Tyran wrote: I don't have any problem with the model. It is a big balloon and that makes sense.
Its got tentacles that stick out every which way and catch on other models and terrain pieces. Just like the Toxicrine, it might look interesting, but it makes it difficult to use in game. I remodeled mine without the Tentacles after breaking a bunch of them off and knocking my Crone off its flightstand 4 or 5 times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm doing a little happy dance with the new Knight rules leaks. It looks like all Knights are LOW as they should have always been which means the game is somewhat restored to scalability, and the age of Mech takes another hit. Necron mech fades, then Eldar Mech, now IKnights probably getting limited to 0-1 at most events or outright banned. It changes the dynamics for Tyranids quite a bit.
Tyran wrote: I don't have any problem with the model. It is a big balloon and that makes sense.
Its got tentacles that stick out every which way and catch on other models and terrain pieces. Just like the Toxicrine, it might look interesting, but it makes it difficult to use in game. I remodeled mine without the Tentacles after breaking a bunch of them off and knocking my Crone off its flightstand 4 or 5 times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm doing a little happy dance with the new Knight rules leaks. It looks like all Knights are LOW as they should have always been which means the game is somewhat restored to scalability, and the age of Mech takes another hit. Necron mech fades, then Eldar Mech, now IKnights probably getting limited to 0-1 at most events or outright banned. It changes the dynamics for Tyranids quite a bit.
There is still the new detachments and formations - I'm pretty sure AdLance will be a thing still...hoping I'm wrong though
Cheers jy2, will flick through at some point today, v. important election going on
Wilson wrote: Pics of the new knights have already leaked. They are all now LOW
Well, in that case, I say goodbye and good riddance to Adlance in tournament play.
I really don't like this trend of building an army of Lord of Wars. In that case, what they should do for bugs in our next codex is to change the Trygon back into a T7-8 Gargantuan like he used to be. Oh, maybe make the dimachaeron a Gargantuan who can move 12" as well! Why not? That seems to be the trend (taking multiple LoW's in a detachment).
Wilson wrote: Pics of the new knights have already leaked. They are all now LOW
Well, in that case, I say goodbye and good riddance to Adlance in tournament play.
I really don't like this trend of building an army of Lord of Wars. In that case, what they should do for bugs in our next codex is to change the Trygon back into a T7-8 Gargantuan like he used to be. Oh, maybe make the dimachaeron a Gargantuan who can move 12" as well! Why not? That seems to be the trend (taking multiple LoW's in a detachment).
I'm still crossing my fingers for a plastic Dominatrix. I doubt i'll ever see it happen, but given the fast release schedule we've been seeing who knows.
I'm also eager to see if we end up getting a Genestealer Cult book too. That could make for some interesting games.
tetrisphreak wrote: I'm still crossing my fingers for a plastic Dominatrix. I doubt i'll ever see it happen, but given the fast release schedule we've been seeing who knows.
I'm also eager to see if we end up getting a Genestealer Cult book too. That could make for some interesting games.
Anytime someone mentions the Dominatrix, I've got to bring this up:
Spoiler:
My own Dominatrix.
And yes, a Genestealer Cult codex is in the works, or so the rumours go.
Solid Eldar tactica jy2. Couldn't find anything wrong/needed to be added. I might have a change of opinion when I get a few games in against them.
Thanks.
The Eldar are really strong. We need to bring some of our best just to deal with a decent Eldar army. It won't be easy, but we have the capability to beat them IMO.
SO I have found a core army I feel is very good. But I have about 460 points left over. So I was wanting to get some feedback on some of the variants I have been running.
The focus of this list is null deployment. It hits hard where I want it to. With the new Eldar and Necrons I have been trying to come up with a list that can counter these as well as IK. Find a balance for a TAC list been fun.
(1390pts) Base List
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarm Brood
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
Ripper Swarm Brood
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Formation Detachment) ++
+ Fortification +
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Hive Fleet Detachement) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
The first is a spam list that I tried out without the ADL and it was good. Now it has an ADL.
3 single units of Biovores
A Malanthrope
One more Fex’s
And 1 Tyrannocyte
E-grubs on all they tyrants.
The second variant. Give me a unit that is more expensive than a tyrant for Big game hunters in the ITC format. I have found this alternate to be really nice in my opponents back field. While in cover with FNP it is hard to kill while being a good anchor for the fex’s.
I dropped a ripper’s swarm
Add a Mawloc
Warrior unit with 2 with rending claws and 3 with bonesword lashwhip. All have Deathspitters TS and Spine banks. They ride in a Tyrannocyte
Alternate 3
Has my fav. models in the raveners.
7 raveners with deathspiters and rending
1 Mawloc
Or
Two units of 5 raveners.
All of these style give me options but I am not sold on them yet.
The one that spams tyrants and fex’s is really good.. but..
Frozocrone wrote: That is an expensive core. Mine is usually two Flyrants, Rippers and that's it.
I'd use Mawlocs and Lictors to supplement that list.
It is the core for what I feel is a solid Null deployment list.
I have the Mawlocs but not the lictors. I am not a huge fan of them but I have seen their uses.
Has anyone ever purchased a comms relay without an associated fortification?
In the Stronghold book it says the following:
"The following list sum m arises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
It would certainly be more points efficient if I could buy a Comms Relay by itself. I don't see running a Tyranid Tourney list without one in the near future.
tag8833 wrote: Has anyone ever purchased a comms relay without an associated fortification?
In the Stronghold book it says the following:
"The following list sum m arises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
It would certainly be more points efficient if I could buy a Comms Relay by itself. I don't see running a Tyranid Tourney list without one in the near future.
I don't have my book with me, but I am 99% sure that they can't be bought separately.
tag8833 wrote: Has anyone ever purchased a comms relay without an associated fortification?
In the Stronghold book it says the following:
"The following list sum m arises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
It would certainly be more points efficient if I could buy a Comms Relay by itself. I don't see running a Tyranid Tourney list without one in the near future.
I don't have my book with me, but I am 99% sure that they can't be bought separately.
That is what I thought, but someone submitted a list for our tourney tomorrow that did so, and when challenged produced that quote. I've confirmed it is legit in the Stronghold assault book. I don't think it is ambiguous. I checked all the FAQ's. Battlefield debris can definitely be purchased alone, but it takes a fortification slot. Usually I've been happy to have the fortification as well, but with Newdar, and AD Mech upping the power of alpha strikes significantly, I'm moving more and more towards null deployment.
tag8833 wrote: Has anyone ever purchased a comms relay without an associated fortification?
In the Stronghold book it says the following:
"The following list sum m arises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
It would certainly be more points efficient if I could buy a Comms Relay by itself. I don't see running a Tyranid Tourney list without one in the near future.
I don't have my book with me, but I am 99% sure that they can't be bought separately.
That is what I thought, but someone submitted a list for our tourney tomorrow that did so, and when challenged produced that quote. I've confirmed it is legit in the Stronghold assault book. I don't think it is ambiguous. I checked all the FAQ's. Battlefield debris can definitely be purchased alone, but it takes a fortification slot. Usually I've been happy to have the fortification as well, but with Newdar, and AD Mech upping the power of alpha strikes significantly, I'm moving more and more towards null deployment.
Even if it turns out to be legal, I don't know that it will be in any way a benefit...how is a comms relay going to survive without a fortification to protect it? The whole point of null deployment is the recognition of an overwhelming Alpha. So, how will it be useful?
tag8833 wrote: Has anyone ever purchased a comms relay without an associated fortification?
In the Stronghold book it says the following:
"The following list sum m arises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
It would certainly be more points efficient if I could buy a Comms Relay by itself. I don't see running a Tyranid Tourney list without one in the near future.
I don't have my book with me, but I am 99% sure that they can't be bought separately.
That is what I thought, but someone submitted a list for our tourney tomorrow that did so, and when challenged produced that quote. I've confirmed it is legit in the Stronghold assault book. I don't think it is ambiguous. I checked all the FAQ's. Battlefield debris can definitely be purchased alone, but it takes a fortification slot. Usually I've been happy to have the fortification as well, but with Newdar, and AD Mech upping the power of alpha strikes significantly, I'm moving more and more towards null deployment.
I also can't find anything saying that you can't take battlefield debris as your fortification either, so it appears to be all good.
tag8833 wrote: Has anyone ever purchased a comms relay without an associated fortification?
In the Stronghold book it says the following:
"The following list sum m arises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
It would certainly be more points efficient if I could buy a Comms Relay by itself. I don't see running a Tyranid Tourney list without one in the near future.
I don't have my book with me, but I am 99% sure that they can't be bought separately.
That is what I thought, but someone submitted a list for our tourney tomorrow that did so, and when challenged produced that quote. I've confirmed it is legit in the Stronghold assault book. I don't think it is ambiguous. I checked all the FAQ's. Battlefield debris can definitely be purchased alone, but it takes a fortification slot. Usually I've been happy to have the fortification as well, but with Newdar, and AD Mech upping the power of alpha strikes significantly, I'm moving more and more towards null deployment.
Even if it turns out to be legal, I don't know that it will be in any way a benefit...how is a comms relay going to survive without a fortification to protect it? The whole point of null deployment is the recognition of an overwhelming Alpha. So, how will it be useful?
Put it behind Blocking-LOS terrain. Or use small models - spore mines or ripper swarms - to man it. They are usually small enough to hide behind many terrain.
Btw, you do realize that the Comms cannot be killed, right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
shadowfinder wrote: SO I have found a core army I feel is very good. But I have about 460 points left over. So I was wanting to get some feedback on some of the variants I have been running.
The focus of this list is null deployment. It hits hard where I want it to. With the new Eldar and Necrons I have been trying to come up with a list that can counter these as well as IK. Find a balance for a TAC list been fun.
(1390pts) Base List
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarm Brood
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
Ripper Swarm Brood
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Formation Detachment) ++
+ Fortification +
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Hive Fleet Detachement) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
The first is a spam list that I tried out without the ADL and it was good. Now it has an ADL.
3 single units of Biovores
A Malanthrope
One more Fex’s
And 1 Tyrannocyte
E-grubs on all they tyrants.
The second variant. Give me a unit that is more expensive than a tyrant for Big game hunters in the ITC format. I have found this alternate to be really nice in my opponents back field. While in cover with FNP it is hard to kill while being a good anchor for the fex’s.
I dropped a ripper’s swarm
Add a Mawloc
Warrior unit with 2 with rending claws and 3 with bonesword lashwhip. All have Deathspitters TS and Spine banks. They ride in a Tyrannocyte
Alternate 3
Has my fav. models in the raveners.
7 raveners with deathspiters and rending
1 Mawloc
Or
Two units of 5 raveners.
All of these style give me options but I am not sold on them yet.
The one that spams tyrants and fex’s is really good.. but..
So please let me know what you all think.
Option 1 (w/3x1 Biovores):
I'm not a big fan of this list. It has 2 main liabilities - 1) VP missions/Maelstrom Secondaries and 2) Big Guns. Let's face it, you rarely ever split up 3 biovores because 1) you'll end up putting them behind 1 single BLOS terrain, 2) they need Synapse to function and splitting them up out of Synapse range reduces their potency, 3) they want to be within Malanthrope range behind the Aegis so they're pretty much going to be together anyways and 4) of course, they are big liabilities in the 2 mission types above.
I do, however, like the idead of a third fex in spore.
Option 2 (Warriors in spore):
Slow, assault Tyranid deathstar is not a viable competitive build. Any decent army will take them out with no problem, especially since most likely they will be out of Malanthrope range. Or your opponent can just get away from them.
Option 3 (Raveners):
I like Raveners as well. Better than warriors because at least they've got the mobility. You can also string them out to be within malanthrope range. This list has potential and either configurations are good. It also gives your army much better board control, unless you're playing against a better assault army or deathstar armies.
Of the 3 builds to add to your core, I like Option #3 the most and then Option #1 2nd. I don't like Option #2. Sorry to say, but warriors are garbage. Better to go with Shrikes instead.
"Fail to survive" does not mean "killed" It means the big bad Alpha Strike exterminates anything near ir, then most likely the foe takes charge of the area. With a Null deployment, you have already done your foe the large favor of simplifying his targeting choices.
BLOS usually does the most good when it is near the center, but that makes it easy to maneuver around to give fire. One of the oldest Alpha builds is Pods O'Plenty! And it does not fear BLOS at all, unless you can screen, but you can't usually because you are a Null deploy.
I have the strong feeling Jetbikes will also seldom find terrain much of an issue(zooming around to get a LOS), and Tau may find new ways to generate line of sight as time goes by.
Dark Eldar will need to DS, but they can, so it may work well against some. Imperials can use Big Artillery that tend to hit anywhere they wish...
So, all in all, I don't see how it will "survive" long enough to be useful.
....It means the big bad Alpha Strike exterminates anything near ir, then most likely the foe takes charge of the area. With a Null deployment, you have already done your foe the large favor of simplifying his targeting choices.
BLOS usually does the most good when it is near the center, but that makes it easy to maneuver around to give fire. One of the oldest Alpha builds is Pods O'Plenty! And it does not fear BLOS at all, unless you can screen, but you can't usually because you are a Null deploy.
I have the strong feeling Jetbikes will also seldom find terrain much of an issue(zooming around to get a LOS), and Tau may find new ways to generate line of sight as time goes by.
Dark Eldar will need to DS, but they can, so it may work well against some. Imperials can use Big Artillery that tend to hit anywhere they wish...
So, all in all, I don't see how it will "survive" long enough to be useful.
Yes, that's the risk when running the Comms without an actual fortification. Wanna save a few bucks at the higher risk of losing your units? That's the trade-off.
With regards to null deployment armies, you NEED to make sure whatever units you deploy has to be able to survive your opponent's alpha-strike. At that point, who cares about the Comms. It is a matter of survival against a heavy alpha-strike army. Reserves is secondary to not being tabled on T1. In such a case, if you have to, deploy your flyrants, lictors, mawlocs, whatever it takes to survive, even if you are running a Null-deployment army. Null-deployment gives you the flexibility to reserve the majority of your army, but you don't necessarily have to.
As for drop pod armies, deploy your Comms far away from any objectives. If you want, depoy 1 flyrant as well as "bait". Then when your opponent deepstrikes to "alpha-strike" your army, fine. Afterwards, they will be out of action for a while as they have to slowly footslog to the other objectives. Remember to keep just enough units on the table so that you won't be "tabled" on Turn 1.
Eldar jetbikes won't be able to get to your unit if it is behind BLOS terrain because they will be too afraid of retalitorial strike from your flyrants. This is what they will do. They will move to shoot at your units (if any) and then they will jump back behind whatever BLOS is closest to them. If they stay out in the open (i.e. when they try to maneuver to hit your units behind BLOS terrain), then your flyrants will get the beta-strike on them when they come in from Reserves or when they move out from behind BLOS terrain themselves.
Tau has SMS, which could be troublesome on the riptides, that is, if they aggressively advance those tides. But again, riptides have to respect the firepower and psychic abilities of flyrants.
Dark Eldar....um, yeah right. Tyranids own Dark Eldar currently.
Imperial Artillery? Putting them behind BLOS terrain is still your best bet, but instead of manning it with gribblies, put a flyrant or MC there (or even the malanthrope) and see how much damage those Wyverns will do (answer: not much).
Of course, all of this is assuming there is BLOS terrain near the Tyranid deployment zone. If not, then you're sh*t out of luck. The Comms by itself can work if there is BLOS terrain, but do you want to take that gamble or would you prefer to bring your own BLOS terrain (in the form of a bunker of bastion). That's what it really boils down to.
Went to an RTT yesterday. Newdar was in, and un-nerfed. Just under 1/2 of the armies had a wraith Knight. IG + Wraith Knight. Marines + Wraith Knight. Eldar + Wratih Knight.
That new formation that allows you to take 1 Wraith Knight and noting else made it a very popular inclusion. I got to final table with my Green Tide vs a Tau Gunline and lost to the Tau, but IG + Wraith Knight was 2nd.
Frozocrone wrote: The new Imperial Knights are disgusting but after Craftworlds they needed a leg up.
So there are now Skyfiring Knights which iis good, but it is nothing compared to Household detachment which gives them Obj sec.
My picj up and play scene just took a turn for the worst
Not really. They got a little bit better. They also got a little bit worse.
Mainly, they've become Lord of Wars. That's bad for the following reasons:
1. Most tournaments in the US - ITC, Adepticon, Nova - only allow 0-1 Super-heavy/Gargantuan LoW. Nova actually currently doesn't allow any at all. Until they change it here, you CANNOT legally run a knight army in a lot of US tournaments.
2. You always get +1 to Seize against the army.
3. They aren't much harder to kill with our flyrants than before.
4. For every Super-heavy LoW you kill, you get an additional +2VP's. So kill 3 knights and you've got a +6VP advantage. That's like getting 2 free objectives!
Iechine wrote: What do they have going for them now? Work has it to where I just cant keep up. : /
EDIT: Against Tyranids, I should ask.
Well, they can take the equivalent of a Quad-gun (not sure if it's twin-linked though) for anti-air. After that, not really much has changed, other than the fact that each knight is a Lord of War Super-heavy and they can also be Objective Secured depending on what formations you take.
They've also got a lot of formations to choose from.
Oh, and they've become a little more customizable than before. Before, they had no options whatsoever. Now, you can take them with 2 CC-weapons, 1 CC + 1 gun or 2 guns. You can also take a carapace-mounted gun for them as well (that's where you can give them anti-air firepower).
tag8833 wrote: Went to an RTT yesterday. Newdar was in, and un-nerfed. Just under 1/2 of the armies had a wraith Knight. IG + Wraith Knight. Marines + Wraith Knight. Eldar + Wratih Knight.
That new formation that allows you to take 1 Wraith Knight and noting else made it a very popular inclusion. I got to final table with my Green Tide vs a Tau Gunline and lost to the Tau, but IG + Wraith Knight was 2nd.
I really don't like that mechanic. It's stupid to just add 1 wraithknight to any army or 1 unit of Flayed Ones or even 1 Lord of Skulls to any army. Sh*t, we are spiraling more and more towards Unbound with some of these "formations". Thank goodness TO's are not stupid enough to go by pure GWRAW and are doing a lot of house-ruling.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: Really? Does the Escalation rulebook apply in standard 40k games?
If so, I'm going to claim a draw right from under my friends nose xD
Escalation is as official as Stronghold Assault, so if you have the book, then you can use it. Just check with the TO in your meta. In our meta, which is basically the ITC, then yes, they do give up +1VP/3HP's you take from them. We also have a 0-1 limit on LoW's in our meta.
Note - Escalation is slightly outdated so you do have to check it's FAQ's. For example, you don't use the Destroyer table in the Escalation book and instead use the Destroyer table in the BRB (the Escalation FAQ tells you to do this).
Finally getting ready for Killadelphia next weekend. Made new magnetized arms for my Superbeast Tyrant, here is his Reaper of Obliterax:
What kind of changes are we expecting with an all-too-soon to be released Tyranid dex? Will Exocrines get D? Will Tyrants gain AP values? Will 2+ saves be a thing again?
What is everyone's opinion on skyblight vs craftworld eldar? I feel like bringing DS gargoyles back on a 4+ is pretty nice, especially with lictors to guide them in. The harpies also seem like less of a tax now, since their vector strike can actually hurt bikes, and the TL stranglethorn cannon also has the ability to put a hurt on bikes.
I've been working on two lists, and would love some input on them:
LAN
3x warriors w/ barbed strangler
2x biovores
exocrine
CAD 2x flyrants w/ 2x devs and e-grubs
mucolid
3x rippers with DS Tyrannocyte
The first list uses lictors to guide mawlocs and gargs in and works more toward scoring. I think this list is best used in maelstrom type games. The second list has a stronger focus on shooting, with the artillery node providing out of LoS shooting from the biovores as well as the exocrine in the tyrannocyte as a sort of beta strike. Any thoughts would be appreciated as I'm still pretty new to nids.
tag8833 wrote: Went to an RTT yesterday. Newdar was in, and un-nerfed. Just under 1/2 of the armies had a wraith Knight. IG + Wraith Knight. Marines + Wraith Knight. Eldar + Wratih Knight.
That new formation that allows you to take 1 Wraith Knight and noting else made it a very popular inclusion. I got to final table with my Green Tide vs a Tau Gunline and lost to the Tau, but IG + Wraith Knight was 2nd.
That isn't actually a formation. It's an auxillary choice in the craftworld warhost formation, but can't be taken on it's own. The only formations in the eldar codex are the guardian battlehost, guardian stormhost, windrider host, seer council, aspect host, dire avenger shrine, crimson death, and the wraith host.
tag8833 wrote: Has anyone ever purchased a comms relay without an associated fortification?
In the Stronghold book it says the following:
"The following list sum m arises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
It would certainly be more points efficient if I could buy a Comms Relay by itself. I don't see running a Tyranid Tourney list without one in the near future.
I don't have my book with me, but I am 99% sure that they can't be bought separately.
That is what I thought, but someone submitted a list for our tourney tomorrow that did so, and when challenged produced that quote. I've confirmed it is legit in the Stronghold assault book. I don't think it is ambiguous. I checked all the FAQ's. Battlefield debris can definitely be purchased alone, but it takes a fortification slot. Usually I've been happy to have the fortification as well, but with Newdar, and AD Mech upping the power of alpha strikes significantly, I'm moving more and more towards null deployment.
Ok, I got my book out and looked it up. The quote you listed above is indeed a quote from the book:
The following list summarises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right.
