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Post by: CptJake
I don't think so. So far I think they are all add ons, though the $100 pledge gets a sampling of the figures added in.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Sirio wrote:I like the concepts from Mantic, hope they have some sculpts ready too however, after the Kings of War experience, I opt to wait first. I'm pretty sure these figs will bring even more people in however!
Apparently, we will be avoiding Basilean-gate this time as Mantic's QC policies have been tightened up a notch or two and their plastic Enforcers for DZ will be rigorously checked before dispatching them to their customers. Hence the delays.
Also @CptJake and BobtheInquisitor
That appears to be the only one so far..
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Post by: CptJake
 angelofvengeance wrote:Sirio wrote:I like the concepts from Mantic, hope they have some sculpts ready too however, after the Kings of War experience, I opt to wait first. I'm pretty sure these figs will bring even more people in however!
Apparently, we will be avoiding Basilean-gate this time as Mantic's QC policies have been tightened up a notch or two and their plastic Enforcers for DZ will be rigorously checked before dispatching them to their customers. Hence the delays.
Only true if their QC policies hold for the new materials. Kicking back expensive tools for hard plastics until the requirement is met may not affect how they handle restic and the new toy plastic. I hope they tighten it all up, but until I see similar announcements about kicking back products made from other materials for QC reasons I'm not going to hold my breath.
/still ticked at the restic messes that are my marauder guntracks and DZ rebels. Automatically Appended Next Post:
That isn't the full blown expansion added to the $100 pledge, that is a couple of figures and a scenario from the expansion.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
I may have misunderstood what they were trying to say there CptJake lol. Sorry.My mistake.
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Post by: CptJake
No biggie. They are definitely adding to the base pledge, and including not only the couple of figs, but the scenario too is pretty cool.
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Post by: squall018
I went ahead and put my 25$ in for the new expansion, but I'm not sure about it. The Demons look way too cartoony, even more so than GWs. I will have to wait and see a little more before making a final decision. I would have been happy with abyssal dwarves instead of them trying out a new race (for them).
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
 timetowaste85 wrote:Abyssals are being shown now. I think they've got kind of a Japanese Oni look to them personally, and I'm not a huge fan. Seeing as this is their plan for the lesser ones, I'm going to continue with my plan to use GW ones for the lessers. I'm sure others will love this style. But I don't.
Have you seen the Shieldwolf mountain orcs? They look like demons, but you get twice as many for the same price.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
 squall018 wrote:I went ahead and put my 25$ in for the new expansion, but I'm not sure about it. The Demons look way too cartoony, even more so than GWs. I will have to wait and see a little more before making a final decision. I would have been happy with abyssal dwarves instead of them trying out a new race (for them).
Well I think we should reserve judgment til the dollies sculpts are shown. You can always send em back or sell em if you don't like the models IMO.
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Post by: Azazelx
ced1106 wrote:True. BGG isn't entirely happy that the Advanced Rules haven't been shown yet, either, not that they're developed for the public yet. OTOH, Jake *has* designed games with "non-gamer" requirements: Foundry games hired him to make games to sell Foundry miniatures,
Which games with Foundry? The only one I'm aware of is God of Battles, and Jake talked about how he was already writing it on his blog - he wanted it to be Kings of War but found out that Alessio had already been hired by Ronnie to write it, and so he shopped it over to Foundry. My guess is that Warlord might have been next stop.
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Post by: ced1106
So's yours because I didn't want to spend more than $100, and the extras were overpriced. 
No, but seriously, some of these KS get complicated with the add-ons, so if everyone can note the best-priced add-ons for which gamers, I think we could all benefit. Frex, on the BGG forum, I'm maintaining a thread of which DS add-ons are best for boardgamers who don't want to assemble stuff. More importantly...
I suppose my thinking was that Heroquest might just adopt the rules (or have something similar at least) to the original game. I know the guy who wrote Heroquest and Space Crusade (I forget his name) disappeared off the face of the earth after making those games, so I'm not sure where IP would fall in that kind of situation?
On BGG, we discussed (to the point of naseum) about HQ copyrights. Basically, just because the game hasn't been in print for umpteen years, doesn't mean that Hasbro still can't seek litigation against GameZone. (There is no "abandonware", as Steve Jackson would have told you prior to the Ogre KS.) Most litigation results in a settlement (see irony below), so the question is *NOT* whether or not any of this IP brouhaha is legal, but what sort of settlement Hasbro and GZ would have, when Hasbro goes after them. (Hasbro went after a French fansite when someone made a copy of HQ and tried selling it on eBay!) Previous Hasbro litigation suggests that they will not act until they have evidence (eg. Hex's beta) that could stand up in court. Actual published GZ rules would be much stronger evidence than a slideshow of an eight-sided die. Hasbro also seems to be slow to act, meaning that HQ25 backers may get their swag before Hasbro does anything. Again, most court cases like these do not reach the court, so the usual hypothetical legal armchair wrangling you see on forum threads is likely to be more flame than applicability. AFAIK, The original designer still works for Hasbro, but that doesn't matter, since Hasbro has the copyrights, not the designer.
The Spanish gaming website .jugamostodos.org has an article of Hasbro litigation against Falomir, publisher of Spanish tribute / knock-off games. Most of these knock-offs are for *traditional family games*, and one suit *did* go to Spanish courts. IIRC, It took something like a year to settle, and during that time games *were* available for purchase. I posted a thread collecting Hasbro IP litigations against various companies (including a movie company!) here: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1187321/hasbro-sues-cryptozoic-june-2014-sweetpea-entertai
EDIT: If you want to discuss more about HQ, go to the Dakka thread about it, or the BGG forum.
EDIT EDIT: Mantic GenCon photos! : https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.709374572469047.1073741837.636292483110590&type=1
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Post by: JoshInJapan
 BobtheInquisitor wrote: timetowaste85 wrote:Abyssals are being shown now. I think they've got kind of a Japanese Oni look to them personally, and I'm not a huge fan. Seeing as this is their plan for the lesser ones, I'm going to continue with my plan to use GW ones for the lessers. I'm sure others will love this style. But I don't.
Have you seen the Shieldwolf mountain orcs? They look like demons, but you get twice as many for the same price.
While you do get quite a few, the plastics are not really very good, in my opinion. You get a big gap where the head joins the neck, and the details on the sides are questionable. YMMV, of course.
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Post by: baritowned
Does anyone know if the two KoW packs are going to be used as some sort of scenario? I just noticed them and I'm debating on how much I should up my pledge by...
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Post by: JoeRugby
I think the KOW packs are for the dwarfs king hold scenarios that are going to be added.
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Post by: baritowned
There are different packs though... They have some that are DKH-specific, and then others that are an "undead pack", and a "goblin pack"
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Post by: Bioptic
Ah - those are for use in advanced games, presumably using custom scenarios. They're currently including rules for all Orc, goblin and undead KoW models for the advanced mode of DS, and these packs are essentially discounted 'samplers' of some of the types that might fit well into a custom dungeon.
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
Well on Jakes blog it states no more than 4 skel warriors on the board at one time - might their be a cap of 4 of each type of model? (I think DKH had a limit of 12 skellie warriors.)
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Post by: Azazelx
Of course, if you're customising your games, or running with a GM, you can house-rule anything you please...
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Post by: Talking Banana
ced1106 wrote:So's yours because I didn't want to spend more than $100
fair enough - the $150 pledge level was much, much better than the $100 one.
Well, that depends on what you bought. Most of the add-on prices were either in line with discounted retail or better. (The Escalation bundle was especially good, and try finding KOW zombies for $15 with free shipping anywhere.) Some are still hard to judge (what will a Stompy Robot go for at retail?) But Mars Attacks definitely featured one of the worst deals in Mantic KS history; I'm thinking of the $8 they were asking for individual board game plastic figures. They've become more reasonable since then: In DBX they charged $5 for the same, and now in Dungeon Saga they're charging $8 for individual resin minis. I'm very glad I decided not to add-on any individual Mars Attacks figures.
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Post by: Pacific
After having a read through the alpha rules they seem promising, although I realise this is the basic form.
The hitting/defending mechanic is interesting, very similar to the game 'Spartacus: Blood on the Sand' in terms of how you match attack and defence dice (comparing high rolls). Having a 'kill' level for basic minions is a good idea, rather than tracking wounds - I know from experience this can be a PITA (and cause arguments) in similar games.
And it's good that the defending player gets to roll some dice, and stays involved and focused on the game during the opponents turn.
That's me sold, will at very least be going in for the $100 level (which is actually pretty good with the current exchange rate, about £60). Then it will be a waiting game between this and Heroquest as to which will arrive first! Although, I can already guess which that will be..
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Post by: GrimDork
Good to hear positive feedback on the rules, I need to demo a game for myself but I haven't had time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Holy crap! Those painted pledge levels just blew the half million goal out of the water, helloooo Fiends! Impatiently awaiting that update!
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Post by: Pacific
Another update, guess the $500,000 one will be next as the KS has just passed that figure.
Project Update #34: Top Drawer
Seems like we’re getting closer to having a brand new enemy to fight against!
With just over 9 days until this Kickstarter campaign closes, we’re launching two epic new pledge levels.
Painted Dungeon Master!
Dungeon Saga contains colored plastic models ready-to-play right out of the box, although you can paint them like we have to accentuate the details.
Of course, it's not always easy finding the time to sit painting. You might not have painted before either - it certainly isn’t a requirement to enjoy the game.
However, if you did want a painted set, today we’ve launched the Painted Dungeon Master level.
That’s all the miniatures and furniture you see in the pledge graphic below plus any additional stretch goal rewards we add in, painted to a great tabletop standard:
By pledging for this level, we will do all the hard work for you – all you need to do is choose what colour scheme you want your miniatures painted in. This means you’ll get a fully painted set to play with and display, right out of the box.
Not only that but if you want the expansion sets doing as well, we can sort that out for you too. Just message us 
Design your own hero!
Ever seen yourself as an adventurer? Always had an idea for a miniature but never been able to realise it? Thought of a great character that should exist but doesn’t? The design-your-hero pledge allows you to bring your imagination to life on the tabletop.
With this pledge level, we will work with you to develop your character into a miniature. It can be hero or a villain, male, female or something else, but must be on foot/hoof/claw. From background to concept, sculpt to finished painted model, we’ll take your brief and feedback to create a new character.
You will receive a resin copy of the miniature and signed artwork from the artist, and can choose whether we make it available for others to pledge for, or if you want to be the only person who gets one.
This is great for collectors, but what happens if you want to game with it?
Well, you’ll get to have a say in the games design behind the model. You can inform their equipment, personality, how they fight and how it undertakes adventures. These rules will then be printed in the Dungeon Journal, and you’ll get everything you need to play with the character in Dungeon Saga!
Case-study: Jullius and Samacris
We ran a previous Kickstarter for our mass fantasy battle game Kings of War. We had a special pledge level which we ended up customising heavily for a gentleman called Julian Chan who wanted a model made for himself and his new wife, Sam.
We worked with Julian and Sam to develop two Basilean Elohi characters: Jullius and Samacris. Unlike other Elohi, Jullius has a distinct scaly dragon theme running through his artwork.
Samacris is emblazoned with symbols of the phoenix, right down to the fiery wings.
Julian and Sam had the models made in their own likeness meaning they could literally be on the ground as general of their own army.
New Pledge Levels
So there you have it – two brand new pledge levels are available in the right hand column of the Kickstarter page. They are highly limited in number. Just five of the painted pledges and 3 of the design your own pledges are available.
We have also had a few requests for custom pledges that combine both the painting and the design a model. We’re more than happy to work with backers on requests like this, so there may be a few custom pledges that get added as well. If you are interested please do get in touch.
Until later my friends, it looks like we're going to be unlocking the Infernal Crypts expansion pack soon!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Prices are $1250 for design your own character, $1350 for the fully painted set.
The 3 of the character design ones are still left but all of the latter have now gone!
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
Wow, if you want them painted that badly just pack then off to Sri Lanka.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Had a mate witha painting service in Bangladesh. The orders he would get were things like "here is £20,000, can I have Napoleons army in 10mm." Historical players have cash...
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Post by: lord marcus
The_Real_Chris wrote:Wow, if you want them painted that badly just pack then off to Sri Lanka.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Had a mate witha painting service in Bangladesh. The orders he would get were things like "here is £20,000, can I have Napoleons army in 10mm." Historical players have cash...
Sri lanka is on the other end of the Indian subcontinent in relation to Bangladesh
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Post by: Riquende
"Napoleon's Army" is pretty vague. I'd have just painted up the 600 men he had whilst on Elba.
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
Sri Lanka is on the other end of the Indian subcontinent in relation to Bangladesh
Yes... (Well, not quite the other side, due south really.)
If I gave the impression they were the same place sorry. Reinforcements by post was/is in Bangladesh and deals in historicals as there is simply more cash in it. Painted figs in Sri Lanka does a lot of GW style stuff.
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Post by: Da Boss
Still hanging in there, but haven't bought any expansions yet. I have bloodletters, plaguebearers and pink horrors enough to fill in for any of the abyssals, and a full orc and goblin army to manage them if needs be.
The stats for all of them are being included in the adventurer's companion, right? So I'm mostly just missing out on some tiles and scenarios (given that I don't care too much about the miniatures).
Still a while to go, but currently 100$ is still looking a bit too steep for me.
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Post by: scarletsquig
I guess the main problem I'm looking at currently is the fact that the bonus minis are only useful for the expansions.. which aren't included in the base pledge.
But, if I buy the expansions, then presumably the expansions come with all the minis you need to play them, so the extra minis there aren't really of much use.
Would have been better to have a free expansion of our choice or something tangible and useable rather than a small selection of minis from each expansion which aren't all that useful if you don't buy the expansion and aren't useful at all if you do buy the expansion.
I'm staying in for the KS exclusives at this point, but unsure about whether this is finally time to kick in my collector's addiction to those!
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Post by: GrimDork
Well, the "Advanced Rules" they keep mentioning but that don't exist yet and may not until the very last moments of production (I'm looking at you DZ AI rules...) are supposed to allow you to use anything for your custom dungeon, with the large bestiary from the unlocked KoW units.
I suspect you would get some use of them between the dungeon journal or whatever they're calling it and the advanced rules, but I do understand your fears, certainly I have more deadzone models than I could ever possibly use, and in the case of enforcers it's a ridiculous ratio of fieldable/owned.
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Post by: Da Boss
Yeah, I'm not enough of a fan of the concepts to go for the exclusives.
I'm keeping my pledge where it is right now, and will wait and see if it increases in value enough to make it worth keeping my money on the table.
As to having models to use, my fantasy collection is pretty big as it stands, and I recently got a big box of stuff from Red Box Games, which has my favorite Goblin and Orc sculpts in the world, as well as a bunch of cool heroic sculpts to use as adventurers. Mantic don't offer anything to compete with that, quality wise, so I'm more interested in the rules, tiles and scenarios than getting piles of figures. If they released something really unique or impressive, that would change my outlook. The salamander could be cool, and I'd be interested in an entire faction of reptiles or something, but generic orcs, goblins, demons and undead are stuff I unfortunately have in great numbers and varieties already!
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Post by: GrimDork
I guess if money is tight, I'll appreciate the capacity to drop galahir and crypt and still get all of their unique sculpts, with rules enough to run my own mini-versions of those campaigns.
I still really need to set up the alpha stuff and throw some dice to see if I like it.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
We're sure knocking these stretch goals down eh?
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
 GrimDork wrote:Well, the "Advanced Rules" they keep mentioning but that don't exist yet and may not until the very last moments of production (I'm looking at you DZ AI rules...) are supposed to allow you to use anything for your custom dungeon, with the large bestiary from the unlocked KoW units.
I suspect you would get some use of them between the dungeon journal or whatever they're calling it and the advanced rules, but I do understand your fears, certainly I have more deadzone models than I could ever possibly use, and in the case of enforcers it's a ridiculous ratio of fieldable/owned.
I think you are supposed to melt each enforcer after it dies in game?
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Post by: greenskin lynn
The_Real_Chris wrote: GrimDork wrote:Well, the "Advanced Rules" they keep mentioning but that don't exist yet and may not until the very last moments of production (I'm looking at you DZ AI rules...) are supposed to allow you to use anything for your custom dungeon, with the large bestiary from the unlocked KoW units.
I suspect you would get some use of them between the dungeon journal or whatever they're calling it and the advanced rules, but I do understand your fears, certainly I have more deadzone models than I could ever possibly use, and in the case of enforcers it's a ridiculous ratio of fieldable/owned.
I think you are supposed to melt each enforcer after it dies in game?
nah, you have each one wear a firecracker or the like as a backpack, and when they die you light it to shot their ammo cooking off
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Post by: GrimDork
Heh, I probably could afford to, especially given how few games I get in...
Looks like we're 3k past the dreaded 525, and a bit less than 2k from adding succubi, sweet!
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Post by: Yonan
Anyone else tempted to get a resin succubi if the sculpt is as good as the concept? If they offer it in resin.
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Post by: Krinsath
 Yonan wrote:Anyone else tempted to get a resin succubi if the sculpt is as good as the concept?
This is my concern. I do like the concept art and I'm woefully short of female demons in my collection, but I'm not sure I have full faith that the model will turn out that way. It does make the offering more interesting though since while I have loads of undead and really don't care for greenskins, I've not had a huge collection of demons in general.
