I know I'm the champion of negativity about BA on here, but I've been thinking about Angel's Blade a lot. Here are some musings for other BA loyalists.

1) GW clearly intends BA to use red thirst, not obj sec. While CAD + formation is a viable strategy still, every other strategy has to be built around red thrist.

2) Given 1, is it time to rethink bare bones tac squads? In the Angel's blade formation, a vet sarge with a power sword, while costly, can potentially swing 4 times on the charge, S5 , init 5, AP3, rerolling misses. Obviously 2+ needs to be avoid, but other meqs crumble quickly against this onslaught. The whole counter argument about being challenged out has become a fairly rare occurance, becuase everyone is going minimalist and gearing towards shooting.

3) Lucifer task force: Does fast make the Land Raider viable? It doesn't fix the immobilization, but you will likely have a techmarine on board. It doesn't fix the suceptibility to D or melta or haywire, either. But it does really address the schizophrenic nature of the vehicle itself. Plus, it can scout for optimal shooting or forego that for turn 1 assault. Extra 6" if its in the lost brotherhood. Plus, scouting flamestorm cannons are back! Post grenade nerf and with all the jink saves, this is actually better than ever

Feel free to add on.

I'm with ya on the Lucifer Task Force. Trying to figure out the best list to plug it into. Maybe the Death Company detachment, as the Redeemers and flamestorm baals would move 6" closer from the jump.

Also, the Dreadnought formation is surprisingly appealing to me. 5 rifleman dreads (twin auto-cannons) getting to shoot twice on turn 1 (or 2 if the enemy is playing cheeky) drops a lot of long range S7 shots (though 600pts doesn't feel like a bargain). Dreadnoughts are pretty terrible...but long ranged dakka dreads that hide in ruins have a chance to be more effective than ones that are lumbering around, trying to smash the enemy to bits in close combat but ultimately being unable to catch said units.

I don't know. I played the demi company once already and a heavy flamer/assault cannon reguar dread in a pod did quite well. The biggest thing I miss is the magan grapple.

Orbital intervention force is pretty straight forward like Golden host but they are fluffy, expensive but can cause havoc when placed right. I like archangels strike force too even with the very very high requirements.

SM gets grav cannons to tacticals and relentless when podding with devastators.. New devastator dataslate is more like an middle finger at you. But like Martel says red thirst is the name of the game. Dunno if heavy flamer is a really better unique upgrade for tacticals rather than possibility to field a grav cannon. Atleast we are forced to play diffrently.

No, heavy flamer is not better. But we can spend the points on choppy stuff maybe.

Grav-cannons belong in units that are going to stand and shoot. Martel's tacticals will be moving a lot, making the heavy flamer a better choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you're going to take one at all.

I'm just not seeing anything for pure BA at 1850 in the book. Up at like 3k, the strike forces start to look really neat because you can actually fit in multiple formations while also kitting dudes out so they can hunt certain targets, but at tourney points level, just doing core + aux + one neat thing is like all you can do.

For plugging in to ally forces, I'm thinking of running double UM skyhammer with 3 duos of grav cannons, vet asm sarges with fists, and then the Dante sanguinary formation with 3 groups each with a fist in an itc event coming up. I feel like the general mayhem of double skyhammer will make a good situation for the SG to jump into.

I'm thinking the lucifer force plus CAD to load up the LR's may be a thing, alternatively some orbital assault termies loaded into FA pods (still considered DS reserve) could be nice. I'm unsure how the pod rules and the "these termie squads arrive at the same time" rules interact. I guess the formation rule would get ignored since you wouldn't roll for reserve in the first place. \o.o/

I've had a game with charge-termies once again and they were good. This time vs FW heavy CSM. Killed a warlord, smashed some sicarans and locked the opponent in his deployment zone. This time i ran grav bikes but they actually did more damage to my own list thanks to sorcabal special "go shoot yourself" thing. So, all in all, i'm pretty happy with my meganobz termies, of course termies.

They're gona face the new genestealer cult soon.

The one thing I find super annoying is that you can't put a priest in a bunch of the units without screwing up formation rules, apparently.

Chapter Ancients

Dreadnought w/ 2 twin-linked autocannons
Dreadnought w/ 2 twin-linked autocannons
Dreadnought w/ 2 twin-linked autocannons
Dreadnought w/ 2 twin-linked autocannons


ARCHANGEL'S DEMI-COMPANY

Terminator Captain
Furioso Dreadnought w/ frag cannon and Drop Pod
Furioso Dreadnought w/ frag cannon and Drop Pod
5 Assault Terminators w/ THSS
5 Sternguard Veterans w/ 2 Combi-meltas and Drop Pod
5 Sternguard Veterans w/ 2 Combi-meltas and Drop Pod
5 Sternguard Veterans and Drop Pod
5 Sternguard Veterans and Drop Pod

AUXILARY

Land Speeder /w 2 Heavy Bolters

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is a list I made last night. A bit spammy, but I like it's overall ability to put shots where I want them from the get go. Potential 32 S7 shots on turn 1 from the autocannon dreadnoughts alone.

Not 100% sold on the Assault Terminators...

I'd also like to add the 5th Dreadnought back into the Chapter Ancients formation (took it out after I realized I needed an Auxilary choice)

As much as I like it, I'm almost 100% certain it doesn't have enough alpha strike potential to do the necessary damage to make up for it's low model count. Opponents able to mount an effective Beta-strike would totally own this list.

We're doing a bit more 2K and 2.5K lately.

The lost brotherhood (DCSF + 10th CS + LATF) * 1850p*

Death company chaplain
5man death company + jump packs + power fist

Death company chaplain
5man death company + jump packs + power fist

Techmarine
10man death company + 2x power fist
Land raider redeemer

Death company dreadnought + blood talons
stormraven gunship

5man scout squad + CCW+BP + melta bombs

5man scout squad + CCW+BP + melta bombs

5man scout squad + 5x sniper rifles

Baal predator + flamestorm cannon

Predator

Predator

This is the best I can think of in fluffyness with only Angel's blade formations when speaking competetiveness. But the big question is that is there really point to add all this with cheap versions of tanks.

I've only played one game with the new formations, my list :

CAD:
cptn:bike,SS,art armor,valours edge
10 tac: flamer,heavy flamer,combiflamer -rhino
10 tac: flamer,heavy flamer,combiflamer,meltabombs -dpod

golden host:
8 sang:c.banner,3fist,1axe,1inferno pistol
6 sang:c.banner,2fist,1axe
dante

Chapter Ancients:
2 Furioso:frag cannon,heavy flamer -dpod
dread:TLLascannon,TLauto cannon

With this list everything starts in reserve besides the rhino,dread, and captain on a bike. Turn 1 both sang guards and furiosos drop down with a double tap and charge on DS. The marines are combat squadded for 6 Obj Secured units, the bike captain holds objectives if need be then joins a Guard squad for fun times.

I ended up vsing a necron decurion with the 2 annihilation barges/doomsday ark formation and a monolith

I went first, tried the golden host formation and both groups failed their charges due to the DS scatter then charging through terrain. the normal dread manged to kill a barge with his double tap and the furiosos only managed to fry 8 warrior with their double tap.. (necrons won it in turn 6 by killing the normal dread that was on an objective and scoring 4 points with cards, then the game ended, leaving me 3 points down)

I need to play more games with this list but I'm liking the concept so far, will be nice to roll a better alpha strike, and land a charge but gak happens, even with the terrible rolls I was able to apply serious pressure all game and it was never a lost cause. After the failed alpha strike I was able to hold my own and clear the board of a necron decurion army (only thing he had left at the end was the doomsday ark, 5 immortals, and a nightscythe)

 Dioxalyn wrote:
I've only played one game with the new formations, my list :

CAD:
cptn:bike,SS,art armor,valours edge
10 tac: flamer,heavy flamer,combiflamer -rhino
10 tac: flamer,heavy flamer,combiflamer,meltabombs -dpod

golden host:
8 sang:c.banner,3fist,1axe,1inferno pistol
6 sang:c.banner,2fist,1axe
dante

Chapter Ancients:
2 Furioso:frag cannon,heavy flamer -dpod
dread:TLLascannon,TLauto cannon

With this list everything starts in reserve besides the rhino,dread, and captain on a bike. Turn 1 both sang guards and furiosos drop down with a double tap and charge on DS. The marines are combat squadded for 6 Obj Secured units, the bike captain holds objectives if need be then joins a Guard squad for fun times.

I ended up vsing a necron decurion with the 2 annihilation barges/doomsday ark formation and a monolith

I went first, tried the golden host formation and both groups failed their charges due to the DS scatter then charging through terrain. the normal dread manged to kill a barge with his double tap and the furiosos only managed to fry 8 warrior with their double tap.. (necrons won it in turn 6 by killing the normal dread that was on an objective and scoring 4 points with cards, then the game ended, leaving me 3 points down)

I need to play more games with this list but I'm liking the concept so far, will be nice to roll a better alpha strike, and land a charge but gak happens, even with the terrible rolls I was able to apply serious pressure all game and it was never a lost cause. After the failed alpha strike I was able to hold my own and clear the board of a necron decurion army (only thing he had left at the end was the doomsday ark, 5 immortals, and a nightscythe)

Are you allowed to take the chapter banner twice?

Hmm, how can sanguinary guard deepstrike in T1? Golden host rule states T2 or later?

 koooaei wrote:
I've had a game with charge-termies once again and they were good. This time vs FW heavy CSM. Killed a warlord, smashed some sicarans and locked the opponent in his deployment zone. This time i ran grav bikes but they actually did more damage to my own list thanks to sorcabal special "go shoot yourself" thing. So, all in all, i'm pretty happy with my meganobz termies, of course termies.

They're gona face the new genestealer cult soon.

Bunting CSM isn't exactly an accomplishment though. I'm also surprised to hear that Sicarans were being used; I hadn't seen them since maybe a third of the way through 7th.

One game so far using the Lucifier formation with 3 Baal Preds with Flamestorm cannons and a Land Raider Redeemer. Seriously wow, this will make the other guy poop his pants if he doesn't have his infantry in vehicles. They can get across the board so fast. The Land Raider was my MVP, being fast makes it so much better.

The Baal Predator with a Flamestorm could be a great counter to Scatterbikes, but it would be bad against Spiders...

Agreed, but we have some good counters against the Spiders....Orbital Intervention, Golden host, or Death Company with the detachment on certain setups.

Also, not sure if this has been shared and it is only for those that are okay with allies, but this article has some interesting combinations as well:

https://greysplinter.wordpress.com/2016/09/22/angels-in-black-blitzkrieg-death-company-ravenwing/

Lucifer task force was the one that caught my eye before I even saw the book, when the leaks came out.that looks like an obvious winner. Chapter aincents seems pretty cool too. 6 templates per dread? Yes please.

Oddly enough Martel I was thinking the same thing about the red thirst yesterday. Combined with the chaplains ability it makes DC a much nastier unit, lightening claws have a place again and tac squads can do work in CC (in theory).

Once I finish converting my Preds I'll give it a whirl. The big downside being in can't think of any other SM army that's as dice-gods dependant (maybe grey knights?)

EDIT: I Anyone thinking MSU tacs with a HF and CC sarge would be worth a shot?

We can still go CAD + some formation, but everything else is pushing red thirst.

I think Lucifer+LBSF has some serious potential and is what I'm currently working on, especially since you can give the techmarine a jump pack and put him with a squad of death co. An empty redeemer and 3 preds (maybe 2 asscan baals and one tri las?) seems like a good fit.

Played the Lost bortherhood with a DC-strike force (+ a CAD) last week and totally ripped apart a Tau suit-list . In the end he started dancing around avoiding my jumping DC's in order to be able to score some much needed points.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
Played the Lost bortherhood with a DC-strike force (+ a CAD) last week and totally ripped apart a Tau suit-list . In the end he started dancing around avoiding my jumping DC's in order to be able to score some much needed points.

Did you end up winning? How much did the 6in move help you?

If you're taking a Veteran Sergeant to exploit the charge bonuses why not take a Power Spear? Then he's Strength 6 on the charge.

 Saber wrote:
If you're taking a Veteran Sergeant to exploit the charge bonuses why not take a Power Spear? Then he's Strength 6 on the charge.

Mainly because I don't have the model. And because sometimes you get charged.

A quick question - taking Terminators from say the Archangels Strike Force and putting them in the Land Raider from the Lucifer formation doesn't turn off the Lucifer Scout/Fast, right ?

Edit - Perhaps not the most competitive, but I'd imagine this will be fun at 1500 and I have the models. The Deathwing player in me would of been very happy with the list anyway back in 5th ed . Fudge knows what to do with the Techmarine though...

Archangels Strike Force
Librarian w/ TDA, SS, Lvl2
1x Furioso Dreadnought w/ Frag, Melta; Lucius Drop Pod
5x TH/SS Terminators
5x Terminators w/ Asscan
5x Terminators w/ Asscan

Lucifer Armoured Task Force
Land Raider Redeemer
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm
Baal Predator w/ Flamestorm
Techmarine

Techmarine rides in lr and fixes it if it gets immobilized.

Why not put him on a bike with some gravbikes. He can still fix a lr and they can support your tank providing much needed grav.

 koooaei wrote:
Why not put him on a bike with some gravbikes. He can still fix a lr and they can support your tank providing much needed grav.

I'm down with having him ride in the LR with 3 servitors. 2+ to repair without a chance to remove the techmarine / servitors sounds good to me.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why not put him on a bike with some gravbikes. He can still fix a lr and they can support your tank providing much needed grav.

I'm down with having him ride in the LR with 3 servitors. 2+ to repair without a chance to remove the techmarine / servitors sounds good to me.

The servo harness is actually quite nasty.

So I've managed to spend some time looking over this and a few thing's have sprung to mind. If you don't play 2k you can pretty much forget most of the book as the buy in's are just too much for the detachments and most of the formations.
The DS and charge stuff isn't that great and will fall by the way side after a short period of time once players get over the shock. If you can accept these 2 thing's then you might have some joy.

One of the good thing's that I quite like is the LBSF. If you like your DC you're in for a treat and I think we'll see more of these than the demi-company's. If you like your armour then the Lucifer Armoured Task Force is going to make your day as well and I believe that a combination of these 2 will make up the best of this book and will make the core of any competitive BA lists if such a thing will ever really exist. It's just so mobile and has some solid armour in it as well. I just can't see past it at the moment.

As for the demi-company's I so want them to be good as it would mean that the 3 tacs squads that i usually take could actually do something but GW said no to that. I think unless you go DC then it's CAD + X auxilluary and Y command at best.

I unfortunately don't play in a group that play's 2k anymore and formation's etc are frowned upon and charge from DS was laughed out the park so most of this is wasted upon me.

