So on warhammer community you can find a short story for war of the spider that centers around a group of talons of the emperor (custodes and sisters of silence) who are to deliver a group of primaris marines to a chapter as reinforcements and it doesn't go so well....
Spoiler:
so they find out that the chapter to whom they are to deliver the recruits apparently turned traitor and what does the shield captain in charge immediatly do? He accuses and threatens the primaris recruits, who never even had contact to the chapter that had just turned traitor, but apparently they share a geneseed and that makes them traitors too by default.
And when a primaris points this out to the shield captain, what does the golden bananaboy do? He proceeds to shoot him in the face....the custodes kill all the primaris and thats it basically.
So a couple of things here: the custodes are one of the few, if not the only people in the imperium who are educated enough that they can think somewhat critically and not have the intellectual bandwith of a puritan inquisitor. They are warriors, but also philosophers and scholars as evidenced by chris wraights amazing work in watchers of the throne. Now, every custodian is unique, so there can be some fucksticks among them who have colossal sticks up their asses, but the entire situation and the descisionmaking in that shortstory is so moronic, that it goes way beyond just one shield captain being a douchebag. It just makes no sense. Granted the primaris marines accused of being traitors also didn't handle the situation well.
I love the custodes, but apparently they can be gigantic fucksticks for no fething reason.
Also a minor thing in that shortstory, but it bothered me immensely: the shield captain accusing the primaris marines calls them "heretics" and not "traitors", implying that they turned away from the emperor in a religious sense or rejected the dogma of the ecclesiarchy, which a custodian would not give a single feth about. They are the only ones left who know and share the emperors original idea of a secular imperium, even though they know it is no longer achievable.
I know it would probably be impractical for GW, but I think they should have one author handle one faction, codex lore, novels and shortstories, simply for consistency. It is the one thing that I hate most about 40k lore in general. There are so many amazing factions and stories to be told, but there are so many authors writing about the same faction, that you get some atrocious inconsitencies. And I am not talking about charakters within a faction that may have wildly different personalities, but inconsistencies across entire factions and how they are written.
40k is a fantasy setting and therefore they can do basically anything they want with it from a storytelling perspective, but you HAVE to adhere to the rules you set for yourself within your story for anything to matter. Without that consistency there a no stakes (but this is a thing that plagues modern movies aswell, so it might be a trend).
Now in this shortstory in particular I'd have no gripe with the shield captain in charge killing the marines after an argument or after the marines refuse to be detained, maybe he is just a particularly hotheaded shieldcaptain who is especially weary of the astartes, which most custodes still are. But I have a problem with how they chose to portray it in the shortstory. It is not within the realm of a character being particularly aggressive and unreasonable, it goes against how his entire faction is written as a whole.
Quick copy & paste from Twitter (Andy Clark wrote Consequences):
David Wilson @AoZain
Hey @AClark2018, loved "Consequences" on the warcom site. Question: I thought Greyshields would have no direct relation to the new chapter, other then their primarch's geneseed? Why wouldn't they be used to hunt the Drakes and then form a new chapter?
Andy Clark is staying home @AClark2018
Replying to @AoZain
1) Hi very glad that you enjoyed it! To answer your question, I think in this instance it’s a case of ‘the Imperium doesn’t always take the most logical course of action’ where intolerance and mistrust are involved. Also, if you caught Duncan’s recent...
2) ...short ‘Burden of Brotherhood’ on warcom you’ll see there’s a bit more awry than perhaps first meets the eye. Besides which, there’s some major historical mistrust lingering between the Custodes and the Adeptus Astartes, and it’s likely that coloured Tyvar’s judgement. 3) hope that’s helpful
SirGunslinger wrote: I think this is fairly in keeping with the Imperium's whole philosophy of 'better safe and short a few resources than run any danger of being sorry'
It is!
But custodes aren’t representative of the imperium as a whole, they’re the last echo of the emperor’s real vision for the galaxy.
SirGunslinger wrote: I think this is fairly in keeping with the Imperium's whole philosophy of 'better safe and short a few resources than run any danger of being sorry'
It is!
But custodes aren’t representative of the imperium as a whole, they’re the last echo of the emperor’s real vision for the galaxy.
Thank you! My point exactly!
They are the one faction that should know a bit better than immediately taking measures like a puritan inquisitor
SirGunslinger wrote: I think this is fairly in keeping with the Imperium's whole philosophy of 'better safe and short a few resources than run any danger of being sorry'
It is!
But custodes aren’t representative of the imperium as a whole, they’re the last echo of the emperor’s real vision for the galaxy.
Thank you! My point exactly!
They are the one faction that should know a bit better than immediately taking measures like a puritan inquisitor
Except when it comes to Astartes.
At best they believe the Primarchs and the Astartes were mistakes to be tolerated.
At worst, they'd take every chance they could to purge any chapter they could, knowing they could never truly be loyal the way they, the Custodes, could be.
For many Custodes, it is not a matter of if an Astartes will turn traitor, but when.
jareddm wrote: At worst, they'd take every chance they could to purge any chapter they could, knowing they could never truly be loyal the way they, the Custodes, could be.
Which of course would just lead to more turmoil and more Marines going traitor. Personally, I like seeing the Custodes being pulled off their high horse, and can't wait to see them have to face off against whatever Bile is creating from their fallen brothers.
They are verifiably traitor. The Custodes has authority and ask them to disarm. They refuse. Traitors.
I agree with this. I quite liked the story for what it’s worth. Very fitting for the grim dark.
Whether or not the marines were traitors before they were asked to disarm is irrelevant. The were given a legal order to come quietly and they refused that order. From that point on they are traitors.
An innocent man resisting arrest is still guilty of resisting arrest, and a wrongly accused man on the run is still a fugitive.
I think this would be a tough call for the Primaris on the ship. Their Chapter was just accused of heresy and as Captain Gerion states it could be some machination of the enemy. It is interesting how quickly those in the imperium turn on each other.
The Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels illuminated this issue in how Inquisitors view heresy in a constantly evolving way. Its especially illuminating if you finish reading the last book and then start the series again and realize he's essentially hunting the person he becomes.
Jjohnso11 wrote: I think this would be a tough call for the Primaris on the ship. Their Chapter was just accused of heresy and as Captain Gerion states it could be some machination of the enemy. It is interesting how quickly those in the imperium turn on each other.
The Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels illuminated this issue in how Inquisitors view heresy in a constantly evolving way. Its especially illuminating if you finish reading the last book and then start the series again and realize he's essentially hunting the person he becomes.
Yes the arcs are extreme. The books also point out that what's right and wrong is perceived differently from person to person.
Another theme in the grim dark 40k verse is how little value is placed on individual lives. Even space marines, who are rare and valuable, are viewed as way more disposable than how our society values life.
I just read this story and I quite liked it. The Inquisitor reports that the chapter has been sanctioned Hereticus Diabolus Extremis. The astartes in the story somehow think they can talk their way out of the situation. Obviously that does not end well for them. They are even given two warnings. The Imperium is used to dealing with traitors and this situation happens sometimes. We do not know if the astartes in the story actually are traitors or not, we just know their chapter as a whole has turned. This might very well affect the astartes psychologically. The only logical response is to have them stand down untill an inquisitor can handle the situation. The astartes chose not to stand down. Big mistake.
I thought it was a good story overall. My only complaint is that most of the fighting was one sided but most GW fluff pieces tend to be about how good one side is. I feel like this was in line for the custodes. The more radical openly hate space marines and the SoS character thought it was a little extreme. There was a HH short story where a custode and Garro go to inspect a ship with supposedly loyal emperors children on board. The custode doesn’t believe them and ends up killed by a units of white scars who were actually traitors. The custodes are incredibly blind when it comes to fealty to the emperor. For all their abilities they’re too far removed from a normal human. Heck part of the reason Valdor was so good was that he wasn’t openly contemptuous of every other being in the room.
They are verifiably traitor. The Custodes has authority and ask them to disarm. They refuse. Traitors.
I agree with this. I quite liked the story for what it’s worth. Very fitting for the grim dark.
Whether or not the marines were traitors before they were asked to disarm is irrelevant. The were given a legal order to come quietly and they refused that order. From that point on they are traitors.
An innocent man resisting arrest is still guilty of resisting arrest, and a wrongly accused man on the run is still a fugitive.
It’s really tiresome explaining this on an endless loop, but the “is this in character for a custodes?” Question doesn’t centre on him executing them when the situation has devolved. That part is actually entirely irrelevant to the objections.
The issue is that I, and others in my camp, would have liked to see the custodian act in a distinct way from an imperial cult member such as an inquisitor or commissar when making the initial demands that the reinforcements stand down and await investigation. What we got was him acting completely indistinguishable by insisting they were tainted heretics unfit to look at or speak to an imperial citizen.
“Is this in character for a Custodes” is like asking “is this in character for a human”. I’ve never encountered this particular Custodes before, this might very well be in character for this particular Custodes, especially given the established animosity between Custodes and Space Marines.
They are verifiably traitor. The Custodes has authority and ask them to disarm. They refuse. Traitors.
I agree with this. I quite liked the story for what it’s worth. Very fitting for the grim dark.
Whether or not the marines were traitors before they were asked to disarm is irrelevant. The were given a legal order to come quietly and they refused that order. From that point on they are traitors.
An innocent man resisting arrest is still guilty of resisting arrest, and a wrongly accused man on the run is still a fugitive.
It’s really tiresome explaining this on an endless loop, but the “is this in character for a custodes?” Question doesn’t centre on him executing them when the situation has devolved. That part is actually entirely irrelevant to the objections.
The issue is that I, and others in my camp, would have liked to see the custodian act in a distinct way from an imperial cult member such as an inquisitor or commissar when making the initial demands that the reinforcements stand down and await investigation. What we got was him acting completely indistinguishable by insisting they were tainted heretics unfit to look at or speak to an imperial citizen.
I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?
SirGunslinger wrote: I think this is fairly in keeping with the Imperium's whole philosophy of 'better safe and short a few resources than run any danger of being sorry'
It is!
But custodes aren’t representative of the imperium as a whole, they’re the last echo of the emperor’s real vision for the galaxy.
Alternately, they're the oiled up dudes in leather pants that posed around his doorways.
The weird gold super-terminators are just kind of jerks.
Jjohnso11 wrote:
I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?
Realized that there isn't any 'guilt by association' for people who have yet to meet their new unit in any way at all, and have no sympathetic leanings or heretical pamphlets given to them from multiple sectors away.
Investigating why the chapter fell and stopping them has a little more priority than arresting the greyshields that have yet to come in contact with them.
Jjohnso11 wrote: I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?
Realized that there isn't any 'guilt by association' for people who have yet to meet their new unit in any way at all, and have no sympathetic leanings or heretical pamphlets given to them from multiple sectors away. Investigating why the chapter fell and stopping them has a little more priority than arresting the greyshields that have yet to come in contact with them.
If you didn't believe gene seed could be reason for the taint of heresy and not 'guilt by association'; this came out in a previous short story about a Space Marine Chapter who was killing individual Space Marines after they manifested psychic abilities in combat.
The background to the Custodes/Space Marine relationship has more nuance than is being discussed at this point. If it was understood that Space Marines are responsible for the Custodes greatest failure and shame it would bring to light their willingness to kill an entire Chapter at the hint of corruption. There is also an air of supremecy and eliteness to the Custodes and how they look down on the Space Marines since one is directly from the emperor and the other is from easily corrupted offspring of the Emperor.
I really didn't like the story at all. Tyvar created a conflict when really there didn't need to be one, one which quickly escalated, and on a command deck no less. The Grey shields had no part in whatever had transpired, and were completely ignorant of the events themselves. i think its fair to say that captain Gerion was just as shocked as everyone else at what he was seeing,
his protest that they didn't know what had transpired was accurate, as was saying they should find out if there are any loyalists still fighting and assist them (that's a reasonable argument)
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
Then you investigate the reports. maybe the chapter has gone renegade, maybe they haven't, maybe its the alpha legion or another traitor chapter in Brazen drakes colours, maybe they are fighting an uprising and have gotten a bit overzealous, maybe the chapter is split.
If its not what it initially appears, you then have hundreds of astartes at your disposal, and a ship thats not missing parts and members of the crew
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
-From the short story-
‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’
A spasm of anger passed across Gerion’s blunt features, but was swiftly hidden behind his usual guarded mask.
‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’
‘And I am not in the habit of repeating myself,’ Tyvar replied. ‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
Custodes speak with the Emperor's voice and authority. The Primaris were given the chance to disarm and allow the Custodes to investigate.
For an imperium that almost 100% of the time deals in ABSOLUTES and obliterates PLANETS for heresy, this is lenience.
What possible right does a lowly Captain? Not a Chief Librarian, not a Chapter Master, not a High Marshall, have to question such orders. He has none. Let alone the Sergeant who raises his voice and is the first to die.
His reluctance to follow orders means he is naive, like most primaris, and does not understand refusal to back down, will be met with his forces immediate annihilation.
Then he orders his brothers to seize the fleet, and they've set the bed they will lay in, they choose supposedly fallen brothers over the direct orders they've received.
Had they stood down, they'd have been detained, and the fleet would have handled the heretics/renegades, and then maybe, they could have been sent on a penance crusade, since their heresy is only by association. (Yes, people are punished in 40k for heresy by association, let alone having even SEEN heresy and not fallen to it, should it be extreme)
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
-From the short story-
‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’
A spasm of anger passed across Gerion’s blunt features, but was swiftly hidden behind his usual guarded mask.
‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’
‘And I am not in the habit of repeating myself,’ Tyvar replied. ‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
Did you read the short story?
I did.
You are all traitors!
bad way to lead into a discussion, Tyvan also commanded rather than asked, and was coarse and confrontational. Tyvan rapidly escalated the situation, tyvan got lots of people killed. Custodes are supposed to be intelligent, Tyvan is an idiot.
'Captain Gerion, given the circumstances, please could you leave the command deck until we can ascertain what has transpired, it pains me to have to take this measure given that you and your marines obviously had no part in this, i would also ask that you surrender your weapons and confine yourselves to your quarters until further notice. I will brief you and your men once we have fully assessed the situation'
Perfectly reasonable, intelligent, non confrontational situation. gets all the ducks in a row. if gerion complies, no confrontational situation, gray shields in one place, unarmed and unarmoured if they refuse;
'Captain Gerion, i must insist that you follow my lawfully given commands'
now its an order, not a request. if they still refuse, or accept but don't surrender their weapons, take them down
as i said, Tyvan is an idiot, he didn't manage the situation well at all, he caused the fighting on the ship.
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
-From the short story-
‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’
A spasm of anger passed across Gerion’s blunt features, but was swiftly hidden behind his usual guarded mask.
‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’
‘And I am not in the habit of repeating myself,’ Tyvar replied. ‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
Did you read the short story?
I did.
You are all traitors!
bad way to lead into a discussion, Tyvan also commanded rather than asked, and was coarse and confrontational. Tyvan rapidly escalated the situation, tyvan got lots of people killed. Custodes are supposed to be intelligent, Tyvan is an idiot.
'Captain Gerion, given the circumstances, please could you leave the command deck until we can ascertain what has transpired, it pains me to have to take this measure given that you and your marines obviously had no part in this, i would also ask that you surrender your weapons and confine yourselves to your quarters until further notice. I will brief you and your men once we have fully assessed the situation'
Perfectly reasonable, intelligent, non confrontational situation. gets all the ducks in a row. if gerion complies, no confrontational situation, gray shields in one place, unarmed and unarmoured if they refuse;
'Captain Gerion, i must insist that you follow my lawfully given commands'
now its an order, not a request. if they still refuse, or accept but don't surrender their weapons, take them down
as i said, Tyvan is an idiot, he didn't manage the situation well at all, he caused the fighting on the ship.
Wut.
A police officer doesn't politely ask an armed potential threat to disarm themselves and check themselves into prison, they order and command them to using their authority as law enforcement officers. Likewise a military commander does not ask their troops politely to do xyz, he orders and commands them to using their lawful authority.
In the real world, a situation like this would largely play out the same exact way - a superior officer that had cause to question loyalty of a troop for any reason whatsoever (whether it is warranted or not) would not politely ask them to surrender their arms and confine themselves to quarters, they would order them to. If they refused, they would order them to be forcefully disarmed by armsmen, guards, security forces, or what-have-you. If they continued to resist then you get escalation to non-lethal means, followed by lethal means if necessary. The Custodes here, I guess, did jump the gun by jumping to lethality, but thats the grimdark 41st Millennium for you - that action and behavior was 100% on brand for both the Custodes and the Imperium as a whole. To be fair, its not like the Custodes really had anyone that would be reasonably capable of forcefully disarming a squad of Primaris marines, what with them being geneticall engineered superhumans and all, the Custodes is theoeretically the only entity present that is as physically capable as an Astartes, and theres only one of him.
The Shield-Captain has authority in this situation, the marines do not. He is ordering them to follow his commands under the penalty that comes with insubordination and refusal. The marines were insubordinate and they paid the price for it in a way and manner appropriate for the setting.
A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.
The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.
What Tyvar should have done (IMO) is turn to Gerion, inform him that the Brazen drakes appeared to be Trators, some at least, and given the circumstances, ask them to leave the command deck surrender their weapons, and then confine the all the gray shields to quarters. At the same time, alert the rest of the crew to secure vital areas, in case this is a systemic problem with the geneseed and they are traitors.
If they refuse, insist more forcefully, and if they still refuse, then you pull the trigger.
If the gray shields obey, then they are all in one area of the ship, and unarmed, and thus if it comes to having to purge them, its easier, If they don't obey, then they get everything they deserve.
we aren't given enough information to decide whether Tyvar was justified or was an idiot who got a lot of people killed and that he should probably think about taking a conflict management course. so while its established that custodes are badass fighters, i have doubts about their intelligence.
-From the short story-
‘You do not address me, Gerion,’ said Tyvar, his voice cold and hard as adamantine. ‘You do not look at me, nor at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined.’
A spasm of anger passed across Gerion’s blunt features, but was swiftly hidden behind his usual guarded mask.
‘Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned,’ he said. ‘This may be a mistake, some machination of the enemy. We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world. We should aid them, not abandon them! You ask us to condemn our comrades, even ourselves without recourse to proof. I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.’
‘And I am not in the habit of repeating myself,’ Tyvar replied. ‘Disarm. Command your brothers throughout the fleet to do likewise. Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
Did you read the short story?
I did.
You are all traitors!
bad way to lead into a discussion, Tyvan also commanded rather than asked, and was coarse and confrontational. Tyvan rapidly escalated the situation, tyvan got lots of people killed. Custodes are supposed to be intelligent, Tyvan is an idiot.
'Captain Gerion, given the circumstances, please could you leave the command deck until we can ascertain what has transpired, it pains me to have to take this measure given that you and your marines obviously had no part in this, i would also ask that you surrender your weapons and confine yourselves to your quarters until further notice. I will brief you and your men once we have fully assessed the situation'
Perfectly reasonable, intelligent, non confrontational situation. gets all the ducks in a row. if gerion complies, no confrontational situation, gray shields in one place, unarmed and unarmoured if they refuse;
'Captain Gerion, i must insist that you follow my lawfully given commands'
now its an order, not a request. if they still refuse, or accept but don't surrender their weapons, take them down
as i said, Tyvan is an idiot, he didn't manage the situation well at all, he caused the fighting on the ship.
Wut.
A police officer doesn't politely ask an armed potential threat to disarm themselves and check themselves into prison, they order and command them to using their authority as law enforcement officers. Likewise a military commander does not ask their troops politely to do xyz, he orders and commands them to using their lawful authority.
In the real world, a situation like this would largely play out the same exact way - a superior officer that had cause to question loyalty of a troop for any reason whatsoever (whether it is warranted or not) would not politely ask them to surrender their arms and confine themselves to quarters, they would order them to. If they refused, they would order them to be forcefully disarmed by armsmen, guards, security forces, or what-have-you. If they continued to resist then you get escalation to non-lethal means, followed by lethal means if necessary. The Custodes here, I guess, did jump the gun by jumping to lethality, but thats the grimdark 41st Millennium for you - that action and behavior was 100% on brand for both the Custodes and the Imperium as a whole. To be fair, its not like the Custodes really had anyone that would be reasonably capable of forcefully disarming a squad of Primaris marines, what with them being geneticall engineered superhumans and all, the Custodes is theoeretically the only entity present that is as physically capable as an Astartes, and theres only one of him.
The Shield-Captain has authority in this situation, the marines do not. He is ordering them to follow his commands under the penalty that comes with insubordination and refusal. The marines were insubordinate and they paid the price for it in a way and manner appropriate for the setting.
I agree it is appropriate for the setting, even the emperors bodyguards are completely incompetent. Yes Tyvar is in command, but i completely disagree with how he executed his authority. Custodes, according to the fluff are highly educated and extremely intelligent. sure they might have little patience for Astartes given the little thing called the heresy, but Tyvar could have worked with Gerion, and rather than immediately think the worst and be threatening and aggressive, use that intelligence and education to good effect. thats just my take, Tyvar is to blame, and the consequences could be the ones he's going to face if he survives.
'
madtankbloke wrote: I agree it is appropriate for the setting, even the emperors bodyguards are completely incompetent. Yes Tyvar is in command, but i completely disagree with how he executed his authority. Custodes, according to the fluff are highly educated and extremely intelligent. sure they might have little patience for Astartes given the little thing called the heresy, but Tyvar could have worked with Gerion, and rather than immediately think the worst and be threatening and aggressive, use that intelligence and education to good effect. thats just my take, Tyvar is to blame, and the consequences could be the ones he's going to face if he survives.
I think the issue stems from the corrupt Chapter and Captain Gerion not directly obeying Tyvar when he was given an order. He should have understood the magnitude of the situation when an entire planet is under duress and with Tyvan forced to formulate a plan to kill the heretics on the planet while also worrying about the reinforcements he just brought to the heretics. I blame the heretics on the planet and not Tyvar and the position he's in- assessing the Space Marines in near proximity to him who have close ties to those corrupt Space Marines on the planet. Captain Gerion already made a damning statement by denying that his Chapter is tainted and trying to transfer the blame to enemy machinations without facts.
Reading history Tyvan understands how ENTIRE LEGIONS became corrupt when their Primarchs turned to Chaos.
It's a weird story. Of all the things to explore, the idea that Custodes expect immediate obedience from Astartes was not what I expected.
Maybe a bit of insight into Tyvar's though process would have helped. How many grey shields are there, could they actually take the fleet, etc. If Tyvar realizes that the primaris could overwhelm them if they got the chance, that changes things quickly.
Polonius wrote: It's a weird story. Of all the things to explore, the idea that Custodes expect immediate obedience from Astartes was not what I expected.
Maybe a bit of insight into Tyvar's though process would have helped. How many grey shields are there, could they actually take the fleet, etc. If Tyvar realizes that the primaris could overwhelm them if they got the chance, that changes things quickly.
I do believe in the story that they state there are 2 battle companies of Primaris in the fleet, but they don't state how many ships are in the fleet, or what other forces are present.
Polonius wrote: It's a weird story. Of all the things to explore, the idea that Custodes expect immediate obedience from Astartes was not what I expected.
Maybe a bit of insight into Tyvar's though process would have helped. How many grey shields are there, could they actually take the fleet, etc. If Tyvar realizes that the primaris could overwhelm them if they got the chance, that changes things quickly.
I do believe in the story that they state there are 2 battle companies of Primaris in the fleet, but they don't state how many ships are in the fleet, or what other forces are present.
right, which is a strong fighting force, right?
I think a more profoundly interesting story would have delved into that, perhaps with the sister of silence, our POV character, guessing what Tygar was thinking, and then realizing herself that they have, say, a dozen custodes and 100 sisters to defend against 200 primaris. While she may be intiially shocked at Tygar's escalation of things, she would quickly realize that he saw the same thing. Make the story about a rumination on duty, and loyalty, and making hard choices, instead of a a quick frame for some hot Primars on Talons action.
madtankbloke wrote: I agree it is appropriate for the setting, even the emperors bodyguards are completely incompetent. Yes Tyvar is in command, but i completely disagree with how he executed his authority. Custodes, according to the fluff are highly educated and extremely intelligent. sure they might have little patience for Astartes given the little thing called the heresy, but Tyvar could have worked with Gerion, and rather than immediately think the worst and be threatening and aggressive, use that intelligence and education to good effect. thats just my take, Tyvar is to blame, and the consequences could be the ones he's going to face if he survives.
I think the issue stems from the corrupt Chapter and Captain Gerion not directly obeying Tyvar when he was given an order. He should have understood the magnitude of the situation when an entire planet is under duress and with Tyvan forced to formulate a plan to kill the heretics on the planet while also worrying about the reinforcements he just brought to the heretics. I blame the heretics on the planet and not Tyvar and the position he's in- assessing the Space Marines in near proximity to him who have close ties to those corrupt Space Marines on the planet. Captain Gerion already made a damning statement by denying that his Chapter is tainted and trying to transfer the blame to enemy machinations without facts.
Reading history Tyvan understands how ENTIRE LEGIONS became corrupt when their Primarchs turned to Chaos.
My understanding is that marines being delivered to chapters will be made up from Awoken Primaris, therefore their template will be from the primarch and chapter the brazen drakes were descended from, and not the brazen drakes themselves, they are not Indoctrinated Primaris, nor are they ascended, otherwise why are they being delivered? the Brazen drakes would already have primaris. If we are going to use 'guilt by association', then Tyvar better declare all the Primaris of that particular lineage surplus to requirements and have them liquidated, along with the first founding chapter the Brazen drakes are descended from, as well as all descendents of that first founding chapter, and why stop there? if one lineage is suspected, kill them all.
up until they are delivered, Gerion and the Primaris have nothing to do with whatever has transpired. My objection isn't that the Brazen Drakes were traitors (they may or may not be, we hardly have sufficient context from the story) but that Tyvar is cast as being more zealous than the most trigger happy commissar. Custodes are supposed to be Philosopher warriors with heightened intelligence and superior education to go with their superior physical capabilities. Tyvar demonstrated neither of those things.
I would really like to see a short story where Gulliman disobeys Maldovar Colquan (the custodian who follows Gulliman around) or does something to anger him, something more than the usual amount of condescension Colquan takes from Gulliman. In response, Colquan pulls his Misericordia on Gulliman. Everyone around them is in shock that someone might kill the Imperial Regent, but the Custodian is so narrowly focused that all that matters is Gulliman's perceived treachery, however small. Gulliman must receive the appropriate threat in response.
catbarf wrote: A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.
The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.
Yup. Seen this in a few places. So many people crying "But muh Primaris!" because they don't seem to understand how the imperium works when their only knowledge of the background is via memes...
catbarf wrote: A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.
The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.
Yup. Seen this in a few places. So many people crying "But muh Primaris!" because they don't seem to understand how the imperium works when their only knowledge of the background is via memes...
and there's this bizzare myth that the custodes have remained super rational. they haven't. the one thing the materials been pretty consistant on is that the cusrtodes have their own issues too. and one of these is a reflexive DISTRUST OF THE ASTARTES
Jjohnso11 wrote:
I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?
Realized that there isn't any 'guilt by association' for people who have yet to meet their new unit in any way at all, and have no sympathetic leanings or heretical pamphlets given to them from multiple sectors away.
Investigating why the chapter fell and stopping them has a little more priority than arresting the greyshields that have yet to come in contact with them.
If you didn't believe gene seed could be reason for the taint of heresy and not 'guilt by association'; this came out in a previous short story about a Space Marine Chapter who was killing individual Space Marines after they manifested psychic abilities in combat.
Given that we don't have any idea who the Brazen Drakes descend from and even if the Greyshields assigned to them come from the same stock... I'm not really sure what the relevance is of a different story about an individual chapter manifesting random psychic powers on regular basis, when their progenitor Legion, whoever they are, never did that. Nor, as far as we know, any other chapter descended from the same geneseed. So... the 'but tainted geneseed' and 'but Primarchs' argument don't really hold any weight.
Modern chapters go bad individually, often not even as a whole. Literally no one turns on the Ultramarines for tainted geneseed when the <Whomever chapter> turns. No first founders got an accusation when the Astral Claws turned, despite the fact that have to share geneseed with someone. There have even been cases where an entire company of a First Founding chapter has gone all chaos traitor, and no one squawks about the Chapter as a whole going bad.
Primarchs aren't around to order the chapters into treachery. Neither situation seems to apply here.
I think that, although maybe clunky in its execution and a bit bereft of context because it's a short short story, it is a welcome tonal shift for 8th.
too much of the brightness of Guilliman and primaris is shining through so at a glance the imperium has lost its darkness. Now we know it hasn't, but it certainly could be mistaken for having lost it.
This story firmly puts that brutality and infighting back in the spotlight. The fact it's shocked and angered people IMO means it's done its job.
I imagine there are also lots of new kids reading this stuff who only know that marines are bad ass and primaris are the best going 'OMG that gold dude is the GOAT with balls of steel for totally killing a marine, I want them!".
Jjohnso11 wrote:
I don't see another way they could have acted in this instance. The custodes are an extension of the Emperors will and treat chaos as something that needs to be completely destroyed. If they suspected someone was tainted they would snuff it out without thought. I guess your camp thinks the custodes would have held Captain Gerion in an embrace and whispered in his ear that everything was going to be alright? What did you expect them to really do in this instance?
Realized that there isn't any 'guilt by association' for people who have yet to meet their new unit in any way at all, and have no sympathetic leanings or heretical pamphlets given to them from multiple sectors away.
Investigating why the chapter fell and stopping them has a little more priority than arresting the greyshields that have yet to come in contact with them.
If you didn't believe gene seed could be reason for the taint of heresy and not 'guilt by association'; this came out in a previous short story about a Space Marine Chapter who was killing individual Space Marines after they manifested psychic abilities in combat.
Given that we don't have any idea who the Brazen Drakes descend from and even if the Greyshields assigned to them come from the same stock... I'm not really sure what the relevance is of a different story about an individual chapter manifesting random psychic powers on regular basis, when their progenitor Legion, whoever they are, never did that. Nor, as far as we know, any other chapter descended from the same geneseed. So... the 'but tainted geneseed' and 'but Primarchs' argument don't really hold any weight.
Modern chapters go bad individually, often not even as a whole. Literally no one turns on the Ultramarines for tainted geneseed when the <Whomever chapter> turns. No first founders got an accusation when the Astral Claws turned, despite the fact that have to share geneseed with someone. There have even been cases where an entire company of a First Founding chapter has gone all chaos traitor, and no one squawks about the Chapter as a whole going bad.
Primarchs aren't around to order the chapters into treachery. Neither situation seems to apply here.
In the eyes of the Imperium, the First Founding chapters have been shown over and over again to be above the taint of their successors, at least broadly. Later founding chapters don't have this kind of protection and likely never could. Just look at poor Astraeos, whose chapter was purged on his actions alone. Or the Doom Legion, who are still on the Inquisition's gak list after the half that went on the Abyssal Crusade turned, and even then they consider themselves having gotten off easy.
catbarf wrote: A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.
The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.
Yup. Seen this in a few places. So many people crying "But muh Primaris!" because they don't seem to understand how the imperium works when their only knowledge of the background is via memes...
and there's this bizzare myth that the custodes have remained super rational. they haven't. the one thing the materials been pretty consistant on is that the cusrtodes have their own issues too. and one of these is a reflexive DISTRUST OF THE ASTARTES
Hellebore wrote:I think that, although maybe clunky in its execution and a bit bereft of context because it's a short short story, it is a welcome tonal shift for 8th.
too much of the brightness of Guilliman and primaris is shining through so at a glance the imperium has lost its darkness. Now we know it hasn't, but it certainly could be mistaken for having lost it.
This story firmly puts that brutality and infighting back in the spotlight. The fact it's shocked and angered people IMO means it's done its job.
I imagine there are also lots of new kids reading this stuff who only know that marines are bad ass and primaris are the best going 'OMG that gold dude is the GOAT with balls of steel for totally killing a marine, I want them!".
Or whatever lingo the fellow kids say...
Yup and yup. The problem is that people are suddenly realizing that their perfect, shiny, golden boys aren't that perfect, shiny, or golden. Remember, these are the same guys who slaughtered the Thunder Warriors without hesitation.
It's like I said in the "Is gw trying to get away from grimdark" thread:
THE GRIMDARK HASN'T GONE ANYWHERE. IT'S BEEN RIGHT HERE ALL ALONG BABY!
jareddm wrote: In the eyes of the Imperium, the First Founding chapters have been shown over and over again to be above the taint of their successors, at least broadly. Later founding chapters don't have this kind of protection and likely never could. Just look at poor Astraeos, whose chapter was purged on his actions alone. Or the Doom Legion, who are still on the Inquisition's gak list after the half that went on the Abyssal Crusade turned, and even then they consider themselves having gotten off easy.
At that point though, you've got to realize that if the Legions turned First Founding are immune to suspicion and later chapters aren't, it has nothing at all to do with the Heresy.
And makes the various Angels hiding away their dirty secrets a complete waste of time and effort.
So i don't think that tracks.
Hellebore wrote:I think that, although maybe clunky in its execution and a bit bereft of context because it's a short short story, it is a welcome tonal shift for 8th.
too much of the brightness of Guilliman and primaris is shining through so at a glance the imperium has lost its darkness. Now we know it hasn't, but it certainly could be mistaken for having lost it.
This story firmly puts that brutality and infighting back in the spotlight. The fact it's shocked and angered people IMO means it's done its job.
Alternately, people who thought Big G and Primaris somehow represented 'brightness' were just wrong. Marines (primaris or not) and primarchs are still just genetically engineered soldiers for mass genocide. That never changed, and there was nothing to suggest it would.
Even if it did, it doesn't make a rather silly edgelord blue-on-blue 'who's the better superman?' fight anything other than lazy writing.
Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.
and it's worth noting the Primaris Marines started trying to make EXCUSES. "maybe it's a trick of the enemy" etc/ that puts them as immediatly suspect as they might be inclined to listen to the traitors and allow themselves to be lured into damnation themselves.
had the primaris captain instead said "Sheild captain, I understand your request but none wish to purge this taint greater then I! we shall cloister ourselves in our quarters, but I ask that you consider allowing us to aide in reaping the emperor's vengence on these traitors" or something. the sheild captain may have been willing to consider it. instead ".. BUT MAYBE THEY'RE INNOCENT.... and no we won;t give you our guns" yeaaaaah
ArcaneHorror wrote: Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.
and it's worth noting the Primaris Marines started trying to make EXCUSES. "maybe it's a trick of the enemy" etc/ that puts them as immediatly suspect as they might be inclined to listen to the traitors and allow themselves to be lured into damnation themselves.
had the primaris captain instead said "Sheild captain, I understand your request but none wish to purge this taint greater then I! we shall cloister ourselves in our quarters, but I ask that you consider allowing us to aide in reaping the emperor's vengence on these traitors" or something. the sheild captain may have been willing to consider it. instead ".. BUT MAYBE THEY'RE INNOCENT.... and no we won;t give you our guns" yeaaaaah
I expect that kind of thing from marines, however the shield captain should have said
"I understand that while you have had no contact with your new parent chapter, the decree is absolute, so we must return you and your men to the lord commander so this can be resolved, I would appreciate your cooperation on this difficult matter"
"what of our brothers on the surface some of them may still be loyal"
"You have fought in the indomitus crusade for 2 centuries and know of the taint of chaos, even loyal your brothers cannot be saved, better that you return with us to seek vengeance for your fallen kin against the arch enemy"
So the shield captain uses reason and diplomacy and not the level of intellect I would expect from a sister zealot or a black templar
"raaaaa you no listen me, me have authority, you heretic, raaa you die now traitor"
catbarf wrote: A lot of people seem to be both surprised and offended by the idea of someone within a paranoid, authoritarian, shoot-first-ask-questions-later fascist theocracy taking actions that seem to be paranoid, authoritarian, and shoot-first-ask-questions-later. Especially when there's millennia of historical bad blood biasing that judgment.
The Emperor wasn't any different, so this kind of behavior is hardly out of character for Custodes.
Yup. Seen this in a few places. So many people crying "But muh Primaris!" because they don't seem to understand how the imperium works when their only knowledge of the background is via memes...
and there's this bizzare myth that the custodes have remained super rational. they haven't. the one thing the materials been pretty consistant on is that the cusrtodes have their own issues too. and one of these is a reflexive DISTRUST OF THE ASTARTES
Hellebore wrote:I think that, although maybe clunky in its execution and a bit bereft of context because it's a short short story, it is a welcome tonal shift for 8th.
too much of the brightness of Guilliman and primaris is shining through so at a glance the imperium has lost its darkness. Now we know it hasn't, but it certainly could be mistaken for having lost it.
This story firmly puts that brutality and infighting back in the spotlight. The fact it's shocked and angered people IMO means it's done its job.
I imagine there are also lots of new kids reading this stuff who only know that marines are bad ass and primaris are the best going 'OMG that gold dude is the GOAT with balls of steel for totally killing a marine, I want them!".
Or whatever lingo the fellow kids say...
Yup and yup. The problem is that people are suddenly realizing that their perfect, shiny, golden boys aren't that perfect, shiny, or golden. Remember, these are the same guys who slaughtered the Thunder Warriors without hesitation.
It's like I said in the "Is gw trying to get away from grimdark" thread:
THE GRIMDARK HASN'T GONE ANYWHERE. IT'S BEEN RIGHT HERE ALL ALONG BABY!
Honesty this is an amazing amount of dismissiveness and putting words in people’s mouths.
For the thousandth time across various threads and platforms: The issue is purely that custodes should, if written well, be pretty distinct from the various imperial cult organisations. That doesn’t mean they should necessarily be less grimdark, or less like jerks, less flawed and biased, or even that this should have ended another way. Just... distinct. It’s bad writing that this Shield Captain isn’t written distinct from an inquisitor, commissar ect In the same position, and could be fixed with as little as a paragraph or two of changes near the start of the fic.
Sniff, Im still havent gotten over what your brothers did 10000 years ago. Whom i havent dealt with for 10k years.
Custodian Tyvar. probably.
Its a good thing he didnt turn up to see just a humie khaos uprising. Brazen Drakes please kill all humans in this fleet.
Custodian Tyvar is a incompetent oaf.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.
and it's worth noting the Primaris Marines started trying to make EXCUSES. "maybe it's a trick of the enemy" etc/ that puts them as immediatly suspect as they might be inclined to listen to the traitors and allow themselves to be lured into damnation themselves.
had the primaris captain instead said "Sheild captain, I understand your request but none wish to purge this taint greater then I! we shall cloister ourselves in our quarters, but I ask that you consider allowing us to aide in reaping the emperor's vengence on these traitors" or something. the sheild captain may have been willing to consider it. instead ".. BUT MAYBE THEY'RE INNOCENT.... and no we won;t give you our guns" yeaaaaah
I expect that kind of thing from marines, however the shield captain should have said
"I understand that while you have had no contact with your new parent chapter, the decree is absolute, so we must return you and your men to the lord commander so this can be resolved, I would appreciate your cooperation on this difficult matter"
"what of our brothers on the surface some of them may still be loyal"
"You have fought in the indomitus crusade for 2 centuries and know of the taint of chaos, even loyal your brothers cannot be saved, better that you return with us to seek vengeance for your fallen kin against the arch enemy"
So the shield captain uses reason and diplomacy and not the level of intellect I would expect from a sister zealot or a black templar
"raaaaa you no listen me, me have authority, you heretic, raaa you die now traitor"
maybe except thats not how the custodes are actually depicted. they're foten depicted as a bit stand offish and prone to "we'll tell you to do this once.. don't test us" with regards to marines. the short story about the blood ravens getting their primaris shipment had the custodes being pretty standoffish too
Yes Custodes are intelligent and educated, but I don't think this translates into emotional intelligence, If fact we know it doesn't as the Custodes have a massive superiority complex and treat any lesser beings with derision. There are many people in the real world who are both educated and intelligent but are abrasive and horrid to be around.
Secondly, the context of this conversation is a soldier giving an order to a subordinate. You don't give an order by saying please could you possibly do this and gosh it was a tough call.
If anything I'd say the primaris marine was out of order here, he disobeyed a direct order twice and questioned the competence of a superior officer in front of the entire command deck.
Funny thing, may be worth considering. Does this feel almost ... book-end-ish to anyone else? Almost like it's setting up a reprise where Tyvar may have to face his own consequences; perhaps even (if the trailer of Fabius digging into what looks like a Custos means anything) dark failings of his own genestock?
I think my only main gripe is that the Primaris Marines are Greyshields.
From Tyvar's perspective, why would Greyshields with no connection to the Chapter be at risk? I understand them not respecting his authority being a crime, but why even ask them to respect his authority anyways?
From Gerion's perspective, why so attached to a Chapter you've literally never met?
This whole story would be so much better without the mention of Greyshields, IMO. Just have it as "these two companies of Brazen Drakes were on crusade, with a Custodes escort, and they've only just come home". That way, their dilemma of "we should trust our Battle Brothers" is way more believable and similarly, the Custodes have WAY more reason to suspect that the contingent of Marines really were traitors, because they've actually had contact with the main Chapter.
Secondly, the context of this conversation is a soldier giving an order to a subordinate. You don't give an order by saying please could you possibly do this and gosh it was a tough call.
If anything I'd say the primaris marine was out of order here, he disobeyed a direct order twice and questioned the competence of a superior officer in front of the entire command deck.
I don’t think the captain’s questions were unreasonable. Contrary to popular belief, military leaders who don’t listen to their subordinates objections tend to do poorly. Ask any lieutenant who doesn’t listen to their platoon sergeant . Also considering that the custodes demand came at gun point, it’s hard to see how it couldn’t have gone wrong. The Imperium’s shoot first, burn it, and the shoot the corpse policy is the real culprit hear.
The custodes were designed to be diplomats and savants 10,000 years prior in a galaxy that was very different. They spent the next 10,000 years basically sulking. It’s hardly surprising that they’d struggle to get along with others. The grudge against the astartes was also at play here. The custodes aren’t infallible, even if they believe otherwise.
While I haven't read this particular story, and in general the Custodes always sounded like they were supposed to generally be brilliantly intelligent, wise, and learned men able to interact with the Emperor as an almost equal (in addition to being mighty warriors), this also does sound like it fits into the general 40k grimdark theme.
