Spreelock wrote: And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).
I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.
While the codex seems pretty solid, surely this stratagem will be top of the list for a 'rebalance':
Makes a unit functionally immortal unless you run out of CP. Works on Flyrants, Trygons, even Harridans. Flyrants can even start next to Tyrant Guard and be untargetable if you don't get first turn.
Spreelock wrote: And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).
I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.
Honestly I kind love this solution to the balance issue with indirect fire. Must have a spotter unit and can't just sit hidden in ruins plinking away with impunity. I hope the IG codex has a similar rule.
Spreelock wrote: And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).
I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.
The impaler cannon is only S6 now with a 24" range and requires a spotter to shoot out of LOS, they got 10 points more expensive and lost the shoot twice stratagem and aren't Core. They still have their uses, but they're not the auto-take they use to be.
Not that that is a necessarily bad thing. The new codex has so many nice things I'm hard pressed to fit everything I want to play with in a list.
So all Screamer Killers in the army can have M14 (using Hydra and Tervigon Synaptic Imperative) for one turn or a 4++?
Count me in with 9 Screamer Killers rampaging through the enemy!
Also Genestealers might be much better than anticipated. You can set them up 9 inch away from the enemy at deployment. So if you get first turn, they have a guaranteed charge, unless the oponent starts really at the back of his deployment zone.
Spreelock wrote: And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).
I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.
Yeah, they are still good to have around, but far from their former glory. My reasons are;
- no double shoot mechanic (this was not surprising though)
- getting exploding sixes on shots are rare option
- indirect fire now requires visibility from synapse unit
- strength of shots dropped to 6 (formerly they were optimal unit to shoot at t8 targets, now they've become more suited to hunt down elite infantry)
I'm actually more interested about shock cannons now, their strength 7 wounds average vehicle at 4+.
My goodness the Mawloc has so many attacks. Don't quite know why we had to over-complicate it's burrowing ability, but whatever, 16 attacks is just silly!
Even Raveners look fun with this.
Redemption wrote: The impaler cannon is only S6 now with a 24" range and requires a spotter to shoot out of LOS, they got 10 points more expensive and lost the shoot twice stratagem and aren't Core. They still have their uses, but they're not the auto-take they use to be.
It was a massive over-correction. Nerfing one thing after another and a price increase. I get that they were oppressive in large quantities, and adding the spotter mechanic is an elegant solution that I quite like. But to then nerf the strength and the range of the guns and then make them cost more? Come on!
GW needs to learn how to balance with something other than a pendulum.
xttz wrote: While the codex seems pretty solid, surely this stratagem will be top of the list for a 'rebalance':
Makes a unit functionally immortal unless you run out of CP. Works on Flyrants, Trygons, even Harridans. Flyrants can even start next to Tyrant Guard and be untargetable if you don't get first turn.
Ugh, how does this crap get through playtesting? I agree, it needs to be nuked from orbit but there should also be some blanket errata to the Harridan and Hierophant datasheet that makes them ineligible for all but a select set of strats or something. It drives me bonkers when somebody goes to a tourney and crushes it with these interactions that were never intended.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It was a massive over-correction. Nerfing one thing after another and a price increase. I get that they were oppressive in large quantities, and adding the spotter mechanic is an elegant solution that I quite like. But to then nerf the strength and the range of the guns and then make them cost more? Come on!
GW needs to learn how to balance with something other than a pendulum.
Yeah, they now mostly suffer from internal balance issue.
For 10 points less than 3 hive guard with impaler cannons, you can get an Exocrine: D3+6 36" S8 Ap-4 D3 shots instead of 9 24" S6 Ap-2 D2 shots and 15 T8 2+ wounds instead of 3x T6 W4 3+.
Both are heavy support now and have ways to ignore cover. The extra 10 points, indirect fire and Infantry keyword don't seem to offset that to me.
Ugh, how does this crap get through playtesting? I agree, it needs to be nuked from orbit but there should also be some blanket errata to the Harridan and Hierophant datasheet that makes them ineligible for all but a select set of strats or something. It drives me bonkers when somebody goes to a tourney and crushes it with these interactions that were never intended.
What 'unintended interactions' are you looking at?
This seems pretty straightforward- you take the unit off the table until the end of your next movement phase. You just have to pick different units every other turn.
I'm not speaking specifically about that strat, but I think a Harridan playing peekaboo is a little much.
In general, I don't think GW is thinking about the Hierophant and the Harridan when it creates widely applicable buffs like Synaptic Links. Maybe CORE will rein a lot of it in, but I'm skeptical.
xttz wrote: While the codex seems pretty solid, surely this stratagem will be top of the list for a 'rebalance':
Makes a unit functionally immortal unless you run out of CP. Works on Flyrants, Trygons, even Harridans. Flyrants can even start next to Tyrant Guard and be untargetable if you don't get first turn.
Ugh, how does this crap get through playtesting? I agree, it needs to be nuked from orbit but there should also be some blanket errata to the Harridan and Hierophant datasheet that makes them ineligible for all but a select set of strats or something. It drives me bonkers when somebody goes to a tourney and crushes it with these interactions that were never intended.
I'm clearly missing some interaction here, but how is a unit functionally immortal with this?
Spreelock wrote: And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).
I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.
The impaler cannon is only S6 now with a 24" range and requires a spotter to shoot out of LOS, they got 10 points more expensive and lost the shoot twice stratagem and aren't Core. They still have their uses, but they're not the auto-take they use to be.
Not that that is a necessarily bad thing. The new codex has so many nice things I'm hard pressed to fit everything I want to play with in a list.
Well, yea, I think people are thinking too much in the sky high territory of crusher stampede.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: I'm not speaking specifically about that strat, but I think a Harridan playing peekaboo is a little much.
Eh? Flyers just leaving the table was the norm for quite a while. It was actually more sane that they couldn't stick around and constantly bombard the enemy.
This is a little exploit-y for hiding characters for an enemy turn and then redeploying with no repercussions, but the harridan specifically doesn't really bother me.
H.B.M.C. wrote: My goodness the Mawloc has so many attacks. Don't quite know why we had to over-complicate it's burrowing ability, but whatever, 16 attacks is just silly!
Even Raveners look fun with this.
Redemption wrote: The impaler cannon is only S6 now with a 24" range and requires a spotter to shoot out of LOS, they got 10 points more expensive and lost the shoot twice stratagem and aren't Core. They still have their uses, but they're not the auto-take they use to be.
It was a massive over-correction. Nerfing one thing after another and a price increase. I get that they were oppressive in large quantities, and adding the spotter mechanic is an elegant solution that I quite like. But to then nerf the strength and the range of the guns and then make them cost more? Come on!
GW needs to learn how to balance with something other than a pendulum.
The extra T, W, and ignore mods matters as does the triple model count ability on occasion. ooLos guns should never have been S8 to begin with. They also picked up an extra shot, so there's quite a bit to this.
Frankly I'd be happy if they removed all the character datasheets from the nids codex. As a faction it works better without the concept of unique characters. The Swarmlord makes sense as a specialist Hive Tyrant that gets birthed out to boss the other Hive Tyrants around during each invasion, but something like Old One Eye? It makes more sense as an Adaptive Physiology upgrade for Carnifexes, likewise the Red Terror as an Adaptive Physiology for a Trygon or Mawloc (yes, I know that the Red Terror is supposed to be an overgrown Ravener. Too bad, we're retconning it now), or Deathleaper as an AP for a Lictor.
Ugh, how does this crap get through playtesting? I agree, it needs to be nuked from orbit but there should also be some blanket errata to the Harridan and Hierophant datasheet that makes them ineligible for all but a select set of strats or something. It drives me bonkers when somebody goes to a tourney and crushes it with these interactions that were never intended.
I usually ignore those models anyway. The biggest sob will be a flyrant that just pulls itself out of combat and warps to the other flank.
chaos0xomega wrote: Frankly I'd be happy if they removed all the character datasheets from the nids codex. As a faction it works better without the concept of unique characters. The Swarmlord makes sense as a specialist Hive Tyrant that gets birthed out to boss the other Hive Tyrants around during each invasion, but something like Old One Eye? It makes more sense as an Adaptive Physiology upgrade for Carnifexes, likewise the Red Terror as an Adaptive Physiology for a Trygon or Mawloc (yes, I know that the Red Terror is supposed to be an overgrown Ravener. Too bad, we're retconning it now), or Deathleaper as an AP for a Lictor.
I think that unique characters are a good thing for any army. Tyranids it just represents a unique evolution or one that requires rare resources so very very few are made. We know that whilst they have near perfect genetic manipulation its not absolutely perfect since they appear to need to have a challenge and rely partly on random evolutionary chance to develop stronger and stronger strains.
It also gets GW make and add new models to the army outside of regular troops and such. Granted GW hasn't really don't much of this with Tyranids. They did add a bunch at one stage, but never added any models; then withdrew them and we've VERY slowly seen one or two sort of re-appear (technically only one - the new model coming out soon). So its something GW has never really capitalised on. Heck I do wonder with the slow pace of some updates to Tyranids, if there's just no one on the team who wants to make more. That or GW are holding it in reserve for a big Necron style relaunch
I wish Tyranids had zero special characters. Just goes against their very nature. Locutus of 'Nid shouldn't be a thing.
Daedalus81 wrote: The extra T, W, and ignore mods matters as does the triple model count ability on occasion.
How much does extra T and W really matter when you're out of LOS anyway?
Daedalus81 wrote: ooLos guns should never have been S8 to begin with.
Because? Based on? Due to? What an arbitrary criticism. Should the Basilisk be reduced to S6 as well?
Daedalus81 wrote: They also picked up an extra shot, so there's quite a bit to this.
And they lost 12" of range, can't shoot their guns as freely as they could, and sent to S6 from S8. And got more expensive. You can spin this as much as you like, it was a mega-nerf. Stop trying to pretend that it wasn't.
Yes, Hive Guard were a problem - I think anyone with half a brain cell could've figured that out - but GW didn't fix they issue. They just bashed them into the ground over and over again.
Overread wrote: I'm clearly missing some interaction here, but how is a unit functionally immortal with this?
Move, shoot, and take it off the table. Your opponent takes their turn. Then you pop back in on yours. If your opponent goes second they'll have one turn where it is on the table for them to shoot at it.
Just take loads of T8 monsters with a maleceptor for -1 S aura, all with obsec and count as 5.
in behemoth for +1S on shock assault
in Jormungandr monsters have dese cover when out side of 18" and non monster unit have it when outside of 12"
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wish Tyranids had zero special characters. Just goes against their very nature. Locutus of 'Nid shouldn't be a thing.
Daedalus81 wrote: The extra T, W, and ignore mods matters as does the triple model count ability on occasion.
How much does extra T and W really matter when you're out of LOS anyway?
Daedalus81 wrote: ooLos guns should never have been S8 to begin with.
Because? Based on? Due to? What an arbitrary criticism. Should the Basilisk be reduced to S6 as well?
Daedalus81 wrote: They also picked up an extra shot, so there's quite a bit to this.
And they lost 12" of range, can't shoot their guns as freely as they could, and sent to S6 from S8. And got more expensive. You can spin this as much as you like, it was a mega-nerf. Stop trying to pretend that it wasn't.
Yes, Hive Guard were a problem - I think anyone with half a brain cell could've figured that out - but GW didn't fix they issue. They just bashed them into the ground over and over again.
Flyers, counter battery, deepstrikers, and moving up to cover objectives when needed.
Basilisk gets D6 shots for the price of two HG. That's absolutely a risk for making IG ooLOS shooting way too good in the future.
Old HG did 2.2 wounds to marines with D3 damage. New ones do 2.7 with flat 2. Heaven forbid you have to move a little now ( with an extra inch of movement ).
As usual D, posting a bunch of math doesn't change the fact that reducing a unit's abilities (significantly) whilst simultaneously increasing its cost is a nerf. And why are you firing S8 guns at Marines rather than tanks or monsters? It's a multi-shot S8 unit, and your argument is "Well the new one's better against Marines than the last one was!". I bet it's better against Guardsmen or Grots or Genestealers as well. But who cares? Why would you fire the last one at Marines??? This unit has been unnecessarily punished.
Anyway, some more leaks have hit, including the various Spores (from small to transport), and the Adaptive Physiologies first page has leaked.
It's pretty much what you'd expect:
If your army is Battle Forged and has Hive Tendril detachments, then you can upgrade any Monster (not Character or Titanic) to get an Adaptive Physiology. You can now take all of them in a single army, but only one of each. No more double Dermic (and no strat to take a second of the same, far as I can tell).
H.B.M.C. wrote: As usual D, posting a bunch of math doesn't change the fact that reducing a unit's abilities (significantly) whilst simultaneously increasing its cost is a nerf. And why are you firing S8 guns at Marines rather than tanks or monsters? It's a multi-shot S8 unit, and your argument is "Well the new one's better against Marines than the last one was!". I bet it's better against Guardsmen or Grots or Genestealers as well. But who cares? Why would you fire the last one at Marines??? This unit has been unnecessarily punished.
It got nerfs. It also got buffs. I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".
H.B.M.C. wrote: As usual D, posting a bunch of math doesn't change the fact that reducing a unit's abilities (significantly) whilst simultaneously increasing its cost is a nerf. And why are you firing S8 guns at Marines rather than tanks or monsters? It's a multi-shot S8 unit, and your argument is "Well the new one's better against Marines than the last one was!". I bet it's better against Guardsmen or Grots or Genestealers as well. But who cares? Why would you fire the last one at Marines??? This unit has been unnecessarily punished.
It got nerfs. It also got buffs. I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".
H.B.M.C. wrote: As usual D, posting a bunch of math doesn't change the fact that reducing a unit's abilities (significantly) whilst simultaneously increasing its cost is a nerf. And why are you firing S8 guns at Marines rather than tanks or monsters? It's a multi-shot S8 unit, and your argument is "Well the new one's better against Marines than the last one was!". I bet it's better against Guardsmen or Grots or Genestealers as well. But who cares? Why would you fire the last one at Marines??? This unit has been unnecessarily punished.
It got nerfs. It also got buffs. I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".
It was nerfed pretty hard. The +1 to hit and the statline update doesn't make up for the nerfs it got, as well as the price increase.
out of LOS shooting should cost a premimum, but I think the nerfs would have been enough without the price increase. or vice versa.
A slight uptick in durability, something that's really needed on units that spent the entire game hiding.
Can't wait for the 2+ save and extra 8 wounds that all Guard artillery units have been crying out for... oh wait...
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".
S8 to S6, a loss of 12" of range, more restrictions on where it can fire and it got a price increase on top of all that. Oh, and now it has to compete with Exocrines, Tyrannofexes and Carnifexes.
If that isn't nerfed into the ground, then I don't know what is.
When you're talking body cost +1M, +1T, +1S, +1W, +1Sv. Then you have the ability to ignore hit penalties for any variant and triple the model count as an action.
As one might imagine, it confirms 0-1 Hive Tyrant per detachment.