From a fluff perspective I love this as there is no mention of Machiavi's 3rd company which is what I'm working on. This give's me 2 campaign's worth of time at least before they return to Baal so swings and round-about's i suppose.

We don't know how the Armageddon war and Shield of Baal overlap. So the 3rd could still be on Armageddon, Hell Tycho might not have died just yet.

The demi-company is actually my preferred gateway to the angel's blade. I was initially very pissed about the overlap in rules, and I'm still not thrilled, but the demi-company does pick up zealot for adding a land speeder. Furthermore, things like assault squads and golden hosts pick up all those rules for being in the angel's blade. Yes, it's not nearly as good as the gladius, but it's not as useless as I originally thought. I just have had to modify my play to use red thirst instead of obj sec.

This means going a bit old school to me. Squads become a bit more like life support systems for vet sergeants swinging power weapons. Yes, there's challenging still, but we're fast enough to pick our battles and the demi-company will have grav cannons in the field to kill the worst offenders. Vet sergeants charging at init 5 S5 AP 3 4 attacks potentially rerolling misses is not bad output on top of the heavy flamer the squad will have.

Lucifer armored task force is also nice. Fast crusaders and redeemers are much closer to justifying the points. Preds with free overcharged engines are quite nice as well.

I'm still thinking of the best way to use the assault from DS formations.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm still thinking of the best way to use the assault from DS formations.

I've played with ds termies 3 times so far and fragioso in beacon pods worked every time. The enemy is forced to either shoot empty pods to avoid scatter-less termies and than sufer the 2-d round from dreads or shoot the dreads and than meet scatter-less termies. Termies have a good threat range. You can get the squad of 5 up to 9.(999)" from the pod without scatter. Easy to cut the opponent off.

Though i used a bunker with comms relay every game and comms relay payed off greatly. Bunker was also neat for sniper+hb scouts to sit in.

Hmm.. Imperial bunker.

The Defense Line would be a much cheaper way to do that.

I used the bunker from wall of martyrs - that's 55 pts for av 14 with 8 shooting points. + 20 for comms relay. It's nice not only to scrore a point and provide reserve re-rolls but also to be a blos to sang guards or bikers.

Though, i've run sang guard 2 times and they didn't do much. First game, all was over before they got to the enemy and the second one they got killed with obli plazma. So, dc actually did more for me than sang guard. Grav bikes were also hit or miss. They did absolutely nothing one game and payed off another one.

Nobody is surprised Death company did more than Sanguine Guard. Sanguine Guard are bad.

So if you're using the one from the wall, how much are you actually paying total?

Grav bikes always do something for me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody is surprised Death company did more than Sanguine Guard. Sanguine Guard are bad.

So if you're using the one from the wall, how much are you actually paying total?

1850.

termie formation, hq, tac marines in a pod, scouts, 3*3 bikes, 2 fragioso in pods, sang guards, bunker with comms. Also tried devs and 2 squads of dc instead of bikes. Both pod marines and fragioso are pretty neat for the points. All 3 pods have beacons cause it's sometimes better to drop 2 dreads or marines. Or sometimes just empty pods.

LBSF and Lucifer Armored Task Force has some great synergy, enough that frontlinegaming put up a sample list for it. Might be on to something there, though I definitely understand what Martel likes about the demi company. Here's a list I've been toying with.

Lost Brotherhood Strike Force

Command
-Death Company Chaplain

Death Company Strike Force
-Death Company Chaplain
Gilded Crozius
Warlord

-10x Death Company
2 power fists
Jump packs

-5x Death Company
Power fist
Jump packs

-5x Death Company
Power fist
Jump packs

-Death Company Dreadnought
Magna grapples
Blood talons
Drop pod

10th Company Ambush Force
-5x Scouts
Shotguns

-5x Scouts
Shotguns

-5x Scouts
Combat blades
Melta bomb

Lucifer Armored Tast Force
-Techmarine
Bp/ccw

-Land Raider Redeemer

-Baal Predator
Assault cannon
Heavy bolter sponsons

-Baal Predator
Assault cannon
Heavy bolter sponsons

-Predator
Autocannon
Lascannon sponsons

1850

The combat scout squad goes with the techmarine in the raider. Honestly I'm loving the 10th company formation. Our scouts are surprisingly useful on the charge, and it's a cheap way to get extra bodies.

I'm interested to see Martel's list.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody is surprised Death company did more than Sanguine Guard. Sanguine Guard are bad.

So if you're using the one from the wall, how much are you actually paying total?

1850.

termie formation, hq, tac marines in a pod, scouts, 3*3 bikes, 2 fragioso in pods, sang guards, bunker with comms. Also tried devs and 2 squads of dc instead of bikes. Both pod marines and fragioso are pretty neat for the points. All 3 pods have beacons cause it's sometimes better to drop 2 dreads or marines. Or sometimes just empty pods.

It might very well have been worth just taking empty pods instead of the Tactical Marines. Scouts are just considerably better, and that's more points to spend on them.

Otherwise, it is fairly easy to get more Fast Attack slots for the Bikers and you just need to add another HQ. Pretty easy to do but I'd need the exact list to make the fix.

I'm yet to regret taking a 5-strong squad of marines with HF and FC in a pod that i need anyway.

The first thing I've tried is to leverage in multiple librarians using Angel's Blade:

Tac squad, 6 guys
Heavy flamer
Vet sarge w/power sword
Rhino w/dozer blade

Tac squad, 6 guys
Heavy flamer
Vet sarge w/power sword
Rhino w/dozer blade

Tac squad, 5 guys
Combi-melta
Meltagun
Drop pod

Dreadnought
heavy flamer
assault cannon
Drop pod

Biker squad, 4 guys
2 X grav gun
Combi-grav

Captain
Bike
Power Fist
Auspex
Artificer armor
Vertias Vitae
Storm Shield

Command squad
3 X melta gun
3 X storm shield
Drop pod

Devastator squad
2 X grav cannon
Combi-plasma
2 X heavy bolter
Cherub thingie
Rhino w/dozer blade

Mephiston w/command squad
Chooses librarius

LV 2 Libby w/ command squad
Force Axe
Auspex
Chooses sanguinius

LV 2 libby w/bikers
Force sword
Bike
Chooses based off opponent

Land speeder
Typhoon launchers

I don't have the list at work, but I think that's it. At 2K, I add a priest to the bikers and some extra stuff. The weakest part to me is the regular dread, but even that is only because of lack of magna grapple. I'm not a huge fan of being forced to drop everything in my opponent's face turn 1/2 and I think this list reflects that. I can drop a flank or dangerous vehicles, but I've got enough mobile shooting to whittle down choppier armies.

Why the power sword and not a claw?

 koooaei wrote:
Why the power sword and not a claw?

Modeling. I'm adding claw sergeants to my list of to-dos.

Probably doesn't have the model. It happens.

I beat necrons with this list; quickened Mephiston is a beast vs them. And Mephiston rolled up null zone, so the Wraiths all died horribly super quickly to him. I had unleash rage as well, which was just extra fun. I don't think zealot every activated for Mephy's squad, either.

Sword vs Claw without to-hits. Left - sword, right - claw
Charge:
t3: 3.333 - 2.917
t4: 2.667 - 2.667
t5: 2 - 2.25
t6: 1.333 - 1.667
t7, t8: 0.667 - 0.917

No charge:
t3: 2 - 1.778
t4: 1.5 - 1.5
t5: 1 - 1.111
t6-7: 0.5 - 0.611

In most cases, the claw is better. I'm not disputing that. The sword has worked well enough so far.

Glad to hear you beat crons with it. That's a pity they on'thave obsec. Should have had it.

I've actually found crons to be a solid matchup for us. We actually bring enough offensive power to crack through their defenses.

 th3maninblak wrote:
I've actually found crons to be a solid matchup for us. We actually bring enough offensive power to crack through their defenses.

It's because they can't shoot us the table like Tau/Eldar/Centstar. If enough BA get to most lists, bad things happen.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
I've actually found crons to be a solid matchup for us. We actually bring enough offensive power to crack through their defenses.

It's because they can't shoot us the table like Tau/Eldar/Centstar. If enough BA get to most lists, bad things happen.

The same logic applies to battle companies. They can't reliably shoot us off the table before we get there, and we have he killing potential to actually crack through their defenses (in the Company casy, massed 3+ save bodies.)

Furthermore I think the LBSF can take on most non invisibility reliant deathstars. 6 attacks at ws/init/str5 with hatred and shred per 23 point model is obscene if you can get it there.

Agreed on the LBSF, but where is the shred coming from?

kryczek wrote:
Agreed on the LBSF, but where is the shred coming from?

Easier to type than "reroll to wound." Death co chaplains give rerolls to hit and wound on the charge now.

Aaah cheer's.

Martel732 wrote:
The first thing I've tried is to leverage in multiple librarians using Angel's Blade:

Spoiler:

Tac squad, 6 guys
Heavy flamer
Vet sarge w/power sword
Rhino w/dozer blade

Tac squad, 6 guys
Heavy flamer
Vet sarge w/power sword
Rhino w/dozer blade

Tac squad, 5 guys
Combi-melta
Meltagun
Drop pod

Dreadnought
heavy flamer
assault cannon
Drop pod

Biker squad, 4 guys
2 X grav gun
Combi-grav

Captain
Bike
Power Fist
Auspex
Artificer armor
Vertias Vitae
Storm Shield

Command squad
3 X melta gun
3 X storm shield
Drop pod

Devastator squad
2 X grav cannon
Combi-plasma
2 X heavy bolter
Cherub thingie
Rhino w/dozer blade

Mephiston w/command squad
Chooses librarius

LV 2 Libby w/ command squad
Force Axe
Auspex
Chooses sanguinius

LV 2 libby w/bikers
Force sword
Bike
Chooses based off opponent

Land speeder
Typhoon launchers

I don't have the list at work, but I think that's it. At 2K, I add a priest to the bikers and some extra stuff. The weakest part to me is the regular dread, but even that is only because of lack of magna grapple. I'm not a huge fan of being forced to drop everything in my opponent's face turn 1/2 and I think this list reflects that. I can drop a flank or dangerous vehicles, but I've got enough mobile shooting to whittle down choppier armies.

It would seem to me you could get something very similar with a double BSF, but with more flexibility in unit choice. Or is Zealot worth pursuing?

No, he would have had to take an extra troop. And tbh, the zealot thing is pretty dope.

Zealot is nasty. Especially because you make all the bullet catchers in each squad die to activate it. The biker captain and libby running around with zealot was brutal. They killed so many necrons. There's lots of lists now if they don't have a good first turn of shooting, they just bought a ticket to rape train because BA have so much speed.

How did you use rhino tacticals? How did they perform?

They did okay. I ran them at warriors as fast as I could so I could barbeque them with heavy flamer goodness. The one squad beat some immortals by three in CC and chased them down. I don't care if the Rhinos die after moving me 24". Plus they got unlucky against one of them for a while.

Well I just bought a predator off of a friend, and I'm about to order my redeemer. Can't wait to see if the LBSF+Lucifer Armored Task Force is as good of a combo as I think.

I've got a LBSF + CAD that's almost all mech.

My problem with rhinos is that's a turn 3 assauld at best. But i guess they were mostly shooty with a nice charge ability as a bonus. A bunch of s5 attacks is neat indeed. Every time i tried out flash gitz they ended up doing more damage in melee rather than with their fancy s5 ap d6 assault 3 gunz.

 koooaei wrote:
My problem with rhinos is that's a turn 3 assauld at best. But i guess they were mostly shooty with a nice charge ability as a bonus. A bunch of s5 attacks is neat indeed. Every time i tried out flash gitz they ended up doing more damage in melee rather than with their fancy s5 ap d6 assault 3 gunz.

I'm not relying on them to be elite assaulters They're still doing most of their damage with the heavy flamer because it doesn't roll to hit and ignores cover.

You guys think there's any potential in using the Orbital Intervention force as a solution against Riptide Wing?

- 3x Riptides can only intercept/overwatch about ~3-4 termies.
- it costs their next shooting phase.
- it denies the opportunity to use Hailfire.
- the Riptides are within 6" to reroll nova, they can be multicharged and taken out of the game for 2-3 times less than their cost.
- DS has the mobility to reach them anywhere.

You need an army with scatter mitigation and reserves tricks, but this seems like a consistently effective countermeasure. Especially against other meta armies (Eldar, Crons) that simply add Riptide Wing as otherwise unsupported allies.

Your best bet is to go CAD + orbital intervention and use Capt Karlaen. Or aegis line w/sniper scouts. I'm not sure how else to get a reroll on the orbital intervention force. Generic captains in a CAD can get three rolls on the strategic trait table too.

Damocles Command Rhino if you use Forge World ? +1 on the reserves roll (not quite as good as a re-roll but not far off), another teleport homer and an orbital bombardment.

Would like to run this at 1500, but having difficulty squeezing in a reserves re-roll from somewhere

Chapter Ancients
Lib Dread w/ Lvl2; Pod w/ Beacon
Dread w/ Asscan; Pod w/ Beacon
Dread w/ Asscan; Pod w/ Beacon

Orbital Intervention Force
5x TH/SS Terminators
5x TH/SS Terminators
5x Terminators w/ Asscan

CAD
Sang Priest
5x Tacticals w/ Pod
5x Tacticals w/ Pod

I could probably loose the Chapter Ancients and squeeze the Dreads into the CAD, dropping the Sang Priest and get a Damocles. I really want to keep the Chapter Ancients though for maximum punchy

I'd like to try the asscan or rokkit termies but "the toad is choking me" when i see them costing the old 40 pts instead of new 35. Also, charge is just such a powerful and more reliable tool vs a lot of things when you have s8 ap2 and charge from the get go. It's just so much more satisfying to squish that cowardly shooter with a hammer.

It all needs playtesting though. Shooty termies can have some merit. For example, you can shoot a hole through bauble wraps before charging in with melee termies. On the other hand, 3 melee squads is there to mitigate crappy charge rolls and ds scatter when pods are dead or out of range. Also, overwatch is a thing and it's good to have a backup squad that's ready to charge in. For example, my last game with termies, 3 died to lazgun overwatch from 10 guardsmen.

Martel732 wrote:
Your best bet is to go CAD + orbital intervention and use Capt Karlaen. Or aegis line w/sniper scouts. I'm not sure how else to get a reroll on the orbital intervention force. Generic captains in a CAD can get three rolls on the strategic trait table too.

Or put them in drop pods.

How does the OIF reserves rules interact with the drop pod assault rules ?

They work just fine, because it just says that they assault the turn they arrive from deep strike. It doesn't say anything about how they are deep striking. It can be pod or teleport.

Not really querying if possible or not - there's nothing in the wording of the rules that seems to prevent it. More of how they interact.

Say for example I have three pods with Dreads, three pods for OIF and a pod for a tac squad.

