Gamerely wrote: Something I found irritating in other threads were just... the sour grapes from other people. "Ugh Tyranid codex is the weakest codex in the game, he only won because he cheesed. That's not a legit win." Come on man. Not like he didn't play against an Eldar running like 5 wave serpents. "Ugh I wish people played their armies like they're supposed to in the fluff." Peeps are lame. *on a completely different forum*
Que the bandwagoners moving from Eldar to Tyranids w/ added Leviathan.
Therion wrote: So, based on the success and hype behind Flyrants, is everybody now going to 'Come the Apocalypse' ally the Tyranid Leviathan detachment with 3 Flyrants into their force, like Justin Cook did with his Tau? Eldar are bringing Hive Tyrants next?
In the same way that a lot of armies are adding in SummonSeers with min Jetbikes as come the apocalypse allies, yes a lot of people are adding in 3 Flyrants and 3 Mucoloids.
You can't just add levi to a list And expect it to be alot better. I tried that with my eldar, lost 4 games, and went right back to single cad for lvo. What you can do however is make the 3 flyrants the core of your list and build around it. like Alan and cook did.
I love the solo Hive guard. I have been debating taking one or 2 in my list and run a few less lictors. It's apples and oranges though. It depends on what you expect the meta to be
I am going 4 lictors, one solo Hive guard. I think they have fantastic synergy.
I tried to get hI'm to run 4 flyrants, but he wouldn't listen
Guess he didn't need to though he played a hell of an event, besides nick, cook and myself, there's no one else I was rooting for.more
The list look surprisingly similar to one I altered from here and that winning list.
-The big difference I see is that I went 1 more Flyrant and didn't go as all in as he did in the Lictor + Mawloc spam.
-I love the Lictors and what they bring to the Maelstrom missions and just acting as disruption.
-The Mawloc is great too but I don't think I'll ever run 3. I might go up to 2 to test out but it's too unreliable for me to go all in with it. (Personal preference, obviously someone can play it to a very high level)
-In place of the Mawlocs and extra Lictors I opt for another Flyrant + Dakkafex in a Pod. I like the immediate threat of the Dakkafex and the Pod is annoying haha The Flyrant is just more awesome-sauce.
2-0 with it so far but my opponent knew it was a bad matchup for him and was just giving me a chance to test the list and for him to test against in. Going to test it against DE or Eldar and other armies on Friday. Hopefully against Chaos Daemon summing and see what all the hubub is about. That and Tau are my more feared matchups but I haven't played them yet.
I tried to get hI'm to run 4 flyrants, but he wouldn't listen
Guess he didn't need to though he played a hell of an event, besides nick, cook and myself, there's no one else I was rooting for.more
The list look surprisingly similar to one I altered from here and that winning list.
-The big difference I see is that I went 1 more Flyrant and didn't go as all in as he did in the Lictor + Mawloc spam.
-I love the Lictors and what they bring to the Maelstrom missions and just acting as disruption.
-The Mawloc is great too but I don't think I'll ever run 3. I might go up to 2 to test out but it's too unreliable for me to go all in with it. (Personal preference, obviously someone can play it to a very high level)
-In place of the Mawlocs and extra Lictors I opt for another Flyrant + Dakkafex in a Pod. I like the immediate threat of the Dakkafex and the Pod is annoying haha The Flyrant is just more awesome-sauce.
2-0 with it so far but my opponent knew it was a bad matchup for him and was just giving me a chance to test the list and for him to test against in. Going to test it against DE or Eldar and other armies on Friday. Hopefully against Chaos Daemon summing and see what all the hubub is about. That and Tau are my more feared matchups but I haven't played them yet.
My biggest issue with a dakkafex in a pod is that it costs as much as a flyrant while being less survivable and less mobile, while offering limited extra utility beyond strength 9.
997Turbo wrote: Solo hive guard wouldn't be a bad choice if they didn't require synapse baby sitting
Eh in the levi cad it rerolls it's ins behavior, and I have a malenthrope in my list I can keep close if I need too. I can use it to force annoying things like venoms and Jetbikes to reconsider where they move. I can hide it, and because you don't need Los it can snipe out stupid single units or models the flyrants fail to finish off (You know how much of a pain it is to waste a flyrant on a tac marine). Also gets a save vs sms which is huge and the str 8 can install gib things like suits.
997Turbo wrote: Solo hive guard wouldn't be a bad choice if they didn't require synapse baby sitting
Eh in the levi cad it rerolls it's ins behavior, and I have a malenthrope in my list I can keep close if I need too. I can use it to force annoying things like venoms and Jetbikes to reconsider where they move. I can hide it, and because you don't need Los it can snipe out stupid single units or models the flyrants fail to finish off (You know how much of a pain it is to waste a flyrant on a tac marine). Also gets a save vs sms which is huge and the str 8 can install gib things like suits.
Good point about the Leviathan CAD. If the other choice is just a lictor going to ground on a backfield obj then could be a good call. Not to mention Wave serpents love flying behind flyrants and then turning to shoot them. Two str 8 ignores cover shots to AV 10 could be a strong deterrent...
997Turbo wrote: Solo hive guard wouldn't be a bad choice if they didn't require synapse baby sitting
Eh in the levi cad it rerolls it's ins behavior, and I have a malenthrope in my list I can keep close if I need too. I can use it to force annoying things like venoms and Jetbikes to reconsider where they move. I can hide it, and because you don't need Los it can snipe out stupid single units or models the flyrants fail to finish off (You know how much of a pain it is to waste a flyrant on a tac marine). Also gets a save vs sms which is huge and the str 8 can install gib things like suits.
Good point about the Leviathan CAD. If the other choice is just a lictor going to ground on a backfield obj then could be a good call. Not to mention Wave serpents love flying behind flyrants and then turning to shoot them. Two str 8 ignores cover shots to AV 10 could be a strong deterrent...
Exactly, it needs testing for sure, but it's something I'm going to play around with and see if it has legs.
As for the tyrant guard, I was just talking to sean about it and I totally get why he took them. I might try one of those out as well, but I'm really interested in trying the solo Hive guard first.
Automatically Appended Next Post: All I have to do is drop a lictor and a spore mine (make one unit 5 strong ) for a hive guard
997Turbo wrote: Solo hive guard wouldn't be a bad choice if they didn't require synapse baby sitting
Eh in the levi cad it rerolls it's ins behavior, and I have a malenthrope in my list I can keep close if I need too. I can use it to force annoying things like venoms and Jetbikes to reconsider where they move. I can hide it, and because you don't need Los it can snipe out stupid single units or models the flyrants fail to finish off (You know how much of a pain it is to waste a flyrant on a tac marine). Also gets a save vs sms which is huge and the str 8 can install gib things like suits.
Good point about the Leviathan CAD. If the other choice is just a lictor going to ground on a backfield obj then could be a good call. Not to mention Wave serpents love flying behind flyrants and then turning to shoot them. Two str 8 ignores cover shots to AV 10 could be a strong deterrent...
Exactly, it needs testing for sure, but it's something I'm going to play around with and see if it has legs.
As for the tyrant guard, I was just talking to sean about it and I totally get why he took them. I might try one of those out as well, but I'm really interested in trying the solo Hive guard first.
I'm assuming he used them to assault contesting min units like jetbikes, nurglings, etc? If they had adrenal then hes doubling out rippers and Nurgling bases.
997Turbo wrote: Solo hive guard wouldn't be a bad choice if they didn't require synapse baby sitting
Eh in the levi cad it rerolls it's ins behavior, and I have a malenthrope in my list I can keep close if I need too. I can use it to force annoying things like venoms and Jetbikes to reconsider where they move. I can hide it, and because you don't need Los it can snipe out stupid single units or models the flyrants fail to finish off (You know how much of a pain it is to waste a flyrant on a tac marine). Also gets a save vs sms which is huge and the str 8 can install gib things like suits.
Good point about the Leviathan CAD. If the other choice is just a lictor going to ground on a backfield obj then could be a good call. Not to mention Wave serpents love flying behind flyrants and then turning to shoot them. Two str 8 ignores cover shots to AV 10 could be a strong deterrent...
Exactly, it needs testing for sure, but it's something I'm going to play around with and see if it has legs.
As for the tyrant guard, I was just talking to sean about it and I totally get why he took them. I might try one of those out as well, but I'm really interested in trying the solo Hive guard first.
I'm assuming he used them to assault contesting min units like jetbikes, nurglings, etc? If they had adrenal then hes doubling out rippers and Nurgling bases.
Deck chairing objectives, fighting stupid weak stuff in combat, and in a pinch you can join them to a hive tyrant and get them some extra wounds.
I tried to get hI'm to run 4 flyrants, but he wouldn't listen Guess he didn't need to though he played a hell of an event, besides nick, cook and myself, there's no one else I was rooting for.more
The list look surprisingly similar to one I altered from here and that winning list.
-The big difference I see is that I went 1 more Flyrant and didn't go as all in as he did in the Lictor + Mawloc spam. -I love the Lictors and what they bring to the Maelstrom missions and just acting as disruption. -The Mawloc is great too but I don't think I'll ever run 3. I might go up to 2 to test out but it's too unreliable for me to go all in with it. (Personal preference, obviously someone can play it to a very high level) -In place of the Mawlocs and extra Lictors I opt for another Flyrant + Dakkafex in a Pod. I like the immediate threat of the Dakkafex and the Pod is annoying haha The Flyrant is just more awesome-sauce.
2-0 with it so far but my opponent knew it was a bad matchup for him and was just giving me a chance to test the list and for him to test against in. Going to test it against DE or Eldar and other armies on Friday. Hopefully against Chaos Daemon summing and see what all the hubub is about. That and Tau are my more feared matchups but I haven't played them yet.
My biggest issue with a dakkafex in a pod is that it costs as much as a flyrant while being less survivable and less mobile, while offering limited extra utility beyond strength 9.
Def costs wise is similar, but in the end you can just compare everything to a Flyrant and say its not = to it's survivability etc. The Fex is on the ground for Maelstrom missions contesting or capturing, instant shooting when it drops (great behind a WS), Drop Pod is annoying and another target they have to clear off objs etc. It brings a good amount of support and functionality. Kind of the same as a Mawloc except a bit more predictable.
Either way. I'm going to test it some more this Friday to get more clarity.
Mawlocs are actually a huge part of the synergy with lictors. You want to use their homing beacons. Much of the time, lictors are just going to go to ground so that you can synapse pop them back up the next turn and bring the Mawloc down where you want to. This is especially great when your lictors can Hit and Run 3d6 out of combat at I6, allowing them to hugely reposition an incoming Mawloc blast. That wound up killing Mephiston in the grand finals
The reason why the Tyrant Guard and Hive Guard are good for these lists is because they are so cheap per T6 wound, even more so than the Mawloc. The tyrant guard are no slouches in combat either with fleet, 3 base str 5 WS 5 attacks. The basic idea is to make your 150 point unit shoot at a 50 point unit, and have a heck of a time killing it. The hive guard sacrifices a lot of cc killing power for a few shots at range. Ironically, in a meta predominated by shooting, Sean won because he took a ton of above average combat units meant to maul MEQ, or at least win combat (usually chasing down at I6). Warms my heart that lictors can still hunt at the highest level
Mawlocs just become one of, if not THE most cost efficient unit in the dex when you have Lictors on the field. Their blast hits like a truck and consistently, they are tied for the cheapest T6 wounds in the dex, and point for point they hit about as hard in CC as Trygons do. That being said, your list may be lacking something a bit more focused than the Mawlocs (usually AT or something to hit in the ruins) so only taking 2 is fine if the trade off is worth it.
Gamerely wrote: Something I found irritating in other threads were just... the sour grapes from other people. "Ugh Tyranid codex is the weakest codex in the game, he only won because he cheesed. That's not a legit win." Come on man. Not like he didn't play against an Eldar running like 5 wave serpents. "Ugh I wish people played their armies like they're supposed to in the fluff." Peeps are lame. *on a completely different forum*
Really? Because that is just pathetic. Seans list is one of the least cheesy builds I've seen, he just uses a good combination of units, I don't understand how this is cheese as opposed to spamming flyers or skimmers or some crap similar, like what is the definition for cheese anymore, is it just anything that wins that isn't your own army?
SHUPPET wrote: So that's twice now. I can't wait for the frantic explanations about how 5 Tyrant is still the most competitive list in our dex tho
I think everyone but JY2 will now agree to that fact! I have never used 5 Flyrants, I never will. 3 seems like the perfect number.
I think at this point Jy2's stance on Flyrants is cemented lol I don't think that any amount of results will convince him otherwise, but perhaps we can stop seeing it paraded as the "hands down" best way to play Nids, because there is nothing hands down about it. It's a strong competitor, just a debatable choice to something a bit more balanced.
5 Flyrants gives up support units. No doubt about it. Turns out that in some cases, it's better to have that support. I don't think many people questioned it. The thing I'll be experimenting with is if four Flyrants is the sweet spot or not
I think the last time I saw this conversation go down, the opinion was pretty clearly stated that 5-Flyrant is the best competitive build, and while LAN and Lictors are good they just aren't on it's level. I think it's time to dispel that, 5 Flyrants trades a lot for the support offered by a ground nids army be it LAN or something else. Unless you feel otherwise?
I think a lot of the discussion on the 3-5 Flyrants depends on the player to be honest. A mid-level player might be better off with a 5 Flyrant army, as it requires less finesse and experience then say 3 Flyrants and more balanced build. Five flyrants has a higher floor lower ceiling while a more balanced build is the opposite IMO.
I'm still not sold on Living Artillery as a competitive option. What do you shoot at when you have 3 wraithknights and 5 serpents? Or when there is a Lynx on a Skyshield? Or adlance? Do you pump shots into grav cents? White scar bikers? Or do you just pump shots into MEQ and hope they fail 3+? Although Exocrines will almost always have viable targets (albeit likely not range as with 6" move and only 24" range they will be maneuvered around). The meta simply isn't kind to them. And warriors can't go to ground due to being synapse (nor do they have stealth) so they're sitting on a 4+ or die in cover vs str 8+ without a redundant Malanthrope sitting nearby. I just see too many bad matchups and few good matchups.
That being said, the equation changes a bit if you're using Barbie as a ranged can opener, but I still think it's somewhat subpar (in the context of top tier units). LAN, that is. Barbie is spectacular.
To be clear, I think that 5 Flyrants is over the top. You're looking at a 1200 point deathstar essentially. I mean yes, it's actually 5 units not one. But it all does the same thing (even if that thing is 5 different places at once and has great flexibility). But the games that I've had with 4 Flyrants were won in the end because my MSU had a suffocating hold on the objectives. Did the Flyrants get them to that position? Absolutely. However, without those units in enough quantity, the list loses end game ground presence. Definitely still looking forward to Jim's battle reports
Automatically Appended Next Post:
997Turbo wrote: I think a lot of the discussion on the 3-5 Flyrants depends on the player to be honest. A mid-level player might be better off with a 5 Flyrant army, as it requires less finesse and experience then say 3 Flyrants and more balanced build. Five flyrants has a higher floor lower ceiling while a more balanced build is the opposite IMO.
I tend to agree with that statement; however Jim is a spectacular general. Does he feel that he was limited by the list? We'll have to see. But I can also say that many people thought "hey I'll take leviathan allies and win" and that was clearly not the case, judging by the statistics. It definitely does take some getting used to in terms of the limits and capabilities of the Flyrants
luke1705 wrote: I'm still not sold on Living Artillery as a competitive option. What do you shoot at when you have 3 wraithknights and 5 serpents? Or when there is a Lynx on a Skyshield? Or adlance? Do you pump shots into grav cents? White scar bikers? Or do you just pump shots into MEQ and hope they fail 3+? Although Exocrines will almost always have viable targets (albeit likely not range as with 6" move and only 24" range they will be maneuvered around). The meta simply isn't kind to them. And warriors can't go to ground due to being synapse (nor do they have stealth) so they're sitting on a 4+ or die in cover vs str 8+ without a redundant Malanthrope sitting nearby. I just see too many bad matchups and few good matchups.
That being said, the equation changes a bit if you're using Barbie as a ranged can opener, but I still think it's somewhat subpar (in the context of top tier units). LAN, that is. Barbie is spectacular.
To be clear, I think that 5 Flyrants is over the top. You're looking at a 1200 point deathstar essentially. I mean yes, it's actually 5 units not one. But it all does the same thing (even if that thing is 5 different places at once and has great flexibility). But the games that I've had with 4 Flyrants were won in the end because my MSU had a suffocating hold on the objectives. Did the Flyrants get them to that position? Absolutely. However, without those units in enough quantity, the list loses end game ground presence. Definitely still looking forward to Jim's battle reports
Automatically Appended Next Post:
997Turbo wrote: I think a lot of the discussion on the 3-5 Flyrants depends on the player to be honest. A mid-level player might be better off with a 5 Flyrant army, as it requires less finesse and experience then say 3 Flyrants and more balanced build. Five flyrants has a higher floor lower ceiling while a more balanced build is the opposite IMO.
I tend to agree with that statement; however Jim is a spectacular general. Does he feel that he was limited by the list? We'll have to see. But I can also say that many people thought "hey I'll take leviathan allies and win" and that was clearly not the case, judging by the statistics. It definitely does take some getting used to in terms of the limits and capabilities of the Flyrants
I think LAN was a solid choice in 6th when troops were the only thing that could cap objectives and Tyranids were more restricted in the way army construction functioned. Biovores were great at reaching out and killing cultists and 5 man dire avengers that needed to get out of transports to score. The change in the use of troops and the warrior tax is just too much for it to be competitive.
I agree that JY2 's batreps reports will be very telling about the 5 Flyrants, as I saw him post that he played over 10 games this weekend with it. I'm not sure it is the lack of MSU that is the issue, as he had 3 lictors and two rippers squads. That is five very mobile and survivable units. The issue is that Flyrants really struggle at killing certain things, and by taking five you are relying on them for all of your offense. With four Flyrants you can take say, 3 Mawlocs and still have plenty of points for MSU.
997Turbo wrote: I think a lot of the discussion on the 3-5 Flyrants depends on the player to be honest. A mid-level player might be better off with a 5 Flyrant army, as it requires less finesse and experience then say 3 Flyrants and more balanced build. Five flyrants has a higher floor lower ceiling while a more balanced build is the opposite IMO.
5 Flyrants remind me of DE last edition, superfast mobility with a ton of Dakka attached to it. It's a really cool fun list.
I think LAN was a solid choice in 6th when troops were the only thing that could cap objectives and Tyranids were more restricted in the way army construction functioned.
I think LAN was crazy worse in 6th before MOA basically gave it an autowin in 1 out of every 3 games against ALOT (not all, but most) lists. It's not the crux of the list and still performs excellently without it, but man does it make a lot of games a complete steamroll. Ground Nids was barely seen in 6th, that was a time when Skyblight was dominant and almost everyone was running it
I love LAN and even I wasn't playing it in 6th, I was just using Mawlocs Lictors and Flyrants lol
Hey everybody. We're back! Haha. Was a blast at LVO this weekend. Sitting at the airport now ready to fly back east. Played a ton of great games against great guys: John, Sean, Nick, Chris, Jim(jy2), Johnpaul, Nick, Tyler, and Nick again. Took some pics in early games and then as things got tighter and tighter kinda left camera in the wayside. But I'll try to get some reports up at some point. At least for the two biggest games I was on twitch so I barely even bothered with pics then. Interested in watching them on replay to see how it looked and sounded from the outside( always worried I might sound like an idiot or say something dumb or go on a swearing spree and I think my mom was tuning in at some point haha).
I highly recommend anyone thinking of attending LVO next year or any of Reece and front lines events. I heard they are running the event in Austin at the revitalized wargamescon so anyone thinking of going to events look for that.
As always any questions or flattery is appreciated. We don't play for the money but for the praise lol.... People kept asking if we were playing for lots of money and were confused when we said no haha. Though the top itc guy got a healthy check so I might have to look into some more itc events this year.
Apparently I'm not allowed to call it #lictorshame anymore according to Geoff(incontrol) so might have to think up a new name.
OrdoSean wrote: Hey everybody. We're back! Haha. Was a blast at LVO this weekend. Sitting at the airport now ready to fly back east. Played a ton of great games against great guys: John, Sean, Nick, Chris, Jim(jy2), Johnpaul, Nick, Tyler, and Nick again. Took some pics in early games and then as things got tighter and tighter kinda left camera in the wayside. But I'll try to get some reports up at some point. At least for the two biggest games I was on twitch so I barely even bothered with pics then. Interested in watching them on replay to see how it looked and sounded from the outside( always worried I might sound like an idiot or say something dumb or go on a swearing spree and I think my mom was tuning in at some point haha).
I highly recommend anyone thinking of attending LVO next year or any of Reece and front lines events. I heard they are running the event in Austin at the revitalized wargamescon so anyone thinking of going to events look for that.
As always any questions or flattery is appreciated. We don't play for the money but for the praise lol.... People kept asking if we were playing for lots of money and were confused when we said no haha. Though the top itc guy got a healthy check so I might have to look into some more itc events this year.
Apparently I'm not allowed to call it #lictorshame anymore according to Geoff(incontrol) so might have to think up a new name.
'Grats mate, I was keeping up to date with the results from this side of the pond, in between having a few bad games with my Nids in a tournament. I think it's high time I shook things up with my lists, and tried out a few different builds. Look forward to your reports!
OrdoSean wrote: Hey everybody. We're back! Haha. Was a blast at LVO this weekend. Sitting at the airport now ready to fly back east. Played a ton of great games against great guys: John, Sean, Nick, Chris, Jim(jy2), Johnpaul, Nick, Tyler, and Nick again. Took some pics in early games and then as things got tighter and tighter kinda left camera in the wayside. But I'll try to get some reports up at some point. At least for the two biggest games I was on twitch so I barely even bothered with pics then. Interested in watching them on replay to see how it looked and sounded from the outside( always worried I might sound like an idiot or say something dumb or go on a swearing spree and I think my mom was tuning in at some point haha).
I highly recommend anyone thinking of attending LVO next year or any of Reece and front lines events. I heard they are running the event in Austin at the revitalized wargamescon so anyone thinking of going to events look for that.
As always any questions or flattery is appreciated. We don't play for the money but for the praise lol.... People kept asking if we were playing for lots of money and were confused when we said no haha. Though the top itc guy got a healthy check so I might have to look into some more itc events this year.
Apparently I'm not allowed to call it #lictorshame anymore according to Geoff(incontrol) so might have to think up a new name.
Congrats man! ;D can't wait to read the batreps and see the videos myself!
On the side note, I've been calling the army builder names of my lists with 5+ lictors and 2+ mawlocs "LicLoc"
Been naming them all that since I saw your list for the first time
Thanks to the new GWFAQ, and LVO's interpretation, Farsight Bomb will no longer be able to infiltrate into easy alphastrike range on turn 1 via shadowsun.
Also, They won't be guaranteeing 2+ cover saves on 1st turn if we do get the alpha strike.
Where is this GWFAQ that limits Farsight Bombs infiltrate? I can't find it?
Where is the FAQ for the 2+ cover save thing too? Google-fu... weak...
tetrisphreak wrote: FAQ for the main rulebook - the updated text disallows ICs with infiltrate from joining non-infiltrators in deployment, and vice-versa.
Really? Because that is just pathetic. Seans list is one of the least cheesy builds I've seen, he just uses a good combination of units, I don't understand how this is cheese as opposed to spamming flyers or skimmers or some crap similar, like what is the definition for cheese anymore, is it just anything that wins that isn't your own army?
He is a fantastic player, when he showed me how to use spore mines, I pretty much had an organism. I plan on running a sporefield formation with my eldar at adepticon. With so many good lists out there, and a wide verity of missions being played across different formats, play skill is now more important then it has ever been.
I think everyone but JY2 will now agree to that fact! I have never used 5 Flyrants, I never will. 3 seems like the perfect number.
I think at this point Jy2's stance on Flyrants is cemented lol I don't think that any amount of results will convince him otherwise, but perhaps we can stop seeing it paraded as the "hands down" best way to play Nids, because there is nothing hands down about it. It's a strong competitor, just a debatable choice to something a bit more balanced.
He is a really solid player, I just think in the age of malestrom, the 5 flyrant list just doesn't have the legs to run thought a 6-9 round event. Our game was very close, but I have zero anti air, and I played him in kps. Had it been missions I honestly dont think it would have been as close.
That said, everyone said lictor shame couldn't work, and look where we are now.
Besides, although Sean may or may not be able to call it Lictor shame since it is the crux of a multiple GT winning army comp, it doesn't matter. He'll just find another unit/army. Next up:
He is a fantastic player, when he showed me how to use spore mines, I pretty much had an organism. I plan on running a sporefield formation with my eldar at adepticon. With so many good lists out there, and a wide verity of missions being played across different formats, play skill is now more important then it has ever been.
What is the theory / method behind spore mines? I still haven't really seen it explained by anyone
That said, everyone said lictor shame couldn't work, and look where we are now.
People can be quite close minded to anything that doesn't involve spamming the perceived strongest unit in the dex. But in the hands of a good player, good balance will always win out in the end in total victorys IMO. It's not hard to get a win against a lot of lists with 5 flyrants, a lot of lists just fold to it, but it also has a lot of bad match ups oh its own, and a properly balanced list with tools for each situation and it just comes down to who the better player is, judging which units will be the more important ones for winning the game and deploying accordingly. This is something that I believe Seans list gives him the tools to do, and allows the better skilled player to win out in a lot of match ups, which is the best thing to rely on, your own skill, instead of just a positive match up.
1) because they don't actually give anything up when you kill them, you can run a Bunch of units of mines and mucloids, start them on the table to man your coms and prevent yourself from getting tabled or giving up fb or kps to your opponent. Which is a huge deal the ultimate alpha strike counter.
2) great at movement blocking, and killing silly weak units (spore mines for movement blocking, mucloids for killing weak units)
3) they can eat over watch, and just generally be a pain in the ass. They have enormous potential with no real downside.
My first few games of 7th edition were at LVO this weekend and I did alright with a 3-3 record. 2 key tactical mistakes from inexperience cost me 2 games.
I ran the bio blast formation all in tyranocytes with a pair of flyrants and a trygon prime with 2 mucolid spores. I am looking forward to my modified list with 2 flyrants, swarmlord, malanthrope, 3 mucolid spores, and 4 dakka fexes with 5 tyranocytes. The tyranocytes and fexes lay down a lot of fire and can claim objectives while the flyrants go around causing problems for people. I'm just trying to decide if 4 fexes or 3 fexes and 3 zoanthropes would be better.
OrdoSean wrote: Hey everybody. We're back! Haha. Was a blast at LVO this weekend. Sitting at the airport now ready to fly back east. Played a ton of great games against great guys: John, Sean, Nick, Chris, Jim(jy2), Johnpaul, Nick, Tyler, and Nick again. Took some pics in early games and then as things got tighter and tighter kinda left camera in the wayside. But I'll try to get some reports up at some point. At least for the two biggest games I was on twitch so I barely even bothered with pics then. Interested in watching them on replay to see how it looked and sounded from the outside( always worried I might sound like an idiot or say something dumb or go on a swearing spree and I think my mom was tuning in at some point haha).
I highly recommend anyone thinking of attending LVO next year or any of Reece and front lines events. I heard they are running the event in Austin at the revitalized wargamescon so anyone thinking of going to events look for that.
As always any questions or flattery is appreciated. We don't play for the money but for the praise lol.... People kept asking if we were playing for lots of money and were confused when we said no haha. Though the top itc guy got a healthy check so I might have to look into some more itc events this year.
Apparently I'm not allowed to call it #lictorshame anymore according to Geoff(incontrol) so might have to think up a new name.
I'm guessing it's already been covered in this thread, but I played against Tyranids for the first time since 7th edition came out; 2000pts, my Eldar and Blood Angels against his Tyranids.
What surprised me was the sheer amount of firepower out out by large and inexpensive units. 30 Termagants went through 5 Terminators, a Captain in Terminator Armour and 90% of a squad of Guardians. The Terminators were gone through two rounds of overwatch following a failed charge attempt (4" - urgh!).
Genestealers fell pretty easily to Bladestorm and a Dreadnought and all of his monstrous creatures were taken out by the third turn.
Through lack of any real knowledge on Tyranids other than one game last night: large squads Termagants shooting anything that moves.
