Alpharius wrote: Yeah, WELL past time to move past that particular debate/argument, please!
Indeed. It's...nice? to have confirmation that they will be identical. Not answered in the way I would have preferred it, but at least it's a straight-forward "asked-and-answered" instead of puzzling through a round of "What is restic called this week and which variation are we talking about?"
At least in the scope of this project it makes some sense. It's fairly common for board games to have standard poses and that's it. Descent, for example, does it exactly the same way.
I'm not completely certain, but I have a feeling that the Kickstarter veterans like Mantic have a very good idea of what the final package will be assuming that they reach a certain amount. They just tailor the stretch goals to make it seem organic.
I agree with this and have the same opinion. They play with them to try and maximise their final take - Though sometimes it doesn't quite work out - see DBX and the Frenzy level that started as "get everything" and got changed later to "get a lot of stuff but please buy these add-ons as well".
It's why fake SGs don't bother me either because it's all a wash in the end. I get why people get annoyed at it, but other people get annoyed when the SG's are too stretched out. Too often business is about manipulating peoples emotions and you're going to have opposite reactions to the same technique.
I have to say that I prefer the way that CMON do it (never thought I'd say that!) with their base boxes as well as the other examples of boxed boardgames that didn't play the fake-stretch-goal game.
Yonan wrote: I'm more keen in using the army minis in the dungeon, but won't say no to two-way compatibility ; ) I don't play KoW... yet... but have a bunch of KoW minis thanks to mantic crazy boxes.
You should definitely give it a go. It's completely revitalised Fantasy Battles for me, which I lost interest in as successive editions of Herohammer Fantasy Battle killed my interest.
I'm still on the fence of this given Mantic is being cryptic and being burned on the quality of some of their other KS. I think they are counting on there being a lot of SG and that people will jump on having multiple minis. They say this is a board game and not about the miniatures but they are selling it like a miniatures game. Maybe I'll be suckered in late game but since there is only one tier I don't have to worry about it vanishing at least.
lord marcus wrote: 1. It's not a greatsword, it's a long sword. long swords are 1 handed, greatswords are 2 handed.
I own real, steel examples of both types.
Wikipedia must be wrong and therefore needs to be updated as they disagree with your assessment.
Spoiler:
Longsword and bastard sword
These days, the term longsword most frequently refers to a late Medieval and Renaissance weapon designed for use with two hands. The German langes Schwert ("long sword") in 15th-century manuals did not necessarily denote a type of weapon, but the technique of fencing with both hands at the hilt.
Great sword
These include the long swords in both the Middle Ages and Renaissance, like the "outsized specimens" - between 90 cm and 120 cm - such as the Oakeshott type XIIa or Oakeshott type XIIIa. These swords can be wielded with either one hand or with two hands, but their grip may be designed specifically for one hand, two hands, or the “hand-and-half” grip where the off-hand grips the pommel, depending on the preference of the wielder. The Scottish name Claymore (Gaelic claidheamh mor, lit. "great sword") can refer to either the longsword with a distinctive two-handed grip, or the basket-hilted sword[citation needed] developing from a rapier.
The basket-hilted sword was a military sword, termed "broad" in contrast with the smallsword.[citation needed]
So we thus have "broadsword" terms that have these meanings:
Claymore
Basket-hilted sword
A sabre.
It must be noted that the term broadsword was never used historically to describe the one-handed arming sword. The arming sword was wrongly labelled a broadsword by antiquarians as the medieval swords were similar in blade width to the military swords of the day (that were also sometimes labeled as broadswords) and broader than the dueling swords and ceremonial dress swords.
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, WELL past time to move past that particular debate/argument, please!
Indeed. It's...nice? to have confirmation that they will be identical. Not answered in the way I would have preferred it, but at least it's a straight-forward "asked-and-answered" instead of puzzling through a round of "What is restic called this week and which variation are we talking about?".
Worth mentioning that Mars Attacks had 10 unique sculpts per 10 martians or soldiers. Would have been nice to get some more unique sculpts in there, 3 copies of 2 different zombie sculpts isn't quite enough, will probably ditch them and use KoW zombies instead (who doesn't have a pile of those?).
sukura636 wrote: Create graphics form copy pasting last one. Forget to change price. Honest mistake. Can we move on?
Do you not understand the implications? The contempt Mantic has for their loyalists is the issue. They are playing the role of the hotel owner from the old Rothschild/eggs joke, which is far from flattering to the company. Predatory price inflation is funny because it is awful, not endearing.
Yes, I admitted I was wrong about the pre-painted stuff, you don't want to admit that these will be 3 identical minis. And I'm sorry I didn't quote 25 lines again, I didn't find it necessary. (Stupid conversation here).
What on earth are you babbling about? How can anyone admit that they will be 3 identical minis when that hasn't been confirmed anywhere? For some reason you have a weird problem with me saying you're probably right, and that I dislike it just like you.
I'm trying to agree with you, you want to turn it into an argument.
It's a boardgame, not a GW starter box. Each monster type will be identical figures - especially since there's only going to be two of each included. It's how boardgames work. And yeah, 2 of each figure is awful. The D&D boardgames (Ravenloft, Ashadalon, etc) have 42 figures in each, which includes the really large ones like the Red Dragon/Dracolich/Flesh Golem, etc. The competition in this space isn't just Descent...
Spoiler:
edit - fixed messed up tags
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Riquende wrote: Okay, I am now willing to admit that for any given '3 model' stretch goal, the 3 models will be identical:
So when I said they will probably be identical, turns out I was right. Anyway, this is annoying, for KoW crossover purposes.
Boardgame PVC is soft as anything. It'd be trivial to cut and reposition the limbs. Besides, with 3 of the skeletons it won't matter, so it'd only be on the few larger models like the undead trolls that there would be any point. Cut, pin, glue, add a shoulder pad to hide the join. Easy Peasy.
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sukura636 wrote: Create graphics form copy pasting last one. Forget to change price. Honest mistake. Can we move on?
Type rather.
Because these things aren't pre-planned in advance and are instead just made up on the spot? Please.
They're not stupid. I'm sure they have several internal "roadmaps" with varying amount/costs for the stretch goals and they chose the wrong graphics to send out twice - either based on the campaign not doing as well, or doing better than their projections.
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lord marcus wrote: the thing people don't realize is that they have some of the master sculpted, sure, but in reality they have to pay for the tooling costs, which means stretch goals for those models.
They are not fake goal.
They're selling an incomplete game for $100. These goals are as fake as a three-dollar bill. The only (likely) part of that equation that's truth is that the game will cost, say, 250k to produce and the $50k goal is also as fake as a three-dollar bill - lowballed in order to meet the funding target ASAP and end up on the KS home page's "hottest hits" or whatever it's called as a project that's met 300% or 500% of it's funding goal.
I'm not completely certain, but I have a feeling that the Kickstarter veterans like Mantic have a very good idea of what the final package will be assuming that they reach a certain amount. They just tailor the stretch goals to make it seem organic.
I agree with this and have the same opinion. They play with them to try and maximise their final take - Though sometimes it doesn't quite work out - see DBX and the Frenzy level that started as "get everything" and got changed later to "get a lot of stuff but please buy these add-ons as well".
Spoiler:
It's why fake SGs don't bother me either because it's all a wash in the end. I get why people get annoyed at it, but other people get annoyed when the SG's are too stretched out. Too often business is about manipulating peoples emotions and you're going to have opposite reactions to the same technique.
I have to say that I prefer the way that CMON do it (never thought I'd say that!) with their base boxes as well as the other examples of boxed boardgames that didn't play the fake-stretch-goal game.
I definitely agree. I've passed on a number of kickstarters at their start because I didn't feel the value was there and once I did think the value was there I didn't back it because I was annoyed that I would have to pay an additional $30 due to passing up an early bird because they weren't more up front about what they were offering to begin with. However, since early birds are non-binding and fake stretch goals have increased in frequency I've started to take a different tact. If something even remotely interests me I bid an early bird and sit on it until the last few days when I make my decision. Aside from looking at the figures every day or so to fulfill my miniature fix, I don't read any of the communications or pay attention to how much money has been raised. If I'm right and there's already a predetermined maximum package, everything else is just the path to that end. Therefore the path is meaningless and only serves to present things that might annoy me (fake stretch goals, people complaining about paid add-ons, etc.) so I just don't bother with it.
1. It's not a greatsword, it's a long sword. long swords are 1 handed, greatswords are 2 handed.
I own real, steel examples of both types.
Seriously though. The model looks great, although I think even as a long sword its a bit derpy looking. To broad imho.
A very curious fantasy pastiche of a sword. I'd say the blade bears more resemblance to a gladius or Celtic leaf blade than any medieval sword, but the hilt is unquestionably a hand a half at the least.
It definitely fits the model though- that is one stout human! He looks like he'd fill a hall all on his own.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, I got burned on some of the retail pricing for stuff on their Deadzone Kickstarter and their changing their minds on how they handled the plastic Forge Fathers. I know people got burned on the KoWKS. I think I'll sit this one out. No desperate need for me to get it. I can grab it retail should the mood strike.
This is starting to look like the 'smart play' here, if not also on most of Mantic's Kickstarters going forward.
I remember this, actually Hulksmash stated that retail was cheaper than KS, which then was carried by everyone as fact, and even Alpharius echoed it. That almost caused me to cancel my survey, until I did the math and the KS prices were demonstrably cheaper than Mantic at retail from online discounters... around here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6510/502957.page#6726517 and I was quite glad I did do the math as it saved me a TON of money by buying through the KS survey versus waiting for retail. Like, hundreds of dollars, because of the amount of stuff I got.
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agnosto wrote: I keep going back to Descent but that's the natural competition
Descent is also not fun. It's stuck in a weird hybrid of a beer and pretzels dungeon crawler and a tactical wargame, like 4th edition D&D.
For myself, Descent is a known variable. It sure is pretty, but it sure isn't fun. Descent could be eighteen cents but just because someone offers you a bag of poop for eighteen cents doesn't mean you should buy it.
Dwarf King's Dungeon Hero Journey Saga or whatever this Mantic game is called is an unknown variable. They'll be releasing the alpha rules. If they are good then my $100 will be well spent! If they are bad, then my $100 will not be spent as I'll pull my pledge: We already got burned by Myth - which was effectively as boring and complicated as Descent but with cuter art.
Honestly, the original DKH is pretty damn fun.. played it last Monday and will be playing a 4-player game next Monday.
I can't see how they'd screw it up, only ways in which it could be improved.. the whole thing really feels like a beta version of the core mechanics later used in Dreadball and Deadzone, some scenarios are fun, others suck, the opposed dice rolling is handled a bit shonkily, but it is still really fun to play and has a great feel to it.
Elves are a bit OP in Green Menace, not for the shooting (which sucks), but for their larger numbers, higher movement and more action tokens, it is such a movement-based game that being able to rush around like pixies on crack presents a lot of opportunities for a wily player to win. Sacrificing an elf to create a bottleneck/speedbump is also a powerful tactic.
Descent is also not fun. It's stuck in a weird hybrid of a beer and pretzels dungeon crawler and a tactical wargame, like 4th edition D&D.
For myself, Descent is a known variable. It sure is pretty, but it sure isn't fun. Descent could be eighteen cents but just because someone offers you a bag of poop for eighteen cents doesn't mean you should buy it.
Dwarf King's Dungeon Hero Journey Saga or whatever this Mantic game is called is an unknown variable. They'll be releasing the alpha rules. If they are good then my $100 will be well spent! If they are bad, then my $100 will not be spent as I'll pull my pledge: We already got burned by Myth - which was effectively as boring and complicated as Descent but with cuter art.
What can I say other than YMMV. My group and I like 2nd edition Descent very much; it has depth, the missions are shorter than 1st edition and play much faster. I'll keep an eye on this because I love a good dungeon crawl but there doesn't seem to be any depth right now though Jake has some very VERY interesting plans for the rules (necromancer solo with AI heroes? yes, please.) The cards have me a bit concerned because the hero cards only have 3 stats, that's zero depth; it's a tightrope to walk between complexity and beer and pretzels but I need a bit more to the character than 3 stats or I just won't care about playing him/her.
You don't need loads of stats to make a character, back in my day, all we had was Skill/Stamina/Luck or Combat Skill/Endurance for our adventuring.
There will probably be some interesting special rules, skills, items and hopefully pets to spice things up besides the three stats.
I'm hoping for beer and pretzels personally, it has become a huge priority with so many people I know falling into the "maybe a bit interested in board games" category, I need something in a similar vein to Loka, out of the box and playing with less than 1 minute spent on talking about how the rules work.
Mars Attacks is a wonderful set of rules. Deadzone, but no-nonsense. Opposed dice rolling is roll dice, you win, they die, with very very little in the way of modifiers to remember.
Yeah, I got the coop campaign kit for D2E, and it's great. Owners typically get stuck playing the DM, so it's almost like playing a completely different game.
I'm looking at the various KoW sets and they're good to great prices for hobby miniatures. Mantic's gonna get my money regardless!
My group and I are in the "D&D lite" category. We want something with enough depth to keep a campaign interesting but rules-lite enough that we can enjoy each other's company and just laugh.
Descent 2E is really close to that; we wound up changing a few things to make it more to our liking but we continue to look for something different and closer to our style.
I wonder how far this is going to stretch out, I think if backers don't start dropping out due to the lower value of the box it's going to go really high, although after the initial rush there will be an inevitable stall like all Mantic Ks's. Or so I think.
(As for the other "argument", I find it stupid to continue, yeah, you were right, you nailed it, very good for you *walks away smiling*, maybe a mod can simply erase all of it too for the sake of this KS)
It'll stall at some point, then Mantic will throw in some free goodies that more than make up for early weak stretch goals. We've all seen it enough times to understand that there will be a solid value proposition by the end.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, I got burned on some of the retail pricing for stuff on their Deadzone Kickstarter and their changing their minds on how they handled the plastic Forge Fathers. I know people got burned on the KoWKS. I think I'll sit this one out. No desperate need for me to get it. I can grab it retail should the mood strike.
This is starting to look like the 'smart play' here, if not also on most of Mantic's Kickstarters going forward.
