Eldar jetbikes can all have scatter lasers now for 10ppm
str 6 ap 6 heavy 4.
I should quit this game. The thought of getting mad at someone because he put like 40 jetbikes across the table from me should be "oh cool a fluffy saim hain army" not "this guy is a piece of $&!@"
4 x 270 points for a 10 man jetbike squad with 40 shots each at str 6, with 3+ jink, and eldar jetbike movement WITH ObSec.
I just cant understand this. Seriously its like they are trying to ruin their own game to lower their stock and sell the company off. Thats the only possible explination for something this insane.
If that list goes first it will create some havoc but let's mathhammer it.
160 shots. That will kill 30 Power armoured marines in a turn. Now they will also likely need to take care of armour, units out of LOS and god knows what else. If they go first they will get some kills but no way can that list do enough damage to stop getting ripped to shreds next turn. Throw some blast weapons onto them and so on and you will see many dead jetbikes.
Off the top of my head I can think of half a dozen builds at 1500 of non cheese marines that would hold up against that list with no worries at all.
Not a typo, atleast not on the part of the person putting up the info. Might be a typo in the White Dwarf but that's about the LEAST likely thing to happen, right? And there's now video of the inside of the White Dwarf. Shows it true.
I think we all need to buy more jetbikes.
Will also say, they can all also have Shuriken Cannons too and Bladestorm is still fully active.
If that list goes first it will create some havoc but let's mathhammer it.
160 shots. That will kill 30 Power armoured marines in a turn. Now they will also likely need to take care of armour, units out of LOS and god knows what else. If they go first they will get some kills but no way can that list do enough damage to stop getting ripped to shreds next turn. Throw some blast weapons onto them and so on and you will see many dead jetbikes.
Off the top of my head I can think of half a dozen builds at 1500 of non cheese marines that would hold up against that list with no worries at all.
10 of them, with guide, kill close to 4 wraiths a turn, 3 with decursion. Now I am always happy when something can poop on wraiths. But if they dont stand a chance, what does.
Also you are insane if you think a marine army losing 30 tacticals in one turn is not worried or horribly crippled at this point.
Also, just for fun, thats 90 dead orks on average from the green tide. 90 in one turn.
The Eldar player can just use all of his remaining points on anti-tank, or bring the improved wraithknights, or maybe the shinning spears are ungodly too. Or utilize some of those psychic powers and rend things to death with endless shuriken cannon jetbikes!! Or all the other options I don't even know about Eldar.
The HHHobby isn't about playing games with these miniatures (since GW's management has cited that most players don't actually play). It's about buying as many GW miniatures as you can possibly get your hands on. Now get out there and make Kirby proud!
SharkoutofWata wrote: Not a typo, atleast not on the part of the person putting up the info. Might be a typo in the White Dwarf but that's about the LEAST likely thing to happen, right? And there's no video of the inside of the White Dwarf. Shows it true.
I think we all need to buy more jetbikes.
Will also say, they can all also have Shuriken Cannons too and Bladestorm is still fully active.
Jesus. What the hell. It seems the Eldar will continue to be the top dogs. Watch them not get a single nerf. The only possible cherry on top to make these situation worse. At this rate its going to be End Times Everyone vs Eldar.
gmaleron wrote: How is this overpowered? All you have to take are vehicles and you will be perfectly fine.
Because
(a) After that 1080 points, you can dump almost the entire rest of the army into AT, and
(b) With Eldar psychic powers, you can (probably) just make all of these jetbikes pseudo-rending and then blast every vehicle through Land Raiders to death.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Not a typo, atleast not on the part of the person putting up the info. Might be a typo in the White Dwarf but that's about the LEAST likely thing to happen, right? And there's no video of the inside of the White Dwarf. Shows it true.
I think we all need to buy more jetbikes.
Will also say, they can all also have Shuriken Cannons too and Bladestorm is still fully active.
we sure it's not a mistranslation?
It's literally there in English in the video that got posted in News & Rumors.
I think there is a lot of overreacting going on so far in this thread. S6 is okay at best and we don't know what Psychic Powers the Eldar will have, I highly doubt they will get "pseudo rending" with Scatter Lasers. Also from what rumors have said they lost the TL ability which is pretty awesome, not only that they are a T4 model with a 3+ save which is not invincible in the slightest. I also thought Scatter Lasers were only 3 shots? Even then its not the end of the world, all it means is that Mechanized lists and Vehicles will be more vital now.
Sir Arun wrote: I dunno boutchu guys, but I'd rather have 120 S6 shots that all have AP2 on a 6 to wound than 160 S6 shots that dont.
Someone do the math.
I think I'm with you. They removed scatterlasers giving Twin-Linked to other weaponry now, so IMO Shuriken Cannons are slightly better as they are more take-all-comers. You only give up one shot but get Bladestorm which, en masse, is brutal.
Either way, Saim-Hann lists are going to continue to dominate from the looks of it.
Did the math over in the rumor thread, 810pts of scatbikes kills half a harvester wraith squad in 1 turn. And destroyer weapons ignore RP and are s10 ap2 automatically so....
Kills 22 warriors in decurion. 15 immortals. It'll need some extra AT for AV13 spam, but with a little over 400 points remaining, that shouldn't be too hard. I hope to one day face this challenge!
Did the math over in the rumor thread, 810pts of scatbikes kills half a harvester wraith squad in 1 turn. And destroyer weapons ignore RP and are s10 ap2 automatically so....
Kills 22 warriors in decurion. 15 immortals. It'll need some extra AT for AV13 spam, but with a little over 400 points remaining, that shouldn't be too hard. I hope to one day face this challenge!
Edit for grammer
Ok then so we have a solution to Newcron domination in a troops slot that can then take AT. It may not exactly be a hard counter but it does prey on the biggest boogeyman in the meta atm.
TheCustomLime wrote: I should just stick Multilasers onto all of the Jetbikes and take C.S. Goto's vision to it's logical conclusion.
Maybe it was him that wrote the dex...
Nah, it's pretty much Kelly's work straight up, fits his profile.
3rd edition was Altoic, 4th edition skimmerspam (also known as falconspam), 5th edition no update so remained back a bit after the midway point, 6th edition Serpent Spam, and now we have Scatter laser bike spam for 7th.
Crazy how much more powerful craftworld eldar jetbike ares compared to the DE reaver jetbikes. Anyone have any ideas how a pure DE army should try taking on mass jetbike spam?
30 bikes = 90 shuriken cannons, 60 hits, 10 diced marines, 13 other failed, its better by 1, and WAY better against anything 2+ save or T6+
Here is some math for you. 160 str 6 shots kills 90 orks in a turn. Not everyone is balanced around being able to tank crap like necrons. Again that is nearly an entire min green tide worth of boyz. 1 turn.
Archon_Zarbyrn wrote: Crazy how much more powerful craftworld eldar jetbike ares compared to the DE reaver jetbikes. Anyone have any ideas how a pure DE army should try taking on mass jetbike spam?
Reavers are good but are mostly a melee unit.
Codex DE: Prayer mostly.
Covens: Stuff like the Corpsethief claw, DA, and lots of grots would be what bring 4+ feel no pain from spamming as many Cronos as I can get would be my plan.
TheCustomLime wrote: I should just stick Multilasers onto all of the Jetbikes and take C.S. Goto's vision to it's logical conclusion.
Maybe it was him that wrote the dex...
Nah, it's pretty much Kelly's work straight up, fits his profile.
3rd edition was Altoic, 4th edition skimmerspam (also known as falconspam), 5th edition no update so remained back a bit after the midway point, 6th edition Serpent Spam, and now we have Scatter laser bike spam for 7th.
You never know! Maybe they'll make another game breaking unit/combo!
The HHHobby isn't about playing games with these miniatures (since GW's management has cited that most players don't actually play). It's about buying as many GW miniatures as you can possibly get your hands on. Now get out there and make Kirby proud!
I'm all about this, it's true, it's observable, and it explains many many things. What is the source of that statement, and will you say how you found it?
Icculus wrote: Well for all those who say the way to counter mass bikes is to bring a bunch of vehicles, it looks like all the Distortion weapons are now D-weapons.
So as long as the rest of the jetbike list has some wraithlords or wraithknights, then that plan might not hold on for too long.
And depends on the rest of the eldar army too. If dragons and hawks are relatively the same even big tanks wont last. Plus with Skitarii around no one will be investing a lot into tanks when they can dump out easy haywire.
The HHHobby isn't about playing games with these miniatures (since GW's management has cited that most players don't actually play). It's about buying as many GW miniatures as you can possibly get your hands on. Now get out there and make Kirby proud!
I'm all about this, it's true, it's observable, and it explains many many things. What is the source of that statement, and will you say how you found it?
It was mentioned in the court case against CHS by, I believe, Mark Wells. I could probably go digging for it if you are really interested. I can at least swear that GW's uppers have made this point on a couple of occasions. It's all pretty damning stuff, you didn't really see anyone chime up in GW's defense in the thread dedicated to the case. It's hard to say GW is trying to sell its new models the hardest since the rules don't always match up (some stuff is great, other stuff is trash), but this situation with the windriders is beyond the pale of what, really, ANYONE expected.
Icculus wrote: Well for all those who say the way to counter mass bikes is to bring a bunch of vehicles, it looks like all the Distortion weapons are now D-weapons.
So as long as the rest of the jetbike list has some wraithlords or wraithknights, then that plan might not hold on for too long.
Or just Wraithguard. Their guns are naturally S10 AP2 Distort so if they just up that to D weapon, holy gak. Like, HOLY gak.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Ignores Cover is rarely AP3, but I don't know my IG Codex backwards and forwards. Might not be the most helpful when all is said and done.
They have Artillery that is Str9 ap3 and can have the Ignores cover order placed on them.
So yeah, VERY GOOD.
I thought about both of those (@Reinokarite), but the Land Raider absolutely will not get in range. To think otherwise means you've been against some bad Eldar players. They'll move around it like a school of fish in front of a shark. And the Heldrake is going to be up against those 160 shots that just need a few double 6s to glance it to death. Not hard to do.
I was actually thinking of the bigger side of things. Malcador Infernus. AP3 Hellstorm weapons. Not much can get away from those, and savvy Eldar players know better than to bunch up. That big template might be what's really needed. But, Hellhounds might also be a valid idea. Still expensive, but the weapon of the Redeemer and nearly as fast as the Heldrake...
Ninja'd. But glad I'm not the only one thinking about that Malcador.
"Sorry, your book is too broken, go buy a not-game-genie army."
I'll probably just concede tourney games against them too if tourneys don't try to reign them in somehow. I'd rather spend 2 hours watching other games than putting my models down and picking them back up.
Ill have to deploy my Stormsword more. The Hellhammer Siege Gun's huge blast, high ST and great AP with NO COVER will hopefully remove large numbers of Jetbikes. Only problem is its short range.
That or deploy more Erradicators. I have twin Malcador infernuses that could do something (that was a good idea).
Throw as much heavy weight anti Cover at them and just... hope.....
If only they didn't remove the Anti-jink rule from the Hydras they might still have some use!!! I suppose I can just use the Imperial Armor version and pay 5 more points and still have the Auto Targeter.
I would also include the Colossus but even with its ST and AP and No cover, its limited range makes it pointless with how fast those Gnats move!!
The only other thing I can think of to counter mass jetbikes would be sheer large numbers of shots, hence the Mega bolter idea.
A Vulcan Macharius, or Stormlord spraying bullets liberally might do damage. I can only think that sheer volume might do something against multiple saves.
Idea: tourneys are now organized into 2 groups:
A: non-eldar
B: eldar
Players are always paired only with other players from their own group. Tournament champ is the winner of group A. The top player of group B gets some afterthought prize, like a congratulatory wheel of cheese.
Oh and they're still qualified for best painted army, of course.
I retract my sarcastic comment. I don't like the look of this release at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
niv-mizzet wrote: Idea: tourneys are now organized into 2 groups:
A: non-eldar
B: eldar
Players are always paired only with other players from their own group. Tournament champ is the winner of group A. The top player of group B gets some afterthought prize, like a congratulatory wheel of cheese.
Oh and they're still qualified for best painted army, of course.
Considering Necrons only jumped up to the top of the middle tier, I think people are just crying because something is new and the eldar codex came out in... oh no... 2013!! Even if they're still the best they're not new! Must complain about everything else?