That said, GW in general has an atrocious habit, particularly in regards to powerful super soldiers and great leaders, of writing characters that are essentially emotional toddlers, literal manchildren who are ready and willing to throw temper tantrums and resort to violence, even against their peers, at the slightest of pretenses and who carry deep grudges for literal eternity. Far too much of the 40k universe is predicated on genetically engineered super soldiers having the emotional maturity of 5 year olds, that's basically half the setup to the Horus Heresy, and its fair to point how that can wear thin or come off badly.
I don't think that they were unreasonable either, but I can see why the Custode took them as a sign of guilt.
Soldiers being discouraged from using their initiative or questioning commanders orders has been a common feature of many historical armies, in fact I'm currently reading 'Road to Nandikadal' about pre-civil war Sri Lanka forces doing exactly that! Appreciate that this differs from current western military thinking on the subject.
Imperial culture lionisies ignorance and obedience. Custodes aren't immune to that even if they are superior beings, so it makes sense to me that he would bristle at being questioned by a subordinate.
Kroem wrote:Yes Custodes are intelligent and educated, but I don't think this translates into emotional intelligence, If fact we know it doesn't as the Custodes have a massive superiority complex and treat any lesser beings with derision.
There are many people in the real world who are both educated and intelligent but are abrasive and horrid to be around.
Secondly, the context of this conversation is a soldier giving an order to a subordinate. You don't give an order by saying please could you possibly do this and gosh it was a tough call.
If anything I'd say the primaris marine was out of order here, he disobeyed a direct order twice and questioned the competence of a superior officer in front of the entire command deck.
Them having a superiority complex is inaccurate. Some of them surely do, but their codex and novels like watchers of the throne and master of mankind repeatedly state that every one of them is unique, therefore we see guys like the shield captain from the short story, but also guys like valerian from watchers of the throne, who does in fact care about others.
Assigning a character trait to a faction is especially inaccurate regarding the custodes, because again...it has been stated over and over again that every one of them was made unique and purposefully so.
Secondly, the context of this conversation is a soldier giving an order to a subordinate. You don't give an order by saying please could you possibly do this and gosh it was a tough call.
If anything I'd say the primaris marine was out of order here, he disobeyed a direct order twice and questioned the competence of a superior officer in front of the entire command deck.
I don’t think the captain’s questions were unreasonable. Contrary to popular belief, military leaders who don’t listen to their subordinates objections tend to do poorly. Ask any lieutenant who doesn’t listen to their platoon sergeant . Also considering that the custodes demand came at gun point, it’s hard to see how it couldn’t have gone wrong. The Imperium’s shoot first, burn it, and the shoot the corpse policy is the real culprit hear.
The custodes were designed to be diplomats and savants 10,000 years prior in a galaxy that was very different. They spent the next 10,000 years basically sulking. It’s hardly surprising that they’d struggle to get along with others. The grudge against the astartes was also at play here. The custodes aren’t infallible, even if they believe otherwise.
I don't know why does comes up time and time again, but as we now know from multiple publications not least of which their own 8th ed codex, the custodes did in fact NOT spend 10k years sulking, far from it. Should they have been more involved in guiding the imperium as councelors and emissaries? Yeah, probably, but that happens when an entire faction with such a long history gets retconnend into a playable faction by GW.
Imperial culture lionisies ignorance and obedience. Custodes aren't immune to that even if they are superior beings, so it makes sense to me that he would bristle at being questioned by a subordinate.
Is that the relationship? Commander and subordinate, or are they separate chains of command?
My understanding was the latter- no one living outside a specific chair had any real authority over the Custodes, and they're their own enclosed branch of the Imperium.
In theory, the Ship Captain should be the one in charge of security matters on her own ship, with the understanding that she has to toe a lot of lines, because she's got three independent organizations to deal with (Custodes, SoS and Marines)
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I think my only main gripe is that the Primaris Marines are Greyshields.
From Tyvar's perspective, why would Greyshields with no connection to the Chapter be at risk? I understand them not respecting his authority being a crime, but why even ask them to respect his authority anyways?
From Gerion's perspective, why so attached to a Chapter you've literally never met?
This whole story would be so much better without the mention of Greyshields, IMO. Just have it as "these two companies of Brazen Drakes were on crusade, with a Custodes escort, and they've only just come home". That way, their dilemma of "we should trust our Battle Brothers" is way more believable and similarly, the Custodes have WAY more reason to suspect that the contingent of Marines really were traitors, because they've actually had contact with the main Chapter.
Because its the Imperium. Its a bureaucratic regime utterly lacking enlightenment, rationality, logic, or reason, just as it always had. This has been a hallmark of the fluff for literally decades at this point, why does *anyone* expect anything different? The whole point of this story is that they *are* Greyshields, we as readers are supposed to recognize the stupidity and lack of rationality in the Custodes behavior immediately. We are also supposed to recognize that this is what the Imperium is, and that this action is par for the course in terms of what we should expect.
Is that the relationship? Commander and subordinate, or are they separate chains of command?
My understanding was the latter- no one living outside a specific chair had any real authority over the Custodes, and they're their own enclosed branch of the Imperium.
The Custodes speak with the voice of the Emperor, in effect their word and authority is essentially absolute.
chaos0xomega wrote: we as readers are supposed to recognize the stupidity and lack of rationality in the Custodes behavior immediately.
The Custodes speak with the voice of the Emperor, in effect their word and authority is essentially absolute.
This contrast is what people are complaining about. There is the belief that if they are the voice of the Emperor, then they are expected to be as smart and as rational as the Emperor, and when they're not it seems out of character.
I personally don't think this is a problem, not every Custodes is Valerian or Navradaran, but it seems to be the crux of the main argument around the Custode's actions.
Except the Horus Heresy series has shown us that the Emperor himself was really not much better. He may have been intelligent and visionary, but he was arrogant, short-sighted, impatient, and often acted in a way that may have made sense to him but otherwise irrational and illogical to outside observers. The Emperors own behavior had just as much to do with pushing the primarchs to rebel as did the machinations of chaos, thats like a central conceit of the Horus Heresy series. The action of the Custodes in this story are along those same lines, just on a much smaller scale.
chaos0xomega wrote: Except the Horus Heresy series has shown us that the Emperor himself was really not much better. He may have been intelligent and visionary, but he was arrogant, short-sighted, impatient, and often acted in a way that may have made sense to him but otherwise irrational and illogical to outside observers. The Emperors own behavior had just as much to do with pushing the primarchs to rebel as did the machinations of chaos, thats like a central conceit of the Horus Heresy series. The action of the Custodes in this story are along those same lines, just on a much smaller scale.
And yet plenty of fans push that the Custodes still uphold the Emperor's "Imperial Truth" of logic and rationality, which we now know to be a joke. But people still believe it.
chaos0xomega wrote: Because its the Imperium. Its a bureaucratic regime utterly lacking enlightenment, rationality, logic, or reason, just as it always had. This has been a hallmark of the fluff for literally decades at this point, why does *anyone* expect anything different? The whole point of this story is that they *are* Greyshields, we as readers are supposed to recognize the stupidity and lack of rationality in the Custodes behavior immediately. We are also supposed to recognize that this is what the Imperium is, and that this action is par for the course in terms of what we should expect.
I'm not sure I agree. The Imperium is irrational and unenlightened, illogical and unreasonable by OUR standards, but there are logics and reasons within the setting itself.
Accusing Greyshields who have NEVER met the Chapter they were supposed to meet (which is vastly different from any situation we've had before with the Crusader Host or with 30k loyalists from traitor legions) or the crimes of Space Marines they've also never met just doesn't seem to fit with what I've come to expect from the Imperium.
The Imperium's unreasonable and cruel, yes, but not ALWAYS. Now, if these had been Marines already attached to the Chapter who had been away for a long time? It would still be unreasonable and irrational for the Custodian, but at least *slightly* logical. With the current one as presented, even within the logic of the setting, it makes no sense. If the Custodian is going to blame the Greyshields for that, surely they should also be blaming every single Greyshield from that genetic makeup? So, if the Brazen Drakes were Ultramarines successors, does that mean the Custodian believes ALL Ultramarines Greyshields to be corrupted? Because that's the only way that works with even a slight amount of thought.
And similarly, why are the Space Marines so adamant to defend brethren they've never met and have no connection to beyond "we're supposed to join you because she share the same bloodline"? Again, if they'd been part of the Chapter beforehand, or they were coming to the aid of Marines they had history with, it would make sense, if irrational and foolhardy.
Basically, by having them as Greyshields, it seems to break some of the internal logic the setting does possess. There *is* logic with 40k, at least, narrative logic.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Even though the Custodes might have been wrong in killing all of the Primaris on sight, if they hadn't somehow taken control of the situation the second the Marines refused to give up their weapons, they would have been very negligent and would have put not only themselves but the Imperium at large at risk. We know that the Marines were innocent, but they didn't know that. Given the rules of 40k, the second the Custodes' guard was down, the Marines could have hulked into mutated things and started spitting warpfire.
and it's worth noting the Primaris Marines started trying to make EXCUSES. "maybe it's a trick of the enemy" etc/ that puts them as immediatly suspect as they might be inclined to listen to the traitors and allow themselves to be lured into damnation themselves.
had the primaris captain instead said "Sheild captain, I understand your request but none wish to purge this taint greater then I! we shall cloister ourselves in our quarters, but I ask that you consider allowing us to aide in reaping the emperor's vengence on these traitors" or something. the sheild captain may have been willing to consider it. instead ".. BUT MAYBE THEY'RE INNOCENT.... and no we won;t give you our guns" yeaaaaah
That's true, they did indeed put themselves in greater trouble by making it seem like they could possibly go rogue, even if unintentionally. And the response you gave was far better the what was said in the story, though it might have still elicited the same response.
I wonder if the chapter name of the Brazen Drakes is supposed to allude to the Brazen Beasts (I know they're not the same, just that their names are similar), and that the Drakes might have turned to Khorne worship.
Now it would be a more intersting story if the custodes were not oh so perfectly uncorruptible. So that the new primaris were left thinking "what if this is a total trap and the custodes is in on it! They are setting us up to kill us easily, don't hand over the guns to a possibly corrupted leader! We are the only truly loyal people here that we know of, maybe we need to stop both our brothers and the custod dude."
"Yes, Sir" says another of the marines, a bit glassy eyed "and I have a CLEVER PLAN to do so, that I think we should consider."
...
I mean, isn't that how gene seeds go bad?
Voss wrote: Is that the relationship? Commander and subordinate, or are they separate chains of command?
My understanding was the latter- no one living outside a specific chair had any real authority over the Custodes, and they're their own enclosed branch of the Imperium.
Yeah that's like saying Kim Jung-Un is in a separate chain of command from, uh, absolutely anyone in ROK.
Nah, not really.
The Imperium of Man is a place where your superior says "Jump", you...
1.) Ask "How high?" and get shot for questioning orders
2.) Hesitate and get shot for hesitating.
3.) Jump as hard as you can as fast as you can and keep jumping until told otherwise.
Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.
The Custodes know this all too well. The first words out of the marine's mouth are to defend "his" battle-brothers, even though they haven't met their Chapter brothers yet. All he was told to do was stand down and order his fellow marines to surrender their arms until they figured out what to do with them.
And he still argued. This is the Imperium, this is a Custodes talking. Custodes basically outrank almost everybody. Are you a High Lord of Terra? Lord Inquisitor? Fleet Admiral? Chapter Master? No? Then shut up and follow orders, to the letter, without hesitation. Or you're a traitor.
The bad writing here is that the Space Marine didn't surrender immediately, without hesitation and order his battle brothers to do the same. Not the idea that the Custodes would want the marines locked down immediately on the off chance the 200 supersoldiers might turn on them. Because Space Marines are loyal to their battle brothers to the absurd degree (see above).
And that is actually why the story isn't badly written. It is two cultures clashing, with typical 40K explosive results. Space Marines genetically bred to be loyal to one another against the Emperor's right hand who expects absolute obedience without question.
Contrary to how some people are reading the story the Custodes does jump from reading a sentence to slaughtering Astartes.
The first three paragraphs of the story already tell you the Custodes has processed everything that is going on faster than anyone else on the ship.
‘Apprehend these traitors.’
The command was so shocking, so horribly incongruous that Knight-Centura Dessima could not immediately obey. She tried to reconcile what she had just learned, what it meant, with the order Shield-Captain Tyvar had given.
The entire bridge crew of the Lux-Imperatus shared a moment of frozen horror as they stared at the holo-projection floating in the air before them.
The humans, include the Sister of Silence commander, are all still trying to process what they are seeing and the Custodes has already read, processed, formulated a plan of action, and begun executing it.
And the Astartes are ahead of the humans and starting some unknown action. But Shield-Captain Tyvar know they will be and is already heading them off at the pass. He doesn't know if they are turning around to talk or going for their weapons, but he's taking no chances and levels his Guardian Spear.
So now we go into a back an forth. The Astartes making a case for "proven heretics" and the Shield-Captain first telling them what is going to happen to them, and then giving them a rare-second chance to comply with his directives complete with reminding them he is being lenient to them.
And does the Captain follow his orders? Do the Astartes comply? They do not. The sit there in a silent stalemate until Captain's failure to lead allows one of his battle brothers to widen the little rebellion against orders.
Well, Tyvar asked twice. Now he punctuates with force. Unfortunately, Astartes are Astartes and instead of responding like Guardsmen do when a Commissar performs a Summary Execution, the Astartes fight back and go rogue as a double-strength company.
Nothing left to do but kill all the Astartes.
Could this have been prevented? Sure. The Astartes could have surrendered and hoped an investigation absolved them from the crimes of their brethren. But that is not the path they choose to walk.
@alextroy, your first line of the quote gives away exactly how the Astartes are going to be treated
Apprehend these traitors
There is only one punishment for this in the Imperium. Death. The Custodes had just pronounced a death sentence on the Astartes, of course they're going to refuse.
AndrewC wrote: The Custodes had just pronounced a death sentence on the Astartes, of course they're going to refuse.
Which proves that they are, in fact, traitors.
The Imperium is not a 21st century liberal democracy where you have a constitutional right to due process and are considered innocent until proven guilty. A Custodes speaks and acts with the Emperor's own authority. To fail to follow his orders, no matter how 'unfair' they might seem, is treason by definition. As far as Imperial Law is concerned, the only correct course of action for Gerion and his men is to throw down their weapons and surrender immediately. They might be given a chance to plead their case once they are safely in custody, and they might ultimately be let off with a penitent crusade if it is determined they genuinely are not tainted in any way. But they have no legal right to such consideration. Tyvar's command was a test, and it is one Gerion failed. The Imperium is more important than any individual, even an Astartes. Losing 200 Marines is a better outcome than risking even the slightest chance that those 200 Marines might join the Enemy (or might have already).
It's also possible that Tyvar knew Gerion and his men well enough after spending months together in transit to determine that there was no realistic possibility of resolving this situation peacefully, and therefore decided that provoking them to violence on his terms was the best course of action. And, come on, Gerion's reaction to being accused of treason is basically to shout, "I'm not a traitor, you're the traitor!" at a frigging Custodes. Tyvar's not the moron here.
I'll also note that being corrupted through your geneseed, or even just by wearing the same heraldry as a Chapter that has turned traitor, is not some outlandish, wrong-headed idea in the 40K setting. Geneseed is a combination of science and literal sorcery. Anything connected to the Warp can ripple both forward and backward through time thanks to the timeless nature of that realm. If a Custodes thinks a Chapter embracing Chaos might taint some new recruits even if they haven't come into physical contact with their traitor brethren yet, I am willing to defer to his judgement. It is totally plausible within the 40K setting that a Chapter making a pact with the Dark Gods might damn every Astartes with the same geneseed, or the same heraldry, or who feels a bond of brotherhood to that Chapter.
John Prins wrote:Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.
Yes, to their *fellow* Space Marines. These Greyshields weren't part of the other Chapter yet though, which is why the situation falls flat for me.
Again, had it been "these Marines had been part of the Chapter, and had gone on a centuries long Crusade and returned to see their home in peril", I'd totally buy it. But are we saying now that Greyshields who's ONLY connection to their prospective fosters is geneseed which every single Greyshield possesses is corrupt?
Basically, both Gerion and Tyvar act like they've been part of the Chapter already. Gerion acts like these Marines he's never met are worth disobeying orders from someone he's presumably known since transit began, and Tyvar acts like there's any possible way these completely unrelated Space Marines could be affected by the events below. Honestly, I prefer the theories that Tyvar *knows* the Marines are completely innocent, but wants to abuse his authority to vent his anti-Space Marine sentiments he's harboured since the Heresy by killing them.
The bad writing here is that the Space Marine didn't surrender immediately, without hesitation and order his battle brothers to do the same. Not the idea that the Custodes would want the marines locked down immediately on the off chance the 200 supersoldiers might turn on them. Because Space Marines are loyal to their battle brothers to the absurd degree (see above).
Yeah, agreed. Neither character's reaction make internal sense - the Custodes are smart enough (or should be) to know that there's no possible way what affected the Drakes could possible have reached the Greyshields, and the Greyshields getting all defensive about a Chapter they've *never met* and the only knowledge they have of them is that they're traitors similarly doesn't sit well.
Literally, if they hadn't been Greyshields, I'd have loved the story.
Duskweaver wrote:I'll also note that being corrupted through your geneseed, or even just by wearing the same heraldry as a Chapter that has turned traitor, is not some outlandish, wrong-headed idea in the 40K setting. Geneseed is a combination of science and literal sorcery. Anything connected to the Warp can ripple both forward and backward through time thanks to the timeless nature of that realm. If a Custodes thinks a Chapter embracing Chaos might taint some new recruits even if they haven't come into physical contact with their traitor brethren yet, I am willing to defer to his judgement. It is totally plausible within the 40K setting that a Chapter making a pact with the Dark Gods might damn every Astartes with the same geneseed, or the same heraldry, or who feels a bond of brotherhood to that Chapter.
Potentially, but by that logic, if an Ultramarine-successor goes renegade, why don't the Custodes kill everyone with Ultramarines geneseed?
Don't forget, these are Greyshields. They have some of the cleanest, purest, and as close-to-source geneseed. Whatever their primogenitor was, the Greyshields coming to reinforce the Drakes are probably closer to the original geneseed than the Drakes are. Similarly, if those Greyshields are tainted, surely *every* Primaris Marines from that Primarch must then be tainted? Tyvar's action here essentially sets the precedent of "all Space Marines with X geneseed much be traitors".
Basically, unless the "corruption" only affects those of Brazen Drakes heraldry, why would the Greyshields be guilty? And, furthermore, we don't even know what heraldry these Greyshields have! We don't know if they're still in their Greyshield colours (being that of their Legion colours, with the grey chevron), or if they've prematurely adopted the Brazen Drake colours. I'd personally say, because they keep referring to them as 'Greyshields' that they're still in Greyshield colours.
So, without implying that every Primaris Marine on that genetic lineage is tainted, how are these Marines corrupted?
(Note: I'm not complaining about Tyvar being trigger-happy when the Marines defy his orders. I'm more talking about why he issued those orders in the first place).
John Prins wrote:Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.
Yes, to their *fellow* Space Marines. These Greyshields weren't part of the other Chapter yet though, which is why the situation falls flat for me.
But they were part of the chapter. They wore the livery. They were referred to as Brazen Drakes in the story (as well as being referred to as Greyshields, I'll admit). They've had years of warp travel to think of themselves as such. They IMMEDIATELY leap to the chapter's defense with their words (and disobedience to direct orders).
Certainly the Custodes could have been more diplomatic about the whole thing, but he decided to not take chances, given he was on the bridge of a starship with several Space Marines. And he was right, because the space marines didn't stand down and surrender.
"I'm going to resist arrest because I'm innocent." doesn't work in the real world either.
John Prins wrote:Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.
Yes, to their *fellow* Space Marines. These Greyshields weren't part of the other Chapter yet though, which is why the situation falls flat for me.
But they were part of the chapter. They wore the livery. They were referred to as Brazen Drakes in the story (as well as being referred to as Greyshields, I'll admit). They've had years of warp travel to think of themselves as such. They IMMEDIATELY leap to the chapter's defense with their words (and disobedience to direct orders).
Certainly the Custodes could have been more diplomatic about the whole thing, but he decided to not take chances, given he was on the bridge of a starship with several Space Marines. And he was right, because the space marines didn't stand down and surrender.
"I'm going to resist arrest because I'm innocent." doesn't work in the real world either.
In the real world you aren't going to die as a result of being arrested. Real world people don't say "people in your companies american offices were stealing so we're going to go ahead and shoot all of you just in case you were in on it."
Marines might be traitors here but they aren't really in the wrong either.
John Prins wrote:Also, Space Marines are super indoctrinated to be loyal to their fellow Space Marines. This is the whole reason the Heresy happened, because all those space marines got told by their superiors they were totally taking over the Imperium because their Primarchs said so. It's a flaw in the weapon that is that Space Marine that makes them vulnerable to Chaos - turn the right Space Marine and an entire chapter is effectively done.
Yes, to their *fellow* Space Marines. These Greyshields weren't part of the other Chapter yet though, which is why the situation falls flat for me.
But they were part of the chapter. They wore the livery.
Did they wear the livery? *Were* they part of the Chapter? I don't see how Space Marines who have never met their Chapter can be counted as "part of the Chapter".
They were referred to as Brazen Drakes in the story (as well as being referred to as Greyshields, I'll admit).
Likely for prose reasons, to distinguish the Marines and avoid saying 'Greyshield' all the time.
They've had years of warp travel to think of themselves as such.
With no actual understanding of their host Chapter's culture? They've also had years to get to know the Custodes and develop bonds with them.
They IMMEDIATELY leap to the chapter's defense with their words (and disobedience to direct orders).
Yeah - I think that's inappropriate from them, as they're Greyshields. Again, had they not been Greyshields, I'd completely understand it, but with them being Greyshields, they're closer to being a whole other Chapter than they are to being Brazen Drakes, IMO.
Certainly the Custodes could have been more diplomatic about the whole thing, but he decided to not take chances, given he was on the bridge of a starship with several Space Marines. And he was right, because the space marines didn't stand down and surrender.
Yes, the Marines didn't surrender, which I think was *also* out of character for what I believe the situation was. Basically, the Custodian shouldn't have accused the Greyshields (who have never had any contact with this Chapter) of anything, and the Greyshields, having not had any contact with the Chapter, shouldn't have any particular desire to aid a Chapter that, as far as they know, are totally evil.
"I'm going to resist arrest because I'm innocent." doesn't work in the real world either.
In the real world, you're not arresting someone because the someone in the company they were *about* to be hired by broke the law, and you're likely not going to kill that person when you arrest them either.
They weren't Brazen Drakes. They were Greyshields. If the treachery of the actual Brazen Drakes is enough to incriminate those merely on the same bloodline, then by that logic, practically every Chapter should be considered corrupt, as members of every genetic group have fallen to Chaos.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If the treachery of the actual Brazen Drakes is enough to incriminate those merely on the same bloodline, then by that logic, practically every Chapter should be considered corrupt, as members of every genetic group have fallen to Chaos.
To be fair, that is not at all an unheard of viewpoint within the 40k universe.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If the treachery of the actual Brazen Drakes is enough to incriminate those merely on the same bloodline, then by that logic, practically every Chapter should be considered corrupt, as members of every genetic group have fallen to Chaos.
To be fair, that is not at all an unheard of viewpoint within the 40k universe.
Thats the viewpoint most Custodes have... they hate space marines in a general sense.
I mean they have a red button that would destroy the Phalanx above Terra and the Imperial Fists, and they would have no remorse or second toughts about using it.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If the treachery of the actual Brazen Drakes is enough to incriminate those merely on the same bloodline, then by that logic, practically every Chapter should be considered corrupt, as members of every genetic group have fallen to Chaos.
To be fair, that is not at all an unheard of viewpoint within the 40k universe.
Thats the viewpoint most Custodes have... they hate space marines in a general sense.
I mean they have a red button that would destroy the Phalanx above Terra and the Imperial Fists, and they would have no remorse or second toughts about using it.
Since then, repairs have been under way to restore Phalanx to its full functionality, and to purify those zones of the voidcraft deemed tainted by the touch of Chaos. Amidst the endless bustle, the toing and froing of gene-bulked work gangs, and the interminable rites of the Adeptus Ministorum, the Adeptus Custodes have had little difficulty seeding agents onto the craft.
Hidden in plain sight, these intruders keep careful watch over what they view as a dangerously potent Adeptus Astartes war engine, and stand ready to take whatever action they must. To the Custodians, even the most loyal Space Marine Chapters will always be potential Traitors. It is their duty never to forgive, nor forget, what trust in the Primarchs led to during the Heresy. Thus, were Phalanx ever to direct its guns towards the Imperial Palace, the Custodians would enact veiled protocols that would see it scuttled before it could fire a shot.
After the fall of Cadia the adeptus custodes offered "help" to repair the phalanx to the imperial fists. In the proceed they did what I quoted.
Adeptus Custodes REALLY hate space marines. I mean, they killed the Thunder Warriors and would have done the same to Space Marines if not for the War on the Webway.
Galas wrote: Adeptus Custodes REALLY hate space marines. I mean, they killed the Thunder Warriors and would have done the same to Space Marines if not for the War on the Webway.
Kind of silly considering that the roots of heresy came from the Emperor being dumb, the marines that are still around are the ones who stayed loyal and if anything they're making marines more likely to go against them. Along with everyone else...
Galas wrote: Adeptus Custodes REALLY hate space marines. I mean, they killed the Thunder Warriors and would have done the same to Space Marines if not for the War on the Webway.
Kind of silly considering that the roots of heresy came from the Emperor being dumb, the marines that are still around are the ones who stayed loyal and if anything they're making marines more likely to go against them. Along with everyone else...
The Heresy has a lot more sense and makes the Emperor less of a fool if you take as true what that character said in that recent novel I can't remember, that it was all planned. Because the Emperor conquered the stars for humanity, not for the space marines. They were nothing more than thunder warriors with a bigger purpose.
Yeah, the Emperor might have kept a couple of the more easily controlled legions around, but most of them would have been deleted just like the Thunder Warriors after the Crusade was over. No way would he have kept legions like the Night Lords and World Eaters around. Better to declare them as accidents and monsters and dispose of them after they'd done the dirty work he'd created them for.
AndrewC wrote: The Custodes had just pronounced a death sentence on the Astartes, of course they're going to refuse.
Of course?
I mean, Sisters sometime even volunteer for becoming repentia.
The fact that marines refused to comply with a death sentence, in 40k logics, means they were traitor and the ones in the wrong here.
Galas wrote: Thats the viewpoint most Custodes have... they hate space marines in a general sense.
Which makes it even crazier that they stopped the Sisters from killing even more marines during the Reign of Blood, all to stop a madman that wasn't even corrupted by Chaos!!
AndrewC wrote: The Custodes had just pronounced a death sentence on the Astartes, of course they're going to refuse.
Of course?
I mean, Sisters sometime even volunteer for becoming repentia.
The fact that marines refused to comply with a death sentence, in 40k logics, means they were traitor and the ones in the wrong here.
Galas wrote: Thats the viewpoint most Custodes have... they hate space marines in a general sense.
Which makes it even crazier that they stopped the Sisters from killing even more marines during the Reign of Blood, all to stop a madman that wasn't even corrupted by Chaos!!
the custodes didn't take action to save a few space marines they took action to save the Imperium
AndrewC wrote: The Custodes had just pronounced a death sentence on the Astartes, of course they're going to refuse.
Of course?
I mean, Sisters sometime even volunteer for becoming repentia.
The fact that marines refused to comply with a death sentence, in 40k logics, means they were traitor and the ones in the wrong here.
Galas wrote: Thats the viewpoint most Custodes have... they hate space marines in a general sense.
Which makes it even crazier that they stopped the Sisters from killing even more marines during the Reign of Blood, all to stop a madman that wasn't even corrupted by Chaos!!
Sisters are also insanely fanatic. Marines are less so.
The Marines aren't really in the wrong considering they acted to attempt to preserve 200 odd loyal Primaris marines from being killed for no decent reason. That's a significant military force being killed literally because an idiot in golden armour is prejudiced.
While death was possible, even probable, after the decree of Hereticus Diabolus Extremis, the Astartes fate was not sealed until they failed to surrender. That is what killed 200 Primaris.
For all his sternness, the Shield-Captain did tell them "You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined." Death was not assured at that point.
Someone who's extremely prejudiced, accuses them of heresy with no evidence and refused to even try and determine if there were loyalist elements left on the planet is not giving you a decent fate or even a fair one.
An official pronouncement by the Inquisition and a homeworld in flames isn't evidence?
And there is all that scrolling data and cries for assistance that we don't know the details of which very well may be more evidence.
No, I think there was plenty of evidence to make taking them into custody necessary.
I think they mean no evidence that the Greyshields (who have never met this Chapter, and are as related to them as the Ultramarines/Dark Angels are to the Astral Claws) are corrupt.
Which there isn't.
Now, when they resist arrest, they prove themselves guilty in the Custodian's eyes, but that doesn't change that the Custodian realistically shouldn't have been arresting them in the first place.
If this made sense in 40k's internal logic, then the Ultramarines would have long been exterminated for heresy by the Custodes for their successors turning to Chaos.
So the Custodes does something many real life cops do (without killing but with detentions and beatings)... and people call it unreasonable? In 40k?
Yeah, no. A big problem many people has when reading fiction is that they always evalue everything as an outside observer with omniscient knowledge. People makes mistakes, people is driven by emotions, and people in this case have prejudices and act in ways we can fin unreasonable but for them are perfectly valid.
From the standpoint of for example the imperial guard this all seems pretty laughable - in a not really funny way. Whole regiments, are wiped out for lesser reasons. Generally Guard forces would count themselves lucky to be asked to surrender once, let alone twice.
Imagine the same situation with Guard conscripts for greyshields and a Marine Captain as Custodes (which as far as I understand is more or less comparable). Should the Marine really have to ask nicely to surrender their weapons?
Sure the Custodes should be more rational than for example an Inquisitor, but it's still Warhammer 40k...
An official pronouncement by the Inquisition and a homeworld in flames isn't evidence?
And there is all that scrolling data and cries for assistance that we don't know the details of which very well may be more evidence.
No, I think there was plenty of evidence to make taking them into custody necessary.
I think they mean no evidence that the Greyshields (who have never met this Chapter, and are as related to them as the Ultramarines/Dark Angels are to the Astral Claws) are corrupt.
Which there isn't.
ValentineGames wrote:People are forgetting how silly and illogical 40k is...
Sigh.
40k is silly and illogical *by our standards*, but it does possess internal logic.
Pyroalchi wrote:From the standpoint of for example the imperial guard this all seems pretty laughable - in a not really funny way. Whole regiments, are wiped out for lesser reasons. Generally Guard forces would count themselves lucky to be asked to surrender once, let alone twice.
Imagine the same situation with Guard conscripts for greyshields and a Marine Captain as Custodes (which as far as I understand is more or less comparable). Should the Marine really have to ask nicely to surrender their weapons?
Space Marines aren't Guard Conscripts.
Guardsmen are cheap nearly universally. And while Space Marines are perhaps cheap to a Custodian, in the grand scheme of the Imperium, 200 Marines are a weapon that can swing campaigns. Comparing them to Guardsmen also ignores the issue I have with the scenario, because they don't even do it with Guardsmen!
If a Cadian regiment goes traitor, they don't kill every Cadian across the galaxy! They kill those associated with them, or those that could have feasibly had contact. Similarly, these Marines had no feasible way of being corrupted (at least, no way that wouldn't implicate each and every Space Marine in the Imperium), so why accuse them of corruption?
Conscripts are cheap, but even they're not killed for the same circumstances. This is what I mean by 'breaking internal logic'. 40k is illogical and irrational *by our standards*, but it's not devoid of it's own internal structure and reason.
While shooting and killing someone for not obeying your order to surrender is horrific and irrational (and unfortunately present) IRL, it's part of life in 40k. My issue is that them even being suspected of corruption is illogical, even within the setting.
Again, had they not have been Greyshields, it would have made complete sense internally.
They're described specifically as "Brazen Drakes Greyshields". Gerion speaks of the Brazen Drakes on the planet as "brethren", "our comrades" and "my battle-brothers".
So I think you should stop trying to claim that these Greyshields have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes and can't possibly share their heresy.
Duskweaver wrote: They're described specifically as "Brazen Drakes Greyshields". Gerion speaks of the Brazen Drakes on the planet as "brethren", "our comrades" and "my battle-brothers".
So I think you should stop trying to claim that these Greyshields have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes and can't possibly share their heresy.
Why? They *do* have nothing to do with the Chapter. They've never even MET them! It's explicitly stated that they've spent months trying to reach their "newly adopted homeworld", and their Chapter Master hasn't even accepted them yet. They don't belong to that Chapter any more so than any random Greyshield descended from XIII Legion stock belongs to the Sons of Orar.
The fact they're described as Brazen Drakes in the extract is either simply shorthand for "soon-to-be Brazen Drakes", or simply inaccurate fact-checking, which BL authors aren't immune from. I'd also like to add that I think the Captain rushing to the defence of a Chapter he has no actual attachment to (calling them his battle brothers) is also something which I think is out-of-character. The Custodian isn't the only character which I think acts illogically for the setting, but I only mention them first because they're the first one to act and instigate the situation.
If it were kept that these were Greyshields, there wouldn't be much of a story, IMO, because if I'd written it, the Custodian would never have suspected the Greyshields, and the Greyshields would never have reacted.
If it were changed that these weren't Greyshields, the story would pan out identically, for me.
It's literally *only* the mention of Greyshields that changes the whole story, IMO, from being a really solid story and scenario, to being internally inconsistent.
pm713 wrote: Sisters are also insanely fanatic. Marines are less so.
That's exactly the problem with marines, and why Custodes don't trust them, for good reasons.
pm713 wrote: The Marines aren't really in the wrong considering they acted to attempt to preserve 200 odd loyal Primaris marines from being killed for no decent reason.
They got 200 odd loyal Primaris marines lost, some Sisters of Silence and other bystanders lost too, they could have gotten a Custodes lost on top of it, they damaged the ship controls, AND they likely added a bunch of traitor Primaris marines on top of that. It's much, MUCH MUCH worse than just losing 200 odd loyal primaris lol.
Duskweaver wrote: They're described specifically as "Brazen Drakes Greyshields". Gerion speaks of the Brazen Drakes on the planet as "brethren", "our comrades" and "my battle-brothers".
So I think you should stop trying to claim that these Greyshields have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes and can't possibly share their heresy.
They can but that's in the same way that the Grey Knights could decide to kill the Custodes off by blowing up Terra. It's theoretically possible but so unlikely you may as well call it impossible. They never met anyone on the planet, had no bad marks at all prior to someone trying to arrest them for almost no reason and when they did go traitor against the custodes they were pushed into it so much they might be Thousand Sons.
I don't know if it was stated here or on FB, but someone said the SM are often loyal to their battle brothers above all else, and that this is one reason why just a few or even one corrupted Marine can turn an entire chapter. Just look at the first two Rafen books; a corrupted inquisitor got a massive portion of the Blood Angels to believe that one of them was Sanguinius reborn. Had it not been for Rafen's persistence, the whole chapter might have been corrupted. The wasn't some random successor chapter, this was the Blood Angels themselves. I think one reason why the Custodes are distrustful of Marines is that they have so much autonomy and get so wrapped in their traditions and their inner bonds that a domino effect within the ranks can have fast-acting and disastrous consequences.
Also, let's be honest, in 40k, it's Chaos Space Marines who drive much of the action of the long war. Without them, all Chaos has are swarms of mostly incompetent and poorly-armed cultists, various scattered Traitor Guard units, some angry mutants like beastmen, and daemons that are extremely dangerous but who usually fade back into the warp after a period of time. There is no unified army force like the Astra Militarum, the power of the Dark Mechanicus is a shadow of that of the loyalist Mechanicus, and things like Traitor Knights and Titans are extremely rare to how many the Imperium has. It is Abaddon, the legions and the warbands who cause the most damage to the Imperium. The face of the greatest threat to mankind in the 40k universe is a Space Marine who turned his back on his people and decided to set the galaxy on fire. And it's of course not like the Horus Heresy was a one-off event; Marines have been defecting and causing ruin for over ten thousand years. SoB rarely turn and Custodes never turn from what we know. Only the Grey Knights are Marines who are pure in their loyalty. Looking at the situation from the view of someone who is not a SM, I think it would be entirely logical to believe that SM as a while at their core should not be trusted very much.
Duskweaver wrote: They're described specifically as "Brazen Drakes Greyshields". Gerion speaks of the Brazen Drakes on the planet as "brethren", "our comrades" and "my battle-brothers".
So I think you should stop trying to claim that these Greyshields have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes and can't possibly share their heresy.
They can but that's in the same way that the Grey Knights could decide to kill the Custodes off by blowing up Terra. It's theoretically possible but so unlikely you may as well call it impossible. They never met anyone on the planet, had no bad marks at all prior to someone trying to arrest them
for almost no reason and when they did go traitor against the custodes they were pushed into it so much they might be Thousand Sons.
Some have said that because the marines in the story are Greyshields and haven’t met and interacted with their chapter yet they shouldn’t be associated with their heresy.
I’d expect that the Greyshields were told which chapter they are being assigned to at the outset of their voyage, quite possibly months or years earlier and have spent that time reading up on their new chapter and studying the chapter’s history and legends and using good old space marine (and enhanced Primaris) indoctrination techniques such that the Greyshields now personally identify as Brazren Dragons and that is now where their primary loyalties lie. The fact that they’ve never met them in person is irrelevant.
The fact the marine captain immediately jumps to the defence of his new chapter rather than condemning their heresy is all the confirmation needed.
And regarding the business of reacting to a death sentence: I think (personal opinion) one of the best ways within the WH40k universe to at least get a chance of getting out of being accused as traitor is to completely comply to any order by Imperial Officials, regardless of the possible deadly consequenses. If someone like a Custodes/Marine Chapter Master/Inquisitor etc. shouts "Traitor!" at you, but does not start firing instead ordering you to lay down your weapons and you are really loyal, it would be wise to do so. As others said: the moment you refuse and start to argue with authorities you proof them riht. On the other hand the shield captain might have had reason to change his opinion would the Greyshields he just called traitors (purposely provoking them) have laid down their weapons, solemnly and calmly accepting whatever decision the Imperium (here represented by the Custodes) see fit. Because that is the cause of action a real traitor would not follow.
In a similar vein, even if it can be argued that there are worlds between Guardsmen and Marines: If an Inquisitor wants to test if an Imperial Regiment is truly loyal or not and calls them traitors, ordering them to prepare for execution and they react by disarming and calmly claiming "yes my Lord." that would be the ultimate proof that they remained faithful. I think that would rarely happen, because Guardsmen are to much normal humans, but I would suspect something like that from a Space Marine who SHOULD be trained and indoctrinated for maximum loyalty without being influenced by things like fear of death.
But again: that is my personal opinion and nothing I would claim as fact.
Aash wrote:Some have said that because the marines in the story are Greyshields and haven’t met and interacted with their chapter yet they shouldn’t be associated with their heresy.
I’d expect that the Greyshields were told which chapter they are being assigned to at the outset of their voyage, quite possibly months or years earlier and have spent that time reading up on their new chapter and studying the chapter’s history and legends and using good old space marine (and enhanced Primaris) indoctrination techniques such that the Greyshields now personally identify as Brazren Dragons and that is now where their primary loyalties lie. The fact that they’ve never met them in person is irrelevant.
My understanding from reading Dark Imperium is that the Greyshields are definitely told where they're going, but they don't all like it. And while they *could* have indoctrination techniques applied, we don't know that. Again, I hasten to emphasise that these Greyshields hadn't even been accepted by the Brazen Dakes yet - the extract explicitly points out that the Talons of the Emperor are only there to ensure the Drakes' Chapter Master accepts "Cawl's miracle".
The Greyshields almost certainly have done their research about who they're joining and will be educated in the Chapter's culture, but to the point where they share the same crimes? How could be that be plausible?
Again, my point is why does Tyvar accuse them of corruption? They're as unrelated to the actual Brazen Drakes as any other Chapter would be. Now, when they leap to the Drakes' defence, that *does* ring alarm bells, but IMO they should never have been put in the position where they were being threatened.
The fact the marine captain immediately jumps to the defence of his new chapter rather than condemning their heresy is all the confirmation needed.
I'm not denying that part. What I'm saying is that the Captain should never have been put in the position where he felt the need to jump to their defence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pyroalchi wrote: And regarding the business of reacting to a death sentence: I think (personal opinion) one of the best ways within the WH40k universe to at least get a chance of getting out of being accused as traitor is to completely comply to any order by Imperial Officials, regardless of the possible deadly consequenses. If someone like a Custodes/Marine Chapter Master/Inquisitor etc. shouts "Traitor!" at you, but does not start firing instead ordering you to lay down your weapons and you are really loyal, it would be wise to do so. As others said: the moment you refuse and start to argue with authorities you proof them riht. On the other hand the shield captain might have had reason to change his opinion would the Greyshields he just called traitors (purposely provoking them) have laid down their weapons, solemnly and calmly accepting whatever decision the Imperium (here represented by the Custodes) see fit. Because that is the cause of action a real traitor would not follow.
In a similar vein, even if it can be argued that there are worlds between Guardsmen and Marines: If an Inquisitor wants to test if an Imperial Regiment is truly loyal or not and calls them traitors, ordering them to prepare for execution and they react by disarming and calmly claiming "yes my Lord." that would be the ultimate proof that they remained faithful. I think that would rarely happen, because Guardsmen are to much normal humans, but I would suspect something like that from a Space Marine who SHOULD be trained and indoctrinated for maximum loyalty without being influenced by things like fear of death.
But again: that is my personal opinion and nothing I would claim as fact.
Yeah, I'm not really disputing the whole "if a high ranking agent of the Imperium tells you to do something, you do it". I'm disputing why the shield-captain told them to do it in the first place.