The (not actually a rule at the time) Rule of Three was created because of multi-winged HT armies. Can the Hive Tyrant (and, by extension, Tyranid players) please stop paying for this now? It's been years, and you haven't been able to take enough winged HTs to do the thing that was so egregious in the first place. And you got rid of half our weapon options. And you turned our feet talons into weird not-quite ScyTals. And they're far easier to kill than walking Tyranids. And yet they still cost more (190 vs 160).
They're the fething Wraithlords of the 8th Edition+ era, and it's time to let go of that GW.
The Hive Tyrant, Winged Hive Tyrant and Swarmlord all have the 'Hive Tyrant' keyword. The Winged Hive Tyrant has the Hive Tyrant and Winged Hive Tyrant keyword. We shall forever suffer for the sins of the Supreme Command Detachment and it's 5 HQ slots...
When you're talking body cost +1M, +1T, +1S, +1W, +1Sv. Then you have the ability to ignore hit penalties for any variant and triple the model count as an action.
Moreover, the impaler cannon gained one more attack so it is a more anti-infantry gun.
What is really interesting is the shock cannon though.
A slight uptick in durability, something that's really needed on units that spent the entire game hiding.
Can't wait for the 2+ save and extra 8 wounds that all Guard artillery units have been crying out for... oh wait...
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".
S8 to S6, a loss of 12" of range, more restrictions on where it can fire and it got a price increase on top of all that. Oh, and now it has to compete with Exocrines, Tyrannofexes and Carnifexes.
If that isn't nerfed into the ground, then I don't know what is.
Gotta check the Exocrine vs Impaler Hg match up these days.
3 HG vs Exocrine (180 vs 170 point)
HG get 9 shots, S6, AP2, D2, sometimes ignoring LOS, ignoring cover, ignoring hit penalties. 24" range
Exocrine is D3+6, S8, AP4, D3, ignoring cover. 36" Range.
For offensive output, gotta tip the hat to exocrines here. Against -1 Damage they are more than twice as effective, much better AP, and higher strength...with a range that is significantly better. Throw in voracious ammo for +15 points, and you are looking at an extra ~1.66 mortal wound per turn as well.
Defensively;
HG are T6, W4, 3+ sv times 3. Giving 12 wounds total.
Exocrine is T8, W15, 2+ save.
More wounds, a better toughness (across the S4 needing a 6 to wound break point no less) and a better save. Also can benefit from "trans-nid physio" so if you do eat some S9+ fire you can be only wounded on a 4+. Could also go with the 4+ invul if you felt like it for +25 points. Exocrine takes the defensive side of things as well IMO. I'll also mention that the extra range is a defensive buff in and of itself, as you won't have to stick your models into the meat grinder to get a shot off.
This is a SWEET book though. Super stoked to get my hands on it.
I'm clearly missing some interaction here, but how is a unit functionally immortal with this?
Most lists will struggle to kill a Harridan or Hierophant in a single shooting phase. Flyrants can drop back within 3" of Tyrant Guard, and be untargetable for a shooting phase until they can use the strat again.
Feels like a very 'gamey' strat, especially for certain secondaries.
When you're talking body cost +1M, +1T, +1S, +1W, +1Sv. Then you have the ability to ignore hit penalties for any variant and triple the model count as an action.
Moreover, the impaler cannon gained one more attack so it is a more anti-infantry gun.
What is really interesting is the shock cannon though.
Yeah that was the main reason S8 needed to go away. It made Impalers the auto-take option against pretty much any target including vehicles. An extra shot for -2S is a fine trade, and being immune to hit roll modifiers is definitely handy.
I expect at some point in future both Hive Guard weapon options will cost the same number of points, but for now I'm fine with trying new stuff.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So the 'Detachment Abilities' page has leaked.
As one might imagine, it confirms 0-1 Hive Tyrant per detachment.
The (not actually a rule at the time) Rule of Three was created because of multi-winged HT armies. Can the Hive Tyrant (and, by extension, Tyranid players) please stop paying for this now? It's been years, and you haven't been able to take enough winged HTs to do the thing that was so egregious in the first place. And you got rid of half our weapon options. And you turned our feet talons into weird not-quite ScyTals. And they're far easier to kill than walking Tyranids. And yet they still cost more (190 vs 160).
They're the fething Wraithlords of the 8th Edition+ era, and it's time to let go of that GW.
Haven't they put the 0-1 restriction on units which were never spammed? Pretty sure it's a matter of fluff/theme; multiple Hive Tyrants showing up on the same battlefield is probably about as common as multiple Chapter Masters.
I'm clearly missing some interaction here, but how is a unit functionally immortal with this?
Most lists will struggle to kill a Harridan or Hierophant in a single shooting phase. Flyrants can drop back within 3" of Tyrant Guard, and be untargetable for a shooting phase until they can use the strat again.
Feels like a very 'gamey' strat, especially for certain secondaries.
This is like the Hive tyrant rule of three thing. there will be players that will abuse it and others that sometimes use it.
Wasn't it not long ago that a tournament list was measuered on how reliable it can kill 1 24-28W T8 and 4++ save modell? So i think the lonely Harridan which costs you 3CP and which does not get any army bonuses.
Do not get me wrong, can this be anoying? jub. But if you want to nerv it make it not engaged
A slight uptick in durability, something that's really needed on units that spent the entire game hiding.
Can't wait for the 2+ save and extra 8 wounds that all Guard artillery units have been crying out for... oh wait...
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".
S8 to S6, a loss of 12" of range, more restrictions on where it can fire and it got a price increase on top of all that. Oh, and now it has to compete with Exocrines, Tyrannofexes and Carnifexes.
If that isn't nerfed into the ground, then I don't know what is.
Gotta check the Exocrine vs Impaler Hg match up these days.
3 HG vs Exocrine (180 vs 170 point)
HG get 9 shots, S6, AP2, D2, sometimes ignoring LOS, ignoring cover, ignoring hit penalties. 24" range
Exocrine is D3+6, S8, AP4, D3, ignoring cover. 36" Range.
For offensive output, gotta tip the hat to exocrines here. Against -1 Damage they are more than twice as effective, much better AP, and higher strength...with a range that is significantly better. Throw in voracious ammo for +15 points, and you are looking at an extra ~1.66 mortal wound per turn as well.
Defensively;
HG are T6, W4, 3+ sv times 3. Giving 12 wounds total.
Exocrine is T8, W15, 2+ save.
More wounds, a better toughness (across the S4 needing a 6 to wound break point no less) and a better save. Also can benefit from "trans-nid physio" so if you do eat some S9+ fire you can be only wounded on a 4+. Could also go with the 4+ invul if you felt like it for +25 points. Exocrine takes the defensive side of things as well IMO. I'll also mention that the extra range is a defensive buff in and of itself, as you won't have to stick your models into the meat grinder to get a shot off.
This is a SWEET book though. Super stoked to get my hands on it.
Exo might have 2+, but HG are Infantry and can get cover so are effectively 2+ and can adapt into 1+ saves.
A Prime can hand out exploding 6s as well. The body of the HGhad to go up in points even if you don't think the Impaler is worth it.
Kronos puts them to 28" ( not sure if Kronos is viable though ), which covers most of the played field since you need objectives. Exo gun is better, but you need to see the target directly.
Shock Guard has the same range and a similar damage output to the Exocrine against vehicles (depending on target) plus assault so advance and shooting.
Shock Guard may actually be viable, depending on meta.
Multiwound infantry count as 3 models; so 6 shock cannon hive guard, or 6 pyrovores, or 6 warriors all look like decent options. Plus now that there's no limit on individual units you can bring support characters along.
Interestingly Tfexes and Tervigons are 17 wounds now, so are too big to ride. I think only Jormungandr can deep strike them now.
Is anyone else mildly bemused that the book is supposedly end of the month release and we've had a grand total of....2 articles relating to Tyranids?
While Aeldari literally had 3 weeks of articles, one every single damn day about their book and are even getting a datasheet updated 2 weeks after release.
I don't ever want to hear an Eldar player complain GW neglects them ever again so long as Tyranid players merely exist.
Literally, we've had our entire book leak and gotten more from that than GW themselves lol.
EDIT: And this datasheet update better be something to consider to apply to Hive Tyrants and Flyrants. We need to make a lot of noise about our suddenly lost options. Kit interchangeability is a huge thing, especially with Tyranids - if they can get Autarchs fixed we may have some hope. As some have pointed out, we can't even get a quad scytal Tyrant anymore....
Eldar were several new models and multiple upgraded new kits.
GW had a lot more to talk about for Eldar over Tyranids. If Tyranids are end of the month they only need a few weeks of regular articles to push the book over. Remembering that you'll get a whole slew of likely daily updates during pre-order week so that's 3 weeks including the pre-ordering week before things to go retail.
Finally, the main drop pod army gets the proper drop pod assault rule.
Impaler and termagant devourer changes are just stupid. Like maliciously stupid.
Just removing Single-minded annihilation would solve their balance issues, but no, GW had to balefire both loadouts out of the weave of existence.
Genestealers are also difficult to comprehend. I can understand some of the changes, I can understand why they are worse than the older and more experienced purestrains, but why the heck they cost more than the purestrains?
The rest of the codex, though? Chef kiss. GW has clearly put an actual effort into the book, for the first time in a decade.
Brings a tear to my eye that Lictors finally have their proper beastly stats. Took... six? eight? editions to get it done, and I quit actually playing 40K years ago, but the little guys deserved it.
hiveguard still has some uses, because NLOS is an extremely strong rule. Plus the shockcannon got quite an upgrade.
devourer gants are just stupid, although viable on a Gorgon army (because everything gets poison on a Gorgon army).
Genestealers are a mess, and I'm not even sure if in a completely bad way. On one hand they are overcosted and lost advance and charge. On the other infiltrate is such a strong rule, can be reinforced and are Core (unlike Purestrains). May still have some uses just because of how strong infiltrate is.
JNAProductions wrote: Am I seeing things, or does the Screamer-Killer in the leaks have 10 Attacks?
I mean, sure, only S6, but AP-3 D3 and 10 Attacks!
Give them some Adrenal Glands : 11 Attacks (on the charge) at S7 AP-3 D3 flat with an 11"M characteristic.
Also, go Behemoth and now you are S8 when you charge.
And there's still a 1 CP stratagem to give one Monster full wound reroll.
A Behemoth Screamer Killer with adrenal glands is only 125 points for a Monster with 9 wounds, 2+ armor save, 11 friggin Attacks when you charge at S8 AP -3 and damage 3 with a 3+ WS while being incredibly speedy. It is utterly insane.
I'm really getting the feeling that the Octarius book should have been out a lot earlier and that it will die with this codex. There's going to be a lot of pissed people...
From a quick overview, I expect Tyranid competitive lists to still be different flavors of Nidzilla, the thing is that we do not really need CS so much anymore. full swarm lists likely dead, but having a few swarm units may still be worth it because of all the layers of buffs we can put on them.
I know it's easy to overlook, but the Biovore is actually not bad this edition. It's an No Line of Sight Mortal wound thrower. Unless it gets FAQed it can, in addition to shooting mortal wounds on the same turn, lay out D3 spore mines per Biovore.
Sure, that's not super flashy, but it's not bad either.
cuda1179 wrote: I know it's easy to overlook, but the Biovore is actually not bad this edition. It's an No Line of Sight Mortal wound thrower. Unless it gets FAQed it can, in addition to shooting mortal wounds on the same turn, lay out D3 spore mines per Biovore.
Sure, that's not super flashy, but it's not bad either.
It's D3 shots, needing 4+ to hit right? 45 points?
I mean...1 mortal wound on average for 45 points feels dumpster tier to me. Would would this even be doing?
If you can do the action as well, it's less awful, but still not amazing.
cuda1179 wrote: I know it's easy to overlook, but the Biovore is actually not bad this edition. It's an No Line of Sight Mortal wound thrower. Unless it gets FAQed it can, in addition to shooting mortal wounds on the same turn, lay out D3 spore mines per Biovore.
Sure, that's not super flashy, but it's not bad either.
It's D3 shots, needing 4+ to hit right? 45 points?
I mean...1 mortal wound on average for 45 points feels dumpster tier to me. Would would this even be doing?
If you can do the action as well, it's less awful, but still not amazing.
Okay, bit of a brain fart on my part. I was thinking it was just D3 mortal wounds on any target. I forgot about needing to hit, which makes this much worse. I was thinking a unit of 3 laying down 6 mortal wounds per turn on a target while also putting down a unit of 6 spore mines would be kinda neat.
Tyran wrote: From a quick overview, I expect Tyranid competitive lists to still be different flavors of Nidzilla, the thing is that we do not really need CS so much anymore. full swarm lists likely dead, but having a few swarm units may still be worth it because of all the layers of buffs we can put on them.
I think swarms can work because many people will expect Nidzilla nowadays, and since this is also the edition of MSUs, most lists I've seen aren't actually tailored to deal with tons of buffed gaunts.
I feel like gaunt swarms will be pretty effective still, especially in Gorgon and when Swarming Masses is fixed to actually work correctly. 90 attacks hitting and wounding on 4's, with mortals on 6's, is nothing to sneeze at.
cuda1179 wrote: I know it's easy to overlook, but the Biovore is actually not bad this edition. It's an No Line of Sight Mortal wound thrower. Unless it gets FAQed it can, in addition to shooting mortal wounds on the same turn, lay out D3 spore mines per Biovore.
Sure, that's not super flashy, but it's not bad either.
It's D3 shots, needing 4+ to hit right? 45 points?
I mean...1 mortal wound on average for 45 points feels dumpster tier to me. Would would this even be doing?
If you can do the action as well, it's less awful, but still not amazing.
I used Biovores with some success in 8th to corral the enemy. Your opponent doesn't get a chance to shoot the spore mines until after their movement phase.
Now they each fire D3 shots instead of just one, and instead of having to rely on missing a target you can choose to just place them down. They can fill gaps to deny deep strike, go behind a unit to prevent it from retreating before you charge, or wall off an incoming unit.
Just three spore mines arranged in a line 3" apart create a 11" wide impassible wall that you can place exactly one inch in front of the enemy. Throw that down on a chokepoint T1 and you can completely screw over your opponent's ability to get to the objectives.
Although our best spore mine delivery is the harpy. Do 0.5 mortal wounds for each enemy model in the target unit, up to an average of 5 and a maximum of 10 (for a unit with 10 models).
Hey super odd question - I have about 12 Tyranid Warriors on 40mm bases
My hive guard and tyrant guard are on 50mm
Are my Warriors legal? or do they need to get upgraded
--- thanks
to add what catbarf is saying.... yeah my primary use for biovores is just yeeting annoying spore mines near the enemy. For their investment they do a lot of "awkward movement/opponent annoyed/must deal with this unit"
Stevefamine wrote: Hey super odd question - I have about 12 Tyranid Warriors on 40mm bases
My hive guard and tyrant guard are on 50mm
Are my Warriors legal? or do they need to get upgraded
--- thanks
to add what catbarf is saying.... yeah my primary use for biovores is just yeeting annoying spore mines near the enemy. For their investment they do a lot of "awkward movement/opponent annoyed/must deal with this unit"
Warriors are still on 40mm bases, although the Start Collecting had them on 50's, so if you want to use the larger ones you can get away with it.
cuda1179 wrote: I know it's easy to overlook, but the Biovore is actually not bad this edition. It's an No Line of Sight Mortal wound thrower. Unless it gets FAQed it can, in addition to shooting mortal wounds on the same turn, lay out D3 spore mines per Biovore.