OrdoSean wrote: Hey everybody. We're back! Haha. Was a blast at LVO this weekend. Sitting at the airport now ready to fly back east. Played a ton of great games against great guys: John, Sean, Nick, Chris, Jim(jy2), Johnpaul, Nick, Tyler, and Nick again. Took some pics in early games and then as things got tighter and tighter kinda left camera in the wayside. But I'll try to get some reports up at some point. At least for the two biggest games I was on twitch so I barely even bothered with pics then. Interested in watching them on replay to see how it looked and sounded from the outside( always worried I might sound like an idiot or say something dumb or go on a swearing spree and I think my mom was tuning in at some point haha).
I highly recommend anyone thinking of attending LVO next year or any of Reece and front lines events. I heard they are running the event in Austin at the revitalized wargamescon so anyone thinking of going to events look for that.
As always any questions or flattery is appreciated. We don't play for the money but for the praise lol.... People kept asking if we were playing for lots of money and were confused when we said no haha. Though the top itc guy got a healthy check so I might have to look into some more itc events this year.
Apparently I'm not allowed to call it #lictorshame anymore according to Geoff(incontrol) so might have to think up a new name.
Sean, do you think you could give a quick rundown of your opponents from rounds 1-6? I'm curious to see what your matchups were like. Also, in your practice what matchups did you find were the worst for you? I could see the right Tau build being very troublesome with enough anti air and SMS to easily kill MSU units.
Sean, do you think you could give a quick rundown of your opponents from rounds 1-6? I'm curious to see what your matchups were like. Also, in your practice what matchups did you find were the worst for you? I could see the right Tau build being very troublesome with enough anti air and SMS to easily kill MSU units.
Round 1: Eldar/Dark Eldar - Spiritseer, archon(webway shadowfield, agonizer), 5 dscythe wraithguard, 4 waveserpents, 3 units of dire avengers, 2 wraithknights
Round 2: TSHIFT winner eldar/tau: 4 Wave serpents, mantle jet seer, 4 dire avengers, 2 solo hornets, tau fireblade cadre (2 units of broadsides, riptide), void shield generator
Round 3: blood angels and imperial fists: same list as in the final, cents, 4 units of scouts, centurians, mephiston, librarian, lysander
Round 4: Orks and necrons: 2 weirdboys, warboss with luckystick, 15 boys in a battlewagon, 3 meganobs in truck, 3 mega nobz in truck, 10 boys in truck, mega blasta artillery, canoptex formation (wraiths, scarbs, spyder), gretchin, summoned demons.
Round 5: Jy2 and his Pentyrants: 5 flyrants, 3 lictors, 2 rippers, mawloc, void shield
Round 6: Demons/Tyranids: fateweaver, 2 tzeentch heralds, 2 units of 7 screamers, 11 horrors, 3 nurglings, 3 Flyrants, 3 mucolids
and then demons, eldar, scouts again in the finals. I lost round 3 to Nicks scouts and then we met again in the final round.
Sean, do you think you could give a quick rundown of your opponents from rounds 1-6? I'm curious to see what your matchups were like. Also, in your practice what matchups did you find were the worst for you? I could see the right Tau build being very troublesome with enough anti air and SMS to easily kill MSU units.
Round 1: Eldar/Dark Eldar - Spiritseer, archon(webway shadowfield, agonizer), 5 dscythe wraithguard, 4 waveserpents, 3 units of dire avengers, 2 wraithknights
Round 2: TSHIFT winner eldar/tau: 4 Wave serpents, mantle jet seer, 4 dire avengers, 2 solo hornets, tau fireblade cadre (2 units of broadsides, riptide), void shield generator
Round 3: blood angels and imperial fists: same list as in the final, cents, 4 units of scouts, centurians, mephiston, librarian, lysander
Round 4: Orks and necrons: 2 weirdboys, warboss with luckystick, 15 boys in a battlewagon, 3 meganobs in truck, 3 mega nobz in truck, 10 boys in truck, mega blasta artillery, canoptex formation (wraiths, scarbs, spyder), gretchin, summoned demons.
Round 5: Jy2 and his Pentyrants: 5 flyrants, 3 lictors, 2 rippers, mawloc, void shield
Round 6: Demons/Tyranids: fateweaver, 2 tzeentch heralds, 2 units of 7 screamers, 11 horrors, 3 nurglings, 3 Flyrants, 3 mucolids
and then demons, eldar, scouts again in the finals. I lost round 3 to Nicks scouts and then we met again in the final round.
This guy got a gift in round 2 when they ruled that Shadows in the Warp affected every unit, and not just psychers. It never occurred to me to make that argument, and it blew my mind that judges would agree. When I saw that, I asked Reece if I could use that ruling in my future games, and he had a judges pow-wow, and decided that it was a one game only ruling, and that from then on Shadows only affected Psyker again.
Has anyone ever heard of that reading of shadows:
All enemy units and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership whilst they are within 12 of one or more models with the Shadow in the Warp special rule.
The idea behind the interpretation is an implied seperation between "All enemy units" and "models with the Psyker..." making it apply to both all enemy units, and also all Psyker be they friendly or enemy, so a Tyrant is always at -3 leadership because it is a Psyker and in its own shadows bubble, but a Lord Commissar (despite not being a Psyker ) is only Leadership 7.
This guy got a gift in round 2 when they ruled that Shadows in the Warp affected every unit, and not just psychers. It never occurred to me to make that argument, and it blew my mind that judges would agree. When I saw that, I asked Reece if I could use that ruling in my future games, and he had a judges pow-wow, and decided that it was a one game only ruling, and that from then on Shadows only affected Psyker again.
Has anyone ever heard of that reading of shadows:
All enemy units and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership whilst they are within 12 of one or more models with the Shadow in the Warp special rule.
The idea behind the interpretation is an implied seperation between "All enemy units" and "models with the Psyker..." making it apply to both all enemy units, and also all Psyker be they friendly or enemy, so a Tyrant is always at -3 leadership because it is a Psyker and in its own shadows bubble, but a Lord Commissar (despite not being a Psyker ) is only Leadership 7.
That is possibly the dumbest reading I've ever heard.
And applying it only to one game is even dumber. If you're going to make a call, own it and apply it everywhere.
rigeld2 wrote: And applying it only to one game is even dumber. If you're going to make a call, own it and apply it everywhere.
They sorta tried to fix it. It cost my Tau friend a Game, because on the turn where the ruling came up, a single Psychic Scream killed 2 Riptides, and some drones and suites, which mattered quite a bit in Kill points. As the team captain I complained, and they agreed that If he won out, they would have given him some bonus battle points to make sure he made it into the finals if any one loss players did. He lost his final game, so it was a moot point.
Sean, do you think you could give a quick rundown of your opponents from rounds 1-6? I'm curious to see what your matchups were like. Also, in your practice what matchups did you find were the worst for you? I could see the right Tau build being very troublesome with enough anti air and SMS to easily kill MSU units.
Round 1: Eldar/Dark Eldar - Spiritseer, archon(webway shadowfield, agonizer), 5 dscythe wraithguard, 4 waveserpents, 3 units of dire avengers, 2 wraithknights
Round 2: TSHIFT winner eldar/tau: 4 Wave serpents, mantle jet seer, 4 dire avengers, 2 solo hornets, tau fireblade cadre (2 units of broadsides, riptide), void shield generator
Round 3: blood angels and imperial fists: same list as in the final, cents, 4 units of scouts, centurians, mephiston, librarian, lysander
Round 4: Orks and necrons: 2 weirdboys, warboss with luckystick, 15 boys in a battlewagon, 3 meganobs in truck, 3 mega nobz in truck, 10 boys in truck, mega blasta artillery, canoptex formation (wraiths, scarbs, spyder), gretchin, summoned demons.
Round 5: Jy2 and his Pentyrants: 5 flyrants, 3 lictors, 2 rippers, mawloc, void shield
Round 6: Demons/Tyranids: fateweaver, 2 tzeentch heralds, 2 units of 7 screamers, 11 horrors, 3 nurglings, 3 Flyrants, 3 mucolids
and then demons, eldar, scouts again in the finals. I lost round 3 to Nicks scouts and then we met again in the final round.
This guy got a gift in round 2 when they ruled that Shadows in the Warp affected every unit, and not just psychers. It never occurred to me to make that argument, and it blew my mind that judges would agree. When I saw that, I asked Reece if I could use that ruling in my future games, and he had a judges pow-wow, and decided that it was a one game only ruling, and that from then on Shadows only affected Psyker again.
Has anyone ever heard of that reading of shadows:
All enemy units and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership whilst they are within 12 of one or more models with the Shadow in the Warp special rule.
The idea behind the interpretation is an implied seperation between "All enemy units" and "models with the Psyker..." making it apply to both all enemy units, and also all Psyker be they friendly or enemy, so a Tyrant is always at -3 leadership because it is a Psyker and in its own shadows bubble, but a Lord Commissar (despite not being a Psyker ) is only Leadership 7.
Holy crap that is the hands down stupidest interpretation I've ever seen suggested, let alone let through... WOW, that is one bad judge. If he did one thing all day it should have been kicking that TFG ass interpretation to the curb without a seconds thought. This person should not be judging a game of backyard cricket let alone a competitive event.
Drifting away from LVO - I've always lost to space wolves. Starting with one of my first games back in 40k in 5th edition, I had literally half my army wiped out on turn 1 to Drop Pod Jaws.
I'm not sure why I've always lost, but I broke that streak last night. Played the Relic at 1k points (league game) against a SW list with a Rune Priest on a bike, a bunch of other bikes, and 8 thunderwolves, and a Vindicaire. I had 3 Flyrants, 3 Mucolids, a Carnifex, and a Malanthrope. After rolling poorly for Psychic Powers (Shriek and Horror on all 3 Flyrants - Horror is useless because none of his models can be pinned) I got Infiltrate on my warlord... since we were doing Hammer and Anvil I ended up being able to deploy him in my opponent's back corner.
My turn one I end up nuking an entire bike unit, but not the one with the warlord. His turn one he vrooms up to the Relic and holds it with his Iron Arm/Endurance warlord. Yay. He also charges and pastes my Carnifex.
Fast forward - my turn 5 he's down to his warlord and 2 units of 2 wolves and his vindicaire. I lost one Flyrant to Perils which grounded him, and then a 2 wound shot from the Vindi. He is running his Warlord away from my Flyrants while being nigh invulnerable (T8 and FNP4+ because I haven't been able to deny a damn thing). I kill a unit of wolves with one Flyrant's shooting and land my Warlord near his Priest. He charges my Warlord with his wolves, I ID one of them with Smash and take a wound.
He rolls to see if the game continues - it does. I move Flyrant #2 up and manifest Psychic Scream into the wolf/flyrant combat and roll an 11 - poof goes the wolf. My now free-to-fire Warlord fired into his Rune Priest and rolled amazingly - 6 wounds, he failed 2 armor saves and then failed the 2 FNPs.
This guy got a gift in round 2 when they ruled that Shadows in the Warp affected every unit, and not just psychers. It never occurred to me to make that argument, and it blew my mind that judges would agree. When I saw that, I asked Reece if I could use that ruling in my future games, and he had a judges pow-wow, and decided that it was a one game only ruling, and that from then on Shadows only affected Psyker again.
Has anyone ever heard of that reading of shadows:
All enemy units and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership whilst they are within 12 of one or more models with the Shadow in the Warp special rule.
The idea behind the interpretation is an implied seperation between "All enemy units" and "models with the Psyker..." making it apply to both all enemy units, and also all Psyker be they friendly or enemy, so a Tyrant is always at -3 leadership because it is a Psyker and in its own shadows bubble, but a Lord Commissar (despite not being a Psyker ) is only Leadership 7.
Gah, that is madness! Rules lawyer nonsense of the highest order. If a friend tried that in a game, our friendship would be endangered..
SHUPPET wrote: Holy crap that is the hands down stupidest interpretation I've ever seen suggested, let alone let through... WOW, that is one bad judge. If he did one thing all day it should have been kicking that TFG ass interpretation to the curb without a seconds thought. This person should not be judging a game of backyard cricket let alone a competitive event.
Its not nearly that bad. There is a RAW argument, and the Tyranid player made it effectively, and convinced the Judges. It was something that had mainly never occurred to me.
Another example of a rules confusion at LVO that was completely my fault. Did you know that if you are on the ground (Gliding), and you switch flight modes to Swooping, then you can only pivot 90 degrees from your current facing? I have played this wrong in 100% of my games ever, and got called out for it in my final game. I was guilty of it in every single game before, because when I deploy, I make no effort to pick a facing for my 1st round of Swooping, though if I had know, I could have rotated my fliers.
The only game where I used it to my advantage was an Ork player who shot a flyrant out of the sky, and that flyrant swooped 180 degrees in reverse to kill a battle wagon. If I ever play that opponent again, I will do the Nick Nanavati thing and reroll a couple successful grounding checks.
SHUPPET wrote: Holy crap that is the hands down stupidest interpretation I've ever seen suggested, let alone let through... WOW, that is one bad judge. If he did one thing all day it should have been kicking that TFG ass interpretation to the curb without a seconds thought. This person should not be judging a game of backyard cricket let alone a competitive event.
Its not nearly that bad. There is a RAW argument, and the Tyranid player made it effectively, and convinced the Judges. It was something that had mainly never occurred to me.
There really isn't a RAW argument to be made - that's not how English works.
Another example of a rules confusion at LVO that was completely my fault. Did you know that if you are on the ground (Gliding), and you switch flight modes to Swooping, then you can only pivot 90 degrees from your current facing? I have played this wrong in 100% of my games ever, and got called out for it in my final game. I was guilty of it in every single game before, because when I deploy, I make no effort to pick a facing for my 1st round of Swooping, though if I had know, I could have rotated my fliers.
Yeah, I didn't know this was an unknown :-) I've always thought it was clear that you can't pivot before you declare swooping.
tag I played my hive tyrants the same way... there is more of an argument to be made but yeah I gave up on it as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ALSO SEAN you've inspired me to try goofy things as well! I am going to the Broadside Bash which is a hugely comp'd and fluffy tourney but a full GT with ITC points where I will bring 45-60 Manufactorum genes hahah. I can't imagine it is super competitive but it sounds fun and is an excuse to work with the mawloc/lictor combo you showed off.
Undecided what I will do with my main list. I dropped 1 game due to rules "cheating" (he did it on accident) and another loss was silly dice (Swarmlord held in combat for 3 game turns by 1-2 legion of the damned) where had it gone on to 6+ I would have won handily. Tourneys like that where you don't do well but COULD HAVE make you think about your list :(
iNcontroL wrote: tag I played my hive tyrants the same way... there is more of an argument to be made but yeah I gave up on it as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ALSO SEAN you've inspired me to try goofy things as well! I am going to the Broadside Bash which is a hugely comp'd and fluffy tourney but a full GT with ITC points where I will bring 45-60 Manufactorum genes hahah. I can't imagine it is super competitive but it sounds fun and is an excuse to work with the mawloc/lictor combo you showed off.
Undecided what I will do with my main list. I dropped 1 game due to rules "cheating" (he did it on accident) and another loss was silly dice (Swarmlord held in combat for 3 game turns by 1-2 legion of the damned) where had it gone on to 6+ I would have won handily. Tourneys like that where you don't do well but COULD HAVE make you think about your list :(
Geoff I've posted up here a few times about a crazy MSU Genestealer list I've wrote and haven't had chance to run yet, despite having all the models. You should give it a try out.
5 x Genestelaers, Broodlord
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
Manafactorum Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
Yeah Geoff those are the hardest. I brought the same list to an event two weeks before LVO, and lost a close game to my friend, and then got blown out in a game that I know I should normally win but I played really bad and made tons of mistakes. It had me wondering about my list and needing to change it before LVO... but I had to recognize that I still believed in my list and myself and change for the sake of playing bad was a bad idea.
Now I did change the list from 11th to now because of change for the sake of improvement. That I think is the hardest to judge. When you are changing for worries or for real need. Because the meta does shift and change is necessary from time to time. I was stubborn at first wanting to keep my 11th list but went to a rtt and did poorly and had to look inside and accept with access to a third flyrant I would need to move that way. And finding the shifts to still give me the ground forces I wanted. Thus the tyrant guard to replace lost lictors.
I watched the streams yesterday and you guys were highly entertaining. Was a fun watch. And you guys not being able to hear us I apologize. Was most funny in the eldar game, like you guys kept talking about maybe me not knowing it could fly... which I did and wondered why he didnt, and also when talking about the impact hit from the mawloc charging and I did roll it he just holofielded it lol, but since you guys couldnt hear it affected it.
I wonder if in future they could pause clocks after every turn to point out some stuff to the broadcasters... especially in a finals game where time is maybe less important. LIke mini 30 second interviews between rounds to talk about strategy, if not every turn every other or something. Or at least point out objectives to you guys better. Since in the final you guys thought nick was winning objectives for a while until you guys heard us having a discussion near the end of the game wondering if it was worth even playing anymore. Was really fun to watch though and you guys(goatboy and you) had great rapport.
OrdoSean wrote: Yeah Geoff those are the hardest. I brought the same list to an event two weeks before LVO, and lost a close game to my friend, and then got blown out in a game that I know I should normally win but I played really bad and made tons of mistakes. It had me wondering about my list and needing to change it before LVO... but I had to recognize that I still believed in my list and myself and change for the sake of playing bad was a bad idea.
Now I did change the list from 11th to now because of change for the sake of improvement. That I think is the hardest to judge. When you are changing for worries or for real need. Because the meta does shift and change is necessary from time to time. I was stubborn at first wanting to keep my 11th list but went to a rtt and did poorly and had to look inside and accept with access to a third flyrant I would need to move that way. And finding the shifts to still give me the ground forces I wanted. Thus the tyrant guard to replace lost lictors.
I watched the streams yesterday and you guys were highly entertaining. Was a fun watch. And you guys not being able to hear us I apologize. Was most funny in the eldar game, like you guys kept talking about maybe me not knowing it could fly... which I did and wondered why he didnt, and also when talking about the impact hit from the mawloc charging and I did roll it he just holofielded it lol, but since you guys couldnt hear it affected it.
I wonder if in future they could pause clocks after every turn to point out some stuff to the broadcasters... especially in a finals game where time is maybe less important. LIke mini 30 second interviews between rounds to talk about strategy, if not every turn every other or something. Or at least point out objectives to you guys better. Since in the final you guys thought nick was winning objectives for a while until you guys heard us having a discussion near the end of the game wondering if it was worth even playing anymore. Was really fun to watch though and you guys(goatboy and you) had great rapport.
Are you talking about when you let me have fb from a turn 1 lictor charge on my wk because you didnt see the window?!!!!
OrdoSean wrote: I wonder if in future they could pause clocks after every turn to point out some stuff to the broadcasters... especially in a finals game where time is maybe less important. LIke mini 30 second interviews between rounds to talk about strategy, if not every turn every other or something. Or at least point out objectives to you guys better. Since in the final you guys thought nick was winning objectives for a while until you guys heard us having a discussion near the end of the game wondering if it was worth even playing anymore. Was really fun to watch though and you guys(goatboy and you) had great rapport.
Sean, did having the audience, and play-by-play guys bug you at all?
I'm used to drawing a crowd at local RTTs, but at LVO when my wife, teammates, and my opponents buddies all started gathering around it unnerved me a bit. One of my opponents was clearly more unnerved than I, and I asked my cheering section to leave, but Frankie came over at that point because of the number of rules arguments we kept having, and it frazzled my opponent even more, but at least shut down the random rules arguments. By the end I was pissed because of the rules arguments, and he was pissed because of the crowd, and I'm sure neither of us had any fun in that game.
SHUPPET wrote: Holy crap that is the hands down stupidest interpretation I've ever seen suggested, let alone let through... WOW, that is one bad judge. If he did one thing all day it should have been kicking that TFG ass interpretation to the curb without a seconds thought. This person should not be judging a game of backyard cricket let alone a competitive event.
Its not nearly that bad. There is a RAW argument, and the Tyranid player made it effectively, and convinced the Judges. It was something that had mainly never occurred to me.
There really isn't a RAW argument to be made - that's not how English works.
Exactly, and it IS that bad. The fact that this got through at all, and that you are describing it not as something stupidly outlandish but as something "you can't believe you hadn't considered" makes me personally doubt the credibility of both some people's own metas AND the whole LVO tournament setting, and makes me wonder what other crazy gak both of these places let fly. If a judge made a ruling like this at the highest end of competitive MTG, the amount of backlash would be insane. Not only is it undeniably against RAI by anyone using common sense, it's also completely against RAW even before the English fail, as the BEST possible argument that can be made is that there is two equally legitimate interpretations for it, which makes you wonder what his personal stake in the match was, to rule towards the option that obviously went against RAI as well the one that absolutely NOBODY has been playing it as thus far. But as Rigeld said, even that ARGUMENT is a complete fail, that's not how the English language works, it's not freaking BODMAS where you just chop it all up and go through it as you please, grammar exists for a reason.
OrdoSean wrote: Yeah Geoff those are the hardest. I brought the same list to an event two weeks before LVO, and lost a close game to my friend, and then got blown out in a game that I know I should normally win but I played really bad and made tons of mistakes. It had me wondering about my list and needing to change it before LVO... but I had to recognize that I still believed in my list and myself and change for the sake of playing bad was a bad idea.
Now I did change the list from 11th to now because of change for the sake of improvement. That I think is the hardest to judge. When you are changing for worries or for real need. Because the meta does shift and change is necessary from time to time. I was stubborn at first wanting to keep my 11th list but went to a rtt and did poorly and had to look inside and accept with access to a third flyrant I would need to move that way. And finding the shifts to still give me the ground forces I wanted. Thus the tyrant guard to replace lost lictors.
I watched the streams yesterday and you guys were highly entertaining. Was a fun watch. And you guys not being able to hear us I apologize. Was most funny in the eldar game, like you guys kept talking about maybe me not knowing it could fly... which I did and wondered why he didnt, and also when talking about the impact hit from the mawloc charging and I did roll it he just holofielded it lol, but since you guys couldnt hear it affected it.
I wonder if in future they could pause clocks after every turn to point out some stuff to the broadcasters... especially in a finals game where time is maybe less important. LIke mini 30 second interviews between rounds to talk about strategy, if not every turn every other or something. Or at least point out objectives to you guys better. Since in the final you guys thought nick was winning objectives for a while until you guys heard us having a discussion near the end of the game wondering if it was worth even playing anymore. Was really fun to watch though and you guys(goatboy and you) had great rapport.
So true!
I know a lot of it is also not the list but rather mental mistakes I made. Played too slow and took a unnecessary stab at a power one game that rolled me a fat 1 inside of shadows and blew up my 5 wound Swarmlord lol. Bah! That is the beauty of this game though.. no 1 list is perfect. Makes for a ongoing and exciting experience.
Thanks for the kind words on the broadcast <3 yeah a much better set up is one where we can see the board better AND cannot be heard by you guys. Then mini interviews and additional content coming in from other tables.
iNcontroL wrote: tag I played my hive tyrants the same way... there is more of an argument to be made but yeah I gave up on it as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ALSO SEAN you've inspired me to try goofy things as well! I am going to the Broadside Bash which is a hugely comp'd and fluffy tourney but a full GT with ITC points where I will bring 45-60 Manufactorum genes hahah. I can't imagine it is super competitive but it sounds fun and is an excuse to work with the mawloc/lictor combo you showed off.
Undecided what I will do with my main list. I dropped 1 game due to rules "cheating" (he did it on accident) and another loss was silly dice (Swarmlord held in combat for 3 game turns by 1-2 legion of the damned) where had it gone on to 6+ I would have won handily. Tourneys like that where you don't do well but COULD HAVE make you think about your list :(
Manufactorums are really terrain sensitive. If you have a lot of buildings or ruins around, they can be devastating effective as both fire magnets and actual assaulting units. The ability to infiltrate with in 6" of an opponent just seems to scare them alot, along with entering from reserve into ruins making for nice objective hunters.
Yeah well as a Nid player if the table doesn't have ruins I'm already in trouble haha. That said.. I really don't think this list is THE BEST but in a comp tourney at 2k points I kinda want to have fun and challenge myself
iNcontroL wrote: tag I played my hive tyrants the same way... there is more of an argument to be made but yeah I gave up on it as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ALSO SEAN you've inspired me to try goofy things as well! I am going to the Broadside Bash which is a hugely comp'd and fluffy tourney but a full GT with ITC points where I will bring 45-60 Manufactorum genes hahah. I can't imagine it is super competitive but it sounds fun and is an excuse to work with the mawloc/lictor combo you showed off.
Undecided what I will do with my main list. I dropped 1 game due to rules "cheating" (he did it on accident) and another loss was silly dice (Swarmlord held in combat for 3 game turns by 1-2 legion of the damned) where had it gone on to 6+ I would have won handily. Tourneys like that where you don't do well but COULD HAVE make you think about your list :(
Geoff I've posted up here a few times about a crazy MSU Genestealer list I've wrote and haven't had chance to run yet, despite having all the models. You should give it a try out.
5 x Genestelaers, Broodlord
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
Manafactorum Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
5 x Genestealers
I've played a couple variations on this theme at 1500 points and it was a lot of fun. Not the uber-est or anything, but you guys already know that.
First time I did 2 Flyrants, Vope, 2x Zopes, 4x 5 Genestealers, Dakkafex in a Pod, and 5x 5 Manufactorum Genestealers. That game was against Eldar and I won pretty handily. Infiltrating 9 squads literally all over the board is both fun and hilarious. I imagine its even more so with 14 lol.
Second time was 3 Flyrants, 2x Vope, Zope, 4x 5 Genestealers, and 5x 5 Manufactorum Genestealers. This time I was up against a Newcron Decurion for the first time, and man that was a learning experience lol. I had read the codex already and had an idea of how durable they were going to be, but seeing it play out on the table was eye opening. Damn things just don't go down. He was running a Rec Legion with Overlord, 2x 20 Warriors, 5x Immortals, 2x Night Scythes, 4x Tomb Blades, 10 Flayed ones, and a Canoptek Harvest w/ 4 Wraiths. This time I only deployed 2 'Stealer squads and outflanked the rest because I didn't want to give the Wraiths a turn 1 charge, and I didn't want them stuck in my backfield either. I mitigated the wraiths by ouflanking a couple squads near an objective in his corner, but away from the rest of his force. The Flyrants just could not do enough damage to those warrior bricks to get him off objectives and a lucky round of shooting by one Night Scythe followed by a bad round of saves for me cost me my Warlord. The Flayed Ones just waltzed up the board and mulched my backfield. Probably should have killed those guys first and it would have been a closer game. The other 6 squads of 'Stealers outflanked into cover near his warrior bricks, but came in piecemeal so I was never able to put enough wounds in an assault to get a sweeping advance off. I could have played it better, but I do think that DecurionCrons with a strong ground game are going to be tough for Flyrant Spam Nids to deal with.
He is a fantastic player, when he showed me how to use spore mines, I pretty much had an organism. I plan on running a sporefield formation with my eldar at adepticon. With so many good lists out there, and a wide verity of missions being played across different formats, play skill is now more important then it has ever been.
Can you share how he showed you to use spore mines please
NVM, I saw you posted it already... I didn't know the Tyranid tactics page jumped a whole page already... my bad!
Sean, do you think you could give a quick rundown of your opponents from rounds 1-6? I'm curious to see what your matchups were like. Also, in your practice what matchups did you find were the worst for you? I could see the right Tau build being very troublesome with enough anti air and SMS to easily kill MSU units.
Round 1: Eldar/Dark Eldar - Spiritseer, archon(webway shadowfield, agonizer), 5 dscythe wraithguard, 4 waveserpents, 3 units of dire avengers, 2 wraithknights
Round 2: TSHIFT winner eldar/tau: 4 Wave serpents, mantle jet seer, 4 dire avengers, 2 solo hornets, tau fireblade cadre (2 units of broadsides, riptide), void shield generator
Round 3: blood angels and imperial fists: same list as in the final, cents, 4 units of scouts, centurians, mephiston, librarian, lysander
Round 4: Orks and necrons: 2 weirdboys, warboss with luckystick, 15 boys in a battlewagon, 3 meganobs in truck, 3 mega nobz in truck, 10 boys in truck, mega blasta artillery, canoptex formation (wraiths, scarbs, spyder), gretchin, summoned demons.
