Is everything from Wave 2 finalized and in production?
I have it on good authority from the horse's mouth that it is 98% done and finally finalized. At least I think that was the end of the horse it came from but now that I think about it...
Forar wrote: But it'd be a hell of a lot classier than raising questions as to whether or not they're taking Peter's money to pay Paul, as has been alluded to a hundred times now (Hi Rick!).
warboss wrote: In any case, I'm no longer a customer of theirs so it doesn't affect me.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who wonders if a few companies out there in the market really, truly, understand the concept of "repeat business" or "repeat customers."
I guess I must have been absent that day, you know, where a lesson was taught on how selling nothing to no one covers overhead and allows new things to be produced. Because, especially for a few prime examples, too many companies keep trying to prove that somehow having things to sell to folks who're willing to buy them doesn't matter.
All kidding aside, I sincerely hope they only do so (if they choose to) once this campaign is done. As in, not "the molds are done and we're working on production and delivery, you can totes trust us!", but "the last box just left the warehouse".
As evidenced by the sham vote, I don't think most backers would sadly care. That said... I would point out that 5+ months after shipping "started" (Gencon or bust!), only a single continent has received wave 1. If they say that the molds are done, that is in no way a guarantee of anything arriving in a timely fashion. In any case, I'm no longer a customer of theirs so it doesn't affect me. After I get wave 2 and pick up a single zentraedi infantry box at my FLGS, I'm done with palladium again.
Well, that's only true if you don't count South America...
Is everything from Wave 2 finalized and in production?
I have it on good authority from the horse's mouth that it is 98% done and finally finalized. At least I think that was the end of the horse it came from but now that I think about it...
That was no horse, it's a cow, man! And I also believe it's a male that they're milking!
All kidding aside, I sincerely hope they only do so (if they choose to) once this campaign is done. As in, not "the molds are done and we're working on production and delivery, you can totes trust us!", but "the last box just left the warehouse".
As evidenced by the sham vote, I don't think most backers would sadly care. That said... I would point out that 5+ months after shipping "started" (Gencon or bust!), only a single continent has received wave 1. If they say that the molds are done, that is in no way a guarantee of anything arriving in a timely fashion. In any case, I'm no longer a customer of theirs so it doesn't affect me. After I get wave 2 and pick up a single zentraedi infantry box at my FLGS, I'm done with palladium again.
Well, that's only true if you don't count South America...
Are they done with South America? If they did, I missed that. In that case, they're done with 1/3 of the continents instead of 1/6... a year late... for 1/3 of the sculpts. And, yes, I'm excluding Antarctica as I assume they didn't get any orders to be mailed to the various polar research stations.
warboss wrote: Are they done with South America? If they did, I missed that. In that case, they're done with 1/3 of the continents instead of 1/6... a year late... for 1/3 of the sculpts. And, yes, I'm excluding Antarctica as I assume they didn't get any orders to be mailed to the various polar research stations.
Ah, no, what I mean is that usually "America" is counted as one single continent, so arguably they haven't even finished the one yet.
Wow, Kickstarter comments has become a troll-fest (not lola... some Jor person, one should not drink and contrive).
I now have been "pleasantly" reminded why I do not tend to post there.
I am somewhat impressed what kind of interesting words can be used, I have a new appreciation of moderation here.
The only problem is that the more public means of raising issues with a kickstarter just becomes some person's personal soapbox for attention.
Gah! Creeping up on our anniversary of being funded May 20 2013: 1/4 year to go and 2 years of RRT kickstarter and no Wave 2 in sight!
Sorry, plus a report of ships in the night heading out to UK and Australia so our friends overseas can finally get something.
Still pounding out models and have not opened the second box yet: the one and the add-on bags have been sufficient so-far.
I do admit, the box contents are rather impressive.
BTW the "guide" for pairing sprue bits I found here: http://imgur.com/a/vqSaO.
Just in case I am not the only one late in finding it (pretty much figured it out by now).
Any thoughts on Veritech missile load-out?
I have been going with the standard so-far.
MLOPS is looking good for stopping cold missile attacks received, good for missile pod hunting squadron.
Not sure what to use to model "gravity bombs", I was thinking of putting a rounded end instead of normal for the MLOPS pod.
The other burning question: black base or colour (thinking grey)? Fine gravel the base or not at all?
Whoever this is: I hate you with the utmost respect:
Talizvar wrote: Wow, Kickstarter comments has become a troll-fest (not lola... some Jor person, one should not drink and contrive).
I now have been "pleasantly" reminded why I do not tend to post there.
I am somewhat impressed what kind of interesting words can be used, I have a new appreciation of moderation here.
The only problem is that the more public means of raising issues with a kickstarter just becomes some person's personal soapbox for attention.
Gah! Creeping up on our anniversary of being funded May 20 2013: 1/4 year to go and 2 years of RRT kickstarter and no Wave 2 in sight!
Sorry, plus a report of ships in the night heading out to UK and Australia so our friends overseas can finally get something.
Still pounding out models and have not opened the second box yet: the one and the add-on bags have been sufficient so-far.
I do admit, the box contents are rather impressive.
BTW the "guide" for pairing sprue bits I found here: http://imgur.com/a/vqSaO.
Just in case I am not the only one late in finding it (pretty much figured it out by now).
Any thoughts on Veritech missile load-out?
I have been going with the standard so-far.
MLOPS is looking good for stopping cold missile attacks received, good for missile pod hunting squadron.
Not sure what to use to model "gravity bombs", I was thinking of putting a rounded end instead of normal for the MLOPS pod.
The other burning question: black base or colour (thinking grey)? Fine gravel the base or not at all?
Whoever this is: I hate you with the utmost respect:
Spoiler:
But is guardian and jet mode modeled as well??
See you all.
Personally I see it as poking a dog with a stick now that it's stuck between the slats on a fence since that same dog always snarls and barks and runs back and forth on the other side of the fence even when all you are doing is walking by to get mail out of the mailbox. I have a neighbors dog that does that.
Personally I see it as poking a dog with a stick now that it's stuck between the slats on a fence since that same dog always snarls and barks and runs back and forth on the other side of the fence even when all you are doing is walking by to get mail out of the mailbox. I have a neighbors dog that does that.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are the commenters the dog or palladium? Is palladium's lack of meaningful wave 2 info despite weekly updates for months the "stick" or the pointless and redundant insulting commentary between 4 posters the stick?
Personally I see it as poking a dog with a stick now that it's stuck between the slats on a fence since that same dog always snarls and barks and runs back and forth on the other side of the fence even when all you are doing is walking by to get mail out of the mailbox. I have a neighbors dog that does that.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are the commenters the dog or palladium? Is palladium's lack of meaningful wave 2 info despite weekly updates for months the "stick" or the pointless and redundant insulting commentary between 4 posters the stick?
hahah...No I was referring to the people getting on Jorel for saying some really dumb things. Instead of backing off or apologizing he doubles down and gets torn apart. Jorel always like to attack people even when they are not talking or referring to him so that analogy was fitting.
He's always been like that. Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary (including his own experiences that he now uses as evidence himself), he was a faithful knight of the order of Palladium during the kickstarter. Hypocrisy is his middle name. He criticized Jaymz for spamming his robotech message board links once a day when Jorel himself spammed palladium's RPG sales links every few hours for weeks during the kickstarter. He got singled out a few years back by Kevin S. for derision in a murmur yet came crawling back to lick his master's hand. I don't put any stock in what he says as he's shown that he can flip the light switch whenever it suits him. He's always been at war Eurasia until Big Kevin tells him it's actually Eastasia.
Mike1975 wrote: Personally I see it as poking a dog with a stick now that it's stuck between the slats on a fence since that same dog always snarls and barks and runs back and forth on the other side of the fence even when all you are doing is walking by to get mail out of the mailbox. I have a neighbors dog that does that.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are the commenters the dog or palladium? Is palladium's lack of meaningful wave 2 info despite weekly updates for months the "stick" or the pointless and redundant insulting commentary between 4 posters the stick?
hahah...No I was referring to the people getting on Jorel for saying some really dumb things. Instead of backing off or apologizing he doubles down and gets torn apart. Jorel always like to attack people even when they are not talking or referring to him so that analogy was fitting.
Yes, trolling the troll can feel like a perpetual bad karma machine.
But I do admit what Warboss said strikes a chord: give them something a little more productive to talk about, you can really see they are getting bored...
The shipping information IS important for those overseas, don't get me wrong, BUT it has been about 2 months now of fiddling with the new wave 1 stuff (in N.A.) and you have to wonder when we will see the rest.
There should be many lessons learned from Wave 1 so (one would think!) PB would have a little more confidence and a better handle on this next Wave.
It is funny that as I spend the time with the kits received and assembled models: much is being forgiven at least I am noticing with my own attitude.
Not enough to back another kickstarter!
It is more being accepting that the product is a reasonable standard, I got most of what I wanted (so far) and the price is good it was just the wait and the song and dance notices from PB we could have done without.
PB will continue to produce product in their own special way and now that we know it will continue no matter who they partner with: we have been warned.
lol, the models are not even close to as bad as they were portrayed. I will say that I have not started painting mine yet though.....so the seams will be more pronounced then.
Mike1975 wrote: lol, the models are not even close to as bad as they were portrayed. I will say that I have not started painting mine yet though.....so the seams will be more pronounced then.
It is such a long hard slog that I clean as best I can but get-ur-dun.
I will see if I have ambition to green-stuff and file a little more before the white prime hits the plastic.
Trying to have fully painted (& decal & clear-coat) before end of March to see if I have a hope to present at Hotlead.
warboss wrote: Are they done with South America? If they did, I missed that. In that case, they're done with 1/3 of the continents instead of 1/6... a year late... for 1/3 of the sculpts. And, yes, I'm excluding Antarctica as I assume they didn't get any orders to be mailed to the various polar research stations.
Ah, no, what I mean is that usually "America" is counted as one single continent, so arguably they haven't even finished the one yet.
Really? I would assume "America" = USA, along with "North America", simply because that is the largest market with the lowest cost. Canada, etc. are dramatically smaller markets with higher costs.
If they say "Americas", then that includes everybody else.
warboss wrote: Are they done with South America? If they did, I missed that. In that case, they're done with 1/3 of the continents instead of 1/6... a year late... for 1/3 of the sculpts. And, yes, I'm excluding Antarctica as I assume they didn't get any orders to be mailed to the various polar research stations.
Ah, no, what I mean is that usually "America" is counted as one single continent, so arguably they haven't even finished the one yet.
Really? I would assume "America" = USA, along with "North America", simply because that is the largest market with the lowest cost. Canada, etc. are dramatically smaller markets with higher costs.
If they say "Americas", then that includes everybody else.
I was taught "America", without a prefix or pluralization, referred to the country. But that the continents were North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa and Antarctica. The Americas is North and South combined. Of course, it depends on what model of "continent" you're using, as it can range from 4 to 7 (with two different variations on 6, one being combining Europe and Asia, and the other being the two Americas). Though the seven continent model appears to be the most common international usage.
But even if we take that, to my knowledge, Mexico is part of RoW for RRT, as is Greenland and a couple of small islands. Not sure if there are any backers in Greenland, but I'm pretty sure there are some in Mexico. Meaning not even North America is done.
EDIT : Wow, that was a lot more geography-nerdier than I thought it was gonna be.
Morgan Vening wrote: I was taught "America", without a prefix or pluralization, referred to the country. But that the continents were North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa and Antarctica. The Americas is North and South combined. Of course, it depends on what model of "continent" you're using, as it can range from 4 to 7 (with two different variations on 6, one being combining Europe and Asia, and the other being the two Americas). Though the seven continent model appears to be the most common international usage.
Here we were taught the "classic" 5 continents: Europe, Asia, Africa, America and Australia (with Antarctica as a variant sixth), and over here "the Americas" is what we would call it when talking about Colon or the Conquistadores, otherwise the continent would be simply "America". Apparently, it's also the same notation that the UN uses, but I didn't know that until today, TBH.
Doc Brookshire is already aware since he piqued the interest of the people over at GHQ and suggested that they might want to contact me. GHQ has modern 6mm stuff. They have seen a rise in people wanting to buy their stuff for use in Robotech Tactics. Often when people order they put in the comments that the order is for RRT or Battletech or something else. I offered to make stat cards for whatever you guys needed and wound up talking to a rep from GHQ on the phone today. I spoke to them for about 40 minutes. I explained what RRT is and about the Kickstarter and that it is new to the market. They know not everyone is interested but they want to gauge how much honest interest there is.
I suggested that they could do a small sale that lasted about a week. We could use a code like Future Tech or something. They are also interested in making things that we suggest or adding to what they have with a few futuristic vehicles as long as they stay away from existing IP.
So every time the coupon code is used they will track to see how many buy it and know how many want to use their stuff.
Here is a response I got from them just a few minutes ago via email...
Thanks again for everything! As I mentioned to you, we have been researching/discussing Robotech for a couple of weeks now, so when I ran out of my office to talk about our conversation everyone was ready to hear what you and I talked about. Your idea for the targeted discount code was a hit! Let’s run with it! We have set a discount code for 15% off on orders over $50.00 worth of merchandise. It runs through Feb. 23rd, 2015. The code is:
Futuretech15
Everyone is great with you posting it on your Facebook page, and suggesting that others post it on theirs. Please put it up as quickly as possible, and we can start to see what kind of effect it has! We all also think that it’s a good idea for you to let everyone in the Robotech community know that you have talked/e-mailed with us, and feel free to let them know anything that we discussed. We want them to know that their response to this targeted sale, and their replies to your posts can definitely have an influence.
I want you to know that every year when GHQ puts together our new release list, all of those items come from customer suggestions. We receive thousands of requests every year.
So feel free to share this on your FB page or whatever forums you frequent and lets make a good showing. Also let's get a dialog going on what else we would like to have and what we need to get Conventional stuff to work in RRT. Infantry need some rules is one example. The Dialog will also help keep this post at the top until the sale is over!
In the end: Good to look at for support vehicles to add some colour to the battlezone or objectives.
I was a bit disappointed in not being able to find any solutions for buildings.
I right now have to depend on the dropzone commander cardboard stuff.
I DO have a fair number of civilian cars I found elsewhere that I will be using.
Anyway, glad our little group can make a connection... I will see what I can throw at these guys for a little more flavor to RTT.
Well, I've ordered a Destroid pack at Wayland, to use them for an old school Mechwarrior campaign we're about to start.
Let's see how long it takes for Palladium's stuff to arrive after I receive this >_>
Bitter? Me? Naaaaaaaa
At least I'll be able to see first hand how annoying the assembly is and how noticeable (and fixable) the gaps end up being, so there's that at least. I just would have preferred to be able to do it with my fething pledge, instead of from retail.
Got two squadrons of Veritechs assembled (24 models!) and had one squad of each of the battleoids done (16 models!).
As much as I can stand to do for the good guys for now, sand bases and prime.
For the Zents, I have two scout squads done and then will do one battlegroup and try to get it all balanced to a 300 pt game.
I may have a hope of getting this done okay before the end of <edit>March<edit>, thank goodness for my new airbrush skills.
PB I have a message for you: 12 models for a squadron at 20 or so parts each: some 240 tiny parts..,
Spoiler:
Moving on.
Meanwhile back at the kickstarter comments Jorel and Rick need a room... though the complaints of assembly do have merit.
Comments on the latest update are not so nice either... PB really needs to manage their customer PR a wee tad better.
DriveThruRPG has the updated instructions for building the Fighter? and the Guardian/Gerwalk mode. No battloid yet however. I didn't know anyone was having problems assembling the fighter mode. Anyway the guide for the Guardian/Gerwalk mode is actually useful.
dalsiandon wrote: DriveThruRPG has the updated instructions for building the Fighter? and the Guardian/Gerwalk mode. No battloid yet however. I didn't know anyone was having problems assembling the fighter mode. Anyway the guide for the Guardian/Gerwalk mode is actually useful.
So while Palladium is slow moving things do appear to be moving. Wagers on how long until the much more necessary Battloid mode instructions arrive?
Shouldn't be hard to extrapolate. What should have been started "End of the week" on Jan 14 (no more than four days), took just over a month to get two done, and with twelve to do, should be finished some time around end of July.
Unless KevCo get distracted by something shiny. Oooh, GenCon is early this year, and with a delay from the Open House already, I'm sure that'll mess the schedule up.
Shouldn't be hard to extrapolate. What should have been started "End of the week" on Jan 14 (no more than four days), took just over a month to get two done, and with twelve to do, should be finished some time around end of July.
Unless KevCo get distracted by something shiny. Oooh, GenCon is early this year, and with a delay from the Open House already, I'm sure that'll mess the schedule up.
The Zen. pods are actually pleasant (~14 parts plus base) in comparison to the UEDF models (20+ parts and half the size).
Unfortunately the most fantastic instructions in the world will not ease the job of a 20 minute build per model.
The casual modeler will be looking at a squadron of the iconic Veritechs and think, hmmm 12 models for a squad? Can we just play with battleoids? Please?
I am glad they are addressing a few things with their current product but this is little more than a "patch".
I REALLY hope this is not drawing away resources from Wave 2.
You know, the thing they seem unwilling to discuss.
At least they committed to a flyer in the game box outlining the other models so there is some incentive to get it done.
Some update would be really nice other than slow boats to UK/Aus.
Even Mike has gone quiet... makes me nervous.
We have all realised that PB thinks that a 'bear' market means they can hibernate.
As they are asleep, we can resign ourselves to the long wait and hibernate ourselves, or take advantage of the falling prices and grab a few bargains
I might pick up a single set of VTs, but I am probably just going to quietly slip away, falling asleep until that wonderful day when my (3D) prints will come.
So it is. If this had been in the initial release it would have been hugly helpful from the get-go. But I have three Battloids left to build so I will make the most of it.
As of today I have received all 3 waves plus an extra shipment to fix mispacks, from Deadzone, a game with more sculpts that took less money, which funded June 3 2013.
I have yet to see a single thing from Robotech, a smaller game with less sculpts, which funded May 21 2013.
NTRabbit wrote: I have yet to see a single thing from Robotech, a smaller game with less sculpts, which funded May 21 2013.
Funny how that works, eh?
If (and it's probably a big "if") I receive something coming march, it will have been 22 months since I paid for this. And that's not even counting Wave 2...
NTRabbit wrote: I have yet to see a single thing from Robotech, a smaller game with less sculpts, which funded May 21 2013.
Funny how that works, eh?
If (and it's probably a big "if") I receive something coming march, it will have been 22 months since I paid for this. And that's not even counting Wave 2...
Sorry, but I'm only counting wave 2.
1/ There was no mention of different 'waves' during the campaign. Until all rewards are in my hands, the clock ticks on!
2/ I refuse to count a single decal sheet as having moved considerably towards completion.
I backed quite heavily on DFG's Eisenkern KS, ending up with stuff from all 3 waves. But I knew going in that it would be 3 waves, so was not bothered about the fact. I was even less bothered once wave 1 arrived as the quality was every bit what they had promised and much better than the GW stuff I had previously spent money on. Even so, the difference in expected and actual delivery of wave 3 was 600 days. Currently RRT is 416 days late without me receiving a single model and without anything concrete on any of the models I pledged for. I can quite easily see it boosting by double that before I get anything.
It appears KS loves deadlines - he especially enjoys the whooshing sound they make as they pass. Presumably so he can capture it and play it back while flying his VT around the room!
