Galas wrote: I like those conspiracy theories. They work both if a new model has bad or good rules at release, and if a old model has bad or good rules.
They cover all possibilities!
I mean, duh. If your assertion isn't entirely unfalsifiable, you can't say "i told you so" when you're proven right AND when you're proven wrong.
Has the Ballistic Skill of any of the suits improved?
Nothing better than 4+. Is that no change?
How have points changed for Crisis Suits?
No.
Riptide and broadsides went down as mentioned, nothing else.
Can Commanders still take four weapon options?
Think so.
Can Hammerheads move and shoot without the -1 to hit penalty?
What do you mean? I dont see any penalty removers if you are asking that.
Have there been any changes to Kroot? Point changes, infiltration rules, etc.
krootox riders gain 1 wound.
shaper lost pulse carbine
Wht kind of infiltration change?
Answers to any or all of those would be appreciated! Thanks!
Has the Ballistic Skill of any of the suits improved?
Nothing better than 4+. Is that no change?
How have points changed for Crisis Suits?
No.
Riptide and broadsides went down as mentioned, nothing else.
Can Commanders still take four weapon options?
Think so.
Can Hammerheads move and shoot without the -1 to hit penalty?
What do you mean? I dont see any penalty removers if you are asking that.
Have there been any changes to Kroot? Point changes, infiltration rules, etc.
krootox riders gain 1 wound.
shaper lost pulse carbine
Wht kind of infiltration change?
Answers to any or all of those would be appreciated! Thanks!
what I want to know as it would tell us everything most tau players would want to know.
can you post the stat blocks for the rip tide weapons?
If not too much trouble the stat blocks for the missile pods as well.
they may not of changed cost but they may be different then they used to be.
Has the Ballistic Skill of any of the suits improved?
Nothing better than 4+. Is that no change?
How have points changed for Crisis Suits?
No.
Riptide and broadsides went down as mentioned, nothing else.
Can Commanders still take four weapon options?
Think so.
Can Hammerheads move and shoot without the -1 to hit penalty?
What do you mean? I dont see any penalty removers if you are asking that.
Have there been any changes to Kroot? Point changes, infiltration rules, etc.
krootox riders gain 1 wound.
shaper lost pulse carbine
Wht kind of infiltration change?
Answers to any or all of those would be appreciated! Thanks!
May you share us the profile of Riptide weapons pleaseee.
ATS (Ghostkeel , SS, Riptide) 18
ATS (all others ) +4
Counterfire Defense +5
EWO (Ghostkeel, SS, Riptide) 10
EWO (all others) -3
Multi tracker (all) 10
shield gen (ss) 40
shield gen (all others including ghostkeel now) 8
that change to shield cost on ghost keel is a pretty nice cost drop
i'm getting 166 for a 2x burst cannon fusion collider ghostkeel with shield and stim. if the ridiculous cost of the stealth drones dropped i'd be happy
The decrease on Fire Warriors is crazy good. Borkan Fire Warrior spam looked pretty darn nifty before the points drop. With any luck, we'll have some nice strategems for FW and can run multiple battalions or even a Brigade for massive CP.
No change to crisis suits.
No change to missile pods or the rest of the weapons except burst cannons.
ATS increased price.
Fire Warriors decreased price.
Devilfish decreased price.
Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
FirePainter wrote: No change to crisis suits.
No change to missile pods or the rest of the weapons except burst cannons.
ATS increased price.
Fire Warriors decreased price.
Devilfish decreased price.
Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
i'll be honest i was running the bare minimum squads possible for troops, 3 5 man squads, they needed some help
Seeker Missiles S8 -2 D6dmg Cyclic Ion Blaster 3 shots instead of D3 . Overcharge mode.
Cyclic Ion Raker 6 shots instead of D6 . Overcharge mode.
HBC (one profile only now ) 36" 12 shots S6 -1 2dmg
High Intensity Plasma Rifle (new) 30" RF1 6 -4 1
Ion Accelerator ( only normal and overcharge )
-72" Heavy D6 S8 -3 d3dmg
-72" Heavy D6 S9 -3 3dmg (self mortal wound on roll of 1)
Ion Cannon D6 instead of D3 perm for overcharged.
Ion Rifle (overcharged) 2dmg instead of 1
Longshot pulse. On a wound roll of 6, additional 1 Mortal Wound dmg.
Pulse Driver Cannon D6 instead of D3
Dawn Blade +3 S
EWO have additional clause of -1 to hit when being used.
Multitracker now only works on units with 5 or more models.
Markerlight table 3 and 4 swap, 3 is now ignore cover.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Think it's a pretty decent codex. Pure suit users will be a bit disappointed imo, more mixed armies, and options. Just not Dark Reapers level , WHICH IS good.
FirePainter wrote: No change to crisis suits.
No change to missile pods or the rest of the weapons except burst cannons.
ATS increased price.
Fire Warriors decreased price.
Devilfish decreased price.
Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
i'll be honest i was running the bare minimum squads possible for troops, 3 5 man squads, they needed some help
True. Our troops we're pretty bad. But combine the sept buffs for fire warriors, no point drop for suits, and no point drop on suit weapons. You won't see crisis suits except for commanders.
These weapon profiles got me hyped. Thank you xxhikaru123! Could you tell what Riptides Nova reactor does now? There seems to be no nova profiles for those weapons.
Any change to rail rifles? you know the small ones. Also what about piranhas?
Overall, things look good I'd say, but the crisis suits are gonna be sidelined for sure. Cheaper crisis and more expensive commanders would have solved commander spam without the restriction.
That's incredibly disappointing about crisis suits. They're so painfully overcosted. I mean, not to Riptide level, but they need a solid 15 pt drop to even be usable. Bah. Oh well, I'll reserve judgement for the release, but that one stings.
Wow, so that meshes with the previous rumor regarding the HBC. At 250pts plus upgrades I can see Riptides being very worthwhile. That's a freaking lot of firepower.
MilkmanAl wrote: Wow, so that meshes with the previous rumor regarding the HBC. At 250pts plus upgrades I can see Riptides being very worthwhile. That's a freaking lot of firepower.
I will probably chill for a bit, good to let GW release some.
The codex is great for combined arms Tau of various sorts. Probably even awesome for some combination. But pure crisis armies are gonna be disappointed
So, just to confirm, there are no changes to Crisis Suits, either in rules or points cost? Also, I know you already listed the points drops for AFBs and BCs, but are there any points changes for the other Crisis weapons? Missile Pods, Plasma Rifles, CIBs, Flamers, or Fusion Blasters?
Also, any chance on hearing about some of the strategems we have coming our way?
GI_Redshirt wrote: So, just to confirm, there are no changes to Crisis Suits, either in rules or points cost? Also, I know you already listed the points drops for AFBs and BCs, but are there any points changes for the other Crisis weapons? Missile Pods, Plasma Rifles, CIBs, Flamers, or Fusion Blasters?
Also, any chance on hearing about some of the strategems we have coming our way?
Thanks for all the info man, you rock!
I only list differences and changes. stop trying to make me put changes where they aren't. Crisis have fallen tremendously in terms of desirability, not because they got nerf, everything else got better.
15 . Btw dont see quotes from my points/changes lists, because i do go back to edit / update them. Quotes only captures the original post, which may leave stuff out.
xxhikaru123 wrote: I will probably chill for a bit, good to let GW release some.
The codex is great for combined arms Tau of various sorts. Probably even awesome for some combination. But pure crisis armies are gonna be disappointed
Well a squad of burst cannon crisis suits would drop to 198 with the burst cannon cost reduction, could take the armor and still be ahead of what they cost now....i guess...
There's still probably some uses for flamer crisis suits. As a delivery platform they are great, whether it's drones or flamers, depending if you are able to place homing beacon or not.
FirePainter wrote: Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
Or maybe they just want Suits to be an elite unit, whereas the majority of Tau forces be their - wait for it - troops!
Ignoring that the Farsight playstyle is fairly long established, taking less of something overpriced doesn't make it better, it just wastes less of your list.
Honestly straight from the index I'm not really sure what they were thinking in not improving BS to more fluff accurate levels. Nullifying markerlights from their prior easy-access to BS2 format and taking out JSJ were sensible balance moves, but without markers Tau are an elite shooting force with nonelite shooting skill.
Man. I know probably this Codex will not be the hotness for heavy crisis suit armies, but for my heavy infantry army that relies in Broadsides and tanks for support? This is a god-send!
I'll wait for the full Codex to see how playable my combined arm style of Tau army with breachers and devilfishes work... but for now it looks promising.
I like theres not only point changes but too changes to weapon profiles.
FirePainter wrote: Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
Or maybe they just want Suits to be an elite unit, whereas the majority of Tau forces be their - wait for it - troops!
Well it would be nice if Crisis Suits had the stats to be truly elite units then.
Truthfully, it seems like they just don't know where they want Crisis Suits or other 'veteran' vehicle things to be at.
Look at any of the Baneblade chassis for an example of this in another army. They're relic vehicles, effectively, that are supposed to be crewed by a tank regiment's best...yet somehow they're still BS4+.
If you really, really need forward drop protection, they'll work. Otherwise, you're better off using hounds as speed bumps or just taking more Fire Warriors.
FirePainter wrote: No change to crisis suits.
No change to missile pods or the rest of the weapons except burst cannons.
ATS increased price.
Fire Warriors decreased price.
Devilfish decreased price.
Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
You can still play with suits. Seriously, just because the points are so damn crazy good that you can mimic dark reaper spam lists levels of competitive. Play with suits, stop trying to min max lists. Just build and have fun.
FirePainter wrote: No change to crisis suits.
No change to missile pods or the rest of the weapons except burst cannons.
ATS increased price.
Fire Warriors decreased price.
Devilfish decreased price.
Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
You can still play with suits. Seriously, just because the points are so damn crazy good that you can mimic dark reaper spam lists levels of competitive. Play with suits, stop trying to min max lists. Just build and have fun.
I find it hard to "just have fun" if my army has a weakness that's a huge violation of it's fluff.
Suit pilots missing statistically half their shots is a good example of that. Tau are meant to be good at shooting to the complete exclusion of any pretence at close combat.
FirePainter wrote: No change to crisis suits.
No change to missile pods or the rest of the weapons except burst cannons.
ATS increased price.
Fire Warriors decreased price.
Devilfish decreased price.
Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
You can still play with suits. Seriously, just because the points are so damn crazy good that you can mimic dark reaper spam lists levels of competitive. Play with suits, stop trying to min max lists. Just build and have fun.
I find it hard to "just have fun" if my army has a weakness that's a huge violation of it's fluff.
Suit pilots missing statistically half their shots is a good example of that. Tau are meant to be good at shooting to the complete exclusion of any pretence at close combat.
you probably can choose not to play tau for the rest of this edition then.
fluff rarely equates to table top gameplay anyway.
Yeah is confusing how the logic of "They have better stats because they have better training/more experience" applies to Conscripts/InfantrySquads/Veterans , and Flash Gitz compared with normal orks, and... nothing else in the game that is not an HQ/Elite character, really.
A Sternguard shoots just like a Devastator. A Tau Suit Pilot shots equally to a Tau Firewarrior. Even as Kanluwen said, the pilots of a baneblade are worse shoters than a IG Veteran.
It doesn't make any kind of sense.
Not saying this to complaint about Tau suit pilots being 4+BS. I can live with that. But is an inconsistence that I have never understood.
xxhikaru123 wrote: I will probably chill for a bit, good to let GW release some.
The codex is great for combined arms Tau of various sorts. Probably even awesome for some combination. But pure crisis armies are gonna be disappointed
I dunno, I have like 18 Crisis Suits and it will be nice to have a reason to take more crisis than commanders in an army that probably won't be all that common (e.g., 1-2 commanders with a lot of regular Crisis Suits). Plus now I'll have a reason to add some Breachers and such.
FirePainter wrote: Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
Or maybe they just want Suits to be an elite unit, whereas the majority of Tau forces be their - wait for it - troops!
Well it would be nice if Crisis Suits had the stats to be truly elite units then.
Tell that to my Terminators, Sternguard, and Vanguard Veterans that have the same BS and WS as a Scout. There really isn't any sort of rules that reflect elite units other than perhaps a better Armor Save or an additional attack, or maybe a slightly better piece of Wargear.
The only consistent upgrade for veteran units is the number of attacks. Tau Shas'vre have 3 attacks because of this. Which is useless next to their 5+ WS.
Sad that Crisis Suits are still not great and Missile Pods (on said suits) are still ghetto autocannons, but I'm happy for the other buffs, especially as it looks like Riptides might actually be good without being completely OP now. I haven't worked out the cost of the Stormsurge with the new information yet, but it might be good as well (here's hoping!). Looks like Bork'an is going to be the go-to sept for competitive play (kind of like Alpha Legion, Cadia, Alaitoc, etc.), which sucks as I want to run Longstrike and/or Darkstrider and they are T'au sept (and that trait is not great). Sky Rays might actually be good now that they dropped in points and their missiles got a massive buff (which means the Stormsurge's D-missiles might be stupid powerful now).
As for the concern that Kroot might be invalidated by the drop in cost of Strike Teams, I'd say they still have a place for blocking deep strikes, as they have that nice Scout move to allow them to be a cheap screen unit. Not as good as SM scouts or Nurglings because Infiltrate>Scout, but taking one 20-man unit (or two 10-man units) to screen forwards might be a good idea for 120 points.