Round 5: Jy2 and his Pentyrants: 5 flyrants, 3 lictors, 2 rippers, mawloc, void shield
Round 6: Demons/Tyranids: fateweaver, 2 tzeentch heralds, 2 units of 7 screamers, 11 horrors, 3 nurglings, 3 Flyrants, 3 mucolids
and then demons, eldar, scouts again in the finals. I lost round 3 to Nicks scouts and then we met again in the final round.
You are so tall and dreamy sean
Exalted for tactical merit. I don't know if you saw the stream of his last two games but I've never seen so much belly button at a 40k event. What a tease
OrdoSean wrote: Yeah Geoff those are the hardest. I brought the same list to an event two weeks before LVO, and lost a close game to my friend, and then got blown out in a game that I know I should normally win but I played really bad and made tons of mistakes. It had me wondering about my list and needing to change it before LVO... but I had to recognize that I still believed in my list and myself and change for the sake of playing bad was a bad idea.
Now I did change the list from 11th to now because of change for the sake of improvement. That I think is the hardest to judge. When you are changing for worries or for real need. Because the meta does shift and change is necessary from time to time. I was stubborn at first wanting to keep my 11th list but went to a rtt and did poorly and had to look inside and accept with access to a third flyrant I would need to move that way. And finding the shifts to still give me the ground forces I wanted. Thus the tyrant guard to replace lost lictors.
I watched the streams yesterday and you guys were highly entertaining. Was a fun watch. And you guys not being able to hear us I apologize. Was most funny in the eldar game, like you guys kept talking about maybe me not knowing it could fly... which I did and wondered why he didnt, and also when talking about the impact hit from the mawloc charging and I did roll it he just holofielded it lol, but since you guys couldnt hear it affected it.
I wonder if in future they could pause clocks after every turn to point out some stuff to the broadcasters... especially in a finals game where time is maybe less important. LIke mini 30 second interviews between rounds to talk about strategy, if not every turn every other or something. Or at least point out objectives to you guys better. Since in the final you guys thought nick was winning objectives for a while until you guys heard us having a discussion near the end of the game wondering if it was worth even playing anymore. Was really fun to watch though and you guys(goatboy and you) had great rapport.
Are you talking about when you let me have fb from a turn 1 lictor charge on my wk because you didnt see the window?!!!!
Those windows may literally have cost Sean those two wins. In the other game that he played against Verthane at that tournament, I think there were two additional sets of nearly invisible windows. Poor lictors
I've got an upcoming tournament using "Da Boyz" army comp. The important parts are:
Spoiler:
1850 2 sources. Non troops are 0-2 Forgeworld is 0-1 and costs a source No LOW 0-1 CAD or Leviathan (this is my personal restriction). 0-1 Ally. 0-3 FMCs If I use a Tyrannocyte or Mucolid or anything from Shield of Baal Leviathan, it costs a source. 0-1 Fortification from a list, it costs a source.
This is a really interesting change of pace for me, but find that I am struggling to build a list that I like. Some of their missions penalize expensive units, and some of them penalize spamming (even 2 of anything).
This is what I've come up with, and would like to know how you guys could improve it:
That is...a very interesting set of restrictions. Sadly does nothing to serpent spam. Or does it? I'm not sure if dedicated transports count as a "troops choice" for the purpose of that event. I hope they don't allow 6-8 wave serpents. Because that will happen and would pretty much defeat the point of their carefully crafted restrictions.
I think the list I would use would be something along the lines of:
2 Flyrants (standard loadout)
Bastion w/Comms
2 single model Lictor units
6 min size genestealer units
20 gargoyles
6 Raveners w/rending claws
2 Dakkafex (single unit)
Mawloc
Mawloc
luke1705 wrote: That is...a very interesting set of restrictions. Sadly does nothing to serpent spam. Or does it? I'm not sure if dedicated transports count as a "troops choice" for the purpose of that event. I hope they don't allow 6-8 wave serpents. Because that will happen and would pretty much defeat the point of their carefully crafted restrictions.
Serpents are 0-3 as are all Dedicated transports (troop or not). But it doesn't apply to Tyranids because Tyrannocytes aren't dedicated.
I've got an upcoming tournament using "Da Boyz" army comp. The important parts are:
Spoiler:
1850
2 sources.
Non troops are 0-2
Forgeworld is 0-1 and costs a source
No LOW
0-1 CAD or Leviathan (this is my personal restriction).
0-1 Ally.
0-3 FMCs If I use a Tyrannocyte or Mucolid or anything from Shield of Baal Leviathan, it costs a source.
0-1 Fortification from a list, it costs a source.
This is a really interesting change of pace for me, but find that I am struggling to build a list that I like. Some of their missions penalize expensive units, and some of them penalize spamming (even 2 of anything).
This is what I've come up with, and would like to know how you guys could improve it:
Thoughts, without a malanthrope this list is far, far less powerful.
I like Teriaki, and Momma's House, but Tervigon is a little pricey...I suggest Lose the AG, and the Claws, Lose one Hive Commander, and double out the Veno for durability. some of this is "style", but that's how I would do it.
Sean, did having the audience, and play-by-play guys bug you at all?
No we couldnt hear the play by play guys at all. I did shout things at them from time to time. Crowd was kept back to a nice distance with roped off area. And given people I knew were there gave me people to chat with during my opponents turn... well during the eldar game anyway, in the finals i was on the other side of the board away from the crowd.
In fact I think the fact that I was so publicly on display in those games helped me just calm down and relax. I think those two games were some of the most patient well thought out games of 40k Ive maybe ever played. I can at times play too aggressively.
If you are ever lucky enough to run your hands through his beard, you will find enlightenment like I have.
John if people start coming up to me and running their hands through my beard Im going to kill you.
Was definitely my first inclination. Sean will you be publishing battle reports on your blog like you did for the 11th company tournament? I know the last two games are up (or will soon be up) via frontline gaming. But I'd be interested in hearing about the other games, in particular the one vs Nick and the one that you lost to the guy who you played in the finals. Good thing you picked the right one to win
Yeah I will try to do them. Havent looked through my pictures yet been sick since returning home. I know that sadly as the rounds went deeper my camera was more and more forgotten... and I think I may have taken merely one picture on the final day, but as you said at least there are those great twitch recordings.
They were pretty well versed. We couldnt hear them while playing but I watched the feeds afterwards. Where they struggled is the players couldnt often be heard as well because we often kept our mics too far away from our faces and didnt speak loud enough, and the table had some blind spots for them as they were only commenting on camera angles they had so would sometimes lose track of the objectives.
But what helped was that one of the commentators is a heavy tyranid player and both he and the other commentator both know me and have discussed my list with me before, and in the case of the finals match the other guy was best friends with him so there was list familiarity with their commentary and they were able to quite accurately give opinions on things.
Ok guys,there a 40k league in my local hobby store but with rules,after playing with eldar in 6th edition tournament scene I plan to go with Tyranids this time
The league is going to be 1000 points
Rules:
Min 25% troops FOC Max 25% elites
Max 25% HQ Max 25% Heavy Support
Max 25% Fast Attack
Special Character limited to 1
Artifact limited to 1
Max of 2 Dedicated Transports are allowed
Siding allowed limited to 100pts
So I cant take HQ more that 250 points etc,except the Troops must bypass 250 points,also I can bring CADs? so maybe Leviathan?
and apparently I can't bring Forge world models,cause the League organizer says that its too OP?
So any ideas on what to bring? my opponents from the last touraments are AM,Space Marines,Orcs,Necrons,and Chaos Space Marines (I'm the only Eldar player at that time)
Pertruabo wrote: Ok guys,there a 40k league in my local hobby store but with rules,after playing with eldar in 6th edition tournament scene I plan to go with Tyranids this time
The league is going to be 1000 points
Rules:
Min 25% troops FOC Max 25% elites
Max 25% HQ Max 25% Heavy Support
Max 25% Fast Attack
Special Character limited to 1
Artifact limited to 1
Max of 2 Dedicated Transports are allowed
Siding allowed limited to 100pts
and apparently I can't bring Forge world models,cause the League organizer says that its too OP?
So any ideas on what to bring? my opponents from the last touraments are AM,Space Marines,Orcs,Necrons,and Chaos Space Marines (I'm the only Eldar player at that time)
Pertruabo wrote: Ok guys,there a 40k league in my local hobby store but with rules,after playing with eldar in 6th edition tournament scene I plan to go with Tyranids this time
The league is going to be 1000 points
Rules:
Min 25% troops FOC Max 25% elites
Max 25% HQ Max 25% Heavy Support
Max 25% Fast Attack
Special Character limited to 1
Artifact limited to 1
Max of 2 Dedicated Transports are allowed
Siding allowed limited to 100pts
and apparently I can't bring Forge world models,cause the League organizer says that its too OP?
So any ideas on what to bring? my opponents from the last touraments are AM,Space Marines,Orcs,Necrons,and Chaos Space Marines (I'm the only Eldar player at that time)
Sean, did having the audience, and play-by-play guys bug you at all?
No we couldnt hear the play by play guys at all. I did shout things at them from time to time. Crowd was kept back to a nice distance with roped off area. And given people I knew were there gave me people to chat with during my opponents turn... well during the eldar game anyway, in the finals i was on the other side of the board away from the crowd.
In fact I think the fact that I was so publicly on display in those games helped me just calm down and relax. I think those two games were some of the most patient well thought out games of 40k Ive maybe ever played. I can at times play too aggressively.
Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
luke1705 wrote: Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
luke1705 wrote: Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
Heya Luke,
Alright cool,but sadly I decided to drop from the League because the schedule is intervening with school so school first.But I'm still buidling up my needs
Can you or anyone suggest what to get? to around 1850 points,cause I'll follow the second league which is planned to be 1500 points and the allow FW in the 1500 points league.
Currently I only have 1 Flying Hive Tyrant,a box of dual venom and zoanthropes, 24 termagants, 3 warriors,and 9 ripper swarms from FW And I've placed an order for a tervigon and a mawloc to my local store.So any suggestions on what to get guys?
luke1705 wrote: Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
Don't forget 2 str 6 shots each
Would you like to jink Mr tau player ?!
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Get yourself another Flyrant for two reasons:
1) Best unit in the Codex, mobile Synapse, good firepower.
2) FMC's work best when you've got multiples. One get's focused down to death, multiples share the pain
Get yourself another Flyrant for two reasons:
1) Best unit in the Codex, mobile Synapse, good firepower.
2) FMC's work best when you've got multiples. One get's focused down to death, multiples share the pain
Yeah,I only have one cause it's getting painted by a painter from Poland cause I plan to use it as the main Warlord cause of the Paintjob which I can't achieve by my self but thanks for the tip mate!
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Nydus would be more like the Tyrannocyte, that allows units without the option otherwise to drop anywhere
Using Lictors to guide in Mawlocs would be more like... Using an Overseer to give vision allowing you to build a Nydus (the Mawloc itself already acts like a Nydus does)
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Nydus would be more like the Tyrannocyte, that allows units without the option otherwise to drop anywhere
Using Lictors to guide in Mawlocs would be more like... Using an Overseer to give vision allowing you to build a Nydus (the Mawloc itself already acts like a Nydus does)
So yeah, more or less
Sweeeeeet, so guys returning back to my original questions
what models should I get now? I plan to play competitively with Tyranids
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Nydus would be more like the Tyrannocyte, that allows units without the option otherwise to drop anywhere
Using Lictors to guide in Mawlocs would be more like... Using an Overseer to give vision allowing you to build a Nydus (the Mawloc itself already acts like a Nydus does)
HI all. I been trying to Build a Null Style deployment list fot Tyranids. With the acceptance of CtA allies I think we can do it now. With different formation and some codexs we spend a limited amount of points in a hard to kill unit that is droped defeancivly. with focus on serviving the first round. that way we would get the alpha strike with our unit that have a ferly short range. Tyranids exeal in a short range fire fight.
I am not wanting to spend more then 450 for- 500. Less points the better as I want more Nids.
I been looking at dark angles and space wolves. The space wolves have two formations that look promising.
Wolf Guard Thunderstrike: 1 unit of 10 Wolfguard in a Drop Pod, and 1 unit of Terminators with all of the supplement special rules (Kingsguard, Sagaborn, First Among Equals). All units in the Formation must deepstrike, and, they all come in on a single roll. starts out around 395 and can be kitted out to be nasty if you want.
Not sure how this work with only one drop pod. thought on this would be helpful.
2nd is the viod claw formation. 5 termy's effects any reserve rolls it says. would it effect Tyranids primary force as well? Most likely not but thought I ask as well... Is it survivable?
Dark angles would have to have Beial and a squad of termy's. Since they can pick when they come in they allow you to be flexible with deployment..
I think the Tunderstrike is the best option as it gives 3 units that have to target. next is the Dark Angels.
Any other unit we can use for a true null deployment type list. Could this be a option to look in too?
Just deploy spore mines. Thats what I do to null deploy. I reserved everything real in my list in almost every game at LVO. My tyrants started on the board 3 times and two of those times flew off the board turn 1.
OrdoSean wrote: Just deploy spore mines. Thats what I do to null deploy. I reserved everything real in my list in almost every game at LVO. My tyrants started on the board 3 times and two of those times flew off the board turn 1.
How many spore mine? Can't they just shot 3 units of 3 spore mine off the table easily? Or do they have to target each spore separately?
Congrats on your games LVO as well.
Well with a CAD plus Leviathin I had 6 units of spore mines and 4 mucolids which basically do the same thing. SO pregame you evaluate how many of those 10 units your opponent can feasibly kill turn one based on factors like terrain and drop pods and line of sight and what not. And based on that evaluation you deploy x number of those units. Spore mines are really easy to hide... they arent more than an inch tall.
OrdoSean wrote: Well with a CAD plus Leviathin I had 6 units of spore mines and 4 mucolids which basically do the same thing. SO pregame you evaluate how many of those 10 units your opponent can feasibly kill turn one based on factors like terrain and drop pods and line of sight and what not. And based on that evaluation you deploy x number of those units. Spore mines are really easy to hide... they arent more than an inch tall.
Was there any game where you felt like you need to deploy all 6 units of spore mines?
OrdoSean wrote: Well with a CAD plus Leviathin I had 6 units of spore mines and 4 mucolids which basically do the same thing. SO pregame you evaluate how many of those 10 units your opponent can feasibly kill turn one based on factors like terrain and drop pods and line of sight and what not. And based on that evaluation you deploy x number of those units. Spore mines are really easy to hide... they arent more than an inch tall.
True. I have never used them personally but ia can see how they could work for doing a null style as they are cheap in comparison to what I was going to do.
What do you think about the formation with them worth it?
They tourney I am going to does not allow cad + Lev yet, and no self allying. It is using ITC mission so some progress. lol
Yeah in several games I deployed all the mines and several mucloids. Against nick roses list I did both times deploy 6 mines and at least 3 mucolids. Because he had thunderfire, drop pod with split fire, drop pod with combat squad, drop pods themselves, plus devastators... so thats in theory 8 units he can kill turn one so I need at least a few more than that... obviously with terrain I can lower that number.. but needing units on the comms which will be not in terrain by rules means again keeping that number up.
luke1705 wrote: Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
Heya Luke,
Alright cool,but sadly I decided to drop from the League because the schedule is intervening with school so school first.But I'm still buidling up my needs
Can you or anyone suggest what to get? to around 1850 points,cause I'll follow the second league which is planned to be 1500 points and the allow FW in the 1500 points league.
Currently I only have 1 Flying Hive Tyrant,a box of dual venom and zoanthropes, 24 termagants, 3 warriors,and 9 ripper swarms from FW And I've placed an order for a tervigon and a mawloc to my local store.So any suggestions on what to get guys?
luke1705 wrote: Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
Don't forget 2 str 6 shots each
Would you like to jink Mr tau player ?!
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
I strongly suggest a second Winged Tyrant, it is almost impossible to have too many. Ok, maybe. But two to three is in "must have" territory. You can use magnets, but it is very likely you can build the Thropes based on your "style". The two basic methods are 1) Use two Venos, and one Zoey. Most everyone who does this is happy. 2) Two Zoeys, for the extra rolls, and Warp charges, and one Veno. I use this most of the time, and it suits me very well.
If you do magnetize, you can also experiment with a Neurothrope as well.
I also think a second Mawloc is well worth it, but your experience may vary, so maybe Proxy a few games first. As far as FW, dude Malanthrope is the business. Almost "must take" good.
shadowfinder wrote: HI all. I been trying to Build a Null Style deployment list fot Tyranids. With the acceptance of CtA allies I think we can do it now. With different formation and some codexs we spend a limited amount of points in a hard to kill unit that is droped defeancivly. with focus on serviving the first round. that way we would get the alpha strike with our unit that have a ferly short range. Tyranids exeal in a short range fire fight.
I am not wanting to spend more then 450 for- 500. Less points the better as I want more Nids.
I been looking at dark angles and space wolves. The space wolves have two formations that look promising.
Wolf Guard Thunderstrike: 1 unit of 10 Wolfguard in a Drop Pod, and 1 unit of Terminators with all of the supplement special rules (Kingsguard, Sagaborn, First Among Equals). All units in the Formation must deepstrike, and, they all come in on a single roll. starts out around 395 and can be kitted out to be nasty if you want.
Not sure how this work with only one drop pod. thought on this would be helpful.
2nd is the viod claw formation. 5 termy's effects any reserve rolls it says. would it effect Tyranids primary force as well? Most likely not but thought I ask as well... Is it survivable?
Dark angles would have to have Beial and a squad of termy's. Since they can pick when they come in they allow you to be flexible with deployment..
I think the Tunderstrike is the best option as it gives 3 units that have to target. next is the Dark Angels.
Any other unit we can use for a true null deployment type list. Could this be a option to look in too?
You could look into the Scalpel Squadron for DE, two units of Wracks, two Venoms. Have to start in Venoms and DS T1 - if they get First Blood they get D3 Points instead of one. Base cost is 230 (with 2 Splinter Cannons on each Venom)
Congratulations Sean. Very well done and it was a pleasure playing against you. You got me good with the Shadows + Psychic Scream combo. Not that it is an excuse or anything, but this was actually the very first time since 6th that I've gone head-to-head with my bugs against another bug player. But I shall not fall for that again. Very well played.
luke1705 wrote: Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
Heya Luke,
Alright cool,but sadly I decided to drop from the League because the schedule is intervening with school so school first.But I'm still buidling up my needs
Can you or anyone suggest what to get? to around 1850 points,cause I'll follow the second league which is planned to be 1500 points and the allow FW in the 1500 points league.
Currently I only have 1 Flying Hive Tyrant,a box of dual venom and zoanthropes, 24 termagants, 3 warriors,and 9 ripper swarms from FW And I've placed an order for a tervigon and a mawloc to my local store.So any suggestions on what to get guys?
luke1705 wrote: Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
Don't forget 2 str 6 shots each
Would you like to jink Mr tau player ?!
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
I strongly suggest a second Winged Tyrant, it is almost impossible to have too many. Ok, maybe. But two to three is in "must have" territory. You can use magnets, but it is very likely you can build the Thropes based on your "style". The two basic methods are 1) Use two Venos, and one Zoey. Most everyone who does this is happy. 2) Two Zoeys, for the extra rolls, and Warp charges, and one Veno. I use this most of the time, and it suits me very well.
If you do magnetize, you can also experiment with a Neurothrope as well.
I also think a second Mawloc is well worth it, but your experience may vary, so maybe Proxy a few games first. As far as FW, dude Malanthrope is the business. Almost "must take" good.
Ok cool,I already got the Old tick head Zoanthrope as A Neurothrope,so any other recommendations for models? Tervigon ?
and since I only have 24 termagants should I get more?
luke1705 wrote: Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
Heya Luke,
Alright cool,but sadly I decided to drop from the League because the schedule is intervening with school so school first.But I'm still buidling up my needs
Can you or anyone suggest what to get? to around 1850 points,cause I'll follow the second league which is planned to be 1500 points and the allow FW in the 1500 points league.
Currently I only have 1 Flying Hive Tyrant,a box of dual venom and zoanthropes, 24 termagants, 3 warriors,and 9 ripper swarms from FW And I've placed an order for a tervigon and a mawloc to my local store.So any suggestions on what to get guys?
luke1705 wrote: Lictors guide a Mawloc in without scatter, can wreck vehicles in assault, can rend and kill most troops choices, and are generally very annoying to uproot unless you have ignores cover
Don't forget 2 str 6 shots each
Would you like to jink Mr tau player ?!
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
I strongly suggest a second Winged Tyrant, it is almost impossible to have too many. Ok, maybe. But two to three is in "must have" territory. You can use magnets, but it is very likely you can build the Thropes based on your "style". The two basic methods are 1) Use two Venos, and one Zoey. Most everyone who does this is happy. 2) Two Zoeys, for the extra rolls, and Warp charges, and one Veno. I use this most of the time, and it suits me very well.
If you do magnetize, you can also experiment with a Neurothrope as well.
I also think a second Mawloc is well worth it, but your experience may vary, so maybe Proxy a few games first. As far as FW, dude Malanthrope is the business. Almost "must take" good.
Ok cool,I already got the Old tick head Zoanthrope as A Neurothrope,so any other recommendations for models? Tervigon ?
and since I only have 24 termagants should I get more?
This also falls under "style" I think that currently Tervigon is overpriced for what you get, so I can't recommend one. But one Tervigon can still add a lot of value. But to gain that value, you also need a Termagant Brood of x30. In addition you likely need about 21 extra for spawns, you can recycle casualtys, but Murphys law says you'll take no losses when ever you want to spawn.
Personally I use Hormagaunts for most functions. But that is dependant on my style of play. If you do run a Tervigon, I always take Hive Commander, and Outflank. I always run it bare bones, with a Thorax hive with Electro grubs Just spawn as soon as you arrive for some bubble wrap, and go to town on the backfield.
One of my favorite Big Bugs for lower point games is Tyrannofex, Acid Spray, Thorax hive (Electro bugs) I often toss on Adrenals as well for 200 total. It tends to be a unstoppable Troop deleting monstrousity!
1500 and below, my "go to" heavy slots are: Tyrannofex, Twin Mawlocs. I am always happy with what I get from them.
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Nydus would be more like the Tyrannocyte, that allows units without the option otherwise to drop anywhere
Using Lictors to guide in Mawlocs would be more like... Using an Overseer to give vision allowing you to build a Nydus (the Mawloc itself already acts like a Nydus does)
So yeah, more or less
Nydus would be more like the Trygon's tunnels.
In style and lore, maybe, in gameplay... not so much
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Nydus would be more like the Tyrannocyte, that allows units without the option otherwise to drop anywhere
Using Lictors to guide in Mawlocs would be more like... Using an Overseer to give vision allowing you to build a Nydus (the Mawloc itself already acts like a Nydus does)
So yeah, more or less
Nydus would be more like the Trygon's tunnels.
In style and lore, maybe, in gameplay... not so much
Ah I see,well its nice when your opponent see a suprise pie plate coming from below,while spewing a giant centipede like creature ready to rampage around.
Now I've got all the tips I need to start around thanks to you guys,my new stuff should arrive around a month and I could paint 500 points of Nids to get the game going.
Also I have a few matters to ask you guys,I'm currently eye balling the old Tyranid Hive Tyrant from the 90's,I plan to buy one and convert it to todays loadout which is wings and TL Devourers,but seeing that todays Tyrants are 60mm in base size while the old Tyrant is small in size, is it fair to place him in a 40mm base? I plan to give wings from the gargoyle sprue and give spinefist as devourer count as. But wont this disturb the game? Cause the model is so small but packs a huge punch and seeing that it could hide behind cover more easily that the current Tyrant.
Overall,will you allow someone to use the old Tyrant with the current meta loadout while playing againts you? but with the appropriate base (60mm for the old tyrant) and wargear
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Nydus would be more like the Tyrannocyte, that allows units without the option otherwise to drop anywhere
Using Lictors to guide in Mawlocs would be more like... Using an Overseer to give vision allowing you to build a Nydus (the Mawloc itself already acts like a Nydus does)
So yeah, more or less
Nydus would be more like the Trygon's tunnels.
In style and lore, maybe, in gameplay... not so much
Both are a way to deploy units, and both are almost never used.
Also I have a few matters to ask you guys,I'm currently eye balling the old Tyranid Hive Tyrant from the 90's,I plan to buy one and convert it to todays loadout which is wings and TL Devourers,but seeing that todays Tyrants are 60mm in base size while the old Tyrant is small in size, is it fair to place him in a 40mm base? I plan to give wings from the gargoyle sprue and give spinefist as devourer count as. But wont this disturb the game? Cause the model is so small but packs a huge punch and seeing that it could hide behind cover more easily that the current Tyrant.
I'd probably use the old Tyrant as a Tyranid Prime at this point. As you said, it does have an unfair advantage over the current one in terms of being easier to hide and the smaller footprint also impacts its overall maneuverability (easier to place between enemy models) and various other mechanics (blasts, assault, etc.)
There really shouldn't be an issue with older models. Yes, most tournaments will require you to use the current base size (although seeing 28mm terminator bases is still not uncommon). As for the model itself, the gargoyle wings are pretty dinky, but I know that bigger ones tend to get pricey fast. I can't imagine that anyone would have an issue with the old model if you had appropriately-sized wings. If it's really an issue of "I can't see THAT model but I'm pretty sure I could see the regular one" you have two options - have a regular one that you can use as a stand in, or just let the dude shoot as if he could see it. That solves 99% of "I think you're modeling for advantage" disputes and really doesn't disadvantage you in any significant way most of the time
Exepct for some old timers this list should play very differently from what most people expect from Tyranids. it is like some of my 5th edition style of play.
Here is my list with unwanted Tyranids that I am going to take to A local 20+ tournament in just a few weeks on the 1st.
The list is designed to olmost be a null deployment. Only the spore formation in on the table. I can place the tyrants on the table if I go first to make sure they come in 2nd turn for sure by flying them turn 1. Depending on terrain on the board will of course decide placement. If I have the choice this list will go 2nd all the time. I don't really want to go first with it. but it will happen.
Please talk me though this list. What's week or what match up you think would be problematic it.
+++ Tyranid Normal Cad Null Drop List (1849pts) +++
shadowfinder wrote: I have been trying the Null deployment list. It has been working really well. Was wondering if any one else has given it a go.
It's the strategy that I use, hence deepstriking rippers, mawlocs and lictors.
It is also the strategy of GT-winner Sean Nayden's #lictorshame list.
I think our game at TSHT would have been very different if had stayed true to my personal play style for Tyranids. I look forward to a rematch next year maybe.
I playtested both my proposed army lists, and the Da Boyz missions yesterday, and now that I understand the missions, and also what lists are strong (NewCrons mopped up), and what lists I don't need to worry about as much (Eldar with 3 Serpents aren't near as scary). So I've decided to take a Living Artillery list:
For most tourneys, Biovores can be a situational thing, because they can't contribute if the opponent is meched up. But with Da Boyz limits on dedicated transports, that goes away, and with some missions focus on board control, Necron warrior blobs can be so dominant, so Living Artillery seems like the best option even though I have to give up access to Malanthropes, Dimacharons, Tyrannocytes, and all formations.
Some interesting things about the newcrons from a test game I had.
1) 20 Termagants were locked in combat with 2 Tomb Blades for 8!!! rounds of combat.
2) 2 Wraiths multi-assaulted a Carnifex and a Tyrannocyte. After a long, long time, the Tyrannocyte came out of it with 1 wound left.
3) I charged 3 Warriors with a Tyrannofex. It took 5 rounds of combat to finish them.
4) Necrons can shrug off devourer shots like nobody's business.
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Nydus would be more like the Tyrannocyte, that allows units without the option otherwise to drop anywhere
Using Lictors to guide in Mawlocs would be more like... Using an Overseer to give vision allowing you to build a Nydus (the Mawloc itself already acts like a Nydus does)
So yeah, more or less
Nydus would be more like the Trygon's tunnels.
In style and lore, maybe, in gameplay... not so much
Both are a way to deploy units, and both are almost never used.