I remember this, actually Hulksmash stated that retail was cheaper than KS, which then was carried by everyone as fact, and even Alpharius echoed it. That almost caused me to cancel my survey, until I did the math and the KS prices were demonstrably cheaper than Mantic at retail from online discounters... around here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6510/502957.page#6726517 and I was quite glad I did do the math as it saved me a TON of money by buying through the KS survey versus waiting for retail. Like, hundreds of dollars, because of the amount of stuff I got.
Yep if you buy the sweet spots, like the BOGOFs and what not there are substantial savings with Mantic kickstarters - so far. If you buy the inefficient things like individual characters it's better to wait until retail. Like you I buy big so get the savings.
These savings may not be present in this KS though, in which case I'll azazelx pull my pledge.
Yonan wrote: I'm more keen in using the army minis in the dungeon, but won't say no to two-way compatibility ; ) I don't play KoW... yet... but have a bunch of KoW minis thanks to mantic crazy boxes.
You should definitely give it a go. It's completely revitalised Fantasy Battles for me, which I lost interest in as successive editions of Herohammer Fantasy Battle killed my interest.
It is not to everyones taste... (Here is Chris's old cartoon, he now works for Mantic Though was sadly told to cut down the in jokes!)
Spoiler:
Personally I would recommend if you have an oddball collection of Fantasy models God of Battles (currently half price on the Wargames Foundry site), but if you have the numbers KoW is at least a quick game to play and decide whether or not you like!
tgmoore wrote: There is nothing unethical or even dishonest in gaming the KS system imo Azazelx.
Fair enough. But given that, I'm certainly willing to game them in return in any way possible. I do think it's borderline dishonest and certainly not upfront to not even have the actual box contents listed, and instead have a gimped box for an inflated price as "the game" initially.
Alpharius wrote: Now all we need is pretre and the circle will be complete! I still think waiting for retail is a smart play with Mantic due to overall quality concerns.
I'd love for that to not be true someday, but I suspect that IF that day ever gets here, they won't be on Kickstarter offing great deals anymore!
I'm going to sit on my pledge and not touch it (to add or subtract anything at all) until the end. Maybe even the PM. I think the $100 pledge will be worthwhile in the end, but the add-ons are certainly in "wait and see" territory. I'm certainly not ever paying for Mantic KS add-ons ever again with the sculpts unseen (or in Restic). - And that's where the retail prices are more likely to beat the KS prices anyway as opposed to the base box. I do think just 2 of each mob type is silly, though.
Yonan wrote: I'm more keen in using the army minis in the dungeon, but won't say no to two-way compatibility ; ) I don't play KoW... yet... but have a bunch of KoW minis thanks to mantic crazy boxes.
You should definitely give it a go. It's completely revitalised Fantasy Battles for me, which I lost interest in as successive editions of Herohammer Fantasy Battle killed my interest.
It is not to everyones taste... (Here is Chris's old cartoon, he now works for Mantic Though was sadly told to cut down the in jokes!)
Spoiler:
Personally I would recommend if you have an oddball collection of Fantasy models God of Battles (currently half price on the Wargames Foundry site), but if you have the numbers KoW is at least a quick game to play and decide whether or not you like!
There can definitely be a waithammer element to it, especially if you're playing with indecisive people, people who don't want their little armymans to die, and those afraid of getting attacked, but I'm hoping to train one of those people out of it and learn them to just fething go for it.
Still, KoW is free to download the rules and army lists for. I'm somewhat interested in looking at GoB and have been for awhile, but I need to get 80 quid worth of stuff I want from Foundry at one time to make it worthwhile with the postage and all, and frankly, that's a gakload of money to be looking for something I want when there are so many other things I really actually do want and need to save/wait for. (Saga, for example)
Azazelx wrote: I'm somewhat interested in looking at GoB and have been for awhile, but I need to get 80 quid worth of stuff I want from Foundry at one time to make it worthwhile with the postage and all, and frankly, that's a gakload of money to be looking for something I want when there are so many other things I really actually do want and need to save/wait for. (Saga, for example)
Which is a shame, as having just picked it up on the half price deal, my first read through makes me quite like it (alternate activation and control zones on units has the potential for an interesting puzzle).
Hulksmash wrote: Now full hard plastic Warpath models without integrated bases and I'll throw money at it and just hope for the best
Do the Deadzone plastic sprues have integrated bases? I thought a sprue pic was floating around, can't find it now though. That's probably the best indicator.
My Deadzone zombies just turned up and they don't have the integrated bases. The models look really nice, with plenty of detail.
Let's not get back into it. Large scale purchases are normally ok but I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to getting burned via the characters that I purchased. Also the individual starter set savings, if any existed, were neglible if you only wanted 1 faction. For KoW they had BOGOF for 3-man units (ogres) and then released those sets in units of 6 for the same cost as the BOGOF.
There is value in mass ordering admittedly. Also part of my issue was how they handled the plastic FF's in not allowing us to purchase just those instead of only sets that included them which went againts what they originally said which was everything on the first survey will be on the second.
Hulksmash wrote: Now full hard plastic Warpath models without integrated bases and I'll throw money at it and just hope for the best
Do the Deadzone plastic sprues have integrated bases? I thought a sprue pic was floating around, can't find it now though. That's probably the best indicator.
My Deadzone zombies just turned up and they don't have the integrated bases. The models look really nice, with plenty of detail.
Yep, saw that when I got home too. The zombies are actually pretty great and give me hope for Mantic plastic production going forward. And no integrated bases!!!!!! Almost makes me wish I'd gotten more than 85
Azazelx wrote: I'm somewhat interested in looking at GoB and have been for awhile, but I need to get 80 quid worth of stuff I want from Foundry at one time to make it worthwhile with the postage and all, and frankly, that's a gakload of money to be looking for something I want when there are so many other things I really actually do want and need to save/wait for. (Saga, for example)
Which is a shame, as having just picked it up on the half price deal, my first read through makes me quite like it (alternate activation and control zones on units has the potential for an interesting puzzle).
If it were a free download, etc, I'd definitely check it out, and if I liked it enough, I'd buy the book at some stage as well. But needing to spend 80 quid just to get the rules (or pay 6 quid postage for a 12 pound book...) - either just to have a look... Maybe in 2 weeks when I get my next pay if it's still on sale.
They're selling an incomplete game for $100. These goals are as fake as a three-dollar bill. The only (likely) part of that equation that's truth is that the game will cost, say, 250k to produce and the $50k goal is also as fake as a three-dollar bill - lowballed in order to meet the funding target ASAP and end up on the KS home page's "hottest hits" or whatever it's called as a project that's met 300% or 500% of it's funding goal.
Or they just have that as a base game (what they'd release with 100% funding) and are genuinely adding stuff as the funding level allows it. All of these extra items to require sculpting and tooling to be done. It's possible that they had to adjust the stretch values after looking at the maths again and realising they were off.
Perhaps, but the base game as it was presented to us initially isn't worth $100 in their wettest of dreams. Which is my point.
On the other hand, I don't believe for a moment that they had to look at the maths again in the last few days and change their plans. They're not stupid, they've got a history of "playing the game" in KS, and they've had months to work out their plans. They will have several variations on their assorted stretch goals and such, and are playing the game in a way that they believe will maximise their fundraising.
Azazelx wrote: Perhaps, but the base game as it was presented to us initially isn't worth $100 in their wettest of dreams. Which is my point.
On the other hand, I don't believe for a moment that they had to look at the maths again in the last few days and change their plans. They're not stupid, they've got a history of "playing the game" in KS, and they've had months to work out their plans. They will have several variations on their assorted stretch goals and such, and are playing the game in a way that they believe will maximise their fundraising.
I agree with the point made. Mantic knows what their "final" offering actually looks like and it is worth more than $100 at retail price. However, this hypothetical box would cost, let's say $350,000 to produce for the sake of argument. What Az is saying is that he'd prefer if Mantic put up the full offering that was worth the price on its face and set their project goal accordingly rather than having dribs and drabs to fill out the box just so they can set an artificially low funding goal and say "look! We funded in 4 minutes!" which is utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
It's all "part of the game" to make the process "fun" and while I understand that in the end it doesn't really make a huge difference it does seem like an asinine way to conduct business. It leaves their fans in the awkward position of saying "Oh, they'll fill it out later guys, don't worry!" which then prompts the valid question of "Why the hell didn't you just be up-front with it in the first place?" The slew of updates builds excitement, but I do have to question if that minor psychology trick for the early adopters offsets people who look at the campaign, see a terrible value proposition because it was cut-down to meet an artificial goal and then never return because they don't know of the Mantic Antics. Obviously that's practically impossible to really track/quantify, but I do have to wonder if they're leaving money on the table due to the "fake stretch goals" model.
I do keep hoping to see the "killer model" or gameplay mode that makes it worth spending the money now.
agnosto wrote: My group and I are in the "D&D lite" category. We want something with enough depth to keep a campaign interesting but rules-lite enough that we can enjoy each other's company and just laugh.
Descent 2E is really close to that; we wound up changing a few things to make it more to our liking but we continue to look for something different and closer to our style.
That was our favorite part about Warhammer Quest - the inbetween adventuring and rolling on all the crazy charts GW design team invented back in the day. Too bad the game itself isn't that great. Descent 2 is still just too tactical combat for most of us, but we also don't like D&D4 for the same reason.
Also part of my issue was how they handled the plastic FF's in not allowing us to purchase just those instead of only sets that included them which went againts what they originally said which was everything on the first survey will be on the second.
Actually, you could pick up FF sprues on the second survey. I grabbed a couple.
Also part of my issue was how they handled the plastic FF's in not allowing us to purchase just those instead of only sets that included them which went againts what they originally said which was everything on the first survey will be on the second.
Actually, you could pick up FF sprues on the second survey. I grabbed a couple.
Just curious but for how much per set? I sweat I looked over that thing 30 times looking for a way to get them seperate and they just weren't there. I even asked about it in the comments and they said the only way to get them was thru the starters or BOGOF. That makes me a sad panda Especially given how the plastic zombies and terrain turned out (excellent)
Azazelx wrote: Perhaps, but the base game as it was presented to us initially isn't worth $100 in their wettest of dreams. Which is my point.
On the other hand, I don't believe for a moment that they had to look at the maths again in the last few days and change their plans. They're not stupid, they've got a history of "playing the game" in KS, and they've had months to work out their plans. They will have several variations on their assorted stretch goals and such, and are playing the game in a way that they believe will maximise their fundraising.
I agree with the point made. Mantic knows what their "final" offering actually looks like and it is worth more than $100 at retail price. However, this hypothetical box would cost, let's say $350,000 to produce for the sake of argument. What Az is saying is that he'd prefer if Mantic put up the full offering that was worth the price on its face and set their project goal accordingly rather than having dribs and drabs to fill out the box just so they can set an artificially low funding goal and say "look! We funded in 4 minutes!" which is utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
I do keep hoping to see the "killer model" or gameplay mode that makes it worth spending the money now.
That's what Gates Of Antares tried and it failed by about $100k. This approach, whilst a bit "gamey" would still allow them to be successful, even if they need to launch with slightly less than expected. I do agree that as it sits, it's not worth the $100 asking price though. So it's a tricky one I don't know what the right balance is.
Also part of my issue was how they handled the plastic FF's in not allowing us to purchase just those instead of only sets that included them which went againts what they originally said which was everything on the first survey will be on the second.
Actually, you could pick up FF sprues on the second survey. I grabbed a couple.
Just curious but for how much per set? I sweat I looked over that thing 30 times looking for a way to get them seperate and they just weren't there. I even asked about it in the comments and they said the only way to get them was thru the starters or BOGOF. That makes me a sad panda Especially given how the plastic zombies and terrain turned out (excellent)
Off the top of my head, $10 each, same as peacekeeper enforcers. I just added a comment to my survey that if they were 10 or 15 each, add a couple and it was added to my tab. I did mention it to Ronnie at adepticon and he seemed puzzled. Said they should have been available separately.
Edit: I guess it's best not to ask if you can do it. Instead just say take my money. Dunno... Have to make sure they show up still.
Son of a *insert explenative*. I would have bought between 8 and 10 sprues of the dang things. I was considering building a terminator 40k army out of them.
Well at least I didn't miss them in the actual survey. But that pisses me off a little more honestly. Mostly because it's going to cost me twice that after retail likely to pick them up unless they price them at $20.
Hulksmash wrote: Let's not get back into it. Large scale purchases are normally ok but I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to getting burned via the characters that I purchased. Also the individual starter set savings, if any existed, were neglible if you only wanted 1 faction. For KoW they had BOGOF for 3-man units (ogres) and then released those sets in units of 6 for the same cost as the BOGOF.
And then when there were complaints, they added 3 ogres to each BOGO if you wanted. They also added an unpromised army set which added even more value. I don't love their execution (should have just added 3 to all ogre BOGOs without asking), but the value was there.
Azazelx wrote: Perhaps, but the base game as it was presented to us initially isn't worth $100 in their wettest of dreams. Which is my point.
On the other hand, I don't believe for a moment that they had to look at the maths again in the last few days and change their plans. They're not stupid, they've got a history of "playing the game" in KS, and they've had months to work out their plans. They will have several variations on their assorted stretch goals and such, and are playing the game in a way that they believe will maximise their fundraising.
I agree with the point made. Mantic knows what their "final" offering actually looks like and it is worth more than $100 at retail price. However, this hypothetical box would cost, let's say $350,000 to produce for the sake of argument. What Az is saying is that he'd prefer if Mantic put up the full offering that was worth the price on its face and set their project goal accordingly rather than having dribs and drabs to fill out the box just so they can set an artificially low funding goal and say "look! We funded in 4 minutes!" which is utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
I do keep hoping to see the "killer model" or gameplay mode that makes it worth spending the money now.
That's what Gates Of Antares tried and it failed by about $100k. This approach, whilst a bit "gamey" would still allow them to be successful, even if they need to launch with slightly less than expected. I do agree that as it sits, it's not worth the $100 asking price though. So it's a tricky one I don't know what the right balance is.
