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Thairne wrote: A 6 to wound = instand death isn't as broken as S: D though. Instant death doesn't affect vehicles. It could also be "countered" with Eternal Warrior. The moment your IK/Stompa/Blaneblade/whathaveyou gets shot with S: D and blows up first turn by a single shot.. ID cannot deal THAT kind of damage. That was one of the few advantages vehicles had vs MC's.
Yeah that's why I made my second comment that it depends how they price it and how the other stats of the weapons change. If it's expensive and you're not getting many shots, then the 1/36 chance that you get lucky and fry the IK/Stompa/Baneblade may not be worth it in a competitive setting.
I'm assuming Wraithknights are going to get very expensive becoming Gargantuan Creatures to match the likes of the IK, no idea what's going to happen to the Wraithguard, but they could easily price themselves out of being competitive.
All I'm saying it maybe wait another week and see what the next batch of rumours bring
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/15 14:37:39
Wraithguard as Troops doesn't even matter with the decurion style option. Just take the jetbike formation (since it's the cheapest and alsmot certainly the best unless everything else in the codex is buffed into the stratosphere) and then spam wraith host or wraith construct formations as points allow.
Or just take a farseer, 2 min jetbikes and then take 3 wraithguard as elites and wraithlord/knight as heavy.
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.
It's a bit unbalancing in that it can potentially do a lot of damage, but lets not forget the rule is currently a 6 to wound = instant death regardless of toughness, which is actually more powerful against T6+ stuff than being Destroyer on a 6 to wound.
It also depends how they price it and how the other stats for the distort weapons change. If the number of shots per point is very low they aren't going to be very competitive, hoping for the 1 in 36 chance that it does something epic to something expensive on your opponent's army is not really conducive to a good competitive army (it just pisses people off when your baneblade cops an unlucky roll).
While I agree GW aren't to be trusted, it's a bit early to call the sky is falling (at least on the distort stuff, the bikes are bad enough ).
It's not going to gain the D trait on a 6 to wound. That would mean you are wounding a model twice. Roll to hit, then roll to wound. Roll a 6 to wound? Well, now you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table, where if you roll a 1, nothing happens. 2-5, bad stuff, 6 really bad stuff.
Remember, D weapons don't roll to wound. If they hit, you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table.
GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.
Tesla/Taser stuff gets two extra hits on a 6, and the Harlequins Caress is auto wound at AP2 on a 6 to hit. That's about it though.
Totally agree, it won't be str d on a 6, that is just too absurd
Tamwulf wrote: GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.
One of the harlequin weapons gets rending on a 6 to hit.
Peregrine wrote: What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
Which I'm sure we can all agree, is still absurd.
It's a bit unbalancing in that it can potentially do a lot of damage, but lets not forget the rule is currently a 6 to wound = instant death regardless of toughness, which is actually more powerful against T6+ stuff than being Destroyer on a 6 to wound.
It also depends how they price it and how the other stats for the distort weapons change. If the number of shots per point is very low they aren't going to be very competitive, hoping for the 1 in 36 chance that it does something epic to something expensive on your opponent's army is not really conducive to a good competitive army (it just pisses people off when your baneblade cops an unlucky roll).
While I agree GW aren't to be trusted, it's a bit early to call the sky is falling (at least on the distort stuff, the bikes are bad enough ).
It's not going to gain the D trait on a 6 to wound. That would mean you are wounding a model twice. Roll to hit, then roll to wound. Roll a 6 to wound? Well, now you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table, where if you roll a 1, nothing happens. 2-5, bad stuff, 6 really bad stuff.
Remember, D weapons don't roll to wound. If they hit, you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table.
GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.
Tesla/Taser stuff gets two extra hits on a 6, and the Harlequins Caress is auto wound at AP2 on a 6 to hit. That's about it though.
Totally agree, it won't be str d on a 6, that is just too absurd
Maybe they get a special weapon, one per squad, that has S: D? You can bet your hobby knife I will pour every shot into them to take that out of the game asap.
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Commenting because I had suggested that Bolters should get Shred in the Proposed Rules a month or so back, and it's funny to see that argument coming up again as Eldar become a new Laser Light Show.
