True... but this isn't a GW rule you can nitpick. This is what the TOs are writing. So it'll get changed to wounds or hullpoints at some point.
My only hope is that they meant gargantuan creatures - which is still stupid, but not as stupid.
Nope, they've confirmed it. No Gargants allowed anyways.
Its not a bonus for doing 3 hull points/wounds to an MC. It is just a bonus for killing an MC as I read it.
It is going to be a very challenging event for anyone that wants to play Tyranids. They've decided that they want Greentide, Necron Decurion, Centstar and Eldar to win. Mission #2 is so absurdly skewed in favor of deathstars, that I was trying to build a Skytyrant list, but honestly, it is a pretty lame deathstar compared to what other codexes have to offer. I feel like I might be able to build a list that can win mission #1 and #3 (except against centstar, Greentide, Decurion, or Eldar), but would lose #2 to basically everything. Or I could build a list that can win #2, and #3 (except against centstar, Greentide, Decurion, or Eldar), but would lose #1 to basically everything.
True... but this isn't a GW rule you can nitpick. This is what the TOs are writing. So it'll get changed to wounds or hullpoints at some point.
My only hope is that they meant gargantuan creatures - which is still stupid, but not as stupid.
Nope, they've confirmed it. No Gargants allowed anyways.
... Wow.
Its not a bonus for doing 3 hull points/wounds to an MC. It is just a bonus for killing an MC as I read it.
Sure - still means that a Carnifex is 2 KP, a Brood is either 3 or 4 depending on how the calculate it.
It is going to be a very challenging event for anyone that wants to play Tyranids. They've decided that they want Greentide, Necron Decurion, Centstar and Eldar to win. Mission #2 is so absurdly skewed in favor of deathstars, that I was trying to build a Skytyrant list, but honestly, it is a pretty lame deathstar compared to what other codexes have to offer. I feel like I might be able to build a list that can win mission #1 and #3 (except against centstar, Greentide, Decurion, or Eldar), but would lose #2 to basically everything. Or I could build a list that can win #2, and #3 (except against centstar, Greentide, Decurion, or Eldar), but would lose #1 to basically everything.
Yeah. Basically "Bring orks or go home" is what this seems like. I could see Necrons doing well as well.
True... but this isn't a GW rule you can nitpick. This is what the TOs are writing. So it'll get changed to wounds or hullpoints at some point.
My only hope is that they meant gargantuan creatures - which is still stupid, but not as stupid.
I think you're misreading it. It reads "1 Kill Point per... monstrous creature" if you follow the English grammar of a compound sentence. Also, if you clicked on the link, the tournament answered your second remark in the comment section. The tournament clarifies that they meant super heavies and "normal" MCs, NOT gargantuan.
True... but this isn't a GW rule you can nitpick. This is what the TOs are writing. So it'll get changed to wounds or hullpoints at some point.
My only hope is that they meant gargantuan creatures - which is still stupid, but not as stupid.
I think you're misreading it. It reads "1 Kill Point per... monstrous creature" if you follow the English grammar of a compound sentence. Also, if you clicked on the link, the tournament answered your second remark in the comment section. The tournament clarifies that they meant super heavies and "normal" MCs, NOT gargantuan.
That is a dramatic Improvement. Mission #2 is still one of the weaker missions I've ever seen with 3 parts that all favor deathstars, but they stand by it under the logic because teams can somewhat control matchups its ok if they write missions that are crazy unbalanced.
Came in second by 1 point at a local tournament yesterday, losing to Necrons. It was my first game against the new book.
At the end of it I still had all four flyrants alive and well in addition to most of my other forces. He had two 15 man warrior blobs and immortals that Tyrants just cant kill, despite their overwhelming firepower.
My lictors and tyrants had all three annihilation barges destroyed by turn 3. I couldnt focus down both wraith units, 2 and 3 remained. In the end I lost by 1 Big Guns never tire point.
One of my buddies who plays Necron Decurion wanted to see a 5 flyrant list yesterday. We ran ATC mission #2. He ran the Wraith formation and the Destroyer formation. I managed to kill the wraiths for 1st blood, but then Spent the rest of the game trying for warlord (The Warlord was with 8 Immortals at the start). I manged to kill the immortals, but the warlord just switched over to a group of destroyers. Meanwhile, on turn #1, I lost 2 flyrants, on turn 2, I lost my Venoms, and all 3 lictors, and took a few wounds on a flyrant. Turn 3 I lost my bastion, my Mawloc, and my wounded flyrant. Turn 4 both of my remaining flyrants were taken down to one wound, but made their grounding test, and I lost 4 of my 6 Rippers. Turn 5, I lost my last 2 flyrants, and was only not tabled by keeping 2 rippers out of LOS.
Our kill totals were obscene.
I only killed 6 Wraiths, 2 Destroyers, 8 Immortals, and 3 Warriors netting me a total of 2 Kill points. He got 11 Kill points from me (would have been 17 if MC's still gave bonuses). He got max points except for 1st blood. I do not know how Tyranids will ever compete against certain decurion builds such as the T5 spam I faced. If I ran a hoard list I could have tied it all up, and waited for the game to end, but I just have no idea how to ever kill any sizable amount of it. I feel like add this to Tau as armies that invalidate the Tyranid Codex.
I'm going to a 'friendly' tournament up against what will be Adlance, Tau (FBSC), DE, Raptors, AM w/ Baneblade, Chaos, Blood Angels and want to give them a run for their money Have no idea how to improve it though. Missions would be one objective in each deployment zone and Relic (mandatory First Blood, StW, Linebreaker)
The Rending Claws were leftover but I have no idea how to spend the points..I've actually got 10 pts left as it is..
1250 is a tough points value because a true TAC list really doesn't exist for many armies. More likely than not, you will be lacking in one or more areas.
It typically is better to tailor your list to the mission and make it as close to TAC as possible while not being as mindful of any particular player, as even with a small tournament, you aren't guaranteed to draw him/her.
This is actually easier for Tyranids than most other armies. With Nids, you can null deploy quite reliably (which is spectacular for EW, and it sounds like that's what the missions are). All you need is a ton of spores/mucolids. I would want a minimum of 7/8 units to be sure that you're ok until your reserves come in, but really you just need to have a single unit alive at the end of turn 1. If you want to go the Comms relay route (recommended) then more like 9/10 would be better, as you still want a unit to be able to man it, otherwise you won't gain the benefit.
Well I went to the tournament and did ok. I went 2-1. I have to say a com's relay would have helped in one game. I did the rerolls to see and it would have helped amazingly.
The list worked amazing well. It hits hard and is very adaptable. The first game I had the worst luck on reserves roll that I have ever had. I didn't get 4 units in the 2nd turn 2 tyrants and two fex. Playing white scars this hurt. To make matters worse, I mishap on the first roll and get sucked in to the warp. I had two units come in every turn after; Even coming piecemeal I lasted tell turn 6. Over all I played a uphill game but was in it tell the last turn. I did underestimate hw hard it is to kill 5 spore units turn 1. Even with no cover for half of the units. I had only a 5+ or a 3+ cover save. As the table was the worst possible with no real cover except in the center of the table.
Even coming in piece by piece I left him with only 8 bikes and two fliers. It was a good game and loss.
Next two games things came in on average and I just overwhelmed both a sm salamander army and a AM army. I got 3rd place out 12 people.
Was fun and I learned a lot.
I will be dropping one Mawloc maybe two for a ADL with coms. and something else. Likely a malanthrope. The Mawlocs didn't do a thing but come in and miss and die in every game.
If I drop the second Mawloc I am not sure what to pic up. If I drop it I may go 3 biovores. It would give me a few points left to spend.. What you think? Are biovores better then one Mawloc?
I like Biovores, tasty Barrage lets me snipe characters. I'd always take it in Living Artillery though as I'm notorious for scattering way off.
Thanks luke for the input, I'l revise my list when I've got some time.
So here's an interesting question - what's the best way to beat Nids with Nids? I'm thinking going second, hug cover and then Vector Strike the Flyrants that come my way and dakka from behind?
It seems like every time I play against Grey Knights it ends up as a Purge the Alien mission.
I hate 2+ saves. I have them more when I fire 48 shots at a Dreadknight and do 3 wounds on turn 1... then spend the rest of the game firing at least one MC at him every turn and he never takes another wound.
His Stormraven only lost 2 Hull Points to 36 devourers (didn't Jink) and died the following turn to a Warp Lance - it crashed onto the Dreadknight from hell and of course, that wound was saved as well.
One Terminator unit made 27 2+ saves in one turn - I needed him to fail 2 before his Libby started having to roll and he made them all.
I hate 2+ saves. With a passion. Against other armies I could get into CC and try my luck there - but against GK they'll just Force me out of there.
Once an enemy Libby made 27 saves (an then died, but he tanked the shooting of 3 Flyrants). But to be fair he had failed like the 75% of all his 3+ previous saves (the Libby was his only model with a 2+).
No - I don't typically run one, and this was a league where I didn't know my opponent before I turned in a list.
I have two, just not a huge fan of the model. Plus, in non-KP games I get really good results from simple weight of fire. For some reason that doesn't carry over to KP games.
Wilson wrote: I put this list together to with the intention to a. force target priority and b. be strong with maelstrom grabbing - i used it on Tuesday vs Deldar and Harlequin jet bike army ( Harlequin jet bikes are pretty pokey and durable!) and annihilated the dude by Turn 4. I'm looking to tweak it for a 1750 pt comp in the middle of April and wondered if anyone else had any experience ( PS i've finally fielded Sky Tyrant and it's awesome- at least for that one game!)
Just as an FYI comp is primary maelstrom with a secondary of the usual First strike, Warlord and line breaker. ( no eternal war mission for some reason.)
1750 2 sources - 1 CAD or equivalent and 1 allies/ formation. No CTA allies. LOW restricted to 400 pts max.
so on with the list;
Spoiler:
Leviathan Detatchment
Flyrant - Electroshock, Devourers x 2
Flyrant - Electroshock, Devourers x 2
Deathleaper
Since you know that you will be playing Maelstrom missions, I'd go with more ground scoring units. Drop 1 hive crone and swap out for 3x3 DS Rippers (or perhaps hormagants) and then add more gargoyles to your SkyTyrant formation. You want to force target prioritization? You need more units that can score objectives, not less.
shadowfinder wrote: I been talking to a guy in the area that's thinking about running a 1850 highlander tournament. I love the concept but I have yet to play it. Sounds like you get to see some fluffy list that are used creatively for some armies at lest.
It got me thinking about what to bring for my Tryanids. Honestly I know what I bring but I not sure if it would be all that competitive. Then again it could be very good. Since the hard counters that you normally see are not there as much either.
What do you guys think? Does Highlander bring a interesting challenge to list building for Tyranids?
Has any one played Highlander with Tyranids yet? How was it? What where your incite from doing so?
Honestly, I don't think Tyranids will fare very well in Highlander missions, at least not against the good armies. Yes, it definitely will be a challenge to build a great Highlander TAC list.
Iechine wrote: Came in second by 1 point at a local tournament yesterday, losing to Necrons. It was my first game against the new book.
At the end of it I still had all four flyrants alive and well in addition to most of my other forces. He had two 15 man warrior blobs and immortals that Tyrants just cant kill, despite their overwhelming firepower.
My lictors and tyrants had all three annihilation barges destroyed by turn 3. I couldnt focus down both wraith units, 2 and 3 remained. In the end I lost by 1 Big Guns never tire point.
Lack of AP makes putting them down hard.
Yeah, a 4+ followed by another 4+ is better than a 3+ save. A 3+ followed by a 4+ is equivalent to a 2+ save. But as Tyranids, we don't really have much choice. This is what I see we can do against Decurion Necrons:
1. Just massed firepower and focus on 1 unit at a time.
2. Massed mawlocs and hope that they hit. Mawlocs + lictors (in ruins going-to-ground) will actually be a good tactic against Necrons, as they lack methods of ignoring 2+ cover. Just make sure you place the objectives in the ruins with the lictors as well.
3. Assault nids. Skytyrant backed by malanthrope/venomthrope cover can actually be quite effective against standard Necron infantry as long as you can eliminate the wraiths beforehand. Again, watch out for those wraiths and reduce their numbers with massed firepower before assaulting.
tag8833 wrote: One of my buddies who plays Necron Decurion wanted to see a 5 flyrant list yesterday. We ran ATC mission #2. He ran the Wraith formation and the Destroyer formation. I managed to kill the wraiths for 1st blood, but then Spent the rest of the game trying for warlord (The Warlord was with 8 Immortals at the start). I manged to kill the immortals, but the warlord just switched over to a group of destroyers. Meanwhile, on turn #1, I lost 2 flyrants, on turn 2, I lost my Venoms, and all 3 lictors, and took a few wounds on a flyrant. Turn 3 I lost my bastion, my Mawloc, and my wounded flyrant. Turn 4 both of my remaining flyrants were taken down to one wound, but made their grounding test, and I lost 4 of my 6 Rippers. Turn 5, I lost my last 2 flyrants, and was only not tabled by keeping 2 rippers out of LOS.
Our kill totals were obscene.
I only killed 6 Wraiths, 2 Destroyers, 8 Immortals, and 3 Warriors netting me a total of 2 Kill points. He got 11 Kill points from me (would have been 17 if MC's still gave bonuses). He got max points except for 1st blood. I do not know how Tyranids will ever compete against certain decurion builds such as the T5 spam I faced. If I ran a hoard list I could have tied it all up, and waited for the game to end, but I just have no idea how to ever kill any sizable amount of it. I feel like add this to Tau as armies that invalidate the Tyranid Codex.
Ouch! Sounds harsh.
I need to get in a game against the new Necrons with my bugs.
We don't need to tweak it really. Massed devourer shooting will kill any non-2+ MC. Against 2+ MC's, well, I usually ignore those and kill the rest of the army. It just isn't very efficient to shoot at them, unless there isn't another better target.
Or you could run a dimachaeron or 3 in tyrannocyte spore(s). Those things make most enemy MC's run like mad away.
I'm going to a 'friendly' tournament up against what will be Adlance, Tau (FBSC), DE, Raptors, AM w/ Baneblade, Chaos, Blood Angels and want to give them a run for their money Have no idea how to improve it though. Missions would be one objective in each deployment zone and Relic (mandatory First Blood, StW, Linebreaker)
The Rending Claws were leftover but I have no idea how to spend the points..I've actually got 10 pts left as it is..
Heavy Support Carnifex w/ 2x TL Devourers w/ BLW, Deathspitter Tyrannocyte = 225
Exocrine = 170
Really struggling on what I want to field..
List #1 with Leviathan+LAN is the better list, though I wouldn't necessarily call it a "friendly" list.
shadowfinder wrote: Well I went to the tournament and did ok. I went 2-1. I have to say a com's relay would have helped in one game. I did the rerolls to see and it would have helped amazingly.
The list worked amazing well. It hits hard and is very adaptable. The first game I had the worst luck on reserves roll that I have ever had. I didn't get 4 units in the 2nd turn 2 tyrants and two fex. Playing white scars this hurt. To make matters worse, I mishap on the first roll and get sucked in to the warp. I had two units come in every turn after; Even coming piecemeal I lasted tell turn 6. Over all I played a uphill game but was in it tell the last turn. I did underestimate hw hard it is to kill 5 spore units turn 1. Even with no cover for half of the units. I had only a 5+ or a 3+ cover save. As the table was the worst possible with no real cover except in the center of the table.
Even coming in piece by piece I left him with only 8 bikes and two fliers. It was a good game and loss.
Next two games things came in on average and I just overwhelmed both a sm salamander army and a AM army. I got 3rd place out 12 people.
Was fun and I learned a lot.
I will be dropping one Mawloc maybe two for a ADL with coms. and something else. Likely a malanthrope. The Mawlocs didn't do a thing but come in and miss and die in every game.
If I drop the second Mawloc I am not sure what to pic up. If I drop it I may go 3 biovores. It would give me a few points left to spend.. What you think? Are biovores better then one Mawloc?
Get some spore mines (or rippers) to man your ADL comms.
Biovores are a good substitute if you don't want to rely too much on mawlocs. Just make sure you have a source of Synapse in your backfield for them (or not if your main intent for them is to g-t-g behind the ADL).
Malanthrope isn't really necessary for a null deployment list unless you plan to have some backfield units reliant on Synapse, but it will help against most shooty armies (with the exception of Tau and mechdar) if you want to start your flyrants on the table.
Frozocrone wrote: I like Biovores, tasty Barrage lets me snipe characters. I'd always take it in Living Artillery though as I'm notorious for scattering way off.
Thanks luke for the input, I'l revise my list when I've got some time.
So here's an interesting question - what's the best way to beat Nids with Nids? I'm thinking going second, hug cover and then Vector Strike the Flyrants that come my way and dakka from behind?
Here are some tips against Nids:
1. If you run the malanthrope, go 2nd in objectives games. Better to let his flyrants move out of his malanthrope range only to shoot at your flyrants with 2+ cover than to move out of your malanthrope range only to shoot at his flyrants with 2+ cover.
2. Psychic Scream helps a lot against another Tyranid player.
3. As you've already mentioned, vector-strike is another viable tactic against enemy flyrants.
4. Movement blocking. Against a mainly ground Tyranid force, you can use your flyrants/FMC's to impede their progression if necessary just by swooping and placing your models in their movement path.
5. Of course, proper target prioritization goes a long ways.
rigeld2 wrote: It seems like every time I play against Grey Knights it ends up as a Purge the Alien mission.
I hate 2+ saves. I have them more when I fire 48 shots at a Dreadknight and do 3 wounds on turn 1... then spend the rest of the game firing at least one MC at him every turn and he never takes another wound.
His Stormraven only lost 2 Hull Points to 36 devourers (didn't Jink) and died the following turn to a Warp Lance - it crashed onto the Dreadknight from hell and of course, that wound was saved as well.
One Terminator unit made 27 2+ saves in one turn - I needed him to fail 2 before his Libby started having to roll and he made them all.
I hate 2+ saves. With a passion. Against other armies I could get into CC and try my luck there - but against GK they'll just Force me out of there.
Yeah, 2+ is pain-in-the-arse for us. I especially hate playing against Tau with massed riptides and broadsides, probably one of our worst matchups.
What I usually do is to kill the units that I can more efficiently kill. For example, between riptides and broadsides, I will go after the broadsides first because 1) they are just as deadly with their firepower and 2) I am wounding them on 2's as opposed to on 4's for the riptides. Thus, broadsides are easier for me to kill, not to mention that Warp Lance can usually 1-shot them.
Against dreadknights, I almost always ignore them initially and just go after the rest of the army. The only exception is when going up against the centurionstar (or paladinstar), which is much harder to kill than the dreadknight. In that case, the dreadknight will be the threat that is easier to kill (though not actually easy to kill).
So if you go after a "threat", then go after the threat that is easier to take out. Otherwise, just go after the troops.
jy2 wrote: Yeah, 2+ is pain-in-the-arse for us. I especially hate playing against Tau with massed riptides and broadsides, probably one of our worst matchups.
What I usually do is to kill the units that I can more efficiently kill. For example, between riptides and broadsides, I will go after the broadsides first because 1) they are just as deadly with their firepower and 2) I am wounding them on 2's as opposed to on 4's for the riptides. Thus, broadsides are easier for me to kill, not to mention that Warp Lance can usually 1-shot them.
Against dreadknights, I almost always ignore them initially and just go after the rest of the army. The only exception is when going up against the centurionstar (or paladinstar), which is much harder to kill than the dreadknight. In that case, the dreadknight will be the threat that is easier to kill (though not actually easy to kill).
So if you go after a "threat", then go after the threat that is easier to take out. Otherwise, just go after the troops.
That was my plan, but T1 I couldn't get in range of the troops because of the way he deployed, and since I had the DK down to one wound I figured I'd throw one TMC at it - he'd fail a save eventually, right?
-sigh-
jy2 wrote: Yeah, a 4+ followed by another 4+ is better than a 3+ save. A 3+ followed by a 4+ is equivalent to a 2+ save. But as Tyranids, we don't really have much choice. This is what I see we can do against Decurion Necrons:
1. Just massed firepower and focus on 1 unit at a time.
2. Massed mawlocs and hope that they hit. Mawlocs + lictors (in ruins going-to-ground) will actually be a good tactic against Necrons, as they lack methods of ignoring 2+ cover. Just make sure you place the objectives in the ruins with the lictors as well.
3. Assault nids. Skytyrant backed by malanthrope/venomthrope cover can actually be quite effective against standard Necron infantry as long as you can eliminate the wraiths beforehand. Again, watch out for those wraiths and reduce their numbers with massed firepower before assaulting.
Decurion can shrug off mass firepower. That is the key to the effectiveness. 6 Destroyers cost the same as a Flyrant (with standard gear).
To kill a unit of 6 Destroyers in a Decurion it will take a Flyrant 10.13 turns of shooting assuming no Res Orb, and no Overlord buffing them. Meanwhile, for 6 Destroyers to kill a Jinking flyrant, it will take 4.36 turns of shooting. Contrast that to a Skyfire burstide (HBC, TL-Fusion, ECPA, SI, VT). It costs 15 points more than a standard flyrant. It will take a flyrant only 8.43 turns of shooting to kill it, and It will take the burstide 3.49 turns of shooting to kill a jinking flyrant. Compared to Decurion Destroyers, a Riptide w/ FNP is a freaking glass cannon.
To put it another way, if you have 5 Flyrants, and they have 18 destroyers in a decurion. You will need the game to go on to turn 7, and you will need them to roll particularly poorly for you to kill them.
Mawlocs can help a bit, but won't get too far in a 5 turn game. Mawlocs do 1/2 of the damage (or less) against destroyers as they do against Centurions, and unlike centstar, Destroyers have no reason to ever group up unless you manage to assault them.
Assaulting can get you there. As you said, you've got to kill any Wraiths. But you still are going to put much of a dent in decurion. There just aren't enough game turns. Your best bet is to just tarpit it and outscore it, but you still lose on kill points, and it means running a list that can't compete with other armies.
jy2 wrote: Yeah, a 4+ followed by another 4+ is better than a 3+ save. A 3+ followed by a 4+ is equivalent to a 2+ save. But as Tyranids, we don't really have much choice. This is what I see we can do against Decurion Necrons:
1. Just massed firepower and focus on 1 unit at a time.
2. Massed mawlocs and hope that they hit. Mawlocs + lictors (in ruins going-to-ground) will actually be a good tactic against Necrons, as they lack methods of ignoring 2+ cover. Just make sure you place the objectives in the ruins with the lictors as well.
3. Assault nids. Skytyrant backed by malanthrope/venomthrope cover can actually be quite effective against standard Necron infantry as long as you can eliminate the wraiths beforehand. Again, watch out for those wraiths and reduce their numbers with massed firepower before assaulting.
Decurion can shrug off mass firepower. That is the key to the effectiveness. 6 Destroyers cost the same as a Flyrant (with standard gear).
To kill a unit of 6 Destroyers in a Decurion it will take a Flyrant 10.13 turns of shooting assuming no Res Orb, and no Overlord buffing them. Meanwhile, for 6 Destroyers to kill a Jinking flyrant, it will take 4.36 turns of shooting. Contrast that to a Skyfire burstide (HBC, TL-Fusion, ECPA, SI, VT). It costs 15 points more than a standard flyrant. It will take a flyrant only 8.43 turns of shooting to kill it, and It will take the burstide 3.49 turns of shooting to kill a jinking flyrant. Compared to Decurion Destroyers, a Riptide w/ FNP is a freaking glass cannon.
To put it another way, if you have 5 Flyrants, and they have 18 destroyers in a decurion. You will need the game to go on to turn 7, and you will need them to roll particularly poorly for you to kill them.
Mawlocs can help a bit, but won't get too far in a 5 turn game. Mawlocs do 1/2 of the damage (or less) against destroyers as they do against Centurions, and unlike centstar, Destroyers have no reason to ever group up unless you manage to assault them.
Assaulting can get you there. As you said, you've got to kill any Wraiths. But you still are going to put much of a dent in decurion. There just aren't enough game turns. Your best bet is to just tarpit it and outscore it, but you still lose on kill points, and it means running a list that can't compete with other armies.
Well, then, time to break out my Scythed Hierodule flanked by Swarmlord and 2 dimachaerons in spores then.
Oh, and while I'm at it, might as well ally in one of those D-thirsters.
jy2 wrote: Well, then, time to break out my Scythed Hierodule flanked by Swarmlord and 2 dimachaerons in spores then.
Oh, and while I'm at it, might as well ally in one of those D-thirsters.
Demons definitely have the answers available thanks invuls, effective fast assault units, and superior psychic powers. Either of our heirodules can kill Destroyers if they can stay alive. Without a cover save, 6 Destoyers do 3.26 wounds to a heirodule a turn.
Against a Dima coming out of a pod we are talking 8.89 Cover saves for each group of 6 Destroyers. Same for Swarmlord.
My 1st round of LVO was against destoyers in a Decurion. Barbie took them out eventually. Thankfully It was only 9 destroyers and no wraiths.
So with some up dating and playing with points. I think I have come up with my list to play this year in the ITC. I played a tournament with this already without the ADL and with Mawlocs.
I decided to drop them for something that will be more reliable, I hope. Biovores I think are going to be needed vs. the new Necrons. I do gain more kill point in kill points games but I think the trade off is being able to target 3 units if needed. Also if the miss they make more spores that can then attack or block paths.
Spoiler:
+++ New Roster (1850pts) +++
++ Fortifications and Stronghold Assault (2013) (Fortification Detachment) (70pts) ++
I have a 1500 ITC tournament coming up. As I am torn between taking Tyranids or Necrons there, I've decided that perhaps, I can bring both. This is what I am thinking of taking:
jy2 wrote: I have a 1500 ITC tournament coming up. As I am torn between taking Tyranids or Necrons there, I've decided that perhaps, I can bring both. This is what I am thinking of taking:
jy2 wrote: I have a 1500 ITC tournament coming up. As I am torn between taking Tyranids or Necrons there, I've decided that perhaps, I can bring both. This is what I am thinking of taking:
jy2 wrote: I have a 1500 ITC tournament coming up. As I am torn between taking Tyranids or Necrons there, I've decided that perhaps, I can bring both. This is what I am thinking of taking:
Destroyer Lord - Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifters, Warscythe
3x Destroyers
3x Destroyers
3x Destroyers
1x Heavy Destroyer
1500
Looks very intersesting. Will this be enough to push Decurians off of objectives?
Well, I've got more ground firepower than in my regular Tyranid list, and a good portion of it is AP3 firepower. Whether or not that is enough to push Decurians off of objectives, I can't say for sure. But IMO, it's definitely a more shooty list than pure Tyranids, especially at only 1500.
jy2 wrote: I have a 1500 ITC tournament coming up. As I am torn between taking Tyranids or Necrons there, I've decided that perhaps, I can bring both. This is what I am thinking of taking:
Destroyer Lord - Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifters, Warscythe
3x Destroyers
3x Destroyers
3x Destroyers
1x Heavy Destroyer
1500
I would be worried about objectives. I also don't understand all the spores
It should have a better ground presence than my other list with lictors and rippers. The destroyers are arguably much more resilient and they will be an offensive focus as well as opposed to a unit that just hides from the enemy. Also, my Destroyer Lord is actually a viable ground threat against the enemy.
Spores are for if I need to reserve my flyrants from super-shooty armies with 1st turn. Deploy and hide spores. They can also be used to "push back" certain armies like White Scars and massed scouts.
Or I can just swap out all those spores for Fighter Ace on a flyrant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
shadowfinder wrote: So with some up dating and playing with points. I think I have come up with my list to play this year in the ITC. I played a tournament with this already without the ADL and with Mawlocs.
I decided to drop them for something that will be more reliable, I hope. Biovores I think are going to be needed vs. the new Necrons. I do gain more kill point in kill points games but I think the trade off is being able to target 3 units if needed. Also if the miss they make more spores that can then attack or block paths.
Spoiler:
+++ New Roster (1850pts) +++
++ Fortifications and Stronghold Assault (2013) (Fortification Detachment) (70pts) ++
Hive Tyrant (240pts) [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops (45pts) +
Mucolid Spore Cluster (15pts) [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster (15pts) [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster (15pts) [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support (120pts) +
Biovore Brood (40pts) [Biovore]
Biovore Brood (40pts) [Biovore]
Biovore Brood (40pts) [Biovore]
Any thoughts or concerns please feel free to point out. I am trying to make as close to possible a TAC list.
I like it. However, here is 1 change I would make. Drop 1 biovore and 1 unit of spore mines, bump up both spore mine units to 4 instead and add 1 more unit of ObSec rippers. Why?
1. 1 less Heavy Support.
2. Better flexibility with deepstriking rippers.
3. Better at the objective game with the rippers. In your backfield, most likely you will have only 1 objective. You've already got the malanthrope and 2 biovore units to grab those objectives. What you need more of are forward-objective grabbers, hence the rippers. IMO, that is worth the trade-off for 1 last blast.
I too am interested in the size of your gargoyle swarm in the skytyrant formation. I really want to run it, but haven't been able to figure out a really optimal amount of gargoyles.
graywater wrote: I too am interested in the size of your gargoyle swarm in the skytyrant formation. I really want to run it, but haven't been able to figure out a really optimal amount of gargoyles.
20 however I'd suggest 25-30.
Flyrant has OA, LWBS, Talons, Electro and Toxin.
2+ jink + 2+ LOS saves are amazingly good and if there is enough target saturation on the board then it can be quite easy to force the opponent to try and deal with everything else.
Wilson wrote: 2+ jink + 2+ LOS saves are amazingly good and if there is enough target saturation on the board then it can be quite easy to force the opponent to try and deal with everything else.
Do you have a rule of thumb on when to take the Jink vs when to LOS. The last game I took out skytyrant, I Jinked the 1st 4 wounds on my 2+, and failed 2 of them, and then felt insecure the rest of the game, eventually losing my Flyrant to a Destroyer Lord.
I tried a few games running an Aegis with a Malanthrope on a Quad gun as a way to give the Gargoyles a 2+ cover save against my opponent's alpha strike.
graywater wrote: I too am interested in the size of your gargoyle swarm in the skytyrant formation. I really want to run it, but haven't been able to figure out a really optimal amount of gargoyles.
20 however I'd suggest 25-30.
Flyrant has OA, LWBS, Talons, Electro and Toxin.
2+ jink + 2+ LOS saves are amazingly good and if there is enough target saturation on the board then it can be quite easy to force the opponent to try and deal with everything else.
For the record, I think the Malanthrope is the best sniper in our army. I swear, he has done more work with the heavy bolters in my bastion than my flyrants have in a couple games.
That's some terrible luck Tag. Maybe worth giving the flyrant regen in that case since he probably will be able to make effective use of it, and that way you can feel better about taking a wound. That's kind of my rule for the Destroyer Lord I've been running with my Necrons. I give him the phylactery and say "take saves until I can make use of this upgrade" haha. Of course he has a re-rollable 2+ and a 4++ FNP, so I don't have to worry about statistical oddities as much
luke1705 wrote: For the record, I think the Malanthrope is the best sniper in our army. I swear, he has done more work with the heavy bolters in my bastion than my flyrants have in a couple games.
That's some terrible luck Tag. Maybe worth giving the flyrant regen in that case since he probably will be able to make effective use of it, and that way you can feel better about taking a wound. That's kind of my rule for the Destroyer Lord I've been running with my Necrons. I give him the phylactery and say "take saves until I can make use of this upgrade" haha. Of course he has a re-rollable 2+ and a 4++ FNP, so I don't have to worry about statistical oddities as much
There are pleanty of games where I've saved 20+ 2+'s. Its more of an issue of the Tyrant only having 4 wounds.
I would like to put regen on a Skytyrant, tyrant. I really would. I would if he could take crushing claws. But the problem is, for a unit that can be tarpit by basically any dreadnought in the game, and killed dead by a single imperial knight, stacking more points on top of it just seems like a bad idea.
True, he is already rather expensive. But you really don't see a ton of Dreadnoughts on the table nowadays, and I mean that's what Barbie is for
It may not be optimal - I'm just saying that he has quite a good chance to earn those wounds back since he can't be directly allocated to outside of a challenge.
Wilson wrote: 2+ jink + 2+ LOS saves are amazingly good and if there is enough target saturation on the board then it can be quite easy to force the opponent to try and deal with everything else.
Do you have a rule of thumb on when to take the Jink vs when to LOS. The last game I took out skytyrant, I Jinked the 1st 4 wounds on my 2+, and failed 2 of them, and then felt insecure the rest of the game, eventually losing my Flyrant to a Destroyer Lord.
I tried a few games running an Aegis with a Malanthrope on a Quad gun as a way to give the Gargoyles a 2+ cover save against my opponent's alpha strike.
always LOS if the tyrant is the next target and always jink - there is no downside in my eyes.
luke1705 wrote: For the record, I think the Malanthrope is the best sniper in our army. I swear, he has done more work with the heavy bolters in my bastion than my flyrants have in a couple games.
That's some terrible luck Tag. Maybe worth giving the flyrant regen in that case since he probably will be able to make effective use of it, and that way you can feel better about taking a wound. That's kind of my rule for the Destroyer Lord I've been running with my Necrons. I give him the phylactery and say "take saves until I can make use of this upgrade" haha. Of course he has a re-rollable 2+ and a 4++ FNP, so I don't have to worry about statistical oddities as much
There are pleanty of games where I've saved 20+ 2+'s. Its more of an issue of the Tyrant only having 4 wounds.
I would like to put regen on a Skytyrant, tyrant. I really would. I would if he could take crushing claws. But the problem is, for a unit that can be tarpit by basically any dreadnought in the game, and killed dead by a single imperial knight, stacking more points on top of it just seems like a bad idea.
A knight should have lost a fair few HP before getting into CC and would take another d3 HP from electroshock grubs via overwatch. Smash will be take a hp off a turn as well with the 1/6 to cause additional hp. Same applies to a dreadnought.
As for Regen it's an unnecessary quirk. no wounds should be touching the flyrant until all the other bodies are done.
Wilson wrote: always LOS if the tyrant is the next target and always jink - there is no downside in my eyes.
20-30 Gargs won't last too far into the game, and you need those to chain combats together, and eat CC wounds for your flyrant. I was working under the theory that I would tank any group of wounds less than 6 until I took a wound on the flyrant, but maybe you are right. Its a gigantically high target priority, and lots of armies can kill 20-30 gargoyles in one round of shooting.
Wilson wrote: always LOS if the tyrant is the next target and always jink - there is no downside in my eyes.
20-30 Gargs won't last too far into the game, and you need those to chain combats together, and eat CC wounds for your flyrant. I was working under the theory that I would tank any group of wounds less than 6 until I took a wound on the flyrant, but maybe you are right. Its a gigantically high target priority, and lots of armies can kill 20-30 gargoyles in one round of shooting.
with 2+ jink and pottentially fnp ( i run 2 more flyrants so the odds are there to get catalyst on one of them) its a pretty tough unit to remove! Sure there is stuff out there that ignores cover - sms and serpants for one thing but these can be worked around.make Those targets priority number 1 or try reservong the entire swarm.
I'm having some Grey Knight / Sisters of Battle woes.
Grey Knights in general are tough to deal with, I feel like they're a very hard counter to our MCs with 2+5++ and FNP as well as force weapons that ignore our armor and ID us. I realize volume of fire is most likely my best bet against them (termagants) but that's where the sisters come in. No scatter deep striking sisters with dual hand flamers melts gant squads. I also get caught up with a Crusader + DCA + Priest death star. They get to use acts of faith (auto pass thanks to relic on cannonness HQ in squad) to reroll armor saves / invuln saves, or a slew of other stuff. This death star is usually in a Land Raider or Stormraven these days.
Any suggestions? I really don't want to go down the path of min troops in the form of spores or rippers and jamming as many Flyrants in as possible....
Wilson wrote: always LOS if the tyrant is the next target and always jink - there is no downside in my eyes.
20-30 Gargs won't last too far into the game, and you need those to chain combats together, and eat CC wounds for your flyrant. I was working under the theory that I would tank any group of wounds less than 6 until I took a wound on the flyrant, but maybe you are right. Its a gigantically high target priority, and lots of armies can kill 20-30 gargoyles in one round of shooting.
with 2+ jink and pottentially fnp ( i run 2 more flyrants so the odds are there to get catalyst on one of them) its a pretty tough unit to remove!
You jink your Gargoyles? lol. No wonder you think it's a good formation...
Unfortunately, you can't do it.
Wilson wrote: always LOS if the tyrant is the next target and always jink - there is no downside in my eyes.
20-30 Gargs won't last too far into the game, and you need those to chain combats together, and eat CC wounds for your flyrant. I was working under the theory that I would tank any group of wounds less than 6 until I took a wound on the flyrant, but maybe you are right. Its a gigantically high target priority, and lots of armies can kill 20-30 gargoyles in one round of shooting.
with 2+ jink and pottentially fnp ( i run 2 more flyrants so the odds are there to get catalyst on one of them) its a pretty tough unit to remove!
You jink your Gargoyles? lol. No wonder you think it's a good formation...
Unfortunately, you can't do it.
Yeah... I feel like a bit of a dill weed now. Shouldnt listen to people telling you the rules and instead i should really just read my rulebook...
I've tried it in three games, can't say I'm happy with how it perfoms. Feels more like a prison for a Flyrant, than something that give me options. Prone to be charged by an IK, Gargoyles are gone if focused and even when all Gargoyles are gone, the Skyrant can't fly faster than 12".
shadowfinder wrote: So with some up dating and playing with points. I think I have come up with my list to play this year in the ITC. I played a tournament with this already without the ADL and with Mawlocs. I decided to drop them for something that will be more reliable, I hope. Biovores I think are going to be needed vs. the new Necrons. I do gain more kill point in kill points games but I think the trade off is being able to target 3 units if needed. Also if the miss they make more spores that can then attack or block paths.
Spoiler:
+++ New Roster (1850pts) +++
++ Fortifications and Stronghold Assault (2013) (Fortification Detachment) (70pts) ++
Hive Tyrant (240pts) [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops (45pts) +
Mucolid Spore Cluster (15pts) [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster (15pts) [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster (15pts) [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support (120pts) +
Biovore Brood (40pts) [Biovore]
Biovore Brood (40pts) [Biovore]
Biovore Brood (40pts) [Biovore]
Any thoughts or concerns please feel free to point out. I am trying to make as close to possible a TAC list.
JY2 Response:: I like it. However, here is 1 change I would make. Drop 1 biovore and 1 unit of spore mines, bump up both spore mine units to 4 instead and add 1 more unit of ObSec rippers. Why?
1. 1 less Heavy Support.
2. Better flexibility with deepstriking rippers.
3. Better at the objective game with the rippers. In your backfield, most likely you will have only 1 objective. You've already got the malanthrope and 2 biovore units to grab those objectives. What you need more of are forward-objective grabbers, hence the rippers. IMO, that is worth the trade-off for 1 last blast.""""""""
Thanks for the Ideas. Having more Scoring is a good thing. I think I will wait to see how the new rules are going to be to make sure of my list. It is a easy adjustment though. I don't even need to make them deep striking as I need one to hold my back field behind the ADL.
How would this list stack up VS other Tyranid list like your 5 Tyrant list, seans Lit Shame or iNcontrols Barbed List do you think?
Which list would you take and what changes would you make if any? Really struggling. List 3 sounds fun but I know one of my opponent's plays Raptors (and obviously Lias) which really hampers reserve rolls
Which list would you take and what changes would you make if any? Really struggling. List 3 sounds fun but I know one of my opponent's plays Raptors (and obviously Lias) which really hampers reserve rolls
All three are winnable lists, so it comes down to personal "style", I have good luck with Mawloc(s) so I would take the triple Mawlocs, and have a blast. If I was recommending a list, I would suggest the LAN as the best "TAAC" list.
Wilson wrote: Skytyrant is awesome. Took it again for the second time vs 3 wraithknights, 2 serpants , summonseer + bikes and a knight lancer.
tyrant took out 2 wraith knights and the lancer with smash all by itself!
So dope! Highley recommended formation
The jink error nonwithstanding, what sort of list are you fitting the Skytyrant into? The trouble I'm having listbuilding is that a lot of our stuff is either flying, deepstriking or sitting back shooting - meaning the skytyrant swarm is basically going to be the only thing my opponent shoots at, at least until reserves arrive.
Which list would you take and what changes would you make if any? Really struggling. List 3 sounds fun but I know one of my opponent's plays Raptors (and obviously Lias) which really hampers reserve rolls
All three are winnable lists, so it comes down to personal "style", I have good luck with Mawloc(s) so I would take the triple Mawlocs, and have a blast. If I was recommending a list, I would suggest the LAN as the best "TAAC" list.
But Iwould take the "Tremors" list.
You can make all my Mawloc rolls I played with the Mawloc list today, dropping a Mawloc for a Tyrant Guard and a few more Spore Mins and Mucolids as I didn't have the third Mawloc ready - played Tau w/ added Knight.
First turn was sorted but was Seized by Tau, on Hammer and Anvil deployment no less! Causes three wounds on my Warlord, my turn comes, perils and grounds the other Flyrant, which is promptly charged by the Knight on T2, effectively both were dead on T2 while I still had the majority of my army in reserves. Haywire helped a bit and I got a lucky Warp Lance through to get it down to 1 HP but was still tabled T5. Mawlocs did a bit of damage, but one scattered onto impassable terrain and just died instantly. The other killed two Broadsides? But really I think I need more points to make Lictor shame work.
I'll be testing the Living Artillery list on Tuesday to see how it fares
I wasn't aware that the top lists had been posted. This is mostly because I've been assembling some plague drones (so many pieces! It's like the Tyrranocyte all over again!)
997Turbo wrote: I think Adepticon results have been largely glossed over due to the use of unlimited detachments. By any chance do you know the list he was using?
Pretty much, minus the kp mission, I was not a fan of this years champs. Next year I plan on saving a day off and only playing in the team event.
