WrentheFaceless wrote: I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus
Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus
Brian888 wrote: The Custodes army that's going to be on Warhammer TV this Thursday is reportedly 19 models. If that's pretty standard for a Custodes army, Magnus or Mortarion will eat them alive, especially if you bring along an allied Chaos sorcerer for Death Hex support. With those few models on the table, every lost model is going to hurt really badly.
Confirmed on Facebook...
Warhammer 40,000 wrote:It really, really is! On Thursday night, a Warhammer Live game kicks off using them; it's 2,000 points and the Custodes player has 19 models.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus
Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus
Welp guess ill just have to count how many Magnus will be at LVO then
WrentheFaceless wrote: I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus
Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus
I think people on the internet put TOO much emphasis in the importance of the most HIGH LEVEL competitive scene, assuming is the same for all others "competitive scenes". I agree, the competitive scene of the game is important. But just like the LoL finals aren't the competitive scene for 98% of the player base, what is played in Las Vegas Open and other big GT's isn't ALL that matters.
Thats why most game developers know that you need to do two types of balancing, the one for high end competitive players and the one for more casual-mid of the road players.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus
Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus
Nah, that's wildly overestimating the importance of the tourney scene, who are largely off to one side doing their own thing most players want nothing to do with.
There's really only two factors that matter in that sense: Imbalance leading to someone accidentally taking an excessively strong or weak army to an extent it damages their fun, or the unfortunate spillover where people imitate tournament players without understanding how hostile that is to regular play.
WrentheFaceless wrote: I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus
Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus
I think people on the internet put TOO much emphasis in the importance of the most HIGH LEVEL competitive scene, assuming is the same for all others "competitive scenes". I agree, the competitive scene of the game is important. But just like the LoL finals aren't the competitive scene for 98% of the player base, what is played in Las Vegas Open and other big GT's isn't ALL that matters.
Thats why most game developers know that you need to do two types of balancing, the one for high end competitive players and the one for more casual-mid of the road players.
Of course good balance would benefit from both equally. But then again GW doesn't care about balance as the totally broken unbalanced 8th ed shows.
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
On the question of balance, personally I think it matters at all levels of the game - though as a tournament player maybe I could be counted on to think that.
Basically if fielding any model - such as Magnus - makes you “that guy” then the rules for that model are wrong. That’s because not everyone who wants to field their legion’s primarch is a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie like me. Some people might just like the model, or maybe some kid will get given it for Christmas or something. If one kid gets Given Magnus and their sibling is given... I don’t know, a storm surge or something... then before long you’ll have one happy kid and one sad one.
I guess I’ve never understood what’s so bad about having rules that are fair, from a fluff player’s perspective.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Looks like its a detachment bonus for having a detachment of nothing but custodes.
Its probably so that if you have a mixed detachment with just a single unit of custodes, they won't have 4+ invuls.
Why make rules that incentivise not using certain aspect of the rules?
-OR-
Why make rules that punish you for using certain aspect of the rules?
What I'm trying to say that if the game is already so broken this early into its lifespan that they have to bribe people with powerful rules to stop them from abusing the shonky allies rules, then we're in trouble.
Or they can learn from their unbalanced cherry picking mess that was army building during 6th/7th edition and give pure single codex builds some kind of advantage to counteract the versatility of Imperial soup ones. I'm not jumping to the defense of 8th (never played it) but I see these kinds of rules as a response to the previous buffet style meta of army lists that needed an excel spreadsheet to make sense of the faction and detachments.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
They're not just going to be used against Flyers.
They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.
On the question of balance, personally I think it matters at all levels of the game - though as a tournament player maybe I could be counted on to think that.
Basically if fielding any model - such as Magnus - makes you “that guy” then the rules for that model are wrong. That’s because not everyone who wants to field their legion’s primarch is a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie like me. Some people might just like the model, or maybe some kid will get given it for Christmas or something. If one kid gets Given Magnus and their sibling is given... I don’t know, a storm surge or something... then before long you’ll have one happy kid and one sad one.
I guess I’ve never understood what’s so bad about having rules that are fair, from a fluff player’s perspective.
I wasn't at any moment trying to say that balance isn't important. It is. But whats it a balance factor in ultra-competitive isn't in a casual enviroment. In a casual enviroment is more important to have rules that are fair, that don't make a player feel dirty, or that aren't frustrating to play agaisn't. Is something very subjetive yes, but it exist nonetheles. In ultra-competitive that isn't as important, theres always gonna be a "meta" (yes, theres always a meta, even in ultra balanced games, go to any kind of game and you'll always have 15-20% of that game at minimun "out of the meta"), so as long as a good bunch of stuff is competitive for every faction thats good enough, because it doesn't matter that the second option is 3% less powerfull than the first option. In the highest level of play everyone is gonna play the first option barring some one that wants to play "anti-meta".
Thats why in Super Smash Bros Brawl, 78% of the character used in tournament are Fox, with the second one character most used, Falco, is 18%.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
They're not just going to be used against Flyers.
They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.
Nobody has a screaming need for an autocannon that works better on assault marines.
...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.
The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.
Pretty likely seeing it's referred as LOW choice for Custodes in 30k. That or that was hyper super unlikely to happen but let's fool proof anyway
Primarchs print money, so yeah: When they make a siege of terra campaign book they'll absolutely build an Emperor and put him in a diorama with Horus.
Yeah. Albeit he's not going to be all that usable in game! Point cost is likely rather high so even the minimum game size is going to be preeeetty high. Unpowered Horus is 500 so 2k minimum. If Emperor is even more powerful than warhound then we are easily looking at 4k minimum game. Not often you get to play 4k
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.
On the question of balance, personally I think it matters at all levels of the game - though as a tournament player maybe I could be counted on to think that.
Basically if fielding any model - such as Magnus - makes you “that guy” then the rules for that model are wrong. That’s because not everyone who wants to field their legion’s primarch is a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie like me. Some people might just like the model, or maybe some kid will get given it for Christmas or something. If one kid gets Given Magnus and their sibling is given... I don’t know, a storm surge or something... then before long you’ll have one happy kid and one sad one.
I guess I’ve never understood what’s so bad about having rules that are fair, from a fluff player’s perspective.
I wasn't at any moment trying to say that balance isn't important. It is. But whats it a balance factor in ultra-competitive isn't in a casual enviroment. In a casual enviroment is more important to have rules that are fair, that don't make a player feel dirty, or that aren't frustrating to play agaisn't. Is something very subjetive yes, but it exist nonetheles. In ultra-competitive that isn't as important, theres always gonna be a "meta" (yes, theres always a meta, even in ultra balanced games, go to any kind of game and you'll always have 15-20% of that game at minimun "out of the meta"), so as long as a good bunch of stuff is competitive for every faction thats good enough, because it doesn't matter that the second option is 3% less powerfull than the first option. In the highest level of play everyone is gonna play the first option barring some one that wants to play "anti-meta".
Thats why in Super Smash Bros Brawl, 78% of the character used in tournament are Fox, with the second one character most used, Falco, is 18%.
I gotta disagree with your posts in this thread. I was Master league in SC2 and rank similarly in many other games. You balance at the top level and it works for the lower level. You do NOT balance them separately (and doing so is not Riot or Blizzard's actual method). Anybody who is not at the top tier can overcome a problem unit or comp by "getting good", as it were, and improving to where they can handle that.
My local meta for 40k is absolute, cutthroat competitive meta. Every match is practice for a GT and even our 'narrative' campaigns still run strong lists. They just have a story context. If Custodes aren't competitive I literally cannot justify buying them.
Your idea to make them "balanced" (not sure what that even means since it's a relative term) and to nerf the rest is nice, but in practice almost never done. You have only to look to those e-sports for reference. Nerfs happen, but buffing units is the preferred method. And let's face it, GW will not realistically have the stomach for large scale nerfs so that's a pipe dream. Stuff needs to come in competitive and the rest buffed.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.
But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.
Galas wrote: I can understand that. But I think the solution is to make Custodes a balanced army, and then nerf the outliers out there. If every new army needs to be more powerfull to compete, then we enter in power creep territory.
And as much as people complain about Horde Armies being totally OP... this is something new of 8th edition. is not like Hordes where the hotness in 5th, 6th and 7th.
And I Know, I know... the only meta that matters is the ultra-competitive big GT internet meta. But in my regional meta (Not local because I play in all of Galicia) even having guys that spam Dark Reapers, Magnus+Brimstones, etc... they are in a minority.
The solution as you call it doesn't exist because GW doesn't do balance. People have nothing to cling to but the hope that GW's power roulette hits their army just the right way so that they get to enjoy a reasonably powerful army with diverse options without being an overpowered mess nobody wants to play against.
That's the real trouble. As you say, there shouldn't be outliers, but GW produces them in both directions and the gap between them is pretty wide. Hordes weren't the hotness before but apparently they are now. Reshuffling the power structure of the game is all GW ever achieves with edition changes. So sure, you can go about this saying hordes deserve their time in the sun, but the next reshuffle will come around and the problem just keeps persisting: GW chooses novelty over balance because it's easier to achieve and can be repeated indefinitely.
As a longtime Deathwing player I have a pretty good idea how Custodes will shake out. And I'm talking purely on a casual level here because I don't give a damn about competitive tournament stuff. Used to be a time when you had the odds stacked against you in most games with a couple of games that favored you. As an extreme army, Deathwing performance depended a lot on match-up. Then GW figured guns needed to be more powerful and plentiful with more shots and better penetration. Terminator armor became even worse than it already was. We're still subject to this design paradigm today, so I have no doubt that unless Custodes who share many of the Deathwing's weaknesses get one of those awful mass first turn charge options, there's not going to stand up to the high strength, high volume fire power that's available to many armies these days.
So yeah, I can disregard the whole competitive nonsense because I have the benefit of playing in what's pretty much gaming utopia. Nice, relaxed, casual gaming with friends who don't have to pull out net lists to prove something. And you know what? Still nobody enjoys playing games that are a foregone conclusion because GW can't minimize the power gap between armies. Because what's the point for me setting up my army if I get blasted off the board on turn two? What's the point for my opponent if he blasts me off the table on turn 2?
So you'll have to excuse me if I don't see asking for useful tools in one's army as calls to make that army the most powerful to date and this essentially asking for power creep. It's asking to close the power gap.
I'm not at all impressed with the missiles, but the movement and countercharge are really incredible. I'm very torn on what I'm wanting to do here. Excited to read the codex, lol
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
They're not just going to be used against Flyers.
They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.
The Melta shots are better at damaging a Flyrant and and better vs Crisis Suits. only if the Crisis Suits has drones nearby the flakk is a bit better.
Edit: my point about differnt points costs is irrelevant.
the_scotsman wrote: ...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.
The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.
Weird, isnt it, that gw seems unable to do the most basic probability calculations.
Lots of the commonly-used flyers are t7 and have 3+ saves, are hard to hit but have no invulnerable saves. If the bikes are moving then the melta one does an average of 1.55 wounds. The “AA” option does 0.66. That’s less than half as much damage from the dedicated AA version. Lame.
Contemptor Mortis dreads provide great anti-vehicle shooting. It might be a plan to get a few of them in a spearhead, maybe with someone like greyfax as an HQ for a bit of psychic defence. You could paint them gold and even use the custodes contemptor models if you wanted.
Alternatively, wait for FW to bring out rules for their stuff. The Caladius or Telemon could probably bring down a plane or two.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
They're not just going to be used against Flyers.
They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.
The Melta shots are better at damaging a Flyrant and and better vs Crisis Suits. only if the Crisis Suits has drones nearby the flakk is a bit better. so if the flakk is not way cheaper there is no point in taking it. because the melta version is much more versatile.
It's a missile, friend. You select the firing mode. You don't pay for both.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
They're not just going to be used against Flyers.
They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.
The Melta shots are better at damaging a Flyrant and and better vs Crisis Suits. only if the Crisis Suits has drones nearby the flakk is a bit better. so if the flakk is not way cheaper there is no point in taking it. because the melta version is much more versatile.
It's a missile, friend. You select the firing mode. You don't pay for both.
Ah yes you're right forgot about that. So sometimes it will better to use the flakk profile.
On the question of balance, personally I think it matters at all levels of the game - though as a tournament player maybe I could be counted on to think that.
Basically if fielding any model - such as Magnus - makes you “that guy” then the rules for that model are wrong. That’s because not everyone who wants to field their legion’s primarch is a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie like me. Some people might just like the model, or maybe some kid will get given it for Christmas or something. If one kid gets Given Magnus and their sibling is given... I don’t know, a storm surge or something... then before long you’ll have one happy kid and one sad one.
I guess I’ve never understood what’s so bad about having rules that are fair, from a fluff player’s perspective.
I wasn't at any moment trying to say that balance isn't important. It is. But whats it a balance factor in ultra-competitive isn't in a casual enviroment. In a casual enviroment is more important to have rules that are fair, that don't make a player feel dirty, or that aren't frustrating to play agaisn't. Is something very subjetive yes, but it exist nonetheles. In ultra-competitive that isn't as important, theres always gonna be a "meta" (yes, theres always a meta, even in ultra balanced games, go to any kind of game and you'll always have 15-20% of that game at minimun "out of the meta"), so as long as a good bunch of stuff is competitive for every faction thats good enough, because it doesn't matter that the second option is 3% less powerfull than the first option. In the highest level of play everyone is gonna play the first option barring some one that wants to play "anti-meta".
Thats why in Super Smash Bros Brawl, 78% of the character used in tournament are Fox, with the second one character most used, Falco, is 18%.
I gotta disagree with your posts in this thread. I was Master league in SC2 and rank similarly in many other games. You balance at the top level and it works for the lower level. You do NOT balance them separately (and doing so is not Riot or Blizzard's actual method). Anybody who is not at the top tier can overcome a problem unit or comp by "getting good", as it were, and improving to where they can handle that.
My local meta for 40k is absolute, cutthroat competitive meta. Every match is practice for a GT and even our 'narrative' campaigns still run strong lists. They just have a story context. If Custodes aren't competitive I literally cannot justify buying them.
Your idea to make them "balanced" (not sure what that even means since it's a relative term) and to nerf the rest is nice, but in practice almost never done. You have only to look to those e-sports for reference. Nerfs happen, but buffing units is the preferred method. And let's face it, GW will not realistically have the stomach for large scale nerfs so that's a pipe dream. Stuff needs to come in competitive and the rest buffed.
This will be my last post in this tangent because this is offtopic. But I disagree with your disagreement. Using a blizzard game has an example, Heroes of the Storm (His game that I most play after stopping playing WoW), they actually have the "casual" meta and the "competitive" meta as two different things to balance heroes around. One example is the change to Stealth heroes. In competitive meta they where useless, nobody used them because everybody was capable of spotting them even in invisible mode. But in casual play they where totally unfun to play. Basically where characters to punish noobs to the game. So they where changed not because they weren't competitive in the high leagues (They still aren't). They where changed because their game mechanics where sensed as "toxic".
Other example is Medivh, a hero so complicated that is busted in competitive but totally useless in casual, because is a hero totally reliable of the rest of your team responding. And they don't change it even being useless in casual play, because they know that if they make him viable in Casual play, it will make him totally overpowered in competitive meta. Other example was a change to how a Muradin talent interact with his jump, giving him armour. It was a talent alwais picked in competitive meta, but nobody in casual took it because it was considered "bad" for the noobish. So they changed it to make it usable for "casual" play without making it "busted" for competitive leagues.
What I was trying to say with all of this related to Warhammer40k and Custodes? Balance is good. But the mantra that "Balance to the high competitive leagues and everyone will benefit from that" isn't actually true. The "casual" crow and the "competitive" crown are two separated groups with totally different mindsets to what they want from their games. That your solution to casuals having problems in a competitive enviroment is to "git gud" shows that you have a "competitive" crown mindset. Is not a bad thing of course, but this is exactly what I'm saying when I talk about the internet people putting ALL of the emphasis in the most high level tournament level of play.
But I agree with you. I don't think GW will have the guts to have big nerfs across factions like Blizzard did with the Support nerf in HOTS.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.
