Dumbest concept has to be ol' Murderfang complete with Murderclaws. You know, as opposed to all the petting and Rock Paper Scissors that everyone else's claws are used for. Plus his... head is sticking out for some reason? Probably murder-related.
Dumbest looking? I'd go with the Chaos Possessed from the 3.5 edition codex sculpted by Gary Morley.
There's plenty of terrible options, especially from 3rd and 4th edition, but I'm sticking with these.
Dumbest concept has to be ol' Murderfang complete with Murderclaws. You know, as opposed to all the petting and Rock Paper Scissors that everyone else's claws are used for. Plus his... head is sticking out for some reason? Probably murder-related.
The names of the claws withstanding, I don't see how conceptually a wulfen in a dreadnought is dumb? It's no different to a death company dreadnought. The head sticking out is weird, but the older heresy dreads all had the marine's head visible with his helmet on because that's where the marine physically is in the sarophagus. Not having his helmet on is what's really weird - which I assume is because he's too feral and needs to have his senses unencumbered.
In no particular order.
Dreadknight
thunderwolf cavalry
centurions
Very simple solutions that would have made these not so ridiculous:
wolf guard with pet wolf on same base (apparently coming with the next codex)
instead of a marine, both the dreadknight and the centurions would have looked a lot better if they used dreadnought sarcophagi. Centurions would have been the answer to 'what happens when we've saved more veteran marines than we have dreadnoughts for' and the dreadknight is 'what happens when we need more power than a dreadnought for anti daemon shenanigans?'.
Cap'n Facebeard wrote: No one's mentioning the plastic Marine flyers, apart from the Corvus?
They look like bad toybashes and yet are actual models somehow.
The first release was the stormraven and it was terrible. they didn't improve after that. They tried to use the thunderhawk design for nostalgia but made it a tonka toy version which was just aweful. The space wolf ones are a little better, but not much.
i think thunderwolf cavalry are cool, actually. space wolves are at their best when going 110% into the wolf theme
i also really like the dreadknight. the tactical warsuit and the paragon warsuits are also among my favorite walkers in the game, because i'm just a big fan of mechs with exposed pilots. it's impractical, yes, but it's also cool, and that's what really matters. "it's cool" is what 40k is all about
the worst unit is centurions, tho. centurions to me singlehandedly prove the need for primaris
as for something not already mentioned in the thread... tomb blades. awful to build, awful to paint, awful to play with. there's something really promising with the concept, but it needs a second draft badly
Hard to top the Centurion Fat Suit and the Storm Whatever gunship.
Those were bad enough to make me doubt if GW still has it.
The latest round of Ork buggies with no options and no customization were an example of missing the point of the army, esp compared to the great Dakka Jet model.
Worst of the worst, I would pick the 2nd edition mono pose, poorly detailed orks and Marines. That was most folks first brush with the game and they were measurably worse than the RT plastics.
I am going to give a vote to the Sydonian Skatros and all three of the Archaeopter models.
Every time I look at the Sydonian all I can see is Inspector Gadget and for the Archaeopter and wings are goofy enough but I just can get past the chicken legs they have in the back.
Also I know that Ork models are suppose to be silly as part of the comedy but I have always found the Kill/Hunta Rig to be just a little too over the top for me.
Oh yes, especially since they already had some really nice heavy weapon dudes. The Nerfgunners look like a bad 90s comic, like not even Cable or Youngblood level, but like a poor imitation of Youngblood.
At least Centurians are kind of a theme for marines - big blocky designs with lots of guns and weapons and stuff.
This thing though
I just can't quite work out what its design concept is other than "go cart". Like I get the brief; light armour scout style attack vehicle likely intended to be a more modern adaptation of bike+sidecar replacement.
And yet it just looks so - - unmilitary like. It doesn't feel like a big beefy heavy armoured war machine of the Space Marine army.
I was going to say plastic tyranid gargoyles. Plastic made them affordable to me, they came in units of 10-30, were cheap in points and the sculpts were awesome. Sadly they had such a large footprint on the table that I found them parctically unusable. They'd tip over and/or get their broad and spiky wings stuck on other models/eachother all the time, adding to the already considerable frustration of the "oops I tipped over again" hormagaunts.
But mutilators and nerf gun primaris are worse. Has anybody mentioned the primario kart yet?
The original 1980s bloodletters were a bugger for that too. There was one that leant forwards to the point that most of the model was over the edge of the base. I filled the bottom of the base with off-cuts of metal sprues etc but could never get him to stand up.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: i think thunderwolf cavalry are cool, actually. space wolves are at their best when going 110% into the wolf theme
I have the opposite opinion, Space Wolves are at their worst when they lean heavily into the wolf theme. Wolfy McWolfy Whatnow?
I mean, the concept of Viking Space Marines is awesome (as is some of the artwork), but the miniature line is awful and cartoony. Except for the flyer which is decent.
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Kid_Kyoto wrote: Not a bad unit, but a terrible model, the 2010s plastic commissar!
The hat is truly terrible, but it makes a good little mini with the right headswap
Overread wrote: At least Centurians are kind of a theme for marines - big blocky designs with lots of guns and weapons and stuff.
This thing though
I just can't quite work out what its design concept is other than "go cart". Like I get the brief; light armour scout style attack vehicle likely intended to be a more modern adaptation of bike+sidecar replacement.
And yet it just looks so - - unmilitary like. It doesn't feel like a big beefy heavy armoured war machine of the Space Marine army.
I don't mind the thunderwolf cavalry as such, but Father Grimnar's floating chariot to me just combines the worst possible parts of historic and futuristic combat design aesthetics.
Definitely agree with Centurions. That was a model concept that was really reaching for a purpose to exist. Aggressors did the job so much better (and also happen to look like Starcraft Marauders).
The Corvus is a close replica of the Starcraft Medevac dropship, and hence I am primed to find it satisfying, and none of your aquatic reptile shenanigans will shake this from me
Flinty wrote: I don't mind the thunderwolf cavalry as such, but Father Grimnar's floating chariot to me just combines the worst possible parts of historic and futuristic combat design aesthetics.
Definitely agree with Centurions. That was a model concept that was really reaching for a purpose to exist. Aggressors did the job so much better (and also happen to look like Starcraft Marauders).
The Corvus is a close replica of the Starcraft Medevac dropship, and hence I am primed to find it satisfying, and none of your aquatic reptile shenanigans will shake this from me
Cents do pre-date aggressors, but I agree that the primaris replacement does a much better job.
I always viewed centurions as a poor mans’s terminator suit. We are told that TDA armor is rare and hard to make. Treasured relics of a better age. But what do new chapters do to fill the role? Or make to replace lost suits? That’s my headcannon.
From a modeling POV, I think you can leave some bits off to make them better. Still not a huge fan, I’ve had 3 in my primed pile for a while now…
#1 Thunder Wolf Cavalry- remains the dumbest unit in the game both in looks and in what it is. For the record, I was here before Thunderwolf Cav were a thing and full squads of Wolf Guard Terminators all with Assault cannons were the broken thing.
#2 Original Possessed- so bad they redid the models in record time. I think they were on the market for only a year or two.
#3 Wulfin- Almost as ugly as Possessed, but for some reason, they are still out there. Space wolves were so much better and cooler when they were space vikings, not these silly wolf caricatures.
#4 Centurions- Humpty Dumpty Marines on the fat boy program. They dont exactly embody the whole strike hard strike fast and get out mentality that marines are supposed to have.
#5 All the stupid Dinobots- literally all of them. I refuse to use them. Whoever came up with this concept of marines get tanks and chaos get Dinobots needs to be fired.
I have the opposite opinion, Space Wolves are at their worst when they lean heavily into the wolf theme. Wolfy McWolfy Whatnow?
I mean, the concept of Viking Space Marines is awesome (as is some of the artwork), but the miniature line is awful and cartoony. Except for the flyer which is decent.
I think Horus Heresy wolves show how to do it. 40k wolves... well..
Very simple solutions that would have made these not so ridiculous:
instead of a marine, both the dreadknight and the centurions would have looked a lot better if they used dreadnought sarcophagi. Centurions would have been the answer to 'what happens when we've saved more veteran marines than we have dreadnoughts for' and the dreadknight is 'what happens when we need more power than a dreadnought for anti daemon shenanigans?'.
I've thought the same thing. Which is why I've tried to make slightly less derpy versions. I have to say, I think I succeeded.
Personally, whilst Marines are not my thing, I still don't get the Thunderwolf Cavalry hate. Names perhaps yeah; but the idea of giant wolves charging into battle with marines atop sounds 300% 40K madness.
*quietly hides tyranids in the corner before anyone points out daft Tyranid things*
If I collected Space Wolves, it would let me relive the halcyon He-Man days of my youth. Nothing like a burly man's man smashing the bad guys from a ever so angry fuzzy quadruped.
Although that might be part of the problem for others
Flinty wrote: If I collected Space Wolves, it would let me relive the halcyon He-Man days of my youth. Nothing like a burly man's man smashing the bad guys from a ever so angry fuzzy quadruped.
Although that might be part of the problem for others
There's not enough bare chests for He-Man inspiration in the Space Wolves.
How would you like a vehicle with the firepower of a Land Raider? without compromising on transport capacity
And it can also transport a Dreadnought?
Aaand it can fly.
Aaaaaaand it's more heavily armoured than a Rhino?
But don't worry, it's exclusive to Blood Angels and Grey Knights! (lolololol)
I never had an issue with Thunder, Thunder, THUNDERWOLF CAVALRY HO! I'm sorry if 8' tall super soldiers in power armor riding cyborg wolves into battle ain't your bag, what are you doing here?
May as well write a long missive on how impractical the armor design on a Leman Russ is!
But yes, from the era Santa Logan and Murder Face need pictures just to remind us all.
Word on the street is Santa Logan is back on foot with the next codex.
Lord Damocles wrote: How would you like a vehicle with the firepower of a Land Raider? without compromising on transport capacity
And it can also transport a Dreadnought?
Aaand it can fly.
Aaaaaaand it's more heavily armoured than a Rhino?
But don't worry, it's exclusive to Blood Angels and Grey Knights! (lolololol)
Eh it is basically a smaller Thunderhawk.
The real silly part is that Valkyries (and all their variants) are also more heavily armoured than a Rhino.
shortymcnostrill wrote: adding to the already considerable frustration of the "oops I tipped over again" hormagaunts.
You don't get to make that claim unless you're playing with original metal hormagaunts
<eyes his hunter-slayers>
I actually found those metal hormagants less annoying, because at least their secondary spike arms would keep them from faceplanting. I had 3 that I always fielded as I liked the sculpts more (they came in blisters of 2 of course; the 4th hormagaunt I converted into an Alien, which was the style at the time).
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Not a bad unit, but a terrible model, the 2010s plastic commissar!
Options included a plasma pistol OR a bolt pistol!
This one was and is a bitch to paint. My 9th Commissar (attached) was so much better. Buy that.
Space Wolves are fine. People who complain about wolfy mcwolf wolf don't read anything beyond the names.
Centurions are probably my pick. I don't know about the ATV being the worst ("Fast Attack Vehicles" are a thing IRL), and I own several Primaris vehicles - they're a bitch to assemble, though.
Overread wrote: Personally, whilst Marines are not my thing, I still don't get the Thunderwolf Cavalry hate. Names perhaps yeah; but the idea of giant wolves charging into battle with marines atop sounds 300% 40K madness.
that's my feeling. what is 40k if not a deeply unserious game?
riding into battle on a giant wolf is as impractical as using a chainsaw sword
Overread wrote: Personally, whilst Marines are not my thing, I still don't get the Thunderwolf Cavalry hate. Names perhaps yeah; but the idea of giant wolves charging into battle with marines atop sounds 300% 40K madness.
that's my feeling. what is 40k if not a deeply unserious game?
riding into battle on a giant wolf is as impractical as using a chainsaw sword
Thunderwolf Cavalry isn't a bad name. Canis Wolfborn, though-that's a dumb one.
But I agree with the sentiment of Space Wolves being over-the-top and that's good for 40k.
I've not liked Space Wolves for around 30 years - but I'm still drawing a blank at how Thunderwolf Cavalry can be the dumbest thing in 40k. The grav-chariot is probably up there, but not exactly a common sight on tables. I don't think I've given Murderfang more than two moments of thought in years.
Don't really mind the Marine flyers either.
Centurions are probably a fairer observation. Model's aren't great and the concept seemed to define Marine bloat.
Tbh its a boring answer, but I hated the Dreadknight when it came out and I still do. I think its an ugly model and a stupid concept. It goes a long way to me hating the Grey Knights as a faction.
Tyel wrote: I don't think I've given Murderfang more than two moments of thought in years.
