In line with the request from the moderators that we have one thread per book, it seems like an idea to get the thread for the book-after-next created while I'm on my lunch break.
I think all the information we currently know about the book came from the preview on Saturday:
Spoiler:
The eighth book in the galaxy-spanning Psychic Awakening reaches the ruins of Cadia. While Abaddon the Despoiler has moved on to Vigilus, another villain is looking to make the system his new playground.
Yes, Fabius Bile is back! Congratulations if you picked up on the not-so-subtle hints that we’ve been dropping. This iconic character has spent 10,000 years terrorising the galaxy, and this glorious new model perfectly encapsulates his warped genius. He’s the last of the original “classic” Chaos Space Marines characters to be updated and, just like with Abaddon, Ahriman and Khârn, he’s well worth the wait. Let’s take a closer look at how the Primogenitor has changed.
As well as returning with an epic new model, Fabius is also the cover star of the next book in the Psychic Awakening saga – War of the Spider. As he spins his plans and schemes, his enemies close in on him – the Death Guard, Officio Assassinorum and Talons of the Emperor all have their reasons for wanting to stop Bile. Along with background on the battles taking place amid the ruins of the Cadia System, the book will include new rules for the Adeptus Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Imperial Assassins. There are also additional rules for each of the seven Plague Companies of the Death Guard and a new Chaos Space Marines sub-faction called Agents of Bile, representing the twisted creations of the Clonefather.
If you’re getting ready for the return of Fabius Bile, make sure that you share your conversions with us on the Warhammer 40,000 Facebook page.
I think we're unlikely to see a new datasheet for Chaos outside of Fabius Bile. If there's going to be anything to represent his new toys, it'll probably be a stratagem (think Veteran Intercessors).
With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Plague Companies were mentioned with Death Guard - but Watches weren't for Custodes. I'm curious if that omission means they won't be getting subfaction rules.
Asmodai wrote: With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Plague Companies were mentioned with Death Guard - but Watches weren't for Custodes. I'm curious if that omission means they won't be getting subfaction rules.
Hopefully they will finally get power armour option then!
As GW is doing minimal effort with Bile's creations I assume it will just be the usual single Relic, Chater tactic and a few strats as a Chaos Space Marines sub faction - still at least they get a model!
Crossed fingers that Sisters of Silence get at least a HQ character option. Even a kit bash one - apparently its good enough for Grey Knights Grandmaster babycarrier.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: I think we're unlikely to see a new datasheet for Chaos outside of Fabius Bile. If there's going to be anything to represent his new toys, it'll probably be a stratagem (think Veteran Intercessors).
I suspect it will come with new legion rules as well for the agents of bile
Bowie wrote: What are the chances the rules for Sisters of silence/Assassins won't just be copy pasted from white dwarf?
For Assassins, 100%, given they did explicitly announce new rules for them.
For Sisters of Silence, a straight re-print is possible, but unlikely.
At minimum, Sisters of Silence will have some sort of "Talons of the Emperor" keyword thing to make them play nicely with Custodes - GW said as much when revealing the Black Library character pair.
At least one strategem for each of the three SoS units seems pretty likely as well.
Asmodai wrote: With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Plague Companies were mentioned with Death Guard - but Watches weren't for Custodes. I'm curious if that omission means they won't be getting subfaction rules.
What is 'Pariah' other than an Eisenhorn/Bequin novel?
Asmodai wrote: With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Plague Companies were mentioned with Death Guard - but Watches weren't for Custodes. I'm curious if that omission means they won't be getting subfaction rules.
What is 'Pariah' other than an Eisenhorn/Bequin novel?
Necron units that were Blank humans converted into Necrons. Old lore had Necrons seed humanity with psychic nulls/blanks in order to use them as weapons
Asmodai wrote: With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Plague Companies were mentioned with Death Guard - but Watches weren't for Custodes. I'm curious if that omission means they won't be getting subfaction rules.
What is 'Pariah' other than an Eisenhorn/Bequin novel?
As above, one version of Pariahs are (human?) "blanks", people without a warp presence. Alizebeth Bequin from the Eisenhorn novels is such a person. Culexus Assassins are also made from "blanks".
Old Necron lore, as mentioned above, had human blanks connected to Necron lore, and Necrons used to have a unit called Pariahs, though they were cut (fluff and models) with the Necron re-launch in 5th.
On the Harlequin / Sister side, there is a rogue Harlequin called "the Pariah" that has worked with Ephrael Stern / Daemonifuge in the lore (who is herself an outcast Sisters ... a "pariah" of sorts).
So that could be name-drops for Clowns and Sisters, if (which rarely happens) GW wanted to build on (somewhat dated) Black Library lore.
I mentioned in the other thread, it would be really cool if in reaction to the psychic awakening, the necrons were actively searching out the pariah gene again, and they were sent to go collect a decent source of it.... Only issue is, the Inquisition are doing exactly the same thing and send out the DW to protect their assets.
Maybe we should change the name of this thread to War of the Spider and Pariah otherwise it may get locked for talking off topic though.
Wild speculation: could Bile be where the Blackstone Fortress Renegade Guardsmen get published rules rather than relying on just the boxed set's booklet?
GaroRobe wrote: To be fair, Ephrael Stern did have a cameo with the harlequin during psychic awakening. So it could totally be them
wrong Sisters.
Well, it was an off-topic tangent about Pariah, which in turn is the rumoured (but not confirmed) book after War of the Spider, which in turn is speculated to possibly be the last PA, which in turn is thus speculated to thus include Sister of Battle, which in turn led to even more far-fetched speculations about Ephrael Stern (in other words, expect "rumours" along the lines of Ephrael Stern getting a mini soon to appear within the next day or two )
Either way, seems improbable, not least because the current Sisters Codex has no psychic tree.
Mr Morden wrote: Crossed fingers that Sisters of Silence get at least a HQ character option. Even a kit bash one - apparently its good enough for Grey Knights Grandmaster babycarrier.
The obvious solution would be to just make sisters superior into HQ choices and reduce the minimum unit size to four models. I'm not sure why they didn't do that already.
They can take Primaris Psykers as HQ now though, can't they?
Asmodai wrote: With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Plague Companies were mentioned with Death Guard - but Watches weren't for Custodes. I'm curious if that omission means they won't be getting subfaction rules.
To be fair, sub-factions for Custodes dropping their The Emperor's Chosen bonus to their invul. for ... something else ... are probably a giant waste of paper.
Asmodai wrote: With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Plague Companies were mentioned with Death Guard - but Watches weren't for Custodes. I'm curious if that omission means they won't be getting subfaction rules.
To be fair, sub-factions for Custodes dropping their The Emperor's Chosen bonus to their invul. for ... something else ... are probably a giant waste of paper.
That is true - the only situation where it's useful is the list spamming 30 Sword and Board Custodian Guard since they don't benefit from the increased invul anyway. GW probably doesn't want to encourage that list.
Mr Morden wrote: Crossed fingers that Sisters of Silence get at least a HQ character option. Even a kit bash one - apparently its good enough for Grey Knights Grandmaster babycarrier.
The obvious solution would be to just make sisters superior into HQ choices and reduce the minimum unit size to four models. I'm not sure why they didn't do that already.
They can take Primaris Psykers as HQ now though, can't they?
Theymay not work with the new list - Depends if they will be classifed as Talons or not likely not.
But yeah that would work but GW often does not do the logical thing.
I'd be surprised. I think Fabulous Bill is the only Chaos release this book. And rightly so - Chaos have enjoyed a glut of releases for some time.
Yea, I'v had a thought that Agents of bile will literally only be a legion trait and a single stratagem.
Oh I reckon there'll be a lot more rules, just no other new model releases.
Presumably it'll be a subfaction trait, a number of unique stratagems, 1 or 2 relics, maybe a psychic tree and that's it? Perhaps a new mechanic unique to the faction?
Well, if there is more stuff, we should very likely see it in the preview tomorrow.
But the looks of it, Engine War is the one with the higher number of new kits released (and Saga of the Beast with a box akin to Phoenix Rising). War of the Spider (and whatever comes after) will likely be back to the single clam-pack version we've seen for things like Blood of Baal and Ritual of the Damned.
Depending on how far they go with Fabious, it could just a few basic stratagems that allow him to re-roll his "unit-upgrade"-roll or something, or they could have him unlock "custom-unit-upgrades" with a mechanic similar to the Tyranid unit adaptive biologies, the Tau customization of units from Greater Good, etc..
I'd be surprised. I think Fabulous Bill is the only Chaos release this book. And rightly so - Chaos have enjoyed a glut of releases for some time.
Yea, I'v had a thought that Agents of bile will literally only be a legion trait and a single stratagem.
Oh I reckon there'll be a lot more rules, just no other new model releases.
Presumably it'll be a subfaction trait, a number of unique stratagems, 1 or 2 relics, maybe a psychic tree and that's it? Perhaps a new mechanic unique to the faction?
All the other renegade chapters have a faction trait, 1 relic, 1 strat and 1 warlord trait, so following that pattern Latro might be right.
Asmodai wrote: With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Actually, there are also Rogue Traders. Who could really use unified rules as their own are split in like dozen places...
Kanluwen wrote: Wild speculation: could Bile be where the Blackstone Fortress Renegade Guardsmen get published rules rather than relying on just the boxed set's booklet?
Seeing they have absolute zero to do with him or anything he ever did or worked with, it's as likely as plastic Golden Throne on a Thunderhawk model.
Asmodai wrote: With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Actually, there are also Rogue Traders. Who could really use unified rules as their own are split in like dozen places...
I don't they were ever given rules in White Dwarf - but a having a reprinted and updated version of the Elucidians, Gellerpox and the 40K rules for the BSF models in one place would be great. If not in PA, then hopefully in Chapter Approved.
Asmodai wrote: I don't they were ever given rules in White Dwarf - but a having a reprinted and updated version of the Elucidians, Gellerpox and the 40K rules for the BSF models in one place would be great. If not in PA, then hopefully in Chapter Approved.
I thought there was one minidex?
Though anyway, RT really deserve their own book, they could easily fill most of FOC slots on their own now (especially if their troops weren't unique for some reason), and if you gave them a few logical units from other armies, you could write full sized book larger than half of the armies in the game. Frankly, seeing PA fluff started with Rogue Traders doing things or being mentioned a lot, it feels really weird we're getting stuff like Bile doing solo crusade or Assassins before they got something...
See, I figure that Bile is the one who'll let GW kick off "Primaris Chaos Marines", where he finally gets his guys perfected and starts seeding them (or, well, selling them) to assorted chaos bands.
Wakshaani wrote: See, I figure that Bile is the one who'll let GW kick off "Primaris Chaos Marines", where he finally gets his guys perfected and starts seeding them (or, well, selling them) to assorted chaos bands.
GW just came out with new marines and havocs. They would get a lot more mileage out of chosen, or focus on the emperors children and world eaters to get them up to Thousand Sons or Death Guard levels of model support.
Wakshaani wrote: See, I figure that Bile is the one who'll let GW kick off "Primaris Chaos Marines", where he finally gets his guys perfected and starts seeding them (or, well, selling them) to assorted chaos bands.
GW just came out with new marines and havocs. They would get a lot more mileage out of chosen, or focus on the emperors children and world eaters to get them up to Thousand Sons or Death Guard levels of model support.
Maybee not Primaris, but i'd imagine his modifications would make chosen quite happy.
Burn bright and reach daemonhood or die trying.
(not to mention that we have no chosen kit since, well , ever )
Tastyfish wrote: From the interview with Duncan Waugh on the voxcast, it sound like one of the upcoming armies is going to have a pretty strange new mechanic as part of their update. He's very vague about it, but contrasts it against things like the stratagems that just buff a unit and picking subfaction traits from a list.
It's super vague, because he's not spoiling anything but apparently this new type of thing of 'faction specific mechanics' is something that will probably be applied across other armies in the future.
I'd probably put my money on daemons, as I can see how that is more of a fluid thing and doesn't lend itself that well to subfactions.
I would love this to be a way to depict all the crazy stuff Bile does to his subjects.
Asmodai wrote: With Assassins and Sisters of Silence in this book, there will be only one White Dwarf army left (Inquisitors). I have a hunch they may show up in Pariah.
Plague Companies were mentioned with Death Guard - but Watches weren't for Custodes. I'm curious if that omission means they won't be getting subfaction rules.
To be fair, sub-factions for Custodes dropping their The Emperor's Chosen bonus to their invul. for ... something else ... are probably a giant waste of paper.