The comparisons to Zombies VS Bunnies has already begun where this was fake stretch goaled and not enough value out of the gate and then it collapsed under a wave of people feeling cheated. At this pace, if they add 3 models every 50k, it still won't be a 100$ worthy boxed set when they hit 1 million, especially since every other addition is not new sculpts. I don't see how they can say 'the value will be there' unless they begin 5k multi-figure goals.
nkelsch wrote: At this pace, if they add 3 models every 50k, it still won't be a 100$ worthy boxed set when they hit 1 million, especially since every other addition is not new sculpts. I don't see how they can say 'the value will be there' unless they begin 5k multi-figure goals.
Same thing happened to deadzone. Mantic twice, just for the hell of it, threw in a faction pack. I'm not sure what the equivalent to that would be, but I'm sure when the campaign stalls out, Mantic will throw in some goodies.
But Mantic's track record has shown that when things slow down, they start throwing things at backers to get them to stay.
Case in point- the tail end of Mars Attacks, throwing in free choice teams for DBE, giving extra Enforcers to DZ players to tide them over while we wait for the hard plastics....
If things start going too far south, I'm sure Mantic has some sort of contingency plan.
Those ARE schnazzy, and would be a nice addition even to other games.
Yeah, I agree, I might get two or three sets just to have cool wound tokens to use for even Kings of War or Hail Caesar/Black Powder.
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Hulksmash wrote: Son of a *insert explenative*. I would have bought between 8 and 10 sprues of the dang things. I was considering building a terminator 40k army out of them.
Well at least I didn't miss them in the actual survey. But that pisses me off a little more honestly. Mostly because it's going to cost me twice that after retail likely to pick them up unless they price them at $20.
Email them - they let me change my survey the other day for one additional thing. As long as it hasn't shipped yet they seem very happy with adding more stuff. Do it! Actually Kai on their Facebook page has been awesome, just message them directly on facebook and be like "I didn't know! Let me give you money!"
First week? Hell it hasn't even been 72 hrs and folks are getting awful antsy thinking they are going to get ripped off. This is especially ridiculous as no one has spent a red cent. You can cancel your pledge at the last second of the last day.
So my question, are other Kickstarter campaign threads on Dakka usually this negative?
tgmoore wrote: So my question, are other Kickstarter campaign threads on Dakka usually this negative?
Unless they're at a crazy deal level, then they're always fairly negative. All the big KS companies have extra negativity added, even if they reach crazy deal levels.
tgmoore wrote: First week? Hell it hasn't even been 72 hrs and folks are getting awful antsy thinking they are going to get ripped off. This is especially ridiculous as no one has spent a red cent. You can cancel your pledge at the last second of the last day.
So my question, are other Kickstarter campaign threads on Dakka usually this negative?
Yeah, yeah they are. Go check out the robotech KS thread if you want to really see some good stuff.
That being said, its good to get both sides of the story, and Mantic has its fair share of fans on Dakka (even some of these guys being negative). I have my money in right now, but some of these other guys bring up interesting points as well. Talking about the KS is half the fun!
If you read the posts on Dakka when Kickstarters of this nature just started they were almost universally positive and everyone was enamored with the discounts and the ability for new companies to enter into the market. However, as more Kickstarters have either failed to delivery the quality they promised, and almost never on time, I think people have started looking at these things with a more cautious/negative mindset.
The fact is Kickstarter comes with a lot of risk to the buyer. It's essentially a preorder for an unseen product that probably won't be shipped for a year. To make that risk more palatable people have rightly demanded a lot of potential value and as many detail about the finished product as possible (ie. sculpts of miniatures, alpha rules, etc).
tgmoore wrote: So my question, are other Kickstarter campaign threads on Dakka usually this negative?
Well, since DS is a boardgame, I can speak for BGG.
I've followed various miniatures boardgames and can say that DS and Dark Darker Darkest are the *only* two boardgames I've seen that had these complaints of the miniatures being put back into the box. With DDD, the designer discussed the game on BGG, and made the mistake of not warning us that some of the miniatures previewed were going to be SG's. Queen Games, the publisher of DDD, made a few other bad decisions (like offering a "free" Eurogame in an Ameritrash KS) which made things worse. With DS, not only was it obvious that we weren't shown the retail product, but that it wasn't a $100 value. With pretty much every other boardgame, backers started with the base set. By not showing the backers the base set or its MSRP (even though, by the end of the campaign, this doesn't really matter), Mantic introduces uncertainty, so backers have less information to make a judgement about value.
What else... while Myth showed us the base game, its $100 level of the base game and an exclusive figure did not have value until the stretch goals piled up.
So... DS has the front like DDD and is promising the tail of Myth. 25 days to go!
So... DS has the front like DDD and is promising the tail of Myth. 25 days to go!
Haaaaaaaaa. If you think anyone can 'promise' a myth tail, you are insane. This one will be lucky to not suffer the almost fatal bleeding of Mars Attacks.
Also part of my issue was how they handled the plastic FF's in not allowing us to purchase just those instead of only sets that included them which went againts what they originally said which was everything on the first survey will be on the second.
Actually, you could pick up FF sprues on the second survey. I grabbed a couple.
Just curious but for how much per set? I sweat I looked over that thing 30 times looking for a way to get them seperate and they just weren't there. I even asked about it in the comments and they said the only way to get them was thru the starters or BOGOF. That makes me a sad panda Especially given how the plastic zombies and terrain turned out (excellent)
I emailed Stewart and bought sprues of FF for $10 each. Retail discounts will probably match that, so I didn't go nuts.
Also part of my issue was how they handled the plastic FF's in not allowing us to purchase just those instead of only sets that included them which went againts what they originally said which was everything on the first survey will be on the second.
Actually, you could pick up FF sprues on the second survey. I grabbed a couple.
Just curious but for how much per set? I sweat I looked over that thing 30 times looking for a way to get them seperate and they just weren't there. I even asked about it in the comments and they said the only way to get them was thru the starters or BOGOF. That makes me a sad panda Especially given how the plastic zombies and terrain turned out (excellent)
I emailed Stewart and bought sprues of FF for $10 each. Retail discounts will probably match that, so I didn't go nuts.
probably too late now but I would have gone in for another 5. I did ask in the comments but got shot down by other backers
nkelsch wrote: Haaaaaaaaa. If you think anyone can 'promise' a myth tail, you are insane. This one will be lucky to not suffer the almost fatal bleeding of Mars Attacks.
Not promising it at all.
Here's how MA did, for sake of completeness. MA started with the base game. Did MA throw mini's at us towards the end? I was turned off when it went add-on crazy with expansion content, and focused on the comic books, not the trading cards.
They had two pledge levelsthat were "sweet spots" and there were a ton of people camping on both to see which would be a better deal. People started deciding at the end and it caused a huge drop when they dropped the 2nd one.
Thanks! Further reason to go to a single pledge level maybe? Though I see the $1 pledge level has been added. The psychology behind KS is fascinating to me.
tgmoore wrote: Thanks! Further reason to go to a single pledge level maybe? Though I see the $1 pledge level has been added. The psychology behind KS is fascinating to me.
In mars attacks they had the 1$ pledge level as well. The second pledge level that caused all the craziness had "Credit" built into it (i believe it was $250 or so?) that you could spend on add-ons, so people got on it to see if they would save enough money that way, or just get the regular early bird and get just the add-ons they wanted. It... was not the best idea.
I pledged a dollar on the first day of this one (before it was a pledge level) just to get the updates. I don't have a fantasy dungeon crawl game and think one may be a good addition to the stable. Hoping to learn enough about this one and also see enough value that I am tempted to up my pledge instead of ditch it at the end.
We'll see. So far I have not been too tempted to go in at $100.
CptJake wrote: I pledged a dollar on the first day of this one (before it was a pledge level) just to get the updates. I don't have a fantasy dungeon crawl game and think one may be a good addition to the stable. Hoping to learn enough about this one and also see enough value that I am tempted to up my pledge instead of ditch it at the end.
We'll see. So far I have not been too tempted to go in at $100.
I don't think its a good deal yet either. But I'm gonna go ahead and have my 100$ in there to see if it becomes one. I think it will. Might as well add your money to the mix to see what happens. You can always pull your pledge.
I can't be sure I'll be available to pull my pledge because of some projects for work that may have me away at the end, so losing a buck doesn't hurt. It just ends up being best for me to add in if/when it seems right for me instead of add in now and risk getting stuck.
I think it should be worth the $100 unless they go down the route of $75 expansion sets with tiles a few figures and rules, then stretch goals to add into a paid addon. I've got a bad feeling this maybe the case. If I recall mars attacks did something similar?
squall018 wrote: They had two pledge levelsthat were "sweet spots" and there were a ton of people camping on both to see which would be a better deal. People started deciding at the end and it caused a huge drop when they dropped the 2nd one.
The other thing was they had like 5-6 stretch goals which were unlocked at about 5k a pop. And then they were sliding back multiple stretch goals, and when stretch goals were for add-ons and such which people already 'added on', re-unlocking them doesn't drive anything. So Mantic had to forgive all those stretch goals, include them and then make re-new stretch goals to get more money pledged to stem the bleeding. What was only a few thousand a day was really close to 10k+ a day as the totals went down by 5K and then a new goal or add-on was thrown out to cover it up before Kicktraq 'remembered' it and showed people the next morning the true 'bleed'.
It was probably the one time a KS got out of mantic's control and they have learned from it in regards to the deep discount EBs and the promoting multi-account speculative pledges.
The thing is, what worked 2 years ago, stopped working a year later. KS is constantly evolving and there is no correct formula. If you copy someone's format, you risk being crushed under the weight of it. MYTH has a lot of bad feelings around it and a lot of people saying 'I won't do that again'. So it is not necessarily a good thing to try to copy MYTH's model.
CptJake wrote: I can't be sure I'll be available to pull my pledge because of some projects for work that may have me away at the end, so losing a buck doesn't hurt. It just ends up being best for me to add in if/when it seems right for me instead of add in now and risk getting stuck.
Jake
Thats fair. During the Deadzone KS I was up in NYC for work and had to pull my pledge because I wasn't sure before I left and I wasn't going to have constant internet up there. So I get that.
The last few days of Mars Attacks also coincided with a protest over some Dreadball backers receiving some metal minis instead of plastic in their final shipment, and also importantly with the launch of the Alien v Predator game from Prodos on KS. Between the three things it was enough of a loss to start a mini panic run, which Mantic arrested by throwing in extras and changing stretch goals.
I don't think its a good deal yet either. But I'm gonna go ahead and have my 100$ in there to see if it becomes one. I think it will. Might as well add your money to the mix to see what happens. You can always pull your pledge.
And when people did for Mars Attacks, the people who tried to get people in via 'you can always pull your pledge' were having seizures of anger when people actually were pulling their pledge.
Speculative pledging to unlock goals only promotes backslides. We actually have seen an issue where people will pledge fake pledges simply to see what the next goal is only to pull it after announced.
If the value is not there, the best thing you can do is not pledge until it is.
I don't think its a good deal yet either. But I'm gonna go ahead and have my 100$ in there to see if it becomes one. I think it will. Might as well add your money to the mix to see what happens. You can always pull your pledge.
And when people did for Mars Attacks, the people who tried to get people in via 'you can always pull your pledge' were having seizures of anger when people actually were pulling their pledge.
Speculative pledging to unlock goals only promotes backslides. We actually have seen an issue where people will pledge fake pledges simply to see what the next goal is only to pull it after announced.
If the value is not there, the best thing you can do is not pledge until it is.
Thats fair, you guys are more than welcome to pledge how you wish. You will certainly not see "seizures of anger" from this guy over KS or anything else miniature related (unless you kill one of my necromunda gangers I really like!). I just think for people that want to pledge, but don't see the value yet, the best way to get value is to pledge so more stretch goals unlock.
It all depends on how you see KS though, I don't really see it as "getting value", I see it as a way to encourage development of products I might like.
I pledge sparingly, but it's always because I want something made and I think the creator in question can do it, not because I'm particularly fishing for value. Though of course it is a consideration.
Da Boss wrote: It all depends on how you see KS though, I don't really see it as "getting value", I see it as a way to encourage development of products I might like.
Da Boss wrote: It all depends on how you see KS though, I don't really see it as "getting value", I see it as a way to encourage development of products I might like.
I don't see them as being mutually exclusive.
They are not. In fact, he is finding 'value' in the encouragement development of products he likes.
nkelsch wrote: MYTH has a lot of bad feelings around it and a lot of people saying 'I won't do that again'. So it is not necessarily a good thing to try to copy MYTH's model.
I thought most of the MYTH bad feelings were over massive delays and poorly written/exampled rules? I haven't really paid attention though.
Not sure if going the way of Mars Attacks is a bad thing.
Mars Attacks made a ton of money and got such good press that it became Mantic's #1 selling game before it's release based on distributor orders alone. It's something like an initial print run of 50,000 copies, right? Dreadball's only into it's 30,000's after 18 months or so.
Hell, Mantic's going for a complete all in one boardgame solution like Mars Attacks was and this will definitely materialize and not be Spain-restricted like HeroQuest 25, I'm pretty certain they'll get 50,000 distributor preorders for this too.
Da Boss wrote: Good point. Can you see what I'm getting at though?
I do. And I've backed a few non-game related projects for similar reasons. I'm pretty much a What is in it for ME! type when it comes to the gaming projects though.
That'll happen if it's random dungeons, but pre-set dungeons can just avoid trolls in 1-wide corridors, which makes sense (the bigger trolls hang around in areas they can move more freely about).
decker_cky wrote: That'll happen if it's random dungeons, but pre-set dungeons can just avoid trolls in 1-wide corridors, which makes sense (the bigger trolls hang around in areas they can move more freely about).
Was what I was thinking also. And who didn't play DnD back in the day to find a freaking dragon in a room with only 1 entrance with a small door anyway? Maybe they got in there as small trolls and grew into bigger ones eating silly adventurers.
Or more simply they can get through the narrow corridors, but only with difficulty
in the way human cavers can squeeze through narrow passages you'd never allow an adventurer to use in a game on this time scale (they'd be really slow and sitting ducks if any combat happened)
DaveC wrote: So Beasts of War have the extended interview with Ronnie up -
First Expansion - Orcs and Goblins includes new tiles and rulebook and rules for the current KoW Orc and Goblin range
Second Expansion - Abyssal Dwarfs
Are these expansions planned as part of this Kickstarter? Or actual literal expansions down the line? - probably with additional KS campaigns. Often boardgames run an additional expansion as part of a KS (Zombicide, SDE, etc, but Mantic seems to run some of them as additional KS (DBX)
And thanks Krinsath - you get my point exactly. I don't for a moment think that the final offering won't be worth my $100 or that it will be a meager number of models, but that's because I'm now familiar with the way these guys run their campaigns.
