Yeah look at MA. Boat load of retail sales apparently, biggest game yet even though the kickstarter was more modest than DZ.
Could end up with something like that here. I mean... won't they technically make more money on the long road if they do a modest KS, and punt a crapton of copies to retail down the road?
Itching to snatch one of these early birds before heading to work.
Mantic Games
1 min ·
Thirty minute warning guys! Be ready to check out the goodness that is Dungeon Saga in t -30 mins!
We'll get the link posted here as soon as it goes live!
I'll be jumping on an early bird. I loved Heroquest growing up and this looks like it'll be a great dungeon crawl. I'm especially interested in the booklet for creating your own scenarios, as well as rules for all the models in the Kings of War range.
I'm sure that's the case. Most casual boardgamers aren't going to drop $200+ on a game sight unseen and not delivered until 6+ months from now. The KS doesn't have to fund molds for more than a base game and two or three expansions.
Alex C wrote: Have they said there will be rules for ALL the models in the KoW range?
I saw the bit about rules for all the UNDEAD models, but nothing about the entire KoW range...
Ronnie said it somewhere, I think in the Beasts of War interview, that there would be rules to use all the models in the Kings of War range. I'm guessing it'll probably be a stretch goal type expansion thing, but I remember him saying it. I could be wrong but I don't remember him saying it was only the Undead range.
Likely to be more than double that by the time the stretch goals are done.
Edit: EB goals are gone, and it's still growing by $100/second (1 regular pledge), makes for quite interesting watching. Now what do we do for the next 27 days?
And now with the EBs gone in 5 minutes there's little point for too many people more to jump on board day 1, since what you get as listed so far is solidly unimpressive, especially for tha sking price.
Roll on the typical Mantic fake stretch goals to get it to the base value you pledge for, and see where we go from there.
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cincydooley wrote: Interesting that they are board game plastic and not miniatures typical plastic.
Not really. They've been pretty upfront about that sort of thing. They're going for boardgame-with-miniatures like MA rather than miniatures boardgame a la DZ.
Hmmmm. Well, I was hoping for a larger number of miniatures to be available from the start, to be honest, but I'll throw a pledge on in a few days when I've got some money on my pre-paid visa.
3 miniatures is fine, $25 000 for them isn't! Not for a single pose. That rings out as the 'fake' part - I can easily understand how it might take $50 000 for the base game - a lot of design, model types, specialised printing.
Azazelx wrote: And now with the EBs gone in 5 minutes there's little point for too many people more to jump on board day 1, since what you get as listed so far is solidly unimpressive, especially for tha sking price.
Roll on the typical Mantic fake stretch goals to get it to the base value you pledge for, and see where we go from there.
Yeah I'm starting to wonder if it'd be better for them to front load the stuff a bit more, and not have any stretch goes for the first $200k or so, as even at $5 off, there's really no incentive to pledge for this before the last hour, beyond the generation of stretch goals.
Azazelx wrote: And now with the EBs gone in 5 minutes there's little point for too many people more to jump on board day 1, since what you get as listed so far is solidly unimpressive, especially for tha sking price.
Roll on the typical Mantic fake stretch goals to get it to the base value you pledge for, and see where we go from there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cincydooley wrote: Interesting that they are board game plastic and not miniatures typical plastic.
Not really. They've been pretty upfront about that sort of thing. They're going for boardgame-with-miniatures like MA rather than miniatures boardgame a la DZ.
Agreed on both counts here. No real reason for others to jump in after the EBs are gone until the value is there... and at least they're being more honest about making board game quality pieces (not wargaming miniatures for use in a board game) now...
Because apparently board game value is entirely dependent on miniature count...
Besides, like Azazelx said, their fake SGs will bump up the mini count, replace the terrain counters with plastic and add in more scenarios and adventures.
I thought it was starting later today. Blah. Missed an early bird, but since its only a $5 difference, I don't care too much. Popped on a for a regular, and I can get updates. While it doesn't have fantastic value yet, we've all seen how much Mantic throws into their KSs by the end. Claiming disappointment for volume is premature.
Is there anybody for whom the art print is any sort of incentive? It's like those post cards and poster from Deadzone which I quickly put at the bottom of the box without even unwrapping them (If they were shrink-wrapped - I can't really remember).
As for the DS kickstarter - right now I don't see myself backing it. I hope Jake'll publish some Alpha or Beta rules so I can see whether this would be a sensible investment in addition to (or to replace)Descent which I'm playing about three times a year...
Oh, and the first stretch goal is up... 3 identical Basilean zombies... eh, well. They'll have to pick up the pace.
Alex C wrote: Because apparently board game value is entirely dependent on miniature count...
Besides, like Azazelx said, their fake SGs will bump up the mini count, replace the terrain counters with plastic and add in more scenarios and adventures.
No need for doomsaying yet.
It's not, but I can't be bothered tracking a bunch of fake goals... Will check in later on in the campaign and see if folks here think the value is there or not.
Why not pledge earlier? Because people forget to check back in, or feel committed to stay once they've pledged. If they're gaming the system, they can't expect backers not to, too...
As others have said it's pretty pricey as it currently stands until the stretch goal additions get factored in. I'd be more interested to see gameplay videos however.
They're already adding the value in the 2nd update. I know its still a "fake" stretch goal, but we're half an hour in and already adding minis and tiles.
I'm curious to see what their tiles look like. Their card from their previous games is garbage, so here's hoping the stuff here Is made of some thicker stuff.
Alex C wrote: Because apparently board game value is entirely dependent on miniature count...
Besides, like Azazelx said, their fake SGs will bump up the mini count, replace the terrain counters with plastic and add in more scenarios and adventures.
No need for doomsaying yet.
Well, I'm buying a product and generally you pay for the material costs (plus other intrinsic costs) in a product. If you're not giving me a $100 value, don't put a $100 price tag on it.
I'm not doomsaying, I'm looking for value and not seeing it but like you say, by the time they're done it'll probably be up there. I'll put this one on reminder and check it 48 hours before it closes.
$95 for this game? there are literally a 100 or more games based like this for much lower cost or much more "wood" (meaning more substance, minis, extras, ect.)
I thought Kick started was a way to raise money for a company, offering items at discount and still make money by cutting out distributors which seems far from the case here.
But you don't think Zombicide had fake SG? Tens of thousands of dollars to get the Zombivor for a character when other characters got the Zombivor with it? Tens of thousands of dollars to get the second half of a card deck?
Mantic has certainly done it before, it shouldn't surprise anyone.
Anyway I'm bailing on this thread. It's depressing.
But you don't think Zombicide had fake SG? Tens of thousands of dollars to get the Zombivor for a character when other characters got the Zombivor with it? Tens of thousands of dollars to get the second half of a card deck?
Mantic has certainly done it before, it shouldn't surprise anyone.
Anyway I'm bailing on this thread. It's depressing.
Those aren't fake at all, because none of them were ever intended to be included in the boxed game.
Additionally, for every new survivor + zombivor, you're looking at close to $20k in costs to produce it.
Also, anyone find it odd the game has gridded tiles but comes with a range ruler?
I don't know I think the price is not to bad considering the dollar is heading towards monopoly money territory. They must be risking eating the costs if the dollar drops further.
SeanDrake wrote: I don't know I think the price is not to bad considering the dollar is heading towards monopoly money territory. They must be risking eating the costs if the dollar drops further.
Honestly, you'd be wrong.
You have to compare it to other similar products. Descent is a good barometer here, as others have said.
50 minis. More cards. Proven high quality production. $20 less AT RETAIL. $40 less at "standard online discount".
However, when Mantic continues to release Kickstarters with laughably obvious and silly Fake Stretch Goals (like $150K for the Undead Dwarf King in the Dwarf King's Quest), well...
I actually quite like that undead dwarf king. Nicely done... Mantic has a handle on how to do undead.
Creature Caster tried an approach where they were more upfront about what their stretch goals were- basically just spacing out their reveals for what they planned to release all along, given that they reached a certain minimum funding level.
It'd be nice to see more campaigns be able to be upfront about their just wanting to space out the reveals, rather than actually having to "unlock" things they were going to make anyway.
I'm not really bothered by this campaign doing it (many do) but it just means I won't be paying close attention until later when all of those are out of the way...
If they're going to do fake stretch goals at least have the decency to leave them out of the pitch video. The enemies section has both the armored zombies and the zombie troll, neither of which is "included" in the base game.
Its pretty obvious Mantic has fake stretch goals, and its just fine to call them on it. At the same time, we're in about hour two of a 28 day campaign, so there will be plenty of stuff added. Anyone remember when Mars Attacks stalled and they pretty much had a huge sale in the middle of it to get more money?
The point is, they pretty much already have an idea of what they want to put out, and this KS is just a nice long 28 day reveal. That may not be what KS is for and blah blah blah, but I think thats what this one actually is.
RiTides wrote:
I'm not really bothered by this campaign doing it (many do) but it just means I won't be paying close attention until later when all of those are out of the way...
That's nice.
I'm not sure how 'bothered' anyone really is either though.
ecurtz wrote:If they're going to do fake stretch goals at least have the decency to leave them out of the pitch video. The enemies section has both the armored zombies and the zombie troll, neither of which is "included" in the base game.
Well, they could be saying that IF we get (x) we'll include (y) there, but yeah, I'm pretty sure they were planning on including them all along too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It was a big problem on the zombie bunny one that soda pop was doing because they had a render of the box contents that included more than the "initial" offering.
Like I said, it's a bit dishonest and if we are going to be paying retail for your game directly from you through Kickstarter, there needs to be extra.
As it stands I could wait and get all these stretch goals. In box. At a discount later.
Clearly it will grow, but it has to be chock full of 'fake stretch goals' at this point.
Agreed. Unfortunate that many of the "stretch goal" models have been leaked. I would not pay $100 for whatever the initial offering was of 30 miniatures if I wasn't familiar with Mantic and this IP. This will be a much stronger value at the end of the campaign rather then the beginning. Hype is the life blood of KS campaigns and this strategy generates constant "new" stuff.
ecurtz wrote: If they're going to do fake stretch goals at least have the decency to leave them out of the pitch video. The enemies section has both the armored zombies and the zombie troll, neither of which is "included" in the base game.
Exactly... if this ended today and was funded, people would be getting an incomplete game, retail would be a dead on arrival product and they wouldn't be able to actually complete the project.
That is the definition of fake stretch goals.
Every other KS like SDE and Zombicide which had stretch goals ready to go had a base pledge which met the standard of 'would people buy this at retail' and was actually complete as a game. You would actually pay 100$ for the retail release of SDE, No one would pay for this retail release as it is. To have to 'bulk it up' with stretch goals is dishonest as the game is incomplete. They might as well be selling a new kinda shoe and everyone gets a left shoe and after 50k they will then give everyone a right shoe for free!
Someone should update the thread title when the fake stretches are over so people can actually pay attention to this KS.
I don't mind the "fake" stretch goals.. cuz this will soar way up beyond the fake ones and get to the real ones in notime. They probably just wanted to have a lower funding goal so it will get to the funding level faster, so they had to remove some stuff from the main goal. That said, I think they could have easily just had a 100k goal and that would have funded just fine.
Either way, looking forward to it and I hope it ships much sooner than a year from now But, better to plan too far ahead than not far enough...
Have just woken up after a night shift, first impressions are that the contents thus far are very underwhelming. And as others have said there is currently no real incentive to back this as a result of the single pledge level and until there is a lot more added value. A quality indication for the tiles would be nice as well.So I guess for now it is just a case of playing the waiting game.
