Look, it's as much a part of the 'game' as low-balled funding goals, elastic stretch goals and incomplete add-ons. You can't just not threaten to drop your pledge or you throw the whole system off and threaten Mantic's long term success. Each kickstarter is a series of unstated negotiations, textual thrusts and parries and feints that unbalance your opponent, jockeying for position so that you can strike just the right bargain. This is no Occidental retail establishment where you simply pre-order a product for its sticker price and go your separate way--oh no, kickstarter is a warren of the kind of shrewd manipulation and haggling you'd expect to see in the most offensively-stereotyped Toydarian marketplace. A crucible of offer and counter-offer and insult.
Mantic: My friend! Let me show you my finest wares! Here, here, see this box? For you, I put in 22, no 23! of the finest miniatures ever made for the low price of 100 US credits.
Backers: $100 for that? May you grow onions from your pupik, you ganif!
M: Ah, you truly have the lobes for business. I can see that now. I will throw in the finest resins from the east, for a mere 25 additional credits.
B: Only a veruul would make such an offer. I should cut off your limbs for stealing. Fill the box with all the figures from the cover art and several exclusives or I will pull my pledge.
M: You have seized me by the base of my snarglies! I can give you all this, but only for 150. And only because we are such good friends.
B: Free PDF rules and extra tiles, or I send you to the hell where people are skinned alive. It's that simple.
M: You leave me a pauper! I make this deal only so you will stop flaying me alive!
The expansion crystallised something I don't like about this.
It just isn't epic. I expect first hordes of monsters, then when the heroes are both powerful and alcoholic enough to cut a swath through them without blinking, big tough monsters (mentally I assume a horde of lesser creatures die with every casual backswing).
This seems like you go into someone's underground terrace house, kill the family and steal the DVD player.
Bobtheinquisitor, you have just nailed and demonstrated the difference between kickstarter and preorder. It isn't the purchase of a product- it is the purchase of hope, and the realization that for the next two weeks, you will get more and more for your money as Mantic continues to titillate its buyers.
It just isn't epic. I expect first hordes of monsters, then when the heroes are both powerful and alcoholic enough to cut a swath through them without blinking, big tough monsters (mentally I assume a horde of lesser creatures die with every casual backswing).
This seems like you go into someone's underground terrace house, kill the family and steal the DVD player.
You've summed up what I was thinking, the dungeons seem to look a bit like a dwarf kings bungalow. I was hoping there'd be swarms of minions to kill before the big boss not three of his mates and the pets.
Hmmm. My laptop is banjacksed and I have to buy a new one, that's going to set me back a bit. I just paid 2 grand for my brother's spinal surgery too. Bank account is taking a bit of a pummelling. I'll keep my pledge there for now, but if the value isn't the sort of thing that I know will make me weep tears of shame for passing on it, I might have to pull my pledge.
Edit: Heh heh. I realised this post is hypocritical after my high minded "Oh, I only back because I want to see people succeed!" post earlier in the thread. Apologies! I guess it always comes down to the bank balance in the end.
Da Boss wrote: Edit: Heh heh. I realised this post is hypocritical after my high minded "Oh, I only back because I want to see people succeed!" post earlier in the thread. Apologies! I guess it always comes down to the bank balance in the end.
Of course it does. A variant form of Maslow's hierarchy of needs; toys and hobbies should always take a backburner to RL issues, especially when family is involved. Nothing shameful about that at all.
I'm still waiting for this to "wow" me. It looks good, but "good" does not translate to "$100+ a year in advance" when I can plunk that same $100 (technically $86 from MM) onto Descent and get their new expansions (specifically Crown of Destiny, Manor of Ravens, Skarn, Crusade of the Fallen) to my door by the early part of next week which would bring me 10 heroes and 27 monsters. Sure, I already have the core D2E and have access to it at reasonable prices (something I understand UK/EU backers may not have) but that's kind of the mental hurdle I'm struggling with. For $14 more a year in advance I'm essentially getting 5 additional "heroes" (counting the major DS villains as heroes) and while my sample size is only one I do find it hard to believe I'm unique in the market for this game in that regard. There's still a long way to go since we're not even halfway through this project, but I have to echo the feeling that right this second, the value isn't there.
However, this goes back to Azazelx's point about fake stretch goals. Were I not a previous backer of Mantic's familiar with their model and a fairly large supporter of their products in general, I wouldn't give this a second glance after crunching those numbers. I'd go "huh", move on and forget about the project. Maybe at the end if someone came back to tell me "hey, they really made this a good deal now", but I don't think Mantic has the market awareness even still to rely on that factor, and that assumes I didn't spend the available money on the competition in the interim. If you're going to go into a space with an established player, you really need to make sure your initial offering aligns roughly in value, especially when the time factor of a KS plays into it.
Still hopeful something comes along to shake me off the fence though.
Yes I would, if not a Mantic backer in the past, not have signed up. As it is without more content and at least plastic furniture the game offers nothing I can't get without getting hold of an electronic copy of the extra rulebook with the updated DKH scenarios.
Mantic: My friend! Let me show you my finest wares! Here, here, see this box? For you, I put in 22, no 23! of the finest miniatures ever made for the low price of 100 US credits.
*snip*
I was hoping for some exciting big dungeon monsters, but I don't think the game is really set up for that. It's more like a "tower defense" board game where you've got to push forward, not kill baddies per se. It's all about lanes of advance, and defending or breaching those lanes. So the dungeon designs make sense in that regard, as do the narrow corridors and rooms, but it won't be conducive to a big "wow" model.
Descent is tempting, alright. I've been on the verge of picking it up many times. The problem is I know I won't get anyone to play a game with me that takes longer than an hour and is that hard to learn.
More it goes on, more I think Mantic can't get it this wrong and really want to end up with a cheap box set, with a dedicated existing community to help with rues and internet content, to release into game stores and mass market.
Da Boss wrote: I was hoping for some exciting big dungeon monsters, but I don't think the game is really set up for that. It's more like a "tower defense" board game where you've got to push forward, not kill baddies per se. It's all about lanes of advance, and defending or breaching those lanes. So the dungeon designs make sense in that regard, as do the narrow corridors and rooms, but it won't be conducive to a big "wow" model.
Descent is tempting, alright. I've been on the verge of picking it up many times. The problem is I know I won't get anyone to play a game with me that takes longer than an hour and is that hard to learn.
Yeah, I'm starting to get that feeling too - but, I haven't messed with the alpha and we don't know much about the campaign game. As for other games, Descent, Super Dungeon Explore and Myth are more tactical combat games. I think Mice & Mystics might be the only dungeon exploring game on the market, but I haven't played it yet.
You were thinkin' it! I'm still not sold either, the solo/co-op helps a lot though.
Well, of course. Really though - it should be read as implicit in every kickstarter I back, without the need for me to be explicit. If only more people were this way we might have FOUR of the monsters in the box instead of two at retail or three in the KS...
Yeah, even the D'n'D boardgames ship with 3 of each and boss monsters.
Castle Ravenloft for example:
5 Heroes
4 Normal sized villains
2 Large villains (Golem and Dracolich)
3 Spiders
3 Wolves
3 Kobolds
3 Skeletons
3 Ghouls
3 Zombies
3 Wraiths
3 Burning Skeletons
3 Gargoyles
3 Rat Swarms
41 monsters (assuming I didn't leave something out) with two of them being pretty big. 3 of each type, plenty of cards, tokens and all the rest to make it worth your while. For less than 100 dollars. It's fun and fast playing too, where it falls down is not having a campaign mode to allow people to develop their heroes.
But hey. They're still adding stuff a bit at a time to the game, so it will probably exceed that value as time goes on. At least I hope so- I spent 100 euro more than I wanted to on my new laptop today!
Since Mantic is gaming Kickstarter, perhaps we could engineer another large freebie bailout like with Mars Attacks. Drop enough pledges within a few days to make it start backtrakcing and BOOM! Free giant stompy robot dragons for all!
So, there will only be two of each minion type in the game? What is this, Raiders of Noah's Ark? Herostroll? Dungeons and Dragonflies?
I guess it does open up the possibility of more content, such as PDFs detailing the entire life story, hopes and dreams of each goblin you kill. I predict two of them will be named after Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.
Many of us have plenty of minis to use in the game already so the lack of minis doesn't phase me so much so long as the overall value is there. If there was a large focus on awesome rules, lots of scenarios, deep gameplay, multi-level gameplay to slowly bring non-tabletoppers into it by layering rules up gently that would be fine for me. I doubt that's something they'll offer though, so yeah they do need to ensure that there's enough minis to warrant the cost basically.
Yeah. I have thousands of models, but I'm really not seeing the value in the package that they're offering at this point. Both the base level pledge and the add-ons are underwhelming. Particularly for a Kickstarter. And Particularly for a year out.
I should be wetting my pants with excitement for this, and instead I'm just quietly hoping that it becomes somewhat worthwhile by the end. You know the really sad part? Krinsath's post about the Descent expansions has me genuinely more excited than this KS does.
It's a buyers market it seems. Lets make Mantic dance for our dollars ; p I too shall have a look at descent I think - if this isn't clearly above a current retail offering... you know what's happening!
Da Boss wrote: Descent is tempting, alright. I've been on the verge of picking it up many times. The problem is I know I won't get anyone to play a game with me that takes longer than an hour and is that hard to learn.
Descent 2nd edition's quests are under an hour. The game's pretty easy to learn. Pick cool skills, roll dice, kill things. If you're looking for coop, pick up one of the coop campaigns.
The thing about models - yes we can all probably go to the cupboard and run a dungeon crawl right now if someone provides the tiles.
But... if that is the case Mantic are even worse off because as far as I can tell the non model bits are all at retail, will be cheaper than this and we can just use our own models.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, there will only be two of each minion type in the game? What is this, Raiders of Noah's Ark? Herostroll? Dungeons and Dragonflies?
I guess it does open up the possibility of more content, such as PDFs detailing the entire life story, hopes and dreams of each goblin you kill. I predict two of them will be named after Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.
While I do essentially agree, I would point out that:
1) There are actually 4 of the 'basic' enemy type for the setting (skeletons, zombies, goblin warriors), increased to 6 with the Kickstarter pledge/a retail add-on box.
2) These enemies respawn, and it looks like the "total number of enemies" might be on more of a room-by-room basis.
3) Fairly cheap stretch goals for when things are slowing down would be to increase/double the amount of minions for particular types - the moulds have been paid for already, so unit costs will be low.
4) I think Mantic is really keen to get this to retail for a sensible price and at a sensible box size, so while there's still definitely room for plenty more stuff in the base box, I think that beyond a certain point they're going to rely on expansions to put this into "epic dungeon crawl" territory, whether these are included in the base $100 pledge or not. Mars attacks has 40 models in a £50/$80 retail box, this currently has 28/29 in the retail box (some of which are very large), and I'll bet that Mantic wants to be able to sell it for £40.
I'm thinking the base game box set is definitely headed for a lower price point. Of course, that means it's something I'd be more likely to buy at retail too. I'm getting kind of torn, really.
On the one hand, it would be nice to have some fantasy rules to use with my old warhammer minis and incoming bones stuff, but then there are a lot of games (some fairly cheap, song of blades and heroes keeps coming up) that can also do that.
I look at the models and once I get past the ''shinies! I want all the things!" stage, I kind of realize that I'm not that interested in a lot of them. Dwarf isn't bad but he isn't bringing a lot to the table, Madriga either. Barbarian is a pretty good example of his kind, but Dranor seems a bit meh. Keldan looks enough like a certain other hero that I am interested, but not a whole kickstarter for one model. The zombie trolls look sweet, and would fit my undead horde, and I've always wanted trolls, AND they're better proportioned than normal mantic trolls. I'm not fussed at all about the tiles with Battle System's fantasy kickstarter incoming.
Though now I have to wonder if the game and BS fantasy terrain are really synergistic, DS seems to have really narrow halls and corridors that would be somewhat harder to represent with BS ramps, which favor larger rooms and wider halls (which is great for D&D).
I know I'll like all of the extra scenarios and missions they include with the extra characters, the old upgraded DKH missions, and all of that. The KS dungeon journal is one of the things keeping me hanging in there.
I just don't have the funds I did last year to spend on toys, and this one is looking like it'll be almost as fun to pick up at retail, given the only thing you're missing out on (if you don't know it exists) is some minis. I mean if you don't know you aren't getting Keldan and extra scenarios, the only thing the retail box may lack is depth of models and most of us can handle that.
I may have to do an Azazelx and pull my pledge, so as to afford other toys that won't be as gettable at retail.
Still looks awesome though, I think it'll be quite successful and I'm not going anywhere till we're a lot closer to the end.
Hey, I'm no water carrier or white knight, or even that much of a fanboy, I just happen to have liked most everything they've done up till now. And I like this too, but it would be fun to actually buy a mantic product at retail for once
Yeah, if Grimmy is looking at the possibility of pulling his pledge, Mantic needs to step up a bit. He's pretty close to as gung-ho as I am about their stuff, and if he's on the fence, they need to do something. When I get on the fence too, then they have to worry. And I might be joining him soon on saying "better value, or I jump" (aka, pledge a dollar just to get the resin minis and kickstarter exclusives).
This product isn't as "revolutionary" as the other ones were though imo, nor is it as targeted to us. It's targeted more at the casual boardgame market whereas Dreadball, Deadzone and Mars Attacks (not to mention KoW and WP) whilst light on the rules are still definitely tabletop wargames with a lot of depth. Because of all the choice we have that already exists in this area I think we're more picky than we otherwise would be, with already existing products doing exactly what this does it's harder to rationalize taking on the risk. While there are other skirmish games, DZ and MA were much more unique especially with the terrain, this doesn't have much that sets it apart as unique I don't think. We're just here because we're expecting "Mantic value" which we don't see yet.
Boardgamers are pretty hardcore still aren't they? They just have different priorities. Does the wait bother them more than it does us? We don't like delays but we accept them unless they're substantially beyond the projected date.
Yeah, I don't even know where I'll be living or working one year from now. When I put it like that, the wait time is a big factor.
Edit: I should say, I really want this to succeed because I want a quick to play and campaign orientated dungeon crawler, and DKH is a fun game. It's more my personal financial situation that is causing second thoughts.
Yeah money is more limited and more hobby competition (that interests me) abounds. I mean money out of the question I prefer the extra things like the dungeon journal and some of the models really appeal to me.
I really need to print out the alpha and sheets/cards and see if I find it fun. If the game appeals to me as much as Dz/Ma, its worth the money now to get more scenarios and stuff later.
Otherwise this may be a good thing to look out for on miniature market's deal of the day next year .
I'll try to get clear photos of everything they bring to Indianapolis, if they don't mind and things aren't too crazy.