But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.
The jetbikes are? Was that spoiled somewhere? I've seen BS2+ on the vehicles and the Shield-Captain, but index Custodians are still BS3+ and I'm not expecting GW to put across-the-board BS2+ down given how rare it is generally.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.
But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.
The jetbikes are? Was that spoiled somewhere? I've seen BS2+ on the vehicles and the Shield-Captain, but index Custodians are still BS3+ and I'm not expecting GW to put across-the-board BS2+ down given how rare it is generally.
"Custodian Guard themselves have received a variety of discreet improvements in the new codex. For one, they’re now BS 2+, allowing them to get a little more out of their surprisingly powerful attacks with their Guardian Spears."
2nd preview article. I suppose it's possible the bikes are worse shots than the line troops, but I doubt it.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.
But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.
The jetbikes are? Was that spoiled somewhere? I've seen BS2+ on the vehicles and the Shield-Captain, but index Custodians are still BS3+ and I'm not expecting GW to put across-the-board BS2+ down given how rare it is generally.
They have confirmed that Custodes will be BS2+ across the board, even basic Custodes. And the bikes are heavy, so the +1 to hit will be usefull even agaisn't targets without the -1 if you are moving (Being bikes you are gonna move all the time)
Galas wrote: ...Balance is good. But the mantra that "Balance to the high competitive leagues and everyone will benefit from that" isn't actually true...
Addendum: Balancing everything against high-tier competitive things only works if you actually balance EVERYTHING that way. If you only balance new stuff around high-tier competitive things without fixing things that aren't you may be expanding the tournament meta but you're also taking the chunk of things you sell that aren't competitive and shoving them further to the side where nobody will buy or play them because any random scrub showing up with a shiny golden division of giant infantrymen or a bizzare bird thing with horned nipples can blast them off the table without effort.
Further addendum: If you only attempt to balance the game by buffing things all you'll produce is power creep/new-army-wins. Things like Dark Reapers/Magnus are as much a problem for the competitive scene as they are for casual players, because they heavily restrict what you can and can't play; if you assume that the best units in the game are "normal" and use them as a pivot to balance other things you'll inevitably end up after some error with something better, which then has to be the "new normal" again because you're balancing everything against the best units in the game, and you keep squeezing the tournament tier into a new set of armies that are just a bit more powerful than the last set. What you should be doing is finding mediocre things and using them as a benchmark for nerfing units that are too powerful and for buffing bad units at the same time.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
They're not just going to be used against Flyers.
They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.
The Melta shots are better at damaging a Flyrant and and better vs Crisis Suits. only if the Crisis Suits has drones nearby the flakk is a bit better. so if the flakk is not way cheaper there is no point in taking it. because the melta version is much more versatile.
It's a missile, friend. You select the firing mode. You don't pay for both.
Ah yes you're right forgot about that. So sometimes it will better to use the flakk profile.
Not really. The flak profile is worse against almost everything - and definitely against the flyers that it’s intended to kill. If you want to kill gun drones then sure, the flakk missile is marginally better at that.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.
But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.
The jetbikes are? Was that spoiled somewhere? I've seen BS2+ on the vehicles and the Shield-Captain, but index Custodians are still BS3+ and I'm not expecting GW to put across-the-board BS2+ down given how rare it is generally.
Actually yesterday’s preview stated that standard Custodian Guards would be BS2+, so it’s reasonable to expect that the jet bikes will be as well.
The jet bike stratagem to charge in the opponent’s turn is phenomenally powerful. It lets a unit fight twice a turn, with rerolls to wound from its spears. Your opponent has to either charge the bikers himself to prevent this or dedicate really significant firepower to them, while your foot-slogging guys leg it up the field.
It’ll be interesting to see how many points these jetbikers cost. I think they’ll be right at the top of most people’s target priority list, so might not last all that long. They’ll also tend to go outside of the rumoured -1 to hit bubble from the vexillas. At a guess I’d put the price of the missile launchers around 25+ points, and if that’s the case it might be better to go for hurricane bolters on what is, after all, kind of a suicide unit.
On the question of balance, personally I think it matters at all levels of the game - though as a tournament player maybe I could be counted on to think that.
Basically if fielding any model - such as Magnus - makes you “that guy” then the rules for that model are wrong. That’s because not everyone who wants to field their legion’s primarch is a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie like me. Some people might just like the model, or maybe some kid will get given it for Christmas or something. If one kid gets Given Magnus and their sibling is given... I don’t know, a storm surge or something... then before long you’ll have one happy kid and one sad one.
I guess I’ve never understood what’s so bad about having rules that are fair, from a fluff player’s perspective.
I wasn't at any moment trying to say that balance isn't important. It is. But whats it a balance factor in ultra-competitive isn't in a casual enviroment. In a casual enviroment is more important to have rules that are fair, that don't make a player feel dirty, or that aren't frustrating to play agaisn't. Is something very subjetive yes, but it exist nonetheles. In ultra-competitive that isn't as important, theres always gonna be a "meta" (yes, theres always a meta, even in ultra balanced games, go to any kind of game and you'll always have 15-20% of that game at minimun "out of the meta"), so as long as a good bunch of stuff is competitive for every faction thats good enough, because it doesn't matter that the second option is 3% less powerfull than the first option. In the highest level of play everyone is gonna play the first option barring some one that wants to play "anti-meta".
Thats why in Super Smash Bros Brawl, 78% of the character used in tournament are Fox, with the second one character most used, Falco, is 18%.
I gotta disagree with your posts in this thread. I was Master league in SC2 and rank similarly in many other games. You balance at the top level and it works for the lower level. You do NOT balance them separately (and doing so is not Riot or Blizzard's actual method). Anybody who is not at the top tier can overcome a problem unit or comp by "getting good", as it were, and improving to where they can handle that.
My local meta for 40k is absolute, cutthroat competitive meta. Every match is practice for a GT and even our 'narrative' campaigns still run strong lists. They just have a story context. If Custodes aren't competitive I literally cannot justify buying them.
Your idea to make them "balanced" (not sure what that even means since it's a relative term) and to nerf the rest is nice, but in practice almost never done. You have only to look to those e-sports for reference. Nerfs happen, but buffing units is the preferred method. And let's face it, GW will not realistically have the stomach for large scale nerfs so that's a pipe dream. Stuff needs to come in competitive and the rest buffed.
This will be my last post in this tangent because this is offtopic. But I disagree with your disagreement. Using a blizzard game has an example, Heroes of the Storm (His game that I most play after stopping playing WoW), they actually have the "casual" meta and the "competitive" meta as two different things to balance heroes around. One example is the change to Stealth heroes. In competitive meta they where useless, nobody used them because everybody was capable of spotting them even in invisible mode. But in casual play they where totally unfun to play. Basically where characters to punish noobs to the game. So they where changed not because they weren't competitive in the high leagues (They still aren't). They where changed because their game mechanics where sensed as "toxic".
Other example is Medivh, a hero so complicated that is busted in competitive but totally useless in casual, because is a hero totally reliable of the rest of your team responding. And they don't change it even being useless in casual play, because they know that if they make him viable in Casual play, it will make him totally overpowered in competitive meta. Other example was a change to how a Muradin talent interact with his jump, giving him armour. It was a talent alwais picked in competitive meta, but nobody in casual took it because it was considered "bad" for the noobish. So they changed it to make it usable for "casual" play without making it "busted" for competitive leagues.
What I was trying to say with all of this related to Warhammer40k and Custodes? Balance is good. But the mantra that "Balance to the high competitive leagues and everyone will benefit from that" isn't actually true. The "casual" crow and the "competitive" crown are two separated groups with totally different mindsets to what they want from their games. That your solution to casuals having problems in a competitive enviroment is to "git gud" shows that you have a "competitive" crown mindset. Is not a bad thing of course, but this is exactly what I'm saying when I talk about the internet people putting ALL of the emphasis in the most high level tournament level of play.
But I agree with you. I don't think GW will have the guts to have big nerfs across factions like Blizzard did with the Support nerf in HOTS.
League of legends has this same issue, champions like Azir and Ryze have abysmal winrates in low level leagues but are auto pick-ban at higher skill levels, Ryze has even been completely overhauled like...7 or 8 times for this exact reason. You see this a lot in warhammer, just with a slight twist. We all know what the 'statistically most powerful' builds of each faction are(for the most part) and yet we can see pretty much constant evidence of pretty much the same imperial guard list coming in 1st and 101st at tournaments and other such similar things.
Galas wrote: ...Balance is good. But the mantra that "Balance to the high competitive leagues and everyone will benefit from that" isn't actually true...
Addendum: Balancing everything against high-tier competitive things only works if you actually balance EVERYTHING that way. If you only balance new stuff around high-tier competitive things without fixing things that aren't you may be expanding the tournament meta but you're also taking the chunk of things you sell that aren't competitive and shoving them further to the side where nobody will buy or play them because any random scrub showing up with a shiny golden division of giant infantrymen or a bizzare bird thing with horned nipples can blast them off the table without effort.
Further addendum: If you only attempt to balance the game by buffing things all you'll produce is power creep/new-army-wins. Things like Dark Reapers/Magnus are as much a problem for the competitive scene as they are for casual players, because they heavily restrict what you can and can't play; if you assume that the best units in the game are "normal" and use them as a pivot to balance other things you'll inevitably end up after some error with something better, which then has to be the "new normal" again because you're balancing everything against the best units in the game, and you keep squeezing the tournament tier into a new set of armies that are just a bit more powerful than the last set. What you should be doing is finding mediocre things and using them as a benchmark for nerfing units that are too powerful and for buffing bad units at the same time.
This was exactly my point. Thank for putting it much more clear than myself.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
They're not just going to be used against Flyers.
They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.
The Melta shots are better at damaging a Flyrant and and better vs Crisis Suits. only if the Crisis Suits has drones nearby the flakk is a bit better. so if the flakk is not way cheaper there is no point in taking it. because the melta version is much more versatile.
It's a missile, friend. You select the firing mode. You don't pay for both.
Ah yes you're right forgot about that. So sometimes it will better to use the flakk profile.
Not really. The flak profile is worse against almost everything - and definitely against the flyers that it’s intended to kill. If you want to kill gun drones then sure, the flakk missile is marginally better at that.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.
But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.
The jetbikes are? Was that spoiled somewhere? I've seen BS2+ on the vehicles and the Shield-Captain, but index Custodians are still BS3+ and I'm not expecting GW to put across-the-board BS2+ down given how rare it is generally.
Actually yesterday’s preview stated that standard Custodian Guards would be BS2+, so it’s reasonable to expect that the jet bikes will be as well.
The jet bike stratagem to charge in the opponent’s turn is phenomenally powerful. It lets a unit fight twice a turn, with rerolls to wound from its spears. Your opponent has to either charge the bikers himself to prevent this or dedicate really significant firepower to them, while your foot-slogging guys leg it up the field.
It’ll be interesting to see how many points these jetbikers cost. I think they’ll be right at the top of most people’s target priority list, so might not last all that long. They’ll also tend to go outside of the rumoured -1 to hit bubble from the vexillas. At a guess I’d put the price of the missile launchers around 25+ points, and if that’s the case it might be better to go for hurricane bolters on what is, after all, kind of a suicide unit.
Hurricane bolters actually have pretty similar damage output overall against anything that isn't T8 at the 12" range a 14" move unit shouldn't have any problem hitting, and are obviously significantly better against anything with 1 wound(both usually do enough damage to kill a 1 wound model but the Hurricane bolter at least has the possibility to do more.) Personally, the only time I can see taking the missle launcher over the HuB is in a pure custodes list due to their lack of mid-range high damage firepower. Also the bikes will be amazing allies for area-denialing deepstrikers.
ERJAK wrote: You see this a lot in warhammer, just with a slight twist. We all know what the 'statistically most powerful' builds of each faction are(for the most part) and yet we can see pretty much constant evidence of pretty much the same imperial guard list coming in 1st and 101st at tournaments and other such similar things.
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Well, 101st at a given somewhat competitive tournament is probably still in the top 1% of 40K lists overall. Just like the guy or girl coming in last at the Olympics is probably still in pretty good physical shape against the entire spectrum.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
They're not just going to be used against Flyers.
They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.
The Melta shots are better at damaging a Flyrant and and better vs Crisis Suits. only if the Crisis Suits has drones nearby the flakk is a bit better. so if the flakk is not way cheaper there is no point in taking it. because the melta version is much more versatile.
It's a missile, friend. You select the firing mode. You don't pay for both.
Ah yes you're right forgot about that. So sometimes it will better to use the flakk profile.
Not really. The flak profile is worse against almost everything - and definitely against the flyers that it’s intended to kill. If you want to kill gun drones then sure, the flakk missile is marginally better at that.
changemod wrote: I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.
I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.
But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.
The jetbikes are? Was that spoiled somewhere? I've seen BS2+ on the vehicles and the Shield-Captain, but index Custodians are still BS3+ and I'm not expecting GW to put across-the-board BS2+ down given how rare it is generally.
Actually yesterday’s preview stated that standard Custodian Guards would be BS2+, so it’s reasonable to expect that the jet bikes will be as well.
The jet bike stratagem to charge in the opponent’s turn is phenomenally powerful. It lets a unit fight twice a turn, with rerolls to wound from its spears. Your opponent has to either charge the bikers himself to prevent this or dedicate really significant firepower to them, while your foot-slogging guys leg it up the field.
It’ll be interesting to see how many points these jetbikers cost. I think they’ll be right at the top of most people’s target priority list, so might not last all that long. They’ll also tend to go outside of the rumoured -1 to hit bubble from the vexillas. At a guess I’d put the price of the missile launchers around 25+ points, and if that’s the case it might be better to go for hurricane bolters on what is, after all, kind of a suicide unit.
Hurricane bolters actually have pretty similar damage output overall against anything that isn't T8 at the 12" range a 14" move unit shouldn't have any problem hitting, and are obviously significantly better against anything with 1 wound(both usually do enough damage to kill a 1 wound model but the Hurricane bolter at least has the possibility to do more.) Personally, the only time I can see taking the missle launcher over the HuB is in a pure custodes list due to their lack of mid-range high damage firepower. Also the bikes will be amazing allies for area-denialing deepstrikers.
Good point on the bolters probably being better against most things anyway. Hurricane bolters are great, and offer a much-needed weapon against hordes.
Sunny Side Up, loads of people enter tournaments - not only the top 1% of players. 101st would definitely not put you in the top 1% of players unless you’d had a really bad run of games.
Sunny Side Up, loads of people enter tournaments - not only the top 1% of players. 101st would definitely not put you in the top 1% of players unless you’d had a really bad run of games.
But they probably still bring their "tournament list", not their all-Kroot list or their footslogging Dark Eldar Haemunculi list or whatever. So the sample of lists, not players, is still skewed and not representative of "the game" against which any given unit or army needs to be balanced by the playtesters.
And the percentage is irrelevant too. Even if tournament lists are the top 50% instead of just top 1% of lists (not players), it's still a skewed sample and thus irrelevant at best or misleading at worst for balancing things in the entire game.
Pretty likely seeing it's referred as LOW choice for Custodes in 30k. That or that was hyper super unlikely to happen but let's fool proof anyway
Primarchs print money, so yeah: When they make a siege of terra campaign book they'll absolutely build an Emperor and put him in a diorama with Horus.
Yeah. Albeit he's not going to be all that usable in game! Point cost is likely rather high so even the minimum game size is going to be preeeetty high. Unpowered Horus is 500 so 2k minimum. If Emperor is even more powerful than warhound then we are easily looking at 4k minimum game. Not often you get to play 4k
Pretty likely seeing it's referred as LOW choice for Custodes in 30k. That or that was hyper super unlikely to happen but let's fool proof anyway
Primarchs print money, so yeah: When they make a siege of terra campaign book they'll absolutely build an Emperor and put him in a diorama with Horus.
Yeah. Albeit he's not going to be all that usable in game! Point cost is likely rather high so even the minimum game size is going to be preeeetty high. Unpowered Horus is 500 so 2k minimum. If Emperor is even more powerful than warhound then we are easily looking at 4k minimum game. Not often you get to play 4k
2000 points is standard size game, no?