But, this is in regards to a list of the following: Ammunition Dump, Barricades and Walls, Comms Relay, Defense Lines, Gun Emplacements, Imperial Statuary, Tanglewire, Tank Traps, and Wreckage and Rubble. Now some of the list is available as separate fortifications, such as Defense Lines (Aegis) and the Imperial Statuary. I do not believe this means that all of the list can be taken as individuals, or as upgrades. The inverse of this is that an Imperial Statuary could also be taken as an upgrade to a Fortification, which I do not believe is true. The intended reading of the quoted line is, I believe, that some of the items listed below it are upgrades, and some are fortifications. If nothing else, there is no datasheet or points cost for taking a Comms Relay on its own. The only points assigned are when it is specifically listed as an upgrade, there is no section that states how many points it is as a stand alone unit or Fortification.
My conclusion, therefore, is that it still may not be taken as a stand alone fortification sadly.
Just got back from a Highlander tourney this weekend - was really good, ended up 5th with Nids! Noone expected the 3 FMCs I brought, and skyfire was sparse. Took Regen on 4 MCs and felt it generally didn't really pull its weight - especially on Harpies/Crones. Dakkafex in a pod was an absolute hero, sniping Shadowsun off the relic last turn to net me a draw against a brutal Farsight bomb list. The pod itself was also incredible - the sheer weight of Str6 fire from it (took VCs), the fex and the flyrant were doing huge damage. I really would recommend the VCs, though their effectiveness drops if facing Marines (which I happened to not). I think I wanna try 2x Fexes in pods in normal games now! Other highlights include the Zoanthrope 1-shotting a 5 HP forgeworld LR and the Venomthrope doing about 9 wounds to a dronestar with Toxic Miasma. The latter made me wonder about the Hypertoxic node - if you can plant the Venoms in cover it's hard to displace them and you are guaranteed to get it off VS anything without assault nades.
Benlisted wrote: Just got back from a Highlander tourney this weekend - was really good, ended up 5th with Nids! Noone expected the 3 FMCs I brought, and skyfire was sparse. Took Regen on 4 MCs and felt it generally didn't really pull its weight - especially on Harpies/Crones. Dakkafex in a pod was an absolute hero, sniping Shadowsun off the relic last turn to net me a draw against a brutal Farsight bomb list. The pod itself was also incredible - the sheer weight of Str6 fire from it (took VCs), the fex and the flyrant were doing huge damage. I really would recommend the VCs, though their effectiveness drops if facing Marines (which I happened to not). I think I wanna try 2x Fexes in pods in normal games now! Other highlights include the Zoanthrope 1-shotting a 5 HP forgeworld LR and the Venomthrope doing about 9 wounds to a dronestar with Toxic Miasma. The latter made me wonder about the Hypertoxic node - if you can plant the Venoms in cover it's hard to displace them and you are guaranteed to get it off VS anything without assault nades.
tag8833 wrote: Went to an RTT yesterday. Newdar was in, and un-nerfed. Just under 1/2 of the armies had a wraith Knight. IG + Wraith Knight. Marines + Wraith Knight. Eldar + Wratih Knight.
That new formation that allows you to take 1 Wraith Knight and noting else made it a very popular inclusion. I got to final table with my Green Tide vs a Tau Gunline and lost to the Tau, but IG + Wraith Knight was 2nd.
I really don't like that mechanic. It's stupid to just add 1 wraithknight to any army or 1 unit of Flayed Ones or even 1 Lord of Skulls to any army. Sh*t, we are spiraling more and more towards Unbound with some of these "formations". Thank goodness TO's are not stupid enough to go by pure GWRAW and are doing a lot of house-ruling.
Hrm, is that a thing? I was kinda under the impression it isn't actually a formation, just an auxiliary choice in an eldar warhost detachment, as there isn't a separate formation listing at the end of the book (with the other formations)?
Benlisted wrote: Just got back from a Highlander tourney this weekend - was really good, ended up 5th with Nids! Noone expected the 3 FMCs I brought, and skyfire was sparse. Took Regen on 4 MCs and felt it generally didn't really pull its weight - especially on Harpies/Crones. Dakkafex in a pod was an absolute hero, sniping Shadowsun off the relic last turn to net me a draw against a brutal Farsight bomb list. The pod itself was also incredible - the sheer weight of Str6 fire from it (took VCs), the fex and the flyrant were doing huge damage. I really would recommend the VCs, though their effectiveness drops if facing Marines (which I happened to not). I think I wanna try 2x Fexes in pods in normal games now! Other highlights include the Zoanthrope 1-shotting a 5 HP forgeworld LR and the Venomthrope doing about 9 wounds to a dronestar with Toxic Miasma. The latter made me wonder about the Hypertoxic node - if you can plant the Venoms in cover it's hard to displace them and you are guaranteed to get it off VS anything without assault nades.
Were you at the Warzone Wednesbury event?
Yup, only Nid player! Was a really good event were you there too?
Finally getting ready for Killadelphia next weekend. Made new magnetized arms for my Superbeast Tyrant, here is his Reaper of Obliterax:
What kind of changes are we expecting with an all-too-soon to be released Tyranid dex? Will Exocrines get D? Will Tyrants gain AP values? Will 2+ saves be a thing again?
Nice! Be sure to show your complete army when you get the chance.
And I expect a summary of how you do at the event.
With regards to the new Tyranid dex, I don't know for sure, but I hope they don't nerf the hell out of our flyrants. That's what they tend to do, nerf the hell out of all the best units in each release.
IndigoJack wrote: What is everyone's opinion on skyblight vs craftworld eldar? I feel like bringing DS gargoyles back on a 4+ is pretty nice, especially with lictors to guide them in. The harpies also seem like less of a tax now, since their vector strike can actually hurt bikes, and the TL stranglethorn cannon also has the ability to put a hurt on bikes.
I've been working on two lists, and would love some input on them:
LAN
3x warriors w/ barbed strangler
2x biovores
exocrine
CAD 2x flyrants w/ 2x devs and e-grubs
mucolid
3x rippers with DS Tyrannocyte
The first list uses lictors to guide mawlocs and gargs in and works more toward scoring. I think this list is best used in maelstrom type games. The second list has a stronger focus on shooting, with the artillery node providing out of LoS shooting from the biovores as well as the exocrine in the tyrannocyte as a sort of beta strike. Any thoughts would be appreciated as I'm still pretty new to nids.
Skyblight is still good and strong. As a matter of fact, the next time I run my bugs, I might do Leviathan + Skyblight.
Personally, I prefer List #1 mainly because I like to play a null-deployment list and mawlocs are better for my style-of-play than LAN. However, both lists are strong and you can't really go wrong with either. The question really is which one would you think is funner to play for you?
tag8833 wrote: Went to an RTT yesterday. Newdar was in, and un-nerfed. Just under 1/2 of the armies had a wraith Knight. IG + Wraith Knight. Marines + Wraith Knight. Eldar + Wratih Knight.
That new formation that allows you to take 1 Wraith Knight and noting else made it a very popular inclusion. I got to final table with my Green Tide vs a Tau Gunline and lost to the Tau, but IG + Wraith Knight was 2nd.
That isn't actually a formation. It's an auxillary choice in the craftworld warhost formation, but can't be taken on it's own. The only formations in the eldar codex are the guardian battlehost, guardian stormhost, windrider host, seer council, aspect host, dire avenger shrine, crimson death, and the wraith host.
tag8833 wrote: Went to an RTT yesterday. Newdar was in, and un-nerfed. Just under 1/2 of the armies had a wraith Knight. IG + Wraith Knight. Marines + Wraith Knight. Eldar + Wratih Knight.
That new formation that allows you to take 1 Wraith Knight and noting else made it a very popular inclusion. I got to final table with my Green Tide vs a Tau Gunline and lost to the Tau, but IG + Wraith Knight was 2nd.
I really don't like that mechanic. It's stupid to just add 1 wraithknight to any army or 1 unit of Flayed Ones or even 1 Lord of Skulls to any army. Sh*t, we are spiraling more and more towards Unbound with some of these "formations". Thank goodness TO's are not stupid enough to go by pure GWRAW and are doing a lot of house-ruling.
Hrm, is that a thing? I was kinda under the impression it isn't actually a formation, just an auxiliary choice in an eldar warhost detachment, as there isn't a separate formation listing at the end of the book (with the other formations)?
Pretty sure that's how it works?
That really depends on how the TO inteprets it. In the case of the TO (tournament organizer) that tag8833 mentioned, obviously, he intrepreted each Auxiliary unit in the Warhost detachment as a separate formation (even if it is a formation of 1 unit).
In the ITC format, they interpret it as formations and auxiliary dataslates. They have a restriction of 0-1 on any formations (thus, cannot take more than 1 seer council in the ITC format) but no restrictions on auxiliary dataslate units (i.e. you can up to 12 wraithlords if you want).
In short, I think you are both right, but it's best to check with the TO of the event as to how he's going to rule it for his tournament.
tag8833 wrote: Has anyone ever purchased a comms relay without an associated fortification?
In the Stronghold book it says the following:
"The following list sum m arises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right."
It would certainly be more points efficient if I could buy a Comms Relay by itself. I don't see running a Tyranid Tourney list without one in the near future.
I don't have my book with me, but I am 99% sure that they can't be bought separately.
That is what I thought, but someone submitted a list for our tourney tomorrow that did so, and when challenged produced that quote. I've confirmed it is legit in the Stronghold assault book. I don't think it is ambiguous. I checked all the FAQ's. Battlefield debris can definitely be purchased alone, but it takes a fortification slot. Usually I've been happy to have the fortification as well, but with Newdar, and AD Mech upping the power of alpha strikes significantly, I'm moving more and more towards null deployment.
Ok, I got my book out and looked it up. The quote you listed above is indeed a quote from the book:
The following list summarises the rules for battlefield debris that can be purchased as an upgrade to a fortification, or as fortifications in their own right.
But, this is in regards to a list of the following: Ammunition Dump, Barricades and Walls, Comms Relay, Defense Lines, Gun Emplacements, Imperial Statuary, Tanglewire, Tank Traps, and Wreckage and Rubble. Now some of the list is available as separate fortifications, such as Defense Lines (Aegis) and the Imperial Statuary. I do not believe this means that all of the list can be taken as individuals, or as upgrades. The inverse of this is that an Imperial Statuary could also be taken as an upgrade to a Fortification, which I do not believe is true. The intended reading of the quoted line is, I believe, that some of the items listed below it are upgrades, and some are fortifications. If nothing else, there is no datasheet or points cost for taking a Comms Relay on its own. The only points assigned are when it is specifically listed as an upgrade, there is no section that states how many points it is as a stand alone unit or Fortification.
My conclusion, therefore, is that it still may not be taken as a stand alone fortification sadly.
Best bet? Check with the TO of your event beforehand.
Benlisted wrote: Just got back from a Highlander tourney this weekend - was really good, ended up 5th with Nids! Noone expected the 3 FMCs I brought, and skyfire was sparse. Took Regen on 4 MCs and felt it generally didn't really pull its weight - especially on Harpies/Crones. Dakkafex in a pod was an absolute hero, sniping Shadowsun off the relic last turn to net me a draw against a brutal Farsight bomb list. The pod itself was also incredible - the sheer weight of Str6 fire from it (took VCs), the fex and the flyrant were doing huge damage. I really would recommend the VCs, though their effectiveness drops if facing Marines (which I happened to not). I think I wanna try 2x Fexes in pods in normal games now! Other highlights include the Zoanthrope 1-shotting a 5 HP forgeworld LR and the Venomthrope doing about 9 wounds to a dronestar with Toxic Miasma. The latter made me wonder about the Hypertoxic node - if you can plant the Venoms in cover it's hard to displace them and you are guaranteed to get it off VS anything without assault nades.
Seems like you had extremely good luck in some of your games.
While Highlander Tyranids can do well, don't expect it to be like that all the time, especially against the likes of Eldar, the centstar or some of the other Highlander armies out there.
tag8833 wrote: Went to an RTT yesterday. Newdar was in, and un-nerfed. Just under 1/2 of the armies had a wraith Knight. IG + Wraith Knight. Marines + Wraith Knight. Eldar + Wratih Knight.
That new formation that allows you to take 1 Wraith Knight and noting else made it a very popular inclusion. I got to final table with my Green Tide vs a Tau Gunline and lost to the Tau, but IG + Wraith Knight was 2nd.
There is no formation that allows you to take 1 wraith knight. Just like there is no formation that allows you to tkae 1 deathmark unit. These are just unit datasheets that can be taken as auxiliary selections in a composite detachment but are otherwise just unit datasheets. A formation must be spelled out in a datasheet and there is no such datasheet in the eldar book (etc for Necrons and Daemonkin).
This is a common confusion with the composite detachments and the unit selection options they have -- many of them are not formations.
EDIT -- already addressed -- what I get for failing to submit last night
Benlisted wrote: Just got back from a Highlander tourney this weekend - was really good, ended up 5th with Nids! Noone expected the 3 FMCs I brought, and skyfire was sparse. Took Regen on 4 MCs and felt it generally didn't really pull its weight - especially on Harpies/Crones. Dakkafex in a pod was an absolute hero, sniping Shadowsun off the relic last turn to net me a draw against a brutal Farsight bomb list. The pod itself was also incredible - the sheer weight of Str6 fire from it (took VCs), the fex and the flyrant were doing huge damage. I really would recommend the VCs, though their effectiveness drops if facing Marines (which I happened to not). I think I wanna try 2x Fexes in pods in normal games now! Other highlights include the Zoanthrope 1-shotting a 5 HP forgeworld LR and the Venomthrope doing about 9 wounds to a dronestar with Toxic Miasma. The latter made me wonder about the Hypertoxic node - if you can plant the Venoms in cover it's hard to displace them and you are guaranteed to get it off VS anything without assault nades.
Were you at the Warzone Wednesbury event?
Yup, only Nid player! Was a really good event were you there too?
I was supposed to be but had to drop out, I ran one in Leicester a couple of weeks before though.
Eldercaveman wrote:I was supposed to be but had to drop out, I ran one in Leicester a couple of weeks before though.
That's unfortunate - I think I heard about that event though, how did it go? What list were you planning to run at WS10?
jy2 wrote:Seems like you had extremely good luck in some of your games.
While Highlander Tyranids can do well, don't expect it to be like that all the time, especially against the likes of Eldar, the centstar or some of the other Highlander armies out there.
*shrug* we play a dice game, the luck goes both ways. The things I mentioned as highlights were just the most dramatic moments - the only statistically unlikely thing was the Zoan shot, and that made 0 difference to the game as it ended immediately after (and hadn't been on an objective. Similarly, in the last game the Warp Storm hit an 11 and nailed my Flyrant (and later my Fex)... I don't think my ingame luck was anything particularly special. I did get fairly lucky on the matchups - though Tau is my most troublesome one and that did come up.
I know how hard cents and Eldar can be, as I went with two guys taking each and had been playtesting with them for months. Still, the fliers seemed to be a good meta call.
jy2 wrote:Seems like you had extremely good luck in some of your games.
While Highlander Tyranids can do well, don't expect it to be like that all the time, especially against the likes of Eldar, the centstar or some of the other Highlander armies out there.
*shrug* we play a dice game, the luck goes both ways. The things I mentioned as highlights were just the most dramatic moments - the only statistically unlikely thing was the Zoan shot, and that made 0 difference to the game as it ended immediately after (and hadn't been on an objective. Similarly, in the last game the Warp Storm hit an 11 and nailed my Flyrant (and later my Fex)... I don't think my ingame luck was anything particularly special. I did get fairly lucky on the matchups - though Tau is my most troublesome one and that did come up.
I know how hard cents and Eldar can be, as I went with two guys taking each and had been playtesting with them for months. Still, the fliers seemed to be a good meta call.
I don't mean to take anything away from your wins, especially against Tau. All I am saying is that some armies will stand up great in Highlander formats - the Centstar, Tau, Eldar, Daemons (because of Summoning) and certain deathstar armies. Others....not as great. While FMC bugs gives us a better chance to deal with these types of armies, IMO, we are not a great Highlander army. We're not bad and we can potentially give certain armies some problems. However, we ourselves will have problems against a lot of armies as well. The sign of a good Highlander army is one that won't have a lot of bad matchups because they are highly flexible and adaptable.
jy2 wrote: That really depends on how the TO inteprets it. In the case of the TO (tournament organizer) that tag8833 mentioned, obviously, he intrepreted each Auxiliary unit in the Warhost detachment as a separate formation (even if it is a formation of 1 unit).
In the ITC format, they interpret it as formations and auxiliary dataslates. They have a restriction of 0-1 on any formations (thus, cannot take more than 1 seer council in the ITC format) but no restrictions on auxiliary dataslate units (i.e. you can up to 12 wraithlords if you want).
In short, I think you are both right, but it's best to check with the TO of the event as to how he's going to rule it for his tournament.
jy2 there really isn't any room for interpretation in this case. If you read the Forces of the Craftworlds section you will see that this is actually disallowed in 2 ways;
1) The auxiliary choices require you take take a core choice. The aux choices also have a single skull symbol to indicate them as such.
2) Formations have a triple skull symbol. It clearly says that formations in this codex are marked with said symbol. Without this symbol you have absolutely no permission to call the aux choice a formation (in fact you have been told by inference it is not a formation).
So not only is it clearly not a formation but it clearly states that you would need to take a core choice to take an auxiliary choice...which would be a craftworld warhost.
jy2 wrote: I don't mean to take anything away from your wins, especially against Tau. All I am saying is that some armies will stand up great in Highlander formats - the Centstar, Tau, Eldar, Daemons (because of Summoning) and certain deathstar armies. Others....not as great. While FMC bugs gives us a better chance to deal with these types of armies, IMO, we are not a great Highlander army. We're not bad and we can potentially give certain armies some problems. However, we ourselves will have problems against a lot of armies as well. The sign of a good Highlander army is one that won't have a lot of bad matchups because they are highly flexible and adaptable.
I do agree tbh - the Tau I played was Farsight Bomb, which is better than pure gunline for us (imo anyway). I also only scraped a draw! I had huge trouble building a list for the setup - we really do like to spam things and not being able to do so hurts the focus of the army. A main issue is also a source limit which was in place, meaning I could only take one of Leviathan/Stronghold/IA. The FMC list seemed like the best way to go in any case!
Eldercaveman wrote:I was supposed to be but had to drop out, I ran one in Leicester a couple of weeks before though.
That's unfortunate - I think I heard about that event though, how did it go? What list were you planning to run at WS10?
Not sure to be fair, their rules changes with squadrons and source limit classifications kind of killed me and couple others keen for the event. I see you ran into Ryland's Daemons in Round 5!
My event went really well, Ryland finished second there with the Daemon list, he and 2 others bought identical lists, one of them won the whole thing. It's a brutal Highlander list.
Eldercaveman wrote:I was supposed to be but had to drop out, I ran one in Leicester a couple of weeks before though.
That's unfortunate - I think I heard about that event though, how did it go? What list were you planning to run at WS10?
Not sure to be fair, their rules changes with squadrons and source limit classifications kind of killed me and couple others keen for the event. I see you ran into Ryland's Daemons in Round 5!
My event went really well, Ryland finished second there with the Daemon list, he and 2 others bought identical lists, one of them won the whole thing. It's a brutal Highlander list.
What was the list pray tell? Ive been needing some inspiration for daemon lists as I'm kind of in a rut.
jy2 wrote: That really depends on how the TO inteprets it. In the case of the TO (tournament organizer) that tag8833 mentioned, obviously, he intrepreted each Auxiliary unit in the Warhost detachment as a separate formation (even if it is a formation of 1 unit).
In the ITC format, they interpret it as formations and auxiliary dataslates. They have a restriction of 0-1 on any formations (thus, cannot take more than 1 seer council in the ITC format) but no restrictions on auxiliary dataslate units (i.e. you can up to 12 wraithlords if you want).
In short, I think you are both right, but it's best to check with the TO of the event as to how he's going to rule it for his tournament.
The TO in question was me. Or rather another person in the rotation was head TO for this event but he asked me what I thought, and I asked ATC since we were using their format. ATC replied with something like "We are still considering it". So I looked to ITC which I thought had ruled that all sub formations of the Decurion were also separate formations in their own right. I didn't see the new Eldar Codex until I played against it. I'll check it out, because if indeed it is as you guys suggestion that the auxiliary formations must be taken inside an Eldar Warhost, I will be very much relieved.
jy2 wrote: That really depends on how the TO inteprets it. In the case of the TO (tournament organizer) that tag8833 mentioned, obviously, he intrepreted each Auxiliary unit in the Warhost detachment as a separate formation (even if it is a formation of 1 unit).
In the ITC format, they interpret it as formations and auxiliary dataslates. They have a restriction of 0-1 on any formations (thus, cannot take more than 1 seer council in the ITC format) but no restrictions on auxiliary dataslate units (i.e. you can up to 12 wraithlords if you want).
In short, I think you are both right, but it's best to check with the TO of the event as to how he's going to rule it for his tournament.
jy2 there really isn't any room for interpretation in this case. If you read the Forces of the Craftworlds section you will see that this is actually disallowed in 2 ways;
1) The auxiliary choices require you take take a core choice. The aux choices also have a single skull symbol to indicate them as such.
2) Formations have a triple skull symbol. It clearly says that formations in this codex are marked with said symbol. Without this symbol you have absolutely no permission to call the aux choice a formation (in fact you have been told by inference it is not a formation).
So not only is it clearly not a formation but it clearly states that you would need to take a core choice to take an auxiliary choice...which would be a craftworld warhost.
You are correct. Unfortunately Crimson Death, Windrider Host, and Seer Council are legit formations, but I will make sure not to approve single Wraith Knights in the future. The 2nd place player actually had an Eldar CAD to get his wraith knight, and there was a player that used the Wraith Host, but taking a single detachments of 1 Wraith Knight are not legitimate, and that makes it a tiny bit better, and slightly less likely to pop up in every army.