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Post by: Yonan
Yeah I like the style of them from the concept, but boardgame plastic and transition of art to sculpt are two substantial points of failure hehe.
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Post by: Da Boss
They just added some more value to the main pledge for those of us who aren't big on the models in the form of new scenarios.
I figure they're not going to do anything massively interesting with this in the next seven days, but if they keep adding value like that then I will consider keeping my pledge where it is despite the cash flow problems.
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Post by: Talking Banana
I'm not particularly into fantasy, and I'm leery of investing in another boardgame plastic Mantic game sight unseen. But I intend to stay in this one for about $25+ worth of resin figure exclusives.
I won't be buying any $50 resin bundle deals, though, so my final tally will depend on which figures they end up offering for individual sale.
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Post by: GrimDork
I have a feeling they will add doors before its over, people have been clamoring for them and it will add value to the box.
That may bring a small spike.
If they add more painted pledge levels, an all resin dungeon master pledge, an all resin painted set, etc... we may see some spikes too.
This has been a fun campaign, no major slowdowns so far and we are rapidly closing with the last 2-3 days. One more paycheck for a lot of us before the end.
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Post by: Necros
I'm in for the game plus both expansions. I wasn't gonna add the expansions but I thought why not. If they end up doing a 3rd though I probably won't be able to afford that.
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Post by: Pacific
Don't think this update has been posted yet? Just over $535 at time of writing
Project Update #37: This is Torture!
UNLOCKED! Abyssal Succubi!
Wahey, we’re really cooking on gas today!
We’ve now unlocked the Abyssal Succubus, a new enemy type for your heroes to battle against.
We’ve included one in the Dungeon Master pledge level for you to use on your adventures, and we’ve added two to the Infernal Crypts expansion pack to further enhance the variety and challenge of the set:
These new enemies are powerful foes for your heroes – you’re going to require more than skill and luck if you hope to dispatch these enemies effectively.
With this next goal we’re continuing on this same theme, giving you new and interesting enemy types to combat and increase the value of the expansion pack.
New Stretch Goal
$545,000 BONUS Abyssal Tortured Souls
As terrifying and inimical to life as the Abyss may be, there will always be those in the mortal world who seek power, fame or simply wealth, and will set out on ill-advised expeditions into the depths. Of those that do, none have ever returned, though this doesn’t stop others trying. Were they to know the true fate of those unfortunates who disappear, they may indeed think twice. The degenerates known as ‘Tortured Souls’ are those warriors, mages and adventurers who thought themselves talented, strong or lucky enough to defy the Abyss itself. Stripped of all identity, they are little better than beasts now, driven before the armies of the Abyss like mongrels to mob the enemy and provide fodder for their weapons. The chains which twine around them are forged from soul-iron, and prevent their very essences from leaving their physical form even in death. In this way, they will be resurrected time and again after every battle, to once more be thrown forwards to die, their souls in eternal torment.
If we hit this stretch goal, we will produce the Tortured Souls and will:
- Include two of these miniatures in the Infernal Crypts expansion pack ($25)
- Include one of this miniature in a pledge of Dungeon Master ($100 and Early Bird)
Because it’s a Public Holiday here in the UK, we also going to release a new Backer Stretch Goal to get you more game for your money!
You’ve got some very exciting new miniatures in your Dungeon Master pledge with the Greenskins and Abyssals. You get all the stats and rules required to use them in the Adventurer's Companion, perfect if you want to build your own adventures and add some variety and spice to your quests.
With this next stretch goal, we’re going to add some bonus missions of our own design to proceedings, each with there own strong narrative, that makes further use of these figures!
3,850 Backer Stretch Goal: BONUS SCENARIOS!
When we break this stretch goal, we will add:
- 2 scenarios to your Kickstarter Exclusive Dungeon Journal that sees our heroes take on the mighty Greenskins!
- 2 scenarios to your Kickstarter Exclusive Dungeon Journal that pits your heroes against the demonic hordes of the Abyss!
These four bonus scenarios give you brand new quests for your heroes to undertake. They supplement your adventure and the expansion packs with new challenges that will test your mettle and your resolve. Who knows, they might even see a mixed force to fight against...
Draw your swords and prepare for battle folks - let's get these goals beaten!
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Post by: Compel
I've got to admit, considering how well this kickstarter is going, it's kinda well, a bit boring I find.
Basically, I've really looked at it about 3 times since its opened.
Once to add the Legendary Heroes set
Once to add the Goblin Campaign and some extra counters
Once to add the Abyssal Campaign
And that's about it, there hasn't really seemed to be anything for me to go and look at for it.
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Post by: GrimDork
Maybe you're just hitting burn-out from doing a bunch of kickstarters?
Though it is kind of true, there haven't been any enormous monsters and such.
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Post by: Talking Banana
Yeah, I was a bit surprised when they said the lizard-riding goblin wasn't for this game and won't be making an appearance.
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Post by: Bolognesus
...Oh. Well, that's just convinced me my pledge won't go over the current USD 1 any more, then. shame, I really want that particular mini...
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Post by: carlos13th
I wont back this but it seems like it might be fun to pick up and play with the Gf or some mates once its out for retail.
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Post by: willb2064
Yonan wrote:Anyone else tempted to get a resin succubi if the sculpt is as good as the concept? If they offer it in resin.
I am. But given that translating concept art into passable sculpts isn't exactly Mantic's strength, I'll wait for retail.
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Post by: Yonan
willb2064 wrote: Yonan wrote:Anyone else tempted to get a resin succubi if the sculpt is as good as the concept? If they offer it in resin.
I am. But given that translating concept art into passable sculpts isn't exactly Mantic's strength, I'll wait for retail.
If you want resin you'll have to pledge as they're kickstarter exclusive. If you wait until retail you'll get boardgame plastic. Most of mantics sculpts come out well imo, but yeah there is the odd case of it coming out bad purely due to sculpt rather than a material related issue.
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Post by: Azazelx
I think you're being a bit generous with "most" at this stage. They're definitely getting better, but I wouldn't give them "most" quite yet...
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Post by: Herzlos
I'll be dropping out of this one, so if anyone wants to co-ordinate for the EB I've camped on let me know.
I'm just not sure enough about the board game plastics or restic, and have enough of this stuff already (including about $200 spend on SDE), so I'll be giving my credit card a chance to recover and looking at it at retail.
Edit: Cancelled now, 1 EB is available for a few minutes at least.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
New Stretch Goal boys and girls-
Update #38
That’s done it – the Tortured Souls are locked in and done!
That’s two new miniatures added to the Infernal Crypts expansion pack and one new model added to the Dungeon Master pledge level!!
The next stretch goal is a bit bigger than the last few – not least because we’re funding some nice big monsters for you to fight against and a new mission to play. Not only will this give you greater value in the expansion and pledge level, but it’ll also provide more variety and more challenge for your heroes.
With the influx of new backers we are getting plus the final Add-on Wednesday of the campaign coming tomorrow, it won’t take long to break down either – and once we’re through it we’re on to talking about all things Adventurer’s Companion later this week.
Before we get to the next stretch goal however…
Expansion Packs
We’ve updated the Expansion pack graphics to include Warlord and Demon Panels – dashboards that give the controlling player their stats and special rules.
We’ve also clarified whether the expansion packs have A.I. and Solo Play options - and we’re pleased to say that they do!
This means both expansion sets have A.I. decks included so that you can add them to your dungeon and have the cards control the opponent whilst you, your mates or your family team up to conquer the bad-guys!
http://quirkworthy.com/2014/08/25/bad-guy-ai-in-dungeon-sagas/
Alpha Core Rules
The response to the Alpha Core Rules has been fantastic and the level and quality of feedback we are getting is great – please keep it coming.
With this information we can start refining and tweaking the rules. Jake has put together this http://quirkworthy.com/2014/08/21/a-brief-de-alpha-update/ clarifying some of the mechanics and responding to your feedback.
New Stretch Goal!
$570,000 BONUS Abyssal Molochs
Huge lumbering beasts the size of an Ogre, the Molochs are similar to the Abyssal Warriors in practically every way but their stature. They tend to be fairly solitary creatures, due to the nature of the Abyss, where constant fighting for supremacy is the norm. Occasionally they have been known to band together into small groups, but these never last for long before another bout of infighting breaks out.
A big goal for big-troll sized demons, the Abyssal Molochs are hulking beasts of war, and come supplied on integrated 50mm x 50mm bases. These big bad boys are among the most terrifying denizens of the Abyss.
You’ll need all your wits about you when fighting a demonic Moloch lest your heroes be torn apart by sheer brute force…
If we hit this stretch goal, we will produce the large troll-sized Abyssal Molochs and will:
- Include two of these miniatures in the Infernal Crypts expansion pack ($25)!
- Include one of this miniature in a pledge of Dungeon Master ($100 and Early Bird)!
- Add a bonus seventh scenario to the Infernal Crypts expansion pack!
These hulking beasts add a great deal of value to your Expansion Pack and the Dungeon Master pledge level, whilst the new scenario gives you a new quest to undertake!
And there you have it folks, a brand new large enemy to fight against, a new scenario to play, A.I. cards in the expansions and a feature on the Adventurer's Companion coming up - and the final Add-on Wednesday to look forward to!
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Post by: Alpharius
I see they're sticking with the 'too short' legs look that first showed up a long ways back.
That's a shame...
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Post by: judgedoug
 Alpharius wrote:I see they're sticking with the 'too short' legs look that first showed up a long ways back.
That's a shame...
Yup, same art (just colorized) as shown for KoW.
Unfortunately, now Mantic is doomed. Producing these Molochs to the concept art will make everyone groan as the legs are too short; changing them from the concept art into a different model will make everyone groan as the models then don't match the concept art.
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Post by: Rolt
Good the see the Abyssal army is finally becoming at real thing after all this time, I just severely hope they have improved the
Molochs sculpts since we last saw them.
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Post by: agnosto
Alpharius wrote:I see they're sticking with the 'too short' legs look that first showed up a long ways back.
That's a shame...
Because nothing screams "Lord of the Underworld!!!" like a waddling, pot-bellied monster leaning on his weapon...
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Post by: edlowe
And heres a pic of what could be the sculpts from the open day
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Post by: Rolt
Yep Edlowe those are ones, the details might be good but the proportions seem so awkward from a distance I can't imagine they look much better up close either,
its the lone neck that seems to really empathizes it although the artwork above does have some sort of armored neck bracer which my fix it (somewhat) providing
its included on the final model.
Oh well wait for Mantics beauty shots I guess.
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Post by: Alpharius
I suppose by now I should realize that this is part of Mantic's "House Style" and in a way, I'm grateful as it makes it easier to resist pledging.
But I kind of like the concept art, it just isn't something that translates well into a miniature for me.
So close... Dare I say? ...almost enough to get me to pledge!
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Post by: Gallahad
Those Molochs look like they were sculpted by the same person that did the stage two plague for Deadzone, in other words, someone who has no idea how shoulder anatomy works.
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Post by: edlowe
I actually think there the ones for kow and we'll be seeing a different, maybe more open sculpt for ds.
I really liked them when I saw them at the openday, the legs were much more spread out than the ogres which made them look much better imho. Their the main army I'm holding out for in kow in the next ks.
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Post by: agnosto
Maybe Ronnie loves Friday the 13th or something with the killer slowly sauntering around and still somehow catching the running victims.
The poses aren't very inspired either; half of them look like they have a giant middle finger, the guy in the middle looks like he just jumped around the corner of building is yelling "Boo!" One guy is doing the "running man" dance and another looks like he's about to ring a doorbell.
None of them are very horrific...what one would expect from creatures from hell...
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Post by: Rolt
you could always make a cool Dungeon Keeper themed army with the Abyssals, those stumpy Molochs would make pretty sweet Bile Demons.
Just saying, just tempting you softly.
@Agnosto
I think the guys your looking at are the convicts team from dreadball xtreme (to the MAX!), the Molochs are the three porky big guys at the back.
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Post by: judgedoug
 agnosto wrote:Maybe Ronnie loves Friday the 13th or something with the killer slowly sauntering around and still somehow catching the running victims.
The poses aren't very inspired either; half of them look like they have a giant middle finger, the guy in the middle looks like he just jumped around the corner of building is yelling "Boo!" One guy is doing the "running man" dance and another looks like he's about to ring a doorbell.
None of them are very horrific...what one would expect from creatures from hell...
Err, the Dreadball Convicts?
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Those Abyssal Molochs don't look too shabby
I quite like them.
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Post by: agnosto
 judgedoug wrote: agnosto wrote:Maybe Ronnie loves Friday the 13th or something with the killer slowly sauntering around and still somehow catching the running victims.
The poses aren't very inspired either; half of them look like they have a giant middle finger, the guy in the middle looks like he just jumped around the corner of building is yelling "Boo!" One guy is doing the "running man" dance and another looks like he's about to ring a doorbell.
None of them are very horrific...what one would expect from creatures from hell...
Err, the Dreadball Convicts?
LoL DERP! For some reason I totally missed the sign in the back! 
I'll just go hide under a rock now.
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Post by: GrimDork
I dunno, the Molochs remind me of some D&D monster manual art for demons. Usually they have at least a little bit of magic in their movement, especially if they have wings. Or they might just be used for guarding things, stumpy legs don't matter a whole lot if your job is to stand in front of a door
I dunno, I think they'll be a nice addition to the abyss contingent. Besides they're demons, maybe looking out of proportion is a disturbing distraction tactic
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Post by: Da Boss
I don't mind the Molochs too much- they're the most interesting thing to come out of the KS miniature wise apart from the Salamander.
They're tempting me to up my pledge to get the abyss expansion, actually!
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Post by: agnosto
If I'm able to ignore the Mantic Stubby Leg© syndrom, the concept art is fine, though the masters in the photo need different heads. I would love for Mantic to learn how to make big creatures one day who are not aesthetically malformed in some way.
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Post by: Gallahad
Why can't we get demons that you don't have to fluff into believability? "They use magic to move!" "They don't even need to move!" I think there are a lot of people who (like me) would buy a lot more Mantic stuff if the sculpts were better. This includes such nods to the art of sculpting as "looks like it can move its legs" and "sculptor knows basic shoulder anatomy." Nobody ever shows up on the Mierce threads and goes "Blah, that thing looks too realistic and frightening, could you guys maybe make the legs shorter, the head and hands bigger, and the arms longer?"
You could likely double whatever they paid the guy/gal to sculpt those things and get a much better sculptor and likely only have to raise their prices on each figure by ten cents or something with the level of distribution they have. While there might be a small number of people that would push over the line into "not worth it, too expensive, I am looking for plastic slag" there would be a lot a lot of people who would purchase based on the strength of the sculpt alone.
(I know you were only being half serious GrimDork, so this isn't an attack against you, just a general lament)
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Post by: GrimDork
I still don't mind the stump legs that much, kind of a style or something. I wouldn't mind something lankier or that wouldn't waddle when it walks, but I'm not terribly bothered by the concept as it stands.
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Post by: Azazelx
To me, they're fine as a thing you get three of in a boardgame. However, when it comes to buying more for use in a wargame, I'd just buy other, better models from other companies. (yes, even including GW with their prices).
And there's the core of the problem....
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I like the stumpy legs on them. If they're that good of warrior, they don't need to be in such a big rush.
If you're too unhappy with them (I won't be) just replace them with these guys(or use them in addition to, like I will), as I can't think of many more badass demons than these:
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Post by: primalexile
I am really considering purchasing just the resin heroes, blaine, and legendary heroes from this KS and picking everything else up at retail.. Looking over Mars Attacks stuff is just giving me a weird feeling about how these plastics will turn out.
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Post by: scarletsquig
I saw some Mars Attacks minis in person last weekend, happy enough with the plastic.
We're about to hit 60 minis for £60 (plus all the other stuff) with this, call it 70 if you count terrain?
Another $500k of funding and another 30 minis should hopefully bump it up to a nice 100 minis for $100 thing.
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Post by: Rolt
So on a slightly different note from the whole Molochs legs, hips and bust ratios, you guys and gals think theres any chance of seeing some ratmen (skaven) by
the end of this campaign considering theres at least some hint (i guess) of it on the DS front cover artwork, although that could just be a normal
rat and I'm holding onto false hope.
I really would love to see mantics interpretation of ratmen, regardless if they ever become a full army or not.
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Post by: Yonan
 scarletsquig wrote:I saw some Mars Attacks minis in person last weekend, happy enough with the plastic.
We're about to hit 60 minis for £60 (plus all the other stuff) with this, call it 70 if you count terrain?
Another $500k of funding and another 30 minis should hopefully bump it up to a nice 100 minis for $100 thing.
Yep the value has come along nicely as expected. Not to mention all the scenarios, tiles, card decks and what not.
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Post by: edlowe
I'm afraid mantic have ruled out a vermyn force for the kow universe, it was mentioned in the comments they've got other ideas they want to develop first.
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Post by: Rolt
Well thats a pity, so I guess its just a random rat after all, an army of badgers and gnomes isn't really my thing, neither is demons although I do love dark elves but Mantics are just, yeah... . Come to think of it theres no decent Kobold
or Gnoll armies either in 28mm scale (which I'd be down for) theres some seriously big missed opportunities floating around the mini world when you think about it.
But meh I'm going OT, thanks Ed.
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Post by: scarletsquig
I'm really hoping for Ophidia as the next expansion. A realm of evil men ruled by immortals.
