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Post by: Traditio
I've read the sentiment, a couple of times now, that wraithguard are OP. I further read the sentiment today that, even were it not for the ridiculously underpriced wraithknight and the scatter bike shenanigans, that the Eldar codex is filled to the brim with OP grade A cheddar.
I've read arguments for wraithguard being OP, but I thought it fitting to make a thread specifically devoted to this question.
Are wraithguard OP?
Let's briefly examine what the model can do.
It's a 32 ppm model with T6 and a 3+ armor save. Its standard gun fires a single strength D shot at 12 inch range. It can elect to use D flamers for an additional 50 points per unit. It can elect to take a wave serpent as a dedicated transport.
I understand the general reason that people don't like this model. It's a model which has strength D at roughly terminator prices.
In practice, however, how much damage do these things actually do?
I am just going to throw this fact out there: in a relatively recent game, I vaporized 2 or 3 (I think it was 3) with a single plasma cannon blast.
Aside from wraithguard, what other units in the Eldar codex do you think (aside from wraithknights and scatter bikes) are OP and why?
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Post by: Peregrine
Yes, of course they're overpowered. D-weapons do not belong on non-LoW units, especially non-LoW infantry that can be spammed in large numbers. Compare a 32-point wraithguard model to a 24-point tactical marine with a melta gun and the problem is obvious.
(This should of course be the end of the debate, given your previous statement that marines are the benchmark by which all other things must be measured.)
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Wraithguard are not as bad as everyone says due to lack of invul and mass ap3 weapons. Add in the fact they have one wound a piece and as you stated, cost a decent amount, they are actually one of the more balanced units in the codex. Scatbikes and wraithknights are not shenanigans as you stated. They are units you can simply take by paying their given points cost. While I enjoy that this tread is simply somewhat to discuss thoughts, some of your sentencing is simply leading it to be a discussion of people QQ'ing of how eldar hurt their feelings cause they couldn't beat msu of scatbikes wraithknights and wraithguard with d Flamers being strategically deep struck by an archon with webway portal to kill any unit I want cause I landed an inch away and vaporized your expensive smash fether and his bike squad.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
If you vaporized three with a Plasma Cannon, your opponent sucks at spacing.
Also, they have excellent damage output. Compare them to any Sternguard veteran with a Combi-Melta.
Regarding the D-Scythe, while it has a MUCH shorter range, it vaporizes anything it touches. S4 being used for ID literally matters 0% of the time when you're inflicting multiple wounds anyway.
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Post by: Swampmist
Also, the ability to ally-in a DE Archon With Webway Portal and a Raider for precision DS and an open-topped transport from which to fire from helps their ability to actually get in and use their D-flamers a ton.
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Post by: Traditio
Peregrine wrote:Yes, of course they're overpowered. D-weapons do not belong on non- LoW units, especially non- LoW infantry that can be spammed in large numbers. Compare a 32-point wraithguard model to a 24-point tactical marine with a melta gun and the problem is obvious.
(This should of course be the end of the debate, given your previous statement that marines are the benchmark by which all other things must be measured.)
I think that's a difficult comparison to make. A sternguard veteran has an effective threat range of 36 inches. I think the reason I am having difficulty seeing wraithguard as OP is because of their extremely short range. You can put them in a (relatively expensive) wave serpent and disembark them, and they'll vaporize whatever they hit. But then there's a good chance that the wraithguard unit (in all likelihood, a 210 unit) is going to get shot up on the following turn.
How much damage does a wraithguard unit actually do, in practice, in the course of a game?
I will, of course, agree with the comparison to this extent, though.
A sternguard veteran firing hellfire rounds will kill, on average, a wraithguard on one shot out of every...(2/3 X 5/6 X 1/3 (10/48))...
five? One in five hellfire rounds kills a wraithguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
They were not very well spaced out.
Also, they have excellent damage output
In principle, this is true.
In practice?
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Post by: Swampmist
They don't need to do a ton, and again precision DS inside of an open-topped skimmer helps them a ton. They only need to kill one thing to make their points back, as generally that thing is something the army would otherwise have trouble with (SmashFether, SHV/GCs, LR squadrons, ect.) And they are VERY good at that.
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Post by: CrownAxe
Good players don't simply walk Wraithguard across the board. They support it with other units such as transporting it in a Wave Serpant or No-Scatter Deep Striking them with an allied Webway Portal
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Post by: Traditio
I'm going to assume the following:
For a given model to be undercosted, at least one of the two must be the case:
1. The unit regularly can be expected to kill models which have, for their collective points costs total, a greater value than that unit.
2. The value of the models which regularly can be expected to kill that unit, which are traditionally suited to killing that unit, exceeds the value, in terms of collective points costs, of that unit.
Do either of these hold true for a wraithguard?
A single krak missile vaporizes a wraithguard with a d-scythe.
A single plasma cannon shot can kill as many as are bunched together. Automatically Appended Next Post: Let me be clear, I do think that wraithguard should cost more points (though not a whole lot more). I just don't see it as being a particularly major offender in terms of OPness.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Notice OP is ignoring everyone whom is bringing up no scatter deep strike kill anything you want.
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Post by: Traditio
Pain4Pleasure wrote:Notice OP is ignoring everyone whom is bringing up no scatter deep strike kill anything you want.
That's not really useful for evaluating whether wraithguard are OP, considered in and of themselves.
Because then it's not wraithguard. It's wraithguard + force multiplier. Automatically Appended Next Post: Back to the OP:
Does anyone have any major complaints about other units in the Eldar codex aside from wraithguard, wraithknights,scatterbikes and warp spiders?
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Post by: CrownAxe
Traditio wrote:Pain4Pleasure wrote:Notice OP is ignoring everyone whom is bringing up no scatter deep strike kill anything you want.
That's not really useful for evaluating whether wraithguard are OP, considered in and of themselves.
Because then it's not wraithguard. It's wraithguard + force multiplier.
Thats not how the game works though. Combos are what makes bad units good and good units broken. Ignoring combinations gives a very limited view on how the the game works.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
You didn't have to go back to the original post when we were still talking about the original post. Doesn't make sense and is senseless and dumb. No, none. Eldar are fine. Learn to play and beat what they have or go color in another book
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Post by: Traditio
CrownAxe wrote:Thats not how the game works though. Combos are what makes bad units good and good units broken. Ignoring combinations gives a very limited view on how the the game works.
I generally agree. I fully admit this point.
However, the claim in question is that wraithguard are OP.
They well might be OP when used in conjunction with webway portal.
But at that point, that raises the question:
Are wraithguard OP?
Or are psychic shenanigans OP?
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Post by: Swampmist
Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high-ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.
Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Wait... A webway portal.. Which is an item that can be taken... And a unit with a gun... Is considered psychic shenanigans? I've been playing the game wrong this whole time..
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Post by: Traditio
Pain4Pleasure wrote:Wait... A webway portal.. Which is an item that can be taken... And a unit with a gun... Is considered psychic shenanigans? I've been playing the game wrong this whole time..
I was under the impression that webway portal is a psychic power.
I've just done my research.
Webway portal is a dark eldar thing.
At any rate, I answer in the same way:
Is it wraithguard that are OP?
Or is it the ability to take allies?
Or is the webway portal upgrade itself OP?
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Traditio wrote:Pain4Pleasure wrote:Wait... A webway portal.. Which is an item that can be taken... And a unit with a gun... Is considered psychic shenanigans? I've been playing the game wrong this whole time..
I was under the impression that webway portal is a psychic power.
I've just done my research.
Webway portal is a dark eldar thing.
At any rate, I answer in the same way:
Is it wraithguard that are OP?
Or is it the ability to take allies?
Or is the webway portal upgrade itself OP?
Allies, as stated above, make everything better period. This includes your beloved marine plebs. It's the way the cookie crumbles. Wraithguard are not OP. D is scary and because they have D people auto consider OP.
Webway isn't OP, because if it is just pure dark eldar then it's one of the few things they have to assist them in their glass codex
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Post by: Traditio
Swampmist wrote:Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high- ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.
Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.
My eldar playing friend is considering getting some swooping hawks (possibly for specifically playing against me, since he's basically agreed not to use his wraithknight(s) and scatter bikes).
I've read the entry in his codex.
They sound like fun. Swoop in. Bomb. Swoop out. It sounds spectacular (in the etymological sense of the term) without necessarily being game-breaking.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
Traditio wrote: Swampmist wrote:Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high- ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.
Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.
My eldar playing friend is considering getting some swooping hawks (possibly for specifically playing against me, since he's basically agreed not to use his wraithknight(s) and scatter bikes).
I've read the entry in his codex.
They sound like fun. Swoop in. Bomb. Swoop out. It sounds spectacular (in the etymological sense of the term) without necessarily being game-breaking.
You will find if you read more into it that the only game breaking things are the scatterbikes and knights. The rest are just a solid codex, and now with mureenz huge buff with that suppliment and cards, tau, crons, eldar and SM flavours are all nipping at top spot for strongest army, eldar only win that right now because of scatbikes and knight.
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Post by: Traditio
cosmicsoybean wrote:You will find if you read more into it that the only game breaking things are the scatterbikes and knights. The rest are just a solid codex, and now with mureenz huge buff with that suppliment and cards, tau, crons, eldar and SM flavours are all nipping at top spot for strongest army, eldar only win that right now because of scatbikes and knight.
That is my general opinion. Personally, I think that Eldritch storm could be nerfed a bit (large blast instead of apocalyptic blast), there could be some other minor nerfs, and there should be points cost adjustments.
But overall, I think that the codex is mostly OK except for those units.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Scatbikes are a good cost model. Heck I honestly cringe at having to pay 27 points for an ap6 gun. Str.6 is good, but can't we make it ap3 for that 27 points? Sheesh
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Post by: Traditio
Pain4Pleasure wrote:Scatbikes are a good cost model. Heck I honestly cringe at having to pay 27 points for an ap6 gun. Str.6 is good, but can't we make it ap3 for that 27 points? Sheesh
Hey.
Why don't you play chaos space marines (whether on bikes or not), play against an eldar player using scatter bikes, and then get back to me.
Better yet.
Play Orks and get back to me.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
Traditio wrote:cosmicsoybean wrote:You will find if you read more into it that the only game breaking things are the scatterbikes and knights. The rest are just a solid codex, and now with mureenz huge buff with that suppliment and cards, tau, crons, eldar and SM flavours are all nipping at top spot for strongest army, eldar only win that right now because of scatbikes and knight.
That is my general opinion. Personally, I think that Eldritch storm could be nerfed a bit (large blast instead of apocalyptic blast), there could be some other minor nerfs, and there should be points cost adjustments.
But overall, I think that the codex is mostly OK except for those units.
Also true. My friend played vs my eldar after I broke them out for the first time since the new codex (Hey, I wanna use my shiny bone limited codex!) and ploped an eldritch storm apoc blast on him on my T2 and wiped out almost his entire army. fleshbane, armourbane and ap (2-3) is too good for WC3 and apoc sized.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Traditio wrote:Pain4Pleasure wrote:Scatbikes are a good cost model. Heck I honestly cringe at having to pay 27 points for an ap6 gun. Str.6 is good, but can't we make it ap3 for that 27 points? Sheesh
Hey.
Why don't you play chaos space marines (whether on bikes or not), play against an eldar player using scatter bikes, and then get back to me.
Better yet.
Play Orks and get back to me. 
Prior to being mechanicus, then now eldar factions, I had 23,000 points in orks. Get back to me when you know more about sarcasm.
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Post by: Traditio
cosmicsoybean wrote:Also true. My friend played vs my eldar after I broke them out for the first time since the new codex (Hey, I wanna use my shiny bone limited codex!) and ploped an eldritch storm apoc blast on him on my T2 and wiped out almost his entire army. fleshbane, armourbane and ap (2-3) is too good for WC3 and apoc sized.
Plus haywire. Don't forget haywire. For the lulz.
On the other hand, it's 24 inch range. So that's a thing.
At any rate, the original context of this thread is another thread on which codices could be fixed with minor revisions, and which need major overhaul.
I expressed the opinion that Eldar fall into the category of "easily fixable with minor revisions."
I was then answered that the codex is full of grade A cheddar.
I just don't see it.
It's a generally good codex, but very few things in it are game breaking. Automatically Appended Next Post: Pain4Pleasure wrote:Prior to being mechanicus, then now eldar factions, I had 23,000 points in orks. Get back to me when you know more about sarcasm.
Oh.
I'm terribly sorry...I thought you were serious.
I find that a good way of expressing sarcasm on the internet is to write "[/sarcasm]" at the end of the thing that you're saying sarcastically.
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Post by: Peregrine
Traditio wrote:I think that's a difficult comparison to make. A sternguard veteran has an effective threat range of 36 inches.
What? Did you read the post you just replied to? I was comparing them to a MEQ with a melta gun, not sternguard. A melta marine has the same anti-tank role (with a side of killing elite infantry) as wraithguard and the same 12" maximum range. Except the melta marine has a shorter threat range, since it has to get within 6" to fire at full effectiveness while the wraithguard's D-weapon does not drop in effectiveness above half range.
They were not very well spaced out.
Therefore negating any conclusions you can draw from the event. Your opponent's failure to do anything to mitigate the effect of blast weapons does not make their units weak, it makes the player bad at 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traditio wrote:I'm going to assume the following:
For a given model to be undercosted, at least one of the two must be the case:
1. The unit regularly can be expected to kill models which have, for their collective points costs total, a greater value than that unit.
2. The value of the models which regularly can be expected to kill that unit, which are traditionally suited to killing that unit, exceeds the value, in terms of collective points costs, of that unit.
And, as I've already pointed out in your other thread, this is a bad approach to balance questions:
#1 is bad because many units can and should kill more than their point value, because they are single-role specialists. A 100-point anti-tank specialist should be able to kill significantly more than 100 points worth of tanks because that's the only thing it can do effectively.
#2 is bad because there's a lot more to 40k than lining up units and rolling dice until one side is dead. And it's especially bad when you limit the test unit to the short list of things that you personally are willing to play in your army and reject comparisons with more efficient killers with some form of "I shouldn't have to use that".
A better way to tell whether a unit is overpowered is to compare it to a unit with a similar role, in this case melta MEQs. The wraithguard cost 33% more per model, but gain massive advantages in pretty much every area. In any role where you could use the melta marines you're almost certainly better off taking wraithguard instead.
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Post by: Traditio
Peregrine wrote:
What? Did you read the post you just replied to? I was comparing them to a MEQ with a melta gun, not sternguard. A melta marine has the same anti-tank role (with a side of killing elite infantry) as wraithguard and the same 12" weapon. Except the melta marine has a shorter threat range, since it has to get within 6" to fire at full effectiveness while the wraithguard's D-weapon does not drop in effectiveness above half range.
Yeah, I completely misread what you said. Somehow, I mentally replaced "tactical marine with meltagun" with "sternguard veteran with combimelta."
I wish to make the following points:
1. 24 =/= 32. 24 =/= 37. 24 =/= 42.
So right off the bat, your comparison starts off with an inequality between the things being compared.
2. It's not clear to me that wraithguard are specifically antitank. They seem pretty short-range and slow to be particularly effective at that, in and of themselves. Plus, flamers are generally anti-infantry.
3. There's a difference in delivery systems. You can stick that meltagun marine in a rhino (and shoot out of the top hatch). You only can stick the wraithguard in a waveserpent (which does not have firing points).
I don't know. Just how fair is the comparison?
I think that the better, more accurate consideration is this:
Does it take much more than 210 points of, say, sternguard veterans regularly to take out wraithguard?
Do wraithguard usually kill more than 210 points worth of models?
Therefore negating any conclusions you can draw from the event. Your opponent's failure to do anything to mitigate the effect of blast weapons does not make their units weak, it makes the player bad at 40k.
Let's say I only killed 1. So what? The loss of a single model represents the loss of 42 points worth of a model to my 29 point tactical marine. At range.
Edit:
Note, of course, that none of this rules out the notion that wraithguard should cost more points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote:#1 is bad because many units can and should kill more than their point value, because they are single-role specialists. A 100-point anti-tank specialist should be able to kill significantly more than 100 points worth of tanks because that's the only thing it can do effectively.
I grant the point in abstracto (in general; apart from any concrete conditions). I deny the point in concreto (in all actuality; in the particular cases).
Presupposing perfect balance and equivalent player skill, the rock should be able to beat its points cost in scissors before paper covers rock.
#2 is bad because there's a lot more to 40k than lining up units and rolling dice until one side is dead.
I grant the point. Note that I haven't made any mention of math-hammer with respect to wraithguard.
A better way to tell whether a unit is overpowered is to compare it to a unit with a similar role, in this case melta MEQs.
I am dubious about this comparison.
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Post by: Peregrine
Traditio wrote:So right off the bat, your comparison starts off with an inequality between the things being compared.
Yes, which I clearly stated. The wraithguard pay 33% more points per model for:
* +2 toughness (usually resulting in more than a 33% increase in durability)
* better chance to get penetrating hits
* vastly better damage when they do get penetrating hits
* no reduction in effectiveness above 12"
* no bolter marine tax required, every model in the squad has an anti-tank weapon
This is way more than a 33% improvement in power, so the wraithguard is overpowered relative to the melta marine.
2. It's not clear to me that wraithguard are specifically antitank. They seem pretty short-range and slow to be particularly effective at that, in and of themselves. Plus, flamers are generally anti-infantry.
Wraithguard are no slower than marines with melta guns, which is what I'm comparing them to. Both are infantry units, both have conventional transports, and both have various "faster" transports (deep strike, etc). And flamers generally being anti-infantry is irrelevant when wraithguard don't have flamers by default, and their flamers are D-weapons instead of STR 4 AP 5.
I think that the better, more accurate consideration is this:
Does it take much more than 210 points of, say, sternguard veterans regularly to take out wraithguard?
Do wraithguard usually kill more than 210 points worth of models?
See above for where I've explained why this method of evaluating balance is fundamentally broken. I'm really getting tired of repeating the same explanation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traditio wrote:Presupposing perfect balance and equivalent player skill, the rock should be able to beat its points cost in scissors before papers covers rock.
Except, once again, real games aren't that simple. I've already explained how there are many ways in which that comparison doesn't work (keeping my rock unit far away from your paper, killing your paper asap, etc).
I grant the point. Note that I haven't made any mention of math-hammer with respect to wraithguard.
But you still continue to use the balance test of "two units stand next to each other and exchange fire, how many points are killed". That's just math-hammer without providing all of the numbers.
Also, you did mention math-hammer with respect to wraithguard:
A sternguard veteran firing hellfire rounds will kill, on average, a wraithguard on one shot out of every...(2/3 X 5/6 X 1/3 (10/48))...
five? One in five hellfire rounds kills a wraithguard.
I am dubious about this comparison.
According to your own previous claims marines are the standard that everything must be compared to, and the closest marine equivalent to wraithguard is a marine with a melta gun.
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Post by: Traditio
Peregrine wrote:Yes, which I clearly stated. The wraithguard pay 33% more points per model for:
* +2 toughness (usually resulting in more than a 33% increase in durability)
According to the Chaos Space Marines codex, +2 toughness is worth 6 ppm (mark of nurgle X 2).
24 + 6 = 30
Plus a better gun...
...plus specialist unit/no tax.
[How much is that worth?]
I see your point.
How much do you think a basic wraithguard model should cost, not assuming a d-scythe?
How much should the d-scythe upgrade cost?
See above for where I've explained why this method of evaluating balance is fundamentally broken. I'm really getting tired of repeating the same explanation.
At any rate, I'm willing to entertain both models.
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Post by: SemperMortis
Eldar Cheese:
Wind Riders, And when you upgrade them to Scat Bikes your getting some serious cheddar
WraithKnights: Probably the most under-costed unit in the game atm. If you added 200pts to that model people would still take it.
WraithGuard: T6, This means that most standard weapons are wounding on 6s. It takes shenanigans or anti-vehicle (Light-medium) to wound on 3s and 4s. Furthermore, they are infantry meaning they can get cover easily, and they have a 3+ save. Lets compare them to another fire and forget unit, my Mega Nobz. WraithGuard are 32pts and come standard with a 3+ save, T6 and carry around a D strength weapon. Furthermore they can get to deep strike in with no scatter via webway portal.
Meganobz come standard at 40pts T4, 2+ save and a twin linked shoota (S4AP6) all at BS2 meaning you might get 1 hit. My unit can't run, can't deep strike and can only take an open topped transport to get where its going. Furthermore once I am on the table to do my job I have to actually get OUT of my vehicle, Wraithguard DONT.
So Because I have a better armor save and come with a powerklaw my guys are 8 pts more expensive then a T6 D toting infantrymen. Hmm no wrong.
What else is cheese in the Eldar Codex?
Well the characters for starters are generally better then anything I can take in my own Ork Codex to a significant degree.
How about Warp Spiders, how did that guy win the LVO this year? Was it with Wraith Knights or was it with a horde of Warp Spiders.
ohh and lets not forget they have Flyers with D WEAPONS!
And lets not forget the Eldar Psychic Shenanigans.
So anyway, yes the Eldar Codex is not only Cheddar it is Super, aged Cheddar. The kind you have to go to a specialty store to get.
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Post by: Traditio
Peregrine wrote:Except, once again, real games aren't that simple. I've already explained how there are many ways in which that comparison doesn't work (keeping my rock unit far away from your paper, killing your paper asap, etc).
Again, I grant the point, but only in terms of abstract math-hammering. This is why play-testing exists.
If, in the course of extensive play-testing, rock regularly can kill 200 points worth of scissors before paper beats rock, and this consistently, rock should cost 200 points.
Also, you did mention math-hammer with respect to wraithguard:
A sternguard veteran firing hellfire rounds will kill, on average, a wraithguard on one shot out of every...(2/3 X 5/6 X 1/3 (10/48))...
five? One in five hellfire rounds kills a wraithguard.
That's not just abstract math-hammering, though. How difficult is it to get a squad or 2 of sternguard within 24 inches of wraithguard to fire? 12 inches?
According to your own previous claims marines are the standard that everything must be compared to, and the closest marine equivalent to wraithguard is a marine with a melta gun.
Ok.
Again, I'm willing to grant both methods of comparison. Automatically Appended Next Post: SemperMortis wrote:Wind Riders, And when you upgrade them to Scat Bikes your getting some serious cheddar
Why are windriders OP if we don't take their ability to spam scatterlasers into account?
WraithGuard: T6, This means that most standard weapons are wounding on 6s. It takes shenanigans or anti-vehicle (Light-medium) to wound on 3s and 4s.
Krak missiles wound them on 2s and strip armor.
Lets compare them to another fire and forget unit, my Mega Nobz.
That's not really a fair comparison. Aren't Mega Nobz melee oriented?
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
SemperMortis wrote:Eldar Cheese:
Wind Riders, And when you upgrade them to Scat Bikes your getting some serious cheddar
WraithKnights: Probably the most under-costed unit in the game atm. If you added 200pts to that model people would still take it.
WraithGuard: T6, This means that most standard weapons are wounding on 6s. It takes shenanigans or anti-vehicle (Light-medium) to wound on 3s and 4s. Furthermore, they are infantry meaning they can get cover easily, and they have a 3+ save. Lets compare them to another fire and forget unit, my Mega Nobz. WraithGuard are 32pts and come standard with a 3+ save, T6 and carry around a D strength weapon. Furthermore they can get to deep strike in with no scatter via webway portal.
Meganobz come standard at 40pts T4, 2+ save and a twin linked shoota (S4AP6) all at BS2 meaning you might get 1 hit. My unit can't run, can't deep strike and can only take an open topped transport to get where its going. Furthermore once I am on the table to do my job I have to actually get OUT of my vehicle, Wraithguard DONT.
So Because I have a better armor save and come with a powerklaw my guys are 8 pts more expensive then a T6 D toting infantrymen. Hmm no wrong.
What else is cheese in the Eldar Codex?
Well the characters for starters are generally better then anything I can take in my own Ork Codex to a significant degree.
How about Warp Spiders, how did that guy win the LVO this year? Was it with Wraith Knights or was it with a horde of Warp Spiders.
ohh and lets not forget they have Flyers with D WEAPONS!
And lets not forget the Eldar Psychic Shenanigans.
So anyway, yes the Eldar Codex is not only Cheddar it is Super, aged Cheddar. The kind you have to go to a specialty store to get.
mmm, fresh salt! Comparing one of the weakest codexs in the game, to one of the top tier. 10/10.