They probably wouldn't lose their core rules bonuses...space marines didn't lose doctrines and GK kept all of their bonuses while having more rules layered on. My guess is if they get something more than stratagems and Talons integration it will probably take the form of a generic "army buff" like grey knights got. They don't really have the lore or range depth to merit subfactions, IMO
They probably wouldn't lose their core rules bonuses...space marines didn't lose doctrines and GK kept all of their bonuses while having more rules layered on. My guess is if they get something more than stratagems and Talons integration it will probably take the form of a generic "army buff" like grey knights got. They don't really have the lore or range depth to merit subfactions, IMO
If it is about different Watches or Custodes, which is what I was responding to, they would. PA Eldar cannot be a custom Craftworld and Alaitoc. PA Nids cannot be a custom Hive Fleet and Kraken. PAGSC cannot be a custom Cult and Twisted Helix. PA Tau cannot be a custom Sept and Bor‘kan, etc..
Admittedly, Space Marines are different in that they can get lots of Iron Hands or White Scars specific stuff despite being a custom chapter, but that hasn’t been the norm.
The current Custodes „chapter tactic“ is currently identical to the one for Prophets of Flesh, and Coven Drukhari also have to forgo that if they‘d want a custom coven (which is the only thing they got, given Drukhari got zero strats, WL-traits, relics, etc.. in PA).
Lore-wise, the Codex has things like the Solar Watch or the Shadowkeepers, which is where the conversation came from. So the lore does support them.
A general power-buff would always be nice, but Custodes are already a pretty strong army, and far, far weaker factions like Ynnari or GSC didn't get any general buff out of PA. It's pretty much up to chance on whether the rules the writers decide to throw in there actually help the faction "strength/meta-wise".
I would love for War of the Spider to have more daemon stuff as well, but given Bile's attitude towards daemons, that may be unlikely. Instead, Primaris CSM could be like Beastmen Marines, with hooves, fangs, and other animal-like traits. For example, wings could be used in place of jump packs or jet packs.
Voss wrote: Apparently I'm confused about which supplement (Spider or Engines) is coming first.
Odd story. 'Extreme measures that we did to ourselves in secret are the fault of others, so we need spiky hats now' is a dubious chain of thought.
Becuase if they didn't, others would use extreme measures. And they woudnt limit to those who manifested powers.
Because whichever chapter this is doesn't have librarians?
Space Marine chapters can and do keep 'horrible' secrets and operate independently, and sometimes blow up inquisition ships without issue (though you have to be Space Woofs for that). Having psykers that apparently just energy blast the enemies doesn't seem to justify any of this, because this is 10,000 years after Nikea and everybody but the Black Templars have those.
Its kind of a fluff failure- its PA, so they're once again sorta vaguely trying to double down on 'psykers are a problem' thread, but librarians are so ubiquitous in SM armies that it falls flat, and the jump to chaos and full traitor thinking is just bizzarely unjustified within the story itself.
Chapter Master Broly McIntire was brooding. He had to kill one more of his chapter brothers. It was the last of them. He was now alone. But he had protected the chapter's honor, he had disguised the secret forever; noone in the Inquisition would never know that... they were not human anymore! They had extra organs and stuff! If the Inquisition ever heard of that, the chapter would have been declared Excomunicate Traitoris and killed to the last manand expurged from all records! This he would never let happen, as he slit his own throat!
You guys are such a jaded bunch. This story is a no more or less 'silly' reason for a Chapter to go Renegade than that of Lufgt Huron and the Astral Claws during the Badab War.
alextroy wrote: You guys are such a jaded bunch. This story is a no more or less 'silly' reason for a Chapter to go Renegade than that of Lufgt Huron and the Astral Claws during the Badab War.
Yeah but you've missed the part where you actively twist what happens just to moan.
alextroy wrote: You guys are such a jaded bunch. This story is a no more or less 'silly' reason for a Chapter to go Renegade than that of Lufgt Huron and the Astral Claws during the Badab War.
Agreed. I thought it was a cool story. No mentions of Chaos. Simply a Chapter choosing its own destiny. A little corner of the grimdark. It’s a free story that likely won’t impact anything ever again, no need for the Salt Patrol to deploy. :-/
JohnnyHell wrote: A little corner of the grimdark. It’s a free story that likely won’t impact anything ever again, no need for the Salt Patrol to deploy. :-/
Hey, I can't talk for others, but I am definitely not salty about this story. I just like to joke about how easily Astartes fall to Chaos. Don't confuse teasing and banter with actual animosity .
JohnnyHell wrote: Agreed. I thought it was a cool story. No mentions of Chaos. Simply a Chapter choosing its own destiny. A little corner of the grimdark. It’s a free story that likely won’t impact anything ever again, no need for the Salt Patrol to deploy. :-/
As I learnt before War of the Beast came out, you're not allowed to like Space Marine stories. It's against the Dakka rules, apparently.
Don't make the same mistake I did Johnny. Always hate stories about Marines. Call them "bolter porn" for added effect, to show how hip and with it you are to all the other cool cats who hate Space Marine stories.
Voss wrote: Apparently I'm confused about which supplement (Spider or Engines) is coming first.
Odd story. 'Extreme measures that we did to ourselves in secret are the fault of others, so we need spiky hats now' is a dubious chain of thought.
Becuase if they didn't, others would use extreme measures. And they woudnt limit to those who manifested powers.
Because whichever chapter this is doesn't have librarians?
Space Marine chapters can and do keep 'horrible' secrets and operate independently, and sometimes blow up inquisition ships without issue (though you have to be Space Woofs for that). Having psykers that apparently just energy blast the enemies doesn't seem to justify any of this, because this is 10,000 years after Nikea and everybody but the Black Templars have those.
Its kind of a fluff failure- its PA, so they're once again sorta vaguely trying to double down on 'psykers are a problem' thread, but librarians are so ubiquitous in SM armies that it falls flat, and the jump to chaos and full traitor thinking is just bizzarely unjustified within the story itself.
There's a difference between someone being a psyker since birth (or showing them after implantation) and trained by the chapter from induction to control and utilise those powers in as risk free manner as possible, and random people suddenly developing powers. One of those is accepted (for the most part) by the authorities i.e the Inquisition. The other gets you a fast ticket to exterminatus.
Voss wrote: Apparently I'm confused about which supplement (Spider or Engines) is coming first.
Odd story. 'Extreme measures that we did to ourselves in secret are the fault of others, so we need spiky hats now' is a dubious chain of thought.
Becuase if they didn't, others would use extreme measures. And they woudnt limit to those who manifested powers.
Because whichever chapter this is doesn't have librarians?
Space Marine chapters can and do keep 'horrible' secrets and operate independently, and sometimes blow up inquisition ships without issue (though you have to be Space Woofs for that). Having psykers that apparently just energy blast the enemies doesn't seem to justify any of this, because this is 10,000 years after Nikea and everybody but the Black Templars have those.
Its kind of a fluff failure- its PA, so they're once again sorta vaguely trying to double down on 'psykers are a problem' thread, but librarians are so ubiquitous in SM armies that it falls flat, and the jump to chaos and full traitor thinking is just bizzarely unjustified within the story itself.
There's a difference between someone being a psyker since birth (or showing them after implantation) and trained by the chapter from induction to control and utilise those powers in as risk free manner as possible, and random people suddenly developing powers. One of those is accepted (for the most part) by the authorities i.e the Inquisition. The other gets you a fast ticket to exterminatus.
My assumption is it would have to be a mutation that has afflicted the person suddenly now able to control psychic powers and/or a deal or pact made with a chaos entity that gives you those powers. But like you said if they're grown in the chapter they're identified and screened to make sure they don't have the chaos taint.
I'm still wondering if they plan to just release the ebooks or nothing. Because we got articles last week with trailer and stuff, but yesterday on engine wars was static silence. It's possible they wanted to keep the rule reveal for the lion... we'll see.
Voss wrote: Apparently I'm confused about which supplement (Spider or Engines) is coming first.
Odd story. 'Extreme measures that we did to ourselves in secret are the fault of others, so we need spiky hats now' is a dubious chain of thought.
Becuase if they didn't, others would use extreme measures. And they woudnt limit to those who manifested powers.
Because whichever chapter this is doesn't have librarians?
Space Marine chapters can and do keep 'horrible' secrets and operate independently, and sometimes blow up inquisition ships without issue (though you have to be Space Woofs for that). Having psykers that apparently just energy blast the enemies doesn't seem to justify any of this, because this is 10,000 years after Nikea and everybody but the Black Templars have those.
Its kind of a fluff failure- its PA, so they're once again sorta vaguely trying to double down on 'psykers are a problem' thread, but librarians are so ubiquitous in SM armies that it falls flat, and the jump to chaos and full traitor thinking is just bizzarely unjustified within the story itself.
There's a difference between someone being a psyker since birth (or showing them after implantation) and trained by the chapter from induction to control and utilise those powers in as risk free manner as possible, and random people suddenly developing powers. One of those is accepted (for the most part) by the authorities i.e the Inquisition. The other gets you a fast ticket to exterminatus.
My assumption is it would have to be a mutation that has afflicted the person suddenly now able to control psychic powers and/or a deal or pact made with a chaos entity that gives you those powers. But like you said if they're grown in the chapter they're identified and screened to make sure they don't have the chaos taint.
Not necessarily. The fluff states that everyone (with the few rare exceptions) has a presence in the warp. Psykers have a much stronger presence and are actively able to use the warp to power themselves and their various abilities. Now with the blackstone spires gone across large sections of the galaxy, you're possibly looking at everyone's presence being strengthened or the warp being stronger and therefore easier to access for a lower baseline of ability.
But hell, even if what I wrote is nonsense and it is a sudden mutation/chaos pact. Both are reasons for destroying a chapter. The Inquisition won't sit down with a cup of tea and ask a few questions and go away satisfied. They'll see heretics and mutants, declare them traitors and have them wiped out. It's been done before.
Exactly. There may be a benign reason for this sudden access to the powers of the warp (yeah, right), but the powers that be aren't likely to look for it. This is the Imperium of Man that will virus bomb a planet if to cleanse all signs of life to remove signs corruption if they planet's resources aren't valuable enough to dedicate military might to preserving.
And yes, renegade is the first step to falling to Chaos, but there is alway a perfectly reasonable reason for taking that first step.
I'm sure if you offer to have your whole chapter, really everyone, from the lowliest serf to the chapter master, to take a "quick" trip on a black ship and get fed to the Emperor, you can get away with telling your secret and not being instantly declared traitor or heretic. If you can find an accommodating Inquisitor that is, the hardcore puritans will likely have you killed before the black ship trip, just in case .
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Librarians aside nobody in the imperium is going to see a whole chapter of marines starting to become psychic at random as "no big deal."
I liked the story. And people like to characterize me as one of the worst blind marine haters, so...
Personaly i thought it was a good story and was a plausible slip from fanatical imperial loyalist to renegade. It wasnt the first or second time he had to do it, the anger and resentment built up over time with each sacrifice made
darthryan wrote: Personaly i thought it was a good story and was a plausible slip from fanatical imperial loyalist to renegade. It wasnt the first or second time he had to do it, the anger and resentment built up over time with each sacrifice made
Same here. They will probably end up Chaos at some point but it is the difference between taking a step down the stairs and jumping off the roof.
I think the story would have benefited from a bigger sting in the tail. It was a bit obvious what was going to happen - and I think there should have been an inquisitor or something breathing down their necks to make clear the stakes. There are however presumably limitations of word count.
Still there are theoretically loads of Marine chapters and loads of renegades that are sort of in the middle between the Imperium and Chaos. Its just easier to talk about the big 18 and a few well know successors, rather than inventing a new one in almost every piece of fluff. (Which would be more realistic given their tiny, tiny size in a massive galaxy, but also kind of dull.)
I don't think the addition of an external threat would actually add to the story. Nobody is doing this too them. They are doing it to themselves. More importantly, the Chapter Master is doing it to himself in a blind attempt to satisfy two different loyalties. That is the tragedy, his attempt to serve to masters made him betray them both. That and reaching out for help might have actually resulted in a more favorable result. His chapter isn't the first Imperial organization that needed a onsite headsman. The Blood Angels and the Imperial Guard both have organizations dedicated to lethal means of keeping people in line.
Tyel wrote: Its just easier to talk about the big 18 and a few well know successors, rather than inventing a new one in almost every piece of fluff. (Which would be more realistic given their tiny, tiny size in a massive galaxy, but also kind of dull.)
It wouldn't be dull. Actually, a story involving a new/unfamiliar chapter becomes instantly 18,7% more interesting, at least. It can go up to becoming 56987% more interesting, too! Just look at what Astartes, the YouTube video series, did.
Pyrosphere wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/12/psychic-awakening-the-war-of-the-spider-begins/
I guess what Bile is eviscerating here, is far worse than Chaos Primaris
I feel like Bile and Trazyn should team up as the two most troll characters in 40k. They can twiddle their proverbial mustaches togther, laughing at how it was their plan all along.
Trazyn deserves better rules than he has. At least if he were able to still replace Lychguard as he died he'd be mildly interesting. GW couldn't even keep that.
That was a Custodes he was chopping up…
Yeah, he’s gonna try reverse engineering the Custodian Genesis and mixing it with pappy Nurgle’s regenerative techniques, isn’t he.