The Kings of War Rulebook wrote:Ancient Ophidia, the most venerable of all man’s
realms, has weathered catastrophe and war
implacably. Long the rival of Primovantor, it has
survived from the ancient time of light until today.
For more than ten thousand years the God-Kings
have watched over their subjects, who toil as they
ever have on the perilously thin green strip of fertile
land adjoining the River Ophid.
Ophidia is a land of ritual and cruelty, whose nobility
are sorcerers, demonologists and necromancers, and
its true masters are anything but human. It is from
Ophidia that much evil in the world has come: the
necromantic art of death magic, unbound Abyssals and
those terrible perversions of humanity: the vampires
and the ghouls, ghastly by-products of the Ophidian
Sorcerers’ never-ending quest for immortality. This is
a land where desert-borne spirits are slaved to raise
the monuments of the God-Kings, where elaborate
funerary rituals are essential to prevent the return of
the dead, and where, at the heart of it all, the true,
cold-blooded Ophidians plot and scheme dominion of
the world.
Some sort of desert-based tomb raiding dungeon would be very cool.
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Post by: carlos13th
Snake men then?
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Post by: Gallahad
 highlord tamburlaine wrote:I like the stumpy legs on them. If they're that good of warrior, they don't need to be in such a big rush.
If you're too unhappy with them (I won't be) just replace them with these guys(or use them in addition to, like I will), as I can't think of many more badass demons than these:
Exactly! No reason to buy the Mantic minis at all. Not even at one british pound sterling a pop. The Mars Attacks minis certainly aren't worth that in my book.
Regarding the legs, why give them legs at all? Wouldn't a truly powerful warrior not even need legs? 
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Post by: scarletsquig
@carlos There's a lot of different directions they could take it... either Egyptian or Hindu mythology with dark spirits and horrors lurking beneath the sands.
It's a very interesting paragraph in the KoW background (and has a chunk of the Mantica map reserved for it) and I've been waiting for them to do something with it for a while.
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Post by: Rolt
I guess that sounds kinda cool, although it also sounds a bit like a possible not-tomb kings army in the making, at the very least its another reason to look forward to the next KoW KS which will
hopefully explode and fund a few new armies and possibly bigger units for the current armies, I mean seriously why no undead dragon Mantic? Get to it!
Any idea who the Primovantor guys are?
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Post by: GrimDork
Ooh that would be cool. Twilight kin would probably go over well too since a plot of people love dark elves...
If they wanna beat deadzone they need to do a cthulhu themed dungeon, fish men, cultists, goat legged tentacle man, shaggy beast with man-face on its back, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well mummies and phaorohs are already in the undead list, these guys sound more like the gw tk if they were still alive or something.
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Post by: scarletsquig
@Rolt - Primovantor is the dead civilization of men that was drowned during the formation of the Infant Sea. Basilea is the only part of it that survived relatively intact.
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Post by: Rolt
A Cthulhu themed expansion would bring the big money in, it might even be a good way on expanding the Naiad race thats been introduced (heros or foes) and fantasy nameless wouldn't be bad at all.
Don't get me wrong GrimDork I'd love to see Ophidia be something fresh and new rather than anything near TK it just kinda sounds like it to me, personal I'd love to see such an army turn out a bit the like
Broken Lords from Endless Legend, and yeah dark elves would be sweet Mantic really REALLY needs to show that army some love not sure what they were thing with the metal conversion set.
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Post by: GrimDork
They were thinking hard plastic molds are expensive a d they already had elves, just add spikey bits in cheaper to produce metal molds, and boom another army to offer.
Maybe a rapidly filling 3rd expansion will drive everyone on and we'll get a 4th
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Post by: greenskin lynn
you know, if they'd maybe post up what the next few stretch goals are, it might help
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Post by: GrimDork
Their explanation for only doing one or so at a time is to maintain flexibility. If they see a slump or feel that another goal next would make things go better, they can swap it out this way, whereas if they were showing 3 goals out it would be harder to change without upsetting somebody. At least I think that's what they said at some point.
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Post by: judgedoug
highlord tamburlaine wrote:I like the stumpy legs on them. If they're that good of warrior, they don't need to be in such a big rush.
If you're too unhappy with them (I won't be) just replace them with these guys(or use them in addition to, like I will), as I can't think of many more badass demons than these:
As a huge Mierce fanboy I approve but I also realize that fielding just a couple of those guys is the equivalent of the entire $100 pledge
A Mierce dungeoncrawler game would be amazing... but also cost about a thousand bucks for the models
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Post by: RiTides
I really like that Abyssal Moloch art! If someone is looking to part with theirs after receiving their horde 'o minis a year from now, look me up
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Post by: greenskin lynn
GrimDork wrote:Their explanation for only doing one or so at a time is to maintain flexibility. If they see a slump or feel that another goal next would make things go better, they can swap it out this way, whereas if they were showing 3 goals out it would be harder to change without upsetting somebody. At least I think that's what they said at some point.
i get not having like 4 or 5..but maybe like the currently and then the 1 after it
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Hell, a $1000 Mierce dungeon crawler? Don't tell me you wouldn't give it some serious thought! That'd be like the blinged out Cthulhu Wars end all be all of dungeon crawls. It would be GLORIOUS.
Back to Dungeon Sagas though!
We may see a few more stretches cropping up as those final days start ticking down. It wouldn't surprise me.
Tomorrow's add on is going to be the make it or break it one I think. We may see all kinds of goodies they've been holding back. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of optional bosses or characters.
Also, Jim Morrison's band.
I still really want some sort of bucket list of ideas they want to include in the advanced rules!
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Post by: Azazelx
scarletsquig wrote:I saw some Mars Attacks minis in person last weekend, happy enough with the plastic.
We're about to hit 60 minis for £60 (plus all the other stuff) with this, call it 70 if you count terrain?
Another $500k of funding and another 30 minis should hopefully bump it up to a nice 100 minis for $100 thing.
Another $500k? In how many days? Ain't gonna happen. It's not compelling enough, nor is it a crazy enough deal. Also, board game plastics.
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Post by: GrimDork
I'm not seeing 500k, but if we they get this expansion down and the core box plumped up a bit more... with time to spare to do another, could have a cascade of pledges. Maybe not 500k, but at least 2-300k more than we have now.
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Post by: greenskin lynn
 Azazelx wrote: scarletsquig wrote:I saw some Mars Attacks minis in person last weekend, happy enough with the plastic.
We're about to hit 60 minis for £60 (plus all the other stuff) with this, call it 70 if you count terrain?
Another $500k of funding and another 30 minis should hopefully bump it up to a nice 100 minis for $100 thing.
Another $500k? In how many days? Ain't gonna happen. It's not compelling enough, nor is it a crazy enough deal. Also, board game plastics.
yea, i kinda agree, i don't see it pulling that much unless some special kind of madness happens.
maybe a few stretch goals of like super bosses
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Post by: Pacific
What was the 3850 total pledgers release going to be again? Only a few away from this now.
Also, hopefully the 'Wednesday give-away' thing will add something worthwhile.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
 Pacific wrote:What was the 3850 total pledgers release going to be again? Only a few away from this now.
Also, hopefully the 'Wednesday give-away' thing will add something worthwhile.
x4 Extra scenarios for the main game for using the green skins and abyssals.
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Post by: CptJake
angelofvengeance wrote: Pacific wrote:What was the 3850 total pledgers release going to be again? Only a few away from this now.
Also, hopefully the 'Wednesday give-away' thing will add something worthwhile.
x4 Extra scenarios for the main game for using the green skins and abyssals.
So, basically an enticement to increase your pledge for the expansions.
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Post by: edlowe
Could see this hitting 700-750k depends on the addons today plus like has been said many times, some big beasties like a dragon, orc wyvern and Abyssal lord.
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Post by: scarletsquig
There's always a pledging spike whenever a new expansion gets added, if they're able to release another two expansions that will get the average pledge up to around $200 (the usual average is $225 or so).
Still think they missed a trick by not doing hard plastic dungeon builder sprues in addition to the card, would be very cool to have some nicely painted 3d textured surfaces to game on rather than card tiles which will warp eventually.
At least Dwarven Forge backers will have something to be happy about since the game is completely compatible with those tiles.
Agree that something big like Reaper's $10 dragons would really help at this point. Mars Attacks had some really nice huge pieces like the bugs and DKQ needs more girbblies.
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Post by: Bioptic
 CptJake wrote: angelofvengeance wrote: Pacific wrote:What was the 3850 total pledgers release going to be again? Only a few away from this now.
Also, hopefully the 'Wednesday give-away' thing will add something worthwhile.
x4 Extra scenarios for the main game for using the green skins and abyssals.
So, basically an enticement to increase your pledge for the expansions.
Weelll...that, and to give you something to do with your bonus greenskins/devils in the main pledge besides using them in custom games! They did make mention of them allowing for 'mixed forces'.
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
The short legs let the heroes have a chance to escape....
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Post by: timetowaste85
Posting from work, hopefully somebody can do a proper quote from email, but the Add-On Wednesday and the new things they've unveiled should make this what everyone was waiting for. Summary:
Character creation (with skill unlocks)
Random Dungeon Generator rules
Necromancer rules
2 new RESIN heroes
Spiders and rodents in resin (paid)
Traps (Paid)
acrylic tokens (paid)
Obviously I mean the first three are what people were waiting on. The rest are additions that most will take or leave.
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Post by: scarletsquig
Ravena and Gunn aren't included in the $100 pledge as far as I can tell. They are KS exclusives that need to be bought, much like the legendary heroes.
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Post by: GrimDork
Yeah, looks like a killer update that added a lot of things people were after.
The 'free' hardcover dungeon journal at $200 is gonna break my resolve. I'm gonna really want that, and I as already up to 150 for expansions. Guess they're gonna get 200 now though I'm not sure where it's going to come from
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Post by: edlowe
GrimDork wrote:Yeah, looks like a killer update that added a lot of things people were after.
The 'free' hardcover dungeon journal at $200 is gonna break my resolve. I'm gonna really want that, and I as already up to 150 for expansions. Guess they're gonna get 200 now though I'm not sure where it's going to come from
Yeah I worked out about $250 of stuff I want, so I'll just do what I do in each mantic ks, stick in as much as I can afford now and the rest in the pm. Just split it over two months
That hardback book certainly sounds tasty now tho.
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Post by: scarletsquig
I might drop down to $1 for now, the only reason I'm in this currently is for the exclusives, and it looks like I won't be able to get them all. It's a minimum of $41 extra to the $100 pledge to get all the KS exclusive minis currently, never mind the other exclusive stuff.
There are currently 12 KS exclusive minis which I think is a little bit nuts for any campaign, why fund all that and never release it? Going to have to pass on getting them all at some point, especially at $8 a pop.. Reaper Bones does exist after all. I do find the presence of exclusives to be a draw but after a certain point it has the opposite effect if the Ks just turns into one huge pile of models that are never going to see retail release.
No other Mantic KS has had this many exclusives.. or exclusive rulebooks... or this much resin.
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Post by: edlowe
Welcome to a frantic Mantic Wednesday.
This is a pretty big update, because we want to try and avoid bombarding you with emails.
So, since we’re so close to breaking our next stretch goal, this update is going to cover:
- The Adventurer's Companion
- The next stretch goal
- Add-on Wednesday
Sound good? Just to let you know, we will not post an update when the Molochs are achieved, just to make this more manageable!
First up, let’s tackle the Adventurer’s Companion in the Dungeon Master pledge level…
The Adventurer’s Companion
The Adventurer’s Companion contains advanced rules for Dungeon Saga allowing you to build you own adventures.
The Adventurer’s Companion includes a system for .
Your heroes will start in the entranceway to catacombs or a Dwarven Hold where, upon going through the first door, the system will generate the next room or corridor. As you explore further, the Dungeon itself will open out in front of you, leaving you to explore and revel in the mystery of the great unknown. It'll be different each time you play it!
There is also the , which you can use to design your own mission. We asked Jake Thornton, Games Designer behind Dungeon Saga, to share a few of his ideas on how this might work:
“The Necromancer player will create a dungeon according to a set of given parameters, and stock it with Monsters. The Monsters used add to a core set of scenario objectives that the Heroes will choose one from randomly. That way the Necromancer doesn’t know exactly what they are up to and so cannot make it completely impossible for the adventurers.”
These missions can also include personal objectives for each hero, and can work as one-off games or game in a linked campaign.
is a section devoted to the Monsters and Minions of Mantica, which you can use miniatures from the Kings of War line to represent if you want to.
This means that you can go beyond the basic boxed game contents of Undead and add-in new and interesting enemies. Perhaps your party stumbles across a moonlit enclosure infested with Lycanthropy-inflicted beasts, or they happen upon a dungeon-raiding group of goblins and their bizarre warmachines.
Even with all this great stuff in the book, we want to make this the best possible system for tabletop miniature role-playing that we can. With that, we present our next stretch goal.
When we beat this stretch goal, we will be able to:
- Write an in-depth background section describing the Mantica setting and the races that inhabit it.
- Add a comprehensive system for building your own heroes and villains.
- Add a character pad for keeping track of your newly-designed heroes on the tabletop.
- Boost your bonus cards and counters to include new equipment and spells.
BackgroundThe Background section will focus in on a number of different settings across Mantica, such as Dolgarth, the Halpi Mountains or maybe even Ophidia, and the dungeons that rest there. This will give your adventures a setting and allow you to delve deep into the history and backstory of Kings of War in the sort of depth we’ve never achieved before.
This detailed system will add a comprehensive list of races and classes, going beyond the heroes in the box game with new types such as the Witch or Engineer (see Ravenna and Gunn in the Add-on Wednesday section!)
You’ll be able to customize your hero’s stats, choose from a selection of abilities dependent on your character’s race and class, as well as special feats. There are also progression paths for each class, so as your hero gathers experience they “level up” and acquire new feats, skills and access to new equipment and spells.
You’ll also be able to build wicked villains as well - it's not only the good who go adventuring in the dungeons!
To help you keep track of your characters, we will include blank Character Mats for you to scribble down your new adventurers, as well as keep track of their equipment, injuries, skills, and buffs. New cards and counters will assist this as well.
With these detailed sections added in, the Adventurer’s Companion becomes a truly monumental tome of role-playing goodness. So here’s what we’re going to do…
To celebrate this enormous milestone stretch goal - $600,000 is an incredible amount – we have created a . This book is only available to Kickstarter Backers with a few available to round out the print quantity. This will be available as a $30 Optional Add-on – but it will be included free with all pledges of $200 or more!*
* includes any additional items you add on in the pledge manager. Does not include shipping. This book replaces the softback Adventurer’s Companion book in your pledge.
Shiny!
Add-on Wednesday
It is the final Add-on Wednesday of the campaign!
Week 4’s theme is all about the upgrades and add-ons you requested. Because this update is so big, we’re only going to highlight a few here. There are a few more on the front page which we will feature in a separate update, and a few still to add which we'll do as we freshen up the main page.
Ravenna – Female WitchThis great new miniature depicts the Witch, cast in Collector's Edition Resin exclusively for this Kickstarter. She can be used as a Witch, Druid or female mage character.
This new Dwarf figure is cast in Collector's Edition resin exclusively for this Kickstarter. He can be used to depict the Dwarfen Engineer class in the Adventurer's Companion.
Note: Resin kits are supplied unassembled and unpainted.
NEW! Dungeon Critters
Rats and spiders, classic dungeon critters for your heroes to (probably quite easily) overcome. Still, easy XP.
Note: Resin kits are supplied unassembled and unpainted.
Don’t stand there, it’s a trap! Get 3D sculpted counters to replace your card counters. Each tile has a different trap effect sculpted underneath the tile.
Note: Resin kits are supplied unassembled and unpainted.
Acrylic Counters upgrade all the different tokens in the core game to a harder-wearing material. The exact spec won't be finalised until the boxed game has been finished - we'll keep you updated. Also included are Large and Small acrylic range rulers, for working out line of sight and range for shooting and magic.
And finally…
This is a pretty huge update full of stuff!
We hope you like the final Add-on Wednesday, please check out the front page for the full range of what’s on offer. There might be a few surprise options available on the weekend as well
As for the stretch goal, let’s break down those barriers and get the word out – 4 days to go and plenty still to come!!
Chilling Wargamers at 7pm British Summer Time, and Forja y Dezvan at 9pm. Tune in to find out more! We'll post links in the comments and our Facebook page when it's on.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Well it looks like we're slogging our way toward $600K now. Just broke the $570K mark now so the Molochs are unlocked too. Happy days
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Post by: GrimDork
I'm not actually sure what I really need to add to spend the gap between DM+expansions and $200, I guess hope for extra expansions. I know I want the hardcover book though.
Resin traps and critters, no thanks. Will have to double check everything to make sure though, they added a lot of goodies to nom. Doors may be a paid add-on too, its been confirmed that they will exist but I don't think as to what their material or level of inclusion is.
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Post by: Alpharius
scarletsquig wrote:
No other Mantic KS has had this many exclusives.. or exclusive rulebooks... or this much resin.
Some of Mantic's previous issues may be causing campaigns to not perform how they'd like, and as such, they're looking for other ways to drive up totals?
Who knows though?
But it does seem a bit odd, and counter-Mantic.
I'd rather they focus on quality concerns as a way to improve campaign performance.
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Post by: greenskin lynn
GrimDork wrote:I'm not actually sure what I really need to add to spend the gap between DM+expansions and $200, I guess hope for extra expansions. I know I want the hardcover book though.
