Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
I like how 'Avatars of the Emperor' is less potent than standing next to Inquisitor (which is also free and works all the time). Apparently Custodes are not as scary/inspiring
Also, 'Concussion Grenades' in not returning relic from Rogue Trader, Reivers had it before AC. And for free. Though admittedly it's so short ranged it's nearly useless and Custodes version might be better in practice. Though, given how touch AC termie is, I am not really sure why they would need CG stratagem in the first place, still, it's nice to have.
Raulengrin wrote: New preview is up. Stratagems. Tanglefoot grenade seems like it will be useful, since custodes lack an effective screen from T1 charges.
I like that stratagem for exactly the opposite reason: It prevents an enemy unit from kiting away from deepstruck Custodian Guard or Terminators if they fail the first charge.
Irbis wrote: I like how 'Avatars of the Emperor' is less potent than standing next to Inquisitor (which is also free and works all the time). Apparently Custodes are not as scary/inspiring
Also, 'Concussion Grenades' in not returning relic from Rogue Trader, Reivers had it before AC. And for free. Though admittedly it's so short ranged it's nearly useless and Custodes version might be better in practice. Though, given how touch AC termie is, I am not really sure why they would need CG stratagem in the first place, still, it's nice to have.
When you've got so few models, I guess anything which reduces the enemies effectiveness is gonna be welcome. Would I spend it on chaffe? Nah. But when beating up a lone character or enemy Elites? Absolutely. Why make it any easier for them than it absolutely has to be?
Irbis wrote: I like how 'Avatars of the Emperor' is less potent than standing next to Inquisitor (which is also free and works all the time). Apparently Custodes are not as scary/inspiring
Also, 'Concussion Grenades' in not returning relic from Rogue Trader, Reivers had it before AC. And for free. Though admittedly it's so short ranged it's nearly useless and Custodes version might be better in practice. Though, given how touch AC termie is, I am not really sure why they would need CG stratagem in the first place, still, it's nice to have.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
Hmm, that's a pity. I was planning to take a captain-on-bike with a min-sized squad of bikes and a single squad of Custodian Guard as a patrol detachment to take along with my Space Wolves (as "Primaris Space Wolves"). Although looking at the Custodes range the Custodes Wardens would make excellent SW Varagyr Terminators and the Contemptor-Galatus would make a cool bigger brother to the axe and shield dread... so maybe I will play SW with more Custodes rules and models than actual SW ones for a bit
Crimson wrote: Oh, and that fluff bit about retired Custodes becoming Custodes spies was pretty questionable. I'm sure that eight feet tall guy in black robes is not suspicious at all...
I don't know... somehow The Fallen (Of Dark Angels fame) manage to become GOVERNORS of entire worlds without the rest of the populace noticing, or just hiding out in Hives and such. They're not that much more human looking than Custodes. So hardly unprecedented. Though I'd love to know how they make it work in both groups' cases.
That said, didn't one of the Custodians in a Heresy novel use some form of holo-field to disguise himself right down to his size while infiltrating in the Blood Games? Because that could easily be the sort of stuff they bring with, even if they do give up their war gear.
Crimson wrote: Oh, and that fluff bit about retired Custodes becoming Custodes spies was pretty questionable. I'm sure that eight feet tall guy in black robes is not suspicious at all...
I don't know... somehow The Fallen (Of Dark Angels fame) somehow manage to become GOVERNORS of entire worlds without the rest of the populace noticing, or just hiding out in Hives and such. They're not that much more human looking than Custodes. So hardly unprecedented. Though I'd love to know how they make it work in both groups' cases.
In a universe with tech that allows for genetic manipulation and "hulking bodyguards"? The populace doesn't know how the Custodes or Astartes are supposed to look. It's supposed to be a big deal for someone to ever encounter a member of the Astartes, to where even most Guardsmen(individuals who spend their adult lives fighting on the frontlines or garrisoning Imperial worlds) don't necessarily ever see them.
They might genuinely just think "Hey that's a huge friggin' guy".
the_scotsman wrote: ...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.
The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.
Weird, isnt it, that gw seems unable to do the most basic probability calculations.
Or maybe - just maybe - the melta is a ton more points. Nah...that couldn't be.
the_scotsman wrote: ...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.
The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.
Weird, isnt it, that gw seems unable to do the most basic probability calculations.
Or maybe - just maybe - the melta is a ton more points. Nah...that couldn't be.
You're quite right, it indeed couldn't be! After all, they're two firing modes of the same weapon.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.
If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.
If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.
If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.
During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.
As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.
If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.
During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.
Sweet. That actually makes an Outrider Detachment a bit more reasonable in terms of boxes.
4 boxes. 3 units, with two spares to swap in/out as you see fit. Or 5 boxes to give you 4 spares and 2 Captains(one with each bike weapon loadout).
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.
As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.
Probably different entries to give them different auras/special rules.
the_scotsman wrote: ...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.
The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.
Weird, isnt it, that gw seems unable to do the most basic probability calculations.
Or maybe - just maybe - the melta is a ton more points. Nah...that couldn't be.
You're quite right, it indeed couldn't be! After all, they're two firing modes of the same weapon.
Indeed. One badly designed weapon.
To be fair, it's the same with normal missile launchers. The krak missile is better than the frag missile against almost any target - and the frag missile is not much good against anything for its price.
It seems to be an issue with AA weapons generally. Or maybe it's a problem with the flyers they are intended to kill. The problem is that flyers don't actually tend to be a lot less tough than tanks, but weapons designed to kill them (things like hydras, icarus stormcannons and the like) tend to feature much lower strength, damage and ap than normal anti-tank guns like lascannons. The result is that there's no real point buying a lot of AA units because you're better off having a predator or leman russ shoot at the plane.
The one thing these AA guns tend to be good at is shooting daemon primarchs - and to be fair you tend to see about as many of them as you do flyers. Their invulnerable saves are very good and they don't have great armour. They fly and are not hard to hit. If you've bothered bringing an anti-aircraft gun, shoot it at them... but otherwise a lascannon or 12 will do the trick.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
I forgot to comment on this earlier: Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.
If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.
During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.
Sweet. That actually makes an Outrider Detachment a bit more reasonable in terms of boxes.
4 boxes. 3 units, with two spares to swap in/out as you see fit. Or 5 boxes to give you 4 spares and 2 Captains(one with each bike weapon loadout).
I'm planning on magnetizing the missile launcher/bolter part personally, hopefully it won't be too tricky.
To be fair, it's the same with normal missile launchers. The krak missile is better than the frag missile against almost any target - and the frag missile is not much good against anything for its price.
I feel like the problem with this comparison is that it forgets that the price on the missile launcher is supposed to represent the inclusion of the Krak Missile as well as the Frag Missile.
That said, I'd be 100% down for the price to also include the AA missiles as well.
It seems to be an issue with AA weapons generally. Or maybe it's a problem with the flyers they are intended to kill. The problem is that flyers don't actually tend to be a lot less tough than tanks, but weapons designed to kill them (things like hydras, icarus stormcannons and the like) tend to feature much lower strength, damage and ap than normal anti-tank guns like lascannons. The result is that there's no real point buying a lot of AA units because you're better off having a predator or leman russ shoot at the plane.
That's a bit of the issue happening right now with the variable damage and number of hits on some of the high-end antitank weapons.
If/when that gets addressed, I can see AA weapons being a bit better...but AA weapons have always trended towards being a bit crap.
The one thing these AA guns tend to be good at is shooting daemon primarchs - and to be fair you tend to see about as many of them as you do flyers. Their invulnerable saves are very good and they don't have great armour. They fly and are not hard to hit. If you've bothered bringing an anti-aircraft gun, shoot it at them... but otherwise a lascannon or 12 will do the trick.
I use them on Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels to be honest.
Both units have "Fly" and a -1 to be Hit(Ghostkeels getting a -2 instead).
Being able to tag them with a weapon that's normally fairly effective against them(Autocannons for example) with a weapon that also gets boosted BS is fairly nice in my experience.
Geifer wrote: During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.
Didn't they correct themselves list was wrong and all 3 had missiles? If so, it might be one or the other per whole unit...
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
I forgot to comment on this earlier:
Do we have it confirmed 100% that the Salvo Launchers are 1 per 3 models? It might be that it's unlimited beyond the numbers that come in the box.
If that's the case, I can see a good argument to be made for buying a couple more boxes than you need so that you can have some Salvobikes to swap in for Hurricane Bolter bikes.
During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.
Sweet. That actually makes an Outrider Detachment a bit more reasonable in terms of boxes.
4 boxes. 3 units, with two spares to swap in/out as you see fit. Or 5 boxes to give you 4 spares and 2 Captains(one with each bike weapon loadout).
I'm planning on magnetizing the missile launcher/bolter part personally, hopefully it won't be too tricky.
I'm going to go a step further and magnetise mine for all 5 biker ranged weapons, which I feel will probably become a popular approach quite quickly.
No point in me defending the Flakk missiles, since they aren't great, but they mention a powerful anti-air strategem using units with the missiles. Something about linking fire/creating a net of blasts.
the_scotsman wrote: ...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.
The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.
That's goofy. What about non-vehicle units with the fly rule, such as crisis suits, FMC, and jetbikes?
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.
As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.
Isn't there an option in the main rules for having one understrength unit of a type if you don't have the points/models to hit the minimum size? I thought I read it somewhere, but I play so rarely that it's been a good few months.
May not be ideal, but if all you want to commit is one box and you want that captain, that'd be a legal way of doing it.
Geifer wrote: During the discussion of yesterday's live stream game it was said two of the three bikes fielded had the missile launcher option. I think it's safe to assume that each option is available once per biker.
Didn't they correct themselves list was wrong and all 3 had missiles? If so, it might be one or the other per whole unit...
I didn't watch the game myself and only read the summary posted a couple of pages earlier which said the commentators said three bikes had missile launchers but the army list with two missile launcher and a hurricane turned out to be correct.
But either way, it rules out the weapon choice being 1 in 3 and considering how GW writes rules and creates kits, 2 in 3 being allowed a weapon upgrade isn't likely. It's either 1 in 3 or all of them. Unless GW changed design paradigms again.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.
As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.
Isn't there an option in the main rules for having one understrength unit of a type if you don't have the points/models to hit the minimum size? I thought I read it somewhere, but I play so rarely that it's been a good few months.
May not be ideal, but if all you want to commit is one box and you want that captain, that'd be a legal way of doing it.
And it was FAQed that this can only be used in an Auxiliary Support Detachment, costing you a Command Point.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.
As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.
Isn't there an option in the main rules for having one understrength unit of a type if you don't have the points/models to hit the minimum size? I thought I read it somewhere, but I play so rarely that it's been a good few months.
May not be ideal, but if all you want to commit is one box and you want that captain, that'd be a legal way of doing it.
And it was FAQed that this can only be used in an Auxiliary Support Detachment, costing you a Command Point.
Oh, alright. Time for a new edition, isn't it? With all the things being FAQed already.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah there are lots of nice stratagems, which is awkward if you're playing an army with no cheap units to build battalions.
One thing I took from the stream was they said the minimum size for a jetbike unit is 3. That's a bit awkward isn't it? If you want to make a captain you are left with two bikes you can't easily use. I guess you could get two boxes and make a captain and squad of 5.
Dang, I was hoping the minimum unit size would be 1. That way I could have had one unit of 2, and a leader. Looks like it's plan B. I have a FW jetbike that's been sitting around collecting dust. Time to see if I can convert it to have a hurricane bolter. At least it will look different if I take the relic jetbike.
As a side note, do you think the Shield Captain and Shield Captain on Jetbike will be different entries? I'm guessing so. If not you could have something silly like a Captain on foot with a lance.
Isn't there an option in the main rules for having one understrength unit of a type if you don't have the points/models to hit the minimum size? I thought I read it somewhere, but I play so rarely that it's been a good few months.
May not be ideal, but if all you want to commit is one box and you want that captain, that'd be a legal way of doing it.
And it was FAQed that this can only be used in an Auxiliary Support Detachment, costing you a Command Point.
Oh, alright. Time for a new edition, isn't it? With all the things being FAQed already.
Nah. It's a decision GW have made to keep updating the rules, in the search of balance and clarity. It's not ideal but to be honest I can't see a way around it. I'd sooner they FAQ'd stuff than leave us with broken rules for 5 years, as used to be the case.
I really want to see the point costs. It seems to me that customers are going to live or die on the efficiency of Melta missiles, lacking any other anti armor option
Cephalobeard wrote: Weight of fire on the Hurricane Bolters is likely the best option overall, imo.
6-9 Bikes pump out 72-108 BS2+ Shots at 12", which with fly and a 14" move they can very likely get within.
I think I agree with this. The plan seems to be to gun down chaff, then chop up big things in melee. Actually it looks like it might work reasonably well.
Lots will depend on the price of the missile launchers.
stratigo wrote: I really want to see the point costs. It seems to me that customers are going to live or die on the efficiency of Melta missiles, lacking any other anti armor option
There are some other ways to deal with armor. There are relics that can get the job done (S10 grenade launcher, orbital bombardment). Dreadnoughts can do it at range, as can land raiders. Valoris is Strength 10 with A LOT of attacks. Wardens and terminators also have Strength 8.
I NEED those dice. They are extremely cool and nice looking! And easy to read, not like the Tzeentch or Nurgle ones. And that Collector edition codex with the Jetbikes? Beautifull.
The Allarus Custodian sprue look actually like a real sprue not the strange character-sized sprues of the Deathsrouds.. It could have been 3 sprues but they are nicely packed.
you know, if they ever did release easy to build custodes I'd snatch them up quickly. I think it might be the fastest, cheapest way to build a 40k army.