Pyeatt wrote: Considering Necrons only jumped up to the top of the middle tier, I think people are just crying because something is new and the eldar codex came out in... oh no... 2013!! Even if they're still the best they're not new! Must complain about everything else?
Depends on the format you're talking about. In ITC tourneys, the only army to have a higher "average placement of best general" than the Necrons are Eldar as near as I can tell. (I ran the numbers for daemons, nids, and marines, and just eyeballed the rest.)
In FLGS format....well they're still smoking hot there too. So I don't know how you get "top of middle tier" from that.
Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit. It will work just like numerous other similiar lists do - against an unprepared opponent in a pick up game or against a list that will get dominated by pretty much everything anyway.
I'm more worried about the other stuff that could possibly come out in the book.
I just... oh lord... I can't stop laughing at people who threaten to quit/quit because of a new Codex. Best source of hilarity.
Makumba wrote: Hmm well at least turn one my tanks should survive, unless they get poped by a WK.
T1: Jetbikes with attached farseer move up 12". Psychic phase, too many dice are thrown at misfortune on your big tank 24" or less away. Shooting phase, your tank dies.
Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit. It will work just like numerous other similiar lists do - against an unprepared opponent in a pick up game or against a list that will get dominated by pretty much everything anyway.
I'm more worried about the other stuff that could possibly come out in the book.
I just... oh lord... I can't stop laughing at people who threaten to quit/quit because of a new Codex. Best source of hilarity.
Another one of Runic's "the game is fine, you all just suck at it" posts. I guarantee if I was handed the current eldar codex, but with 1080 points taken up out of an 1850 list on this obsec bike spam tactic, (since we don't know the rest of the codex yet,) I could obliterate 95% of the lists you try to play against me. Most of the other 5% would be Eldar mirror matches. Even if the rest of the codex sucks, 2 farseers, the bikes, and then your choice of anti-tank ally and you have a list that will carry you to the top tables in any tourney, except on your most ungodly unlucky days. Or if you try to go melee the enemy with your bikes or something.
Instead of stating something that is wrong, you can alternatively check my message history and see the vaurious posts about the games poor balance and rules issues.
Pay my way and buy me the army, and I'll take you up on that. I don't have a money tree in my backyard to buy the most OP thing everytime a new book comes out, nor do I have the money to travel the world just to roflstomp a few people with actual fun lists until I get to a mirror match, where the dice will literally tell us who wins and loses.
Even if I was told by a prophet that I was 100% guaranteed to win every match, I still really wouldn't feel like going because throwing a bunch of dice and then telling the opponent they lost ISN'T FUN.
I hate playing combo decks in magic for the same reason. They don't actually engage the opponent in a game of actions and reactions. They just...for lack of a better term...masturbate.
I play BA pretty much for that reason. I wish they were a wee bit stronger so as to be more middle tier, but I don't want any part of these "table your army from my deployment zone by turn 3" shenanigans.
So where should I send the bills for my airfare, hotel stays, and new models? :p
Okay, so in essence you are saying you could win the largest / some of the largest tournaments in the world by wielding said jetbikes but do not have the time, money or the interest.
RunicFIN wrote: Okay, so in essence you are saying you could win the largest / some of the largest tournaments in the world by wielding said jetbikes but do not have the time, money or the interest.
Gotcha.
I can get over the time and interest issues if you're willing to fund your little experiment! I highly doubt anyone on dakka has the overflowing dosh to just send someone of their choice across the world multiple times though.
(plus that bike army is gonna be 'spensive to wysiwyg, if people are right about the "1 scatter laser per box" thing.)
Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit. It will work just like numerous other similiar lists do - against an unprepared opponent in a pick up game or against a list that will get dominated by pretty much everything anyway.
I'm more worried about the other stuff that could possibly come out in the book.
I just... oh lord... I can't stop laughing at people who threaten to quit/quit because of a new Codex. Best source of hilarity.
Did you ever think that maybe the people saying they're gonna quit 'because of a new codex', it might be the final straw? They aren't threatening to quit because of one bad codex, but because the whole game is hopelessly unbalanced and it just gets worse and worse with each release.
That's also a very good point. It's very depressing to get to each book and think "Maybe they've learned. Maybe this time will be different!" And then before you know it, you're having to tell the other non-warhammer players "oh no, it wasn't GW that gave me this black eye again...I uh...fell down some stairs."
That can only go on so many times before you just grab your stuff and leave in the night.
Did you ever think that maybe the people saying they're gonna quit 'because of a new codex', it might be the final straw? They aren't threatening to quit because of one bad codex, but because the whole game is hopelessly unbalanced and it just gets worse and worse with each release.
Honestly, as the rumours about Eldar turn into substantiated fact, I started to ask myself, "okay, how do I deal with this?" I considered baneblade variants, bringing back my Armoured Battlegroup and so on until I realized, wait, the simplest solution is to just not. My club is currently undergoing a schism between powergamers and not powergamers, and GW simply isn't helping, and their continual blinding incompetence at creating any kind of cohesive, functional ruleset is abhorrent and extremely depressing.
I refuse to spend a penny more on GW prime product while bs like what's coming down the pipe exists. I was humming and hawing over whether or not to do 30k instead moving forwards, but honestly, it isn't really a choice anymore; if I want to keep having fun in the 40k universe, the 40k tabletop game clearly isn't for me. 30k certainly is more expensive, but I'm hoping the next HH rulebook, due to having the "Imperial Militia" might give me a reason to use my DKOK models in a capcity beyond just packing them up after putting them on the table.
And before anyone takes the route of "well, there are counters to this new Eldar stuff," of course there are, but this says quite loudly that GW doesn't care about making a balanced ruleset, their business model is officially divorced from any semblance of good game design, which for the time being at least, FW still recognizes.
MajorStoffer wrote: Honestly, as the rumours about Eldar turn into substantiated fact, I started to ask myself, "okay, how do I deal with this?" I considered baneblade variants, bringing back my Armoured Battlegroup and so on until I realized, wait, the simplest solution is to just not. My club is currently undergoing a schism between powergamers and not powergamers, and GW simply isn't helping, and their continual blinding incompetence at creating any kind of cohesive, functional ruleset is abhorrent and extremely depressing.
I refuse to spend a penny more on GW prime product while bs like what's coming down the pipe exists. I was humming and hawing over whether or not to do 30k instead moving forwards, but honestly, it isn't really a choice anymore; if I want to keep having fun in the 40k universe, the 40k tabletop game clearly isn't for me. 30k certainly is more expensive, but I'm hoping the next HH rulebook, due to having the "Imperial Militia" might give me a reason to use my DKOK models in a capcity beyond just packing them up after putting them on the table.
And before anyone takes the route of "well, there are counters to this new Eldar stuff," of course there are, but this says quite loudly that GW doesn't care about making a balanced ruleset, their business model is officially divorced from any semblance of good game design, which for the time being at least, FW still recognizes.
People laughed at my idea of having Eldar armies off in their own little Eldar only sub-tournaments while the rest of the more fair armies fight it out with each other.
I definitely agree though. It's pretty irritating to see some armies, Eldar being the biggest offender, constantly handed the "keys to the kingdom." GW apparently thinks that Eldar should always be the most awesome army on the table for some insane reason. Phil Kelly must have some blackmail evidence on the rest of the design team or something.
Why do Eldar keep getting units that do everything you want absurdly well and for cheap. They do absurd damage, are amazingly fast and can be very durable all for a low price. That was the problem with the wave serpent and this time their bikes have it now.
Not to mention it sounds like the army can spam D weapons too.
MajorStoffer wrote: I considered baneblade variants, bringing back my Armoured Battlegroup and so on
Except oops, GW gave Eldar mass D-weapons to laugh at LRBTs and Baneblades. I think you're probably right about "don't play" being the only real option against an army that has no meaningful weaknesses.
MajorStoffer wrote: I considered baneblade variants, bringing back my Armoured Battlegroup and so on
Except oops, GW gave Eldar mass D-weapons to laugh at LRBTs and Baneblades. I think you're probably right about "don't play" being the only real option against an army that has no meaningful weaknesses.
Even without D, having a bunch of troops in wave serpents with St 10 Ap2, non-scattering deep strikers with haywire or Lance meant my Russes were never especially powerful, merely the best recourse I had.
It's a shame too, as for all the blandness of the first run of 7th edition codecis, it was looking like we might actually get a pseudo-balanced game when the big offenders got re-done.
Now? I'm perfectly willing and ready to give up on 40k completely; GW has shown the direction they prefer, and I have other applications for my models within the same gods-damned company which does not constantly frustrate, annoy or depress me, to say nothing of my burgeoning Infinity collection, X-Wing or Armada.
If I want to play 40k, I'm better off booting up Dawn of War and the Ultimate Apocalypse mod.
Looking at that kind of firepower and looking at the armys I play (or plan to)...
Nothing can deal with that. Literally nothing.
Wounding anything on 2's with weight of fire versus saves?
Marines keel over. Bikes keel over. Terminators keel over.
Anything but a LR will be glanced to death.
Skitarii keel over, being denied their FNP to boot. With AV12 max, the vehicles won't last either.
I will most likely never play this, but Emperor save it, that's bonkers.
niv-mizzet wrote: That's also a very good point. It's very depressing to get to each book and think "Maybe they've learned. Maybe this time will be different!" And then before you know it, you're having to tell the other non-warhammer players "oh no, it wasn't GW that gave me this black eye again...I uh...fell down some stairs."
That can only go on so many times before you just grab your stuff and leave in the night.
This is why I quit playing WoW. I played a shadow priest in MoP and in the end I just got sick of all the warlock and mage bs (some people here surely know what I mean). Maybe a little off-topic but things like that do happen. For some people this codex will be the last straw and they'll just quit.
Oh, and personally I blame Peter Jackson (and to a lesser extent Tolkien) for giving culture the perfect-beautiful-godly elf trope.
Ironically Tolkien never really had that in the books, the Mirkwood elves really aint like that being paranoid rednecks who kidnap people randomly and have big drunken parties, and the one's to the west only really have a few elves of that Caliber (Thingol for example), and anyone with that sort of attitude are vastly skewered in the SIlmarillion.
The Movies however...Yeah, still aint as bad as the Inheritance (Eragon), elves.
I'm having a hard time figuring out which is a more moronic move; the scatterbikes, or D weapons on troops.
Though I'm glad we've already had a few posts telling us it won't be that bad because it may not fare super well against a handful of equally ridiculous and cheesy, over the top builds.
The point about the scarcity of actual shuriken cannon gun models is probably important- a spammed jetbike army may seem really good, but the logistical problem of physically getting that many models with the right weapon will be an obstacle. Compare it to Tomb Blades- exceptionally power to point cost ratio, but I've not seen any mass Tomb Blade spam armies yet- perhaps because of the same supply problem.
I'm honestly jealous that eldar get all the Destroyer stuff. My orks want some!
The D-weapon changes won't affect me much. D-scythes will hurt more than the average flamer, but that's about it.
I just hope not everyone starts an eldar army in my FLGS. I'd like to not only deploy, but maybe even roll dice for the stompa I'm getting this weekend.
Rippy wrote: Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.
We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.
By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.
Rippy wrote: Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.
We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.
By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.
I remember getting my hopes up for CSM as other powerful dexes were coming out, and we got our peice of poop.
Dude, these new units are incredibly op, what the heck?
Come on guys, I know everyone hates GW but do you really think they would do this? Get real.
/posts image
/leaves thread
Because if it is as it is at face value its incredibly stupid. I'd probably have to move onto Tau or something, cause my army would have nothing but SD shots.
Rippy wrote: Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.
We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.
By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.
GW either decided to make Destroyer more common in an attempt to shake up the meta and encourage hordes more (I mean, S - D still hurts, but you're only losing one guy anyway!). That or they realized D-weapons could stand for Destroyer weapons and decided to go with it.
Rippy wrote: Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.
We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.
By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.
GW either decided to make Destroyer more common in an attempt to shake up the meta and encourage hordes more (I mean, S - D still hurts, but you're only losing one guy anyway!). That or they realized D-weapons could stand for Destroyer weapons and decided to go with it.
Eldar jet bikes have literally zero weaknesses.
Move 12", shoot, move in the assault phase.
