop Sternguard vs the Wraithknight.

20 shots * .66666 * .33333 = 4.4 wounds delivered

Against a Wraithknight with the 5++ invuln, this is still 2.9 wounds, which is greater than the weighted average for Ritpides. The worst part is that the plasma gun is not a particularly good anti-Wraithknight weapon.

Look at Sternguard poison ammo:

20 shots *.666666* .833333 * .333333 = 3.7 wounds vs Wraithknight

20 shots *.6666 *. 83333 *.166666 *.66666 = 1.2 wounds vs Ritpide


So only if I'm foolish enough to fire S6 and below weapons at the Wraithknight does is suddenly become super durable. That's an easy fix: don't do that. I'm still searching for an effective anti-Riptide weapon. I can shoot the Riptide with poison, it doesn't care. High STR, it doesn't care. Medium STR lots of shots with AP 2 is better, but still is sadly lacking as my sternguard analysis showed.

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

You need to get the chip off your shoulder about IoM. It does NOT make for a good conversation when you are dismissing and diminishing the opposition in such a way.

The point is, if the Dreadknight is OP then the Riptide most certainly is and the idea is to bring all things into line with one another. If you think the Dreadknight is OP then support your position rather than trying to deflect criticism of the Riptide. I am no huge fan of the Dreadknight and I am sure you could make some good arguments as to why you think it is OP, but you haven't. Instead you keep on defending the Riptide with broad empty statements.

There was no intention of a real comparison in this topic anyway so I guess it really doesn't matter, this topic was made to instigate both sides into an argument.

You want my opinion? They are all to powerful if not over powered. Riptides can erase entire elite units in one shot every turn, they can quickly reduce the enemy army to ash BY THEM SELVES. If you are up against two of them then you might as well accept that you will have to squeeze a victory out through Maelstrom, if you are playing Maelstrom. This is of course only if you are playing a MEQ or TEQ based army, which just happen to be half of the armies in the game. I don't mind the Riptide AS much when I am playing my Tyranids, but sadly for me the rest of the Tau codex is pretty apt at killing my hordes or plasmaing my TMCs. No I don't spam Flyrants because I actually like to play a game, not just beat a puppy and even if I did that is not what is being talked about. Tau are probably one of the few if not only armies left in the game that can truely build a TAC list because their codex has a decent internal balance and play extremely well to the strengths of the current edition. Tau play in one phase in reality, the shooting phase, they can ignore movement, psychic, and assault phases. The Riptide doesn't have to subject itself to anything it doesn't want to, you can bubble wrap if to protect it from Deepstrike, you can blast anything on the table that could be a potential threat from almost anywhere on the board, you can move fast enough to flee from assault units for the most part, even if it only buys you ONE turn that is enough to do some serious damage. Riptides can be killed, I don't think anyone is arguing they are invincible, what is being said is that they can take to much damage, deal out to much damage, and can easily control the flow of battle from anywhere on the board WHILE being apart of an army that already dominates the most prominent phase of 7th edition. Riptides aren't so expensive that you are required to sacrifice a great deal in order to field them.

Dreadknights are an alpha striking beast that are going to kill almost anything you point them at, their major downside is that they have to put themselves into dangers way in order to do so. They are decent at shooting, decent survivability, and great melee potential. They can shunt to any location on the board and put down some punishing fire power on any enemy unit the choose, BUT they have to put themselves within 24" of the enemies line in order to do so which leaves them vulnerable to counter attacks. They are in an extremely elite army that struggles with hordes of enemy units and can be drowned out by weight of fire, Dreadknight included. They aren't an exceptionally fast army so I can more or less control the battle or at least force their hand in a couple of situations. They have to carefully plan out their movement phase to make sure that they don't get left chasing after fleeing enemies that they can't catch, they have to pick their shots because they have precious few even if they hit hard, they dominate any psychich phase they participate in and have access to the straight up broken invisibility. In assault they have army wide force, what on earth is going to stand up to that crap? Their major down side is being so elite and relatively slow that it is fairly easy as the enemy to avoid their deadlier units and piece out their army into manageable chunks.