Sure, that's not super flashy, but it's not bad either.
It's D3 shots, needing 4+ to hit right? 45 points?
I mean...1 mortal wound on average for 45 points feels dumpster tier to me. Would would this even be doing?
If you can do the action as well, it's less awful, but still not amazing.
I used Biovores with some success in 8th to corral the enemy. Your opponent doesn't get a chance to shoot the spore mines until after their movement phase.
Now they each fire D3 shots instead of just one, and instead of having to rely on missing a target you can choose to just place them down. They can fill gaps to deny deep strike, go behind a unit to prevent it from retreating before you charge, or wall off an incoming unit.
Just three spore mines arranged in a line 3" apart create a 11" wide impassible wall that you can place exactly one inch in front of the enemy. Throw that down on a chokepoint T1 and you can completely screw over your opponent's ability to get to the objectives.
Oh, and I guess it can do mortal wounds too.
Mines no longer block like they used to. They get ignored for all that stuff.
I need to buy a Tyrant Guard unit. 2 Hive Tyrants, each with a different relic cannon and the Tyrant Guard nearby hidden behind obscuring, for 3 S12 Ap-5 D5 and D3+3 S10 Ap-3 D3 that hits on 2+s and is untargeteable.
May not be the most competitive, but may be the most trollish.
EDIT: Also will get FAQed to dead, but by RAW there is nothing stopping a HT from having 2 cannons of the same type.
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, bit of a brain fart on my part. I was thinking it was just D3 mortal wounds on any target. I forgot about needing to hit, which makes this much worse. I was thinking a unit of 3 laying down 6 mortal wounds per turn on a target while also putting down a unit of 6 spore mines would be kinda neat.
That would be obscene, honestly, considering you can take 9 for under 500 points. I think the only thing keeping them from auto-take is the synapse requirement, which is a good thing. Otherwise you'd obliterate the opponent's backfield pretty quickly.
Tyran wrote: I need to buy a Tyrant Guard unit. 2 Hive Tyrants, each with a different relic cannon and the Tyrant Guard nearby hidden behind obscuring, for 3 S12 Ap-5 D5 and D3+3 S10 Ap-3 D3 that hits on 2+s and is untargeteable.
May not be the most competitive, but may be the most trollish.
EDIT: Also will get FAQed to dead, but by RAW there is nothing stopping a HT from having 2 cannons of the same type.
I don't think that is unintended. Each weapon 'set' can be exchanged and they specifically call out you can't take both types, so it stands to reason someone realised you can take a weapon from both options.
Why are they ok with 2 HVC but not 1 Strangle + 1 Venom? I don't know.
Well 27 Biovores would do 27 MW round on average at 48 inch. If you take a prime they get exploding 6 for one turn as well.
This should do some real damage.
Not sure if it would be better to place 54 spore mines a turn to just block the whole board...
Automatically Appended Next Post: But i also like the idea of running 9 screamer killers with M14 for a turn using hydra and a tervigon imperative. They would do 99 attacks S7 each turn.
Astmeister wrote: Well 27 Biovores would do 27 MW round on average at 48 inch. If you take a prime they get exploding 6 for one turn as well.
This should do some real damage.
Not sure if it would be better to place 54 spore mines a turn to just block the whole board...
Automatically Appended Next Post: But i also like the idea of running 9 screamer killers with M14 for a turn using hydra and a tervigon imperative. They would do 99 attacks S7 each turn.
Astmeister wrote: Well 27 Biovores would do 27 MW round on average at 48 inch. If you take a prime they get exploding 6 for one turn as well.
This should do some real damage.
Not sure if it would be better to place 54 spore mines a turn to just block the whole board...
Automatically Appended Next Post: But i also like the idea of running 9 screamer killers with M14 for a turn using hydra and a tervigon imperative. They would do 99 attacks S7 each turn.
Don't worry, Mani from Glasshammer will inevitably try it at a major event. :-p
So, the Red Terror got axed and the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Okay. Everything about this "leak" is so questionable that I honestly can't believe any of it. I think this is the finest attempt at trolling ever attempted by a Tyranid fanboy.
Not sure if it would be better to place 54 spore mines a turn to just block the whole board...
FWIW spore mines no longer block enemy movement. They can move through them, but the mines still explode if they end up within 3"
Not just end up within 3", it will also explode if they come within 3" during the move. It just explodes at the end. So enemy unit can choose to go through the mines, but they'll have to weather the mortal wounds.
McGibs wrote: Has it been spelled out somewhere when the adaptive part is chosen? is it during list building, or at the start of the game?
Start of the game, after you know who goes first.
Was about to say that's ridiculously powerful and a little unbelievable, but then thought about it and realized it has to work like that or it... doesn't work.
Can't adapt to the enemy until after you know who they are.
McGibs wrote: Has it been spelled out somewhere when the adaptive part is chosen? is it during list building, or at the start of the game?
Start of the game, after you know who goes first.
Was about to say that's ridiculously powerful and a little unbelievable, but then thought about it and realized it has to work like that or it... doesn't work.
Can't adapt to the enemy until after you know who they are.
Yeah, not only being able to pick after deployment, but after knowing who goes first is a huge boon to the ability. It really opens up the rule and makes it incredibly strong.
Not sure if it would be better to place 54 spore mines a turn to just block the whole board...
FWIW spore mines no longer block enemy movement. They can move through them, but the mines still explode if they end up within 3"
Do we have a datasheet for those yet? They don't seem to be in the leaked codex.
Yeah we do. There were 6 or so pages (I think it was spore mines, sporocysts, tyrannocytes, standard trygons, the detachment building section, and the first half of the adaptive physiology rules) which didn't appear until a few hours after the initial big leak. So didn't get included in the initial compilation documents people made. But they're out there.
Laughing Man wrote: Do we have a datasheet for those yet? They don't seem to be in the leaked codex.
We do.
Floating Death: Each time a model in this unit ends a move within 3" of any enemy units, or an enemy unit ends a move during which any of its models moved within 3" of a model from this unit, that model can explode. That model is destroyed. Select one of those enemy units and roll one D6: on a 2-4, the selected enemy unit suffers 1 mortal wound; on a 5+, the selected enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds.
[EDIT]: Oh hey, we have the Trygon sheet now. Cool.
Daedalus81 wrote: Mines no longer block like they used to. They get ignored for all that stuff.
Aw, crap. You're right.
Well, at least the mines detonate if the enemy moves within 3"- and since they don't need to roll to hit, that could mean a lot more damage than just shooting normally with the Biovores.
Just wanted to go on record to state that I think this "leak" is fake. I hope it's real, but it looks fake. Especially the "flavor text" on the rules pages and on the strats. Or else it's bad writing even by GW's standards
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: So, the Red Terror got axed and the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Okay. Everything about this "leak" is so questionable that I honestly can't believe any of it. I think this is the finest attempt at trolling ever attempted by a Tyranid fanboy.
Nice try GW, but we're not going to fall for your attempt to throw us off the legitimacy of this. Maybe try using an account with a longer post history next time.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: So, the Red Terror got axed and the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Okay. Everything about this "leak" is so questionable that I honestly can't believe any of it. I think this is the finest attempt at trolling ever attempted by a Tyranid fanboy.
Nice try GW, but we're not going to fall for your attempt to throw us off the legitimacy of this. Maybe try using an account with a longer post history next time.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: So, the Red Terror got axed and the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Okay. Everything about this "leak" is so questionable that I honestly can't believe any of it. I think this is the finest attempt at trolling ever attempted by a Tyranid fanboy.
Nice try GW, but we're not going to fall for your attempt to throw us off the legitimacy of this. Maybe try using an account with a longer post history next time.
Curses, I've been foiled.
Darn it now he knows we know!!
Now how are we going to catch and present him to the Inquisition to get the next 12 months of releases out of him? Or corrupt him our cause to be a spy, mole and instigator of customer-driven change in GW?!
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: So, the Red Terror got axed and the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Okay. Everything about this "leak" is so questionable that I honestly can't believe any of it. I think this is the finest attempt at trolling ever attempted by a Tyranid fanboy.
Nice try GW, but we're not going to fall for your attempt to throw us off the legitimacy of this. Maybe try using an account with a longer post history next time.
Curses, I've been foiled.
Darn it now he knows we know!!
Now how are we going to catch and present him to the Inquisition to get the next 12 months of releases out of him? Or corrupt him our cause to be a spy, mole and instigator of customer-driven change in GW?!
Regardless of how much you torture me, I shall never reveal my secrets!
Really, though... can anyone explain why the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Or is this going to be a first-day FAQ because the proof-readers at GW are actually feral chimps?
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: So, the Red Terror got axed and the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Okay. Everything about this "leak" is so questionable that I honestly can't believe any of it. I think this is the finest attempt at trolling ever attempted by a Tyranid fanboy.
Nice try GW, but we're not going to fall for your attempt to throw us off the legitimacy of this. Maybe try using an account with a longer post history next time.
Curses, I've been foiled.
Darn it now he knows we know!!
Now how are we going to catch and present him to the Inquisition to get the next 12 months of releases out of him? Or corrupt him our cause to be a spy, mole and instigator of customer-driven change in GW?!
Regardless of how much you torture me, I shall never reveal my secrets!
Really, though... can anyone explain why the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Or is this going to be a first-day FAQ because the proof-readers at GW are actually feral chimps?
I don't think it will be. It's got a synaptic imperative as well, which no other unique characters have. Feels like this was just a nice way to throw a generic synapse character unit that didn't need to be unique.
Works for me, means I can outfit it with WLTs and Relics.
Tyran wrote: It is a playtesting codex, the real one will likely look better (and hopefully have the blatant errors fixed)
Doubtful. From one playtester on Twitter:
Playtest stuff is indeed all watermarked and we don’t get given full complete codex until after release. And the watermark has my name all over it so I ain’t ever doing that gak. Way too obvious. I have no idea where this comes from. You’d presume between printers and YouTube
So... came across the Maleceptor on a reddit thread. Uh, wow. Its still 170 points, but its massive scything talons are useful now (they can sweep and double its 3 attacks (with Ap3 and 2D) and or strike for a vastly improved profile (+3S, AP4 and D2d3).
But, its abilities are very different. Psychic overload deals mortal wounds whenever you roll a 7+ with a psychic power, depending on the models wounds remaining (3 if 8+/2 if 5-7/1 if 1-4 W), to the closest enemy unit with 12."
[Wounds remaining is important, because there is an adaptation that changes which bracket a monster is in (counting wounds as double their current value), that doesn't affect this. Yes, its more or less the same thing, but isn't technically the same thing]
Alternately, it can take a psychic action (in your psychic phase), and until your next psychic phase, all ranged attacks at friendly hive fleet units within a 6" aura are at -1 S.
2 manifests, 2 powers known and smite.
Ugh: tyrant guard don't have bonesword and lashwhip. They have bonecleaver and lashwhip, which... are worse. Because reasons. Also, they can't replace their rending claws, just their scytals. Which are standard scytals, not any of the variant scytals. You know, to be consistent.
Voss wrote: Ugh: tyrant guard don't have bonesword and lashwhip. They have bonecleaver and lashwhip, which... are worse. Because reasons. Also, they can't replace their rending claws, just their scytals. Which are standard scytals, not any of the variant scytals. You know, to be consistent.
The Rending Claws are the middle set of legs, and have never been swappable IIRC.
The Bonecleaver is another Boneheaded bit of unnecessary bloat.
Voss wrote: Ugh: tyrant guard don't have bonesword and lashwhip. They have bonecleaver and lashwhip, which... are worse. Because reasons. Also, they can't replace their rending claws, just their scytals. Which are standard scytals, not any of the variant scytals. You know, to be consistent.
The Rending Claws are the middle set of legs, and have never been swappable IIRC.
Definitely not on the plastic kit, as they're basically walking arms. I'm not so sure about the old metal deathballs, but I can't be asked to dig those up. I remember trying to replace... something with those terrible metal lashwhips from some other kit.
The Bonecleaver is another Boneheaded bit of unnecessary bloat.
Indeed.
-----
Why can lictors arm wrestle carnifexes now, and win? Actually, what the feth is this unit now?
+1 move, S, T, W and double attacks, Ap3, 5++, -1 to hit (always), can't be targeted if 12"+ away and in cover, always fight first (if it wants?) and hidden hunter can be 6" away from enemies if its in your deployment zone and rerolls charges when it comes out of hiding. What?
Anyone who claims GW makes better rules for new units, from now on I'm just going to point at the lictors and pyrovores and laugh.
Anyone else notice that a bunch of entries in the back don't have points cost attributed to pieces of equipment?
Tyranid Prime has no cost for a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler, for example. Tyranid Warriors have no cost for most of their weapons, for another example.
Tyrant Guard pay 10 points for a Crushing Claw. Are we supposed to infer that a pair of Crushing Claws is a 20 point option, then? Because in no reality ever is that even remotely worth it. A Carnifex pays 5 points for a Carnifex Crushing Claw, so... 10 ponits for the pair? A Tervigon pays nothing for Massive Crushing Claws? What?
I'm just assuming the missing costs are actually baked into the unit entry and you're supposed to just have to the freedom to pick-n'-choose, but it seems odd, overall.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: Anyone else notice that a bunch of entries in the back don't have points cost attributed to pieces of equipment?
Tyranid Prime has no cost for a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler, for example. Tyranid Warriors have no cost for most of their weapons, for another example.
Tyrant Guard pay 10 points for a Crushing Claw. Are we supposed to infer that a pair of Crushing Claws is a 20 point option, then? Because in no reality ever is that even remotely worth it. A Carnifex pays 5 points for a Carnifex Crushing Claw, so... 10 ponits for the pair? A Tervigon pays nothing for Massive Crushing Claws? What?
I'm just assuming the missing costs are actually baked into the unit entry and you're supposed to just have to the freedom to pick-n'-choose, but it seems odd, overall.
Welcome to 9th edition. Its been the new normal since the space marine codex. A lot of stuff is baked into the base cost of the unit, especially if there aren't options (things like the Tervigon's claws particularly).
Warriors are a bit odder, but GW's attitude is that the different weapon profiles have their own strengths, weaknesses and roles, even when some are distinctly better. Its also easier on them.
Tyrant guard crushing claw(s) seems like a mistake, just copying the format of other weapons. On the other hand, you can push that to S10 without issue (5+3+1(adrenal)+1(hive fleet Behemoth charge)), but for only 6 damage between the 3 attacks, that isn't that great (without a lot more buffs, like adrenal surge and a dead tyrant and whatever else you can find).
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: Anyone else notice that a bunch of entries in the back don't have points cost attributed to pieces of equipment?
Tyranid Prime has no cost for a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler, for example. Tyranid Warriors have no cost for most of their weapons, for another example.