They can legitimately move shoot and retreat (i don't know the range on eldar weapons off hand 36" or 24"?)
This is literally the most nonsensical creation and has ZERO counters (ignoring internet hyperbole).
Necrons might stand up to the sustained punishment for a while but aren't likely to be able to retaliate well. And this is only Necrons... what about the other armies.
Aside from that there is very little anyone can do, and you're not hamstringing yourself by taking eldar bikes.
Yes it requires stupid money, yes you might not see it, but i think the issue is more 'the state of the game' than broken units in a broken codex.
The fact things like this exists at all is the problem.
And this is without even knowing the rest of the codex. D weapon wraiths or something else can possibly handle the rest of your army.
I think this is the 'end of times' for me in 40k. Yes i may never see it but there is a point where i just say "F**k it, this game is s**t.
Rippy wrote: Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.
We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.
By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.
GW either decided to make Destroyer more common in an attempt to shake up the meta and encourage hordes more (I mean, S - D still hurts, but you're only losing one guy anyway!). That or they realized D-weapons could stand for Destroyer weapons and decided to go with it.
Now we just got to figure out how to deal with s6 spam that kills a greentide in 1-2 turns from another part of the board and we're fine
Rippy wrote: Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.
We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.
By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.
GW either decided to make Destroyer more common in an attempt to shake up the meta and encourage hordes more (I mean, S - D still hurts, but you're only losing one guy anyway!). That or they realized D-weapons could stand for Destroyer weapons and decided to go with it.
Now we just got to figure out how to deal with s6 spam that kills a greentide in 1-2 turns from another part of the board and we're fine
I never said I was gonna win against the new eldar. Even if they don't bring all the S6, I'll never catch them because they're jetbikes...
But yeah, windrider jetbikes and wraithguard (depending on their points cost) seem like an insanely good army. Lots of S6 to deal with 2+ saves, IDGEQ and glance transports, all the mobility you could need to win maelstrom and then S - D to kill multi-wound/HP models/vehicles.
Rippy wrote: Can't wait for the new CSM dex next year. So we can get nerfed again.
We will get one thing that is cheesy, but doesn't win games so that people can complain we don't need anything else to improve.
By the chaos gods, how did any of this get approved? Even Kelly's former OP work was at least somewhat harder to spot till you saw how they interacted.
GW either decided to make Destroyer more common in an attempt to shake up the meta and encourage hordes more (I mean, S - D still hurts, but you're only losing one guy anyway!). That or they realized D-weapons could stand for Destroyer weapons and decided to go with it.
Now we just got to figure out how to deal with s6 spam that kills a greentide in 1-2 turns from another part of the board and we're fine
I actually figured it out.
Don't play Cheesebeards
Makumba wrote: Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.
I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.
All Distort weapons became Destroyer.
It's great, 4x10 units of Scatter Bikes is 160 S6 shots and that's still enough to fit in some Destroyer weapons. Maybe even ally in DEWWP for no scatter!
Makumba wrote: Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.
I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.
AV doesn't matter against the new wraithcannons. You can pretend you have AV87 for all the eldar player cares, he's just gonna roll his D6 and hope to not get any 1's.
Is it bad that I find the D-weapon change hilarious? It's just so outrageous that I can't not laugh.
Makumba wrote: Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.
I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.
AV doesn't matter against the new wraithcannons. You can pretend you have AV87 for all the eldar player cares, he's just gonna roll his D6 and hope to not get any 1's.
Is it bad that I find the D-weapon change hilarious? It's just so outrageous that I can't not laugh.
It is only funny until no one wants to play your army anymore.
Makumba wrote: Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.
I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.
AV doesn't matter against the new wraithcannons. You can pretend you have AV87 for all the eldar player cares, he's just gonna roll his D6 and hope to not get any 1's.
Is it bad that I find the D-weapon change hilarious? It's just so outrageous that I can't not laugh.
I don't think it's bad. I think it's like that histerical laughter when things are just too 'much' to process.
Like no game designer is that stupid right? right?
Makumba wrote: Do the wright flamers get D too?
funny enough if eldar take half the number of jetbikes it is still enough to kill most of my infantry.
I hope that in the future dex either chimeras or the taurox get av13 on sides otherwise, even with transports, IG dies too fast.
AV doesn't matter against the new wraithcannons. You can pretend you have AV87 for all the eldar player cares, he's just gonna roll his D6 and hope to not get any 1's.
Is it bad that I find the D-weapon change hilarious? It's just so outrageous that I can't not laugh.
It is only funny until no one wants to play your army anymore.
I play orks, so I won't be enjoying the perks of it myself.
Boniface nailed it. I mean... S - D seems fluffy for D-weapons but... C'mon, there's gotta be a line, you can't give titan killer weaponry to rank and file troopers even if they're space elf grandpa souls in robot suits!
It's also like the least subtle advertising ever.
Let's make new jet bikes... Let's make them the most powerful thing ever so we sell a shed ton of them.
My thought process three days ago: "You know, I've not checked any of GW's new releases for a while. I know Necrons are broken, but I've heard other things have improved."
*Looks in thread. 90 dead orks in one turn, S: D on infantry.*
As much as we're all having fun getting carried away, not even GW will give them legit D-weapon flamers. It will be a D hit on a 6 to wound (instead of instant death), then roll on the destroyer weapon table. Everything else will be as before for their weapons (still far too strong, but that's an argument for another day).
Don't get me wrong, I'm still in shock over the changes to the jetbikes, and even Destroyer hit's on 6's to wound is still insanely strong, doubly so on flamers that don't even have to roll to hit, but surely, surely no-one would allow them to actually have full on D-weapons. Right? RIGHT?
At least Cent-star could survive them, since as long as you get invis off, you only have to deal with ~120 shots hitting on 6's, so that's like, 20 hits, wounding on 3's and 6's are rending. So, like 3 rends and 3 failed armours. See, 1 whole shooting phase and you only lost ~3 guys. You'll be fine... Until they get re-rolls to hit, then you'll lose the entire unit despite invis and being immune to str-D flamers.
liquidjoshi wrote: My thought process three days ago: "You know, I've not checked any of GW's new releases for a while. I know Necrons are broken, but I've heard other things have improved."
*Looks in thread. 90 dead orks in one turn, S: D on infantry.*
"Well, back to Infinity I go!"
Good to know G-dubz will never change.
Simply put, we don't know all the details yet. The Eldar shenanigans come on the heels of a fairly well-balanced book in the form of Codex: Skitarii.
The S: D on infantry applies only to Wraithguard, and the exact details of how/when it comes into play(such as if you roll a 6 To Wound which is how the "Distort" special rule currently operates) are as yet unclear.
Drasius wrote: As much as we're all having fun getting carried away, not even GW will give them legit D-weapon flamers. It will be a D hit on a 6 to wound (instead of instant death), then roll on the destroyer weapon table. Everything else will be as before for their weapons (still far too strong, but that's an argument for another day).
Well, as much as I'd like to believe that, the argument that 'Not even GW would do 'X'' doesn't hold that much water anymore these days. All that I've seen so far indicates they'll be either legit D weapons, or similar enough to as not matter given the quantities and availability.
Its absurd and game breaking either way.
Total, complete, utter incompetence on GW's behalf. I sincerely hope people don't buy this and reward GW for poor and lazy writing.
Come on dude, you know people will buy these by the armful if they actually get proper D weapons. Hell, they're probably going to sell out even if it's only the d-weapon-lite like I think it's going to be.
Drasius wrote: Come on dude, you know people will buy these by the armful if they actually get proper D weapons. Hell, they're probably going to sell out even if it's only the d-weapon-lite like I think it's going to be.
Oh I know people will eat it up, I'm just hoping they won't.
Wow.. just wow. You know every time I think of playing again something like this comes and feths it up. I would play only fluffy, but here we have the divide. A fluffy Saim-Hann Windrider army is also super powerful, just because. A fluffy Space Marine 1st Company list is total garbage, because reasons.
There's not even a thought of balance here. They arbitrarily punish people for playing some fluffy lists and reward people for playing other fluffy lists and likely don't even realize it (or just don't care).
And people still defend this gak?
The saddest part? I see people absolutely GUSHING over this release, talking about how awesome it is and how they can't wait and how on earth are they going to find all the money to buy it. It's like a fething cult.
Honestly, the astonishing part is that you cannot seem to separate people being excited for new models that have been a LONG time coming(the jetbike prototypes were spotted in 2005 or 2006) with powergaming.
Jetbikes by themselves aren't going to be "superpowerful". The issue comes from them suddenly gaining access to Scatter Lasers.
And please bear in mind this is coming from someone who has no interest, now, in starting an Eldar army. I have had one on the backburner for awhile that was going to consist of Illic Nightspear and a boatload of Pathfinders, with Harlequin allies and War Walkers filling my Heavy Support slots.
The new FOC does not really allow for me to do that, unless Illic has a rule making Pathfinders/Rangers into a "Core" option.
Let us put it in a way that is expressively... slightly weaker. Let us say, for arguments sake, that GW did in fact put in a rule that said only on 6's do the hits count as destroyer HITS (and the reason it would be on hits is that I have no idea how it would work on a wound roll... what you wound on a 6 but now you have to roll on the D-chart and on a 1 it was discounted...so yes, it has to be hit). The problem would still be immense if still not in the slightest weaker. It is still a Strength 10 AP 1 shot, so that still hurts like hell and will instant kill most other models, but out of those shots you will get at least 1 roll of a 6 (statistically) - which then has a 5/6 chance to decimate anything it touches. Playing with some wound shenanigans, I can tell you to take the normal shots first... and then when your HQ is all alone, or something precious is coming up, the destroyer wound comes up. The squad has always been a scalpel of decimation, now its even sharper and scarier... which to me was unnecessary.
As for bikes I can only hope that is a misprint. There is no way that something that bad could actually go through playtesting. But playing 40k for many years and my faith has somewhat... diminished.
If this is the case, I might just - quite possibly for the first time ever - flat out refuse to play with that person. It is not that I will lose, I have lost many games, it is that I will lose with quite literally no hope of winning. At least with admechlance I can win with positioning and objectives, and other means. Seeing that codex entry leaves me with dread. How some people can say that it "only kills 25-30 marines" a turn is baffling to me - being that in most games ... at max.. there will be 50 - 60 marines (I am thinking full drop pod army)
Like I said before in this thread - I have slowly moved myself to other systems that I enjoy more. I have sold all but one of my armies (my heavily converted and thematic Heresy White Scars Army... used for 40k ) and moved to companies like spartan games. They are responsive in their forums, their models are gorgeoussss, and the games are actually quite balanced and fun (specifically Firestorm armada and planetfall). I have reserved myself to almost playing 40k at least once a month, or at tournaments, but honestly even that might change.
It sucks because I love the lore, the background, and I do love the models, but again pictures say 1000 words, and those pictures quite literally break the game.
BTW for those who say that scatter lasers do not rend do not realize the powers of warlocks.. and can cause those weapons to rend. So while they do take out a majority of infantry and light tanks fairly easily, with rends and 120 shots....
I'm pretty sure that Distort weapons will only be Str D on a to-hit or to-wound roll of 6. I know though that only that is still pretty insane.
As for the mass Str6 on Jetbikes. I'm honestly flabberghasted.
My only hope is that they stay consistent on the power level of these releases now for each army book. The Necron Decurion is strong enough to go to tournaments with, and it does depict a very fluffy Necron build. The listed formations for the Eldar-Decurion seem like a very fluffy build, and they feel like a strong counter to the new Necrons (can engage them further than 24", can take Str D weapons which are the only things that can ignore the Reanimation Protocols), which all makes sense. If every codex here-out gets an absurdly powerful fluff-build, then that's cool, and we simply have to grit our teeth for up to 2 years for your codex to get the Decurion treatment.
My biggest fear now is that every "bad" codex is just going to stay bad. That it really is just a massive nerd-on for Necrons and Eldar, and everyone else's Decurion-like codex will be terrible. If their strategy is to make super-powered fluff builds, but then see the backlash that Necrons and Eldar get as a sign that they need to tone every other codex down, then we'll just be back where we started.