If they had sent it via the scale model below, I suspect you get it sooner. Wow... just wow...
6 Foot Long (1/200 scale) ultimate buildup of the SLV-111 Daedalus complete with R/C, lighting, working hatch / ramp, cranes, elevator, sound effects and radars.
If this guy lived nearby, I'd have the motivation to actually clip some robotech off the sprue and build it.
warboss wrote: If he's a RRPG backer in the ROW, it should be tomorrow. *zing!*
I don't see anything HG or PB could send him a nasty C&D about as long as he doesn't start making and selling scratchbuild carriers.
You never know. The PB Forum mods killed Mike's posts that converted a bunch of stuff from Palladium Robotech RPG to Palladium Robotech RPG Tactics posted to the Palladium Robotech RPG forum.
Because copyright infringement, naturally. I find the guy's fanatical devotion to a project whose own creators are trying their best to drive into the dumpster to be pathetic in the extreme, but the guy has put more effort into supporting that (clearly doomed) endeavor than the entirety of the rest of the Palladium Books cult. Instead of appreciation he get gak on.
Merijeek wrote: You never know. The PB Forum mods killed Mike's posts that converted a bunch of stuff from Palladium Robotech RPG to Palladium Robotech RPG Tactics posted to the Palladium Robotech RPG forum.
Because copyright infringement, naturally. I find the guy's fanatical devotion to a project whose own creators are trying their best to drive into the dumpster to be pathetic in the extreme, but the guy has put more effort into supporting that (clearly doomed) endeavor than the entirety of the rest of the Palladium Books cult. Instead of appreciation he get gak on.
Maybe there will be a wakeup call for someone.
Mike's devotion for Robotech "the story" appears to run beyond the motivations of the controlling owners.
It certainly appears he is willing to fill the void of whatever PB or HG cannot be bothered to do with any urgency.
Well, Kevin would not like to share the lime-light when it comes to producing product for the fans so the being dumped on is to be expected.
All this is why I find it funny when people try to call me White Knight....I have the best interests for Tactics in mind. I will get all 3 generations and more one way or another regardless. People just can't understand that you can support RRT and not necessarily care about the PB/HG side of things. If Merijeek thinks that is pathetic I also think that it is pathetic to do all you can to tear down a product line you want to have because you hate the company doing everything to produce it. I see it just as wasteful and pathetic to love Robotech and do all you can to tear PB down and then say it is for the good of a product that will never be made in your lifetime once you tear down the meager forces behind it. I guess it is all about POV.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also have something in mind for the next 2 gens.
Mike1975 wrote: People just can't understand that you can support RRT and not necessarily care about the PB/HG side of things.
Unfortunately the world is not that black and white; supporting a thing made by a despicable company still allows that company, or at least TPTB running it, to continue doing whatever it is that makes them so hated in the first place. While some may not see certain kinds of support as contributing to if not enabling that kind of behavior, others quite clearly disagree.
Mike1975 wrote: If Merijeek thinks that is pathetic I also think that it is pathetic to do all you can to tear down a product line you want to have because you hate the company doing everything to produce it.
Is what people want actually being produced, or is only the name of what they want being slapped onto something else entirely.
Mike1975 wrote: I see it just as wasteful and pathetic to love Robotech and do all you can to tear PB down and then say it is for the good of a product that will never be made in your lifetime once you tear down the meager forces behind it. I guess it is all about POV.
It is just as possible that any one POV can be equally correct as another, or likewise equally wrong.
Talizvar wrote: You are so gung-ho that for us cup-half-empty types it hurts.
Mike1975 wrote: People just can't understand that you can support RRT and not necessarily care about the PB/HG side of things.
Unfortunately the world is not that black and white; supporting a thing made by a despicable company still allows that company, or at least TPTB running it, to continue doing whatever it is that makes them so hated in the first place.
While some may not see certain kinds of support as contributing to if not enabling that kind of behavior, others quite clearly disagree.
Mike1975 wrote: If Merijeek thinks that is pathetic I also think that it is pathetic to do all you can to tear down a product line you want to have because you hate the company doing everything to produce it.
Is what people want actually being produced, or is only the name of what they want being slapped onto something else entirely.
Mike1975 wrote: I see it just as wasteful and pathetic to love Robotech and do all you can to tear PB down and then say it is for the good of a product that will never be made in your lifetime once you tear down the meager forces behind it.
I guess it is all about POV.
It is just as possible that any one POV can be equally correct as another, or likewise equally wrong.
_
Yes, some may consider it enabling, they are welcome to that opinion. I want this product in my lifetime and believe that we are in an all or nothing situation.
Everyone had a vision of what they wanted or what we would get. Everyone saw through their own Rose colored glasses. I hoped for a bit less detail and half the pieces. Others wanted even more detail. This was a compromise between minis and models. I think the balance was too much on the "Highly Detailed and Poseable" side. The vision that was handed to use was always a blurry one and we chose to see what we wanted and then got upset when the vision did not match the reality.
POV is tricky, I could say the other POV is correct but then if it is opposite of mine I am also saying that mine is possibly incorrect. Let us just say that there are multiple points of view. If I am not criticized for mine I will not criticize that same person for theirs. I think trying to tear down the one chance we have is stupid just as much as supporting it openly and mindlessly is also stupid. I support with full knowledge that what influence I have is being used to steer the ship along the best course possible regardless of what the rest of the crew wants. Does that mean we will get to what I see as the destination? No. Does that mean I will be closer than I would be otherwise....I would hope so. So far the results are mixed BUT there have been results. Following the same analogy the crew will listen to people who will work with them and support them on some things and will just ignore things coming from the rest. That's just human nature.
Robotech Marines
- Not yet delayed to April. Will probably be delayed to (and past) April.
Robotech Rulebook
- Available now, limited quantities, only through the webstore. Not sure of the value of this, without the cards.
Robotech RPG Tactics
- "It is available in stores across the USA and Canada, and soon in Europe and Australia.", again ignoring the fact that no, it's available in Europe, Australia and other parts of RoW. But keep on keeping on with your head in the sand.
- "Hey, for those of you who would like to see the rules first, you can purchase the full color Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Rulebook directly from Palladium Books.". Because stating this literally a paragraph earlier, wasn't enough.
- "We also intend to make the rules available online.". Yeah, I'll believe that when I see it. And even on the slim chance they do, it's already a year or more too late.
RRT Europe
- If you haven't updated your address, it's YOUR fault. Not theirs. So don't blame them.
RRT Australia and ROW
- Australia, see RRT Europe re address. Your stuff should be arriving in three weeks.
- ROW, see RRT Europe re address. Otherwise, PB don't acknowledge that you exist. The fact that it's still in "get your address in" does seem to confirm you guys haven't even had the packages sent yet. So, lucky you.
- Indemnity, again, if you haven't updated your address, it's not on them, and you're responsible for all costs. ALL COSTS! NOT OUR FAULT!
Robotech Adepticon
- "We’ve been told the more people who register, the bigger the event will become.". My favorite 'duh' quote. Because if you need to be told the more people register, the bigger it becomes, then you're a five year old.
- They then cap it off at the end of the segment with "Slots are limited!". Seriously, I can't... I don't... Ack.
DriveThruRPG.com
- "Palladium continues to provide FREE support to Robotech® RPG Tactics™ with supplemental material.". Gee, given that nearly everything there (the color templates excepted), is stuff that should have been provided IN THE BOX. So, thanks for not charging for that. You're a peach.
Robotech RPG Tactics Wave 2
- And for Wave 2 fans, we've got feth all for you! Like literally, the only mention of Wave 2 is "Plus Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave One and Wave Two releases worldwide. And there are still some secret projects and licenses yet to be revealed." in the "Other titles for 2015 and beyond" section. I can understand not doing so if they're planning a big weekend update on the KS (they've been criticized about doing the KS stuff last), but if they were, they could at LEAST have put in a "And we'll have Wave 2 information in our Kickstarter Update!". Their hesitancy to actually SHOW progress on Wave 2 is a little concerning, and no, a verbal assurance that yes, progress is being made, at this point in their credibility, isn't going to cut it.
Add in the usual promotion of the Open Day, and a release schedule that based on past performance is at best unlikely, and you've got yourself a Weekly Update.
As I've noted elsewhere, buy the rule book? I've already given away (or promised away) 2 of the 3 they sent me. And why pay $20 from them when one can order the whole core box for $50-75 depending on the sales.
Yes, granted I'm comparing MSRP versus online shops known for steep discounts, but I don't feel it's entirely an apples to oranges situation.
Seems like a strange price point for something a niche community probably already has too many of.
Morgan Vening wrote: Robotech RPG Tactics
- "It is available in stores across the USA and Canada, and soon in Europe and Australia.", again ignoring the fact that no, it's available in Europe, Australia and other parts of RoW. But keep on keeping on with your head in the sand.
Funny that. Seems like I've been fiddling with an imaginary Robotech RPG Tactics destroids box, seeing as I seem to have dreamt buying it from Wayland Games and receiving it yesterday, before their slow boat from the USA even gets to the UK, nevermind start shipping pledges.
So evidently, the following pics (not very good ones, taken from a cellphone) and impressions are all product of my overeager imagination, Take it as such.
First imaginary impression: hm, these sprues are freaking tiny. Both regarding the pieces (so, so many pieces) and the actual size of the whole sprue.
Not very packed, compared with GW's stuff, but well, GW they ain't. The general casting quality and amount of detail of the two sprues is quite telling, too.
After assembling a couple of the suckers, I can certainly say that these little guys are very, very fiddly, and quite a bit more fiddly than they need to be. The end size is decent enough, I guess, but not all that big when compared with comparable Battletech stuff. Took some comparison pics with some minis I had lying around, with both of the designs, to gauge real size.
Defender X
With a Mantic enforcer:
With GW stuff (LotR orc, first space marine ever, regular space marine, chaos raptor, dark eldar, warrior priest)
(You'll notice, btw, that basically every other mini save probably the orc sports more detail in pretty much every dimension with a whole lot less parts count).
Infinity minis (bounty hunter, new Hac Tao):
Now comparisons with the crappy Btech minis from the 25th anniversary starter (remember: these are crap; really crappy plastic, which didn't fill the mould, and single part):
With one of the hard plastic, good quality multipart Clan 'mechs from that same box (in this particular case the comparison hurts):
With the two multipart (but very few parts, and slottable) 'mechs from the new Btech starter:
With a couple of Heavy Gears:
And a (small) groupshot:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now the Tomahawk, same deal:
Size-wise, the Tomahawk is a smigde bigger than the Defender, and it looks beter (the Defender's guns look kinda weird).
Quality/detail... hm. They have waaaay more parts than they really need to have, if only they fething knew what they were doing. The kind of detail that the assembled minis have doesn't, in any way, form or planet, needs the kind of sprue separation done here.
As to the actual details, there's a very fine line between too much detail and too little detail, and between something designed as a playing piece and something designed as a show model, and Palladium seems to have... failed in every point. Which is something I really didn't feel possible, but there it is.
These minis are too detailed for something designed as a playing piece first and foremost, but at the same time the detail there is is simply too few for a show model. The accuracy of the detail there is is iffy at best, inexistent in a lot of places, and in others the sculptor has basically done whatever the hell they wanted.
The sprue separation and layout, combined with the part numbers would seem to indicate a mini designed for show instead of a mini designed for a game with massed armies, but not only IS indeed designed for a game of massed battles... they don't even replicate faithfully the lineart. Gah. This is literally, the worst of both worlds.
Ah, well, it is what it is. The decals sprue is superb, so there's that. And you can make them look decent, if you take the time to do it and to fix the designs' mistakes. Or you can preted to do it, like me
The funny (for some values of funny, of course) thing? I spent much more time assembling the mini and making the seams somewhat presentable than actually painting.
Thanks for the detailed rundown. In other Robotech news, I listened to a podcast interview (sorry, don't have the link but you can google it) from Templecon a week or two ago where Ninja Division attended. The interview was about 15-20 minutes and they talked in length about all their games like SDE, the kickstarted version of SDE from last year, and upcoming stuff for Relic Knights. Anyone care to guess how much they mentioned regarding Robotech wave 2? Hint: It's one less sentance than Palladium does in their weekly update.
Oh, don't get me wrong. They're frigging small. That yellow triangle must be 2mm high, tops.
They're just good quality.
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warboss wrote: Thanks for the detailed rundown. In other Robotech news, I listened to a podcast interview (sorry, don't have the link but you can google it) from Templecon a week or two ago where Ninja Division attended. The interview was about 15-20 minutes and they talked in length about all their games like SDE, the kickstarted version of SDE from last year, and upcoming stuff for Relic Knights. Anyone care to guess how much they mentioned regarding Robotech wave 2? Hint: It's one less sentance than Palladium does in their weekly update.
I suspect that the only upcoming possible chance for news about wave 2 would be at Adepticon if palladium had the 3d prints of the new minis on show; barring that, the next opportunity would be GAMA 2015 sometime in the spring. What I realistically expect is that Palladium will instead show the Wave 2 3D prints they got back in Nov/Dec 2013 and put on mismatched bases for GAMA a few months later at Adepticon and leave our mouths watering for even the tiniest morsel of real news beyond just platitudes.
Joyboozer wrote: Man, I wish battletech would just feth right off to its own thread!
Ah but the offering of the "unseen" by Robotech is what also drives some of the sales.
It is also the game people turned to when Robotech had nothing since HG just sat on the license.
Mike1975 wrote: I have the Battlemaster and the Mad Cat....that have one pose.....well the Battlemaster you can angle the arms but that is it.
Actually the Mad Cat is at least as poseable as any of the Destroids I've assembled so far, if not more (the torso tilts, the amrs and legs too...). It's also 6 pieces, instead of 18.
As to the Battlemaster, well...
I did that without even glueing it, so I'd say on par with the destroids (quite a bit better than the Spartan, actually, for the pieces). Only it's 5 pieces. And you don't need to glue it.
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Joyboozer wrote: Man, I wish battletech would just feth right off to its own thread!
Man, I wish I had my pledge instead of having to make do with Battletech minis!
Seriously now, I'd say that comparing the minis is quite apropos myself, taking into account that, well, they have sold them too.
Albertorius wrote: I did that without even glueing it, so I'd say on par with the destroids (quite a bit better than the Spartan, actually, for the pieces). Only it's 5 pieces. And you don't need to glue it.
Yup. While the Destroids have more options, with the exception of the torso twist and the smaller base size, it's similarly posable from what you've shown. There's some mold lines that'd need clearing up, and some minor deformities, but that's nothing compared to the work needed to get a RRT miniature ready for play. Speaking for myself, it'd have been a small price to pay to have it playable out of the box, and I'd have probably kept my pledges.
Basically, KevCo had the choice of making showpiece model kits, or gaming pieces, and split the difference, satisfying neither camp. Sure, there are bound to be some people happy with the current showing (though most positive reviews have been "well, it's not THAT bad", which isn't a glowing recommendation), but I doubt there would be many that wouldn't be happier with either more ease, or more detail. I think they picked the point that was least satisfactory to nearly everyone.
That gif would blow palladiums collective half brain, "oh my, someone call china and see if we can get moving models? Only see if they have a cheaper version"
Mike1975 wrote: I have the Battlemaster and the Mad Cat....that have one pose.....well the Battlemaster you can angle the arms but that is it.
Actually the Mad Cat is at least as poseable as any of the Destroids I've assembled so far, if not more (the torso tilts, the amrs and legs too...). It's also 6 pieces, instead of 18.
As to the Battlemaster, well...
I did that without even glueing it, so I'd say on par with the destroids (quite a bit better than the Spartan, actually, for the pieces). Only it's 5 pieces. And you don't need to glue it.
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Joyboozer wrote: Man, I wish battletech would just feth right off to its own thread!
Man, I wish I had my pledge instead of having to make do with Battletech minis!
Seriously now, I'd say that comparing the minis is quite apropos myself, taking into account that, well, they have sold them too.
I wish they were more like BT but you can't honestly try to tell me that that stiff arm legs and arm poses compares to what we have.....any I have one so yes I understand that they are like 6 pieces. Somthing like 10-12 and bendable legs and arms are what would have been ideal.
And yes I have assembled all my destroids myself. So while I applaud the attempt...minis like that would not have enough poseability to make much difference. Battletech and RRT are VERY different. I have a full Regiment of BT minis. You don't need to have more than a couple of the same mini on the table. With RRT you MUST have several of each and that level of poseability would make the table really boring and sad. BT is made for variety, RRT is not. Imagine a Star League Battallion of all the same mech.....
Just as an aside, warmachine has like 3 poses per trooper model. And they're all monopose. And yet, very few people would call it really boring or sad on the table
Sining wrote: Just as an aside, warmachine has like 3 poses per trooper model. And they're all monopose. And yet, very few people would call it really boring or sad on the table
And how many do you typically use on the table at a time when you play? I've seen a few games. Never more than like 20 models per side if I remember right.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus they have a greater variety of units to work with.....
Depends how you want to build your army. Khador and Cryx can go very infantry heavy, ranging from 30-40 models on the table or you can have as few as 7
So I've played with Zentraedi and have had 40+ units just for them on the table. When you have 5-6 units to choose from and most of them Pods, you need to at least try to pose them differently. Running with one leg forward or the other. Standing, Jumping, etc. Those are some of the least poseable but it works fairly well.
With the UEDF you have basically 5 options now. Veritechs or destroids. A VF-1A is basically the same as a VF-1J. So having those in different poses is much more important. Where things fail is with fighters. The only variation is paint and missiles. I've tried to vary stand heights too. I really wish the wings could have swept. It would have added a lot to the game.
I would think that with 40 models on table, the more worrying part would be keeping track of which is damaged and by how much. At least with wmh or wh40k, most models only have 1hp so if they're damaged, off the table they go
Naw, with the Squadron cards that is not a hard part to do and does not take much time, just make sure you know which models are which. I made that mistake my first game.
Is there a sticker or something that we can use dry erase on? I think if I could find something that works with dry erase markers to stick on the little stand up portion of the base, I could write a designation on each, and change as necessary.
megatrons2nd wrote: Is there a sticker or something that we can use dry erase on? I think if I could find something that works with dry erase markers to stick on the little stand up portion of the base, I could write a designation on each, and change as necessary.
I bought some small stickers at the local hobby shop with some letters and numbers on them
Mike, how DO you keep track of all those different battlepod hit points? I'm guessing numbers on the pod base somewhere and on the cards?
Coming from playing mostly 40K, I was aghast when I saw all the hit points for the various units and weapon damage. However, having played some (digital) Warmachine and remembering battletech, it doesn't seem quite so bad. Though I still think if they had done it like Regult = 1 wound, it would have been much better.
Considering the number of people I've seen who seem to be embracing intentional uniformity between their figures, the desire to have variety definitely isn't universal.
And with like 2 different leg stances on the Battlepods, it's not like we're getting much more variety out of them than the above dancing Battlemaster. Hell I went as far as intentionally using the 'wrong' leg pairings just to get a bit more variety without having to hack them apart.
Would people have complained if we'd had similar "poseability"? Probably, but as noted many times, with this many people there will *always* be bitching.
But at least with low parts counts the game could have been playable within a much shorter timeframe for most folks, and considering the apparently millions of different Robotech/Macross models out there, attempting to split the difference between ultra detail (sacrificing user friendliness) and playability (ease of assembly and resilience) they seem to have just ended up somewhat annoying both sides.