Well 30k it's 2k-3k(game works best at 2.5k-3k). But yeah with Emperor likely having 3k-4k(as very cautious. Could be 5 digit game size ala warlord as well!) as minimum game size you can actually legally FIELD him he's not going to be all that usable. Much like warlord titan that's going to likely require 12k game to even legally field! (unlike 40k 30k is much stricter with big LOW's. Individual LOW can cost max 25% of game size and you can generally have only 1 LOW period except stuff like baneblade type of things you can field max 3 or knights who can be fielded as army of it's own)
TwilightSparkles wrote: It's likely Horus gets a newer version before the end including a newer profile to reflect him post Molech.
True that. Who's likely also usable in 3k-4k or even up to 12k games as minimum (12k assumes they are around warlord in terms of strenght and thus points) So much for Emperor/boosted Horus being broken tournament crushing monster.
Going to be must-buy anyway just for fun. And likely bit more affordable model for once a year apoc games than 1500€ warlord (still want that titan as well...Until FW releases Imperator at which point the "one day would like to buy that model" model is going to get a new target
Pretty likely seeing it's referred as LOW choice for Custodes in 30k. That or that was hyper super unlikely to happen but let's fool proof anyway
Primarchs print money, so yeah: When they make a siege of terra campaign book they'll absolutely build an Emperor and put him in a diorama with Horus.
Yeah. Albeit he's not going to be all that usable in game! Point cost is likely rather high so even the minimum game size is going to be preeeetty high. Unpowered Horus is 500 so 2k minimum. If Emperor is even more powerful than warhound then we are easily looking at 4k minimum game. Not often you get to play 4k
2000 points is standard size game, no?
We play 3k most commonly, Heresy only gets interesting at 2k and above.
We have moved to 5k games recently as well though it starts to top out at 6k.
Doesn't take that much longer to play a 2k through to 5k game once you know what you are doing
You guys are talking across each other about different games.
2k is pretty standard for 40k events, and that tends to trickle down to club games.
Anything over 2k Goes for 30k. And FW assigns points costs at random in 30k anyway, so it’s fairly meaningless.
I haven’t played 30k since 8th edition dropped, or bought any forgeworld stuff. There was a decent-sized 30k community at my club last year but I don’t know if a single game has been played there in the last 6 months. Elsewhere I hear about 30k going from strength to strength. Funny how different areas have reacted so differently to the new edition.
Brian888 wrote: The Custodes army that's going to be on Warhammer TV this Thursday is reportedly 19 models. If that's pretty standard for a Custodes army, Magnus or Mortarion will eat them alive, especially if you bring along an allied Chaos sorcerer for Death Hex support. With those few models on the table, every lost model is going to hurt really badly.
Confirmed on Facebook...
Warhammer 40,000 wrote:It really, really is! On Thursday night, a Warhammer Live game kicks off using them; it's 2,000 points and the Custodes player has 19 models.
If this is indicative of the average Custodes army, it looks like they may suffer from the same CP issue Necrons have (though without all the other issues). Assuming at least some of those 19 models are Landraiders, we can't be looking at more than maybe 2 detachments in that army. So (optimistically) 7 Command points?
Mandragola wrote: You guys are talking across each other about different games.
2k is pretty standard for 40k events, and that tends to trickle down to club games.
Anything over 2k Goes for 30k. And FW assigns points costs at random in 30k anyway, so it’s fairly meaningless.
I haven’t played 30k since 8th edition dropped, or bought any forgeworld stuff. There was a decent-sized 30k community at my club last year but I don’t know if a single game has been played there in the last 6 months. Elsewhere I hear about 30k going from strength to strength. Funny how different areas have reacted so differently to the new edition.
Question was about Emperor though who isn't going to be 40k model.
As for point assigment...Lot more logical than GW studio. Unlike GWFW can actually make game that has semblance of balance. If you want balanced points get FW to do it and give reasonable time to them.
Don't think I could justify taking a land raider, though I'm sure GW will see it differently in their battle report.
How the battle report goes depends on if the thousand sons player is enough of a jerk to take Magnus, otherwise things are probably fairly even as elite-slaying is the one area thousand sons excel.
So I'm going to spoiler a little rant about why balancing from the top works in 40k where it fails in other games, as it is kinda off topic.
Spoiler:
I find the discussion about balancing at different levels a bit odd as the issue mentioned, hordes being really cost effective relative to more elite armies, is an issue at all levels of play. It was noticed very early on by even casual players, and even local tournaments often have such armies as the norm at this point.
The biggest issue dividing high level tournament play and normal play is how common soup lists are. Which is an issue, but mainly slants the game towards the larger factions with more diversity of models and units in general, to take advantage of imbalanced units or types of units. Which again, is actually useful for balancing casual play as it is easier to pick out problematic units that may not have been as obviously broken in the context of their own army (conscripts and brimstones both come to mind as previous examples).
The biggest problem with comparing warhammer to a moba is that it's way easier for a casual player to abuse something he read about a high level player doing in warhammer than it is in most mobas. Again, a fairly simple system that doesn't put a ton of pressure on for quick choices limits the gap. Their are few if any tournament lists so complicated a casual player would not be best served by using it over whatever they came up with, in marked contrast to the examples. Warhammer 40k doesn't have the sort of skill gap that requires balancing at two different levels.
They've also used balancing from the top to fix two majorly imbalanced units, conscripts and brimstones, through nerfs, thus lessening the power of hordes somewhat. So the idea they aren't willing to make extensive nerfs as needed is again fairly incorrect.
As for the news, I think the bikes look fairly solid. A flying unit is one of the few that can pull off mixed melee and ranges this edition, and the melts warheads do help fill a niche that was somewhat lacking. The new land raider stratagem is also interesting, ignoring penalties can really screw over some strategies and armies, might help push back on that being so prevalent.
On the question of balance, personally I think it matters at all levels of the game - though as a tournament player maybe I could be counted on to think that.
Basically if fielding any model - such as Magnus - makes you “that guy” then the rules for that model are wrong. That’s because not everyone who wants to field their legion’s primarch is a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie like me. Some people might just like the model, or maybe some kid will get given it for Christmas or something. If one kid gets Given Magnus and their sibling is given... I don’t know, a storm surge or something... then before long you’ll have one happy kid and one sad one.
I guess I’ve never understood what’s so bad about having rules that are fair, from a fluff player’s perspective.
I wasn't at any moment trying to say that balance isn't important. It is. But whats it a balance factor in ultra-competitive isn't in a casual enviroment. In a casual enviroment is more important to have rules that are fair, that don't make a player feel dirty, or that aren't frustrating to play agaisn't. Is something very subjetive yes, but it exist nonetheles. In ultra-competitive that isn't as important, theres always gonna be a "meta" (yes, theres always a meta, even in ultra balanced games, go to any kind of game and you'll always have 15-20% of that game at minimun "out of the meta"), so as long as a good bunch of stuff is competitive for every faction thats good enough, because it doesn't matter that the second option is 3% less powerfull than the first option. In the highest level of play everyone is gonna play the first option barring some one that wants to play "anti-meta".
Thats why in Super Smash Bros Brawl, 78% of the character used in tournament are Fox, with the second one character most used, Falco, is 18%.
I gotta disagree with your posts in this thread. I was Master league in SC2 and rank similarly in many other games. You balance at the top level and it works for the lower level. You do NOT balance them separately (and doing so is not Riot or Blizzard's actual method). Anybody who is not at the top tier can overcome a problem unit or comp by "getting good", as it were, and improving to where they can handle that.
My local meta for 40k is absolute, cutthroat competitive meta. Every match is practice for a GT and even our 'narrative' campaigns still run strong lists. They just have a story context. If Custodes aren't competitive I literally cannot justify buying them.
Your idea to make them "balanced" (not sure what that even means since it's a relative term) and to nerf the rest is nice, but in practice almost never done. You have only to look to those e-sports for reference. Nerfs happen, but buffing units is the preferred method. And let's face it, GW will not realistically have the stomach for large scale nerfs so that's a pipe dream. Stuff needs to come in competitive and the rest buffed.
This will be my last post in this tangent because this is offtopic. But I disagree with your disagreement. Using a blizzard game has an example, Heroes of the Storm (His game that I most play after stopping playing WoW), they actually have the "casual" meta and the "competitive" meta as two different things to balance heroes around. One example is the change to Stealth heroes. In competitive meta they where useless, nobody used them because everybody was capable of spotting them even in invisible mode. But in casual play they where totally unfun to play. Basically where characters to punish noobs to the game. So they where changed not because they weren't competitive in the high leagues (They still aren't). They where changed because their game mechanics where sensed as "toxic".
Other example is Medivh, a hero so complicated that is busted in competitive but totally useless in casual, because is a hero totally reliable of the rest of your team responding. And they don't change it even being useless in casual play, because they know that if they make him viable in Casual play, it will make him totally overpowered in competitive meta. Other example was a change to how a Muradin talent interact with his jump, giving him armour. It was a talent alwais picked in competitive meta, but nobody in casual took it because it was considered "bad" for the noobish. So they changed it to make it usable for "casual" play without making it "busted" for competitive leagues.
What I was trying to say with all of this related to Warhammer40k and Custodes? Balance is good. But the mantra that "Balance to the high competitive leagues and everyone will benefit from that" isn't actually true. The "casual" crow and the "competitive" crown are two separated groups with totally different mindsets to what they want from their games. That your solution to casuals having problems in a competitive enviroment is to "git gud" shows that you have a "competitive" crown mindset. Is not a bad thing of course, but this is exactly what I'm saying when I talk about the internet people putting ALL of the emphasis in the most high level tournament level of play.
But I agree with you. I don't think GW will have the guts to have big nerfs across factions like Blizzard did with the Support nerf in HOTS.
You're not talking about balance here, you're talking about fun. It's not a news flash that players, particularly more casual ones, do not like punish mechanics. Thus, you see the removal of those from MOBA's while they still flourish in fighters. Thus your 'toxic' champs wern't changed for balance, they are changed for being "anti-fun". Those are not the same thing.
And complicated characters/stratagems are left that way. Notice Azir is still plenty complicated in LoL. So only high level play can really make use of him? So what? Doesn't bother the player base at large and certainly doesn't bother Riot. In SC2, medivac-drop mechanics make it MUCH harder, mechanically, to play high level Terran than Protoss, yet Blizzard does not change this. You're just expected to grow, practice and get better.
Acknowledging that sometimes people lose because of skill at the game and not just mechanics is not what is normally associated with "git gud". Think of it this way, if you're balancing, everything falls into three possible slots: skill, mechanic, random chance. You can't balance chance; just determine how big a role you want it to play. You also can't balance player skill; just change how big a role it has in a game. Mechanics are all you can actually balance by adjusting them.
So when Army A stomps Army B we have to ask: why? Was it skill? Well leave that be, most people considerable desirable for skill to determine the outcome. Was it chance? Well, if it's a game of chance then that's O.K. too. Was it mechanics? THAT'S where you balance. All armies should be equal on mechanics.
SilverAlien wrote: So I'm going to spoiler a little rant about why balancing from the top works in 40k where it fails in other games, as it is kinda off topic.
Spoiler:
I find the discussion about balancing at different levels a bit odd as the issue mentioned, hordes being really cost effective relative to more elite armies, is an issue at all levels of play. It was noticed very early on by even casual players, and even local tournaments often have such armies as the norm at this point.
The biggest issue dividing high level tournament play and normal play is how common soup lists are. Which is an issue, but mainly slants the game towards the larger factions with more diversity of models and units in general, to take advantage of imbalanced units or types of units. Which again, is actually useful for balancing casual play as it is easier to pick out problematic units that may not have been as obviously broken in the context of their own army (conscripts and brimstones both come to mind as previous examples).
The biggest problem with comparing warhammer to a moba is that it's way easier for a casual player to abuse something he read about a high level player doing in warhammer than it is in most mobas. Again, a fairly simple system that doesn't put a ton of pressure on for quick choices limits the gap. Their are few if any tournament lists so complicated a casual player would not be best served by using it over whatever they came up with, in marked contrast to the examples. Warhammer 40k doesn't have the sort of skill gap that requires balancing at two different levels.
They've also used balancing from the top to fix two majorly imbalanced units, conscripts and brimstones, through nerfs, thus lessening the power of hordes somewhat. So the idea they aren't willing to make extensive nerfs as needed is again fairly incorrect.
As for the news, I think the bikes look fairly solid. A flying unit is one of the few that can pull off mixed melee and ranges this edition, and the melts warheads do help fill a niche that was somewhat lacking. The new land raider stratagem is also interesting, ignoring penalties can really screw over some strategies and armies, might help push back on that being so prevalent.
Yea, points will be very interesting. Basic guys may go down a little so you can fit a few more. I see the bikes easily being 100 a pop with weapons. Land raider now is 386 I believe. Its good all around, but its firepower for cost is bad. Problem with big vehicles to murder things is just Fire Raptors. The true vehicle king of chaos and imperium. Hard to compete with that. Best hope is the AC flyer from 30k is ported over and is really badass and good pointed
warboss wrote: Or they can learn from their unbalanced cherry picking mess that was army building during 6th/7th edition and give pure single codex builds some kind of advantage to counteract the versatility of Imperial soup ones. I'm not jumping to the defense of 8th (never played it) but I see these kinds of rules as a response to the previous buffet style meta of army lists that needed an excel spreadsheet to make sense of the faction and detachments.
Yeah but that 'buffet style meta' hasn't gone anywhere, given how many 'soup' armies are out there.
SilverAlien wrote: So I'm going to spoiler a little rant about why balancing from the top works in 40k where it fails in other games, as it is kinda off topic.
Spoiler:
I find the discussion about balancing at different levels a bit odd as the issue mentioned, hordes being really cost effective relative to more elite armies, is an issue at all levels of play. It was noticed very early on by even casual players, and even local tournaments often have such armies as the norm at this point.
The biggest issue dividing high level tournament play and normal play is how common soup lists are. Which is an issue, but mainly slants the game towards the larger factions with more diversity of models and units in general, to take advantage of imbalanced units or types of units. Which again, is actually useful for balancing casual play as it is easier to pick out problematic units that may not have been as obviously broken in the context of their own army (conscripts and brimstones both come to mind as previous examples).
The biggest problem with comparing warhammer to a moba is that it's way easier for a casual player to abuse something he read about a high level player doing in warhammer than it is in most mobas. Again, a fairly simple system that doesn't put a ton of pressure on for quick choices limits the gap. Their are few if any tournament lists so complicated a casual player would not be best served by using it over whatever they came up with, in marked contrast to the examples. Warhammer 40k doesn't have the sort of skill gap that requires balancing at two different levels.
They've also used balancing from the top to fix two majorly imbalanced units, conscripts and brimstones, through nerfs, thus lessening the power of hordes somewhat. So the idea they aren't willing to make extensive nerfs as needed is again fairly incorrect.
As for the news, I think the bikes look fairly solid. A flying unit is one of the few that can pull off mixed melee and ranges this edition, and the melts warheads do help fill a niche that was somewhat lacking. The new land raider stratagem is also interesting, ignoring penalties can really screw over some strategies and armies, might help push back on that being so prevalent.
Yea, points will be very interesting. Basic guys may go down a little so you can fit a few more. I see the bikes easily being 100 a pop with weapons. Land raider now is 386 I believe. Its good all around, but its firepower for cost is bad. Problem with big vehicles to murder things is just Fire Raptors. The true vehicle king of chaos and imperium. Hard to compete with that. Best hope is the AC flyer from 30k is ported over and is really badass and good pointed
Think of it this way: GW is fielding 19 models at 2,000. That means our average cost per model is ~105.
Valoris is supposedly ~250. The generic infantry captain without wargear is ~125 based on random forum snippets. An Index sword + board is 54 and spear is 52, I think?
So I bet GW wants to take a battalion because it's 'standard'. 3 units of 3 spears is 468. 250 more for Valoris and like 137 for a generic captain with spear. That's 855 for 11 models. Means GW spent ~143 per model on the remaining 8 models, which are a mix of vehicles, dreads, bikes and terminators.