ZergSmasher wrote: Sad that Crisis Suits are still not great and Missile Pods (on said suits) are still ghetto autocannons, but I'm happy for the other buffs, especially as it looks like Riptides might actually be good without being completely OP now. I haven't worked out the cost of the Stormsurge with the new information yet, but it might be good as well (here's hoping!). Looks like Bork'an is going to be the go-to sept for competitive play (kind of like Alpha Legion, Cadia, Alaitoc, etc.), which sucks as I want to run Longstrike and/or Darkstrider and they are T'au sept (and that trait is not great). Sky Rays might actually be good now that they dropped in points and their missiles got a massive buff (which means the Stormsurge's D-missiles might be stupid powerful now).
As for the concern that Kroot might be invalidated by the drop in cost of Strike Teams, I'd say they still have a place for blocking deep strikes, as they have that nice Scout move to allow them to be a cheap screen unit. Not as good as SM scouts or Nurglings because Infiltrate>Scout, but taking one 20-man unit (or two 10-man units) to screen forwards might be a good idea for 120 points.
Kroot are terrible still. Even if you for some reason decide that kroot are better than stealth suits for anti ds shenanigans, pathfinders are better in every way that matters and have the same scout move.
Peregrine wrote: Really disappointed that the Tau buffs all seem to be "make it cheaper" instead of making Tau units good at their jobs per model. We are not orks FFS!
Wait for the strategems and full view.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Points haven't overall shifted that significantly. As it stands my 6k force drops by c.30 points.
Peregrine wrote: Really disappointed that the Tau buffs all seem to be "make it cheaper" instead of making Tau units good at their jobs per model. We are not orks FFS!
Wait for the strategems and full view.
Stratagems don't fix the fluff. Suits/vehicles should be BS 3+ by default, with commanders up to 2+, and should ignore all movement penalties. None of this idiocy of the elite of the shooting army hitting on ork BS.
To briefly interrupt the Tau chat. It seems the order of releases will be tau, dark Eldar, necrons, forgefire box, imperial Knights. Possibly something else before the Knights codex.
This is extrapolating from the comments of a b&c user who correctly guessed the name and contents of the forgefire box a few weeks ago.
Chikout wrote: To briefly interrupt the Tau chat. It seems the order of releases will be tau, dark Eldar, necrons, forgefire box, imperial Knights. Possibly something else before the Knights codex.
This is extrapolating from the comments of a b&c user who correctly guessed the name and contents of the forgefire box a few weeks ago.
Good thing I have 1++ rerollable against all that to save my wallet Knights were close but seeing they aren't likely to get 30k rules illogically dodged that one too.
FirePainter wrote: Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
Or maybe they just want Suits to be an elite unit, whereas the majority of Tau forces be their - wait for it - troops!
Well it would be nice if Crisis Suits had the stats to be truly elite units then.
Tell that to my Terminators, Sternguard, and Vanguard Veterans that have the same BS and WS as a Scout. There really isn't any sort of rules that reflect elite units other than perhaps a better Armor Save or an additional attack, or maybe a slightly better piece of Wargear.
That is the game.
Remember when people were raging because scouts didn't have the same bs as normal.marines? How could gw have known that what we really wanted were bs4+ marines....
100% getting this. The included Knight Armiger sealed it for me. I won't even ditch the Necrons. They are on of the easier armies to paint, and I do want a Xenos army. I do need more Rangers too.
So the army that is marketed using Crisis Suits continues to have garbage rules for said Crisis Suits?
The idea of a Tau book that addresses commander spam (as it should) but then does not address the useless XV-8 teams makes the priority on selling infantry kits over making a solid book so obvious. Really frustrating that the flagship unit for the army seems to continue to be pointless.
Hopefully some of the missing detail makes this all make sense.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wouldn't worry about that. Orks'll be one of the big 'un releases. Lots of new kits.
Allegedly there's going to be a Kult of Speed codex in December. Take that with a grain of salt, but with a box set with no Space Marines confirmed anything feels possible.
Peregrine wrote: Really disappointed that the Tau buffs all seem to be "make it cheaper" instead of making Tau units good at their jobs per model. We are not orks FFS!
The Ghostkeel (Ion Raker) and Riptide (both main guns) buffs are quite significant. Lots of points shaved off from the Broadside as well (which, IMO, makes sense to me. Broadsides, while not supposed to be spammed, are not super-special-snowflake suits like Riptides and Stormsurges. You're supposed to be able to take a couple into an army without running yourself dry on points).
Now I gotta figure out whether I want a safe Fusion Collider + Target Lock + Shield for my Ghostkeel or go full balls to the walls with overcharging Ion Raker + ATS + Target Lock. Think I'll keep my Commander safe with triple Fusion Blaster and Shield Gen though. And I'm definitely going to get a Riptide next month
Think my army is going to be a Batallion of Fire Warrior squads and some Pathfinders with Fireblade and then a Vanguard detachment full of various flavours of battlesuits (Crisis/Ghostkeel/Stealth/Riptide for now) led by the Commander.
I'm a little salty that it feels like Games Workshop is trying to force T'au to be focused entirely around Gunlines and the knee-jerk reaction for fixing "Commander Spam" by going against the design philosophy of Detatchments ("You can make an army out of whatever you feel is cool!")... But I am excited to buy the damn Codex and read/play my precious T'au.
And my god, that AdMech/Necron thing looks really cool. I wonder if it will be a mini-game with "free" models or another Dark Imperium.
Galas wrote: Yeah is confusing how the logic of "They have better stats because they have better training/more experience" applies to Conscripts/InfantrySquads/Veterans , and Flash Gitz compared with normal orks, and... nothing else in the game that is not an HQ/Elite character, really.
A Sternguard shoots just like a Devastator. A Tau Suit Pilot shots equally to a Tau Firewarrior. Even as Kanluwen said, the pilots of a baneblade are worse shoters than a IG Veteran.
It doesn't make any kind of sense.
Not saying this to complaint about Tau suit pilots being 4+BS. I can live with that. But is an inconsistence that I have never understood.
It's an eternal dilemma that applies to all game systems with an extensive background. Do you give units stats based on their background or based on what's the most healthy for the game? Often it's primarily the latter because most people are of the opinion that a fun and balanced game > every stat being in accordance with a certain units' fluff. If we went purely by fluff every Space Marine would have the stats of a Custodes (and basic Custodes troops themselves would probably have the stats of Daemon Prince...) and basic boltguns would probably have a profile of S5 AP -2 D2 or something. Besides, a D6- based system leaves little wiggle room to make units unique as far as their hit and wound rolls go because there's only 6 possibilities to choose from. If it was, say, a D12 system it might have been easy to give Fire Warriors a BS 7+ and Crisis Suits a BS 6+ to represent that Crisis pilots have more combat experience than Fire Warriors. D6 leaves no other choice than to put everything at 4+.
Peregrine wrote: Stratagems don't fix the fluff. Suits/vehicles should be BS 3+ by default, with commanders up to 2+, and should ignore all movement penalties. None of this idiocy of the elite of the shooting army hitting on ork BS.
No. Just no. If anything, commanders should go to 3+, it makes no sense they have same accuracy as best SM veterans with centuries of experience who are far superior to humans, and humans still have much better sight and coordination than normal Tau. That was always my big problem with Tau, humans use blueprints stuff from impossibly advanced age, for Tau guns to be better than that (when their best stuff was badly reverse engineered human gear in old fluff...) was utter nonsense introduced in last two editions by writers who dumped all over past fluff.
Tau might know how their guns work, their stuff might be more reliable, and can be mass produced, but it should be bulkier, have worse stats, and lots of drawbacks as they push their gear way beyond what it can achieve to match Imperial stuff. Doing otherwise makes utter mockery of one of the fundamentals of the setting, the STCs, making mockery out of it as these mechanicus morons could have just abducted a few Earth caste scientists and asked them to write new, better STC and be done with their 'quest of knowledge' in an afternoon...
Well, no change to crisis suits kills off the crisis suit. They are nowhere near as good as custodians (same cost bracket, similar stat block). Unless the weapons are near enough free, I'll pass.
I wonder if we might see what the Jet Pack keyword is for in this codex, that might explain the absence of a cost change for crisis suits and no direct change on the profile.
I think broadsides and fire warriors are in, Fusionkeels are in, HBC'Tides are in. The cost reductions, profile improvements and the Borkan Sept trait massively favour gunline Tau over battlesuits.
The skill stats are pretty broad. 5+ for untrained, 4+ for professional, 3+ for anywhere from guard veteran onward for the most part with 2+ reserved for outright legendary things like leaders and venerable dreadnoughts. The only army I can think of that gets 2+ handed out like candy is custodes, and those represent the emperor's ridiculously resource intensive supersoldier project that can't be mass produced on a useful scale.
It's not out of place for Sternguard to be 3+, most things with any degree of veterancy should be 3+.
Peregrine wrote: Stratagems don't fix the fluff. Suits/vehicles should be BS 3+ by default, with commanders up to 2+, and should ignore all movement penalties. None of this idiocy of the elite of the shooting army hitting on ork BS.
No. Just no. If anything, commanders should go to 3+, it makes no sense they have same accuracy as best SM veterans with centuries of experience who are far superior to humans, and humans still have much better sight and coordination than normal Tau. That was always my big problem with Tau, humans use blueprints stuff from impossibly advanced age, for Tau guns to be better than that (when their best stuff was badly reverse engineered human gear in old fluff...) was utter nonsense introduced in last two editions by writers who dumped all over past fluff.
Tau might know how their guns work, their stuff might be more reliable, and can be mass produced, but it should be bulkier, have worse stats, and lots of drawbacks as they push their gear way beyond what it can achieve to match Imperial stuff. Doing otherwise makes utter mockery of one of the fundamentals of the setting, the STCs, making mockery out of it as these mechanicus morons could have just abducted a few Earth caste scientists and asked them to write new, better STC and be done with their 'quest of knowledge' in an afternoon...
The thing holding back the Mechanicus is their dogmatism, not their aptitude. They could easily outdo Tau Earth Caste engineers if they didn't deem any hint of progression or innovation to be HERESY and worthy of the death penalty or even worse.
Peregrine wrote: Stratagems don't fix the fluff. Suits/vehicles should be BS 3+ by default, with commanders up to 2+, and should ignore all movement penalties. None of this idiocy of the elite of the shooting army hitting on ork BS.
No. Just no. If anything, commanders should go to 3+, it makes no sense they have same accuracy as best SM veterans with centuries of experience who are far superior to humans, and humans still have much better sight and coordination than normal Tau. That was always my big problem with Tau, humans use blueprints stuff from impossibly advanced age, for Tau guns to be better than that (when their best stuff was badly reverse engineered human gear in old fluff...) was utter nonsense introduced in last two editions by writers who dumped all over past fluff.
Tau might know how their guns work, their stuff might be more reliable, and can be mass produced, but it should be bulkier, have worse stats, and lots of drawbacks as they push their gear way beyond what it can achieve to match Imperial stuff. Doing otherwise makes utter mockery of one of the fundamentals of the setting, the STCs, making mockery out of it as these mechanicus morons could have just abducted a few Earth caste scientists and asked them to write new, better STC and be done with their 'quest of knowledge' in an afternoon...
I would agree with most of that - Is it still Canon that Tau super tech compensates for poor depth perception, however I do like the idea of Tau ignoring move penalties as it fits their fluff / tech.
BS 2+ Characters, super Elite (Custodians)
BS 3+ Elite (Astartes, Sororitas, Aspect Warriors, Tau Commanders and Vet Suit pilots, Guard Vets, Scions etc)
BS 4+ Regular and well trained (Fire Warriors, Guard, Crisis suits)
The problem Tau have always had, rules-wise, is that it's very hard to find a niche for them that's not either Guard or Eldar.
Tau originally had really strong shooting on fairly fragile but very mobile platforms which relied on tricksiness like jump-shoot-jump to stay safe. Of course, that's just Eldar. Tau tended to have longer range, but that was it. It wasn't really a sustainable design.
More recently, Tau have been less mobile and more Guard-like. The vision for Tau in 8th seems to have been big suits shielded by a mass of expendable drone bodies. With these new changes they're wanting to de-emphasize gun drones as jetbike equivalents and I guess promote more line infantry. I doubt that Fish of Fury will come back -- none of the traits really seem to support it -- and I feel like the design is aiming for armies to be a bunch of big suits screened by Fire Warriors.
I think their BS has always been a reaction to this tension. At BS3+, lots of Tau units are just re-skinned Eldar. BS4+ lets them feel like a more elite version of Guard. In 8th, it also makes them susceptible to the Raven Guard trait, which seems to have been intended specifically to counter the two big long-range gunline armies.
Irbis wrote: That was always my big problem with Tau, humans use blueprints stuff from impossibly advanced age, for Tau guns to be better than that (when their best stuff was badly reverse engineered human gear in old fluff...) was utter nonsense introduced in last two editions by writers who dumped all over past fluff.
Imperial technology is trash. Tanks with no suspensions that a WWI engineer would be embarrassed to design, guns with absurd rocket shells that are hideously inaccurate, etc. It's just one step above orks on the "trash, but because magic and faith it works" scale. The only redeeming quality the Imperium has is quantity. Their gear might be trash, but if you throw a few trillion soldiers with flashlights and t-shirts at a target eventually you win by sheer numbers. The BS 3+ of space marines represents the best of the best managing to overcome the limits of their technology and fight at a decent level.