Tyrant Guard pay 10 points for a Crushing Claw. Are we supposed to infer that a pair of Crushing Claws is a 20 point option, then? Because in no reality ever is that even remotely worth it. A Carnifex pays 5 points for a Carnifex Crushing Claw, so... 10 ponits for the pair? A Tervigon pays nothing for Massive Crushing Claws? What?
I'm just assuming the missing costs are actually baked into the unit entry and you're supposed to just have to the freedom to pick-n'-choose, but it seems odd, overall.
yeah, that appears to be the design they've gone with, is most options are free and baked into the base unit cost.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: So, the Red Terror got axed and the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Okay. Everything about this "leak" is so questionable that I honestly can't believe any of it. I think this is the finest attempt at trolling ever attempted by a Tyranid fanboy.
Nice try GW, but we're not going to fall for your attempt to throw us off the legitimacy of this. Maybe try using an account with a longer post history next time.
Curses, I've been foiled.
Darn it now he knows we know!!
Now how are we going to catch and present him to the Inquisition to get the next 12 months of releases out of him? Or corrupt him our cause to be a spy, mole and instigator of customer-driven change in GW?!
Regardless of how much you torture me, I shall never reveal my secrets!
Really, though... can anyone explain why the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Or is this going to be a first-day FAQ because the proof-readers at GW are actually feral chimps?
Well there's been errata way before even release before so...
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: Anyone else notice that a bunch of entries in the back don't have points cost attributed to pieces of equipment?
Tyranid Prime has no cost for a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler, for example. Tyranid Warriors have no cost for most of their weapons, for another example.
Tyrant Guard pay 10 points for a Crushing Claw. Are we supposed to infer that a pair of Crushing Claws is a 20 point option, then? Because in no reality ever is that even remotely worth it. A Carnifex pays 5 points for a Carnifex Crushing Claw, so... 10 ponits for the pair? A Tervigon pays nothing for Massive Crushing Claws? What?
I'm just assuming the missing costs are actually baked into the unit entry and you're supposed to just have to the freedom to pick-n'-choose, but it seems odd, overall.
yeah, that appears to be the design they've gone with, is most options are free and baked into the base unit cost.
Great for Warriors.
Except for wargear (especially adrenals). The per unit cost is weird and really only affects warriors, tyrant guard, and randomly rippers for their terrible guns.
It makes no sense for S8 bonesword attacks to be 5/pts per model in small units but 1.667 pts per model in large units. Even less sense for 7 S6 attacks per model with double scytal.
Voss wrote: I'm not so sure about the old metal deathballs, but I can't be asked to dig those up. I remember trying to replace... something with those terrible metal lashwhips from some other kit.
The metal ones are solid AF. I love those things. One of the few things I did not care about upgrading to plastic when the new ones came out (unlike, say, Raveners!). But again, even on that kit, those big chonky middle set of arms were the rending claws. They got access to Lash Whips or Boneswords in the 5th (I think it's 5th?) Edition Codex, but they replaced the ScyTals. They always kept the Rending Claws.
Voss wrote: Why can lictors arm wrestle carnifexes now, and win? Actually, what the feth is this unit now?
Something more akin to the walking nightmare he was back in 2nd Ed. That's a good thing.
Can't say I'm too enthused by the Carnifex's Strength though. I mean, sure, if it can't be T8 because the T8 monsters are the really big ones*, then T7 will do. But S6? Come on!
*Which is more of a problem with Toughness in general, and how GW is afraid to go above T8, and not a specific Tyranid issue.
Voss wrote: Anyone who claims GW makes better rules for new units, from now on I'm just going to point at the lictors and pyrovores and laugh.
Maybe. But for all the stat shuffling in this book (and there's a lot- venomthropes are suddenly fast and beefy, but still somehow pillowfisted with their now 5 attacks), the real exciting stuff is mostly the same mainstays. At least from my perspective (though I'll admit to not chasing the big meta things, and taking a break from the army for a few editions. The only reason I have more plastic ball 'fexes than rhino fexes is because GW has done deals on them so many times)
But I would have bought more than a few lictors and pyrovores (and maybe a few biovores) if they had gotten new plastic kits with this release.
Does the Reaper of Obliterax ignore all the "-1 damage" durability rules? Have there been rules in other codexes that ignore those?
I don't play 9th or understand its workings, but I've been following the discussions about the ever-escalating rules oneupmanship. Lately people have been noting how -1 damage has been getting sprinkled around, so it would funny if there's now a rule to ignore those rules.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: So, the Red Terror got axed and the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Okay. Everything about this "leak" is so questionable that I honestly can't believe any of it. I think this is the finest attempt at trolling ever attempted by a Tyranid fanboy.
Nice try GW, but we're not going to fall for your attempt to throw us off the legitimacy of this. Maybe try using an account with a longer post history next time.
Curses, I've been foiled.
Darn it now he knows we know!!
Now how are we going to catch and present him to the Inquisition to get the next 12 months of releases out of him? Or corrupt him our cause to be a spy, mole and instigator of customer-driven change in GW?!
Regardless of how much you torture me, I shall never reveal my secrets!
Really, though... can anyone explain why the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Or is this going to be a first-day FAQ because the proof-readers at GW are actually feral chimps?
I don't think it will be. It's got a synaptic imperative as well, which no other unique characters have. Feels like this was just a nice way to throw a generic synapse character unit that didn't need to be unique.
Works for me, means I can outfit it with WLTs and Relics.
I'm not trying to start a fight with you or anything, but I'm extremely skeptical of this. Synaptic Imperative... point taken, but the only other unique character that could have a Synaptic Imperative would be the Swarmlord. Deathleaper and Old One Eye aren't Synapse so they couldn't be candidates. I honestly think they just forgot about the Swarmlord's Synaptic Imperatives and the Parasite of Mortrex's designated Warlord Trait. Or I'm dead wrong. Or this leak is clever fake news. The Parasite of Mortrex was a special character in 5th edition when it was introduced. Not that the Warhammer Community articles are cannon for anything, but even they say, "...the legendary Parasite of Mortrex..." and "...soon be able to add a Parasite of Mortrex to your..." I point this out because "legendary" and "a" are the words they used which, in my mind, dictate that it is a singular, unique entity.
Have any special character from past editions been retconned into not being special character in the current edition? I'd love to be able to stick Maw Claws of Thyrax on it and give it Heightened Senses to make sure it gets full hit and wound re-rolls and that the Barbed Ovipositor has the highest chance of success, but I also don't want to feel like I got kicked in the junk when I pay $45 for it and then they FAQ it immediately.
Can't say I'm too enthused by the Carnifex's Strength though. I mean, sure, if it can't be T8 because the T8 monsters are the really big ones*, then T7 will do. But S6? Come on!
Memories of days when Carnie had S9 or 10 with an upgrade. Maybe in 10th?
No flame, just asking to see i'f i'm reading this right or if i'm missing something. In a crusher stampede leviathan army the tyranid warriors can be a T5 3W 5++ permatranshuman obsec troop for 25 points/model?
Have any special character from past editions been retconned into not being special character in the current edition?
The nearest example for Nids is the Neurothrope being spiritual successor to the Doom of Malantai. It even has special rules named the same as the old unit entry.
One of the upsides of Tyranid fluff is that special characters aren't really that special; if they want to the hive fleets can just spawn as many as they like.
Can't say I'm too enthused by the Carnifex's Strength though. I mean, sure, if it can't be T8 because the T8 monsters are the really big ones*, then T7 will do. But S6? Come on!
Memories of days when Carnie had S9 or 10 with an upgrade. Maybe in 10th?
I find it odd how people get hung up on individual unit stats like this. It's like trying to claim that out a T9 Gorgon Hive Tyrant is harder to kill than a Reaver titan, while ignoring the other stats & rules that factor into things.
Why does it matter what their basic strength is, when there are so many rules and upgrades to buff their overall output to crazy levels? Some builds put out over 30 potential damage from a single fight phase, which is substantially higher than the old unit.
A single charge can drop a crazy number of mortal wounds - potentially up to 12 if Crusher Stampede remains as-is.
Crushing Claw Carnifexes are S10. Behemoth Carnifexes can have S8 scything talons, alongside +1 to wound. There's loads of options for auto-wound or exploding hits in the codex.
I'd argue if Carnifexes were S9 or even S10 basic, you'd need a bunch of nerfs to either points or other parts of the codex to help keep them sane.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ryushi wrote: No flame, just asking to see i'f i'm reading this right or if i'm missing something. In a crusher stampede leviathan army the tyranid warriors can be a T5 3W 5++ permatranshuman obsec troop for 25 points/model?
Mostly yes, but I'm not sure where the 5++ is coming from there.
The invuln save from Crusher Stampede can't be used alongside the Levi transhuman rule. There is a way to give an armywide 4++ to Synapse models, but only once per game.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: So, the Red Terror got axed and the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Okay. Everything about this "leak" is so questionable that I honestly can't believe any of it. I think this is the finest attempt at trolling ever attempted by a Tyranid fanboy.
Nice try GW, but we're not going to fall for your attempt to throw us off the legitimacy of this. Maybe try using an account with a longer post history next time.
Curses, I've been foiled.
Darn it now he knows we know!!
Now how are we going to catch and present him to the Inquisition to get the next 12 months of releases out of him? Or corrupt him our cause to be a spy, mole and instigator of customer-driven change in GW?!
Regardless of how much you torture me, I shall never reveal my secrets!
Really, though... can anyone explain why the Parasite of Mortrex is not a unique character..? Or is this going to be a first-day FAQ because the proof-readers at GW are actually feral chimps?
I don't think it will be. It's got a synaptic imperative as well, which no other unique characters have. Feels like this was just a nice way to throw a generic synapse character unit that didn't need to be unique.
Works for me, means I can outfit it with WLTs and Relics.
The Parasite of Mortrex was a special character in 5th edition when it was introduced. Not that the Warhammer Community articles are cannon for anything, but even they say, "...the legendary Parasite of Mortrex..." and "...soon be able to add a Parasite of Mortrex to your..." I point this out because "legendary" and "a" are the words they used which, in my mind, dictate that it is a singular, unique entity.
Alternatively, "Legendary" doesn't specifically imply there's only 1 in existence, just that it's the stuff of legends. There are many legends about dragons, afterall. Furthermore, if there was only a single Parasite in existance, you'd think they'd refer to it as "the Parasite of Mortrex" not "a Parasite of Mortrex" like they do with the Swarmlord, even if technically speaking there's more than 1 Swarmlord in existance because GW wants to justify a faction like the Tyranids having unique leaders.
It does feel a bit odd, and I am of the opinion that no one should rush out to buy more than one in case GW does FAQ it, but there's plenty of evidence that GW possibly intended for it to now be generic.
Also while not a character, there's been Tau relics and unique wargear that have been made into normal wargear (such as the Iridium Battlesuit, used to be a character-only relic that gave a 2+ sv, now you can have them in every Crisis squad, multiples per army).
Mostly yes, but I'm not sure where the 5++ is coming from there.
The invuln save from Crusher Stampede can't be used alongside the Levi transhuman rule. There is a way to give an armywide 4++ to Synapse models, but only once per game.
Ok it was from the crusher stampede, so i was reading this wrong.
Ryushi wrote: No flame, just asking to see i'f i'm reading this right or if i'm missing something. In a crusher stampede leviathan army the tyranid warriors can be a T5 3W 5++ permatranshuman obsec troop for 25 points/model?
A Crusher Stampede can't benefit from any Hive Fleet Adaptation, so no benefiting from Leviathan's trans-nid.
Same. Theres an adaptive physiology trait in the codex that gives monsters ObSec, the Zoanthropes synaptic link gives monsters a 4++ (granted for 1 turn vs the entire game), and a few other things that somewhat overlap with the benefits that Crusher Stampede offers. I have a hard time seeing Crusher Stampede remaining valid when the codex essentially has a number of those features built into it.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: Anyone else notice that a bunch of entries in the back don't have points cost attributed to pieces of equipment?
Tyranid Prime has no cost for a Venom Cannon or Barbed Strangler, for example. Tyranid Warriors have no cost for most of their weapons, for another example.
Tyrant Guard pay 10 points for a Crushing Claw. Are we supposed to infer that a pair of Crushing Claws is a 20 point option, then? Because in no reality ever is that even remotely worth it. A Carnifex pays 5 points for a Carnifex Crushing Claw, so... 10 ponits for the pair? A Tervigon pays nothing for Massive Crushing Claws? What?
I'm just assuming the missing costs are actually baked into the unit entry and you're supposed to just have to the freedom to pick-n'-choose, but it seems odd, overall.
yeah, that appears to be the design they've gone with, is most options are free and baked into the base unit cost.
Great for Warriors.
Except for wargear (especially adrenals). The per unit cost is weird and really only affects warriors, tyrant guard, and randomly rippers for their terrible guns.
It makes no sense for S8 bonesword attacks to be 5/pts per model in small units but 1.667 pts per model in large units. Even less sense for 7 S6 attacks per model with double scytal.
It makes plenty of sense from a game design perspective. You're incentivizing larger units to seek greater points efficiency rather than catering to small unit spam.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Re the "its fake" debate, its worth mentioning that the formatting of the stat blocks/datasheets matches the formatting in the parasite preview article (i.e. colorscheme, background art, etc.).
Doesn't necessarily mean much as they could have ripped that off the article and duped it, but its a pretty high quality fake if it is.
Why can lictors arm wrestle carnifexes now, and win? Actually, what the feth is this unit now?
+1 move, S, T, W and double attacks, Ap3, 5++, -1 to hit (always), can't be targeted if 12"+ away and in cover, always fight first (if it wants?) and hidden hunter can be 6" away from enemies if its in your deployment zone and rerolls charges when it comes out of hiding. What?
Anyone who claims GW makes better rules for new units, from now on I'm just going to point at the lictors and pyrovores and laugh.
I don't see Lictors as being any good at all. 70 points for 4-6 damage in melee on average against T4-6 3+ save models with no invulns. Drops to 4 or worse if they have at least a 5++. No mortal wound mechanic for what is meant to be an assassin model. Single model infantry units are far less valuable in the current objective game, and they can't even do primary grabbing well because their deep strike got reamed out.
Now if you do manage to get them on an objective then the untargetable to shooting rule is really nice. Not impossible to kill them if you can get into 12" though, which means you are probably leaving them on the closest objective to your deployment zone all game.
Ordana wrote: I would also expect Crusher Stampede to be simply invalidated when the codex comes out.
I actually was thinking about this.
Considering ALL the Crusade books just...seemed to go to Last Chance, I'm wondering if the future balance update will see Armies of Renown (which includes the Crusher Stampede) go the way of Specialist Detachments - poof. Opponent's permission only.
It's also starting to seem...very redundant. The normal Codex has Adaptations to allow monsters to score, Carnifexes have inherent -Damage, Transnid can be army wide....
Still, Leviathan supplement....still likely to be valid? Who knows. We're gonna need a FAQ. And if it is, looks like Synaptic Hive Blades is going to Primes only (as Monstrous Boneswords is no longer a thing unless we kick off half as much as the Eldar players do and get them to give all our existing options back which have been in existence since the 3rd ed Codex!! Seriously flabbergasted by the no Twin-Talon option for Tyrants...)