Wilson wrote: Skytyrant is awesome. Took it again for the second time vs 3 wraithknights, 2 serpants , summonseer + bikes and a knight lancer.
tyrant took out 2 wraith knights and the lancer with smash all by itself!
So dope! Highley recommended formation
The jink error nonwithstanding, what sort of list are you fitting the Skytyrant into? The trouble I'm having listbuilding is that a lot of our stuff is either flying, deepstriking or sitting back shooting - meaning the skytyrant swarm is basically going to be the only thing my opponent shoots at, at least until reserves arrive.
The list i used it with was this;
Flyrant fighter ace
flyrant
Deathleaper - warlord
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Lictor
Lictor
Malanthrope
Hive crone
Hive crone
Mawloc
Skytyrant form
Flyerers and mal start on the board, the rest in reserve.
997Turbo wrote: I think Adepticon results have been largely glossed over due to the use of unlimited detachments. By any chance do you know the list he was using?
He posted on TTH:
well i ran 4 flyrants with the usaul loadout. i ran the dimachaeron and the malanthrope and i also ran the zoathrope/nerothrope with the drop pod. i also decided to run the tervigon with the gaunt tax.
997Turbo wrote: I think Adepticon results have been largely glossed over due to the use of unlimited detachments. By any chance do you know the list he was using?
He posted on TTH:
well i ran 4 flyrants with the usaul loadout. i ran the dimachaeron and the malanthrope and i also ran the zoathrope/nerothrope with the drop pod. i also decided to run the tervigon with the gaunt tax.
997Turbo wrote: I think Adepticon results have been largely glossed over due to the use of unlimited detachments. By any chance do you know the list he was using?
Pretty much, minus the kp mission, I was not a fan of this years champs. Next year I plan on saving a day off and only playing in the team event.
Fom what I've read, seems as if some of the the Championship players shifted over to the 40K Friendly, as their attendance increased dramatically as the Championships decreased.
Wilson wrote: Skytyrant is awesome. Took it again for the second time vs 3 wraithknights, 2 serpants , summonseer + bikes and a knight lancer.
tyrant took out 2 wraith knights and the lancer with smash all by itself!
So dope! Highley recommended formation
The jink error nonwithstanding, what sort of list are you fitting the Skytyrant into? The trouble I'm having listbuilding is that a lot of our stuff is either flying, deepstriking or sitting back shooting - meaning the skytyrant swarm is basically going to be the only thing my opponent shoots at, at least until reserves arrive.
The list i used it with was this;
Spoiler:
Flyrant fighter ace
flyrant
Deathleaper - warlord
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Lictor
Lictor
Malanthrope
Hive crone
Hive crone
Mawloc
Skytyrant form
Flyerers and mal start on the board, the rest in reserve.
Honestly, I'm not seeing what Deathleaper brings to this army. I'd recommend dropping him and perhaps a couple of mucolids (if necessary) to bring in another mawloc or perhaps even some ObSec scoring units.
Or you could drop a whole bunch of stuff to bring in a 3rd flyrant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, so the local tournament I was talking about, the Contest of Champions 1500, came and went. I did go, but I ended up not taking my Tyranids (or NecroNids) with me. I'm saving them for a larger event. So instead, I brought a 1500 army with 400-pts of troops and an 1100-pt deathstar.
But as this thread is about Tyranids, I will talk about my opponent instead, who made it to the final round with his bugs. Going into our last game, he and I were the only players remaining with perfect scores (20-pts each). His was the list I was dreading to play and lo and behold, I ended up getting paired against him. This was what he brought:
1500 Tyranids + Skyblight
Tyranid CAD:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Venomthrope
Mucolid
Mucolid
Imperial Bunker
Skyblight:
Dakka Flyrant - Egrubs
Harpy - TL-HVC Harpy - TL-HVC Hive Crone
10x Gargoyles
10x Gargoyles
10x Gargoyles
This matchup, I was the underdog. We were playing objectives and he was going 2nd. He brought FMC-spam. I had no anti-air other than casting Prescience. He brought regenerating MSU to my deathstar. He also got Catalyst on 2 of his flyrants. In all fairness, he should have kicked my ass.
Luck was up and down throughout the game. My librarian died to 2 Perils in a roll, thus giving my opponent my Warlord. His gargoyles glanced 2 of my land speeders to death. Flyrant wiped out 1 unit of combat squad marines when I failed 5 out of 7 3+ saves. He denied 2 crucial powers and I failed a crucial attempt on Turn 5 with Gate of Infinity.
However, I did get lucky as I got 1 Skyfire Nexus for the objectives and he failed to wipe out 1 unit of 5 scouts on an objective when he rolled 3 1's to wound.
In the end, we tied Primary. We tied Tertiary (First Blood, Warlord, Linebreaker). However, I was able to squeak out a win on the Secondaries by just 1-pt in a very closely-fought game.
With that said, I like Tyranids (or Leviathan) + Skyblight and I'm planning on re-visiting that build for my next tournament later in April.
I was just looking at the Bio-artifacts the other day and realised I can finally use the HVC/Stranglethorn Tyrant I have sitting around since 4e.
The Miasma Cannon is not marked the the only one hvy Biocannon limit like the HVC or Stranglethorn, just replaces one set of Talons. So while not an optimal load (not a dakka Flyrant) it does like an interesting toy in a swarm list, especially as it makes wounding high toughness things easy (Looking at you Wraithknight) while still providing WoD for charge defense.
Going to try it out in 1000 pt list. Anyone else looked at this combo?
Skytyrant is awesome. Took it again for the second time vs 3 wraithknights, 2 serpants , summonseer + bikes and a knight lancer.
tyrant took out 2 wraith knights and the lancer with smash all by itself!
So dope! Highley recommended formation
The jink error nonwithstanding, what sort of list are you fitting the Skytyrant into? The trouble I'm having listbuilding is that a lot of our stuff is either flying, deepstriking or sitting back shooting - meaning the skytyrant swarm is basically going to be the only thing my opponent shoots at, at least until reserves arrive.
[spoiler]
The list i used it with was this;
Flyrant fighter ace
flyrant
Deathleaper - warlord
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Lictor
Lictor
Malanthrope
Hive crone
Hive crone
Mawloc
Skytyrant form
Flyerers and mal start on the board, the rest in reserve.
Honestly, I'm not seeing what Deathleaper brings to this army. I'd recommend dropping him and perhaps a couple of mucolids (if necessary) to bring in another mawloc or perhaps even some ObSec scoring units.
Or you could drop a whole bunch of stuff to bring in a 3rd flyrant.
2 Mawlocs and 2 lictors does not work, trust me.
Death leaper gives me a. another lictor i can deploy anywhere on the board and b. he is my warlord in this list, which allows me to play more aggressively with the flyrants and not fear for giving STW.
mucolids are awesome and i'm certainly sticking with 6. the opponent is forced to shoot them down - this helps massively with keeping the flyrants and crone alive.
997Turbo wrote: I think Adepticon results have been largely glossed over due to the use of unlimited detachments. By any chance do you know the list he was using?
He posted on TTH:
well i ran 4 flyrants with the usaul loadout. i ran the dimachaeron and the malanthrope and i also ran the zoathrope/nerothrope with the drop pod. i also decided to run the tervigon with the gaunt tax.
997Turbo wrote: I think Adepticon results have been largely glossed over due to the use of unlimited detachments. By any chance do you know the list he was using?
He posted on TTH:
well i ran 4 flyrants with the usaul loadout. i ran the dimachaeron and the malanthrope and i also ran the zoathrope/nerothrope with the drop pod. i also decided to run the tervigon with the gaunt tax.
997Turbo wrote: I think Adepticon results have been largely glossed over due to the use of unlimited detachments. By any chance do you know the list he was using?
He posted on TTH:
well i ran 4 flyrants with the usaul loadout. i ran the dimachaeron and the malanthrope and i also ran the zoathrope/nerothrope with the drop pod. i also decided to run the tervigon with the gaunt tax.
Some fun oddities in there with the Dima and the Neuro brood-pod.
Yeah I'm surprised he did that well with those as his Podding threats - the Dima I can't comment on as I haven't got one but it seems liable to getting shot up the turn it arrives, but I have used the Neuro+2 Zoans pod a lot. And they've been decidedly lacklustre in every instance - it's just too many dice hurdles to get over. Cast, deny, hit, damage. The best mine have ever done is taking a few vehicles down and knocking the last few wounds off a DK, which for a 250 point investment including the pod, is pretty poor. I really want to make them work but I've ended up cutting them for more reliable threats. Admittedly though, with 4 Flyrants+Tervi for warp dice perhaps he has a better shot at getting his powers off, especially if he got non-Psychic armies.
Hi everyone, I keep on seeing people mention the spore mine clusters as a decent option but in my mind they are so much worst then the mucolid spore (less str in the blast, worst ap, no shrouding, unable to harm flyer, average of same points).
What is the advantage of the spore mine cluster over the Mucolids?
Is it only when the you don't have any troops slots available?
Smaller so easier to hide from line of sight, makes them almost perfect for manning comms relay, larger foot print as you can spread the bases out to confine the opponent more
fartherthanfar wrote: Hi everyone, I keep on seeing people mention the spore mine clusters as a decent option but in my mind they are so much worst then the mucolid spore (less str in the blast, worst ap, no shrouding, unable to harm flyer, average of same points).
What is the advantage of the spore mine cluster over the Mucolids?
Is it only when the you don't have any troops slots available?
Also great for null deployment armies as they don't give up anything and lets you reserve your important units and not be "tabled" (assuming you hide them).
997Turbo wrote: I think Adepticon results have been largely glossed over due to the use of unlimited detachments. By any chance do you know the list he was using?
He posted on TTH:
well i ran 4 flyrants with the usaul loadout. i ran the dimachaeron and the malanthrope and i also ran the zoathrope/nerothrope with the drop pod. i also decided to run the tervigon with the gaunt tax.
Some fun oddities in there with the Dima and the Neuro brood-pod.
Thanks. With regards to some of the units on his list:
Dimachaeron in Spore - I like this unit. Dima by himself isn't very reliable performance-wise, but put him in a spore and his value to the army shoots way up. I think dima-spore is actually a viable competitive Tyranid build.
Zoans/Neuro-spore - I'm not a big fan of this unit. Too highly situational for my liking. However, like the dimachaeron, against the right army, they can actually do well. I just think that there are more consistent units for the price in the army.
Tervigon+Gaunts - another solid unit. If I were to run a ground force, I would include them. Despite what some say on the net, I still very much like this combo and they can still make for a great foundation for any Tyranid army. Though I must say that I found it surprising that he would run them in mainly Maelstrom missions. IMO they are better for Eternal War or Hybrid scenarios. Lack of mobility can make them a liability in Maelstrom games.
Dima in a pod = Dima on a turn 3 charge at the earliest. That means Dima contributes for roughly 1/2 of the game. I don't really see it. I've tried it about 8 times, and I've either lost the Dima on the turn he arrives, or he arrives so late that the battle was already mine, and gets to be a horrendously overpriced objective sitter.
Which list would you take and what changes would you make if any? Really struggling. List 3 sounds fun but I know one of my opponent's plays Raptors (and obviously Lias) which really hampers reserve rolls
Tested the Leviathan and Living Artillery list out against Tau w/ FBSC and Knight, Relic, Dawn of War Deployment.
I can still taste the salt in my mouth...they went first and the HYMP alone killed one Flyrant first turn (out of 6 saves I rolled four ones or so) and reduce the Warlord to 2 wounds. After dealing with the Fire Warriors and Exocrine I must have unloaded about 36 Brainleech shots into the Broadsides and got about 29 wounds? Saved all but one. Exocrine was the highlight, killed the Riptide but didn't do much else, failing to move through cover more than 2" a turn to get into range of the Broadsides. Flyrants were gone turn 3 and the Knight was in charge range of the Exocrine, or the only thing my army had that could deal with the knight.
Not sure I even want to test the four Flyrant list after how badly I rolled, haha :p
Yeah I just battles against imperial Knight last weekend and it was so tough battle! I destroy their main list - grey knight. Toxicrene was mvp against greyknight.
My ace flyrant score 6 for ace flying chart so I stick to 12" along the board so I can escape from knight cannon.
That how I wipe his grey knight out.
In turn 4 I need to kill knight... With huge spore drop everywhere and it was fun to watch knight running around like headless chicken... But I cannot crack a hull so Toxicrene can poison on knight... Fail.
Knight alone wipe out my whole tyranids armies include murder my flyrant after he learn to do not shoot at my ace flyrant..
Had I gotton Psychic Scream or something, then I might have stood a better chance. I got Catalyst which didn't come into play at all, Paroxysm which kept one Flyrant alive for a turn, Horror which was shot down and Warp Lance which I failed to manifest...multiple times.
It was the sort of game that makes you re-evaluate your list and realise it needs work. A lot of work.
Best thing one can do is kick back with a beer and watch the footy although my team isn't doing too hot in Italy at the moment
How the heck can we beat imperial Knight in legit way? Exocrine was easy target to imperial knight unless we take in 4 of exocrine and 2 exocrine die in first turn and pray to hit in turn 2.... No chance for bio-walking tank unless we put exocrine in tyranids pod..
All I need to crack single hull or better so my Toxicrene can poison.. Which unit can help other than floating death units.
Egrubs for D3 haywire overwatch works well, thats how I got it downto one HP in my last game against one
I normally wouldn't have let the Exocrine get to it but my Flyrants were dead at that point as well as my Biovores so after being holed up in a corner for too long due to bad move through cover rolls and being shot at with my flyrants first turn it was simply inevitable.
Cool!
My mawloc, Toxicrene and flyrant did not die after game 4... Game 5 against grey knight and imperial knight... Yep imperial knight use hammer of wrath and chainsaw my flyrant, Toxicrene and mawloc... And blow up the rest of my helpless critter.. Bah..
fartherthanfar wrote: Hi everyone, I keep on seeing people mention the spore mine clusters as a decent option but in my mind they are so much worst then the mucolid spore (less str in the blast, worst ap, no shrouding, unable to harm flyer, average of same points).
What is the advantage of the spore mine cluster over the Mucolids?
Also great for null deployment armies as they don't give up anything and lets you reserve your important units and not be "tabled" (assuming you hide them).
While nice, it's not an advantage Mucolids have over Spore Mines. Both have the Living Bomb rule.
997Turbo wrote: I think Adepticon results have been largely glossed over due to the use of unlimited detachments. By any chance do you know the list he was using?
He posted on TTH:
well i ran 4 flyrants with the usaul loadout. i ran the dimachaeron and the malanthrope and i also ran the zoathrope/nerothrope with the drop pod. i also decided to run the tervigon with the gaunt tax.
Some fun oddities in there with the Dima and the Neuro brood-pod.
Thanks. With regards to some of the units on his list:
Dimachaeron in Spore - I like this unit. Dima by himself isn't very reliable performance-wise, but put him in a spore and his value to the army shoots way up. I think dima-spore is actually a viable competitive Tyranid build.
The single pod was for the Neuro brood, not the Dima (it was deployed as normal).
I agree with tag8833 on podded Dimas, I just don't see it. Charge turn 3 or 4. Turn 5 with a bit of bad luck. Until mid-late game it's not contributing to target saturation and has zero area threat projection. Especially bad if Maelstrom missions were you need boots on the ground, and early.
I do love the model and it's rules (apart from its abysmal move - tell me how a Maulerfiend is twice as fast? Look at those legs FFS!) but if I would field one, it would be starting on the table.
Dima in a pod didn't work for me either -it's either too late to the game or is gunned down before it can do anything.
people say it is good distraction, ammo bait but i mean cmon - so is a mawloc and thats 60 pts cheaper.
How do people rate sling-shotting tyrant guard with a meleeflyrant? is that viable? I've been sat at my desk rolling dice trying to work out whats better out of 3 tyrant guard and a melee flyrant or a sky tyrant formation.
what are peoples thoughts -which ones more durable?
sky tyrant are better vs grav (which is heavily spammed in my meta) where as tyrant guard would be better vs high strength(that doesn't cause ID) although I don't have experience with the latter.
I believe that a Hive Tyrant is our best/ most reliable CC unit in the game as it's the only one that can get into combat by T2.
toxicrene and dima are nice but podding them in / walking them up the board is far too unreliable.
EDIT:
Or for a cheaper option - prime with lw, bs and toxin sacs in a unit of gargoyles? Sling shot into and issue challenge? Anyone tried this?
Im uber pro bone sword cause i REALLY hate riptides and wraithknights
You'll have to be a little more specific because Tzeentch summoning has a ton of variants (although to be fair so does #Lictorshame)
The idea with #Lictorshame is that you max out on efficiency reduction. Basically, you can null-deploy and waste your opponents' first turn or two (more likely two if you're not super aggressive). That's a big deal when you may only get 4 or 5 turns in a tournament.
Furthermore, take the "lowly" Lictor. 50 point unit. Can go to ground in ruins for a 2+ cover. 3 wounds. Really a pain to remove, and combat is where it makes its money. How many points of models is your opponent going to have to shoot at it to kill it? A lot more than 50, that's for sure. And I'm not even going to talk about the 15 point shrouded Mucolid in cover.
So you have a lot of ground control that can go wherever you need it to. Tzeentch summoning can't keep up with that, and the Daemon princes/Lords of change are deathstars compared to your units, so you have a lot more units than they do. For every unit they summon, you should have a Flyrant for that. Your Flyrants' AA will also down any Tzeentch unit that isn't shrouded, and Mawlocs also remove summoned units like it's their job.
@Wilson, your idea about deathstaring our HQs has got me interested. The melee flyrant with Guard idea particularly - getting fleet for 30 points as oposed to 55+ for a skytyrant swarm is a further benefit, as is the ability to add CC to some of the guard for some better antitank capacity than the flyrant alone or the skytyrant as a whole offers, which is imo a big downside to the unit. Perhaps a list running both skytyrant and melee flyrant w/ guard could work if you want to go the extremely rushy route?
Benlisted wrote: @Wilson, your idea about deathstaring our HQs has got me interested. The melee flyrant with Guard idea particularly - getting fleet for 30 points as oposed to 55+ for a skytyrant swarm is a further benefit, as is the ability to add CC to some of the guard for some better antitank capacity than the flyrant alone or the skytyrant as a whole offers, which is imo a big downside to the unit. Perhaps a list running both skytyrant and melee flyrant w/ guard could work if you want to go the extremely rushy route?
I like that idea too,
so what;
Flyrant -wings, LW,BS,AO,Toxin sacs, Talons - 255
Thats a lot to deal with but I'm concerned of the damage output - unless there are wraith knights/ riptides or dread knights on the board I feel like it may be a hefty and sometimes wasted investment.
If I had 3 tyrant guard i'd give it a bosh! someone try it?
It's really, really hard to beat shooty tau using a Lictor Shame list on a mostly bare board. Especially when most of your psychic rolls are 1 and 4. Just got blown off the board by Firebase Cadre combined with Farsight Bomb and a Skyray in the final round of a tourney. Mawlocs all scattered and didn't kill a thing. Lictors fell to Ignores Cover.
Any thoughts on strategy? I planned to keep things off as long as possible, but the primary mission was deteriorating objectives and each turn lost meant big points for the opponent. I burned 4 Lictors to kill the Skyray, which at least gave the Flyrants a chance.
Null Deploy with the Flyrants, get everything bar some Spore Mines manning objectives off the board, deploy out of Line of Sight, bring a Bastion to assist in this. Deploy out of range of SMS and block line of sight to weapons. Turn 2, get everything on with the Comms Relay, DS onto the Broadsides without Scatter due to non-scatter Lictors, Flyrants move up and Paroxysm the Skyfiring units (Skyray and co). Turn 2 should be where you do damage.
I would have had a good game against Tau with my 1250 Lictor Shame list but the dice were against me and was Seized, so my Flyrants took wounds. Followed swiftly by a Perils and failed Grounding.
Has anyone else had success with a Malanthrope? In all my games I don't seem to have much success with it. Against Tau, well that's to be expected. But I just faced off against Raptors which had a Scorpius w/ Battle of Keylek. Caused wounds for days with Lias and the Scorpius and probably the Legion of the damned.
EDIT: What are the best things to put inside a Tyrannocyte? My current list (posted in Army Lists) has Exocrine, Dakkafex and Zoanthrope should I roll Psychic Shriek. Are these three viable occupants for Pods? I fielded a similar list earlier today with an additional Dakkafex and other things in place of the Tyrannocyte and Bastion and while I won (Rippers too stronk), the list never really got out of the Deployment zone, except for Flyrants and DS units.
It's really, really hard to beat shooty tau using a Lictor Shame list on a mostly bare board. Especially when most of your psychic rolls are 1 and 4. Just got blown off the board by Firebase Cadre combined with Farsight Bomb and a Skyray in the final round of a tourney. Mawlocs all scattered and didn't kill a thing. Lictors fell to Ignores Cover.
Any thoughts on strategy? I planned to keep things off as long as possible, but the primary mission was deteriorating objectives and each turn lost meant big points for the opponent. I burned 4 Lictors to kill the Skyray, which at least gave the Flyrants a chance.
Sincerely,
Punching Bag
Tau have all of the answers to Tyranids. Firebase Cadre and Farsight bomb aren't even the most scary they can offer. 3 Skyrays + Buffmanderstar is more scary yet. You might be able to tailor to beat a specific tau list. For instance, running 90 Gargoyles will usually neutralize Riptides and broadsides pretty effectively, but those lists are either unbalanced and lose to most other things, or just not fun to play because of the high model count.
Until either Tau or Tyranids get a new codex, I don't think this is going to change, and rebuilding your list to counter a specific Tau list can be a dubious proposition.
One very, very important thing is to always try to pin (the Horror) any unit joined to buffmander. Coupled with a good Tyranid list, and you can usually avoid being tabled.
Frozocrone wrote: What are the best things to put inside a Tyrannocyte? My current list (posted in Army Lists) has Exocrine, Dakkafex and Zoanthrope should I roll Psychic Shriek. Are these three viable occupants for Pods?
Of those I'd opt for the Dakkafex as the best candidate, as it gets the most out of it due to the low range on its guns. The Exocrine is a reasonable alternate choice though as it allows you to circumvent cover to get the most out of its Ap2. I'd only put Zoanthropes in the pod if they are in a brood for the additional shots and survivability. A single Zoanthrope dropped in the midst of the foe doesn't usually do much in my experience, but a brood can at least tarpit stuff if psychic powers go awry.
You might be able to tailor to beat a specific tau list. For instance, running 90 Gargoyles will usually neutralize Riptides and broadsides pretty effectively, but those lists are either unbalanced and lose to most other things, or just not fun to play because of the high model count.
I'm not sure if I'd consider 90 Gargoyles to be an especially high model count, particularly compared to say a green tide or guard blob...
It's really, really hard to beat shooty tau using a Lictor Shame list on a mostly bare board. Especially when most of your psychic rolls are 1 and 4. Just got blown off the board by Firebase Cadre combined with Farsight Bomb and a Skyray in the final round of a tourney. Mawlocs all scattered and didn't kill a thing. Lictors fell to Ignores Cover.
Any thoughts on strategy? I planned to keep things off as long as possible, but the primary mission was deteriorating objectives and each turn lost meant big points for the opponent. I burned 4 Lictors to kill the Skyray, which at least gave the Flyrants a chance.
Sincerely,
Punching Bag
Tau have all of the answers to Tyranids. Firebase Cadre and Farsight bomb aren't even the most scary they can offer. 3 Skyrays + Buffmanderstar is more scary yet. You might be able to tailor to beat a specific tau list. For instance, running 90 Gargoyles will usually neutralize Riptides and broadsides pretty effectively, but those lists are either unbalanced and lose to most other things, or just not fun to play because of the high model count.
Until either Tau or Tyranids get a new codex, I don't think this is going to change, and rebuilding your list to counter a specific Tau list can be a dubious proposition.
One very, very important thing is to always try to pin (the Horror) any unit joined to buffmander. Coupled with a good Tyranid list, and you can usually avoid being tabled.
Yeah,I agree, though for me the key part of the post is almost no terrain. Having the final come down to beating Tau with little to no terrain is a pretty poor showing by who ever put the Tourney on. Who wouldn't struggle? Drop Pod Marines? That is just a poor match, and no amount of fixing can change that.
pinecone77 wrote: Yeah,I agree, though for me the key part of the post is almost no terrain. Having the final come down to beating Tau with little to no terrain is a pretty poor showing by who ever put the Tourney on. Who wouldn't struggle? Drop Pod Marines? That is just a poor match, and no amount of fixing can change that.
My experience with Tau is that they generally care very little about terrain. They tend to be pretty fast and outrange pretty much anything Tyranids have to offer. Also, Buffmander gives ignore cover, and Marker lights give ignore cover, and SMS give ignore cover, so you don't get cover saves very often.
On the other hand, thanks to Shadowsun, and the fact that the Move-Shoot-Move, they can exploit terrain much better than we can. Killing marker lights and suites with a 2+ cover save is a real pain. My worst case matchup against Tau is usually on tables with multi-level ruins so that Tau can claim immunity from Mawlocs, which are one of our few answers to farsight bomb or buffmanderstar or Broadsides.
Building ruin? It is not indestructible! Just attack the building instead of the unit on top of it. Mawloc can destructible the building. It is in mawloc datasheet where you can swallow the building. And most building rule are in page 110, but I can't find ruins armour value datasheet..
pinecone77 wrote: Yeah,I agree, though for me the key part of the post is almost no terrain. Having the final come down to beating Tau with little to no terrain is a pretty poor showing by who ever put the Tourney on. Who wouldn't struggle? Drop Pod Marines? That is just a poor match, and no amount of fixing can change that.
My experience with Tau is that they generally care very little about terrain. They tend to be pretty fast and outrange pretty much anything Tyranids have to offer. Also, Buffmander gives ignore cover, and Marker lights give ignore cover, and SMS give ignore cover, so you don't get cover saves very often.
On the other hand, thanks to Shadowsun, and the fact that the Move-Shoot-Move, they can exploit terrain much better than we can. Killing marker lights and suites with a 2+ cover save is a real pain. My worst case matchup against Tau is usually on tables with multi-level ruins so that Tau can claim immunity from Mawlocs, which are one of our few answers to farsight bomb or buffmanderstar or Broadsides.
All true, but I can kill marker lights, but that does not Matter in the absence of terrain. The biggest issue in my mind is usually a lack of LOS blocking items, the lack of which definitely favors some Codex more than others.
If I want a good match, I need to prepare a level playing field, and a field that favors one kind of play more than another is not level. Do I think Tau are a tough fight for us? Who does not? But I don't consider them unbeatable by a long ways.
Consider as an example this Tau vs Tyranids show down...Lictor shame vs Tau; the field is numerous small Mawloc sized islands surrounded by...hmm "lava", each island also has a piece of terrain my Lictors can exploit. Fair? I certainly don't think so.
So setting a field that heavily favors long range gun battle is a sub standard way to determine a champion. It is "OK" as one of several matches, but not for a final.
Iechine wrote: Is there anything rule wise preventing tyrant guard from a CAD joining the Tyrant of a Skytyrant formation?
The Tyrant Guard can't join a Hive Tyrant, it's the other way around. But as a Hive Tyrant can't leave the Skytyrant unit due to the Monstrous Flock rule, he can't join the Tyrant Guard unit until all the Gargoyles are dead.
fartherthanfar wrote: Hi everyone, I keep on seeing people mention the spore mine clusters as a decent option but in my mind they are so much worst then the mucolid spore (less str in the blast, worst ap, no shrouding, unable to harm flyer, average of same points).
What is the advantage of the spore mine cluster over the Mucolids?
Also great for null deployment armies as they don't give up anything and lets you reserve your important units and not be "tabled" (assuming you hide them).
While nice, it's not an advantage Mucolids have over Spore Mines. Both have the Living Bomb rule.
True, but mucolids can't hide as well as spore mines can.
jy2 wrote: Thanks. With regards to some of the units on his list:
Dimachaeron in Spore - I like this unit. Dima by himself isn't very reliable performance-wise, but put him in a spore and his value to the army shoots way up. I think dima-spore is actually a viable competitive Tyranid build.
The single pod was for the Neuro brood, not the Dima (it was deployed as normal).
I agree with tag8833 on podded Dimas, I just don't see it. Charge turn 3 or 4. Turn 5 with a bit of bad luck. Until mid-late game it's not contributing to target saturation and has zero area threat projection. Especially bad if Maelstrom missions were you need boots on the ground, and early.
I do love the model and it's rules (apart from its abysmal move - tell me how a Maulerfiend is twice as fast? Look at those legs FFS!) but if I would field one, it would be starting on the table.
Dima in a pod works in a null deployment-type list. He doesn't need to contribute to target saturation in such a list because there is basically no good targets for the opponent in the first place. Basically, you don't give the opponent any viable targets in the early game other than flying flyrants or the malanthrope with 2+ cover or out of LOS. With him on the table, you are actually giving the opponent a much easier target to kill than the flyrants. Thus, in a sense, you are actually reducing target saturation with him deployed naturally - he is a high-priority threat who is actually much easier to kill than the other Tyranid threats. Dima comes in for directional board control (i.e. wherever you need him to "control" the table as opposed to the predictability of him just moving forwards from your deployment zone). And while he doesn't have as many turns to be effective offense-wise, he becomes much more survivable as the opponent has less turns to shoot at him, all while taking damage from flyrant shooting. But even still, he has about as great a chance for a Turn 3 assault as a foot-slogging dima but with much, much better survivability (assuming he comes in on T2, which should be possible with reserves-manipulation tactics that should be commonplace in a null-deployment Tyranid list).
And while he doesn't actually have a pod in that list, at least it's good to have the flexibility to be able to start him off in the pod should the need arises.
tag8833 wrote: Dima in a pod = Dima on a turn 3 charge at the earliest. That means Dima contributes for roughly 1/2 of the game. I don't really see it. I've tried it about 8 times, and I've either lost the Dima on the turn he arrives, or he arrives so late that the battle was already mine, and gets to be a horrendously overpriced objective sitter.
Well, he is still a high-priority target and some armies can still finish him off with just 1 turn of shooting. I can definitely see how you had the results that you had. But having only 1 turn of shooting at him gives him a much higher chance to make it into assault than having multiple turns to shoot at him.
Wilson wrote: Dima in a pod didn't work for me either -it's either too late to the game or is gunned down before it can do anything.
people say it is good distraction, ammo bait but i mean cmon - so is a mawloc and thats 60 pts cheaper.
How do people rate sling-shotting tyrant guard with a meleeflyrant? is that viable? I've been sat at my desk rolling dice trying to work out whats better out of 3 tyrant guard and a melee flyrant or a sky tyrant formation.
what are peoples thoughts -which ones more durable?
sky tyrant are better vs grav (which is heavily spammed in my meta) where as tyrant guard would be better vs high strength(that doesn't cause ID) although I don't have experience with the latter.
I believe that a Hive Tyrant is our best/ most reliable CC unit in the game as it's the only one that can get into combat by T2.
toxicrene and dima are nice but podding them in / walking them up the board is far too unreliable.
EDIT:
Or for a cheaper option - prime with lw, bs and toxin sacs in a unit of gargoyles? Sling shot into and issue challenge? Anyone tried this?
Im uber pro bone sword cause i REALLY hate riptides and wraithknights
I don't see how you "slingshot" a melee tyrant with tyrant guards. Personally, I much prefer 30 gargoyles to 3 tyrant guards. They're better against one of the more competitive builds (centurions) and you can easily string the gargoyles back to malan/venomthrope range. Gargoyles are also better against units that we traditionally have problems with - wraithknights and Imperial Knights. But the main question really is this - do you want to take up your 2nd detachment on the Skytyrant formation? Most tournaments in our neck of the woods have a 2-source limit.
Personally, I think a melee walkrant is a waste of time, but more power to you if you like a challenge.
BTW, if you really want to go with a melee-rant + tyrant guards, then go with the Swarmlord.
It's really, really hard to beat shooty tau using a Lictor Shame list on a mostly bare board. Especially when most of your psychic rolls are 1 and 4. Just got blown off the board by Firebase Cadre combined with Farsight Bomb and a Skyray in the final round of a tourney. Mawlocs all scattered and didn't kill a thing. Lictors fell to Ignores Cover.
Any thoughts on strategy? I planned to keep things off as long as possible, but the primary mission was deteriorating objectives and each turn lost meant big points for the opponent. I burned 4 Lictors to kill the Skyray, which at least gave the Flyrants a chance.
Sincerely,
Punching Bag
Psychic powers like the Horror or Paroxysm will help a ton against Tau. Flyrant-spam will actually do better against Tau than Lictorshame, but Lictorshame can still work against Tau, especially if you have BLOS terrain to work with (if not, then it'll be a really uphill battle). In a battle I had against Tau, I kept on casting Paroxysm on his skyrays, thus preventing him from shooting with them for a few turns (didn't want to waste his missiles on BS1-2 shooting). You can do the same to skyfiring riptides. Also, directional fire is very important against the Farsight-bomb. I can usually murder his bodyguards by positioning my flyrants away from the tanking 2+ suit/commander and using Egrubs to eat away at the drones, especially if they are getting 2+ cover from Shadowsun in ruins.
But my main strategy is board control against Tau. Try to keep them detained in their deployment zone, keeping them busy fighting off your flyrants, while your lictors/rippers/whatever take objectives. That is how I mostly beat Tau. It isn't easy, but it is much easier than the pre-Leviathan days. Also, if your opponent doesn't pack in enough skyfire in his TAC list, then he will have trouble with flyrant-spam Tyranids.
Frozocrone wrote: Null Deploy with the Flyrants, get everything bar some Spore Mines manning objectives off the board, deploy out of Line of Sight, bring a Bastion to assist in this. Deploy out of range of SMS and block line of sight to weapons. Turn 2, get everything on with the Comms Relay, DS onto the Broadsides without Scatter due to non-scatter Lictors, Flyrants move up and Paroxysm the Skyfiring units (Skyray and co). Turn 2 should be where you do damage.
I would have had a good game against Tau with my 1250 Lictor Shame list but the dice were against me and was Seized, so my Flyrants took wounds. Followed swiftly by a Perils and failed Grounding.
Has anyone else had success with a Malanthrope? In all my games I don't seem to have much success with it. Against Tau, well that's to be expected. But I just faced off against Raptors which had a Scorpius w/ Battle of Keylek. Caused wounds for days with Lias and the Scorpius and probably the Legion of the damned.
EDIT: What are the best things to put inside a Tyrannocyte? My current list (posted in Army Lists) has Exocrine, Dakkafex and Zoanthrope should I roll Psychic Shriek. Are these three viable occupants for Pods? I fielded a similar list earlier today with an additional Dakkafex and other things in place of the Tyrannocyte and Bastion and while I won (Rippers too stronk), the list never really got out of the Deployment zone, except for Flyrants and DS units.
These are the units I prefer to put in a spore - dimachaeron, dakkafex, tervigon, tyrannofex, zoans/neurothrope and the Swarmlord. Exocrine has enough range that I usually prefer to keep him back and advancing while in range of the malanthrope. I don't run zoans/neuro in a pod, but if you run them, they are definitely better off in a pod than on foot.
It's really, really hard to beat shooty tau using a Lictor Shame list on a mostly bare board. Especially when most of your psychic rolls are 1 and 4. Just got blown off the board by Firebase Cadre combined with Farsight Bomb and a Skyray in the final round of a tourney. Mawlocs all scattered and didn't kill a thing. Lictors fell to Ignores Cover.
Any thoughts on strategy? I planned to keep things off as long as possible, but the primary mission was deteriorating objectives and each turn lost meant big points for the opponent. I burned 4 Lictors to kill the Skyray, which at least gave the Flyrants a chance.
Sincerely,
Punching Bag
Tau have all of the answers to Tyranids. Firebase Cadre and Farsight bomb aren't even the most scary they can offer. 3 Skyrays + Buffmanderstar is more scary yet. You might be able to tailor to beat a specific tau list. For instance, running 90 Gargoyles will usually neutralize Riptides and broadsides pretty effectively, but those lists are either unbalanced and lose to most other things, or just not fun to play because of the high model count.
Until either Tau or Tyranids get a new codex, I don't think this is going to change, and rebuilding your list to counter a specific Tau list can be a dubious proposition.
One very, very important thing is to always try to pin (the Horror) any unit joined to buffmander. Coupled with a good Tyranid list, and you can usually avoid being tabled.
Lol. It's ironic, but it's actually Tau who needs to tailor their list to beat our more competitive ones. And 3 skyrays is NOT a great Tau build. It's great against flyrant-spam, but just mediocre against a lot of the other competitive armies. I wouldn't run more than 2 skyrays in a good TAC Tau list. Broadsides are a lot more useful against most armies than the skyrays.
Podded Zoanthropes do sound tasty, but way too many dice for my liking.
I've had a chance to use the Exocrine in a couple of matches now and I have to say it's probably going to be auto-include if I'm not running Mawlocs (which I usually don't), particulary with how well it's performed. Frequently kills Riptides, blew up a Rhino for me so that my Dakkafex could kill the troops that were on my objective, even shot down a Stormtalon haha. It just does too much for me.
So here is a review for the OP; it saddens me to see it not have a dedicated write up when all of the other HS options do.
Spoiler:
Background For the more observant Tyranid player, the 2nd edition Exocrine sported the same weapon that the Bio-Titans have, a S10 AP3 Large Blast. The Exocrine had a bunch of special rules that made it fun to play in games, with different damage charts for different body parts on it! Fast forward to 2014 and the Exocrine became one of three new models to come out when the 6th edition Codex first hit shelves, getting a redesign in the works. Of the two models in the box set, the Exocrine looked to be the more promising of them, giving Tyranids access to reliable AP2 shooting. As the year progressed, it was given further buffs when it could be taken in a formation that gave its Blast weapon the ability to Twin-Link, making it even more accurate. It also gained access to Pinning which while not game-breaking, is a nice buff to have that can have an affect on the game.
Competitive Usage The Exocrine frequently makes it into several competitive lists and for a good reason - it's the only ranged AP2 that Tyranids gain access to. This provides it with a crucial role that is hard to replicate within the Tyranid army. However, the Mawloc also occupies the same slot the Exocrine resides in and at a glance, you may wonder why you might take an Exocrine when a Mawloc does the same thing but for less points and having an additional wound. Here are some of the reasons you should take an Exocrine in your army.
1. The Exocrine has two modes of firing, 6 S7 AP2 shots or one Large Blast AP2 shot. This means it can reliably deal with elite infantry, monstrous creatures and hordes to some extent.
2. The Exocrine can remain stationary and gain +1 BS. This means it's shots are more accurate and the blast will not scatter as much. The Mawlocs scatter is at the mercy of the scatter dice.
3. Linking in with the last point, it has a range of 24", meaning it can likely get into the middle of the board by turn 2 or 3 and stay there for the rest of the game while still presenting a threat.
4. The Exocrine can start on the board turn 1. This means that it can do damage turn one. The Mawloc might not even arrive until turn four.
5. Having a standard profile for TMCs, it pays 34pts per 3+ wound, making it relatively cheap compared to other TMC's in the Codex.
6. It can be taken in a formation that is extremely cheap compared to other formations. This allows you to take other Heavy Support options.
7. It's size means you can hide some of the large Infantry models, such as a Venomthrope and block line of sight to them, allow you to keep your smaller models alive longer.
The Exocrine is worthy of consideration in any competitive list, with particular mention to the Living Artillery formation, where most Exocrines will come from.
Lol. It's ironic, but it's actually Tau who needs to tailor their list to beat our more competitive ones. And 3 skyrays is NOT a great Tau build. It's great against flyrant-spam, but just mediocre against a lot of the other competitive armies. I wouldn't run more than 2 skyrays in a good TAC Tau list. Broadsides are a lot more useful against most armies than the skyrays.
I submit that your Tau meta is night and day different from the Tau meta I've seen in the competitive scene. You and I have gone several rounds on the viability of skyrays, but I would offer that the highest placing Tau army at LVO included 2 Skyrays: http://www.torrentoffire.com/6650/anatomy-of-the-list-tauanids
I don't think your impression that Tau need to tailor to beat competitive Tyranids is in touch with reality. One of the locals who went with me to LVO ran buffmanderstar with no Skyrays. He played against 13 Hive Tyrants and Killed 12 of them. The survivor came as a result of a ruling that Shadows in the Warp affects Riptides & Crisis Suites. The only time I've ever seen a Competitive Tyranid list beat a Competitive Tau list is when I've pulled out a game vs a netlisted Tau list played by a guy who was new to it, and had never faced Tyranids before.
rigeld2 wrote: Skyrays aren't that good IMO. I've actually not lost to a list with 2+ Skyrays. I have lost to lists with lots of HYMP broadsides though - repeatedly.
I think you are falling into the trap of comparing 3 Broadsides to 1 Skyray. Because Skyrays are laughably undercosted, that comparison isn't a fair one. The difference between Skyrays and Broadsides is that Skyrays are much harder to kill, they can completely take away your save (Broadsides can't), and they can support other units with markerlights.
Lets do some math. 3 Skyrays with SMS cost about the same as 5 Broadsides with HYMP & SMS.
Killyness VS Flyrant Flying with a 2+ Jink.
3 Skyrays - 7.85 wounds on the 1st turn, and then fewer as the game goes on. 2nd turn is 5.49. After that it is 1.19 per turn with 4 Marker tags to buff whatever else is in the Tau army. 2 Rounds of shooting easily kill 3 flyrants.
5 Broadsides - 2 Wounds per turn as long as they have range, LOS, and don't die. It will take them 6 turns of shooting to kill 3 flyrants. (Those numbers were Armor. Only 1.36 if 2+ Jink save)
VS Carnifex in 2+ Cover
3 Skyrays - Sames as the flyrant. 7.85 1st turn fewer as the game goes on.
5 Broadsides - 5 Wounds per turn as long as they have range, LOS, and don't die. (Those numbers were Armor. Only 3.33 if 2+ Cover save)
VS Lictors in 2+ Cover.