Yeah, I finally decided to drop out. Pre-launch I was actually pretty stoked about this, but I just haven't been feeling the excitement; basically I've been skimming through the updates announcing new stretch goals with a big yawn. Having read the rules I'm a bit unsure if this will be a game I'll enjoy, and I'm just not certain what I should be expecting with regards to the quality of the minis (I don't own any Mantic stuff). Taken together, it simply makes more sense for me to wait for retail when I can check out reviews before making a purchase.
Yes... there is that. Plus, AntiMatter with its ShadowSea campaign has presently got it's hand deeply shoved into my wallet, groping around for more. As said, funds just aren't unlimited.
Yonan wrote: This product isn't as "revolutionary" as the other ones were though imo, nor is it as targeted to us. It's targeted more at the casual boardgame market whereas Dreadball, Deadzone and Mars Attacks (not to mention KoW and WP) whilst light on the rules are still definitely tabletop wargames with a lot of depth. Because of all the choice we have that already exists in this area I think we're more picky than we otherwise would be, with already existing products doing exactly what this does it's harder to rationalize taking on the risk. While there are other skirmish games, DZ and MA were much more unique especially with the terrain, this doesn't have much that sets it apart as unique I don't think. We're just here because we're expecting "Mantic value" which we don't see yet.
I'm not 100% in agreement with this though. The fact is, there aren't very many dungeon crawl, miniature-based boardgames on the market right now. Heroquest is long out of print. Warhammer Quest is long out of print. Descent 1 is out of print. Descent 2 is freely available, and a good choice. Myth is less available (at least in the UK), and probably not a good choice in terms of rules. Shadows of Brimstone is a completely different setting, quite expensive ($100 per base box), but may prove to be a good choice. Although I personally think "roll to move" is insane. Various RPGs may be good choices, but are a completely different and usually more time-consuming experience.
There is definitely a niche for this kind of game, particularly one with a distinct rules set - the existence of Descent should not block the development of all vaguely similar games. I also think that the basic vs. advanced options for the game are extremely interesting, as my opportunities for gaming are normally heavily limited by time - I love the concept of a single box that I can take down the pub and play in 60-90 mins, but with the option of a massive blowout campaign where I can use my wargaming models for an almighty horde. I am actually currently seeing the value in the KS offering (given the pathetic amount of value £60 gives me in the UK on retail boardgames), but admit that this should and probably will be increased further.
Well, I made that comparison further up the thread, and certainly when I played DKH it was a bit like that, at least for the basic scenarios. It's like Space Hulk, you know? Lots of thinking about lanes of advance, protecting certain avenues and positioning.
Whether it becomes more "explorey" with later scenarios and so on is not something that I can tell you though because my play experience is very limited (and only for DKH, not Dungeon Saga)
I'm not stoked either, but I'm also well aware of the ability to wait til the last day to see if it is worth it, which is what I'll do. I'm fairly confident it'll be worth my $100 by the end, so I'm not going to complain 18 days out.
That being said, I really really like the sculpts so far.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus, wait, correct me if I'm wrong, aren't there 42 figures in the main plege now?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually wait 42 on the pledge graphic plus we just got 3 free goblins and another hero shortly, so that's about 46 figs right now? Yeah, I think at this point it's worth me staying in.
Yeah, the add-ons were pretty lame this week. They might not want this thing to blow up while a lot of their team is at Gen-Con. They said themselves they are leaving the newer people in charge of the KS while they are gone.
Idk- 45 models (inc stretch models) plus all the other gubbinz they've thrown out there doesn't seem bad at all, VFM wise. I've pledged $1 so far to keep an eye on it. I guess I'll find out if I want a copy when the finish line's a bit closer.
angelofvengeance wrote: Idk- 45 models (inc stretch models) plus all the other gubbinz they've thrown out there doesn't seem bad at all, VFM wise. I've pledged $1 so far to keep an eye on it. I guess I'll find out if I want a copy when the finish line's a bit closer.
With all the resin figures from the base set now available, I think Mantic needs to add a collector's edition box set as an option (possibly even pledge level). Maybe only include the figures available at retail (so 2x the non-characters rather than 3x), but I'd definitely consider picking up a set with resin miniatures instead of restic, depending on the price.
angelofvengeance wrote: Idk- 45 models (inc stretch models) plus all the other gubbinz they've thrown out there doesn't seem bad at all, VFM wise. I've pledged $1 so far to keep an eye on it. I guess I'll find out if I want a copy when the finish line's a bit closer.
That is what a lot of people are saying.
To be fair thats what I did with dbx, still need to finalise my pledge there as well.
for this one I jumped in with the $100 pledge, guess I'll goto $150 before the pledge manager to help keep it ticking over, then grab any extras I fancy in the pm.
I wonder if they'll do any timed exclusives like in mars attacks with the extra figs if you pledged early?
I think what might get people actually excited about this would be the 3d terrain they showed in one of the videos, still my favorite part of the old heroquest. Models, I've got tons of those, cool looking dungeon terrain.....can you ever have enough?
Andrew1975 wrote: I think what might get people actually excited about this would be the 3d terrain they showed in one of the videos, still my favorite part of the old heroquest. Models, I've got tons of those, cool looking dungeon terrain.....can you ever have enough?
I think not knowing whether or not the terrain will be upgraded is why Mantic hasn't given a retail price. The cost difference between having plastic terrain and cardboard terrain is significant.
Azazelx wrote: Thing is, for a hundred bucks with a year's wait, it's not exactly perfect for the BGG crowd, either...
Agreed. BGG'ers are pretty content waiting for retail, where they can find a boardgame at 20% - 30% off. Miniature's aren't important, gameplay is, and asking $100 for a boardgame is a bit much, even with the expansions. Additionally, BGG'ers want to know the rules beforehand. So far, we've only been shown the entry-level alpha rules. With these hardcore boardgamers used to Descent 2nd edition complexity, they need to be shown the Advanced Rules *and* MSRP before making a decision. Otherwise, why not wait for the $75 game be available for $50 at the OLGS had pay half as much money for the same gameplay?
I'm honestly quite unsure about this one myself still, I have been super-stoked about previous Mantic Kickstarters, even Mars Attacks where I basically got 68 minis, counters, rules, terrain for $15.
It was possible to build a pledge with 150+ minis for $150, so with this something close to 100 minis would be quite nice.
This is.. 44 minis currently. Some of them are resin, but I'm not interested in expensive resin, I'm a Mantic customer who wants hordes of cheap stuff. :p
It might all work out in the end, but the amount of resin in there might limit things a bit.
Andrew1975 wrote: I think what might get people actually excited about this would be the 3d terrain they showed in one of the videos, still my favorite part of the old heroquest. Models, I've got tons of those, cool looking dungeon terrain.....can you ever have enough?
I think not knowing whether or not the terrain will be upgraded is why Mantic hasn't given a retail price. The cost difference between having plastic terrain and cardboard terrain is significant.
I suspect Mantic knows what plastic terrain they are going to include already. They are holding it back until either some emergency like a backslide in pledges, or to get the Final Push really moving (obviously their preference).
I do think it needs something to make it look more epic, atm as has been said the board looks a little small (not helped by the single square corridors) and there doesn't seem to be the hordes of enemies to fight.
The figures do look great tho, theres only the halfling warrior im not too keen on.
edlowe wrote: I do think it needs something to make it look more epic, atm as has been said the board looks a little small (not helped by the single square corridors) and there doesn't seem to be the hordes of enemies to fight.
The figures do look great tho, theres only the halfling warrior im not too keen on.
but...but....but....it's a Peter Dinklage look-alike!
Grim has summed it up well for me. I want stuff I haven't got - so rules, terrain, etc. Mini's for me in this one are a distant third in terms of value. If what I want is in the retail I will be shopping at Dark Sphere in a years time...
I suspect Mantic knows what plastic terrain they are going to include already. They are holding it back until either some emergency like a backslide in pledges, or to get the Final Push really moving (obviously their preference).
I agree with you here. Though at the moment, I'm starting to lean towards finally getting those Hirst Arts moulds I've wanted for years and a nice big bag of dental plaster.
I do like most of the sculpts. But will the promise of good rules and those undead troll sculpts (which are the only really unique/special sculpts here) be enough to keep me in?)
It doesn't have any pizzazz.
I'm in for now as MYTH was a bust for me but stylistically I haven't been impressed so far.
What I'm really looking for is something with Kingdom Deaths attention to detail and quality...but that I can play with my kidswithout getting on a watch list.
I've had a think about it and although I want more included in My pledge I'm ok with the price to mini ratio at the moment. (I may also have been drinking so this could change in sober light )
45 minis so less than £1.50 a mini with more to be added that's not bad in my book. Ideally I'd like warhammer quest levels of quantity and awesome but those days are gone :(
Quality is going to be the kicker for me but hopefully we'll hear more about the mars attacks plastic from gencon (I'm still worried that it will turn faces to mush).
The dollar value per mini isn't so bad at this point and should get better. It will really depend on if I've got the 100-150 to burn and feel like it on the last day, otherwise someone will get my early bird and I'll wait for retail.
If they get around to showing the custom character creation (this was a plan at some point right?) and it's good/not bad, that will really tilt me towards staying in. If I can run a board game that fairly simulates D&D (with some light character generation, and such) but it's still a boardgame as far as people can tell.... it'll be a nice gateway game to getting people into D&D itself.
I think the game is a good value so far, for me anyway.. and it will only get better as the campaign goes on I like playing Descent, but I'm looking forward to this one too, there's always room for more dungeons to crawl through.
Really like how the game looks with the BOW crew playing it. Sounds good with the add ons, and there seems to be a good head of steam on the upcoming expansions, as well.
Grot 6 wrote: Really like how the game looks with the BOW crew playing it. Sounds good with the add ons, and there seems to be a good head of steam on the upcoming expansions, as well.
you know, that was the only BoW video i have watched this year. I dislike Warrens attitude as well as the airs he puts on, but as a person he's a decent guy (having talked to him personally a few times via email)
The_Real_Chris wrote: That you paint yourself? No way, why bother? Go the extra 100 meters and get some hirst stuff.
So instead of having to paint it yourself, you'd rather cast it yourself.. and then have to paint it yourself?
Over MDF? While MDF can look great, it often requires quite a lot of work. May as well cast the Hirst stuff in many ways. Especially since you have unlimited casts after the upfront amount.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One other thing worth noting is when we're discussing "value" that people will look at the figures differently. Boardgame PVC plastic might be ok, but it's not going to be the same as what I consider "proper" miniatures, and so I personally value them accordingly lower. The figures we've been shown so far look lovely, but they're not production plastic - they're likely resin masters painted to the best of what Mantic can source. Just like the MA figure previews have mould lines and soft details on the brains etc (from photos I've seen, anyway), the final figures will not likely be as sharp, or, well, good as what we've been shown for the ten or so models shown so far.
My biggest concern is the legs this game should have.
Those advanced rules better have a lot going for them.
As it stands, I'm seeing Dwarf King's Hold 4, which is what this game started as, but that was much more of a tactical game than an adventure one.
Campaigns, traps, enemy variety... that's what I'm looking for in an adventure game.
We're getting there, slowly but surely. Having that Salamander hero in the box will seal the deal for me. And the furniture. Abyssals and their Dwarf buddis too.
Maybe some dungeon critters to step on while we're at it.
Yonan wrote: This product isn't as "revolutionary" as the other ones were though imo, nor is it as targeted to us. It's targeted more at the casual boardgame market whereas Dreadball, Deadzone and Mars Attacks (not to mention KoW and WP) whilst light on the rules are still definitely tabletop wargames with a lot of depth. Because of all the choice we have that already exists in this area I think we're more picky than we otherwise would be, with already existing products doing exactly what this does it's harder to rationalize taking on the risk. While there are other skirmish games, DZ and MA were much more unique especially with the terrain, this doesn't have much that sets it apart as unique I don't think. We're just here because we're expecting "Mantic value" which we don't see yet.
I'm not 100% in agreement with this though. The fact is, there aren't very many dungeon crawl, miniature-based boardgames on the market right now. Heroquest is long out of print. Warhammer Quest is long out of print. Descent 1 is out of print. Descent 2 is freely available, and a good choice. Myth is less available (at least in the UK), and probably not a good choice in terms of rules. Shadows of Brimstone is a completely different setting, quite expensive ($100 per base box), but may prove to be a good choice. Although I personally think "roll to move" is insane. Various RPGs may be good choices, but are a completely different and usually more time-consuming experience.
There is definitely a niche for this kind of game, particularly one with a distinct rules set - the existence of Descent should not block the development of all vaguely similar games. I also think that the basic vs. advanced options for the game are extremely interesting, as my opportunities for gaming are normally heavily limited by time - I love the concept of a single box that I can take down the pub and play in 60-90 mins, but with the option of a massive blowout campaign where I can use my wargaming models for an almighty horde. I am actually currently seeing the value in the KS offering (given the pathetic amount of value £60 gives me in the UK on retail boardgames), but admit that this should and probably will be increased further.
I was at work earlier, so couldn't really respond to this post very well. There are 3 D&D boardgames on the market (Ravenloft, Ashadalon, Drizzzzzzzzt) all of which are in print, and, well, Hasbro. While they don't offer "proper" campaign rules, they're very playable, and intersect with much of the D&D range as feeder products, and also are cross-compatible with the Dungeon Command series of games. These are much more accessible than Descent V2, both in terms of starting to play and also distribution, because Hasbro. Not to mention that people have actually heard of D&D (and LotR). It's not an incredibly crowded space for the non-enthusiast, but there's stuff there with name recognition.
Of course, for us enthusiasts, we either own HQ, or can pick it up reasonably easily from eBay. Descent V1 is more challenging, but it can be done. Brimstone has yet to prove itself, and the western-Cthulhu setting makes it thematically quite different to the sword and sorcery niche that this fits into - and as you've said, Myth is well known by now as a poor-to-average choice by our kind.
The_Real_Chris wrote: That you paint yourself? No way, why bother? Go the extra 100 meters and get some hirst stuff.
So instead of having to paint it yourself, you'd rather cast it yourself.. and then have to paint it yourself?
Over MDF? While MDF can look great, it often requires quite a lot of work. May as well cast the Hirst stuff in many ways. Especially since you have unlimited casts after the upfront amount.
What leads you to that conclusion? Just curious, I kind of skimmed the update. Also the stretch is nice, increasing mini count in both the core game and first expansion.
This campaign has been barrels of fun so far and we’ve a major milestone goal coming up next, so we’re once again after your feedback as to where we should go…
So, pull up a pew by that table, grab that candle off those bookshelves and grab a drink from that chest over there. We’re all ears >
I like that they are giving a sample of the Orcs and Goblins with the base pledge so I'll be able to check them out before purchasing the expansion right now I think I'll wait for it at retail as I'd want to see the sculpts - I find the O&G range to be very hit and miss. That and discount retail versus KS prices have been fairly similar from past experience it's onlt the bulk deals that work out better.