Speaking of cheap, I was looking through my local store's bits box. I came across a bunch of arms from AoS Stormcast Judicators. Without the bow part of the crossbow, they look A LOT like Sagittarum guard rifles. It would make really easy conversions of custodes models.
cuda1179 wrote: you know, if they ever did release easy to build custodes I'd snatch them up quickly. I think it might be the fastest, cheapest way to build a 40k army.
Speaking of cheap, I was looking through my local store's bits box. I came across a bunch of arms from AoS Stormcast Judicators. Without the bow part of the crossbow, they look A LOT like Sagittarum guard rifles. It would make really easy conversions of custodes models.
Oh yeah I wonder if those Rifle Custodes will be in the Codex. Those Judicator weapons would look AMAZING I bet.
BTW has it been revealed yet what 30k Custodes are in?
Calistro wrote: It's only on the NZ site which have pre orders up, it's not on the Australian site yet either.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The terminators work out to be the same price as the primaries aggressors, (not the easy build kit).
And the HQ is the same price as the primaries librarian
If they work out to 40 points a dude, then I could see a min cost AM brigade + 1000 points of custodes being viable. Custodes have pretty baller strategems but no way to get the CP to use them. You can make a cheapy but artillery stuffed AM brigade for 980 points. an EDIT: or you can do what I do with my admech. Run 1200 points of the most powerful custodes models in a spearhead/vanguard. Then run two battalions on the side. (1) a soup battalion of needed supports, like scout marines, greyfax, celestine, culexus, etc. and (2) a CADIA battalion for your 5+/5+ CP farming and mortar fire. That gives you 10 base CP and 5+/5+ and scout marine area denial (cause custodes get stomped on by deep strike shenanigans).
Oh yeah I wonder if those Rifle Custodes will be in the Codex. Those Judicator weapons would look AMAZING I bet.
BTW has it been revealed yet what 30k Custodes are in?
I'm pretty sure that none of the 30K stuff is in the actual Codex, though they promised that FW will randomly generate some rules for some that stuff when they get round to it.
changemod wrote: Actually I really don't like how the back of the torso looks on the 3D rotation of the Allarus guys.
That was my first reaction, too. I think it's the round thingies for me, more specifically the rectangular holes in them. Look like Tau sept icons if you ask me.
I'll have to see them in the flesh before I'm sure what to make of them, but the backs seem fixed easily enough.
Looking at the collector's edition again I think I'm gonna pass. For $200, I like the books and might pay but unfortunately I'm pretty sure the one I like better (the one with the miserocordia) is just a container for the stuff and the other book is the codex.
Also getting a closer look at the objectives, I now see how little finery is on them. I think instead I'll design out an objective that looks like a Galatus' shield and put engraved Roman numerals on them. Then have shapeways print them in steel (shapeway is such fun) I could have all the finery I want at that point. Shame the cost of custom printing them will be pretty much as much as the collector's edition itself (20-30 usd each). Guess it depends on how thick they are and how much I cut away.
The custodes dice look great and I'll probably direct order a set or two (don't wanna risk ordering local just to find out they're out)
Really disappointed with the Allarus sprues. They're so monopose it's hardly worth the effort. Sad thing is I just need the arms and weapons. Planning on converting them to fit onto a set of Aquilon (got some extra shoulderpads on eBay).
Probably going to get Trajann just because but I'll likely never use him. He's too expensive for what he seems to do (250 to a rumored shield captain cost of 120)
Why is there an SoB one-click now? Who's gonna buy that?
NVM, it's for Celestine solo box. You think they realize how ridiculous it is to still be selling the old metals every time marketing makes them do something like this?
changemod wrote: Actually I really don't like how the back of the torso looks on the 3D rotation of the Allarus guys.
That was my first reaction, too. I think it's the round thingies for me, more specifically the rectangular holes in them. Look like Tau sept icons if you ask me.
Why? Looks industrial, like slotted bolts, kind of fitting seeing it's reactor unit:
changemod wrote: Actually I really don't like how the back of the torso looks on the 3D rotation of the Allarus guys.
That was my first reaction, too. I think it's the round thingies for me, more specifically the rectangular holes in them. Look like Tau sept icons if you ask me.
Why? Looks industrial, like slotted bolts, kind of fitting seeing it's reactor unit:
Compare to the reactor on the back of a regular Custodes or an Aquillon; Both are much more elegant looking.
changemod wrote: Actually I really don't like how the back of the torso looks on the 3D rotation of the Allarus guys.
That was my first reaction, too. I think it's the round thingies for me, more specifically the rectangular holes in them. Look like Tau sept icons if you ask me.
Why? Looks industrial, like slotted bolts, kind of fitting seeing it's reactor unit:
Actually they look quite similar to the backpacks of the Primaris marines (pic is from GW army painter Paul Norton's Twitter account)
Well, I have a $200 rebate from my credit card, so I need to decide what I want to do with it. If I go with more Custodes, I will get the General, two Squads of Terminators (to make a Captain, Vexillus Praetor, and two Squads of 2 Terminators), a squad of Bike, and two Squads of regular Custodes Guards. But I kinda want to get two more Vindicators, two Squads of Blood Angels Aggressors, and a squad of 5 Intercessors. That would get me most of what I need for my Crimson Fists and Blood Angels.
So it comes down to, New Hotness vs. More of the Same.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wait, is the skull the 6 or is the I the 6? I can never tell with these fancy GW dice.
You'll know if you read the store description, very short description.
....each features a skull in place of the 1 and an Adeptus Custodes icon in the place of the 6.
I'm not a fan of 1 handed polearm pose of the Allarus, I'd prefer all polearm weapons 2 handed with the other hand on the trigger ready to fire. Maybe 1 handed pose for the captain, so he'll stand out.
Also the arm and wrist of the Allarus are 1 piece, which is kinda sad, even those it would make assembling them less confusing if you cut all the part out and forgot to group it, which I ran into with the Custodian Guard.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Marines and Chaos Marines lose Biker and Steed HQ's in their codex, and GW then does this crap.
You can still use those Marine leaders on bikes if you use the Index entries.
Greatly missing the point...
I suspect custodes are what we can expect for the future, with HQs being part of troops boxes. space marine bikes are listed as "no longer avaliable" I'm calling i t here, we're getting a new bike pack, that'll have 5 bikes a box, and include the option to make a Captain or Libby outta the box.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Marines and Chaos Marines lose Biker and Steed HQ's in their codex, and GW then does this crap.
You can still use those Marine leaders on bikes if you use the Index entries.
Greatly missing the point...
I suspect custodes are what we can expect for the future, with HQs being part of troops boxes. space marine bikes are listed as "no longer avaliable" I'm calling i t here, we're getting a new bike pack, that'll have 5 bikes a box, and include the option to make a Captain or Libby outta the box.
Bikes won't be a box of 5. I could see maybe 3 with Libby, Chaplain, Captain options, but that is a big ask.
WintersSEO released his codex review. So I decided I hated myself enough to compile the notes from the livestream amd codex review. Reposted from my b&c posts.
General Info:
- Allarus can move 6" - 84pts each with axe
- Shield Captain - 122pts with spear, 160pts on Dawneagle
- Balistus Grenade Launcher - Assault d3 S4AP-3 1D
- Dawneagle 90pts. 105pts with salvo launcher
- Wardens are 61pts with axe
- Vexillus Praetors allow reroll of morale for Imperium infantry or bikers AS WELL as the choice of banner bonus
Lore: The white armoured Solar Watch aren't genetech guardians like originally thought. They are the Sol system guardians, patrolling the system and defense lines.
Relics:
- Raiment of Sorrows: Vexilla or armour (I forget) allows nearby killed Custodes model to fight or shoot again on a 4+
- Eagle's Eye: +1 Invuln
- Praetorian Plate: Choose friendly Imperium character pregame. At any point in the game, if your protection target is within 1" of an enemy unit at the end of the enemy charge phase, you can remove the bearer from where they are (even reserves) and place them within 1" of the enemy and 3" of the protection target. A trans-dimensional heroic intervention!
- Wrath Angelis: Vexilla Magnifica only - Imperium inf and bikes autopass morale. Can call in an orbital bombardment. D3 MW on a 4+, Custodes only hit on a 6
- Castellan's Mark. If bearer is on battlefield at beginning of the beginning of the game but before turn 1. Lets you redeploy bearer and friendly unit.
- Auric Shackles: Reduce enemy character attacks by 1 within 6". If the bearer kills the warlord, you get bonus VPs.
- Auric Aquilis: 3++ jetbike, reroll charge rolls.
- Fulmenaris Aggressor: Replace vexilla - Apparently shoots lightning and can be used as a melee weapon.
- Obliteratum - S10AP-4 D3D grenade launcher.
- Faith Absolute: Vexilla - Allows deny the witch.
Strategems:
3CP - Vexilla Teleport homer: Can set up teleporting unit within 6" of vexilla on the board all turn and more than 3" from the enemy
1CP - Unflinching: 5+ overwatch
1CP - Indomnitable Guardians: After enemy charges and fights. Choose unit within 3" of an objective then fight with them
1CP - Inspire Fear: +1 Enemy morale tests
1CP - Burst missile net: If all fire Flakkburst at the same flying target, reroll wounds
1CP - Spark of Divinity: When psyker uses power within 12", can deny the witch
1CP - Plant the Vexilla: If vexillarus doesn't move, increase range by 6"
1CP - Castellan Strike: Choose unit in fight phase with more than 1 axe. Increase AP to -3
1CP - Eyes of the Emperor: Can discard and draw new tactical objective
1CP - Bringers of the Emperor's Justice: When a Custodes unit fights, 6s to hit allow another attack with that weapon. 4+ vs black legion
2CP - Ever Vigilant: Use when the enemy sets up a unit as reinforcements within 12". Can shoot at them with -1 to hit
2CP - Sentinel Storm: At end of enemy shooting phase, unit with sentinel blades can fire them as if in the shooting phase
2CP - Victor of the Blood Games: Select a character before the game. Can reroll 1 hit, wound and save roll per turn (wow)
Warlord Traits:
Champion of the Imperium: Nearby infantry, bikers and dreads can make heroic interventions (Trajann's trait apparently)
Emperor's Companion: Reroll damage dice
Radiant Mantle: -1 to hit them
Peerless warrior: Each 6 to hit allows another
Superior Creation: 5+ wound ignore
Impregnable Mind: Deny the witch each turn (also get +1 to it)
Darkwrath121 wrote: WintersSEO released his codex review. So I decided I hated myself enough to compile the notes from the livestream amd codex review. Reposted from my b&c posts.
General Info:
- Allarus can move 6" - 84pts each with axe
- Shield Captain - 122pts with spear, 160pts on Dawneagle
- Balistus Grenade Launcher - Assault d3 S4AP-3 1D
- Dawneagle 90pts. 105pts with salvo launcher
- Wardens are 64pts with axe
- Vexillus Praetors allow reroll of morale for Imperium infantry or bikers AS WELL as the choice of banner bonus
Lore: The white armoured Solar Watch aren't genetech guardians like originally thought. They are the Sol system guardians, patrolling the system and defense lines.
Relics:
- Raiment of Sorrows: Vexilla or armour (I forget) allows nearby killed Custodes model to fight or shoot again on a 4+
- Eagle's Eye: +1 Invuln
- Praetorian Plate: Choose friendly Imperium character pregame. At any point in the game, if your protection target is within 1" of an enemy unit at the end of the enemy charge phase, you can remove the bearer from where they are (even reserves) and place them within 1" of the enemy and 3" of the protection target. A trans-dimensional heroic intervention!
- Wrath Angelis: Vexilla Magnifica only - Imperium inf and bikes autopass morale. Can call in an orbital bombardment. D3 MW on a 4+, Custodes only hit on a 6
- Castellan's Mark. If bearer is on battlefield at beginning of the beginning of the game but before turn 1. Lets you redeploy bearer and friendly unit.
- Auric Shackles: Reduce enemy character attacks by 1 within 6". If the bearer kills the warlord, you get bonus VPs.
- Auric Aquilis: 3++ jetbike, reroll charge rolls.
- Fulmenaris Aggressor: Replace vexilla - Apparently shoots lightning and can be used as a melee weapon.
- Obliteratum - S10AP-4 D3D grenade launcher.
- Faith Absolute: Vexilla - Allows deny the witch.
Strategems:
3CP - Vexilla Teleport homer: Can set up teleporting unit within 6" of vexilla on the board all turn and more than 3" from the enemy
1CP - Unflinching: 5+ overwatch
1CP - Indomnitable Guardians: After enemy charges and fights. Choose unit within 3" of an objective then fight with them
1CP - Inspire Fear: +1 Enemy morale tests
1CP - Burst missile net: If all fire Flakkburst at the same flying target, reroll wounds
1CP - Spark of Divinity: When psyker uses power within 12", can deny the witch
1CP - Plant the Vexilla: If vexillarus doesn't move, increase range by 6"
1CP - Castellan Strike: Choose unit in fight phase with more than 1 axe. Increase AP to -3
1CP - Eyes of the Emperor: Can discard and draw new tactical objective
1CP - Bringers of the Emperor's Justice: When a Custodes unit fights, 6s to hit allow another attack with that weapon. 4+ vs black legion
2CP - Ever Vigilant: Use when the enemy sets up a unit as reinforcements within 12". Can shoot at them with -1 to hit
2CP - Sentinel Storm: At end of enemy shooting phase, unit with sentinel blades can fire them as if in the shooting phase
2CP - Victor of the Blood Games: Select a character before the game. Can reroll 1 hit, wound and save roll per turn (wow)
Warlord Traits:
Champion of the Imperium: Nearby infantry, bikers and dreads can make heroic interventions (Trajann's trait apparently)
Emperor's Companion: Reroll damage dice
Radiant Mantle: -1 to hit them
Peerless warrior: Each 6 to hit allows another
Superior Creation: 5+ wound ignore
Impregnable Mind: Deny the witch each turn (also get +1 to it)
You are the man, thank you!