As I've said since "Spartangate" early last year (ye gods it was a full year ago...), at this size and from the usual table distance, the need for OMG ULTRA DETAIL has been a fools errand. I would've happily accepted 20% less detail for 50% fewer parts, or whatever that split might've been.
And yes, it is a moot point now.
I, for one, am looking forward to 50+ piece Super VT's, because of DETAIL and MOUTH WATERING and JAZZ HANDS.
:-D
@Megatron: I believe the little tab on the back is supposed to have a number or something on it to denote the unit, and somebody even found little tags from a heat-shrink wrapping kit for wiring that apparently are the perfect size for them. I'm thinking a combination of colours dot/tag and number to denote supports or full squads would be reasonable, as that'd give a ton of combinations.
At least in theory. My model count remains at 12 and with nobody else in my group building anything or wishing to devote our now rare (due to scheduling) games days to RRT, I can't foresee playing it, well, ever.
It's something I suppose I could change if I wanted to, but I'd rather spend my downtime perusing forums or catching up on shows or playing my Hardcore Season 2 Witch Doctor in Diablo 3 than clipping, trimming and gluing those itty bitty little pieces for a game my friends don't want to play (and I can't be arsed to build for it's own sake), and if 2+ of us are together, then Shadows of Brimstone is hitting the table and we're going mining for treasure! Or X-Wing. Or Eldritch Horror. Or Netrunner. Or X-Com. Or Mansions of Madness. Or Fortune and Glory. Or Merchants and Marauders. Or Xia. Or Cards Against Humanity. Etc. Etc. Etc.
A shame. Had they actually had wave one out in 2013 I could have seen my friends and I being neck deep in figures and games by now. Oh well.
Mike1975 wrote: I wish they were more like BT but you can't honestly try to tell me that that stiff arm legs and arm poses compares to what we have.....any I have one so yes I understand that they are like 6 pieces. Somthing like 10-12 and bendable legs and arms are what would have been ideal.
Yes, because this guy is so much better (which is the one I was comparing with):
For one I needed a whole minute to cut up from the sprue and to assemble (didn't even need glue). For another I needed about 45 minutes of cutting, glueing and swearing. I'm not sure the work is worth it, for the net gain.
As I said, Palladium's way to do the sprues is, literally, the worst possible. It is too fiddly, too time-consuming, not user friendly at all. And to top it all, the net gaing for your efforts is a detail/quality/poseability level worthy of Games Workshop plastic miniatures, circa 1985 (which, btw, had about a third of the pieces).
So no, not ideal, no. [/understatement]
And yes I have assembled all my destroids myself. So while I applaud the attempt...minis like that would not have enough poseability to make much difference. Battletech and RRT are VERY different. I have a full Regiment of BT minis. You don't need to have more than a couple of the same mini on the table. With RRT you MUST have several of each and that level of poseability would make the table really boring and sad. BT is made for variety, RRT is not. Imagine a Star League Battallion of all the same mech.....
False analogy. Battletech has hundreds of different mech designs, and even if the individual minis aren't usually very poseable (because they're not intended to be), it's very rare to have multiples of the same 'mech in a game. So usually you will literally have one special mini for every unit in the game, even at regimental level, with the possible exception of tanks and infantry, if you use them.
OTOH, RRT right now have a grand total of 4 produced minis for one side and... what, five and one with different head options for the other. And it's a game that requires lots of minis, to booth. So I dare to say you'll be seeing a lot more repetition in one than in the other, because the poseability of the RRT minis, when you get down to it and compare the poseability options with the parts level... it's just not there. Too much work for too little gain. And the retail prices for the metal Btech minis are not really all that higher than the plastic RRT ones.
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Forar wrote: @Megatron: I believe the little tab on the back is supposed to have a number or something on it to denote the unit, and somebody even found little tags from a heat-shrink wrapping kit for wiring that apparently are the perfect size for them. I'm thinking a combination of colours dot/tag and number to denote supports or full squads would be reasonable, as that'd give a ton of combinations.
Actually, I think that the little tab is to pick up the mini from the base.
I mean, you can't actually pick it up from any other part of the base (too thin) without touching the mini...
Stormonu wrote: Mike, how DO you keep track of all those different battlepod hit points? I'm guessing numbers on the pod base somewhere and on the cards?
Coming from playing mostly 40K, I was aghast when I saw all the hit points for the various units and weapon damage. However, having played some (digital) Warmachine and remembering battletech, it doesn't seem quite so bad. Though I still think if they had done it like Regult = 1 wound, it would have been much better.
Mike1975 wrote: I wish they were more like BT but you can't honestly try to tell me that that stiff arm legs and arm poses compares to what we have.....any I have one so yes I understand that they are like 6 pieces. Somthing like 10-12 and bendable legs and arms are what would have been ideal.
Yes, because this guy is so much better (which is the one I was comparing with):
For one I needed a whole minute to cut up from the sprue and to assemble (didn't even need glue). For another I needed about 45 minutes of cutting, glueing and swearing. I'm not sure the work is worth it, for the net gain.
As I said, Palladium's way to do the sprues is, literally, the worst possible. It is too fiddly, too time-consuming, not user friendly at all. And to top it all, the net gaing for your efforts is a detail/quality/poseability level worthy of Games Workshop plastic miniatures, circa 1985 (which, btw, had about a third of the pieces).
So no, not ideal, no. [/understatement]
And yes I have assembled all my destroids myself. So while I applaud the attempt...minis like that would not have enough poseability to make much difference. Battletech and RRT are VERY different. I have a full Regiment of BT minis. You don't need to have more than a couple of the same mini on the table. With RRT you MUST have several of each and that level of poseability would make the table really boring and sad. BT is made for variety, RRT is not. Imagine a Star League Battallion of all the same mech.....
False analogy. Battletech has hundreds of different mech designs, and even if the individual minis aren't usually very poseable (because they're not intended to be), it's very rare to have multiples of the same 'mech in a game. So usually you will literally have one special mini for every unit in the game, even at regimental level, with the possible exception of tanks and infantry, if you use them.
OTOH, RRT right now have a grand total of 4 produced minis for one side and... what, five and one with different head options for the other. And it's a game that requires lots of minis, to booth. So I dare to say you'll be seeing a lot more repetition in one than in the other, because the poseability of the RRT minis, when you get down to it and compare the poseability options with the parts level... it's just not there. Too much work for too little gain. And the retail prices for the metal Btech minis are not really all that higher than the plastic RRT ones.
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Forar wrote: @Megatron: I believe the little tab on the back is supposed to have a number or something on it to denote the unit, and somebody even found little tags from a heat-shrink wrapping kit for wiring that apparently are the perfect size for them. I'm thinking a combination of colours dot/tag and number to denote supports or full squads would be reasonable, as that'd give a ton of combinations.
Actually, I think that the little tab is to pick up the mini from the base.
I mean, you can't actually pick it up from any other part of the base (too thin) without touching the mini...
You basically had the exact same point that I did. You are not meant to have a large number of the same minis in Battletech so being poseable in not a priority but with RRT you use a large number of the same minis. ALSO keep in mind that Squadron Organizations force you to use the same minis in squadrons. So you can argue parts/poseability, I'm with you there, I wanted less parts, but you cannot argue that poseability with RRT is not required. Like I said, having a full battalion of one unit gets dull quick.
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Swabby wrote: Less parts does not automatically equal less detail. This is often repeateded and totally false.
We could have had RRT minis with half the parts count with more detail on the model than what we recieved.
It's a balance of parts, detail, and pose and I think that ND did a poor job of it. ND was the champion and had their name out there on this one. Some may argue that PB and HG pushed them too it. It may well be true. But they also do not have minis experience or knowledge. ND does. While the blame is shared I still give ND the Lion's share on this.
You may not have required poseability in Battletech, but I did.
Having 12 Victors on the shelf meant that I needed different poses for them to not be boring. Ditto the 7 Marauders, lots of Warhammers, literally 2 dozen Archers... And from what I'm seeing, even many of the old pewter mechs were more poseable - or as poseable - as RRT minis.
I often played multiple of a single mech type when we played, even at Lance level. Redundancy has always been a good idea. But that's getting off topic.
With UEDF units my issue is all the main parts are hollow.
I can still hack them up for posing but pinning is problematic without filling.
Cutting they are also delicate, I suppose it is easier because of less material but solid limbs would have been preferred.
For the destroids I pretty much went stock, I only assembled 4 of each type so the options are sufficient to keep them different enough.
The Veritech's however I mainly went nuts on hacking up the legs in various ways to try to keep both feet on the ground one way or another with some customization.
The Zents, what to say.
The pods are basically expendable "ammo" so I would not try too much to make them look heroic.
Cutting the legs is unthinkable to me because they just are too smooth to do much with (really thin too).
Good thing the 3 sets of two LH/RH legs can be mixed creatively enough to give variety.
Moving the various guns around also varies them a fair bit.
Too bad the Glaug's do not lend themselves to posing or customization: they are the heroes of the Zent's so I think it will only be conveyed with paint and decals.
I am going to try to hold some games around 300pts with 3 players per side each in charge of a unit and see how that goes (3 units per side).
UEDF
I have a vanilla Veritech squad.
Veritech with the multiple missile pods and nose guns.
Destroid Tomahawk squad with command upgrade.
Zents
2X Scout squads with two missile pods attached.
Normal battle group.
I was debating to make it a convoy scenario.
3 more pods to put together and it is all done for assembly (plus I had the other 3 destroid squads assembled).
I have found a couple creative ways to pose the legs to get variety, for some reason I dread the leg positioning more than anything else with these guys.
Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?
Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened
Sining wrote: Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?
Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened
I was under that impression as well. The Zentradi stuff is real concise but the UEDF is crummy for parts count. The Zentradi still have fiddly bits however, the recon pod and the glaug have some tiny instant break pieces.
Sining wrote: Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?
Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened
That's a lot of assumptions there when you have no knowledge how and what happened between UEDF and Zen. They all have ND on them just the same so my point is perfectly valid. Also we know both were in simultaneous development and say sprues of both at the same time. We did not see only Zen sprues and then later UEDF ones. So I'd be interested to see what evidence you have to the contrary other than heresay.
I've never said that the zen pods were previewed first. I also have no proof to the other that both were designed at the same time. Maybe shown at the same time but designing at the same time in the sense that when the zen pod goes up to 10% completed, the UEDF is also 10%ish completed? Instead of just doing the zen pod to 100%, doing the UEDF and then previewing both? I have no evidence that isn't what happened. Do you?
Also, like I said there must be reasons why they went from the zen pod design to the UEDF one. Who knows what these reasons might be. Certainly, some people suspect it to be the work of certain people notorious in the industry for micromanagement. But I suppose you can just say maybe the sculptor had an off day. Or week.
More importantly, I've also heard the UEDF sprues are very similar to the 1980s nichimo sprues, which if true kind of supports one theory.
Sining wrote: I've never said that the zen pods were previewed first. I also have no proof to the other that both were designed at the same time. Maybe shown at the same time but designing at the same time in the sense that when the zen pod goes up to 10% completed, the UEDF is also 10%ish completed? Instead of just doing the zen pod to 100%, doing the UEDF and then previewing both? I have no evidence that isn't what happened. Do you?
Also, like I said there must be reasons why they went from the zen pod design to the UEDF one. Who knows what these reasons might be. Certainly, some people suspect it to be the work of certain people notorious in the industry for micromanagement. But I suppose you can just say maybe the sculptor had an off day. Or week.
More importantly, I've also heard the UEDF sprues are very similar to the 1980s nichimo sprues, which if true kind of supports one theory.
So you are saying that nobody has proof one way or the other just pure conjecture. There is even only conjecture on whether their was some evil and dastardly plan in the reason and rhyme behind choosing the minis that would be produced in the greatest quantity first over minis that would be produced in smaller numbers....There is also only conjecture that the same dastardly and evil plan was prepared and thought out from day one and that it was purposefully planned from day one to produce Zen miniatures first because somehow that would throw 5000+ people off the scent that the dastardly plan existed to purposefully and maliciously make tiny plastic models/miniatures that could save a few bucks by making them in the cheapest way possible. Also the fact that a few of the Zen miniatures were produced first, the ones that would be produced in the largest quantities, and then the Veritechs, the ones that would be produced in the next largest quantity were designed in some specific order to fulfill the dastardly plan. Yeah...I see your point....makes perfect sense. I apologize for questioning it.
I think the nichimo actually has fewer bits. But still everything down the center.
Also, I have no idea why there needs to be a dastardly plan. Things changed cause of 'reasons'. There's no need to make up a strawman with dastardly plans.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I never said they were produced in the cheapest way possible. I think in someone's mind, everyone has been merged into this one mythical anti-PB, anti-RRT, anti-HG figure that has the traits of every single person who's expressed unhappiness with them before.
In other words, I think you're confusing me for Rick -_-
Sining wrote: Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?
Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened
That's a lot of assumptions there when you have no knowledge how and what happened between UEDF and Zen. They all have ND on them just the same so my point is perfectly valid. Also we know both were in simultaneous development and say sprues of both at the same time. We did not see only Zen sprues and then later UEDF ones. So I'd be interested to see what evidence you have to the contrary other than heresay.
That's a bit harsh, Mike. Sining was pretty clear it was opinion (use of "seem"). And asking for evidence when there's no evidence to support it being more ND's fault, even though you asserted that in a similar opine, is wrong. We're never going to know for sure who's fault it was. And by no means do I think Ninja Division are completely blameless in this. There are two points of conjecture that do make it seem more like it was PB's (or Harmony Gold) fault for the parts counts.
The first, is that PB are ultimately responsible for the decision. If they weren't happy with it, and had even a basic knowledge of what was out there already, then it's on KevCo to make sure it's done properly. Sure, they had to satisfy HG's specific details, but they signed off on these.
The second, is that ND aren't known for doing this. On stuff like Super Dungeon Explore, their parts counts are minimalist. The Relic Knights stuff is a little more complicated, but looks like nothing compared with the Robotech figures.
From an outsider, looking at the bodies of work of Ninja Division in miniature design on one side, and PB's micromanagement and HG's purist vision nature on the other (which PB have even alluded to), I think it's hard to ask them to believe that ND went so off character for no reason other than "Cause screw PB, that's why". There may be other reasons (design/manufacturing limitations of the chosen factory, deadline issues to get it done, any number of undisclosed reasons), but in the end, as mentioned in the first point, it's irrelevant. PB signed off on these things (and were effusive with their praise, don't forget) and consistently said "quality over time", so it's on them.
JohnHwangDD wrote: SDE minis are PVC, not hard styrene, so that helps get the part count down because minor undercuts are possible.
As other companies demonstrate time and again (for example, Dreamforge, to name a company that also started doing plastic miniatures from a KS and without any previous work on the field), you can do a lot more. It's just more expensive.
As for what does or doesn't allow a plastic sprue... just go take a look at a Gunpla kit sometime, and get back to us then
I have no idea how much DFG paid for their stuff but I can attest their HIPs producer; WGF, is top-notch. They do malifaux which has some of the most beautiful (albeit monopose) miniatures I've seen.
Also, with regards to DFG, it may be just me but I find they have too many bits also -_- I was assembling the Valkir assault troops I got and compared them to the mantic peacekeepers, and basically I prefer assembling the peacekeepers over the assault troops. They're like 5 pieces (arm arm body leg leg head) vs 10 or so for the assault (arm arm body leg leg waist head skirting 1 skirting 2 shoulderpad 1 shoulderpad2 etc) Good quality but I've got big clumsy fingers and trying to glue them at times was testing my patience.
But DFGs stuff is truly multi-pose. Yes Mark could have gotten away with a much reduced parts count, but at the cost of giving us all another manufacturer of 'cookie-cutter' armies.
PB's problem is that they seem (Again, I don't have minis in hand, I can only go by what has been said here.) to have gone overboard on the parts count for the posability of what they have delivered (or at least, partly delivered.)
Once tooling costs are out of the way, the biggest cost in manufacturing plastic models is the 'conversion' cost. The cost of converting the plastic pellets into the shape that you want. This is set mainly by the cycle time - the time it takes to produce 1 moulding, and the machine size. Injection machines are rated in tonnes, not the weight of the machine, but the compressive force it can exert. Higher rated machines can mould larger frames without flash, which is caused when the injection pressure exceeds the clamping pressure.
What this boils down to is that tightly packed frames can use a physically smaller machine, but may still need to be run on a larger machine due to the pressure required. Larger frames need longer cycle times to ensure that the plastic has completely filled the frame before it cools enough to stop further movement. If it cools too quickly, you get sink marks and short shots which should be rejected.
This increasing scrap rate also impacts the costs. And I doubt that PB understood any of this, making it quite believeable that they underestimated how much it would cost them to get this product to market.
It is also quite possible that in their obsession to get this done as cheaply as possible, they have split so many parts to get round undercuts and things like barrels, that the conversion costs are more than if they had gone the route of lowering the parts count and using 'slide-core' tooling to make it work. This sort of tooling is more expensive to manufacture because of the moving parts in the mould - and of course it takes more money to get it designed, too. But the subsequent moulding could have been better quality and faster to run, which would have saved some money there and pleased more of the backers ...who knows.
It's amazing how many of us ROW backers dont have minis in hand. While they're in shops. Here.
I think the biggest cost that PB didn't foresee for this KS is probably shipping. Just how much did USPS increase by since 2013? I know Miniature market likes to try and charge me 40-60USD for shipping a semi-small box to Singapore. And PB has to do it 2x.
Yeah, but that's airmail and individual, PB went with the superior option of slow boat to an unnamed distributor, coincidentally being the much cheaper option. A lot of options they choose are also cheaper by coincidence. What strange luck they have.
Joyboozer wrote: Yeah, but that's airmail and individual, PB went with the superior option of slow boat to an unnamed distributor, coincidentally being the much cheaper option. A lot of options they choose are also cheaper by coincidence. What strange luck they have.
Joyboozer wrote: Yeah, but that's airmail and individual, PB went with the superior option of slow boat to an unnamed distributor, coincidentally being the much cheaper option. A lot of options they choose are also cheaper by coincidence. What strange luck they have.
Hah, I have no distributor here. Also, don't you guys have to import taxes on your stuff when it arrives?
Sining wrote: Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?
Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened
That's a lot of assumptions there when you have no knowledge how and what happened between UEDF and Zen. They all have ND on them just the same so my point is perfectly valid. Also we know both were in simultaneous development and say sprues of both at the same time. We did not see only Zen sprues and then later UEDF ones. So I'd be interested to see what evidence you have to the contrary other than heresay.
That's a bit harsh, Mike. Sining was pretty clear it was opinion (use of "seem"). And asking for evidence when there's no evidence to support it being more ND's fault, even though you asserted that in a similar opine, is wrong. We're never going to know for sure who's fault it was. And by no means do I think Ninja Division are completely blameless in this. There are two points of conjecture that do make it seem more like it was PB's (or Harmony Gold) fault for the parts counts.
The first, is that PB are ultimately responsible for the decision. If they weren't happy with it, and had even a basic knowledge of what was out there already, then it's on KevCo to make sure it's done properly. Sure, they had to satisfy HG's specific details, but they signed off on these.
The second, is that ND aren't known for doing this. On stuff like Super Dungeon Explore, their parts counts are minimalist. The Relic Knights stuff is a little more complicated, but looks like nothing compared with the Robotech figures.
