Galas wrote: If AoS has teach me anything, is that the first year they will push to no end this new Primaris Marines and some kind of Chaos Antagonist, but after that they will began to do again good things like the lovely Kharadron Overlords!
Man everything they have been releasing has been fantastic. even during the hard AOS push. (model wise) rules im not 100% fluent enough too judge
to be fair i cant get enough of those griffin puppies.
ImAGeek wrote: On the plus side, Sanguinius could make a really really cool model.
Could being the operative word. I'm not sure I trust GW to pull it off, Sanguinius absolutely would not suit the mashed about potato face style of a plastic kit, he needs resin to pull off IMO.
I am fine with them changing any rules, but changing iconic fluff, i will need some time to process this. I understand it has changed before, but at the moment it is such an iconic piece of 40k history, i mean ........
/rant
I can certainly see the possibility of old marines very slowly getting phased out over like a dozen years. I don't think this is a bad way to do it tough.
I wouldn't have a problem in like 8 years when 10th edition coming along, another retcon would just merge the marines and puff primaris marines never happened, indominitus crusade is just one of many ordinary crusades.
I really am curious about tomorrow article tough, that should answer some questions about how many armies would function(summoners, outflankers, deepstrikers)
Galas wrote: If AoS has teach me anything, is that the first year they will push to no end this new Primaris Marines and some kind of Chaos Antagonist, but after that they will began to do again good things like the lovely Kharadron Overlords!
Man everything they have been releasing has been fantastic. even during the hard AOS push. (model wise) rules im not 100% fluent enough too judge
to be fair i cant get enough of those griffin puppies.
Yeah, they are fantastic if you like Stormcast Eternals or Space Marines. I'm not discussing about the quality of the sculpts. Heck, I'm even guilty of buying in the Bloodbound of AoS But the thing I like more of warhammer is how variety it has. So the idea of months and months of power-armour releases don't interest me much (Only if they are womans with a bob-cut hair)
Lysenis wrote: Hmmmm what if... (we all love this game don't we ^_~)
Chaos gods pieced Horus's should together though the pieces of his humanity are now gone. Over 10,000 years they developed the perfect Chaos.... King... For a king of chaos he would be. The only entities greater than him are the God's of Chaos themselves. Daemon Princes bow, and Abbadon quakes. It turns out that the creation of the giant rift splitting the Imperium was actually caused by the revival of this being. Of this King of Chaos.
Now, the other sleeping primarchs are rising. Those not dead are coming out of hiding, those with a soul saved by the Emperor and pushed into a form to protect and say it's children. The emperor stirs in his seat and the Imperium feels the rumbles out to the fringes of the Galaxy.
All the while, a being trapped in the warp, greater than the Chaos gods stirs
Sounds like Archeon the Everchosen, Grand Marshal of Chaos Undivided, decided to come to the future for a bit.
That is what Horus represents but on such a grand scale of betrayal...
As for Abbadon filling that role, heh.... I don't think he makes even a quarter of the high end Daemon Princess grovel. The King of Chaos... He would make the Lord of Change and all those higher up Daemon Princes his underlings.
Galas wrote: If AoS has teach me anything, is that the first year they will push to no end this new Primaris Marines and some kind of Chaos Antagonist, but after that they will began to do again good things like the lovely Kharadron Overlords!
True - they need their bread and butter, but maybe the KO sellout will change their minds a bit.
ImAGeek wrote: On the plus side, Sanguinius could make a really really cool model.
Could being the operative word. I'm not sure I trust GW to pull it off, Sanguinius absolutely would not suit the mashed about potato face style of a plastic kit, he needs resin to pull off IMO.
As someone not terribly familiar with Sanguinius could you explain why?
ImAGeek wrote: On the plus side, Sanguinius could make a really really cool model.
Could being the operative word. I'm not sure I trust GW to pull it off, Sanguinius absolutely would not suit the mashed about potato face style of a plastic kit, he needs resin to pull off IMO.
As someone not terribly familiar with Sanguinius could you explain why?
He is the most beautiful of the primarchs, with a very slender and femenine face. In plastic thats is very difficult to accomplish. (I think he said it for that reason)
He is the most beautiful of the primarchs, with a very slender and femenine face. In plastic thats is very difficult to accomplish. (I think he said it for that reason)
ImAGeek wrote: On the plus side, Sanguinius could make a really really cool model.
Could being the operative word. I'm not sure I trust GW to pull it off, Sanguinius absolutely would not suit the mashed about potato face style of a plastic kit, he needs resin to pull off IMO.
As someone not terribly familiar with Sanguinius could you explain why?
He is the most beautiful of the primarchs, with a very slender and femenine face. In plastic thats is very difficult to accomplish. (I think he said it for that reason)
Fulgrim would have a word...
But the concern about the difficulty... Sanguinius would be about Alarielle's size no doubt, and she looks many parts femenine and slender.
ImAGeek wrote: On the plus side, Sanguinius could make a really really cool model.
Could being the operative word. I'm not sure I trust GW to pull it off, Sanguinius absolutely would not suit the mashed about potato face style of a plastic kit, he needs resin to pull off IMO.
As someone not terribly familiar with Sanguinius could you explain why?
Organic surfaces (feathers,) flowing robes and subtle facial features. Things that plastic/GW sculptors don't do all that well IMO.
Plus we'll get random swirly gak to support him to make it look like he's flying and very likely typical GW lack of restraint on greeble.
None of which means that a plastic kit can't/won't be great, but I fear the odds are stacked against it. Not that it'll matter if you're 12 and collect BA, but for me I'd rather see the subtlety and restraint that FW could impart in a resin kit way more than what will likely result from the GW treatment.
Just look at the RG differences to see what I mean.
v0iddrgn wrote: Guess this means not as many narrative games will be played out in 8th?
Depends. The scenarios/missions included will be a driving factor. The Ambush scenario previewed earlier lends itself pretty well to narrative games, and I believe they're bringing back Meatgrinder as well.
Power Levels seem like they might be better for narrative type long term campaigns that I've seen FLGS run instead of points. Friendlier for newer and more casual players to jump in with.
v0iddrgn wrote: Guess this means not as many narrative games will be played out in 8th?
Depends. The scenarios/missions included will be a driving factor. The Ambush scenario previewed earlier lends itself pretty well to narrative games, and I believe they're bringing back Meatgrinder as well.
Power Levels seem like they might be better for narrative type long term campaigns that I've seen FLGS run instead of points. Friendlier for newer and more casual players to jump in with.
You could also design a Campaign system with an injury table....
v0iddrgn wrote: Guess this means not as many narrative games will be played out in 8th?
Depends. The scenarios/missions included will be a driving factor. The Ambush scenario previewed earlier lends itself pretty well to narrative games, and I believe they're bringing back Meatgrinder as well.
Power Levels seem like they might be better for narrative type long term campaigns that I've seen FLGS run instead of points. Friendlier for newer and more casual players to jump in with.
You could also design a Campaign system with an injury table....
LOL I meant the fact that these rumored fluff changes seem to be very unpopular.
v0iddrgn wrote: Guess this means not as many narrative games will be played out in 8th?
Depends. The scenarios/missions included will be a driving factor. The Ambush scenario previewed earlier lends itself pretty well to narrative games, and I believe they're bringing back Meatgrinder as well.
Power Levels seem like they might be better for narrative type long term campaigns that I've seen FLGS run instead of points. Friendlier for newer and more casual players to jump in with.
You could also design a Campaign system with an injury table....
LOL I meant the fact that these rumored fluff changes seem to be very unpopular.
Make them popular! Work them up to a BIG ARMEGGEDON BATTLE OF DOOOOOOOMMMMMM
Have prizes, watch marine squads gain veteran status or get obliterated. Take a leafed from SW: Armada's Corelian Conflict campaign.
Use power levels and various missions and make it fun!
v0iddrgn wrote: Guess this means not as many narrative games will be played out in 8th?
Depends. The scenarios/missions included will be a driving factor. The Ambush scenario previewed earlier lends itself pretty well to narrative games, and I believe they're bringing back Meatgrinder as well.
Power Levels seem like they might be better for narrative type long term campaigns that I've seen FLGS run instead of points. Friendlier for newer and more casual players to jump in with.
You could also design a Campaign system with an injury table....
LOL I meant the fact that these rumored fluff changes seem to be very unpopular.
Bah, these fluff rumors are just rumors. People complain they will leave all the time. They either return (like me... From a 5 year hiatus) or they don't.
Enjoy the game!
On changes and rumors before I get snipped by the great Alpharius. The Tau changes makes me happy. I expect Toughness to be reworked a bit and wounds/armor. Also games will have more survival since armor saves are more of a thing
I can live with the Sanguinor being the Spirit of Sanguinus. Even reviving for X means all the Primarchs. Yeah, its scrapping the deep end of the barrel...
But retconing this?!
How can they live with that?
I suppose that they aren't gonna Retcon to bring Ollanius Pius back, no?
Man, if they give Blood Angels the rest of the C:SM models, I will be all over that. Probably a Stormhawk or two and some Assault Centurions. If the Angel comes back, I will be mad at first, but if his model is good, I will be mad while I am painting him.
I am wondering if the storm surge will keep it's current toughness/ save profile. T6 3+ isn't too bad, and if a 6 hullpoint knight went up to 20+ wounds, I can imagine an 8 wound monster going up to at least 24-26.
Blowing off weapons and destroying mobility to help assault elements keep it pinned down are the most likely damage penalties.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I am wondering if the storm surge will keep it's current toughness/ save profile. T6 3+ isn't too bad, and if a 6 hullpoint knight went up to 20+ wounds, I can imagine an 8 wound monster going up to at least 24-26.
Blowing off weapons and destroying mobility to help assault elements keep it pinned down are the most likely damage penalties.
There is almost 0 chance that the storm surge will have more wounds than a knight. 7th wounds are not equivalent to HPs.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I am wondering if the storm surge will keep it's current toughness/ save profile. T6 3+ isn't too bad, and if a 6 hullpoint knight went up to 20+ wounds, I can imagine an 8 wound monster going up to at least 24-26.
Blowing off weapons and destroying mobility to help assault elements keep it pinned down are the most likely damage penalties.
I'm pretty sure they said that Knights had some of the most wounds. Guessing Stormsurge might be about the same.
It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.
With the ten weapons and politely excusing itself from close combat, it had better be weak, or double the Knights points.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
Stormsurge wasn't that great at 440, at least alone. Overshadowed by riptide wing imho. Not that that has any relavance to 8th at all.
That said, all those MC's living large in previous editions will now have to live with degrading stats over time. So who knows what the situation will look like for any of them at this point (other than the Morkanaut of course).
Ronin_eX wrote: That said, all those MC's living large in previous editions will now have to live with degrading stats over time. So who knows what the situation will look like for any of them at this point (other than the Morkanaut of course).
Optimistically, it won't be that much changing, aside from makign them more in line with other MC's (which is now a null classification). Here's to smaller MC's lasting longer and making it across the board.
With degrading statlines and vehicles having higher numbers of wounds most of the big models will likely see an increase in their wound profiles.
I have a feeling that the Necron Obelisk may have the highest number of wounds save for any of the plastic models. Warlord Titan is likely to have an insane number in excess of 30.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
What a free attack to Tau players. I assume that if paying appropiate points for stuff is anathema to the average Tau player, paying for stuff at all is anathema to the average Space Marine Player
Personally, if they balance the Stormsurge maybe I'll buy one. Its too much of a powerhouse to use one on my casual enviroment, but I don't dislike the model. At least is more fluffy than the Riptide. A mobile missile platform, not a Gundam.
I suspect that knights will have one of the highest wound pools, matched or close to the same as a Mork/Gorkanaught, with toughness and save being primarily how GW determines how tough something can be, coupled with how it degrades.
Look at things like the Mork/Gorkanought stats listed previously. It's T:8 with 18 wounds and a 3+ save.
Ork vehicles, historically, were ramshackle and that made them peculiarly resilient in a lot of ways (Looking at the Stompa, as an example). I suspect that the Stormsurge will be a little less tough by way of fewer wounds (maybe 12 to 14), and reduced toughness (T:6 or T:7), but with a better save (I expect 2+).
Similarly, I suspect that Wraithknights will have an unusually high toughness, such as T:9 or T:10, but with a 3+ save and possibly fewer wounds (16, or maybe fewer).
The Imperial Knight will have higher wounds than either, but perhaps only T:6 to T:8 at the highest and a 3+ save, BUT backed up by an Ion Shield invulnerable save to help.
Each will be resilient in their own way that is distinctly different from one another. I like that, as it makes each one it's own animal to deal with. High RoF weapons with the ability to punch through modest armor (Assault Cannons, Grav maybe) would be best suited for tackling something like a Stormsurge by pouring wounds onto the target while assault elements close in to finish it off in melee, whereas Lascannons would be best suited for hitting the Gork/Morkanaught and carving chunks of wounds out at long range with it's weaker base save of 3+.
It's a brave new world and I for one look forward to seeing how it plays.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
Stormsurge wasn't that great at 440, at least alone. Overshadowed by riptide wing imho. Not that that has any relavance to 8th at all.
Oh for sure. Which raises an interesting problem. How do they make the $150 Stormsurge worth taking instead of three $85 Riptides? Becausein 7th, they made the 3x $85 more viable (for obvious reasons). If they don't make the $150 SS powerful, no one will buy it (it is ugly as sin...), but if they make it too powerful, no one will buy 3x $85 Riptides.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
What a free attack to Tau players. I assume that if paying appropiate points for stuff is anathema to the average Tau player, paying for stuff at all is anathema to the average Space Marine Player
Personally, if they balance the Stormsurge maybe I'll buy one. Its too much of a powerhouse to use one on my casual enviroment, but I don't dislike the model. At least is more fluffy than the Riptide. A mobile missile platform, not a Gundam.
You realize that without free transports, Space Marines are middle tier at best, right? For the most part, the vast majority of their units are absolutely garbage.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
What a free attack to Tau players. I assume that if paying appropiate points for stuff is anathema to the average Tau player, paying for stuff at all is anathema to the average Space Marine Player
Personally, if they balance the Stormsurge maybe I'll buy one. Its too much of a powerhouse to use one on my casual enviroment, but I don't dislike the model. At least is more fluffy than the Riptide. A mobile missile platform, not a Gundam.
You realize that without free transports, Space Marines are middle tier at best, right? For the most part, the vast majority of their units are absolutely garbage.
Welcome to Warhammer 40k, where "OP" codex only have OP 1-2 units or 1-2 detachment. Did you really think that Firewarriors, Vespids, Kroots, Krootox, Hammerheads, Skyrais or Piranhas are gonna burn Terra down? Riptidewing, Stormsurge and Commander with Drone-net do the trick for Tau. The rest of the Codex? From average to totally useless. Just like Space Marines with Librarian-Conclave, Deathbarkstar, and a Forgeworld's production capacity of free transports.
But this is offtopic, so I'll drop the topic here.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I am wondering if the storm surge will keep it's current toughness/ save profile. T6 3+ isn't too bad, and if a 6 hullpoint knight went up to 20+ wounds, I can imagine an 8 wound monster going up to at least 24-26.
Blowing off weapons and destroying mobility to help assault elements keep it pinned down are the most likely damage penalties.
There is almost 0 chance that the storm surge will have more wounds than a knight. 7th wounds are not equivalent to HPs.
Why not? Lord of Change went from 5 to 16, more than triple. Who knows what any particular MC might get.
Rules are model driven when it comes to wounds. Lord of Change having way more wounds than a Great Unclean One because of the model size. That sort of thing.
I'm sure all the big tau kits will have impressive levels of wounds. Everything still seems within the same ball park as Age of Sigmar and all the big stuff there has loads of wounds. Then add in the high damage ranged weapon in 40k and I think we'll see some even higher than the highest in AoS (Archaon at 20).
So anyway, I hope Dark Angels get Stormravens. Deathwing Stormravens.
Hopefully tomorrow's article will make my deep strike heavy armies happy. Seriously, all but one(my Skitarii), favors dropping dudes in drop pods and jump packs.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I am wondering if the storm surge will keep it's current toughness/ save profile. T6 3+ isn't too bad, and if a 6 hullpoint knight went up to 20+ wounds, I can imagine an 8 wound monster going up to at least 24-26.
Blowing off weapons and destroying mobility to help assault elements keep it pinned down are the most likely damage penalties.
I'm pretty sure they said that Knights had some of the most wounds. Guessing Stormsurge might be about the same.
But the Stormsurge is bigger. With gargantuan creatures and superheavy vehicles the baseline is 6 wounds or hullpoints.
It will have more health than a knight, but the knight will either be T8 3+ or T7 2+ instead of T6 3+
The real question for is after the primarchs are all back what kind of shenanigans are gonna happen to give tue Gray Knights and the Custodians thier own āprimarchsā...
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.
With the ten weapons and politely excusing itself from close combat, it had better be weak, or double the Knights points.
Anyone can "politely excuse themselves" from close combat.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.
With the ten weapons and politely excusing itself from close combat, it had better be weak, or double the Knights points.
Anyone can "politely excuse themselves" from close combat.
It's in the "Movement" article.
The Stormsurge is unique in that it can excuse itself, and then shoot right away, from the rules we saw.
Whilst others are begrudgingly step aside, the Stormsurge politely excuses itself
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
I expect a Knight to end up as T8 or 9, if the Stormsurge keeps it's current T6 then even with the same number of wounds that makes for a pretty serious difference in survivability.
With the ten weapons and politely excusing itself from close combat, it had better be weak, or double the Knights points.
Anyone can "politely excuse themselves" from close combat.
It's in the "Movement" article.
The Stormsurge is unique in that it can excuse itself, and then shoot right away, from the rules we saw.
Whilst others are begrudgingly step aside, the Stormsurge politely excuses itself
It's unique now in that we have had that explicitly stated.
But in the same article we had "Fly" claimed to do the same thing for Crisis Suits, so don't start counting on Stormsurges to be amazing yet.
You have missed the point, if Crisis suits can do the same thing, then they should also be a wet paper bag, or pay for the abilities. (Not nearly as much so, as they don't have 10 guns etc).
Rippy wrote: You have missed the point, if Crisis suits can do the same thing, then they should also be a wet paper bag, or pay for the abilities. (Not nearly as much so, as they don't have 10 guns etc).
I think you've missed my point as well.
You're making an assumption that this is, somehow, a thing that will be exclusive to the Stormsurge.