Pyrosphere wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/12/psychic-awakening-the-war-of-the-spider-begins/
I guess what Bile is eviscerating here, is far worse than Chaos Primaris
Was that hinting at Chaos Custodes?! :O
That is terrifying.
Spoiler:
Hopefully I'm way off the mark but it felt like he was discussing using both the Plague Marines and Custodes in some weird way.
Roknar wrote: Fabius has been able to make actual primarchs since forever, I don't get the excitement about the teaser or him dissecting primaris.
He cloned them once. And regretted it immensely. Twice.
Once during the whole false Horus mess which shattered multiple legions, his world and laboratory, and thousands of years later when he found the clone Fulgrim had survived, and having him around was terrible for his plans and goals, and the future of his New Humanity.
Making one thing great once isn't as good as making something pretty good thousands of times. I think that's what Fabius is after, the ability to make something that's better than a marine, but mass-produced.
What's the least inspired, and most disappointing, way this can turn out? Whatever that is, it probably is what is in the book.
FB durtles around, does something that sounds interesting but ultimately fails and everything is the same as it always was, however we have a new model for him, is my bet for the likely ticket here.
H wrote: What's the least inspired, and most disappointing, way this can turn out? Whatever that is, it probably is what is in the book.
FB durtles around, does something that sounds interesting but ultimately fails and everything is the same as it always was, however we have a new model for him, is my bet for the likely ticket here.
My bet, Fabious tries luring the Custodes and DeathGuard into each other in the hopes he can pick up the pieces afterwards. Most of the Custodes force holds up the Deathguard while a strike team goes in to kill Fabius. Fabius escapes, but with the Deathguard in hot pursuit. Custodes have a pyric victory and celebrate "saving" the ruins of Cadia and setting two enemy factions upon one another.
Nah, the assassins are in this book too so they will be the ones after Fabulous Bill while the Custards have a good ol’ rousing game of pop-the-sapient-mobile-zit with the Death Guard.
Super pumped for this book! Fabius Bile is one of my favorite Black Library characters. Hoping for some rules for some of his new men and many more wacky creations!
H wrote: What's the least inspired, and most disappointing, way this can turn out? Whatever that is, it probably is what is in the book.
FB durtles around, does something that sounds interesting but ultimately fails and everything is the same as it always was, however we have a new model for him, is my bet for the likely ticket here.
The least inspired and most disappointing thing would be chaos primaris, obviously.
personally I don't find any of this interesting at all. Fabious is as dull a character as there is, and really doesn't belong with any army currently. He's a Saturday morning cartoon character, being chased by the Mystery mobile. he certainly didn;t warrant a new model, especially with how many other characters have been passed over. Cypher is infinitely more interesting and if any new Chaos faction should be explored, it's Fallen, especially if some of the models look half as good as the new DA 30K range. Custodes should also remain a minor release, not a full fledged army. Roll in the Sisters of Silence and leave them be.
Some of the choices are really odd for these next few books. Knights really don't need anything, they have a plethora of rules for such few models. Crazy. Daemons and Admech certainly can be explored more thoroughly though.
H wrote: What's the least inspired, and most disappointing, way this can turn out? Whatever that is, it probably is what is in the book.
FB durtles around, does something that sounds interesting but ultimately fails and everything is the same as it always was, however we have a new model for him, is my bet for the likely ticket here.
My bet, Fabious tries luring the Custodes and DeathGuard into each other in the hopes he can pick up the pieces afterwards. Most of the Custodes force holds up the Deathguard while a strike team goes in to kill Fabius. Fabius escapes, but with the Deathguard in hot pursuit. Custodes have a pyric victory and celebrate "saving" the ruins of Cadia and setting two enemy factions upon one another.
Don't forget the most important bit: Fabius cracks the genetic code of Custodes, and synthesises a super-serum for genetically enhanced CSM. However, upon doing so the Custodes attack his base and steal the serum, thus leading to a new line of Primaro-Custodes miniatures, and a new suite of rules for all loyalist Astartes factions. Thankfully, CSM get prodigious benefits from Fabius' experiments nonetheless: Chaotic Supermen (3CP) Pick d3 units of min-squad CSM with no weapon upgrades. They can re-roll hit rolls of 1 against Astartes vehicles.
TonyH122 wrote: Thankfully, CSM get prodigious benefits from Fabius' experiments nonetheless: Chaotic Supermen (3CP) Pick d3 units of min-squad CSM with no weapon upgrades. They can re-roll hit rolls of 1 against Astartes vehicles.
bullyboy wrote: personally I don't find any of this interesting at all. Fabious is as dull a character as there is, and really doesn't belong with any army currently. He's a Saturday morning cartoon character, being chased by the Mystery mobile. he certainly didn;t warrant a new model, especially with how many other characters have been passed over. Cypher is infinitely more interesting and if any new Chaos faction should be explored, it's Fallen, especially if some of the models look half as good as the new DA 30K range. .
Cypher already got a new model, and the 30K DA is a pretty good argument for not doing more 40kDA. Marines are marines, so if you want pretty DA, just use those. Unit wise, there's a lot more stuff to update than marines that can be done perfectly well with the stock boxes.
As for chaos characters, Bile is honestly one of the few I actually find interesting. No 14 point, millennia spanning plan to blow up a planet of guardsmen, no Raagh! Gods! Raaargh!, just a comprehensible motive and ambition of his own that transcends the little boxes GW likes to trap factions in.
I don't have much faith they'll do a major background plot justice in mini-supplement army list form, but of the chaos characters he's the major one left until they decide to give the Emperor's Children the TS and DG treatment. Even Kharn is up to date (though sadly berserkers are not)
TonyH122 wrote: Thankfully, CSM get prodigious benefits from Fabius' experiments nonetheless: Chaotic Supermen (3CP) Pick d3 units of min-squad CSM with no weapon upgrades. They can re-roll hit rolls of 1 against Astartes vehicles.
Now that made me laugh.
That's too broken for CSM to have. Just make it against Rhinos for a true taste of GW balance
H.B.M.C. wrote: Plot Twist: War of the Spider turns out to be a new "Eye of Terror Campaign" and is awash with examples and ideas for kitbashing new units!
I'd love a new man lost and the damned with lab spawn!
Heck you could've regulars aswell as lab guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: personally I don't find any of this interesting at all. Fabious is as dull a character as there is, and really doesn't belong with any army currently. He's a Saturday morning cartoon character, being chased by the Mystery mobile. he certainly didn;t warrant a new model, especially with how many other characters have been passed over. Cypher is infinitely more interesting and if any new Chaos faction should be explored, it's Fallen, especially if some of the models look half as good as the new DA 30K range. Custodes should also remain a minor release, not a full fledged army. Roll in the Sisters of Silence and leave them be.
Some of the choices are really odd for these next few books. Knights really don't need anything, they have a plethora of rules for such few models. Crazy. Daemons and Admech certainly can be explored more thoroughly though.
Cypher is more interesting then Fabouls?
Fabius has atleast multiple angles to work with! He has ambition and is not an AL seized magic wand 2.0 like cypher is?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Plot Twist: War of the Spider turns out to be a new "Eye of Terror Campaign" and is awash with examples and ideas for kitbashing new units!
Thanks for the laugh. Best joke this forum has seen On these corona days good laughs are welcome.
Roknar wrote: Fabius has been able to make actual primarchs since forever, I don't get the excitement about the teaser or him dissecting primaris.
Cloning a Primarch and making a Primarch strike me as two different things.
Primaris and Custodes again are distinct genetic constructs. Primaris have new organs, and ‘purified’ Geneseed. Both would be of great interest to Bile. Whilst it seems possible he may have a method of purifying/stabilising Geneseed, he’d be a poor scientist if he had no interest in how another did it. Maybe his way is better, maybe it’s not. Perhaps he can find a way to blend the techniques. And remember, one of their unique organs is incomplete - the Magnificat. Allegedly this is based on a Primarch organ, but Cawl could find neither the genetic material or blueprint for the whole thing. Given Bile could, conceivably if not easily, clone that specific organ?
Custodes? Each and everyone is a custom job. I’m not even sure if the use Geneseed, or if the specific details of how they differ from Astartes has been shown in canon. Either way, each and every Custodes dissected or vivisection by Bile would yield new information.
If Bile can learn enough to create entirely new Primarchs, who knows what he might do with them. How many, if any, would he create? Would they be loyal to him, as the originals were to The Emperor ( at least at first). If he can ever mass produce them, they could be deliberate burners. Created for overwhelming force, with no concern at all for their overall survival?
strigops wrote: I'm still wondering if they plan to just release the ebooks or nothing. Because we got articles last week with trailer and stuff, but yesterday on engine wars was static silence. It's possible they wanted to keep the rule reveal for the lion... we'll see.
I doubt there’d be a 40k Lion releasing so close to the 30k one.
And if they were it would have been with the DA book..
Is it because of the online preview style that everyone thinks there’s more to the Lion release than it is?
When Russ and all the others came, we didn’t get all this ‘maybe 40k now’ talk..
Roknar wrote: Fabius has been able to make actual primarchs since forever, I don't get the excitement about the teaser or him dissecting primaris.
Cloning a Primarch and making a Primarch strike me as two different things.
Primaris and Custodes again are distinct genetic constructs. Primaris have new organs, and ‘purified’ Geneseed. Both would be of great interest to Bile. Whilst it seems possible he may have a method of purifying/stabilising Geneseed, he’d be a poor scientist if he had no interest in how another did it. Maybe his way is better, maybe it’s not. Perhaps he can find a way to blend the techniques. And remember, one of their unique organs is incomplete - the Magnificat. Allegedly this is based on a Primarch organ, but Cawl could find neither the genetic material or blueprint for the whole thing. Given Bile could, conceivably if not easily, clone that specific organ?
Custodes? Each and everyone is a custom job. I’m not even sure if the use Geneseed, or if the specific details of how they differ from Astartes has been shown in canon. Either way, each and every Custodes dissected or vivisection by Bile would yield new information.
If Bile can learn enough to create entirely new Primarchs, who knows what he might do with them. How many, if any, would he create? Would they be loyal to him, as the originals were to The Emperor ( at least at first). If he can ever mass produce them, they could be deliberate burners. Created for overwhelming force, with no concern at all for their overall survival?
My point was more that, with everything that Bile has been able to do in the lore already, being able to dissect custodes or primaris is a drop in the ocean.
They have had the lore to do something with that if they wanted to for a while now. So I don't see how how this makes it MORE likely to get new models than before.
TonyH122 wrote: Don't forget the most important bit: Fabius cracks the genetic code of Custodes, and synthesises a super-serum for genetically enhanced CSM. However, upon doing so the Custodes attack his base and steal the serum, thus leading to a new line of Primaro-Custodes miniatures, and a new suite of rules for all loyalist Astartes factions. Thankfully, CSM get prodigious benefits from Fabius' experiments nonetheless: Chaotic Supermen (3CP) Pick d3 units of min-squad CSM with no weapon upgrades. They can re-roll hit rolls of 1 against Astartes vehicles.
Congratulations, you've been promoted to the GW Design Team!
TonyH122 wrote: Don't forget the most important bit: Fabius cracks the genetic code of Custodes, and synthesises a super-serum for genetically enhanced CSM. However, upon doing so the Custodes attack his base and steal the serum, thus leading to a new line of Primaro-Custodes miniatures, and a new suite of rules for all loyalist Astartes factions. Thankfully, CSM get prodigious benefits from Fabius' experiments nonetheless: Chaotic Supermen (3CP) Pick d3 units of min-squad CSM with no weapon upgrades. They can re-roll hit rolls of 1 against Astartes vehicles.
Congratulations, you've been promoted to the GW Design Team!
Honestly, i can see something equally as laughable.
See, there's that boon of chaos table right?
What if,hear me out, fabious bile let's you roll for all infantry, bikers, and hellbrutes of the army on it?
Spoiler:
and they forget to remove the character specification making it useless for the first months until the inevitable FAQ strikes?
See, there's that boon of chaos table right?
What if,hear me out, fabious bile let's you roll for all infantry, bikers, and hellbrutes of the army on it?
Spoiler:
and they forget to remove the character specification making it useless for the first months until the inevitable FAQ strikes?
Anything that doesn't function well, or even at all, is exactly the design space we have in mind for Chaos!
After all, it's is Chaos, they shouldn't actually do anything useful,
I wouldn't be surprised if they gave a +1 S/T/A table. Or just the generics drugs list - and said that was your chapter tactic, have fun.
Its a difficult one to call. There are lots of rules I think they could add to try and reflect Fabius and co from the books (along with some significant limitations to keep it in check) - but it all potentially gets quite fiddly for what is probably going to be a throw away faction that will never be mentioned again. "Here's the Dark Eldar drugs table again, just select or roll it" would be relatively simple to do.
New story up and I had no idea which psychic awakening book it was for until I reread the thumbnail pic lol.
Honestly, it's pretty trash IMHO. It's the worst form of bolter porn. I am no prude and I like decent action when it services the story, but mindless over the top descriptions of deaths of guys I can't keep track of and have no interest in is just bad writing.