From an outsider, looking at the bodies of work of Ninja Division in miniature design on one side, and PB's micromanagement and HG's purist vision nature on the other (which PB have even alluded to), I think it's hard to ask them to believe that ND went so off character for no reason other than "Cause screw PB, that's why". There may be other reasons (design/manufacturing limitations of the chosen factory, deadline issues to get it done, any number of undisclosed reasons), but in the end, as mentioned in the first point, it's irrelevant. PB signed off on these things (and were effusive with their praise, don't forget) and consistently said "quality over time", so it's on them.
I don't think I was harsh at all honestly. I pointed out that what we all have IS indeed pure conjecture and that can be just as dangerous as the truth since conjecture can become truth in the mind of someone if it fits what they perceive as the facts.
I also pointed out that there was a VERY good reason to start on the Battlepods and Artillery Pods. The Battlepods would be by far the most numerous mini created and the Artillery Pods were a quick step away with them just having the artillery for the top. Then they moved on to the Veritechs, the next largest batch. When you look at things Common Sense is usually more effective than pointing the finger and proscribe ill intents on the creators of a product. Their is also ample evidence as shown that the products were worked on simultaneously. Although they may have been done by 2 different individuals with 2 different personal methodologies. It is entirely possible that ND has more than one sculptor and each uses his own methods to design the end product. As far as ND going off character....that can be argued since we have no knowledge.
Whether they did or did not and were or were not pushed to do so that fact that they DID so knowing the results and consequences and knowing their name would be on the product speaks more to their character than anything if true. They were the experts and had their name on it. There is no strawman here. There is simple what we know and what we do not. I think it likely as Conrad Turner stated, PB asked ND to take a route and without the proper experience did not understand what the outcome and final destination would be.
Sining wrote: It's amazing how many of us ROW backers dont have minis in hand. While they're in shops. Here.
No they aren't, that's not possible, and if it is then those stores are breaking 'street date', they should be reported and truly the wrath of Palladium for stores daring to order and sell their stuff will be terrifying to behold. I'd recommend retreating to a safe distance... like, orbit. It will be Mega-Damage Hellfire(tm)(c)(r), and you won't want to be on the same planetary mass when it hits.
Joyboozer wrote: Yeah, but that's airmail and individual, PB went with the superior option of slow boat to an unnamed distributor, coincidentally being the much cheaper option. A lot of options they choose are also cheaper by coincidence. What strange luck they have.
Hah, I have no distributor here. Also, don't you guys have to import taxes on your stuff when it arrives?
Europe? Yes. Australia? Not unless the shipment's value is... a lot, don't remember how much.
Sining wrote: Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?
Now being a lowly ROW backer, I haven't received my stuff yet so I can't say without the sprues in hand but weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others? That seems to indicate someone knew what they were doing until 'reasons' happened
That's a lot of assumptions there when you have no knowledge how and what happened between UEDF and Zen. They all have ND on them just the same so my point is perfectly valid. Also we know both were in simultaneous development and say sprues of both at the same time. We did not see only Zen sprues and then later UEDF ones. So I'd be interested to see what evidence you have to the contrary other than heresay.
That's a bit harsh, Mike. Sining was pretty clear it was opinion (use of "seem"). And asking for evidence when there's no evidence to support it being more ND's fault, even though you asserted that in a similar opine, is wrong. We're never going to know for sure who's fault it was. And by no means do I think Ninja Division are completely blameless in this. There are two points of conjecture that do make it seem more like it was PB's (or Harmony Gold) fault for the parts counts.
The first, is that PB are ultimately responsible for the decision. If they weren't happy with it, and had even a basic knowledge of what was out there already, then it's on KevCo to make sure it's done properly. Sure, they had to satisfy HG's specific details, but they signed off on these.
The second, is that ND aren't known for doing this. On stuff like Super Dungeon Explore, their parts counts are minimalist. The Relic Knights stuff is a little more complicated, but looks like nothing compared with the Robotech figures.
From an outsider, looking at the bodies of work of Ninja Division in miniature design on one side, and PB's micromanagement and HG's purist vision nature on the other (which PB have even alluded to), I think it's hard to ask them to believe that ND went so off character for no reason other than "Cause screw PB, that's why". There may be other reasons (design/manufacturing limitations of the chosen factory, deadline issues to get it done, any number of undisclosed reasons), but in the end, as mentioned in the first point, it's irrelevant. PB signed off on these things (and were effusive with their praise, don't forget) and consistently said "quality over time", so it's on them.
I don't think I was harsh at all honestly. I pointed out that what we all have IS indeed pure conjecture and that can be just as dangerous as the truth since conjecture can become truth in the mind of someone if it fits what they perceive as the facts.
I also pointed out that there was a VERY good reason to start on the Battlepods and Artillery Pods. The Battlepods would be by far the most numerous mini created and the Artillery Pods were a quick step away with them just having the artillery for the top. Then they moved on to the Veritechs, the next largest batch. When you look at things Common Sense is usually more effective than pointing the finger and proscribe ill intents on the creators of a product. Their is also ample evidence as shown that the products were worked on simultaneously. Although they may have been done by 2 different individuals with 2 different personal methodologies. It is entirely possible that ND has more than one sculptor and each uses his own methods to design the end product. As far as ND going off character....that can be argued since we have no knowledge.
Whether they did or did not and were or were not pushed to do so that fact that they DID so knowing the results and consequences and knowing their name would be on the product speaks more to their character than anything if true. They were the experts and had their name on it. There is no strawman here. There is simple what we know and what we do not. I think it likely as Conrad Turner stated, PB asked ND to take a route and without the proper experience did not understand what the outcome and final destination would be.
I notice how there's nothing here about how you mistook me for Rick who was the one who said PB made the sprues that way to cut cost. And you know, not me.
In other words, Spartacus!
Also doesn't PB also have their name on this by that logic? And isn't PB the one pushing all sales of it and the one overall in charge of it, again by that same logic?
Definitely the PM has responsibility, I never said they did not. What I did say was that I attributed that Lions share of the blame to ND for not doing their job, designing. If the minis could have been made better by one process over another it is their responsibility to push and inform the purchaser of their project that their are better alternatives and work to deliver the best product, especially when you have a PM that is inexperienced with said product.
Who approved ND's work? Who vetted and chose ND in the first place?
And while Palladium's mini experience may be minimal, HG should have had people with experience in the field looking over this as well.
There's plenty of blame to go around, but equivocating (if not declaring ND as owners of the 'lions share of the blame') seems to put an awful lot of power and responsibility in their hands while ignoring the dozens of times we heard about how PB and HG were approving things.
Doing crappy work is a flaw.
Is not approving crappy work even worse? Wherein several people all look over the results and said "Yup, that's good, go to print!"
And something I know I've brought up before, from what I've read it's possible that it wasn't ND that split up the pieces for the sprue, but someone at the factory. Apparently this isn't an uncommon thing? I know Wyrd has actually had to yell at the factory they worked with for getting some silly cuts going on.
So it's possible that ND had *nothing* to do with the final sprues, unless PB/HG turned to them as part of the approvals process, which is minutia we may never actually know about.
Long story short, it might not have had anything to do with ND, and even if it was, *someone* else in the loop should have called them on that bullgak.
Edit: and yes, in the end, what does it really matter? I suppose in part I'm just tired of the never ending sense that nothing is ever PB's fault, it's always someone else. "Boy who cried wolf" style, it makes times when they may legitimately not be at fault all the harder to believe.
Which is absolutely their doing, barring some tragic Gypsy curse or native american burial ground being involved.
JohnHwangDD wrote: SDE minis are PVC, not hard styrene, so that helps get the part count down because minor undercuts are possible.
As other companies demonstrate time and again (for example, Dreamforge, to name a company that also started doing plastic miniatures from a KS and without any previous work on the field), you can do a lot more. It's just more expensive.
As for what does or doesn't allow a plastic sprue... just go take a look at a Gunpla kit sometime, and get back to us then
I backed Mark's DreamForge Leviathan Crusader KS, and built that kit. It is a LOT of pieces of hard styrene with ZERO undercuts.
I have built Master Grade GunPla, and again, ZERO undercuts (aside from the new kits using slide molds, which would not have helped here). All of those kits are 2-part legs and arms for the same issue with undercuts that we see here with with the Valkyrie kits.
It would appear to me that you using rather poor examples, as both of them simply reinforce that Palladium / ND did the correct thing in terms of part separation for the models, based on the physical texture and detailing required to accurately reproduce the RoboTech Macross designs.
I'm curious, do you even know what an undercut is? Maybe you should Google it and educate yourself.
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Sining wrote: Why on earth are we going back to blaming ND for the number of parts again?
weren't the pods sprue decently designed? And then stuff just seemed to take a 180 turn when it came to the UEDF and others?
RRT backers like to find fault and blame people?
The Pod sprue was OK, simply because it lacks arms or other complex appendages. It's a legged egg - very simple design, very few parts.
The Recovery Pod is also OK, because it is big, and also inherently simple.
The Recon Pod is a little bit confusing, needs instructions or a really good picture of what goes where - poor sprue layout.
The Glaug hip design is not well-integrated into the body for no obvious reason - again, poor sprue layout.
The UEDF Destroids are OK, although I thought some of the separations were less than ideal. The waist joints were an unnecessary complication.
The UEDF Valks are inherently complex models, being winged humanoids that transform. To me, the biggest offender is the Battloid waist joint - totally unnecessary. And, as I've noted earlier, the Fighter wings should pivot, or at least be multi-position to swept. Finally, all of the wings should have missile attachment points marked. The biggest problem with these models is that the reference design and artwork wasn't really planned around making a tiny 3-D model kit out of hard styrene.
In my assessment, for the material in question (styrene), the parts breakdown and separation is about as good as it could be. The biggest flaw is sprue layout, with short attachment runners, excess framing, and poor logical grouping; however, not knowing to what extent the sprue layout is dictated by flow, fill and machine, it's hard to say if they could have done much better.
The second, is that ND aren't known for doing this. On stuff like Super Dungeon Explore, their parts counts are minimalist. The Relic Knights stuff is a little more complicated, but looks like nothing compared with the Robotech figures.
but in the end, as mentioned in the first point, it's irrelevant. PB signed off on these things (and were effusive with their praise, don't forget) and consistently said "quality over time", so it's on them.
I would also note that Harmony Gold is involved in the approval process, and had previously licensed the RoboTech label to Revell to bring the Japanese kits over way back when. HG has seen far more complex kits and definitely had a say in what would be required. Personally, I would prefer to blame HG and Macek. I have no issue assuming bad intent with those guys, based on their history and actions.
As noted earlier (and ignored by some), ND / SPM works pretty much exclusively in PVC, which allows for undercuts, resulting in reduced parts count at the cost of softer detail. I believe that these are the first styrene kits by ND / SPM, unlike Super Dungeon Explore or Relic Knights or Ninja All-Stars (KS coming soon).
PB did sign off and approve, although it's not clear how much was dictated by HG - remember that PB isn't the only approver here. It may well be that HG is/was dictating requirements to ND via PB, and PB just passed everything through in order to get approvals.
Mike1975 wrote: Whether they did or did not and were or were not pushed to do so that fact that they DID so knowing the results and consequences and knowing their name would be on the product speaks more to their character than anything if true. They were the experts and had their name on it. There is no strawman here. There is simple what we know and what we do not. I think it likely as Conrad Turner stated, PB asked ND to take a route and without the proper experience did not understand what the outcome and final destination would be.
I note that ND has largely washed their hands of RRT. There is no reference of it on their website, they're not promoting the models or any of that.
JohnHwangDD wrote: SDE minis are PVC, not hard styrene, so that helps get the part count down because minor undercuts are possible.
As other companies demonstrate time and again (for example, Dreamforge, to name a company that also started doing plastic miniatures from a KS and without any previous work on the field), you can do a lot more. It's just more expensive.
As for what does or doesn't allow a plastic sprue... just go take a look at a Gunpla kit sometime, and get back to us then
I backed Mark's DreamForge Leviathan Crusader KS, and built that kit. It is a LOT of pieces of hard styrene with ZERO undercuts.
I have built Master Grade GunPla, and again, ZERO undercuts (aside from the new kits using slide molds, which would not have helped here). All of those kits are 2-part legs and arms for the same issue with undercuts that we see here with with the Valkyrie kits.
It would appear to me that you using rather poor examples, as both of them simply reinforce that Palladium / ND did the correct thing in terms of part separation for the models, based on the physical texture and detailing required to accurately reproduce the RoboTech Macross designs.
I'm curious, do you even know what an undercut is? Maybe you should Google it and educate yourself.
I'm curious, did I say anything about undercuts, there?
As other companies demonstrate time and again (for example, Dreamforge, to name a company that also started doing plastic miniatures from a KS and without any previous work on the field), you can do a lot more. It's just more expensive.
As for what does or doesn't allow a plastic sprue... just go take a look at a Gunpla kit sometime, and get back to us then
Oh, look, no, I did not. I said that you can do much more with plastic injection machinery than what PB has done, and gave 2 examples of other companies that do indeed do more with them. If only choosing better where to do your cuts. Or in the case of Bandai, using multiple types of plastic in the same mold sprue (and yes, with undercuts, better take a look at the Real and Perfect Grades).
Anyone arguing that the parts arrangement on these models was necessary is uneducated on the subject. These mecha have been done multiple times by other makes that are actually more detailed and not split down then middle in the fashion we see in RRT.
OK, whatever. It's obvious that you don't understand why the kits are they way that they are, based on the technology and materials involved. It's also clear that you don't bother to educate yourself.
As for your examples, neither of them would have done any better than ND / PB with the HG-approved designs. In the case of Bandai / Hasegawa / others, they use the same basic part separations for their Macross kits that ND does, except that they tend to have even more parts per kit because they go bigger with more detail:
A 1/60 PG kit stands roughly a foot tall, not an inch and a half; that PG kit also costs a lot more than a buck fifty. If you were willing to pay 3 figures per model, instead of 3 bucks, you bet you'd get fancier mold technology. $150-$350 per PG model kit is 100x the price of a RRT kit. If that's your argument, you're failing pretty hard. It's like wondering why your ratty old Honda doesn't compare with a Rolls Royce built to spec. The scale and price differential is so far off, it's a pointless apples-to-oranges comparison.
1/60 PG RX-0 Unicorn Gundam sprues - one multi-gate sprue, out of 100s of parts
The only low parts count items from Japan are the PVC Gashapon, which have the same shrinkage & softness as SPM's SDE models. Or things that deliberately sacrifice detail (which requires different approvals).
You should stop now. I'm stopping with you on this topic.
Who said anything about Japan? Resin 1/285th garage kits exist of these designs made right here in the USA with under half the overall parts count that have more detail than any of the models released for RRT.
JohnHwangDD wrote: OK, whatever. It's obvious that you don't understand why the kits are they way that they are, based on the technology and materials involved. It's also clear that you don't bother to educate yourself.
Yes, John, it's clearly that.
As for your examples, neither of them would have done any better than ND / PB with the HG-approved designs. In the case of Bandai / Hasegawa / others, they use the same basic part separations for their Macross kits that ND does, except that they tend to have even more parts per kit because they go bigger with more detail:
You... do realize that's a kit from the 80s, don't you. Maybe you'd want to at least take a look at a Macross kit made this century instead of toting around that picture each and every time.
And even in that, prehistorical kit, you're wrong. Take a look at the legs: instead of bisecting it by the fething middle of the front over all its lenght, they do it along one of the "lines" that go down the leg, so as to hide it completely without needing any work whatsoever. Why, pray tell, do you think that's so technically challenging? There's also, of course, the little fact that being a 1/60 kit, the seams are not as noticeable than what they naturally are when the kit is... dunno, about 12 times smaller?
A 1/60 PG kit stands roughly a foot tall, not an inch and a half; that PG kit also costs a lot more than a buck fifty. If you were willing to pay 3 figures per model, instead of 3 bucks, you bet you'd get fancier mold technology. $150-$350 per PG model kit is 100x the price of a RRT kit. If that's your argument, you're failing pretty hard. It's like wondering why your ratty old Honda doesn't compare with a Rolls Royce built to spec. The scale and price differential is so far off, it's a pointless apples-to-oranges comparison.
Which is why I didn't. You seem to do it every time, though. Only thing I compared was sprue technology/seam placement/cutting decisions. But please, continue answering questions nobody has asked.
One thing, though, regarding your cost strawman. A Real Grade kit goes for 25 bucks, which yes, it is still about three times as much as a RRT mini (the retail price of a RRT box is 33 bucks, so one mini goes for about $8,25, not a buck fifty. That's actually more expensive than many GW minis)... but it's bigger than the Monster, which in turn costs more (40 bucks on KS money, I expect it will go for about 60 on retail). So yeah, clearly a worse choice. Clearly.
The only low parts count items from Japan are the PVC Gashapon, which have the same shrinkage & softness as SPM's SDE models. Or things that deliberately sacrifice detail (which requires different approvals).
Maybe that's because the Gashapons are the only ones actually meant to play with, wheres the others are display kits for enthusiasts? You do get to do this with them, though:
That's not a toy. That's a 1/72 fully transformable VF-1 plastic kit, released for the 30th anniversary of Macross. That doesn't require glue, or painting whatsoever (that said, these kits are kinda bad when compared with the Real Grades).
Still not sure what you think you're answering to, though.
You should stop now. I'm stopping with you on this topic.
Yes, please.
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Swabby wrote: Who said anything about Japan? Resin 1/285th garage kits exist of these designs made right here in the USA with under half the overall parts count that have more detail than any of the models released for RRT.
So sometime around when the 3D models were done and they were about to submit them for tooling something bad happened.
Best I could tell there was some compatibility issue with that supplier where the 3D models could not be read.
Now ND did the models, I would have figured they would have sourced the die manufacturer... but there was issues.
Now going into conjecture, one would think PB had a hand in trying to find a die maker and may have "suggested" using them.
It was also around that time that ND went dark and started backing away.
One would think ND would have continued unless PB decided to go in a direction that would be at odds with ND.
Again, we may never know the truth but when a "partnership" dissolves and prior work is not acknowledged, it is typically because it was hijacked into something the creator did not agree with.
Jan 9th 2014 update was rather telling:
As you know, Palladium is completely new to the wargame business. That’s why we joined forces with the talented gents at Ninja Division – the combined talents of Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios. Palladium is trusting their knowledge and expertise in all aspects of sculpting, mold making, sprue breakdowns and manufacturing. Like you, we assume they are doing everything in their power to make this the best product possible and to get Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to market as quickly as possible.
Jan 20th 2014
Release in two waves announced.
March 20, 2014
http://handcannononline.com/blog/2014/03/20/soda-pop-miniatures-interview-deke-john/ Q: Now aside from Relic Knights you also started up Ninja Division and teamed up with Palladium Books to produce Robotech RPG Tactics. How is that one coming along? A: Robotech is coming along well, the sculpts have finally all been approved by Palladium and Harmony Gold and tooling has begun. It won’t be too much longer and everyone will saving the Earth from the Zentraedi. Q: Do you have any plans for organized play for this game as well? Palladium Books is the publisher for Robotech RPG Tactics so they will be managing any organized play they want to do for the system. Ninja Division was hired to do the sculpting, help design the game, and run the initial Kickstarter for them.