Let's be real though - GoA had a wealth of other problems.
They'll be expansions, done as part of the existing kickstarter.
Dreadball Extreme was not really an Expansion - it is more like your Gorkamorka compared to your Necromunda. - A separate standalone game, with the same main mechanics but with its own twist on aspects of the rules.
The crossover part of it is like playing a game with your Ork gangs against a Necromunda one, except with official rules.
I suppose a good similarity would be the Deadzone expansions. - Incursion with multi table games, then the Zombie coop games with the next book. - Both of these were funded in the original kickstarter.
in the way human cavers can squeeze through narrow passages you'd never allow an adventurer to use in a game on this time scale (they'd be really slow and sitting ducks if any combat happened)
I almost prefer the solution of the big based figures can not use the one square corridors, though limits the actions of the enemy player.
a big base miniature, exceding a small board tile is something I'd rather avoid in my games
I would have preferred that all corridors are double square, and not to use so similar boards with the old Dwarf King Hold :(
Da Boss wrote: It all depends on how you see KS though, I don't really see it as "getting value", I see it as a way to encourage development of products I might like.
I pledge sparingly, but it's always because I want something made and I think the creator in question can do it, not because I'm particularly fishing for value. Though of course it is a consideration.
Without getting into the "what kickstarter is really meant for" bs, I see projects generally being in one of two streams. There's the big advanced pre-order type, like these or CMONs projects - which granted do need the money to actually produce the products as shown - but would otherwise probably be able to produce something, albeit it something less ambitious. and then there's the much smaller, garage-type projects that simply can't afford any freebies - or scant few. Stuff like RBG, Impact, etc.
Compel wrote: They'll be expansions, done as part of the existing kickstarter.
Thanks for the info - I guess there's our main two $50 add-ons, with associated stretch goals to fill them out properly.
judgedoug wrote: Not sure if going the way of Mars Attacks is a bad thing.
Mars Attacks made a ton of money and got such good press that it became Mantic's #1 selling game before it's release based on distributor orders alone. It's something like an initial print run of 50,000 copies, right? Dreadball's only into it's 30,000's after 18 months or so.
Hell, Mantic's going for a complete all in one boardgame solution like Mars Attacks was and this will definitely materialize and not be Spain-restricted like HeroQuest 25, I'm pretty certain they'll get 50,000 distributor preorders for this too.
We're talking about the KS campaign though - not the subsequent success.
I doubt it will do anywhere near MA numbers initially either. This is a generic fantasy product. Mars Attacks has a reasonably well-known licence attached, with an IP owner who is actively trying to re-promote the brand.... This certainly has a lot of potential, but that will only be on the back of re-orders and good sales. Not upfront orders of 50k based on the nerd-nostalgic value of 25-year-old HeroQuest.
edlowe wrote: Yep they've said the big based figures can't use the one square corridors (first thing I asked!)
lol, monsters locked in their lairs, unable to leave to beat the heros in corridors xD
I think a very poor solution to a flaw design :(
I'm having flashbacks to playing random Warhammer Quest dungeons where rolling a "1" for the wizard's power level would generate random monsters and a few bad rolls in a row and you were facing literally corridors and rooms full of dozens and dozens of orcs goblins spiders bats rats minotaurs oh dear god the pain
edlowe wrote: Yep they've said the big based figures can't use the one square corridors (first thing I asked!)
lol, monsters locked in their lairs, unable to leave to beat the heros in corridors xD
I think a very poor solution to a flaw design :(
I'm having flashbacks to playing random Warhammer Quest dungeons where rolling a "1" for the wizard's power level would generate random monsters and a few bad rolls in a row and you were facing literally corridors and rooms full of dozens and dozens of orcs goblins spiders bats rats minotaurs oh dear god the pain
the mitical "roll a 1 phase" of warhammer quest... moments of bad luck, turning the dungeons in a blood and guts festival for monsters. xD
DaveC wrote: So Beasts of War have the extended interview with Ronnie up -
First Expansion - Orcs and Goblins includes new tiles and rulebook and rules for the current KoW Orc and Goblin range
Second Expansion - Abyssal Dwarfs
Are these expansions planned as part of this Kickstarter? Or actual literal expansions down the line? - probably with additional KS campaigns. Often boardgames run an additional expansion as part of a KS (Zombicide, SDE, etc, but Mantic seems to run some of them as additional KS (DBX)
Hopefully they'll be part of this KS and the reason for the 1 year development is to have 2 or more waves due to 1 or more large expansions that will be done after the base game which will ship a lot earlier.
Zombie trolls having a hard time with one square corridors? Could be hilarious! I'm thinking cave troll in Moria antics!
On the subject of expansions, I think that the Mantica lore would benefit from one set in the Abyss - lots of lava and caves and a real Mount Doom vibe. Plus Mantic get to have a go with some Abyssal sculpts.
Two LOTR references in one post? Yeah, that's right, I did it...
Hopefully they'll be part of this KS and the reason for the 1 year development is to have 2 or more waves due to 1 or more large expansions that will be done after the base game which will ship a lot earlier.
Hopefully they'll be part of this KS and the reason for the 1 year development is to have 2 or more waves due to 1 or more large expansions that will be done after the base game which will ship a lot earlier.
That's something I'd certainly like to see...
Well to quote the Kickstarter itself:
The other challenge is delays from the manufacturer – something that has meant we’ve gone down to the wire on a number of occasions with sculpting deadlines and delivery to our warehouse. We’ve deliberately added a couple of extra months to our shipping date to cater for this, meaning we can work on checking the quality of everything that comes through.
Knowing Mantic they'll ship early, but it really looks like they've taken the KoW/Dreadball quality complaints to heart and padded the ship date with a few months in case they need models to be redone. So, good for them!
Perhaps the Mantic rallying cry will change from Mantic... almost! to Mantic... alright! haha.
Short goal, free character, new rules, new equipment and ability cards for her... not bad.
Mantic mentioned in the comments that double sided tiles will be something that will come up as an eventual stretch goal.
I'd love to see some outdoor terrain to fight the orcs in, or maybe some caves with lava flows and cave ins to fight the abyssals (dwarfs and maybe even the demon ones while we're at it).
That's very disappointing then. It would have been easy to keep the base sizes compatible with KoW, I don't see the point in making them bigger. Ah well. Perhaps the overall sculpts are bigger too.
Good to see the switch to small increments between goals.
Da Boss wrote: That's very disappointing then. It would have been easy to keep the base sizes compatible with KoW, I don't see the point in making them bigger. Ah well. Perhaps the overall sculpts are bigger too.
I'd like clarity on that, but it is a fairly minor issue I suppose. I asked a question in the KS comments, but they move so fast I'm not sure I'll be able to find the answer if it even gets answered!
Da Boss wrote: I'd like clarity on that, but it is a fairly minor issue I suppose. I asked a question in the KS comments, but they move so fast I'm not sure I'll be able to find the answer if it even gets answered!
looking at this pictures of heros without base, it seems that the bases could be remplaceable bases
Da Boss wrote: I'd like clarity on that, but it is a fairly minor issue I suppose. I asked a question in the KS comments, but they move so fast I'm not sure I'll be able to find the answer if it even gets answered!
I'm 99% sure I read that the dungeon textured bases are separate pieces. I'm going to bet that the $15 add on pack is gonna be fairly popular with undead KoW players.
I thought the textured bases are already on the models in the boxed game, but they are selling additional ones for KOW models if you want to base your existing models that way.
Unfortunately Guru those are all sculpts and prototypes. I think the integral dungeon cobblestone bases are damn cool. But I would prefer if everything matched KoW with the round plug bases that slot into 20mm and 25mm square bases.
There has been talk of a cobblestone base topper from Mantic to convert KoW type bases but that would require you using a hobby saw to remove the miniature from its moulded on plug base, then glueing it to the cobblestone base topper.
squall018 wrote: I thought the textured bases are already on the models in the boxed game, but they are selling additional ones for KOW models if you want to base your existing models that way.
What, oh that sucks. I thought the figures plugged into the base, like a peg into a hole.
squall018 wrote: I thought the textured bases are already on the models in the boxed game, but they are selling additional ones for KOW models if you want to base your existing models that way.
What, oh that sucks. I thought the figures plugged into the base, like a peg into a hole.
It might well they haven't said for certain how they go together and I can't see the 50mmx50mm bases and the troll all being one piece that's not practical for a mold plus Mortibris has that skeleton raising out of the base which is probably a plug in piece. What we do know is that they will be attached to the base in the box whether it's all one piece or glued in the factory. jake mentioned in the interview last night that several of the MA minis are more than 1 part but the factory assembles and glues them and the DS figures will be similar. All that said I wonder why they can't do a load of the bases separately rather than this resin topper idea.
Da Boss wrote: That's very disappointing then. It would have been easy to keep the base sizes compatible with KoW, I don't see the point in making them bigger. Ah well. Perhaps the overall sculpts are bigger too.
squall018 wrote: I thought the textured bases are already on the models in the boxed game, but they are selling additional ones for KOW models if you want to base your existing models that way.
What, oh that sucks. I thought the figures plugged into the base, like a peg into a hole.
It might well they haven't said for certain how they go together and I can't see the 50mmx50mm bases and the troll all being one piece that's not practical for a mold plus Mortibris has that skeleton raising out of the base which is probably a plug in piece. What we do know is that they will be attached to the base in the box whether it's all one piece or glued in the factory. jake mentioned in the interview last night that several of the MA minis are more than 1 part but the factory assembles and glues them and the DS figures will be similar. All that said I wonder why they can't do a load of the bases separately rather than this resin topper idea.
the marts attack miniature are similar to zombicide miniature
the marts attack I think the arms are multipart, but the base and body are all one
Mantic would have to clarify this point on Dungeon saga
Sooooooooo, these models don't have integral cobblestone bases? Can they please stop showing them as having them then?
When I see this... with colored plastic models, on cobblestone bases without that little circle in the middle, why should I assume that they will come with mantic-style base inset circles and plain bases? And if that was the case, then why are the bases the same color of the model if the bases would clearly be black if these were regular mantic-style?
Can someone confirm what is going on? They have portrayed these as integrated cobblestone bases from day 1. That sucks if they are not.
For the 25mm bases absolutely I can see them being integral but not for the 50mm bases I suspect they will be separate with a small plug under the foot that fits a small hole in the base so all hidden when glued (not the current disc inserts). The troll (or large mini) will be glued to it's base in the factory
"The Dungeon Saga miniatures are made in multiple pieces, but provided fully assembled (unless stated otherwise), and made from highly detailed coloured plastic."
tgmoore wrote: It has already been stated by Mantic that the cobblestone dungeon bases are integral. I am trying to find where it was said.
I looked as well. Pretty sure its not it the updates. I think they just stated it in the comments. They DID state it though. Now, they might not be tooled that way, but they will be that way in the box. I would assume that means glued at the factory if they are not molded that way.
Myles Hunt 2 days ago
Not sure if it's already been mentioned but is there any chance the cobblestone bases will be sold separately? For use with other miniatures you add in yourself
Creator Mantic Games 2 days ago
@ Myles - we're putting something together for this actually. A pack of resin Cobblestone base toppers that can be glued to blank plastic bases. A little modelling skill will be needed to remove the 15mm integrated circular disks from the Kings of War models, but should look great when you're done!
tgmoore wrote: Myles Hunt 2 days ago
Not sure if it's already been mentioned but is there any chance the cobblestone bases will be sold separately? For use with other miniatures you add in yourself
Creator Mantic Games 2 days ago
@ Myles - we're putting something together for this actually. A pack of resin Cobblestone base toppers that can be glued to blank plastic bases. A little modelling skill will be needed to remove the 15mm integrated circular disks from the Kings of War models, but should look great when you're done!
Ugh.
I wish they'd just do away with the 15mm aggravating integrated base.
tgmoore wrote: Myles Hunt 2 days ago
Not sure if it's already been mentioned but is there any chance the cobblestone bases will be sold separately? For use with other miniatures you add in yourself
Creator Mantic Games 2 days ago
@ Myles - we're putting something together for this actually. A pack of resin Cobblestone base toppers that can be glued to blank plastic bases. A little modelling skill will be needed to remove the 15mm integrated circular disks from the Kings of War models, but should look great when you're done!
Ugh.
I wish they'd just do away with the 15mm aggravating integrated base.
Well they can't retroactively removed the circle bases from pre-existing KoW minis.
So it sounds like 100% the stonework bases are part of the Dungeon Saga minis, period.
I think he means the same sized tiles, one thing they have been adamant about is the quality will be a lot higher on these tiles.
Also Guru may not be writing in his native tongue, so to speak, so there may be the odd error. I am trying to imagine having written all that in Spanish, but I doubt the country could cope with my butchery of the language.
the Dwarf King Hold are 25mm square tiles, and Dungeon Saga use same tiles & compatible tiles with DKH according ronnie
Wait, what? That is some flimsy construction paper-like material, if they're using the same tiles, value just went down on this set.
I think he means compatible, not the same.
endtransmission wrote: In some of the interviews they have talked about much thicker quality tiles, similar in print quality to the limited release Space Hulk or Descent.
endtransmission wrote: In some of the interviews they have talked about much thicker quality tiles, similar in print quality to the limited release Space Hulk or Descent.
How would they be compatible if one is much thicker than the other? Same width, possibly, compatible? Highly doubtful but I'll continue to lurk and make a decision to back or not towards the end.
judgedoug wrote: Same way various editions of Space Hulk tiles are compatible? It's do-able but looks like crap.
Umm... ick. I don't own DKH so it won't be an issue but earlier it was said that the tiles would be of similar thickness and quality as Descent's and they piqued my curiosity/interest.
judgedoug wrote: Same way various editions of Space Hulk tiles are compatible? It's do-able but looks like crap.