Yeah, I think this was the tipping point for me - there's like 50 figs in there after the Morax goal gets busted right? And I have a feeling the 400k stretch is definitely going to be plastic furniture. Yeah, I'm staying.
Azazelx wrote: ...and there we are. Stretch goal to fill out the expansion pack.
Unless I'm totally blind or illiterate, it adds to both the basic pledge and the expansion pack. Sound good to me on both counts.
Not really my point at all. To make it much more explicit, that point being is that the $25 expansion packs are just as subject to having content removed from what is planned for release in order to provide us with "fake stretch goals" as the rest of the project has been.
Azazelx wrote: ...and there we are. Stretch goal to fill out the expansion pack.
Unless I'm totally blind or illiterate, it adds to both the basic pledge and the expansion pack. Sound good to me on both counts.
Not really my point at all. To make it much more explicit, that point being is that the $25 expansion packs are just as subject to having content removed from what is planned for release in order to provide us with "fake stretch goals" as the rest of the project has been.
I dunno; it's entirely possible that tooling a fig costs a couple grand so a 10k stretch goal covers the design, sculpting, tooling and production costs. I'd rather have 10k-15k stretches that produce good stuff versus the KoW 5k stretches that have no room for error and we get KoW Trolls and Mummies.
I'm sure it does, but it's still dodgy as feth since they're asking for the same amount for the expansions as they were before. Same deal if they drop that lizard-riding goblin in as a boss (which might make the expack worthwhile for me, assuming I stay in).
The issue is that we know the prices are all based on what they intend to have in the sets by the completion of the campaign, so they've been showing us a rather long and boring set of underwhelming products in an attempt to keep us excited when they "add" a figure that's plainly supposed to be in the product to begin with.
I don't really consider anything we've seen to be a "stretch goal freebie", given that the game still isn't worth the hundred bucks they're asking. They're still adding in the stuff that's been removed, and we're yet to hit $100 value, let alone $100 to be paid a year out (plus shipping, pls expansions).
I'm hopeful that it will be by the end, but let's not pretend that there are any real freebies here. Everything is paid for in that $100. It's a particularly underwhelming campaign so far. We're halfway through, and there's not been anything exciting shown yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not angry at them. Just underwhelmed, a bit jaded and bored, and there are far more pressing and interesting things asking for my $100+ dollars right now. If anything, I'm a bit disappointed in them because I expected something a bit more exciting or interesting.
While it's of course abundantly clear that the majority of SGs so far were "fake", I've chosen to turn a blind eye to that and try to enjoy the ride
Though I have nudged my pledge down a bit and ordered one of the D&D boardgames as well, that strikes me as better value than $50 extra resin figures and tiles a year hence.
I'm hopeful that it will be by the end, but let's not pretend that there are any real freebies here. Everything is paid for in that $100.
Wouldn't that be the definition of any Kickstarter? The pledge should cover the costs to manufacture, produce, and ship the product to the backer without incurring a loss.
Well, I guess the definition of any Kickstarter that actually delivers, I suppose.
This has been thrown around a bunch but on the main page of the KS they address the "year out" bit
"The other challenge is delays from the manufacturer – something that has meant we’ve gone down to the wire on a number of occasions with sculpting deadlines and delivery to our warehouse. We’ve deliberately added a couple of extra months to our shipping date to cater for this, meaning we can work on checking the quality of everything that comes through."
My personal analysis is that Mantic could easily get this out in like 6 months, but then there'd be cries of "well if they hadn't rushed it to meet their delivery time, If Mantic had just delayed it or maybe set it 12 months out we'd have much better x and y and everyone would have been just fine with that, but no, they rushed it just like they always do. Mantic... almost." I also think Mantic will deliver well before 12 months (judging by their own wording they think it'll be done in 9 months plus "a couple months")
Now, personally, I'd rather you not pledge on this so you can buy more of my stuff.
Wondering if a future pledge target will add in a boss to that expansion pack ?
I don't really need this game. I own a couple of the D&D games, Descent and have pledged heavily for the forthcoming Heroquest. But, this is looking like a better and better deal all the time, especially with the exchange rate as it is now.
Azazelx wrote: In the meantime, check out the actual D&D boardgames. Not trying to talk you out of this game. It's a year away, after all.
I've got all three of those, and they are lot of fun.
Yes they are fun and reasonably priced. Between those and Descent though I still haven't quite been able to re-create the fun I used to have with Warhammer and Heroquest. Is it just a rose-tinted spectacles thing? Good excuse to pick up these new Dungeon Delving games in any case!
Now, as an addendum, I'm not trying to tell anyone they're wrong if they don't feel the value is there. Obviously, do what you want with your own money. I dove in on day 1, was like, "this looks a little weak for $100", and proceeded to basically ignore most of the campaign til now, and now we're getting like 50 figs for the pledge. I like the sculpts, so this is the point in the campaign where I personally feel my $100 is worth it. Some people won't feel that way til later, or maybe never.
I think they'll probably add another two or even three $25 expansions, each of which will add another half-dozen figs to the main $100 pledge, like the orcs and goblins one (which added 3 goblins, orcling swarm, morax, and mawbeast to main pledge), making the $100 pledge be crammed full of figs. My guesstimate is ~70 figs plus furniture by the end of the campaign.
I'm also thinking Abyssal Dwarves and Twilight Kin are the next two expansions, in that order, and if it gets really crazy near the end, an Abyssals/Demons expansion.
Notice also that they've changed the main graphic and split the minis up, including the early +3 stretch goals so that 2 are up top, and 1 is a bonus - I think they're trying to distinguish what is going to be in the final retail box, and what we get as an extra bonus for being backers (except for Kapoka, who I reckon will come in the retail version of the Galahir expansion despite being a 'bonus' for backers)
Slinky wrote: I've ordered "Wrath of Ashardalon" - which ones are you talking about?
That one (it's part 2), Castle Ravenloft (part 1) and The Legend of Drizzt (part 3) - though they're not an actual campaign, so you can play them in any order you like, and you can expand them with the contents of each other game, as well as the Dungeon Command prepaint sets.
I'm hopeful that it will be by the end, but let's not pretend that there are any real freebies here. Everything is paid for in that $100.
Wouldn't that be the definition of any Kickstarter? The pledge should cover the costs to manufacture, produce, and ship the product to the backer without incurring a loss.
Well, I guess the definition of any Kickstarter that actually delivers, I suppose.
See, I'm actually fine with that, but I'd rather that they didn't try to make out like we were then making out like bandits and getting a ton of freebies by including an extra PVC boardgame figure here and there. Besides, Mantic's various KS prices have come close to discounted retail on more than a few occasions in the last couple of years, so they're generally making more than a wholesale level of profit on each set sold. Again - fine, but don't tell me it's "filled with free extras" (not you - them and the occasional water-carrier).
This has been thrown around a bunch but on the main page of the KS they address the "year out" bit
"The other challenge is delays from the manufacturer – something that has meant we’ve gone down to the wire on a number of occasions with sculpting deadlines and delivery to our warehouse. We’ve deliberately added a couple of extra months to our shipping date to cater for this, meaning we can work on checking the quality of everything that comes through."
My personal analysis is that Mantic could easily get this out in like 6 months, but then there'd be cries of "well if they hadn't rushed it to meet their delivery time, If Mantic had just delayed it or maybe set it 12 months out we'd have much better x and y and everyone would have been just fine with that, but no, they rushed it just like they always do. Mantic... almost." I also think Mantic will deliver well before 12 months (judging by their own wording they think it'll be done in 9 months plus "a couple months")
Again, I'm fine with them taking a year and/or having padded the dates - but by the same token, it's money paid out a long time in advance, so it has to be balanced against what you might want to buy today.
Now, personally, I'd rather you not pledge on this so you can buy more of my stuff.
See, you jest here, but actually make the point for me!
Ctrl+V is for people who aren't scrambling to get ready to drive four hours to Indianapolis so they can see them in person while an angry toddler is being... uncooperative.
edlowe wrote: Those pictures have definitely sealed the deal for me!
The figures seem to look better in those shots, those trolls look huge.
Remember that those will be resin casts, so have better detail than the PVC figures that come with the set. Shouldn't be a huge difference, but you should factor it in.
See, I'm actually fine with that, but I'd rather that they didn't try to make out like we were then making out like bandits and getting a ton of freebies by including an extra PVC boardgame figure here and there. Besides, Mantic's various KS prices have come close to discounted retail on more than a few occasions in the last couple of years, so they're generally making more than a wholesale level of profit on each set sold. Again - fine, but don't tell me it's "filled with free extras" (not you - them and the occasional water-carrier).
Again, I'm fine with them taking a year and/or having padded the dates - but by the same token, it's money paid out a long time in advance, so it has to be balanced against what you might want to buy today.
Fair points. From my own armchair generaling, it shoulda been an initial goal of what they actually needed for the main set, 200k or whatever. But everyone loves a KS rush, so the 50k-200k most likely was just 'padding the retail release' by actually funding the core set up to 200k. Fine by me, like I said, the more recent actual freebies makes it worth it personally.
GrimDork wrote: Ctrl+V is for people who aren't scrambling to get ready to drive four hours to Indianapolis so they can see them in person while an angry toddler is being... uncooperative.
Ah OK mate in that case I take it back, heroic of you for even getting the link in there !
edlowe wrote: Those pictures have definitely sealed the deal for me!
The figures seem to look better in those shots, those trolls look huge.
Remember that those will be resin casts, so have better detail than the PVC figures that come with the set. Shouldn't be a huge difference, but you should factor it in.
Also remember that Mantic's models are smaller than GW's by and large. I'm sure the trolls will still be decently sized, but just not as huge as they look in those pics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think this set really needs more of a Big Bad. The lack of same is one of the things that really prevents this game from having the Epic feeling that it should (as well as 2 of each mob @retail)
Furniture is nice, but check these sets out:
Project Update #25: Pull up a chair.
Posted by Mantic Games ♥ Like
UNLOCKED – BONUS ENEMIES: Orc Morax
We’ve smashed through another stretch goal, unlocking the two new minions in The Warlord of Galahir.
This means you have a brand new foe to face: hulking great Orcs!
Not only that but there’s new recruits for the baddies: an Orc Morax, a Mawbeast and an Orcling Swarm to add to you Dungeon Master pledge level.
Milestone Goal
We’re coming up to a new milestone goal:
$400,000. Who would have thought we’d have been here this quickly?!
It can only be one thing.
Something we’ve been asked for *A LOT* since we started the campaign.
You wanted, you got it.
Free in your pledge.
Let’s do this!
$400,000 – BONUS: Sculpted 3D Dungeon Furniture in plastic!
If we hit this stretch goal, we will upgrade the card Dungeon Furniture in your Dungeon Master ($100 and Early Bird) pledge level to sculpted 3D versions in plastic, for free!
There’s everything from bookcases to a crypt, barrels and chests - even a Dwarf Throne! This dungeon furniture will enhance your game set, making it more 3D and visually enticing, whilst also being made of hard-wearing material to withstand the rigours of gaming.
As part of this goal we’re also going to make a new Optional Add-on available so that you can get more for your dungeon:
How to add an Optional Add-on:
The Dungeon Saga Kickstarter is going to be full of fantastic freebies for you to feast on but occasionally we'll offer up great value packs to enhance your gameplay experience. You can get these Optional Add-ons by raising your pledge amount.
To do this, click “Manage my Pledge” in the top right corner of the Kickstarter page and input the total value of everything you want. For example, if you’re at Dungeon Master ($100) and want the The Warlord of Galahir Expansion set, you would enter $125 as your total pledge. When the campaign has finished, we will send you access to a shiny PledgeManager (the same as DreadBall Xtreme if you’re familiar with that Kickstarter).
On here you will input your choices and let us know what you would like for your pledge ☺
Let’s get this goal beaten and locked - it's a big one!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm really underwhelmed by this. 8 pieces? One of each? $15 for another set?
I was thinking that was a pretty good deal as far as dungeon terrain goes.. (think works out at about £8-9 in UK money, not sure about Aus?)
If you were going to get that kind of stuff from Ainsty Castings, Fenris Games or some of the other resin producers, you would probably be paying £4-5 for each of those. I don't think the price is too far removed from Gamezone's Heroquest stuff (also plastic), although not sure about other KS?
I think $15 is about right -- especially since most miniature websites charge $7 or so for shipping. I backed Itar's Workshop, Mythical Lairs, Bones II, and their accessories are roughly the same price. The material's different, but most furniture doesn't have details, so I'd be fine with plastic.
As an entry-level KS, the $100 is looking like a good "starter set" for the new dungeoncrawler gamer. However, as others have said, I'm not sure how many of the "alpha gamers" on KS, particularly miniatures hobbyists, are seeing enough new to pledge. Unlike heroes and monsters, I think you *can* have enough furniture!
Is the material they use in the DandD sets the same as their other minis (There is significant bendy sword/spear syndrome in the pics)? Some big bad is definitely needed however , along with an abyssal/twilight kin expansion or two.
The furniture expansion is a nice bonus and I feel sure it will be added to later. We need an orc boss for the warlord expansion to round it out.
ced1106 wrote: Unlike heroes and monsters, I think you *can* have enough furniture!
Heresy!
I like the furniture, and the price seems alright. The only thing I'm unsure about is the plastics quality; this stuff is all board-game quality rather than wargames quality, and that might be enough to kill it for me.
The only thing I would say regarding the furniture is the duplication of the Dwarf throne. Though it actually doesn't seem if it would look out of place on a 40k board... I suppose it would be an idea for any spares!
I'm a bit confused by the numbering, for a couple of reasons:
1) On all prior stretch goals, they've made it clear exactly how many of each model you're getting - (3) Trolls, or (1) Troll Shaman. No such thing here.
2) They say that they're upgrading all of the cardboard furniture tokens to the plastic versions, but the 'box contents' graphic on the main page shows far more than 8 pieces, particularly for the smaller items (barrels, chests). I suspect that this will be clarified, but it should have been clear in the first place.
I'm not angry at them. Just underwhelmed, a bit jaded and bored, and there are far more pressing and interesting things asking for my $100+ dollars right now. If anything, I'm a bit disappointed in them because I expected something a bit more exciting or interesting.
Snap (crackle and pop).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wow, underwealming.
36 minutes ago
I know a lot of you have been showing some concern over the contents of the scenery pack, just so you are all aware the image we have posted is of concept scenery pieces. The final addition will contain more pieces especially the barrels and chests but the final contents won't be confirmed until we can get the tooling done. We will change the add on and stretch goal graphic to reflect this. Thanks, Kieren
Everyone's acting like they have to spend $15 to get the scenery pack, but as far as I can tell the $100 pledge now comes with it, correct? So it's more stuff included in the $100 pledge... so why the complaints?