Edit: whelp, that auto pass morale relic means guard blob is back.
General Info:
- Allarus can move 6" - 84pts each with axe
So they aren't Cathapractii. The Website have them wearing:
GW Webstore wrote:These warriors wear suits of Allarus Terminator plate, expertly crafted armour whose worth can be measured in worlds.
Then is not that they lose the 4++ invulnerable for balance measures. They didn't weared cathapractii in the first place (So no 4" movement and half advance rolls)
General Info:
- Allarus can move 6" - 84pts each with axe
So they aren't Cathapractii. The Website have them wearing:
GW Webstore wrote:These warriors wear suits of Allarus Terminator plate, expertly crafted armour whose worth can be measured in worlds.
Then is not that they lose the 4++ invulnerable for balance measures. They didn't weared cathapractii in the first place (So no 4" movement and half advance rolls)
Not necessarily. No matter what the armour is based off of, Custodes terminators are modified to allow them to use their speed. Aquilon terminators used by the Custodes are based on Cataphractii and are as fast as Indomitus pattern, while not slowing their eldar level reflexes. In 8th ed terms, they might even be M6" or 5" without halving advance
COLD CASH wrote: That terminator teleport strat (vexillus) is incredibly nasty.
I can see 1 allarus captain 2-3 allarus and a vex as the soup dijour pick.
Move your screened vex into position(5++) causing havoc and then teleport using that strat and boom dead enemies.
Then you could either consolidate into a charracter or split your terms up into mini kill squads!!
Just watched the codex review on YT and all AC infantry move 6"!!!!
Not sure of legality of this but, give vexilla the hotdrop relic, lock celestine in somewhere, port the vexilla in, hotdrop the allarus directly on top of them, no need to footslog or spend a turn hoping not to die.
Also do we know how much the allarus shield captain costs or how many attacks the different shield captains can have and what equipment they can take? Like can a bike captain take a spear or axe instead of a lance?
Also do we know how much the allarus shield captain costs or how many attacks the different shield captains can have and what equipment they can take? Like can a bike captain take a spear or axe instead of a lance?
Alrighty. I'll answer what I know All Shield-Captains have 5A.
Regular SC can choose between sentinel blade and shield, castellan axe and guardian spear. (6W)
Terminator SC can have axe or spear (7W)
We don't know about the loadouts on Shield-Captains on bikes just yet, but assume just lance for now. (7W)
Also do we know how much the allarus shield captain costs or how many attacks the different shield captains can have and what equipment they can take? Like can a bike captain take a spear or axe instead of a lance?
Alrighty. I'll answer what I know All Shield-Captains have 5A.
Regular SC can choose between sentinel blade and shield, castellan axe and guardian spear. (6W)
Terminator SC can have axe or spear (7W)
We don't know about the loadouts on Shield-Captains on bikes just yet, but assume just lance for now. (7W)
All 3 variants can take misericordia
intreasting that standard SCs can get an axe, as there are no bits for it unless they expect people to use the veterns box as well for standard captains
Also do we know how much the allarus shield captain costs or how many attacks the different shield captains can have and what equipment they can take? Like can a bike captain take a spear or axe instead of a lance?
Alrighty. I'll answer what I know All Shield-Captains have 5A.
Regular SC can choose between sentinel blade and shield, castellan axe and guardian spear. (6W)
Terminator SC can have axe or spear (7W)
We don't know about the loadouts on Shield-Captains on bikes just yet, but assume just lance for now. (7W)
All 3 variants can take misericordia
intreasting that standard SCs can get an axe, as there are no bits for it unless they expect people to use the veterns box as well for standard captains
Yes there is. It is in the Custodian Wardens kit includes Castellan Axes. You can use that kit to make a regular SC.
That relic with the +1 to invulnerable save...... Imagine that, and the 5+++ warlord trait on a shield captain on a bike with a stormsheild (not sure that it's even legal).
That would be 7 wounds, toughness 6, 2++ save, 5+++, and a lot of attacks to back it up.
cuda1179 wrote: That relic with the +1 to invulnerable save...... Imagine that, and the 5+++ warlord trait on a shield captain on a bike with a stormsheild (not sure that it's even legal).
That would be 7 wounds, toughness 6, 2++ save, 5+++, and a lot of attacks to back it up.
No stormshield on the bike. But there is a relic bike with 3++.
I hope that +1 invuln is capped at 3++...
Also do we know how much the allarus shield captain costs or how many attacks the different shield captains can have and what equipment they can take? Like can a bike captain take a spear or axe instead of a lance?
Alrighty. I'll answer what I know All Shield-Captains have 5A.
Regular SC can choose between sentinel blade and shield, castellan axe and guardian spear. (6W)
Terminator SC can have axe or spear (7W)
We don't know about the loadouts on Shield-Captains on bikes just yet, but assume just lance for now. (7W)
All 3 variants can take misericordia
intreasting that standard SCs can get an axe, as there are no bits for it unless they expect people to use the veterns box as well for standard captains
Yes there is. It is in the Custodian Wardens kit includes Castellan Axes. You can use that kit to make a regular SC.
yeah figured that out after I posted. good to know. I think the spears will be the best choice though
I'm not sure spears will be the best choice. I see the Shield captains as doing one of two things: Vehicle hunting, or dominating enemy characters. If vehicle hunting, the ax is definitely better. If character hunting, the enemy likely has an invulnerable save, so the extra AP of the spear isn't going to help.
^ Pretty much this.
I'm arming all of my Allarus with axes and dropping them off the top rope into whatever poor soul is the enemy warlord that game. 4++ or not, poor guy is probably dead under sheer weight of S8 d3d attacks
cuda1179 wrote: I'm not sure spears will be the best choice. I see the Shield captains as doing one of two things: Vehicle hunting, or dominating enemy characters. If vehicle hunting, the ax is definitely better. If character hunting, the enemy likely has an invulnerable save, so the extra AP of the spear isn't going to help.
cuda1179 wrote: That relic with the +1 to invulnerable save...... Imagine that, and the 5+++ warlord trait on a shield captain on a bike with a stormsheild (not sure that it's even legal).
That would be 7 wounds, toughness 6, 2++ save, 5+++, and a lot of attacks to back it up.
No stormshield on the bike. But there is a relic bike with 3++.
I hope that +1 invuln is capped at 3++...
Can't take 2 relics on the same character. And as for the other one, CAN characters take Stormshields?
cuda1179 wrote: That relic with the +1 to invulnerable save...... Imagine that, and the 5+++ warlord trait on a shield captain on a bike with a stormsheild (not sure that it's even legal).
That would be 7 wounds, toughness 6, 2++ save, 5+++, and a lot of attacks to back it up.
No stormshield on the bike. But there is a relic bike with 3++.
I hope that +1 invuln is capped at 3++...
Can't take 2 relics on the same character. And as for the other one, CAN characters take Stormshields?
Oh yeah. Forgot about that restriction. And yes, I mention it on the last page Regular shield captains on foot can take sentinel blades and storm shields. Not sure what the Vexillarus Praetors can take as weapons/gear yet
The Vexilla Teleport Homer strategem sounds amazing, but the only problem with that is if you're using it with a Vexilla Praetor in Allarus Terminator armor, apparently you can't use that strategem the turn that the Vexilla Praetor deep strikes. So if you were intending to use that strategem to deep strike Allarus Terminators (to get them closer to the enemy than their normal deep strike would allow) or Custodian Wardens, you won't be able to screen him with those units that turn. That means that's an entire turn he'll be by himself out in the open unscreened. Granted, you could just deep strike Allarus Terminators normally but that means you're not taking advantage of the closer deep strike from the strategem, making your charge rolls harder to make.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: The Vexilla Teleport Homer strategem sounds amazing, but the only problem with that is if you're using it with a Vexilla Praetor in Allarus Terminator armor, apparently you can't use that strategem the turn that the Vexilla Praetor deep strikes. So if you were intending to use that strategem to deep strike Allarus Terminators (to get them closer to the enemy than their normal deep strike would allow) or Custodian Wardens, you won't be able to screen him with those units that turn. That means that's an entire turn he'll be by himself out in the open unscreened. Granted, you could just deep strike Allarus Terminators normally but that means you're not taking advantage of the closer deep strike from the strategem, making your charge rolls harder to make.
Just use Celestine to hotdrop the vexilla with the 'Squire! To my side!' Relic.
Just use Celestine to hotdrop the vexilla with the 'Squire! To my side!' Relic.
Culexus is cheaper. The only issue with this strategy is that the relic armour teleport only kicks in in their fight phase, so youll still have to survive a round of shooting on the character before the cavalry arrives
A transport would be a great way to catapult him forward for a turn 2 drop, if only the LR didnt cost 350 points...
General Info:
- Allarus can move 6" - 84pts each with axe
So they aren't Cathapractii. The Website have them wearing:
GW Webstore wrote:These warriors wear suits of Allarus Terminator plate, expertly crafted armour whose worth can be measured in worlds.
Then is not that they lose the 4++ invulnerable for balance measures. They didn't weared cathapractii in the first place (So no 4" movement and half advance rolls)
Not necessarily. No matter what the armour is based off of, Custodes terminators are modified to allow them to use their speed. Aquilon terminators used by the Custodes are based on Cataphractii and are as fast as Indomitus pattern, while not slowing their eldar level reflexes. In 8th ed terms, they might even be M6" or 5" without halving advance
If it's fast and 5++ makes more sense to be modified tartaros than modified cataphractii which it shares none of function.
In the video review he says shield captains are 122 points and vexilla are 80. Is that the case regardless of what armour they are in? I know he mentioned having to pay for weapon upgrades but he didn't say that Allarus shield captains and vexillas cost more?
Just use Celestine to hotdrop the vexilla with the 'Squire! To my side!' Relic.
Culexus is cheaper. The only issue with this strategy is that the relic armour teleport only kicks in in their fight phase, so youll still have to survive a round of shooting on the character before the cavalry arrives
A transport would be a great way to catapult him forward for a turn 2 drop, if only the LR didnt cost 350 points...
Yes, a culexus is cheaper than Celestine, he is also a MUCH worse delivery system than she is. I can tell you're not familiar with Celestine and what she does, because the idea of her having any significant difficulty surviving a single shooting phase is laughable. Combine that with moving between 26 and 36 inches before dropping in the vexilla and you have the single best delivery system in the game.
Just use Celestine to hotdrop the vexilla with the 'Squire! To my side!' Relic.
Culexus is cheaper. The only issue with this strategy is that the relic armour teleport only kicks in in their fight phase, so youll still have to survive a round of shooting on the character before the cavalry arrives
A transport would be a great way to catapult him forward for a turn 2 drop, if only the LR didnt cost 350 points...
Yes, a culexus is cheaper than Celestine, he is also a MUCH worse delivery system than she is. I can tell you're not familiar with Celestine and what she does, because the idea of her having any significant difficulty surviving a single shooting phase is laughable. Combine that with moving between 26 and 36 inches before dropping in the vexilla and you have the single best delivery system in the game.
Thanks for assuming but I'm very familiar with her, use her quite often alongside my Custodes already in 8th. I don't know what armies you face but yes she should be quite easy to vaporise in a single round of shooting by any gunline army worth its salt, shes only T3 and 4+ invuln. That said, she will come back to life so will need to be killed again, but if you plod her out into the centre of the battlefield in good position to catapult the Vexilla, chances are she will be dead for the second time in short order. For 200-250 points thats a very expensive way to achieve this little trick.
I was merely pointing out that the hardy Culexus has a good shot at achieving the same feat for a fraction of the price. Remember Celestine is also easy to smite to death - this guy is immune.
Necronmaniac05 wrote: In the video review he says shield captains are 122 points and vexilla are 80. Is that the case regardless of what armour they are in? I know he mentioned having to pay for weapon upgrades but he didn't say that Allarus shield captains and vexillas cost more?
Captains are 122 with spear he said, Vexilus is 80 without any equipment with artificer, 100 pts for terminator vexilus. Don't think I got the points for an Allarus shield captain but the bike captain is 160.so I'm assuming a terminator captain is likely around there.
And while we don't know exact points cost we know some other fair approximations. He said spears were 12 while sentinel blades were 19 total (used to be 14 total so best guess is shields went up by 5).
Personally I'm with the group going with the flat 4++ instead of shields on a few guys. That combined with the Vexilla Magnifica seems to be more than enough to keep infantry alive while they cross the field.
So far I seem to be able to fit 10 guardians, 5 wardens, captain, vexilus, 3 terminators, 2 dreadnoughts, and 3 bikes in a single list.
Still trying to figure out if 3 bikes (with Salvo launchers) will be as good anti tank as a Land Raider (4 lascannons and a twin heavy bolter vs 3 melta missiles) I'm pretty sure melta missiles are better at cracking vehicles than the lascannons with the reroll but I'm not sure about the reduction in shots. Though I am fairly sure that T6 12W and 4++ will be as durable as the land raider (though as always losing firepower as they go down.)
Cephalobeard wrote: Due to how close they are in points, Bikes outclass Terminators by a mile imo.
This. Seriously 84 points?! That seems totally ridiculous.
I can see a cast for wardens with axes. Their 6+ extra save makes them almost as tough as termies, they have another attack, and they are 2/3 the price.
But yeah, bikes. Their reroll to wound makes them about as good at hurting tough stuff as axes, but they have more than double the speed and firepower.