3 Skyrays - 3 dead lictors. They have the firepower to kill many more, but can only shoot at one each.
5 Broadsides - 3 Dead Lictors if you land in LOS. Otherwise only 2 Dead.
VS Barbed Heirodule in 2+ Cover.
3 Skyrays - 3.06 wounds 1st turn. 2.69 2nd turn. Finish it off on 3rd turn if it isn't already dead.
5 Broadsides - 1.67 wounds per turn. It will take 4 turns of shooting to kill it. (Those numbers were Armor. Only 1.11 if 2+ Cover save)
Now lets look at survivability Skyrays are 13/12/10 with 3 Hull points and Jink (can get +1 Jink for 15 points, but I rarely see it)
Broadsides are T4 with 2 wounds and a 2+ save.
So lets assume devourers are shooting at side armor for a comparison.
To kill 3 Skyrays it will take 10.13 rounds of shooting at them from a flyrant. It goes down somewhat if you use E.Grubs, and way down if you get back armor, but even if you shoot at nothing but Back armor it will still take 6.75 rounds of shooting from a flyrant.
To Kill 5 Broadsides it will take 6.75 rounds of shooting at them from a flyrant assuming they pass all of their leadership tests.
So lets look at Bio Cannons.
To Kill 3 Skyrays (front armor) it will take 6 rounds of shooting for a Barbed Heirodule to kill them.
To Kill 5 Broadsides it will take 4.17 rounds of shooting.
Also note that our offensive psychic powers are much more effective against Broadsides, and that Broadsides have a tendency to fail leadership and run off the table.
Lastly scoring. This is why Broadsides were better in 6th. Now that everything can score, Skyrays give Tau a highly mobile and durable scoring unit when their offense is not needed. Broadsides can't offer that.
I'm not saying that Broadsides can't beat us. They can, especially if they have marker light support (or buffmander), but honestly anything in the Tau codex can beat us with marker light support. Skyrays just happen to have that markerlight support built in, and work as an incredibly durable platform for dishing it out. They aren't the most broken thing in the Tau Codex (Buffmander), but they are absurdly undercosted, and built to kill nids.
I really do want to hear about these games where you beat 3 Skyrays running nids. I've only done it once, and that came about because my Barbed Heirodule killed 2 in his 1st round of shooting thanks to hot rolling for me, and cold rolling for my opponent.
Lol. It's ironic, but it's actually Tau who needs to tailor their list to beat our more competitive ones. And 3 skyrays is NOT a great Tau build. It's great against flyrant-spam, but just mediocre against a lot of the other competitive armies. I wouldn't run more than 2 skyrays in a good TAC Tau list. Broadsides are a lot more useful against most armies than the skyrays.
I submit that your Tau meta is night and day different from the Tau meta I've seen in the competitive scene. You and I have gone several rounds on the viability of skyrays, but I would offer that the highest placing Tau army at LVO included 2 Skyrays: http://www.torrentoffire.com/6650/anatomy-of-the-list-tauanids
I don't think your impression that Tau need to tailor to beat competitive Tyranids is in touch with reality. One of the locals who went with me to LVO ran buffmanderstar with no Skyrays. He played against 13 Hive Tyrants and Killed 12 of them. The survivor came as a result of a ruling that Shadows in the Warp affects Riptides & Crisis Suites. The only time I've ever seen a Competitive Tyranid list beat a Competitive Tau list is when I've pulled out a game vs a netlisted Tau list played by a guy who was new to it, and had never faced Tyranids before.
Ah, Justin Cook's list. In all fairness, his list was built to combat flyrant/flyer-spam in mind. It's not just 2 skyrays, it's also skyfire riptides and 3 flyrants! Basically, he is swapping out his broadsides for flyrants, only flyrants are better because they are much more mobile and come with built-in skyfire and psychic powers.
I am not disputing the fact that skyrays are good. They are good, especially against flyrants. They are mediocre against most other stuff, but for only $1.15, they are cheap enough to be a reliable support unit. You get a lot of bang for the buck, but they are not an offensive stand-out like the broadsides are.
Congrats to your friend for doing so well. I really cannot comment on his games as I don't know the caliber of his opponents nor the circumstances of the games, but his performance is totally reasonable. Tau, especially in the hands of a capable veteran, is still a very tough matchup for bugs. I myself lost my last game to a Tau player (actually, it was Paul McKelvey, the guy who won the ITC Overall as well as ITC Best Tau) and he didn't even bring that much skyfire. He did, however, bring 6 broadsides, of which 1 unit was hiding in an AV14 bunker, and he did get 2 Skyfire Nexus objectives and I only managed to get 1 Catalyst between all of my flyrants. But later (weeks later), I had a rematch against him where he ran 2 skyrays and 6 broadsides and was able to exact revenge thanks to 2 Paroxysms which I kept casting on his skyrays.
So no, Tau do not need to tailor to beat Tyranids. However, against flyrant-spam, IMO a normal Tau list with little skyfire is at a disadvantage unless they get a little lucky in the game (like getting 2 Skyfire Nexus objectives and/or bugs getting bad psychic powers and mawlocs misshaping and then dying ). In such battles, I actually think Tyranids have the upper-hand unless the Tau player incorporates more skyfire into his list. Skyrays are great for this because they are dual-purposed units. They are great against flyer-spam but they are also decent as support units, especially after they "blow their loads".
Oh, and here's a game where a competitive Tyranid list does ok against a "competitive" Tau list.
Tyran wrote: TBH, my biggest worry is Necrons, not Tau.
LOL! I worry about both. They are on the 2 polar extremes and it is so hard to prepare for both.
Necrons have the resiliency to outlast our firepower.
Tau has the potency to table us with their firepower.
It's like 5th Edition nids all over again. Back then, the 2 polar extremes we had to worry about were venom-spam DE which could shoot us to death or the Grey Knights who could actually outshoot us as well as kill our MC's in close combat with force weapons as well.
As one of cooks regular sparing partners, I can tell you that list can be pretty brutal. When we were testing for lvo, from talking to some of our west coast friends and reading the boards, flyrant spam seemed like it would be a thing so we tested vs it for a good bit, which turned out to be a correct assumption as we all played our fair share of flyrants.
Most of the games I have played my bug list are vs tau, and while I have won maybe 1 game out of 5, all of them were very close. Bugs just struggle mightily in missions where you are forced to play maelstrom.
On a side note, my favorite thing to do in all of 40k currently is shoot lictors at the rear of a skyray and ask the tau player if they would like to jink ))
I wanted to try and come up with a Tyranid version of a Knight Lance - essentially a pure Overlord Swarm, or as close to it as I can get at 1875, which is the Throne of Skulls points value.
Anyway, Assuming you're only taking supporting units once you can't fit in additional bio-titans, there are only a finite number of possible lists, essentially:
Hierophant (with Biomorph) plus Hierodule (either subspecies) or Harridan
Three Hierodules (either subspecies)
Two Hierodules (either subspecies) plus Harridan
I'm not sure which would be best. A Hierophant limits you to a single other gargantuan, and two units strikes me as too few to fight a Maelstrom game effectively* - not sure what other people think?
On the other hand, Hierophants are terrifying units to face. Expecially with Incendiary Ichor they're nigh unstoppable in assaults, even by other superheavies - or you've got the various weapon biomorphs to give it a bit more tactical flexibility if you plan to hold the range open. Flak Spines strike me as probably the least scary weapon - essentially a 6 shot quad-gun, and probably not enough to seriously impact something like a fire raptor. The plasma hellstorm is much scarier, and the spore barrage can make a mess of hordes - something biotitans otherwise have trouble with. A transport sac packed with either genestealers or a venomthrope is a possibility - although the latter strikes me as not being an especially nice thing to do (on a par with kustom force field protecting a Stompa). I guess you're paying a lot for it, though, and it is one of the few ways to make a bio-titan somewhat resiliant to the inevitable graviton weapons that seem tailor-made to kill them.
Barbed hierodules seem like good line units. Two or three of them do a good number on Imperial Knights - if you can put a knight in a crossfire between two units with biocannon, it can only present its shield to one of them, and you've got decent odds of shredding it in a single turn of fire. Knights obviously slap hierodules silly in assaults most of the time, but if they don't kill you before you can strike, 5 attacks (or especially 6+hammer of wrath) stand a reasonable chance of bringing down a damaged knight, so they have to treat you with more caution than they do most units.
Scythed hierodules have the big advantage of burning people out of cover. Biocannon have trouble digging people out of a building, and whilst assaults can do that, you don't want biotitans bogged down in combat if you can avoid it - maelstrom of war games generally require you to remain mobile.
Harridans are exceptional units, and my only complaint is that I don't already own one. Their points cost is huge, but they can rip apart many times their own weight in enemy fighters without much trouble.
Anyway, has anyone had a try with an overlord swarm or anything similar? I know that you can throw a lone Lord of War into a Tyranid list and it performs well if supported - largely because there's nothing really comparable to the Biocannon elsewhere in the bug's arsenal (except maybe the rather sucky rupture cannon), but how about a primarily lord of war force?
Spare points - if I have spare points, it'll depend how many and what's in the army, but my default assumption would be lictors. Lictors are cheap, and really good at snatching objectives in maelstrom of war games - when gone to ground, they're a bugger to dig out, and they do a nice line in killing tanks and heavy weapon squads which are an army's normal weapon of choice against titan-class units.
* Effectively enough to enjoy playing and have a non-trivial chance of winning. I'm not trying to make a world-beating tournament killer.
Jy2, did you ever put up those BatReps from when you took 5 Flyrants to the LVO? I haven't had a chance to use it myself, I'm looking for some insight to share with my ATC teammates.
Tyran wrote: TBH, my biggest worry is Necrons, not Tau.
LOL! I worry about both. They are on the 2 polar extremes and it is so hard to prepare for both.
Necrons have the resiliency to outlast our firepower.
Tau has the potency to table us with their firepower.
It's like 5th Edition nids all over again. Back then, the 2 polar extremes we had to worry about were venom-spam DE which could shoot us to death or the Grey Knights who could actually outshoot us as well as kill our MC's in close combat with force weapons as well.
We can defeat Tau, it's hard and it depends on the lists but we can win.
rigeld2 wrote: Skyrays aren't that good IMO. I've actually not lost to a list with 2+ Skyrays. I have lost to lists with lots of HYMP broadsides though - repeatedly.
I think you are falling into the trap of comparing 3 Broadsides to 1 Skyray. Because Skyrays are laughably undercosted, that comparison isn't a fair one. The difference between Skyrays and Broadsides is that Skyrays are much harder to kill, they can completely take away your save (Broadsides can't), and they can support other units with markerlights.
Lets do some math. 3 Skyrays with SMS cost about the same as 5 Broadsides with HYMP & SMS.
Killyness VS Flyrant Flying with a 2+ Jink.
3 Skyrays - 7.85 wounds on the 1st turn, and then fewer as the game goes on. 2nd turn is 5.49. After that it is 1.19 per turn with 4 Marker tags to buff whatever else is in the Tau army. 2 Rounds of shooting easily kill 3 flyrants.
5 Broadsides - 2 Wounds per turn as long as they have range, LOS, and don't die. It will take them 6 turns of shooting to kill 3 flyrants. (Those numbers were Armor. Only 1.36 if 2+ Jink save)
So you don't have a buffmander in those numbers with the Broadsides? Just curious.
And I've literally never seen those wound counts from a Skyray. 6 one shot missiles, right? Could you explain your math there?
I really do want to hear about these games where you beat 3 Skyrays running nids. I've only done it once, and that came about because my Barbed Heirodule killed 2 in his 1st round of shooting thanks to hot rolling for me, and cold rolling for my opponent.
I don't remember exact details - one game I know I flanked his Skyrays and killed 2 on my turn 1 (I went first). He opted not to jink with the first one and my first Flyrant got the 3 HP off of 11 hits. The second one jinked but he fail 3 saves out of the 5 I caused between the 2 Flyrants shooting it.
Another game there was tons of LoS blocking cover and I could get my Flyrants to his lines unseen by most markerlights.
The broadside units I typically face have a buffmander and are sitting in an AV14 bunker... so survivability goes to the Broadsides in that scenario.
tag8833 wrote: Killyness VS Flyrant Flying with a 2+ Jink.
3 Skyrays - 7.85 wounds on the 1st turn, and then fewer as the game goes on. 2nd turn is 5.49. After that it is 1.19 per turn with 4 Marker tags to buff whatever else is in the Tau army. 2 Rounds of shooting easily kill 3 flyrants.
5 Broadsides - 2 Wounds per turn as long as they have range, LOS, and don't die. It will take them 6 turns of shooting to kill 3 flyrants. (Those numbers were Armor. Only 1.36 if 2+ Jink save)
And I've literally never seen those wound counts from a Skyray. 6 one shot missiles, right? Could you explain your math there?
Well, each skyray has 2 networked markerlights. That is 6 Markerlights total. They are BS 4 with skyfire if they choose. Therefore 4 Markelights will hit. At that point 2 of the Skyrays will take Ignore cover and fire all 6 of their missiles. 12 Total shots. 8 of them hit, 5/6 of those wound, and you get no saves for a total of 6.66 wounds. Meanwhile the SMS kicks in another 1.19 wounds.
Turn two you've got only 6 missiles less, but you still have 4 tags. So 2 tags to ignore cover and 2 to raise to BS 6. That means 5.17 of the 6 missiles hit and 4.30 wound. Add in the 1.19 from SMS and you have the Turn 2 totals.
Now lets talk about actual game experience. 3 Skyrays have to shoot one at a time. So Skyray 1 fires at flyrant 1. If it gets 2 tags (44% chance) it shoots all of its missiles and ends up doing 3.73 wounds to that flyrant. If not, it saves its missiles, and Skyray 2 shoots at that Flyrant. It puts the 2nd and possibly a 3rd tag on it. If it only got 2 then it shoots its misiles and that flyrant ends up taking 4.12 wounds. If it gets 3 total tags, then it ups the BS on the misiles and instead does 4.99 wounds to that flyrant. Then the final Skyray shoots at another flyrant. If it tags it twice it shoots all missiles and does 3.73 wounds. If it only tags it once, it shoots only a single missile, and does 1.14 wounds to flyrant 2. Statistically, one of the skyrays will get 2 tags, and if you are lucky that skyray is the 2nd one to shoot, and does overkill to a flyrant. However if that is the case, then they still have most of their missiles left, and can shoot the one without missiles 1st to guarantee tags.
rigeld2 wrote: So you don't have a buffmander in those numbers with the Broadsides? Just curious.
If you join buffmander to broadsides they get substantially more killy. however if you join buffmander to Shadowsun a Missiles commander, Marker lights, and crisis suites you've got yourself something much more kill than broadsides that is fast, stupidly hard to kill (Marker lights with a 2+ cover save), has objective secured, and can assault and kill any flyrant that happens to get grounded nearby.
jy2 wrote: Ah, Justin Cook's list. In all fairness, his list was built to combat flyrant/flyer-spam in mind. It's not just 2 skyrays, it's also skyfire riptides and 3 flyrants! Basically, he is swapping out his broadsides for flyrants, only flyrants are better because they are much more mobile and come with built-in skyfire and psychic powers.
I'm not sure where you are coming from here. Justin considers this list a TAC list. He managed to beat quite a few good armies that weren't Flyrants with it. Tau do 2 things very, very well. Skyfire and interceptor. Those upgrades are so cheap, and they can be taken on units so durable, any Tau list that doesn't include skyfire and interceptor on at least a few models is not a very good TAC list.
jy2 wrote: Congrats to your friend for doing so well. I really cannot comment on his games as I don't know the caliber of his opponents nor the circumstances of the games, but his performance is totally reasonable.
He did play BigPig, and overall 3 of his opponents were in the top 20.
vs Justin Cook The skyrays were definitely the deciding factor. They were using marker lights to tag up buffmanderstar and missiles to kill suites. He still would have had a chance if buffmanderstar hadn't spent the whole game pinned from the horror. Justin's advice to Richard after the game "More Skyrays" which also happened to be my advice pre LVO. Richard was more concerned with a Kill point denial army, so it was just a skyfire misiles commander, and a skyfire burstide for anti-air, and lots of missile suites for anti Mech/MC. Plus 10 Twin linked marker lights.
jy2 wrote: Oh, and here's a game where a competitive Tyranid list does ok against a "competitive" Tau list.
A game that has neither buffmander nor skyrays, and thus is a pretty atypical Tau build for competitive play. Off the top of my head I've been beat down 5 times by Tau at Tourneys. 3 of the 5 had Skyrays, and 5 out of the 5 had buffmander joined to either Suites or Broadsides. I've also been at 2 Tourneys where Tau took the top spot. Both of those Tau players had both buffmander and a Skyray in their list. Just a note. Skyrays are great at killing Wave Serpents, Marines, Deamon Princes, Crisis Suites, and Wraith Knights. They aren't a flyrant only model. The main MC they struggle against are Riptides and Dread Knights because of the 2+ armor. They also run out of missiles if asked to deal with imperial knights, though 3 skyrays can take out 1 imperial knight fairly easily (buff BS instead of Ignore cover).
Tyran wrote: I still have no idea how we can defeat Necrons.
Depends on the list, and depends on the missions, but agreed.
tag8833 wrote: Killyness VS Flyrant Flying with a 2+ Jink.
3 Skyrays - 7.85 wounds on the 1st turn, and then fewer as the game goes on. 2nd turn is 5.49. After that it is 1.19 per turn with 4 Marker tags to buff whatever else is in the Tau army. 2 Rounds of shooting easily kill 3 flyrants.
5 Broadsides - 2 Wounds per turn as long as they have range, LOS, and don't die. It will take them 6 turns of shooting to kill 3 flyrants. (Those numbers were Armor. Only 1.36 if 2+ Jink save)
And I've literally never seen those wound counts from a Skyray. 6 one shot missiles, right? Could you explain your math there?
Well, each skyray has 2 networked markerlights. That is 6 Markerlights total. They are BS 4 with skyfire if they choose. Therefore 4 Markelights will hit. At that point 2 of the Skyrays will take Ignore cover and fire all 6 of their missiles. 12 Total shots. 8 of them hit, 5/6 of those wound, and you get no saves for a total of 6.66 wounds. Meanwhile the SMS kicks in another 1.19 wounds.
Hang on. You can't fire all markerlights and then fire all missiles. Your math is wrong based on that alone.
A single Skyray can fire 2 markerlights, hitting with 1.3 markerlights. We'll say 1 of them hits twice and the others hit once. Which means only one can ignore cover.
@rigeld2, Why can't the Skyray fire all markerlights and all missiles? Any vehicle type (short of flyers) only need to remain stationary to fire all weapons.
Saythings wrote: @rigeld2, Why can't the Skyray fire all markerlights and all missiles? Any vehicle type (short of flyers) only need to remain stationary to fire all weapons.
What he meant is that you must complete the shooting of 1 skyray at a time. You fire its markerlights and then fire its missiles. You can't just pool up the markerlight hits from all 3 skyrays and then distribute them for all the missiles to ignore cover. Thus, on average only 1 skyray will be ignoring cover, not 2.
jy2 wrote: Ah, Justin Cook's list. In all fairness, his list was built to combat flyrant/flyer-spam in mind. It's not just 2 skyrays, it's also skyfire riptides and 3 flyrants! Basically, he is swapping out his broadsides for flyrants, only flyrants are better because they are much more mobile and come with built-in skyfire and psychic powers.
I'm not sure where you are coming from here. Justin considers this list a TAC list. He managed to beat quite a few good armies that weren't Flyrants with it. Tau do 2 things very, very well. Skyfire and interceptor. Those upgrades are so cheap, and they can be taken on units so durable, any Tau list that doesn't include skyfire and interceptor on at least a few models is not a very good TAC list.
Oh, I agree it is a TAC list, and a very good one also. However, he slightly tailored his list to the "meta", which he thought would be flyer-heavy. No different from 5th edition marine lists packing a lot of melta in a vehicle-heavy MSU meta back then. Justin anticipated the meta and it turned out very well for him. But let's say if the meta was different - for example, if the meta was Necron-decurion-heavy - I don't think you will see those skyrays in his list. Good players adjust to the meta (unless they impose self-restrictions due to personal tastes).
In any case, there is a difference between East Coast-West Coast players. In the west, we tend to rely more on riptides and markerlight support for our anti-air. East Coasters do tend to run more skyrays.
A game that has neither buffmander nor skyrays, and thus is a pretty atypical Tau build for competitive play. Off the top of my head I've been beat down 5 times by Tau at Tourneys. 3 of the 5 had Skyrays, and 5 out of the 5 had buffmander joined to either Suites or Broadsides. I've also been at 2 Tourneys where Tau took the top spot. Both of those Tau players had both buffmander and a Skyray in their list. Just a note. Skyrays are great at killing Wave Serpents, Marines, Deamon Princes, Crisis Suites, and Wraith Knights. They aren't a flyrant only model. The main MC they struggle against are Riptides and Dread Knights because of the 2+ armor. They also run out of missiles if asked to deal with imperial knights, though 3 skyrays can take out 1 imperial knight fairly easily (buff BS instead of Ignore cover).
It did have a buffmander-lite, only he runs Iridium, CCN and drone controller and he joins a unit of marker drones. I don't think you are quite aware of how incredibly effective this unit actually is. If you were to play against it, I'd bet you'd be surprised. And yes, I have played against the buffmander joined to suits and broadsides before so I can compare the 3 configurations. But anyways, different strokes for different folks.
rigeld2 wrote: Hang on. You can't fire all markerlights and then fire all missiles. Your math is wrong based on that alone.
A single Skyray can fire 2 markerlights, hitting with 1.3 markerlights. We'll say 1 of them hits twice and the others hit once. Which means only one can ignore cover.
Read the next paragraph, and you will see that I dealt with that:
Spoiler:
tag8833 wrote: Now lets talk about actual game experience. 3 Skyrays have to shoot one at a time. So Skyray 1 fires at flyrant 1. If it gets 2 tags (44% chance) it shoots all of its missiles and ends up doing 3.73 wounds to that flyrant. If not, it saves its missiles, and Skyray 2 shoots at that Flyrant. It puts the 2nd and possibly a 3rd tag on it. If it only got 2 then it shoots its misiles and that flyrant ends up taking 4.12 wounds. If it gets 3 total tags, then it ups the BS on the misiles and instead does 4.99 wounds to that flyrant. Then the final Skyray shoots at another flyrant. If it tags it twice it shoots all missiles and does 3.73 wounds. If it only tags it once, it shoots only a single missile, and does 1.14 wounds to flyrant 2. Statistically, one of the skyrays will get 2 tags, and if you are lucky that skyray is the 2nd one to shoot, and does overkill to a flyrant. However if that is the case, then they still have most of their missiles left, and can shoot the one without missiles 1st to guarantee tags.
jy2 wrote: It did have a buffmander-lite, only he runs Iridium, CCN and drone controller and he joins a unit of marker drones. I don't think you are quite aware of how incredibly effective this unit actually is. If you were to play against it, I'd bet you'd be surprised. And yes, I have played against the buffmander joined to suits and broadsides before so I can compare the 3 configurations. But anyways, different strokes for different folks.
Buffmander as a tank for markerlights that raises their BS and Twin links them is OK. One of the fluffier players that I face regularly runs that (though he prefers Sniper Drones, and runs that way more often). It is far less effective than Buffmander joined with markerlights AND Crisis Suites. The suites get ignore cover, and monster hunter / tank hunter, and can fire at different targets than the markerlights. Also, note that much of what Buffmander gives to Marker lights to buff them (tanking, Higher BS) is also granted by a Skyray.
Its like saying that taking 1 TL Devourer on a Hive Tyrant is good, and it is, but playing against flyrants that each have 1 TL-Devourer isn't the same as facing a Tyranid list where Hive Tyrants have 2 TL devourers.
rigeld2 wrote: Hang on. You can't fire all markerlights and then fire all missiles. Your math is wrong based on that alone.
A single Skyray can fire 2 markerlights, hitting with 1.3 markerlights. We'll say 1 of them hits twice and the others hit once. Which means only one can ignore cover.
Read the next paragraph, and you will see that I dealt with that:
Spoiler:
tag8833 wrote: Now lets talk about actual game experience. 3 Skyrays have to shoot one at a time. So Skyray 1 fires at flyrant 1. If it gets 2 tags (44% chance) it shoots all of its missiles and ends up doing 3.73 wounds to that flyrant. If not, it saves its missiles, and Skyray 2 shoots at that Flyrant. It puts the 2nd and possibly a 3rd tag on it. If it only got 2 then it shoots its misiles and that flyrant ends up taking 4.12 wounds. If it gets 3 total tags, then it ups the BS on the misiles and instead does 4.99 wounds to that flyrant. Then the final Skyray shoots at another flyrant. If it tags it twice it shoots all missiles and does 3.73 wounds. If it only tags it once, it shoots only a single missile, and does 1.14 wounds to flyrant 2. Statistically, one of the skyrays will get 2 tags, and if you are lucky that skyray is the 2nd one to shoot, and does overkill to a flyrant. However if that is the case, then they still have most of their missiles left, and can shoot the one without missiles 1st to guarantee tags.
How does Skyray 1 firing with 2 lights (to ignore cover) do less wounds than Skyray 2 firing with 2 lights (to ignore cover)? (3.73 wounds vs 4.12 wounds)
rigeld2 wrote: Hang on. You can't fire all markerlights and then fire all missiles. Your math is wrong based on that alone.
A single Skyray can fire 2 markerlights, hitting with 1.3 markerlights. We'll say 1 of them hits twice and the others hit once. Which means only one can ignore cover.
Read the next paragraph, and you will see that I dealt with that:
Spoiler:
tag8833 wrote: Now lets talk about actual game experience. 3 Skyrays have to shoot one at a time. So Skyray 1 fires at flyrant 1. If it gets 2 tags (44% chance) it shoots all of its missiles and ends up doing 3.73 wounds to that flyrant. If not, it saves its missiles, and Skyray 2 shoots at that Flyrant. It puts the 2nd and possibly a 3rd tag on it. If it only got 2 then it shoots its misiles and that flyrant ends up taking 4.12 wounds. If it gets 3 total tags, then it ups the BS on the misiles and instead does 4.99 wounds to that flyrant. Then the final Skyray shoots at another flyrant. If it tags it twice it shoots all missiles and does 3.73 wounds. If it only tags it once, it shoots only a single missile, and does 1.14 wounds to flyrant 2. Statistically, one of the skyrays will get 2 tags, and if you are lucky that skyray is the 2nd one to shoot, and does overkill to a flyrant. However if that is the case, then they still have most of their missiles left, and can shoot the one without missiles 1st to guarantee tags.
How does Skyray 1 firing with 2 lights (to ignore cover) do less wounds than Skyray 2 firing with 2 lights (to ignore cover)? (3.73 wounds vs 4.12 wounds)
Because Skyray 1 fires its SMS. 1 SMS does 0.39 wounds. So Skyray 2 does 3.73 wounds + the 0.39 wounds done by skyray 1.
Okay, I can see how that math works now - thanks for explaining.
I've literally never seen it actually work that way on the tabletop, however. LoS blocking cover is a real thing in many areas and while that won't stop SMSs, it does stop the real threat (markerlights). And yes, it works just as well against Broadsides - except Broadsides can hide in Bunkers that are immune to Flyrants (aside from Warp Lance) and Skyrays can't.
jifel wrote: Jy2, did you ever put up those BatReps from when you took 5 Flyrants to the LVO? I haven't had a chance to use it myself, I'm looking for some insight to share with my ATC teammates.
No, not yet. I haven't been very motivated recently to write my LVO batreps. I didn't do very good there, at least not to my standards. Perhaps I will go back one of these days to write them, but currently, I've been kind of lazy writing-wise.
But for the people here, I will give a brief summary of my performance there.
Jy2's LVO 2015 Summary.
Game #1
Played against Mike Fox and his beautiful Orks. He was running the Bully Boyz formation (I think) and his orks were gorgeous. He didn't, however, have much in the ways of anti-air other than one unit of tracktor cannons (the ones that ground FMC's at will). Now normally, meganobs can take on Tyranids by just staying on objectives and trying to weather our shooting, but I happened to steal the initiative from him. From there, I took out all of his trukks on T1 and he really had no chance. He did manage to ground and assault/kill 1 flyrant but it really wasn't much of a game. 10-0 to Pentyrants.
Game #2
This round I played against John Parsons (krootman here on dakka) and his Eldar. He ran a triple wraithknights, 3-4 wave serpents and some jetbike troops in a Victory Point mission. John did a great job of keeping his skimmers out of range of my flyrants and with Shrouding on one of his farseers, I really couldn't do much against wave serpents with 2+ jinks. So instead of focusing on his serpents, I opted to go after his jetbike troops instead. However, my dice really wasn't that hot this game as twice, it took 2 flyrants just to finish off 1 unit of 3 jetbikes. John ended up crushing me on the Maelstrom secondary and managed to win the Primary by 1-VP. I believe the final score was 9-1 to Eldar, with Linebreaker being my only point (and my Warlord survived to deny him a complete victory).
Game #3
Here I played against Space Wolves/Space Marines with a Sicarian, thunderwolves, the Shield Eternal Chapter Master and centurions in a drop pod. Honestly, I don't remember much about this game, other than I got 10-pts from it. I might have lost 1 flyrant.
Game #4
Played against mechdar this round. 5 wave serpents with 2x5 dire avengers, 2x5 fire dragons and 1x5 dark reapers as well as 2 wraithknights. A very fun opponent who brought a whole cooler of jello-rum shots. In the end, he only had 1 wraithknight and 1 unit of dire dire avengers remaining. I lost 2 flyrants and my mawloc. Another 10-pts for me. At the end of the game, I took a picture of all the jello shots that we consumed:
Spoiler:
It started off as - for every flyrant you kill, I'll eat a shot.
It then became - for every wound you do to one of my flyrants, I'll eat a shot.
It ended up as - f*ck it, I'm just gonna eat the jello shots.
Game #5
So after 4-games, I am at 31-pts. I still have a slim shot to make it to Day #3, but I'll probably need to ace my next 2 games with perfect 10's in order to do so. Well, it turned out that the cut-off was 49-pts. Game #5, I played against Sean Nayden and his GT-winning #Lictorshame list. This game, I played like a noob and fell for the bait he set. The reason was because I've never played against another bug list with my bugs throughout all of 6th and 7th and so I totally forgot about Shadows. In any case, you can read about that report here:
Gosh, I played like such a noob in that game. I can't believe I fell for the Psychic Scream-Shadows in the Warp trick. Believe it or not, this was the first time ever (since 5th Ed.) that I played against another bug player with my bugs. I completely forgot about Shadows in the Warp affecting my own flyrants. As such, I fell for Sean's bait beautifully.
And while this is no excuse, but I had gak for powers. Between 5 flyrants, I didn't get a single Catalyst or Psychic Scream! (Actually for the course of the entire 6-game tournament with 30 psychic powers, I only got Catalyst maybe 3 times.) In any case, well played by Sean. He purposely gave up First Blood (lictor in the bastion) but in return, he got 2 flyrants. From then on, I was just playing from behind.
One thing to note is how deadly his mawlocs were. 2 of them came up and landed directly, killing both my malanthrope and one of my lictors on Turn 2. I sure envy his mawlocs. My mawloc only landed directly on target just once throughout the entire tournament (6-games). However, 3 times throughout, my mawloc misshaped and killed itself. I swear, just not one of my better tournaments.
Game #6
So my last game of the day, I played against another GT-winner. Not only did he win a GT with his Tau, but he actually won the ITC Overall and Best Tau as well. I'm talking about Paul McKelvey. He brought his ninja-Tau. Basically it was a bunch of suits, 2x2 tetras, 1 riptide, bunker and the Tau Firebase Cadre (that's another riptide and 2x3 broadsides). His list has got a lot of shenanigans but it actually didn't have a lot of Skyfire. So I thought to myself, ok, I should get this one. Man, was I wrong. Paul got lucky and managed to get 2 Skyfire Nexus for the objectives and his reserves came in on them to down 2 flyrants. From there, I just couldn't kill off his units as fast as he could kill mine. The score was closer than the actual game because I was able to get more Maelstrom objectives than my opponent, but my flyrants got slapped down hard in this game. In the end, I only had 1 lictor left claiming Linebreaker. Paul got Primary, First Blood, Warlord and Linebreaker for a 7-4 Tau victory.
Well done - unlucky on the skyfire nexus; every so often the dice decide "not this time" and there's not a lot you can do about it...
And yeah, stacked leadership penalties can really make things like psychic scream and psychic shriek hurt.
I think the worst occasion I've seen recently was a greater daemon get ninja-ed by Deathleaper's Assassin Brood and a Psychic Scream Tyrant simultaneously. Between The Shadow in the Warp, Paranoia and Ill Discipline, and It's After Me!, it was being hit at an effective leadership 3.
It's not bad, but the big weakness is that when you lose a unit, if you get a replacement in ongoing reserves, it comes on from your board edge and has to trek back to where it was when it died before it's in a position to do much; which could take 2-3 turns.
Consider having a couple of trygon - that way you can express-transit reinforcements to the front line via subway...
In fact, endless swarm plus subterranean swarm might work quite nicely. I'll have to have a think about that...
locarno24 wrote: Well done - unlucky on the skyfire nexus; every so often the dice decide "not this time" and there's not a lot you can do about it...
And yeah, stacked leadership penalties can really make things like psychic scream and psychic shriek hurt.
I think the worst occasion I've seen recently was a greater daemon get ninja-ed by Deathleaper's Assassin Brood and a Psychic Scream Tyrant simultaneously. Between The Shadow in the Warp, Paranoia and Ill Discipline, and It's After Me!, it was being hit at an effective leadership 3.
Thanks.
You think Tyranid LD shenanigans is bad? Wait til you face against the new Harlequins. They have a combo where they can reduce your LD by -5 (and potentially more!) and then they have a psychic power where you keep on testing against the caster until you die. At -5 and with the harlequin winning the in case of a tie, you can't win! Basically, it is an ultra-effective way to kill characters. It will even kill a hierophant bio-titan!!!
True - but I guess it depends how long range it is; mutual psychic screams are bad as it's an absolute roll. A 'roll-off' is less bad as the psyker may well be under the shadow themselves, and/or having deathleaper issues.
So I played my buddy tj in a killadelphia test game with my Nid list yesterday. I realized strategic warlord traits really only give me conqueror of cities and infiltrate which is not a huge deal for me. Tactical traits are solid, as we all know nids don't do the best malestrom (I actually won malestrom last night though)
So I looked at command and it has this really nifty warlord trait that says units have to roll on their lowest ld value for ld tests. I had a psy scream so i rolled cmd and gave it a try.
It ended up being pretty solid actually. CMD traits are not the worst for bugs all things considered.
jy2 wrote: It did have a buffmander-lite, only he runs Iridium, CCN and drone controller and he joins a unit of marker drones. I don't think you are quite aware of how incredibly effective this unit actually is. If you were to play against it, I'd bet you'd be surprised. And yes, I have played against the buffmander joined to suits and broadsides before so I can compare the 3 configurations. But anyways, different strokes for different folks.
Buffmander as a tank for markerlights that raises their BS and Twin links them is OK. One of the fluffier players that I face regularly runs that (though he prefers Sniper Drones, and runs that way more often). It is far less effective than Buffmander joined with markerlights AND Crisis Suites. The suites get ignore cover, and monster hunter / tank hunter, and can fire at different targets than the markerlights. Also, note that much of what Buffmander gives to Marker lights to buff them (tanking, Higher BS) is also granted by a Skyray.
Its like saying that taking 1 TL Devourer on a Hive Tyrant is good, and it is, but playing against flyrants that each have 1 TL-Devourer isn't the same as facing a Tyranid list where Hive Tyrants have 2 TL devourers.
I agree that buffmander + suits + marker drones is incredibly effective. I myself have tried playing it in test games. However, there is a downside to this build as well. With marker drones + buffmander-lite, oftentimes, target priority is not clear to the opponent. Should they go after the support unit or should they actually try to kill the offensive ones (like the riptides and broadsides)? In such a case, oftentimes, the marker unit is ignored as most opponents often go after the broadsides first. Thus, the marker unit ends up buffing the army for a few turns, before your opponent realizes his "mistake" and changes target priorities. The mini-crisis-star, however, is so dangerous that target priority is very clear in their case. They are both an offensive threat as well as a force-multiplier support unit. Then for us bug players, it is just a matter of focusing our flyrants and mawlocs against them, and with flyrants, there is no place for them to hide. In the grand scheme of things, yes, the crisis-star is a more effective and dangerous unit than the marker drone unit (at least initially). However, they are also much less likely to survive as long as the marker drone unit as well. The crisis-star provides a stronger initial hit. The marker drone unit provides better long-term army support. (And btw, for the price of the crisis-star, you can almost afford to get the marker drone unit AND a skyray!) Both are great and both are viable depending on army build. I just wouldn't call one unit better than the other, because that would be looking at the units in a vacuum.
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badula wrote: Give me your thoughts on this fun/fluffy list mainly made to play with friends:
1750
Main foc unbound
malanthrope
zoanthrope
zoanthrope
endless swarm formation
3xsquads of 10 each horma with toxin sacs
3x squads of terma 10 flesh 10 devourer
warrior naked except for a barbed strangler
Skyblight swarm
crone with stingers salvo
dakkaflyrant (twinlinked devo + grubs+wings) warlord
3xgargoyles
2x harpy with heavy venom
It's not bad, but the big weakness is that when you lose a unit, if you get a replacement in ongoing reserves, it comes on from your board edge and has to trek back to where it was when it died before it's in a position to do much; which could take 2-3 turns.
Consider having a couple of trygon - that way you can express-transit reinforcements to the front line via subway...
In fact, endless swarm plus subterranean swarm might work quite nicely. I'll have to have a think about that...
Agreed with locarno. If you're going to take the Endless Swarm, you almost always have to consider taking at least 1 trygon with it.
Honestly, I don't think Skyblight goes well with the Endless swarm. You can try it for fun, but it's got some exploitable weaknesses. Oftentimes, the swarm is going to get in the way of your FMC's. More importantly, you're going to have plan your Synapse nodes much more carefully in such a list, and Skyblight will limit your Synapse options. Currently, with only 1 flyrant, 2 single zoans, 3 warriors and 1 malanthrope, it actually isn't very hard for your opponents to take out your synapse with shooty armies and your flyrant - due to him flying around - actually won't be able to support your backfield units very well with his Synapse. Of course if your friend doesn't run a really shooty army (the likes of Tau or Eldar), then you're probably ok.
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locarno24 wrote: True - but I guess it depends how long range it is; mutual psychic screams are bad as it's an absolute roll. A 'roll-off' is less bad as the psyker may well be under the shadow themselves, and/or having deathleaper issues.
Shadows will help, that's true. However, instead of a -5+, it is now a -2+ (and I add the + because -5 is the minimum, they also can get additional negative-LD modifiers on top of that!). The Harlequin psychic power is stupid because it isn't just 1 roll-off, it's a roll-off-until-you-die power. Even with only a -2, this will suck for our bugs because 1) the Harlequin wins in the case of a tie and 2) we lack Invuln's while they have Invuln's (actually, that's all they have). But to be fair, it is still a witchfire power and thus will be hitting our swooping FMC's on 6's. I just feel bad for the other races.
krootman. wrote: So I played my buddy tj in a killadelphia test game with my Nid list yesterday. I realized strategic warlord traits really only give me conqueror of cities and infiltrate which is not a huge deal for me. Tactical traits are solid, as we all know nids don't do the best malestrom (I actually won malestrom last night though)
So I looked at command and it has this really nifty warlord trait that says units have to roll on their lowest ld value for ld tests. I had a psy scream so i rolled cmd and gave it a try.
It ended up being pretty solid actually. CMD traits are not the worst for bugs all things considered.
For me, the re-roll reserves Strategic Trait is really important due to my strategy of null-deployment, so I guess that makes it 3 out of the 6 are useful.
Unfortunately, in our meta (the ITC format which many of the West Coast tournaments follow), Tactical traits are not allowed.
For Command Traits, the one you got is probably one of the best ones there. Everything else, however, is pretty much crap unless you are running an Assault-heavy Tyranid list.
jy2 wrote: It did have a buffmander-lite, only he runs Iridium, CCN and drone controller and he joins a unit of marker drones. I don't think you are quite aware of how incredibly effective this unit actually is. If you were to play against it, I'd bet you'd be surprised. And yes, I have played against the buffmander joined to suits and broadsides before so I can compare the 3 configurations. But anyways, different strokes for different folks.
Buffmander as a tank for markerlights that raises their BS and Twin links them is OK. One of the fluffier players that I face regularly runs that (though he prefers Sniper Drones, and runs that way more often). It is far less effective than Buffmander joined with markerlights AND Crisis Suites. The suites get ignore cover, and monster hunter / tank hunter, and can fire at different targets than the markerlights. Also, note that much of what Buffmander gives to Marker lights to buff them (tanking, Higher BS) is also granted by a Skyray.
Its like saying that taking 1 TL Devourer on a Hive Tyrant is good, and it is, but playing against flyrants that each have 1 TL-Devourer isn't the same as facing a Tyranid list where Hive Tyrants have 2 TL devourers.
I agree that buffmander + suits + marker drones is incredibly effective. I myself have tried playing it in test games. However, there is a downside to this build as well. With marker drones + buffmander-lite, oftentimes, target priority is not clear to the opponent. Should they go after the support unit or should they actually try to kill the offensive ones (like the riptides and broadsides)? In such a case, oftentimes, the marker unit is ignored as most opponents often go after the broadsides first. Thus, the marker unit ends up buffing the army for a few turns, before your opponent realizes his "mistake" and changes target priorities. The mini-crisis-star, however, is so dangerous that target priority is very clear in their case. They are both an offensive threat as well as a force-multiplier support unit. Then for us bug players, it is just a matter of focusing our flyrants and mawlocs against them, and with flyrants, there is no place for them to hide. In the grand scheme of things, yes, the crisis-star is a more effective and dangerous unit than the marker drone unit (at least initially). However, they are also much less likely to survive as long as the marker drone unit as well. The crisis-star provides a stronger initial hit. The marker drone unit provides better long-term army support. (And btw, for the price of the crisis-star, you can almost afford to get the marker drone unit AND a skyray!) Both are great and both are viable depending on army build. I just wouldn't call one unit better than the other, because that would be looking at the units in a vacuum.