They've said the tiles are the same material as Descent.
If this stuff didn't get added, you'd still get a complete game. The Kickstarter is to fund the tooling. More funding there is, the more tools there are, the more you can make... Having a painted sculpt is different to having a tooled plastic mini.
If this stuff didn't get added, you'd still get a complete game. The Kickstarter is to fund the tooling. More funding there is, the more tools there are, the more you can make... Having a painted sculpt is different to having a tooled plastic mini.
Either I don't understand what you're trying to say, or you don't actually know what you're talking about.
If it ended right now you wouldn't have a very full game. And it certainly wouldn't be worth $100.
I'm not seeing where Descent is less than the cost of this (though I'm not a board game shopper and don't know the best places). I just checked Amazon, Descent is £64, this is £56.
Edit: I haven't been keeping abreast of currency rates, is the pound just really strong right now?
Edit also: The "Dwarf King" in the title of the game isn't the Undead model, the fluff that has been on Twitter had a Dwarf King sending the adventurers on the quest in the first place.
If this stuff didn't get added, you'd still get a complete game. The Kickstarter is to fund the tooling. More funding there is, the more tools there are, the more you can make... Having a painted sculpt is different to having a tooled plastic mini.
Either I don't understand what you're trying to say, or you don't actually know what you're talking about.
If it ended right now you wouldn't have a very full game. And it certainly wouldn't be worth $100.
But it isn't ending now its barely run 4 hrs. So isn't that sort of a non-issue?
I really think that we need to be able to distinguish between "planned", "important to the game but removed from the base funding to make the initial funding goal lower" and "completely funded but removed from the box to provide artificial stretch goal fodder".
Most Kickstarters from decently-sized companies have a lot of stretch goals planned. They might even have models sculpted and painted - prototypes are relatively inexpensive compared to tooling for mass production. That doesn't mean that the initial funding goal will be able to cover their inclusion - the point of the stretch goal is to make this possible.
Some companies lower the initial funding goal by removing some of the basic contents to fund later as a stretch goal - I don't see a problem with this. I can think of very few scenarios where a company has actually completely paid for the production of something in advance, and is just tossing it in for a stretch goal. This would probably be something like "full-colour rulebook", or "now you get more than 2 dice".
I am completely fine with the notion that a Kickstarter can start off as a complete game that isn't good value, then become good value through stretch goals, then become excellent value through stretch goals. KS is for developing products, and this is literally developing a product - adding more value and variety to the box while minimising financial risk for Mantic.
Is the Necromancer panel/ card deck the AI driven material?
No real mention of it yet. The contents give off a very Heroquest vibe.
I look forward to the time where everything on the box is actually in the game (like the troll shaman) and we can get to the usual Mantic KS wild ride.
May not be at its true value yet, but it will get there.
I'm wondering if it'll actually retail at 100. Mars Attacks! wasn't even a 100 suggested retail. Maybe they'll shave down some of the components for retail?
I guess the main issue is that it is all a bit disingenuous and transparently 'fake'.
The point here is that if Mantic really needed $50K to fund production of this game, and with $50K the 'game' was going to be what was initially offered - well, who would buy that?
No one.
So roll on 'Fake Stretch Goals' and get us to where we were going to be anyway.
Yeah, it is all part of the Psychology of Kickstarters and How To Generate Excitement 101 - except when it isn't.
People are a lot more aware of KS now, and they are a lot smarter about them too.
We'll eventually get to where this is a 'good deal' - but just map it out ahead of time and dispense with the foolishness up front.
Alpharius wrote: I guess the main issue is that it is all a bit disingenuous and transparently 'fake'.
The point here is that if Mantic really needed $50K to fund production of this game, and with $50K the 'game' was going to be what was initially offered - well, who would buy that?
No one.
So roll on 'Fake Stretch Goals' and get us to where we were going to be anyway.
Yeah, it is all part of the Psychology of Kickstarters and How To Generate Excitement 101 - except when it isn't.
People are a lot more aware of KS now, and they are a lot smarter about them too.
We'll eventually get to where this is a 'good deal' - but just map it out ahead of time and dispense with the foolishness up front.
The hype train doesn't run on info dump at the beginning. It needs constant new hype to move it down the track. I can probably name more than half of the stretch goals based on info from the other Dakka thread , Jake Thornton's Blog, Mantic forums, Beasts of War, and Mantic Podcasts.
What I expect to see:
1. 3D Plastic Dungeon Furnishings. Hoping for doorways
2. AI solo play Cards
3. New PCs: Basilian Sister, Baslian Paladin, Lizardsman, Halfling Thief, Dwarf Engineer, Ninja, Force of Nature shapeshifter character (not sure if this is the same as the Lizardman)
4. New Baddies: Undead Troll, Undead Troll Shaman, Werewolves (teaser trailer for a frame or two), Ghosts,
5. More tiles
That is easily 15 stretch goals going forward.
I don't know how to square the need for marketing hype, something which comes off as stale when you already know about it. And 100% transparency being upfront with fans. I can answer almost every question posted on the Kickstarter because I have been following this game geekily for the last 2 months. Which tells me most people are unaware of these faux "stretch goals" and what all is planned for the game. In short I can't blame Mantic for using the most effective marketing tools at their disposal to maximize profit on this KS campaign.
I guess forum goers are perhaps on the 'highly motivated/informed' side of things and are probably a bit for aware and critical based on experience?
I think that Mantic needs more 'up front honesty' and less 'Platinum Paladin support', but in the end, I think we'll all end up where we were going anyway!
Riquende wrote: I'm not seeing where Descent is less than the cost of this (though I'm not a board game shopper and don't know the best places). I just checked Amazon, Descent is £64, this is £56.
Edit: I haven't been keeping abreast of currency rates, is the pound just really strong right now?
.
I don't know how to square the need for marketing hype, something which comes off as stale when you already know about it. And 100% transparency being upfront with fans. I can answer almost every question posted on the Kickstarter because I have been following this game geekily for the last 2 months. Which tells me most people are unaware of these faux "stretch goals" and what all is planned for the game. In short I can't blame Mantic for using the most effective marketing tools at their disposal to maximize profit on this KS campaign.
For me? Stuff that wasn't going to be in the box anyway shouldn't be a stretch goal. Simple as that.
But you still pledged Alpharius, didn't you? Anyone who loves the dungeon cCrawler genre is probably already onboard. Even if they are a bit frustrated with "fake stretch goals" And if they wait till the last second that is fine too. Very common to see a surge in pledges at the end of a KS campaign anyway.
I think the whole campaign thus far has been masterfully executed from a marketing stand point. Which isn't always the best thing for fans, but it is the most effective. As long as they don't totally alienate fanboy backers. As long as they don't cancel their pledge.
The have been building on this solidly since Mantic Open Day 2014 back in June. Trickle feeding the info out there over the last few weeks. Building and hyping up their fan base first. Their loyal fanboy prohets then go out onto the internet gaming sites and spread the holy word of Mantic. Praise Renton, blessed be his name. Incrementally increasing the information flow closer and closer to launch.
The recipe is much the same after launch. Hype up "new" stuff.
The single pledge level is a new one for me in a gaming KS campaign. My guess is it helps them with order fulfillment side and keeps $1 nay sayers out of the comments section. Also it gives them a more realistic ability to estimate total revenue. But seeing as how you can cancel your order up till the last second maybe not. So what is the bussiness advantage out of a single pledge level?
Don't kind pledging for it now at what's on offer because I know in 28 days it'll be worth it. I do however dislike vastly inflated stretch goals such as in zombicide that were seeing here. I hope their just to cover the amount of free stuff they'll be adding later.
Riquende wrote: I'm not seeing where Descent is less than the cost of this (though I'm not a board game shopper and don't know the best places). I just checked Amazon, Descent is £64, this is £56.
Edit: I haven't been keeping abreast of currency rates, is the pound just really strong right now?
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Nice about £35 in real money but over here its £60ish for a 5yr old game. It's basically pointless attempting to compare them due to the fact that where you are in the world in relation to where they are produced currently has a fairly big effect on the price.
I have never played Descent but am I mistaken that its miniatures are of smaller size than the typical wargame miniatures? I understood that the size of the miniatures of DS is compatible with the rest of the Mantic line.
Could anyone confirm any of the above?
Thanks!
edlowe wrote: Don't kind pledging for it now at what's on offer because I know in 28 days it'll be worth it. I do however dislike vastly inflated stretch goals such as in zombicide that were seeing here. I hope their just to cover the amount of free stuff they'll be adding later.
Hate all you want as long as you still buy! ;-)
Zombicide has been wildly successful. Millions of dollars for a board game launch. Who would have thunk it. I can't blame Mantic or any other bussiness for getting on board this marketing/ KS model even if it is frustrating for fans.
As an aside with Zombicide making real money I wouldn't be surprised if some big boys in the entertainment industry come for their slice of the pie with all the unlicensed likenesses of popular TV show and movie characters used as miniature models.
Riquende wrote: I'm not seeing where Descent is less than the cost of this (though I'm not a board game shopper and don't know the best places). I just checked Amazon, Descent is £64, this is £56.
Edit: I haven't been keeping abreast of currency rates, is the pound just really strong right now?
.
Nice about £35 in real money but over here its £60ish for a 5yr old game. It's basically pointless attempting to compare them due to the fact that where you are in the world in relation to where they are produced currently has a fairly big effect on the price.
Indeed. I see the same differences between Wayland and Miniature Market:
tgmoore wrote: So what is the bussiness advantage out of a single pledge level?
As you say I think ease of picking and dispatching the pledges is a big factor in this. KOW and Deadzone saw some very big mess ups in terms of delivery from Mantic, this lead to multiple packages/ repicks and thus hit Mantic's bottom line.
But also previous KS have seen single backers sitting on multiple pledges and then ejecting them towards the end, this backward slide in the pledge total then sees others get worried and dump their pledges altogether, the single pledge level largely negates this. I think combined with the large lead time that Mantic have thought about this KS a lot more, and hopefully it will be more successful as a result of that.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: But also previous KS have seen single backers sitting on multiple pledges and then ejecting them towards the end
That's a problem of having unnecessary early bird pledge levels, not a problem of having multiple pledge levels.
Mantic has more than enough enthusiastic fans that they'll get a big jump start regardless, there's no need to throw away money or irritate hardcore fans on the arbitrary basis of where they live or what they do for a living.
In the spirit of positiveness though, I don't have an issue with "fake" stretch goals (well, I doubt the stretch goals are fake, it's the starting total that's in all likelihood fake).
Riquende said: Right, so in the US then. Descent is (quickly uses Google) $107 on Amazon.co.uk. Ouch.
But that likely reflects a temporary OOP as many FFG games cycle through---and some gouging from Amazon sellers that know this.
Their popular lines keep getting released again but temporarily go out of availability.
Descent 2nd edition core game is $80 USD full retail from the mfr's site.
@ Baragash That is true, but for most pledge levels backers expect an early bird for each level. By going with (currently?) the single pledge level they are negating that. There would be people who would not back on the principle of not being able to save $10 on a particular pledge level (or at least having the initial chance to save money).
I was excited by this project, but it is just another game and more spending that I do not need. The one year (probably less as they may try to get it out early) lead time makes it easier not to pledge too. That said I hope that this project does well and that backers end up with a fantastic deal.