Resin traps and critters, no thanks. Will have to double check everything to make sure though, they added a lot of goodies to nom. Doors may be a paid add-on too, its been confirmed that they will exist but I don't think as to what their material or level of inclusion is.
they stated in the comments section a bit ago the doors will be a stretch goal
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Post by: Compel
GrimDork wrote:I'm not actually sure what I really need to add to spend the gap between DM+expansions and $200, I guess hope for extra expansions. I know I want the hardcover book though.
100 + Orc Expansion 25 + Abyssal Expansion 25 + Legendary Heroes 25 + Heroes of Mantica 25 = 200
Job done?
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Post by: GrimDork
Nah, I don't want any resin, I've got a 2 year old daughter and would like to keep this as something I can box up carry around and play without worrying about bits snapping off.
The first half though, yes. I mean, I get the draw of legendary heroes, but it would only apply to the base party. Probably just use dudes that look meaner out of my bones2 set.
Probably more like
100 + $25galahir + $25crypts + $25 expansion 3 +$25 expansion 4
Or maybe if no expansion 4 but they add-on some big nasties or something.
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Post by: Bolognesus
The KOW model add-ons are decent value too. Mix of mostly restic and HIPS (with some metal), so reasonably childproof.
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Post by: GrimDork
I swear someone mentioned Ronnie saying something about a big monster during his live chat/interview thing. Might be one of those "we'll never make it there but if we do'' stretchgoals though. I have a lot of the undead already and don't need the orcs. Good value though, yes! I guarantee I'll find a place to spend the money and wish I had more invested to boot
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Post by: adhuin
I went:
100+$16(2xCritters)+$15(more furniture)+$8(traps)+$5(dice bag) +$10(resin counters) +$50 (2 texpansions) + $10 shipping = $214.
The actual game is secondary for me. I'm mostly in for stuff to run RPG:s: Tiles, Furnitures and Monsters.
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Post by: Bolognesus
Is there any way to get the basilean hero (ibrahim?) in resin yet? I can't find it so far.
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Post by: Fugazi
I keep waiting for an excuse to pledge and I just don't see it. Can someone explain how the Adventure Journal isn't full of info that ought to be in the retail box anyway? How is this a stretch goal? (I don't mean to dampen everyone's enthusiasm; maybe I'm kickstarted out.)
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Post by: GrimDork
Hrm had a video where Ronnie mentioned the big undead worm thing, but I guess it didn't work. The dungeon journal includes a lot of extra scenarios that aren't going to be in the retail box, like those that belong to KS exclusive characters and the like. There will certainly be some difference. Creator Mantic Games less than a minute ago
@ GrimDork - Scenarios for your Kickstarter exclusive, The DKH classic scenarios, short story - these are all in the Journal.
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Post by: Bioptic
Adventurer's companion in the retail box is what's being upgraded though! The goal is to develop some more fluff and rules - turn it into something more akin to Warhammer Quest's beast of a roleplay manual. And that costs money and time.
http://users.telenet.be/WHQ_TheHouse/Docs/WHQ%20-%20Roleplay%20Book%20v1.01.pdf
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Post by: Fugazi
Yeah I get it, I just don't believe that they weren't going to do this anyway.
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Post by: rosafari
I think this KS has been far slicker than Mantic's previous efforts, a well managed and paced campaign that is probably going to end slightly above their projections - remember it was always intended as a 'small' KS - and as such should be considered a success. But personally I find the whole product incredibly sterile and unexciting, particularly the sculpts, and I'm far from convinced the (very good) DKH two player rules are an ideal base to build a five player dungeon crawler on.
I think I'm only going to pledge for a single expansion, if at all - that gets me a nice variety pack of figures and few useful cards and tiles delivered for a pocket money price ($25/£15), and judging by the greenskin artwork in the last update one or two stretch goal heroes might end up in each expansion too. What's holding me back from even that is the choice between overdone greenskins (only the mawbeasts and hopefully new orcling sculpts appeal) or the demons of Generica..
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Post by: Azazelx
It somehow feels like there should be more expansions. I can (possibly) see myself staying in for the EB and just adding the scenario packs in via PM. I don't see anything else interesting here. I dunno. I'm pretty underwhelmed. I'm not even excited by the models, being BG plastic, I can appreciate them, but I can also take or leave them, and paying Mantic of all people for resin exclusives, sight unseen seems like a fool's errand.
I alternately might drop the EB down to $1 if I need the money for other stuff and see how the game is looking in the PM in 8 months when it's close to shipping. After all, $100 or $150 is an awful lot to plunk down this far in advance for a game you hope might be good fun to play. Especially when nothing about it actually excites you.
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Post by: Pacific
Hmm, glad to see it confirmed that this 'advanced' style stuff is actually going to be included! Although as others have said it was always going to be the intent.
Like the sounds of it though, and if a few extra $10k will pay Jake Thornton's overtime for a few months to write these rules, then so be it!
I assume the hardback collectors book is just a nicer version of the softback version already present, or do you get extras with it?
 Fugazi wrote:I keep waiting for an excuse to pledge and I just don't see it. Can someone explain how the Adventure Journal isn't full of info that ought to be in the retail box anyway? How is this a stretch goal? (I don't mean to dampen everyone's enthusiasm; maybe I'm kickstarted out.)
I've highlighted a bit of your text there Fugazi. I do think this is becoming more and more of a thing. The first few 'big' KS'es on Dakka were absolute roller coaster-rides of threads (Sedition Wars, Zombicide etc.) but I do wonder if the novelty and excitement is starting to wear off a little. Now, there just seems to be the cold, hard reality of miniatures per dollar and resin/plastic type
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Post by: Azazelx
Fugazi wrote:I keep waiting for an excuse to pledge and I just don't see it. Can someone explain how the Adventure Journal isn't full of info that ought to be in the retail box anyway? How is this a stretch goal? (I don't mean to dampen everyone's enthusiasm; maybe I'm kickstarted out.)
The Adventure Journal is the stuff they talked about a lot pre- KS, and is the only reason I'm here at all. It's certainly the only decent way to justify the $100 KS asking price. Automatically Appended Next Post: scarletsquig wrote:There's always a pledging spike whenever a new expansion gets added, if they're able to release another two expansions that will get the average pledge up to around $200 (the usual average is $225 or so).
Still think they missed a trick by not doing hard plastic dungeon builder sprues in addition to the card, would be very cool to have some nicely painted 3d textured surfaces to game on rather than card tiles which will warp eventually.
At least Dwarven Forge backers will have something to be happy about since the game is completely compatible with those tiles.
Agree that something big like Reaper's $10 dragons would really help at this point. Mars Attacks had some really nice huge pieces like the bugs and DKQ needs more girbblies.
Plastic floor tiles aren't really worth the cost of creation for something that wants to be a mass market wargame and step into the shoes of something like Heroquest - and also doesn't have the wiser appeal of something like ruined walls or spaceman walls. I get it that you'd really like them yourself, but they clearly wouldn't be worth the extra cost for Mantic.
Agreed on the embiggened models. The D&D games' large monsters have a "ok, it's serious time now" feel to them when they're plonked down on the table. This game has lots of minions, a few "ogres" and not much else. The end bosses are normal size.
I think they're missing a trick by not including many, many more monster profiles in the Adventurer's Journal, and instead sticking only to their own fairly bland sets of Undead and Orc profiles when people really want Dragons and Hydras. Plus the other army list profiles.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
WOW.
So I just looked at that PDF for Warhammer Quest. I've never actually seen it.
WOW.
That is a hell of a lot of game in there.
If Mantic can match that, I think I'm set.
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Post by: Pacific
Azazelx wrote: Fugazi wrote:I keep waiting for an excuse to pledge and I just don't see it. Can someone explain how the Adventure Journal isn't full of info that ought to be in the retail box anyway? How is this a stretch goal? (I don't mean to dampen everyone's enthusiasm; maybe I'm kickstarted out.)
The Adventure Journal is the stuff they talked about a lot pre- KS, and is the only reason I'm here at all. It's certainly the only decent way to justify the $100 KS asking price.
I'm wondering if Mantic have shot themselves in the foot with some of their previous KS, as this one still seems like a really good deal to me, even if it ended right now. I mean, how many miniatures and stuff do you expect for $100? This one perhaps won't risk me being buried alive when the box of miniatures are delivered to my door, in the way that a couple of the previous ones have, but it still seems like a good deal especially when you factor in the free P&P.
Of course it helps the exchange rate is so good this way around (think it works out about £60 UK monies) - Azazelx, I'm sure it should be even more pronounced for you (isn't that about the price of a box of 40k terminators in Aus?!)
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Post by: Baragash
I am too, but I know that's because my level of whelm is directly related to my knowledge of the advanced rules, which at present is directly proportional to my knowledge of particle physics.
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Post by: GrimDork
Read the quirkworthy blog updates, that's as much information as we're likely to get. Sounds fairly nuanced for a boardgame, bordering on RPG that autoincludes minis. But the money isn't in hand, the development hasn't happened yet and the rules simply don't exist yet.
I'm willing to buy the rules on faith, and if I turn around and get burned by something simpler than I had hoped for there will still be a fair amount of plastic goodies to work through, though I"ll be much much more wary of the fantasy skirmish if that ever comes to exist and hits kickstarter.
There seem to be an awful lot of tiles too, I realize we probably aren't going to hit a dollar per mini unless we fund a couple more expansions before it's over (in the base pledge I mean), or they just start throwing goodies in there... but there's more to it than just models and it's things that I don't have yet.
For people who already have a similar board game, I can understand the lack of whelm.
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Post by: Azazelx
Pacific wrote:
I'm wondering if Mantic have shot themselves in the foot with some of their previous KS, as this one still seems like a really good deal to me, even if it ended right now. I mean, how many miniatures and stuff do you expect for $100? This one perhaps won't risk me being buried alive when the box of miniatures are delivered to my door, in the way that a couple of the previous ones have, but it still seems like a good deal especially when you factor in the free P&P.
P&P isn't free for me.
But here's the rub:
These are 1-piece plastic boardgame figures in coloured plastic. I don't value those anywhere nearly as highly as I do proper miniatures.
I don't value Mantic's models as especially worthwhile in terms of asking price, with the exception of the undead. I find the vast majority of their sculpts to be sub-par.
The resin masters shown so far for this look good, granted, but Mantic doesn't have a good track record of going from concept to sculpt.
Those skeletons with their tiny-thin limbs are going to warp like a melon-fether and be painful to reset when they are cast in thin, mould-lined, boardgame PVC.
So, given that I'd mostly be pledging for the non-miniatures parts, with the exception of the trolls (that look pretty good) and perhaps the Molochs (if they turn out ok - a gamble to be sure given their track record). So I'm most interested in the rules, tiles, etc.
So in terms of miniatures, the value of this package is quite low indeed. I'm sure they'll be ok to use for a boardgame, but I don't value them highly in the same way that I don't value the Ravenloft figures all that highly, either. Or most of my Bones.
Of course it helps the exchange rate is so good this way around (think it works out about £60 UK monies) - Azazelx, I'm sure it should be even more pronounced for you (isn't that about the price of a box of 40k terminators in Aus?!)
Well, if I were stupid enough to buy GW stuff locally, it might be. But I only cherry-pick specific GW proiducts locally as I need them, and get anything else with a big discount from US-RRP
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Post by: carlos13th
I have to admit I am very much over large amount of miniatures because I have to paint them which will probably never happen with numbers this larger. Not to mention that mantic doesn't always deliver on quality in their kickstarters even if their rules are generally very good.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
A warning: be sure to use gaming specific search terms when looking for alternative dungeon furnishings, especially at work.
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Post by: carlos13th
Hahahahaa
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Post by: GrimDork
Yeah Dungeon Sagas itself sounds like a pretty heavy handed BDSM book series come to think of it...
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Post by: timetowaste85
Whips and chains resin expansion pack!!
And a panting leather-daddy named "Bear" as a KS exclusive hero.
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Post by: JoshInJapan
timetowaste85 wrote:Whips and chains resin expansion pack!!
And a panting leather-daddy named "Bear" as a KS exclusive hero.
Is that a veiled Brian Blessed reference?
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Post by: carlos13th
Does the game end when you say your safe word?
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Post by: timetowaste85
I have no idea who Brian Blessed is. So no. Although it is amusing that my name is Brian.
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Post by: carlos13th
This guy
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Post by: Alpharius
Please stay on topic - thanks!
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
scarletsquig wrote:There are currently 12 KS exclusive minis which I think is a little bit nuts for any campaign, why fund all that and never release it? Going to have to pass on getting them all at some point, especially at $8 a pop.. Reaper Bones does exist after all. I do find the presence of exclusives to be a draw but after a certain point it has the opposite effect if the Ks just turns into one huge pile of models that are never going to see retail release.
No other Mantic KS has had this many exclusives.. or exclusive rulebooks... or this much resin.
I concur - I hate KS exclusives. Luckily here substitute mini's aren't a problem, indeed I doubt I will use any of the models in the box. But yes if there was anything significantly unique about the exclusives I would drop the game as I hate the concept and I have no desire to introduce games to friends they can't get complete copies of. Automatically Appended Next Post:  rosafari wrote:But personally I find the whole product incredibly sterile and unexciting, particularly the sculpts, and I'm far from convinced the (very good) DKH two player rules are an ideal base to build a five player dungeon crawler on.
Snap. Like a burning pony or whatever my cool daughter says these days.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I were going wild on this campaign?
95 EB, 25 exp, 25 exp. Then Dungeon raiders,30, for the mincer (for a fun scenario), war trombone and wiz (both for blood bowl sideline).
175. I guess I could go for the acrylic counters, despite Mantics awful record there. 15.
Still $10 short though... Some resin counters? I already have plastic piles of bones from my Mantic undead.
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Post by: carlos13th
I'm in agreements about the exclusives not being appealing. Especially exclusive rules and scenarios. I don't mind if you want to alternative versions of a model or something like that but it's frustrating to see people who don't kickstart a game unable to have the full experience.
Also a lack of retail release often means those characters are going to be poorly supported within the actual rules.
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Post by: Talking Banana
I wonder if Mantic upped the KS exclusives for Dungeon Sagas because Dreadball Xtreme seemed to have the fewest KS exclusives yet, and it didn't end well?
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Post by: Yonan
 Vermonter wrote:I wonder if Mantic upped the KS exclusives for Dungeon Sagas because Dreadball Xtreme seemed to have the fewest KS exclusives yet, and it didn't end well?
What didn't go well about DBX? $625K+ and the development of 12 teams is pretty good for a sequel.
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Post by: Talking Banana
Yonan wrote: Vermonter wrote:I wonder if Mantic upped the KS exclusives for Dungeon Sagas because Dreadball Xtreme seemed to have the fewest KS exclusives yet, and it didn't end well?
What didn't go well about DBX? $625K+ and the development of 12 teams is pretty good for a sequel.
Zero last day craziness, replaced by a lot of backsliding at the end. There were other factors besides the lack of many exclusives (Frenzy was a huge mistake), but it was Mantic's first KS to go out with a whimper rather than a bang. I feel very secure saying "it didn't end well."
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Post by: Pacific
The problem is Vermonter, if you say that most people have that image of the Japanese guy walking up the stairs, with his wife around the corner in bed with someone else, and a load of knives and swords on display on the bedroom wall.. (to use an internet reference..)
I quite like some of the new exclusives - the 'kroot-'like Druid guy and the dwarven engineer are pretty nice.
Also, there has not been a single news item for HQ25 during the entirety of this Kickstarter campaign, which is making me nervous and my left-mouse button hover over the increased pledge that much more likely for this one..
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Post by: Azazelx
scarletsquig wrote:There's always a pledging spike whenever a new expansion gets added, if they're able to release another two expansions that will get the average pledge up to around $200 (the usual average is $225 or so).
Just to reiterate a point I missed up above.
There's 3 days to go. It's incredibly unlikely that they're going to be able to release two more expansions and fill each one of them out properly to the point where they're on a value-parity with the initial two. Let's be blunt here - the Abyssal add-on isn't properly filled out yet and at the rare we're going it will take most of the next 3 days just to do that.
scarletsquig wrote:I might drop down to $1 for now, the only reason I'm in this currently is for the exclusives, and it looks like I won't be able to get them all. It's a minimum of $41 extra to the $100 pledge to get all the KS exclusive minis currently, never mind the other exclusive stuff.
There are currently 12 KS exclusive minis which I think is a little bit nuts for any campaign, why fund all that and never release it? Going to have to pass on getting them all at some point, especially at $8 a pop.. Reaper Bones does exist after all. I do find the presence of exclusives to be a draw but after a certain point it has the opposite effect if the Ks just turns into one huge pile of models that are never going to see retail release.
No other Mantic KS has had this many exclusives.. or exclusive rulebooks... or this much resin.
When you're looking at the $1 pledge, and bemoaning the excessive KS exclusives of a Mantic KS, there might just be something wrong with it.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
timetowaste85 wrote:I have no idea who Brian Blessed is. So no. Although it is amusing that my name is Brian.
This might help you figure out who he is too lol
Last night was the 2nd biggest jump (after day 1) in the campaign so far with a whopping $30,593.00
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Post by: NTRabbit
The question now is basically "is there a sea of people who have starred it earlier to see how it goes and waiting for the 48 hour warning to pledge, or is it like DBX where the majority of potential backers pledged day 1?"