Well, that doesn't change the fact that the playstyles are different and the Trygon performs nothing like a Nydus in practice. Because actually, the Trygon is NOT a way to deploy units, it's a way to risk losing the game for the rare payoff of being able to deepstrike a unit turn 3, after highly telegraphing exactly where and when it is arriving to your opponent. Assuming you get super lucky of course, in that you need the Trygon to roll out turn 2, and the unit you want to DS roll out turn 3, otherwise it's coming in from the board edge. It's trash. Tyrannocytes are the way to deepstrike something in and also THE way to play a large portion of our dex which just doesn't work without them, and as such are also pretty popular
Trygon's are never played because they are a bad a unit for the points, and the tunnels don't work. They don't do anything. They don't allow you to Nydus in a unit behind enemy lines, that's what Tyrannocytes do for anything that doesn't have Deep Strike. Much more cost effectively as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Pertruabo, it doesn't matter if your opponent wants you to or not, they have to allow old models they are part of the game. The old Tyrant's look amazing imo and are one of the only older models I actually like. I'd probably find a way to update their weapons, but aside from that I'd love to see your finished version of one!
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Nydus would be more like the Tyrannocyte, that allows units without the option otherwise to drop anywhere
Using Lictors to guide in Mawlocs would be more like... Using an Overseer to give vision allowing you to build a Nydus (the Mawloc itself already acts like a Nydus does)
So yeah, more or less
Nydus would be more like the Trygon's tunnels.
In style and lore, maybe, in gameplay... not so much
Both are a way to deploy units, and both are almost never used.
Well, that doesn't change the fact that the playstyles are different and the Trygon performs nothing like a Nydus in practice. Because actually, the Trygon is NOT a way to deploy units, it's a way to risk losing the game for the rare payoff of being able to deepstrike a unit turn 3, after highly telegraphing exactly where and when it is arriving to your opponent. Assuming you get super lucky of course, in that you need the Trygon to roll out turn 2, and the unit you want to DS roll out turn 3, otherwise it's coming in from the board edge. It's trash.
Tyrannocytes are the way to deepstrike something in and also THE way to play a large portion of our dex which just doesn't work without them, and as such are also pretty popular
Trygon's are never played because they are a bad a unit for the points, and the tunnels don't work. They don't do anything. They don't allow you to Nydus in a unit behind enemy lines, that's what Tyrannocytes do for anything that doesn't have Deep Strike. Much more cost effectively as well.
The Tyrannocite works by letting you deploy 1 unit in the middle of a battle. That's not how the Nydus work. The Nydus let's you deploy large amounts of troops, but the Nydus is vulnerable to enemy fire so no one uses it in the middle of a battle. And just like the Trygon, the Nydus is a way to risk losing the game for a rare payoff.
Every unit decision in Starcraft is a risk, but unlike the Trygon, the Nydus a tactically viable unit with a niche, we see Nydus every now and again in the highest level of SC2, Trygon however is unplayable. As I said, the "tunneling in all at once" vibe and lore of the Trygon might fit, but can you please tell me exactly how you would build a list with Trygon tunnels in it to carry through multiple units? That is practically already a GUARANTEE you will lose the game against a sensible opponent with averaged out rolls, since the chances are like less than 1% of games where you are getting all your units through that tunnel, the bulk of which will come in from your board edge and walk across the field. If they are units that can deal with this, then you didnt need to be wasting 400 points on at LEAST 2 Trygons as is just to deepstrike them, and if they are units that CANT deal with this, than you are behind the amount of points equal to how many didn't make it through. Taking a Trygon just guarantees you come out behind unless by some crazy chance you get perfect rolls, and EVEN THEN, for that 1 out of every 100 game where that happens, the same thing could have just been done with Pods.
Because competitor to this is the Tyrannocyte, which, for less than the price of 2 Trygons, can reliably and consistently bring in 5 full units every game which is more than you are EVER getting out of Trygons, and it doesn't nerf over half the ones that don't come in at the right time and force them to walk across the field (ala Nydus, if the backdoor Nydus gets popped, you just remake it and out the front ). Also the Tyrannocytes will arguably do more than the Trygons would anyway thanks to their 5x Devourers or Cannons, EACH, so there is no argument to ever take the Trygon. This is why Nid players responded so well to the release of the Spore, it does what our tunnels SHOULD have done for us but poor writing held back.
So thematically, Trygons may be closer to the Nydus, but in terms of actual gameplay and effect on a match, the playstyle of the Drop Spores are definitely much mucher closer.
While using the trygons tunles is a chance in a blue moon. Trygons are useful for other thing.
I agree Spores give the feeling of being invaded more. Poding a tervagon that then drops some gaunts and a Fex with two spore full if Hormagaunts looks impressive when it lands. Having 40+ models show up in your back field can be a little troubling
shadowfinder wrote: While using the trygons tunles is a chance in a blue moon. Trygons are useful for other thing.
I agree Spores give the feeling of being invaded more. Poding a tervagon that then drops some gaunts and a Fex with two spore full if Hormagaunts looks impressive when it lands. Having 40+ models show up in your back field can be a little troubling
Trygon's are not really useful for other things though, thats the problem with the unit. Only possible use I can think of for Trygons is Endless Swarm. THIS I will agree is a very Nydus style build.
Oh cool! So its like the Nydus from Starcraft? I havent play with Nids cause there all are still being painted
Nydus would be more like the Tyrannocyte, that allows units without the option otherwise to drop anywhere
Using Lictors to guide in Mawlocs would be more like... Using an Overseer to give vision allowing you to build a Nydus (the Mawloc itself already acts like a Nydus does)
So yeah, more or less
Nydus would be more like the Trygon's tunnels.
In style and lore, maybe, in gameplay... not so much
Both are a way to deploy units, and both are almost never used.
Well, that doesn't change the fact that the playstyles are different and the Trygon performs nothing like a Nydus in practice. Because actually, the Trygon is NOT a way to deploy units, it's a way to risk losing the game for the rare payoff of being able to deepstrike a unit turn 3, after highly telegraphing exactly where and when it is arriving to your opponent. Assuming you get super lucky of course, in that you need the Trygon to roll out turn 2, and the unit you want to DS roll out turn 3, otherwise it's coming in from the board edge. It's trash.
Tyrannocytes are the way to deepstrike something in and also THE way to play a large portion of our dex which just doesn't work without them, and as such are also pretty popular
Trygon's are never played because they are a bad a unit for the points, and the tunnels don't work. They don't do anything. They don't allow you to Nydus in a unit behind enemy lines, that's what Tyrannocytes do for anything that doesn't have Deep Strike. Much more cost effectively as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Pertruabo, it doesn't matter if your opponent wants you to or not, they have to allow old models they are part of the game. The old Tyrant's look amazing imo and are one of the only older models I actually like. I'd probably find a way to update their weapons, but aside from that I'd love to see your finished version of one!
Thanks dude!
I'm gonna use the spinefist from the termagants sprue as a devourer count as since I think that is the only arm that looks proportional and not wonky,and I'll use some gargoyle wings for the Tyrant
shadowfinder wrote: While using the trygons tunles is a chance in a blue moon. Trygons are useful for other thing.
I agree Spores give the feeling of being invaded more. Poding a tervagon that then drops some gaunts and a Fex with two spore full if Hormagaunts looks impressive when it lands. Having 40+ models show up in your back field can be a little troubling
Trygon's are not really useful for other things though, thats the problem with the unit. Only possible use I can think of for Trygons is Endless Swarm. THIS I will agree is a very Nydus style build.
I started using trygons a lot recently and have found them to be solidly good. I am using the prime in a Null style list for extra Synapse and has been working really well. Now I am not saying they are a must take for lists. I have found that people usually have other concerns with the other units coming in to go after him when he arrives. which allows him to go after his preferred target. It has been great having him on the table as well.
With two tyrants and two fex, spores and other units on the ground at the same time he works really well.
One of my favorite formations in Apoc is Subterranean Swarm. I wish the non-apoc version were as good. That gives you a good reason to use Trygons, or at least one Trygon Prime.
tag8833 wrote: I playtested both my proposed army lists, and the Da Boyz missions yesterday, and now that I understand the missions, and also what lists are strong (NewCrons mopped up), and what lists I don't need to worry about as much (Eldar with 3 Serpents aren't near as scary). So I've decided to take a Living Artillery list:
For most tourneys, Biovores can be a situational thing, because they can't contribute if the opponent is meched up. But with Da Boyz limits on dedicated transports, that goes away, and with some missions focus on board control, Necron warrior blobs can be so dominant, so Living Artillery seems like the best option even though I have to give up access to Malanthropes, Dimacharons, Tyrannocytes, and all formations.
Some interesting things about the newcrons from a test game I had.
1) 20 Termagants were locked in combat with 2 Tomb Blades for 8!!! rounds of combat.
2) 2 Wraiths multi-assaulted a Carnifex and a Tyrannocyte. After a long, long time, the Tyrannocyte came out of it with 1 wound left.
3) I charged 3 Warriors with a Tyrannofex. It took 5 rounds of combat to finish them.
4) Necrons can shrug off devourer shots like nobody's business.
That's why I don't play close-combat bugs, at least not competitively. With the exception of the dimachaeron, they really aren't very efficient in terms of cc-output, and if you run a cc-focused Tyranid army, you will hurt yourself against some of the better shooty armies.
I'm not surprised at all about the resiliency of the Newcrons. With the lack of AP2 shooting, even a 3+ Immortal in a Decurion detachment is equivalent to a 2+ model (and that isn't counting the re-roll 1's for RP). Combine that with Zahndrekh, who can let the army re-roll failed Morale/pinning tests and you've got a truly resilient army. The best way to beat them now is through board control. Kill off their mobile units and lock them into their side of board. Then take the objectives. Unfortunately with a lot of the denial lists that exist currently, that may be easier said than done.
BTW, I think that your list is the right direction when going up against Necrons. More bodies to lock them up is probably the best way to deal with them.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I think that your list is the right direction when going up against Necrons. More bodies to lock them up is probably the best way to deal with them.
The bodies will also be Key against Eldar. I expect most lists to have 2 Wraith Knights, and a Wraith Lord. Also I expect most Dark Eldar to include Cronos and Talos. 'Da Boyz comp has created a weird situation that many armies will be looking to MC's, and without Forgeworld, Tyranid just can't compete with the better MC's available to most other armies.
I been going over the warlord traits and it seams to me the Command Traits table is the best table to pick from for Null deployment style list. While Strategic Traits has the reroll trait but the rest don't really help the list at all.
The command table only has one that's not any good. and it not bad we just have it already. The rest help with one faze or another. What do you guys think about the warlord tables.
shadowfinder wrote: I been going over the warlord traits and it seams to me the Command Traits table is the best table to pick from for Null deployment style list. While Strategic Traits has the reroll trait but the rest don't really help the list at all.
The command table only has one that's not any good. and it not bad we just have it already. The rest help with one faze or another. What do you guys think about the warlord tables.
Strategic is hands down the best, even if going for null deployment Nids. The only one that will probably see little use is the Pinning (but even then, can stop units going for Objectives for first turn). Every other gives you Stealth in Ruins or Stealth in Night Fighting, re-roll your reserves, make your opponent less likely to get reserves on the field or Outflank some units since Infiltrate gives Outflank to D3 units and Warlord.
Pertruabo wrote: So guys
Im going to submit my nids order,I'm going to order
3 Malanthropes
1 Barbed Hierodule
3 Biovore
6 Lictors
1 Tyrant
1 Mawloc
1 Tervigon
any tips on anything I should get again?
My recommendation would be:
Drop 2 malanthropes.
Since lictors compete in the same slot as the malanthrope, drop 1 lictor.
Get 3 Forgeworld meoitic spores (to be used as mucolids).
shadowfinder wrote: I been going over the warlord traits and it seams to me the Command Traits table is the best table to pick from for Null deployment style list. While Strategic Traits has the reroll trait but the rest don't really help the list at all.
The command table only has one that's not any good. and it not bad we just have it already. The rest help with one faze or another. What do you guys think about the warlord tables.
Strategic is hands down the best, even if going for null deployment Nids. The only one that will probably see little use is the Pinning (but even then, can stop units going for Objectives for first turn). Every other gives you Stealth in Ruins or Stealth in Night Fighting, re-roll your reserves, make your opponent less likely to get reserves on the field or Outflank some units since Infiltrate gives Outflank to D3 units and Warlord.
I thought the same. Tell I looked at my Null list and how the work in general.
Stealth night fight is only on the first turn when only the spore mines are on the table. So not really useful.
Stealth ruins is good. The reroll for reserves is very good for a null list.
-1 reserve rolls for vs. most armies is not that good really. Most armies have no reserves unless fliers.
The pinning is just bad.
The Master of ambush is useless as I am deep striking or reserving everything already.
So out of the 6 traits only two are useful good.
Compare that to the Command traits.
The first allows your units to have LD 10 for test in a 12' bubble. This works vs. leadership teat or take a wound attacks and such things. Instant killing a Fex with that power is not as likely now.
The next make the enemy units test on the lowest LD in the unit. Our scream, and Horror powers work better with this. Also if you remember fear test. The move though cover power we have so its not that great. Not bad but useless for us.
The next gives us +1 inch to our run charge rolls. Can be use full after we land.
The 5th trait is rerolls all 1 to hit in the shooting in a 12 ' bubble. In my mind that is huge for our units that don't have twin linked.
the 6th trait is reroll all 1's to hit in assault. in a 12' bubble. So the give a kind of preferred enemy to any combat unit that nearby they tyrant. that's pretty good to me.
5 out of 6 are decent to very good.
Compared with Strategic with only 2 that are good . The Command traits just seam better to me for a Null type list. The chance of getting one of 2 useful trait vs. getting 1 or 5 seams better to me.
Why these are good to me? Before the Flyrants would be up the board alone but now.....The tyrant is going to be right up around the action, if he was setting back by himself then these wouldn't any good. But he is not. Null list put your army right in the opponents face and the warlord is right their too..
I'm I wrong or missing something in this reasoning? Please point out.
Also with the passing of LVO we have seen a new play style for Tyranids emerge. It is not really new but has been out of favor for a while. Null deployment.
The three styles I see now competitive are::
1: Flying MC spam
2: Trapdoor spider style with a barbed hierodule and other forge world goodies as the center pieces.
3: A Null deployment with a focus on MSU and a lot of spore mines.
4: a mix of two of these possibly
Each of these list have strong points about them. The question is which one has the edge in competitive play? What are strengths and weakness of each play style? Whatare the good match up and bad ones? Or which has the fewer bad match up?
Each list type makes us relook at units that we may have written off as no good. I thought it would be good to get peoples thoughts on this and what they are seeing in their area in response to the surprising win at LVO. Or if it has had no effect at all.
For my self I Love playing Null deployment list. In 5th ed. that is all I played and it was great fun. I am personally looking forward to finding out how null style Tyranid will effect the meta in the weeks to come. I am trying it out in three week at a local RRT.
Pertruabo wrote:So guys
Im going to submit my nids order,I'm going to order
3 Malanthropes
1 Barbed Hierodule
3 Biovore
6 Lictors
1 Tyrant
1 Mawloc
1 Tervigon
any tips on anything I should get again?
Agree on most of the advice. My main other idea would be to get 5 Lictors and Deathleaper instead of 6 - you can always proxy DL as a Lictor, but that lets you run DL assassin brood should you ever want to.
A few Qs - What's the consensus on the Neurothrope's power, does it need to roll to hit?
- I'm having huge issues killing IKs. Admittedly I got unlucky - last game I hit one from 3 back sides with 12 TL-Dev shots onto each facing, and 2 crone missles into the front. Caused only 1 HP :|. Any tips aside from roll better?
Great write up. This has given me some ideas for my list as well. How did your opponents handle you deployment style for Tyranids. Null deployment has not been played really since 5th ed. Do you think it caught them off guard or made them make mistakes in deployment or movement in the first two turns?
shadowfinder wrote: I thought the same. Tell I looked at my Null list and how the work in general. Stealth night fight is only on the first turn when only the spore mines are on the table. So not really useful. Stealth ruins is good. The reroll for reserves is very good for a null list. -1 reserve rolls for vs. most armies is not that good really. Most armies have no reserves unless fliers. The pinning is just bad. The Master of ambush is useless as I am deep striking or reserving everything already. So out of the 6 traits only two are useful good.
Compare that to the Command traits. The first allows your units to have LD 10 for test in a 12' bubble. This works vs. leadership teat or take a wound attacks and such things. Instant killing a Fex with that power is not as likely now. The next make the enemy units test on the lowest LD in the unit. Our scream, and Horror powers work better with this. Also if you remember fear test. The move though cover power we have so its not that great. Not bad but useless for us. The next gives us +1 inch to our run charge rolls. Can be use full after we land. The 5th trait is rerolls all 1 to hit in the shooting in a 12 ' bubble. In my mind that is huge for our units that don't have twin linked. the 6th trait is reroll all 1's to hit in assault. in a 12' bubble. So the give a kind of preferred enemy to any combat unit that nearby they tyrant. that's pretty good to me. 5 out of 6 are decent to very good.
Compared with Strategic with only 2 that are good . The Command traits just seam better to me for a Null type list. The chance of getting one of 2 useful trait vs. getting 1 or 5 seams better to me.
Why these are good to me? Before the Flyrants would be up the board alone but now.....The tyrant is going to be right up around the action, if he was setting back by himself then these wouldn't any good. But he is not. Null list put your army right in the opponents face and the warlord is right their too..
I'm I wrong or missing something in this reasoning? Please point out.
Night Fighting lasts throughout the game if I am not mistaken. Master of Ambush allows options - if you want to Infiltrate your Flyrants to get an alpha strike, you now can. Agreed about pinning though, it's re-rollable
The strategic traits have army wide benefits. Command traits turn your Warlord into a lynchpin (which he already was with Synapse) and the benefits disappear once he goes down.
shadowfinder wrote: I thought the same. Tell I looked at my Null list and how the work in general.
Stealth night fight is only on the first turn when only the spore mines are on the table. So not really useful.
Stealth ruins is good. The reroll for reserves is very good for a null list.
-1 reserve rolls for vs. most armies is not that good really. Most armies have no reserves unless fliers.
The pinning is just bad.
The Master of ambush is useless as I am deep striking or reserving everything already.
So out of the 6 traits only two are useful good.
Compare that to the Command traits.
The first allows your units to have LD 10 for test in a 12' bubble. This works vs. leadership teat or take a wound attacks and such things. Instant killing a Fex with that power is not as likely now.
The next make the enemy units test on the lowest LD in the unit. Our scream, and Horror powers work better with this. Also if you remember fear test. The move though cover power we have so its not that great. Not bad but useless for us.
The next gives us +1 inch to our run charge rolls. Can be use full after we land.
The 5th trait is rerolls all 1 to hit in the shooting in a 12 ' bubble. In my mind that is huge for our units that don't have twin linked.
the 6th trait is reroll all 1's to hit in assault. in a 12' bubble. So the give a kind of preferred enemy to any combat unit that nearby they tyrant. that's pretty good to me.
5 out of 6 are decent to very good.
Compared with Strategic with only 2 that are good . The Command traits just seam better to me for a Null type list. The chance of getting one of 2 useful trait vs. getting 1 or 5 seams better to me.
Why these are good to me? Before the Flyrants would be up the board alone but now.....The tyrant is going to be right up around the action, if he was setting back by himself then these wouldn't any good. But he is not. Null list put your army right in the opponents face and the warlord is right their too..
I'm I wrong or missing something in this reasoning? Please point out.
Night Fighting lasts throughout the game if I am not mistaken. Master of Ambush allows options - if you want to Infiltrate your Flyrants to get an alpha strike, you now can. Agreed about pinning though, it's re-rollable
The strategic traits have army wide benefits. Command traits turn your Warlord into a lynchpin (which he already was with Synapse) and the benefits disappear once he goes down.
EDIT: Looking forward to that batrep
Night fight last the first turn only sadly. Also the master of ambush defeats the purposes of the null reserve.
Pertruabo wrote: So guys
Im going to submit my nids order,I'm going to order
3 Malanthropes
1 Barbed Hierodule
3 Biovore
6 Lictors
1 Tyrant
1 Mawloc
1 Tervigon
any tips on anything I should get again?
My recommendation would be:
Drop 2 malanthropes.
Since lictors compete in the same slot as the malanthrope, drop 1 lictor.
Get 3 Forgeworld meoitic spores (to be used as mucolids).
Get 1 more Tyrant.
Ok cool,get 3 Meoitic spores as in 3 models or 3 sets?
Also I made a list for 500 points
1x Flyrant
(standard loadout)
1x ripper swarm
1x warrior brood
Venom cannon
1x Biovore
1x Biovore
1x Biovore
Why Biovore,some of you may ask.I like Biovores,they remind me of the plasma bug from Starship troopers that shot down their fleets in the 1st movie,hope they perform the same thing in the game.
Also,does anyone here have the new Zoanthropes? I'm going to get some custom battlefoam trays and I need to see how high they are
rigeld2 wrote: I null deployed against Tau in The Relic the other day and had an amazing turn when I came in. Tau shooting almost took the game from me though.
It's very useful to have those 3 3 wound units that you can hide out of LoS to allow you to null deploy.
Bastion helps with that, tau really struggle with av 14 outside 18 inches.
Pertruabo wrote: So guys
Im going to submit my nids order,I'm going to order
3 Malanthropes
1 Barbed Hierodule
3 Biovore
6 Lictors
1 Tyrant
1 Mawloc
1 Tervigon
any tips on anything I should get again?
My recommendation would be:
Drop 2 malanthropes.
Since lictors compete in the same slot as the malanthrope, drop 1 lictor.
Get 3 Forgeworld meoitic spores (to be used as mucolids).
Get 1 more Tyrant.
Ok cool,get 3 Meoitic spores as in 3 models or 3 sets?
Also I made a list for 500 points
1x Flyrant
(standard loadout)
1x ripper swarm
1x warrior brood
Venom cannon
1x Biovore
1x Biovore
1x Biovore
Why Biovore,some of you may ask.I like Biovores,they remind me of the plasma bug from Starship troopers that shot down their fleets in the 1st movie,hope they perform the same thing in the game.
Also,does anyone here have the new Zoanthropes? I'm going to get some custom battlefoam trays and I need to see how high they are
Three models. Make sure to build them up a bit on cork or something since they're smaller than Mucolids (modelling for advantage shindigs)
List looks good. I think I would personally change the Rippers to Termagants and give an interventing model save for the Warriors/Biovores.
I have the Zoanthrope - it's a bit shorter than the finecast one if you have one of those.
Feel free to join the discussion. Would be interesting to hear how it's played in your regions, in Sweden many tournaments are guided by a 'Swefaq' who rules against ObSec in this case.
Why Biovore,some of you may ask.I like Biovores,they remind me of the plasma bug from Starship troopers that shot down their fleets in the 1st movie,hope they perform the same thing in the game.
Per chance, are you thinking of Exocrines? They actually do sport a plasma cannon (of a sort).
Biovores are actually a fairly popular unit choice, just their specialty is a bit niche in the current competitive environment.
Also,does anyone here have the new Zoanthropes? I'm going to get some custom battlefoam trays and I need to see how high they are
Here you go:
Spoiler:
The new ones are a good deal bulkier than the old ones as can be seen.
--------------------------------------
As an aside, the new Harlequins are mean. I had a match against the standard Troupe detachment (3x troupes, 6x Jetbikes, 1x Void Weaver, 1x Solitaire, 4x Mastery Level 2 Shadow Seers, 2x Death Jesters) and it was an absolute bloodbath. Their powers + Telepathy more or less completely shut down my shooting and they deleted everything they came into contact with before any retaliation.
Why Biovore,some of you may ask.I like Biovores,they remind me of the plasma bug from Starship troopers that shot down their fleets in the 1st movie,hope they perform the same thing in the game.
Per chance, are you thinking of Exocrines? They actually do sport a plasma cannon (of a sort).
Biovores are actually a fairly popular unit choice, just their specialty is a bit niche in the current competitive environment.
Also,does anyone here have the new Zoanthropes? I'm going to get some custom battlefoam trays and I need to see how high they are
Here you go:
Spoiler:
The new ones are a good deal bulkier than the old ones as can be seen.
--------------------------------------
As an aside, the new Harlequins are mean. I had a match against the standard Troupe detachment (3x troupes, 6x Jetbikes, 1x Void Weaver, 1x Solitaire, 4x Mastery Level 2 Shadow Seers, 2x Death Jesters) and it was an absolute bloodbath. Their powers + Telepathy more or less completely shut down my shooting and they deleted everything they came into contact with before any retaliation.
Well I have read the Exocrine entry,and for that big ass model with only 24" cannon,I think I'll stick with Biovores
and thanks for the Zoan measurements!
Guys do I have the null deployment idea right here?
Deploy only with a bunch of spore mines or mucalids on the field - perferablly hidden or out of LoS.
Opponent potters about turn1, maybe tries to kill a few.
Turn 2+ bring in reserves?
If so my questions then are:
If you're up VS an alpha strike list, how does coming in (potentially piecemeal using reserve rolls) mitigate the opponent alpha striking you turn 2?
Isnt there a chance that with some bad reserve rolls, units come in piecemeal and maybe even late?
It gives board control early to your opponent?
Your opponent might get lucky or good and blow the spores away turn one meaning its an auto loss?
Whats the overall strategy behind it?
Im just curious as to the nuances and advantages of it.
So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.
So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD
Dakka flyrant
E grubs
3 lictors
2 deep striking rippers
3 mawlocs
Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers
Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs
Venomthrope
3 mucolids
Tyrannofex
E grubs
Bastion/comms
I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.
I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.
bobmgee wrote: So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.
So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD
Dakka flyrant
E grubs
3 lictors
2 deep striking rippers
3 mawlocs
Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers
Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs
Venomthrope
3 mucolids
Tyrannofex
E grubs
Bastion/comms
I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.
I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.
The codex isn't top tier, it is Sean who is top tier.
bobmgee wrote: So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.
So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD
Dakka flyrant
E grubs
3 lictors
2 deep striking rippers
3 mawlocs
Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers
Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs
Venomthrope
3 mucolids
Tyrannofex
E grubs
Bastion/comms
I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.
I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.
Ratius wrote: Guys do I have the null deployment idea right here?
Deploy only with a bunch of spore mines or mucalids on the field - perferablly hidden or out of LoS.
Opponent potters about turn1, maybe tries to kill a few.
Turn 2+ bring in reserves?
If so my questions then are:
If you're up VS an alpha strike list, how does coming in (potentially piecemeal using reserve rolls) mitigate the opponent alpha striking you turn 2?
Isnt there a chance that with some bad reserve rolls, units come in piecemeal and maybe even late?
It gives board control early to your opponent?
Your opponent might get lucky or good and blow the spores away turn one meaning its an auto loss?
Whats the overall strategy behind it?
Im just curious as to the nuances and advantages of it.
Null deployment I think is about flexibility mainly. Controlling the action. Tyranids are shot to mid range army for shooting. this type of deployment allows shooting to get close with out losing it like walking across the board. Most of our best units get focused down before the can do much. With everything dropping in at once target priority becomes a issue as well and you have all of a sodden provided a lot of high threat target that must be handled. Causing a dam if you don' dam if you do situation for you opponent is always good for you in most cases.
For you first question. Vs. an alpha strike army Ideally you go second. this negates two rounds of his shooting. This hurts a alpha strike army cause they want to be shooting at you. 2nd you get to shot them first doing damage and crippling critical parts of their army. As for reserves you can work around coming in piece meal by building in to your list a +1 for reserves or using a bastion with a coms relay you can get rerolls to come in. These will help a lot with the issues of reserves. Going first also lessens the pain of shooting a lot in the same way. You still get to hurt first and usually very hard. I have had only a few games where I didn't do a good amount of damage the turn I came in on. Bad dice will happen.
2nd question: I feel it gives the allusion of board control to your opponent. If you place your spore mine to block lanes of movements and objectives. Truly I hope my opponent moves around the board.. With a army like ours, your opponent moving around is usually a good thing for us. Another thing to think about. With a castling army they hate when we drop in close. They only have one turn to kill everything before combat happens.
3rd question:: Knowing the army you are facing is very important. Knowing how many units he can kill in turn one is important. All you have to do is add one unit more to you deploying and he can't do it. Having at lest 6 units that can deploy is very useful I like the spore field formation as it gives you the ability to place units all over the table plus they can come back 4+. It cost 90 points to give you the option to null deploy if you want.