I hadnt either - until the shop got a new SW player this fall.
Everytime I play him I have to deal with Fang & a unit of TWC.
Murderfang i dont really mind. Its just a dreadnoughtwith claws & a stupid name.
But the TWC.... I just don't like how they look. Never have. So they always become a priority target.
I must say Space Wolves are basically the only Space Marines I encountered so far and the players using them all like the Wolf stuff and I think it's okay, too. Wulfen are on the more goofy side of things, just like Mutilators, but Thunderwolf-cavalry is just everyday 40K to me, 40K is just that stupid so they never struck me as bad. Marines on wolves, yes of course. Just like Chaos should have their Marines on Juggernauts. Or sit on a palanquin.
Talking about goofy, the plaguecaster and Lord Felthius with their stupid faces I consider very bad. Giving Felthius a headswap is easy, but that caster is just aweful.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I never had an issue with Thunder, Thunder, THUNDERWOLF CAVALRY HO! I'm sorry if 8' tall super soldiers in power armor riding cyborg wolves into battle ain't your bag, what are you doing here?
May as well write a long missive on how impractical the armor design on a Leman Russ is!
But yes, from the era Santa Logan and Murder Face need pictures just to remind us all.
Word on the street is Santa Logan is back on foot with the next codex.
I don't have an issue with all the wolfy stuff as a concept (and while I originally hated it, these days I think Space Santa is perfectly 40K as a model!) ... I just dislike the execution. The thunderwolf models, and the wolves on Logan's chariot, are both horrendous sculpts.
Likewise, the main problem with Murderface the Murdery Dreadnought is the sculpting.
I prefer Viking Space Wolves to Werewolf Space Wolves, for sure. I preferred it when the themes of the space marine chapters were a bit more subtle, but that time is 20 years ago by now.
Picking on Tyranids, the Pyrovore was a terrible unit. Ugly, expensive in money terms and also pretty useless on the battlefield.
Funnily enough, for a lot of factions I genuinely can't think of things I don't like...
There is no Ork model I think is really bad.
I like pretty much all the Tau range.
Eldar aren't my bag but both Craftworld and Dark Eldar do what they set out to do really well.
Tyranids have maybe one or two goofy models and that's it.
Necrons (at least Oldcrons which I prefer) are all great.
Imperial Guard has more clunkers (I don't like the Taurox and some of the vehicles look bad to me)
Space Marines are where they've really got the most bad concepts and models to me, Chaos and Imperial varieties.
But obviously, the core space marine idea is probably the best one in 40K, by far the most iconic design and really cool in background. I think that lead to them really exhausting the creative space for Marines and ending up with these stupid units because all the good ideas had been used up.
Ew, the Taurox, I think the only reason it hasn't been mentioned before is because people (read: me) forget it comes on those stupid tracks everyone immediately converts to wheels
Tyel wrote: I've not liked Space Wolves for around 30 years - but I'm still drawing a blank at how Thunderwolf Cavalry can be the dumbest thing in 40k. The grav-chariot is probably up there, but not exactly a common sight on tables. I don't think I've given Murderfang more than two moments of thought in years.
Don't really mind the Marine flyers either.
Centurions are probably a fairer observation. Model's aren't great and the concept seemed to define Marine bloat.
Tbh its a boring answer, but I hated the Dreadknight when it came out and I still do. I think its an ugly model and a stupid concept. It goes a long way to me hating the Grey Knights as a faction.
I've played space wolves for 30 years and hated seeing my army deliberately flanderised down to wolfwolfywolfwolf over that time. The concept of riding wolves was never even a glimmer in the fluff until they literally appeared out of nowhere in 5th ed as a 'they've always had them' unit. Pet wolves had always been there, and yet somehow rather than the sensible 'grizzled veteran with his megawolf pet' unit idea, we got half tonne marines riding oversized canines who are biomechanically virtually unridable. Even a bear would have been easier to believe.
I was very close to building a counts as thunderwolf unit with marines and the wolf on the base side by side, but the continued deterioration of the army just left a sour taste in my mouth and I didn't bother.
In 2nd ed they had wolf guard, wolf lord, wolf scouts and wolf priest. 4 units with the word wolf in their name. I don't know if someone at GW decided it would be funny to ride that word even harder over the decades, or whether they just didn't care to try and find different words, but they certainly did no favours to the army.
Of the modern marines I'll echo others here - the mario cart and nerf gun rockets are terrible. The rockets especially look so badly put together like they were random bits stuck on a model. I'm also not a fan of the inceptor designs at all. And although the concept is naff, the suppressor autocannon unit actually designwise looks the least ridiculous of the inceptor designs. It's more coherent, they're holding the guns with two hands. The akimbo blaster with shield brick units though look really dumb.
EDIT: As for the wulfen, the concept had been around since 2nd ed, and I've no problem with the idea at all, they're space wolf death company effectively. But the current plastics are gak and I much prefer the more beastman influenced design of 3rd ed.
Hellebore wrote: Pet wolves had always been there, and yet somehow rather than the sensible 'grizzled veteran with his megawolf pet' unit idea, we got half tonne marines riding oversized canines who are biomechanically virtually unridable. Even a bear would have been easier to believe.
Yeah it's one of those cases where the monstrous mount actually looks less dangerous with the rider than if it was just the creature by itself. Because now the creature can't move with agility and the rider can't effectively fight without being thrown.
Would you rather fight a heavyweight boxer or a heavyweight boxer who also has a midget sitting on his shoulders and he isn't allowed to drop him?
It would look less silly to put the wolves in armor and have a guy riding a bike leading them. At least then the wolves could fight normally.
Hellebore wrote: Of the modern marines I'll echo others here - the mario cart and nerf gun rockets are terrible. The rockets especially look so badly put together like they were random bits stuck on a model. I'm also not a fan of the inceptor designs at all. And although the concept is naff, the suppressor autocannon unit actually designwise looks the least ridiculous of the inceptor designs. It's more coherent, they're holding the guns with two hands. The akimbo blaster with shield brick units though look really dumb.
I have to say, I'm not as fan of Primaris weapon design in general, which really leaned into the 'bigger is better' aesthetic and wind up looking less imposing as a result. Regular Primaris Marines look considerably better with regular boltguns instead of the ridiculously large rifles they got instead. Ditto for the Primarisized plasma guns and other special weapons.
Lathe Biosas wrote: I'm sure that someone had already brought up Spider-Man villain Stilt Man, the AdMeh Sniper.
But can someone explain the fluff or reasoning why.... just why.
People have a natural tendency to not look up - they are more likely to look around at eye level or below. So Stilt Guy is practically invisible...
Hotzenplotz wrote: Jokaero weaponsmith. The Imperium hates xenos but lets orangutan aliens dabble with their weapons.
The Imperium is highly Xenophobic unless they can make use of you Heck they had Eldar help fix the Golden Throne. You can't get closer to the heart of the Imperium than that.
Their Xenophobia is basically generations of fear and mantra after bad experiences. It's the same as their fear of AI.
Those at the upper reaches are either fully entrenched in rhetoric and fear; or they are a touch more open minded having seen more of the universe and all.
Heck loads of systems and governors and private firms will trade with Xenos and get xenotech. Highly illegal, but it happens
EDIT: As for the wulfen, the concept had been around since 2nd ed, and I've no problem with the idea at all, they're space wolf death company effectively. But the current plastics are gak and I much prefer the more beastman influenced design of 3rd ed.
I loved the eye of terror campaign 13th company guys. Hard core of veterans left with a neat spin of regular space wolves units and fun easy conversions using CSM equipment parts.
Hotzenplotz wrote: Jokaero weaponsmith. The Imperium hates xenos but lets orangutan aliens dabble with their weapons.
The Imperium is highly Xenophobic unless they can make use of you Heck they had Eldar help fix the Golden Throne. You can't get closer to the heart of the Imperium than that.
Their Xenophobia is basically generations of fear and mantra after bad experiences. It's the same as their fear of AI.
Those at the upper reaches are either fully entrenched in rhetoric and fear; or they are a touch more open minded having seen more of the universe and all.
Heck loads of systems and governors and private firms will trade with Xenos and get xenotech. Highly illegal, but it happens
really, the issue is that Jokaero are an ancient plot thread that never really got followed up on. the imperium is willing to work with xenos to serve its own end... and jokaero are the only example of that being widespread. there could be more like this! more weird random stuff that they claim as exceptions because it's useful
Hotzenplotz wrote: Jokaero weaponsmith. The Imperium hates xenos but lets orangutan aliens dabble with their weapons.
The Imperium is highly Xenophobic unless they can make use of you Heck they had Eldar help fix the Golden Throne. You can't get closer to the heart of the Imperium than that.
Their Xenophobia is basically generations of fear and mantra after bad experiences. It's the same as their fear of AI.
Those at the upper reaches are either fully entrenched in rhetoric and fear; or they are a touch more open minded having seen more of the universe and all.
Heck loads of systems and governors and private firms will trade with Xenos and get xenotech. Highly illegal, but it happens
really, the issue is that Jokaero are an ancient plot thread that never really got followed up on. the imperium is willing to work with xenos to serve its own end... and jokaero are the only example of that being widespread. there could be more like this! more weird random stuff that they claim as exceptions because it's useful
And to be fair the whole of the Rogue Traders on the fringe of the Imperium already supports this. We saw it in the Blackstone Fortress game and who knows perhaps we'll see it again in time. I kind of get the feeling GW could mess with a Rogue Traders game in miniature form one day.
I mean you can go back and look at lots, and I mean lots, of bad sculpts from the early days. But as for just dumb model, dumb concept and dumb rules it has to be the mutilators. Slow moving CC specialists in an army filled with CC units and the models looked horrible. I actually don't think the old obliterators look that bad, it is just something with the mutilators and their dumb "claws" and faces.
Probably not a popular take, but I HATE that Tyranid biological guns are like.... guns that grow out of them but are held in their hand and attached via a tube and all that. It's not the biggest model crime in the game by a long shot, but it consistently bothers me.
LunarSol wrote: Probably not a popular take, but I HATE that Tyranid biological guns are like.... guns that grow out of them but are held in their hand and attached via a tube and all that. It's not the biggest model crime in the game by a long shot, but it consistently bothers me.
What's fun is if you look at early Tyranids they mostly hold their weapons and have maybe one connecting tube. Modern Tyranids there's a LOT more fusion of arm to gun.
Also the Termagaunt standard gun has a magazine under it.
It's freaky to think that the Tyranids are living weapons that also breed living weapons to hold in battle. Personally I love it because it adds another layer of mystery to the Tyranids as to why they do that. It adds to their totally alien behaviour.
I think it is purely functional. Fully intergrated weapons have limited degrees of movement and volume issues, meaning they are either underpowered or require the entire creature being redesigned to accomodate them.
Not a 40k unit but the Ground Eldar Sky Cutter deserves a mention.
A flying Ground Eldar Boat powered by Fairy Dust I can see. But somehow seeing it towed by eagles just ruins it. Came out around the same time as Santa Logan too.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Not a 40k unit but the Ground Eldar Sky Cutter deserves a mention.
A flying Ground Eldar Boat powered by Fairy Dust I can see. But somehow seeing it towed by eagles just ruins it. Came out around the same time as Santa Logan too.
It's another case of "wow I'm sure glad that the giant eagle attacking me has that boat tied to its back forcing it to awkwardly flop around instead of just swooping down and killing me".
I love the skycutter! My only issue with it is similar to aircraft in 40K in that its basically a unit that wants to constantly keep moving and strafe but 40K scales don't really let you do that with a model that big. In a warmaster game or such it would be best as a strafing air unit.
I'm not going to post the photo of it, because I'm not that much of an but I got a nasty puncture wound on the bottom of my foot from chasing a dog and stepping on an old pewter dark Eldar, that was my roommates.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Not a 40k unit but the Ground Eldar Sky Cutter deserves a mention.
A flying Ground Eldar Boat powered by Fairy Dust I can see. But somehow seeing it towed by eagles just ruins it. Came out around the same time as Santa Logan too.
I've removed the 40k tag... that beautiful model makes my brain hurt.
* Centurions
* Dreadknights
* Wolfs riding on Wolfs
* Logan on WulfWulf Chariot
* I don;t like the recent Sisters suits with silly little arms and exposed
* Pretty much all the plastic Marine flyers
Hotzenplotz wrote: Jokaero weaponsmith. The Imperium hates xenos but lets orangutan aliens dabble with their weapons.
The Imperium is highly Xenophobic unless they can make use of you Heck they had Eldar help fix the Golden Throne. You can't get closer to the heart of the Imperium than that.
Their Xenophobia is basically generations of fear and mantra after bad experiences. It's the same as their fear of AI.