Perhaps the initial accusation by the Custodes was a test to determine where the space marine loyalties lie? He knew they were expecting to join the Brazen Dragons so wasn’t sure if they would side with the traitors they hadn’t yet met or against them. So he asked the question. If he had no doubts he wouldn’t have told them to disarm, he’d have opened fire without giving them the opportunity to surrender.
It’s not the sensible approach IRL, but seems absolutely appropriate for the setting and in keeping with the distrust the Custodes traditionally have for Space Marines.
I think it’s a default mentality that nobody is “innocent until proven guilty” and rather that everyone is always under suspicion and it’s only a case of waiting for the slightest slip-up to justify ultra violence. Depends what you expect of the setting really, I guess. For me, this is one of the better pieces of lore written in recent times, it perfectly encapsulates the time of the far future in 40k and the fact that there are no good guys, only super evil space nazi catholics with their prejudices and super indoctrinated semi mindless super soldiers, versus the “believe-it-or-not” even worse alternatives.
It’s what’s been missing from so much of the lore and BL fiction, especially the HH stuff. There are no good guys,
Aash wrote:Perhaps the initial accusation by the Custodes was a test to determine where the space marine loyalties lie?
What reason does he have to test them? Does he hold everyone at gunpoint when about to fight against otherwise completely unrelated threats?
He knew they were expecting to join the Brazen Dragons so wasn’t sure if they would side with the traitors they hadn’t yet met or against them. So he asked the question. If he had no doubts he wouldn’t have told them to disarm, he’d have opened fire without giving them the opportunity to surrender.
It’s not the sensible approach IRL, but seems absolutely appropriate for the setting and in keeping with the distrust the Custodes traditionally have for Space Marines.
Whereas I don't think it's inkeeping with the setting's logic, given the can of worms it opens and the implications of it. If the Custodian believed that these Marines were corrupted, and was prepared to kill them even though they had no contact with the Chapter, that would imply the same Custodian would accuse the entire Ultramarines Chapter of heresy if one of their successors turned, which feels absurd for a Custodian to believe. I can absolutely understand them having a disdain for Space Marines, but executing two whole companies with absolutely no proof (again, I'm talking about before the Marines resisted)? If this Custodian is considered normal, then how are there any Space Marines left in the galaxy? So, unless this Custodian is corrupted or rogue, I don't think this story feeds into the setting's internal logic. If GW wanted to show a "corrupt" Custodian or one that was working against his fellow Custodians, I think there's better ways to do it.
But, that's all my opinion.
I think it’s a default mentality that nobody is “innocent until proven guilty” and rather that everyone is always under suspicion and it’s only a case of waiting for the slightest slip-up to justify ultra violence. Depends what you expect of the setting really, I guess. For me, this is one of the better pieces of lore written in recent times, it perfectly encapsulates the time of the far future in 40k and the fact that there are no good guys, only super evil space nazi catholics with their prejudices and super indoctrinated semi mindless super soldiers, versus the “believe-it-or-not” even worse alternatives.
It’s what’s been missing from so much of the lore and BL fiction, especially the HH stuff. There are no good guys,
Eh, I think there's plenty of lore that encapsulates the 'no good guys' stuff without it needing characters to be mindless and illogical (within the setting's ideas of logic).
Again, if they'd literally removed the word Greyshield, I'd be all on board. It's the implication of 'they were only threatened because they were Greyshields' that I don't like. It's just feels a lot like forcing the word in, when it really didn't need to be. Had the Custodian threatened them because they were actually part of the Chapter, it would have made complete internally logical sense. Hell, even if the Custodian had threatened a completely DIFFERENT Chapter because he feels that Space Marines band together regardless of Chapter, it would have been interesting. It's the fact they seem to imply that the Greyshields are at fault simply because they're about to join the Chapter they've had no connection to that feels completely illogical, even for 40k. As I said, remove the word Greyshield, and the story becomes so much more coherent and interesting, IMO.
‘Brothers, we are betrayed!’ he roared into his gorget’s vox mic, throwing himself sideways as he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!’
Not only he already has a Brazen Drake heraldry on his armor, he even already have nice novelty weapons customized to his new home team! That just doesn't scream "still a total outsider to the chapter", does it?
‘Brothers, we are betrayed!’ he roared into his gorget’s vox mic, throwing himself sideways as he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!’
Not only he already has a Brazen Drake heraldry on his armor, he even already have nice novelty weapons customized to his new home team! That just doesn't scream "still a total outsider to the chapter", does it?
Exactly. They don't sound like Greyshields, who *are* complete outsiders to their Chapter (from what's been implied). These sound like normal Marines who have long been integrated into the Chapter, and someone just added the word Greyshield because reasons. Cut out the word Greyshields, and the story makes so much more sense, which is what I've been saying.
With the release of the latest WarCom short story, I'm even more confused. In 'Consquences', we're told that the Greyshields (if they really are) are supposed to meet with Brazen Drakes Master Kaslyn on their homeworld of Khassedur. In 'Retaliation' (which I really like), the Brazen Drakes Chapter Master is Argento Corrian, who's located on Dessah. Now, maybe Dessah isn't the homeworld, sure, but a Chapter Master change? (also just realised that 'Dessah' is actually part of 'Khassedur', taking the middle of the word and reversing it - curious). Honestly, applying Occam's Razor to this myself, I think that there's a bit of narrative inconsistency here. The writing in both is fine. It's just the details which are a little puzzling.
‘Brothers, we are betrayed!’ he roared into his gorget’s vox mic, throwing himself sideways as he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!’
Not only he already has a Brazen Drake heraldry on his armor, he even already have nice novelty weapons customized to his new home team! That just doesn't scream "still a total outsider to the chapter", does it?
Exactly. They don't sound like Greyshields, who *are* complete outsiders to their Chapter (from what's been implied). These sound like normal Marines who have long been integrated into the Chapter, and someone just added the word Greyshield because reasons.
Cut out the word Greyshields, and the story makes so much more sense, which is what I've been saying.
With the release of the latest WarCom short story, I'm even more confused. In 'Consquences', we're told that the Greyshields (if they really are) are supposed to meet with Brazen Drakes Master Kaslyn on their homeworld of Khassedur. In 'Retaliation' (which I really like), the Brazen Drakes Chapter Master is Argento Corrian, who's located on Dessah. Now, maybe Dessah isn't the homeworld, sure, but a Chapter Master change? (also just realised that 'Dessah' is actually part of 'Khassedur', taking the middle of the word and reversing it - curious).
Honestly, applying Occam's Razor to this myself, I think that there's a bit of narrative inconsistency here. The writing in both is fine. It's just the details which are a little puzzling.
Maybe their records are out of date. Kaslyn has been replaced by Corian and even the world name is out of date.
‘Brothers, we are betrayed!’ he roared into his gorget’s vox mic, throwing himself sideways as he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!’
Not only he already has a Brazen Drake heraldry on his armor, he even already have nice novelty weapons customized to his new home team! That just doesn't scream "still a total outsider to the chapter", does it?
Exactly. They don't sound like Greyshields, who *are* complete outsiders to their Chapter (from what's been implied). These sound like normal Marines who have long been integrated into the Chapter, and someone just added the word Greyshield because reasons.
Cut out the word Greyshields, and the story makes so much more sense, which is what I've been saying.
With the release of the latest WarCom short story, I'm even more confused. In 'Consquences', we're told that the Greyshields (if they really are) are supposed to meet with Brazen Drakes Master Kaslyn on their homeworld of Khassedur. In 'Retaliation' (which I really like), the Brazen Drakes Chapter Master is Argento Corrian, who's located on Dessah. Now, maybe Dessah isn't the homeworld, sure, but a Chapter Master change? (also just realised that 'Dessah' is actually part of 'Khassedur', taking the middle of the word and reversing it - curious).
Honestly, applying Occam's Razor to this myself, I think that there's a bit of narrative inconsistency here. The writing in both is fine. It's just the details which are a little puzzling.
That's strange indeed. In Burden of Brotherhood we see Corian though, so he seems to be the right one. Wouldn't be the first time they got names mixed up, I think in the Beast arises series the chapter masters of some first founding chapters changed their names as well... Guess someone missed the briefing...
Sgt. Cortez wrote: That's strange indeed. In Burden of Brotherhood we see Corian though, so he seems to be the right one. Wouldn't be the first time they got names mixed up, I think in the Beast arises series the chapter masters of some first founding chapters changed their names as well... Guess someone missed the briefing...
Ah, interesting! In the Brotherhood extract, the actual Chapter name is never disclosed, so we had no connection between the Astartes in Brotherhood and in Consequences until Retaliation. Interestingly enough, they're all written by separate authors. I'm suspecting that missed briefings may have been involved.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: That's strange indeed. In Burden of Brotherhood we see Corian though, so he seems to be the right one. Wouldn't be the first time they got names mixed up, I think in the Beast arises series the chapter masters of some first founding chapters changed their names as well... Guess someone missed the briefing...
Ah, interesting! In the Brotherhood extract, the actual Chapter name is never disclosed, so we had no connection between the Astartes in Brotherhood and in Consequences until Retaliation. Interestingly enough, they're all written by separate authors. I'm suspecting that missed briefings may have been involved.
In the news thread someone theorized that the other guy could be the chapter master before Corian and he might have had to be killed by their ritual because of their psychic abilities. And after that the new chapter master corian decided to go renegade. I found it to be plausible with the information we have, it's also not unheard of that the fleet from consequences is not up to date with information about the current chapter master.
I guess we still don't see the whole picture here. Interesting that we have 3 short stories about an unheard chapter that in my opinion is only there to get "worfed" in War of the spyder.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Again, if they'd literally removed the word Greyshield, I'd be all on board. It's the implication of 'they were only threatened because they were Greyshields' that I don't like. It's just feels a lot like forcing the word in, when it really didn't need to be. Had the Custodian threatened them because they were actually part of the Chapter, it would have made complete internally logical sense. Hell, even if the Custodian had threatened a completely DIFFERENT Chapter because he feels that Space Marines band together regardless of Chapter, it would have been interesting. It's the fact they seem to imply that the Greyshields are at fault simply because they're about to join the Chapter they've had no connection to that feels completely illogical, even for 40k. As I said, remove the word Greyshield, and the story becomes so much more coherent and interesting, IMO.
And in this you have missed missed that essential paranoid truth of the 41st Millennium. In our world the rampant paranoia, xenophobia, and callous disregard for life doesn't make sense. The idea that whole worlds will be condemned as irredeemably corrupt by exposure daemons is abhorrent to us. The concept that genetical-enchanced super-soldiers could have irrational attachment to people they've never met is ludicrous. And yet that is just another fact of life in Warhammer 40,000.
Duskweaver wrote: They're described specifically as "Brazen Drakes Greyshields". Gerion speaks of the Brazen Drakes on the planet as "brethren", "our comrades" and "my battle-brothers".
So I think you should stop trying to claim that these Greyshields have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes and can't possibly share their heresy.
They can but that's in the same way that the Grey Knights could decide to kill the Custodes off by blowing up Terra. It's theoretically possible but so unlikely you may as well call it impossible. They never met anyone on the planet, had no bad marks at all prior to someone trying to arrest them
for almost no reason and when they did go traitor against the custodes they were pushed into it so much they might be Thousand Sons.
How and why could the Greyknights blow up terra?
They have the button for the doomsday weapon Vulkan put there in case the demons got in through the throne. As to why they could just go with corruption, acceptable losses, drama etc.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Again, if they'd literally removed the word Greyshield, I'd be all on board. It's the implication of 'they were only threatened because they were Greyshields' that I don't like. It's just feels a lot like forcing the word in, when it really didn't need to be. Had the Custodian threatened them because they were actually part of the Chapter, it would have made complete internally logical sense. Hell, even if the Custodian had threatened a completely DIFFERENT Chapter because he feels that Space Marines band together regardless of Chapter, it would have been interesting. It's the fact they seem to imply that the Greyshields are at fault simply because they're about to join the Chapter they've had no connection to that feels completely illogical, even for 40k. As I said, remove the word Greyshield, and the story becomes so much more coherent and interesting, IMO.
And in this you have missed missed that essential paranoid truth of the 41st Millennium.
No, I think you've missed the point of my argument.
In our world the rampant paranoia, xenophobia, and callous disregard for life doesn't make sense. The idea that whole worlds will be condemned as irredeemably corrupt by exposure daemons is abhorrent to us.
Agreed. That's part of the established logic of 40k. It doesn't mean that 40k is devoid of logic, only that it works on different logical principles. I didn't deny that.
What you've taken that to mean is that 40k has a total absence of internal logic, which simply isn't the case.
The concept that genetical-enchanced super-soldiers could have irrational attachment to people they've never met is ludicrous. And yet that is just another fact of life in Warhammer 40,000.
No, it's not. Again, you're missing what I'm actually arguing against here.
A Space Marine Chapter feeling irrationally attached? Possible, purely out of humanitarianism (rare, but possible). What I'm arguing against is the Custodian accusing the Greyshields (which shouldn't be Greyshields) of being in league with the traitors. What grounds does that Custodian have that they're in league, or even to suspect them? And yes, I know someone's going to say "bbbut this is 40k, people are irrational and evidence isn't needed" - sure, evidence isn't needed in the trial, but there needs to be a *reason* to have their suspicions aroused in the first place? Otherwise, where's my story about a Custodian killing two companies of Marines because a Chapter halfway across the galaxy turned traitor, or outright killing Marines after no provocation because "40k doesn't need logic".
There is either one of two things wrong about the story, IMO. It is either that the Marines shouldn't be Greyshields; or that the Custodian should have had no specific reason to suspect the Marines who have had no more connection to the Drakes than any other Chapter.
My fixes to keep the story moving in the same direction:
- Have the Marines not be Greyshields
- Have the Marines be the first to leap to the aid of the traitor Chapter, and have the Custodian react to their action
Either of those two things would help the story fit so much better into the internal logic.
Well, obviously both the author and GW disagree with you. They believe the Cusdotes actions were warranted by the logic of the Imperium of the 41st Millennium. They did write and publish it that way.
@ Sgt_Smudge: First of: I agree with you, that the story would have been less "bumpy" if they had not been Greyshields. Just to make clear we are on the same page on that.
But, I personally (again: opinion, not fact) think it even makes kind of sense with them beeing Greyshields if the Custodes thought a specific way:
As others have mentioned (and that is at least what I picked up from Space Marine lore, but I'm not that deep into it) Space Marines are/where specifically designed, "built", trained and indoctrinated to be supersoldiers with unwavering loyalty towards the Emperor, the Imperium, their Chapter and their Battlebrothers (not neccessarily in that order). I assume that said indoctrination must already have started during the transit to deliver those supersoldiers in a "ready to use" state to their new chapter. They also should have no fear of death or at least do not let that interfere with their ability to follow orders. Also said loyalty includes obedience to orders from higher ranking officials representing the Imperium. The Imperium must rely on Space Marines to follow an order even if it means certain death - they expect that of their lowest penal soldiers, so it should be a no-brainer for their angels of death.
Now we have the moment the Custodes sees that their parent chapter (to which they never had contact) is declared traitor. As he has 200 trained and armed supersoldiers on bord he HAS to be 100% sure where their loyalties lie, even under maximum pressure, where their loyalties might conflict with each other. It would be negligence of his duty to not assure that the process of creation, training and indoctrination succeeded in creating supersoldiers whose first loyalty lies with the Imperium, or at least more with the Imperium than with some strangers they never met but where indoctrinated to see as brothers. On top of that he has to know it fast.
So his course of action is to put them under maximal pressure and see how they react. Fully knowing (it was not stated in the story, that is only my interpretation) that they most likely could not have been in to the revolt he still calls them traitors and orders them to surrender, even though they know that might be their death sentence. In a way he tests
1. if they would accept an order by a representative of the Imperium even if it means death
2. if they feel in any way related/loyal to the traitors down on the planet
3. Which degree of obedience they generally have
possible outcomes would include:
1. surrendering and following orders without any talk back or questioning => they are obedient and loyal
2. surrendering but argueing that their battlebrothers might be innocent => He might still be unsure of their loyalties if really put to the test, but they are obedient at least. The careful course of action would be not to rely on them when fighting their former chapter, but they seem to still be a functional tool for the Imperium on another front.
3. they say that they have no ties whatsoever with the traitors down there and that those should be exterminated - but refuse to surrender their weapons => while their loyalty seems to be ok, they seem to not accept him as superior and/or have an obedience problem.
4. They refuse to surrender and argue in favor of the battlebrothers they never met (but where indoctrinated to see as brothers) => they show no obedience and a problematic ranking of their loyalties
5. they immediatly start to attack => they were definitly traitors.
As they chose 4., the shield captain has to consider that his supersoldiers are "defect". But as a sensible Imperial Official he does not want to "waste" the precious recource 200 Primaris are. So he asks a second time, this time warning that he will not ask again. It is a slight shift of tone but an important one as this time instead of saying "you are under arrest as traitors, surrender until we decide what to do with you" he threatens an immediate response. In a way it's the difference between saying "lay down your weapon, you are under arrest" and "lay down your weapon or I shoot you death. 3... 2....1..."
=> if they would have surrendered then the shield captain would still have to consider that he had to apply an immediate (in contrast to a possible future) death threat before they followed orders, putting their loyalty towards the Imperium still in question.
Instead they failed again, with the known consequences.
All that is my personal interpretation but I think Tyvar accusing them that harshly makes a lot of sense when one keeps in mind that he has to trust them in the battles to come that they definitly would not hesitate to kill all their battlebrothers they were indoctrinated to see as family when ordered to do so by the Imperium - in his view ultimatly represented by himself. A truly perfect loyal and obedient supersoldier would not have failed both tests and then Tyvar could have decided further if he wants to use them against the brazen beasts or at least keep them for another battle or a redemption crusade.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: There is either one of two things wrong about the story, IMO. It is either that the Marines shouldn't be Greyshields; or that the Custodian should have had no specific reason to suspect the Marines who have had no more connection to the Drakes than any other Chapter.
My fixes to keep the story moving in the same direction:
- Have the Marines not be Greyshields
- Have the Marines be the first to leap to the aid of the traitor Chapter, and have the Custodian react to their action
Either of those two things would help the story fit so much better into the internal logic.
Its been discussed ad nauseam but:
1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.
2. The story specifically notes that the Custodian reacted faster than anyone on the bridge could have reacted.
To tie my two points together - Custodes think all Marines will go traitor at some point. Its in the codex Galas quoted. He's probably been watching the Marines waiting for them to show some kind of sign and bam they arrive at the planet and suspicions confirmed the Marines are traitors. He reacted faster than the Marine because he's a Custodes. The outcome is what it is.
Also Games Workshop writes the fluff for this entire universe. You are literally arguing against Stan Lee on if Spider Man could have done that thing you didn't think he should have done.
It fits in with the 40k grimdark theme quite well. There may be one heretic in a crowd of 10,000 people? KILL THEM ALL!
Then wonder why people are resentful, afraid and hostile to your authority and you have to repress them even harder, leading to more heresy...
In a short story in dark heresy, I think, there was something about a planet where stoneworkers were subject to such terrible conditions they were literally being worked to death and finally organized into a sort of union to demand livable conditions.
The hero of the story gt a bunch of fanatics to help him undermine some massive stone statues (Think statue of liberty or bigger) and rig them with explosives.
When the marching amry of stone workers came to deman better, I.E. livable, working conditions thy fantics detonated the charges, collapsed the statues on the workers and crushed them.
Yeah, then wonder why you don't have enough stoneworkers left to get the work you need done, genjius.
The irony is that the imperium's harsh repression and brutal tyranny just keeps making more 'heretics', resulting in them needing to increase the oppression, leading to more heretics.
At times I just imagine Alpha Legionaries complaining that the imperium makes it too easy for them to create rebellion and uprisings, it's jut no challenge for them when you're dealing with an organization like that.
But that's the overall 40k tone. And this story fits it to the proverbial "T".
Jjohnso11 wrote:Its been discussed ad nauseam but:
1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.
2. The story specifically notes that the Custodian reacted faster than anyone on the bridge could have reacted.
To tie my two points together - Custodes think all Marines will go traitor at some point. Its in the codex Galas quoted.
So why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines for when their successors haven't turned traitor? Or rather, threatened all the Ultramarines with heresy for it?
Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant. But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.
He's probably been watching the Marines waiting for them to show some kind of sign and bam they arrive at the planet and suspicions confirmed the Marines are traitors.
But that would be a fault with the Greyshields, which would be completely separate from the Brazen Drakes? If he had a problem with the Greyshields, he shouldn't have needed proof from the Brazen Drakes, because they're simply not related!
He reacted faster than the Marine because he's a Custodes. The outcome is what it is.
I don't have an issue with him reacting faster. My issue is that he acts at all, because he should have no reason to suspect that Greyshields (which should have literally no attachment to their hosts) could be implicated in any of this.
Also Games Workshop writes the fluff for this entire universe. You are literally arguing against Stan Lee on if Spider Man could have done that thing you didn't think he should have done.
Not all comics are written equal, let along all Games Workshop stuff.
Matt Swain wrote:It fits in with the 40k grimdark theme quite well. There may be one heretic in a crowd of 10,000 people? KILL THEM ALL!
Yes, but they need a suspected heretic first. The Greyshields should have been above suspicion as they had nothing to do with the Drakes.
Otherwise, why aren't the Ultramarines exterminated every time one of their successors turns traitor?
Jjohnso11 wrote: 1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.
That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?
Now the Custodes just look really lazy and neglectful of their duties!
Jjohnso11 wrote: Also Games Workshop writes the fluff for this entire universe. You are literally arguing against Stan Lee on if Spider Man could have done that thing you didn't think he should have done.
I agree - Goto's works are all free of issues! After all, they're GW publications, so you can't argue against them...
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines for when their successors haven't turned traitor? Or rather, threatened all the Ultramarines with heresy for it?
Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant.
But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything. But that would be a fault with the Greyshields, which would be completely separate from the Brazen Drakes? If he had a problem with the Greyshields, he shouldn't have needed proof from the Brazen Drakes, because they're simply not related! I don't have an issue with him reacting faster. My issue is that he acts at all, because he should have no reason to suspect that Greyshields (which should have literally no attachment to their hosts) could be implicated in any of this.
If you replaced Brazen Drakes Greyshields with Ultramarines I'm sure the Custodes would have done the same thing. The Horus Heresy did happen- Custodes were/are assumed to be fighting Legions of Traitor Space Marines. Its interesting you keep removing Brazen Drakes from Greyshields to forge the narrative that they aren't from the same chapter. As was already pointed out the Brazen Drakes Greyshields have personalized weapons and know their Chapter. I'm sure they could name their Chapter Master and are not complete strangers. He should have reacted. He's on a ship full of Space Marines from a Chapter that is confirmed to be traitors. Look how quickly he sent out the message to his Company about fighting the Custodes. If he was innocent he wouldn't have sent that message. If you read the Horus Heresy you'll see how quickly ENTIRE LEGIONS of Space Marines turned traitor.
Jjohnso11 wrote: 1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.
That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?
Now the Custodes just look really lazy and neglectful of their duties!
Jjohnso11 wrote: Also Games Workshop writes the fluff for this entire universe. You are literally arguing against Stan Lee on if Spider Man could have done that thing you didn't think he should have done.
I agree - Goto's works are all free of issues! After all, they're GW publications, so you can't argue against them...
I'll reiterate - replace Brazen Drakes with any of the chapters you just said and the Custodes would have killed everyone on that bridge in exactly the same way. The Custodes don't have the man power or the authority to declare war on those Chapters but if the opportunity came and they received word that there was a traitor and it appeared the chapter was going to help them they would kill everyone they could.
@ Sgt. Smudge:
May I ask what your opinion on my last post would be?
Regarding your analogy to the Ultramarines there are big differences in my opinion:
1. The Brazen Beasts are the Greyshields chapter. Even if they never met I assume (my opinion) that some kind of loyalty indoctrination must already have been performed so that they can be used upon arrival. The Ultramarines on the other hand are not indoctrinated towards loyalty to other chapters.
2. The Greyshields on board are an immediate problem. IF their loyalty should be questioned the Custodes has to act NOW. Or in other terms if he suspect them he should put them to the test (as mentioned in my last post) or detain them until the immediate threat is over and a final decisions can be made.
On the contrary if an UM successor goes renegade, the original Ums are likely far away, at least not on a ship where a Custodes has the authority and responsibility.
3. The UM have a millenia long battle- and loyalty-record, the 200 Primaris don't (and their intended battlebrothers obviously neither.)
4. IF the Custodes called them traitors knowing they were innocent as a test OR if he is just a d*** towards Marines: he will likely get away without consequences calling some odd 200 Greyshields traitors, but demanding the annihilation of a living Primarchs own founding chapter with a millenia long battlerecord and their own pocket empire might have consequences
Jjohnso11 wrote: 1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.
That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?
Now the Custodes just look really lazy and neglectful of their duties!
Exactly! If the Imperium is so illogical and so vehement when it comes to purging heresy that they will kill Marines that have no connection beyond geneseed, why haven't all Space Marines barring the Grey Knights been wiped out?
Matt Swain wrote:It fits in with the 40k grimdark theme quite well. There may be one heretic in a crowd of 10,000 people? KILL THEM ALL!
Yes, but they need a suspected heretic first. The Greyshields should have been above suspicion as they had nothing to do with the Drakes.
This is the Imperium of Man. Everyone is suspect.
If everyone is suspect, why isn't everyone dead then?
If the Imperium is happy to kill 10,000 people to kill a suspect, why don't they just wipe out everyone? There's traitor Cadians out there. Why haven't all Cadian regiments been exterminated? There's definitely treacherous Mechanicum personnel. Why haven't the Imperium wiped out Stygies? There's certainly been Marines from even First Founding Chapters who have fallen traitor - why haven't they been wiped out?
Jjohnso11 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines for when their successors haven't turned traitor? Or rather, threatened all the Ultramarines with heresy for it?
Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant.
But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.
But that would be a fault with the Greyshields, which would be completely separate from the Brazen Drakes? If he had a problem with the Greyshields, he shouldn't have needed proof from the Brazen Drakes, because they're simply not related!
I don't have an issue with him reacting faster. My issue is that he acts at all, because he should have no reason to suspect that Greyshields (which should have literally no attachment to their hosts) could be implicated in any of this.
If you replaced Brazen Drakes Greyshields with Ultramarines I'm sure the Custodes would have done the same thing.
You're telling me that if the Ultramarines and Custodes were travelling together, and found a completely unrelated Chapter with no established ties to the Ultramarines had turned traitor, the Custodes would immediately point weapons at the Ultramarines and demand their surrender, before the Ultramarines could even say or do anything?
I heavily doubt that has ever happened, so no, I disagree with that.
The Horus Heresy did happen- Custodes were/are assumed to be fighting Legions of Traitor Space Marines. Its interesting you keep removing Brazen Drakes from Greyshields to forge the narrative that they aren't from the same chapter. As was already pointed out the Brazen Drakes Greyshields have personalized weapons and know their Chapter.
That's my point! The way they're written, the way the Custodes react to them - they don't sound like they're Greyshields! Think - doesn't it make WAY more sense that this is a author error, and they mistakenly called them Greyshields?
I'm only calling them Greyshields because that's what the story does, but when you break down what's going on, how and why would Greyshields have personalised weapons and gifts from a Chapter that they've outright never met? Doesn't it logically make so much more sense this is an author error, one that, if corrected, would make the entire story make so much more sense?
Because then, you'd have WAY more reason for the Custodes flipping out - the Marines they're travelling with have actually HAD contact with the traitor Chapter, this is exactly the same thing that happened with the Word Bearers cohort of Custodians, and they're working on more evidence than just "you have the same Primarch". And the Marines on board the ship could still well be innocent, but it makes the whole situation so much better written, because both factions have more evidence and emotion behind them.
For the Custodian, this is exactly something that's happened before. They know the Marines have had plenty of time to be corrupted, and are officially part of the traitor Chapter. There's more than just a shared Primarch to link the two forces.
For the Marines, those are ACTUAL brothers they've lived, fought and died alongside which the Custodes are condemning, not some far off cousins who they've never met.
The characters become so much more interesting and dynamic when you assume that 'Greyshield' is an error, and remove the word.
He's on a ship full of Space Marines from a Chapter that is confirmed to be traitors.
No, he's not. He's on a ship full of Space Marines who are about to join, for the first time with a traitor Chapter. The Marines on that ship shouldn't be Greyshields and Brazen Drakes at the same time. That seems completely incongruous with what we've been shown about Greyshields and their hosts.
Look how quickly he sent out the message to his Company about fighting the Custodes. If he was innocent he wouldn't have sent that message.
He only sent the message because of the Custodian's actions. If the Custodian hadn't accused them of corruption in the first place (and as has been noted, he acted before anyone else could, so it's not like he was reacting to someone else's motion), then the Greyshields (if they truly are Greyshields) wouldn't have done anything.
Sure, when they start going on about "those are our brothers down there!", the Custodian should have massive red flags, but Greyshields shouldn't be that attached to Marines they've never met!
If you read the Horus Heresy you'll see how quickly ENTIRE LEGIONS of Space Marines turned traitor.
Yes, but the Legions were connected by far more than just the same geneseed. They shared the same leader, they shared the same training and doctrines, they shared the same history. They fell together because they WERE together, because they all venerated their Primarchs and commanders more than the Emperor, so when those figures fell, they all did. Greyshields don't have this! The Brazen Drakes seem to have fallen out of their refusal to hide their genetic flaw (which the Greyshields shouldn't either have, as their geneseed is from purer stock closer to the Legion/First Founding standard - and as no First Founder has the flaw of the Brazen Drakes, that means their issue is tied to their specific strain, which the Greyshields wouldn't have been bred from), and from their love for their Chapter Master (who hasn't even accepted Greyshield reinforcement yet, because that's why the Custodes were there: to enforce 'Cawl's Miracle'.). Under the circumstances we're given, the Custodes would have no reason to suspect beyond any normal means that the Greyshields were corrupted, and it's only through his antagonism of them that any action is even taken.
I'll reiterate - replace Brazen Drakes with any of the chapters you just said and the Custodes would have killed everyone on that bridge in exactly the same way. The Custodes don't have the man power or the authority to declare war on those Chapters but if the opportunity came and they received word that there was a traitor and it appeared the chapter was going to help them they would kill everyone they could.
No, they wouldn't.
Firstly, the Greyshields hadn't made any response to protecting the Brazen Drakes until after the Custodian held them at gunpoint. There was no "appearance the Chapter was going to help them" until after the Custodian took action.
Secondly, Custodians don't just wipe out whole Companies of Space Marines because unrelated Chapters turn traitor. They're suspicious of Space Marines, true, but there's been no case of a Custodian killing another Marine because one from a completely unrelated Chapter turned traitor. Otherwise, why haven't we seen scores of Chapters wiped out because single Marines from neighbouring Chapters fell to Chaos? Why wasn't every Marine who sided with Huron in the Badab War put to death?
Pyroalchi wrote:@ Sgt. Smudge:
May I ask what your opinion on my last post would be?
My apologies, I must have missed it.
Regarding your analogy to the Ultramarines there are big differences in my opinion:
1. The Brazen Beasts are the Greyshields chapter. Even if they never met I assume (my opinion) that some kind of loyalty indoctrination must already have been performed so that they can be used upon arrival. The Ultramarines on the other hand are not indoctrinated towards loyalty to other chapters.
That's incongruous with our depictions of Greyshields. Ultramarine Greyshields require indoctrination upon arrival and were assigned to Chaplains to get them accustomed to their new Chapter. Similarly, Flesh Tearers Greyshields were not of the same temperament as their hosts.
Now, home-grown Primaris (aka, non-Greyshields) wouldn't have this issue, but Greyshields had a great degree of cultural barriers to overcome. They weren't indoctrinated prior to meeting - their only similarity was geneseed.
2. The Greyshields on board are an immediate problem. IF their loyalty should be questioned the Custodes has to act NOW. Or in other terms if he suspect them he should put them to the test (as mentioned in my last post) or detain them until the immediate threat is over and a final decisions can be made.
On the contrary if an UM successor goes renegade, the original Ums are likely far away, at least not on a ship where a Custodes has the authority and responsibility.
But that shouldn't mean the Ultramarines are still equally as guilty as these Greyshields? If we're to assume the Custodes will question/kill Marines whose only crime is *being related by geneseed*, why wouldn't they suspect and act upon the same circumstances and go to the Ultramarines and demand their surrender?
Otherwise, that just makes it sound like the Custodes are lazy.
3. The UM have a millenia long battle- and loyalty-record, the 200 Primaris don't (and their intended battlebrothers obviously neither.)
And? The Ultramarines also have Marines who've fallen to Chaos. They have entire successor Chapters who've fallen. They've had 10,000 years to become corrupted. These Greyshields have had around 100 years, quite likely serving with Guilliman himself or with an incredibly high-ranking official, possibly even a Custodes Shield-Captain, are made of superior genetic stock, have presumably had none of their number corrupted or even suspected of heresy, and have spent the last several months in close contact with the Custodes.
I'd trust the Greyshields to be more loyal than the Ultramarines, all things considered.
4. IF the Custodes called them traitors knowing they were innocent as a test OR if he is just a d*** towards Marines: he will likely get away without consequences calling some odd 200 Greyshields traitors, but demanding the annihilation of a living Primarchs own founding chapter with a millenia long battlerecord and their own pocket empire might have consequences
So really, it's not about the Custodes being right and sticking to their principles, it's being complete hypocrites who are just calling out Marines to dupe them into making a wrong move, and turning a blind eye to the big Chapters who would be equally as guilty?
Well, that does sound very irrational of them, so I guess that makes sense in come interpretations of the Imperium.
@ Sgt_Smudge: First of: I agree with you, that the story would have been less "bumpy" if they had not been Greyshields. Just to make clear we are on the same page on that.
But, I personally (again: opinion, not fact) think it even makes kind of sense with them beeing Greyshields if the Custodes thought a specific way:
As others have mentioned (and that is at least what I picked up from Space Marine lore, but I'm not that deep into it) Space Marines are/where specifically designed, "built", trained and indoctrinated to be supersoldiers with unwavering loyalty towards the Emperor, the Imperium, their Chapter and their Battlebrothers (not neccessarily in that order). I assume that said indoctrination must already have started during the transit to deliver those supersoldiers in a "ready to use" state to their new chapter. They also should have no fear of death or at least do not let that interfere with their ability to follow orders. Also said loyalty includes obedience to orders from higher ranking officials representing the Imperium. The Imperium must rely on Space Marines to follow an order even if it means certain death - they expect that of their lowest penal soldiers, so it should be a no-brainer for their angels of death.
Now we have the moment the Custodes sees that their parent chapter (to which they never had contact) is declared traitor. As he has 200 trained and armed supersoldiers on bord he HAS to be 100% sure where their loyalties lie, even under maximum pressure, where their loyalties might conflict with each other. It would be negligence of his duty to not assure that the process of creation, training and indoctrination succeeded in creating supersoldiers whose first loyalty lies with the Imperium, or at least more with the Imperium than with some strangers they never met but where indoctrinated to see as brothers. On top of that he has to know it fast.
So his course of action is to put them under maximal pressure and see how they react. Fully knowing (it was not stated in the story, that is only my interpretation) that they most likely could not have been in to the revolt he still calls them traitors and orders them to surrender, even though they know that might be their death sentence. In a way he tests
1. if they would accept an order by a representative of the Imperium even if it means death
2. if they feel in any way related/loyal to the traitors down on the planet
3. Which degree of obedience they generally have
possible outcomes would include:
1. surrendering and following orders without any talk back or questioning => they are obedient and loyal
2. surrendering but argueing that their battlebrothers might be innocent => He might still be unsure of their loyalties if really put to the test, but they are obedient at least. The careful course of action would be not to rely on them when fighting their former chapter, but they seem to still be a functional tool for the Imperium on another front.
3. they say that they have no ties whatsoever with the traitors down there and that those should be exterminated - but refuse to surrender their weapons => while their loyalty seems to be ok, they seem to not accept him as superior and/or have an obedience problem.
4. They refuse to surrender and argue in favor of the battlebrothers they never met (but where indoctrinated to see as brothers) => they show no obedience and a problematic ranking of their loyalties
5. they immediatly start to attack => they were definitly traitors.
As they chose 4., the shield captain has to consider that his supersoldiers are "defect". But as a sensible Imperial Official he does not want to "waste" the precious recource 200 Primaris are. So he asks a second time, this time warning that he will not ask again. It is a slight shift of tone but an important one as this time instead of saying "you are under arrest as traitors, surrender until we decide what to do with you" he threatens an immediate response. In a way it's the difference between saying "lay down your weapon, you are under arrest" and "lay down your weapon or I shoot you death. 3... 2....1..."
=> if they would have surrendered then the shield captain would still have to consider that he had to apply an immediate (in contrast to a possible future) death threat before they followed orders, putting their loyalty towards the Imperium still in question.
Instead they failed again, with the known consequences.
All that is my personal interpretation but I think Tyvar accusing them that harshly makes a lot of sense when one keeps in mind that he has to trust them in the battles to come that they definitly would not hesitate to kill all their battlebrothers they were indoctrinated to see as family when ordered to do so by the Imperium - in his view ultimatly represented by himself. A truly perfect loyal and obedient supersoldier would not have failed both tests and then Tyvar could have decided further if he wants to use them against the brazen beasts or at least keep them for another battle or a redemption crusade.
that the whole business might be an intended provocation, knowing they *should* be innocent? Because functional (in a sense of loyal and obedient towards the imperium, represented here through the Custodes) Marines should - theorethically - not question the order, even if they are innocent?
And regarding the other points: It's just a really big stretch to compare the (maybe unjust) judgement over and elimination of 200 Greyshields of a later founding chapter to whole Regimentos of Imperial Guard (there should be at least dozends of millions of Cadians, maybe billions around) or a original founding chapter? It's just a completely different situation. If he had 100.000 Cadians in his holds and reason (as slim as it might be) to suspect they could be traitors the same reaction would be adequate FOR THESE 100.000. Not for all Cadians, but for all that pose an immediate threat for the fleet.
And Killing of 200 innocent Marines because their explicit chapter failed is (in my opinion, I have to admit) something completely different to holding a first founding chapter responsible for acts of their successor chapters. I know your argument is that the Greyshields had nothing more in common with the Brazen beasts than their geneseed, but their reaction and as someone else has mentioned the insignia on their weapons etc. imply otherwise.
Pyroalchi wrote: Have you considered, as I pointed out here, that the whole business might be an intended provocation, knowing they *should* be innocent? Because functional (in a sense of loyal and obedient towards the imperium, represented here through the Custodes) Marines should - theorethically - not question the order, even if they are innocent?
Considering I've never seen it occur anywhere before, no. Custodes, nor really anyone for that matter, don't seem to go up to random people who they have no outstanding suspicions at all and demand their immediate surrender. If a Custodes is telling you to surrender, that is because he is accusing you of such, and presumably has a reason for it.
We don't even see Commissars do it, and they'd be the most likely candidate of them all for that kind of kangaroo justice.
And regarding the other points: It's just a really big stretch to compare the (maybe unjust) judgement over and elimination of 200 Greyshields of a later founding chapter to whole Regimentos of Imperial Guard (there should be at least dozends of millions of Cadians, maybe billions around) or a original founding chapter? It's just a completely different situation. If he had 100.000 Cadians in his holds and reason (as slim as it might be) to suspect they could be traitors the same reaction would be adequate FOR THESE 100.000. Not for all Cadians, but for all that pose an immediate threat for the fleet.
But a Chapter of rogue Astartes represents an immediate threat to the entire Imperium. That's why the Imperium is so zealous in it's eradication of heretics.
Again, if the reason for the Custodes killing these 200 unrelated Greyshields was "they don't trust Space Marines, and they think they're somehow involved in the corruption of a Chapter they've never met", then surely when a Space Marine Chapter outright has members fall to Chaos (which we know for a fact has happened to at least the Space Wolves and Raven Guard, and almost certainly to other First Founders), why don't we see the Custodes eradicate them for much closer connections? After all, I thought these Custodes were SUPER distrustful of all Space Marines, why would they care about killing First Founders? And as for Guardsmen, as someone earlier stated, the Imperium is happy to kill 10,000 people if one of them *may* be a heretic. Killing off entire regiments of Cadians when so many fall to Chaos (they might be resistant, but they're not immune by any stretch) shouldn't be out of the question of the kind of leaps of logic Tyvar displays.
His ONLY link between the Greyshields and the Brazen Drakes that he can suspect them for are geneseed and both being Space Marines. That's it. They've never met, they're not indoctrinated, and they don't seem to have had any kind of contact - the Brazen Drakes haven't even accepted the Primaris as their own yet! So if those two tenuous links are enough to make him demand them surrender, then I think him exterminating soldiers that come from the same world and have proven heretics and traitors in their history would be completely in-character, no?
And Killing of 200 innocent Marines because their explicit chapter failed is (in my opinion, I have to admit) something completely different to holding a first founding chapter responsible for acts of their successor chapters.
Disagree. The Greyshields should have less in common with the Brazen Drakes than they do with Greyshields from completely different gene-pools. The ONLY link between the main Chapter and them (if they were TRULY Greyshields) would be geneseed alone. That's less difference than there is between the Ultramarines and Genesis Chapter. If the Custodian is happy to accuse a nearly-completely unrelated unit of Marines of corruption because another Chapter fell, what about a Chapter that's had millennia of contact and genetic heritage with a traitor Chapter? If that's enough reason to consign those Marines to death, then nearly all First Founders should have been long wiped out.
And remember - it's not like people haven't tried to wipe out First Founders for crimes that didn't even relate to internal corruption. They're not immune, especially not from the Custodes.
I know your argument is that the Greyshields had nothing more in common with the Brazen beasts than their geneseed, but their reaction and as someone else has mentioned the insignia on their weapons etc. imply otherwise.
Yes - it's almost like they're not written as Greyshields.
Seriously, what's so hard about maybe the author having made a blunder and mistakenly calling them Greyshields? I've explained how them not being Greyshields would make so much more sense in the story. I'm not saying the Custodian is being inconsistent entirely. I'm saying they're being inconsistent if the Marines he's attacking are Greyshields.
Space marines are only as ' smart' as their writers.