Tau technology, on the other hand, is supposed to be reasonable and practical. It works, and it works better than what the Imperium has. In a shooting match between a Tau veteran commander armed with their best gear and a space marine with some half-functioning power armor and a pointy stick the Tau should win every time. And without the scale issues of 40k (distances are not 28mm scale) the space marine probably never even knows what hit them as over-the-horizon seeker missiles annihilate them. And TBH even BS 2+ is probably conservative when compared to real-world tanks/guided missiles/etc. They should probably just auto-hit fluff-wise, but for balance we can scale it back a bit.
making mockery out of it as these mechanicus morons could have just abducted a few Earth caste scientists and asked them to write new, better STC and be done with their 'quest of knowledge' in an afternoon..
You're missing a rather fundamental point of the setting. They can't do that because space Jesus said it isn't ok. It isn't the holy STC, and therefore it is the foulest blasphemy against space Jesus. Practical concerns like "it's better at killing people" do not matter, only the word of space Jesus. Now report for conversion into a servitor, so that you may aid the crusade to recover a rumor of a STC fragment for a pointy stick.
Irbis wrote: That was always my big problem with Tau, humans use blueprints stuff from impossibly advanced age, for Tau guns to be better than that (when their best stuff was badly reverse engineered human gear in old fluff...) was utter nonsense introduced in last two editions by writers who dumped all over past fluff.
Imperial technology is trash. Tanks with no suspensions that a WWI engineer would be embarrassed to design, guns with absurd rocket shells that are hideously inaccurate, etc. It's just one step above orks on the "trash, but because magic and faith it works" scale. The only redeeming quality the Imperium has is quantity. Their gear might be trash, but if you throw a few trillion soldiers with flashlights and t-shirts at a target eventually you win by sheer numbers. The BS 3+ of space marines represents the best of the best managing to overcome the limits of their technology and fight at a decent level.
Tau technology, on the other hand, is supposed to be reasonable and practical. It works, and it works better than what the Imperium has. In a shooting match between a Tau veteran commander armed with their best gear and a space marine with some half-functioning power armor and a pointy stick the Tau should win every time. And without the scale issues of 40k (distances are not 28mm scale) the space marine probably never even knows what hit them as over-the-horizon seeker missiles annihilate them. And TBH even BS 2+ is probably conservative when compared to real-world tanks/guided missiles/etc. They should probably just auto-hit fluff-wise, but for balance we can scale it back a bit.
So this is what Movie Marines fanboyism looks like when applied to other factions.
BS 4+ on most Tau-units is fine, as long as they don't pay for 3+ BS.
I haven't read Tau-fluff for quite some time, but I recall them as having poor depth perception, which explained the poor BS (back then 3, now 4+) despite being a shooty futuristic army.
I recall them having BS 3 (4+) on most of their army when they where released back in 4th, with a few units being able to purchase a +1 BS upgrade. It should be the same now: Some units should be able to get BS 3+ with some tech-upgrades, but they shouldn't be to cheap that they're auto-include, and they shouldn't be spammable. Tau is a shooty army, but that doesn't mean it should have more than average BS.
As for Tau's niche, I've always seen them as some strange mix of IG and Eldar:
More maneuverable than IG but not as maneuverable as Eldar.
More high-tech than IG but not as high-tech as Eldar.
Better Ballistic Skill than IG but not as good as Eldar.
Cheaper than Eldar but not as cheap as IG.
Tougher than Eldar, etc etc.
MinscS2 wrote: I haven't read Tau-fluff for quite some time, but I recall them as having poor depth perception, which explained the poor BS (back then 3, now 4+) despite being a shooty futuristic army.
This was only ever stated in Imperial propaganda (and presented as such in the text), much like the picture of a guardsman bashing a tiny and pathetic ork with a lasgun as an example of how weak orks are in melee. It also doesn't make any sense for a hunting species to have poor vision, or for that flaw to still be present long after the Tau implemented their genetic engineering program and divided themselves into specialized sub-species.
Maneuverable, but not as maneuverable as Eldar.
This sums it up pretty well. Eldar are stupid fast, moving across half the table in a single turn. Tau don't move any faster than the normal maximum, but they can move that distance every turn while continuing to shoot. A Hammerhead isn't much faster top-end than a LRBT, but where the LRBT is moving 10" with a BS penalty the Hammerhead is moving 12" and nailing you with a perfectly accurate railgun shot. A crisis suit isn't any faster than a guardsman's 6" move + 2D6" charge, but it gets to move its full 6+2D6" regardless of whether or not it charges and gets to shoot (with no penalty for its powerful guns) halfway through that movement.
The other difference is supposed to be the Eldar specialization. Eldar are an army of one-dimensional specialists. Each unit is insanely good at its single purpose, but underwhelming at everything else. Combine that with the speed advantage and you have an army that can deliver the right tool for the job at every key point, but can quickly run into trouble if you don't use your specialists right. Tau, on the other hand, have a lot of general-purpose units that will rarely be useless (until they get charged) but will never match the top-end performance of an Eldar specialist attacking its preferred target.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote: So this is what Movie Marines fanboyism looks like when applied to other factions.
Only in 40k is advocating a level of technology beyond 1950 considered to be "movie marines fanboyism"...
Arka0415 wrote:
Speaking of rumors, I just got some information from someone I know to be reliable. Most was covered by the recent leaks on DakkaDakka already, but here's some new stuff:
- Sept Tenets apply to all models except Kroot and Vespid
- Thermoneutronic Projector is relic AFP with S6/AP-2
- FSE gain a stratagem that gives XV8s +1 to hit on the turn they use Manta Strike
- Coldstar Commanders can take any weapon except the CIB, and up to one High-Output Burst Cannon
- XV8 Commander option with 4W
- Homing Beacons are used at the beginning of the movement phase
- Riptides gain a stratagem that allows them to use two Nova Charge buffs at once
- Tactical Drones gain Manta Strike
- Savior Protocols works on a 2+
If Drones gain Manta strike they're well worth 12ppm. Well, really, they are already 'worth' 12pts, they just aren't a whopping deal at 12pts. Add DS and I'm very happy.
Also, Sept Tenets on big suits sounds like a lot of fun. So far I'm pretty happy with the rumours. I was never a Crisis Suit spammer though, so maybe that helps. Even there, a little wait and see might salve some wounds. If the weapons get cheaper, and there are some nice stratagems and whatnot, they might still be just fine.
ATT had a strategem posted for farsight enclaves that gave a unit of crisis suits +1BS after manta strike. Which is nice but you would still need a homing beacon to get value out of the sept trait.
FirePainter wrote: ATT had a strategem posted for farsight enclaves that gave a unit of crisis suits +1BS after manta strike. Which is nice but you would still need a homing beacon to get value out of the sept trait.
Good thing that Stealth Suits come with them in the box right?
Drones used to have deep strike until the index so getting it back is a nice bonus. Drones squadron can now keep up with other deep strikers to keep providing ablative wounds.
Plus, apparently Coldstars can take 'at least 2 fusion blasters'.
So, long story short, the new Tau suck? Highlights:
-Sept traits suck
-WL traits suck
-Relics suck
-Stratagems suck
-No allies (Obviously)
-No psychic powers (Obviously)
-Points costs didn’t drop enough
Good luck fighting for the jumbo placements at tournaments
FirePainter wrote: ATT had a strategem posted for farsight enclaves that gave a unit of crisis suits +1BS after manta strike. Which is nice but you would still need a homing beacon to get value out of the sept trait.
Good thing that Stealth Suits come with them in the box right?
Absolutely! I was already using 12 stealths on a regular basis so this is just more incentive. Not sure if I'll use farsight suits though 6" is a little close for Tau.
Deep striking Drones is a game changer. No more out-kicking your coverage with Y'Vahras or taking extra random suits for more drones to protect what matters. Just set the guys down where you need them, and voila! instant dakka storm with coverage for your fast
This sums it up pretty well. Eldar are stupid fast, moving across half the table in a single turn. Tau don't move any faster than the normal maximum, but they can move that distance every turn while continuing to shoot. A Hammerhead isn't much faster top-end than a LRBT, but where the LRBT is moving 10" with a BS penalty the Hammerhead is moving 12" and nailing you with a perfectly accurate railgun shot. A crisis suit isn't any faster than a guardsman's 6" move + 2D6" charge, but it gets to move its full 6+2D6" regardless of whether or not it charges and gets to shoot (with no penalty for its powerful guns) halfway through that movement.
The other difference is supposed to be the Eldar specialization. Eldar are an army of one-dimensional specialists. Each unit is insanely good at its single purpose, but underwhelming at everything else. Combine that with the speed advantage and you have an army that can deliver the right tool for the job at every key point, but can quickly run into trouble if you don't use your specialists right. Tau, on the other hand, have a lot of general-purpose units that will rarely be useless (until they get charged) but will never match the top-end performance of an Eldar specialist attacking its preferred target.
This is sort of the idea, yeah, but clearly GW has struggled to find that balance in practice. And that's understandable, right? In real games, lots of Eldar units don't move across half the table in a single turn. Actually, their tanks don't even want to move at all, and the Prism definitely doesn't want to move more than 8". And Russes now move pretty well -- there are big diminishing returns to moving more than a little bit to get better LoS when you have a bunch of 36+" guns. There's not a whole lot of design space left in there for the Hammerhead to actually feel like a distinct idea (and, I mean, if you compare the Railhead to the index Fire Prism they're pretty much the same thing, though now the FP shoots twice as well). This might be why Eldar flyers seem to be so pushed relative to everyone else's (Fire Raptor aside); it's kind of silly to use a Prism when Crimson Hunters exist, but maybe the idea is to emphasize the fast, evasive flyers over the slower, Tau-like grav tanks (but lbr this is probably just an accident).
Likewise they've struggled to make Tau units generalists. The main problem here is that suits are customizable and come in small units, so why wouldn't you specialize them? Nobody's bringing a unit with 1 plasma suit and 1 flamer suit. Some of the bigger suits have some anti-infantry shooting in addition to a bigger gun, but that's true for big Eldar models too. Their attempted fix for this was to create pseudo-units of gun drones and suits, by making the suits too expensive to justify bringing on their own without ablative wounds, but as of now they seem to have mostly given up on the regular crisis suits. It's telling that in the index the most popular Tau unit was a Commander loaded up with fusion guns.
Therion wrote: So, long story short, the new Tau suck? Highlights:
-Sept traits suck
-WL traits suck
-Relics suck
-Stratagems suck
-No allies (Obviously)
-No psychic powers (Obviously)
-Points costs didn’t drop enough
Good luck fighting for the jumbo placements at tournaments
Edit: Unless you mean "suck" as in "not as good as Dark Reaper spamm". Then yes, they do suck.
I agree. Dark Reaper spam is the worst yardstick ever.
That said, the notion of Pulse Rifles that shoot 42" and rapid fire three shots out to 21" sounds pretty sweet. Or rapid firing three shots at 18" for overwatch on a 5+. That's assuming that the Pulse drone and Fireblade keep their current rules. I'm not at all upset so far,
Crisis suits are the iconic Tau unit, but Tau players already own a lot of crisis suits.
If I was writing the codex and wanted to shift Tau towards mass fire warriors but still wanted every Tau player to keep using a unit of suits the solution is simple: don't buff crisis suits in stats or points, but give Tau a shoot twice per turn with 1 unit of crisis suits strategem.
- Homing Beacons are used at the beginning of the movement phase
Really praying this is not true. If it is it kills aggressive tau so hard. Farsight Enclave might be good, definitely fun if we have homing beacons like this index.
Would be truly gutted/disappointed; forced to play more of a sit back/gunline style just by this little change.
FirePainter wrote: No change to crisis suits.
No change to missile pods or the rest of the weapons except burst cannons.
ATS increased price.
Fire Warriors decreased price.
Devilfish decreased price.
Somebody doesn't want Tau playing with suits. I guess we are an infantry army now.
You can still play with suits. Seriously, just because the points are so damn crazy good that you can mimic dark reaper spam lists levels of competitive. Play with suits, stop trying to min max lists. Just build and have fun.
I find it hard to "just have fun" if my army has a weakness that's a huge violation of it's fluff.
Suit pilots missing statistically half their shots is a good example of that. Tau are meant to be good at shooting to the complete exclusion of any pretence at close combat.
you probably can choose not to play tau for the rest of this edition then.
fluff rarely equates to table top gameplay anyway.
Arka0415 wrote:
Speaking of rumors, I just got some information from someone I know to be reliable. Most was covered by the recent leaks on DakkaDakka already, but here's some new stuff:
- FSE gain a stratagem that gives XV8s +1 to hit on the turn they use Manta Strike
Overcharged 3-shot CIB without blowing myself up here I come!
Nova-charging your main gun while having a 3++ on your Riptide sounds very nice as well...
- Homing Beacons are used at the beginning of the movement phase
Really praying this is not true. If it is it kills aggressive tau so hard. Farsight Enclave might be good, definitely fun if we have homing beacons like this index.
Would be truly gutted/disappointed; forced to play more of a sit back/gunline style just by this little change.
I'm wondering if it's trying to say that the Homing Beacon has to be placed during the beginning of the Movement Phase rather than "during the Movement Phase" like it is now?
I mean yeah, it makes things a bit harder to work with but it does mean that you can get some usage out of Advancing in the previous turn.
schadenfreude wrote:Crisis suits are the iconic Tau unit, but Tau players already own a lot of crisis suits.
If I was writing the codex and wanted to shift Tau towards mass fire warriors but still wanted every Tau player to keep using a unit of suits the solution is simple: don't buff crisis suits in stats or points, but give Tau a shoot twice per turn with 1 unit of crisis suits strategem.