Seriously - the Necron, Eldar, and Space Marine codexes last time were much more powerful than everything else they released. Everyone got upset (understandably), and maybe that's why the other codexes started getting the "oh we better not make them too strong" approach. Then they creeped it up again until it hits the high of Necron, Eldar, and Space Marine codexes again, and then plummets down again? That'd be terrible. I hope after this codex that all the rest coming forward will be this powerful! I hope that I can rain a BILLION Tyranids from the sky, in addition to massively powerful Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures, because that's what the fluff is.
Yarium wrote: I'm pretty sure that Distort weapons will only be Str D on a to-hit or to-wound roll of 6. I know though that only that is still pretty insane.
As for the mass Str6 on Jetbikes. I'm honestly flabberghasted.
My only hope is that they stay consistent on the power level of these releases now for each army book. The Necron Decurion is strong enough to go to tournaments with, and it does depict a very fluffy Necron build. The listed formations for the Eldar-Decurion seem like a very fluffy build, and they feel like a strong counter to the new Necrons (can engage them further than 24", can take Str D weapons which are the only things that can ignore the Reanimation Protocols), which all makes sense. If every codex here-out gets an absurdly powerful fluff-build, then that's cool, and we simply have to grit our teeth for up to 2 years for your codex to get the Decurion treatment.
My biggest fear now is that every "bad" codex is just going to stay bad. That it really is just a massive nerd-on for Necrons and Eldar, and everyone else's Decurion-like codex will be terrible. If their strategy is to make super-powered fluff builds, but then see the backlash that Necrons and Eldar get as a sign that they need to tone every other codex down, then we'll just be back where we started.
Seriously - the Necron, Eldar, and Space Marine codexes last time were much more powerful than everything else they released. Everyone got upset (understandably), and maybe that's why the other codexes started getting the "oh we better not make them too strong" approach. Then they creeped it up again until it hits the high of Necron, Eldar, and Space Marine codexes again, and then plummets down again? That'd be terrible. I hope after this codex that all the rest coming forward will be this powerful! I hope that I can rain a BILLION Tyranids from the sky, in addition to massively powerful Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures, because that's what the fluff is.
It is weird that it loops like that - I have found that over the years as well.
That being said, maybe my old as bike marines will get shred bolters and bikes will no longer need to snap fire when jinking. Hell maybe space marines will get two wounds each... or bikes become toughness 6.... sigh....
Sir Arun wrote: Did someone here honestly compare crappy jetbikes with an entire army of terminators, the literal best of the best?
In lore - yes the best of the best.....
On the board.. I would like to see 1080 Deathwing terminators... Grey Knight Terminators, hell Space Marines Terminators go up against that bike army and tell me who wins
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
Sir Arun wrote: Did someone here honestly compare crappy jetbikes with an entire army of terminators, the literal best of the best?
Yeah, that was the point. Two armies of equal point value, one Saim-Hann and one 1st Company, both equally fluffy, but the jetbikes will kick the snot out of the terminators hands down, even though the terminators should be "the best of the best" fluff-wise. No fault of the players involved either as the Eldar player can't really be accused of cheese for building a list with lots of jetbikes and everything else in Wave Serpents - that's just how Saim-Hann roll, and terminators just happen to be terrible.
The rules are horribly unbalanced, so even if you're trying to play friendly and fluffy, it ends up immensely rewarding certain fluff builds and screwing others into the ground.
RunicFIN wrote: Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.
Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.
Going to reserve judgment until Saturday. Seems a slight, indirect buff to Guard and artillery lists, but that only really works for eternal war missions
Sir Arun wrote: Did someone here honestly compare crappy jetbikes with an entire army of terminators, the literal best of the best?
Yeah, that was the point. Two armies of equal point value, one Saim-Hann and one 1st Company, both equally fluffy, but the jetbikes will kick the snot out of the terminators hands down, even though the terminators should be "the best of the best" fluff-wise. No fault of the players involved either as the Eldar player can't really be accused of cheese for building a list with lots of jetbikes and everything else in Wave Serpents - that's just how Saim-Hann roll, and terminators just happen to be terrible.
The rules are horribly unbalanced, so even if you're trying to play friendly and fluffy, it ends up immensely rewarding certain fluff builds and screwing others into the ground.
That was exactly the point I was making. You can be a fluffy/casual (whatever word you want to use) player and pick an army that is better than another fluffy/casual army, because the balance of 40k is basically nonexistent. I use that as my go-to example to show that it's not just competitive players who are hurt by unbalanced things (in fact they're hurt less) but the casual gamers who will pick an army based on looks/fluff and it just so happens that the units Bob likes are better than the units Jim likes, because reasons.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.
Absurd if(and this is a big if) nothing else about the D-Scythe or Wraithguard profiles have changed.
If D-Scythes lose their Template and instead become the same range minus the Template, that's a significant change.
If Wraithguard become Extremely Bulky and can no longer be transported in Wave Serpents, that's a significant change.
I think that either of those changes would immediately do a big number on the potential power of Wraithguard having Destroyer weapons.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.
Absurd if(and this is a big if) nothing else about the D-Scythe or Wraithguard profiles have changed.
If D-Scythes lose their Template and instead become the same range minus the Template, that's a significant change.
If Wraithguard become Extremely Bulky and can no longer be transported in Wave Serpents, that's a significant change.
I think that either of those changes would immediately do a big number on the potential power of Wraithguard having Destroyer weapons.
Second one doesn't matter, people would just ally in DE with warp portal and deepstrike with no scatter anywhere.
Isn't the no scatter DS only for units who can already DS (ie, raiders)? If so, then a min squad of 5 would mean the archon couldn't fit in the raider with the wraithguard.
IIRC, he could join normally without a transport and they could then DS, but at least they'd have a chance at scattering.
Drasius wrote: Isn't the no scatter DS only for units who can already DS (ie, raiders)? If so, then a min squad of 5 would mean the archon couldn't fit in the raider with the wraithguard.
IIRC, he could join normally without a transport and they could then DS, but at least they'd have a chance at scattering.
No, the Webway portal doesn't need anything else. It simply grants its user and the squad he's in the ability to DS with no scatter, it grants the ability to DS, and the ability of no scatter.
Unit1126PLL wrote: This is basically my reaction to 40k right now, because I love the game and can't stop playing it:
I love it
I'm just glad we're all getting on the same page now. For years, people who dared express dissatisfaction were shouted down as whiners, personally derided for their comments. The defenders kept saying how GW was working towards a goal with the game, and that the accelerated rule cycles were just flukes, or a result of a bad 6th edition. But the team that couldn't do 6th right in the first place damn sure couldn't make 7th all that much better- it doesn't seem that it was really ever their goal to get things into shape.
But now hopefully 40k fans will be in a more healthy, unified group, everyone recognizing that the designers don't give a flying feth about balance and the game is insane, and either choosing to accept that and play, or choosing to not and leave.
I would think a 50/50 mix of scatter lasers and shuriken cannons would be the way to go. Bladestorm on a 6 is pretty nice when you are pumping out 60 shots, and you will still have 80 scatter laser shots...
The ranges are a bit skewed (36" vs. 24"), but they are Jetbikes. It's not like they won't be in range by the end of turn 1 anyways, and they can always just scoot away in the assault phase.
Drasius wrote: Isn't the no scatter DS only for units who can already DS (ie, raiders)? If so, then a min squad of 5 would mean the archon couldn't fit in the raider with the wraithguard.
IIRC, he could join normally without a transport and they could then DS, but at least they'd have a chance at scattering.
No, the Webway portal doesn't need anything else. It simply grants its user and the squad he's in the ability to DS with no scatter, it grants the ability to DS, and the ability of no scatter.
OK then. Cheers for clearing that up for me. I guess you can just say goodby to whatever unit the eldar player wants to delete then...
...If you're foolish enough to play them in the 1st place.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.
It's a bit unbalancing in that it can potentially do a lot of damage, but lets not forget the rule is currently a 6 to wound = instant death regardless of toughness, which is actually more powerful against T6+ stuff than being Destroyer on a 6 to wound.
It also depends how they price it and how the other stats for the distort weapons change. If the number of shots per point is very low they aren't going to be very competitive, hoping for the 1 in 36 chance that it does something epic to something expensive on your opponent's army is not really conducive to a good competitive army (it just pisses people off when your baneblade cops an unlucky roll).
While I agree GW aren't to be trusted, it's a bit early to call the sky is falling (at least on the distort stuff, the bikes are bad enough ).
Drasius wrote: Isn't the no scatter DS only for units who can already DS (ie, raiders)? If so, then a min squad of 5 would mean the archon couldn't fit in the raider with the wraithguard.
IIRC, he could join normally without a transport and they could then DS, but at least they'd have a chance at scattering.
Nope, WWP gives the bearer and any unit he joins no scatter DS
people just put them in transports so they can jink.
Also all the templates come off of any point on the vehicle, rather than having to be arrayed in DS formation.
A 6 to wound = instand death isn't as broken as S: D though.
Instant death doesn't affect vehicles. It could also be "countered" with Eternal Warrior.
The moment your IK/Stompa/Blaneblade/whathaveyou gets shot with S: D and blows up first turn by a single shot.. ID cannot deal THAT kind of damage.
That was one of the few advantages vehicles had vs MC's.
Additionally there is no g'tee that the wraith guard will stay troops - or can be taken as troops - given as 7th has done away with force org swapping armies.
Does it really matter though? S: D was reserved for Super Heavys that cost a FORTUNE points-wise for a reason... and ranged S: D was very, very rare. And now you get it on Wraithguards. The number of S: D and availability sky rockets with that change to ludicrous levels.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Additionally there is no g'tee that the wraith guard will stay troops - or can be taken as troops - given as 7th has done away with force org swapping armies.
Which is no problem as you have plenty of troops with all your S6 toting Jetbikes. With that many shots at a high strength in Troops you can just fill other slots with your Destroyer weapons.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.
It's a bit unbalancing in that it can potentially do a lot of damage, but lets not forget the rule is currently a 6 to wound = instant death regardless of toughness, which is actually more powerful against T6+ stuff than being Destroyer on a 6 to wound.
It also depends how they price it and how the other stats for the distort weapons change. If the number of shots per point is very low they aren't going to be very competitive, hoping for the 1 in 36 chance that it does something epic to something expensive on your opponent's army is not really conducive to a good competitive army (it just pisses people off when your baneblade cops an unlucky roll).
While I agree GW aren't to be trusted, it's a bit early to call the sky is falling (at least on the distort stuff, the bikes are bad enough ).
It's not going to gain the D trait on a 6 to wound. That would mean you are wounding a model twice. Roll to hit, then roll to wound. Roll a 6 to wound? Well, now you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table, where if you roll a 1, nothing happens. 2-5, bad stuff, 6 really bad stuff.
Remember, D weapons don't roll to wound. If they hit, you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table.
GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.
Unit1126PLL wrote: This is basically my reaction to 40k right now, because I love the game and can't stop playing it:
I love it
I'm just glad we're all getting on the same page now. For years, people who dared express dissatisfaction were shouted down as whiners, personally derided for their comments. The defenders kept saying how GW was working towards a goal with the game, and that the accelerated rule cycles were just flukes, or a result of a bad 6th edition. But the team that couldn't do 6th right in the first place damn sure couldn't make 7th all that much better- it doesn't seem that it was really ever their goal to get things into shape.
But now hopefully 40k fans will be in a more healthy, unified group, everyone recognizing that the designers don't give a flying feth about balance and the game is insane, and either choosing to accept that and play, or choosing to not and leave.
If only. There's already been people in the rumours thread (and of cours Runic here) proving that's already not the case, there's still 'blame the players' mentality and 'it's not too bad, play better'...
Thairne wrote: A 6 to wound = instand death isn't as broken as S: D though. Instant death doesn't affect vehicles. It could also be "countered" with Eternal Warrior. The moment your IK/Stompa/Blaneblade/whathaveyou gets shot with S: D and blows up first turn by a single shot.. ID cannot deal THAT kind of damage. That was one of the few advantages vehicles had vs MC's.
Yeah that's why I made my second comment that it depends how they price it and how the other stats of the weapons change. If it's expensive and you're not getting many shots, then the 1/36 chance that you get lucky and fry the IK/Stompa/Baneblade may not be worth it in a competitive setting.
I'm assuming Wraithknights are going to get very expensive becoming Gargantuan Creatures to match the likes of the IK, no idea what's going to happen to the Wraithguard, but they could easily price themselves out of being competitive.