Umm... ick. I don't own DKH so it won't be an issue but earlier it was said that the tiles would be of similar thickness and quality as Descent's and they piqued my curiosity/interest.
Righto, so I guess the solution is don't mix and match the older crappy stuff with the newer D2E/SH3-style tiles
Are Descent tiles really as thick as Space Hulk 3E tiles? I have SH but not Descent, but I had the impression that Descent was closer to board game board thickness (eg, the dreadball board), rather than being extra thick like Space Hulk.
Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc. Wonder if they will be easy to de-base.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc.
I quite agree, I recently got turned onto clear acrylic bases via the Battlesystems Kickstarter (their demo figs were mounted on clear acrylic) and bought a giant pile of them.
the Dwarf King Hold are 25mm square tiles, and Dungeon Saga use same tiles & compatible tiles with DKH according ronnie
Wait, what? That is some flimsy construction paper-like material, if they're using the same tiles, value just went down on this set.
I think he means compatible, not the same.
exact compatible, sorry for my poor english
space hulk 1 edition and Ultramarine boardgames use the same tiles but different thickness tiles.
Dungeon Saga use same tiles (with diferente artwork and thickness) of DKH
Mantic: we're providing downloadable maps that you can print. Drawn on paper is also fine, whatever works for you. Also, if you've DKH tiles, they will also work as the tiles are the same shapes. All of the art is new however.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc. Wonder if they will be easy to de-base.
Thanks for the link, I too am partial to clear bases now. Can pick them up nice and cheap and they're great imo if you're playing on good terrain. All my deadzone armies will be based on them and I'll likely continue it with this game too.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc. Wonder if they will be easy to de-base.
Thanks for the link, I too am partial to clear bases now. Can pick them up nice and cheap and they're great imo if you're playing on good terrain. All my deadzone armies will be based on them and I'll likely continue it with this game too.
I've got clear bases for the original DKH run, I ordered them cut to size from an plastics company rather than a wargame company (postage was a bit steep though).
Did anyone else have time to read through the Alpha rules yet? I put my feedback up on the Mantic forum, but here are my intial thoughts if anyone around these parts would like to discuss the rules. I really want to like this game, but so far I have some concerns (the first point on my list below is by many degrees the largest one, and it also seems like the hardest one to tweak down the line when printing of tiles etc have started):
• Looking at the maps, it seems awfully cramped. Especially considering how you become more or less locked in combat when within the front arc of enemies, I don’t predict a lot of moving around happening. The heroes have quite high movement rates (8, or 6 for the dwarf), but I’m not sure they’ll be able to utilize that really. I’m also concerned that shooting and casting spells will easily become impossible because of the front arcs of enemies. In a game with an “attack of opportunity” type mechanic (which I like), I just think having more space available would open up a lot more tactical choices; I think I would have vastly preferred 2-square corridors and larger rooms (this would also have seemed to fit much, much better with those big troll bases). How everything looks so crowded is probably my biggest concern with the game at large.
• The attack versus armour mechanic is… interesting. That armour removes the lowest dice from your roll and then you compare dice in order from highest down seems like it might lead to some wonky results. I dunno, I’ll have to think about this one some more, it might be cool.
• The dwarf seems like it might be a bit overpowered, with its 5 dice and 4 armour (with the attack-armour mechanic as it is, I’m guessing that armour 4 will be quite significant, while armour 2 is not much of a deal really). Just comparing to the barbarian, I would have guessed that the dwarf would have better armour, while the barbie would have a slightly stronger attack. Given how cramped the maps are (see above), I’m not sure that having a movement of just 6 will be a very big drawback.
• I didn’t see it specified whether or not a model Breaking Away could follow that up with an action (eg. can you Break Away, and then cast a spell or shoot?). Since you’re getting hit with free attacks anyway, I think this should probably be allowed (if not it seems like a very bad choice to spend your entire turn on, as the monsters will probably just follow you when it’s their turn).
• I didn’t see it specified whether or not you’re allowed to move through a square occupied by a friendly model (ie. if a hero can move through another hero’s square, or a monster through another monster). Because of how crowded things might get, especially with those 1-square corridors, I definitely think this should be allowed; otherwise I could see it leading to a lot of situations where models are just stuck in place.
• Likewise, can you shoot through a square occupied by a friendly? Again, I think this should probably be allowed, or shooting might many times be impossible.
• Being at an attack penalty of -1 as soon you’ve gotten your first wound sounds a bit harsh. Given that heroes can take 5 wounds, going around with 1 or 2 seems like it should probably be the default in a game that’s tightly balanced to be as exciting as possible. I would probably skip the whole 'penalized when wounded' bit actually, in my opinion “death spiral” types of mechanics (ie. as you get wounded you also get weaker and more likely to get wounded again) usually don’t lead to fun results in game. In fact, I think the opposite type of mechanic is more fun; when things are looking really bad and you’re down to your last wound you get some kind of desperation bonus. Just thinking out loud here.
• I’m not sure I like the part with “In most scenarios the Heroes lose if one of them is crippled”, my worry being that it will lead to unheroic actions being the tactically most sound, with the fierce barbarian suddenly desperately needing to hide behind the wizard. When “all of them are crippled” sounds like it might be more fun (when the barbarian, dwarf and elf have all been slain, what little hope remains is left to the poor wizard with only 1 wound remaining… can he make it up those stairs and smash in that door?). Of course, this has the big drawback of opening up the possibility that a player sees his character killed off early, and then has to sit out the rest of the game. This is kind of a hard nut to crack I guess.
• It seems a bit excessive that you need to roll to break through all doors, it seems like it might lead to the occasional frustration when you fail a couple times in a row. I think it would be better if most doors could automatically be opened (it would still take an action), reserving the need to roll for those special scenario cases (like the end of that opening scenario). This point might not be a big deal if doors are very scarce; I’m thinking mostly in terms of larger scenarios with a lot of doors.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Base wise I really like clear plastic bases for DKH. Or any boardgame. Lets you see what counters you are standing on, doesn't affect look of board section etc. Wonder if they will be easy to de-base.
Thanks for the link, I too am partial to clear bases now. Can pick them up nice and cheap and they're great imo if you're playing on good terrain. All my deadzone armies will be based on them and I'll likely continue it with this game too.
Where are you getting clear bases from?
Think these are the right items, they sell a variety of thickness and width, also colours. Back-2-Basix, you might know of them. $10 for "25mm Diameter 3mm Thick x 100 pieces Clear". Or $36 for 400. The ebay AU link might need to be changed if it screws with you.
Baragash wrote: I've got clear bases for the original DKH run, I ordered them cut to size from an plastics company rather than a wargame company (postage was a bit steep though).
what type of glue did you use to stop it from misting?
Trodax wrote: Did anyone else have time to read through the Alpha rules yet? I put my feedback up on the Mantic forum, but here are my intial thoughts if anyone around these parts would like to discuss the rules. I really want to like this game, but so far I have some concerns (the first point on my list below is by many degrees the largest one, and it also seems like the hardest one to tweak down the line when printing of tiles etc have started):
Some of these aren't in the written rules yet, but were covered in the playthrough video, so it looks like there is still some clarifications to do... including how long are the range templates? They aren't included in the downloads
• Looking at the maps, it seems awfully cramped. Especially considering how you become more or less locked in combat when within the front arc of enemies, I don’t predict a lot of moving around happening. The heroes have quite high movement rates (8, or 6 for the dwarf), but I’m not sure they’ll be able to utilize that really. I’m also concerned that shooting and casting spells will easily become impossible because of the front arcs of enemies. In a game with an “attack of opportunity” type mechanic (which I like), I just think having more space available would open up a lot more tactical choices; I think I would have vastly preferred 2-square corridors and larger rooms (this would also have seemed to fit much, much better with those big troll bases). How everything looks so crowded is probably my biggest concern with the game at large.
I think the cramped nature of these initial scenarios is by design as not all dungeons are going to be wide open things. I think we'll see some advanced rules, or alternative characters that will have ways around the zone of control, opening up new opportunities and tactics. there's nothing stopping you using wider corridors and rooms later in your own scenarios
• The attack versus armour mechanic is… interesting. That armour removes the lowest dice from your roll and then you compare dice in order from highest down seems like it might lead to some wonky results. I dunno, I’ll have to think about this one some more, it might be cool.
Currently I'm not seeing a problem with this mechanic as you're effectively removing wound opportunities that the limited dice pool offers. For example, if the skeleton only has 2 dice to defend with, but has armour 4, suddenly a chunk of those extra attack dice the heroes have are likely to be ignored. The concern I have is with the scalable nature of the wounds/death mechanic on larger/harder creatures later on.
• The dwarf seems like it might be a bit overpowered, with its 5 dice and 4 armour (with the attack-armour mechanic as it is, I’m guessing that armour 4 will be quite significant, while armour 2 is not much of a deal really). Just comparing to the barbarian, I would have guessed that the dwarf would have better armour, while the barbie would have a slightly stronger attack. Given how cramped the maps are (see above), I’m not sure that having a movement of just 6 will be a very big drawback.
That one surprised me too. Even the special powers don't really balance things out. Sure the Barbarian can deal out lots of damage for a turn, but the Dwarf can block off parts of the board for a turn without worrying about damage. I can only assume that they start to deviate in the advanced profile
• I didn’t see it specified whether or not a model Breaking Away could follow that up with an action (eg. can you Break Away, and then cast a spell or shoot?). Since you’re getting hit with free attacks anyway, I think this should probably be allowed (if not it seems like a very bad choice to spend your entire turn on, as the monsters will probably just follow you when it’s their turn).
It is not in the written rules, but according to the video Breaking Away uses up all your actions for that turn as the heroes tried to break away and attack someone else instead, only to find they couldn't.
• I didn’t see it specified whether or not you’re allowed to move through a square occupied by a friendly model (ie. if a hero can move through another hero’s square, or a monster through another monster). Because of how crowded things might get, especially with those 1-square corridors, I definitely think this should be allowed; otherwise I could see it leading to a lot of situations where models are just stuck in place.
Page 6 of the rules says no model may move through another model.
• Likewise, can you shoot through a square occupied by a friendly? Again, I think this should probably be allowed, or shooting might many times be impossible.
Page 10 says that a shot is blocked if the line of sight crosses another model. However, if you can draw an unobstructed line from any part of your base to any part of the target's base, you're all good for a shot.
• I’m not sure I like the part with “In most scenarios the Heroes lose if one of them is crippled”, my worry being that it will lead to unheroic actions being the tactically most sound, with the fierce barbarian suddenly desperately needing to hide behind the wizard. When “all of them are crippled” sounds like it might be more fun (when the barbarian, dwarf and elf have all been slain, what little hope remains is left to the poor wizard with only 1 wound remaining… can he make it up those stairs and smash in that door?). Of course, this has the big drawback of opening up the possibility that a player sees his character killed off early, and then has to sit out the rest of the game. This is kind of a hard nut to crack I guess.
I wasn't overly keen on that bit either. I remember a number of WQ adventures where two people died, but the rest carried on to victory. This may be a scenario specific ruling and probably one that we will choose to ignore if it makes it into the final rules.
• It seems a bit excessive that you need to roll to break through all doors, it seems like it might lead to the occasional frustration when you fail a couple times in a row. I think it would be better if most doors could automatically be opened (it would still take an action), reserving the need to roll for those special scenario cases (like the end of that opening scenario). This point might not be a big deal if doors are very scarce; I’m thinking mostly in terms of larger scenarios with a lot of doors.
Doors in the examples seem to be dividers between specific sections of the dungeon, so you only reveal the next section once the door is kicked in. I would imagine that these are considered to be locked/blocked doors, with all other transitions between tiles being unlocked doors so you can freely pass between.
Baragash wrote: I've got clear bases for the original DKH run, I ordered them cut to size from an plastics company rather than a wargame company (postage was a bit steep though).
what type of glue did you use to stop it from misting?
I use Loctite super glue on mine and havn't had any issues with misting
Baragash wrote: I've got clear bases for the original DKH run, I ordered them cut to size from an plastics company rather than a wargame company (postage was a bit steep though).
what type of glue did you use to stop it from misting?
Blu-tacatm as I haven't decorated the integrated bases
I have been led to believe that Araldite or equivalent will dry clear which is what I was planning to use.
The narrowness of the corridors gives this game a "Space Hulk" like feel rather than a Warhammer Quest or D'n'D feel in my experience. Order of movement and exact positioning is a big part of the strategy.
However I agree not being able to move through other players in a multiplayer game is going to be a major source of irritation.
Trodax wrote: Did anyone else have time to read through the Alpha rules yet?
No, but after reading your thoughts below they are the same mechanics as DKH.
• Looking at the maps, it seems awfully cramped. Especially considering how you become more or less locked in combat when within the front arc of enemies, I don’t predict a lot of moving around happening. The heroes have quite high movement rates (8, or 6 for the dwarf), but I’m not sure they’ll be able to utilize that really. I’m also concerned that shooting and casting spells will easily become impossible because of the front arcs of enemies. In a game with an “attack of opportunity” type mechanic (which I like), I just think having more space available would open up a lot more tactical choices; I think I would have vastly preferred 2-square corridors and larger rooms (this would also have seemed to fit much, much better with those big troll bases). How everything looks so crowded is probably my biggest concern with the game at large.
In DKH this is a feature not a problem. Maps have multiple routes (so high speed models have a lot of options) and models with heavy duty shields can push other models back. It is more tactical play than swirling melee. It is a designer choice or feature leading to part of the attraction if you like that sort of game
• The attack versus armour mechanic is… interesting. That armour removes the lowest dice from your roll and then you compare dice in order from highest down seems like it might lead to some wonky results. I dunno, I’ll have to think about this one some more, it might be cool.
I like it, many don't though, they prefer the opposed successes method.
The wonky results are deliberate, meant to reflect some creatures ability to just crush (dust for skeletons?) others,especially if outnumbered.
• The dwarf seems like it might be a bit overpowered, with its 5 dice and 4 armour (with the attack-armour mechanic as it is, I’m guessing that armour 4 will be quite significant, while armour 2 is not much of a deal really). Just comparing to the barbarian, I would have guessed that the dwarf would have better armour, while the barbie would have a slightly stronger attack. Given how cramped the maps are (see above), I’m not sure that having a movement of just 6 will be a very big drawback.