I view target priority the other way, Usually a buffmander star exploits terrain and shadowsun for a 2+ cover save rendering it mainly immune from flyrants, and if there is mutiple level terrain it will jump on and off upper levels to prevent Mawloc damage. If I'm playing buffmander-lite with Marker drones i focus 100% of my firepower there. Because I can kill them effectively (e grubs can kill drones effectively even if shadowsun is in the unit, and shadowsun is T3, so Devourers take care of her). If I'm playing buffmanderstar, I don't shoot at it too much, because I can't really hurt it. Sometimes if they fail to get a few models in terrain, I'll pick them off but that doesn't happen much.
jy2 wrote:
For me, the re-roll reserves Strategic Trait is really important due to my strategy of null-deployment, so I guess that makes it 3 out of the 6 are useful.
Unfortunately, in our meta (the ITC format which many of the West Coast tournaments follow), Tactical traits are not allowed.
For Command Traits, the one you got is probably one of the best ones there. Everything else, however, is pretty much crap unless you are running an Assault-heavy Tyranid list.
Master of vanguard is ok, but if you have a bastion and coms, cmd traits might be as useful as strategic.
What's the best way to deal with a Firebase Support Cadre? I recently introduced my friend to it as he wanted to beat a certain Raptors player that keeps beating him badly (of which I played against and won to show him how to beat Raptors) and now I can't seem to win against him when he brings it, especially when he adds a Buffmander to it.
Doesn't help that the club we go to does not have a lot of terrain but that's a whole different issue.
Frozocrone wrote: What's the best way to deal with a Firebase Support Cadre? I recently introduced my friend to it as he wanted to beat a certain Raptors player that keeps beating him badly (of which I played against and won to show him how to beat Raptors) and now I can't seem to win against him when he brings it, especially when he adds a Buffmander to it.
Doesn't help that the club we go to does not have a lot of terrain but that's a whole different issue.
Mawlocs from down under.
Flyrants from up above.
And in between, some psychic powers to boot - Paroxysm, Horror and even Warp Blast to insta-kill those broadsides.
Most importantly, play to the objectives and let him shoot at your flyrants.
Frozocrone wrote: What's the best way to deal with a Firebase Support Cadre? I recently introduced my friend to it as he wanted to beat a certain Raptors player that keeps beating him badly (of which I played against and won to show him how to beat Raptors) and now I can't seem to win against him when he brings it, especially when he adds a Buffmander to it.
Doesn't help that the club we go to does not have a lot of terrain but that's a whole different issue.
If buffmander is joined to HYMP broadsides, you should stay clear of them. Statistically, they will kill a flyrant (or Mawloc) a turn. They only have 36" range, and are not very mobile so you can try to stay clear of them. Pick off the other broadsides if you can. Play EW or ITC missions, and dance around until turn 5 when you can jump on objectives.
I'm dubious about the Mawlocs. They are fine if you aren't playing with multi-level terrain, but if you are there is no reason the Broadsides won't just hang out on upper levels immune from Mawlocs. In my club we've got lots and lots of multi-level terrain. Also, unless you mishap, chances are you only get one drop, so you've got to get lucky for it to be worth it. I think of Broadsides as a unit that Mawlocs are generally useless against because I never see them at ground level.
A Barbed Heirodule is a pretty good answer. Buffmander + Missilesides can kill him eventually, but he can threaten them right back. All you need is Buffmander to fail one save and he is ID'd, and Barbie can charge right upfield to try to assault stuff.
If you are looking to tailor, you can drop a couple of Tfexes in Tyrannocytes. As easily as Tau kill TMC's, Tfexes are tough enough to survive quite a bit. If you drop 2 Tfexes, one will survive to make it into assault, and will likely sweep a unit of broadsides, though watch out for the riptide which can kill most TMC's in assault eventually. Might as well put Shredder Beatles on them.
Leadership tests are in your favor. If you do manage to pick off one broadside, it is common that the survivors will fail moral and run. If for some reason you get close enough with your flyrants, try out psychic scream. It is one of the few cases where a neurothrope in a pod might be useful.
If you want to swarm him with gants, you can outflank two units of mixed termagants (15 Fleshborers, 15 Devourers). Outflank them via Hive commander. Just remember that on the turn they come in, you have to either congaline them across the field, or fly a flyrant up to give them synapse. Combine this with 60 Gargoyles or Hormagants, and you have a pretty good counter depending what else he has in his army.
Buffmander is your problem. the Broadsides are good, but if you find some way to neutralize buffmander (say a Gargoyle tarpit, or assault with a Tfex) then you've got your problem mostly solved.
So I guess Im switching over to taking Tyranid lists that are fun to play and that I like as opposed to efficient and streamlined...theres only so much fun four Devourer/Electroshock flyrants can provide before it becomes a stagnant build. I'd much rather do well with a list I enjoy than a list thats cookie cutter.
Locally there is about 1 1500pt tournament a month, todays another. Im taking this list with a full stop melee tyrant in the mix, even taking the ymgarl factor (LOL).
(Using a CAD and Leviathan)
3x Flyrant with Devs and Electro
1x Flyrant w/Reaper, Adrenal Glands, Old Adversary, Ymgarl Factor, ScyTal (The Daemon Prince of Tyrants)
Tervigon
Venomthrope
5x Mucolids
Mawloc
With no OS Im not likely to do well in a lot of scenarios, and Im not careful I will give up first blood easily. Didnt take SkyTyrant due to a lack of points and Im not sure I like giving up the freedom to go swooping.
Still, it sounds fun and Im looking forward to playing it.
Iechine wrote: So I guess Im switching over to taking Tyranid lists that are fun to play and that I like as opposed to efficient and streamlined...theres only so much fun four Devourer/Electroshock flyrants can provide before it becomes a stagnant build. I'd much rather do well with a list I enjoy than a list thats cookie cutter.
Locally there is about 1 1500pt tournament a month, todays another. Im taking this list with a full stop melee tyrant in the mix, even taking the ymgarl factor (LOL).
(Using a CAD and Leviathan)
3x Flyrant with Devs and Electro
1x Flyrant w/Reaper, Adrenal Glands, Old Adversary, Ymgarl Factor, ScyTal (The Daemon Prince of Tyrants)
Tervigon
Venomthrope
5x Mucolids
Mawloc
With no OS Im not likely to do well in a lot of scenarios, and Im not careful I will give up first blood easily. Didnt take SkyTyrant due to a lack of points and Im not sure I like giving up the freedom to go swooping.
Still, it sounds fun and Im looking forward to playing it.
I came in second (I'm destined to always come in second), losing to Josh who placed 11th at Adepticon. I played him the second round and we tied primary but he won secondary which was controlling table quarters. He used a similar list to what he played at Adepticon, with 3 drop pods, lots of psychers and centurions.
My Death Tyrant actually did really well the whole day, if anything he focuses fire on himself because he's the one Tyrant who doesnt take off and stays near the Venomthrope. I noticed I was able to direct my opponents attention in all 3 rounds with him and thus their movement patterns, which helped. First was a white scars bike list, then josh, then a Necron list that as the Destroyer Cult and the...reclamation one I think?
He had ALL the Destroyers and Heavy destroyers in addition to tomblades and warrior blobs. I rolled hot on Tervigon spawning and was able to own the Relic the entire game, screening with some 30+ gaunts spawned and retreating back while my Tyrants focused down on a Warrior blob for the secondary (Kill a nominated unit) in addition to the attached warlord. It SUCKS how resilient they are to our firepower: A 4+ armor, 4+ reanimation re rolling 1's...The destroyers rerolling wounds also hurt. But all Tyrants but Melee tyrant lived, who himself took down quite a lot of tomblades.
Overall, I fell back in love with a Tervigon and will probably be running a similar list at Killadelphia, 3 traditional flyrants, a lord death flyant, an HQ tervigon and then a troop tervigon with gaunt accompaniment. Necrons will continue to be an issue and Im considering making biovores mandatory for taking out these consistent warrior blobs I've been seeing.
Tervigon + 30-gant tax is still a very viable base for a Tyranid army. If I wasn't running a null-deployment build, I'd go with the Tervigon in my army. Necrons are going to bring biovores back in vogue. Lastly, instead of a melee-rant, I'd probably go with a dimachaeron. Definitely a different build than the one I normally run but one that I think could be a lot of fun as well.
The Dima is just too slow for me. He's awesome, but in the handful of games I gave him, not once did he make it into assault. He didnt always die, its just by the time he got where he needed to be Tyrants had already taken care of the issue.
To reiterate, the full stop melee Tyrant is for fun. While I cant confirm or deny that the Ymgarl factor will be used again (It equals a Biovore) I definitely DID enjoy having the choices available yesterday. He's a typical Daemon prince costed, strength 9 tyrant with fleet, 6 attacks on the charge (Rerolling 1's to hit and all failed wounds) at initiative 8 with a permanent 4+ cover save (or 2+ with malanthrope nearby on turns 1&2) in addition to his psychic powers. No viable targets? He can at least still swoop and use his electroshock grubs and vector. To be honest, he's a lot of fun and that adds a lot to my list in itself.
Quick question, what's the best way to deal with CentStar? I had the luxury of playing against it with my Necrons whom I was trying out and I was lucky he didn't get Perfect Timing, things could have been over so quickly (that said, I failed a vast majority of my cover saves and only RP kept me alive).
My plan was to ignore it and maybe drown it in bodies. Something like two Flyrants, two Tervigons, two units of 30 gants and Harpy w/ HVC. or something to that effect. Would that be a good take all comers list? Will be going to a tournament soon with Relic Whirlwind Scorpius's being common as anything (Battle of Keylek included for S8 AP3 Ignore Cover Barage :O) so I don't think Venom/Malan will be a good pick.
Not much to add, except have enough Warp Charges to deny like crazy. Even it you fail, you force the foe to roll a lot of dice, and that improves the chance of perils.
jy2 wrote: Oh, I forgot, here's my 4th tip against the centurionstar:
4. Pray he doesn't get Perfect Timing.
I faced it against my Necrons at the weekend so WC were scarce. I was so thankful that the number three didn't show up, probably helped bring a win to the metallic legion!
I was thinking of going two Flyrants and two Tervigons with a lot of Termagant Troops, maybe a Mawloc to fill points. 6 WC should help deny one or two and bodies should mitigate the damage
Hey guys, ill be taking my lictor shame variant I have been playing around with in my spare time to the internet tonight.
Ill be playing my buddy trevor's tau daemons in an 1850 killadelphia mission (the gt packet can be found at http://www.killadelphiaopen.com)
The stream can be found here http://www.twitch.tv/sgvideo and it starts at 7est! (the game cast will be uploaded to youtube for those who are unable to make it, and are still interested in watching!)
So as someone who cant math or know the Necron weapon values particularly well, can anyone crunch whats safer for a Flyrant against most Necron weapons: Swooping and not jinking or Gliding w/a 2+ cover.
krootman. wrote: Hey guys, ill be taking my lictor shame variant I have been playing around with in my spare time to the internet tonight.
Ill be playing my buddy trevor's tau daemons in an 1850 killadelphia mission (the gt packet can be found at http://www.killadelphiaopen.com)
The stream can be found here http://www.twitch.tv/sgvideo and it starts at 7est! (the game cast will be uploaded to youtube for those who are unable to make it, and are still interested in watching!)
Looking forwards to the battle!
My money is on the bugs. Riptides without Markerlight support just isn't the same.
jy2 wrote: Oh, I forgot, here's my 4th tip against the centurionstar:
4. Pray he doesn't get Perfect Timing.
I faced it against my Necrons at the weekend so WC were scarce. I was so thankful that the number three didn't show up, probably helped bring a win to the metallic legion!
I was thinking of going two Flyrants and two Tervigons with a lot of Termagant Troops, maybe a Mawloc to fill points. 6 WC should help deny one or two and bodies should mitigate the damage
Watch out. He can take out those tervigons with relative ease. Then your termagant troops are going to go crazy (sorta). Of course, this is assuming he gets P.T. and he gets it off successfully.
Highly recommended for you to throw in 1 or maybe even 2 mawlocs in there. IMO you don't need 2 tervigons. I'd rather spend the points for the 2nd tervigon on a mawloc and/or lictors instead.
Good luck!
Iechine wrote: So as someone who cant math or know the Necron weapon values particularly well, can anyone crunch whats safer for a Flyrant against most Necron weapons: Swooping and not jinking or Gliding w/a 2+ cover.
Assuming 10 warriors firing S4 gauss shooting within rapid-fire range. For this example, I will ignore extraneous factors such as Prefered Enemy, BS buff by Triarch Stalker or FNP on flyrants.
Vs Swooping flyrant: 20x shots x 1/6 hit x 1/6 wound x 1/3 failed saves = .185W
Vs Gliding flyrant with 2+ cover: 20x shots x 2/3 hit x 1/6 wound x 1/6 failed saves = .37W
Thus, swooping flyrant with regular save is 2x more survivable than a gliding flyrant with 2+ cover.
Anytime, I am actually thinking about droping the 4th flyrant down to 3 and dropping the coms relay, and running deathleapers formation. In malestrom missions the lictors have been huge for me. Also the malenthrope allows you to reliably start the flyrants on the table.
Frozocrone wrote: While there is substance to the rumours I'm waiting for the actual Codex these days.
Agreed.
BTW, as a Tyranid player, I'm not too concerned. It is looking as if their AA will be getting weaker (just like Necrons did). Now that's a good thing for our flyrants.
Anytime, I am actually thinking about droping the 4th flyrant down to 3 and dropping the coms relay, and running deathleapers formation. In malestrom missions the lictors have been huge for me. Also the malenthrope allows you to reliably start the flyrants on the table.
I think there are many ways to do this. Increasing the MSU body count can be a good thing as long as you realize that you will be reducing your offense and that you will still have trouble against ObSec armies.
Frozocrone wrote: While there is substance to the rumours I'm waiting for the actual Codex these days.
Agreed.
BTW, as a Tyranid player, I'm not too concerned. It is looking as if their AA will be getting weaker (just like Necrons did). Now that's a good thing for our flyrants.
Don't get me wrong, I was all doom and gloom, considering a Dakkafex is 150 for 12 shots and 5 bikes are 135 for 20 S6 shots, with greater range, Ob.Sec and more mobility.
After thinking about it for sometime, you have to remember that they are Marine stats with a Jink save - and jinking means a reduced damage output. Our S6 platforms are usually T6 W4 so can take a bit of a beating before hitting the dust and can usually claim a good cover save without reducing damage output.
Frozocrone wrote: While there is substance to the rumours I'm waiting for the actual Codex these days.
Agreed.
BTW, as a Tyranid player, I'm not too concerned. It is looking as if their AA will be getting weaker (just like Necrons did). Now that's a good thing for our flyrants.
Don't get me wrong, I was all doom and gloom, considering a Dakkafex is 150 for 12 shots and 5 bikes are 135 for 20 S6 shots, with greater range, Ob.Sec and more mobility.
After thinking about it for sometime, you have to remember that they are Marine stats with a Jink save - and jinking means a reduced damage output. Our S6 platforms are usually T6 W4 so can take a bit of a beating before hitting the dust and can usually claim a good cover save without reducing damage output.
The Jetbikes range and mobility affords them a better chance to use their damage output without buying a transport like a Pod, but while they are less durable they can use their JSJ to escape potential harm. But, I don't think that will be the broken part of the Eldar Codex. (Prices/Rules pending) I think that Wraithguard with Destroyer Weapons is going to be the most constroversial part of the codex, let alone Wraithknights...
Frozocrone wrote: While there is substance to the rumours I'm waiting for the actual Codex these days.
Agreed.
BTW, as a Tyranid player, I'm not too concerned. It is looking as if their AA will be getting weaker (just like Necrons did). Now that's a good thing for our flyrants.
Don't get me wrong, I was all doom and gloom, considering a Dakkafex is 150 for 12 shots and 5 bikes are 135 for 20 S6 shots, with greater range, Ob.Sec and more mobility.
After thinking about it for sometime, you have to remember that they are Marine stats with a Jink save - and jinking means a reduced damage output. Our S6 platforms are usually T6 W4 so can take a bit of a beating before hitting the dust and can usually claim a good cover save without reducing damage output.
The Jetbikes range and mobility affords them a better chance to use their damage output without buying a transport like a Pod, but while they are less durable they can use their JSJ to escape potential harm. But, I don't think that will be the broken part of the Eldar Codex. (Prices/Rules pending) I think that Wraithguard with Destroyer Weapons is going to be the most constroversial part of the codex, let alone Wraithknights...
Wraithguards will have a lot more problems against flyrants than bikers will. On top of that, we get our 2+ cover unless they roll a 6. Honestly, I'm not as concerned about wraithguards with D than I am about normal bikers.....from a Tyranid's perspective (other armies should be scared, though). More importantly, I want to see the points costs of these new D units before I make judgement.
As for the wraithknights, I expect costs to definitely go up with supply be limited to maybe 1 per detachment due to the fact that it will be a Lord of War. In other words, I am not too concerned about the WK as they will probably come with some self-limitations within the detachment organization.
Well it is going to be who gets to alpha strike strike first...
Most people will probably run 5-6 units of 5 bikes and maybe one 10 man bike unit with the farseer. Force that LD8 moral test on those smaller units, by killing at least 2. 5 flyrants can definitely put a lot of wounds on multiple bike units in one turn. Still its gonna be a very tough time for nids to win maelstrom against bike spam.
jifel wrote: Jy2, did you ever put up those BatReps from when you took 5 Flyrants to the LVO? I haven't had a chance to use it myself, I'm looking for some insight to share with my ATC teammates.
No, not yet. I haven't been very motivated recently to write my LVO batreps. I didn't do very good there, at least not to my standards. Perhaps I will go back one of these days to write them, but currently, I've been kind of lazy writing-wise.
But for the people here, I will give a brief summary of my performance there.
Jy2's LVO 2015 Summary.
Game #1
Played against Mike Fox and his beautiful Orks. He was running the Bully Boyz formation (I think) and his orks were gorgeous. He didn't, however, have much in the ways of anti-air other than one unit of tracktor cannons (the ones that ground FMC's at will). Now normally, meganobs can take on Tyranids by just staying on objectives and trying to weather our shooting, but I happened to steal the initiative from him. From there, I took out all of his trukks on T1 and he really had no chance. He did manage to ground and assault/kill 1 flyrant but it really wasn't much of a game. 10-0 to Pentyrants.
Game #2
This round I played against John Parsons (krootman here on dakka) and his Eldar. He ran a triple wraithknights, 3-4 wave serpents and some jetbike troops in a Victory Point mission. John did a great job of keeping his skimmers out of range of my flyrants and with Shrouding on one of his farseers, I really couldn't do much against wave serpents with 2+ jinks. So instead of focusing on his serpents, I opted to go after his jetbike troops instead. However, my dice really wasn't that hot this game as twice, it took 2 flyrants just to finish off 1 unit of 3 jetbikes. John ended up crushing me on the Maelstrom secondary and managed to win the Primary by 1-VP. I believe the final score was 9-1 to Eldar, with Linebreaker being my only point (and my Warlord survived to deny him a complete victory).
Game #3
Here I played against Space Wolves/Space Marines with a Sicarian, thunderwolves, the Shield Eternal Chapter Master and centurions in a drop pod. Honestly, I don't remember much about this game, other than I got 10-pts from it. I might have lost 1 flyrant.
Game #4
Played against mechdar this round. 5 wave serpents with 2x5 dire avengers, 2x5 fire dragons and 1x5 dark reapers as well as 2 wraithknights. A very fun opponent who brought a whole cooler of jello-rum shots. In the end, he only had 1 wraithknight and 1 unit of dire dire avengers remaining. I lost 2 flyrants and my mawloc. Another 10-pts for me. At the end of the game, I took a picture of all the jello shots that we consumed:
Spoiler:
It started off as - for every flyrant you kill, I'll eat a shot.
It then became - for every wound you do to one of my flyrants, I'll eat a shot.
It ended up as - f*ck it, I'm just gonna eat the jello shots.
Game #5
So after 4-games, I am at 31-pts. I still have a slim shot to make it to Day #3, but I'll probably need to ace my next 2 games with perfect 10's in order to do so. Well, it turned out that the cut-off was 49-pts. Game #5, I played against Sean Nayden and his GT-winning #Lictorshame list. This game, I played like a noob and fell for the bait he set. The reason was because I've never played against another bug list with my bugs throughout all of 6th and 7th and so I totally forgot about Shadows. In any case, you can read about that report here:
Gosh, I played like such a noob in that game. I can't believe I fell for the Psychic Scream-Shadows in the Warp trick. Believe it or not, this was the first time ever (since 5th Ed.) that I played against another bug player with my bugs. I completely forgot about Shadows in the Warp affecting my own flyrants. As such, I fell for Sean's bait beautifully.
And while this is no excuse, but I had gak for powers. Between 5 flyrants, I didn't get a single Catalyst or Psychic Scream! (Actually for the course of the entire 6-game tournament with 30 psychic powers, I only got Catalyst maybe 3 times.) In any case, well played by Sean. He purposely gave up First Blood (lictor in the bastion) but in return, he got 2 flyrants. From then on, I was just playing from behind.
One thing to note is how deadly his mawlocs were. 2 of them came up and landed directly, killing both my malanthrope and one of my lictors on Turn 2. I sure envy his mawlocs. My mawloc only landed directly on target just once throughout the entire tournament (6-games). However, 3 times throughout, my mawloc misshaped and killed itself. I swear, just not one of my better tournaments.
Game #6
So my last game of the day, I played against another GT-winner. Not only did he win a GT with his Tau, but he actually won the ITC Overall and Best Tau as well. I'm talking about Paul McKelvey. He brought his ninja-Tau. Basically it was a bunch of suits, 2x2 tetras, 1 riptide, bunker and the Tau Firebase Cadre (that's another riptide and 2x3 broadsides). His list has got a lot of shenanigans but it actually didn't have a lot of Skyfire. So I thought to myself, ok, I should get this one. Man, was I wrong. Paul got lucky and managed to get 2 Skyfire Nexus for the objectives and his reserves came in on them to down 2 flyrants. From there, I just couldn't kill off his units as fast as he could kill mine. The score was closer than the actual game because I was able to get more Maelstrom objectives than my opponent, but my flyrants got slapped down hard in this game. In the end, I only had 1 lictor left claiming Linebreaker. Paul got Primary, First Blood, Warlord and Linebreaker for a 7-4 Tau victory.
Anytime, I am actually thinking about droping the 4th flyrant down to 3 and dropping the coms relay, and running deathleapers formation. In malestrom missions the lictors have been huge for me. Also the malenthrope allows you to reliably start the flyrants on the table.
I think there are many ways to do this. Increasing the MSU body count can be a good thing as long as you realize that you will be reducing your offense and that you will still have trouble against ObSec armies.
Yea, but I think I can mitigate that with solid objective placement, put the lictors on an objective in cover and just wait. That said I could see msu marines being an issue though.
Anytime, I am actually thinking about droping the 4th flyrant down to 3 and dropping the coms relay, and running deathleapers formation. In malestrom missions the lictors have been huge for me. Also the malenthrope allows you to reliably start the flyrants on the table.
I think there are many ways to do this. Increasing the MSU body count can be a good thing as long as you realize that you will be reducing your offense and that you will still have trouble against ObSec armies.
I think dropping down to three Flyrants and ditching the bastion puts your offense at too much risk. The Malanthrope is great, but against Serpents, Cent Star, Psychic Shriek, etc you're almost guaranteed to lose 1-2 Flyrants if you go second. I think the benefit to the bastion is having all of your threats hit the table at the same time as well never having to glide the Flyrants. Look at the game you played vs Tau/Demons, if you had four flyrants, two mawlocs, five lictors all coming in at once, the obvious choice to intercept the lictors with SMS becomes a much more difficult choice.
I personally play almost the exact list as you, except with three mawlocs, and the ability to have your entire army which is extrememly mobile come in at once without retaliation is one if its best strengths.
Did your last opponent play FBSC Broadsides with any Missile Drones as ablative wounds? or where they just inside the bunker?
Also, if it's not too much to ask, could you give me more details on his list? I'd greatly appreciate it!
No, he didn't run missile drones, because then, I believe the squad would be too large to fit into the bunker. The other unit had the Commander in it and they had a special wargear (sorry I lost his list so I can't recall what it was, maybe Positional Relay?) that lets the unit come in on the same board edge as the unit with the wargear. Unfortunately for me, they came in on an objective and he rolled Skyfire for it. Then another unit of 3 suits with plasmas deepstruck onto another objective with Skyfire as well. BTW, it was markerlights from the tetras that helped the broadsides kill a flyrant on the turn they came in.
Off the top of my head, his list was something like this (sorry, but I lost it):
Anytime, I am actually thinking about droping the 4th flyrant down to 3 and dropping the coms relay, and running deathleapers formation. In malestrom missions the lictors have been huge for me. Also the malenthrope allows you to reliably start the flyrants on the table.
I think there are many ways to do this. Increasing the MSU body count can be a good thing as long as you realize that you will be reducing your offense and that you will still have trouble against ObSec armies.
Yea, but I think I can mitigate that with solid objective placement, put the lictors on an objective in cover and just wait. That said I could see msu marines being an issue though.
I've tried the Deathleaper Assassin Brood (DAB) a few times. Here is my opinion of the 2 builds:
Flyrant-spam (Pentyrant) - "All right, let's go and kill sh*t!"
Lictor-spam (DAB) - "All right, let's try not to die."
DAB is fun in its own way. However, it just lacks the punch of a flyrant-spam army and in my games with them, I oftentimes just wished I had a little more firepower.
It is slightly better than flyrant-spam in Maelstrom objectives. However, it's got some weaknesses as well:
1. You are at the mercy of the terrain. If terrain is lite, your lictors are in trouble. Heck, the whole army is in trouble.
2. If the army has ways to ignore cover (i.e. the better armies), you will have trouble.
3. You can put your objectives in cover. Then again, your opponent can put his objectives out in the open so it's a 50/50 shot on objectives-based missions.
4. Of course, as we've already mentioned, ObSec armies just don't care. However, flyrant-spam can more easily deal with these types of armies (i.e. marine armies) due to their firepower. A lictor-spam army will have more trouble against these types of armies (with the exception of mechdar, which is probably going away anyways).
Frozocrone wrote: While there is substance to the rumours I'm waiting for the actual Codex these days.
Agreed.
BTW, as a Tyranid player, I'm not too concerned. It is looking as if their AA will be getting weaker (just like Necrons did). Now that's a good thing for our flyrants.
Don't get me wrong, I was all doom and gloom, considering a Dakkafex is 150 for 12 shots and 5 bikes are 135 for 20 S6 shots, with greater range, Ob.Sec and more mobility.
After thinking about it for sometime, you have to remember that they are Marine stats with a Jink save - and jinking means a reduced damage output. Our S6 platforms are usually T6 W4 so can take a bit of a beating before hitting the dust and can usually claim a good cover save without reducing damage output.
Actually, they don't need to jink because Eldar jetbikes come with 3+ stock so no need to jink against our shooting, unless they are firing at our FMC's in which case it wouldn't matter.
At least they don't ignore cover so if you can get your firebase (along with malanthrope) into ruins and within range of those bikers, then you will be getting 2+ saves. Unfortunately, that will probably be a task easier said than done, especially when you consider the rather limited range of our devourers.
Killadelphia is fast approaching, anyone else going? It will be up against 'classic' Eldar so no need to worry about it right now. My wife's Eldar army will probably be looking a lot different so Ill get plenty of in house practice against that new issue.
Hopefully playtesting my list this weekend. More of a fun, mildly competitive army.
jy2 wrote: I hear that the Killadelphia is pretty open in terms of the number of detachments. So are you bringing your SkyTyrant + Leviathan list Iechine?
I believe krootman will be going, though I think he said that he wasn't bringing his bugs, only practicing with them. I could be wrong.
Using a CAD and Hive Fleet I am taking
3x Flyrant standard loadout
1x Superbeast Flyrant (Reaper/Adrenal/Ymgarl/Old Adversary) <--Not sure if he needs Shreddershard or Electroshock, havent picked one yet
Tervigon w/electro
Tervigon w/electro w/30 Gants
Malanthrope
Mawloc
3x Mucolid
A list that will do great against some, terrible against others, but is very fun to play so hopefully I'll enjoy all 6 rounds.
Frozocrone wrote: Would a Bastion work as a proxy size wise for a Void Shield?
If not, I've always got a Tyrannocyte I can place upside down xD
A bastion is roughly the same size as a VSG, but the VSG is more open (You can see through it).
I'm not pleased with an uptick of Strength D in the Eldar codex. As JY2 says, the main units in the Tyranid codex that need to worry about it are those units not called flyrants. While flyrants are great, each release makes it harder and harder to field a more varied and interesting army. I hate the idea of bugs as a monobuild.
Additionally, if we thought Wraith Knights were bad before, now they are Strength D, have FNP, are resistant to ID and poison, get Stomp, and cost 55 more points than before. So we will be seeing plenty of those on the table. Also, a Wraith Knight delivers roughly what our Barbed Heirodule does except at 1/2 of the cost. Every bit as tough, way better in assault. Better at shooting if shooting at Vehicles or MCs. Worse at shooting if shooting at large model count units.
At least mechdar is somewhat nerfed. It almost makes me feel better that a TMC can't kill a Rhino in one round of assault, and loses combat to basically any dreadnought tougher than a Killa Kan.
Frozocrone wrote: Would a Bastion work as a proxy size wise for a Void Shield?
If not, I've always got a Tyrannocyte I can place upside down xD
The problem is as Tag said. Actual VSG:
As you can see, there are holes in it so you can't really hide flyrants or even the malanthrope. The bastion blocks all LOS but the size is somewhat comparable.
Now with that said, here is a pic of the VSG I used:
Although it does block LOS, it's actually much smaller than the actual model. But the main thing is the rule-of-cool. If your conversion looks cool and is somewhat themed, then most people won't object.
BTW, here is how my VSG performed at the LVO:
Game 1 Vs Orks
It didn't do a thing. My opponent didn't have much shooting and I stole the Initiative to go 1st. Then my flyrants flew out of VSG range.
Game 2 Vs Mechdar
It didn't do well. Wraithknights shot first (they shot directly at my VSG), depleted and then proceeded to destroy it with a lucky 6 on the damage table with the 1st shot that penetrated it.
Game 3 Vs Space Wolves/Space Marines
It didn't do a thing. My opponent brought mainly an assault army, with some shooting in drop pods (centurions). However, once again, I went first and flew out of VSG range early.
Game 4 Vs Mechdar
It didn't do too much. Again, I went 1st and advance all of my flyrants. It did help to discourage my opponent from shooting into my backcourt units, but overall, he was too busy trying to shoot down my flyrants.
Game 5 Vs #Lictorshame Tyranids
Again, I went 1st (Wow! I went 1st a lot!). Advance my flyrants out of VSG range. It was a flyrant-on-flyrant battle outside of the VSG so the VSG once again, did not contribute to the battle (other than to protect my opponent's forces as they deepstrike into my VSG range).
Game 6 Vs Tau
Finally, my only game where the VSG was useful, against Tau. Unfortunately, he had a lot of shooting and was able to deplete all 3 void shields with his broadsides before his riptides started to put a few wounds here and there on my flyrants.
Then, when my opponent's reserves came in, they killed 2 flyrants, the malanthrope and my VSG on the turn they came in.
Overall, for my list at least, I didn't find it as necessary as I would have liked. It only benefitted my army in 1 game (out of 6) and even then, it just wasn't enough.
In general, I would have preferred to have gone 2nd, but going 1st basically rendered the VSG unnecessary in most of my games.
jy2 wrote: BTW, here is how my VSG performed at the LVO:
I dropped the VSG from my LVO list, and it turned out to be a massive mistake. Both of my losses came when my opponent's 1st shooting attack was a Lynx 6'ing my Barbed Heirodule while it had a 2+ cover save. I could have won either game had it taken 2 turns for my opponent to kill barbie.
Those were the only 2 games I lacked for offense, and a VSG would have kept my offensive production higher.
997Turbo wrote:I think dropping down to three Flyrants and ditching the bastion puts your offense at too much risk. The Malanthrope is great, but against Serpents, Cent Star, Psychic Shriek, etc you're almost guaranteed to lose 1-2 Flyrants if you go second. I think the benefit to the bastion is having all of your threats hit the table at the same time as well never having to glide the Flyrants. Look at the game you played vs Tau/Demons, if you had four flyrants, two mawlocs, five lictors all coming in at once, the obvious choice to intercept the lictors with SMS becomes a much more difficult choice.
I personally play almost the exact list as you, except with three mawlocs, and the ability to have your entire army which is extrememly mobile come in at once without retaliation is one if its best strengths.
Just my .02
Yea, I wasn't too sold on ditching the bastion to be honest. In that vid bat rep I was considering starting the flyrants off the board but with no marker support I wanted to extra turns of shooting. I was really hoping to down a riptide turn one so I could be super aggressive with my 5 lictors, of course that didn't work out :/
jy2 wrote:
Yea, but I think I can mitigate that with solid objective placement, put the lictors on an objective in cover and just wait. That said I could see msu marines being an issue though.
I've tried the Deathleaper Assassin Brood (DAB) a few times. Here is my opinion of the 2 builds:
Flyrant-spam (Pentyrant) - "All right, let's go and kill sh*t!"
Lictor-spam (DAB) - "All right, let's try not to die."
DAB is fun in its own way. However, it just lacks the punch of a flyrant-spam army and in my games with them, I oftentimes just wished I had a little more firepower.
It is slightly better than flyrant-spam in Maelstrom objectives. However, it's got some weaknesses as well:
1. You are at the mercy of the terrain. If terrain is lite, your lictors are in trouble. Heck, the whole army is in trouble.
2. If the army has ways to ignore cover (i.e. the better armies), you will have trouble.
3. You can put your objectives in cover. Then again, your opponent can put his objectives out in the open so it's a 50/50 shot on objectives-based missions.
4. Of course, as we've already mentioned, ObSec armies just don't care. However, flyrant-spam can more easily deal with these types of armies (i.e. marine armies) due to their firepower. A lictor-spam army will have more trouble against these types of armies (with the exception of mechdar, which is probably going away anyways).
1)For killadepphia I can tell you there will be a ton of good terrain and at least 2 large los blobkers on each table, its also player placed so you can use those rules to your advantage and put the terrain exactly where you need it to go. This has helped greatly for malestrom.
2) the bigest worry is tay, you can use even 3 flyrants to usually hem serpents to where you want them and then use your lictors to grab you malestrom points or land behind the serpents and try to force some jinks
3) Objectives are good in cover, lictors can usually handle small units that are designed to just sit on objectives. Anything larger then basic sized units you can always multi charge with more lictors.
4) I am not sure how much I lose by cutting a 4th flyrant, and adding the lictor formation. Also wouldnt be able to take a bastion, so theres that,I feel like it would require testing, but with killadelphia fast approaching, I have to get back to playing my eldar to get ready.
Iechine wrote:Killadelphia is fast approaching, anyone else going? It will be up against 'classic' Eldar so no need to worry about it right now. My wife's Eldar army will probably be looking a lot different so Ill get plenty of in house practice against that new issue.
Hopefully playtesting my list this weekend. More of a fun, mildly competitive army.
As part of the team hosting the event, Ill be there with my single cad eldar for one last ride. We are doing alot of play testing at the shop to get ready for the gt, so if you want to test with us and get an idea of the terrian that will be used you should come on down.
jy2 wrote:I hear that the Killadelphia is pretty open in terms of the number of detachments. So are you bringing your SkyTyrant + Leviathan list Iechine?
I believe krootman will be going, though I think he said that he wasn't bringing his bugs, only practicing with them. I could be wrong.
Yup just helping other people get ready for the event. We dont have too many bug players at the shop so some people asked me to break out the shame to get some test games in with it.
Killa is 2 source no detchment ban
997Turbo wrote:I will be at Killadelphia as well. They are actually fairly standard two detachments, no LoW, etc
4x Flyrants
6x Lictors
3x Mawlocs
5x Mucolids
1x bastion/Comms
Looks nasty, I would add a malenthrope or even a venonthrope in there as it gives you options for starting the flyrants on the board vs opponents who are lacking ignores cover
Iechine wrote:
Using a CAD and Hive Fleet I am taking
3x Flyrant standard loadout
1x Superbeast Flyrant (Reaper/Adrenal/Ymgarl/Old Adversary) <--Not sure if he needs Shreddershard or Electroshock, havent picked one yet
Tervigon w/electro
Tervigon w/electro w/30 Gants
Malanthrope
Mawloc
3x Mucolid
A list that will do great against some, terrible against others, but is very fun to play so hopefully I'll enjoy all 6 rounds.
Take electroshock on all your flyrants, i cant stress how fantastic it is. Looks like a fun list too looking forward to seeing everyone there!!
Just came back from Warhammer World for a little 1250 tournament with my friends. You should go if you ever get the chance
I came second out of eight but I could have got first! :O I forgot to move my Termagants last turn onto an Objective to claim an extra victory point (final score between top two was 20 VP to my 19, if it was tied then it would go to how many games you won, of which I won all mine and first lost two). Alas, here is how it went down.
Game 1 - SM Minotaurs Opted to go second. Void Shield put in a shift against the Relic Whirlwind Scorpius, blocking it from hurting my Flyrant. My opponent had really bad rolls and it got worse once the Flyrants were airborne. Final score was 5-0 to the Nids.
Game 2 - Astra Militaru with Knight Again, opted to go second and started to regret it after seeing my models die. A few Las Cannon squads pierced shields very quickly and then Wyverns made short work of my Infantry. Knight slowly moved up, didn't do a lot of damage to Flyrants as they had the 2+ jink. Once the Flyrants were airborne things became easier, I was able to make enough space behind my opponents ADL to land and get a Psychic Scream off, giving me Linebreaker, StW and First Blood. This was the only game I lost my Flyrant, due to the Knight charging - it had 2 HP left but I could only do 1 HP with the D3 hits (rolled 1), then whiffed smash! Oy oy. Final score was 5-4 - I think I might have miscalculated my score but it's too late to do anything now.
Game 3 - Tau w/ Firebase Support Cadre I was very familiar against this list as my friend usually fields it. This time however, he had given it to a mutual friend who was learning the game. Again, opted to go second to mitigate shooting and the VSG again, pulled it's weight, completely taking one unit of Broadsides firepower. I rolled well for Psychic Powers and was able to get a Psychic Shriek off for First Blood which allowed me to concentrate on the Broadsides. Final score was 9-1 but could have been 10-0 - this was quite irritating as 1st place had gained no VP in this round so I would have clinched it had I remembered to move my models (and not have the TO tell me to hurry up ).
I quite liked the list and know how I would improve it to 1500. This is what I ran for 1250:
How are we feeling about Shreddershard Beetles on Tyrants with the upcoming Eldar changes?
Massed Strength D at range may push vehicles a little further out of favor, making Egrubs less attractive. On the other hand, Shreddershards are great if you can get 4-5 Jetbikes under the template, and have a slightly better chance to put a wound on a Wraithknight than BLW.
Xyptc wrote: How are we feeling about Shreddershard Beetles on Tyrants with the upcoming Eldar changes?
Massed Strength D at range may push vehicles a little further out of favor, making Egrubs less attractive. On the other hand, Shreddershards are great if you can get 4-5 Jetbikes under the template, and have a slightly better chance to put a wound on a Wraithknight than BLW.
If you hit 3 Jetbikes:
Egrubs: 0.67
DLarva: 0.83
SBeetles: 0.92
1 TL Devourer: 1.48
There is really no reason to use a template on bikes rather than a devourer unless you can get 6 of them, which is rarely going to happen.
I am playing a 1000 points Escalation game versus Necrons the upcoming week, and I'm looking for some advice regarding what units to take. We will be playing Crusade and I am expecting a Decurion Detachment with a Destroyer Cult in it.
I am thinking of something in the lines of the following:
Flyrant
Flyrant
Malanthrope
DS Rippers
Mucolid
Living Artillery Node
Should I go with this or should I take out one Flyrant for something else? Or even the second Flyrant for some better firepower against 4+ and 4+ RP now as we know that they aren't very effective against that?
Callylove wrote: I am playing a 1000 points Escalation game versus Necrons the upcoming week, and I'm looking for some advice regarding what units to take. We will be playing Crusade and I am expecting a Decurion Detachment with a Destroyer Cult in it.
I am thinking of something in the lines of the following:
Flyrant
Flyrant
Malanthrope
DS Rippers
Mucolid
Living Artillery Node
Should I go with this or should I take out one Flyrant for something else? Or even the second Flyrant for some better firepower against 4+ and 4+ RP now as we know that they aren't very effective against that?
Destroyer Cult is some rough stuff. It can ignore flyrant damage output all day long (3+/4++, 2 wounds each). The best answer is tarpits. Hormagants & Gargoyles Backed up by some malanthropes. If I were list tailoring, I would go that way. 2 x 20 Gargoyles. 2 x 20 Hormagants. 2 x Malanthrope. Shrikes to back them up with synapse. Give them BS's if you want to kill stuff. Maybe CC Flyrant (s). Once the tarpits are in place, the necrons are stalled except for the destroyer lord.
The other way to go is a Barbed Heirodule with a Malanthrope. So long as you keep Barbie in cover, he can kill the destroyers, and then deep strike rippers / Lictors onto objectives.
Frozocrone wrote: If the WK is the same as before with it's weapons then it's 2 single Str. D shots, or Str D close combat, so a GC Knight.
I think I prefer the volume of S10 shots from Barbie to be honest...time and playtesting will tell the story though
Agreed - but not necessarily for twice the price.