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Post by: SemperMortis
cosmicsoybean wrote:SemperMortis wrote:Eldar Cheese:
Wind Riders, And when you upgrade them to Scat Bikes your getting some serious cheddar
WraithKnights: Probably the most under-costed unit in the game atm. If you added 200pts to that model people would still take it.
WraithGuard: T6, This means that most standard weapons are wounding on 6s. It takes shenanigans or anti-vehicle (Light-medium) to wound on 3s and 4s. Furthermore, they are infantry meaning they can get cover easily, and they have a 3+ save. Lets compare them to another fire and forget unit, my Mega Nobz. WraithGuard are 32pts and come standard with a 3+ save, T6 and carry around a D strength weapon. Furthermore they can get to deep strike in with no scatter via webway portal.
Meganobz come standard at 40pts T4, 2+ save and a twin linked shoota (S4AP6) all at BS2 meaning you might get 1 hit. My unit can't run, can't deep strike and can only take an open topped transport to get where its going. Furthermore once I am on the table to do my job I have to actually get OUT of my vehicle, Wraithguard DONT.
So Because I have a better armor save and come with a powerklaw my guys are 8 pts more expensive then a T6 D toting infantrymen. Hmm no wrong.
What else is cheese in the Eldar Codex?
Well the characters for starters are generally better then anything I can take in my own Ork Codex to a significant degree.
How about Warp Spiders, how did that guy win the LVO this year? Was it with Wraith Knights or was it with a horde of Warp Spiders.
ohh and lets not forget they have Flyers with D WEAPONS!
And lets not forget the Eldar Psychic Shenanigans.
So anyway, yes the Eldar Codex is not only Cheddar it is Super, aged Cheddar. The kind you have to go to a specialty store to get.
mmm, fresh salt! Comparing one of the weakest codexs in the game, to one of the top tier. 10/10.
Sorry, I am most familiar with my own codex hence the comparison. If you would like you can go compare these units to the SM equivalent, and I assure you the results are the same.
WraithGuard vs Terminators. guess who wins that competition?
92798
Post by: Traditio
SemperMortis wrote:WraithGuard vs Terminators. guess who wins that competition?
It's really not that comparable. Terminators have a stormbolter (24 inch range) and power fist. They have a 2+ armor save and a 5+ invuln. And they can deepstrike. Not to mention they can take shooty upgrades. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, SemperMortis, I wish to point out:
Wraithguard cannot fire their weapons from within a wave serpent. Wave serpents don't have firing points. They have to disembark to fire.
91916
Post by: zalak
They alone are not broken, but they are in a codex that has some of the most effective psychic phase (maybe other then deamons) and are battle brothers with DE. It does not exactly take a seasoned player to figure out extremely effective ways to use them. Also its bloody D weapons on models that cost about as much as a termi. I cant think of any thing that has that much damage output in the shooting phase that is infantry in any army that cost about the same points.
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Post by: SemperMortis
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, SemperMortis, I wish to point out:
Wraithguard cannot fire their weapons from within a wave serpent. Wave serpents don't have firing points. They have to disembark to fire.
correct me if I am wrong, but since they are allied with DE they can just hop a ride on DE OT transports and fire away without risking themselves to return fire. And at T6 with a 3+ save they aren't to concerned with the transport (that can jink) exploding because it wounds on a 6 and they still get that 3+ save.
92798
Post by: Traditio
SemperMortis wrote:correct me if I am wrong, but since they are allied with DE they can just hop a ride on DE OT transports and fire away without risking themselves to return fire. And at T6 with a 3+ save they aren't to concerned with the transport (that can jink) exploding because it wounds on a 6 and they still get that 3+ save.
At that point, you're not talking about the eldar codex. You're talking about Eldar + Dark Eldar.
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Post by: CrownAxe
Traditio wrote:SemperMortis wrote:correct me if I am wrong, but since they are allied with DE they can just hop a ride on DE OT transports and fire away without risking themselves to return fire. And at T6 with a 3+ save they aren't to concerned with the transport (that can jink) exploding because it wounds on a 6 and they still get that 3+ save.
At that point, you're not talking about the eldar codex. You're talking about Eldar + Dark Eldar.
So what? You don't play wraith guard alone, you play them in an army. And if in the army they are OP what difference does it make?
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Post by: Traditio
CrownAxe wrote:So what? You don't play wraith guard alone, you play them in an army. And if in the army they are OP what difference does it make?
Because then the problem isn't wraithguard. The problem is the fact that allied detachments are allowed and have such and such rules.
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Post by: CrownAxe
Traditio wrote:CrownAxe wrote:So what? You don't play wraith guard alone, you play them in an army. And if in the army they are OP what difference does it make?
Because then the problem isn't wraithguard. The problem is the fact that allied detachments are allowed and have such and such rules.
Then what about just taking a wave serpant? why isn't that broken because that gets them in range
92798
Post by: Traditio
CrownAxe wrote:Then what about just taking a wave serpant? why isn't that broken because that gets them in range
They have to disembark to fire and that 110 point (or more) wave serpent is exposed to fire and assaults in the meantime.
Again, I repeat my original question:
How much damage do wraithguard actually do in the course of a game?
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Post by: CrownAxe
Traditio wrote:CrownAxe wrote:Then what about just taking a wave serpant? why isn't that broken because that gets them in range
They have to disembark to fire and that 110 point (or more) wave serpent is exposed to fire and assaults in the meantime.
Again, I repeat my original question:
How much damage do wraithguard actually do in the course of a game?
The wave serpant has jink saves, a serpant shield, and can flat out to be in front the enemy on the first turn. Even when you do kill it the Wraithguard are now where they need to be and kill stuff
And you question is a bad question, there is no feasable way to answer it because their are too many variables.
92798
Post by: Traditio
CrownAxe wrote:The wave serpant has jink saves
4+ jink save. Which can't be used in close combat.
a serpant shield
5+ invuln. It's a 5+ invuln.
and can flat out to be in front the enemy on the first turn.
I don't think you can flat out and disembark in the same turn, can you?
Even when you do kill it the Wraithguard are now where they need to be and kill stuff
So what? Are the wraithguard going to kill 320+ points of models before they and the wave serpent get blown up?
And you question is a bad question, there is no feasable way to answer it because their are too many variables.
Have you played against wraithguard?
On average, how much damage have they actually done?
I've played against wraithguard.
You know me. I am quick to complain about things that I think are unfair or game breaking.
I don't think that wraithguard are particularly unfair or game breaking.
They could use a points increase (say, 40 ppm without d-scythes or 50 ppm with d-scythes).
But they're not game-breaking.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another point of view:
1 riptide = 180 points.
1 riptide with the 72" range gun = 185 points.
5 wraithguard with d-scythes = 210 points.
Ponder that.
One of these is actually OP and DRASTICALLY undercosted.
And it's not the wraithguard.
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Post by: CrownAxe
As usually your lack of knoweldge about the game is apparent. Serpant Shield is 2+ to ignore penetrating hits and make them just a glance. Meaning you can't get a lucky explode (its holo fields that are 5++). And with 4+ jink (which doesn't affect the wraithguard at all) it means you have to deal an average of 6hps at av12 to destroy the wave serpants to start hurting the wraithguard. You don't seem to understand tactics either. I want you to assault the wave serpant to kill it. That means you the Wraithguard get out unharmed and you left a unit right in front of them to kill. Its why the wave serpant flats out to in front of the army so that when it does die the Wraithguard are right in front of the enemy forces to start deleting units. And yes I've played against Wraithguard. The difference though is that my opponents are good at the game. As far as we can tell you've only played against wraithguard piloted by a player who isn't even good enough to space them out against a plasma cannon and that's beginner tactics. Play against a good player and get back to me. And the Riptide isn't even OP you are just bad at the game.
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Post by: Traditio
CrownAxe wrote:As usually your lack of knoweldge about the game is apparent. Serpant Shield is 2+ to ignore penetrating hits and make them just a glance. Meaning you can't get a lucky explode (its holo fields that are 5++). And with 4+ jink (which doesn't affect the wraithguard at all) it means you have to deal an average of 6hps at av12 to destroy the wave serpants to start hurting the wraithguard.
I had serpent shields confused with holo shields. Mea culpa.
You don't seem to understand tactics either. I want you to assault the wave serpant to kill it. That means you the Wraithguard get out unharmed and you left a unit right in front of them to kill. Its why the wave serpant flats out to in front of the army so that when it does die the Wraithguard are right in front of the enemy forces to start deleting units.
And yes I've played against Wraithguard. The difference though is that my opponents are good at the game. As far as we can tell you've only played against wraithguard piloted by a player who isn't even good enough to space them out against a plasma cannon and that's beginner tactics. Play against a good player and get back to me.
And the Riptide isn't even OP you are just bad at the game.
Fine. You've played against wraithguard. Again, I repeat my question:
How much damage do they actually deal, on average, in your experience?
Edit:
The fact that you're unwilling to divulge this information, to my mind, provides evidence that the OP-ness of wraithguard is drastically overhyped.
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Post by: CrownAxe
How much damage do they actually deal, on average, in your experience?
I told you this is a stupid question because IT DEPENDS.
Wraithguard are about deleting a unit or two regarldess of what that unit. So it comes down to what that opponent brought. If that opponent brought a 500 point baneblade then the wraithguard will kill 500pts in its first turn of shooting easy. But if its some Gladius list spaming a bunch of cheap units to get free cheap transports shows up then the wraithguard are going to struggle to even make 100 pts back because the most expensive unit should even be 100 pts worth
Which is why its annoying to see you complain about everything because it only comes from your very narrow view of your 5ed SM army and has no scope on how the game actually plays.
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Post by: Traditio
CrownAxe wrote:I told you this is a stupid question because IT DEPENDS.
Except, given the wording of my question, it really doesn't.
YOU have played against wraithguard.
In YOUR experience with YOUR games in which wraithguard were used by YOUR oppponent(s), how much of YOUR stuff got blown up, on average?
Note the key words "YOUR" and "on average."
Wraithguard are about deleting a unit or two regarldess of what that unit.
Yes.
So it comes down to what that opponent brought. If that opponent brought a 500 point baneblade then the wraithguard will kill 500pts in its first turn of shooting easy.
Yes.
But if its some Gladius list spaming a bunch of cheap units to get free cheap transports shows up then the wraithguard are going to struggle to even make 100 pts back because the most expensive unit should even be 100 pts worth
Yes.
So what I'm getting from this is:
"Well, I was playing a list of like 5 imperial knights...waaaaaaah...boo hoo...however, in another game, I was playing orks. Not impressed in that game, really."
Yes, I freely admit. Wraithguard are OP if you rely on a low model count cheese list which does not revolve around fliers. At that point, however, you've pretty much revoked your right to complain about OP units.
Otherwise? Not so much.
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Post by: SemperMortis
CrownAxe wrote:How much damage do they actually deal, on average, in your experience? I told you this is a stupid question because IT DEPENDS. Wraithguard are about deleting a unit or two regarldess of what that unit. So it comes down to what that opponent brought. If that opponent brought a 500 point baneblade then the wraithguard will kill 500pts in its first turn of shooting easy. But if its some Gladius list spaming a bunch of cheap units to get free cheap transports shows up then the wraithguard are going to struggle to even make 100 pts back because the most expensive unit should even be 100 pts worth Which is why its annoying to see you complain about everything because it only comes from your very narrow view of your 5ed SM army and has no scope on how the game actually plays. Well I usually run a BW filled with Boyz a Warboss and a Painboy. So that is about a 160pt vehicle filled with 19 boyz (114pts) a Nob with a Powerklaw (thats another 35pts) A Warboss with a PowerKlaw, Eavy Armor and DLS so thats another 114pts I believe, and a painboy another 50 pts. So if the Wraithguard get out and flame that unit thats 450+pts dead in 1 turn as well as a Warlord Kill, a IC kill and 2 unit kills for a grand total of 4 Victory/Kill Points. Or conversely they might go after a grot unit and kill 35pts of grots who the Feth knows They all die btw because of that wonderful rule (No Escape) which doomed open topped vehicles even further...good job GW. (Side note I don't have my codex in front of me)
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Post by: CrownAxe
Any army that has a big expensive unit suffers. Orks took their big expensive stompa? well now the stompa is dead ans they're out like 800 points. Someone too a super friends unit of all the SM characters he likes? when a bunch of StrD flames showed up and toasted that 600 pt unit of characters. Like I said your inexperience shows.
And 5 IKs lists aren't even good.
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Post by: SemperMortis
CrownAxe wrote:Any army that has a big expensive unit suffers. Orks took their big expensive stompa? well now the stompa is dead ans they're out like 800 points. Someone too a super friends unit of all the SM characters he likes? when a bunch of StrD flames showed up and toasted that 600 pt unit of characters. Like I said your inexperience shows.
And 5 IKs lists aren't even good.
My experience against wraithguard is that they kill my best unit and then I waste an entire turn shooting at them because I don't want to assault them because Strength D Wall of Flame. So what happens is they kill my best unit in the game, (200-300pts sometimes more) then they proceed to soak up an entire turn of shooting. They then either get assaulted in the vain hope of tying them up so they can't shoot again or If i don't have anything close enough, the handful of survivors pop into their Transport and travel to my next expensive thing and kill that before they die.
So on average they not only make up their points and then some, they also soak up 1-2 turns of shooting which multiplies their value a significant amount.
92798
Post by: Traditio
An amusing story involving wraithguard:
In my last game against eldar, my opponent charged an assault marine or two (bolt pistol and chainsword) with one or two wraithguards (I forget how many).
Wraithguard failed to wound.
My assault marine(s) succeeded in hitting and wounding.
Wraithguard failed to save.
Chainsword to the face.
That actually happened.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CrownAxe wrote:Any army that has a big expensive unit suffers. Orks took their big expensive stompa? well now the stompa is dead ans they're out like 800 points. Someone too a super friends unit of all the SM characters he likes? when a bunch of StrD flames showed up and toasted that 600 pt unit of characters. Like I said your inexperience shows.
And 5 IKs lists aren't even good.
I don't see this as problematic.
It promotes a meta of "boys before toys." Automatically Appended Next Post: SemperMortis wrote:My experience against wraithguard is that they kill my best unit and then I waste an entire turn shooting at them because I don't want to assault them because Strength D Wall of Flame.
You play orks.
Declare your first assault with a throwaway unit. Force overwatch.
Declare your second assault with the unit you actually expect to kill the wraithguard with.
Wraithguard dead.
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
Traditio wrote:An amusing story involving wraithguard: In my last game against eldar, my opponent charged an assault marine or two (bolt pistol and chainsword) with one or two wraithguards (I forget how many). Wraithguard failed to wound. My assault marine(s) succeeded in hitting and wounding. Wraithguard failed to save. Chainsword to the face. That actually happened. Automatically Appended Next Post: CrownAxe wrote:Any army that has a big expensive unit suffers. Orks took their big expensive stompa? well now the stompa is dead ans they're out like 800 points. Someone too a super friends unit of all the SM characters he likes? when a bunch of StrD flames showed up and toasted that 600 pt unit of characters. Like I said your inexperience shows. And 5 IKs lists aren't even good. I don't see this as problematic. It promotes a meta of "boys before toys." Tradito I don't know if your being purposefully obtuse or if your attempting to anger us IE Trolling. Boyz Before Toyz died in 5th edition and in 7th it is unfeasible. Having watched a 120 Boy green tide get whittled down to 65 models in a single turn of shooting proves that it is not feasible to run a list of boyz before toyz in the current meta. So what your saying if your being serious which I doubt, is that in order to minimize the chances of being destroyed by D Scythe toting wraithguard is to run lots of cheap infantry, which if you haven't played against an eldar army recently are incredibly vulnerable to the plethora of S6+ shooting from an Eldar Army, not to mention the wraithknight who loves infantry, they stick to his boots perfectly. You play orks. Declare your first assault with a throwaway unit. Force overwatch. Declare your second assault with the unit you actually expect to kill the wraithguard with. Wraithguard dead. So just waste another unit to soak up the overwatch to attack with another squad that will (NOT) kill the wraithguard in a single turn unless they are meganobz. S4 Boyz vs T6 Wraithguard = Wounding on 6s. teamed with that 3+ save means realistically they will kill 1-2 and the Nob with a PK will kill 1-2 if he is lucky. Your solution is terrible.
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Post by: CrownAxe
I don't see this as problematic. It promotes a meta of "boys before toys."
And thats just your opinion. Its not how the game actually plays out. Its not 5ed anymore
92798
Post by: Traditio
SemperMortis wrote:Tradito I don't know if your being purposefully obtuse or if your attempting to anger us IE Trolling. Boyz Before Toyz died in 5th edition and in 7th it is unfeasible. Having watched a 120 Boy green tide get whittled down to 65 models in a single turn of shooting proves that it is not feasible to run a list of boyz before toyz in the current meta.
So what your saying if your being serious which I doubt, is that in order to minimize the chances of being destroyed by D Scythe toting wraithguard is to run lots of cheap infantry, which if you haven't played against an eldar army recently are incredibly vulnerable to the plethora of S6+ shooting from an Eldar Army, not to mention the wraithknight who loves infantry, they stick to his boots perfectly.
That's not a problem with wraithguard.
That's a problem with wraithknights, scatter bikes and other broken elements of the 6th and 7th edition meta.
102655
Post by: SemperMortis
Traditio wrote:SemperMortis wrote:Tradito I don't know if your being purposefully obtuse or if your attempting to anger us IE Trolling. Boyz Before Toyz died in 5th edition and in 7th it is unfeasible. Having watched a 120 Boy green tide get whittled down to 65 models in a single turn of shooting proves that it is not feasible to run a list of boyz before toyz in the current meta.
So what your saying if your being serious which I doubt, is that in order to minimize the chances of being destroyed by D Scythe toting wraithguard is to run lots of cheap infantry, which if you haven't played against an eldar army recently are incredibly vulnerable to the plethora of S6+ shooting from an Eldar Army, not to mention the wraithknight who loves infantry, they stick to his boots perfectly.
That's not a problem with wraithguard.
That's a problem with wraithknights, scatter bikes and other broken elements of the 6th and 7th edition meta.
So because Wraithguard are Broken OP and your only solution that you can give me is to play more Boyz before toyz to lessen the impact it becomes the fault of Scatter bikes and wraithknights.
Your logic is astounding, completely wrong and terribly inaccurate, but astounding nonetheless.
92798
Post by: Traditio
SemperMortis wrote:So just waste another unit to soak up the overwatch to attack with another squad that will (NOT) kill the wraithguard in a single turn unless they are meganobz. S4 Boyz vs T6 Wraithguard = Wounding on 6s. teamed with that 3+ save means realistically they will kill 1-2 and the Nob with a PK will kill 1-2 if he is lucky.
Your solution is terrible.
Yeah, you can't expect the boys to be effective. If you have a nob with a powerklaw, however, you should eventually be able to kill those wraithguard.
In 1 round of combat? Maybe not.
Eventually?
Probably.
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Post by: Tyel
I am not convinced regular Wraithguard are that good. They tend to be pushed out of lists by Fire Dragons.
D-scythes are nasty but really that's a meta thing. Non-scatter deepstrike onto your opponent's not-invisible deathstar. They are comically dead and the game is probably over.
Against a more MSU style list however they can easily fail to make their points back or just break even. If your opponent can't reliably kill them then you are laughing but if they can't then their list probably has problems.
I thought the Wraithknight was broken on release and still reckon it is in a casual setting. As people say it should be 100+ points more expensive. For tournaments though I don't think its as broken - its just something that your list needs to be able to handle.
Really the problem with Eldar is that they are so reliable. I reckon the Aspect Warrior Formation for +1 BS is potentially the most broken formation, along with the always running 6. It means the Eldar player can go "this unit will get to there and it will almost certainly kill/cripple that unit unless the dice really go against me" and so on. Warp Spiders are probably the most egregious example but it applies across the board.
Necrons have this but in reverse. With some slightly above average dice rolling you can shrug off entire rounds of certain opponents shooting while you progressively take out their stuff.
Most of the weaker armies can't skew things so much in their favour. You will have that game where the dice are a bit below average and as a result you will lose. This makes it harder to win tournaments.
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Name any other unit that does the same damage for 32 points first.
63000
Post by: Peregrine
Traditio wrote:I don't see this as problematic.
It promotes a meta of "boys before toys."
I see. So when the kind of list you want to play is at a disadvantage it's a major problem and your opponents all need to nerf their own lists so that you compete. But if the list someone else wants to play is at a disadvantage then that's ok, it's just how the meta is. Once again it is clear that your guiding principle here is "I play the game the right way, everyone else is having fun in the wrong ways".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the people who are not Traditio and may be having trouble following his argument, allow me to post the following quotes:
Traditio wrote:What could possibly justify spending $140 on an imperial knight? Seriously. Give me a list of reasons why someone would buy one. For every reason you list, I will be able to tell you why there's something wrong with that person.
Traditio wrote:You dropped $140 on a model because it's pretty? If you have $140 to drop on a random decoration, that's money that you could have donated to charity. While a pretty model is sitting on your shelf, people are starving in Africa. How many bags of rice and beans do you think $140 could purchase?
In Traditio's opinion you are a bad person if you buy expensive 40k models. If your knight/stompa/etc is at a disadvantage then that's a good thing, because you shouldn't have bought it in the first place.
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Post by: shortymcnostrill
Fire dragons, any other melta unit? Assuming you're talking about the single shot variant, as the D-flamers are actually 42ppm.
They're about as hard to kill as a tyranid Mc. Wether they come in a cardboard transport or with an allied archon, that's about 300 points spent to kill a unit and die. I think there are more efficient ways to do this, the wraithguard unit is more of a deepstriking, slow and short-ranged distraction carnifex (albeit a lethal one).
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
An Archon to do that job is less than 100 points. So it is more like 250 points to point at a unit and watch it die.
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Post by: Tarvitz77
Ignoring the wraith-war going on, I'd say the following units are OP:
Warp Spiders - I think everybody already knows this, but they're stupid. 19pts for a crazy maneuverable unit (movement 6+2D6, run up to 6, assault phase jump 2d6, enemy turn jump 2d6 every time they shoot you), with a gun that is effective against anything short of a vehicle with decent armour. If you manage to assault them, they have power armour and hit and run, so they have a chance of getting away, depending on what you managed to assault them with. Also sixes to wound become ap1, so they can shred elite infantry with a bit of extra luck too (or just weight of fire...). Taking a 10pt exarch upgrade also means they can't be pinned, fall back, or anything else.
Farseer - Less complaints about this guy, but I think he's a little bit cheap for the psychic power that he brings. Other psykers tend to be better fighters, but you're not usually bringing them for that, while the farseer gets his runes, his ghosthelm, and some great disciplines to choose from. I'm not sure by how much, but a slight cost increase would be good.
Apart from that, the bs5 aspect formation is pretty stupid and I wish it wasn't there, but...that's about it. Eldar infantry tend to fold pretty quickly when pressure is applied, and come at marine prices+, so I don't think they're all that overpowered.
Then again, too much time on the dark side may have coloured my perception, so I'd like to hear what other people think is OP in the codex!
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Post by: Mr Morden
Its 40k so it depends
Are you comparing the Eldar Codex to:
Other 7.5 edition Codexes like Marines, Necrons or Tau? Its probably ok
7th edition Codex's that got royally shafted by 7th and are laughable by comparison to Eldar and the other 7.5 Codex's....
Legacy Codex's that vary in quality between a bit better than 7th and terrible - Chaos and a few others...........
The 7.5 Codex's are actually not badly balanced against each other and internally vary - Eldar being probably the best here in that pretty much everything is good too awesome/OP. Playing against them with lesser codex's is an uphill struggle due to not only unit quality disparity but the recent trend for the formations to give free stuff.
There probably should be a table somewhere that tells you how many extra points the 7th and Legacy Codex's should get when playing against power codex's to compensate fro all the free stuff they get in terms of rules, free units, abilities etc etc.....
Anything else is like playing chess where one player gets to swap his Pawns for Queens...............
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Post by: Turnip Jedi
Yes they are D weapons of anykind should not be in base 40k at all, it has it's place in Apoc but elsewhere its just a festival of stupid
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Post by: GreyCrow
I have trouble understanding why Wraithguards wouldn't be considered a very strong choice ?
32ppm for a D-1 Flamer, that Ignores Armour being AP2, Ignores Cover (!), can ride in a Wave Serpent for precision Deep Strike and Wounds "everything" on a 3+ with each Wound inflicting 1 to 3 wounds/Hull Points.