I'm saying that it's too early to say that. Stormsurge is the first "big" thing we've really had looked at, and in an article with some very questionable writing.
Yes, I am quite looking forward to the potential tactics in 8th. "Do I charge in now, or risk waiting a turn of firing to surround the Stormsurge next turn" for example.
You're making an assumption that this is, somehow, a thing that will be exclusive to the Stormsurge.
I'm saying that it's too early to say that. Stormsurge is the first "big" thing we've really had looked at, and in an article with some very questionable writing.
I didn't miss your point, you took the fact I said the word "unique" and made my point about that, when it wasn't about that.
Yes, I shouldn't have said unique, but the point stands that it can excuse itself, then shoot. It should pay heavily for that ability, the 10 guns, and if it has armor etc, OR be like a wet paper towel.
Anyway, that is enough on this topic, as it has gone off the rails. Please PM me if you wish to discuss my incorrect use of the word "unique" further.
Yes, I am quite looking forward to the potential tactics in 8th. "Do I charge in now, or risk waiting a turn of firing to surround the Stormsurge next turn" for example.
The extra 3" move could wrap you around far enough that it's huge base can no longer move without clipping an enemy, but yea the risk needs to be weighed if you're too far out.
Mark my words, units with the keyword Fly will be able to jump to their destination or ignore intervening models. It might not be able to avoid a blob, but it will be waltzing out of combat from units like Terminators or other high point, low model assault units.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
Stormsurge wasn't that great at 440, at least alone. Overshadowed by riptide wing imho. Not that that has any relavance to 8th at all.
Oh for sure. Which raises an interesting problem. How do they make the $150 Stormsurge worth taking instead of three $85 Riptides? Becausein 7th, they made the 3x $85 more viable (for obvious reasons). If they don't make the $150 SS powerful, no one will buy it (it is ugly as sin...), but if they make it too powerful, no one will buy 3x $85 Riptides.
casvalremdeikun wrote: It will almost definitely have more wounds, but it won't exceed the Knight. It has five times the weapons of a Knight, so if it is as durable as a Knight, it is going to be paying for it. I doubt a 500 pt Stormsurge would be palatable for the average Tau player (paying appropriate points for stuff is an anathema to them in the first place), so it is going to have to sacrifice in one way or another to get that amount of shooting.
What a free attack to Tau players. I assume that if paying appropiate points for stuff is anathema to the average Tau player, paying for stuff at all is anathema to the average Space Marine Player
Personally, if they balance the Stormsurge maybe I'll buy one. Its too much of a powerhouse to use one on my casual enviroment, but I don't dislike the model. At least is more fluffy than the Riptide. A mobile missile platform, not a Gundam.
You realize that without free transports, Space Marines are middle tier at best, right? For the most part, the vast majority of their units are absolutely garbage.
You vastly overestimate both how important model cost is to the average wargamer and how good GW is at understanding 7th edition. There's no way in hell they purposely made riptide wing better than a stormsurge, they didn't have anywhere near fine enough control for that.
I will say it is bullgak that people go to marines first as an example of getting 'free points' when daemons can summon 1000pts per turn pretty easily.
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casvalremdeikun wrote: Mark my words, units with the keyword Fly will be able to jump to their destination or ignore intervening models. It might not be able to avoid a blob, but it will be waltzing out of combat from units like Terminators or other high point, low model assault units.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Mark my words, units with the keyword Fly will be able to jump to their destination or ignore intervening models. It might not be able to avoid a blob, but it will be waltzing out of combat from units like Terminators or other high point, low model assault units.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Do you really think they mean fly as in "Fly, you fools!"? It might not literally fly, but it might fire up some jump jets or something.
No, we just read the article. The stormsurge gets to retreat due to it's 'walking battleship' special rule, whereas suits and drones may retreat and shoot due to having the 'fly' keyword.
Retreating and shooting with the stormsurge ought to be quite difficult since it can't move over enemy models.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Do you really think they mean fly as in "Fly, you fools!"? It might not literally fly, but it might fire up some jump jets or something.
No, we just read the article. The stormsurge gets to retreat due to it's 'walking battleship' special rule, whereas suits and drones may retreat and shoot due to having the 'fly' keyword.
Retreating and shooting with the stormsurge ought to be quite difficult since it can't move over enemy models.
There is something wierd to me about needing to back a hive tyrant up with gaunts or a squad of khorne berzerkers with cultists just to give the enemy nowhere to go so they dont jet away from a unit thats supposed to be brutally efficient in close combat.
Carlovonsexron wrote: The real question for is after the primarchs are all back what kind of shenanigans are gonna happen to give tue Gray Knights and the Custodians thier own āprimarchsā...
The Loyalist Primarchs will have armour that allows them to all slot together to form Megaprimarchus, with the Emperor's throne splitting from the main mechanism of the Golden Throne and forming the head.
Carlovonsexron wrote: The real question for is after the primarchs are all back what kind of shenanigans are gonna happen to give tue Gray Knights and the Custodians thier own āprimarchsā...
The Loyalist Primarchs will have armour that allows them to all slot together to form Megaprimarchus, with the Emperor's throne splitting from the main mechanism of the Golden Throne and forming the head.
At least chaos can use the powers of Blood, Magic, Rot, and Cocaine to form Captain Chaos
"With your powers combined, I am Captain Chaos!"
Captain Chaos, he's a hero, gonna bring Imperium down to zero.
At least chaos can use the powers of Blood, Magic, Rot, and Cocaine to form Captain Chaos
"With your powers combined, I am Captain Chaos!"
Captain Chaos, he's a hero, gonna bring Imperium down to zero.
I sometimes think there are those who want everything to stay the exact same and never change.
Pff, aye, what kind of daftie would expect an apocalyptic setting where the "present day" is supposed to be right before the actual apocalpyse bit expect things to remain static? I mean, you'd have to be a complete numptie to think the whole point of establishing a rough 10,000 year timeline with plenty of room to fill it out and expand it meant they were going to fill it out an expand it, rather than contrive ways to cram ever more content into the now TARDIS-esque final couple of years of M41.
30 years and they are improving the marines by explaining it well in the fluff, setting up lots of potential future conflict and interesting story lines.
Explaining things well would require adhering to the established themes and material of the setting - stagnant societies on the verge of final annihilation, defined by their moral, spiritual, and intellectual decay, who make ignorance not merely a virtue but religious dogma and punish innovation as heresy shouldn't really be pulling designs for brand new marks of armour, new weapons, new vehicles and new genetic supermen who're somehow even better than the existing genetic supemen that are supposedly relics of times when technology was far, far superior to the present day out of their backsides. Yes yes, It Was Girlyman Wot Won It, but that only reinforces what a terribad idea it is to reintroduce Primarchs in any circumstances other than the prophesised and possibly entirely mythical "final futile battle against evil" scenario.
Yes, I am quite looking forward to the potential tactics in 8th. "Do I charge in now, or risk waiting a turn of firing to surround the Stormsurge next turn" for example.
No decision. You don't lose anything really by charging and you get closer which helps surrounding it next turn. If you dont' charge it moves away and you won't likely be able to surround it.
Charge, hack, when it disengages hope you survive and charge again.
Carlovonsexron wrote: The real question for is after the primarchs are all back what kind of shenanigans are gonna happen to give tue Gray Knights and the Custodians thier own āprimarchsā...
The Loyalist Primarchs will have armour that allows them to all slot together to form Megaprimarchus, with the Emperor's throne splitting from the main mechanism of the Golden Throne and forming the head.
Sad thing is that's not even that unlikely thing anymore...
Yes, I am quite looking forward to the potential tactics in 8th. "Do I charge in now, or risk waiting a turn of firing to surround the Stormsurge next turn" for example.
No decision. You don't lose anything really by charging and you get closer which helps surrounding it next turn. If you dont' charge it moves away and you won't likely be able to surround it.
Charge, hack, when it disengages hope you survive and charge again.
I more meant keeping squad A in as much cover as possible, as squad B moves around the back, rather than having squad A charge in by themselves, and be exposed out in the open next turn when the Stormsurge (as an example) moves away and blows them apart.
Carlovonsexron wrote: The real question for is after the primarchs are all back what kind of shenanigans are gonna happen to give tue Gray Knights and the Custodians thier own āprimarchsā...
The Loyalist Primarchs will have armour that allows them to all slot together to form Megaprimarchus, with the Emperor's throne splitting from the main mechanism of the Golden Throne and forming the head.
Why do you think we have never seen an emperor class titan model. They are waiting to release all the parts of it first.
Anyway, I am loving the current changes to the newer rules because it seems like every unit has a part to play depending on your preferred playstyle as compared to 7th where vehicles are non existent, and there is only one way to play something. Also, another thing is by pushing the story forward GW can create newer units instead of saying it was lost but now its found for every new thing that comes out. Can't wait to see the new reserves rules tonight!
I sometimes think there are those who want everything to stay the exact same and never change.
Pff, aye, what kind of daftie would expect an apocalyptic setting where the "present day" is supposed to be right before the actual apocalpyse bit expect things to remain static? I mean, you'd have to be a complete numptie to think the whole point of establishing a rough 10,000 year timeline with plenty of room to fill it out and expand it meant they were going to fill it out an expand it, rather than contrive ways to cram ever more content into the now TARDIS-esque final couple of years of M41.
30 years and they are improving the marines by explaining it well in the fluff, setting up lots of potential future conflict and interesting story lines.
Explaining things well would require adhering to the established themes and material of the setting - stagnant societies on the verge of final annihilation, defined by their moral, spiritual, and intellectual decay, who make ignorance not merely a virtue but religious dogma and punish innovation as heresy shouldn't really be pulling designs for brand new marks of armour, new weapons, new vehicles and new genetic supermen who're somehow even better than the existing genetic supemen that are supposedly relics of times when technology was far, far superior to the present day out of their backsides. Yes yes, It Was Girlyman Wot Won It, but that only reinforces what a terribad idea it is to reintroduce Primarchs in any circumstances other than the prophesised and possibly entirely mythical "final futile battle against evil" scenario.
Basically anything can be reduced down to this kind of sarcastic tedium. Nothing about the new fluff doesn't fit in with the universe. You just don't like it, which is personal taste.
I sometimes think there are those who want everything to stay the exact same and never change.
Pff, aye, what kind of daftie would expect an apocalyptic setting where the "present day" is supposed to be right before the actual apocalpyse bit expect things to remain static? I mean, you'd have to be a complete numptie to think the whole point of establishing a rough 10,000 year timeline with plenty of room to fill it out and expand it meant they were going to fill it out an expand it, rather than contrive ways to cram ever more content into the now TARDIS-esque final couple of years of M41.
30 years and they are improving the marines by explaining it well in the fluff, setting up lots of potential future conflict and interesting story lines.
Explaining things well would require adhering to the established themes and material of the setting - stagnant societies on the verge of final annihilation, defined by their moral, spiritual, and intellectual decay, who make ignorance not merely a virtue but religious dogma and punish innovation as heresy shouldn't really be pulling designs for brand new marks of armour, new weapons, new vehicles and new genetic supermen who're somehow even better than the existing genetic supemen that are supposedly relics of times when technology was far, far superior to the present day out of their backsides. Yes yes, It Was Girlyman Wot Won It, but that only reinforces what a terribad idea it is to reintroduce Primarchs in any circumstances other than the prophesised and possibly entirely mythical "final futile battle against evil" scenario.
Basically anything can be reduced down to this kind of sarcastic tedium. Nothing about the new fluff doesn't fit in with the universe. You just don't like it, which is personal taste.
Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
I sometimes think there are those who want everything to stay the exact same and never change.
Pff, aye, what kind of daftie would expect an apocalyptic setting where the "present day" is supposed to be right before the actual apocalpyse bit expect things to remain static? I mean, you'd have to be a complete numptie to think the whole point of establishing a rough 10,000 year timeline with plenty of room to fill it out and expand it meant they were going to fill it out an expand it, rather than contrive ways to cram ever more content into the now TARDIS-esque final couple of years of M41.
30 years and they are improving the marines by explaining it well in the fluff, setting up lots of potential future conflict and interesting story lines.
Explaining things well would require adhering to the established themes and material of the setting - stagnant societies on the verge of final annihilation, defined by their moral, spiritual, and intellectual decay, who make ignorance not merely a virtue but religious dogma and punish innovation as heresy shouldn't really be pulling designs for brand new marks of armour, new weapons, new vehicles and new genetic supermen who're somehow even better than the existing genetic supemen that are supposedly relics of times when technology was far, far superior to the present day out of their backsides. Yes yes, It Was Girlyman Wot Won It, but that only reinforces what a terribad idea it is to reintroduce Primarchs in any circumstances other than the prophesised and possibly entirely mythical "final futile battle against evil" scenario.
Basically anything can be reduced down to this kind of sarcastic tedium. Nothing about the new fluff doesn't fit in with the universe. You just don't like it, which is personal taste.
Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
Not at all, I just disagree with him.
It takes established themes - the 40k dystopia and it juxtaposes the earlier enlightenment of the crusade era into it. It's not abandoning the theme at all. Hopefully they play up the clash of these two in the future - we at least know RG was pretty horrified by what has happened.
RG hasn't swooped in to save it all, he's trying to salvage something from the ashes. Things have literally never been worse for humanity.
There have been many programs trying to improve marines, so the idea is something from the established background, I haven't actually read it yet to decide if it was written to my liking or not.
Yod is free to dislike whatever he likes, but what he's saying is opinion and not factual and like I say, You can reduce any story down in to its basic elements and make it sound crap, it's incredibly easy to be negative about everything (as demonstrated frequently around here).
Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
His points are only 'good' if you share his view. Which traditionally is miserable, anti-GW and anti-change. It's almost like you are doing the thing you are being critical of.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
Improved gene seed already exists in the setting. The new and improved Errant mark was being introduced into general use. New vehicles and weapons can happen at any time within the setting ASIT EXISTS EVEN TODAY, if only because hereteks exist. None of those things are "pulled out of a backside".
All that is happening is that, after 30 years of setting stasis, the natural human drive towards self improvement finally has a champion that cannot be swept under the rug by the entrenched hierarchy. And he's not even winning in any meaningful way right now.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
Improved gene seed already exists in the setting. The new and improved Errant mark was being introduced into general use. New vehicles and weapons can happen at any time within the setting ASIT EXISTS EVEN TODAY, if only because hereteks exist. None of those things are "pulled out of a backside".
All that is happening is that, after 30 years of setting stasis, the natural human drive towards self improvement finally has a champion that cannot be swept under the rug by the entrenched hierarchy. And he's not even winning in any meaningful way right now.
So wait, you're saying that Cawl - a character that we never knew even existed even though he was a ten thousand years old Archmagos Dominus - just appearing out of nowhere and healing RG with Xenos help and then saying that he was set on this super secret mission by a Primarch to provide the Imperium with "extra special" Astartes isn't an asspull?
Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
His points are only 'good' if you share his view. Which traditionally is miserable, anti-GW and anti-change. It's almost like you are doing the thing you are being critical of.
EDIT.. Vorian saying it better than I could
And here we go, the usual "You're anti-GW" bs.
Grow up ffs. I actually like some things about the 8th ed, and dislike others.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
Improved gene seed already exists in the setting. The new and improved Errant mark was being introduced into general use. New vehicles and weapons can happen at any time within the setting ASIT EXISTS EVEN TODAY, if only because hereteks exist. None of those things are "pulled out of a backside".
All that is happening is that, after 30 years of setting stasis, the natural human drive towards self improvement finally has a champion that cannot be swept under the rug by the entrenched hierarchy. And he's not even winning in any meaningful way right now.
So wait, you're saying that Cawl - a character that we never knew even existed even though he was a ten thousand years old Archmagos Dominus - just appearing out of nowhere and healing RG with Xenos help and then saying that he was set on this super secret mission by a Primarch to provide the Imperium with "extra special" Astartes isn't an asspull?
No, you're right - it's mediocre storytelling.
Even though he is a new old character, I actually like the story. Yes it is a bit of an asspull, but I like where it is all going. As a community whole, we begged for story progression, and now we have it I like the way it was executed.
When you write it in a cynical way, yes, it doesn't sound great, but that is the same with pretty much any story.
It makes more sense that Robby G had a long term plan, and crazy that a mad old mostly robot scientist has been going at that plan for 10k years. It is classic crazy 40k style plot, and I like it.
So because something wasn't foreshadowed twenty years ago, it has no place in the story today? We're supposed to know every single important character before he does anything important?
Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
His points are only 'good' if you share his view. Which traditionally is miserable, anti-GW and anti-change. It's almost like you are doing the thing you are being critical of.
EDIT.. Vorian saying it better than I could
And here we go, the usual "You're anti-GW" bs.
Grow up ffs. I actually like some things about the 8th ed, and dislike others.
I was refering to the poster you came leaping too, not yourself.
Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
His points are only 'good' if you share his view. Which traditionally is miserable, anti-GW and anti-change. It's almost like you are doing the thing you are being critical of.
EDIT.. Vorian saying it better than I could
And here we go, the usual "You're anti-GW" bs.
Grow up ffs. I actually like some things about the 8th ed, and dislike others.
I was refering to the poster you came leaping too, not yourself.
It's cute the way people by pass points they can't refute and focus on pointless nonsense to save face isn't It?
I sometimes think there are those who want everything to stay the exact same and never change.
Pff, aye, what kind of daftie would expect an apocalyptic setting where the "present day" is supposed to be right before the actual apocalpyse bit expect things to remain static? I mean, you'd have to be a complete numptie to think the whole point of establishing a rough 10,000 year timeline with plenty of room to fill it out and expand it meant they were going to fill it out an expand it, rather than contrive ways to cram ever more content into the now TARDIS-esque final couple of years of M41.
30 years and they are improving the marines by explaining it well in the fluff, setting up lots of potential future conflict and interesting story lines.
Explaining things well would require adhering to the established themes and material of the setting - stagnant societies on the verge of final annihilation, defined by their moral, spiritual, and intellectual decay, who make ignorance not merely a virtue but religious dogma and punish innovation as heresy shouldn't really be pulling designs for brand new marks of armour, new weapons, new vehicles and new genetic supermen who're somehow even better than the existing genetic supemen that are supposedly relics of times when technology was far, far superior to the present day out of their backsides. Yes yes, It Was Girlyman Wot Won It, but that only reinforces what a terribad idea it is to reintroduce Primarchs in any circumstances other than the prophesised and possibly entirely mythical "final futile battle against evil" scenario.