For me this style of play allow me to decide where the fight is and on my terms. I dictate they where and when and that is huge. Being to counter deploy after seeing their moves and to capitalize on their mistakes is a huge bonus.
Depending on what you drop in the option a numerous. Having 6 MC in your lines or 40 plus little bugs are just something you can't ignore which is the fun of the list.
bobmgee wrote: So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.
So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD
Dakka flyrant
E grubs
3 lictors
2 deep striking rippers
3 mawlocs
Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers
Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs
Venomthrope
3 mucolids
Tyrannofex
E grubs
Bastion/comms
I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.
I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.
Yeah, it was a blast alright....as in, he blasted me off the table.
bobmgee wrote: So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.
So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD
Dakka flyrant
E grubs
3 lictors
2 deep striking rippers
3 mawlocs
Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers
Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs
Venomthrope
3 mucolids
Tyrannofex
E grubs
Bastion/comms
I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.
I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.
Yeah, it was a blast alright....as in, he blasted me off the table.
I am looking forward to this two as I feel Tryanids would be a hard counter to his null deployment type list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Thanks for the very interesting reply shadow, some interesting ideas!
Hope it was insightful as it is my preferred play style in 5th. I so glad it back now in some type of format. It will catch a lot of player off guard. It will also take you some time to use it correctly as it takes a few of the go to unit away like malanthrops or venoms. It is a different mind set in playing for sure.
Units like the tfex, warrior, Pyrovores ( yes I said them ) Dima, tervagon, and even the Swarmlord are options. It is a outside the box style of play for sure.
I know a guy in 5th that ran 18 warriors in pods and did well with them. Then it was a crazy list. I am interested in how something like could work now as well. should be fun to find out.
You can only fit 6 Warriors in a pod nowadays, and it's kind of pointless because Shrikes now cost the same points and achieve the same thing more or less.
Pyrovores in pods are great, and probably the most legit thing you mentioned, all the rest can work however, although Swarmlord and Tervigon are pretty hard to justify for the points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bobmgee wrote: So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.
So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD
Dakka flyrant
E grubs
3 lictors
2 deep striking rippers
3 mawlocs
Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers
Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs
Venomthrope
3 mucolids
Tyrannofex
E grubs
Bastion/comms
I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.
I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.
I think this is a really solid looking list. Make sure you play the TFex carefully! Really good list though.
SHUPPET wrote: You can only fit 6 Warriors in a pod nowadays, and it's kind of pointless because Shrikes now cost the same points and achieve the same thing more or less.
Pyrovores in pods are great, and probably the most legit thing you mentioned, all the rest can work however, although Swarmlord and Tervigon are pretty hard to justify for the points.
Depending on the list the Swarmlord has a place and the Tervigon as well. I wouldn't run both together.
With the changes to how pods work you can only take 6 warriors that is true never said they could take 9. But I did say in 5th for the nine warriors in a pod not now. In 5th people thought that list was terrible with all the str 8 shooting around then. But it did really well in the hands of the guy playing it. Even VS. space wolf long fang spam which was our bane in 5th ed.
While shrikes are good, warriors are a little more survivable when you pod them in with there 4+ armor save. If they are caught out of cover (Failed charge or something), I don't have to worry about bolter fire taking them out like shrikes. Are the optimal no. Could the work with in a list, yes. They can threaten any target for the most part baring a land raider.
You don't have to take 6. Even 4 in the back field is a good threat and can't really be ignored like.
I know that the drop pod mechanics have changed and I was highlighting why this particular use of them has become even effective than it was, in response to your post about trying it out in 7th, hence my use of the word "nowadays".
S8 shooting isn't the bane of Warriors by any means, they are actually more tanky to S8 shooting than most our dex. S8 blasts are their bane.
SHUPPET wrote: I know that the drop pod mechanics have changed and I was highlighting why this particular use of them has become even effective than it was, in response to your post about trying it out in 7th, hence my use of the word "nowadays".
S8 shooting isn't the bane of Warriors by any means, they are actually more tanky to S8 shooting than most our dex. S8 blasts are their bane.
bobmgee wrote: So Sean's success at LVO has tipped my interest back into my nids. I like the null deployment tactics he used and it just goes to show that nids aren't just the 3 flyrant ally everyone wants. I want to play reserve heavy because I think that's the way to go with nids. Other than null deployment I think the herodule is the way to go.
So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD
Dakka flyrant
E grubs
3 lictors
2 deep striking rippers
3 mawlocs
Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers
Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs
Venomthrope
3 mucolids
Tyrannofex
E grubs
Bastion/comms
I think Sean has proven that the codex everyone hated has become mid or even top tier.
I really look forward to seeing the report between Sean and jy2. Should be a blast.
Need more spore mines and mucloids!
My thoughts exactly. 3 units is not enough to null deploy. Although they do have to also destroy the bastion, you ideally want at least 6 or 7 units I think. I will try out a list with 6 vs drop pod marines (who probably have the best chance of tabling me) and let you know how I do!
S8 shooting isn't the bane of Warriors by any means, they are actually more tanky to S8 shooting than most our dex. S8 blasts are their bane.
Still can't believe they are not t5 :/
It's so annoying, I mean its not a super common counter, but it IS super hard counter, making taking any significant number of Warriors/Shrikes/Ravs a game of scissors paper rock, except one where you don't necessarily win if you paper their rock, but you are very likely to lose if they scissors your paper. I think it's just bad design, they would be better designed and just as balanced with T5 and 2W or something similar.
So here's my take on null deployment nids.
Tyranid CAD
Dakka flyrant
E grubs
3 lictors
2 deep striking rippers
3 mawlocs
Tyrannocyte
5 barbed stranglers
Leviathan detachment
2 dakka flyrants
E grubs
Venomthrope
3 mucolids
Tyrannofex
E grubs
Bastion/comms
So as a newbie Null deployment Nid player, do I have this right?
1. Deployment is: only mucolids (perferably hidden behind LoS terrain or the Bastion), bastion with comms and Venomthrope within the bastion?
2. You deploy the bastion on the edge of Nid deployment zone?
3. Venom + bastion give turn 2 deepstrikers 5+ inv ?
4. Rest of the deep strikers land to counter where opponent has moved?
5. Flyrants - do they fly on or deepstrike? Situation dependant?
6. Should you ever outflank / infiltrate Lictors? Or ?
7. Everything else deepstrikes?
I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.
For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.
If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.
For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.
If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.
If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.
For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.
If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.
If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?
Agreed, but you would be amazed how often you can convince them to group them together.
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
Mucolid -> 15 points left
Crone -> Provisional based on missions
Bastion (Comms Relay, Void Shield)
Skyblight
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)
Crone
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Obviously I reserve the small stuff, and try to keep it off until I've eliminated some threats.
It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.
For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.
If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.
how does that limit you to 2 flryants? CAD + skyblight is 3. you could go leviathan + skyblight if for w/e reason you wanted 4 HQ.
i used HVC on my harpies for flank shots on armor/IK/whatever. not as good now after the FMC/VS/assault changes, but still usable and now harder to punch out of the air.
gigasnail wrote: how does that limit you to 2 flryants? CAD + skyblight is 3. you could go leviathan + skyblight if for w/e reason you wanted 4 HQ.
i used HVC on my harpies for flank shots on armor/IK/whatever. not as good now after the FMC/VS/assault changes, but still usable and now harder to punch out of the air.
Going CAD limits me to 2, Adding Skyblight gets me to 3 which is good. I'm just not sure about the Harpies.
I don't want to go Leviathan because of the crappy warlord traits, and I feel like I need the bastion, because I've heard terrain is unreliable, and its hard to keep a single Venom alive long enough to get FMCs Airborne, and Leviathan doesn't allow a fortification.
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.
For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.
If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.
If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?
Agreed, but you would be amazed how often you can convince them to group them together.
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
Mucolid -> 15 points left
Crone -> Provisional based on missions
Bastion (Comms Relay, Void Shield)
Skyblight
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)
Crone
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Obviously I reserve the small stuff, and try to keep it off until I've eliminated some threats.
It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.
To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.
For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.
If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.
If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?
Agreed, but you would be amazed how often you can convince them to group them together.
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
Mucolid -> 15 points left
Crone -> Provisional based on missions
Bastion (Comms Relay, Void Shield)
Skyblight
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)
Crone
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Obviously I reserve the small stuff, and try to keep it off until I've eliminated some threats.
It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.
To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)
That is one of the other options. CAD + Skytyrant. Can't take a VSG, only allowed formations are ADL, Bastion, and Skyshield. VSG can't take a comms relay anyways. But skytyrant is a consideration. Also Deathleaper's Assassin Brood, and possibly bioblast node or Living Artillery. Or just run all 3 of my Tyrannocytes.
I'm not sure Eldar and Dark Eldar are as bleak as you indicate. Modern Eldar rely almost completely on Wave Serpents for anti Air, and I get armor saves against them. Dark Eldar rely on poison, and I get armor saves against them. They can do damange, but not a ton. I'm more worried about my ability to do damage back. Barbie could pop a wave serpent a turn, or Kill a Wraith Knight. 2 Harpies can put one hull point on a serpent a turn, and have no shot of ever killing a wraith knight. The Gargoyles help with the wraith knights a bit in the form of tarpits, but aren't quite as good.
I don't go CAD + Leviathan for personal reasons, because I think it is a violation of sportsmanship. I have considered CAD + Leviathan with a personal limit on Leviathan to things that would fit in an allied detachment.
krootman. wrote: What are the missions being played at this event?
They haven't announced them yet. Last year they were eternal war with a few other end of game scoring things thrown in like Table quarters. If I recall 4 of the 5 had Kill points as a primary or secondary.
tag8833 wrote: I'm considering dusting off skyblight for an upcoming GT that doesn't allow LOW or Forgeworld. It appears that they are also running allies RAW, so no CAD + Ally. Reports have terrain being Hit and Miss, and so I feel like I need to add a Bastion to keep a venom alive long enough to get my army airborne. The problem is, that limits me to 2 Flyrants, and Try as I might, it feels like 3 are needed to reach critical mass against many top tier armies that I expect to see. So that brings me back to skyblight.
For a while the consensus was that STC's were the way to go for Harpies. With the Newcron codex, it seems like HVC's would perform better against Warriors Spam, and I've always preferred it for help against vehicles anyways. But its been months now since I've run Harpies in anything but the fluffiest of games. I took Crones to LVO, and they served me well because they could be Anti-Mech (Turn 1 fire 2 missiles), Mixed (Turn 2, Vector strike a Vehicle lay the flamer template over infantry), or Clean up Crew. (Turn 4-5 vector strike any one model unit, lay flame template over any larger unit). Meanwhile, the Harpy seemingly has to wait 2+ turns before it can bring its maximum firepower to bear. Infantry is going to be in the backfield, while vehicles advance. The bombing run happens in the movement phase, so I don't have the option of popping a transport, and then bombing the contents.
If I roll "Master of Ambush" is it worth keeping it so that I can outflank Harpies, and bring more of their firepower to bear on turn 2? Is there any secret to getting good mileage out of the Harpy Bombs, or will I end up Vector striking at S5 most of the time? It is worth it to try to manipulate my opponent into moving vehicles into a tight group so that I can try to hit 2 with the blast? Are there any other tricks anyone has for maximizing Harpies.
If you have flyrants with e grub, the first thing your opponent will do is spread out his vehicles. I personally am not a fan of harpies and crones because of how fast they die, and like you said it takes more then one turn to hull out a tank, or kill a vehicle. What kind of list were you thinking and how many sources are allowed?
Agreed, but you would be amazed how often you can convince them to group them together.
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
Mucolid -> 15 points left
Crone -> Provisional based on missions
Bastion (Comms Relay, Void Shield)
Skyblight
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)
Crone
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Obviously I reserve the small stuff, and try to keep it off until I've eliminated some threats.
It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.
To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)
That is one of the other options. CAD + Skytyrant. Can't take a VSG, only allowed formations are ADL, Bastion, and Skyshield. VSG can't take a comms relay anyways. But skytyrant is a consideration. Also Deathleaper's Assassin Brood, and possibly bioblast node or Living Artillery. Or just run all 3 of my Tyrannocytes.
I'm not sure Eldar and Dark Eldar are as bleak as you indicate. Modern Eldar rely almost completely on Wave Serpents for anti Air, and I get armor saves against them. Dark Eldar rely on poison, and I get armor saves against them. They can do damange, but not a ton. I'm more worried about my ability to do damage back. Barbie could pop a wave serpent a turn, or Kill a Wraith Knight. 2 Harpies can put one hull point on a serpent a turn, and have no shot of ever killing a wraith knight. The Gargoyles help with the wraith knights a bit in the form of tarpits, but aren't quite as good.
I don't go CAD + Leviathan for personal reasons, because I think it is a violation of sportsmanship. I have considered CAD + Leviathan with a personal limit on Leviathan to things that would fit in an allied detachment.
krootman. wrote: What are the missions being played at this event?
They haven't announced them yet. Last year they were eternal war with a few other end of game scoring things thrown in like Table quarters. If I recall 4 of the 5 had Kill points as a primary or secondary.
Ah I didn't realize you were not using cad plus Levi for personal reasons, fair enough.
So with eldar, I can only speak from my personal experience, but I tend to force you to engage my knights and try to make you jink. I have 3 far seers in my current list and vs flying tyrants I'll make sure all 3 have presence and prob attempt misfortune if I have to fire my serpents, and shrouded. Depending on the mission, the knights give me the ability to pick how I want to engage you,because you have to use your flyrants to pick off my objsec in order to win. You will have 5 turns most likely to fire the flyrants and the plan is to use that fact against you.p
Also I run holo fields and I have no issue kinking against the harpies missiles.
Also with the passing of LVO we have seen a new play style for Tyranids emerge. It is not really new but has been out of favor for a while. Null deployment.
The three styles I see now competitive are::
1: Flying MC spam
2: Trapdoor spider style with a barbed hierodule and other forge world goodies as the center pieces.
3: A Null deployment with a focus on MSU and a lot of spore mines.
4: a mix of two of these possibly
Each of these list have strong points about them. The question is which one has the edge in competitive play? What are strengths and weakness of each play style? Whatare the good match up and bad ones? Or which has the fewer bad match up?
Each list type makes us relook at units that we may have written off as no good. I thought it would be good to get peoples thoughts on this and what they are seeing in their area in response to the surprising win at LVO. Or if it has had no effect at all.
For my self I Love playing Null deployment list. In 5th ed. that is all I played and it was great fun. I am personally looking forward to finding out how null style Tyranid will effect the meta in the weeks to come. I am trying it out in three week at a local RRT.
Don't forget Skyblight. Combined with Leviathan, it is still really good.
Feel free to join the discussion. Would be interesting to hear how it's played in your regions, in Sweden many tournaments are guided by a 'Swefaq' who rules against ObSec in this case.
By RAW, they should be ObSec if they were spawned by troop tervigons. However, most tournaments rule against that. Even the ITC/LVO has FAQ'd it as no.
Ratius wrote: Guys do I have the null deployment idea right here?
Deploy only with a bunch of spore mines or mucalids on the field - perferablly hidden or out of LoS.
Opponent potters about turn1, maybe tries to kill a few.
Turn 2+ bring in reserves?
If so my questions then are:
If you're up VS an alpha strike list, how does coming in (potentially piecemeal using reserve rolls) mitigate the opponent alpha striking you turn 2?
Isnt there a chance that with some bad reserve rolls, units come in piecemeal and maybe even late?
It gives board control early to your opponent?
Your opponent might get lucky or good and blow the spores away turn one meaning its an auto loss?
Whats the overall strategy behind it?
Im just curious as to the nuances and advantages of it.
Null deployment doesn't necessarily means that you deploy the bare minimum. You need to evaluate your opponent's potential to really hurt your army with their alpha-strike and then deploy accordingly. For example, if they don't have much shooting, then deploy your flyrants and you are all but guaranteed to hurt him on T1. If they have decent shooting (and they are going 1st), then reserve any of your weaker units that can potentially give up First Blood. If they have strong shooting, then reserve all the valuable units and leave just the units that don't give up VP's/FB, especially ones that you can easily hide.
Also, if you are playing a null deployment list, then you better have a way to control your reserves. Either the comms relay with the bastion or aegis defence line, a character with the ability to manipulate reserves or you better pray that you get the right Warlord Trait.
Yes, most null deployment lists will give up board control. However, that is offset by the flexibility of the list to be almost anywhere at any time. With the exception of playing against ObSec armies, you can control/contest objectives almost anywhere. Where you will have problem, however, is against ObSec armies but then again, they give almost every other non-ObSec armies problems. It is just an inherently exploitable weakness of most null deployment lists. The only thing you can really do about that is to blast those units off the table with your offense.
You need to deploy more units than you think your opponent can reasonably handle. That is one of the reasons for MSU or massed spore mines/mucolids. They have potentially 6 units that can blow yours off the table? Then you need to deploy 7 units and so on.
The strategy of most null deployment lists is to control the Movement phase and to surgically eliminate specific parts of your opponent's threats. While you do lose some board control, you have the advantage of first strike against most opponent's armies.
luke1705 wrote: You want more lictors for 3 Mawlocs. Guiding them in is so important. I think the ratio you want to hit is at least 2 lictors/mawloc
Not necessarily.
Lictors acting as a homing beacon is just a benefit. You cannot rely on that tactic.
However, more lictors is good due to the MSU nature of such a list. They help to spread out the threat as well as the target priority and they can potentially do damage if ignored.
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
3 Rippers (DS) -> Provisional based on missions
Mucolid -> 15 points left
Crone -> Provisional based on missions
Bastion (Comms Relay, Void Shield)
Skyblight
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
15 Gargoyles
Harpy (HVC)
Harpy (HVC)
Crone
Tyrant (wings, EGrubs, 2 TL-Devourers)
Obviously I reserve the small stuff, and try to keep it off until I've eliminated some threats.
It lacks The Barbed Heirodule punch of my LVO list, but might be the best I can do for a Kill point Denial / Jump out on turn 5 list that would have done well in their missions from last year. If MSU or board presence is needed, I will rework it. I'm mainly worried how I match up against serpents, and Venom Spam. I know I lose to Tau, but such is the Lot for a Tyranid Flying Circus.
While I like Skyblight, I feel that you have too many non-flyrant flyers. 2 hive crones and 2 harpies? I'd recommend dropping the extra hive crone and go with either a mawloc or more of a MSU approach (with lictors and/or more ObSec ripper swarms).
Or run 4 flyrants with Leviathan + Skyblight. Hey, it's not Leviathan+CAD at least.
BTW, the void shield on the bastion is not projected. It only protects the bastion itself. With the exception of drop pod meltas, I don't think it is really worth it against the majority of the armies out there.
gigasnail wrote: how does that limit you to 2 flryants? CAD + skyblight is 3. you could go leviathan + skyblight if for w/e reason you wanted 4 HQ.
i used HVC on my harpies for flank shots on armor/IK/whatever. not as good now after the FMC/VS/assault changes, but still usable and now harder to punch out of the air.
Going CAD limits me to 2, Adding Skyblight gets me to 3 which is good. I'm just not sure about the Harpies.
I don't want to go Leviathan because of the crappy warlord traits, and I feel like I need the bastion, because I've heard terrain is unreliable, and its hard to keep a single Venom alive long enough to get FMCs Airborne, and Leviathan doesn't allow a fortification.
To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)
What are the missions being played at this event?
I disagree. Skyblight is good against Eldar IMO. 45 gargoyles are going to make the WK's stay away. Hive Crones can fire just 1 haywire missile just to keep the serpents jinking (that would help against shooting at the gargoyles) and flyrants can play more aggressively.
Against Dark Eldar, the matchups have reversed roles a long time ago already. DE just have major problems against massed FMC's unless they are running massed flyers of their own and even still, they will have problems against FMC's with 2+ cover.
I actually think that Skyblight+Leviathan would have done better against your mechdar than my Pentyrant list.
So I had a non-competitive game today against the new necrons. I realize the vast majority of this thread seems to be min / maxed tournament lists / players (who knew there were so many tournaments...), but it seems the most relevant thread to post. I honestly can't believe how resilient basic warrior blocks are. I could not put more than 3 down a turn, even when my scatter dice were on fire. Immortals were worse with the 3+ armor. Can anyone foresee any tactics to use against them these days? I realize it could have been much worse with wraiths or ghost arks thrown in, but it still seemed incredibly overpowered that his models would just ignore half of what I threw at him with reanimation.
Brief run down of the game below:
We played a special mission for a campaign game, he deployed in a 2 foot square in the center of the board, to one side, while I had deployment along the other 3 board edges, 6" in. His list was roughly 2 Triarch Stalkers, 3 tomb blades, 2 10 man squads of immortals with gauss blasters, 2 10 man squads of immortals with tesla, 2 15 man squads of warriors, a lord with warscythe, and a cryptek. He had some of the guys in a Decurion detachment, while 2 squads of Immortals weren't (I may be wrong, this is an estimation of his 1500 point list).
I had a Flyrant, wings, 2 TL Devourers, Regen, and Hive Commander, Venomthrope, Lictor, 11 genestealers w/ broodlord, 20 termagants w/ fleshborers, 20 termagants with devourers, 3 warriors w/ barbed strangler, Exocrine, Mawloc w/ regen, and Tryannofex.
The objective was to have as many points within 6" of the center of the board at game end, and I had my Flyrant and Exocrine in CC on the objective at the end, with the Tyrannofex marching down a flank picking off immortal squads. He had about 8 immortals and 1 warrior with the lord left in the center with 1 Stalker. I honestly think really lucky rolls in the last 2 turns of the game swung the outcome back into my favor.
The new Necrons - especially that of the Decurion detachment in the new codex - is built for resiliency. I am finding the offense isn't as great, especially against flying MC's or MC's with 2+ saves, but their durability is outstanding. However, they lack the mobility as they once did with night scythes. You can actually hold them in their own deployment zone (at least the majority of the army) with a more aggressive Tyranid ground force. If he is running a primarily walking army, then your best bet is to lock them up in combat with your gribblies or even with the TMC's. Prevent them from getting to the objectives and then you can take them yourselves.
We need a ground army to face Necrons in assault, sadly ground nids aren't exactly competitive from a TAC pov. Also Flayed Ones should beat the crap put of anything we have on CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another different topic, I run a Lictorshame list (with the spore field formation) against a Battleweagon Ork list in Vassal. The Ork player conceded on the beginning of my third turn after a Mawloc nuked his MANZ.
That being said, he made a lot of mistakes and if he had played smarter I'm not sure I could have bested him.
What's the optimal set up for Sktytyrant? I'm going to a 1250 tournament with some friends and was wondering how best to run it (shall also be using three Dakka Flyrants). I would feel bad about three Flyrants, but my opponents are bringing super heavies, FBSC and other power combos
To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)
What are the missions being played at this event?
I disagree. Skyblight is good against Eldar IMO. 45 gargoyles are going to make the WK's stay away. Hive Crones can fire just 1 haywire missile just to keep the serpents jinking (that would help against shooting at the gargoyles) and flyrants can play more aggressively.
Against Dark Eldar, the matchups have reversed roles a long time ago already. DE just have major problems against massed FMC's unless they are running massed flyers of their own and even still, they will have problems against FMC's with 2+ cover.
I actually think that Skyblight+Leviathan would have done better against your mechdar than my Pentyrant list.
I was more talking eldar then dark eldar, flyrants. Shred venom spam pretty easily. I have tested vs sky tyrant formation,and you don't have to much of an issue whittling it down to the point where 3 wks can smash into it to clean up. Now of course there are a lot of X factors, there but again the lack of objsec really hurts. I also wouldn't jink vs one haywire missile most of the time, but that is also situational.
I feel eldar, especially eldar with wks, can be a every problematic matchup for bugs.
To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)
What are the missions being played at this event?
I disagree. Skyblight is good against Eldar IMO. 45 gargoyles are going to make the WK's stay away. Hive Crones can fire just 1 haywire missile just to keep the serpents jinking (that would help against shooting at the gargoyles) and flyrants can play more aggressively.
Against Dark Eldar, the matchups have reversed roles a long time ago already. DE just have major problems against massed FMC's unless they are running massed flyers of their own and even still, they will have problems against FMC's with 2+ cover.
I actually think that Skyblight+Leviathan would have done better against your mechdar than my Pentyrant list.
I was more talking eldar then dark eldar, flyrants. Shred venom spam pretty easily. I have tested vs sky tyrant formation,and you don't have to much of an issue whittling it down to the point where 3 wks can smash into it to clean up. Now of course there are a lot of X factors, there but again the lack of objsec really hurts. I also wouldn't jink vs one haywire missile most of the time, but that is also situational.
I feel eldar, especially eldar with wks, can be a every problematic matchup for bugs.
I think you guys might be talking past one another, it sounds like you are talking Sky Tyrant, and he is talking Sky Blight. Sky Blight has three Broods of Objective secured Gargoyles. (That re-spawn )
Played an RTT yesterday. Running a weird format and Comp called Da Boyz. It came down to me running my Tyranids vs a Necron Decurion close combat list in the finals. I was tabled for the 2nd time in 7th edition, and the 1st time ever at a tournament. He rolled hot, and I rolled cold (Failed 4 of 5 grounding tests), but it was demoralizing, because it felt like I could play that game 1,000 times, and never win it.
The Mission:
Hammer and Anvil
Primary (20 Points): 6 Objectives fixed placement (2 at midfield, 2 at the edge of each player's deployment zone). 1 Point for each objective controlled at the end of your player turn.
Secondary (10 Points): Mark for Death 3 units of your opponent. He marked my gants and gargoyles. I marked his spider, Tomb Blades, and Scarabs.
Tertiary (3 Points): Last Blood, Linebreaker, Warlord.
He got 1st turn, so I counter deployed strongly to one side away from the wraiths, and decided to ignore them until I'd neutralized the Lychguard, Praetorians, and warriors. I swear I made his Lychguard take 100+ saves, but they just wouldn't die. There was one turn where the biovores did 13 wounds, and the Exocrine did 7, The flyrants did 9-10, my Warriors, and Tfex chipped in another 4-5, and he only lost 1 Lychguard. 2 Praetorians went 5 rounds of close combat with 2 warriors and a TFex before the Lychguard came in and bailed them out. I ended up killing 18 of his 20 warriors, all of his Scarabs, 6 of his 10 Immortals, 4 of his 10 Lychguard, 9 of his 10 Praetorians, and 1 tomb Blade, but he had so much left at the end. Scoring on the primary looked like this.
Turn 1. 4-4
Turn 2. 8-8
Turn 3. 11-11
Turn 4. 17-11
Turn 5. 23-11 (Tabling)
Turn 1 I failed a 4" charge with my Gargoyles into his Wraiths. I felt like I would have been able to tarpit them for at least a turn, which means they don't make it to my Exocrine and Biovores until turn 4, and maybe I make a better showing, but I still lose.
I think new crons are a serious problem for us Tyranids in any mission that requires board presence. In some ways, my list was about as good as you could hope for against them. I don't think my LVO list would have done any better (Maybe avoided a tabling, but would have lost the mission worse).
To be honest you are going to have a hell of a time vs eldar , and dark eldar with this list. You don't have enough ways to take advantage of cover, and the skyblight really holds you back. I know the restrictions placed on you are pretty silly, but you would almost be better off going with cad plus the sky tyrant formation with a void shield and coms (have you seen how huge those things are)
What are the missions being played at this event?
I disagree. Skyblight is good against Eldar IMO. 45 gargoyles are going to make the WK's stay away. Hive Crones can fire just 1 haywire missile just to keep the serpents jinking (that would help against shooting at the gargoyles) and flyrants can play more aggressively.
Against Dark Eldar, the matchups have reversed roles a long time ago already. DE just have major problems against massed FMC's unless they are running massed flyers of their own and even still, they will have problems against FMC's with 2+ cover.
I actually think that Skyblight+Leviathan would have done better against your mechdar than my Pentyrant list.
I was more talking eldar then dark eldar, flyrants. Shred venom spam pretty easily. I have tested vs sky tyrant formation,and you don't have to much of an issue whittling it down to the point where 3 wks can smash into it to clean up. Now of course there are a lot of X factors, there but again the lack of objsec really hurts. I also wouldn't jink vs one haywire missile most of the time, but that is also situational.
I feel eldar, especially eldar with wks, can be a every problematic matchup for bugs.