It's also T6, and T6 1W is super annoying to deal with. Not impossible, but annoying.
Let's compare what 32ppm gives other Codexes :
- 1 Basic Terminator
- 1 Rhino
- A Ravenwing Black Knight
- 2 Marines
It's definitely a very strong unit, I don't get the QQ about "Wraithguards are balanced please buff".
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Post by: the_scotsman
Are you willing to give them a standard dedicated transport? (I'm guessing no, because you argue tacticals are UP when you don't give them a standard rhino and drop pod.)
Take them in a wave serpent, aka the most durable basic DT in the game, and then they carry around a threat of complete obliteration to literally anything from massed guardsmen to superheavies.
Is it as bonkers as Scatbikes? No, because they don't just automatically make their points back by dakka-Ing more points than their worth from across the table.
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Post by: XvReaperXv
Swampmist wrote:Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high- ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.
Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.
My Warp Talons with scatter, no guns, no grenades, no 18 inch move, costs double the amount of your "expensive Hawks" count say HI!
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Post by: Tactical_Spam
Pain4Pleasure wrote:No, none. Eldar are fine. Learn to play and beat what they have or go color in another book
 Is that really your response? Git Gud? Eldar are broken as feth and need to be toned down. Apparently, you and "Tacticals should get Gauss" up there should get a little perspective.
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Post by: Experiment 626
XvReaperXv wrote: Swampmist wrote:Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high- ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.
Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.
My Warp Talons with scatter, no guns, no grenades, no 18 inch move, costs double the amount of your "expensive Hawks" count say HI!
Honestly, it's really not fair for us to compare anything from our CSM codex to even Orks or Tyranids & the other bottom feeders... Our book is still a 5th ed book playing with 4th ed pts costing.
When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.
Unfortunately, his weapons are both 'Heavy' type, and the model lacks Relentless, limiting his shooting potential to basically acting as a static turret in cover of some kind...
He also counts as an Herald, meaning it's far harder to spam them, due to being limited to 0-4/ HQ slot. Otherwise, they require the use of the Warpflame Host formation, that will include a 'Herald tax', but can spam up to 9 of them.
(note too, that the formation bonus will add +1S to their shooting attacks!)
All of their attacks however also carry the double-edged Warpflame rule, meaning you need to spam/focus fire down a single target until it's completely dead or utterly crippled.
So really, the only other choice that Chaos has that's in any way comparable to a Wraithguard unit, is to go back to the non-functional CSM codex, and take either a unit of Chosen w/4-5 Meltaguns/Plasma guns OR a unit of Havocs with only 4 Melta/Plasma gun slots.
The Chosen unit will cost 130pts + Rhino = 165pts base for 4 meltaguns (or 185pts if Plasma is chosen)
The Havoc unit will cost 115pts + Rhino = 150pts base for 4 meltaguns (or 170pts if going Plasma)
Neither of those comes close to the capabilities of even standard, non-Scythe Wraithguard!
Hell, the much harder to use close combat Wraithblades will likely still out-kill the CSM options!
78491
Post by: XvReaperXv
Experiment 626 wrote:XvReaperXv wrote: Swampmist wrote:Personally no, though people regularly bring up Swooping Hawks as the fifth most powerful thing, because 18" move, haywire nades and no-scatter DS ate very good, but I tend to disagree to a point. Their exspensive, have an assualt 3 Lazgun as their only non-one use or one-per-model-per-turn shooting weapon, and are one of the only models in the game that ypur happy to have Heavy Bolters against. Sure, they kill a LR 9/10 if they assualt it, but if they are you failed to kill a clumped unit of t3 models with a 4+ (possibly 5+ don't remember off the top of my head) save. The largw blast can hurt a bit, but likely won't do a lot with mid-strength and high- ap. Their basically worse scatbikes against everything but LRs, fliers and SHWs.
Edit: Webway Portals aren't a psychic power, they're a wargear for DE ICs that are pretty fricken cheap for what they give.
My Warp Talons with scatter, no guns, no grenades, no 18 inch move, costs double the amount of your "expensive Hawks" count say HI!
Honestly, it's really not fair for us to compare anything from our CSM codex to even Orks or Tyranids & the other bottom feeders... Our book is still a 5th ed book playing with 4th ed pts costing.
When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.
Unfortunately, his weapons are both 'Heavy' type, and the model lacks Relentless, limiting his shooting potential to basically acting as a static turret in cover of some kind...
He also counts as an Herald, meaning it's far harder to spam them, due to being limited to 0-4/ HQ slot. Otherwise, they require the use of the Warpflame Host formation, that will include a 'Herald tax', but can spam up to 9 of them.
(note too, that the formation bonus will add +1S to their shooting attacks!)
All of their attacks however also carry the double-edged Warpflame rule, meaning you need to spam/focus fire down a single target until it's completely dead or utterly crippled.
So really, the only other choice that Chaos has that's in any way comparable to a Wraithguard unit, is to go back to the non-functional CSM codex, and take either a unit of Chosen w/4-5 Meltaguns/Plasma guns OR a unit of Havocs with only 4 Melta/Plasma gun slots.
The Chosen unit will cost 130pts + Rhino = 165pts base for 4 meltaguns (or 185pts if Plasma is chosen)
The Havoc unit will cost 115pts + Rhino = 150pts base for 4 meltaguns (or 170pts if going Plasma)
Neither of those comes close to the capabilities of even standard, non-Scythe Wraithguard!
Hell, the much harder to use close combat Wraithblades will likely still out-kill the CSM options!
Oh I know it's not fair, but to see anyone complaining that anything in the Eldar codex isn't good needs a reality check lol.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Maybe it's because the couple of Eldar players I've played against in recent years have been genuinely decent human beings who have no problem dialing back their lists when asked, but overall I don't find Eldar to be too rage-inducing.
Most Eldar players I've met seem to know that their book is freaking crazy as all bat gak, and will happily leave their obnoxious lists & formations aside for more competitive-minded play.
On the other hand, Loyalist players are rage-inducing. It's honestly hard to find a game against a marine player that's actually enjoyable these days, as either they refuse to tone down their GSF's/Grav spam/super friends deathstar/whatever, and then cry & ***** endlessly that Chaos is OP as hell because Helturkies/Daemons are auto-win against them.
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Post by: Kanluwen
shortymcnostrill wrote:Fire dragons, any other melta unit? Assuming you're talking about the single shot variant, as the D-flamers are actually 42ppm.
They're about as hard to kill as a tyranid Mc. Wether they come in a cardboard transport or with an allied archon, that's about 300 points spent to kill a unit and die. I think there are more efficient ways to do this, the wraithguard unit is more of a deepstriking, slow and short-ranged distraction carnifex (albeit a lethal one).
You understand that as soon as something actually becomes lethal, it ceases to be a "distraction carnifex" right?
Distraction Carnifex is a term used for a scary looking unit that is ultimately ineffectual.
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Post by: SemperMortis
Experiment 626 wrote:Maybe it's because the couple of Eldar players I've played against in recent years have been genuinely decent human beings who have no problem dialing back their lists when asked, but overall I don't find Eldar to be too rage-inducing.
Most Eldar players I've met seem to know that their book is freaking crazy as all bat gak, and will happily leave their obnoxious lists & formations aside for more competitive-minded play.
On the other hand, Loyalist players are rage-inducing. It's honestly hard to find a game against a marine player that's actually enjoyable these days, as either they refuse to tone down their GSF's/Grav spam/super friends deathstar/whatever, and then cry & ***** endlessly that Chaos is OP as hell because Helturkies/Daemons are auto-win against them.
But really how do you tone down a Codex that is filled with cheese?
Wraith Guard
Wraith Knights
Wind Riders
Warp Spiders
Fire Dragons
Psychic Shenanigans.
In any other codex you would base your entire army around a similar unit.
So basically your opponent has to take Dire Avengers and Rangers and maybe some fire prisms, Ohh and howling banshees. So basically the only way to "Tone down" the eldar codex is to take a bunch of aspect warriors, and even then its still a good list that is competitive against friendly gamers.
30726
Post by: Arson Fire
From a tyranid players perspective, wraith guard are a hard counter to any walking MC (meaning most of the codex).
Swarm units are the obvious answer to them, but the rest of the eldar army has little trouble dealing with those.
I've played against the Wraith Host formation many times.
Giving them battle focus gives them a great threat range, along with the ability to JSJ. They can cover ground surprisingly fast (particularly if with a spirit seer who rolled Quicken), and this is just on foot, without a wave serpent to assist them.
More so than most units, flyrant spam is about the only way for tyranids to deal with them. Even then you have to be damn careful about placement. Re-rolls to hit within 18" of the spirit seer give them a decent chance of scoring a hit on a flyer, and then you're only a 6 away from losing your model. I've lost many a tyrant to these guys.
Not to mention the 'delete any one unit' teamup with dark eldar.
More than anything else, wraith guard are what forced me to change my regular lists to flyrant spam.
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Post by: coblen
My experiences with wraithguard have been hit or miss. I don't think they usually work very well. They portal in kill one thing and then die. They compete in the same space as fire dragons, and I just always find myself wanting fire dragons instead. They both kill imperial knights just fine, and I don't need them for much else.
If anything I think it speaks to the ridiculousness of the webway portal. Fire dragons and wraithguard would both just be okay by themselves, but the archon makes them unstoppable assassins. Most of the units you try to compare wraithguard to would be just as overpowered if they could also team up with an archon. I think this more points to the archon being overpowered than the things he brings in.
Wave serpents are also very good but they are expensive. A unit of wraithguard with scythes and a serpent is 320 points. It damn better be hard to deal with at that point cost. I wish I could just stick them in rhino's. This unit costs as much as 3 units of swooping hawks/warp spiders/fire dragons. Nearly as much as 12 scatter bikes, and more than a wraithknight. Even still it tends to feel like a one and done unit, and personally I don't like spending over three hundred points on something like that.
Its not to say that the unit doesn't have amazing potential. It's got way higher high moments then other comparable units. To give an example I had one unit lay there templates across a riptide, a building fire point filled with fire warriors, and another unit of fire warriors on top of the building with their devilish. They killed all of it. This is the kind of amazing thing this unit can do compared to fire dragons. This doesn't happen in your usual game though, and it definitely does not happen enough to justify the cost. 9/10 I'll take the cheap reliable fire dragon. If eldar had access to stern guard, or imperial guard melta vets, or crisis suits I would end up taking them instead as well.
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Post by: bullyboy
wraithguard by themselves are not overpowered, good, yes, deadly, yes, but so short ranged and vulnerable to assault.
Bringing in the WWP shenanigans is pointless because then you look at every other unit with allied cheese options, plus not everyone plays them that way.
I actually think the Wraith host is a great way to play them because now you have Battle Focus, plus the option of getting access to a psychic power or warlord trait that allows you to add 3" to that run and shoot.
The wave serpent certainly gets you where you need to be, but it's often a one shot deal, but yes, you will more than likely kill the intended target. Vs some armies that's no big deal, but vs others that rely on that big bad knight etc, ouch.
I think that wraith scythes are a different beast entirely. Their ability to prevent assault or ignore cover (sorry Ravenwing) makes them really nasty.
Bottom line, the wraiths played like a wraith army are fluffy and not overpowered (except the wraithknight which is way too cheap but preaching to the choir here), but this can be abused with many other options available through DE etc. Imperial players should not complain though, their ability to ally and take grav-spam (which slaughters wraiths) is on par with anything the wraithguard can do.
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Post by: Mechanical Crow
Wow. This is sad. As an owner of a wraithguard army they aren't anywhere near broken.
I bet I could make a ranger army and still get told its broken.
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Post by: Experiment 626
SemperMortis wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:Maybe it's because the couple of Eldar players I've played against in recent years have been genuinely decent human beings who have no problem dialing back their lists when asked, but overall I don't find Eldar to be too rage-inducing.
Most Eldar players I've met seem to know that their book is freaking crazy as all bat gak, and will happily leave their obnoxious lists & formations aside for more competitive-minded play.
On the other hand, Loyalist players are rage-inducing. It's honestly hard to find a game against a marine player that's actually enjoyable these days, as either they refuse to tone down their GSF's/Grav spam/super friends deathstar/whatever, and then cry & ***** endlessly that Chaos is OP as hell because Helturkies/Daemons are auto-win against them.
But really how do you tone down a Codex that is filled with cheese?
Wraith Guard
Wraith Knights
Wind Riders
Warp Spiders
Fire Dragons
Psychic Shenanigans.
In any other codex you would base your entire army around a similar unit.
So basically your opponent has to take Dire Avengers and Rangers and maybe some fire prisms, Ohh and howling banshees. So basically the only way to "Tone down" the eldar codex is to take a bunch of aspect warriors, and even then its still a good list that is competitive against friendly gamers.
Not at all. It's really just as simple as doing things like;
- Only giving 1 per 3 Jetbikes a weapon upgrade. (or else marking out 1 per 3 as actually having the relevant Scat Laser/Shuricannon if the unit is built all upgraded - hence why magnets are so awesome!)
- Not taking any Aspect Host formations. (or even formations in general)
- Only taking 0-1 of things like Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, etc... and not always bringing their most optimised loadout. (same goes for things like Riptides, which are far less obnoxious when running the Heavy Burst cannon vs. Ion)
- Not using D-scythes.
- Don't abuse the obvious allied shenanigans, such as the WWP auto-delivery system.
Same deal goes for my Chaos army in return... If my opponent is being generous enough to not take any D-scythes, drastically limit their Scatbikes and no Warp Spiders or Wraithknight at all, then it's only fair that I agree to not take Precognition on my LoC, cap all my invulns at no better than 3++ regardless of augment sources, new Relics use the same rules as all other Hellforged Artifacts, and Horrors can only take from the Lore of Tzeentch.
Boom. Simple scaled back 40k.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Experiment 626 wrote:SemperMortis wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:Maybe it's because the couple of Eldar players I've played against in recent years have been genuinely decent human beings who have no problem dialing back their lists when asked, but overall I don't find Eldar to be too rage-inducing.
Most Eldar players I've met seem to know that their book is freaking crazy as all bat gak, and will happily leave their obnoxious lists & formations aside for more competitive-minded play.
On the other hand, Loyalist players are rage-inducing. It's honestly hard to find a game against a marine player that's actually enjoyable these days, as either they refuse to tone down their GSF's/Grav spam/super friends deathstar/whatever, and then cry & ***** endlessly that Chaos is OP as hell because Helturkies/Daemons are auto-win against them.
But really how do you tone down a Codex that is filled with cheese?
Wraith Guard
Wraith Knights
Wind Riders
Warp Spiders
Fire Dragons
Psychic Shenanigans.
In any other codex you would base your entire army around a similar unit.
So basically your opponent has to take Dire Avengers and Rangers and maybe some fire prisms, Ohh and howling banshees. So basically the only way to "Tone down" the eldar codex is to take a bunch of aspect warriors, and even then its still a good list that is competitive against friendly gamers.
Not at all. It's really just as simple as doing things like;
- Only giving 1 per 3 Jetbikes a weapon upgrade. (or else marking out 1 per 3 as actually having the relevant Scat Laser/Shuricannon if the unit is built all upgraded - hence why magnets are so awesome!)
- Not taking any Aspect Host formations. (or even formations in general)
- Only taking 0-1 of things like Warp Spiders, Wraithknights, etc... and not always bringing their most optimised loadout. (same goes for things like Riptides, which are far less obnoxious when running the Heavy Burst cannon vs. Ion)
- Not using D-scythes.
- Don't abuse the obvious allied shenanigans, such as the WWP auto-delivery system.
Same deal goes for my Chaos army in return... If my opponent is being generous enough to not take any D-scythes, drastically limit their Scatbikes and no Warp Spiders or Wraithknight at all, then it's only fair that I agree to not take Precognition on my LoC, cap all my invulns at no better than 3++ regardless of augment sources, new Relics use the same rules as all other Hellforged Artifacts, and Horrors can only take from the Lore of Tzeentch.
Boom. Simple scaled back 40k.
See this? This is a good response.. Thank you sure. Most people would DEMAND an eldar player cap himself, and then load his army with absolute cheese of Gouda possible in their army. Thank you for understanding nerfing goes both ways.
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Post by: Imateria
Like everyone else I agree that Wraithknights, Wind Riders and Warp Spiders are all undercosted by some way. Wraitguard however are in an unusual position.
There best use, IMO, is as an anti-Deathstar/GMC/Supe Heavy unit, though Fire Dragons are even better against the Super Heavies. Frankly in my experience being T6 with a 3+ and 1W makes them surprisingly fragile, most other units in the game that are in the T5/6 range tend to have mutliple wounds and access to things like Feel no Pain or invulns. Running a Wraithhost, walking them across the board most of them ended up dying to Bolter fire. That means you want to put them in Wave Serpants but a lot of armies have more than a few answers to bringing down a WS in a single turn. The other alternative is allying them with Dark Eldar for Raiders, which can have an excellent 3+ jink but also can be valnurable to a far wider range of weapons fire due to AV10 and are much easier to get the one-shot against being open topped, or an Archon/Haemonculus/Succubus with Web Way Portal for no scatter Deep Strike. This is frankly more of a problem with Craftworlds and DE being BB's instead of Allies of Convenience which would make more sense. However in this case the IoM is just as guilty, if not more so, of allied super deathstars.
Personally I'd like to see a points increas to 40ppm with an extra wound and reduce the Wraithcannon and D-Scythe back to their old profile. They'd still be very nasty, but a bit more expensive and more durable so that they could be more than a one and done unit.
Or Eldar players could be really friendly and just run massed Wraithblades and consign themselves to never winning another game.
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Post by: Martel732
You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?
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Post by: Experiment 626
Martel732 wrote:You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?
No, you can't.
92798
Post by: Traditio
Experiment wrote:When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.
Right off hand, it's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a 3 wound model to a 1 wound model.
At any rate, what do you think is a fair points cost for the wraithguard without d-scythe? With d-scythe?
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Martel732 wrote:You could take random eldar units and table the dirtiest ork, ba, or csm list you can think of. How is that not op across the board?
Not at all. For instance, blood Angels have some of the strongest marines out of any marine faction and usually gets all the new toys first. How is their power house effect fair to other marines?
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Post by: Martel732
What do those lists have access to that doesn't mulched by any random eldar unit? Even guardians get bladestorm.
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Post by: Traditio
I agree that fire dragons need a mild points increase.
That said,why you think they are OP?
They're about as hard to kill as a tyranid Mc.
No, they aren't. They only have 1 wound. They get vaporized by krak missiles.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Any infantry unit that's capable of slaying any potential unit in the game in a single round of fire at minimum size has balance issues.
Are they impossible to stop? No. But they were already considered fine with S4 AP2 flamers or S10 guns, the absurd upgrade to Strength D was simply insane and is absolutely broken.
Same thing with Fire Dragons. Nobody thought they were undergunned or overcosted before, getting the additional +1 on the damage chart on top of AP1, and then formations to make them BS5 was completely unwarranted and makes them way too reliable.
The whole book is filled with these kinds of buffs that make Eldar units just that much better than any possible equivalent in other army books, for no appreciable downside.
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Post by: pm713
Martel732 wrote:
What do those lists have access to that doesn't mulched by any random eldar unit? Even guardians get bladestorm.
They also have the honour of being killed by bolters.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Traditio wrote:Experiment wrote:When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.
Right off hand, it's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a 3 wound model to a 1 wound model.
At any rate, what do you think is a fair points cost for the wraithguard without d-scythe? With d-scythe?
I said, closest, 'like' unit.
T4/W3/5++ is roughly on par in terms of overall survivability to T6/3+, unless you hit the T4 model with S8+. (which honestly, isn't nearly the big threat anymore, as high RoF S6/7 is the new hotness)
Hence why Exalted Flamers are the closest unit-to-unit comparison Chaos has to Wraithguard.
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Post by: Martel732
pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:
What do those lists have access to that doesn't mulched by any random eldar unit? Even guardians get bladestorm.
They also have the honour of being killed by bolters.
That hard counters me then, because i bring as few bolters as possible.
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Post by: Traditio
Experiment 626 wrote:Traditio wrote:Experiment wrote:When it comes to Chaos, you're better off comparing them to Daemons, at which point, the closest 'like' unit would be the Exalted Flamer.
For those who don't know, he's 50pts, for a T4/W3 & 5++ re-rolling 1's. He can choose between a Torrent template that's S5/ap3 OR a D3 shots S9/ap2 @ BS4.
Right off hand, it's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a 3 wound model to a 1 wound model.
At any rate, what do you think is a fair points cost for the wraithguard without d-scythe? With d-scythe?
I said, closest, 'like' unit.
T4/W3/5++ is roughly on par in terms of overall survivability to T6/3+, unless you hit the T4 model with S8+. (which honestly, isn't nearly the big threat anymore, as high RoF S6/7 is the new hotness)
Hence why Exalted Flamers are the closest unit-to-unit comparison Chaos has to Wraithguard.
So what do you think is an appropriate points cost?
90435
Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Imateria wrote:Like everyone else I agree that Wraithknights, Wind Riders and Warp Spiders are all undercosted by some way. Wraitguard however are in an unusual position.
There best use, IMO, is as an anti-Deathstar/GMC/Supe Heavy unit, though Fire Dragons are even better against the Super Heavies. Frankly in my experience being T6 with a 3+ and 1W makes them surprisingly fragile, most other units in the game that are in the T5/6 range tend to have mutliple wounds and access to things like Feel no Pain or invulns. Running a Wraithhost, walking them across the board most of them ended up dying to Bolter fire. That means you want to put them in Wave Serpants but a lot of armies have more than a few answers to bringing down a WS in a single turn. The other alternative is allying them with Dark Eldar for Raiders, which can have an excellent 3+ jink but also can be valnurable to a far wider range of weapons fire due to AV10 and are much easier to get the one-shot against being open topped, or an Archon/Haemonculus/Succubus with Web Way Portal for no scatter Deep Strike. This is frankly more of a problem with Craftworlds and DE being BB's instead of Allies of Convenience which would make more sense. However in this case the IoM is just as guilty, if not more so, of allied super deathstars.
Personally I'd like to see a points increas to 40ppm with an extra wound and reduce the Wraithcannon and D-Scythe back to their old profile. They'd still be very nasty, but a bit more expensive and more durable so that they could be more than a one and done unit.
Or Eldar players could be really friendly and just run massed Wraithblades and consign themselves to never winning another game.
Fire Dragons are absolutely NOT better than Wraithguard when dealing with SHV/GMCs.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Martel732 wrote:pm713 wrote:Martel732 wrote:
What do those lists have access to that doesn't mulched by any random eldar unit? Even guardians get bladestorm.
They also have the honour of being killed by bolters.
That hard counters me then, because i bring as few bolters as possible.
I noticed you're ignoring the OPness I pointed out for armies such as blood Angels.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Traditio wrote:
Let's say I only killed 1. So what? The loss of a single model represents the loss of 42 points worth of a model to my 29 point tactical marine. At range.
No, you didn't kill that model with a 29 point marine - you killed him with a whole squad while the rest of the squad did nothing.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.
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Post by: Traditio
Scott-S6 wrote:Traditio wrote:
Let's say I only killed 1. So what? The loss of a single model represents the loss of 42 points worth of a model to my 29 point tactical marine. At range.
No, you didn't kill that model with a 29 point marine - you killed him with a whole squad while the rest of the squad did nothing.
A 5 man tactical squad with a plasma cannon is an 85 point unit. Kill 2 wraithguard with d-scythes, and I've basically made the points back.
In a gladius strikeforce (because of combat doctrines), there's a very strong possibility of that happening.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Traditio wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:Traditio wrote:
Let's say I only killed 1. So what? The loss of a single model represents the loss of 42 points worth of a model to my 29 point tactical marine. At range.
No, you didn't kill that model with a 29 point marine - you killed him with a whole squad while the rest of the squad did nothing.
A 5 man tactical squad with a plasma cannon is an 85 point unit. Kill 2 wraithguard with d-scythes, and I've basically made the points back.
In a gladius strikeforce (because of combat doctrines), there's a very strong possibility of that happening.
The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in
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Post by: Traditio
Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in
As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.
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Post by: Tactical_Spam
Traditio wrote:Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in
As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.
They aren't as broken as you think.
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Post by: pm713
Tactical_Spam wrote:Traditio wrote:Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in
As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.
They aren't as broken as you think.
I'd say it's more some combinations are OP but most end up ok e.g. Wolves and Eldar.