All I'm saying it maybe wait another week and see what the next batch of rumours bring
Wraithguard as Troops doesn't even matter with the decurion style option. Just take the jetbike formation (since it's the cheapest and alsmot certainly the best unless everything else in the codex is buffed into the stratosphere) and then spam wraith host or wraith construct formations as points allow.
Or just take a farseer, 2 min jetbikes and then take 3 wraithguard as elites and wraithlord/knight as heavy.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.
It's a bit unbalancing in that it can potentially do a lot of damage, but lets not forget the rule is currently a 6 to wound = instant death regardless of toughness, which is actually more powerful against T6+ stuff than being Destroyer on a 6 to wound.
It also depends how they price it and how the other stats for the distort weapons change. If the number of shots per point is very low they aren't going to be very competitive, hoping for the 1 in 36 chance that it does something epic to something expensive on your opponent's army is not really conducive to a good competitive army (it just pisses people off when your baneblade cops an unlucky roll).
While I agree GW aren't to be trusted, it's a bit early to call the sky is falling (at least on the distort stuff, the bikes are bad enough ).
It's not going to gain the D trait on a 6 to wound. That would mean you are wounding a model twice. Roll to hit, then roll to wound. Roll a 6 to wound? Well, now you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table, where if you roll a 1, nothing happens. 2-5, bad stuff, 6 really bad stuff.
Remember, D weapons don't roll to wound. If they hit, you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table.
GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.
Tesla/Taser stuff gets two extra hits on a 6, and the Harlequins Caress is auto wound at AP2 on a 6 to hit. That's about it though.
Totally agree, it won't be str d on a 6, that is just too absurd
Tamwulf wrote: GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.
One of the harlequin weapons gets rending on a 6 to hit.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.
It's a bit unbalancing in that it can potentially do a lot of damage, but lets not forget the rule is currently a 6 to wound = instant death regardless of toughness, which is actually more powerful against T6+ stuff than being Destroyer on a 6 to wound.
It also depends how they price it and how the other stats for the distort weapons change. If the number of shots per point is very low they aren't going to be very competitive, hoping for the 1 in 36 chance that it does something epic to something expensive on your opponent's army is not really conducive to a good competitive army (it just pisses people off when your baneblade cops an unlucky roll).
While I agree GW aren't to be trusted, it's a bit early to call the sky is falling (at least on the distort stuff, the bikes are bad enough ).
It's not going to gain the D trait on a 6 to wound. That would mean you are wounding a model twice. Roll to hit, then roll to wound. Roll a 6 to wound? Well, now you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table, where if you roll a 1, nothing happens. 2-5, bad stuff, 6 really bad stuff.
Remember, D weapons don't roll to wound. If they hit, you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table.
GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.
Tesla/Taser stuff gets two extra hits on a 6, and the Harlequins Caress is auto wound at AP2 on a 6 to hit. That's about it though.
Totally agree, it won't be str d on a 6, that is just too absurd
Maybe they get a special weapon, one per squad, that has S: D? You can bet your hobby knife I will pour every shot into them to take that out of the game asap.
Commenting because I had suggested that Bolters should get Shred in the Proposed Rules a month or so back, and it's funny to see that argument coming up again as Eldar become a new Laser Light Show.
MagicJuggler wrote: Commenting because I had suggested that Bolters should get Shred in the Proposed Rules a month or so back, and it's funny to see that argument coming up again as Eldar become a new Laser Light Show.
Trust me! Once these jetbikes come out - these snobs will still say bolters are fine - cause they kill gardsmen pretty good at point blank range.
It's not going to gain the D trait on a 6 to wound. That would mean you are wounding a model twice. Roll to hit, then roll to wound. Roll a 6 to wound? Well, now you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table, where if you roll a 1, nothing happens. 2-5, bad stuff, 6 really bad stuff.
Remember, D weapons don't roll to wound. If they hit, you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table.
GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.
Making the Hemlock's Heavy D-Scythe Torrent instead of small blast.
On another note, a 2-3 Land Raider list (Black Templar) could probably annoy the crap out of the jetbikes.
Theres always the option to ignore the LR because you are faster than it. Outside of that - destroying it with a WK would be absurdy easy. Theres also bright lances, prisim cannons, d cannons, fire dragons...come on man LR is just bad - we wish it was good but it's bad.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Additionally there is no g'tee that the wraith guard will stay troops - or can be taken as troops - given as 7th has done away with force org swapping armies.
Does it really matter if they can be taken as troops or not? Unbound is a thing, and if the Wraithguard have ranged D-weapons, then it would take one heck of a Formation Rule for me NOT to take them in every game.
It would be a HUGE bump to make Wraithknights into Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures. It would make them even BETTER then they are now. You would NEVER be able to one shot a Wraithknight, and Sniper weapons- which are the most effective way to deal with a WK now- are pretty much useless against a GMC WK. The WK would gain Feel no Pain! Think about that! Right now, a WK can only get a 5+ Invulnerable for a sizable chunk chunk of points and a not so good weapons load out. Now, I would never have to take a scattershield. The WK would gain STOMP! Say good bye to anything in close combat with the WK. No tar pitting! Finally, a WK would be able to shoot ALL it's weapons every turn at different targets. No, there is no way the WK will become a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature- it'll be too good. Even at 500 points, you would still want to take one. Making it a Lord of War choice? GW has been backing WAY off Lords of War choices, and reserving that for character models. Heck, let's make the WK a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature, Lord of War, Character so I can make it my armies Warlord. Have fun against that!
I can see an army of 20 Jet Bikes, a couple Warlocks/Farseer on Jetbikes, 2-3 Wave Serpents with Wraithguard, and a couple Wraithknights. That will probably be the army to beat.
MagicJuggler wrote: Commenting because I had suggested that Bolters should get Shred in the Proposed Rules a month or so back, and it's funny to see that argument coming up again as Eldar become a new Laser Light Show.
Man, that would make my Sisters absolutely ridiculous.
There needs to be something that isn't quite as overboard as shred and that doesn't quite benefit hordes as much as it does the more expensive tac marines that usually carry bolters.
RunicFIN wrote: Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.
Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.
As a Necron?
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
Of course, none of these are "hard" counters. Vehicles would still have to contend with Fire Dragons, for example. We'd have to fiddle with the list to take into account DE or Harlequin allies. But, overall, I don't think it's impossible to have an army that does just fine against Scatter Laser bikes.
The issue here is not just the insane number of shots and the price, it is also the jetbikes themselves.
Using the range of the scatter laser with the 2d6 move, jetbikes are going to be just as hard to combat as before, but now will be cutting down entire units a turn as well.
it would take one heck of a Formation Rule for me NOT to take them in every game.
Totally agree. There is no way that formations would balance this.
RunicFIN wrote: Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.
Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.
As a Necron?
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
Of course, none of these are "hard" counters. Vehicles would still have to contend with Fire Dragons, for example. We'd have to fiddle with the list to take into account DE or Harlequin allies. But, overall, I don't think it's impossible to have an army that does just fine against Scatter Laser bikes.
That said, I do hope it's a typo.
For 2, are Jetbikes not faster than Flyrants?
Also, I mean you kind of mentioned it, but this example (160 S6 shots in 1080 points) still leaves a lot of points for things like anti tank. It's less than half your points in a 2500 points match. And if Wraith stuff all has sD weapons, that can deal with stuff S6 might struggle with.
You know, I don't understand why Phil Kelly doesn't have the same reputation that Matt Ward does. He's much more blatant about his favoritism than Ward was.
RunicFIN wrote: Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.
Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.
As a Necron?
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
Of course, none of these are "hard" counters. Vehicles would still have to contend with Fire Dragons, for example. We'd have to fiddle with the list to take into account DE or Harlequin allies. But, overall, I don't think it's impossible to have an army that does just fine against Scatter Laser bikes.
That said, I do hope it's a typo.
For 2, are Jetbikes not faster than Flyrants?
Also, I mean you kind of mentioned it, but this example (160 S6 shots in 1080 points) still leaves a lot of points for things like anti tank. It's less than half your points in a 2500 points match. And if Wraith stuff all has sD weapons, that can deal with stuff S6 might struggle with.
First of all, who the heck plays at 2500? gaks cray
Jetbikes are faster overall, but it's not quite the same. Flyrants move 24" per turn while still being able to shoot, so there's nothing stopping them from getting behind vehicles to get to that AV11 in the rear on turn 2, you just can't stop it. Jetbikes can't reliably get to a rear arc the same way. They'd have to be right in front of the vehicle and then move 12" over it, and I don't know any player who would just set themselves up for that sort of turn. If they Turbo Boost turn 1 behind them, the vehicles will just, you know, turn around, or jump to a new position with their own 12" movement.
Tamwulf wrote: I would think a 50/50 mix of scatter lasers and shuriken cannons would be the way to go. Bladestorm on a 6 is pretty nice when you are pumping out 60 shots, and you will still have 80 scatter laser shots...
The ranges are a bit skewed (36" vs. 24"), but they are Jetbikes. It's not like they won't be in range by the end of turn 1 anyways, and they can always just scoot away in the assault phase.
I have a fifty fifty mix for you. Half pity you will never get a game, and half astonishment you would think any opponent would enjoy that game.
Tamwulf wrote: I would think a 50/50 mix of scatter lasers and shuriken cannons would be the way to go. Bladestorm on a 6 is pretty nice when you are pumping out 60 shots, and you will still have 80 scatter laser shots...
The ranges are a bit skewed (36" vs. 24"), but they are Jetbikes. It's not like they won't be in range by the end of turn 1 anyways, and they can always just scoot away in the assault phase.
I have a fifty fifty mix for you. Half pity you will never get a game, and half astonishment you would think any opponent would enjoy that game.
Oh, you're as silly as Gee-Dub if you think this game is about having fun!
It's about endless hours of repetitive painting that you hate so that you can field your brilliant fully painted army two editions too late, having to proxy half the equipment against a guy with a grey horde of whatever army is the flavour of the month laughing as he abuses the latest un-thought out codex's broken units which he will drop in a month when the new Tau codex comes out.
RunicFIN wrote: Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.
Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.
As a Necron?
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
Of course, none of these are "hard" counters. Vehicles would still have to contend with Fire Dragons, for example. We'd have to fiddle with the list to take into account DE or Harlequin allies. But, overall, I don't think it's impossible to have an army that does just fine against Scatter Laser bikes.
That said, I do hope it's a typo.
For 2, are Jetbikes not faster than Flyrants?
Also, I mean you kind of mentioned it, but this example (160 S6 shots in 1080 points) still leaves a lot of points for things like anti tank. It's less than half your points in a 2500 points match. And if Wraith stuff all has sD weapons, that can deal with stuff S6 might struggle with.
First of all, who the heck plays at 2500? gaks cray
Jetbikes are faster overall, but it's not quite the same. Flyrants move 24" per turn while still being able to shoot, so there's nothing stopping them from getting behind vehicles to get to that AV11 in the rear on turn 2, you just can't stop it. Jetbikes can't reliably get to a rear arc the same way. They'd have to be right in front of the vehicle and then move 12" over it, and I don't know any player who would just set themselves up for that sort of turn. If they Turbo Boost turn 1 behind them, the vehicles will just, you know, turn around, or jump to a new position with their own 12" movement.
2500 is great - 1850 is the tournament build right now - used to be 1500 but 2500 id say is the most next fun point value esp for TAC lists.
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
You have a 2+ character out front? That's cute when facing high mobility opponents. They just come from a different angle and kill everything but the 2+. Also, math is hard, but: 2+ rerollable is 1/36 failed wounds. With a 4+ RP, that makes 1/72. Orikan takes wounds.
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
Except for Misfortune, Lances, etc.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
Can't bring them back if they are all dead. 4+/4+ is what? 1/4 dead. 160 shots/120 Hit/100 Wound. Dead unit.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
You care, since they evaporate those flayed ones.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
Good thing there isn't a rest of the eldar army. Also, good luck getting objectives and hope the other 800 points of their army didn't bring lances or D.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
8 Wounds at T8. Hmm.
160 Shots. BS4, so 120 hit. 20 Wounds. What's his save again? Oh yeah, he's dead. Even with Invis for one turn or 2+ for one turn, they just kill the rest of your army and wait for you to run out of tricks.
actually defending something as ludicrous as a scatter laser on every jet bike has a clear case of - wanting to play eldar with a scatter laser on every jet bike.
how about this - every space marine bike gets and assault cannon? It's literally the same level of idiocy.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
I could have gone in a slightly different direction with that joke, but I figure this board is PG.
but not in a fluff way. The net effect of a 6 on a Distortion cannon is about as bad an effect of any weapon in 40K (again, fluffwise). I just don't see how wraithscythes fit inot this equation...pretty silly really. and the downside is that they just gave another reason to never take the wraithblade option which just plain sucks.