My copies of Descent are going up this week on ebay to fund this.
Debating whether to bundle all the 1st and 2nd edition stuff together or not, or sell them in 2 separate lots. Shipping will be a bitch one way or the other.
I guess this isn't too bad of deal. I actually would have liked to have seen all these done as board game plastics though, just to match the rest of the game pieces.
And it looks like we'll be hitting the next stretch pretty soon anyways.
"To keep pledge levels easy to understand (another request that we heard from backers) and as gentle on the wallet as possible we have just one pledge level – $100. We want this KS to get as many backers as possible, and hope that at the total rises you will get a huge pile of goodies for your $100. We will need to get as far as expansions before there we outgrow the base pledge (although there will be a few tempting extras to add on along the way!)."
As per the most recent pledge level it does seem like rules will be for KOW Undead rather than the entire KOW range.
"As the funding goals are met, we want to expand beyond the core game and into an almost tabletop RPG, with the rules for generating your own heroes, a complete system for character development, traps, gold, and instructions for building your own dungeons and adventures and complete rules for the entire Mantic Undead range. Once you have played through and become a veteran player this will allow you to develop the game in whatever way you want to, picking and choosing what’s right for your gaming group."
privateer4hire wrote: Riquende said: Right, so in the US then. Descent is (quickly uses Google) $107 on Amazon.co.uk. Ouch.
But that likely reflects a temporary OOP as many FFG games cycle through---and some gouging from Amazon sellers that know this.
Their popular lines keep getting released again but temporarily go out of availability.
Descent 2nd edition core game is $80 USD full retail from the mfr's site.
Sadly not - boardgames are just a lot more expensive in the UK in general! Particularly big, heavy ones produced in the US. Retailers tend to sell them much closer to the RRP as well, which has actually meant that even the base RRP of many boardgame Kickstarters ends up saving UK backers money over retail, even taking shipping into account.
So we're actually talking about $100 vs $80 in terms of RRPs, then. Kickstarters will typically sell the game at or slightly higher than the RRP, but have plenty of extras/exclusives to fill the gap.
Clearly it will grow, but it has to be chock full of 'fake stretch goals' at this point.
Both a hater of fake stretch goals (really, what is wrong with a more honest goal?) and exclusive mini's. Make them available with Mantic points or something as no interest in getting others into a game that they can't get everything for, or make sure there is a regular version available.
My copies of Descent take up too much space, and have not hit the table often enough to justify the storage space my wife is attempting to claim. We're talking 8 or 9 boxes here, plus the big coffin, and a plastic storage bin that has the bulk of the minis in them currently.
This looks a lot simpler to play with the kids, and considering I've actually gotten the wife to play DKH, she is a bit more willing to play a simpler game that can be built upon.
Plus the rest of what all those should bring in is going to help fund the next Darklands campaign. I never said Mantic gets all my monies!
Clearly it will grow, but it has to be chock full of 'fake stretch goals' at this point.
Both a hater of fake stretch goals (really, what is wrong with a more honest goal?) and exclusive mini's. Make them available with Mantic points or something as no interest in getting others into a game that they can't get everything for, or make sure there is a regular version available.
I think all of the previous Kickstarter exclusives were made available with Mantic points. One probable exception was that 'Gabe' model, but that was likely down to the agreements in place.
In fact, from "What does Kickstarter Exclusive mean?" in the FAQ:
Here at Mantic we don't want to release figures through Kickstarter that will then penalise customers who miss out on the campaign. However, we do want to keep our Kickstarter exclusives a little bit special. Therefore, although our exclusive releases will never be sold at retail, they will be available later via the Mantic Points Scheme on our website, or offered as promotional figures at conventions that we attend.
And as Baragash pointed out, really the 'fake' here is the funding target, I think if they asked up front for $200k, and included a lot more in the base game, people (on here) would be happier with it, but maybe Mantic think such a high target will see the pledges roll in more slowly? As ever, there's plenty of discussion to be had on the nature of Kickstarter itself and how various companies seek to game the system...
@ Jeremy and Spartan - we'd love to show you more, but we need to hit the stretches we have first before we can do. It's not about being coy, or even teases, If we show everything now, then what do you have to get excited about later? We've got three goals out at the moment, and already people want to know what's after the Bug, which we said is next.
If we don't hit the things we show, it only causes disappointment in our experience.
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lord marcus wrote: And we have a felica day model. fans of the guild rejoice!
I don't want to play Mr. Internet Lawyer but is this an infringement of an IP? I am guessing no.
I've wondered how Zombicide has gotten away with it making miniatures of far more recognizable and famous TV and movie characters.
@ Jeremy and Spartan - we'd love to show you more, but we need to hit the stretches we have first before we can do. It's not about being coy, or even teases, If we show everything now, then what do you have to get excited about later? We've got three goals out at the moment, and already people want to know what's after the Bug, which we said is next.
If we don't hit the things we show, it only causes disappointment in our experience.
That's one of the more lame things I've ever read.
!
I don't want to play Mr. Internet Lawyer but is this an infringement of an IP? I am guessing no.
I've wondered how Zombicide has gotten away with it making miniatures of far more recognizable and famous TV and movie characters.
No. Because parody is protected in the United States by fair use laws.
I guess this isn't too bad of deal. I actually would have liked to have seen all these done as board game plastics though, just to match the rest of the game pieces.
Can someone translate what they mean by 'premium plastic'? And if we had to accept sub-standard models to appease the boardgamers, how are the board gamers not going to lose their minds like the Metal MYTH figure when they get KoW multipart 'premium plastic' models without integrated bases which have to be assembled?
privateer4hire wrote: Riquende said: Right, so in the US then. Descent is (quickly uses Google) $107 on Amazon.co.uk. Ouch.
But that likely reflects a temporary OOP as many FFG games cycle through---and some gouging from Amazon sellers that know this.
Their popular lines keep getting released again but temporarily go out of availability.
Descent 2nd edition core game is $80 USD full retail from the mfr's site.
Sadly not - boardgames are just a lot more expensive in the UK in general! Particularly big, heavy ones produced in the US. Retailers tend to sell them much closer to the RRP as well, which has actually meant that even the base RRP of many boardgame Kickstarters ends up saving UK backers money over retail, even taking shipping into account.
So we're actually talking about $100 vs $80 in terms of RRPs, then. Kickstarters will typically sell the game at or slightly higher than the RRP, but have plenty of extras/exclusives to fill the gap.
My bad. I didn't notice it was amazon.UK that you had quoted. FFG stuff that's out of stock temporarily has a crazy way of climbing on sites like Amazon.
When Wave 1 X-Wing stuff had temporarily sold out, people were asking for double MSRP and getting it on lots of sites.
"...I've wondered how Zombicide has gotten away with it making miniatures of far more recognizable and famous TV and movie characters."
IANAL but probably lots of factors. Zombicide is successful in our world but probably isn't even a blip on folks owning the rights to those characters you mentioned.
The parody shield is great until a deep pockets company decides to call your bluff. Even if they lose you've been dragged into civil court.
Companies like Mantic and garage/barely emerged from a garage recently businesses likely would pull the minis if they got serious legal correspondence.
cincydooley wrote: I assume the Mantic "premium plastic" on these is restic? Or did they do these models in HIPS?
I assume 'hard plastic' for the ghouls is HIPS... so I assume since this isn't 'boardgame' plastic it has to be restic cleverly disguised in yet a new term to confuse people.
Anything to mislead people for more money I suppose. Board gamers don't mess around when they get duped by material issues.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: My copies of Descent take up too much space, and have not hit the table often enough to justify the storage space my wife is attempting to claim. We're talking 8 or 9 boxes here, plus the big coffin, and a plastic storage bin that has the bulk of the minis in them currently.
Cyporiean wrote: Yes, the KOW models aside from the Ghouls are PVC.
The Ghouls are Polystyrene.
All of them have been out for a few years now.
I'll note that the wraiths that I got from KoW (restic) were extremely soft-featured, the werewolfs are fine (if you like the sculpts) and the mummies are ok (but nearly as soft-featured as the wraiths. For a board game, they'll be fine but I'd almost say that the minis in Deadzone v2 are better quality than Mantic's currect restic/soft plastic/whatever name you want to throw on it.
The figures are the same plastic as Gears of War and Mars attacks. It is not hard plastic and it isn't the super cheap super flexible stuff either.
Not the ones they're touting as being made in "premium plastic."
Im not much of a fan of those werewolves anyway so I'm not sure I'd even buy that add on.
lol I thought you weren't backing?
Some people just like to hang around big KS threads ragging on things.
Also, just to appease another one, board gamers are being specifically warned that those are wargaming minis that require hobby skills to assemble in text underneath the picture, so there's plenty of warning for them - and it's an optional extra for more money anyway.
There will be massive board gaming nerd rage over those hard plastic werewolves, etc even if Mantic had put the warning across the photo with a "red stamp".
I'm still going to grab one if it goes retail (given that the price is right!) just because I like the adventurer models. But if they turn out unworkable, well...
Alpharius wrote: I guess I missed the "premium plastic = PVC" from Mantic earlier.
Is it disappointing that Mantic continues to stick to their confusing and somewhat bogus naming conventions!
I'm on the fence with this one.
It's going to take some convincing still!
That's funny, because here you asked the same question and were told by several different people, and your reply here indicates that you know perfectly well what it is.
Since, by any reasonable definition of "premium" it's an outrageous untruth, Mantic deserve as much ridicule over it as GW get for Finecast.
I've spent a lot of money with Mantic and will probably continue to do so, so I'm no hater either
No problem at all making fun of the stupid name choice, I think they should just stick to calling the whole lot PVC (and these minis boardgame PVC) to avoid confusion, but it is a bit silly pretending to not know what the term means just to stir when they clearly do
I won't be pledging, but I think having just one pledge level is a positive for this kickstarter. It makes fulfillment easier, and I think it is a sign of a well thought out campaign.
Alpharius wrote: I guess I missed the "premium plastic = PVC" from Mantic earlier.
Is it disappointing that Mantic continues to stick to their confusing and somewhat bogus naming conventions!
I'm on the fence with this one.
It's going to take some convincing still!
That's funny, because here you asked the same question and were told by several different people, and your reply here indicates that you know perfectly well what it is.
Alpharius wrote: The fact that I couldn't remember/was confused kind of helps make the point that they shouldn't use terms like that at all anymore.
Also, where's the OP, and why aren't they keeping the thread title updated?!?!?!?
Not to mention 'water carriers' have already been quick to proclaim 'Premium plastic' meant loka/board game plastic opposed to restic when these will not be recasted improved restic but leftover stock from KoW which will be wave 1, intro restic. So not only is the term confusing, but people so quick to upsell mantic's products yet again do them a disservice by confusing people. Sometimes Mantic is better off speaking for themselves opposed to let people put wrong information (and higher expectations) in their mouths.
Just admit it is 'restic' and accept restic means 'buy at your own risk'. If they were refreshing sculpts with new molds/materials, that would be something people would be pretty happy about. 'Premium Plastic' in this usage means 'the worst material and process Mantic can produce'.
Clearly we've updated to Premium scarletsquig, which is like our old well-known scarletsquig, but a bit less detailed. However, we get him fantastically cheaper.