So who else has tried the Skytyrant Swarm from the Shield of Baal: Leviathan book?
I ran it for the first time yesterday and I have to say it was really refreshing - my Hive Tyrant kitted for melee actually got to charge and kill things IN MELEE!
I was playing an AM army that consisted of 50-70 guardsmen (i didn't count), 2x2 basilisks, and a wyvern. I was able to get first turn and due to night fight/shrouded (malanthropes are awesome) along with model placement, the wyvern only killed 5 gargoyles, and i lost 5 or 6 more to the rest of his shelling which is to say incredible. Failed a turn 2 charge due to rolling snake eyes (Never again! next run i'll def take AG on all the models in the SK swarm) but nonetheless turns 3-5 the skytyrant was ripping up stuff with his reaper of obliterax and pincer tail.
In test rolling (not real games yet) I've also found the reaper of obliterax and skytyrant formation able to take on an Eldar Wraithknight about 65% of the time. More reliably if the WK has been wounded first. The reaper causes instant death (so D3 wounds on a GC) on a 6, and has shred so chances of rolling 2 or more 6's are pretty good. The gargoyles' blinding venom wounds on a 6+ and isn't as great as reaper, since it's ap-, but it's still able to hurt the guy. I'll be trying it out in real play sometime soon i think, but we only have one eldar player in our group and he doesn't yet have a WK in his collection.
Back to yesterday's game, between the skytyrant and my 2 standard flyrants, and biovores and zoanthropes, i was able to take his army out chunks at a time. He conceded on the top of turn 5 with only a fleeing guardsman, depleted CCS, 1 basilisk and the wyvern remaining (with my tyrants bearing down on both the artillery pieces).
I'll definitely be running skytyrant again. I loved it.
In the chapter regarding Competitive Eldar Builds in my Tyranids vs Eldar Tactica (p. 319), I mentioned about Eldar leadership shenanigans. I did make a mistake there. The LD-Bomb list isn't with Dark Eldar allies. It's actually with Harlequin allies. Here is a sample list, contributed by felixcat:
Eldar with Harlequin Allies: You will also see the new Eldar teaming up with the new Harlequins as a competitive build. This type of list usually revolves around 2 builds - the Eldar/Harlie LD-Bomb or the Eldar/Harlie Harlistar deathstar build. In either case, both types of lists will take advantage of stackable, Leadership-reducing abilities as part of their offensive repertoire.
Now you make one of your Troupe Masters and in maelstrom just try for the +2/-2 random game length. This alone can be game breaking. You have Windriders for ObSec. What are we doing here? Well, if you really want to attack LD the Death Jesters ‘Death Is Not Enough’ is darn capable. A lot of units will be taking that -2 LD morale test as Jesters will get some casualties. And the Jesters fit into the Starweavers ( capacity 6). When the Hemlocks come we stack their -2 LD 12” bubble with the Jesters and units will be running off the edges of the table. Finally we have a Lvl 2 Mask of Secrets psyker. This guy will do buffs and also reduce LD. Remember you get to pick the direction the effected units flee if they take Jester casualties. The Masque detachment does have ‘Rising Crescendo’ - run and charge. But really we will charge only after we weaken squads. Those that do not run off the table we can finish off. Did I mention this list has a slew of S6 shots - 80+ a turn. So even Flyrants can be hurt. -felixcat
tetrisphreak wrote: So who else has tried the Skytyrant Swarm from the Shield of Baal: Leviathan book?
I ran it for the first time yesterday and I have to say it was really refreshing - my Hive Tyrant kitted for melee actually got to charge and kill things IN MELEE!
I was playing an AM army that consisted of 50-70 guardsmen (i didn't count), 2x2 basilisks, and a wyvern. I was able to get first turn and due to night fight/shrouded (malanthropes are awesome) along with model placement, the wyvern only killed 5 gargoyles, and i lost 5 or 6 more to the rest of his shelling which is to say incredible. Failed a turn 2 charge due to rolling snake eyes (Never again! next run i'll def take AG on all the models in the SK swarm) but nonetheless turns 3-5 the skytyrant was ripping up stuff with his reaper of obliterax and pincer tail.
In test rolling (not real games yet) I've also found the reaper of obliterax and skytyrant formation able to take on an Eldar Wraithknight about 65% of the time. More reliably if the WK has been wounded first. The reaper causes instant death (so D3 wounds on a GC) on a 6, and has shred so chances of rolling 2 or more 6's are pretty good. The gargoyles' blinding venom wounds on a 6+ and isn't as great as reaper, since it's ap-, but it's still able to hurt the guy. I'll be trying it out in real play sometime soon i think, but we only have one eldar player in our group and he doesn't yet have a WK in his collection.
Back to yesterday's game, between the skytyrant and my 2 standard flyrants, and biovores and zoanthropes, i was able to take his army out chunks at a time. He conceded on the top of turn 5 with only a fleeing guardsman, depleted CCS, 1 basilisk and the wyvern remaining (with my tyrants bearing down on both the artillery pieces).
I'll definitely be running skytyrant again. I loved it.
Yeah for many years I ran a "Winged Assassin" and a Dakka'rant. It fills me with joy to actually use my Assassin again. I can't call it the best thing Ever, but I like it quite a bit.
jy2 wrote: That really depends on how the TO inteprets it. In the case of the TO (tournament organizer) that tag8833 mentioned, obviously, he intrepreted each Auxiliary unit in the Warhost detachment as a separate formation (even if it is a formation of 1 unit).
In the ITC format, they interpret it as formations and auxiliary dataslates. They have a restriction of 0-1 on any formations (thus, cannot take more than 1 seer council in the ITC format) but no restrictions on auxiliary dataslate units (i.e. you can up to 12 wraithlords if you want).
In short, I think you are both right, but it's best to check with the TO of the event as to how he's going to rule it for his tournament.
jy2 there really isn't any room for interpretation in this case. If you read the Forces of the Craftworlds section you will see that this is actually disallowed in 2 ways;
1) The auxiliary choices require you take take a core choice. The aux choices also have a single skull symbol to indicate them as such.
2) Formations have a triple skull symbol. It clearly says that formations in this codex are marked with said symbol. Without this symbol you have absolutely no permission to call the aux choice a formation (in fact you have been told by inference it is not a formation).
So not only is it clearly not a formation but it clearly states that you would need to take a core choice to take an auxiliary choice...which would be a craftworld warhost.
Ok. Agreed. That is how they do it in the ITC format anyways.
tetrisphreak wrote: So who else has tried the Skytyrant Swarm from the Shield of Baal: Leviathan book?
I ran it for the first time yesterday and I have to say it was really refreshing - my Hive Tyrant kitted for melee actually got to charge and kill things IN MELEE!
I was playing an AM army that consisted of 50-70 guardsmen (i didn't count), 2x2 basilisks, and a wyvern. I was able to get first turn and due to night fight/shrouded (malanthropes are awesome) along with model placement, the wyvern only killed 5 gargoyles, and i lost 5 or 6 more to the rest of his shelling which is to say incredible. Failed a turn 2 charge due to rolling snake eyes (Never again! next run i'll def take AG on all the models in the SK swarm) but nonetheless turns 3-5 the skytyrant was ripping up stuff with his reaper of obliterax and pincer tail.
In test rolling (not real games yet) I've also found the reaper of obliterax and skytyrant formation able to take on an Eldar Wraithknight about 65% of the time. More reliably if the WK has been wounded first. The reaper causes instant death (so D3 wounds on a GC) on a 6, and has shred so chances of rolling 2 or more 6's are pretty good. The gargoyles' blinding venom wounds on a 6+ and isn't as great as reaper, since it's ap-, but it's still able to hurt the guy. I'll be trying it out in real play sometime soon i think, but we only have one eldar player in our group and he doesn't yet have a WK in his collection.
Back to yesterday's game, between the skytyrant and my 2 standard flyrants, and biovores and zoanthropes, i was able to take his army out chunks at a time. He conceded on the top of turn 5 with only a fleeing guardsman, depleted CCS, 1 basilisk and the wyvern remaining (with my tyrants bearing down on both the artillery pieces).
I'll definitely be running skytyrant again. I loved it.
The Skytyrant formation is fun. It used to have 2 bad matchups - Tau and Eldar. But now with Eldar losing its cover-ignoring long-term capability, there is mainly just 1 headache matchup - Tau.
BTW, take egrubs on your Flyrant. Just in case you get charged by a walker or Imperial Knight.
All this talk of Skytyrant has got me thinking. Obviously it'd be nice to give the whole swarm Fleet with AG, but at a 30 Garg swarm that's costing you 75 points, which is pretty damn hefty since it already costs 450pts or so depending how you run the flyrant. Would it be at all viable to stick AG on only 20/30 of the gargoyles, since they're technically two separate broods so you can upgrade them differently? If your opponent shoots 10 off then he gives the remainder fleet. Then again, that only actually saves you 20 points, so maybe it isn't particularly worth it.
Benlisted wrote: All this talk of Skytyrant has got me thinking. Obviously it'd be nice to give the whole swarm Fleet with AG, but at a 30 Garg swarm that's costing you 75 points, which is pretty damn hefty since it already costs 450pts or so depending how you run the flyrant. Would it be at all viable to stick AG on only 20/30 of the gargoyles, since they're technically two separate broods so you can upgrade them differently? If your opponent shoots 10 off then he gives the remainder fleet. Then again, that only actually saves you 20 points, so maybe it isn't particularly worth it.
Forget it. It isn't worth it. I'd rather use that 75-pts to buy another 12 gargoyles instead.
Benlisted wrote: All this talk of Skytyrant has got me thinking. Obviously it'd be nice to give the whole swarm Fleet with AG, but at a 30 Garg swarm that's costing you 75 points, which is pretty damn hefty since it already costs 450pts or so depending how you run the flyrant. Would it be at all viable to stick AG on only 20/30 of the gargoyles, since they're technically two separate broods so you can upgrade them differently? If your opponent shoots 10 off then he gives the remainder fleet. Then again, that only actually saves you 20 points, so maybe it isn't particularly worth it.
Jy2 I finally got to read through the entire article. It is a fantastic resource for any nid looking to take some craftworlders down a peg or two.
Some things that might be beneficial to point out.
1) CWE has lost a significant amount of board control in ITC events. If they only take 1 wraithknight a CWE army will really struggle to stay near midfield objectives where they can end up in assault. Look at the example competitive lists provided. There is only 2 units in the entire lot that want anything to do with melee (seer council and wraithknight). The only other units that are even okay in an assault are wraithguard though they are easy to tarpit and grind down, though with wraithscythes you will need a cheap unit to sacrifice to the wall of death.
This may not seem as important in a thought experiment but it becomes extremely important in a maelstorm objectives type game as the CWE player will have to choose between getting a point from jumping onto an objective with the scatbike unit only to be assaulted by you or to not get the point and let you pull forward. This problem is exacerbated as compared to the previous CWE serpent spam + 3 wraithknights by the fact that scatbikes cannot carry small sacrificial dire avenger units inside them to be used to block charges. This also becomes even more drastic because winning an assault by even a single point gives the scatbikes a 50% chance of breaking.
I am not advising people to try killing CWE in melee but I am saying that if you play to objectives assaults assaults will happen and this is one of the edges that could win a game.
2) Many CWE units firepower is reduced with every unsaved wound. This is different than serpent spam of yore and most imperial units where the real damage comes from 2-3 special weapon models. Most CWE units have the same gun on every model. This means every single model removed reduces the firepower output of the unit in a linear fashion. So killing 2 scatbikes of a 5 scatbike unit reduces the units firepower from 20 shots to 12 shots. Thus, aside from the purposes of removing a scoring unit, killing 10 scatbikes from 5 units is essentially the same as killing 2 units of 5 scatbikes, except there is a benefit to killing 25% of a scatbike unit. This factor helps to make chipping away with small amount of anti infantry firepower useful against CWE. Things like Psychic Scream or multi charges can be a real concern for armies that spam scatbikes. They will fill up so much of their deployment area that you are likely to catch 3-4 units with these and if you do you will make them pay in a big way.
3) The new CWE has a weird dichotomy. The "backbone" of their army the scatbikes has essentially the worse morale in the army. If you can get 25% casualties on a unit it has a 28% chance to fail morale. This may seem low but remember that 1-2(1 for units of 3 and 2 for units of 6) MEQ have not exactly been difficult to kill. This can make for an interesting strategy for turn 1-2 shooting priorities as I am finding it is better to just kill 25% of each scatbike unit I target and then use the rest of my shooting to do the same to the rest of the scatbikes. What this does is reduces the return fire to about 50% of what it would otherwise have been (this is essentially 1/3 failure rate combined with a more efficient firepower to kill return as I am not over killing units). This reduction of the alpha or beta strike can put me on a up on the attrition cycle letting me grind the CWE player to a wraithknight alone rather than me getting ground down instead.
The weakness to this strategy of distributed kills is that you end up with a bunch of weakened 2-3 model units of scatbikes that are still excellent scoring. However consider these points;
a) there is essentially 0 chance you would have wiped the opponents scatbike units all out turn 1. This same firepower needed to kill 25% of each units would leave 75%+ of the scatbike units alive, at full strength, and not having to snap fire from failed morale checks.
b) Subsequent turns the small scatbikes will have to get closer to score objectives. This will give more opportunities to use small arms fire to kill 1 bike here or there. If you have already reduced a unit of 6 scatbikes down to 4 then killing 1 bike will cause more morale checks. Thus you have set yourself up to gain more benefits for less resources down the line.
c) if you face the 30+ scatbike list with this strategy some of the scatbike units are likely to flee off the table as packing that many bikes into a deployment zone is going to leave them looking like sardines in a tin. This is a ~4 times multiplication of the effects of that units shooting, that is massive.
Sorry for all the ramblings on scatbikes. I did just look at a lot of stats on them.
Also don't forget to vector strike the crimson hunter formation. Shooting them can be rough due to vector dance and the rerollable jink saves but the vector strike ignore cover and have a good chance to pen. Against the crimson hunter formation all you really need is to neuter their firepower as unlike nids flyrants the crimson hunters cannot score or contribute anything other than their shooting.
For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.
ansacs wrote: Jy2 I finally got to read through the entire article. It is a fantastic resource for any nid looking to take some craftworlders down a peg or two.
Some things that might be beneficial to point out.
1) CWE has lost a significant amount of board control in ITC events. If they only take 1 wraithknight a CWE army will really struggle to stay near midfield objectives where they can end up in assault. Look at the example competitive lists provided. There is only 2 units in the entire lot that want anything to do with melee (seer council and wraithknight). The only other units that are even okay in an assault are wraithguard though they are easy to tarpit and grind down, though with wraithscythes you will need a cheap unit to sacrifice to the wall of death.
This may not seem as important in a thought experiment but it becomes extremely important in a maelstorm objectives type game as the CWE player will have to choose between getting a point from jumping onto an objective with the scatbike unit only to be assaulted by you or to not get the point and let you pull forward. This problem is exacerbated as compared to the previous CWE serpent spam + 3 wraithknights by the fact that scatbikes cannot carry small sacrificial dire avenger units inside them to be used to block charges. This also becomes even more drastic because winning an assault by even a single point gives the scatbikes a 50% chance of breaking.
I am not advising people to try killing CWE in melee but I am saying that if you play to objectives assaults assaults will happen and this is one of the edges that could win a game.
2) Many CWE units firepower is reduced with every unsaved wound. This is different than serpent spam of yore and most imperial units where the real damage comes from 2-3 special weapon models. Most CWE units have the same gun on every model. This means every single model removed reduces the firepower output of the unit in a linear fashion. So killing 2 scatbikes of a 5 scatbike unit reduces the units firepower from 20 shots to 12 shots. Thus, aside from the purposes of removing a scoring unit, killing 10 scatbikes from 5 units is essentially the same as killing 2 units of 5 scatbikes, except there is a benefit to killing 25% of a scatbike unit. This factor helps to make chipping away with small amount of anti infantry firepower useful against CWE. Things like Psychic Scream or multi charges can be a real concern for armies that spam scatbikes. They will fill up so much of their deployment area that you are likely to catch 3-4 units with these and if you do you will make them pay in a big way.
3) The new CWE has a weird dichotomy. The "backbone" of their army the scatbikes has essentially the worse morale in the army. If you can get 25% casualties on a unit it has a 28% chance to fail morale. This may seem low but remember that 1-2(1 for units of 3 and 2 for units of 6) MEQ have not exactly been difficult to kill. This can make for an interesting strategy for turn 1-2 shooting priorities as I am finding it is better to just kill 25% of each scatbike unit I target and then use the rest of my shooting to do the same to the rest of the scatbikes. What this does is reduces the return fire to about 50% of what it would otherwise have been (this is essentially 1/3 failure rate combined with a more efficient firepower to kill return as I am not over killing units). This reduction of the alpha or beta strike can put me on a up on the attrition cycle letting me grind the CWE player to a wraithknight alone rather than me getting ground down instead.
The weakness to this strategy of distributed kills is that you end up with a bunch of weakened 2-3 model units of scatbikes that are still excellent scoring. However consider these points;
a) there is essentially 0 chance you would have wiped the opponents scatbike units all out turn 1. This same firepower needed to kill 25% of each units would leave 75%+ of the scatbike units alive, at full strength, and not having to snap fire from failed morale checks.
b) Subsequent turns the small scatbikes will have to get closer to score objectives. This will give more opportunities to use small arms fire to kill 1 bike here or there. If you have already reduced a unit of 6 scatbikes down to 4 then killing 1 bike will cause more morale checks. Thus you have set yourself up to gain more benefits for less resources down the line.
c) if you face the 30+ scatbike list with this strategy some of the scatbike units are likely to flee off the table as packing that many bikes into a deployment zone is going to leave them looking like sardines in a tin. This is a ~4 times multiplication of the effects of that units shooting, that is massive.
Sorry for all the ramblings on scatbikes. I did just look at a lot of stats on them.
Also don't forget to vector strike the crimson hunter formation. Shooting them can be rough due to vector dance and the rerollable jink saves but the vector strike ignore cover and have a good chance to pen. Against the crimson hunter formation all you really need is to neuter their firepower as unlike nids flyrants the crimson hunters cannot score or contribute anything other than their shooting.
For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.
We might get something by combining the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood -1 Leadership bubble with heavy firepower targeting their bikes then?
ansacs wrote: Jy2 I finally got to read through the entire article. It is a fantastic resource for any nid looking to take some craftworlders down a peg or two.
Some things that might be beneficial to point out.
Spoiler:
1) CWE has lost a significant amount of board control in ITC events. If they only take 1 wraithknight a CWE army will really struggle to stay near midfield objectives where they can end up in assault. Look at the example competitive lists provided. There is only 2 units in the entire lot that want anything to do with melee (seer council and wraithknight). The only other units that are even okay in an assault are wraithguard though they are easy to tarpit and grind down, though with wraithscythes you will need a cheap unit to sacrifice to the wall of death.
This may not seem as important in a thought experiment but it becomes extremely important in a maelstorm objectives type game as the CWE player will have to choose between getting a point from jumping onto an objective with the scatbike unit only to be assaulted by you or to not get the point and let you pull forward. This problem is exacerbated as compared to the previous CWE serpent spam + 3 wraithknights by the fact that scatbikes cannot carry small sacrificial dire avenger units inside them to be used to block charges. This also becomes even more drastic because winning an assault by even a single point gives the scatbikes a 50% chance of breaking.
I am not advising people to try killing CWE in melee but I am saying that if you play to objectives assaults assaults will happen and this is one of the edges that could win a game.
2) Many CWE units firepower is reduced with every unsaved wound. This is different than serpent spam of yore and most imperial units where the real damage comes from 2-3 special weapon models. Most CWE units have the same gun on every model. This means every single model removed reduces the firepower output of the unit in a linear fashion. So killing 2 scatbikes of a 5 scatbike unit reduces the units firepower from 20 shots to 12 shots. Thus, aside from the purposes of removing a scoring unit, killing 10 scatbikes from 5 units is essentially the same as killing 2 units of 5 scatbikes, except there is a benefit to killing 25% of a scatbike unit. This factor helps to make chipping away with small amount of anti infantry firepower useful against CWE. Things like Psychic Scream or multi charges can be a real concern for armies that spam scatbikes. They will fill up so much of their deployment area that you are likely to catch 3-4 units with these and if you do you will make them pay in a big way.
3) The new CWE has a weird dichotomy. The "backbone" of their army the scatbikes has essentially the worse morale in the army. If you can get 25% casualties on a unit it has a 28% chance to fail morale. This may seem low but remember that 1-2(1 for units of 3 and 2 for units of 6) MEQ have not exactly been difficult to kill. This can make for an interesting strategy for turn 1-2 shooting priorities as I am finding it is better to just kill 25% of each scatbike unit I target and then use the rest of my shooting to do the same to the rest of the scatbikes. What this does is reduces the return fire to about 50% of what it would otherwise have been (this is essentially 1/3 failure rate combined with a more efficient firepower to kill return as I am not over killing units). This reduction of the alpha or beta strike can put me on a up on the attrition cycle letting me grind the CWE player to a wraithknight alone rather than me getting ground down instead.
The weakness to this strategy of distributed kills is that you end up with a bunch of weakened 2-3 model units of scatbikes that are still excellent scoring. However consider these points;
a) there is essentially 0 chance you would have wiped the opponents scatbike units all out turn 1. This same firepower needed to kill 25% of each units would leave 75%+ of the scatbike units alive, at full strength, and not having to snap fire from failed morale checks.
b) Subsequent turns the small scatbikes will have to get closer to score objectives. This will give more opportunities to use small arms fire to kill 1 bike here or there. If you have already reduced a unit of 6 scatbikes down to 4 then killing 1 bike will cause more morale checks. Thus you have set yourself up to gain more benefits for less resources down the line.
c) if you face the 30+ scatbike list with this strategy some of the scatbike units are likely to flee off the table as packing that many bikes into a deployment zone is going to leave them looking like sardines in a tin. This is a ~4 times multiplication of the effects of that units shooting, that is massive.