If their writers have a poor or no grasp of tactics, it will show in the marines' behaviour. If the writers have little to no understanding or desire to conform to the background, it will show in the marines and the writing. Ultimately it comes down the the writer and the editor/publisher.
Regard the entire GW/BL back catalogue as "fan-fiction" and it all becomes incredibly obvious.
There's some good fan-fiction, but there's an awful lot of bad fan-fiction, and the same rules apply in professional writing.
Lord Damocles wrote: That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?
Realpolitik.
They cannot purge the ultramarine because they are afraid of the big G!!
Lord Damocles wrote: That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?
Realpolitik.
They cannot purge the ultramarine because they are afraid of the big G!!
I'm sure the Custodes couldn't care less which chapter of space marines he was dealing with. The Chapter was declared traitors by the Inquisition. Nothing else mattered. The Inquisition is the Imperium's trusted agency for rooting out corruption. Upon reading the declaration, there were only two outcomes: immediate unconditional surrender to authority or death.
alextroy wrote: I'm sure the Custodes couldn't care less which chapter of space marines he was dealing with. The Chapter was declared traitors by the Inquisition. Nothing else mattered. The Inquisition is the Imperium's trusted agency for rooting out corruption. Upon reading the declaration, there were only two outcomes: immediate unconditional surrender to authority or death.
Fine - except the Greyshields weren't (or shouldn't) have been part of the Chapter. That's the point of contention here: the Greyshields weren't declared traitors. The Brazen Drakes were. Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.
You wouldn't arrest the Ultramarines because of an action of their successors, so why would you arrest Greyshields for the action of a Chapter which only shares basic geneseed with?
Now, what *would* have made sense is if those Marines on the ship weren't Greyshields. But that would be admitting that maybe the story had some errors in it.
I think the whole thing falls to this quote in a nutshell:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"
Some could afford the luxury of "benefit of the doubt" they cannot.
Personally I think they should have been treated the same as what is done to the penal legions: use them where they are the most effective and Blackshield them with Deathwatch.
They would "earn back" the resources expended on their creation and possibly atone for their lineage.
I think the story would benefit from more internal monologue to weigh things up. In the way I see it, these grey shields were ordered to fall in line with the chapter they were going to reinforce. When they discover the chapter has gone heretic, they aren't necessarily being told to lie down their weapons as traitors, but to see where loyalties lie. As far as the shield-captain was concerned, nobody could be trusted in the chapter as they were on the surface as the chapter was in civil war. Better to be rid of it than risk it. Had the grey shields obeyed, it's potentially possible that the original chapter would have been wiped and entirely replaced with primaris marines, as was the second mandate of the torchbearer fleets. Either reinforce the chapter, or make it anew if it is destroyed.
alextroy wrote: I'm sure the Custodes couldn't care less which chapter of space marines he was dealing with. The Chapter was declared traitors by the Inquisition. Nothing else mattered. The Inquisition is the Imperium's trusted agency for rooting out corruption. Upon reading the declaration, there were only two outcomes: immediate unconditional surrender to authority or death.
Fine - except the Greyshields weren't (or shouldn't) have been part of the Chapter. That's the point of contention here: the Greyshields weren't declared traitors. The Brazen Drakes were. Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.
You wouldn't arrest the Ultramarines because of an action of their successors, so why would you arrest Greyshields for the action of a Chapter which only shares basic geneseed with?
Now, what *would* have made sense is if those Marines on the ship weren't Greyshields. But that would be admitting that maybe the story had some errors in it.
You're stuck on the Company name and disregarding the purpose of the trip. Here is from the article:
Even among the fleets that ferry Primaris reinforcements across the Imperium to their Chapters, heresy can be found. For the fleet carrying the Brazen Drakes to meet their battle-brothers on Khassedur, this will have dire consequences for all…
Even if they have never met Space Marines are brainwashed during their training to ensure loyalty to their Chapter.
Out of honest lack of knowledge: is there any logical reason NOT to already start indoctrinating loyalty into the greyshields before they meet their chapter? I don't really see a lack of time and already loyal Greyshields would be ready to use, instead of first needing months or years of indoctrination. But I admit that I'm not deep into Space Marine lore, therefore the question
Jjohnso11 wrote: 1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.
That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?
Now the Custodes just look really lazy and neglectful of their duties!
Exactly! If the Imperium is so illogical and so vehement when it comes to purging heresy that they will kill Marines that have no connection beyond geneseed, why haven't all Space Marines barring the Grey Knights been wiped out?
alextroy wrote:
The imperium is full of hypocrites.
Spoiler:
Jjohnso11 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines for when their successors haven't turned traitor? Or rather, threatened all the Ultramarines with heresy for it?
Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant.
But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.
But that would be a fault with the Greyshields, which would be completely separate from the Brazen Drakes? If he had a problem with the Greyshields, he shouldn't have needed proof from the Brazen Drakes, because they're simply not related!
I don't have an issue with him reacting faster. My issue is that he acts at all, because he should have no reason to suspect that Greyshields (which should have literally no attachment to their hosts) could be implicated in any of this.
If you replaced Brazen Drakes Greyshields with Ultramarines I'm sure the Custodes would have done the same thing.
You're telling me that if the Ultramarines and Custodes were travelling together, and found a completely unrelated Chapter with no established ties to the Ultramarines had turned traitor, the Custodes would immediately point weapons at the Ultramarines and demand their surrender, before the Ultramarines could even say or do anything?
I heavily doubt that has ever happened, so no, I disagree with that.
If the Custodes were transporting Ultramarine Primaris Space Marines to reinforce Ultramarines yes the Custodes would have killed all of them and would have then started attacking the Ultramarines on the planet. Disagree all you want I'm just telling you how it would go down.
I'm only calling them Greyshields because that's what the story does, but when you break down what's going on, how and why would Greyshields have personalised weapons and gifts from a Chapter that they've outright never met? Doesn't it logically make so much more sense this is an author error, one that, if corrected, would make the entire story make so much more sense?
Because then, you'd have WAY more reason for the Custodes flipping out - the Marines they're travelling with have actually HAD contact with the traitor Chapter, this is exactly the same thing that happened with the Word Bearers cohort of Custodians, and they're working on more evidence than just "you have the same Primarch". And the Marines on board the ship could still well be innocent, but it makes the whole situation so much better written, because both factions have more evidence and emotion behind them.
For the Custodian, this is exactly something that's happened before. They know the Marines have had plenty of time to be corrupted, and are officially part of the traitor Chapter. There's more than just a shared Primarch to link the two forces.
For the Marines, those are ACTUAL brothers they've lived, fought and died alongside which the Custodes are condemning, not some far off cousins who they've never met.
The characters become so much more interesting and dynamic when you assume that 'Greyshield' is an error, and remove the word.
He's on a ship full of Space Marines from a Chapter that is confirmed to be traitors.
No, he's not. He's on a ship full of Space Marines who are about to join, for the first time with a traitor Chapter. The Marines on that ship shouldn't be Greyshields and Brazen Drakes at the same time. That seems completely incongruous with what we've been shown about Greyshields and their hosts.
Look how quickly he sent out the message to his Company about fighting the Custodes. If he was innocent he wouldn't have sent that message.
He only sent the message because of the Custodian's actions. If the Custodian hadn't accused them of corruption in the first place (and as has been noted, he acted before anyone else could, so it's not like he was reacting to someone else's motion), then the Greyshields (if they truly are Greyshields) wouldn't have done anything.
Sure, when they start going on about "those are our brothers down there!", the Custodian should have massive red flags, but Greyshields shouldn't be that attached to Marines they've never met!
If you read the Horus Heresy you'll see how quickly ENTIRE LEGIONS of Space Marines turned traitor.
Yes, but the Legions were connected by far more than just the same geneseed. They shared the same leader, they shared the same training and doctrines, they shared the same history. They fell together because they WERE together, because they all venerated their Primarchs and commanders more than the Emperor, so when those figures fell, they all did. Greyshields don't have this! The Brazen Drakes seem to have fallen out of their refusal to hide their genetic flaw (which the Greyshields shouldn't either have, as their geneseed is from purer stock closer to the Legion/First Founding standard - and as no First Founder has the flaw of the Brazen Drakes, that means their issue is tied to their specific strain, which the Greyshields wouldn't have been bred from), and from their love for their Chapter Master (who hasn't even accepted Greyshield reinforcement yet, because that's why the Custodes were there: to enforce 'Cawl's Miracle'.). Under the circumstances we're given, the Custodes would have no reason to suspect beyond any normal means that the Greyshields were corrupted, and it's only through his antagonism of them that any action is even taken.
I'll reiterate - replace Brazen Drakes with any of the chapters you just said and the Custodes would have killed everyone on that bridge in exactly the same way. The Custodes don't have the man power or the authority to declare war on those Chapters but if the opportunity came and they received word that there was a traitor and it appeared the chapter was going to help them they would kill everyone they could.
No, they wouldn't.
Firstly, the Greyshields hadn't made any response to protecting the Brazen Drakes until after the Custodian held them at gunpoint. There was no "appearance the Chapter was going to help them" until after the Custodian took action.
Secondly, Custodians don't just wipe out whole Companies of Space Marines because unrelated Chapters turn traitor. They're suspicious of Space Marines, true, but there's been no case of a Custodian killing another Marine because one from a completely unrelated Chapter turned traitor. Otherwise, why haven't we seen scores of Chapters wiped out because single Marines from neighbouring Chapters fell to Chaos? Why wasn't every Marine who sided with Huron in the Badab War put to death?
Primaris reinforcements to the Chapter. SAME CHAPTER if it doesn't make sense then you aren't really reading the complete article/story and understanding the relationship between the Primaris on the ship and the Space Marines on the planet. That isn't the fault of the author.
alextroy wrote: I'm sure the Custodes couldn't care less which chapter of space marines he was dealing with. The Chapter was declared traitors by the Inquisition. Nothing else mattered. The Inquisition is the Imperium's trusted agency for rooting out corruption. Upon reading the declaration, there were only two outcomes: immediate unconditional surrender to authority or death.
Fine - except the Greyshields weren't (or shouldn't) have been part of the Chapter. That's the point of contention here: the Greyshields weren't declared traitors. The Brazen Drakes were. Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.
You wouldn't arrest the Ultramarines because of an action of their successors, so why would you arrest Greyshields for the action of a Chapter which only shares basic geneseed with?
Now, what *would* have made sense is if those Marines on the ship weren't Greyshields. But that would be admitting that maybe the story had some errors in it.
You're stuck on the Company name and disregarding the purpose of the trip. Here is from the article:
Even among the fleets that ferry Primaris reinforcements across the Imperium to their Chapters, heresy can be found. For the fleet carrying the Brazen Drakes to meet their battle-brothers on Khassedur, this will have dire consequences for all…
Even if they have never met Space Marines are brainwashed during their training to ensure loyalty to their Chapter.
Are they? Brainwashed to ensure loyalty before they've even met them?
What we're shown about Greyshields, this simply isn't true. The Space Wolf Greyshield in 'Dark Imperium' is never shown to be indoctrinated when they're told they're joining the Wolfspear. The Ultramarines Greyshields have to be educated and drilled by a Firstborn Chaplain when they are inducted - there's no evidence they were indoctrinated beyond the normal Space Marine procedure. The Flesh Tearers Greyshield in one of the White Dwarf stories outright tells Gabriel Seth that he doesn't approve of the Flesh Tearer's brutality and practices - doesn't sound like they were indoctrinated either. And these Brazen Drakes Greyshields - where were they indoctrinated? By whom? Again, they've not even visited the homeworld yet, the Chapter Master hasn't even accepted them formally into his ranks, which is why Custodes were there in the first place!
No-one's saying that Greyshields could't be heretical, but that the suspicion/reasoning simply has no in-universe logic. True Greyshields aren't pre-indoctrinated. They are blank slates, who probably know good amounts about their First Founder (hence why the Space Wolf Greyshield is miffed he doesn't get assigned to his original founder), but they're not tied to a specific successor until much later, and seemingly require training and breaking in once they get there. So, these Greyshields being so attached makes no sense given what we've been told about Greyshields. The drake's head on the sword? Perhaps the Brazen Drakes are Salamanders successors, and so drake iconography would be seen amongst the Greyshields because they're still descended from Vulkan. That might explain that one, but there's no reason the Custodian should suspect the Greyshields specifically. If that's his grounds for them being traitors, as I said, he should be going after every Space Wolf, because we outright know there are Space Wolves who have turned to Chaos.
Pyroalchi wrote:Out of honest lack of knowledge: is there any logical reason NOT to already start indoctrinating loyalty into the greyshields before they meet their chapter? I don't really see a lack of time and already loyal Greyshields would be ready to use, instead of first needing months or years of indoctrination. But I admit that I'm not deep into Space Marine lore, therefore the question
Pre-indoctrination could occur, but I imagine the parent Chapters would want their staff on hand to monitor it. After all, you'd want to be sure they're being taught the right thing. But at that point, why not just have them come to your homeworld, where you already have all your staff, all your own indoctrination facilities, where they'd be coming anyways in order for them to outfitted in your own heraldry and colours and getting them organised within the fortress-monastery? There's simply very little practical or logistical reason to send your own training forces out to train them, and bring them home again anyways. May as well just have the Greyshields come to you, and keep your valuable staff safe.
Basically, evidence tells us that Greyshields don't seem to be indoctrinated to be fanatically loyal to a specific Chapter. To their Primarch and Imperium, certainly, but they don't seem to be indoctrinated pre-assignment.
Jjohnso11 wrote: 1. The Custodians hate Marines and will find any excuse to accuse them of heresy.
That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?
Now the Custodes just look really lazy and neglectful of their duties!
Exactly! If the Imperium is so illogical and so vehement when it comes to purging heresy that they will kill Marines that have no connection beyond geneseed, why haven't all Space Marines barring the Grey Knights been wiped out?
The imperium is full of hypocrites.
We're told Custodians aren't like that. But still - you're saying this Custodian's mind was so fractured that he was happy to accuse 200 Marines based solely on the actions of a completely different Chapter, but when a Chapter outright has people turn to Chaos from it, they do nothing about them? That's not hypocrisy, that's just a poorly written character.
Spoiler:
Jjohnso11 wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines for when their successors haven't turned traitor? Or rather, threatened all the Ultramarines with heresy for it?
Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant.
But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything. But that would be a fault with the Greyshields, which would be completely separate from the Brazen Drakes? If he had a problem with the Greyshields, he shouldn't have needed proof from the Brazen Drakes, because they're simply not related! I don't have an issue with him reacting faster. My issue is that he acts at all, because he should have no reason to suspect that Greyshields (which should have literally no attachment to their hosts) could be implicated in any of this.
If you replaced Brazen Drakes Greyshields with Ultramarines I'm sure the Custodes would have done the same thing.
You're telling me that if the Ultramarines and Custodes were travelling together, and found a completely unrelated Chapter with no established ties to the Ultramarines had turned traitor, the Custodes would immediately point weapons at the Ultramarines and demand their surrender, before the Ultramarines could even say or do anything?
I heavily doubt that has ever happened, so no, I disagree with that.
If the Custodes were transporting Ultramarine Primaris Space Marines to reinforce Ultramarines yes the Custodes would have killed all of them and would have then started attacking the Ultramarines on the planet. Disagree all you want I'm just telling you how it would go down.
So why haven't they done that? Again, it's no secret that Ultramarine geneseed Chapters have turned traitor. Geneseed is seemingly enough reason for the Custodes to go off on one and accuse everyone of heresy. So tell me why haven't the Custodes killed all the Ultramarines when Marines bearing their geneseed have gone rogue? You didn't answer my question.
You're telling me that "how it would go down" (which bears just as much weight as me telling you how this whole situations makes no sense internally), and then ignoring the ramificiations of that. If the Custodes are so trigger happy to kill Marines because of crimes committed by unrelated Chapters bearing the same geneseed, why *haven't* they wiped out every single Chapter?
I'm only calling them Greyshields because that's what the story does, but when you break down what's going on, how and why would Greyshields have personalised weapons and gifts from a Chapter that they've outright never met? Doesn't it logically make so much more sense this is an author error, one that, if corrected, would make the entire story make so much more sense?
Because then, you'd have WAY more reason for the Custodes flipping out - the Marines they're travelling with have actually HAD contact with the traitor Chapter, this is exactly the same thing that happened with the Word Bearers cohort of Custodians, and they're working on more evidence than just "you have the same Primarch". And the Marines on board the ship could still well be innocent, but it makes the whole situation so much better written, because both factions have more evidence and emotion behind them.
For the Custodian, this is exactly something that's happened before. They know the Marines have had plenty of time to be corrupted, and are officially part of the traitor Chapter. There's more than just a shared Primarch to link the two forces. For the Marines, those are ACTUAL brothers they've lived, fought and died alongside which the Custodes are condemning, not some far off cousins who they've never met.
The characters become so much more interesting and dynamic when you assume that 'Greyshield' is an error, and remove the word.
He's on a ship full of Space Marines from a Chapter that is confirmed to be traitors.
No, he's not. He's on a ship full of Space Marines who are about to join, for the first time with a traitor Chapter. The Marines on that ship shouldn't be Greyshields and Brazen Drakes at the same time. That seems completely incongruous with what we've been shown about Greyshields and their hosts.
Look how quickly he sent out the message to his Company about fighting the Custodes. If he was innocent he wouldn't have sent that message.
He only sent the message because of the Custodian's actions. If the Custodian hadn't accused them of corruption in the first place (and as has been noted, he acted before anyone else could, so it's not like he was reacting to someone else's motion), then the Greyshields (if they truly are Greyshields) wouldn't have done anything.
Sure, when they start going on about "those are our brothers down there!", the Custodian should have massive red flags, but Greyshields shouldn't be that attached to Marines they've never met!
If you read the Horus Heresy you'll see how quickly ENTIRE LEGIONS of Space Marines turned traitor.
Yes, but the Legions were connected by far more than just the same geneseed. They shared the same leader, they shared the same training and doctrines, they shared the same history. They fell together because they WERE together, because they all venerated their Primarchs and commanders more than the Emperor, so when those figures fell, they all did. Greyshields don't have this! The Brazen Drakes seem to have fallen out of their refusal to hide their genetic flaw (which the Greyshields shouldn't either have, as their geneseed is from purer stock closer to the Legion/First Founding standard - and as no First Founder has the flaw of the Brazen Drakes, that means their issue is tied to their specific strain, which the Greyshields wouldn't have been bred from), and from their love for their Chapter Master (who hasn't even accepted Greyshield reinforcement yet, because that's why the Custodes were there: to enforce 'Cawl's Miracle'.). Under the circumstances we're given, the Custodes would have no reason to suspect beyond any normal means that the Greyshields were corrupted, and it's only through his antagonism of them that any action is even taken.
I'll reiterate - replace Brazen Drakes with any of the chapters you just said and the Custodes would have killed everyone on that bridge in exactly the same way. The Custodes don't have the man power or the authority to declare war on those Chapters but if the opportunity came and they received word that there was a traitor and it appeared the chapter was going to help them they would kill everyone they could.
No, they wouldn't. Firstly, the Greyshields hadn't made any response to protecting the Brazen Drakes until after the Custodian held them at gunpoint. There was no "appearance the Chapter was going to help them" until after the Custodian took action. Secondly, Custodians don't just wipe out whole Companies of Space Marines because unrelated Chapters turn traitor. They're suspicious of Space Marines, true, but there's been no case of a Custodian killing another Marine because one from a completely unrelated Chapter turned traitor. Otherwise, why haven't we seen scores of Chapters wiped out because single Marines from neighbouring Chapters fell to Chaos? Why wasn't every Marine who sided with Huron in the Badab War put to death?
Primaris reinforcements to the Chapter. SAME CHAPTER if it doesn't make sense then you aren't really reading the complete article/story and understanding the relationship between the Primaris on the ship and the Space Marines on the planet. That isn't the fault of the author.
But they're supposed to be Greyshields! They're not part of the Chapter! They've not even been cleared by the Chapter Master yet! We know from other Greyshields that Marines aren't given any kind of indoctrination or specific contact with their new host. These Greyshields should have as much in common with their home Chapter as a Mortifactor would have with a Son of Orar - none! Judging from the Custodian's display of logic, it would seem that he believes taint to run in the geneseed (which they don't even share, because the Primaris have a purer strain of geneseed from Terra, whereas the clearly defective geneseed of the Brazen Drakes is unique to them alone), so why hasn't this Custodian tried to excommunicate every Marines from that Primarch's lineage? The entire thing sounds like someone forgot what a Greyshield actual is, and mistakenly believes them to be way more involved with their parent Chapter than they would be at this stage.
And honestly, it sounds like you don't know what Greyshields are either.
Just for you I'm going to quote all the times the Primaris in the story are referred to as Brazen Drakes. Which for some reason you're sure they aren't wearing the iconography or carrying personalized weapons of Brazen Drakes.
For the fleet carrying the Brazen Drakes to meet their battle-brothers on Khassedur, this will have dire consequences for all…
Their duty had been to reach it, to deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields to their newly adopted home world, and to see that Chapter Master Kaslyn accepted the gift of Cawl’s Miracle.
The Greyshields’ leader was turning, eyes widening even as Tyvar raised his guardian spear. The three Brazen Drakes who flanked him moved almost as fast, but not even the post-Human Space Marines had the preternatural swiftness of thought and body possessed by the Adeptus Custodes.
We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world.
I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.
for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.
The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.
The Brazen Drake who had spoken was thrown flat on his back by the tight burst of mass-reactive bolts.
he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!
pummelling the Brazen Drake with ammunition as he strode swiftly forward.
From here, Dessima could see half a dozen Brazen Drakes who had spilled through the bridge’s bulkhead door to support their Captain.
They added their own flashing blades to the storm of violence engulfing the Brazen Drakes.
We will not rest until every Brazen Drakes Space Marine, old or new, lies dead.
And yet you still think they aren't Brazen Drakes???
Jjohnso11 wrote:Just for you I'm going to quote all the times the Primaris in the story are referred to as Brazen Drakes. Which for some reason you're sure they aren't wearing the iconography or carrying personalized weapons of Brazen Drakes.
Spoiler:
For the fleet carrying the Brazen Drakes to meet their battle-brothers on Khassedur, this will have dire consequences for all…
Their duty had been to reach it, to deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields to their newly adopted home world, and to see that Chapter Master Kaslyn accepted the gift of Cawl’s Miracle.
The Greyshields’ leader was turning, eyes widening even as Tyvar raised his guardian spear. The three Brazen Drakes who flanked him moved almost as fast, but not even the post-Human Space Marines had the preternatural swiftness of thought and body possessed by the Adeptus Custodes.
We may have brethren even now fighting to restore the honour of the Brazen Drakes on that world.
I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers.
for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.
The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.
The Brazen Drake who had spoken was thrown flat on his back by the tight burst of mass-reactive bolts.
he reached for his own drake-embossed power sword. ‘Consider all outside our Chapter hostile! Seize the fleet!
pummelling the Brazen Drake with ammunition as he strode swiftly forward.
From here, Dessima could see half a dozen Brazen Drakes who had spilled through the bridge’s bulkhead door to support their Captain.
They added their own flashing blades to the storm of violence engulfing the Brazen Drakes.
We will not rest until every Brazen Drakes Space Marine, old or new, lies dead.
And yet you still think they aren't Brazen Drakes???
Well done for missing my point.
I'm saying that the 'Greyshields' as depicted in the story are not written like actual Greyshields. It's as simple as that. It's not a case that I don't think they're Brazen Drakes, that would make the MOST sense for the story. I'm saying that they're not Greyshields. Either they are Brazen Drakes, and so would have been already inducted formally (which they haven't been), or they are Greyshields, and so haven't been inducted or indoctrinated into the Chapter. So which are they? Brazen Drakes, or Greyshields?
If I wrote an extract where I described "Ultramarines in bright yellow armour shouting 'for Rogal Dorn!", those wouldn't be Ultramarines. That would be me as an author making a mistake. Why are you so sure the author isn't making mistakes here?
I am definitely missing your point.
If I understand this correctly - you are trying to argue that reinforcement Space Marines for the Brazen Drakes aren't Brazen Drakes. So the Custodes is bringing Ultramarines Primaris as reinforcements for the Brazen Drakes? Or are the Custodes bringing Imperial Fists as reinforcements to the Brazen Drakes? If the author wasn't talking about the reinforcements being Brazen Drakes why would he call them or refer to them as Brazen Drakes 13 times!
I just realized you think that the Greyshields still exist as a thing. They were disbanded and either made into new Chapters or sent as reinforcements to other Chapters. Not sure why that is relevant here.
Jjohnso11 wrote: I am definitely missing your point.
If I understand this correctly - you are trying to argue that reinforcement Space Marines for the Brazen Drakes aren't Brazen Drakes. So the Custodes is bringing Ultramarines Primaris as reinforcements for the Brazen Drakes? Or are the Custodes bringing Imperial Fists as reinforcements to the Brazen Drakes? If the author wasn't talking about the reinforcements being Brazen Drakes why would he call them or refer to them as Brazen Drakes 13 times!
I'm arguing that there are two potential outcomes, which are mutually exclusive.
A: These are Greyshields, fresh from the Indomitus Crusade, and who's geneseed comes directly from the stocks on Terra from one of the 9 Loyalist Legions. I'm going to assume Salamanders, because 'Drakes', but that's just for clarity. These 'Salamanders' Greyshields have fought the Indomitus Crusade as individuals assigned to different squads, and now, Guilliman has decreed for these 200 Marines, under command of Gerion, to join together and reinforce the Salamanders successor Chapter, the Brazen Drakes. The Greyshields wouldn't have been given any kind of additional hypnotherapy or treatment to help them fit in, aside from maybe some basic information provided by some official, stuff like their basic history, figures of note, territory, combat doctrine, etc, and so are not yet Brazen Drakes. They aren't even Salamanders - they're just Greyshields. They travel with the Custodes, who are there to ensure that the Chapter Master of the Brazen Drakes actually accepts them into his ranks and begins the actual process of seeing them educated and inducted into the Brazen Drakes.
This one assumes that the entire story is misguided, as the Custodian should have no reason to suspect the unaligned Greyshields would be related at all to the heresy of a Chapter they've never met.
B: These are Brazen Drakes, who have long been already inducted into the Chapter. They may have once been Greyshields, or maybe they were never part of the Greyshield host. These Marines may or may not have geneseed directly from the Terran stocks, or from the stocks on Khassedur. They have been indoctrinated in the ways of the Brazen Drakes, given bespoke equipment and teachings, and are now returning back to the Chapter after fighting in the Indomitus Crusade, alongside a Custodian, perhaps as a travelling companion as part of the campaign. This one assumes that any mention of the Marines as Greyshields, or how they're waiting to be accepted into the Chapter, is a mistake.
Now, the one that I think makes the most sense is the latter. Greyshields are not drawn from successor Chapters, they are drawn from the Legion stock. As a result, a "Brazen Drakes Greyshield" simply doesn't exist, as the Brazen Drakes aren't a Legion! The Greyshields were all put in mixed-Legion groups in the Indomitus Crusade, and only later on were put in similar genetic groups and sent off to form new Chapters and reinforce existing ones. As a result, they would be genetically closer to the Salamanders Chapter (if they are Salamanders successors) than to the actual Brazen Drakes, and would be made up of Marines who have not contact with the Drakes whatsoever.
So, either they're Greyshields, or they're Brazen Drakes. Either way, the story makes an error.
I just realized you think that the Greyshields still exist as a thing. They were disbanded and either made into new Chapters or sent as reinforcements to other Chapters. Not sure why that is relevant here.
Yeah, they were disbanded - which is exactly what we're talking about here. The Marines in the story are "apparently" Greyshields that have been sent as reinforcements to the Brazen Drakes. That doesn't mean they're Brazen Drakes Greyshields though! They would have been *insert Legion here* Greyshields, who would have been dispatched to reinforce a Chapter they would have had no contact with. They would have been as close to their new Chapter as they would any other successor Chapter of the same lineage.
So yes, I do understand what Greyshields are. And the ones in this story either are, and the entire thing is a write-off; or they aren't, and any mention of them as Greyshields is in error.
Now I've explained my point, do you see what I mean?
Jjohnso11 wrote: I am definitely missing your point.
If I understand this correctly - you are trying to argue that reinforcement Space Marines for the Brazen Drakes aren't Brazen Drakes. So the Custodes is bringing Ultramarines Primaris as reinforcements for the Brazen Drakes? Or are the Custodes bringing Imperial Fists as reinforcements to the Brazen Drakes? If the author wasn't talking about the reinforcements being Brazen Drakes why would he call them or refer to them as Brazen Drakes 13 times!
I'm arguing that there are two potential outcomes, which are mutually exclusive.
A: These are Greyshields, fresh from the Indomitus Crusade, and who's geneseed comes directly from the stocks on Terra from one of the 9 Loyalist Legions. I'm going to assume Salamanders, because 'Drakes', but that's just for clarity. These 'Salamanders' Greyshields have fought the Indomitus Crusade as individuals assigned to different squads, and now, Guilliman has decreed for these 200 Marines, under command of Gerion, to join together and reinforce the Salamanders successor Chapter, the Brazen Drakes. The Greyshields wouldn't have been given any kind of additional hypnotherapy or treatment to help them fit in, aside from maybe some basic information provided by some official, stuff like their basic history, figures of note, territory, combat doctrine, etc, and so are not yet Brazen Drakes. They aren't even Salamanders - they're just Greyshields. They travel with the Custodes, who are there to ensure that the Chapter Master of the Brazen Drakes actually accepts them into his ranks and begins the actual process of seeing them educated and inducted into the Brazen Drakes.
This one assumes that the entire story is misguided, as the Custodian should have no reason to suspect the unaligned Greyshields would be related at all to the heresy of a Chapter they've never met.
B: These are Brazen Drakes, who have long been already inducted into the Chapter. They may have once been Greyshields, or maybe they were never part of the Greyshield host. These Marines may or may not have geneseed directly from the Terran stocks, or from the stocks on Khassedur. They have been indoctrinated in the ways of the Brazen Drakes, given bespoke equipment and teachings, and are now returning back to the Chapter after fighting in the Indomitus Crusade, alongside a Custodian, perhaps as a travelling companion as part of the campaign. This one assumes that any mention of the Marines as Greyshields, or how they're waiting to be accepted into the Chapter, is a mistake.
Now, the one that I think makes the most sense is the latter. Greyshields are not drawn from successor Chapters, they are drawn from the Legion stock. As a result, a "Brazen Drakes Greyshield" simply doesn't exist, as the Brazen Drakes aren't a Legion! The Greyshields were all put in mixed-Legion groups in the Indomitus Crusade, and only later on were put in similar genetic groups and sent off to form new Chapters and reinforce existing ones. As a result, they would be genetically closer to the Salamanders Chapter (if they are Salamanders successors) than to the actual Brazen Drakes, and would be made up of Marines who have not contact with the Drakes whatsoever.
So, either they're Greyshields, or they're Brazen Drakes. Either way, the story makes an error.
I just realized you think that the Greyshields still exist as a thing. They were disbanded and either made into new Chapters or sent as reinforcements to other Chapters. Not sure why that is relevant here.
Yeah, they were disbanded - which is exactly what we're talking about here. The Marines in the story are "apparently" Greyshields that have been sent as reinforcements to the Brazen Drakes. That doesn't mean they're Brazen Drakes Greyshields though! They would have been *insert Legion here* Greyshields, who would have been dispatched to reinforce a Chapter they would have had no contact with. They would have been as close to their new Chapter as they would any other successor Chapter of the same lineage.
So yes, I do understand what Greyshields are. And the ones in this story either are, and the entire thing is a write-off; or they aren't, and any mention of them as Greyshields is in error.
Now I've explained my point, do you see what I mean?
I understand where you're coming from. I think the Primaris' origins are irrelevant. They are now Brazen Drakes, call their new chapter Battle Brothers, are willing to go to the surface and die fighting for the Chapter.
The narrative in this article is about a force of Primaris on their way to reinforce their Chapter (origins of Primaris = irrelevant). Their chapter is pronounced traitor (even the head Primaris sees this and knows its true). The Custodes tells the Primaris with him who are reinforcements for this Chapter (origin irrelevant) to give up their weapons and come into custody to determine if they are also tainted with chaos/heresy/traitors/etc. They refuse(confirming to the Custodes they are also traitors), he starts killing them, the entire Space Marine force across the fleet turns traitor, story over. I believe the author only put Greyshields in the story to give an origin to where the Marines came from to make sure those skeptical individuals don't make the statement that NuMarines just appear out of thin air. He may also be making a point about the Custodes jumping the gun on accusing them of heresy - BUT!! the Primaris confirm his suspicions (self fulfilling prophecy much) by resisting and then fighting back.
I'll remake my point - origin irrelevant to the narrative and the point the author is trying to make.
Jjohnso11 wrote: I understand where you're coming from. I think the Primaris' origins are irrelevant. They are now Brazen Drakes, call their new chapter Battle Brothers, are willing to go to the surface and die fighting for the Chapter.
Right - so they're not Greyshields. Good. That's exactly what I was saying - that they shouldn't be called Greyshields.
The narrative in this article is about a force of Primaris on their way to reinforce their Chapter (origins of Primaris = irrelevant).
Again, it *does* make a difference. It all boils down to 'are these returning reinforcements or not'. If they're returning (aka, actual Brazen Drakes), then they shouldn't be called Greyshields, and the whole bit about needing to meet with Kaslyn to accept "Cawl's Miracle" is in error. If they're meeting for the first time (aka, actual Greyshields), then they shouldn't be called Brazen Drakes, and the Custodian is way out of order, even for 40k standards.
Their chapter is pronounced traitor (even the head Primaris sees this and knows its true). The Custodes tells the Primaris with him who are reinforcements for this Chapter (origin irrelevant) to give up their weapons and come into custody to determine if they are also tainted with chaos/heresy/traitors/etc.
No - again, origin *does* matter here. If it was a simple as the Custodian just saying "you are both Space Marines, please surrender your weapons so I know to trust you", that would be different, but he doesn't say that.
He calls them traitors, which, depending on their origin, either makes total sense, or none at all.
If they are actual Brazen Drakes, and not Greyshields, there actually *is* a chance of them being traitors.
If they are actual Greyshields, and not Brazen Drakes, then there is no possible connection the Custodian could make that would make the Greyshields traitorous that wouldn't also imply every Space Marine of that lineage is corrupt.
They refuse(confirming to the Custodes they are also traitors), he starts killing them, the entire Space Marine force across the fleet turns traitor, story over.
Yeah, this part I don't have an issue with. Regardless of their true nature, the Marines provoke the Custodes. This is fine, within setting. The issue is that the Custodian shouldn't have even called them out if they were actual Greyshields.
I believe the author only put Greyshields in the story to give an origin to where the Marines came from to make sure those skeptical individuals don't make the statement that NuMarines just appear out of thin air.
Right - so he put that in as an error. Which is exactly what I've been saying.
Those Marines being Primaris literally isn't important to the story. Them being Greyshields doesn't have to be important to the story. The author trying to making it about Primaris actively harms the story because they mess up what a Greyshield is.
That's been my whole point!
He may also be making a point about the Custodes jumping the gun on accusing them of heresy - BUT!! the Primaris confirm his suspicions (self fulfilling prophecy much) by resisting and then fighting back.
Again, I don't have an issue about this part. The Marines accidentally proving the Custodian right doesn't change the fact that if those Marines were ACTUALLY Greyshields, the Custodian shouldn't have felt any need to threaten them.
I'll remake my point - origin irrelevant to the narrative and the point the author is trying to make.
And I disagree. You're right in that the origin of the Marines shouldn't matter, but the author tries to cram in something about their origin that actively takes away from the story they're telling. And unfortunately, if they're the ones bringing in that these are actually Greyshields, then it's very important to point out that this breaks the narrative and internal consistency.
I'm not trying to hate the story. I'm just pointing out that this could all easily be fixed if the entire "these are Greyshields visiting the Chapter for the first time" subplot was cut out. You could give me an hour, and I'd replace that whole thing with what is essentially "la la la, we're coming back home after a long campaign with a Custodes escort - OH NO, look what happened while we were gone!"
That would increase the moral ambiguity (are the Marines truly innocent? Did they know about this? Are they just defending their honour, or are they actually in league?) and more importantly, make everyone's reactions more believable.
the obvious answer is they where grey sheilds but when selected to join the braven drakes they where subjected to the useal psycho indoctrination proceesses in transit to better perpare them to join their chapter. remember warp travel isn't instant
BrianDavion wrote: the obvious answer is they where grey sheilds but when selected to join the braven drakes they where subjected to the useal psycho indoctrination proceesses in transit to better perpare them to join their chapter. remember warp travel isn't instant
It's just that we've never seen Greyshields be psycho-indoctrinated prior to their arrival. With nearly every Greyshield we've seen beforehand (Space Wolves/Wolfspear, Ultramarines, and Flesh Tearers), they don't seem to undergo specific indoctrination and instead their education is left to the Chapter itself when they arrive. I just don't buy that indoctrination prior to arrival is performed, which would leave the only connection between the Greyshields and actual Brazen Drakes as a shared Primarch - they wouldn't even share the same exact geneseed, because the Greyshields would take theirs from purer Terran stock, compared to the corrupted Drakes stock.
Whether you accept the idea of indoctrination en-route to their chapter ( which I think makes sense, and whether that’s been shown before is irrelevant to if it may or may not have happened in this time), perhaps you’ll be able to accept this angle:
They are Greyshields because they haven’t been delivered to their new chapter yet, but once they had a chapter to join assigned to them, the imperial records were updated to designate them as Brazen Drakes, while still being designated as Greyshields. The terms don’t need to be mutually exclusive from an Imperial bureaucracy standpoint.
When the Custodes arrived on the bridge, and assessed the situation he noted that the Inquisition has designated the Brazen Drakes as traitors. The Greyshields onboard are designated as Brazen Drakes, and are therefore also declared traitors by the Inquisition. The Custodes has very little leeway here. What little leeway he does have, he exercises by asking the Greyshield Brazen Drakes to disarm and come quietly, not once, but twice, rather than to begin summarily executing them which would be perfectly within his purview.
Aash wrote: Whether you accept the idea of indoctrination en-route to their chapter ( which I think makes sense, and whether that’s been shown before is irrelevant to if it may or may not have happened in this time), perhaps you’ll be able to accept this angle:
They are Greyshields because they haven’t been delivered to their new chapter yet, but once they had a chapter to join assigned to them, the imperial records were updated to designate them as Brazen Drakes, while still being designated as Greyshields. The terms don’t need to be mutually exclusive from an Imperial bureaucracy standpoint.
When the Custodes arrived on the bridge, and assessed the situation he noted that the Inquisition has designated the Brazen Drakes as traitors. The Greyshields onboard are designated as Brazen Drakes, and are therefore also declared traitors by the Inquisition. The Custodes has very little leeway here. What little leeway he does have, he exercises by asking the Greyshield Brazen Drakes to disarm and come quietly, not once, but twice, rather than to begin summarily executing them which would be perfectly within his purview.
That still kind of sidesteps Sgt_Smudge's point though. Even if they're technically beauracratically "grey shield bronze drakes," if the custodes is aware that they're grey shields who haven't even met this chapter before, then his response is still silly. Like, in that scenario, the custodes knows that these guys have never met a member of the heretical chapter to which they only belong on paper. Even if he's "legally" obligated to arrest them because of an obviously flawed by the book interpretation of the inquisitorial decree, he still approaches what he, in this scenario, knows to be a case of beauracratic error by being confrontational, dickish, and accusatory to the people that he knows are innocent.
The custodes response when the captain tries to logically talk through the situation is to shut down that attempt and straight up call the marine a traitor. So if the custodes is aware of their innocence, his actions are myopic and harmful to the imperium he serves.
Personally, I don't think this is out of character for the imperium or the setting, but I do think it's stupid. Imperials are stupid. Really, really stupid.
Aash wrote: Whether you accept the idea of indoctrination en-route to their chapter ( which I think makes sense, and whether that’s been shown before is irrelevant to if it may or may not have happened in this time), perhaps you’ll be able to accept this angle:
They are Greyshields because they haven’t been delivered to their new chapter yet, but once they had a chapter to join assigned to them, the imperial records were updated to designate them as Brazen Drakes, while still being designated as Greyshields. The terms don’t need to be mutually exclusive from an Imperial bureaucracy standpoint.
When the Custodes arrived on the bridge, and assessed the situation he noted that the Inquisition has designated the Brazen Drakes as traitors. The Greyshields onboard are designated as Brazen Drakes, and are therefore also declared traitors by the Inquisition. The Custodes has very little leeway here. What little leeway he does have, he exercises by asking the Greyshield Brazen Drakes to disarm and come quietly, not once, but twice, rather than to begin summarily executing them which would be perfectly within his purview.
That still kind of sidesteps Sgt_Smudge's point though. Even if they're technically beauracratically "grey shield bronze drakes," if the custodes is aware that they're grey shields who haven't even met this chapter before, then his response is still silly. Like, in that scenario, the custodes knows that these guys have never met a member of the heretical chapter to which they only belong on paper. Even if he's "legally" obligated to arrest them because of an obviously flawed by the book interpretation of the inquisitorial decree, he still approaches what he, in this scenario, knows to be a case of beauracratic error by being confrontational, dickish, and accusatory to the people that he knows are innocent.
Exactly. Custodes should know so much better than "well, they're TECHNICALLY Brazen Drakes, so they must be traitors". They know for a fact that these are Greyshields, they know for a fact that they've had no contact with the actual Brazen Drakes, so why bother doing the whole "loyalty test" thing?
It's precisely the problem I have with a lot of 40k's "grimdark" writing - it's not grimdark because it's actually effective but horrific, it's grimdark for the sake of it. It's grimdumb.
Compare the story we got with what I'd have rewritten it as: the Marines actually being established Brazen Drakes, returning back to their Chapter after a century of crusading, and finding their home in ruins and Chapter disgraced. Now, the Custodian being distrustful and hardline makes sense within the setting, as both we and the Custodian know that these Marines could easily be corrupted. Similarly, we can empathise with the Marines if they are innocent, because they're defending the their identity that they've held since their creation as a Space Marine. That's grimdark, not the grimdumb we got.