That and we're also going through/just pass the mid-edition shift where all the established paradigms of the edition to date get turned on their head as they begin working towards compatibility with early drafts for the next edition. I have no doubt that the next edition of the game will see a shift towards larger squads again.
9th has been mostly dominated by MSU spam as a result of a few factors (e.g. - blast weapons automatically maxing out the number of attacks if you have more than 5 models in a unit, combat coherency making it harder for larger units to maximize their capability in melee, etc.) and death stars have generally been less of a factor this edition due to balance changes made to unit/faction rules as well as caps on stacking buffs and penalties, etc. Now we are seeing GW taking actions to incentivize larger units (gaunts/gants getting a rule which expands their combat coherency, upgrades priced for entire units rather than per model in the unit, etc.) in an effort to counteract or counterbalance some of those factors that otherwise encourage MSU builds. Blast weapons, I think, are a key reason for this - the blast rule was basically added because blast weapons in 8th weren't very good at filling their intended role of crowd control, so they added this rule to make them more effective against their intended targets and give players more of a reason to field them, but instead that backfired by instead giving opposing players a reason to field smaller units. That no doubt throws off balance and intended playstyles a good amount relative to where they want things to be and renders a number of options across the game essentially pointless/underutilized as a result. By giving incentive to players to field larger units despite the risks associated with doing so vis-a-vis blast weapons, they could break MSU style builds being the norm and give new life and purpose to those blast weapons again and open up more valid playstyles, which in turn might correct some of the balance issues that certain factions suffer from.
This elevation to 2+ saves everywhere doesn't sit will with me, not because of balance or anything important, but just because it doens't feel "right" that something made of meat, even Magic Space Meat, should be tougher than a main battle tank.
Madjob wrote: I don't see Lictors as being any good at all. 70 points for 4-6 damage in melee on average against T4-6 3+ save models with no invulns. Drops to 4 or worse if they have at least a 5++. No mortal wound mechanic for what is meant to be an assassin model. Single model infantry units are far less valuable in the current objective game, and they can't even do primary grabbing well because their deep strike got reamed out.
Now if you do manage to get them on an objective then the untargetable to shooting rule is really nice. Not impossible to kill them if you can get into 12" though, which means you are probably leaving them on the closest objective to your deployment zone all game.
Really should have got infiltrate rather than deepstrike.
Alcibiades wrote: This elevation to 2+ saves everywhere doesn't sit will with me, not because of balance or anything important, but just because it doens't feel "right" that something made of meat, even Magic Space Meat, should be tougher than a main battle tank.
Tyranid Hive Ships suck up every usable material on a world and use it to synthesize their invasion forces for optimal prowess and adaptation. Why would that not lead to big bugs who are as tough/armored as anything the Imperium has to offer?
Alcibiades wrote: This elevation to 2+ saves everywhere doesn't sit will with me, not because of balance or anything important, but just because it doens't feel "right" that something made of meat, even Magic Space Meat, should be tougher than a main battle tank.
If you go down that road, really nothing about the Tyranids makes any sense at all when we look at modern Biology.
Best to Smile and Nod when it comes to trying to match something like Statlines to fluff.
Madjob wrote: I don't see Lictors as being any good at all. 70 points for 4-6 damage in melee on average against T4-6 3+ save models with no invulns. Drops to 4 or worse if they have at least a 5++. No mortal wound mechanic for what is meant to be an assassin model. Single model infantry units are far less valuable in the current objective game, and they can't even do primary grabbing well because their deep strike got reamed out.
Now if you do manage to get them on an objective then the untargetable to shooting rule is really nice. Not impossible to kill them if you can get into 12" though, which means you are probably leaving them on the closest objective to your deployment zone all game.
Really should have got infiltrate rather than deepstrike.
I feel like that could have been problematic with Lictors giving out +2 to charge then you'd have Hormagaunts with M11 + 6 doing a 3D6 D1 +2 charge turn 1.
Alcibiades wrote: This elevation to 2+ saves everywhere doesn't sit will with me, not because of balance or anything important, but just because it doens't feel "right" that something made of meat, even Magic Space Meat, should be tougher than a main battle tank.
Alcibiades wrote: This elevation to 2+ saves everywhere doesn't sit will with me, not because of balance or anything important, but just because it doens't feel "right" that something made of meat, even Magic Space Meat, should be tougher than a main battle tank.
Alcibiades wrote: This elevation to 2+ saves everywhere doesn't sit will with me, not because of balance or anything important, but just because it doens't feel "right" that something made of meat, even Magic Space Meat, should be tougher than a main battle tank.
Tyranids are so far more advanced that the idea that they could have armour of comparable strength to main battle tanks is - very easy to imagine.
Recall that the original venom cannon fluff was basically a biological railgun/coilgun hybrid. Also, MBT armour in 9e is appallingly thin.
But yeah, anything you can do with chemistry, you can do with biology but even better most of the time. Layered graphene mesh with microscopic titanium scales attached to each ring would be much easier to achieve biologically than with conventional manufacturing, for example. Add in specialised cells full of a non-Newtonian fluid for impact-stiffening and you have insane levels of protection in a sub-mm “cloth” all theoretically achievable with actual biochemistry, never mind magic space biology which has access to psychoreactive materials that literally respond to the bearer’s will.
Alcibiades wrote: This elevation to 2+ saves everywhere doesn't sit will with me, not because of balance or anything important, but just because it doens't feel "right" that something made of meat, even Magic Space Meat, should be tougher than a main battle tank.
Out of interest, do you know just how tough and strong spider silk is?
Tyranid Norm Queens could take that and make some pretty amazing creatures with that laced throughout their structures.
2+ saves on the big critters is probably necessary from a balance perspective, given how lethal this edition is and how commonplace AP has become on even standard infantry weapons
Zachectomy wrote: 2+ saves on the big critters is probably necessary from a balance perspective, given how lethal this edition is and how commonplace AP has become on even standard infantry weapons
Meh. There's enough 5AP weaponry out there that it doesn't matter. If you really want to protect a tyranid monster in this codex, you go Leviathan, slap Synapse on it with Adaptive physiology (so it's only wounded on a 4+), and use Hive Nexus (leviathan psychic power) to use the Zoanthropes warp shield imperative and give it a 4++ every turn.
Zachectomy wrote: 2+ saves on the big critters is probably necessary from a balance perspective, given how lethal this edition is and how commonplace AP has become on even standard infantry weapons
Yeah. Though it does tie into a larger issue of GW remaining within artificial boundaries. Why could something like terminators, for example, not have a 1+ save? A 1 still fails (an abstraction needed for gameplay, if unfluffy) but it would be essentially ignoring a point of AP. I would like to see things like tanks have extremely high T and saves, but relatively few wounds because once a weapon does manage to get into the inner machinery it doesn't take much damage to significantly hamper the vehicle. Monstrous creatures could then have identity on the opposite end, with decent T and saves but mainly huge wound pools.
I think part of this perspective is me coming from AoS as my main game; AoS creates all the diversity in durability needed despite wound rolls being fixed values and S/T not existing at all. As much as I like that system for AoS I like S/T for 40k because it allows for what I described above, because 40k has a big demand for different 'types' of durability whereas AoS doesn't have that vehicle/monster divide bar niche exceptions. The problem is GW has eaten the drawback of complexity to put that mechanic in the game, then broadly avoided making use of it.
Alternatively, "Legendary" doesn't specifically imply there's only 1 in existence, just that it's the stuff of legends. There are many legends about dragons, afterall. Furthermore, if there was only a single Parasite in existance, you'd think they'd refer to it as "the Parasite of Mortrex" not "a Parasite of Mortrex" like they do with the Swarmlord, even if technically speaking there's more than 1 Swarmlord in existance because GW wants to justify a faction like the Tyranids having unique leaders.
It does feel a bit odd, and I am of the opinion that no one should rush out to buy more than one in case GW does FAQ it, but there's plenty of evidence that GW possibly intended for it to now be generic.
Also while not a character, there's been Tau relics and unique wargear that have been made into normal wargear (such as the Iridium Battlesuit, used to be a character-only relic that gave a 2+ sv, now you can have them in every Crisis squad, multiples per army).
I agree with you and Sasori now. After the article today, I think I'm dead wrong about my previous assessment. I still can't shake the feeling of how weird it seems.
Zachectomy wrote: 2+ saves on the big critters is probably necessary from a balance perspective, given how lethal this edition is and how commonplace AP has become on even standard infantry weapons
Yeah. Though it does tie into a larger issue of GW remaining within artificial boundaries. Why could something like terminators, for example, not have a 1+ save? A 1 still fails (an abstraction needed for gameplay, if unfluffy) but it would be essentially ignoring a point of AP. I would like to see things like tanks have extremely high T and saves, but relatively few wounds because once a weapon does manage to get into the inner machinery it doesn't take much damage to significantly hamper the vehicle. Monstrous creatures could then have identity on the opposite end, with decent T and saves but mainly huge wound pools.
I think part of this perspective is me coming from AoS as my main game; AoS creates all the diversity in durability needed despite wound rolls being fixed values and S/T not existing at all. As much as I like that system for AoS I like S/T for 40k because it allows for what I described above, because 40k has a big demand for different 'types' of durability whereas AoS doesn't have that vehicle/monster divide bar niche exceptions. The problem is GW has eaten the drawback of complexity to put that mechanic in the game, then broadly avoided making use of it.
I like the idea of differentiating wound pool and toughness and/or save to distinguish "brittle" vs "meaty" targets and adding another dimension to durability. T9 tyrants might be the first example of something over T8 making its way onto tables
Ryushi wrote: No flame, just asking to see i'f i'm reading this right or if i'm missing something. In a crusher stampede leviathan army the tyranid warriors can be a T5 3W 5++ permatranshuman obsec troop for 25 points/model?
A Crusher Stampede can't benefit from any Hive Fleet Adaptation, so no benefiting from Leviathan's trans-nid.
On the other hand, Leviathan psykers can use Hive Nexus to just use and reuse Zoanthropes' Warp Shield imperative ability, so you can put 5++ on units. So, crusher stampede isn't necessary to go nuts.
Ryushi wrote: No flame, just asking to see i'f i'm reading this right or if i'm missing something. In a crusher stampede leviathan army the tyranid warriors can be a T5 3W 5++ permatranshuman obsec troop for 25 points/model?
A Crusher Stampede can't benefit from any Hive Fleet Adaptation, so no benefiting from Leviathan's trans-nid.
On the other hand, Leviathan psykers can use Hive Nexus to just use and reuse Zoanthropes' Warp Shield imperative ability, so you can put 5++ on units. So, crusher stampede isn't necessary to go nuts.
Hive Nexus only effects a single unit though, which is significantly less useful. It's not *bad* by any means (especially when giving a Monster a 4++), but it's not giving your entire army of Warriors that 5++.
On the other hand, transnid is arguably better than an army wide 5++, specially because it comes with either re-rolling one hit roll per phase or a trait of the Feed or Hunt tables. Plus no restrictions on units.
Alcibiades wrote: This elevation to 2+ saves everywhere doesn't sit will with me, not because of balance or anything important, but just because it doens't feel "right" that something made of meat, even Magic Space Meat, should be tougher than a main battle tank.
That's not a problem with the Tyranids though. That's a problem with how tanks - and vehicles in general - are handled across all of 40k.
Tyran wrote: On the other hand, transnid is arguably better than an army wide 5++, specially because it comes with either re-rolling one hit roll per phase or a trait of the Feed or Hunt tables. Plus no restrictions on units.
Depends on your list really.
Yeah, for warrior heavy nids, leviathan is really good, especially with the toughness upgrade. You need S5 weapons to wound them on 4+ in the first place, and everything over that is reduced. And if you really need to, you can pull out the reduced damage strat.
As someone found of medium bugs, leviathan is kind of an obvious choice.
Between s8 and their imperative, there are lots of reasons to field them. Hit on 2s, wound on 2s, good AP. Things just die.
Zachectomy wrote: 2+ saves on the big critters is probably necessary from a balance perspective, given how lethal this edition is and how commonplace AP has become on even standard infantry weapons
Meh. There's enough 5AP weaponry out there that it doesn't matter. If you really want to protect a tyranid monster in this codex, you go Leviathan, slap Synapse on it with Adaptive physiology (so it's only wounded on a 4+), and use Hive Nexus (leviathan psychic power) to use the Zoanthropes warp shield imperative and give it a 4++ every turn.
Tyran wrote: On the other hand, transnid is arguably better than an army wide 5++, specially because it comes with either re-rolling one hit roll per phase or a trait of the Feed or Hunt tables. Plus no restrictions on units.
Depends on your list really.
Yeah, for warrior heavy nids, leviathan is really good, especially with the toughness upgrade. You need S5 weapons to wound them on 4+ in the first place, and everything over that is reduced. And if you really need to, you can pull out the reduced damage strat.
As someone found of medium bugs, leviathan is kind of an obvious choice.
Between s8 and their imperative, there are lots of reasons to field them. Hit on 2s, wound on 2s, good AP. Things just die.
Ya; I'll Waffle on Behemoth and Leviathan a lot. Both have access to army-wide Heroic Intervention but I love +1S Shock Assault and the Strat/Spell Behemoth has. Yet Leviathan's durabiilty is pretty impressive.
Zachectomy wrote: 2+ saves on the big critters is probably necessary from a balance perspective, given how lethal this edition is and how commonplace AP has become on even standard infantry weapons
Meh. There's enough 5AP weaponry out there that it doesn't matter. If you really want to protect a tyranid monster in this codex, you go Leviathan, slap Synapse on it with Adaptive physiology (so it's only wounded on a 4+), and use Hive Nexus (leviathan psychic power) to use the Zoanthropes warp shield imperative and give it a 4++ every turn.
You only get each Imperative ONCE per game btw
Yep. But the Hive Nexus psychic power just turns it on for a unit. The wording could be more clear (I'm sure some will quibble) but you aren't selecting a Synaptic Imperative for the army again. You're just granting the target Imperative to a unit temporarily.
It'd be an incredibly poor power if it counted as a 'you cannot select a unit's Synaptic Imperiative if you have selected that ability earlier in the battle.'
For what it's worth, Tervigons can replenish any type of Termagant. The only time it must spawn Fleshborer-toting Termagants is if it elects to use the once-per-battle option... not that anyone in their right mind is going to use Devourers or Spinefists on Termagants.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: For what it's worth, Tervigons can replenish any type of Termagant. The only time it must spawn Fleshborer-toting Termagants is if it elects to use the once-per-battle option. Not that anyone in their right mind is going to use Devourers or Spinefists.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: For what it's worth, Tervigons can replenish any type of Termagant. The only time it must spawn Fleshborer-toting Termagants is if it elects to use the once-per-battle option... not that anyone in their right mind is going to use Devourers or Spinefists on Termagants.
Honestly frustrating for me because I love Devilgaunts and being able to heal broods of them is a great buff but then they ruined it by removing a shot from the Devourer for no reason.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: For what it's worth, Tervigons can replenish any type of Termagant. The only time it must spawn Fleshborer-toting Termagants is if it elects to use the once-per-battle option... not that anyone in their right mind is going to use Devourers or Spinefists on Termagants.