Sorry for all the ramblings on scatbikes. I did just look at a lot of stats on them.
Also don't forget to vector strike the crimson hunter formation. Shooting them can be rough due to vector dance and the rerollable jink saves but the vector strike ignore cover and have a good chance to pen. Against the crimson hunter formation all you really need is to neuter their firepower as unlike nids flyrants the crimson hunters cannot score or contribute anything other than their shooting.
For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.
Thanks for sharing. I will try to incorporate some of you ideas into my tactica at a future date. I will also respond to some of these points tomorrow.
But for now, I've got a battle report to share.....Tyranids vs Eldar!
Ok, so I finally got in a game with Tyranids vs Eldar. Only I was the one playing Eldar. My opponent? None other than the man, the myth, the StarCraft legend himself, Mr. Geoff "iNcontrol" Robinson and was Barbed Hierodule tournament Tyranids. Geoff is a really good Tyranid player, winning Best Tyranids at the BAO 2014 (I took Best Tyranids at the BAO 2013 and was runner-up to Geoff in 2014). Geoff also took the award for Best Tyranid player in the ITC 2014, and he is one of a very, very small group of people whom I actually have a losing record against.
He brought his 1850 tournament list:
iNcontrol's Tyranids:
Leviathan:
Flyrant - Egrubs
Flyrant - Egrubs
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
CAD:
Flyrant - Egrubs, Fighter Ace
Swarmlord
Malanthrope
3x Rippers - Deepstrike
3x Rippers - Deepstrike
Barbed Hierodule
Jy2's Eldar:
While my opponent brought his proven, tournament Tyranid list, I only brought a generalist Eldar list. It isn't a fully optimized list, but it is still pretty good. I was running this list mainly to get a feel of how the Eldar army works, and I mainly used models that I currently own (with only 1 proxy, the D-scythe Wraithguards).
3. The nerf to D...Destroyer shots can only do 2W at most. The D-scythes only wound on a 3+ and they do D2 wounds (instead of D3).
4. Other than a lucky '6' on the D-charts, Eldar will have problems against 2+ Shrouded cover.
5. The Barbed Hierodule with 2+ cover and 12 S10 shots has a better chance to take out my Wraithknight than vice versa. I really don't have an answer for his GMC.
6. Geoff actually got some very good Psychic powers with 4 Catalysts, 2 Paroxysms, 1 Psychic Scream, 1 Warp Blast and 1 Onslaught. I have weak psychic defense with no psykers in my army.
7. We are playing the Scouring. Eldar has got 3 Fast Attacks. Tyranids have none.
8. Although Tyranids are going 1st, they do have Master of Ambush and so will be getting the alpha-strike.
9. We played with plenty of ruins in this game. Basically, his flyrants will never have to jink as they should almost always be in terrain.
10. In the Maelstrom Secondary, there are 3 VP sub-missions. These will be very hard for my army to take because they consist of FMC's, a Gargantuan and units with 2+ cover.
Eldar:
Top 10 Reasons Why Eldar Will Win.
1. I am more familiar with Tyranids than Geoff is with the new Eldar.
2. Eldar is going 2nd, meaning they will have the last say on objectives.
3. Mobility. No one can take objectives quite like the Eldar. Their bikes can zoom from 48" away onto an objective.
4. In the Maelstrom Secondary, there are 3 Objectives sub-missions. With Eldar going 2nd and ObSec bikers, I should be able to grab these every turn, that is, if I don't mind sacrificing my scoring units next turn.
5. Hammer & Anvil deployment. One of the worst deployment types for Tyranids and one of the best for Eldar.
6. One of the best ways to deal with Eldar is by running MSU. Well, Geoff is doing quite the opposite of that, with 1 big "deathstar" unit (his Barbie) and a bunch of flyers. He's only got 2 units of rippers to grab those objectives. Once I take them out, Geoff's ability to grab the objectives will become really hard.
7. D-weapons. Even though the D has been nerfed, it is still really dangerous, especially from my D-scythe Wraithguards. You know what they say....a D a day keeps the big bugs away. Of course, this is assuming my WG wave serpent doesn't get popped out in the middle of nowhere.
8. Target priority. Let's see if Geoff gets his Target Priority correct. Before the game, I was going on about how good the Warp Spiders and the D-scythe WG's were. I also stressed how my Crimson Hunter Exarch was my best weapon against his flyrants and how I have 3 Fast Attack units in my list. Let's see if he goes after those units or my ObSec jetbike troops. If he leaves my jetbikes alone, then I have a chance. If he goes after them early, then he will neutralize my mobility advantage and I will be in trouble.
9. His flyrants will have to eventually land. And when they do, I will take them out....assuming I still have any offense left.
10. Sorry, I barely made it to 9. I don't have a 10.
So what do you think of the matchup? Who will win? Who is favored? We played ITC mission #4, with Scouring as the Primary and Modified Maelstrom as the Secondary. I had 3 Fast Attacks (Crimson Hunter, Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders). Geoff had none. Also, I opted to go 2nd, even though Geoff had Master of Ambush for his Warlord flyrant (meaning he was going to infiltrate all 3 flyrants and his Barbed Hierodule and he is going 1st).
Also, we were playing with the ITC nerf to D. On the Destroyer Table, 2-5 = D2 Wounds/Hull Points and 6 = 2 Wounds/HP's with no saves of any kind. Also, the Destroyer shots do not count as S10 for the purposes of Instant Death.
This will be a text-only battle report, as I didn't bring my camera to take any pictures.
Primary: The Scouring (worth 4-pts)
Secondary: Modified Maelstrom (roll for 2 each turn, worth 4-pts):
1. Hold Objective #1.
2. Hold Objective #2.
3. Hold Objective #3.
4. Kill an enemy unit.
5. Kill an enemy unit.
6. Kill an enemy unit.
Tertiaries: Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord, Big Game Hunter (Kill the most expensive enemy unit)
My Big Game Hunter (BGH) unit is the Wraithknight. Geoff's is his Barbed Hierodule.
Deployment: Hammer & Anvil
First Turn: Tyranids (I win the roll and opted to go 2nd)
No Night-fight.
We both get Master of Ambush for our Warlord traits.
Geoff gets some really good psychic powers - 4 Catalysts, 2 Paroxysms, 1 Onslaught, 1 Psychic Scream and 1 Warp Blast.
Terrain consists of 1 large ruins in the middle, surrounded by 6 terrain pieces - 2 smaller ruins, 2 BLOS hills and 2 BLOS ruins. Overall, there was plenty of ruins for all the MC's in the game.
I win the roll to go first but opt to go second instead.
Geoff deploys everything but the mucolids. He deploys Swarmy and the Malanthrope as far forwards as possible. He deploys the 2 rippers in the back in ruins on both of the objectives. He then infiltrates his 3 flyrants and the Barbed Hierodule about 18" from my units.
I deploy only 2 units. Talk about gutsy. I deploy my WK on an objective and in ruins (18" away from where he would later infiltrate his flyrant and Barbed Hierodule). I then deploy my D-artillery (the Vaul's Wrath Support Battery) behind the BLOS hill in my deployment zone.
I then reserve the rest of my army. WG's, Dark Reapers and 2 units of jetbikes with my Warlord Autarch will be outflanking (due to Master of Ambush). Scorpions and Hawks will deepstrike and 1 unit of jetbikes will be coming in on my board edge (along with my flyer). That's right, I'm going with a null-deployment strategy against Geoff's Tyranids thanks to the +/-1 I get on Reserves with my Autarch. I just hope that I don't get tabled before then. Gulp!
Maelstrom - His 2 Maelstrom objectives are the ones that his 2 rippers are on. My 2 Maelstrom objectives are the ones that my 2 units are on.
Movement - Malanthrope and Swarmlord advances into the central ruins. Barbie moves back slightly 1) to get out of my WK's charge range and 2) to get within the Malanthrope's bubble. 2 flyrants move towards my artillery. 1 flyrant move towards my WK but stays in ruins.
Psychic - Tyranids get off all of their powers except Paroxysm on my WK (which I manage to deny). Flyrant Psychic Screams at my artillery. I fail the Psychic Scream test and lose 1 guy and the artillery piece. The last guy then fails morale again and runs off the table. You will see this trend in the game.
Shooting - 2 flyrants have no target. The other flyrant shoots at my WK and does no wounds. Barbie then shoots at my WK and causes 2 unsaved wounds.
Eldar 1:
Spoiler:
My turn is very short. I go straight to the shooting phase since my WK is already on a Maelstrom objective. Due to 2+ shrouded cover, my shooting does no damage.
Maelstrom - Geoff scores 2 Maelstrom points for claiming 2 of his objectives with his rippers. I get 1 for having my WK on an objective.
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 1, Tyranids: 2
Tyranids 2:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom - We both get 1 objective and 1 kill-a-unit for our Maelstrom objectives.
Movement - 2 mucolids come in (deepstriking near the 2-pt objective). All 3 flyrants fly off the table. He moves the Malanthrope, Swarmy and Barbie towards the center of the table (to get away from the threat range of my outflanking D-Scythe Wraithguards).
Shooting - Barbed Hierodule does 6W to my Wraithknight. I then fail 4 out of 6 4+ cover saves. However, I then make 3 out of 4 5+ FNP saves.
Tyranids fail to kill a unit, but they do have their rippers on their Maelstrom objective.
Eldar 2:
Spoiler:
Movement - I use my Autarch to give +1 to my Reserves. Everything comes in except for my Autarch and his unit of bikers and the Crimson Hunter Exarch. I deepstrike the hawks into my opponent's deployment zone to go after the rippers on an objective. Scorpions come in on the opposite flank of the hawks (but still within range of the rippers and objective in my opponent's Deployment zone). Spiders come in mid-board and behind a BLOS hill to go after either Barbie or the malanthrope. Scatterbikes come in around my deployment zone (I get 1 Skyfire Nexus on my 1-pt objective). I make sure that the bikes are out of flyrant threat range when they come back in next turn. Finally, wave serpents (with WG's and Dark Reapers) come in mid-board as well. Geoff does a good job of keeping his TMC's/GMC out of my D-scythe threat range and so I leave my WG's (and Dark Reapers) in their transports this turn.
Shooting - Between my Swooping Hawks, 1 serpent shield and the scatterbikes, I manage to erase both units of rippers, thus denying my opponent of his Maelstrom objective. The rest of my shooting - Warp Spiders, WK and scatterbikes - fail to do any damage to his TMC's with 2+ cover, though I do manage to take out 1 mucolid as well. Geoff gets a little revenge on me as he fails 4 2+ saves on his malanthrope but then makes 4 5+ FNP saves on him instead. WG wave serpent then moves flat-out towards Barbie and his friends.
Assault - While making my assault moves for my bikers, I lose 1 bike to dangerous terrain. They then fail the Morale and fall back.
Maelstrom - My opponent fails to achieve either of his Maelstrom objectives this turn. He fails to kill a unit and then I erase his unit on his Maelstrom objective. I, on the other hand, get both of mine. However, since Geoff did 3W to my Gargantuan Lord of War, he gets +1VP, which in the ITC missions counts towards the Secondary Maelstrom objectives.
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 3, Tyranids: 3
Tyranids 3:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom - Geoff gets Kill-1-unit and 1 objective Maelstrom objectives. I get 2 objectives.
Movement - Flyrants come back in. They go after my hawks and spiders. Last mucolid comes in as well. Barbie moves away from my WG's in wave serpent and towards my Warp Spiders. Geoff has just made it impossible for my Warp Spiders to get away. If they jump out of range of the flyrants, they will be in LOS and potential charge range of Barbie. Lastly, Swarmy will sacrifice himself by moving in the way of my WG's (if order to try to save Barbie).
Psychic - I cannot stop any of his psychic powers. Swarmy paroxyses my WK. Flyrant Psychic Shrieks my warp spiders and I lose 1 (again, another failed LD). Catalyst goes off on almost his entire army.
Shooting - Flyrant fires at the Swooping Hawks. Despite going-to-ground in ruins for the 3+, I lose the entire squad of 6 due to crappy saves. 2 flyrants shoot at my Warp Spiders. Statistically, I should lose 6 spiders (3 from each flyrant). Again, I roll poorly on their saves and lose the entire unit. Lastly, Barbie shoots at my WK. This time he does only 5W and between 4+ cover and 5+ FNP, I only lose 1W. Anyways, Geoff gets +2VP to the Primary for killing 2 of my Fast Attack units.
Assault - Geoff makes a mistake here and forgets to assault my WG wave serpent with the Swarmlord. Or maybe he didn't want to assault it because that would then pull him out of Malanthrope range and I still have my Crimson Hunter and WK shooting next turn. Hmmm.... Finally, mucolid assault and kill 2 of my Striking Scorpions.
Eldar 3:
Spoiler:
Movement - Warlord's unit and Crimson Hunter both come in. This turn I go after his Warlord flyrant. Dark Reapers disembark. Crimson Hunter and bikes (with 1 unit of bikes on the Skyfire objective) aim for his flyrant. My fleeing bikers regroup. I make sure to cover both of my Maelstrom objectives as well. Lastly, WG's disembark after their serpent advances 6". I am actually in range of Barbie, however, I opt to go after Swarmy instead. Why? Because Swarmy is in range of the Malanthrope, and I can actually BBQ them both.
Shooting - I make a mistake here. I fire the Crimson Hunter into his Warlord, and then I find out he is also within 6" of the Malanthrope! Needless to say, with 2+ cover (in ruins), his Warlord doesn't lose a single wound. I then fire with my WG's. They barbeque Swarmy. However, when I roll to wound against his Malanthrope, I roll a 1, 2, 1, 2, 3 for a total of only 1W. I need to redirect my firepower against his Malanthrope and Geoff rolls well for his saves. None of my shots get past his 2+ cover, though I do manage to do another 1W to it from the WG's Wave Serpent cover-ignoring serpent shields. In short, my Shooting phase was just horrible.
Assault - Bikers do their jump moves (except for the unit that just regrouped).
Maelstrom - Despite Geoff's really good turn and my really bad one, I outscore Geoff again in the Maelstrom objectives. I get both of mine (with several different units) and Geoff only manages to get 1 of his (kill-a-unit).
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 5, Tyranids: 4
Tyranids 4:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom - We both get 1 objective and 1 kill-a-unit for our Maelstrom objectives.
Movement - Geoff keeps his flyrants on the table in preparation for Turn 5. 1 flyrant goes after the Crimson Hunter. Another goes after my Dark Reapers. The last one goes after the Wraithguards. All will be in position to jump onto objectives next turn. Barbie continues to retreat away from my WG's.
Psychic - Scream claims another kill - 1 Dark Reaper model (yet another failed LD test). I believe he only gets 1 Catalyst off this turn.
Shooting - Flyrant finishes off my reapers. 2nd flyrant fails to down my Crimson Hunter, managing to take off 2HP's and forcing me to jink. 3rd flyrant manages to shoot down 3 WG's (average would have been 2 WG's dead only). Barbie shoots at my WK with 2W remaining in an attempt to take him out (for the extra +1VP to the Maelstrom Secondary). Once again, I roll well for my WK and he only takes 1W of damage (1W remaining). Only my WK has been rolling well. The rest of my army hasn't.
Eldar 4:
Spoiler:
Movement - I fly my flyer off the table. I then position my bikes to shoot at either a flyrant or the Malanthrope. WK moves towards the Skyfire Nexus. This may be risky because he will be out in the open, but I take the gamble anyways. Scorpions are still alive but continue to hide in the ruins by Objective #3 in my opponent's deployment zone. I move the DR's Wave Serpent into my opponent's deployment zone as well (I've not got 3 units there - scorpions, Wave Serpent and my Warlord's unit). Lastly, my 2 remaining WG's go after the Malanthrope.
Shooting - It takes my entire army just to kill the Malanthrope with 2W left! First of all, the WG's fire but only 1 of the D-scythes do any damage (and it only does 1W). I then fire all 3 bikers at the Malanthrope. That's 32 S6 shots and 2 S5 shots (from my Autarch) and he makes EVERY SINGLE 2+ SAVES! So I am forced to fire the WK at him. At first I wanted to run my WK to the Skyfire objective (and cover as well), but now, he's going to be out in the open. Instead, he shoots....and my opponent finally fails a 2+ cover save! The Malanthrope finally goes down!
Maelstrom - Once again, I get both of mine, killing 1 enemy unit (his Malanthrope) and with one of my units on an objective. And once again, Geoff only gets 1 of his. He kills one of my units (Dark Reapers) but has no one within reach of his objective (and he didn't want to land his flyrants just yet).
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 7, Tyranids: 5
Tyranids 5:
Spoiler:
Maelstrom - Geoff gets 1 objective and 1 kill-a-unit for his Maelstrom objectives. I need to kill 2 units.
Geoff re-evaluates his chances of possibly winning at the end of this turn. I've got 3 units (actually 4 as I could split off my Warlord from his unit) in his deployment zone for Linebreaker and to cover his 2 objectives. I've got 1 wave serpent and the WG's to cover the 2 mid-field objectives (both worth 2-pts). I've got my WK in my deployment zone to cover my objective. HOWEVER, I've also got 2 units of bikers hiding in my deployment zone waiting to zip onto objectives on my next turn. So he decides that he can't take the Primary from me.
With the Secondary, I will have a hard time taking out any of his units - 3 flyrants and Barbie, almost all at full strength or just 1W on them. He could potentially win Maelstrom if he can achieve both of his Maelstrom objectives and if he kills my WK, which would give him a bonus +1VP.
So if I take Primary and he takes Secondary, the difference will be in the Tertiaries. He needs for 2 things to happen - he needs to deny me Linebreaker and he needs to kill my Warlord. It's a long shot, but it's his only chance of winning this turn. However, what he really needs is for the game to go on another turn as the chances for him to pull it all off is very slim indeed.
Movement - Warlord flyrant lands onto his Objective #3 (behind and in his BLOS ruins terrain). I have 3 scorpions there contesting but he should be able to shoot them off. Another flyrant goes after my Warlord and his unit (he stays in the air). Barbie goes after my contesting Wave Serpent. His last flyrant swoops into the central ruins. It is no use for him to go after my WG's because I've got both my WG's and their Wave Serpent on Objective #2 in the central ruins, so it will probably go after the WK as insurance.
Psychic - Scream doesn't go off and only 1 Catalyst goes off.
Shooting - Ok, for Geoff to pull this off, almost everything has to go perfectly for him. First of all, his Warlord shoots at my scorpions. I am clutch with their saves as I pass 8 out of 10 saves and only lose 2 (Exarch survives). HOWEVER, my Exarch then fails his Morale and falls back off of the 3-pt objective. Doh!
Next, his other flyrant shoots at my Warlord's unit. He kills only 1 biker and put 1W on my Warlord (slightly below-average, average would have been 3 Wounds).
So now he's got a decision to make. Should Barbie fire at my WK and Wave Serpent or should he fire at my Warlord's unit and Wave Serpent? Geoff decides to go after my Warlord's unit and so split-fires between the unit and the Wave Serpent. He manages to glance my serpent once and also kills off both windrider bikers. However, my Warlord survives! I then roll for Morale and roll , ! Warlord falls back off of the 1-pt objective.
Lastly, he goes for a hail mary and fires his last flyrant at my WK....to no effect. My WK survives.
Assault - Finally, we have assault. Barbie charges and wrecks the Wave Serpent.
Currently, Geoff has both of his Maelstrom objectives (Warlord on Objective #3 and he kills 2 of my units). If I don't achieve either of my Maelstrom objectives, then we will tie the Secondary. It I get even 1, then I will take the Secondary (and assuming the game ends).
Eldar 5:
Spoiler:
Movement - Crimson Hunter comes in and goes after the mid-field flyrant. I move my bikers towards the objectives. WK jumps onto the Skyfire 1-pt objective. Autarch regroups and nabs me Linebreaker. Scorpion Exarch is a lost cause and continues to run away.
Shooting - Crimson Hunter does 2W to his flyrant. My WK then goes clutch when he hits the wounded flyrant twice and rolls , on the Destroyer table to take it out. My bikes don't even have to shoot. Instead, they just turbo onto the 2-pt and 3-pt Scouring objectives.
Maelstrom - Geoff gets both of his objectives this turn (Warlord flyrant on Objective #3 and kills several of my units). I actually manage to get one of my kill objectives
Maelstrom VP's - Eldar: 8, Tyranids: 7
In the Primary, I have the 1-pt (WK), both 2-pts (jetbikes, WG and Wave Serpent) and the 3-pt objective (jetbikes) for a total of 8-pts for the Scouring. Geoff only gets 1 3-pt objective (his Warlord flyrant) and 2 Fast Attack pts (Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks) for a total of 5-pts. I would take the Primary. I also would take the Secondary as well. Lastly, I would get Linebreaker (my Warlord).
That is....if the game ends. If not, then I just may be in trouble as all of my units are exposed.
I roll to see if the game continues and.....
Tyranids 6:
Spoiler:
....the roll is a . Game over!
Eldar takes Primary, Secondary and Linebreaker for a 9-0 win.
So how did Eldar win? Despite Geoff being a very experienced Tyranid player, getting alpha-struck by his bugs (Master of Ambush and Tyranids going 1st), my bad rolling, my horrible Leadership tests, my lack of anti-air against FMC's and having trouble against Tyranids in 2+ cover, how was I able to win?