The terminology game IS a bit silly with calling it Premium Plastic, even if they were doing it ironically to take a jab at FineCast (which I don't think they're doing, but would be pretty spot on). I don't hate it as much as some people who've had to deal with it, but I certainly would never rank it above polystyrene as a material. PVC Plastic might be too generic, but there has to be a better term than what they're using. Of course, if they switch to that term, even if it's clear with bright neon signs of the chemical formula, somehow I suspect Alpharius will still not be sure what it is.
Obligatory snark aside, the models on offer look good. The timing and the genre may result in me giving this a miss, but nothing about the offering itself makes me want to go screaming for the hills in terror.
The figures are the same plastic as Gears of War and Mars attacks. It is not hard plastic and it isn't the super cheap super flexible stuff either.
Not the ones they're touting as being made in "premium plastic."
Im not much of a fan of those werewolves anyway so I'm not sure I'd even buy that add on.
lol I thought you weren't backing?
I'm not yet. Like I indicated in an earlier post, I could be persuaded to if the project gets good enough. I did, however, forget that one cannot comment until they put their money in.
Additionally, I was unaware that mantic was calling their restic "premium plastic". I honestly thought their phrase "resin" was actually their restic and their on sprue models (because they do have them) were their premium plastic.
Not to mention 'water carriers' have already been quick to proclaim 'Premium plastic' meant loka/board game plastic opposed to restic
I didn't see anyone say that.
In response to 'Premium Plastic'
The figures are the same plastic as Gears of War and Mars attacks. It is not hard plastic and it isn't the super cheap super flexible stuff either.
Someone then proceeded to call them PVC... And considering we have had multiple different waves of restic, which I guess PVC is a catch all for, I wouldn't say these are deadzone quality, but KoW quality which is different supposedly in technique and material, and was the worst of it being the first wave. So now we are seeing 'premium plastic' being called 3 things, where one of the things is a term for many different things.
Again, more terms trying to confuse what these minis actually are or what to expect. Just say you will get KoW rotting stock which means expect level 1, original restic. I do not think they plan to refactor the molds or casting material or process for improved quality.
Someone then proceeded to call them PVC... And considering we have had multiple different waves of restic, which I guess PVC is a catch all for, I wouldn't say these are deadzone quality, but KoW quality which is different supposedly in technique and material, and was the worst of it being the first wave. So now we are seeing 'premium plastic' being called 3 things, where one of the things is a term for many different things.
Again, more terms trying to confuse what these minis actually are or what to expect. Just say you will get KoW rotting stock which means expect level 1, original restic. I do not think they plan to refactor the molds or casting material or process for improved quality.
Honestly - I sold almost the entirety of my KoW pledge - but from what I looked at, and what I kept - the material wasn't that bad. I debated keeping a set of the werewolves - and I kept and cleaned/assembled a set of the trolls - they were easier to clear up than my Cygnar/Cryx starter boxes. I don't remember mold lines being excessive either.
But the naming is super annoying - the PVC has been called "plastic" "plastic resin" "restic" and is now (laughably) "premium plastic."
In addition to that - we have the majority of the minis in this new "board game plastic" (a name which denotes nothing to me inre: quality , as I don't play board games)
Some of the exclusive stretch goals are in resin, which I assume is just plain old resin?
And to round it out we have some of the ghouls (and I wouldn't be surprised if we see the skellies/zombies) in good old actual "plastic."
It is a confusing mélange of terms for people who don't spend all day living and breathing on wargaming forums. (And for some who do)
The base value for the set is just not there for me, it's not worth 75 quid. There relying on streach goals to get the value in there. That does not sit well with me. Will keep an eye on it but I'm not impressed so far....
Krinsath wrote: Clearly we've updated to Premium scarletsquig, which is like our old well-known scarletsquig, but a bit less detailed. However, we get him fantastically cheaper.
I lol'ed at this
On that note, I love scarletsquig's posts- I find him to be a great "neutral" voice in many ways- willing to criticize some Mantic decisions, but not just waiting to pounce on them for anything, either. And someone who actually buys their products and thus knows what he's talking about.
I don't understand all the confusion, it's right on the Kickstarter front page
What material are the miniatures made from?
The miniatures are made in multiple pieces, but provided fully assembled (unless stated otherwise), and made from highly detailed coloured plastic. The material is a type of PVC commonly used in board games such as Fantasy Flight Games’ Gears of War and our very own Loka. This allows us to have a high level of detail whilst keeping the dynamic poses required for such a fast-paced game, and of course making them very affordable as you would expect from Mantic.
Note that this material is not the harder PVC commonly known as “restic”, and is not sprued hard plastic.
Since it's written in broad daylight for anyone to read, I'm going to now assume there will be cries of "bait and switch" with the old adage "Mantic... almost". Can't wait!
privateer4hire wrote: "...I've wondered how Zombicide has gotten away with it making miniatures of far more recognizable and famous TV and movie characters."
IANAL but probably lots of factors. Zombicide is successful in our world but probably isn't even a blip on folks owning the rights to those characters you mentioned.
The parody shield is great until a deep pockets company decides to call your bluff. Even if they lose you've been dragged into civil court.
Companies like Mantic and garage/barely emerged from a garage recently businesses likely would pull the minis if they got serious legal correspondence.
Miramax sent a C&D (?) on two of the Zombicide exclusives. But, after altering the sculpts, they were allowed to release them (that is, the two parties reached a settlement). In S2, the number of celebrity exclusive survivors noticeably dropped, although S2 backers commented that there were too many survivors. It's not clear to me if the survivors are parody (the likenesses are not exaggerated or satirized), but this doesn't matter, since most of these issues are settled, not brought to court.
overtyrant wrote: The base value for the set is just not there for me, it's not worth 75 quid. There relying on streach goals to get the value in there. That does not sit well with me. Will keep an eye on it but I'm not impressed so far....
overtyrant wrote: The base value for the set is just not there for me, it's not worth 75 quid. There relying on streach goals to get the value in there. That does not sit well with me. Will keep an eye on it but I'm not impressed so far....
£60, not £75.
And really, only one of us needs to buy it...
The pound is strong then! And I see you have volunteered lol!
judgedoug wrote: I don't understand all the confusion, it's right on the Kickstarter front page
What material are the miniatures made from?
The miniatures are made in multiple pieces, but provided fully assembled (unless stated otherwise), and made from highly detailed coloured plastic. The material is a type of PVC commonly used in board games such as Fantasy Flight Games’ Gears of War and our very own Loka. This allows us to have a high level of detail whilst keeping the dynamic poses required for such a fast-paced game, and of course making them very affordable as you would expect from Mantic.
Note that this material is not the harder PVC commonly known as “restic”, and is not sprued hard plastic.
Since it's written in broad daylight for anyone to read, I'm going to now assume there will be cries of "bait and switch" with the old adage "Mantic... almost". Can't wait!
It was in regards to the "premium plastic" they used to describe the add in pack. I didn't know what "actual" material was is all.
It's plenty clear what the material is in the box. As such, and because it's that material, the value doesn't seem there for many yet.
overtyrant wrote: The base value for the set is just not there for me, it's not worth 75 quid. There relying on streach goals to get the value in there. That does not sit well with me. Will keep an eye on it but I'm not impressed so far....
£60, not £75.
And really, only one of us needs to buy it...
The pound is strong then! And I see you have volunteered lol!
I'm in on it at the moment (went in blind to snag an EB), but it all depends on what end up in the box, and what I really want is add-ons to be able to get more of the skellie archers for KoW.
judgedoug wrote: I don't understand all the confusion, it's right on the Kickstarter front page
What material are the miniatures made from?
The miniatures are made in multiple pieces, but provided fully assembled (unless stated otherwise), and made from highly detailed coloured plastic. The material is a type of PVC commonly used in board games such as Fantasy Flight Games’ Gears of War and our very own Loka. This allows us to have a high level of detail whilst keeping the dynamic poses required for such a fast-paced game, and of course making them very affordable as you would expect from Mantic.
Note that this material is not the harder PVC commonly known as “restic”, and is not sprued hard plastic.
Since it's written in broad daylight for anyone to read, I'm going to now assume there will be cries of "bait and switch" with the old adage "Mantic... almost". Can't wait!
Again, that applies to the main game. At least some of the optional add on figures in this add on:
Okay guys, no more bickering, please! Please post about the topic, the Mantic Dungeon Saga campaign, rather than attacking other posters... if you have an issue with any post, just hit the yellow triangle. Thanks!
What I find interesting though, is that there's mentions in the videos of 2 bad guys - The nasty Necromancer dude and the bound spirit of an Elven Mage. - Hopefully, that means you can have at least a team of 2 baddies together when the kickstarters fleshed out more.
Interestingly, the kickstarter video also talks about the 'Absolute Depravity' pledge level, which I'm assuming is the 'all the things level' - which doesn't exist yet....
RiTides wrote: Okay guys, no more bickering, please! Please post about the topic, the Mantic Dungeon Saga campaign, rather than attacking other posters... if you have an issue with any post, just hit the yellow triangle. Thanks!
And I've put the link in the OP
Thanks for the link... sorry if I was seeming a little bitchy... someone set me off at work today... been a right hag all day.
It's called advertising. It's like when sommat costs 24.99 (less than 25). You can't not put a positive spin on things. PVC may be a suitable alternative, although Mantic did want a brand to sell under (like finecast or warcast), and that's why.
EDIT: Sorry mod - that came up whilst typing. Normal services resumed.
Zatsuku wrote: Is there any mention of rules for playing without a player taking control of the villains? I really hate always getting stuck in that role.
Yep. Coop as a stretch goal. See the game designer's Quirkworthy blog for more DS gameplay discussion!
overtyrant wrote: The base value for the set is just not there for me, it's not worth 75 quid. There relying on streach goals to get the value in there. That does not sit well with me. Will keep an eye on it but I'm not impressed so far....
Check the pound/dollar conversion rate currently. It's like £59, not £75.
Well heck. new update with legendary character add on pack as the unlocked reward. 25 for 4 resin heroes. I'd rather it be twenty, so at the moment i am not going to up my pledge.
$25k gap to buy 4 resin figures certainly isn't a sexy stretch goal. I guess it's better to do it now when people will join regardless rather than later, when the campaign starts to stall.
$6.25 per resin Heroic Character? Sure. I can do that. $30 for the undead add-on? Possibly, will determine at the end of the Kickstarter. My goal is to keep it under $250 after all is said and done. Oh, and how bout the people who have no interest in the game just keep your yaps shut? There have been 8 pages of whining from some of the usual suspects, and the mods are about to get really sick of me hitting the yellow friendship button 400 times in the next ten minutes. You don't like it the premise and have no intention of buying? Surf and leave (if you feel the need to read). But the fake stretch goal nonsense got stupid-I'm glad it was pointed out how they aren't fake at all, they're done this way with good reasoning that was quoted to bring in a much lower initial goal to entice more people to back. Makes more sense than some of the FSGs certain posters claim weren't fake at all during the Z-cide Kickstarter. But hey, we got Mantic Fanbois/Water Carriers, GW White Knights...how bout C'MON sycophants? Great...now let's all shut up and enjoy a new, fun dungeon crawler!!
decker_cky wrote: $25k gap to buy 4 resin figures certainly isn't a sexy stretch goal. I guess it's better to do it now when people will join regardless rather than later, when the campaign starts to stall.
At least the price sounds reasonable for resin figures.
Compel wrote: No mention of that I'm afraid, Zatsuku.
What I find interesting though, is that there's mentions in the videos of 2 bad guys - The nasty Necromancer dude and the bound spirit of an Elven Mage. - Hopefully, that means you can have at least a team of 2 baddies together when the kickstarters fleshed out more.