Those at the upper reaches are either fully entrenched in rhetoric and fear; or they are a touch more open minded having seen more of the universe and all.
Heck loads of systems and governors and private firms will trade with Xenos and get xenotech. Highly illegal, but it happens
Yup - the Imperium as an organisation is xenophobic. The individuals running the show know full well that some of those xenos are useful, and will make use of that were it suits them.
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vipoid wrote: I'm surprised this thing hasn't even got a mention:
Spoiler:
Pretty much all of the Primaris vehicles fit in there.
I converted a Repulsor to have tracks and fewer weapons, and it still looks significantly less cool than a Land Raider or a Rhino.
vipoid wrote: I'm surprised this thing hasn't even got a mention:
Spoiler:
Pretty much all of the Primaris vehicles fit in there.
I converted a Repulsor to have tracks and fewer weapons, and it still looks significantly less cool than a Land Raider or a Rhino.
Hell I was just gonna say Primaris in general.
The marine line was basically complete somewhere in 3rd or 4th edition. I see the addition of Scout Bikers as the cutoff point, and honestly I could take or leave them. But they get a pass because Scouts existed, Bikes existed, and both are forward acting units.
Sternguard and Vanguard officially came in 5th, but they're a rebranding of Veteran and Assault units that were already there (Assault Squads could be armed with fancy CC weapons in RT and 2nd, and Sternguard are just Veterans that used the Bolters of the Deathwatch rules in 3rd) The Vindicator was added in 3rd, but was brought over from the earlier Epic/Space Marine, as was the Drop Pod.
Dysartes wrote: I'd also suggest a pass for the Land Speeder Storm, as it feels like a suitable sort of transport to get Scouts to a forward position quickly.
The Scouts get a pass as a whole, they are the only Space Marine Unit to survive the great redesign nightmare.
If I played Marines, I could remember the dumb in universe where you put a regular pilot into a dreadnought, and magically the dreadnought becomes quiet and stealthy.
Oh, and he gets a Heavy Bolter Pistol. Oh. The Horror, the Horror.
Dysartes wrote: I'd also suggest a pass for the Land Speeder Storm, as it feels like a suitable sort of transport to get Scouts to a forward position quickly.
The Scouts get a pass as a whole, they are the only Space Marine Unit to survive the great redesign nightmare.
Insectum7 wrote: ^I think Terminators are the only real survivors since the Scouts lost their option for Sniper Rifles.
Scouts didn't lose the option.
1) the codex data sheet/current kit allows 1/5 to take a sniper rifle.
2) the Legends Scout Sniper entry comes standrd with sniper rifles. Its just that most of you just have some odd aversion to using Legends options.
But you CHOOSING not to use all of the rules of the game =/= to the loss of options.
Insectum7 wrote: ^I think Terminators are the only real survivors since the Scouts lost their option for Sniper Rifles.
Scouts didn't lose the option.
1) the codex data sheet/current kit allows 1/5 to take a sniper rifle.
2) the Legends Scout Sniper entry comes standrd with sniper rifles. Its just that most of you just have some odd aversion to using Legends options.
But you CHOOSING not to use all of the rules of the game =/= to the loss of options.
I understand they're in Legends, and I would use them in places that allow them. But tourney rules and league rules are a thing.
But also they shouldn't be in Legends in the first place.
It is a newly imposed restriction whether YOU play with it or not.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Not a 40k unit but the Ground Eldar Sky Cutter deserves a mention.
A flying Ground Eldar Boat powered by Fairy Dust I can see. But somehow seeing it towed by eagles just ruins it. Came out around the same time as Santa Logan too.
Lol the moment that eagle has to make a juke against incoming projectiles that .."boat" flops upside down and throws those high elves against the rocks haha
Tyran wrote: I think it is purely functional. Fully intergrated weapons have limited degrees of movement and volume issues, meaning they are either underpowered or require the entire creature being redesigned to accomodate them.
I've always kind of viewed the Tyranid bio weapons the same way I do mating Anglerfish here on Earth. For those that aren't in the know, Angler Fish females are larger, and when they "mate" a male will come up and bite down on the female's side. Often times multiple males. They will literally NEVER let go, and their bodies fuse to the female. Their circulatory and nervous systems meshes with the female, their brains get absorbed into the female's body, and in essence they become another limb on the female's body.
I'd like to think something similar happens with Tyranids. They have a "base" body for whatever species, and then living bioweapons can clamp on when they determine they'll be needing a certain layout. Add some time for them to mesh into each other.
Specifically the original Archon, warriors and Grotesques.
The vehicles were pretty naff and all.
I'm going to have to disagree a bit here. I actually prefer the spiky look of the older vehicles. At least they look like giant Jetbikes instead of the weird hover-sailboats we have today. I also preferred the look of the Warriors' weapons over newer versions. Their helmets though.... Look like Hella from Thor Ragnarök.
Proportion- and detail-wise, most of the Primaris range (aside from the vehicles) is excellent. I just dislike that they're so big. Likewise, the Primaris dreadnoughts were a fantastic redesign of the boxnaught... but should have been half the size. They're stupidly large for what they are supposed to be.
And yeah, I'll echo the comments on the Primarchs. Making them into 12 foot tall behemoths was the worst mistake GW made in introducing them. It fails in the model range because it looks stupid, and it fails in the fiction because the writers constantly forget about it and so are really inconsistent at taking it into account. For every 'Guilliman waving a bolter around like a pistol', there's a dozen 'are we just assuming that everyone in the galaxy makes 15 foot tall doorways?'
They should never have been Greater Daemon equivalents. The Primarchs, as the blueprints for Space Marines, should have been just... slightly better Space Marines. Same size, same physiology, with their awesomeness coming from battle experience and the hyperbole of 30 thousand years worth of mythology centered around them.
Proportion- and detail-wise, most of the Primaris range (aside from the vehicles) is excellent. I just dislike that they're so big. Likewise, the Primaris dreadnoughts were a fantastic redesign of the boxnaught... but should have been half the size. They're stupidly large for what they are supposed to be.
And yeah, I'll echo the comments on the Primarchs. Making them into 12 foot tall behemoths was the worst mistake GW made in introducing them. It fails in the model range because it looks stupid, and it fails in the fiction because the writers constantly forget about it and so are really inconsistent at taking it into account. For every 'Guilliman waving a bolter around like a pistol', there's a dozen 'are we just assuming that everyone in the galaxy makes 15 foot tall doorways?'
They should never have been Greater Daemon equivalents. The Primarchs, as the blueprints for Space Marines, should have been just... slightly better Space Marines. Same size, same physiology, with their awesomeness coming from battle experience and the hyperbole of 30 thousand years worth of mythology centered around them.
That I would have found awesome. Giant stompy guilliman never clicked for me for exactly those reasons.
The hill giant sized primarchs, to me, is an obvious attempt to stop folks from just converting or kit bashing their own rather than drop a C note on one model.
That would certainly track with GW's general modus operandi around the time Primarchs started showing up.
I had the idea a while back of converting up my own versions of the Primarchs from Primaris Marines - they would work out a much more reasonable size against oldschool Marines. Got as far as picking up a couple of models to get started, and then got sidetracked, so will probably never happen.
The Khorne Lord of Skulls. A model that would have looked infinitly better with legs instead of treads. And the Kytan Ravager proves that.
Col. Dash wrote: #5 All the stupid Dinobots- literally all of them. I refuse to use them. Whoever came up with this concept of marines get tanks and chaos get Dinobots needs to be fired.
Oh I forgot about the heldrake. Such an awesome model, it looked like a mechanical dragon that swaps out its lower half for a jet exhaust. Great sculpt, gives off a bit of a body horror vibe.
Except they stuck two tiny chicken legs to the back, making it no longer a metal flying torso but a weirdly shaped full-size dragon with babylegs. These hind legs transform its exhaust into a giant flaming sphincter, making it impossible to take seriously.
Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.
shortymcnostrill wrote: Except they stuck two tiny chicken legs to the back, making it no longer a metal flying torso but a weirdly shaped full-size dragon with babylegs. These hind legs transform its exhaust into a giant flaming sphincter, making it impossible to take seriously.
So, shorty, question - how would you have included some form of landing gear in the design, if not clawed legs?
Gadzilla666 wrote: The Khorne Lord of Skulls. A model that would have looked infinitly better with legs instead of treads. And the Kytan Ravager proves that.
I totally forgot about that one, and I would now like to change my vote. Let's not forget about the 4 giant tanks on its butt that are full of blood for its "blood cannon" that shoots boiling blood on you. Literally when I search for an image of the model 1/4 of the results are conversions by people trying to give it legs.
shortymcnostrill wrote: Except they stuck two tiny chicken legs to the back, making it no longer a metal flying torso but a weirdly shaped full-size dragon with babylegs. These hind legs transform its exhaust into a giant flaming sphincter, making it impossible to take seriously.
So, shorty, question - how would you have included some form of landing gear in the design, if not clawed legs?
I'm no model designer, I'm not sure. Does it even need visible landing gear?
In fact, that's probably my answer. I wouldn't have included landing gear at all. I'd focus on the concept and leave the "realistic" details off. It is a demon engine after all, gritty realism is for the factions that don't run on warp magic.
To be fair its hind legs never registered as landing gear for me either, they're far too weedy. I was already operating under the assumption the model has no visible landing gear.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.
Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.
Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"
Spoiler:
They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top. Like, the helmet looks to be around the same height as their entire leg.
Lumineth are weird because the core range - spears/archers/silver helms are 10/10, some of the best models I think GW has ever made.
But everything else in the faction has this horrible uncanny valley effect to me. The cow-hatted crocket mallet wielding guys were the first bizarre aesthetic choice, but its true of everything else. (I guess the Kangaroo archers aren't so bad as models, but "why?")
On classic 3rd edition Dark Eldar... I'd agree the Warriors weren't great sculpts. Mainly the giant helmets as people say. But I'm not sure about the rest of the range. I thought it was pretty good in 1998.
Maybe its subjective - but I prefer this guy to the current Archon.
Spoiler:
But the one in the middle was probably the best.
I guess I don't really mind Primaris because they are just marines+1. Bigger, more bling, more whatever. So I guess I can understand not liking the Storm Speeder - but in some respects I just think its a Land Speeder with updated Marine aesthetics (i.e. "its a brick that can fly"). If you want curves, that's what glorious superior Eldar are for.
One day GW will presumably re-do the Vyper, and its almost certainly going to be bigger and better. Or maybe like Ork Buggies Eldar will rather randomly get 5 equivalent models.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.
Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"
Spoiler:
They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top.
And then the fact that they're using hammers, which is like the LEAST elven weapon ever.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.
Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"
Spoiler:
They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top.
And then the fact that they're using hammers, which is like the LEAST elven weapon ever.
Can't help but laugh as when cow-elves were first previewed, I was lambasted for saying exactly this.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.
Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"
Spoiler:
They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top.
And then the fact that they're using hammers, which is like the LEAST elven weapon ever.
Can't help but laugh as when cow-elves were first previewed, I was lambasted for saying exactly this.
I remember the reveal too. I think an elf hammer could maybe work, theoretically, but the hammers would need to not be giant fething mallets.
But really, in warhammer, hammers are a Dwarf weapon (and by cultural osmosis, a sigmarite weapon).
Gah, sorry about the delay in my post but the crab mallet weilding bull hatted Elves broke my brain, no wonder they were so back so far in the Necronomicon, under the chapter heading: things-that-you-should-not-see.
Tyel wrote: Lumineth are weird because the core range - spears/archers/silver helms are 10/10, some of the best models I think GW has ever made.
But everything else in the faction has this horrible uncanny valley effect to me. The cow-hatted crocket mallet wielding guys were the first bizarre aesthetic choice, but its true of everything else. (I guess the Kangaroo archers aren't so bad as models, but "why?")
Most of the AoS ranges are like that for me: a few models I like, and then a cascade of baffling design choices. Bonelords are especially egregious in that regard.
Primaris Marines are guilty of this too -- the various "basic" armor types look good to great, but the support and elite infantry (and most of the vehicles) are either visually indistinct, goofy looking, or both.
This isn't helped by GW's "Adjective Nounverbs" naming convention, which makes every unit sound the same while being utterly unmemorable. It all decays into a indeteriminate visual and lexographical mush. (One beneficial side effect of this is that the truly excellent ranges, like Cities of Sigmar, stand out even more.)
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.
Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"
Spoiler:
They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top.
And then the fact that they're using hammers, which is like the LEAST elven weapon ever.
The problem is we've had decades of Hollywood selling us that swords are the most graceful and ultimate weapon of war.
Meanwhile warhammers are huge oversized lumbering slow weapons held, typically, by either the bad guy who will lose to the hero with a sword; or by the big lumbering giant on the good side who will be slow but smash everything with super-powers.