Particularly as they have said that there is likely to be more than the image shows in the set. The box contents may be a pretty good guide here. I can't see mantic putting in one barrel in set ( not after the mass of material that came in the deadzone terrain).
judgedoug wrote: Everyone's acting like they have to spend $15 to get the scenery pack, but as far as I can tell the $100 pledge now comes with it, correct? So it's more stuff included in the $100 pledge... so why the complaints?
Because it isn't very good? And people were expecting lots of free terrain anyway. This is somewhat underwealming. It is not 'hey what a great extra', but rather 'this is what I was waiting for?'. Not bad enough to start a load of dropped pledges, but I can't see it driving forward much.
Hell with the exception of the chests (I use Impact miniatures chests and water coolers anyway below), the heroquest stuff looks better.
@The_Real_chris - Can you please point out where it is possible to buy dungeon terrain that is of comparable pricing and quality? That's a genuine question, most of the stuff I have seen may be a bit more detailed but is a lot more expensive.
With someone like Ainsty Castings for instances you would be probably paying $4-5 for each of those (albeit in resin).
I would have to go and do a load of interweb searching... Most of my stuff has come packaged with miniatures, a lot from wargames foundry in metal blister packs from shows (got some great generic bar and dwarf stuff), quite a bit from ebay, a load of old citadel stuff I bought a couple of decades ago, and I tend to be shopping for stuff to use with blood bowl sidelines. I was int he Reaper kickstarter for a while to get a load of furniture, dungeon denizens and civies and a few others, but ultimately pulled out a couple of months after it ends because I couldn't justify the addition tot he unpainted horde...
Considering i have been able to get whatever I wanted fairly cheaply up till now I didn't imagine there is a dearth of the stuff cheaply, though looking with a quick search now I am surprised at the scarcity. (Looking at the armourcast site for example http://www.armorcast.com/fantasy/dungeon-decor ).
Back bit more on topic I would expect the same sort of 'value' I see for the Reaper bones dungeon furniture in their kickstarter, which seemed to offer more $ for $.
Incidentally when I am after stuff I typically post a question on the miniatures page forum as the chaps there are quite helpful and knowledgeable.
Hell with the exception of the chests (I use Impact miniatures chests and water coolers anyway below), the heroquest stuff looks better.
Uhh, Heroquest 89? You are telling everyone with a straight face that you prefer the flat cardboard rectangle bookcase to one with shelves and books modeled on it?
Okay, I have like 3 or 4 sets of Heroquest, perhaps you'd like to trade one-for-one my HQ Furniture for your Dungeon Saga furniture?
I will cheerfully swap my stuff with you for the 1 to 1 $ value of my heroquest stuff (Well I would if I didn't already have loads, but you get the sentiment.) Bear in mind the heroquest stuff is incredibly cheap...
I think the whole package of bones furniture would be around $20? I will try and put together the graphic and cost.
Bones 1 - Dungeon Dressing - in the initial pledge or $8 for an extra set.
Spoiler:
Bones 2 - Dungeon Decor - in initial pledge or $6 for an extra set
Spoiler:
Bones 2 - Dungeon Decor 2 - $10 for an extra set
Spoiler:
(They incidentally did some vermin, great civvies and henchmen for your heroes in the first bones - hope we get henchmen in this!)
Ok, bit more but an interesting comparison, at least for me.
You then of course have the more expensive resins as other have pointed out, like the below I got for £15
I generally agree with Chris. Between the Reaper Bones, Dwarven Forge and Itar's Workshop kickstarters, I've got comparable or better furniture items with much more variation and use. I don't think the value works in favor of DS. For example, the DS stuff is a hodgepodge. You don't have a room set. You don't have a table set. You have a table. You don't have any chairs. There's no bedroom furniture. You get 1 barrel, so you don't exactly have a beer cellar. My point is, even if you like the DS stuff, you need to part out some extras to fill in the blanks. As Chris said, it's nice-ish, but it's not the "now I must buy DS" item.
DS has value, but for those who have HQ/WhQ/Descent and enough critters/furniture from other miniatures companies, DS is not a must-have. I'm still inclined to wait for retail, though I suppose there's still time to blow everyone away.
Fugazi wrote: DS has value, but for those who have HQ/WhQ/Descent and enough critters/furniture from other miniatures companies, DS is not a must-have.
Yep. Here's what $15 got you from the Mythical Lairs KS. Each set, unpainted, went for $15.
Spoiler:
Of course, you can't go back in time for these KS, and I haven't seen any dungeon dressing KS lately. Battle Systems (sp?) has plasticard dungoen furniture in its upcoming KS. The DSDM set still isn't a bad deal for anyone who doesn't already have furniture. Not as deluxe as HQ25, but half the price for the "sweet spot", none of the IP issues, an experienced game designer, rules preview, and a game company that has put out previous miniatures boardgames.
Fugazi wrote: DS has value, but for those who have HQ/WhQ/Descent and enough critters/furniture from other miniatures companies, DS is not a must-have.
Yep. Here's what $15 got you from the Mythical Lairs KS. Each set, unpainted, went for $15.
Yeah, don't remind me. At the time I was more interested in the Dwarven Forge than the Hirst Arts-based stuff. I wrote off the Mythical Lairs KS. I figured I had enough from DF and Itar. Somehow I just didn't see the accessories add ons until after ML ended. Bummer, because that was a sweet deal.
Sorry gents, but I must be seeing something different here.
The Mythical Lairs item quality in those images looks terrible. I would genuinely stick with my HQ furniture over that. The Bones add ons are an eclectic mix at best and come out at around the same value as the DS stuff (assuming you are adding on extra and not getting the free set already in the DM pledge level). The resin set from the Clan Mcfiggin KS is very nice, but more expensive - $25 at current exchange rate (so you get what you pay for).
Plus, they have said the image shows a concept not final contents - I can't believe mantic would supply one barrel after the load they included in the deadzone terrain.
I just can't see the problem with more dungeon furniture. Edit - doesn't mean there couldn't be more variation to the furniture however. I also see the point that veterans don't see value in things they already have.
The same thing happened with the Mars Attacks urban accessories. Mantic shows a temporary image of some WIP terrain painted up, showing just 4 pieces (only 2 unique) but the actual set comes with a hell of a lot more:
02Laney wrote: Sorry gents, but I must be seeing something different here. .
You are. Those paint jobs are terrible and the sets come unpainted for $15. You can do a better paint job yourself. HQ is fine -- and I still don't have a hobby miniatures to replace my HQ alchemist bench -- but the cardboard sticks out. It *is* "prepainted", so good for tabletop. I*m *very* glad I have the WizKids Artifacts sets, particularly the Traps set. And they look even better with a wash. Why they're not re-issuing them with the D&D miniatures is beyond me.
I have some resin pieces from Itar's Workshop, and they look great. Not display-level pieces, but I got 50+ wood pieces primed, spray painted, and washed pretty quickly. You can see the gaps in the photo, but I'm going to play with 'em further than five inches away. Should have spray painted pieces in different wood colors, but, oh well.
As for cheap dungeon furniture, you can find some, including prepainted, digging around the internet. Search on "ebay dungeon hirst arts" for various precasted terrain. Don't search on just "ebay dungeon furniture" unless you're "into" that sort of thing...
02Laney wrote: Sorry gents, but I must be seeing something different here.
The Mythical Lairs item quality in those images looks terrible. I would genuinely stick with my HQ furniture over that. The Bones add ons are an eclectic mix at best and come out at around the same value as the DS stuff (assuming you are adding on extra and not getting the free set already in the DM pledge level). The resin set from the Clan Mcfiggin KS is very nice, but more expensive - $25 at current exchange rate (so you get what you pay for).
The mythical lairs stuff is painted at a very basic level. The DS stuff is painted well. You should be able to tell that.
Plus, they have said the image shows a concept not final contents - I can't believe mantic would supply one barrel after the load they included in the deadzone terrain.
I just can't see the problem with more dungeon furniture. Edit - doesn't mean there couldn't be more variation to the furniture however. I also see the point that veterans don't see value in things they already have.
They backpedalled a bit on that first image that showed 8 pieces and added a second barrel to the picture. I can't see adding money for an additional set until a pledge manager at best, though - once the final product has been worked out a lot more from it's current vague list - with a hell of a lot more pieces...
Doug - The stuff Mantic is using here is Boardgame plastic - Bones is essentially the same stuff (only white). I doubt there's a really significant price difference to produce. People comparing this stuff to Resins are being a bit silly in regard to the materials.
As for why it's underwheming - The_Real_Chris and Fugazi said it well - it's both "this is what I was waiting for?" combined with "not even a proper single room set".
Mantic should be glad their KS will be over by time Zealot's KS hits in regards to Dungeon add-ons so I doubt you will see any impact. But in regards to dungeon-doo-dads, most people can always use another set so multiple product lines are not mutually exclusive the way terrain sets often are. A DM would probably buy both the bones and mantic sets for variety because of the nature of 'doo-dads' you can mix lines way better than 3D terrain or hero/monsters with different aesthetics.
All dressings will go equally well with my battle systems fantasy terrain... when that happens.
So we get 2 more models or what 4 or 5 more with the expansion? Neat. I'll take em.
With Chris confirming the lack of warpath kickstarter this year and the fantasy skirmish at least a year or two off... makes me feel a little better staying in on this one.
I had the exact same though Aza hahaha. I'm definitely open to getting both - this will need to be better than it is to keep the monies though. What will really sell it for me will be in depth integration into the Mantica setting, usability with all the KoW armies and so on. I'll need to watch the gameplay before I confirm it too ofc... pretty slack in that regard. The solo/co-op decks already help a lot - I don't think SW has that, so that alone might keep me in here.
Tripling the chests up to 6 is much more like it, but yeah could probably use another couple barrels, and I still think it needs one or two more other large things like in the HQ originals.
Yeah like a $5k or $10k "Armoury stretch goal" which adds weapon racks, an open top barrel with swords sticking out, an anvil or sharpening wheel, etc, or an "Alchemists" goal which adds an alchemist's desk , some shelves with potions on them, a cauldron, etc
@Azaraelx - I can of course tell the difference in paint quality - so I need to see a properly presented set of mythical lairs sets and I may change my opinion. Otherwise those sets are, for the most part, filled out with extra bits more suitable for a dolls house.
From my point of view the value is there - but I know others disagree which is fair enough.
02Laney wrote: @Azaraelx - I can of course tell the difference in paint quality - so I need to see a properly presented set of mythical lairs sets and I may change my opinion. Otherwise those sets are, for the most part, filled out with extra bits more suitable for a dolls house.
From my point of view the value is there - but I know others disagree which is fair enough.
Well, you were calling them terrible quality, and they clearly are not. The paint may be terrible, but the quality? Take another look at any one of those sets and tell me they look like they're "terrible quality" castings. The first one isn't hampered by especially bad paint, and isn't "filled out" with "dolls house" details, either.
This one has far more value in it than Mantic's first attempt in terms of dungeon furniture, even completely discounting the "dollhouse" items.
Can I just make a comment about this conversation: what a great time for the tabletop wargaming market when we can afford to be picky about dungeon furniture.
The irony is if we were having this conversation 25 years ago there was again a massive range of cheap lead and resin furniture from Citadel and co The change in material prices and 'focusing' of ranges led to the point where all this is very novel again. 'Course the quality is higher now (I love the old moondragon stuff, and there is nothing like t today, but it doesn't look 'realistic').
Automatically Appended Next Post: My suggestion on the comments for 'stuff you would like to see'.
"Mantic you need to stand out from the crowd.
Essential
Number 1 - and I don't know if it is met yet - you need a roleplay system. Something 'quest, advanced heroquest and co did very well. As well as the set piece dungeons which should scale to party power level, there should be a way of generating random quests, low power level of rewards and advancement but more puzzling than threat of death, done in an evening (or a massive number of scenarios online...). So if the party isn't questing after the overlord they can go kick in the door of a Goblin burrow for a couple of hours gaming in the evening. Low rewards, low threat, throw away evening game.
Then the nice to have stuff
2 - Henchmen. Porters, men at arms, hangers on, brave sir Robins minstrels or other party rations. Colour for the party with limited in game impact, but great character.
3 - Dungeons that come alive. Themed rooms of furniture (do deals with other companies), ideas for 3d dungeons, monstrous creature lairs, dungeons with cells, 3d traps. Really make the game pop so if someone sees it they don't think card mat but engaging spectacle.
4 - 'Good' kingdoms. Hitting Orcs and undead is old news. Who wouldn't want to go into an Elf lair, kick them in the shins and steal their jewels? Or spring prisoners from a human kingdom prison?
NTRabbit wrote: Yeah like a $5k or $10k "Armoury stretch goal" which adds weapon racks, an open top barrel with swords sticking out, an anvil or sharpening wheel, etc, or an "Alchemists" goal which adds an alchemist's desk , some shelves with potions on them, a cauldron, etc
That would be awesome, as would a 'secret passages' stretch goal with a few different potential secret passage spots (fireplace, another book shelf, tomb).
I also think Mantic really needs to do some low level basic gribblies to mix things up. Spiders and things like that, which may not actually be part of a KoW army, but which inhabit the dungeons.
@Chris - you are spot on here, they do need to stand out and they may not be yet - but they can in the end.
@ Azazelx - Like I said, if I saw a better set of pictures I may change my mind, however I'm still not seeing how they are markedly better deal. The bar and big barrel only have one use, leaving you with the tables and the fireplace (the chairs just look funny to me, sorry). Either way, for me, it is close call value wise. I do think mantic can do more and probably will!
The second set had exotic statues and water. CLEAR plastic over blue! Screw you, 24 hour water effects cure time!
The traps are even better (except for the flames!) :
I can't find a *bleeping* address to WizKids to suggest re-introducing the traps and artifacts sets to their new D&D figures line! While most of us can paint better than the prepainted figures, most of these WizKids terrain pieces look great on the table. Picking up a pack (or two!) at the FLGS or OLGS is certainly easier and less expensive than hunting down miniature sellers and paying shipping fees for their unpainted hobby miniature counterparts. AFAIK, suggestions@wizkids.com only gets their web services.
Hm, that gives me a thought. They already sell sprues of Renedra barrels within the KoW Ogre Army for that exploding cart thing. They could offer them as an add-on here pretty easily.
Ah, Mage Knight Dungeons... got a lot of stuff for that game, it was pretty great as far as dungeon crawlers go. The game was much better than regular mage knight and had little treasure chests with dials on the inside to randomize the contents.
Shame it got dumped pretty quickly by wizkids, just another clix game thrown aside... stupid CCG-style business model.