Interestingly, the kickstarter video also talks about the 'Absolute Depravity' pledge level, which I'm assuming is the 'all the things level' - which doesn't exist yet....
Incorrect. Jake Thornton (the designer) has discussed solo play deeply on his Blog Quirkworthy. It will be a stretch goal.
timetowaste85 wrote: Oh, and how bout the people who have no interest in the game just keep your yaps shut?
You should invest some time in actually reading the posts then. I mean, I am assuming you have some time to waste to do that.... Most of us offering critique have said we don't see the value...yet. Yet being the operative word.
There have been 8 pages of whining from some of the usual suspects, and the mods are about to get really sick of me hitting the yellow friendship button 400 times in the next ten minutes.
Again, read them. None of it has been whining. There's well articulated critique.
But the fake stretch goal nonsense got stupid-I'm glad it was pointed out how they aren't fake at all, they're done this way with good reasoning that was quoted to bring in a much lower initial goal to entice more people to back.
Well, no. It isn't nonsense, as many of us have already explained. Want to entice people to back right away and not wait? Put together a package worth backing at the beginning. For a lot of us, it isn't there yet. There's very little incentive to back right now.
Makes more sense than some of the FSGs certain posters claim weren't fake at all during the Z-cide Kickstarter. But hey, we got Mantic Fanbois/Water Carriers, GW White Knights...how bout C'MON sycophants? Great...now let's all shut up and enjoy a new, fun dungeon crawler!!
Please, list me the Zombicide stretch goals that were items that were added to the base box, and will be in said base box when it hits retail.
Then, list me the Zombicide stretch goals that were items added outside of the base box as incentives for backers that will not be in said base box when it hits retail.
I'm not a gambler, but I think one list is going to be much longer than the other......
There's a sizable difference between "stretch goals you don't like" and "disingenuous fake stretch goals."
timetowaste85 wrote: Oh, and how bout the people who have no interest in the game just keep your yaps shut?
Everyone I see here commenting has backed Mantic stuff before and we're all interested in tabletop games.
There have been 8 pages of whining from some of the usual suspects
Feel free to use specifics any time.
and the mods are about to get really sick of me hitting the yellow friendship button 400 times in the next ten minutes.
THe problem there is you, no one else.
You don't like it the premise and have no intention of buying? Surf and leave
We *do* like the premise. We don't like Mantics KS shenanigans that are getting more obvious every time, and it seems they still haven't learned that we really don't like it when they use dodgy terms like "premium plastic". That's worth discussing and complaining about - it's resolved issues in the past such as unannounced metal transitions.
But the fake stretch goal nonsense got stupid-I'm glad it was pointed out how they aren't fake at all, they're done this way with good reasoning that was quoted to bring in a much lower initial goal to entice more people to back.
Which means it *is* nonsense. They don't need the funding to fund the items, they're using it as a socialogical device - perhaps mistakenly because it turns a lot of us off.
Alex C wrote: I just find it odd that people still complain about fake stretch goals when it's a staple of pretty much every big KS project nowerdays.
Whatever, it is what it is, I'll leave y'all to whine about it.
Like what? Show them to me. Because that's not true at all.
Myths first stretch goal was expansion material. It's second was stuff not included in the box.
None of the Zombicide ones partake in them.
Super Dungeon explore didn't.
I can go on.
Journey
Shadows of Brimstone
I know that by the end it will have good value. It's just that, you know, I'd rather they were a bit more honest. about it. If it's going to cost $150k or $200k to produce, I wish they'd set that as the target and have real stretch goals from that point onward....
It looks like I wasn't clear enough... the next person to make a post only attacking other posters (whether they are in favor, or opposed, to the campaign) will be getting a short vacation from Dakka.
Dakka's rule #2 is Stay On Topic. The topic here is the Dungeon Saga Kickstarter- not your opinion of other posters in this thread.
Just quoting this over to the new page to make sure everyone is aware of it, since it got caught by the page rollover. No more OT posts in here, please:
RiTides wrote: It looks like I wasn't clear enough... the next person to make a post only attacking other posters (whether they are in favor, or opposed, to the campaign) will be getting a short vacation from Dakka.
Dakka's rule #2 is Stay On Topic. The topic here is the Dungeon Saga Kickstarter- not your opinion of other posters in this thread.
I like the upgrade designs, and the concept of upgraded character models even more, but I still would prefer seeing everything made out of the same material, with the option to have the resin versions as add ons remain.
I'm looking at this as an entry level dungeon crawler for playing with the kids. I'm not too fond of the idea of them smashing resins pieces all over the board when the dice decide to betray them.
Alex C wrote: Yes, because Mantic will add absolutely nothing of value to this in the next month...
Jeez...
Why should anyone pledge on what appears to be a vastly overpriced package right now though?
At this point, most pledges I'd say are speculative ones based on what we expect will be included in about 3 weeks' time for a hundred buck plus postage. Mine certainly is.
KS in this form is a game, and while I expect that the final outcome will be pretty good in the end, there's no reason we can't have a bit of fun in the meantime poking at the fake stretch goals and silly parts of "the game" that Mantic's playing with us here.
Not to mention 'water carriers' have already been quick to proclaim 'Premium plastic' meant loka/board game plastic opposed to restic when these will not be recasted improved restic but leftover stock from KoW which will be wave 1, intro restic.
Slight correction - the "Wave 1 intro Restic" is actually much better than the Kings of War KS stuff. The undead cavalry and wraiths predate the KoWKS, and while the wraiths are solidly decent, the Undead Cavalry are actually really good. I'd actually say that the DreadBall restic (Wave 3) is overall worse quality than the KoW Restic (Wave 2) as well. I don't have my DZ stuff yet, but most of that will be shoved aside in favour of GW plastic and metal anyway....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yonan wrote: The solo play deck wasn't mentioned 'til over halfway through the Deadzone campaign, so here's hoping they decide to do one here too.
They've talked about co-op being added in. Jake apparently likes a kind of "competitive co-op". Which sounds like a bit of a spank, but whatever as long as there's some form of co-op in there. It'll be a fake stretch goal at some stage since it sounded like those rules are already somewhat written.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Resin characters? A bit of a gamble to buy these from Mantic, I have to say. While the price is reasonable, their sculpting is generally quite uneven and may or may not match concept art. While the rest of the stuff shown for this KS looks quite nice, I'd still want to see sculpts or even resin masters before being willing to drop an additional $25 on them.
I have the resin upgrade bits for the Forge Father gun and dreadnought thing, they were just fine. Good resin, good cast. Not gak like Forge World and not heavenly like Mierce. Just okay.
I still think it's a gamble doing resin instead of boardgame plastic versions of the upgrades.
Cheap plastic ones might get more buy in too, but I'm guessing they're resin since they're exclusives.
Of course with resin, they can cast a finite amount and not have to worry about leftovers when they get those final numbers.
Maybe I'm just coming at this as a true boardgame rather than a miniatures game played on a board. Who knows how everything will shake out in the end anyways.
judgedoug wrote: I have the resin upgrade bits for the Forge Father gun and dreadnought thing, they were just fine. Good resin, good cast. Not gak like Forge World and not heavenly like Mierce. Just okay.
Azazelx wrote: I know that by the end it will have good value. It's just that, you know, I'd rather they were a bit more honest. about it. If it's going to cost $150k or $200k to produce, I wish they'd set that as the target and have real stretch goals from that point onward....
I can agree with that. I also see how some of the additions are things they'd consider releasing the product without.
Mantic for sure is too eager to have the 'funded in 4 minutes' ribbon on their mantle, something that's not really useful. I think a $100k or $150k project that starts with a lot more minis looks a lot better, and isn't going to risk hitting a lull from an established kickstarter company like Mantic.
Still...in the end it doesn't really matter, so I don't care too much.
judgedoug wrote: I have the resin upgrade bits for the Forge Father gun and dreadnought thing, they were just fine. Good resin, good cast. Not gak like Forge World and not heavenly like Mierce. Just okay.
gak like FW, eh?
That's an interesting comment.
So have they only done resin bits thusfar?
Unless I'm somehow been super unlucky, well, everything I've gotten from FW has been miscast and/or laden with terrible mold lines. Which is especially sad as all my Eldar stuff is supposed to be smooth and wraithbone and not supposed to look like 18-minute cast iron T-34 turrets.
I'm not really interested in the number of minis I get in a KS but mostly the quality and the diversity of the sculpts. I don't really understand what's the point of getting 2-3 different heroes like Orlaf (the barbarian) which I very much like, one in plastic, 2 in resin. I mean, once the model has been sculpted it doesn't really cost much to Mantic to start flushing it out in numbers. Also, 20K for 1 plastic dwarf king that should've been in the starter box to start with? NO. Ghosts look OK. But 3 identical prepainted? And for a 25K stretch goal for what will be "premium" plastic? NO. If they had bothered with 3 different sculpts and thus painting them 3 times (and not once), I might be more interested although it still wouldn't justify the 25K "needed". Anyway, with 1800 backers I think I'll wait a lot before and if I jump on this.
I was sure that this was going to fund but I'm also sure Mantic is stretching the cord a bit too much with their followers...
Mantic for sure is too eager to have the 'funded in 4 minutes' ribbon on their mantle, something that's not really useful. I think a $100k or $150k project that starts with a lot more minis looks a lot better, and isn't going to risk hitting a lull from an established kickstarter company like Mantic.
Agreed.
Zombicide S3 had a funding goal of $100k. And it started out with tons of things.
judgedoug wrote: I have the resin upgrade bits for the Forge Father gun and dreadnought thing, they were just fine. Good resin, good cast. Not gak like Forge World and not heavenly like Mierce. Just okay.
So have they only done resin bits thusfar?
They have done a few resin figures as KS bonuses for big spenders, iirc a "black resin" ogre if you spent over 'x' amount on the KOW Kickstarter and it was either a big plague gribbly or Rebel commander for Deadzone.
Rather than being exclusive sculpts they were just resin versions of the retail figures. I remember seeing a version of the ogre, a lot of flash but it looked nice. Have seen nothing of the others. Scarletsquig can provide more concrete details on these though.
As for the game, I like the look of the ghosts. Are we to assume that greater variety of sculpts of the Undead is a future stretch goal?
"We’ve seen some chatter about a low-value pledge level – perhaps $1 – that just gives people access to the add-ons without having to get the game. Is this something you’d like to have?"
from the latest update suggests not, but it looks like they are open to it happening. I would happily pledge for the exclusive resin figures on their own merit.
As positive as I am about this kickstarter I struggle with the value right now. However I'm still in because that gets us closer to future stretch goals and the higher value I'm after.
So, if the project ceases to interest me I will pull my pledge. What's the logic (not having a pop - genuinely curious) of not pledging now and pulling out later? Its monopoly money until the end of the KS after all.
OT - I'd prefer legendary minis in game plastic, they need to address the material issues raised, I want more minis and dungeon architecture, tiles and expansions are things that will really get the KS going.
Sirio wrote: . Also, 20K for 1 plastic dwarf king that should've been in the starter box to start with? NO.
Why should the undead dwarf king have been in the starter box? The 'Dwarf King' in the game's title is a different Dwarf King, the one who sent the adventurers on the quest.
Ghosts look OK. But 3 identical prepainted? And for a 25K stretch goal for what will be "premium" plastic? NO.