The idea of warhammers being actual effective weapons in battle and popular ones is - heavily undersupported.
Overread wrote: The problem is we've had decades of Hollywood selling us that swords are the most graceful and ultimate weapon of war.
Meanwhile warhammers are huge oversized lumbering slow weapons held, typically, by either the bad guy who will lose to the hero with a sword; or by the big lumbering giant on the good side who will be slow but smash everything with super-powers.
The idea of warhammers being actual effective weapons in battle and popular ones is - heavily undersupported.
Oh true, but real battles also didn't have dragons and titans nor elves with greater strength and endurance than the average human.
Once you start having heavy beasts and units on the battlefield (heck Warhammer has steamtanks) then something bigger than a pick starts to become a rather attractive choice. Esp if you've the strength to back it up.
I think the sword ones - Bladelords? - look even worse...
I guess to pick something new, and non-SM, I'd possibly go for Neurogaunts. Not sure how Tyranid players are finding them, but they just seem redundant to me. I mean reducing battleshock (maybe) etc is nice, but.... meh? The game is still such that units tend towards either being alive or dead. I guess they are very cheap wounds if you are going down that line. Its probably worth chucking one unit in.
But the models just feel kind of... idk, plasticky? Like the intern had a go at making new Hormagaunts/Termagants but messed it up.
I used to heavily dislike the Repulsor tanks, but a lot of that is how much GW likes to take pictures of them low to emphasize the grav plates. Once a local started running them regularly I found I quite like them on the table. I still think they lack some of what makes the Rhino and in particular the Land Raider so iconic, but I've ended up preferring them to the Predator.
I have zero hate for the Storm Speeder over its prior counterpart, but I do think the gunner is a step too far and would have looked better without him.
Overread wrote: Oh true, but real battles also didn't have dragons and titans nor elves with greater strength and endurance than the average human.
Once you start having heavy beasts and units on the battlefield (heck Warhammer has steamtanks) then something bigger than a pick starts to become a rather attractive choice. Esp if you've the strength to back it up.
Except that physics is still a thing. Wielding that much weight at the end of a pole is simply not practical. Even if they were theoretically strong enough, they still wouldn't be heavy enough. Remember - you don't just need strength to control a heavy object, you also need to have enough weight that you're not thrown off balance when you swing it.
And before any one chips in to say that those hammers are actually made of Mithril or something and are actually super light, please bear in mind that making them out of a lightweight material would undermines the entire point of using hammers in the first place. The weight is what gives a hammer the force to penetrate or deform armour and cause significant damage to the person inside it. So they would be far better off using sensibly-sized hammers made out of ordinary steel than spending 10,000gp of Mithril on what amounts to little more than one of the inflatable hammers you can win at a fairground.
Tyel wrote: I think the sword ones - Bladelords? - look even worse...
I guess to pick something new, and non-SM, I'd possibly go for Neurogaunts. Not sure how Tyranid players are finding them, but they just seem redundant to me. I mean reducing battleshock (maybe) etc is nice, but.... meh? The game is still such that units tend towards either being alive or dead. I guess they are very cheap wounds if you are going down that line. Its probably worth chucking one unit in.
But the models just feel kind of... idk, plasticky? Like the intern had a go at making new Hormagaunts/Termagants but messed it up.
Personally I love them. They are tiny and cute, one doesn't realize how small they are until they are next to a termagant or hormagaunt.
And lore wise a horde of cheap chaff extending synapse is cool, as it makes a much sturdier synapse web.
The one I'm struggling to find a justification for is the Screamer-killer, because bigger melee Carnifex is something Haruspexes do better.
Yeah Nerogaunts are cool! Personally I see them as a means to help swarm armies keep that swarmy feel by letting you spread out synapse over the army in a greater amount without having to reach for a "big synapse bug".
I do think that conceptually they suffered from a change of focus during the rules development. Much like how the little aids with the Nurothrope wound up "doing nothing" it seems that the leader beast for the neurogaunts wound up "doing nothing" special though I'm sure conceptually they were.
Screamerkiller/Carnifex is 100% right. The Fex has felt stuck for a while because all the specialist roles it used to be king at got replaced. It's gone from the toolbox powerhouse of the army to the middleweight and its kind of a little lost. It's not cheap/light enough to be a quick addition but its not quite heavy hitting enough to be a heavy weight.
You can even feel this a bit with the Swarmlord getting one-upped by the Norns.
Overread wrote: The problem is we've had decades of Hollywood selling us that swords are the most graceful and ultimate weapon of war.
That's more a matter of most advanced warrior cultures spending the last 2000 years elevating the sword as the weapon the nobility and the warrior elite. (The bow being the second-most popular weapon to idolize.) Even though the sword wasn't the primary weapon of the European man-at-arms or the Japanese samurai it was the weapon that set him apart from the rabble and made him a warrior and not just a soldier. This is probably because swords are really cool -- Hollywood got that right!
The primaris devastators. There's like, three different 10 man squads to replace Devastators, each with their own weapon type. The Beauty of the Devvies, was that you could take them as close-range powerhouses (meltas), sharpshooter tank-hunters (lascannons) or more mid-board general threats (Missiles, Gravs, Plasma). But you also could only take 4 heavy weapons, meaning you could take 5 cannon fodder marines that would serve to protect the Devs, and also have shooting bonuses. Making that into a ten man heavy squad kind of neuters the nuance, and even lore wise makes it seem like they have an infinite supply of weapons, (a full plasma squad, for example is a bit unbelievable to me, because of how hazardous Plasma weapons on the infantry scale are). Not to mention, aside from the bloated codex, they just look a bit silly. Devvies had heavier leg plating, and held their heavy weapons as if they were, actual heavy duty equipment. A lot of the Primaris Devastators (hellblasters, desolators etc) don't really have the heavier look to them, or go way overboard like aggressors. They kind of hold their guns like foam props, like I get they are 10 foot tall superhumans, but heavy weapons designed for them are still heavy, there's no way around it.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Here's something I've always wondered, why does a tiny bolt pistol for a IG Sergeant have the same stats as a Bolt Pistol for a SM Sergeant?
Because historically all bolters are the same weapons (and the 'tiny' bolt pistol that the guard has is the same design as the normal marine/sisters pistol). It's only with the scale creep power fantasy that GW keeps pushing with marines that the idea that a marine's bolter is different has appeared.
Sisters bolters, guard bolters and marine bolters should all be the same weapon. Marine players like being special though, and can't stand the idea that their guns arent the bestest so this idea that 'astartes bolters' are a thing has appeared which is just dumb. Doesn't help that meme culture has been riding the 'bolt shells are red bull cans' line, despite the largest calibre they've ever been described as using is .998 (which is basically 1 inch, or 25mm).
LunarSol wrote: I used to heavily dislike the Repulsor tanks, but a lot of that is how much GW likes to take pictures of them low to emphasize the grav plates. Once a local started running them regularly I found I quite like them on the table. I still think they lack some of what makes the Rhino and in particular the Land Raider so iconic, but I've ended up preferring them to the Predator.
I have zero hate for the Storm Speeder over its prior counterpart, but I do think the gunner is a step too far and would have looked better without him.
My dislike for the space marine repulsor tanks comes from how they muddied the generally defined character of vehicles between factions.
You had each faction effectively occupying their own fuzzy spaces in a 2D plot of protection (typically Armour facing values) vs mobility. IG had maxed protection with limited mobility with vehicles like the Russ variants and few skimmers, then space marines with on average less protection (Land Raider is the exception) but more mobility with fast skimmers, then Tau who were space marine-esque protection but on skimmers and with the ability to fire on the move better, then you had orks with low armour high speed buggies and trukks along with their slower armoured wagons, then you had Eldar with fast skimmers with still okay armour and shield tech, then Dark Eldar who were maxed out speed, minimum armour. Never played enough Necrons to get a feeling of where they really sat.
By giving Space Marines full hovertanks, rather than just the light skimmers they previously had, they stepped into the design space occupied by the Tau.
LunarSol wrote: I used to heavily dislike the Repulsor tanks, but a lot of that is how much GW likes to take pictures of them low to emphasize the grav plates. Once a local started running them regularly I found I quite like them on the table. I still think they lack some of what makes the Rhino and in particular the Land Raider so iconic, but I've ended up preferring them to the Predator.
I have zero hate for the Storm Speeder over its prior counterpart, but I do think the gunner is a step too far and would have looked better without him.
My dislike for the space marine repulsor tanks comes from how they muddied the generally defined character of vehicles between factions.
You had each faction effectively occupying their own fuzzy spaces in a 2D plot of protection (typically Armour facing values) vs mobility. IG had maxed protection with limited mobility with vehicles like the Russ variants and few skimmers, then space marines with on average less protection (Land Raider is the exception) but more mobility with fast skimmers, then Tau who were space marine-esque protection but on skimmers and with the ability to fire on the move better, then you had orks with low armour high speed buggies and trukks along with their slower armoured wagons, then you had Eldar with fast skimmers with still okay armour and shield tech, then Dark Eldar who were maxed out speed, minimum armour. Never played enough Necrons to get a feeling of where they really sat.
By giving Space Marines full hovertanks, rather than just the light skimmers they previously had, they stepped into the design space occupied by the Tau.
For the last 20 years GW has made a concerted effort to mine their xeno armies for ideas and themes to put in marines to sell more of them.
Before white scars, if you wanted to play a fast bike army you played ork speed freeks or saim han eldar. Before marine hover tanks, you had to play eldar or tau to use them. If you wanted specialised single use elite units you played eldar aspect units, now you can just buy primaris units designed the same way.
Basically, GW only wants to maximise its profits so rather than investing in making their other armies more attractive, they've just been stripping their unique features and making a marine army that does the same thing so you don't have to ever not play marines.
If they could figure out how to make ork hordes in power armour, we'd be seeing a new marine chapter called the Space Horde that fights just like orks, but are still space marines...
bullisariuscowl wrote: The primaris devastators. There's like, three different 10 man squads to replace Devastators, each with their own weapon type. The Beauty of the Devvies, was that you could take them as close-range powerhouses (meltas), sharpshooter tank-hunters (lascannons) or more mid-board general threats (Missiles, Gravs, Plasma). But you also could only take 4 heavy weapons, meaning you could take 5 cannon fodder marines that would serve to protect the Devs, and also have shooting bonuses. Making that into a ten man heavy squad kind of neuters the nuance, and even lore wise makes it seem like they have an infinite supply of weapons, (a full plasma squad, for example is a bit unbelievable to me, because of how hazardous Plasma weapons on the infantry scale are). Not to mention, aside from the bloated codex, they just look a bit silly. Devvies had heavier leg plating, and held their heavy weapons as if they were, actual heavy duty equipment. A lot of the Primaris Devastators (hellblasters, desolators etc) don't really have the heavier look to them, or go way overboard like aggressors. They kind of hold their guns like foam props, like I get they are 10 foot tall superhumans, but heavy weapons designed for them are still heavy, there's no way around it.
Not to mention the Devastators flexibility of being able to Combat Squad your 10-man unit into different configurations if you want. Concentrate your Heavies into one group while your bolter boys become objective grabbers. Split Heavies evenly to cover different areas of the table. Or just keep them together for max bodyguard and Strat usage.
The Primaris heavy weapons example is prime territory for GW just being greedy. It means they can swap stats around a bit, changing the meta, and you're encouraged to buy entire new units to keep up, rather than just weapon swap a few guys or *gasp* just stick the other heavy weapons in the box onto very compatible extra Tactical guys you might have around.
You could build a solid army with just Devastator and Tactical boxes. You got all the parts in there to make a Captain, Lt, Command Squad, Sternguard, Tactical Squads and Devastators.
For the last 20 years GW has made a concerted effort to mine their xeno armies for ideas and themes to put in marines to sell more of them.
Before white scars, if you wanted to play a fast bike army you played ork speed freeks or saim han eldar. Before marine hover tanks, you had to play eldar or tau to use them. If you wanted specialised single use elite units you played eldar aspect units, now you can just buy primaris units designed the same way.
Basically, GW only wants to maximise its profits so rather than investing in making their other armies more attractive, they've just been stripping their unique features and making a marine army that does the same thing so you don't have to ever not play marines.
If they could figure out how to make ork hordes in power armour, we'd be seeing a new marine chapter called the Space Horde that fights just like orks, but are still space marines...
Thunderwolf Cavalry popping up after the sunsetting of Ork Boarboyz was pretty irritating.
But it's not just Xenos, but other Imperial factions. They got a "Knight" in the form of the Leviathan Dreadnought. They got a Living Saint in the form of The Sanguinor.
While we're talking about rules being pinched, can I just bring up the fact that DE vehicles used to be virtually the only ones that could move and fire all weapons at full effectiveness. Now every vehicle can do that.