In the original games mv 6 is a big problem in many of the scenarios. Means you tend to commit to only one route and have to bash through. The armour/dice is not actually that great an impact. Essentially only 5's and 6's can hurt him, but an outnumbered wounded dwarf is rolling 3 dice vs a couple of skellies rolling 2 each and those 6's might well hurt...
Wonder if at this point they should make the original DKH rules free for people to play.
I remember DKH feeling very much like Space Hulk minus bolters, where there were multiple choke points and areas I had to cover, and it was all about controlling avenues and not getting surrounded. It doesn't play like the D'n'D boardgame at all really.
It will be interesting to see how they branch out from these rules to make a campaign system though- the stats there are pretty crude, I can't imagine much granularity. That's not a bad thing for a fast playing board game, but I do wonder if the rules will be an issue for the campaign section.
endtransmission wrote: Page 6 of the rules says no model may move through another model.
Ugh, I hate that actually. I can see nothing but frustration come of such a restriction.
EDIT: I should add, I hate that given that the corridors are so narrow. If there was more space to move around it wouldn't be a problem.
endtransmission wrote: It is not in the written rules, but according to the video Breaking Away uses up all your actions for that turn as the heroes tried to break away and attack someone else instead, only to find they couldn't.
So that's even more restriction on movement then. Hit with a free attack and giving up your action for the turn makes me think you'd only ever resort to this when you had absolutely no other option. *shrug* I just think it would be more fun if it was less restrictive.
Da Boss wrote: The narrowness of the corridors gives this game a "Space Hulk" like feel rather than a Warhammer Quest or D'n'D feel in my experience. Order of movement and exact positioning is a big part of the strategy.
The_Real_Chris wrote: In DKH this is a feature not a problem. Maps have multiple routes (so high speed models have a lot of options) and models with heavy duty shields can push other models back. It is more tactical play than swirling melee. It is a designer choice or feature leading to part of the attraction if you like that sort of game.
Da Boss wrote: I remember DKH feeling very much like Space Hulk minus bolters, where there were multiple choke points and areas I had to cover, and it was all about controlling avenues and not getting surrounded. It doesn't play like the D'n'D boardgame at all really.
OK, it might just be a matter of taste and style then. For me personally, I really wanted to love Space Hulk, but I found the tightness of movement mostly frustrating in play. I guess one way of putting it would be that I disliked that it felt so strategic (it's really important what decisions you make initially, during setup; do I send the flamer guy down the corridor first or the bolter guy?), as opposed to tactical (on the fly decisions from turn to turn are what are most important; do I concentrate my fire on the genestealer coming from behind, or move up and shield my battle brothers flank?). Once you were committed, it felt like there wasn't much you could do. If that makes any sense. In contrast, I think it's hard to beat 4th edition D&D when it comes to exciting, interesting combat; it's dynamic, you always have places to move to get into a better position, several different actions are open to you, and choosing which one feels important (I have reservations with D&D 4th as an RPG because it's a little too focused on combat for my taste, but if you really want to get into some good old fighting I think it's hard to beat). People like different things I guess!
endtransmission wrote: Doors in the examples seem to be dividers between specific sections of the dungeon, so you only reveal the next section once the door is kicked in. I would imagine that these are considered to be locked/blocked doors, with all other transitions between tiles being unlocked doors so you can freely pass between.
Hmmm, if they are basically just dividers between levels I see even less need for requiring a roll, though; it seems kind of pointless (if the roll is hard and it takes me three rolls to get it down it'll just be frustrating, and if it's easy it might as well be automatic is my reasoning). I would really prefer if the need to roll was reserved for instances where it's exciting; where it's actually important if I get the door down this turn or next.
Trodax wrote: • The attack versus armour mechanic is… interesting. That armour removes the lowest dice from your roll and then you compare dice in order from highest down seems like it might lead to some wonky results. I dunno, I’ll have to think about this one some more, it might be cool.
Currently I'm not seeing a problem with this mechanic as you're effectively removing wound opportunities that the limited dice pool offers. For example, if the skeleton only has 2 dice to defend with, but has armour 4, suddenly a chunk of those extra attack dice the heroes have are likely to be ignored. The concern I have is with the scalable nature of the wounds/death mechanic on larger/harder creatures later on.
You're probably right there. My first gut feeling was that it might lead to some odd situations... like armour being useless against opponents with many dice... or something. But trying to think about it some more, I can't really figure out such a situation. It's probably fine.
One aspect I saw someone voice on the Mantic forum is that the useable range of armour in the game is quite narrow; armour 6 is impossible to hit so can't be used, armour 5 seems extremely tough, it's probably too much. So you're left fiddling around with armour 2, 3 and 4 basically (armour 1 means an automatic hit); it makes it a bit trickier to expand on the system and introduce magic armour and whatnot. Giving the barbarian magical armour with a +1 bonus I bet would work nicely, but the same item on the dwarf would most likely make him unstoppable.
I'm fine with the heroes' side of things needing more strategy - that's what makes it a good co-op game! A bit of a discussion and plan-forming before moving, otherwise you might be blocking off a crucial corridor.
I also think that 'breaking away' being punitive is crucial - it makes mobbing heroes with low-grade baddies an effective tactic, and it makes it vitally important that you protect your archer/wizard/other ranged types. If a zombie is locked in combat with your wizard, it will still be a better move to break him away and get him behind the dwarf than to stay where he is and get attacked anyway.
I do think that the dwarf is not sufficiently different from the barbarian though, and just seems to be better. I would have thought that 5 attack on the barbarian (which again couldn't be modified by wounds taken) would turn him into an effective 'DPS' type.
And I agree about the armour - I suspect that there might actually be slightly different rules for this in the 'advanced' version, as the range is just too narrow - if monsters die in one damaging hit, you need to be able to distinguish better between a zombie and a troll and a dragon. High armour values might not be as problematic as they seem though, with a combination of armour-piercing weapons and 'overkill' on dice reducing armour.
I just remembered one difference between the Dwarf and the barbarian that does separate them quite a lot. Fro some reason it's not on the Barbarian card, but inthe section on wounding... Barbarians ignore negative penalties for being wounded. So the Dwarf may have high armour and lots of attacks, but as soon as he starts taking wounds, he's going to get worse. The barbarian may not have much armour, but he'll stay just as active until he drops dead
And I agree about the armour - I suspect that there might actually be slightly different rules for this in the 'advanced' version, as the range is just too narrow - if monsters die in one damaging hit, you need to be able to distinguish better between a zombie and a troll and a dragon. High armour values might not be as problematic as they seem though, with a combination of armour-piercing weapons and 'overkill' on dice reducing armour.
Do note that in the rulebook the wound/damage table for the different creatures goes up to 5, so we could be seeing things like the Trolls needing 4 or more damage in one turn to kill them
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trodax wrote: One aspect I saw someone voice on the Mantic forum is that the useable range of armour in the game is quite narrow; armour 6 is impossible to hit so can't be used, armour 5 seems extremely tough, it's probably too much. So you're left fiddling around with armour 2, 3 and 4 basically (armour 1 means an automatic hit); it makes it a bit trickier to expand on the system and introduce magic armour and whatnot. Giving the barbarian magical armour with a +1 bonus I bet would work nicely, but the same item on the dwarf would most likely make him unstoppable.
Another thing that was in the video that I can't spot in the rulebook is that you can never go below 2 dice for defence (I assume attack too) and that if you are forced below 2, you start losing points of armour instead. So it looks like the way to beat the dwarf is just attrition, flank attacks and ganging up to score as many bonus dice as possible and force his defences down. I'd imagine the necromancer and troll shaman will get curses to fling around as well that will reduce armour
Why do people think you have to play with the strategy of a four year old when doing demo videos? The rules would still come up if you did a real game and people could actually get a sense of the balance.
From reading the alpha rules:
My sense is that it's still basically DKH and we found the heroes in that to be overpowered.
The new armored bad guys might make turtling by the Necromancer in 1 wide corridors a serious problem.
The elf should be able to shoot through models.
ecurtz wrote: Why do people think you have to play with the strategy of a four year old when doing demo videos? The rules would still come up if you did a real game and people could actually get a sense of the balance.
From reading the alpha rules:
My sense is that it's still basically DKH and we found the heroes in that to be overpowered.
The new armored bad guys might make turtling by the Necromancer in 1 wide corridors a serious problem.
The elf should be able to shoot through models.
The hero's did seem a bit overpowered to me as well. Although, I wasn't sure if the guy from Mantic was making it easier on them by not playing most of his necro cards. I think the potions helped making the hero's overpowered too. They shouldn't be able to throw potions or at least without a roll.
I just remembered one difference between the Dwarf and the barbarian that does separate them quite a lot. Fro some reason it's not on the Barbarian card, but inthe section on wounding... Barbarians ignore negative penalties for being wounded. So the Dwarf may have high armour and lots of attacks, but as soon as he starts taking wounds, he's going to get worse. The barbarian may not have much armour, but he'll stay just as active until he drops dead
That's true, but you can only ever go down by 1 die for being wounded (i.e. full health = total dice, 1-4 wounds = total dice -1). The Dwarf starts on 5, the Barbarian starts on 4! So the dwarf can only ever drop as low as the barbarian.
I suspect that the heroes are 'overpowered' in the tutorial scenarios, certainly - with that many hitpoints, and taking a maximum of 1 damage per turn, it takes a while to wear them down. I suspect that they will be rather less overpowered once you throw the more powerful monsters into the mix, in greater numbers, over larger dungeons!
At any rate, it's certainly different from Warhammer Quest, Descent I&II and their ilk, so should have a viable market niche. If you can play a scenario in a normal boardgame duration (60-90 mins), it will get played 10x more often!
agnosto wrote: TBH, I was hoping for bit more depth so that the heroes aren't throw-aways but characters you can develop over the course of a campaign.
From what they have been talking about, you'll be wanting the advanced rules book that will hopefully (funding allowing) include creating yor own characters and levelling up between adventures
agnosto wrote: TBH, I was hoping for bit more depth so that the heroes aren't throw-aways but characters you can develop over the course of a campaign.
From what they have been talking about, you'll be wanting the advanced rules book that will hopefully (funding allowing) include creating yor own characters and levelling up between adventures
Has anyone been able to print and play the scenarios? The tile PDF is larger than an 8.5"x11" / A4 sheet of paper. Let me know how you've printed it out!
re: Advanced rules:
"@ Jonathan - we will feature this in a future update. We'd like to do a pretty hefty upgrade though, which may be a goal
Well, it's either that, or 15K - 25K to reach the next mini.
<idle speculation>
Sorta looks like at 300K they've finally put the mini's back into the base game box? I hear there will be two of each minion instead of three, but, if Mars Attacks gives an idea of MSRP, the base game will be $75 MSRP, and $50 online. So you could buy two DS sets for the price of a $100 pledge level.
agnosto wrote: A $10k stretch goal to add game mechanics? Jake charges more than I thought...
It does seem a bit much but hey, more power to him!
Product cost for ~100 sets + shipping costs + Kickstarter costs + development costs means it probably isn't as far off as these types of posts seem to imply.
Product cost for ~100 sets + shipping costs + Kickstarter costs + development costs means it probably isn't as far off as these types of posts seem to imply.
Somehow I doubt it since they were planning on it being part of the final product anyway but that's just my cynicism talking.
Not even been going a week and this seems to be buzzing along nicely, it would still take fair bit more to get me to pledge though. Are we out of models with actual sculpts rather than just concept art now?
Not even been going a week and this seems to be buzzing along nicely, it would still take fair bit more to get me to pledge though. Are we out of models with actual sculpts rather than just concept art now?
Da Boss wrote: Undead versions of the heroes, is what we need
Zombvivor versions of the heroes? And $10 add-on 2 packs of living and zombified heroes based on pop culture references. Hmmm.. we could get Brian Blessed as King Richard from Blackadder I (including decapitated headless version), Blackadder himself, Baldrick and Percy. Melchett, since Stephen Fry is now a cultural Icon in the UK. Um.. Heath Ledger from that bad movie he did. Zombified Heath Ledger in bad taste perhaps? The entire Monty Python Crew if needed..
I don't want to double-up on game types, and so have been reluctant to get involved in this one. I've pledged a fair amount (something of a gamble) on Gamezone's Heroquest 25th anniversary edition, but this does seem very nice and I'm not entirely convinced about that other game actually ever arriving!
The hero and undead-type monsters look amazing for this, and liked the sound of Ronnie Renton's description for the game. Also, free P&P to the UK. Descisions, arrghh!
Ouch. Looks like there was some copyright stuff with the chick from Dr. Horrible. They took her out (for now) and gave us two new free heroes. Hopefully they're able to work with the studio to bring her back in. Also, Blaine for the fething win!!
I'm not sure how to feel about KS's with little to no tiers and basically are just the retail price but you get extras. Yes it is a good deal, but it seems more like a shop with a long wait than investing in a start up.
Ahtman wrote: I'm not sure how to feel about KS's with little to no tiers and basically are just the retail price but you get extras. Yes it is a good deal, but it seems more like a shop with a long wait than investing in a start up.
I hadn't quite thought of it like that, but now that you mention it, it does kind of feel like that.
I actually prefer that the pledge levels are so simple. They might add one or two really expensive ones for the folks with lots of disposable income who want to name a character or have themselves as a hero, etc.
But Mars Attacks had *30* pledge levels. That one was just silly complicated. I guess they want to try the other extreme now?
Seems the new big greenskin expansion will be mostly add on. From their new update:
...Kapoka heralds in the first expansion for the game, which has a working title of Dungeon Saga: The Warlord of Galahir. It will see new monsters, new Dungeon tiles, new scenarios, cards, counters and more, in a low-cost Optional Add-on that allows you to go beyond the Undead and play through an all-new adventure with your heroes!
However, we’re not done with The Dwarf King’s Quest boxed game yet and as the funding becomes available, there are some components that we would love to upgrade to plastic. There is also some new stuff that could become possible to add-in....