Do I have to deploy all three OIF pods at the same time ? Do these pods count towards the total for Drop Pod Assault ? What If I only put two of the three OIF squads in Pods ?

OIF units in pods arrive when the pods arrive. The remaining units in deep strike follow the OIF rules. If you pod one unit, the remaining two remain linked.

The pods all function normally, so they count for the total I'd say.

I really like the chapter ancients formation.

Assault cannon HF dread just got a huge buff. So did Fragiosos. In this formation they have now become premium suicide units almost always going to get their points back. Plus if you take enough of them in pods it's a given that a few will make it to assualt with 5 str 10 attacks on the charge.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really like the chapter ancients formation.

Assault cannon HF dread just got a huge buff. So did Fragiosos. In this formation they have now become premium suicide units almost always going to get their points back. Plus if you take enough of them in pods it's a given that a few will make it to assualt with 5 str 10 attacks on the charge.

Do we think that the Fragioso's can drop in, pop the special rule allowing them to shoot twice, and profit? I read it that they get to shoot in the movement phase INSTEAD of moving. It doesn't seem to me that they get to use the double shoot ability after deep strike.

Let me know if I'm wrong.

I think the disembarkation probably counts as a move. That's what I'd say.

Played a game on wednesday vs necron decurion. Basic killpoints with a pretty standard list at 1500. 3 warrior squads in ghost arks, some immortals, lychguard with an overlord and cryptec, bikes, and the canoptek harvest.

I was playing a pretty suboptimal list since I hadn't finished my Orbital Intervention Force yet. LBSF with 20 death co (1x10 and 2x5) with a smattering of power fists and swords, death co chaplain with gilded crozius, astorath, death co dread in pod and 2x10 assault marines with 2 meltas and a power sword each, combat squadded.

What followed was a blood bath. Even the canoptek harvest couldnt fight me. Melta guns popped his transport, death co carved through his warriors and immortals even with 4+ reanimation protocols rerolling 1s. He went first after deploying on the 12in line and moved up into rapid fire range, but didnt manage to kill nearly enough. That left me with less than 6in charges across the board. He tried to use the shroud to move his lychguard onto my flank to go after my assault marines and avoid my death co, but I just left him in the dust.

Once you reach critical face-punching, the Necrons crumble.

 Voidwraith wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I really like the chapter ancients formation.

Assault cannon HF dread just got a huge buff. So did Fragiosos. In this formation they have now become premium suicide units almost always going to get their points back. Plus if you take enough of them in pods it's a given that a few will make it to assualt with 5 str 10 attacks on the charge.

Do we think that the Fragioso's can drop in, pop the special rule allowing them to shoot twice, and profit? I read it that they get to shoot in the movement phase INSTEAD of moving. It doesn't seem to me that they get to use the double shoot ability after deep strike.

Let me know if I'm wrong.

Games Workshop's blog talks about doing just this... it's the blog though so make of it what you will

"The options are almost limitless, and all are very powerful – you can have all three arrive on turn one (in Drop Pods, naturally) and then have them all shoot twice. Now imagine all three came with Frag Cannons. That’s a total of twelve, Strength 6, Templates with Rending. Now that should make a horrible mess of just about anything. Not to mention each Dreadnought can have a Heavy Flamer that also gets to fire twice, slung under a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, ready to deal with whatever poor, broken survivors are left after the barrage. Or you could have 6 multi-melta shots at close range, with 6 melta gun shots as well – you get the idea.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Webstore-Blog/2016/10/19/Angel-s-Blade-My-Favourite-Formations

Huh. How is the mandatory disembarkation NOT movement? I was thinking the true brutality was going to be extra assault phases.

Martel732 wrote:
Once you reach critical face-punching, the Necrons crumble.

Lol. Critical face punching.

And 40+ str5 attacks rerolling to hit AND wound can even take down 10 immortals with buffed up RP.

I feel like a lot of armies crumble to that though.

Edit: also I suppose that the right way of playing our dread formation is the way the people who created it are playing it.

Martel732 wrote:
Huh. How is the mandatory disembarkation NOT movement? I was thinking the true brutality was going to be extra assault phases.

Technically. When QW uses the phrase "instead of" it does not imply the "instead of" action be allowed in the first place. The Skathach Wraithknight shunt generator proves this. Otherwise the Skathach Wraithknight would not be able to move out of close combat because it is not able to move in the movement phase due to being in assault. Familiarize yourself with the interpretation and you will see there is no way without a FAQ that anyone can disallow this strategy.

Did you make a movement in the movement phase? - No you made a mandatory disembark at the start of your turn. Now...Roast some people with double fire dreadnoughts and make up for the BA being UP all these years. Listen to them cry about how theres not counter and stuff. Drink their blood. Sounds fun.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Huh. How is the mandatory disembarkation NOT movement? I was thinking the true brutality was going to be extra assault phases.

Technically. When QW uses the phrase "instead of" it does not imply the "instead of" action be allowed in the first place. The Skathach Wraithknight shunt generator proves this. Otherwise the Skathach Wraithknight would not be able to move out of close combat because it is not able to move in the movement phase due to being in assault. Familiarize yourself with the interpretation and you will see there is no way without a FAQ that anyone can disallow this strategy.

Did you make a movement in the movement phase? - No you made a mandatory disembark at the start of your turn. Now...Roast some people with double fire dreadnoughts and make up for the BA being UP all these years. Listen to them cry about how theres not counter and stuff. Drink their blood. Sounds fun.

I like the way you think.

Just going back a little:

 koooaei wrote:
It all needs playtesting though. Shooty termies can have some merit. For example, you can shoot a hole through bauble wraps before charging in with melee termies. On the other hand, 3 melee squads is there to mitigate crappy charge rolls and ds scatter when pods are dead or out of range.

There's some cool toys available to the tac termies. Against a 9HP walker (think Brass Scorpion or Stompa), you can attempt to tarpit with charge termies, then run in next player turn with about 9-12 chainfist attacks at S9. There's also a 5pt relic sword exclusive to the Termie Sgt that gives Instant Death on 6's. I think that's their best utility -- follow up anything too durable for the TH/SS teams.

You're basically paying 30pts over SM chainfist termies to access the ID Sword. So, I'd say make sure you've got a good reason to take it. Get some more traction through attack buffs, melee rerolls, etc.

I'm not terribly excited by their shooting options, though at least you get some extra firepower on the drop.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Huh. How is the mandatory disembarkation NOT movement? I was thinking the true brutality was going to be extra assault phases.

Technically. When QW uses the phrase "instead of" it does not imply the "instead of" action be allowed in the first place. The Skathach Wraithknight shunt generator proves this. Otherwise the Skathach Wraithknight would not be able to move out of close combat because it is not able to move in the movement phase due to being in assault. Familiarize yourself with the interpretation and you will see there is no way without a FAQ that anyone can disallow this strategy.

Did you make a movement in the movement phase? - No you made a mandatory disembark at the start of your turn. Now...Roast some people with double fire dreadnoughts and make up for the BA being UP all these years. Listen to them cry about how theres not counter and stuff. Drink their blood. Sounds fun.

I don't think that comparison is apples to apples. I don't know anything about the Skathach Wraithknight, but if it can make a special move instead of moving during the movement phase, it still didn't move prior to jumping out of assault.

Wow...I said "move" too many times in that sentence.

Either way, if I have to litigate what "instead of moving" means with the intended outcome being my Dreadnought gets to actually MOVE before using the ability it gets to do if it didn't move, my friends would look at me like I was stealing from them. It is interesting that GWs blog seems to indicate it is indeed possible to arrive via Drop Pod and use the Well-Times Strike special ability right away...but GW has never been good at reading (and following) their own rules.

I sent them an email, the response to which, if they should give one, I'll use for myself and not shove down everyone's throat.

Martel732 wrote:
Huh. How is the mandatory disembarkation NOT movement? I was thinking the true brutality was going to be extra assault phases.

Yeah, my thinking as well. Punch your way out of one assault in your movement phase, go and assault someone else in the assault phase.

Re the movement phase and Well Timed Blow. The wording is just a mess, and contradicts itself. It's even worse for the extra assault phase.
To perform the extra pile in and attacks, I presume you must be locked in combat from the previous player turn ? Rules for locked in combat state that "“Units that are locked in combat cannot move in the Movement phase”. If you can't move in the movement phase, you can never give up your movement to do the pile in move and extra attacks ?

Also from the pile in move/additional attacks from Well Timed Blow - if you've inflicted unsaved wounds during the movement phase, does your opponent have to take a morale check ?

 Voidwraith wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Huh. How is the mandatory disembarkation NOT movement? I was thinking the true brutality was going to be extra assault phases.

Technically. When QW uses the phrase "instead of" it does not imply the "instead of" action be allowed in the first place. The Skathach Wraithknight shunt generator proves this. Otherwise the Skathach Wraithknight would not be able to move out of close combat because it is not able to move in the movement phase due to being in assault. Familiarize yourself with the interpretation and you will see there is no way without a FAQ that anyone can disallow this strategy.

Did you make a movement in the movement phase? - No you made a mandatory disembark at the start of your turn. Now...Roast some people with double fire dreadnoughts and make up for the BA being UP all these years. Listen to them cry about how theres not counter and stuff. Drink their blood. Sounds fun.

I don't think that comparison is apples to apples. I don't know anything about the Skathach Wraithknight, but if it can make a special move instead of moving during the movement phase, it still didn't move prior to jumping out of assault.

Wow...I said "move" too many times in that sentence.

Either way, if I have to litigate what "instead of moving" means with the intended outcome being my Dreadnought gets to actually MOVE before using the ability it gets to do if it didn't move, my friends would look at me like I was stealing from them. It is interesting that GWs blog seems to indicate it is indeed possible to arrive via Drop Pod and use the Well-Times Strike special ability right away...but GW has never been good at reading (and following) their own rules.

I sent them an email, the response to which, if they should give one, I'll use for myself and not shove down everyone's throat.

Please let us know what they say in response...I really hope they allow it this way. It would really make dreadnoughts playable.

Played a game yesterday using a LBSF (one big DC squad, two small, smattering of powerfists) paired with a Lucifer force (Redeemer, two Las pred, one baal pred).
Told a mate I wanted a competitive game to try out a new list so he brought a lions blade strike force with a couple of black Knight squads.
After lining up the armies we both knew how the game was going to go, the numerical suppperioriry he had was huge and after he got first turn if was all over :(
As always the land raider died to a melta gun exploding it :/ the Las preds spent two turns failing to blow up a rhino. The big DC squad wiped up his bike squad full of characters but by the time they were finished the rest of the arm was toast and I conceded.

Conclusions: even with fast and scout the vehicles are still just crap, there's no getting round the fact that the basic rules for them hamper both there damage output and survivability.
The dc aren't bad but multocharging really puts a crimp in their output and the LBSF doesnt leave many points for mission scoring.

Personally I think LBSF and a LSF are too schizo to go well together.

My lists have a LSF teamed up with a CAD so almost everything is meched up. And I've got six obj sec units. And a whirlwind squadron. All in all, it's good old fashioned AV 13 spam with a squadron of auto/las preds and a flamer Baal and a dakka Baal. The crusader (which is much harder for the DA to melta w/o a drop pod) has the techmarine, assault terminators and a vertias vitae priest fishing for the move through cover (ruins) ability. All my tanks have dozer blades so they can grab 5+++ cover as much as possible. The pred squadron is murder vs other vehicles and even WKs. The whirlwind squadron is unbelievably dangerous to a variety of targets. And cheap.

My LBSF is teamed up with a knight warden. I actually use the other auxillaries like MM attack bikes. My DC are all MSU. I don't get greedy with the bonuses. I also use Astorath and give the DC chaplain the 2+ armor so they can tank crap like scatterlasers. I use the DC dread like a mini-furioso by giving it dual heavy flamer in a pod. The Knight Warden can make two DA squads jink per turn and massacre every black knight on the table. The MM attack bikes can make another squad jink. Oh, that list has a bunch of assault scouts too to get the body count up. Assault the squads you forced to jink with the assault scouts.

In each case, I have fast shooting in the list.

So you like Angel's Blade then? How would you rate it over all?

Overall, mediocre because no obj sec and poor assault from ds formations.

Just try them out before calling them poor

I wouldn't bring a big vehicle like a Land Raider or Knight without Invisibility, everyone loves Grav/D/Melta.

It's really too bad BA didn't get a good psychic formation!

 koooaei wrote:
Just try them out before calling them poor

The Terminator one has potential but there's no denying that Sanguine Guard are duds even with that bonus.

So my shop does end of the month "anything goes" tournaments at the end of every month (lists usually contain multiple wraithknights/stormsurges/imperial knights) but it's at 1750 and not 1850. I can't find a LBSF+orbital intervention force at that point value I like, so I'm trying something crazy.

After digging through the core rulebook for some clarifications, I found that our stormraven formation can use it's "FIRE ALL ZE MISSILES" rule the turn it comes on, so I'm gonna give it a try at the next tournament.

Edit: I can definitely believe that the LBSF and lucifer formation don't mesh well. It also sounded like you had some seriously crappy rolling, lol.

The Angel's Blade book gave us a pretty solid boost into middle tier, imo. We're still not great, but we definitely aren't bottom of the barrel anymore. And any formation where power weapons can assault from deep strike is good.

 koooaei wrote:
Just try them out before calling them poor

SG are awful no matter what rules you give them. TH/SS termies are considerably better.

Sanguine Guard require too much babysitting.

That's just it. I refuse to babysit them.

The golden host has its merits though. Coming with built in deep strike accuracy and choosing what turn you come on is solid. But the orbital force is just flat out better.

Also if you're hurting for more units on the table with the LBSF, I strongly suggest the 10th company ambush force. It's cheap, has some neat special rules, and can actually hurt things with str5 init5 on the charge.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
So you like Angel's Blade then? How would you rate it over all?

There may turn out to be some hidden nuggets in there - Chapter Ancients and Orbital Inervention Force, but on the whole it's pretty poor. It doesn't fix some of the long standing issues with the BA codex

 th3maninblak wrote:
The golden host has its merits though.

The formation bonuses are just fine, I'd think the real issue is "why Sang Guard". The only advantages I can think of are Fear tests and Sweeping Advance. Maybe you could get some traction versus the right unit, or with LD warfare. I'm having a difficult time thinking of applicable situations.

Otherwise you can just hit everything with Lightning Claws and Thunder Hammers, with a 3++ on top, right?

Yoyoyo wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
The golden host has its merits though.

The formation bonuses are just fine, I'd think the real issue is "why Sang Guard". The only advantages I can think of are Fear tests and Sweeping Advance. Maybe you could get some traction versus the right unit, or with LD warfare. I'm having a difficult time thinking of applicable situations.

Otherwise you can just hit everything with Lightning Claws and Thunder Hammers, with a 3++ on top, right?