I think you guys might be talking past one another, it sounds like you are talking Sky Tyrant, and he is talking Sky Blight. Sky Blight has three Broods of Objective secured Gargoyles. (That re-spawn )
That may very well be true, theres so many formations in this game its hard to keep track of hahaha
Yeah new Crons are rough. They have a lot of good builds and I'm not even sure you ran into one of the best ones. Not saying it was bad - obviously it was quite good - but Necrons can be absolutely brutal when it comes to ground control. Basically you need to play missions that value ground control less, or shorten the game with null deployment in games where end-game ground presence is important. The durability of the Crons is a big issue for Flyrants but also for most Nids. Even when you ignore their armor save they still get 5+ FNP (or 4+ if you forego obsec but I'm not sure that's the best plan. Not just because of losing obsec but because you are required to take so many units that lack killing power and lose list building flexibility). I'm sure we'll see a lot of Crons in tournaments to come. They and Daemons I think are two of the best armies that we have some trouble dealing with. Volume of fire is nice, but 3+ 4+ FNP means that out of 9 wounds (typical Flyrant output) you lose 1.5 guys. Bad bad news unless the game lasts....forever approximately
4+ rerolling 1's in many cases. I went into the game thinking that the 3+ armor save Necrons were essentially like 2 Space marines. I had played this opponent in prep, and he had run warrior spam at me. I had lots of AP4, but all of those 3+ saves on T5 models were a giant problem. A Tfex and 2 Warriors will easily kill 6-8 space marines in 5 rounds of close combat. I failed to kill even a single Praetorian until the 5th round. Tyrants can down 4 or so space marines per shooting phase. Not so Against Crons. At no point in the game were both tyrants able to kill more than one model between both of them.
This is where having decent obsec units actually counts - necron decurions are incredibly resilient, but their damage output isn't that high. I think this was a conscious move on GW's part to try to balance minimum troop armies.
zerosignal wrote: This is where having decent obsec units actually counts - necron decurions are incredibly resilient, but their damage output isn't that high. I think this was a conscious move on GW's part to try to balance minimum troop armies.
That is how I kept it even until Turn 4. My Gants and rippers were scoring fools. The thing about OS scoring, though is it can be assaulted, and Lychguard, Wraiths, or Praetorians will kill most anything that they assault.
I'm worried if necrons remove the viability of large swaths of missions. For instance, try winning the Relic against big blocks of scoring, unkillable infantry. Its like end of game scoring vs Eldar Jetbikes. It is going to create a very big challenge for mission construction.
zerosignal wrote: This is where having decent obsec units actually counts - necron decurions are incredibly resilient, but their damage output isn't that high. I think this was a conscious move on GW's part to try to balance minimum troop armies.
That is how I kept it even until Turn 4. My Gants and rippers were scoring fools. The thing about OS scoring, though is it can be assaulted, and Lychguard, Wraiths, or Praetorians will kill most anything that they assault.
I'm worried if necrons remove the viability of large swaths of missions. For instance, try winning the Relic against big blocks of scoring, unkillable infantry. Its like end of game scoring vs Eldar Jetbikes. It is going to create a very big challenge for mission construction.
So this. I've been saying it since the first game I had against Newcrons. They're super durable in a CAD and stupid Durable in a Decurion. It really doesn't matter if they're not super killy if you're playing Eternal War missions as a primary in a Tournament format. They'll outlast just about anything. Their durability also makes it hard to steal First Blood from a well built Cron army which we all know is highly valuable at most competitive events.
Tyranids don't seem to have very many options that deal with bricks of Warriors well, much less the hard hitters like Wraiths, Praets, or Lychguard. Who knows maybe Mawloc spam will be the new black for Nids once lean and mean Newcron armies starting taking to the tables at tournaments.
Ok so I may be losing my marbles. I don't play Venomthropes (because reasons) but I could have SWORN that their shrouded rule affected the whole unit as long as one model was in range, like the VSG. My digital codex says quite the opposite. Am I crazy or is there a discrepancy here? Now o need to go double-check my Malanthrope in IA. I mean, I only used it for Flyrants so no blood no foul, but I'm really questioning a lot here. What's real? What isn't? How can I tell?
luke1705 wrote: Ok so I may be losing my marbles. I don't play Venomthropes (because reasons) but I could have SWORN that their shrouded rule affected the whole unit as long as one model was in range, like the VSG. My digital codex says quite the opposite. Am I crazy or is there a discrepancy here? Now o need to go double-check my Malanthrope in IA. I mean, I only used it for Flyrants so no blood no foul, but I'm really questioning a lot here. What's real? What isn't? How can I tell?
It only gives Shrouded to models in the bubble.
Now read what the Shrouded rule does.
Ok thanks guys. I forgot to cross-reference the third section of the rules to find out what the one does. I should know better by now. And I have some caffeine in me so I'm more rational and less hungry.
Honestly, though, what I'd like to talk about is the list that Nick Nanavati has been playing. That scares the crap out of me even more than Necron Decurion. Sean can probably shed some light on how to beat this, and I almost wound up tying it myself with my 4 flyrant variant of Sean's list, but it's bonkers:
Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch - Exalted Reward, Lesser Reward, Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Tzeentch - Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Nurgle - Locus of Fecundity (Feel No Pain for unit), Greater Reward, Lvl 2
Herald of Nurgle - Greater Reward, Lvl 2
11x Horrors
10x Horrors
8x Screamers
8x Screamers
8x Plague Drones with Champion - Venom Sting. Champion has a greater reward
Can any of you guys comment about how good or not good the Zoanthrope brood is when it's fully equiped with the Neurothrope upgrade? Since it's release i thought it would be a powerhouse but i haven't heard a peep about it beyond initial speculations. Thanks guys
luke1705 wrote: Ok thanks guys. I forgot to cross-reference the third section of the rules to find out what the one does. I should know better by now. And I have some caffeine in me so I'm more rational and less hungry.
Honestly, though, what I'd like to talk about is the list that Nick Nanavati has been playing. That scares the crap out of me even more than Necron Decurion. Sean can probably shed some light on how to beat this, and I almost wound up tying it myself with my 4 flyrant variant of Sean's list, but it's bonkers:
Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch - Exalted Reward, Lesser Reward, Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Tzeentch - Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Nurgle - Locus of Fecundity (Feel No Pain for unit), Greater Reward, Lvl 2
Herald of Nurgle - Greater Reward, Lvl 2
11x Horrors
10x Horrors
8x Screamers
8x Screamers
8x Plague Drones with Champion - Venom Sting. Champion has a greater reward
Inquisitor - 3x Servo Skulls
I'm was in love with that list as soon as I saw the battle report his buddy wrote up that featured it. What do Daemons need now that Deathstars "aren't as good any more"? MOAR DEATHSTARS!!!
shadowfinder wrote: I have a quick question for people that have used the Fighter Ace upgrade.
Is it worth it?
I have 40 points left in my list and I can take a biovore or this upgrade. Trying to decide.
I am playing ITC mission in the coming tournament if that helps or maters.
Thanks for the help.
If you are considering a single biovore vs the upgrade.. take the upgrade. If you have 2 biovores and are wondering if the full 3 is better take the full 3. The upgrade is 1 in 3 to be over powered and the 3/4 is very good. It comes out to 66% chance you get something amazing and 33% chance it is a waste of points. I used it in several tourneys and found it to be overall very good.. that said it has that random factor for 35 points which is just about dead on in terms of worth but close to being too expensive.
shadowfinder wrote: I have a quick question for people that have used the Fighter Ace upgrade.
Is it worth it?
I have 40 points left in my list and I can take a biovore or this upgrade. Trying to decide.
I am playing ITC mission in the coming tournament if that helps or maters.
Thanks for the help.
If you are considering a single biovore vs the upgrade.. take the upgrade. If you have 2 biovores and are wondering if the full 3 is better take the full 3. The upgrade is 1 in 3 to be over powered and the 3/4 is very good. It comes out to 66% chance you get something amazing and 33% chance it is a waste of points. I used it in several tourneys and found it to be overall very good.. that said it has that random factor for 35 points which is just about dead on in terms of worth but close to being too expensive.
Thanks for the thought on that. I have one biovore and was looking at adding one more for 2 total. or the upgrade. They randomness is a issue and at the same time it is not. I have some randomness in my list as it is and this just adds to it, just maybe a little too much for me. But I will try it out to see...
luke1705 wrote: Ok thanks guys. I forgot to cross-reference the third section of the rules to find out what the one does. I should know better by now. And I have some caffeine in me so I'm more rational and less hungry.
Honestly, though, what I'd like to talk about is the list that Nick Nanavati has been playing. That scares the crap out of me even more than Necron Decurion. Sean can probably shed some light on how to beat this, and I almost wound up tying it myself with my 4 flyrant variant of Sean's list, but it's bonkers:
Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch - Exalted Reward, Lesser Reward, Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Tzeentch - Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Nurgle - Locus of Fecundity (Feel No Pain for unit), Greater Reward, Lvl 2
Herald of Nurgle - Greater Reward, Lvl 2
11x Horrors
10x Horrors
8x Screamers
8x Screamers
8x Plague Drones with Champion - Venom Sting. Champion has a greater reward
Inquisitor - 3x Servo Skulls
This list should scare the living gak out of you, I play nick about once a week, every other week.....and this list walks all over everything I through at it. I mean some of our games are close, and this list requires a good pilot, but honestly it does very very well vs bugs.
I get the inevitable scaryness of disc-mounted heralds of Tzeench, screamers and fateweaver. But the Nurgle heralds confuse me; they can't join anything but the drones, and they're massively slowing them down.
How does this force work?
on my side, I'm finally considering poking some of the leviathan stuff.
My previous list is pretty standard: 5 tervigons, 3 big broods of termagants and that's it.
The Leviathan force chart strikes me as better - because I can take three tervigons as HQ, I need one less 30-strong brood, hence I can cut it down to 20-ish and fit in a pair of venomthropes.
I lose objective secured - which is a shame on the tervigons (not really for the gaunts) - but a synapse reroll for any orphaned spawned broods is probably quite nice, and shrouded across a lot of the army is damn good.
luke1705 wrote: Ok thanks guys. I forgot to cross-reference the third section of the rules to find out what the one does. I should know better by now. And I have some caffeine in me so I'm more rational and less hungry.
Honestly, though, what I'd like to talk about is the list that Nick Nanavati has been playing. That scares the crap out of me even more than Necron Decurion. Sean can probably shed some light on how to beat this, and I almost wound up tying it myself with my 4 flyrant variant of Sean's list, but it's bonkers:
Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch - Exalted Reward, Lesser Reward, Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Tzeentch - Disc, Lvl 3
Herald of Nurgle - Locus of Fecundity (Feel No Pain for unit), Greater Reward, Lvl 2
Herald of Nurgle - Greater Reward, Lvl 2
11x Horrors
10x Horrors
8x Screamers
8x Screamers
8x Plague Drones with Champion - Venom Sting. Champion has a greater reward
Inquisitor - 3x Servo Skulls
This will definitely be a tough matchup for our bugs, but this is probably how I would approach the game.
1. Spread out the objectives. Do not centralize them. The problem is that the Plaguestar has a wide footprint and is not easily taken out (unless you are running dimachaeron(s)). The last thing you would want to do is to centralize the objectives to make it easy for the plaguestar to contest multiple objectives. By spreading out the objectives, you can try to take out 1 flank at a time. Neutralize and then move on.
2. Kill off the screamers and Tzeentch Heralds. They are the most mobile units in the army. You need to contain the mobility of this list. However, if the screamers are too hard to kill (i.e. Grimoire'd), then move on to the next unit. Kill off the faster units that are easier to kill.
3. Leave the deathstar alone, at least until there are no other "easier" targets. Let them have their 1 objective. You need to kill off the other units so that you can claim the other 2-6 objectives. One thing to note is that the Heralds will split off on T5 to try to claim multiple objectives. On T5 (or maybe even on T4), if you must, land your flyrant to be the sacrificial scapegoat for their assault. Them killing the flyrant but claiming 1 objective is better for you than for them to split up and claiming/contest multiple objectives.
4. This goes without saying, but try to focus-fire with your flyrants onto 1 unit at a time. Wipe them out before moving on to the next one. At the minimum, wipe out the psykers in the unit before moving on if at all possible.
5. You want to go 2nd, especially in objectives-based missions. Do not get greedy with trying to alpha-strike his army for an attempt at First Blood in formats like the LVO (other tournament formats may vary).
6. Try to keep his psykers (at least the ones that you are going after and not the ones you are ignoring) within Shadows range if conveniently possible. It will make a difference when he Perils.
7. Oh, and btw, do not place objectives anywhere near ruins.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dedlam wrote: Can any of you guys comment about how good or not good the Zoanthrope brood is when it's fully equiped with the Neurothrope upgrade? Since it's release i thought it would be a powerhouse but i haven't heard a peep about it beyond initial speculations. Thanks guys
This is why you don't see them so often:
1. It is rather pricey. The minimum cost is 175-pts for just 3 models and that doesn't factor in the 75-pts for the tyrannocyte that you almost always need to get for them. Thus, you are looking at 250-pts minimum to run this unit effectively.
2. It is slow. Adding a tyrannocyte is almost mandatory.
3. Psychic powers are unreliable at best. And while the unit can "regenerate" warp charges, here you are looking at 175-pts for 2 warp charges, compared to a 50-pt zoanthrope that also contributes 2 WC's. And after generating the power, you still have to roll to hit.
4. Spirit Leech is situational. It is basically useless against a meched-up army.
5. The unit is basically a one-and-done unit. They come in, get 1 shot off and then can easily be tied up by almost any unit (or shot off the table).
In short, I don't think this unit is consistent enough in production for competitive play. Sure, they may have games where they will shine, but more often than not - just like the dimachaeron - they won't really make their points back in terms of production.
Lord Scythican wrote: Hey I got a question for you all. Does anyone have a list of all products that contain the current tyranid rules?
Here is what I can think of:
Codex: Tyranids
White Dwarf #40 (Toxicrene and Maleceptor)
White Dwarf #41 (Mucolid Spore Cluster, Tyrannocyte, Sporocyst)
White Dwarf #42 (Neurothrope)
Leviathan Rising - The Collection
Shield of Baal: Leviathan
Is this everything?
Here is some information regarding the formations:
Lord Scythican wrote: Hey I got a question for you all. Does anyone have a list of all products that contain the current tyranid rules?
Here is what I can think of:
Codex: Tyranids
White Dwarf #40 (Toxicrene and Maleceptor)
White Dwarf #41 (Mucolid Spore Cluster, Tyrannocyte, Sporocyst)
White Dwarf #42 (Neurothrope)
Leviathan Rising - The Collection
Shield of Baal: Leviathan
Is this everything?
Here is some information regarding the formations:
Lord Scythican wrote: Hey I got a question for you all. Does anyone have a list of all products that contain the current tyranid rules?
Here is what I can think of:
Codex: Tyranids
White Dwarf #40 (Toxicrene and Maleceptor)
White Dwarf #41 (Mucolid Spore Cluster, Tyrannocyte, Sporocyst)
White Dwarf #42 (Neurothrope)
Leviathan Rising - The Collection
Shield of Baal: Leviathan
Is this everything?
Here is a list of everything Tyranid for rules. This web site is about Tyranids. I use it a lot.
Lord Scythican wrote: Hey I got a question for you all. Does anyone have a list of all products that contain the current tyranid rules?
Here is what I can think of:
Codex: Tyranids
White Dwarf #40 (Toxicrene and Maleceptor)
White Dwarf #41 (Mucolid Spore Cluster, Tyrannocyte, Sporocyst)
White Dwarf #42 (Neurothrope)
Leviathan Rising - The Collection
Shield of Baal: Leviathan
Imperial Armor IV: The Anphelion Project (2nd Edition) (EDIT #1)
Is this everything?
If you can swing it get a tablet and put everything on it.
I have every piece of rules currently legal (including fw) easily accessible on my ipad mini (first gen, got it cheap). You can't beat the convenience. I put it in a draw string back and carry it around every gt i go to and I never have to ask anyone what their stuff does.
krootman. wrote: If you can swing it get a tablet and put everything on it.
I have every piece of rules currently legal (including fw) easily accessible on my ipad mini (first gen, got it cheap). You can't beat the convenience. I put it in a draw string back and carry it around every gt i go to and I never have to ask anyone what their stuff does.
That's something I've been interested in doing. Do you have the physical copies of each book as well or did you get the e-copies only?
Can anyone tell me where I can find a Tyranid bastion at or a ADL. I am not good at modeling and I would like not to use the ones that GW have. It just doesn't feel right using them.
I am trying to come up with a Null deployment list in my own style.
The question is it competitive?? What would you replace or change around?
krootman. wrote: If you can swing it get a tablet and put everything on it.
I have every piece of rules currently legal (including fw) easily accessible on my ipad mini (first gen, got it cheap). You can't beat the convenience. I put it in a draw string back and carry it around every gt i go to and I never have to ask anyone what their stuff does.
That's something I've been interested in doing. Do you have the physical copies of each book as well or did you get the e-copies only?
Just the ecopies, which is a change for me cause I own every paper codex since 2nd ed
shadowfinder wrote: Can anyone tell me where I can find a Tyranid bastion at or a ADL. I am not good at modeling and I would like not to use the ones that GW have. It just doesn't feel right using them.
ADL I'd go with wargammas. I have their old spore and it is well done, not seen their ADL in person but I'd trust its quality.
For a Bastion, I am using the gw one but adding some simple greenstuff touches to it to make it fit the part (think Aliens and the walls in the colony). I have an old bit from the starter set that had nids vs marines (battle for macragge) so I have a nice base for a nid comms.
shadowfinder wrote: Can anyone tell me where I can find a Tyranid bastion at or a ADL. I am not good at modeling and I would like not to use the ones that GW have. It just doesn't feel right using them.
++ Fortifications and Stronghold Assault (2013) (Fortification Detachment) ++
+ Fortification +
Imperial Bastion [Comms Relay]
I'd drop Hive Commander and Old Adversary. Neither are really doing much for you in the list. I mean what are you outflanking with Hive Commander? Mucoloids? Why do you want your tyrant in close combat where he'd use old adversary?
Biovores have no synpase to babysit them, so not a fan of them in this particular build.
The Trygon is a major pointsink, but could be fun. Prolly not competitive but in conjunction with your other heavies he could work.
9 extra VPs for big guns never tire -- 5 of which are easy to get. Not sure I like that.
shadowfinder wrote:
Can anyone tell me where I can find a Tyranid bastion at or a ADL. I am not good at modeling and I would like not to use the ones that GW have. It just doesn't feel right using them.
ADL I'd go with wargammas. I have their old spore and it is well done, not seen their ADL in person but I'd trust its quality.
++ Fortifications and Stronghold Assault (2013) (Fortification Detachment) ++
+ Fortification +
Imperial Bastion [Comms Relay]
I'd drop Hive Commander and Old Adversary. Neither are really doing much for you in the list. I mean what are you outflanking with Hive Commander? Mucoloids? Why do you want your tyrant in close combat where he'd use old adversary?
Biovores have no synpase to babysit them, so not a fan of them in this particular build.
The Trygon is a major pointsink, but could be fun. Prolly not competitive but in conjunction with your other heavies he could work.
9 extra VPs for big guns never tire -- 5 of which are easy to get. Not sure I like that.
Sorry I forgot to type in fighter ace for Hive commanded and old adversary. Battle scribe doesn't have Fighter ace as a option. So I used the other two to get the numbers right.
Biovores don't really need a babysitter as they get to shot when they come in from reserves. and the are in the Leviathan formation so I get a reroll for their IB. They are mainly their to claim a objective on my side of the board later in the game as they don't run away. With 3 wounds and cover they should hold up pretty good. At lest I theory.
I hadn't thought f big guns. But I will have to cross that road when I get there. I am not sure about 5 easy kills but That number is a concern. I just don't see what to replace them with to be honest. The Heavy support is by far our best slot. Not counting flyrant spamm which I strongly dislike.The pods are need for the list to work. As for the trygon I could drop him for 2 Mawlocs. But I dislike there unreliability. The trygon I know what he going to do. The added synapse is nice as well.
I also have found that the trygon is rarely targeted when you have 2 Flyrants, 2-3 dakka fexs coming in. He is just not that threating. Which is funny really.
I been thinking of dropping the tfex for a 3rd dakka fex. that would free up some points to play with. Just not sure what to do with it.
Two Mawlocs's hits harder than a Trygon in just about every manner, has double the amount of wounds, is much less likely to Mishap, has both Hit and Run + a great reposition / kill deny ability if it's low health (both of which are great in by themselves but even better in conjunction), and that is even assuming you miss both the blasts, which often enough you will not. The unreliability is them being great for their points some games or just ok for their points in others, which seems far preferable to me than the consistency of just being overpriced every game, like the Trygon is.
Anything you would change? I really miss triple Flyrants but I think I don't have a large enough ground force when I spam Flyrants. Open to suggestions
It seems to beat deathstars or heavy hitting units of any type you just send chaff there way and tie them up. It is very MSU and it has a heck of a lot of units in it.
Anything you would change? I really miss triple Flyrants but I think I don't have a large enough ground force when I spam Flyrants. Open to suggestions
Tervigons are just way too expensive for what you get. With the ability for everything to score there purpose is minimal.
Anything you would change? I really miss triple Flyrants but I think I don't have a large enough ground force when I spam Flyrants. Open to suggestions
Tervigons are just way too expensive for what you get. With the ability for everything to score there purpose is minimal.
I disagree. Especially in lower point games, an outflank tervigon that shows up and spawns in your opponents deployment zone is a very good tactic. It can threaten with it's egrub as well and bubble wrap itself for a solid Obsec unit in their face. Great for Maelstrom. With A skytyrant and 2 flyrants you are posing a lot of threats all of which serve a purpose. I run a very similar list with great success. YMMV
Anything you would change? I really miss triple Flyrants but I think I don't have a large enough ground force when I spam Flyrants. Open to suggestions
How are you using the Skytyrant? Is he staying in the back field or going forward?
It looks to me you are using him to babysit the gaunts and the venom. You can outflank the Tervigon. Or are you outflanking the gaunts and moving the skytrant forward? Not sure how you are using this.
Wouldn't it be better t take the Leviathan detachment and have a third flyrant. You would then have some points left over for some biovores to drop some large blast templates around. Maybe some devourers in the ganut squad.
Personally I would drop the 3rd tyrant all together and go for some other units. I just don't know the play style you are trying to do here.
I did want to try out Skytyrant but I just don't know. My plan was to Outflank either the Termagants or Tervigon depending on opponent, either OF Tervigon and use Termagants as ablative wounds for Skytyrant or Termagants and send off small swarms to objectives from Tervigon. Skytyrant moves up the field and Flyrants deal with the biggest threats to it (Ignore Cover, blast, large volume of dakka).
Just tempted to drop Skytyrant all together. Maybe go for 3 Tyrannocytes and 2x Dakkafex and Tervigon with Mucolids as troops. But then I have no reserve maniplation aside a Warlord Trait...
It seems to beat deathstars or heavy hitting units of any type you just send chaff there way and tie them up. It is very MSU and it has a heck of a lot of units in it.
Yeah... you are about 10 pages late to the party
OrdoSean is his screen name here on dakka and he's already posted a few batreps and comments a few pages back.
Anything you would change? I really miss triple Flyrants but I think I don't have a large enough ground force when I spam Flyrants. Open to suggestions
Tervigons are just way too expensive for what you get. With the ability for everything to score there purpose is minimal.
I disagree. Especially in lower point games, an outflank tervigon that shows up and spawns in your opponents deployment zone is a very good tactic. It can threaten with it's egrub as well and bubble wrap itself for a solid Obsec unit in their face. Great for Maelstrom. With A skytyrant and 2 flyrants you are posing a lot of threats all of which serve a purpose. I run a very similar list with great success. YMMV
For the cost of a Flyrant, it's squishier, way less mobile (like, one of he slowest unit in the game against one of the fastest type of difference), has no Devourers, and gets wrecked in combat. It's extremely overpriced.
Sure, it does put a big fat MC in their grill for them to deal with, but this isn't a good thing! This is a good thing when it's paying 140 pts for 6 W like you get with Mawloc - when it's 240 pts like the outflanking Terv it's the most cost efficient units on field for your opponent to be shooting at.
In lower points games you do get more mileage out of Tervs, this is true. But 1250 isn't low enough for it to really be worth it, and if you did take one the absolute last thing you want to do is outflank it.
Yeah that's what I thought. I just don't know where to go
Two Flyrants is a definite, either Malanthrope/Venomthrope is a strong pick too (depends on whether I want to run Forge World or not). It's just a matter of whether I'll be playing EW or MoW. If it's EW then three Flyrants would probably have the green light with Mucolids as troops, if MoW then I need a ground force so it would have to be two Flyrants with Rippers.
any ideas on how to deal with the meta o super invulnerable necrons and triple wraith knights? ( I have just returned from a 3 game tournament i went 1/0/2 on.)
I'm thinking sky tyrant swarm to deal with the wraith knights, not sure about the crons.... what do you guys think?
Wraithknights can be tarpitted - Skytyrant could easily do that.
For Necrons, volume of shots will be key. I'm tempted to go back to Living Artillery simply for S4 AP4 Biovores. Take out the support that improves everything else though (Canoptek Spyder in Harvest formation, Overlord in Reclamation Legion, Stalkers, etc) and things should fall off the table. They're more durable, but not as killy as before, so you should have most of your stuff intact.
Frozocrone wrote: Wraithknights can be tarpitted - Skytyrant could easily do that.
For Necrons, volume of shots will be key. I'm tempted to go back to Living Artillery simply for S4 AP4 Biovores. Take out the support that improves everything else though (Canoptek Spyder in Harvest formation, Overlord in Reclamation Legion, Stalkers, etc) and things should fall off the table. They're more durable, but not as killy as before, so you should have most of your stuff intact.
yeah thats what I was thinking towards - I just prefer to play with small model count - maybe its time to try out the sky tyrant formation - is 30 gargoyles the right amount in 1750? I wouldn't be so sure about not being as killy before, apart from Tesla and the ctan they haven't had any other nerf. Plus destroyers are very good at killing Nid MC's out of cover.
Frozocrone wrote: Wraithknights can be tarpitted - Skytyrant could easily do that.
For Necrons, volume of shots will be key. I'm tempted to go back to Living Artillery simply for S4 AP4 Biovores. Take out the support that improves everything else though (Canoptek Spyder in Harvest formation, Overlord in Reclamation Legion, Stalkers, etc) and things should fall off the table. They're more durable, but not as killy as before, so you should have most of your stuff intact.
yeah thats what I was thinking towards - I just prefer to play with small model count - maybe its time to try out the sky tyrant formation - is 30 gargoyles the right amount in 1750? I wouldn't be so sure about not being as killy before, apart from Tesla and the ctan they haven't had any other nerf. Plus destroyers are very good at killing Nid MC's out of cover.
Just a word of caution, both Necrons and Eldar have the volume-of-fire to chew through just 1 blob unit like the Skytyrant. WK's are usually supported by wave serpents, who have the firepower to handle a blob. Necrons have wraiths with 4+ RP that will hold up the the more expensive Skytyrant formation for quite some time and, when supported by Necron firepower, can actually overcome them through attrition.
I am thinking that you need to support your Skytyrant formation with another blob unit. Maybe now is the time to reconsider the tervgion + 30-termagant unit. Tie up the Necron units and then spawn more gants to go grab objectives. Definitely something to consider.
Frozocrone wrote: Wraithknights can be tarpitted - Skytyrant could easily do that.
For Necrons, volume of shots will be key. I'm tempted to go back to Living Artillery simply for S4 AP4 Biovores. Take out the support that improves everything else though (Canoptek Spyder in Harvest formation, Overlord in Reclamation Legion, Stalkers, etc) and things should fall off the table. They're more durable, but not as killy as before, so you should have most of your stuff intact.
yeah thats what I was thinking towards - I just prefer to play with small model count - maybe its time to try out the sky tyrant formation - is 30 gargoyles the right amount in 1750? I wouldn't be so sure about not being as killy before, apart from Tesla and the ctan they haven't had any other nerf. Plus destroyers are very good at killing Nid MC's out of cover.
That's true. But most lists I see take the Decurion, which is insanely durable. But you're forced to take detachments in that, which add up in points ery quickly.