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Post by: Tactical_Spam
pm713 wrote: Tactical_Spam wrote:Traditio wrote:Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in
As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.
They aren't as broken as you think.
I'd say it's more some combinations are OP but most end up ok e.g. Wolves and Eldar.
When people say "The Armies of the Imperium are OP because of Allies" they really mean "I hate Thunderwolves." There should have been some 2 detachment limit or something... like ITC was going to do.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Traditio wrote:Pain4Pleasure wrote:The only thing is you wouldn't be able to do that until 1) turn 2 after I've deep struck and destroyed something worth more points than even they are worth or 2) blew up my raider or serpent, whichever I decided to ride them in
As I said: I'm fully willing to admit that current allies rules are OP and broken.
Wraithguard are stupid even without Raiders or WWP. Serpents are durable enough to get them where needed.
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Post by: pm713
Serpents cost a fortune and then get in the way of templates if you use scythes. They aren't THAT bad.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
That's assuming you're using Scythes. Stock, Wraithguard are stupid. With Scythes, Wraithguard are stupid. You're basically asking yourself if you want more accuracy for a shorter range. Both weapons are just THAT good.
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Post by: Vaktathi
cosmicsoybean wrote:To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.
Hrm, that's what everyone was saying at the beginning of 7th with the "great toning down" that the 2014 books all got. Then GW reversed course, as they always do every 12-24 months. The whole "wait for your update" thing has never borne out properly in any edition.
Even relative to the other 7E armies, Eldar are placing at most tournaments in larger proportion than their contemporaries.
And deliver value every bit equal to their cost
and then get in the way of templates if you use scythes.
That's a simple matter of positioning, not hard at all to work around.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Vaktathi wrote: cosmicsoybean wrote:To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.
Hrm, that's what everyone was saying at the beginning of 7th with the "great toning down" that the 2014 books all got. Then GW reversed course, as they always do every 12-24 months. The whole "wait for your update" thing has never borne out properly in any edition.
Even relative to the other 7E armies, Eldar are placing at most tournaments in larger proportion than their contemporaries.
And late 2015/early 2016 appears to be the "who cares about codex updates? campaigns & lazy rush jobs are good enough!" style of rules writing...
Look at Guard & Orks - their 'curion detachments are ridiculous in terms of their basic requirements, and both really have a totally phoned-in feel to them.
Daemons at least got a frankly god-tier level of basic detachment bonuses - right up their with Necrons in terms their OP'ness. Their formations however are overall average to poor to downright OMG!Useless!lolz!.
So overall, the Daemonic Incursion works out to be overall balanced, since while the benefits are outstanding, the 'Tax' one has to pay is very real, though not completely absurd in the manner of Orks/Guard.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
Vaktathi wrote: cosmicsoybean wrote:To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.
Hrm, that's what everyone was saying at the beginning of 7th with the "great toning down" that the 2014 books all got. Then GW reversed course, as they always do every 12-24 months. The whole "wait for your update" thing has never borne out properly in any edition.
Even relative to the other 7E armies, Eldar are placing at most tournaments in larger proportion than their contemporaries.
.
Well so far every 7.5 codex has been godtier. Spess mureens now are fighting for #1 spot, eldar, tau, necrons are all way up there, space wolfs are up there now too, daemons......
GW is pushing the OP codex stream to sell models, which is working quite well for them. And of course they are still placing high, everyone brings them in, so there are more players doing well with them.
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Post by: SemperMortis
Imateria wrote:Like everyone else I agree that Wraithknights, Wind Riders and Warp Spiders are all undercosted by some way. Wraitguard however are in an unusual position.
There best use, IMO, is as an anti-Deathstar/GMC/Supe Heavy unit, though Fire Dragons are even better against the Super Heavies. Frankly in my experience being T6 with a 3+ and 1W makes them surprisingly fragile, most other units in the game that are in the T5/6 range tend to have mutliple wounds and access to things like Feel no Pain or invulns. Running a Wraithhost, walking them across the board most of them ended up dying to Bolter fire. That means you want to put them in Wave Serpants but a lot of armies have more than a few answers to bringing down a WS in a single turn. The other alternative is allying them with Dark Eldar for Raiders, which can have an excellent 3+ jink but also can be valnurable to a far wider range of weapons fire due to AV10 and are much easier to get the one-shot against being open topped, or an Archon/Haemonculus/Succubus with Web Way Portal for no scatter Deep Strike. This is frankly more of a problem with Craftworlds and DE being BB's instead of Allies of Convenience which would make more sense. However in this case the IoM is just as guilty, if not more so, of allied super deathstars.
Personally I'd like to see a points increas to 40ppm with an extra wound and reduce the Wraithcannon and D-Scythe back to their old profile. They'd still be very nasty, but a bit more expensive and more durable so that they could be more than a one and done unit.
Or Eldar players could be really friendly and just run massed Wraithblades and consign themselves to never winning another game.
Running a Wraithhost, walking them across the board most of them ended up dying to Bolter fire.
So your T6 models with a 3+ armor save are scared of a S4 Ap5 rapid fire bolter? Lets do some math hammer on how stupid that is. 25 Space Marines double tap a unit of Wraith Guard at BS4. Thats 50 shots and 32hits of those 32 hits thats 5 wounds (takes a 6 to wound) of those 5 wounds you are likely to fail 1 maybe 2 at most going by statistics. So your afraid of bolter fire while running a Wraith Host? Either your doing it wrong or your full of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: cosmicsoybean wrote:To sum it up;
Eldar are very strong, no doubt. Versus 7.0 codex or older they are ridiculous strong. BUT compaired to 7.5 codex they are pretty balanced. So while eldar may be strong now, wait till everyone gets their formations updates and this will be more balanced.
Sorry I hate to contradict you again, but I got my 7.5 update, I even had my 7.0 codex before that. And guess what? nothing in my update puts me even remotely close to the level of Eldar Shenanigans.
But im sure I just don't know how to play my army because I need to L2P, so please tell me how I could turn the Ork Waaagh supplement into a list to beat the average Eldar list.
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Post by: kburn
So you're unhappy that a model with very strong survivability and the ultimate weapon costs "a lot"? You're also unhappy they got wiped out by a weapon that was specifically designed just to kill troops like them, especially if they are positioned badly?
Let's not kid ourselves. In a marine army, this will cost 60 points minimum, and in a tyranid army, it would be more to the tune of 250 points. Just compare a WG to a terminator, for 8 more points, you get an increased save, much worse toughness, and infinitely worse weapons.
Wraithguard needs to triple or quadruple their points to be considered merely "very strong" and not outright OP. I'd personally price them around 150pts to even be remotely fair to other armies. You get a troop which is extremely resilient, with the ultimate gun, that can be transported extremely well in an army with the ultimate mobility. How on earth does anyone price them at 32pp is beyond me.
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Post by: LinkXx
Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
LinkXx wrote:Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.
Agreed. Stomp and feel no pain make him under costed. If he was not a gc I would say his points are fine, even if he still had all the D
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Post by: Traditio
Pain4Pleasure wrote:Agreed. Stomp and feel no pain make him under costed. If he was not a gc I would say his points are fine, even if he still had all the D
It's not just stomp and feel no pain. It's also the fact that sniper rounds and poison only hurt him on 6s.
But yes, I agree, 300 points would probably be about right if he weren't a GMC.
He should cost 300 instead of 295, though...simply because it's a nice round number.
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Post by: Grumblewartz
People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.
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Post by: Traditio
Grumblewartz wrote:People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.
Webway portals + wraithguard isn't evidence that wraithguard, considered in and of themselves, are OP.
Even if the combination is OP, the constituents of that combination need not be OP.
And Grumblewartz, if you don't like my threads, you are more than welcome to avoid them.
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Post by: Azreal13
Grumblewartz wrote:People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.
Reposting for effect.
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Post by: Traditio
There have been roughly three arguments in this thread to "show" that wraithguard are OP: 1. They are undercosted relative to similar units (which aren't actually that similar, when you really think about it). 2.They do ridiculous amounts of damage when combined with [insert something that's not even in the Eldar codex]. 3. They are infantry with d-weapons [never mind their range and lack of mobility] (hardly a convincing argument). When I asked how wraithguard actually do on the table top, one of the two people who actually bothered answering basically said that the possibilities range from: 1. "HE KILLED MY OP DEATH STAR OF DEATH!* WAAAAAH." to 2. "I run cheap MSU. He didn't even make a hundred points back before I killed his vacuum cleaners." *Which I shouldn't have brought to the table in the first place if I was at all concerned about units being OP; in all fairness, I've revoked my right to complain.
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Post by: SemperMortis
Grumblewartz wrote:People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.
This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.
Anyway, onto this response
Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.
They do have maneuverability issues, because they are infantry not bikes or vehicles or flyers. So that is kind of common sense, not really a downside.
Survive ability? They are T6 with a 3+ armor save, they are extremely survivable except against above average guns. The basic weapon in this game is still a S4 weapon (IE Shootas, Bolters and such) Those weapons only wound on 6s. Tau firewarriors can wound on 5s which is a bit better.
As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
It doesn't matter if they're weak to MSU, because Scatterbikes can kill anything else.
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Post by: Traditio
SemperMortis wrote:This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.
Except, I didn't say anything of the sort.
I've "denied" the arguments listed above for the following reasons:
1. Because those "similar" units aren't really similar enough to count.
2. Because a consideration of A + B is not a consideration of A alone and by itself.
3. Because it's not really an argument in the first place. "They have d-weapons!" So what?
That said, if you have further arguments, I would be more than willing to address them.
As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.
"Better off"? In what respect? My sternguard are 10 points cheaper than wraithguard without d-scythes and have up to 18 additional inches of range.
Terminators have 5+ invulns and the ability to deepstrike, as well as power fists and stormbolters.
Meganobs are highly effective in close combat.
The simple fact is that all of these comparisons are doomed to fail because there's too many differences between the things being compared.
The best way to assess whether or not they are OP is to look at how they do on the table top.
You've mentioned one case where you've actually played them, and fact is, you made a strategic error. Instead of charging the wraithguard (which is what orks are good at), you chose to try to shoot them off the table. With orks.
Because, for some reason, you didn't want your boys to die. Because every ork life is precious, apparently.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It doesn't matter if they're weak to MSU, because Scatterbikes can kill anything else.
Yes. I completely agree with this.
But that's an argument for scatter bikes being OP, not wraithguard.
When you play against a competitive eldar list, EVERYTHING looks OP, because the Eldar have lots of OP cheese to play with, and even the stuff that isn't OP synergizes really well with the cheese. It's an army of specialists.
But when we are considering whether a given UNIT or MODEL is OP, we can't look at Eldar as a whole. We have to look at that unit considered by itself.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
And I would take that unit in a heartbeat over any Sternguard with a Combi-Weapon.
I'm pretty sure if anyone had the option to switch out those stats and equipment, they would.
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Post by: Traditio
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And I would take that unit in a heartbeat over any Sternguard with a Combi-Weapon.
I'm pretty sure if anyone had the option to switch out those stats and equipment, they would.
Ok. You play marines, right?
Let's suppose you were offered a deal:
All of your long range options in the codex are gone. No missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons, etc. for you. But you can take wraithguard now.
No wave serpents, even. Just wraithguard. You can stick them in rhinos.
You taking that deal?
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Post by: Swampmist
I wouldn't, but only because marines don't have good models to carry the unit (Drop Pods leave them vulnerable, rhinoes aren't fast enough, can't fit in razorbacks, LRs are too expensive) and marines don't have the MSU counters that eldar do, which is the main weakness with wraithguard.
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Post by: Grief
tradito can you please be honest with yourself? Eldar is very over powered.
You want to talk how well they do on the table top? just watch any battle report with them in it. Most likey they win. They may lose some here and their but i dont even have to use statistics to prove how over powered Eldar are.
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Post by: Traditio
Grief wrote:tradito can you please be honest with yourself? Eldar is very over powered.
You want to talk how well they do on the table top? just watch any battle report with them in it. Most likey they win. They may lose some here and their but i dont even have to use statistics to prove how over powered Eldar are.
Grief: my comments are not about Eldar in general. My comments are specifically about wraithguard. Not about wraithguard + scatter bikes + wraithknights. Not about wraithguard + dark eldar.
Just wraithguard. Automatically Appended Next Post: Swampmist wrote:I wouldn't, but only because marines don't have good models to carry the unit (Drop Pods leave them vulnerable, rhinoes aren't fast enough, can't fit in razorbacks, LRs are too expensive) and marines don't have the MSU counters that eldar do, which is the main weakness with wraithguard.
Yes. Consider the following thought experiment:
Tomorrow, GW releases a new codex. Windrider bikes are an additional 5 ppm and can only take 1 heavy weapon per 3 bikes.
Wraithknights now cost 450 ppm without upgrades.
Wraithguard, and everything else, are left exactly as they are.
Furthermore, 8th edition comes out tomorrow. Everything is the same, except allies aren't allowed.
How much complaining about wraithguard do you think there would be after that?
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Traditio wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And I would take that unit in a heartbeat over any Sternguard with a Combi-Weapon.
I'm pretty sure if anyone had the option to switch out those stats and equipment, they would.
Ok. You play marines, right?
Let's suppose you were offered a deal:
All of your long range options in the codex are gone. No missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons, etc. for you. But you can take wraithguard now.
No wave serpents, even. Just wraithguard. You can stick them in rhinos.
You taking that deal?
Seeing as Lascannons. Plasma Cannons, and Missile Launchers are all terrible, I'm gladly taking that deal.
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Post by: Traditio
Slayer-Fan wrote:Seeing as Lascannons. Plasma Cannons, and Missile Launchers are all terrible, I'm gladly taking that deal.
You'd take wraithguard cruising around in rhinos over devastators or centurion devastators with heavy weapons?
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Post by: SemperMortis
Traditio wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And I would take that unit in a heartbeat over any Sternguard with a Combi-Weapon.
I'm pretty sure if anyone had the option to switch out those stats and equipment, they would.
Ok. You play marines, right?
Let's suppose you were offered a deal:
All of your long range options in the codex are gone. No missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons, etc. for you. But you can take wraithguard now.
No wave serpents, even. Just wraithguard. You can stick them in rhinos.
You taking that deal?
So give up all your armies abilities and weapons to swap a single unit for a single unit, that is kind of a fethed up deal. Another way to put it without being ridiculous would be Switch Wraithguard with Stern Guard. Eldar get sternguard now and Marines get Wraithguard. If I played Marines I would jump for joy.
Lets do the ork version of this, I would gladly trade Meganobz for WraithGuard. Done deal.
Ohh and lets address this nonsense while we are at it.
"Better off"? In what respect? My sternguard are 10 points cheaper than wraithguard without d-scythes and have up to 18 additional inches of range.
Terminators have 5+ invulns and the ability to deepstrike, as well as power fists and stormbolters.
Meganobs are highly effective in close combat.
The simple fact is that all of these comparisons are doomed to fail because there's too many differences between the things being compared.
The best way to assess whether or not they are OP is to look at how they do on the table top.
You've mentioned one case where you've actually played them, and fact is, you made a strategic error. Instead of charging the wraithguard (which is what orks are good at), you chose to try to shoot them off the table. With orks.
Because, for some reason, you didn't want your boys to die. Because every ork life is precious, apparently.
Sternguard are also -2T and can't kill a Superheavy in a single turn unless they all have meltas and get really luck rolls. And as far as range is concerned? Who cares? I will take a D strength flamer or single shot weapon over a S4 rapid fire bolter at 24inches any day of the week, this is a very poor argument.
Terminators have a 5++ Oooooo! And they have powerfists and stormbolters...again OoooOO! Stormbolters are just two bolters and they aren't any better for it. The only thing Terminators have going for them is the powerfist and then its meh because the Marines don't have a delivery system of any sort for those units. Trust Me, When I play against SM i get excited when I see those terminators come out, it means easy kill points.
Meganobz are "Highly Effective" in close combat? really? against who? The only units Meganobz are good at killing are units that aren't good at CC. Anytime they run into a Powerfist or equivalent they die horribly because they usually get doubled out. You want to talk about maneuverability/speed problems, talk about these guys, they can't even run or sweeping advance when they do win an assault. They are just Nobz in 2+ armor, not a big deal.
Comparisons aren't similar? Wraithguard go after highly valuable units and destroy them, Sternguard do the exact same thing, Meganobz do the exact same thing.
Well generally speaking I don't throw away models uselessly on the table for no benefit. Boyz on the charge are wounding Wraith Guard on 6s and only hitting on 4s. So if I charged with 10 boyz im going to get 5 D flamers hitting me with wall of death. so thats 10 wounds, boom the unit is dead. Good job.
I really don't see a point in throwing away a unit just to soak up over watch so that if by some miracle I have a 2nd unit close by they can assault it and maybe kill 2-3 models.
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Post by: kburn
Traditio wrote:
When you play against a competitive eldar list, EVERYTHING looks OP, because the Eldar have lots of OP cheese to play with, and even the stuff that isn't OP synergizes really well with the cheese. It's an army of specialists.
But when we are considering whether a given UNIT or MODEL is OP, we can't look at Eldar as a whole. We have to look at that unit considered by itself.
Completely and utterly false. Its an army of generalists whose abilities are so good that they are better than specialists of any other army. Just take a look at your humble scatbikes. They are best at movement, survival, shooting high AP, shooting low AP, shooting vehicles. Even your more "humble" units like warp spiders, they have the exact same advantages, very survivable, great movement, great at shooting both high and low AP, great at shooting vehicles. Fire dragons, again, extremely survivable, great at destroying low AP and vehicles. Wraithlords are great at shooting low AP, vehicles and assault. Extremely survivable, because its a MC, not a walker.
That eldar is a glass-cannon scapel is a myth which never has been true. If there's any way to describe them, they're the ultimate mary-sue army, great at everything with no downsides.
It is extremely silly not to consider a unit with the rest of the army. You're not going to use fire dragons without transports. You're not going to use tyranids without sypnapse creatures. Of course if a unit is OP because of synergy with its army is OP.
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Post by: Swampmist
Ok, so how do you point-balance based on synergy? Certainly they are somewhat under costed, but alone they are not overly so, even with a wave serpent.
Also, Eldar ARE a specialist army, though you are correct in that they are not glass cannons. Almost every model (Bar Scatbikes, Knights and BS5 spider spam) is good at one job. Every unit is a specialist, ergo an army of specialists. Swooping hawks are a rapid-response unit that can deal ok-damage on the drop and are good at killing vehicles, but have gakky guns for their cost and have no way to kill MCs, Fire Dragons are the ultimate melta-cide unit, Wraithguard are similar but are generally better against MCs in comparison, Banshees are a fast melee unit that tears through light infantry and are great for starting a charge, Striking Scorpions are a precision melee unit that kills a specific high-priority target, ect ect. The few super chedder generalist units do not make the rest any less specialized, just fill the gaps that those units create too easily.
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Post by: kburn
Swampmist wrote:Ok, so how do you point-balance based on synergy? Certainly they are somewhat under costed, but alone they are not overly so, even with a wave serpent.
Also, Eldar ARE a specialist army, though you are correct in that they are not glass cannons. Almost every model (Bar Scatbikes, Knights and BS5 spider spam) is good at one job. Every unit is a specialist, ergo an army of specialists. Swooping hawks are a rapid-response unit that can deal ok-damage on the drop and are good at killing vehicles, but have gakky guns for their cost and have no way to kill MCs, Fire Dragons are the ultimate melta-cide unit, Wraithguard are similar but are generally better against MCs in comparison, Banshees are a fast melee unit that tears through light infantry and are great for starting a charge, Striking Scorpions are a precision melee unit that kills a specific high-priority target, ect ect. The few super chedder generalist units do not make the rest any less specialized, just fill the gaps that those units create too easily.
Don't ask me how to point balance, ask GW. Doubling the points for everything in the eldar codex is a good starting point.
Eldar are a special-snowflake generalist army, that take extremely little finesse to play. Ignoring scatbikes and WK, the simple combination of warp spiders and fire dragons can deal with everything in the game. or wraithguards and swooping hawks, etc. No army in the entire game, other than eldar, can take 2 units, and hard-counter every single unit type in the game, along with being extremely resilient.
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
kburn wrote: Swampmist wrote:Ok, so how do you point-balance based on synergy? Certainly they are somewhat under costed, but alone they are not overly so, even with a wave serpent.
Also, Eldar ARE a specialist army, though you are correct in that they are not glass cannons. Almost every model (Bar Scatbikes, Knights and BS5 spider spam) is good at one job. Every unit is a specialist, ergo an army of specialists. Swooping hawks are a rapid-response unit that can deal ok-damage on the drop and are good at killing vehicles, but have gakky guns for their cost and have no way to kill MCs, Fire Dragons are the ultimate melta-cide unit, Wraithguard are similar but are generally better against MCs in comparison, Banshees are a fast melee unit that tears through light infantry and are great for starting a charge, Striking Scorpions are a precision melee unit that kills a specific high-priority target, ect ect. The few super chedder generalist units do not make the rest any less specialized, just fill the gaps that those units create too easily.
Don't ask me how to point balance, ask GW. Doubling the points for everything in the eldar codex is a good starting point.
Eldar are a special-snowflake generalist army, that take extremely little finesse to play. Ignoring scatbikes and WK, the simple combination of warp spiders and fire dragons can deal with everything in the game. or wraithguards and swooping hawks, etc. No army in the entire game, other than eldar, can take 2 units, and hard-counter every single unit type in the game, along with being extremely resilient.
Then those armies need 2 git gud.. Not joking don't blame eldar players, blame gw
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
kburn wrote:Ok, so how do you point-balance based on synergy? Certainly they are somewhat under costed, but alone they are not overly so, even with a wave serpent.
>Don't ask me how to point balance, ask GW.
> Doubling the points for everything in the eldar codex is a good starting point.
> No army in the entire game, other than eldar, can take 2 units, and hard-counter every single unit type in the game, along with being extremely resilient.
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Post by: LinkXx
SemperMortis wrote: Grumblewartz wrote:People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.
This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.
Anyway, onto this response
Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.
They do have maneuverability issues, because they are infantry not bikes or vehicles or flyers. So that is kind of common sense, not really a downside.
Survive ability? They are T6 with a 3+ armor save, they are extremely survivable except against above average guns. The basic weapon in this game is still a S4 weapon (IE Shootas, Bolters and such) Those weapons only wound on 6s. Tau firewarriors can wound on 5s which is a bit better.
As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.
The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being ' OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.
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Post by: SemperMortis
LinkXx wrote:SemperMortis wrote: Grumblewartz wrote:People should really stop buying into the OP's posts. Almost everyone of them is trolling using the same tired formula. He says X (unit/army/formation that is obviously at the very least quite powerful) isn't actually that great. Then he proceeds to ignore every rational response (Webway portals + wraitguard don't count because reasons, etc.) that calls him out on the ludicrous statement that began the post.
This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.
Anyway, onto this response
Wraithguard are definitely good, but not broken or overpowered. They hit like a truck as they should, but have maneuverability and surviveability issues you have to overcome for them to have any hopes of even making use of their weaponry. I've used them extensively. Wraith constructs are my favourite models and the only one that is OP is the Wraithknight. Not so much because the model itself, but more so because he is a gargantuan creature.
They do have maneuverability issues, because they are infantry not bikes or vehicles or flyers. So that is kind of common sense, not really a downside.
Survive ability? They are T6 with a 3+ armor save, they are extremely survivable except against above average guns. The basic weapon in this game is still a S4 weapon (IE Shootas, Bolters and such) Those weapons only wound on 6s. Tau firewarriors can wound on 5s which is a bit better.
As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.
The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being ' OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.
So because it isn't the top level of cheese it isn't OP? Your argument doesn't make any sense.
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Post by: Akiasura
Traditio wrote:SemperMortis wrote:This is rather true, Tradito tends to roll on topics like this and then deny any argument by saying they don't count because they don't fit his narrative. Kind of reminds me of a guy who used to troll this forum a lot, I am blanking on his name, but he was a rabid Eldar Supporter.
Except, I didn't say anything of the sort.
I've "denied" the arguments listed above for the following reasons:
1. Because those "similar" units aren't really similar enough to count.
Maybe you should define similar enough to count.
You'd be hard pressed to find an infantry unit that has a Str D flamer, especially one with a defensive stat line like Wraithguard. So if your requirements are strict, we aren't going to be able to compare anything here.