The bonuses, which have a hard time eclipsing the 3++, are that they're cheaper, move 12", and have master crafted weapons. You already eluded to them being fearless, but that's nice too. The 12" move may be the most important difference, but like I said, most will just take the 3++ and hope that normal 6" movement will be enough.

I also like Dante, so the Golden Host is something I be playing around with.

You can get Dante in a CAD though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get Dante in a CAD though.

Sure, but only in a way that feels like a waste, cause he's a Lord of War, while everyone else gets a Super Heavy Walker as a LoW. With the Golden Host, you could actually roll with Dante and an Imperial Knight (not that my current list I'm building towards has an IK, but it should).

 Voidwraith wrote:
The bonuses, which have a hard time eclipsing the 3++, are that they're cheaper, move 12", and have master crafted weapons. You already eluded to them being fearless, but that's nice too. The 12" move may be the most important difference, but like I said, most will just take the 3++ and hope that normal 6" movement will be enough.

I think "cheap" is probably the best attribute. And I don't mean that in a bad way -- you can grab Death Masks and then unleash them on squishy shooting-oriented targets like bike units, marines, troop choices, whatever. If you're hunting MSU you don't want anything too pricey.

Aside from Dante, Sanguinor being able to jump straight into assault helps a lot. You could leverage that 12" Fearless aura like Synapse, to instantly recover units that go to ground. Then everything runs into combat with +2A and +1S, where it sticks due to Fearless.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Huh. How is the mandatory disembarkation NOT movement? I was thinking the true brutality was going to be extra assault phases.

Technically. When QW uses the phrase "instead of" it does not imply the "instead of" action be allowed in the first place. The Skathach Wraithknight shunt generator proves this. Otherwise the Skathach Wraithknight would not be able to move out of close combat because it is not able to move in the movement phase due to being in assault. Familiarize yourself with the interpretation and you will see there is no way without a FAQ that anyone can disallow this strategy.

Did you make a movement in the movement phase? - No you made a mandatory disembark at the start of your turn. Now...Roast some people with double fire dreadnoughts and make up for the BA being UP all these years. Listen to them cry about how theres not counter and stuff. Drink their blood. Sounds fun.

I don't think that comparison is apples to apples. I don't know anything about the Skathach Wraithknight, but if it can make a special move instead of moving during the movement phase, it still didn't move prior to jumping out of assault.

Wow...I said "move" too many times in that sentence.

Either way, if I have to litigate what "instead of moving" means with the intended outcome being my Dreadnought gets to actually MOVE before using the ability it gets to do if it didn't move, my friends would look at me like I was stealing from them. It is interesting that GWs blog seems to indicate it is indeed possible to arrive via Drop Pod and use the Well-Times Strike special ability right away...but GW has never been good at reading (and following) their own rules.

I sent them an email, the response to which, if they should give one, I'll use for myself and not shove down everyone's throat.

Please let us know what they say in response...I really hope they allow it this way. It would really make dreadnoughts playable.

Just wanted to jump in with my experience on this, I was at a tournament earlier this year where a guy ran the Firespear Strike Force (the one from the Start Collecting Space Marines box) in a drop pod, and it was ruled that he could have everything arrive via pods, and still do the Sustained Fire (At the start of the Movement phase, pick one unit in the Firespear Strike Force that is within in 12″ of its Captain. The unit that you picked can immediately shoot as though it where the Shooting phase, but cannot then move (or charge) for the rest of the turn. This unit can shoot again in the Shooting phase (but cannot run)) even though they had disembarked that turn.

And given the similar wording it might allow it to work, at least in my area

Martel732 wrote:
I use the DC dread like a mini-furioso by giving it dual heavy flamer in a pod.

I saw this and really like the idea but I thought you could only replace the storm bolter or the meltagun and not both for heavy flamers (as it does say choose one of the following if I remember right)?
Unless you meant something other than having a heavy flamer per arm?

Fauxhound wrote:
arrive via pods, and still do the Sustained Fire

That's horribly wrong.

I'm finding OIF (also GH) needing to taken with LBSF or Angel's blade detachment. Otherwise you lose the initiative bonus wich can really make the difference. Am I the only one struggling with this matter?

Agree on the LSF and LBSF combination at 1850p range, not enough scoring units. Is there really a aux formation that you can use with the CAD that isn't better with obj sec from CAD itself. LBSF is the only one, but it's quite assault oriented so you need to grab AV/AA from elsewhere.

MadMunky wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I use the DC dread like a mini-furioso by giving it dual heavy flamer in a pod.

I saw this and really like the idea but I thought you could only replace the storm bolter or the meltagun and not both for heavy flamers (as it does say choose one of the following if I remember right)?
Unless you meant something other than having a heavy flamer per arm?

I'll look again, but I'm pretty sure you can.

You can't run the dual heavy flamers on the Death Company Dread sadly.

It says: "May choose one of the following:
-Replace storm bolter with a heavy flamer...XX pts
-Replace meltagun with a heavy flamer... XX pts"

So you can run the 'stock' configuration of Storm Bolter and Meltagun, or replace one or the other with a Heavy Flamer for XX points.

Would be nice if they could run paired heavy flamers. Sadly it doesn't appear to be allowed.

My preferred load out is almost always the Meltagun and Heavy Flamer on a dual CCW dread (Death Company or otherwise) though obviously if I'm running a Furioso Dread it's the Frag Cannon and Heavy Flamer for maximum template fun.

I personally prefer running a DC dread as Cassor the Damned myself, though it does limit the options to the Blood Talons + default arm weapon load out (Storm Bolter + Meltagun) & Magna Grapple, burning up a troops slot for the dread instead of one of the hotly contested elite slots is worth it.

I'm going to be experimenting with a few of the formations and data sheets from Angel's Blade at some point soon. Still have a lot of painting left to do however.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Funny. My elite slots are never contested.

And yes that sucks for the dc dread because a lone meltagun sucks.

Martel732 wrote:
Funny. My elite slots are never contested.

And yes that sucks for the dc dread because a lone meltagun sucks.

Just because you don't use multiple elites, doesn't mean others don't. I run honor guard, death company (multiple squads), Furioso Dreads, and Lemartes on occasion.

You're atypical, and that's just the truth of it. In a vacuum one lone meltagun does suck, but it's an extra high strength shot that comes standard and I'd personally much rather have the meltagun over a storm bolter for general use. Your mileage may vary.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'd rather have a dead cow over a storm bolter.

I just happen to think that BA elites are not actually that much of a strength. I'm constantly running out of FA, though. Most BA elites are a fast way to lose a lot of points.

It's not going to come up that much anymore I think, because a lot of lists will be CAD + formation or all formations.

At any rate, I don't like the price tag on Cassor and I wouldn't recommend anyone actually use Cassor. I'd rather have a tac squad. There I said it.

You're entitled to your opinion of course.

I like Cassor. He's just 140 points and with the recent boost to dreads due to the FAQ + Erratas he's a good extra troops choice in my opinion.

A 5 man Tactical Squad with a heavy flamer, and a combi weapon on the sergeant coupled with a rhino is 135 points. Drop pod instead of a rhino is 125 points instead. A 5 to 15 point difference does not a large difference make. If you don't like him, that's fine, but he's got uses.

Each has their own uses and they don't preclude one another. I've had good success using death company dreads (and Cassor) in the past. As I said, your mileage may vary.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm a fan of blood talons, more because I tend to roll an insane amount of 1s than anything else. And I seem to come up short 10 points in a lot of lists.

The Stormraven formation keeps getting better and better the more I read into it. Coming in on a 2+ in most cases (not many people run flyers anymore that aren't FMCs), being able to fire all your missiles at a target as long as it's within LoS (not firing arc), and the attack wings are all great. 2 ravens coming in on the basic attack wing gives you 4 of your 8 missiles at bs5, and your lead aircraft gets a +1 to jink. Seems pretty ok.

Fragioso are elites. They're awesome. For dread standards.

Xirax wrote:I'm finding OIF (also GH) needing to taken with LBSF or Angel's blade detachment. Otherwise you lose the initiative bonus wich can really make the difference. Am I the only one struggling with this matter?

I wouldn't feel the need for the initiative bonus for the OIF or GH. You're only going to get it when you charge, and you're not going to get the bonus on the turn you drop as disordered charge. Also the OIF is mostly going to be Hammers or Fists where an initiative bonus doesn't matter.

After fiddling around in Battlescribe for a while, have a list that i'm happy enough with at 1500. Perhaps not the best for Maelstrom missions though..

Chapter Ancients
Furioso Dread w/ Frag, Melta; Drop Pod w/ Beacon
Furioso Dread w/ Frag, Melta; Drop Pod w/ Beacon
Lib Dread w/ Lv2; Drop Pod w/ Beacon

Orbital Intervention Force
5x TH/SS Terminators
5x TH/SS Terminators
5x Terminators w/ Asscan

Flesh Tearers Strike Force
Corbulo
5x Tacticals w/Flamer; Drop Pod
Drop Pod.

I'd honestly just drop the regular Terminator squad and add another Assault one.

Indeed. And a 2nd Libby Dread. That should take you to 1850 ish. That list seems kinda awesome.

The quickening on dreads is pretty rude.

@1.5k that's pretty nasty.

Always seem's to end up CAD + x formation doesn't it? I just don't see many of these formation's or detachment's lasting long before folk figure them out. These 2 will probably have the longest innings though.

Nah, I have a couple angel's blade lists build around the demi-company. I rather like the one with three psykers.

I dunno, I've been facerolling people even with sub optimal LBSF lists. All 4 games I've gotten to play with it thus far haven't just been wins, they've been brutal curb stompings. So far I've played vs Skitarii, Chaos, and 2 necron armies.

None of those lists can stop the LBSF list at range, except maybe the Skitarii. LBSF is a death sentence for most Necrons.

Any list that can gun down FNP meqs, though, is going to slaughter it straight up.

LBSF would be much better if Stormravens weren't such crap.

I'm sure if Jancoran had been running the Chaos, you'd have lost 20-0

Lol it's possible. But the chaos list was one of the better I've seen in a long time. Mono nurge for the most part, with 4 or 5 rhinos filled with plague marines. Rounding it out were 2 maulerfiends, Belakor and a forgeworld nurgle knight. Btw, those are a huge pain to take down when they're invisible.

Yeah, invis is a game changer. Although I think even nurgle marines crumble before LBST. Too many rerolls. That's one reason I like my angel's blade list with Mephy rocking librarius. I might be able to scourge away the invis!

Martel wrote:The quickening on dreads is pretty rude.

Especially in combo with Well Timed Blow from chapter ancients - if you survive to your second turn of assault it's 10-14 S10 AP2 (+/- Force) attacks at I5-7.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I'd honestly just drop the regular Terminator squad and add another Assault one.

Maelstrom innit. I don't want to throw everything in my opponents deployment zone when it's a slow list.

But it isn't like the regular Terminators will contribute anything meaningful even with an extra shooting phase. If you want that sorta thing, Stern guard still exist.

Tactical Terminators are more useful then TH/SS when dropped away from your opponents lines. Sternguard, or even more Tacticals, would be better, but then I don't have the points at 1500 to do that.

Does anyone know if the Chapter Ancients and Orbital Intervention Force boxes are limited, or are a regular part of the BA line now ?
After discounts from retailers, it makes things stupidly cheap - £16 per Furioso vs £28 full retail for example.

Ok, so I think we have enough experience and math/theory crafting here to start putting together a tentative list of good and bad matchups for the various Angel's Blade lists. All of our lists have around the same general strengths and weaknesses: very strong combat potential on the charge, fast units, the ability to assault from deep strike (and deep strike accurately), but lacking in OBSEC or true hardcore MSU. Oh, and a vulnerability to high strength low AP shooting. So here it goes.

Strong matchups- Armies that are usually defensive in nature or lean heavily on durability over firepower. Also armies that lack the ability to take us out at long range.

-Necrons- this is the big one. We wipe the floor with crons, which happen to be one of the top armies in the game.
-Orks
-Chaos Space Marines
-Space Wolves
-Vanilla marine demi or battle companies
-Khorne Daemonkin- we are almost as fast as them, and generally hit harder. D-thirsters are a problem, but one that depends on who gets the charge.
-Dark Eldar
-Imperial Knights- Between str9 power fists that reroll to hit and the critical mass of melta we can field, knights have never been a problem

Weak matchups- Generally speaking, invisible deathstars or fast moving armies with strong shooting. Forces with high amounts of long range anti MEQ also fall into this category, and interceptor/increased overwatch is the final nail in the coffin.

-Eldar- duh.
-Dark Angels- stubborn and bs2 or full bs overwatch sucks. Any flavor of DA but deathwing is a nightmare to fight.
-Tau- literally has all the things we hate to fight
-Chaos Daemons
-Invisibility based deathstars. Centurion Star is a prime example
-Tyranids- you really only ever see flyrant spam, and that's really tough for us to fight.

Outliers (the jury is out)
-Grey Knights- army wide force weapons are a pain, but they still die like regular marines. They have strong shooting, but are hampered by a low model count.
-Astra Militarium- I feel like they have the tools to beat us, but you don't see said tools very often.

GK shooting is not good vs BA in general. This match up is very detail dependent.

My Demi-company Angel's blade list has grav bikers led by an artificer biker captain and a libby or priest for support. It has also grav devs in a rhino. GK are in deep crap.

My LBSF list plays right into their hands, but GK are actually one of the cases where init 5 is really useful. Really, really useful. But DKs are much more problematic here.

My LATF list doesn't have a lot of great targets, but is weak vs CC lists. On the other hand, it is very fast, and GK don't like that at all.

IG are like ghetto Tau. The real failing is lack of interceptor makes furioso and melta team alpha strikes are a thing against them. They have CC tarpit options, although vs LBST, none of those are likely to work.

Valid points. Do you agree with the rest?

In general. I'm not too sure about non-invis SW. It's really hard to kill TWC. It might be hard for some lists to shoot the Wulfen to death.

Non-invis SW is a myth.

 koooaei wrote:
Non-invis SW is a myth.

Eh, not really. Lion and the Wolf and giant fenrisian wolf packs tend to not rely on invisibility.

Martel732 wrote:GK shooting is not good vs BA in general. This match up is very detail dependent.

My Demi-company Angel's blade list has grav bikers led by an artificer biker captain and a libby or priest for support. It has also grav devs in a rhino. GK are in deep crap.

My LBSF list plays right into their hands, but [/b]GK are actually one of the cases where init 5 is really useful. [/b]Really, really useful. But DKs are much more problematic here.

My LATF list doesn't have a lot of great targets, but is weak vs CC lists. On the other hand, it is very fast, and GK don't like that at all.

IG are like ghetto Tau. The real failing is lack of interceptor makes furioso and melta team alpha strikes are a thing against them. They have CC tarpit options, although vs LBST, none of those are likely to work.