The ghosts are neither prepainted, nor premium plastic. They are probably identical, which I don't particularly like.
You know, it's fine to not like this, but making up stuff to complain about isn't cool, kids.
Sirio wrote: Also, 20K for 1 plastic dwarf king that should've been in the starter box to start with? NO. Ghosts look OK. But 3 identical prepainted? And for a 25K stretch goal for what will be "premium" plastic? NO. If they had bothered with 3 different sculpts and thus painting them 3 times (and not once).
Couple of corrections for you there. The Dwarf King stretch goal is one evil character, a new board tile and additional rules/missions; not just one model. Also, the ghosts are not prepainted. Nothing is prepainted in the campaign.
I do agree that multiple poses would be nice and I'm fairly sure they have mentioned this in one of the teasers somewhere... so hopefully we'll get additional sculpts as later stretch goals
Hmm.. this started with 22 minis at $100... I know the KS is adding minis for free, but how much of those will end up in the box set anyway?
Mars Attacks was a lot more clear, if it was the game box being upgraded, it was stated. Not sure if all of the current freebies are going to be included in the box or not anyway (with the exception of the resin exclusive).
Not so keen on KS exclusives as paid add-ons either, I think this will be the first Mantic KS where I ditch the "gotta catch 'em all" mentality for the exclusives, $8 per exclusive is too much.
Compel wrote: Interestingly, the kickstarter video also talks about the 'Absolute Depravity' pledge level, which I'm assuming is the 'all the things level' - which doesn't exist yet....
We already have the Absolute Depravity level. The graphic for the Dungeon Master pledge says that this is a "Sweet spot pledge of Absolute Depravity"
At least with all the current stretches included we're over 30 figures in the box, and that's not counting exclusives.
Not that terrible for just the first day. I don't recall Mantic ever really going wild until later in the campaign.
Just wait for the day they decide to unveil 3d terrain accessories, which I'd be shocked if they didn't end up doing. You know that total will start flying again.
scarletsquig wrote: Hmm.. this started with 22 minis at $100... I know the KS is adding minis for free, but how much of those will end up in the box set anyway?
Mars Attacks was a lot more clear, if it was the game box being upgraded, it was stated. Not sure if all of the current freebies are going to be included in the box or not anyway (with the exception of the resin exclusive).
Yes, I think getting to see what a retail version would contain (and how much that would cost) would be pretty helpful - especially for those potential backers that don't use KS much or have no experience with the way Mantic's kickstarters tend to explode towards the end. Really, this is pretty much a clubhouse thing for people who know Mantic anyway.
(on the other hand: out of 4300 backers in the Deadzone KS only 29 backed at the "retail version" level. Looks like Mantic have no interest in selling that via KS)
So in the mail I got for update 6, there's a picture of the resin heroes that says "added FREE to Dungeon Master pledges". But the text says they're payed addons?
Mymearan wrote: So in the mail I got for update 6, there's a picture of the resin heroes that says "added FREE to Dungeon Master pledges". But the text says they're payed addons?
Yeah, they done goofed.
If you check it on the site it shows it as an add on.
Hmm. Well interesting so far, the addition of the book of manticness is nice as it is a hook into mini gamers not boardgamers. I would have it as a free electronic download though to get the former group in.
But handling wise not impressed.
Mantic Model Material
Ye Gods guys. Stick a picture chart up showing each material on example models. And premium plastic is the worse name for a sub par hobby plastic. It lacks the ease of hard plastic, the details of resin etc. I know they have generally got better and my biggest beef is now mould line placement not the material itself (though still not happy), but still. It isn't even the best in class which I think remains trollcast spun resin.
Poor opening offer
Update that graphic sharpish... I would hope once the painted prepared stretch goals are out the way you have a new graphic showing what you actually want to put in the box. As it is the dungeon game environment is congested and this has no USP that will make people who think Mantic is an insect that eats its partner pre-pay for something they have to wait a year for.
Really coming in at $250,000 starting but with a better initial box set would have been a darn site more exciting and generated a lot more enthusiasm.
Likewise stuff like optional paid extras should have had a limited menu to start with to give people an idea of your direction and intent.
Rules... (progression)
I think what people want is WHQ style progression. I was always sceptical the core DKH rules mechanic (lite stuff, ideal to hang a tactical challenge off though) would go well with character progression in a meaningful way. The idea of flipping the card over to get the upgraded hero doesn't seem to give that nuanced increase.
So if things continue to progress in this way I can see the WHQ market gap remaining...
A solo dungeon master game might be fun incidentally, battling wave after wave of heroes
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scarletsquig wrote: Hmm.. this started with 22 minis at $100... I know the KS is adding minis for free, but how much of those will end up in the box set anyway?
Mars Attacks was a lot more clear, if it was the game box being upgraded, it was stated. Not sure if all of the current freebies are going to be included in the box or not anyway (with the exception of the resin exclusive).
Not so keen on KS exclusives as paid add-ons either, I think this will be the first Mantic KS where I ditch the "gotta catch 'em all" mentality for the exclusives, $8 per exclusive is too much.
It also suffers from being a fantasy game. There is no unique look like football or a certain type of sci fi skirmish. I have a bunch of models I can use for this, no need to get add-ons unless they are something special.
Mymearan wrote: So in the mail I got for update 6, there's a picture of the resin heroes that says "added FREE to Dungeon Master pledges". But the text says they're payed addons?
Yeah, they done goofed.
If you check it on the site it shows it as an add on.
I'd prefer free though!
On the site is also ambiguous. The legendary heros are mentioned as an add-on as well as a strech goal. On the other hand the Crypt Stalkers for $30 are referred solely as an add-on. It's not clear.
I think my biggest problem is just the gap between stretch goals. It's fine to have a reduced 'core' set to start the KS off with, but you can't then have $25 000 gaps to add in 1-3 models at a time. They are currently at nearly 70% of the total number of backers for Mars Attacks (albeit 35% of the funding), and if this is a 'smaller scale' project then it isn't being reflected in the scaling of the stretch goals.
Also not helping are the large stretch goals to simply reach paid add-ons, especially this early in the game.
Stretch goals for paid add-ons are just the worst. I can feel my heart hardening against Mantic on that one.
Plus, I really don't want to put any 'real money' on this until I've received my Mars Attacks minis so I can find out if I even like the material. Couldn't Mantic have waited a month?
You can't ever slow down on the KS train. Apparently.
As for the resin heroes, I think it's pretty clear - it is indeed a $25,000 stretch goal in order to allow us to buy them as paid add-ons. And yeah, it's not especially endearing when the basic box still isn't filled out yet - it's clearly the way they're hoping to get people to pad out their $100 pledges - so expect to see a fair bit of this sort of thing.
I've already pledged my $100. Well, $95. So I'm content to sit on that and shoot the gak here with you guys - I'm not the sort who micromanages their pledge by adding more money every 2 days based on add-ons. I'll adjust on the last day or via the PM. - But they're not exactly making it an irresistible deal for others and new backers to buy into - especially the BG crowd or those who are not familiar with the way that Mantic plays the KS game.
I also kinda think their new "premium plastic" moniker for Restic has the potential to bite them in the arse on this one with the BG crowd. They should probably show some photos, etc of the raw models, but then I guess less people might buy them. They should also probably clarify in big red letters that "coloured plastic" does not mean pre-painted. While I thought it was obvious, there's been at least two posters in this thread who seem to think it means pre-paints, and on reflection, I guess if English isn't your native tongue, "coloured" could easily read as "painted".
I'd post this in the KS comments, but... feth, I'm not going in there.
Azazelx wrote: I'd post this in the KS comments, but... feth, I'm not going in there.
As someone who also avoids the comments on Mantic KS, it has so far been broadly constructive and not "feth this I'll wait for the update e-mails".So far.....
Yeah I'm not too sure about the plastic, premium plastic and hard plastic. Hard plastic will be the standard sprue PVC, premium plastic is restic (what's that like anyway?) and regular plastic is boardgame pieces (like Mars Attack or Zombicide?).
The paid add-on stretch seems reasonable; it's clearly a colletor thing, and at an extra $25, if half of the current punters add it we're onto the next goal right away.
The coloured thing is a good point - they could really do with some images of what you actually get in the box. For instance, are the bases really textured like that?
Edit: They've got a photo of the contents that shows them coloured but not painted:
Did everyone else just get a "we're here to help you" message from Mantic/this KS? At a guess, it might be there to help out the BG/Heroquest crowd and make the KS a nice experience for them?
Herzlos wrote: Yeah I'm not too sure about the plastic, premium plastic and hard plastic. Hard plastic will be the standard sprue PVC, premium plastic is restic (what's that like anyway?) and regular plastic is boardgame pieces (like Mars Attack or Zombicide?).
Not quite; hard plastic is standard sprue polystyrene, specifically Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene or ABS for short, premium plastic aka restic is standard PVC like half the ranges from Mantic and Privateer Press, boardgame plastic is a much different recipe of PVC which gives a softer, more flexible and hence more resilient product with the addition of dyes to make them coloured.
The difference between seasons/games of Mantic and Privateer Press released is just a matter of minor tinkering with the recipe to make them easier to work with, less prone to faults, get sharper detail, etc, otherwise it's all the same.
The 'premium plastic' moniker itself is stupid, but the material is fine.
Herzlos wrote: Yeah I'm not too sure about the plastic, premium plastic and hard plastic. Hard plastic will be the standard sprue PVC, premium plastic is restic (what's that like anyway?) and regular plastic is boardgame pieces (like Mars Attack or Zombicide?).
The paid add-on stretch seems reasonable; it's clearly a colletor thing, and at an extra $25, if half of the current punters add it we're onto the next goal right away.
Hard Plastic = polystyrene like what is used by GW, WGF, etc. It's the one that takes plastic glue and is generally viewed as a good mass-market material. Very little variation from one shot of a sprue to another.
"Premium" Plastic = Restic, which is a formulation of PVC. It's not particularly easy to clean/work with compared to most materials, and can easily be miscast. Variation between models can be huge in terms of mold lines and details. A decent low-cost material, but risky to buy sight-unseen; you can very easily end up with a dud cast which, while Mantic is good about replacing such things, is another hassle. Probably the material you will told to avoid if possible by most posters around here.
Board game plastic is Mantic's new gig for Mars Attacks, DBX and now this. It's similar to Loka and Gears of War from all reports. Single-piece and supposedly without massive obnoxious lines. However, we've not really gotten a large amount of the stuff into the market so quality remains a question Mark.
As far as why people are bothered by stretch goals for paid add-ones, you essentially have no stretch goal for that slot. If Mantic offered something that nobody wanted, there is no benefit to the project for that bracket. While sometimes to keep pace, goals are put up for less than when they would really make, that goes into the "games" that people dislike. I think if they just made those available more on a schedule than at a funding amount, people would be less put off by them.
I think I'm just going to list the contents of the box and mini count this time in the OP rather than doing the usual "Kickstarter bonus freebie" thing.. we don't know the RRP of the box at the moment, or what it will contain so I don't want to be misleading.
With the lack of clarity of what is going to end up in the eventual retail box I wonder if it's a case of mantic not actually knowing yet
Maybe the add-ons resins are potential add in's to the main box, but only if enough people order them
If so it becomes cost effective (and much more time efficient) to switch them to plastic like they did for the strider mech in deadzone (they'll offer extras or refunds for those who don't want plastic), and once a sculpt is in plastic it becomes cheap enough to stick it in the main box
In it's current guise, yes, I can see it retailing at about £30, but there's still 26 days of freebies to add in so it'll be a completely different prospect at the end.