If you want a role (Transport requiring Short Ranged Shooty Unit) then there are many units we can compare it to, especially from marines (Sternguard being the obvious example). Which is why people are reaching for those units to compare.
Traditio wrote:
2. Because a consideration of A + B is not a consideration of A alone and by itself.
Technically this is true, but you never see Centurion Devs looked at in a vacuum. Without transports or a teleporter, they are pretty bad. With a Teleporter, they become one of the most OP units in the game, and can be ramped up from there pretty easily.
Are you going to suggest that Centurion Devs are a bad unit? You'll find that such an argument won't gain traction and flies in the face of most tournament lists and battle reports.
We can do this with several units. What is sternguard without pods or rhinos? What are fire dragons without a WS?
Units do not exist in a vacuum. This argument is pointless and synergies must be accounted for. By your metric, markerlights and psykers are mostly garbage, since we can only look at them and not how they interact with other units. Is that an argument you want to make?
Traditio wrote:
3. Because it's not really an argument in the first place. "They have d-weapons!" So what?
Look at the rules for D-weapons.
It gives a unit an ignores armor flame thrower that also is quite strong against tanks. They can point at any unit in the game and delete it, something only deathstars or cents can do normally. And cents are considered one of the best units in the game.
If guard had a guy who could teleport them and make them a bit tougher defensively, they would be the best unit in the game.
Traditio wrote:
That said, if you have further arguments, I would be more than willing to address them.
As far as those short falls, no infantry in the game (I mean infantry not troops, because Eldar have scat bike troops) is better off for a similar price, hell even the elites infantry in most armies can't compete. Terminators and meganobz are garbage in comparison.
"Better off"? In what respect? My sternguard are 10 points cheaper than wraithguard without d-scythes and have up to 18 additional inches of range.
Sternguard are much weaker defensively and also require a transport. Or they become very expensive bodies.
Sternguard are also not even close to applying the same level of damage that the WG can put down on the table. The additional range is only for the bolter, not for the melta which is what you need to target enemy tanks.
Seriously, compare sternguard against WG when shooting at TWC, Bikes, Cents, MCs, and Tanks. Make sure to keep the loadout the same.
You'll find WG outperform for the same points in nearly every situation, if only because flamers that ignore armor cause a ton of hits/wounds for the point cost.
Traditio wrote:
Terminators have 5+ invulns and the ability to deepstrike, as well as power fists and stormbolters.
Terminators are awful and have been for most of the game. Stormbolters are crap, powerfists are fine but they need a transport (and unlike a WG unit, a 200 point or greater transport that is relatively weak).
No, they aren't. MCs and many units that are good in CC ( TWC) just destroy them. They need a better save and some combos.
Charge Nobs into WG, the WG most likely destroy most of the unit before CC is reached. Remember, no additional units can be used because vacuum!
Traditio wrote:
The simple fact is that all of these comparisons are doomed to fail because there's too many differences between the things being compared.
Not really, you are just demanding an incredibly strict metric for unit comparisons that you haven't defended in any way.
Traditio wrote:
The best way to assess whether or not they are OP is to look at how they do on the table top.
WG do quite well on the TT. They aren't the best unit in the dex, but they are certainly quite strong. Its why they get complained about and, say, sternguard don't (anymore).
Also, please stop saying one Krak Missile destroys a WG.
It's a 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, possible 5+ cover save. It really takes 2 Krak missiles to destroy 1 WG, and that is vastly more points for a marine player to use. ML aren't even popular. A plasma cannon also will require about 2 shots to kill one unless your opponent doesn't know how to play this game.
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Post by: Mechanical Crow
LinkXx wrote:
The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being ' OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.
Shush you're ruining dakkas anti eldar narrative!
Seriously though, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen, if you cant deal with wraithguard you have massive problems with how you approach the game and fail at the most rudimentary of tactics. Dakkas ignorance is on display here and proof that most of these people either don't play the game or are utterly terrible at it.
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Post by: Akiasura
Mechanical Crow wrote:LinkXx wrote:
The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being ' OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.
Shush you're ruining dakkas anti eldar narrative!
Seriously though, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen, if you cant deal with wraithguard you have massive problems with how you approach the game and fail at the most rudimentary of tactics. Dakkas ignorance is on display here and proof that most of these people either don't play the game or are utterly terrible at it.
Really appreciate the detailed post where you clearly go into how to deal with wraithguard being deployed from a WWP, a open topped transport, or WS rather than insulting everyone else
That being said, to discuss the post you quoted and how it "destroys the narrative"...
Centurions on their own are slow. Are you saying centurions are a weak not OP unit? The poster did say that alone disqualifies them, and we can only assume he meant in a vacuum, since the transports available to the WG are quite fast, so let's not bring additional units into this unless you are willing to admit that WG speed isn't as big a deal as everyone is making it out to be.
As for the second part, a scat bike is a single model with a T4 3+ save. Are we to assume they also mean next to nothing?
Face it, the post you quoted lacks any of the nuance or discussion required to decide if a unit is OP. Even units like the Riptide and WK have several factors that add up to them being OP. Units like the cents, which require synergy with characters, require an even greater degree of discussion but are still quite OP. The gladius strike force, a very competitive list, looks abysmal if you compare it in a vacuum where one unit from that list is compared to a typical eldar unit. But we know that isn't the case.
I don't think anyone is saying that the WG are the best unit in the dex. We can all agree that Scatbikes, WK, and Spiders seem to be the best of the best. But in any list that can transport them effectively, WG would see a lot of use. I'd love them in my CSM list, and they don't even have great transport options.
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Post by: pm713
Mechanical Crow wrote:LinkXx wrote:
The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being ' OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.
Shush you're ruining dakkas anti eldar narrative!
Seriously though, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen, if you cant deal with wraithguard you have massive problems with how you approach the game and fail at the most rudimentary of tactics. Dakkas ignorance is on display here and proof that most of these people either don't play the game or are utterly terrible at it.
How do you stop no scatter DS then?
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
Mechanical Crow wrote:LinkXx wrote:
The fact alone that they are slow, instantly disqualifies them from being ' OP'. Also a single wound T6 3+ model means next to nothing nowadays.
Shush you're ruining dakkas anti eldar narrative!
Seriously though, this is the saddest thread I've ever seen, if you cant deal with wraithguard you have massive problems with how you approach the game and fail at the most rudimentary of tactics. Dakkas ignorance is on display here and proof that most of these people either don't play the game or are utterly terrible at it.
I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)
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Post by: Traditio
cosmicsoybean wrote:I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)
What new toys? The librarius powers which imperfectly mimic what Eldar already have?
Or are you talking about the "limit one per army" 30th anniversary space marine with an 18 inch range gets hot gun?
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Post by: Grimskul
Traditio wrote:cosmicsoybean wrote:I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)
What new toys? The librarius powers which imperfectly mimic what Eldar already have?
Or are you talking about the "limit one per army" 30th anniversary space marine with an 18 inch range gets hot gun?
Have you not seen the geokinesis and fulmination disciplines? Where via the Librarius Conclave you can have a pretty damn good chance (if not guaranteed with Tigurius) of getting a T1 charge against an enemy by moving units in terrain 24" anywhere they want? Or the "CHANGE PLACES!" psychic power from fulmination? For a SM fanboy, you don't know your stuff very well.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
Traditio wrote:cosmicsoybean wrote:I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)
What new toys? The librarius powers which imperfectly mimic what Eldar already have?
Or are you talking about the "limit one per army" 30th anniversary space marine with an 18 inch range gets hot gun?
I don't know of any powers that the eldar have that let them move terrain, objectives, and units, teleport units 24", even in CC, let eldar buff their vehicles and buildings to/past av15, allow any unit to fire at people THEY CANT EVEN SEE, ability to nullify enemy mages completely, 4++ inv bubble of 12 inches... to name a few. That along with the 200+ products and 200+ forgeworld products they get compaired to any other faction.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Is there an Eldar player REALLY complaining about how much easier it got to charge their special snowflake Warp Spiders and Scatterbikes?
Based off an oddly specific power?
Whatever.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Is there an Eldar player REALLY complaining about how much easier it got to charge their special snowflake Warp Spiders and Scatterbikes?
Based off an oddly specific power?
Whatever.
Rerollable 2+ armour on eldar: OMG fething BROKEN ELDAR SO OP OMG!!!!!!!!!
Rerollable 2++ on marines: Perfectly okay, this is balanced!
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Post by: Martel732
It's an interesting situation, because marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable. 2+ rerollable is a legitimate defense against scatterbikes, as no other saves will do.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
Martel732 wrote:
>marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable.
You're doing it wrong. grav cent pod towards jetbikes, destroy, pair that with their new phy powers and they dont worry about cover or worrying about retaliation.
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Post by: niv-mizzet
cosmicsoybean wrote:Martel732 wrote:
>marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable.
You're doing it wrong. grav cent pod towards jetbikes, destroy, pair that with their new phy powers and they dont worry about cover or worrying about retaliation.
A couple hundred points of cents plus libby and a pod to kill 81 points of scatbikes? There's someone doing something wrong here, but I don't think it's him.
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Post by: GreyCrow
Traditio wrote:
Ok. You play marines, right?
Let's suppose you were offered a deal:
All of your long range options in the codex are gone. No missile launchers, plasma cannons, lascannons, etc. for you. But you can take wraithguard now.
No wave serpents, even. Just wraithguard. You can stick them in rhinos.
You taking that deal?
I play Marines and I would definitely take that chance. The Marines heavy weapons suck compared to Grav Cannons because in this edition the number of shots and the moiblity is much better than range/strength (unless it's strength D because it has the ability to throw multiple wounds per single shot, up to 12 wounds on a hot roll), and Grav Cannons suck compared to D-Scythes, even with -1 on the D table.
I'll just stick them in a Land Raider or Stormraven and call it a day. I would even take 80 points Terminators if they had a D-Scythe instead of their Power Fist.
If you think losing the Missile Launchers is not worth it compared to gaining access to D-1, Ignores Cover, AP2 on a Template weapon, I'm not sure we're playing the same game.
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Post by: Akiasura
To be fair, Cents have split fire. It's more like a 81*2 to 162, and that is clearly a worse case scenario.
I haven't reviewed the new psyker powers so I can't comment on their power levels.
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Post by: Experiment 626
niv-mizzet wrote: cosmicsoybean wrote:Martel732 wrote:
>marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable.
You're doing it wrong. grav cent pod towards jetbikes, destroy, pair that with their new phy powers and they dont worry about cover or worrying about retaliation.
A couple hundred points of cents plus libby and a pod to kill 81 points of scatbikes? There's someone doing something wrong here, but I don't think it's him.
It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.
And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".
(note: as a tzeentch daemon player, I still firmly believe that 2+ re-rolled saves are sheer stupidity. nothing should ever get rules to make it effectively immortal!  )
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Post by: Martel732
It's a huge deal for lists without D-cannons, d-scythes, and Str D HTH weapons. Oh wait.... The marine powers are catastrophic for Orks and Dark Eldar, but Eldar have no room to complain about what gets shoveled their way.
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Post by: jreilly89
Experiment 626 wrote: niv-mizzet wrote: cosmicsoybean wrote:Martel732 wrote:
>marines can't even force enough saves to make Eldar need 2+ rerollable.
You're doing it wrong. grav cent pod towards jetbikes, destroy, pair that with their new phy powers and they dont worry about cover or worrying about retaliation.
A couple hundred points of cents plus libby and a pod to kill 81 points of scatbikes? There's someone doing something wrong here, but I don't think it's him.
It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.
And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".
(note: as a tzeentch daemon player, I still firmly believe that 2+ re-rolled saves are sheer stupidity. nothing should ever get rules to make it effectively immortal!  )
I think no one cares about SM getting the re-rolls due to the recent ITC nerfings. We've had 2+ rerollables for awhile now thanks to the stupid RW rules (as a DA player I hate them more because that's the only reason people even play DA now), but the ITC nerfed them almost as soon as they came out.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Martel732 wrote:It's a huge deal for lists without D-cannons, d-scythes, and Str D HTH weapons. Oh wait.... The marine powers are catastrophic for Orks and Dark Eldar, but Eldar have no room to complain about what gets shoveled their way.
Except for every single Eldar army that hasn't loaded up on lots and lots of Wraith units...
Chaos however are the most boned by the new marine rules though, because apparently Daemons really needed a swift kick to the junk.
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Post by: Traditio
Akiasura wrote:Maybe you should define similar enough to count.
Right off hand, I really don't know the answer to that. Again, let's consider what a wraithguard is:
It's a T6 infantry with otherwise space marines stats and saves (except S 5 instead of 4) with what is, for all intents and purposes, an extremely short range auto kill gun.
There's nothing else that's really like it in the game.
You'd be hard pressed to find an infantry unit that has a Str D flamer, especially one with a defensive stat line like Wraithguard. So if your requirements are strict, we aren't going to be able to compare anything here.
Yes. The wraithguard is kind of a "snowflake" unit in 40k. It's very different from other things in the game.
If I were absolutely forced to compare it to something else, it would be grav centurions, but even there, the comparison just falls short. Grav centurions are 2+ armor save, T 5 and 2 wounds, not to mention that the grav cannon has much longer range.
Again, the only delivery method in the Eldar codex for wraithguard is a wave serpent. Grav centurions? Not so much.
If you want that comparison, a grav centurion is 80 ppm. But that also includes a hurricane bolter (which can be upgraded to a missile launcher).
Would you consider wraithguard better or worse than grav centurions?
Technically this is true, but you never see Centurion Devs looked at in a vacuum. Without transports or a teleporter, they are pretty bad. With a Teleporter, they become one of the most OP units in the game, and can be ramped up from there pretty easily.
Are you going to suggest that Centurion Devs are a bad unit?
No. I'd simply assert that Centurion devastators aren't OP. Centurion devastators + some force multiplier or delivery system is OP.
By your metric, markerlights and psykers are mostly garbage, since we can only look at them and not how they interact with other units. Is that an argument you want to make?
Markerlights and psykers, for the most part, are force multipliers by design. As such, their utility can be considered only relatively to other things.
Centurions and wraithguard? Not so much.
At any rate, I think that the first point (i.e., the comparison to grav centurions) is sufficient for the current conversation. I omit most of the remainder of your reply, since it's mostly involved with quibbling over comparisons with various units.
Also, please stop saying one Krak Missile destroys a WG.
It's a 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, possible 5+ cover save. It really takes 2 Krak missiles to destroy 1 WG, and that is vastly more points for a marine player to use. ML aren't even popular. A plasma cannon also will require about 2 shots to kill one unless your opponent doesn't know how to play this game.
One successful wound from a krak missile destroys a WG. That is a fact.
And actually, the chances are much better than you make out. If I am using devastator or tactical doctrine, I have the opportunity to reroll misses with that krak missile. And I'm wounding on 2s.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Experiment 626 wrote:
It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.
And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".
I love how in every case with you it always somehow ends up being that ONLY Marines are powergamers.
So because a person bought Grav-Cents(why would you put Lascannons or Heavy Bolters on them? In this edition, you might as well just throw capguns on them if you want them for MC hunting) and then either fielded an Allied Detachment of some kind OR is running a CAD to begin with(the only two ways for Grav-Cents to get Drop Pods, fyi. Their DT options are LRs or LRCs), they're committing some kind of powergaming sin?
I bet you complain when someone puts Devastators down with Grav-Cannons too.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
Experiment 626 wrote:.
And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git gud
A thousand times this. It's amazing how blinded they are because they have thousands upon thousands of similar minded people backing them. 2+ even 3+ rerollable are bs.
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Post by: Traditio
cosmicsoybean wrote:A thousand times this. It's amazing how blinded they are because they have thousands upon thousands of similar minded people backing them. 2+ even 3+ rerollable are bs.
I completely agree.
Rerollable saves need to die. Period.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
Lets have a look at them from a None-Marine stand point. I play Dark Eldar, specifically Coven Dark Eldar with Harlequin allies. In a game against Wraithguard my Corpse Theif Claw is a liability, I have to put everything I have into ensuring those Wraithguard don't fire, not even once. That isn't easy, haywire scourges can reliably glance but 4+ jink save means I need to dedicate at least 2 of my 3 Scourge units to that single Wave Serpent to reliably crack it open. Then I need to pour enough splinter rounds into them that they fall down.
I have the options to take the Wraithguard down, but it seems like I have to do so much more work then the Eldar player does. If he gets to fire he will likely kill 2-3 Talosi in a single volly, if i dedicate the a large proportion of my army into taking them down I only succeed in saving my Talosi. How OP they are I don't think I'm allowed an opinion on, there is a sort of 'New codex elitism' that dictates I don't get a say because my army sucks, but i feel they are VERY badly designed. Autokill guns, fast durable transports and not a bad area denial (18'' in all directions) seems to suck a lot of the nuance and skill out of how Eldar used to play.
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Post by: Akiasura
Traditio wrote:Akiasura wrote:Maybe you should define similar enough to count.
Right off hand, I really don't know the answer to that. Again, let's consider what a wraithguard is:
So right away, you are dismissing what everyone else is doing by comparing units in a similar role without being able to provide some metric of your own we all can follow?
This is bad form.
Traditio wrote:
It's a T6 infantry with otherwise space marines stats and saves (except S 5 instead of 4) with what is, for all intents and purposes, an extremely short range auto kill gun.
There's nothing else that's really like it in the game.
There are few units that are relatively short ranged, needs a delivery system, but delete pretty much every unit they come in contact with.
You name one later on actually.
Traditio wrote:
You'd be hard pressed to find an infantry unit that has a Str D flamer, especially one with a defensive stat line like Wraithguard. So if your requirements are strict, we aren't going to be able to compare anything here.
Yes. The wraithguard is kind of a "snowflake" unit in 40k. It's very different from other things in the game.
If I were absolutely forced to compare it to something else, it would be grav centurions, but even there, the comparison just falls short. Grav centurions are 2+ armor save, T 5 and 2 wounds, not to mention that the grav cannon has much longer range.
True, it's about two times as expensive as well so per wound it's about the same. Cents are a little tougher against the majority of weapons however.
Traditio wrote:
Again, the only delivery method in the Eldar codex for wraithguard is a wave serpent. Grav centurions? Not so much.
This is a useless limitation and is a big moving of the goalposts from you.
For one, you can freely use other transports or delivery systems from other dexes with the Eldar Army currently. I may not like it, but its certainly legal
And two, you were just claiming a little while ago that we must only look at a unit in a vacuum. Suddenly we can add some synergy to the Cents, but we have to limit what we can add to the WG?
This is absurd. You look at the way that the unit is currently taken in its entirety. Sometimes this is hard (how do you quantify markerlights for tau per unit?) but for a transport for one unit? Its remarkably simple
Traditio wrote:
If you want that comparison, a grav centurion is 80 ppm. But that also includes a hurricane bolter (which can be upgraded to a missile launcher).
Would you consider wraithguard better or worse than grav centurions?
In a vacuum no nothing? Probably both are equally useless with the wraithguard being better since they can't be charged effectively.
With just transports but no other buffs? Probably WG, since they can move around and possibly delete 2-3 units over the course of the game and are much cheaper. The cents will get 2-3 units but cost much more.
With all synergies on the table? Cents. No question.
Of course only talking about the last one is worth anything. However, Cents are one of, if not the, best unit in the game. Are we going to say every GMC that isn't the WK is not strong just because the WK stands head and shoulders above them all?
Traditio wrote:
Technically this is true, but you never see Centurion Devs looked at in a vacuum. Without transports or a teleporter, they are pretty bad. With a Teleporter, they become one of the most OP units in the game, and can be ramped up from there pretty easily.
Are you going to suggest that Centurion Devs are a bad unit?
No. I'd simply assert that Centurion devastators aren't OP. Centurion devastators + some force multiplier or delivery system is OP.
And what possible purpose would such a claim make other than being technically correct?
It doesn't reflect the game state or average game featuring Cents at all. It's useless. You discuss cents in the way they are commonly taken, not in some made up scenario or vacuum test, especially if we are discussing if a unit is OP
Traditio wrote:
By your metric, markerlights and psykers are mostly garbage, since we can only look at them and not how they interact with other units. Is that an argument you want to make?
Markerlights and psykers, for the most part, are force multipliers by design. As such, their utility can be considered only relatively to other things.
Are transports and delivery systems not force multipliers by design?
Ah, but we are including transports and delivery systems. Possibly formation bonuses which are force multipliers.
If you said "A WG can't defend against a Meganobz squad because I'll send another boyz squad in" that would not be a good counter. The boyz squad is not a force multiplier and can not be assumed to be following the Nobz around taking overwatch shots for them. If the boyz plus Nobz are cheaper than the WG and the boyz can be assumed to survive, maybe you have an argument but its iffy.
A transport or WWP, however, will be doing just such a job and no other. No one looks at Sternguard and says "Oh, you really can't talk about the drop pod when discussing them".
The argument here is a bit strange, and I hope you see that now.
Traditio wrote:
At any rate, I think that the first point (i.e., the comparison to grav centurions) is sufficient for the current conversation. I omit most of the remainder of your reply, since it's mostly involved with quibbling over comparisons with various units.
Actually, it included a bit more than that.
But I think you're willing to concede that comparisons are fine between units that aren't exactly the same, and we should include all force multipliers that can be assumed for the unit to have (characters in the squad, markerlights, transports).
Traditio wrote:
Also, please stop saying one Krak Missile destroys a WG.
It's a 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, possible 5+ cover save. It really takes 2 Krak missiles to destroy 1 WG, and that is vastly more points for a marine player to use. ML aren't even popular. A plasma cannon also will require about 2 shots to kill one unless your opponent doesn't know how to play this game.
One successful wound from a krak missile destroys a WG. That is a fact.
5 failed FnP rolls from a bolter kill a Riptide. That is a fact.
Do you see how silly that is? No one would think 3 rapid fire bolters would ever kill a Tide reasonably. Just like nobody would think 4 Krak missiles will kill 4 WG.
Traditio wrote:
And actually, the chances are much better than you make out. If I am using devastator or tactical doctrine, I have the opportunity to reroll misses with that krak missile. And I'm wounding on 2s.
It's still less than 1ML = 1WG dead, which is all I said. So no, its exactly what I claimed and significantly worse than what you claimed.
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Post by: Experiment 626
Kanluwen wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:
It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.
And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".
I love how in every case with you it always somehow ends up being that ONLY Marines are powergamers.
So because a person bought Grav-Cents(why would you put Lascannons or Heavy Bolters on them? In this edition, you might as well just throw capguns on them if you want them for MC hunting) and then either fielded an Allied Detachment of some kind OR is running a CAD to begin with(the only two ways for Grav-Cents to get Drop Pods, fyi. Their DT options are LRs or LRCs), they're committing some kind of powergaming sin?
I bet you complain when someone puts Devastators down with Grav-Cannons too.
Gravcents on their own, without any attached IC's are amazing and still among the game's best units.
Gravcents that then get backed up by incredible synergies from the likes of Tiggy/Severin Loth or a couple Libbies, are top level cheese.
Gravcents that can now re-roll all their saves, or else shoot through solid objects without even needing LoS, are just as game breaking and obnoxious as Scatbikes/Spider spam/Wraithknights/Tzeentch 2++ saves/Superfriends Deathstar/etc...
If you're playing against an opponent who loves to bash that square peg into a circle and play Tournamenthammer, then fine, go crazy with power gaming and stupid combos.
If you're playing against an opponent who doesn't want to play that kind of game, (especially if they've repeatedly asked their opponent to not bring that level of sheer OP obnoxiousness), and you still insist on bringing said power gaming unit/combo, then you're a donkeycave.
In my experience over the years, it's been the Loyalist players who tend to cry foul the loudest when asked to tone stuff down, while most of the Xenos players I've known have been far more agreeable to scale back the power of their lists.
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Post by: War Kitten
I would just like to point out that not all Marine players try to pull that gak. It's a small minority of Marine players who give the rest of us a bad name
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Post by: Martel732
It must be nice to know what it's like to "tone it down". The best I can do basically gets laughed at.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Experiment 626 wrote: Kanluwen wrote:Experiment 626 wrote:
It more the travesty that those gravcents will never, ever die, except to D-spam (which Eldar are lucky enough to have potential access to if they take enough Wraith units), and the Pod ultimately puts them within striking range of whatever the hell they want to die with almost 0 risk.
And the sheer hypocrisy of how Marines have been whining for how long now about re-rollable 2+ saves, but then when they get their own, it's not a big deal at all and everyone else just needs to "Git Gud".