I want to write a big ol' rant about the Wraithknight but you know what it doesn't get a great deal of hate? Because the WS is a MUCH more pressing issue than the possibility of the Wraithknight being a little to powerful.

"Riptides can be killed, I don't think anyone is arguing they are invincible, what is being said is that they can take to much damage, deal out to much damage, and can easily control the flow of battle from anywhere on the board WHILE being apart of an army that already dominates the most prominent phase of 7th edition"

That's exactly what I'm saying. My own math shows a point at which the Ritpide takes 5 wounds. It's just getting to that point in a game is kinda crazy. I have no problem with the Riptide being powerful, but it's just too much as it stands.

As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

What does the Dreadknight do that's so unmanageable? It causes some shooting damage and then may or may not get to assault. Even if you don't quite kill it, you can choose which unit gets assaulted.

Martel732 wrote:"So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say. "

I can list several weapons that are good against the Wraithknight: Lascannon, krak missiles, anything poison, bright lances, dark lances. Can you list some that are actually GOOD against the riptide? Generating wounds means very little if it saving 89% or 78% of them.

Big Blind Bill wrote:

That's incredibly fast compared to a Riptide or Dreadknight.

You yourself stated "if you use the right weapons", the exact same thing can be said of any of the riptide.

Once ap2 weapons get involved, especially lower strength ones, the wraithknight becomes much tougher than the other 2 options.

Tau plasma for example. It would take 18 str 6 plasma hits to bring down a riptide using its 5+ invulnerable save. The wraith knight needs 54 of the same shots, even without a cover or invulnerable save.
It is not until str 9 ap 2 weapons that the wraithknight starts to take more wounds per shot than the riptide, but even then it still has 2 more wounds so the received comparative damage is overall fairly even.

Against non AP1-3 weapons, the riptide and the wraithknight perform equally well vs str 7, the riptide is better vs str 8+, and the wraith knight is better vs str 6 or less.
Again, the wraithknight has 2 more wounds to consider.

So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say.

They both have counters, but some of them are different.

He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it.

I would also mention that Riptides are torn apart in close combat esp. with a few powerfists. However, from the luck you claim to have, all of your Death Company jump troops get blasted from the table before the game even starts, so I don't know.

As for Riptides being 'too' powerful - I again point to the tournament scene of 2014, where Triptide Tau lists weren't rolling face as you seem to believe would happen.

LordBlades wrote:
As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

Because I see very few Riptides w/o FNP and I see tons of Wraithknights without the scattershield. The gun downgrade forced with the scattershield makes it rare I think. The Eldar need more S6 shooting like a hole in the head.

"He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it. "

Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

What about a Dreadknight with a 4++ due to sanct

How does that compare with durability?

Martel732 wrote:
Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Perhaps you should redefine your definition of 'good', as what's 'good' for you is clearly not working.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
What about a Dreadknight with a 4++ due to sanct

How does that compare with durability?

Like crap, I bet.

So let's send in the token suicide STernguard plasma guys again.

20 shots * .66666 * .666666 *.5 = 4.4 wounds.

The 4++ is not standard on the Dreadknight, and I don't know if there is a way to guarantee it or not. AGainst the regular save:

20 shots *.6666. * .66666 * .666666 = 5.9 wounds.

Compared to our other two contenders, the Dreadknight is kind of a piece of junk in terms of durability against AP 2 weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andbreak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Perhaps you should redefine your definition of 'good', as what's 'good' for you is clearly not working.

So what would you specifically recommend? I'll take that under advisement and run the numbers.

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

Because I see very few Riptides w/o FNP and I see tons of Wraithknights without the scattershield. The gun downgrade forced with the scattershield makes it rare I think.

"He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it. "

Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Then how come I never see any Riptides with FnP,not on the table and certainly not in most recent top tier tournament lists?

What majes yourpersonal experience more valid than anyone else's?

Edit: The 3+ on Riptide isn't standard either, nor is there any way to guarantee it.