Wyldhunt wrote: The custodes response when the captain tries to logically talk through the situation
The captain's actions aren't logical though. Even Sgt_Smudge says that the sergent act like he would if he was already an actual member of the Brazen Drakes, not a grey shield.
Aash wrote: Whether you accept the idea of indoctrination en-route to their chapter ( which I think makes sense, and whether that’s been shown before is irrelevant to if it may or may not have happened in this time), perhaps you’ll be able to accept this angle:
They are Greyshields because they haven’t been delivered to their new chapter yet, but once they had a chapter to join assigned to them, the imperial records were updated to designate them as Brazen Drakes, while still being designated as Greyshields. The terms don’t need to be mutually exclusive from an Imperial bureaucracy standpoint.
When the Custodes arrived on the bridge, and assessed the situation he noted that the Inquisition has designated the Brazen Drakes as traitors. The Greyshields onboard are designated as Brazen Drakes, and are therefore also declared traitors by the Inquisition. The Custodes has very little leeway here. What little leeway he does have, he exercises by asking the Greyshield Brazen Drakes to disarm and come quietly, not once, but twice, rather than to begin summarily executing them which would be perfectly within his purview.
That still kind of sidesteps Sgt_Smudge's point though. Even if they're technically beauracratically "grey shield bronze drakes," if the custodes is aware that they're grey shields who haven't even met this chapter before, then his response is still silly. Like, in that scenario, the custodes knows that these guys have never met a member of the heretical chapter to which they only belong on paper. Even if he's "legally" obligated to arrest them because of an obviously flawed by the book interpretation of the inquisitorial decree, he still approaches what he, in this scenario, knows to be a case of beauracratic error by being confrontational, dickish, and accusatory to the people that he knows are innocent.
Exactly. Custodes should know so much better than "well, they're TECHNICALLY Brazen Drakes, so they must be traitors". They know for a fact that these are Greyshields, they know for a fact that they've had no contact with the actual Brazen Drakes, so why bother doing the whole "loyalty test" thing?
It's precisely the problem I have with a lot of 40k's "grimdark" writing - it's not grimdark because it's actually effective but horrific, it's grimdark for the sake of it. It's grimdumb.
Compare the story we got with what I'd have rewritten it as: the Marines actually being established Brazen Drakes, returning back to their Chapter after a century of crusading, and finding their home in ruins and Chapter disgraced. Now, the Custodian being distrustful and hardline makes sense within the setting, as both we and the Custodian know that these Marines could easily be corrupted. Similarly, we can empathise with the Marines if they are innocent, because they're defending the their identity that they've held since their creation as a Space Marine. That's grimdark, not the grimdumb we got.
Absolutely. If they'd spent any time at all with the Brazen Draks proper, there's an unlikely but concerning chance of corruption. Chaos is like glitter. It gets everywhere and spreads to everything glittered objects touch. But these guys have never even been near the chaos glitter in question. Agreed t hat nixing the "grey shields" part instantly makes the story better.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote: The custodes response when the captain tries to logically talk through the situation
The captain's actions aren't logical though. Even Sgt_Smudge says that the sergent act like he would if he was already an actual member of the Brazen Drakes, not a grey shield.
Fair, but that's more a callout of questionable internal consistency. The marine was still basically going, "Woah. Let's talk about this," and the custodes responded with, "I won't hear you out. To me, you're already definitely a traitor because we pencilled in the words "Brazen Drakes" on your name tag yesterday. Even though I myself know you've never had contact with any Brazen Drakes."
I liked this short story, one of my favourites from them so far in this recent set. It may well be that the Custodian was privy to more information than shown in the story - perhaps the Greyshield Brazen Drakes have had some communication with the main Chapter while en route that wasn’t explained, perhaps the Custodian thought there was even a minute chance that the corruption had already spread to the Greyshields and decided that the fastest way to determine that was the issue an abrupt test of loyalty. Regardless, it’s well within the purview of the Custodes and Inquisition to make a decision like this based on little-to-no evidence and well within their power to perform a test in any manner they see fit. The Greyshields seem to be spread amongst the fleet so if they are heretics they’d be capable of huge damage, so extreme measures could be argued to be justified.
Even if it is within the power of the Custodes to start purging multiple Companies-worth of Marines, and even if there was some reason to suspect corruption, Tyvar would still be an idiot for causing a situation where those Marines who are spread throughout his fleet are now in open revolt against the other Imperial forces.
If he wanted to kill them all, why not get them to gather in one place, on one ship first; or fire on them as they head down to the planet; or bombard them once they've made planetfall?
It's so often the case with GW's fiction that the characters/factions seem to be left holding an idiot ball for no apparent reason.
Lord Damocles wrote: Even if it is within the power of the Custodes to start purging multiple Companies-worth of Marines, and even if there was some reason to suspect corruption, Tyvar would still be an idiot for causing a situation where those Marines who are spread throughout his fleet are now in open revolt against the other Imperial forces.
If he wanted to kill them all, why not get them to gather in one place, on one ship first; or fire on them as they head down to the planet; or bombard them once they've made planetfall?
It's so often the case with GW's fiction that the characters/factions seem to be left holding an idiot ball for no apparent reason.
Moves like those could illicit suspicion from the Marines that steps are being taken against them and so allow them to enact their heresy (if they are indeed heretics). For whatever the reason the Custodes acted and however it was persecuted I’m content to assume it was necessary (or at least justified) given the situation. Seeing the outcome we can know that the ends justified the means as the Marines disobeyed an order from the Adeptus Custodes on the matters of acting against known heretics (by that I mean the Brazen Drakes on planet).
It could even be decided in a later story that the Custodian acted rashly here (certainly an understandable and very interesting outcome) and that they will face some sort of censure for it but that isn’t for the Marines in question to decide.
'Illicit suspicion' like calling them all traitors did..? And then starting a battle on the ship's bridge...
Yeah, not seeing how Tyvar's solution is any better there.
And remember, this guy is supposed to be a 'supreme tactician' who's 'sublimely skilled, strategic and tactical nous is little short of supernatural' (Codex: Adeptus Custodes (8th ed.), pg.8 (paraphrased).
Also: 'The warriors of the Adeptus Custodes disregard the idea of blind obedience, and look with disdain upon those who follow the orders of their superiors without question.'
'Shield-Captains are also master diplomats' (pg.37)
I'm not getting any of that from my dude Tyvar.
Lord Damocles wrote: 'Illicit suspicion' like calling them all traitors did..? And then starting a battle on the ship's bridge...
Yeah, not seeing how Tyvar's solution is any better there.
And remember, this guy is supposed to be a 'supreme tactician' who's 'sublimely skilled, strategic and tactical nous is little short of supernatural' (Codex: Adeptus Custodes (8th ed.), pg.8 (paraphrased).
Also: 'The warriors of the Adeptus Custodes disregard the idea of blind obedience, and look with disdain upon those who follow the orders of their superiors without question.'
'Shield-Captains are also master diplomats' (pg.37)
I'm not getting any of that from my dude Tyvar.
Fair enough, nothing wrong with having different opinions I just wanted to explain my reasons for being content with the story. As the Custodes are sublime tacticians I’m happy to believe that this was the best outcome as the Custodian saw it. The might look disdainfully upon those who follow orders blindly but I’m sure they would certainly expect such obedience from the Marines in this situation, as they would from almost anyone they issue orders to.
Wyldhunt wrote: Fair, but that's more a callout of questionable internal consistency. The marine was still basically going, "Woah. Let's talk about this," and the custodes responded with, "I won't hear you out. To me, you're already definitely a traitor because we pencilled in the words "Brazen Drakes" on your name tag yesterday. Even though I myself know you've never had contact with any Brazen Drakes."
Remember: the Custodes has been with the marines for long before the story starts. He likely has already noticed that they act like they were already part of the Brazen Drake chapter, whyever that happens.
xlDuke wrote:It may well be that the Custodian was privy to more information than shown in the story - perhaps the Greyshield Brazen Drakes have had some communication with the main Chapter while en route that wasn’t explained
Well then that really should have been explained, shouldn't it?
Basically, there's definitely a degree of not mentioning important information or the author not understanding the relationship the Marines have with their new hosts.
perhaps the Custodian thought there was even a minute chance that the corruption had already spread to the Greyshields and decided that the fastest way to determine that was the issue an abrupt test of loyalty.
As I've said, there's plenty of cases of Marines having far more odds of being corrupted (see, entire Chapters who have had one of their own, or even full companies fall to Chaos - see the Gaudinian Heresy of the Iron Hands) and the Custodes doing nothing about it.
If Custodes are so aggressive about rooting out heresy, why haven't they done anything about far more suspect Chapters?
Regardless, it’s well within the purview of the Custodes and Inquisition to make a decision like this based on little-to-no evidence and well within their power to perform a test in any manner they see fit.
It's well within their authority yes, but that doesn't explain the why? Why does the Custodian feel that these Greyshields (who have, to our knowledge, and therefore, the only knowledge we have, never communicated with the corrupt Chapter) are a threat? He has as much reason to distrust the Greyshields as he does the human servants aboard the vessel. The ship's captain, every one of the crew, even arguably the Sisters of Silence - they are all equally as likely of being corrupted. Why does he single out the Greyshields?
The Greyshields seem to be spread amongst the fleet so if they are heretics they’d be capable of huge damage, so extreme measures could be argued to be justified.
The same can be said of the human servants aboard each ship. Why the Greyshields?
Are we missing that the point of the story seems to be indicating the ties between Adeptus Astartes battle brothers even though they've never met?
To Sgt_Smudge and others, it seems that they think Gerion jumping to defend his chapter's honor is out of character (as a Greyshield), but to me that read as the entire point of the story. That even though Gerion had never met any Brazen Drakes he still viewed them as his battle-brothers. He had some, and let's consider the other stories about the Brazen Drakes here, mystical non-physical connection to his chapter.
Perhaps this... mystical non-physical connection he and his Greyshields had... could be related to the propensity for members of the chapter to be psykers?
Or it could even just be what the Custodes says, and that Adeptus Astartes stick together to a fault. He literally says it in the story. If that isn't the author hammering the point home heavy-handedly, I don't know what is.
I think it’s perfectly good storytelling to not include every piece of information, it is just a short story and it adds to the dramatics. I don’t think the author misunderstands anything - it’s their story after all and to my eyes is consistent enough with the background. The way the Custodian handles the situation could be the entire point of the story in the eyes of the author, perhaps it’s meant to show its/his callousness when dealing with Marines, juxtaposed against how we’ve seen similar situations handled.
Your other examples are similar but aren’t quite the same - in this story we’ve got a ranking Custodian (probably commanding the entire fleet as well as the mission) who is perfectly placed to react to the situation as it unfolds. I’m unaware of any similar stories where the Custodes are immediately on-hand instead of acting after the fact or announcing judgement on a prior event.
I can’t explain why the human contingent of the fleet isn’t also under immediate scrutiny but as is fitting of the Custodes I’d imagine that will all be studied as soon as is possible, if any parts of the Custodes orders aren’t followed out to satisfaction when it comes to purging the Marines I would think those individuals would be similarly disposed of at the end of a guardian spear.
It certainly would be nice to know in detail why it happened the way it did but that’s just not what this story is about, this story is about the event itself. Were it a novel I would imagine we would get a deeper look at the whys and wherefores.
Rihgu wrote: Are we missing that the point of the story seems to be indicating the ties between Adeptus Astartes battle brothers even though they've never met?
To Sgt_Smudge and others, it seems that they think Gerion jumping to defend his chapter's honor is out of character (as a Greyshield)
Not really. My *biggest* problem is the Custodian even suspecting Gerion in the first place.
As a Greyshield, Gerion should have absolutely no connection to the Brazen Drakes over any other Chapter of his bloodline that could be a a cause for corruption.
Perhaps this... mystical non-physical connection he and his Greyshields had... could be related to the propensity for members of the chapter to be psykers?
Why are the Brazen Drakes susceptible to this psychic affliction though? What causes it? Let's break down possible things.
Geneseed? Most likely. But the Greyshields wouldn't have Brazen Drakes geneseed. They'd have the same geneseed as their initial Primarch. Working under the assumption the Brazen Drakes are Salamanders successors* (because 'Drakes'), the Greyshields would have Salamanders geneseed, not Brazen Drakes stock.
Training/indoctrination? Possible. But Greyshields aren't indoctrinated until arrival at their new home, so would be identical to every other Greyshield from their lineage.
Tainted recruiting stock? Potentially. But the Greyshields aren't necessarily drawn from recruits of their to-be home. Sure, it's possible that a Greyshield could have been recruited from Khassedur, but that would rely on Khassedur being a recruiting world from M31, the genetic defect being present in their recruiting stock from that time and being undiscovered that whole time, and that Marine being chosen to return to Khassedur as part of the new Brazen Drakes Primaris. And that's just the odds for ONE Marine. You're saying that there were 200 Marines taken from Khassedur, assuming that Khassedur was even an Imperial world in M31, and they all returned as part of the same force?
What other thing could cause this psychic curse that apparently *only* affects Brazen Drakes, and even Marines that have never met, been trained, or even share the same geneseed as them?
Or it could even just be what the Custodes says, and that Adeptus Astartes stick together to a fault. He literally says it in the story. If that isn't the author hammering the point home heavy-handedly, I don't know what is.
If that's truly the case, and Space Marines will always stick together to a fault, why haven't the Custodes killed off every Space Marine Chapter that's had members turn traitor?
Like, I don't know, the Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Blood Angels, at the very least?
Perhaps because the way things played out are better suited for the sake of the story being told? That the author is exercising some dramatic license? That the author doesn’t feel it necessary to be utterly beholden to every other piece of fiction written in the setting, but rather views it as a broad canvas on which to explore particular interpretations? Maybe the fact that the story is a Short Story interested in make a single dramatic statement as opposed to a novel more interested in exploring the personnel motivations and soul searching of individual characters, or that it’s not primarily interested in highly detailed in universe referencing and intertextual consistency at the expense of the story being told?
Maybe the author has a different perspective to you on the mindset of Custodes , space marines et al.
Myself and many others have offered perfectly plausible explanations for the whys of the story including the motivations and thoughts of those involved as well as the use of the terminology in the story. At this point it’s getting to the point of trolling. You dislike the story, we get it. If you aren’t looking for plausible explanations for perceived short comings and (disputed) plot holes, I’m not sure why you are engaging in this thread tbh.
xlDuke wrote: I think it’s perfectly good storytelling to not include every piece of information, it is just a short story and it adds to the dramatics.
I disagree strongly. I'm not saying you need EVERY piece of information, but if you're withholding information that actually explains the scene without a good reason for why that feature wasn't explained (ie, for a plot twist), that's just poor writing, IMO.
If withholding information harms the story's consistency and internal logic (which this one does), that's bad.
I don’t think the author misunderstands anything - it’s their story after all and to my eyes is consistent enough with the background.
And to my eyes and understanding, it's not consistent with other pieces of information.
Sure, it's their story. But it's their story being presented as canon. 40k is bigger than any single author.
The way the Custodian handles the situation could be the entire point of the story in the eyes of the author, perhaps it’s meant to show its/his callousness when dealing with Marines, juxtaposed against how we’ve seen similar situations handled.
They could have shown exactly the same callousness if they'd made those Marines Brazen Drakes and not Greyshields from the start. A Custodian arresting and killing Marines for the sins of their brethren is callous, no matter how you look at it, but having the Custodian actually have a reason to beyond "hurr conflikt" enriches the story immensely.
I mean, there's people suggesting that the Custodian only challenges the Marines because he wants to see if they're loyal - without any reason to suspect they were disloyal prior!
Your other examples are similar but aren’t quite the same - in this story we’ve got a ranking Custodian (probably commanding the entire fleet as well as the mission) who is perfectly placed to react to the situation as it unfolds. I’m unaware of any similar stories where the Custodes are immediately on-hand instead of acting after the fact or announcing judgement on a prior event.
That doesn't change the fact that Custodians should still be acting against Chapters with known traitors, unless you're implying that the Custodes are so lazy they can't be bothered to deal with something unless it's immediately in their field of vision.
They could easily do things about the Chapters with noted traitor elements. They have the manpower. They have the ships. They have the authority. Why haven't they, if they're so obsessed with killing Marines for the slightest trace of corruption?
Were it a novel I would imagine we would get a deeper look at the whys and wherefores.
Yeah, perhaps we would. But that's not what we got. So I'm judging it based on what we know, what we were shown, and I believe it to be deeply contradictory, and at odds with other pieces of information in the setting. Literally, had it not mentioned Greyshields, I'd be shouting my praises. But that one feature alone derails the entire story.
If I wrote a piece of fiction about Ultramarines, but I kept talking about their bright yellow armour and closed fist sigil, no matter how good my fiction was, it would still be flawed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aash wrote: Perhaps because the way things played out are better suited for the sake of the story being told?
What does mentioning Greyshields add to the story?
That the author is exercising some dramatic license?
Dramatic license at the cost of breaking recent continuity? Was mentioning Greyshields really worth it?
That the author doesn’t feel it necessary to be utterly beholden to every other piece of fiction written in the setting, but rather views it as a broad canvas on which to explore particular interpretations?
It's not like their entire thing is flawed. It is literally one word, one phrase, that is inconsistent.
What was the point of including that? For the sake of the story, the narrative, the setting - why bring it up? What does that add?
Maybe the fact that the story is a Short Story interested in make a single dramatic statement as opposed to a novel more interested in exploring the personnel motivations and soul searching of individual characters, or that it’s not primarily interested in highly detailed in universe referencing and intertextual consistency at the expense of the story being told?
So why mention Greyshields at all if that's not what they're interested in talking about? Again, it's not like they had to mention them at all. Greyshields were deliberately added into the story, and IMO, derailed the otherwise excellent story and theme.
Maybe the author has a different perspective to you on the mindset of Custodes , space marines et al.
That wouldn't be just different to me, that would be a different perspective to the Custodes Codex, Dark Imperium, the various pieces of fiction explaining and featuring Greyshields, etc. Bringing Greyshields into the story (wholly unnecessarily, I might add) breaks internal consistency.
Myself and many others have offered perfectly plausible explanations for the whys of the story including the motivations and thoughts of those involved as well as the use of the terminology in the story.
And I've pointed how how those "perfectly plausible explanations" don't hold up with other pieces of 40k material.
What's wrong with admitting "maybe the author was confused and messed things up"?
At this point it’s getting to the point of trolling. You dislike the story, we get it.
You clearly don't, because I like the story. What I don't like is the incorrect terminology used in it that actively harms the story being told. I like the story, and want it to be better!
No-one has explained to me why the Marines being Greyshields is so critical to the narrative, and why, if they were just normal Brazen Drakes coming back home after a long crusade, the story's themes would be any different or any worse.
If you aren’t looking for plausible explanations for perceived short comings and (disputed) plot holes, I’m not sure why you are engaging in this thread tbh.
If I was after after plausible explanations, I'd still be waiting.
I'm engaging in the thread to dispute these "plausible explanations", because they simply don't hold water. I don't get what's wrong with admitting that maybe, just maybe, the author messed up on some details? That doesn't change there's a really nice core story and theme at play. But that doesn't mean it's flawless!
Marines stick to their chapters but a part of that is loyalty to the Imperium. Once a marine goes traitor they are no longer part of their chapter and are probably hated more than normal chaos marines.
Even if all the non greyshield marines in the chapter went traitor the greyshields would probably view themselves as the last drakes left because the others are traitors or died.
pm713 wrote: Marines stick to their chapters but a part of that is loyalty to the Imperium. Once a marine goes traitor they are no longer part of their chapter and are probably hated more than normal chaos marines.
Even if all the non greyshield marines in the chapter went traitor the greyshields would probably view themselves as the last drakes left because the others are traitors or died.
Maybe, but I'm not sure the Greyshields would have *that* much attachment to the Brazen Drakes identity. However, I'd actually be really interested in a story like that - of Marines taking up the mantle of a Chapter they've never known and seeing themselves as the last of an identity they're finding out for themselves. I've heard of Chapter taking up the names and colours of dead Chapters before, but never of a Chapter that's still not "dead" yet - I think would be a really interesting story!
If there is even the slightest doubt of a Chapter’s loyalty, and there’s the opportunity to end any potential threat in a single stroke? You take it.
Does Tyvar end the potential threat, though? Or does he create a situation where he has 200 Marines spread throughout his fleet who are now in open revolt where they weren't before?
Those 200 or so Astartes are not going anywhere. Their locations are known. They’re not getting reinforcements.
Yes there will be a Butcher’s Bill by the end of the affair. But better that than letting potential traitors the chance to rearm and head out into the wider Galaxy.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I don’t see any issues with it.
The Custodes have absolute authority, probs more so than an Inquisitor.
Right now? The Imperium is sorely pressed. Yes they have near limitless resources, but those are still spread thin.
If there is even the slightest doubt of a Chapter’s loyalty, and there’s the opportunity to end any potential threat in a single stroke? You take it.
Better you lose roughly 1,000 Space Marines now, than have to hunt them down and soak the damage they do during said pursuit.
But *was* there a slightest doubt of the Greyshield's loyalty? Before the Custodian forced the Greyshield's hand, what evidence was there of them being sympathetic to the Brazen Drakes? Genetically? No special link (at least, that wouldn't mean every Marine of that Primarch's lineage was also a traitor). Training? We're shown that Greyshields don't get hypno-indoctrinated. Just for being Space Marines? Why aren't all Marines held to the same standard?
I'm not disputing that the Custodian has every *right* to do what they want, but what was the reason? There was no reason at all that doesn't incriminate every Space Marine in the galaxy: so why don't the Custodes arrest every Space Marine?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But better that than letting potential traitors the chance to rearm and head out into the wider Galaxy.
Again, potential traitors. By that logic, isn't every citizen of the Imperium, let alone Space Marine, a potential traitor? If the litmus test for "potential traitor" is "someone vaguely associated with you turned traitor", they why haven't Chapters with confirmed heretics, Guardsmen recruiting worlds which have spawned traitors, or Mechanicum worlds which have produced rogue members all been put to the torch?
What is the degree to which the Custodes regard people as "potential" traitors? Unlike the Inquisition, who aren't a unified body, or even individually powerful, the Custodes have the authority, collective beliefs (generally), and means by which to hold entire Chapters accountable. Why are the Brazen Drakes Greyshields punished for infractions that other Chapters have committed to a far worse degree?
Again, to make it clear, I'm not arguing that the Imperium is tolerant or isn't steeped in paranoia. I'm just disputing to what degree they act on that paranoia. Accusing 200 Marines of corruption because a completely unrelated Chapter turned traitor flies in the face of what I'd expect from a Custodes.
They have absolute authority. Given the Imperium will gladly wipe out a planet to root out Heresy, is the loss of a Chapter so different, especially when you consider the potential harm they could do?
The Custodes ordered them to stand down. They did not. That's the evidence of Heresy. It's right there.
The Custodes asked twice when he had all the proof he needed that the seed of Heresy had been planted the first time.
He attempted to control the situation and keep it from escalating to 200 rogue marine running rampant in his fleet, but it failed because the marines where Heretics.
I don't understand what he should have done instead, even following real world logic.
1. There is a chapter of heretic marines on the planet you're orbiting.
2. You have reinforcements for that chapter on board your ship.
3. Adeptus Astartes have extremely strong feelings of fraternity.
4. Even exposure to Chaos can turn chapters.
So what do you do? After taking in all that information, you order (you do not politely ask, you're a military superior, not a buddy) them to stand down while you further evaluate their disposition and gather more information about the situation on the ground. Oh, they don't stand down and they immediately begin vouching for their corrupted brothers? Okay, this is a really bad situation for the Custodes, so he resolved it per the Grimdarkness of the 41st Millenium.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:The potential is all a Custodes needs though.
They have absolute authority. Given the Imperium will gladly wipe out a planet to root out Heresy, is the loss of a Chapter so different, especially when you consider the potential harm they could do?
Right, yeah, but why do these Greyshields have more potential than the Iron Hands? If the Custodes are happy to demand these Marines stand down because a completely unrelated Chapter did something wrong, why aren't they also demanding the Wolves come to heel because of their own rogue members in the Gaudinian Heresy?
Rihgu wrote:The Custodes ordered them to stand down. They did not. That's the evidence of Heresy. It's right there.
Yes, but I'm asking why the Custodian asked them them stand down in the first place. The Marines ultimately doom themselves, but not before the Custodian already plays his hand.
That's the thing I'm debating here, not whatever happened afterwards. How the Marines reacted is irrelevant for answering why the Custodian accused them of corruption in the first place. What you're doing is saying "the policeman found evidence at this person's house, therefore they must be guilty", and ignoring why the policeman got a warrant to search the otherwise completely innocuous house in the first place. (And yes, I know the Imperium doesn't work on our legal principles, but we have enough demonstration from the Custodes, from the fact that they've not exterminated the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands and nearly every other Chapter, that they don't just arrest on such flimsy charges).
1. There is a chapter of heretic marines on the planet you're orbiting. 2. You have reinforcements for that chapter on board your ship. 3. Adeptus Astartes have extremely strong feelings of fraternity. 4. Even exposure to Chaos can turn chapters.
You ignore the fact that these reinforcements have never met the Chapter they're reinforcing, and haven't had any kind of exposure that you couldn't have known about. There is absolutely no reason the Marines they were escorting were in any way corrupted beyond any other loyal Chapter, so why accuse them of corruption?
If those are the requirements for arresting those Marines, why don't the Custodes do it to every First Founding Chapter?
So what do you do? After taking in all that information, you order (you do not politely ask, you're a military superior, not a buddy) them to stand down while you further evaluate their disposition and gather more information about the situation on the ground. Oh, they don't stand down and they immediately begin vouching for their corrupted brothers? Okay, this is a really bad situation for the Custodes, so he resolved it per the Grimdarkness of the 41st Millenium.
Yes, they doom themselves, but that doesn't change the fact the Custodian essentially RDM'd the Marines. Tell me, are you familiar with games like Trouble in Terrorist Town, or similar games of hidden identity, or what RDM means? Random Death Match, it basically means when a player kills another for no reason in a hidden allegiance game. There's a lot of controversy around RDM, especially when it results in the killing of someone who genuinely was bad. Sure, you succeeded, you killed a bad guy - but that doesn't change the fact that you had no reason to do it. That's exactly what you're describing - "it was okay for the Custodian to accuse someone he had no real reason to distrust because he was proven right after the fact!" That's inconsistent with what we know from 40k (because we don't see Custodians going around to First Founding Chapters and accusing them or heresy because completely unrelated Chapters fell to Chaos). Yes, everyone is held suspect, and retribution is swift and violent, but people don't just go around accusing completely unrelated groups because someone else was a heretic, and that's certainly not what Custodes are described as doing.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It also helps portray The Imperium as not being all Happy Clappy just because Guilliman has returned.
They’re pulling mostly in the same direction, but the Custodes duty comes first, every time.
And why couldn't that same story have been done without any mention of Greyshields? Because that's the issue I have here - the fact the Custodian reacted like that to a completely unrelated group of Marines. Had those Marines been actual Brazen Drakes, I wouldn't be saying this.
That's all it is - remove mention of Greyshields, remove mention of "accepting Cawl's Gift". The story is fixed. Why is that so hard to understand?
I think it's worth going back to the story and reviewing it:
- "Apprehend these traitors." as Shield-Captain Tyvar draws is spear and points his gun at the captain.
- Gerion starts to say "Shield-Captain..."
- "You do not address me, Gerion. You do not look at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with your brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined."
"Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned. This may be a mistake, some trick of the enemy. We may have brethren even now attempting to restore the honor of the Brazen Drakes on the world. ... I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers."
It's 40k. You're guilty until proven innocent. Especially when heresy is concerned. And here you've got the Primaris Captain going "I'm willing to ignore an Inquisition edict in order to try to prove the honor of these fellow Space Marines who I've never met."
How, exactly, was that supposed to work out? When a chapter becomes heretics, they don't all just rush out to the Chaos Spikes and Bits store.
Yeah, on the one side, it's the terrible "I knew the suspect was going to resist arrest, so I pulled my gun out, thus escalating the situation and causing what I suspected to happen to happen" bad cop situation. On the other side, it's still the situation where the Captain is NOT saying "OMG, I can't believe we were sent here to reinforce a bunch of filthy traitors! Purge the heretics!"
Because, again, what in the Emperor's Name did the rookie Captain think was going to happen? "I'm going to call up the Crimson Drakes, and by the Emperor's Good Will the person answering is going to be a loyalist and not a Filthy Traitor Acting Like A Loyalist." Or "Hold on. I know the Inquisition says that these people are traitors, but I think we need an independent fact finding mission into this war zone to see what's really happening." The Inquisition response to any of that would be to do what Tyvar did.
If the story was trying to illustrate a conflict between naive new Primaris and the established order, or that the people involved with "Cawl's Miracle" (presumably Guillman and the rest) were more open minded than everyone else thinks they should be, then I think it works.
solkan wrote: I think it's worth going back to the story and reviewing it:
- "Apprehend these traitors." as Shield-Captain Tyvar draws is spear and points his gun at the captain. - Gerion starts to say "Shield-Captain..." - "You do not address me, Gerion. You do not look at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with your brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined." "Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned. This may be a mistake, some trick of the enemy. We may have brethren even now attempting to restore the honor of the Brazen Drakes on the world. ... I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers."
It's 40k. You're guilty until proven innocent.
So where are these Custodes fleets going out and demanding the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, etc etc bend the knee and get detained, hmm?
No. 40k *isn't* guilty until innocent. It's innocent, until you do the slightest thing wrong, and then you are utterly destroyed. That innocence hadn't been broken until the Custodian accused them of something they had no reason to suspect.
If that had been an RPG I was DMing, and the Custodian did that, I'd have called them out for being OOC. It was completely irrational, even for 40k standards, to expect Greyshields to be in league in any way with the traitor Marines. Had they not been Greyshields? Different story. But unfortunately, as much as I mention how simple it would be to just agree that calling them Greyshields was an author mistake, no-one seems to buy it.
Especially when heresy is concerned. And here you've got the Primaris Captain going "I'm willing to ignore an Inquisition edict in order to try to prove the honor of these fellow Space Marines who I've never met."
How, exactly, was that supposed to work out?
Yet again, you've missed my point. The Marine absolutely signs his own death warrant by doing that. It doesn't change the fact that Custodes had no reason to suspect them in the first place. Seriously, what is so hard to understand about that?
If the story was trying to illustrate a conflict between naive new Primaris and the established order, or that the people involved with "Cawl's Miracle" (presumably Guillman and the rest) were more open minded than everyone else thinks they should be, then I think it works.
Except it just paints the Custodian (who is described in other material as being expert diplomats and above the whole 'hurr durr heresy lol' mindset) as committing an RDM and finding justification after the fact?
Want to showcase the "conflict between the naive new Primaris and established order"? Give the established order a REASON to distrust the Primaris beyond "you're supposed to be their reinforcements, even though I know you've never met and there's no way you could have been corrupted".
Simple fix? Have the Marines be the first one to react. Have the entire thing start off with the Custodes saying "ah well, looks like the Marines on that planet are traitors, you guys are coming with us to exterminate them", and have Gerion say "hold on, what if this is all a big misunderstanding" - THEN the Custodian has a reason, and the story can play on normally. But as it currently is? It's a mess.
Just to reinforce: I like the core story. I like how it reinforces the Imperium is brutal and unforgiving and takes no chances. I can even appreciate the idea of "new vs old" if that's what they were going for. But their execution raises so many internal issues of consistency and plain stupidity that there's no way I can look at it and not want to do the tiniest, smallest of edits to make it fit.
And so far, no-one has told me why my amendments detract in any way from the original themes and ideas, or why there's no way that the inconsistencies can't be explained by simple authorial mistakes?
You keep asking why the Custodes haven't done this to any of the 1st Founding chapters. Where are the events where a Custodes Shield Captain has been on board a fleet to deliver reinforcements to Ultramar to discover the Ultramarines have turned traitor? There aren't any? Well, that's why the Custodes haven't purged the Ultramarines because some Ultramarines have gone heretic.
Also the Custodes haven't been out and about doing anything for something like, 10,000 years or so.
You're conflating "Brazen Drakes have gone traitor, therefore their Greyshield reinforcements are also guilty" with "The Astral Chickens have gone traitor, therefore their parent chapter are also traitors".
I get the line of logic you're following but it doesn't really ring true. The problem isn't that the Brazen Drakes and therefore everybody associated with them are traitors - it's that the Brazen Drakes went Traitor and the Greyshields defied a direct order to stand down while the Custodes figured out what's happening.
Yes, he accused them perhaps before he had adequate reason to. However, ultimately, his order was just for them to stand down while he figured things out. He happens to naturally distrust Astartes, so he added a little bit more bite to it than needed. However, the Astartes IMMEDIATELY proved him correct by disregarding his order and standing up for their heretic brothers. They fought in the Indomitus Crusade, they know how heresy works.
And so far, no-one has told me why my amendments detract in any way from the original themes and ideas, or why there's no way that the inconsistencies can't be explained by simple authorial mistakes?
You're one of the few people who sees any inconsistencies, which is why nobody else is trying to explain them away.
Rihgu wrote: You keep asking why the Custodes haven't done this to any of the 1st Founding chapters. Where are the events where a Custodes Shield Captain has been on board a fleet to deliver reinforcements to Ultramar to discover the Ultramarines have turned traitor? There aren't any? Well, that's why the Custodes haven't purged the Ultramarines because some Ultramarines have gone heretic.
If they're happy to accuse these Greyshields because they happy to be ever so slightly related, but don't have the effort to go and humble First Founders with confirmed traitors, then that just makes the Custodes look completely lazy, doesn't it?
Like, you're saying that the Custdoes are totally ruthless and hardline and super duper dedicated to rooting out heresy, but they can't be bothered to go to Ultramar and bring them to heel? Which is it?
Also the Custodes haven't been out and about doing anything for something like, 10,000 years or so.
And now they are, and can. I'm sure their vastly extensive intelligence networks can find out about things like Svane Vulfbad or the Gaudinian Heresy. Now they're out and about, if they're so ruthless, why haven't they paid the Iron Hands a visit?
You're conflating "Brazen Drakes have gone traitor, therefore their Greyshield reinforcements are also guilty" with "The Astral Chickens have gone traitor, therefore their parent chapter are also traitors". I get the line of logic you're following but it doesn't really ring true. The problem isn't that the Brazen Drakes and therefore everybody associated with them are traitors - it's that the Brazen Drakes went Traitor and the Greyshields defied a direct order to stand down while the Custodes figured out what's happening.
The Greyshields weren't given an order to stand down! They were told at gunpoint that they were all traitors! That's a world of difference apart from "direct order to stand down".
Had the Custodian given a "stand down" order, I'd agree, but that's not what happened. The only similarity the Greyshields and the Brazen Drakes share is genetic heritage - the Custodian essentially accused every Greyshield on that ship of being a traitor simply because of their genetic affiliation. That is absolutely identical to asking the Blood Angels to surrender because of the acts of the Knights of Blood, or the Ultramarines/Dark Angels because of the acts of the Astral Claws. There is no reason that the Greyshields should be associated with the actions of the Brazen Drakes, and other Chapters shouldn't.
Yes, he accused them perhaps before he had adequate reason to.
Finally. You admit he didn't have adequate reason. That's my whole point.
However, ultimately, his order was just for them to stand down while he figured things out.
No, it wasn't. Verbatim, his order was "Apprehend these traitors." Not "stand down", not "turn over your weapons", not "sit down". His immediate orders were to arrest them and call them traitors. His secondary orders were no better: "You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with all of your battle-brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined." That's not "stand down", that's 'You're an enemy, and I'm going to decide how to punish you later'.
The Custodian had passed judgement on them before they'd spoken a word. That isn't the same as standing down.
He happens to naturally distrust Astartes, so he added a little bit more bite to it than needed.
Ah yes, calling people traitors is "a little bit more bite", is it?
However, the Astartes IMMEDIATELY proved him correct by disregarding his order and standing up for their heretic brothers.
I'm not disputing that. That still doesn't change the fact that the Custodian essentially acted without any reason. If I went outside and stabbed someone, and then found out they'd just stolen from a shop, I'd still have stabbed that man with no evidence.
And so far, no-one has told me why my amendments detract in any way from the original themes and ideas, or why there's no way that the inconsistencies can't be explained by simple authorial mistakes?
You're one of the few people who sees any inconsistencies, which is why nobody else is trying to explain them away.
No, but you've not told me at all why my amendments are bad, regardless. Irrespective if you think they're necessary or not, what do those changes do that negatively harms the story?
Let's ignore if we think the story is inconsistent or not. If I had retold it, my changes done exactly as I've described, would that be a bad story or not? Simple question.
No, but you've not told me at all why my amendments are bad, regardless. Irrespective if you think they're necessary or not, what do those changes do that negatively harms the story?
Let's ignore if we think the story is inconsistent or not. If I had retold it, my changes done exactly as I've described, would that be a bad story or not? Simple question.
Sure, let's boil it down to this. Your amendments aren't "bad". They tell a different story, though, of a highly reasonable Custodes performing highly reasonable actions, being totally justified in his hatred/distrust of Astartes. There's a different vibe to it.
This harms the story to my taste because it's less of the parts of 40k that I enjoy. I really don't like stories that portray any characters as paragons of virtue, reason, logic, and honor in 40k.
I strongly prefer the story as is, about a Custodes who vents his distaste of Astartes on the closest target with the loosest of justification (but he DOES have logically consistent justification). The last lines of the story would be much weaker, in my opinion, with your amendments.
Let's ignore if we think the story is inconsistent or not. If I had retold it, my changes done exactly as I've described, would that be a bad story or not? Simple question.
Your simple question is pretty disingenuous.
You are of course entitled to your opinion and I don’t think anyone here is disputing that, it is clear that I, and many others simply don’t agree with you, and are unconvinced by your argument.
As for your question, this is akin to asking about any other piece of art or fiction and claiming you could do a better job by changing a few small details. Basically minimal editing. This is quite different from authorship and whether your changes would improve the story or not is irrelevant. Without rewriting the complete piece with your suggested changes it’s impossible to judge the standard of the finished piece.
Good editorial suggestions is a skill in and of itself, but is quite different from creative work from scratch.
Rihgu wrote: You keep asking why the Custodes haven't done this to any of the 1st Founding chapters. Where are the events where a Custodes Shield Captain has been on board a fleet to deliver reinforcements to Ultramar to discover the Ultramarines have turned traitor? There aren't any? Well, that's why the Custodes haven't purged the Ultramarines because some Ultramarines have gone heretic.
1) Ultramarines have totally turned to Chaos.
2) The Blood Ravens got given Primaris, and they had their Chapter Master become a daemon prince and a good portion of the Chapter turn to Chaos within the last 200 years or so. But that's less cause for purging than the Brazen Drakes Greyshields?
No, but you've not told me at all why my amendments are bad, regardless. Irrespective if you think they're necessary or not, what do those changes do that negatively harms the story?
Let's ignore if we think the story is inconsistent or not. If I had retold it, my changes done exactly as I've described, would that be a bad story or not? Simple question.
Sure, let's boil it down to this. Your amendments aren't "bad". They tell a different story, though, of a highly reasonable Custodes performing highly reasonable actions, being totally justified in his hatred/distrust of Astartes. There's a different vibe to it.
Sorry, since when is executing people simply because they questioned you "reasonable"?
This is exactly the kind of "grimdumb" I'm on about! The very idea of demanding someone's surrender because people they're even related to should be such an unreasonable thing, the idea of actually going through with it should be horrific. Even IF the Custodian had genuine reason (unlike in the story) to suspect the Marines of being traitors, by our sensibilities, it still shouldn't give him the right to execute them.
*That* is the grimdark part, the fact that the Custodian is even able to execute people on such little reason, not the Custodian accusing people with no reason to do so.
One is horrific and inhumane, the other is just RDM.
This harms the story to my taste because it's less of the parts of 40k that I enjoy. I really don't like stories that portray any characters as paragons of virtue, reason, logic, and honor in 40k.
If you think a character executing someone simply for defending their case is a "paragon of virtue", I don't think it's worth discussing this with you. Yikes.
The Custodes killing the Marines simply for defending themselves is completely grimdark, and totally in line with 40k. It's a horrific act, totally barbaric, simply on it's own accord. If that's not grimdark to you, then I despair for what must be.
I strongly prefer the story as is, about a Custodes who vents his distaste of Astartes on the closest target with the loosest of justification (but he DOES have logically consistent justification).
No, he doesn't. The Greyshields have no connection to the Brazen Drakes (prior to their accusation) that doesn't also incriminate every other Space Marine.
If the Custodian thinks that is enough evidence to call them traitors, he is implying that every Space Marines must be a traitor.
The last lines of the story would be much weaker, in my opinion, with your amendments.
I disagree. They would fit the theme so much better had the Marines be the first ones to act. Think about it. The Custodian says nothing, doesn't react, doesn't accuse the Greyshields of anything. And then, out of nowhere, Gerion leapts to their defence, saying "we should help them, we don't know the whole story, there could be loyalists down there" - that fits so much better into the theme of "Space Marines always side with other Marines", because that's actually being done on their own autonomy. They're not being pressured, they're not being told they're traitors; they're just doing what they think is right - and THEN, after that bombshell, the Custodian has his evidence, and begins the whole "apprehend these traitors" routine. Now, the Custodian both has an explicit reasoning, is still behaving totally grimdark-ly (because even IRL, you'd still want to check that evidence for yourself, you wouldn't arrest someone simply on them suggesting that there might be loyalists), and the theme is actively reinforced by the Marines instead of forced upon them.
Aash wrote:
Let's ignore if we think the story is inconsistent or not. If I had retold it, my changes done exactly as I've described, would that be a bad story or not? Simple question.
Your simple question is pretty disingenuous.
You are of course entitled to your opinion and I don’t think anyone here is disputing that, it is clear that I, and many others simply don’t agree with you, and are unconvinced by your argument.
As for your question, this is akin to asking about any other piece of art or fiction and claiming you could do a better job by changing a few small details. Basically minimal editing. This is quite different from authorship and whether your changes would improve the story or not is irrelevant. Without rewriting the complete piece with your suggested changes it’s impossible to judge the standard of the finished piece.