Honestly frustrating for me because I love Devilgaunts and being able to heal broods of them is a great buff but then they ruined it by removing a shot from the Devourer for no reason.
Ya' know... if you love them, keep using them. None of this is static; it's all dynamic... every edition ushers in winners and losers, but the resourcefulness of players will find a niche for everything. There are a few hive fleet adaptations, unit abilities and stratagems that can make Devilgaunts work. I think the only absolutely unacceptable part about Termagants was the increase in points per model and then another for Devourers. As-is, they should be a free exchange... even if they FAQ'd Devourers back to their old profile on Day 1, they should still be a free exchange. 7 points per model... you must be joking, Willis.
H.B.M.C. wrote: On the bright side, if there are 15 Termagants in a unit near a Tervigon then the Tervigon can't be shot at. That's nice.
And Synaptic Backlach is gone.
Not to nitpick, but the rule stipulates that the Termagant brood must also be closer to the enemy than the Tervigon in addition to being 15+ and within 1" of the Tervigon... so positioning is important here. A clever and dedicated opponent can maneuver around the Wall Of Flesh rule.
H.B.M.C. wrote: On the bright side, if there are 15 Termagants in a unit near a Tervigon then the Tervigon can't be shot at. That's nice.
And Synaptic Backlach is gone.
Not to nitpick, but the rule stipulates that the Termagant brood must also be closer to the enemy than the Tervigon in addition to being 15+ and within 1" of the Tervigon... so positioning is important here. A clever and dedicated opponent can maneuver around the Wall Of Flesh rule.
But, yes, Synaptic Backlash is gone. Huzzah.
Between that and Crossfire I welcome our new positioning based meta.
Tyran wrote: Devourers are bad, but spinefists are 2 pistol shots for free, run Gorgon and they are better than fleshborers because you no longer care about low S.
Yeah, Spinefists finally having a home is good. I just don't get the Devourer nerf is all. S3, AP-, Assault 3 was good balance point and with Fleshborers being the default Tervigon spawn and getting buffed there was a good balance there between them. My only guess is someone on the design team got bodied one too many times by Devilgaunts in the past.
That or there is some combo I have quite seen that makes them worth using still.
30x Fleshborer shots with a 28" range that are S7 AP-1 and AP-2 at 14". Tervigon can use it's Synaptic Link (Brood Progenitor) on them so they hit on 3+ instead of 4+.
I have a question about Synaptic Link abilities. The wording for all of them says, "... that has not already been selected for this ability for this turn." Because Brood Progenitor is the ability and I also want to smash them with Alpha Warrior from a Tyranid Prime so they can also re-roll 1's to wound because why not. While I'm at it, why not broadcast the Guidemind Synaptic Imperative from the Tyranid Prime as well for exploding 6's? Yaaay.
Tyran wrote: Devourers are bad, but spinefists are 2 pistol shots for free, run Gorgon and they are better than fleshborers because you no longer care about low S.
But you might well still care about range and AP. And you're still losing out on wounding on 3s against most infantry rather than 4s.
Gorgon probably isn't the worst fleet,* but you really have to go all-in on little guys and go out of your way to avoid fleshborers to make it worthwhile. Almost everything else can push (or just has) strength high enough that it doesn't matter, except against vehicles, and Gorgon's base trait doesn't help there anyway. Even Venomthropes and Zoanthropes are punching down on marines, and are innately 4+ to wound against necron immortals, orks and death guard
*that 'honor' likely goes to Kronos or Hydra, if only because their adaptive traits are the least bad parts. Jormungandr can at least trade off its really bad bit.
Though lets be honest, Hydra's the worst.
ClockworkZion wrote:That or there is some combo I have quite seen that makes them worth using still.
Eh. You can pay CP to get the toxin sacs effect on shooting (2 cp, or 1 if you paid for toxin sacs on... termagants).
Scorchbugs exists, still, but its mostly for that moment you really need the range or desperately want S6 fleshborers against a very small selection of targets.
Exocrine one is pretty much the only shooting strat that seems worthwhile.
There are a couple ways to negate the advance and shoot penalty.
The best shooting buff is probably the Tyranid primes 'Guidemind' Imperative, where 6s create additional hits. But that's really another notch for fleshborers, warrior deathspitters or dakkafexes. Most things (well, fleshborer hive, but that'd be my last choice for a tyrannofex) don't get enough shots to matter.
----
Melee combos are much more ridiculous.
Kraken Trygon Prime with Adrenal Glands and the Searhive, and the enhanced senses Warlord Trait. and buffed by the Adrenal Surge strat.
13+d3 attacks, fights first and can reroll all hit rolls, everything autowounds (against non-vehicles and non-monsters), and -4 AP. 2 damage per attack. It basically just kills units.
Add in the tyranid warrior's synaptic imperative (6s to hit become additional hits)
If you like, swap the adaptive trait for double the # of wounds remaining to determine the stat bracket, just so it stays dangerous.
30x Fleshborer shots with a 28" range that are S7 AP-1 and AP-2 at 14". Tervigon can use it's Synaptic Link (Brood Progenitor) on them so they hit on 3+ instead of 4+.
I have a question about Synaptic Link abilities. The wording for all of them says, "... that has not already been selected for this ability for this turn." Because Brood Progenitor is the ability and I also want to smash them with Alpha Warrior from a Tyranid Prime so they can also re-roll 1's to wound because why not. While I'm at it, why not broadcast the Guidemind Synaptic Imperative from the Tyranid Prime as well for exploding 6's? Yaaay.
Alpha Warrior isn't Brood Progenitor (this ability refers to each individual ability), so both work. There really isn't such a thing (in game terms) as a Synaptic Link ability. Its just that some ranges refer to 'Synaptic Link Range.' The 12" chain between synpase creatures is all that matters. Big Warrior units make this stupidly good, by the way (though not as good as it could be thanks to the 6+ model coherency rules). Which matters for all the basic psychic powers except Smite and Psychic Scream. You can buff or debuff from across the entire table if you set up right.
30x Fleshborer shots with a 28" range that are S7 AP-1 and AP-2 at 14". Tervigon can use it's Synaptic Link (Brood Progenitor) on them so they hit on 3+ instead of 4+.
I have a question about Synaptic Link abilities. The wording for all of them says, "... that has not already been selected for this ability for this turn." Because Brood Progenitor is the ability and I also want to smash them with Alpha Warrior from a Tyranid Prime so they can also re-roll 1's to wound because why not. While I'm at it, why not broadcast the Guidemind Synaptic Imperative from the Tyranid Prime as well for exploding 6's? Yaaay.
Alpha Warrior isn't Brood Progenitor (this ability refers to each individual ability), so both work. There really isn't such a thing (in game terms) as a Synaptic Link ability. Its just that some ranges refer to 'Synaptic Link Range.' The 12" chain between synpase creatures is all that matters. Big Warrior units make this stupidly good, by the way (though not as good as it could be thanks to the 6+ model coherency rules). Which matters for all the basic psychic powers except Smite and Psychic Scream. You can buff or debuff from across the entire table if you set up right.
Errr... yeah, I know that Synaptic Link really just describes a system rather than an individual rule itself. I was just imagining there might be some confusion when people see the words "Synaptic Link" and immediately think about how they were implemented and operated in the prior supplement. Anyway, dangerous Termagants, here I come. lol.
I'm really interested on giving Gorgon a try with lots of Homagaunts and even get some use out of my devilgants. In Gorgon, hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs seem like they could dish out a lot of wounds to anything. Toxin Sacs aren't limited to non-vehicles either. The strat and psychic powers would make them even more deadly.
Unrelated to Gorgon, the secondary objectives seem terrible. They are all very situational or would only get you around 4 points.
Synaptic Insight seems only good against custodes or deathwing, and only if you have a lot of synapse. It seems like it would force you to make sub-optimal plays to try and maximize points because killing 2 12 wound tanks gets you no more points than killing a 3 wound model and a 12 wound tank. Spore Nodes seems viable but you would need to run a lot of min Gargoyle squads since only Troops can score it. The other troops are going to be too far away or trying to get into melee. Cranial Feast is interesting since you can get CP but it has so many hoops to jump through and poor rolls could mean you get nothing.
@shamroll- Spore nodes also has an extra quirk, where you can start the action 6" away from the deployment zone, but have to put the marker wholly within it and be within 1" of the marker. Its...wacky.
Voss wrote: ñ
But you might well still care about range and AP. And you're still losing out on wounding on 3s against most infantry rather than 4s.
And you are gaining double the amount of shots and the ability to shoot into melee.
It is a fair trade IMHO.
Eh. The math might be worth working out- its too late to do it myself, but I don't think wounding on 3s and reducing armor saves is that much worse than 4+ and no AP on 2 shots.
And then the range factor on top (where the spinegants _are_ in charge range, and the the fleshgants may not be, or can shoot and sit on an objective, while the spines might have to move off or out of cover)
Plus the _much_ better ability to strip some wounds off vehicles and monsters, and just generally be more threatening to characters and heavy infantry.
----
Melee combos are much more ridiculous.
Kraken Trygon Prime with Adrenal Glands and the Searhive, and the enhanced senses Warlord Trait. and buffed by the Adrenal Surge strat.
13+d3 attacks, fights first and can reroll all hit rolls, everything autowounds (against non-vehicles and non-monsters), and -4 AP. 2 damage per attack. It basically just kills units.
Add in the tyranid warrior's synaptic imperative (6s to hit become additional hits)
If you like, swap the adaptive trait for double the # of wounds remaining to determine the stat bracket, just so it stays dangerous.
Woof, if my math is right thats going to average about 15 hits before the profile degrades. Will delete everything except blobs of conscripts and cultists, etc.
Voss wrote: Eh. The math might be worth working out- its too late to do it myself, but I don't think wounding on 3s and reducing armor saves is that much worse than 4+ and no AP on 2 shots.
And then the range factor on top (where the spinegants _are_ in charge range, and the the fleshgants may not be, or can shoot and sit on an objective, while the spines might have to move off or out of cover)
Plus the _much_ better ability to strip some wounds off vehicles and monsters, and just generally be more threatening to characters and heavy infantry.
FWIW:
Against T4/3+, a single Fleshborer Termagant averages 0.17 wounds.
A Spinefists Gorgon Termagant averages 0.17. So it's a wash.
Against T3/5+, a single Fleshborer Termagant averages 0.28 wounds.
A Spinefists Gorgon Termagant averages 0.33.
I am inclined to agree with you; there's no firepower advantage, and I'd rather have the extra range over shooting in melee.
And against Ork boyz a fleshborers averages 0.25 and a gorgon spinefist averages 0.41665
Spinefist also have the advantage against daemons because invulnerables.
Tyran wrote: And against Ork boyz a fleshborers averages 0.25 and a gorgon spinefist averages 0.41665
Spinefist also have the advantage against daemons because invulnerables.
Depends on the target and your meta.
That's completely fair. I think I'd rather have the range and options other than Gorgon, but there is a case for spinefists in that niche.
Tyran wrote: And against Ork boyz a fleshborers averages 0.25 and a gorgon spinefist averages 0.41665 Spinefist also have the advantage against daemons because invulnerables.
Depends on the target and your meta.
That's completely fair. I think I'd rather have the range and options other than Gorgon, but there is a case for spinefists in that niche.
I would also argue that if you have a large unit of 30, giving some of them spinefists may still be worth if for the extra flexibility in the case you get charged, even if you aren't Gorgon. You don't want a big unit of termagants being tied by some enemy chaff.
Tyran wrote: And against Ork boyz a fleshborers averages 0.25 and a gorgon spinefist averages 0.41665
Spinefist also have the advantage against daemons because invulnerables.
Depends on the target and your meta.
That's completely fair. I think I'd rather have the range and options other than Gorgon, but there is a case for spinefists in that niche.
I would also argue that if you have a large unit of 30, giving some of them spinefists may still be worth if for the extra flexibility in the case you get charged, even if you aren't Gorgon. You don't want a big unit of termagants being tied by some enemy chaff.
Can't. Termagant weapons are all or nothing. They have fleshborers or ALL models in unit replace them.
For me, the biggest problem with Gorgon is you're burning your hive fleet rule to prop up some of the weakest choices in the codex, and at least for termagants, they don't need to be that weak. Outside some very specific match ups, and a few corner cases , the Strength characteristics in the codex are high enough that poison doesn't matter. The overall stat shift just makes it irrelevant most of the time, and there are only a few monster vs monster fights where some of the worst options in the codex are hitting at S7 rather than 8, or 9, or 14. Gorgon's effectiveness just vanishes if ~700-1000 points of your army aren't bound up in t3 w1 5+ save models. You could have another hive fleet adaptation instead.
Can't. Termagant weapons are all or nothing. They have fleshborers or ALL models in unit replace them.
For me, the biggest problem with Gorgon is you're burning your hive fleet rule to prop up some of the weakest choices in the codex, and at least for termagants, they don't need to be that weak. Outside some very specific match ups, and a few corner cases , the Strength characteristics in the codex are high enough that poison doesn't matter. The overall stat shift just makes it irrelevant most of the time, and there are only a few monster vs monster fights where some of the worse option in the codex are hitting at S7 rather than 8, or 9, or 14. Gorgon's effectiveness just vanishes if ~700-1000 points of your army aren't bound up in t3 w1 5+ save models. You could have another hive fleet adaptation instead.
Those specific matchups are not exactly niche though. For example Gorgon is an excellent mirror match adaptation, specially with how prevalent nidzilla armies currently are. Plus it isn't just the adaptations, Gorgon relic, psychic power and stratagem are also quite good,
I miss hive commander. I will try with getting 1st turn charge like this instead:
Winged hive tyrant 17' move with adrenal glands
Kraken strateger opportunistic advance 8''
Onslaught psychic power in order to charge
Shard lure for 3d6 choosing the highest on the charge.
So 25' move with 3d6 charge picking the highest.
Tons of strats or relics to give him more punching power.
Probably giving him 5+ fnp and -1 to hit camaeolic skin relic for durability once he gets there.
licensedfool wrote: I miss hive commander. I will try with getting 1st turn charge like this instead:
Winged hive tyrant 17' move with adrenal glands
Kraken strateger opportunistic advance 8''
Onslaught psychic power in order to charge
Shard lure for 3d6 choosing the highest on the charge.
So 25' move with 3d6 charge picking the highest.
Tons of strats or relics to give him more punching power.
Probably giving him 5+ fnp and -1 to hit camaeolic skin relic for durability once he gets there.
And if it still doesn't make it, just use Encircle The Prey and escape off of the board!
licensedfool wrote: I miss hive commander. I will try with getting 1st turn charge like this instead:
Winged hive tyrant 17' move with adrenal glands
Kraken strateger opportunistic advance 8''
Onslaught psychic power in order to charge
Shard lure for 3d6 choosing the highest on the charge.
So 25' move with 3d6 charge picking the highest.
Tons of strats or relics to give him more punching power.
Probably giving him 5+ fnp and -1 to hit camaeolic skin relic for durability once he gets there.