It’s odd. Maybe there’s something we aren’t seeing. Teleporting then in doesn’t seem all that especially great. Yes they can drop onto a Cecil’s, but that requires lots of moving around and is hard to do on turn one - leaving you with a phenomenally expensive unit absent from the game.
cuda1179 wrote: I'm not sure spears will be the best choice. I see the Shield captains as doing one of two things: Vehicle hunting, or dominating enemy characters. If vehicle hunting, the ax is definitely better. If character hunting, the enemy likely has an invulnerable save, so the extra AP of the spear isn't going to help.
Yeah, I think (Without knowing point costs yet) the weapons are:
Axe>Spear>Sword+Shield.
The +2S is much more usefull than the -1AP. Going form S6 to S8 is a big deal. You are wounding T6 in 3+, T7 in 3+ and T8 in 4+, instead of wounding T7 on 5+.
And in case you REALLY need that -1AP? You just use the stratagem for 1CP to improve the AP of axes from -2 to -3.
Cephalobeard wrote: Due to how close they are in points, Bikes outclass Terminators by a mile imo.
This. Seriously 84 points?! That seems totally ridiculous.
I can see a cast for wardens with axes. Their 6+ extra save makes them almost as tough as termies, they have another attack, and they are 2/3 the price.
But yeah, bikes. Their reroll to wound makes them about as good at hurting tough stuff as axes, but they have more than double the speed and firepower.
It’s odd. Maybe there’s something we aren’t seeing. Teleporting then in doesn’t seem all that especially great. Yes they can drop onto a Cecil’s, but that requires lots of moving around and is hard to do on turn one - leaving you with a phenomenally expensive unit absent from the game.
Amusingly enough, I see the best option for Custodes Terminators as 'bruisers' for Imperium factions that lack in bruiser capability.
A Vanguard Detachment of 2x standard bearers in Allarus and a minimum sized Allarus squad led by an Allarus Captain. Give the Captain the Praetorian Plate, give one of the standard bearers the Wrath Angelis standard and have the Captain held back in reserve.
Just use Celestine to hotdrop the vexilla with the 'Squire! To my side!' Relic.
Culexus is cheaper. The only issue with this strategy is that the relic armour teleport only kicks in in their fight phase, so youll still have to survive a round of shooting on the character before the cavalry arrives
A transport would be a great way to catapult him forward for a turn 2 drop, if only the LR didnt cost 350 points...
Yes, a culexus is cheaper than Celestine, he is also a MUCH worse delivery system than she is. I can tell you're not familiar with Celestine and what she does, because the idea of her having any significant difficulty surviving a single shooting phase is laughable. Combine that with moving between 26 and 36 inches before dropping in the vexilla and you have the single best delivery system in the game.
Definitely an intriguing idea, but she is rather pricey in an already pricey army though and the -1 CP from having her in an Auxiliary Detachment to take her is also something to consider considering how CP hungry Custodes will be. Plus, assuming the opponent survives a round of fighting with Celestine somehow they can simply fall back and now Celestine is not only vulnerable to shooting again, she's not within anyone during the enemy fight phase so you couldn't use the teleport relic. And even if it does work, with the beta rules for character targeting you can't screen the Vexilla Praetor with Celestine or a Culexus Assassin from shooting anyway.
COLD CASH wrote: I dont think i would ever use shields, your running everyone at 4++ already 7 points more for a shield at 3++ seems a waste.
I think you would take the Sentinel Blade + Storm Shield if you're taking an MSU squad to hold down a backfield objective. The 3++ definitely helps especially if you're going to get shot at by high AP weapons from Hellblasters and whatnot. Or if you want your Custodian Guard to walk up the board/moved up in a LR to get in on the action, then you would take Spears but even then I think throwing in a Storm Shield guy wouldn't be a bad idea to soak up some damage.
cuda1179 wrote: That relic with the +1 to invulnerable save...... Imagine that, and the 5+++ warlord trait on a shield captain on a bike with a stormsheild (not sure that it's even legal).
That would be 7 wounds, toughness 6, 2++ save, 5+++, and a lot of attacks to back it up.
No stormshield on the bike. But there is a relic bike with 3++.
I hope that +1 invuln is capped at 3++...
I'm pretty sure that's a straight up rule somewhere, that Invuls can never be higher than 3++
Just for the sake of math, it will take 8 melta missile shots to kill a leman russ on average after the bikes move, but without reroll 1 support (it is exactly 14 wounds).
In return it takes 4 distinct battle cannon shots to kill 1 biker (there's a little overkill that gets lost), without order support or rerolling 1s from a non tank commander russ.
cuda1179 wrote: That relic with the +1 to invulnerable save...... Imagine that, and the 5+++ warlord trait on a shield captain on a bike with a stormsheild (not sure that it's even legal).
That would be 7 wounds, toughness 6, 2++ save, 5+++, and a lot of attacks to back it up.
No stormshield on the bike. But there is a relic bike with 3++.
I hope that +1 invuln is capped at 3++...
I'm pretty sure that's a straight up rule somewhere, that Invuls can never be higher than 3++
stratigo wrote: Just for the sake of math, it will take 8 melta missile shots to kill a leman russ on average after the bikes move, but without reroll 1 support (it is exactly 14 wounds).
In return it takes 4 distinct battle cannon shots to kill 1 biker (there's a little overkill that gets lost), without order support or rerolling 1s from a non tank commander russ.
Luckily 8 Melta shots also translates into 24 Melee attacks rerolling wounds on the charge, as well. Most of the time.
cuda1179 wrote: That relic with the +1 to invulnerable save...... Imagine that, and the 5+++ warlord trait on a shield captain on a bike with a stormsheild (not sure that it's even legal).
That would be 7 wounds, toughness 6, 2++ save, 5+++, and a lot of attacks to back it up.
No stormshield on the bike. But there is a relic bike with 3++.
I hope that +1 invuln is capped at 3++...
I'm pretty sure that's a straight up rule somewhere, that Invuls can never be higher than 3++
The Emperor's Chosen army trait for being pure Custodes detachment gives +1 to Invulnerables and says it cannot exceed 3+, but that's it. If the Relic doesn't stipulate this limitation then i'd assume you could get higher than a 3+ Invulnerable save using it..? How it interacts with their army trait though I have no idea.
stratigo wrote: Just for the sake of math, it will take 8 melta missile shots to kill a leman russ on average after the bikes move, but without reroll 1 support (it is exactly 14 wounds).
In return it takes 4 distinct battle cannon shots to kill 1 biker (there's a little overkill that gets lost), without order support or rerolling 1s from a non tank commander russ.
Luckily 8 Melta shots also translates into 24 Melee attacks rerolling wounds on the charge, as well. Most of the time.
stratigo wrote: Just for the sake of math, it will take 8 melta missile shots to kill a leman russ on average after the bikes move, but without reroll 1 support (it is exactly 14 wounds).
In return it takes 4 distinct battle cannon shots to kill 1 biker (there's a little overkill that gets lost), without order support or rerolling 1s from a non tank commander russ.
Luckily 8 Melta shots also translates into 24 Melee attacks rerolling wounds on the charge, as well. Most of the time.
If you can get a -1 to hit vexilla near the bikes (which shouldn’t be too hard) then each Leman Russ does 1.55 wounds, assuming it fires twice. Not all that much really - though in reality that number would be slightly higher with Cadian or Catachan tactics.
That translates to about 3 leman russ tanks required to kill a bike each turn.
In return, a biker does an average 1.75 wounds to a leman russ, if moving (which it should be against IG). So that’s 7 shots to kill a tank.
A Leman Russ with just a heavy bolter and battlecannon costs 152 points. The bike is 105 with salvo launcher.
7 bikes cost 735 points and kill 152 points/turn. 3 Leman Russ cost 456 points and kill 105 points a turn. Dividing the cost you kill by the cost required to kill it, the Leman Russ score .230 and the bikes score .207. So Leman Russ are more efficient at killing bikes than vice versa... ignoring their heavy bolters, regimental tactics and the devastating cc ability of the bikers!
The bikes also don’t degrade like Leman Russ do. All in all, I think these bikes are a decent answer to LRBTs. It still might be better to give them hurricane bolters to sweep the screens away, and then get to work with spears. A squad of 3 bikes can do cheeky things like charge one tank and consolidate into others, seriously wrecking their firepower.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FrozenDwarf wrote: so now that you number crunshers has an idea about the army whit all the leaks and prews, what units have a questionable value for its point cost?
my budget is limted and i dont want to waste it on models that wont preform any good in a pure casual AC army.
Terminators, I think. 84 points for a unit with a damage output very similar to normal Custodes, but one more wound, seems to many to me. I suggest getting bikes instead, replacing the need for shenanigans teleporting to vexillas (at a huge CP cost) with just being really fast.
Strictly speaking I think I’d recommend holding on until we see the FW rules. I doubt many of us will manage to do that though.
I’m not at all sold on Trajan Valorie either, for what it’s worth. He seems only a little better than a shield captain, for twice the cost.
changemod wrote: Actually I really don't like how the back of the torso looks on the 3D rotation of the Allarus guys.
That was my first reaction, too. I think it's the round thingies for me, more specifically the rectangular holes in them. Look like Tau sept icons if you ask me.
Why? Looks industrial, like slotted bolts, kind of fitting seeing it's reactor unit:
I prefer to see Tau symbols rather than industrial slotted bolts, because to be honest the last thing I want super blingy hand-made armor individually crafted by master artificers to look like is "industrial". There's plenty of room for that in different branches of the Imperium. Custodes should be far removed from that kind of look.
Not that I expected any less, really, but those had better be the best Terminators ever. Guess I'll not have to worry about filling points, at least...
Nope sorry, the terminators are barely distinct. Same stats in every respect but for an attack for being veterans, a wound for the extra bulk of their plate and a teleporter built in.
The models are exciting but the rules honestly don't add much. Still ordered 5 things this week and will be doing about the same next though.
I think what I was gonna invest in the terminators, I'm gonna put into Jetbikes. Terminators are cool in both models and rules but I have already a heavy terminator force with my Dark Angels. And those jetbikes are beautifull.
Galas wrote: its like GW has learned that 2++ are horrible. Good.
Well, unlike 7th, there are things like Mortal Wounds as well as spells and other things to negate/reduce inv. saves. There are a few 2++ in 8th Ed. (e.g. Harald Deathwolf) and thus far they haven't made that much of a splash, to be honest.
Yeah, the Terminators are pretty and I don't regret pre-ordering two boxes. But is it really that much to ask to have useful Terminators? Just once? Sigh.
But then again I used my Kastelan Robots to full effect for the first time today and I'm kind of disgusted of their rules. I guess I'll never have to feel that filthy playing Custodes.
Galas wrote: its like GW has learned that 2++ are horrible. Good.
Well, unlike 7th, there are things like Mortal Wounds as well as spells and other things to negate/reduce inv. saves. There are a few 2++ in 8th Ed. (e.g. Harald Deathwolf) and thus far they haven't made that much of a splash, to be honest.
I know. But spamming the game with 2++ and then counter-spamming the spam with spam of MW doesn't make a good gameplay experience. MW are a answer to high invulnerable saves, and high invulnerable saves have their place, but I'll love for them to keep the balance.
Geifer wrote: Yeah, the Terminators are pretty and I don't regret pre-ordering two boxes. But is it really that much to ask to have useful Terminators? Just once? Sigh.
But then again I used my Kastelan Robots to full effect for the first time today and I'm kind of disgusted of their rules. I guess I'll never have to feel that filthy playing Custodes.
Terminators are totally fine in a low-end competitive enviroment (High-mid tier of casual-competitive balance). You don't feel punished for using them unlike in past editions (Or in 8th with things like a Stompa), and they can be very effective. They don't make the cut in the highest competitive end with the strongest of the lists, but 90% of the game doesn't has a place in that kind of enviroment. Normally I balance my lists, if I take some weaker units like Sisters of Silence, then I take a stronger unit to compensate like Celestine+Bullgrynns.
Kanluwen wrote: Let the complaining about the Guard getting immunity to morale commence again!
At what cost?
At 4 points per Conscript it wouldn't be overpowered in the slightest. Infantry squads' morale checks noone ever cared about anyway.
This, morale immunity is nice when it is tied to a 30 point model, but this guy will cost more than 3 squads of infantry (and a relic). I don't see any issue here.
Geifer wrote: Yeah, the Terminators are pretty and I don't regret pre-ordering two boxes. But is it really that much to ask to have useful Terminators? Just once? Sigh.
But then again I used my Kastelan Robots to full effect for the first time today and I'm kind of disgusted of their rules. I guess I'll never have to feel that filthy playing Custodes.
Terminators are totally fine in a low-end competitive enviroment (High-mid tier of casual-competitive balance). You don't feel punished for using them unlike in past editions (Or in 8th with things like a Stompa), and they can be very effective. They don't make the cut in the highest competitive end with the strongest of the lists, but 90% of the game doesn't has a place in that kind of enviroment. Normally I balance my lists, if I take some weaker units like Sisters of Silence, then I take a stronger unit to compensate like Celestine+Bullgrynns.
I'll happily give it a try (not the least because I'm going to have the models ), but at my local store Terminators of any kind haven't performed well at least when I was watching.
I play the models I like with little other consideration. It's just disheartening having some choices which are total trash and then in the next army I find myself with models that steamroll the enemy with no thought or strategy on my part required.
Well, never mind I guess. Thinking about the state of the game just depresses me. Looking on the bright side, Custodes have very pretty models and I settled on a color scheme of white with golden bling and purple cloth. I might try the odd freehand on the few cloaks I'll have in the army. Should be fun to convert the plastic Contemptor I have to actually look good and fit with the bling overload of the infantry, too.