I love how in every case with you it always somehow ends up being that ONLY Marines are powergamers.
So because a person bought Grav-Cents(why would you put Lascannons or Heavy Bolters on them? In this edition, you might as well just throw capguns on them if you want them for MC hunting) and then either fielded an Allied Detachment of some kind OR is running a CAD to begin with(the only two ways for Grav-Cents to get Drop Pods, fyi. Their DT options are LRs or LRCs), they're committing some kind of powergaming sin?
I bet you complain when someone puts Devastators down with Grav-Cannons too.
Gravcents on their own, without any attached IC's are amazing and still among the game's best units.
Sure they are, and they pay for it. You might refuse to believe this but they're pretty hefty units pointswise.
Gravcents that then get backed up by incredible synergies from the likes of Tiggy/Severin Loth or a couple Libbies, are top level cheese.
First off, people shouldn't be using Severin Loth. His rules are WAY out of date at this point, with the Codex that they pulled from having gone through two incarnations. They definitely shouldn't be including him in Librarius Conclaves or Gladius Strike Forces or anything like that.
Second off, Librarians aren't invincible and they don't always get the powers they want/need.
Gravcents that can now re-roll all their saves, or else shoot through solid objects without even needing LoS,
So Grav Cents coupled with a Conclave that got super lucky on its Psyker abilities(having to fish through Geokinesis and Librarius for Phase Form and Veil of Time respectively) became more powerful?
They, however, didn't magically become invincible.
are just as game breaking and obnoxious as Scatbikes/Spider spam/Wraithknights/Tzeentch 2++ saves/Superfriends Deathstar/etc...
Gravcents getting hit by AP1 or AP2 and/or Ignores Cover weapons don't get to reroll their saves unless there's something granting them an Invulnerable Save because then their saves are gone.
It's one thing to talk about 2++ rerollables for Tzeentch as there isn't really anything removing Invulnerable Saves from the game or neutering GMC immunity to Sniper/Poison in the case of Wraithknights or Scatterbikes being stupidly underpriced or Warp Spiders' Flickerjump.
It's another thing entirely to pretend as though AP1 or AP2 weapons don't exist.
If you're playing against an opponent who loves to bash that square peg into a circle and play Tournamenthammer, then fine, go crazy with power gaming and stupid combos.
If you're playing against an opponent who doesn't want to play that kind of game, (especially if they've repeatedly asked their opponent to not bring that level of sheer OP obnoxiousness), and you still insist on bringing said power gaming unit/combo, then you're a donkeycave.
And if you're the person asking others to stop doing that and continue to play against the donkeycave, what precisely does that make you?
Come a certain point, it just kinda smacks of sadism.
In my experience over the years, it's been the Loyalist players who tend to cry foul the loudest when asked to tone stuff down, while most of the Xenos players I've known have been far more agreeable to scale back the power of their lists.
And in my experience, it's been the xenos players.
Crazy how anecdotal evidence works, right?
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Post by: Pain4Pleasure
Martel732 wrote:It must be nice to know what it's like to "tone it down". The best I can do basically gets laughed at.
Are you kidding me? You continue to ignore when everyone points out how blood Angels are the best type of marine codex out there. I mean look at vanilla, dark Angels, wolves and grey Knights! The song "everything you can do I can do better" comes to mind. Blood Angels take what every other loyalist does and x2 it! It's crazy and honestly needs to be nerfed to the ground
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Post by: Traditio
Akiasura wrote:So right away, you are dismissing what everyone else is doing by comparing units in a similar role without being able to provide some metric of your own we all can follow?
This is bad form.
They were the ones making the argument. "Hey, look at all of these similar units." The counterargument to this is "They're not really that similar."
I still say that the big method of evaluation is the one that I initially proposed (which peregrine subsequently attacked).
True, it's about two times as expensive as well so per wound it's about the same. Cents are a little tougher against the majority of weapons however.
If that's the case, then wraithguard aren't actually OP or undercosted. Unless centurions are undercosted.
This is a useless limitation and is a big moving of the goalposts from you.
For one, you can freely use other transports or delivery systems from other dexes with the Eldar Army currently. I may not like it, but its certainly legal
Again, then it's not wraithguard that's the problem. It's allies.
And two, you were just claiming a little while ago that we must only look at a unit in a vacuum. Suddenly we can add some synergy to the Cents, but we have to limit what we can add to the WG?
Not at all. If you look at the wraithguard entry in the Eldar codex, it says,in black and white, that it can take a wave serpent as a dedicated transport.
It says, right there in the space marines codex, in the devastator centurion entry, that devastators can take landraiders.
In a vacuum no nothing? Probably both are equally useless with the wraithguard being better since they can't be charged effectively.
With just transports but no other buffs? Probably WG, since they can move around and possibly delete 2-3 units over the course of the game and are much cheaper. The cents will get 2-3 units but cost much more.
With all synergies on the table? Cents. No question.
Of course only talking about the last one is worth anything. However, Cents are one of, if not the, best unit in the game. Are we going to say every GMC that isn't the WK is not strong just because the WK stands head and shoulders above them all?
I didn't make this claim. However, it is pretty illuminating to see that you've basically said that wraithguard are basically appropriately priced when compared to a unit that's actually similar.
But again, I don't deny that wraithguard (and maybe even centurions) should cost more.
That said, I think that we can both agree that an 80 point wraithguard with d-scythe would basically be unplayable. 400 points for wraithguard on foot, roughly 500 with a wave serpent?
Against a MSU army, those wraithguard would never make their points back.
And what possible purpose would such a claim make other than being technically correct?
Because it shows that the problem isn't with that unit. It's with the combination.
Maybe wraithguard are basically balanced...in the context of the eldar codex, and only in the context of the eldar codex. Perhaps they are not balanced when Dark Eldar are their battle brother allies.
But then the problem isn't wraithguard. It's the allied rules.
Are transports and delivery systems not force multipliers by design?
Probably.
Ah, but we are including transports and delivery systems. Possibly formation bonuses which are force multipliers.
I'm including everything in the codex entry.
If you said "A WG can't defend against a Meganobz squad because I'll send another boyz squad in" that would not be a good counter. The boyz squad is not a force multiplier and can not be assumed to be following the Nobz around taking overwatch shots for them. If the boyz plus Nobz are cheaper than the WG and the boyz can be assumed to survive, maybe you have an argument but its iffy.
A transport or WWP, however, will be doing just such a job and no other. No one looks at Sternguard and says "Oh, you really can't talk about the drop pod when discussing them".
So, if you look at the sternguard entry in the marines codex, it gives them the option to take a drop pod. There is no "webway portal" upgrade in the wraithguard entry.
Actually, it included a bit more than that.
But I think you're willing to concede that comparisons are fine between units that aren't exactly the same, and we should include all force multipliers that can be assumed for the unit to have (characters in the squad, markerlights, transports).
Absolutely not. When evaluating a codex entry, it should be evaluated in terms of itself. If wraithguard + webway portal is OP, then maybe there's something wrong with the allies rules.
5 failed FnP rolls from a bolter kill a Riptide.
Do you see how silly that is? No one would think 3 rapid fire bolters would ever kill a Tide reasonably. Just like nobody would think 4 Krak missiles will kill 4 WG.
Let's do the math. Let's assume I am using the tactical doctrine and am firing with 4 krak missile devastators.
4/1 shots X 5/6 chance of hitting X 5/6 chance of wounding = 100/36 or 50/18 or 25/9
That's almost 2 out of 3 krak missiles hitting.
2/3 > 1/2
Let's assume cover: 25/9 X 2/3 50/27
That's slightly worse than 1 in 2.
It's still less than 1ML = 1WG dead, which is all I said. So no, its exactly what I claimed and significantly worse than what you claimed.
Be that as it may, it remains true that krak missiles are an effective way of killing wraithguard.
In 2 or 3 rounds of shooting, that 130 point (170 if flakk missiles are taken) squad reliably is going to kill that 210 point squad.
Edit:
At any rate, I simply refuse to talk about all possible synergies, even within a given codex.
If you have to talk about all of those synergies, you aren't saying "this individual thing is broken." You're just saying: "The whole codex is broken."
And that's not really all that helpful.
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Post by: Martel732
Grav cents, with no support units included are actually kinda victims. They get one shot off, and then die in a hail of AP 2 fire. Or get assaulted.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
Martel732 wrote:Grav cents, with no support units included are actually kinda victims. They get one shot off, and then die in a hail of AP 2 fire. Or get assaulted.
Same with wraithguard lol.
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Post by: kburn
cosmicsoybean wrote:
I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)
I don't think you realise that eldar players are the only ones bshing on "spress murrenz". To players of other armies, they rather play against Space Marines that eldar.
Eldar players are simply jealous that Space Marines are so much more interesting than mary sue elves in space who are "glass scapel" generalists who can do everything, but are such special snowflakes that they're the best at everything.
I play Tyranids, and I would not play an eldar player. The 2 local clubs around my area has outright banned eldar. There's a good reason why players and clubs refuse to play eldar, while you don't hear of anyone banning Space Marines.
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Post by: Martel732
cosmicsoybean wrote:Martel732 wrote:Grav cents, with no support units included are actually kinda victims. They get one shot off, and then die in a hail of AP 2 fire. Or get assaulted.
Same with wraithguard lol.
I'm not complaining about wraithguard.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
kburn wrote: cosmicsoybean wrote:
I don't think they realise that a 3+ chance at 1d3 wounds is good, but not as game breaking as the new SPESS MURRENZ thanks to their new toys (again)
I don't think you realise that eldar players are the only ones bshing on "spress murrenz". To players of other armies, they rather play against Space Marines that eldar.
Eldar players are simply jealous that Space Marines are so much more interesting than mary sue elves in space who are "glass scapel" generalists who can do everything, but are such special snowflakes that they're the best at everything.
I play Tyranids, and I would not play an eldar player. The 2 local clubs around my area has outright banned eldar. There's a good reason why players and clubs refuse to play eldar, while you don't hear of anyone banning Space Marines.
So much wrong here lmao.
First, no, space marines are disliked buy a decent number of people, of all races
How is "Generic marine will win generic fight because plot armour" more interesting than ANY other fluff?
Where the hell are you reading your codexs where they are generalists? There is a unit dedicated to each threat, other use is really inefficient.
I too play nids... so what if you wont play, means that you are fighting powergamers or you're a very poor sport, or gakky.
Those local clubs also have eaither a very high percentage of powergamers, or they are mega-casual crowd (nothing wrong with that)
And if people banned space marines thats literally 75%+ of players suddenly not going. No one who spent money on an army and the time will go "yeah, my army is op, instead of houserules, ban my army so I cant play them!"
10/10 lmao.
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Post by: Martel732
The scatterlaser is the most generalist weapon in the game.
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Post by: Akiasura
Traditio wrote:Akiasura wrote:So right away, you are dismissing what everyone else is doing by comparing units in a similar role without being able to provide some metric of your own we all can follow?
This is bad form.
They were the ones making the argument. "Hey, look at all of these similar units." The counterargument to this is "They're not really that similar."
I still say that the big method of evaluation is the one that I initially proposed (which peregrine subsequently attacked).
True, it's about two times as expensive as well so per wound it's about the same. Cents are a little tougher against the majority of weapons however.
If that's the case, then wraithguard aren't actually OP or undercosted. Unless centurions are undercosted.
...are one of the strongest units in the game undercosted? Is that what you're asking?
Yes.
Yes of course they are.
Are you trolling? Have you never seen Cents with all the tools on the battlefield? They eliminate 2 units a turn of practically anything but large hordes every turn, and do it quite safely from most units outside of long range firepower. And they are incredibly tough against most counters for a variety of reasons.
Traditio wrote:
This is a useless limitation and is a big moving of the goalposts from you.
For one, you can freely use other transports or delivery systems from other dexes with the Eldar Army currently. I may not like it, but its certainly legal
Again, then it's not wraithguard that's the problem. It's allies.
You can't say it's just allies, that is the problem. Dire Avengers, for example, aren't being complained about when allies are used. It's very few units in the Eldar codex that benefit from Allies, and WG happen to be one of them.
You have to include it in the discussion, as its how they are taken. Otherwise you are using limiting qualifiers to make a point and no other purpose.
Traditio wrote:
And two, you were just claiming a little while ago that we must only look at a unit in a vacuum. Suddenly we can add some synergy to the Cents, but we have to limit what we can add to the WG?
Not at all. If you look at the wraithguard entry in the Eldar codex, it says,in black and white, that it can take a wave serpent as a dedicated transport.
It says, right there in the space marines codex, in the devastator centurion entry, that devastators can take landraiders.
And no one takes Cents with the land raider.
You take a teleporting libby or SC with them, or you don't really take them at all. No one uses a land raider.
I have to ask, have you not seen Cents in the game? You seem to honestly have no idea at all how they operate, which is why you keep making these counter arguments that are just...not at all what was implied when everyone else seems to understand it.
Traditio wrote:
In a vacuum no nothing? Probably both are equally useless with the wraithguard being better since they can't be charged effectively.
With just transports but no other buffs? Probably WG, since they can move around and possibly delete 2-3 units over the course of the game and are much cheaper. The cents will get 2-3 units but cost much more.
With all synergies on the table? Cents. No question.
Of course only talking about the last one is worth anything. However, Cents are one of, if not the, best unit in the game. Are we going to say every GMC that isn't the WK is not strong just because the WK stands head and shoulders above them all?
I didn't make this claim. However, it is pretty illuminating to see that you've basically said that wraithguard are basically appropriately priced when compared to a unit that's actually similar.
But again, I don't deny that wraithguard (and maybe even centurions) should cost more.
That said, I think that we can both agree that an 80 point wraithguard with d-scythe would basically be unplayable. 400 points for wraithguard on foot, roughly 500 with a wave serpent?
Against a MSU army, those wraithguard would never make their points back.
Cents are not costed correctly, so saying WG are about the same means that the WG are OP. Again, do you have any idea what Cents are? Or how to determine if a unit is OP?
If a GMC came out that was costed like the WK, was different but comparable, would anyone be claiming it was fairly priced?
Of course not.
Just because a unit isn't 50% undercosted, since you doubled the price of them practically, (even the WK only needs a 100-150 point increase, the riptide less) doesn't mean its not OP. By your definition, there is no OP unit in the entire game. That's not an argument I would care to make.
Traditio wrote:
And what possible purpose would such a claim make other than being technically correct?
Because it shows that the problem isn't with that unit. It's with the combination.
Maybe wraithguard are basically balanced...in the context of the eldar codex, and only in the context of the eldar codex. Perhaps they are not balanced when Dark Eldar are their battle brother allies.
But then the problem isn't wraithguard. It's the allied rules.
No, that's not at all true.
Originally you said no WS. Just with a WS they become very strong and would be taken in any other average level dex. And spammed.
With all of the options on the table, WG are amazing. Only the eldar codex ignores them because the eldar codex has some of the strongest units in the game.
You can't just look at the combination and say "everything in this is fine, but combined its broken" and not say the unit is broken. If the unit is taken constantly in the combination, then the unit is essentially the combination barring an edition change.
Traditio wrote:
Are transports and delivery systems not force multipliers by design?
Probably.
So...we can include them then?
Are allies not fore multipliers?
Traditio wrote:
Ah, but we are including transports and delivery systems. Possibly formation bonuses which are force multipliers.
I'm including everything in the codex entry.
Why are you limiting yourself to just that? That makes cents look much weaker than they are, you aren't getting an idea of what the game looks like at all using your methods.
Traditio wrote:
If you said "A WG can't defend against a Meganobz squad because I'll send another boyz squad in" that would not be a good counter. The boyz squad is not a force multiplier and can not be assumed to be following the Nobz around taking overwatch shots for them. If the boyz plus Nobz are cheaper than the WG and the boyz can be assumed to survive, maybe you have an argument but its iffy.
A transport or WWP, however, will be doing just such a job and no other. No one looks at Sternguard and says "Oh, you really can't talk about the drop pod when discussing them".
So, if you look at the sternguard entry in the marines codex, it gives them the option to take a drop pod. There is no "webway portal" upgrade in the wraithguard entry.
First off, originally you didn't want any transport included at all. Someone brought up a WS and you didn't want it included.
Second, why are you setting all of these useless limits? Who cares about the codex entry? Should I assume Tiggy will never go with a squad because there is no squad listed in his codex entry?
It's absurd.
Traditio wrote:
Actually, it included a bit more than that.
But I think you're willing to concede that comparisons are fine between units that aren't exactly the same, and we should include all force multipliers that can be assumed for the unit to have (characters in the squad, markerlights, transports).
Absolutely not. When evaluating a codex entry, it should be evaluated in terms of itself. If wraithguard + webway portal is OP, then maybe there's something wrong with the allies rules.
Who says so? Why would you do that?
Frankly, you're just saying that to say it. You've given no indication why we shouldn't look at all the options the game allows you to take and instead have set up artificial limits on what we can discuss.
I believe it's because your point wouldn't exist if we looked at all the options the WG have.
[/b] You must defend why we can only look at the codex entry and not what the game allows you to do before claiming it like it's some sort of universal truth. [b]
Traditio wrote:
5 failed FnP rolls from a bolter kill a Riptide.
Do you see how silly that is? No one would think 3 rapid fire bolters would ever kill a Tide reasonably. Just like nobody would think 4 Krak missiles will kill 4 WG.
Let's do the math. Let's assume I am using the tactical doctrine and am firing with 4 krak missile devastators.
4/1 shots X 5/6 chance of hitting X 5/6 chance of wounding = 100/36 or 50/18 or 25/9
That's almost 2 out of 3 krak missiles hitting.
2/3 > 1/2
Let's assume cover: 25/9 X 2/3 50/27
That's slightly worse than 1 in 2.
Which is still less than 1 for 1, which was your original claim. It's actually closer to my original claim.
I appreciate you proving my point for me.
Traditio wrote:
It's still less than 1ML = 1WG dead, which is all I said. So no, its exactly what I claimed and significantly worse than what you claimed.
Be that as it may, it remains true that krak missiles are an effective way of killing wraithguard.
In 2 or 3 rounds of shooting, that 130 point (170 if flakk missiles are taken) squad reliably is going to kill that 210 point squad.
Assuming that unit lives against an eldar army, sure. And assuming it can destroy the transport (it can't before the WG are delivered, only grav bikers or cents will do that reliably in a marine force for a realistic point cost).
It's also 2-3 rounds of shooting. For a unit that will be in a transport half of the game, you are saying it'll take roughly 4-6 rounds to destroy the WG.
That's...the game length really. They'll have earned their points back on turn 2 or 4.
Traditio wrote:
Edit:
At any rate, I simply refuse to talk about all possible synergies, even within a given codex.
If you have to talk about all of those synergies, you aren't saying "this individual thing is broken." You're just saying: "The whole codex is broken."
And that's not really all that helpful.
If you refuse to discuss it, then no offense, you are going to continue coming in here complaining about how cheap things are and losing terribly.
You're already very limited in what you know about this game, it might help you to look at more than what you are currently willing to discuss and take advice from more experienced players. No offense man, but you're brand new and from all the posts I've seen of yours, struggling with lists. Take a sit back and figure out why you need to set these limits to make yourself correct, rather than look at the game as a whole and see what works.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
Though its closely followed by grav which only falls short because Ork Boyz exist.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
and scatterlasers are not plentiful on other units other than the bikes, whos job is to mow down infantry anyways.
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Post by: kburn
cosmicsoybean wrote:
So much wrong here lmao.
First, no, space marines are disliked buy a decent number of people, of all races
How is "Generic marine will win generic fight because plot armour" more interesting than ANY other fluff?
Where the hell are you reading your codexs where they are generalists? There is a unit dedicated to each threat, other use is really inefficient.
I too play nids... so what if you wont play, means that you are fighting powergamers or you're a very poor sport, or gakky.
Those local clubs also have eaither a very high percentage of powergamers, or they are mega-casual crowd (nothing wrong with that)
And if people banned space marines thats literally 75%+ of players suddenly not going. No one who spent money on an army and the time will go "yeah, my army is op, instead of houserules, ban my army so I cant play them!"
10/10 lmao.
Not sure if people in denial are this thick.
No one cares if you don't like marine fluff, but there's good reason why BL produces so much marine books. If you want stories about mary sue or elves, go watch sword art online or something.
It doesn't mean that if the codex says they're specialists, that they really are. There are several replies above and below you which calls them generalists, you need to get your eyes checked. Best at shooting,best at movement, best at survivalbility, best at assault. For other armies, its pick 1-2, and some like tyranids, its pick none. Almost every eldar unit can pick 3-4 from that list.
I'm not the only one who wouldn't play against eldar. Many others don't.
Either way, doesn't matter what you say. If you're right, then enjoy the abundance of games you're getting. If you're wrong, only you know.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
cosmicsoybean wrote: and scatterlasers are not plentiful on other units other than the bikes, whos job is to mow down infantry anyways. Except Scatter Lasers mow down more than just infantry. They also shred light vehicles and monstrous creatures thanks to the volume of shots. Automatically Appended Next Post: kburn wrote: No one cares if you don't like marine fluff, but there's good reason why BL produces so much marine books. If you want stories about mary sue or elves, go watch sword art online or something. Marines are the biggest mary sues in the whole setting, though that is largely thanks to Mat Ward. Marines being mary sues is precisely the reason that so many books get written about them, they're a power fantasy with homoerotic undertones where you just insert a character who is the best at X, Y and Z and then just have him beat up a load of whatever bad guy he happens to be facing then he goes home and slaps a load of burly men on the back whilst saying "Brother!"
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Post by: Martel732
Marines can field far fewer grav weapons than Eldar can scatterlasers. Also, regular grav guns are very much inferior to scatterlasers.
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Post by: cosmicsoybean
kburn wrote: cosmicsoybean wrote:
So much wrong here lmao.
First, no, space marines are disliked buy a decent number of people, of all races
How is "Generic marine will win generic fight because plot armour" more interesting than ANY other fluff?
Where the hell are you reading your codexs where they are generalists? There is a unit dedicated to each threat, other use is really inefficient.
I too play nids... so what if you wont play, means that you are fighting powergamers or you're a very poor sport, or gakky.
Those local clubs also have eaither a very high percentage of powergamers, or they are mega-casual crowd (nothing wrong with that)
And if people banned space marines thats literally 75%+ of players suddenly not going. No one who spent money on an army and the time will go "yeah, my army is op, instead of houserules, ban my army so I cant play them!"
10/10 lmao.
Not sure if people in denial are this thick.
No one cares if you don't like marine fluff, but there's good reason why BL produces so much marine books. If you want stories about mary sue or elves, go watch sword art online or something.
It doesn't mean that if the codex says they're specialists, that they really are. There are several replies above and below you which calls them generalists, you need to get your eyes checked. Best at shooting,best at movement, best at survivalbility, best at assault. For other armies, its pick 1-2, and some like tyranids, its pick none. Almost every eldar unit can pick 3-4 from that list.
I'm not the only one who wouldn't play against eldar. Many others don't.
Either way, doesn't matter what you say. If you're right, then enjoy the abundance of games you're getting. If you're wrong, only you know.
Okay have fun getting into melee with some fire dragons, or dark reapers, or swooping hawks, or warp spiders... Oh, wait, there gak in melee combat! Spiders excel at infantry killing, fire dragons anti tank, scorpions are melee and such, they are not good at anything else really, thats like me calling a lascannon squad generalists... no, they are dedicated to a role, and do not do the other roles that well.
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Post by: kburn
cosmicsoybean wrote:
Okay have fun getting into melee with some fire dragons, or dark reapers, or swooping hawks, or warp spiders... Oh, wait, there gak in melee combat! Spiders excel at infantry killing, fire dragons anti tank, scorpions are melee and such, they are not good at anything else really, thats like me calling a lascannon squad generalists... no, they are dedicated to a role, and do not do the other roles that well.
I said 3 of 4. All of those units are very survivable, have great movement and are either great at melee or shooting, whereas all other armies are pick 1/2 out of 4.
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Post by: Martel732
Spiders also tear vehicles and MCs apart, just like scatterbikes. They are generalists.
The WK is a generalist.
Scatterbikes are generalists.
Do the Eldar have other units? It's been so long...