I legit had to re-read the first 3 paragraphs several times to figure out who and which character was referring to who. Zero character development and terrible descriptions of the action. They basically introduce another *"fill in your never before heard of chapter name salad here"* so they can puff up how apparently a sister of silence squad leader can cut down a primaris captain through cheap shots
No idea who I am supposed to route for here. I am guessing the new primaris are just serving as experimental meat for fabulous Bill ha ha
Wait, are those, like , supposed traitor primaris?
The world of Khassedur had been their destination through long months of toil and trial, across blazing battlefields and amidst the teeth of ferocious warp storms. Their duty had been to reach it, to deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields to their newly adopted home world, and to see that Chapter Master Kaslyn accepted the gift of Cawl’s Miracle.
Red Corsair wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/20/psychic-awakening-consequences/
New story up and I had no idea which psychic awakening book it was for until I reread the thumbnail pic lol.
Honestly, it's pretty trash IMHO. It's the worst form of bolter porn. I am no prude and I like decent action when it services the story, but mindless over the top descriptions of deaths of guys I can't keep track of and have no interest in is just bad writing.
I legit had to re-read the first 3 paragraphs several times to figure out who and which character was referring to who. Zero character development and terrible descriptions of the action. They basically introduce another *"fill in your never before heard of chapter name salad here"* so they can puff up how apparently a sister of silence squad leader can cut down a primaris captain through cheap shots
No idea who I am supposed to route for here. I am guessing the new primaris are just serving as experimental meat for fabulous Bill ha ha
Of course a Sister of Silence Knight-Centura and Custodes Shield Captain can kill a Marine Captain together its not like she did it with her hands and blindfolded. One of her Sisters dies from a mere blow from a Marine.
I did like this
‘I am Custodes. I speak with the Emperor’s voice. Were you loyal, you would set down your weapons and accept your guilt. But you side with your brothers before your Emperor, as the Adeptus Astartes always have.’
Kirasu wrote: Yeah, absolutely impossible for a human to kill a primaris in actual close combat.. That's pretty insane, but hey gotta promote the new book!
I wish GW would just say that the SoS are enhanced. At least it would explain why they are so damn tall.
Kirasu wrote: Yeah, absolutely impossible for a human to kill a primaris in actual close combat.. That's pretty insane, but hey gotta promote the new book!
I wish GW would just say that the SoS are enhanced. At least it would explain why they are so damn tall.
Bolter porn depictions where a marine impossibly solos 1000 orks aside, marines have never been depicted as out of the reach of a skilled human with a power weapon. Advantaged, certainly, but not undefeatable.
That said, I’m more concerned with the Custodian acting like an inquisitor or commissar. Custodes are imperial truth adherents with a large amount of intelligence and knowledge needed for their role, and despite having their own flaws and biases, shouldn’t be buying into the standard issue “guilt by vague superficial association” mindset of other imperial organisations.
Kirasu wrote: Yeah, absolutely impossible for a human to kill a primaris in actual close combat.. That's pretty insane, but hey gotta promote the new book!
I wish GW would just say that the SoS are enhanced. At least it would explain why they are so damn tall.
Bolter porn depictions where a marine impossibly solos 1000 orks aside, marines have never been depicted as out of the reach of a skilled human with a power weapon. Advantaged, certainly, but not undefeatable.
That said, I’m more concerned with the Custodian acting like an inquisitor or commissar. Custodes are imperial truth adherents with a large amount of intelligence and knowledge needed for their role, and despite having their own flaws and biases, shouldn’t be buying into the standard issue “guilt by vague superficial association” mindset of other imperial organisations.
One of the rationalizations I've seen for the Custodian's reaction has been that the Custodes hate the Astartes after the Heresy and blame the Astartes for the current state of the Imperium. I personally don't recall reading that anywhere, but I also can't say that I've read every piece of fluff that exists. I'm of the opinion that the Custode went from 0-PURGE! way faster than was reasonable given the situation, especially as they're supposed to be the most enlightened scholars in the Imperium with full knowledge of the Heresy itself.
Quick copy & paste from Twitter (Andy Clark wrote Consequences):
David Wilson @AoZain Hey @AClark2018, loved "Consequences" on the warcom site. Question: I thought Greyshields would have no direct relation to the new chapter, other then their primarch's geneseed? Why wouldn't they be used to hunt the Drakes and then form a new chapter?
Andy Clark is staying home @AClark2018 Replying to @AoZain 1) Hi very glad that you enjoyed it! To answer your question, I think in this instance it’s a case of ‘the Imperium doesn’t always take the most logical course of action’ where intolerance and mistrust are involved. Also, if you caught Duncan’s recent... 2) ...short ‘Burden of Brotherhood’ on warcom you’ll see there’s a bit more awry than perhaps first meets the eye. Besides which, there’s some major historical mistrust lingering between the Custodes and the Adeptus Astartes, and it’s likely that coloured Tyvar’s judgement. 3) hope that’s helpful
I'm just glad that no one here even suspects treachery on behalf of the Inquisition.
That would just be unthinkable, Emperor know's what would happen if someone with the ultimate sanction ever fell to chaos. Even an inquisitorial seal falling into the hands of the Enemy could be disastrous. Just as well the High Lords pick in whom to place their trust so wireless.
I mean, the best rationalisation for the custodian’s actions when you consider he isn’t coming from an imperial cult perspective on things is indeed that he just had an itchy trigger finger and was looking for any excuse he could find to kill marines.
But... Whilst inquisitors and commissars and such acting irrational and performing mass murder over a stupid misunderstanding serves a purpose in illustrating how much of a mess the imperium is... what purpose does a short story about a shield captain looking for excuses to kill marines out of personal bigotry serve? What does that illustrate about the setting other than a failure to cleanly illustrate that the custodes don’t normally act like other imperial institutions?
A better story would have been a Custodes on trial amongst his peers for killing Primaris with out due cause. But that would require a better writer.
As Andy Clark doesn't seem to know that Primaris are not Astartes or the insight Custodes have gained in the intervening years as to their own faults in the Heresy.
But I guess making Custodes berzerking zealots in the age of bad fluff is par for the course.
changemod wrote: I mean, the best rationalisation for the custodian’s actions when you consider he isn’t coming from an imperial cult perspective on things is indeed that he just had an itchy trigger finger and was looking for any excuse he could find to kill marines.
But... Whilst inquisitors and commissars and such acting irrational and performing mass murder over a stupid misunderstanding serves a purpose in illustrating how much of a mess the imperium is... what purpose does a short story about a shield captain looking for excuses to kill marines out of personal bigotry serve? What does that illustrate about the setting other than a failure to cleanly illustrate that the custodes don’t normally act like other imperial institutions?
Hmm , considering the "traitors" seemed to be primaris, maybee just a salespitch?
But even then one could've easily acomplished that without custodes?
Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.
However the Story itself also is a bit wierd, for one a custodes, handpicked/crafted and educated goes on a merry go lucky delivery Run with some newbie marines , fights alongside them and just curbs them afterwards because the chapter that should get them turned? Supposedly?
changemod wrote: I mean, the best rationalisation for the custodian’s actions when you consider he isn’t coming from an imperial cult perspective on things is indeed that he just had an itchy trigger finger and was looking for any excuse he could find to kill marines.
But... Whilst inquisitors and commissars and such acting irrational and performing mass murder over a stupid misunderstanding serves a purpose in illustrating how much of a mess the imperium is... what purpose does a short story about a shield captain looking for excuses to kill marines out of personal bigotry serve? What does that illustrate about the setting other than a failure to cleanly illustrate that the custodes don’t normally act like other imperial institutions?
The Custodes never left Terra en mass before, nor was the Imperium is as dire straights as it is now.
Plus he was justified, having been told by the Inquisition that half of the chapter had potentially turned, he merely placed the Brazen Drakes under arrest and killed the marine that demanded to be allowed to reinforce the 'loyal' Drakes on the planet.
Space marines have proved time and time again that they will not accept any censure or oversight from elsewhere in the Imperium and consider themselves a law unto themselves - even here the Drakes immediately tried to take control of the fleet! The story even mentions that this is split second decision making, as transhuman warrior reflexes allow no time for measured consideration.
And how do you come back after stealing a fleet and killing Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Navy in order to clear your own name!?
As for the point of the story, it's introducing us to the new role the Custodes have had forced upon them - which will lead them into this story. We're not told of the chapter in "the Burdan of Brotherhood" - so if Bile has lost his previous support to the Death Guard, and then signs up with the Brazen Drakes and perhaps promises to cure the psychic plague that's umm...plaguing them, then we now know why the Custodes are also hot on his trail.
Deathguard chasing Bile, Custodes chasing the Drakes - with alternatively this story being more something to develop the Drakes as much as the Custodes.
[edit]Different chapter master names though, unless Corian became Chapter master after doing the necessary deed to Kaslyn.
changemod wrote: I mean, the best rationalisation for the custodian’s actions when you consider he isn’t coming from an imperial cult perspective on things is indeed that he just had an itchy trigger finger and was looking for any excuse he could find to kill marines.
But... Whilst inquisitors and commissars and such acting irrational and performing mass murder over a stupid misunderstanding serves a purpose in illustrating how much of a mess the imperium is... what purpose does a short story about a shield captain looking for excuses to kill marines out of personal bigotry serve? What does that illustrate about the setting other than a failure to cleanly illustrate that the custodes don’t normally act like other imperial institutions?
The Custodes never left Terra en mass before, nor was the Imperium is as dire straights as it is now.
Plus he was justified, having been told by the Inquisition that half of the chapter had potentially turned, he merely placed the Brazen Drakes under arrest and killed the marine that demanded to be allowed to reinforce the 'loyal' Drakes on the planet.
Space marines have proved time and time again that they will not accept any censure or oversight from elsewhere in the Imperium and consider themselves a law unto themselves - even here the Drakes immediately tried to take control of the fleet! The story even mentions that this is split second decision making, as transhuman warrior reflexes allow no time for measured consideration.
And how do you come back after stealing a fleet and killing Custodes, Sisters of Silence and Navy in order to clear your own name!?
As for the point of the story, it's introducing us to the new role the Custodes have had forced upon them - which will lead them into this story. We're not told of the chapter in "the Burdan of Brotherhood" - so if Bile has lost his previous support to the Death Guard, and then signs up with the Brazen Drakes and perhaps promises to cure the psychic plague that's umm...plaguing them, then we now know why the Custodes are also hot on his trail.
Deathguard chasing Bile, Custodes chasing the Drakes - with alternatively this story being more something to develop the Drakes as much as the Custodes.
[edit]Different chapter master names though, unless Corian became Chapter master after doing the necessary deed to Kaslyn.
For what it’s worth, no he doesn’t shoot the captan who’s first instinct was to investigate personally. He shoots an impulsive marine who points out it’s absurd to consider them traitors when they have no connection to the traitors other than gulliman-assigned heraldry.
Different chapter master names though, unless Corian became Chapter master after doing the necessary deed to Kaslyn.
I had to go back and reread The Burden of Brotherhood, but did you notice that along with not naming the chapter, they characters were all referred to by first name? Could it be that story was the Brazen Drakes under the leadership of Chapter Master Corian Kaslyn?
The world of Khassedur had been their destination through long months of toil and trial, across blazing battlefields and amidst the teeth of ferocious warp storms. Their duty had been to reach it, to deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields to their newly adopted home world, and to see that Chapter Master Kaslyn accepted the gift of Cawl’s Miracle.
Nope, not traitor primaris. The chapter on the planet that turned traitor was old type marines, and the 'two companies' on the ship were Primaris slated to join the chapter.
They objected to 'guilt by association' with people they'd never even met, so the Custodes over-reacted and the Sisters followed along.
It was pure blue on blue for the sake of melodrama.
BrotherGecko wrote: A better story would have been a Custodes on trial amongst his peers for killing Primaris with out due cause. But that would require a better writer.
As Andy Clark doesn't seem to know that Primaris are not Astartes or the insight Custodes have gained in the intervening years as to their own faults in the Heresy.
But I guess making Custodes berzerking zealots in the age of bad fluff is par for the course.
Primaris are just improved marines. Still marines. Not some supernatural flawless things. If anything custodians are created to be far more perfect than any marines were even intended. Marines are the mass produced cheap troops that were meant to be exterminated once their use was done same way as thunder warriors were.
Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.
However the Story itself also is a bit wierd, for one a custodes, handpicked/crafted and educated goes on a merry go lucky delivery Run with some newbie marines , fights alongside them and just curbs them afterwards because the chapter that should get them turned? Supposedly?
You think that would stop them? They can just do what they did with chaos knights: put differently painted, edgy named miniatures on the website. You sell double the miniatures with only one kit. Put some rules for them in war of the spider and you're done. Probably they'll be identintic to the loyalist version, just with angels of death being replaced by death to the false emperor.... making them worse, so no one will try to use them competitivly outside of the edgy... okay edgier named eliminators to see if giving a sniper unit to chaos helped.
Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.
However the Story itself also is a bit wierd, for one a custodes, handpicked/crafted and educated goes on a merry go lucky delivery Run with some newbie marines , fights alongside them and just curbs them afterwards because the chapter that should get them turned? Supposedly?
You think that would stop them? They can just do what they did with chaos knights: put differently painted, edgy named miniatures on the website. You sell double the miniatures with only one kit. Put some rules for them in war of the spider and you're done. Probably they'll be identintic to the loyalist version, just with angels of death being replaced by death to the false emperor.... making them worse, so no one will try to use them competitivly outside of the edgy... okay edgier named eliminators to see if giving a sniper unit to chaos helped.
I don't know about you, but i'd rather not see Chaos intercissors schooting twice with +1 to wound.
Or eliminators for that matter.
BrotherGecko wrote: A better story would have been a Custodes on trial amongst his peers for killing Primaris with out due cause. But that would require a better writer.
As Andy Clark doesn't seem to know that Primaris are not Astartes or the insight Custodes have gained in the intervening years as to their own faults in the Heresy.
But I guess making Custodes berzerking zealots in the age of bad fluff is par for the course.
Primaris are just improved marines. Still marines. Not some supernatural flawless things. If anything custodians are created to be far more perfect than any marines were even intended. Marines are the mass produced cheap troops that were meant to be exterminated once their use was done same way as thunder warriors were.
More than that: Primaris are what Marines should have been in the first place. I suppose one can argue about their implementation into existing lore, but that goes for pretty much every other release, depending on your perspective. The scale overhaul was long overdue and inevitable, and GW makes miniatures first and lore second.
pretty basic story. Seems clear that they're setting up the stage for renegade primaris, disillusioned by the senseless waste of imperial warfare.
Nobody within the machine of the imperium is a perfect, omniscient calculator. The custode found out they were carrying reinforcements to a legion that had turned traitor and acted quickly.
YOU know that primaris marines are supposedly not related to their brethren, but would HE know? probably not. Also, lol@ folks boo-hooing that a unit of intercessors can be killed by a dedicated close combat unit jumping them from like 10 feet away and a space marine captain with a power sword can't take on a SOS HQ and a custode shield captain at the same time.
Kirasu wrote: Yeah, absolutely impossible for a human to kill a primaris in actual close combat.. That's pretty insane, but hey gotta promote the new book!
I wish GW would just say that the SoS are enhanced. At least it would explain why they are so damn tall.
Could be simple selective breeding, especially when you have the Pariah gene involved.
As for the story, I thought it was fine. Given the upheaval of Daemons attacking Terra directly and being restored to a more direct combatant arm of the Imperium (rather than just guarding the Throne and quietly taking out threats to the throne at a distance) a hard line Custodes with zero tolerance for heresy choosing to condemn a chapter for the acts of their brethren is no different from what many Inquisitors would do or have done. Remember the little spat between the Inquisition and Grey Knights vs the Space Wolves after Armageddon I?
Eh, except given how Primaris are being (or were) made, and being delivered for the first time ever, and given how Guilliman himself is doing this, and given how Custodes are sent out at his behest...
At the end of the day, whatever, it is just a bad story in a long line of bad stories that GW has put out.
MajorWesJanson wrote: no different from what many Inquisitors would do or have done.
That’s the exact issue I and others have with it. It’s not that the custodian decides to execute 200 marines, but that he went about it like an inquisitor, especially in his opening lines of telling the marines they were filthy heretics unfit to look at or speak to any imperial citizen.
Custodians are meant to be an echo of the emperor’s original plans for the imperium, and whilst they can certainly be dogmatic, intolerant and flawed in various ways, with good writing they’d express those flaws with a very different flavour to an inquisitor or commissar.
The Shield Captain gave them the Chance to put down their weapons, they didn't so he thought there must be something to it. I'd argue an Inquisitor might not have given them that chance. I liked the story, it brought a grimdark vibe to Custodes and Primaris, that these shiny Boys certainly need. Also reminded me of what happened to the Fists Exemplar in the Beast series.
You guys have a much nicer image of the Custodes than I do. It is right there in the story, they were "confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis" but the Inquisition. The most serious charge of the inquisition for which the penalty is death, the charge for this consorting with or under the influence of daemons, practicing witchcraft, and heresy against the Emperor.
He demanded their surrender and was even nice enough to tell them twice before executing someone who failed to comply with his order to surrender.
But i guess that awesome Custodes training and gene craft should have stopped him from being so hasty, even after 10K years watching over the Emperor entombed in the Golden Throne where he was put by the traitor primarchs and their traitor Astartes. 10K years of watching the Imperium descend into a mockery of the Imperial Truth. And then being scolded by the Emperor's returned son for hiding behind the walls of the Imperial place all those millennia instead of helping preserve the Imperium.
Yeah, that definitely should have stayed his hand. He definitely should have listened to what the confirmed traitors had to say in their defense before they laid down their arms. It's not like the Empreror ever did anything harsh like that without explanation (Monarchia).
What GW fluff 'tells' us and what GW fluff 'shows' us are often very different. They tell us the Custodes are these enlightened, superhumanly intelligent warrior-scholars who, alone in the Imperium, still hold to the Emperor's original ideals; but what GW writers show us, pretty consistently, are a bunch of arrogant, intolerant, hyper-aggressive douchebags.
It might be that the first is just how the Custodes themselves think they are, while the second is the truth.
Or it might just be that GW fluff is mostly written by incompetent hacks who lack the ability to write characters who aren't arrogant, intolerant, hyper-aggressive douchebags.
The story made a nice read with my morning coffee, not the best story but nowhere near the worst story I've read from GW (Some of us still haven't forgotten C.S Goto)
I've always liked the fact the Custodes range personality wise as they're made as individuals first and foremost. This was a more extreme example but like I said, I just treat this as popcorn reading. I do like the animosity Custodes have against marines, I wish internal feelings/discussions amongst the Custodes was explored more so we can learn the range of feelings against Astartes
alextroy wrote: You guys have a much nicer image of the Custodes than I do. It is right there in the story, they were "confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis" but the Inquisition. The most serious charge of the inquisition for which the penalty is death, the charge for this consorting with or under the influence of daemons, practicing witchcraft, and heresy against the Emperor.
He demanded their surrender and was even nice enough to tell them twice before executing someone who failed to comply with his order to surrender.
But i guess that awesome Custodes training and gene craft should have stopped him from being so hasty, even after 10K years watching over the Emperor entombed in the Golden Throne where he was put by the traitor primarchs and their traitor Astartes. 10K years of watching the Imperium descend into a mockery of the Imperial Truth. And then being scolded by the Emperor's returned son for hiding behind the walls of the Imperial place all those millennia instead of helping preserve the Imperium.
Yeah, that definitely should have stayed his hand. He definitely should have listened to what the confirmed traitors had to say in their defense before they laid down their arms. It's not like the Empreror ever did anything harsh like that without explanation (Monarchia).
The problem is they are greyshields though, so they are not tainted by the chapter. The Custodes were right to give them a chance as they had not officially joined any chapter (otherwise they would not be greyshields).
However, when the primaris sided with their brethren (that they had not met) then they were also heretics at that immediate point, and when they ordered to capture the fleet, they were absolutely gone.
To be fair, I think it's an interesting story but poor writing. The greyshields would not necessarily feel such tight connections with a chapter they have not even met yet. Additionally, they may not even share the same geneseed as the parent chapter, they would most likely have the geneseed of the original legion the parent chapter were created from...
Weird story, but the greyshields were not traitors like the parent chapter until they acted in that story. Arguably the Custodes going straight to defcon 1 didn't help matters, Astartes are made to fight and be aggressive, they are going to react when threatened.
Those Primaris didnt even go traitor particularly quickly compared to classic, golden-age 40K stories with similar transformations such as the Wolf Falls, etc..
I tried to be as specific as possible, but since you glossed over it and instead focused on the custodes’s actions (fairly predictable) or me thinking he was “too nice” (Not really, Custodes are highly arrogant and have plenty of their own biases and indoctrination), I’ll try again to point out the issue:
You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’
These lines, near when the Shield-Captain begins his interactions, show him buying into imperial cult thinking and colours the rest of the interaction as a result.
It pretty much becomes a standard story of an inquisitor or commissar being a millimetre from executing people for a perceived, paranoid connection relating to his sense of religious fervour. (Then of course going through with it when his hair trigger is predictably set off second set later).
The issue is not the custodian provoking executing the marines for some unfair reason, but the failure to frame this distinctly, to have him act like an atheistic pursuant of the imperial truth. An arrogant “philosopher king” with a monstrous ego and unlimited mandate who speaks with the “word” of a coma patient. A man with paranoia not in religious terms, but in terms of hypervigilance against anything that could hurt his beloved master.
Certainly there might be some pleasant custodes the same way there are pleasant marines, but if this guy is a complete jerk he should be a custodes-flavoured jerk.
Off the top of my head one fairly easy way to do that might be to have him order them to immediately scrub all traces of treasonous heraldry from their armour, then kick into high gear paranoia when they show reluctance, the story following the same beats as the original from then on.
To be fair, I think it's an interesting story but poor writing. The greyshields would not necessarily feel such tight connections with a chapter they have not even met yet. Additionally, they may not even share the same geneseed as the parent chapter, they would most likely have the geneseed of the original legion the parent chapter were created from...
Maybe the Greyshields would have already learned about the Chapter they were supposed to join, through documents, recordings, etc..., and the Custodes (on top of an already existing prejudice against Astartes) thought they had been tainted in some fashion already by such association or exposure to whatever the Brazen Drakes' ideology is.
These lines, near when the Shield-Captain begins his interactions, show him buying into imperial cult thinking and colours the rest of the interaction as a result.
Except the word 'heresy' was already being used to mean 'treason against the Emperor' back when the Emperor was walking around and worshipping him as a god was illegal (see, for example, damn near every HH novel). It did not always have a religious connotation (either in the 30/40K setting or in our own history), and obviously the Custodes are still using it in its original sense.
Same with the term 'faithful servants'. The motto 'Semper Fidelis' does not mean all US Marines have to be religious. Faithfulness does not imply religiosity.
Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.
Why? They expanded the marine range with new vanguard and devastator marines only to launch primaris shortly after. It's perfect for GW, they get to pull the same move twice (I don't say trick, because I really don't think anything they do should be a surprise if folks pay attention) sell an updated kit, then tack on a new new kit. They gotta keep making models after all.
These lines, near when the Shield-Captain begins his interactions, show him buying into imperial cult thinking and colours the rest of the interaction as a result.
Except the word 'heresy' was already being used to mean 'treason against the Emperor' back when the Emperor was walking around and worshipping him as a god was illegal (see, for example, damn near every HH novel). It did not always have a religious connotation (either in the 30/40K setting or in our own history), and obviously the Custodes are still using it in its original sense.
Same with the term 'faithful servants'. The motto 'Semper Fidelis' does not mean all US Marines have to be religious. Faithfulness does not imply religiosity.
Is there a reason you’re skimming out the “You have no right to look at or speak to imperial citizens” rhetoric? That’s absolutely tarring them as disgusting and tainted on a religious level for.... being earmarked as reinforcements for traitors the custodian is well aware they’ve never met?
It doesn’t quite gel. His information on this matter is fairly absolute, and he doesn’t have the excuse of imperial cult thinking to leap to a bizzare soul deep taint by vague association narrative.
Like I said, you could fix this easily, in but a small edit, by making the shield captain be performing a security formality until kicked into paranoia by the marine captain’s moment of sympathy for the traitors.
Doubt that's whats happening because of the updated csm kit.
Why? They expanded the marine range with new vanguard and devastator marines only to launch primaris shortly after. It's perfect for GW, they get to pull the same move twice (I don't say trick, because I really don't think anything they do should be a surprise if folks pay attention) sell an updated kit, then tack on a new new kit. They gotta keep making models after all.
Because people are heavily entrenched in the primaris as replacement narrative and would consider chaos primaris as an attempt to flush chaos marines down the drain.
These lines, near when the Shield-Captain begins his interactions, show him buying into imperial cult thinking and colours the rest of the interaction as a result.
Except the word 'heresy' was already being used to mean 'treason against the Emperor' back when the Emperor was walking around and worshipping him as a god was illegal (see, for example, damn near every HH novel). It did not always have a religious connotation (either in the 30/40K setting or in our own history), and obviously the Custodes are still using it in its original sense.
Same with the term 'faithful servants'. The motto 'Semper Fidelis' does not mean all US Marines have to be religious. Faithfulness does not imply religiosity.
Is there a reason you’re skimming out the “You have no right to look at or speak to imperial citizens” rhetoric? That’s absolutely tarring them as disgusting and tainted on a religious level for.... being earmarked as reinforcements for traitors the custodian is well aware they’ve never met?