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
You have a 2+ character out front? That's cute when facing high mobility opponents. They just come from a different angle and kill everything but the 2+. Also, math is hard, but: 2+ rerollable is 1/36 failed wounds. With a 4+ RP, that makes 1/72. Orikan takes wounds.
160 shots
106.66 hits
71.11 wounds (Lychguard are T5, so the unit is T5)
2+ rerolling makes that 1.97 wounds
4+++ rerolling 1s makes that .823 wounds
2+ character statistically ignores.
But you're right, you can maneuver around to the Lychguard, who then take 6.5 wounds statistically. Pretty good, but not enough to wipe the unit. And then you dedicated every bike into shooting a single unit for the entire turn.
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
Except for Misfortune, Lances, etc.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
Good thing there isn't a rest of the eldar army. Also, good luck getting objectives and hope the other 800 points of their army didn't bring lances or D.
As I said, we'd have to deal with that still. But just by bringing them you mitigated 1080 points of his army, more than half in a Tournament setting or any reasonably costed game. And those vehicles can still jink against any rends on most of your vehicles (most important being Ghost Arks, whose passengers don't care about Jinking anyway).
The Obelisk is only 300 points, and is a Superheavy Skimmer, so moves 12, can Deep Strike, or can start on the board with a 3++. It's not anywhere close to a liability.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
Can't bring them back if they are all dead. 4+/4+ is what? 1/4 dead. 160 shots/120 Hit/100 Wound. Dead unit.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
You care, since they evaporate those flayed ones.
In both of those situations, you put 1080 points of shooting into a 130-260 point unit. I would take that trade any day of the week. Now, the rest of my army moves up.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
8 Wounds at T8. Hmm.
160 Shots. BS4, so 120 hit. 20 Wounds. What's his save again? Oh yeah, he's dead. Even with Invis for one turn or 2+ for one turn, they just kill the rest of your army and wait for you to run out of tricks.
It's not perfect, but it's a giant fire magnet that can shrug off a lot of that shooting. 20 wounds is down to 5 if against the 4++/4+++ of the crypteks, or down to .83 if against the Cryptek with a Nightmare Shroud. No biggie. Again, a single unit soaking up over a thousand points of shooting for a turn and not dying is not a bad thing. I don't know why you would even think that shooting that much into a unit worth half of the points cost is a win for the Eldar.
sassmcsass wrote: Noise marines just got better. Torrenting AP3 ignores cover is going to be a must.
Heldrakes & Land Raider Redeemers too, right?
I said this on the other thread. If you think a Redeemer is going to get in range then you haven't ever played decent Eldar players. They'll part before it like a school of fish part before a shark. Heldrakes just need to be focuses a little bit and can get glanced to death with a few double 6s. You Jink and that also removes the threat.
Malcador Infernus, with an AP3 Hellstorm template, Sonic Dreadnaughts, And apparently there's an Ignores Cover order on Guard. I'll be picking up a Malcador even as I rebuild my Eldar army to do this.
The point is that you don't need to put the full thousand points into most things. And for the really tough ones you wait until everything else is dead or get misfortune on a unit or two. Psychic buffs from the nigh-on required Farseer makes it event worse.
Basically, none of those are counters. They are just something that will live a turn or two before losing.
TheCustomLime wrote: You know, I don't understand why Phil Kelly doesn't have the same reputation that Matt Ward does. He's much more blatant about his favoritism than Ward was.
Kelly tends to make a fluffy codex full of rather uninspiring crap choices sprinkled in with 2-3 totally overpowered choices that make no sense whatsoever and are completely game breaking. Ward puts a lot of very strong all over the codex. Kelly's fluff is better than Ward though.
Sisters of Battle have a decent choice with the new Plasma Obliterator. Throw Dominions with Jacobus and a Simulacrum in for S7 AP2 Massive Blast Ignores Cover.
pretre wrote: The point is that you don't need to put the full thousand points into most things. And for the really tough ones you wait until everything else is dead or get misfortune on a unit or two. Psychic buffs from the nigh-on required Farseer makes it event worse.
Basically, none of those are counters. They are just something that will live a turn or two before losing.
Well said.
I think that it should also be mentioned that, since we're talking about a few hundred points of Necrons surviving a turn of shooting from over a thousand points of the most broken unit in the game, hands down, it really says something about just how ridiculously overpowered Necrons are with Decurion.
TheCustomLime wrote: You know, I don't understand why Phil Kelly doesn't have the same reputation that Matt Ward does. He's much more blatant about his favoritism than Ward was.
Kelly tends to make a fluffy codex full of rather uninspiring crap choices sprinkled in with 2-3 totally overpowered choices that make no sense whatsoever and are completely game breaking. Ward puts a lot of very strong all over the codex. Kelly's fluff is better than Ward though.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh man, that's a good one. Kelly is responsible for Wolfy McWolfy with Wolfclaws and Wolf Talismans.
He's also been responsible for the most broken books in both Fantasy and 40k, repeatedly. Space Wolves with JoTWW, two to three(or possibly four?) editions worth of C: Eldar, and the previous Vampire Counts book all can be laid pretty squarely at his feet.
pretre wrote: The point is that you don't need to put the full thousand points into most things. And for the really tough ones you wait until everything else is dead or get misfortune on a unit or two. Psychic buffs from the nigh-on required Farseer makes it event worse.
Basically, none of those are counters. They are just something that will live a turn or two before losing.
Of course, I never said hard counter. Soft counters are still counters nonetheless. Those 6 items are just things that are good against 1080 points of Jetbikes with Scatterlasers, and none of them are even close to that points total. They're not the whole army. Just as the Jetbikes get Fire Dragons and Wraithknights, the Necrons will be getting other units on the table too. An Eldar player putting down 1080 points of Jetbikes with added Fire Warriors doesn't automatically win the game.
Imagine for a second that I took a Decurion with just 1079 points of Flayed Ones and Warriors. 13 ppm, so 83 of them. Scatter Lasers kill 13 per turn: 160 shots, 106.6 hits, 53.3 wounds, 26.6 after armor saves, 13.3 after Reanimate, so 13 die. Wow. 1080 points of Jetbikes killed ~169 points of Warriors/Flayed Ones.
People keep saying "well, any 100~200 point unit automatically dies to 160 shots from Scatterbikes". No gak. Most units die with they take focus fire from 1080 points of shooting. I would be really surprised if they statistically didn't. Necrons do because they're the hardiest army in the game, and even then it's only the most durable deathstars with high points costs. But those 1080 points of Jetbikes don't automatically table an opponent on Turn 2, so calm the heck down.
Let me reiterate: I don't think that this is balanced. I hope it's a typo. I'm not defending Eldar by any stretch of the imagination. But, the sky is not literally falling. I'm just saying there are ways to play around anything.
I dare you to give a list for DA and Skitarii that could have a snowballs chance in hell versus that.
For everyone not playing something OP as a Necron Decurion, the sky is INDEED falling.
TheCustomLime wrote: You know, I don't understand why Phil Kelly doesn't have the same reputation that Matt Ward does. He's much more blatant about his favoritism than Ward was.
Kelly tends to make a fluffy codex full of rather uninspiring crap choices sprinkled in with 2-3 totally overpowered choices that make no sense whatsoever and are completely game breaking. Ward puts a lot of very strong all over the codex. Kelly's fluff is better than Ward though.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh man, that's a good one. Kelly is responsible for Wolfy McWolfy with Wolfclaws and Wolf Talismans. He's also been responsible for the most broken books in both Fantasy and 40k, repeatedly. Space Wolves with JoTWW, two to three(or possibly four?) editions worth of C: Eldar, and the previous Vampire Counts book all can be laid pretty squarely at his feet.
However his Eldar fluff is good and consistent from book to book. Which is more can be said about Wards fluff concerning anything but Ultramarines. Also it's the same Ward who totally broke Warhammer 7th (I think?) with Daemons.
And then who later gave the High Elves a cheap magic banner which conferred almost total immunity to the entire Daemons army to the unit carrying it, which could be any unit capable of carrying a 50pt banner. And who randomly brought in that Elves needed soulstones to stop slaanesh eating their souls, despite it never being mentioned before.
Let me reiterate: I don't think that this is balanced. I hope it's a typo. I'm not defending Eldar by any stretch of the imagination. But, the sky is not literally falling. I'm just saying there are ways to play around anything.
The sky might not be falling for a decurion army, but for almost every other force out there there is no way of 'playing around' with mid strength high volume 36 inch range JSJ bikes at a bargain price.
Requizen wrote: Imagine for a second that I took a Decurion with just 1079 points of Flayed Ones and Warriors. 13 ppm, so 83 of them. Scatter Lasers kill 13 per turn: 160 shots, 106.6 hits, 53.3 wounds, 26.6 after armor saves, 13.3 after Reanimate, so 13 die. Wow. 1080 points of Jetbikes killed ~169 points of Warriors/Flayed Ones.
Math. 160 Shots. 120 Hits. 100 Wounds. 50 After Saves. 25 After Reanimate. Assuming we shoot the entire 160 at that one unit, don't use farseers, etc.
Thairne wrote: I dare you to give a list for DA and Skitarii that could have a snowballs chance in hell versus that.
For everyone not playing something OP as a Necron Decurion, the sky is INDEED falling.
If the rumours about Craftworld jetbikes dropping to 4+ are true you could take several detachments consisting of one powerfield Interrogator-Chaplain (for Keeper of the Relics), two minimum Scout squads, and three naked Sicarians. 13/12/12 with a 4++ might live long enough to do something and one Sicarian is removing four jetbikes a turn.
Not particularly good but it might have a snowball's chance in hell.
Land raiders are not the answer. 6" max if going to disembark, 6" disembark. That's 12". How pray tell is anyone going to get into assault range of a 12" move, 36" range unit which has a 18"tubo boost if needed with a landraider?
Anything with side armour lower than 13 is not an answer for obvious reasons.
Infantry on foot/jp/cavalry/beast is not an answer due to the sheer amount of firepower which will decimate them.
Pods are not an answer as they will just move away in their turn.
Mass horde is not an answer as they will die in droves.
Mcs are not an answer due to the sheer amount of saves they will have to make.
FMCs are not an answer due to the sheer amount of shots will mean plenty of 6's to hit - especially with guide.
Artillery is not the answer because that amount of shots wounding on 5+ will take them down at a very quick rate.
Void shields are not the answer because they won't stand up to that many st6 shots for any remote amount of time.
What is the answer? What actually has a points efficiency at taking down 27pt jetbikes that could survive their fire power? 3 CADs with 3 typhons? That's all I can think of. And the jet bikes would still out score them.
And to those who say it will 'only' take down 30 tac marines in one turn (which is in itself a ridiculous use of the word 'only') - jet bikes are even more durable due to jink and 36" effective range compared to 12" effective range.
If tac marines could take a bolter with 4 st6 ap6 shots, not have jink, not have a 12" move, and not have a turbo boost for 30pts, people would be yelling cheese at the top of their lungs. So a jet bike having all of that at 27pts is insane!
It is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in 40k by a long margin. And that includes 3rd ed BA rhino rush, serpent shields and the current rp wraiths. It makes all of those look like overcosted trash.
Let me reiterate: I don't think that this is balanced. I hope it's a typo. I'm not defending Eldar by any stretch of the imagination. But, the sky is not literally falling. I'm just saying there are ways to play around anything.
The sky might not be falling for a decurion army, but for almost every other force out there there is no way of 'playing around' with mid strength high volume 36 inch range JSJ bikes at a bargain price.
I don't believe that for a second.
Remember when 7th came out? Everyone was screaming and wailing because the only army that would ever win any games ever again was Daemons. They could summon 2000+ extra points! That's so broken I can't even comprehend it!