Basically anything can be reduced down to this kind of sarcastic tedium. Nothing about the new fluff doesn't fit in with the universe. You just don't like it, which is personal taste.
Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
Not at all, I just disagree with him.
It takes established themes - the 40k dystopia and it juxtaposes the earlier enlightenment of the crusade era into it. It's not abandoning the theme at all. Hopefully they play up the clash of these two in the future - we at least know RG was pretty horrified by what has happened.
RG hasn't swooped in to save it all, he's trying to salvage something from the ashes. Things have literally never been worse for humanity.
There have been many programs trying to improve marines, so the idea is something from the established background, I haven't actually read it yet to decide if it was written to my liking or not.
Yod is free to dislike whatever he likes, but what he's saying is opinion and not factual and like I say, You can reduce any story down in to its basic elements and make it sound crap, it's incredibly easy to be negative about everything (as demonstrated frequently around here).
Now we're talking.
Firstly let me say that I can understand that, and that is a much better answer than just saying what you did above....
Regarding the difference in the themes - this specifically marks the beginning of the abandoning of what I believe is the main 40k Theme - hopelessness. It most crucially completely clears out the "long defeat" feel that you had going on in the Imperium - the pointless drudging through years on years of war and pain and hopelessness, the droning of a society that is reduced to a mindless zealotry because that was all they got left, they didn't even have hope anymore - the hope brought by the Great Crusade was crushed during the HH. That hopelessness permeated the decadent societies so deeply that it automatically gave the Tau their character because they just... weren't like the rest. But do note how they didn't change the rest.
It's a completely different feel than what GW is going to push now with this "this is totally not what we're doing with AoS guys!" Indomitus crusade. You can substitute the terms one by one (which I did just out of a joke on a post yesterday) and you can see that it's the exact same thing. And although you still got the basics around that you can identify with what was before but it's just that - a mere vestigial resemblance, kinda like the traits that pass from your grandfather to you. Inside you're a completely different individual. There will be no logic in the fluff jump between 7th and 8th because the inherent themes are so utterly different, and I believe we'll start seeing soon enough.
And yes, sure RG hasn't saved it all yet but let me a bit more cynical here... What's he's being set up to do is a second Great Crusade (like Big Daddy E and Sigmar) to liberate the Galaxy and most likely save and recover his lost brothers (and don't even get me started on the possibility of Sanguinius suddenly popping into existence, thus completely invalidating his sacrifice against Horus and the very reason the BA's got even more flying rodent gak crazy) and re-enact all the tropes we saw in the Great Crusade descriptions and in AoS... which are again have completely different underlying themes to 40k.
The thing here is that whoever is writing this new fluff isn't really, imoofc, respecting the basic themes of 40k and is going to create a completely different setting. They aren't juxtaposing it, though I can see where you're seeing that - they are just going to ignore it. And ignoring them will bring internal inconsistencies that will make things... odd.
Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
His points are only 'good' if you share his view. Which traditionally is miserable, anti-GW and anti-change. It's almost like you are doing the thing you are being critical of.
EDIT.. Vorian saying it better than I could
And here we go, the usual "You're anti-GW" bs.
Grow up ffs. I actually like some things about the 8th ed, and dislike others.
I was refering to the poster you came leaping too, not yourself.
It's cute the way people by pass points they can't refute and focus on pointless nonsense to save face isn't It?
You were saying?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
His Master's Voice wrote: So because something wasn't foreshadowed twenty years ago, it has no place in the story today? We're supposed to know every single important character before he does anything important?
I'm not saying there's no place in it today. I'm just pointing it out as bad storytelling.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
Improved gene seed already exists in the setting. The new and improved Errant mark was being introduced into general use. New vehicles and weapons can happen at any time within the setting ASIT EXISTS EVEN TODAY, if only because hereteks exist. None of those things are "pulled out of a backside".
All that is happening is that, after 30 years of setting stasis, the natural human drive towards self improvement finally has a champion that cannot be swept under the rug by the entrenched hierarchy. And he's not even winning in any meaningful way right now.
So wait, you're saying that Cawl - a character that we never knew even existed even though he was a ten thousand years old Archmagos Dominus - just appearing out of nowhere and healing RG with Xenos help and then saying that he was set on this super secret mission by a Primarch to provide the Imperium with "extra special" Astartes isn't an asspull?
No, you're right - it's mediocre storytelling.
Even though he is a new old character, I actually like the story. Yes it is a bit of an asspull, but I like where it is all going. As a community whole, we begged for story progression, and now we have it I like the way it was executed.
When you write it in a cynical way, yes, it doesn't sound great, but that is the same with pretty much any story.
It makes more sense that Robby G had a long term plan, and crazy that a mad old mostly robot scientist has been going at that plan for 10k years. It is classic crazy 40k style plot, and I like it.
I am a bit too cynical at times, I know. Especially regarding things I really like. And mind you I am all for setting progression but I am saying it could have been done better and while respecting the themes of 40k. What I'm seeing right now is the set up for a direct copy paste of the AoSreconquista.
They want to progress the setting? Sure. Just make it properly and consistently. Have RG commission the Primarines after he comes back from Stasis so that they really feel different and rarer than normal Marines.
There is literally nothing hinting that RG is going to sweep through and set up a utopia. All of the background is playing up how desperate of a situation they are in.
They are throwing the kitchen sink at it while the imperium circles the drain.
Success would be getting back to how doomed they were before - which won't happen
I like some aspects of 8th, but I don't like every aspect of 8th, and some of the RG story arc progression is bad fan fiction turned up to 11.
GW are contradicting their own, decades established fluff, with Deus Ex Machina, and are literally, pulling things out of their rear.
It doesn't make you ant-GW to call a spade a spade.
Going on a rant here, but back in 1980s Britain, when I was around
The 40k fluff was established and influenced by the backdrop of Thatcher's Britain, which was not a good place to grow up if you were working-class like me.
the fluff was grim, because British society was grim for a lot of its inhabitants. This latest generation of GW writers seem to have forgotten their roots.
Hope just feels weird in the 40k universe, and as an earlier poster points out, they have 10,000 years of history to expand and develop.
New armour and new marines feels out of place. Although I admit the new marines are very nice models.
Again: what exactly? Everything is perfectly consistent.
There is no Deus Ex Mechanica other than RG coming back fulfilling something that has been a possibility from pretty much the start of the Primarchs existing
On the loss of hope, I'd say false or slim hope is a far worse situation.
When you've lost hope, you'll fight for every scrap of ground because there is no alternative.
But when help is meant to be coming, and then doesn't? That's far worse.
I'd say 40k's roots aren't so much the Thatcherite era, but the preceding post-Imperial era. In the space of maybe 40 years, Great Britain lost [I[everything[/I]. Prior to World War One we were absolutely a super power in the world. Our Empire was still enormous, and we had powerful industry.
By the end of the Second World War, we were wrecked. Two generations had been decimated. Chunks of the country had been heavily bombed - and we could no longer hold onto the Empire (not a bad thing. I'm not some swastika eyed Daily Mail reader). We lost power, wealth and influence. The lot.
Whether or not Thatcher's actions simply drew a line under the inevitable, who knows. That's a topic for a thread in Off Topic, not here.
As for Cawl? He's been on a 10,000 year top secret mission. Clue as to why we've not heard of him before is that his mission was top secret
And I've long postulated that The Imperium is not, and never has been, entirely daft. They know if Terra falls, it's all over. So they would've been making sure any assault on Terra and the Sol System was a forlorn hope - one no invader could ever properly carry out.
Geneseed has been tithed to Terra for 10,000 years - 50% of it held there, 50% on that planet in the old Iron Warriors book (unsure if that remains canon though?). There's no way it's all been used to create new Chapters or replace disastrous losses. No way at all. Each Maureen has two Geneseed zygots in him. So even if only 50% of warriors have theirs successfully extracted, there's actually no real loss to potential replacement. But we know it's a much higher percentage is successfully recovered, because Apothecaries are good at their job.
So that leaves a lot of geneseed in the vaults.
All that's really been missing (or so it seemed) was the knowledge and authority to get cracking with it.
And don't forget - prior to his spot in stasis and the event of Rise of the Primarch, Guilliman was not dead. On the brink thereof? Yes. But not actually ded.
Given Cawl is a high ranking member of the Mechanicus, it's entirely possible he created that Ark thing following 9,000 years of meticulous research and archive raiding on Mars, having long ago theorised there was a way to keep Guilliman kicking until his fantastical metabolism could heal his grievous wound.
It's not new lore, so much as stuff that's never come to the fore, simply because those involved were either in stasis, or stupidly busy.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
Improved gene seed already exists in the setting. The new and improved Errant mark was being introduced into general use. New vehicles and weapons can happen at any time within the setting ASIT EXISTS EVEN TODAY, if only because hereteks exist. None of those things are "pulled out of a backside".
All that is happening is that, after 30 years of setting stasis, the natural human drive towards self improvement finally has a champion that cannot be swept under the rug by the entrenched hierarchy. And he's not even winning in any meaningful way right now.
So wait, you're saying that Cawl - a character that we never knew even existed even though he was a ten thousand years old Archmagos Dominus - just appearing out of nowhere and healing RG with Xenos help and then saying that he was set on this super secret mission by a Primarch to provide the Imperium with "extra special" Astartes isn't an asspull?
No, you're right - it's mediocre storytelling.
Even though he is a new old character, I actually like the story. Yes it is a bit of an asspull, but I like where it is all going. As a community whole, we begged for story progression, and now we have it I like the way it was executed.
When you write it in a cynical way, yes, it doesn't sound great, but that is the same with pretty much any story.
It makes more sense that Robby G had a long term plan, and crazy that a mad old mostly robot scientist has been going at that plan for 10k years. It is classic crazy 40k style plot, and I like it.
You aren't looking at it in his light. The way he wants it, GW could never make new stories and such because they didn't think to make these characters and/or storylines 20 years ago when they started out.
nintura wrote: You aren't looking at it in his light. The way he wants it, GW could never make new stories and such because they didn't think to make these characters and/or storylines 20 years ago when they started out.
Or they would have to do it smarter than deus-ex-machine that suddenly comes and solves everything.
Vorian wrote: Again: what exactly? Everything is perfectly consistent.
There is no Deus Ex Mechanica other than RG coming back fulfilling something that has been a possibility from pretty much the start of the Primarchs existing
I read the Rise Of The Primarch fiction, and it felt dull and lacklustre.
I know right? Seems they dont know how the storyline goes. Lemme explain.
Good guys start off, doing great, gonna win.
Good guys falter, bad guys reveal evil plan. Thing looks grim for the good guys.
Good guys pull off new plan, make a come back. Bad guys struggle.
Repeat the 2nd and 3rd part over and over. Right now, the Imperium is pulling out it's latest plan to survive. The bad guys have just massively increased (new warp rifts, imperium torn in half, etc etc). The good guys are revealing their new plans by making newer, better guys. They have the upswing, but they are still faltering. The empire is still losing ground. They are fighting to not lose, not to retake ground.
I can (fairly happily) accept that some bonkers Admech Magos has been brewing up Hypermarines in his secret Martian Fortress of Secrecy, also making (Slightly) better bolters and (Slightly) better armour. For 10,000 years. And while things repeatedly go to hell, with the Wars for Armageddon, 12 Black Crusades, Nova Terra Interregnum, Age of Apostasy and sudden invasion of the Hive Fleets doing absolutely nothing to help the Imperium even though he could, because he hasn't been told that the time is right. That's properly Imperium bonkers, Grimdark "If only people stopped to think everything wouldn't be so horrid" that we've known and loved for decades. And it avoids the Centurion trap ("Here's a new thing! It's actually been around in the Imperium for centuries but we just didn't mention it before")
I can slightly accept RG making a comeback. That's been seeded in the lore since Index Astartes, though I didn't think they'd pull the trigger.
What should happen, because Grimdark, is that as soon as RG wakes up he takes a look at just how unfeasibly dreadful the Imperium has become and declares a massive genocidal war. Once more the Imperium has sown the seeds of it's own doom by waking a Primarch, which seemed like a great idea but really wasn't.
The only hope previously in 40k was that Mankind would hold onto existence, by the skin of its teeth, long enough to evolve into a sufficiently powerful psychic race that it would be able to resist Chaos. And that wasn't going to happen any time soon. That was Big E's long term goal.
The new setting is going to be a revival story. The way it's set up it can't be anything else. Even if individual events go south, humanity is on a generally upward trend from a bad position (that just got worse due to the big warp tear in the galaxy, but starting from worse and starting from bad are indistinguishable if your overall trajectory is up.
Cramming it into the last 4.3 seconds of M41 is just daft, but they've painted themselves into a corner with that one. I still don't think story progression is a good idea, at all, but they've shot themselves in the foot with that one and there's no way to reattach the toes, so whatever.
Contrast to Warhammer, the setting that they ACTUALLY BLEW UP (still a really daft move) where there was always some degree of hope due to the general technological advances of the Empire, the introduction of the colleges of magic, the fact that the Elves were doing a pretty decent job of keeping the world from being sucked into a vortex... Warhammer was never Grimdark.
Now we've ditched Warhammer, we're in the process of ditching the original feel of 40k, and GW is in danger of having two settings that are tonally identical but with different levels of technology.
I can (fairly happily) accept that some bonkers Admech Magos has been brewing up Hypermarines in his secret Martian Fortress of Secrecy, also making (Slightly) better bolters and (Slightly) better armour. For 10,000 years. And while things repeatedly go to hell, with the Wars for Armageddon, 12 Black Crusades, Nova Terra Interregnum, Age of Apostasy and sudden invasion of the Hive Fleets doing absolutely nothing to help the Imperium even though he could, because he hasn't been told that the time is right. That's properly Imperium bonkers, Grimdark "If only people stopped to think everything wouldn't be so horrid" that we've known and loved for decades. And it avoids the Centurion trap ("Here's a new thing! It's actually been around in the Imperium for centuries but we just didn't mention it before")
I can slightly accept RG making a comeback. That's been seeded in the lore since Index Astartes, though I didn't think they'd pull the trigger.
What should happen, because Grimdark, is that as soon as RG wakes up he takes a look at just how unfeasibly dreadful the Imperium has become and declares a massive genocidal war. Once more the Imperium has sown the seeds of it's own doom by waking a Primarch, which seemed like a great idea but really wasn't.
The only hope previously in 40k was that Mankind would hold onto existence, by the skin of its teeth, long enough to evolve into a sufficiently powerful psychic race that it would be able to resist Chaos. And that wasn't going to happen any time soon. That was Big E's long term goal.
The new setting is going to be a revival story. The way it's set up it can't be anything else. Even if individual events go south, humanity is on a generally upward trend from a bad position (that just got worse due to the big warp tear in the galaxy, but starting from worse and starting from bad are indistinguishable if your overall trajectory is up.
Cramming it into the last 4.3 seconds of M41 is just daft, but they've painted themselves into a corner with that one. I still don't think story progression is a good idea, at all, but they've shot themselves in the foot with that one and there's no way to reattach the toes, so whatever.
Contrast to Warhammer, the setting that they ACTUALLY BLEW UP (still a really daft move) where there was always some degree of hope due to the general technological advances of the Empire, the introduction of the colleges of magic, the fact that the Elves were doing a pretty decent job of keeping the world from being sucked into a vortex... Warhammer was never Grimdark.
Now we've ditched Warhammer, we're in the process of ditching the original feel of 40k, and GW is in danger of having two settings that are tonally identical but with different levels of technology.
Vorian wrote: Again: what exactly? Everything is perfectly consistent.
There is no Deus Ex Mechanica other than RG coming back fulfilling something that has been a possibility from pretty much the start of the Primarchs existing
I read the Rise Of The Primarch fiction, and it felt dull and lacklustre.
There was no heat coming from those pages.
Ok, *insert dude meme about opinions*
None of that is Deus Ex Mchanica or inconsistent with the universe.
Graph, I fail to see your point. RG woke up with the imperium engulfed in Chaos, he's now mounting a forlorn hope to try and stem the tide. All perfectly consistent
What would not be consistent is he woke up, ignored Chaos and launched some genocidal campaign against humanity... that's... ... I have no words.
Whether you think the developments fit into the 40k universe or not, you're opinion on that matter is just that, an opinion. It should behoove some to step down from their high horses. If you're respond to someones arguments with snarky oneliners or talk about other users above their heads, you should know that it is you that come across as the culprit.
Progressing a central story line in a galaxy with 400 billion stars always felt sketchy at best. In my personal opinion the GW fluff-writers have been shrinking the "feel" of the galaxy for quite some time now.
As an aside, is psychology rules out of the game now?
Again, as said, the new stuff is not Humanity regaining ground. It's fighting to NOT LOSE. It's survival with no hope of reviving at the current time. This latest crusade as mentioned before, is about retaining and strengthening what the empire has left. It's not going out to beat the enemy on it's grounds.
nintura wrote: Again, as said, the new stuff is not Humanity regaining ground. It's fighting to NOT LOSE. It's survival with no hope of reviving at the current time. This latest crusade as mentioned before, is about retaining and strengthening what the empire has left. It's not going out to beat the enemy on it's grounds.
That's another 40k problem in my book: there seems to be no hope of victory.
In World wars, you won by defeating Germany or Britain, depending on what side you were on.
In Star Trek, powerful though they are, you know where the Borg and the Dominion are
etc etc
40k seems to have no end in sight, and that feels weird as well, because how do you defeat Chaos? Hell, at least with the Tyranids, if you blow up enough fleets, you might win, but Chaos?
Like....like how Horus just sort of dropped his shields, allowing The Emperor to board and fight him one-on-one? I mean, what a stroke of luck, eh?
Lol. You do know Horus did that deliberately right? Not luck. Strike at Terra was intended to be quick strike to win the war in one stroke as Horus knew long term war wouldn't be in his best interest. Especially as he had ensured parts of enemy were out of position.
However this little thing called "time" is funny thing. It keeps going. Terra defended itself better than Horus expected. And 3 little things appeared. Specifically Ultramarine fleet(largest legion of all), Dark angel fleet and Space wolves fleet that were about to reach Sol.
Horus gamble had failed. Big time. He was going to get sandwitched between Emperor's palace which was still going to take a long time to take out and 3 legions worth of reinforcements from rear.
Horus forces would get ANNIHILATED if they stayed there as it was. Only way for Horus was, you guess it, decide the battle right now! So he used chaos to block Emperor from realizing help was almost there and dropped shields.