May 1st 2014
Re-iterated the ND throw under the bus posting.
June 2014
RRT goes into production.
July 26 2014
"My deep and heartfelt thank you to our Kickstarter backers for voting to let us take Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell at Gen Con. The overwhelming majority (78% who actually voted) voted yes. Thank you for your understanding and kindness. You and your support are very appreciated." = KS
Aug 2014
Wave Two Update: In other news, things have been moving with Wave Two. We had a two hour conference call with Ninja Kai on Tuesday, going over the spec sheet and nailing down some details, and yesterday we got a bunch of renders and tentative sprue layouts. We've begun going over those and making notes for corrections. I’ll try to get some images posted in the next week, but no promises; I’m swamped with pre-convention stuff.
Sept 2014
Ninja John and Wayne visit China and seeing stuff shipped off.
October 2014
Majority of RRT ships in NA.
Jan 13 2015
Status of Wave Two Items: Wave Two is coming in 2015. We have not speculated as to when, because we get torn apart when we have to push back release dates. When we feel more comfortable with a projected release schedule, you will be the first to know. It will be this year. I can tell you that three weeks ago, Jeff Burke and I sent China changes and corrections to many of the 3D engineering models used for mold making and we are waiting for a progress report from them. I will try to post images of the 3D renders here as they are finalized and approved.
Jan 17 2015
Wave Two Update: We got some of the revised 3D renders back from the engineers in China this week, and it looks like most of our issues with the Gnerl, Ghost, Lancer, and Glaug-Eldare were fixed. Some progress was also made on the Jotun Armored Valkyrie, but it looks like a few things haven’t been addressed yet. Jeff and I will be combing over these in the next few days, and if we determine they’re good to go, the engineers can finalize mold layouts, I’ll post some images of the renders, and hopefully they’ll make and send us some prototypes.
Feb 10 2015
Final confirm of slow boat to EU and Aus.
So around Sept 2014 is the last we hear after Ninja Division, I suspect Wayne's visit was the official hand-off.
Here is the place, the contacts and ND is outta here.
What a trip down memory lane, just makes me more angry... hehe in a mixed insane way.
Designers do not have full control over the final product. I'm not sure why Mike thinks they do but in reality, almost every single designer or artistic type I've met has had to account and explain their designs to whoever they're trying to sell the design to. It's not like they have unfettered access to design whatever they want.
Personal anecdote wise, I've dealt with many furniture designers who my upper management has basically said 'you need to change this and that' before approving their designs. My friend who's in the ad industry complains all the time about suits meddling with their creative design, saying stuff like you need the logo in there, you need them to repeat the jingle X times etc.
Million dollar projects are just an open license for the creative types to do whatever they want. You never have studio or executive meddling at those kinds of dollar levels.
No amount of white knighting from the Palladium apologists will change the fact that the models were mediocre at best. And they did not HAVE to be the way they are, as far as breakdown/detail levels.
Whose fault is only relevant as a post mortem at this point - the game is DOA already. I have two local stores. One decided not to stock at all. The other got two starters before Xmas. They sold one and the other is getting dusty now. No restock, and never carried any of the expansion boxes. Why should they, when the game has spent lengthy amounts of time on the internet at 50%+ off? Anybody that wanted it could have gotten almost as good a deal as a 'backer', or better, but for a few exclusives.
Robotech RPG Tactics was a very successful kickstarter for a miniature game. There were more than 5,000 backers. Thus there potentially is a player base. I wonder how spread out the backers are? I would think that there are enough backers that there would happen to be concentrations in various areas.
The fact that it was a successful kickstarter certainly makes me expect that retails stores will shy away from it. This is all the more true because of the fact that it has a small range of items for sale. Thus, we cannot expect help from the LGS to grow the game. That duty is now left to the kickstarter backers, and Palladium. Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.
spaceelf wrote: Robotech RPG Tactics was a very successful kickstarter for a miniature game. There were more than 5,000 backers. Thus there potentially is a player base. I wonder how spread out the backers are? I would think that there are enough backers that there would happen to be concentrations in various areas.
I know of another one in my country. He lives about 600km from where I am, though right now is wuite fed up and looking to sell his pledge.
That said, there's a couple of friends looking to buy it, so there's that.
Spaceelf are you a backer? This game has been one fumble after another from the very beginning.
Those 5000 backers are spread out all over the world. They wont carry the game without a major influx of interest from non backers. The game does not make that easy.
I would wager that a very large portion of those 5k backers that have actually recieved it have yet to actually assemble the game.
Though at over 300 pages, admittedly that's a bit of a journey.
Between the backer's locations and Mike's map, the vaaaaast majority of the backers and English speaking playerbase are found in the US, but (unsurprisingly) this still means they are pretty broadly spread out.
I've definitely heard some store owners being unhappy with Kickstarters, but frankly that's often short sighted. Yes, those can be seen as 'tons of consumers getting a massive deal and thus aren't buying from them', but A) those backers are how the product was created in the first place, and B) ideally a popular enough product is going to draw in their friends and family and acquaintances, such that one backer could lead to several (if not dozens) of other consumers eventually.
And frankly, no, growing the game does not fall on 'the backers', it falls on the community, self selecting as it is, and on Palladium. One of which has a vested interest in having opponents, and the other has a financial benefit from it growing. As a backer who has come to give less and less of a gak, I've been happy to share my views on the product (not terribly favorable) and might one day get a game in if any of my other friends can find a feth to give about actually playing it.
Characterizing it as some sort of unwarranted hit piece is to ignore the last 2 *years* of shenanigans and assume that the figures are fine as it is, which is a highly subjective stance to take.
spaceelf wrote: <snip>Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.
I have been highly motivated to get a force together to play the darn thing.
Getting it out for others to see and play is probably the only way to get the unsold box of the game at my FLGS picked up.
I now have completed an assembled force since I received my game just before Christmas.
I have made a 300 point force for both sides, 30 Zent models (2 scout and 1 battle group and 4 missile pods) and 28 UEDF models (2 Valk and 1Tom. Destroid squadron). (I had done all the destroids so an extra 12 were done).
At 20 minutes per model (about) that is around 19 odd hours of assembly time not allowing for conversions or anything fancy.
I have not even started painting yet! This is not time for a casual gamer to take lightly or an easy way to showcase the game with any degree of speed.
In a way, Wave 2 may be the true launch of the game since we would have time to get the core game ready to go and can piggy-back with the fancy new models release.
I am so sorely tempted to bad-mouth at every turn because the game has appeared so incredibly inaccessible with PB being an unintentional PR nightmare and ND who had a clue, pretending they were never involved: it really does fall on us as the fans to make it work... lord help us.
The models look good when done.
The plastic is good and hard, I have high hopes of their survival during game play.
The fancy cards are nice and good for reference (I will still piece together something a little more coherent though...).
The core game box has all the right things for some games "out of the box" and looks rather pretty.
The game rules are serviceable and makes for fast deadly games.
In the end, I got mostly a game I want.
I have not quite had the value of my money compared to retail due to Wave 2 stuff in limbo but we got the game didn't we?
So, I am trying to present the game at our local big tabletop gaming thing and it is not helpful for me to go into it feeling all bi-polar about it. The name is to have fun, I just wish people could get the game without giving money to PB...
Forar is the only person I know of at this moment within an hours drive who has the game.
I hope in the coming months as others complete their models they will surface to be found.
<chant> I have the game I wanted... how I got it, how long I waited, who made it, what remains to be made, just try to ignore that, la, la, la, la...
spaceelf wrote: Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.
No, that's not true.
Many of the backers, for a long time, had literally nothing to do related to the game other than express frustration at the process. IIRC it was more than a year late delivering?
Should a delay have been expected? Sure - their delivery dates, especially the initial October one, were basically impossible to meet. The problem is PB never came out and said, "Yeah, we screwed up giving that date. Here's a more realistic one."
They blamed everyone else, every time.
The radio silence on Wave 2 is extremely frustrating. Has anyone gotten a response after emailing them a change of address? I am only getting stuff from Wave 2 so it's kind of important that they update my address... and I've emailed them. 3 times. No response.
rigeld2 wrote: Many of the backers, for a long time, had literally nothing to do related to the game other than express frustration at the process. IIRC it was more than a year late delivering?
A year and 3 months, so far, and counting. I've only had anything else to do with the game because I've bought a box of stuff.
I was surprised with the cards, though. Much better than I thought they would be, even the tiny teeny ones ^^
spaceelf wrote: Robotech RPG Tactics was a very successful kickstarter for a miniature game. There were more than 5,000 backers. Thus there potentially is a player base.
The fact that it was a successful kickstarter certainly makes me expect that retails stores will shy away from it.
Thus, we cannot expect help from the LGS to grow the game. That duty is now left to the kickstarter backers, and Palladium.
Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.
RTT has a decent base, but it sold based on nostalgia, and a lot of backers bought enough that they won't need to buy much more.
Retail will see some sales, again, for the nostalgia factor.
Growing the game is based on playabilty, and I'm not sure that Palladium has done a great job there. GW is playable, so it does OK, despite GW.
Negative word of mouth is the biggest problem with growing the game.
With more than 5000 customers, a small number of vocal complainers doesn't mean everyone is unhappy.
What measure of success are you using for this game that has been out for less than 6 months?
It is a niche game in a niche hobby. A game of giant mecha fighting based on a cartoon from 30 years ago.
The tired comparison to GW or Privateer of every game system that gets released is absolutely meaningless. There are many "boutique" games out there that don't need booming sales, just enough to keep companies happy to continue production/expansion and have happy players. It is the growing trend of the hobby.
Does Palladium consider it a success? After Wave 2 will they look to continue producing more? That's what matters, rather than how well does it compare to sales of entrenched game systems that have been around for years or even decades.
Declarations of both success and failure are indeed premature.
A lot of data will be localized and anecdotal; individual shops/groups, and I don't think Palladium is in the habit of releasing sales stats, so I doubt we'll have anything remotely concrete for a long time to come, if ever.
I mean, utter failure? PB closes its doors. Utter success? They skip Kickstarter for wave 2 and 3 and just pay up front and tuck a big wad of cash in the factory manager's shirt pocket and tell them to get to work on Rifts Tactics too, and then drive up a dumptruck with more money to cover the next century of production.
Reality will obviously fall somewhere in the middle.
If nothing else, in terms of community engagement and official support, seeing how they handle the next two Adepticons and Gencons will probably at least give us an idea.
spaceelf wrote: Sadly, many of the backers seem to think their time is better spent bad mouthing the game.
No, that's not true.
Many of the backers, for a long time, had literally nothing to do related to the game other than express frustration at the process. IIRC it was more than a year late delivering?
Should a delay have been expected? Sure - their delivery dates, especially the initial October one, were basically impossible to meet. The problem is PB never came out and said, "Yeah, we screwed up giving that date. Here's a more realistic one."
They blamed everyone else, every time.
The radio silence on Wave 2 is extremely frustrating. Has anyone gotten a response after emailing them a change of address? I am only getting stuff from Wave 2 so it's kind of important that they update my address... and I've emailed them. 3 times. No response.
European Backer here. I emailed them to change my address recently & they responded within 24 hours to acknowledge the change.
Skorne wrote: European Backer here. I emailed them to change my address recently & they responded within 24 hours to acknowledge the change.
Yes, because your communication did not involve "Wave 2" which is under a communication black-out.
Or, they feel some guilt about you guys out there and are a bit more responsive.
I am not a backer, so my criticisms may be unfounded. I was aware that it was more than a year late. However, if I had money riding on it, and was interested enough to back it, I probably would try to push the game.
Although I am not a backer, I do own the game. I special ordered it from my FLGS when I heard that it came out. There are a handful of folks around that have it as well. (I usually do not back kickstarters. Most of the companies that create them are just using backers as a loan. Given what I have seen from delays and bad sculpts (mantic men at arms) I have no interest in kickstarters. I was sorely tempted with AVP. I am glad that I did not get in on that.)
spaceelf wrote: I am not a backer, so my criticisms may be unfounded. I was aware that it was more than a year late. However, if I had money riding on it, and was interested enough to back it, I probably would try to push the game.
Although I am not a backer, I do own the game. I special ordered it from my FLGS when I heard that it came out. There are a handful of folks around that have it as well. (I usually do not back kickstarters. Most of the companies that create them are just using backers as a loan. Given what I have seen from delays and bad sculpts (mantic men at arms) I have no interest in kickstarters. I was sorely tempted with AVP. I am glad that I did not get in on that.)
So you, as a non backer, allready have the game at hand? I, as a backer, am still waiting for mine to arrive.
Yeah i should push the game, so that maybe someday i will see wave 2, as i don´t believe they have the funds anymore to produce wave 2. i guess they don´t even have the money to ship to us ROW backers.
Their empty promises is what pisses me off.
Hey we will post pictures maybe next week..... months later ..... nothing.
Their copy and paste updates are anoying, even their whining about their long work days.
Hell if they were really working that hard, their games would allready be finished last decade. And the packages would have been shipped in no time.
But maybe they are working out of their nursing home, so speed is relative.
I'm really sick and fething tired of people who bought the game at retail complaining about backers complaining and being negative.
I still don't have mine, but it's fething wonderful you could buy your copy, im so fething overjoyed I paid upfront so you could decide kickstarters aren't worth the risk and buy it at retail. In fact im exploding with fething delight.
For feths Sake.
megatrons2nd wrote: Is there a sticker or something that we can use dry erase on? I think if I could find something that works with dry erase markers to stick on the little stand up portion of the base, I could write a designation on each, and change as necessary.
The advice on a different forum for a similar problem was:
Get some gloss enamel paint and paint a square on the back on all of you bases and use a dry erase marker to out dots of different color to signify which group they go to.
Adjustable to different lists.
So gloss enamel on the base, or on the edges of the base, or whatever; and that gives you a surface you can use dry erase marker on.
spaceelf wrote: I am not a backer, so my criticisms may be unfounded. I was aware that it was more than a year late. However, if I had money riding on it, and was interested enough to back it, I probably would try to push the game. Although I am not a backer, I do own the game. I special ordered it from my FLGS when I heard that it came out. There are a handful of folks around that have it as well. (I usually do not back kickstarters. Most of the companies that create them are just using backers as a loan. Given what I have seen from delays and bad sculpts (mantic men at arms) I have no interest in kickstarters. I was sorely tempted with AVP. I am glad that I did not get in on that.)
If this was not intentional trolling it is rather... impressive.
I suppose we can surmise you kinda felt ok enough to buy the retail game since there was nothing better to do at the time.
Oddly enough PB sucks just enough, that if they were not backed on this I could guarantee you would not have been able to buy the game: your welcome from 5000 other suckers just like me.
I would generally agree that many kickstarters are just not worth the risk to back.
In this case it was coming from these turkeys or not at all, ever.
One could say Steve Jackson sort-of sucked too but product came out, so there is varying degrees of success.
I would suggest whatever that criticism you were trying to make: be more clear and possibly show some level of commitment: it involves an inherent form of risk you seem rather adverse to.
I thought his criticism was backers suck, why are you guys all complaining about the game that I was able to buy from the store with full knowledge of what the figures would look like and with reviews already online.
GHQ Extended 6mm Conventional minis for Robotech sale till March 2nd!
OK, we just extended the Futuretech15 discount code. It now expires on March 2nd. Just order over $50 worth of merchandise, use the Futuretech15 code, and you will get 15% off on your entire order! Spread the word! We want to see how many people are interested in GHQ in the Robotech world!
Sining wrote: I thought his criticism was backers suck, why are you guys all complaining about the game that I was able to buy from the store with full knowledge of what the figures would look like and with reviews already online.
Either that backers suck or that they are suckers. Can't really decide which.
Sining wrote: I thought his criticism was backers suck, why are you guys all complaining about the game that I was able to buy from the store with full knowledge of what the figures would look like and with reviews already online.
Either that backers suck or that they are suckers. Can't really decide which.
Hehe, thanks for not holding back on the clarification both of you, it is oddly therapeutic.
I found it rather funny he could not quite bring himself to say "I think you are all fools for backing a kickstarter." but said everything else around it.
Nothing more irritating than taking a hit for the team and the ungrateful wretches post smug "LOL! I got it retail! What is your issue! You whiners!" messages (do not even look at the "international" backers, they may have to resort to hooliganism soon...).
Like with anything, it is rather sad when an interesting system for getting garage inventor's ideas into reality gets abused enough that it is considered broken.
I find myself thinking there are few things I would want to back in the future.
I really hope the Conan kickstarter goes well, it would be nice to see such a nice fit for gaming be a success story.
<edit> So it is around that time to give a Wave 2 update. Yup. Anyyy time now...
I realize I'm (purposefully) late to the party but I recall a few weeks/months back there was some "discussion" as to the ultimate fate of RRPGT based on the sales data posted by a single (or possibly two) online stores. The data that covers Robotech's North American release period from hundreds of stores that use Alliance as a distributor (Palladium's favorite IIRC) is now out.
TL;DR: Robotech is mentioned in the Top 5 about as many times as we get real concrete info on Wave 2 in the weekly updates.
Obviously, it is still too soon to figure out the ultimate fate of the game but it's clearly not a breakout hit with a meteoric rise at this point. Maybe it'll slow boil to the top 5 after wave 2?
I purchased mine at retail, after a friend of mine who backed it received his items. So it is not as if I got my product before local backers.
Kickstarter is not a preorder or get stuff cheap site. I figure that people who back projects really want them to happen, as opposed to simply wanting to get some stuff inexpensively, or before other people.
I am sorry if my comments were offensive, and I appreciate the fact that some backers are waiting for their product, and that it is more than a year overdue. However, I do stand by my point, that I expect that backers who both supported the project, and have money riding on it, would be interested in pushing the game instead of bad mouthing it.
You are correct that at one point everyone who backed wanted the game to succeed, those days had a sunset colored in 50 shades of lies quite some time ago.
Swabby wrote: You are correct that at one point everyone who backed wanted the game to succeed, those days had a sunset colored in 50 shades of lies quite some time ago.
I do sometimes feel like I was tricked into entering and then tied up in Kevin's "play room" for a year with RRPGT with only the occasional visit from Wayne "bring out the Gimp" Smith.
TL;DR: Robotech is mentioned in the Top 5 about as many times as we get real concrete info on Wave 2 in the weekly updates.
Obviously, it is still too soon to figure out the ultimate fate of the game but it's clearly not a breakout hit with a meteoric rise at this point. Maybe it'll slow boil to the top 5 after wave 2?
I guess that means that Malifaux, Infinity, Flames of War, Hordes, Warhammer Fantasy, Sails of Glory, Firestorm Armada, Mercs, Kings of War, Wargods, Judge Dredd, Hail Caesar/Black Powder/Pike and Shotte, Heavy Gear, Deadzone, Dreadball, Dust, Battletech, Warzone, Urban War and dozens of others should pack it up since they didn't make the list, either.
TL;DR: Robotech is mentioned in the Top 5 about as many times as we get real concrete info on Wave 2 in the weekly updates.
Obviously, it is still too soon to figure out the ultimate fate of the game but it's clearly not a breakout hit with a meteoric rise at this point. Maybe it'll slow boil to the top 5 after wave 2?
I guess that means that Malifaux, Infinity, Flames of War, Hordes, Warhammer Fantasy, Sails of Glory, Firestorm Armada, Mercs, Kings of War, Wargods, Judge Dredd, Hail Caesar/Black Powder/Pike and Shotte, Heavy Gear, Deadzone, Dreadball, Dust, Battletech, Warzone, Urban War and dozens of others should pack it up since they didn't make the list, either.