I own just about all things Mage Knight Dungeons. I picked it all up on the cheap after 2.0 crashed and burned and people were selling off their collections.
It really was a cool game, and I don't understand why they haven't tried bringing back the concept with any of the Clix stuff.
GrimDork wrote: Hmm, suggest it in the comments? Certainly sounds like a good idea.
If they can get the volume of barrels needed for fulfillment, isn't one of the main catches with Renedra that they're usually super booked up?
It's one of the excuses commonly given, though I've heard that it's bollocks and that Renedra are simply expensive. Though they are also quality. Anyway, running a couple thousand sprues of their existing barrels if need be shouldn't be a problem, given a year's lead time and no actual work to do besides inject the moulds with brown plastic...
Hey, I'm with you. If they can be convinced to do it, then I'm all for barrel add-ons. Barrels will probably be the weakest link in the BS fantasy terrain chain.
I'm neither here nor their on the dungeon furnishings. What I'm excited about is the possibility of finally being able to build a unit of two of sniffs for my Orcs.
And with the latest update, they finally get to the point where the $100 pledge starts to look reasonable to me, and the $25 expack is almost complete. (can't repost it right now - on a tablet)
The expansion minis are nice, but without buying the expansion as well, they're not of much use for anything other than self-built dungeons.. I'm still unsure about this one and might just get it next year when cash isn't so tight... or I might sell off some wave 2 deadzone and Mars Attacks extras to pay for it.
Looks like they're going for $250k to fund each expansion with a few extras and new heroes thrown in along the way.
Could work out quite nicely if we get another 2 expansions funded and hit $1m. The pledge total is ticking away nicely, no sub-$10k days so far and it looks like a slow increase to $600k and then another $200-$300k in the final surge is quite likely. The backer count is the main thing a KS needs and its very good with this one, only need another 1000 before its on track to beat Deadzone for backer count.
Azazelx wrote: And with the latest update, they finally get to the point where the $100 pledge starts to look reasonable to me, and the $25 expack is almost complete. (can't repost it right now - on a tablet)
Yeah, the additional figs just made me want the add-on, _especially_ if the card tiles are nice.
Even if the whole game blows, I'll still have a giant pile of card tiles and dungeon monsters to play Tunnels & Trolls with.
scarletsquig wrote: The expansion minis are nice, but without buying the expansion as well, they're not of much use for anything other than self-built dungeons.. I'm still unsure about this one and might just get it next year when cash isn't so tight... or I might sell off some wave 2 deadzone and Mars Attacks extras to pay for it.
Looks like they're going for $250k to fund each expansion with a few extras and new heroes thrown in along the way.
Could work out quite nicely if we get another 2 expansions funded and hit $1m. The pledge total is ticking away nicely, no sub-$10k days so far and it looks like a slow increase to $600k and then another $200-$300k in the final surge is quite likely. The backer count is the main thing a KS needs and its very good with this one, only need another 1000 before its on track to beat Deadzone for backer count.
I noticed that too. Good days and less good, but fairly consistent through the campaign (I think this is because even though there's been 'fake' stretches, almost every stretch has added something to the core game).
I think that this should definitely get a boost if Mantic opens up packs of 10 minis for $15 or so (also same deal for 3 monstrous infantry). That would get in people wanting skeleton archers, orc sniffs, etc..
although Im currently pledged, im just not certain about the figures. having seen some images of the mars attack stuff they are not great fine for board game pieces but Im predominatly a modeler and im just not certain I will be happy with these.
having just seen some of the models from the mars attacks box, I'm not to sure about the quality of these models now.
I am going to keep an eye on it, as I have an early bird, but I really wanted something to replace warhammer quest, but not at descent levels of quality.
Yes some shocking moddling decisions on some of the models - that Martian arm is oft voted.
On a different note why has Reaper never done a bones dungeon crawler KS? They have a big range of heroes and villains, generic dungeon beasties, scenary, Orcoid denizens and undead in habitants, big bad end monsters, even the stuff for a series of fishy caverns. Slap a good set of rules on and some card terrain that could even become bonesium by the end and how could it not be a winner?
And tactics wise, if they had put the target at $500,000 with all the stretch goals included up to that total - better or worse in terms of impact? bigger buzz right off the bat? Wouldn't make the KS front page so easily but I don't think I have ever gone there 'cept by accident.
Must confese, D&D is something I have never played, nor any of its spin offs, though I did consider getting some of their pre-paints at one point...
Automatically Appended Next Post: INteresting videos. Still, I get they want to be a mini company, still they have cav - but why not even a partnership with a company that makes the dungeon bit. Essentially a package of bones models rather than those single packs...
I know there was a Lost Dungeon (?) KS for dungeon crawl that used Bones miniatures. Reaper also teams up with companies to make their own miniatures, such as Torn Armor. They're also releasing a CAV KS. During the Bones KS, Swords and Sorcery gave away a PDF of their ruleset.
Most gamers won't pay for rules development (Mantic's rules are free), and game companies use rules to drive miniatures sales. Mebbe Reaper doesn't see the need for this, since RPG'ers and miniature painters will buy their products without their rules development. (Me, I'd like to see them (and other paint companies) put out Learn to Paint Kits aimed at the non-fantasy miniatures markets.)
That is an interesting idea - deliberately trying to develop a game to use avid KS's dwarvenforge (yes, would have got it if the shipping wasn't comparable to flying over myself) and Reaper stuff. Not surprised it failed though (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/burningyeti/the-lost-dungeons-of-xon-pathfinder-compatible-emo) as how many people would have got both and not have had a reason to.
Still seems odd Reaper doesn't do sets of dungeon stuff, rather than the single model sales they like.
Oh my God - on the note of a tidal wave of 'crawlers, now would be a bizarrely appropriate time for GW to strike with a black box of WHQ! Luckily they have no ability to do that sort of thing
Azazelx wrote: And with the latest update, they finally get to the point where the $100 pledge starts to look reasonable to me, and the $25 expack is almost complete. (can't repost it right now - on a tablet)
Yeah, the additional figs just made me want the add-on, _especially_ if the card tiles are nice.
Even if the whole game blows, I'll still have a giant pile of card tiles and dungeon monsters to play Tunnels & Trolls with.
Yup. Tunnels & Trolls.
I found a pile of my (brother's) old T&T stuff on the weekend. It was my first RPG. Now roll a truckload of dice!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cyphertheory wrote: having just seen some of the models from the mars attacks box, I'm not to sure about the quality of these models now.
I am going to keep an eye on it, as I have an early bird, but I really wanted something to replace warhammer quest, but not at descent levels of quality.
Remember guys - boardgame figures, not "proper" miniatures. That's one reason I've been such a conservative with my (personal) valuation of the contents. The stuff we've been shown are resin masters, etc - not production PVC. Expect detail on the level of MA or Bones, etc - Know what to expect going in, and you won't be disappointed.
Remember guys - boardgame figures, not "proper" miniatures. That's one reason I've been such a conservative with my (personal) valuation of the contents. The stuff we've been shown are resin masters, etc - not production PVC. Expect detail on the level of MA or Bones, etc - Know what to expect going in, and you won't be disappointed.
This is probably why I'll drop out later on; I have boardgame figures for these tropes already, and plenty of wargames mini's to make up for it. I know this is mostly a boardgame but one of the things I liked about the Dwarf Kings Quest (and HeroQuest) was the quality of the figures. If these are closer to Bones quality then there's going to have to be a lot in it for me to justify paying this money a year out.
Same with the resin collectors figures; those are going to be restic aren't they, and not the hard resin we're used to for collectors edition stuff?
although you never know if Mantic will decide to change material later on like the restic dreadball stuff that ended up in metal for some of us, or the deadzone resin strider that became restic
(although they would always give you a full refund if you objected to the change)
If it was definitely hand poured resin I'd probably stay in for a set or 2, but I've got enough painting projects already to worry about softer materials.
Herzlos wrote: I know this is mostly a boardgame but one of the things I liked about the Dwarf Kings Quest (and HeroQuest) was the quality of the figures. If these are closer to Bones quality then there's going to have to be a lot in it for me to justify paying this money a year out.
Huh, do you really consider Bones to be of such low quality? I agree that they kind of look so-so when unpainted, but once you get paint on them I think they're pretty decent. Certainly better than most boardgame pieces I would say, and to me they seem to have more depth and detail than the old HeroQuest minis. I'm genuinely curious as I don't own any previous Mantic stuff, so have been unsure what quality level to expect. Bones I consider to be pretty good, and when I hear boardgame quality I'm thinking a lot worse.
EDIT: Here are some Bones I painted, BTW. Now I'm by no means a masterful painter, but I think these work well as gaming pieces:
I had high hopes for this before the KS started, but I was looking for a dungeon crawl game similar to Advanced Heroquest, not Space Hulk The Fantasy Version.
I'm not too keen on the miniatures, I prefer quality over quantity but this doesn't seem like either.
I guess I will have to keep on waiting for the spiritual successor to AHQ! Maybe one day GW will release an updated Warhammer Quest...
Herzlos wrote: I know this is mostly a boardgame but one of the things I liked about the Dwarf Kings Quest (and HeroQuest) was the quality of the figures. If these are closer to Bones quality then there's going to have to be a lot in it for me to justify paying this money a year out.
Huh, do you really consider Bones to be of such low quality? I agree that they kind of look so-so when unpainted, but once you get paint on them I think they're pretty decent. Certainly better than most boardgame pieces I would say, and to me they seem to have more depth and detail than the old HeroQuest minis. I'm genuinely curious as I don't own any previous Mantic stuff, so have been unsure what quality level to expect. Bones I consider to be pretty good, and when I hear boardgame quality I'm thinking a lot worse.
EDIT: Here are some Bones I painted, BTW. Now I'm by no means a masterful painter, but I think these work well as gaming pieces:
Well said about Bones, which are really good for what they are meant to be, namely figures representing characters and creatures in mainly RPGs. And by the way this is a really nice and clean painting you have done on those minis! There is a general rule about Bones and their level of detail: The bigger the miniature is the better!
I've only got one bones mini, but he doesn't look bad at all, and neither have the other bones I've seen. Nice paint jobs.
I really don't think the MA minis look bad either as a whole. I'm fine with all of the soldiers, and the only martian I don't like is the guy with the filled-in arm. The detail on some of the human faces is definitely softer than I'd like, but they are ridiculously tiny. People talk about infinity minis being small/skinny, and these faces are averaging a bit smaller than those. Eva is the cut-off for me, Brandi and Ashley I probably wouldn't have bought off the rack if I could see their faces. The rest so far seem fine. To me, I realize other people will have had their own expectations.
I'm pretty excited to see what comes after the extra trolls. Hopefully the boss, maybe for 450k? I'd like to see this goal get knocked out, then another expansion.. but maybe something cool inbetween to keep people happy.
Herzlos wrote: I know this is mostly a boardgame but one of the things I liked about the Dwarf Kings Quest (and HeroQuest) was the quality of the figures. If these are closer to Bones quality then there's going to have to be a lot in it for me to justify paying this money a year out.
Huh, do you really consider Bones to be of such low quality? I agree that they kind of look so-so when unpainted, but once you get paint on them I think they're pretty decent. Certainly better than most boardgame pieces I would say, and to me they seem to have more depth and detail than the old HeroQuest minis. I'm genuinely curious as I don't own any previous Mantic stuff, so have been unsure what quality level to expect. Bones I consider to be pretty good, and when I hear boardgame quality I'm thinking a lot worse.
EDIT: Here are some Bones I painted, BTW. Now I'm by no means a masterful painter, but I think these work well as gaming pieces:
I went in pretty big for the first Bones Kickstarter so I've dealt with lots of them and for the price they are great, especially the big figures, but the detail on some of them is pretty soft (could just be bad casts I guess). Compared to most of the other mini's I've got (polystyrene, pewter or hard resin) the quality is pretty poor. It's maybe unfair since I'm comparing to mini's costing 2-20x as much, but since I'm completely overloaded on stuff to paint I can choose to be fussy. I have to admit that I haven't actually painted any of them yet; by the time the KS shipped I'd changed focus in terms of gaming so had no use for most of it and sold 90% of it off. I'll try and get a couple done before this KS finishes though; I was looking for a few mini's to take away for the weekend to paint in my down time.
I'm not saying they won't be great gaming pieces though, just that I'm used to sharper materials, so the painting/hobby value isn't there for me. I'll stay in until nearer the end to see if it'll win me over as purely a board game.
Herzlos wrote: I went in pretty big for the first Bones Kickstarter so I've dealt with lots of them and for the price they are great, especially the big figures, but the detail on some of them is pretty soft (could just be bad casts I guess). Compared to most of the other mini's I've got (polystyrene, pewter or hard resin) the quality is pretty poor. It's maybe unfair since I'm comparing to mini's costing 2-20x as much, but since I'm completely overloaded on stuff to paint I can choose to be fussy. I have to admit that I haven't actually painted any of them yet; by the time the KS shipped I'd changed focus in terms of gaming so had no use for most of it and sold 90% of it off. I'll try and get a couple done before this KS finishes though; I was looking for a few mini's to take away for the weekend to paint in my down time.
I'm not saying they won't be great gaming pieces though, just that I'm used to sharper materials.
Alright, cool, I hear you. I'm a lot pickier with my collecting and painting these days too, having gone in deep on Kickstarters from Red Box Games, Mierce and AntiMatter (to name just a few), but I still think Bones are alright. As I said, unpainted I did think they looked kind of blobby and soft, but once I got some primer on them and had moved them to a nice base I liked them a lot more. There were a couple pieces in the Vampire pledge that were outright bad though. Hmmm, I guess comparisons are kind of hard; some of the Mars Attacks pieces are looking so-so to me now, but I guess that could also change when paint is applied.
Anyway, sorry about the OT; just wanted to get a handle on the quality levels being discussed!
My main point isn;t to slag off Bones or PVC Boardgame figures (I've got plenty of each, and painted a fair few of each as well) but to highlight that the figures on offer here aren't our traditional wargames-style figures in plastic or resin or metal or even restic, but boardgame style figures - so people know what they're buying into (and cheerleading for).
I've probably come at the KS from the wrong perspective; I was expecting Dwarf Kings hold style minis (polystrene) rather than the coloured plastic or restic, which I've no direct experience of but have heard a lot of complaints about soft detail. But this is a board game, not a wargame.
Azazelx wrote: And with the latest update, they finally get to the point where the $100 pledge starts to look reasonable to me, and the $25 expack is almost complete. (can't repost it right now - on a tablet)
Yeah, the additional figs just made me want the add-on, _especially_ if the card tiles are nice.
Even if the whole game blows, I'll still have a giant pile of card tiles and dungeon monsters to play Tunnels & Trolls with.
Yup. Tunnels & Trolls.