Oh, but they're not dominating? The Daemon lists we see winning tournaments are Deathstars that do minimal summoning for a few extra Daemonettes or the occasional Greater Daemon if they're feeling spicy. And even then, we've seen Scouts win tournaments and Lictors win tournaments, kicking Daemon players out quite handily. If those tryhard tournament players knew that Summoning was so broken that it literally couldn't be countered, then why aren't they rolling up to events with 6000+ points of Daemons in a box?
Even if these changes go through (which, again, I don't hope they do), Scatterbikes are going to be a power unit. People will find ways to play around them, and then they'll still be scary but it'll just be a thing to deal with, like the outright terrifying Wolfstar with friends for all those scary upgrades. Or Wraiths. Or Screamerstar. Or current-edition Wraithknights. Or Invisible Khornedogs. I can go on.
Requizen wrote: Imagine for a second that I took a Decurion with just 1079 points of Flayed Ones and Warriors. 13 ppm, so 83 of them. Scatter Lasers kill 13 per turn: 160 shots, 106.6 hits, 53.3 wounds, 26.6 after armor saves, 13.3 after Reanimate, so 13 die. Wow. 1080 points of Jetbikes killed ~169 points of Warriors/Flayed Ones.
Math. 160 Shots. 120 Hits. 100 Wounds. 50 After Saves. 25 After Reanimate. Assuming we shoot the entire 160 at that one unit, don't use farseers, etc.
Right, misclick on the calculator.
Ok, 25 die. They didn't obliterate the entire army in one go. They didn't even do half of the 83 equivalently pointed models. I'm still not worried.
Anyone trying to claim 27pts for 4 st6 shots on a bs4, 3+ t4 model with 4+ jink, 12" move and 18" (or 24"?) Turbo boost base with access to OS is absolutely insanely deluded or has absolutely no concept of balance or fairness in the game.
Poly Ranger wrote: Anyone trying to claim 27pts for 4 st6 shots on a bs4, 3+ t4 model with 4+ jink, 12" move and 18" (or 24"?) Turbo boost base with access to OS is absolutely insanely deluded or has absolutely no concept of balance or fairness in the game.
I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.
And how are warriors going to get into rapid fire range or flayed ones in charge range to do any decent damage back? 20 st4 shots from a full strength warrior squad isn't going to do jack to a jet bike unit compared to what they are shooting back.
I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.
Gotta be honest - This game is absolutely unplayable if this change comes into effect.
Ok, 25 die. They didn't obliterate the entire army in one go. They didn't even do half of the 83 equivalently pointed models. I'm still not worried.
You're not worried that just under a third of your models just got evaporated in a single shooting phase and that you have very little chance of inflicting the same amount of damage in return due to them easily avoiding being in range of your guns?
That they don't kill the whole army in one turn is not good if the stuff you have left is still in no position to be able to actually do anything. Deleting 25 models a turn means the Necron player is tabled by the end of Turn 4, with very little they could do due to being too slow and too short ranged.
Martel732 wrote: 36" range on a jet bike is fundamentally different than anything you listed Requizen.
True, but just because it's not something that exists currently doesn't mean it ends the game by itself. Again - Daemon Summoning is fundamentally different from anything we had seen in the past. It literally didn't exist until 7th edition. And everyone screamed that it would destroy the game and no one would ever play 40k again because it's such an impossible army to play against. But people worked around it.
Yes, Scatterbikes are going to make Eldar even more of a top dog than they are. Yes, it's extremely powerful and shouldn't be part of the game. But if it is, people will find a way to play with it. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.
I'm pretty sure that's been known for awhile. I was under the delusion recently with all the 7th edition books that they might actually care, until now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I legit feel bad for a lot of armies out there (except Necrons). Eldar are going to have things that most armies can't counter.
I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.
Gotta be honest - This game is absolutely unplayable if this change comes into effect.
Except it's not. All of you doomsayers, and there's many, need to remember one thing. If you aren't prepared to handle a game, turn it down. If you're too scared or your army isn't equipped for a game against a specific list, turn the game down and move on. Ask for a different list, like limiting Jetbikes to the old 1 in 3 or asking for no Super Heavies or Gargantuans. They say no, they're turning you down now and obviously the two of you are playing different games. The game isn't unplayable. Some players, and the keyword is SOME will abuse this to no end. Don't play against their cheese if you don't like it. But being the definition for exaggerated apocalypse doesn't help yourself, the game or the people that actually like Eldar for being Eldar and don't field the Cheesex spam lists.
Requizen wrote: Remember when 7th came out? Everyone was screaming and wailing because the only army that would ever win any games ever again was Daemons. They could summon 2000+ extra points! That's so broken I can't even comprehend it!
I have been vocal that I hope we are wrong and something else is in play. That being said, this is so much above the summoning spam issue, it isn't even funny. 10 Long Range D weapons and 160 S6 AP6 shots on Jetbikes with potential for TL or Rending at 1850 is wrong as hell. Find me a list that could even survive 4 turns, forget win, and I'll give you a cookie.
But there are so many other games where I don't have to worry about it. Gravstars I can kinda hide from a gravstar. Maybe their invis fails. Maybe their gate fails. Maybe. But this? You can't hide from the bikes and they outrange all Imperial special weapons. And the heavy weapons the Imperium has don't have enough shots coming back.
Requizen wrote: True, but just because it's not something that exists currently doesn't mean it ends the game by itself. Again - Daemon Summoning is fundamentally different from anything we had seen in the past. It literally didn't exist until 7th edition. And everyone screamed that it would destroy the game and no one would ever play 40k again because it's such an impossible army to play against. But people worked around it.
Actually, the reason is that we had limited information and incorrectly assessed the threat. People also don't want to go to a tournament with 200 extra models and not finish every game because of chaining summoning.
This is quite simple: you shoot your opponent off the board in 1-3 turns. Unless there is a very big shoe that's going to drop, you can't stand against it unless you stay off the board until turn 5.
Martel732 wrote: 36" range on a jet bike is fundamentally different than anything you listed Requizen.
True, but just because it's not something that exists currently doesn't mean it ends the game by itself. Again - Daemon Summoning is fundamentally different from anything we had seen in the past. It literally didn't exist until 7th edition. And everyone screamed that it would destroy the game and no one would ever play 40k again because it's such an impossible army to play against. But people worked around it.
Yes, Scatterbikes are going to make Eldar even more of a top dog than they are. Yes, it's extremely powerful and shouldn't be part of the game. But if it is, people will find a way to play with it. It's happened before, it'll happen again.
Deamon summoning meant that you had to dedicate a huge proportion of your list to it and thus drastically reduce your damage out put. That was why deamon summoning wasn't as good as originally predicted. Your opponents army was going intouched (relatively) and so could target one summoned unit after another with little loss in efficiency.
This however is all about damage output. It completely misses the steps deamon summoning needed to be effective and just auto provides an insane amount of damage output with your opponent being crippled and unable to do anything about it. It literally has no disadvantages that cannot be covered - unlike summoning lists.
Should I start cutting off the Shuriken catapaults on my Jetbikes and gluing on Scatterlasers/ Shuriken cannons?
GW dun fethed up. If they wanted us to replace all of our old Jetbikes with the new ones they should've made the cheesy new option an entirely new gun. Not one that a lot of Eldar players have a ton of lying around in their bitz box.
This adversely affects tournament players and people who have Eldar playing, WAAC friends. Saying that the game is destroyed/unplayable/broken/dead is crazy. It's like people who complained because Dark Souls got an easy mode or whatever when they are under no obligation to play it.
Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.
Davylove21 wrote: This adversely affects tournament players and people who have Eldar playing, WAAC friends. Saying that the game is destroyed/unplayable/broken/dead is crazy. It's like people who complained because Dark Souls got an easy mode or whatever when they are under no obligation to play it.
Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Wait until the codex is official, Lime. Just in case. There is still that tiny glimmer of hope that something is wrong with the information.
Yeah, we might find that scatterlasers have increased to 5 shots each and have Rending
SharkoutofWata wrote: Wait until the codex is official, Lime. Just in case. There is still that tiny glimmer of hope that something is wrong with the information.
I hope so too. I really, really hope that Eldar aren't going to be this broken. But knowing Gee Dubs and Mr. Kelly...
Davylove21 wrote: Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.
Each autocannon shot = 1/2 Hit. 5/6 Wound. 1/3 Fail Save. So... 5/36 or 10/36 per autocannon. So you need 4 autocannons to kill a single bike. How many do you fit in a list?
In return, that single bike can kill: 3/4 Hit, 5/6 Wound, 2/3 Fail Save (cover). 30/72 or 120/72 per SL with cover. 60/24 without. So 1-3 Guard per Jetbike. I have 40 or so.
Chances are you won't have any infantry left after a turn or so to even fire the autocannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poly Ranger wrote: Also - nothing like this has ever remotely happened before.
Not sure if serious.
We've had overpowered lists/armies/combos before, but not to this extent. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
160 SL shots on Jetbikes plus 10 Long Range Destroyers plus Psychic Buffs is a big measure to live up to.
Davylove21 wrote: This adversely affects tournament players and people who have Eldar playing, WAAC friends. Saying that the game is destroyed/unplayable/broken/dead is crazy. It's like people who complained because Dark Souls got an easy mode or whatever when they are under no obligation to play it.
Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.
Sure - if you don't mind losing 89 guardsmen/heavy wepons teams (IDs T3) a turn. And an autocannon causes 0.56 wounds against jetbikes a turn. How many auto cannons you going to spam at 1850pts? Also remember the extra stuff eldar will have and that you don't want HWSs as theu will be IDd so need to be hidden in blobs (not very effectively with the amount of casualties you'll be taking).
A Town Called Malus wrote: And who randomly brought in that Elves needed soulstones to stop slaanesh eating their souls, despite it never being mentioned before.
Uh, what do you think the Waystones on Ulthuan have been for?
Davylove21 wrote: Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.
Each autocannon shot = 1/2 Hit. 5/6 Wound. 1/3 Fail Save. So... 5/36 or 10/36 per autocannon. So you need 4 autocannons to kill a single bike. How many do you fit in a list?
In return, that single bike can kill: 3/4 Hit, 5/6 Wound, 2/3 Fail Save (cover). 30/72 or 120/72 per SL with cover. 60/24 without. So 1-3 Guard per Jetbike. I have 40 or so.
Chances are you won't have any infantry left after a turn or so to even fire the autocannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Poly Ranger wrote: Also - nothing like this has ever remotely happened before.
Not sure if serious.
We've had overpowered lists/armies/combos before, but not to this extent. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
160 SL shots on Jetbikes plus 10 Long Range Destroyers plus Psychic Buffs is a big measure to live up to.
No - being serious. Name me a unit with that damage output, that maneuverability, that range, that durability (factor range in) and scoring (or OS in 7th) for 270pts in the history of the game. Hell just name me a unit for 135pts with half the durability and firepower.
Bharring wrote: Autocannons aren't the right weapon for killing Jetbikes.
Not saying bikes are fine (omgwtfbbq is probably the best term for them), but there are better options.
What are the good options for a unit with a 12" move and a 36" gun with 4 S6 shots? I think GW is just trolling anyone who can do math now. Hopefully, the joke will be on them in the end.
I certainly hope so, because otherwise this bodes very poorly for the future of 40K i.e. they aren't even trying to balance the game at all, and have given up all pretence that the game is anything other than a way to sell expensive plastic kits.
Gotta be honest - This game is absolutely unplayable if this change comes into effect.
Except it's not. All of you doomsayers, and there's many, need to remember one thing. If you aren't prepared to handle a game, turn it down. If you're too scared or your army isn't equipped for a game against a specific list, turn the game down and move on. Ask for a different list, like limiting Jetbikes to the old 1 in 3 or asking for no Super Heavies or Gargantuans. They say no, they're turning you down now and obviously the two of you are playing different games. The game isn't unplayable. Some players, and the keyword is SOME will abuse this to no end. Don't play against their cheese if you don't like it. But being the definition for exaggerated apocalypse doesn't help yourself, the game or the people that actually like Eldar for being Eldar and don't field the Cheesex spam lists.
I like to play tournaments too - even my friendly games are mostly competitive or semi competitive lists. It's not exaggerated - maybe this game is going a different dirrection and just giving everything insane rules with necron and eldar being the beginning - I really don't see that happening though. Skiari are nothing like this. Short of giving marines 2+ saves with 5++ and 4+fnp and assault 3 rending bolters...i really don't see this game going anywhere but down.