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Post by: Traditio
Akiasura wrote:...are one of the strongest units in the game undercosted? Is that what you're asking? Yes. Yes of course they are. Are you trolling? No. Note, I wasn't denying that centurions are undercosted. I was simply offering the logical possibilities. Necessarily, based on your concessions, either grav centurions are undercosted, or else, wraithguard are fairly costed. [The assumption is that it is fair that a wraithguard should cost half of what a grav centurion costs.] Have you never seen Cents with all the tools on the battlefield? They eliminate 2 units a turn of practically anything but large hordes every turn, and do it quite safely from most units outside of long range firepower. And they are incredibly tough against most counters for a variety of reasons. Well, they do it from 24 inch range or less. That's the range of a grav cannon. At any rate, simply noting that a unit is good, or even OP, in a combination isn't helpful in terms of identifying the appropriate fix. Should centurions have their costs increased? Should they not be able to ride in vehicles other than land raiders? Should they not be able to benefit from certain kinds of psychic abilities? Let me just think out loud here. A devastator marine is 14 ppm. Let's assume an additional 20 ppm for the twin-linked heavybolter and hurricane bolter, as well as the ability to fire two weapons in the same turn (as well as additional T and S): 34 ppm. How much is the suit of armor worth? Lets just call it an additional 6 points to make it an even 40 ppm. Double that for 2 wounds for 80 ppm. Full price for grav cannon and amp would make that 115 ppm. Wraithguard should cost 50 ppm without d-scythes, 60 points with d-scythes? You can't say it's just allies, that is the problem. Dire Avengers, for example, aren't being complained about when allies are used. It's very few units in the Eldar codex that benefit from Allies, and WG happen to be one of them. So your argument against allies being a problem is that it's not a problem when it's not used to pair up web-way portal and wraithguard (and other like things). But you consider it entirely legitimate to assert that wraithguard are the problem, even though they are not a problem when not paired up with x, y and z? And no one takes Cents with the land raider. You take a teleporting libby or SC with them, or you don't really take them at all. No one uses a land raider. Well maybe the problem isn't Cents. Maybe psychic powers (or at least certain psychic powers) are OP. I have to ask, have you not seen Cents in the game? I have not personally seen cents used in this fashion, though I am aware that the are often coupled with teleporting librarians. Instead of saying "NERF CENTS," maybe the solution is "NERF PSYKERS." Cents are not costed correctly, so saying WG are about the same means that the WG are OP. Again, do you have any idea what Cents are? Or how to determine if a unit is OP? If a GMC came out that was costed like the WK, was different but comparable, would anyone be claiming it was fairly priced? Of course not. Just because a unit isn't 50% undercosted, since you doubled the price of them practically, (even the WK only needs a 100-150 point increase, the riptide less) doesn't mean its not OP. By your definition, there is no OP unit in the entire game. That's not an argument I would care to make. Fair enough. No, that's not at all true. Originally you said no WS. Just with a WS they become very strong and would be taken in any other average level dex. And spammed. With all of the options on the table, WG are amazing. Only the eldar codex ignores them because the eldar codex has some of the strongest units in the game. You can't just look at the combination and say "everything in this is fine, but combined its broken" and not say the unit is broken. If the unit is taken constantly in the combination, then the unit is essentially the combination barring an edition change. Or perhaps the combination should just be broken up. For example, by altering the allies rules. So...we can include them then? Are allies not fore multipliers? Not in and of itself, not in any significant sense. If I take salamanders captain and 2 additional tactical squads, that's an allied detachment. Is it a force multiplier in the relevant sense? No. Why are you limiting yourself to just that? That makes cents look much weaker than they are, you aren't getting an idea of what the game looks like at all using your methods. They would be, if it weren't for psyker shenanigans. Which is still less than 1 for 1, which was your original claim. It's actually closer to my original claim. I appreciate you proving my point for me. That is the point that you made. I believe you said 2 krak missiles. By my maths, it's takes slightly more than 2, if cover. But yes, you were right about this. Fair point. Assuming that unit lives against an eldar army, sure. And that's the problem. The eldar codex has other things that are FAR more OP, and wraithguard deal with what those other OP things can't. Addendum: At any rate, I do stand by this point: I've played against an eldar list that didn't use wraithknights, scatter bikes or dark eldar. It did use wraithguard. Dark reapers, farseer, warlocks, fire dragons, dire avengers, wraithguard on foot, rangers and the ranger HQ. The wraithguard were not the units on the board dealing the majority of the damage. I lost the game by a lot. Don't get me wrong. But it's not the wraithguard that was slaughtering my MSU Crimson Fists. Eldritch storms and dark reaper blasts? That's a different story. Wraithguard? Not really.
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Post by: kburn
Traditio wrote:
At any rate, I do stand by this point:
I've played against an eldar list that didn't use wraithknights, scatter bikes or dark eldar. It did use wraithguard.
Dark reapers, farseer, warlocks, fire dragons, dire avengers, wraithguard on foot, rangers and the ranger HQ.
The wraithguard were not the units on the board dealing the majority of the damage.
I lost the game by a lot. Don't get me wrong. But it's not the wraithguard that was slaughtering my MSU Crimson Fists.
Eldritch storms and dark reaper blasts? That's a different story.
Wraithguard? Not really.
Imagine if you brought a game with titans, or with many vehicles, or with many elite troops.
Their gun is literally the ultimate gun. There is nothing that hits harder. Eldar has the ultimate movement. Maybe his other troops were so overpowered, that it shadows out a unit as strong as wraithguard?
Because, to be honest, the only unit in the entire eldar codex that is priced rightly are rangers, and even they would be devestating, top tier units in certain armies (tyranids, orks)
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Post by: Traditio
kburn wrote:Imagine if you brought a game with titans, or with many vehicles, or with many elite troops.
As I said:
At that point, you've revoked the right to complain.
You brought cheese?
Well, wraithguard are a particularly good knife for slicing up gouda, cheddar, and all varieties of cheese.
You want to keep the right to complain?
Then don't bring cheese.
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Post by: Peregrine
And there's the reason why you weren't impressed. Obviously short-ranged squads need some kind of transport/deep strike/etc to get them within range, the fact that a badly-used squad of wraithguard failed to do much doesn't mean that they're weak. It just means that they weren't used effectively. Automatically Appended Next Post: Traditio wrote:As I said:
At that point, you've revoked the right to complain.
You brought cheese?
Well, wraithguard are a particularly good knife for slicing up gouda, cheddar, and all varieties of cheese.
You want to keep the right to complain?
Then don't bring cheese.
IOW "play the game the way I want you to play it or your balance concerns are not valid".
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Post by: Traditio
Peregrine wrote:And there's the reason why you weren't impressed. Obviously short-ranged squads need some kind of transport/deep strike/etc to get them within range, the fact that a badly-used squad of wraithguard failed to do much doesn't mean that they're weak. It just means that they weren't used effectively.
I was legitimately surprised that my opponent didn't use wave serpents. He owns several. He cheesed the tar out of them for the last codex.
IOW "play the game the way I want you to play it or your balance concerns are not valid".
It's an intentional/performative contradiction. "I am running these models or this list or using these tactics which can heavily imbalance a given game. HEY, YOU'RE USING SOMETHING IMBALANCED AND OP TO KILL MY OP THING!"
And such a performative contradiction aside, if wraithguard promote an MSU meta, then I'm all for it. That's the kind of meta in which I'd prefer to play.
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Post by: kburn
Traditio wrote:
As I said:
At that point, you've revoked the right to complain.
You brought cheese?
Well, wraithguard are a particularly good knife for slicing up gouda, cheddar, and all varieties of cheese.
You want to keep the right to complain?
Then don't bring cheese.
What cheese? GK in 3rd-5th were one of the weakest armies, composed of elite troops. They are very average these days. An all-terminator army is also very weak. Also, IG without vehicles? How much weaker you want them to be?
Even then, wraithguard are good even against normal armies like marines. 5 Str blast shots will eailt wipe out any marine squad, with T6 being extremely resilient. You were just unfortunate enough to face the cheesier units.
The fact that eldar can extremely easily destroy what you consider "cheese" says a lot about them. They're at a level beyond mere cheese
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Post by: Traditio
kburn wrote:What cheese? GK in 3rd-5th were one of the weakest armies, composed of elite troops. They are very average these days. An all-terminator army is also very weak. Also, IG without vehicles? How much weaker you want them to be?
I seriously doubt that wraithguard unduly prejudice the meta against gray knights.
Also, what vehicles in IG? Are you talking about 50 or so point troop transports like chimeras?
I really can't see why wraithguard have an undue advantage against such...
Oh, you want to spam Leeman Russes?
Enjoy the wraithguard.
Even then, wraithguard are good even against normal armies like marines. 5 Str blast shots will eailt wipe out any marine squad, with T6 being extremely resilient. You were just unfortunate enough to face the cheesier units.
Wraithcannons don't fire blasts. They're just Assault 1.
The fact that eldar can extremely easily destroy what you consider "cheese" says a lot about them. They're at a level beyond mere cheese
Only if you run cheese. If you're not running cheese, wraithguard aren't over the top OP.
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Post by: Peregrine
Traditio wrote:It's an intentional/performative contradiction. "I am running these models or this list or using these tactics which can heavily imbalance a given game. HEY, YOU'RE USING SOMETHING IMBALANCED AND OP TO KILL MY OP THING!"
Except it isn't necessarily overpowered. Look at that hypothetical again:
Imagine if you brought a game with titans, or with many vehicles, or with many elite troops.
I'll grant that literal titans are overpowered and kind of unfair in normal games, but the general class of "big centerpiece models that don't technically have 'titan' in their name" is not. And there are plenty of armies with lots of vehicles or elite troops that are not overpowered. This is just another case of you saying "play the game the way I want you to play it or you're wrong".
And such a performative contradiction aside, if wraithguard promote an MSU meta, then I'm all for it. That's the kind of meta in which I'd prefer to play.
I see. So your previous "I shouldn't have to play that way" only applies to you personally, like when you don't want to be forced to use drop pods to compete? It doesn't apply at all to someone who doesn't want to be forced to bring MSU to compete? Good job reinforcing my point there. Automatically Appended Next Post: Traditio wrote:Also, what vehicles in IG? Are you talking about 50 or so point troop transports like chimeras?
I really can't see why wraithguard have an undue advantage against such...
Oh, you want to spam Leeman Russes?
Enjoy the wraithguard.
Let me get this straight: you're seriously claiming that LRBT spam is so overpowered that you have no sympathy for people who bring LRBTs and get tabled by wraithguard?
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Post by: kburn
Traditio wrote:
I seriously doubt that wraithguard unduly prejudice the meta against gray knights.
Also, what vehicles in IG? Are you talking about 50 or so point troop transports like chimeras?
I really can't see why wraithguard have an undue advantage against such...
Oh, you want to spam Leeman Russes?
Enjoy the wraithguard.
Wraithcannons don't fire blasts. They're just Assault 1.
Only if you run cheese. If you're not running cheese, wraithguard aren't over the top OP.
Sorry, eldar got banned in my club so long ago, I forgot what kind of shots they pumped out.
So even fun vehicle heavy lists like land raiders get penalised? Also, leman russ being OP? What are you smoking?
It seems that to you, if you take a unit thats not OP=your fault, if you take a unit that you think is OP=you deserve wraithguard? Cannot win with you eh?
So tell me, other than MSU with poor armour saves, which are an absolute rarity, what are wraithguard bad against?
Either way, not sure if you're an eldar player in disguise or something, doesn't matter what we say, but if so, good luck getting games!
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Post by: SemperMortis
cosmicsoybean wrote:
and scatterlasers are not plentiful on other units other than the bikes, whos job is to mow down infantry anyways.
Scatterlasers aren't plentiful on other units? what about those war walkers, ohh wait they don't count because they aren't OP Gak.
Scatterlasers are good at everything EXCEPT killing AV12+ and even AV12 they can hurt them.
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Post by: Traditio
kburn wrote:So even fun vehicle heavy lists like land raiders get penalised?
Enjoy the wraithguard.
Also, leman russ being OP?
The reason you spammed leeman russes is so that you could invalidate the majority of my army and wipe out my army at range with pie plates.
Enjoy the wraithguard.
So tell me, other than MSU with poor armour saves, which are an absolute rarity, what are wraithguard bad against?
As I said. They die just fine to sternguard hellfire ammunion, plasma cannons, krak missiles, etc.
Either way, not sure if you're an eldar player in disguise or something, doesn't matter what we say, but if so, good luck getting games!
I am not. I run a battle company with pedro kantor and a 1st company task force of 20 sternguard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote:I'll grant that literal titans are overpowered and kind of unfair in normal games, but the general class of "big centerpiece models that don't technically have 'titan' in their name" is not.
I didn't start playing Warhammer so I could play Battle of the Giant Robots or have Godzilla re-enactments.
If wraithguard shift the meta away from this, then I like wraithguard. I like them a lot.
I see. So your previous "I shouldn't have to play that way" only applies to you personally, like when you don't want to be forced to use drop pods to compete? It doesn't apply at all to someone who doesn't want to be forced to bring MSU to compete? Good job reinforcing my point there.
Then don't bring MSU. Bring swarms/hordes.
But if you bring extremely points heavy single models or points heavy deathstars...
...
Enjoy the wraithguard.
Let me get this straight: you're seriously claiming that LRBT spam is so overpowered that you have no sympathy for people who bring LRBTs and get tabled by wraithguard?
I'm saying that the purpose of the player who brings LRBT spam removes any sympathy I might have for him.
May he enjoy the wraithguard.
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Post by: kburn
I'd love to, except eldar is banned across the only 2 local clubs.
I highly doubt my area is the only place where eldar players has problems getting games in
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Post by: Traditio
kburn wrote:I highly doubt my area is the only place where eldar players has problems getting games in
I play MSU marines.
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Post by: Peregrine
Traditio wrote:The reason you spammed leeman russes is so that you could invalidate the majority of my army and wipe out my army at range with pie plates.
No, the reason I spammed LRBTs is because I love the model and don't enjoy painting infantry. But nice job, once again, making assumptions about people and declaring that everyone who doesn't enjoy playing the game the same way that you do is a Bad Person.
I didn't start playing Warhammer so I could play Battle of the Giant Robots or have Godzilla re-enactments.
If wraithguard shift the meta away from this, then I like wraithguard. I like them a lot.
So, just like I said then:
If you have to play something you don't like (drop pods, for example) there is something wrong with the game and it needs to be fixed.
If your opponent has to play something they don't like ( MSU instead of their giant robots) then it's just fine, because that's the way you want to play the game.
At least you admit your selfish double standard.
I'm saying that the purpose of the player who brings LRBT spam removes any sympathy I might have for him.
Yeah, what a truly awful person I am, undeserving of any sympathy at all. I will no doubt burn in hell for eternity for my unforgivable sin of painting the models I like and expecting to use them.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
So you think Land Raiders should suffer more than they already do? Are you SERIOUS?
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Post by: Traditio
Peregrine wrote:No, the reason I spammed LRBTs is because I love the model and don't enjoy painting infantry. But nice job, once again, making assumptions about people and declaring that everyone who doesn't enjoy playing the game the same way that you do is a Bad Person.
If LRBT were 250 ppm without upgrades, but had exactly the same rules they do now, would you continue using them?
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Post by: Peregrine
Traditio wrote:If LRBT were 250 ppm without upgrades, but had exactly the same rules they do now, would you continue using them?
No, because I don't enjoy losing games where I have no hope of winning. In that case I'd just stop playing 40k.
And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.
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Post by: Traditio
Peregrine wrote:No, because I don't enjoy losing games where I have no hope of winning. In that case I'd just stop playing 40k.
And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.
You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models.
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Post by: LinkXx
kburn wrote:
I'd love to, except eldar is banned across the only 2 local clubs.
I highly doubt my area is the only place where eldar players has problems getting games in
wtf?! That's sad. Yes, Eldar are probabaly the best overall codex in 40k at this moment, but straight up banning a CORE army?? That's just a sad gamer's excuse.
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Post by: Traditio
LinkXx wrote:wtf?! That's sad. Yes, Eldar are probabaly the best overall codex in 40k at this moment, but straight up banning a CORE army?? That's just a sad gamer's excuse.
And I'm sure they allow Tau, too.
Personally, I think the way it should be is:
Nerf Eldar.
Ban Tau.
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Post by: Peregrine
Traditio wrote:You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models.
Because I don't think you got it the first time I said it:
And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.
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Post by: Grimskul
Traditio wrote:Peregrine wrote:No, because I don't enjoy losing games where I have no hope of winning. In that case I'd just stop playing 40k. And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule. You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models. No he didn't, he said he wouldn't play with them because it wouldn't even be a game or for him to be able to have fun if they were arbitrarily nerfed to the ground via your example just like you wouldn't play with sternguard if they cost 50 ppm and could only use lasguns. LRBT spam is a very fluffy and often common list that is honestly much weaker (notice how they can only move 6" a turn, can't flat out and all your marines come stock with krak grenades on that tasty rear 10 armour?) than an IG combined arms or mech vet list, do you not know of the tank regiments guard have? Of course not, you're only cognisant of things you deem to be relevant and what you're biased towards.
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Post by: Peregrine
I see. So, once again you show no shame in saying "my enjoyment of the game is the only thing that matters". It's pretty amusing how hypocritical you are about this. You are quite happy to talk about how anyone who takes an excessively-powerful list is a bad person because they don't care if their opponent enjoys the game or not, but here you are suggesting that we ban an entire army. For all your attempts to take the moral high ground you really just care about yourself, and everyone is just a pawn for your entertainment.
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Post by: kburn
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:So you think Land Raiders should suffer more than they already do? Are you SERIOUS?
He wants you to enjoy the wraithguard
In all honesty, the best thing for you to do is just turn down games from eldar players. My club did that, and its the best thing they could do. No "why is his list not banned, and mine is" when they walk in with wraithknights and scatlasers. No endless taunts of git gud. No 3 hour ego-stroke fest for the owners of easy-mode armies. No "He plays marines, he's cheesy and should be banned, not me". No bunch of players always winning every single tournament. If they like eldar, they can collect them and put them on the shelf, while playing with a different army.
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Post by: Traditio
Peregrine wrote:Traditio wrote:You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models.
Because I don't think you got it the first time I said it:
And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.
I didn't say anything about house rules. My question is this:
If GW came out with a new codex and the entry for the LRBT had a "250" in the points cost slot, but everything else in the codex were the same, would you continue to spam LRBT?
Note, this has nothing to do with house rules.
If you say "no," then you don't run those models simply because you like the models. You think that they confer a decisive tactical advantage.
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Post by: Peregrine
Traditio wrote:If you say "no," then you don't run those models simply because you like the models. You think that they confer a decisive tactical advantage.
LRBT spam is a mid-tier army, at best. It doesn't have a "decisive tactical advantage". It can win games, but if you want to win as much as possible you certainly aren't going to take it. Massively over-nerfing LRBTs would make it virtually impossible to win unless your opponent takes pity on you and tones down their list to match your poor LRBTs.
So, let me make this nice and clear: I take LRBT (well, IG vehicles in general, to be precise) spam because I like the fluff and models. If GW put out a new codex where they cost 250+ points I would just stop playing the game because my army would have been pointlessly crippled beyond any hope of winning. Please stop telling me how you know more than I do about my own reasons for doing something.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Traditio wrote: Peregrine wrote:Traditio wrote:You've admitted that, if the rules for the LRBT were different, then you wouldn't play them. Therefore, you don't play them only because you like the models.
Because I don't think you got it the first time I said it:
And no, you are not going to use your ridiculous "accept my house rule to massively nerf your unit or admit that you're lying about using a unit because you like the model" strategy. It's been a terrible argument every time you've used it in the past, and it's a terrible argument now. Rejecting obviously terrible house rules does not tell you anything about a player's motivation for using a unit, it just tells you that they don't agree with your obviously terrible house rule.
I didn't say anything about house rules. My question is this:
If GW came out with a new codex and the entry for the LRBT had a "250" in the points cost slot, but everything else in the codex were the same, would you continue to spam LRBT?
Note, this has nothing to do with house rules.
If you say "no," then you don't run those models simply because you like the models. You think that they confer a decisive tactical advantage.
And if GW said Tactical Marines were 30 points each, would YOU continue using them.
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Post by: Traditio
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And if GW said Tactical Marines were 30 points each, would YOU continue using them.
Like Peregrine, I'd probably just stop playing, because 30 point tactical marines would cripple my army.
That said, I don't claim to play the army I do only because I like the models.
I certainly do like the models. But the ultimate reason I use sternguard, e.g., is because of their special ammunition.
If GW replaced Sternguard rules for Thousand Sons rules, I might just stop running sternguard.
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Post by: Peregrine
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And if GW said Tactical Marines were 30 points each, would YOU continue using them.
Yeah, let's do this, it's only fair.
Traditio, would you continue to play your marine army ( without expecting your opponents to change their armies and play an entirely different game with you) if every model in it cost 10,000 points per model? If not then you admit that you're just trying to get a decisive tactical advantage and mercilessly crush your opponents. And, by your own explicit condemnation of that approach to gaming, this makes you the exact same kind of Bad Person that you accuse other people of being.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traditio wrote:If GW replaced Sternguard rules for Thousand Sons rules, I might just stop running sternguard.
I see, so you admit that you just play the army you have because you want a decisive tactical advantage (as you put it). You'd better not read all of the nasty things you've had to say about people who do that, you might hurt your own feelings.
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Post by: SemperMortis
Traditio wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:And if GW said Tactical Marines were 30 points each, would YOU continue using them.
Like Peregrine, I'd probably just stop playing, because 30 point tactical marines would cripple my army.
That said, I don't claim to play the army I do only because I like the models.
I certainly do like the models. But the ultimate reason I use sternguard, e.g., is because of their special ammunition.
If GW replaced Sternguard rules for Thousand Sons rules, I might just stop running sternguard.
In the Eldar codex if you increased the cost of Wraithguard they would not be used very much, not because they are over priced but because everything else in that codex is under priced.
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Post by: Traditio
SemperMortis wrote:In the Eldar codex if you increased the cost of Wraithguard they would not be used very much, not because they are over priced but because everything else in that codex is under priced.
Do you think a 60 point wraithguard with d-scythe would be fair?
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
You've seemed to of skimmed past my post, what about Dark Eldar covens? I use Talosi because I love the idea of something tanky in my fragile army. And yes, a Talosi is by far the most durable thing in my army,
A Wraith cannon wound will kill a Talos more than 50% of the time, that's a fact. I get no save unless my advance happens to bring me into cover, but since the Wraith Guard are in Wave Serpents more often than not he chooses the direction of fire so only area cover matters. Why is it that your unit gets to scare the gak outta my unit for less then half the price of the Corpsetheif Claw because it has the damage potential to wipe the entire formation in a single volly?
Of course if you hate Big Death Stars that much I could swap back to Venom Spam, but the people I played against seemed to think that wasn't very fun. Would you enjoy to play against Venom Spam more then the Talosi?
Also we *need* to make 'Enjoy the Wraithguard' a meme captioned upon a smug guys face.
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Post by: Traditio
I am TERRIBLY sorry! I saw your posting. I intended to answer it. Somehow, I just never did!
If you repost it, I'd be more than willing to answer it.
what about Dark Eldar covens? I use Talosi because I love the idea of something tanky in my fragile army. And yes, a Talosi is by far the most durable thing in my army,
I just don't know enough about the details of the Dark Eldar army to say one way or the other.
I will,however, say this.
The last dark eldar player against whom I played spammed splinter rifles (poisoned, rapidfire) and blasters (S8, AP 2) in open topped transports.
Splinter rifles wound wraithguard on 4s. Boltguns wound wraithguard on 6s.
Wraithguard should be the least of your worries as a dark eldar player.
Don't get me wrong. Yes, that unit of wraithguard is going to annihilate whatever of your units that they target. That said, you play a horde army. Whatever you use to kill the wraithguard that just killed your stuff, it'll probably be a fair trade.
A Wraith cannon wound will kill a Talos more than 50% of the time, that's a fact. I get no save unless my advance happens to bring me into cover, but since the Wraith Guard are in Wave Serpents more often than not he chooses the direction of fire so only area cover matters. Why is it that your unit gets to scare the gak outta my unit for less then half the price of the Corpse theif Claw because it has the damage potential to wipe the entire formation in a single volly?
1. I don't play Eldar. Wraithguard are not "my unit." I play Crimson Fist space marines.
2. A talos only costs 120 points without upgrades. The wraithguard cost 160 (a 5 man squad with d-scythes cost 210). If the wraithguard kills your talos and you subsequently splinter/blaster those wraithguard off the table, you've actually won out in terms of points costs.