But at least you can still disembark and assault from DE vehicles after they've moved. I mean, it's been a core part of the design since their inception in 3rd, with their crew often hanging off the sides so they can jump right into combat. GW wouldn't just take that away too, right?
Oh.
So having lost both of those aspects, I guess Dark Eldar vehicles are now set apart from the vehicles of other factions by... being spiky?
vipoid wrote: While we're talking about rules being pinched, can I just bring up the fact that DE vehicles used to be virtually the only ones that could move and fire all weapons at full effectiveness. Now every vehicle can do that.
But at least you can still disembark and assault from DE vehicles after they've moved. I mean, it's been a core part of the design since their inception in 3rd, with their crew often hanging off the sides so they can jump right into combat. GW wouldn't just take that away too, right?
Oh.
So having lost both of those aspects, I guess Dark Eldar vehicles are now set apart from the vehicles of other factions by... being spiky?
deep strike on vehicles is still pretty exciting. space marines don't get that pushes drop pods and storm speeders out of frame
If they could figure out how to make ork hordes in power armour, we'd be seeing a new marine chapter called the Space Horde that fights just like orks, but are still space marines...
deep strike on vehicles is still pretty exciting. space marines don't get that pushes drop pods and storm speeders out of frame
The Storm Speeder I don't much care about, but Drop Pods are a core piece of the Space Marine concept, and were part of their identity since the first version of Epic game at least, sometime during Rogue Trader itself. Starship Troopers being the obvious inspiration.
And before any one chips in to say that those hammers are actually made of Mithril or something and are actually super light, please bear in mind that making them out of a lightweight material would undermines the entire point of using hammers in the first place. The weight is what gives a hammer the force to penetrate or deform armour and cause significant damage to the person inside it. So they would be far better off using sensibly-sized hammers made out of ordinary steel than spending 10,000gp of Mithril on what amounts to little more than one of the inflatable hammers you can win at a fairground.
/Rant
It is also impractical to use a flat hammer over a rounded or pointed one, so there is no reason to walk around with such mallets other than ehm.. looking exotic I guess. If its all you got, sure, use what you have (peasant militias did that all the time), but in actual battle using flat hammers would make no sense.
Let's make a new faction which is built entirely upon consisting solely of superheavies (one unit with different weapons)
Oh bugger, turns out the core rules can't cope with entire armies of superheavies. Who could have forseen this?
Well let's add in (a) smaller unit(s).
Then let's increasingly pivot the entire faction to actually focus on the smaller unit.
You know they're going to end up adding Men-at-arms to Imperial Knights eventually...
^Yeah, so when did the open topped charge rule dissapear?
That's definitely another selling point of those early editions again. Orks and DE had the fairly unique ability of long-reach charges from vehicles, and the vehicles were cheap and therefore could be numerous. Marines *could* do it, but only with their most expensive vehicle, so it became a huge target.
What do you think of units that work against the common Lore of 40k?
My friends and I were discussing the Ole Tyranid planet eating bits and how all the tyranids end up being tasty slurry at the end of a conquest to be sucked through the magic straws into the gullets of mama Tyranids in space.
When it struck one us... how do tyranids have named special characters? If the tyranids win those special folks end up as chunky milk shakes like everyone else.
If they were so wonderful, Mama overmind would make entire groups of them.
The only true individual in the lore is the Swarmlord; otherwise all others are named but are more rare breeds.
The main theory is that whilst Tyranids control their DNA and creation there are
1) Clear examples of them relying on evolution of specific unique traits. Their DNA creation appears imperfect which they rely on as it allows them to hyper evolve to specific situations; but also means every so often they get something unique that's very hard to replicate.
2) Unique individuals are more very rare strains that are used for specific purposes but not generally put into breeding. This might represent them being harder to create; relying on specific resources/materials and the like. So "Old One Eye" might be the name in the book for what was once a unique sighting; but its a kind of Carnifex with regeneration that can appear elsewhere.
3) Remembering that the names are a human attribution. What might be a named individual one year could be the start of a new main-line strain that appears en-mass in the future.
Part of it is the alien nature of Tyranids and the fact that the specific mechanics of them are unknown. Everything is humans (for the most part) trying to interpret and understand them.
I wouldn't call the Swarmlord a true individual, considering it is a lore point in Warzone Octarius that the Hive Mind spams Swarmlords all over the galaxy at the same time.
It is only "special" in a relatively small warzone scope, not so when you zoom out to the galactic scope.
I thought it was lore that certain higher level individuals in the Hive mind are in fact placed in a cocoon like stasis until the next invasion. While yes, your rippers and gaunts and such get re-absorbed, we know in the novels hive tyrants, Old One Eye, and likely other big level brainy bugs like the zooanthropes use too precious of DNA to just waste them in the digestive vats. By the end of the invasion, genestealers are mostly gone having hitched rides on escaping ships to try and start the process over again, to the point it almost doesnt make sense for GSs to even be in the regular nid army codex except in the early stages of the invasion to run distraction and ambush to make the invasion easier for the hive fleet.
in my mind, tyranid special characters work akin to legendary pokemon; that is, they're very rare, but not always actually unique. there are multiple Swarmlords and Red Terrors and Old One Eyes, but the average guardsman, or even space marine, is unlikely to ever personally encounter more than one in their lifetime. for all we know, there's one incredibly unpleasant planet somewhere in the galaxy where Deathleapers are as common as normal lictors, but that commonality won't spread beyond there
the real difficulty is with GSC named characters. GSC are inherently limited to human lifespans, and most will never leave their home planet (there is a thing in Day of Ascension that allows a little wiggle room, but it's still not much); the patriarch, the army's sole unique unit, is very much unique within a cult, but plentiful on a galactic scale
Genestealer Cults might only allow the Patriarch to survive if the Tyranids come and eat the world; but there's many situations where Cults will grow and grow and attack other worlds and expand without a Swarm coming to feast.
It's a win for the Tyranids because the more a Cult grows in power the more it weakens the host-race they are invading. So you can easily have generations of Cultists building an ever growing civilization of their own.
Plus even if a Swarm is coming; some will abandon the world just before the swarm hits (or when it hits); thus allowing the Cult to spread
To be fair that's how they used to be for quite some time. Named heroes were even "with opponents permission" only and could be broken in terms of power.
Of course the more heroes you create the more people want to use those in games and from GW's point of view selling models its a LOT easier to sell a hero model if people can use it rather than just have it collecting dust on a shelf.
One of the older stories I liked was one where Nids were invading a world and this administratum guy and a henchman were trying to escape this town right after a convoy of bane blades rolls out and gets mauled by Carnifexes, one of which literally flips a baneblade over on its back like a turtle and this net like thing falls on the running humans. They wake up inside one of the hive ships and a warrior is grabbing random people out of the pin and a hive tyrant is doing some sorts of experiments on them on a table. The guy and his henchman get grabbed next and then space marines blast their way inside, kill the warriors, and fight their way into the center of the ship leave a bomb and then retreat to their breaching pod and the two humans follow and one marine at the last minute holds the hatch open to let them in. The Marines cant destroy the fleet and save the world but are doing what they can to hurt it, one hive ship at a time so maybe the next world wont have it so hard. Some story from the 90s. The point though,is that only the lower level bugs are absorbed, the higher functioning ones are maintained for both their complexity and experience.
Lathe Biosas wrote: What do you think of units that work against the common Lore of 40k?
My friends and I were discussing the Ole Tyranid planet eating bits and how all the tyranids end up being tasty slurry at the end of a conquest to be sucked through the magic straws into the gullets of mama Tyranids in space.
When it struck one us... how do tyranids have named special characters? If the tyranids win those special folks end up as chunky milk shakes like everyone else.
If they were so wonderful, Mama overmind would make entire groups of them.
Does this make sense to anyone else?
Same way Wraithlord characters can exist. Disembodied 'souls'.
Stasis cocoons for those long intersystem journeys. Besides, Necrons have the same issue, someone has to take care of the ships during transit and wake up(and also necessitates) a guard force in case of boarding parties of marines trying to blow them up. As for the genestealers, the true form genestealers probably almost to a bug, when its a civilization that actually has spaceflight, they probably hit the road as soon as momma hive mind sends happy thoughts that the hive fleet is on the way and they kick in the day of revelation or whatever they call it. Then they infiltrate the space port and evacuate with the refugees to wherever planets they are going to set up more homing beacons for the hive fleet. They are smart enough to not need to do the whole go into stasis in random directions and hope for the best when they can just escape with the biomass to more biomass. As for the rest of the GSC, they are toast unless there is a means to spread the cult beyond the planet.
And before any one chips in to say that those hammers are actually made of Mithril or something and are actually super light, please bear in mind that making them out of a lightweight material would undermines the entire point of using hammers in the first place. The weight is what gives a hammer the force to penetrate or deform armour and cause significant damage to the person inside it. So they would be far better off using sensibly-sized hammers made out of ordinary steel than spending 10,000gp of Mithril on what amounts to little more than one of the inflatable hammers you can win at a fairground.
/Rant
It is also impractical to use a flat hammer over a rounded or pointed one, so there is no reason to walk around with such mallets other than ehm.. looking exotic I guess. If its all you got, sure, use what you have (peasant militias did that all the time), but in actual battle using flat hammers would make no sense.
this argument isn't unique to that elf faction though. GW and virtually all fantasy IPs are obsessed with cartoony comically oversized warhammers (and weapons in general but it's more obvious on the warhammers) that would not be liftable, let alone swingable.
Warhammers are deliberately designed to be smaller than construction hammers, because they need to be used to fight with, not apply a single swing's force to one stationary area.
So if you're giving literally every oversized warhammer in all GW media a pass except the elf one, then it's knife ear bigotry my friend.... :p
And before any one chips in to say that those hammers are actually made of Mithril or something and are actually super light, please bear in mind that making them out of a lightweight material would undermines the entire point of using hammers in the first place. The weight is what gives a hammer the force to penetrate or deform armour and cause significant damage to the person inside it. So they would be far better off using sensibly-sized hammers made out of ordinary steel than spending 10,000gp of Mithril on what amounts to little more than one of the inflatable hammers you can win at a fairground.
/Rant
It is also impractical to use a flat hammer over a rounded or pointed one, so there is no reason to walk around with such mallets other than ehm.. looking exotic I guess. If its all you got, sure, use what you have (peasant militias did that all the time), but in actual battle using flat hammers would make no sense.
this argument isn't unique to that elf faction though. GW and virtually all fantasy IPs are obsessed with cartoony comically oversized warhammers (and weapons in general but it's more obvious on the warhammers) that would not be liftable, let alone swingable.
Warhammers are deliberately designed to be smaller than construction hammers, because they need to be used to fight with, not apply a single swing's force to one stationary area.
So if you're giving literally every oversized warhammer in all GW media a pass except the elf one, then it's knife ear bigotry my friend.... :p
Oh, don't get me wrong - I think oversized hammers are universally stupid.
It's just more noticeable when said hammers are being wielded by skinny elves, as opposed to, say, 2-ton Terminators wielding Thunderhammers.
Magic covers a multitude of sins. AoS has even less grounding than WFB, everyone lives in a plane of pure magic. real world physics is a vague suggestion...
I'll add the old school Ork Shokk Attack Gun. It's a slightly controversial choice as it fit very much into the Ork ideology of the time and could be devastating IF it worked. The problem was that the chances of it working was so slight that I never actually saw it used in a game. I never fielded one when they were a thing just because they had such a low chance of success. I say that as an Ork player that feasted on every army of the time except genestealer heavy Tyranid forces. It was a good idea and could produce funny results, but I think it was just too meta and no where near practical.
When I had a 2e Ork army, I used the shokk attack gun every game. It was amazingly effective. I dont remember all the details, but I know 2 out of the 6 results on the dreadnought chart took the dread out of action and two others did something else to it.
1) My personal pick has to be Necron Destroyers/Tomb Blades. When originally released, Destroyers were essentially Jetbikes, but they reanimated back into Warriors (if in range) which helped define their battlefield role. I had zero issue with them moving to true 'Necron' models until they released Tomb Blades. We removed a bike unit to introduce... a bike unit. With no need to address physics like Inertial or G Forces, and no need for a sealed cockpit environment, they were treated like a small fighter-style attack craft. This would've been great if they would've gained the ability to address flyers when that mechanic was introduced.
2) The Wraithknight. I was fine with the Wraithknight as a concept, but getting a lower ranked name than the much smaller Wraithlords?
3) Imperial/Chaos Knights. Great for the Narrative games, should never have been allowed in Tournament 40k. No big deal since that's gone too.
Mention: Doomrider. Yeah, that just didn't work out.