A hail of S10 AP3 shots is actually a damn effective way to gut a wraithknight - although sticking Feel No Pain on them means that it's unlikely to drop a wraithknight in a single turn anymore.
My idea of an unbound Overlord Swarm may have taken a bit of a kick in the teeth.....
Frozocrone wrote: If the WK is the same as before with it's weapons then it's 2 single Str. D shots, or Str D close combat, so a GC Knight.
I think I prefer the volume of S10 shots from Barbie to be honest...time and playtesting will tell the story though
Agreed - but not necessarily for twice the price.
A hail of S10 AP3 shots is actually a damn effective way to gut a wraithknight - although sticking Feel No Pain on them means that it's unlikely to drop a wraithknight in a single turn anymore.
My idea of an unbound Overlord Swarm may have taken a bit of a kick in the teeth.....
2 Wraith Knights will easily kill a Barbie in shooting (44% they 6 him, 3.56 wounds per turn otherwise). Meanwhile Barbie will do 3.33 wounds to one Wraith Knight per turn of shooting assuming no cover. Statistically in 2 rounds of shooting, the WK's will 6 the Heirodule (89% chance). Now I understand that the WK is a LOW and therefore is theoretically limited in the number taken, but if I could take a WK at 55 Points more than its old cost vs a Barbie at its current cost, I would prefer a WK 100% of the time.
Basically for the cost of a Barbie you can get a WK + a Flyrant + 2 Mucolids which is far superior. For 1/2 the points the WK should be 1/2 as good, not better in CC and 70% as good in shooting.
This at least gives me hope that Nids will have things like this adjusted to the appropriate power level in time. Sadly they just released the IA so no d weapons for TGC for some time but I bet there will be a new codex for Nids in 2016 given the crazy pace we're on
That always kind of bugged me - I wish there was a 'bio-titan scale' scything talon that granted Strength D.
On the other hand, we definitely wouldn't be getting that many attacks at WS6, I6 and destroyer attacks too.
One of the biggest problems biotitans have has always been destroyer attacks, because (unlike a knight or titan, and like a guard superheavy) they have no way of stopping a hit reaching them - they just have to tank the hit on a relatively limited stock of wounds.
If I field the overlord swarm, I think I'm going to have to pack some void shield generators - a friend of mine has some capillary towers I can purloin. Fortunately, void shields are about the best protection from destroyer fire you can get as a single hit only ever collapses a single shield, no matter how powerful the hit was.
We're discussing the Manufactorum Formation a bit on TTH. I haven't tried it (since digital-only formations have been banned in my region) but I'm about to. I'm not sure it can make it out of beer&pretzels land, but I'm kind of ok with that.
How would your best build look like at 1850-2000? I'm thinking about something like this:
So I have a question... what's our best way to kill the new Wraithknight? Obviously tarpitting it is also an option, but I am also curious as to if we have /any/ efficient means of killing the damn thing.
I'm not sure on the stats, but I think shooting wise outside of the Barbie discussed above an Exocrine is the best bet, whilst for melee a fairly decked out Skytyrant seems the best option despite ID being fairly nerfed against it? Obviously both have to hope for no 6s on hits against them of course, but at least the Skytyrant has a Swarm of Gargoyles to protect it on the way in. Anything else I'm missing?
A barbed Heirodule in cover stands a good chance actually. And is twice the cost... So it's not that great. Basically just fly around it and pray. A Skytyrant with Reaper honestly could do well but will get murdered by Jetbikes.
jifel wrote: A barbed Heirodule in cover stands a good chance actually. And is twice the cost... So it's not that great. Basically just fly around it and pray. A Skytyrant with Reaper honestly could do well but will get murdered by Jetbikes.
Barbie's got a pretty good chance. If the WK isn't in cover, Barbie can do 3.33 wounds a turn to it. On the other hand in 2 rounds of shooting the Wraith Knight has a 44% chance of 6'ing Barbie.
Skytyrant doesn't do as well as you think. It needs 3 rounds of combat to take the WK down. In 3 rounds, the WK is going to 6 the Flyrant.
Psychic Powers and Tarpits. Make your game plan around not killing it and losing a walking MC ever other turn to it. It is an absurdly undercosted LOW, and Tyranids don't really have an effective answer to it.
jifel wrote: A barbed Heirodule in cover stands a good chance actually. And is twice the cost... So it's not that great. Basically just fly around it and pray. A Skytyrant with Reaper honestly could do well but will get murdered by Jetbikes.
Barbie's got a pretty good chance. If the WK isn't in cover, Barbie can do 3.33 wounds a turn to it. On the other hand in 2 rounds of shooting the Wraith Knight has a 44% chance of 6'ing Barbie.
Skytyrant doesn't do as well as you think. It needs 3 rounds of combat to take the WK down. In 3 rounds, the WK is going to 6 the Flyrant.
Psychic Powers and Tarpits. Make your game plan around not killing it and losing a walking MC ever other turn to it. It is an absurdly undercosted LOW, and Tyranids don't really have an effective answer to it.
The Barbed Hierodule is a decent counter, the problem is that he's not a Points efficient one. If we have one Barby, then they may have 2 Wraithknights... As to the Skytyrant, remember that his 6s will ignore FNP, as well as causing d3 wounds to the Wraithknight. So, let's say a Flyrant with OA and Reaper charges a WK... 6 attacks hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s is 4.66 hits. On a 5+ to wound with shred, he causes 2.59 wounds. Half of those are a 6 to wound, so ID (goes to d3 wounds, average 2), and then ignore FNP, for 2.59 wounds. The other half (5s to wounds) is 1.3 wounds, which after FNP goes to 0.86 wounds, for a total of 3.45 wounds. Multiply this by 5/6 (for the attacks going from 6 to 5 for round 2, and the average wounds are 6.33 including the first round. Note that this is a full health Wraithknight with two D Cannons, and isn't even including the Gargoyles impact on the combat. Since the Flyrant is Initiative 8, the Wraithknight will only have one chance to stomp before he is (on average) killed, and so there is a 1/3 chance that he kills the Flyrant before averages kill him. Even if that happens, he will be tarpitted for a while and likely low on wounds, maybe even enough for the poisoned 6+ gargoyles to finish him eventually.
So, I must say that the Skytyrant is our most points efficient way to KILL a Wraithknight. Tarpit wise it is clearly a ton of Gargoyles, but this is the next best thing, as long as you can kill the Jetbikes!
I fell in love with the Skytyrant recently. He is my answer to Grav and I agree about him having a good chance of taking on the Wraithknight. Just pray for no 6's on that stomp! I even bought another box of Gargoyles to buff the unit up to 30 of the buggers.
So after a few games of using the Superbeast (Fully kitted out melee flyrant, including ymgarl) I have to say...I like it. It's had a role in every army I've played against he's had a role. I like that he draws my opponents attention, and that my other three flyrants can go off to do what they need to do.
With new Wraithknights out there roaming about, hopefully he can do some good.
Frozocrone wrote: Just came back from Warhammer World for a little 1250 tournament with my friends. You should go if you ever get the chance
I came second out of eight but I could have got first! :O I forgot to move my Termagants last turn onto an Objective to claim an extra victory point (final score between top two was 20 VP to my 19, if it was tied then it would go to how many games you won, of which I won all mine and first lost two). Alas, here is how it went down.
Spoiler:
Game 1 - SM Minotaurs Opted to go second. Void Shield put in a shift against the Relic Whirlwind Scorpius, blocking it from hurting my Flyrant. My opponent had really bad rolls and it got worse once the Flyrants were airborne. Final score was 5-0 to the Nids.
Game 2 - Astra Militaru with Knight Again, opted to go second and started to regret it after seeing my models die. A few Las Cannon squads pierced shields very quickly and then Wyverns made short work of my Infantry. Knight slowly moved up, didn't do a lot of damage to Flyrants as they had the 2+ jink. Once the Flyrants were airborne things became easier, I was able to make enough space behind my opponents ADL to land and get a Psychic Scream off, giving me Linebreaker, StW and First Blood. This was the only game I lost my Flyrant, due to the Knight charging - it had 2 HP left but I could only do 1 HP with the D3 hits (rolled 1), then whiffed smash! Oy oy. Final score was 5-4 - I think I might have miscalculated my score but it's too late to do anything now.
Game 3 - Tau w/ Firebase Support Cadre I was very familiar against this list as my friend usually fields it. This time however, he had given it to a mutual friend who was learning the game. Again, opted to go second to mitigate shooting and the VSG again, pulled it's weight, completely taking one unit of Broadsides firepower. I rolled well for Psychic Powers and was able to get a Psychic Shriek off for First Blood which allowed me to concentrate on the Broadsides. Final score was 9-1 but could have been 10-0 - this was quite irritating as 1st place had gained no VP in this round so I would have clinched it had I remembered to move my models (and not have the TO tell me to hurry up ).
I quite liked the list and know how I would improve it to 1500. This is what I ran for 1250:
Congrats! Very well done. Interesting that they allowed dual-CAD, but as long as you are not running 5-flyrants, then dual-CAD is the way to go (for ObSec).
Callylove wrote: I am playing a 1000 points Escalation game versus Necrons the upcoming week, and I'm looking for some advice regarding what units to take. We will be playing Crusade and I am expecting a Decurion Detachment with a Destroyer Cult in it.
I am thinking of something in the lines of the following:
Flyrant
Flyrant
Malanthrope
DS Rippers
Mucolid
Living Artillery Node
Should I go with this or should I take out one Flyrant for something else? Or even the second Flyrant for some better firepower against 4+ and 4+ RP now as we know that they aren't very effective against that?
Keep the flyrant. More firepower = better. The LAN is alright, as the exocrine will keep those crons sticking in cover, just like his destroyers will keep your monsters in cover as well. Just make sure to focus down 1 unit at a time with your flyrants rather than to spread your firepower over various units.
I am playing a 1000 points Escalation game versus Necrons the upcoming week, and I'm looking for some advice regarding what units to take. We will be playing Crusade and I am expecting a Decurion Detachment with a Destroyer Cult in it.
I am thinking of something in the lines of the following:
Flyrant
Flyrant
Malanthrope
DS Rippers
Mucolid
Living Artillery Node
Should I go with this or should I take out one Flyrant for something else? Or even the second Flyrant for some better firepower against 4+ and 4+ RP now as we know that they aren't very effective against that?
Destroyer Cult is some rough stuff. It can ignore flyrant damage output all day long (3+/4++, 2 wounds each). The best answer is tarpits. Hormagants & Gargoyles Backed up by some malanthropes. If I were list tailoring, I would go that way. 2 x 20 Gargoyles. 2 x 20 Hormagants. 2 x Malanthrope. Shrikes to back them up with synapse. Give them BS's if you want to kill stuff. Maybe CC Flyrant (s). Once the tarpits are in place, the necrons are stalled except for the destroyer lord.
The other way to go is a Barbed Heirodule with a Malanthrope. So long as you keep Barbie in cover, he can kill the destroyers, and then deep strike rippers / Lictors onto objectives.
Just be aware that Necrons can clear out our Tyranid "tarpits". I call them "Flayed Ones".
I also wouldn't recommend the Barbed Hierodule + malanthrope at 1K. That's about 620-pts just for those 2 units! Sure, you have a better chance at shooting down those destroyers. However, you are also more likely to lose on objectives just because he's going to have a lot more units at 1K than you will with Barbie at 1K.
locarno24 wrote: That always kind of bugged me - I wish there was a 'bio-titan scale' scything talon that granted Strength D.
On the other hand, we definitely wouldn't be getting that many attacks at WS6, I6 and destroyer attacks too.
One of the biggest problems biotitans have has always been destroyer attacks, because (unlike a knight or titan, and like a guard superheavy) they have no way of stopping a hit reaching them - they just have to tank the hit on a relatively limited stock of wounds.
If I field the overlord swarm, I think I'm going to have to pack some void shield generators - a friend of mine has some capillary towers I can purloin. Fortunately, void shields are about the best protection from destroyer fire you can get as a single hit only ever collapses a single shield, no matter how powerful the hit was.
Well, at least our bio-titans have Lash Whips, meaning they will be striking at I6 or 7 as long as they are not assaulting through cover. There's a decent chance that they will kill an Imperial Knight on the turn they charge, though a WK or the D-thirster should be able to survive their attack to strike back (unless you factor in the 12 S10 shots before the charge).
For my wishlist, I'd settle for S: D bio-cannons. CC-attacks can remain the same.
N.I.B. wrote: We're discussing the Manufactorum Formation a bit on TTH. I haven't tried it (since digital-only formations have been banned in my region) but I'm about to. I'm not sure it can make it out of beer&pretzels land, but I'm kind of ok with that.
How would your best build look like at 1850-2000? I'm thinking about something like this:
I'd throw a malanthrope (or venomthrope in a bunker) somewhere in there to protect your units from the enemy alpha-strike.
Other than that, the list looks like it would be a lot of fun to play!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Benlisted wrote: So I have a question... what's our best way to kill the new Wraithknight? Obviously tarpitting it is also an option, but I am also curious as to if we have /any/ efficient means of killing the damn thing.
I'm not sure on the stats, but I think shooting wise outside of the Barbie discussed above an Exocrine is the best bet, whilst for melee a fairly decked out Skytyrant seems the best option despite ID being fairly nerfed against it? Obviously both have to hope for no 6s on hits against them of course, but at least the Skytyrant has a Swarm of Gargoyles to protect it on the way in. Anything else I'm missing?
While the WK will be a pain-in-the-ass, I have a feeling that he won't even be our biggest worry. In any case, as the other posters have already mentioned - Barbie and Skytyrant are 2 options we have. Another would be to just ignore it and run MSU Tyranids with Lictors everywhere and flyrants who really don't care that much. Honestly, I don't think the WK will be the main worry for our bugs. There are other, more dangerous units in the new Eldar codex.
rollawaythestone wrote: I fell in love with the Skytyrant recently. He is my answer to Grav and I agree about him having a good chance of taking on the Wraithknight. Just pray for no 6's on that stomp! I even bought another box of Gargoyles to buff the unit up to 30 of the buggers.
Yeah, the SkyTyrant has proven to be better than I thought. That build is definitely a viable one, though it does have some bad matchups as well (i.e. Tau + markerlights).
Iechine wrote: So after a few games of using the Superbeast (Fully kitted out melee flyrant, including ymgarl) I have to say...I like it. It's had a role in every army I've played against he's had a role. I like that he draws my opponents attention, and that my other three flyrants can go off to do what they need to do.
With new Wraithknights out there roaming about, hopefully he can do some good.
Good to hear. Personally, I am still not sold on the melee-flyrant, but I am glad that you have been having some success with it.
rollawaythestone wrote: I fell in love with the Skytyrant recently. He is my answer to Grav and I agree about him having a good chance of taking on the Wraithknight. Just pray for no 6's on that stomp! I even bought another box of Gargoyles to buff the unit up to 30 of the buggers.
Yeah, the SkyTyrant has proven to be better than I thought. That build is definitely a viable one, though it does have some bad matchups as well (i.e. Tau + markerlights).
Tau can brutalize that formation, true, but people dipping into Tau for cheap anti-air options might have a problem facing something like this. A bunch of Iontides are going to get rolled over. I feel like many people now are packing in lots of anti-air options to take on Flyrant spam, which makes the Skytyrant an excellent meta-choice.
It's not so much the Iontides as it is the broadsides and massed suits (with markerlight support, of course) that worries me as a Tyranid player. One of the more brutal Tau builds is one that runs the Tau Firebase Cadre. That's 1 riptide and 2x3 broadsides. That build can really give us problems.
jifel wrote: A barbed Heirodule in cover stands a good chance actually. And is twice the cost... So it's not that great. Basically just fly around it and pray. A Skytyrant with Reaper honestly could do well but will get murdered by Jetbikes.
Barbie's got a pretty good chance. If the WK isn't in cover, Barbie can do 3.33 wounds a turn to it. On the other hand in 2 rounds of shooting the Wraith Knight has a 44% chance of 6'ing Barbie.
Skytyrant doesn't do as well as you think. It needs 3 rounds of combat to take the WK down. In 3 rounds, the WK is going to 6 the Flyrant.
Psychic Powers and Tarpits. Make your game plan around not killing it and losing a walking MC ever other turn to it. It is an absurdly undercosted LOW, and Tyranids don't really have an effective answer to it.
The Barbed Hierodule is a decent counter, the problem is that he's not a Points efficient one. If we have one Barby, then they may have 2 Wraithknights... As to the Skytyrant, remember that his 6s will ignore FNP, as well as causing d3 wounds to the Wraithknight. So, let's say a Flyrant with OA and Reaper charges a WK... 6 attacks hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s is 4.66 hits. On a 5+ to wound with shred, he causes 2.59 wounds. Half of those are a 6 to wound, so ID (goes to d3 wounds, average 2), and then ignore FNP, for 2.59 wounds. The other half (5s to wounds) is 1.3 wounds, which after FNP goes to 0.86 wounds, for a total of 3.45 wounds. Multiply this by 5/6 (for the attacks going from 6 to 5 for round 2, and the average wounds are 6.33 including the first round. Note that this is a full health Wraithknight with two D Cannons, and isn't even including the Gargoyles impact on the combat. Since the Flyrant is Initiative 8, the Wraithknight will only have one chance to stomp before he is (on average) killed, and so there is a 1/3 chance that he kills the Flyrant before averages kill him. Even if that happens, he will be tarpitted for a while and likely low on wounds, maybe even enough for the poisoned 6+ gargoyles to finish him eventually.
So, I must say that the Skytyrant is our most points efficient way to KILL a Wraithknight. Tarpit wise it is clearly a ton of Gargoyles, but this is the next best thing, as long as you can kill the Jetbikes!
I agree. I was running the numbers for a Tyrant without RoO. Shred and +1 S make a big difference now.
I am concerned that jetbikes can eliminate skytyrant with ease. Also, its not super-points efficient. If you are talking 30 Gargs plus a Tyrant with OA, RoO, E.Grubs, and Scy Tals we are looking at 450 points for a 33% chance to get stomped to death (1 round of stomps).
Also Skytyrant is very vulnerable to jetbikes. It can kill them if it can catch them, but 450 points of jetbikes w/ Scatter lasers will make it take 37 saves a turn. A Barbed Heirodule only has to take 7 saves from the same number of jetbikes, and he gets much better saves anyways. On the other hand, Barbie has a reasonably high chance of getting shot to death by the Wraith Knight.
Skytyrant did take a giant buff by the changes to Wave Serpents. And if Wraith Knights are killing all of the Imperial Knights like one would expect. Its an interesting meta shift. Necron Mech fades, then Eldar Mech fades. AD Mech, Eldar, and Necrons all have the tools to easily deal with Ad Lance. 7th edition was the age of Mech, but perhaps, we are moving into a new age where Skytyrant is much more viable than it has been in the past.
If they fix buffmander, it might even be possible to use it in a TAC list, though the lack of any secondary characters to each challenges makes it rough.
Let's see how resilient our bugs are to Eldar shooting. In particular, I am talking about Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers, because that will most likely be a common (and very dangerous) unit that you will see people run.
Assume - No Guide/Prescience on the jetbikes, no FNP/Catalyst on their targets.
10 Jetbikes, all with Scatter Lasers = 40 S6 shots a turn (and that is only 1 unit!).
vs 30 Gargoyles with Malanthrope cover (which is typical of a SkyTyrant formation as well):
Out in the open (5+ cover) = 40 shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wounds x 2/3 failed saves = 15 dead
Behind cover (3+ cover) = 7 dead
vs T6 6W Sv 3+ TMC:
40 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 4.4W
With malanthrope cover + ruins (2+ cover) = 2.2W
vs Swooping Flyrant
40 shots x 1/6 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 1W
With Prescience/Guide = 40 shots x (1/6 + 5/6 x 1/6) hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 2W
So as you can see, flyrants will stand the best chance against Eldar bikers - both offensively and defensively. Defensively, a swooping flyrant is the most resilient unit to Eldar shooting. Offensively, only they have the reach and range to hurt the bikers. As an added bonus, our flyrants don't need to jink against jetbike shooting. Thus, as long as other Eldar units with AP2 shooting aren't firing at our flyrants, then they will mostly be firing at full BS against Eldar bikers.
As for wraithknights? Well, like I said earlier, just ignore them and kill off the rest of the Eldar army instead. Only when you have no better targets do you focus on the WK.
One other consideration is that the Tyrant gives all his Gargoyles Move Through Cover, so they don't have to fear Dangerous Terrain Checks from Ruins. Abuse that 2+ cover from Ruins + Malanthrope!
rollawaythestone wrote: One other consideration is that the Tyrant gives all his Gargoyles Move Through Cover, so they don't have to fear Dangerous Terrain Checks from Ruins. Abuse that 2+ cover from Ruins + Malanthrope!
Not actually true sadly... He only gives them the "no -2 to charge" benefit, not the ignoring dangerous terrain.
rollawaythestone wrote: One other consideration is that the Tyrant gives all his Gargoyles Move Through Cover, so they don't have to fear Dangerous Terrain Checks from Ruins. Abuse that 2+ cover from Ruins + Malanthrope!
Not actually true sadly... He only gives them the "no -2 to charge" benefit, not the ignoring dangerous terrain.
EDIT:
On to the viability of the Skytyrant itself: It's a decent choice (I've playtested it a few times) and it's noticeably main weakness is Tau. A Firebase list with markerlights ignored cover and managed to completely kill the squad without it seeing assault. Now, to be fair, I did win this game as my opponent failed to kill any of the 4 FMCs I was packing at the time.
My biggest problem with the Skytyrant currently is that it takes up a Detachment, meaning I will only be able to run 2 additional Flyrants with the list, or lose my Bastion and Objective Secured. While this may not sound bad, I am currently going with a no-FW self ban in preparation for the ATC in July. And, to be honest, Venomthropes really really need a Bastion, plus Comms are fun. Now, based on the new Eldar, I am assuming the worst (no limits whatsoever on the Dex for competitive play) and hoping for the best (no ranged D, all LOW are still 0-1 even in a formation.)
Now best case scenario, my list changes very little if at all. A wraithknight with a D sword is a pain, but can be avoided just like a Knight if needs be while I am relatively confident I can take on the rest of the army. Yes Jetbikes are good, but Flyrants don't match up too poorly.
Now, Worst Case scenario... My army is based around a huge Skytyrant with multiple Malanthropes to support. A Barbed Hierodule helps deal with multiple Wraithknights if there's too much for the SkyTyrant, and 2 Flyrants. Remaining points go to Mawlocs, because screw Jetbikes.
with 40 points left. It could still do reasonably well as a TAC with two very high threat targets and good shooting plus Shrouded. On the other hand, it feels too "death star" to me, even if it can most likely handle a Wraithknight or two.
But, from a TAC I would say either a Barby or a Skytyrant is enough, not both. Looking at the above, it feels too light on support units. Time will tell!
jifel wrote: My biggest problem with the Skytyrant currently is that it takes up a Detachment, meaning I will only be able to run 2 additional Flyrants with the list, or lose my Bastion and Objective Secured. While this may not sound bad, I am currently going with a no-FW self ban in preparation for the ATC in July. And, to be honest, Venomthropes really really need a Bastion, plus Comms are fun. Now, based on the new Eldar, I am assuming the worst (no limits whatsoever on the Dex for competitive play) and hoping for the best (no ranged D, all LOW are still 0-1 even in a formation.)
I really, really wanted to run Tyranids at ATC but after playtesting the missions I just feel like I would be letting my team down, forcing them to let me choose favorable matchups. So, I've decided to go with my Orks because they can deathstar better (green tide), and generally, the best deathstar wins the missions.
jy2 wrote: Let's see how resilient our bugs are to Eldar shooting. In particular, I am talking about Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers, because that will most likely be a common (and very dangerous) unit that you will see people run.
Assume - No Guide/Prescience on the jetbikes, no FNP/Catalyst on their targets.
10 Jetbikes, all with Scatter Lasers = 40 S6 shots a turn (and that is only 1 unit!).
vs 30 Gargoyles with Malanthrope cover (which is typical of a SkyTyrant formation as well):
Out in the open (5+ cover) = 40 shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wounds x 2/3 failed saves = 15 dead
Behind cover (3+ cover) = 7 dead
vs T6 6W Sv 3+ TMC:
40 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 4.4W
With malanthrope cover + ruins (2+ cover) = 2.2W
vs Swooping Flyrant
40 shots x 1/6 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 1W
With Prescience/Guide = 40 shots x (1/6 + 5/6 x 1/6) hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 2W
So as you can see, flyrants will stand the best chance against Eldar bikers - both offensively and defensively. Defensively, a swooping flyrant is the most resilient unit to Eldar shooting. Offensively, only they have the reach and range to hurt the bikers. As an added bonus, our flyrants don't need to jink against jetbike shooting. Thus, as long as other Eldar units with AP2 shooting aren't firing at our flyrants, then they will mostly be firing at full BS against Eldar bikers.
As for wraithknights? Well, like I said earlier, just ignore them and kill off the rest of the Eldar army instead. Only when you have no better targets do you focus on the WK.
OK but now consider the crimson hunter formation. It's three crimson hunters, one must be an exarch so 140 + 140 + 160 = 440 pts.
It has an automatic 4+ cover save that becomes rerollable if it jinks. Those things will murder flyrants very efficiently and with an autarch have a decent shot at getting the drop on them, they also have vector dancer which allows them to stay in the fight.
A flyrant is how much? 230 not counting muccalids to bring them? So your looking at that formation vs 2 flyrants. Eldar do anti air very well now unlike the last dex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 130 Jetseer Relic stone bike
50 warlock Bike
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 shuricanon bikes + jetwarlock
50 Vyper dual canons
440 crimson hunter formation
295 Wraithknight
1520
That list is just tossed together as a demonstration using the warhost and still has 330 points left over and I think it can be nastier if you just use a CAD + crimson hunter formation.
jy2 wrote: Let's see how resilient our bugs are to Eldar shooting. In particular, I am talking about Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers, because that will most likely be a common (and very dangerous) unit that you will see people run.
Assume - No Guide/Prescience on the jetbikes, no FNP/Catalyst on their targets.
10 Jetbikes, all with Scatter Lasers = 40 S6 shots a turn (and that is only 1 unit!).
vs 30 Gargoyles with Malanthrope cover (which is typical of a SkyTyrant formation as well):
Out in the open (5+ cover) = 40 shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wounds x 2/3 failed saves = 15 dead
Behind cover (3+ cover) = 7 dead
vs T6 6W Sv 3+ TMC:
40 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 4.4W
With malanthrope cover + ruins (2+ cover) = 2.2W
vs Swooping Flyrant
40 shots x 1/6 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 1W
With Prescience/Guide = 40 shots x (1/6 + 5/6 x 1/6) hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 2W
So as you can see, flyrants will stand the best chance against Eldar bikers - both offensively and defensively. Defensively, a swooping flyrant is the most resilient unit to Eldar shooting. Offensively, only they have the reach and range to hurt the bikers. As an added bonus, our flyrants don't need to jink against jetbike shooting. Thus, as long as other Eldar units with AP2 shooting aren't firing at our flyrants, then they will mostly be firing at full BS against Eldar bikers.
As for wraithknights? Well, like I said earlier, just ignore them and kill off the rest of the Eldar army instead. Only when you have no better targets do you focus on the WK.
OK but now consider the crimson hunter formation. It's three crimson hunters, one must be an exarch so 140 + 140 + 160 = 440 pts.
It has an automatic 4+ cover save that becomes rerollable if it jinks. Those things will murder flyrants very efficiently and with an autarch have a decent shot at getting the drop on them, they also have vector dancer which allows them to stay in the fight.
A flyrant is how much? 230 not counting muccalids to bring them? So your looking at that formation vs 2 flyrants. Eldar do anti air very well now unlike the last dex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 130 Jetseer Relic stone bike
50 warlock Bike
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 shuricanon bikes + jetwarlock
50 Vyper dual canons
440 crimson hunter formation
295 Wraithknight
1520
That list is just tossed together as a demonstration using the warhost and still has 330 points left over and I think it can be nastier if you just use a CAD + crimson hunter formation.
While that is an improvement, that doesn't necessarily make them better in terms of AA or in dealing with flyrants. In the previous Eldar book, they could take the even better Nightwings with their 2+ jink cover saves (and they still can). They also had the bonus of the wave serpents. IMO, Eldar have gotten more deadly in some areas and less in others (no more long-term cover-ignoring firepower). They will still be tough to deal with for our bugs but not impossible. I think we've got the tools to give the new Eldar a good fight.
Even ignoring the Crimson Hunters, someone had mentioned that Eldar Missile Launchers have a free Skyfire option now. Wave Serpents, Vypers, Falcons, Warwalkers, Wraithlords, Guardians, Dark Reapers, Wasps, Hornets, Corsairs and Corsair Venoms can all get cheap skyfire now. Can someone confirm?
jy2 wrote: Let's see how resilient our bugs are to Eldar shooting. In particular, I am talking about Eldar jetbikes with scatter lasers, because that will most likely be a common (and very dangerous) unit that you will see people run.
Assume - No Guide/Prescience on the jetbikes, no FNP/Catalyst on their targets.
10 Jetbikes, all with Scatter Lasers = 40 S6 shots a turn (and that is only 1 unit!).
vs 30 Gargoyles with Malanthrope cover (which is typical of a SkyTyrant formation as well):
Out in the open (5+ cover) = 40 shots x 2/3 hit x 5/6 wounds x 2/3 failed saves = 15 dead
Behind cover (3+ cover) = 7 dead
vs T6 6W Sv 3+ TMC:
40 shots x 2/3 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 4.4W
With malanthrope cover + ruins (2+ cover) = 2.2W
vs Swooping Flyrant
40 shots x 1/6 hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 1W
With Prescience/Guide = 40 shots x (1/6 + 5/6 x 1/6) hit x 1/2 wound x 1/3 failed saves = 2W
So as you can see, flyrants will stand the best chance against Eldar bikers - both offensively and defensively. Defensively, a swooping flyrant is the most resilient unit to Eldar shooting. Offensively, only they have the reach and range to hurt the bikers. As an added bonus, our flyrants don't need to jink against jetbike shooting. Thus, as long as other Eldar units with AP2 shooting aren't firing at our flyrants, then they will mostly be firing at full BS against Eldar bikers.
As for wraithknights? Well, like I said earlier, just ignore them and kill off the rest of the Eldar army instead. Only when you have no better targets do you focus on the WK.
OK but now consider the crimson hunter formation. It's three crimson hunters, one must be an exarch so 140 + 140 + 160 = 440 pts.
It has an automatic 4+ cover save that becomes rerollable if it jinks. Those things will murder flyrants very efficiently and with an autarch have a decent shot at getting the drop on them, they also have vector dancer which allows them to stay in the fight.
A flyrant is how much? 230 not counting muccalids to bring them? So your looking at that formation vs 2 flyrants. Eldar do anti air very well now unlike the last dex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 130 Jetseer Relic stone bike
50 warlock Bike
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 scatter bikes + jetwarlock
185 5 shuricanon bikes + jetwarlock
50 Vyper dual canons
440 crimson hunter formation
295 Wraithknight
1520
That list is just tossed together as a demonstration using the warhost and still has 330 points left over and I think it can be nastier if you just use a CAD + crimson hunter formation.
While that is an improvement, that doesn't necessarily make them better in terms of AA or in dealing with flyrants. In the previous Eldar book, they could take the even better Nightwings with their 2+ jink cover saves (and they still can). They also had the bonus of the wave serpents. IMO, Eldar have gotten more deadly in some areas and less in others (no more long-term cover-ignoring firepower). They will still be tough to deal with for our bugs but not impossible. I think we've got the tools to give the new Eldar a good fight.
Disaggree, not saying it's hopeless but the crimson hunter went down considerably in cost (20 pts!) and it's armament pretty much was made for downing flyrants. At 140 you looking at ~2:1 on cost and I would give it to the crimson hunters any day personally since they have better weapons in regard to facing eachother in a dog fight.
rollawaythestone wrote:Even ignoring the Crimson Hunters, someone had mentioned that Eldar Missile Launchers have a free Skyfire option now. Wave Serpents, Vypers, Falcons, Warwalkers, Wraithlords, Guardians, Dark Reapers, Wasps, Hornets, Corsairs and Corsair Venoms can all get cheap skyfire now. Can someone confirm?
jy2 wrote:I doubt it's free, but I guess we will find out tomorrow.
Looking at it right now and eldar missile launchers come with all missile types stock. So while you need to purchase them initially, they all DO have skyfire.
It's 15 points for an eldar missile launcher pretty much accross the board and the WS gets a twin linked one to boot for only 15pts.
Well, at least they aren't free. 15-pts is a fair deal. Do you know if they can turn on or off the skyfire? Otherwise, they'd have to snap-shot at ground units.
Well, at least they aren't free. 15-pts is a fair deal. Do you know if they can turn on or off the skyfire? Otherwise, they'd have to snap-shot at ground units.
Yea no doubt, still makes me irritated that I pay almost double for my imperial armies though.
The Eldar missile launcher comes stock now with plasma missiles, krack missiles and flack missiles. So yes it can opt for a different round depending on target which is amazing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW the most annoying thing about the Crimson hunter formation is the fact it was a normal formation, so anyone can get 3 really awesome fliers to round out their list.
Honestly, I'm not concerned at all about Eldar Missile Launchers. Look at Marine armies. They've had the option for flakk missiles for a long time already (since 6th). How many competitive marine lists do you see running them? It just isn't as points-efficient as the standard scatter laser.
Consider this, For 30-pts, you can upgrade the guns on 2 Eldar tanks to 2 Eldar missile launchers. That's 2 shots that can potentially do 2 wounds a turn (before jink cover saves). Or, just go with the stock scatter lasers (or shuricannons?) on the 2 tanks and then you can afford to get another jetbike with scatter laser. Now that's potentially 12 S6 shots that can potentially do up to 12W of damage. The stock scatter is just the all-around better TAC weapon. If you want to go anti-air, as an Eldar player, I would go for specialized units such as the crimson hunter formation or maybe AA-vipers. Otherwise, I'd stick with the scatter laser for the majority of my firepower. That is what I feel you will see in most Eldar lists going forwards.
Yea I am not suggesting that the eldar missile launcher is great, but lets be honest, it's miles ahead of the hoops imperial armies jump through, not to mention it's WHO can carry them. On marines you can buy them on devastators, tac squads or scout squads only. All sub par choices, while eldar can put them on versatile cheap units like WS, vypers and war walkers. Imagine if a rhino could take a missile launcher for 15 pts that could fire all varieties of missile, or a typhoon? you'd sing another tune for sure.
The best AA comes from the crimson hunter formation however, its dirt cheap for what you get IMO.
I was just working on my Green tide, and I realized the 36 Scatter Laser Jetbikes kill it in 2 rounds of shooting.
They also kill 2 Flyrants (8 unsaved wounds) on the ground in 2+ cover, or 1 flyrant (4 unsaved wounds) in the air. All that, and they only cost 972 points.
To contrast that to current day, 5 Wave Serpents with a Dire Avenger tax cost 975. VS Flyrants in 2+ Cover they do 7 unsaved wounds, and against flyrants in the air they do 3.3 unsaved wounds. So Jetbikes are essentially killier than Wave Serpents ever were. They are slightly easier to kill at least. Each Flyrant can kill 3 a turn. Unfortunately, you can get lots more than 36 jetbikes in a list.
Flyrants are a great counter to new eldar. What you should be worried about however is the 3 flyer formation (forget the name) that allows you to take 3 cromson hunters which always have a 4plus jink and it becomes rerollable when they jink.
Coming up this weekend, I will publish a mini-tactica on Tyranids vs the New Eldar .
Tyran wrote: The problem is that only Flyrants are really viable against Eldar as the Eldar will vaporize anything that is on the ground.
Not necessarily. With the loss of long-term cover-ignoring firepower (as well as wave serpents becoming less popular), 2+ cover will be an issue for the new Eldar to deal with. TMC's within malanthrope range, lictors going-to-ground in ruins and similar tactics as these will actually require considerable resources for the new Eldar to deal with. Granted, they can potentially have the firepower to deal with these units, but I don't think that they will necessarily "vaporize" anything that is on the ground.
But I do agree that flyrants will probably be our best answer against them. Not just for their durability, but the fact that they are probably the only ones who can catch those JSJ (jump-shoot-jump) bikers.
Good thing to know is this. Eldar missile launchers DO have skyfire. HOWEVER, if you fire it using the skyfire profile, then it is only S7 AP4. That's not so bad for our flyers....unless you're talking about the hive crones and harpies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the shrouded lord wrote: So it looks like my wraith-dar will be my new competetive list.
You know, onece I have more then five models of it.
I don't think spamming them will make an Eldar army competitive. However, I do think that a competitive Eldar army should include at least 1 or maybe 2 units of wraithguards.
jy2 wrote: Good thing to know is this. Eldar missile launchers DO have skyfire. HOWEVER, if you fire it using the skyfire profile, then it is only S7 AP4. That's not so bad for our flyers....unless you're talking about the hive crones and harpies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the shrouded lord wrote: So it looks like my wraith-dar will be my new competetive list.
You know, onece I have more then five models of it.
I don't think spamming them will make an Eldar army competitive. However, I do think that a competitive Eldar army should include at least 1 or maybe 2 units of wraithguards.
I'm personally not sold on the new Wraithguard. They're 160 for the slowest unit in the book. Great weapons yes, but will require either a Serpent or an allied Archon. At this points we're going to cost more than a Landraider for a unit that drops down and shoots 5 D shots. Yes, these are absolutely brutal. But, there's a 45% no 6s are rolled, and that point anything with a cover or armor save is likely alive. And Khaine help you if your opponent doesn't have a single landborn target that is highly expensive, as you can count on that Wraithguard squad being tied up for the game or dead after that drop. Now with ignores cover, I will say that the D Scythes are better, and cost 50 points more to outfit a unit with them. At this point we're hitting 300+ points for a minimum unit that can actually get in range reliably. Again, you drop, hopefully (and probably) kill one unit, and then again get targeted. And let's be honest, they're an expensive distraction, but the Scythes no longer have that "6" chance of ignoring Invulnerables. If a Knight in an AdLance puts his shield on the same side as the Wraithguard, then those 5 Flamers average... 1.66 HPs. Whoopee! Those guys are so dead...
Random math and laughter aside, I think that a Wraithknight can effectively do anything the Guard can, with more durability and other functions. So while Eldar are great, I don't think that Wraithguard are the unit to truly show that off. They are a very, very expensive Nuke to drop on someone that will quite possibly just be shot right back off the board. Vauls and WK are my (if I played Eldar) D weaponry of choice. I am much more scared of those than anything Wraithguard can do!
jy2 wrote: Good thing to know is this. Eldar missile launchers DO have skyfire. HOWEVER, if you fire it using the skyfire profile, then it is only S7 AP4. That's not so bad for our flyers....unless you're talking about the hive crones and harpies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the shrouded lord wrote: So it looks like my wraith-dar will be my new competetive list.
You know, onece I have more then five models of it.
I don't think spamming them will make an Eldar army competitive. However, I do think that a competitive Eldar army should include at least 1 or maybe 2 units of wraithguards.
Oh, the wraith element is purely thematic. The entire reason I started the army was because I love the way wraith units look, and I don't really plan on beng that far on the competetive scene anyway. I was just making an observation that it seems eldar havegone even higher up the power ladder.
jy2 wrote: Good thing to know is this. Eldar missile launchers DO have skyfire. HOWEVER, if you fire it using the skyfire profile, then it is only S7 AP4. That's not so bad for our flyers....unless you're talking about the hive crones and harpies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the shrouded lord wrote: So it looks like my wraith-dar will be my new competetive list.
You know, onece I have more then five models of it.
I don't think spamming them will make an Eldar army competitive. However, I do think that a competitive Eldar army should include at least 1 or maybe 2 units of wraithguards.
I'm personally not sold on the new Wraithguard. They're 160 for the slowest unit in the book. Great weapons yes, but will require either a Serpent or an allied Archon. At this points we're going to cost more than a Landraider for a unit that drops down and shoots 5 D shots. Yes, these are absolutely brutal. But, there's a 45% no 6s are rolled, and that point anything with a cover or armor save is likely alive. And Khaine help you if your opponent doesn't have a single landborn target that is highly expensive, as you can count on that Wraithguard squad being tied up for the game or dead after that drop. Now with ignores cover, I will say that the D Scythes are better, and cost 50 points more to outfit a unit with them. At this point we're hitting 300+ points for a minimum unit that can actually get in range reliably. Again, you drop, hopefully (and probably) kill one unit, and then again get targeted. And let's be honest, they're an expensive distraction, but the Scythes no longer have that "6" chance of ignoring Invulnerables. If a Knight in an AdLance puts his shield on the same side as the Wraithguard, then those 5 Flamers average... 1.66 HPs. Whoopee! Those guys are so dead...
Random math and laughter aside, I think that a Wraithknight can effectively do anything the Guard can, with more durability and other functions. So while Eldar are great, I don't think that Wraithguard are the unit to truly show that off. They are a very, very expensive Nuke to drop on someone that will quite possibly just be shot right back off the board. Vauls and WK are my (if I played Eldar) D weaponry of choice. I am much more scared of those than anything Wraithguard can do!
The thing is, they don't cost any more than they used to, but now they've got an even better weapon than before, and one that is an actual viable weapon to either knights and deathstars. Basically, they are a good insurance policy against heavy armor and deathstar armies, which is a niche that every TAC army can always use. That is why I don't recommend spamming them, but taking a unit or 2 is IMO a good choice for most Eldar armies. BTW, woe to the Imperial Knight who charges a unit of 5 D-scythes....
The WK is the closest thing to a must-take (along with the windrider jetbikes) in the Eldar codex. 1 unit of WG can be used to complement him as a secondary high-priority threat. The only thing about the WK is that he dies to grav weaponry like there is no manana. When Eldar goes up against White Scars or grav centurions, the WK will more often or not be a liability. However, D-scythe WG's can be useful against centurions (and other deathstars).