He WANTED Emperor to come there. It was no luck. It was deliberate GAMBIT. Only way he could win the war. Simply keeping shields up would mean he would get annihilated. Defeated. Killed. Totally crushed. His little rebellion was over...Unless he can kill the Emperor and do it NOW. But unless he can get Emperor out of palace face to face that's not possible as it would take far too long to force way all the way so...Yeah option was get wiped out or drop shields and hope Emperor takes the bait.
Honestly have you even read HH fluff? That was fairly basic thing hard to miss if you read how battle of terra went out.
Like....like how Horus just sort of dropped his shields, allowing The Emperor to board and fight him one-on-one? I mean, what a stroke of luck, eh?
Er, what?
Horus dropped his shields because he wanted to tempt the Emperor into a 'one on one' fight.
He thought he had the chops to get it done that way, because the Siege was taking too long, and he knew that Loyalist reinforcements were rapidly approaching (Russ, the Lion and maybe Guilliman too at this point?) and knew the Siege was about to be broken.
He gambled on an all or nothing approach and got the 'nothing' result.
How did you miss this?!?
Anyway, 8th Edition is still managing to have me looking forward to playing 40K again - and I say bring back as many Primarchs as possible!
nintura wrote: Again, as said, the new stuff is not Humanity regaining ground. It's fighting to NOT LOSE. It's survival with no hope of reviving at the current time. This latest crusade as mentioned before, is about retaining and strengthening what the empire has left. It's not going out to beat the enemy on it's grounds.
That's another 40k problem in my book: there seems to be no hope of victory.
In World wars, you won by defeating Germany or Britain, depending on what side you were on.
In Star Trek, powerful though they are, you know where the Borg and the Dominion are
etc etc
40k seems to have no end in sight, and that feels weird as well, because how do you defeat Chaos? Hell, at least with the Tyranids, if you blow up enough fleets, you might win, but Chaos?
It's odd to me.
First you like a post that talks about GrimDark then say it sucks because there's no hope? I dont think you understand what GrimDark means... There's not meant to be hope. It's a struggle. You are playing the elite (well, you were, but not now) of the empire in an attempt to save a world from some kind of the thousand threats out there.
Oh and for clarification, you can never blow up enough Tyranids. Their penultimate swarm is nearly the size of the galaxy in which you are fighting. Possibly larger. Eventually, the universe WILL fall to the nids. The only way to fight them is by not being here i.e fighting from the warp or some alternate dimension. but then it's only a matter of time before they figure out how to breach it, or they move on to the next galaxy.
nintura wrote: Again, as said, the new stuff is not Humanity regaining ground. It's fighting to NOT LOSE. It's survival with no hope of reviving at the current time. This latest crusade as mentioned before, is about retaining and strengthening what the empire has left. It's not going out to beat the enemy on it's grounds.
But that's your opinion. For all you know, the plot may actually develop similar to AoS where the Imperium starts a new crusade to take back what they have lost with these new superhumans.
Me, I dislike the plot development, and I would disagree with one poster who said the community at large had been wanting a plot development for ages. Maybe a vocal minority wanted a plot advancement but I know plenty of players who like things just the way they are, but don't post on forums.
40K the game couldnt be predicated on the great crusade. Why, because the Imperium never lost, ever sector, ever planet they came across was brought into the fold, no one could resist. How fun would it be to play a game where you knew you were playing the victors. In order for people to play all the armies they were created (against super humans), it had to be during a time of decay. If you were playing Space Marines, you are trying to turn back chaos against all hope, if you are playing Xenos you are accelerating the decline of humanity. It gave a certain feel to the actual games you were playing (at least for me). That sense of being on the edge, stemming the tide, protecting those that cannot protect themselves, etc. That's where alot of us wanted the game to stand still. Kind of like if you are playing a game revolving around WW2. Most likely you play that game because you enjoy something about the era, you don't want plot advancement. If people wanted to play WWI games, why would they break out the civil war figures? GW has an era (even on the eve of destruction) where they could still create but yet not advance the timeline and it worked as evidenced by everyone here. If people were so upset with the lack of timeline advancement, they would have left the game.
The AoS timeline is a joke, and was part of the reason I sold off all my fantasy models. There really isn't any grim dark left. Why, because we know now that even if Chaos wins, the good guys will just reappear somehow/someway, GW destroyed that aura of desperation. The same thing could be said for 40k. So if things get too grim, don't worry, some character we haven't ever heard of will appear to save humanity- that really takes something away from the plot which translates onto the battle board.
Granted, some folks don't care about the fluff at all, they like the models, its all good. Also, there are those that care about the fluff, but don't care about the game. However, I would say the majority of us enjoy the fluff which creates a better atmosphere for gaming.
Frankly as soon as the first primarch hit the gaming table for 40k I knew my time was limited in the game. 30k they worked as they were apart of the fluff and frankly there was so many weapons of mass destruction Primarchs could be dealt with more easily than 40k. I don't think that will be the case with 40k and I think battles will devolve into what we see in AoS. I'd ,love to be proven wrong, but I have lived through 30 years with GW and to be honest, I think most of the guys who really influenced the game I love are gone now or in roles where they don't directly influence the game as much. I think the new writers are putting their spin on things and the models and fluff reflect it.
We can argue about opinions and this and that, but I would think people could at least agree (especially the old timers) that the models and influences have changed in the past 2-3 years.
Sorry, as someone who doesn't follow the 40K fiction intensely as some of you evidently do, there is practically no difference in the 40K fiction between 7th and 8th other than Imperium having a clear leader figure now.
Even if Kharadon Overlords become the new squats, it's just a new name for the meat in the grinder of eternal war.
40K is eternal war. No faction will ever win, and for obvious reasons humanity will never truly lose.
nintura wrote: Oh and for clarification, you can never blow up enough Tyranids. Their penultimate swarm is nearly the size of the galaxy in which you are fighting. Possibly larger. Eventually, the universe WILL fall to the nids. The only way to fight them is by not being here i.e fighting from the warp or some alternate dimension. but then it's only a matter of time before they figure out how to breach it, or they move on to the next galaxy.
You can never blow up enough 'Nids using methods that obey the laws of nature. Fortunately, the Warp exists.
adamsouza wrote: Sorry, as someone who doesn't follow the 40K fiction intensely as some of you evidently do, there is practically no difference in the 40K fiction between 7th and 8th other than Imperium having a clear leader figure now.
Even if Kharadon Overlords become the new squats, it's just a new name for the meat in the grinder of eternal war.
40K is eternal war. No faction will ever win, and for obvious reasons humanity will never truly lose.
There are story elements that tell us which factions will win/lose eventually. But again, that's all based on what codex you read and how much time passes. As stated above, Tyranids will eventually win, at least this galaxy. As deadly as they seem to be in the story right now, you're only seeing the small laps of the wave upon the shores and not seeing the actual breadth of the ocean. The races in this universe will eventually have to flee or find new refuge (like the D-eldar). However, this is probably thousands of years into the future, which we'll never get to.
But you're right in that this moving of the storyline literally means nothing in the end. It solves nothing. Humanity is still beset on all sides (even more so now after this massive warp rift, cutting off half the empire), RG finally woke up though I do like the idea of the Empire having a leader again, I liked it even more when it was just a dead corpse. I was really hoping RG would do something about how the empire has changed to worshiping his dead dad. Maybe declaring war on the highlords of Terra, but maybe he realizes the true danger they are in now and a change of leadership would only weaken the empire.
Jesus I must be getting old. I've always hated playing the humans in these games, certainly imperialistic ones and here I am defending them....
First things first, the story is already written. Nothing anyone writes here in this forums is going to generate change from within GW - while the books are physically in circulation, the new 40k is functionally published and as such it would require two things form GW to 'fix'. fist, it would require admission of error, which they have never done and will never do. Second, it would require a great deal of work to write better, more forward-thinking lore and abandon their current trajectory...
It's a take it or leave it situation for us players. The new Primaris Space Marines are stupid as hell in terms of lore, but the models are noticeably more well-proportioned and look like what the Space Marine models should have looked like ages ago. This is how things will go from now on.
IMO, Warhammer 40,000 just died. I can lament this as long as I want by holding onto my older edition books and playing with other people who do the same, or I can play GW's new game 'Generic Table-top Wargame: Future Fiction Edition'.
That being said - it isn't all bad. There are silver linings to this abysmal new setting.
Since the fine work of better writers has been overturned, almost anything can happen now. Think about that. Sure it means that garbage will also happen, but at least everyone can have their own garbage. Now that RG is back (And let's face it - we all knew that if it ever did happen, it would be RG. GW just can't help themselves). By reviving the most annoying, least interesting, least grim-dark characters in the setting, they took a misstep. But it set a precedent and now that Primarchs are coming back and their Demon Prince pals are climbing out of their warp-rift vacation planets, we'll get to enjoy meaningful characters whose return to the stage would make actual sense. The Lion - who according to the last DA codex is already awake and just chillin' until he decides to actually do something, or Vulkan & Khan, who both have no reason to not be anywhere the writers want. Hell, at this point they should just bring back Dorn since (according to comic book logic) is totally still alive. He probably regenerated his hand or had one genetically remade since they can do that crap in the far future. The only character that wouldn't make sense to come back would be Sanguinius but... what the hell right!? Let's just bring him back and say that RG was secretly reviving him too in his spare statis-time... or that he secretly started it 10,000 years ago and it's just now getting done.
Just remember that at the end of the day, this is pseudo-collectable wargame. I can think of none that have meaningful narratives or quality writing. 40k was a historical anomaly in that regard and it looks like it's time has been spent. It remains the wargame, but the narrative no longer matters.
As a player who has always valued the background, lore, and setting so highly, it is actually quite freeing to see them burn. There is nothing left for GW to gak all over. It has some finality and is sort of freeing.
It'd be kind of interesting if Chaos managed to play on RG's hubris and turn him though. Think about it, Guilliman comes back, things are looking up, and then his pride and the immense pressure on him finally makes him snap and the Imperium's brilliant hope turns to awful mockery. It'd essentially be the "Guilliman Heresy", I know, but it'd be proper Grim-Dark, and in a sense it'd be even more tragic than the Heresy because RG would have the benefit of hindsight and the Chaos Gods would STILL win that fight.
Ive always found the human side of the story in any game to be boring. They are always the heroes doing heroic things. They are the action hero stars to their own movies. They have no story, no build up of how they win, just that they do, and always at the last minute when things always seem down and at their lowest. RG coming back and making new marines is just that. It's literally nothing new so why does it change things?
Show me the real stories. You always get to see how a particular chaos lord came into power. You always get to see their plans and how they place the pieces. The bad guys always build the fight, but the good guys just always win through perseverance in the end by strength of will or luck. This is why no matter what GW does with the empire, I'll never care how it affects the over-arching story, because it doesn't matter.
Show me the story of the nids. How they came from another galaxy and are so massive, even on a galactic scale, we cannot see the other side of their swarm.
Show me how the old necrons worshiped their star gods who didn't give two gaks about you or your soul. How they just wanted to devour you like some Final Fantasy villain who just wants to return everything to nothingness.
Even on a more lighter note, show me how the orks dont care about literally anything but fighting. They don't care about dying. That's even simpler and better than anything about the empire.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: It'd be kind of interesting if Chaos managed to play on RG's hubris and turn him though. Think about it, Guilliman comes back, things are looking up, and then his pride and the immense pressure on him finally makes him snap and the Imperium's brilliant hope turns to awful mockery. It'd essentially be the "Guilliman Heresy", I know, but it'd be proper Grim-Dark, and in a sense it'd be even more tragic than the Heresy because RG would have the benefit of hindsight and the Chaos Gods would STILL win that fight.
How about it turns out to be mecha Gulliman, as part of a Mars/Necron conspiracy to make the empire of man mindless lackeys of some far superior Dynasty.
Lulz aside, Im really iterested to see what they do with the BA now. GW struggle to make them interresting in the actual game,so perhaps they thought of something else than death company to let them compete with vanilla marines.
Deus Ex Machina is a plot device that even the greats have used in the past, with HG Wells' War of the Worlds being a prime example.
There is nothing wrong with using it on a rare occasion, but not as a crutch to prop up an entire universe as GW seem to do.
That's lazy in my book.
To be fair, the actual greats found any Deus ex Machina plot devices to be lazy writing. Plato, Aristotle and Antiphanes all criticized the use of it more than two thousands years ago.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Actually he's making good points. Points which you, oh so unsurprisingly, are ignoring for the sake of your own argumentation and rose tinted views of the new stuff. But that's ok, because it's all "personal taste" for you, right?
Improved gene seed already exists in the setting. The new and improved Errant mark was being introduced into general use. New vehicles and weapons can happen at any time within the setting ASIT EXISTS EVEN TODAY, if only because hereteks exist. None of those things are "pulled out of a backside".
All that is happening is that, after 30 years of setting stasis, the natural human drive towards self improvement finally has a champion that cannot be swept under the rug by the entrenched hierarchy. And he's not even winning in any meaningful way right now.
So wait, you're saying that Cawl - a character that we never knew even existed even though he was a ten thousand years old Archmagos Dominus - just appearing out of nowhere and healing RG with Xenos help and then saying that he was set on this super secret mission by a Primarch to provide the Imperium with "extra special" Astartes isn't an asspull?
No, you're right - it's mediocre storytelling.
Even though he is a new old character, I actually like the story. Yes it is a bit of an asspull, but I like where it is all going. As a community whole, we begged for story progression, and now we have it I like the way it was executed.
When you write it in a cynical way, yes, it doesn't sound great, but that is the same with pretty much any story.
It makes more sense that Robby G had a long term plan, and crazy that a mad old mostly robot scientist has been going at that plan for 10k years. It is classic crazy 40k style plot, and I like it.
You aren't looking at it in his light. The way he wants it, GW could never make new stories and such because they didn't think to make these characters and/or storylines 20 years ago when they started out.
That's not even the point, but kudos to you for trying, I guess.
nintura wrote: Ive always found the human side of the story in any game to be boring. They are always the heroes doing heroic things. They are the action hero stars to their own movies. They have no story, no build up of how they win, just that they do, and always at the last minute when things always seem down and at their lowest. RG coming back and making new marines is just that. It's literally nothing new so why does it change things?
I think you are exactly right, and I think that is why this advancement upsets people. The way the humans or the the good guys in stories always win in the end no matter what. It never matters how bad it is they will get a lucky break right at the end and they will triumph. 40K provided a setting where everyone knew that was not the case. They knew there was no hope of a last second victory by the humans. That is what made the setting interesting and not boring, but now with the primarchs return it seems that we really were just in the same boring, "heroes-win-in-the-end" universe that everything else exists within. I am not saying that the Imperium is going to win because of this, but now there is that faint glimmer of hope that no one really wanted to see because it makes all this lore that much less unique because of it.
nintura wrote: Ive always found the human side of the story in any game to be boring. They are always the heroes doing heroic things. They are the action hero stars to their own movies. They have no story, no build up of how they win, just that they do, and always at the last minute when things always seem down and at their lowest. RG coming back and making new marines is just that. It's literally nothing new so why does it change things?
Show me the real stories. You always get to see how a particular chaos lord came into power. You always get to see their plans and how they place the pieces. The bad guys always build the fight, but the good guys just always win through perseverance in the end by strength of will or luck. This is why no matter what GW does with the empire, I'll never care how it affects the over-arching story, because it doesn't matter.
Show me the story of the nids. How they came from another galaxy and are so massive, even on a galactic scale, we cannot see the other side of their swarm.
Show me how the old necrons worshiped their star gods who didn't give two gaks about you or your soul. How they just wanted to devour you like some Final Fantasy villain who just wants to return everything to nothingness.
Even on a more lighter note, show me how the orks dont care about literally anything but fighting. They don't care about dying. That's even simpler and better than anything about the empire.
I completely disagree.
I can think of any reason why a story about Elves or Space Bugs in somehow more interesting or better written than that same story about humans. Especially since the fiction race of Elves are simple twists on older human cultures that 'stuck' over time.
For my part, (And this is coming from a Eldar player first) the only part of the story that ever mattered was the Imperium - specifically space marines - vs chaos. It was a fun, entertaining, and slightly unique story. The other imperial factions such as the Imperial Guard, the Inquisition, etc. are there to provide further depth and character to the setting, which they did very well. The fact that they are also playable factions is just icing on the cake. The other species such as Eldar and Orks did a lot ot enrich the setting even more by adding more flavor. The Eldar in particular because they were so central to the far history of the setting.
The more they 'added' the weaker the original recipe became. Necrons (as awesome as the models look - and they do look awesome), they are the most absurd addition to the game and they did s much more hamr than good by being squeezed in. It required that the GW writers literally write over existing materlal (Eldar).
The Tau are actually a lot like the 'Nids. They came in late and don't really fit thematically into the universe. Both of these factions should have remained a footnote in the other books as the 'myriad of other races' that the Imperium occasionally encounter on distant worlds. Now, it's not that I don't like the Tau - just like the 'Nids they have some amazing looking minis. They are even passingly fun to play on the table. Unlike the 'Nids I won't say that should never have been introduced, but instead they should have been introduced as the 'black hats' that they clearly are. GW's constant attempts to paint them as 'good guys' in a universe full of bad just cheapens the narrative further. There is no place for that sort of character - It would be like having Fonzie making an appearance in a Spawn graphic novel... they just don't go together.
So... I'm just a future-fiction-racist right? I mean, I just hate other races for gaks? No, I just happen to know a thing or two about literature and how to construct a reasonable narrative within an internally consistent setting. And GW is working against that goal here.
The 'new' lore is doing the same thing at an excelerated pace. It's diluting something richer than itself.
nintura wrote: You aren't looking at it in his light. The way he wants it, GW could never make new stories and such because they didn't think to make these characters and/or storylines 20 years ago when they started out.
Or they would have to do it smarter than deus-ex-machine that suddenly comes and solves everything.
I am personally hoping that despite their best efforts, all they managed to do was revive the old thunder warrior project and these primaris marines will ultimately be a failure. No one should be able to overcome the Emperors brilliance.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: 40k seems to have no end in sight, and that feels weird as well, because how do you defeat Chaos? Hell, at least with the Tyranids, if you blow up enough fleets, you might win, but Chaos?
It's odd to me.
Well, baring Necron style solutions, not being awful to each other would be a good first step. The less violence, greed, self indulgence and lies in the galaxy, the less relevant the threat of entities that feed on those things. Which is obviously not going to happen, but there you go.