Good editorial suggestions is a skill in and of itself, but is quite different from creative work from scratch.
It shouldn't be hard to figure out what my revision would be, and the differences within it. I'm literally talking deleting every mention of the word 'Greyshield', it's replacement with a similar term (like Space Marine or Brazen Drake), and wholesale deleting the entire phrase about meeting Kaslyn and their adoptive homeworld, and all that.
It shouldn't be hard to imagine, no? So what's the problem with it? I'm not saying I could write a better story wholesale. I'm not claiming authorship anywhere. I'm saying this one has problems, that I could amend, that would maintain the theme of the work and fix the plot holes and internal inconsistencies it presents. I'm talking about editing, I'm talking internal story control.
I never claimed for a second about "creative work from scratch". So, with that corrected, how about answering my actual question?
Rihgu wrote: You keep asking why the Custodes haven't done this to any of the 1st Founding chapters. Where are the events where a Custodes Shield Captain has been on board a fleet to deliver reinforcements to Ultramar to discover the Ultramarines have turned traitor? There aren't any? Well, that's why the Custodes haven't purged the Ultramarines because some Ultramarines have gone heretic.
1) Ultramarines have totally turned to Chaos.
2) The Blood Ravens got given Primaris, and they had their Chapter Master become a daemon prince and a good portion of the Chapter turn to Chaos within the last 200 years or so. But that's less cause for purging than the Brazen Drakes Greyshields?
Apparently, the only reason the Custodes haven't done anything about that is because they're lazy, and only deal with traitors when they don't have to walk too far to do it.
Super zealous against Marines, totally grimdark and unreasonable and will absolutely detain Marines for the SLIGHTEST hint of heresy... but only if they're on the same ship. Otherwise, "not our division". Super grimdark, I know.
It shouldn't be hard to figure out what my revision would be, and the differences within it. I'm literally talking deleting every mention of the word 'Greyshield', it's replacement with a similar term (like Space Marine or Brazen Drake), and wholesale deleting the entire phrase about meeting Kaslyn and their adoptive homeworld, and all that.
It shouldn't be hard to imagine, no? So what's the problem with it? I'm not saying I could write a better story wholesale. I'm not claiming authorship anywhere. I'm saying this one has problems, that I could amend, that would maintain the theme of the work and fix the plot holes and internal inconsistencies it presents. I'm talking about editing, I'm talking internal story control.
I never claimed for a second about "creative work from scratch". So, with that corrected, how about answering my actual question?
No, I don’t think the story you aren’t willing to write would necessarily be bad, but I think the one that the author did write is quite good.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with all Sgt_Smudge's points here. The crux of the issue for me is that the custodes instantly escalated the situation because the grey shields were ON PAPER members with the chapter.
If his first response had been to issue a stand down order, that would make sense. But he doesn't. His first response is instead to declare dudes traitors. Not the same thing. He communicated instantly, "I am confirming that you are in fact guilty even though I have no reason to think that you've had any contact or commonality with the traitors on that planet."
Which, yeah. That's pretty dumb. Like, all the individual pieces of the story are fine, but the author seems to have fumbled a critical step in the order of operations.
CUSTODES: Hey guys! We're here. Now everyone put on your new Brazen Drakes name tags!
PRIMARIS: Cool.
BEACON: ALERT! ALL BRAZEN DRAKES ARE TRAITORS!
CUSTODES: Gasp! You tricked me! I thought we were friends!
PRIMARIS: Wait. Wut?
CUSTODES: SILENCE, HERETIC!
*Self-detrimental massacre ensues*
SISTER: Omg, Custodes senpai. You're like, so smart for figuring out they were all traitors before any normal person could have had any reason to think they were! And the way you forced them into armed conflict so that they had no choice but to reveal their heresy? Genius!
The Alpha legion has been working way too hard. Apparently all you need is one inquisitorial access code and a telephone and you can cut an imperial force's numbers in half overnight.
P.S. It's telling that you could do this same scene with orks and everyone would go, "Lol, yeah. That's totally what those silly stupid orks would do."
Aash wrote:No, I don’t think the story you aren’t willing to write would necessarily be bad, but I think the one that the author did write is quite good.
Please read what I've said. I think the core of the story is fine. That's why my 'edits' don't change much of it. It's the small things, small additional details that they've added that drag it from a really entertaining piece into a "wait, what?" story.
Small things, like the Custodian acting without any evidence, to the inconsistency on how Greyshields are portrayed - small things that realistically don't change the core story, but disrupt the internal consistency and logic of the setting.
I'm not sure why there's so much blowback against the idea of "hey, these small things are inconsistent - maybe the story would be better without them".
Wyldhunt wrote:
Spoiler:
Yeah, I pretty much agree with all Sgt_Smudge's points here. The crux of the issue for me is that the custodes instantly escalated the situation because the grey shields were ON PAPER members with the chapter.
If his first response had been to issue a stand down order, that would make sense. But he doesn't. His first response is instead to declare dudes traitors. Not the same thing. He communicated instantly, "I am confirming that you are in fact guilty even though I have no reason to think that you've had any contact or commonality with the traitors on that planet."
Which, yeah. That's pretty dumb. Like, all the individual pieces of the story are fine, but the author seems to have fumbled a critical step in the order of operations.
CUSTODES: Hey guys! We're here. Now everyone put on your new Brazen Drakes name tags!
PRIMARIS: Cool.
BEACON: ALERT! ALL BRAZEN DRAKES ARE TRAITORS!
CUSTODES: Gasp! You tricked me! I thought we were friends!
PRIMARIS: Wait. Wut?
CUSTODES: SILENCE, HERETIC!
*Self-detrimental massacre ensues*
SISTER: Omg, Custodes senpai. You're like, so smart for figuring out they were all traitors before any normal person could have had any reason to think they were! And the way you forced them into armed conflict so that they had no choice but to reveal their heresy? Genius!
The Alpha legion has been working way too hard. Apparently all you need is one inquisitorial access code and a telephone and you can cut an imperial force's numbers in half overnight.
P.S. It's telling that you could do this same scene with orks and everyone would go, "Lol, yeah. That's totally what those silly stupid orks would do."
Exactly, illustrates how I feel about it perfectly. Underlined for emphasis, and the little name tag thing is exactly how it feels this went down, complete with the Custodes' outrage.
If all you need to convince Imperial officials that you're totally in league with traitors is to accuse them of heresy, and when they call you out on such a ridiculous claim, say that this proves their heresy, the Alpha Legion should have taken over the Imperium in days.
Like, if a Custodes goes up to Fenris and tells Logan Grimnar "you are all traitors, and you're coming with me", and Grimnar even says for a second "wait, what is the meaning of this", apparently that makes all Space Wolves traitors?
Hellebore wrote: This conversation wouldn't happening if it was an imperial guard squad.
Guardsmen aren't Space Marines. Guardsmen can fall to Chaos with the slightest provocation. The same cannot be said of Space Marines - especially not Space Marines who have been under the watchful eyes of both the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.
The reason the Greyshields are accused isn't even because of anything they've demonstrated. It's because the Marines they were about to join (who, as I grow tired of reminding, would have had nothing to do with them) turned traitor. That's like killing every Cadian because one Cadian halfway across the galaxy turned to Chaos - which judging from the fact that there are still Cadians in the Imperium, tells us that this is not how the IoM operate.
People assume space marines too much specialness. They're still a cog in the Imperium and can be disposed of and replaced like any other.
True. But Space Marines are disposed of with reason. The Custodian had no reason to accuse them in the first place. The Imperium has a brutal calculus of war - but even it doesn't accuse Marines on such trivial grounds as presented here.
Want a grimdark story like this? Try the Abyssal Crusade - the Marines were tried and found guilty, not simply on a whim, but as a direct result of a warp storm to act as the first suspicion. If getting Marines excommunicated were so easy as this story presents itself, ex-Saint Basillius would have had an even easier time.
That's like killing every Cadian because one Cadian halfway across the galaxy turned to Chaos
It makes even less sense than that. If a guy that came from Cadia fell to chaos, you could at least argue that maybe there was something about his home planet that lead to that fall. This is more like... Imagine a vostroyan regiment gets wiped out, so the last survivors of that regiment get mixed into a predominately cadian regiment. Later the vostroyans fall to chaos, and the custodes decide to kill all cadians because of some vostroyans that never came anywhere near Cadia.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Guardsmen aren't Space Marines. Guardsmen can fall to Chaos with the slightest provocation. The same cannot be said of Space Marines - especially not Space Marines who have been under the watchful eyes of both the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.
What? The same can be said of space marines, and in fact I regularly joke about it.
Good thing that space marines have a strong metabolism, because if they caught a cold they'd turn to nurgle lol.
Well, I didn't think this would turn into such a big discussion when I started this thread...and while I still dislike how the characters were written in this story for the same reasons mentioned in my inital post, I think we all have to give some credit to the author for creating such a reaction to a simple short story.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Guardsmen aren't Space Marines. Guardsmen can fall to Chaos with the slightest provocation. The same cannot be said of Space Marines - especially not Space Marines who have been under the watchful eyes of both the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.
What? The same can be said of space marines, and in fact I regularly joke about it.
Good thing that space marines have a strong metabolism, because if they caught a cold they'd turn to nurgle lol.
I hear this a lot, but I honestly think the whole "Space Marines are always turning traitor" is more a case of 'we're only told those story because they're so big and important'. The Badab War is quoted as being one of the most dangerous conflicts in recent 40k, and as being "unthinkable". And that was, what, one large Chapter that actually fell to Chaos? And sure, you have the Abyssal Crusade, but that was literally Chapters being thrown into the Eye of Terror itself, hardly normal conditions.
Basically, it's like the myth of "all the Dark Angels do is chase the Fallen!", when that's only a very small proportion of their operations. It's just that we, the audience, are predominantly shown those stories. Or how Space Marines seem to show up in every fight, but that's only because GW focuses on them.
I'm not saying Marines are incorruptible, they definitely *are* corruptible, but nowhere near the same degree as Guardsmen.
"The Brazen Drakes were declared traitors wholesale because some of them fell to chaos."
"Well, WHAT ABOUT the space wolves?"
-.- this isn't about the SW, it's about the Brazen Drakes.
And for what it's worth, I think it's gak writing that the Space Wolves haven't been called out for their gak, especially given the Month of Shame or whatever it's called where they actively fought the Inquisition. THAT'S bad writing, not this excellent short story.
GW's writing is full of inconsistency. The Ecclesiarchy gets to assassinate Space Marines with no consequences, Marines do dodgy stuff all the time and a race of geniuses make idiotic mistakes.
"The Brazen Drakes were declared traitors wholesale because some of them fell to chaos."
"Well, WHAT ABOUT the space wolves?"
-.- this isn't about the SW, it's about the Brazen Drakes.
No-one's explained why it's exclusive to the Brazen Drakes though? Why should be be a difference?
And for what it's worth, I think it's gak writing that the Space Wolves haven't been called out for their gak, especially given the Month of Shame or whatever it's called where they actively fought the Inquisition. THAT'S bad writing, not this excellent short story.
The Wolves should be called out, but this short story isn't flawless. I don't disagree that it's themes are great, but the details really bog this down.
"The Brazen Drakes were declared traitors wholesale because some of them fell to chaos."
"Well, WHAT ABOUT the space wolves?"
-.- this isn't about the SW, it's about the Brazen Drakes.
No-one's explained why it's exclusive to the Brazen Drakes though? Why should be be a difference?
There shouldn't. The other chapters should've been called out also. They weren't because of gak writing. I've held the opinion that that's crap writing even before this short story released - indeed, it's finally a welcome change for the marines not to be wearing plot armor thicker than their power armor.
And for what it's worth, I think it's gak writing that the Space Wolves haven't been called out for their gak, especially given the Month of Shame or whatever it's called where they actively fought the Inquisition. THAT'S bad writing, not this excellent short story.
The Wolves should be called out, but this short story isn't flawless. I don't disagree that it's themes are great, but the details really bog this down.
It's a short story; I wouldn't worry about the details. The themes it presents are the meat and potatoes of the story, and the individual details aren't that problematic imo. The specific culture surrounding the induction of greyshields into a chapter probably varies from chapter-to-chapter anyways; it's not as egregious as Land Raiders armed with Multilasers or anything (which happened in a real novel by the by).
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Sorry, since when is executing people simply because they questioned you "reasonable"?
Isn't... isn't the entire purpose of you proposing amendments to make it more reasonable to you? You keep talking about "they have no reason to do this, it doesn't make sense!" and propose amendments to give them a reason... and then call it unreasonable? I'm confused as to the point, then.
If you think a character executing someone simply for defending their case is a "paragon of virtue", I don't think it's worth discussing this with you. Yikes.
A character executing traitors for being traitors is a paragon of virtue by 40k standards (and honestly, when traitor means daemon-worshipping maniac setting entire worlds to flame... probably by real life standards, too!). The Custodes has no fault in that case. There would be a legitimate risk to him and the Imperials under his command. Again, I thought that was the entire point of you suggesting amendments! To give the Custodes a valid reason to act the way he does. If you're not seeking to give him a valid reason, I'm confused!
edit: It's very common in fiction for paragons of virtue to be mass murderers. Aragorn kills hundreds of Orcs in LotR, and he's very much not only a good guy but also a hero. It's okay to be a paragon of virtue while also killing the bad guys. It's a basic rule of fiction. Obviously I do not point to real life mass murderers as paragons of virtue...
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I hear this a lot, but I honestly think the whole "Space Marines are always turning traitor" is more a case of 'we're only told those story because they're so big and important'.
Uh? I mean, look at what can make a marine turn to Chaos. For instance, the story of the Wolf of Fenris. There is nothing special happening: just some space wolves being attacked by Red Corsairs and knowing that they will be killed. That's enough to make them turn coats. Uh, yeah, definitely easy to turn a marine.
Unit1126PLL wrote:There shouldn't. The other chapters should've been called out also. They weren't because of gak writing. I've held the opinion that that's crap writing even before this short story released - indeed, it's finally a welcome change for the marines not to be wearing plot armor thicker than their power armor.
So me bringing up that the Drakes aren't treated consistently with other Chapters isn't an issue, right?
It's a short story; I wouldn't worry about the details. The themes it presents are the meat and potatoes of the story, and the individual details aren't that problematic imo. The specific culture surrounding the induction of greyshields into a chapter probably varies from chapter-to-chapter anyways; it's not as egregious as Land Raiders armed with Multilasers or anything (which happened in a real novel by the by).
Eh, I'm not sure I agree. The core themes are fine, but the individual details create problematic implications for the setting. Again, it's not like the details just weren't fleshed out, it's more because the author added too many details to the story which had a great core anyways.
To put it as a food analogy, while I can appreciate that the steak at the core of the meal is great, the chocolate sauce covering it just takes away from the lovely steak.
Rihgu wrote:Isn't... isn't the entire purpose of you proposing amendments to make it more reasonable to you? You keep talking about "they have no reason to do this, it doesn't make sense!" and propose amendments to give them a reason... and then call it unreasonable? I'm confused as to the point, then.
The story *as is* is unreasonable in 40k standards (aka, the whole 'these Greyshields must be corrupted for no reason!' issues).
A Custodian killing a Marine just for defending themselves (which I don't have any issues with) is unreasonable in real life.
I think you're mistaking what things I think are unreasonable within the setting, and what things are unreasonable IRL. The Custodian RDMing? Unreasonable in both 40k and real life. The Custodian responding violently to the Marines opposing them? Unreasonable IRL, but justified in setting.
Again, the ONLY issue I have is that if those Marines remain as Greyshields, there is no reason for the Custodian to suspect them in the first place and call them traitors.
If you think a character executing someone simply for defending their case is a "paragon of virtue", I don't think it's worth discussing this with you. Yikes.
A character executing traitors for being traitors is a paragon of virtue by 40k standards (and honestly, when traitor means daemon-worshipping maniac setting entire worlds to flame... probably by real life standards, too!). The Custodes has no fault in that case. There would be a legitimate risk to him and the Imperials under his command. Again, I thought that was the entire point of you suggesting amendments! To give the Custodes a valid reason to act the way he does. If you're not seeking to give him a valid reason, I'm confused!
But they're not a paragon of virtue in real life, which is what I thought you were complaining about.
You said that you don't like characters who are "paragons of virtue". The Custodian isn't a paragon of virtue. They're fine within the context of 40k, but that doesn't make them virtuous IRL? What on earth are you complaining about with "I really don't like stories that portray any characters as paragons of virtue, reason, logic, and honor in 40k"?
Yes, the Custodian needs valid reason IN UNIVERSE. As presented, the story doesn't give him any reason to initially accuse the Marines. And, regardless of if the Custodian did or did not have justification within the universe, they still wouldn't be virtuous or rational by our IRL standards.
edit: It's very common in fiction for paragons of virtue to be mass murderers. Aragorn kills hundreds of Orcs in LotR, and he's very much not only a good guy but also a hero. It's okay to be a paragon of virtue while also killing the bad guys. It's a basic rule of fiction. Obviously I do not point to real life mass murderers as paragons of virtue...
Orcs are explicitly evil (well, Tolkein himself flip-flops on that point). In 40k, nearly everyone is explicitly evil.
What on earth do you mean by your "I really don't like stories that portray any characters as paragons of virtue, reason, logic, and honor in 40k." comment?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Uh? I mean, look at what can make a marine turn to Chaos. For instance, the story of the Wolf of Fenris. There is nothing special happening: just some space wolves being attacked by Red Corsairs and knowing that they will be killed. That's enough to make them turn coats. Uh, yeah, definitely easy to turn a marine.
If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?
After all, if they're happy to kill 200 Marines with no reason, exterminating Chapters with confirmed quarrels with Imperial servants should be much higher on the Custodes' list of priorities.
If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?
After all, if they're happy to kill 200 Marines with no reason, exterminating Chapters with confirmed quarrels with Imperial servants should be much higher on the Custodes' list of priorities.
Killing 200 marines confined to a fleet vs. killing 1,000,000 marines spread across the galaxy.
Also, the pragmatic point of marines serving a purpose for the Imperium despite the distaste of the Custodians.
ALSO, the pragmatic point of the Imperium at large revering the Adeptus Astartes and very likely taking very poorly to the Custodes turning on them.
Those 200 marines were there, easy targets, and had Kill On Sight orders on them.
edit: for somebody so concerned with the logic of 40k, you don't seem to be trying to apply any of it.
If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?
After all, if they're happy to kill 200 Marines with no reason, exterminating Chapters with confirmed quarrels with Imperial servants should be much higher on the Custodes' list of priorities.
Killing 200 marines confined to a fleet vs. killing 1,000,000 marines spread across the galaxy.
200 Marines who had displayed no signs of treachery, nor evidence that they were any more susceptible than other Astartes. That's the point you're missing here.
If it was acceptable to accuse 200 Marines of heresy of whom there was no reason to suspect, why not all Astartes?
What makes the other 999800 Astartes safe, but these 200 (completely unsuspecting) Astartes dangerous?
Also, the pragmatic point of marines serving a purpose for the Imperium despite the distaste of the Custodians.
Those 200 Marines served pragmatic purpose. There was no reason for the Custodian to suspect them, despite his distaste.
Why were those 200 Marines guilty before trial, but the other 9998000 innocent?
ALSO, the pragmatic point of the Imperium at large revering the Adeptus Astartes and very likely taking very poorly to the Custodes turning on them.
But that would be an acceptance of heresy, no?
If it is acceptable to accuse 200 Marines of heresy without any evidence, that would imply that all Space Marines must be similarly accused of heresy, as they have the same evidence against them (aka, none). If ALL Marines are accused of heresy, but the Custodes are afraid to take action because the Marines are too well revered, then that is an implicit endorsement of heresy and corruption from the Custodes.
If they have such a devout, burning hatred of Space Marines that they are prepared to arrest 200 of them without any evidence, why doesn't that extend to the wider Imperium? You can't have your "super duper hating of corruption" cake and ignore it too.
Those 200 marines were there, easy targets, and had Kill On Sight orders on them.
No, they didn't.
They had orders that Brazen Drakes were Kill On Sight. These Marines were not Brazen Drakes. They were Greyshields, apparently.
Now, I'd be more than happy to rearrange the story, and have those Marines actually *be* Brazen Drakes returning from a foreign crusade, but unfortunately, you don't seem to like that compromise. So, if you're going to insist that the story is perfect, I'm going to have to go by what the story tells us, and that those Marines are Greyshields, not Brazen Drakes.
I suggest you actually go and do some reading on what Greyshields are, and get back to me on that.
edit: for somebody so concerned with the logic of 40k, you don't seem to be trying to apply any of it.
On the contrary, you seem to ignore every one of my logical conclusions presented.
I have provided at least two logical and consistent rewrites of the story, that preserve the same themes, the same dramatic beats, and improve the logic and motivations of every character involved. Yet you reject them. Why?
Ignore the existing story, and consider my alternatives. Why are you so doggedly opposed to them? Are you just afraid to admit that there *is* nothing wrong, and you don't want to go back on your argument? Because your avoidance to actually answer that suggests so.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?
Do you remember how this strand of the discussion started with you saying "Space marines don't turn as easily as guardsmen" and me saying "Yes they turn at least as easily as guardsmen"?
Well, I think you get your answer right there: for the same reason that Custodes don't exterminate every guardsman in the galaxy!
solkan wrote: I think it's worth going back to the story and reviewing it:
- "Apprehend these traitors." as Shield-Captain Tyvar draws is spear and points his gun at the captain.
- Gerion starts to say "Shield-Captain..."
- "You do not address me, Gerion. You do not look at any of these faithful servants of the Emperor. You are tainted by heresy and you will be detained, along with your brothers, until an appropriate fate can be determined."
"Shield-Captain, we do not know the Chapter has truly turned. This may be a mistake, some trick of the enemy. We may have brethren even now attempting to restore the honor of the Brazen Drakes on the world. ... I am not in the habit of betraying my battle-brothers."
It's 40k. You're guilty until proven innocent.
So where are these Custodes fleets going out and demanding the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, etc etc bend the knee and get detained, hmm?
No. 40k *isn't* guilty until innocent. It's innocent, until you do the slightest thing wrong, and then you are utterly destroyed. That innocence hadn't been broken until the Custodian accused them of something they had no reason to suspect.
If that had been an RPG I was DMing, and the Custodian did that, I'd have called them out for being OOC. It was completely irrational, even for 40k standards, to expect Greyshields to be in league in any way with the traitor Marines. Had they not been Greyshields? Different story. But unfortunately, as much as I mention how simple it would be to just agree that calling them Greyshields was an author mistake, no-one seems to buy it.
Especially when heresy is concerned. And here you've got the Primaris Captain going "I'm willing to ignore an Inquisition edict in order to try to prove the honor of these fellow Space Marines who I've never met."
How, exactly, was that supposed to work out?
Yet again, you've missed my point.
The Marine absolutely signs his own death warrant by doing that. It doesn't change the fact that Custodes had no reason to suspect them in the first place. Seriously, what is so hard to understand about that?
If the story was trying to illustrate a conflict between naive new Primaris and the established order, or that the people involved with "Cawl's Miracle" (presumably Guillman and the rest) were more open minded than everyone else thinks they should be, then I think it works.
Except it just paints the Custodian (who is described in other material as being expert diplomats and above the whole 'hurr durr heresy lol' mindset) as committing an RDM and finding justification after the fact?
Want to showcase the "conflict between the naive new Primaris and established order"? Give the established order a REASON to distrust the Primaris beyond "you're supposed to be their reinforcements, even though I know you've never met and there's no way you could have been corrupted".
Simple fix? Have the Marines be the first one to react. Have the entire thing start off with the Custodes saying "ah well, looks like the Marines on that planet are traitors, you guys are coming with us to exterminate them", and have Gerion say "hold on, what if this is all a big misunderstanding" - THEN the Custodian has a reason, and the story can play on normally. But as it currently is? It's a mess.
Just to reinforce: I like the core story. I like how it reinforces the Imperium is brutal and unforgiving and takes no chances. I can even appreciate the idea of "new vs old" if that's what they were going for. But their execution raises so many internal issues of consistency and plain stupidity that there's no way I can look at it and not want to do the tiniest, smallest of edits to make it fit.
And so far, no-one has told me why my amendments detract in any way from the original themes and ideas, or why there's no way that the inconsistencies can't be explained by simple authorial mistakes?
Because of one reason: This arguments in this thread represent more writing than the original work in question.
Seriously, the entire premise of the story is:
Two dudes walk into a room, and see something at the same time. Before Dude A can react, Dude B pulls a gun on Dude A based on how Dude B *knows what Dude A is going to do because Dude B is a bad ass/super smart/whatever*.
Space Cop pulls gun on Space Marine Dude because Space Cop is super smart and predicted that Space Marine Dude would do something stupid upon seeing the chapter they’re going to reinforce declared traitor. And then Space Marine Dude goes on to beg to be allowed to do something stupid (try to protect the honor of a traitor chapter he’s not part of yet). Then bolter fight breaks out.
If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?
After all, if they're happy to kill 200 Marines with no reason, exterminating Chapters with confirmed quarrels with Imperial servants should be much higher on the Custodes' list of priorities.
Killing 200 marines confined to a fleet vs. killing 1,000,000 marines spread across the galaxy.
Also, the pragmatic point of marines serving a purpose for the Imperium despite the distaste of the Custodians.
ALSO, the pragmatic point of the Imperium at large revering the Adeptus Astartes and very likely taking very poorly to the Custodes turning on them.
Those 200 marines were there, easy targets, and had Kill On Sight orders on them.
edit: for somebody so concerned with the logic of 40k, you don't seem to be trying to apply any of it.
It seems like you're arguing that custodes don't care about having a reason to kill marines and that they constantly want to kill marines every time they think they can get away with it. If that's the case, it seems like it ought to be a much bigger part of their fluff. Like, marines should wander off to use the toilet and never return thanks to the custodes axe murderer lurking above the stalls. Custodes on missions with marines would be cutting down wounded and distracted marines every chance they got and then blaming it on the enemy. I'm no expert on custodes lore, but I'm not under the impression that that's their jam.
I don't think custodes need much reason to kill marines, but they probably need some reason. The custodes in this story didn't have a reason to accuse the greyshields of being traitors (at first). He just had an after-the-fact excuse. And as I don't believe custodes make a habit of beheading marines in the toilet, I find his behavior out of character.
So probably the author just didn't fully think through the implications of the marines being grey shields. Honest mistake. A bit baffling. Story overall is good.
Alternative headcanon: custodes aren't nearly as bright as they're hyped up to me, and the custodes was so surprised by the inquisitorial declaration that he had a brain fart and made an oopsie.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If it's so easy, and the Custodes are so aggressive about purging corrupt Marines, why haven't the Custodes killed all the Marines then?
Do you remember how this strand of the discussion started with you saying "Space marines don't turn as easily as guardsmen" and me saying "Yes they turn at least as easily as guardsmen"?
Well, I think you get your answer right there: for the same reason that Custodes don't exterminate every guardsman in the galaxy!
Right - so why don't they exterminate every guardsman?
If the Imperium has demonstrated that Space Marines are acceptable targets with such little evidence against them, why aren't we seeing lone Guardsmen regiments that Custodes happen to fall upon get wiped out? After all, if Space Marines fall as easily as Guardsmen, why don't we see Guardsmen get wiped out for members of their homeworlds turning traitor?
Let's look at one of the bloodiest examples of "collateral damage" in the Imperium - the aftermath of the First Armageddon War (the invasion of Angron). The Inquisition wanted every soldier processed and executed - cruel, but not without reason (the reason being actual proven exposure to one of the most corrupting influences in the galaxy, an honest-to-god Daemon Primarch). They only expanded their collateral damage when those proven to have been at risk were allowed to escape - and even then, the Inquisition killed the worlds they had spread to, not every single planet in the way. They were unbelievably cruel and inhumane, completely out of touch with our IRL sensibilities, but within the setting, they had a reason for the suspicion.
What reason did Tyvar have to suspect the Greyshields? You know, beyond "everyone is corruptible so everyone must be corrupted, even though nothing has happened!!" logic?
solkan wrote:Because of one reason: This arguments in this thread represent more writing than the original work in question.
Seriously, the entire premise of the story is:
Two dudes walk into a room, and see something at the same time. Before Dude A can react, Dude B pulls a gun on Dude A based on how Dude B *knows what Dude A is going to do because Dude B is a bad ass/super smart/whatever*.
No, they don't. Dude B has no way of knowing what Dude A will do. That's the flaw in your argument.
The Custodian has both no knowledge, nor reason to suspect that the Greyshields will be a complication. Therefore, there is no reason for them to have drawn a weapon.
Now, if Dude A and B had both seen the thing at the same time, and Dude A had actually done something incriminating, even the slightest thing, like showing sympathy, or even asking "what do we do?", then Dude B would have complete in-universe reason to react that way. But that's not what happened, and you know it.
What evidence do you have that the Custodian "knew" the Marines would have been a complication before he drew on them? Because it's never mentioned anywhere.
Space Cop pulls gun on Space Marine Dude because Space Cop is super smart and predicted that Space Marine Dude would do something stupid upon seeing the chapter they’re going to reinforce declared traitor. And then Space Marine Dude goes on to beg to be allowed to do something stupid (try to protect the honor of a traitor chapter he’s not part of yet). Then bolter fight breaks out.
But that's the thing - Space Cop *isn't* super smart - at least, not in that degree. Yes, Custodes are possessed of incredible skills (notably, in diplomacy), but incredibly skills don't just manifest evidence out of thin air. And there is no evidence to suggest that these Greyshields were in any way a threat to the Custodes.
Now, if we'd *seen* the Greyshields make some kind of move, some slight error, I'd be all agreed - but that's not what happened. Even more amusing is that I've literally presented the motion of rewriting to include some kind of line where, before the Custodian calls the Marines traitors, the Greyshield says something out-of-line, that *would* give your super duper little Custodian reason to suspect and predict corruption. But no, we can't admit that maybe it could have been edited slightly, can we?
I honestly don't care about anything that happens after the Custodian draws his weapon. In the rules of the setting, the Marines sign their death warrant. I agree with that.
What *is* a problem is that the Custodes had no way of knowing, guessing, or predicting that those Greyshields were corrupt, and they are only proven correct by self-fulfilling prophecy.
That’s the premise you’re objecting to.
I'm objecting to the absurd claim that the Custodian "knew" exactly what the Greyshields would do, when they had no reason to suspect them in the first place. We're given no indication prior to the Custodes getting all twitchy on the trigger finger that the Greyshields were anything but compliant *prior to their detainment*.
The entire "dude B draws a gun on dude A" analogy is so painfully wrong it hurts. B had no way of knowing A's intentions. I've provided alternatives that keep exactly the same feel, and even allows B their little "super duper detective" thing - but no, it's too much to admit that maybe the author had an error, probably out of a completely honest mistake.
Wyldhunt wrote:So probably the author just didn't fully think through the implications of the marines being grey shields. Honest mistake. A bit baffling. Story overall is good.
Exactly. What's so controversial about stating that?
Author made a mistake. There's easy fixes. The core story is fine. What's wrong with agreeing to that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyldhunt wrote: Alternative headcanon: custodes aren't nearly as bright as they're hyped up to me, and the custodes was so surprised by the inquisitorial declaration that he had a brain fart and made an oopsie.
On the subject of headcanon, if we're truly going to take certain suggestions that Custodes just want to butcher and bully smaller Imperial forces because they "could be corrupted!" to the logical extreme, I'd actually be interested to hear about rogue Custodes and Sisters, who track down small Imperial fleets and wipe them all out in the dead of space, where they can't cry for help or mount a meaningful resistance.
Of course, that would make these Custodes and Sisters completely irrational and delusional (which would be a bit of a diversion from the lore outlining them as rational and intelligent warrior-scholars, but apparently Custodes aren't so bright after all).
Unit1126PLL wrote:There shouldn't. The other chapters should've been called out also. They weren't because of gak writing. I've held the opinion that that's crap writing even before this short story released - indeed, it's finally a welcome change for the marines not to be wearing plot armor thicker than their power armor.
So me bringing up that the Drakes aren't treated consistently with other Chapters isn't an issue, right?
Nope, not an issue at all. This short story has fine writing, and the other chapters getting off is crap writing. You think the other chapters getting off is fine, and this story is crap writing. *shrug*
It's a short story; I wouldn't worry about the details. The themes it presents are the meat and potatoes of the story, and the individual details aren't that problematic imo. The specific culture surrounding the induction of greyshields into a chapter probably varies from chapter-to-chapter anyways; it's not as egregious as Land Raiders armed with Multilasers or anything (which happened in a real novel by the by).
Eh, I'm not sure I agree. The core themes are fine, but the individual details create problematic implications for the setting. Again, it's not like the details just weren't fleshed out, it's more because the author added too many details to the story which had a great core anyways.
What sort of problematic implications does it create? That heretics are executed on the spot without hesitation? Or even with some hesitation. Perhaps the problematic implication is that the imperium is being weak, since he asked the Marines twice instead of once to disarm.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: To put it as a food analogy, while I can appreciate that the steak at the core of the meal is great, the chocolate sauce covering it just takes away from the lovely steak.
Nothing in this story is so bad as chocolate sauce would be on a steak. Not even close.
Unit1126PLL wrote:There shouldn't. The other chapters should've been called out also. They weren't because of gak writing. I've held the opinion that that's crap writing even before this short story released - indeed, it's finally a welcome change for the marines not to be wearing plot armor thicker than their power armor.
So me bringing up that the Drakes aren't treated consistently with other Chapters isn't an issue, right?
Nope, not an issue at all. This short story has fine writing, and the other chapters getting off is crap writing. You think the other chapters getting off is fine, and this story is crap writing. *shrug*
Not quite. I think this story has the Custodes act on too little evidence, and the Space Wolves get away with too much. There's a middle ground between the two, and this story doesn't cut it, IMO.
It's a short story; I wouldn't worry about the details. The themes it presents are the meat and potatoes of the story, and the individual details aren't that problematic imo. The specific culture surrounding the induction of greyshields into a chapter probably varies from chapter-to-chapter anyways; it's not as egregious as Land Raiders armed with Multilasers or anything (which happened in a real novel by the by).
Eh, I'm not sure I agree. The core themes are fine, but the individual details create problematic implications for the setting. Again, it's not like the details just weren't fleshed out, it's more because the author added too many details to the story which had a great core anyways.
What sort of problematic implications does it create? That heretics are executed on the spot without hesitation? Or even with some hesitation. Perhaps the problematic implication is that the imperium is being weak, since he asked the Marines twice instead of once to disarm.
The problematic implication is that Marines can be accused of heresy without any actual reason. If these Greyshields have enough reason to be initially suspected, then every Space Marines does.
Execution without hesitation? Fine by 40k standards. Accusation without reason? I think not. I don't have an issue with what the Custodian does *after* the Marines question him, but the fact the Custodian (who is supposed to be diplomatic and sensible - by Imperial standards) accuses them before they have any evidence opens up a whole can of worms.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: To put it as a food analogy, while I can appreciate that the steak at the core of the meal is great, the chocolate sauce covering it just takes away from the lovely steak.
Nothing in this story is so bad as chocolate sauce would be on a steak. Not even close.
I disagree, personally. It's a lovely core story, but bringing in Greyshields and having the Custodian act without any proof? Takes me out of the whole story.
You say the Custodian acted without evidence (and this seems to be the whole point your post hinges around), but the chapter was declared heretical by the Inquisition.
If a detective tells a cop he needs to arrest a perp, does the cop do his own investigation to make sure the detective isn't wrong? Or should he trust the detective to do his job, and get on with doing his own?
Unit1126PLL wrote: You say the Custodian acted without evidence (and this seems to be the whole point your post hinges around), but the chapter was declared heretical by the Inquisition.
And the Greyshields aren't the Brazen Drakes.
So why were the Greyshields arrested?
If a detective tells a cop he needs to arrest a perp, does the cop do his own investigation to make sure the detective isn't wrong? Or should he trust the detective to do his job, and get on with doing his own?
The cop doesn't arrest someone who was about to work in the same company as the perp unless they have evidence they were also involved.
Unit1126PLL wrote: You say the Custodian acted without evidence (and this seems to be the whole point your post hinges around), but the chapter was declared heretical by the Inquisition.
And the Greyshields aren't the Brazen Drakes.
They kind of are, kind of aren't, which is why they were given an opportunity to be investigated independently before throwing that opportunity away by not following orders and proving themselves heretics.
If a detective tells a cop he needs to arrest a perp, does the cop do his own investigation to make sure the detective isn't wrong? Or should he trust the detective to do his job, and get on with doing his own?
The cop doesn't arrest someone who was about to work in the same company as the perp unless they have evidence they were also involved.
The cop arrests anyone involved with the company, if the directive is to arrest anyone involved with the company. This can include new employees who don't even have a company email account and have barely checked in the front door at the security desk. It would be unreasonable to assume these are hardcore criminals, but arresting them for questioning about what they might know is not unreasonable in a place as dystopian as the Imperium.
Remember, the Custodian does not assume guilt. He requires them to stand down so their "fate can be determined" which is a fancy way of saying "I'm not sure you guys are actually involved in the heresy but we need time to find out before I trust you again." What proves the heresy (in his mind, and rightfully so) is when they disobey not one, but two direct orders from a vested representative of the Emperor himself.
Unit1126PLL wrote: You say the Custodian acted without evidence (and this seems to be the whole point your post hinges around), but the chapter was declared heretical by the Inquisition.
And the Greyshields aren't the Brazen Drakes.
They kind of are, kind of aren't, which is why they were given an opportunity to be investigated independently before throwing that opportunity away by not following orders and proving themselves heretics.
They really aren't anything to do with the Brazen Drakes at all, no more so than any other Space Marine. There was no reason to be investigated at all (prior to them opposing the Custodian).
For questioning, just like the cops might detain someone for questioning without them being a suspect.
Except that's not what the Custodian did. They weren't detained for questioning. They were declared as traitors. Their guilt had already been determined, without any input from them.
If a detective tells a cop he needs to arrest a perp, does the cop do his own investigation to make sure the detective isn't wrong? Or should he trust the detective to do his job, and get on with doing his own?
The cop doesn't arrest someone who was about to work in the same company as the perp unless they have evidence they were also involved.
The cop arrests anyone involved with the company, if the directive is to arrest anyone involved with the company. This can include new employees who don't even have a company email account and have barely checked in the front door at the security desk. It would be unreasonable to assume these are hardcore criminals, but arresting them for questioning about what they might know is not unreasonable in a place as dystopian as the Imperium.
These aren't new employees though. These are people who are just about to become new employees.
Let's say I wanted to work for GW, and then it's discovered that the entire company is riddled with corruption and various illegal activities. I'm not part of the company, but I was in the process of applying. What on earth do I have to do with their guilt?
And again, the Custodian wasn't even taking the Marines in for questioning. He had already declared them as guilty. The only thing he was offering was a lighter punishment. There wasn't any kind of "maybe you're guilty" involved, it went straight to "you're guilty, now come with me".
Remember, the Custodian does not assume guilt.
Read his first line again, and tell me that.
He requires them to stand down so their "fate can be determined" which is a fancy way of saying "I'm not sure you guys are actually involved in the heresy but we need time to find out before I trust you again." What proves the heresy (in his mind, and rightfully so) is when they disobey not one, but two direct orders from a vested representative of the Emperor himself.
Not true. His first line, which is delivered explicitly before the Marines can say or do anything, is declaring them as traitors. Not "you are suspected of heresy" or "I need to investigate you" - an outright condemnation of the Greyshields.
His whole spiel about "fate can be determined" is basically saying "if you comply, you might only be sent on a penitent crusade instead of being executed". There was no way the Greyshields were going to be set free, because the Custodian jumped straight to proclaiming them guilty.
The version of the story you're describing isn't the one we got. If the Custodian had done what you describe, I wouldn't be complaining, but that's not what happened.
I feel that, regarding questions of innocence, the 40k universe has never attempted to pretend that innocence or fair judgement actually means anything.
"Forgot the promise of progress and understanding"
"The weak will always be led by the strong. Where the strong see purpose and act, the weak follow; where the strong cry out against fate, the weak bow their heads and succumb. There are many who are weak; and many are their temptations. Despise the weak for they shall flock to the call of the Daemon and the Renegade. Pity them not and scorn their cries of innocence - it is better that one hundred innocently fall before the wrath of the Emperor than one kneels before the Daemon."
"There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time."
"There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt."
From our perspective, or really most any realistic perspective, none of this insane paranoia really works, but its perfectly normal for 40k.
I have not read the story yet, but to look at it both ways:
1. during the heresy half the marines broke bad. Out of 18 known legions 9 went traitor. (No, dark angles didn't!) That's a 50% fail rate. So by that metric it's hard to say marines are trustworthy.
2.In the 10,00 or so years since the heresy, the majority of marines descended from loyalists have stayed loyal. Yes, we had the red corsairs and the blood gorgons among others go bad, but the vast majority of chapters created post heresy from loyalist geneseed (Blood ravens?) have remained loyal and more have been destroyed in service to the emperor than have gone renegade.
So there's reason to look at marines with heavy suspicion and reason to assume they will likely remain loyal. I guess we know which way the custodes tend to see things.
Ultimately, find every objection you have Sgt_Smudge comes back around to the vagaries and known inconsistencies of the 41st Millennium.
Yes, the Brazen Drakes Greyshields shouldn't be suspect of anything since they haven't even met the chapter yet, but they are Brazen Drakes and the Brazen Drakes have been declared traitors as a whole. The illogical extremes of the IOM is a constant theme of Warhammer 40,000.
Yes, other chapters have gotten away with all sorts of shenanigans that should have had them equally censured, but even in real life some people get lauded for things that get other people tossed in jail. I guess the Space Wolves have really good publicist.
You'd think a bunch of Greyshields wouldn't identify with a bunch of guys they've never met, and yet time and time again the genetic programming of the Adeptus Astartes has proven to cause irrationally loyalty. This was the reason half the Legions turned to Chaos and the Legions were broken up!
So yes, there are aspects of this story that don't make sense from a 20th Century intellectual basis. The 41st Millennium is not a 20th Century intellectual galaxy.