Target Priority. Geoff's target priority actually wasn't bad. However, he did not go after the units that are the most dangerous in my army - my ObSec Windrider scatterbikes. Sure, the units he went after were offensive threats. Some of them even gave up bonus points. However, the scatterbikes are the only true double-threat in the army. They are both an offensive threat as well as a threat to objectives anywhere on the table. I rank them in my tactica as the highest priority threats and yet, they were the very unit that my opponent chose to ignore basically the entire game.
Army Build. This is no fault of my opponent as he brought his standard Take-All-Comer's list, but his army build really suffers against mine. It just isn't a very good Maelstrom army. In my tactica, running MSU (multiple-small-units) will give you the best chances of going up against the new Eldar. Geoff's army was the complete opposite. The Barbed Hierodule is more like a deathstar unit in that it is a huge points-investment into 1 single unit. Other than him and some very expensive MC's, my opponent really didn't have many units to grab the Maelstrom objectives. Flyrants are not that great in Maelstrom scenarios because you really don't want to land them if you can help it. If you want to run multiple flyrants, you need to complement them with a better ground force that can hold multiple objectives in Maelstrom scenarios. Geoff's list just isn't as suitable for Maelstrom scenarios as a more MSU Tyranid list is. But despite that, Geoff was still able to keep it close, which is a testament to his skill and experience.
Wraithguards. Wraithguards were actually huge this game and helped to push my opponent's army back. With them, I was able to deny my opponent the 2 2-pt objectives in the middle as I forced him to sacrifice his Swarmlord and to keep his Barbed Hierodule back. Without them, Geoff probably would have advanced Barbie into my deployment zone for Linebreaker and my 3-pt objective.
Eldar truly is a very forgiving army. This may be the real secret as to why the new Eldar are so good. In this game, everything went against me. I gave my opponent the alpha-strike. I wasn't rolling well for the most part. My offense was basically stagnant and I struggled to kill any of his units. I had no answer to 2+ cover other than my Wraithguards and I couldn't stop him from having his way with me in the Psychic phase. My Leadership tests were just atrocious. I gave up 3 bonus VP's (2 Fast Attack VP's, 1VP for my WK). Sure, I played a very smart game and with very, very few mistakes, but it is the power of the codex itself (how good and super-efficient the units are) that makes the new space elves still such a threat in spite of all of these adverse conditions. You get a general who knows what he is doing and the new Eldar just becomes a powerhouse, despite him running a non-optimized Eldar army and with everything going against him. I can totally see why Reece was willing to wager $250 of his money to anyone who can beat his Eldar. They really are that good and despite a lot of mistakes Reece has made in his games with them, they are really a forgiving army as well.
Next time, I'm going to have to play as Tyranids against another Eldar player. Thanks for reading!
ansacs wrote: Jy2 I finally got to read through the entire article. It is a fantastic resource for any nid looking to take some craftworlders down a peg or two.
Some things that might be beneficial to point out.
1) CWE has lost a significant amount of board control in ITC events. If they only take 1 wraithknight a CWE army will really struggle to stay near midfield objectives where they can end up in assault. Look at the example competitive lists provided. There is only 2 units in the entire lot that want anything to do with melee (seer council and wraithknight). The only other units that are even okay in an assault are wraithguard though they are easy to tarpit and grind down, though with wraithscythes you will need a cheap unit to sacrifice to the wall of death.
This may not seem as important in a thought experiment but it becomes extremely important in a maelstorm objectives type game as the CWE player will have to choose between getting a point from jumping onto an objective with the scatbike unit only to be assaulted by you or to not get the point and let you pull forward. This problem is exacerbated as compared to the previous CWE serpent spam + 3 wraithknights by the fact that scatbikes cannot carry small sacrificial dire avenger units inside them to be used to block charges. This also becomes even more drastic because winning an assault by even a single point gives the scatbikes a 50% chance of breaking.
I am not advising people to try killing CWE in melee but I am saying that if you play to objectives assaults assaults will happen and this is one of the edges that could win a game.
2) Many CWE units firepower is reduced with every unsaved wound. This is different than serpent spam of yore and most imperial units where the real damage comes from 2-3 special weapon models. Most CWE units have the same gun on every model. This means every single model removed reduces the firepower output of the unit in a linear fashion. So killing 2 scatbikes of a 5 scatbike unit reduces the units firepower from 20 shots to 12 shots. Thus, aside from the purposes of removing a scoring unit, killing 10 scatbikes from 5 units is essentially the same as killing 2 units of 5 scatbikes, except there is a benefit to killing 25% of a scatbike unit. This factor helps to make chipping away with small amount of anti infantry firepower useful against CWE. Things like Psychic Scream or multi charges can be a real concern for armies that spam scatbikes. They will fill up so much of their deployment area that you are likely to catch 3-4 units with these and if you do you will make them pay in a big way.
3) The new CWE has a weird dichotomy. The "backbone" of their army the scatbikes has essentially the worse morale in the army. If you can get 25% casualties on a unit it has a 28% chance to fail morale. This may seem low but remember that 1-2(1 for units of 3 and 2 for units of 6) MEQ have not exactly been difficult to kill. This can make for an interesting strategy for turn 1-2 shooting priorities as I am finding it is better to just kill 25% of each scatbike unit I target and then use the rest of my shooting to do the same to the rest of the scatbikes. What this does is reduces the return fire to about 50% of what it would otherwise have been (this is essentially 1/3 failure rate combined with a more efficient firepower to kill return as I am not over killing units). This reduction of the alpha or beta strike can put me on a up on the attrition cycle letting me grind the CWE player to a wraithknight alone rather than me getting ground down instead.
The weakness to this strategy of distributed kills is that you end up with a bunch of weakened 2-3 model units of scatbikes that are still excellent scoring. However consider these points;
a) there is essentially 0 chance you would have wiped the opponents scatbike units all out turn 1. This same firepower needed to kill 25% of each units would leave 75%+ of the scatbike units alive, at full strength, and not having to snap fire from failed morale checks.
b) Subsequent turns the small scatbikes will have to get closer to score objectives. This will give more opportunities to use small arms fire to kill 1 bike here or there. If you have already reduced a unit of 6 scatbikes down to 4 then killing 1 bike will cause more morale checks. Thus you have set yourself up to gain more benefits for less resources down the line.
c) if you face the 30+ scatbike list with this strategy some of the scatbike units are likely to flee off the table as packing that many bikes into a deployment zone is going to leave them looking like sardines in a tin. This is a ~4 times multiplication of the effects of that units shooting, that is massive.
Sorry for all the ramblings on scatbikes. I did just look at a lot of stats on them.
Also don't forget to vector strike the crimson hunter formation. Shooting them can be rough due to vector dance and the rerollable jink saves but the vector strike ignore cover and have a good chance to pen. Against the crimson hunter formation all you really need is to neuter their firepower as unlike nids flyrants the crimson hunters cannot score or contribute anything other than their shooting.
For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.
Thank you for posting this. Your analysis on how to deal with "scatbikes" is some of the most constructive advice I have seen sense CWE hit the streets. I will keep this strategy in mind for when I next play against CWE.
I agree with ansacs scatbike analysis after playing a few games against the new book. There's also the psychological aspect of the "death by 1000 cuts" strategy... it's much easier and feels much less daunting when I'm faced with loads of scatbikes to just tell myself "Ok, only 1 guy needs to die from that squad... 1 from this squad..." rather than "kill them all!" I've also found that getting the bike squads to fail their morale checks isn't too bad. If I can force 3-4 checks in a phase I have a decent shot at one of them failing.
That being said, I use a Tyranid list that would get me laughed off the internet if I posted it in here so it's all relative I guess.
Jy2 looks like an interesting game. I wonder how many times Jeff has played against the new CWE? I could see a major experience gap due to your familiarity with his army which the CWE have completely changed since last codex. Either way should be a good game.
Xyptc wrote:We might get something by combining the Deathleaper's Assassin Brood -1 Leadership bubble with heavy firepower targeting their bikes then?
If you can get things to align this could be brutal. Actually the overall value of Ld based tactics has been going up as more top tier codexes are starting to see non vehicle units and units without fearless/ATSKNF as major parts of competitive lists (Skitarii and CWE, being the most recent additions). I would be careful of basing an entire strategy around something with so many failure points though. Make sure you have a back up strategy if you get seized on and they kill your brood or turbo boost away. (neither of which are necessarily a failure of the strategy as if you put them in good cover the opponent will have wasted a lot of alpha strike either way).
LordRogalDorn wrote:Thank you for posting this. Your analysis on how to deal with "scatbikes" is some of the most constructive advice I have seen sense CWE hit the streets. I will keep this strategy in mind for when I next play against CWE.
Thanks. Ironically when I saw the new scatbike units my first thought when looking at each bike may take a heavy was...wow, they are finally making troops function as more than tax and bodies on an objective, cool! My second thought was, wow those are undercosted ny ~5 pts per model but at least they aren't toxic for the game like waveserpent. I am happy that the serpent was at least replaced with scatbikes. Scatbikes there are strategic considerations to combating them, ie they have morale, cover saves matter, alpha strikes are effective, they cannot shoot from the corner edges of the board, the interact in assault, all guns work on them, etc. Serpents didn't play half of the game of 40K while scatbikes may be hyper efficient they still play the same game as everyone else. This is why I ended up breaking down the exact strategies and maths behind the scatbikes, it is actually a very interesting unit now from a strategic/mathematical perspective.
Cirronimbus wrote:I agree with ansacs scatbike analysis after playing a few games against the new book. There's also the psychological aspect of the "death by 1000 cuts" strategy... it's much easier and feels much less daunting when I'm faced with loads of scatbikes to just tell myself "Ok, only 1 guy needs to die from that squad... 1 from this squad..." rather than "kill them all!" I've also found that getting the bike squads to fail their morale checks isn't too bad. If I can force 3-4 checks in a phase I have a decent shot at one of them failing.
That being said, I use a Tyranid list that would get me laughed off the internet if I posted it in here so it's all relative I guess.
That is a lot of the reason I bothered to write up a rather long math and tactics thread as if you consider the sheer RAW firepower of a scatbike alpha strike it is absolutely daunting. However once you account for them in your pre game/set up strategies and break the problem down it becomes vastly more manageable.
BTW I wouldn't laugh. There are a huge number of lists that have significant chances of victory against most of the top lists, you just never hear about them as they usually have a hard time winning 7-9 games in a row.
I am doing a 750pts doubles tournament (for a total of 1500 points for each side) with a random teammate tomorrow. I am very anxious of what to bring, because I know there is going to be some experienced players there. Normally I would go for triple Flyrants triple Mucolids, but I am limited to only one flyer. The missions is four of the Eternal War missions.
I have gone through a couple of potentional lists, but because I lack the necessary models for some of them, including Tervigons, Carnifexes and Dimachareons, I have decided to go with something like this:
Just a little foreshadowing, but in my game against iNcontrol (Eldar vs Tyranids), my Leadership almost killed me! I've never failed so many LD tests before. I failed 3 Psychic Scream tests. Then my scatterbikes failed 1 LD test because they stepped onto dangerous terrain, killing 1 guy. Finally, I failed 2 crucial LD tests on Turn 4 with my guys on objectives - my Striking Scorpion on 1 objective and my Warlord Autarch on another! Wow!
Anyways, report coming out later (probably tomorrow as I need to watch the Golden State Warriors playoff game tonight). For now, I will leave you with my Pre-game Analysis.
Pre-Game Analysis:
Tyranids:
Top 10 Reasons Why Tyranids Will Win.
1. Geoff is a highly experienced Tyranid player.
2. I have very weak anti-air.
3. The nerf to D...Destroyer shots can only do 2W at most. The D-scythes only wound on a 3+ and they do D2 wounds (instead of D3).
4. Other than a lucky '6' on the D-charts, Eldar will have problems against 2+ Shrouded cover.
5. The Barbed Hierodule with 2+ cover and 12 S10 shots has a better chance to take out my Wraithknight than vice versa. I really don't have an answer for his GMC.
6. Geoff actually got some very good Psychic powers with 4 Catalysts, 2 Paroxysms, 1 Psychic Scream, 1 Warp Blast and 1 Onslaught. I have weak psychic defense with no psykers in my army.
7. We are playing the Scouring. Eldar has got 3 Fast Attacks. Tyranids have none.
8. Although Tyranids are going 1st, they do have Master of Ambush and so will be getting the alpha-strike.
9. We played with plenty of ruins in this game. Basically, his flyrants will never have to jink as they should almost always be in terrain.
10. In the Maelstrom Secondary, there are 3 VP sub-missions. These will be very hard for my army to take because they consist of FMC's, a Gargantuan and units with 2+ cover.
Eldar:
Top 10 Reasons Why Eldar Will Win.
1. I am more familiar with Tyranids than Geoff is with the new Eldar.
2. Eldar is going 2nd, meaning they will have the last say on objectives.
3. Mobility. No one can take objectives quite like the Eldar. Their bikes can zoom from 48" away onto an objective.
4. In the Maelstrom Secondary, there are 3 Objectives sub-missions. With Eldar going 2nd and ObSec bikers, I should be able to grab these every turn, that is, if I don't mind sacrificing my scoring units next turn.
5. Hammer & Anvil deployment. One of the worst deployment types for Tyranids and one of the best for Eldar.
6. One of the best ways to deal with Eldar is by running MSU. Well, Geoff is doing quite the opposite of that, with 1 big "deathstar" unit (his Barbie) and a bunch of flyers. He's only got 2 units of rippers to grab those objectives. Once I take them out, Geoff's ability to grab the objectives will become really hard.
7. D-weapons. Even though the D has been nerfed, it is still really dangerous, especially from my D-scythe Wraithguards. You know what they say....a D a day keeps the big bugs away. Of course, this is assuming my WG wave serpent doesn't get popped out in the middle of nowhere.
8. Target priority. Let's see if Geoff gets his Target Priority correct. Before the game, I was going on about how good the Warp Spiders and the D-scythe WG's were. I also stressed how my Crimson Hunter Exarch was my best weapon against his flyrants and how I have 3 Fast Attack units in my list. Let's see if he goes after those units or my ObSec jetbike troops. If he leaves my jetbikes alone, then I have a chance. If he goes after them early, then he will neutralize my mobility advantage and I will be in trouble.
9. His flyrants will have to eventually land. And when they do, I will take them out....assuming I still have any offense left.
10. Sorry, I barely made it to 9. I don't have a 10.
Using deathstorm unit, I want to try it out because I think made more than half of tyranids unit gain 2+ cover save is good survive..
With regards to your list, honestly, I don't think the Phodia units are very good. But I applaud you for trying to run a themed list.
Your best best will probably be to infiltrate your 2 units of stealers (into ruins if you can or out of LOS from your opponent). Make sure that they are out of Synapse range initially. This way, if they get shot at, they can go-to-ground. Then on your turn, move your flyrant to within Synapse range of them and they will be able to act normally again.
Flyrant will harass the enemy. The bulk of your army should be constantly advancing. Use your gants as a screening unit if you have to but make sure to trail them back to venomthrope range.
Callylove wrote: I am doing a 750pts doubles tournament (for a total of 1500 points for each side) with a random teammate tomorrow. I am very anxious of what to bring, because I know there is going to be some experienced players there. Normally I would go for triple Flyrants triple Mucolids, but I am limited to only one flyer. The missions is four of the Eternal War missions.
I have gone through a couple of potentional lists, but because I lack the necessary models for some of them, including Tervigons, Carnifexes and Dimachareons, I have decided to go with something like this:
Does anyone have some thoughts about any changes I should do? Is the list crap or do you think it can give my opponents some trouble?
Thanks!
I'd drop the zoanthrope for more troops. You already have the malanthrope and he is pretty durable for a Synapse creature. Instead, swap out the zoanthrope + mucolid for more Tyranid ObSec troops. Play to the objectives. While your opponent is busy trying to shoot down your TMC's, your gribblies will go grab the objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: 10) Eldar will roll hot and Tyranids will roll badly, rendering the previous 19 points moot.
Should be an interesting read all the same.
Actually, I don't roll hot this game and my opponent doesn't roll badly. My saves were a mix of good and bad (so average overall). However, my LD tests were just bad as I failed the majority of the LD tests I had to take.
But it will be an interesting read and will show some insight as to how the new Eldar army works, which is why I am posting this here.
ansacs wrote: Jy2 I finally got to read through the entire article. It is a fantastic resource for any nid looking to take some craftworlders down a peg or two.
Some things that might be beneficial to point out.
Spoiler:
1) CWE has lost a significant amount of board control in ITC events. If they only take 1 wraithknight a CWE army will really struggle to stay near midfield objectives where they can end up in assault. Look at the example competitive lists provided. There is only 2 units in the entire lot that want anything to do with melee (seer council and wraithknight). The only other units that are even okay in an assault are wraithguard though they are easy to tarpit and grind down, though with wraithscythes you will need a cheap unit to sacrifice to the wall of death.
This may not seem as important in a thought experiment but it becomes extremely important in a maelstorm objectives type game as the CWE player will have to choose between getting a point from jumping onto an objective with the scatbike unit only to be assaulted by you or to not get the point and let you pull forward. This problem is exacerbated as compared to the previous CWE serpent spam + 3 wraithknights by the fact that scatbikes cannot carry small sacrificial dire avenger units inside them to be used to block charges. This also becomes even more drastic because winning an assault by even a single point gives the scatbikes a 50% chance of breaking.
I am not advising people to try killing CWE in melee but I am saying that if you play to objectives assaults assaults will happen and this is one of the edges that could win a game.
2) Many CWE units firepower is reduced with every unsaved wound. This is different than serpent spam of yore and most imperial units where the real damage comes from 2-3 special weapon models. Most CWE units have the same gun on every model. This means every single model removed reduces the firepower output of the unit in a linear fashion. So killing 2 scatbikes of a 5 scatbike unit reduces the units firepower from 20 shots to 12 shots. Thus, aside from the purposes of removing a scoring unit, killing 10 scatbikes from 5 units is essentially the same as killing 2 units of 5 scatbikes, except there is a benefit to killing 25% of a scatbike unit. This factor helps to make chipping away with small amount of anti infantry firepower useful against CWE. Things like Psychic Scream or multi charges can be a real concern for armies that spam scatbikes. They will fill up so much of their deployment area that you are likely to catch 3-4 units with these and if you do you will make them pay in a big way.
3) The new CWE has a weird dichotomy. The "backbone" of their army the scatbikes has essentially the worse morale in the army. If you can get 25% casualties on a unit it has a 28% chance to fail morale. This may seem low but remember that 1-2(1 for units of 3 and 2 for units of 6) MEQ have not exactly been difficult to kill. This can make for an interesting strategy for turn 1-2 shooting priorities as I am finding it is better to just kill 25% of each scatbike unit I target and then use the rest of my shooting to do the same to the rest of the scatbikes. What this does is reduces the return fire to about 50% of what it would otherwise have been (this is essentially 1/3 failure rate combined with a more efficient firepower to kill return as I am not over killing units). This reduction of the alpha or beta strike can put me on a up on the attrition cycle letting me grind the CWE player to a wraithknight alone rather than me getting ground down instead.
The weakness to this strategy of distributed kills is that you end up with a bunch of weakened 2-3 model units of scatbikes that are still excellent scoring. However consider these points;
a) there is essentially 0 chance you would have wiped the opponents scatbike units all out turn 1. This same firepower needed to kill 25% of each units would leave 75%+ of the scatbike units alive, at full strength, and not having to snap fire from failed morale checks.
b) Subsequent turns the small scatbikes will have to get closer to score objectives. This will give more opportunities to use small arms fire to kill 1 bike here or there. If you have already reduced a unit of 6 scatbikes down to 4 then killing 1 bike will cause more morale checks. Thus you have set yourself up to gain more benefits for less resources down the line.
c) if you face the 30+ scatbike list with this strategy some of the scatbike units are likely to flee off the table as packing that many bikes into a deployment zone is going to leave them looking like sardines in a tin. This is a ~4 times multiplication of the effects of that units shooting, that is massive.
Sorry for all the ramblings on scatbikes. I did just look at a lot of stats on them.
Also don't forget to vector strike the crimson hunter formation. Shooting them can be rough due to vector dance and the rerollable jink saves but the vector strike ignore cover and have a good chance to pen. Against the crimson hunter formation all you really need is to neuter their firepower as unlike nids flyrants the crimson hunters cannot score or contribute anything other than their shooting.
For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.
Thanks for your insight. Let me reply in kind to some of your points.
1) Yes, it's true that Eldar has lost some of the board control presence that they used to have with wave serpents. Scatbike troops are much more fragile than wave serpent transports with ObSec troops inside. And 1 WK, even though a LoW, cannot control the Movement phase as much as 3 normal WK's can. They can still get around this, however, with the WK and firepower. They've got the firepower to shoot down Tyranids from a safe distance and the WK still radiates a keep-away-from-me aura. Unless one is running a horde Tyranid army that can tarpit the WK (or spamming those dimachaerons or running Barbie backed by a malanthrope), Eldar with the WK is actually better than Tyranids in holding the middle because the WK is a threat to any TMC other than the dimas. Then there are the Seer Council and D-scythe Wraithguards, 2 excellent board control units if the Eldar player really want to clog up the middle.
Also, in my playtests, I'm finding MSU min-sized bike units to be better than bigger units. It's better to run 5 units of 3 scatterbikes than 3 units of 5 bikes. This allows the Eldar army much more flexibility. It also allows them to sacrifice 1 or 2 units to Maelstrom objectives with the score-&-then-die method (if they absolutely need to).
Finally, if the Eldar army is going up against an army with superior board control, they could spread out their objectives to counter any army that likes to bunch up their objectives.