One of the selling points of Wraithguard is that they Ignore Cover too so it's easy wounds but more importantly, they can be attached to a Haemonculus with a WWP. Speed ain't an issue when you can put yourself anywhere on the table.
I think LictorShame would do extremely well against new Eldar. All those S6 and Destroyer shots...wasted on Spore Mines and Mawlocs don't really care about JSJ
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thanks for doing the tactica jy2. Will it include a batrep too or just mathhammered theory?
jy2 wrote: Good thing to know is this. Eldar missile launchers DO have skyfire. HOWEVER, if you fire it using the skyfire profile, then it is only S7 AP4. That's not so bad for our flyers....unless you're talking about the hive crones and harpies.
Even then, the missiles don't have ignores cover and the only platforms that can gain cover ignoring abilities (via psykers or innate) are more or less limited to 1-shot per turn (Reapers and Guardians - Guardians can get up to 3, but that requires a 30-strong blob which is unwieldy and otherwise inefficient). As long as either Crone or Harpy can keep a toe in cover or stay within shrouding range they won't really have to worry about the missiles that much (and arguably, if they are shooting at a Crone or Harpy they aren't shooting more valuable Tyrants).
So the new Eldar codex just came out and there is already a lot of fear among the gaming community with regards to their new release. Massed S6 shooting from fast, ObSec jetbike troops, cheap skyfire throughout the army, Lord of War wraithknights that you can now spam and the proliferation of Destroyer weaponry within the codex makes it sound even more frightening than the previous iteration of the codex, which many already considered to be the best army in the game. So, are they really that bad? Are Tyranids destined to be slaughtered by the mighty, mighty space elves? My initial thoughts....no. Not by a long shot. The new Eldar is a very strong army. However, they are not ridiculously over-powering, at least not to our bugs. We do have the tools to deal with them.
This tactica will be presented from the Tyranid perspective. How have Eldar changes affected Tyranids as an opponent and how can we combat them? I am going to break this tactica into 2 parts.
Part I - The Good, the Mild, the Bad and the Ugly
The first part will take a more in-depth look at the Eldar units and rules and how they will affect our Tyranids. I will be focusing more on the changes in the new codex and consequently, the effect that they will have on us.
This part, I will go into detail with regards to the strengths and the weaknesses of Eldar in relation to Tyranids. I will also offer insight as to what you will typically see in a competitive, Take-All-Comer's Eldar army. Finally, I will explore how Tyranids can combat the new Eldar.
PART I - THE GOOD, THE MILD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY
The Good
This part will focus on the changes to the new Eldar codex that is good for our Tyranids.
Wave Serpents: The new wave serpents got hit with the nerf-bat as expected. This is great for Tyranids. They lost the ability to twin-link their shots with scatter lasers. The serpent shield is now a 1-use-per-game weapon and Eldar Holo-fields are now just 5++ Invuln's (as long as the serpent isn't immobilized). Now granted, serpent shields are still potentially lethal due to being 2D6 cover-ignoring shots. However, with them being a 1-time use weapon, overall, wave serpents just aren't as dangerous as they used to be. Just make sure to keep your venomthrope/malanthrope out of Line-of-Sight (LOS) or in a bastion/bunker and we should be able to weather their storm.
You will see the focus of the wave serpent shift from an actual, offensive tool to more of an actual, delivery system. That's right. Most of the wave serpents that you will see will be delivery systems for wraithguards and fire dragons or as protection for the Eldar Warlord. Otherwise, the number of wave serpents you will see in Eldar armies will go down dramatically.
No more Daemon Summoning! That's right. Eldar no longer have access to Malefic powers. Good-bye and good-riddance.
No more Mantle of the Laughing God. That piece of artefact was probably the most annoying artefact on the Eldar army for Tyranids to deal with - 2+ re-rollable cover on a unit that you just couldn't catch. Unless you have cover-ignoring firepower, which Tyranids don't have, good luck trying to get Warlord from the Eldar opponent or trying to stop him from casting his psychic powers.
Holo-fields: It was just plain annoying to try to shoot down AV12 skimmers with 3+ cover (and with mainly only S6 guns). Well, now Holo-fields are only 5++ Invuln's as long as the skimmer isn't immobilized (no benefit if immobilized). That does make them slightly more resilient to Tyranid assault, but mainly, most competitive Tyranid armies tend to shoot more than they assault. In any case, the change in Holo-fields is a good thing for most opponents.
Scatter Lasers: Scatter lasers used to twin-link the other guns for an Eldar tank or monstrous creature. Thankfully, now it doesn't anymore.
Guardian Hosts: This is the standard formation for Eldar Craftworlds, just as the Reclamation Legion is the standard formation for the Necron Decurion. I am liking the shift towards these types of formations as the norm for all the newer codices coming out. In most cases, these formations require you to take a minimum number of units which a lot of competitive players consider to be "tax" units in order to take the units that they really want. In a sense, these formations help to reduce pure-spam armies to a degree as well as to reduce the number of fully-optimized armies by forcing players to take units that they normally wouldn't take. Now there are ways around this - like running a Combined Arms Detachment (CAD) instead - and most of the Eldar units are good enough to have a use in the army. But still, these formations help to deter an Eldar army from just spamming the very best units in the army. Finally, while these formations do provide certain benefits for the units in the formations, they also take away a very important trait of typical CAD Eldar, and that is there are no Objective Secured units in any of these formations.
The Mild
Autarch: He hasn't changed much since last edition. However, you will still see him as the commander in Eldar lists just because he is one of the cheapest HQ's in the codex and he allows the the Eldar player to manipulate his Reserves.
Farseer: He's actually gotten slightly better. Now, with a Farseer, you can re-roll 1 Psychic Test or Deny the Witch test in each Psychic phase. He is still a staple of most Eldar lists and, IMO, probably the most popular Eldar HQ choice. You will see him a lot.
Warlock Conclave: The Warlock Conclave actually got slightly nerfed in this edition. Now, instead of getting 1 psychic power per Warlock, you can only get up to 3 psychic powers (Mastery Level 3) depending on the number of warlocks you take (1-3 warlocks = Level 1, 4-6 warlocks = Level 2, 7+ warlocks = Level 3). However, now you can take a Warlock as a sergeant for many Eldar units and their Primaris power is pretty good. Stick a Warlock on a bike (Warlock Skyrunner) with a unit of Windrider jetbikes and now you are looking at a unit with potentially Shrouded 2+ jink cover! In addition, you will still see Warlocks because the Seer Council - which consists of 2 Farseers and a Warlock Conclave - is still a good Eldar unit.
Storm Guardians: This unit got a mild buff. Before, you have to take 10 guys in the unit. Now, you only have to take 8 guys and you can still buy 2 special weapons for them. Overall, you save 18-pts on the unit. You still won't see them much, but with the decrease in price, you might see more Eldar players running them in the Guardian Stormhost formation.
Rangers: They are the same as before, but with 1 improvement. Instead of Stealth, they now have Shroud.
Dire Avengers: Dire Avengers have actually gotten better in this edition. Currently, the Exarch has 2W instead of 1 as well as a 4++ Invuln save (a free 10-pt upgrade!). Better yet, now the entire unit can Overwatch at BS2 or gain the Counter-attack + Stubborn USR's. So with all these improvements, why did I rank this unit as just a Mild unit? Because the nerf to Wave Serpents means that you just won't see these guys as often anymore. Whereas in the previous edition, they were the de facto troop standard, the changes to wave serpents in this edition means that they just won't be used that often anymore unless one is running the Aspect Host or Dire Avenger Shrine formations.
Howling Banshees: The Howling Banshees have gotten much better in this edition. The unit has dropped down in price by 10-pts, the Exarch has 2W instead of 1W and comes with War Shout, which is actually a very good power, for free. Lastly, the unit received the equivalent of assault grenades with their Acrobatic rule. So despite all of these improvements, why won't we still see them very much? Because of the nerf to wave serpents and more importantly, because of the lack of assault vehicles in the army. But with the improvements, you should see some Eldar players dust off the models from storage and use them on the tabletop.
Striking Scorpions: Scorpions are another sparsely-used Eldar unit which should see more playing time in this edition. Like the banshees, they've gotten better in this edition, with a 2W Exarch who gets bonus attacks depending on the Initiative of his opponent. Now that's a boon, especially when you consider that he can potentially strike with 4+ I6 S6 AP2 attacks in close combat! On top of that, the entire unit gets Shrouded should they Infiltrate.
Wraithblades: Wraithblades have gotten better in this edition as well. The entire unit is 10-pts cheaper and now they come with Rage for free! They are no where near as popular as their cousins, the Wraithguards, but I think they are a viable assault choice in an Eldar army. As a matter of fact, I can see some Eldar players running them as an assault deathstar or mini-star.
Shining Spears: Yet another improved but not very popular unit. With the improvements to the unit, perhaps we will see them more often on the tabletop. As with all Aspect warriors, the Exarch of the Shining Spears has gotten better. Now he has 2W instead of 1W and he gets the equivalent of Monster Hunter AND Tank Hunter as well! As for the unit, now they get an automatic 4+ cover as long as they have moved in the previous Movement phase.
Falcons: All of the Eldar Heavy Support tanks have gotten better. Now, all of them can be taken in squadrons. In addition, when you take a squadron of 3 falcons, the entire unit can Deepstrike without scatter via Cloudstrike.
Fire Prisms: All of the Eldar Heavy Support tanks have gotten better. Now, all of them can be taken in squadrons. In addition, when you take a squadron of 2+ fire prisms, now you can combine their shots via Linked Fire.
Avatar of Khaine: The list of units that have gotten better in the Eldar codex goes on and on, and the Avatar of Khaine is no exception. You still won't see him very often, except in mostly a Footdar list, but he's gotten better as well. Before, his Khaine Awakened special rule gives all friendly Eldar units within 12" the Fearless USR. Now, in addition to Fearless, the Khaine Awakened special rule gives friendly Eldar units Furious Charge and the Rage USR as well! Also, his close combat ability has improved. Now, he is an actual threat to walkers with the Wailing Doom. Before, it was just a S6 AP1 weapon. Now, it is a S8 AP1 Armourbane weapon in close combat. I can see this guy as the centerpiece in a Guardian Battlehost or Guardian Stormhost formation.
The Bad
This part will focus on the changes to the new Eldar codex that is bad for our Tyranids (and others).
Eldar Missile Launchers: Now, all Eldar Missile Launchers (EML) come with built-in Skyfire mode. (In the previous edition, you had to pay 10-pts extra for Skyfire mode and not all EML's had that option.) While it isn't free (it's 15-pts), it's still 10-pts cheaper than before and a very versatile weapon with 3 firing modes - a S8 AP3 shot, a S7 AP4 Skyfire shot or a S4 AP4 blast for crowd control. More importantly, it can be taken by almost every single Eldar unit that can take a heavy weapon. You just may see the EML replace the Scatter Laser as the Eldar Take-All-Comer's weapon of choice.
Exarchs: Exarchs in general have just become must-buys on units that can take them. There is almost no reason not to. They are much, much better now than before. Each exarch has been upgraded to 2W as opposed to just 1W previously. Also, each exarch now gets a free special power that used to cost points before and every power on every different unit is useful.
Eldrad: Eldrad, who is already very good, has gotten even better. Now, he is 15-pts cheaper than before! Wow! Now he did lose his ability to re-deploy D3+1 units. However, his Warlord trait allows him to give D3 units in the Eldar army the Scout USR. Overall, you will still him him in Footdar lists and potentially as part of the Seer Council as well.
Karandras: Not only did Karandras become better in this edition, but he's also dropped in price by 30-pts! When he comes in from Reserves, he can come in from any table edge (and he passes this ability onto the unit of Striking Scorpions that he is attached with). He also does a wound to a model engaged with him on a 2+ with no armor saves allowed (4+ if a Gargantuan Creature) and also provides Shrouded to a unit that infiltrates with him. I can see him in a Footdar list or in a deathstar list to provide more punch to the unit/army.
Baharroth: This guy is going to be very popular in any Eldar deathstar army. Seer Council, wraithstar, whatever....you'll see him as a part of any true deathstar Eldar build. Heck, you may even see him in a Harlequinstar build. So why will he be so popular? 2 main reasons, really. #1) He has Hit-&-Run. #2) He is now 25-pts cheaper than before. Other than that, he is a good unit to tank incoming shots due to his 2+ save and him being Eternal Warrior. Also, he can leave the unit and going into Ongoing Reserves on Turn 4 (via the Skyleap special rule), only to come back in on Turn 5 without scatter onto an objective (via the Herald of Victory special rule). This guy is the new "Baron Sathonyx" of the Eldar deathstar builds.
Fire Dragons: They were good before and were on many Eldar lists. They are even better now. Now, fire dragons get +1 on the Vehicle Damage table and the Fire Dragon Exarch can re-roll 1 To Hit, To Wound or Armor Penetration roll per turn. If not for Destroyer Weapons being so readily available in the army, fire dragons would be the #1 choice for AT against ground armor in the army.
Swooping Hawks: This is another great unit that has become even better. Swooping Hawks can now move 18", which is already huge enough by itself. But on top of that, they now have the Intercept special rule. That has just made them the deadliest anti-flyer weapon in the game. What it is is when a unit of Swooping Hawks move over a flyer or a flying monstrous creature, that unit takes 1 S4 AP4 Haywire hit per model! Say bye-bye to your flyer. It doesn't even get a cover save! At least it isn't as bad against our FMC's, but woe to the stormravens, night scythes and all the Forgeworld flyers out there. The exarch allows the unit to come in from Deepstrike without scatter. Overall, it is an extremely good unit and you will be seeing them in a lot of tournament Eldar armies.
Warp Spiders: The amount of good units getting even better in the new Eldar codex just ceases to amaze me. This is truly a codex of the "rich" getting "richer" and the Warp Spiders are no exception. Just be aware that when you target them, they can make a special 2D6" jump move in the enemy Shooting phase with their Flickerjump special rule. And if their move should take them out of LOS or range, then you've just wasted your shooting because you cannot target another unit. Wow!!! On top of that, the Warp Spider Exarch allows the unit to automatically pass all Pinning, Fear, Regroup and Morale tests! Holy what-the-frag?!?
Crimson Hunter: A 20-pt drop in price makes the Crimson Hunter easily the Eldar's best flyer and most reliable, ranged AA platform. As an added bonus, the Crimson Hunter Exarch makes Precision Shots on a 5+ instead of the 6 that was the previous edition. But wait, they get even better when you take them in their special formation (more details on that later in the tactica).
Vyper Squadron: A decrease of 10-pt per model makes the Vyper a really affordable and cost-efficient unit, especially for those who want to run MSU Eldar. I think that this is a really under-rated unit. For 100-pts, you can get a very fast, 4HP unit that (2 Vypers) that fires 12 S6 shots (which become AP2 on any To Wound rolls of 6). They are the 2nd most efficient shooting tank in the army (6 shots for 50-pts, or 8.33 cost/shot ratio). The most efficient would be the next entry on this list.
Scatter Walkers: Basically, this unit is a unit of War Walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers. At a 10-pt discount per model from previous, a unit of 3 scatter walkers is 30-pts cheaper than before. Now what does that give you? It gives you the #1 most efficient shooting tank in the army (8 shots for 60-pts, or 7.5 cost/shot). Yes, if you see Scatter Walkers in an Eldar list, take them out and do it quickly. You really do not want to go through 5 turns of Scatter Walker shooting.
Hemlock Wraithfighter: The Hemlock Wraithfighter isn't the best flyer in the army. However, it is potentially the most dangerous. Now, its armament include 2 D-weapon blasts. And while its Heavy D-scythes might not be as dangerous as the wraithcannon, it is very deadly, especially against multi-wound units. Moreover, the Wraithfighter is now a full-blown Level 2 psyker as opposed to just a Level 1 psyker with only the Terrify psychic power in its previous incarnation. Now, prepare to see the Wraithfighter come stock with Conceal for 2+ jink cover and Psychic Scream. Or if the Eldar player is feeling lucky, he might instead go for Invisibility or Shrouding.
Dark Reapers: Sigh. This is getting depressing. Never in the history of 40K writing has so many units in just 1 codex gotten better. Dark Reapers are another very good unit that has gotten better. They are now 5-pts cheaper per model, or 15-pts cheaper for the unit. The unit now becomes twin-linked against zooming flyers, swooping FMC's or any unit that turbo-boosted or moved flat-out (and those units cannot take Jink saves against Dark Reapers!). On top of it all, the Exarch gets Fast Shot for free. This is definitely a unit worthy of consideration for any Eldar army.
Night Spinners: All of the Eldar Heavy Support tanks have gotten better. Now, all of them can be taken in squadrons. In addition, when you take a squadron of 2+ Night Spinners, you can now combine their shots via the Monofilament Shroud. Basically you get +1 Shot and +1S for each additional Night Spinner that contributes to the Monofilament Shroud. And if that wasn't enough to rank it among the "Bad" Eldar units, how about a decrease of 15-pts per model? An absolutely great anti-horde unit.
Guardian Battlehost Formation: This formation includes 1 Farseer, 3 units of Guardian Defenders, 1 unit of Vypers, 1 unit of War Walkers, 1 Vaul's Wrath Support Battery and 0-1 Warlock Conclave. So what makes it so good? I mean, the troops within have to give up Objective Secured. But in return, they get free Heavy Weapons platforms. That is potentially a 180-pts cost savings (if you run 3x20 guardians)! Moreover, all of the units in the formation are useful and most of the units in the formation gets Preferred Enemy if they fire at a unit within 12" of a Guardian Defenders unit. Overall, this is a great foundation for a Footdar list.
Guardian Stormhost Formation: This formation includes 1 Farseer, 3 units of Storm Guardians, 1 unit of Vypers, 1 unit of War Walkers, 1 Vaul's Wrath Support Battery and 0-1 Warlock Conclave. So what makes it so good? I mean, the troops within have to give up Objective Secured. But in return, they get 2 free special weapons and 2 free power weapons. That is potentially a 150-pts cost savings and you only have to run 3x8 guardians! Moreover, all of the units in the formation are useful and most of the units in the formation gets Preferred Enemy if they fire at a unit within 12" of a Storm Guardian unit. Overall, this is a great foundation for a Footdar list.
Seer Council Formation: This formation includes 2 Farseer and 1 Warlock Conclave. The farseers have to join the warlocks and cannot leave the unit. However, models from this formation cast psychic powers on a 3+ instead of the normal 4+. Expect the Seer Council to still be the premier deathstar in the new Eldar army.
Dire Avenger Shrine: I must say, I really like this formation. The Dire Avenger Shrine formation consists of 3 units of Dire Avengers. Dire Avengers have gotten better in this edition, but it is the Dire Avengers Shrine which makes them truly great. Now all models in this formation gets +1 BS. Moreover, once per game, all dire avengers in the formation get +1 shot to their shooting attack. Finally, all models in this formation can re-roll any failed Morale, Pinning and Fear tests. This is a great formation for any Footdar list, or you can even run them in Wave Serpents for a mechanized Eldar list.
The Ugly
These are the changes to the Eldar codex which makes them very, very good. As an opponent, it is these changes that make the new Eldar so very, very tough to play against. You better bring your best, because if you don't, the game is very likely to get very ugly.
Distortion Weapons: Destroyer weapons really do not belong in regular games of 40K. Now I can understand having Destroyer weaponry on a single Lord of War, but having Destroyer weaponry readily available for the masses? Yeesh! And it isn't just 1 unit that can take them. A wide range of units can take them. Besides the Wraithknight, you have Wraithguards, the Hemlock Wraithfighter and Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries which can carry them. Moreover, they come in different sizes and shapes, from a single shot to a blast to a template weapon. Worse yet, they are all on different FOC slots and do not compete against each other in the Eldar army. Thus, run a normal Eldar CAD and you can actually spam those Destroyer units, taking up to 3 each from the Elite, Fast Attack and Heavy slots as well as 1 from the Lord of War slot.
Windriders: This unit will no doubt be the most popular unit in the entire Eldar codex as well as 1 of only 2 must-take units in the army (with the other being the Wraithknight). Now why are they so good? Unlike in the previous edition, where you need to take 3 bikes before you can take 1 heavy weapon, currently, you can take 1 heavy weapon for each bike in the unit. Wow!!! That means a unit of 10 bikes can take 10 scatter lasers. That's 40 S6 shots in 1 turn, and that is from just 1 unit!!! You can legally take 6 of these units in a normal CAD for a total of 240 S6 shots per turn!
Furthermore, if you take the Windrider jetbikes in a normal CAD, they become Objective Secured units. They are hard for many opponents to deal with due to their super-long 48" threat range (12" move and 36" shooting range) and their ability to move again (2D6") in the Assault phase. They can potentially shoot you and then move out of LOS so that you cannot shoot them back! And the Windrider jetbikes are so fast that assault armies will have a hard time just trying to catch them. Move towards them and they can just turbo-boost 36" away from you (plus their regular 12" movement for a total of 48"). Finally, they can add a Warlock sergeant to the unit. This can potentially give the unit 2+ Shrouded Jink cover if the Warlock takes the Runes of Battle psychic powers, thus making a incredibly resilient unit just that much harder to kill. Windrider-spam will truly be a nightmare for most armies to deal with.
Wraithguards: This unit is potentially the hardest hitting unit in the codex, with 5+ Strength D shots per turn. It is a super dangerous unit that can easily take out tanks, walkers, monstrous creatures, IC's and elite units as well. And if that wasn't bad enough, you can give them D-scythe template D weapons to murder almost any unit in the 40K world. Then laugh as enemy assault units try to assault it, only to eat 5+ D3 Destroyer Wall of Death Overwatch hits. Without a doubt, this is the most dangerous unit in the codex to most armies.
Vaul's Wrath Support Battery: Now the normal Vaul's Wrath Support Battery (VWSB) isn't so bad, that is, as long as you do not upgrade it with D-cannons. Upgrade it with D-cannons and it now becomes the cheapest weapons platform in the game to carry a Destroyer weapon. But wait, it gets worse. It doesn't just fire single shots. Rather, it fires barrage blasts. All for a measly 55-pts per. The only saving grace is its rather limited shooting range of 24". But if you want a cheap D-platform, then this unit is it.
Wraithknight: One of the best MC's in the entire game of 40K has just gotten better. Say what? That's right. You heard me. The really, really good Wraithknight of yesteryear's codex has become even better in today's codex. How so? Simply by making him a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature and by giving him Destroyer weaponry. As a GMC, this guy is seriously under-costed, especially when compared to some of the other GMC's in the game. You can either kit him out as shooty with ranged D or as assault with close-combat D. Moreover, you can now equip him with 2 extra weapons, thus allowing him to shoot all 4 guns and at 4 different targets. He can then charge any of those 4 targets.
Being a GMC also makes the Wraithknight so much tougher to kill. He is now only wounded by Poisoned weapons on 6's, comes with FNP and cannot be insta-killed (weapons that cause Instant Death do D3 Wounds to a GMC instead). Thinking about tying him up with a tarpit unit? Well, now you have to contend with Stomp attacks as well. His only real weakness is to buffed-up grav-weaponry (i.e. the Centurionstar) but other than that, he is rock solid and a nightmare for most armies to deal with.
Aspect Host Formation: I must say, I really like this formation. The Aspect Host formation consists of 3 units among any of the following: Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears and Dark Reapers. ALL of those units have gotten better in this edition, and as if that wasn't incentive enough to run them, the Aspect Host surely puts them over the top. Now all units in the formation gain either +1 WS of +1 BS. What!?! That's right. Imagine taking BS5 Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and Warp Spiders. And the cherry on top? All these units get to re-roll failed Morale, Pinning and Fear tests. Yeesh! A great addition to any Footdar lists and really, any Eldar army.
Crimson Death Formation: This is yet another formation which takes a very good unit, the Crimson Hunter, and makes them even better. The formation consists of 3 Crimson Hunters, of which 1 must be upgraded to be an Exarch. It then gives these units Preferred Enemy against flyers and FMC's. It also gives the unit 4+ cover that is always "on". But that's not all...if a Crimson Hunter in the formation jinks, its 4+ cover is re-rollable. Overall, this formation is simply amazing and arguably the best anti-air tool in the new Eldar army.
Had another practice game with my list for Killadelphia today, I've gotta say having that Superbeast melee Tyrant is a lot of fun and is proving to be quite effective. I think he works so well on account of there being so many other primary targets for turns 1 and 2, whether its the Malanthrope or the three flyrants with one being Warlord, or the baby making Tervigons. I know I cant sway anyone one way or the other, but the Ymgarl factor has been so helpful tactically that it's bloated 40pt cost I actually dont mind as much paying.
Shall be going to a 1500 pt tournament and as far as I know, it's anything bar unbound allowed. I was thinking of taking two alongside three Flyrants (who did serious damage at the 1250 one I went to), and maybe some Gargoyles for scoring/tarpitting/nuisance. Exocrine too if I can fit in points, I just love AP2 shooting from him these days (claimed Riptides, Tac squad that would have stolen my objective, Maulerfiend. Too good for me not to include)
Iechine wrote: Had another practice game with my list for Killadelphia today, I've gotta say having that Superbeast melee Tyrant is a lot of fun and is proving to be quite effective. I think he works so well on account of there being so many other primary targets for turns 1 and 2, whether its the Malanthrope or the three flyrants with one being Warlord, or the baby making Tervigons. I know I cant sway anyone one way or the other, but the Ymgarl factor has been so helpful tactically that it's bloated 40pt cost I actually dont mind as much paying.
Shall be going to a 1500 pt tournament and as far as I know, it's anything bar unbound allowed. I was thinking of taking two alongside three Flyrants (who did serious damage at the 1250 one I went to), and maybe some Gargoyles for scoring/tarpitting/nuisance. Exocrine too if I can fit in points, I just love AP2 shooting from him these days (claimed Riptides, Tac squad that would have stolen my objective, Maulerfiend. Too good for me not to include)
At 1500, I'd go with no more than 1 tervigon, especially considering you are planning to take 3 flyrants and the exocrine as well.
Also, it's important to know what types of missions you will be playing. If the tournament is going full Maelstrom, then I'd probably ditch the tervigon altogether for slightly more mobile, scoring units. However, if the missions incorporate any of the Eternal War missions, then keep the tervigon.
They'll be EW :/ so I look forward to playing gunline again haha.
I was thinking of dropping the Exocrine for another Tervigon actually, just in case one shut up shop. Get some Gargoyles too for a mobile cover screen and a fast tarpit unit. I know I'm gonna be up against a Wraithknight, I just know it man. I see the Eldar player gleefully licking his lips with Craftworlds
I think LictorShame would do extremely well against new Eldar. All those S6 and Destroyer shots...wasted on Spore Mines and Mawlocs don't really care about JSJ
Maybe. Jetbikes might fear Mucolids cause of the Ignores Cover Ap3, but Spore Mines are less scary. It's possible with clever placement you force your opponent to have to shoot the Mines, but in general they won't have to. They can just move 12" over or away from them - with only a 3 inch move, d6/2 run, and a 2d6/2 charge move, they likely won't catch them on the charge even if they deep struck 1" away. Their strength of blocking movement lanes is greatly diminished by an entire army that jumps around the table. Smart play with them could block off certain zones that the Eldar player might be tempted to flee into, or force him to move out of cover, or something. But it will definitely be hard to do. No one will be wasting Str D on them though - maybe Wraithguard would fear a Mucolid, but Wraithknights don't care.
@wave serpents: i don't know we're really going to be seeing them used defensively. i think you're just going to see them alpha strike the opponent's face off T1 with all his serpents. it's still a fast skimmer, so it's going to move forward 6" and unload, adding its weight of fire to the bikes and WK and rest of the usual suspects. there's not much need to play defensively when you shoot 1/3 to half of the opponent's army off the board T1.
gigasnail wrote: @wave serpents: i don't know we're really going to be seeing them used defensively. i think you're just going to see them alpha strike the opponent's face off T1 with all his serpents. it's still a fast skimmer, so it's going to move forward 6" and unload, adding its weight of fire to the bikes and WK and rest of the usual suspects. there's not much need to play defensively when you shoot 1/3 to half of the opponent's army off the board T1.
You can still play the serpent aggressively for a strong alpha-strike. However, after the serpent blows its "load", it is more of a defensive vehicle due to its serpent shield working more defensively than offensively. This is how I see most people play them. Go for a strong alpha-strike with the serpents and the rest of the army. Then deliver their payload - from fire dragons to wraithguards to howling banshees or whatever - to wherever they need to go. After that, move back, shoot and go for objectives on T5.
i concur; but is alpha striking then playing standoff with the rest of the guns at range really playing any more defensively than they already were? it was never an close assault boat, except for to drop WG or FD down (which it still can do). it's firepower is thankfully diminished now but is still annoying and nasty on a DT.
gigasnail wrote: @wave serpents: i don't know we're really going to be seeing them used defensively. i think you're just going to see them alpha strike the opponent's face off T1 with all his serpents. it's still a fast skimmer, so it's going to move forward 6" and unload, adding its weight of fire to the bikes and WK and rest of the usual suspects. there's not much need to play defensively when you shoot 1/3 to half of the opponent's army off the board T1.
You can still play the serpent aggressively for a strong alpha-strike. However, after the serpent blows its "load", it is more of a defensive vehicle due to its serpent shield working more defensively than offensively. This is how I see most people play them. Go for a strong alpha-strike with the serpents and the rest of the army. Then deliver their payload - from fire dragons to wraithguards to howling banshees or whatever - to wherever they need to go. After that, move back, shoot and go for objectives on T5.
I disagree, I see it the opposite. Your wrong about the shield btw, once fired it now longer works in any form, offensively OR defensively. So stay resilient and then on critical turns use the shield. Is it one time use? Sure, but scatter lasers no longer became necessary and your shield has a much higher result when used thanks to 2d6 shots. The serpent is also cheaper, basically freeing up points for scats on your bikes.
I don't see spam as necessary and further I see it as a major pitfall for eldar players. You'll see less serpents overall, but used correctly they will be more effective. Serpents should house things like dark reapers while allied DE venoms and raiders ship wraithguard and firedragons. Most cheesy eldar lists will use bikes for troops, not DEVU serpents.
gigasnail wrote: @wave serpents: i don't know we're really going to be seeing them used defensively. i think you're just going to see them alpha strike the opponent's face off T1 with all his serpents. it's still a fast skimmer, so it's going to move forward 6" and unload, adding its weight of fire to the bikes and WK and rest of the usual suspects. there's not much need to play defensively when you shoot 1/3 to half of the opponent's army off the board T1.
You can still play the serpent aggressively for a strong alpha-strike. However, after the serpent blows its "load", it is more of a defensive vehicle due to its serpent shield working more defensively than offensively. This is how I see most people play them. Go for a strong alpha-strike with the serpents and the rest of the army. Then deliver their payload - from fire dragons to wraithguards to howling banshees or whatever - to wherever they need to go. After that, move back, shoot and go for objectives on T5.
I disagree, I see it the opposite. Your wrong about the shield btw, once fired it now longer works in any form, offensively OR defensively. So stay resilient and then on critical turns use the shield. Is it one time use? Sure, but scatter lasers no longer became necessary and your shield has a much higher result when used thanks to 2d6 shots. The serpent is also cheaper, basically freeing up points for scats on your bikes.
I don't see spam as necessary and further I see it as a major pitfall for eldar players. You'll see less serpents overall, but used correctly they will be more effective. Serpents should house things like dark reapers while allied DE venoms and raiders ship wraithguard and firedragons. Most cheesy eldar lists will use bikes for troops, not DEVU serpents.
I missed the part with Serpent Shields being expended completely after firing. I will go back and modify my review later. In that case, the serpent isn't really a defensive vehicle but rather, a true delivery vehicle. I don't see it being spammed at all. However, I do see other units, mainly windrider bikers, being units that will be spammed in an Eldar CAD army. That is the only true spam I see in the army, assuming wraithknights are being limited in most tournaments.
gigasnail wrote: i concur; but is alpha striking then playing standoff with the rest of the guns at range really playing any more defensively than they already were? it was never an close assault boat, except for to drop WG or FD down (which it still can do). it's firepower is thankfully diminished now but is still annoying and nasty on a DT.
Due to a misintepretation of the rules for the Wave Serpent, I will go back and modify my review of it. However, the final outcome still stands. The changes to wave serpents is a good thing, both for Tyranid players as well as for the rest of the 40K world.
So what do you guys think of my Eldar tactica so far? Any changes you'd like to see. Any disagreements on rankings so far? Are you finding it helpful or at least informative? Do you have any questions? Feel free to let me know.
I may be able to finish Part I tonight. I only have 1 more section to go. Part I is more of a general overview of the changes in the new Eldar codex. To know how to play against the new Eldar, you must understand (or at least be aware of) the changes in the army. Part II will be where I really get into the meat of Tactics for Tyranids against the new Eldar. Stay tuned!
Frozocrone wrote: That moment when the Good and Mild section almost equal the amount of Bad changes and the Ugly section is yet to come up
Gaunts to tarpit will probably be my number one choice these days..
Yeah, the new Eldar codex is so good. I've never seen a codex where almost every single unit in the book got better. I'd estimate that about 70% of the codex got better and the rest stayed at least the same as before. NONE of the units got worse. Wait, no...only ONE of the units in the new codex got worst (I'd give you a hint, it was the unit that was complained about the most in the last Eldar codex).
I don't think tarpitting is a good solution. The new Eldar are so dang fast that they can easily get out of the way of any of our tarpit units....and then shoot the crap out of them while doing so.
Tactica looks good. Eldar is nuts. This Codex is what would happen if every fluff-bunny dreamer on the Proposed Rules forum had their wildest suggestions come true. Every unit viable and strong. If only it weren't for the poor external balance of this Codex when compared to the game as whole.
What are you predictions for top-level Eldar lists? And the Tyranid lists that can beat it?
rollawaythestone wrote: Tactica looks good. Eldar is nuts. This Codex is what would happen if every fluff-bunny dreamer on the Proposed Rules forum had their wildest suggestions come true. Every unit viable and strong. If only it weren't for the poor external balance of this Codex when compared to the game as whole.
What are you predictions for top-level Eldar lists? And the Tyranid lists that can beat it?
Lol! Nice comparison to the Proposed Rules forum. That's a good one.
I'll jump ahead a little, as your questions will be covered in Part II of my tactica. Believe it or not, I don't think the best Eldar lists will be spam-lists. The only unit that will be spammed are the windrider jetbikes. The Eldar codex just has sooo many good units that you miss out if you spam the units. Rather, the strongest Eldar army will incorporate a combination of the following - CAD Eldar, Crimson Death formation, the Aspect Host formation, wraithknight and perhaps the Seer Council for deathstar builds. Most of these units I haven't covered yet, but I will in the Ugly section of Part I of my tactica.
As for Tyranid lists, lists similar to #Lictorshame may do well against the new Eldar. Flyrant-spam, cheap MSU Tyranid units and a plethora of 2+ cover units can potentially give the new Eldar problems. However, TMC-spam (other than FMC Tyranids) and slow Tyranid builds will die a thousand deaths against the new Eldar. You NEED mobility in order to play against them.
I'm not seeing the internal balance in the Eldar codex. For instance, Scatbikes put out 1.4 times as much damage as War Walkers and are faster, and objective secured. I'm not entirely sure why War Walkers would be taken. Wraith Guard are scary because of the D. But the Wraith Knight is a better platform for it, and the most undercosted unit in the game (argument for buffmander)
Jetbikes set a new benchmark for Strength 6 shooting. There is nothing in the game that can compete on a point for point basis.
So I'm thinking most eldar list start like this:
Wraith Knight
36 Scat Bikes.
....
I would look at the Crimson Hunter formation, or some farseers to fill it out, but just like us, most people will argue about the last 150 points.
I don't think there will be much diversity in highly competitive Eldar lists, because just like last codex, they have an undercosted platform that is an answer to basically everything the game can throw at them. Sure any other codex would love to take most of the Eldar units because they are universally good and undercosted, but the Wraith Knight and Jetbikes are on a whole other level.
If Wraith Guard are taken expect them to be with an allied web way portal, but because the Eldar codex offers a points efficiency that the Dark Eldar Codex doesn't match, I expect this to be not as good.
I kinda think any predictions of how they will perform are premature. Because I expect some sort of community sanctions to be enacted that fix ranged D (-1 on the table), and Scatbikes (only 1 in 3 bikes). If those changes are enacted we might indeed seem some amount of list diversity coming out of Eldar. You know the sort of nerfs that will make Eldar the best codex, not the only codex.
Hey I had an idea while building me some Termagants for my army.
Has anyone done 5x Fleshborers and 5x Devourers? 60pts for 20 S4 shots seems like a pretty good trade off, if fragile.
Or would it be better to get more bodies in there (I do want to drop pod 20 DevilGants at some point in my gaming life, sheer volume of dice should demoralize any opponent).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've also not had a chance to have a good look through the Eldar Codex but I think our Psychic Powers are now going to be pretty good against them. Paroxysm in particular to mitigate the Wraithknights Shooting (I don't think he's a Psyker so 6's to deny)
tag8833 wrote: I'm not seeing the internal balance in the Eldar codex. For instance, Scatbikes put out 1.4 times as much damage as War Walkers and are faster, and objective secured. I'm not entirely sure why War Walkers would be taken. Wraith Guard are scary because of the D. But the Wraith Knight is a better platform for it, and the most undercosted unit in the game (argument for buffmander)
Jetbikes set a new benchmark for Strength 6 shooting. There is nothing in the game that can compete on a point for point basis.
So I'm thinking most eldar list start like this:
Wraith Knight
36 Scat Bikes.
....
I would look at the Crimson Hunter formation, or some farseers to fill it out, but just like us, most people will argue about the last 150 points.
I don't think there will be much diversity in highly competitive Eldar lists, because just like last codex, they have an undercosted platform that is an answer to basically everything the game can throw at them. Sure any other codex would love to take most of the Eldar units because they are universally good and undercosted, but the Wraith Knight and Jetbikes are on a whole other level.
If Wraith Guard are taken expect them to be with an allied web way portal, but because the Eldar codex offers a points efficiency that the Dark Eldar Codex doesn't match, I expect this to be not as good.
I kinda think any predictions of how they will perform are premature. Because I expect some sort of community sanctions to be enacted that fix ranged D (-1 on the table), and Scatbikes (only 1 in 3 bikes). If those changes are enacted we might indeed seem some amount of list diversity coming out of Eldar. You know the sort of nerfs that will make Eldar the best codex, not the only codex.
If you only look at the codex mainly in terms of jetbikes and wraithknights, then you are truly missing out on how good the other units are as well. A true TAC Eldar list is more than just bikes and giant monsters, because taking mainly just those units will leave the army vulnerable to certain builds. Honestly, I don't see good TAC Eldar lists ever taking more than 30 scatbikes (6x5 bikes) plus 1 WK. As a matter of fact, I predict that many competitive Eldar builds will still run MSU and only up to 18 bikes (6x3). Consider the following:
Flyrant-spam - despite the volume-of-fire, scatbikes just isn't efficient against flyrant-spam. A unit of 10 bikes will only do 1W (or 2W if Prescienced). Meanwhile, a flyrant will kill 3 bikers a turn. Flyrants will win this war of attrition, especially if you run 4-5 of them. The best tool for the job would be the Crimson Death formation or even Dark Reapers.
Centurionstar - without Invisibility, 10 bikers will do 3 wounds a turn. With Invisibility, they will only do .74W a turn (or 2W for every 30 bikers). The centstar, on the other hand, will wipe out 1 unit a turn and potentially more (with splitfire). Against the centstar, the Hemlock Fighter, Vaul's Support Battery w/D-cannons or D-scythe Wraithguards work much more efficiently against them (assuming the ITC rules-change to Invisibility).
Necron Decurion - something like the Reclamation Legion, 2x20 Flayed Ones and the Destroyer Cult. It takes 20 bikers just to wipe out 1 unit of 3 Destroyers. But honestly, it will be more than that because destroyers will get the beta-strike against the bikers when they deepstrike in. Thus, they will force them to jink, making it much, much harder to shoot done Necrons with snapfire. Against crons, destroyer units like the WK, Vaul's Support Batteries, D-scythe wraithguards and even the Hemlock Wraithfighter works best.
Heavy Armor-spam (i.e. massed Leman Russes AM) - Scatbikes won't do anything to them, but units like fire dragons, Dual-brightlance war walkers, Destroyer units, the Crimson Death and other such units will shine.
Now I'm not saying biker-spam Eldar isn't effective. It is against the majority of the armies out there. However, taking too many bikers actually unbalances the army and does make the army into more of a rock-paper-scissors matchup than a more TAC Eldar list.
In terms of pure offensive output, scatbikes do out-perform Scatter walkers. However, there are reasons to take War Walkers in an Eldar army:
1. As specialized Weapons platforms. Give them 2x Brightlance each and they become great AT units. Give them 2x Starcannons and they become a very dangerous source of AP2 shooting, especially against MC's and other elite units. Give them 2x EML and they become an AA unit that also have the versatility to hurt MC's, tanks and horde armies.
2. Their ability to Outflank via Scout gives them a guaranteed alpha-strike to non-Intercept armies. It also gives the army better control of the Movement phase.
3. Armor makes them much more resilient to small-arms fire. They become more resilient towards these armies/units (i.e. blob squad AM, Necron warriors, bolter-fire, etc.).
Finally, as good as the WK is, he is still vulnerable to some units (i.e. grav centurions, faster MC's, certain deathstar units). Wraithguards are potential counters to some of these deathstars, especially if you can dangle a good bait for them (here's looking at you, WK ).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: Hey I had an idea while building me some Termagants for my army.
Has anyone done 5x Fleshborers and 5x Devourers? 60pts for 20 S4 shots seems like a pretty good trade off, if fragile.