Premium resin from Mantic is actually good. They mean, actual resin, not restic or pvc or anything else.
I have some of their resin minis and they make restic look like crap.
I've updated the OP in the usual fashion, but until a clearer picture of what is in the retail box emerges, it is safe to assume that the only actual freebies that currently exist are the things clearly marked as Kickstarter Exclusive.
So, 2 resin minis, a mini-book and an art print currently.
I think Alph's point is that they really should stop adding the word "premium" to everything.
I agree - Both because it sounds stupid (like "Finecast" is a stupid name regardless of the actual quality of the stuff), because "Premium Plastic" for restic is a terrible descriptor since it's a lower-quality material than HIPS, and because in a world where everything is "Premium", nothing is premium....
Really? Another mantic Kickstarter? I refuse to believe they don't have the capital to fund this project themselves. I want to be on their side as they're an upstart British company, but if can't help but think they're starting to abuse the Kickstarter format.
I'm totally fine with them using KS to raise the capital. I don't think they're rolling in liquid funds or anything. Most of their funds would be tied up in production and pumping out their existing KS products. The stretch goal game they're playing on the other hand is a bit shamefully cynical of them.
It doesn't matter if Mantic is a big or small company. There is nothing saying Kickstarter can only be used by small, independant companies, and I'm getting sick of hearing otherwise. From a kid in his basement to Mantic to Veronica Mars, KS is simply a platform for a creator to solitic funds from potential fans of their product, nothing more.
Yonan wrote: They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.
I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.
Yonan wrote: They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.
I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.
There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.
Not the only way, but definitely the best way. If they rely on their own capital, it'll be much smaller scale than getting third party funding. If they borrow or get an investor then we'll get less value for our money as the investor will get the interest or otherwise get a cut. They may even have some say in the development of the product.
I much prefer when *we* get the "interest" on the investment, and *we* get a say in the production of the product. Patronage of great products is one of the best things that has happened lately and I'll happily pledge to help create good products if we reap the rewards.
Yonan wrote: They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.
I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.
There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.
Ok, although they are "technically" doing nothing wrong, I do feel that it's a slight abuse of the format. Mantic attempt to dress up what is essentially a pre-order as a Kickstarter.
It would be a pre-order if the product existed or was close to being finished. It's not - it's a year from completion. They still have to do all the tooling and write most or all of the scenarios and polish the rules, probably need to add a lot to them still too. Sorry mate, but Mantic is basically the prime example of a "kickstarter company" that uses it well. They develop an idea, work on it enough to make a prototype, put it on kickstarter to get the funding, then actually make the product.
Yonan wrote: They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.
I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.
Yonan wrote: They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.
I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.
There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.
Ok, although they are "technically" doing nothing wrong, I do feel that it's a slight abuse of the format. Mantic attempt to dress up what is essentially a pre-order as a Kickstarter.
Based on every kickstarter threads in dakkadakka, I can honestly declare that 100% of kickstarters are actually against letter or spirit of kickstarting.
Yonan wrote: They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.
I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.
There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.
Ok, although they are "technically" doing nothing wrong, I do feel that it's a slight abuse of the format. Mantic attempt to dress up what is essentially a pre-order as a Kickstarter.
They may be technically disguising a preorder, but it is still a true KS as Mantic will be using the funds gathered to add real stretch goals I'm sure, as they've done it with every project. We will get to a point where new models, new terrain, and other things are being created for KS backers and it will be solely because of the funds raised. I'm perfectly happy Mantic uses Kickstarter because they can gauge in real time the sales and potential sales of the product, thus allowing them to create some of those cool stretch goals that they would not have bothered to risk money on making if they didn't know what the audience for the game would be.
Yonan wrote: Did Mantic pull a raging heroes and incorrectly update a stretch goal value showing us the initial value before they jacked it up substantially? ; p
Yes. You should put your $250k infographic back up...
To be fair, I think the person running this for Mantic is doing a KS for the first time, all the others were run by James Hewitt if I'm not mistaken, and he has since vanished into the black hole that is the GW writers room.
squall018 wrote: Its not the end of the world. Just funny that it happened twice in a row. They fixed them both quickly.
Gives us something to lollygag about if nothing else!
Speaking of James, I wonder how life at the Empire is treating him. Easy to forget decent people work there. *shock* maybe he was the one who came up with Murderfang!!
I get that putting the wrong value for the stretch goal was a mistake and frankly I don't care about them changing it but it was stupid to make the change. They're going to reach the larger stretch goal value anyway. Changing it just gives something negative for people to talk about.
I'm not completely certain, but I have a feeling that the Kickstarter veterans like Mantic have a very good idea of what the final package will be assuming that they reach a certain amount. They just tailor the stretch goals to make it seem organic.
It's why fake SGs don't bother me either because it's all a wash in the end. I get why people get annoyed at it, but other people get annoyed when the SG's are too stretched out. Too often business is about manipulating peoples emotions and you're going to have opposite reactions to the same technique.
I'll call GW out when they don't respect their customers, and I'll do the same to Mantic.
Premium Plastic is horsecrap, and they know it and anyone who has dealt with their PVC knows it.
Fake stretch goals (we need 25,000 dollars to allow you to purchase these models we already release for 25 more dollars!?!?!?!OMG!) are patronising, but yeah, I see that it probably works all the same. Lots of sales tactics are patronising but also work.
Still, if the miniatures approach the looks of the painted masters we're being shown, I will be very happy. A great diversity of undead options being brought together here. Shame the trolls are all one pose, I suppose. I'd like to use them in my KOW army and all of them holding a rock up like that is a bit lame.
It's interesting - I think Mantic is being quite honest in making this a board game KS rather than a board game KS that's really just there to expand their wargame. I was expecting them to add poses at some point, but they seem content with the 1-pose situation for now.
BTW, I imagine the point where they reach 'season 2' (another racial dungeon) is the point where we can tell what will actually come in the box. I thin that all the freebies from 'season 1' will be exactly what comes in the box.
Yeah, I mean it is a boardgame first, being able to use the minis in my undead army is just a bonus. Given my track record over the past few years I don't know when I'll be getting a game in with them anyway, so the point is probably moot
I'm more keen in using the army minis in the dungeon, but won't say no to two-way compatibility ; ) I don't play KoW... yet... but have a bunch of KoW minis thanks to mantic crazy boxes.
1. Human, male Basilian Paladin w/ sword
2. Lizardman or Lizardperson for those ceaselessly whining about lack of a female miniatures. As if Dungeon Saga is the only source in the world for 28mm female fantasy miniatures
3. Satyr, male Force of Nature Shapeshifter w/staff
4. Human, female Basilian Sister w/ flail
5. Dwarf, male Engineer w/hammer
6. Halfling, female rogue
7. halfling? male fighter w/ 2 handed sword
8. Assassin, nothing is known if this is even a player character.
Sirio wrote: . Also, 20K for 1 plastic dwarf king that should've been in the starter box to start with? NO.
Why should the undead dwarf king have been in the starter box? The 'Dwarf King' in the game's title is a different Dwarf King, the one who sent the adventurers on the quest.
My bad, you are right. (20K for one plastic mini is still dumb imo)
Sirio wrote: Ghosts look OK. But 3 identical prepainted? And for a 25K stretch goal for what will be "premium" plastic? NO.
The ghosts are neither prepainted, nor premium plastic. They are probably identical, which I don't particularly like.
Your bad, their picture is crystal clear.
Riquende wrote: You know, it's fine to not like this, but making up stuff to complain about isn't cool, kids.
I didn't make it up on purpose, that's what I understood and it's obvious I got the first part wrong, just like you got the second. Are you making stuff up? I don't think that's the case...
And yes, I do not really like this and unlike some newcomers I feel I got screwed over the KoW campaign, I even found it hard selling=dumping my stuff on eBay. So although I like their idea on a HeroQuest duplicate I'll be a very hard judge on any other Mantic KS (including this). As I said before I had little doubt this would easily fund...
Yonan wrote: They're using it exactly for its purpose - to fund the startup costs of a product. They're hardly a behemoth.
I'd actually argue that in Kickstarter terms they are. Deadzone cleared well over a million, which is probably in the top 2% of Wargaming related kickstarters. It's a great tool for the upstarts who literally have no other way of funding their projects, and sometimes their dreams. I have a hard time believing that this is the only way that Mantic could fund such a project.
There is no such thing as "in Kickstarter terms" because there is no guideline saying that only small companies can use KS. You are taking your own idea of what KS is/should be and imposing it on this project.
Slightly weird agreeing with someone called Pox Apostle but hey ho!
I don't think people are aware just how hard it is to get funding as a small business at the moment. Getting a half a million quid off the bank is no easy feat, and even if you do, any delay to market, or any smaller than anticipated sales, and your company is gone, eaten by the debt, any assets sold off at 10p in the pound by the bank. It is a huge risk.
Getting money off kickstarter backers carries it's own risks and costs ofc, and a kickstartered project can still go to pieces, but knowing in advance the initial production/sales is huge, and KS backers are more forgiving of a slight delay than a bank.
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Sirio wrote: My bad, you are right. (20K for one plastic mini is still dumb imo)
Agreed on that, any stretch for optional things should be 5k max IMO. Even if that means 4 x 5k stretches rather than 1 x 20k stretch, it "feels" better.
Coloured plastic is their term for 'board game plastic'. It's not 'restic' (premium plastic) and it's not prepainted, a dye is mixed into the PVC to produce a non-grey figure.
Oh, and on the probably [u](if that's what you meant), it's not 'crystal clear' that it will be 3 identical miniatures. It's worth bearing in mind that there is currently one 3D printed prototype per troop type, so when we see an image it's just the same figure in triplicate. I do think it's very likely they will 3 of the same figure, but I haven't seen anything confirming it definitely will be.
I didn't make it up on purpose, that's what I understood and it's obvious I got the first part wrong, just like you got the second. Are you making stuff up? I don't think that's the case...
Coloured plastic is their term for 'board game plastic'. It's not 'restic' (premium plastic) and it's not prepainted, a dye is mixed into the PVC to produce a non-grey figure.
I didn't make it up on purpose, that's what I understood and it's obvious I got the first part wrong, just like you got the second. Are you making stuff up? I don't think that's the case...
Well, except I didn't get anything wrong.
Lol, those models look like three kids trying to sneak into an R rated movie
While I hate being the person to potentially stir up trouble this is worthy of note:
From the KS comments
Kickstarter Exclusives - Keldan and Gabrielle currently - are in addition to the boxed game. The Legendary Heroes of Dolgarth set are an optional add-on.
The Boxed Game at retail will have less Undead than you get on this Kickstarter. You will get 2 of each Undead enemy at retail rather than 3 We're giving you more basic Undead in the stretch goal than you'd get otherwise!
There will be further "expansion" goals if we can get far enough >>> I would also like a LOT more information about how this game plays because Dwarf King's Hold is a very bland game and this appears to be more or less the same.