Poly Ranger wrote: No - being serious. Name me a unit with that damage output, that maneuverability, that range, that durability (factor range in) and scoring (or OS in 7th) for 270pts in the history of the game. Hell just name me a unit for 135pts with half the durability and firepower.
TheCustomLime wrote: Ally in your own Eldar? I really can't see many good options for the IoM besides using Titans.
That's almost certainly going to be worse than the list I posted.
Even titans will lose to it.
Single Cad: 40 Jetbikes, 1-2 Jetseers, Wraithknight, 3-9 Vauls with D. I'm guessing 1850.
I would say to take a bunch of Russes, throw camo netting on them and stick them behind a ADL while using an Imperial Knight to go feth up the WK.
But all of that D fire puts a damper on that. I guess Mr. Kelly couldn't stomach the idea of his precious army even having a chance of losing against the Imperial Guard.
TheCustomLime wrote: Ally in your own Eldar? I really can't see many good options for the IoM besides using Titans.
Relic Whirlwind Scorpius? 48" range, S8 AP3, Ignore cover with the Battle of Keylek, Barrage the Warlock out, 13/12/10. 160
Downside? Uhh you can only take one if you don't have a Master of the Forge and Av12 can be glanced to death. It also means no Sicaran/Fire Raptor (and I think Keylek is banned for some tournaments).
Poly Ranger wrote: No - being serious. Name me a unit with that damage output, that maneuverability, that range, that durability (factor range in) and scoring (or OS in 7th) for 270pts in the history of the game. Hell just name me a unit for 135pts with half the durability and firepower.
A 5-man unit of eldar jetbikes all upgraded to the heavy weapon of your preference, obviously. Man, I thought you were gonna ask a difficult question.
A. All shots fried from jetbikes will land and wound while the Eldar opponent will fail all their armor saves.
B. Jetbikes will never have to jink since their 3+ armor will always be effective
C. No jetbike model will ever die or fall back.
D. Every model in the jetbike unit will always have full line of sight to their opponent.
E. Eldar opponents will line up out in the open and allow themselves to be shot to pieces at maximum range.
F. No Eldar jetbike will ever be charged and will always squirm out of range of CC while firing all their weapons to full effect.
G. Eldar will always go first and destroy half their opponent's army in the first turn.
I swear, every time there's a rules leak people collectively wet their pants and start raging. You'd think after so long people would know better than to lose their sh*t before we have a chance to even see the full codex.
Looks like Eldar are getting the buffs they needed to be competitive again, which is great news for the hobby. Str D weapons on wraith is probably the most obvious change they could have done in this codex and I don't see why people are impressed by it, the jet bikes will be lots of fun and I can't wait to see what else the eldar get in their codex, probably a lot of very good internal balance, which means stronger accross the board, with no more twin linking from scatter lasers and no more shooting the serpent shield, which is exactly what everyone expected. Well done GW, looks like another hit codex.
A. All shots fried from jetbikes will land and wound while the Eldar opponent will fail all their armor saves.
Obviously you missed all the math where we figured out how many unsaved wounds would occur from 160 shots.
B. Jetbikes will never have to jink since their 3+ armor will always be effective
Can you make all 6 units jink?
C. No jetbike model will ever die or fall back.
How many can you kill or force off the board in one turn?
D. Every model in the jetbike unit will always have full line of sight to their opponent.
12" move, 36" range. You figure it out.
E. Eldar opponents will line up out in the open and allow themselves to be shot to pieces at maximum range.
You may not be familiar with the idea of kiting. What unit is going to catch the jetbikes?
F. No Eldar jetbike will ever be charged and will always squirm out of range of CC while firing all their weapons to full effect.
12" move, 36" range. What unit is going to assault them?
G. Eldar will always go first and destroy half their opponent's army in the first turn.
Valid point. Can you kill 40 jetbikes in 6 units and 3 Batteries of Vauls in one turn? No? You just lost.
You'd think after so long people would know better than to lose their sh*t before we have a chance to even see the full codex.
Valid point. It is entirely possible that the WD is wrong on multiple fronts and/or we haven't seen some mitigating factor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Registered Ork Offender wrote: Looks like Eldar are getting the buffs they needed to be competitive again, which is great news for the hobby. Str D weapons on wraith is probably the most obvious change they could have done in this codex and I don't see why people are impressed by it, the jet bikes will be lots of fun and I can't wait to see what else the eldar get in their codex, probably a lot of very good internal balance, which means stronger accross the board, with no more twin linking from scatter lasers and no more shooting the serpent shield, which is exactly what everyone expected. Well done GW, looks like another hit codex.
Davylove21 wrote: This adversely affects tournament players and people who have Eldar playing, WAAC friends. Saying that the game is destroyed/unplayable/broken/dead is crazy. It's like people who complained because Dark Souls got an easy mode or whatever when they are under no obligation to play it.
Trying to overcome jetbike spam sounds fun, anyway. I'm sure Imperial Guard armies spamming autocannons wouldn't mind too much.
spamming bs3 auto cannons on t3 5+ models is one thing. Though I'd chalange you to get that many auto cannons for 1000 points in a gard army.
a platon can get you what? 12 autocannons for about 550 points right you also get some lasguns too? for that cost you can have 20 jetbikes with scatter lasers. they are bs4 to your mostly bs 3 - 3+ saves to your 5+ - and can move and shoot where you can't - you get a small range advantage but 36" range moving 12 inches is the exact same threat range. They are durable where your autocannon teams are getting 1 shot by a single str 6 wound and your platoons die with relative ease as well. it's not even close in terms of power.
Registered Ork Offender wrote: Looks like Eldar are getting the buffs they needed to be competitive again, which is great news for the hobby. Str D weapons on wraith is probably the most obvious change they could have done in this codex and I don't see why people are impressed by it, the jet bikes will be lots of fun and I can't wait to see what else the eldar get in their codex, probably a lot of very good internal balance, which means stronger accross the board, with no more twin linking from scatter lasers and no more shooting the serpent shield, which is exactly what everyone expected. Well done GW, looks like another hit codex.
Not sure if serious...
Just being honest, we'll have to wait a week to see if I'm right or not.
Poly Ranger wrote: Anyone trying to claim 27pts for 4 st6 shots on a bs4, 3+ t4 model with 4+ jink, 12" move and 18" (or 24"?) Turbo boost base with access to OS is absolutely insanely deluded or has absolutely no concept of balance or fairness in the game.
This. It boggles the mind that GW is putting that out. It boggles it even further that there are STILL people trying to defend it.
"It's ok guys, just play to the objectives and you'll beat the army of obsec models that can zip anywhere on the board in one turn, and can table your force from outside your effective range in half a game!"
I'm probably going to call ahead to tournies and ask if they're allowing eldar. If they say yes, I'll wish them luck with their eldar+ a few scrubs tourney and move on.
Bharring wrote: Not a huge help, but they do *not* fully ignore terrain. If they spam bikes, they should lose some of them to dangerous terrai . (1/18 checks)
Yep, if they are silly enough (or run out of room) to avoid it. 40 jetbikes should help in that regard.
Oh and if the formation doesn't give Skilled Rider.
Poly Ranger wrote: No - being serious. Name me a unit with that damage output, that maneuverability, that range, that durability (factor range in) and scoring (or OS in 7th) for 270pts in the history of the game. Hell just name me a unit for 135pts with half the durability and firepower.
A 5-man unit of eldar jetbikes all upgraded to the heavy weapon of your preference, obviously. Man, I thought you were gonna ask a difficult question.
Bharring wrote: Not a huge help, but they do *not* fully ignore terrain. If they spam bikes, they should lose some of them to dangerous terrai . (1/18 checks)
Yep, if they are silly enough (or run out of room) to avoid it. 40 jetbikes should help in that regard.
Oh and if the formation doesn't give Skilled Rider.
I don't think anyone is outright defending it. Some are saying they'd enjoy the challenge. Others are saying they want to wait and see the full codex first. Still others aren't entirely convinced that it'll be such a problem.
While there are certainly counterpoints to those views, those views aren't defending it.
Blacksails wrote: The more I think about this, the more my brain hurts.
This isn't ordinary stupidity.
This is advanced stupidity.
And you can own these amazing rules for the low price of ~$60!
No, you don't understand. This is GW trying to make the game match the lore! Watch as the heaviest battle tanks fall from a death of a thousand cuts! Its cinematic! Its just the thing for casual gamers!
pretre wrote: And we're forgetting assault phase moves. Good luck getting to them.
The only good part is that 40 jetbikes take up a lot of real estate so they can only hide so much.
Which is why I am very seriously considering getting a Deathstrike Launcher. Or two.
If I'm going to lose an absurd amount of units, I'll be damned if I won't swamp you with obscene missile launches!
Problem is that you can't keep it alive that long. It can't fire turn one and by turn 2 it is dead. They are chimera hulls, right?
They are, but you can get a pretty nice cover save going on them.
Camo Netting for a 6+ Cover save, even out in the open.
Bullgryn Bubblewrap in front of them for +1 to their Cover save(or +2 if you do the Rampart Detachment from Sanctus Reach)
Smoke Launchers if necessary for turn 2 or 3.
Also, stop bringing your math into my hopefulness!
pretre wrote: Yeah, no chimera hull would survive turn 1.
are we sure?
What if we had a wall of chimera's backed up by some indirect fire. Scatter lasers will need 6s to glance AV12, so they wont chew through them that fast. If they do wreck them, then wrecks stay in place and block LOS. 160 shots will do 17 hullpoints, 9 if there is an ageis defence line. That's a lot but not impossible to overcome.
Obviously wraithknights with long ranged destroyer weapons.... they could cut a whole.
I dont think it's a counter, I dont think it would even win. It might just last a turn longer than mosts armies.
It actually does make sense to have things like this and the Decurion if you're trying to make a system where you tell linked stories on a table with painted minis.
If you are going to do that though the main rules should be a lot closer to RPG rulebook/sourcebooks though. It seems really stupid to me to have a competitive (The rulebook only details how things fight and who is the winner at the end) wargame be the framework for your system clearly made to be used narratively.
pretre wrote: Yeah, no chimera hull would survive turn 1.
are we sure?
What if we had a wall of chimera's backed up by some indirect fire. Scatter lasers will need 6s to glance AV12, so they wont chew through them that fast. If they do wreck them, then wrecks stay in place and block LOS. 160 shots will do 17 hullpoints, 9 if there is an ageis defence line. That's a lot but not impossible to overcome.
Obviously wraithknights with long ranged destroyer weapons.... they could cut a whole.
I dont think it's a counter, I dont think it would even win. It might just last a turn longer than mosts armies.
I thought of that. AV12 isn't likely though since AV10 is easy to get with a 12" 36" platform.
You are really limited at how many units the Eldar dude brought.
Eldarain wrote: It seems really stupid to me to have a competitive (The rulebook only details how things fight and who is the winner at the end) wargame be the framework for your system clearly made to be used narratively.
How is it clear the game is made to be used narratively?
An RPG is a narrative game; there is no winner. Its entirely cooperative.
A wargame, by its definition, is competitive in that one party will win by achieving some goal.
40k is a wargame. It has points so that players can theoretically build armies that are on the same playing field, and they have competing objectives in order to determine a winner.
That is distinctly not a narrative game or RPG, and quite obviously a wargame.
The shocking genius behind GW is that they managed to get some people to buy into the 'Forge the Narrative' bs as an excuse for poor rules.
Eldarain wrote: It seems really stupid to me to have a competitive (The rulebook only details how things fight and who is the winner at the end) wargame be the framework for your system clearly made to be used narratively.
How is it clear the game is made to be used narratively?
An RPG is a narrative game; there is no winner. Its entirely cooperative.
A wargame, by its definition, is competitive in that one party will win by achieving some goal.
40k is a wargame. It has points so that players can theoretically build armies that are on the same playing field, and they have competing objectives in order to determine a winner.
That is distinctly not a narrative game or RPG, and quite obviously a wargame.
The shocking genius behind GW is that they managed to get some people to buy into the 'Forge the Narrative' bs as an excuse for poor rules.
Exactly - this narrative bogus is about equivalent to "this is a game - have fun!"
Exalted good sir.