I mean, that's one way to interpret it...the other is that they just don't know what to do with Crisis Suits.
FirePainter wrote: ATT had a strategem posted for farsight enclaves that gave a unit of crisis suits +1BS after manta strike. Which is nice but you would still need a homing beacon to get value out of the sept trait.
Good thing that Stealth Suits come with them in the box right?
Absolutely! I was already using 12 stealths on a regular basis so this is just more incentive. Not sure if I'll use farsight suits though 6" is a little close for Tau.
Not sure if that will work that way though! Mainly due to the current wording of how Homing Becons work. If the only thing that is changed, is that the becon is deployed at the start of the movement phase then there might be some RAI arguments.
Currently homing becons change T’au deepstrike FROM Mantra Strike to “Low-altitude drop” – so, as per current RAW, you wouldn’t be able to use the +1 BS stratagem as you wouldn’t be performing a “Mantra Strike”.
Hopefully the wording will be clarified soon, if not, we can only hope it gets FAQd 2 weeks later and that we don’t lose our minds with the endless bickering all the YMDC threads will result in.
- Homing Beacons are used at the beginning of the movement phase
Really praying this is not true. If it is it kills aggressive tau so hard. Farsight Enclave might be good, definitely fun if we have homing beacons like this index.
Would be truly gutted/disappointed; forced to play more of a sit back/gunline style just by this little change.
I'm wondering if it's trying to say that the Homing Beacon has to be placed during the beginning of the Movement Phase rather than "during the Movement Phase" like it is now?
I mean yeah, it makes things a bit harder to work with but it does mean that you can get some usage out of Advancing in the previous turn.
Yeah that's how I read it!
I've been using it as
1. hide stealth in cover
2. jump+advance out
3. Various crisis nasties come down
4.?????
5. Profit.
But if it need opponent to be that close to stealth teams at their end of turn... I don't think they're stupid enough. Flamer variant is def. dead. Probably better to just just Bork'an instead of pushing in there to try and get the benefit.
I mean, chances of using the farsight trait now has dropped dramatically.
Unless there is like a ''you can move after manta strategem, but unlikely.
+1 BS for 1 deepstriking unit is also pretty disappointing. Was hoping for re-roll wounds on unit for like 2/3CP (basically Doom; Enclave benefit before; killing blow)
+1 BS for 1 deepstriking unit is also pretty disappointing. Was hoping for re-roll wounds on unit for like 2/3CP (basically Doom; Enclave benefit before; killing blow)
It's pretty nice now that the CIB is also 3 shots while overcharged. Guaranteed to not blow yourself up and you don't need to set up a markerlight on the target first. Drop in a bunch of triple CIB Crisis suits (slap on a couple of shield gens to tank stuff) and go to town on your opponents' special snowflake unit.
188$. I'm guessing it'll be either 150 (in line with Death Masque) or 175$. Either way, pretty solid value as I'm guessing those knights are going to be at least a 66$ kit.
Very bizarre that the microknights will be LOW slot. They don't look to be any bigger than a heavy support tank, and pointswise if they're going to be falling around 150.. I guess I get that they're trying to get them to work with the big boy knights, but I hope there's a rule against just grabbing three of them and having a super-heavy detachment with 3CP for like 450 points. I guess we'll see how good they are - they certainly don't look like theyve got a ton of anti horde capability.
They are cuties though. Look at his widdle face! I'm sorely tempted to try and split this box if it falls anywhere near the 150$ range.
ChargerIIC wrote: Some nice hints there. Wonder if Armigers are going to have two datasheets per variant - one for AM and one for the knight houses.
I don't see why, the only difference is the Questoris Mechanicus vs Questoris Imperailis keyword. Knights already take up too many datasheets for what are just weapon swaps as it is.
*Patiently steeples fingers while awaiting delicious rumor-morsels like pain loving spider*
If the forge bane box is any hint, probably Necrons after Tau.
earlier in the thread someone said that the guy who correctly called the exact contents of the necron box also said that DE were after tau, so that's where I'm getting the assumption from.
*shrug* I guess I wouldn't mind either way, it's gonna be a difference of two weeks give or take.
I think "For the Greater Good" is going to be pretty good this time around. XV02 Battlesuit for Longstrike is nice; it's something I've long been advocating for Battlesuits to do.
Focused fire is pretty serious if you need to bring down something tough. It'll be interesting to see what weapons it affects most. There might be a pretty strong case for hitting something like a knight with a HRR or two once it's been wounded.
The other two aren't so interesting. Breach and clear is so situational that it's a bit disappointing really.
Wow. Those are all pretty good. I wish ANY of my armies had something even remotely within the scope of Focused Fire. I mean, it's expensive and probably usually going to be overkill, but sometimes you need overkill.
Mandragola wrote: Focused fire is pretty serious if you need to bring down something tough. It'll be interesting to see what weapons it affects most. There might be a pretty strong case for hitting something like a knight with a HRR or two once it's been wounded.
The other two aren't so interesting. Breach and clear is so situational that it's a bit disappointing really.
Mandragola wrote: Focused fire is pretty serious if you need to bring down something tough. It'll be interesting to see what weapons it affects most. There might be a pretty strong case for hitting something like a knight with a HRR or two once it's been wounded.
The other two aren't so interesting. Breach and clear is so situational that it's a bit disappointing really.
Nah, three command points to use.
To, say, get +1 to wounds a guy like Magnus, or a beatstick deathstar unit with everything else in your army? I think it's worth the CP in those situations. Plus Tau aren't going to hurting for CPs. You might not use it absolutely every game, but I'd bet that canny Tau players will use it a lot.
Mandragola wrote: Focused fire is pretty serious if you need to bring down something tough. It'll be interesting to see what weapons it affects most. There might be a pretty strong case for hitting something like a knight with a HRR or two once it's been wounded.
The other two aren't so interesting. Breach and clear is so situational that it's a bit disappointing really.
Nah, three command points to use.
To, say, get +1 to wounds a guy like Magnus, or a beatstick deathstar unit with everything else in your army? I think it's worth the CP in those situations. Plus Tau aren't going to hurting for CPs. You might not use it absolutely every game, but I'd bet that canny Tau players will use it a lot.
More than that, it's a T'au Sept ability.
Tag something like Magnus with the HRRs or whatever, Darkstrider then adds in his Structural Analyzer to the target for a nearby T'au Sept Infantry Unit. It can get mean to where even your basic infantry can put some hurt down.
Mandragola wrote: Focused fire is pretty serious if you need to bring down something tough. It'll be interesting to see what weapons it affects most. There might be a pretty strong case for hitting something like a knight with a HRR or two once it's been wounded.
The other two aren't so interesting. Breach and clear is so situational that it's a bit disappointing really.
Nah, three command points to use.
To, say, get +1 to wounds a guy like Magnus, or a beatstick deathstar unit with everything else in your army? I think it's worth the CP in those situations. Plus Tau aren't going to hurting for CPs. You might not use it absolutely every game, but I'd bet that canny Tau players will use it a lot.
Oh yeah. Wow that's expensive.
It could theoretically be worth it if you have a bunch of railguns - because you'd get extra mortal wounds. I could actually see a case for rail rifle pathfinders against a target like Magnus in that situation. I'm not sure how the maths would work out though - probably not all that well. A unit firing 6 shots and hitting on a 4+ would do 1 mortal wound... which isn't going to change all that much. I guess markerlights could improve that somewhat.
It could theoretically be worth it if you have a bunch of railguns - because you'd get extra mortal wounds. I could actually see a case for rail rifle pathfinders against a target like Magnus in that situation. I'm not sure how the maths would work out though - probably not all that well. A unit firing 6 shots and hitting on a 4+ would do 1 mortal wound... which isn't going to change all that much. I guess markerlights could improve that somewhat.
And this right here is where Darkstrider comes into play too. Remove a point of Toughness from Magnus, get +1 to Wound rolls against him for your Pathfinders...have fun with it!
Therion wrote: Because "reasons" the Focused Fire costs 3 CP for Tau but only 2 CP for Astra Militarum who are already swimming in CPs.
Is "Tau Sept" a detachment doctrine type thing like "Cadian" is?
That's correct.
T'au Sept would be also including Shadowsun, Darkstrider, and Longstrike as special character options since they're keyword locked. Also Aun'va(Aun'shi is Vior'la Sept and Farsight is Farsight Enclaves).
Tau have plenty of ways to increase accuracy so this is fine. The bonus to wound rolls also helps rail weapons for their mortal wounds. 3 CP seems fair overall.
Therion wrote: Because "reasons" the Focused Fire costs 3 CP for Tau but only 2 CP for Astra Militarum who are already swimming in CPs.
Is "Tau Sept" a detachment doctrine type thing like "Cadian" is?
That's correct.
T'au Sept would be also including Shadowsun, Darkstrider, and Longstrike as special character options since they're keyword locked. Also Aun'va(Aun'shi is Vior'la Sept and Farsight is Farsight Enclaves).
Sounds like it's going to be another one of those situations where there's an obvious super good detachment subfaction choice then if they're winding up with that and most of the characters too.
It could theoretically be worth it if you have a bunch of railguns - because you'd get extra mortal wounds. I could actually see a case for rail rifle pathfinders against a target like Magnus in that situation. I'm not sure how the maths would work out though - probably not all that well. A unit firing 6 shots and hitting on a 4+ would do 1 mortal wound... which isn't going to change all that much. I guess markerlights could improve that somewhat.
And this right here is where Darkstrider comes into play too. Remove a point of Toughness from Magnus, get +1 to Wound rolls against him for your Pathfinders...have fun with it!
That particular combo is really useful for anything T8 - drop it to T7 so your S5 guns wound on 5's, then up that to 4's with the stratagem - could be very nice for erasing tank-y units. The same math applies to units that are T5 - drop it 4 to wound on 3+ then add +1 to wound on 2's. I can think of lots of uses for both. Of course we're assuming that Darkstrider still works the same way... hopefully he does.
Sounds like it's going to be another one of those situations where there's an obvious super good detachment subfaction choice then if they're winding up with that and most of the characters too.
T'au, unfortunately, seem to be very much like AdMech in that they seem to be pigeonholed into a single one if you want to use specific characters. That's why I had been hoping for a generic Ghostkeel Commander or Stealth Suit Commander.
It'll be interesting to see if access to the special characters makes it worth actually playing T'au. That 5+ overwatch in particular sounds pretty interesting, though I notice it seems to require that you are near another unit for it to work. It's a shame if you are being asked to clump up your Tau in one spot and stay there, because that's exactly the opposite of all the fluff.
Mandragola wrote: It'll be interesting to see if access to the special characters makes it worth actually playing T'au. That 5+ overwatch in particular sounds pretty interesting, though I notice it seems to require that you are near another unit for it to work. It's a shame if you are being asked to clump up your Tau in one spot and stay there, because that's exactly the opposite of all the fluff.
ChargerIIC wrote: Some nice hints there. Wonder if Armigers are going to have two datasheets per variant - one for AM and one for the knight houses.
I don't see why, the only difference is the Questoris Mechanicus vs Questoris Imperailis keyword. Knights already take up too many datasheets for what are just weapon swaps as it is.
I'm wondering because Ministorum Priests, for example, have two sheets - identical except one is for Adeptus Ministroum and another for Militarum Auxiliara. Same for Crusaders.
Mandragola wrote: It'll be interesting to see if access to the special characters makes it worth actually playing T'au. That 5+ overwatch in particular sounds pretty interesting, though I notice it seems to require that you are near another unit for it to work. It's a shame if you are being asked to clump up your Tau in one spot and stay there, because that's exactly the opposite of all the fluff.
Mandragola wrote: It'll be interesting to see if access to the special characters makes it worth actually playing T'au. That 5+ overwatch in particular sounds pretty interesting, though I notice it seems to require that you are near another unit for it to work. It's a shame if you are being asked to clump up your Tau in one spot and stay there, because that's exactly the opposite of all the fluff.
Drones count I believe.
Any Tau Sept unit should count.
They might well, but it's still not as good as if you just got the bonus all of the time. It wouldn't be too hard for an opponent to shoot one unit and charge another.
Clustering units also creates the problem of being multi-charged, or having enemies charge one unit and consolidate into another.
So overall it's nice, but I'm not sure if it's spectacular. There are some situations, like if you have a couple of really big suits hanging around, where charging your fire warriors could look pretty unappealing though - especially for people like characters. Nobody wants to see their fancy characters get gunned down by railgun fire.
Oh no's! Limitations on stuff that is super good?!?!?!? (ie. 5+ Overwatch) It's like GW doesn't want every T'au player to play the same Sept or something...
I think you were exactly right the first time that the T'au trait is wanting you to deploy in a big blob that maybe slowly pushes forward into the middle of the map. I mean, that's what For The Greater Good was doing all along, and now they're buffing Fire Warriors and nerfing the faster, short-ranged drones.
Mandragola wrote: It'll be interesting to see if access to the special characters makes it worth actually playing T'au. That 5+ overwatch in particular sounds pretty interesting, though I notice it seems to require that you are near another unit for it to work. It's a shame if you are being asked to clump up your Tau in one spot and stay there, because that's exactly the opposite of all the fluff.
Drones count I believe.
Any Tau Sept unit should count.
They might well, but it's still not as good as if you just got the bonus all of the time. It wouldn't be too hard for an opponent to shoot one unit and charge another.
Clustering units also creates the problem of being multi-charged, or having enemies charge one unit and consolidate into another.