There is going to be an Alpha set of the *Core Rules* that show you the basic mechanics of the game, the engine. You'll be able to play through the first couple of scenarios but it is by no means the full game. It's an opportunity to influence the core mechanics and, as we progress through the campaign and the course of the design process, you can work with us to make sure the elements you want in the game are featured in some way. We're very open to what gets included. Within reason
Rolt wrote: While I hate being the person to potentially stir up trouble this is worthy of note:
From the KS comments
Kickstarter Exclusives - Keldan and Gabrielle currently - are in addition to the boxed game. The Legendary Heroes of Dolgarth set are an optional add-on. The Boxed Game at retail will have less Undead than you get on this Kickstarter. You will get 2 of each Undead enemy at retail rather than 3 We're giving you more basic Undead in the stretch goal than you'd get otherwise!
There will be further "expansion" goals if we can get far enough >>> I would also like a LOT more information about how this game plays because Dwarf King's Hold is a very bland game and this appears to be more or less the same. There is going to be an Alpha set of the *Core Rules* that show you the basic mechanics of the game, the engine. You'll be able to play through the first couple of scenarios but it is by no means the full game. It's an opportunity to influence the core mechanics and, as we progress through the campaign and the course of the design process, you can work with us to make sure the elements you want in the game are featured in some way. We're very open to what gets included. Within reason
So not $100 at retail then?
I don't see anywhere in there that this is less than 100$ MRSP, they just say it will come with less stuff in it at retail. That being said, we all know that no one is paying 100$ for this at retail one way or the other with eBay and miniature market etc. around.
It does surprise me that there will be less models in the retail version. Its seems hard to play a game against a Necromancer who can only control 2 skeletons at a time. There is still a lot more of this to go, and they have yet to say whats really in the base game / what the base game is. I guess we'll just have to wait it out.
Rolt wrote: While I hate being the person to potentially stir up trouble this is worthy of note:
From the KS comments
Kickstarter Exclusives - Keldan and Gabrielle currently - are in addition to the boxed game. The Legendary Heroes of Dolgarth set are an optional add-on.
The Boxed Game at retail will have less Undead than you get on this Kickstarter. You will get 2 of each Undead enemy at retail rather than 3 We're giving you more basic Undead in the stretch goal than you'd get otherwise!
There will be further "expansion" goals if we can get far enough >>> I would also like a LOT more information about how this game plays because Dwarf King's Hold is a very bland game and this appears to be more or less the same.
There is going to be an Alpha set of the *Core Rules* that show you the basic mechanics of the game, the engine. You'll be able to play through the first couple of scenarios but it is by no means the full game. It's an opportunity to influence the core mechanics and, as we progress through the campaign and the course of the design process, you can work with us to make sure the elements you want in the game are featured in some way. We're very open to what gets included. Within reason
So not $100 at retail then?
I don't think that they want to tell people 'what will be at retail' because that avoids people saying 'I will wait for retail'. If none of these stretches are adding to the retail box and the retail box will be the default start-out components, that is a non-starter as a 100$ retail box. So if they told us what was in the retail, and the real cost of it, people might say 'eh... I will wait for retail'.
This is a strong difference from other KS which clearly outline what is retail box, what is add-ons and what is 'KS Swag'. You can always compare back to the retail box price for value, which right now leaves us comparing to other manufacturers because the retail release of this product is a question mark. If this is gonna be a 50$ retail game with 10$ add-ons, I can possibly wait until retail and not really miss much value and skip some of the trash sculpts I don't want. Allows me to see if the game is good and the minis end up serviceable for miniature gamers or not. By keeping that information hidden or ambiguous, they feed a 'Buy or die' frenzy which makes people either 'All In' or ''walk away'. That is a bad model IMHO and the frequent multi thousand dollar backslides I think confirm that.
The tactic of keeping people as confused as possible about every aspect seems to work for them and I guess they don't mind the blowback... so be it.
Your bad, their picture (for the Ghosts) is crystal clear.
Well, except I didn't get anything wrong.
I'm getting tired of this and I'm sure so are you. There are 3 identical minis there. If you say it's not, then OK... whatever.
Yes, that is picture of one miniature, photoshopped to appear 3 times. This is a likely indicator that there are 3 identical models. It is not proof of that.
Yeah, I got burned on some of the retail pricing for stuff on their Deadzone Kickstarter and their changing their minds on how they handled the plastic Forge Fathers. I know people got burned on the KoWKS. I think I'll sit this one out. No desperate need for me to get it. I can grab it retail should the mood strike.
Your bad, their picture (for the Ghosts) is crystal clear.
Well, except I didn't get anything wrong.
I'm getting tired of this and I'm sure so are you. There are 3 identical minis there. If you say it's not, then OK... whatever.
For the fullness of discussion, your initial claim was that they were 1) pre-painted, 2) restic ("premium plastic") and 3) identical. Riquende pointed out you were wrong on points 1 and 2, and you are. He said you were likely right on point 3, but lacking official confirmation it cannot be said you are definitively right.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, I got burned on some of the retail pricing for stuff on their Deadzone Kickstarter and their changing their minds on how they handled the plastic Forge Fathers. I know people got burned on the KoWKS. I think I'll sit this one out. No desperate need for me to get it. I can grab it retail should the mood strike.
This is starting to look like the 'smart play' here, if not also on most of Mantic's Kickstarters going forward.
Hulksmash wrote: Now full hard plastic Warpath models without integrated bases and I'll throw money at it and just hope for the best
Do the Deadzone plastic sprues have integrated bases? I thought a sprue pic was floating around, can't find it now though. That's probably the best indicator.
The Boxed Game at retail will have less Undead than you get on this Kickstarter. You will get 2 of each Undead enemy at retail rather than 3 We're giving you more basic Undead in the stretch goal than you'd get otherwise!
Add to this, a potential 2 zombie trolls and another villain (Zombie troll shaman)
So we're looking at 31 miniatures. It might be less because they say that they're giving more basic undead so maybe less skeletons and zombies or are they considering the ghosts, armoured zombies and dwarf revenants as "basic". I wouldn't consider them basic due to the comparative limited number.
This KS better keep going or this is going to look like a complete turd at $100MSRP with this limited content. I keep going back to Descent but that's the natural competition and I can buy the core set of v2 and 1 expansion for $100MSRP.
As a point of reference, v2 of Descent comes with the following:
Descent: Journeys in the Dark Second Edition includes:
A rulebook and quest guide
8 Hero figures and 38 Monster figures
9 custom dice
Nearly 250 cards
48 Map tiles
Over 150 tokens
Descent also has a vibrant online community with fan and company made quests and campaigns as well as alternative rules and well, a mature and established content base to build from.
In short, Mantic has their work cut-out for them if they wish to compete with FFG beyond the core group of Mantic fans at the price point this game currently sits at.
I think that by not showing a complete product at the $100MSRP level, Mantic will fail to draw-in the board-game crowd who know what they can easily get at that price point in terms of a final product and may just laugh and keep surfing instead of backing. Yes, there's already a large amount of backers and a large sum invested in this but Mantic's in real danger of reaching the limit of their fan base's support. If they don't expand the game's content to the $100MSPR price-level, they might very well lose backers later and fail to draw more. I foresee the Mars Attack kitchen sink treatment if a lull develops later in the campaign.
Descent is more than double that price in the UK, and Mantic is a UK company. The extremely weak dollar probably has something to do with the seemingly high price tag for the Kickstarter.
As has been covered before, folk in the UK (and I'm guessing most non-US places) can't even buy just Descent as cheaply as this is, let alone an expansion.
Though you'd able to play it a lot sooner!
I do think they've got their sums wrong at the start here though.
Mymearan wrote: Descent is more than double that price in the UK, and Mantic is a UK company. The extremely weak dollar probably has something to do with the seemingly high price tag for the Kickstarter.
Wouldn't a weak dollar mean a cheaper Descent in the UK as the pound would have more buying power?
I think I'll check Miniature Market's international shipping for giggles and see what it would take to ship it to the UK.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, I got burned on some of the retail pricing for stuff on their Deadzone Kickstarter and their changing their minds on how they handled the plastic Forge Fathers. I know people got burned on the KoWKS. I think I'll sit this one out. No desperate need for me to get it. I can grab it retail should the mood strike.
Don't remind me, After the disaster that was the enforcers faction, they won't be seeing a dime of my cash again. They weren't even that apologetic about it. Just acted as if giving us 5 garbage enforcer minis from warpath more than made up for it.
Your bad, their picture (for the Ghosts) is crystal clear.
Well, except I didn't get anything wrong.
I'm getting tired of this and I'm sure so are you. There are 3 identical minis there. If you say it's not, then OK... whatever.
For the fullness of discussion, your initial claim was that they were 1) pre-painted, 2) restic ("premium plastic") and 3) identical. Riquende pointed out you were wrong on points 1 and 2, and you are. He said you were likely right on point 3, but lacking official confirmation it cannot be said you are definitively right.
Yes, I admitted I was wrong about the pre-painted stuff, you don't want to admit that these will be 3 identical minis. And I'm sorry I didn't quote 25 lines again, I didn't find it necessary. (Stupid conversation here).
Bolognesus wrote: ? You're still getting the HIPS enforcers - these are just there to tide you over, for the time being...
With the assumption that I'll still care one year later? I had plenty of opportunities to buy the warpath models, in fact I did in order to play out some paint schemes for my enforcers. That doubled with things like the pathfinder model, which looked amazing in concept and then turned out to be what looks like a cultist on a unicycle just soured my experience of the whole thing.
Yes, I admitted I was wrong about the pre-painted stuff, you don't want to admit that these will be 3 identical minis. And I'm sorry I didn't quote 25 lines again, I didn't find it necessary. (Stupid conversation here).
What on earth are you babbling about? How can anyone admit that they will be 3 identical minis when that hasn't been confirmed anywhere? For some reason you have a weird problem with me saying you're probably right, and that I dislike it just like you.
I'm trying to agree with you, you want to turn it into an argument.
Mymearan wrote: Descent is more than double that price in the UK, and Mantic is a UK company. The extremely weak dollar probably has something to do with the seemingly high price tag for the Kickstarter.
Wouldn't a weak dollar mean a cheaper Descent in the UK as the pound would have more buying power?
/quote]
Sadly not, we usually get a UK pound price direct from US dollar price on a lot of things, if it is $60 for you it will probably be £60 over here. With the cost of international shipping and VAT I guess it is understandable. You also have to take into account that UK retailers may buy 6 months/ a year of stock at a time. If they did so when the dollar was stronger against the pound there is little to no chance that that will be passed onto the consumer, and understandably so. And the high postage cost/tax from abroad basically rules out the chance of buying games cheaper from other countries.
#edit: no idea how I have made my words into those of Agnosto.
edlowe wrote: Weird thought, How do the trolls fit down the single square corridors?
Actually the tiles look a little off to me, the artwork looks great but I think they need a border plus larger corridors.
Mantic trolls have tiny legs; they just turn sideways and sidle down the hall..
lol
Asked on the comments
@ Ed - they tend not to, which adds some interesting tactics to playing the heroes and the necromancer. Those very narrow corridors, the 1 square wide ones, might just be the heroes salvation - or doom them forever Still, you're going to have to come out at some point
Bottlenecks, outnumbering and defending your rear arc are very conscious tactical choices you'll need to negotiate with Dungeon Saga.
Coloured plastic is their term for 'board game plastic'. It's not 'restic' (premium plastic) and it's not prepainted, a dye is mixed into the PVC to produce a non-grey figure.
the thing people don't realize is that they have some of the master sculpted, sure, but in reality they have to pay for the tooling costs, which means stretch goals for those models.
Either I don't understand what you're trying to say, or you don't actually know what you're talking about.
However, we get him fantastically cheaper.