Could we get a separate topic for the actual news and rumors about custodes? I'm sure there are other people here who are also tired of sifting through 20 pages of metagame arguments every time a new dex is released.... I just want to talk about the shiny banana-men.
MattKing wrote: Could we get a separate topic for the actual news and rumors about custodes? I'm sure there are other people here who are also tired of sifting through 20 pages of metagame arguments every time a new dex is released.... I just want to talk about the shiny banana-men.
Look, there's such a thing as too much topic drift but I really don't see the point of trying to shut down an active discussion of the new thing. This is a discussion board, not a news post blog.
MattKing wrote: Could we get a separate topic for the actual news and rumors about custodes? I'm sure there are other people here who are also tired of sifting through 20 pages of metagame arguments every time a new dex is released.... I just want to talk about the shiny banana-men.
Look, there's such a thing as too much topic drift but I really don't see the point of trying to shut down an active discussion of the new thing. This is a discussion board, not a news post blog.
But this particular thread is about News and Rumors related to Adeptus Custodes, not balance in StarCraft II. Hell, it's not even about balance in 40k. If it isn't directly related to the Golden Super Marines, it doesn't belong here.
MattKing wrote: Could we get a separate topic for the actual news and rumors about custodes? I'm sure there are other people here who are also tired of sifting through 20 pages of metagame arguments every time a new dex is released.... I just want to talk about the shiny banana-men.
Look, there's such a thing as too much topic drift but I really don't see the point of trying to shut down an active discussion of the new thing. This is a discussion board, not a news post blog.
I'm nor trying to shut anything down. I asked for a new thread dedicated to discussing the new release "news and rumors" I've already sat through the protracted argument about why magnus is the end all be all of every game or why Mort's stupid broke and really don't want another mathmatical breakdown comparing conscript wound ratios. Custodes. Let's talk about Custodes.
MattKing wrote: Could we get a separate topic for the actual news and rumors about custodes? I'm sure there are other people here who are also tired of sifting through 20 pages of metagame arguments every time a new dex is released.... I just want to talk about the shiny banana-men.
I agree. So please move the balance discussion to another threat.
Awesome. Has anyone noticed that the scale seems a bit wonky? the terminators look smaller then the regular custodians while the bikers look a bit bigger. I wonder how compatible terminator / primaris bits are with the new models.
So question regarding pre orders, am I okay with waiting til they are live US time or should I be buying off another country to try and snag a collector's edition or dice (not committed to the edition yet)
MattKing wrote: Awesome. Has anyone noticed that the scale seems a bit wonky? the terminators look smaller then the regular custodians while the bikers look a bit bigger. I wonder how compatible terminator / primaris bits are with the new models.
The Allarus terminators are Custodes sized. But smaller than the massive Aquilon terminators. Bit of a shame, but they're cheaper than I expected as a result xD
carabine wrote: So question regarding pre orders, am I okay with waiting til they are live US time or should I be buying off another country to try and snag a collector's edition or dice (not committed to the edition yet)
They have certain amounts for each region, so they won’t be sold out by the time preorders go up in the US.
carabine wrote: So question regarding pre orders, am I okay with waiting til they are live US time or should I be buying off another country to try and snag a collector's edition or dice (not committed to the edition yet)
They have certain amounts for each region, so they won’t be sold out by the time preorders go up in the US.
Okay so they'll only be sold out seconds after going up in the US. And what time do preorders go live US. Never done this early grab before with GW.
warboss wrote: Or they can learn from their unbalanced cherry picking mess that was army building during 6th/7th edition and give pure single codex builds some kind of advantage to counteract the versatility of Imperial soup ones. I'm not jumping to the defense of 8th (never played it) but I see these kinds of rules as a response to the previous buffet style meta of army lists that needed an excel spreadsheet to make sense of the faction and detachments.
Yeah but that 'buffet style meta' hasn't gone anywhere, given how many 'soup' armies are out there.
They're not fixing the core problem.
But they're giving pure armies a benefit of their own to partly counteract that. It's baby steps admittedly but it's still progress.
carabine wrote: So question regarding pre orders, am I okay with waiting til they are live US time or should I be buying off another country to try and snag a collector's edition or dice (not committed to the edition yet)
They have certain amounts for each region, so they won’t be sold out by the time preorders go up in the US.
Okay so they'll only be sold out seconds after going up in the US. And what time do preorders go live US. Never done this early grab before with GW.
MattKing wrote: Could we get a separate topic for the actual news and rumors about custodes? I'm sure there are other people here who are also tired of sifting through 20 pages of metagame arguments every time a new dex is released.... I just want to talk about the shiny banana-men.
I agree. So please move the balance discussion to another threat.
It's as related as discussing pre-orders. Relax, it's a megathread. Room for all of us here!
I am so excited for tomorrow's reveal though. C'mon Terminators...
MattKing wrote: Could we get a separate topic for the actual news and rumors about custodes? I'm sure there are other people here who are also tired of sifting through 20 pages of metagame arguments every time a new dex is released.... I just want to talk about the shiny banana-men.
I agree. So please move the balance discussion to another threat.
It's as related as discussing pre-orders. Relax, it's a megathread. Room for all of us here!
I am so excited for tomorrow's reveal though. C'mon Terminators...
We know a little about the terminators, what I wanna know is what the elite dudes do.
I hope Custodes have a special rule like the Bloodbrothers of Genestealer, to be able to ally with Sisters of Silence without losing their Regiment bonuses. If not, I can always put them in a Vanguard detachment with Rhinos and Celestine as HQ.
Galas wrote: I hope Custodes have a special rule like the Bloodbrothers of Genestealer, to be able to ally with Sisters of Silence without losing their Regiment bonuses. If not, I can always put them in a Vanguard detachment with Rhinos and Celestine as HQ.
That could work. I was thinking Greyfax, a Custodes and a couple of contemptors to make a vanguard. Contemptors are great but they don’t get the bonus to their invulnerable saves so there’s less need for them to be in a Custodes detachment. I think you’d still be allowed to use stratagems on them, so long as you had one proper Custodes detachment.
Galas wrote: I hope Custodes have a special rule like the Bloodbrothers of Genestealer, to be able to ally with Sisters of Silence without losing their Regiment bonuses. If not, I can always put them in a Vanguard detachment with Rhinos and Celestine as HQ.
That could work. I was thinking Greyfax, a Custodes and a couple of contemptors to make a vanguard. Contemptors are great but they don’t get the bonus to their invulnerable saves so there’s less need for them to be in a Custodes detachment. I think you’d still be allowed to use stratagems on them, so long as you had one proper Custodes detachment.
Yes, that's correct. You can still Stratagem them.
An idea I had was to take an auxiliary detachment with Guilliman along with a battalion. Make him your Warlord and deploy him with Troop Custodes. He let's them re-roll 1's to hit and gives +1" to advances and charges to get them up and in faster.
As the Warlord he also gives +3 CP and the 5+ to recover any CP spent. You'd have 7 CP here with recovery. I think that s like 1120 minimum points from what is guessed so you'd have about 880 to add other stuff.
MattKing wrote: Could we get a separate topic for the actual news and rumors about custodes? I'm sure there are other people here who are also tired of sifting through 20 pages of metagame arguments every time a new dex is released.... I just want to talk about the shiny banana-men.
I agree. So please move the balance discussion to another threat.
It's as related as discussing pre-orders. Relax, it's a megathread. Room for all of us here!
I am so excited for tomorrow's reveal though. C'mon Terminators...
We know a little about the terminators, what I wanna know is what the elite dudes do.
Assuming they're the Hetaeron guard (Under a different name because GW love to do that for some reason), I'd imagine +1A, maybe +1W. If not possibly some extra save or way to generate more attacks.
cuda1179 wrote: So, basically non-deepstriking terminators. Wow, the variety, lol.
Well, they're the Companions. Close combat monsters, but there is only so much variety without digging into Forgeworld's stuff. But yeah, I hope they get some fancy rules to represent what they are :/
carabine wrote: So question regarding pre orders, am I okay with waiting til they are live US time or should I be buying off another country to try and snag a collector's edition or dice (not committed to the edition yet)
They have certain amounts for each region, so they won’t be sold out by the time preorders go up in the US.
Okay so they'll only be sold out seconds after going up in the US. And what time do preorders go live US. Never done this early grab before with GW.
I don't think any of the limited edition stuff has sold out at all in 8th. I remember many years ago their stuff sold out would sell out within minutes for sure, but now not so much. The Death Guard Collectors box was on their store for a good month after release for example.
So… If Custodes remain 3 wounds apiece, how often do you think we’ll see a 100 point Farseer killing a 3 man unit in 1 psychic phase? It’s only a 1.7% chance for a normal one, and a 2.39% chance with a CP for a Biel-Tan Farseer, but, with CP re-rolls you could get lucky more often than not!
All this previews really make me want an excuse to field Custodes but since I am a Grey Knight player, they overlap so much that I don't see how Custodes can complement a GK army. Maybe as a Storm Shield "tarpit"?
So with the previews, it said if you wanted a bodyguard for your favourite Imperial character, is this implying we could have like a mixed Imperium army and then have one Custodes standing guard by your Commisar or something? Cas that would be pretty sweet if you could do that.
So, since the Jetbikes have an hq character, and every custodes unit has obsec, is there any reason to run anything other than jetbikes? I mean... really?
Crazyterran wrote: So, since the Jetbikes have an hq character, and every custodes unit has obsec, is there any reason to run anything other than jetbikes? I mean... really?
Well yeah. Points. The standard custodes guys are really pretty good for 52 points. The jetbikes may or may not be good for their price. I expect the missile launcher ones will be very pricey.
GuardStrider wrote: All this previews really make me want an excuse to field Custodes but since I am a Grey Knight player, they overlap so much that I don't see how Custodes can complement a GK army. Maybe as a Storm Shield "tarpit"?
a replacement maybe? GKs are pretty bleh this edition
GuardStrider wrote: All this previews really make me want an excuse to field Custodes but since I am a Grey Knight player, they overlap so much that I don't see how Custodes can complement a GK army. Maybe as a Storm Shield "tarpit"?
a replacement maybe? GKs are pretty bleh this edition
I am fond of my GK, plus I can't afford a new army right now
GuardStrider wrote: All this previews really make me want an excuse to field Custodes but since I am a Grey Knight player, they overlap so much that I don't see how Custodes can complement a GK army. Maybe as a Storm Shield "tarpit"?
a replacement maybe? GKs are pretty bleh this edition
I am fond of my GK, plus I can't afford a new army right now
fair eneugh, great thing about custodes, like GKs. is the low model count means you can really afford to lavish attention on all your troops etc.
Crazyterran wrote: So, since the Jetbikes have an hq character, and every custodes unit has obsec, is there any reason to run anything other than jetbikes? I mean... really?
from a fluff point, not realy if you want to.
from a meta point, moust likely there will be plenty of reasons!
plus why would you not add some of the even cooler toys from FW?
Bolter your way to victory, charge the big things. With S6 the worst you will wound is on 5s.
Of course. We will see if its points efficient, but god damn its going to look cool.
Edit: I might, but most of the vehicles that arent contemptors are quite plain. I will porbably use the swords and bodies from the elite kit and shields from the normal one to make my paragon blade/shield Hetaeron, then use Tartaros power fists for the Solarite Gauntlets. Probably wont be 40k legal, but i already own like 50 Custodes on sprue still.
If Solarite Gauntlets get rules in 40k via FW, i know what my dudes are wielding...
GuardStrider wrote: All this previews really make me want an excuse to field Custodes but since I am a Grey Knight player, they overlap so much that I don't see how Custodes can complement a GK army. Maybe as a Storm Shield "tarpit"?
a replacement maybe? GKs are pretty bleh this edition
I am fond of my GK, plus I can't afford a new army right now
fair eneugh, great thing about custodes, like GKs. is the low model count means you can really afford to lavish attention on all your troops etc.
Yeah. Right now I can afford 1,maybe 2 of the upcoming units ,Which is why I was thinking what sort of detachment would fit best with my GK army, right now I am waiting for the rest of the previews and rule releases to see. At least since I already have Land Raiders I can use the Custode Profile for them.
To be honest I don't think Custodes and GKs complement each other all that well. They are pretty similar, and Custodes are probably just better all round.
I do think GKs should probably ally with someone though. The problem I always see with them is that they want to deep strike everyone, but aren't allowed to. A spearhead of LRBTs would probably go a long way to helping out the firepower issues that both GKs and Custodes are likely to experience.
Mandragola wrote: To be honest I don't think Custodes and GKs complement each other all that well. They are pretty similar, and Custodes are probably just better all round.
I do think GKs should probably ally with someone though. The problem I always see with them is that they want to deep strike everyone, but aren't allowed to. A spearhead of LRBTs would probably go a long way to helping out the firepower issues that both GKs and Custodes are likely to experience.
Yeah, I know that's why I said in the 1st post
GuardStrider wrote: All this previews really make me want an excuse to field Custodes but since I am a Grey Knight player, they overlap so much that I don't see how Custodes can complement a GK army. Maybe as a Storm Shield "tarpit"?
I just want to field some and I was trying to see how could they fit, I already have some AM allies with my GK, for some extra bodies and CP.
Apparently they can. Supposedly they tested how well a trio of terminators can perform against 30 orks, and they killed the mob while only losing 1.5 terminators.
Keep in mind that orks are tougher than IG, so they can probably do it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Apparently they can. Supposedly they tested how well a trio of terminators can perform against 30 orks, and they killed the mob while only losing 1.5 terminators.
Keep in mind that orks are tougher than IG, so they can probably do it.
Then again ork boyz aren't all that hot. 45 IG troopers would be better than orks. For one they can shoot rather than cc. Going to CC with terminators isn't probably smartest idea(well unless you charge. 30 boyz likely kill 3 terminators anyway) while shooting works better. And not being in one unit means morale isn't issue.
3 terminators also might cost more than 30 boyz.
But GW testing against punching bags isn't that useful to know. You can get everything look good by adjusting test scenario.
Well, so far I am looking at a box of Terminators to make Characters, the Custodes General guy, two more boxes of regular Custodians, and at least two boxes of jetbikes. Maybe a Contemptor or two and maybe a Land Raider (I don't actually have a regular Land Raider). So this is going to be a fairly expensive model purchase.
Honestly, due to the all gold, this might be the first army I have every model built.
Edit: Though if it is true that can run Custodes is squads of only three, maybe only one more box of regular Custodes and make one into a Vexilus Praetor and run three Squads of 3. Something to ponder at least. I like the regular Custodes.
I have to say, despite not being a big fan of this "type" of army(supposedly a tiny force in the fiction, supposedly rarely seen, and supposedly on those rare occasions almost always deployed as individuals or small groups in support of more mainstream Imperial forces, yet somehow only ever seem to show up as big((by their standards)) honking armies) and rather disliking the new 40K lore, some of the models are pretty sweet, and I'm hoping the codex ends up having at least a *decent* amount of info on the Custodes in the period between the Heresy and the start of all this nuPrimarch nonsense.
I'll probably end up grabbing the character and a box of the robed chappies at some point to use as a wee variety pick for HH or in case I ever do come to like the modern fluff. I always preferred the HH art where most of the spear-wielding guys had robes or at least kilts to the plastic kit - having something on the model to break up all that gold really improves them IMO. Still prefer the FW Terminators though.
Yodhrin wrote: I have to say, despite not being a big fan of this "type" of army(supposedly a tiny force in the fiction, supposedly rarely seen, and supposedly on those rare occasions almost always deployed as individuals or small groups in support of more mainstream Imperial forces, yet somehow only ever seem to show up as big((by their standards)) honking armies) and rather disliking the new 40K lore, some of the models are pretty sweet, and I'm hoping the codex ends up having at least a *decent* amount of info on the Custodes in the period between the Heresy and the start of all this nuPrimarch nonsense.