I play GK a fair bit as well and their shooting generally isn't worth much. The scary thing with GK is AP3 swords with Force up to ignore FNP. As Martel says, I5 matters as both going at I4 generally means you're going to wipe each other out.

In general. I'm not too sure about non-invis SW. It's really hard to kill TWC. It might be hard for some lists to shoot the Wulfen to death

I find TWC even in their most basic form tough for BA. BA almost certainly need the charge if assaulting, and the formations that give disordered charge from Deep Strike just don't cut it.

I t hink the assault from deep strike formations are suicide vs sw and demons.

I'll be interested to try out Furiosos/Lib Dreads from Chapter Ancients vs TWC.

If they can survive the S10 Hammers/Fists from the turn the TWC charge ('cos lets face it, Furiosos aren't ever going to get the charge on them) they should be able to wreck face in the BA players turn when popping the formation bonus.

It depends on how much bling the TWC have. If they are powerfist/storm shield pimped out, the dreads are toast.

Can you guys provide some examples of your LBSF and LATF lists? I just got wrecked by some crons with the LBSF and LATF together but that's because I whiffed everything first turn and fed him my army basically...

Also why are TWC S10 on the charge? They are really S5 normally? seems pretty ridiculous...

I'm pretty new and haven't faced SW yet. I'm dreading it, but crons are my typical opponent. I generally do pretty well against them besides the wraiths...

First off, TWC are S5 and so with a powerfist are S10 all the time, not just on the charge.

My LBSF, as yet untested:

LBSF

5 DC jump packs, Powerfist
5 DC jump packs, Powerfist
5 DC jump packs, Powerfist
Astorath
DC Chaplain w/2+ relic armor
DC dread, heavy flamer, drop pod
5 scouts, meltabomb
5 scouts, meltabomb
5 scouts, meltabomb
MM attack bike
MM attack bike
MM attack bike
5 man ASM, melta X 2, power sword, vet sarge

Knight detachment:

Knight Warden w/stormspear rocket pod

LATF:

Techmarine, servoharness
Crusader, MM, heavy armor
Auto/las predator X3 in squadron
Baal pred /w heavy bolters and flamestorm
Baal pred w/ heavy bolters and TL AC

CAD:
Priest with veritas vitae and power sword
Tac squad, Rhino, heavy flamer, dozer blade
Tac squad, Rhino, heavy flamer, dozer blade
Tac squad, Razorback, dozer blade, las/plas razor, plasma gun and combi-plas
Whirlwind squadron X 3
Bikers X 3 w/ 2 grav guns
Assault terminators 4X TH/SS lightning claw sergeant

Thank you! Seems pretty legit to me.

Edit: wasn't doubting your knowledge of TWC btw, just was surprised to learn they are S5

Played a game with my LBSF+Stormraven squadron with 10th company support. Pretty much ham fisted my way through the game. Forgot to infiltrate my scouts, made some sub par plays, but still won vs Minotaurs space marines. Their PE marines is nasty with Asterion Moloc. Granted, his list wasn't optimal, but considering how badly I played and how much I won by I'd say it's telling.

How do you run your LBSF, MIB? Typical 1 PF per 5 guys?

This might be (definitely) weird, but I've been lurking here ever since the BA Dex dropped pretty much. As a new player trying to get into the generally intimidating/competetive group at my FLGS, you guys have been very informative and helpful. MIB and Martel, you guys have been especially helpful with your posts overall, but all you BA guys have also been informative as well!

Just wanted to say thanks and have fun dealing with my stupid noob posts now!

I really like my LBSF list and I want to try it soon. The knight warden gives the opponent something else to worry about getting to their lines, and can take a lot of things that make DC cry. The scouts should incredibly useful bullet catchers as well. Hopefully, the DC dread gets lost in the mix. The DC dread is better than I thought because it can get magnagrapples. I think this is a better approach than trying to combine with LATF, not trying to be critical of those lists.

CountryMac wrote:
How do you run your LBSF, MIB? Typical 1 PF per 5 guys?

This might be (definitely) weird, but I've been lurking here ever since the BA Dex dropped pretty much. As a new player trying to get into the generally intimidating/competetive group at my FLGS, you guys have been very informative and helpful. MIB and Martel, you guys have been especially helpful with your posts overall, but all you BA guys have also been informative as well!

Just wanted to say thanks and have fun dealing with my stupid noob posts now!

Welcome to the Angels of Death, brother! Answering questions from new players is almost never stupid or annoying, so don't worry about that.

To answer your first question, 1 fist per 5 marines is the way to go with Death Company. If I need to shave points in a 10 man squad, I usually drop one of the 2 fists for a sword.

Right now the 3 core formations in the Angel's Blade/Lost Brotherhood strike forces for BA are all viable in their own way, but serve different purposes. Here they are with brief explainations.

Battle Demi-company- lackluster on its own (understatement), but it's the cheapest way to unlock our other formations in the detachment. Also lends itself well to fast moving mech lists with well balanced shooting and assault. Martel favors this for its low core tax and versatility.

Archangels Demi-company- gets a bucket of rules from formations and its mother detachment. The core tax for this formation is very high, which severely limits your options for command/aux formations. That being said, the core of this detachment is a very powerful and very elite force that can pull off full reserve perfectly and has both strong shooting and assault. All of us have experimented with this, but none of us have "cracked the code" so to speak.

Lost Brotherhood Strike Force (LBSF)- a one trick pony, but a very good one. Very fast, very hard hitting on the charge, and capable of turn 1 assaults. It also almost guarantees turn 2 assaults. Your command choices are basically nonexistant, and your aux choices are somewhat limited, but the tools are still there to make one of the stronger assault lists in the game. I favor this due to its speed and combat potential (and because I love death co)

I also like the LBSF a lot, I just don't like it with the LATF. It is way more aggressive than the demi company, and this can pay off. But it can also backfire.

The demi company happens to feature a lot of units I already like: captain, command squad, bikers, grav-capable devs. Tac squads can act like delivery systems for vet sergeants with zealot and furious charge in addition to packing a heavy flamer.

Not having obj sec at all sucks, so we'll have be very careful with what we target both with shooting and with assaulting.

Actually the one time I used it, having Astorath and a DC chaplain with 2+ armor to soak incidental fire worked pretty well. You can LoS S8+ as needed. My DC chappy also rolled up FNP which was cool. But the real engine behind my list is the knight. It's a very good distraction carnifex that contributes every turn.

True, it can definitely backfire. I'm sure I'll have that option eventually. It just hasnt happened yet.

10th company also works well with the LBSF, since it gives you extra bodies that can score, eat overwatch, and contribute to combat with str5 init5 attacks.

Gonna be really funny if this random thread on Dakka gets the full potential of this book figured out before the "pros" do.

I doubt there are any BA pros left.

Martel732 wrote:
I doubt there are any BA pros left.

Not specifically BA pros. Just the blogger/tournament goers.

Honestly, I'm not sure they'll spend that much time thinking about it. Only if it can augment their White Scar grav cent list lol.

Thanks for the breakdown guys. I like your lists a lot Martel, however I don't have the models nor do I want to straight up steal lists. You're giving me some pretty good ideas though!

I just hate the current scout models, so I don't want to buy more. It seems like the 10th fits into a lot of lists pretty nicely though...

I don't think you were being too critical btw. I mainly used them together because I thought it was cool, not necessarily because it was a good combo.

I want to make an Archangels/GH list with Dante. I plan on having a bunch of gunslinging VVs coming down turn 1 with a CQC Sgt. To take advantage of the zealot after most die immediately. It probably isn't a great idea, but should be fun of hilarious at least... I already have a bunch of VVs from working towards the free PW formation I can't remember the name of...

Archangel sanguine wing.

Angles Blade minor annoyance #536 - the Rapid Assault Force.

I'd love to take some ASM in my lists - I've got a case full of Assault Marines that haven't seen the light of day since the new codex.
However there isn't any way of doing apart from taking a tactical tax in some form or another.

If only I could take the Rapid Assault Force outside of the Angels Blade as a formation, I could field jumpers back up my Dreads and Terminators

Can't you? I thought you could tag on any formation to a CAD as long as you follow the restriction's.

Rapid assault forces are not independent formations.

Curse you GW and forcing that new tactical box on us instead of Assault Marines *shakes fist*

@Martel732 How? Don't they have the 3 skull formation icon in their datasheet? I know they are an aux formation in the detachment itself but surely you can just add any one to a CAD for example?

They don't have data sheets; they only exist as entries under LBSF and the Angel's Blade. That's my interpretation.

So I've got an 1850 ITC style tournament in November and I'm thinking of mixing the LBSF with a CAD to give me a couple fast moving OBSEC units to grab objectives. This is the first draft of the list

LBSF
Command
-Death Company Chaplain

-Death Company Chaplain

Death Company Strike Force
-Death Company Chaplain
Guilded Crozius
Warlord

-10x Death Company
Jump packs
2 power fists

-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

-Death Company Dreadnought
Blood talons
Magna grapple
Drop pod

10th Company Ambush Force
-5x Scouts
Shotguns

-5x Scouts
Shotguns

-5x Scouts
Combat Blades

Rapid Assault Force
-3x Bikers
2 grav guns
Combi grav

CAD
HQ
-Brother Corbulo

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Las/plas Razorback

-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Las/plas Razorback

1848 points

I like that list, although I feel that 10 man DC units are very juicy targets. I want to know how it does vs mine which has the psychology of the IK in play.

I'm not sure about that list. The 10 man DC unit with Crozius Chaplain will get shot up, after that I'm not sure what the list offers I'm afraid ?

Having said that, I still haven't played a game post Angels Blade so take anything I say with a pinch of salt.
Hopefully will start getting some games in soon

Bartali wrote:
I'm not sure about that list. The 10 man DC unit with Crozius Chaplain will get shot up, after that I'm not sure what the list offers I'm afraid ?

Having said that, I still haven't played a game post Angels Blade so take anything I say with a pinch of salt.
Hopefully will start getting some games in soon

That's what the scouts are for, and the other 2 dc squads oddly enough. The 10 man squad is shockingly durable with the reroll 1s on fnp. Even 3 grav cents in rapid fire range only managed to kill 2 with a 5+ cover saves. The other units are numerous enough (scouts, DC dread, bike squad, smaller dc units) to punish you for focusing all your firepower on the big DC squad.

Plus the 10 man unit gives me an anti deathstar. 6in free move gives me a higher chance of charging said unit, and 6 attacks rerolling to hit and wound at str5 will kill pretty much anything in the game.

I'd be a lot more impressed if the crozius gave a straight up reroll to FNP. I actually like the armor better.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Bartali wrote:
I'm not sure about that list. The 10 man DC unit with Crozius Chaplain will get shot up, after that I'm not sure what the list offers I'm afraid ?

Having said that, I still haven't played a game post Angels Blade so take anything I say with a pinch of salt.
Hopefully will start getting some games in soon

That's what the scouts are for, and the other 2 dc squads oddly enough. The 10 man squad is shockingly durable with the reroll 1s on fnp. Even 3 grav cents in rapid fire range only managed to kill 2 with a 5+ cover saves. The other units are numerous enough (scouts, DC dread, bike squad, smaller dc units) to punish you for focusing all your firepower on the big DC squad.

Plus the 10 man unit gives me an anti deathstar. 6in free move gives me a higher chance of charging said unit, and 6 attacks rerolling to hit and wound at str5 will kill pretty much anything in the game.

You'll probably know you where quite lucky vs the Cents to loose only a couple of DC - computer says you loose 4-5 on average to Cents in 5+ cover, higher again if out of cover or if they have ignore cover.
Which tournament Cents will probably have, along with some form of re-roll to hit.

Anyhoo, I'm probably being a bit poo-pooing for something just on paper without having actually tried it out myself...

Martel732 wrote:
I'd be a lot more impressed if the crozius gave a straight up reroll to FNP. I actually like the armor better.

The reroll 1s has been enough, and the ap3 is great. I definitely like the idea of Astorath and a Reliquary Armored chaplain tanking wounds though.

Edit: also the math on that woth fnp+5+ cover is 3.7 dead marines, and that's without rerolling 1s. So i wasn't THAT lucky

Bit of a bump, but I'm planning on trying the LBSF+LATF soon with 10th company support. 5 combat scouts with melta bombs are riding in the redeemer with the techmarine, and I'll have 2 asscan baal preds and one auto/las pred. It may or may not work, but it's worth a try.

Good Luck, let us know how you get on.

Re Rapid Assault Force. I just assumed it couldn't be taken as a formation outside of Angels Blade 'cos the initial rules leak said so. I can't however find anything that stops me taking it as a separate formation ? It's just a formation without any command benefits ?

Actually yeah; i don't see why not.

There's nothing I can see in the rule book that states a formation must have a datasheet to count ?

What's more interesting from some of the lists I'm working on at the moment is the possibility of taking a command formation (for a Sang Priest) to add to other formations that wouldn't normally get that choice.

Obviously the Sang Priest would nuke that units formation special rules that he joined.

Picking up the redeemer today, so unfortunately I wont have it done for todays game vs KDK. But I'll let you all know how it goes.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Picking up the redeemer today, so unfortunately I wont have it done for todays game vs KDK. But I'll let you all know how it goes.

Why not the crusader? Just curious. All kinds of bad things happen at flamer range.

The Crusaders weapons are much easier to aim with and therefore fire with. Yeah everyone knows the Flamestorm is an awesome profile, but look at the platform it is on. How will that ever get into range, let alone the firing arc?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Crusaders weapons are much easier to aim with and therefore fire with. Yeah everyone knows the Flamestorm is an awesome profile, but look at the platform it is on. How will that ever get into range, let alone the firing arc?

It's a fast vehicle in the formation, that gets a free 6in move at the start of the game and can scout 12in. So yeah, range wont be a problem.

So I used my Corbulo list i posted on this forum on page 6 against KDK. My enemy list was as follows.

2 Princes, both with wings and armor, one with bloodforged armor and the other with goredrinker

4x8 bloodletters with champions

3x soul grinders with phlegm

Gorepack with 3x3 bikes with power swords, and 3x5 flesh hounds.

Wanted to make it quick so we did dawn of war/killpoints. My dread and Corbulo were the MVPs, though the 10man DC squad killed whatever it touched. The daemon princes fell to a bunch of str5 ws5 attacks rerolling to hit and wound, and nothing else could really fight me. He did manage to summon 2 more dog squads and a bloodthirster, which was problematic. But I ended up winning by a wide margin. It was a blood bath though, on both sides.

Hey guys, I love this thread. I really enjoy reading up on what all everyone else is doing with Angel's Blade. I had a couple questions and musings and thought I'd ask about it with you guys.