DBX was pretty niche, I think a dungeon crawler has a better chance of reeling in more BGG types in the last two days, especially given how funded it is already - the more funding a game has on KS the more it gets, because people see all the unlocks and think "I don't want to miss out on that", which kicks up the numbers and more people think "Look at all those unlocks and the skyrocketing backer count, I don't want to miss out on that". Tiny Epic Kingdoms is a good example of that effect, a neat but not exactly groundbreaking game that ran on heavily, albeit at a much lower buy in http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coe/tiny-epic-kingdoms/#chart-daily
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Post by: angelofvengeance
NTRabbit wrote:The question now is basically "is there a sea of people who have starred it earlier to see how it goes and waiting for the 48 hour warning to pledge, or is it like DBX where the majority of potential backers pledged day 1?"
DBX was pretty niche, I think a dungeon crawler has a better chance of reeling in more BGG types in the last two days, especially given how funded it is already - the more funding a game has on KS the more it gets, because people see all the unlocks and think "I don't want to miss out on that", which kicks up the numbers and more people think "Look at all those unlocks and the skyrocketing backer count, I don't want to miss out on that". Tiny Epic Kingdoms is a good example of that effect, a neat but not exactly groundbreaking game that ran on heavily, albeit at a much lower buy in http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coe/tiny-epic-kingdoms/#chart-daily
I think Deadzone is a great example of last minute pledging, Mantic wise...
Though that's probably down to the obscene amount of Battlezone terrain kits people pledged for as well as the boxed sets of Deadzone. I don't think it'll happen on the same level as this one but there's time yet! Automatically Appended Next Post: 600K locked in... Automatically Appended Next Post: New stretch goal: $615,000
[size=18]Update #41
The Hounds of Hell
UNLOCKED - Adventurer’s Companion Upgrade
Done and done. That’s a major upgrade to the Adventurer’s Companion locked in!
This is an important milestone goal. It means we can create an even better product and excellent addition to the game. For veteran players who want to go beyond the prescribed scenarios, to new adventurers wanting to delve into the detail of the world, designing your own quests or characters, this book, and the upgrade you helped fund, will mean that we can develop a tabletop miniatures role-playing game of quality, depth and - most importantly - fun.
This campaign is by no means over and we've still got plenty to focus on over the final days. Demons and a dangerous big beasty are on the horizon - and it'll take some Legendary Heroes to slay them all. Oh, and maybe doors to hide behind...
So, next up, we’re going back on an Abyssal focus with a new creature added to the set to improve the variety of enemies at your disposal – and further improve the value of the set!
New Stretch Goals!
$615,000 BONUS Abyssal Hellhounds!
There is an ancient mortal superstition which says that evil is a threefold instrument, attempting to seduce mortals with lies of the eye, the ear and the tongue. The Hellhound speaks to this most primal superstition with three huge, demonic heads and snapping jaws full of enormous teeth. Used as hunting dogs by the denizens of the Abyss, these terrifying beasts are as ferocious as they are ugly and as nimble as a creature many times smaller. They are unpredictable and prone to attack anything within reach, friend or foe, which explains the tendency of their ‘handlers’ to set them loose at the earliest opportunity in a battle.
f we hit this stretch goal, we will produce the mighty Hellhounds and will:
- Include two of these miniatures in the Infernal Crypts expansion pack ($25)!
- Include one of this miniature in a pledge of Dungeon Master ($100 and Early Bird)!
Let’s get it locked in.
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Post by: GrimDork
-edit- No point in arguing about things. Totally going to finish crypts in 30-45k though, going to hit it fast. Third expansion and doors in for sure. In any case, hell hounds look awesome, I won't mind having a little pack of those
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Post by: Yonan
Daaawwwwww cute widdle puppy!
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Post by: judgedoug
highlord tamburlaine wrote:
WOW.
So I just looked at that PDF for Warhammer Quest. I've never actually seen it.
WOW.
That is a hell of a lot of game in there.
If Mantic can match that, I think I'm set.
Mantic won't, but I'd honestly prefer they didn't - while WQ is an absolutely brilliant idea, the execution of the game fell apart over any length of time. I don't know how many hundreds - yes - of hours our group spent running campaigns (with entire Warhammer figure collections broken out for those monster tables), trying to fix horribly broken things as we went. You can tell most of the extended campaign rules weren't playtested, just written down by a bunch of good buddies over a couple drinking sessions.
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Post by: Yonan
It's only bad if they can't pull it off. Mantics rules so far have been great in my experience and I'd much rather they went for it. Maybe not now though, not sure. But they *do* have a year and some good playtesters and... whatever SS is, which should help a lot!
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Post by: angelofvengeance
If these guys are big enough, my brother said he wants to use one of them as Karanak, the Chosen Flesh Hound of Khorne for his 40K Daemons force.
Much better than his current model IMO.
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Post by: timetowaste85
I know it's a tangent, but I used 6th Ed (fantasy) flesh hounds to make Karanak: 2 extra heads, and a small amount of greenstuff fur. It worked really well, and looks completely natural.
I love the hell hound look, and the molochs. Just not the lessers.
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Post by: Pacific
Just hit the $615,000 at time of writing, assume next target will be going up shortly.
Intrigued by what the 'big beast' mentioned in the previous email is going to be - hopefully they haven't left it too late to introduce this kind of stuff, although the pledge totals have really jumped up the last day or so.
Obviously this isn't going to get close to the 1.2million of Deadzone, what did Dreadball Xtreme reach in the end?
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Post by: edlowe
Pacific wrote:Just hit the $615,000 at time of writing, assume next target will be going up shortly.
Intrigued by what the 'big beast' mentioned in the previous email is going to be - hopefully they haven't left it too late to introduce this kind of stuff, although the pledge totals have really jumped up the last day or so.
Obviously this isn't going to get close to the 1.2million of Deadzone, what did Dreadball Xtreme reach in the end?
Dbx was just shy of 2500 backers and raised 575k, dungeon saga is on 4000+ backers at 615k+
Ds at average $153 per backer
dbx ended at $232 per backer
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Post by: ced1106
NTRabbit wrote:DBX was pretty niche, I think a dungeon crawler has a better chance of reeling in more BGG types in the last two days, especially given how funded it is already - the more funding a game has on KS the more it gets, because people see all the unlocks and think "I don't want to miss out on that", which kicks up the numbers and more people think "Look at all those unlocks and the skyrocketing backer count, I don't want to miss out on that". Tiny Epic Kingdoms is a good example of that effect, a neat but not exactly groundbreaking game that ran on heavily, albeit at a much lower buy in http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/coe/tiny-epic-kingdoms/#chart-daily
BGG'ers aren't too happy that they haven't been shown the advanced rules (other boardgame KS would have shown them in gameplay videos), nor know the MSRP of the retail box. They're also less interested in mini's, especially if the extra mini's aren't necessary for gameplay, and definitely if they require assembly or are expensive. BGG'ers *know* the game will be available retail, and at 30% off MSRP, so have a good reason not to pledge. So I'm seeing BGG'ers waiting for more information, and, so far, not getting it.
Mantic's trying to sell a boardgame product as a miniatures campaign.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Hellhounds unlocked- now for Legendary heroes
Update #42
Next up, it’s time to trick out some heroes.
Now then, we've added nearly 3,000 backers since the last time we talked about Legendary Heroes, so here's a recap on how Character Progression works in the Core Rules. Remember that the Adventurer's Companion includes a much more sophisicated system.
When the likes of Ghost, Trolls or Demons, you're going to need more than your trusty broad sword to combat the darkness...
Character progression in the Core Rules is very simple. Your heroes will be able to acquire and use items such as potions and scrolls, but will also be able to retrieve and use equipment.
At some point during the story, your heroes will start acquiring magical items and, better still, stat and skill buffs that allow them to take on the more powerful enemies.
When this happens, players will turn over their Character Mat to reveal their upgraded selves. You’ll be better in a fight and have new spells, feats and special abilities. You’ll collect equipment cards and outfit your heroes to better deal with the task at hand.
You will in fact have achieved Legendary status.
All of this is tracked by your Character Mat – your hero model will remain the same throughout your adventure.
However, we’re a miniatures company at heart, so we've come up with the following to get your heroic adventurer better represented on the tabletop!
NEW STRETCH GOAL
$640,000 OPTIONAL ADD-ON Legendary Heroes!
Legendary Hratth
Legendary Ibrahim
Legendary Ally McSween
Legendary Venetia Beriassor
If we hit this stretch goal, we will produce a set of Legendary heroes for Hratth, Ibrahim, Ally McSween and Venetia Berisassor, and make them available as Optional Add-ons, produced exclusively for this Kickstarter in resin.
These new figures will each be in unique heroic poses and feature new equipment, whether that’s armour or magic weapons.
Each one can be used to switch out your standard hero to their new more powerful version, or make great alternate models for the Fighter, Paladin, Thief and Cleric classes!
Next:
Will something rise to take command of the forces of the Abyss? The Destroyer is coming.
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Post by: GrimDork
I could care less about that stretch, but I know some people want all of the heroes to have an epic mode and we're damn near a third done with it already anyway. The salamander doesn't look much different though?
Very curious as to what this destroyer is, if it's the boss or a large troll sized monster, or a boss that IS a large troll (or larger) sized monster... Possibly that demon lord guy we've seen, or maybe something different. Wonder if it'll be the last update to the infernal crypts which would put it at 2 models lower (but some may be larger?) or not.
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Post by: ced1106
Designer's thoughts on random dungeon generation. Well, at least he's honest!
http://quirkworthy.com/2014/08/28/random-dungeon-sagas/
Last I heard about HQ25, the rules were going public sometime between September and October, and the release is delayed for several months.
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Post by: NTRabbit
I'm thinking it's going to be a big demon on a 50mm base like Hoggar, the undead troll lord
ced1106 wrote:
BGG'ers aren't too happy that they haven't been shown the advanced rules (other boardgame KS would have shown them in gameplay videos), nor know the MSRP of the retail box. They're also less interested in mini's, especially if the extra mini's aren't necessary for gameplay, and definitely if they require assembly or are expensive. BGG'ers *know* the game will be available retail, and at 30% off MSRP, so have a good reason not to pledge. So I'm seeing BGG'ers waiting for more information, and, so far, not getting it.
Mantic's trying to sell a boardgame product as a miniatures campaign.
Well someone is jumping in as the numbers keep climbing, and my comment was more about the style of game - DBX is a miniatures sports game, which is a lot more niche than a dungeon crawler and less likely to have broader appeal.
Funny though, before everything was unlocked the campaign was bad because there weren't enough minis, now a lot of it is unlocked the campaign is bad because they have too many minis!
Right now they're only 47 backers away from the total Deadzone backers, which was a wildly successful project, so the campaign can't have been run that badly 
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Post by: Azazelx
Pacific wrote:Just hit the $615,000 at time of writing, assume next target will be going up shortly.
Intrigued by what the 'big beast' mentioned in the previous email is going to be - hopefully they haven't left it too late to introduce this kind of stuff, although the pledge totals have really jumped up the last day or so.
Any "big beast"-type thing they want to add to the core game will have already been factored in (and paid for by now). It will give them the flexibility to make it a small, achievable stretch goal, or if things slow down, a "hey, cool! freebie!"
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Post by: GrimDork
I'll agree with Az here. If they intend to do doors and some big skeletal wyrm at the end then those things will happen. Either like Az says or they may use the old ' hey we're totally unlocking that stuff with the pledge manager' routine. They'll take care of us according to plan I'm sure.
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Post by: Azazelx
NTRabbit wrote:
Funny though, before everything was unlocked the campaign was bad because there weren't enough minis, now a lot of it is unlocked the campaign is bad because they have too many minis!
Funny though - you can always make that kind of point - and about anything - simply by choosing two different things that two different people have said, and then paint everyone ( except oneself, of course) with a broad brush. Because after all, Only me and perhaps my couple of mates are real people here - the rest of you are just "the internet" or "dakka" - faceless hiveminds.
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Post by: NTRabbit
Point was you can't please everyone all of the time
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Post by: Da Boss
Random dungeon generation with AI actually makes this a much more attractive prospect for me. I upped my pledge to include the Abyssals (the hellhounds and Molochs seem like they'll be good to have). I hope Jake can pull it off.
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Post by: Pacific
Well one thing is for sure, Mantic have got some bloody good artists working for them. The standard of artwork, from the sketches of individuals to the 'cover' type serious paintings, has been fantastic.
Can I ask, what exactly is the difference between these legendary heroes and the ones that were already available?
Not to de-rail the thread, but I think isn't that just supposition from forumites on the Spanish Gamezone forums? I don't think there has been any news at all..
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Post by: overtyrant
Pledged a dollar so if my mood takes me I may get the game and stuff in the PM though there is a good amount of stuff in there I'm more along Azazelxs thinking that I don't value it as war game miniatures but board game miniatures.
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Post by: Azazelx
Of course, but the way you wrote it makes out like the same people are arguing both ends, and you're the only sensible and clear-headed one in the (virtual) room.
Which of course is wrong. Because it's me.
I'd like to see as many stats as possible for as much as possible included in the Tome of Depravity. I'd like to see more fully-fleshed out expacks. I'm simply saying that things like "only another half-million dollars in four days - a couple of expansion packs would do it" isn't that great - especially when there's a fair bit of chicken and egg involved.
The new SG being for paid add-ons also doesn't especially excite, either. I like the concept art, but don't yet trust Mantic to deliver on sculpts. But better at this stage to finish filling out the Demon expack and maybe start on the next one if they want a bump. Speaking of all this miniature talk - if the original set of resins were in fact free and not a $25 add-on as we saw the older tile for, I'd personally be much happier with my own perceived value of the package.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pacific wrote:Well one thing is for sure, Mantic have got some bloody good artists working for them. The standard of artwork, from the sketches of individuals to the 'cover' type serious paintings, has been fantastic.
Can I ask, what exactly is the difference between these legendary heroes and the ones that were already available?
A lot of it appears to be Heath Foley. He turned out some great artwork for the original KoW KS. Shame the figures didn't turn out as well - which is one of those ongoing causes for concern for the time being. As for the Legendary heroes, from my brief glance, they seem to be more blinged-out than the original versions.
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Post by: GrimDork
While I understand the value of resin, I don't personally want any for this project. I like being able to toss minis into a bin with pretty fair odds of not snapping their delicate parts
If only they did a nameless/cthulhu expansion.. then we'd get enough funds for the 4th one too
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Post by: Azazelx
I'd be alright with a separate set of resins for the PCs as a KS and later, Mantic Webstore-exclusive freebie (as well as the BG plastic ones).
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I like working with resin, but I always saw this as a straight board game, and as such would much prefer straight board game pieces.
That said I already added funds for the KoW pack with the trolls and the mincer, and am giving some honest thought to the resin versions as it stands, as they look like nice designs, but I doubt they'd ever see their intended usage.
I strongly agree that they need to cram as much as they can stat wise and rule wise in that book.
I want to have a legit use for some Mantic ogres in the game! I'm shocked they aren't planning on using any!
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Post by: MangoMadness
GrimDork wrote:
If only they did a nameless/cthulhu expansion.. then we'd get enough funds for the 4th one too
More bloody cthulhu models? Surely the other 40 odd kickstarters have filled that niche by now 
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Post by: GrimDork
Dunno man, seems like people are still all over it. I don't particularly care what goes into a third expansion, just seems to me like that one would draw in extra backers. And it could be more generic horror too, maybe Ravenloft esque.
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Post by: Fugazi
Pacific wrote:
I've highlighted a bit of your text there Fugazi. I do think this is becoming more and more of a thing. The first few 'big' KS'es on Dakka were absolute roller coaster-rides of threads (Sedition Wars, Zombicide etc.) but I do wonder if the novelty and excitement is starting to wear off a little. Now, there just seems to be the cold, hard reality of miniatures per dollar and resin/plastic type
Very fair point. And I think the most experienced kickstarter-users, like Mantic, have been much more savvy about their price points (which is smarter for them but means less crazy deals for us).
I was going to complain about their concept art and likely resulting sculpts, but I pulled out my old HQ set, and you know what? The Mantic stuff will be fine for exactly this kinda thing. It's still not hitting my personal sweet spot, but again, Reaper and Dwarven Forge did well by me.
(I'd still prefer to know now the exact contents of the retail box (the non- KS box), but I suppose I have a rough idea.)
Oh, does anyone know the size of the resin bone pile counters? 25mm or 50mm? EDIT: Found it. They're 25mm. They replace the cardboard bone counters as shown in the gameplay video. If I end up pledging, I'll use them for bases, as they look pretty cool. (That transparent skull and resin bone pile add-on is the coolest thing in the whole KS, for me at least.)
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Post by: GrimDork
Almost have to be 25mm, they'd take up 4 squares on the tiles if they were 50mm and a lot of corridors aren't even that big.
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Post by: Compel
I hate to say it, but a Cthulhu style expansion could really work.
Underwater caves, rules for pools, deep water, tentacles reaching out of pools and attacking anything that passes by.
Perhaps go the 'Forbidden island' route in some ways, have water rushing into the dungeon, with the tide creeping in every turn, making the previous cubes / rooms in the dungeon inaccessible.
And that's before getting to the bad guys.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
stop teasing me with ideas that may never come to fruition!
Water based dungeons are the BEST Jerry, THE BEST!
Seriously, that would be way too cool. Ain't going to happen. Let all the heroes drown. Too much fun.