Probably a tie between the Primaris Reavers and Primaris Bunker. Units that no one asked for, no one wants, that have no reason to be bought, used etc.
Karol wrote: Probably a tie between the Primaris Reavers and Primaris Bunker. Units that no one asked for, no one wants, that have no reason to be bought, used etc.
Concerning the Reavers....
That's not true at all!
I quite intentionally picked up a 10x used & really poorly painted squad the othrr week for cheap (about 1/2retail)
I did so because I needed the bitz from about 1/2 of them for a project. And the unused minis I tossed into my KT box.
Now why thier original owner wanted them is anyone's guess.
Karol wrote: Probably a tie between the Primaris Reavers and Primaris Bunker. Units that no one asked for, no one wants, that have no reason to be bought, used etc.
Now, now; there's absolutely nothing silly about the concept of a fortification being deployed from orbit without any sort of shielding for it's exposed heavy flamers, and significantly less aerodynamism than a houseboat.
Oh if we’re talking wholly bonkers, impractical and possibly suicidal to use?
Have….have you met the Skaven before?
Exploding telephones! Weapons Teams which depending on your luck are probably more of a threat to you than your opponent! Giant turbo hamster wheels which spit of lightning to land where it may, but typically within your own units! ‘Orrid death gas which is really good at killing your own troops!
And whilst contentious, I for one love the End Times books (still have my complete, original, hardback set), where Skaven end up accidentally prank calling a Craftworld.
Skaven. The only race where life is cheaper than in The Imperium.
Hellebore wrote: So if you're giving literally every oversized warhammer in all GW media a pass except the elf one, then it's knife ear bigotry my friend.... :p
Pointy-eared gits are over-represented in pretty much every game, especially compared the gloriously-bearded shorter folk.
No, him being on that list is not a bad thing. He's the good kind of 'turn your brain off' lore, and he's an interesting character, despite how little he's shown in official publications.
Col. Dash wrote: When I had a 2e Ork army, I used the shokk attack gun every game. It was amazingly effective. I dont remember all the details, but I know 2 out of the 6 results on the dreadnought chart took the dread out of action and two others did something else to it.
Likewise, my SAG was a standard fixture of my 2nd ed Ork army, and it more than paid for itself.
Karol wrote: Probably a tie between the Primaris Reavers and Primaris Bunker. Units that no one asked for, no one wants, that have no reason to be bought, used etc.
I have never seen anyone buy fortification in my life
The aforementioned Space Marine Starcraft Bunker and probably the Orks' Big 'Ead Bossbunka are a couple of the dumbest units in 40k, particularly the Ork one. Also Primaris Suppressors. People complain about the T-shirt launcher guys, but not the flying "totally not compensating for something" cannon-toting dudes?
Karol wrote: Probably a tie between the Primaris Reavers and Primaris Bunker. Units that no one asked for, no one wants, that have no reason to be bought, used etc.
I have never seen anyone buy fortification in my life
There are a bunch of Knight players who own fortifications because they filled In points on their list....
Whilst the model is at worst middling? The Big ‘Ead Bossbunka is a work of pure background win.
Gargants of any stripe are universally considered as manifestations of Gork and Mork.
It makes Orky sense for a Warlord, rising, established or dominant, to adopt any wreckage as their forward HQ, regardless of consequence, on account Orks don’t really care about consequence.
Where Gork and/or Mork failed? I is so Orky, I’ll occupy their bonce and get the ladz to push ever further.
Because Gork/Mork ain’t got perished. Only delayed. And because my great idea was to occupy and push forward, which lead to loads and loads of really good fights, I must be great.
As someone who has spent many a happy hour playing Dawn of War and Dawn of War II, I can't hate on the Hammerfall Bunker - I even own one, though I've yet to build it.
I tend to take a view that the side guns are retracted inside the bunker during descent, and emerge from firing ports once it has landed.
Karol wrote: Probably a tie between the Primaris Reavers and Primaris Bunker. Units that no one asked for, no one wants, that have no reason to be bought, used etc.
I have never seen anyone buy fortification in my life
There are a bunch of Knight players who own fortifications because they filled In points on their list....
...or so they tell me.
Not relevant to the hammerfall bunker, but historically a lot of fortifications hit the table in 6th, due to them being the only AA fire some people had access to for a long time
1. I was referring to the 80 pt. Sacristan Forgeshrine that existed up until the 10th index. Which knight players enjoyed an 80 point giant piece of terrain to hide behind. Because it was pretty useless... unless you brought your Tech priest from another army with you.
2. I now understand that "Mad Doc" auto wins the "True Scotsman" game.
I was taught by a fellow from Glasgow, the easiest way to figure our where you are in Europe: Walk into any pub, and say, "I love your pretty French accents." If you're still alive, you're in France.
Marine bikes - they don't look like they could steer given the truck wheels, and it'll be virtually impossible to aim. They also don't fit in with the 40K scale (Epic is fine) because for them to actually make sense as bikes they'd have a movement of more than a board length. They make sense in the Mad Max ripoff game but that's about it.
Lets take a nimble piece of mobile infantry, turn it into a tank and then drive it at walking pace. That'll show someone, somehow!
Whilst ranting about marines - why are all the vehicles staffed by actual power armoured marines? It makes them look even stupider, like an adult on a kids fairground ride and it's not as if they routinely disembark. Surely they'd use servitors/acolytes/humans or at a push injured marines.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Uhhh it seems that it would be odd for units not to have large hammers in a game called Warhammer.
It'd be nice if there were any actual war hammers (some Empire/Bretonian knights had them about 30 years ago?) and not mauls, though.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Since it's now all of Warhammer, I'm gonna toss in the stupid Cow-Hat High Elves from Age of Sigmar. There is no amount of elven grace that make those things work me. EVER.
Cow Hat? I'm not familiar with this... but I'm intrigued (and dumb) enough to open the Necronomicon, and ask "what do they look like?"
Spoiler:
They start with your basic tall elven helm, then add even more height, and then massive horns sticking out the side at the top. Like, the helmet looks to be around the same height as their entire leg.
How do those helmets stay on if they move? Even without swinging those things round. They must have epic neck muscles.
Wait has anyone said the Dark Angels Escalade yet?
Cause we have to say something about the Dark Angels Escalade, something like, where is the turret gunner's legs? Or is he like an amputee turned gun servitor?
An old one, but the squats battle train. That or the Lord of Skulls.
The problem with some 40k units being called dumb is that there's like a point where something becomes so dumb, that it can start to turn hilariously epic.
The issue that 40k will always have is the sci-fi esthetic.
In fantasy games, you can have zany, nutty things that don't make a lick of sense (homing pigeon bombs and giant hamster balls) but you can go with it....
On 40k, you have the sci-fi feel, where you can't help but wonder, is this a possible future, could we have this some day... which leads to...
Why, gods of woe, why, would they build something like this?
Eh... the poster melee weapon is a chainsword, which is extremely stupid for several reasons. Plus you know all the Fantasy stuff in Space stuff: Elves, Orcs, Daemons, Dwarfs.
40k has never tried to be a "possible future".
Edit: and don't get me started on 40k vehicle design, they are all awful from a realistic perspective. Which doesn't mean they are bad, awful but cool makes for fun and iconic designs. Just don't take them as a serious attempt at speculative sci-fi.
I felt that 40k was the same tongue firmly in cheek future in the same mold as 2000ADs Judge Dredd, which was 1980s Americana told only as it could be from the wisened eyes of the Brits.
The issue there is that 40k is using Judge's Dredds aesthetic as inspiration without understanding its themes, which makes a weird case of broken telephone.
Lathe Biosas wrote: The issue that 40k will always have is the sci-fi esthetic.
In fantasy games, you can have zany, nutty things that don't make a lick of sense (homing pigeon bombs and giant hamster balls) but you can go with it....
On 40k, you have the sci-fi feel, where you can't help but wonder, is this a possible future, could we have this some day... which leads to...
Why, gods of woe, why, would they build something like this?
I think that's the real issue here.
Nah, I don't think so. The only faction that has a Sci-Fi-aesthetic are the Tau and that's exactly the reason why a part of the community still dislikes them . Even Necrons today are more tomb kings in space than Terminator.
Heck original Necrons had a LOT of Egyptian iconography going on for them. They were very literally TombKings in Space. Modern Necrons are, design wise, quite a good bit removed from that. It's still here and there in their designs, but its far less overt/bold than it was back with the original designs.
Karol wrote: Probably a tie between the Primaris Reavers and Primaris Bunker. Units that no one asked for, no one wants, that have no reason to be bought, used etc.
Ehh, i'd say the concept of the units is wanted, the issue is GW's inability to give them any sort of decent rules...
Dumbest units for 40k? Mind you, my primary years of 40k were 3rd/4th and most of 5th edition, so I have not much reference for dumb things since then.
For the necrons I think the flayed ones were the dumbest.
For space marines, the centurions
For tau, I always thought the kroot didn't fit in at all, even if the vespids started off weak they at least fit the theme well enough.
Imperial guard, the rough riders, I still think its cool for cavalry to run around with huge bomb tipped lances, but its still dumb, cool and dumb.
For eldar, wraithlords with swords
Grey knights, those knight/mech things.
Orks, the mega armor that came out in 3rd/4th was just so dumb to me, and those power claws. I know they're kinda iconic to orks now but I still don't like it.
Chaos space marines, I liked their old dreadnoughts and I think hellbrutes are a dumb substitute.
Overread wrote: Heck original Necrons had a LOT of Egyptian iconography going on for them. They were very literally TombKings in Space. Modern Necrons are, design wise, quite a good bit removed from that. It's still here and there in their designs, but its far less overt/bold than it was back with the original designs.
Overread wrote: Heck original Necrons had a LOT of Egyptian iconography going on for them. They were very literally TombKings in Space. Modern Necrons are, design wise, quite a good bit removed from that. It's still here and there in their designs, but its far less overt/bold than it was back with the original designs.
Are you kidding? Because to me, Necrons over the last few editions have just become even more Tomb Kings... in... SPAAAAACE!
The dumbest unit is and will always be the 7th edition Super-Heavy walker Guilliman
Because when you used the knights detatchment to turn guilliman into a vehicle without armour characteristics it broke the rules of game ( as in there was no way to resolve how it worked)
Overread wrote: Heck original Necrons had a LOT of Egyptian iconography going on for them. They were very literally TombKings in Space. Modern Necrons are, design wise, quite a good bit removed from that. It's still here and there in their designs, but its far less overt/bold than it was back with the original designs.
Are you kidding? Because to me, Necrons over the last few editions have just become even more Tomb Kings... in... SPAAAAACE!
The 2nd edition article that introduced the Necrons literally included instructions on how to build a pyramid.
The Battlefleet Gothic Necron Super Crescent Death Ship that liked to lightning my ships from the skies (whose name I can't remember) had a giant pyramid as its bridge.
Their design was really good, with the shroud and scythe being the weakest.
They could have removed the tail on the scythe and it would have still looked good, it just looks out of place with that long spindly bit.
The shroud has a generally ok silhouette, but it looks too much like 3 separate ships stuck together.
All in all though, BFG has the best aesthetically coherent range of miniatures GW ever produced, Each fleet is visually unique and really interesting.
My absolute favourite GW game, and Gordon Rennie's two novels Execution Hour and Shadowpoint are my two favourite novels. Not the least of which because Shadowpoint has the best depiction of eldar and the badassery that is the avatar put to print.
I don't know the BFG Tyranids are some of the worst models I think GW ever made. Granted by that point the game was on life support hidden in the depths of Forgeworld mailorder as I recall.
But yeah the majority of BFG ships were utterly awesome, but the Tyranids just missed the mark. The Hive Ship just seemed like a long noodle of rolled up greenstuff with some straight tentacles stuck out the front. The other ships looked ok but they didn't give a sense of vast scale like you get with Imperial, Ork and Eldar ships. Those ships felt like huge interstellar warships; the Tyranids didn't
Overread wrote: I don't know the BFG Tyranids are some of the worst models I think GW ever made. Granted by that point the game was on life support hidden in the depths of Forgeworld mailorder as I recall.
But yeah the majority of BFG ships were utterly awesome, but the Tyranids just missed the mark. The Hive Ship just seemed like a long noodle of rolled up greenstuff with some straight tentacles stuck out the front. The other ships looked ok but they didn't give a sense of vast scale like you get with Imperial, Ork and Eldar ships. Those ships felt like huge interstellar warships; the Tyranids didn't
I am so used to Tyranid fleets being kitbashed from tyranid bits and looking 10 billion times better, that I completely forgot there were real official models. The hive ship just looked like an actual turd...
Lathe Biosas wrote: The issue that 40k will always have is the sci-fi esthetic.