Basically I keep staring at the 10th company ambush force and trying to figure a use for a scout bike squad. Under normal circumstances I'd almost never use the scout bikes for anything, but this concealed positions bonus keeps dragging me back. I'm not sure if this is really viable, but assuming since I would be forced to take cluster mines and I wouldn't wanna move the scouts anyways so they could keep their stealth bonus, would it be possible to set them up in a piece of 3+ or 4+ cover terrain then choose that very same terrain as the location for my cluster mines?

If I could, I sorta like the idea that a toughness 5 group of grenade launchers could just sit in dangerous terrain with a 2+ or 3+ cover save on top of it. I don't actually know that it would be very useful....buuuuuut kinda cool anyways. If you can.

Also, another thing I had been thinking about was the demi company vs the archangels demi company in regards to the Angels blade strike force. I know some of you had said earlier that you felt like zealot was pretty dope, but I wondered about critical mass. With regards to the demi company, the tac squads are just 1 wound 1 attack space bros, so doesn't it make more sense that the archangels demi company, all members of whom have 2 attacks, would benefit from the zealot bonus better? Does the normal battle demi company have any significant benefit then vs the archangels? I mean dreadnoughts and grav devs, but thats all I could think of really.

Anyways, just some stuff I'd been thinking about. I'm trying to come up with a new list and I've been considering all sorts of things like bolter DC vs CC DC and even whether I could get away with bolstering CC scouts with sanguinary priests with a CAD just to have some obsec or even if that would be worthwhile. Anyways, any insight is appreciated. Thanks guys

combi-grav and possibly rapid-firing s6 launchers.

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:
Hey guys, I love this thread. I really enjoy reading up on what all everyone else is doing with Angel's Blade. I had a couple questions and musings and thought I'd ask about it with you guys.

Basically I keep staring at the 10th company ambush force and trying to figure a use for a scout bike squad. Under normal circumstances I'd almost never use the scout bikes for anything, but this concealed positions bonus keeps dragging me back. I'm not sure if this is really viable, but assuming since I would be forced to take cluster mines and I wouldn't wanna move the scouts anyways so they could keep their stealth bonus, would it be possible to set them up in a piece of 3+ or 4+ cover terrain then choose that very same terrain as the location for my cluster mines?

If I could, I sorta like the idea that a toughness 5 group of grenade launchers could just sit in dangerous terrain with a 2+ or 3+ cover save on top of it. I don't actually know that it would be very useful....buuuuuut kinda cool anyways. If you can.

Also, another thing I had been thinking about was the demi company vs the archangels demi company in regards to the Angels blade strike force. I know some of you had said earlier that you felt like zealot was pretty dope, but I wondered about critical mass. With regards to the demi company, the tac squads are just 1 wound 1 attack space bros, so doesn't it make more sense that the archangels demi company, all members of whom have 2 attacks, would benefit from the zealot bonus better? Does the normal battle demi company have any significant benefit then vs the archangels? I mean dreadnoughts and grav devs, but thats all I could think of really.

Anyways, just some stuff I'd been thinking about. I'm trying to come up with a new list and I've been considering all sorts of things like bolter DC vs CC DC and even whether I could get away with bolstering CC scouts with sanguinary priests with a CAD just to have some obsec or even if that would be worthwhile. Anyways, any insight is appreciated. Thanks guys

I don't think Zealot is that good to be honest, and certainly not worth taking all the chaff units for a full Angels Blade to get it. It doesn't boost shooting units, and doesn't do anything for units that have lost half their numbers and are locked in combat.
If you want Red Thirst, there's better ways of getting it eg Lost Brotherhood Strike Force and Baal Strike Force, Mainly, just forget the Angels Blade Strike Force exists exists.

Edit - I keep swinging between being up and down about the Angels Blade book. Now down again after listening to the guy who won Battle for Salvation explain his Ravenguard list. Vanguard Veterans that can choose to auto deep strike turn 1 and then assault (with a normal charge too, thanks GW) sound an awful lot better than the BA assault from deep strike formations.

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:
Hey guys, I love this thread. I really enjoy reading up on what all everyone else is doing with Angel's Blade. I had a couple questions and musings and thought I'd ask about it with you guys.

Basically I keep staring at the 10th company ambush force and trying to figure a use for a scout bike squad. Under normal circumstances I'd almost never use the scout bikes for anything, but this concealed positions bonus keeps dragging me back. I'm not sure if this is really viable, but assuming since I would be forced to take cluster mines and I wouldn't wanna move the scouts anyways so they could keep their stealth bonus, would it be possible to set them up in a piece of 3+ or 4+ cover terrain then choose that very same terrain as the location for my cluster mines?

If I could, I sorta like the idea that a toughness 5 group of grenade launchers could just sit in dangerous terrain with a 2+ or 3+ cover save on top of it. I don't actually know that it would be very useful....buuuuuut kinda cool anyways. If you can.

Also, another thing I had been thinking about was the demi company vs the archangels demi company in regards to the Angels blade strike force. I know some of you had said earlier that you felt like zealot was pretty dope, but I wondered about critical mass. With regards to the demi company, the tac squads are just 1 wound 1 attack space bros, so doesn't it make more sense that the archangels demi company, all members of whom have 2 attacks, would benefit from the zealot bonus better? Does the normal battle demi company have any significant benefit then vs the archangels? I mean dreadnoughts and grav devs, but thats all I could think of really.

Anyways, just some stuff I'd been thinking about. I'm trying to come up with a new list and I've been considering all sorts of things like bolter DC vs CC DC and even whether I could get away with bolstering CC scouts with sanguinary priests with a CAD just to have some obsec or even if that would be worthwhile. Anyways, any insight is appreciated. Thanks guys

I don't really care about the individual marines getting zealot, I'm using the marines' deaths as triggers for libbies, captains, veteran sergeants and mephiston. The Demi-company in theory loses fewer points to trigger zealot as well. Zealot works pretty well with furious charge, and that's how GW has decided the BA are supposed to work.

Might enter a tournament for the first time in a long while next year, and will be the first time playing 1850.

Thoughts on the below. Reasonably happy with the Archangels Demi composition, but unsure about the Rapid Assault Force composition. Would love to break out my ASM again.

Angels Blade Strike Force - 1850

Archangels Demi Company
Terminator Captain
Furioso Dread w/ Frag, Melta, Pod
Furioso Dread w/ Frag, Melta, Pod
Sternguard w/ 2x Combi-Melta, Pod
Sternguard w/ 2x Combi-Melta, Pod
5x Terminators w/ 3X TH/SS, 2xTLC
5x Terminators w/ 3X TH/SS, 2xTLC
5x Terminators w/ 3X TH/SS, 2xTLC

Rapid Assault Force
10x Assault Marines w/ 2x Melta
10x Assault Marines w/ 2x Melta
5x Assault Marines w/ 1x Melta

Well, iks are hosed.

I'd have gone minimum sized and two Melta and a Combi-Melta (I think your sergeants are allowed that).

Bartali wrote:
Good Luck, let us know how you get on.

Re Rapid Assault Force. I just assumed it couldn't be taken as a formation outside of Angels Blade 'cos the initial rules leak said so. I can't however find anything that stops me taking it as a separate formation ? It's just a formation without any command benefits ?

Common mistake. Not every option in a decurion style detachment is a formation. Some are just one or more units with a fancy name so you can track what auxillaries and such you have taken. The text above every decurion spells this out in a rough but not super clear way.

Interesting list. I kinda like it.

I'm toying with the idea of the stormraven squadron with the Archangels. +1 reserves if your opponent doesn't have a flyer, and you get them on turn 1.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Interesting list. I kinda like it.

I'm toying with the idea of the stormraven squadron with the Archangels. +1 reserves if your opponent doesn't have a flyer, and you get them on turn 1.

That sounds like DFTS heresy to me.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Interesting list. I kinda like it.

I'm toying with the idea of the stormraven squadron with the Archangels. +1 reserves if your opponent doesn't have a flyer, and you get them on turn 1.

That sounds like DFTS heresy to me.

It definitely is. I kinda dig DFTS. But being able to bring 3 pods, 2 assault terminator squads, 2 units of melta vanguard vets and 2 stormravens onto the table turn 1 seems pretty nasty.

It opens the door for interceptors to wreck you though. And the Stormhawk is super nasty.

Re Stormravens. Something else I was considering for 1850 is the long forgotten "Angel's Fury Spearhead Strike Force" which in combo with some of the Angels Blade formations may work. Turn 1 assaults in combo with obsec marines is quite nice.

Still suffers from the problem of failing that re-rollable 3+ reserves roll on turn 1 though

1850 (ish)
Angel's Fury
3x Stormravens w/ Las, Melta
3x 10 Tacticals

Chapter Ancients
3x Furioso w/ Frag, Melta; Drop Pod
2x Dreads w/ Asscan; Drop Pod

At 2k+ points you could combo Angel's Fury with Archangels Demi to get everything dropping also assaulting on turn 1.

Bartali wrote:
Might enter a tournament for the first time in a long while next year, and will be the first time playing 1850.

Thoughts on the below. Reasonably happy with the Archangels Demi composition, but unsure about the Rapid Assault Force composition. Would love to break out my ASM again.

Angels Blade Strike Force - 1850

Archangels Demi Company
Terminator Captain
Furioso Dread w/ Frag, Melta, Pod
Furioso Dread w/ Frag, Melta, Pod
Sternguard w/ 2x Combi-Melta, Pod
Sternguard w/ 2x Combi-Melta, Pod
5x Terminators w/ 3X TH/SS, 2xTLC
5x Terminators w/ 3X TH/SS, 2xTLC
5x Terminators w/ 3X TH/SS, 2xTLC

Rapid Assault Force
10x Assault Marines w/ 2x Melta
10x Assault Marines w/ 2x Melta
5x Assault Marines w/ 1x Melta

I was thinking similar things, I really want TH/SS terminators and 3x Furioso's in Pods in my army all deepstriking. I was trying to fit it into an Angels Blade Force, but I really like the bonuses from the Orbital Intervention Force (Termies assaulting from Deepstrike) and the Chapter Ancients (Moving/Assaulting twice) formations by themselves. Taking them instead in the Archangel Demi-Company isn't quite as lucrative I don't think.

As a result, I was thinking of just running those two formations + a CAD anyway.

1850 BA List

Chapter Ancients
- Furioso with Frag Cannon in Drop Pod
- Furioso with Frag Cannon in Drop Pod
- Furioso with Frag Cannon in Drop Pod

Orbital Intervention Force
- 5 Assault Terminators with TH/SS
- 5 Assault Terminators with TH/SS
- 5 Assault Terminators with TH/SS

Combined Arms Detachment (About 400 to 600ish points leftover)
- Blood Angel Captain
- Tac Squad in Drop Pod
- Tac Squad in Drop Pop
- Some other stuff

The difference with the Archangels Demi and something like Chapter Ancients/Orbital Intervention is threat dispersal.

On turn 1, the majority of your Archangels Demi is going to land. With the list you've posted, you're just going to have the three dreads drop on turn 1 and your opponent can deal with your list piecemeal. I think you can get away with it at 1500, but will struggle at 1850.

In your list you'll want to factor in beacons and have either Karleen or Corbulo for your HQ for a reserves re-roll for the OIF.

How about something like this?

1850
BA CAD

HQ
-Corbulo

Troops
-3x5 Tac Marines
Melta gun
Combi melta
Drop pod with locator beacon

-5x Tac Marines
Heavy Flamer
Drop pod with locator beacon

Chapter Ancients
-3x Furioso Dreadnoughts
Frag cannon
Heavy Flamer
Drop pod with locator beacon

Archangels Orbital Intervention Force
-3x5 Assault Teeminators
TH/SS

Gives you 4 pods on turn 1 followed by 15 terminators and maybe 1 more pod turn 2.

Any way to get Karlaen instead? He can ride a pod with tac marines or whatever.

Martel732 wrote:
Any way to get Karlaen instead? He can ride a pod with tac marines or whatever.

If you cut 4 locator beacons. Which I'm not a fan of.

One things for sure; you can drop in vs Riptides with this list.

Martel732 wrote:
One things for sure; you can drop in vs Riptides with this list.

How so?

Because you can drop triple furioso turn 1. Most interceptor fire is inefficient vs av 13.

Alternatively you could swap out 2 tac pods for some scouts with beacons and melta bombs. Either in a CAD for OBSEC or in the 10th company ambush force for its special rules.

^^ I think I'd get twitchy playing a full drop pod list with no manoeuvrability after the drop. But then I play Maelstrom missions, your meta/mission type may very.

Not Angels Blade related, but I'm not sure there's been much discussion about the jump pack re-roll charge distance post draft FAQ ? Sticking a jump pack equipped model in with a bunch of otherwise footslogging models allows you to re-roll the units charge distance (as long as you didn't use the jump pack in the movement phase). Jump Sang Priests are such a huge buffer for Terminators now - +1WS, FNP and re-roll charge distances. Bonus for an Angel Wing Sang Priest on 1d6 scatter on deep strike.
Putting together a 1K list for a game vs a friend, and may give a block of foot slogging assault terminators a try.

Bartali wrote:
^^ I think I'd get twitchy playing a full drop pod list with no manoeuvrability after the drop. But then I play Maelstrom missions, your meta/mission type may very.

Not Angels Blade related, but I'm not sure there's been much discussion about the jump pack re-roll charge distance post draft FAQ ? Sticking a jump pack equipped model in with a bunch of otherwise footslogging models allows you to re-roll the units charge distance (as long as you didn't use the jump pack in the movement phase). Jump Sang Priests are such a huge buffer for Terminators now - +1WS, FNP and re-roll charge distances. Bonus for an Angel Wing Sang Priest on 1d6 scatter on deep strike.
Putting together a 1K list for a game vs a friend, and may give a block of foot slogging assault terminators a try.

Also means not using the jump pack on one guy in a unit if death co gives them the reroll, since movement is model by model and no where does it say the whole unit must choose the same movement mode.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Bartali wrote:
^^ I think I'd get twitchy playing a full drop pod list with no manoeuvrability after the drop. But then I play Maelstrom missions, your meta/mission type may very.

Not Angels Blade related, but I'm not sure there's been much discussion about the jump pack re-roll charge distance post draft FAQ ? Sticking a jump pack equipped model in with a bunch of otherwise footslogging models allows you to re-roll the units charge distance (as long as you didn't use the jump pack in the movement phase). Jump Sang Priests are such a huge buffer for Terminators now - +1WS, FNP and re-roll charge distances. Bonus for an Angel Wing Sang Priest on 1d6 scatter on deep strike.
Putting together a 1K list for a game vs a friend, and may give a block of foot slogging assault terminators a try.

Also means not using the jump pack on one guy in a unit if death co gives them the reroll, since movement is model by model and no where does it say the whole unit must choose the same movement mode.

I never thought of that. Nice!

Right!? I've been using that a lot recently. Just make sure you stay in unit coherency and you're good!