It doesn’t quite gel. His information on this matter is fairly absolute, and he doesn’t have the excuse of imperial cult thinking to leap to a bizzare soul deep taint by vague association narrative.
Like I said, you could fix this easily, in but a small edit, by making the shield captain be performing a security formality until kicked into paranoia by the marine captain’s moment of sympathy for the traitors.
They guy had an heavy bias against marines. He was just looking for a good reason to kill them, and was offered one a silver plate.
OT all the stories so far included renegade marines. Even the one in Bile story says that he forfeited his chapter... coincidence?
changemod wrote: “You have no right to look at or speak to imperial citizens” rhetoric? That’s absolutely tarring them as disgusting and tainted on a religious level for.... being earmarked as reinforcements for traitors the custodian is well aware they’ve never met?
Why do you keep conflating 'paranoid, dogmatic and irrational' with 'religious'? Many real-world secular/atheist regimes (Juche North Korea, France during La Terreur, Stalin's USSR, to name but three) have had fanatical adherents who could have spoken and acted exactly like the Custodes in the story. And the concept of traitors being 'unpersons' who are not fit to look at or speak to loyal citizens is, if anything, more characteristic of such secular/atheist regimes than it is of theocracies. There's nothing necessarily 'religious' about any of the things you've identified.
I think this story has blown out of proportion because it was primaris marines who were killed.
Story could of been better written but its not *bad*, Custodes are not astartes biggest fans on the best of days and he gave them TWO, two whole chances to comply. That's more than a guardsmen would ever get from a commissar.
Is the premise wacky? Yep. Is 40k wackier and stupider things happen? Literally all the damn time.
Let's not blow this out of proportion, for all we know this is a custode who was on perspero gunning down marines left, right and centre so this may not be out of this particular custodies norm to handle Astartes.
I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.
I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?
I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.
cuda1179 wrote: I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.
I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?
I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.
BIle is capable of making regular humans into his new man, which are capable off kiling marines and operate in packs for that aswell as beeing gifted inteligence and strength.
If he'd improve marines, i'd asume atleast lorewise, depending on how much he want's to waste, somewhere between a primaris and custodes would be possible.
In game i rekon it will just be a trait rolling on a d3 or 6 for a random buff.
cuda1179 wrote: I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.
I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?
I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.
In 6th, "Enhanced Warriors" gained Fearless & +1S. In 8th it's a D3 roll for either +1S, +1T or +1A. Hopefully it'll get better with his new rules.
cuda1179 wrote: I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.
I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?
I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.
In 6th, "Enhanced Warriors" gained Fearless & +1S. In 8th it's a D3 roll for either +1S, +1T or +1A. Hopefully it'll get better with his new rules.
cuda1179 wrote: I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.
I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?
I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.
In 6th, "Enhanced Warriors" gained Fearless & +1S. In 8th it's a D3 roll for either +1S, +1T or +1A. Hopefully it'll get better with his new rules.
Gotta love Randumb!
everything but that again, Heck even allow points for upgrades but not randumb...
cuda1179 wrote: I hate to both change the subject, and wishlist, but I was thinking about Fabius Bile.
I know this is stupid, but if he does in fact have a way of creating "enhanced Marines", I wonder how good they'd be. Between a marine and Primaris? Between Primaris and Custodes?
I have been itching for a reason to convert up a unit of Thunder Warriors for the better part of a decade. I think having a way to make an army of them, even if it's only counts-as, would be pretty fun.
In 6th, "Enhanced Warriors" gained Fearless & +1S. In 8th it's a D3 roll for either +1S, +1T or +1A. Hopefully it'll get better with his new rules.
Gotta love Randumb!
everything but that again, Heck even allow points for upgrades but not randumb...
In 2nd, his "Enhanced Warriors" were Chaos marines with +1 M, S, T, A, Immune to Fear and Terror.
Not Online!!! wrote: Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.
With guns! I like it!
You're not the only one. If that was a unit currently (especially if they're troops, however unlikely) I think people all over would be starting a new chaos army.
Not Online!!! wrote: Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.
No, Chaos should be chaotic. If anything, the new Bile should be more random. Roll a D3, and randomly select that many units in your army. Roll a D3 for either S+1, A+1, or T+1
Not Online!!! wrote: Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.
With guns! I like it!
You're not the only one. If that was a unit currently (especially if they're troops, however unlikely) I think people all over would be starting a new chaos army.
Unfortunately you had to take Fabius as your Warlord (or whatever, I'm not a player) to get this perk. Each marine was +5 pts, and Fabius had a truly shaky profile (every stat, literally every one, was D3, or D6, or D3, or D3+3, etc etc). I'm not sure I saw many Batreps in the 90s with Fabius as the main guy!
Not Online!!! wrote: Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.
No, Chaos should be chaotic. If anything, the new Bile should be more random. Roll a D3, and randomly select that many units in your army. Roll a D3 for either S+1, A+1, or T+1
FLUFFY AND SUPER POWERFUL
Needs more D66 tables to be true to the faction's core.
Not Online!!! wrote: Well, that would Turn then basically into reliable Budget possessed.
No, Chaos should be chaotic. If anything, the new Bile should be more random. Roll a D3, and randomly select that many units in your army. Roll a D3 for either S+1, A+1, or T+1
FLUFFY AND SUPER POWERFUL
Needs more D66 tables to be true to the faction's core.
Bring back the old table for boons, kick out spawndom and daemonhood result, applay instead of a trait effect to whole unit, result is = Profit.
Heck could even allow for a stratagem to fix one dice
JWBS wrote: Is 40K literally just "Buy a strat so that all your shots hit and also wound" now?
A lot of it's also "The rules for this unit aren't very good, but rather than fix them here's a strat that should just be a special rule to make it better!".
JWBS wrote: Is 40K literally just "Buy a strat so that all your shots hit and also wound" now?
A lot of it's also "The rules for this unit aren't very good, but rather than fix them here's a strat that should just be a special rule to make it better!".
you forgot the mandatory (for some factions) HQ's and Elite charachters.
In the Adeptus Custodes Codex ist says on page 20:
"The Adeptus Custodes operate as a military force,a gathering of champions each of whom possesses unassailable authority over virtually any other organisation in the Imperium. Conversely, no Imperial agent can give a Custodian orders. Even such worthies as the High Lords of Terra and Lord Commander Guilliman are able only to request – not demand – their aid."
Not sure how I feel about Evesor being 100% raging Khornate-style rather than very dedicated terror troop more Night Lord style.
Also I don't get why GW keeps pushing for the concept of Execution force when it really doesn't make sense, with each assassin's temple method being so different, and them not complementing each others that much. Also sending a Culexus to kill a non-psyker? Just why??
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Not sure how I feel about Evesor being 100% raging Khornate-style rather than very dedicated terror troop more Night Lord style.
Also I don't get why GW keeps pushing for the concept of Execution force when it really doesn't make sense, with each assassin's temple method being so different, and them not complementing each others that much. Also sending a Culexus to kill a non-psyker? Just why??
They are pushing this concept because it translates from their sales front. Assassins are part of the "Officio Assassinorum" faction and lore/rules are sales vehicles first and foremost. GW wants you to buy all four assassins for 100 bucks, so you get additional benefits using them together and it's also why they are being represented this way in current lore.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Not sure how I feel about Evesor being 100% raging Khornate-style rather than very dedicated terror troop more Night Lord style.
Also I don't get why GW keeps pushing for the concept of Execution force when it really doesn't make sense, with each assassin's temple method being so different, and them not complementing each others that much. Also sending a Culexus to kill a non-psyker? Just why??
Probably its more of a tradition thing, and remember: an assassin is still an assassin. At Mu 'galatha bay the culexus was the only one who actually achieved something, aka killing Aun'va, despite being apparently useless considering the oppont (Tau).
Makes me wonder what did the chapter master do to cause such a response. Such an action require the high lords consent.
Definitely liked the Culexus story the most. We also don't know if the Brazen Drakes CM has latent psychic abilities, or that they want the Culexus to get past a know psyker without being detected to gain access to the CM.
I went back and checked and guess where also i found the name Corian? In the first story. I guess Kaslyn (who we were told was the chapter master in consequences) killed himself when he started manifesting psychic powers. Then Corian becomed the new chapter master, and decided to rebel. Some weren't ok, so fighting started.
Considering its possibly a whole chapter of psykers, the culexus will be probably pretty usefull. It was going to be deployed aniway, i mean if you do it against Tau... its probably more of a formality or more of a "just in case there's something we didn't know of".
Culexus aren't just useful against Psykers. Remember that their nature can affect non-psykers too, it just isn't as big of a deal. Making someone uneasy or panicky might seem less than useful...until you realize that he's already potentially dodging through bullets, etc.
Those 4 Assassins really should be operating independently of each other since their methods are so different.
Also deployment of 4 Assassins is an extraordinary deployment of very limited resources. Huron didn't get any assigned to take him out AFAIK.
There shouldn't be enough Assassins to go around for every rebel leader.
FWIW, I suspect the Assassins will fail, if for no other reason than if they succeed then there will be no big conflict and character confrontation/duel.
An execution force does not necessarily all go after the same target. 3 of the Assassins might function as metaphorical lock picks to give the 4th the opportunity to take out the target.
Also, that is exactly how Eversors have traditionally being in the fluff, absolute murder whirlwinds that get pointed in a direction and let go. The only major conflicting fluff in regards to that story was that an Eversor would have the information uploaded to them during flight from the drop pod as they awake, as you really don't want one awake on a ship in a closed location, strapped up with restraints or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally, for the purpose of an execution force, I've always thought it should open up some cool special rules or even strats to show the other two temples.
A D3 mortal wound strat on a character of your choice to show an venenum has pre-poisoned.
Also, why on earth is a Vanus not conducting the operations of the execution force from orbit?
I do think they are doing the whole execution force a bit too much. Normally a single assassin is already a significant investment of resources, an entire team is pretty much aimed at extremely high value targets like Abbadon himself or equivalent Black Crusade warlords. The Brazen Drakes CM doesn't seem to warrant this level of attention, and I feel like more often than not, execution teams seem to fail (looking at you Agrellan Campaign) which just undercuts the threat the Officio Assassinorum poses as a whole.
Kanluwen wrote: When you have a Chapter Master going potentially renegade, that seems like a Big Deal.
I mean, who here remembers a little tiff called The Badab War starting with a Chapter Master going potentially renegade?
I don't know if that really proves your point though, since The Badab War was on a much larger scale that involved 3 Chapters effectively going rogue and yet there were no assassins that were sent to deal with the problem. So why would a single chapter that seems to be in the midst of a chapter civil war require a full on execution squad?
Iracundus wrote: Those 4 Assassins really should be operating independently of each other since their methods are so different.
Also deployment of 4 Assassins is an extraordinary deployment of very limited resources. Huron didn't get any assigned to take him out AFAIK.
There shouldn't be enough Assassins to go around for every rebel leader.
FWIW, I suspect the Assassins will fail, if for no other reason than if they succeed then there will be no big conflict and character confrontation/duel.
At this point I expect several of the assassins to kill each other.
Or the story never get to the point of conflict or confrontation...
Kanluwen wrote: When you have a Chapter Master going potentially renegade, that seems like a Big Deal.
I mean, who here remembers a little tiff called The Badab War starting with a Chapter Master going potentially renegade?
I don't know if that really proves your point though, since The Badab War was on a much larger scale that involved 3 Chapters effectively going rogue and yet there were no assassins that were sent to deal with the problem. So why would a single chapter that seems to be in the midst of a chapter civil war require a full on execution squad?
The Badab War didn't start out as '3 Chapters effectively going rogue'. It started with the Astral Claws, then others got involved on their side.
Kanluwen wrote: When you have a Chapter Master going potentially renegade, that seems like a Big Deal.
I mean, who here remembers a little tiff called The Badab War starting with a Chapter Master going potentially renegade?
I don't know if that really proves your point though, since The Badab War was on a much larger scale that involved 3 Chapters effectively going rogue and yet there were no assassins that were sent to deal with the problem. So why would a single chapter that seems to be in the midst of a chapter civil war require a full on execution squad?
The Badab War didn't start out as '3 Chapters effectively going rogue'. It started with the Astral Claws, then others got involved on their side.
you also can't say for certain Assassins weren't deployed.
Kanluwen wrote: Culexus aren't just useful against Psykers. Remember that their nature can affect non-psykers too, it just isn't as big of a deal. Making someone uneasy or panicky might seem less than useful...until you realize that he's already potentially dodging through bullets, etc.
Yeah also, isn't he INVISIBLE? Like, people cannot see him. That would seem to make him kind of an ideal candidate for "assassin" regardless of what you arm him with. and the great thing is, he is invisible and can wear clothes/a funny hat, so presumably his invisibility isn't limited to his body, organs, toenails etc.
Iracundus wrote: Those 4 Assassins really should be operating independently of each other since their methods are so different.