MagicJuggler wrote: Commenting because I had suggested that Bolters should get Shred in the Proposed Rules a month or so back, and it's funny to see that argument coming up again as Eldar become a new Laser Light Show.
Trust me! Once these jetbikes come out - these snobs will still say bolters are fine - cause they kill gardsmen pretty good at point blank range.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
It's not going to gain the D trait on a 6 to wound. That would mean you are wounding a model twice. Roll to hit, then roll to wound. Roll a 6 to wound? Well, now you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table, where if you roll a 1, nothing happens. 2-5, bad stuff, 6 really bad stuff.
Remember, D weapons don't roll to wound. If they hit, you roll on the Destroyer Weapon table.
GW has moved away from "On a 6 to hit, you gain this" and moved to a "doesn't matter what you rolled to hit. What did you roll to wound?" system. I can't find any weapons right now that give special benefits on a 'to hit' roll. They are all on 'to wound' rolls.
The brand new Skitarii codex has one.
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Making the Hemlock's Heavy D-Scythe Torrent instead of small blast.
On another note, a 2-3 Land Raider list (Black Templar) could probably annoy the crap out of the jetbikes.
Theres always the option to ignore the LR because you are faster than it. Outside of that - destroying it with a WK would be absurdy easy. Theres also bright lances, prisim cannons, d cannons, fire dragons...come on man LR is just bad - we wish it was good but it's bad.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
nosferatu1001 wrote: Additionally there is no g'tee that the wraith guard will stay troops - or can be taken as troops - given as 7th has done away with force org swapping armies.
Does it really matter if they can be taken as troops or not? Unbound is a thing, and if the Wraithguard have ranged D-weapons, then it would take one heck of a Formation Rule for me NOT to take them in every game.
It would be a HUGE bump to make Wraithknights into Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures. It would make them even BETTER then they are now. You would NEVER be able to one shot a Wraithknight, and Sniper weapons- which are the most effective way to deal with a WK now- are pretty much useless against a GMC WK. The WK would gain Feel no Pain! Think about that! Right now, a WK can only get a 5+ Invulnerable for a sizable chunk chunk of points and a not so good weapons load out. Now, I would never have to take a scattershield. The WK would gain STOMP! Say good bye to anything in close combat with the WK. No tar pitting! Finally, a WK would be able to shoot ALL it's weapons every turn at different targets. No, there is no way the WK will become a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature- it'll be too good. Even at 500 points, you would still want to take one. Making it a Lord of War choice? GW has been backing WAY off Lords of War choices, and reserving that for character models. Heck, let's make the WK a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature, Lord of War, Character so I can make it my armies Warlord. Have fun against that!
I can see an army of 20 Jet Bikes, a couple Warlocks/Farseer on Jetbikes, 2-3 Wave Serpents with Wraithguard, and a couple Wraithknights. That will probably be the army to beat.
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MagicJuggler wrote: Commenting because I had suggested that Bolters should get Shred in the Proposed Rules a month or so back, and it's funny to see that argument coming up again as Eldar become a new Laser Light Show.
Man, that would make my Sisters absolutely ridiculous.
There needs to be something that isn't quite as overboard as shred and that doesn't quite benefit hordes as much as it does the more expensive tac marines that usually carry bolters.
RunicFIN wrote: Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.
Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.
As a Necron?
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
Of course, none of these are "hard" counters. Vehicles would still have to contend with Fire Dragons, for example. We'd have to fiddle with the list to take into account DE or Harlequin allies. But, overall, I don't think it's impossible to have an army that does just fine against Scatter Laser bikes.
The issue here is not just the insane number of shots and the price, it is also the jetbikes themselves.
Using the range of the scatter laser with the 2d6 move, jetbikes are going to be just as hard to combat as before, but now will be cutting down entire units a turn as well.
it would take one heck of a Formation Rule for me NOT to take them in every game.
Totally agree. There is no way that formations would balance this.
Making the Hemlock's Heavy D-Scythe Torrent instead of small blast.
On another note, a 2-3 Land Raider list (Black Templar) could probably annoy the crap out of the jetbikes.
Too bad if the farseer(s) roll div and get misfortune.