Doing that let me make two 9+in charges first turn against minotaurs space marines last week. He deployed like 3in back from his deployment line because I had first turn, to avoid being charged. Yeah, about that.

Bartali wrote:
The difference with the Archangels Demi and something like Chapter Ancients/Orbital Intervention is threat dispersal.

On turn 1, the majority of your Archangels Demi is going to land. With the list you've posted, you're just going to have the three dreads drop on turn 1 and your opponent can deal with your list piecemeal. I think you can get away with it at 1500, but will struggle at 1850.

In your list you'll want to factor in beacons and have either Karleen or Corbulo for your HQ for a reserves re-roll for the OIF.

The Archangels Demi Company, the Chapter Ancients and the Orbital Intervention Force have essentially the same units, just different combos with rules. I really like the "Assault out of Deepstrike" and the "Doube Move/Attack" of the latter two formations, but I guess the question I've been wondering about, is it really worth it? Is Assaulting out of deepstrike worth giving up deepstriking on Turn 1 and scattering D6" less?

Also, I'd have to take a CAD to get Captain Karlaen either way I play and the Archangels Demi Company includes a Terminator Captain, so I'm spending about 300 points on HQ's that aren't really pulling any weight if I go that direction.

Should I instead look for another force to ally the Chapter Ancients or Orbital Intervention Force with?

Ok, so I'm just waiting on my ForgeWorld techmarine and then this list is finished. I'll be trying it out for the first time this upcoming Wednesday, so it won't be until then that we see if this really works.

1850 LBSF

Command
-Death Company Chaplain

Death Company Strike Force
-Death Company Chaplain
Gilded Crozius
Warlord

-Death Company Dreadnought
Blood Talons
Drop Pod

-10x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power Fist
Power Sword

-5x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power Fist

-5x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power Fist

10th Company Ambush Force
-5x Scouts
Shotguns

-5x Scouts
Shotguns

-5x Scouts
Combat Blades

Lucifer Armored Task Force
-Techmarine
Bolt Pistol
Power Axe

-Land Raider Redeemer

-Baal Predator
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

-Baal Predator
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

-Predator
Lascannon Sponsons

So the combat scouts and techmarine go in the raider. Everything surges forward or redeploys on flanks. Then we hope that starting the game in the enemy deployment zone is a valid strategy!

I kinda like that idea of using the shotguns on the scout squads. Offhand, if a sanguinary priest joined one of the 10th company squads, you don't get the formation bonus then right? Or can you even do that?

Anybody think it would be reasonable to just put like 4 powerfists in one of your larger DC squads and simply use that for the same purposes you would normally build a TH/SS termy unit for? I was thinking I really like the OIF, but I'm not actually sure if I want three whole squads of TH/SS dudes if I could literally just take more and more DC instead. The termies can certainly wreck alot, but so do the DC and with better movement. Is that a bad idea??

The problem with unwieldy weapons is getting to swing before you get punched out yourself. The things that you're going to want Powerfists for are sometimes going to be swinging before you, and with AP2 and possibly ignoring FNP.

You can get away with one fist in a DC squad, but more that that isn't going to work. You're better placed to push through numbers of wounds with volume of attacks and re-rolls going at I4/5

You could gear out Vanguard Vets with Fists/Hammers and Shields with a Priest, but it ends up being stupidly expensive sadly.

You always go 1 Fist per five Death Company.

Otherwise, the Axe or Maul or Lance provide interesting opportunities. Regular sword is garbage on them.

I only ever run the sword if I need to cut points in a 10 man squad. Otherwise its 1 fist per 5. To provide a counter point, I like the sword because it usually ends up netting you assured kills vs 3+ armor save or worse targets. Too many times have I swung in with a bajillion str5 init5 ap- attacks only to have the defending player roll his dice and go "OOPS, looks like I only failed 2 out of 17!!"

That'd be why the Lance is more interesting.

You're either already winning the combat and going to sweep, and if they're in combat with something else they can't win against they won't cause enough wounds to matter.

Death company are one of those few places I approve of the Power Lance.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You always go 1 Fist per five Death Company.

Otherwise, the Axe or Maul or Lance provide interesting opportunities. Regular sword is garbage on them.

The sword has its place rerolling to hit and to wound on DC. I have some modeled, but no lances. Close enough for me.

I always thought the lance was sorta custom designed for things like bikes or units with hit and run. I hadn't ever actually considered it for my DC, but I could definitely see the benefits against units that I had a high probability of sweeping. I'll keep that one in mind. Might make for some neat modeling actually.

Thanks for the info. I'm gonna keep monkeying around with my list and see what I can make. I had this idea that it would be fun to just have army wide FNP using primarily LBSF with an additional CAD with some troops for obsec and a coupla sanguinary priests, maybe a command squad or something. Probably wouldn't be very good, but I really wanna put some of those priests to work.

Probably more questions later as well. Toodles

Thoughts on Razors ?
Putting together a list for a local 750pt tourney with limited FOC (1 HQ, 0-1 Elite, 1+ Troops) and even at this points level with limited choices it looks as though they'll go bang quickly to Scatbikes and Crisis/Riptide.

Probably better to just run scouts I guess..

What's the point of such limitations if scatbikes and riptides are allowed.

On the upside, I played and beat Necrons with my demi-company list again. Of course, a lot of it was my veritas vitae gave me the -1 to enemy reserves and his deathmarks and something tomb blades didn't arrive until turn 4. And Mephiston actually rolled null zone and used it against the Wraiths. Quickened Mephiston is murder against null zone Wraiths. And pretty much the entire Necron list. He had the other CC Necrons, but Mephy ate them, too.

Martel732 wrote:
On the upside, I played and beat Necrons with my demi-company list again. Of course, a lot of it was my veritas vitae gave me the -1 to enemy reserves and his deathmarks and something tomb blades didn't arrive until turn 4. And Mephiston actually rolled null zone and used it against the Wraiths. Quickened Mephiston is murder against null zone Wraiths. And pretty much the entire Necron list. He had the other CC Necrons, but Mephy ate them, too.

Can we actually lose to crons?

Yeah. I haven't lost to Blood Angels once myself...

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point of such limitations if scatbikes and riptides are allowed.

I know. Every time I see comp in a Tourney it boosts Eldar and Tau, and harms the weaker codexes.
They've also limited armour, which when you can take three Riptides in that single elite slot allowed seems very silly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah. I haven't lost to Blood Angels once myself...

The ultra-violence is pretty effective vs Necrons, but many BA players are stuck in the past. I'm finding the pimped out biker captain is always worth it. Him and Mephy in the same list is pretty good vs Necrons. Also, warriors hate heavy flamers.

Yeah I don't fear Meph. He's stuck at AP3. I can have frickin Nemesor hold him off.

That's the privilege of running Necrons though. Once you've gone with Skitarii you appreciate the durability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've also been running Ghost Arks again on and off. Provides minor protection to Heavy Flamers (obviously not a lot) but more importantly gives an edge vs the majority of an Eldar and Tau list.

Fails awesomely against Gladius though because Grav.

" I can have frickin Nemesor hold him off.

That's what captain power fist is for. Plus Mephy is in a squad with a power axe libby for just such an occasion. The standard Necron answer for CC is wraiths, though. Mephy does well vs Wraiths.

I use Praetorians for hitting and Wraiths for partial cleanup and bullying. It depends what list I'm bringing.

Also that's kinda a failure. Nemesor is going to hold that Captain up forever. 4++/4+++ does decently. The Axe Librarian definitely stands more of a chance. He still needs to get force off though, and I'm perfectly fine taking that chance of a 4++/5+++.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I use Praetorians for hitting and Wraiths for partial cleanup and bullying. It depends what list I'm bringing.

Also that's kinda a failure. Nemesor is going to hold that Captain up forever. 4++/4+++ does decently. The Axe Librarian definitely stands more of a chance. He still needs to get force off though, and I'm perfectly fine taking that chance of a 4++/5+++.

I don't know the stats on Nemesor. There's always a risk of being tarpitted vs Necrons, which is why I use speed to get the best matchups.

Nemesor is T5 2+/4++/4+++. He doesn't have anything special outside an okay shooting weapon but he gets picked for:
1. Being fucktons durable for 150 points
2. Being able to get special rules (he's always getting Counter Attack when I have him face Space Wolves)
3. He can choose a different Warlord trait each turn.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nemesor is T5 2+/4++/4+++. He doesn't have anything special outside an okay shooting weapon but he gets picked for:
1. Being fucktons durable for 150 points
2. Being able to get special rules (he's always getting Counter Attack when I have him face Space Wolves)
3. He can choose a different Warlord trait each turn.

Sounds like a guy I just let have an objective, honestly. And just hope that objective doesn't become necessary. If this guy's on foot, Mephy just gets dropped far away.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nemesor is T5 2+/4++/4+++. He doesn't have anything special outside an okay shooting weapon but he gets picked for:
1. Being fucktons durable for 150 points
2. Being able to get special rules (he's always getting Counter Attack when I have him face Space Wolves)
3. He can choose a different Warlord trait each turn.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you calculate multiple instances of instant death into reanimation protocols, right?

For instance, if Mephy has force and sanguine sword active he has both str10 (doubling out your toughness) and instant death, so Nemesor goes to a 2+/6+++. With Mephiston swinging between 7 and 9 attacks on the charge, it inly takes one failed 2+ to break that tarpit.

I guess it depends what kind of Necron lists you're facing. He's either in your face in a melee squad of some kind or he's doing army support junk with a small squad of some kind or he's doing things in a Pylonstar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nemesor is T5 2+/4++/4+++. He doesn't have anything special outside an okay shooting weapon but he gets picked for:
1. Being fucktons durable for 150 points
2. Being able to get special rules (he's always getting Counter Attack when I have him face Space Wolves)
3. He can choose a different Warlord trait each turn.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you calculate multiple instances of instant death into reanimation protocols, right?

For instance, if Mephy has force and sanguine sword active he has both str10 (doubling out your toughness) and instant death, so Nemesor goes to a 2+/6+++. With Mephiston swinging between 7 and 9 attacks on the charge, it inly takes one failed 2+ to break that tarpit.

1. Necrons are only ever taken in a Decurion outside of Pylonstar builds. Ergo I calculated the ID with the 5++.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nemesor is T5 2+/4++/4+++. He doesn't have anything special outside an okay shooting weapon but he gets picked for:
1. Being fucktons durable for 150 points
2. Being able to get special rules (he's always getting Counter Attack when I have him face Space Wolves)
3. He can choose a different Warlord trait each turn.

Psy will still help here. Either biomancy to make him t4 and id from a fist or -2 to inv with the new null zone. ID will also lower his RP to 5+++.

@Martel

At the start of the thread you talked about gearing Tacticals more for CC - Vet Sarge, Power Weapon, Heavy Flamer in a Rhino to take advantage of the Red Thirst. How did these work out for ?

Bartali wrote:
@Martel

At the start of the thread you talked about gearing Tacticals more for CC - Vet Sarge, Power Weapon, Heavy Flamer in a Rhino to take advantage of the Red Thirst. How did these work out for ?

They beat the ever-living crap out of necrons.

Bartali wrote:
@Martel

At the start of the thread you talked about gearing Tacticals more for CC - Vet Sarge, Power Weapon, Heavy Flamer in a Rhino to take advantage of the Red Thirst. How did these work out for ?

They've been doing okay. The heavy flamer is actually still the most devastating part of the equation, but I did beat and sweep both necron destroyers and necron warriors with tac marines. This translated to more points because I was freed up to control and objective uncontested. I think they'll be even better vs meqs in terms of killing, but obviously they can't be swept. We'll see. I'm not missing the points so far. The vanilla dread has been lost in the shuffle three times now, and so it has been surprisingly useful. The #1 bullet catcher is actually the dev team with 2 X grav 2 X heavy bolter in a rhino. It seems people really hate grav cannons and are willing to waste the fire to pop the Rhino to get at them.

It might be worth looking at Grav Devs in detail. BA can't use:

- Skyhammer
- Cataphractii
- Gladius rerolls
- Scouting Rhinos

So, a lot of the easier solutions to optimize Grav are off the table.

In terms of offensive buffs, BA is limited. But Prescience is still enough to help Grav Devs stick 9-10W on a Wraithknight in one shooting phase.

I also think there's a lot of potential in combat squadding. You can either go Drop Pod and Prescience to alpha strike WKs, or split up into Rhinos like Martel is doing to try and achieve target saturation. Defensively, there's a lot of 14pt chumps in Dev Squads so losing a few isn't disastrous. And the bigger the squad is, the more it benefits from the various enablers it can potentially gain.

At that point you're just better off with the Skyhammer when you combat squad and have two grav cannons in each squad and maybe a Combi-Flamer on one of them to scare chargers.

Yeah they got a tax of their own Assault Marines but Raven Guard makes them kinda cool.

I flat out the rhino to a good spot and sit there and shoot the whole game.

Any word on if dred formation can double tap coming out of a pod?

Why should it? It's a disembark Move. Also, any deepstrikers count as having moved anywayz.

I'm not doing that myself. I actually find it more devastating to fight twice anyway. A frag/flamer furioso frequently kills everything within template range anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not doing that myself. I actually find it more devastating to fight twice anyway. A frag/flamer furioso frequently kills everything within template range anyway.

Fighting twice is kinda hard when you are exploded. Always best to blow your load right away in this game. 2 melta is way better than 1 too. They are gonna need to clarify if you can do it or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Why should it? It's a disembark Move. Also, any deepstrikers count as having moved anywayz.

Two reasons. GW description of the formation says you can do it. Plus the wording is not specific enough to rule it out. In other situations with similar wording - "not being able to move in the movement phase" doesn't prevent the use of an ability that states you can use it instead of or if you haven't moved in the movement phase. My guess is GW will say you can't do it and make the formation totally nonviable. If they say you can though - the formation is pretty dang good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At that point you're just better off with the Skyhammer when you combat squad and have two grav cannons in each squad and maybe a Combi-Flamer on one of them to scare chargers.

The problem with Skyhammer is you have no tactical flexibility. You're locked into podding them. And as stated in this thread there's a lot of ways to outmanuever or blunt a Grav drop.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/705297.page

What I'm thinking here is you essentially give up 1x Obsec Pod and 3x FA slots for the flexibility to alpha strike if needed. I'm definitely thinking of the Eldar matchup in these respects. Also, if you can keep a detachment free -- Inquisitor with Liber Heresius? It's fairly easy to Scout the Grav Devs (inside a DT Rhino) and then you can confer Split Fire.

There is an art to putting your furiosos where the effort to explode them wrecks your opponent's game to the maximum extent. AV 13 is no joke in many circumstances. Yes, melta and grav, but that's just the risk you take with walkers. Furisos really only suffer badly against completely meched up foes. This is from the perspective of never using the meltagun option. I just want maximum template carnage.