Also deployment of 4 Assassins is an extraordinary deployment of very limited resources. Huron didn't get any assigned to take him out AFAIK.
There shouldn't be enough Assassins to go around for every rebel leader.
FWIW, I suspect the Assassins will fail, if for no other reason than if they succeed then there will be no big conflict and character confrontation/duel.
At this point I expect several of the assassins to kill each other.
Or the story never get to the point of conflict or confrontation...
CHAOSASSINS: officio HERETICORUM WHAAAAT?
The betrayal you never expected! Now chaos armies can field the Callinister Chaossassin, the EVILsor Chaossassin, the Killexus Chaossassin and the Vindontcare Chaossassin!
Kanluwen wrote: Culexus aren't just useful against Psykers. Remember that their nature can affect non-psykers too, it just isn't as big of a deal. Making someone uneasy or panicky might seem less than useful...until you realize that he's already potentially dodging through bullets, etc.
Yeah also, isn't he INVISIBLE? Like, people cannot see him. That would seem to make him kind of an ideal candidate for "assassin" regardless of what you arm him with. and the great thing is, he is invisible and can wear clothes/a funny hat, so presumably his invisibility isn't limited to his body, organs, toenails etc.
Not really "invisible", but it's been described as kind of being like daemons and the like? People don't want to look at them for too long, their presence confounds/disrupts 'logically' based equipment, etc.
I want to say that Mont'ka had a bit about the Culexus just walking past drones, because the drones couldn't 'understand' what they were seeing so they just refused to see it.
Kanluwen wrote: Culexus aren't just useful against Psykers. Remember that their nature can affect non-psykers too, it just isn't as big of a deal. Making someone uneasy or panicky might seem less than useful...until you realize that he's already potentially dodging through bullets, etc.
Yeah also, isn't he INVISIBLE? Like, people cannot see him. That would seem to make him kind of an ideal candidate for "assassin" regardless of what you arm him with. and the great thing is, he is invisible and can wear clothes/a funny hat, so presumably his invisibility isn't limited to his body, organs, toenails etc.
Not really "invisible", but it's been described as kind of being like daemons and the like? People don't want to look at them for too long, their presence confounds/disrupts 'logically' based equipment, etc.
I want to say that Mont'ka had a bit about the Culexus just walking past drones, because the drones couldn't 'understand' what they were seeing so they just refused to see it.
It caused absolute havoc with the Tau but yeah gun drones cant aim at it, slowing or failing AI functions
I think it was a nice story, loved how they described the 4 different mind sets. Even if I agree an execution force is a bit too much, at least we could enjoy the vision of them all
I want to believe that GW is doing the right thing here : involving Bile means that primaris CSM will not be simple renegate primaris but rather heavily modified primaris, that could fit a CSM list in a elite or heavy slot for exemple (not as troops, as intelligent as Bile, he is only one man).
It hadn't occurred to me until just now, but given that these stories have been setting up the alibis for all of the players in WotS, what are the chances that all CSM get out of this are chapter traits to run a Bronze Drakes warband...
I mean, they do seem to be a focal point of this book's narrative and Bile did just ditch his last band of mooks to get blasted by the Death Guard.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah also, isn't he INVISIBLE? Like, people cannot see him. That would seem to make him kind of an ideal candidate for "assassin" regardless of what you arm him with. and the great thing is, he is invisible and can wear clothes/a funny hat, so presumably his invisibility isn't limited to his body, organs, toenails etc.
Only one small drawback: only invisible to daemons, and he cannot assassinate them proper, just send them back in the warp. Soooo.... yeah, better used against psykers.
This was a chapter that was going rogue because everyone was becoming psychic - Culexus makes perfect sense here. And to be fair, whilst the Evesor has always been my least favourite, they've always been the "make an example, living WMD" response. To be honest I've warmed to them once I've realised that perhaps there are some situations where you can't use a marine and need to send a Doomguy instead.
Plus they teamed up with Bile, and potentially have Primaris reinforcements, the first of the 'perfected' new marines to fall. I reckon that gets you pushed up the agenda pretty damn quick.
Kanluwen wrote: When you have a Chapter Master going potentially renegade, that seems like a Big Deal.
I mean, who here remembers a little tiff called The Badab War starting with a Chapter Master going potentially renegade?
That was a Chapter Master who commanded oversector fleet, multiple space marine chapters, hundreds of IG and mercenary regiments, and a mini-legion of his own.
Guess what, they never sent ever one assassin after him. Must have been less important than this literally who with a couple of SM companies to his name
Kanluwen wrote: Making someone uneasy or panicky might seem less than useful...
If only space marines, I don't know, knew no fear or something...
But I guess this Emperor guy who proclaimed this had no idea how psychic powers or psychology work, after all, it's not like he had his private army of blanks or assassins to test SM with...
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah also, isn't he INVISIBLE? Like, people cannot see him. That would seem to make him kind of an ideal candidate for "assassin" regardless of what you arm him with. and the great thing is, he is invisible and can wear clothes/a funny hat, so presumably his invisibility isn't limited to his body, organs, toenails etc.
Only one small drawback: only invisible to daemons, and he cannot assassinate them proper, just send them back in the warp. Soooo.... yeah, better used against psykers.
Sorry, I was thinking of the Etherium, which just confuses and disorients everyone. As represented by his only hit on 6s rule.
Well even though we've never heard of the Brazen Drakes we don't know how important they are/were in their own sector of space,
we know little or nothing of so much of the 40K Galaxy they could be in a similar or stronger position to the Astral Claws before the Badab wars kicked off
or
maybe the alternative was the much needed custodians pulling out of a whole load of important missions across the imperium to come and help of their mate to smash the traitors. Nobody can order them to stay put to avoid messing up Guillimans plans, but if they sent out a full 4 pack of assasins they might feel it's a guaranteed kill and stay put
It is disappointing if all he has to show for his ten millennia of research for improving space marines is that stupid random chart. Especially now that the primaris exist it makes him look like an utter joke.
Crimson wrote: It is disappointing if all he has to show for his ten millennia of research for improving space marines is that stupid random chart. Especially now that the primaris exist it makes him look like an utter joke.
considering he does that villy nilly in the field?
Also his main focus were the new man and not astartes?
"If Fabius Bile is in a detachment, you can choose to make it a Creations of Bile detachment. If you do so, Fabius Bile gains the Creations of Bile keyword, and all units in the detachment replace the <Legion> keyword with Creations of Bile. After deployment, but before the first Battle Round begins, you can roll once on the Enhanced Warrior table for each Creations of Bile unit in your army that isn't a Vehicle, Daemon, or Fabius Bile himself. If you do so, that unit also suffers D3 mortal wounds."
...to be 100% clear this isn't a rumour; it's just humour.
Latro_ wrote: twitch feed today said he fabs will have legion trait, with rules like black legion etc
Did they? The stream crashed for me before the end. Wonder if it will be a "9th edition style" trait that gives extra bonuses for going mono faction and affects all your army or more like what most of the legions have now, not very useful and only affects infantry, dreads, and bikers.
alextroy wrote: Actually, he allows you to adjust the d3 roll up or down 1. Not bad, since it means you have a 100% chance of giving the squad +1 Toughness.
Different strokes for different folks. I saw it as a guaranteed +1 attack or strength.
alextroy wrote: Actually, he allows you to adjust the d3 roll up or down 1. Not bad, since it means you have a 100% chance of giving the squad +1 Toughness.
Different strokes for different folks. I saw it as a guaranteed +1 attack or strength.
Most importantly, it's a guaranteed choice between better resilience, or better close combat. Which way you'll be better at close combat is in question, but it's always between the two, which is fantastically better than before. If you need a specific close combat boost, you also have a 66.6% chance of getting it (89% with a command reroll).
Also his main focus were the new man and not astartes?
So can I field these new men on the battlefield?
They did mention his Creations of Bile army and that we'd see it later this week. So, maybe?
Nope not that interesting - its just some sub faction rules for Chaos Marines by the look of it.... need a proper unit box for New Men and another character.
Lets face it his legion trait is gonna be the same random chart thing but it applies to the entire army from turn 1. Now if they swap dp and hbs getting it and allow cultists to get it like pre faq, that might be fun
Latro_ wrote: Lets face it his legion trait is gonna be the same random chart thing but it applies to the entire army from turn 1. Now if they swap dp and hbs getting it and allow cultists to get it like pre faq, that might be fun
The Charts should tbh only apply to cultists considering fabiuses Goal no, and whilest we are at it , a cultist KIT would be nice to , ya know , exist.
But then again the Black REACH koptas also don't sadly.
I'll be let down if he doesn't have at least 3 random charts to roll on to finally decipher what his creations will do and one of the results should be instantly explode and spread mortal wounds around your own units. Oh that smells like GW right there.
I feel that Fabius needs more buffs to be usable. He doesn't have an invul save, and its not like his melee is really that awesome. So, he is mostly a buffer character. And yet, he doesn't even have an aura...
Guess he is more of a thematic kind of character ...
AngryAngel80 wrote: I'll be let down if he doesn't have at least 3 random charts to roll on to finally decipher what his creations will do and one of the results should be instantly explode and spread mortal wounds around your own units. Oh that smells like GW right there.
I would probably set right out to make a Bile army were that the case, sounds pretty dam fun(ny).
Model is cool. Special rules are gimicky but... ok. The discussion above is disappointing, as if I am listening to kids outside of the comics and games store opening CCG packets crying that they didn’t get the instakill game winner, again, and will have to wait until mom gives them more pocket money to try again.
The article did say to pick up some chaos marines as it mentioned his special dudes, so it’s not out of the question that the “roll on the chart for everyone” humor is actually spot on.
The bigger deal is a) what keywords his “blessing” affects (Chaos space marines is pretty broad) and b) if you can cast it multiple times on the same units. Cause then you could feed/grow a single death star that jumps out on turn 4 with +3 attacks and +1 strength.
Nicorex wrote: Does anyone have the promo/leaked pic of Fabius from a few months back? I could have sworn he had 2 assistants in that one.
The model has only ever been shown with one assistant. I remember when he was first revealed people saying they wished he had the other assistant from the art too.
I just don't get why, in the fiction of Warhammer 40,000, every character whose thing is that they're a scientist who modifies their guys using science and technology, they all roll on random tables, but every time a Wizard calls upon the energies of hell to provide a boost to units through magic, THAT's almost always a reliable, predictable buff.
Seriously, Sczeras, Bile, the GSC Biophagus, Admech stuff...pretty much only Urien Rakarth is sitting over in the corner going "Guys? Guys, what the feth are you doing, I'm just going to make my stuff extra tough and strong, why are you grafting random gak onto your troops mid-battle?"
the_scotsman wrote: I just don't get why, in the fiction of Warhammer 40,000, every character whose thing is that they're a scientist who modifies their guys using science and technology, they all roll on random tables, but every time a Wizard calls upon the energies of hell to provide a boost to units through magic, THAT's almost always a reliable, predictable buff.
Seriously, Sczeras, Bile, the GSC Biophagus, Admech stuff...pretty much only Urien Rakarth is sitting over in the corner going "Guys? Guys, what the feth are you doing, I'm just going to make my stuff extra tough and strong, why are you grafting random gak onto your troops mid-battle?"
the_scotsman wrote: I just don't get why, in the fiction of Warhammer 40,000, every character whose thing is that they're a scientist who modifies their guys using science and technology, they all roll on random tables, but every time a Wizard calls upon the energies of hell to provide a boost to units through magic, THAT's almost always a reliable, predictable buff.
Seriously, Sczeras, Bile, the GSC Biophagus, Admech stuff...pretty much only Urien Rakarth is sitting over in the corner going "Guys? Guys, what the feth are you doing, I'm just going to make my stuff extra tough and strong, why are you grafting random gak onto your troops mid-battle?"
That's because Urien knows his stuff and has probably done his experiments for a dozen millenias longer than most of them.
the_scotsman wrote: I just don't get why, in the fiction of Warhammer 40,000, every character whose thing is that they're a scientist who modifies their guys using science and technology, they all roll on random tables, but every time a Wizard calls upon the energies of hell to provide a boost to units through magic, THAT's almost always a reliable, predictable buff.
Seriously, Sczeras, Bile, the GSC Biophagus, Admech stuff...pretty much only Urien Rakarth is sitting over in the corner going "Guys? Guys, what the feth are you doing, I'm just going to make my stuff extra tough and strong, why are you grafting random gak onto your troops mid-battle?"
That's because Urien knows his stuff and has probably done his experiments for a dozen millenias longer than most of them.
Longer than the necron or the chaos space marine? Really?
or is it just that GW doesn't know how to represent Science-y buffs and modifications as anything other than the WiLd AnD cRaAaAaAaZy MaD sCiEnTiSt trope? and it's never worked and never been fun or interesting to represent that using a buff that's almost always
A) random so that a lot of the time it does nothing
AND
B) worse than non-random buffs you could be getting anyway.