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

Because I see very few Riptides w/o FNP and I see tons of Wraithknights without the scattershield. The gun downgrade forced with the scattershield makes it rare I think.

"He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it. "

Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Then how come I never see any Riptides with FnP,not on the table and certainly not in most recent top tier tournament lists?

What majes yourpersonal experience more valid than anyone else's?

Why would they leave off FNP? I guess maybe if they can squeeze in another whole Riptide by taking FNP off the others. Adding the scattershield does nothing in the poison ammo case anyway, which is my go-to weapon against Wraithknights. If Wraithknights had a 2+ save, this tactic would go right down the tubes.

"Edit: The 3+ on Riptide isn't standard either, nor is there any way to guarantee it."

I took that into account in my calculations. Go back and look.

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
As a side note, why do we kerp conparing Riptides with FnP ti Wraithknights without Scattershields?

Because I see very few Riptides w/o FNP and I see tons of Wraithknights without the scattershield. The gun downgrade forced with the scattershield makes it rare I think.

"He answers your question before you asked it. You're refusing to see it. "

Those weapons are not what I'd consider "good".

Then how come I never see any Riptides with FnP,not on the table and certainly not in most recent top tier tournament lists?

What majes yourpersonal experience more valid than anyone else's?

Why would they leave off FNP? I guess maybe if they can squeeze in another whole Riptide by taking FNP off the others.

Points are at a premium. 35 points is another Tetra or 3 Pathfinders. Also, most of the time people would go for the juicuer parts of the Tau army first.

FnP is worth it if:
- People are focusing your Riptide
- The game is still tight enough so those roughly 2 extra HP make a difference.

More markerlights are useful in every circumstance, every game.

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

Dreadknights are good -- great, even -- but they are not feared. I don't recall a Tau or Eldar player who quaked in fear of a bunch of Dreadknights. Whatever faction, if you see a few Dreadknights, you're unlikely to go, "Oh no, should I just pack up and go home". OTOH, you see a line of Riptides or Wave Serpents, and that's exactly what some players think.

That is also a reflection of the codex -- anyone who thinks 7e GK are overpowered is nuts

Without FNP, the Riptide gets somewhat more manageable, I'm sure. Without FNP, forcing nova charges becomes more viable, even you end up not shooting at them. That's something. It still feels like not enough, but it's something.

But there is still the overriding issue of the Wraithknight and Dreadknight running TOWARDS the enemy gunline and the Riptide staying far in the back. Plus I've shown how poorly the Dreadknight fares against standard Imperial plasma weapons.

Martel732 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
What about a Dreadknight with a 4++ due to sanct

How does that compare with durability?

Like crap, I bet.

So let's send in the token suicide STernguard plasma guys again.

20 shots * .66666 * .666666 *.5 = 4.4 wounds.

The 4++ is not standard on the Dreadknight, and I don't know if there is a way to guarantee it or not. AGainst the regular save:

20 shots *.6666. * .66666 * .666666 = 5.9 wounds.

Compared to our other two contenders, the Dreadknight is kind of a piece of junk in terms of durability against AP 2 weapons.

[

its a Psyker power that comes stock on the DK, 1 warp charge cost, on pass increases invuln by 1. So its more reliable the more dice you throw at it, 1 dice its a 50/50

Talys wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
"I don't see how those two units and Taudar in general can survive their 7e codices without a nerf"

Well the Dreadknight got better in their 7th edition codex... But then again, they are IoM so they do have to be 'the best'.

Dreadknights are good -- great, even -- but they are not feared. I don't recall a Tau or Eldar player who quaked in fear of a bunch of Dreadknights. Whatever faction, if you see a few Dreadknights, you're unlikely to go, "Oh no, should I just pack up and go home". OTOH, you see a line of Riptides or Wave Serpents, and that's exactly what some players think.

That is also a reflection of the codex -- anyone who thinks 7e GK are overpowered is nuts

Having to get close automatically steps the GK down a power level, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
What about a Dreadknight with a 4++ due to sanct

How does that compare with durability?