It's like you completely didn't read his post or anything.
TL;DR: Robotech is mentioned in the Top 5 about as many times as we get real concrete info on Wave 2 in the weekly updates.
Obviously, it is still too soon to figure out the ultimate fate of the game but it's clearly not a breakout hit with a meteoric rise at this point. Maybe it'll slow boil to the top 5 after wave 2?
I guess that means that Malifaux, Infinity, Flames of War, Hordes, Warhammer Fantasy, Sails of Glory, Firestorm Armada, Mercs, Kings of War, Wargods, Judge Dredd, Hail Caesar/Black Powder/Pike and Shotte, Heavy Gear, Deadzone, Dreadball, Dust, Battletech, Warzone, Urban War and dozens of others should pack it up since they didn't make the list, either.
It's like you completely didn't read his post or anything.
I guess putting the word "obviously" at the beginning of the sentence wasn't ironically obvious enough. Lesson learned. Underlined italic large off color text may be necessary for some readers.
I'm sorry, were you trying to convey a message other than that the game did not make it to the top five and implying that not being there is a bad thing?
As a nostalgia purchase, almost all of the value is just in having the classic models / toys in hand.
I suspect many people would be just fine to buy a box of Valkyries over the game itself.
In many ways Robotech should have gone the X-Wing route with a handful of larger, prepainted playing pieces that people can simply collect.
Ironically enough, I plan to use some for X-Wing.
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n815e wrote: I'm sorry, were you trying to convey a message other than that the game did not make it to the top five and implying that not being there is a bad thing?
I think that he was implying that now we have more info. Up until now, the only sales point we had was the one from one store.
I also think you're trying really hard to look for a fault in his statement.
For those that haven't been reading along, it was merely a reference to the statements from some posters over the last few months that RRT showing up on "some big distributor's personal online shop" was indicative of big things. While I believe ICV's info is still based on self-reported data and thus not entirely comprehensive, it's not without merit either.
Look, it's entirely possible to carve out a nice niche. To be profitable and expand the line and bring in new players. It's a very naive view that 'IT MUST BE AMAZING, GO BIG OR GO HOME FETHERS!', and yet any commentary on concern regarding sales and community size is often met with a baffling level of defensiveness.
It doesn't need to be top 5 to be a success. It being in the top 5 on some site (still haven't seen a citation that FRP or whatever the hell their name is is 'among the largest distributors') isn't an iron clad indicator of success.
As I noted above, jokingly, the delta between "abysmal failure" and "unparalleled successs" is *massive*, and we probably won't know for certain for some time to come.
Or at least 5 months, because if they haven't at least said something about the line by Gencon, we'll know something is up. Failing to expand upon an allegedly successful product line for an entire year would be something of a red flag.
So Robotech is not a box-office smash, (thanks for the data as proof though!!) but I suspect it is the hottest thing PB has had in a decade or two.
Yes, many of us ARE pushing the game, it just needs a ton of work to get it out there and look descent.
BUT you can wish for a game to succeed but that does not preclude us from holding the publisher's feet to the fire for things promised not met or delayed with no end in sight.
You can love the music but the artist can still be a scumbag and should be held accountable for their actions.
The need is to make PB uncomfortable because they will happily coast along until the next cash-grab opportunity comes within striking distance.
They have a proven history of allowing pre-order of books that still have not been published for years at a time.
Honestly, their only two merits are they have been awarded the IP by HG, and were smart enough to get ND design group to get it going.
It also seems terribly wrong to reward bad behavior by throwing money at them and not demanding what was agreed.
I think this is a fine time to point to the legal obligation of the project creator since some people like to think it is more open than it is:
Spoiler:
"If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
•they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
•they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
•they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
•they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
•they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers."
I also really like the kickstarter requirement of a prototype presented and no photorealistic renderings... so 3D models count?
Spoiler:
"Projects must be honest and clearly presented.
Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish. When a project involves manufacturing and distributing something complex, like a gadget, we require projects to show a prototype of what they’re making, and we prohibit photorealistic renderings."
Notes on delivery date (old rules in 2014... updated since), note on main KS page delivery was to be December 2013:
Spoiler:
The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by.
Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date.
I think I would like to turn things on their head:
What is up with PB negativity?
Isn't it strange their "good news!" stuff is all about mouth watering generalities.
All their bad news stuff is very specific "We didn't do this! Here is proof!".
They need to get some actual pictures of stuff getting done before the torches and pitchforks need to get fired up again.
Talizvar wrote: So Robotech is not a box-office smash, (thanks for the data as proof though!!) but I suspect it is the hottest thing PB has had in a decade or two.
No worries, you're welcome. I just thought some data (admitedly self reported) from hundreds of stores (supposedly according to ICV) submitted to the largest tabletop games distributor who also happens to be best buds with Kevin and the Palladium crew would be more helpful that the listing of one popular online retailer. As for the last part of your post above, a quote about the one eyed man being king in the land of the blind comes to mind. If I sold even one copy of something RPG or minis related, it would also be the hottest thing made by Warboss Gaming Industries LTD TM R C INC.
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n815e wrote: I'm sorry, were you trying to convey a message other than that the game did not make it to the top five and implying that not being there is a bad thing?
Forar and Albertorius have already explained it well enough so I'll just echo it above in my previous quote. I would point out though since you brought it up that it is a good assumption that something being in the top 5 sellers from a poll of hundreds of retailers would indeed be a better "thing" than not being in the top 5. Maybe wave 2 will change that. I suspect that Palladium hoped it would be big enough to land in one of the top spots though.
... Seriously, one e-tailer doesn't tell the whole story.
Needs more data.
and cue the
"Top Seller Lists from one of the largest online gaming retailers (and in fact, the retail side of one of the largest gaming distributors in North America) don't mean anything, not when my perpetual feedback loop is telling me the game is DOA, unsuccessful, and terrible!"
Well, in the time that RRT was shipped to backers in America, (october), I've started both Dropzone and Planetfall, painted 3 armies for them and basically, if I'm going to push any games, it's going to be those two. Along with my main staple of WMH.
Maybe if they had come in October, I could have pushed it instead but nope, I still have no news of when my ROW will ship.
spaceelf wrote: Kickstarter is not a preorder or get stuff cheap site.
The hell it isn't.
I'm only backing if I think I'm actually going to receive sufficient gaming value for my dollar by preordering directly from the manufacturer.
You don't understand! Kickstarter is exactly what a project creator wants it to be...at any given moment, and there is no requirement or expectation for that to remain consistent from year to year, update to update, or even sentence to sentence in the same update!
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Forar wrote: Or at least 5 months, because if they haven't at least said something about the line by Gencon, we'll know something is up. Failing to expand upon an allegedly successful product line for an entire year would be something of a red flag.
Speaking of updates, let's try something different. Rather than merely copy/pasting the text from the most recent one, let's have a snapshot, to really give YOU, *the viewer*, the full impact of every Word Italicized For Effect, Bolded for EMPHASIS, and oh btw get your address in have we mentioned that you should get your address in?
Edit: for those who don't want to strain themselves reading that or expand the image:
Spoiler:
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
We need to make EVERYBODY aware of Robotech® RPG Tactics™, so please spread the word, and talk the game up, because while we’ve been working on getting Wave One shipped and Wave Two advanced into manufacturing, we have been developing plans for all kinds of future releases. Everything from game pieces to broaden the scope of battles (like tanks, trucks, the Comanchero Helicopter, other aircraft, etc.) to scenario books and advanced rules and new battle-fronts. As you know, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ (RRT) – which starts with the Macross mecha and setting – is NOW AVAILABLE in stores across the USA and Canada (and soon in Europe and Australia). But we have big plans for all eras of Robotech® and ideas that have NEVER been done! (And you are going to love.) If you can’t find Robotech® RPG Tactics™ on the store shelf, make sure the manager and/or owner of the store knows you want the product and that he can get it right now from his distributor!
Robotech® fans, the RRT rules capture the very essence, speed and combat action of the Macross TV series. Collectors may want this gorgeous game just to have in their collections, because it is beautiful and contains a wealth of art and images never before offered. Take a look and spread the word. Oh, and for those of you who would like to see the rules first, you can purchase the full color Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Rulebook directly from Palladium Books. We also intend to make the rules available online.
Join the thousands of people who are already building, painting and playing right now. Robotech® RPG Tactics™ games and tournaments are already starting to pop up at conventions and more will be coming.
But don't worry guys, just because they let another week go by with actual details about wave two is no reason to be concerned about wave two.
Forar, I'm sure that no news is good news. The last time we had a real progress news drought of this magnitude that was being filled with half glass full platitudes, it was followed by the epic Xmas 2013 preview of the 3d prints of wave 1 whose stellar reception I'm sure you remember. If that isn't any indication that quality easy to assemble minis with no problems like 98% of the work done being scrapped secretly and needing to be redone being kept quiet until just literally weeks before they'd have to start shipping from china to meet their revised earlier delivery date causing a ripple effect leading to a multiyear delay isn't happening then I don't know what is.
Still no concession that it actually IS available in Australia and Europe (and elsewhere in RoW). They could have put a disclaimer that it'll "officially" be available soon. But yet they close their eyes and pretend it didn't happen.
But accepting reality isn't their strong suit, so...
Just from a curiosity point I'd like to know "officially", if the sales to AU/EU/RoW is actually a breach of contract like they've implied it is (and if they plan to do anything about it), or if they just thought it wouldn't happen.
There's a big difference between "We kept quiet and just hoped they wouldn't sell internationally" to "We asked them not to sell internationally" to "We contractually forbade them from selling internationally".
Because if they didn't put the latter in place, pretending like it's some breach of trust, as they have, is pretty disingenuous.
I thought that PB already stated that the ROW stuff is "grey market" import from US distribution.
There is no "breach of contract" - in the US, "first sale" doctrine says that you can do whatever you like with stuff. If I buy a pallet of RRT in the US, and ship it to EU/Oz/RoW, that's my business. Sure, I'm going to incur customs & VAT, but there is no contract.
PB isn't GW, which controls distribution to prevent global resale. PB doesn't have the same market share as GW's 40k.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I thought that PB already stated that the ROW stuff is "grey market" import from US distribution.
I don't recall them saying this. Just vague statements that international retailers "shouldn't have it", which doesn't mean a whole lot. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is no "breach of contract" - in the US, "first sale" doctrine says that you can do whatever you like with stuff. If I buy a pallet of RRT in the US, and ship it to EU/Oz/RoW, that's my business. Sure, I'm going to incur customs & VAT, but there is no contract.
Which is kind of my point. If there is no legal restriction that stops a US distributor from selling to international distributors/retailers, then it COMPLETELY craps on the PB promise that "backers will get it before retail" that became "international backers will get it before international retail". And as Sining mentioned, how do you define grey market? Because to my knowledge, PB don't have distribution points in most countries. Meaning unless an international retailer purchases direct from Palladium (which is cumbersome and costly unless they're buying a metric crap-ton of it), it's either going to purchase from a local distributor that does (which PB could have restricted), or an international, ie US based one (which you've said as much, PB can't restrict).
JohnHwangDD wrote: PB isn't GW, which controls distribution to prevent global resale. PB doesn't have the same market share as GW's 40k.
Maybe not. But I do know MtG (yes, another behemoth) enforces (for some definition of enforce) street dates. Though those do tend to be international.
So, I guess my point is, that after they broke the initial promise (backers before retail), and unilaterally changed it to "backers in country X before retailers in country X", they didn't even stop to consider that it was completely unenforceable, and are now bemoaning the fact that there's apparently nothing illegal, and not even really anything immoral about US distributors doing this, from the distributor's perspective. Either that, or as per the Update, not even recognizing that it's happening.
Remember, we're not talking about individuals buying from Webstores for personal use* which would be tricky, but retailers getting this in, and selling it for profit.
* Even then, some companies like WotC ARE able to enforce in some manner, location restricted shipping. I can't buy non-single MtG from US webstores, apparently due to contracts in place. And that's not one store. Noble Knight, WarStore and another (CSI? MM? I can't recall as I never purchased anything from them), all won't allow purchase of sealed MtG product. Ironically, the only thing I wanted to buy were Preconstructed Decks, but as they now come with boosters, the restriction applies.
So, should this be seen as a weakness of credibility (they knew it was never enforceable, but said it anyway), or a weakness of competency (they don't have the legal framework to enforce it, but think they did)? Cause no amount of shifting goalposts changes the fact that there are significant reports of RRT being offered for sale in retail stores in countries that aren't "supposed" to have it.
Street date is a different matter; those can be enforced contractually for most any good. However, they cannot be enforced internationally. In other words, once the street date in the US has passed, the item(s) can be sent out anywhere from a US retailer. This is typically why release dates for different regions are usually clustered together where the shipping time from A to B is going to be longer than the release window. Doing otherwise generally sours distributors in the regions that are later, as their competitors with tentacles in the earlier regions get a given commodity to market before they do. RTT is not a big enough deal that most distributors are going to notice, but it doesn't help when the lag time is measured in months and they're mulling future orders.
Now, a manufacturer can put into their sales contracts that their distributors are not allowed to sell to overseas entities, but that isn't particularly realistic in stopping things from heading over the pond and it really just nudges the price up a bit higher as it moves through an extra set of (non-contractually bound) hands. Sure, if a company knows Distributor X was doing that they could take action, but PB isn't in the position of GW or MtG to dictate. Those latter two literally keep game stores open and that's a huge amount of economic clout where angering the manufacturer could mean a heavy hit to your bottom line. PB and RTT? Likely a rounding error on most balance sheets, so they aren't really going to be in a position where they can do much more than rail against cruel market fortunes that have undermined them thusly.
Well, they could have not sold the product until they got their act together on shipping, but I have a sinking suspicion that financially that's not really an option owing to their extant contracts and finances. Anyone know how large of a print run they did for retail and where the money for that came from? I'm guessing a company that needs crowdfunding to produce books years late isn't exactly in the best financial health, especially after they've had to endure a Crisis of Treachery® and such. I'm not picking up an "evil" vibe from most of the stuff PB does; most of it is explainable as being comically short-sighted and not thinking things through all the way (which is not a trait PB is unique in possessing).
Krinsath wrote: Well, they could have not sold the product until they got their act together on shipping, but I have a sinking suspicion that financially that's not really an option owing to their extant contracts and finances. Anyone know how large of a print run they did for retail and where the money for that came from? I'm guessing a company that needs crowdfunding to produce books years late isn't exactly in the best financial health, especially after they've had to endure a Crisis of Treachery® and such. I'm not picking up an "evil" vibe from most of the stuff PB does; most of it is explainable as being comically short-sighted and not thinking things through all the way (which is not a trait PB is unique in possessing).
The Crisis of Treachery® was announced on April 19, 2006. That's a whole nine years ago. And the great KS announced on May 7, 2007 that they had covered most of their damages. I think they should probably stop relying on that by now.
Albertorius wrote: The Crisis of Treachery® was announced on April 19, 2006. That's a whole nine years ago. And the great KS announced on May 7, 2007 that they had covered most of their damages. I think they should probably stop relying on that by now.
So they went through the couch cushions and recovered twice as much capital? I jest...
It was really more a jab at how everything is always someone else's fault down PB Way.
Krinsath wrote: Now, a manufacturer can put into their sales contracts that their distributors are not allowed to sell to overseas entities, but that isn't particularly realistic in stopping things from heading over the pond and it really just nudges the price up a bit higher as it moves through an extra set of (non-contractually bound) hands. Sure, if a company knows Distributor X was doing that they could take action, but PB isn't in the position of GW or MtG to dictate. Those latter two literally keep game stores open and that's a huge amount of economic clout where angering the manufacturer could mean a heavy hit to your bottom line. PB and RTT? Likely a rounding error on most balance sheets, so they aren't really going to be in a position where they can do much more than rail against cruel market fortunes that have undermined them thusly.
Which brought me to my speculation question, that we're not going to get from the people who know. Did they know they had no control, and lie. Or did they not understand what appear to be fairly basic legal concepts*, and state something categorically wrong? Because the promise was made, and seems to be unenforceable from the start. So, deceitful or incompetent?
* Yes, I know I wasn't clear on it. But then again, I'm not a supply side business who SHOULD know. I don't know jack about business tax either. Sure as hell hope someone over at PBHQ does.
Krinsath wrote: Well, they could have not sold the product until they got their act together on shipping, but I have a sinking suspicion that financially that's not really an option owing to their extant contracts and finances. Anyone know how large of a print run they did for retail and where the money for that came from? I'm guessing a company that needs crowdfunding to produce books years late isn't exactly in the best financial health, especially after they've had to endure a Crisis of Treachery® and such. I'm not picking up an "evil" vibe from most of the stuff PB does; most of it is explainable as being comically short-sighted and not thinking things through all the way (which is not a trait PB is unique in possessing).
I think the initial retail print run was estimated in the 50-65% range of the Kickstarter launch, based on the number of containers, the number specifically for backers, and the estimated quantity of material per container. So 3-4K boxes and probably a similar number of the six expansions. There's never been even an alluded to "official" number.
And there's no way given their secrecy with all things business related, they're ever going to show where the money for Retail Wave 1 came from. Nor, would I honestly expect them to. Some speculate they used KS funds to do so, putting sales income back into it, but as long as they were doing that while financially backed (ie, using fluid funds to pay for it, but having actual funds that may have been tied up at the time, available should it have gone to hell), I don't really have that much of an issue. As long as they did remain fully solvent throughout.
As Albertorius said though, it's been 9 years since the whole CoT thing (and there's circumstantial evidence it wasn't even that bad financially, with significant portions of the loss being from Kevin's personal collections, rather than significant on-the-books fraud). If PB is still financially crippled, they've got bigger issues. It seems like you're more in the "They're incompetent" camp. And that's a reasonable position. But I wouldn't at all be surprised if they knew they couldn't live up to their initial promise "Backer before Retail/Distrib" (made with good intentions), faced a reality of the situation and revised it "Backer shipped before R/D", and then knowing it was impossible but refusing to admit they were wrong (which is also a trait PB isn't unique in, but one they're pretty proficient in), made up a revised "Backer receive before their local R/D", and then claiming moral outrage when the inevitable happened.
Either is entirely plausible. And that's what makes this so intriguing to me. So many consistently wrong choices, and I'm not sure if they're slick snake-oil salesmen, or so incompetent it's a wonder they can find the building each morning. Forar once speculated it resembles performance art, and I agree. Hell, seeing how this plays out is the only reason I'm still sticking around. If we could see behind the curtain, it probably wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting.
My apologies, I wasn't trying to imply that they were doing anything shady with the money, simply that IF they had spent a great deal on the retail run of the product that needed to be re-couped that it would be in the backer's interest that they break their "backers before retail" promise. Granted, you get there by making poor decisions, but poor choice != evil choices. I don't see where there's the animus required to call a company "bad"; "would-be-funny-if-it-wasn't-money" certainly and you can definitely make a case for "farcical" at this point, but the idea of malevolence that I've seen some comments hinting at is a bit much from my outsider's viewpoint.