In fantasy games, you can have zany, nutty things that don't make a lick of sense (homing pigeon bombs and giant hamster balls) but you can go with it....
On 40k, you have the sci-fi feel, where you can't help but wonder, is this a possible future, could we have this some day... which leads to...
Why, gods of woe, why, would they build something like this?
I think that's the real issue here.
Nah, I don't think so. The only faction that has a Sci-Fi-aesthetic are the Tau and that's exactly the reason why a part of the community still dislikes them . Even Necrons today are more tomb kings in space than Terminator.
I thought it was more because they felt like such a targeted addition; "how can we expand our market share in Asia? Gundams are popular I guess...".
That reminds me, the stormsurge. Thunder thighs, no arms and an exposed crew for some reason.
Overread wrote: Heck original Necrons had a LOT of Egyptian iconography going on for them. They were very literally TombKings in Space. Modern Necrons are, design wise, quite a good bit removed from that. It's still here and there in their designs, but its far less overt/bold than it was back with the original designs.
Are you kidding? Because to me, Necrons over the last few editions have just become even more Tomb Kings... in... SPAAAAACE!
The 2nd edition article that introduced the Necrons literally included instructions on how to build a pyramid.
Oh, I'm not saying they never had those influences, just that over the years GW has leaned ever more into them.
I thought it was more because they felt like such a targeted addition; "how can we expand our market share in Asia? Gundams are popular I guess..."..
That was only ever an idea bandied about by the internet experts. Tau were never intended to appeal specifically to the Asian market. According to the Devs from the time, they knew full well that they couldn't produce kits as good as Gundam, and the Asian market was more likely to be interested in the parts of the range that are different to what they already have access to, anyway.
I thought it was more because they felt like such a targeted addition; "how can we expand our market share in Asia? Gundams are popular I guess..."..
That was only ever an idea bandied about by the internet experts. Tau were never intended to appeal specifically to the Asian market. According to the Devs from the time, they knew full well that they couldn't produce kits as good as Gundam, and the Asian market was more likely to be interested in the parts of the range that are different to what they already have access to, anyway.
there's also nothing about 40k that wouldn't already be appealing to east asian audiences; Gundam (and mecha at large) is a Japanese thing which has found occasional popularity in other countries, but the real strength of 40k is in its power fantasy, and if there's anything to be learned from the popularity of naroukei, chinese web novels, and manhwa, it's that people everywhere love power fantasies
and this is without getting into the ways that the T'au are actually asian; that is, everyone focuses on the robots as being Japanese, but the actual society of the T'au is far more Indian than anything else. i suspect something like that wouldn't be appealing in India, due to how controversial the caste system actually is (there's also just a lot of orientalism at play in their design, and asian people don't really appreciate racism)
A lot of the whole "Western/eastern audiences won't like X franchise/game/concept" is often just flat out wrong.
It can be based on poor regional translation/adaptation where the original material was messed around and changed; or when the adaptation is given a release slot that doesn't work (eg for Tv putting it on an obscure channel at a very bad timeslot like midnight); etc...
Or its just based on the market not having anything comparable so they make the assumption if that if its not there no one will want/like it
Overread wrote: A lot of the whole "Western/eastern audiences won't like X franchise/game/concept" is often just flat out wrong.
It can be based on poor regional translation/adaptation where the original material was messed around and changed; or when the adaptation is given a release slot that doesn't work (eg for Tv putting it on an obscure channel at a very bad timeslot like midnight); etc...
Or its just based on the market not having anything comparable so they make the assumption if that if its not there no one will want/like it
it could also just be that there's something else which already exists in that space. what i've heard of Japanese TTRPG popularity, for example, is interesting, because of what was made available and in what order, means that D&D is not the dominant force that it is in the anglosphere; i've heard more creators be influenced by Call of Cthulhu or Wizardry than D&D. in this case, if warhammer isn't popular in Japan, it could simply be that any of a number of different modeling games or hobbies fill the space instead
Controversial entry, and perhaps one more disappointment than dumb. But its impact has been arguably dumb?
Chaos Spawn
Now, the kit itself is actually alright overall, especially given its age. But, its existence means fewer people are converting their own gribbly beast of twisted flesh. Which given we now have set dimensions and base size for a Chaos Spawn is really daft to me.
We could, and arguably should, being going bonkers on those creepy little dudes. They’re Chaos Spawn. They can look like anything
Check out the original retail model from 1998. That to me is much more like it!
I think the Storm Surge suffered from an identity crisis. They wanted a knight sized battle mech for the "Gundam" faction but couldnt make it look like a Gundam, and couldnt have smooth lines like the eldar knight. Then they designed it and suddenly went "oh crap we made a Battlemech." Cant have it look like a Battlemech for copyright reasons. Thus we ended up with an open cockpit, walking quasi-artillery piece with no arms, that really makes no sense for the faction that is reknowned for its high mobility suits.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Controversial entry, and perhaps one more disappointment than dumb. But its impact has been arguably dumb?
Chaos Spawn
Spoiler:
Now, the kit itself is actually alright overall, especially given its age. But, its existence means fewer people are converting their own gribbly beast of twisted flesh. Which given we now have set dimensions and base size for a Chaos Spawn is really daft to me.
We could, and arguably should, being going bonkers on those creepy little dudes. They’re Chaos Spawn. They can look like anything
Check out the original retail model from 1998. That to me is much more like it!
the problem with chaos spawn is an inevitable one. as GW moved towards plastic, this was always going to happen as long as spawn got a plastic kit. they could have picked a different design, but they would only be able to have so many bodies in the box, especially since every part needs to be compatible with every other part. bodies that can stand up on their own would have been appreciated ,tho
conversely, i would say that the chaos spawn kit is a fantastically designed kit for including options in a box. modern cost of it aside, it's truly great for kitbashers. if they ever do replace it, it'll be hard to make a kit that rivals it
Oh the kit itself is pretty great (though not a fan of the bodies myself). It’s that it’s seen too few folk convert up or entirely scratch build their own to the same specification.
Then again, I have a permanent bee in my bonnet* about the general degribblification of Chaos, with far too few manky mutations in evidence. Except, perversely, on the Thousand Son Sorcerors who, as the benefit of the Rubric, are meant to be immune to the flesh change.
*I’ve named it Algernon. Hooooooooo momma is it one angry bee!
Overread wrote:I don't know the BFG Tyranids are some of the worst models I think GW ever made. Granted by that point the game was on life support hidden in the depths of Forgeworld mailorder as I recall.
The Tyranid addition to BFG was pretty rushed in general. I remember my dad going to the official GW forums to complain that all the typos in their rules made them unplayable- though we did play a single game with Escort Drones having firepower 6 pyro-acid, which was entertaining for me and less so for him...
But yeah, I think most people just ended up kitbashing their own while disagreeing over which end of the official Cruiser model (itself looking like a kitbash from a Tyranid Warrior) is supposed to be the front.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Controversial entry, and perhaps one more disappointment than dumb. But its impact has been arguably dumb?
Chaos Spawn
I agree- the plastic Spawn always struck me as toy-like, like action figures. I think the studio scheme probably contributes to that look.
The pewter design that predates the plastic Spawn is a little dumpy by modern standards but I think looks a lot more gross and deformed, rather than just spikes everywhere:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Oh the kit itself is pretty great (though not a fan of the bodies myself). It’s that it’s seen too few folk convert up or entirely scratch build their own to the same specification.
Then again, I have a permanent bee in my bonnet* about the general degribblification of Chaos, with far too few manky mutations in evidence. Except, perversely, on the Thousand Son Sorcerors who, as the benefit of the Rubric, are meant to be immune to the flesh change.
*I’ve named it Algernon. Hooooooooo momma is it one angry bee!
It's weird because i personally have never seen anyone run that kit IRL, it's always been a kitbash/scratchbuild/3d print
I saw the most bizarre BFG game once, it was Tau v Tau. But one side had the all metal GW cigar Tau and the other side had beautiful FW Tau, which looked like how everyone imagined the Tau to look in space.
But because the universe is GrimDark, the ugly Tau won.
I think in 3rd/4th ed it was still 120" or 180" or something, too. It was the go-to cannon for the Vehicle Design rules for its range, and the fact that if you made it "Mega" it bevame S10 AP2, which was almost as good as it got in those days.
and this is without getting into the ways that the T'au are actually asian; that is, everyone focuses on the robots as being Japanese, but the actual society of the T'au is far more Indian than anything else. i suspect something like that wouldn't be appealing in India, due to how controversial the caste system actually is (there's also just a lot of orientalism at play in their design, and asian people don't really appreciate racism)
(History Hat) Japan also had a very strong caste system through to the Meji Restoration which retained a lot of cultural power until the end of the war and still has impact today. It was a loose interpretation of China's confusion castes with Samurai replacing scholars at the top, followed by farmers, merchants and then untouchables (leather makers and suchwot). (/History Hat)
The Tau's 5 elements are also taken from Japanese philosophy. Not to mention they literally have katanas.
Of course the blue commie fishmen from space are not a one-to-one Space Japan like Warzone's Mishima (in the future we will all follow 20th century stereotypes of our nations!) but they're a lot of Japanese elements in there and no real Indian ones I can think of.
As for Orientalism and racism, yeah. Yeah. Um once you're into GW games you kind of have to accept some really stereotypical stuff especially for any culture outside of Europe (and the French and British don't make out too well either). It's like Judge Dredd, if it bugs you, there's plenty else out there.
In defense of the Chaos Spawn kit, it's got a TON of great bits for designing Spawn or swapping and adding nasty bits to your other chaos models. Back in 7th and 8th I often ran a few squads of them, and I managed to grab a Tide Of Spawn box off ebay. I combined them with some of the metal Spawn I already had to get variation. The metal Spawn model was nice, but you run a few of those and they get repeat-y real fast. Here's a sample of finished ones:
I also like how fast the plastic ones can look. The metal ones look pretty encubered, but the long legs of the plastics make it look like they could be very hard to get away from.
Those spawn are amazing, really gribbly. I especially like the insectoid one, looks like it came straight out of a horror movie. The newer chaos stuff looks a bit too clean/smoothe for my tastes.
Edit: on second look all of those would work in a horror movie
shortymcnostrill wrote: Those spawn are amazing, really gribbly. I especially like the insectoid one, looks like it came straight out of a horror movie. The newer chaos stuff looks a bit too clean/smoothe for my tastes.
Edit: on second look all of those would work in a horror movie
Thanks!
Re: "cleanliness" of new models, I think I agree, although I would say that GW often paints things in a very clean way most of the time, which doesn't help. And honestly I don't think it helps some of the older models, like previously mentioned Mutilators. For the aesthetic foundation though, I agree. I definitely prefer the "stretched skin" look of the prior Oblitrators in opposition to the new ones. The new ones seem more cartooney to me.
GW aims for what I consider very clean, very easy to emulate paint schemes. Whilst there's a lot of skill that goes into them to look so clean; the underlaying principle is that its something that can be emulated fairly simply.
I think this really shows with things like Nurgle and other bio-monsters where a very different style of paining can really make the model appear very different.
The line between cartoony and gritty real can be just a function of colour and style choices as much as it is is sculpt design
Overread wrote: GW aims for what I consider very clean, very easy to emulate paint schemes. Whilst there's a lot of skill that goes into them to look so clean; the underlaying principle is that its something that can be emulated fairly simply.
I think this really shows with things like Nurgle and other bio-monsters where a very different style of paining can really make the model appear very different.
The line between cartoony and gritty real can be just a function of colour and style choices as much as it is is sculpt design
While I can agree to that, sometimes the model itself really tries to lock you into cartoon-mode. The current Typhus model being a tragic example.
Even before the new reveal the Deredeo dread ranked pretty high on my list of ugly warhammer kits. Certainly the ugliest in 30K and among the dreads about as ugly as a redemptor. I like all other dreads.
Deredeo featured too many oversized guns even before Primaris made that a thing.
A funky rule, where you deployed three models, and moved them as markers only (so your opponent couldn’t target or charge them), and only decided which one was the squad’s true location after.
Which sounds great. Except they couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag, and wore little to no armour.
So they’d play this great guessing game, be revealed, and be horribly murdered to death by anything greater than a slight breeze.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Then again, I have a permanent bee in my bonnet* about the general degribblification of Chaos, with far too few manky mutations in evidence. Except, perversely, on the Thousand Son Sorcerors who, as the benefit of the Rubric, are meant to be immune to the flesh change.
From Lexicanum:
Lexicanum wrote:It was noted by one of Ahriman's cabal, however, that while the Rubric cured the Legion of the Flesh Change, it did not grant immunity to mutation...
A funky rule, where you deployed three models, and moved them as markers only (so your opponent couldn’t target or charge them), and only decided which one was the squad’s true location after.