I think the Allarus Terminators have more potential than the other types of Terminators in terms of being viable, they have solid shooting and strategems to go along with it, the best CC of any Terminator, 2+/4++ with a 6 inch move and 4W so they're pretty durable. The biggest issue I can see with them on the tabletop is making the 9 inch charge when you deep strike. The Vexilla Teleport Homer strategem can help mitigate this by making the charge way easier to roll but the only problem is that you apparently can't use it the same turn a Vexilla Praetor deep strikes in.
All that comes at a price, which is historically the problem of Terminators.
I'm not convinced the deep strike vexilla is any good unless it miraculously allows it to deep strike and call in other Terminators in the same turn. I don't see Custodes having the kind of numbers to hold back Terminators for long, or the ability for the vexilla dude to survive long enough. I don't see how this is going to be practical. Especially when the alternative is to just get jetbikes with impressive fire power of their own, good close combat ability and way better mobility with comparable survivability for barely any more points. Or flood the table with barebones Custodians.
3x Biker Shield Captains + A vexila to buff your guard army. Spend CP to get relics on two of the captains.
This.
I'll be using 3-5 bike captains, almost always taking the relic bike and eagle eye for +1 INV to two of them. Give one the FNP Warlord Trait and make the other the Victor of the Blood games and enjoy two Smashfickers.
Galas wrote: its like GW has learned that 2++ are horrible. Good.
Well, unlike 7th, there are things like Mortal Wounds as well as spells and other things to negate/reduce inv. saves. There are a few 2++ in 8th Ed. (e.g. Harald Deathwolf) and thus far they haven't made that much of a splash, to be honest.
2++ wasn't actually problem without reroll. And in 8th ed 2++ is less of issue as it's not tough anyway. Ig infantry is tough. 2++ would almost certainly be soft like all high t, good save models
3x Biker Shield Captains + A vexila to buff your guard army. Spend CP to get relics on two of the captains.
This.
I'll be using 3-5 bike captains, almost always taking the relic bike and eagle eye for +1 INV to two of them. Give one the FNP Warlord Trait and make the other the Victor of the Blood games and enjoy two Smashfickers.
The base bikes are like ... 90 points with bolters? Captains on bikes are ~ 160 for twice the wounds and probably 2 more attacks and relics and they can't be shot at until the guard screen is dead. They would play a lot like Celestine ... but there are 3 of them. I could see them working really well in ITC style missions where you need to move out and take stuff.
The basic bikes sound like a really bad deal. They are 90 points for T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++. Their saves are good, but that is pretty flimsy compared to a T7, 3+, 11wound razorback. Or compared to a T6, 6W, 4+/6++ sydonian dragoon for 68 points. I can only ever see bikes as viable if they have the -1 to be hit vexila to protect them. Otherwise they are gonna die so fast to basic shooting. EDIT: and in a meta of dark reapers ... those bikes are just dogmeat. Every two 4++ you fail is a dead bike and the -1 won't save them. Better to just have guard bodies in the way.
EDIT: first draft based on the models I have access to.
Put the vexila and HQs next to the mortar team herd. Put the astropaths out front to deny. Put the neutrons and basilisks and TPE near each other for repairs. Hope the bikercaptains kick some butt.
Just a quick question: do we know what kinds of dreads the Custodes have access to? Are they able to take things like the bog standard dreads, ven dreads, and Redemptor or are they stuck with only being able to take the ugly plastic Contemptor?
3x Biker Shield Captains + A vexila to buff your guard army. Spend CP to get relics on two of the captains.
This.
I'll be using 3-5 bike captains, almost always taking the relic bike and eagle eye for +1 INV to two of them. Give one the FNP Warlord Trait and make the other the Victor of the Blood games and enjoy two Smashfickers.
The base bikes are like ... 90 points with bolters? Captains on bikes are ~ 160 for twice the wounds and probably 2 more attacks and relics and they can't be shot at until the guard screen is dead. They would play a lot like Celestine ... but there are 3 of them. I could see them working really well in ITC style missions where you need to move out and take stuff.
The basic bikes sound like a really bad deal. They are 90 points for T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++. Their saves are good, but that is pretty flimsy compared to a T7, 3+, 11wound razorback. Or compared to a T6, 6W, 4+/6++ sydonian dragoon for 68 points. I can only ever see bikes as viable if they have the -1 to be hit vexila to protect them. Otherwise they are gonna die so fast to basic shooting. EDIT: and in a meta of dark reapers ... those bikes are just dogmeat. Every two 4++ you fail is a dead bike and the -1 won't save them. Better to just have guard bodies in the way.
Your same justification for Bikes being bad describes the entire Custodes range. They have the best toughness and saves out if the bunch, with more ranged attacks and equal CC attacks to the rest, for a negligible amount more than terminators.
3x Biker Shield Captains + A vexila to buff your guard army. Spend CP to get relics on two of the captains.
This.
I'll be using 3-5 bike captains, almost always taking the relic bike and eagle eye for +1 INV to two of them. Give one the FNP Warlord Trait and make the other the Victor of the Blood games and enjoy two Smashfickers.
The base bikes are like ... 90 points with bolters? Captains on bikes are ~ 160 for twice the wounds and probably 2 more attacks and relics and they can't be shot at until the guard screen is dead. They would play a lot like Celestine ... but there are 3 of them. I could see them working really well in ITC style missions where you need to move out and take stuff.
The basic bikes sound like a really bad deal. They are 90 points for T6, 4 wounds, 2+/4++. Their saves are good, but that is pretty flimsy compared to a T7, 3+, 11wound razorback. Or compared to a T6, 6W, 4+/6++ sydonian dragoon for 68 points. I can only ever see bikes as viable if they have the -1 to be hit vexila to protect them. Otherwise they are gonna die so fast to basic shooting. EDIT: and in a meta of dark reapers ... those bikes are just dogmeat. Every two 4++ you fail is a dead bike and the -1 won't save them. Better to just have guard bodies in the way.
Your same justification for Bikes being bad describes the entire Custodes range. They have the best toughness and saves out if the bunch, with more ranged attacks and equal CC attacks to the rest, for a negligible amount more than terminators.
I think the bikes are the best of the range. 4 wounds is a big deal when there are so many 3 wounds per attack weapons out there. I plan on buying at least 3 bikes. The custodes on foot just aren't viable with dark reapers being a thing now. Just like how my dragoons are non-viable in the competitive scene due to dark reapers.
Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...
MajorTom11 wrote: Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...
Glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like them. Why do they keep showing terminators trying to do the splits?
MajorTom11 wrote: Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...
Yeah, I really prefer the Forge World ones; the fireglaive set in particular looks fantastic.
MajorTom11 wrote: Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...
Personally I think they’re the first terminators where the proportions look correct. All previous terminators, including the FW Custodes ones, look like they have no abdomens and heads that stick out of the centres of their chests.
BlueGrassGamer wrote: Just a quick question: do we know what kinds of dreads the Custodes have access to? Are they able to take things like the bog standard dreads, ven dreads, and Redemptor or are they stuck with only being able to take the ugly plastic Contemptor?
Only Venerable Contemptors until Forgeworld gets around to porting some from 30k.
Custodes in lore would almost never consider using marine-centric vehicles (with the exception of ancient land raiders and dreadnoughts, especially stuff like Redemptor dreads which are almost torture devices.
MajorTom11 wrote: Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...
Personally I think they’re the first terminators where the proportions look correct. All previous terminators, including the FW Custodes ones, look like they have no abdomens and heads that stick out of the centres of their chests.
BlueGrassGamer wrote: Just a quick question: do we know what kinds of dreads the Custodes have access to? Are they able to take things like the bog standard dreads, ven dreads, and Redemptor or are they stuck with only being able to take the ugly plastic Contemptor?
Only Venerable Contemptors until Forgeworld gets around to porting some from 30k.
Custodes in lore would almost never consider using marine-centric vehicles (with the exception of ancient land raiders and dreadnoughts, especially stuff like Redemptor dreads which are almost torture devices.
I'm planning on using the FW relic Contemptor if I find I need a Multi melta or Assault cannon. Its already fairly blinged up, so it should fit in well with a gold paintjob.
MajorTom11 wrote: Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...
Personally I think they’re the first terminators where the proportions look correct. All previous terminators, including the FW Custodes ones, look like they have no abdomens and heads that stick out of the centres of their chests.
Yep, this.
Yep, I have to agree.. all Terminators just look horribly off in proportions, even the FW Custodes ones, I just do not like them at all, I definitely prefer the Allurus ones, though I do think their spread poses are still wierd and off.
MajorTom11 wrote: Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...
Personally I think they’re the first terminators where the proportions look correct. All previous terminators, including the FW Custodes ones, look like they have no abdomens and heads that stick out of the centres of their chests.
Yep, this.
Yep, I have to agree.. all Terminators just look horribly off in proportions, even the FW Custodes ones, I just do not like them at all, I definitely prefer the Allurus ones, though I do think their spread poses are still wierd and off.
Unfortunately the more dynamic the pose the more noticeable it is when it repeats and the Allarus are locked in the same pose except the arms.
MilkmanAl wrote: I have to say, I like the thought of a warlord on a 3++ bike who rerolls things and has 5+++. That's rough.
Yep... so that's exactly what I'm gonna take
Originally this was my main focus as well, but I've since become enthralled with the idea of doing an AM battalion for the CPWT/Relic, so make more use of all the Custodes strats.
Kanluwen wrote: I might have missed this but there's no limitation on number of Vexilla in a Detachment, correct?
Only limited by available slots, the GW preview suggested the bearer was HQ slot, the BOLS preview says Elite.... the fluff on one of the relics mentions multiple vexilla. They aren't an in unit upgrade anymore.
FrozenDwarf wrote: so now that you number crunshers has an idea about the army whit all the leaks and prews, what units have a questionable value for its point cost?
my budget is limted and i dont want to waste it on models that wont preform any good in a pure casual AC army.
Honestly? Most of them. The HQs actually are fairly impressive. But everything else is VERY expensive. You HAVE to get melee to make any sort of point efficient trade, and Melee is the easiest thing to counter in 40k.
I don't think Custodes have it in them as a distinct army to a strong army.
MajorTom11 wrote: Just took a much closer look at the models today, man, those Allarus Terminators are pretty off, super long torso, short legs. Given the direction they have been taking lately with more artscales model, they are a bit of an eyesore for me...
Agreed. They have proportion/posing irregularities even more so than the original Prospero customers. I'm hopeful that the veterans and/or bikers are better in that regard.
So... I couldn't handle the excitement any longer. I am starting a new army. I spent my last pocket money on a codex, a set of dice, a copy of Watchers of the Throne and two sets of Custodes. Now I will have to survive on dry bread and water until like March because that money was meant for buying food...
At least with a low model count, this might actually be the first army I can completely finish painting
Iron_Captain wrote: So... I couldn't handle the excitement any longer. I am starting a new army. I spent my last pocket money on a codex, a set of dice, a copy of Watchers of the Throne and two sets of Custodes. Now I will have to survive on dry bread and water until like March because that money was meant for buying food...
At least with a low model count, this might actually be the first army I can completely finish painting
watchers on the throne is an amazing book, excellent read. at least you won't starve un entertained
When I look at today's pre-orders and other stuff they've talked about in the warhammer community articles I notice only 10 of the 13 datasheets are known. What are the last 3? Are Praetors on bikes their own datasheet?
Red Comet wrote: When I look at today's pre-orders and other stuff they've talked about in the warhammer community articles I notice only 10 of the 13 datasheets are known. What are the last 3? Are Praetors on bikes their own datasheet?
Captain-general
Shield Captain
Shield Captain in terminator armor
Shield Captain on bike
Custodian Guard
Custodian Wardens
Allarus Custodians
Vexilus Praetor
Vexilus Praetor in Terminator armor
Venerable Dreadnought
Venerable Land Raider
Vertus Praetors
Red Comet wrote: When I look at today's pre-orders and other stuff they've talked about in the warhammer community articles I notice only 10 of the 13 datasheets are known. What are the last 3? Are Praetors on bikes their own datasheet?
Captain-general
Shield Captain
Shield Captain in terminator armor
Shield Captain on bike
Custodian Guard
Custodian Wardens
Allarus Custodians
Vexilus Praetor
Vexilus Praetor in Terminator armor
Venerable Dreadnought
Venerable Land Raider
Vertus Praetors
Hrm, even I'm one short....
Trajann Valoris
Edit - Oh wait you had him in Captain-General.
Hmmm, perhaps another character build or vehicle they didn't mention (praying for venerable LR Crusader )
Red Comet wrote: When I look at today's pre-orders and other stuff they've talked about in the warhammer community articles I notice only 10 of the 13 datasheets are known. What are the last 3? Are Praetors on bikes their own datasheet?
Captain-general
Shield Captain
Shield Captain in terminator armor
Shield Captain on bike
Custodian Guard
Custodian Wardens
Allarus Custodians
Vexilus Praetor
Vexilus Praetor in Terminator armor
Venerable Dreadnought
Venerable Land Raider
Vertus Praetors
Hrm, even I'm one short....
I just looked through the Warhammer Community article that came out with the pre-orders and it lists 12 datasheets there. It's possible the pre-order game on the main GW site is wrong about it being 13.
Red Comet wrote: When I look at today's pre-orders and other stuff they've talked about in the warhammer community articles I notice only 10 of the 13 datasheets are known. What are the last 3? Are Praetors on bikes their own datasheet?
Captain-general
Shield Captain
Shield Captain in terminator armor
Shield Captain on bike
Custodian Guard
Custodian Wardens
Allarus Custodians
Vexilus Praetor
Vexilus Praetor in Terminator armor
Venerable Dreadnought
Venerable Land Raider
Vertus Praetors
Hrm, even I'm one short....