I'll probably end up grabbing the character and a box of the robed chappies at some point to use as a wee variety pick for HH or in case I ever do come to like the modern fluff. I always preferred the HH art where most of the spear-wielding guys had robes or at least kilts to the plastic kit - having something on the model to break up all that gold really improves them IMO. Still prefer the FW Terminators though.
While I share your (morbid in my case) interest in the post-Heresy high jinks of the Custodes, I have my doubts that there is any going back from the Whoop Whoop Primarchs Are Awesome (Also: It Was Cawl All Along!) style of writing the studio currently produces. Just spreading my daily dose of love and be careful what you wish for.
Has there been any hint that the jetbikes may be taken without the stupid lances? The models are kind of pretty, but I just can't get behind the lance thing. The Warhammer Community article made it seem like lances are inbuilt. I really hope that's not true.
That was almost no info on the Wardens, which makes it sound worryingly like they really don't have a special gimmick beyond their FNP and a little more Wargear choices.
changemod wrote: That was almost no info on the Wardens, which makes it sound worryingly like they really don't have a special gimmick beyond their FNP and a little more Wargear choices.
and more attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fireball wrote: begs the question if Custodian Wardens equal Hetaerons ... and should it not be "Part 4"?
I don't think Custodian Wardens equal Hetaerons. Fluff wise Hetaerons don't leave the Emperors side.
OK, I stand by what I said above about these kinds of armies, but still, this:
If you’re looking for a particularly fun and thematic army, you could take a unit of 10, teleport them into battle, and assassinate a key enemy character before splitting up into different groups to hunt down the enemy.
...sounds extremely cool, and would make an excellent "NPC" army to be controlled by the person running a campaign during a big climactic multiplayer battle. Whether that kind of niche case is worth the moolah to buy 12 of these guys(because of course they're sold in odd numbers with an even numbered max squad size) is another thing, but it's an intriguing prospect.
Man, I am getting very tempted by this. Doddle to paint, super-cheap to collect. And, crucially, a smol enough army to be easily taken to and from on my commute, so I can go straight to the gaming club instead of heading home first.
changemod wrote: That was almost no info on the Wardens, which makes it sound worryingly like they really don't have a special gimmick beyond their FNP and a little more Wargear choices.
and more attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fireball wrote: begs the question if Custodian Wardens equal Hetaerons ... and should it not be "Part 4"?
I don't think Custodian Wardens equal Hetaerons. Fluff wise Hetaerons don't leave the Emperors side.
I mean, I'll still buy them because I need Paragon Spear hetareons to fill out my 30k Custodes, but that's pretty disappointing.
Seems the 40k release is cool models, bland Wargear. The 30k port to spice them up can't come soon enough.
changemod wrote: That was almost no info on the Wardens, which makes it sound worryingly like they really don't have a special gimmick beyond their FNP and a little more Wargear choices.
and more attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fireball wrote: begs the question if Custodian Wardens equal Hetaerons ... and should it not be "Part 4"?
I don't think Custodian Wardens equal Hetaerons. Fluff wise Hetaerons don't leave the Emperors side.
I mean, I'll still buy them because I need Paragon Spear hetareons to fill out my 30k Custodes, but that's pretty disappointing.
Seems the 40k release is cool models, bland Wargear. The 30k port to spice them up can't come soon enough.
They use paragon blades! Not paragon spears xD
Big rules difference
Tonight's warhammer live army list has "miserocordia" listed as equipment. I was originally pretty miffed that wardens and allarus seemed so meh but the appearance of a previously undiscussed piece of equipment intrigues me.
changemod wrote: That was almost no info on the Wardens, which makes it sound worryingly like they really don't have a special gimmick beyond their FNP and a little more Wargear choices.
Thats good enough to justify the existence of Death Company, Sternguard Veterans and Vanguard Veterans.
Cephalobeard wrote: I can't imagine a world where I would ever, in any context, use a Land Raider as anything other than a meme.
The problem is the cost. But having two Land Raiders destroying Eldar Flyers ignoring the -2 to hit (-3 if moved), or tanks ignoring the -1 to hit (-2 if moved), for 1 CP seems pretty good.
carabine wrote: Tonight's warhammer live army list has "miserocordia" listed as equipment. I was originally pretty miffed that wardens and allarus seemed so meh but the appearance of a previously undiscussed piece of equipment intrigues me.
Yet more confirmation 30k Custodes are meant to have a default power weapon that has no rules and hasn't been FAQed yet.
changemod wrote: That was almost no info on the Wardens, which makes it sound worryingly like they really don't have a special gimmick beyond their FNP and a little more Wargear choices.
Thats good enough to justify the existence of Death Company, Sternguard Veterans and Vanguard Veterans.
If their -one- extra weapon wasn't just an axe sure. They seem a little -too- similar to the troops versions.
I love too the variety of Weapons that Space Marines have. But they are a special case, not the norm. The rest of the armies have 2-3 weapons options normally for their units.
I've been enjoying building little detachments of different Imperial armies that I can combine together to make 2000 point lists with pretty small investments towards any one army. Seeing what constitutes a 2000 point army of these guys is starting to place them much higher on my list.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well unless custodies are even stronger than we're lead to believe, they look like they're boned.
You're kidding? They seem fine so far. We'll have to wait to see if they actually get into the tippy-top tier but they're pretty obviously going to be in the "above average" category based on these reveals and the leaks we have so far.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well unless custodies are even stronger than we're lead to believe, they look like they're boned.
You're kidding? They seem fine so far. We'll have to wait to see if they actually get into the tippy-top tier but they're pretty obviously going to be in the "above average" category based on these reveals and the leaks we have so far.
Its not so much a knock on the custodies, but they're facing a Magnus list, with death hex.
carabine wrote: Tonight's warhammer live army list has "miserocordia" listed as equipment. I was originally pretty miffed that wardens and allarus seemed so meh but the appearance of a previously undiscussed piece of equipment intrigues me.
That's not 'previously undiscussed piece of equipment'. That's their dagger. Probably replaces earlier editions 'power knife' with something more unique.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well unless custodies are even stronger than we're lead to believe, they look like they're boned.
You're kidding? They seem fine so far. We'll have to wait to see if they actually get into the tippy-top tier but they're pretty obviously going to be in the "above average" category based on these reveals and the leaks we have so far.
Its not so much a knock on the custodies, but they're facing a Magnus list, with death hex.
Oh you just mean tonight's battle. Yes, it'll hurt, but it is survivable. We'll see if the players are any good. In general though, the army looks quite good and the mortal wounds issue navigable with allies.
carabine wrote: Tonight's warhammer live army list has "miserocordia" listed as equipment. I was originally pretty miffed that wardens and allarus seemed so meh but the appearance of a previously undiscussed piece of equipment intrigues me.
That's not 'previously undiscussed piece of equipment'. That's their dagger. Probably replaces earlier editions 'power knife' with something more unique.
While I could see it replacing the older power knife we've seen no such rules or elaborations on it so it's still undiscussed. It probably is something a bit more than a power knife since all basic custodians have it and since you can't "upgrade" to a vexilla it doesn't make sense for them to have it when they give up their spear.
Unfortunately, with how they wrote out their list (listing some upgrades while leaving some standard gear off like the twin heavy bolter on the land raider) there's no way to tell if it's an upgrade or a default piece of gear.
carabine wrote: Unfortunately, with how they wrote out their list (listing some upgrades while leaving some standard gear off like the twin heavy bolter on the land raider) there's no way to tell if it's an upgrade or a default piece of gear.
I'd be really shocked if that is anything but power knife replacement seeing miséricorde is literally medieval name for a dagger knights wore to use up close.
carabine wrote: Unfortunately, with how they wrote out their list (listing some upgrades while leaving some standard gear off like the twin heavy bolter on the land raider) there's no way to tell if it's an upgrade or a default piece of gear.
I'd be really shocked if that is anything but power knife replacement seeing miséricorde is literally medieval name for a dagger knights wore to use up close.
Just mentioned in the stream now, 4pts upgrade for an additional attack at a different profile, str is likely user as they stated S5, unknown AP.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well unless custodies are even stronger than we're lead to believe, they look like they're boned.
I've never watched a warhammer live game. Do they show the dice rolls on camera live so that the results are visible? I'm curious if they tweak the report like I suspect in the old days in WD to almost always show the current army they're promoting in a favorable light through the use of fudged dice rolls and bone headed opposition tactics.
Sarevokk wrote: So the castellans axe give +3 strength Ap-3 D3 and is not giving -1 ws modifier like powerfist and you hit on 2+, said the man on the stream...
So the spears are now ap 4? They have repeated how the axe has less ap.
Sarevokk wrote: So the castellans axe give +3 strength Ap-3 D3 and is not giving -1 ws modifier like powerfist and you hit on 2+, said the man on the stream...
So the spears are now ap 4? They have repeated how the axe has less ap.
I think the man is wrong and it's -2. I have a REALLY hard time believing Spears are -4.
Praetorian Plate: Goes to a Custodes model, select an Imperium character and at the end of the opponents charge phase you can teleport the custodian character teleport to the selected imperium unit within 3" and within 1" of an enemy.
Bodyguard relic, neat. I mean, it's interesting on an Assassin?
I’m not seeing it... Bullgryn deathstar with an invuln save? How does it work?
Basically the bullgryn end up with a 4++ invul save and quite a few attacks. However, they're still slow as balls and a 4++ isn't that big of a deal. And don't they already have a pretty good invul available to them? Yeah, basically it won't matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cephalobeard wrote: Praetorian Plate: Goes to a Custodes model, select an Imperium character and at the end of the opponents charge phase you can teleport the custodian character teleport to the selected imperium unit within 3" and within 1" of an enemy.
Bodyguard relic, neat. I mean, it's interesting on an Assassin?
Celestine would be fun. Camp your megadeath custodes out of LoS, swap for Celestine and then Celestine has enough movement she can go wherever you need her the next turn.
Sarevokk wrote: So the castellans axe give +3 strength Ap-3 D3 and is not giving -1 ws modifier like powerfist and you hit on 2+, said the man on the stream...
So the spears are now ap 4? They have repeated how the axe has less ap.
I think the man is wrong and it's -2. I have a REALLY hard time believing Spears are -4.
The -3 is when you use a strategem with a squad with at least 2 axes. (works like a can opener.)
I’m not seeing it... Bullgryn deathstar with an invuln save? How does it work?
Basically the bullgryn end up with a 4++ invul save and quite a few attacks. However, they're still slow as balls and a 4++ isn't that big of a deal. And don't they already have a pretty good invul available to them? Yeah, basically it won't matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cephalobeard wrote: Praetorian Plate: Goes to a Custodes model, select an Imperium character and at the end of the opponents charge phase you can teleport the custodian character teleport to the selected imperium unit within 3" and within 1" of an enemy.
Bodyguard relic, neat. I mean, it's interesting on an Assassin?
Celestine would be fun. Camp your megadeath custodes out of LoS, swap for Celestine and then Celestine has enough movement she can go wherever you need her the next turn.
Is it really a swap? Based on that description I read it more as the Custodes just appears next to them and joins the fight, which is STILL excellent for traps!
I’m not seeing it... Bullgryn deathstar with an invuln save? How does it work?
Basically the bullgryn end up with a 4++ invul save and quite a few attacks. However, they're still slow as balls and a 4++ isn't that big of a deal. And don't they already have a pretty good invul available to them? Yeah, basically it won't matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cephalobeard wrote: Praetorian Plate: Goes to a Custodes model, select an Imperium character and at the end of the opponents charge phase you can teleport the custodian character teleport to the selected imperium unit within 3" and within 1" of an enemy.
Bodyguard relic, neat. I mean, it's interesting on an Assassin?
Celestine would be fun. Camp your megadeath custodes out of LoS, swap for Celestine and then Celestine has enough movement she can go wherever you need her the next turn.
Is it really a swap? Based on that description I read it more as the Custodes just appears next to them and joins the fight, which is STILL excellent for traps!
If it's not a swap, that's even crazier. Celestine would be hand delivering Custodes characters into combat the whole game. That would be hilarious! 'Surprise Mothaluvas, I got THHREEE golden backup dancers now!'
I’m not seeing it... Bullgryn deathstar with an invuln save? How does it work?
Basically the bullgryn end up with a 4++ invul save and quite a few attacks. However, they're still slow as balls and a 4++ isn't that big of a deal. And don't they already have a pretty good invul available to them? Yeah, basically it won't matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cephalobeard wrote: Praetorian Plate: Goes to a Custodes model, select an Imperium character and at the end of the opponents charge phase you can teleport the custodian character teleport to the selected imperium unit within 3" and within 1" of an enemy.
Bodyguard relic, neat. I mean, it's interesting on an Assassin?
Celestine would be fun. Camp your megadeath custodes out of LoS, swap for Celestine and then Celestine has enough movement she can go wherever you need her the next turn.
Is it really a swap? Based on that description I read it more as the Custodes just appears next to them and joins the fight, which is STILL excellent for traps!
If it's not a swap, that's even crazier. Celestine would be hand delivering Custodes characters into combat the whole game. That would be hilarious! 'Surprise Mothaluvas, I got THHREEE golden backup dancers now!'
Right? Magic Mike joins the posse. I'm definitely hoping this is how it works.
From Wildweasel on Bolter and Chainsword:
LORE SHOW NOTES!
Lots of the lore already known being covered (singular fighters etc), will try to pick out new or interesting bits.
Codex written by Andy Clarke. Andy was scheduled for this but has the Nurgley plague that’s been going around.
Shield Companies with different schemes, full page each. Red & gold, Black & gold, gold & purple, white & gold pointed out, at least one or two more companies in there they didn’t mention the colors on.
Custodes uplift starts in infancy. Selected from children offered by Imperial dynasties on Terra.
Pre-Heresy they were Emperor’s companions and closest thing to friends, not just bodyguards or servants.
No Custodian known to have fallen to Chaos.
Distrustful of Astartes thanks to the Heresy.
Do not die of old age, but do eventually slow some with age (after centuries or millennia). Once they do, they retire from active military duty, turning their wargear over to their order, and go forth into the Imperium in secret, running the Custodes spy networks.
Valdor not recorded as dead…
Have a remit similar to the Inquistion’s, in that they derive their authority directly from the Emperor and can commander most Imperial elements.
No psykers – too dangerous/unpredictable. Very strong of soul, which explains their save versus psychic wounds.
“Created to kill Astartes” too reductionist – created to defeat all threats to the Emperor/Throne. Astartes have basically become a constant background worry.
Notes from the Rules section:
“How many bikes can you fit into a 2,000 point army?” Not many.
Already known stuff about the Custodian Guard.
Sentinel Storm (2CP) – At end of opponent Shooting Phase, choose unit within 1” of enemy and they shoot with their sentinel blades
Custodian Wardens – veteran unit, Axe S+3 AP-2 Dd3, no hit penalty. 4 Attacks on profile
Castellan Strike (1CP) – Select unit in Fight phase, if all axes in unit target the same enemy unit, axes become AP-3
Misaercordia – most models have or can take. Grants extra attack with swords. 4 points.
Covering known info on Ven Land Raiders and Contemptors.
Allarus Custodes – Spear or axe. Covering all the stuff from the preview. Can teleport natively (I think, may have misheard). Grenade launcher S4 AP something D1
Jetbikes – Covered everything we knew. No Vexilla option.
Shield Captain – buildable out of all the kits (biker Captain <3). Reroll hits of 1 aura.
Trajaan – nothing new
Vexilla options for Custodians, Wardens, Allarus.
Unflinching (?CP) – Improves overwatch
Victor of the Blood Games (?CP) – Choose an AC Character at setup, they get one reroll per turn
Shoulder the Mantle (?CP) – When Warlord is killed, choose another Shield-Captain and he becomes your Warlord (denying Slay the Warlord) with a Warlord Trait
7 relics.
Praetorian Plate relic – Given to an AC. Choose an Imperium Character. At end of opponent’s charge, AC can teleport to Imperium Character, within 3” of target and 1” of enemy.