So overall it's nice, but I'm not sure if it's spectacular. There are some situations, like if you have a couple of really big suits hanging around, where charging your fire warriors could look pretty unappealing though - especially for people like characters. Nobody wants to see their fancy characters get gunned down by railgun fire.
My point is that it only takes 2 drones in one "unit" to get the buff. Most units come with extra drones that detach from their units. Therefore, so long as you have at least one drone nearby, you will always get the bonus. You don't need to have a big blob. And of course it's not as good as just on all the time, but just look at Mordians; they have to be in base to base contact or be within 6" of other vehicles as a vehicle. It's hardly unfair or even that noteworthy.
Mandragola wrote: It'll be interesting to see if access to the special characters makes it worth actually playing T'au. That 5+ overwatch in particular sounds pretty interesting, though I notice it seems to require that you are near another unit for it to work. It's a shame if you are being asked to clump up your Tau in one spot and stay there, because that's exactly the opposite of all the fluff.
Not exactly. Tau Sept overwatch goes on a 5+ period. For the Greater Good, when other units w/in 6" of a unit firing overwatch can also fire overwatch at the same target also now hits on a 5+ for Tau Sept.
Fire warriors are gonna be lethal and at -1point per model getting 60 of them into a list is gonna be easy and still leave plenty of room for all the extras.
8th is all about numbers and 180 st 5 shots at 21” is deadly by any standard!
Mandragola wrote: It'll be interesting to see if access to the special characters makes it worth actually playing T'au. That 5+ overwatch in particular sounds pretty interesting, though I notice it seems to require that you are near another unit for it to work. It's a shame if you are being asked to clump up your Tau in one spot and stay there, because that's exactly the opposite of all the fluff.
Not exactly. Tau Sept overwatch goes on a 5+ period. For the Greater Good, when other units w/in 6" of a unit firing overwatch can also fire overwatch at the same target also now hits on a 5+ for Tau Sept.
That isn't correct.
They always hit on a 5+ when using For the Greater Good. But it only applies to overwatch when they are within 6" of a friendly T'au Sept unit.
This is probably fine, especially if drones count as T'au sept units. You'll tend to be bunched up anyway.
It certainly looks to me like fire warriors will be a better option than gun drones now anyway. If FWs are 7 points and drones are 12 then the warriors (with their better BS) will land more hits/point. You also get a 35 point troop unit, which is very cheap. Overall I think it will be pretty easy to get the bonus for another unit within 6", because you'll have so many units - indeed it will probably be easy to field a brigade if you want to. Getting the bonus for having finished deploying first will not be so easy though!
Mandragola wrote: It'll be interesting to see if access to the special characters makes it worth actually playing T'au. That 5+ overwatch in particular sounds pretty interesting, though I notice it seems to require that you are near another unit for it to work. It's a shame if you are being asked to clump up your Tau in one spot and stay there, because that's exactly the opposite of all the fluff.
Not exactly. Tau Sept overwatch goes on a 5+ period. For the Greater Good, when other units w/in 6" of a unit firing overwatch can also fire overwatch at the same target also now hits on a 5+ for Tau Sept.
That isn't correct.
They always hit on a 5+ when using For the Greater Good. But it only applies to overwatch when they are within 6" of a friendly T'au Sept unit.
This is probably fine, especially if drones count as T'au sept units. You'll tend to be bunched up anyway.
It certainly looks to me like fire warriors will be a better option than gun drones now anyway. If FWs are 7 points and drones are 12 then the warriors (with their better BS) will land more hits/point. You also get a 35 point troop unit, which is very cheap. Overall I think it will be pretty easy to get the bonus for another unit within 6", because you'll have so many units - indeed it will probably be easy to field a brigade if you want to. Getting the bonus for having finished deploying first will not be so easy though!
regardless of any modifiers leaves me some very high hopes for orks. It sets a precedent for modifiers not mattering; exactly what alot of ork players want.
That's correct about the overwatch. That's what I get for posting while I'm trying to work. You only need units in pairs to make it apply to everything though, so it's not exactly a huge hindrance.
regardless of any modifiers leaves me some very high hopes for orks. It sets a precedent for modifiers not mattering; exactly what alot of ork players want.
Modifiers have never counted for overwatch the reason for explicitly stating it here is Tau units not being charged being allowed to overwatch by another name and some people presumably claiming to hit modifications cout in that instance.
I would hope there is no way thew are going to hand out ignore to hits modifiers army wide after the brokenness that is reaper spam.
regardless of any modifiers leaves me some very high hopes for orks. It sets a precedent for modifiers not mattering; exactly what alot of ork players want.
Modifiers have never counted for overwatch the reason for explicitly stating it here is Tau units not being charged being allowed to overwatch by another name and some people presumably claiming to hit modifications cout in that instance.
I would hope there is no way thew are going to hand out ignore to hits modifiers army wide after the brokenness that is reaper spam.
oh damn, I thought modifiers like stealth suits have negatively affected overwatch
regardless of any modifiers leaves me some very high hopes for orks. It sets a precedent for modifiers not mattering; exactly what alot of ork players want.
Modifiers have never counted for overwatch the reason for explicitly stating it here is Tau units not being charged being allowed to overwatch by another name and some people presumably claiming to hit modifications cout in that instance.
I would hope there is no way thew are going to hand out ignore to hits modifiers army wide after the brokenness that is reaper spam.
oh damn, I thought modifiers like stealth suits have negatively affected overwatch
Nope. Neither positive nor negative modifiers have an effect on overwatch.
Nope. Neither positive nor negative modifiers have an effect on overwatch.
I'm pretty sure MWBD affects overwatch, or I watched someone play it wrong.
It shouldn't. The Overwatch rule says it only hits on a 6 regardless of modifiers unless specified otherwise. MWBD does not specify that it affects overwatch.
Nope. Neither positive nor negative modifiers have an effect on overwatch.
I'm pretty sure MWBD affects overwatch, or I watched someone play it wrong.
That person played it wrong. Overwatch is always on a 6 regardless of any modifiers unless, like that Tau rule above, it specifically effects overwatch.
On topic, some really good news on the points drops. Crisis suits remain blah but my big and medium suits are happy as noise marine on a pleasure planet.
Mandragola wrote: It'll be interesting to see if access to the special characters makes it worth actually playing T'au. That 5+ overwatch in particular sounds pretty interesting, though I notice it seems to require that you are near another unit for it to work. It's a shame if you are being asked to clump up your Tau in one spot and stay there, because that's exactly the opposite of all the fluff.
Not exactly. Tau Sept overwatch goes on a 5+ period. For the Greater Good, when other units w/in 6" of a unit firing overwatch can also fire overwatch at the same target also now hits on a 5+ for Tau Sept.
That isn't correct.
They always hit on a 5+ when using For the Greater Good. But it only applies to overwatch when they are within 6" of a friendly T'au Sept unit.
This is probably fine, especially if drones count as T'au sept units. You'll tend to be bunched up anyway.
It certainly looks to me like fire warriors will be a better option than gun drones now anyway. If FWs are 7 points and drones are 12 then the warriors (with their better BS) will land more hits/point. You also get a 35 point troop unit, which is very cheap. Overall I think it will be pretty easy to get the bonus for another unit within 6", because you'll have so many units - indeed it will probably be easy to field a brigade if you want to. Getting the bonus for having finished deploying first will not be so easy though!
regardless of any modifiers leaves me some very high hopes for orks. It sets a precedent for modifiers not mattering; exactly what alot of ork players want.
Typhus has had that ability on his Destroyer Hive (works like a pistol rules-wise) ever since the 8th edition indexes launched. Always hits on a 5+ and can't be modified in any way in both the "regular" shooting phase and overwatch.
rtb02 wrote: Anyone know if seekers are still one shot please?
Hunter killers are so as the tau equivalent I think they will be.
Difficult as hellstorm missiles on the stormraven used to be but now aren't. Leaves the skyray in an interesting position.
I don't mind either way but would like to know. Maybe the skyray has a seeker array or similar akin to the ravens?...
Multiple use missiles are almost exclusively on fliers and also don't forget, if the seekers are one use then you can dump all of them as opposed to multi use where you would probably be stuck at one or two shots a turn.
So the 3cp stratagem... by RAW, you can activate the stratagem after something like a strike squad wounds a target, and then shot to that target with one of the two smart misiles systems of a Stormsurge for example... and then fire all the other weapons of the Stormsurge to different targets, and all those shots receive +1 to wound.
I'm correct?
Galas wrote: So the 3cp stratagem... by RAW, you can activate the stratagem after something like a strike squad wounds a target, and then shot to that target with one of the two smart misiles systems of a Stormsurge for example... and then fire all the other weapons of the Stormsurge to different targets, and all those shots receive +1 to wound.
I'm correct?
Therion wrote: So, long story short, the new Tau suck? Highlights:
-Sept traits suck
-WL traits suck
-Relics suck
-Stratagems suck
-No allies (Obviously)
-No psychic powers (Obviously)
-Points costs didn’t drop enough
Good luck fighting for the jumbo placements at tournaments
Gamgee, is that you?
Hah, I too, have been looking for ridiculous posts with low post count.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: So the 3cp stratagem... by RAW, you can activate the stratagem after something like a strike squad wounds a target, and then shot to that target with one of the two smart misiles systems of a Stormsurge for example... and then fire all the other weapons of the Stormsurge to different targets, and all those shots receive +1 to wound.
I'm correct?
Galas wrote: So the 3cp stratagem... by RAW, you can activate the stratagem after something like a strike squad wounds a target, and then shot to that target with one of the two smart misiles systems of a Stormsurge for example... and then fire all the other weapons of the Stormsurge to different targets, and all those shots receive +1 to wound.
I'm correct?
Ugg, yea - looks like a FAQ to be had there.
Nah. Read it again:
You get the +1 to Wound rolls when targeting that specific unit. There's some wiggle room of course for people trying to be cheesy gits but anyone who argues that it's "vague" is looking for that wiggle room and needs to be dreadsocked.
Nope. "You can add 1 to wound rolls for any other T'au Sept units". But those to wound rolls don't need to be agaisnt the unit you are using the stratagem into it. If the unit has more than one weapon it can totally shot one weapon to that target, the other weapons to other targets, and all of them receive +1 to wound.
I'm not gonna use this that way, of course, I agree with you the RAI is clear. But this will be FAQ'ed or people will be abuse it for free +1 to Wound.
Or just FAQ it to say "receive the +1 to wound with any weapons fired at the same target". No point is crimping split fire when you don't have to - just keep the bonus to wound on the target unit like we all know is the RAI.
regardless of any modifiers leaves me some very high hopes for orks. It sets a precedent for modifiers not mattering; exactly what alot of ork players want.
Modifiers have never counted for overwatch the reason for explicitly stating it here is Tau units not being charged being allowed to overwatch by another name and some people presumably claiming to hit modifications cout in that instance.
I would hope there is no way thew are going to hand out ignore to hits modifiers army wide after the brokenness that is reaper spam.
oh damn, I thought modifiers like stealth suits have negatively affected overwatch
Nope. Neither positive nor negative modifiers have an effect on overwatch.
I feel I should point out that overwatch does not make the modifiers go away; it just makes them irrelevant to working out hits. Stack enough negative mods on overwatch and you can make overcharging plasma suicidal, just like with regular shooting. Even if it does hit too…
regardless of any modifiers leaves me some very high hopes for orks. It sets a precedent for modifiers not mattering; exactly what alot of ork players want.
Modifiers have never counted for overwatch the reason for explicitly stating it here is Tau units not being charged being allowed to overwatch by another name and some people presumably claiming to hit modifications cout in that instance.
I would hope there is no way thew are going to hand out ignore to hits modifiers army wide after the brokenness that is reaper spam.
oh damn, I thought modifiers like stealth suits have negatively affected overwatch
Nope. Neither positive nor negative modifiers have an effect on overwatch.
I feel I should point out that overwatch does not make the modifiers go away; it just makes them irrelevant to working out hits. Stack enough negative mods on overwatch and you can make overcharging plasma suicidal, just like with regular shooting. Even if it does hit too…
How? If it cannot be modified in any way, how could you make it roll gets hot?
regardless of any modifiers leaves me some very high hopes for orks. It sets a precedent for modifiers not mattering; exactly what alot of ork players want.
Modifiers have never counted for overwatch the reason for explicitly stating it here is Tau units not being charged being allowed to overwatch by another name and some people presumably claiming to hit modifications cout in that instance.
I would hope there is no way thew are going to hand out ignore to hits modifiers army wide after the brokenness that is reaper spam.
oh damn, I thought modifiers like stealth suits have negatively affected overwatch
Nope. Neither positive nor negative modifiers have an effect on overwatch.
I feel I should point out that overwatch does not make the modifiers go away; it just makes them irrelevant to working out hits. Stack enough negative mods on overwatch and you can make overcharging plasma suicidal, just like with regular shooting. Even if it does hit too…
How? If it cannot be modified in any way, how could you make it roll gets hot?
Your premise is not correct.
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (Including rolling to-hit) and uses all the normal rules except:
"A 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's ballistic skill or any modifiers)."
The roll is made normally, with modifiers applying as normal for a shooting attack. If you roll a 1 or lower, including through modifiers, you could trigger Mortal Wound or instadeath mechanics, as normal for that weapon in a shooting attack. The only aspect in which modifiers don't apply is in determining what is "required for a successful hit roll".