Or if they remember to bring some wraith-units (any flavour) and wreck your day with Str 10/Str S AP2 weapons.
I do this already with WG. They are exceedingly undervalued already. I run a 5 man WG with cannons and a 5 man with scythes and they do serious work.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
RunicFIN wrote: Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.
Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.
As a Necron?
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
Of course, none of these are "hard" counters. Vehicles would still have to contend with Fire Dragons, for example. We'd have to fiddle with the list to take into account DE or Harlequin allies. But, overall, I don't think it's impossible to have an army that does just fine against Scatter Laser bikes.
That said, I do hope it's a typo.
For 2, are Jetbikes not faster than Flyrants?
Also, I mean you kind of mentioned it, but this example (160 S6 shots in 1080 points) still leaves a lot of points for things like anti tank. It's less than half your points in a 2500 points match. And if Wraith stuff all has sD weapons, that can deal with stuff S6 might struggle with.
You know, I don't understand why Phil Kelly doesn't have the same reputation that Matt Ward does. He's much more blatant about his favoritism than Ward was.
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RunicFIN wrote: Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.
Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.
As a Necron?
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
Of course, none of these are "hard" counters. Vehicles would still have to contend with Fire Dragons, for example. We'd have to fiddle with the list to take into account DE or Harlequin allies. But, overall, I don't think it's impossible to have an army that does just fine against Scatter Laser bikes.
That said, I do hope it's a typo.
For 2, are Jetbikes not faster than Flyrants?
Also, I mean you kind of mentioned it, but this example (160 S6 shots in 1080 points) still leaves a lot of points for things like anti tank. It's less than half your points in a 2500 points match. And if Wraith stuff all has sD weapons, that can deal with stuff S6 might struggle with.
First of all, who the heck plays at 2500? gaks cray
Jetbikes are faster overall, but it's not quite the same. Flyrants move 24" per turn while still being able to shoot, so there's nothing stopping them from getting behind vehicles to get to that AV11 in the rear on turn 2, you just can't stop it. Jetbikes can't reliably get to a rear arc the same way. They'd have to be right in front of the vehicle and then move 12" over it, and I don't know any player who would just set themselves up for that sort of turn. If they Turbo Boost turn 1 behind them, the vehicles will just, you know, turn around, or jump to a new position with their own 12" movement.
Tamwulf wrote: I would think a 50/50 mix of scatter lasers and shuriken cannons would be the way to go. Bladestorm on a 6 is pretty nice when you are pumping out 60 shots, and you will still have 80 scatter laser shots...
The ranges are a bit skewed (36" vs. 24"), but they are Jetbikes. It's not like they won't be in range by the end of turn 1 anyways, and they can always just scoot away in the assault phase.
I have a fifty fifty mix for you. Half pity you will never get a game, and half astonishment you would think any opponent would enjoy that game.
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
Tamwulf wrote: I would think a 50/50 mix of scatter lasers and shuriken cannons would be the way to go. Bladestorm on a 6 is pretty nice when you are pumping out 60 shots, and you will still have 80 scatter laser shots...
The ranges are a bit skewed (36" vs. 24"), but they are Jetbikes. It's not like they won't be in range by the end of turn 1 anyways, and they can always just scoot away in the assault phase.
I have a fifty fifty mix for you. Half pity you will never get a game, and half astonishment you would think any opponent would enjoy that game.
Oh, you're as silly as Gee-Dub if you think this game is about having fun!
It's about endless hours of repetitive painting that you hate so that you can field your brilliant fully painted army two editions too late, having to proxy half the equipment against a guy with a grey horde of whatever army is the flavour of the month laughing as he abuses the latest un-thought out codex's broken units which he will drop in a month when the new Tau codex comes out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/15 15:36:25
RunicFIN wrote: Anyway, a jetbike horde isn't going to dominate anything. There's so many counters to it off the top of my head that it doesn't worry me one bit.
Well, bring it on.
Give me three good counters to them.
As a Necron?
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
Of course, none of these are "hard" counters. Vehicles would still have to contend with Fire Dragons, for example. We'd have to fiddle with the list to take into account DE or Harlequin allies. But, overall, I don't think it's impossible to have an army that does just fine against Scatter Laser bikes.