In short, losing board control isn't as big a factor to Eldar as it is to many of the other armies. Eldar do have the units that can play the board control game, but even if they don't, the super-mobility of Eldar helps to compensate for their lack of board presence because they can get to any objective anywhere and at any time.
2) True again. The loss of even 1 single model reduces the firepower of the unit substantially (assuming each bike takes a special weapon). However, for their price, the Eldar can get a lot of threats at very low costs. Just look at a base of 6x3 scatterbikes. That is only 486-pts for 72 S6 shots a turn in 6 units (compared to 2 flyrants for 480-pts, you only get 24 TL-S6 shots). In a typical 1850 lists, that leaves you with 1364-pts for the rest of the army. The army is super-efficient in terms of the cost/firepower ratio. Eldar are the new "Necrons" (which IMO used to be the most efficient army). So while every model you kill hurts the Eldar warmachine, their potency remains still very high compared to many other armies just due to their sheer efficiency. This is just a rough estimate, but I'd say a typical 1000-pt Eldar army has as much firepower as a typical 1500-pt Marine army. If you take out 200-pts of Eldar, the 800-pts remaining will still have as much firepower as about a 1200-pt Marine army.
3) So is it better to finish off 1 unit of scatterbikes or to kill several models from each unit to force Morale? I'll use your example of killing either 10 bikes from 5 units of 5 bikes each or killing 2 whole units of 5 bikers each. I shall refer to this as "distributed killing" and "focused killing". In the short term, distributed killing may be better. With 28% chance to fail Morale, you kill 10 bikes and 1 will most likely break and fall back (and if you're lucky, maybe even fall off the table). Also, you might cause the bikes to jink, thus reducing their offensive potency even further. However, in the long term, I prefer focused killing. In distributed killing, you hurt all 5 units. Now I've got 4-5 units (depending on whether a unit breaks or not) that can still grab Maelstrom objectives. With focused killing, I've only got 3 to go grab Maelstrom objectives. Also, in the long term, if even 1 biker survives, he is a HUGE threat to the endgame objectives. Once you reduce a biker squad to 1-2 units, that unit is going to hide and wait (while shooting and still jumping behind BLOS terrain). If you're playing in an Objectives-based game and you don't have a very mobile army (with ObSec troops), IMO it is better to not let a single model from a biker unit survive. With distributed killing, you may disrupt the Eldar offense temporarily, but those surviving bikers will come back to bite you in the arse.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, I forgot to add....
4) Vector strike vs Crimson Hunters. While this is a viable strategy, the reality of it is that it is actually harder to do than you would think, especially when going up against an experienced Eldar opponent. Crimson Hunters out-range flyrants or almost any other Tyranid FMC. The prudent Eldar player will make sure to try to stay our of VS range of Tyranid FMC's (especially the hive crones) and still easily be in range to try to down them. Also, Vector Dancer allows them to perform maneuvers like getting behind the FMC, turning to shoot it and staying out of their flight paths of the FMC.
Vector Striking against an Eldar flyer is much like trying to cast an important psychic power in the presence of the Seer Council. You just can't rely on it as a tactic. You should look at it as a bonus instead. If the Eldar flyer is foolish enough to move into your flight path, then he is a target of opportunity. Just don't plan your tactics revolving how to best VS an Eldar flyer. Your flyrants should be going for other Eldar ground units or even trying to shoot down the flyer as its primary tactic.
How I have missed Dakka and this thread. After a reboot of life...new position at work, divorce and a couple moves it is time to get back into 40k like I was a few months ago.
Back to the roots...been playing bugs since 1994, anyone need 4 pounds of a pewter carnifex? I bring him to every game and threaten my opponent with him if they cheat...
Anyway. I have bee thinking about this as a core of my list.
Flyrant - TLDev x2 some eGrubs though I think a case can be made for shattershard with the eldar jetikes, just haven't done the math.
Flyrant - TLDev x2 some eGrubs
Malanthrope
Ripper base x3 with DS Ripper base x3 with DS
I have plenty of gaunts, magnetized carnifexes (4), plus the old pewter one...a mawloc, lots of gargoyles some lictors and more genestealers than should be allowed, a walking tyrant and another flyrant.
I am willing to spend a little bit of money. I have enough set aside for a couple of box sets or one big purchase.
I have been considering the lictor formation and or the Skyrant formation with the gargoyles. I am thinking MSU and honestly have thought about trying lots of 10 model gaunt squads with 5 devourers or even taking the spore formation.
Has anyone tried board control utilizing lots of small units of gaunts?
jy2 wrote:Thanks for your insight. Let me reply in kind to some of your points.
Thanks for the detailed response.
jy2 wrote:1) Yes, it's true that Eldar has lost some of the board control presence that they used to have with wave serpents. Scatbike troops are much more fragile than wave serpent transports with ObSec troops inside. And 1 WK, even though a LoW, cannot control the Movement phase as much as 3 normal WK's can. They can still get around this, however, with the WK and firepower. They've got the firepower to shoot down Tyranids from a safe distance and the WK still radiates a keep-away-from-me aura. Unless one is running a horde Tyranid army that can tarpit the WK (or spamming those dimachaerons or running Barbie backed by a malanthrope), Eldar with the WK is actually better than Tyranids in holding the middle because the WK is a threat to any TMC other than the dimas. Then there are the Seer Council and D-scythe Wraithguards, 2 excellent board control units if the Eldar player really want to clog up the middle.
I was more thinking of board control as focused around MSU moderate melee threats like a bunch of lictors, MSU drop pod marines, etc. Against bigger threats and even to some degree against hordes the new WK and wraithguard are a huge threat and will be difficult to handle. Against lots of medium melee threats the WK will struggle to effectively engage all the targets and the wraithguard can be charged by 2 units to tie them up or grind them down. I guess this stuck out in my mind due to my playing Khorne Daemonkin (Khorne Dogs), Renegades of Vraks (Spawn), and Imperial Fists (Drop Pod TACs). This is also part of the reason why I propose a distributed killing strategy for the first 1-2 turns as this reduces the firepower available. Yes this means you are more likely to loose the first 1-2 turns of maelstorm until you switch of focus killing but you will also have vastly more resources to win turns 3-5(or 6 and 7) which means you sacrifice 4 pts to win 6. Additionally if the opponent knows this is a possibility then they are more likely to reserve the windrider units in the future which will give you the first turns of maelstorm instead. This is similar to the trap spider and reserves strategies but rather than defending turns 1-2 you selectively kill your opponent.
jy2 wrote:Also, in my playtests, I'm finding MSU min-sized bike units to be better than bigger units. It's better to run 5 units of 3 scatterbikes than 3 units of 5 bikes. This allows the Eldar army much more flexibility. It also allows them to sacrifice 1 or 2 units to Maelstrom objectives with the score-&-then-die method (if they absolutely need to).
I completely agree. I have actually been posting in several threads that IMO the most powerful builds will be 4-6 units of 3 scatbikes. With the caveat a single unit of 5 scatbikes + 3 catbikes w/ warlock could make a good unit to stash your skyrunner farseer. Though again IMO the new seer council formation is incredibly powerful and I think will become a mainstay of competitive CWE.
jy2 wrote:Finally, if the Eldar army is going up against an army with superior board control, they could spread out their objectives to counter any army that likes to bunch up their objectives.
Very true. No matter what you are going to absolutely NEED mobility in your armies. I think this has been mostly true all 7ed but with CWE has become blatantly obvious (at least it will be after they beat it into their opponent).
jy2 wrote:In short, losing board control isn't as big a factor to Eldar as it is to many of the other armies. Eldar do have the units that can play the board control game, but even if they don't, the super-mobility of Eldar helps to compensate for their lack of board presence because they can get to any objective anywhere and at any time.
I agree that they don't actually have to "control" the board. CWE don't claim board space with their own units but with the lack of your units. However I do believe that board control will give you an edge in scoring as like you pointed out in your pre battle report often claiming an objective in the early game would cost a scatbike unit. This can either be true most of the game if you get an attrition cycle in your favor or cease to be true after 2-3 turns depending on how far the attrition cycle swings against you.
jy2 wrote:2) True again. The loss of even 1 single model reduces the firepower of the unit substantially (assuming each bike takes a special weapon). However, for their price, the Eldar can get a lot of threats at very low costs. Just look at a base of 6x3 scatterbikes. That is only 486-pts for 72 S6 shots a turn in 6 units (compared to 2 flyrants for 480-pts, you only get 24 TL-S6 shots). In a typical 1850 lists, that leaves you with 1364-pts for the rest of the army. The army is super-efficient in terms of the cost/firepower ratio. Eldar are the new "Necrons" (which IMO used to be the most efficient army). So while every model you kill hurts the Eldar warmachine, their potency remains still very high compared to many other armies just due to their sheer efficiency. This is just a rough estimate, but I'd say a typical 1000-pt Eldar army has as much firepower as a typical 1500-pt Marine army. If you take out 200-pts of Eldar, the 800-pts remaining will still have as much firepower as about a 1200-pt Marine army.
This is true against some target profiles but not against a number of others. Let's compare an Imperial Fist SM Drop Pod TAC squad (I love these units because nobody ever claims they are OP or broken but they are extremely solid in every aspect of the game).
T3 Sv5+ 5 SM w/ bolters [5.9 usw] vs 3 scatbikes [4.4 usw]
T3 2+ cover 5 SM w/ bolters [1 usw] vs 3 scatbikes [1.1 usw]
The real strength of the CWE is not exactly or perhaps not just their hyper efficient firepower. Their strength comes from 3 factors;
1) Hyper pts efficient firepower.
2) Being able to apply this firepower anywhere on the board from turn 1. It is much like how flyrant are actually fairly mediocre in terms of firepower efficiency being approximately the same cost per S6 hit as scout sentinels...however the flyrant usually gets within range of a good target while the scout sentinels struggle.
3) Ubiquity of targets for S6 shooting.
I would also like to point out that firepower efficiency is a weird metric because it actually changes depending on what you play against. If you play against a T4-6 Sv6 or worse without cover army the scatbikes are hyper efficient if you play against a T7-8 Sv3+ army then the grav gun white scar bikers are vastly more efficient.
jy2 wrote:3) So is it better to finish off 1 unit of scatterbikes or to kill several models from each unit to force Morale? I'll use your example of killing either 10 bikes from 5 units of 5 bikes each or killing 2 whole units of 5 bikers each. I shall refer to this as "distributed killing" and "focused killing". In the short term, distributed killing may be better. With 28% chance to fail Morale, you kill 10 bikes and 1 will most likely break and fall back (and if you're lucky, maybe even fall off the table). Also, you might cause the bikes to jink, thus reducing their offensive potency even further. However, in the long term, I prefer focused killing. In distributed killing, you hurt all 5 units. Now I've got 4-5 units (depending on whether a unit breaks or not) that can still grab Maelstrom objectives. With focused killing, I've only got 3 to go grab Maelstrom objectives. Also, in the long term, if even 1 biker survives, he is a HUGE threat to the endgame objectives. Once you reduce a biker squad to 1-2 units, that unit is going to hide and wait (while shooting and still jumping behind BLOS terrain). If you're playing in an Objectives-based game and you don't have a very mobile army (with ObSec troops), IMO it is better to not let a single model from a biker unit survive. With distributed killing, you may disrupt the Eldar offense temporarily, but those surviving bikers will come back to bite you in the arse.
My assertion is it is better to use a mixture of both depending on the situation. If you are going to spend the entire game flying or in 2+ cover then you can focus kill. If you don't think you can fulfill those two conditions then you should consider distributed killing for your turn 1 and perhaps turn 2. There won't be a significant difference in your opponent's ability to score maelstrom objectives as there will only be 2 of objectives to score turn 1. This means 2 units are needed, thus killing 2 of 5 units leaves 3, one more than the number of objectives. Additionally turn 1 there are essentially 2 types of objectives. 1) Distant objectives which you (nids) can easily reach and thus shoot up or assault the scatbikes and 2) close objectives which any CWE unit should be able to claim and nids will have trouble contesting turn 1. The situation turn 1 is such that 2 units of scatbikes is pretty much the same as 4 units of scatbikes as both players resources are still plentiful.
Thus my assertion is that distributed killing during turns 1-2 when the number of available units is at it's peak (thus the value of having more units is the least) can put you on a positive attrition cycle (where you kill more of your opponent's units than they kill of yours) thus putting you into a position where you can wipe out units turns 3-4.
jy2 wrote:4) Vector strike vs Crimson Hunters. While this is a viable strategy, the reality of it is that it is actually harder to do than you would think, especially when going up against an experienced Eldar opponent. Crimson Hunters out-range flyrants or almost any other Tyranid FMC. The prudent Eldar player will make sure to try to stay our of VS range of Tyranid FMC's (especially the hive crones) and still easily be in range to try to down them. Also, Vector Dancer allows them to perform maneuvers like getting behind the FMC, turning to shoot it and staying out of their flight paths of the FMC.
Vector Striking against an Eldar flyer is much like trying to cast an important psychic power in the presence of the Seer Council. You just can't rely on it as a tactic. You should look at it as a bonus instead. If the Eldar flyer is foolish enough to move into your flight path, then he is a target of opportunity. Just don't plan your tactics revolving how to best VS an Eldar flyer. Your flyrants should be going for other Eldar ground units or even trying to shoot down the flyer as its primary tactic.
Yeah, that wasn't meant to be a complete strategy. More along the lines of the typical crimson death vs flyrant is 2/3 crimson hunters come on board, shoots flyrant, this will average ~4 wounds if you don't jink (or have cover), you jink (assuming no big ruins), then fly off and vector strike the crimson hunter next turn. It is more something to keep in mind as it can give a small but significant boost to taking them down. You are correct though that unless the crimson hunter needs to angle for LoS they can use vector dancer to essentially "dance" outside your range or overfly you which would require flying off the board to fix the dog fight like situation.
For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.
For the wraithknight I agree that it is probably best to just mitigate it with MSU however keep in mind only 1 configuration has D attacks in assault. The other versions will struggle against nid GMC.
Doesn't it have stomp attacks?
Stomp doesn't cannot be used against GMC creatures. While MSU will leave the wraithknight struggling to catch and kill a bunch of small units (sure once it catches a unit it will kill it but let it do that to a bunch of lictors rather than a tervigon).
Callylove wrote: I am doing a 750pts doubles tournament (for a total of 1500 points for each side) with a random teammate tomorrow. I am very anxious of what to bring, because I know there is going to be some experienced players there. Normally I would go for triple Flyrants triple Mucolids, but I am limited to only one flyer. The missions is four of the Eternal War missions.
I have gone through a couple of potentional lists, but because I lack the necessary models for some of them, including Tervigons, Carnifexes and Dimachareons, I have decided to go with something like this:
Does anyone have some thoughts about any changes I should do? Is the list crap or do you think it can give my opponents some trouble?
Thanks!
Just a quick update to the ones who may be interested in how this tournament went.
We played doubles, and since we were only six players we had a singles table as well. We doubled the VPs from the singles table to keep up with the points from the doubles table for tie breaker. It was a weird tournament setup, but that’s how you need to do it sometimes when so few people show up.
I made a last minute change to the list and took out the Zoanthrope and Mucolid for another unit of Hormagaunts. My list looked like this:
I didn’t feel it was a very strong list, but I was hoping to have some fun and win a few games.
Game 1 with Imperial Guard vs. Eldar and Orks
We played kill points, they went first and there was no night fighting. Turn one the Eldar Farseer went for Psychic Shriek and succeeded with one die, I tried to deny it with eight dice but couldn’t, and he rolled a triple sixes for First Blood onto my Hormagaunts. In the shooting phase, he shot with his seven Scatter Bikes and some Shuriken Bikes and took down my Flyrant and Malanthrope and three wounds off of my Carnifex. My saves rolled horribly and I knew we were going to lose but we played it out for the victory points. My teammates Imperial Guard could obviously not stand against Nob Bikers as they ran through squads after squads.
Game 2 with Eldar vs. Eldar and Imperial Guard
Same Eldar opponent as before, but with my last teammate as his teammate. My teammate is a very good Necron player, but this time around he took his Eldar with him. We go first and prepare an alpha strike against our opponents.
Turn one we killed a few Windriders and some Guardsmen. Although we didn’t do too much damage we were feeling pretty safe, having a lot of meaningful targets in their face. My teammate flat out his Wave Serpent carrying Wraithguard and I brought my kind-of-deathstar up the field. Their turn they did a wound to my swooping Hive Tyrant with two Lascannon platforms and I failed my jink save. He took a wound from grouding check. Nothing else of note happened. Our turn two my teammate convinced me that charging my Flyrant into his Windriders with his warlord and challenging him was the play, although I was set on going into ongoing reserves. I consider it for some time but decide that he probably knows what he was talking about and charge. My Hormagaunts took the overwatch and he accepted the challenge. His two attacks hit and wounded, and I managed to fail both my armor saves. I did one wound back.
Their next turn they shot my Malanthrope (failed five out of seven armor saves) and Carnifex.
So we went from a convincing lead to a devastating loss.
Otherwise in the Spoiler below. I really love some feed back on these list to see if my thinking is in the right-ish direction .
Spoiler:
I all I have been reworking my list over the past month or so. With the changes to the ITC I have done some tweaking as well.
So I have 4 list that I have been working on. I lost a game to a guy in the area and he got to pick one of my unit for the next tournament. ??? He picked the Trygon Prime with the reaper artifact I recently finished for a local custom model contest. I love the model and don’t mind using him and he’s been effective in the list I have been running. He wasn't my first pick but I can work with him.
So the unit has to stay. I keep my word.
So the list have come up with are below. I’m open to ideas for the list. The first one is the one I think most people will like as it is all offence. The two middle ones are very alike in that they have a solid back field but with different striking abilities. The last, 4 option is closer to the first list with a screening unit included. I think it is more a TAC list.
The first list is a spam list with 3 Carnifex’s and 3 tyrants. The trygon get dropped behind the Carnifex’s in cover while the tyrants go after the biggest threats. As the Carnifex open things up the trygon has been very us as a counter attack unit allowing my Carnifex’s to get clear of combat and shoot more. Its work well. It is a Null style list so it is week at getting secondary point in the first turn for the ITC missions.
Here the list option 1
+++ Option 1(1850pts) +++
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Ripper Swarm Brood
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
+ Heavy Support +
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
List option 2
This list has a solid back field with large 29 man blob of hormagaunts with a 2+ cover save from the Malanthrope. This also allows me to leave my tyrants on the table if I wish to strike 1st turn. I like the Hormagaunts over the termagants as I feel the will do more damage to any unit that gets close for less points. I have had then whip out 6 man units of TWC with ease.
I have thought about dropping some hormagaunts to get a biovore or two just not sure if it is worth it.
The list:
+++ option 2 (1847pts) +++
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
Malanthrope Brood [Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
29x Hormagaunt [29x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
List option 3
This list drops a Carnifex and a drop spore for a Mawloc and a unit of Biovore. I left this list has more tools with the ap2 from the Mawloc. And is better VS Necrons and the new preference fore warrior blobs as it can put a large amount of wound on the unit and halves their saves. I think it would still put pressure on most armies. But if I miss with the Mawloc like I tend to and with the biovores. It is more of a gamble. It also doesn’t pack as big as a threat in the opponents back field when coming in.
The list:
+++ option 3 (1850pts) +++
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
Malanthrope Brood [Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
Hormagaunt Brood
30x Hormagaunt [30x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
2x Biovore
List Option 4:
While this list doesn’t have the pure offence of the first list, it still hits hard when it comes in. While giving an opponent a hard choice as what to kill off. With the hormagaunts, Carnifex’s and the trygon prime all saying hello you must pick what to kill before the next turn. The hormagaunts and the trygon have worked well together in killing thing, even WK. I been very happy with them. With the tyrants and everything coming in together in a Tyranid version of an alpha/ Bata strike I can normally kill everything in the zone I pick to come in within two turns. This list tends to do what the first does and be null deployment as much as possible.
+++ New Roster (1850pts) +++
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
Tyrannocyte [5x Deathspitters]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
20x Hormagaunt [20x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarm Brood
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
+ Heavy Support +
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
I'm actually thinking that the playing field is getting leveled. There are some very difficult match ups for Eldar, BTW. I watched a drop squad skitarii list (used flesh teafer allies) take Eldar apart early and the game before the Eldar could recover fully and control the game which had started. One more turn would have been bad for the skitarii but they got lucky and ebded turn five.
I also saw Tyranids beat decurion with orkinstar. Orekinstar beats a lot of builds but is bad against heavy flyer lists which the Nid list featured.
I think Eldar will be strong but I think that every list has its counter now and really that makes for an interesting meta.
Solid first round at Killadelphia, tabled my opponent. However there are some scary lists here, my low experience and midlevel list are in for a rough tourney.
Hey Jy2, Just read whole battle report... Enjoy it.
[Reader: Only read below once you have read Jy2 battle report.]
Spoiler:
Bah tyranids lose! This is Tyranids tactic and you play as elder!
But thank for teach us how elder behave. We will strike back!
I think Tyranids should replace his GMC for carnifexs. But lose that Str10 shots... Ermm. But 3d3 x hammer of wreaths is good against big unit. Take multiple twinlink brain leech carnifex and barb carnifex can wipe jetbike I guess.
Solidcrash wrote: Hey Jy2, Just read whole battle report... Enjoy it.
[Reader: Only read below once you have read Jy2 battle report.]
Spoiler:
Bah tyranids lose! This is Tyranids tactic and you play as elder!
But thank for teach us how elder behave. We will strike back!
I think Tyranids should replace his GMC for carnifexs. But lose that Str10 shots... Ermm. But 3d3 x hammer of wreaths is good against big unit. Take multiple twinlink brain leech carnifex and barb carnifex can wipe jetbike I guess.