I'm not sure I would count a only having a $1 reach-around and MSRP as 'levels'; there would need to be more than "get or no get" options for there to actually constitute having levels I think. I agree that it can get to complicated, but this is to far the other way. In the end they are just using Kickstarter as more of a pre-order venue than as a small start up capitol raiser. It might be a fine distinction but, I think, an important one. As I said it is a good deal and I begrudge no one for pledging, but it also seems to circumvent the spirit of KS, making it more of a store front that a place for unknowns to get their projects out there.
I'm not sure I would count a only having a $1 reach-around and MSRP as 'levels'; there would need to be more than "get or no get" options for there to actually constitute having levels I think. I agree that it can get to complicated, but this is to far the other way. In the end they are just using Kickstarter as more of a pre-order venue than as a small start up capitol raiser. It might be a fine distinction but, I think, an important one. As I said it is a good deal and I begrudge no one for pledging, but it also seems to circumvent the spirit of KS, making it more of a store front that a place for unknowns to get their projects out there.
Wait, we went from "This feels like a store" to "This is a store" pretty quickly there. If it feels like it's a pre order, then then that's your thing, but that's a far cry from being one.
After MA, they wanted to keep things very simple for both the warehouse and the pledgers. So they're trying this version out. You get the core box, which gets better with stretch goals providing more funding. It's still Kickstarter; just with less pledge levels.
I'm not sure I would count a only having a $1 reach-around and MSRP as 'levels'; there would need to be more than "get or no get" options for there to actually constitute having levels I think. I agree that it can get to complicated, but this is to far the other way. In the end they are just using Kickstarter as more of a pre-order venue than as a small start up capitol raiser. It might be a fine distinction but, I think, an important one. As I said it is a good deal and I begrudge no one for pledging, but it also seems to circumvent the spirit of KS, making it more of a store front that a place for unknowns to get their projects out there.
Wait, we went from "This feels like a store" to "This is a store" pretty quickly there. If it feels like it's a pre order, then then that's your thing, but that's a far cry from being one.
After MA, they wanted to keep things very simple for both the warehouse and the pledgers. So they're trying this version out. You get the core box, which gets better with stretch goals providing more funding. It's still Kickstarter; just with less pledge levels.
And there have been a lot of Kickstarters where the sweet spot was so visible that they effectively only had that one pledge level.
Necros wrote: I like the driad.. probably one of the first tree man ever that didn't look dumb
I actually disagree. Well, somewhat. I think it looks good, but that the robe is redundant.
Ahtman - oh no, for feth's sake no. Not that old argument again. And in honesty, I don't see how having one pledge level makes it any more or less a pre-order than a start-up funding raiser than having eleven pledge levels. It just seems like it's going to be many times easier logistically.
Oh no I'm sorry, I was trying to ask about the special pledge levels for getting your own merc or martian/human hero created. I saw the dreadball ones got realized, but I've never heard about the other two kickstarters.
Heh, I can't believe they tried to do a homage figure of Felecia Day/Codex without contacting her first for the OK. Her, Will Wheaton, etc are at our level of the radar and involved in the tabletop hobby.
Riquende wrote:I am surprised there aren't a couple of 'design your own adventurer' high level pledges.
GrimDork wrote:They seemed to work for dreadball, did we ever hear about anything for the similar slots in deadzone or mars attacks?
Speaking from experience, they can be troublesome/stressful to do; but they can also produce some fantastic results.
If you're sitting on a pile of money, and want a custom Fantasy Adventurer designed by Heath Foley (and don't mind a scale difference), shoot me a PM. I had a backer's payment fail for the Create-a-Character of the previous Endless: Fantasy Tactics KS.
Azazelx wrote: Heh, I can't believe they tried to do a homage figure of Felecia Day/Codex without contacting her first for the OK. Her, Will Wheaton, etc are at our level of the radar and involved in the tabletop hobby.
I know, right?
Personally, you would have thought that Ronny would have been on the phone with them in the space of five minutes of discussing the concept. Would have been better all around, especially in light of her Dragon Age work AND her being in on the Tabletop game discussion online. I found it a little in bad taste by Mantic to not have done a little discussions first. Might have been a true riot to have the whole Guild crew in miniature, then we could have gone on to do a side party of the Axis of Evil.
In hindsight, I still wouldn't mind seeing some of that D and D cartoon party on in miniature. I completely forgot about it until our esteemed colleague posted the Real Dungeon Master up there.
I'd maybe even throw out some extra coin for a make your own party/ character team.
Funny thing is when I saw it, I assumed they had gotten permission, and wondered why there was no mention of "Codex" or "The Guild" in the character description. I guess we now know...
Azazelx wrote: Ahtman - oh no, for feth's sake no. Not that old argument again.
Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.
Azazelx wrote: And in honesty, I don't see how having one pledge level makes it any more or less a pre-order than a start-up funding raiser than having eleven pledge levels.
And I don't see how just having level at MSRP with some bonuses is any different than pre-ordering a video game and getting extras, except that they aren't pretending it is investor fund raising.
Azazelx wrote: It just seems like it's going to be many times easier logistically.
I have no doubt, but it still doesn't seem like investing in a company as much as it just pre-ordering from one that doesn't even really need Kickstarter.
Azazelx wrote: And in honesty, I don't see how having one pledge level makes it any more or less a pre-order than a start-up funding raiser than having eleven pledge levels.
And I don't see how just having level at MSRP with some bonuses is any different than pre-ordering a video game and getting extras, except that they aren't pretending it is investor fund raising.
You don't see how pre-ordering a video game that is 90% done it different to backing a tabletop game that is 20% done?
Azazelx wrote: Ahtman - oh no, for feth's sake no. Not that old argument again.
Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.
Azazelx wrote: And in honesty, I don't see how having one pledge level makes it any more or less a pre-order than a start-up funding raiser than having eleven pledge levels.
And I don't see how just having level at MSRP with some bonuses is any different than pre-ordering a video game and getting extras, except that they aren't pretending it is investor fund raising.
Azazelx wrote: It just seems like it's going to be many times easier logistically.
I have no doubt, but it still doesn't seem like investing in a company as much as it just pre-ordering from one that doesn't even really need Kickstarter.
Without getting into a huge back-and-forth with you on this, it comes down to a belief. You appear to believe that Mantic have the liquid assets to turn this into a retail game with all of the crap included. Fair enough. It's just that I do not believe that they have the liquid funds to do it. My comments and bitching about "fake stretch goals" are to do with them knowing that X, Y and Z will be included in the box, and also with them lowballing the funding amount in turn (when it will probably cost $200-300k for them to actually make this game, and they know it - not $50k).
I don't see where the parody element starts on the pic and character they showed. It just looked like (an unlicenced) Felecia Day/Codex with a slightly different name which I assumed was the name of the "real" codex (it's been a long time since I watched The Guild)...
Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.
Hey, didn't recognise you last time I was down at Mantics office Which team do you work in? I mean, I'm close with the Mantic guys, on the games design committee, am regularly down at the office and I know that Mantic didn't have the $1.2m liquid cash to develop the entire Deadzone range, or $560k to develop the entire Mars Attacks range. But hey, I'm sure that you're closer to the company and have access to more information than me right?
I can sympathize over the cleric thing. I mean it is pretty generic. Of course also it seems recognisable, but that can extend to many other products. The same sketch in different colours would probably have been alright, a different sketch in the same colours would probably have made everyone else think of it as well.
I am excited for this game. Let me say that right now; I am glad Mantic is making this, ecstatic that they are using crowdfunding to make it the best game it can be (trolls notwithstanding), and I look forward to playing it with my more patient friends and family.
I have no doubt that this game will be successful. It will obviously be around for years and years and years, which is a big problem for this campaign. I will probably be able to get a great deal from Miniature Market or FRP Games or even Amazon if I can wait--and as a multiple KS backer, I can wait. I already have a bunch of other games, Mantic games, that I haven't had time to play, so I see no reason to rush into this one. I'll probably still be working on my KoW and Deadzone minis by the time DS hits retail, and I will have only missed out on a few resin exclusives apparently. Mantic is almost a victim of their own success here.
Of course, this game doesn't exist in a vacuum. With upcoming kickstarters for Minion Games' plastic goblins, Bones CAV (another one to wait for retail on), Dungeon Crawler's 'Bonesiumish' cavalry, as well as upcoming retail blockbusters like Star Wars Armada, Dropzone fleet battles/plastics, Perry/Fireforge/Shieldwolf/Dreamforge/Kingdom Death plastics, etc., etc., Mantic just isn't fighting hard enough for my dollars. They have certainly won a prized spot on my future Amazon wishlist, but they aren't going to see money from me in a while unless they blow me away. And this KS has fallen far short of that. Besides the Stretch Goal and Stretch Goal Add On joy, there is the problem that the sculpts look decent, but not great. More skeletons and zombies? Mantic trolls? $25 for 4 Mantic-quality miniatures? Guess I better buckle the feth up for this beast. $100 is a great sweet spot pledge level, and probably the best idea Mantic's had in this kickstarter, but there needs to be some sweet to make it a sweet spot. And it just isn't there.
Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.
Hey, didn't recognise you last time I was down at Mantics office Which team do you work in? I mean, I'm close with the Mantic guys, on the games design committee, am regularly down at the office and I know that Mantic didn't have the $1.2m liquid cash to develop the entire Deadzone range, or $560k to develop the entire Mars Attacks range. But hey, I'm sure that you're closer to the company and have access to more information than me right?
Hey I think you missed the point as it went right passed you; you can sleep with all the guys at Mantic and it doesn't change anything about what is going on. I haven't even said anything bad about the company nor have I told anyone not to drop money on it. In fact I have even stated it was a good deal. They may not be the richest company, but neither are they a scrappy unknown trying to get their foot in the door either. You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out. They have found a business model that works for them front loading pre-orders to pay for the project through KS, and I don't begrudge them for finding a successful model, but neither will I delude myself that it is something else either.
Ahtman wrote: You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out..
And yet, you don't see them bringing out half a dozen full featured new gaming systems either. Do you think there could be a link?
Well if companies that don't really need Kickstarter would stop using it as a proxy storefront people would stop pointing it out.
Hey, didn't recognise you last time I was down at Mantics office Which team do you work in? I mean, I'm close with the Mantic guys, on the games design committee, am regularly down at the office and I know that Mantic didn't have the $1.2m liquid cash to develop the entire Deadzone range, or $560k to develop the entire Mars Attacks range. But hey, I'm sure that you're closer to the company and have access to more information than me right?
Hey I think you missed the point as it went right passed you; you can sleep with all the guys at Mantic and it doesn't change anything about what is going on. I haven't even said anything bad about the company nor have I told anyone not to drop money on it. In fact I have even stated it was a good deal. They may not be the richest company, but neither are they a scrappy unknown trying to get their foot in the door either. You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out. They have found a business model that works for them front loading pre-orders to pay for the project through KS, and I don't begrudge them for finding a successful model, but neither will I delude myself that it is something else either.
I'm pretty sure that you missed my point. You have no idea what goes on behind the doors at Mantic and are in no position to make a statement on whether they can and can't afford to make. By all means, give us your (uninformed) opinion, but don't claim that what you say is fact.
Daedleh wrote: I'm pretty sure that you missed my point. You have no idea what goes on behind the doors at Mantic and are in no position to make a statement on whether they can and can't afford to make. By all means, give us your (uninformed) opinion, but don't claim that what you say is fact.
The average number of projects a company does on KS seems to be 2, though many are just 1, and Mantic is at sitting at 7 and we know more are coming. If they don't have funds, which is probable, it is because their business model is based around funding through KS for all their projects. Of course I don't know their internal numbers, what I do know is that every 4-6 months you can count on them having something on KS, and that can't be an accident that they keep making new KS projects consistently. I'm not sure why this is taken as a negative; it just is how they make it work. My problem, if you could call it that, isn't that they use KS all the time as much as this project doesn't really have any tiers, just an MSRP with bonuses option. It isn't just Mantic either as they aren't the first to have extremely limited tier options. Some of the other projects, such as Mars Attacks as someone mentioned earlier, probably went overboard but this seems like going to far the other way.
Mantic are probably the most full-throttle gaming company around at the moment in terms of the amount of stuff being released.
There has been at least one month this year where they put out more sprues than GW (the battlezones release), give it time and that will increase to 3-4 months out of every year where they've got more output than the market leader and in the same material, for at least half the price.
They're basically just going ahead and making all the games that GW refuses to make.
How many current players of GW games would go nuts for urban sci-fi skirmish, sports games or dungeon crawlers if they were produced and supported?
Daedleh wrote: I'm pretty sure that you missed my point. You have no idea what goes on behind the doors at Mantic and are in no position to make a statement on whether they can and can't afford to make. By all means, give us your (uninformed) opinion, but don't claim that what you say is fact.
The average number of projects a company does on KS seems to be 2, though many are just 1, and Mantic is at sitting at 7 and we know more are coming. If they don't have funds, which is probable, it is because their business model is based around funding through KS for all their projects. Of course I don't know their internal numbers, what I do know is that every 4-6 months you can count on them having something on KS, and that can't be an accident that they keep making new KS projects consistently. I'm not sure why this is taken as a negative; it just is how they make it work. My problem, if you could call it that, isn't that they use KS all the time as much as this project doesn't really have any tiers, just an MSRP with bonuses option. It isn't just Mantic either as they aren't the first to have extremely limited tier options. Some of the other projects, such as Mars Attacks as someone mentioned earlier, probably went overboard but this seems like going to far the other way.
No, that wasn't your point or at least not the one I was originally responding to. Your point was that they "don't really need Kickstarter" to which I pointed out that you're not qualified to make such a statement. I'll discuss it further with you if you can provide any evidence to back up that claim.
Daedleh wrote: Your point was that they "don't really need Kickstarter"
Actually that wasn't my point at all, and was parenthetical at best to the actual issue of lack of tiers and secondarily the subtle difference between being an investor versus being a preorder venue. I'll agree I misstated it a bit, when what I should have said was that I don't think they should need KS at this point, considering everything they have done, their profile, and their successes, except that their model is reliant on KS.
scarletsquig wrote: Mantic are probably the most full-throttle gaming company around at the moment in terms of the amount of stuff being released.
There has been at least one month this year where they put out more sprues than GW (the battlezones release), give it time and that will increase to 3-4 months out of every year where they've got more output than the market leader and in the same material, for at least half the price.