No decision. You don't lose anything really by charging and you get closer which helps surrounding it next turn. If you dont' charge it moves away and you won't likely be able to surround it.
Charge, hack, when it disengages hope you survive and charge again.
Since it sounds like you don't charge after running (unless you're special) then you need to decide whether it's better to run instead of charge.
If you move even if you fail then you need to decide if it's worth coming out of cover (if you are in).
If there are units nearby you need to decide if you want to get closer to get a better chance of snaking them into combat.
I don't buy the "Gee, everyone was telling them to advance the fluff". I certainly never did. It is a big fraking galaxy. They needed new stories, not a whole new setting. Bringing back A SINGLE Primarch was a an interesting story line that they could have eaten off of for years before having him die or found his own independent enclave or something. Blowing everything up, bringing back ALL the primarchs and warp rifting everything is at best excessive. The Imperium was always the setting, not the story, and that worked fine. Now they are locking themselves into producing bigger and bigger "Revelations" rather than doing the kind of small scale stories that invite gamers to create their own narratives. What are they going to do in 10 years? The Emperor Fought Khorne and it was AWESOME and then there were 10 million warp rifts and ONE BILLION new Primarchs!
Maybe is because I'm a Tau player, but to me, the Imperium of Humanity regaining "hope" and launching a crusade makes many things to the setting, but making it less "Grimdark" is none of those.
The most genocidical race in the Galaxy, launching another Crusade to exterminate millions of alien species and even human civilizations that opposse them? Uh... I'll go back to my Sept, this is gonna be bad.
A Chaos Black Crusade was bad enough, with a Tyranid fleet at our back... but now a Imperial Crusade? I don't think our plot armour can resist that
kestral wrote: I don't buy the "Gee, everyone was telling them to advance the fluff". I certainly never did. It is a big fraking galaxy. They needed new stories, not a whole new setting. Bringing back A SINGLE Primarch was a an interesting story line that they could have eaten off of for years before having him die or found his own independent enclave or something. Blowing everything up, bringing back ALL the primarchs and warp rifting everything is at best excessive. The Imperium was always the setting, not the story, and that worked fine. Now they are locking themselves into producing bigger and bigger "Revelations" rather than doing the kind of small scale stories that invite gamers to create their own narratives. What are they going to do in 10 years? The Emperor Fought Khorne and it was AWESOME and then there were 10 million warp rifts and ONE BILLION new Primarchs!
It's not a *whole* new setting.
Also the problem with just one primarch is the rest of the community says, "What about us?".
Galas wrote: Maybe is because I'm a Tau player, but to me, the Imperium of Humanity regaining "hope" and launching a crusade makes many things to the setting, but making it less "Grimdark" is none of those.
The most genocidical race in the Galaxy, launching another Crusade to exterminate millions of alien species and even human civilizations that opposse them? Uh... I'll go back to my Sept, this is gonna be bad.
A Chaos Black Crusade was bad enough, with a Tyranid fleet at our back... but now a Imperial Crusade? I don't think our plot armour can resist that
lulz - Tau player calling humans genocidal. Good stuff...
40K has been all grimdark all the time since 3rd Edition, right after they killed off the last of the goofy elements (squats) and went all in on the theme. 40K has been grimdark, 1 minute to midnight, every codex ready to do... something, for a long long time. If there was humor, it was black humor. It was the Dark Ages set in the future and it was unrelentingly bleak, but time had paused so that nothing actually happened. 40k for a long time was more of a setting rather than a story. The codices has stories in them, but the narrative was never pushed forward so the tone was pretty consistent. That is until the Iyanden supplement, and you started to see a story within the present time of the setting. Every campaign and Gathering Storm book has told the story, and with it the setting has changed.
The tone HAS shifted in 40k. Its is moving away from the grimdark toward a more classic struggle between good, evil, and "wild card" forces. The universe of 40k used to be vast, now it feels smaller, with a galactic map that is simpler and a small group of named heroes who appear to be the prime movers in a vast universe. The game is changing as well in an attempt to be easier to learn and shorter to play.
In short, 40k is changing with the times. People who love the grimdark and enjoy 4 hour games with their friends may not appreciate what is happening and I get that. I see it as more of an effort to appeal to the changing tastes of the market place and to try and get new players into the hobby.
Personally I find a lot of the recent story cheesy, but I appreciate it and enjoy 40k for what it is. The grimdark is cool, but at some point It gets tiring and I'm OK with a change.
kestral wrote: I don't buy the "Gee, everyone was telling them to advance the fluff". I certainly never did. It is a big fraking galaxy. They needed new stories, not a whole new setting. Bringing back A SINGLE Primarch was a an interesting story line that they could have eaten off of for years before having him die or found his own independent enclave or something. Blowing everything up, bringing back ALL the primarchs and warp rifting everything is at best excessive. The Imperium was always the setting, not the story, and that worked fine. Now they are locking themselves into producing bigger and bigger "Revelations" rather than doing the kind of small scale stories that invite gamers to create their own narratives. What are they going to do in 10 years? The Emperor Fought Khorne and it was AWESOME and then there were 10 million warp rifts and ONE BILLION new Primarchs!
This guy gets it.
It takes a very competent writer to construct a narrative in which they reveal just enough to engage the audience, yet no so much that they answer questions before they are asked. It's called, 'leaving things up to your imagination', and it's a trick that modern writers are woefully ignorant of.
Oldhammer was was famous for this. It has so many possibilities and they went out of their way NOT to make things concrete. You could interpret things how you liked and it prompted people to be creative and parcipate in their narrative in that way,
This Newhammer BS is the exacpt opposite of that. It leaves nothing to imagination and constricts the entire narrative to 'what will out heroes do next, tune in next week for...The adventures of RG and his merry band of marines as they save the galaxy from another...'
Cron's were in 3rd? Or 4th. Can't remember. Maybe earlier. They just didnt have a fleshed out story. There was a black and white photo of one in the rule book. Then they came out as a handful of models about a race that's waking up before they got their first official codex. They've been around a very long time.
nintura wrote: Cron's were in 3rd? Or 4th. Can't remember. Maybe earlier. They just didnt have a fleshed out story. There was a black and white photo of one in the rule book. Then they came out as a handful of models about a race that's waking up before they got their first official codex. They've been around a very long time.
In the new Warhammer 40,000, as today, keeping some units in reserve is still a very important and potentially powerful tactical tool.
There are some pretty fundamental changes to how they work though. For a start, not every unit can be placed in reserve, so most of your army will usually deploy on the battlefield at the start of the game. This means that they will be contributing to the battle from turn one, but will also be a target for the enemy ā so youāll have to work out how to best utilise those early turns.
Quite a few units still have the option to join the game mid-battle though, and they use a variety of mystical or technological means to do so. While there are no longer universal special rules like Deep Strike or Outflank, many of these abilities will have common themes ā so you can still expect units like Terminators to teleport down, Genestealer Cults units to ambush and Ork Kommandos to use their kunninā to sneak up on the foe.
As an example, letās take a look at the special rule for a Trygon, a unit famed for its unusual method of deployment, tunneling up under the enemy army:
So we can see that this will be quite a powerful ability. Not only delivering the Trygon into the heart of the enemy force, but also an accompanying unit of Tyranids. And thereās nothing stopping them from charging this turn either! Though that 9ā³ distance to the enemy (which is common to a lot of units with similar abilities) will mean that the averages on the dice will be against you for that 2D6 charge distance. (You can always use your Command Re-roll of courseā¦)
In matched play, there are a few additional restrictions to deployment methods like this, which you might imagine, can get very powerful very fast when used by multiple units across a single army. Matched play games use a special mission rule called Tactical Reserves.
This rule helps limit some of the more extreme cases of withholding reserves in competitive games. So, while itās totally possible to have an all Deathwing Terminator army, for example, you canāt use the teleport rules on all of them in matched play. (Though we do think a narrative game where the entire Deathwing teleports in on the first turn to take a Chaos bastion would be pretty awesome.)
Lots to think about there.
Weāll be back tomorrow with a bit more news on vehicles in the new Warhammer 40,000.
My friends and I always look at the codex fluff as if it is written as a propaganda piece for the army which then gets fleshed out in other areas.
Example: Draigo Taking out Mortarion. Well in mortarions heart we learn that he was getting his ass kicked but luckily had Mortarions true name and remembered to wear his GOD DAMN HELMET.
So when we look at fluff we know there is so much context missing that makes it plausible.
Well, at least that is how my friends and I read things so the Matt Ward fluff never bothered us.
Its kind of like how in the Ciaphus Cain books, the exerpts from other writers always talk about him doing things single handed, forgetting about the troopers with him, and ESPECIALLY forgetting about Jurgen.
nintura wrote: So definitely no mishap. You just setup 9" away without scatter.
I'd say that some units - Orks, maybe - might get less reliable methods, but then if they're doing away with the Scatter Dice I'm not sure what methods they'd use in that case.
nintura wrote: So definitely no mishap. You just setup 9" away without scatter.
I'd say that some units - Orks, maybe - might get less reliable methods, but then if they're doing away with the Scatter Dice I'm not sure what methods they'd use in that case.
They could have them come in on a random table edge, just like current outflank.
En Excelsis wrote: Necrons (as awesome as the models look - and they do look awesome), they are the most absurd addition to the game and they did s much more hamr than good by being squeezed in. It required that the GW writers literally write over existing materlal (Eldar).
I disagree. The initial iteration of Necron lore meshed with the 40k mythos very well. It was Lovecraftian and eldritch in ways no other faction, save perhaps the Slaves to Darkness period Chaos, ever managed to be.
nintura wrote: So definitely no mishap. You just setup 9" away without scatter.
I'd say that some units - Orks, maybe - might get less reliable methods, but then if they're doing away with the Scatter Dice I'm not sure what methods they'd use in that case.
I doubt it. There really isn't a reason to handicap them.
So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Youn wrote: I am guessing based off that, there isn't a roll to bring in your troops? Because if you don't bring them in by 3rd turn they are just destroyed.
Yup, though I imagine like the Trygon, most units with these rules will state "at the end of any movement phase" so as to avoid having to state they don't get additional movement.
Youn wrote: I am guessing based off that, there isn't a roll to bring in your troops? Because if you don't bring them in by 3rd turn they are just destroyed.
I actually really like this.
The whole point of military reserves is to deploy them when they're needed, where they're needed.
Leaving their deployment to chance always struck me as a little odd.
Huge changes to reserves. The Trygon exemplifies a few - no scatter at all, charge from "deep strike" , choose when it comes in, no withholding after turn 3. All of which sounds great to me, honestly.
No scatter deep strikes seem fine; the "risk-reward" was never really a key decision IMO - you could either deep strike a unit and risk losing it to random rolls, not know when it enters, plus not being able to charge when it does, or you could just deploy normally. I can't think of a single unit which could deep strike which did so without protection from mishaps - losing them (at least for some units) will mean this is actually a tactical option instead of no real choice at all. Seems good to me.
Charging from deep strike - saw it coming to be honest. This is why I suspected 'T''a'u could fall out of combat without penalty yesterday; falling back from combat is a safety valve where you can't just tarpit forever, so there's no reason to actually restrict deep strike charges any more - it's little different from shooting on the first turn if it doesn't lock you in combat until you die. Nevertheless, I'm happy about it, though I imagine many won't be. Terminators are looking a lot scarier, right? I even said yesterday they might be borderline OP if they could just teleport in and assault; well, now we know they probably will be able to do exactly that. This definitely tilts the scales towards assault IMO, and frankly it's been a long time coming.
Choosing when to come in I actually love as a change. I've long been of the opinion, even earlier in this thread, that reserves are nonsense in the current rules; there are few battles in real life where the general can't command when and where reserves should go with a large degree of accuracy, and those where that's not the case usually end in that side losing badly. They are now, functionally, actual reserves - units held back so that you can use them, but don't benefit from their strength at the beginning. Great change IMO.
No withholding after turn 3 - fine, just a measure to stop last second objective grabbing. It's a safety valve rule, and I'm fine with that.
Half of army must start of field - ehhh, I guess this is related to the deep strike assault change, but I don't like it overly. What it's clearly intending to prevent is holding an entire assault army in reserve, then doing a full army charge first turn from deep strike. I get it, and it seems reasonable. The reason I dislike it is solely because I adore seeing drop pod armies, and this stops that; there are few battles which feel more stereotypical "40k" than marines entering via drop pods and coming in all guns blazing, and I'll be very sad to see that disappear. But whatever, I'll take that loss for all the other positive gains.
IMO, a very impactful and good update for the game.
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....
Most people probably want to move the thread on to the latest topic, but I'll make one final point about the 40k fluff:
What GW did to the Necron fluff was a bad bad blunder in my eyes.
You had these scary, merciless machines popping up from nowhere, almost the image of death, and very hard to kill,
and GW had to turn them into Ancient Egypt, thus robbing them off their power, fear factor, and mystery...
Years back, I used to do narrative scenarios with some average joe guardsman in the middle of nowhere, fighting a last ditch defence against these machines, and it was fun...
These days, you have no need to fill in the gaps about the Necrons with your imagination, because it has been done for you.
There was nothing wrong with GW dropping a hint here, a hint there, to add some spice to the Necrons, but chapter and verse?
It's like the missing primarchs - the power of the story and narrative is there because those missing primarchs are different to everybody.
And that made the game fun. Too much story is often not a good thing...
Latro_ wrote: How does a marine army of drop pods work in matched play?
lol physically deploy the drop pods already landed before your first turn?!
Lets say you have 8 units with droppods. 16 total units. Well your screwed, 8 pods go in reserve and 8 marine units go on the table, don't bring 8 droppods! Lesson learned.
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Some randomness is needed to keep things interesting. This is why AoS players didn't fuss about 2D6 charges. At 9" you have to make 8", which is 15/36.
Imateria wrote: Finally, the Subterranean Assault rule will actually work!
Trygons become Drop Pods now LOL
Yeah, it always annoyed me how Trygons usually came on at the same time as, or after, everything else making their tunnel completely useless. I can see this as a brilliant way to get a horde of Hormagaunts into battle with the rear lines of an enemy turn 2 with only a 6" charge (because they're placed within 3" of the Trygon) and leaving the only room for your opponent to fall back being towards the rest of the army.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Most people probably want to move the thread on to the latest topic, but I'll make one final point about the 40k fluff:
What GW did to the Necron fluff was a bad bad blunder in my eyes.
You had these scary, merciless machines popping up from nowhere, almost the image of death, and very hard to kill,
and GW had to turn them into Ancient Egypt, thus robbing them off their power, fear factor, and mystery...
Years back, I used to do narrative scenarios with some average joe guardsman in the middle of nowhere, fighting a last ditch defence against these machines, and it was fun...
These days, you have no need to fill in the gaps about the Necrons with your imagination, because it has been done for you.
There was nothing wrong with GW dropping a hint here, a hint there, to add some spice to the Necrons, but chapter and verse?
It's like the missing primarchs - the power of the story and narrative is there because those missing primarchs are different to everybody.
And that made the game fun. Too much story is often not a good thing...
Except that we already had a faction that didn't care about you. It only wanted to devour you and didn't care about anything else whatsoever.
At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.
Imateria wrote: Finally, the Subterranean Assault rule will actually work!
Trygons become Drop Pods now LOL
Yeah, it always annoyed me how Trygons usually came on at the same time as, or after, everything else making their tunnel completely useless. I can see this as a brilliant way to get a horde of Genestealers into battle with the rear lines of an enemy turn 2 with only a 6" charge (because they're placed within 3" of the Trygon) and leaving the only room for your opponent to fall back being towards the rest of the army.
No more "no one on the tabletop turn one". Excellent. I love the idea of drop pods, but I do think, especially for matched play, that some stuff should be on the table first turn. The 50-50 split they mention seems like a good compromise.
Also, for those deep strike truthers out there, it could have been worse - the rule is half your total units, when it could have been based on point value. So you can still probably DS a whole mess of killy stuff if that's what props your tent. It might take some army list massaging to get done (lots o' cheap troops), but that's something we're all very comfortable with.
Yep, it strikes me as a basically "You forgot, thats on you" rule.
I wonder how things like the Scout speeder Jamming beacon will work? Maybe there will be things that increase the range from that model.
I really REALLY hope intercept is nerfed. It basically made it so I couldnt take half of the models I wanted to. I hope they implement something like "Each unit may only shoot once per player turn" or something instead of the old overwatch after intercept rules.
However even more so than anything else we have seen movement and placement is going to be even more key than it was before.
They have streamlined the game and removed a LOT of randomness from things like movement and deployment.
There are so many things that you can now plan for instead of having areas where your entire battle plan gets screwed by a single gakky die role. You get more control over morale and fallbacks, you get more control over unit movement and placement, you dont scatter and can make an educated risk assessment with things like blast weapons.
One thing I REALLY like so far is that (with the example of the battle cannon) they are trying to give things their own unique role. Before it was always "Two things do this and this one is ALWAYS better"
Obviously I have some concerns and dont have the entire picture yet but I have to say as someone who has played since third this is the most excited for a new edition I have ever been!
Yeah, it always annoyed me how Trygons usually came on at the same time as, or after, everything else making their tunnel completely useless. I can see this as a brilliant way to get a horde of Hormagaunts into battle with the rear lines of an enemy turn 2 with only a 6" charge (because they're placed within 3" of the Trygon) and leaving the only room for your opponent to fall back being towards the rest of the army.
*IF* they are foolish enough to leave such a big gap in their lines.
Which means they need to huddle together. Which means more units get looped into charges.
casvalremdeikun wrote: At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.
Bonuses to charge are fine as long as there are no turn 1 deepstrikes allowed whatsoever.
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....
Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.
And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.
casvalremdeikun wrote: At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.
casvalremdeikun wrote: At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.
Warp Talons - Mwuahaha!
Oh gods I can't wait to see their rules.
Keep in mind, the Trygon arrives automatically, according to GW Facebook, some units might have to roll to arrive from Reserves. Which is fine, as long as my Blood Angels get a bonus or flat out automatically pass that roll.
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....
Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.
And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.
Oh well, we'll see.
Has it been confirmed that you can deepstrike on T1?
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....
Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.
And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.
Oh well, we'll see.
Has it been confirmed that you can deepstrike on T1?
The Trygon can automatically. GW Facebook said that other units might have to roll to do it.
From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?
They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"
Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.
I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....
Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.
And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.
Oh well, we'll see.