I found a pile of my (brother's) old T&T stuff on the weekend. It was my first RPG. Now roll a truckload of dice!
My second. Our first was when my mom bought my brother D&D basic red box (3rd edition) from B. Dalton in 1988-ish. Polyhedral dice? Mind=blown.
I was jealous he owned D&D so on the second or third trip to the FLGS I spent my lawnmowing money on Tunnels & Trolls in the used game section. Very fond memories of spending my hard earned dollars on Ral Partha lead minis back when they were $1.25, and I wrote an entire adventure called "Umberhulk Caverns" because I bought an Umberhulk figure.
T&T is still a good system if you completely excise the combat rules and instead use saving rolls for combat as well (plus makes it way more of a unified system)
Azazelx wrote: My main point isn;t to slag off Bones or PVC Boardgame figures (I've got plenty of each, and painted a fair few of each as well) but to highlight that the figures on offer here aren't our traditional wargames-style figures in plastic or resin or metal or even restic, but boardgame style figures - so people know what they're buying into (and cheerleading for).
This is the main reason I find the deal to be lacking. Most big box board games come with tons of minis. Board game minis should flow like water out of the box. Forty-something board game minis for a hundred bucks is not a bargain at all.
Yeah I want to be excited about this KS, but I'm struggling. And now I'm mostly confused: what exactly are these orcs going to look like? Because a lot of this concept art is looking very static.
In terms of value, if these were all metal or resin, cool. If boardgame plastic...then I'm still on the fence.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I had high hopes for this before the KS started, but I was looking for a dungeon crawl game similar to Advanced Heroquest, not Space Hulk The Fantasy Version.
I guess I will have to keep on waiting for the spiritual successor to AHQ! Maybe one day GW will release an updated Warhammer Quest...
Spot on! For me tactical dungeon combat is done very well by the DKH series. But I do remember the old AHQ, and lighter WHQ, for being the closest I come to doing a roleplay game. I think Jake is a great designer, but he himself admits he doesn't like these sorts of games, so is giving us RPG tactics
I don't want a complex RPG, I have got DKH, in the middle for me is what you talk about. Taking a character through development with the medium of quests involving combat. Give me a nice fast combat system where I can make tactical choices, an intricate puzzle in the form of a dungeon/arena/defined area, stuff that I can use to advance and have improvements as a result of performance, make it in my interests to work with others but not compulsory and then give me enough flavour outside of the quest to care (mini games in places like the tavern, charts for equipment, random events, etc).
Azazelx wrote: Yeah, the DKH models were re-used KoW sprues. Not a good look for boardgames or boardgamers, though. I never even finished assembling mine .
Yes. The sprues bar the dwarves are great (I got a DKH 'mega' set in Dark Sphere when they were flogging all the old Mantic stock - DKH, DKH orcs and elves, the 3rd expansion, the monster pack). The skellies are probably the best, but a bugger to clean if you are fanatical about mould lines. Took me a week of spare time to clean and assemble the Dwarves and skeletons in unique poses (another obsession I have...).
Random note, they should be putting up tutorials on their website to support this. Stuff like how to make a weapons rack from the spare bits on your skeleton sprue, etc etc. Leveraging existing models to support this.
Was looking forward to this KS, but the value just isn't there for me, and looking at those Mars Attacks production figures, their quality and value proposition are going in the wrong direction. Looks to me like they are trying to sell board game quality figures at wargaming quality figure pricing.
willb2064 wrote: Was looking forward to this KS, but the value just isn't there for me, and looking at those Mars Attacks production figures, their quality and value proposition are going in the wrong direction. Looks to me like they are trying to sell board game quality figures at wargaming quality figure pricing.
I almost expect to see bags of the Mars Attacks figures along with other toy soldiers at Walmart and the Dollar Store. They are pretty cool, for toy plastic army men and aliens.
willb2064 wrote: Looks to me like they are trying to sell board game quality figures at wargaming quality figure pricing.
Except they're not selling board game figures, they're selling a board game
That is a mighty heavy bucket of water to carry to claim that when one buys a board game from a miniatures company, that you are not buying miniatures and basically have no right to think critically about the miniatures or the associated costs of them. For many, the prices and 'value' is based upon the quality and quantity of the miniatures because if a game sucks and the rules are bad or unfun, at least you have miniatures which can be used elsewhere.
And when you are the only 'mars attacks' miniatures on the market, people interested in the designs will forgive material flaws because the alternative to getting those figures is 'nothing'. When you are going to do generic dungeon miniatures, if your quality is lacking, material sucks, or price is too high, people can buy the rules PDF to play your game and buy literally hundreds of better sculpted, better cast, better material stand-ins on the market, many of which for the same cost or cheaper. When people have choice, they will be comparing value.
So to say people can't complain or even judge the value of the figures because 'it is a board game' which is sold by a miniatures company is disingenuous water carrying. The last thing you want to do is tell a large portion of your customer-base which are serious miniature collectors 'It is a board game... you can't judge the quality of the figures."
NTRabbit wrote: "It is a board game, judge the figures as board game figures. Whiny wargamers please pay special attention to this before mentioning Mierce again"
Seems fair to me
Then if we judge them as 'board game figures' then why does the cost of the game seem to have quantities which seem to compare to HIPS and wargaming/resin miniatures?
If people judge them as 'board game' then they can easily figure out there are hundreds of alternative miniatures which can meet the quality and price elsewhere.
It has the price of a boardgame to me, at least in all the boardgame stores I've been to. Example, the Descent game everyone keeps mentioning is $100 at my FLGS, and the expansions are all either $50 or $85. Dungeons & Dragons Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft are $110.
Did you just not realize that the games you mentioned at the same price point each have about twice as many minis? And we can buy them right now and have them right now.
NTRabbit wrote: It has the price of a boardgame to me, at least in all the boardgame stores I've been to. Example, the Descent game everyone keeps mentioning is $100 at my FLGS, and the expansions are all either $50 or $85. Dungeons & Dragons Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft are $110.
Whiny is as whiny does.
And being barley equivalent to full MSRP items available right now is the problem. Especially since many of the people can get it for 30% off MSRP. Why should anyone pledge now instead of wait for retail? Either what is barley equivalent to 100$ retail now will drastically increase in cost or decrease in models which makes it a non-starter at retail, or they will release it for 50$ at retail and add-on packs which means you could get close to the 100$ pledge at retail which means there is no reason not to wait for the models quality and sculpts to be finished.
Why should people give 100$ now for something which is questionable quality, unseen sculpts, no guarantee of good rules and the value now is not better than retail for competing products which means if mantic pumps the MSRP up for retail it will be suicide? It seems I see mantic products in the bargain bin before people even receive their KS pledges. Happened with Dreadball, KoW and Deadzone.
People can form their own opinions on what their time is worth and the value of waiting for a KS, cleaning models or having models of unacceptable sculpts and materials is worth to them. Judging the uality and value of miniatures even if they are 'board game' is totally reasonable. To try to claim they can't and shouldn't be judged as miniatures because reasons is stupid.
Drizzt says 42 minis, Descent doesn't say how many on the store site, DS currently has 28 in what I assume is the retail box but backers get a current total of 53, and that's with the project still ongoing.
There's nothing stopping you from buying what's available right now instead, but if everyone took that attitude there'd be almost nothing coming out of kickstarter. Seems a bit of a simple minded attitude to take in a system where you have a month to stay in or pull out and don't get billed until the end.
Edit:: Seems like the cardinal rule of "ignore every nkelsch post in a Mantic thread" still holds true, foolish me for answering
NTRabbit wrote: It has the price of a boardgame to me, at least in all the boardgame stores I've been to. Example, the Descent game everyone keeps mentioning is $100 at my FLGS, and the expansions are all either $50 or $85. Dungeons & Dragons Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft are $110.
Whiny is as whiny does.
Man you guys really do get shafted on prices in Australia. US MSRP for Descent is around $80 and Drizzt and Ravenloft are $65.
NTRabbit wrote: Drizzt says 42 minis, Descent doesn't say how many on the store site, DS currently has 28 in what I assume is the retail box but backers get a current total of 53, and that's with the project still ongoing.
There's nothing stopping you from buying what's available right now instead, but if everyone took that attitude there'd be almost nothing coming out of kickstarter. Seems a bit of a simple minded attitude to take in a system where you have a month to stay in or pull out and don't get billed until the end.
Edit:: Seems like the cardinal rule of "ignore every nkelsch post in a Mantic thread" still holds true, foolish me for answering
Stop carrying water and shouting down everyone who has valid questions or concerns about the KS then. If you allowed people to actually hold opinions about value and miniature quality opposed to trying to silence them, I wouldn't need to call you out on your behavior.
NTRabbit wrote: It has the price of a boardgame to me, at least in all the boardgame stores I've been to. Example, the Descent game everyone keeps mentioning is $100 at my FLGS, and the expansions are all either $50 or $85. Dungeons & Dragons Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft are $110.
Whiny is as whiny does.
Man you guys really do get shafted on prices in Australia. US MSRP for Descent is around $80 and Drizzt and Ravenloft are $65.
At least with boardgames they have shipping and import costs to cover, though surely not that much per unit. From my point of view at least Dungeon Saga fits right in pricewise, but not owning anything other than the original HeroQuest I can't compare component quality. Photos of Mars Attacks look like good quality board game minis, so if they meet that standard there's no complaints from me.
NTRabbit wrote: Descent doesn't say how many on the store site
For completeness: 46 models; 8 heroes and 38 monsters. Of those, 8 monsters (the elementals, ettins, shadow dragons and merriods) are fairly sizable figures well larger than a typical humanoid.
Not speaking to quality of any of that or DS, just putting that out there for people who are curious what the comparison looks like.
$460,000 BONUS HERO – Hratth Flamespitter, Salamander FighterSalamanders are hot-blooded creatures in the most literal sense, their very bodies emitting scalding vapours and their weapons channelling fiery energies with which to smite their foes. Hratth is no exception, having a fiery temperament to match his given name. His brood slaughtered in a great battle, Hratth was captured and used as a gladiatorial slave for the entertainment of a cruel master for many years. Winning his freedom, he found that he could not return to his home and so made a life doing the only thing he knows how to do – fight. As a mercenary, he is a tricky proposition – undeniably effective as a fighter but prone to lose his temper with often unpredictable results. It is a testament to the former that so many choose to risk the latter.
1.92$ a mini: Dungeon Saga Kickstarter Pledge with bonus figures - 100$: 12 heroes, 40 monsters
And look what appears in the core box:
Dungeon Saga Core box: 7 Heroes, 22 monsters
If this is released for anywhere over 50$ MSRP, it will be an unsustainable mess. If that reached retail at 100$ that would be a crime.
The 'value' is simply bad compared to retail alternatives right now. And bad/boring looking rules combined with non-existing rules and lots of sight-unseen sculpts and a questionable material and process after seeing the lack of quality on Mars Attacks, there are some legitimate questions. Most people expect 30-40% discount from retail for backing the KS, not 80% markup.
I wonder when we'll see them proper in Kings of War then?
I like the concept of today's add ons. What would have been cool would have been for Mantic to include a PDF of the rules for the associated DKH game if you buy the figure pack. Maybe they did and I just didn't notice.
Hopefully once they open up a second or third expansion, and follow the pattern of adding a bonus figure or two in to the base game as well as the expansion, we can finally see the value arguments begin to taper off.
Then we can argue over the rules instead. Especially those advanced rules, because who knows what's going to end up in there.
Salamanders are part of the Forces of Nature army, as their own unit. I dunno what that means for them as a race, but probably it at least somewhat implies they won't be getting their own list at this point. Who knows, maybe popularity will take them there. Nature list looks cool, someone linked it in the comments there's a lot of potential to convert it, till they do KoW 2.0.
Probably gonna be a somewhat sower 12k to get the salamander, and then my guess is the next expansion will be the next, or next next goal to hit 500k. But it'll be small, as momentum is lost it'll be important to maintain enthusiasm so the project can dig in and rise up with the last 2-3 days curve, finishing out the expansion hopefully. At least we shouldn't see any large-scale backsliding since there's no bloodshed on the battlefield pledges that are camped and soon to be dropped
If the advanced rules for this are anything like deadzone, we'll be looking at a lot of paragraphs or single-page handling of the concepts. The DZ card deck is pretty simple, mostly there's a priority queue for the AI player's figures and the deck just tells you which one to move next. Extra mats, multiplayer, or extra points games are all handled in a few pages. Hopefully they do something more of a bestiary and character generation with at least a few options for them though.
The comparison of a current product e.g. Descent product(s) for $100 should be against the total of pledge contents at $100 rather than the base game only. Then you have a better like for like comparison.
Also, where does the assumption that the base game will retail at $100 come from? I'm pledging for what is shown and would be amazed if the base game retails at $100 (particularly given the expansion price). The graphic on the front page has the various sub-divisions shown i.e. base game 29 minis currently, advanced rules pack, evil dead booster 9 minis, green menace booster 9 minis, 3d furniture, plus 5 bonus minis (52 minis currently and likely to rise - next stretch soon). Put in $25 more and you're on 71 minis. Quality of the minis is a valid concern - mini count seems to be less of an issue for what appear to be similar boardgame type minis.
Hmm. These add-on prices look pretty good. What do you guys think? It's about the same price as the KoW: Two-Player Battle set, which I actually like because I prefer orcs and undead. May just go for these and the resin skull counters. Any comments?
I haven't looked at the KoW prices lately, but the undead and elves are definitely worth at least a dollar a piece, so if I needed more of either I would be highly considering those myself.
I went into this project for $200 (plus shipping) in anticipation of being able to add on some cool stuff. This update finally offers some-- I really don't need any more dice, and while the counters are nice, one set should be more than enough. I may finally get to try out some Mantic skeletons!
Yeah, thought the price for the currently available sprues was a bit too much. Factor in the value of having models that exist paid for a year in advance at least. And they aren't exactly pricey on ebay...
Yeah, and they're cheaper. Granted, I'm not taking 3rd part r/etailers in mind with that... but you're getting 12 skeletons and 10 revenants, 20 of either would be 25 bucks off the rack, and then you get 7 dwarfs to boot. And in just the numbers for ye olde revamped DKH scenarios. Sure, not everyone needs these, but I don't think they're a bad deal at all.
Gaining a surprising amount of ground towards that Salamander, somebody must be finding the add-ons (or just the game itself) worth picking up, which is awesome. I'm really digging the curve on this project.
willb2064 wrote: Was looking forward to this KS, but the value just isn't there for me, and looking at those Mars Attacks production figures, their quality and value proposition are going in the wrong direction. Looks to me like they are trying to sell board game quality figures at wargaming quality figure pricing.
/nods sagely.