Been building on this and I think you can get 3 monsters reliably charging first turn using Kraken:
Swap adaptive trait for +1 to charge rolls
Pop Tervigon link on round one for +2" movement
Winged Hive Tyrant moves 19" with AG Trygon Prime moves 21" with AG / opportunistic advance, and receives Onslaught
Drop a Tcyte with a Haruspex or something inside. Uses Shard Lure to make an 8" charge (with command reroll if needed for ~90% odds)
Take Resonance Barb relic on the Tervigon for more reliable Onslaught & Catalyst
cuda1179 wrote: Any rules anyone can see preventing Tcytes transporting other Tcytes for nesting doll hilarity?
Didn't that get FAQ'd last time? You think they would've rememb... wait we're talking about GW here. Of course they forgot.
Yep and then they completely forgot to include that little caveat this time. I mean... honestly, they shouldn't really HAVE to tell us that you can't put a Tyrannocyte into another Tyrannocyte, but this is the current era we live in. Will they FAQ it on Day 1? Yes.
Probably a failure attributable to the lack of digital rulebooks. Because they don't have to update rulebooks in response to FAQ, the FAQ doesn't get incorporated into their documentation. When they go to write a new codex they just copy/paste the old rules wholesale and its probably 50/50 whether they remember to check to see if there are any FAQ corrections that need to be rolled in.
chaos0xomega wrote: Probably a failure attributable to the lack of digital rulebooks. Because they don't have to update rulebooks in response to FAQ, the FAQ doesn't get incorporated into their documentation. When they go to write a new codex they just copy/paste the old rules wholesale and its probably 50/50 whether they remember to check to see if there are any FAQ corrections that need to be rolled in.
I am more than certain that a number of points updates GW have released have been done without looking at the previous version, and in fact by using the version before that.
I remember - Ogryn I think was the example - where they were overpriced in one version of a points update, were reduced in the next version, and then in the next version reverted back to the previous price with no explanation. And it happened quite a bit, making me think that whomever did that section didn't read/didn't know about the last points adjustment.
r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote: Yep and then they completely forgot to include that little caveat this time. I mean... honestly, they shouldn't really HAVE to tell us that you can't put a Tyrannocyte into another Tyrannocyte, but this is the current era we live in. Will they FAQ it on Day 1? Yes.
It is literally the first thing I noticed about the Tyrannocyte entry.
That one arrived late (alongside the Sporocyst, Spores and regular Trygon pages), so I saw people talking about it before I managed to get a copy. I went straight to the Tyrannocyte as someone mentioned that you can't fit a Tyrannofex in there anymore ( ) so I went to the transport capacity, saw the wound limit, then looked at the Tyrannocyte itself and realised that you could transport endless Tyrannocytes in Tyrannocytes because they forgot (again!) to stop that. Could'a just given the Tyrannocyte a few extra wounds, but no, they forgot.
Can't. Termagant weapons are all or nothing. They have fleshborers or ALL models in unit replace them.
For me, the biggest problem with Gorgon is you're burning your hive fleet rule to prop up some of the weakest choices in the codex, and at least for termagants, they don't need to be that weak. Outside some very specific match ups, and a few corner cases , the Strength characteristics in the codex are high enough that poison doesn't matter. The overall stat shift just makes it irrelevant most of the time, and there are only a few monster vs monster fights where some of the worse option in the codex are hitting at S7 rather than 8, or 9, or 14. Gorgon's effectiveness just vanishes if ~700-1000 points of your army aren't bound up in t3 w1 5+ save models. You could have another hive fleet adaptation instead.
Those specific matchups are not exactly niche though. For example Gorgon is an excellent mirror match adaptation, specially with how prevalent nidzilla armies currently are.
Plus it isn't just the adaptations, Gorgon relic, psychic power and stratagem are also quite good,
Plus if you're big on the Endless Swarm style army it lends itself well to that build.
Maybe don't say players are the problem when GW can't write rules properly.
Just a thought...
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. This is an example of obvious intent and only the most inane of rules lawyers would even dare to try it. GW really shouldn't have to tell you that you can't put a drop pod in drop pod.
Tyran wrote: Is there any advantage in nesting dolls?
While hilarious, it also just seems a waste transport space.
Usually not, but I can think of one instance. Suppose you have two Tcytes next to each other. If your opponent tries to kill one for some victgory points conditions (first blood, Space wolves kill a monster, etc.) and severely wounds one, but doesn't kill it, then it can "get away" by hopping into the other Tcyte to protect it.
So rather than a Seeding Swarm, you have Nesting Swarm that appears small at first, but then expands greatly!
Another advantage: I don't think there is any conditions where you MUST disembark on the turn a Tcyte deepstrikes, only that it must be placed by turn 3. So, you could, if the situation appeared, play out the clock and play a game of cups, then at the last second have all the clowns pile out of the car to flood an area the opponent thought was safe.
Could there also be some movement shenanigans where you can disembark from one, then number2..... etc. to get farther movement for a desired unit?
And before anyone jumps down our throats: Of course this wasn't intended. We even know that for a fact that it wasn't intended because we've been in this situation before.
Doesn't make it any less funny, or allow for some truly outlandish tactical choices that don't make any sense.
Also remember the leak is a playtest copy. We've already seen that the damage reduction of carnifexes has changed to include a sentence preventing it from stacking with Crusher Stampede.
Tyran wrote: Is there any advantage in nesting dolls?
While hilarious, it also just seems a waste transport space.
Usually not, but I can think of one instance. Suppose you have two Tcytes next to each other. If your opponent tries to kill one for some victgory points conditions (first blood, Space wolves kill a monster, etc.) and severely wounds one, but doesn't kill it, then it can "get away" by hopping into the other Tcyte to protect it.
Doesn't work. You cannot re-embark onto a tyrannocyte once it's on the table.
So rather than a Seeding Swarm, you have Nesting Swarm that appears small at first, but then expands greatly!
Another advantage: I don't think there is any conditions where you MUST disembark on the turn a Tcyte deepstrikes, only that it must be placed by turn 3. So, you could, if the situation appeared, play out the clock and play a game of cups, then at the last second have all the clowns pile out of the car to flood an area the opponent thought was safe.
Could there also be some movement shenanigans where you can disembark from one, then number2..... etc. to get farther movement for a desired unit?
Also doesn't work. The tyrannocyte's rules do indeed say that you must disembark as soon as it has been set up on the table.
I still can't think of a good reason why you would want to do this. My take is that it's not even worth an FAQ. As there's simply no advantage to doing it. If someone wants to goof and penalize themself for no real reason, then sure, let them. These things are basically meant to be big bags of gas anyway, so just say one of them is deflated while embarked.
Doesn't work. You cannot re-embark onto a tyrannocyte once it's on the table.
Also doesn't work. The tyrannocyte's rules do indeed say that you must disembark as soon as it has been set up on the table.
I still can't think of a good reason why you would want to do this.
My take is that it's not even worth an FAQ. As there's simply no advantage to doing it. If someone wants to goof and penalize themself for no real reason, then sure, let them.
These things are basically meant to be big bags of gas anyway, so just say one of them is deflated while embarked.
Yeah exactly. Nesting them was only really worthwhile in older editions due to the random scatter mechanic, so that everything arrived close together.
But now that you choose the point to land all you do is constrain yourself and sacrifice transport capacity for a meme.
chaos0xomega wrote: Probably a failure attributable to the lack of digital rulebooks. Because they don't have to update rulebooks in response to FAQ, the FAQ doesn't get incorporated into their documentation. When they go to write a new codex they just copy/paste the old rules wholesale and its probably 50/50 whether they remember to check to see if there are any FAQ corrections that need to be rolled in.
Man, maybe GW has been paying them accurately to what kind of job they're doing all along, and they're just incompetent.
licensedfool wrote: I miss hive commander. I will try with getting 1st turn charge like this instead:
Winged hive tyrant 17' move with adrenal glands
Kraken strateger opportunistic advance 8''
Onslaught psychic power in order to charge
Shard lure for 3d6 choosing the highest on the charge.
So 25' move with 3d6 charge picking the highest.
Tons of strats or relics to give him more punching power.
Probably giving him 5+ fnp and -1 to hit camaeolic skin relic for durability once he gets there.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I miss the days when turn one charges were extremely rare results rather than near guaranteed even against the backline of postage stamp boards.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah. First turn charges used to be next to impossible. They should be again.
How many are there exactly? I find myself wondering in the last weeks How we are all playing 40K 9th but so fundamentally different still, and the proof that it is important to first check what is the mindset of the group you will be playing. I am happy that i found likeminded people.
I agree there are quite a few units that can pull off a first turn charge. But I do not see them dominating top tables from what I read here. It is mostly shooting that gets lamented about on this forum.
The combo I read here sound exactly like the stuff why I avoid tournaments like hell, as i can not understand the sentiment that quite a lot of players seem to have.
This does not mean that these are bad people but just that they are looking for something I do not want to even think about.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I miss the days when turn one charges were extremely rare results rather than near guaranteed even against the backline of postage stamp boards.
That would be the equivalent of making every shooty unit BS5.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I miss the days when turn one charges were extremely rare results rather than near guaranteed even against the backline of postage stamp boards.
That would be the equivalent of making every shooty unit BS5.
Shooting could use to toning down as well.
I want a game where half my army is both not shot of the table or stuck in a blender before my second round starts.
Lethality, both shooting and melee, needs to be dialed back.
But that ship looks to be well at sail for this edition, so at least nids can play along.
Bad odds. As weird as it is to say (because it seems so trivial to me), I doubt they'll drop a new codex into the middle of Adepticon.
They probably planned a big chunk of their 'Adepticon preview' yammering about it, however. Despite there being essentially nothing to show off, with the Parasite and Combat Patrol already seen.
Voss wrote: Bad odds. As weird as it is to say (because it seems so trivial to me), I doubt they'll drop a new codex into the middle of Adepticon.
They probably planned a big chunk of their 'Adepticon preview' yammering about it, however. Despite there being essentially nothing to show off, with the Parasite and Combat Patrol already seen.
I can't wait for yet another preview that's two hours of pointless yammering and 15 minutes of actual content at best.
Voss wrote: Bad odds. As weird as it is to say (because it seems so trivial to me), I doubt they'll drop a new codex into the middle of Adepticon.
They probably planned a big chunk of their 'Adepticon preview' yammering about it, however. Despite there being essentially nothing to show off, with the Parasite and Combat Patrol already seen.
To be fair, if we didn’t already have the whole codex dropped into our laps already they could have made a number of “look at how much better this unit is” announcements/articles. They still might.
But even if they doled those out slowly, I’m not sure how long they could draw them out. And the nid hype train is going full steam. Since the only new stuff looks to be the codex, Parasite, and Combat Patrol, how long can it go on?
If not tomorrow, next week. But I’d bet sooner rather than later.
Voss wrote: Bad odds. As weird as it is to say (because it seems so trivial to me), I doubt they'll drop a new codex into the middle of Adepticon.
They probably planned a big chunk of their 'Adepticon preview' yammering about it, however. Despite there being essentially nothing to show off, with the Parasite and Combat Patrol already seen.
I can't wait for yet another preview that's two hours of pointless yammering and 15 minutes of actual content at best.
I can. I'll look at the pics a couple hours later.
Nevelon wrote:To be fair, if we didn’t already have the whole codex dropped into our laps already they could have made a number of “look at how much better this unit is” announcements/articles. They still might.
But even if they doled those out slowly, I’m not sure how long they could draw them out. And the nid hype train is going full steam. Since the only new stuff looks to be the codex, Parasite, and Combat Patrol, how long can it go on?
If not tomorrow, next week. But I’d bet sooner rather than later.
Oh, definitely soon. Just the big event complicates things since Metawatch! and whichever tournament group they bought are unofficially officially GW Things now
They can hype switch, though. Yes, they will still do nid articles. But there won't be that much complaining if they spent part of the next week and a half (especially post 'preview show')giving some glimpses of Ash Wastes and whatever Underworlds, AoS and uh... Warcry? (Is that still continuing?) things are also happening. They can always announce a new 'primaris model with swords now' as well.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I miss the days when turn one charges were extremely rare results rather than near guaranteed even against the backline of postage stamp boards.
That would be the equivalent of making every shooty unit BS5.
Shooting could use to toning down as well.
I want a game where half my army is both not shot of the table or stuck in a blender before my second round starts.
Lethality, both shooting and melee, needs to be dialed back.
But that ship looks to be well at sail for this edition, so at least nids can play along.
I'd be down for a flat reduction of everything's WS/BS by 1 for the first round. Call it fog of war.
Voss wrote: Bad odds. As weird as it is to say (because it seems so trivial to me), I doubt they'll drop a new codex into the middle of Adepticon.
They probably planned a big chunk of their 'Adepticon preview' yammering about it, however. Despite there being essentially nothing to show off, with the Parasite and Combat Patrol already seen.
To be fair, if we didn’t already have the whole codex dropped into our laps already they could have made a number of “look at how much better this unit is” announcements/articles. They still might.
But even if they doled those out slowly, I’m not sure how long they could draw them out. And the nid hype train is going full steam. Since the only new stuff looks to be the codex, Parasite, and Combat Patrol, how long can it go on?
If not tomorrow, next week. But I’d bet sooner rather than later.
Voss wrote: Bad odds. As weird as it is to say (because it seems so trivial to me), I doubt they'll drop a new codex into the middle of Adepticon.
They probably planned a big chunk of their 'Adepticon preview' yammering about it, however. Despite there being essentially nothing to show off, with the Parasite and Combat Patrol already seen.
To be fair, if we didn’t already have the whole codex dropped into our laps already they could have made a number of “look at how much better this unit is” announcements/articles. They still might.
But even if they doled those out slowly, I’m not sure how long they could draw them out. And the nid hype train is going full steam. Since the only new stuff looks to be the codex, Parasite, and Combat Patrol, how long can it go on?
If not tomorrow, next week. But I’d bet sooner rather than later.
I mean that's how the Eldar previews went.
I think there is a pretty solid chance that the Nid codex goes up for Preview tomorrow and preorder the 26th.
That's fair. I occasionally forget that the preview is the preorder preview, not the release preview. And the articles are the previews for the preview of the preorder.
And the online 'shows' are special sneak peaks at the previews of the preview of the preorder. Woo. Hype. Yah.
Was not expecting the week to be more eldar. Thought we were going to have to wait longer for them. I guess I was wrong on the nids. Not that it save my wallet, as I covet the elves as well. Going to be a rough year.
Nevelon wrote: Was not expecting the week to be more eldar. Thought we were going to have to wait longer for them. I guess I was wrong on the nids. Not that it save my wallet, as I covet the elves as well. Going to be a rough year.
With just one new model coming you hopefully should not spend much money
Nevelon wrote: Was not expecting the week to be more eldar. Thought we were going to have to wait longer for them. I guess I was wrong on the nids. Not that it save my wallet, as I covet the elves as well. Going to be a rough year.