So everyone doing the Venom in the box kinda just wings it?
My personal (RAW based) interpretation is this. A Venomthrope in a Bastion does not auto pass IB, he must roll for it. This means on a 1-3, he is a single model and it goes to 4-5. On a 4-5, he must declare an assault in the assault phase if he I able. If he didn't get out in the movement phase though, it is not required as you can't assault straight out of a Building. On a 6, he gets rage and it still doesn't matter as he can't assault unless he disembarked.
So, if he isn't in Synapse range, the only way this affects him is that if he fails IB, he can't shoot a weapon (like a Heavy Bolter) which must then auto fire.
Fearless units do not auto-pass leadership tests. They auto pass morale, pinning, fear and regroup checks. These are types of leadership tests, but as fearless units are not categorically immune to leadership tests, they still need to check for IB
Fearless units do not auto-pass leadership tests. They auto pass morale, pinning, fear and regroup checks. These are types of leadership tests, but as fearless units are not categorically immune to leadership tests, they still need to check for IB
Right. With Fearless, you just ignore some of the results of a failed IB test, such as going-to-ground or falling back.
Frozocrone wrote: Wraithknights can be tarpitted - Skytyrant could easily do that.
For Necrons, volume of shots will be key. I'm tempted to go back to Living Artillery simply for S4 AP4 Biovores. Take out the support that improves everything else though (Canoptek Spyder in Harvest formation, Overlord in Reclamation Legion, Stalkers, etc) and things should fall off the table. They're more durable, but not as killy as before, so you should have most of your stuff intact.
Skytyrant will kill wraith knights dead. Meanwhile volume of Fire will get you pretty close to nowhere against Newcrons unless the fire has an ap value. The sort of list I'm talking about is:
Spoiler:
Decurion
Reclamation Legion
Overlord (Res Orb)
10 Immortals
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
3 Tomb Blades (Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes) <- Nebuloscopes are awesome, but didn't end up fitting.
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord (Warscythe)
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
That is 24 bodies with a 3+/4++
5 Flyrants should kill 3 a turn. So it should take you about 8 turns to eliminate them. However, in my experience, they will be unable to do that. Meanwhile each group of Destroyers will be able to cause a flyrant to jink (1.67 wounds without Jinking), and still cause a grounding check (0.83 wounds when jinking). If grounded, wraiths can assault and kill them.
Killing them isn't easy (A Barbed Heirodule can do some work here, but probably not enough). Tarpitting them works, but you will run out of tarpits. I don't think there is an obvious solution that isn't so list tailored that it can compete against other armies.
luke1705 wrote: FYI this is why Malanthrope-in-a-box is >>>> Venomthrope-in-a-box. Sometimes the Venomthrope just leaves the box...why oh why?
The Venomthrope never has to leave the box. Even if he fails an IB test, he is never required to move towards the enemy. This means he doesn't have to assault. All it means is that, in the assault phase, he must declare an assault if he is capable of making a charge.
luke1705 wrote: FYI this is why Malanthrope-in-a-box is >>>> Venomthrope-in-a-box. Sometimes the Venomthrope just leaves the box...why oh why?
The Venomthrope never has to leave the box. Even if he fails an IB test, he is never required to move towards the enemy. This means he doesn't have to assault. All it means is that, in the assault phase, he must declare an assault if he is capable of making a charge.
the venom doesn't charge. it runs away. So it can and does fall back out of a bastion in it fails it IB one a 3 or less.
We have seen that you don’t need to have forge world to be competitive. As LVO has proven.
Within the ITC format do you need to have 3 Flyrants to be competitive?
I am looking at focusing on this tournament type on the west coast. I been running two tyrnats and have done ok. I am wondering about how to deal with the volume of LOW that tend to be at this tournament type. IK we have talked about so I am not needing to focus on them as much.
At tshift I ran the Barbed and the malan. I had some hart breck loss’s but I feel the it did well.
I am switching gears from that stye of play to a Null deployment style.
I iam needing to looks at what would be a good in a list of that style.
I am feeling the barbed is not a good choice for null while it is really good a trapdoor spider.
The malanthroupe or venoms are not a good pic either I think.
I feel the following units are options for a null stlye list
First the Good units.
Flyrants normal load out with possably Fighter ace upgrade
Dakka fex
Rippers swarms
Tyrannocyte
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Spore Mine Cluster
The so-so:
Mawloc
Trygon
Trygon prime
Raveners
Shrikes
Hormagaunts 20
Tervigon
Devourer gaunts 20
Garg’s
Tfex
Biovoves
Toxicrine
The rest are bad or I am not sure about// experience with.
Null deployment I am worried about having the fire power to take on army’s that have 3+ IK.
That’s a problem with Trapdoor as well I know.
I love to hear thoughts about units for Null and trapdoor. Which ones have been working for you and which you feel would stand a better chance in the ITC format.
shadowfinder wrote: Within the ITC format do you need to have 3 Flyrants to be competitive?
Yes. There are too many armies that have the firepower to deal with 2 Flyrants, and besides the Barbed Heirodule they are our best anti-mech. This is the age of mech. You might be able to win an event with only 2 flyrants, but it is very matchup dependent. Even Sean's list was matchup dependent. The days of the TAC are long gone. So you've got to make list design decisions that maximize your good matchups while minimizing you bad matchups. 3 Flyrants works much better at this than 2. Especially with 25-30% of lists including 3 Flyrants because of the silly army comp rules. You can't run Tyranids and expect to win if you can't control the skies.
shadowfinder wrote: Null deployment I am worried about having the fire power to take on army’s that have 3+ IK.
That isn't really your top fear. Its much easier to down 3 IK's than it is 6 Wave Serpents, or even 3 Wraith Knights. Tau can also present an effectively unkillable list, but because they can kill Tyranids with ease, null deployment works best against them anyways. Demon Summoning is a big problem, because you need to alpha-strike and hit as fast and hard as possible to neutralize their summoners.
I'm not entirely sure how you classify Trapdoor spider. I run a list very similar to BigPig's original trapdoor spider (3 Flyrants, Barbie, Malanthrope) when I run into LVO missions, but I think it is a certain playstyle that works for certain opponents, and against most opponents, a more aggressive playstyle is better. However, I can't remember the last time I played that list and failed to basically table a 3+ Imperial Knight opponent. Once again the problem isn't IKs, it is things like Grav Cents, and Tau, even Grey Knights can be a big challenge. I also struggled against Lynxes that one-shotted my Barbie, but those are apparently out of ITC these days.
shadowfinder wrote: Within the ITC format do you need to have 3 Flyrants to be competitive?
Yes. There are too many armies that have the firepower to deal with 2 Flyrants, and besides the Barbed Heirodule they are our best anti-mech. This is the age of mech. You might be able to win an event with only 2 flyrants, but it is very matchup dependent. Even Sean's list was matchup dependent. The days of the TAC are long gone. So you've got to make list design decisions that maximize your good matchups while minimizing you bad matchups. 3 Flyrants works much better at this than 2. Especially with 25-30% of lists including 3 Flyrants because of the silly army comp rules. You can't run Tyranids and expect to win if you can't control the skies.
shadowfinder wrote: Null deployment I am worried about having the fire power to take on army’s that have 3+ IK.
That isn't really your top fear. Its much easier to down 3 IK's than it is 6 Wave Serpents, or even 3 Wraith Knights. Tau can also present an effectively unkillable list, but because they can kill Tyranids with ease, null deployment works best against them anyways. Demon Summoning is a big problem, because you need to alpha-strike and hit as fast and hard as possible to neutralize their summoners.
I'm not entirely sure how you classify Trapdoor spider. I run a list very similar to BigPig's original trapdoor spider (3 Flyrants, Barbie, Malanthrope) when I run into LVO missions, but I think it is a certain playstyle that works for certain opponents, and against most opponents, a more aggressive playstyle is better. However, I can't remember the last time I played that list and failed to basically table a 3+ Imperial Knight opponent. Once again the problem isn't IKs, it is things like Grav Cents, and Tau, even Grey Knights can be a big challenge. I also struggled against Lynxes that one-shotted my Barbie, but those are apparently out of ITC these days.
Thanks for the reply.
The Lynxes is disappearing????? When have they changed that?
I have had that thing ruin my day more then once.
I don't think they are going to allow cad +Lavianthan anymore. Don't know for sure just a feeling.
With null deployment have not had a lot of issues with wave serpents personally. Wraithknights I am still working on a decent counter for with Null deployment.
I love playing vs. tau with null deployment it so much fun seeing there faces go As for trapdoor spider I have a list that works well. I just not want to play more aggressively most of the time. Null allows me to do this. I can still play deffence if I need to but the style for me is about getting face to face..\
In 5th a spore with 20 Devour gaunts was a common sight.
20 wound and 60 shots when oming in still sounds good. But I haven't seen anyone running that recentaly everything is abut the cheap 15 to 45 point troop choices.
So is 20 gaunts in a spore pod still a good option?
VS
Tfexs in a pod?
or a mawloc
Frozocrone wrote: Wraithknights can be tarpitted - Skytyrant could easily do that.
For Necrons, volume of shots will be key. I'm tempted to go back to Living Artillery simply for S4 AP4 Biovores. Take out the support that improves everything else though (Canoptek Spyder in Harvest formation, Overlord in Reclamation Legion, Stalkers, etc) and things should fall off the table. They're more durable, but not as killy as before, so you should have most of your stuff intact.
Skytyrant will kill wraith knights dead. Meanwhile volume of Fire will get you pretty close to nowhere against Newcrons unless the fire has an ap value. The sort of list I'm talking about is:
Spoiler:
Decurion
Reclamation Legion
Overlord (Res Orb)
10 Immortals
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
3 Tomb Blades (Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes) <- Nebuloscopes are awesome, but didn't end up fitting.
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord (Warscythe)
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
5 Destroyers
3 Heavy Destroyers
That is 24 bodies with a 3+/4++
5 Flyrants should kill 3 a turn. So it should take you about 8 turns to eliminate them. However, in my experience, they will be unable to do that. Meanwhile each group of Destroyers will be able to cause a flyrant to jink (1.67 wounds without Jinking), and still cause a grounding check (0.83 wounds when jinking). If grounded, wraiths can assault and kill them.
Killing them isn't easy (A Barbed Heirodule can do some work here, but probably not enough). Tarpitting them works, but you will run out of tarpits. I don't think there is an obvious solution that isn't so list tailored that it can compete against other armies.
That's actually close to what I run for my Necrons, though I have Zahndrekh, 1 ghost ark, an upgraded D-lord, more tomb blades and less destroyers. In any case, you MUST kill the spider first or you will never kill the wraiths.
luke1705 wrote: FYI this is why Malanthrope-in-a-box is >>>> Venomthrope-in-a-box. Sometimes the Venomthrope just leaves the box...why oh why?
The Venomthrope never has to leave the box. Even if he fails an IB test, he is never required to move towards the enemy. This means he doesn't have to assault. All it means is that, in the assault phase, he must declare an assault if he is capable of making a charge.
the venom doesn't charge. it runs away. So it can and does fall back out of a bastion in it fails it IB one a 3 or less.
I don't believe you fall back if you are Fearless, which you are if you are inside a bastion.
We have seen that you don’t need to have forge world to be competitive. As LVO has proven.
Within the ITC format do you need to have 3 Flyrants to be competitive?
I am looking at focusing on this tournament type on the west coast. I been running two tyrnats and have done ok. I am wondering about how to deal with the volume of LOW that tend to be at this tournament type. IK we have talked about so I am not needing to focus on them as much.
At tshift I ran the Barbed and the malan. I had some hart breck loss’s but I feel the it did well.
I am switching gears from that stye of play to a Null deployment style.
I iam needing to looks at what would be a good in a list of that style.
I am feeling the barbed is not a good choice for null while it is really good a trapdoor spider.
The malanthroupe or venoms are not a good pic either I think.
I feel the following units are options for a null stlye list
First the Good units.
Flyrants normal load out with possably Fighter ace upgrade
Dakka fex
Rippers swarms
Tyrannocyte
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Spore Mine Cluster
The so-so:
Mawloc
Trygon
Trygon prime
Raveners
Shrikes
Hormagaunts 20
Tervigon
Devourer gaunts 20
Garg’s
Tfex
Biovoves
Toxicrine
The rest are bad or I am not sure about// experience with.
Null deployment I am worried about having the fire power to take on army’s that have 3+ IK.
That’s a problem with Trapdoor as well I know.
I love to hear thoughts about units for Null and trapdoor. Which ones have been working for you and which you feel would stand a better chance in the ITC format.
You don't need Forgeworld to win a tournament....but it sure does help. Same reason you don't need a Sicarian or a Fire Raptor as a Space Marine player, but they just make life a lot easier because they address multiple weaknesses in the army. That's what FW can do for your army. Units like the malanthrope or the Sicarian can make life a lot easier because they either address multiple concerns within your army or they do the role of a codex unit but they do it much more efficiently.
As for flyrants, yeah, you can still build a 2-flyrant Tyranid list and succeed. Triple-flyrants isn't a requirement. However, there was a reason why most Necrons ran 3 annihilation barges last edition or that Space Wolf players used to run 3 long fangs previously as well. You just get so much bang for the buck for those units. The flyrant is without a doubt (at least in my opinion) the most flexible and the best unit in the Tyranid codex. You really can't go wrong running more of them as long as you leave about 50% of the points for the rest of the army (that's just my rule-of-thumb). However, just as important is the style-of-play. If you don't like running more than 2 flyrants and prefer a more variety-of-units style of play, then by all means, run what you like. Your goal should be to build as competitive a list as fits your prefered style of play, not to build one just because everyone online is telling you such-and-such.
Thanks for the reply.
The Lynxes is disappearing????? When have they changed that?
That's not for sure at this moment, though from the LVO exit polls, there's a good chance that ranged D will be going away.
I don't think they are going to allow cad +Lavianthan anymore. Don't know for sure just a feeling.
I don't see a reason why they won't. What they may ban is Leviathan + Necrons or Leviathan +Tau or Leviathan + Daemons....basically, the Come the Apocalypse allies. Leviathan + Tyranids is legit, just as the Grey Knight Nemesis Strike Force + Space Marines is legit.
rigeld2 wrote: Unfortunately you're probably right. Instead of just allowing dual CAD for everyone, they're going to take away CAD + Leviathan. Which is just dumb.
Meh. What next - Leviathan + Skyblight is "too much"? Why not just let everyone use the rules as printed?
As I mentioned previously, the only thing they are thinking of banning is Leviathan + Come the Apocalypse allies, of which Leviathan + Tyranids aren't.
Yes, I will get to it eventually. It's just taking a while because I'm not very motivated by my performance there.
As for my opinion, you don't need to wait for my report. I can tell you now. The more flyrants you run, the more dominating your list is potentially. That is because most armies just aren't equipped to handle an overload of flyers, at least without resorting to list-tailoring. However, there is also the pitfall of certain armies with a very strong ground presence. Most likely, you will have problems with the Secondary missions (the Maelstrom missions) against these types of armies.
In short, a Pentyrant Tyranid army is a very strong build. However, it wasn't quite as dominating as I had expected. It really depends on the matchup (and as well as on a little luck). But I am still of the opinion that it is strong enough to win a major tournament.
shadowfinder wrote: What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.
235 points for 2 units that drop in the backfield.
1 of them throws 60 shots, 30 hit, 15 wound MEQs, meaning 5 MEQs dead.
Next round, they have no Synapse support (unless you're spending more points on making sure they do - relying on Flyrants doesn't always work) and have the worst (IMO) of all IBs.
For the cost of a Flyrant, they need to do much more than kill 5 MEQs the turn they drop.
shadowfinder wrote: What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.
235 points for 2 units that drop in the backfield.
1 of them throws 60 shots, 30 hit, 15 wound MEQs, meaning 5 MEQs dead.
Next round, they have no Synapse support (unless you're spending more points on making sure they do - relying on Flyrants doesn't always work) and have the worst (IMO) of all IBs.
For the cost of a Flyrant, they need to do much more than kill 5 MEQs the turn they drop.
Why would you drop a unit in with out the support it needs?
Two to 3 Flyrants are pretty good. There are ways to have other unit supporting it. as well. Of course those units would have to have there own part to do beside babysitting the gaunts.The point of the unit is to add a tool to your army. Since I have rarely seen squads of more then 5 MEQs that's pretty good killing a whole unit a turn.
A pretend list:
spore-field Fromation
3 drop spores
ripper swarm DP 2 Tyrnats
2 dakka fexs
20 gaunt squad with dev.
a Mawloc or a trygon prime
Salt the rest of the army to your taste.
This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.
jy2 wrote: Yes, I will get to it eventually. It's just taking a while because I'm not very motivated by my performance there.
As for my opinion, you don't need to wait for my report. I can tell you now. The more flyrants you run, the more dominating your list is potentially. That is because most armies just aren't equipped to handle an overload of flyers, at least without resorting to list-tailoring. However, there is also the pitfall of certain armies with a very strong ground presence. Most likely, you will have problems with the Secondary missions (the Maelstrom missions) against these types of armies.
In short, a Pentyrant Tyranid army is a very strong build. However, it wasn't quite as dominating as I had expected. It really depends on the matchup (and as well as on a little luck). But I am still of the opinion that it is strong enough to win a major tournament.
I strongly agree. The one "issue" I have with 5 Tyrants is a lack of table presence. I don't consider that a terrible problem, but it is a "style" issue. For your style (mobility based) it works quite well, and can potentially dominate. But I would be unhappy playing it, and that unhappiness would hinder my play. I don't know where the "magic" number is, but I suspect that 3 or 4 Winged Tyrants is in the ball park. SkyTyrant gives a table presence, so I am pretty exited with its possabilitys.
shadowfinder wrote: What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.
They are 5 point less than last edition with more fire power and a better pod to ride in.
I have not seen them played by anyone lately and was wondering why to be honest. Is this old gem just forgotten or has it lost its luster?
I now that everyone has gone the 15 point troop option or 45 points. But are they really better?
I think there are several reasons for this:
1. It's gone up in cost due to the more expensive pods, though its performance remains the same. So less bang for the buck.
2. It still requires a Synapse source to babysit it, meaning that it will limit the mobility of your army to a degree (and possibly its list-building as well).
3. The loss of the old Old Adversary. Before, you could give those devgants Prefered Enemy from a nearby flyrant which made them so much better. Now, you can't.
4. Other units like dakkafexes in spores have supplanted the devilgants due to their considerable price decrease, their much larger threat factor and the fact that they are a better overall TAC unit.
shadowfinder wrote: What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.
235 points for 2 units that drop in the backfield.
1 of them throws 60 shots, 30 hit, 15 wound MEQs, meaning 5 MEQs dead.
Next round, they have no Synapse support (unless you're spending more points on making sure they do - relying on Flyrants doesn't always work) and have the worst (IMO) of all IBs.
For the cost of a Flyrant, they need to do much more than kill 5 MEQs the turn they drop.
Why would you drop a unit in with out the support it needs?
Two to 3 Flyrants are pretty good. There are ways to have other unit supporting it. as well. Of course those units would have to have there own part to do beside babysitting the gaunts.The point of the unit is to add a tool to your army. Since I have rarely seen squads of more then 5 MEQs that's pretty good killing a whole unit a turn.
A pretend list:
spore-field Fromation
3 drop spores
ripper swarm DP 2 Tyrnats
2 dakka fexs
20 gaunt squad with dev.
a Mawloc or a trygon prime
Salt the rest of the army to your taste.
This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.
Why is that better than a Dakkafex and a Bastion with comms relay? Very similar points, a Dakkafex is a bigger threat, doesn't *require* a Synapse babysitter (its IB is easier to deal with, especially if you're dropping it in)...
I'm not saying it's a dumb choice. I just don't see the point when you could either take another Flyrant or another dakkafex. They were taken in 5th because of the restrictive (compared to now) FOC and the lack of other real options.
Sorry was on vacation last week... well sorry if anyone is actually reading these haha. Will try to bang them out fairly fast before I forget most of them. Sorry for lack of photos.
shadowfinder wrote: What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.
They are 5 point less than last edition with more fire power and a better pod to ride in.
I have not seen them played by anyone lately and was wondering why to be honest. Is this old gem just forgotten or has it lost its luster?
I now that everyone has gone the 15 point troop option or 45 points. But are they really better?
I think there are several reasons for this:
1. It's gone up in cost due to the more expensive pods, though its performance remains the same. So less bang for the buck.
2. It still requires a Synapse source to babysit it, meaning that it will limit the mobility of your army to a degree (and possibly its list-building as well).
3. The loss of the old Old Adversary. Before, you could give those devgants Prefered Enemy from a nearby flyrant which made them so much better. Now, you can't.
4. Other units like dakkafexes in spores have supplanted the devilgants due to their considerable price decrease, their much larger threat factor and the fact that they are a better overall TAC unit.
1::As for cost value the unit went down in cost and their ride got better in everyway. As a unit the they improved. So more bang for the buck. I will admit it is only 5 points less but you have a much better unit then we had in 5th.
2nd:: You should have units over in the area that have synapse. As for mobility that would be dependent on where you place them.
They are not meant to be dropped and forgotten. That's what warriors or stealers are for.
3rd::The lost of old adversary hurt them a little for like the 3rd turn on. Turn two you rarely where in range to use it with them. so it is not that big of a lost. It was definitely a good buff for them though.
4th: Fex are really good and have a good threat range. The gaunts when dropped in cover though are a harder nut to crack open. With 20 wound vs 4. Lots of armies have answers to the fex in the heavy weapons the bring. Those weapons are wasted on gaunts. The also allow you to put a large road block // Tar pit where you need it. Something a fex can't do.
If my math is right 20 gaunts should kill a thunder fire canon when it comes in. Every army in the game has good targets for them.
For only 5 points more then the fex you have a flexible unit that is a threat just by weight of fire it can toss out. it also works well with a couple of fexs Podding in with it.
shadowfinder wrote: What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.
This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.
Why is that better than a Dakkafex and a Bastion with comms relay? Very similar points, a Dakkafex is a bigger threat, doesn't *require* a Synapse babysitter (its IB is easier to deal with, especially if you're dropping it in)...
I'm not saying it's a dumb choice. I just don't see the point when you could either take another Flyrant or another dakkafex. They were taken in 5th because of the restrictive (compared to now) FOC and the lack of other real options.
Well for one the bastion doesn't score can be one killed in one shot. It can't move and is not really a threat to anything. How do you compare a pod and gaunt to a fex and a bastion. I don't understand the comparison.
The Dakkafex is a very good unit. It's IB is a big issue in that it stops it from doing what it is meant to do. Shoot things. You don't drop a fex in to assault thing. A gaunt unit on the others side of the table if it fails IB it runs to your table edge. Which means it is able to regroup. Run in to synapse or have synapse move to it. It then gets to move and respond as normal. It is not all that bad really.
The dakka fex and tyrant both are good units. But they can't do something's. You limit your options to counter thing if you only go with two units. You will find armies that you lack the tools to deal with.
I feel it is a problem with list building in that people are so focused on the just a few unit that they miss the possibilities of other unit.
What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.
This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.
Why is that better than a Dakkafex and a Bastion with comms relay? Very similar points, a Dakkafex is a bigger threat, doesn't *require* a Synapse babysitter (its IB is easier to deal with, especially if you're dropping it in)...
I'm not saying it's a dumb choice. I just don't see the point when you could either take another Flyrant or another dakkafex. They were taken in 5th because of the restrictive (compared to now) FOC and the lack of other real options.
Well for one the bastion doesn't score can be one killed in one shot. It can't move and is not really a threat to anything. How do you compare a pod and gaunt to a fex and a bastion. I don't understand the comparison.
Partially because you need a bastion for the comms relay - which you really, really want if you're doing a null deployment style list.
And iirc a claimed building can score... Plus Venom in a box is a pretty popular tactic.
The Dakkafex is a very good unit. It's IB is a big issue in that it stops it from doing what it is meant to do. Shoot things. You don't drop a fex in to assault thing. A gaunt unit on the others side of the table if it fails IB it runs to your table edge. Which means it is able to regroup. Run in to synapse or have synapse move to it. It then gets to move and respond as normal. It is not all that bad really.
Relying on LD6 regrouping is simply ... Well, it's not a good idea.
I've had one run from one side of the board to the other because I needed my Synapse (Flyrants) elsewhere. And no, while the primary purpose of a Dakkafex isn't to assault, it's not like it's bad at it.
The dakka fex and tyrant both are good units. But they can't do something's. You limit your options to counter thing if you only go with two units. You will find armies that you lack the tools to deal with.
I feel it is a problem with list building in that people are so focused on the just a few unit that they miss the possibilities of other unit.
I haven't found an army I lack the tools to deal with that 20 gants would be able to deal with.
It seems like you've made your mind up and are taking offense at people who disagree - I've tested them (as has jy2 I'm sure). I'm not talking about this in a vacuum.
Shadow's opinion is a valid concern that utilizing few units can magnify the weaknesses of those units; however the Flyrant can just do SO MUCH. It's really rather insane. The only thing it can't do well is score ground objectives, but that's what you have the rest of your army for.
Part of competitive list-building is making a list that makes life difficult for other armies but easy for you. Flyrants do that beautifully; some gaunts rarely do either of these things. Armies can shoot or assault or ignore them. Even when they're fearless it's not tough to kill a WS 3 t 3 av 6+ unit to the man
jy2 wrote: Yes, I will get to it eventually. It's just taking a while because I'm not very motivated by my performance there.
As for my opinion, you don't need to wait for my report. I can tell you now. The more flyrants you run, the more dominating your list is potentially. That is because most armies just aren't equipped to handle an overload of flyers, at least without resorting to list-tailoring. However, there is also the pitfall of certain armies with a very strong ground presence. Most likely, you will have problems with the Secondary missions (the Maelstrom missions) against these types of armies.
In short, a Pentyrant Tyranid army is a very strong build. However, it wasn't quite as dominating as I had expected. It really depends on the matchup (and as well as on a little luck). But I am still of the opinion that it is strong enough to win a major tournament.
Also I will add, if your opponent knows how to fight flyrants, they don't need to Taylor to play around their weaknesses. Plus you just can't take a bunch of flyrants and expect to win.
Currently, I think 5 is to much, and 3 is just right. I'm currently testing 4 when I need a break with eldar, but to mixed results, it's too soon to tell.
I also think the more a packet incorporates maelstrom, the worst flyrant spam becomes.
What are your guys thoughts on the old 20 man devourer gaunts in a Pod.
This null style list allows for a lot of threats turn 2. With all the shooting you will have some good targets to the guants and force your aponnent has to get rid of in his back field.
Not perfect but will threaten a lot of armies a very close range.
Why is that better than a Dakkafex and a Bastion with comms relay? Very similar points, a Dakkafex is a bigger threat, doesn't *require* a Synapse babysitter (its IB is easier to deal with, especially if you're dropping it in)...
I'm not saying it's a dumb choice. I just don't see the point when you could either take another Flyrant or another dakkafex. They were taken in 5th because of the restrictive (compared to now) FOC and the lack of other real options.
Well for one the bastion doesn't score can be one killed in one shot. It can't move and is not really a threat to anything. How do you compare a pod and gaunt to a fex and a bastion. I don't understand the comparison.
Partially because you need a bastion for the comms relay - which you really, really want if you're doing a null deployment style list.
And iirc a claimed building can score... Plus Venom in a box is a pretty popular tactic.
The Dakkafex is a very good unit. It's IB is a big issue in that it stops it from doing what it is meant to do. Shoot things. You don't drop a fex in to assault thing. A gaunt unit on the others side of the table if it fails IB it runs to your table edge. Which means it is able to regroup. Run in to synapse or have synapse move to it. It then gets to move and respond as normal. It is not all that bad really.
Relying on LD6 regrouping is simply ... Well, it's not a good idea.
I've had one run from one side of the board to the other because I needed my Synapse (Flyrants) elsewhere. And no, while the primary purpose of a Dakkafex isn't to assault, it's not like it's bad at it.
The dakka fex and tyrant both are good units. But they can't do something's. You limit your options to counter thing if you only go with two units. You will find armies that you lack the tools to deal with.
I feel it is a problem with list building in that people are so focused on the just a few unit that they miss the possibilities of other unit.
I haven't found an army I lack the tools to deal with that 20 gants would be able to deal with.