I think the formation is good even without the double tapping upon drop pod.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
At that point you're just better off with the Skyhammer when you combat squad and have two grav cannons in each squad and maybe a Combi-Flamer on one of them to scare chargers.

The problem with Skyhammer is you have no tactical flexibility. You're locked into podding them. And as stated in this thread there's a lot of ways to outmanuever or blunt a Grav drop.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/705297.page

What I'm thinking here is you essentially give up 1x Obsec Pod and 3x FA slots for the flexibility to alpha strike if needed. I'm definitely thinking of the Eldar matchup in these respects. Also, if you can keep a detachment free -- Inquisitor with Liber Heresius? It's fairly easy to Scout the Grav Devs (inside a DT Rhino) and then you can confer Split Fire.

That's the price you pay for actually making them worth their weight though.

As far as I know you're podding Dreads and such as well. What this does is that it gives opportunity to have either one kill a transport and then kill the remains.

You can say it is tactically rigid all you want, but flexibility is far worse than specialization in this game by miles.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's the price you pay for actually making them worth their weight though.

I think the question is then about firepower.

1) 2x Grav Cannons, scouted into position (Liber Heresius). Signum + Cherub.

-- Wraithknight : 5(5/6)(8/9) + 5(8/9)(8/9) = 7.65W (5.1W w/FNP only, 3.4W w/5++)
-- Riptide : 5(5/6)(35/36) + 5(8/9)(35/36) = 8.37W (5.58W w/5++, 3.7W after FNP)

2) 2x Grav Cannons, no bonuses.

-- Wraithknight : 3(2/3)(8/9) + 3(2/3)(8/9) = 3.56W (2.37W w/FNP only, 1.58W w/5++)
-- Riptide : 3(2/3)(35/36) + 3(2/3)(35/36) = 3.89W (2.59W w/5++, 1.72W after FNP)

3) 4x Grav Cannons, podded, Signum and Prescience.

-- Wraithknight : 3(35/36)(8/9) + 9(8/9)(8/9) = 9.7W (6.47W w/FNP only, 4.31W w/5++)
-- Riptide : 3(35/36)(35/36) + 9(8/9)(35/36) = 10.61W (7.08W w/5++, 4.71W after FNP)

4) 4x Skyhammer UM Grav Cannons, rerolling w/Signum

-- Wraithknght : 5(35/36)(8/9) + 15(8/9)(8/9) = 16.17W (10.78W w/FNP only, 7.19W w/5++)
-- Riptide : 5(35/36)(35/36) + 15(8/9)(35/36) = 17.69W (11.79W w/5++, 7.86W after FNP)

5) 4x Skyhammer RG Grav Cannons, w/Signum.

-- Wraithknight : 5(5/6)(8/9) + 15(2/3)(8/9) = 12.59W (8.39W w/FNP only, 5.59W after FNP)
-- Riptide : 5(5/6)(35/36) + 15(2/3)(35/36) = 13.77W (9.18W w/5++, 6.12W after FNP)

For reference and discussion.

Yeah the Ultramarine ones are much better for the turn, no doubt about that. I merely suggested Raven Guard because you might be wanting those Assault Marines to feel like less of a tax.

I also might have been overly hopeful in thinking you could deploy an IC in a allied DT (FAQ issues).

Then again, if ITC doesn't use the FAQ, it might be alright in that context.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Ok, so I'm just waiting on my ForgeWorld techmarine and then this list is finished. I'll be trying it out for the first time this upcoming Wednesday, so it won't be until then that we see if this really works.

So, how did it go? In detail please

Xirax wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Ok, so I'm just waiting on my ForgeWorld techmarine and then this list is finished. I'll be trying it out for the first time this upcoming Wednesday, so it won't be until then that we see if this really works.

So, how did it go? In detail please

Work called, so I wasn't able to go. Plus my Techmarine still hasn't come in. Off this Tuesday/Wednesday though so I should be able to get a few good games in. Hoping to fight KDK, crons snd Tau.

Actually getting a game in with BA for the first time since Angels Blade. Playing Space Wolves, and always struggle with them with BA due to TWC, Wulfen, Axe+Shield dreads just plain being able to out assault BA. Any tips for dealing with TWC etc ? (other than make sure you get the charge

Lost Brotherhood Strike Force - 1250

DC Chaplain, Melta Bomb
DC Chaplain, Gilded Crozius, Melta Bomb
DC Dread w/ Drop Pod
10x DC w/ Fist, Power Weapon, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist. Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Power Weapon,2x Meltaguns
5x ASM w/ Power Weapon,2x Meltaguns

SW are bad news. Maybe you can wear them down with some Baal preds. Or maybe vindicators.

I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

Bartali wrote:
I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

Well, I've massacred Orks, Nercons, Dark Eldar with extreme prejudice. The SW are this weird CC outlier. It's because they field units of MCs with 3++ saves. There's literally no weapon in the game good against TWC. S10 is passable, but is still heavily blunted by the storm shields.

I can't wait to get my LBSF together to collect even more Necron tears.

I think the whole key is selective aggression, but SW are so fast that you can't do this. I dropped in Mephy, LV 2 libby with a storm shield command squad in a good place against Necrons and they literally had no answers. Mephy killed everything he touched.

Also, note that quickened Mephiston with null zone will also kill a ton of TWC. But they usually have a 2+ IC in the squad, so that's a problem.

Well I got a game in yesterday but not against who I wanted. Brought my LBSF+10th Company+LATF, my opponent brought Astra Militarium and tailored his list against me. Went about as follows.

Plasma CCS in chimera
2x melta vets in chimeras
Platoon with flamers and a commisar (for bubble wrap)
3x LRBTs with heavy bolters
Wyvern
Baneblade

So lots of ap3 templates and marine killing weapons with a good bit of anti tank.

I went first after doing a ton of pre game moving. Redeemer torched part of the platoon which opened the way for one 5 man DC squd to charge a LRBT. Baal preds each got side armor shots on chimeras and killed them. Auto las pred took 2 points off a wyvern. Shotgun scouts shot the platoon command squad down to 2 dudes, and precision shot the platoon commander out. Big squad multi charged the CCS chimera and the platoon. Took out the chimera and stayed locked with the platoon, only to break out perfectly on the next turn. Other DC unit charged and wrecked a LRBT

So basically on my 1st turn, he lost a platoon, LRBT, all 3 chimeras and most ofna wyvern. Was pretty much over after that.

Glad to hear you had a good game there, th3maninblak. Sounds like despite his list tailor you were able to bring the heat and pain in equal measure.

As an aside, I cannot for the life of me understand list tailoring. It's just poor form and is, in my opinion, TFG behavior of the highest order.

Looking forward to seeing what else folks come up with using Angel's Blade.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Martel732 wrote:

Bartali wrote:
I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

Well, I've massacred Orks, Nercons, Dark Eldar with extreme prejudice. The SW are this weird CC outlier. It's because they field units of MCs with 3++ saves. There's literally no weapon in the game good against TWC. S10 is passable, but is still heavily blunted by the storm shields.

I can't wait to get my LBSF together to collect even more Necron tears.

I think the whole key is selective aggression, but SW are so fast that you can't do this. I dropped in Mephy, LV 2 libby with a storm shield command squad in a good place against Necrons and they literally had no answers. Mephy killed everything he touched.

Also, note that quickened Mephiston with null zone will also kill a ton of TWC. But they usually have a 2+ IC in the squad, so that's a problem.

GK Nemesis Dreadknights with Gatling Psilencers are quite good fun vs TWC. Try and keep at 24" for as long as possible (with a shunt move if they get to close), and then go and punch them with S10 when their numbers are thinned.

Re LBSF and selective aggression. It's a horribly used phrase in 40K, but I think the LBSF is going to be a 'finesse' army against opponents who also have good assault lists such as Space Wolves. You'll be jockeying to initiate the assault and offering up sacrificial units to try to get your opponent to charge them, to allow you to then counter charge them with a DC Chaplain lead unit next turn.
I can see the DC Dreads being useful for setting up assaults for your DC jump units, and at higher points units would want to take the maximum three. Possibly also combo them with the Orbital Intervention Force at 2K plus.
At lower points I could see Bolter DC in Rhinos/Razors being used to set up an assault for jump DC and a DC Chaplain.

Of course if playing shooty armies the finesse goes out the window and you just want to run over to the other side of the table as fast as possible

I'm using 3 X 5 CC scouts with my LBSF as well as an IK. Scouts get a scout move plus the 6"! For maximum irritation.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm using 3 X 5 CC scouts with my LBSF as well as an IK. Scouts get a scout move plus the 6"! For maximum irritation.

Try shotguns. They're awesome.

And remember that the 6in lost brotherhood move by RAW breaks the +1 cover that the scouts have from the formation.

@Red_Thirst, list tailoring kinda sucks, it's true. But this guy was REALLY salty by the end of the game. I tabled him on the top of turn 4.

I have a bunch of metal CC scouts. If they don't work out, I can acquire more scouts and try shotguns.

I prefer shotguns mostly because it allows still okay charging for the points but you're clearly killing things before hand. Running Carcharodons makes me want to kill and sweep ASAP though instead of getting stuck in combat for a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll also be playing against some of the new Blood Angel stuff with my proxied Skitarii. I'll let you know how that goes after later tonight and what my thoughts are.

Martel732 wrote:
I have a bunch of metal CC scouts. If they don't work out, I can acquire more scouts and try shotguns.

A 2 to 1 ratio (2 shotguns to 1 close combat) on scout units has been pretty dope.

The game I played was so one sided my roommate (who is also one of the best players at the shop) said "Ok, so you really shouldn't break that list out against new players. Or anyone who isn't me outside of a tournament. We want people to have fun."

They're just scouts. Sheesh.

Martel732 wrote:
They're just scouts. Sheesh.

That just shows how bad Tactical Marines are haha!

Martel732 wrote:
They're just scouts. Sheesh.

Wasn't so much in reference to the scouts as it was to the whole list. Being able to move that much before the game even starts is kind of obscene.

Bartali wrote:
I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

So, yeah got tabled by turn 4.

My list again :-

DC Chap w/ Gilded Crozius, Meltabomb
DC Chap w/ Meltabomb
DC Dread w/ Pod
10x DC w/ Fist, Sword, Infernus Pistol, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Sword, Meltagunx2, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Sword, Meltagunx2, Jump Packs

His list :-

Wolf guard Batte Leader w/ Runic Armour, Storm Shield, Krakenblade Sword, Thunderwolf mount
4x TWC w/ 2x Storm Shield, Fist
3x TWC w/ 2x Storm Shield, Fist
5 Terminators w/, 5x Combi-melta, 3x Storm Shield,2x Axe, drop pod
5 x wulfen leader,th/ss,axe,grenade.
Ven Dread w/ Axe+Shield, Drop Pod
Ven Dread w/ Axe+Shield, Drop Pod

Cautions opening as we both jockeyed for position to initiate a charge, Dreads dropped by both of us into the middle of the table to try to bait the other player. I eventually did manage to get the charge with all three of my jump DC units, and the 10 DC unit with re-rolls is absolutely brutal. I only ended up rolling half of my regular attacks before they vaporised a TWC unit. I5 really helps vs Space Wolves

However, once I'd committed, it was pretty much game over for me. DC units got charged back and died - they're just glorified ASM without the charge. Chaplains aren't great combat characters. Axe+Shield Dreads are difficult to deal with DC. Wulfen are brutal. No doubt some user error with me on first try with LBSF, but I get the impression SW are pretty much a hard counter for LBSF.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah the Ultramarine ones are much better for the turn, no doubt about that. I merely suggested Raven Guard because you might be wanting those Assault Marines to feel like less of a tax.

The Skyhammer already lets the Assault Marines reroll their charges by using the jump packs in both the movement and assault phases?

Literally 0 reason to be Raven Guard in a Skyhammer. White Scars for hit and run or Star Phantoms to twin link the assault marines flamers, over Ultramarines I can see, sure. But any other chapter? Meh.

I figured that might be a problem with a pure jumper list. Not sure what point level this was but my lbsf has scouts, mm attack bikes, and an ik.

 Crazyterran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah the Ultramarine ones are much better for the turn, no doubt about that. I merely suggested Raven Guard because you might be wanting those Assault Marines to feel like less of a tax.

The Skyhammer already lets the Assault Marines reroll their charges by using the jump packs in both the movement and assault phases?

Literally 0 reason to be Raven Guard in a Skyhammer. White Scars for hit and run or Star Phantoms to twin link the assault marines flamers, over Ultramarines I can see, sure. But any other chapter? Meh.

Forgot about that. Still get the cover save bonus at least and the HoW bonus.

Bartali wrote:

Bartali wrote:
I always think Space Wolves encapsulates everything that's wrong with GWs direction for Blood Angels (and Angels Blade).

Give you bonuses for aggressive play style and assault, only to find you get beaten for trying it vs Space Wolves.

So, yeah got tabled by turn 4.

My list again :-

DC Chap w/ Gilded Crozius, Meltabomb
DC Chap w/ Meltabomb
DC Dread w/ Pod
10x DC w/ Fist, Sword, Infernus Pistol, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x DC w/ Fist, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Sword, Meltagunx2, Jump Packs
5x ASM w/ Sword, Meltagunx2, Jump Packs

His list :-

Wolf guard Batte Leader w/ Runic Armour, Storm Shield, Krakenblade Sword, Thunderwolf mount
4x TWC w/ 2x Storm Shield, Fist
3x TWC w/ 2x Storm Shield, Fist
5 Terminators w/, 5x Combi-melta, 3x Storm Shield,2x Axe, drop pod
5 x wulfen leader,th/ss,axe,grenade.
Ven Dread w/ Axe+Shield, Drop Pod
Ven Dread w/ Axe+Shield, Drop Pod

Cautions opening as we both jockeyed for position to initiate a charge, Dreads dropped by both of us into the middle of the table to try to bait the other player. I eventually did manage to get the charge with all three of my jump DC units, and the 10 DC unit with re-rolls is absolutely brutal. I only ended up rolling half of my regular attacks before they vaporised a TWC unit. I5 really helps vs Space Wolves

However, once I'd committed, it was pretty much game over for me. DC units got charged back and died - they're just glorified ASM without the charge. Chaplains aren't great combat characters. Axe+Shield Dreads are difficult to deal with DC. Wulfen are brutal. No doubt some user error with me on first try with LBSF, but I get the impression SW are pretty much a hard counter for LBSF.

Yeah I think one of our major issues is that points are really tight below 1750. Chapter Ancients or Stormraven Squadron would have been great in that matchup, but you can't fit those in along with everything you need for the LBSF in smaller games.

I think the trick vs wolves is to set up counter charges. If you ace a TWC unit with your 10 man squad, you need to be able to charge in on your next turn with more stuff when your big unit is inevitably assaulted.