Spoiler:
Haha....sorry about that. Our 2 Eldar players here have taken a sabbatical. Thus, no one to play Eldar here currently. Guess I have to be the bad guy. But whether I play as or against, I think that there is some insight to be gleened from the matchup.
Next time, maybe I will take my bugs down to SoCal and beat up on Reece and his Eldar.
Barbie isn't bad. He's actually quite good against a lot of armies and is the only unit who can truly threaten the Wraithknight. However, with him in the army, Tyranids will struggle in Maelstrom objectives against Eldar. On the flip side, if we were playing VP's for the Primary, it would have been Eldar who would have trouble against this type of Tyranid build.
It's a shame really because MSU is a great way to counter Eldar, yet Barbie is the best unit in the army to deal with a Wraithknight
Spoiler:
Yeah, he's a double-edged sword. He's great against some armies and against the WK as an individual unit. However, as a team, the Tyranid army with Barbie will suffer, especially with the Maelstrom objectives.
As far as board control, he really did a job against my WK, keeping my WK back and in my own deployment zone the entire game. Fortunately for me, I had the best weapon against Barbie, the D-scythe WG's, and I was able to keep him back with them as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NightWrench wrote: How I have missed Dakka and this thread. After a reboot of life...new position at work, divorce and a couple moves it is time to get back into 40k like I was a few months ago.
Back to the roots...been playing bugs since 1994, anyone need 4 pounds of a pewter carnifex? I bring him to every game and threaten my opponent with him if they cheat...
Anyway. I have bee thinking about this as a core of my list.
Flyrant - TLDev x2 some eGrubs though I think a case can be made for shattershard with the eldar jetikes, just haven't done the math.
Flyrant - TLDev x2 some eGrubs
Malanthrope
Ripper base x3 with DS Ripper base x3 with DS
I have plenty of gaunts, magnetized carnifexes (4), plus the old pewter one...a mawloc, lots of gargoyles some lictors and more genestealers than should be allowed, a walking tyrant and another flyrant.
I am willing to spend a little bit of money. I have enough set aside for a couple of box sets or one big purchase.
I have been considering the lictor formation and or the Skyrant formation with the gargoyles. I am thinking MSU and honestly have thought about trying lots of 10 model gaunt squads with 5 devourers or even taking the spore formation.
Has anyone tried board control utilizing lots of small units of gaunts?
Your core is solid.
I like playing MSU Tyranids. MSU and null-deployment. You have the units necessary to run a competitive Tyranid list - carnifexes, mawloc, gargoyles, lictors and another flyrant. Currently, flyrant-spam is one of our most competitive builds. Competitively, I would recommmend at least 3 dakka flyrants at 1850. In tournament play, it's not uncommon at all to see 3-4 flyrants.
The lictor formation is decent, though after running it, I wish I had a little more offense in my army. Personally, I don't think you will need more than 3-4 lictors at most.
Skytyrant is a good formation and with the nerf to Eldar serpent shields, it's gotten a little better. It is definitely worthy of consideration in your list. Just watch out for walkers and especially the Imperial Knights.
I don't think lots of MSU gants is a really good build. They suffer from 3 main weaknesses - 1) they rely on a network of Synapse to function properly, 2) they lack mobility (consider running 1 or 2 trygons for the trygon hole(s) if you want to spam MSU gants) and 3) they are offensively challenged. However, if you are thinking MSU gants, consider the Endless Swarm formation along with 2-3 trygons in your army. I think that is one of the better ways to run a gant-farm.
I have a question as to how the Tyranocite and Sporecyst's guns work.
Monsterous creatures have a 360 line of sight, so do all 5 of its guns fire at the nearest unit? Even though some of the guns will technically be pointing in a different direction.
Just got home from the Alamo GT. I ran the following:
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
mucolid
mucolid
mucolid
rippers
rippers w/deep strike
dakka fex in a pod
t-fex in a pod
venomthrope
I played against:
Game 1 Clan Raakun
Game 2 Tervigon Nids
Game 3 Quadflyrant (almost a mirror match)
Game 4 Grey Knights/Imp Knight
Game 5 Grey Knights
So matchmaking was a bit skewed to say the least.
Game 1 I squirreled a bit with my target selection and got outscored big time, lost 19-1
Game 2 I failed 4 armor saves/fnps first round of shooting. Made a comeback, and tied 10-10
Game 3.........well shize. 4 Flyrants, mucolids, lictor, and 3 mawlocs. He got first turn, I didn't seize. He took 2 flyrants down to 1 wound with great rolling. Then I periled a full wound Flyrant. After that it went steadily downhill lost 19-1
Day 2
Game 4 was some redemption. Imp Knight, Dreadknight, 5 man Termie squad, paladin blob with draigo and stern. I went second, only the imp knight on the board. All 5 flyrants go for him. Boom, down to 3 HPs. 2nd turn his dreadknight comes in nearby the knight. My dakkafex danger close drops next to his dreadknight and hits spot on! I start off by encircling the imp knight. Warp lance him in the side, he fails his invul, I pen, and get the d3 HP...roll.........3! Ok, so what are 5 flyrants, a dakka-fex, and a pod to do? Pop a dreadknight that is. Had to wheel around, flew past the blob and popped draigo ;-) Finally came back around and 1 warp lance, t-fex template, and 36 dev shots later his termies are gone. Win for me 19-1
Game 5...Another Grey Knight guy?!? Oh well...3 Dreadknights, 2 Storm Ravens, strike squad and a draigo blob. I roll 4 warp blast powers ;-) I go first, he doesn't seize. I paroxysm a dreadknight down to 1 BS/WS...then warp lance/dev shot the other dreadknight off the board. Storm ravens come on. Takes all 5 flyrants to pop one...ugh. After that though, pop the other raven, t-fex mishaps and he places him in the corner. I kill a few termies and wipe his strike squad that was obj camping, he concedes. win 19-1
So I finished 2 wins, 2 loses, and 1 draw. Not too shabby for my first GT I suppose? Still need to get better target priority going on, and maelstrom will always hurt this list. Might drop the t-fex as he was relatively unremarkable. Thoughts on that? I might mess around with him and run this list a few more times before making changes. Nut yeah, flyrants are still boss, and facing another flyrant list just gets funny/dumb/sad/1st turn wins...lol
If you guys have any questions let me know and I'll answer as best as I can remember, bit tired right now.
dan2026 wrote: I have a question as to how the Tyranocite and Sporecyst's guns work.
Monsterous creatures have a 360 line of sight, so do all 5 of its guns fire at the nearest unit? Even though some of the guns will technically be pointing in a different direction.
dan2026 wrote: I have a question as to how the Tyranocite and Sporecyst's guns work.
Monsterous creatures have a 360 line of sight, so do all 5 of its guns fire at the nearest unit? Even though some of the guns will technically be pointing in a different direction.
dan2026 wrote: I have a question as to how the Tyranocite and Sporecyst's guns work.
Monsterous creatures have a 360 line of sight, so do all 5 of its guns fire at the nearest unit? Even though some of the guns will technically be pointing in a different direction.
I am also curious here.
RAW is very simple. If there is only 1 unit that is closest to all the guns, then all 5 guns will fire at that unit. If there are 2 units in close proximity, with 1 unit being closest to 2 guns and the other unit closest to 3 guns, then the t-cyte will splitfire at those 2 targets with the respective guns. With true RAW, it has a 360 fire arc since it is a MC.
However, Adepticon and the ITC (and any tournament that uses their rulesets) have both houseruled it in their FAQ's to have only a 45 degree firing arc for each gun.
I don't like the swarm lord... such a point sink, he should of brought another flyrant and maybe would of won.
Geoff just brought his TAC list, the one that he won Best Tyranids with at the BAO 2014 and also the one that he has helped popularized in competitive play. Personally, I agree with you and would swap out Swarmy for a 4th flyrant, but Geoff has done quite well with Swarmy as a force-multiplier unit (Prefered Enemy to Barbie is pretty darn good!) as well as a board control unit and bodyguard. BTW, our match was unplanned (which is one of the reasons why I didn't bring my camera). He just happened to be there with his army and so I asked him for game. Thus, we both brought TAC armies without any expectations of who or what we were going to face.
dan2026 wrote: I have a question as to how the Tyranocite and Sporecyst's guns work.
Monsterous creatures have a 360 line of sight, so do all 5 of its guns fire at the nearest unit? Even though some of the guns will technically be pointing in a different direction.
I am also curious here.
So, the "Rules as Written" answer is that each gun shoots the closest model in range and Line of Sight. Since MCs have 360 degrees of Line of Sight, each gun will all have line of Sight to the closest target. For MCs, range is measured from the base and guns don't have a fixed position so the closest unit to the base is the closest enemy unit to all of the guns. In short, by the Rules as Written, all 5 guns will always target the same unit, the closest one.
Now, I would recommend checking FAQs on this for specific GTs if youre going to one. I believe the ITC has ruled on it in more of a RAI fashion. There is an alternate view that RAW all guns still have 360 degrees LOS, but will fire at the closest unit to each gun individually, so they can fire at the closest to the gun if theres a few close targets, or at a single unit if it's the closest to all of them.
Just a quick update to the ones who may be interested in how this tournament went.
We played doubles, and since we were only six players we had a singles table as well. We doubled the VPs from the singles table to keep up with the points from the doubles table for tie breaker. It was a weird tournament setup, but that’s how you need to do it sometimes when so few people show up.
I made a last minute change to the list and took out the Zoanthrope and Mucolid for another unit of Hormagaunts. My list looked like this:
I didn’t feel it was a very strong list, but I was hoping to have some fun and win a few games.
Game 1 with Imperial Guard vs. Eldar and Orks
Spoiler:
We played kill points, they went first and there was no night fighting. Turn one the Eldar Farseer went for Psychic Shriek and succeeded with one die, I tried to deny it with eight dice but couldn’t, and he rolled a triple sixes for First Blood onto my Hormagaunts. In the shooting phase, he shot with his seven Scatter Bikes and some Shuriken Bikes and took down my Flyrant and Malanthrope and three wounds off of my Carnifex. My saves rolled horribly and I knew we were going to lose but we played it out for the victory points. My teammates Imperial Guard could obviously not stand against Nob Bikers as they ran through squads after squads.
Game 2 with Eldar vs. Eldar and Imperial Guard
Same Eldar opponent as before, but with my last teammate as his teammate. My teammate is a very good Necron player, but this time around he took his Eldar with him. We go first and prepare an alpha strike against our opponents.
Turn one we killed a few Windriders and some Guardsmen. Although we didn’t do too much damage we were feeling pretty safe, having a lot of meaningful targets in their face. My teammate flat out his Wave Serpent carrying Wraithguard and I brought my kind-of-deathstar up the field. Their turn they did a wound to my swooping Hive Tyrant with two Lascannon platforms and I failed my jink save. He took a wound from grouding check. Nothing else of note happened. Our turn two my teammate convinced me that charging my Flyrant into his Windriders with his warlord and challenging him was the play, although I was set on going into ongoing reserves. I consider it for some time but decide that he probably knows what he was talking about and charge. My Hormagaunts took the overwatch and he accepted the challenge. His two attacks hit and wounded, and I managed to fail both my armor saves. I did one wound back.
Their next turn they shot my Malanthrope (failed five out of seven armor saves) and Carnifex.
So we went from a convincing lead to a devastating loss.
0-2
The next two games is coming up later.
Ouch! Assaulting the bikes with your flyrant was a gamble that could have paid off big-time, only the dice just wasn't on your side. Painful when that happens.
Looking forwards to the rest of your report!
felixcat wrote: I'm actually thinking that the playing field is getting leveled. There are some very difficult match ups for Eldar, BTW. I watched a drop squad skitarii list (used flesh teafer allies) take Eldar apart early and the game before the Eldar could recover fully and control the game which had started. One more turn would have been bad for the skitarii but they got lucky and ebded turn five.
I also saw Tyranids beat decurion with orkinstar. Orekinstar beats a lot of builds but is bad against heavy flyer lists which the Nid list featured.
I think Eldar will be strong but I think that every list has its counter now and really that makes for an interesting meta.
Wait til you see a good general running Eldar. Eldar can be beaten, but in a capable General's hand, it is really tough to do so. Watch out for Matt DeFranza's Eldar which he is running at Killadelphia (Seer Council, Windrider Host, 3 WK's!!!) or my own teammate, Grant GTA who is running a really nasty list (combining Eldar, Skitari and Blood Angels!). Yeah, no list is invincible. Any list is beatable. What makes Eldar so good is that it is a very forgiving army, just like Necrons were last edition. Eldar could be getting their a$$es handed to them (like mine were), but then still win the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iechine wrote: Solid first round at Killadelphia, tabled my opponent. However there are some scary lists here, my low experience and midlevel list are in for a rough tourney.
So how'd you do? Who won? Was it Matt Defranza's Eldar or the Pentyrant player?
foto69man wrote: I'll post this while it's still frsh in my mind.
Just got home from the Alamo GT. I ran the following:
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
mucolid
mucolid
mucolid
rippers
rippers w/deep strike
dakka fex in a pod
t-fex in a pod
venomthrope
I played against:
Game 1 Clan Raakun
Game 2 Tervigon Nids
Game 3 Quadflyrant (almost a mirror match)
Game 4 Grey Knights/Imp Knight
Game 5 Grey Knights
So matchmaking was a bit skewed to say the least.
Game 1 I squirreled a bit with my target selection and got outscored big time, lost 19-1
Game 2 I failed 4 armor saves/fnps first round of shooting. Made a comeback, and tied 10-10
Game 3.........well shize. 4 Flyrants, mucolids, lictor, and 3 mawlocs. He got first turn, I didn't seize. He took 2 flyrants down to 1 wound with great rolling. Then I periled a full wound Flyrant. After that it went steadily downhill lost 19-1
Day 2
Game 4 was some redemption. Imp Knight, Dreadknight, 5 man Termie squad, paladin blob with draigo and stern. I went second, only the imp knight on the board. All 5 flyrants go for him. Boom, down to 3 HPs. 2nd turn his dreadknight comes in nearby the knight. My dakkafex danger close drops next to his dreadknight and hits spot on! I start off by encircling the imp knight. Warp lance him in the side, he fails his invul, I pen, and get the d3 HP...roll.........3! Ok, so what are 5 flyrants, a dakka-fex, and a pod to do? Pop a dreadknight that is. Had to wheel around, flew past the blob and popped draigo ;-) Finally came back around and 1 warp lance, t-fex template, and 36 dev shots later his termies are gone. Win for me 19-1
Game 5...Another Grey Knight guy?!? Oh well...3 Dreadknights, 2 Storm Ravens, strike squad and a draigo blob. I roll 4 warp blast powers ;-) I go first, he doesn't seize. I paroxysm a dreadknight down to 1 BS/WS...then warp lance/dev shot the other dreadknight off the board. Storm ravens come on. Takes all 5 flyrants to pop one...ugh. After that though, pop the other raven, t-fex mishaps and he places him in the corner. I kill a few termies and wipe his strike squad that was obj camping, he concedes. win 19-1
So I finished 2 wins, 2 loses, and 1 draw. Not too shabby for my first GT I suppose? Still need to get better target priority going on, and maelstrom will always hurt this list. Might drop the t-fex as he was relatively unremarkable. Thoughts on that? I might mess around with him and run this list a few more times before making changes. Nut yeah, flyrants are still boss, and facing another flyrant list just gets funny/dumb/sad/1st turn wins...lol
If you guys have any questions let me know and I'll answer as best as I can remember, bit tired right now.
I would drop the Tyrannofex, he doesn't do a lot for me either. I'd suggest some AP2 (Exocrine or Mawloc) in your list, probably the Mawloc.
Iechine wrote: Solid first round at Killadelphia, tabled my opponent. However there are some scary lists here, my low experience and midlevel list are in for a rough tourney.
So how'd you do? Who won? Was it Matt Defranza's Eldar or the Pentyrant player?
Fill us in when you have the time.
I finished in 18th with second best Tyranids. Matt ended up beating Pentyrant.
The other Tyranids were all at least 4 Tyrants, mawlocs, lictors and Crones. I'm extremely happy and surprised with how my list did. I took pics of all the games and a lot of armies, I will summarize them later. I played Iron Warriors, Krootman's Eldar, Drop Pod Bloodangel/Grey Knight, Tau Firebase, Skiitari w/SM, and Wolves w/IG.
My biggest take away is that my Melee tyrant was all star MVP. I kept a tally of his murdering spree: 2 Landraiders, 10 man chaos SM, Maulerfiend, Wraithknight, 14+ Grey Knight, 3 Broadside/6 shield drone/Crisis suits, 3 Onager Dune Crawlers (squadron), and a massive chunk of Fenris wolves and IG. I'm never leaving home without him, at no point did he not have a role to play or an inability to get in to combat. For the most part, his presence gave me huge board control.
Iechine wrote: Solid first round at Killadelphia, tabled my opponent. However there are some scary lists here, my low experience and midlevel list are in for a rough tourney.
So how'd you do? Who won? Was it Matt Defranza's Eldar or the Pentyrant player?
Fill us in when you have the time.
I finished in 18th with second best Tyranids. Matt ended up beating Pentyrant.
The other Tyranids were all at least 4 Tyrants, mawlocs, lictors and Crones. I'm extremely happy and surprised with how my list did. I took pics of all the games and a lot of armies, I will summarize them later. I played Iron Warriors, Krootman's Eldar, Drop Pod Bloodangel/Grey Knight, Tau Firebase, Skiitari w/SM, and Wolves w/IG.
My biggest take away is that my Melee tyrant was all star MVP. I kept a tally of his murdering spree: 2 Landraiders, 10 man chaos SM, Maulerfiend, Wraithknight, 14+ Grey Knight, 3 Broadside/6 shield drone/Crisis suits, 3 Onager Dune Crawlers (squadron), and a massive chunk of Fenris wolves and IG. I'm never leaving home without him, at no point did he not have a role to play or an inability to get in to combat. For the most part, his presence gave me huge board control.
Awesome work Lechine, always nice to see people mixing things up.
How do you feel your list would fair against WolfStars or New Eldar?
Would be interested in a tactics for using your super beast!
It depends on the mission type, honestly. I really liked this format, I think the new Eldar would have been a struggle but I also feel like its not impossible. Without any real experience against WolfStar, I cant really say how it would go.
I'm slowly but surely doing a summary over here, I'll throw my ideas about him in there.
Zach's Killadelphia Summary
Today for our weekly casual league I'm trying out the dreaded Maleceptor in a Neural Node formation.
What? Yes. I'm actually fielding one that i bought, assembled, and painted over the weekend. It's mostly an excuse to try out the new neuro/zoanthrope en masse.
My opponent is a decent player who I usually win against. He's been doing really well in our group with his Khorne Daemonkin army lately, so this will be a test for me to see if i've still got it.
His list is prettymuch a Blood Host using the SlaughterCult, Gore Pack, and a Bloodstorm with a Soulgrinder added in.
So his MO will be getting across the table to me quickly. If i roll well with Spirit Leeches and Warp Blasts I should be able to take out his MSU units, while the flyrants tackle the DP and rear armor of the Daemon Engines.
I'll check back in after the game and let you all know how the Neural Node actually did. Wish me luck.
Iechine wrote: It depends on the mission type, honestly. I really liked this format, I think the new Eldar would have been a struggle but I also feel like its not impossible. Without any real experience against WolfStar, I cant really say how it would go.
I'm slowly but surely doing a summary over here, I'll throw my ideas about him in there.
Zach's Killadelphia Summary
I like your list Zach. I feel that it has a lot of the units needed to take on some of the newer lists - drop pod skitarriii, eldar, daemonkin. I will be testing out the cc flyrant as well although 325 points is really steep to field a fully kitted out one.
I think a tervigon has uses now. ObSec is very important and board control also helps quite a bit. I also feel dual Mawlocs is the path to follow if you are playinjg them at all. However, if going cc there are options that may be better.
Hey thanks. Honestly the only thing I am taking a second hard look at in my list is the Mawloc. She did absolutely terrible in all 6 games, only really contributing strongly in the last one. Not once did she come on target.
It's worth pointing out that I didnt play Necrons, and I think they would give me the hardest time of all. I am halfway considering a Crone in place of the Mawloc as a reliable source of strong AP4 for Warrior blobs. But that may not be enough and Biovores start looking like a better alternative.
325 is expensive I agree, but he does everything you wish the Swarmlord could do and more. He's fast, keeps a mobile 4+ cover, can reliably double out MEQ, is a huge threat to any vehicle, and can adapt to the situation in combat. He provides a tough choice for the opponent's target priority, and working in harmony with the Malanthrope you can use it to your advantage.
I also played in Killadelphia with Tyranids (aqua & teal), and will say with certainty that Tyranids struggle greatly against decurion Necrons. I had two games against them and if it wasn't for one of the missions being killpoints they would have been total blowouts. We just get absolutely crushed in board control, and I really dont see an easy solution. I ran:
Anytime a mawloc or licor popped up, it immediately disappeard. The Crone and Flyrants flew around achieveing almost nothing beyond kiling Scarabs, Ghost Arks, and min squads. Assualt and Obsec seem like the only real way of dealing with them. Unfortunately, Wraiths will simply shred any of our assualt units and our obsec is very lacking. I'm thinking about experimenting with Tervigons or Skytyrant, but really don't see much coming of it.
Any unit with infiltrate special rule you should use that in turn 1. Just same as deep strike in turn 1. Lictor can infiltrate.
Pre-deployment- place your own piece in opposition deployment zone but keep space for mawloc pop up. Hide your Lictor there and there.. Pray it stay out of line of sight.
In turn 2 your mawloc arrive with your luck and swallow freshman.
Solidcrash wrote: Any unit with infiltrate special rule you should use that in turn 1. Just same as deep strike in turn 1. Lictor can infiltrate.