Which sounds great. Except they couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag, and wore little to no armour.
So they’d play this great guessing game, be revealed, and be horribly murdered to death by anything greater than a slight breeze.
Mandrakes had awesome models in 5th, but were let down in almost every edition by terrible rules.
In 5th, they had a 5++ and enjoyed Move Through Cover and Stealth, as well as Infiltrate. They also had an Assault 2 S4 AP4 gun that could cause pinning. So at a glance, they seemed like a decent advance unit that wanted to stick to cover.
The problem was that they had no grenades - so while they wanted to be in cover, they were hopeless at attacking enemies who were also in cover (as they'd get hit first, without the benefit of their cover save). They also had S4 but no actual melee weapons or other special rules to make use of it. Not only that, but they couldn't fire their guns until they'd killed an enemy to get a Pain Token - so melee was their only option. And the fact that they Infiltrated was actually a huge downside as it meant you couldn't attach a Haemonculus to them to get a Pain Token right away.
7th edition replaced the invulnerable save with Shrouded. So they were even tougher in cover . . . except that they still had no grenades and no melee weapons, and now they had no save whatsoever in melee. Their weapons could at least be fired from the get-go, but they'd traded Pinning for Soul Blaze, probably the least useful rule ever invented. Finally, while they might seem better in cover, this was in an edition rife with Torrent-Flamers, along with a myriad of other cover-ignoring weapons.
In 8th-9th their rules were actually okay. The biggest issue was that they were classed as 'mercenaries', and thus didn't benefit from any auras or detachment rules. Still, at least they didn't feel like a complete waste of points, so that was something. However, even here, they were generally taken only as objective-grabbers. A useful role, to be sure, but they never felt like the assassins they were supposed to be.
Then of course, we had Kheradruakh, the Decapitator, a unit that was widely believed to have the worst rules of any unit in 5th. At a glance, he looked like he might finally live up to the lore - a deadly assassin who could appear out of nowhere, right next to his target.
And then you read his rules a little more closely, and things quickly started to go downhill . . .
- Despite allegedly being a character assassin, his combat ability was mediocre at best. WS6+ was less than that of a standard Archon, and meant he'd be hitting most characters on 4s. His weapon was a Power Weapon, but with only 4 S5 attacks he wasn't particularly threatening. You really had to hope for a 6 to wound, which meant his sword would cause instant death. However, that assumed he got to strike first...
- Like normal Mandrakes in 5th, he had no grenades. So all his would-be target needed to do was stick to cover, and old Khera will find himself standing gormlessly around while his target punches him.
- Defence-wise, he was a Mandrake with 3 wounds. He did at least start with a Pain Token, but with T3 and no EW, all it took was a single S6 hit and he'd go down immediately.
- But worst of all was the fact that he couldn't actually charge on the turn you placed him. So you could place him right next to his target ("preferably with an evil chuckle", to quote the cringeworthy rule), and watch as he proceeds to . . . do absolutely nothing. - You might wonder if you could skip his terrible deployment rule and use him to instead lead a Mandrake squad - giving them the benefit of his Pain Token. Alas, Kheradruakh lacked the Independent Character rule. So he couldn't join other units - Mandrakes or otherwise.
Kheradruakh really was a case study in how not to design a character. Alas, rather than learning such lessons, GW just deleted him from the game.
It's frustrating for me because I think Mandrakes are one of the most interesting units in terms of flavour and aesthetics. Yet they have been perpetually neglected - with rules that are mediocre at best, on top of losing their only character and having basically no interaction with anything else in the army.
Model wise it has to be the Sydonian Skatros. I've seen some gallant efforts to save it with a good paint job but ultimately all in vain.
Rules wise - Scourges. Deep striking jump packing heavy weapon carriers that paid all the points but couldn't shoot on the move, in an army packed with cheap and mobile alternatives carrying the same guns.
In terms of building... i've never seen a metal exorcist kit that wasn't bent out of shape, though the penitent engines were worse if you didn't have a pinning drill with their top heavy design and terrible terrible joints.
vipoid wrote: Then of course, we had Kheradruakh, the Decapitator, a unit that was widely believed to have the worst rules of any unit in 5th.
Decent statline, overshadowed by his own codex and crippled by being moved to the generic reserves rules.
Though not quite as bad as units like the space pope (aka shoot here to rout my army) or old repentia (who could be outfought in combat by their value in tau firewarriors).
Special shout-out to the gathering storm era Saint Celestine (who wasn't faithful and would therefore break the faith of any sisters unit she joined) and to a lesser degree the old Celestine who could de-faith the entire army if killed. Actually happened in a WD battle report.
Cap'n Facebeard wrote: Personally I only like the old box dreads. Even the contemptor just looks out of place to me.
I like them, I just wish they had proper knees. Add knees to classic box dreads and I'm happy.
Is that to say you'd like posable legs, or that the the old Dreadnoughts don't have knee joints? If the former, I imagine if we got a shiny new kit as part of the Horus Heresy line, I imagine it would have articulation just like the other Dreadnought kits. Being as old as it is, the design was limited and a lot of sprue space was wasted. A modern kit should do much better, if the designers were so inclined.
Even so the old knee joint was okay to work with. You could cut into it and reposition it without major resculpting. It's just the cables that connect the leg to the body that were a bit of a pain in that regard.
I don't know if I have a picture anywhere of a converted stock Dreadnought, but here's one of an Ironclad I converted. The required work is the same.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: i always assumed that knight melee weapons were intended for fighting other super-heavies more than infantry
Exactly - in theory Knights and other Titans aren't really bothered with infantry or tanks; they step over them and deal with other knight scaled and titan scaled threats on the opposing side. You don't blunt your chainsword driving it into the ground* going at infantry; you tear into opposing knights or slash at titan legs
*This happens with real world chainsaws. Drive them into the ground and they get really blunt very fast
Lathe Biosas wrote: II keep trying to figure out how IKs fight infantry... you know, without riverdancing on their heads.
This seems akin to asking how a battleship fights infantry.
Realistically (and I know that's a dangerous word for a 40k discussion), infantry should not even be on a Knight's radar. They should be there to take out vehicles and bunkers - not infantry.
The most I could see them carrying would be some large-scale mortars or flamethrowers.
But really, IKs shouldn't be worrying about infantry because they should be supported by standard vehicles and infantry that will deal with enemy infantry.
We’re typically much taller than corn, yeah? But we have these handy things called joints, which allow us to flex and fold and that.
Same with a Knight. Don’t have to be too fancy with your moves, because any infantry hit by your stopping swing probably isn’t gonna be around to tell the tale. Even a relatively glancing blow is gonna make a horrific mess.
Lathe Biosas wrote: I have to add one thing that I want to fix on the Imperial Knights..
The chains word arm... does it look a tad short to anyone else?
I keep trying to figure out how IKs fight infantry... you know, without riverdancing on their heads.
Cap'n Facebeard wrote: Personally I only like the old box dreads. Even the contemptor just looks out of place to me.
I like them, I just wish they had proper knees. Add knees to classic box dreads and I'm happy.
You know, I looked closely at mine because of this comment and guess what?
They have knees! There's a little sceondary joint at the top of the lower leg armor plate. It may be clearer on the plastic model, butvI think the implication is therr in the metal ones, iirc.
Insectum7 wrote: In defense of the Chaos Spawn kit, it's got a TON of great bits for designing Spawn or swapping and adding nasty bits to your other chaos models. Back in 7th and 8th I often ran a few squads of them, and I managed to grab a Tide Of Spawn box off ebay. I combined them with some of the metal Spawn I already had to get variation. The metal Spawn model was nice, but you run a few of those and they get repeat-y real fast. Here's a sample of finished ones:
I also like how fast the plastic ones can look. The metal ones look pretty encubered, but the long legs of the plastics make it look like they could be very hard to get away from.
We’re typically much taller than corn, yeah? But we have these handy things called joints, which allow us to flex and fold and that.
Same with a Knight. Don’t have to be too fancy with your moves, because any infantry hit by your stopping swing probably isn’t gonna be around to tell the tale. Even a relatively glancing blow is gonna make a horrific mess.
How tall are you? Corn typically grows 9 to 12/13 feet... there's some hybrid stuff that's only 7 feet.
But to me, the chainsword arm just feels short.... The gauntlet just feels and looks better to me.
I always felt this about the Ork Stompas' chainsaw weapons. They have to pull up next to something and give them a 'broadside' swipe, as the chainblade can't reach in front of them.
A.T. wrote: In terms of building... i've never seen a metal exorcist kit that wasn't bent out of shape, though the penitent engines were worse if you didn't have a pinning drill with their top heavy design and terrible terrible joints.
GW's larger, multi-part metal models were fairly universally awful. Cast parts warp while cooling, and the bigger the part, the more prone to warping and the harder to fix.
Some of the old boxnaughts were ok, as they mostly slotted together with a basic pin-and-hole system, although the front armour could be a pain. But other than that, anything dreadnought sized or larger was best avoided in metal.
Hellebore wrote: the held weapons are for enemy vehicles. Trying to bend over and hit a grot with your mega chainsword is just silly.
But its so impractical even against vehicles My Stompa would have to pull up alongside an enemy tank, on the correct side, to swipe at it. Forget fighting anything like an Imperial Knight or Wraithknight, they could just walk out of the arc of the blade.
Hellebore wrote: the held weapons are for enemy vehicles. Trying to bend over and hit a grot with your mega chainsword is just silly.
But its so impractical even against vehicles My Stompa would have to pull up alongside an enemy tank, on the correct side, to swipe at it. Forget fighting anything like an Imperial Knight or Wraithknight, they could just walk out of the arc of the blade.
I think the Stompa is a standout for being a particularly impractical design. The Imperial and Eldar arms look a bit more capable of a swing.
See orks know what's what in close combat. They see those Eldar and Imperial knights with their thin legs, bodies and arms and all they can see is that one good chop and they just fall apart!
Ork Stompa's are brawlers. Sure you gotta get close to hit anything with the chainsword; but that's the same for the Imperial and Eldar ones too. Only the Stompa can take a chainsword to the belly and its still going to keep on functioning and going when it smashes its chainsword and cuts those thin mechs in half!
Nagash cops a lot of hate (or did, back in the day) and he's certainly silly looking, but claiming he's the ugliest denies the existence of miniatures like this -
insaniak wrote: Nagash cops a lot of hate (or did, back in the day) and he's certainly silly looking, but claiming he's the ugliest denies the existence of miniatures like this -
.
Ph Nagash is uglier by a long shot. Uberboar looks like it just needs a better paint job, and is arguably ugly on purpose.
Lathe Biosas wrote: The internet says that the old Nagash is the ugliest model in the history of the company.
Old Nagash is superior as a gaming piece to plastic Nagash.
He's not obnoxiously big, he's not covered in delicate little plastic spikes, and you can fit him in a case without much hassle.
The new one looks nice, but does seem very impractical. Which can be said about a lot of the Swirly Crap(tm) models.
The old one might have been a little goofy, but honestly his hat was not that far out of line with his peers. Big hat = important was the law of the day, and touched a lot of armies. And he was very important.
This thread has been going on for a while so apologies if someone already said this but for me, it's the Ministorum Crusaders.
The models aren't anything spectacular, the newer Blackstone Fortress one is a bit of an improvement but it's only the one model, and also I find that they seem lost locked in with the Sisters of Battle. I was recently frustrated to find out that they don't exist within the Agents of the Imperium codex as I was looking for some fun fluffy units to convert up for a small contingent of Imperium allies I'm planning. To me, they seem like a perfect fit for the stated M.O of the faction (regardless of how it turned out in execution) and I imagine you would find them tagging along to many forces within the Imperium in the lore. I'm actually a big fan of them as a concept and I've seen some great custom kitbashes for them online but I think GW has probably forgotten about them.
But yeah, I think most people just ended up kitbashing their own while disagreeing over which end of the official Cruiser model (itself looking like a kitbash from a Tyranid Warrior) is supposed to be the front.
I think that was when they were trying to do a vaguely realistic taken on Nid ships. End of the day if you are making an organism grow into a ship it isn't going to look that interesting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lathe Biosas wrote: I saw the most bizarre BFG game once, it was Tau v Tau. But one side had the all metal GW cigar Tau and the other side had beautiful FW Tau, which looked like how everyone imagined the Tau to look in space.
But because the universe is GrimDark, the ugly Tau won.
And this is another example. Tau ships look more 'sensible' spaceships. Boxy, large, all the angular atmospheric styling is pointless in space. Why wouldn't a rational race have sensible looking ships instead of the FW take which was taking styling over function?
but I got a nasty puncture wound on the bottom of my foot from chasing a dog and stepping on an old pewter dark Eldar, that was my roommates.