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Post by: Commissar-Danno
Sorry if this has been asked, but has anyone asked on the KS if in the adventurer companion that there will be fire arm rules?
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Post by: GrimDork
I don't think it has... If there are stats for the dwarfs of human armies in there... some of them use guns.. but I'm not sure. Might have to try and remember to ask that tomorrow.
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Post by: Yonan
We won't get everything we want in this KS, but this should be easily expandable rules-wise later on with ebooks which Mantic put out for decent prices. Rules to use their other armies and stuff, like their awesome trolls.
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Post by: Azazelx
Burn the witch!
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Post by: ced1106
Well, there *are* three different audiences here:
* Boardgamers: They want to know what's in the base game, and how much it will sell for, because their alternative is the OLGS and it's 30% discount. While they want enough bits to play the game, miniature quality has little importance to them, and extra models none at all. Somehow, boardgamers don't see using the components in other games. To get their money, you show them the rulebook and/or gameplay videos.
* Kings of War gamers: They want mini's they can use in their KoW armies. Miniatures need to be compatible with existing KoW miniatures. To get their money, you add more miniatures, make them compatible with KoW, and sell them at prices lower than KoW retail.
* Collectors: They want mini's to paint. Resin.
Personally, I think they should have done a KS for both DS and a new KoW army, something like a humanoid one, because a humanoid army could have the greatest range of miniatures yet not need a complete set (eg. orcs, then goblins, then trolls, then ogres, then goblin wolf riders, then...). Expansions would be free mini-expansion SG's. Meanwhile, add-ons would be existing sculpts, and resin figures. The base game would come with the 32-page KoW ruleset. So, by the end of the campaign, your $100 pledge goal would have the DS base game, and several DS mini-expansions, with the humanoid lot usable as an army for KoW. In effect, the DS KS would also be a stealth marketing tool to introduce boardgamers into the KoW miniatures game so Mantic could get even *more* money from them retail...
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Post by: greenskin lynn
but first check to see if he floats.
but yea, to stay on topic, when i saw the resin hero stretch i was rather disappointed
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Post by: Commissar-Danno
ced1106 wrote:
Well, there *are* three different audiences here:
* Boardgamers: They want to know what's in the base game, and how much it will sell for, because their alternative is the OLGS and it's 30% discount. While they want enough bits to play the game, miniature quality has little importance to them, and extra models none at all. Somehow, boardgamers don't see using the components in other games. To get their money, you show them the rulebook and/or gameplay videos.
* Kings of War gamers: They want mini's they can use in their KoW armies. Miniatures need to be compatible with existing KoW miniatures. To get their money, you add more miniatures, make them compatible with KoW, and sell them at prices lower than KoW retail.
* Collectors: They want mini's to paint. Resin.
Personally, I think they should have done a KS for both DS and a new KoW army, something like a humanoid one, because a humanoid army could have the greatest range of miniatures yet not need a complete set (eg. orcs, then goblins, then trolls, then ogres, then goblin wolf riders, then...). Expansions would be free mini-expansion SG's. Meanwhile, add-ons would be existing sculpts, and resin figures. The base game would come with the 32-page KoW ruleset. So, by the end of the campaign, your $100 pledge goal would have the DS base game, and several DS mini-expansions, with the humanoid lot usable as an army for KoW. In effect, the DS KS would also be a stealth marketing tool to introduce boardgamers into the KoW miniatures game so Mantic could get even *more* money from them retail...
Aye, I would like to see a beastman/werewolf army not bound to the undead army list.
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Post by: Yonan
We need a betting system for final value of KS's.
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Post by: NTRabbit
Actually I was making reference to one or two people who hate everything, but yes that's true
 Compel wrote:I hate to say it, but a Cthulhu style expansion could really work.
Underwater caves, rules for pools, deep water, tentacles reaching out of pools and attacking anything that passes by.
Perhaps go the 'Forbidden island' route in some ways, have water rushing into the dungeon, with the tide creeping in every turn, making the previous cubes / rooms in the dungeon inaccessible.
And that's before getting to the bad guys.
Forget Cthulu, I want a topsy turvy world where Lobsters are ruled by Clams 
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Post by: Azazelx
I would (almost) pledge $100 just for those two things. Automatically Appended Next Post: NTRabbit wrote:
Actually I was making reference to one or two people who hate everything, but yes that's true
Even assuming that one of your two people isn't me, I think that's a bit unfair. People here are somewhat critical, but I don't see a lot of "H8rs gonna H8" happening here at all.
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Post by: Pacific
There were some interesting comments in the last Wednesday release, concerning the new book - I've added a highlight for Azazelx there
There is also the , which you can use to design your own mission. We asked Jake Thornton, Games Designer behind Dungeon Saga, to share a few of his ideas on how this might work:
“The Necromancer player will create a dungeon according to a set of given parameters, and stock it with Monsters. The Monsters used add to a core set of scenario objectives that the Heroes will choose one from randomly. That way the Necromancer doesn’t know exactly what they are up to and so cannot make it completely impossible for the adventurers.”
These missions can also include personal objectives for each hero, and can work as one-off games or game in a linked campaign.
is a section devoted to the Monsters and Minions of Mantica, which you can use miniatures from the Kings of War line to represent if you want to.
This means that you can go beyond the basic boxed game contents of Undead and add-in new and interesting enemies. Perhaps your party stumbles across a moonlit enclosure infested with Lycanthropy-inflicted beasts, or they happen upon a dungeon-raiding group of goblins and their bizarre warmachines.
Even with all this great stuff in the book, we want to make this the best possible system for tabletop miniature role-playing that we can. With that, we present our next stretch goal.
When we beat this stretch goal, we will be able to:
- Write an in-depth background section describing the Mantica setting and the races that inhabit it.
- Add a comprehensive system for building your own heroes and villains.
- Add a character pad for keeping track of your newly-designed heroes on the tabletop.
- Boost your bonus cards and counters to include new equipment and spells.
There is nothing to stop this one running and running into new expansions and developments, as long as the core construct of the rules is sound (the Alpha seemed OK, but there is a long way to go to realise some of the stuff listed above!)
Not sure how much they will be able to squeeze into the last 60 hours, but I can definitely see future expansions for this post-retail release, and who knows probably even another KS at some point. If HQ25 falls on its arse, even more likely..
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Post by: angelofvengeance
There's bound to be some folks hanging on til the last second or two . No doubt Saturday and Sunday will be pretty busy!
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Post by: NTRabbit
Azazelx wrote:
Even assuming that one of your two people isn't me, I think that's a bit unfair. People here are somewhat critical, but I don't see a lot of "H8rs gonna H8" happening here at all.
Definitely wasn't you. There is one though.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Does it begin with Z and end with D? lol.
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Post by: Azazelx
Pacific wrote:There were some interesting comments in the last Wednesday release, concerning the new book - I've added a highlight for Azazelx there
Thanks - I meant KoW Army lists for Werewolves and Beastmen though - not DS stats for them. I've got many plastic Wolfen that would love to go out for a run, and a lot of unpainted Beastmen that are just waiting for an excuse (or the Orc list, I guess...).
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Post by: NTRabbit
No it doesn't! Starts with an n
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Post by: GrimDork
I think I'll be assembling all of my random gnolls, hobgoblins, goblins, orcs, beast dudes, and so on, from reaper bones into one big combined beastman/humanoid horde for a backup KoW army, when they aren't making appearances in DS.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
At time of typing we are 700 bucks shy of $640K goal
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Post by: GrimDork
500...
I really wanna see how this 'Destroyer' turns out!
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Post by: GrimDork
Grr people are messing with the total, or dropping out with a lot of coincidence. Or maybe upping and it's taking awhile to put their new funds back in.
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Post by: CptJake
I dropped out. But losing my $1 probably didn't hurt the project too badly.
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Post by: GrimDork
Update #43 : Don't Fear the Reaper Comment 4 likes And done – that’s Legendary versions of Ally McSween, Ibrahim, Hratth and Venetia created! We’ve put them together in this Optional Add-on set where you can get all four for $25, or individually for $8 each.  There basic forms are also now in Kickstarter Exclusive Resin, in the Heroes of Renown set:  Right then, enter the Destroyer! NEW STRETCH GOALS
$655,000 - BONUS Drech’nok the Destroyer Drech’nok was a promising warrior of the Abyss, imprisoned by Valandor himself in one of the massive battles before the Great Flood. His tomb held him for many thousands of years until it was accidentally discovered by a Dwarf mining expedition digging for a new mineral seam. Drech’Nok slaughtered the Dwarfs and escaped back into the world to wreak havoc anew. His years of imprisonment have driven him into a state of permanent, blinding rage, and he is one of the deadliest foes encountered in all the lands.  If we hit this stretch goal, we will produce Drech’nok the Destroyer – a mighty Abyssal Champion to lead the demonic hordes against your heroes! We will include this miniature in the Infernal Crypts expansion at no extra cost. Not only that but we will add a second bonus scenario, giving you a total of eight new missions to play with the Infernal Crypts expnasion! Finally, we will also add The Lair of the Beast – a new boss room and battle-arena for a final showdown between Drech’nok and your heroes! That's a great new mission for your heroes to adventure through, a new tile for them to negotiate and a new enemy to try and overcome. Drech'nok won't go down without a fight! Remember that you can add on the Infernal Crypts expansion pack to your pledge by raising your pledge $25:  Don't forget that all pledges of $200 or more also get a copy of the Dungeon Saga Hardback Adventurer’s Companion included free!  Don't want the Infernal Crypts expansion? Well when we hit this stretch goal, we will also add the demonic Abyssal Warrior to the Dungeon Master pledge level ($100 and Early Bird), meaning you have all of the Abyssal minions on offer and more choice and value in your pledge level  So far - there is still one more minion to go And finally… We will have a new update later today to launch us into the weekend. It features all manner of exciting BIG stuff! In the mean time, let’s get this goal smashed and done
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Post by: MaxT
Hello beautiful.....
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Post by: GrimDork
Destroyer has a bit static of a pose but that may be better for a single piece BG mini tbh. We'll have to see how he turns out. 15k stretch isn't bad at all, and they're even adding the missing guy into the DM pledge level, woot!
Looking forward to what they have to say after we crush this one
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Post by: Yonan
Hi, feeling horny?
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
Yes, very easy to expand this.
Both the 'full sized' expansions (and they have evil wise; Dark Elves and Dark Dwarves and good wise; Elves and Humans for dungeons), and 'adventure packs' (a location, some relevant quests, a mini game, a model or two, some rules - examples being say a Dwarf bar and staff, with some quests and a mini game like brew house bash, or a prison cell with quests, prisoner, etc, or a hero with a backstory, location, specific storyific quest etc).
Wether or not to KS them? Guess would hang off the Azure forest pack for DZ - did it work as a retail product or should these things be periodic kickstarters?
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Post by: GrimDork
Oh also note they said one more minion to add too.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
GrimDork wrote:Destroyer has a bit static of a pose but that may be better for a single piece BG mini tbh. We'll have to see how he turns out. 15k stretch isn't bad at all, and they're even adding the missing guy into the DM pledge level, woot!
Looking forward to what they have to say after we crush this one
Heresy minis one kinda beats the hell out of "The Destroyer"
Quite disappointed in Mantic's to be frank.
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Post by: Andrew1975
angelofvengeance wrote: GrimDork wrote:Destroyer has a bit static of a pose but that may be better for a single piece BG mini tbh. We'll have to see how he turns out. 15k stretch isn't bad at all, and they're even adding the missing guy into the DM pledge level, woot!
Looking forward to what they have to say after we crush this one
Heresy minis one kinda beats the hell out of "The Destroyer"
Quite disappointed in Mantic's to be frank.
Ok, but you are trying to compare a $60 model with one piece included in a $100 game. Its not really a fair comparison.
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Post by: GrimDork
Well that guy is over 50 bucks, probably worth it, but totally a different thing here. The destroyer is a 15k stretch and being added to a 18-19 model pack with several tiles cards counters etc, all for just $25 bucks. There's no way you could expect to get the same thing.
I do hope mantic has a big nasty gribbly thing up their sleeve to deploy later on, but I'm ok with the destroyer for what he is.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
GrimDork wrote:Well that guy is over 50 bucks, probably worth it, but totally a different thing here. The destroyer is a 15k stretch and being added to a 18-19 model pack with several tiles cards counters etc, all for just $25 bucks. There's no way you could expect to get the same thing.
I do hope mantic has a big nasty gribbly thing up their sleeve to deploy later on, but I'm ok with the destroyer for what he is.
I see what you're saying, but IDK. After seeing the other stuff Mantic has put up for the Dungeon Saga gubbinz, that model just doesn't tick the awesome box for me.
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Post by: Bioptic
I am certainly not overly impressed with the demon, but they will fulfil rather different roles! My nice resin Heresy one will sit on a mantlepiece/display cabinet, the DS one will get tossed in a big box with everything else rattling around in it. And that's assuming nothing gets spilled on it...
And I still reckon that it will cut a more impressive figure than the Orc warlord from the other box.
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Post by: judgedoug
I would like the third expansion pack to have card tiles that are the insides and limbs of Elven tree palaces, and come with a series of Elves to slaughter, and include four new evil heroes with all manner of weapons to slay Elves with.
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Post by: nkelsch
Troll harder why don't you?
Shouting down valid criticisms or trying to paint them as 'one lone dissenter in a sea of positive comments' is all lies. The fact there are multiple valid criticisms coming from multiple posters means your troll fell flat.
Valid criticisms echoed by multiple people here and elsewhere:
1. We have minimal rules so we are pledging for VAPORWARE. Lots of the mechanics people actually want like COOP AI and PVP and other things simply don't exist. Lots of people who pledged MYTH are the exact audience for this KS and the major failure with MYTH (besides from the delays) was the rules. Asking people to buy another game system without valid or playtested or even beginning mechanics for some of the modes is too much for people.
2. Mantic fails hard at turning concept art into valid sculpts. They have often started a KS with a bunch of awesome sculpts by their A team sculptors and finished the KS by changing artists and producing some bad models at the end. This behavior has been repeated too many times. Right now, the only things worth pledging for are the sculpts which are done.
3. Mantic has not proven mastery of any material yet. Mars attacks has been a wild crapshoot from 'pretty good' to 'in the garbage awful'. The problem is 'miniature painters' are a valid chunk of your audience and to discount them as 'you shouldn't expect quality from boardgame plastic' is a bad thing. Boardgame plastic can make paintable quality miniatures if the company has a commitment to QC. Mantic has never shown a commitment to QC.
4. Mantic Customer service sucks. Every fulfillment has the forums overflowing with 'they won't respond to my pledge, my email or my webform' with the same 'please contact so-and-so directly' or 'go pledge the new KS, that is where their focus is now, that is how to get their attention. This is a very bad cycle which hasn't been broken yet.
5. Besides all of this... the value is debatable, but is not a slam dunk. Maybe the overvalue packages of the past is unsustainable for mantic and this is reality. I know a lot of other companies have hit the wall where they lost money the first KS and lose customers subsequent KS because 'the value isn't there'. The issue is when a KS pledge is barley 20% off retail, then there is almost no benefit to pledging and not just waiting for retail. The value simply hasn't been there, and the dungeon compendium which should have been part of the default box being extra is kinda insane. The fake stretches like how the paladin ON THE COVER of the box and the 5th hero for a 5 player game with CO- OP AI wasn't going to be in the box? That was like Mega Man pretending Gutsman and Cuts man were not going to be in the core retail box. All lies. If they can no longer support 'deeper than retail (with discounters) applied' discounts for KS, then maybe they need to stop using KS? For mantic who has long used 'look how cheap to MSRP to show value for that to be suddenly gone from this KS is suspect.
Right now, the best thing they have going for them is the resin heroes and resin 'upgraded' heroes. Good sculpts in a material Mantic is fairly good at for a decent cost and a cool concept (something I wish more companies did with the level up heroes).
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Post by: angelofvengeance
I take it you're not backing then nkelsch?
Mantic have been doing very well with hard plastic of late IMO. Their scenery and zombies in particular are fantastic!
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Post by: nkelsch
angelofvengeance wrote:I take it you're not backing then nkelsch?
Mantic have been doing very well with hard plastic of late IMO. Their scenery and zombies in particular are fantastic!
And none of this is hard plastic and we don't seem to be getting any of Mantic's traditional wall-set scenery and the whelm of their scenery they are doing us very under. I would love for all of this to be hard plastic. That is the problem, we keep getting restic and now board game plastic opposed to the one thing they do well, which is hard plastic. Maybe make stretch goals 'upgrading' materials opposed to boring concepts which won't be executed well. A Monopose plastic model should cast just as well in hard plastic as it does board game plastic. Pose and sculpt usually determine the process and number of pieces and it does appear as if all the sculpts we have seen could be single piece hard plastic models if they wanted.
If they had that boxed set with all hard plastic, then the value would be there because as someone who collects and paints miniatures, a hard plastic or resin model has higher value than a restic or boardgame plastic model. I would also be fairly confident that I would be getting a good cast from hard plastic as long as the sculpts were good.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Well, they've got a year to do it all so that should be plenty of time for all the quality control malarky etc etc. So by the time it comes to dispatching it all it should fingers x'd be excellent quality.
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Post by: corgan
angelofvengeance wrote: GrimDork wrote:Destroyer has a bit static of a pose but that may be better for a single piece BG mini tbh. We'll have to see how he turns out. 15k stretch isn't bad at all, and they're even adding the missing guy into the DM pledge level, woot!