The sculpts look nice, but can you imagine the bendage on those skeletons, their limbs and weapons? I've just painted 6 bones skeleton archers, so I can.
nkelsch wrote: The 'value' is simply bad compared to retail alternatives right now. And bad/boring looking rules combined with non-existing rules and lots of sight-unseen sculpts and a questionable material and process after seeing the lack of quality on Mars Attacks, there are some legitimate questions. Most people expect 30-40% discount from retail for backing the KS, not 80% markup.
Don't concur on the rules, but I do wonder what the intended retail of this thing is? They should stick the terrain in to differentiate from other box crawlers, they also need rules for models not in the box to encourage shopping. If they did this for £30-35 on the shelf that would be pretty impressive in terms of impulse buys, or presents. That less than some GW regiment sets...
For what the goal is I would expect it to be similar to the expansion - 18 models for $25 (1 per $1.39 in your calculation) - though it is still a shame there is no orc furniture in it. So quite a few models more to add to the core $100. Expansion probably an indication of retail price as well as Mantic KS's seem to mirror the discounted price you ultimately get online at retail. So a $30-35 expansion and $50-60 core game.
willb2064 wrote: Looks to me like they are trying to sell board game quality figures at wargaming quality figure pricing.
Except they're not selling board game figures, they're selling a board game
The KS main feature seems to be "look at all of these great miniatures" - and understandably so, since it doesn't appear to be a boardgame that's worth $100. It's also worth mentioning that it's clearly not a "normal" boardgame, but they're very much interested in the "miniatures boardgame" space occupied by games like WHQ, AHQ, Space Hulk, Descent, Dust Tactics, et al.
So they're not solely doing either - their product is designed to straddle that space, but if the materials are sub-par but priced as "normal" figures, that's where my old sparring partner Nkelsch and I come to agree again.
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NTRabbit wrote: It has the price of a boardgame to me, at least in all the boardgame stores I've been to. Example, the Descent game everyone keeps mentioning is $100 at my FLGS, and the expansions are all either $50 or $85. Dungeons & Dragons Legend of Drizzt and Castle Ravenloft are $110.
Whiny is as whiny does.
Buy this stuff online from Games Empire (Syd), Book Depository (UK) ozgameshop (UK). Still costs a little more than living in the US and getting a 30% retail discount and free shipping, but a hell of a lot better than buying from local retailers. (unfortunately).
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NTRabbit wrote: Drizzt says 42 minis, Descent doesn't say how many on the store site, DS currently has 28 in what I assume is the retail box but backers get a current total of 53, and that's with the project still ongoing.
Drizzt/Ashadalon/Ravenloft have 42-ish figures, but there are 3 of each mob sculpt, fewer heroes (but they're all cross-compatible between the three games), and the Bosses and Minibosses are pretty decently sized and nice sculpts in their own rights to boot. The Trolls in DKHS look good, but not nearly as impressive as the Dracoliche, Red Dragon, flesh golem, etc in the D&D games.
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judgedoug wrote: Mantic should include the Kings of War baby book with any order that has those add ons... muahaha... must spread KoW...
Bloody good idea - you should contact them with that.
That is a good idea about including the Kings of War rules, and I think they should just extend that to all of the add ons from their fantasy line. I've got the PDF copy somewhere, but having a physical copy will make me far more likely to actually sit down and play!
For the over all price of the game, if the quality is around that of the Bones figures, I think I'd be pretty content. Then again, I'm going in with board gaming in mind.
If we end up with another expansion or two as well, we could very well end up with another 10- 20+ models if the stretches follow a similar pattern, and that's not even counting whether you purchase the expansions or not.
I'm starting to wonder if that goblin and the ogre shaman might end up being purchasable mini bosses for next Wednesday.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: That is a good idea about including the Kings of War rules, and I think they should just extend that to all of the add ons from their fantasy line. I've got the PDF copy somewhere, but having a physical copy will make me far more likely to actually sit down and play!
For the over all price of the game, if the quality is around that of the Bones figures, I think I'd be pretty content. Then again, I'm going in with board gaming in mind.
If we end up with another expansion or two as well, we could very well end up with another 10- 20+ models if the stretches follow a similar pattern, and that's not even counting whether you purchase the expansions or not.
I'm starting to wonder if that goblin and the ogre shaman might end up being purchasable mini bosses for next Wednesday.
Bro,
I'll be dropping those couple of Dungeon levels in this one as well. So happens I still have a couple of Restic Dragons that need some love, as well as a gak load of gobbos, and odds and ends that need a home.
The overall scale is the thing, though at the end of the day.
To me, the showstoppers with a couple of the past projects was that the project managers DID NOT outright include in all honesty the scale of the figures. 25-28-32mm bled into each other and at the end of the season, when your expecting a halfway decent amount of figures that you can use amongst each other go right to the closet because they are not even close.
I am 110% on board with adding in that rulebook, though. Then maybe a chapeter on how to go about creating your own stat lines for your own figures.
Buy this stuff online from Games Empire (Syd), Book Depository (UK) ozgameshop (UK). Still costs a little more than living in the US and getting a 30% retail discount and free shipping, but a hell of a lot better than buying from local retailers. (unfortunately).
I actually quoted Games Paradise, which isn't my FLGS so much as it's the discount online retailer I last used. The only actual FLGS I have is a Gamesworld, where the prices are higher like you'd expect. I was going to use Games Empire prices but they still have the end of financial year sale prices up front so... Milsims is cheaper too. Still finding it pretty comparable.
Games Empire is generally pretty decent with price, and their service is always top notch. Milsims is also pretty decent most of the time, but their service is ...shall we say variable - so I tend to use them less. Outside of those two though, we don't have any other decent options that I'm aware of for boardgames and such. Games Paradise had a pretty good sale on last year, but their service and speed were horrific, so me using them again fell into "not bloody likely" territory after that. (also, google the reviews of them if you want some fun reading!)
Yeah I bought my Dreadball stuff and a few other things from Games Empire (it's almost the only local Mantic stockist I know), and I've had a couple Secret Santa gifts sent to me from Milsims. Games Paradise is just the last store I used because they had the end of financial year sale, and they were the only one that had the game I wanted in stock. Took over a month to arrive and I had to email, but it arrived
Theres been a nice steady rise in pledges and cash each day so far with no quiet stretch. Should have a nice boost again with the next expansion as a stretch goal. Heres hoping its the abyssal set.
I'm quite pleased with the pacing, hopefully the next stretch (expansion?) and another well done add-on wednesday will drive the pledges on until the least couple of days, where we may see quite a jump when the 48 hour notice goes out.
By the way, if anyone wants more Goblins for their Dungeon Saga stuff- the Heresy Minis kickstarter has some rather nice looking stuff Click the sig banner!
I'm pretty tempted to drop the game from my pledge completely and just stick with the add-ones. Do we know if the bases will be available separately later?
Herzlos wrote: I'm pretty tempted to drop the game from my pledge completely and just stick with the add-ones. Do we know if the bases will be available separately later?
I expect the bases will be available for anybody looking to "DKQ" their Kings of War (or other) minis. And in any case, I'm sure there are alternative 25mm square 'cobbled' bases even if they don't.
Herzlos wrote: I'm pretty tempted to drop the game from my pledge completely and just stick with the add-ones. Do we know if the bases will be available separately later?
That, or you can buy the whole thing you've pledged for, keep the things you want and sell the rest on eBay?
Herzlos wrote: I'm pretty tempted to drop the game from my pledge completely and just stick with the add-ones. Do we know if the bases will be available separately later?
I expect the bases will be available for anybody looking to "DKQ" their Kings of War (or other) minis. And in any case, I'm sure there are alternative 25mm square 'cobbled' bases even if they don't.
Honestly, if the cobblestone base is not part of the boardgame pieces, then there is no need for the cobblestone bases to match. There are dozens of better stone bases on the market for cheaper as well. The only appeal of those cobblestone bases is if a majority of the dungeon saga figures have integrated cobblestone bases already and one is trying to match up some of the add-on KoW stuff.
Herzlos wrote: I'm pretty tempted to drop the game from my pledge completely and just stick with the add-ones. Do we know if the bases will be available separately later?
That, or you can buy the whole thing you've pledged for, keep the things you want and sell the rest on eBay?
That's always a very risky proposition, never mind with Mantic's stuff!
Herzlos wrote: I'm pretty tempted to drop the game from my pledge completely and just stick with the add-ones. Do we know if the bases will be available separately later?
I expect the bases will be available for anybody looking to "DKQ" their Kings of War (or other) minis. And in any case, I'm sure there are alternative 25mm square 'cobbled' bases even if they don't.
Honestly, if the cobblestone base is not part of the boardgame pieces, then there is no need for the cobblestone bases to match. There are dozens of better stone bases on the market for cheaper as well. The only appeal of those cobblestone bases is if a majority of the dungeon saga figures have integrated cobblestone bases already and one is trying to match up some of the add-on KoW stuff.
The cobble/flagstone bases for the boardgame figures have been confirmed for quite some time - every model will have them (although I'm less sure about the resin models). As they're pre-assembled, they will all be moulded together as one piece.
$475,000 BONUS HERO Arianya, Naiad Demonhunter
Naiads are vicious, ferocious elemental water spirits that dwell in and around bodies of water, embodied in tall, dexterous female form. They are constantly at odds with the other elementals, loathing fire above all else, not least in the case of Arianya who was roused to take on the mantle of demonhunter when her home glade was sacked by the denizens from the Abyss. Arianya employs a number of different methods to deal with demonkind, including her custom Triton-bombs.
plus
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.
For the price I would just get these at $0.30 each. Match the common dungeon designs out there more than cobblestones (why would you cobble a path underground?).
Since the models will presumably be the same material as the Mars Attacks ones, that means we can expect all of the weapons to be bent. Can anyone with the Mars Attacks models tell me if it is possible to fix the bent weapons? Can you heat then straighten them like with their restic or bones? Or are they just permanently bent?
Albino Squirrel wrote: Since the models will presumably be the same material as the Mars Attacks ones, that means we can expect all of the weapons to be bent. Can anyone with the Mars Attacks models tell me if it is possible to fix the bent weapons? Can you heat then straighten them like with their restic or bones? Or are they just permanently bent?
I've got some Loka figures in the same material, only had one slightly wonky arm on a skeleton, the hot water trick worked fine in fact it worked better than on the restic dz figures. In fact I much prefer it to restic for this sort of game.
The material is nowhere near as soft and bendy as is been made out here, it pretty darn tough can be scraped with a knife tho I'd use a saw to cut parts off for converting. The detail on the figures is fine, not as good as resin or hips but still pretty decent.
Can anyone postulate on what the difference will be in final product between the 'Coloured plastic' and 'resin' versions of the same miniatures?
Grimdork - Ronnie said that the plastic ones are done in the same way as Mars Attack. What's your final verdict on those, can you compare them to minis in different games (for example perhaps the D&D games, Descent, or Doom if you know of any of those?)
At this point I'm probably going to get a bunch of minis unless the rules for this game look outstanding (looking through the alpha download now) and wondering what the difference would be in quality between this..
to this I also included a quick alteration to the pose of one of the martians, changes his attitude a little, same sculpt presents a little differently.
And here's Eva with a quick tabletop paint job:
Spoiler:
Edwyn's sword was a bit tricky, I had to kind of use my fingernails to curl the sword the opposite way from it's inclination, while it was in hot water (just used hot water freshly pouring into the bathroom sink) and then dunk him into icewater. I kind of over-corrected so when it tried to slink back to it's original form, it ended up where I wanted it. I'll let you guys know if it reverts over night, but I think it'll stay put for now. Maybe if he gets left out in the sun it'll want to go back to shape, not sure.
I'm no expert at painting or anything, but the models look about the same quality as, say, any LOTR models I've had, which I imagine is a far closer scale than anything else.
Although, to be critical, it does seem to be a good idea to 'hot water treatment' everything, even if you think it's fine.
I had never known this, but apparently you need to wash almost everything? Even hard plastic? Even the injection molds for hard plastic have some kind or release? I'm starting to think this is correct because I've had liquid mask pull paint off of a well primed model (down to the base material). The things you learn..
You don't *need* to wash it compared to resin, but I still think it a good idea for hard plastic given how quick and easy it is to wash sprues. Can clean $100's worth in a couple minutes and it's worth it just to get packaging dust off if nothing else imo.
"quick tabletop" job... damn you good painters ; p
Yeah I think a hot water bath to repose minis is a good idea even if they're not bent since it's pretty easy and varies things up a bit which is always nice.
Hmm. Edwyns sword is better, but its very subtly curved back. Thicker martian limb seems more situated. I may try hotter water and perhaps a small clamp/clip splint before the ice water dip.
@yonan, its the dip, makes everything look better.
So is this Dungeon Seige Kickstarter worth backing?
Doesn't seem like it cause everyone keeps complaining about low mini count. But how is the actual game is it fun?
Zombicide and Super Dungeon Explore are big hits are board game nights so looking for something to supplement those as we will eventually get tired of those although Zombicide has another season to keep things fresh.
I will look into the D+D board games.
I went pretty deep into the Reaper Bones too because I love dragons and big monsters. Reaper bones I feel is a pretty good for what you pay. Sure its not the best but for what I paid I am happy with it. I still haven't painted even half that stuff yet. Lucky if I even have a 3rd done.
Game's fun, on the tactical side. It's *definitely* better than the D&D game systems. The issue is that Dakka is mostly seasoned hobby miniature gamers, while Dungeon Saga is an entry-level tactical boardgame, with advanced rules that haven't been shown to us yet. Jake Thorton has an extensive game bibliography, and there's no excuse not to research his previous games. OTOH, That doesn't mean you should back this KS -- a retail copy may be sufficient.
Yeah, back if you want the few exclusives, extra scenarios from the original DKH games, and neat kickstartery things like that. Oh, and extra boardgame plastic minis. Or sets of those minis in resin instead. They probably won't be selling the resin dudes after the fact.
But if you're after another ready-to-play boxed game that'll play out of the box and go right back in... you'll probably be fine looking it up at retail.
ced1106 wrote: Game's fun, on the tactical side. It's *definitely* better than the D&D game systems.
Unless you're talking about the older DKH games, no-one can say how fun this game is or is not or compare it to other games, since it doesn't exist yet. The older DKH games aren't dungeon exploration or co-op so they are a different genre to the D&D system games (Drizzt, Ashardalon, Ravenloft) but might be comparable to the D&D Dungeon Command series.
The alpha rules they released can't be evaluated or considered fun? Granted, the game does not yet exist in its final form, but a playable version is readily available to test and feedback. I assume this is what was being described.
I suppose, though I'm the kind who reserves judgement until the final rules are out. Still, I'll grant that he can certainly have an opinion or enjoy them.
Well, that's really good that you can give him that concession Azazelx!
Grimdork - thanks very much for posting those pics mate!