They're basically just going ahead and making all the games that GW refuses to make.
How many current players of GW games would go nuts for urban sci-fi skirmish, sports games or dungeon crawlers if they were produced and supported?
I'd love that. However the quality issue always raises it's ugly head.
Daedleh wrote: Your point was that they "don't really need Kickstarter"
Actually that wasn't my point at all
Yes it was, plain as day. The argument that established companies don't need KS and should be able to fund everything themselves has been brought up over and over again, and refuted every time, primarily for the simple reason that games companies aren't remotely as big, financially liquid, or as popular with investors and banks as gamers think they are. Mantic and CMoN utilise kickstarter very effectively to vastly accelerate their release schedules, and provide more product and visible, tangible ongoing support and expansion for those products while avoiding the vastly unpopular white metal as a material for bulk minis.
Mantic - actually a bit like the old GW releases releases which had spotty quality. We would like nothing but their skellies and zombie efforts. What we get? Well is mass better than quality?
I have probably dropped around 1000 on Mantics stuff. Got all the dreadball stuff and a load of deadzone. I do like Jakes games (even the jungle one ). So I like the games and am buying for them. I do have a load of Mantic plastic to use for random stuff, though also have given/sold a lot of it as well (most was actually for the ultimate DKH experience ).
But this one isn't grabbing me like I thought it would as it is a type of game I love (I won't say how many hours WHQ on iOS has eaten up), but the process is turning me off. I guess I expected a big box approach with a load of scenery and the like. Instead it seems to be a small cheap starter box. Maybe that is the better approach, I guess I am not the audience for that.
agnosto wrote: Jake beat me to it. The downside of all of this Mantic KSs and rapid releases is a nearly complete reliance on a shoddy material.
Without KS the material used - which they'd still be working on, Deadzone, Mars Attacks! and DBX not having happened yet - would have been metal, which I personally find to be harder to work with and more difficult to play with than any any kind of plastic on the market.
I think if I were trolling the boardgame section and saw something like this, I'd probably be more inclined to impulse purchase it if it were simpler and under 75 dollars, than decked out and expensive, but that's just me. I think 50 or 60 bucks would see more traction from not-fans taking a chance on it.
You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out.
Reaper Miniatures are about to launch their third kickstarter and Mierce Miniatures are soon to launch their 4th and how many KS have CMON launched by now? Lets not pretend this isn't common behavior.
You don't see Spartan, Privateer, Fantasy Flight Games or Hawk Wargames showing up on KS like clockwork every few months with their hands out.
Reaper Miniatures are about to launch their third kickstarter and Mierce Miniatures are soon to launch their 4th and how many KS have CMON launched by now? Lets not pretend this isn't common behavior.
I never stated that it was something only Mantic did, but that it is far from common, which it is. The number of companies on KS that go past 2 is in the minority, and when you are hitting 6+ you are certainly in a small group. CMON is the king of the KS model, with 12 and going. There isn't anything wrong with relying on KS as long as it remains a profitable model for the companies, and I have said a few times already that there is nothing wrong with it, but it also doesn't mean we can't look at how others are doing things without relying on KS faux pre-orders to create funding either.
I love that I have 1) said it is a good deal 2) said that Mantic has a good model using KS and 3) backed projects myself (look at sig) but when I have the temerity to discuss the lack of tiers in the current KS (as well as other projects) and questioned whether relying on crowd funding should be the go to model for for established companies suddenly people go nuts and act like I am insulting the company as a whole and kicked a bunch of puppies.
I love that you 1. Ignore people pointing out the flaws in your stance 2. move the goal posts and 3. try to claim we're attacking you rather than pointing out that you're wrong.
angelofvengeance wrote: After seeing the plastic zombies sprue, I'd say Mantic have got their s*** together, quality wise.
My Marauder gun tracks say differently.
Wasn't that released BEFORE plastic DZ zombies?
And? When they sent my replacements for the these they sent ones just as bad. This was happing at about the same time the zombie sprues were being done. One decent product (the zombies) is not close to an indicator they have their gak together. The soft detailed mess the cockpit of the stunt bot looks to be from the pictures they presented coupled with the ill fitting Fortress sprues seem more of an indicator they do not in fact have their gak together quality wise. They may have done well with the zombies, but until they develop a trend of delivering quality and stick to it, their gak is not together quality wise.
Also, aren't we dealing with two different materials here? Starting to get their HP sprues right isn't an indicator that restic quality concerns have gone away.
I never stated that it was something only Mantic did, but that it is far from common, which it is. The number of companies on KS that go past 2 is in the minority...
Well let's be fair. Kickstarter is still a reasonably new thing, and there's nothing to say that, in time, the companies on KS that only have 2 at present will stick to that.
Would have bought in to this if I hadn't already bought Descent 2 (which is a great and beautiful game which I love). Considering that in Sweden, Descent is $77 at the best and cheapest discount store and between $101-$116 at normal retail pricing, this seems like quite a deal from where I am standing.
Mantic has also dropped in the comments that plastic dungeon furniture is a future SG. With plastic, I would guess preassembled boardgame plastic.
Looks like we got the dryuid, and 5k besides. More than I was expecting but the next 25k goal is for a $25 expansion with some gobbos and another adventure so its probably from people upping for that. Another add on for orcoid kow models and 350k adds their rules.
Pacific wrote: Has there been a reveal yet of the dwarf barman, the one cleaning out a glass? If nothing else will certainly be getting that mini if it is any good!
Only as a drawing. So far he is only available with the "all in" pledge level, though this may change later
I think they will mix up the stretch goals between expansion and main box - I imagine that the furniture will be added to the main box at some point, for one.
I agree, I don't get the impression that the main box is finished. People in the comments wanted addons to spend money on, so Mantic gave them something. I think we will see a few more heroes and some dungeon furniture added to the main box at the very least.
I'm curious to know too. The main pledge level keeps growing, at 350k they're adding one each of new goblin sculpts to dungeon master, but those won't be going into the retail box. I'm starting to wonder if the retail box is going to be more of a $50 price point, kind of like DKH when it's not on sale. Probably a lot more sale-able at a lower price... My thinking is guided by the fact that we already get more undead (a bonus 9 for $15 pack) than the retail box.
Might have to get the expansion, if for nothing else than the mawbeasts... would be nice to have a couple without bombs and chainsaw mouths (not that I mind those ) and buying them separately in any other form would cost over half the expansion anyway. Plus goblins are cool.
GrimDork wrote: I'm curious to know too. The main pledge level keeps growing, at 350k they're adding one each of new goblin sculpts to dungeon master, but those won't be going into the retail box. I'm starting to wonder if the retail box is going to be more of a $50 price point, kind of like DKH when it's not on sale. Probably a lot more sale-able at a lower price...
Might have to get the expansion, if for nothing else than the mawbeasts... would be nice to have a couple without bombs and chainsaw mouths (not that I mind those ) and buying them separately in any other form would cost over half the expansion anyway. Plus goblins are cool.
I told you that you would end up going all in. I mean, you might as well...
I don't think I can afford to this year... Especially with battle systems doing a fantasy range starting around the 20th supposedly... I think the best I'll manage is ''spent enough to raise the eyebrown of a non-gamer'' rather than the ridiculous amounts I've spent on other kickstarters. For fantasy models I'm probably set... and terrain I can make my own. I just want a fun system that's simple enough to get my friends to play.
I'm going to get the game, and probably all the expansions. I'm not planning on buying counters, or KOW model add-ons etc. So right now I'm in at 120$ and would be willing to go in for one more expansion, but thats probably my limit.
I am after the core game, expansions, legendary heroes. I have enough counters from other games and the KOW miniatures do not interest me in their current material.
I am @ 145. My cap is 200 on this KS.. I just hope they have enough content to keep the game fresh. I really really want Mantic to talk to Battle Systems and work out a way for their Dungeon Crawler to work with BS Fantasy line.
Yeah. $150 is probably the most I would want to spend too. I may have to drop it altogether and pick it up at retail but the not-Drizz't and all of the extra dungeon missions and stuff really increase the personal value to me so we'll see what's up in 20 days.
A little afraid of what I might do at GenCon, I haven't been to a gamestore in months and I might just nerd out and burn through what little disposable money I have laying around Hopefully I get to take pictures of the Dungeon Saga stuff they bring along (among other things!).
@Primalexile, I don't think any work will be necessary! It's already 1inch tiles which looks like what they're using for DS. I haven't got my scifi stuff but from what I'm seeing I'd be more likely to cut DS before BSL-fantasy, I'd like to get both and integrate them. Maybe take notes from the BS stuff to make my own walls and tie in the DS tiles with the others.
I may be bad at math, but how does a game for 5 players and a co-op mode have 4 heroes... and 5 shown on the box art, and then the 5th hero is added as a stretch goal 275k in... when he is clearly on the box art as one of the 5 core heroes needed for core gameplay?
Where is the not-Drizz't fig? If you think that will make it to production with WotC watching, you insane, especially after the not-codex debacle. Multiple KS who had not-Drizz't have had them squashed already. If there was one IP you don't want to play with, it is WotC.
Some of those goblin stuff looks interesting. Stretch goals for the add-on campaign makes it feel like the boxed set is 'done' and it is barley reaching retail value for me. That is a weak offering and not a lot of game for a 100$ retail box. Gameplay vids and rules hasn't shown anything amazing either, so it really will determine how the Co-OP or PVP rules end up.
5 players, 4 heroes and 1 controls the necromancer and all of the undead enemies. Box art is box art, how many books have you read that actually describe the characters in the same manner as they are drawn on the cover? You only need 4 heroes to play the game.
He's a bit down the list, he's currently either just concept art or a colored sketch, the drawing is of a Caucasian skin tone with shorter not-maine-like hair, really it's just the pair of long swords. Can they really have got the copyright for a fighter with twin swords and leather armor? There's no guenwyvar and he's billed as a demon hunter, I think.
I'm not so sure the retail box will be 100 dollars. I could be totally mistaken, but given the fact that they've already said we're getting an extra $15 batch of undead included in our pledge that will be absent at retail.. I'm really wondering if the box won't be cheaper, like the current DKH offerings.
Keldan, the not-Drizzt
Spoiler:
I mean the resemblance is there, but the face is white, the hair is different, the armor is nothing like I've ever seen Drizzt wear, the swords are probably "scimitars", but they certainly didn't draw the more distinctive hilts they've been giving him in art lately.
nkelsch wrote: I may be bad at math, but how does a game for 5 players and a co-op mode have 4 heroes... and 5 shown on the box art, and then the 5th hero is added as a stretch goal 275k in... when he is clearly on the box art as one of the 5 core heroes needed for core gameplay?
Where is the not-Drizz't fig? If you think that will make it to production with WotC watching, you insane, especially after the not-codex debacle. Multiple KS who had not-Drizz't have had them squashed already. If there was one IP you don't want to play with, it is WotC.
Some of those goblin stuff looks interesting. Stretch goals for the add-on campaign makes it feel like the boxed set is 'done' and it is barley reaching retail value for me. That is a weak offering and not a lot of game for a 100$ retail box. Gameplay vids and rules hasn't shown anything amazing either, so it really will determine how the Co-OP or PVP rules end up.
I actually thought the video was pretty well done.. certainly a lot better than some other efforts I could care to mention !
@Nkelsch - I'm amazed you are still buying new Mantic stuff to be honest! I remember you commenting on the Mantic orc style years ago when they were first released (don't think on this forum), not having a good thing to say about them, and then saying that you have had some of the worst examples of mould-lines ever.. !
I think there were some comments asking for purchasable expansions and so perhaps that is why Mantic have taken that route at this point in the KS.
Separately, I hope those goblins are better than the ones I got some years ago..
I mean, an Elven ranger in leather armour with 2 swords isn't exactly uncommon. - The different paint job would help too. Being someone who is not looking for Drizzt under every rock, it didn't occur to me at all.
I mean, an Elven ranger in leather armour with 2 swords isn't exactly uncommon. - The different paint job would help too. Being someone who is not looking for Drizzt under every rock, it didn't occur to me at all.
Then don't call it 'not-drizzt'
I have seen 'elf with dual swords' yanked from KS because of WotC because it was 'not-drizzt'.
nkelsch wrote: I may be bad at math, but how does a game for 5 players and a co-op mode have 4 heroes... and 5 shown on the box art, and then the 5th hero is added as a stretch goal 275k in... when he is clearly on the box art as one of the 5 core heroes needed for core gameplay?
Where is the not-Drizz't fig? If you think that will make it to production with WotC watching, you insane, especially after the not-codex debacle. Multiple KS who had not-Drizz't have had them squashed already. If there was one IP you don't want to play with, it is WotC.
Some of those goblin stuff looks interesting. Stretch goals for the add-on campaign makes it feel like the boxed set is 'done' and it is barley reaching retail value for me. That is a weak offering and not a lot of game for a 100$ retail box. Gameplay vids and rules hasn't shown anything amazing either, so it really will determine how the Co-OP or PVP rules end up.
Your a little over hyper on the drizz't thing. WotC isn't going to do squat. The Codex thing was just standard Mantic/ Kickstarter shenanigans. Dumb overhype with letting mouth overload brain. Debacle would be if they crushed the whole project over the whole crew, or something like that. ONE figure pulled because someone overstepped their bounds without asking first isn't new for Kickstarter.
The game is going to have at least three times as many heros before its said and done. Drizzel is probably the weakest of the bunch of the fantasy tropes.
They will more then likely by conversation over there have two or three more expansions before the end of the project. If you don't like undead, They'll have some evil dwarfs, or more greenskins to slay in there.
Saw some werewolves in there as well, no reason not to expect a vampire or two along the way.
I'm still in "wait and see" mode. I do have to say that the main box isn't worth $100 to me at this stage for a retail purchase with free shipping delivered this week, let alone KS a year out - so we'll have to wait and see what they come up with.
I feel the same way about the $25 expansions. Needs more for $25 than what's been shown so far.
It also seems likely that the game might well retail for $50 or $60 in the end, and the $100 KS level does actually represent us paying for all of the freebies.
Still, we've got a couple of weeks to decide what to do before it closes...
Especially given how the plastic zombies and terrain turned out (excellent)