Looking forward to what they have to say after we crush this one
Heresy minis one kinda beats the hell out of "The Destroyer"
Quite disappointed in Mantic's to be frank.
My thoughts exactly. And also an unfortunate comparison as long as both KSs run simultaneously...
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Post by: Yonan
Unfortunate comparison? It's an excellent comparison for Mantic. It's 1 of 17 (more to come?) models with scenarios, tiles, counters and cards for 42% of the price. That model is very nice sure, but you're definitely paying for it.
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Post by: corgan
Yonan wrote:Unfortunate comparison? It's an excellent comparison for Mantic. It's 1 of 17 (more to come?) models with scenarios, tiles, counters and cards for 42% of the price. That model is very nice sure, but you're definitely paying for it.
Fair enough about the price and mainly the use the model is going to have. Also an Early Bird freed by me if someone is interested
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Post by: NTRabbit
Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice
I should have just left it at some people try very hard to never be happy rather than summoning a demonstration!
The photo seems like it might be hiding some detail in the wings maybe? They seem a lot softer compared to the rest. It's ok I guess, but it was never going to compete with that $60 resin delight at this price.
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Post by: nkelsch
Yonan wrote:Unfortunate comparison? It's an excellent comparison for Mantic. It's 1 of 17 (more to come?) models with scenarios, tiles, counters and cards for 42% of the price. That model is very nice sure, but you're definitely paying for it.
But for 42% of the price you are getting a 42% worse sculpt. People can make very valid comparisons in sculpt quality and understand the differences in cost.
Nothing requires lower-quality materials to have lower quality sculpts. (apart from companies who have low quality artists) Sometimes poses are restricted to avoid multi-piece but the basic sculpt for the mantic demon is fundamentally flawed and low quality and does not bode well for the rest of their demon's quality. It is just another dragon-rider and cathorse. Being cheap or a different material doesn't excuse the poor quality of the sculpt and make it unable to be compared to other models of similar size and theme.
You could put the Mierce head on the Mantic model and cast it as a one piece boad game plastic and still produce it for the cheap mantic cost and have it not be a bad sculpt. It is just not a good model compared to the alternatives.
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Post by: Yonan
nkelsch wrote: Yonan wrote:Unfortunate comparison? It's an excellent comparison for Mantic. It's 1 of 17 (more to come?) models with scenarios, tiles, counters and cards for 42% of the price. That model is very nice sure, but you're definitely paying for it.
But for 42% of the price you are getting a 42% worse sculpt. People can make very valid comparisons in sculpt quality and understand the differences in cost.
Nothing requires lower-quality materials to have lower quality sculpts. (apart from companies who have low quality artists) Sometimes poses are restricted to avoid multi-piece but the basic sculpt for the mantic demon is fundamentally flawed and low quality and does not bode well for the rest of their demon's quality. It is just another dragon-rider and cathorse. Being cheap or a different material doesn't excuse the poor quality of the sculpt and make it unable to be compared to other models of similar size and theme.
You could put the Mierce head on the Mantic model and cast it as a one piece boad game plastic and still produce it for the cheap mantic cost and have it not be a bad sculpt. It is just not a good model compared to the alternatives.
No, for 42% of the price you're getting "a 42% worse sculpt" - and 16 other miniatures with tiles, cards and scenarios. You really need to grasp the difference in quantity you're getting in exchange for the lower quality, not just it being less than half the price. It's probably a much smaller miniature so it will by necessity have substantially less detail. The Mierce mini is 62mm, the Mantic one will be what, 35mm at most? On a strictly dollar value, the Mantic demon is probably $1.50 of the $25, if you want to compare that to a $60 mini and then criticise its low quality I think that's pretty unjustified.
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Post by: Rolt
Y'know Mantic when I said about making the Abyssals Dungeon Keeper themed I wasn't Fo RealZ.
So considering this guy was a WiP and reveled during the last Mantic open day (same time as the Molochs) I guess this sorta confirms the previewed Molochs are indeed the final DKH and KoW versions.
But don't hold me to it
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Anybody else catch this from Jake's blog? I just copied it from the comments section, concerning what you're doing between adventures:
"Downtime essentially means picking one place to visit or thing to do between two adventures. There are many things you might want to do. Some will depend on your character's race or profession, some will cost you gold or other resources, some will make you gold, and many will be available to all. Some examples of Downtime options include:
- Tavern (because it wouldn't be a fantasy adventure without one)
- Mystical Market (buying and selling special or magical weapons, armour, potions and so on)
- Temple (making offerings to curry favour with the gods or atone for sins. Linked to experience for clerics and paladins)
- Other Temple (there's more than one god in Mantica, so may be more than one temple with different options for visitors. Some of these may take the form of sacred pools, fire pits, etc, depending on the faith)
- Arena (linked with experience for any combat-based characters, but can also be a family afternoon out)
- Thieves' Guild (buying/selling dodgy gear, experience for dodgy characters)
- Prison (may or not be a voluntary visit)
And so on..."
Link for those that can access it right now-
http://quirkworthy.com/2014/08/29/dungeon-saga-downtime/#respond
That sounds like the kinds of things I want to hear about being in the game!
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Post by: Pacific
That 'Downtime' thing sounds immensely cool. I always loved that kind of stuff in Advanced Heroquest, makes things feel a lot more like D&D.
As for the big beastie, yes he isn't a patch on the Heresy miniatures one, but not everyone is going to have the cash to splash out on one of those. Think this one isn't really a rated 'R' style demon, but seems to fit the aesthetic of the other demons and mobs pretty well. That Infernal Crypt expansion is now looking like very good value as well.
nkelsch wrote:
Troll harder why don't you?
Shouting down valid criticisms or trying to paint them as 'one lone dissenter in a sea of positive comments' is all lies. The fact there are multiple valid criticisms coming from multiple posters means your troll fell flat.
*snip*
I know I shouldn't, but this exchange made me chuckle..
Nkelsch, I can remember you knocking gak out of pretty much everything Mantic has produced going back at least 3-4 years now, not just here but on various forums.
I also don't know of anyone who has had such appalling results with other pledges (remembering pics you showed of your stuff) in terms of mould lines and mis-casts. It's almost like Mantic know who you are, and deliberately send you stuff from the reject pile..
Mate, I honestly don't know why you subject yourself to such punishment..
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Post by: GrimDork
Down time does sound interesting.
Oh neat, hit our goal for the Destroyer and now there is a triple update incoming
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
1. We have minimal rules so we are pledging for VAPORWARE. Lots of the mechanics people actually want like COOP AI and PVP and other things simply don't exist. Lots of people who pledged MYTH are the exact audience for this KS and the major failure with MYTH (besides from the delays) was the rules. Asking people to buy another game system without valid or playtested or even beginning mechanics for some of the modes is too much for people.
Actually this is the bit I have the most confidence in. Jake is a solid designer and even his flawed stuff is more fun than mosts attempts. I am in the KS still largely on the strength of his involvement, even despite the fact I don't think his style is the best for the job. have yet to be let completely down by any of his designs to date.
2. Mantic fails hard at turning concept art into valid sculpts. They have often started a KS with a bunch of awesome sculpts by their A team sculptors and finished the KS by changing artists and producing some bad models at the end. This behavior has been repeated too many times. Right now, the only things worth pledging for are the sculpts which are done.
Well, don't necessarily agree there - some of those done sculpts aren't that hot...
Luckily here this is an area where I have plenty of painted models to plunk down so aren't fussed about the mini's for once.
3. Mantic has not proven mastery of any material yet. Mars attacks has been a wild crapshoot from 'pretty good' to 'in the garbage awful'. The problem is 'miniature painters' are a valid chunk of your audience and to discount them as 'you shouldn't expect quality from boardgame plastic' is a bad thing. Boardgame plastic can make paintable quality miniatures if the company has a commitment to QC. Mantic has never shown a commitment to QC.
They do have inexplicable lapses, especially when dealing with a patient audience. As gamers 90% of us can wait for something to be done right. And yes they are getting better, but it sucks to think you have paid for them to learn and got sub quality stuff as a consequence (I am still not even half way through my dreadball haul yet - apparently PP uses a similar material which means I will never buy their stuff). Compare that to something like trollcast spun resiny stuff, seems to have the detail and price point of restic, but without being that horrible stuff.
4. Mantic Customer service sucks. Every fulfillment has the forums overflowing with 'they won't respond to my pledge, my email or my webform' with the same 'please contact so-and-so directly' or 'go pledge the new KS, that is where their focus is now, that is how to get their attention. This is a very bad cycle which hasn't been broken yet.
Everyone in the club had at least one problem with each order where it was more than a retail box. Their system of extras does seem to be poor. We had delays with enquires, sometimes more than a week, but no one was ultimately forgotten about.
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Post by: nkelsch
Pacific wrote:
Nkelsch, I can remember you knocking gak out of pretty much everything Mantic has produced going back at least 3-4 years now, not just here but on various forums.
Considering I don't actually belong to any other wargaming forums except maybe 'the-waaagh' I don't know how you could possibly see me on other forums... maybe there are other posters with very valid experiences which mirror mine and you are just trying to discount all of them by saying they are all one poster? Pretending bad experiences don't exist doesn't do anyone any favors. Apart from a short stint on BGG in the Myth boards and some SDE/chibi boards, there really is no where I even discuss mantic or wargaming minis except Dakka.
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Post by: Fugazi
The new stretch goals include a choose your own adventure book and a short story? Are they kidding?
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Post by: Da Boss
Yeah the choose your own adventure book is a bit random. The real goal I suppose is the giant monster thing, I think 700,000 is pretty optimistic for that. Didn't they also say they had one more minion to do for the abyssal expansion? Surely that should come first?
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Post by: Fugazi
(I thought the destroyer finished the abyss expansion.) And in the comments they hinted at a 3rd expansion after the 700k goal, so that likely means not much more in the core set.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
The choose your own adventure is a cool idea.
I think they were discussing those books way back when the campaign first started. I might put in for an actual copy of the book.
Bear in mind that if they do go ahead with a 3rd expansion, there's a good chance those models will end up with your pledge as well, if the first two expansions are anything to go by.
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Post by: squall018
I always worry when anything on KS throws up sketches and concept art without any kind of renders or anything. Especially with Mantic's track record on this front.
I am going to keep my EB, but I'm going to wait as long as I can to decide on the expansions, as the MA stuff has me a little worried about this material, and I want to see as much as I can before I put my money in.
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Post by: Gallahad
I think that the rules for this will turn out fine as Jake has a pretty good history of making decent games. I don't think it will end up being a "wade through lots of little bad guys to get to the big baddy" type game like some people want, so people may be disappointed in the feel of the game, but I expect it to be a pretty decent rule set.
Regarding the models themselves, I think everybody has the sense that these will be board gaming pieces both in terms of sculpt quality and plastic/cast quality. What frustrates me about the miniatures is that Mantic could increase the sculpt quality pretty substantially and only charge a little bit more to each backer due to their economies of scale. I mean with $4000+ backers, you raise the per backer cost by $1 for example, and you could dramatically increase the sculpt quality of two or three of the key bad guys, and likely pull in even more money on the basis of the sculpts alone.
As someone who desperately wants Mantic to continue to do well, it is frustrating to see them continue to skimp on sculpt quality and material choice. It is being penny wise and pound foolish.
To be clear I think going with one piece board game quality plastic is likely the right material choice for this campaign, but I think it is fair to say that nobody will be pledging for DS based on the strength of the sculpts (or even the concepts).
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Post by: GrimDork
Are you kidding me? The choose your own adventure sounds awesome! I used to love those, nostalgia time! Plus more scenarios for the base DM pledge to go with your infernal dudes (but that also work with the expansion) boosh!
And then a zombie hydra? Hell yes zombie hydra.
The updates have me thinking there will be one more minion type to go into the second expansion, probably a 15k stretch which will be pretty easy as things are.
I mean for pete's sake we're already 6.5k or better past the destroyer goal in none too much time, meh.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
For what it's worth, Myth's pieces were all one piece "board game quality" figures, and turned out quite nicely.
No reason Mantic couldn't produce similar quality figures.
Whether they do or not is entirely another story..
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Post by: Da Boss
I'm cool with the undead hydra demon big bad. It's not like anything I currently have in my collection, and if it's done well it could be awesome.
What I'm really happy about is more scenarios. Happy I went with the Abyss expansion rather than the orc one. Pretty confident I'll be happy enough with this when I get it.
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Post by: Fugazi
GrimDork wrote:Are you kidding me? The choose your own adventure sounds awesome!
Stretch goals like this are nothing more than filler. If I pledge for X, I want X and more of X. Not X and some Y. If I wanted Y, I would pledge for Y. Don't get me wrong, I like CYOA books. But not in the context of pledging for a board game.
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Post by: sukura636
squall018 wrote:I always worry when anything on KS throws up sketches and concept art without any kind of renders or anything. Especially with Mantic's track record on this front.
I am going to keep my EB, but I'm going to wait as long as I can to decide on the expansions, as the MA stuff has me a little worried about this material, and I want to see as much as I can before I put my money in.
Models aren''t made yet as they don't have dun dun dun Funding! You know...kickstarter's goal. A render would mean that the model is sculpted and ready to go, which is an investment up front (and hence a risk). they do it for the first few models to gain momentum, but after that they rely exclusively on KS funding, or the promise thereof.
EDIT and ehy is everyone unhappy about a backer goal that costs you nothing ?
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Post by: Da Boss
I wouldn't characterize my response as "unhappy", just not particularly impressed, and therefore confused, because the point of stretch goals is to impress us and encourage us to pledge more.
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Post by: ced1106
BGG'ers definitely like CYOA's. I mean, when they have some spare time but can't find someone to play a game with, they're sure not painting miniatures!
As for the demon, I'm wondering how much of its sculpture is limited by plastic injection molding (eg. undercuts). I think a demon is a fine boss monster for an "entry level" dungeon crawling miniatures set, although a dragon would be more popular.
Myself, I already picked up the Reaper Bones demons. But, like the Heresy model, you had to pay for them as an add-on. The DS demon is part of the DM pledge. Freeee!
The undead monster looks pretty cool, but I already have something like that from the D&D Adventure System games. Fits the theme better than a dragon, I suppose.
EDIT: The Dungeoncrawler KS is coming up, and you can see how their selection of monsters *isn't* targeted towards newbies like the DS one is: http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/56436-dungeon-crawler-ks2014/
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Post by: 02Laney
The choose your own adventure is a great stretch (nostalgia had me buy the fighting fantasy books a while back) and it's based on backer number anyway - so if you don't like it, the goal has no overall impact on you or the kickstarter. The other two stretches are equally ace - though I'd like to see the final abyssal minion they mentioned added in and doors - if only to stop the whining in the comments.
This can easily add a third expansion too.
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Post by: Pacific
Looks like we have just passed the 'Unholy Crusade' pledge total.
For me, the sketch drawings are the first sign that we are entering not all 'pre-planned' territory for the Kickstarter. I like it, it gives a less produced feel to the whole thing.
And book is cool too as a nice little diversion. Just been playing one of those old Fighting Fantasy apps you can download now on your phone, they are a lot of fun!
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Post by: squall018
 sukura636 wrote: squall018 wrote:I always worry when anything on KS throws up sketches and concept art without any kind of renders or anything. Especially with Mantic's track record on this front.
I am going to keep my EB, but I'm going to wait as long as I can to decide on the expansions, as the MA stuff has me a little worried about this material, and I want to see as much as I can before I put my money in.
Models aren''t made yet as they don't have dun dun dun Funding! You know...kickstarter's goal. A render would mean that the model is sculpted and ready to go, which is an investment up front (and hence a risk). they do it for the first few models to gain momentum, but after that they rely exclusively on KS funding, or the promise thereof.
EDIT and ehy is everyone unhappy about a backer goal that costs you nothing ?
Hey, thanks for telling me how KS works. I'm pretty new here so didn't know...
Anyways, I wouldn't complain about a "free" stretch goal, but as has been said (ad naseum at this point) we don't know what this is costing at retail, so its hard to call anything "free" and be accurate about it.
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Post by: MangoMadness
Im not a fan of the demon, same old same old, big horns, bat wings and a scythe.....meh.
but in the context of the KS its ok, doesnt cost a whole lot (freeish) and seres a purpose.
I like the idea of the undead monster, hopefully more of a hydra or something that is a little different to the usual stereotypical monsters from other sources.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
That total keeps on rolling up.
Little less than 48 hours and it's already nearing 680k.
I wonder if this can break 800? It'll hit 700, no doubt.
What's left that we know of at this point?
-Efreet for the abyss expansion (mentioned in comments)
-Doors
-possibility of getting plastic legendary heroes
-3rd expansion that consists of ???
-other surprises?
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
It is cute
Bear in mind that if they do go ahead with a 3rd expansion, there's a good chance those models will end up with your pledge as well, if the first two expansions are anything to go by.
Please, dear saint of kickstarters, if they do this can they say - here is complete expansion, the target is 50k, or whatever it needs, above where we are now. Done and dusted...
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Post by: GrimDork
It's more likely to be 100-125k given the stretches we've had already for the other two. I don't care how they unveil it, just looking forward to a third batch
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Post by: Necros
I'm gonna aim high and say it'll hit 900k. The last day is always the craziest.