Galas wrote: Nope. "You can add 1 to wound rolls for any other T'au Sept units". But those to wound rolls don't need to be agaisnt the unit you are using the stratagem into it. If the unit has more than one weapon it can totally shot one weapon to that target, the other weapons to other targets, and all of them receive +1 to wound.
I'm not gonna use this that way, of course, I agree with you the RAI is clear. But this will be FAQ'ed or people will be abuse it for free +1 to Wound.
Spoiler:
Just so you're aware, this is wrong RAW as well as RAI.
You use the stratagem when one of your units deals an unsaved wound on an enemy unit. You cannot wound 2 different units at the same time with any ranged weapon in the shooting phase as far as I'm aware? Even if you could, you resolve wounds one at a time so it would still be only able to effect 1 unit. It also says at the end of the stratagem "You can add 1 to wound rolls for any other T'au Sept units from your army that target the same enemy unit this phase."
I misunderstood your argument, RAW I believe you're correct.
Galas wrote: Nope. "You can add 1 to wound rolls for any other T'au Sept units". But those to wound rolls don't need to be agaisnt the unit you are using the stratagem into it. If the unit has more than one weapon it can totally shot one weapon to that target, the other weapons to other targets, and all of them receive +1 to wound.
I'm not gonna use this that way, of course, I agree with you the RAI is clear. But this will be FAQ'ed or people will be abuse it for free +1 to Wound.
Just so you're aware, this is wrong RAW as well as RAI.
You use the stratagem when one of your units deals an unsaved wound on an enemy unit. You cannot wound 2 different units at the same time with any ranged weapon in the shooting phase as far as I'm aware? Even if you could, you resolve wounds one at a time so it would still be only able to effect 1 unit. It also says at the end of the stratagem "You can add 1 to wound rolls for any other T'au Sept units from your army that target the same enemy unit this phase."
I misunderstood your argument, RAW I believe you're correct.
I Don't understand how RAW you can shoot targets other than the Original enemy unit you use the stratagem on.
Why do you cut the sentence in 2 and leave out the "that target the same enemy unit this phase" in "You can add 1 to wound rolls for any other T'au Sept units from your army that target the same enemy unit this phase."
That is changing the wording in your advantage.
I think it's clear but there should be a faq just to avoid these shenanigans
Krull wrote: I Don't understand how RAW you can shoot targets other than the Original enemy unit you use the stratagem on. Why do you cut the sentence in 2 and leave out the "that target the same enemy unit this phase" in "You can add 1 to wound rolls for any other T'au Sept units from your army that target the same enemy unit this phase."
That is changing the wording in your advantage. I think it's clear but there should be a faq just to avoid these shenanigans
The argument is this - I target a unit with a T'au SEPT model and they fail a wound - at this point I play the stratagem. I then target the same unit with another T'au SEPT model that has multiple weapons, let's say a Broadside, and split fire so some of my weapons are targeting other enemy units.
According to the stratagem RAW it could be argued that I get +1 to wound rolls for the phase because I have still, technically, targeted the unit that was the victim of the stratagem. This means I could have +1 to wound another unit that wasn't the victim of the stratagem because my Broadside is firing at the victim of the stratagem too. Does that make sense? It's clearly not RAI but RAW is tricky.
And the Desperation, exploitation, and the predictions of how terrible this codex will be, weeks prior to release, have begun!
That being said, from what I have seen, it looks pretty decent book. 3 CP for that Strat is not so bad. Hopefully there will be some sort of relic that allows CP regeneration.
Excited to see what else they leak as we get closer.
Tsilber wrote: And the Desperation, exploitation, and the predictions of how terrible this codex will be, weeks prior to release, have begun!
That being said, from what I have seen, it looks pretty decent book. 3 CP for that Strat is not so bad. Hopefully there will be some sort of relic that allows CP regeneration.
Excited to see what else they leak as we get closer.
Amazing, isn't it? Just ignore the people who are up in arms about it, the Codex is going to be great. 85% of our units getting buffed, great stratagems and faction traits, and much-needed balance changes? Sign me up.
Wow, this thread is getting scummy. Also, I seriously thjnk they need to get rid of the whole plasma overcharging when negative hits stack. It's not only annoying to keep strack of but is dumb. Really needs to be on a natural 1 for everyone just like overwatch or wounding is natural 6.
Earth127 wrote: Plasma is already one of the more powerfull options in game curently. It does not need a buff.
Not really a nerf though... it's dumb that some armies get this advantage and others don't. Also breaks game lore... "wow... that army is hard to see. Geuss my equipment has a 50% chance of exploding now". I don't even use plasma and I think it's dumb...
Earth127 wrote: It's not the most intelligently designed of flaws. Bedsides do they have overcharging plasma? I thought like eldar they didn't have it.
Who, Tau? Nope, only imperial plasma can overcharge.
Also
For many, the Riptide Battlesuit is the iconic T’au Empire unit, and with the new codex, you can expect to see a LOT more of them on a tabletop near you thanks to a suite of rules improvements. Firstly, the armaments of the Riptide have been tweaked in power to hit harder and have more shots, allowing you to deal more damage with this deadly war machine:
Suuuure it is GW, sure it is. Its not as if crisis suits predated those and are way associated much more with the Tau than a big dumb suit that runs contrary to their doctrine, as they were supposed to dislike titan analogues. Oh wait.
Earth127 wrote: It's not the most intelligently designed of flaws. Bedsides do they have overcharging plasma? I thought like eldar they didn't have it.
Who, Tau? Nope, only imperial plasma can overcharge.
I figured they'd probably limit the trait to weapons with at least 24" range, like Vostroyans. But nope, and they specifically call out the Stormsurge's short-range profiles. So Y'vahras are go.
Earth127 wrote: It's not the most intelligently designed of flaws. Bedsides do they have overcharging plasma? I thought like eldar they didn't have it.
Who, Tau? Nope, only imperial plasma can overcharge.
Chaos plasma can as well.
Eh, chaos plasma is imperial plasma, really. It is from the same manufacturer.
Earth127 wrote: Plasma is already one of the more powerfull options in game curently. It does not need a buff.
Not really a nerf though... it's dumb that some armies get this advantage and others don't. Also breaks game lore... "wow... that army is hard to see. Geuss my equipment has a 50% chance of exploding now". I don't even use plasma and I think it's dumb...
Still better than previous editions, where firing 2 plasma weapons at the same time removed the chance to overheat
Requizen wrote: /sigh, and I was just getting used to not seeing Riptides...
It's okay, they still don't seem very good, just not outright useless.
I dunno man, coming down in points and getting massively boosted guns and a really good 1CP Stratagem is a big jump. I don't know much about Tau but just looking at that I would think you'd have to be crazy to not have at least one in your army.
Requizen wrote: /sigh, and I was just getting used to not seeing Riptides...
It's okay, they still don't seem very good, just not outright useless.
I dunno man, coming down in points and getting massively boosted guns and a really good 1CP Stratagem is a big jump. I don't know much about Tau but just looking at that I would think you'd have to be crazy to not have at least one in your army.
It's a big jump, but the unit needs to consistently mortal wound itself to get a good rate of fire going, and then is BS4+ so will miss half it's shots.
And it's still a very pricey unit, the 50 point cut just takes it down from "How could the playtesters possibly have missed how overpriced this is?"
Assumes I'm an idiot who can't parse a changed unit correctly, but rude.
Particularly as I didn't express an extreme or emotional reaction in the first place. I'm just telling a guy not to worry as despite the buff the unit has just gone from "So underpowered it's not worth looking at" to "Nothing amazing, but usable."
You can be dramatic and assume things if you want. All I did was read your posts at face value.
Saying a unit is not garbage but not useless, is laughable, and does demonstrate a kneejerk response.
Edit: I could demonstrate how that leak makes riptides extremely powerful, but then I am sure you would dig into that hole deeper and we would derail the thread.
I will say, I was being more lighthearted in my ribbing before and you shouldn't take every response on the internet as an all out attack. Sorry if you took it as flat rudeness though.
Actually looking into things I'd got the point cost off by a chunk by doing the leaks from memory, so I'd tentatively class the riptide as decent rather than slightly underpowered.
It isn't back to being a super powerful must take, but that's mostly due to markerlights being a lot poorer and the lack of a way to apply high BS markers in 8th.
changemod wrote: Actually looking into things I'd got the point cost off by a chunk by doing the leaks from memory, so I'd tentatively class the riptide as decent rather than slightly underpowered.
It isn't back to being a super powerful must take, but that's mostly due to markerlights being a lot poorer and the lack of a way to apply high BS markers in 8th.
Fireblade 2+ marker hit
Skyray got WAY better. That's now 2 more 3+ rerolling 1 shots.
In a pinch 1 CP for +d3 more.
So working with 2 units you probably already have and not trying to take more lights your easily at 4 if not 5 right there.
Tau should not be lighting up the entire enemy army every turn, if that were the case what a stupid army design. Just drop the lights entirely and make everything +1 BS and slightly more expensive. It's fine the way it is.
Every list will have at least 1 riptide. at 244 or 274 a unit that has a14W T7 2+ 3++ with 1 save rerolled a turn(CP) AND savior protocols that thing is almost unkillable. Meanwhile even without lights but an ethereal nearby your getting 3.5 S9 ap -3 3damage hits a turn. Invest in ATS and it's -4.... They are basically a predator annihilator with more wounds a better save and a fething invuln.
EDIT: BTW walking back your comment because you rushed to judgement is the definition of Kneejerk rersponse...
Mutiple detachments is basically the way GW is expecting people to go. The detachments are basically just buffs for groups of units - only in fluff are they linked to a subfaction group with some identity and colour scheme.
But in practical game terms I suspect many players will use multiple groups together
Guyver 3 wrote: bork’an is looking better and better. But I still think multiple detachments of various septs will be the way to go!
This guy gets it
I’m actually not sure about this. There don’t seem to be huge numbers of units that don’t benefit most from either borkan or Tau (I’m limiting apostrophes today).
Stealths are one exception. If you want stealths then you want them to be able to advance and fire with no penalty. Or you just want them to be Tau. Borkan is no use for them, anyway.
Overall I think I like The Tau sept best. Focused fire is great and being hard to charge is, too.
A key argument for all being from one sept is that all your buffs, notably including For the Greater Good, work on everything. I’m pretty sure you’d want that to be the case. Trouble is, that makes the weaker or more specialised options even worse. You won’t want a sept that gives you marginally better idiot if it means that the rest of your army effectively gets nothing.
I wish there was a version of shadowsun in her ghostkeel.
FirePainter wrote: Y'varhas are now crazy with getting to reroll a dice on the number of flamer gaks
And people say FW is totally fine and "balanced"
It will be even funnier when this Sept trait goes on top of Ta'unar Supremacy Armour. The short range of half of its arms will turn into long range, to match its main gun and allowing for even more screening, negating its only weakness. The reroll die stratagem will also the Ta'unar far better than it was, mere 1 pitiful CP to ensure titan grade weapons never whiff random die roll? Can you say Bonk'ers Sept?
Eh, it's no different than the GW side of things. Y'Vahras are paper thin for 400+ points. Yeah, they tear new ones across the battlefield, but on their own, they're no more durable than a 100-pt tank. You have to work pretty hard with drone placement just to keep them alive long enough to see a round of shooting if you don't go first. With a 14" flamer and 18" move, they'll be getting focused down really fast.
I agree that Borkan is pretty easily the best Sept, but let's not get too emotional about the reroll strat. It's basically an extremely limited version of the 1-die reroll that every army already has and has had since the incept of 8th. It's situationally useful and certainly not outrageously powerful.
Without discussing the overall power of the upcoming Tau or it's place in the meta, it looks to me like the GW studio isn't really sure about the design philosophy of the Tau.
The hammerhead didn't need to get cheaper it needed to be upgunned significantly. It should be pretty premium in points and it should be as scary as a triple lascannon predator but faster.
They don't seem to have put effort into the iconic units but rather have replaced them with their "newer iconic" units. Stormsurge for the hammerhead, riptide for the crisis suit and ghostkeel for the stealthsuit .
BrotherGecko wrote: Without discussing the overall power of the upcoming Tau or it's place in the meta, it looks to me like the GW studio isn't really sure about the design philosophy of the Tau.
They never really have been.
The hammerhead didn't need to get cheaper it needed to be upgunned significantly. It should be pretty premium in points and it should be as scary as a triple lascannon predator but faster.
They don't seem to have put effort into the iconic units but rather have replaced them with their "newer iconic" units. Stormsurge for the hammerhead, riptide for the crisis suit and ghostkeel for the stealthily.
I wouldn't say the Stormsurge or Ghostkeel have 'replaced' the other units. Stealths still have a place(they'd have more of a place if Burst Cannons counted for Volley Fire--but that's neither here nor there) that Ghostkeels can't really match and the Stormsurge, while 'better' than a Hammerhead also has a significant drawback in that it's a really big target.
BrotherGecko wrote: Without discussing the overall power of the upcoming Tau or it's place in the meta, it looks to me like the GW studio isn't really sure about the design philosophy of the Tau.
The hammerhead didn't need to get cheaper it needed to be upgunned significantly. It should be pretty premium in points and it should be as scary as a triple lascannon predator but faster.
They don't seem to have put effort into the iconic units but rather have replaced them with their "newer iconic" units. Stormsurge for the hammerhead, riptide for the crisis suit and ghostkeel for thestealthily.
IDK man, hammer head aside, skyrays seem filthy. Feeding someone 6 krak missiles first turn seems like a pretty amazing way of anti tanking your enemy for their points. Devilfish is also crazy cheap for it's level of gun and 12 wounds. Not quite a wave serpent but also much cheaper.