Like crap, I bet.

So let's send in the token suicide STernguard plasma guys again.

20 shots * .66666 * .666666 *.5 = 4.4 wounds.

The 4++ is not standard on the Dreadknight, and I don't know if there is a way to guarantee it or not. AGainst the regular save:

20 shots *.6666. * .66666 * .666666 = 5.9 wounds.

Compared to our other two contenders, the Dreadknight is kind of a piece of junk in terms of durability against AP 2 weapons.

[

its a Psyker power that comes stock on the DK, 1 warp charge cost, on pass increases invuln by 1. So its more reliable the more dice you throw at it, 1 dice its a 50/50

That's pretty solid, so they can easy throw two dice and get it 75% of the time. But plasma still does a number on the thing.

Martel732 wrote:
"So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say. "

I can list several weapons that are good against the Wraithknight: Lascannon, krak missiles, anything poison, bright lances, dark lances. Can you list some that are actually GOOD against the riptide? Generating wounds means very little if it saving 89% or 78% of them.

The numbers I stated included armour saves. From the weapons you listed, lascannons and eldar lances are just as effective against riptides as wraithknights

20 shots * .66666 * .33333 = 4.4 wounds delivered

Against a Wraithknight with the 5++ invuln, this is still 2.9 wounds, which is greater than the weighted average for Ritpides. The worst part is that the plasma gun is not a particularly good anti-Wraithknight weapon.

You need to check your maths I'm afraid. The riptide without FNP is taking 5.926 wounds from this. With FNP included the riptide is still taking 3.95 wounds, but has 1 wounds less. Therefore, plasma is still more effective against riptides than wraithknights.

EDIT: Just to make it really clear, it would take 18 plasma hits on a wraithknight with no save to take it out. It would take 15 hits against a riptide with FNP.

Against most shooting weapons they are of the same durability. Poison stuff is more dangerous to the wraithknight, but other stuff is more dangerous to the riptide.

In cc though it is a whole different story. Ever had powerfist equipped units in cc with a riptide? The riptide does't last long. Try the same thing with a wraithknight and you could be there all game. Same thing with meltabombs too.

You keep shrugging off T8 like it means nothing. The difference between T8 and T6 is pretty huge when it comes to wounding a target.

Another unmentioned factor: the wraithknight is fearless. Riptides I find are best to terrify or beat in cc and sweep. Easy and clean. Wraithknights are totally immune to this.

Martel732 wrote:


Having to get close automatically steps the GK down a power level, imo.

That's exactly it. If there were good long range options, then GK would be great. But there aren't, stepping the whole faction down a notch, and making DK a great unit for a faction that will have trouble getting it where it needs to be to fight.

Of course, we could all just play on 2' x 2' tables. See, I'm a problem solver

Talys wrote:


That is also a reflection of the codex -- anyone who thinks 7e GK are overpowered is nuts

Same goes for Tau. Since 7th edition nullified some of their more powerful tricks (buffmander on Riptides, Eldar psychic buffs) Tau has fallen quite a bit behind Eldar, Daemons and probably SM and Nids too (if Skyblight is as good on the table as it seems on paper).

LordBlades wrote:

Talys wrote:


That is also a reflection of the codex -- anyone who thinks 7e GK are overpowered is nuts

Same goes for Tau. Since 7th edition nullified some of their more powerful tricks (buffmander on Riptides, Eldar psychic buffs) Tau has fallen quite a bit behind Eldar, Daemons and probably SM and Nids too (if Skyblight is as good on the table as it seems on paper).

Skyblight is a thing of the past now multiple CADs have opened up the cheese that is penta-flyrant lists.

Going off recent tournament results SM and Eldar seem the most dominant, with IK allies all over the place. I'd rate primary daemons, nid and necrons above tau too, although tau allies for anti air is still a very popular choice.

"You need to get the chip off your shoulder about IoM. It does NOT make for a good conversation when you are dismissing and diminishing the opposition in such a way."