With just one new model coming you hopefully should not spend much money
Codex and parasite are at the top of the list. With the move of stuff around the FOC and the changes to flyrants I’ve got my eye on the combat patrol. Need more troops and a foot tyrant. Plus there is the existing stuff on my initial to buy list I haven’t picked up yet (zoanthopes, another box of hormagaunts, maybe ravegers)
Without the changes, I probably would have been fine with just the new stuff. The new rules moved warriors from a “maybe” to a “need” and the fact that you can’t mix guns in termagaunt squads added at least one box of them. Probably two to cover the fact that genestealers and rippers can no longer fill troop slots. Sure, the 10 gargs I have are troops now, but not exactly a unit I can count on to hold objectives.
It’s not break the bank bad (that would be the Eldar) but there are going to be a lot of bugs kicking around the workbench if I don’t show some restraint.
Nevelon wrote: Was not expecting the week to be more eldar. Thought we were going to have to wait longer for them. I guess I was wrong on the nids. Not that it save my wallet, as I covet the elves as well. Going to be a rough year.
With just one new model coming you hopefully should not spend much money
Codex and parasite are at the top of the list. With the move of stuff around the FOC and the changes to flyrants I’ve got my eye on the combat patrol. Need more troops and a foot tyrant. Plus there is the existing stuff on my initial to buy list I haven’t picked up yet (zoanthopes, another box of hormagaunts, maybe ravegers)
Without the changes, I probably would have been fine with just the new stuff. The new rules moved warriors from a “maybe” to a “need” and the fact that you can’t mix guns in termagaunt squads added at least one box of them. Probably two to cover the fact that genestealers and rippers can no longer fill troop slots. Sure, the 10 gargs I have are troops now, but not exactly a unit I can count on to hold objectives.
It’s not break the bank bad (that would be the Eldar) but there are going to be a lot of bugs kicking around the workbench if I don’t show some restraint.
Yeah I can see the need to adjust armies to the new rules and get some extra bugs for that effect. I also have many holes on my Nid collection, I never got into the BIG new kits since they are out of scale and utter ugly, I doubt I will ever go that route. A big Hive tyrant and Fexes are good enough.
With the lack of design updates I get the feeling after these 20 years that it will never actually happen which can be a good thing.
Im inclined to let my classic hive fleet drift away in its decades long hibernation and rethink and sculpt myself my own fleet from scratch.
Adepticon preview's happening, and we should be getting a tease for the next warzone and Kill Team set.
??? The current one literally just released. I'm not going to go dig up a timeline on this, but I'm pretty sure there was more of a gap between release and the preview for the next box in the past. I wouldn't expect the next preview to be for another 6 weeks at least.
Adepticon preview's happening, and we should be getting a tease for the next warzone and Kill Team set.
??? The current one literally just released. I'm not going to go dig up a timeline on this, but I'm pretty sure there was more of a gap between release and the preview for the next box in the past. I wouldn't expect the next preview to be for another 6 weeks at least.
I didn't say release. I said "tease". Adepticon usually sees a tease of whatever we should expect for the summer.
Here's the initial timeline:
Spoiler:
Admittedly, that's from the Octarius announcement but it seems to be a three month window for the KT warzone boxes. Some will be "all new" items and some will have old stuff packed with new specialist sprues.
Warzones are 6 month turnovers going forward. Purportedly the Aeldari stuff is around 3-4 months behind where it was supposed to be too.
I know you said tease, I'm saying its too early for that. You made me look it up - the first tease/reveal for Nachmund was January 28th. Based on that, we probably wouldn't see anything about the next War Zone until towards the end of April, for release in June - unless they really are trying to catch up on a backlog and intend to release the next box sooner than that.
And that's actually why I'd suggested there might be a tease. They showcased the first Corsair model at LVO, then showed off individual operatives and the like going forward.
I'm rooting for a Vanguard Organisms Kill-Team, dangit!
Imagine they somehow included new plastic Genestealers there...Yeah, I know. At best there will be a new Lictor sprue on top of the old Genestealers one.
Red Terror was an artefact and the Trygon/Mawloc was somehow, conceptually, it's replacement.
The Trygon that existed in Epic several years before the Red Terror made its debut was inspired by the Red Terror? WTH?
You may have a point on the Mawloc, though.
Daedalus81 wrote: Then it's a good thing that they just released a combat patrol with only termagants.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Ugh, how does this crap get through playtesting? I agree, it needs to be nuked from orbit but there should also be some blanket errata to the Harridan and Hierophant datasheet that makes them ineligible for all but a select set of strats or something. It drives me bonkers when somebody goes to a tourney and crushes it with these interactions that were never intended.
Can't blame FW for it, given how long the Studio has had charge of the rules. If they CBA to remember what exists, that's firmly on them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Can the Hive Tyrant (and, by extension, Tyranid players) please stop paying for this now?
Not until Chaos has finished making amends for the v3.5 travesty.
Kitane wrote: Just removing Single-minded annihilation would solve their balance issues, but no, GW had to balefire both loadouts out of the weave of existence.
With all this AP -1 going around, I feel sorry for Orks. And I wonder if in the next round of marine codexes if they’ll add a pip to marine armor to offset all the upgraded weaponry floating around.
Any week now. People were honestly surprised the preorder preview wasn't nids this past Sunday.
Given that they're hinting at Knights for the 'big preview show,' Sunday announcement for nids Codex and Parasite (maybe even combat patrol, as we're caught up now) wouldn't be a shock.
Warcom article today had me thinking... has anyone discovered a way to actually play games with the Toxicrene in a practical sense? The tentacles take up an entire second base worth of space, so much so that I see it as next to impossible to even have the thing on its base most of the time.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Warcom article today had me thinking... has anyone discovered a way to actually play games with the Toxicrene in a practical sense? The tentacles take up an entire second base worth of space, so much so that I see it as next to impossible to even have the thing on its base most of the time.
I had to build up a scenic ruin for someone's Toxicrene years ago, just for that reason. Angle it upwards something like 20 degrees and it looks much better.
Before asking: no, I don't have any pictures of it sadly!
NinthMusketeer wrote: Warcom article today had me thinking... has anyone discovered a way to actually play games with the Toxicrene in a practical sense? The tentacles take up an entire second base worth of space, so much so that I see it as next to impossible to even have the thing on its base most of the time.
Even storing mine on my new shelves is tough. It gets in the way of everything.
gigasnail wrote: i just didn't put the arms on mine. i've cut the tentacles up and was planning on reposing them but the unit was so bad for so long, i never bothered.
Good news: its still pretty bad. Almost every monster in the book can wound on 2+ against T4 or lower (so yes, its useful against some targets), but it swats enemies so lightly and lost its defensive ability for other units (venomthropes didn't, which is odd) and costs nearly as much as any other monster, but offers a t lot less.
Yeah I'm not super stoked about it now, either. It's another modeling project I need to finish. I have a pair of then with the arms missing, been like that for years.
The Toxicrene at least is playable now, the problem it has now isn't that its bad, just that its not as good as the other things you could spend those points on instead... but if my predicted hordening in 10th comes to pass, it might be useful when the meta starts to shift to large units of low toughness 1 wound models lol
gigasnail wrote: i just didn't put the arms on mine. i've cut the tentacles up and was planning on reposing them but the unit was so bad for so long, i never bothered.
Good news: its still pretty bad. Almost every monster in the book can wound on 2+ against T4 or lower (so yes, its useful against some targets), but it swats enemies so lightly and lost its defensive ability for other units (venomthropes didn't, which is odd) and costs nearly as much as any other monster, but offers a t lot less.
It lost the sporecaster ability in 8th too, that's not new to 9th.
I don't think it's as good as much of our other stuff but it has utility in the ability to lock models in, potentially cause fight last, and with that strat that drags units toward it IIRC (I don't have the text of that in front of me).
But I think it's good enough that my meme list of 12 venomthropes, 3 toxicrenes (yes, I have all of this...) and some assorted other squiggly Nids won't be a complete and utter joke.
They seemed to have designed the Toxicrene as a utility piece, but it doesn't do any job in particular very well.
For instance, I'd rather have Venomthropes and use the stratagem to make it's aura out to 12'. and we have tons of ways of killing small 1 wound models.
That being said, it is pretty cheap for the amount of T8 wounds it has. The aura may come in handy if you need to extend it out and don't move. but it feels like a lot of things need to go right for it.
Tyran wrote: It provides a -1 to hits in melee bubble
Minor clarification: the Toxicrene's to hit penalty works on both shooting and melee for all enemy units in the aura range.
When it's in combat it counts as Remaining Stationary, so you can use the Spore Clouds strat for a 9" bubble even affecting things well outside the combat. Then it natively prevents the enemy units nearby from falling back and an opponent can't easily kill it to avoid the penalty... It's another reason why I think the Toxicrene is best used in a tcyte.
The Toxicrene works the reverse way of Venomthropes. Instead of sitting back spreading a -1 hit bubble to buddies it rushes toward enemy shooty units to spread the-1 hit
love. Then it hugs you and won't let go. He cuddles.
v0iddrgn wrote: The Toxicrene works the reverse way of Venomthropes. Instead of sitting back spreading a -1 hit bubble to buddies it rushes toward enemy shooty units to spread the love. Then it hugs you and won't let go. He cuddles.
I find it as a clever niche for the Toxicrene because with the way it works it doesn't invalid Venomthropes or vice versa. It also shows GW put some thought into that.
v0iddrgn wrote: The Toxicrene works the reverse way of Venomthropes. Instead of sitting back spreading a -1 hit bubble to buddies it rushes toward enemy shooty units to spread the love. Then it hugs you and won't let go. He cuddles.
You can create your own living tide of Rippers when Codex: Tyranids and the Parasite of Mortrex arrive for pre-order in the very near future. Our xenologists are hard at work deciphering the hive mind’s inscrutable design, and there’ll be more previews in the coming weeks, so subscribe to the Warhammer Community newsletter if you don’t want to miss out.
You can create your own living tide of Rippers when Codex: Tyranids and the Parasite of Mortrex arrive for pre-order in the very near future. Our xenologists are hard at work deciphering the hive mind’s inscrutable design, and there’ll be more previews in the coming weeks, so subscribe to the Warhammer Community newsletter if you don’t want to miss out.
Well... 'coming weeks' makes it sound further away to me. The rumor about the knight army set coming first, then nids and then knight books and then chaos marines might have some weight.
Maybe Thondia or the AoS versus box first? Underworlds dead boys or norse team?
Given we're getting Eldar Wave 2 going up for pre-order tomorrow, 'Nids being at least a fortnight away makes sense - can't see GW wanting to do back-to-back 40k weeks like that, especially if they could break things up with another release.
Might mean next week is the Girls & Ghosts AOS box, for example, or some SpecBrand stuff..
Dysartes wrote: Given we're getting Eldar Wave 2 going up for pre-order tomorrow, 'Nids being at least a fortnight away makes sense - can't see GW wanting to do back-to-back 40k weeks like that, especially if they could break things up with another release.
Might mean next week is the Girls & Ghosts AOS box, for example, or some SpecBrand stuff..
I think you're overestimating how much new stuff they actually have for AoS.
Adepticon's reveal was another model for Nighthaunt and a box of scenery. It ain't looking like they are chock full of AoS stuff right now.
Eh, it's a box we've known about for a week, and it would provide a bit of a break between 40k weeks - that's pretty much all my logic on it at the moment.
I wonder if they think it’s OK to do back-to-back xenos releases, figuring what sort of crazy person would be masochistic enough to collect two of them?
Silly marketing tricks, but they work. I hate heading to the store just to poach the freebie, so think of what I could grab. Then think of if there is enough for the coin…
I think if you're tempted to go into a store to poach a free mini then you have deeper problems you need to work out. The minis they are offering are always basically a basic trooper model that most of us don't really have any need for. WTF are you going to do with an extra hormagaunt, really? They come in units of 10-30 and are sold in boxes of 12. Unless you're running weird squad sizes its probably not going to do anything for you. Its even worse when the free mini is for a unit that comes in squads of 5-10 minis but are sold in boxes of 10... its not like you can even really field the extra guy.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think if you're tempted to go into a store to poach a free mini then you have deeper problems you need to work out. The minis they are offering are always basically a basic trooper model that most of us don't really have any need for. WTF are you going to do with an extra hormagaunt, really? They come in units of 10-30 and are sold in boxes of 12. Unless you're running weird squad sizes its probably not going to do anything for you. Its even worse when the free mini is for a unit that comes in squads of 5-10 minis but are sold in boxes of 10... its not like you can even really field the extra guy.
Base decoration for me- always handy to have an extra model kicking around and I have loads of hormagaunts .
How does one get the coin? Tempted for once.. need to get varnish spray and a few paints.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think if you're tempted to go into a store to poach a free mini then you have deeper problems you need to work out. The minis they are offering are always basically a basic trooper model that most of us don't really have any need for. WTF are you going to do with an extra hormagaunt, really? They come in units of 10-30 and are sold in boxes of 12. Unless you're running weird squad sizes its probably not going to do anything for you. Its even worse when the free mini is for a unit that comes in squads of 5-10 minis but are sold in boxes of 10... its not like you can even really field the extra guy.
Base decoration for me- always handy to have an extra model kicking around and I have loads of hormagaunts .
How does one get the coin? Tempted for once.. need to get varnish spray and a few paints.
I think they are supposed to be with $100 purchases, but I’ve gotten them with less before.
Because the whole codex was leaked, so those changes are kinda old news to this thread (aside of giving even more legitimacy to the leak).
As for ranged vs CC nids, CC nids have way more damage potential, but getting into melee still requires building some delivery combos or walking across the board, so I'm unsure if one is better than the other.
Way better players than me will have to figure that out for tournament play.
So for those who have played some test games with the new book, are Tyranids the next space clowns where they start out with a 90%wr excluding mirror matches or are they the next Black Templars where they start at 55% and sink down to 30% as more books are released?
Honestly really depends on what happens with Crusher Stampede and Leviathan, which we are only going to know when they are FAQed with the release of the new codex.
Toofast wrote: So for those who have played some test games with the new book, are Tyranids the next space clowns where they start out with a 90%wr excluding mirror matches or are they the next Black Templars where they start at 55% and sink down to 30% as more books are released?
The only report I've seen so far is Tyranids vs Tyranids, so technically they have a 100% win rate and a 100% lose rate.
Toofast wrote: So for those who have played some test games with the new book, are Tyranids the next space clowns where they start out with a 90%wr excluding mirror matches or are they the next Black Templars where they start at 55% and sink down to 30% as more books are released?
The only report I've seen so far is Tyranids vs Tyranids, so technically they have a 100% win rate and a 100% lose rate.
So, a perfectly balanced Codex.
That's.... that's not how math works. ::winces in pain::
They definitely are not the next space clowns, but they are also not Black Templar.
It is a decently internally balanced codex with a ton of new rules. Keeping track of synaptic imperatives, psychic powers, specially hive fleet powers, synaptic link buffs, keeping synaptic link coherency and not forgetting about your biomorphology is definitely an exercise of memory.
I think we have a good shot at being the most complex army to play if nothing else, but that also means that truly determining the strength of the faction is kinda headache inducing.
This unit has been unnecessarily punished. 