I just looked through the Warhammer Community article that came out with the pre-orders and it lists 12 datasheets there. It's possible the pre-order game on the main GW site is wrong about it being 13.
Maybe they're suprising us with something unexpected. VENERABLE STORM RAVEN!
Someone on B&C mentioned 80 base for the bike, 90 for the Jetbike with the hurricane bolter and 105 for the Missile Launcher.
15 bikes with 10 missile launchers for 1500, two captains on bike for 320, and a -1 hit Vexillus on foot (if you have poitns for tda, sure) to make it 2000? Probs not competitive, but will look cool!
Only 4cp, though spend one for a +1 invuln relic on the other captain down to 3...
I think I might go for something like a battalion with 3x5 guards (not least because I’ve got the models), and two biker captains for HQ. I can’t really see why you’d take any other hq.
Wardens look interesting. I guess if I had a squad of those and two vexillas then I’d have 3 elites - enough for a vanguard detachment. So maybe I could run three captains on bikes and have 7cps.
Red Comet wrote: When I look at today's pre-orders and other stuff they've talked about in the warhammer community articles I notice only 10 of the 13 datasheets are known. What are the last 3? Are Praetors on bikes their own datasheet?
Captain-general
Shield Captain
Shield Captain in terminator armor
Shield Captain on bike
Custodian Guard
Custodian Wardens
Allarus Custodians
Vexilus Praetor
Vexilus Praetor in Terminator armor
Venerable Dreadnought
Venerable Land Raider
Vertus Praetors
Hurricane Bolters in bulk will help with hordes, up to a point anyway. But then you aren't taking the melta of course. Balancing anti-horde with anti-tank is going to be tough for the Custodes IMO.
Maybe present your opponent with some imminent threats, deep striking termies or the troops through the strategem and get the bikes in their face to give a couple of dreadnoughts time to move up the board and deal with the tanks, pure AC I can't see winning any tournaments but would be fun for friendly games.
TBH I think "because he's riding on a flying bike" is one of the few times the justification for having a HUEG weapon makes some sense(after normal suspension of disbelief for the whole flying bikes thing).
Looking at them, I think I might like the bikes afterall, I'd just have to leave off the canards so it has a more traditional jetbike profile.
Save the Freudian jokes for extreme cases, they get old super fast.
Woah their chief, was only a light hearted comment. Who pissed in your cereal this morn?
I think you might be taking "that joke gets old really fast" as more hostile than it is. Think a tone of mild, weary frustration at seeing that joke every time something is vaguely cylindrical or long.
I am so glad the Jetbikes are bundled as a 3, was really expecting 2 per box. well there's my Emperor's Children Bikers sorted.
I really don't know whether to start a Slaanesh warband first or keep em as AC, the low models count is extra appealing for someone like me who can't paint an army to save his life.
Doesn't look like there're anything to make the "Dawneagle" jet bike look different from other bikes. Except from the different chest plate of the rider.
Yeah going by the preview for next week I can't spot what makes the shield captain biker distinct from the others, besides the lack of a helmet (and just like the custodian guard, a bare head that I don't like the look of at all).
I hope the veteran box is 45€ like the normal one. But probably it will be 50€ just to make them stand out with a little symbolic "elite" premium price.
But they are basically the same kit. You change Swords+Shields for skirts
I'm considering to make it easily to visually pick out on the table top having my officers have a differant colour of helmet plume, not quite sure what colour I'd go with though.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm considering to make it easily to visually pick out on the table top having my officers have a differant colour of helmet plume, not quite sure what colour I'd go with though.
I was thinking the same thing. As my Custodes are black, I was thinking in White Plume to captains, because the normal ones wear a red one. But maybe Purple will look good too.
BrianDavion wrote: I'm considering to make it easily to visually pick out on the table top having my officers have a differant colour of helmet plume, not quite sure what colour I'd go with though.
I was thinking the same thing. As my Custodes are black, I was thinking in White Plume to captains, because the normal ones wear a red one. But maybe Purple will look good too.
Yeah I was thinking black, the officers aren't quite 100% ready to remove all marks of mourning yet. Purple might be good too, it's often considered a royal colour so making officers purple... yeah a lotta sense
Does anyone know whether the hurricane bolters will be bog standard or have some sort of advantage over the non Custodes variant? Blood of kittens reported they'd have -1 AP, but so far this is the only source and I don't know how reliable this is. -1 AP would be insanely good though.
Gryphonne wrote: Does anyone know whether the hurricane bolters will be bog standard or have some sort of advantage over the non Custodes variant? Blood of kittens reported they'd have -1 AP, but so far this is the only source and I don't know how reliable this is. -1 AP would be insanely good though.
If they are -1 AP, they become the absolute best option for weapons on the jetbikes.
Gryphonne wrote: Does anyone know whether the hurricane bolters will be bog standard or have some sort of advantage over the non Custodes variant? Blood of kittens reported they'd have -1 AP, but so far this is the only source and I don't know how reliable this is. -1 AP would be insanely good though.
If they are -1 AP, they become the absolute best option for weapons on the jetbikes.
I couldn't agree more. Total horde slayers if that's true. Even makes them okay at killing light to medium vehicles.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I have 3 of the fw bikes. The original plan was to use them as squad leaders, but they will stand out more as hqs.
I don't think I could bring myself to do that, the gyrfalcon bikes are less attractive, less elaborate and have a very monopose driver. They seem pretty poorly suited to represent higher ranking individuals.
I have always hated that about Warhammer40k... why vehicles are using the same weapons than infantry? Why is a tank lasscanon the same has the one a SM is wearing? Why is a Adeptus Custodes bike using 6 basic Bolters strap together? Who tought that was a good idea?
"Guys we need weaponry to our tanks and aircraft" "Hmmm, we have a ton of bolters left hover, just glue them together and call it a day". I supose its part of the "grimdark" but... sorry. I needed to vent it out.
Galas wrote: I have always hated that about Warhammer40k... why vehicles are using the same weapons than infantry? Why is a tank lasscanon the same has the one a SM is wearing? Why is a Adeptus Custodes bike using 6 basic Bolters strap together? Who tought that was a good idea?
"Guys we need weaponry to our tanks and aircraft" "Hmmm, we have a ton of bolters left hover, just glue them together and call it a day". I supose its part of the "grimdark" but... sorry. I needed to vent it out.
In some way I kind-of agree. I think it would have been cooler looking to have a mini punisher cannon mounted on the jetbikes.
Galas wrote: I have always hated that about Warhammer40k... why vehicles are using the same weapons than infantry? Why is a tank lasscanon the same has the one a SM is wearing? Why is a Adeptus Custodes bike using 6 basic Bolters strap together? Who tought that was a good idea?
"Guys we need weaponry to our tanks and aircraft" "Hmmm, we have a ton of bolters left hover, just glue them together and call it a day". I supose its part of the "grimdark" but... sorry. I needed to vent it out.
Agreed, some sort of rotary bolt cannon would look better on a vehicle, or a "twin linked" las-cannon simply being a larger than usual single barrel weapon with larger power packs.
Sort of the old Space Marine v1 "grade" system where the weapon either side of the land raider was a "grade 2 laser cannon", which just meant it was a single weapon, that fired as two, at the same target - a war hound titan could carry the same, warlords up to grade 4.
No reason a weapon could not be called a hurricane bolter, but still be physically a single barrel weapon, just with a higher rate of fire, a cooling system and larger ammo bin - agree simply sticking the front half of six infantry side arms ends up looking like something an Ork would do
We do the same thing in the real. The m240, M2, and Mk19 go on tanks, Bradleys, and trucks/humvees as wells as with infantry units. Same missile systems on vehicles have ground mounted options for dismounted infantry. I dunno what the strykers and new light/vehicle systems use, really. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, the weapons are there to kill the same targets regardless of platform.
A better question is “how are individual infantrymen carrying light squad support weapons and using them as SMGs/assault rifles?”
The answer is, of course, that they are surgically enhanced super-soldiers in powered armour.
The idea that a fully automatic .75 cal RPG launcher is in any way somehow “basic” is part of the problem. Considering that the support weapon mounted on a fixed bracket on an HMMV is typically a .50 cal solid slug thrower, the complaint that a hover bike which has six of a weapon of greater calibre and destructive potential seems somehow lacklustre feels a bit dodgy.
gigasnail wrote: We do the same thing in the real. The m240, M2, and Mk19 go on tanks, Bradleys, and trucks/humvees as wells as with infantry units. Same missile systems on vehicles have ground mounted options for dismounted infantry. I dunno what the strykers and new light/vehicle systems use, really. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, the weapons are there to kill the same targets regardless of platform.
True, but when they wanted a mahoosive gun for the A-10, they didn't take a whole load of infantry weapons and some araldite
and while its true the Germans tried to mount the 88mm gun on everything from armoured vehicles to farm animals even they didn't generally try to weld six of them together.
Though the Canadians did stick a whole load of PIAT anti tank weapons on the back of an infantry carrier
Mr_Rose wrote: A better question is “how are individual infantrymen carrying light squad support weapons and using them as SMGs/assault rifles?”
The answer is, of course, that they are surgically enhanced super-soldiers in powered armour.
The idea that a fully automatic .75 cal RPG launcher is in any way somehow “basic” is part of the problem. Considering that the support weapon mounted on a fixed bracket on an HMMV is typically a .50 cal solid slug thrower, the complaint that a hover bike which has six of a weapon of greater calibre and destructive potential seems somehow lacklustre feels a bit dodgy.
Has leopard has said, it has nothing to do with the firepower or the technical details about it. Is just that it looks lazy AF. Straping 6 bolters together in a archeo-tech marvel like the Jetbike this custodes use doesn't feel right.
But sorry I don't want to make about this a "Bows are stupid in warhammer 40k". Lets just leave this here, it was just my personal opinion.
Has it been confirmed that the minimum squad size for the bikes is three? It seems quite odd to me that all of the other minimum squad sizes allow you to build both a Shield Captain and Vexila out of the box and still field the rest as a proper unit, but the bikes can't build the Shield Captain option without having to buy another box to legally field the rest.
It's probably a joke from a web series (emperor TTS) where the captain general of the custodes is known as little kitten. Or a really weird coincidence.
warboss wrote: Has the price of the jetbikes in USD been revealed?
Based on FW prices, I am guessing $90 and the Captain versionwill be $45.
I hope they won't be. I don't think GW uses the FW prices as a yardstick for much but admittedly I haven't been paying much attention for a few years thanks to 6th/7th editions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SilverAlien wrote: It's probably a joke from a web series (emperor TTS) where the captain general of the custodes is known as little kitten. Or a really weird coincidence.
Batallion:
Shield captain on foot
Vexilla
3 units 3 custodian guard
Outrider:
Bike captain
3 units 3 bikers
Vanguard:
Bike captain
3 terminators
2 contemptors
Comes in around 2.5k points?
Giving all the bikes hurricane bolters that is and the guard spears, hopefully have the points left for multi meltas on the contemptors
Batallion:
Shield captain on foot
Vexilla
3 units 3 custodian guard
Outrider:
Bike captain
3 units 3 bikers
Vanguard:
Bike captain
3 terminators
2 contemptors
Comes in around 2.5k points?
Giving all the bikes hurricane bolters that is and the guard spears, hopefully have the points left for multi meltas on the contemptors
From what I understand, the Vexilla is Elite, not HQ, so you're missing a shield captain in your Battalion.
My current plan is as follows:
Battalion
Captain General dude
Shield Captain in Terminator Armor (Axe probably)
3x units of Custodian Guard (two Squads of Spears, one squad of Sword and Board)
Vanguard
Shield Captain of some sort (might pick up an extra off eBay, probably with )
Vexillus Praetor in Terminator Armor (with an Axe)
2x 2-man squads of Terminators (I am thinking Axes on everyone)
No idea how many points that will end up being. I am leaning toward Axes on Characters, but Spears are a good option as well. I might get two boxes of bikes, one to make a bike squad, and one to make three Shield Captains.
Deadawake1347 wrote: Has it been confirmed that the minimum squad size for the bikes is three? It seems quite odd to me that all of the other minimum squad sizes allow you to build both a Shield Captain and Vexila out of the box and still field the rest as a proper unit, but the bikes can't build the Shield Captain option without having to buy another box to legally field the rest.
2-7 according to bell of lost souls,they mentioned you could build the shield captain and still have a legal unit left over.
Batallion:
Shield captain on foot
Vexilla
3 units 3 custodian guard
Outrider:
Bike captain
3 units 3 bikers
Vanguard:
Bike captain
3 terminators
2 contemptors
Comes in around 2.5k points?
Giving all the bikes hurricane bolters that is and the guard spears, hopefully have the points left for multi meltas on the contemptors
From what I understand, the Vexilla is Elite, not HQ, so you're missing a shield captain in your Battalion.
Ahh that's a shame, the GW website confused me because only the dread is under elites while valoris, the terminators but titled as shield captain in terminator armour and the terminators titled as the vexilla are all under HQ
Deadawake1347 wrote: Has it been confirmed that the minimum squad size for the bikes is three? It seems quite odd to me that all of the other minimum squad sizes allow you to build both a Shield Captain and Vexila out of the box and still field the rest as a proper unit, but the bikes can't build the Shield Captain option without having to buy another box to legally field the rest.
2-7 according to bell of lost souls,they mentioned you could build the shield captain and still have a legal unit left over.
If that is the case, I am definitely getting a box of bikes and making a Bike Shield Captain my other Shield Captain.
i really feel like the Allarus termies should have a 4+ save, getting a 3+ save. that would justify their cost from the jet bikes more, and make them fit in to the duribility rather than speed roll they are supposed to be in.
kind of in my same argument of paladins having a 4+ save to cast sancutary for a 3+ INV. would make them actually durable and worth thier cost.
for some reason GW is really afraid of making truly durible termies
i guess the T5 plus the 4 wounds with a -1 to hit with a banner does make them decent. but with a 3+ save they could really take some punishment..