Has it been confirmed that you can deepstrike on T1?
I have read the article and the Trygon ability three times already and I see nothing saying against it. ESPECIALLY in the Trygon's ability....
En Excelsis wrote: Necrons (as awesome as the models look - and they do look awesome), they are the most absurd addition to the game and they did s much more hamr than good by being squeezed in. It required that the GW writers literally write over existing materlal (Eldar).
I disagree. The initial iteration of Necron lore meshed with the 40k mythos very well. It was Lovecraftian and eldritch in ways no other faction, save perhaps the Slaves to Darkness period Chaos, ever managed to be.
Then they got Warded.
There's no doubt that once Ward got involved things became worse, but IMO the whole introduction of them was flawed. Again - I really like the models. They look great - it's tough to be both frightening and simple, and they look like a skeleton made of metal - too much more would have been less intimidating. The models invoke a very 'Terminator' sense of imagery.
The reason I consider the whole faction to be such a missed opportunity is because there were so many things they could have done but didn't. For example, In the Dark Age of Technology when humanity first 'conquered' the galaxy, they had created the 'Iron Men', Which were Artificially Intelligent robots that eventually rose up against their masters and played a significant role in the collapse of that human empire. The Necrons would have been much more interesting if they had been written in this way - they are more advanced because they came from a period of greater technology. They would have weapons and armors, all stylized in the themes that were prominent in the civilization they were formerly a part of.
The whole Egyptian Dynasty thing just felt like an attempt to shoehorn the Tomb Kings into 40k - it's rushed and haphazard and the lore behind them is garbage. The re-re-re-retconned history of the C'tan and the Old Ones is some of the worst writing in the current setting.
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....
Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.
And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.
Oh well, we'll see.
Has it been confirmed that you can deepstrike on T1?
The Trygon can automatically. GW Facebook said that other units might have to roll to do it.
Not sure I like that. Means you have to plan your deployment before getting a turn. And you still dont know who will get to go first.
Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.
And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.
Oh well, we'll see.
Very likely. In AoS you can tell by the list whether or not they will try to teleport in on you so you need to plan accordingly.
Also in before "Tau are now useless! Burn everything!".
Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.
And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.
Oh well, we'll see.
Very likely. In AoS you can tell by the list whether or not they will try to teleport in on you so you need to plan accordingly.
Also in before "Tau are now useless! Burn everything!".
WTB Supreme Fire discipline back for my DA, please.
casvalremdeikun wrote: At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.
Warp Talons - Mwuahaha!
Oh gods I can't wait to see their rules.
I really liked the Warp Talons models but could never really get a consistent use for them in my FOC.
I like the reserve changes. Yeah, you can't have a full Deathwing or Droppod army deepstrike in the first turn, but thats why Matched Play puts "balance" before "fluffy". To have those fluffy armies you can have Narrative games.
And, En Excelsis, I just want to say that if you think Tau are genocidal, you just don't know their Lore. In the fact that they don't belong to the universe, I'm not gonna discuss thats. Is your opinion and is fine.
Leth wrote: From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?
They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"
Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.
I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?
Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.
To all those guys posting on here that the loss of vehicle armor facings and templates have made tactical positioning a thing of the past, today's "teleport" rules have squashed your arguments flat. Now with units arriving from reserves being allowed to launch assaults in the same turn BUT[i] must come in at least 9" away, model positioning is key. Make sure you have some chaff units in your list, guys, it's a whole new day.
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....
Highlighted for emphasis as it's exactly what I am brooding on. Nids with tunnels and Eldar popping out of webway gates with fleet.
And even without fleet one can still safely secure T1 charges with the Trygon and its accompannying unit because it doesn't specify that you can't do this on T1.
Oh well, we'll see.
It has to be said, I have failed 4" charges with Fleet before. Re-rolling that 2 is just as likely to give a 1 as anything else.
Leth wrote: From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?
They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"
Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.
I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?
Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.
Or maybe not, because Assault units will have more Attacks in their profile than not attacks units? And better meele weapons? Charge gives you to attack first, it doesn't need +1 attack on plus of that.
v0iddrgn wrote: To all those guys posting on here that the loss of vehicle armor facings and templates have made tactical positioning a thing of the past, today's "teleport" rules have squashed your arguments flat. Now with units arriving from reserves being allowed to launch assaults in the same turn BUT[i] must come in at least 9" away, model positioning is key. Make sure you have some chaff units in your list, guys, it's a whole new day.
Well, assaulting from reserves appears to be a thing. Good to know.
Barring special rules allowing closer placement, that means the assaulting army will need to roll a 9 on 2d6. Remember that the rules explicitly state you must place the deepstriking model OVER 9" away (not 9" or more, but OVER 9"), which means even with the 1" bubble, a roll of 8 or less cannot, by definition, engage an enemy model.
Also noticeable is that, with an over 9" placement requirement, you aren't going to get deepstriking meltaguns/combi-meltas into their half-range zone, which will help protect multi-wound models somewhat. You can, however, probably deepstrike Multimeltas (if they keep their range) and get the half-range melta bonus completely reliably. No wonder they got a price hike!
v0iddrgn wrote: To all those guys posting on here that the loss of vehicle armor facings and templates have made tactical positioning a thing of the past, today's "teleport" rules have squashed your arguments flat. Now with units arriving from reserves being allowed to launch assaults in the same turn BUT[i] must come in at least 9" away, model positioning is key. Make sure you have some chaff units in your list, guys, it's a whole new day.
Afraid you're mixing apples with oranges.
Tactical Positioning for vehicles is still a thing of the past. And it's no different than the positioning of chap already used to put infiltrators away from key units.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Well, assaulting from reserves appears to be a thing. Good to know.
Barring special rules allowing closer placement, that means the assaulting army will need to roll a 9 on 2d6. Remember that the rules explicitly state you must place the deepstriking model OVER 9" away (not 9" or more, but OVER 9"), which means even with the 1" bubble, a roll of 8 or less cannot, by definition, engage an enemy model.
Also noticeable is that, with an over 9" placement requirement, you aren't going to get deepstriking meltaguns/combi-meltas into their half-range zone, which will help protect multi-wound models somewhat. You can, however, probably deepstrike Multimeltas (if they keep their range) and get the half-range melta bonus completely reliably. No wonder they got a price hike!
Unusual Suspect wrote: Well, assaulting from reserves appears to be a thing. Good to know.
Barring special rules allowing closer placement, that means the assaulting army will need to roll a 9 on 2d6. Remember that the rules explicitly state you must place the deepstriking model OVER 9" away (not 9" or more, but OVER 9"), which means even with the 1" bubble, a roll of 8 or less cannot, by definition, engage an enemy model.
Also noticeable is that, with an over 9" placement requirement, you aren't going to get deepstriking meltaguns/combi-meltas into their half-range zone, which will help protect multi-wound models somewhat. You can, however, probably deepstrike Multimeltas (if they keep their range) and get the half-range melta bonus completely reliably. No wonder they got a price hike!
Yes? You deepstrike 9" then run them in, right? If you get over 3" then you get the melta bonus.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Most people probably want to move the thread on to the latest topic, but I'll make one final point about the 40k fluff:
What GW did to the Necron fluff was a bad bad blunder in my eyes.
You had these scary, merciless machines popping up from nowhere, almost the image of death, and very hard to kill,
and GW had to turn them into Ancient Egypt, thus robbing them off their power, fear factor, and mystery...
Years back, I used to do narrative scenarios with some average joe guardsman in the middle of nowhere, fighting a last ditch defence against these machines, and it was fun...
These days, you have no need to fill in the gaps about the Necrons with your imagination, because it has been done for you.
There was nothing wrong with GW dropping a hint here, a hint there, to add some spice to the Necrons, but chapter and verse?
It's like the missing primarchs - the power of the story and narrative is there because those missing primarchs are different to everybody.
And that made the game fun. Too much story is often not a good thing...
Except that we already had a faction that didn't care about you. It only wanted to devour you and didn't care about anything else whatsoever.
The Wardification of the Necrons was something that to this day is still annoying to witness. The old background was elegant, as it gave enough information, but also left enough out that it created mystery. Also it had the hall marks of ending a greater story to the 40k universe, one that was faught over and lost aeons ago, and wasn't Human centric. It was evident that the writers were heavily influenced by not only Lovecraft, but also Babylon 5. Also the Necrons while being mindless, were led by characters that oozed character, the C'tan, who had a plan for the galaxy beyond mindless consumption. The whole Pariah gene was instrumented by the C'tan, and was going to be their big way of closing the warp, so they could rule the material realm as the Gods they are, while feasting on the misery and pain they inflicted upon the galaxy.
All this was washed away and we had Tomb Kings in space, with hamfisted names at an attempt at puns, and some truly laughable models. The 3rd edition range was perfect, no elaborate onimentation, they looked practical, which given that they are were a machine race, made perfect sense. Also the Monolith to this day looks very alien and bizarre as an engine of war. Where the newer models are far too ostentatious, and have lost that simple elegance.
Galas wrote: I like the reserve changes. Yeah, you can't have a full Deathwing or Droppod army deepstrike in the first turn, but thats why Matched Play puts "balance" before "fluffy". To have those fluffy armies you can have Narrative games.
And, En Excelsis, I just want to say that if you think Tau are genocidal, you just don't know their Lore. In the fact that they don't belong to the universe, I'm not gonna discuss thats. Is your opinion and is fine.
I don't know that It's completely out of the cards yet. It is still possible that the Deathwing style of play could be replicated - we don't know what special rules those units will have after all.
I am fine dropping the discussion about the Tau since it isn't super relevant to this thread anyway, but the 'if you disagree with me than you just don't know' is a tad immature. There are a lot of reasons why I have my opinion and it seems like you could benefit from some additional reading outside of this thread.
Yeah, it always annoyed me how Trygons usually came on at the same time as, or after, everything else making their tunnel completely useless. I can see this as a brilliant way to get a horde of Hormagaunts into battle with the rear lines of an enemy turn 2 with only a 6" charge (because they're placed within 3" of the Trygon) and leaving the only room for your opponent to fall back being towards the rest of the army.
It's still 9". The unit accompanying the Trygon needs to be 9" away from enemy models.
Leth wrote: From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?
They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"
Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.
I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?
Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.
Or maybe not, because Assault units will have more Attacks in their profile than not attacks units? And better meele weapons? Charge gives you to attack first, it doesn't need +1 attack on plus of that.
If they put all the attacks I would be missing out on directly in the profile of the Assault Squad, I would be fine. Giving them 2 attacks base and a rule that gives +1 attack on the charge would be viable.
I just read Frankie's and Reece's articles on the factions... I didn't realize that there was "crunch" in there and not just "fluff."
He (Frankie I think) mentioned in the Daemons post that they had "invulnerable saves." I guess I was under the impression that that mechanic was no more and it was just generic saves? Did I misread that?
Also, he mentioned in Tau a "rerollable" to hit in the Tau article (excuse me, T'au). I thought re-rolls were potentially out too? Was I mentally wish-listing or something?
Leth wrote: From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?
They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"
Noticed that. It's gone.
Pretty sure the +1 attack for having a pistol and a close combat weapon is gone as well. Instead, pistols shoot into close combat during the shooting phase. Just speculation on my part.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Well, assaulting from reserves appears to be a thing. Good to know.
Barring special rules allowing closer placement, that means the assaulting army will need to roll a 9 on 2d6. Remember that the rules explicitly state you must place the deepstriking model OVER 9" away (not 9" or more, but OVER 9"), which means even with the 1" bubble, a roll of 8 or less cannot, by definition, engage an enemy model.
Also noticeable is that, with an over 9" placement requirement, you aren't going to get deepstriking meltaguns/combi-meltas into their half-range zone, which will help protect multi-wound models somewhat. You can, however, probably deepstrike Multimeltas (if they keep their range) and get the half-range melta bonus completely reliably. No wonder they got a price hike!
Yes? You deepstrike 9" then run them in, right? If you get over 3" then you get the melta bonus.
In the article:
Though that 9ā³ distance to the enemy (which is common to a lot of units with similar abilities) will mean that the averages on the dice will be against you for that 2D6 charge distance.
If you can move in the same phase you arrive, then "the averages on the dice" will not "be against you".
While it hasn't been explicitly stated, I think its reasonable to extrapolate that non-charge movement in the same phase you arrive by deepstrike is not going to be available (at least, not without bespoke rules).
Leth wrote: From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?
They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"
Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.
I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?
Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.
The may just increase their base Attacks stat - much easier.
Leth wrote: From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?
They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"
Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.
I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?
Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.
Or maybe not, because Assault units will have more Attacks in their profile than not attacks units? And better meele weapons? Charge gives you to attack first, it doesn't need +1 attack on plus of that.
Well we dont know how multiple melee weapons will work. What if having two weapons still gets you a bonus attack and pistols have the OPTION of not counting as a bonus weapon if you fire it during the shooting phase. Maybe instead if you have two weapons you have to allocate your attacks between the two to get +1 Attack rather than a pistol giving your legendary sword a bonus attack.
Who knows, so many options.
Also from what I understand(and I might be wrong) is that in AOS you alternate deploying units and whomever finishes first gets a bonus or goes first(not sure). So you can take a count and plan accordingly. So armies with a ton of units in reserve might be more likely to go first. Lots of context is needed.
They arrive at the end of the movement phase so they completely miss out on the opportunity to run(part of the units movement) and the opportunity to move(outside of being deployed) A nice compromise.
However a lot of these rules would not be possible if characters were allowed to join units as you could just slingshot units into assault with characters. It will be interesting to see, but I bet teleporting, subterranian, jump deep strike, etc will have slightly different rules and I think that will be awesome.
doktor_g wrote: I just read Frankie's and Reece's articles on the factions... I didn't realize that there was "crunch" in there and not just "fluff."
He (Frankie I think) mentioned in the Daemons post that they had "invulnerable saves." I guess I was under the impression that that mechanic was no more and it was just generic saves? Did I misread that?
Also, he mentioned in Tau a "rerollable" to hit in the Tau article (excuse me, T'au). I thought re-rolls were potentially out too? Was I mentally wish-listing or something?
Invulnerable saves are in. No idea if we can take both armor and invuln.
Rerolls are most certainly in and necessary in a D6 system.
I really liked the Warp Talons models but could never really get a consistent use for them in my FOC.
I expect that they won't be over costed like they are now. And their special rule won't be so random and target dependent.
Maybe. If I had my druthers I would just make better use of the 'blind' effect that results from their deepstrike. It would be more useful if they could not be targeted or overwatched on the turn they appear - it was what they were trying to do before just the models never replicated it on the table.
I'd prefer a bring in your reserves on a 2+ or something, but I quite like "Call it when you want it". Many units are going to assault directly from deepstrike, and I think that is OK in many ways. On the other hand, if they are taking out the random, they REALLY need to watch the game balance. For example they dodged a bullet with 9" away deepstrike, 8" flamer range. Otherwise crisis suits who hit you with 3-18 automatic hits (EACH) followed by another 3-18 automatic hits when you assaulted them were going to make any pure assault units utterly worthless. Still, could be really great done right. Fingers crossed.
Leth wrote: From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?
They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"
Something I didnt see mentioned and might be interesting to consider.
I am interested to see how the number of units in your army will be calculated. Since dedicated transports are bought for a detachment instead of a unit(a really welcome change I might add which circumvents the transports as force org chart issue). Does the pod and the unit count as two in reserve? What if they have 5 men in the unit and two characters. does that count as 4 units in reserve?
Man, I hope that they don't take that away. Perhaps the Daemons will get an additional +1 attack? Otherwise, if they take away Pistols giving +1 attack and charging giving +1 attack, Assault Marines are going to be garbage tier.
The may just increase their base Attacks stat - much easier.
I addressed that in a follow up post. I would be fine with that. It would be a net gain for my Assault Squads with Special Weapons instead of Pistols.
doktor_g wrote: I just read Frankie's and Reece's articles on the factions... I didn't realize that there was "crunch" in there and not just "fluff."
He (Frankie I think) mentioned in the Daemons post that they had "invulnerable saves." I guess I was under the impression that that mechanic was no more and it was just generic saves? Did I misread that?
Also, he mentioned in Tau a "rerollable" to hit in the Tau article (excuse me, T'au). I thought re-rolls were potentially out too? Was I mentally wish-listing or something?
Invulns ignore the Ap but donlt work against Mortal Wounds
Maybe. If I had my druthers I would just make better use of the 'blind' effect that results from their deepstrike. It would be more useful if they could not be targeted or overwatched on the turn they appear - it was what they were trying to do before just the models never replicated it on the table.
Ooh that could be cool - no overwatch versus Warp Talons on the turn they arrive. The sky is the limit for rules they can create.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kestral wrote: I'd prefer a bring in your reserves on a 2+ or something, but I quite like "Call it when you want it". Many units are going to assault directly from deepstrike, and I think that is OK in many ways. On the other hand, if they are taking out the random, they REALLY need to watch the game balance. For example they dodged a bullet with 9" away deepstrike, 8" flamer range. Otherwise crisis suits who hit you with 3-18 automatic hits (EACH) followed by another 3-18 automatic hits when you assaulted them were going to make any pure assault units utterly worthless. Still, could be really great done right. Fingers crossed.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Most people probably want to move the thread on to the latest topic, but I'll make one final point about the 40k fluff:
What GW did to the Necron fluff was a bad bad blunder in my eyes.
You had these scary, merciless machines popping up from nowhere, almost the image of death, and very hard to kill,
and GW had to turn them into Ancient Egypt, thus robbing them off their power, fear factor, and mystery...
Years back, I used to do narrative scenarios with some average joe guardsman in the middle of nowhere, fighting a last ditch defence against these machines, and it was fun...
These days, you have no need to fill in the gaps about the Necrons with your imagination, because it has been done for you.
There was nothing wrong with GW dropping a hint here, a hint there, to add some spice to the Necrons, but chapter and verse?
It's like the missing primarchs - the power of the story and narrative is there because those missing primarchs are different to everybody.
And that made the game fun. Too much story is often not a good thing...
Except that we already had a faction that didn't care about you. It only wanted to devour you and didn't care about anything else whatsoever.