Red Corsair wrote: They are much more durable then a 100 point tank mate. Objectively so. That said I agree with you that their current cost hardly makes them broken.
Well, okay, fair enough. They don't really have that much staying power over a standard Marine tank, but they are certainly noticeably tougher with their 5++ and nova reactor bonuses and whatnot. As we both agreed, however, they are not at all broken because of how crazy expensive they are. You pay through the nose for that flamer of doom!
As for the Skyray, I'm hopeful Seekers stay the same cost, so you'd get a solid first-turn threat for ~150pts. I don't know that I'd take it over just having a bunch of seekers on other units, but it's worth considering.
Eh, it's no different than the GW side of things. Y'Vahras are paper thin for 400+ points. Yeah, they tear new ones across the battlefield, but on their own, they're no more durable than a 100-pt tank. You have to work pretty hard with drone placement just to keep them alive long enough to see a round of shooting if you don't go first. With a 14" flamer and 18" move, they'll be getting focused down really fast.
I agree that Borkan is pretty easily the best Sept, but let's not get too emotional about the reroll strat. It's basically an extremely limited version of the 1-die reroll that every army already has and has had since the incept of 8th. It's situationally useful and certainly not outrageously powerful.
Well, the re-roll is a very popular stratagem for a reason, and to have an "extra" one in each shooting phase is powerful. People'd use it twice each shooting phase in a shooty army if they could all the time.
And the main reason the Y'vahra isn't using its fancy deep strike a lot is the fact it cannot use its 8" super-flamer the turn it drops. 14" plasma flamers make deep striking a lot more .... casual.
And the main reason the Y'vahra isn't using its fancy deep strike a lot is the fact it cannot use its 8" super-flamer the turn it drops. 14" plasma flamers make deep striking a lot more .... casual.
Absolutely, but that requires skipping a shooting phase. Assuming you're not crippled by wounds, 18" move is probably sufficient to get you in range of something worth flaming without the need to reposition.
Eh, it's no different than the GW side of things. Y'Vahras are paper thin for 400+ points. Yeah, they tear new ones across the battlefield, but on their own, they're no more durable than a 100-pt tank. You have to work pretty hard with drone placement just to keep them alive long enough to see a round of shooting if you don't go first. With a 14" flamer and 18" move, they'll be getting focused down really fast.
I agree that Borkan is pretty easily the best Sept, but let's not get too emotional about the reroll strat. It's basically an extremely limited version of the 1-die reroll that every army already has and has had since the incept of 8th. It's situationally useful and certainly not outrageously powerful.
Well, the re-roll is a very popular stratagem for a reason, and to have an "extra" one in each shooting phase is powerful. People'd use it twice each shooting phase in a shooty army if they could all the time.
And the main reason the Y'vahra isn't using its fancy deep strike a lot is the fact it cannot use its 8" super-flamer the turn it drops. 14" plasma flamers make deep striking a lot more .... casual.
I couldn't tell you the last game I played where my opponent didnt regret deepstriking in general. In a game littered with 4point models, anti deployment set ups are novel.
I couldn't tell you the last game I played where my opponent didnt regret deepstriking in general. In a game littered with 4point models, anti deployment set ups are novel.
Well, the Y'vahra deep strikes late-game. It usually starts on the board and relies on drones to survive the alpha strike. But that fancy skyleap-style deepstrike it does have was basically never used because you effectively skipped 2 shooting phases, not 1, with its most potent weapon.
Not saying it'll be the new Dark Reapers, but it makes a thing it has a somewhat more viable option and it has been a popular choice for Tau armies as an index army already, probably the next-best thing they had besides straight-up commander spam. It might be weak compared to Nurgle cheese-fests, but an already strong (for Index Tau) unit getting bascially tailor-made buffs all-round with the codex can't be bad.
The new Tau are trash tier. I know many people are suspecting this but don’t want to say it yet. At this point the only competitive unit is the Y’vahra, but it’s a FW unit and therefore banned more often than not. Even so, it’s most likely getting the nerf hammer when FW does the codex update.
Honestly these stratagems are hilarious. For 1 cp one unit gets an inv save on top of paltry 6 bonus shots, but still takes a mortal wound. Or better yet, for 1 cp one unit can become Catachan for one turn! Great!
The power levels for GW releases truly go in a roller coaster. Where’s the ”shoot again” stratagem? Where’s the RG/Admech/AL infiltrate gem? Where’s the -1 to be hit passive? Where’s the Ynnari passive? Where’s ANYTHING that’s actually competitive level?
Is someone here seriously impressed by hunter killer missiles now? Something that even the most casual Imperium players don’t bother to use? Or are we supposed to be wowed that a 250p Riptide can do 3 wounds total to an Eldar flyer with the nova HBC? Did anyone mathhammer any of this crap? We live in a meta where this garbage just does not cut it.
I mean your comparing whats good to THE biggest problem of all the releases to date, the eldar codex with it's 5 ways to modify your chance to hit. This isn't a Tau only issue, in fact everything in the game except reapers have this issue.
Occam's razor says fix the minus to hit mechanic problem. FAQ modifiers to never stack and suddenly the game looks completely different.
Then there is the fact that 40k was never intended to be played as competition, not justifying that position but stating it because anyone that thinks this is ever going to change should stop wasting their time and find another game to play competitively.
Chess uses identical pieces on an even board yet white always goes first, thus rendering it imbalanced. How people can continue to believe an abstract game with home made tables and measurements done by eye played with a few hundred diferent pieces that can be brought in some thousands of combos each with a plethora of options per unit, per model can somehow be balanced and fair enough for every faction to play evenly never ceases to amaze me.
Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.
Therion wrote: Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.
Therion wrote: The new Tau are trash tier. I know many people are suspecting this but don’t want to say it yet.
Nah. We're just level headed enough to not jump off a cliff before we've played with the book.
Honestly these stratagems are hilarious. For 1 cp one unit gets an inv save on top of paltry 6 bonus shots, but still takes a mortal wound. Or better yet, for 1 cp one unit can become Catachan for one turn! Great!
Or they get to be Vostroyan AND Catachan for a turn. Glass half full or seppuku..hmm
The power levels for GW releases truly go in a roller coaster. Where’s the ”shoot again” stratagem? Where’s the RG/Admech/AL infiltrate gem? Where’s the -1 to be hit passive? Where’s the Ynnari passive? Where’s ANYTHING that’s actually competitive level?
Gee, I don't know. Maybe there's other stratagems? Nah. We've definitely seen everything. Where is AM's strat to +1 wound from the whole army?
Therion wrote: Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.
Save your rants for when everything is out.
Everything IS out. The guys are ATT leaked the whole book, which fueled my rant. I guess next you’ll say ”We don’t know until we have at least five GTs behind us with the codex”. After that it’ll be ”Let’s wait for Chapter Approved”.
Therion wrote: Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.
Save your rants for when everything is out.
Everything IS out. The guys are ATT leaked the whole book, which fueled my rant. I guess next you’ll say ”We don’t know until we have at least five GTs behind us with the codex”. After that it’ll be ”Let’s wait for Chapter Approved”.
Literally half this website when the Eldar book came out:
"Eldar is trash now, they didn't buff enough and the things that got stronger didn't get stronger enough! No one will ever use this book!"
Therion wrote: Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.
Save your rants for when everything is out.
Everything IS out. The guys are ATT leaked the whole book, which fueled my rant. I guess next you’ll say ”We don’t know until we have at least five GTs behind us with the codex”. After that it’ll be ”Let’s wait for Chapter Approved”.
Literally half this website when the Eldar book came out:
"Eldar is trash now, they didn't buff enough and the things that got stronger didn't get stronger enough! No one will ever use this book!"
Exactly, but my favorite dates back to 6th when everyone claimed wraith knights were just two wraithlords and total garbage, then a month later every list had 3.
For the health of the game, GW does need to fix hit modifiers, but again, this is not a Tau specific problem and would be so easily fixed by making modifiers so they don't stack.
Therion wrote: You’ll never find a post from me saying any of those things so I don’t see how other people’s miscalculations are relevant here.
Just because you didn't walk into a wall in the past doesn't preclude you from ever doing it in the future. Tau seem very balanced which is a good thing. Comparing them to busted hit mechanics or the biggest offender codex seems like a poor decision.
Therion wrote: You’ll never find a post from me saying any of those things so I don’t see how other people’s miscalculations are relevant here.
Oh right my bad, forgot that you were infallible and your predictions are prophecy.
Get a grip. Without having any games under anybody's belt, there's no way to know how the book will play. All we know is that it is generally a buff other than a couple things that were being abused. Maybe it will be bad and require a buff in CA, but there's no way right now to call something garbage when all we have are leaks that no one has actually used other than playtesters.
rtb02 wrote: Wow, so much positivity for an unseen book... :(
It’s not an unseen book though.
That said, it’s interesting that apparently negative reviews are baseless and premature, but it’s acceptable to be hyped about hunter killer missiles and command points that can make you Catachan for a turn. Carry on.
rtb02 wrote: Wow, so much positivity for an unseen book... :(
It’s not an unseen book though.
That said, it’s interesting that apparently negative reviews are baseless and premature, but it’s acceptable to be hyped about hunter killer missiles and command points that can make you Catachan for a turn. Carry on.
There's negative reviews, then there are reviews where one is entirely critical and full of doom and gloom made on ones ass having never built a single list...
Therion wrote: Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.
Save your rants for when everything is out.
Everything IS out. The guys are ATT leaked the whole book, which fueled my rant. I guess next you’ll say ”We don’t know until we have at least five GTs behind us with the codex”. After that it’ll be ”Let’s wait for Chapter Approved”.
REEEEEEEEEEE. Just calm down man. It'll all be fine.
Therion wrote: Even if we changed the modifier system and deleted Dark Reapers these new Tau would still be an army with no soup potential, no psychic buffs and no psychic defense whatsoever, no staying power to win on objectives alone, no special deployment options like SM Scouts to get board control, no alternative win conditions from assault units tying up the enemy army, and finally weapon and stat profiles that mathhammer worse than many existing units in the game. In short, a one dimensional non starter.
Save your rants for when everything is out.
Everything IS out. The guys are ATT leaked the whole book, which fueled my rant. I guess next you’ll say ”We don’t know until we have at least five GTs behind us with the codex”. After that it’ll be ”Let’s wait for Chapter Approved”.
At least we don't have to listen to tneva tell us everything is a sales ploy now and Gamgee won't come back. Win win.
I'm poking over at ATT and I don't see a full on leak.
I do see...
D3 heal
Ignore brackets for a suit
So unless you have a link...no...they have not leaked the whole book. I do see a bunch of people spazzing though.
Is this you?
Shaal wrote: There’s a stratagem that allows you to ignore the wound level of a battlesuit for the turn.
relasine wrote: I'm still seeing lots of holes that have me super-concerned.
Is there anything like the following in the codex?
1. A stratagem, wargear, or ability that allows you to ignore penalties to shooting (RE: the Alaitoc Craftworld Trait)
2. Is there a stratagem that allows a unit to shoot twice?
3. Is there a JSJ stratagem for suits?
4. Any psychic defense (Kroot Shaman, etc.)
Shaal wrote: No
No
No, but the T’au relic sort of does
No
I've been following things on ATT pretty closely and I have not seen the whole book leaked yet. One guy posted the heavy burst cannons profile then deleted his account. As for the rest at least wait to see all the points changes and strategems before you go off for a rant and tear. After that sure be my guest.
FirePainter wrote: I've been following things on ATT pretty closely and I have not seen the whole book leaked yet. One guy posted the heavy burst cannons profile then deleted his account. As for the rest at least wait to see all the points changes and strategems before you go off for a rant and tear. After that sure be my guest.
FirePainter wrote: I've been following things on ATT pretty closely and I have not seen the whole book leaked yet. One guy posted the heavy burst cannons profile then deleted his account. As for the rest at least wait to see all the points changes and strategems before you go off for a rant and tear. After that sure be my guest.
So he lied to make a point?
Yes - same thing happened when Craftworlds came out too. End of the world, you know until they sweep LVO.
daedalus wrote: I don't really think it's a big deal Tau doesn't have psychic defense in this edition after the smite nerf.
Yea, and T'au has access to hordes now with how cheap fire warriors are. Yes, they don't have psychic powers or close combat prowess but they sure as hell have the speed, durability, and top notch shooting.
daedalus wrote: I don't really think it's a big deal Tau doesn't have psychic defense in this edition after the smite nerf.
Only if your only playing against smite spam, plenty of other psychic powers have will negate alot of benifits eg no way to stop psychic assisted deepstrike charges So bubble wrap but oh only ghostkeels and stealths have infiltrate, neither are really bubble wrap units. Not bad but some units are still really sounding redundant looking at you kroot pathfinders a little less but vanguard rules realy need to die in a fire
Only if your only playing against smite spam, plenty of other psychic powers have will negate alot of benifits eg no way to stop psychic assisted deepstrike charges So bubble wrap but oh only ghostkeels and stealths have infiltrate, neither are really bubble wrap units. Not bad but some units are still really sounding redundant looking at you kroot pathfinders a little less but vanguard rules realy need to die in a fire
Wouldn't your bubblewrap be fire warriors? Why would you bubblewrap with ghostkeels or stealth suits?