It's more likely that Mr. KS has a good deal of vision, but with a very poor ability to know how to go from vision to product. This isn't uncommon (see also: Peter Molyneux in the video game industry) and in fact I'd say that the person who can see where to go AND how to get there is by far rarer in any walk of life. The problem is that PB has devolved into a situation where because he has the vision, he MUST be the one to bring it about. Everyone else keeps messing it up, after all. However, this does not encourage people to speak out against a bad idea, and all reports are that he takes that sort of pushback very badly.
While that's a common theme at most companies that few people want to stand up to the boss, it's not a good thing. If you're the boss and you don't have an employee coming in to tell you that you're doing something wrong on a somewhat regular basis, you have a bad situation on your hands. Either your employees don't trust you enough to communicate (meaning you're a bad boss), or your employees have no idea what they're doing either (meaning they're incompetent). Nobody gets everything right, and it's important to have people who tell you when you're being stupid because it happens to all of us. I don't think there is such a person at PB, and every mis-step made along the way in this KS seems to illustrate that point. KS needs to learn to have someone close to operations tell him he's an idiot when he's being one, and have the humility to honestly examine the feedback for improvement instead of sneering and pushing forward (which seems to be his default reaction).
At this stage I'm pretty sure we'll see pigs flying over snowdrifts in hell before that comes about and the horses have found a new life for themselves far away from the barn that would lock up, but that really seems to be the missing ingredient that would have turned things around; just that voice of someone in touch with reality. You don't want your visionaries TOO grounded (or their visions are kind of "meh" after all), but someone has to figure out how to build up to that castle in the sky or else you end up with a rickety structure that risks collapsing on itself all the time...
I think that's enough metaphors for one post though.
For those with some Conventional stuff and who are interested. This is V1.0....
Ok so there are in a way 3 groups. Global War tech, Post-Crash upgrades of Conventional Stuff and New Stuff
Global War stuff get 2-3 MDC increase from "Upgrades" with the UEDF Technology BUT plan is to make "New" Designs, not upgrades like on an LAV to have an increase of 3-4 over their Pre-Crash technologies....This helps bridge the gap between new and older tech. Cards with a Nuke in the top left are Global War era and the ones with the RDF and Malcontent Symbols are ones upgraded or made using tech from the SDF-1. Infantry take 1 point per 2 troopers before the SDF-1 and 1 each after.
Still a WIP so feel free to make suggestions or ask if you want something added.
JohnHwangDD wrote: PB isn't GW, which controls distribution to prevent global resale. PB doesn't have the same market share as GW's 40k.
Maybe not. But I do know MtG (yes, another behemoth) enforces (for some definition of enforce) street dates.
So, I guess my point is, that after they broke the initial promise (backers before retail), and unilaterally changed it to "backers in country X before retailers in country X", they didn't even stop to consider that it was completely unenforceable, and are now bemoaning the fact that there's apparently nothing illegal, and not even really anything immoral about US distributors doing this, from the distributor's perspective. Either that, or as per the Update, not even recognizing that it's happening.
So, should this be seen as a weakness of credibility (they knew it was never enforceable, but said it anyway), or a weakness of competency (they don't have the legal framework to enforce it, but think they did)? Cause no amount of shifting goalposts changes the fact that there are significant reports of RRT being offered for sale in retail stores in countries that aren't "supposed" to have it.
PB a tiny little monkey, not a 100-ton King Kong like Hasbro WotC is. Hasbro WotC makes the 800-lb GW gorilla look insignificant. Cross WotC, and you're basically done as a store or distributor. PB needs any sales they can get.
PB clarifying things to be on a country or region basis is pretty reasonable - they probably hadn't thought out all of the details of global trade. If you think that they had the international details figured out at the time of the KS, I think that the reality of events to date pretty clearly and conclusively prove you wrong in pretty much every way possible.
There is nothing wrong with grey market sales. Usually, it's not worth the extra hit in distribution cost and effort (like GW Oz). The fact that there are ROW stores who are importing RRT via grey market is a good sign for the game - it suggests there is additional, immediate ROW demand that would not have been satisfied by the regular distribution.
And yet they keep talking like they have an iron clad hand on distribution. Even going so far as saying that people should contact them about stores selling it in 'unreleased' areas.
They're trying to have their cake and eat it to.
And as has been noted, it is particularly hilarious to think that PB would yell at stores for selling their stuff. A company that has apparently struggled to sell stuff for years now.
Oh yay, they have a hit! Oh no, stop selling that hit game outside of North America!
Yeah, sure, right, I'll bet they're all broken up that people are buying their gak.
This last little announcement from PB is rather distressing.
How can Kevin write with such excitement and mention a multitude of things and give zero specifics?
It is an art form above the pale.
Yes, I would like to see many other things to flesh-out the Robotech world but dear lord show that you are finishing off what was originally agreed to be done!
Folks, they have been distracted by something shiny again! Or worse, think that we can be distracted.
This is one of the few forums where you talk about feelings or historical posts, like the company itself, PB has nothing to write about.
Forar wrote: And yet they keep talking like they have an iron clad hand on distribution. Even going so far as saying that people should contact them about stores selling it in 'unreleased' areas.
I'm sure PB will have some very sternly-worded letters sent to those stores. Very stern. Signed by Kevin himself. You can bet on it.
HEY GUYS STOP SELLING STUFF YOU'RE BREAKING STREET DATE thank you for selling our stuff don't stop REALLY YOU MUST STOP THIS OR ELSE WE'LL BE VERY CROSS you have no idea how much we appreciate this, thank you with a Mega-Damage hug (2d4x10 damage +1d6 per level, range 3 feet plus 1 foot per level) TRULY WE CANNOT LET THIS STAND.
Joyboozer wrote: Mike, did Palladium steal all your work and try to use it as a distraction, promising to release it so we don't notice they're doing feth all?
Conventional Stuff?
If that is what you are referring to...no.....not at all. Some guys on my FB page use GHQ. GHQ sometimes gets notes/comments on their page and on their orders and had some for people wanting to use if for RRT. I started making some Conventional cards a ways back for fun. Had some requests and had done a bit more. A few told GHQ that they should contact me. I spoke to them and suggested the sale to gauge interest. They liked the idea and I posted it on my site. They sent me some goodies as a thank you. They then wanted help contacting PB so I gave them PB's office # and since then they have spoken. Obviously PB is interested in what I have done so far for conventional stuff and stats. That's about it.
Do they ever do any original thinking or do they simply ride coat tails for every idea?
Maybe rather than worrying about adding conventional units (which you can pretty much get anywhere) they should finish getting wave one out to the rest of the world and when that's done maybe get working on wave two?
Not at all....PB asked me not to do the dice....they wanted to make the $......GHQ asked me to put them into contact with PB and had already asked me how to integrate the two and I told them I'd be willing to make cards for whatever units they needed them for. Very different.
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stanman wrote: Do they ever do any original thinking or do they simply ride coat tails for every idea?
Maybe rather than worrying about adding conventional units (which you can pretty much get anywhere) they should finish getting wave one out to the rest of the world and when that's done maybe get working on wave two?
Sining wrote: But did Scum and Villainy have mouthwatering detail?
Yes, yes it does.
Not cheap that stuff but why do I feel that is ok?
Not quite same feeling looking at RRT stuff on market but the $12 battleoid sale was awesome, opposed to $24 at regular price or $33 at the PB site.
Not at all....PB asked me not to do the dice....they wanted to make the $.......
And yet they haven't said even one word about producing some Malcontent dice since they last talked to you. Somehow I get the feeling that if they ever get around to doing said dice they'll be "mouth watering" in their detail, much like the token, templates and dice that they entirely dropped the ball on.
Right now I'm completely convinced that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing and that they also get distracted by the shiny more than the crows in my area.
Not at all....PB asked me not to do the dice....they wanted to make the $.......
And yet they haven't said even one word about producing some Malcontent dice since they last talked to you. Somehow I get the feeling that if they ever get around to doing said dice they'll be "mouth watering" in their detail, much like the token, templates and dice that they entirely dropped the ball on.
Right now I'm completely convinced that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing and that they also get distracted by the shiny more than the crows in my area.
The dice is the thing, IF I did do them then they could not do them later unless I gave them the go ahead, which I would have done anyways, since I could say they are stepping on my IP. If I had called them Fist dice or something I might have been able to do them without worry. I did do a small batch just the same. I agree it's dumb but IP laws are not always smart.
Not at all....PB asked me not to do the dice....they wanted to make the $.......
And yet they haven't said even one word about producing some Malcontent dice since they last talked to you. Somehow I get the feeling that if they ever get around to doing said dice they'll be "mouth watering" in their detail, much like the token, templates and dice that they entirely dropped the ball on.
Right now I'm completely convinced that they have absolutely no idea what they're doing and that they also get distracted by the shiny more than the crows in my area.
The dice is the thing, IF I did do them then they could not do them later unless I gave them the go ahead, which I would have done anyways, since I could say they are stepping on my IP. If I had called them Fist dice or something I might have been able to do them without worry. I did do a small batch just the same. I agree it's dumb but IP laws are not always smart.
Another strange thing about IP laws here in the USA is that you can allow people to use your IP with licensing fees, at least if you actually hold the original IP copyright.
The latest update is out and it actually has wave two proof of life! It seems like a mixed bag in that they took some advice (one piece valkyrie heads) but completely ignored other comments (like molding the gnerl canopy separate so that it doesn't have an ugly seam down the center).
warboss wrote: The latest update is out and it actually has wave two proof of life! It seems like a mixed bag in that they took some advice (one piece valkyrie heads) but completely ignored other comments (like molding the gnerl canopy separate so that it doesn't have an ugly seam down the center).
...they've cut up the Ghost right along the fething sensors.
Glad to see an Update with SOME evidence. Though there's still a crapton of stuff that needs to be done for Wave 2 to be done (FPA/MPA/SValk/AValk/VEF/V1D/MAC2/YF4/ZInf/Rick/Roy/Khyron/Miriya) plus the resin components. But it's a good start, with promises of more.
Of course, that didn't stop them from delving into their usual wankery.
I've been promising Wave 2 updates and pictures for a while now, but it has taken me so long to start posting them, some have begun to express some doubts. I’m sorry about that; there’s no reason you guys should ever feel in the dark so much that you start to worry about whether we’re even working on this stuff. Well, we are.
And it's nice to see. If only you had the ability to allay those fears. Oh, you do. By not waiting six weeks to post what you promised would be a week. Seriously, they want to absolve themselves of responsibility for being the CAUSE of those concerns? Feth me.
ALL Wave Two pieces are either done or in active development. But pictures are worth more than words, so here you go.
Of course, "done". Is there any word that's been used so frequently that doesn't mean what we think it should mean? Does that mean the digital files are done? The sprue layouts are done? The test sprues are done? That it's ready for actual manufacture? Simply put, for something so simple and direct, is used in such a vague manner to be absolutely worthless. How many times was the rulebook, or any other component "done", only to find out no, it in fact, wasn't.
Regarding the actual components, mixed bag. As Warboss mentions, bisecting canopies and gunbarrels (Gnerls) is straight up dumb. Ironically, it'd be a much better model if the canopy and nose mount were seperate pieces. They fix things (cutting parts count) in all the wrong ways. I'm kinda hoping noone at PB notices the G-E's swoosh mount is a placeholder, and it gets molded like that. I don't have enough knowledge re the Lancer, but apparently they're taking liberties with that. And the Jotun, I'm curious if those arms going to be bisected, or not.
I'm glad they posted an Update, but as has been said quite a few times, they've got a long way to go before they should be given any benefit of the doubt.
"Any resemblance between our model and an actual Lancer is purely coincidental"... did they mistakenly ask for a super deformed chibi version, or what?
totalfailure wrote: "Any resemblance between our model and an actual Lancer is purely coincidental"... did they mistakenly ask for a super deformed chibi version, or what?
I expect a WKoPB will be along shortly to explain how that is actually how the Lancer is supposed to look. What you think you saw in the books and TV show were just skewed perspective or something.
I couldn't help to notice also how the Ghost has changed from the kickstarter and now also have strayed from the source material, notice how the upper wings now are attached to the (now rounded) air intake and not the misshaped main body ;
A split down the middle is common for aircraft in the model world.
Typically the cockpit is glued down over top so it does not have a seam there.
The straight leg for the mechs are still irritating, a small socket of some kind at the knee for posing would be such a plus.
I hope the Glaug "Booster" version they did a centre-of-gravity check: the mounting point looks tippy.
At the very least the Lancer "wing" needs to be much closer to the body: it looks like a badly done helicopter otherwise.
Surprised gun on nose of gnerl was not fully molded rather than split: just follow side of front nose cone of fighter and no strange alignment issues.
<edit> Whoops! no kidding about the Ghost intake, square and boxy looks like muscle, not the round intake... nononono
Good "bones" all things considered but some fixing truly needed.
I am a wee bit worried that they are only this far along and parting lines for the molds are still being hammered out.
I suppose I should be happy to hear anything at all...
PB had me believing that neither the ghost nor the Lancer had ever had a model done for it before. Good to know that's not the case, as I like to collect larger models (like the old Revell Robotech models)
I can't really tell you why I am here. I know next to nothing about Robotech, and have no interest in it, but I keep tabs on big kickstarters for fun. It looks like that is some sort of an aircraft they decided to split down the middle for molding. So there will just be a giant seam down the middle of the model? How awful. My condolences to all involved.
Gallahad wrote: I can't really tell you why I am here. I know next to nothing about Robotech, and have no interest in it, but I keep tabs on big kickstarters for fun. It looks like that is some sort of an aircraft they decided to split down the middle for molding. So there will just be a giant seam down the middle of the model? How awful. My condolences to all involved.
A drive-by posting, at least you mean well.
Tradition is to cap a cockpit canopy on top to remove the need for a seam (most model aircraft).
I am unsure it will be all that giant a seam where the model would be maybe 1 1/2" at the most.
How DO they cram a 10 meter (minimum) tall Zentradi into those things or a Reguld at 15.1 meters?
For reference a VF-1S Veritech is 12.7 meters tall and Britai is 13.5.
The scale is truly interesting, Wave 2 Zentradi troops will be fun to see for scale.
A friend told me he had received notification that his Wave 1 was on the mail and scheduled to arrive next wednesday. So it seems that the EU shipping has started.
Talizvar wrote: How DO they cram a 10 meter (minimum) tall Zentradi into those things or a Reguld at 15.1 meters?
Same way my 6'3" frame crams into the back of a Civic once in a while; hunched over and hoping we're not going on a lengthy road trip.
Also keep in mind that this is a clone army bred for war as disposable shock troops. I doubt pilot comfort is remotely considered beyond what is necessary to not impact their ability to fight, especially in mass produced and equally disposable mechs.
Albertorius wrote: A friend told me he had received notification that his Wave 1 was on the mail and scheduled to arrive next wednesday. So it seems that the EU shipping has started.
We're starting to see delivery reports in the UK, so yeah, EU distribution has begun, and they recently said that Australian shipping would be underway in the next few weeks.
"ROW" packages were 'about to ship' as of February 21st, so one would hope (but with PB, obviously not expect) that those should be underway as well.
Confirm UK and EU delivery is underway - finally got my hands on the boxes on Saturday.
Lots of plastoc and dark looks from my better half - the lads were bouncing though. Did not have the heart to tell them it might still be a week or so before we can get a game going, beyond the tny intro scenario.
Yeah, learned a few things with assembly.
Those splits in the legs really do need filler, paint does little to mask the gaps.
Pods primed real nice, the gosh-darn UEDF models must have some extra fun mold release, it was going on like I added flow-aid or something.
Next time I will use a stronger cleaner/solvent.
Had to take a stiff brush to it to clean up the strange pooling, at least added more tooth so the first paint coat went on nice.
So primed 35 UEDF models, and 30 Zents.
All UEDF bases are painted a first coat, 2 Valk. squadrons have the initial block coat on them (24 models).
All excited now since I can envision the final result despite my impatience at shin-gap-filling and poor primer coating.
Oddly, doing the tiny fiddly details is OK with me when block painting is done with airbrush.
I would have lost my mind trying to cover all the strange angles with classic brush application.
Right now it all looks rough due to the initial stages but in about a week I think it will all look awesome even with my impatient execution.
Due to the small size, brush painting really looks good, no large flat surfaces to show-up brush strokes.
Still undecided on what to do for detail on the bases, I went to a darker grey to hint at pavement and not be too jarring for space/moon environment.
Since 1mm = about 1 foot in scale (nice mixing of measurement systems on my part!) I am hesitant to add much gravel to a base, it would be some serious rubble.
Don't worry, they're rectifying that by having the Gnerl (which also doesn't have legs) have a solid split down the middle through the canopy to make up for it.
Talizvar wrote: Since 1mm = about 1 foot in scale (nice mixing of measurement systems on my part!) I am hesitant to add much gravel to a base, it would be some serious rubble.
Talizvar wrote: Since 1mm = about 1 foot in scale (nice mixing of measurement systems on my part!) I am hesitant to add much gravel to a base, it would be some serious rubble.
Jaymz is working on a WIKI to organize and post all the extra goodies that have been done over time. It's still a WIP. Facebook has it's good and bad, forum have their good and bad, wikis have their good and bad. Hopefully combining all 3 we get the best of all 3 in the process.
Talizvar wrote: Since 1mm = about 1 foot in scale (nice mixing of measurement systems on my part!) I am hesitant to add much gravel to a base, it would be some serious rubble.
Talizvar wrote: Since 1mm = about 1 foot in scale (nice mixing of measurement systems on my part!) I am hesitant to add much gravel to a base, it would be some serious rubble.
Talizvar wrote: Since 1mm = about 1 foot in scale (nice mixing of measurement systems on my part!) I am hesitant to add much gravel to a base, it would be some serious rubble.
Sand and talcum powder?
This would be a good spot for the "not sure if serious" meme.
Serious. PVA, with a sprinkling of sand and talcum powder.
Well, here is what I have so-far.
Going to my FLGS with my army and see if the 40k crowd is willing to try something different.
Will be using the "cheat sheets" Mike provided to help with getting the uninitiated up to speed.
Doing my part I guess, these models will only get better as I continue.
Velejo model air is awesome by the way.
Talizvar wrote: Well, here is what I have so-far.
Going to my FLGS with my army and see if the 40k crowd is willing to try something different.
Will be using the "cheat sheets" Mike provided to help with getting the uninitiated up to speed.
Doing my part I guess, these models will only get better as I continue.
Velejo model air is awesome by the way.
good luck with that, might be able to find a player or two to play with already assembled models, but finding someone willing to spend money and then build the minis is a long stretch.
Asterios wrote: good luck with that, might be able to find a player or two to play with already assembled models, but finding someone willing to spend money and then build the minis is a long stretch.
What is with all the bad vibes and negativity?
It is like candy or drugs: free samples!
(Kelly's Heroes)
Anyone want to know how NOT to put those models together, how NOT to prime and how NOT to put Dropzone Commander buildings together, give me a PM.
Finally figured out how to do the tops of those buildings properly where they are solid, think I got all the glue off my fingers after figuring that out.
Oddly, at this stage it all will be actually pleasant.
The details will be nice and with little work will look awesome and that is not me being a bragger, getting to this stage is the hard part.
Painting a few canopies, guns / gun barrels, missiles, metal bits, lenses... just getting some red on the appropriate spots will stand out nice.
Anyone who would enjoy playing Zentradi would be the easiest build to do.
Or an all destroid army.
Unfortunately I feel a need to make 2 more squadrons of Veritech fighters... silly, silly, silly.