Is it okay for people to hate Tau though? Why is it so preposterous that I might hate the IoM's shenanigans?

I do not defend the Riptide; did you not read my suggested nerf? Clearly not. However, I do defend the unfair view that the Riptide is the most broken thing ever and that the Dreadknight sucks.

The Dreadknights is highly maneuvable, puts out a tonne of shots, is a psyker and is a close-combat beast!
What about the Riptide? Unpredictable maneuvability, great shooting, no psychic ability and is mediocre at best in close-combat.

Tau do not ignore phases just because they can play gunline. By the same logic I can say SM don't use any phase because in my experience they do not move, do not use psykers, do not shoot and do not assault (because they're too busy whining like little IoM pansies).

I do feel Martel is making some biased points in general.

I never run my riptide with FnP ever. 35 points isn't worth it.
I also don't nova too often because of the issues it can cause.

So can we just use the standard riptide for this suicide squad.

20 shots at 3+ hit is around 13-14 hits
13-14 hits at 3+ to wound is about 8-9 wounds
8-9 wounds on a 5++ is probably 5-6 unsaved wounds

Looks like a dead riptide to me, based on the base riptide stats.

The dread knight is the same.

Wraith night is
13-14 hits
5+ to wound is about 4 wounds with no saves

The wraith is still about, albeit massively injured.

Just pointing out this is how the riptide really is on base terms.
Still not denying both are hard to kill.

Yes the 3++ is a thing and yes it can cause up to 2 wounds to the riptide in a game.

The riptide is not as almight as has been made out all the way through this thread.

Yes if you buy the upgrades for a riptide it does gain some, but when isn't this true.

I apologize martel as I didn't know we only could consider things you liked. As well as I never knew you added fnp to the riptide which shouldn't count. If we do the other two stock should do Riptide stock. But I see you have a unfathomable love for the thing on borderline obsession. Please don't get made that I insult "your baby" but I seen yet again you said you can't ignore the tide? I remember telling you my drop pod army easily beat tau on multiple scenarios. It isn't that good if I can leave two alive and still win cause objectives and mission. I can't ignore the dreadknight or wraith if they come at me. I can the Riptide.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"So, saying there are no good weapons against the riptide, but that there are good weapons against the wraithknight, is a strange thing to say. "

I can list several weapons that are good against the Wraithknight: Lascannon, krak missiles, anything poison, bright lances, dark lances. Can you list some that are actually GOOD against the riptide? Generating wounds means very little if it saving 89% or 78% of them.

The numbers I stated included armour saves. From the weapons you listed, lascannons and eldar lances are just as effective against riptides as wraithknights

20 shots * .66666 * .33333 = 4.4 wounds delivered

Against a Wraithknight with the 5++ invuln, this is still 2.9 wounds, which is greater than the weighted average for Ritpides. The worst part is that the plasma gun is not a particularly good anti-Wraithknight weapon.

You need to check your maths I'm afraid. The riptide without FNP is taking 5.926 wounds from this. With FNP included the riptide is still taking 3.95 wounds, but has 1 wounds less. Therefore, plasma is still more effective against riptides than wraithknights.

EDIT: Just to make it really clear, it would take 18 plasma hits on a wraithknight with no save to take it out. It would take 15 hits against a riptide with FNP.

Against most shooting weapons they are of the same durability. Poison stuff is more dangerous to the wraithknight, but other stuff is more dangerous to the riptide.

In cc though it is a whole different story. Ever had powerfist equipped units in cc with a riptide? The riptide does't last long. Try the same thing with a wraithknight and you could be there all game. Same thing with meltabombs too.

You keep shrugging off T8 like it means nothing. The difference between T8 and T6 is pretty huge when it comes to wounding a target.

Another unmentioned factor: the wraithknight is fearless. Riptides I find are best to terrify or beat in cc and sweep. Easy and clean. Wraithknights are totally immune to this.

So we are going to drop this in and assume you get within 12". Because if you don't, you have no hope of killing the Riptide.