The Wardification of the Necrons was something that to this day is still annoying to witness. The old background was elegant, as it gave enough information, but also left enough out that it created mystery. Also it had the hall marks of ending a greater story to the 40k universe, one that was faught over and lost aeons ago, and wasn't Human centric. It was evident that the writers were heavily influenced by not only Lovecraft, but also Babylon 5. Also the Necrons while being mindless, were led by characters that oozed character, the C'tan, who had a plan for the galaxy beyond mindless consumption. The whole Pariah gene was instrumented by the C'tan, and was going to be their big way of closing the warp, so they could rule the material realm as the Gods they are, while feasting on the misery and pain they inflicted upon the galaxy.
All this was washed away and we had Tomb Kings in space, with hamfisted names at an attempt at puns, and some truly laughable models. The 3rd edition range was perfect, no elaborate onimentation, they looked practical, which given that they are were a machine race, made perfect sense. Also the Monolith to this day looks very alien and bizarre as an engine of war. Where the newer models are far too ostentatious, and have lost that simple elegance.
I like my Tomb Kings in space. Maybe it sucks for people who only liked the old fluff (though you can easily still make a Dynasty with that fluff), but I think it makes them a much more complete faction rather than just "Terminators in space".
kestral wrote: I'd prefer a bring in your reserves on a 2+ or something, but I quite like "Call it when you want it". Many units are going to assault directly from deepstrike, and I think that is OK in many ways. On the other hand, if they are taking out the random, they REALLY need to watch the game balance. For example they dodged a bullet with 9" away deepstrike, 8" flamer range. Otherwise crisis suits who hit you with 3-18 automatic hits (EACH) followed by another 3-18 automatic hits when you assaulted them were going to make any pure assault units utterly worthless. Still, could be really great done right. Fingers crossed.
We haven't seen the stat line for Crisis suit flamers. We do know that Flame pistols and Flamers have different ranges (6" and 8" respectively) for the Rubric Marines, and things like Heavy flamers and xenos flamers could easily have an extra few inches in range.
Yes, I'm aware that currently the Crisis Suit flamers are no different from the basic Imperium flamer, but its always possible that could change.
But yeah, the over 9" range is going to limit the ability to drop and fry units the turn you arrive (even our 18" Fusion Blaster won't be able to get within half-range for the boosted damage).
Yes? You deepstrike 9" then run them in, right? If you get over 3" then you get the melta bonus.
You can't make any run or other moves after teleporting in AoS.
Nor can you shoot after running in 8th (thats already been confirmed, though I expect Battle Focus will still let you do so).
I'm pretty sure the deployment is at the end of the movement phase. And as running is done in the Movement phase I think it is a way of implying that units can't reseve deploy and run on the same turn.
Something worth noting, I'm thinking this means that everything previously with Jump/Jet Pack will no longer be able to Deep Strike. This might mean the death of Farsight bombs, but who knows.
Requizen wrote: Something worth noting, I'm thinking this means that everything previously with Jump/Jet Pack will no longer be able to Deep Strike. This might mean the death of Farsight bombs, but who knows.
If I had to guess the FLY rule might confer some form of deepstrike. I am guessing that Jump packs/Jet packs are being rolled into the same rule and its just a matter of your movement value that determines how far you go. Do we know how far people fallback from combat or is it also tied to your movement value?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Most people probably want to move the thread on to the latest topic, but I'll make one final point about the 40k fluff:
What GW did to the Necron fluff was a bad bad blunder in my eyes.
You had these scary, merciless machines popping up from nowhere, almost the image of death, and very hard to kill,
and GW had to turn them into Ancient Egypt, thus robbing them off their power, fear factor, and mystery...
Years back, I used to do narrative scenarios with some average joe guardsman in the middle of nowhere, fighting a last ditch defence against these machines, and it was fun...
These days, you have no need to fill in the gaps about the Necrons with your imagination, because it has been done for you.
There was nothing wrong with GW dropping a hint here, a hint there, to add some spice to the Necrons, but chapter and verse?
It's like the missing primarchs - the power of the story and narrative is there because those missing primarchs are different to everybody.
And that made the game fun. Too much story is often not a good thing...
Except that we already had a faction that didn't care about you. It only wanted to devour you and didn't care about anything else whatsoever.
The Wardification of the Necrons was something that to this day is still annoying to witness. The old background was elegant, as it gave enough information, but also left enough out that it created mystery. Also it had the hall marks of ending a greater story to the 40k universe, one that was faught over and lost aeons ago, and wasn't Human centric. It was evident that the writers were heavily influenced by not only Lovecraft, but also Babylon 5. Also the Necrons while being mindless, were led by characters that oozed character, the C'tan, who had a plan for the galaxy beyond mindless consumption. The whole Pariah gene was instrumented by the C'tan, and was going to be their big way of closing the warp, so they could rule the material realm as the Gods they are, while feasting on the misery and pain they inflicted upon the galaxy.
All this was washed away and we had Tomb Kings in space, with hamfisted names at an attempt at puns, and some truly laughable models. The 3rd edition range was perfect, no elaborate onimentation, they looked practical, which given that they are were a machine race, made perfect sense. Also the Monolith to this day looks very alien and bizarre as an engine of war. Where the newer models are far too ostentatious, and have lost that simple elegance.
Requizen wrote: Something worth noting, I'm thinking this means that everything previously with Jump/Jet Pack will no longer be able to Deep Strike. This might mean the death of Farsight bombs, but who knows.
Which never made sense to me... I always thought that the fact that those models had jump packs would make it MUCH easier for them to deploy from a Thunderhawk during a flyover and arrive on the table from above... Deppstrike isn't limited to drop pods and teleportariums
These rules look oddly familiar.....
Trygon rules:
Spoiler:
Arkanaut Frigate rule:
Spoiler:
Disembark:
Any unit that begins its hero phase embarked within an Arkanaut Frigate can disembark during the hero phase. When a unit
disembarks, set it up so that all its models are within 3" of the vessel and none are within 3" of any enemy models ā any disembarking model that
cannot be set up in this way is slain.
Units that disembark can then act normally, including using abilities that can be used in the hero phase, for the remainder of their turn. Note
that a unit cannot both disembark and embark in the same turn.
Stormfiend rule:
Spoiler:
Grinderfist Tunnelers:
If a unit of Stormfiends includes any models equipped with Grinderfists, you can place the unit to one side instead of setting it up on the battlefield as the Stormfiends
tunnel underground. In any of your movement phases, the Stormfiends may attempt to resurface onto the battlefield. If they do so, roll a dice. On the roll of a 1
or 2, the Stormfiends have become lost ā they do not resurface this turn but you can try rolling again in your next movement phase. On the roll of a 3 or more, set up the
Stormfiends anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy models. This is the unitās move for that movement phase.
It looks like 9" away from your opponent seems to be the standard for a unit coming onto the board in AoS. And the disembark rules pretty much wipe out people that cannot deploy.
Like....like how Horus just sort of dropped his shields, allowing The Emperor to board and fight him one-on-one? I mean, what a stroke of luck, eh?
Or how Khaine wasn't actually destroyed by Slaanesh, and instead became shards of himself because narrative reasons.
Or how Tyranids, a latecomer species to Rogue Trader, just sort of appeared in the galaxy because
Deus ex machine : a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the inspired and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability or object.
None of your examples really fit.
His Master's Voice wrote:
En Excelsis wrote: Necrons (as awesome as the models look - and they do look awesome), they are the most absurd addition to the game and they did s much more hamr than good by being squeezed in. It required that the GW writers literally write over existing materlal (Eldar).
I disagree. The initial iteration of Necron lore meshed with the 40k mythos very well. It was Lovecraftian and eldritch in ways no other faction, save perhaps the Slaves to Darkness period Chaos, ever managed to be.
Then they got Warded.
Anyone who thinks the old Necron fluff is any more "Lovecraftian" than the new fluff has only a surface understanding of Lovecraft. An entire race fooled by their god into literally feeding themselves to their pantheon? Have you read nothing involving Nyarlathotep?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Years back, I used to do narrative scenarios with some average joe guardsman in the middle of nowhere, fighting a last ditch defence against these machines, and it was fun...
These days, you have no need to fill in the gaps about the Necrons with your imagination, because it has been done for you.
The modus operandi of most dynasties upon awakening to find their homeworlds occupied is to:
A) slaughter the trespassers
B) capture the trespassers and experiment to see if they might be good candidates for reversing biotransference (this often results in some of option "A")
C) offer to spare the trespassers so long as they serve the dynasty (this can often mean option "B")
Can't see why your narrative scenario should be any different.
casvalremdeikun wrote:At 9", you are getting your charge off less than 50% of the time. I am hoping for stuff like Jump Packs to aid in charging, so stuff like Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, and Raptors to be able to get in the turn they arrive though.
Most assault armies in AoS have some way to increase charge range. I wouldn't worry too much about making a 9" charge.
Youn wrote: It looks like 9" away from your opponent seems to be the standard for a unit coming onto the board in AoS. And the disembark rules pretty much wipe out people that cannot deploy.
This was pretty much always the case, right? I can't remember a rule set where if you couldn't deploy you were anything other than destroyed.
Yes, some of these rules are almost identical to the AoS equivalents... is that a bad thing? It seems to me that if it's not broken and works better than the old system, it's better to adopt it than not; I'm not a fan of changing rules for the sole difference of having them be different, with no justification for having done so.
Some units in AoS with a character in play can drop closer than 9". It is a possibility - with a point cost attached.
He's talking about breaking the fundamental rule that all armies must have half their units deployed before the game. Which will almost certainly apply universally.
If the Fly keyword doesn't grant a Deepstriking ability, then Sniper Drones at least don't appear to be able to Deepstrike (they couldn't before due to the Marksman in the unit, but they were also Jet Pack infantry), but that doesn't prevent other Jet Pack units like Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, and Riptides from having bespoke deepstriking rules.
If Fly does grant Deepstriking, then that will be one hard-working key word.
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....
kestral wrote: Otherwise crisis suits who hit you with 3-18 automatic hits (EACH) followed by another 3-18 automatic hits when you assaulted them were going to make any pure assault units utterly worthless. Still, could be really great done right. Fingers crossed.
I play tau, and I'd honestly prefer if they didnt give the suits a means to enter via 'deep strike'
nintura wrote: So you no longer roll to get them from reserves. You choose when they come in? And you have to have everything on the table by turn 3. And they can assault. No scatter. Wow.
It does makes reserve management much, much less random and more tactical - a clear improvement imo.
I find it funny how they remove randomness in some aspects and add them in others.
I am not sure that I'm sold on the whole "Assault after coming from reserves" but that remains to be seen.
Well, as stated, the odds are against you making that charge given the average will be 7". Plus overwatch. However, with Nids and Fleet....
8 enough. No need to get to b2b. 42%
As mentioned earlier, 8 is NOT enough, because you have to be MORE THAN 9" away, which means an 8" charge and a 1" engagement bubble will never be enough to engage an enemy model.
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Drukhari
Continuing our Faction Focus series for the new Warhammer 40,000, Frankie returns to tell us about what we can expect from the Dark Eldar, or the Drukhari, as they call themselves.
Frankie is one of the team who runs some of the biggest Warhammer 40,000 events in the world, including the Las Vegas Open and the recently announced SoCal Open. Heās also been part of the playtesting team for the new edition and has a particular soft spot for the forces of Commorragh.
Drukhari, also known as the Dark Eldar, are absolutely my favourite faction due to their background. They are like space pirates of the roughest sort mixed with a dash of maniacal arena combatants sprinkled with the bizarre and terrifying Haemonculus Covens. This forms a potent cocktail of evil which Iām sure we can all agree is awesome! They constantly fight amongst themselves for political power and to gain status by any means possible. When not stabbing one another in the back, they stage horrific raids into realspace for slaves and treasure. They must constantly seek ways to preserve their lifespans, as they do not have the protection of the infinity circuit used by their craftworld kin to shield their spirits from Slaanesh when they die.
Drukhari do not currently get a lot of attention on the top competitive tables. They can struggle to make it into close combat and often get cut down by overwatch before they get to swing. Their shooting, while potentially deadly, relies heavily on their Poisoned weapons which suffer against many armies.
What I want is Raiders flying around with guys shooting poisoned needles out of the back. I want close combat units that are feared and some cool (hopefully extra dirty!) tricks I can use to gain (unfair) advantage during battle as is befitting of a low down dirty space pirate!
In the new Warhammer 40,000, Raiders are exactly what they should be. They are blisteringly fast, open topped transports that deliver warriors where you need them but remain a little fragile. Open Topped vehicles allow you to shoot out of them still, which is a massive benefit. You can even fire Pistol weapons out of the vehicle when it is engaged in close combat! However, Raiders are nowhere near the paper thin deathtraps they could be in the past. Venoms, as well, are absolutely fantastic vehicles, and due to the changes to the core rules of the game, all of their weapons now have at least a chance to hurt even resilient vehicles on a 6 to wound (representing that lucky hit through a vision slit, or punching through a weakened section of armour).
These vehicles are restored to glory, allowing you to zoom around the battlefield and get your troops into key positions. They are also armed with strong weapons beyond splinter cannons. You can have a dark lance, which will give you serious punch to open other peopleās transports or take down large creatures with a strength of 8, an AP of -4 and D6 damage. Or you can go with the disintegrator cannon, which has three shots that all do 2 damage at AP -3.
With a toughness value and wounds, these vehicles are also much more durable. Lastly, these vehicles have a 5+ invulnerable save versus shooting attacks which will help when getting blasted by heavy weapons, and they ignore the -1 penalty to shooting heavy weapons after moving, keeping them agile. You can imagine how potent Ravagers will be with these rules!
What about some of those iconic melee units, such as Incubi? They are my absolute favourite unit in the entire Drukhari range, and they are now truly frightening combatants. They have a klaive that hits at +1 Strength and AP -3ā¦ yikes thatās going to hurt! The leader of a unit is a beast as well, gaining +2 damage if he rolls a 6 to wound. This unit will be dominating their Fight phases in the new Warhammer 40,000. When you pair them up with some of the characters for added bonuses, such as the man himself, Drazhar, you will have a devastating combo. I am happily painting more for my army, now!
Wyches will be seen in greater numbers too. Honestly, this might be one of the top 3 most improved units in all of the new edition! They get the 4+ invulnerable save in the Fight phase, just like before, and can now dish out some damage in combat. Their hydra gauntlets and razorflails are fantastic, giving their attacks -1 AP. But their real talent is in the No Escape special rule.
When an enemy infantry unit in melee tries to Fall Back out of combat with Wyches, they can only do so if they win a roll-off with you. That is so incredibly powerful because it will protect your close combat units from getting shot and allows you to kill whatever you are locked in combat with. Units like the Tāau Crisis Suits I was telling you about last time will no longer be able to simply leave combat and shoot you to bits! The Wyches have been a lot of fun to play with and will be accompanying my Incubi on the tabletop for a vicious one-two combo.
I hope all you Drukhari players are as excited to put your armies on the tables as I am. There are so many more exciting developments to talk about with this faction but so little time. I didnāt even get to touch on Haemonculus Covens! But all of that will come in time.
So, you know how everyone got worried about the free fall back rule? Well wyches can negate that.
I know I am! Dark Lances are AP -4! Good trade for the shorter range vs. Lascannon. Raiders sound amazing and don't suffer the movement penalty to firing heavy weapons and Disintegrators actually sound really good!
They have streamlined the game and removed a LOT of randomness from things like movement and deployment.
There are so many things that you can now plan for instead of having areas where your entire battle plan gets screwed by a single gakky die role. You get more control over morale and fallbacks, you get more control over unit movement and placement, you dont scatter and can make!
Which might be good if you want chess, less so id you want wargame. Generals and soldiers don't have god view like players have.
40k moves more and more away from war to abstract marker pushing
"But their real talent is in the No Escape special rule. When an enemy infantry unit in melee tries to Fall Back out of combat with Wyches, they can only do so if they win a roll-off with you. That is so incredibly powerful because it will protect your close combat units from getting shot and allows you to kill whatever you are locked in combat with. Units like the Tāau Crisis Suits I was telling you about last time will no longer be able to simply leave combat and shoot you to bits!"
They have streamlined the game and removed a LOT of randomness from things like movement and deployment.
There are so many things that you can now plan for instead of having areas where your entire battle plan gets screwed by a single gakky die role. You get more control over morale and fallbacks, you get more control over unit movement and placement, you dont scatter and can make!
Which might be good if you want chess, less so id you want wargame. Generals and soldiers don't have god view like players have.
40k moves more and more away from war to abstract marker pushing
Really? One of the Massive complaints about 40k was the randomness and loads of knee jerk reaction to the random charge range was shown earlier.
Venoms should be interesting... I kind of think the Incubi took a slight nerf - hopefully a point reduction will accompany that. Farewell AP2 Klaives :(
kronk wrote: "But their real talent is in the No Escape special rule. When an enemy infantry unit in melee tries to Fall Back out of combat with Wyches, they can only do so if they win a roll-off with you. That is so incredibly powerful because it will protect your close combat units from getting shot and allows you to kill whatever you are locked in combat with. Units like the Tāau Crisis Suits I was telling you about last time will no longer be able to simply leave combat and shoot you to bits!"
Very interesting!
Yeha I am hoping characters like Lelith give a bonus to the roll.
Maybe. If I had my druthers I would just make better use of the 'blind' effect that results from their deepstrike. It would be more useful if they could not be targeted or overwatched on the turn they appear - it was what they were trying to do before just the models never replicated it on the table.
Ooh that could be cool - no overwatch versus Warp Talons on the turn they arrive. The sky is the limit for rules they can create.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kestral wrote: I'd prefer a bring in your reserves on a 2+ or something, but I quite like "Call it when you want it". Many units are going to assault directly from deepstrike, and I think that is OK in many ways. On the other hand, if they are taking out the random, they REALLY need to watch the game balance. For example they dodged a bullet with 9" away deepstrike, 8" flamer range. Otherwise crisis suits who hit you with 3-18 automatic hits (EACH) followed by another 3-18 automatic hits when you assaulted them were going to make any pure assault units utterly worthless. Still, could be really great done right. Fingers crossed.
Dodged a bullet or were deliberately aware?
I'm going with deliberately aware. This edition is a hard reset. That's not to say in the future bloat won't catch up but this is thier attempt at full codex and cross codex balance. I haven't seen a natural invul greater than 5++ (tzetch with the 4++ of course) and a reroll ability higher than rerolling 1s. And all of that is because they are trying to balance the game. With all the bespoke rules it's nearly impossible to see how anybarmy will play and I will have almost no idea how anyone else's armies will play, but things like null deploy, 2+ rerollable invuls, and invis psychic power look gone.