Auric Aquillas – relic jetbike, 3++ and reroll charges
Auric Shackles relic – Reduce A of enemy Characters near them, additional d3 VP if they kill the Warlord
Two relic Vexillas – One is an orbital bombardment that only hits friendly AC on a 6, other “shoots lightning bolts” and is a melee weapon
Faith Absolute – third Vexilla relic, bearer can Deny the Witch
Misericordia sounds overpriced on the combat units we've been seeing so far, but would be great on Sagittarum if they can take them later on. Effectively making them very strong devastator-terminator equivalents.
changemod wrote: Misericordia sounds overpriced on the combat units we've been seeing so far, but would be great on Sagittarum if they can take them later on. Effectively making them very strong devastator-terminator equivalents.
They're also a great way to fill up 8 or 12 points leftover in a list.
changemod wrote: Misericordia sounds overpriced on the combat units we've been seeing so far, but would be great on Sagittarum if they can take them later on. Effectively making them very strong devastator-terminator equivalents.
Assuming the miserocordia attack is the same statline as the power knife from the index here's the balance. 52pts for a custodian with 3 attacks with a guardian spear, or 12 attacks (52÷4pts) spread out over the army at STR 5, ap-2, D1.
I'm having a hard time deciding that. One model for 12 attacks, survivability vs damage. Str 5 Ap-2 will cut through infantry fast and even most light vehicles given enough hits.
Also remember they said pretty much all units either come with or can purchase it, so it might be a great way to burn points you have spare.
Auric Aquillas+Radiant mantle would be a freakin scary combat character. Or you could go Praeetorian plate+radiant mantle and have Celestine combat drop an Allarus warlord into enemy lines.
I'm thinking a supreme command with 3 custodes characters with 2 relics and one of the standard vexillas would be pretty baller allied force for any non-codex imperial army that can afford to give the custodes warlord.
ERJAK wrote: Auric Aquillas+Radiant mantle would be a freakin scary combat character. Or you could go Praeetorian plate+radiant mantle and have Celestine combat drop an Allarus warlord into enemy lines.
I'm thinking a supreme command with 3 custodes characters with 2 relics and one of the standard vexillas would be pretty baller allied force for any non-codex imperial army that can afford to give the custodes warlord.
A Character can only have one relic. (Unless they have made some change for the AC but I doubt it).
ERJAK wrote: Auric Aquillas+Radiant mantle would be a freakin scary combat character. Or you could go Praeetorian plate+radiant mantle and have Celestine combat drop an Allarus warlord into enemy lines.
I'm thinking a supreme command with 3 custodes characters with 2 relics and one of the standard vexillas would be pretty baller allied force for any non-codex imperial army that can afford to give the custodes warlord.
A Character can only have one relic. (Unless they have made some change for the AC but I doubt it).
Oddly enough I think I'm most curious about the Vexilus Praetor. The Vexilla Magnifica (-1 to be hit when within 6") seems like an auto take for anyone contemplating more than 2 units of infantry.
Right now I'm contemplating 3×3-5 man units of spears or axes surrounding a praetor. 2+/4++, 6+++ if I go with warders (which at minimum 1/3 units would be) forcing the enemy to hit at -1. It feels like this could get across the table while putting those damage 2 spears to good effect.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Do they store these videos for later viewing? Twitch is being a slow pile of fething gak. I can only watch it at 160p, and everything is blurry.
carabine wrote: Oddly enough I think I'm most curious about the Vexilus Praetor. The Vexilla Magnifica (-1 to be hit when within 6") seems like an auto take for anyone contemplating more than 2 units of infantry.
Right now I'm contemplating 3×3-5 man units of spears or axes surrounding a praetor. 2+/4++, 6+++ if I go with warders (which at minimum 1/3 units would be) forcing the enemy to hit at -1. It feels like this could get across the table while putting those damage 2 spears to good effect.
The issue here wouldn't necessarily be surviving getting across the table, but the fact that once you got across the tablel you'd have to chase them back the other way, rinse and repeat.
carabine wrote: Oddly enough I think I'm most curious about the Vexilus Praetor. The Vexilla Magnifica (-1 to be hit when within 6") seems like an auto take for anyone contemplating more than 2 units of infantry.
Right now I'm contemplating 3×3-5 man units of spears or axes surrounding a praetor. 2+/4++, 6+++ if I go with warders (which at minimum 1/3 units would be) forcing the enemy to hit at -1. It feels like this could get across the table while putting those damage 2 spears to good effect.
The issue here wouldn't necessarily be surviving getting across the table, but the fact that once you got across the tablel you'd have to chase them back the other way, rinse and repeat.
Definitely makes the jetbikes close to mandatory. That relic Jetbikes and Radiant Mantle should do nicely for making a downright annoying to kill Captain. Too bad there isn't a Vexilla option for jetbikes. I would buy a kit just to make some characters!
Speaking of which, the army in general seems a bit too samey compared to the FW Custodes. Warders are just slightly more elite custodian guard, alarus add deep strike and their wrist launcher, but are still 2+/4++ spearmen... And as the bikes are less shooty than the FW variants they fall back on their melee as their defining trait.
They need the promised FW document for fractionally more troop distinction and a lot more dread and vehicle definition ASAP.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Do they store these videos for later viewing? Twitch is being a slow pile of fething gak. I can only watch it at 160p, and everything is blurry.
Yes but they are subscriber only.
If your an amazon prime member you get to subscribe to one free twitch channel a month so if you have access to that its something to think about
Speaking of which, the army in general seems a bit too samey compared to the FW Custodes. Warders are just slightly more elite custodian guard, alarus add deep strike and their wrist launcher, but are still 2+/4++ spearmen... And as the bikes are less shooty than the FW variants they fall back on their melee as their defining trait.
They need the promised FW document for fractionally more troop distinction and a lot more dread and vehicle definition ASAP.
Yeah, it seems all the AC firepower is in the FW units. Saggitarum, the Bikes, the FW Terminators, etc...
Speaking of which, the army in general seems a bit too samey compared to the FW Custodes. Warders are just slightly more elite custodian guard, alarus add deep strike and their wrist launcher, but are still 2+/4++ spearmen... And as the bikes are less shooty than the FW variants they fall back on their melee as their defining trait.
They need the promised FW document for fractionally more troop distinction and a lot more dread and vehicle definition ASAP.
Yeah, it seems all the AC firepower is in the FW units. Saggitarum, the Bikes, the FW Terminators, etc...
Basically. This is a codex of similarly equipped assault units with a narrow range of gimmicks at the moment.
I'll be perfectly happy when I get my dreads and a few ranged options through, but honestly I'm mostly eyeing the jetbikes to convert to Agamatus, the Warders to use as Hetareon and the terminators for their looks... I seem to be the only person I've seen so far to like both types of custodian terminator model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote: So watching this stream, T1 is almost over for both players and I think we can conclude:
Landraiders is as pointless as expected.
Mass Tzaangors fire is doing more damage than Magnus + Ahriman psychic phase.
To be fair, as much as I've been one of the voices speaking against the land raider, there's not a lot of good targets for it's quad las. Quad las and moving troops are both good, it's just too much to pay for that in an army already hurting for model count.
changemod wrote: Basically. This is a codex of similarly equipped assault units with a narrow range of gimmicks at the moment.
I'll be perfectly happy when I get my dreads and a few ranged options through, but honestly I'm mostly eyeing the jetbikes to convert to Agamatus, the Warders to use as Hetareon and the terminators for their looks... I seem to be the only person I've seen so far to like both types of custodian terminator model.
To be fair, as much as I've been one of the voices speaking against the land raider, there's not a lot of good targets for it's quad las. Quad las and moving troops are both good, it's just too much to pay for that in an army already hurting for model count.
I agree that the list will only feel complete when the FW stuff gets 40k rules.
As it happens, I've got a 3/4 finished massively-elaborate land raider conversion that I started years ago. It would fit well as a custodes one, as my marines certainly have no use for it. So I might give it a go for a game or two just to see if it's as bad as it looks.
Personally I don't like the plastic AC termies as much as either the normal ACs or the FW termies. It might be possible to build them in poses that look cooler than the way GW has built them.
Speaking of which, the army in general seems a bit too samey compared to the FW Custodes. Warders are just slightly more elite custodian guard, alarus add deep strike and their wrist launcher, but are still 2+/4++ spearmen... And as the bikes are less shooty than the FW variants they fall back on their melee as their defining trait.
They need the promised FW document for fractionally more troop distinction and a lot more dread and vehicle definition ASAP.
Yeah, it seems all the AC firepower is in the FW units. Saggitarum, the Bikes, the FW Terminators, etc...
Basically. This is a codex of similarly equipped assault units with a narrow range of gimmicks at the moment.
I'll be perfectly happy when I get my dreads and a few ranged options through, but honestly I'm mostly eyeing the jetbikes to convert to Agamatus, the Warders to use as Hetareon and the terminators for their looks... I seem to be the only person I've seen so far to like both types of custodian terminator model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote: So watching this stream, T1 is almost over for both players and I think we can conclude:
Landraiders is as pointless as expected.
Mass Tzaangors fire is doing more damage than Magnus + Ahriman psychic phase.
To be fair, as much as I've been one of the voices speaking against the land raider, there's not a lot of good targets for it's quad las. Quad las and moving troops are both good, it's just too much to pay for that in an army already hurting for model count.
I mean, Magnus and the Vortex beast come to mind, but I meant more it getting immediately tied up. Custodes can't bubble-wrap so you never will get to really use it.
Speaking of which, the army in general seems a bit too samey compared to the FW Custodes. Warders are just slightly more elite custodian guard, alarus add deep strike and their wrist launcher, but are still 2+/4++ spearmen... And as the bikes are less shooty than the FW variants they fall back on their melee as their defining trait.
They need the promised FW document for fractionally more troop distinction and a lot more dread and vehicle definition ASAP.
There's no guarantee that those unit will perform any differently than any of the rest of the custodes stuff. they're going from 7th rules to 8th rules, they're going to be totally new units at the end.
Speaking of which, the army in general seems a bit too samey compared to the FW Custodes. Warders are just slightly more elite custodian guard, alarus add deep strike and their wrist launcher, but are still 2+/4++ spearmen... And as the bikes are less shooty than the FW variants they fall back on their melee as their defining trait.
They need the promised FW document for fractionally more troop distinction and a lot more dread and vehicle definition ASAP.
There's no guarantee that those unit will perform any differently than any of the rest of the custodes stuff. they're going from 7th rules to 8th rules, they're going to be totally new units at the end.
7th to 8th is mostly predictable. The main outliers are things like heliothermic detonation.
Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
To be fair, as much as I've been one of the voices speaking against the land raider, there's not a lot of good targets for it's quad las. Quad las and moving troops are both good, it's just too much to pay for that in an army already hurting for model count.
Waiting on rules for it, but the Caladius Annihilator may be the better anti-tank choice. Flying means it can't be tied up as easily and you're not paying for the Heavy Bolter (already covered better by Guardian Spears) or transport capacity for your longest ranged units.
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Hmm, it's not over yet. Tzaangors getting eaten by battle shock I'd imagine. This guy doesn't seem to have take any axes though so Magnus is tanking a stupid amount.
I heard them say that too. Between that and Reecius saying that about GK it's just
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Hmm, it's not over yet. Tzaangors getting eaten by battle shock I'd imagine. This guy doesn't seem to have take any axes though so Magnus is tanking a stupid amount.
'oh, but he's so much less durable now!' frekin liers.
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Hmm, it's not over yet. Tzaangors getting eaten by battle shock I'd imagine. This guy doesn't seem to have take any axes though so Magnus is tanking a stupid amount.
'oh, but he's so much less durable now!' frekin liers.
Haha, yeah, he's still PLENTY durable to anything besides massed, long-range anti-tank.
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Thats how it starts, you take 30% guard then 50% then you realize at some point that a single jetbike is not worth taking over a leman russ lmao. I am just guessing about costs btw fellas. I think the main appeal to me at least is the idea of having an all elite infantry army that fits into a shoebox so I can basically travel with it easily enough and still have some fun casual games. In normal circumstances people will just cherry pick the characters that pump their list the best. Probably gona see the Vexiller in just about every imperial soup army from now til 9th.
Aren't Thousand Sons an Anti-Elite and heavy Psyker army? Like... they couldn't be more counter-pick vs Custodes. But yeah, so much for the TS players crying that Custodes where gonna destroy TS just because this was a marketing game for Custodes.
At least have the decency to not drop fething Magnus against an obvious "advertising army" of custodes. You'd think they would have made it fun Vs fun rather than the obvious serious list the Tzeench one was...
I don't think the Tzeentch List was a serious one, they where showing too a ton of different units. It has Magnus probably to shown the changes to Magnus. But even then, Magnus is Magnus.
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Hmm, it's not over yet. Tzaangors getting eaten by battle shock I'd imagine. This guy doesn't seem to have take any axes though so Magnus is tanking a stupid amount.
I heard them say that too. Between that and Reecius saying that about GK it's just
It's not over, but it looks like Eddie brought a real list and Steve brought a 'fun' list meant to show off different unit types.
I did say at some point it came down to whether the thousand sons player was interested in playing a game or if he just wanted to bring Magnus instead.
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Thats how it starts, you take 30% guard then 50% then you realize at some point that a single jetbike is not worth taking over a leman russ lmao. I am just guessing about costs btw fellas. I think the main appeal to me at least is the idea of having an all elite infantry army that fits into a shoebox so I can basically travel with it easily enough and still have some fun casual games. In normal circumstances people will just cherry pick the characters that pump their list the best. Probably gona see the Vexiller in just about every imperial soup army from now til 9th.
The custodians on foot still suck. Even with -1 to be hit and 4++, they are still slow guys with 3 attacks a piece that are marginally more deadly than a bullgryn. Now the 5++ invul banner with bullgryns ... I mean holy crap. Bullgryns with a native 3++ is just LOL. You can either strategem or psychic power into +1 to saves from there.
At least have the decency to not drop fething Magnus against an obvious "advertising army" of custodes. You'd think they would have made it fun Vs fun rather than the obvious serious list the Tzeench one was...
Thats the problem, GW still thinks that the primarchs are fun for the game when in reality they do the opposite. I am not saying you can't beat them for the record, but in order to beat them you need to play the game in an entirely different way then GW wants to admit. All three basically ruin balance in pick up games.
Aren't Thousand Sons an Anti-Elite and heavy Psyker army? Like... they couldn't be more counter-pick vs Custodes. But yeah, so much for the TS players crying that Custodes where gonna destroy TS just because this was a marketing game for Custodes.
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Thats how it starts, you take 30% guard then 50% then you realize at some point that a single jetbike is not worth taking over a leman russ lmao. I am just guessing about costs btw fellas. I think the main appeal to me at least is the idea of having an all elite infantry army that fits into a shoebox so I can basically travel with it easily enough and still have some fun casual games. In normal circumstances people will just cherry pick the characters that pump their list the best. Probably gona see the Vexiller in just about every imperial soup army from now til 9th.
The custodians on foot still suck. Even with -1 to be hit and 4++, they are still slow guys with 3 attacks a piece that are marginally more deadly than a bullgryn. Now the 5++ invul banner with bullgryns ... I mean holy crap. Bullgryns with a native 3++ is just LOL. You can either strategem or psychic power into +1 to saves from there.
Yea, you could already do this with celestine though, I just use my Bulgryn with a primaris psycher and I have yet to lose that unit. I personally wouldn't pull that as I don't need to but I can see that adding another way to skin the cat for inperial soup armies in tournaments. I wonder what twisted combo appears at the LVO under the radar.
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Hmm, it's not over yet. Tzaangors getting eaten by battle shock I'd imagine. This guy doesn't seem to have take any axes though so Magnus is tanking a stupid amount.
I heard them say that too. Between that and Reecius saying that about GK it's just
It's not over, but it looks like Eddie brought a real list and Steve brought a 'fun' list meant to show off different unit types.
I did say at some point it came down to whether the thousand sons player was interested in playing a game or if he just wanted to bring Magnus instead.
At least have the decency to not drop fething Magnus against an obvious "advertising army" of custodes. You'd think they would have made it fun Vs fun rather than the obvious serious list the Tzeench one was...