20 shots * .667 *. 667 = 8.9 wounds. That's a lot of AP 2 wounds, but this is the Riptide we are talking about here.

So, 66% of the time, the Riptide will have a 3++/FNP save. This brings cleared wounds down to 2.0 wounds.

The other 33% of the time, we have a 5++/FNP save. This clears 4.0 wounds.

Weighing these numbers, (.667*2.0)+(.333*4.0), we get 2.7 wounds averaged across many games.

That's how I computed it for the Riptide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I apologize martel as I didn't know we only could consider things you liked. As well as I never knew you added fnp to the riptide which shouldn't count. If we do the other two stock should do Riptide stock. But I see you have a unfathomable love for the thing on borderline obsession. Please don't get made that I insult "your baby" but I seen yet again you said you can't ignore the tide? I remember telling you my drop pod army easily beat tau on multiple scenarios. It isn't that good if I can leave two alive and still win cause objectives and mission. I can't ignore the dreadknight or wraith if they come at me. I can the Riptide.

I added 4++ to the Dreadknight and the scattershield for the Wraithknight. The FNP Riptide was still hands down the best.

Martel... You're still on your own.

SGTPozy wrote:
"You need to get the chip off your shoulder about IoM. It does NOT make for a good conversation when you are dismissing and diminishing the opposition in such a way."

Is it okay for people to hate Tau though? Why is it so preposterous that I might hate the IoM's shenanigans?

I do not defend the Riptide; did you not read my suggested nerf? Clearly not. However, I do defend the unfair view that the Riptide is the most broken thing ever and that the Dreadknight sucks.

The Dreadknights is highly maneuvable, puts out a tonne of shots, is a psyker and is a close-combat beast!
What about the Riptide? Unpredictable maneuvability, great shooting, no psychic ability and is mediocre at best in close-combat.

Tau do not ignore phases just because they can play gunline. By the same logic I can say SM don't use any phase because in my experience they do not move, do not use psykers, do not shoot and do not assault (because they're too busy whining like little IoM pansies).

Based off my previous calculations, the Dreadknight does kinda suck at taking damage.

Here's a thought.; why don't we go through every army and rate which ones they can kill easiest instead of constantly allowing Martel to decide what they're compared against?

Which is easiest to kill for:
SM
BA
DA
SW
GK
Eldar
DE
Tau
IG
Sisters
Tyranids
Necrons
Orks
Daemons
CSM
(Might have missed some out but you get the point).

Riptide kills all. Mwhahahah

What exactly are you suggesting?

So, 66% of the time, the Riptide will have a 3++/FNP save.

Whatever you say buddy.

Clearly someone and their riptides is giving you a hard time lol.

I advise using a different army for a bit, particularly one with more fast assault elements. It will really change your perspective on certain units.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

So, 66% of the time, the Riptide will have a 3++/FNP save.

Whatever you say buddy.

Clearly someone and their riptides is giving you a hard time lol.

I advise using a different army for a bit, particularly one with more fast assault elements. It will really change your perspective on certain units.

What army do you suggest? Also, what is inaccurate about my statement about nova charging? I would think that if the Tau player sees a drop pod with plasma sternguard coming, they are going to nova charge until the sternguard have been committed.

Boniface wrote:
Riptide kills all. Mwhahahah

No, I mean how easily the armies KILL them, not how easily they are killed by them.

E.g. Orks would kill the Riptide easiest since it lacks volume of shots (so worse than the Dreadknight) and will die in combat (whilst the Wraithknight will only be hurt by Nob's PKs).

My dark angel devastators would kill that Rippy. Not that I have them anymore.

SGTPozy wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Riptide kills all. Mwhahahah

No, I mean how easily the armies KILL them, not how easily they are killed by them.

E.g. Orks would kill the Riptide easiest since it lacks volume of shots (so worse than the Dreadknight) and will die in combat (whilst the Wraithknight will only be hurt by Nob's PKs).

You are assuming the Orks can ever catch it. I seriously doubt the Orks are the best list at killing Riptides.