Spartan117xyz wrote: i really feel like the Allarus termies should have a 4+ save, getting a 3+ save. that would justify their cost from the jet bikes more, and make them fit in to the duribility rather than speed roll they are supposed to be in.
kind of in my same argument of paladins having a 4+ save to cast sancutary for a 3+ INV. would make them actually durable and worth thier cost.
for some reason GW is really afraid of making truly durible termies
i guess the T5 plus the 4 wounds with a -1 to hit with a banner does make them decent. but with a 3+ save they could really take some punishment..
Well if the armour is based on tartaros makes sense and gives them unique role compared to FW termies. Less overlap=more models sold.
gigasnail wrote: We do the same thing in the real. The m240, M2, and Mk19 go on tanks, Bradleys, and trucks/humvees as wells as with infantry units. Same missile systems on vehicles have ground mounted options for dismounted infantry. I dunno what the strykers and new light/vehicle systems use, really. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, the weapons are there to kill the same targets regardless of platform.
True, but when they wanted a mahoosive gun for the A-10, they didn't take a whole load of infantry weapons and some araldite
and while its true the Germans tried to mount the 88mm gun on everything from armoured vehicles to farm animals even they didn't generally try to weld six of them together.
Though the Canadians did stick a whole load of PIAT anti tank weapons on the back of an infantry carrier
It's... I can see both sides of this. It also reminds me of BattleTech, how the original tech was lost, and as it broke down, they stripped it out of the mechs and replaced it with more traditional weapon systems. Over the years, the original weapon systems broke down, could not be fixed as there's no STC, and they made do by slapping in the bolters. In regards to the bolters, in theory they are easier to maintain, as if a single bolter breaks down in that array, you can yank it and replace it. If a single bolter breaks down, you still have 5 firing weapons on that bike, where if a single firing system breaks, the bike loses half (or all?) of it's firepower.
However twin gatling style weapons would have been so pretty.
Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.
The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.
But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.
Mandragola wrote: Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.
The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.
But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.
^ This guy gets it!
Termies for AC are bad. Better to bring normal AC troops for less points. Better yet, more bikes.
But the termies can be deep strike without cp and you need to be near fastly so you can only deep strike 2 units.
Do you think it's possible to get magnets for the twoo weapons on the bikes?
taetrius67 wrote: But the termies can be deep strike without cp and you need to be near fastly so you can only deep strike 2 units.
Do you think it's possible to get magnets for the twoo weapons on the bikes?
Depends on how deep the weapons go into the slot.
The bolters have enough depth sticking out that you can fit a magnet in but the missiles are much thinner. If they don't slot in a bit you might have trouble.
Mandragola wrote: Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.
The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.
But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.
But don't forget about the Balistus Grenade Launcher - Assault d3 S4AP-3 1D
Mandragola wrote: Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.
The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.
But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.
But don't forget about the Balistus Grenade Launcher - Assault d3 S4AP-3 1D
That's not good though, hence why it is forgotten. Do we even know its range? GW loves to have units deepstrike, but have useless weapons for actually deepstriking (termies n flamers, reavers with stun grenades, etc) I wouldn't be surprised if they made the launcher 9'' so its just short. Also random shots for a str 4 is nothing to get excited about. They are simply overcoatsed, and bikes for 6 more points are vastly better
taetrius67 wrote: But the termies can be deep strike without cp and you need to be near fastly so you can only deep strike 2 units.
Do you think it's possible to get magnets for the twoo weapons on the bikes?
Depends on how deep the weapons go into the slot.
The bolters have enough depth sticking out that you can fit a magnet in but the missiles are much thinner. If they don't slot in a bit you might have trouble.
If they're like the sponson weapons on the stormfang, you might not need to magnetize them. Just a tiny bit of silly or poster putty will hold them in if they push in from the front.
The bikes are $50 for 3 (35 pounds from leaks). How many boxes you guys getting? At that price I might as well get 2.
And to the magnets point ... I can't ever see using those melta missiles. Just bring allies. Or admech. Custodes aren't a mono codex army as written without the forgeworld pieces. When you really need anti tank in two months, get the resin custodes tank.
EDIT: I only see two units ever getting deep striked from the deep strike strategem.
1) a 10 bike mega bomb
2) a vexila for some kind of other deepstrike shenanigans
Wulfey wrote: The bikes are $50 for 3 (35 pounds from leaks). How many boxes you guys getting? At that price I might as well get 2.
And to the magnets point ... I can't ever see using those melta missiles. Just bring allies. Or admech. Custodes aren't a mono codex army as written without the forgeworld pieces. When you really need anti tank in two months, get the resin custodes tank.
That's If the tanks get rules. Personally I'd love to have one but I'm not counting on anything at the moment.
Unfortunately right now the timeframe for custodes 30k rules to translate to 40k is anywhere from 1-2 weeks all the way to fires of cyraxus (I'm calling late q3-q4 2018).
As for meltas missiles, I can take a land raider with 2+/5++ and 4 lascannons or I can take 3 bikes with meltas missiles (which wound vehicles easier) for 49pts less. And the bikes probably won't get bogged down by some piddly guard squad. Also those lances reroll wounds on the charge and a 5+ with a reroll is better than a 4+, means missile bikes will be dangerous anti tank units at all ranges.
Personally I'm probably going to go 3 bikes and 1-2 dreads as my anti tank but then again I've watched 5 custodians rip a knight limb from limb.
Custodes anti tank consists of getting to spears length.
Hurricane bolters are fun but I think I'd rather rely on infantry for anti infantry firepower (that and dread shooting) I actually like guardian spears shooting profile.
I think custodes are going to be more stand alone than grey knights before FW, and after they'll have people demanding points increases.
I have a bit of a hard time believing that the bikes are going to be that cheap... But if they are I'm not going to complain in the slightest! I was expecting $75 at least.
Though if that's the case there really is no reason to ever use the terminators. From what I've seen they have nearly the same cost, durability, melee output... And the bikes have greater ranged output and far superior speed.
Wulfey wrote: The bikes are $50 for 3 (35 pounds from leaks). How many boxes you guys getting? At that price I might as well get 2.
And to the magnets point ... I can't ever see using those melta missiles. Just bring allies. Or admech. Custodes aren't a mono codex army as written without the forgeworld pieces. When you really need anti tank in two months, get the resin custodes tank.
Or get the Contemptor-Achillius. The las-pulser was d3 twin-linked lascannon shots last edition, just imagine if they translate it wholesale and it comes out as 2d3 lascannons. (They probably won't.)
Wulfey wrote: The bikes are $50 for 3 (35 pounds from leaks). How many boxes you guys getting? At that price I might as well get 2.
And to the magnets point ... I can't ever see using those melta missiles. Just bring allies. Or admech. Custodes aren't a mono codex army as written without the forgeworld pieces. When you really need anti tank in two months, get the resin custodes tank.
Or get the Contemptor-Achillius. The las-pulser was d3 twin-linked lascannon shots last edition, just imagine if they translate it wholesale and it comes out as 2d3 lascannons. (They probably won't.)
(At least two boxes of bikes, possibly more.)
Double checked inferno, it's not twin linked. The Gyrefalcons could upgrade to a twin linked one though.
Sadly I'll put money says FW prices the las-pulsar at the same cost as a twin linked lascannon, despite its shorter range and random shots (dear god I hate random shots in anything but templates)
Mandragola wrote: Termies are tough, but not a lot tougher than anyone else in the list. Their 4th wound costs an awful lot, making them overall less durable than the same points spent on normal guards. Wardens are very comparable, with their extra 6+ fnp.
The problem with 4 wounds is plasma. Thy are a lot tougher against things that do 3 damage, so I guess you need to get them stuck into Magnus.
But most of the time, points spent on normal guys will result in more enemy dead and a longer-lasting army.
It partly makes them more durable to anything with D6 damage as well (by one wound in the end with averages) but D3 damage won't matter as much.
I see the terminators as something big and scary to deep strike in your opponents face while the rest of your army moves up without spending command points but the bikes still seem better, just the S8 axes and 4 wounds are quite nice to have
Mantle wrote: I see the terminators as something big and scary to deep strike in your opponents face while the rest of your army moves up without spending command points but the bikes still seem better, just the S8 axes and 4 wounds are quite nice to have
I see the Terminators as a way for an army like Guard to bring a character hunting melee in that isn't just throwing Assassins at the problem.
Plus it's an easy way to field them, given a Vanguard Detachment.
HQ: Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor
Elite: Vexilla
Elite: Vexilla
Elite: Allarus Terminators.
Bring them in, pop the "Unleash the Lions" stratagem and have the Allarus Terminators break apart into a bunch of models going solo character hunting.
With bikes at that price I think we need to start thinking about the budget astra militarum brigade combined with the min patrol for custodes.
Patrol: Shield Cap 9x biker bomb 3x custodians
Because the custodes strategems get massively more effective at high model counts. Does +1 to wound on spears work on the biker lances?
EDIT: it is relaly hard to fit in a biker squad. They are so expensive and fast attacks fill out slots in such lame ways. Biker captain spam is so easy to make work.
Wulfey wrote: With bikes at that price I think we need to start thinking about the budget astra militarum brigade combined with the min patrol for custodes.
Patrol:
Shield Cap
9x biker bomb
3x custodians
Because the custodes strategems get massively more effective at high model counts. Does +1 to wound on spears work on the biker lances?
EDIT: it is relaly hard to fit in a biker squad. They are so expensive and fast attacks fill out slots in such lame ways. Biker captain spam is so easy to make work.
Doubt it. Stratagem specifies guardian spears which they are not. Also, did someone say earlier the bikes have a max squad size of 7?
Wulfey wrote: With bikes at that price I think we need to start thinking about the budget astra militarum brigade combined with the min patrol for custodes.
Patrol: Shield Cap 9x biker bomb 3x custodians
Because the custodes strategems get massively more effective at high model counts. Does +1 to wound on spears work on the biker lances?
EDIT: it is relaly hard to fit in a biker squad. They are so expensive and fast attacks fill out slots in such lame ways. Biker captain spam is so easy to make work.
Doubt it. Stratagem specifies guardian spears which they are not. Also, did someone say earlier the bikes have a max squad size of 7?
Alright, that keeps making the 3x biker captain supreme command way more attractive. When paired with a budget guard brigade they will have the CP they need to kick some butt. If you make one of the bikers your WL and spend 3 CP on extra relics, that gives you all 3 with relics and you can use the strategem to move the 5+++ FNPWL trait around as the lead one dies. Paired with an AM brigade you start at 13 CP, spend 3 CP for the relics and leave 10CP for biker butt kicking. Then you can plop that 5++ banner bro in the middle of a fat stack of mortar crews behind LOS. That is plenty of CP to even do the 5++ plant the vexila to spread that sweet 5++ across your whole guard herd. EDIT: you can even spend some CP to deepstrike one of the biker bros if you need it for the mission. I don't think you should because I prefer their 14" move and charging.
+1 invul and RR charge bike for the WL with 5+++ FNP +1 invul for the second biker -1 to character attacks for the third biker / or the -1 to hit relic
Send in WL first and save some CP to pass his 5+++ as necessary
I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.
What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?
I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?
Therion wrote: I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.
What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?
I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?
You're right, nothing in this codex is very good unless you play them in a vacuum or against opponents that use garbage like Tactical squads :p GW simply doesn't understand how to make elite units feel powerful or useful (hint: increasing attacks by 1 or 2 isn't it). I imagine you'll see mainly people throwing the vexilla in with guard or maybe using a single unit of custodes as assault protection (Unsure why anyone needs protection against something that is so ineffective tho)
Therion wrote: I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.
What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?
I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?
You're right, nothing in this codex is very good unless you play them in a vacuum or against opponents that use garbage like Tactical squads :p GW simply doesn't understand how to make elite units feel powerful or useful (hint: increasing attacks by 1 or 2 isn't it). I imagine you'll see mainly people throwing the vexilla in with guard or maybe using a single unit of custodes as assault protection (Unsure why anyone needs protection against something that is so ineffective tho)
Or mainly people playing pure Custodes armies because they like the models and the rules in more casual or relaxed competitive tournaments and local meta? I know in USA you have the ITC and a lot of competitive scenes, etc... but don't extrapolate that to the rest of the world.
Therion wrote: I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.
What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?
I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?
Culexus and Eversor hit like wet noodles and the Eversor is way less survivable than the bikes are; they are also both massively slower, sammael is less survivable and more expensive for doing very marginally more damage(provided he risks killing himself), Talon master is much MUCH less survivable, more expensive, and does overall very similar damage to a custodes biker. And part of the point of taking the custodes bikers is that you WANT your opponent to shoot at them. Please, feel free to blow 500pts of lascannons on my 160pt model.
The custodes bike captains are pretty much the perfect combination of speed, survivability and DPS...provided you run them either in a custodes army or in an index army where who the warlord is doesn't matter. 1 Custodes bike with the 3++ relic bike and the 5++ warlord trait is a great workhorse in an imperium army that doesn't have very good relics/warlord traits.
Talonmasters with the heavenfall blade are comparable in combat damage to a biker shield captain with lance and talonmasters can outshoot a biker captain.
But talonmasters can't shoot if they advance to get their jink save. And they have no invul save in combat. And they have 1 less wound and 1 less attack most likely.
The heavenfall blade talonmaster does belong in every competitive dark angels list, but you only get one of him due to needing a relic to be viable in combat.