Forar wrote: If you're looking for more VTs, I have 4 (1 squad worth) for sale cheap.
You had to say that...
Darn candy and drug little plastic toys...
We should arrange a game and sold product all in one go, I tend to like pick-up rather than delivery.
21st weekend? Are you Game??
I could head out to the big Toronto.
We can continue this with a PM so I can find out how cheap...
You realize that bitching about the canopies likely gets Palladium to make the canopy into an extra piece, right? Is that what you want? Is it?
I certainly hope so... at this point, one piece more or less won't break the camel's back, and in the particular case of the Gnerl, it doesn't even have that many to begin with.
I'd rather bitch about the proportions, as a fix there would at least look better.
There's that too, of course, but it's not an issue with the Gnerl we've seen (and I've bitched about the proportions of the Lancer and the Ghost, too)... and seriously, a seam right down the middle of a whole clear cockpit is... well
I just got this weekend the Wave 1 of my Showdown, and I almost can't believe I did. The good thing is that it seems that the stuff that's there looks rather nice, all in all, once assembled, and fixed. The bad... holy gak that's a holy lot of crap.
The guys that were interested on buying took a look at the boxes and after that they were all... "well, nope, I'd rather not. I'll buy some for Battletech, but I think I'd rather not do Robotech, thanks. They look nice, though".
So I guess I'll have to wait to play until I assemble my gak. Maybe by this time next year.
Albertorius wrote: The guys that were interested on buying took a look at the boxes and after that they were all... "well, nope, I'd rather not. I'll buy some for Battletech, but I think I'd rather not do Robotech, thanks. They look nice, though"
That is pretty much what I am seeing in a nutshell. I got to my FLGS a bit too late to start a game on the 40k night but got a few interested after this setup:
People see the work and back away, but are happy to play something set up.
It is harder than I thought to stay within the various lines for painting the Veritechs but the pods are painting up real easy.
Once I have a decent amount painted (month tops: Comicon next weekend, Hotlead the next...) I will post a "come play" night and see if that works out better.
That one box is STILL sitting there at the FLGS, the owner got all excited when I set up, thinking there may be a hope to move some product... I think this may be just toying with his emotions.
– Available now in the USA, Canada, European Union, Australia and New Zealand
If you love Robotech®, you’ll want to take a look at this game. Beautifully detailed game pieces of your favorite Robotech® mecha, and fast playing rules that capture the Robotech® experience in a new, exciting way. And this is just the beginning. We have so much more planned. Available NOW – in game stores across the USA and Canada. Available in stores in the UK, European Union, Australia and New Zealand soon.
Available now in the USA, Canada, European Union, Australia and New Zealand.
or
Available in stores in the UK, European Union, Australia and New Zealand soon.
So which is it?
(I'm guessing the second one but lets bold face the first for all the fanboy sheep so they'll believe that one)
Should be the former (US, not UK), given that I have seen RRT in my local store - they had multiple copies for Black Friday, fewer on the shelf when I left compared to when I arrived.
You realize that bitching about the canopies likely gets Palladium to make the canopy into an extra piece, right? Is that what you want? Is it?
I certainly hope so... at this point, one piece more or less won't break the camel's back, and in the particular case of the Gnerl, it doesn't even have that many to begin with.
I'd rather bitch about the proportions, as a fix there would at least look better.
There's that too, of course, but it's not an issue with the Gnerl we've seen (and I've bitched about the proportions of the Lancer and the Ghost, too)... and seriously, a seam right down the middle of a whole clear cockpit is... well
I just got this weekend the Wave 1 of my Showdown, and I almost can't believe I did. The good thing is that it seems that the stuff that's there looks rather nice, all in all, once assembled, and fixed. The bad... holy gak that's a holy lot of crap.
The guys that were interested on buying took a look at the boxes and after that they were all... "well, nope, I'd rather not. I'll buy some for Battletech, but I think I'd rather not do Robotech, thanks. They look nice, though".
So I guess I'll have to wait to play until I assemble my gak. Maybe by this time next year.
The Valkyrie fighter & Gerwalk canopies were opaque, so why would you expect clear canopies for the other fighters?
Anyhow, the Ghost and Lancer look awful. The seam is the least of their problems.
Albertorius wrote: The guys that were interested on buying took a look at the boxes and after that they were all... "well, nope, I'd rather not. I'll buy some for Battletech, but I think I'd rather not do Robotech, thanks. They look nice, though"
That is pretty much what I am seeing in a nutshell. I got to my FLGS a bit too late to start a game on the 40k night but got a few interested after this setup:
People see the work and back away, but are happy to play something set up.
It is harder than I thought to stay within the various lines for painting the Veritechs but the pods are painting up real easy.
Once I have a decent amount painted (month tops: Comicon next weekend, Hotlead the next...) I will post a "come play" night and see if that works out better.
That one box is STILL sitting there at the FLGS, the owner got all excited when I set up, thinking there may be a hope to move some product... I think this may be just toying with his emotions.
Congrats on the progress since I last peeked in (unlike the kickstarter comments that I also peeked at today and instantly regretted doing). It's good to see something come of the purchase for you and good luck getting a local scene going. It looks like a nice setup; I'm biased though as it is very similar to the one I bought/built going on two years ago in prep for this KS! I assembled and converted a 40k crisis suit this weekend so maybe I'll eventually get out of my hobby funk and put some robotech stuff together as well. If you can, take and post pics of the game via a battle report like mike used to do. I'd recommend using Comic Life if you've got a few bucks to spare as it's a (IMO) cool format for stompy robot battle reports (see the spoiler below for an example).
NTRabbit wrote: So they're available now in Australia, and I don't have my wave 1 shipment yet?
They can't even keep to their "revised" promises.
Well, to be fair, they do seem to have no idea what they're doing. Oh wait, that's not really a good excuse. I'm sure if Kevin were pushed for an answer, he'd find someone else to throw under a bus.
They aren't being very specific (I'm shocked! Shocked, I tells you!), but it could just be a concession that they ARE "now" available in AU through non-PB channels. And that they will "soon" be available in those places through official channels. For whatever definition of "official" you want to use.
Yeah, it's contorted logic, but it's the only logic they have. I'd LOVE to know what the reasoning why on Jan 29, the EU and AU stuff was underway, and yet in the intervening 8 weeks, they haven't shipped RoW ("and should start shipping to our Australian Kickstarter backers and the rest of the world in another week or so."). The Australian thing, I get. The product is en-route. Why hold back on shipping RoW (which is being direct)? Did/do they not have stock on hand? Are they afraid the Aus/EU backers would be upset?
Cause that second one isn't going to be any worse if a couple of RoWers got theirs a little earlier, if it was sent after AU/EU was underway, and it just seems to show further contempt for non-North American backers. A week or two to physically/mentally reset? Sure. 8 weeks and counting? Meh.
Well, the powerfull and the insane have one thing in common. They don't change their views to fit the facts, they change the facts to fit their views.
I'll leave it up to each individual to decide for themselves which camp Kev and Co are in.
I also don't understand why shipping did not go Domestic, Continental US (So that's the states first, then Canada/South America), Package AU and arrange shipping, Package EU and arrange shipping, Ship ROW as soon as everything else is packed and waiting.
Why wait until everyone else has received their rewards - especially when you can buy them from US retailers and get them delivered quicker than KS can get rewards to backers?
I still think they ought to have taken shipping times into account and sent AU, EU, Continental US & ROW together, then finished with Domestic. The domestic would still have got there first, followed by Canada/South America, then ROW, then EU and AU would still have been last, but at least the time difference between States and AU would have been minimised and much good will could have been had.
Still, it's not Christmas so Kev probably isn't thinking about good will. Wonder if the situation will change if it gets to this Christmas before wave 2 gets out.
133 days until Gencon.
254 days until Black Friday (according to some site I google'd).
Because we know that when push comes to shove, sales targets are what really get them moving.
Wave one had more figures per Battle Cry (70 vs 27 in wave 2), but way fewer different sprues to produce. Last year they started punching plastic in late June/early July and missed a mid August Gencon. This year Gencon is in late July. Guess we'll know in the next month or two how important they feel it is to have something new to sell.
And as Morgan has pointed out, I wouldn't call something that has been at retail for 9 months "new", in regards to actually having product for sale.
warboss wrote: Congrats on the progress since I last peeked in (unlike the kickstarter comments that I also peeked at today and instantly regretted doing).
Thanks! I unfortunately approached it as "I don't care how fiddly it is: drink, play loud music, do whatever it takes to get it playable!!!"
It's good to see something come of the purchase for you and good luck getting a local scene going.
Yeah, fickle bunch that, the better it looks the more that take interest: hence the finish painting push.
It looks like a nice setup; I'm biased though as it is very similar to the one I bought/built going on two years ago in prep for this KS!
Yeah, working on the first three buildings I definitely figured out how not to put those together.
I assembled and converted a 40k crisis suit this weekend so maybe I'll eventually get out of my hobby funk and put some robotech stuff together as well.
Shifting from one stompy robot to another. Start with the destroids, the look really cool for the least amount of fussing, thank goodness the Tomahawk was easy.
If you can, take and post pics of the game via a battle report like mike used to do. I'd recommend using Comic Life if you've got a few bucks to spare as it's a (IMO) cool format for stompy robot battle reports (see the spoiler below for an example).
When I get a decent game-in I will do what I can. That Comic Life looks neat I will check it out, I can pretty much make anything I want in Word/Excel/Powerpoint but they all can be clunky.
Yep, hope the backers get everything, I think PB is riding on this so they can say "Awe, gee, we are still shipping out Wave1! You are bugging us on Wave2 already??"
Talizvar wrote: Thanks! I unfortunately approached it as "I don't care how fiddly it is: drink, play loud music, do whatever it takes to get it playable!!!"
So your tip is to numb multiple senses in order to put together those mouthwatering models? Got it. I could see that going badly if you're a mean drunk (breaking news: Man arrested in downtown Toronto threatening bystanders with a tiny 1/2" gun screaming "Seams... seams.. they're everywhere!" while standing on one leg. More at 9pm.)
Yeah, working on the first three buildings I definitely figured out how not to put those together.
I'd probably recommend that folks don't actually glue them. I did and it made storage alot more difficult. If you're not planning on putting multiple large models on each roof then just the friction fit should be fine visually and they'll be alot easier to pack away.
Shifting from one stompy robot to another. Start with the destroids, the look really cool for the least amount of fussing, thank goodness the Tomahawk was easy.
Ironically, I actually modelled the crisis suit with one leg up similar to 1/2 the battloids out there. It wasn't on purpose and I didn't realize the additional similarity until I made the joke above.
When I get a decent game-in I will do what I can. That Comic Life looks neat I will check it out, I can pretty much make anything I want in Word/Excel/Powerpoint but they all can be clunky.
A fair warning though but that report took me a few hours to put together. Between picking and resizing the pics to fit a turn on each comic "page" to getting the text bubbles to not be too intrusive, it takes a bit longer than just typing it out on a forum post. If you run a small model count game (like my HG one), I'd say it's worth it but not if you run more than a couple dozen. In any case, have fun and good luck! They also have android and IOS versions as well as PC.
Yep, hope the backers get everything, I think PB is riding on this so they can say "Awe, gee, we are still shipping out Wave1! You are bugging us on Wave2 already??"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mike1975 wrote: Peter wanted me to finish these up for him since he's managed to sculpt and print off some Invid minis.
Anyways, my first take now that the official rules are out. Feel free to make suggestions. This is a WIP
Are those minis home printed? Does that help avoid the C&D in combination with obviously not selling them?
Conrad Turner wrote: Well, the powerfull and the insane have one thing in common. They don't change their views to fit the facts, they change the facts to fit their views.
The minis are homemade or rather he did the designs and printed them on shapeways but only for his own use. Personal use cannot be touched by a C and D.
Whelp, another week, another newsletter. Let's see what they have to say;
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
So far, the overwhelming majority of Kickstarter backers and people who have purchased Robotech® RPG Tactics™ are enjoying it. That’s great because we have big plans for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and expanding the game line and gaming experience. As we add to the game line there will be infinite possibilities for battles and adventure, on Earth and on distant planets.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ has been shipping to our European Kickstarter backers for the past week, and many are already getting theirs in the mail.
The other container arrived at port in Australia last week and we anticipate packages starting to get mailed out to our Kickstarter backers and the rest of the world by the end of this week and next.
Much more about our plans for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ in the weeks to follow. Keep having fun building and painting Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game pieces, playing the game, and spreading the word about how much fun this game is to play. The FREE Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Color Guide Resource is available on DriveThruRPG.com along with an ever increasing number of comprehensive building instructions, with more coming in the weeks ahead as we ratchet up the excitement for RRT.
So far, the overwhelming majority of Kickstarter backers and people who have purchased Robotech® RPG Tactics™ are enjoying it.
[Citation Needed]
I'm sure they have it on good authority that 98% of people love it and 2% who claim not to haven't even played it. >.>
Also it's touching they keep including a segment on the game, but there isn't really anything to say. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are plenty of European/Australian/ROWian backers that are plenty annoyed/happy to finally be receiving something, but we're a couple of months into this whole "omg so much to say guys you just don't even know!" routine.
Would it be wrong to say that the "fans" are putting in more work than PB in promoting the game?
I bet during the open house Kevin will not play the game once (or ever has).
It is probably the biggest financial gain they had seen in decades yet they still go "OMG role playing is where it is all at!!".
They are all excited about Invid Invasion and have not realized the fan "thrill" is actually making the most of a poor game launch.
It pains me to echo the latest PB missive but it is great to see other people's stuff getting done.
Forar wrote: The other container arrived at port in Australia last week and we anticipate packages starting to get mailed out to our Kickstarter backers and the rest of the world by the end of this week and next.
Given Adepticon starts Thursday, and PB offices are 5 hours away, so they'll probably leave Wednesday, that likely doesn't leave a lot of staff behind to do the RoW mailings. Still no reason given why they haven't started, 8+ weeks after the last backer shipment left.
So far, the overwhelming majority of Kickstarter backers and people who have purchased Robotech® RPG Tactics™ are enjoying it.
[Citation Needed]
I'm sure they have it on good authority that 98% of people love it and 2% who claim not to haven't even played it. >.>
It's a pretty bald-faced unsubstantiated claim. 5342 backers. Benefit of the doubt, make it 6K after pre-sales and retail. Overwhelming majority IMO is 75%+. So, they are claiming direct knowledge that 4,500+ people are enjoying their game? When less than a quarter of backers* actually made the effort to cast a vote and have a voice in the GenCon Sale Vote. Made worse by the fact that AU/ROW (and an undisclosed number of EU) are backers, and so count, but haven't even received it. It's just such transparent bs that it's funny AND pathetic.
* Correction, it was possibly closer to 30%. Though even that claim admitted to the number being potentially flawed.
Mike1975 wrote: The minis are homemade or rather he did the designs and printed them on shapeways but only for his own use. Personal use cannot be touched by a C and D.
He may have created them with intent of personal use, however he did not print them himself on his own printer. He used a printing service which prints items for profit, which is certainly not personal use. They may not be able to enforce a C&D on him, however they can certainly issue it to shapeways or whatever printing service is supplying him with prints as they are using the designs to make a profit. (even if it's very small)
Mike1975 wrote: The minis are homemade or rather he did the designs and printed them on shapeways but only for his own use. Personal use cannot be touched by a C and D.
He may have created them with intent of personal use, however he did not print them himself on his own printer. He used a printing service which prints items for profit, which is certainly not personal use. They may not be able to enforce a C&D on him, however they can certainly issue it to shapeways or whatever printing service is supplying him with prints as they are using the designs to make a profit. (even if it's very small)
Also, as has been shown often in these kinds of situations, the actual merit of the case often doesn't have much bearing on the issuance of a C&D. Sue first, ask questions in discovery, hope the recipient decides it's not worth the trouble to fight.
Spartan-Kun wrote: 12 more battle pods, 3 more officer/recon pods, 2 heavy arty pods, and 11 veritechs till finished.......then I gotta paint it all......
Wow, that is a lot of stuff! Double pledge? Good job on the building progress!
BTW, if you're still doing Veritechs, if you cut down the Battliod stands, you can have your Gerwalks landing or whatever, like mine on the previous page...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talizvar wrote: Would it be wrong to say that the "fans" are putting in more work than PB in promoting the game?
I bet during the open house Kevin will not play the game once (or ever has).
It is probably the biggest financial gain they had seen in decades yet they still go "OMG role playing is where it is all at!!".
They are all excited about Invid Invasion and have not realized the fan "thrill" is actually making the most of a poor game launch.
It pains me to echo the latest PB missive but it is great to see other people's stuff getting done.
It would not be wrong, though the RRT "fans" are better than the SedWars ones.
RRT is unquestionably the biggest financial gain PB has ever seen. If they don't get Wave 2 squared away, I worry that they will fritter it away on crap like RIFTS.
I am also glad to see stuff built over the past 3 months. The minis do look pretty good once they're built. Can't say that about the proposed Ghost & Lancer models.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I am also glad to see stuff built over the past 3 months. The minis do look pretty good once they're built. Can't say that about the proposed Ghost & Lancer models.
I have gripes with the minis apart from the insane amount of pieces and the bisection placement, but they do look nice enough once assembled and fixed. The Ghost and Lancer, though... stupid bisection and crap looking double whammie FTW.
I bet during the open house Kevin will not play the game once (or ever has).
That would require him learning the rules. Considering he has not done so for the past over 30 years for his flagship RPG products that he ostensibly created to varying degrees, I think the chances of it happening are low. If he does run a RRPGT game, it'll be d10 based house rules with 8 players per side and counts as models (so that destroid is really a veritech). But the hardcore fanbois on their forums will claim it was the best experience evAr!
I am very glad to see that every box of RTT comes with a feedback form which asks how you are enjoying it, and that everyone has submitted their forms back, resulting in a overwhelming number of enjoyment responses.
Thank you Kevin for being an honest, hardworking, handsome, honest, not-lying, not-sleezy, not-shitlording, high-quality, straightforward, honest, not-at-all-gaking-from-every-concievable-orifice individual in your enlightening and truthful newsletter that is not self-serving drivel.
Killionaire wrote: I am very glad to see that every box of RTT comes with a feedback form which asks how you are enjoying it, and that everyone has submitted their forms back, resulting in a overwhelming number of enjoyment responses.
Thank you Kevin for being an honest, hardworking, handsome, honest, not-lying, not-sleezy, not-shitlording, high-quality, straightforward, honest, not-at-all-gaking-from-every-concievable-orifice individual in your enlightening and truthful newsletter that is not self-serving drivel.
Thank you.
I think that is a highly unfair way of describing what he has to say.
It has so little actual content there is no way I could conclude a commitment to anything other the highest quality of not saying anything with the highest word count next to a politician in an election year.
Remember also that the only feedback that counts is what he has personally heard so 98% that have gone un-heard is considered positive and the other 2% he has heard: he only hears what he wants to hear so it is 100% accurate in his mind.
It all makes logical sense when you just change your perspective. (Cannot get enough slaps to simulate the required thinking)
I just want to say that I am enjoying this game so much that it has inspired me to put an entire 40k army and a warmachine army before my RRT stuff in my hobby queue.
Obviously this is because I want to be in the zone when I actually start painting these mouthwatering minis.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
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(Kelly's Heroes)