Thats the problem, GW still thinks that the primarchs are fun for the game when in reality they do the opposite. I am not saying you can't beat them for the record, but in order to beat them you need to play the game in an entirely different way then GW wants to admit. All three basically ruin balance in pick up games.
the bigger issues with primarchs will come when there are 10+ of them running around. Hope ya'll are excited.
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Thats how it starts, you take 30% guard then 50% then you realize at some point that a single jetbike is not worth taking over a leman russ lmao. I am just guessing about costs btw fellas. I think the main appeal to me at least is the idea of having an all elite infantry army that fits into a shoebox so I can basically travel with it easily enough and still have some fun casual games. In normal circumstances people will just cherry pick the characters that pump their list the best. Probably gona see the Vexiller in just about every imperial soup army from now til 9th.
The custodians on foot still suck. Even with -1 to be hit and 4++, they are still slow guys with 3 attacks a piece that are marginally more deadly than a bullgryn. Now the 5++ invul banner with bullgryns ... I mean holy crap. Bullgryns with a native 3++ is just LOL. You can either strategem or psychic power into +1 to saves from there.
Yea, you could already do this with celestine though, I just use my Bulgryn with a primaris psycher and I have yet to lose that unit. I personally wouldn't pull that as I don't need to but I can see that adding another way to skin the cat for inperial soup armies in tournaments. I wonder what twisted combo appears at the LVO under the radar.
Chaos is the army I would ACTUALLY be worried about at the LVO. Their soup is way worse with the daemon dex out.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm not complaining that Custodes got wrecked, I'm just reporting that it happened. Magnus and Mortal wounds are kind of the exact anti-custodes.
It's swinging back a little, I guess? Tzaans got battle shocked and chopped, Vortex Beast is down and Landraider is out of combat, but Magnus is solo'ing a huge chunk of the Custodes army.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm not complaining that Custodes got wrecked, I'm just reporting that it happened. Magnus and Mortal wounds are kind of the exact anti-custodes.
It's swinging back a little, I guess? Tzaans got battle shocked and chopped, Vortex Beast is down and Landraider is out of combat, but Magnus is solo'ing a huge chunk of the Custodes army.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm not complaining that Custodes got wrecked, I'm just reporting that it happened. Magnus and Mortal wounds are kind of the exact anti-custodes.
It's swinging back a little, I guess? Tzaans got battle shocked and chopped, Vortex Beast is down and Landraider is out of combat, but Magnus is solo'ing a huge chunk of the Custodes army.
Magnus is also down to 2W.
Oh that's big! I thought he was at 12. I can't make out the wound dice on my screen. And now the stream seems frozen?
At least have the decency to not drop fething Magnus against an obvious "advertising army" of custodes. You'd think they would have made it fun Vs fun rather than the obvious serious list the Tzeench one was...
Thats the problem, GW still thinks that the primarchs are fun for the game when in reality they do the opposite. I am not saying you can't beat them for the record, but in order to beat them you need to play the game in an entirely different way then GW wants to admit. All three basically ruin balance in pick up games.
the bigger issues with primarchs will come when there are 10+ of them running around. Hope ya'll are excited.
I personally would like to see them restricted for narrative play where they should be OP. But I am sure I'll get attacked on that view lol.
Lanlaorn wrote: Lol, the commentators made it to the beginning of turn 2 before beginning making excuses for the Custodes performance and saying "well you really should ally in some Astra Militarum with them".
Yea, of course every elite army should just play Guard instead.
Thats how it starts, you take 30% guard then 50% then you realize at some point that a single jetbike is not worth taking over a leman russ lmao. I am just guessing about costs btw fellas. I think the main appeal to me at least is the idea of having an all elite infantry army that fits into a shoebox so I can basically travel with it easily enough and still have some fun casual games. In normal circumstances people will just cherry pick the characters that pump their list the best. Probably gona see the Vexiller in just about every imperial soup army from now til 9th.
The custodians on foot still suck. Even with -1 to be hit and 4++, they are still slow guys with 3 attacks a piece that are marginally more deadly than a bullgryn. Now the 5++ invul banner with bullgryns ... I mean holy crap. Bullgryns with a native 3++ is just LOL. You can either strategem or psychic power into +1 to saves from there.
Yea, you could already do this with celestine though, I just use my Bulgryn with a primaris psycher and I have yet to lose that unit. I personally wouldn't pull that as I don't need to but I can see that adding another way to skin the cat for inperial soup armies in tournaments. I wonder what twisted combo appears at the LVO under the radar.
Chaos is the army I would ACTUALLY be worried about at the LVO. Their soup is way worse with the daemon dex out.
Not disagreeing with the fact that chaos soup is incredible in the slightest, but I will say a FAQ of the demon codex is going to kill most of the problems it made. At least thats something I am willing to bank on.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Well unless custodies are even stronger than we're lead to believe, they look like they're boned.
You're kidding? They seem fine so far. We'll have to wait to see if they actually get into the tippy-top tier but they're pretty obviously going to be in the "above average" category based on these reveals and the leaks we have so far.
19 models in 2k in edition of hordes rule does look pretty grim even outside this game. It's still just 2+/4++ at best. On 19 models. In edition that favours hordes from the get-go. In edition where durability isn't really about T and save but about # of models. IG trooper=more durable than terminator. If custodes are to be survivable for their points poor normal terminators are going to pale in comparison.
Land Raider is just blowing things apart unchallenged now, that and the remaining 5 Custodes are just wearing down the 1K Sons and looks like they are moving to an objectives win...except the 1K sons just used a relic to teleport onto a back objective.
Alendrel wrote: Land Raider is just blowing things apart unchallenged now, that and the remaining 5 Custodes are just wearing down the 1K Sons and looks like they are moving to an objectives win...except the 1K sons just used a relic to teleport onto a back objective.
no matter who wins it sure sounds like these armies are pretty balanced, as it could be anyones game.
At least have the decency to not drop fething Magnus against an obvious "advertising army" of custodes. You'd think they would have made it fun Vs fun rather than the obvious serious list the Tzeench one was...
Thats the problem, GW still thinks that the primarchs are fun for the game when in reality they do the opposite. I am not saying you can't beat them for the record, but in order to beat them you need to play the game in an entirely different way then GW wants to admit. All three basically ruin balance in pick up games.
the bigger issues with primarchs will come when there are 10+ of them running around. Hope ya'll are excited.
I personally would like to see them restricted for narrative play where they should be OP. But I am sure I'll get attacked on that view lol.
I actually 100% agree with you here and to be honest if like to see HQs get actual options back and all named characters be narrative only, though I'll jump in the bunker and duck with you haha
I actually 100% agree with you here and to be honest if like to see HQs get actual options back and all named characters be narrative only, though I'll jump in the bunker and duck with you haha
Alas that would reduce chances special characters could be used which means less sales which means GW won't be doing it. They put in super heavies on normal games rather than apoc precisely to make sure everybody can use them so that they get more sales. When it was apoc only which were rare not many had need for super heavy. Now they are every day thing. Guess which one means more sales?
I actually 100% agree with you here and to be honest if like to see HQs get actual options back and all named characters be narrative only, though I'll jump in the bunker and duck with you haha
Alas that would reduce chances special characters could be used which means less sales which means GW won't be doing it. They put in super heavies on normal games rather than apoc precisely to make sure everybody can use them so that they get more sales. When it was apoc only which were rare not many had need for super heavy. Now they are every day thing. Guess which one means more sales?
Yeah sadly this is the case, my gaming group has a fair few new players so they've all jumped on the shiny special characters where the veterans miss making their own HQ choices the way they like them rather than building a force around an existing character, nearly every marine army takes their chapter master along now
Cool as these Codex previews are, I really wish they'd give us a better look at the miniatures. The veteran Custodes kit looks great, but we have 1 pic.
Final is 7-3 1K Sons, AC just couldn't get on enough objectives.
GAME NOTES
1K Sons codex coming soon/quickly but can’t say exactly when. Being very cagey about 1K Sons info beyond what’s directly relevant to the game. 1K Sons Codex explains why/how they have Hellbrutes
Commentator says all three bikes have salvo launchers (posted list had two with launchers, one with hurricane bolters) – List confirmed as correct
Magnus WT: Knows an additional psychic power (4 total)
Cultists and Predator only units in list being played with no invul
Misaercordiae is confirmed as an extra attack with it in addition to bearer’s attacks with main weapon
Magnus confirmed still LoW, not HQ as shown on the WHC army list
1K Son Stratagem for a Webway deep strike
Tzaangor blades are -1 AP, taken in lieu of pistols. Tzaangor brayhorns +1 to charge
Mutalith regens 1W a turn, on flyer size base (no flight stand though), grants bonuses to army, can explode when killed. Wounded Mutalith is S7 A4. Mutalith has a table of powers it can use/roll on each turn. One is reroll charges.
Tzaangor have Death to False Emperor
Rubrics and Scarabs have access to spells beyond Smite
Jetbikes have 4W, 80 points before weapons, squad size 3-10
Legion Trait is +6” to spell range
Spell: target unit is -1 to hit
Spell: caster gets a free reroll
Magnus’s invul cannot rerolled
Death Hex – 8+ to cast, target unit loses invuls
Tzaangor Shaman casting Doombolt, does damage and halves M. Tzaangor Shaman can reroll its first failed cast in the game. Sounds like may have access to the daemon Tzeentch discipline? Could be entirely off base.
Dark Matter Crystal – 1K Sons relic that picks a unit up and redploys it via Deep Strike, one use
Vexilla Teleport Homer Stratagem (?CP) – Deep striking unit can arrive within X” of vexilla and is limited to only having to be more than 3” from enemy. Just used it to drop Trajaan down next to Magnus
AC Termies are confirmed as having deep strike built in, have the 5++ from Aegis, not a 4++ base. Armor grants the extra W and native Deep Strike
1K Sons Stratagem to improve psychic test(s) – no details
Vexillus Praetor 5W, or 6W in Allarus armor
Tzaangor Enlightened have 3 equipment options, fatecaster greatbows (D2 looks like) and two others to be revealed later. Max Size 9. “Very fast”, compared them to Windrunners
Veterans of the Long War is in for 1K Sons
AC Stratagem: Unflinching (?CP) – Overwatch on 5+
Custodian Guard can go up to 10, Misercordiaers are optional and can be taken even with sentinel sword + shield
Castellan axes have the same shooting profile as guardian spears
Interesting game. Not sure we'll have to worry about a new OP army with Custodes since their lack of board control is glaring. Indeed, they look like a straight combat army with no psychic powers and their stats but at least they don't get wasted specialist rules like GKs so I think they'll see play.
Speaking of which, the army in general seems a bit too samey compared to the FW Custodes. Warders are just slightly more elite custodian guard, alarus add deep strike and their wrist launcher, but are still 2+/4++ spearmen... And as the bikes are less shooty than the FW variants they fall back on their melee as their defining trait.
They need the promised FW document for fractionally more troop distinction and a lot more dread and vehicle definition ASAP.
Honestly I'm kind of happy that the Allarus are so similar to the baseline Custodes, makes justifying using their rules for a teeny-weeny army of truescale Custodes(because of course I have to do that to go with my Primaris-based truescale Marines, I'm evidently a miniatures masochist ) models easier.
buddha wrote: Interesting game. Not sure we'll have to worry about a new OP army with Custodes since their lack of board control is glaring. Indeed, they look like a straight combat army with no psychic powers and their stats but at least they don't get wasted specialist rules like GKs so I think they'll see play.
Hmm, I think an optimized list (like replacing the Landraider with another squad of bikes) might actually be able to project. We'll have to see. I'd say they're definitely competitive with allies though.
My current idea, without knowing more, is 2 Battalions. 6x3 Custodes in min squads of 2 Shields 1 Spear, Captains on Bikes, Vexilla, rest of the points on bikes.
looking at the relics, I'm having a hard time deciding. Usually there are one or two major standouts, but these mostly look very balanced to each other.
The orbital bombardment Vexillia, lightning bolt Vexillia, and super terminator grenade launcher all add shooting to an army that is short on it.
The "deny the witch" Vexillia also adds psychic defense to an army that desperately needs it.
The jetbike is nice, but the character all ready has a a 4++, so not much gain.
praetorian plate looks gimmicky, but could be useful.
I'm starting to think that taking a Battalion of Custodes with a Supreme Command Detachment of 3 psykers and a Culexus could actually do pretty good. You pick powerhouse/mobile casters like Voldus and Mephiston, the Culexus gives enemies a penalty to manifest, and all the sudden they're a lot more protected from mortal wounds while still being elite.
Audustum wrote: I'm starting to think that taking a Battalion of Custodes with a Supreme Command Detachment of 3 psykers and a Culexus could actually do pretty good. You pick powerhouse/mobile casters like Voldus and Mephiston, the Culexus gives enemies a penalty to manifest, and all the sudden they're a lot more protected from mortal wounds while still being elite.
another idea if you wanna have a fluffy detachment is a vanguard detachment of greyfax and a sister of silence squad, take a rhino with the sisters and they can get into place pretty quick etc. you're basicly for the group scarificing a single squad of custodes. not too bad,
Audustum wrote: I'm starting to think that taking a Battalion of Custodes with a Supreme Command Detachment of 3 psykers and a Culexus could actually do pretty good. You pick powerhouse/mobile casters like Voldus and Mephiston, the Culexus gives enemies a penalty to manifest, and all the sudden they're a lot more protected from mortal wounds while still being elite.
another idea if you wanna have a fluffy detachment is a vanguard detachment of greyfax and a sister of silence squad, take a rhino with the sisters and they can get into place pretty quick etc. you're basicly for the group scarificing a single squad of custodes. not too bad,
I like the idea a lot thematically, but I worry the SoS will get T1 nuked without the Character rule.
I really want to know if Misericordia are a regular weapon or forced to make a single attack only, because there's a few scenarios where that could become very important.
changemod wrote: I really want to know if Misericordia are a regular weapon or forced to make a single attack only, because there's a few scenarios where that could become very important.
I'd say they're definitely a regular weapon. But they also just give an extra attack with its profile
changemod wrote: I really want to know if Misericordia are a regular weapon or forced to make a single attack only, because there's a few scenarios where that could become very important.
I'd say they're definitely a regular weapon. But they also just give an extra attack with its profile
It was specified to be like a chainsword, either +1 attack with profile or if you had another weapon +1 attack at Str User AP -2 D1.
So it seems that it's the "power knife" that we had for old vexilla bearers. The good news is this means that if Saggitarum guard will now be much more potent if they get transferred over (which they're probably on the list to, they don't overlap with any GW products).
Primaris Psyker (for +1 save or -1 to be hit)
Priest
6x brute shield + maul bullgryn
5++ Vexilum custode
What exactly is that supposed to do tho? Expensive hard to kill units that just get ignored.
Are you serious? Because bulgryn are not that expensive for what they do. I run 5 in my guard list and they anchor my army and are IMO one of the best units in the game.
changemod wrote: I really want to know if Misericordia are a regular weapon or forced to make a single attack only, because there's a few scenarios where that could become very important.
I'd say they're definitely a regular weapon. But they also just give an extra attack with its profile
It was specified to be like a chainsword, either +1 attack with profile or if you had another weapon +1 attack at Str User AP -2 D1.
So it seems that it's the "power knife" that we had for old vexilla bearers. The good news is this means that if Saggitarum guard will now be much more potent if they get transferred over (which they're probably on the list to, they don't overlap with any GW products).
As much as I'd love my Sagittarum to make the jump to 40k, I'm staying pessimistic about it due to their adrathic weaponry making them on the 'less likely' list :/
changemod wrote: I really want to know if Misericordia are a regular weapon or forced to make a single attack only, because there's a few scenarios where that could become very important.
I'd say they're definitely a regular weapon. But they also just give an extra attack with its profile
It was specified to be like a chainsword, either +1 attack with profile or if you had another weapon +1 attack at Str User AP -2 D1.
So it seems that it's the "power knife" that we had for old vexilla bearers. The good news is this means that if Saggitarum guard will now be much more potent if they get transferred over (which they're probably on the list to, they don't overlap with any GW products).