Or would it be better to get more bodies in there (I do want to drop pod 20 DevilGants at some point in my gaming life, sheer volume of dice should demoralize any opponent).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've also not had a chance to have a good look through the Eldar Codex but I think our Psychic Powers are now going to be pretty good against them. Paroxysm in particular to mitigate the Wraithknights Shooting (I don't think he's a Psyker so 6's to deny)
I prefer to mix devourers with borers on bigger units. 5-gants is just too small a cushion for those devourers. An opponent can wipe out both in just 1 turn of shooting. However, put 10 devourers into a unit of 30 termagants and then you are more likely to see a return-on-investment. I prefer to keep the min-sized gant squads as purely sacrificial, screening, throwaway units and instead, put the guns onto beefier units. That's just my preference.
Devilgants in a spore is a decent option. It's quite expensive, but it can put the hurt on certain units at least.
Tyranid psychic powers are decent, no matter what army you go up against. Paroxysm is always a good choice, though instead of putting it on the WK, I recommend you cast it on a large biker squad instead. Their damage output on average is much higher than that of the WK.
I think you vastly overestimate 5 flyrants vs Jetbikes (44.44 if we are comparing points). If the jetbikes get 1st turn, 2 flyrants are dying on the ground in 2+ cover. On 2nd turn they can kill 1 in the air statistically. On points Jetbikes come out better shooting at Flyrants in 2+ cover then the flyrants do shooting back. Once they are airborne the balance shifts, but not that much. Plus, Imagine people run Jetbikes like we run Devourer Gants. Put a few cheap ones out front as ablative wounds.
To discuss them as a hard counter is vastly overestimating their survivability, and underestimate the volume of fire.
Give them support in the form of farseers or the Crimson hunter formation (as I suggested), and now we are talking about an army that is a hard counter to 5 flyrants in a progressive objectives game, and a good counter in Eternal War.
The same is true for Centstar. It is usually 3 Cents and some ICs. 3 Wounds is 1/3 of your firepower down.
Decurion, specifically Destroyers are a pretty decent counter. We will give it a try locally at some point. Jetbikes vs Decurion Destroyers. My money is on the Destroyers killing more stuff and losing the game because jetbikes will just outscore them, or possibly tarpit them on top of objectives with objective secured.
In such a matchup - Eldar bikes vs flyrants - the army that goes first will always have the advantage. 44 bikers going first might kill 2 flyrants, but 5 flyrants going first will also kill 15 bikers. Moreover, they will be in the air and thus harder for the bikers to deal with. However, watch what happens if you don't take flyrants (or if you take fewer flyrants). Now you've lost (or nerfed) your ability to alpha-strike the bikers and now, they can just take their time to shoot your army to pieces and from a safe distance. While flyrant-spam isn't the only weapon we have against Eldar, unfortunately, it is one of our best weapons against them. The ability to hit the space elves hard the first time around is what will give our bugs a chance against them. With flyrant-spam, our chances of winning such an encounter is about a coin-flip. Without them, the odds of us beating THE BEST ARMY CURRENTLY goes down dramatically.
As for the centstar, well, let's just say I am confident my centstar list can handle the new space elves. But this thread isn't about marines so I won't elaborate on that here.
Frozocrone wrote: Hey I had an idea while building me some Termagants for my army.
Has anyone done 5x Fleshborers and 5x Devourers? 60pts for 20 S4 shots seems like a pretty good trade off, if fragile.
Or would it be better to get more bodies in there (I do want to drop pod 20 DevilGants at some point in my gaming life, sheer volume of dice should demoralize any opponent).
I've tried a couple of similar things as part of the Endless Swarm formation:
12x Termas with 8 Devourers
15x Termas with 10 Devourers
Both have worked pretty amazingly - they're the best part of the formation for sure. You can stick more devs in a unit because you don't mind too much if it dies, and it can pop out of Trygon holes to do some pretty nice damage. I guess if I was not running with respawning gaunts a lower ratio of devs:fleshborers would be the way forward though.
jy2 wrote: In such a matchup - Eldar bikes vs flyrants - the army that goes first will always have the advantage. 44 bikers going first might kill 2 flyrants, but 5 flyrants going first will also kill 15 bikers. Moreover, they will be in the air and thus harder for the bikers to deal with. However, watch what happens if you don't take flyrants (or if you take fewer flyrants). Now you've lost (or nerfed) your ability to alpha-strike the bikers and now, they can just take their time to shoot your army to pieces and from a safe distance. While flyrant-spam isn't the only weapon we have against Eldar, unfortunately, it is one of our best weapons against them. The ability to hit the space elves hard the first time around is what will give our bugs a chance against them. With flyrant-spam, our chances of winning such an encounter is about a coin-flip. Without them, the odds of us beating THE BEST ARMY CURRENTLY goes down dramatically.
As for the centstar, well, let's just say I am confident my centstar list can handle the new space elves. But this thread isn't about marines so I won't elaborate on that here.
Its like what I posted in my Daemon thread... whoever alpha strike first has the biggest advantage. Bringing a Aegis w com relay might be a good idea.
Because the new Eldar codex is so bonkers, I was theory crafting an update for my Eldar Ally. I've long considered Eldar to replace my Barbed Heirodule, because they can do the same things without putting all my Eggs in one basked that can get D'ed or Gravved.
Reviewing the new codex the answer seems that the Crimson Death formation makes an ideal ally for a Tyranid Flying Circus. They do everything that Flyarnts (or Crones and Harpies for that matter) struggle to do, and are vulnerable to the same things as flyrants, so it seems like a match made in heaven. It also frees up 125 points for more scoring units. Also because of vector dancer, and their excellent mobility avoiding one-eye-open tests is easy. The only problem is getting a reserve modifier in the list.
You could have a CAD instead and have the Flyers alongside Jetbikes and an Autarch on Bike (for reserves). Could even have one Hemlock for easy D-weapons on Super-Heavy's and Gargantuans. Maybe a Farseer too for additional Warp Charges.
tag8833 wrote: Because the new Eldar codex is so bonkers, I was theory crafting an update for my Eldar Ally. I've long considered Eldar to replace my Barbed Heirodule, because they can do the same things without putting all my Eggs in one basked that can get D'ed or Gravved.
Reviewing the new codex the answer seems that the Crimson Death formation makes an ideal ally for a Tyranid Flying Circus. They do everything that Flyarnts (or Crones and Harpies for that matter) struggle to do, and are vulnerable to the same things as flyrants, so it seems like a match made in heaven. It also frees up 125 points for more scoring units. Also because of vector dancer, and their excellent mobility avoiding one-eye-open tests is easy. The only problem is getting a reserve modifier in the list.
The problem is that most tournaments nowadays do not allow for CtA allies. So in casual games, ok. But for competitive play, that is a no-no.
Also, another problem with TFC + Crimson Death is that you will struggle in Maelstrom missions (or Secondaries). Every air force armies still need a decent ground presence. With so many flyers, that would be hard to achieve.
While I don't like the idea of bugs teaming up with Eldar, if I were to do it, I'd go with a Farseer Skyrunner, 5 scatbikes and a wraithknight. Go for Telepathy for the Farseer for Invisiblity and/or Shrouding + Shriek + possibly Prescience. That is a strong basis for a ground force. It's main weakness? Grav-centurions, but otherwise, I think it's a good combo.
jy2 wrote: In such a matchup - Eldar bikes vs flyrants - the army that goes first will always have the advantage. 44 bikers going first might kill 2 flyrants, but 5 flyrants going first will also kill 15 bikers. Moreover, they will be in the air and thus harder for the bikers to deal with. However, watch what happens if you don't take flyrants (or if you take fewer flyrants). Now you've lost (or nerfed) your ability to alpha-strike the bikers and now, they can just take their time to shoot your army to pieces and from a safe distance. While flyrant-spam isn't the only weapon we have against Eldar, unfortunately, it is one of our best weapons against them. The ability to hit the space elves hard the first time around is what will give our bugs a chance against them. With flyrant-spam, our chances of winning such an encounter is about a coin-flip. Without them, the odds of us beating THE BEST ARMY CURRENTLY goes down dramatically.
As for the centstar, well, let's just say I am confident my centstar list can handle the new space elves. But this thread isn't about marines so I won't elaborate on that here.
Its like what I posted in my Daemon thread... whoever alpha strike first has the biggest advantage. Bringing a Aegis w com relay might be a good idea.
Wow. I didn't know Daemons have the ability to alpha-strike. I guess in the case of Daemons, they want to go first to get off their Psychic defenses and get into Swooping mode before the opponent has a chance to alpha-strike them while they are vulnerable.
jy2 wrote: The problem is that most tournaments nowadays do not allow for CtA allies. So in casual games, ok. But for competitive play, that is a no-no.
Every time I've been asked I've voted against CTA. Every tournament I've ever been to save the one's I've helped run had CTA. While regionally, it may be taboo, I think CTA is more common than a lack of it.
I prefer the Quad-flyrant list. However, instead of the Sporemine Field, consider taking a bastion with Comms. I think that would benefit your list much more overall.
jy2 wrote: The problem is that most tournaments nowadays do not allow for CtA allies. So in casual games, ok. But for competitive play, that is a no-no.
Every time I've been asked I've voted against CTA. Every tournament I've ever been to save the one's I've helped run had CTA. While regionally, it may be taboo, I think CTA is more common than a lack of it.
Smaller tourneys are likely to do whatever the local meta wants, but larger tourneys, especially any of those that follow the ITC, Nova or Adepticon, are going to ban CtA allies. In any case, if it is ok in your meta, then go with it if that is what you would like to run.
BTW, massed flyrants plus 3 Eldar flyers is more than likely to overrun the casual player. I wouldn't recommend this type of list when going up against average gamers, unless you plan mainly to use it with a group of friends who are all more-or-less on the same competitive level.
I prefer the Quad-flyrant list. However, instead of the Sporemine Field, consider taking a bastion with Comms. I think that would benefit your list much more overall.
jy2 wrote: The problem is that most tournaments nowadays do not allow for CtA allies. So in casual games, ok. But for competitive play, that is a no-no.
Every time I've been asked I've voted against CTA. Every tournament I've ever been to save the one's I've helped run had CTA. While regionally, it may be taboo, I think CTA is more common than a lack of it.
Smaller tourneys are likely to do whatever the local meta wants, but larger tourneys, especially any of those that follow the ITC, Nova or Adepticon, are going to ban CtA allies. In any case, if it is ok in your meta, then go with it if that is what you would like to run.
BTW, massed flyrants plus 3 Eldar flyers is more than likely to overrun the casual player. I wouldn't recommend this type of list when going up against average gamers, unless you plan mainly to use it with a group of friends who are all more-or-less on the same competitive level.
Oops they both have a bastions with comms relay already >__<
Gud stuff on both lists. I like 4 Flyrants but I have terrible luck with Mawlocs :p
Has anyone else stopped taking Malanthropes or Venomthropes in their lists? I feel like he doesn't do a lot in my meta. Usual opponents are Tau (yeah), Necrons (starting to put Nebuloscopes on his Tomb Blades) Space Marines (Relic Whirlwind Scorpius w/ Battle of Keylek) and Chaos (Helldrakes).
I feel like those 45/85 points could be spent better..
Frozocrone wrote: Gud stuff on both lists. I like 4 Flyrants but I have terrible luck with Mawlocs :p
Has anyone else stopped taking Malanthropes or Venomthropes in their lists? I feel like he doesn't do a lot in my meta. Usual opponents are Tau (yeah), Necrons (starting to put Nebuloscopes on his Tomb Blades) Space Marines (Relic Whirlwind Scorpius w/ Battle of Keylek) and Chaos (Helldrakes).
I feel like those 45/85 points could be spent better..
I actually had that in my original post with my 2 army lists that you helped comment on. But I thought it would be too many questions in 1 thread and wanted to keep it on my armies.
Sort of feel the same way... It's usually there for T1 if I want to keep my Flyrants on the board and get a 2+ save if I'm in some Ruins or something. But after that it kind of just hangs around the back... feel like I could better use his spot for another Lictor or something...
jy2 wrote: The problem is that most tournaments nowadays do not allow for CtA allies. So in casual games, ok. But for competitive play, that is a no-no.
Every time I've been asked I've voted against CTA. Every tournament I've ever been to save the one's I've helped run had CTA. While regionally, it may be taboo, I think CTA is more common than a lack of it.
Smaller tourneys are likely to do whatever the local meta wants, but larger tourneys, especially any of those that follow the ITC, Nova or Adepticon, are going to ban CtA allies. In any case, if it is ok in your meta, then go with it if that is what you would like to run.
Nova and Adepticon both allowed CtA last year. LVO the biggest Tourney I've ever attended had CtA, and lots of them. As far as I know every FLG event except last year's BAO has allowed CtA. Locally we crib from the big boys, so far the only format we've run that didn't allow it was Da Boyz. I know that ITC voted to not allow CtA, but so far that is only theoretical. I am excited to see this brave new world where CtA is no longer allowed at major events, and we are excited to run a "Wargames Con" format event, and chance are about 6 - 10 head to Austin, but until there is a track record any sort of restrictions are theoretical only just like restrictions to Ranged D.
jy2 wrote: BTW, massed flyrants plus 3 Eldar flyers is more than likely to overrun the casual player. I wouldn't recommend this type of list when going up against average gamers, unless you plan mainly to use it with a group of friends who are all more-or-less on the same competitive level.
Definitely agree. It feels a little less objectionable to me than running 5 flyrants. Only slightly, so its probably not something I'm likely to do. I only ever brought out my wave serpents twice, because playing 40k in easy mode isn't something that appeals to me very much.
Funny story. A friend asked me if he could keep bringing 3 Wraith Knights to "fun" games, even though they are now Lords of War, or if I felt like that might be too much.
On another topic, I was doing ATC practice tonight, and played a crazy Centstar. Draigo + 2 x Librarian (ML3) + Tiggy + Chapter Master on Bike (Shield Eternal) + 6 Cents (4 Grav, 2 Heavy Bolter) backed up by 2 Thunderfire Cannons. It was ATC mission #3. Progressive + Relic + Kill points. The deathstar spent the entire game invisible with 2+ invuls. I was able to eek it out with my Green tide. I had a Warboss + a single nob left holding the relic when the game ended on 5. I lost Kill points by 1, but won progressive and the Relic, and got 1st blood, so final score was 21 to 10.
I wonder how you would play a Tyranid list against such an opponent. I know with my 'nids I would have had a better chance of denying Invis, but still the Death star is pretty tough, and between the various other psychic powers it felt effectively unkillalble, and had lots of ability to kill TMCs. My Barbed Heirodule list would have lost to it pretty easily. Lictor shame type lists don't stand a chance in kill points or the relic, because you can't really get any kill points out of the deathstar, and there are only 5 other kill points on the table, so if the star kills one unit a turn they have tied you, and there is no reason the star wouldn't gate on to the relic and stay there until the end of the game. In this case the Relic was on the upper level or ruins, so Mawlocs do no good, and against the 2++ or 3++ saves, they wouldn't have done much anyways. Flyrant spam can't win on Kill points, and can't win on the Relic and would struggle to even get the progressive missions. I just don't even know how to list tailor to beat this list, and compete on the Relic or Kill points. Anyone got a thought?
Are there any other good Carnifex builds aside 2x Devourers? I know I wrote up the tactica for them but I've just become so used to Dakkafex these days that I've never used anything else. Got about 120 points left, 140 if I remove Egrubs on the Flyrants. Are Scything Talon Variants good?
Frozocrone wrote: Are there any other good Carnifex builds aside 2x Devourers? I know I wrote up the tactica for them but I've just become so used to Dakkafex these days that I've never used anything else. Got about 120 points left, 140 if I remove Egrubs on the Flyrants. Are Scything Talon Variants good?
STC + Devourers can work against certain matchups. Especially now that Eldar / Necron Mech is abating somewhat.
Running them naked or with Adrenal glands can work against matchups that aren't Tau, Necrons, or Eldar.
I took a couple of Carnifexes and added some bits to turn them into stone crushers. Stone Crushers can work a bit.
Honestly, if you are looking to fill 140 points I recommend a Mawloc. If you want to use a Carnifex in that slot, I recommend a ST + ST + AG Carnifex. The other thing I often do with 140 leftover points is run 20 Termagants (10 Devourers, 10 Fleshborers) and give Hive commander to a Flyrant so that I can outflank them. It is matchup dependent, as has been noted previously most of the meta changes since the dawn of 7th have been bad for Tyranid units not named flyrants. A dakkafex in a Tyrannocyte works fairly well, but is still only marginally competitive.
tag8833 wrote: Nova and Adepticon both allowed CtA last year. LVO the biggest Tourney I've ever attended had CtA, and lots of them. As far as I know every FLG event except last year's BAO has allowed CtA. Locally we crib from the big boys, so far the only format we've run that didn't allow it was Da Boyz. I know that ITC voted to not allow CtA, but so far that is only theoretical. I am excited to see this brave new world where CtA is no longer allowed at major events, and we are excited to run a "Wargames Con" format event, and chance are about 6 - 10 head to Austin, but until there is a track record any sort of restrictions are theoretical only just like restrictions to Ranged D.
I apologize. It appears that I was partially mistaken. After reviewing the Nova and Adepticon rules, I don't see any mention of CtA being banned. I was under the assumption that Nova was going to follow the ITC rules, but it doesn't seem like that's the case.
As for the ITC, yes, they've already made the changes after this year's LVO. So any tournaments using the ITC rules should not be allowing CtA allies.
tag8833 wrote: On another topic, I was doing ATC practice tonight, and played a crazy Centstar. Draigo + 2 x Librarian (ML3) + Tiggy + Chapter Master on Bike (Shield Eternal) + 6 Cents (4 Grav, 2 Heavy Bolter) backed up by 2 Thunderfire Cannons. It was ATC mission #3. Progressive + Relic + Kill points. The deathstar spent the entire game invisible with 2+ invuls. I was able to eek it out with my Green tide. I had a Warboss + a single nob left holding the relic when the game ended on 5. I lost Kill points by 1, but won progressive and the Relic, and got 1st blood, so final score was 21 to 10.
I wonder how you would play a Tyranid list against such an opponent. I know with my 'nids I would have had a better chance of denying Invis, but still the Death star is pretty tough, and between the various other psychic powers it felt effectively unkillalble, and had lots of ability to kill TMCs. My Barbed Heirodule list would have lost to it pretty easily. Lictor shame type lists don't stand a chance in kill points or the relic, because you can't really get any kill points out of the deathstar, and there are only 5 other kill points on the table, so if the star kills one unit a turn they have tied you, and there is no reason the star wouldn't gate on to the relic and stay there until the end of the game. In this case the Relic was on the upper level or ruins, so Mawlocs do no good, and against the 2++ or 3++ saves, they wouldn't have done much anyways. Flyrant spam can't win on Kill points, and can't win on the Relic and would struggle to even get the progressive missions. I just don't even know how to list tailor to beat this list, and compete on the Relic or Kill points. Anyone got a thought?
Ironically, you might see me at the ATC with my centstar as well. I haven't decided yet, but it's going to be either the centstar or Tyranids there.
My Centstar list is pretty rough. You won't kill it. The best you can do is to try to kill off the rest of the army and pray that the star doesn't get Perfect Timing. Also, opt to go 2nd in objectives-based scenarios and go for the T5 contest. As for KP's, it really depends on the list. I run centstar + MSU. Thus, besides my centstar, I have another 9KP's in the army that Tyranids can easily take. If it was anything other than the Relic + a low-unit-count deathstar army, I think bugs will do ok. But it appears that you just had a bad matchup with mission scenarios that favored your opponent, but despite that, you won anyways.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: Are there any other good Carnifex builds aside 2x Devourers? I know I wrote up the tactica for them but I've just become so used to Dakkafex these days that I've never used anything else. Got about 120 points left, 140 if I remove Egrubs on the Flyrants. Are Scything Talon Variants good?
Naked fexes are ok. Nothing spectacular, but they are cheap for a dangerous MC. Just make sure you have other threats to take the heat off of it. Otherwise, it'll die rather quickly.
Another option would be to put him in a mycetic spore. You might get more mileage out of him that way.
jy2 wrote: But it appears that you just had a bad matchup with mission scenarios that favored your opponent, but despite that, you won anyways.
For my Orks it wasn't a terrible matchup. My Green tide is nearly as scary of a deathstar as the Centstar, and I really only had 6 easy kill points. Unfortunately he sniped out the IC's from my Green Tide with the TFC's. Painboy died on turn 2 which is how he did so much damage to the Tide. Kill points ended 3-4 in his favor.
But it is an abysmal matchup for Tyranids. Your Centstar at least has a few more soft targets so Nids have a better chance in Kill points. I would like to run 'Nids much more than Orks, but my team needs me to face the other team's heavy hitters, and the missions are built for deathstars, and Tyranids just don't deathstar very well.
So the new Eldar codex just came out and there is already a lot of fear among the gaming community with regards to their new release. Massed S6 shooting from fast, ObSec jetbike troops, cheap skyfire throughout the army, Lord of War wraithknights that you can now spam and the proliferation of Destroyer weaponry within the codex makes it sound even more frightening than the previous iteration of the codex, which many already considered to be the best army in the game. So, are they really that bad? Are Tyranids destined to be slaughtered by the mighty, mighty space elves? My initial thoughts....no. Not by a long shot. The new Eldar is a very strong army. However, they are not ridiculously over-powering, at least not to our bugs. We do have the tools to deal with them.
This tactica will be presented from the Tyranid perspective. How have Eldar changes affected Tyranids as an opponent and how can we combat them? I am going to break this tactica into 2 parts.
The first part will take a more in-depth look at the Eldar units and rules and how they will affect our Tyranids. I will be focusing more on the changes in the new codex and consequently, the effect that they will have on us.
Part II - Playing against Eldar
This part, I will go into detail with regards to the strengths and the weaknesses of Eldar in relation to Tyranids. I will also offer insight as to what you will typically see in a competitive, Take-All-Comer's Eldar army. Finally, I will explore how Tyranids can combat the new Eldar.
This tactica will be a WIP (work-in-progress) and will be updated on a daily basis until completed.
PART II - PLAYING AGAINST ELDAR
The Strengths of Eldar
From a Tyranid perspective, what makes Eldar so difficult to play against? Why will we, or basically any other army, have problems against the new Eldar? What can we as Tyranid players do about it? In order to develop a gameplan against your opponent, you have to understand his strengths and weaknesses. This chapter will focus on the strengths of the new Eldar in a general overview.
High Mobility: One of the biggest strengths of Eldar is its high mobility. The new Eldar is without question one of the fastest armies currently. However, not only are they super-fast, but they are a highly maneuverable army as well. They've got skimmers that can move up to 30" (or more with wargear) and jetbikes that can move 48". They've got jump infantry who can move 18" (Swooping Hawks) and jetpack infantry who can move 6"+2D6". They've got mobility in almost every Force Organization slot thanks to Wave Serpent dedicated transports. They've also got deepstrikers, infiltrators (Rangers, Striking Scorpions) and outflankers (War Walkers, any army with Eldrad). In terms of the Movement phase, they've got total flexibility, both with regards to Movement and Deployment. Their flexible mobility makes it a problem for assault Tyranids (and most assault armies in general) to deal with. It's just really hard to catch Eldar if the Eldar player doesn't want you to. All the while, he will be pelting your army with shots as you try to get close.
Now I have mentioned about the speed of Eldar. However, what sets them apart from the other fast armies is not just their speed, but their high maneuverability as well. In my opinion, Eldar is the most maneuverable army currently. What I mean by maneuverability is that they've got a lot of Movement shenanigans that they can do that very few other armies can. First of all, almost every infantry unit in the codex (including their walkers) have Battle Focus. Battle Focus allows a unit to run and then shoot or to shoot and then run. What it does is to allow the army to shoot and then move into a defensive position (i.e. into cover or behind Line-of-Sight blocking terrain) or to move and then shoot to get more range. This is a defensive boon as sometimes, it allows the Eldar unit to shoot and then get out of retalitorial fire, enemy charge range or into cover.
Secondly, a lot of Eldar units - Eldar jetbikes and Warp Spiders - have the ability to move again in the Assault phase, just like Tau Crisis Suits or Necron Destroyers. That means that they can move out of cover or BLOS (blocking-LOS) terrain, shoot and then jump back behind BLOS terrain. This also allows them to get within shooting range of enemy assault units and then move out of their assault threat range afterwards. Warp Spiders are especially nasty when it comes to Movement shenanigans. They can move 6"+2D6", then shoot and Battle Focus another D6" (re-rollable because they are Fleet) and on top of that, can move another 2D6" in the Assault phase for a maximum potential movement distance of 36" by just 1 infantry unit! And if you think that was bad, Warp Spiders can also move in the opponent's Shooting phase, potentially taking them out of range or LOS of the unit targeting them!
It is the maneuverability that will make it hard for even other shooting armies to deal with. You need mobile firepower to deal with the space elves. Static gunline armies will have a hard time shooting at them unless they have barrage firepower (assuming they aren't playing on a terrain-lite table with no BLOS terrain). Assault armies will have a tough time catching them due to their speed. If your army does not have mobility, you will be playing with an inherent disadvantage against the new Eldar.
High Firepower: Believe it or not, the Eldar have actually become a more shooty army than before. Windrider jetbikes with Scatter Lasers (otherwise know as scatbikes) have replaced the wave serpent as the main shooter in the Eldar army. While they don't have the intangibles of the wave serpent (twin-linked shots, the ability to ignore cover), scatbikes put out much more pure raw firepower than the wave serpents did. On average, the older wave serpents were able to pump out 4 S6 shots at 36", 4.5 S7 shots at 60" and another 3 S6 shots at 24", all for 130-pts. The cost per shot ratio of the older wave serpent is 11.3 pts/shot (the lower the number, the better). In comparison, a Necron Annihilation Barge shot, with 4 S7 shots and 2 S6 shots, costs 20 pts/shot. 3 Broadsides (210-pts) with High-Yield Missile Pods (12 S7 hosts) and SMS (12 S5 shots) costs 8.75 pts/shot and a flyrant with 2x Twin-linked Brainleech Devourers (230-pts) costs 19.2 pts/shot. In comparison, 5 scatbikes (only 135-pts) put out 20 S6 shots for only 6.75 pts/shot. In terms of raw output, the scatbike is the new King of Firepower.
Not only do Eldar have scatbikes, but there are many other units in the codex that shoot really well. Scatter Walkers (War Walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers each) put out 24 S6 shots at a cost of only 7.5 pts/shot. Swooping Hawks put out a high amount of small-arms firepower that could be a threat to horde armies. Warp spiders put up a good amount of S6 shots and their shots, unlike other Eldar shots, wound based on Initiative. That means the high toughness characteristic of Tyranid units won't protect them. MC's such as tervigons, mawlocs, exocrines, etc. are wounded on a 2+ by the Warp Spiders. Even flyrants will be wounded on a 3+ (as opposed to being wounded on a 4+ last edition). Finally, even the lowly Vyper, a tax unit that many Eldar builds will have to take, can put out 6 S6 shots at a cost of only 8.3 pts/shot! The codex is just littered with super-efficient shooters throughout and I am not just talking about small-arms fire (S4 or less). They are actually super-efficient high-strength shooting.
Strong Combined Arms Detachment: As great as the formation are in the codex, the detachment that most competitive Eldar players are going to use is just a normal Combined Arms Detachment, or CAD. This is for 3 reasons mainly:
1. Objective Secured troops. None of the Eldar Guardian Host formations offer Objective Secured. You can only obtain ObSec through CAD.
2. Firepower. Running CAD allows a player to spam what is potentially the best unit in the codex, the scatbikes. If you want raw firepower, going CAD will let you do so.
3. Cut through the "tax" units. Most of the formations include with certain "tax" units that you must take in order to run the formation. Going with CAD allows you to ignore these restrictions. For example, if you want to run wraithguards in a Guardian Host detachment, you must also take 1 Spiritseer, 1 Wraithlord and 1 Wraithknight (and then you must run 3 units of Wraithguards or Wraithblades). Running CAD will let you take 1-3 wraithguards without any pre-requisites or restrictions (other than having 1 HQ and 2 troops as is standard in any CAD army). Want to run 1 unit of Fire Dragons or Dire Avengers? With the Guardian Host detachments, you can't just run 1; you need to run 3 of those units.
Massed Destroyer Weaponry: I don't know if this is going to be a new trend or not (I sure hope not!), but with the new Eldar, you will see Destroyer weaponry on an unprecedented scale. Before, armies can only get Destroyer weaponry through Lord of War units, which is a 0-1 selection for each detachment. The 2 newer releases - Necrons and Daemonkin - started to allow Destroyer weaponry on normal units, but those units were either hard to come by (only 1 per Daemonkin detachment), really expensive (due to being a Lord of War) or randomized (Necron C'tans). With Eldar, it is unbelievable just how common Destroyer weapons are in the codex. A lot of the common units can carry it and they are spread throughout the Force Organization slots so that Destroyer weaponry can easily be spammed. In the Elite slot, you can take wraithguards with either D-shots or D-templates. In the Fast Attack, you can take the Hemlock Wraithfighter with 2 D-blasts. In the Heavy Support, you can take the Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries with D-artillery (barrages). And then, of course, there is the Lord of War Wraithknight with either D-shots or D-close-combat abilities. All it takes is a '6' on some of these Distort weapons and you can kiss your super-elite unit goodbye. D-weaponry will spell the death of Tyranid Monstrous Creature spam (TMC-spam) unless they are of the flying variety.
The King of Maelstrom: Without a doubt, the new Eldar is the king of Maelstrom missions. The combination of high mobility, high maneuverability and ObSec units makes them the best army at getting to the objectives. Then, high firepower gives them the ability to easily clear out enemy units for the "kill-a-unit" portion of the Maelstrom objectives. They have the pure, raw speed to get to any objective. But wait, great manueverability allows them to clear enemy units on an objective (by shooting them into oblivion) and then Battle Focus onto the objective or jump onto the objective in the Assault phase.
Great Psychic Army: Eldar is an excellent psychic army if you run the Seer Council. Being able to cast powers on a 3+ instead of a 4+ and being able to re-roll 1 failed attempt each turn (for each Farseer) means that they are super-reliable when it comes to getting their powers off. In addition, they have a wargear, the Spirit Stones of Anath'lan, that reduces the difficulty of casting any psychic power by 1 warp charge (to a minimum of 1), thus making even the more difficult powers quite easy to cast. Defensively, the amount of power dice they can have plus the ability to re-roll 1 failed Deny the Witch test per Farseer per turn means that they are good at shutting down enemy psykers as well. All it takes is for them to shut down 1 crucial power - perhaps Fortune on another seer council or Gate/Perfect Timing on a centurionstar - and they will have a major advantage against those types of armies.
The Best Lord of War in the Game: Eldar have what is arguably the best Lord of War Super-heavy/Gargantuan unit in the game currently. The wraithknight was already a very good unit even when it was not a Gargantuan Creature (GC) last edition. Now make him a GC and give him some Destroyer weaponry (either shooting or assault) - all for a measly 55-pts increase - and he becomes bonkers. There is no other GC in the game that can do what he does and for the cost that he costs. Expect to see every competitive Eldar army to have 1. Fortunately for the majority of the 40K gamers, most tournaments tend to limit the number of LoW units you can carry to 1. However, if you are playing normal 40K rules, a Guardian Host detachment can potentially take up to 12 Wraithknights!!! Tyranids just do not have a good answer for Wraithknights, other than to bring their own Gargantuan Creatures...which is still not a great answer to them.
The Strengths of Tyranids
High Mobility: Fortunately for Tyranids, they actually have the mobility to keep up with Eldar. Flying dakkarants (Hive tyrants with wings and 2 brainleech devourers) have the mobility and range to hit Eldar bikers almost anywhere on the table, so it will be hard for the bikers to hide from them. Hive crones and harpies can also get to the Eldar units, though there offensive output is no where near that of the dakka flyrant. Mawlocs can burrow up from underneath to hurt Eldar units as well, and if the Eldar choose to ignore them and move away, the mawloc can just go back into Ongoing Reserves to strike again the following turn. Tyrannocyte spores can bring in dakkafexes for 1 turn of shooting before the space elves move out of the way. After the FMC's, mawlocs and units in spores, however, Tyranids just do not have an easy answer to Eldar mobility.
2+ Shrouded Cover: Thanks to the changes to the Wave Serpent, cover is viable once again against Eldar. Fortunately for Tyranids, cover is one thing that they can do very well with venomthropes and malanthropes. A Tyranid unit with 2+ cover in ruins protected by a venom/malanthrope can present a problem to Eldar, especially if the venom/malanthrope can survive the initial volley of cover-ignoring firepower from any opposing Wave Serpents. Also, fortunately for our bugs, you won't see nearly as many wave serpents in a typical Eldar list as you used to. Nowadays, most Eldar lists will have 1 or 2 at most. A lot of Eldar armies won't even bring them. Now you don't necessarily need 2+ cover for the entire game. You just need it on Turn 1 for your FMC's to survive the enemy alpha-strike should your opponent go first. After that, your FMC's will take off into Swooping mode and cover won't be nearly as important as it was when your flyers were on the ground. Finally, going-to-ground whenever possible (i.e. lictors in ruins away from Synapse) is actually a viable tactic to survive incoming enemy fire.
Flying Monstrous Creatures: You need a lot of resiliency to fight against the new Eldar, otherwise, their shooting can literally blow you away. Fortunately for Tyranids, we have the answer with our flying monstrous creatures. Eldar actually has a lot of anti-air capability. The Crimson Death formation (3 Crimson Hunters), skyfiring Eldar Missile Launchers (EML's) readily available on a wide range of platforms, swooping hawks, dark reapers and just massed firepower powered with Guide/Prescience. As good as EML's are, I really don't see Eldar players spamming them. Moreover, they are only S7 AP4. Dark reapers are twin-linked against flyers, but they still only hit on 6's. So the 2 most common forms of AA that you will actually see in a typical Eldar army are the Crimson Death formation and just volume-of-fire from various Eldar ground units supported by psychic powers.
1 unit of 10 scatbikers shooting at a Tyrant (40 S6 shots) on the ground does 4.4W of damage, enough to kill the Tyrant. The same unit of bikers shooting at a Tyrant in the air only does 1.1W (or 2W with Guide/Prescience). Thus, the FMC Tyrant in the air (flyrant) is 4x more survivable than the Tyrant on the ground (walkrant). The only common unit(s) that will kill the flyrant equally as well as the walkrant is the Crimson Death flyers. So if you want to survive Eldar firepower, the best way for Tyranids to do so is to take to the air.
One thing to note is that FMC-spam is a double-edged sword. Having too many FMC's isn't necessarily a good thing (except in Victory Point missions). Tyranid FMC's must be supported by enough ground units. Otherwise, they will lose in Maelstrom missions or any mission with a Maelstrom component to it. My general rule-of-thumb is to have no more than 2/3 of your army invested in flying monstrous creatures. Save at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the points in the army for ground forces. Otherwise, Eldar might have problems killing the FMC's, but then they will win by picking up most of the Maelstrom points.
MSU Tyranids: Tyranids can actually do MSU quite well. MSU, or multiple-small-units, is basically an army that takes lots of small (and cheap), min-sized units. Besides the flyrants, they have a lot of cheap units that can actually be quite survivable in terrain. Deepstriking rippers, infiltrating/outflanking 5-man genestealer squads and lictors all complement flyrants very well, especially in Maelstrom objectives or missions with a Maelstrom component. So why do MSU work well against Eldar?
Take, for example, a dimachaeron and a lictor. A unit of 10 scatbikes fire at them (40 S6 shots). Against the dimachaeron, they do 4.4W of damage. Against the lictor, which goes-to-ground in ruins for 2+ cover, the bikers do 3.7W, thus killing it. Now you may ask, the dimachaeron survived and the lictor didn't so why bother taking the lictor at all? Here is why:
1. For the price of the dimachaeron, you can buy 4 lictors. So while Eldar has killed 1, the 3 other lictors survive to claim objectives elsewhere.
2. It takes 2 units of bikers to shoot down the dimachaeron. It takes 4 units of bikers to shoot down 4 lictors. Thus, the Eldar player needs to allocate double the resources just to kill the lictors. That means there will be less shooting against the actual damage-dealers in the army, the flyrants. Or if the Eldar player targets the flyrants, that means the lictors have a lot higher chance to survive and claim Maelstrom objectives each and every turn (or Eternal War objectives at the end of the game).
3. Overkill. 40 S6 shots going into a MC/large unit is good. No shots are wasted. 40 S6 shots going into 1 small unit is overkill. All the excess wounds are wasted. For example, 10 scatbikes shoot at 20 genestealers out in the open. They kill 15 models. The same 10 scatbikes shoot at 1 lictor out in the open as well. They also do 15W. However, they only kill 1 model. So which is better? Losing 1 50-pt model or losing 210-pts worth of models? The stronger the opposing unit, the more efficient MSU becomes because the amount of Overkill increases. That is why MSU works so well against Deathstar armies. Many deathstars can easily kill a 200-pt unit, but will waste a lot of their offense just to kill 1 50-pt unit. And then you've still got 3 other 50-pt unit left (for the same cost as the 200-pt unit).
Strong Psychic Army: Tyranids are actually a very strong psychic army. Not really a psychic heavyweight like Daemons, Grey Knights or Seer Council Eldar, but they are very strong against mid to non-psychic armies. Psychically, they may struggle against a psychic-heavy Eldar build (such as the Seer Council). However, they can and will dominate most of the other Eldar builds in the Psychic phase. Catalyst is always useful. Onslaught will help to increase the threat range of the flyrants. Horror is not as useful because 1) bikes cannot be pinned and 2) many of the other Eldar units are either Fearless or have Morale re-rolling mechanisms. Scream combined with Shadows in the Warp can surprise Eldar psychic units. Warp Blast can be useful. However, arguably one of the best powers against Eldar will be Paroxysm. An Eldar unit that gets Paroxysed will probably shoot at your flyrant, thus leaving fewer Eldar units to shoot at your more fragile ground units. Thus, Paroxysm can be used to help your ground units to survive longer.
Competitive Eldar Builds
So what might you see in a typical Take-All-Comers competitive Eldar army? What types of Eldar armies will you see in competitive play? Now there are 3 things that you will see in almost every competitive Eldar army:
1. CAD. Simply put, a standard Combined Arms Detachment, or CAD Eldar, is just better than any of the 3 core Eldar formations in their new codex (for the reasons listed under the Strengths of Eldar). Expect the majority of tournament Eldar players to be running a standard CAD.
2. Windrider jetbikes. This is simply one of the best units in the codex. Period. They are super-fast. They have ridiculous firepower. You can run them in large squads for massive carnage. You can run them in minimum 3-bike squads as MSU. They are spammable and last but not least, they can be ObSec.
3. Wraithknight. A very good unit in the previous edition has gotten even better in this edition, and at a cost that is simply too cheap to pass up. Expect to see him in almost every competitive Eldar list (as long as the tournament allows for Gargantuan Lord of Wars).
There are many good Eldar builds that you can potentially see in a tournament. The following builds (and lists) are just a few examples of what you may see in a competitive setting. I will include sample 1850 lists as that is the prevalent tournament standard for many of the larger tournaments.
Bike-Spam Eldar: This type of list relies on the sheer firepower of its Objective Secured troops, with the Crimson Death formation thrown in for anti-air and the Wraithknight as a counter-assault unit. You better be able to catch those bikes when going up against this type of list. Your army also needs to be able to weather a ridiculous amount of firepower to survive against this type of list.
The Seer Council: At the core of this list is the Seer Council. It is a psychic deathstar and it will dominate the Psychic phase against most armies. Other psychic-heavy armies like Daemons or the Centstar need to beware....the Seer Council is very good at shutting down critical powers. Fortunately for Tyranids, they don't have to rely too heavily on psychic powers. Also, in many seer council lists, you will see Baharroth as the CADHQ of choice.
Seer Council:
Farseer Skyrunner - Shard of Anaris
Farseer Skyrunner - Spirit Stones of Anath'lan
5 Jetlocks
MSU Eldar: This type of list focuses on sheer efficiency of firepower in Multiple Small Units, or MSU. It is pure spam at its spammiest. It is also super redundant and a problem for many deathstar builds (or elite armies) to deal with. Its main drawback is that it tends to give off a lot of Victory Points.
D-Spam Eldar: This type of list tends to emphasize the use of Destroyer weaponry in its arsenal. I'm not exactly sure how great of a Take-All-Comer's list it is, but it's got the potential to be brutal against the right opponent.
Footdar: Footdar is not as powerful as the lists with Scatterbikes. Its main shortcomings are that it lacks the mobility and the ranged firepower of some of the other lists. However, it is still a strong build that you may potentially see in a tournament. This is probably the only list where you may want to consider the Guardian Battlehost or Guardian Stormhost over a normal CAD. Also, expect to see a rare appearance by the Avatar in certain Footdar lists as well as the excellent Aspect Host formation in it.
Eldar with Dark Eldar Allies: The main reason for combining Eldar with Dark Eldar is as a delivery system for Wraithguards with D-scythes. You will see the Webway Portal as well as D-scythe Wraithguards in this type of list. You may also see DE Fast Attack transports as a cheap delivery system for the Wraithguards.
Dark Eldar Allies:
Succubus - Webway Portal, Glaive
5 Warriors
Raider (Note - this is a Fast Attack choice)
Eldar with Harlequin Allies: You will also see the new Eldar teaming up with the new Harlequins as a competitive build. This type of list usually revolves around 2 builds - the Eldar/Harlie LD-Bomb or the Eldar/Harlie Harlistar deathstar build. In either case, both types of lists will take advantage of stackable, Leadership-reducing abilities as part of their offensive repertoire.
Now you make one of your Troupe Masters and in maelstrom just try for the +2/-2 random game length. This alone can be game breaking. You have Windriders for ObSec. What are we doing here? Well, if you really want to attack LD the Death Jesters ‘Death Is Not Enough’ is darn capable. A lot of units will be taking that -2 LD morale test as Jesters will get some casualties. And the Jesters fit into the Starweavers ( capacity 6). When the Hemlocks come we stack their -2 LD 12” bubble with the Jesters and units will be running off the edges of the table. Finally we have a Lvl 2 Mask of Secrets psyker. This guy will do buffs and also reduce LD. Remember you get to pick the direction the effected units flee if they take Jester casualties. The Masque detachment does have ‘Rising Crescendo’ - run and charge. But really we will charge only after we weaken squads. Those that do not run off the table we can finish off. Did I mention this list has a slew of S6 shots - 80+ a turn. So even Flyrants can be hurt. -felixcat
The Eldar Airforce: With the tendency towards flyer-heavy armies at tournaments, you might just see something like this. It is also probably Eldar's best answer to our flyrant-spam.