The wording of No Escape seems to suggest it won't be unique to Wyches. And it looks like you just need one model with the rule to force the roll-off. I might prefer to go with a Succubus rather than an entire unit of Wyches.
That's a pretty important roll for a Dark Eldar player to save command points for.
Unusual Suspect wrote: If the Fly keyword doesn't grant a Deepstriking ability, then Sniper Drones at least don't appear to be able to Deepstrike (they couldn't before due to the Marksman in the unit, but they were also Jet Pack infantry), but that doesn't prevent other Jet Pack units like Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, and Riptides from having bespoke deepstriking rules.
If Fly does grant Deepstriking, then that will be one hard-working key word.
Isnt that the point of streamlining? Fewer words you have to memorize and account for individual differences on the data sheet.
Also there is PLENTY of randomness still in the game. Charges, attacking, ex blast weapons, wounds dealt, etc. It has just been limited to the same sort of areas instead of having it built into EVERY aspect of the game. Its the same reason why when I DM in D & D I assume people are "taking 10" in most situations unless they say otherwise.
A charismatic bard isn't going to open negotiations by calling the trader a horse fether. However if he tries to go above his skills he might actually perform worse, resulting in him calling them a horse fether.
They are also removing a lot of the minutia thats effectiveness was purely based on the knowledge/skill of your opponent, allowing you to make a more educated decision in list building.
For example: I knew the multicharge rules like the back of my hand and I knew most people had a flawed understanding of how multicharge worked. I never lied or cheater. However most of my opponents had a flawed understanding of how it worked and so would not position accordingly. This was an in game advantage because I had understanding of a very specific circumstance, not any tactical ability.
Blasts is another one. Instead of making it about how anal retentive your OPPONENT was to determine the strength of a weapon it is inherent to the weapon itself and so you can make an educated decision
Unusual Suspect wrote: If the Fly keyword doesn't grant a Deepstriking ability, then Sniper Drones at least don't appear to be able to Deepstrike (they couldn't before due to the Marksman in the unit, but they were also Jet Pack infantry), but that doesn't prevent other Jet Pack units like Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits, Ghostkeels, and Riptides from having bespoke deepstriking rules.
If Fly does grant Deepstriking, then that will be one hard-working key word.
Isnt that the point of streamlining? Fewer words you have to memorize and account for individual differences on the data sheet.
Absolutely, and I'm not complaining if Fly does grant it.
Just an observation that the Fly keyword seems more and more to look like one of the few surviving USRs, with a fair number of rules not listed in the datasheet (granting the ability to shoot after Falling Back, presumably granting the ability to ignore intervening models/terrain when moving, presumably granting some form of deepstrike, and possibly more).
Which would not be a bad thing, necessarily. Reducing the current USR bloat into just a few keywords would keep things manageable.
Remember, if your opponent is within 1" you cannot shoot during shooting phase anything but a pistol. So, if they are outside of the vehicle pounding on the side of it. You need to fire pistols not rifles.
Raiders sound amazing and don't suffer the movement penalty to firing heavy weapons and Disintegrators actually sound really good!
They don't suffer much of a move penalty now and most folks give em the 5++ as standard right?
Sounds like jink is gone though,,,,
dark lances look good though
Only the Venom can have a Flickerfield for the 5++, they removed that option for our other vehicles in 7th. Docdoom also meant the Ravager, not Raider, which lost it's ability to move more than 6" and fire all weapons at full BS in 7th but now has not only regained that but doesn't suffer the -1 to BS that most units get when firing Heavy weapons. Firing 3 S8, AP-4 (thats a boost, was expecting it to be -3 like a Lascannon) D: D6 means there's potential to take down a Morkanaught in a single round with a single Ravager now.
I wonder if Disintegrators are S5 still, being Heavy 3, AP-3, D2 means they'll still be able to mow down heavy infantry like Terminators.
Oaka wrote: The wording of No Escape seems to suggest it won't be unique to Wyches. And it looks like you just need one model with the rule to force the roll-off. I might prefer to go with a Succubus rather than an entire unit of Wyches.
That's a pretty important roll for a Dark Eldar player to save command points for.
Haha yup - oh I rolled a 1 and you rolled a 2? Reroll! Of course Tau can too if they have the CP...
Or you can go with the disintegrator cannon, which has three shots that all do 2 damage at AP -3.
Assuming BS 4, this is a pretty steady gun.
It also opens up the possibility of weapons like the Plasma Gun doing 2 damage at AP -3 or gives an idea how the Radium Carbine might work. Thankfully not all weapons will have to roll to determine the number of wounds they do.
I know I am! Dark Lances are AP -4! Good trade for the shorter range vs. Lascannon. Raiders sound amazing and don't suffer the movement penalty to firing heavy weapons and Disintegrators actually sound really good!
Shorter rang, less s. Odd. Lascannon might be better tank buster now
En Excelsis wrote: Venoms should be interesting... I kind of think the Incubi took a slight nerf - hopefully a point reduction will accompany that. Farewell AP2 Klaives :(
-3 is the equivelant of AP2 so not really a change and the Klaivex being able to do 3 Damage on 6's to wound can potentially make him a character killer. The fact that the lack of Assault Grenades is no longer a problem means their utility probably just went up.
Oaka wrote: The wording of No Escape seems to suggest it won't be unique to Wyches. And it looks like you just need one model with the rule to force the roll-off. I might prefer to go with a Succubus rather than an entire unit of Wyches.
That's a pretty important roll for a Dark Eldar player to save command points for.
Haha yup - oh I rolled a 1 and you rolled a 2? Reroll! Of course Tau can too if they have the CP...
I say go ahead and waste a command point trying to get the opportunity to leave combat. That'sā one less use for something like Morale.
They have streamlined the game and removed a LOT of randomness from things like movement and deployment.
There are so many things that you can now plan for instead of having areas where your entire battle plan gets screwed by a single gakky die role. You get more control over morale and fallbacks, you get more control over unit movement and placement, you dont scatter and can make!
Which might be good if you want chess, less so id you want wargame. Generals and soldiers don't have god view like players have.
40k moves more and more away from war to abstract marker pushing
Really? One of the Massive complaints about 40k was the randomness and loads of knee jerk reaction to the random charge range was shown earlier.
Yeah well guess many want chess. I don't. I want to feel like general commanding battle. And that requires uncertainty to counter the unrealistic god view player has. Short of having 2 or 3 tables and gm(which btw can be great fun though not practical in 40k scale game. Superb for submarine game though when you are never sure of full situation. Is that weak sound enemy sub? Cargo freight? Somebody out there i haven't heard?) some random is needed. Not 100% but 0 is just as bad
casvalremdeikun wrote: I say go ahead and waste a command point trying to get the opportunity to leave combat. That'sā one less use for something like Morale.
Depends on the situation. A critical fight will have you in knots about whether or not to do it.
Yeah well guess many want chess. I don't. I want to feel like general commanding battle. And that requires uncertainty to counter the unrealistic god view player has. Short of having 2 or 3 tables and gm(which btw can be great fun though not practical in 40k scale game. Superb for submarine game though when you are never sure of full situation. Is that weak sound enemy sub? Cargo freight? Somebody out there i haven't heard?) some random is needed. Not 100% but 0 is just as bad
- You still have to choose where to place these things. There is no guarantee they make their charge.
- On the other end of it you need to carefully deploy to anticipate such problems.
- You need to decide when to use CP to best effect or what you can do to bait out your opponents CP.
- You need to direct fire to maximize the effect of weapons and failing that you need to prioritize your targets in a way that doesn't leave you vulnerable.
They have streamlined the game and removed a LOT of randomness from things like movement and deployment.
There are so many things that you can now plan for instead of having areas where your entire battle plan gets screwed by a single gakky die role. You get more control over morale and fallbacks, you get more control over unit movement and placement, you dont scatter and can make!
Which might be good if you want chess, less so id you want wargame. Generals and soldiers don't have god view like players have.
40k moves more and more away from war to abstract marker pushing
Really? One of the Massive complaints about 40k was the randomness and loads of knee jerk reaction to the random charge range was shown earlier.
Yeah well guess many want chess. I don't. I want to feel like general commanding battle. And that requires uncertainty to counter the unrealistic god view player has. Short of having 2 or 3 tables and gm(which btw can be great fun though not practical in 40k scale game. Superb for submarine game though when you are never sure of full situation. Is that weak sound enemy sub? Cargo freight? Somebody out there i haven't heard?) some random is needed. Not 100% but 0 is just as bad
Yeah, I must say I agree on this point: 40k isn't chess and should never be chess. Or I would be playing chess if I wanted to play chess. I'm not happy by this deepstrike change: I used to deeptrike very close to my opponent's units, and often it worked pretty well, now I don't even have a choice.
They have streamlined the game and removed a LOT of randomness from things like movement and deployment.
There are so many things that you can now plan for instead of having areas where your entire battle plan gets screwed by a single gakky die role. You get more control over morale and fallbacks, you get more control over unit movement and placement, you dont scatter and can make!
Which might be good if you want chess, less so id you want wargame. Generals and soldiers don't have god view like players have.
40k moves more and more away from war to abstract marker pushing
Really? One of the Massive complaints about 40k was the randomness and loads of knee jerk reaction to the random charge range was shown earlier.
Yeah well guess many want chess. I don't. I want to feel like general commanding battle. And that requires uncertainty to counter the unrealistic god view player has. Short of having 2 or 3 tables and gm(which btw can be great fun though not practical in 40k scale game. Superb for submarine game though when you are never sure of full situation. Is that weak sound enemy sub? Cargo freight? Somebody out there i haven't heard?) some random is needed. Not 100% but 0 is just as bad
Yeah, I must say I agree on this point: 40k isn't chess and should never be chess. Or I would be playing chess if I wanted to play chess. I'm not happy by this deepstrike change: I used to deeptrike very close to my opponent's units, and often it worked pretty well, now I don't even have a choice.
I despised Deep Strike scatter and am very happy it's gone. It's also another of tneva fallacies that we all want the game to be like chess, we don't, we want a happy medium between random events and certainties. 7th went far to far towards everything being random and I am very glad it's being rained back in whilst certain aspects remain random (charges shouldn't be a certianty for anything but really short range for example).
Oaka wrote: The wording of No Escape seems to suggest it won't be unique to Wyches. And it looks like you just need one model with the rule to force the roll-off. I might prefer to go with a Succubus rather than an entire unit of Wyches.
That's a pretty important roll for a Dark Eldar player to save command points for.
Haha yup - oh I rolled a 1 and you rolled a 2? Reroll! Of course Tau can too if they have the CP...
I say go ahead and waste a command point trying to get the opportunity to leave combat. That'sā one less use for something like Morale.
They have streamlined the game and removed a LOT of randomness from things like movement and deployment.
There are so many things that you can now plan for instead of having areas where your entire battle plan gets screwed by a single gakky die role. You get more control over morale and fallbacks, you get more control over unit movement and placement, you dont scatter and can make!
Which might be good if you want chess, less so id you want wargame. Generals and soldiers don't have god view like players have.
40k moves more and more away from war to abstract marker pushing
Really? One of the Massive complaints about 40k was the randomness and loads of knee jerk reaction to the random charge range was shown earlier.
Yeah well guess many want chess. I don't. I want to feel like general commanding battle. And that requires uncertainty to counter the unrealistic god view player has. Short of having 2 or 3 tables and gm(which btw can be great fun though not practical in 40k scale game. Superb for submarine game though when you are never sure of full situation. Is that weak sound enemy sub? Cargo freight? Somebody out there i haven't heard?) some random is needed. Not 100% but 0 is just as bad
Yeah, I must say I agree on this point: 40k isn't chess and should never be chess. Or I would be playing chess if I wanted to play chess. I'm not happy by this deepstrike change: I used to deeptrike very close to my opponent's units, and often it worked pretty well, now I don't even have a choice.
I despised Deep Strike scatter and am very happy it's gone. It's also another of tneva fallacies that we all want the game to be like chess, we don't, we want a happy medium between random events and certainties. 7th went far to far towards everything being random and I am very glad it's being rained back in whilst certain aspects remain random (charges shouldn't be a certianty for anything but really short range for example).
Problem is this went too far. Extremes are not good. Now there's zero variance with tervigon for example. 100% trustworthy. Totally unrealistic. Stupid godview
Going from too far one way to too far other way does not result in gappy medium. Just another extreme. Extremes either way are bad.
tneva82 wrote: Problem is this went too far. Extremes are not good. Now there's zero variance with tervigon for example. 100% trustworthy. Totally unrealistic. Stupid godview
Going from too far one way to too far other way does not result in gappy medium. Just another extreme. Extremes either way are bad.
Well, I guess some people want to play a game where decisions matter more than dice rolls, and others want chance to decide who wins. Clearly, you are in the opinion of the latter. That's fine and your choice; recognise, though, that many of us have been longing for these sort of changes to happen so that skill matters more than list building or dice rolling.
So, you have waited all those years that 40k, the beer and bretzel game, become chess, when there are so many others less random games out there ?
Full randomness is stupid. Playing deamons was probably a pain in 7th, but no randomness isn't good either. I do want my decision to be important, to be the key factor of winning and loosing. But I don't mind a little luck to shake things during a battle.
Okay, so after reading the DE post here is what I think I can extrapolate
So poisoned is a thing still and I am (guessing) it still wounds on a fixed value, however from what he said I am guessing that it has a special interaction with the vehicle key word where it only works on a 6.
Open Topped vehicles still allow you to shoot when it moves, so I am guessing that there is no longer cruising speed/combat speed. In addition if I had to guess fast will translate to "dont have -1 to shoot heavy weapons when they move" ability
If I had to guess the lance rule is being translated into +1 Armor Pen as a flat bonus to weapons.
So some weapons will do random damage and some weapons will do flat damage, interesting to see. I wonder if that is how they are going to combine weapons that had two profiles like the disintigrator.
Another thing is that on a 6 the klavix does a fixed number of additional wounds, which strikes me as a solid replacement for the instant death type weapons/rules
I am guessing Jink is being replaced with a 5+ invul save(unless that is to replace flicker fields but I doubt it).
Also an interesting thing to note is that wyches get the invul in the fight PHASE, so they will have their invul save against overwatch. Quite nice.
No escape is worded as a general rule, not necessarily wych specific so we will probably see it sprinkled around other armies. It definitely seems like a rule that should be a Command Point for some factions.
godardc wrote: So, you have waited all those years that 40k, the beer and bretzel game, become chess, when there are so many others less random games out there ?
Full randomness is stupid. Playing deamons was probably a pain in 7th, but no randomness isn't good either. I do want my decision to be important, to be the key factor of winning and loosing. But I don't mind a little luck to shake things during a battle.
And there is still plenty of randomness in the game that you need to adjust for. It just seems like it wont be as much of a game that completely swings based on dice, or indeed one or two dice rolls.
So many games I played were decided before the game even started. Did I get invis? Did He get invis? Did they get first turn? Did I get first turn. Pretty much we could predict the game at this point.
godardc wrote: So, you have waited all those years that 40k, the beer and bretzel game, become chess, when there are so many others less random games out there ? Full randomness is stupid. Playing deamons was probably a pain in 7th, but no randomness isn't good either. I do want my decision to be important, to be the key factor of winning and loosing. But I don't mind a little luck to shake things during a battle.
40k wasn't really a beer and pretzel game at inception, and only got enormously random with 6th. I also play other games, for various reasons, but 40k has the most interesting lore which is why I still enjoy playing despite the current gaping flaws with the rules. My opinion isn't at all that 40k should become chess but yes, when it comes to things such as knowing how you can move models, where they can be and how they can be used, my opinion is that they're an essential part to any game which even wants to think about being considered as mostly determined by skill. 40k hasn't got that - the current reserve and deep strike rules allow games to be lost before a single shot is fired, without any skill on the behalf of the victor. That's ridiculous and the opposite of what I'd consider fun, so yeah, I'm happy it's consigned to the dustbin.
I don't think anyone's going to argue against luck being a factor - I don't play ANY games without that element of chance. The key point is whether you think luck should be very decisive or possible to mitigate, and I lean heavily on the latter.
They have streamlined the game and removed a LOT of randomness from things like movement and deployment.
There are so many things that you can now plan for instead of having areas where your entire battle plan gets screwed by a single gakky die role. You get more control over morale and fallbacks, you get more control over unit movement and placement, you dont scatter and can make!
Which might be good if you want chess, less so id you want wargame. Generals and soldiers don't have god view like players have.
40k moves more and more away from war to abstract marker pushing
Really? One of the Massive complaints about 40k was the randomness and loads of knee jerk reaction to the random charge range was shown earlier.
Yeah well guess many want chess. I don't. I want to feel like general commanding battle. And that requires uncertainty to counter the unrealistic god view player has. Short of having 2 or 3 tables and gm(which btw can be great fun though not practical in 40k scale game. Superb for submarine game though when you are never sure of full situation. Is that weak sound enemy sub? Cargo freight? Somebody out there i haven't heard?) some random is needed. Not 100% but 0 is just as bad
Yeah, I must say I agree on this point: 40k isn't chess and should never be chess. Or I would be playing chess if I wanted to play chess. I'm not happy by this deepstrike change: I used to deeptrike very close to my opponent's units, and often it worked pretty well, now I don't even have a choice.
I despised Deep Strike scatter and am very happy it's gone. It's also another of tneva fallacies that we all want the game to be like chess, we don't, we want a happy medium between random events and certainties. 7th went far to far towards everything being random and I am very glad it's being rained back in whilst certain aspects remain random (charges shouldn't be a certianty for anything but really short range for example).
Problem is this went too far. Extremes are not good. Now there's zero variance with tervigon for example. 100% trustworthy. Totally unrealistic. Stupid godview
Going from too far one way to too far other way does not result in gappy medium. Just another extreme. Extremes either way are bad.
It's really just a natural outcome of removing scatter dice as a required tool for 40k. Making it a consistent distance also helps with balancing matched play lists a bit.
If random deep strikes are important to you, I would suggest playing narrative games with some variant of the following scenario rule:
Nominate a location on the battlefield where the unit will arrive, then roll 2D6+2 (to represent the 9" average). If the number rolled is less than the number of inches from the point to an enemy unit, the will have a mishap per older edition rules.
One nice thing about multiple ways to play is that the concept of 'house rules' is perfectly accounted for in narrative play.
But the thing I like more of warhammer is how variety it has. So the idea of months and months of power-armour releases don't interest me much (Only if they are womans with a bob-cut hair)