Vaktathi wrote:I feel that, regarding questions of innocence, the 40k universe has never attempted to pretend that innocence or fair judgement actually means anything.
...
From our perspective, or really most any realistic perspective, none of this insane paranoia really works, but its perfectly normal for 40k.
Perhaps, but we don't see this kind of "Marines being accused of heresy without any evidence" elsewhere. Hell, we don't even see Guardsmen accused of corruption without a reason.
Sure, the Imperium is brutal, inhumane, and even the slightest bit of evidence will get you killed. But that still requires *some* evidence - that much is consistent with 40k.
alextroy wrote:Ultimately, find every objection you have Sgt_Smudge comes back around to the vagaries and known inconsistencies of the 41st Millennium.
Yes, the Brazen Drakes Greyshields shouldn't be suspect of anything since they haven't even met the chapter yet, but they are Brazen Drakes and the Brazen Drakes have been declared traitors as a whole. The illogical extremes of the IOM is a constant theme of Warhammer 40,000.
Well, no, they're not Brazen Drakes. They're either Brazen Drakes, or Greyshields. This is what I mean by the author making mistakes - 'Brazen Drakes Greyshields' isn't a thing. You have 'Ultramarines Greyshields' and 'Dark Angels Greyshields' but that's because those are first founding Chapters. Brazen Drakes are a successor Chapter.
So, what are they? If they're Greyshields, the Custodes have no reason to suspect them. If they're Brazen Drakes, then the entire section about their Chapter Master "accepting Cawl's Miracle" is incorrect.
Yes, other chapters have gotten away with all sorts of shenanigans that should have had them equally censured, but even in real life some people get lauded for things that get other people tossed in jail. I guess the Space Wolves have really good publicist.
As people are so keen on saying, 40k isn't real life. Custodes are the highest Imperial authority, There is no reason they wouldn't take on these more suspect Chapters, if they're so hating of Marines.
You'd think a bunch of Greyshields wouldn't identify with a bunch of guys they've never met, and yet time and time again the genetic programming of the Adeptus Astartes has proven to cause irrationally loyalty. This was the reason half the Legions turned to Chaos and the Legions were broken up!
By that same logic, all the Space Marines should be killed. Yet that hasn't happened. Why?
So yes, there are aspects of this story that don't make sense from a 20th Century intellectual basis. The 41st Millennium is not a 20th Century intellectual galaxy.
The story doesn't make sense from a 40k basis, let alone ours. That's why I have an issue with it.
From a 40k basis, people aren't declared guilty without at least *some* evidence, even if it's completely flimsy. There was no such evidence here. The rest of the story is fine, but that first part of the Custodian instantly accusing of guilty without even a trace of suspicion in the first place is incongruent with the rest of the setting. I've provided fixes that would keep the 40k feel, themes, and allow it to fit in the setting's expectations much better. So why is there pushback against it?
Vaktathi wrote:I feel that, regarding questions of innocence, the 40k universe has never attempted to pretend that innocence or fair judgement actually means anything.
...
From our perspective, or really most any realistic perspective, none of this insane paranoia really works, but its perfectly normal for 40k.
Perhaps, but we don't see this kind of "Marines being accused of heresy without any evidence" elsewhere. Hell, we don't even see Guardsmen accused of corruption without a reason.
Sure, the Imperium is brutal, inhumane, and even the slightest bit of evidence will get you killed. But that still requires *some* evidence - that much is consistent with 40k.
Right off the immediate top of my head, there was the Mordant 13th Regiment, as detailed in the Tactica Imperialis book that BL put out written by Abnett & Hoare. They fought against, and defeated a Chaos force led by an Emperor's Children CSM named Jihar the Lacerator, halting his black crusade. Notes of the campaign detail how even without hand to hand fighting and extreme dissuasions by Preachers to avoid enemy dead, conversations are had about contamination being possible (though not actually witnessed or confirmed). As soon as Jihar the Lacerator was defeated, the 13th Mordant was wiped out from orbit on Inquisitorial order.
The Inquisitor notes how he saw the spirit of the emperor in the breast of each trooper, felt divine presence upon the battlefield and believed vengeful angels fought alongside the 13th Mordant...and proceeds to order their annihilation simply for having been in contact with Chaos forces, of course only after personally setting foot on the battleground and inspecting the bloody remains of the dead Jihar (all that stuff they forbade the troopers doing) himself
Also reminds me a bit of the events around the abyssal crusade. All those chapters were in a similar Situation to the greyshields here: their homeworlds were corrupted so they were all seen aa corrupted too and sent into the Eye to die (or turn to Chaos apparently....)
Vaktathi wrote:I feel that, regarding questions of innocence, the 40k universe has never attempted to pretend that innocence or fair judgement actually means anything. ... From our perspective, or really most any realistic perspective, none of this insane paranoia really works, but its perfectly normal for 40k.
Perhaps, but we don't see this kind of "Marines being accused of heresy without any evidence" elsewhere. Hell, we don't even see Guardsmen accused of corruption without a reason. Sure, the Imperium is brutal, inhumane, and even the slightest bit of evidence will get you killed. But that still requires *some* evidence - that much is consistent with 40k.
1) There is evidence. The fact that you, personally, Sgt. Smudge, believe that Brazen Drakes Greyshields are not part of the Brazen Drakes Chapter does not mean that Custodian Tyvar agrees with your interpretation of Imperial bureaucracy. He saw them as part of the Brazen Drakes, and you're free to argue that they aren't with him at your leisure but he is the authority on that, being the voice of the Emperor and all. There was sufficient evidence to condemn these marines in his eyes. That you disagree with the evidence that Brazen Drakes Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes doesn't mean Custodian Tyvar has to agree. In fact, your disagreement on this point would see you arrested or shot as well, most likely.
2) Other chapters have not been sanctioned for doing worse - but they should have been. This is crap writing.
3) Guardsmen have absolutely been accused of corruption without reason. Even civilians have. Just look at the first war for Armageddon, where the entire planetary population was condemned to death without trial, Guardsmen and all, for simply being in proximity to a chaos invasion - even if they were on the other side of the world (i.e. about as related to the Chaos invasion as the Brazen Drakes Greyshields were to the Brazen Drakes). The only surprising thing about this was that the Marines weren't, and that's silly writing.
Vaktathi wrote:Right off the immediate top of my head, there was the Mordant 13th Regiment, as detailed in the Tactica Imperialis book that BL put out written by Abnett & Hoare. They fought against, and defeated a Chaos force led by an Emperor's ChildrenCSM named Jihar the Lacerator, halting his black crusade. Notes of the campaign detail how even without hand to hand fighting and extreme dissuasions by Preachers to avoid enemy dead, conversations are had about contamination being possible (though not actually witnessed or confirmed). As soon as Jihar the Lacerator was defeated, the 13th Mordant was wiped out from orbit on Inquisitorial order. The Inquisitor notes how he saw the spirit of the emperor in the breast of each trooper, felt divine presence upon the battlefield and believed vengeful angels fought alongside the 13th Mordant...and proceeds to order their annihilation simply for having been in contact with Chaos forces, of course only after personally setting foot on the battleground and inspecting the bloody remains of the dead Jihar (all that stuff they forbade the troopers doing) himself
Well, there's your reason right there (my emphasis). They, mortal humans, fought against Chaos directly. And while they *might* have been safe, that was down to the Inquisitor's discretion, which they had every right to do, under 40k rules.
Unlike the Greyshield incident, where there is no cause for suspicion, these Guardsmen had engaged in an activity that could arouse suspicion.
Sgt. Cortez wrote:Also reminds me a bit of the events around the abyssal crusade. All those chapters were in a similar Situation to the greyshields here: their homeworlds were corrupted so they were all seen aa corrupted too and sent into the Eye to die (or turn to Chaos apparently....)
That's the thing though - the Abyssal Crusade only had some much weight behind it because there was a massive warp storm that caused a bunch of corruption in local Hive Worlds, to the point where people feared the Space Marines had also been affected. More importantly, Saint Basillius conducted tests for purity, and found them guilty. So not only was there a reason to suspect the Marines (a recent Warp storm), but also testing!
Now, we later learn that those tests were fabricated, and none of the Marines were corrupt in the first place (which is only figured out after some return, and, surprise surprise, are tested), but that still stands that Marines are still tested and screened before accusations of heresy are thrown about. There needs to be a reason for suspecting them.
Unit1126PLL wrote:1) There is evidence. The fact that you, personally, Sgt. Smudge, believe that Greyshields are not part of the Chapter does not mean that Custodian Tyvar agrees with your interpretation of Imperial bureaucracy. He saw them as part of the Brazen Drakes
Then Custodian Tyvar doesn't understand what Greyshields are. Or, more importantly, it sounds like the writer doesn't understand what Greyshields are.
I'm not saying that Custodes are infalliable, but they are hyper-intelligent, and would be absolutely aware of the fact that Greyshields are not part of a Chapter.
That's not an interpretation, that's fact. This isn't some kind of "well, you can argue that Rune Priests aren't the same as Librarians" bureaucracy, this is "they flat out aren't related".
and you're free to argue that they aren't with him at your leisure but he is the authority on that, being the voice of the Emperor and all. There was sufficient evidence to condemn these marines in his eyes. That you disagree with the evidence that Brazen Drakes Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes doesn't mean Custodian Tyvar has to agree. In fact, your disagreement on this point would see you arrested or shot as well, most likely.
If that's genuinely what Tyvar though, this author is worse than I imagined.
Custodes are intelligent. Your description of one here is not.
It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't. That's like saying "the difference between a bolter and lascannon is a matter of Imperial bureaucracy", when that just flat out incorrect. A Guardsman commander failing to understand what a Greyshield is, I can understand. A Custodian specifically tasked with escorting said Greyshields, one of the most intelligent beings in the Imperium, not knowing that is worse writing that anything else in the story.
2) Other chapters have not been sanctioned for doing worse - but they should have been. This is crap writing.
So you think all Chapters should be wiped out? Because nearly every genetic lineage has had someone turn traitor, and the only similarity between the Greyshields and the Brazen Drakes was genetic lineage.
3) Guardsmen have absolutely been accused of corruption without reason. Even civilians have. Just look at the first war for Armageddon, where the entire planetary population was condemned to death without trial, Guardsmen and all, for simply being in proximity to a chaos invasion
I literally just quoted the 1st War for why the Imperium DOESN'T execute without reason! The planetary population and guardsmen being executed HAD a reason, being a bloody big Daemon Primarch and daemonic invasion occurring! And guess what, they didn't even start wiping out other planets until they had reason to believe that Guardsmen had broken the quarantine, and gone to those specific worlds. They didn't just torch those planets for giggles - they did it for a *reason*.
The First War is about the worst example you can give for "did it without a reason", because everything they did had a cause for suspicion.
Daemonic invasion of a Daemon Primarch? Incredibly corrupting influence, easily puts the whole planet at risk of corruption. Everyone on world is now suspect, but not other planets.
Escaped guardsmen? We have a reason to believe they're corrupted (see above), which means the worlds they land on could be corrupted. Now both worlds are suspect too.
Greyshields? What reason do we have to believe they're corrupted? Well, they're Brazen Dr- but actually, they've got nothing to do with the Drakes. So what's the reason?
even if they were on the other side of the world (i.e. about as related to the Chaos invasion as the Brazen Drakes Greyshields were to the Brazen Drakes).
You can't be serious? Greyshields, born, raised, and trained on a completely different end of the galaxy, with literally no similarity except the same genetic lineage (which dozens of other Chapters share, no doubt), versus people literally born and raised on the same planet, which has been directly affected by one of the most corrupting forces and influences in the galaxy?
Vaktathi wrote:Right off the immediate top of my head, there was the Mordant 13th Regiment, as detailed in the Tactica Imperialis book that BL put out written by Abnett & Hoare. They fought against, and defeated a Chaos force led by an Emperor's ChildrenCSM named Jihar the Lacerator, halting his black crusade. Notes of the campaign detail how even without hand to hand fighting and extreme dissuasions by Preachers to avoid enemy dead, conversations are had about contamination being possible (though not actually witnessed or confirmed). As soon as Jihar the Lacerator was defeated, the 13th Mordant was wiped out from orbit on Inquisitorial order. The Inquisitor notes how he saw the spirit of the emperor in the breast of each trooper, felt divine presence upon the battlefield and believed vengeful angels fought alongside the 13th Mordant...and proceeds to order their annihilation simply for having been in contact with Chaos forces, of course only after personally setting foot on the battleground and inspecting the bloody remains of the dead Jihar (all that stuff they forbade the troopers doing) himself
Well, there's your reason right there (my emphasis). They, mortal humans, fought against Chaos directly. And while they *might* have been safe, that was down to the Inquisitor's discretion, which they had every right to do, under 40k rules.
Unlike the Greyshield incident, where there is no cause for suspicion, these Guardsmen had engaged in an activity that could arouse suspicion.
From my understanding of 40k, I think the line being drawn there just isn't recognized or seen as relevant within the universe, at least not by all. The Guardsmen of the Mordant 13th were fully noted as being fully compliant, victorious, and guided directly by the Emperor's Will, and never got a chance to even speak up to defend themselves despite zero evidence of wrongdoing in anyway (and in fact much the opposite on all counts). For marines who were part of a chapter rebelled, the Marines are part of that chapter, regardless of other circumstances, and that's close enough for gov't work in 40k (again "there is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt/an innocent plea is guilty of wasting my time") to be a suspicious activity in some quarters, and they just happened to be in that quarter at the time.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't.
For me this is the key point, and undermines the story significantly.
The Greyshields are likely Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed (the most commonly used), but could conceivably be Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or whatever.
Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.
The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.
Gargantuan numbers of people have been killed in real life for such tenuous connections, or even less, and while it's absolutely fair to call it out for being stupid, I don't think it's a particularly wild outlier for 40k behavior. That sort of short-sighted lethal over-reaction feels pretty routine for 40k and its dystopian grimdark setting.
Vaktathi wrote: From my understanding of 40k, I think the line being drawn there just isn't recognized or seen as relevant within the universe, at least not by all. The Guardsmen of the Mordant 13th were fully noted as being fully compliant, victorious, and guided directly by the Emperor's Will, and never got a chance to even speak up to defend themselves despite zero evidence of wrongdoing in anyway (and in fact much the opposite on all counts).
But simply because of the undeniable fact they had fought Chaos, there was plenty of reason they *could* have been compromised. It was them fighting Chaos that doomed them, something that has long been established to be an insidious threat.
Compare to the Greyshields. No contact with the traitor Chapter. None of their training or indoctrinated beliefs. Not recruited from the same source. Not exposed to the same environment. Their geneseed isn't even identical (Brazen Drakes would presumably take their geneseed from their own vaults, whereas the Greyshields sent to join them would have pure geneseed from the original Legion from which the Drakes were descended).
If the Brazen Drakes were corrupted, there is no evidence or reason at all to suspect the Greyshields without also accusing every single Space Marine in the galaxy. That's the difference here.
With the Mordant, they aren't just killed because some other regiment turned traitor without any relation to them. They were killed because they had direct exposure to Chaos, and the Inquisitor didn't fancy taking chances with something he knew was a risk.
For marines who were part of a chapter rebelled, the Marines are part of that chapter, regardless of other circumstances, and that's close enough for gov't work in 40k
But that's my point - the Greyshields *weren't* part of that Chapter who rebelled.
What you're implying is that if the Mortifactors turned traitor, the Ultramarines would be traitors as well, without trial.
(again "there is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt/an innocent plea is guilty of wasting my time") to be a suspicious activity in some quarters, and they just happened to be in that quarter at the time.
I agree that once the Greyshields start arguing back, they've signed their own death warrant. My point is that the Custodian had no in-character reason to start the argument by accusing them of corruption.
Vaktathi wrote:Gargantuan numbers of people have been killed in real life for such tenuous connections, or even less, and while it's absolutely fair to call it out for being stupid, I don't think it's a particularly wild outlier for 40k behavior. That sort of short-sighted lethal over-reaction feels pretty routine for 40k and its dystopian grimdark setting.
Whereas I find the grimdarkness comes from the extreme overreactions when problems are found, not when characters just act like dicks for the sake of it. The grimdarkness comes when characters take the most brutal, inhumane approach, because it's sometimes more effective than being kind. In the Custodes' case, that doesn't happen.
The Custodian acts without impulse. There is no reason for someone like a Custodes to suspect a Greyshield of the same crimes as a completely unrelated Chapter. Therefore, their action is unfounded. Had the Greyshields said something first, or weren't Greyshields, but actual members of the Chapter, I'd be all aboard this story, but that not what we have.
harlokin wrote:Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.
The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.
Agreed. We're looking at two completely different groups of Astartes here. There's no connection between them, so the Custodes blaming them collectively either undermines the intelligence of the Custodes, or is simply just an authorial mistake.
There's a famous high level inquisitor who is known for executing anyone he investigates. The innocent are burned just like witches and heretics because they wasted his precious time by failing to appear innocent enough to avoid being questioned by him.
I have this image of a major chaos lord someday standing over his dying body, having defeated him and asking if he remembered him. He then tells karamazov that decades ago the inquisitor acknowledged his parents were innocent, then burned them alive for wasting his time determining they were innocent.
"..and that was the day the god Tzeentch offered me power, and I accepted."
(I don't care who you are, now that's funny!)
So yes, we have major league inquisitors knowingly executing the innocent on grounds of petty arrogance, and are still allowed to sit in judgement of people.
The custodes actions were just par for the course in the 40k imperium. I don't think the writer made a mistake, I don't think what the custodes did was right, I just think it was a tuesday in the 40k universe.
Those 200 or so Astartes are not going anywhere. Their locations are known. They’re not getting reinforcements.
Yes there will be a Butcher’s Bill by the end of the affair. But better that than letting potential traitors the chance to rearm and head out into the wider Galaxy.
Right up until the plasma drives start going critical, or they manage to seize a ship and jump to warp.
The best way to contain this would be to play along, tell the marines to gather in the launch bays to prepare to assault the planet and then space them out the airlocks and give your macrocannon gunners some fun target practice.
SGT_Smudge, you're granting far too much specialness to space marines.
You've fallen back on 'well they're just guardsmen so of course they'll be executed without cause' because your argument is based on the premise that space marines are super special exceptions to the everyday brutality of the Imperium.
I'm not sure whether you've bought into the fandom hypetrain that includes gems like 'marines are 8 foot tall 1 tonne monsters that shoot coke cans at their enemies', or have inferred this specialness from somewhere else.
Yes, space marines have a higher rank on the imperial pecking pole, but any special treatment comes more from their military force as protection against retribution than some imperial edict that says 'thou shalt not consider marines capable of the same kind of rebellion you execute guardsmen for in the same circumstances'.
If a marine chapter's strength was less than it is, they would be being executed at the same rate as guard regiments - perhaps more often because unlike rebellious guardsmen, rebellious marines live longer and are harder to kill, making them a strategically temporal threat beyond the flash in a pan rebellion.
In the end there is no part of the Pax Imperialis that grants special exemptions to space marines.
But there is part of the law of the galaxy that a full strength marine chapter is something you don't want to piss off, regardless of how right you are or how many laws you have behind you.
Matt Swain wrote:There's a famous high level inquisitor who is known for executing anyone he investigates. The innocent are burned just like witches and heretics because they wasted his precious time by failing to appear innocent enough to avoid being questioned by him.
But Karamazov at least has a reason to do things. If he's on a planet, it's not for the gaks and giggles, it's because something went wrong there. If something went wrong, there's your suspicion.
The Custodian had no such in-character reason for suspicion.
The custodes actions were just par for the course in the 40k imperium. I don't think the writer made a mistake, I don't think what the custodes did was right, I just think it was a tuesday in the 40k universe.
I disagree. Tuesday in 40k would be the Marines saying something out of line, or the Custodian having an actual reason to suspect them, then wiping them all out. Aka, there's a REASON, even if it's misguided or immoral.
I feel that a lot of you are missing what I'm saying. I don't think that the Custodian killing the Marines was out-of-character. The issue is that the Custodian had no reason to suspect that the Marines would be a problem, because they were Greyshields.
Let's recontextualise this with a police officer, and a random member of the public. They're having a totally innocent, regular conversation, when suddenly, the police officer shoots the civilian dead on the spot. Now, it later turns out that the victim was a mass murderer, and they would have been charged with a death penalty. But that doesn't change the fact the police officer acted with no evidence (not so much an issue for 40k), but no actual REASON to even suspect the civilian. Like, it's completely totally irrational, almost like the script dictated that's what they had to do. The concept itself is so irrational, I think that's what's confusing a lot of you.
My complaint isn't that the Custodian needs evidence or authority. My complaint is that the Custodian had no actual impulse or reason to even act in the first place!
Hellebore wrote:SGT_Smudge, you're granting far too much specialness to space marines.
You've fallen back on 'well they're just guardsmen so of course they'll be executed without cause' because your argument is based on the premise that space marines are super special exceptions to the everyday brutality of the Imperium.
Ughhhhh. That's completely not what I said. Did you actually *read* what I put?
The guardsmen aren't even executed without cause! They're executed because of *suspicion of exposure to Chaos*. There's your cause!
Now, what cause does the Custodian have to accuse the Space Marines of being a traitor? Geneseed? Not isolated. Training? Doctrine? Indoctrination? Not applicable to Greyshields. Upbringing? Recruitment pool? Homeworld? Not applicable either. Communication? The Custodian/Astropath should have all control over that.
In short, he has no pre-emptive reason to suspect the Greyshields. Now, as soon as a Greyshield says something in defence of the Drakes, he *would* have a reason - but in the extract, that's not what happens.
I'm not sure whether you've bought into the fandom hypetrain that includes gems like 'marines are 8 foot tall 1 tonne monsters that shoot coke cans at their enemies', or have inferred this specialness from somewhere else.
Yes, space marines have a higher rank on the imperial pecking pole, but any special treatment comes more from their military force as protection against retribution than some imperial edict that says 'thou shalt not consider marines capable of the same kind of rebellion you execute guardsmen for in the same circumstances'.
If a marine chapter's strength was less than it is, they would be being executed at the same rate as guard regiments - perhaps more often because unlike rebellious guardsmen, rebellious marines live longer and are harder to kill, making them a strategically temporal threat beyond the flash in a pan rebellion.
In the end there is no part of the Pax Imperialis that grants special exemptions to space marines.
But there is part of the law of the galaxy that a full strength marine chapter is something you don't want to piss off, regardless of how right you are or how many laws you have behind you.
Again, you've completely ignored what I put. Read it again. You clearly didn't read the first time.
I'm not saying Marines are special. I'm saying that even Guardsmen aren't executed without reason. Armageddon, Mortant - neither of those cases are without their reasons.
I know you so desperately want to latch onto "you're just a Marines fanboy", but that's not what I've said. I'm pointing out that the Imperium operates on an extreme "one strike and you're out" policy, where the moment you do something suspicious, you are immediately at risk of condemnation. However, that requires you to raise someone's suspicions. Something like having fought on a highly corrupting battlefield, or spoken in support of an enemy, or not given your tenth prayer facing exactly 33 degrees north. The Greyshields do nothing to raise the Custodian's suspicions. That is why the Custodian acting is improper - because it should be a reaction, not an action.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't.
For me this is the key point, and undermines the story significantly.
The Greyshields are likely Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed (the most commonly used), but could conceivably be Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or whatever.
Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.
The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.
This. Sgt_Smudge's point is that it's weird the custodes thought the grey shields were traitors even though he's fully aware that the grey shields have no connection whatsoever with the marines on the planet EXCEPT a shared gene seed. So if sharing a primarch is what makes them traitors, then literally every other chapter descended from that primarch should also be traitors. If their geneseed came from Vulkan, for instance, then the custodes should believe that the Salamanders are now also heretics because they share the same geneseed as the Brazen Drakes.
And if geneseed isn't the custode's reason for calling the grey shields traitors, what is? Keep in mind, he called them traitors before they spoke out in defense of the Brazen Drakes. They've never met Brazen Drakes. They've never been on the same battlefield as Brazen Drakes. The only thing that makes them Brazen Drakes is a shared primarch and Guilliman (or whomever) deciding that they should go join the Brazen Drakes (which they haven't done yet).
No one is saying that the custodes actions were "too mean." No one is saying that it's out of character for marines to be killed if there's even the slightest suspicion that they've fallen to chaos. In this story, there is no evidence at all that the gray shields have fallen to chaos. I don't mean that I happen to think they're probably innocent and gosh shucks it sure would be nice if the custodes would have a polite chat about their thoughts on the matter. I mean that there was no logical connection between the grey shields and the Brazen Drakes at the time the custodes declared them traitors.
If his only reason for declaring them traitors was the words "Brazen Drakes" scribbled on their name tags, then by the same logic he would be compelle to commit suicide if someone added "Brazen Drakes" next to his name on the ship's rosters. And if the custodes is that dumb or silly, then I've clearly failed to pick up on the satirical, comedice tone that this story was going for.
I'm genuinely baffled by peoples' objections to Smudge pointing out this inconsistency.
The thing is Sgt_Smudge's objection is actually the heart of the story. When a Chapter goes rogue, it's entire roster is deemed traitors regardless of their personal actions. Regardless of how removed they are from the hersey at hand. Yes, even these guys who's only crime is someone put Brazen Drakes in their personnel file and dispatched them to a world no one knew was in termoil are suspect also. They have one choice, surrender to be judged or be judged for failing to surrender. There is no talking this through rationally. The Imperium of Man takes no chances when it comes to rebellion in the ranks, especially the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes.
There is a reason the story is named Consequences. It is about people paying the Consequences for other people's actions.
alextroy wrote: The thing is Sgt_Smudge's objection is actually the heart of the story. When a Chapter goes rogue, it's entire roster is deemed traitors regardless of their personal actions. Regardless of how removed they are from the hersey at hand. Yes, even these guys who's only crime is someone put Brazen Drakes in their personnel file and dispatched them to a world no one knew was in termoil are suspect also.
The custodes knows that the gray shields have no connection to the Brazen Drakes. If his logic for condemning them is being on the roster, then he's acting in a very stupid fashion. That stupidity is internally inconsistent with the intelligence custodes are supposed to possess. And that's my issue. It's an inconsistency with the internal logic of the setting.
They have one choice, surrender to be judged or be judged for failing to surrender. There is no talking this through rationally.
Well, they were already judged by the custodes to be traitors. It's not like he was offering them a chance to peacefully disarm so that their guilt could be determined later. He immediately decided they were traitors for no reason other than "Brazen Drakes" being scribbled above their names a few weeks ago.
The Imperium of Man takes no chances when it comes to rebellion in the ranks, especially the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes.
There was no chance to opt out of taking. There was zero reason to think that the marines would rebel at the time the custodes declared them traitors. Unless you mean armed conflict within the fleet, in which case the custodes took that from a possibility to a guarantee by immediately escalation the situation. By that logic, the custodes now have to go wage a war against every chapter sharing the same primarch as the Brazen Drakes if not every chapter in general. After all, those chapters have the same reason to be suspected as the gray shields (i.e. no reason at all).
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant. But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.
Prejudice is all he needs... it's kind of like reactionary bigots make the Imperium go round... oh, wait..!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?
Power, and the capacity to wield it in a political context - those chapters have more of it than a random no-name faction... like how resistance movements rely on building a reputation and recognition, the realpolitik should be pretty obvious to pinpoint. Like how all those radical inquisitors get to keep on radic-ing - power and the capacity (not ability) to use it. 40k makes a lot more sense when viewed through the lens of factions-within-factions of space fascists unable to wield their power due to the bucket of crabs effect. Because, to borrow a phrase "Nazis are messy bitches."
alextroy wrote:The thing is Sgt_Smudge's objection is actually the heart of the story.
The heart of the story is "even the smallest infraction will damn you". Not "Custodes are so dumb they think if you put a different name tag on you're suddenly evil".
Had those Marines been Brazen Drakes, or Greyshields which acted first, the story would be find, and still have the same heart.
When a Chapter goes rogue, it's entire roster is deemed traitors regardless of their personal actions.
Good thing those Marines weren't Brazen Drakes then, isn't it? At the risk of repeating myself, in an official capacity (which is what you're appealing to by this whole "the entire Chapter regardless of removal is traitors" logic) those Marines were not attached to the Brazen Drakes. Those Marines officially were Greyshields of *insert Legion here*. Hell, their whole trip, and the reason for the Custodes presence, was to make them official Brazen Drakes! So the Custodian was well aware that these Marines weren't connected, officially or unofficially, with the Brazen Drakes.
They have one choice, surrender to be judged or be judged for failing to surrender. There is no talking this through rationally. The Imperium of Man takes no chances when it comes to rebellion in the ranks, especially the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes.
Now, that part, like I've said countless times, I'm not disagreeing with. The moment the Marines say anything other than "how shall we execute the Brazen Drakes milord?" is when they sign their death warrant. That's not the part I;m talking about. Ignore that, and maybe we'll get somewhere.
I'm talking about the immediate start of the story - I'm talking about the Custodian immediately calling the Marines traitors before they can even breathe. Why? Those Marines aren't Brazen Drakes. Why is he treating them like they're Brazen Drakes?
It makes about as much sense as if he was travelling with some Ultramarines, and then when he gets the call that the Brazen Drakes are traitors, draws his weapon on the Ultramarines before they even say anything. It's complete lunacy, even for 40k standards. Again, if this *was* 40k standards, where are all the other Chapters that have been wiped out by Custodians following Tyvar's logic?
There is a reason the story is named Consequences. It is about people paying the Consequences for other people's actions.
The reason it is called Consequences is the consequences of your own, that even speaking in your defence will bring dire ramifications, or that suddenly attacking 200 Marines in your fleet will have consequences.
And if your interpretation of the title were correct, there's still a way the story can match that and still make sense in 40k.
Have the Marines on the ship be Brazen Drakes. Remove any mention of Greyshield, remove the entire spiel about "accepting Cawl's miracle" - what's the problem in that edit? Those Marines now actually have a reason to be suspected by Tyvar, but could still easily have been truly innocent.
Wyldhunt wrote:
Spoiler:
alextroy wrote: The thing is Sgt_Smudge's objection is actually the heart of the story. When a Chapter goes rogue, it's entire roster is deemed traitors regardless of their personal actions. Regardless of how removed they are from the hersey at hand. Yes, even these guys who's only crime is someone put Brazen Drakes in their personnel file and dispatched them to a world no one knew was in termoil are suspect also.
The custodes knows that the gray shields have no connection to the Brazen Drakes. If his logic for condemning them is being on the roster, then he's acting in a very stupid fashion. That stupidity is internally inconsistent with the intelligence custodes are supposed to possess. And that's my issue. It's an inconsistency with the internal logic of the setting.
They have one choice, surrender to be judged or be judged for failing to surrender. There is no talking this through rationally.
Well, they were already judged by the custodes to be traitors. It's not like he was offering them a chance to peacefully disarm so that their guilt could be determined later. He immediately decided they were traitors for no reason other than "Brazen Drakes" being scribbled above their names a few weeks ago.
The Imperium of Man takes no chances when it comes to rebellion in the ranks, especially the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes.
There was no chance to opt out of taking. There was zero reason to think that the marines would rebel at the time the custodes declared them traitors. Unless you mean armed conflict within the fleet, in which case the custodes took that from a possibility to a guarantee by immediately escalation the situation. By that logic, the custodes now have to go wage a war against every chapter sharing the same primarch as the Brazen Drakes if not every chapter in general. After all, those chapters have the same reason to be suspected as the gray shields (i.e. no reason at all).
Can't fault a word of this. Someone's actually been reading my posts, and gets what I'm saying. Thank you.
Catulle wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Again, the moment the Captain refused to obey the Custodian, he signed his death warrant. But that doesn't change that the Custodian shouldn't have been accusing the Greyshields (who have had nothing to do with anything) of anything.
Prejudice is all he needs... it's kind of like reactionary bigots make the Imperium go round... oh, wait..!
If prejudice is all he needs, why hasn't Tyvar here exterminated every other Space Marine he comes across?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: That just creates even more problems - if Custodes have such a massive hate-boner for Marines, why aren't they purging the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Blood Ravens, etc. who have all had elements of the Chapter turn to Chaos?
Power, and the capacity to wield it in a political context - those chapters have more of it than a random no-name faction... like how resistance movements rely on building a reputation and recognition, the realpolitik should be pretty obvious to pinpoint. Like how all those radical inquisitors get to keep on radic-ing - power and the capacity (not ability) to use it. 40k makes a lot more sense when viewed through the lens of factions-within-factions of space fascists unable to wield their power due to the bucket of crabs effect. Because, to borrow a phrase "Nazis are messy bitches."
But these are Custodians. They're not like Inquisitors who have to marshall other people's power. Custodians have their own archeotech, their own small armies of helots and indentured servants, individual numbers to overwhelm several Chapters at one, and their own fleet to match, as well as Sisters of Silence. Custodes are, almost uniquely within the Imperium, loved/respected/feared by all, regardless of station. They're to a Space Marine what Space Marines are to guardsmen.
It should be trivial for the Custodes to exterminate a loyal Chapter. Fly to their homeworld with as many Custodes as you think necessary, cloak the rest of the fleet, use the Sisters of Silence to silence their astropathic choirs before the attack, and then wipe them out internally.
If the Custodes wanted to kill Space Marines, they could. Why don't they?
Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?
Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?
Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?
Training exercise is how I usually do it
A perfectly sensible approach, no more or less so than a bureaucratic typo causing an attempted exterminates, a Custodes Officer with a grudge, or a commissar declaring a space marine chapter as heretics with no evidence. All perfectly reasonable justifications for a 40k battle in my book.
Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?
The point of contention is not at all whether or not the Custodes and Astartes ever come to blows, and that should be evident through reading what has been said.
Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?
The point of contention is not at all whether or not the Custodes and Astartes ever come to blows, and that should be evident through reading what has been said.
I thought I was pretty clear on my views regarding the initial point of contention 2 or 3 pages ago in this thread and didn’t think it necessary to reiterate the same point once again. I was specifically addressing the question asked by Sgt_Smudge as to why Custodes don’t attempt to attack another space marine chapters by demonstrating that there is no evidence to suggest that they don’t, and that the background stories exist primarily to give a setting to explore on the tabletop, in our imaginations and in the expanded writings available, both professionally and amateur. There is no requirement for the level of internal consistency he seems to be seeking, and I would argue that this would in fact be detrimental to the setting, and to the hobby as a whole.
I'm sure they do kill Marines. But with actual reason to suspect them, unlike this.
Christ, it's like you're not even reading my posts. Inter-Imperial conflict is fine. But at least have the combatants have a reason to suspect the other. It can be as simple as "prayed 32 degrees north instead of 33" or "your Chapter Master insulted ours two thousand years ago!" or "you took too long to help us".
There simply wasn't a reason in this story! The Custodes know that the Greyshields aren't related to the Brazen Drakes any more so than the Sisters of Silence are. If they're happy to kill Space Marines for 0 reason, why didn't they do the same with the Sisters?
Isn’t this the entire point of making the galaxy spanning setting for the game to be played in? So that I’d you want to play a game where it’s Custodes vs Space Marines there is room in the setting for you to play the game with “your guys” the way you want to. How else do you justify a battle between Custodes and grey knights? Or sisters of battle vs ultramarines? Or imperial guard vs imperial knights? Or Custodes vs Custodes for that matter?
Anything that has a reason is good in my eyes.
This story didn't have one.
"Bbbbut they had orders to kill the Brazen Drakes!" - Yes, but Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes. "Bbbbut they are still Space Marines!" - So are 998800 others. Does that mean Tyvar now has orders to kill them all? "Bbbbut they could have had communications with the enemy!" - So could the Sisters of Silence, the servants on the ship, or even the Custodes. Did Tyvar kill any of them?
If someone presented 'Consequences' as the fluff for why the two armies were fighting, I'd be saying exactly the same thing - what motive do the Custodes have to have started this fight? It'd be like saying "yeah, my army's lore is that they were called in to wipe out the traitor Genericus Marines Chapter, that's why they're fighting you." "But I'm not playing Genericus Marines, I'm playing Space Wolves?" "Hahaha yeah lol well now they're on the table so you're traitors now" It completely bypasses why they're actually on the table in the first place (aka, why the Custodian accused the Greyshields).
Matt Swain wrote:If you want a battle between loyal SMs and custodes it's easy to explain:
Alpha legion slipped both sides messages saying the other side had gone traitor.
Since the general attitude in the imperium is "Shoot first ask questions never." both sides would likely attack on sight.
Hey, it's a fine reason. At least both sides have been directly told it's the other side that's a traitor, not "these guys are traitors, which means this other completely unrelated army is traitorous too!"
Aash wrote: I was specifically addressing the question asked by Sgt_Smudge as to why Custodes don’t attempt to attack another space marine chapters by demonstrating that there is no evidence to suggest that they don’t,
No, that's not what I said at all.
I made it clear that Custodes attacking Marines with reasons is fine. If I had a problem with that, I'd be complaining about how they're attacking the Brazen Drakes. I'm not complaining about that though, because they have a reason to do so.
They do not have a reason to attack the Greyshields. THAT'S the point I'm getting at. If they're going to accuse the totally innocent Greyshields of heresy, then they should be accusing every Space Marine Chapter as well. It's not hard to see the difference?
Brazen Drakes + Doing Something Suspicious = Custodes Attack. This makes sense. Greyshields + Doing Nothing Suspicious At All = Custodes Attack. This doesn't make sense.
Custodes attack Chapters when they have REASON to. Consequences doesn't provide a reason at all.
and that the background stories exist primarily to give a setting to explore on the tabletop, in our imaginations and in the expanded writings available, both professionally and amateur. There is no requirement for the level of internal consistency he seems to be seeking, and I would argue that this would in fact be detrimental to the setting, and to the hobby as a whole.
If wanting a reason for why two armies are fighting is "detrimental to the setting", I'm rather glad I don't play with you.
Even if the reason is as simple as "they are fighting over the last banana on the planet", that's better than "Custodes attacks because STORY SAYS SO".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't.
For me this is the key point, and undermines the story significantly.
The Greyshields are likely Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed (the most commonly used), but could conceivably be Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or whatever.
Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.
The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.
Didn't SGT_Smudge say something about Space Marines agreeing to be tested before they were sent to their death? So Space Marines put down their weapons, went through vigorous testing(eventually fabricated), and then agreed to fly to their deaths in the warp without resisting? Could it be that chapters agree to be tested and evaluated by the Inquisition and that's why the Custodes don't try to kill all the original chapters that the geneseed originates from?
Even if the reason is as simple as "they are fighting over the last banana on the planet", that's better than "Custodes attacks because STORY SAYS SO".
Or Custodes attacks because Space Marine fails to follow order and is showing they are a heretic. If the Space Marine knew they weren't traitors why would they resist? The other Space Marine chapters that have been accused of heresy have gone through testing without resisting? It isn't logical that they would resist when they know they aren't tainted.
“If the Custodes wanted to kill Space Marines, they could. Why don’t they?”
As for the rest of your post, I have been reading your posts, I have already addressed the point you are repeating, and you didn’t agree with my view, which is your right. I didn’t feel the need to repeat myself for the sake of perpetuating an argument when it is pretty clear we have differing opinions and as far as I can see we aren’t going to convince each other.
However, as you asked, I’ll summarise briefly (please correct me if I misunderstood):
- overall you like the story, as do I. - you feel that grey shields and belonging to a chapter are mutually exclusive, I don’t. - you feel the Custodes was unprovoked and acted out of character/illogically regarding established lore. I don’t. - I feel that the fact that the Greyshields en-route to join the brazen Drakes have been assigned to that chapter is sufficient for them to be considered heretics by the Custodes Officer alongside the rest of the chapter who the haven’t yet met. You disagree. -you feel the removal of the term Greyshields from the short story would improve your enjoyment of the story, I feel that this would be detrimental to my enjoyment of the story.
Does that sound about right?
As for saying there was no justification for the Custodes to behave the way he did, we fundamentally disagree. From where I stand, we are at an impass so I thought there would be no benefit in repeating the same views to each other time and again.
As for playing each other, I think it’s unfortunate you wouldn’t want to play against me as I’m sure we’d have a great time playing a game and bickering over the points of the lore we like/dislike etc, but each to their own.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't.
For me this is the key point, and undermines the story significantly.
The Greyshields are likely Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed (the most commonly used), but could conceivably be Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or whatever.
Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.
The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.
Didn't SGT_Smudge say something about Space Marines agreeing to be tested before they were sent to their death? So Space Marines put down their weapons, went through vigorous testing(eventually fabricated), and then agreed to fly to their deaths in the warp without resisting? Could it be that chapters agree to be tested and evaluated by the Inquisition and that's why the Custodes don't try to kill all the original chapters that the geneseed originates from?
So why haven't the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, etc been thrown into the Warp on Chapter-wide penitent Crusades then?
And again, I hasten to remind you, the ONLY reason the Chapters of the Abyssal Crusade were even tested in the first place was because there was a cause to suspect their treason. The Greyshields don't have a reason to be suspected, therefore, the Custodian had no in-character reason to demand their testing.
Even if the reason is as simple as "they are fighting over the last banana on the planet", that's better than "Custodes attacks because STORY SAYS SO".
Or Custodes attacks because Space Marine fails to follow order and is showing they are a heretic.
Missing my point, but I'll correct my statement to make it clearer:
"Custodes ACCUSES because story says so". There. Better?
The Marines failing to follow orders is grounds for the attack, yes. However, there are no grounds for the Custodian calling the Marines traitors in the first place.
If the Space Marine knew they weren't traitors why would they resist? The other Space Marine chapters that have been accused of heresy have gone through testing without resisting? It isn't logical that they would resist when they know they aren't tainted.
It wasn't a case of "if you don't resist, we'll find you innocent". It was a case of "you're already traitors, now let's decide how we want to kill you - suicide via crusade, or execution".
You make it sound like there was ever a chance for the Greyshields to be seen as innocent. The Custodian's first words disprove that. He *starts* proceedings by calling them traitors. Not "oh, just surrender and we'll examine your case" or "let's see if you're innocent or not".
Again, to make it clear, the Marines resisting is their problem, but that doesn't change that the Custodian acted without any reason to suspect them in the first place.