And to the WLT point, the idea with taking custodes WLT is to maximize their power. I have run Grand Strategist in my competitive lists since the day it came out. I know how useful it is. Not having grand strategist hurts, but I think overall the WLT on the custodes gives more because it gets another relic and the useful WLT switching strategem of the custodes. You are effectively choosing between two things:
(1) tougher bikers
(2) 5-6 more CP
Perhaps you can get more out of the bikers with more CP, but I think you need first turn durability more than those 5 more CP than the 10 you start off with (after relics).
Therion wrote: I'm not seeing yet what all the rage is about. The three Jetbike bosses aren't revolutionary in the slightest. Eversors and Culexi have done the same jobs at very efficient price tags, and at the cutting edge even they aren't cutting it anymore. Likewise, Sammael and Talonmaster can unleash more points efficient shooting power while also remaining untargetable behind some infantry lines.
What would push the Jetbike captains over the top as a preferable choice over the previous? Other than the shiny new miniatures?
I'm also baffled that you'd take a 5++ FNP Warlord trait (no matter if it can be recycled in the odd scenario the enemy doesn't kill the other captains first) if you have an Astra brigade. Hello, Grand Strategist?
You're right, nothing in this codex is very good unless you play them in a vacuum or against opponents that use garbage like Tactical squads :p GW simply doesn't understand how to make elite units feel powerful or useful (hint: increasing attacks by 1 or 2 isn't it). I imagine you'll see mainly people throwing the vexilla in with guard or maybe using a single unit of custodes as assault protection (Unsure why anyone needs protection against something that is so ineffective tho)
Or mainly people playing pure Custodes armies because they like the models and the rules in more casual or relaxed competitive tournaments and local meta? I know in USA you have the ITC and a lot of competitive scenes, etc... but don't extrapolate that to the rest of the world.
Heck don't even extrapolate to the US in general. Local meta wreaks havoc on what should or should not be competitive all the time.
I hang at a store that sends 2 teams to ATC every year as well as maybe a half dozen to the other major nationals. But they don't define our local tourney scene.
Personally I'm planning on expanding my custodes because of Dave Taylor's 2004 custodes force that was totally converted (and that I missed out on a charity auction back in 2010 when I was in Afghaniland, such rage). I think GW failed us on the ability to produce kits with far more options like are available to heresy custodes. (anyone wanna argue whether or not melta or adrastite spears would've answered new custodes anti tank issues?)
I'd complain about GW fixing this "one day" but lets face it, its been what 20 years since FW became a thing? (I remember them as far back as 2000 but I wasn't here before then), I don't think they'll ever get their together.
Think I'll just try and convert my plastic contemptor if the need arises - I don't see any use for him forthcoming unless there is a significant points drop lined up for him in the codex.
Also I wouldn't hold your breath on the rules, its coming from FW after all
It is a bit disappointing that bikes are so obviously the best choice and GW has made all the other stuff essentially overpriced in comparison to them. I was hoping for more depth in the AC codex. Hopefully FW will bring some much needed diversity, otherwise everyone will just be playing golden white scars.
It's also pretty stupid that this "elite" army - where every individual is a strategist - has no real way to recycle CPs or create more of them; while they pretty much need to rely on them to do their crazy cool things. This is an incredibly dumb approach for an "elite" army and just borderline stupid design philosophy. Larger formations should have less CPs (such as AM) and elite units should have way more CPs to represent their tactical flexibility and agility compared to enormous thundering and bureaucratic warmachines. Why didn't GW EVER address this obvious angle?
So bottom line is, if I don't include at least 2 AM barebones btns, I will just be left with a bland super biker army.
Has anyone built the Sagitarrum squad from Forgeworld?
I'm not a big fan of most resin/plastic hybrids, as I find the gluing to be a faff - especially when it's trying to get arms to line up properly with the weapons. Superglue is unforgiving, and the parts look too small for epoxy glue.
I've got a set of guns, but I was waiting until getting the rest of my Custodes stuff before putting it all together. Also waiting for the special Guardian Blades FW previewed ages ago.
I'm not a big fan of most resin/plastic hybrids, as I find the gluing to be a faff - especially when it's trying to get arms to line up properly with the weapons. Superglue is unforgiving, and the parts look too small for epoxy glue.
I liked the idea of Sagitarrum, but not the price, or the resin. I simply bought up all the AoS Stormcast Judicator bits in my store's bits box. They fit nicely on Custodes models, and if you leave the "bow" bits off the crossbow, it looks remarkably like a highly ornate rifle.
I didn't even know of those. Melta Guardian spears????? That goes a long way to solving Custodes problem with vehicles and ranged anti-armor.
In HH terms one is 12", S5 AP2 armour bane instant death gets hot so in 8th would be 12", S5, AP-3, melta rule without range and plasma blow up. Other is basically 6" melta gun.
1st one might not get 40k rules though as adrhaite weapons are pretty much non-existant in 40k fluff. It was seriously limited in HH due to the effects of it or something to that effect.
I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for a Custodes Upgrade sprue (like Ultramarines, Dark Angels, etc.) Having some stand-out pieces would make your characters much easier to identify.
Speaking of "Local Meta" - Starting to ponder how this army is going to do against my Regular Opponents (note none of us are exactly Comp Players, we play for fun):
Dark Angels Ravenwing - A bit scary, fast and very shooty. Could go badly.
Blood Angels - Bring it on. Though Psychic Dreadnought's gonna be painful. Still, they'll hurt a bit more in melee than most Marines, but the point is they'll be COMING to Melee.
Daemons (ALL the Daemons, Seriously, this dude has EVERY Daemon, different list every week, it's glorious) - Gonna depend, but less scary than most, because they'll be coming to me due to lack of shootiness. Though the mortal wounds 3 of the gods pump out will be scary.
Tau - May as well bring my Eldar if I know I'm playing these guys. A high str Gunline with lots of shots? Tanks with Longstrike and thus super good BS? Mortal Wounds out the wazoo from Missile Pods? Hard Counter to Custodes. (at least the way my buddy makes his lists)
That amounts to my regular opponents. Naturally there are others I might play from time to time, but those are the ones I'll be playing at least once a month or more (Since we try to play every saturday).
Dulahan wrote: Speaking of "Local Meta" - Starting to ponder how this army is going to do against my Regular Opponents (note none of us are exactly Comp Players, we play for fun):
Dark Angels Ravenwing - A bit scary, fast and very shooty. Could go badly.
Blood Angels - Bring it on. Though Psychic Dreadnought's gonna be painful. Still, they'll hurt a bit more in melee than most Marines, but the point is they'll be COMING to Melee.
Daemons (ALL the Daemons, Seriously, this dude has EVERY Daemon, different list every week, it's glorious) - Gonna depend, but less scary than most, because they'll be coming to me due to lack of shootiness. Though the mortal wounds 3 of the gods pump out will be scary.
Tau - May as well bring my Eldar if I know I'm playing these guys. A high str Gunline with lots of shots? Tanks with Longstrike and thus super good BS? Mortal Wounds out the wazoo from Missile Pods? Hard Counter to Custodes. (at least the way my buddy makes his lists)
That amounts to my regular opponents. Naturally there are others I might play from time to time, but those are the ones I'll be playing at least once a month or more (Since we try to play every saturday).
After watching the full codex review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ), I honestly don't know about this army. GW's pricing of units means almost everyone is just going to be running bikes instead of a mix of units.
There is no access to command points (which is outright stupid for an elite army supposed to rely on strats); the strategems have now been entirely spoiled in the codex review and they are incredibly lackluster.
There isn't even an option to advance and charge with the bikes; so even those are kind of "eh" in the feeling unique department. Thus, what we're left with is a bland number of tactical options and the necessity to ally in order to use bland strategems.
For a hyper elite unit, GW really missed a great opportunity here. They're just tough, but definitely not unique or special (other than their lack of options, cool models and insane cost). Anyone has any interesting tactical insights that might pursuade me otherwise?
They're very much a Passion Army, I think. Or meant to supplement a different Imperial force.
For one, I think a small to medium sized detachment in a Primaris Force would be an excellent complementary unit to make up for their lack of dedicated, good melee. A kill squad helping the guard would be brutal. Most Marine lists probably don't need them, but likely aren't hurt by using them either. Mechanicum might see some real benefits by taking a small detachment of them.
EDIT: What Forgeworld stuff gets transferred (whenever that ends up being) is gonna have a big effect on things too.
Gryphonne wrote: After watching the full codex review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMe-kEIBmmQ), I honestly don't know about this army. GW's pricing of units means almost everyone is just going to be running bikes instead of a mix of units.
There is no access to command points (which is outright stupid for an elite army supposed to rely on strats); the strategems have now been entirely spoiled in the codex review and they are incredibly lackluster.
There isn't even an option to advance and charge with the bikes; so even those are kind of "eh" in the feeling unique department. Thus, what we're left with is a bland number of tactical options and the necessity to ally in order to use bland strategems.
For a hyper elite unit, GW really missed a great opportunity here. They're just tough, but definitely not unique or special (other than their lack of options, cool models and insane cost). Anyone has any interesting tactical insights that might pursuade me otherwise?
Foot custodes are flatly non-viable in a competitive environment. Good tournament lists either shoot really hard, have lots of bodies, or are very mobile. Foot custodes have no real delivery option that isn't relying on a 9" deepstrike charge. If your opponent brings screening units (like all tournament players do), fishing for a 9" charge won't even do anything even if you get it. Foot custodes also have no answer to lots of bodies. Their shooting is bizarrely low volume, low rend, but 2 damage? Also, 3 wound models are basically useless in a meta dominated by dark reapers doing 3 damage every time you fail a save. And if your opponent has models that move faster than 6", your foot custodes won't even catch them. Their melee damage is a huge amount of their points cost and they don't have a way to force that melee (contrast this with bloodletter bombs, eversors, and blood angels having access to 3d6 deepstrike charges). And a minimum cost troops squad is 152 points, so you are not getting any CP.
However, bike custodes are pretty beef. Either 90 points for 4W, 4++, 4A or 160 points for 7W, 3++ (relics), 5A. They reroll wounds on charges and reroll all their hits on a 2+ rerolling 1s. And hurricane bolters are always winners. And they have 14" movement so they can contest the midboard and consistently threaten a turn 2 charge. I could see these guys working great with a guard brigade that is stuffed with mortar teams. Mortars and hurricane bolters clear your opponents screen, bikers bring the pain to tough stuff. You can either run 3-5 biker captains to abuse relics and WLTs, or you can run 3 biker squads and a biker captain and use the 5+/5+ from the guard to keep the counter charges coming from your bikes. I do not believe that the rest of the codex is viable in a competitive environment without a guard brigade, or two guard battalions.
EDIT: based on some spreadsheet math, you can have a two detachment list with the following:
2x biker captains, both 3++ 3x3 biker squads 1x1 vexila guy (-1 to hit)
AM brigade 3x commanders, 3x astropaths, 6x guards with mortars, 3x flamer sentinels, and 5x mortar teams
That is a serious list. Sure, the guard squads are going to get massacred, but those bikers are going to hit like trucks and be at -1 to be shot first turn. And you have 13 base CP with 5+/5+. Buy two relics for the bike captains, down to 10CP. Buy relic of lost cadia if you are up against chaos for 9CP. That leaves plenty of CP to do the counter charge strategem every time your opponent tries anything in the charge phase. You have 11 hurricane bolters and 21 mortar tubes, so your opponents screen is going to evaporate. 3 baneblade lists will be tough as you would struggle against T8 shooting. But at the same time, the thing that will kill the baneblades is at -1 to be hit ... so ...
I think you can only buy relics for the warlord's faction, so you couldn't be that flexible.
I'd also say footage, but not Allarus, are O.K. Foot Custodes are trying to be a beta strike army. They need the -1 hit aura and to camp midfield objectives. They could be competitive with allies.
Gryphonne wrote: There is no access to command points (which is outright stupid for an elite army supposed to rely on strats); the strategems have now been entirely spoiled in the codex review and they are incredibly lackluster.
This is pretty much a universal problem for all the elite armies. I think the theory is that elite armies spend their fewer points on more meaningful rolls, but in practice, a Guard Brigade gets more quality rolls anyway and the elite army is really in need of the extra CP. I'm not sure how to actually write a system that works that way, but I do think the Patrol detachment should be worth at least 1 CP if not 2. Trying to make a Battalion happen in an army with troops and HQs that start at 100 points without gear is pretty crippling. Patrols are lot more manageable, but 0 CP just compounds the issue that lead you to a Patrol in the first place.
Gryphonne wrote: There is no access to command points (which is outright stupid for an elite army supposed to rely on strats); the strategems have now been entirely spoiled in the codex review and they are incredibly lackluster.
This is pretty much a universal problem for all the elite armies. I think the theory is that elite armies spend their fewer points on more meaningful rolls, but in practice, a Guard Brigade gets more quality rolls anyway and the elite army is really in need of the extra CP. I'm not sure how to actually write a system that works that way, but I do think the Patrol detachment should be worth at least 1 CP if not 2. Trying to make a Battalion happen in an army with troops and HQs that start at 100 points without gear is pretty crippling. Patrols are lot more manageable, but 0 CP just compounds the issue that lead you to a Patrol in the first place.
I'd suggest reducing the amount of points certain detachments give, and replace those missing CP's by stating you automatically get say 1 or 2 per complete 500 points of game play, so each army gets 4 at 1000pts, 8 at 2000 etc, then your detachments etc give less. Brigades will still reward by giving more CP points than an elite army using a smaller detachment(s), but smaller elite armies will have substantial access to a decent amount of CP's that they struggle to have now.
load.
It hurts everytime.
thats why 
), but at my local store Terminators of any kind haven't performed well at least when I was watching.
)
spend one for a +1 invuln relic on the other captain down to 3...