Only if your only playing against smite spam, plenty of other psychic powers have will negate alot of benifits eg no way to stop psychic assisted deepstrike charges So bubble wrap but oh only ghostkeels and stealths have infiltrate, neither are really bubble wrap units. Not bad but some units are still really sounding redundant looking at you kroot pathfinders a little less but vanguard rules realy need to die in a fire
Wouldn't your bubblewrap be fire warriors? Why would you bubblewrap with ghostkeels or stealth suits?
Linked to GW France - apparently Brets were French inspired
Well yeah, wasn't it obvious? Unlike 40k, fantasy was pretty clear with its source of inspiration, as a lot of it was based off of real things. Brets were clearly based off of french arthurian knights. I mean, one of their dukedoms is called Carcassonne, which is a real French town.
Therion wrote: You’ll never find a post from me saying any of those things so I don’t see how other people’s miscalculations are relevant here.
Past performance is not an indicator of future results.
Except when it supports the argument of the Positivity Police, apparently. Or did you miss that the chain you're quoting started with someone basically saying "some people overreacted about Eldar stuff before, so people *must* be overreacting about Tau now"?
Only if your only playing against smite spam, plenty of other psychic powers have will negate alot of benifits eg no way to stop psychic assisted deepstrike charges So bubble wrap but oh only ghostkeels and stealths have infiltrate, neither are really bubble wrap units. Not bad but some units are still really sounding redundant looking at you kroot pathfinders a little less but vanguard rules realy need to die in a fire
Wouldn't your bubblewrap be fire warriors? Why would you bubblewrap with ghostkeels or stealth suits?
I think he meant infiltrate deep strike denial
The problem with firewarrior bubble wrap is it won't stop any unit that can fight twice from killing the firewarriors and just consolidate, pile in, consolidating to lock the next closest unit so you can't shoot them.
Ok most of the big stuff has fly but appart from hopeing your firewarriors don't get locked in CC not realy seeing anyway to resist melee alpha strike armies apart from lots of points in egg men.
I wanted the codex to be good, and I'll wait till the codex drops for the final verdict but seeing some nasty counter stratagies that invalidate a lot of the supposed benifits they have listed.
Pathfinders and kroot vanguard move is so easily shut down its pointless unless your throwing away a stealth team or ghostkeel to open up an area for them to advance into.
but seeing some nasty counter stratagies that invalidate a lot of the supposed benifits they have listed.
So...its balanced then? I could be misunderstanding you, but I don't think having benefits that have no real weaknesses aren't healthy for the game. See : Eldar in 6th and 7th ed.
One of the strategique elements of a wargame is to be aware of your weaknesses, and take steps to make sure your opponent doesn't exploit it. I don't know how in this case as we don't have the book yet, but I'm sure there's something you can do.
Ice_can wrote: Only if your only playing against smite spam, plenty of other psychic powers have will negate alot of benifits eg no way to stop psychic assisted deepstrike charges
Besides best overwatch in the game you mean?
Tau had no psychic defense in 6th or 7th either. You know, era of conclaves, TS, and seer councils vomiting D-shots by bucketload. Remind me, were Tau bottom grade army then?
Im happy about most of the changes. I like suits, but I've always played hammerheads and FW in devilfish. Not huge castles, but not suit spam either.
Plus, I expect that when the 'enclaves' book finally comes out, there will be some sort of points adjustment or rules compensation making suit spam much more appealing. They couldn't put it into the core tau book without crippling their ability to push out a farsight enclaves sub faction later.
Soup will come, but lets let every main codex get at least its codex before we start complaining about not having three options for allies.
The problem with firewarrior bubble wrap is it won't stop any unit that can fight twice from killing the firewarriors and just consolidate, pile in, consolidating to lock the next closest unit so you can't shoot them. Ok most of the big stuff has fly but appart from hopeing your firewarriors don't get locked in CC not realy seeing anyway to resist melee alpha strike armies apart from lots of points in egg men.
Outside of i think broadsides doesn't literally everything else have fly in your army meaning you can just leave combat and shoot anyway? edit nvm im bad at reading. though still how is this a problem?
I was told and read online that pink horrors were garbage and totally nerfed in the daemon book
I was even asked at a tournament why I was even taking 60 of them until they ripped into the opponents chaff units with 180 range 18” st4 shots rerolling 1’s
Sound familiar?
Not only will fire warriors have the same at the same cost but will also be st5 and have greater range!
8th is all about numbers
If you’re playing an opponent with combat alpha strike then take the tau sept and see how they like Markerlights 180 shots hitting on 5+ and then photon grenades for that sweet -1 to hit in cc which everyone seems to forget!
I was told and read online that pink horrors were garbage and totally nerfed in the daemon book
I was even asked at a tournament why I was even taking 60 of them until they ripped into the opponents chaff units with 180 range 18” st4 shots rerolling 1’s
Sound familiar?
Not only will fire warriors have the same at the same cost but will also be st5 and have greater range!
8th is all about numbers
If you’re playing an opponent with combat alpha strike then take the tau sept and see how they like Markerlights 180 shots hitting on 5+ and then photon grenades for that sweet -1 to hit in cc which everyone seems to forget!
Tau aren’t dead...
But they aren’t the same.
I think a good % of the mad group may be due to them investing heavily into suits rather than base troops. especially since previous editions they were just meh.
I think someone else got whats bugging me right earlier, I just don't get the feeling of GW having a vision for what a TAU army is supposed to be now. Massed firewarriors just feels like guard but different. The big suits are in a wierd place of GW over nerfed them in the index to go look we made them so much better. But the codex feels like its suffering form GW lacking the design concept of the army so it's an odd mish mash of good and bad without design.
There's been a lot of rudeness and off-topic posting on the past few pages.
Rule #1: Be Polite.
The codex isn't out yet, no one should be arguing. I've already seen people misread things that have been officially released, so save the speculative outrage for the actual codex release.
Further violations will results in moderator action.
via realmanig on Advanced Tau Tactica
relating to relics
From the grapvine(ie. not me):
T’au Sept – Commander can Jump, Shoot, Jump
Farsight – Fusion Gun, Fusion Blades in CC Bor’kan – Good plasma gun, I remember fixed damage 3, for S and AP Flamer Upgrade – S6, AP-1, 8″ auto hit
Onager Gauntlet – S10, AP -4, Damage D6 Airbursting Frag Launcher – S6 AP-1, D2, can shoot at targets out of LoS.
via realmanig on Advanced Tau Tactica
relating to relics
From the grapvine(ie. not me):
T’au Sept – Commander can Jump, Shoot, Jump
Farsight – Fusion Gun, Fusion Blades in CC Bor’kan – Good plasma gun, I remember fixed damage 3, for S and AP Flamer Upgrade – S6, AP-1, 8″ auto hit
Onager Gauntlet – S10, AP -4, Damage D6 Airbursting Frag Launcher – S6 AP-1, D2, can shoot at targets out of LoS.
Was there anything about any of the other codex?
(particularly Necrons)
Linked to GW France - apparently Brets were French inspired and it also makes mention of Sisters too
Semi-official teasing/hints?!
No. It's just a funny video from a shop's staff and players.
I know some of the people from the video, I'll ask them if I see one of them in the near future, but I'm positive the SoB mention is just trolling.
Is there a single person alive that knows who the Brets are that doesn't believe they were inspired by the french? I mean, it's not exactly obscure information!
via realmanig on Advanced Tau Tactica
relating to relics
From the grapvine(ie. not me):
T’au Sept – Commander can Jump, Shoot, Jump
Farsight – Fusion Gun, Fusion Blades in CC Bor’kan – Good plasma gun, I remember fixed damage 3, for S and AP Flamer Upgrade – S6, AP-1, 8″ auto hit
Onager Gauntlet – S10, AP -4, Damage D6 Airbursting Frag Launcher – S6 AP-1, D2, can shoot at targets out of LoS.
Was there anything about any of the other codex?
(particularly Necrons)
Us in ATT do not really care for anyone not Tau.
Even if there was info, it would probably not be in ATT.
I was told and read online that pink horrors were garbage and totally nerfed in the daemon book
I was even asked at a tournament why I was even taking 60 of them until they ripped into the opponents chaff units with 180 range 18” st4 shots rerolling 1’s
Sound familiar?
Not only will fire warriors have the same at the same cost but will also be st5 and have greater range!
8th is all about numbers
If you’re playing an opponent with combat alpha strike then take the tau sept and see how they like Markerlights 180 shots hitting on 5+ and then photon grenades for that sweet -1 to hit in cc which everyone seems to forget!
Tau aren’t dead...
But they aren’t the same.
.
I think a good % of the mad group may be due to them investing heavily into suits rather than base troops. especially since previous editions they were just meh.
I'm going to be playing mostly suits but I'm certainly not mad. Riptide/Broadside/Ghostkeel buffs/ point reductions, Stormsurges Pulse Driver Cannon buff. Also excited about the FSE stratagem that gives Crisis suits +1 to hit after using Manta Strike (if it's indeed +1 to hit so I can safely overcharge CIBs and not just +1 BS). Pity that the Homing Beacon is most likely getting nerfed (was a nice niche for flamer Crisis suits and would've been an excellent way to make use of the FSE trait) and that Crisis suits haven't seen a minor point drop but eh, I'll live. Don't care about the 1 Commander per detachment thing either, I mean, they're supposed to COMMAND armies, as in there's only one or a few of them, not 10 that make up the army all by themselves. I'd rather have a few strong Commander suits than be able to spam a low of weaker ones (because let's face it, a nerf was necessary anyway).
Kirasu wrote: Is there a single person alive that knows who the Brets are that doesn't believe they were inspired by the french? I mean, it's not exactly obscure information!
Well, they occupied the rough geographical location of France on the old Warhammer map and some units had French-ish names (e.g. Trebuchet, but it was also called Trebuchet in non-french-speaking parts of Europe in the Middle Ages). A majority of inspiration for the army were actually King Arthur myths, if I am not mistaken. Grail Quest. Lady from the Lake. Etc.., etc.. Also Richard I. of England (e.g. Lionheart, though for some reason they french-ified it to Leoncoeur). It's a really odd army really .. inspired mostly by Medieval and Mythical England, but with french-ified names to fit it's location on a faux-fantasy-Europe map.
I was told and read online that pink horrors were garbage and totally nerfed in the daemon book
I was even asked at a tournament why I was even taking 60 of them until they ripped into the opponents chaff units with 180 range 18” st4 shots rerolling 1’s
Sound familiar?
Not only will fire warriors have the same at the same cost but will also be st5 and have greater range!
8th is all about numbers
If you’re playing an opponent with combat alpha strike then take the tau sept and see how they like Markerlights 180 shots hitting on 5+ and then photon grenades for that sweet -1 to hit in cc which everyone seems to forget!
Tau aren’t dead...
But they aren’t the same.
.
I think a good % of the mad group may be due to them investing heavily into suits rather than base troops. especially since previous editions they were just meh.
I'm going to be playing mostly suits but I'm certainly not mad. Riptide/Broadside/Ghostkeel buffs/ point reductions, Stormsurges Pulse Driver Cannon buff. Also excited about the FSE stratagem that gives Crisis suits +1 to hit after using Manta Strike (if it's indeed +1 to hit so I can safely overcharge CIBs and not just +1 BS). Pity that the Homing Beacon is most likely getting nerfed (was a nice niche for flamer Crisis suits and would've been an excellent way to make use of the FSE trait) and that Crisis suits haven't seen a minor point drop but eh, I'll live. Don't care about the 1 Commander per detachment thing either, I mean, they're supposed to COMMAND armies, as in there's only one or a few of them, not 10 that make up the army all by themselves. I'd rather have a few strong Commander suits than be able to spam a low of weaker ones (because let's face it, a nerf was necessary anyway).
Is that because the units name is "commander"? Military ranks don't always map 1:1 to the definition of the specific word they happened to choose. We have 4x the # of Brigadier Generals than we have Brigades in the current US army and a captain in a company is very different than a captain at the Pentagon. In 40k terms, you could have a ton of SM captains despite having less than 1 battle company. It's pretty arbitrary to apply this restriction to Tau.
Kirasu wrote: Is there a single person alive that knows who the Brets are that doesn't believe they were inspired by the french? I mean, it's not exactly obscure information!
Well, they occupied the rough geographical location of France on the old Warhammer map and some units had French-ish names (e.g. Trebuchet, but it was also called Trebuchet in non-french-speaking parts of Europe in the Middle Ages). A majority of inspiration for the army were actually King Arthur myths, if I am not mistaken. Grail Quest. Lady from the Lake. Etc.., etc.. Also Richard I. of England (e.g. Lionheart, though for some reason they french-ified it to Leoncoeur). It's a really odd army really .. inspired mostly by Medieval and Mythical England, but with french-ified names to fit it's location on a faux-fantasy-Europe map.
Which(Arthurian legends) in turn comes from French according to some. So more french ties.
So, judging by what I have seen so far, it is pretty disappointing that Crisis Suits are not that great. I still think suit armies will still be viable, but it seems like better options for suits still exist. Oh well. I still plan on getting a Commander and making him into a Coldstar. Or I might just get CharFarsight. I don't want a Tau force, but the stuff I want I want to make decently powerful, so that if I change my mind, I can use them and not feel dumb.
Crazyterran wrote: Next youll tell me that Space Marines are from Starship Troopers (the books) and Navigators are from Dune!
Nah. Space Marines are just a sci-fi port of GW's super-popular big, heavily armoured Chaos Warriors. Basically a lazy cross-game/setting copy-&-paste of their most popular miniature to prop up that ailing other game system they had going.