That said, I do hope it's a typo.
For 2, are Jetbikes not faster than Flyrants?
Also, I mean you kind of mentioned it, but this example (160 S6 shots in 1080 points) still leaves a lot of points for things like anti tank. It's less than half your points in a 2500 points match. And if Wraith stuff all has sD weapons, that can deal with stuff S6 might struggle with.
First of all, who the heck plays at 2500? gaks cray
Jetbikes are faster overall, but it's not quite the same. Flyrants move 24" per turn while still being able to shoot, so there's nothing stopping them from getting behind vehicles to get to that AV11 in the rear on turn 2, you just can't stop it. Jetbikes can't reliably get to a rear arc the same way. They'd have to be right in front of the vehicle and then move 12" over it, and I don't know any player who would just set themselves up for that sort of turn. If they Turbo Boost turn 1 behind them, the vehicles will just, you know, turn around, or jump to a new position with their own 12" movement.
2500 is great - 1850 is the tournament build right now - used to be 1500 but 2500 id say is the most next fun point value esp for TAC lists.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
1) Orikanstar with a 2+ character out front. 160 BS3 S6 AP6 shots doesn't do a single wound to a 2+ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Any Rending wounds (from Psychic Powers or Shuriken) he Looks Out! onto the Lychguard who are 3++ rerolling 1s/4+++ rerolling 1s. Sure, they can never catch the Jetbikes, but who cares when they never die and can deny area control?
You have a 2+ character out front? That's cute when facing high mobility opponents. They just come from a different angle and kill everything but the 2+. Also, math is hard, but: 2+ rerollable is 1/36 failed wounds. With a 4+ RP, that makes 1/72. Orikan takes wounds.
2) AV13 vehicles. Bring as much S6 as you want, unlike Flyrants Jetbikes take a few turns to get to the rear armor. Spam up on Warriors in Arks and enjoy.
Except for Misfortune, Lances, etc.
3) Warrior blobs. 4+/4+++, possibly rerolling 1s. 13 ppm so it doesn't matter if some die, and Ghost Arks can bring them back.
Can't bring them back if they are all dead. 4+/4+ is what? 1/4 dead. 160 shots/120 Hit/100 Wound. Dead unit.
4) Mass Flayed Ones. Like Orikanstar, they might never reach, but thanks to Infiltrate they're going to start fairly close to the bikes. If they die, who cares? They're cheap. They're going to keep the Bikes running backwards, or the bikes will forego their shooting to Turbo Boost over them. Either way is a win in my book.
You care, since they evaporate those flayed ones.
5) Obelisk. AV14 is even better than AV13, and Gravity Pulse means they can't come anywhere near thanks to Dangerous Terrain Gravity Pulse.
Good thing there isn't a rest of the eldar army. Also, good luck getting objectives and hope the other 800 points of their army didn't bring lances or D.
6) Conclave of the Burning One. 8 wounds at T8, with Deep Strike, 1 turn Invisibility, upgrades for Invuln or 2+ armor, or any other myriad of choices. C'Tan Powers are actually specifically pretty good against Bikes, with only the two single shot Powers being a bit wasted.
8 Wounds at T8. Hmm.
160 Shots. BS4, so 120 hit. 20 Wounds. What's his save again? Oh yeah, he's dead. Even with Invis for one turn or 2+ for one turn, they just kill the rest of your army and wait for you to run out of tricks.
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actually defending something as ludicrous as a scatter laser on every jet bike has a clear case of - wanting to play eldar with a scatter laser on every jet bike.
how about this - every space marine bike gets and assault cannon? It's literally the same level of idiocy.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I reckon it's most likely that a 6 to wound makes them Destroyer, the same way at the moment a 6 to wound is instant death/auto penetrate.
I could have gone in a slightly different direction with that joke, but I figure this board is PG.
but not in a fluff way. The net effect of a 6 on a Distortion cannon is about as bad an effect of any weapon in 40K (again, fluffwise). I just don't see how wraithscythes fit inot this equation...pretty silly really. and the downside is that they just gave another reason to never take the wraithblade option which just plain sucks.
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