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Post by: Azazelx
squall018 wrote:I always worry when anything on KS throws up sketches and concept art without any kind of renders or anything. Especially with Mantic's track record on this front.
I am going to keep my EB, but I'm going to wait as long as I can to decide on the expansions, as the MA stuff has me a little worried about this material, and I want to see as much as I can before I put my money in.
That's pretty amusing - add $15 for an undead demon that will look like ...something! Still, no-one is forced to add for it, and I imagine only the biggest and most insane of Mantic fanboiz will actually add for it.
Choose your own adventure book is, as said, pretty random feeling. More scenarios is a good thing, even if I don't give a fig about the lore of Mantica or their short stories.
Boardgame plastic figures can turn out quite decent. In fairness to the material, I've got quite a lot of them that look (to me) better than a lot of Mantic's HIPS and restic stuff, but that's more a commentary on Mantic's uneven sculpting (all companies are uneven, but some fall further on the " almost" or " just no" side in general. And the resin masters for this overall look quite good. Having said that, the demon big bad looks more than a bit underwhelming to me - but I don't expect it to compare to the Heresy figure, so it's "good enough" for a BG model. Buying extras of that or the concept-art Orc for $12 a pop in BG plastic is crazytown though - but again - what I said about above pledging $15 for an unknown model applies again.
I've got stuff that's much higher priority for my current spending money than to inflate the overall total for this and chase stretch goals, but I'm likely to stay in with my EB. And if they do the "pledge manager helps stretch goals" thing again, then I'll "help" down the road when I add the expacks in the PM. Automatically Appended Next Post: ced1106 wrote:
As for the demon, I'm wondering how much of its sculpture is limited by plastic injection molding (eg. undercuts). I think a demon is a fine boss monster for an "entry level" dungeon crawling miniatures set, although a dragon would be more popular.
See - that's a really important and powerful point about dragons.
People fething love dragons. Dragon-heavy expansions for games like World of Warcraft and EverQuest were always more popular than others. People just love interacting with and killing Dragons. Now while this KS actually has some interesting and unique concepts here (undead zombie troll shamans) and so forth, what would really help their total would be a dragon boss for the core game. I'm not saying this because I'm super-excited and hanging out for a Mantic Dragon
but because a well, or decently-sculpted dragon model would help the game move units - not just KS totals, but at retail. Bigtime.
I - like most of us here - already have plenty of dragons, in metal, bones, resin and plastic. So it's not a "I want dragon" kind of whine. It's not like the floor tiles thing that are much more niche that boardgame players and kids wouldn't give two gaks about, it's something that would help it in it's obvious goal of being HeroQuest MK2 in B&M and mainstream BG stockists.
 MangoMadness wrote:Im not a fan of the demon, same old same old, big horns, bat wings and a scythe.....meh.
but in the context of the KS its ok, doesnt cost a whole lot (freeish) and seres a purpose.
Context is everything here - it's perfectly fine for the role it has (and I don't actually like the sculpt). Stereotypical works best for a boardgame than something too creative.
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Post by: Yonan
This will be Mantics third boardgame plastic kickstarter so they should have it refined by this stage. Later restic models were a substantial improvement over the early ones (I still really like 95% of the Deadzone minis...) so I don't think it unreasonable to expect that these minis will come out more like the better Mars Attacks ones than the worse ones, probably better.
For the base pledge we're at 61+ minis (some are fairly large) + terrain stuff, tiles, cards, scenarios, solo play rules and what not. If you top $200 which will be easy to do with 3 expansions you get the hardback rulebook which is always nice imo.
Each expansion is ~19 minis plus cards, tiles, counters and scenarios which again seems like good value for $25.
It's probably just because I'm still new to the hobby and don't have a large stock of minis on hand, but the large quantity at good value is a big selling point for me as I don't already have minis (that are probably of better quality) that can fill the purpose.
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Post by: ced1106
Sounds like an auto-buy! And they're going to hit that big undead baddie in only 1.1K, so let's see what's next!
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Post by: angelofvengeance
I will have a Dragon for my DS games at xmas time lol. He's really, REALLY big
We've just smashed through the $700K goal folks, which means...
UPDATE #45
BURN IT DOWN
Last night we unlocked the Unhold Crusades narrative campaign, and added it free to your Kickstarter Exclusive Journal.
And now we've broken another milestone goal - Ba’ el, the legendary demonlord brought back to perpetual unlife has been raised by Mortibris, has been unlocked thanks to your efforts!
That means we’ve unlocked him free in your Dungeon Master ($100 and Early Bird) pledge level!! The votes are still being counted on which sketch to use, make sure you’ve voiced your opinion.
Wow – what a way to start the weekend!
Let’s complete that Infernal Crypts expansion shall we?
New Stretch Goal
$725,000 – BONUS Abyssal Effrit!
All Abyssal creatures are born of the flames, and most have some kind of pyromantic talent, but none are the equal of the Effrits. Born in and moulded by the deepest and hottest furnace flames of the infernal pit, Iffrits are constantly suffused in flickering, demonic flames. They often transport themselves forwards on a column of fire, and shoot massive and deadly fireballs from their clawed fists which burn hot enough to reduce even a fully armoured warrior to mere dust and ashes in an eyeblink. Iffrits are thankfully rare, but where they do appear, doom will surely follow for all those who face them.
If we hit this stretch goal, we will produce the mighty Effrit and will:
- Include two of these miniatures in the Infernal Crypts expansion pack ($25)
- Include one of this miniature in a pledge of Dungeon Master ($100 and Early Bird)
The Effrit completes the Infernal Crypts Expansion Pack, and is the last of the bonus Abyssals in the Dungeon Master ($100 and Early Bird) pledge level…
… and we’ll still not done yet! We’re venturing to new locations for Dungeon Saga next!
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I'm definitely buying that CYOA book. I may buy the whole $100 pledge if the PM and my birthday coincide, and nothing even more exciting has come along.
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Post by: Slinky
OP is very out of date :(
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Post by: GrimDork
Got the efrits, now unlocking $25 add-on tiles with one set of plastic furniture, added plastic furniture to other tile add on set as well.
I guess its not... bad? Gotta do doors soon or people are gonna freak out lol. Plastic furniture means people who wanted a set can get moar tiles for just another 10 bucks.
Hope fully doors next or I for see mutiny.
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Post by: sukura636
There's a hint at doors in the Black fortress description .
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Post by: Da Boss
Hmmm. I was on the fence about getting a second lot of dungeon furniture. Extra tiles + furniture is pretty attractive. I might have to up my pledge.
Pretty happy with the value provided at present. Though if I up again, I'll be at 160. It becomes very tempting to try to find the extra 40 dollars to get it to 200 for the hardback book!
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Post by: Yonan
Given the sheer quantity of tiles from base + exp + exp I'm actually getting a bit more keen on the tiles themselves, rather than just defaulting to using 3rd party terrain. The Black Fortress addon just makes that even more appealing. It looks like a substantial quantity of tiles which should add a nice amount of variety to the gameplay. I was expecting a 3rd "expansion" of miniatures at 750k though : (
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Post by: Da Boss
Yeah, I've started to think about a "cardboard megadungeon", which is a little insane. I used to have a lot of the Dungeons and Dragons generic dungeon tiles- I sold them off when I got rid of my D'n'D minis a few years ago. I wish I hadn't! I am excited to re-stock with some nice tiles here. Though I hope some of them are "generic" enough!
Skirmish games (like LOTR) can easily be played on a tile based board, and it makes for some really interesting play scenarios. I ran a bunch of demos at a small convention once with my painted LOTR stuff on D'n'D tiles. Some fun, dramatic games, with the fellowship moving through "cardboard moria". It's a lot more practical than having 3D dungeon terrain, though 3D is cooler.
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Post by: Yonan
Cardboard Moria... *eye twitch*... I locked a Dwarf Guardian at lvl 60 in Lord of the Rings Online because I love the Moria atmosphere. Replicating Moria on tabletop... you have my attention good sir ; p
I'm getting the Battle Systems fantasy dungeon terrain (on KS atm) which, while card stock, is still very much 3d thanks to its great design. Plastic and resin if painted up nicely would be the best of course, but the storage is the huge killer for me.
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Post by: Da Boss
I looked at the battlesystems stuff, it is pretty awesome. I am just not sure if I want to be fiddling around with the cardboard so much, with my clumsy fingers.
Tiles are less evocative, but more functional for play.
I'm also playing LOTRO, though on a break. Really want to get to Moria- currently my Hobbit Hunter is in the Lone Lands, so I've a bit to go!
A quick tally (unless I miscounted!):
Dungeon Master pledge nets you 63 miniatures, including at least 5 Troll sized ones (depending on the size of the Efreet), one "big" one and a bunch of heroes. That's not bad at all.
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Post by: GrimDork
I'm starting to wonder myself if I really *need* the battle systems stuff anymore... I could just get this stuff, and make my own walls that better fit these tiles. Just get some foamboard or whatever, print out appropriate texture, line strips of the board oh and inch or two high for convincing walls... I mean I love the idea of Battle Systems, gonna have much fun with their scifi stuff... but I'm just wondering if I really need it for fantasy with all of these tiles...
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
When the doors do eventually show up, I wonder if they'll toss some in with the tile expansions.
Those tile expansions would be a GREAT deal then- tiles, terrain, and the possibility of extra doors?
Hell, I'd consider even adding one then just for extra goodies to play with.
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Post by: Compel
I'm starting to find this getting a bit confusing, as to what is in Dungeon Master and what isn't.
So, as far as I can tell, Kapoka and Arianya are free in the Dungeon Master pledge, while Ravenna and Gunn aren't?
Additionally, the 'Dungeon Critters' and 'Traps' sets also don't have any direct equivalents in Dungeon Master? - Except possibly card counters for the traps?
Also, what is the 'Hall of the Heroes' tile set mentioned in the Black Fortress update #46?
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Post by: GrimDork
I think they meant Halls of Dolgarth or whatever. It's the $25 add-on where you're buying most/all of the tiles from the core game again. Now that and the black fortress also include the $15 dollar scenery pack.
Ravenna and Gunn are currently only in resin and there's only a few resin things in the DM pledge, think a couple of heroes at the bottom maybe?
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Post by: NTRabbit
When in doubt, the big graphic on the main page tells you what's in the main pledge, and any add on which is for resin of any kind of token or counter comes on cardboard in the base pledge. Any kind of resin mini, compare it against the main image - if the name is in both, you get a PVC in the base pledge and a resin in the add on, if you don't see the name in both than it's only in resin - so you're right about Ravena and Gunn.
Basically just stick to the images, and if you really aren't sure don't pledge the extra money now, because the pledge manager will clear up any questions or ambiguities and you lose nothing by waiting - we don't even lose all that much as a group either, because Mantic still keeps unlocking stretch goals with extra pledge manager funds
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Post by: ced1106
...and read the fine print! Most of it is good. Like... I missed that the hardback was FREE with a $200 pledge!
Now when's that next update? We're already 10K towards it and don't know what it is! Okay, it's doors, but tell us. And stop underestimating your projects!
EDIT: Wait -- when did they add the Army Painter set? That's a good price, too!!!
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Post by: Rolt
Nice to see the undead Hydra unlocked (and other stuff), really hope Mantic consider giving it KoW rules at some point, I'd love a big center piece model for the undead army I'm building.
And something even bigger is coming....
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Post by: timetowaste85
I guess I should add my guaranteed extra $100 to make it a total $200 and help speed things up. I'm getting at least $200 in stuff, but I'm looking higher so far. I think some things will hit in the survey at the latest possible moment.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
If they do go ahead with a third expansion, I'm more than likely going to be getting that upgrade to a hardcover as well.
I do hope they consider letting us add on softcovers in the pledge manager. I like to have one to browse at my own perusal, and one that can get all ratty from being tossed in the game box and passed around the table all night long.
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Post by: GrimDork
New add-on, highly considering this one, about $55 worth of abyssal dwarfs for 30 bucks. Sure you gotta wait a year but whatever I'm patient.
800k stretch (35k to fund) Plastic doors!
Also available as a $5 add-on, and also come with the two tile packs Halls of Dolgarth and the Black something or another.
Something about a Tyrant of Halpi, but needing "legendary heroes" first. Wonder if that's the boardgame plastic legendary heroes. I'll add for those too. Other thing sounds like it may be big.
Starting to think no 3rd expansion unless we go to ludicrous speed tomorrow.
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Post by: Rolt
Nice, hard plastic doors at last. If they can achieve the same detailed design as the photos than they'll surely sell by the bucket load, considering how the Deadzone scenery went I have a good deal of faith in Mantic on this one.
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Post by: Alpharius
Chaos Dwarfs - Still with the 'premium plastic'?
Still not tempted, and surprised at how well the one is doing!
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Post by: Compel
I'm just hoping there will be enough plastic doors for the available options in the kits.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Well shoot. Guess they'll be getting me for at least one extra tile set. Not bad for $25- doors, tiles, and scenery? Not too bad of deal at all.
I didn't get in on the original KoW campaign, and I would still really like me some golems.
It's either the Greenskin pack with the mincer and war trombone, or the Golems and gargoyles. What say you Dakka?
I will most certainly be adding those legendary heroes- I doubt they'll offer them for free. I could be wrong though.
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Post by: GrimDork
I like those Golems. I may have to recalc my pledge and add.
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Post by: Rolt
Yeah thats a pretty good point Compel, theres not real mention of how many doors you need or get, we can just assume the picture is right (?), luckily the sets are cheap at least.
(providing we don't need 10 of them )
Not to spam post, but were officially in the last 24 hours, very exciting, hope we unlock one last big beast.
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Post by: GrimDork
The Tyrant of Halpi could certainly be such a beast! Or a regular man-sized dude, dunno at this point
I think the update says something about amount of doors not finalized at the moment.
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Post by: decker_cky
I assume they'll include enough doors to do any of the basic missions. I'm hoping they do open and closed doors like heroquest had.
I'm also holding out hope that they upgrade the scenery and doors to be hard plastic. They'll already have 5000+ sets spoken for, and they're about as simple to make in hard plastic as anything (might even end up closer to 10,000 sets when it's all said and done).
I also hope that after this they just do a $100k stretch for a third expansion, all completed with bonus minis in the main set.
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Post by: Avariel
So this worth kickstarting as a board game for board game nights or should I wait for retail? Not to interested in the resin since I have a lot of reaper bones still to paint as well as Zombicide and Sedition Wars.
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Post by: GrimDork
Probably? The base pledge is getting pretty packed with extras now, all of which should have at least a couple of scenarios, and the advanced rules will allow you to take it further--if you want.
The expansions also look like a decent value for the money, 19 models each with the tiles cards etc plus scenarios.
I'm sure the retail box will be spiffy too though, and will come at a reasonable discount from r/etailers.
So decide if you want more stuff for the money, or to be able to wait and see production minis and know *exactly* what you're getting into once it hits retail. I know tying up the money for a whole year has some people edgy about it.
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Post by: ced1106
Absolutely. While I'm not seeing as many mini's as Reaper, Zombicide, or Myth, I'm seeing a lot of gaming content (scenarios, campaigns, AI, coop, level advancement) here. I wish this was around instead of picking up D&D 4th edition! If you don't already have a dungeoncrawler boardgame (I'm fine with Descent 2nd edition with the coop campaign), this is pretty much it. The basegame and three expansions will be $175, then buy $25 of other stuff (is there any game content I'm missing?) and get a free hardcover of the rules and dungeon journal. OTOH, If the game's not going to hit the table very much, retail should do. MSRP *still* has not been set yet. I'm specuguessing $75 MSRP, and $50 OLGS, based on Mars Attacks. Anyone know better?
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Post by: Azazelx
They haven't released any of the RRP info yet.
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Post by: The_Real_Chris
Big obstacle to a 3rd expansion is designer time. Jake must be tapped out by now. They would need to bring in more people to avoid a half baked product.
Wonder if one of those golums would be a good blood bowl CD big guy?
The dwarfs look like a half hearted attempt at a third expansion - them, the rules, the new tiles - tis almost an expansion I guess.
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Post by: Yonan
We're shaping up for a good final day! I'm in for $260ish. EB +3exp +acrylics +dice +bag +couple resins. The absolute minimum, it might go up a little during pledge manager -_- 
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Post by: Sasori
Well, I went for 225$ for my final pledge. Gets me both expansions, the first set of epic characters, and the two tile extensions.
Pretty happy with that!
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Post by: MangoMadness
Too big I reckon, they actually come on a 50mm base
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Post by: Mymearan
Can I pledge $1 and then change my pledge to Dungeon Master in the pledge manager?
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
The sculptor (Sylvain Quirion) of a lot of the mini's has posted photos of loads of the greens he did for the project over on frothers http://frothersunite.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=49378 I've copies over a few, but have a look over there for more   
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Post by: Dysartes
We're past the $810k mark.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Can we have a Mod update the OP please? Seems Scarletsquig is busy lol.
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Post by: NTRabbit
Mymearan wrote:Can I pledge $1 and then change my pledge to Dungeon Master in the pledge manager?
Yes you can
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Post by: marv335
While you can, it's a bit of a jerk move, if you're planning to spend the money, pledge it, and help get to the next stretch goal.
On a personal note, I'm quite excided by this game, I'd not been interested, then a friend sent me a link and I got hooked.
I've gone Dungeon Master with $100 extra so I get the hardback, some expansions, and dice/rulers etc.
I missed out on Deadzone due to finances, and I'm not missing out on this.
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