Mechdar: Lastly, with so many wave serpents in people's possession, you will still see mechdar in tournament play. It won't be quite as spammy as it used to be, but it just might be the most common build still in the early stages of the new codex.
How can we kill those nimble Windrider jetbikes? How can we survive the tremendous firepower of the Eldar? What can we do against the mighty Wraithknight? What can we do to limit Eldar mobility? How do we deal with the Seer Council? How do we play against Eldar in Maelstrom missions? In short, how do Tyranids play against the new Eldar? In this chapter, I will analyze the various tactics that Tyranids can employ to deal with the new space elves.
First of all, before you even see an Eldar army across from you on the tabletop, your army needs to have the right tools in order to deal with them. Tactics against Eldar does not just begin when you first face them; it begins much earlier than that. That's right. Preparing for Eldar begins in the list-building phase, and I don't mean tailoring your list to beat Eldar. Rather, you need to build a balanced Take-All-Comer's (TAC) list that can address the concerns that are the new Eldar as well as most of the other competitive non-Eldar army builds as well. Fortunately for us Tyranid players, almost all the tools that you will need against Eldar are also tools that you will find in most balanced, Tyranid TAC lists as well.
Pre-game Strategy - Army Resiliency: The Eldar can put out an incredible amount of firepower. Windrider jetbikes, along with a lot of other Eldar units, are super-shooty. In order to play against them, your list needs to be tough. One of the inherent strengths of Tyranid armies, Toughness 6 MC's, just isn't enough. Eldar don't just put out an incredible amount of firepower, but they put out an incredible amount of high-strength firepower. Basically, there are 3 ways to survive Eldar firepower:
1. Go flyer-heavy, or Tyranid FMC-spam. Eldar actually have good anti-air firepower. However, they, like most armies, will still struggle when faced with too many flyers. Just be careful not to overdo it with the FMC's. You still need ground units to play to the objectives, especially in Maelstrom-type scenarios.
2. 2+ Shrouded cover. Consider running venomthropes/malanthropes in your list. You don't need to spam them, but just 1 or 2 will go a long ways to making your army that much more survivable against Eldar firepower. Also, cover is much more viable against the new Eldar now due to the nerf to wave serpents. While they can ignore cover with 2D6 S6 shots, they can only do so once per game and their range is only 24" now (or 36" if you include its movement). As long as you can protect your venom/malanthrope from the initial volley, then your army will have better long-term survivability from Eldar shooting.
Also, if you are running lictors, go-to-ground in ruins if you have to. As long as your lictor is out of Synapse range, go for the 2+ cover if it is being shot at by staggering Eldar firepower. Then, if you need it to get back up, just move a source of Synapse (i.e. flyrant) within range of the lictor and then it can act normally again.
3. Fortifications. Consider running a fortification for added protection. You can house your more vulnerable cover-giver - the venom/malanthrope - in a bunker or bastion. It also allows you to get the Comms Relay if you are running a mainly Reserves-based Tyranid army. With the bunker/bastion, however, you do need to beware of the Wraithknight or Wraithguards. They will take it out very easily. Another option to consider would be a Void Shield Generator (VSG). The VSG will give you initial protection from enemy alpha-strikes. You can also use it to give your units protection throughout the game by moving your FMC's into Void Shield range when they leave the table and come back in.
Pre-game Strategy - Mobility: The saying "you can't kill what you can't catch" is particularly true about Eldar. Simply put, you NEED mobility to deal with the new Eldar. If you don't have mobility in your Tyranid army, you simply won't win against a decent Eldar army. Superior firing range as well as Eldar movement shenanigans means that they can pick apart your army from a safe distance and then move out of range or LOS from your return-fire or slower assault units. Your army MUST have the mobility to threaten Eldar units.
Fortunately for Tyranids, we do have a lot of mobile units. Flyrants are our All-Stars. They will be our main weapon against Eldar. Hive crones and harpies can also help, though their effectiveness will vary greatly. For the ground units, we have gargoyles for ground control. As long as you trail them back into venom/malanthrope range, they will be our best tarpit option, especially against the likes of the Wraithknight. Tyranid units in Tyrannocyte spores give us a quick-hit-fix and area control, and mawlocs are really good in the mobility department due to their ability to re-position themselves as needed. Finally, while not very mobile, we have biovores who have the range and shooting to hit Eldar units no matter where they hide.
Pre-game Strategy - Tyranid Firepower: Just as you need mobility against Eldar, you also need some shooting against them as well. Tyranid assault units just aren't very optimal at all against Eldar. Most of their units have the mobility to just get away from the majority of our assault units. Otherwise, most good Eldar armies will have the firepower to easily shoot them down, especially if our assault units are not under the protection of Shroud from a venom/malanthrope. Finally, Eldar actually have a very good counter-assault unit in the Wraithknight. Our Tyranid monstrous creatures will learn to fear the WK as he will own most of our assault units in close-combat.
So make sure to include some shooting in your list. The best shooty unit for us will be the dakka Flyrant, or winged Flyrant with dual Brainleech devourers. Other units to consider would be dakkafexes, preferably in Tyrannocyte spores, devilgants (Termagants with devourers) in a Tyrannocyte spore, harpies, hive crones, exorcrines and biovores (or the Living Artillery Node formation).
Pre-game Strategy - The Flyrant: The Flyrant without a doubt is our best tool to use against the new Eldar. They satisfy all three of the requirements I listed above. They are resilient due to being a flyer. They've got mobility and can hit the Eldar units almost anywhere on the table. You really can't hide from the flyrants. They are also our most reliable and consistent source of firepower and offense, and they can do so safely without putting themselves at high risk by staying in the air. Moreover, they are our main source for both psychic powers and psychic defense as well as our best answer to enemy flyers. You NEED flyrants in our fight against the Eldar. That is without question. The only question is, how many? I would say run at least 2 but the more, the better. I think that 4 will be our sweet spot, but 3 can work as well.
Pre-game Strategy - MSU Tyranids: Another strategy I recommend is to take a look at multiple-small-units, or MSU Tyranids. Eldar excel in taking out elite or expensive units. Between their Destroyer weaponry (from Wraithknights to Wraithguards to D-cannon Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries) as well as their sheer firepower, Eldar will do very well against one of our more popular Tyranid builds - Nidzilla. Also, with the amount of firepower that they possess, they can do a number on our hordes of gribblies as well. However, if you run MSU (backed by Tyranid flyers), then the Eldar actually becomes less efficient because they will tend to overkill units. A lot of their offensive potential is wasted as they have to over-allocate resources just to deal with a unit that is a fraction of their cost. 10 Scatterbikes can potentially kill a 200-pt TMC in just 1 turn of shooting. However, split that 200-pt MC into 4 50-pt units and now it will take those same bikers 4 turns just to kill the same amount of points of units.
At the same time, running MSU makes us better in objectives games and in particular, Maelstrom scenarios. We just have more units to spread out onto more objectives, and it takes the enemy more resources to deal with our MSU units. Instead of taking 2 200-pt units that can only claim/contest 2 objectives, you could take 8 50-pts units that can claim/contest up to 8 objectives and that is actually harder to kill for the more elite armies/units. Now MSU does have an exploitable weakness and that is it gives off a lot of Victory Points in VP missions. However, VP missions are a minority nowadays - only 1 in 6 Eternal War missions. Even the Maelstrom missions are more objectives-dominated than they are kill-a-unit sub-missions.
Lastly, MSU complements Flyrant-spam very well. Flyrants are very expensive. If you throw in other TMC's or horde units into a Flyrant-spam build, the army becomes an elitist army very quickly. Unless you are running a super-deathstar, Eldar can very easily deal with elitist armies. MSU allows us to run more units to help balance out the relatively few units/bodies that a Flyrant-spam list normally entails. Basically, MSU helps to round out a Flyrant-spam list into a better, Take-All-Comer's list. Without them, a Flyrant-spam list will struggle in Progressive or Maelstrom missions.
Objective Placement: When going up against Eldar, tactics begin as early as the pre-game setup phase. How you setup the objectives is just as important as to how you play against Eldar. There are several key factors when placing objectives in a game against Eldar.
1. You want to place objectives in terrain and especially in ruins. You can take advantage of the cover better than Eldar can. Windrider bikes cannot go-to-ground. Non-Fearless Tyranid units outside of Synapse can. And even if they can't, ruins give better protection to Tyranid infantry units than their natural saves. On the other hand, Eldar units do not receive better protection from ruins, at least not from Tyranid shooting. Eldar just have a lot more AP2/1 shooting than Tyranids so our TMC's/FMC's will benefit more from ruins cover than Eldar will. Finally, ruins is a dangerous terrain test for their ObSec jetbike troops.
2. Spread out the objectives. So why do we want to spread out the objectives? After all, Eldar has even more mobility than Tyranids. The reason is that we don't want to make it easy for their "big" guy to defend various objectives. Also, this will prevent their more elite killing units - the Wraithguards - from covering multiple objectives as well. If you have the objectives close together, the Wraithknight can very easily go from objective to objective to clear out any Tyranid unit holding those objectives, and there really isn't very much that we can do to stop him. And then there are the Eldar deathstars like the Seer Council, the Harlequinstar or the Wraithstar. Putting the objectives close together just makes it easier for these Eldar deathstar builds to control the board.
3. Beware of Blocking Line-of-Sight (BLOS) terrain. While we can benefit from BLOS terrain, Eldar can benefit from them even more. That is because of their move shenanigans. They can move out in the open, shoot and then Battle Focus back behind BLOS terrain. Or if the troops are bikers, they can then jump back behind terrain in the Assault phase after shooting in the Shooting phase. Warp spiders and bikers in particular will abuse the heck out of BLOS terrain. When placing objectives, try to minimize, or maybe even avoid, putting them right next to or behind BLOS terrain.
Going 1st or 2nd: The existential dilemma for many armies - is it better to go 1st or to go 2nd? There are many advantages for going 1st for a Flyrant-spam army. First of all, you will get the alpha-strike on the opponent. Secondly, you can set up your defenses by taking to the air (for FMC's) and getting off your psychic powers. Usually, there are 3 cases where I would consider going 1st for my Tyranids.
1. Pure Victory Point missions. In a pure VP mission, you want the alpha-strike against your opponent.
2. Pure Maelstrom missions. In a pure Maelstrom mission, where Maelstrom objectives are scored at the end of every player turn, you want to go 1st, especially if you are running an alpha-strike list like Flyrant-spam.
3. You are going up against a very shooty army, especially one that can potentially cripple your army with their alpha-strike. This really depends on what type of list your opponent is running. Of the Eldar sample armies that I listed, only the Biker-spam build has an alpha-strike capability to be feared. The rest of the armies tend not to hit as hard until Turn 2...they are what we refer to as beta-strike armies.
Now with that said, in any game that involves Objectives or Secondaries with objectives, including Maelstrom Secondaries that score at the end of each Game Turn, going 2nd is usually more advantageous. Tyranids can actually be built to be highly resistant to enemy alpha-strike armies. With ample 2+ Shrouded cover available and perhaps even the protection of Void Shields, Tyranids are actually really resilient to most non-cover-ignoring armies. Thus, if you can take the initial hit, then opt to go 2nd for the final say on the objectives.
Target Prioritization: Target prioritization is always important no matter the army one goes up against. The question isn't whether you should prioritize your targets or not. It's how to prioritize them. Which should you focus on? Which should you ignore? In terms of target prioritization, I have 2 philosophies which I go by:
1. Kill the biggest threat that you reasonably can first. When I say threat, there are 3 main types - offensive, mobile and ObSec/scoring. The more of those traits the target possesses, the higher the priority it is. In this case, the Windrider jetbikes are usually one of the highest priority targets. They are an offensive threat with their tremendous firepower. They are highly mobile and they are also ObSec, which makes them always a threat to the objectives. However, certain threats - units like the Wraithknight and the Seer Council - I actually prioritize as low and I will explain why in my next target prioritizational point. Here are the threats and my assessment of their priority levels:
Highest Priority - Windrider Jetbikes, Wraithguards in a transport
High Priority - Warp Spiders, Scatter Walkers, Swooping Hawks, Vypers, Force-multiplier units (or FMU's, like the Avatar or isolated enemy psykers), CAD Eldar flyers, Transports for certain offensive units
Medium Priority - Crimson Death formation, Slower offensive units like Dark Reapers, Eldar foot infantry units, Eldar Heavy Support Tanks
Low Priority - Wraithlords, Vaul's Wrath Batteries, Wraithknight, Eldar deathstars like the Seer Council
2. Efficiency of Kill. Kill the threat that is easier to kill first. This is the main reason why I rate the Wraithknight and Eldar deathstars so low on the Priority scale. They are just so inefficient for Tyranids to try to kill. It takes 15 flyrants shooting just to kill 1 Wraithknight! That means that if you are running 3 flyrants, they would have to be shooting at him for 5 turns continuously just to kill him! Better to just ignore him. The Seer Council (or other Eldar deathstars) is potentially worse, especially if your opponent can get off psychic powers like Invisibility, Fortune and Conceal/Protect. DO NOT shoot at these types of units. Your best bet is to just ignore them and go after easier prey. If the psychic deathstar fails to get off its crucial powers (Fortune AND Invisibility), then you can go after it. Otherwise, forget about it.
Efficiency of Kill is also why I rate the lone Crimson Hunter as a higher priority than the Crimson Death formation. The solitary Crimson Hunter (from a CAD) and a Crimson Hunter from the Crimson Death formation both do the same amount of damage. However, the Crimson Death Crimson Hunter is twice as hard to kill, so between the 2, you kill the one that is easier to kill. That is why I set the regular hunter as a higher priority than one from the Crimson Hunter formation.
Also, between a biker squad and an Invisible biker squad, the normal biker squad would receive a higher priority on my kill list because it is much, much easier to kill. The Invisible unit of bikers drop down on my priority scale to perhaps a medium priority unit due to the sheer amount of effort it takes to kill the unit (of course you can always assault it to tie it up if you have a unit within assault range). Anytime you can buff up a unit with Invisibility or Fortune, that unit will drop on the priority scale unless there are no higher priority units for you to target.
Now there are always exceptions. Sometimes, you just need to kill a particular unit because he is claiming or contesting an objective. Sometimes, you need to kill a unit to deny your opponent a Tertiary objective (i.e. Linebreaker, Table Quarters). Sometimes, you want to kill a unit because it has the Warlord in it. Sometimes, you just can't get to those higher priority targets. Now extenuating circumstances aside, it is almost always better to go after the easier-to-kill high priority targets first and then work your way down the priority ladder after you've taken care of those threats.
Psychic Powers: Psychic powers can be useful against Eldar. However, if you are going up against the Seer Council, keep in mind that they are very good at shutting down psychic powers, thanks to the fact that they can re-roll 1 Deny attempt a turn per Farseer (there is some ambiguity here so make sure to discuss with your opponent beforehand) and the fact that a Seer Council usually start off with at least 11 Warp dice. Thus, do not overly rely on Psychic powers. Rather, look at it as a bonus if you get your power off. Also, if you can get a flyrant to within Shadows range of the Seer Council (and for some reason, they stay within Shadows range on their turn), then that could be useful. But again, do not overly rely on this tactic and only do it when there is not another more important task at hand (i.e. such as moving your flyrants into position to shoot up the rest of the army or to grab an objective).
Beware of BLOS Terrain. The new Eldar will be really good at using Blocking Line-of-Sight (BLOS) terrain to their advantage, just like the Tau. Do not let them hold such a terrain for long, especially if you have ground units or an objective within range of their shooting. If there are no higher-priority targets, then move a flyrant on top of the BLOS terrain where the Eldar are "hiding". This way, there will be no place for the Eldar unit to avoid your firepower. You will also force the Eldar opponent to deal with your flyrant as the more immediate threat as opposed to your more fragile ground units.
Plan Out the Flight Paths of your FMC's. When you move your flyers, you need to think about where you eventually want them to end up. You need to account for 1) enemy Reserves, 2) objectives, 3) ruins and cover and 4) what you think your opponent will do next.
1. Always be aware of what Reserves are left to come in for you opponent. Namely, you need to brace your flyers for Eldar units like Warp Spiders, outflanking Scatter Walkers and the Crimson Death/Eldar flyers coming in from Reserves if they haven't done so already. For example, if you are expecting enemy flyers to come in next turn, then try to move your flyrants into both ruins and Devourer range of enemy units. This way, when his flyers come in next turn, you are already in cover and do not need to jink. Another example would be to move your flyrants into your Void Shield Generator range if at all possible.
2. You must always be aware of where your objectives are when moving your flyers. This is especially true for Eternal War scenarios and on Turn 4. When you move your flyer on Turn 4, always keep him close to 1 or more objectives. This way, on Turn 5, he can just go into Gliding mode to take an objective. I can't state enough how many times I've seen a Tyranid player who gets so caught up in trying to kill his opponent's units (by chasing after them) that, by the time Turn 5 comes around, his flyrant is grossly out of position to grab an objective (or to get Linebreaker).
3. When going after the enemy, try to move your flyers into ruins if at all possible. This will save you from having to jink when your opponent shoots at your FMC on their turn.
4. Anticipate the movement of you opponent. The Eldar is super-fast. Many of their units have the ability and mobility to reposition themselves very quickly. As a Tyranid player, you need to anticipate how your Eldar opponent might react to your own movements. Most likely, the Eldar player is going to go directly behind you and force your FMC to either go into Glide mode to turn around or to fly off the table. Or they may turbo 36" to another BLOS terrain where there is another objective. In any case, give them space. For example, if you can move your flyrant such that you can stay about 18" from the enemy's entire unit (every enemy model is within 18" of your Devourers), then keep your distance. You don't need to move to within 1" of the enemy unless you plan to jump onto an objective that is behind them next turn. The more distance there is between your flyer and the enemy unit, the harder it will be for him to get behind your flyrant and the more time you will have to react to whatever your opponent does.
Play to the Objectives. I can't stress this enough. You need to be aware of your objectives at all times. In the game of 40K, as fun as it is to kill the enemy, in most cases you don't necessarily have to kill them to win the game. What you do need to do, however, is to accumulate points. Objectives are what will give you those points. At the beginning of every turn, you need to think about how you will achieve your objectives. This will determine how you will move your units and which enemy units you will need to take out. When you move your flyers, you need to take into consideration how they are going to take objectives when you plan out their flight paths (especially on Turn 4). Sometimes, killing enemy units will give you objective points, but more often than not, they won't. Do not get too caught up with trying to kill the enemy. Do so only if it furthers the goal to your objectives.
A good practice to do is, at the beginning of each of your turns, take a minute or 2 to review your objectives. Also, review your opponent's objectives as well to see what he needs to do - doing so will allow you to better anticipate his moves. Then take another minute or so to plan out what you need to do. Do not just jump headlong into your turn. Planning ahead will give you an advantage in the game if your opponent doesn't do the same.
Also, you need ground units to play most objective games, especially progressive objectives like Maelstrom objectives (progressive objectives are objectives that are scored at the end of every turn instead of at the end of the game). You really don't want to use your flyrants to land and grab objectives if you can avoid it. Against Eldar, a grounded flyrant in all likelihood is a dead flyrant. Better to let them kill you "chaff" units, the ground units, after you've scored the point already with them. Losing a 50-pt unit does not hurt your army nearly as much as losing a 230-pt flying unit.
Playing Against the Crimson Death Formation: The Crimson Death formation, which consists of 2 Crimson Hunters and 1 Crimson Exarch, will be the main source of anti-air for many competitive Eldar armies. It will also be the main threat against Tyranid flyers as each flyer can fire 4 S8 AP2 skyfire shots. Each Hunter can potentially take out 1 flyrant all by itself. As such, what can we as Tyranid players do against the formation? First of all, try to end your FMC's movement in ruins if at all possible. If not, then you can always jink but you will sacrifice the offense for that flyrant next turn. Secondly, psychic powers such as Catalyst or Paroxysm on the enemy flyer can help to mitigate the damage. Finally, consider flying off the table before the enemy flyers come in from Reserves. This way, you can come back in next turn to attempt to get the first strike against the Eldar flyers. Sometimes, you can even come back in within Void Shield or even venom/malanthrope protection range. This tactic will really depend on whether your FMC has another viable target on the ground first. If it doesn't, then the decision to fly off will be an easy one. If it does have a higher priority target to go after, then you've got a decision to make. If your flyrant is at full health, perhaps you can take the risk and leave him on the table, but if he is already wounded, then perhaps it may be better to live and fight another turn.
Now the question is, should you go after the Crimson Death flyers? If the Hunter jinks, it will take 27 twin-linked flyrant Devourer shots to take down a flyer (each flyrant will do 1.33HP of damage). That's a little over 2 flyrants just to shoot one down, meaning you need to have 3 flyrants shooting just to take out 1 Crimson Death flyer. Now, if the Hunter isn't from the Crimson Death formation, it only takes 1 flyrant (2.67HP) on average to take down the Eldar flyer. That is why I rank the Crimson Death flyers on a lower target priority level. It just isn't very efficient to go after them as it will take you double the firepower (triple if you count whole flyrants) just to take one down. The Efficiency of Kill is low. I would recommend you go after other units with a higher Efficiency of Kill (i.e. higher priority) factor if there are any.
Do Not Remind Your Opponent About Mysterious Objectives. Any time you play a flyer-heavy army, it is NOT in your best interest to play Mysterious Objectives, as that can give your opponent another tool to deal with your FMC's. However, in many cases, Mysterious Objectives are optional, even in competitive play. Also, in may cases, people oftentimes forget about Mysterious Objectives, just like they do sometimes about bringing in their Reserves or if they forget an entire phase (I've seen many people forget about their own Psychic phase, including myself). In any case, if your opponent forgets, then it is NOT your responsibility to remind him (just as if he forgets one of his own rules). Let him learn through his own mistakes.
Conclusion
Playing against Eldar for Tyranids begin as early as the list-building phase. Against the new Eldar, your Tyranid army needs resiliency. It needs to have mobility and it needs to incorporate some shooting. Fortunately for us, the Tyranid army has the tools to combat the space elves, and we can even do so with a balanced, Take-All-Comer's list. The two keys to our success against Eldar will be in our Flying Monstrous Creatures and in running Multiple-Small-Unit lists. The following is a sample of an 1850 Tyranid list that incorporates these characteristics, using both the Hive Fleet Leviathan Detachment and a standard Combined Arms Detachment. There are many others, of course.
Building a good list is 1/3rd of the battle. The rest is 1/3rd dice and 1/3rd tactics. The dice, you really can't do anything about that. What you can control, however, is your in-game tactics, and the two most important tactics against Eldar are proper target prioritization and to never lose sight of your objectives. Building the right list gives you the tools to play to the objectives. However, you still must focus on the objectives and plan your moves and target prioritizations relative to your objectives. Kill off his fast, offensive threats to eliminate his capability to hurt your army or to play to his objectives, but do so with the units that are easier to kill off first. The more units you can quickly take out, the better it will be for your army. Why kill the Wraithknight with 15 flyrants shooting, when that amount of firepower can lay waste to 5-8 different units instead, as well as his capability to grab 5-8 objectives instead? Follow these tactics and you stand a decent chance to beat the new Eldar. Even if you don't beat them, I guarantee that you will give them a great fight for their money.
Frozocrone wrote: Gud stuff on both lists. I like 4 Flyrants but I have terrible luck with Mawlocs :p
Has anyone else stopped taking Malanthropes or Venomthropes in their lists? I feel like he doesn't do a lot in my meta. Usual opponents are Tau (yeah), Necrons (starting to put Nebuloscopes on his Tomb Blades) Space Marines (Relic Whirlwind Scorpius w/ Battle of Keylek) and Chaos (Helldrakes).
I feel like those 45/85 points could be spent better..
He is still useful because you can leave him at home to take a "home" objective. Also, if your flyrants fly off the table, they can come back in within range of the malanthrope (venomthrope) for some protection, especially against armies strong with skyfire units.
If you know what your meta normally runs, then you can leave him (the venom/malan) off your list. However, in a tournament where you don't know what you will be facing, I feel that the venom/malan is a necessity to protect your army against whatever they may encounter.
the shrouded lord wrote: Tyrannofex with rapture cannon... I just obtained one for the cost of $0.00
Hey, where can I get it for that price?
foto69man wrote: Going to the Alamo GT in a few weeks. Going to run nidzilla and just have fun, possibly annoy people with a win or two lol. Here is my list :
Dakka Flyrant
Dakka Flyrant
Rippers with deep strike
Rippers
Tyrannofex in a pod with flamer
Dakka Fex in a pod
So not an OP list at all although there are few very strong units. The quad flyrant Nid player had no mawlocs, just one malanthrope. His list was good - not sure it was a tournament list but neither is mine. I squeaked a win despite his psychic powers, SotW (which hurt) and his early and persistent targeting of all units with emls. He should have worried about my Scat walkers too in hindsight. He also had bad luck and twice failed grounding tests and took wounds from perils - hello d-weapons.
-Observations -
-Wraths Support batteries are stupid good against any and all ground targets.
-Scatterlaser Walkers are bloody dangerous and should be dealt with - never ignored. They will wound FMCs too.
-Aspect shrine is silly. The rules mean you always get a lot of hits against targets you want to hurt. Is the buff of +1 BS and re rolls on morale even legit?
-Attacking LD is smart. I lost a squad as a result. SotW plus psychic powers hurts. A lot.
-I near lost the game because of no ObSec. Only the fact that I could entirely control the mid table enabled me to pull out a very narrow win. Another turn and I might have lost.
So not an OP list at all although there are few very strong units. The quad flyrant Nid player had no mawlocs, just one malanthrope. His list was good - not sure it was a tournament list but neither is mine. I squeaked a win despite his psychic powers, SotW (which hurt) and his early and persistent targeting of all units with emls. He should have worried about my Scat walkers too in hindsight. He also had bad luck and twice failed grounding tests and took wounds from perils - hello d-weapons.
-Observations -
-Wraths Support batteries are stupid good against any and all ground targets.
-Scatterlaser Walkers are bloody dangerous and should be dealt with - never ignored. They will wound FMCs too.
-Aspect shrine is silly. The rules mean you always get a lot of hits against targets you want to hurt. Is the buff of +1 BS and re rolls on morale even legit?
-Attacking LD is smart. I lost a squad as a result. SotW plus psychic powers hurts. A lot.
-I near lost the game because of no ObSec. Only the fact that I could entirely control the mid table enabled me to pull out a very narrow win. Another turn and I might have lost.
Yeah, wrong target priority definitely didn't help his (your opponent's) cause. Tyranids IMO can compete. However, you really can't afford to make mistakes like that against Eldar.
Yeah, wrong target priority definitely didn't help his (your opponent's) cause. Tyranids IMO can compete. However, you really can't afford to make mistakes like that against Eldar. Yeah, wrong target priority definitely didn't help his (your opponent's) cause. Tyranids IMO can compete. However, you really can't afford to make mistakes like that against Eldar.
The list has no reserve manipulation and restricted deployment options - nothing really to reserve or outflank other than walkers and is rather easy to predict - by this I mean that a savvy opponent can target prioritize easily. My opponent did make a few mistakes. He generally plays tighter but I think everyone is still learning what Eldar can do. He wanted to take out the Repers and Vypers first because I talked them up a lot before the game as his major threats to his flyers. And they are powerful in their own right. But d-weapons, scatter walkers and even warlocks cannot be dismissed (do not let singing spears get close). The thing is the number of threatening targets an Eldar list can field with guardian hoist and aspect shrines makes it difficult at times.
Guys, what are your views on Tyrannocyctes from a usefullness/monetary cost point of view. I have a GW voucher with which I could get two. Is two enough? Are they worth it overall? Are their any proxy options that might be cheaper?
So not an OP list at all although there are few very strong units. The quad flyrant Nid player had no mawlocs, just one malanthrope. His list was good - not sure it was a tournament list but neither is mine. I squeaked a win despite his psychic powers, SotW (which hurt) and his early and persistent targeting of all units with emls. He should have worried about my Scat walkers too in hindsight. He also had bad luck and twice failed grounding tests and took wounds from perils - hello d-weapons.
-Observations -
-Wraths Support batteries are stupid good against any and all ground targets.
-Scatterlaser Walkers are bloody dangerous and should be dealt with - never ignored. They will wound FMCs too.
-Aspect shrine is silly. The rules mean you always get a lot of hits against targets you want to hurt. Is the buff of +1 BS and re rolls on morale even legit?
-Attacking LD is smart. I lost a squad as a result. SotW plus psychic powers hurts. A lot.
-I near lost the game because of no ObSec. Only the fact that I could entirely control the mid table enabled me to pull out a very narrow win. Another turn and I might have lost.
Seeing this...
I think perhaps a stronger observation could be made for eldar here.
Eldar Missile Launchers got a huge buff in the last book. One of many 'sleeper' buffs. Free Skyfire is huge in a Flyer meta.
And from last count you had 3 BS6, 2 shot skyfire missiles (Dark Reapers), 2 footblob skyfire shots (well protected in a Guardian blob each) and 3 fast moving EML shots from Vypers.
Now, if you were EML heavy before this codex? Fair enough. You got buffs and can giggle like a maniacal supervillain at how well you made out with this book. If not it seems like it was very much stacked against the 'nids from the start.
I actually was tempted to take my Walkers with Scattr/EML as well, lol. Yes they are really good now - and Dark Reapers get a free fast shot exarch as well. And it is actually four shots from my guardians - two in each squad. So a total of ten skyfire shots plus the re roll six dark reaper shots at BS2 that ignore jink. But I would not call the list stacked against Nids. I could have used three crimson hunters and three hemlocks after all. That would have been stacked.
Ratius wrote: Guys, what are your views on Tyrannocyctes from a usefullness/monetary cost point of view. I have a GW voucher with which I could get two. Is two enough? Are they worth it overall? Are their any proxy options that might be cheaper?
I like pods, both the rules and models. I have 3 home built ones, and have been eyeing the official models too - though I think 3 should be enough, really. My costs for building mine were maybe $10, I used Pomegranate drink bottles (delicious) and hot glue/Tyranid bits. I am content with them, but they are not as cool as the official models.
I keep thinking of new and fun ways to drop in units - I think that the pods really add versatility to the army. So many slow units can have their drawbacks mitigated. And... It's fluffy!
Ratius wrote: Guys, what are your views on Tyrannocyctes from a usefullness/monetary cost point of view. I have a GW voucher with which I could get two. Is two enough? Are they worth it overall? Are their any proxy options that might be cheaper?
I like pods, both the rules and models. I have 3 home built ones, and have been eyeing the official models too - though I think 3 should be enough, really. My costs for building mine were maybe $10, I used Pomegranate drink bottles (delicious) and hot glue/Tyranid bits. I am content with them, but they are not as cool as the official models.
I keep thinking of new and fun ways to drop in units - I think that the pods really add versatility to the army. So many slow units can have their drawbacks mitigated. And... It's fluffy!
I agree. 3 seem to be about the most you would want in a game. I actually have 4 with 2 official kits (one unbuilt), and 2 homebuilt conversion out of plastic pinapples that people seem to think look cooler than the actual kit.
Playing a guardian host footdar list left me feeling that I needed a CAD for ObSec. The list has dakka a plenty, reserve manipulation, six warp charge, lots of potential AP2 shots. It has obvious answers for quad flyrants ... my five vs their four.
I predict that my Eldar should be very good against Nids but you never know. Maelstorm missions can be a bi**h when you draw badly. I do feel more comfortable running this against Nids than footdar though ( although I think we will see footdar competing at tournaments and doing well).
Eldar with Dark Eldar Allies: The main reasons for combining Eldar with Dark Eldar are twofold. First is as a delivery system for Wraithguards with D-scythes. You will see the Webway Portal as well as D-scythe Wraithguards in this type of list. The second is for Leadership-bomb shenanigans, which I will not go into in this tactica. Basically, this type of list is possibly more of a Dark Eldar build with Eldar allies than it is an Eldar build with Dark Eldar allies. It relies on Leadership-reducing, stackable powers and then various psychic powers (like Psychic Shriek and various Dark Eldar powers) to either kill off your opponents or to make them break.
Eldar with Dark Eldar Allies: The main reasons for combining Eldar with Dark Eldar are twofold. First is as a delivery system for Wraithguards with D-scythes. You will see the Webway Portal as well as D-scythe Wraithguards in this type of list. The second is for Leadership-bomb shenanigans, which I will not go into in this tactica. Basically, this type of list is possibly more of a Dark Eldar build with Eldar allies than it is an Eldar build with Dark Eldar allies. It relies on Leadership-reducing, stackable powers and then various psychic powers (like Psychic Shriek and various Dark Eldar powers) to either kill off your opponents or to make them break.
Eldar with Dark Eldar Allies: The main reasons for combining Eldar with Dark Eldar are twofold. First is as a delivery system for Wraithguards with D-scythes. You will see the Webway Portal as well as D-scythe Wraithguards in this type of list. The second is for Leadership-bomb shenanigans, which I will not go into in this tactica. Basically, this type of list is possibly more of a Dark Eldar build with Eldar allies than it is an Eldar build with Dark Eldar allies. It relies on Leadership-reducing, stackable powers and then various psychic powers (like Psychic Shriek and various Dark Eldar powers) to either kill off your opponents or to make them break.
Eldar with Dark Eldar Allies: The main reasons for combining Eldar with Dark Eldar are twofold. First is as a delivery system for Wraithguards with D-scythes. You will see the Webway Portal as well as D-scythe Wraithguards in this type of list. The second is for Leadership-bomb shenanigans, which I will not go into in this tactica. Basically, this type of list is possibly more of a Dark Eldar build with Eldar allies than it is an Eldar build with Dark Eldar allies. It relies on Leadership-reducing, stackable powers and then various psychic powers (like Psychic Shriek and various Dark Eldar powers) to either kill off your opponents or to make them break.
Dark Eldar Allies:
Succubus - Webway Portal, Glaive
5 Warriors
Venom (Note - this is a Fast Attack choice)
This list needs a raider not a venom, you can't fit those 5 wraithguard in a venom....
I don't think the Guard go in there. I think the Warriors do, while a Succubus portals one DScythe unit in.
Red Corsair is correct. The venom (now raider) is actually a Fast Attack and as such, it has the flexibility of allowing either the WG or warriors to start off on it.
felixcat wrote: I just read it JY2. Nice. I'm about to test my second game against Nids tonight. I'll be playing this:
Playing a guardian host footdar list left me feeling that I needed a CAD for ObSec. The list has dakka a plenty, reserve manipulation, six warp charge, lots of potential AP2 shots. It has obvious answers for quad flyrants ... my five vs their four.
I predict that my Eldar should be very good against Nids but you never know. Maelstorm missions can be a bi**h when you draw badly. I do feel more comfortable running this against Nids than footdar though ( although I think we will see footdar competing at tournaments and doing well).
So why the shuri-cannons on 2 of the jetbikes? Is it because you want to make it WYSIWYG?
I think that you will find this type of list very effective. There are just so many ways to build a good Eldar list, but running ObSec windrider jetbikes is probably some of the best. This list should do pretty well, even against flyrant-spam. Good luck.
I have those shuri-cannons on the off chance I need the extra AP2 shots. I'm not thrilled with the range but meh ... it is insurance.
As for the game ... the hemlocks, I feel they underperformed for damage but they are great for psychic powers if you don't get denied. Casting invisibility/shrouding is a great boon. Against Nids I don't know that they are ideal desopite the d-weapons that can target FMCs. You do need to get the range on the FMCs.I think hemlocks need better targets for invisibility - maybe one skyraunner farseer and banshee mask autarch in a decent squad of reavers. I did not have that type of unit. If I redo the list those hemlocks and warwalkers will be this ...
2 Vypers: dual shuriken cannon
3 Vypers: eml
2x 3 Warwalkers: dual scatterlasers
I confess I missed them from my first game. Both the scat walkers and vypers are top performers. Especially as you can outflank those walkers and be in range of anything.
As for the game. I played against a modified lictor list with mawlocs this time. Still four Flyrants and the usual troops. I ended up losing a close match ... he got first blood - linebreaker - killed two of my hunters - destroyed my bikes with devs and shrieks. It was actually fairly close until turn five. I did manage to kill two flyrants and almost downed a third (it had one wound left on turn six).
ObSec troops are nice but those troops are soo fragile. LD is a big issue. Also the cards I drew for maelstorm just did not fall into place so even though I led early on points he caught up fast. He also used fighter ace on his warlord - just a b***h.
My impressions are that a good Nid player can compwete even against a list stacked with anti-flyer. His mawlocs took out two bike squads. His lictors flesh hooks were surprisingly effective and lictors can reposition so well.
Now, bear in mind I'm a good casual player - not a hardened tournament one. Even when I attend tournaments I play lists I enjoy - not necessarily top tier. That said I do know how to capitalize on mistakes and those Nids had game against my list.
I use Deathleaper sometimes in my beer&pretzels list. And I really miss his old 'Where did it go?' rule, would be gold to have a blinking Deathleaper claiming Maelstrom objectives all night. As it currently stands, once you commit any kind of Lictor to the table, they aren't really going places.
Leviathan gives you access to three Flyrants. Tyrannocytes are good,but Flyrants are one of the top ten units in the game at the minute and being able to take more is always a bonus, particularly when most tournaments disallow double CAD.
They're so good people just take the Hive Fleet Detachment for three of them (with three Mucolids for troops) and spend the rest on the other faction.
Pretty much that. If we were still stuck taking the two CAD tyrants and an allied tyrant, then drop podded things like fexes and Dima's bore some consideration if you werent going the Skyblight route. Whats better than drop podding a fex or a dima? Another Tyrant.
But for newbs like me that dont want to Flyrant spam, a few Tyrannocytes worth it then in terms of adding mobility, backfield pressure and army dynamics?
Monetary cost is the main issue here. Is it a case of "go many or go home"?
Ratius wrote: But for newbs like me that dont want to Flyrant spam, a few Tyrannocytes worth it then in terms of adding mobility, backfield pressure and army dynamics?
Monetary cost is the main issue here. Is it a case of "go many or go home"?
Tyrannocyte are a great addition to the army. They allow you to place any unit you like where you want it. The main issue with a lot of our units where they got shot to death before the could get to where you want them. Now that's not a issue. I personally run 2 or 3 all the time now. While Flyrants are very good. They are boing to play with just them. I run no more then 3. I then fill up my army with other tools that the Flyrants can't take care of.
Over all Tyrannocyte are golden when used with a army that gives your opponent a lot of threats to deal with.
A ADL with com's help a lot with reserves to make them all come in together.
Ratius wrote: But for newbs like me that dont want to Flyrant spam, a few Tyrannocytes worth it then in terms of adding mobility, backfield pressure and army dynamics? Monetary cost is the main issue here. Is it a case of "go many or go home"?
Tyrannocyte are a great addition to the army. They allow you to place any unit you like where you want it. The main issue with a lot of our units where they got shot to death before the could get to where you want them. Now that's not a issue. I personally run 2 or 3 all the time now. While Flyrants are very good. They are boing to play with just them. I run no more then 3. I then fill up my army with other tools that the Flyrants can't take care of.
Over all Tyrannocyte are golden when used with a army that gives your opponent a lot of threats to deal with.
A ADL with com's help a lot with reserves to make them all come in together.
I'm not entirely sure where all of this hate on Tyrannocytes is coming from... I have found them to be solid gold. The ability to precisely position an MC is very valuable, and also allows you to place a very durable unit on an objective in Maelstrom to claim it for your own, or to deliver our close range firepower more effectively. I also cap myself at 3 Flyrants, but I believe that is the best number to take in order to have an ideal amount of ground support. After all, Maelstrom missions are becoming more and more commonly used, and so I need some boots on the ground as well as my beloved air support.
I have been running 4 or 5 tyranocytes with dakkafexes and 20 devilgants in them with 2 Flyrants. It has been a lot of fun and hits really hard on that turn they all come in. I also don't have too difficult of a time with malestorm because my ground force is pretty durable.
Tyrannocytes are good, but not great in the way that Flyrants, Malanthropes, and Barbed Heirodules are. The reasons are simple:
1) ITC aka the largest group of tournaments nerfed Tyrannocyte shooting lowering their effectiveness as a supporting fire unit at many events.
2) They are a little pricey for what they bring.
3) There is a limit to 1 MC. So you can't bring a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard, or a pair of Dakkafexes.
4) Tyranids don't have a good way to modify reserve rolls (The Swarmlord modifies them, but is so overcosted that calling it "good" is a stretch).
5) TMC's and gribbles die pretty easily because of their lack of Toughness and armor saves compared to similar units in other armies. Tyranids make up for this via the shrouded bubble offered by the Venomthrope or Malanthrope, and it doesn't help out in this case resulting in many Tyrannocyte packages being killed on the turn they arrive.
6) Hive commander is a cheaper way to get gants or warriors into the backfield.
7) The model is terrible. Too big. Too Unwieldy. Too stupid looking.
It is a good unit. I use them in games, and they are quite good. I've taken them to tournaments, and won with them. If you don't like to run pure flyrant spam or a Barbed Heirodule, having a Tyrannocyte or two in your list can be a big help.
Have no idea how to improve it though. Missions would be one objective in each deployment zone and Relic (mandatory First Blood, StW, Linebreaker) 
Will this be enough to push Decurians off of objectives? 
Who wouldn't struggle? Drop Pod Marines? That is just a poor match, and no amount of fixing can change that. 
). In such battles, I actually think Tyranids have the upper-hand unless the Tau player incorporates more skyfire into his list. Skyrays are great for this because they are dual-purposed units. They are great against flyer-spam but they are also decent as support units, especially after they "blow their loads".
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