As much as I'd love my Sagittarum to make the jump to 40k, I'm staying pessimistic about it due to their adrathic weaponry making them on the 'less likely' list :/
Crap forgot about the 2nd firing profile, but to be fair it's not an Adrathic weapon, it's a disintegration beam which already has a profile in Imperial Index I for the Imperial space marine. Granted the profiles are identical but I think there's a reason they didn't just say an Adrastus Bolt Caliver is a combi weapon with an adrastic weapon, instead giving it a complete independent secondary profile rather than a one shot.
Sadly I'm beginning to worry more and more about the poor chances of grav vehicles getting ported over even though they don't really overlap much with the GW range. But we're almost certain the dreadnoughts will even though there's already a dread in the GW range. I think they're just gonna make independent decisions on what the custodes still have and have mothballed based on their own fluff ideas rather than what can fill what role and what would complete the range.
Getting a little fed up with FW post Bligh. Alan your baby is not in as good hands as it once was.
changemod wrote: I really want to know if Misericordia are a regular weapon or forced to make a single attack only, because there's a few scenarios where that could become very important.
I'd say they're definitely a regular weapon. But they also just give an extra attack with its profile
It was specified to be like a chainsword, either +1 attack with profile or if you had another weapon +1 attack at Str User AP -2 D1.
So it seems that it's the "power knife" that we had for old vexilla bearers. The good news is this means that if Saggitarum guard will now be much more potent if they get transferred over (which they're probably on the list to, they don't overlap with any GW products).
As much as I'd love my Sagittarum to make the jump to 40k, I'm staying pessimistic about it due to their adrathic weaponry making them on the 'less likely' list :/
Crap forgot about the 2nd firing profile, but to be fair it's not an Adrathic weapon, it's a disintegration beam which already has a profile in Imperial Index I for the Imperial space marine. Granted the profiles are identical but I think there's a reason they didn't just say an Adrastus Bolt Caliver is a combi weapon with an adrastic weapon, instead giving it a complete independent secondary profile rather than a one shot.
Sadly I'm beginning to worry more and more about the poor chances of grav vehicles getting ported over even though they don't really overlap much with the GW range. But we're almost certain the dreadnoughts will even though there's already a dread in the GW range. I think they're just gonna make independent decisions on what the custodes still have and have mothballed based on their own fluff ideas rather than what can fill what role and what would complete the range.
Getting a little fed up with FW post Bligh. Alan your baby is not in as good hands as it once was.
I agree about the weirdness with FW lately :/
But the disintegration beam is still an Adrathic weapon, lore wise. And it specifically mentions it being as such in the various lore parts of the unit/weapon in book 7
It sounds weird, but I don't really even care about the secondary firing mode on the Sagittarum guard. I just want them to be able to shred infantry, and having the equivalent of an assault heavy bolter on a large unit would do the trick.
Where normal Custodes are assault oriented with an ability to shoot, Sagittarum with Misericordia would be a shooty unit that is still very much able to assault. Heck, they'd still have 4 St5 Ap3 attacks each, and that's nothing to laugh at.
cuda1179 wrote: It sounds weird, but I don't really even care about the secondary firing mode on the Sagittarum guard. I just want them to be able to shred infantry, and having the equivalent of an assault heavy bolter on a large unit would do the trick.
Where normal Custodes are assault oriented with an ability to shoot, Sagittarum with Misericordia would be a shooty unit that is still very much able to assault. Heck, they'd still have 4 St5 Ap3 attacks each, and that's nothing to laugh at.
The Adrastus bolt caliver is still a heavy weapon not assault though so they'd only be hitting on 3+, which would be a bit of a pain considering how expensive they are. Granted the Miserocordia would make them formidable in melee I don't think they'd be quite enough without their secondary fire mode.
Personally I'd probably take a Calidus over them for the points every day of the week. If you want anti infantry at range, the bikes with hurricane bolters should be more than enough and won't cost much more than a 5 man squad of Sagittarum.
Primaris Psyker (for +1 save or -1 to be hit) Priest 6x brute shield + maul bullgryn 5++ Vexilum custode
What exactly is that supposed to do tho? Expensive hard to kill units that just get ignored.
Are you serious? Because bulgryn are not that expensive for what they do. I run 5 in my guard list and they anchor my army and are IMO one of the best units in the game.
Yeah, point for point they are a tier 1 melee unit. THey can absorb a primarch charge. They threaten everything in the game in melee. They are also the standard that I will just these custodes by. Custodes need to do something that bullgryn won't.
I wonder if the Shield Captain on jetbike will be limited to only having the Lance? It seems to be the same thing as a Guardian Spear, but without shooting. I'd prefer to have an additional shooting attack if they can take it.
cuda1179 wrote: I wonder if the Shield Captain on jetbike will be limited to only having the Lance? It seems to be the same thing as a Guardian Spear, but without shooting. I'd prefer to have an additional shooting attack if they can take it.
cuda1179 wrote: I wonder if the Shield Captain on jetbike will be limited to only having the Lance? It seems to be the same thing as a Guardian Spear, but without shooting. I'd prefer to have an additional shooting attack if they can take it.
a hurrican bolter ain't eneugh dakka for you?
You can never have enough dakka when you want to deal with a Horde. Honestly, I just thought the extra shots would complement the hurricane bolter, especially with the reroll to hit for being a shield captian.
On a model with such great mobility and CC power, surely rerolls to wound would be more valuable than another 2 spear-bolter shots?
Im looking forward to shield-captains on bikes probably more than the regular unit itself, the protection of being a character gives them the valuable extra 1 or 2 turns behind a wall of storm shields before being exposed to the masses of lascannons and plasma. Also that relic jet bike is sweet - 3+ invuln means you can happily take him as an HQ in a soup detachment, as hes unaffected by the loss of the 'chapter-tactic' (what do we call these things??)
I’m starting to warm towards the idea of just running a supreme command detachment of AC. 3 HQs, 1 or 2 on bikes, and one with the plate relic, alongside a Vexilla. Then build a force up with the remaining points that brings the firepower and board control.
The stratagem that lets you teleport near a Vexilla looks seriously interesting. It’s probably the best use of terminators.
A vexilla can get pretty close to an enemy quite easily, especially if he advances. Pure Custodes armies will probably want more than one of them as well. Then the termites can drop in and charge very reliably.
It’s probably a good thing that there’s no vexilla on bike. That would be a bit too easy.
I think that the best way to run Custodes is to have quite a lot of them. Say around 30 models. It’s impossible to deny that some kind of allied units to hold objectives, screen, and provide a bit of long-ranged firepower would be good. IG are the obvious answer here, though not the only option - obviously.
Overall I’m not sold either way. But we just watched a very average pure Custodes army only just lose to what was supposedly a seriously nasty Tsons list, controlled by a better player. That suggests that Custodes could be a thing.
Really looking like I'm gonna take the Custodes plunge.
Had three sets of Prospero worth that I sold, but the kits were fun to build. And the teeny model count suggests I'll actually get it all painted this time around (will be looked to FW for my Landraiders and Contemptors though. The plastic ones look much too plain for Custodes).
Had three sets of Prospero worth that I sold, but the kits were fun to build. And the teeny model count suggests I'll actually get it all painted this time around (will be looked to FW for my Landraiders and Contemptors though. The plastic ones look much too plain for Custodes).
Pre-order is this weekend, yes?
yeah pre-orders this weekend. and you might not have a choice if you want a land raider. GW's been out of god hammer LRs for awhile. (although the chaos one is still avaliable so I suppose you could use that)
I don't really think the FW stuff is any less plain than GW's LRs. If anything, FW vehicles tend to be a bit less elaborate and a bit more gritty and realistic than GW ones.
If you're near warhammer world, you could pick up their fancy special character one. It comes with a rhino Primaris and it's £75 for the two, which isn't actually bad.
They both have all kinds of fancy details on, which could make them suitable for a Custodes LR.
I'm not sure it's actually worth bringing one still, but there are options on how to get hold of one. Ebay is another.
I don't think custodes will be a competetice choice pure. But there is definately a few good options. I am hoping and praying the bikes are good. I dig jetbikes
Mandragola wrote: I don't really think the FW stuff is any less plain than GW's LRs. If anything, FW vehicles tend to be a bit less elaborate and a bit more gritty and realistic than GW ones.
If you're near warhammer world, you could pick up their fancy special character one. It comes with a rhino Primaris and it's £75 for the two, which isn't actually bad.
They both have all kinds of fancy details on, which could make them suitable for a Custodes LR.
I'm not sure it's actually worth bringing one still, but there are options on how to get hold of one. Ebay is another.
They showed a good number of schemes on the stream yesterday, but most of it was just different colored cloth. The armor, canonically, was either white, gold or black in almost all instances iirc.
If Custodes stay around 50 point a model anyone else thinking just take like 30 Custodes plus a few HQs and just say to your opponent "deal with that." Solid saves, stats, offense, defense, and deepstrike seems pretty scary.
Primaris Psyker (for +1 save or -1 to be hit)
Priest
6x brute shield + maul bullgryn
5++ Vexilum custode
This is exactly what I was thinking actually.. 6 bullgryns with slab shields and power mauls is about 250 pts. Add in the pysker, priest, and Praetor with Vexilla, and I'm guessing this will total just under 500 pts. In a standard 2k army, that's only a quarter of the army, leaving lots of room for other stuff/detachments. You're talking models with base stats very similar to custodes in melee, for a much lower cost, and with a 2+ invul save instead of a 3+. Honestly, it might even be worth running a full 10 man squad of bullgryns like this and literally just moving them up the center of the board for complete denial of it.
It's not the fastest death star unit, and maybe not the best there has ever been, but it is definitely a death star unit and the premise worries me.
People are already whiny about IG infantry because they're scarred from conscripts, imagine how annoying it's going to be when you're opponent shoves as many IG infantry or vet squads as they can within 9" of the vexilla. You thought 5+ armor 4ppm was durable? Try 5+ invuls, with potential of buffs from psykers.
On a lighter note.. my buddy and I decided I should paint a squad of these bullgryns gold like the custodes, and switch out the slab shield bits for those custodes tower shield bits for EXTRA heresy, to make "Custodgryns". The thought of barely tolerable abhumans working alongside custodes is just hilarious.
buddha wrote: If Custodes stay around 50 point a model anyone else thinking just take like 30 Custodes plus a few HQs and just say to your opponent "deal with that." Solid saves, stats, offense, defense, and deepstrike seems pretty scary.
Actually....yes. I was thinking the same thing. You might have room to throw in a dreadnought too.
Something else I was thinking. What I'd like to call the "Custodes bomb". 10 Terminators, Terminator with Vexillia, and one unit of 10 Guardians all deepstriking together, then split up the terminators. You'd have one blob squad and 11 single model units in the enemy's backfield.
They showed a good number of schemes on the stream yesterday, but most of it was just different colored cloth. The armor, canonically, was either white, gold or black in almost all instances iirc.
buddha wrote: If Custodes stay around 50 point a model anyone else thinking just take like 30 Custodes plus a few HQs and just say to your opponent "deal with that." Solid saves, stats, offense, defense, and deepstrike seems pretty scary.
Actually....yes. I was thinking the same thing. You might have room to throw in a dreadnought too.
Something else I was thinking. What I'd like to call the "Custodes bomb". 10 Terminators, Terminator with Vexillia, and one unit of 10 Guardians all deepstriking together, then split up the terminators. You'd have one blob squad and 11 single model units in the enemy's backfield.
Yeah I think I'd recommend a similar approach. Maybe start out with 4x5 Custodian guard with spears and two Vexilas giving the enemy -1 to hit them all.
A big squad of terminators to deep strike in might work well. You could try and have a vexilla race forward so you could bring them into combat straight away when they appeared.
Or, you could just take more Custodian Guard. That might well be the best plan.
I'll be interested to see how the characters compare to the normal guys. Normal guys are so expensive, and so good, that characters might not be much more expensive or better. If a standard jetbiker costs 80 points and a captain on a jetbike costs <150, it might make more sense to build all jetbikes as captains.
Oh, and that fluff bit about retired Custodes becoming Custodes spies was pretty questionable. I'm sure that eight feet tall guy in black robes is not suspicious at all...
Crimson wrote: Oh, and that fluff bit about retired Custodes becoming Custodes spies was pretty questionable. I'm sure that eight feet tall guy in black robes is not suspicious at all...
ritualnet wrote: Do you think it will be possible to make a 500pt matched play force with just Custodes?
Low model count makes them very attractive to me, even though they look like stormcast with guns.
Also, will there be different paint schemes? I was thinking a ceramic white design?
There will be other paint schemes in Codex, though you can paint any color you want anyway.
You could make a Patrol detachment with 500 absolutely!
Yeah, they said they will have small minimum squad sizes (3 instead of the usual 5), so 500 points should be doable
I'm not a fan of marines (although the fluff behind some of the chapters is great), but this might get me into some games, while I get my genestealer cults up and operational. Didn't someone say one box of custard guards can make a patrol detachment?
In 30k their are 'Falsehoods' that enable a wearer to hid e his appearance. Maybe they do this?
Or only go to/work in areas where it can be explained? Giant servitors for example
ritualnet wrote: Do you think it will be possible to make a 500pt matched play force with just Custodes?
Low model count makes them very attractive to me, even though they look like stormcast with guns.
Also, will there be different paint schemes? I was thinking a ceramic white design?
There will be other paint schemes in Codex, though you can paint any color you want anyway.
You could make a Patrol detachment with 500 absolutely!
Yeah, they said they will have small minimum squad sizes (3 instead of the usual 5), so 500 points should be doable
I'm not a fan of marines (although the fluff behind some of the chapters is great), but this might get me into some games, while I get my genestealer cults up and operational. Didn't someone say one box of custard guards can make a patrol detachment?
ritualnet wrote: Do you think it will be possible to make a 500pt matched play force with just Custodes?
Low model count makes them very attractive to me, even though they look like stormcast with guns.
Also, will there be different paint schemes? I was thinking a ceramic white design?
There will be other paint schemes in Codex, though you can paint any color you want anyway.
You could make a Patrol detachment with 500 absolutely!
Yeah, they said they will have small minimum squad sizes (3 instead of the usual 5), so 500 points should be doable
I'm not a fan of marines (although the fluff behind some of the chapters is great), but this might get me into some games, while I get my genestealer cults up and operational. Didn't someone say one box of custard guards can make a patrol detachment?
Crimson wrote: Oh, and that fluff bit about retired Custodes becoming Custodes spies was pretty questionable. I'm sure that eight feet tall guy in black robes is not suspicious at all...
Yeah, that is a bit of a plot hole.
This is the same nonsense that happens whenever talking about Alpha Legion or the Fallen.
You don't necessarily have to blend in to be a spy or part of a spy network.
ImAGeek wrote: From Wildweasel on Bolter and Chainsword:
LORE SHOW NOTES!
Do not die of old age, but do eventually slow some with age (after centuries or millennia). Once they do, they retire from active military duty, turning their wargear over to their order, and go forth into the Imperium in secret, running the Custodes spy networks.
So according to this, they would be the equivalent of M and not 007.
Crimson wrote: Oh, and that fluff bit about retired Custodes becoming Custodes spies was pretty questionable. I'm sure that eight feet tall guy in black robes is not suspicious at all...
Yeah, that is a bit of a plot hole.
This is the same nonsense that happens whenever talking about Alpha Legion or the Fallen.
You don't necessarily have to blend in to be a spy or part of a spy network.
Indeed. Running a network, and being Austin are two very different things.
Crimson wrote: Oh, and that fluff bit about retired Custodes becoming Custodes spies was pretty questionable. I'm sure that eight feet tall guy in black robes is not suspicious at all...
I doubt the retired custodes is the one actually doing the act of spying... you know. I assume is something like Genestealer Cults, with the "Custodes" being the Patriarch. But more loyalist of course.
They showed a good number of schemes on the stream yesterday, but most of it was just different colored cloth. The armor, canonically, was either white, gold or black in almost all instances iirc.