“If the Custodes wanted to kill Space Marines, they could. Why don’t they?”
Yes, but the important part is apparently, in your version of 40k, they shouldn't need any proof or reason to suspect them, and should immediately be calling all Space Marines traitors.
It's not that Custodes don't attack Marines. They absolutely do - but they do it because they have founded suspicions, unlike in this story.
However, as you asked, I’ll summarise briefly (please correct me if I misunderstood):
- overall you like the story, as do I.
- you feel that grey shields and belonging to a chapter are mutually exclusive, I don’t.
- you feel the Custodes was unprovoked and acted out of character/illogically regarding established lore. I don’t.
- I feel that the fact that the Greyshields en-route to join the brazen Drakes have been assigned to that chapter is sufficient for them to be considered heretics by the Custodes Officer alongside the rest of the chapter who the haven’t yet met. You disagree.
-you feel the removal of the term Greyshields from the short story would improve your enjoyment of the story, I feel that this would be detrimental to my enjoyment of the story.
Does that sound about right?
Sort of. You're missing the point that my arguments are backed up by sources in the lore where distinctions like Greyshields being distinct from a Chapter or Custodians actually being somewhat rational by Imperial standards are canon.
I don't "feel" that Greyshields are distinct in the same way I don't "feel" that Ultramarines are blue. They flat out are.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's not a case of "Imperial bureaucracy", it's a case of Greyshields flat out not being anything to do with their parent Chapter prior to meeting. No ifs, no buts, no grey area. They just aren't.
For me this is the key point, and undermines the story significantly.
The Greyshields are likely Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed (the most commonly used), but could conceivably be Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or whatever.
Think about it in that context..... Primaris of Ultramarine geneseed, allocated to the Brazen Drakes, are summarily executed en-route, because the aforementioned Chapter (with which they have had no connection) turned traitor.
The author simply doesn't seem to understand the relationship (or lack thereof) between Greyshields and their allocated Chapter.
Didn't SGT_Smudge say something about Space Marines agreeing to be tested before they were sent to their death? So Space Marines put down their weapons, went through vigorous testing(eventually fabricated), and then agreed to fly to their deaths in the warp without resisting? Could it be that chapters agree to be tested and evaluated by the Inquisition and that's why the Custodes don't try to kill all the original chapters that the geneseed originates from?
So why haven't the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, etc been thrown into the Warp on Chapter-wide penitent Crusades then?
And again, I hasten to remind you, the ONLY reason the Chapters of the Abyssal Crusade were even tested in the first place was because there was a cause to suspect their treason. The Greyshields don't have a reason to be suspected, therefore, the Custodian had no in-character reason to demand their testing.
Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy? The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?
Spoiler:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Missing my point, but I'll correct my statement to make it clearer:
"Custodes ACCUSES because story says so". There. Better?
The Marines failing to follow orders is grounds for the attack, yes. However, there are no grounds for the Custodian calling the Marines traitors in the first place.
If the Space Marine knew they weren't traitors why would they resist? The other Space Marine chapters that have been accused of heresy have gone through testing without resisting? It isn't logical that they would resist when they know they aren't tainted.
It wasn't a case of "if you don't resist, we'll find you innocent". It was a case of "you're already traitors, now let's decide how we want to kill you - suicide via crusade, or execution".
You make it sound like there was ever a chance for the Greyshields to be seen as innocent. The Custodian's first words disprove that. He *starts* proceedings by calling them traitors. Not "oh, just surrender and we'll examine your case" or "let's see if you're innocent or not".
Again, to make it clear, the Marines resisting is their problem, but that doesn't change that the Custodian acted without any reason to suspect them in the first place.
Not sure why this is so confusing to you. The Custodes doesn't care if they are connected or not. He is not going to bring reinforcements to the planet for a chapter going to heresy. What should he do? Leave them on the ships to potentially take the ships while he goes to the planet and then gets stabbed in the back? Obviously his intuition told him to suspect them and they resisted and started fighting on the ships!. Intuition is a real thing. Generally based on the experiences of someone who has seen a scenario play out multiple times over and over again.
I didn’t miss that you have other lore sources, I just didn’t think it necessary to mention it when summarising you’re position, but yes, you have referenced multiple sources. Clearly I don’t hold them in the same esteem as you.
Equally, Ultramarines are not always blue, throughout multiple rule books, codexes and expansions space marine chapters are specifically mentioned as adapting the colour of their armour to what is most suited to their environment, desert camo, urban warfare, etc.
My view of the lore in general is a large and expansive setting/sand box where I’m perfectly willing to accept internal inconsistencies, unreliable narrators, blatant contradictions and failures of logic in the service of the themes of the setting and the stories we make up in those settings. I enjoy suspending my disbelief in this way for this setting in a way I wouldn’t necessarily for another (when reading the Tolkien legendarium I thoroughly enjoying it being as internal consistent as possible, and an disappointed when this internal consistency fails).
As such, I have no issue in going along with this story where Greyshields are considered as part of the brazen drakes by the Custodes Officer. Equally I am willing to accept that there might be more going on than has initially been presented to the reader, especially since this is a short story and not a novel.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy?
Ah, like the Space Wolves, when they... attacked the Inquisition and Grey Knights? Sounds like they did far worse than the Greyshields, no?
Remember, there were no tests done on the Greyshields. They were declared as heretic before they'd even said a word. Not "accused" of heresy. *Declared*.
The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?
There weren't Brazen Drakes on the ship. They were Greyshields.
They resisted because they believed in due process (basically, they didn't know they were in a 40k story), but it doesn't change the fact that they should never have been accused in the first place.
Not sure why this is so confusing to you. The Custodes doesn't care if they are connected or not.
So why isn't this Custodian also going out and declaring the Ultramarines as traitors if he doesn't give a hoot about needing a reason?
Like, just to make this clear, you're saying that it would be completely in-character for him, with no provocation at all, to accuse every Space Marine in the galaxy of heresy?
He is not going to bring reinforcements to the planet for a chapter going to heresy. What should he do? Leave them on the ships to potentially take the ships while he goes to the planet and then gets stabbed in the back?
Well, I'll tell you what he's not going to do - accuse them of being traitors when they have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes! But, since you asked, here are some things he *could* do:
- Detain them *without calling them traitors*. Use some of that famous Custodes diplomacy and stall for time while conducting tests.
- Lead the Greyshields into battle against the Brazen Drakes. If they resist, then you have your reason to suspect them.
- Exterminatus the Brazen Drakes, and escort the Greyshields back to Guilliman, who can reassign them to a new Chapter.
There are plenty of things the Custodian could and should have done instead of "hahahaha this completely unrelated army MUST be related to the Brazen Drakes!"
Obviously his intuition told him to suspect them and they resisted and started fighting on the ships!. Intuition is a real thing. Generally based on the experiences of someone who has seen a scenario play out multiple times over and over again.
But what intuition was there? What reason was there to suspect them?
He had as much reason to suspect the Greyshields as he did the Sisters of Silence. Why didn't he accuse them of corruption as well?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aash wrote: I didn’t miss that you have other lore sources, I just didn’t think it necessary to mention it when summarising you’re position, but yes, you have referenced multiple sources. Clearly I don’t hold them in the same esteem as you.
I'm just saying, but I've been the only one to mention sources *why* I support my position, and the validity of those sources.
Equally, Ultramarines are not always blue, throughout multiple rule books, codexes and expansions space marine chapters are specifically mentioned as adapting the colour of their armour to what is most suited to their environment, desert camo, urban warfare, etc.
Yes, but they're not bright yellow, are they?
You know what my point is - Ultramarines are blue, not the bright yellow of the Imperial Fists, in the same way that the Greyshields are not the same as Brazen Drakes.
This is not an Ultramarine.
My view of the lore in general is a large and expansive setting/sand box where I’m perfectly willing to accept internal inconsistencies, unreliable narrators, blatant contradictions and failures of logic in the service of the themes of the setting and the stories we make up in those settings. I enjoy suspending my disbelief in this way for this setting in a way I wouldn’t necessarily for another (when reading the Tolkien legendarium I thoroughly enjoying it being as internal consistent as possible, and an disappointed when this internal consistency fails).
As such, I have no issue in going along with this story where Greyshields are considered as part of the brazen drakes by the Custodes Officer.
Whereas I dislike the general idea that 40k has no internal consistency. I'm completely fine with vague stories, or conflicting report-style extracts. But 3rd person omniscient stories like Consequences don't have that degree of separation.
By all means, I respect headcanons and personal interpretations in the face of existing canon (my own Primaris have female Astartes, which isn't directly supported by canon). But I don't agree with blatant contradictions and authors flat out seeming to fail to understand certain concepts.
Equally I am willing to accept that there might be more going on than has initially been presented to the reader, especially since this is a short story and not a novel.
I'm willing to be open to that, but I'm working on what we're told. I'm not going to act like there's some piece that fits the puzzle until I see it.
If there's some future revelation that actually, the Greyshields on that ship *did* have communications, and the Custodian knew about those communications, I'd take it back. But that's not what we've got.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy?
Ah, like the Space Wolves, when they... attacked the Inquisition and Grey Knights? Sounds like they did far worse than the Greyshields, no? Remember, there were no tests done on the Greyshields. They were declared as heretic before they'd even said a word. Not "accused" of heresy. *Declared*.
The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?
There weren't Brazen Drakes on the ship. They were Greyshields.
They resisted because they believed in due process (basically, they didn't know they were in a 40k story), but it doesn't change the fact that they should never have been accused in the first place.
The Inquisition made that call, not the Custodian. In fact, I'd argue the inquisition made that call and sent the message to the ship directly. It wasn't "Sir we've intercepted a transmission saying they're traitors" it's "sir, a message addressed to this very ship says the Brazen Drakes are traitors." That's not the Captains' call, that's the Inquisition's.
If you have a problem with the Inquistion making that call, then that's on you. Just know that to further fear them is redundant, and to hate them is heretical. As for the space wolves? They had badly-written plot armor thicker than the Brazen Drakes that deflected what should have been a fatal blow and that's crap writing.
Not sure why this is so confusing to you. The Custodes doesn't care if they are connected or not.
So why isn't this Custodian also going out and declaring the Ultramarines as traitors if he doesn't give a hoot about needing a reason?
Like, just to make this clear, you're saying that it would be completely in-character for him, with no provocation at all, to accuse every Space Marine in the galaxy of heresy?
He is not going to bring reinforcements to the planet for a chapter going to heresy. What should he do? Leave them on the ships to potentially take the ships while he goes to the planet and then gets stabbed in the back?
Well, I'll tell you what he's not going to do - accuse them of being traitors when they have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes! But, since you asked, here are some things he *could* do: - Detain them *without calling them traitors*. Use some of that famous Custodes diplomacy and stall for time while conducting tests. - Lead the Greyshields into battle against the Brazen Drakes. If they resist, then you have your reason to suspect them. - Exterminatus the Brazen Drakes, and escort the Greyshields back to Guilliman, who can reassign them to a new Chapter.
There are plenty of things the Custodian could and should have done instead of "hahahaha this completely unrelated army MUST be related to the Brazen Drakes!"
Obviously his intuition told him to suspect them and they resisted and started fighting on the ships!. Intuition is a real thing. Generally based on the experiences of someone who has seen a scenario play out multiple times over and over again.
But what intuition was there? What reason was there to suspect them?
He had as much reason to suspect the Greyshields as he did the Sisters of Silence. Why didn't he accuse them of corruption as well?
God you are dense. The Shield-Captain didn't declare them traitors, the Inquisition did. It wasn't like the Shield-Captain was like "oh, there's fighting on the planet below, I bet these guys are TRAITORS TOO RAAAWR!". He was merrily going about his business when the vessel received a transmission from the inquisition saying that the Brazen Drakes were traitors. I quote from the story:
Consequences wrote:Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.
Emphasis mine. I'll repeat it again for ya: IT COULD NOT BE AN ERROR. Because the Inquisition never makes mistakes (except when they attack a target armored with plot).
So what was the Shield Captain supposed to do? Call the Ordo Hereticus up on his cell phone and be like "hey, so, um, Greyshields, are they - y'know - also Heretics? I mean, they're not really with the chapter, but kinda are. I mean they've adopted their livery and stuff, but like, technically - oh darn they're taking over the fleet, pardon me Inquisitor."
Instead, he asks the Greyshields to disarm, which I don't think is unreasonable at all. It's even lenient within the setting, as the story helpfully points out, and he offers that option twice.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ah, like the Space Wolves, when they... attacked the Inquisition and Grey Knights? Sounds like they did far worse than the Greyshields, no?
Remember, there were no tests done on the Greyshields. They were declared as heretic before they'd even said a word. Not "accused" of heresy. *Declared*.
Told to put down their weapons to be taken into custody. Pretty simple.
Spoiler:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: There weren't Brazen Drakes on the ship. They were Greyshields. They resisted because they believed in due process (basically, they didn't know they were in a 40k story), but it doesn't change the fact that they should never have been accused in the first place.
If they weren't Brazen Drakes why does the Captain tell his forces to consider everyone not a Brazen Drake hostile? Or should we blame the author for writing that rather than Greyshields?
Spoiler:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: So why isn't this Custodian also going out and declaring the Ultramarines as traitors if he doesn't give a hoot about needing a reason? Like, just to make this clear, you're saying that it would be completely in-character for him, with no provocation at all, to accuse every Space Marine in the galaxy of heresy?
Lets scale this back. He isn't accusing anyone of heresy. He received a message that the Brazen Drakes were traitors. He is executing what he received. If they are on the planet or on his ship and they are a Brazen Drake they are tainted. Telling someone who has been confirmed as a traitor to drop their weapons and come into custody isn't out of story or character for a Custodes.
Spoiler:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Well, I'll tell you what he's not going to do - accuse them of being traitors when they have nothing to do with the Brazen Drakes! But, since you asked, here are some things he *could* do:
- Detain them *without calling them traitors*. Use some of that famous Custodes diplomacy and stall for time while conducting tests.
- Lead the Greyshields into battle against the Brazen Drakes. If they resist, then you have your reason to suspect them.
- Exterminatus the Brazen Drakes, and escort the Greyshields back to Guilliman, who can reassign them to a new Chapter.There are plenty of things the Custodian could and should have done instead of "hahahaha this completely unrelated army MUST be related to the Brazen Drakes!"
- He tried to detain them. They refused and that led to the conflict.
- And risk getting shot in the back. Yeah this is a non-starter
- You honestly believe after reading the story the Brazen Drakes on the ship won't join sides with their Chapter on the planet and fight back? Did we read the same story?
Spoiler:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But what intuition was there? What reason was there to suspect them? He had as much reason to suspect the Greyshields as he did the Sisters of Silence. Why didn't he accuse them of corruption as well?
Because one of those forces he is bringing as reinforcements to the traitors on the planet and the other is the Sisters of Silence. If he asked the Sisters of Silence to surrender their weapons and they resisted he probably would have killed them as well. I just don't see them resisting.
I appears you are willing to die on the hill that since these marines were called Greyshields they can't be Brazen Drakes. And yet the story uses both Brazen Drakes and Greyshields both in conjunction with each other and interchangeably.
"The world of Khassedur had been their destination through long months of toil and trial, across blazing battlefields and amidst the teeth of ferocious warp storms. Their duty had been to reach it, to deliver the two full companies of Brazen Drakes Greyshields to their newly adopted home world, and to see that Chapter Master Kaslyn accepted the gift of Cawl’s Miracle."
This 4th paragraph tells so much about the attitudes of the characters involved. Everyone on the ship, including the Greyshields themselves, has seen these marine in actions across various battlefields operating as Brazen Drakes. Everyone sees them as Brazen Drakes. Even their actions later in the story shows they feel it themselves. Even a loyalist will be loath to believe their brothers in arms are traitors.
So maybe, just maybe Greysheilds has more than on narrow meaning. Maybe, just maybe there is more to the choice of words of "Brazen Drakes Greyshields" than you are giving credit to. Maybe GW did this on purpose to add to the lore about Greyshields, not in defiance of what you believe it to be.
And that is the tragedy here. A bunch of Primaris Greyshield have rebuilt their identities as Brazen Drakes and finally arrive at their new home to finally inducted into their new chapter only to find themselves in the inconcieveable situation of finding their new identity to be that of a traitor. Cue the bolters.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy?
Ah, like the Space Wolves, when they... attacked the Inquisition and Grey Knights? Sounds like they did far worse than the Greyshields, no?
Remember, there were no tests done on the Greyshields. They were declared as heretic before they'd even said a word. Not "accused" of heresy. *Declared*.
The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?
There weren't Brazen Drakes on the ship. They were Greyshields.
They resisted because they believed in due process (basically, they didn't know they were in a 40k story), but it doesn't change the fact that they should never have been accused in the first place.
The Inquisition made that call, not the Custodian. In fact, I'd argue the inquisition made that call and sent the message to the ship directly. It wasn't "Sir we've intercepted a transmission saying they're traitors" it's "sir, a message addressed to this very ship says the Brazen Drakes are traitors." That's not the Captains' call, that's the Inquisition's.
If you have a problem with the Inquistion making that call, then that's on you. Just know that to further fear them is redundant, and to hate them is heretical. As for the space wolves? They had badly-written plot armor thicker than the Brazen Drakes that deflected what should have been a fatal blow and that's crap writing.
What?? The Inquisition declares the Brazen Drakes as traitors. Not the Greyshields.
There's literally no reason the Greyshields should be suspected of anything.
God you are dense. The Shield-Captain didn't declare them traitors, the Inquisition did.
Read the first line. Read it again. Read it a third time, just to get it in.
"Apprehend these traitors." Those are the Custodian's own words to the Greyshields. That is the Shield-Captain calling the Greyshields traitors. The Inquisition never mentioned the Greyshields.
It wasn't like the Shield-Captain was like "oh, there's fighting on the planet below, I bet these guys are TRAITORS TOO RAAAWR!".
Except it literally is. The guys with him aren't the same guys as the ones on the planet.
He was merrily going about his business when the vessel received a transmission from the inquisition saying that the Brazen Drakes were traitors. I quote from the story:
Consequences wrote:Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.
Emphasis mine.
Great, you can read! But that doesn't change the fact that the Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.
So why does the Custodian accuse the Greyshields of corruption?
So what was the Shield Captain supposed to do? Call the Ordo Hereticus up on his cell phone and be like "hey, so, um, Greyshields, are they - y'know - also Heretics? I mean, they're not really with the chapter, but kinda are. I mean they've adopted their livery and stuff, but like, technically - oh darn they're taking over the fleet, pardon me Inquisitor."
The Greyshields are no closer to the Chapter than his own Custodes or the Sisters of Silence are. Why doesn't Tyvar arrest the Sisters?
They weren't taking over the fleet until Tyvar calls them traitors without reason.
He asks the Greyshields to disarm, which I don't think is unreasonable at all.
Except he doesn't. Use that ability to read the extract, and tell me what the first line is again?
Not "disarm these potential traitors".
"Apprehend these traitors."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
alextroy wrote: I appears you are willing to die on the hill that since these marines were called Greyshields they can't be Brazen Drakes. And yet the story uses both Brazen Drakes and Greyshields both in conjunction with each other and interchangeably.
Author error. They're not infalliable.
In all previous works, Greyshields are not considered parts of the Chapters they are sent to prior to their arrival.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Because the original chapters were tested and free of heresy?
Ah, like the Space Wolves, when they... attacked the Inquisition and Grey Knights? Sounds like they did far worse than the Greyshields, no?
Remember, there were no tests done on the Greyshields. They were declared as heretic before they'd even said a word. Not "accused" of heresy. *Declared*.
The Brazen Drakes on the ship were asked to put down their weapons and agree to be tested. Obviously they(Brazen Drakes on the ship) thought something would come up in the testing or they thought they needed to get to the surface and help their rogue chapter out? Or why would they resist?
There weren't Brazen Drakes on the ship. They were Greyshields.
They resisted because they believed in due process (basically, they didn't know they were in a 40k story), but it doesn't change the fact that they should never have been accused in the first place.
The Inquisition made that call, not the Custodian. In fact, I'd argue the inquisition made that call and sent the message to the ship directly. It wasn't "Sir we've intercepted a transmission saying they're traitors" it's "sir, a message addressed to this very ship says the Brazen Drakes are traitors." That's not the Captains' call, that's the Inquisition's.
If you have a problem with the Inquistion making that call, then that's on you. Just know that to further fear them is redundant, and to hate them is heretical. As for the space wolves? They had badly-written plot armor thicker than the Brazen Drakes that deflected what should have been a fatal blow and that's crap writing.
What?? The Inquisition declares the Brazen Drakes as traitors. Not the Greyshields.
The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: There's literally no reason the Greyshields should be suspected of anything.
Except for them being Brazen Drakes, and the Brazen Drakes being traitors, of course.
God you are dense. The Shield-Captain didn't declare them traitors, the Inquisition did.
Read the first line. Read it again. Read it a third time, just to get it in.
"Apprehend these traitors." Those are the Custodian's own words to the Greyshields. That is the Shield-Captain calling the Greyshields traitors. The Inquisition never mentioned the Greyshields.
It wasn't like the Shield-Captain was like "oh, there's fighting on the planet below, I bet these guys are TRAITORS TOO RAAAWR!".
Except it literally is. The guys with him aren't the same guys as the ones on the planet.
He was merrily going about his business when the vessel received a transmission from the inquisition saying that the Brazen Drakes were traitors. I quote from the story:
Consequences wrote:Understand the lenience I show you in this, for your Chapter is confirmed Hereticus Diabolus Extremis.’
The designation scrolled across the hololith, repeating beneath the damning seal of the Ordo Hereticus. It could not be an error. They all knew it, even Gerion.
Emphasis mine.
Great, you can read! But that doesn't change the fact that the Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.
So why does the Custodian accuse the Greyshields of corruption?
Because the story says that the Greyshields are Brazen Drakes. The fact that you think this is impossible despite the people in charge of the lore explicitly stating it is incomprehensible to me. Your fan-fiction that Greyshields aren't also part of the Chapter shouldn't be used to demean this story.
So what was the Shield Captain supposed to do? Call the Ordo Hereticus up on his cell phone and be like "hey, so, um, Greyshields, are they - y'know - also Heretics? I mean, they're not really with the chapter, but kinda are. I mean they've adopted their livery and stuff, but like, technically - oh darn they're taking over the fleet, pardon me Inquisitor."
The Greyshields are no closer to the Chapter than his own Custodes or the Sisters of Silence are. Why doesn't Tyvar arrest the Sisters?
They weren't taking over the fleet until Tyvar calls them traitors without reason.
It's not Tyvar who calls them traitors, it's the Inquisition.
alextroy wrote: I appears you are willing to die on the hill that since these marines were called Greyshields they can't be Brazen Drakes. And yet the story uses both Brazen Drakes and Greyshields both in conjunction with each other and interchangeably.
Author error. They're not infalliable.
In all previous works, Greyshields are not considered parts of the Chapters they are sent to prior to their arrival.
Ah, yes, GW made an error when publishing the lore, rather than them simply changing the lore. I see. Your picture of the lore that they own is so comprehensive and complete that it must be them who are wrong.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Told to put down their weapons to be taken into custody. Pretty simple.
"Apprehend these traitors."
If they weren't Brazen Drakes why does the Captain tell his forces to consider everyone not a Brazen Drake hostile? Or should we blame the author for writing that rather than Greyshields?
Yes, actually. Clearly, the author doesn't understand what a Greyshield is.
Lets scale this back. He isn't accusing anyone of heresy.
"Apprehend these traitors."
Read the first line again.
He received a message that the Brazen Drakes were traitors.
And there are no Brazen Drakes on that ship.
- He tried to detain them. They refused and that led to the conflict.
He declared that they were traitors.
- And risk getting shot in the back. Yeah this is a non-starter
He is just as likely to be shot in the back by his own Custodes or Sisters of Silence as he is by the Greyshields, under the information he actually has.
- You honestly believe after reading the story the Brazen Drakes on the ship won't join sides with their Chapter on the planet and fight back? Did we read the same story?
I'm saying the Custodian had no way of knowing that prior to him making the first move and accuse them of heresy.
Once the Custodian plays his hand, the Marines make their allegiance clear. But that wasn't the case prior to the Custodian's involvement.
Because one of those forces he is bringing as reinforcements to the traitors on the planet and the other is the Sisters of Silence.
So two unrelated factions. Thank you for proving my point.
If he asked the Sisters of Silence to surrender their weapons and they resisted he probably would have killed them as well. I just don't see them resisting.
But why didn't he ask, when he had equal reason to suspect them?
Unit1126PLL wrote: The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.
Goto was very explicit that Storm Bolters are pistols, Marines use multilazors, and chainfists can't cut through barbed stranger webs.
Yes, and it has since been retconned. Once it's retconned that Greyshields may, in some situations, be members of their chapter (or considered members of their chapter than the wider Imperium) then I'll consider that the new lore as well.
Unit1126PLL wrote: The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.
I disagree. All previous work indicates that they are considered distinct. I'm inclined to believe the author made a simple mistake.
Except for them being Brazen Drakes, and the Brazen Drakes being traitors, of course.
Except they're not Brazen Drakes.
Because the story says that the Greyshields are Brazen Drakes. The fact that you think this is impossible despite the people in charge of the lore explicitly stating it is incomprehensible to me.
Ah, like backflipping Terminators? Multilazors on everything?
Your fan-fiction that Greyshields aren't also part of the Chapter shouldn't be used to demean this story.
You mean the fanfiction like Dark Imperium, the White Dwarf Flesh Tearers extract, and Of Honour and Iron?
The story is incorrect. No big deal, right?
It's not Tyvar who calls them traitors, it's the Inquisition.
"Apprehend these (Greyshields) traitors."
The Inquisition never mentioned Greyshields.
Apprehend is essentially the same thing. It's lenient for 40k because it isn't "execute".
"Apprehend these TRAITORS".
Ah, yes, GW made an error when publishing the lore, rather than them simply changing the lore. I see. Your picture of the lore that they own is so comprehensive and complete that it must be them who are wrong.
What is that, like, three recently made publications supporting Greyshields being distinct and individual, versus one webstory?
Unit1126PLL wrote: The story is explicit that the Greyshields are also Brazen Drakes. I think your understanding of the lore is flawed.
Goto was very explicit that Storm Bolters are pistols, Marines use multilazors, and chainfists can't cut through barbed stranger webs.
Yes, and it has since been retconned. Once it's retconned that Greyshields may, in some situations, be members of their chapter (or considered members of their chapter than the wider Imperium) then I'll consider that the new lore as well.
Once it's retconned, yes. But that's not happened yet.
Because the story says that the Greyshields are Brazen Drakes. The fact that you think this is impossible despite the people in charge of the lore explicitly stating it is incomprehensible to me.
Ah, like backflipping Terminators? Multilazors on everything?
Your fan-fiction that Greyshields aren't also part of the Chapter shouldn't be used to demean this story.
You mean the fanfiction like Dark Imperium, the White Dwarf Flesh Tearers extract, and Of Honour and Iron?
The story is incorrect. No big deal, right?
Those were published earlier. Retcons are a thing in fictional universes. There's also a few assumptions that can be made to square the circle here, but you're unwilling to consider reasonable assumptions since they're not written there in black and white. So there it is, in black and white - these Greyshields are Brazen Drakes.
Ah, yes, GW made an error when publishing the lore, rather than them simply changing the lore. I see. Your picture of the lore that they own is so comprehensive and complete that it must be them who are wrong.
What is that, like, three recently made publications supporting Greyshields being distinct and individual, versus one webstory?
If quantity mattered at all for retcons, then Disney's movies would be less canon than Star Wars's EU.
There's also a few reasonable assumptions to get around the issue and make it not a retcon, but again, you're unwilling to think past what's on the page.
Except for them being Brazen Drakes, and the Brazen Drakes being traitors, of course.
Except they're not Brazen Drakes.
Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it true.
Exactly. So why are people saying the Greyshields are Brazen Drakes?
Those were published earlier. Retcons are a thing in fictional universes. There's also a few assumptions that can be made to square the circle here, but you're unwilling to consider reasonable assumptions since they're not written there in black and white. So there it is, in black and white - these Greyshields are Brazen Drakes.
Just like those black and white backflipping Terminators?
Three modern pieces, versus one webstory. I think I know which I'm going to put more faith in, until things get further developed.
Now who's adding words to the text?
I didn't add anything. I clarified for you what the Custodian was saying, seeing as you seem to be missing it.
No, it mentioned the Brazen Drakes, which these Greyshields are, as is clear from the story.
Greyshields aren't Brazen Drakes.
It's fairly obvious.
I think it's more obvious the author made a mistake, myself.
If quantity mattered at all for retcons, then Disney's movies would be less canon than Star Wars's EU.
Context is a lovely thing, isn't it? It's almost like purchasing a new property and explicitly declaring a new canon is different to one single webstory.
There's also a few reasonable assumptions to get around the issue and make it not a retcon, but again, you're unwilling to think past what's on the page.
Oh, I know. I've presented several reasonable assumptions and solutions myself, yet people just don't seem to be a fan.
I think you and I will have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid.
At this point, you're repeating your lies (as well as bringing in a whataboutism from Goto) and I'm just gonna keep calling them false. That's not a productive discussion; good luck.
You're wrong. In the story the Captain refers to himself as a Brazen Drake. The author refers to the Brazen Drakes on the ships several times. The Custodes also refers to the Brazen Drakes on the ships as Brazen Drakes. The only person insisting they are Greyshields and not Brazen Drakes is you. For some reason you have it in your head despite all the evidence that these Space Marines are not Brazen Drakes. Its all over the short story. I listed it out earlier and yet you still don't understand that concept. 13 times!!!
Jjohnso11 wrote: You're wrong. In the story the Captain refers to himself as a Brazen Drake. The author refers to the Brazen Drakes on the ships several times. The Custodes also refers to the Brazen Drakes on the ships as Brazen Drakes. The only person insisting they are Greyshields and not Brazen Drakes is you. For some reason you have it in your head despite all the evidence that these Space Marines are not Brazen Drakes. Its all over the short story. I listed it out earlier and yet you still don't understand that concept. 13 times!!!
Yup. And in every other story that mentions Greyshields, they are notably distinct and unrelated from their parent Chapter until they are properly integrated.
Your only source for Greyshields being connected is this one story. Mine is a series of them, in a variety of major and minor publications.
I think I know which one I'm going to pay more attention to.
I don't care what's all over the short story. I care what's mentioned elsewhere. It's far more likely that one author is wrong instead of three.
Your only source for Greyshields being connected is this one story. Mine is a series of them, in a variety of major and minor publications.
I think I know which one I'm going to pay more attention to.
I don't care what's all over the short story. I care what's mentioned elsewhere. It's far more likely that one author is wrong instead of three.
Considering this short story is this short story and the characters/motive/plot are centered around this short story- I'm going to go with what the author is writing about in his short story that was published on a website ran by the company who approves canon for this setting.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Considering this short story is this short story and the characters/motive/plot are centered around this short story- I'm going to go with what the author is writing about in his short story that was published on a website ran by the company who approves canon for this setting.
The characters being Greyshields AND Brazen Drakes isn't critical to the story. I've demonstrated several ways you can tell this story with exactly the same themes, and have it actually make congruent sense with the other publications of the company who approve canon for the setting.
I don't think there is really something wrong with your proposed changes, it just seems that a number of people that responded here see them as not as crucial as you do for the story to make sense. I see your point, appreciate your arguments and don't see them as false. It's just that they don't convince me as the sole "right" intetpretation. And I too agree with the former poster that when the author mentions that these greyshields are Brazen Drakes in the eyes of everyone concerned at 13 points in his story, that his point comes across clear enough and therefore the acts of Tyvar fit the WH40k narrative.
I don't think anything is wrong with your edits. In my mind you're trying to George Lucas Han Solo shot first this story. As has been pointed out numerous times this setting isn't logical. The Custodes being a total clown to Space Marines he perceives to be just like any other Space Marine makes sense for me personally. I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you and stop bothering you about this.
Wow, I'm beginning to understand the trainwreck factor thing. I mean this thread is a trainwreck at this point and the acrimony is actually both astounding and sad to see, yet I cannot look away.
I have to ask one question about the custodes now. Because there's one thing I see as a glaring issue.
The emperor himself created the space marines, they were made at his command and under his supervision. The primarchs were I believe made from the emperor's own DNA in some ways.
So the space marines are in a sense the handiwork of the emperor himself.
Now the costodes worship the emperor as a god. If they worship the emperor then shouldn't they respect his creations, the space marines?
If they truly view all marines with suspicion and doubt, isn't that doubting the work of their god and implying his work will always fail and become corrupted?
I mean if they think of the emperor as god then shouldn't they respect his creations more, and aren't the space marines one of his greatest creations?
Matt Swain wrote: Wow, I'm beginning to understand the trainwreck factor thing. I mean this thread is a trainwreck at this point and the acrimony is actually both astounding and sad to see, yet I cannot look away.
I have to ask one question about the custodes now. Because there's one thing I see as a glaring issue.
The emperor himself created the space marines, they were made at his command and under his supervision. The primarchs were I believe made from the emperor's own DNA in some ways.
So the space marines are in a sense the handiwork of the emperor himself.
Now the costodes worship the emperor as a god. If they worship the emperor then shouldn't they respect his creations, the space marines?
If they truly view all marines with suspicion and doubt, isn't that doubting the work of their god and implying his work will always fail and become corrupted?
I mean if they think of the emperor as god then shouldn't they respect his creations more, and aren't the space marines one of his greatest creations?
Space Marines were mass produced out of the geneseed of their Primarchs. It is unlikely they will ever see the Emperor in person.
Custodes were rumored to have been made from the Emperor himself. They also have a solemn duty to personally protect the Emperor. Their greatest dishonor is failing to protect him when one of the Primarchs killed the Emperor.
So you have it backwards. Also the Horus Heresy showed that out of 'one of his greatest creations' half went traitor and tried to kill him and destroy the entire empire he created. Its pragmatic to doubt the work of someone who has a 50% failure rate.
Unless the think the Emperor planned on half his Primarchs and their Legions to rebel, I'm sure the Custodes see the Astartes as flawed creations. It's not like they weren't around when the Emperors said "I don't have any more time to perfect these guys. This will have to do."
As for the old Brazen Drakes Greyshields controversy, it's called alliterative shorthand. In those three words we get so much information. These are Primaris Marines who have never met their old marine chapter battle brothers but are considered to be of that chapter. Maybe Greysheild means these are guys who fought in the Indominus Crusade. Or maybe it just means they are from one of Cawl's batches of Primaris who are even now being sent out on their first foray into the galaxy. More information may come in War of the Spider, so stay tuned!
Matt Swain wrote: Wow, I'm beginning to understand the trainwreck factor thing. I mean this thread is a trainwreck at this point and the acrimony is actually both astounding and sad to see, yet I cannot look away.
I have to ask one question about the custodes now. Because there's one thing I see as a glaring issue.
The emperor himself created the space marines, they were made at his command and under his supervision. The primarchs were I believe made from the emperor's own DNA in some ways.
So the space marines are in a sense the handiwork of the emperor himself.
Now the costodes worship the emperor as a god. If they worship the emperor then shouldn't they respect his creations, the space marines?
If they truly view all marines with suspicion and doubt, isn't that doubting the work of their god and implying his work will always fail and become corrupted?
I mean if they think of the emperor as god then shouldn't they respect his creations more, and aren't the space marines one of his greatest creations?
You missed a crucially important detail here, the custodes do not worship the emperor as a God, in fact they are the only ones left who truly know of his goal of a secular imperium with them as its guardians.
The emperor specifically and painstakingly made them not only to be his guardians, but also his companions who should be able to converse with. The custodes from when the emperor was still around would never worship him as a God because he specifically told them he does not want to be one or worshipped as one. In 40k maybe some few custodes think of him as a godlike figure, but they don't worship him as a god.
I never knew much about the custodes, they never really interested me. I must say if they wanted to represent the emperor's vision of a society based on reason it sounds like they failed here.
Pyroalchi wrote: I don't think there is really something wrong with your proposed changes, it just seems that a number of people that responded here see them as not as crucial as you do for the story to make sense. I see your point, appreciate your arguments and don't see them as false. It's just that they don't convince me as the sole "right" intetpretation. And I too agree with the former poster that when the author mentions that these greyshields are Brazen Drakes in the eyes of everyone concerned at 13 points in his story, that his point comes across clear enough and therefore the acts of Tyvar fit the WH40k narrative.
If we all generally agree that "Brazen Drake greyshields" are inconsistent with previous fluff, then it's just a matter of what you want to do with that information. Either...
* Greyshields being tied to a chapter isn't a thing (per the lore everywhere but in this story). In which case, the author made an oopsie. We can't really say whether the custodes is behaving in-character or not because that depends on him interacting with something that doesn't exist in the setting.
* The story is the first sign of a retcon to how greyshields work, and they are, in fact, functionally members of the Brazen Drakes. If this canon is accepted, the custode's behavior is internally consistent with the story. If the canon isn't accepted, then this story joins the ranks of other internally inconsistent bits of lore that people acknowledge or ignore to taste.
Basically, we all just saw a terminator do a back flip, and now we're debating whether backflipping terminators are a thing, or if that was just a weird thing that we'll quietly collectively agree doesn't really make sense.
Matt Swain wrote: I never knew much about the custodes, they never really interested me. I must say if they wanted to represent the emperor's vision of a society based on reason it sounds like they failed here.
They did. Though there is in fact an in lore reason for that albeit a weak one in my opinion: after the emperor took the golden throne roboute gulliman and the custodes agreed that their focus had to be to guard the throne and the emperor even more so than before, so they agreed that the custodes were no longer part of the imperium. They were their own body only responsible for the safety of the emperor, but they were not to interfere with the rest of the imperium. They even made this into law, though this was still in my opinion a formal agreement between them and primarch, because the custodes are not bound by any imperial law.
There also has to be said that right after the heresy the numbers of the custodes had been decimated massively due to staggering losses in the war of the webway, so there were dangerously few of them left and they had to replenish their numbers first.
Still I made a whole thread about how I still think that they are hypocrites because in the thousands of years that followed they could have dedicated a few of their number to advise and guide the leaders of the imperium towards a not so grimdark future, they definitely would have had the authority and the respect to do so.
On the other hand if they did, the setting might not be as cool as it is today with all the more or less over the top grimdarkness.
the custodes also know how easy it would be for them to get wrapped up in the petty partisan politics of the Imperium, now this isn't to say they don't act, but when they do it's more likely going to be with subtle manuverings and enchouaring the right people who can make a differance to take action, rather then take action themselves.
BrianDavion wrote: the custodes also know how easy it would be for them to get wrapped up in the petty partisan politics of the Imperium, now this isn't to say they don't act, but when they do it's more likely going to be with subtle manuverings and enchouaring the right people who can make a differance to take action, rather then take action themselves.
This is a fair point and it would be absolutely true for real life politics. 40k and in this case the custodes are different though for a couple of reasons. The custodes are above any governing body in the imperium, they represent the word of the emperor himself as per his own verdict.
Now in real life this would be a massive problem because this would mean almost unlimited political power for the custodes as individuals and as a faction, which in real life would automatically lead to massive corruption. The custodes in this fictional universe however are completely incorruptible. There has not been a single one of them who turned traitor or abused his power in a way that would go against the emperors vision during their whole history and they have been since before the unification wars.
This comes at the cost of being extremely hard, expensive and time consuming to produce, but they would have had the political authority and the skills to lead the imperium to a better future when the emperor took the golden throne. And I don't mean as rulers, but as advisers and emissaries. There would still be corruption and grimdarkness in the imperium, but they could have set an example of what the emperor had originally envisioned.
Edit: also you are right, they did in fact act and influence certain people they deemed important over the course of their history, but my point is that it could have been healthier and more effective for the narrative of the imperium as a whole if they did it in a smart, but more public way. Though I've said many times, if they did and were written this way there could have been only two outcomes from an outside narrative perspective: either they succeed and the imperium wouldn't be as grimdark as it is now and therefore change the entire setting (which would suck), or they try and fail miserably, which would make them seem weak as a faction (which would also suck), because the perfect, incorruptible golden gods of the emperor with unlimited political power could still not change a thing for the better
So I generally really enjoy how they were written, the only thing I dislike is that the writers missed a golden opportunity with them: I've said this multiple times, but they should have written that the emperor can't keep the webway gate beneath the golden throne completely shut all the time, so from time to time demons can slip into the throneroom itself and the custodes have to fight small to mid size demon invasions in the hearth of the palace itself every couple hundred or thousand years. This would explain their absene during crucial times like the age of apostasy and give them a more legitimate reason to not care for the politics of the imperium than some deal with guilliman after the heresy.
Tiberias wrote: So I generally really enjoy how they were written, the only thing I dislike is that the writers missed a golden opportunity with them: I've said this multiple times, but they should have written that the emperor can't keep the webway gate beneath the golden throne completely shut all the time, so from time to time demons can slip into the throneroom itself and the custodes have to fight small to mid size demon invasions in the hearth of the palace itself every couple hundred or thousand years. This would explain their absene during crucial times like the age of apostasy and give them a more legitimate reason to not care for the politics of the imperium than some deal with guilliman after the heresy.
I think this would be a great idea. GW could also release a box set with Custodes fighting Demons. Missed opportunity...
Tiberias wrote: So I generally really enjoy how they were written, the only thing I dislike is that the writers missed a golden opportunity with them: I've said this multiple times, but they should have written that the emperor can't keep the webway gate beneath the golden throne completely shut all the time, so from time to time demons can slip into the throneroom itself and the custodes have to fight small to mid size demon invasions in the hearth of the palace itself every couple hundred or thousand years. This would explain their absene during crucial times like the age of apostasy and give them a more legitimate reason to not care for the politics of the imperium than some deal with guilliman after the heresy.
I think this would be a great idea. GW could also release a box set with Custodes fighting Demons. Missed opportunity...
Hook me up with someone at gw and I'll pitch it to them
They could still add this to the lore when another custodes codex rolls out in a couple of years, it would not conflict with the current lore, but rather extend it I think.
But ultimately this is just wishful thinking on my part
Or "Hold on. I know the Inquisition says that these people are traitors, but I think we need an independent fact finding mission into this war zone to see what's really happening." 