Of course if you hate Big Death Stars that much I could swap back to Venom Spam, but the people I played against seemed to think that wasn't very fun. Would you enjoy to play against Venom Spam more then the Talosi?
The last game I played was against Raider and Venom spam, packed to the brim with warriors with splinter rifles and blasters.
I ended up losing the game, but it was a ton of fun.
I lost a bunch of marines, but vehicles were getting wrecked left and right.
Not to mention that the game ended with my chaplain chasing down a venom and wrecking it with a krak grenade. "IN THE NAME OF THE EMPRAH, TASTE MINE KRAK, YE UNCLEAN XENOS!"
Also we *need* to make 'Enjoy the Wraithguard' a meme captioned upon a smug guys face.
I know, right?
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Post by: Peregrine
Traditio wrote:I am TERRIBLY sorry! I saw your posting. I intended to answer it. Somehow, I just never did!
You can answer mine, while you're at it. Here's a link to it: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/687700.page#8596798
And then you can also apologize for telling me how I only take LRBTs to gain a "decisive tactical advantage" and must be lying about taking them because I like the fluff and models.
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Post by: Traditio
Peregrine wrote:And then you can also apologize for telling me how I only take LRBTs to gain a "decisive tactical advantage" and must be lying about taking them because I like the fluff and models.
That was probably uncalled for on my part.
I saw your painting blog. Your models look fantastic.
You probably do just like the fluff and aesthetic. Automatically Appended Next Post: A consideration:
I also think there would be fewer complaints if wraithguard couldn't hurt vehicles. This also makes sense, given their fluff. D-scythes are basically soul vacuum cleaners.
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Post by: Peregrine
Huh. Well, you did apologize, and I accept your apology. I would strongly suggest taking this as a lesson about speculating about someone's motivations for taking a particular unit.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
Or for taking a particular army.
I didn't slog all the way through 5th with my Tau to have somebody call for the entire army to be banned when I don't even own the models that they are most likely complaining about.
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Post by: Akiasura
Traditio wrote:Akiasura wrote:...are one of the strongest units in the game undercosted? Is that what you're asking?
Yes.
Yes of course they are.
Are you trolling?
No. Note, I wasn't denying that centurions are undercosted. I was simply offering the logical possibilities. Necessarily, based on your concessions, either grav centurions are undercosted, or else, wraithguard are fairly costed. [The assumption is that it is fair that a wraithguard should cost half of what a grav centurion costs.]
Or, both are undercosted since you can argue they are roughly equivalent in purpose with each one having advantages over the other.
The cents have access to a better force multiplier, so they are better.
Traditio wrote:
Have you never seen Cents with all the tools on the battlefield? They eliminate 2 units a turn of practically anything but large hordes every turn, and do it quite safely from most units outside of long range firepower. And they are incredibly tough against most counters for a variety of reasons.
Well, they do it from 24 inch range or less. That's the range of a grav cannon.
At any rate, simply noting that a unit is good, or even OP, in a combination isn't helpful in terms of identifying the appropriate fix. Should centurions have their costs increased? Should they not be able to ride in vehicles other than land raiders? Should they not be able to benefit from certain kinds of psychic abilities?
They can stand outside of the range of long-range weapons because of the teleport. They simply pick a side of the battlefield with LoS blocking terrain and delete two units a turn.
Heck, they can teleport to the back and just delete your long range weapons. Unless you want to drop all the way in the back of the field, most marine armies can't counter them without grav bikes or their own unit of cents.
You are discussing house rules here, which is not relevant to the discussion at all. The question asked if a certain unit is OP, not if certain house rules should be implemented.
Cents are OP due to the force multipliers they have in the current game state. WG are OP due to force multipliers they have in the current game state. Outside of house rules, the only difference is the degree to which they are broken, but both are way too strong.
Traditio wrote:
Let me just think out loud here.
A devastator marine is 14 ppm. Let's assume an additional 20 ppm for the twin-linked heavybolter and hurricane bolter, as well as the ability to fire two weapons in the same turn (as well as additional T and S): 34 ppm. How much is the suit of armor worth? Lets just call it an additional 6 points to make it an even 40 ppm. Double that for 2 wounds for 80 ppm. Full price for grav cannon and amp would make that 115 ppm.
Wraithguard should cost 50 ppm without d-scythes, 60 points with d-scythes?
No, you can't just double the wounds and double the point cost. Doubling wounds is not the same as an additional model (you get about half the fire power, and ID weapons don't effect you nearly as much).
The problem with each unit is the weapon they carry. You can ramp up the points to high levels to make them balanced, true, but really its the weapons and access to good movement that make them OP. No unit should do that much damage outside of melee.
Traditio wrote:
You can't say it's just allies, that is the problem. Dire Avengers, for example, aren't being complained about when allies are used. It's very few units in the Eldar codex that benefit from Allies, and WG happen to be one of them.
So your argument against allies being a problem is that it's not a problem when it's not used to pair up web-way portal and wraithguard (and other like things).
But you consider it entirely legitimate to assert that wraithguard are the problem, even though they are not a problem when not paired up with x, y and z?
Yes of course.
You can't make a blanket statement that allies are the problem, because not all allies are the problem, as I asserted.
You can make the statement that WG or Cents are OP, because they only exist on the TT in this combination. If they don't, they are no longer a problem and not worth discussing. Removing allies would make WG a little worse, but still quite strong. It wouldn't do anything to Cents. Clearly allies are not the issue...Tau, Eldar, and Necrons rarely even use allies in the current game and are considered some of the strongest armies around.
Look at top tier lists. You'll find they don't spam allies unless it's a weaker army, Daemons, or Marines for certain SCs. Allies are unfluffy but from a gameplay standpoint are not the greatest offenders for balance. Formations now are.
Traditio wrote:
And no one takes Cents with the land raider.
You take a teleporting libby or SC with them, or you don't really take them at all. No one uses a land raider.
Well maybe the problem isn't Cents. Maybe psychic powers (or at least certain psychic powers) are OP.
Okay, so now instead of it being 1-2 units, it's psychic powers and allies.
While psychic powers are indeed very strong, they require a unit to be strong in gameplay. You don't see people teleporting sternguard around the battlefield, and they could if they wanted to. No, instead they only use it on cents, and the power was largely unused until cents arrived.
I don't know why you are so set on labeling everything but the unit involved in the combination as OP.
Traditio wrote:
I have to ask, have you not seen Cents in the game?
I have not personally seen cents used in this fashion, though I am aware that the are often coupled with teleporting librarians.
Instead of saying "NERF CENTS," maybe the solution is "NERF PSYKERS."
Nerfing psykers would have more dramatic effects (like on CSM who need them badly). Nerfing cents just makes one unit weaker.
The latter seems easier.
Regardless this isn't the original discussion. You could argue both cents and psykers are OP, but you can't say the problem isn't with cents.
If I told you the problem with cents are the grav weapons, does that make cents suddenly okay? No, because they have access to grav, so who cares what the problem is unless you are creating house rules?
Traditio wrote:
Why are you limiting yourself to just that? That makes cents look much weaker than they are, you aren't getting an idea of what the game looks like at all using your methods.
They would be, if it weren't for psyker shenanigans.
Failed to answer the question. Try again.
Traditio wrote:
Assuming that unit lives against an eldar army, sure.
And that's the problem. The eldar codex has other things that are FAR more OP, and wraithguard deal with what those other OP things can't.
Which was never in question. Doesn't mean WG are fair.
Look at it this way. You make some house rules, which seems to be what you want, that nerfs Scatbikes, WK, and Spiders. What happens to the eldar armies then?
Iyanden would enter the field in a big way.
Traditio wrote:
Addendum:
At any rate, I do stand by this point:
I've played against an eldar list that didn't use wraithknights, scatter bikes or dark eldar. It did use wraithguard.
As have I, and the WG have been devastating. And I play eldar, tau, necrons, and marines. And I use the cent star.
Traditio wrote:
Dark reapers, farseer, warlocks, fire dragons, dire avengers, wraithguard on foot, rangers and the ranger HQ.
The wraithguard were not the units on the board dealing the majority of the damage.
Because they were on foot.
Your one game doesn't beat everyone elses' vastly greater experience. You've never even seen cents used, but comment on them freely. Have you seen WG used with all of their tools? I'm guessing no.
Traditio wrote:
I lost the game by a lot. Don't get me wrong. But it's not the wraithguard that was slaughtering my MSU Crimson Fists.
Eldritch storms and dark reaper blasts? That's a different story.
Wraithguard? Not really.
Dark reapers killed you? You didn't take pods or something?
Dark reapers aren't very strong, they are very easy to kill. You're not helping your argument.
Honestly, this reminds me of the mutilator thread.
You had two camps.
One camp played a very competitive game with Centstars, Scatbikes, and Decurions. They thought mutilators were garbage.
The other camp played a very casual game, with cents on foot, dire avenger spam, and LRBT spam. They thought mutilators were fine.
The second group was unable to convince the first since, for whatever reason, they were unable to post a battle report featuring mutilators going up against anything resembling a competitive list. It annoyed them quite a bit.
This is similar. You seem interested in identifying what exactly is OP about everything, which only matters for houserules. This is not the forum for house rules, and you never stated that is your intention. For most players, it won't matter if WG on foot are garbage if they are commonly taken with a WS or De transport. All they know is these fast moving devastating flamethrowers are killing everything they touch.
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Post by: Iur_tae_mont
A Town Called Malus wrote:Or for taking a particular army.
I didn't slog all the way through 5th with my Tau to have somebody call for the entire army to be banned when I don't even own the models that they are most likely complaining about.
I remember those dark days.
And then I sold my Tau right after the Codex dropped to start off Playing Chaos because playing a good army scares and confuses me at this point.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
Iur_tae_mont wrote: A Town Called Malus wrote:Or for taking a particular army. I didn't slog all the way through 5th with my Tau to have somebody call for the entire army to be banned when I don't even own the models that they are most likely complaining about. I remember those dark days. And then I sold my Tau right after the Codex dropped to start off Playing Chaos because playing a good army scares and confuses me at this point. Ha, I know what you mean. Probably just nostalgia but I'm sure I had more fun in 5th than now, even with the handicap. Then 6th was fun before the new Tau codex, back when our vehicles still could move and shoot effectively, Broadsides railguns hadn't suffered a sudden loss of power which made them useless etc. Since that 6th codex though it has just become about bringing in bigger battlesuits and the Tau lost all of the mechanised modern army feel they previously had.
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Post by: Martel732
What they've done to Tau armor is criminal. Those models are so good-looking.
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Post by: GreyCrow
Martel732 wrote:What they've done to Tau armor is criminal. Those models are so good-looking.
I would love to see and play against more Hammerheads and Devilfishes.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
Well if you have a receptive group then you could propose bringing back some of the 4th ed upgrades. Vehicle Multi-Tracker: Vehicle may fire its weapons as if it were a Fast Vehicle. Vehicle Target Lock: The vehicle may split fire with its weapons. Also change the twin-linked burst cannon on the Hammerhead back into two burst cannons so it's at least a possible choice of secondary weapon system compared to the SMS.
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Post by: Dantes_Baals
I'm gonna chime in and say that they are generally undercosted and D weapons sure as feth do not belong on non-LoW models. Especially at 32 ppm. The D cannons can be out played, but the D scythe are OP as feth. T6, 3+ armor non-LoW models, 32 ppm, ignores cover flame templates? Yea feth no. The D cannons are OP for the same reasons absent the ignores cover, but just because they arent on par with the most OP model in the dex doesnt mean D cannon wraithguard arent. Especially when paired with a skimmer transport (and we aren't even talking raider/Web way portal shenanigans yet). Honestly the only models I have a problem with in the dex have "wraith" in their unit name excepting scatbikes. We all know the Knight is criminally undercosted, but the wraith guard and scat bikes can be taken as troops and that make them much worse IMO. That and the Apocalypse blast Storm thong at ap2. Even the lowliest model in the dex can rend out a model 7 times its cost and then run back into cover. Saim Hann and especially Iyanden need to be toned the hell down. Even then you have an entire army that rends. IMO the only non-OP units in the dex are aspect Warriors, shining Spears, farseers and the tanks.
feth Phil Kelly 2 times because every time he writes a dex for his precious eldar the game goes to hell. Look to past editions. How many times did eldar break the meta/40k? Keep in mind this same asshat wrote the CSM book that is currently in the running with Orks and BA for worst book in the game.
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Post by: SemperMortis
Dantes_Baals wrote:I'm gonna chime in and say that they are generally undercosted and D weapons sure as feth do not belong on non- LoW models. Especially at 32 ppm. The D cannons can be out played, but the D scythe are OP as feth. T6, 3+ armor non- LoW models, 32 ppm, ignores cover flame templates? Yea feth no. The D cannons are OP for the same reasons absent the ignores cover, but just because they arent on par with the most OP model in the dex doesnt mean D cannon wraithguard arent. Especially when paired with a skimmer transport (and we aren't even talking raider/Web way portal shenanigans yet). Honestly the only models I have a problem with in the dex have "wraith" in their unit name excepting scatbikes. We all know the Knight is criminally undercosted, but the wraith guard and scat bikes can be taken as troops and that make them much worse IMO. That and the Apocalypse blast Storm thong at ap2. Even the lowliest model in the dex can rend out a model 7 times its cost and then run back into cover. Saim Hann and especially Iyanden need to be toned the hell down. Even then you have an entire army that rends. IMO the only non- OP units in the dex are aspect Warriors, shining Spears, farseers and the tanks.
feth Phil Kelly 2 times because every time he writes a dex for his precious eldar the game goes to hell. Look to past editions. How many times did eldar break the meta/ 40k? Keep in mind this same asshat wrote the CSM book that is currently in the running with Orks and BA for worst book in the game.
Don't forget Firedragons and their AP0 Melta guns. Nothing more insulting then watching your expensive vehicles explode every time those D-bags come to close to you.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Yeah...much like Wraithguard...there was zero reason they needed that AP0...that was a straight up brainfart buff for no good reason, and at no additional points of course.
Coupled with access to BS5 (also for no additional points) they have almost *twice* the probability of inflicting an Explodes result on an AV14 tank that they did before.
stopcallingmechief wrote:
The kids table is over there------->, feel free to play there. Just absolute trash ideas. Back to one in three specuals on a bike? You mean back to the era of NEVER seeing a eldar bike on the table. What a joke
Did you play this game before...like...at all? Bikes were frequently used. They were excellent objective nabbers. They just werent spammed the way they are now, but they very much saw table use...
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Post by: Vaktathi
2 seconds of searching, 3rd overall/top Eldar 2014 BAO Eldar List - includes two units of Jet bikes.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/607894.page
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Post by: stopcallingmechief
Is third a win? Is that the new math?
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
stopcallingmechief wrote: Vaktathi wrote:Yeah...much like Wraithguard...there was zero reason they needed that AP0...that was a straight up brainfart buff for no good reason, and at no additional points of course.
Coupled with access to BS5 (also for no additional points) they have almost *twice* the probability of inflicting an Explodes result on an AV14 tank that they did before.
stopcallingmechief wrote:
The kids table is over there------->, feel free to play there. Just absolute trash ideas. Back to one in three specuals on a bike? You mean back to the era of NEVER seeing a eldar bike on the table. What a joke
Did you play this game before...like...at all? Bikes were frequently used. They were excellent objective nabbers. They just werent spammed the way they are now, but they very much saw table use...
Go find me some major tourney winning eldar lists from 6th. U didnt need bikes when waveserpents and dire avengers with obj secured ruled.
Top 16 in Adepticon 2013.
Top 16 in Adepticon 2014.
Will keep looking later.
You said they'd never be played. We showed that high-placing lists in 6th used Eldar Jetbikes. You can't even admit that you're wrong, can you?
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
Well, they did better than any other Eldar list so your claim that Jetbikes aren't needed when Wave Serpents existed is still false.
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Post by: stopcallingmechief
Do i need to define what win means?
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Post by: Vaktathi
Ok, if we're going to weasle out of this by being pedantic about this and only consider events with Eldar as 1st overall (where the difference between 1st and 12th can be a single die roll) and disrgarding top rankings and top in faction, then then I'm just not going to put in that kind of work to search which events had only Eldar as #1.
We can look at the 2014 LVO however, of the 4 Eldar armies finishing in the top 8, 3 included Jetbikes in their list.
Either way, moving goalposts aside, Jetbikes were extremely common before they got their heavy weapons buff, and its removal would not make them unseen on tables.
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Post by: Kaiyanwang
No, but you need to address the points made by the other posters because you, my friend, did not.
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Post by: stopcallingmechief
I said find me winning lists. Nobody found any and i could do my own research and find high placing eldar lists with no bikes but frankly im at work and dont care to pander to randoms on the internet. If you dont like my my opinion, to bad, regular bikes with 1/3 where trash.
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Post by: Kaiyanwang
stopcallingmechief wrote:I said find me winning lists. Nobody found any and i could do my own research and find high placing eldar lists with no bikes but frankly im at work and dont care to pander to randoms on the internet. If you dont like my my opinion, to bad, regular bikes with 1/3 where trash.
The point was to show competitiveness of the scatbikes then, and people did show it. So yeah, better do not go further.
And if an unit of jetbikes needs to have an 1:1 ratio of heavy weapons as troop choice to be viable, means the game is broken beyond redemption and/or the playerbase deserves all the crap GW churns out.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Arbitrarily defining only lists that placed first overall is narrowing your pool to statistical irrelevancy. People brought out plenty of examples of top placing lists in a myriad of events showing that Jetbikes were frequently used by very high placing armies (that placed higher than most other factions entirely) in large numbers of events.
You're being pedantic and trying to weasle out of your original contention, which was that nobody ever ran Eldar Jetbikes before they could each take a scatterlaser.
This is demonstrably false, and evidence in the form of many army lists from different events placing in the top 10 prove that assertion is false by commonly (if not *usually*) including Jetbikes.
Nobody found any and i could do my own research and find high placing eldar lists with no bikes but frankly im at work and dont care to pander to randoms on the internet.
So...in other words people called you out on your bs and you're declaring victory and taking your toys and leaving after you moved the goalposts to a statistically irrelevant sample size.
Nice going there...chief.
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Post by: Martel732
Jetbikes were used VERY frequently before 7th. Which is actually a good argument as to why they needed no buff at all.
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Post by: niv-mizzet
You can have the most ridic list with the best general and still lose in the finals because your warlord's squad failed some dangerous terrain, failed their 2++ rerollable's, failed morale, and fled the field with an 18" flee.
Or you could have been completely trouncing them but they tank shocked you off objectives with their last few models and then the game ended t5.
When top table lists play each other piloted by good generals, it really does often come down to a dice-off to win. And a single loss on your record can knock you all the way back to the general crowd. At Wargamescon, I got knocked all the way to 8th from my loss in the final game. And I'm not trying to say Ben wasn't a really good player or anything (because he is,) but he would've had a VERY hard time winning if he hadn't won the turn-roll-off and chosen to go 2nd.
Long story short, any list in the top 20% usually could've easily won the whole shebang in a slightly altered universe, so calling out the single winning list as the only list worth looking at is incredibly short-sighted, and indicative of a person not experienced with tournament play.
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Post by: ALEXisAWESOME
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Lets have a look at them from a None-Marine stand point. I play Dark Eldar, specifically Coven Dark Eldar with Harlequin allies. In a game against Wraithguard my Corpse Theif Claw is a liability, I have to put everything I have into ensuring those Wraithguard don't fire, not even once. That isn't easy, haywire scourges can reliably glance but 4+ jink save means I need to dedicate at least 2 of my 3 Scourge units to that single Wave Serpent to reliably crack it open. Then I need to pour enough splinter rounds into them that they fall down.
I have the options to take the Wraithguard down, but it seems like I have to do so much more work then the Eldar player does. If he gets to fire he will likely kill 2-3 Talosi in a single volly, if i dedicate the a large proportion of my army into taking them down I only succeed in saving my Talosi. How OP they are I don't think I'm allowed an opinion on, there is a sort of 'New codex elitism' that dictates I don't get a say because my army sucks, but i feel they are VERY badly designed. Autokill guns, fast durable transports and not a bad area denial (18'' in all directions) seems to suck a lot of the nuance and skill out of how Eldar used to play.
Repost.
Your right you don't know much about Dark Eldar if you think we're a horde army!!!
Your right of course, Dark Eldar have as much trouble with killing Wraithguard as we do with killing marines. What we *do* have trouble with is killing a Wave Serpent. AV 12 and 4+ jink with serpent shields makes single shot Str 8 lances all but worthless to shoot at you with leaving only Haywire Blasters as the only viable option to take one down. A Talosi is a 4 wound T7 3+/ FnP Monstrous Creature that is taken in a Corpse Thief Claw formation, allowing a single unit to consist of 5 models and giving them all scout. I play it because I'd like something different then MSU Venom Spam, which many people consider unfun to play against. Yet this unit is a total liability when Wraithguard are on the table, as each Str D hit is likely to kill a Talosi singlehandedly. It just seems like exceedingly bad design for a unit to be able to force my entire army to concentrate on bringing down that Wave Serpent (needing an average of 6 glances, so 9 Haywire shots, so all 3 of my Scourge units to reliably take it down) and it's occupants otherwise it will delete the most durable force I can possibly field. God help me if you take 2 serpents full! Or worse yet an allied Webway portal! Zero counter play. Might as well play rock paper scissors in that case.
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Post by: Tyel
5 Wraithguard will on average only do 6 wounds to Talos, killing 2.
That is 240 points (depending on load out) for the cost of 255 (naked Archon) or 270 (Wave Serpent).
Its a good exchange but not atypical of the sort of returns 7.5 Codexes get if they put their units into the thing they are designed to kill.
If you didn't take Talosi the Wraithguard would be a complete liability. If they blow up a solitary Venom then who cares? They are almost certainly going to then be wiped out next turn.
I agree taking out Wave Serpents is too difficult (especially given DE's weak anti-armour choices) but thats been the case for many years.
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Post by: Traditio
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Lets have a look at them from a None-Marine stand point. I play Dark Eldar, specifically Coven Dark Eldar with Harlequin allies. In a game against Wraithguard my Corpse Theif Claw is a liability, I have to put everything I have into ensuring those Wraithguard don't fire, not even once.
Why? There is such a thing as "acceptable losses."
The mentality shouldn't be "lose no models." The mentality should be "mitigate losses to 210 points or less."
Your right you don't know much about Dark Eldar if you think we're a horde army!!!
Relative to marines? They are. Warriors are only 8 ppm.
Raiders are only 55 ppm.
Venoms are only 55 ppm.
What we *do* have trouble with is killing a Wave Serpent. AV 12 and 4+ jink with serpent shields makes single shot Str 8 lances all but worthless to shoot at you with leaving only Haywire Blasters as the only viable option to take one down.
Again, I don't know that much about the dark eldar army.
The last person I played against consistently was taking down rhinos with a relatively high number of hayway shots at semi-close to medium range.
It made using the flamers on my assault marines against his open topped transports all the sweeter.
A Talosi is a 4 wound T7 3+/FnP Monstrous Creature that is taken in a Corpse Thief Claw formation, allowing a single unit to consist of 5 models and giving them all scout. I play it because I'd like something different then MSU Venom Spam, which many people consider unfun to play against.
Again, I don't know enough about the dark eldar codex to comment.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Wait. They're only 4 wounds? Good luck to one surviving a round of D-Cannons to the face...
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Post by: SemperMortis
Tyel wrote:5 Wraithguard will on average only do 6 wounds to Talos, killing 2.
That is 240 points (depending on load out) for the cost of 255 (naked Archon) or 270 (Wave Serpent).
Its a good exchange but not atypical of the sort of returns 7.5 Codexes get if they put their units into the thing they are designed to kill.
If you didn't take Talosi the Wraithguard would be a complete liability. If they blow up a solitary Venom then who cares? They are almost certainly going to then be wiped out next turn.
I agree taking out Wave Serpents is too difficult (especially given DE's weak anti-armour choices) but thats been the case for many years.
Unless those wraithguard are armed with D-Scythes as they almost always are. Then it becomes a matter of how they are positioned relative to the Talos Formation. If they hit 3 models with their flame templates each or on average hit 3 then those 3 are dead. IF they somehow manage to get 4 or even god forbid the whole unit of 5 (really hard to do) then all 5 are dead. Strength D-1, Ignores cover AND is AP2, So no jink, no cover of any kind, no armor save of any kind and you can't use FNP against D hits so gg.
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