It seems like you've made your mind up and are taking offense at people who disagree - I've tested them (as has jy2 I'm sure). I'm not talking about this in a vacuum.
1st I am not upset or taking offense at what people are saying.
I respect your and JY2 thoughts on units and their use's, but that don't make me have to agree with everything being said. As for testing I have too. I have had some good results with it and other games its been worthless.
That's why I asked about this unit to get a feel for it from people that play tournaments more then me.
I personally don't play with buildings so thanks for the rule info on that. Just to be clear it scores as long as you control it( have someone inside it.). If the opponent goes inside he control's it then. So does it score for him then if he is in control?
As for the com's relay being a must have for a Null deployment I will have to disagree. It is nice but not a must have. I know I am in the minority on this but I am more then happy with a 3+.I played all of 5th with a 3 and did very well. Back then you could get a 2+ only with the Swarmlord added. It wasn't worth it then and now it's not worth it. As for the reroll it is nice but I have a nasty habit or rolling 1and 2 for the reroll as well.YMWV
I agree that the tyrant is good, very good. I in the camp that 2 maybe 3 is the way to go. I have seen JY2's 5 tyrant list and while I feel it is powerful. I feel it is to unbalanced in regards to taking objectives. it will struggle terribly if it loses two or three tyrant's.
I have played vs. that list locally and have found a null list gives it some problems as does trapdoor spider list. I will admit my opponent is not as well versed in the game as JY2. But I have played it a few times now so I am not to worried about it. At lest not with other Tyranids.
I would never count on LD 6 roll's in a game.
It is true that gaunts are easy to kill and I am not saying they are the best choice ever. They are a option that can fit in a list well if you have a plan for their use. Sometimes it is good t have a unit fr your opponent to focus on beside another fex. I would rather some ne shot gaunts then my Flyrants or dakka fex.
Sorry I am rambling.
To me taking the best unit in a army and using only that is extremely boring. It shows to me a lack of creativity, sometimes. I love when someone takes a unit that is fair or only good and makes them amazing. That shows more tactical expertise then just take the top two unit in the army book spam them and your good. This is my problem with most elder player the spam serpents and wraithknight for the most part. I don't fear serpent spam any more. I know what it is going to do and know it can be a up hill battle. I really fear the FootDar players as they are usually very good and I am not as comfortable playing vs the units they bring. sorry lol
Gosh, I played like such a noob in that game. I can't believe I fell for the Psychic Scream-Shadows in the Warp trick. Believe it or not, this was the first time ever (since 5th Ed.) that I played against another bug player with my bugs. I completely forgot about Shadows in the Warp affecting my own flyrants. As such, I fell for Sean's bait beautifully.
And while this is no excuse, but I had gak for powers. Between 5 flyrants, I didn't get a single Catalyst or Psychic Scream! (Actually for the course of the entire 6-game tournament with 30 psychic powers, I only got Catalyst maybe 3 times.) In any case, well played by Sean. He purposely gave up First Blood (lictor in the bastion) but in return, he got 2 flyrants. From then on, I was just playing from behind.
One thing to note is how deadly his mawlocs were. 2 of them came up and landed directly, killing both my malanthrope and one of my lictors on Turn 2. I sure envy his mawlocs. My mawloc only landed directly on target just once throughout the entire tournament (6-games). However, 3 times throughout, my mawloc misshaped and killed itself. I swear, just not one of my better tournaments.
@shadowfinder
If you like the devilgants in a spore, then give it a try. They just aren't as popular as before, but that doesn't mean that they aren't good. They can still kill infantry (though they used to do it better with Prefered Enemy) and they act as a good ObSec distraction unit (in a normal CAD). However, the shift in the meta back to mech means that they aren't as effective as they used to be because infantry on the ground, while still around, isn't as prevalent as they used to be. Also, now they've got more competition as once expensive monsters such as dakkafexes, tyrannofexes and the mawloc (not to mention the flyrant) have gone down in price considerably. There are just more choices for the player currently.
So if you run them, let us know how it goes. Maybe your playtesting will convince some of us to give them a try again.
shadowfinder wrote: Was wondering what you all thought of this List.
I am thinking of making this my ITC tournament list but wanted some thoughts on it.
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Tyrannofex [Acid Spray, Electroshock Grubs]
My thought is that there are too many points in reserve with no reserve modifier, that means games where you roll well for reserves you will do fine, and games where you don't roll well, you will struggle mightily. On the other hand with so many reserve rolls, your average case is going to be a mixed bag. So it will have all of the drawbacks of a space marine drop pod list (only part of the army comes in at first) without the biggest advantage (They come in on turn 1).
You also don't have much ability to adjust your strategy based on your matchup. With no Malanthrope / Venomthrope at all, you are going to really struggle in games where you might want to deploy your flyrants on the board rather than reserving them, and I guess you plan to generally deploy your biovores and TFex and hope for the best?
No E.Grubs on the Flyrants? That isn't the best move. If you are unwilling to drop other things, E.Grubs are more important than Fighter Ace.
Finally, you don't have enough Synapse for your Fexes and Biovores. You've got to consider that in some games you will lose all 3 flyrants. I would add a Malanthrope or at least a zoey for additional synapse, especially for whatever MC doesn't get a ride in the Tyrannocyte.
Without any question I would drop a TFex or CFex + biovore from the list for a Aegis + comms relay, and a Venom + Zoey or a malanthrope (better). It would lower the ceiling (the best case scenario) a tiny bit, while raising the floor (Worst case scenario) a great deal.
shadowfinder wrote: Was wondering what you all thought of this List.
I am thinking of making this my ITC tournament list but wanted some thoughts on it.
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Tyrannofex [Acid Spray, Electroshock Grubs]
Ok here are my thoughts on your list. Overall, I like the list and I like the concept. However, I think that there is some room for improvement.
1. You need Egrubs. Egrubs > Fighter Ace, if you're looking for points for them.
2. This army bleeds VP's in Big Guns missions. You will be playing that mission with a severe disadvantage.
3. No ability to control your reserves means that you are playing a game of Russian roulette. Consider dropping a heavy support (and perhaps a spore) for maybe the Aegis + Comms. You can even have your spore mines man the comms.
4. Consider swapping out a dakkafex (+spore) for a mawloc. You'll gain some AP2 offense which is great against the centstar or those pesky Tau. You'd even have points leftover for probably the Aegis + Comms.
shadowfinder wrote: Was wondering what you all thought of this List.
I am thinking of making this my ITC tournament list but wanted some thoughts on it.
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Tyrannofex [Acid Spray, Electroshock Grubs]
My thought is that there are too many points in reserve with no reserve modifier, that means games where you roll well for reserves you will do fine, and games where you don't roll well, you will struggle mightily. On the other hand with so many reserve rolls, your average case is going to be a mixed bag. So it will have all of the drawbacks of a space marine drop pod list (only part of the army comes in at first) without the biggest advantage (They come in on turn 1).
You also don't have much ability to adjust your strategy based on your matchup. With no Malanthrope / Venomthrope at all, you are going to really struggle in games where you might want to deploy your flyrants on the board rather than reserving them, and I guess you plan to generally deploy your biovores and TFex and hope for the best?
No E.Grubs on the Flyrants? That isn't the best move. If you are unwilling to drop other things, E.Grubs are more important than Fighter Ace.
Finally, you don't have enough Synapse for your Fexes and Biovores. You've got to consider that in some games you will lose all 3 flyrants. I would add a Malanthrope or at least a zoey for additional synapse, especially for whatever MC doesn't get a ride in the Tyrannocyte.
Without any question I would drop a TFex or CFex + biovore from the list for a Aegis + comms relay, and a Venom + Zoey or a malanthrope (better). It would lower the ceiling (the best case scenario) a tiny bit, while raising the floor (Worst case scenario) a great deal.
I agree about having the modifiers for reserve. Unfortunately I just can't do building My inner fluff bunny tries to me every time I do. Doesn't help that I can't find a bastion that doesn't look like a human building, maybe that would help. I personally don't have the skill yet to make my own Tyranids building and I can't seam to find a option I can buy some where that looks half way decent.
I have found out in my play testing that the random nature of things coming in has not really been a factor. In fact it has been helpful a lot of times. People move to kill the unit that came in and get nailed by the other stuff that comes in the next turn.
I don't know if it is just me but when everything comes in I sometimes don't have a good place for it to go. Having one or two not come in is not a bad thing.
Synapse can be a issue. . I have found a issue about how to get synapse and maintain the threat pressure needed. The tfex and the bivore go in to reserves and they are good to claim back field objective while being able to shot thing as needed. If they can't shoot its not been a issue
I will not do one more Flyrants(Three is two much for me personally I was running a trygon prime instead of the 3rd Flyrant.) and their is no cheap synapse that can deep strike that is real survivable.
Malanthorpe is nice but it don't have a place in the list really. He doesn't add anything to the list.... I could put him in a spore as well and deepstrike him in with the fex's but then you are hoping he comes in as wanted. Or rework the list to make him work.
Placing the biovores on the table and the tfex if I need two in a bad match up. it would give me 9 total units they would have to kill. One needing a very high ap weapons to do anything to it. I am thinking that is worse case.
I looked at the Swarmlord he is just to much for what he does unfortunately.
I have been looking at dropping the tfex and the biovores and putting in two Mawlocs instead. Can the Mawlocs borrow first turn? That would take care of the back field synapse issues.
Ace fighter is something new I thought of trying out. I have yet to play a game with it but I like the idea of it. But I have no issues in trading it out.
One question I did have is why do people love ebrubs?? I have taken them and maybe used them one time in 20 games at a tournament. They have rarely ever been better then firing the both devourers. For me they seem a waist of points. Maybe the more tyrants you take they become better...... So if someone could explain why everyone say's they are a must take?? I know I am in the minority in this but I don't understand it.
Mawlocs cannot burrow on T1. They can only burrow on T2 onwards, meaning T3 is when they will come in if you deploy them. Thus, better to leave them in reserves.
You need egrubs because Imperial Knights and mechdar are so prevalent in competitive play. They are also good against heavy armor such as land raiders, Necron AV13 vehicles as well as AM leman russes. Egrubs also do a fine job against units in open-topped transports as well as fortifications (bastions, trukks, land speeder storms, venoms, raiders, etc.). Finally, with egrubs, you have the potential to hit multiple vehicles in a mech-heavy list. All for only 10-pts.
Lastly, surprise a walker and let him charge into you, only to eat D3 haywire Wall of Death overwatch hits.
shadowfinder wrote: Malanthorpe is nice but it don't have a place in the list really. He doesn't add anything to the list.... I could put him in a spore as well and deepstrike him in with the fex's but then you are hoping he comes in as wanted. Or rework the list to make him work.
What? No. The Malanthrope provide backfield synapse and objective control. He is better than a TFex in assault, and Malanthrope + 2 Biovores = more suvivable than TFex + 2 Biovores, and costs a whole lot less points. But, beyond a more efficient backfield, he brings you the ability to deploy your Flyrants (and even Dakkafexes) on the board for certain match-ups which keeps options open.
I agree with the above 2 posters. Also there are big bastions for sale online. I wish I had the link, but I'm currently have a really nice buzz going at the airport on the way to adepticon, and don't really feel like looking for it.
Yeah, I don't use a "in the box" stratagem myself, but I do know its effective. If I went with one, I would use a Imperium bastion, and "Stealer Cult" it a bit with green stuff, and an extra Stealer or two. Satisfies my fluff hunger...
jy2 wrote:Mawlocs cannot burrow on T1. They can only burrow on T2 onwards, meaning T3 is when they will come in if you deploy them. Thus, better to leave them in reserves.
You need egrubs because Imperial Knights and mechdar are so prevalent in competitive play. They are also good against heavy armor such as land raiders, Necron AV13 vehicles as well as AM leman russes. Egrubs also do a fine job against units in open-topped transports as well as fortifications (bastions, trukks, land speeder storms, venoms, raiders, etc.). Finally, with egrubs, you have the potential to hit multiple vehicles in a mech-heavy list. All for only 10-pts.
Lastly, surprise a walker and let him charge into you, only to eat D3 haywire Wall of Death overwatch hits.
tag8833 wrote:
shadowfinder wrote: Malanthorpe is nice but it don't have a place in the list really. He doesn't add anything to the list.... I could put him in a spore as well and deepstrike him in with the fex's but then you are hoping he comes in as wanted. Or rework the list to make him work.
What? No. The Malanthrope provide backfield synapse and objective control. He is better than a TFex in assault, and Malanthrope + 2 Biovores = more suvivable than TFex + 2 Biovores, and costs a whole lot less points. But, beyond a more efficient backfield, he brings you the ability to deploy your Flyrants (and even Dakkafexes) on the board for certain match-ups which keeps options open.
JY2 deathleapered the rest, and said it better.
pinecone77 wrote:Yeah, I don't use a "in the box" stratagem myself, but I do know its effective. If I went with one, I would use a Imperium bastion, and "Stealer Cult" it a bit with green stuff, and an extra Stealer or two. Satisfies my fluff hunger...
krootman. wrote:I agree with the above 2 posters. Also there are big bastions for sale online. I wish I had the link, but I'm currently have a really nice buzz going at the airport on the way to adepticon, and don't really feel like looking for it.
Good luck with the deep striking fexs tho!
Thanks guys for the replys. Will give me some food for thought.
Krootman:: if you can find those links for bastions in the future you win adepticon . I love to see them. I have found a few ADL but no bastions..
I will give Egrubs a try since I will be running 3 tyrants.
My next tournament doesn't allow forgeworld. I will keep what you said about the malanthrope in mind
As for the buildings I will see in time. I have to buy the book and then find a building my inner fluff bunny will allow
Not sure how a malanthrope is better then a Tfex in assault since it lacks ap2 attacks but that's for another day.
I have a questing would you take 2 fex and one Tfex or would you go 3 fex's. What combo is better?
krootman. wrote: So the malenthrope is good in assault because it's poison 2 plus, and has toxic mysama.
And gains army wide PE after mulching the first unit, much higher Init, can also nerf enemy characters with "grasping tail", really over all the Mal is a better melee unit even lacking AP2.
krootman. wrote: So the malenthrope is good in assault because it's poison 2 plus, and has toxic mysama.
And gains army wide PE after mulching the first unit, much higher Init, can also nerf enemy characters with "grasping tail", really over all the Mal is a better melee unit even lacking AP2.
His bonus's are nice but Mine can't fight his way out of a cream puff. I can't tell you how many shameful things have killed him or tied him up for the entire game.
At LVO, my Malanthrope killed a Destroyer Lord, 2 farseers, 1 Autarch, 8 fire dragons, 13 Eldar Jetbikes, 3 Warp Spiders, St. Celestine (she came back), 8 Sisters, a few tankbustas, a Venom, and a Wave Serpent, and some Pink Horrors. It wracked up more close combat kills than any other unit in my army. It was bailing out my Barbed Heirodule every time it got assaulted by something that could threaten it (Destroyer Lord, Fire Dragons, Tankbustas), and was stunningly effective at killing whatever the opponent sent to my backfield to try for my objectives.
It also tanked my opponent's alpha strike in most games, and only died to an alpha strike in one game when a Serpent Shield did 5 wounds, and I failed 4 of 5 3+ saves. Against the Lynxes it was basically getting shot at every turn after the 1st. So that's about 7-8 turns of the double D coming at it. It would have won me one of those games (holding the relic on turn 6) if it didn't get 6'd.
Initiative 5, plus poison granting rerolls on wounds against T4 or below + preferred enemy + the challenge mechanic makes it more effective than you would ever expect as a counter assault unit. Meanwhile Shrouding + T5 + Regen + 3+ armor = stupidly hard to kill.
The other day at a local RTT, my Malanthrope + 6 rippers killed over 500 points worth of Grey Knights (15 Strike Marines, 1 Terminator, ML 3 Librarian).
tag8833 wrote: At LVO, my Malanthrope killed a Destroyer Lord, 2 farseers, 1 Autarch, 8 fire dragons, 13 Eldar Jetbikes, 3 Warp Spiders, St. Celestine (she came back), 8 Sisters, a few tankbustas, a Venom, and a Wave Serpent, and some Pink Horrors. It wracked up more close combat kills than any other unit in my army. It was bailing out my Barbed Heirodule every time it got assaulted by something that could threaten it (Destroyer Lord, Fire Dragons, Tankbustas), and was stunningly effective at killing whatever the opponent sent to my backfield to try for my objectives.
It also tanked my opponent's alpha strike in most games, and only died to an alpha strike in one game when a Serpent Shield did 5 wounds, and I failed 4 of 5 3+ saves. Against the Lynxes it was basically getting shot at every turn after the 1st. So that's about 7-8 turns of the double D coming at it. It would have won me one of those games (holding the relic on turn 6) if it didn't get 6'd.
Initiative 5, plus poison granting rerolls on wounds against T4 or below + preferred enemy + the challenge mechanic makes it more effective than you would ever expect as a counter assault unit. Meanwhile Shrouding + T5 + Regen + 3+ armor = stupidly hard to kill.
The other day at a local RTT, my Malanthrope + 6 rippers killed over 500 points worth of Grey Knights (15 Strike Marines, 1 Terminator, ML 3 Librarian).
can your malanthrope talk to mine
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here is a revised list for the tournament this weekend. I know three guys are bring censtar. SO that made the debate about the tfex vs. Mawlocs kind of easy.
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Mawloc
Mawloc
I am dropping a unit of spore mines adding one mine to each of the other units to make room for both Mawlocs. I had t pic between a egrubs or a spore mine unit. I really want to give the egrubs a chance so running 3 is necessary. Having two never did much in my other list. that's why I dropped them.
tag8833 wrote: At LVO, my Malanthrope killed a Destroyer Lord, 2 farseers, 1 Autarch, 8 fire dragons, 13 Eldar Jetbikes, 3 Warp Spiders, St. Celestine (she came back), 8 Sisters, a few tankbustas, a Venom, and a Wave Serpent, and some Pink Horrors. It wracked up more close combat kills than any other unit in my army. It was bailing out my Barbed Heirodule every time it got assaulted by something that could threaten it (Destroyer Lord, Fire Dragons, Tankbustas), and was stunningly effective at killing whatever the opponent sent to my backfield to try for my objectives.
It also tanked my opponent's alpha strike in most games, and only died to an alpha strike in one game when a Serpent Shield did 5 wounds, and I failed 4 of 5 3+ saves. Against the Lynxes it was basically getting shot at every turn after the 1st. So that's about 7-8 turns of the double D coming at it. It would have won me one of those games (holding the relic on turn 6) if it didn't get 6'd.
Initiative 5, plus poison granting rerolls on wounds against T4 or below + preferred enemy + the challenge mechanic makes it more effective than you would ever expect as a counter assault unit. Meanwhile Shrouding + T5 + Regen + 3+ armor = stupidly hard to kill.
The other day at a local RTT, my Malanthrope + 6 rippers killed over 500 points worth of Grey Knights (15 Strike Marines, 1 Terminator, ML 3 Librarian).
I've literally never had my Malanthrope survive one round of combat.
It "helps" I guess that the only thing that reaches it are combat monsters like Thunderwolf Cav or the like - which annihilate pretty much anything I've got going against them.
For last week's league night we were supposed to bring in 750 point lists for team matches, so I brought the Neural Node (720 points minimum) just to play with all my lovely new Zoanthropes and try out the Malceptor for a bit of a laugh.
Amazingly, everything worked out quite well. The Zoanthrope broods actually killed quite a bit with their Warp Blasts (the formation bonus helped immensely with getting off the WC2 powers) and proved surprisingly nimble with their ability to shoot and then run. Spirit Leech was a bit hit-or-miss in terms of effectiveness (put 1 wound on a Talos, 5 wounds on death company, and wiped out a unit of Wracks) , but most of the targets available were Ld. 10 so perhaps not the best testing environment.
Also I'm shocked to say, the Malceptor actually performed rather well. Not only did it survive the game (preserving the formation bonus), it single handedly killed ~200 points on its own!
Spoiler:
- 1x Cronos Pain Engine (assault - the Malceptor had Paroxysm as its secondary power and was handed FNP from one of the 'thrope units)
- 3x Tactical Marines (Psychic Overload - hit the sergeant, did 3 wounds, killed the sarge and 2 extra marines from Look Out Sir!)
- 2x Tactical Marines (assault - the remnants of the squad above)
I put this list together to with the intention to a. force target priority and b. be strong with maelstrom grabbing - i used it on Tuesday vs Deldar and Harlequin jet bike army ( Harlequin jet bikes are pretty pokey and durable!) and annihilated the dude by Turn 4. I'm looking to tweak it for a 1750 pt comp in the middle of April and wondered if anyone else had any experience ( PS i've finally fielded Sky Tyrant and it's awesome- at least for that one game!)
Just as an FYI comp is primary maelstrom with a secondary of the usual First strike, Warlord and line breaker. ( no eternal war mission for some reason.)
1750 2 sources - 1 CAD or equivalent and 1 allies/ formation. No CTA allies. LOW restricted to 400 pts max.
so on with the list;
Leviathan Detatchment
Flyrant - Electroshock, Devourers x 2
Flyrant - Electroshock, Devourers x 2
Deathleaper
I've run a very similar list in Maelstrom games. If running book Maelstrom than MSU is a big deal. Dropping deathleaper to upgrade the mucolids to min squads of Hormagants (and changing it to a CAD) would help you out quite a bit. Otherwise it looks quite good.
Their Army Comp is no Forgeworld, no Lords of War, 2 Detachments max.
My initial take is that Tyranids will never have a chance in any of those against decurion or Green Tide, and will struggle mightily to win more than 1 of the 3 primaries against most other lists unless they table them (Which doesn't autowin, you just get to play one turn with no opponent and try to win that way). Does anyone have a thought of a Tyranid list that can meaningfully compete in these missions?
The most hilarious part is the bonus victory point for killing an MC.
I been talking to a guy in the area that's thinking about running a 1850 highlander tournament. I love the concept but I have yet to play it. Sounds like you get to see some fluffy list that are used creatively for some armies at lest.
It got me thinking about what to bring for my Tryanids. Honestly I know what I bring but I not sure if it would be all that competitive. Then again it could be very good. Since the hard counters that you normally see are not there as much either.
What do you guys think? Does Highlander bring a interesting challenge to list building for Tyranids?
Has any one played Highlander with Tyranids yet? How was it? What where your incite from doing so?
Are things like our new spores also restricted to one-ofs?
Does the Swarmlord count as a Hive Tyrant?
There's some interesting lists you could build depending on the answers to that. I've never done a highlander event though, so don't rely on me to answer that.
Their Army Comp is no Forgeworld, no Lords of War, 2 Detachments max.
My initial take is that Tyranids will never have a chance in any of those against decurion or Green Tide, and will struggle mightily to win more than 1 of the 3 primaries against most other lists unless they table them (Which doesn't autowin, you just get to play one turn with no opponent and try to win that way). Does anyone have a thought of a Tyranid list that can meaningfully compete in these missions?
The most hilarious part is the bonus victory point for killing an MC.
I like the missions.
Nids are going to have to run a hybrid army to make it work. You can go MSU for the objective games or 2 large blobs of troops and a couple synapses. Hate t say it but the Swarmlord//tyrant with guard may have a place in this format. The rest of the army will need to be pure offence.
I know greentide is a massive unit. But it can't claim anything if it is in combat. or was that only the relic.... A couple large Garg's units should hurt that unit pretty badly backed up by tyrants shooting it first.
shadowfinder wrote: I know greentide is a massive unit. But it can't claim anything if it is in combat. or was that only the relic.... A couple large Garg's units should hurt that unit pretty badly backed up by tyrants shooting it first.
I'm not sure if you've ever played against greentide. 30 gargoyles will last 1 turn in close combat, and that is only if you manage to assault a corner of the tide so that most if it doesn't get close enough to swing. 100 boyz with 4 Attacks each. hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's. It takes about 20 boyz to make it into the combat to wipe a squad of 30 Gargoyles. Meanwhile, assuming you don't try to blind and all 30 gargoyles make it in they will kill 5.5 Ork. Gargoyles vs Green tide is a very bad idea. If you take 60 Gargoyles, you can probably kill about 10 orks for a Return on investment of 17%. Not exactly points efficiency right there.
Meanwhile Green Tide can most certainly claim objectives, and not only that, it can claim one objective and deny 3-4 more.
tag8833 wrote: The most hilarious part is the bonus victory point for killing an MC.
While I don't disagree with you assessment, I don't see this in the post.
edit: NM - Objective 1, Mission 2. Just stupid.
Why does it matter that a MC is worth a Kill Point? As long as you don't brood 2 Carnifexes together, it's really the same as it always is. It's a kill point mission (objective). Everything is worth a KP. MCs AREN'T a "bonus" victory point. It's the same "bonus" victory point as killing 5 Tacticals. Am I wrong in this assessment?
A brood of 2 Dakkafexes is worth 2 victory points, but that's about it. No one runs 2 in a brood, at least they shouldn't xD (especially with this ruling)
tag8833 wrote: The most hilarious part is the bonus victory point for killing an MC.
While I don't disagree with you assessment, I don't see this in the post.
edit: NM - Objective 1, Mission 2. Just stupid.
Why does it matter that a MC is worth a Kill Point? As long as you don't brood 2 Carnifexes together, it's really the same as it always is. It's a kill point mission (objective). Everything is worth a KP. MCs AREN'T a "bonus" victory point. It's the same "bonus" victory point as killing 5 Tacticals. Am I wrong in this assessment?
A brood of 2 Dakkafexes is worth 2 victory points, but that's about it. No one runs 2 in a brood, at least they shouldn't xD (especially with this ruling)
Re-read it. Specifically "1 Kill Point per 3 hull points for super heavy vehicles and monstrous creatures. " Meaning a single Carnifex is 2 Kill Points, 2 in a single Brood would be 3.
shadowfinder wrote:I been talking to a guy in the area that's thinking about running a 1850 highlander tournament. I love the concept but I have yet to play it. Sounds like you get to see some fluffy list that are used creatively for some armies at lest.
It got me thinking about what to bring for my Tryanids. Honestly I know what I bring but I not sure if it would be all that competitive. Then again it could be very good. Since the hard counters that you normally see are not there as much either.
What do you guys think? Does Highlander bring a interesting challenge to list building for Tyranids?
Has any one played Highlander with Tyranids yet? How was it? What where your incite from doing so?
I've been list-building and testing for a highlander tourney for quite some time now, and it can be interesting - my issue is the comp is very harsh on us. You can only take troop duplicates if you've taken ALL other troops once, Tervigons can only spawn if you don't have Termas already, only one pod, but what really hurts is the 2 source rule. I'd love to run a Malanthrope, a pod and maybe even a bastion - but any one of them takes up the 2nd source slot. The other main concern is that IKs are allowed, and in Highlander it's nigh impossible for us to kill them easily. But hopefully your comp isn't as restrictive !
In any case, I've tried several lists - one with Raveners and Shrikes all rushing forward to play the game in their deployment zone, which works somewhat well but risks being shot off the table as you approach. Too often I was getting the units cut down severely before they actually did anything. And IKs stomped all over me.
I'm now trying a max-flier list with Harpy, Crone and Flyrant, on the basis that if people are going to take IKs which I cannot kill, then I might as well take stuff they can't! The list at 1500 is:
It's been performing better than before, but still not fantastically - the problem I have is that without multiple flyrants we simply don't have the firepower to take out key problem units. Last game (with a slight variation of the list) I shot my entire army at a group of cents for 3 turns, and due to IWND and barrage wound allocation, killed none of them. I had been using 3x Zoans with a Neurothrope for the greater potential to take out an IK if I get close enough, but it doesn't seem practical at all - since I had to choose whether they or the fex went in the pod.
I'd say the best units have been Biovores, the Dakkafex in pod, and ofc Flyrants. I think a more balanced list is the way you have to go in highlander - without being able to spam things we simply don't have the ability to consistently deal with otherwise hard counters.
he played a hell of an event, besides nick, cook and myself, there's no one else I was rooting for.more
So that's twice now. I can't wait for the frantic explanations about how 5 Tyrant is still the most competitive list in our dex tho 
In addition you likely need about 21 extra for spawns, you can recycle casualtys, but Murphys law says you'll take no losses when ever you want to spawn. 
playing vs. tau with null deployment it so much fun seeing there faces go 
sorry 
can your malanthrope talk to mine 