Gah (that's no-ones name, just a noise I've made!), really can't decide between this one and Heroquest. To make it more confusing, on the Gamezone site they describe the miniatures as being made out of 'resin plastic'..
GrimDork wrote: The alpha rules they released can't be evaluated or considered fun? Granted, the game does not yet exist in its final form, but a playable version is readily available to test and feedback. I assume this is what was being described.
I love the original DKH, but IMO what's been released so far for this tells me almost nothing that allows me to evaluate the rules for this game.
Without any previews of the advanced and RPG rules I probably don't need two hands to count the number of things I've learnt as someone who already has the DKH set.
For people new to the concept it's probably a lot more interesting though.
Azazelx wrote: I suppose, though I'm the kind who reserves judgement until the final rules are out. Still, I'll grant that he can certainly have an opinion or enjoy them.
One of a few then Azazel. I hate it when people moan about the rules when they've not been fully ironed out yet. Drives me crazy. Particularly with 40K
Gah (that's no-ones name, just a noise I've made!), really can't decide between this one and Heroquest. To make it more confusing, on the Gamezone site they describe the miniatures as being made out of 'resin plastic'..
Will have a read through the rules this evening..
Their resin plastic - to make matters even more confusing - is not PVC, like when Mantic was calling their PVC stuff "resin plastic" or "restic" - it is in fact a really high quality spin-castable plastic compound. I did a mini-review of the Dark Elves I bought from them.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/569616.page#6443518
Yep, wash everything... Obsessives even scrub them with a toothbrush...
Well if there are a market for these figures I would want to off-load the common poses as no way will I paint, say skeletons, when I have painted models already...
Pacific wrote: Gah (that's no-ones name, just a noise I've made!), really can't decide between this one and Heroquest. To make it more confusing, on the Gamezone site they describe the miniatures as being made out of 'resin plastic'..
Go research Jake Thorton, and you'll find a solid background in miniatures gaming. Go research Gamezone and you'll find no information other than an eight-sided cylindrical die. GZ has no experience in boardgame rules design. Unlike Mantic, GZ did not show any rules during their funding, and still haven't shown them. Freakin' A. This is supposed to be "HeroQuest", not a master's thesis or something. Rules from GZ should be upcoming sometime between September and October (suggesting that you're not receiving HeroQuest, but a game in name only), so maybe you'll get an idea of the rules before the DS funding is over. Or just wait until retail.
The D&D adventure system is *bleargh*. Not at all heroic, as the monsters get first initiative, and the game just keeps pounding on you, like some reverse grinding. It's one of those "oh, you shouldn't play by the mechanics, you should play it in the *spirit* of the game" games. OTOH, The miniatures are from the D&D miniatures line, and the tiles are great for 28mm adventuring. Wrath of Ashardalon has a fun adventure with villager AI, with each villager having a different AI to reflect their personality -- and you have to make sure they don't cause more problems than the monsters do! I would have *never* bought this game had I been on KS at the time. Value's not as good as KS, and the ruleset is poor.
My concern is Jake - who is a great games designer (though I think the decision on the limited range of dreadball stats was done when there wasn't the intention to have 8 million different teams - making it an 8+ point scale on an appropriate dice would have been far better...) - doesn't much like this style of game and is taking a fantastic tactical game (DKH is space hulk with less storm bolters) and trying to make it an RPG lite affair. Again the mechanics are limiting and my fear is you won't get after a while much differentiation between greeblies and character progression will have a lot of power 'jumps'.
True. BGG isn't entirely happy that the Advanced Rules haven't been shown yet, either, not that they're developed for the public yet. OTOH, Jake *has* designed games with "non-gamer" requirements: Foundry games hired him to make games to sell Foundry miniatures, and Mantic had him design DKH with the restriction of using existing sprues. So far, the DSKS isn't a must-buy, so I think waiting for retail is entirely reasonable. Part of participating in KS is risk, and the risk of a unsatisfactory ruleset is certainly part of it. Especially given that most boardgames can be easily purchased at the OLGS at a 30% discount, I don't pledge for non-miniature and sometimes miniature boardgames on KS. Mars Attacks base game retails for $75, and Miniature Market has the pre-order at $50. So your $100 pledge of a base game and $50 credit got you, for your $50 above base game from the OLGS... $50 credit.
ced1106 wrote: Especially given that most boardgames can be easily purchased at the OLGS at a 30% discount, I don't pledge for non-miniature and sometimes miniature boardgames on KS. Mars Attacks base game retails for $75, and Miniature Market has the pre-order at $50. So your $100 pledge of a base game and $50 credit got you, for your $50 above base game from the OLGS... $50 credit.
To be fair the credit went to items that are discounted? And the retail boxes won't have any of the KS exclusives? I did the $150 pledge for Mars Attacks so it's an insane amount of stuff I'm getting, plus I got a bunch of the Antenociti's Workshop resin stuff because, well, AW = best.
GrimDork wrote: Hmm. Edwyns sword is better, but its very subtly curved back. Thicker martian limb seems more situated. I may try hotter water and perhaps a small clamp/clip splint before the ice water dip.
Thank you for testing it out. Please keep us posted! With all the thin weapons on the Dungeon Saga figures, I am very interested in knowing how easy they will be to bend back into proper shape.
ced1106 wrote: True. BGG isn't entirely happy that the Advanced Rules haven't been shown yet, either, not that they're developed for the public yet. OTOH, Jake *has* designed games with "non-gamer" requirements: Foundry games hired him to make games to sell Foundry miniatures, and Mantic had him design DKH with the restriction of using existing sprues. So far, the DSKS isn't a must-buy, so I think waiting for retail is entirely reasonable. Part of participating in KS is risk, and the risk of a unsatisfactory ruleset is certainly part of it. Especially given that most boardgames can be easily purchased at the OLGS at a 30% discount, I don't pledge for non-miniature and sometimes miniature boardgames on KS. Mars Attacks base game retails for $75, and Miniature Market has the pre-order at $50. So your $100 pledge of a base game and $50 credit got you, for your $50 above base game from the OLGS... $50 credit.
Wrong example. I did have an early bird, but in the end the Mars Attacks base game cost me a whopping $15. It's the best deal I've had on KS. I did spend some of the rest of that money on other (discounted) Mars Attacks product, but a good deal went towards discounted Deadzone material.
Here's what I bought and paid for with an Early Bird "The Invaders Arrive" $140 Pledge plus $80 worth of extras:
Free Giant Spider, other KS exclusives I can't remember - $0
Masters of Science - $15 (KS Exclusive)
Escalation Expansion - $50 (Best bundle deal)
Martian Mayhem - $50 (1 Robot, 1 Blaine, 5 Stealth Martians, 5 Martian Marines - worst bundle deal. Remains to be seen if worse than retail.)
Martian Deadzone Faction Deck - $5
3 Giant Ants - $20 (Discounted)
1 Deadzone Mat - $20 (Save one penny if you buy the same mat at miniature market now.)
1 Ruins DZ battlezone - $25 (Pretty sure this remains a good price)
Human faction deck - $5
Zombies - $15 (Good discount on these)
EFFECTIVE FINAL PRICE OF THE BASE GAME - $15
Yep, $15. Even if this game bombs and gets liquidated, retail will never beat that price. This is not typical Mantic savings, either, boardgame plastic or no. I don't expect to see another Mantic KS that becomes as good a deal as Mars Attacks again ever.
Total spent:
---------------------------------------------
$220
Pacific wrote: Gah (that's no-ones name, just a noise I've made!), really can't decide between this one and Heroquest. To make it more confusing, on the Gamezone site they describe the miniatures as being made out of 'resin plastic'..
Go research Jake Thorton, and you'll find a solid background in miniatures gaming. Go research Gamezone and you'll find no information other than an eight-sided cylindrical die. GZ has no experience in boardgame rules design. Unlike Mantic, GZ did not show any rules during their funding, and still haven't shown them. Freakin' A. This is supposed to be "HeroQuest", not a master's thesis or something. Rules from GZ should be upcoming sometime between September and October (suggesting that you're not receiving HeroQuest, but a game in name only), so maybe you'll get an idea of the rules before the DS funding is over. Or just wait until retail.
The D&D adventure system is *bleargh*. Not at all heroic, as the monsters get first initiative, and the game just keeps pounding on you, like some reverse grinding. It's one of those "oh, you shouldn't play by the mechanics, you should play it in the *spirit* of the game" games. OTOH, The miniatures are from the D&D miniatures line, and the tiles are great for 28mm adventuring. Wrath of Ashardalon has a fun adventure with villager AI, with each villager having a different AI to reflect their personality -- and you have to make sure they don't cause more problems than the monsters do! I would have *never* bought this game had I been on KS at the time. Value's not as good as KS, and the ruleset is poor.
Thanks for the post there Ced1106, that's a couple of interesting points you have made there.
I suppose my thinking was that Heroquest might just adopt the rules (or have something similar at least) to the original game. I know the guy who wrote Heroquest and Space Crusade (I forget his name) disappeared off the face of the earth after making those games, so I'm not sure where IP would fall in that kind of situation? Although some people have been commenting on the Spanish GZ forums that the rules are still up in the air, they still haven't seen anything..
On the other hand, I've played and enjoyed both Dreadball and Deadzone - well made games, and actually followed Jake Thornton for years (wasn't he involved with Necromunda? Pretty sure his name is there in the credits).
Hmm.. not sure what to do! I might just get everything!
The new expansion pack, with a working title of Infernal Crypts, is an opportunity to take your party of heroes on an all-new adventure – and encounter an all-new enemy.
The expansion pack features:
- Rulebook featuring all you need to know to play with the denizens of the Abyss
- 6 New Scenarios with an all-new narrative
- New thick card rooms to add to your dungeon
- 2 elite ready-to-play colored plastic Abyssal Warriors large infantry with two hand weapons
- 4 ready-to-play colored plastic Lower Abyssal miniatures with hand weapons
- Demon Deck for commanding the forces of the Abyss
- Equipment and powerful Magic Items for your heroes to combat these new enemies
- Spells Cards
- Counters
The Infernal Crypt introduces the Abyssals, fiery portents of evil and a mass of teeth, claw and weapons made of otherworldly metal cold to the touch.
Let’s get to know them a little better…
Lower Abyssal
The warriors of the pit are organised into a hierarchy like any other army, but even the weakest amongst their number is a terrifying foe for any mortal to face. Given life by the energies of the most dark and powerful magic, these semi-corporeal creatures take on the shape of the worst nightmares of mortal races, literally shaped by the fears of the living. Red skinned and with vicious, predatory features, they are viciously capable fighters, wielding close combat weapons.
Lower Abyssal Magi
Nicknamed Magi by the order of the Ardent Flame, these Lower Abyssals are minor spell-casters who manifest their hatred in bolts of red hot fury. They launch them from their hands, incinerating any who come into contact.
Abyssal Warriors
The existence of an Abyssal Warrior is one governed by constant violence and bloodshed, even amongst themselves. Those who rise to the top of the pile, by dint of cunning, martial prowess or most likely a combination of the two, will earn the right to don ceremonial armour and wield more powerful weapons. The armour is largely cosmetic due to the specific alchemy of the creatures, but serves the purpose of marking out these superior examples of the Abyssal Warrior breed, both to their enemies and their comrades.
we hit this stretch goal, we will be able to produce the second expansion pack for Dungeon Saga – Infernal Crypts.
Not only do you get an all-new adventure to play through with your party, as well as new Dungeon Tiles, you also get access to new equipment and magic items to customise your heroes to greater levels of power.
This set will be available as an Optional Add-on for $25.
If we continue to get more funding, then we’ll be able to add more models to the set, much in the same way as we were able to in The Warlord of Galahir, which was developed from the same starting contents into the monstrous pack of Greenskins we have now!
Can only bode well for Infernal Crypts...
f course, we’re not done with adding even more freebies in your Dungeon Master pledge, so stay tuned – just over 1 week to go until the end!
And finally…
We are introducing two new pledge levels on the weekend:
Design your own character!
Ever wanted to build your own hero? Fancied a model of your very own villain? With this new pledge level you will get a Dungeon Master pledge level and get to build your very own character! You’ll be involved in the design, from background and concept to final painted model, and get a finely detailed resin model at the end of the process, which can be just yours or offered to other Kickstarter backers at your discretion!
Painted Pledge!
Quite simply, you’ll get a Dungeon Master pledge level painted, including any future stretch goals. The more we fund the better value it gets. This means that you can pick a colour scheme and we’ll do all the work for you. If you can’t paint or want to paint your set and you haven’t got the time, you can relax knowing a fully painted set will be on its way to you with a Painted Pledge.
These pledge levels will go live on Saturday 23rd August – if you’re interested and would like more information, please do get in touch via the Kickstarter Messages. These will be limited in number and likely to go live around 5:30-6:00pm BST.
Abyssals are being shown now. I think they've got kind of a Japanese Oni look to them personally, and I'm not a huge fan. Seeing as this is their plan for the lesser ones, I'm going to continue with my plan to use GW ones for the lessers. I'm sure others will love this style. But I don't.
timetowaste85 wrote: Abyssals are being shown now. I think they've got kind of a Japanese Oni look to them personally, and I'm not a huge fan. Seeing as this is their plan for the lesser ones, I'm going to continue with my plan to use GW ones for the lessers. I'm sure others will love this style. But I don't.
^ I can't recommend Heresy enough, I've only ever made one order from them, but it was delivered with a personalized humorous message and a free lollipop in the package. Pure win.
Oh, and Mars Attacks was sweet, best Mantic KS ever. I bought $125 of Deadzone terrain at KS prices with the credit, then got the rest of the stuff (retail box + KS bonuses, 68 minis total) for $15.
scarletsquig wrote: ^ I can't recommend Heresy enough, I've only ever made one order from them, but it was delivered with a personalized humorous message and a free lollipop in the package. Pure win.
Oh, and Mars Attacks was sweet, best Mantic KS ever. I bought $125 of Deadzone terrain at KS prices with the credit, then got the rest of the stuff (retail box + KS bonuses, 68 minis total) for $15.
I've bought fething loads of stuff from Andy! Trolls, Badass doggies, creepy "The Descent" style beasties, some troopers for a renegade IG squad or two.
If you want some genuinely evil looking Goblins have at his Goblin Aid minis (Unlocked as a stretch goal at £18K or available at his store) Some really great looking stuff.
**Edit- I should warn you, the Netherlord might need a VERY LARGE chamber to dwell in for Dungeon Saga lol.
I like the concepts from Mantic, hope they have some sculpts ready too however, after the Kings of War experience, I opt to wait first. I'm pretty sure these figs will bring even more people in however!
.
Plus, AntiMatter with its ShadowSea campaign has presently got it's hand deeply shoved into my wallet, groping around for more. As said, funds just aren't unlimited.