Almost always, you could take Wild N Crazy Fabulous Bill and roll on his randumb table of randumb to get +1S or whatever, or you could take a sorceror who's cheaper, and provides a much stronger buff much more reliably that you get to pick from a big list.
In my opinion, being able to pick three units at deployment and enhance one with +1 strength, another with +1 attack and a third one with +1 toughness (you chose which gets which) would make for a much more interesting character.
the_scotsman wrote: I just don't get why, in the fiction of Warhammer 40,000, every character whose thing is that they're a scientist who modifies their guys using science and technology, they all roll on random tables, but every time a Wizard calls upon the energies of hell to provide a boost to units through magic, THAT's almost always a reliable, predictable buff.
Seriously, Sczeras, Bile, the GSC Biophagus, Admech stuff...pretty much only Urien Rakarth is sitting over in the corner going "Guys? Guys, what the feth are you doing, I'm just going to make my stuff extra tough and strong, why are you grafting random gak onto your troops mid-battle?"
Exalted for Ultimate Truth!
GW seems to think random = fun.
Might be due those d100 charts from Back In The Day?
So seems Death Guard are getting the same treatment that 1KSons got in their PA book, except 7 sets of new factions rather than 9.
If that sounds good, remember the FAQ made it so that the 1KSons can only actually really use one of those nine sets of rules in any given army, so really their update was 8 sets of rules you can't use.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So seems Death Guard are getting the same treatment that 1KSons got in their PA book, except 7 sets of new factions rather than 9.
If that sounds good, remember the FAQ made it so that the 1KSons can only actually really use one of those nine sets of rules in any given army, so really their update was 8 sets of rules you can't use.
Yes, it looks like this is the new Chaos Thing. Instead of getting monofaction bonuses Chaos gets subfaction bonuses - i.e., the ability to not be able to use 8/9ths or 7/8ths (or (n-1)/n where n is your god's favored number) of your rules. This is thematic and fun. And really fills up a book nicely while minimizing the risk of making anything actually good.
The website preview makes it sound like there is no update to the outdated DG legion trait and yet also no regiment-style sub faction rules for the 7 vectorium companies? Would be the first time codex subfactions don't get their own rules, besides the obvious warlord trait / relic / strat.
For the love of the god emperor, can we get some kind of information about the bloody Custodes? I'm chomping at the bit to get information, and nobody seems to know anything about it.
the_scotsman wrote: I just don't get why, in the fiction of Warhammer 40,000, every character whose thing is that they're a scientist who modifies their guys using science and technology, they all roll on random tables, but every time a Wizard calls upon the energies of hell to provide a boost to units through magic, THAT's almost always a reliable, predictable buff.
Seriously, Sczeras, Bile, the GSC Biophagus, Admech stuff...pretty much only Urien Rakarth is sitting over in the corner going "Guys? Guys, what the feth are you doing, I'm just going to make my stuff extra tough and strong, why are you grafting random gak onto your troops mid-battle?"
Exalted for Ultimate Truth!
GW seems to think random = fun.
Might be due those d100 charts from Back In The Day?
I chalk it up to bookkeeping. Wizards have magical quills to write everything down, scientists usually have crappy hand writing like doctors. So when they go back to do the experiment again they can"t follow any notes. Rakarth just carves what he does into the victim/experiment.
Kanluwen wrote: I've always felt like Fabius Bile is less "well-to-do man of science" these days, more "what would amuse me today?"
This. It isn't such that their science is so incompetent that they cannot predict the outcome, it is them going 'let us see what this new formula does...' and testing it in the field. They aren't using their tried-and-true methods, those are disinteresting because they already know what they do. If you aren't going to try out previously untested augmentations then why did you even bother showing up to the battle!? Using known methods? How boorish, not worth my time.
Highlights:
Invulnerable save bubble via Blightbringer only relic.
1 cp for a round of bonus attacks with... plague knives.
1 cp for +6" on shooting with plague weapons. They highlight the Blightspawn and his plague sprayer, but other combos seem more effective, assuming 9th will let you pile up strats (full unit tossing blight grenades at extra range)
Cultists and Poxwalkers are specifically excluded from a lot, though the 1st Company can have deep striking poxwalkers.
Lot of useless garbage. What better way to make someone try and buy an overpriced garbage Character in the form of a relic that doesn't benefit the units that would make it any good? Also YAY you can pretend your Plague Marines have even a decent number of attacks via just one squad for a CP? Utterly ridiculous.
At least Typhus and his dudes can Deep Strike zombies now.
It's not deep strike BTW, it's the one that's limited to table edges, which makes it a lot worse. And why would you even want to deep strike poxwalkers anyway?
It's not deep strike BTW, it's the one that's limited to table edges, which makes it a lot worse. And why would you even want to deep strike poxwalkers anyway?
to put a problem in someone's face, just like da jump can put a shittonne of boys in your face.
Well, at least we do get a pile of relics on top of that.
Personally, I think all these are decent, just the plague knive one made me scratch my head. I guess if I run a blob of 20 bolter marines, it can murder some horde unit, but outside of that?
Should just have been a flat +1A for plague marine units, but I guess they are afraid of dual flails ruining the meta.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The main problem of Typhus was getting somewhere, him and his pox walker retinue just appearing at full strength on my opponent's table edge sounds great.
14" grenade combo or getting that extra 6" on blight launchers when you need it sounds good as well.
Warlord trait is neat for dual talon princes, and strictly better than most of the durability traits we have.
Almost all stratagems are situational, but for an army that so far struggles to get rid of its CP for anything but re-rolls, I'll use anything I can.
It's not deep strike BTW, it's the one that's limited to table edges, which makes it a lot worse. And why would you even want to deep strike poxwalkers anyway?
to put a problem in someone's face, just like da jump can put a shittonne of boys in your face.
Yes but boyz are actually a problem. They can make a charge, and they can actually hurt stuff.
Poxwalkers can't make a charge, and can't actually hurt stuff even if they do.
The whole point of the unit is to shield other stuff in your army. Just seems like a very strange thing to want to deepstrike.
It's not deep strike BTW, it's the one that's limited to table edges, which makes it a lot worse. And why would you even want to deep strike poxwalkers anyway?
to put a problem in someone's face, just like da jump can put a shittonne of boys in your face.
Pretty much. It's Deep Strike Lite but it throws an immediate problem to the opponent since Poxwalkers aren't exactly the easiest thing to kill for the points, on top of them being immune to anything morale related. Chaos can get CP as well pretty easily.
But is it? You have a 30% chance of making the charge, and if you don't, they are slow enough that all the opponent has to do is move away from them and they will *never* make the charge. It's also super easy to screen out table edges even on a 6x4 board...with the new reduced dimensions, it'll be even easier.
I can see it being used if your opponent is careless enough to leave a table edge right behind their army open so you can then use it to force them towards your main force or to waste energy killing the unit. But they'd have to be pretty clumsy to do that, when they know you're planning it as soon as they see you DS the unit.
The sad truth of outflank is that it actually just makes people camp table edges more, when really it ought to punish them for doing it.
In 9th you can also literally outflank with every single unit in the game (though probably not with an automatic entrance on T2 on any board edge), so this seems like another one of those cases of "yeah, we totally designed this with 9th in mind! really! honest! oooo look over there squirrel! "
DG rules sound pretty nice. I already like my Plague Marines and now they get additional help. 5++ bubble, combined with Blight Hauler who gives them cover will make them tough against many weapons to support foot slogging strategies. Hitting with 4 attacks and blades of putrefaction will generate a nice amount of mortals.
Curious what else is in there for us.
New heavy weapon rules mean we'll need a new faction bonus, though.
It's not deep strike BTW, it's the one that's limited to table edges, which makes it a lot worse. And why would you even want to deep strike poxwalkers anyway?
to put a problem in someone's face, just like da jump can put a shittonne of boys in your face.
Yes but boyz are actually a problem. They can make a charge, and they can actually hurt stuff.
Poxwalkers can't make a charge, and can't actually hurt stuff even if they do.
The whole point of the unit is to shield other stuff in your army. Just seems like a very strange thing to want to deepstrike.
I presume the point is to contest an upfield objective that the poxwalkers can't normally shamble to in time.
Objectives generally can't be placed within 9" of board edges either, though. So at best, you're DSing them T2, then shambling onto the objective T3.
But I admit, this is certainly a better call for how to use it than what's been brought up before. There's still the problem of being screened out, but if lots of people in 9th start dropping their screens because they think they don't need them any more, it might have some play.
It will be interesting to see what deathguard can do in the new edition. Increased range plague flamers is interesting, deep striking pox walkers are interesting as well.
Makes me wonder how detachments are gonna work for unlocking things, will they stay the same,
yukishiro1 wrote: But is it? You have a 30% chance of making the charge, and if you don't, they are slow enough that all the opponent has to do is move away from them and they will *never* make the charge. It's also super easy to screen out table edges even on a 6x4 board...with the new reduced dimensions, it'll be even easier.
I can see it being used if your opponent is careless enough to leave a table edge right behind their army open so you can then use it to force them towards your main force or to waste energy killing the unit. But they'd have to be pretty clumsy to do that, when they know you're planning it as soon as they see you DS the unit.
The sad truth of outflank is that it actually just makes people camp table edges more, when really it ought to punish them for doing it.
In 9th you can also literally outflank with every single unit in the game (though probably not with an automatic entrance on T2 on any board edge), so this seems like another one of those cases of "yeah, we totally designed this with 9th in mind! really! honest! oooo look over there squirrel! "
That's a good thing though. Making the opponent camp means you potentially changed their whole deployment Strategy. Plus as I said Poxwalkers aren't that easy to remove for the points either.
iGuy91 wrote: For the love of the god emperor, can we get some kind of information about the bloody Custodes? I'm chomping at the bit to get information, and nobody seems to know anything about it.
This week. They do diferent factions different days. Before saturday GW has leaked what they will leak
iGuy91 wrote: For the love of the god emperor, can we get some kind of information about the bloody Custodes? I'm chomping at the bit to get information, and nobody seems to know anything about it.
This week. They do diferent factions different days. Before saturday GW has leaked what they will leak
Tiberius501 wrote: So are the DG not getting sub-faction traits? I couldn’t see any mention.
No, but they'll get what Thousand Sons got. DG is already a subfaction, their Great Companies will probably be represented by additional Warlord traits and relics as you can see with the Life Eater in the preview.
Galas wrote: A little boring for the faction of Bile.
They couldn't have done it right without new models. Which makes me wonder why they did it at all- this is a pretty predictable 'counts as' list, where you're supposed to pretend that all the weird and wonderful stuff he can do is just marines and possessed with a couple stat bonuses.
Bile's new model is... fine, but there wasn't any reason to wrap an entire book around it if they're going to emphasize the separation between game and fluff.
Galas wrote: A little boring for the faction of Bile.
They couldn't have done it right without new models. Which makes me wonder why they did it at all- this is a pretty predictable 'counts as' list, where you're supposed to pretend that all the weird and wonderful stuff he can do is just marines and possessed with a couple stat bonuses.
Bile's new model is... fine, but there wasn't any reason to wrap an entire book around it if they're going to emphasize the separation between game and fluff.
Sell chaos models who decide to start army around these bonuses
Don't think these rules are bad and there may be some interesting things you can do with them. Can I imagine a world where the basic Chainsword armed CSM is playable? Maybe.
But it seems like if this faction was going to exist, it should have been really focused on the fluff from Bile in the recent books - rather than "he's a mad scientist haha, moving on" from 15-20 years ago. That doesn't seem to be the case, and so feels like a missed opportunity. Its just another suite of buffs in Chaos's ever expanding roster of such things.
Don't think these rules are bad and there may be some interesting things you can do with them. Can I imagine a world where the basic Chainsword armed CSM is playable? Maybe.
But it seems like if this faction was going to exist, it should have been really focused on the fluff from Bile in the recent books - rather than "he's a mad scientist haha, moving on" from 15-20 years ago. That doesn't seem to be the case, and so feels like a missed opportunity. Its just another suite of buffs in Chaos's ever expanding roster of such things.
Aren’t there going to be new rules for “Astartes chainswords” coming out soon? So extra str + whatever this updates are might make close combat CSM more viable
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Aren’t there going to be new rules for “Astartes chainswords” coming out soon? So extra str + whatever this updates are might make close combat CSM more viable
I think Primaris will get "Heavy Chainswords" or something - I wouldn't bet on regular CSM getting the same.
Really its just points in the new world. The way chaos buff stacking sort of works, anything chainsword equipped CSM can do, possessed or berzerkers should be able to do better. If not, those units have problems.
The bile thing is neat that they are branching out a bit, but really who was like, "yo bro, you know what would be awesome? A Fibious Bile faction!" "Yea I know, I totally want that over having any love for renegade factions or having customizable CSM legion traits!"
It just seems really out of the blue, and unnecessary, especially since they did not even give a PA book release to two established factions (Harlies and DW).
Unless the rules are really good (not so far) I think a year from now people won't even remember that there is a Bile faction.