Pre-deployment- place your own piece in opposition deployment zone but keep space for mawloc pop up. Hide your Lictor there and there.. Pray it stay out of line of sight.
In turn 2 your mawloc arrive with your luck and swallow freshman.
Swallow freshman? That's rather cruel!
But actually I would say that Lictors should only be infiltrated in Eternal War missions. In Maelstrom they are much more useful to pop in by DS to take objectives. But, I am honestly thinking that I don't need Lictors in a list with 2 or fewer Mawlocs, since I know I will not be using Maelstrom missions.
I'm not at all convinced that mawlocs and lictors are the answer to eldar and decurion. Sean might have won with them but he wins with almost anything, lol.
I think having more ObSec in outr lists and not just filling in with mucoloids (heresy, I know) might be a better route now. Also seeing a lot more pod lists so null deployment looks better and better at times - something I need to explore more.
I also am not liking our barbed hierodule as much as I once did as he costs so much and there are counters in every list. I'm having a difficult time fielding my Nids these days against top lists - in casual play they excel still.
I'm not at all convinced that mawlocs and lictors are the answer to eldar and decurion. Sean might have won with them but he wins with almost anything, lol.
I think having more ObSec in outr lists and not just filling in with mucoloids (heresy, I know) might be a better route now. Also seeing a lot more pod lists so null deployment looks better and better at times - something I need to explore more.
I also am not liking our barbed hierodule as much as I once did as he costs so much and there are counters in every list. I'm having a difficult time fielding my Nids these days against top lists - in casual play they excel still.
I think that Barbed Hierodules are too pricey as a single unit to be a good TAC choice. He is not great in Maelstrom as he can only get 1 objective, whereas other really tough units in other armies do the same for cheaper. He is a good Wraithknight counter but can get D'd in a bad strike of luck. For the same points as a Barbie I can get 2 Mawlocs and a TFex in a Cyte, with a few points left over. That's 4 Tyranid MCs for a total of 24 wounds that can deep strike on three different objectives, and can all move after. It's a lot of ignores cover crap coming in that can hold whatever objective card you happen to draw.
I will have to say I am not a fan of the Mawloc personally. They are way to random for me. Lictors I think are good and I will be taking a look at them for the ITC. I'm just not sold on them as they for me at lest have a very low damage output.
I'm not at all convinced that mawlocs and lictors are the answer to eldar and decurion. Sean might have won with them but he wins with almost anything, lol.
I think having more ObSec in outr lists and not just filling in with mucoloids (heresy, I know) might be a better route now. Also seeing a lot more pod lists so null deployment looks better and better at times - something I need to explore more.
I also am not liking our barbed hierodule as much as I once did as he costs so much and there are counters in every list. I'm having a difficult time fielding my Nids these days against top lists - in casual play they excel still.
I think that Barbed Hierodules are too pricey as a single unit to be a good TAC choice. He is not great in Maelstrom as he can only get 1 objective, whereas other really tough units in other armies do the same for cheaper. He is a good Wraithknight counter but can get D'd in a bad strike of luck. For the same points as a Barbie I can get 2 Mawlocs and a TFex in a Cyte, with a few points left over. That's 4 Tyranid MCs for a total of 24 wounds that can deep strike on three different objectives, and can all move after. It's a lot of ignores cover crap coming in that can hold whatever objective card you happen to draw.
He is an all star in the ITC format. Between their nerfs to D, and the way they do Maelstrom, Barbie comes up big. Compared to the Wraith Knight he is abysmally overcosted, but compared to the Wraith Knight, everything is abysmally overcosted. He will do more damage most games than 2 Mawlocs, a Tfex and a Tyrannocyte. He is also harder to kill for most armies, and for certain problems, the best answer is a STOMP.
If you are playing with un-nerfed Eldar he isn't viable, but then again nothing in the codex is terribly viable against un-nerfed Eldar as you can see from the batrep between JY2's C+ Eldar list and InControl's A- Tyranid List.
shadowfinder wrote: I will have to say I am not a fan of the Mawloc personally. They are way to random for me. Lictors I think are good and I will be taking a look at them for the ITC. I'm just not sold on them as they for me at lest have a very low damage output.
Mawlocs do have a very low damage output when I use them in games, I fully agree. But, I think they are best used to grab objectives mid game. They are our cheapest T6 3+ wounds in the book, and can deep strike on an objective regardless of if another unit is claiming it. I don't count on them as damage dealers but for their points they are very cheap objective dropping units. Given the choice I would gladly drop them on an empty objective late game compare to an enemy unit.
Solidcrash wrote: Any unit with infiltrate special rule you should use that in turn 1. Just same as deep strike in turn 1. Lictor can infiltrate.
Pre-deployment- place your own piece in opposition deployment zone but keep space for mawloc pop up. Hide your Lictor there and there.. Pray it stay out of line of sight.
In turn 2 your mawloc arrive with your luck and swallow freshman.
Swallow freshman? That's rather cruel!
But actually I would say that Lictors should only be infiltrated in Eternal War missions. In Maelstrom they are much more useful to pop in by DS to take objectives. But, I am honestly thinking that I don't need Lictors in a list with 2 or fewer Mawlocs, since I know I will not be using Maelstrom missions.
Hee hee!
Person, I like infiltrated with genestealer + broodlord and you can use The Horror Psychic attack on non-fearless unit and you might got lucky made them unable to shoot blast and have to snap shot in turn 1. Good head start for tyranids if there are long range unit. But pretty useless to fearless unit.
Lictor infiltrated allow me to deep strike mawloc in turn 2 without scattered ( my mawloc ALWAYS scattered and mistable..)
It is good idea to bring in 3 list in your pocket. Tell your opponent your play as Tyranids and ask your opponent what he play as.
Alright so had my game last night with the Neural Node, here are some thoughts:
Psychic Powers - with the node plus 2 flyrants, i had a ton of psychic powers. I rolled psychic scream for 3 of my units, warp blast on the maleceptor (kind of a waste), and didn't get ANY catalysts (boo). I had 12 psychic dice +D6 so still had to pick and choose what powers were most important to me at the time.
Spirit Leech (neurothope power) is amazing. Even though it has to roll to hit, at least Neuros are BS4. Draining wounds into warp dice for warp blast makes the zoanthropes damage output greatly increase. A+
Psychic Overload - it's so trash on paper i never tried to manifest it even once. F
Neural Node overall - the 18" SitW never came into play as my opponent had no psykers. the re-roll 1's on psychic tests only really helped 2 powers succeed over a 6 turn game. It's useful, sure, but the real reason to take the node is to get extra zoanthropes.
Maleceptor was basically there to kill raptors and possessed that had gotten near my zoeys, that's it.
Bottom line - i like the idea of the formation, but the command benefits don't outweigh the 205 point tax the maleceptor brings. With a CAD and a Hive Fleet detachment it would be better to take 2x3 zoey/neuro units and 3x1 zoanthropes and get 10 warp dice.
**Edit - I won 13-6 on Maelstrom mission 1, btw. **
foto69man wrote: I'll post this while it's still frsh in my mind.
Just got home from the Alamo GT. I ran the following:
Spoiler:
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
Flyrant double devs and e grubs
mucolid
mucolid
mucolid
rippers
rippers w/deep strike
dakka fex in a pod
t-fex in a pod
venomthrope
I played against:
Game 1 Clan Raakun
Game 2 Tervigon Nids
Game 3 Quadflyrant (almost a mirror match)
Game 4 Grey Knights/Imp Knight
Game 5 Grey Knights
So matchmaking was a bit skewed to say the least.
Game 1 I squirreled a bit with my target selection and got outscored big time, lost 19-1
Game 2 I failed 4 armor saves/fnps first round of shooting. Made a comeback, and tied 10-10
Game 3.........well shize. 4 Flyrants, mucolids, lictor, and 3 mawlocs. He got first turn, I didn't seize. He took 2 flyrants down to 1 wound with great rolling. Then I periled a full wound Flyrant. After that it went steadily downhill lost 19-1
Day 2
Game 4 was some redemption. Imp Knight, Dreadknight, 5 man Termie squad, paladin blob with draigo and stern. I went second, only the imp knight on the board. All 5 flyrants go for him. Boom, down to 3 HPs. 2nd turn his dreadknight comes in nearby the knight. My dakkafex danger close drops next to his dreadknight and hits spot on! I start off by encircling the imp knight. Warp lance him in the side, he fails his invul, I pen, and get the d3 HP...roll.........3! Ok, so what are 5 flyrants, a dakka-fex, and a pod to do? Pop a dreadknight that is. Had to wheel around, flew past the blob and popped draigo ;-) Finally came back around and 1 warp lance, t-fex template, and 36 dev shots later his termies are gone. Win for me 19-1
Game 5...Another Grey Knight guy?!? Oh well...3 Dreadknights, 2 Storm Ravens, strike squad and a draigo blob. I roll 4 warp blast powers ;-) I go first, he doesn't seize. I paroxysm a dreadknight down to 1 BS/WS...then warp lance/dev shot the other dreadknight off the board. Storm ravens come on. Takes all 5 flyrants to pop one...ugh. After that though, pop the other raven, t-fex mishaps and he places him in the corner. I kill a few termies and wipe his strike squad that was obj camping, he concedes. win 19-1
So I finished 2 wins, 2 loses, and 1 draw. Not too shabby for my first GT I suppose? Still need to get better target priority going on, and maelstrom will always hurt this list. Might drop the t-fex as he was relatively unremarkable. Thoughts on that? I might mess around with him and run this list a few more times before making changes. Nut yeah, flyrants are still boss, and facing another flyrant list just gets funny/dumb/sad/1st turn wins...lol
If you guys have any questions let me know and I'll answer as best as I can remember, bit tired right now.
Not bad, not bad at all. There are some very good players in Texas. One of these days, I would love to go to one of the Texas tournaments (maybe next year).
If you drop the t-fex, you might want to consider beefing up your scoring. DS rippers and lictors will be the way to go if you want to do so, unless you can somehow fit in 2 mawlocs.
Do you know if they've posted the results to the Alamo GT yet? If so, do you have a link? Thanks.
Iechine wrote: Solid first round at Killadelphia, tabled my opponent. However there are some scary lists here, my low experience and midlevel list are in for a rough tourney.
So how'd you do? Who won? Was it Matt Defranza's Eldar or the Pentyrant player?
Fill us in when you have the time.
I finished in 18th with second best Tyranids. Matt ended up beating Pentyrant.
The other Tyranids were all at least 4 Tyrants, mawlocs, lictors and Crones. I'm extremely happy and surprised with how my list did. I took pics of all the games and a lot of armies, I will summarize them later. I played Iron Warriors, Krootman's Eldar, Drop Pod Bloodangel/Grey Knight, Tau Firebase, Skiitari w/SM, and Wolves w/IG.
My biggest take away is that my Melee tyrant was all star MVP. I kept a tally of his murdering spree: 2 Landraiders, 10 man chaos SM, Maulerfiend, Wraithknight, 14+ Grey Knight, 3 Broadside/6 shield drone/Crisis suits, 3 Onager Dune Crawlers (squadron), and a massive chunk of Fenris wolves and IG. I'm never leaving home without him, at no point did he not have a role to play or an inability to get in to combat. For the most part, his presence gave me huge board control.
Do you feel that one of the reasons why your meleerant did so well was because your opponents under-estimated it and basically ignored it enough so that it made it into combat? Overall, how do you feel about his resiliency? Better than the dimachaeron in a spore?
I am thinking about adding a little cc-option into my bug list. The meleerant gives me options now.
Iechine wrote: Hey thanks. Honestly the only thing I am taking a second hard look at in my list is the Mawloc. She did absolutely terrible in all 6 games, only really contributing strongly in the last one. Not once did she come on target.
It's worth pointing out that I didnt play Necrons, and I think they would give me the hardest time of all. I am halfway considering a Crone in place of the Mawloc as a reliable source of strong AP4 for Warrior blobs. But that may not be enough and Biovores start looking like a better alternative.
325 is expensive I agree, but he does everything you wish the Swarmlord could do and more. He's fast, keeps a mobile 4+ cover, can reliably double out MEQ, is a huge threat to any vehicle, and can adapt to the situation in combat. He provides a tough choice for the opponent's target priority, and working in harmony with the Malanthrope you can use it to your advantage.
My mawloc also tends not to perform well in many of my games. However, I feel that she is still necessary for her mobility and for the "threat" she represents to my opponent and their mobility. And, of course, she fits my null-deployment strategy perfectly. However, she is not a must-take and I might change her up depending on the style of Tyranids I want to play.
I like your list Zach. I feel that it has a lot of the units needed to take on some of the newer lists - drop pod skitarriii, eldar, daemonkin. I will be testing out the cc flyrant as well although 325 points is really steep to field a fully kitted out one.
I think a tervigon has uses now. ObSec is very important and board control also helps quite a bit. I also feel dual Mawlocs is the path to follow if you are playinjg them at all. However, if going cc there are options that may be better.
I like your list, felixcat. And I'm also liking the variety in many of these Tyranid lists.
997Turbo wrote: I also played in Killadelphia with Tyranids (aqua & teal), and will say with certainty that Tyranids struggle greatly against decurion Necrons. I had two games against them and if it wasn't for one of the missions being killpoints they would have been total blowouts. We just get absolutely crushed in board control, and I really dont see an easy solution. I ran:
Anytime a mawloc or licor popped up, it immediately disappeard. The Crone and Flyrants flew around achieveing almost nothing beyond kiling Scarabs, Ghost Arks, and min squads. Assualt and Obsec seem like the only real way of dealing with them. Unfortunately, Wraiths will simply shred any of our assualt units and our obsec is very lacking. I'm thinking about experimenting with Tervigons or Skytyrant, but really don't see much coming of it.
Curious to hear everyones thoughts.
I actually haven't played against the new necrons yet. Going to have to play my Tyranids against them one of these days (fortunately, I often see the ITC 2014 Best Necron player at my LGS and have played against him several times, just not with my bugs).
Just some notes:
1. Put objectives in ruins or terrain with cover. Your army will benefit more from it than the Necrons will.
2. Kill off the spider in the Canoptek Harvest formation. He is the one giving those wraiths Reanimation Protocols.
3. The new Necrons have weak anti-air but strong ground presence. So the tradeoff is this - strong air superiority at the expense of Maelstrom ground objectives. Adjust your list if you want a stronger ground presence (by sacrificing on 1 or maybe even 2 flyrants).
4. Tervigon + 30 termagants is something to consider. They make for a good, ObSec ground foundation and I believe Necrons will have trouble against this type of build. The main threats to them are wraiths and flayed ones, of which your flyrants will have to help clear out or weaken.
5. If you want to go assault, then the dimachaeron or meleerant is the way to go. A list like the one felixcat posted above can actually work very well against Necrons.
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Solidcrash wrote: Any unit with infiltrate special rule you should use that in turn 1. Just same as deep strike in turn 1. Lictor can infiltrate.
Pre-deployment- place your own piece in opposition deployment zone but keep space for mawloc pop up. Hide your Lictor there and there.. Pray it stay out of line of sight.
In turn 2 your mawloc arrive with your luck and swallow freshman.
That is one strategy you can run. However, running this type of strategy will depend on a number of factors:
1) Terrain. Is the terrain setup conducive to this strategy? Is there BLOS-terrain or ruins for your lictor to infiltrate in?
2) Your opponent's army. If your opponent is really shooty, then you might want to reserve him to deny your opponent the easy kill (again, this depends on terrain and whether you can hide him or not). If your opponent has a fast assault army, then you just may be making it easier for your opponent to assault by placing your lictor closer to him.
3) Mission types. Playing Eternal War, yeah, fine. Playing Maelstrom missions (or Maelstrom secondary missions)? As jifel pointed out, you might want to reserve your lictors to come in on objectives later in the game.
4) What happens if the mawlocs do not come in? You are gambling on the mawloc coming in, but there is a 1/3 chance that it might not and now you've left your lictor out there to die.
It is a viable strategy in certain circumstances, but you definitely need to evaluate your situation and your opponent's army before applying it.
I'm not at all convinced that mawlocs and lictors are the answer to eldar and decurion. Sean might have won with them but he wins with almost anything, lol.
I think having more ObSec in outr lists and not just filling in with mucoloids (heresy, I know) might be a better route now. Also seeing a lot more pod lists so null deployment looks better and better at times - something I need to explore more.
I also am not liking our barbed hierodule as much as I once did as he costs so much and there are counters in every list. I'm having a difficult time fielding my Nids these days against top lists - in casual play they excel still.
Mawlocs and lictors are viable because you aren't really using them to play against the opponent. Rather, you use them to play the missions. If you play the missions well, you always have a chance, no matter what type of army you go up against (heck, if you play against an army that out-matches yours, sometimes, playing the mission is the only way for you to win). Sean's list wins because it plays the mission very well (and of course, he is a phenomenal player). If you notice, his list doesn't normally win by tabling yours (although it certainly could). Rather it wins by out-surviving yours and beating you at the missions.
I agree that ObSec is necessary. Beyond the 3 mucolids for Leviathan since there is no ObSec in the Leviathan detachment anyways, I prefer to run Rippers as my de facto troop choice for my CAD.
Barbie is still good. He hasn't really changed all that much. However, deathstar armies - which is basically what a Tyranid army with Barbie is - inherently has trouble against MSU. You're getting better resiliency and in most cases, better offense/firepower with a deathstar build but at the expense of army flexibility, which is what MSU gives you.
IMO, against the very top lists, MSU Tyranids has the best chances. Besides the flyrants, losing any single unit will not hurt your army as much as in regular Tyranid lists. It also causes many of your opponent's lists to operate inefficiently (yeah, so your 5 centurions just killed a single lictor, whoopee!). The trade-off, of course, is that your list will bleed Kill Points in VP missions.
tetrisphreak wrote: Alright so had my game last night with the Neural Node, here are some thoughts:
Psychic Powers - with the node plus 2 flyrants, i had a ton of psychic powers. I rolled psychic scream for 3 of my units, warp blast on the maleceptor (kind of a waste), and didn't get ANY catalysts (boo). I had 12 psychic dice +D6 so still had to pick and choose what powers were most important to me at the time.
Spirit Leech (neurothope power) is amazing. Even though it has to roll to hit, at least Neuros are BS4. Draining wounds into warp dice for warp blast makes the zoanthropes damage output greatly increase. A+
Psychic Overload - it's so trash on paper i never tried to manifest it even once. F
Neural Node overall - the 18" SitW never came into play as my opponent had no psykers. the re-roll 1's on psychic tests only really helped 2 powers succeed over a 6 turn game. It's useful, sure, but the real reason to take the node is to get extra zoanthropes.
Maleceptor was basically there to kill raptors and possessed that had gotten near my zoeys, that's it.
Bottom line - i like the idea of the formation, but the command benefits don't outweigh the 205 point tax the maleceptor brings. With a CAD and a Hive Fleet detachment it would be better to take 2x3 zoey/neuro units and 3x1 zoanthropes and get 10 warp dice.
**Edit - I won 13-6 on Maelstrom mission 1, btw. **
Minor nitpick...While I agree with your grade, I don't think it is "right" to grade it if you never used it. (Malecepter) Idon't know "It looks so bad I never try to use it" does look like an "F" but how can we "play test" if we don't play it? Maybe "D-" until someone is crazy enough to use it?
Do you feel that one of the reasons why your meleerant did so well was because your opponents under-estimated it and basically ignored it enough so that it made it into combat? Overall, how do you feel about his resiliency? Better than the dimachaeron in a spore?
I am thinking about adding a little cc-option into my bug list. The meleerant gives me options now.
Not always, but I did definitely feel that way on two games. In one my opponent outright said "You told me about him but I just kinda glossed over it", which was after he scouted his Onager Squadron up turn 1. I then seized, and the superbeast was on them immediately turn 1.
His survivability is augmented by me having 10 psychers, almost guaranteeing he gets catalyst supplied (and he did). Plus his movable jink save and a malanthrope positioned to be able to run with fleet to keep him in a protective bubble. Often times I had people prioritizing the
Malanthrope first. That and a 12" movement had him in combat every one of the six games by turn two, which is worth its weight in gold over a spore dima...if I could pay 50 more points or so for the cost of a dima in pod to ensure it got in to combat turn 2 consistently, then there is
your cost effectiveness right there. Ymgarl factor is 40 wopping points, but it lets me stay alive against massed no ap attacks, cut down larger groups, or consistently double out marines/suits, not to mention tough armor threats.
To be honest I took him as a 'fun' and silly option for my list, but now I wont leave home without him. *shrug* Krootman and I discussed it a bit about it being a supposed point sink, but he pointed out that it's board control is massive...I never snapped my fingers and wished
I'd taken a 4th dakka flyrant instead.
Do you feel that one of the reasons why your meleerant did so well was because your opponents under-estimated it and basically ignored it enough so that it made it into combat? Overall, how do you feel about his resiliency? Better than the dimachaeron in a spore?
I am thinking about adding a little cc-option into my bug list. The meleerant gives me options now.
Not always, but I did definitely feel that way on two games. In one my opponent outright said "You told me about him but I just kinda glossed over it", which was after he scouted his Onager Squadron up turn 1. I then seized, and the superbeast was on them immediately turn 1.
His survivability is augmented by me having 10 psychers, almost guaranteeing he gets catalyst supplied (and he did). Plus his movable jink save and a malanthrope positioned to be able to run with fleet to keep him in a protective bubble. Often times I had people prioritizing the
Malanthrope first. That and a 12" movement had him in combat every one of the six games by turn two, which is worth its weight in gold over a spore dima...if I could pay 50 more points or so for the cost of a dima in pod to ensure it got in to combat turn 2 consistently, then there is
your cost effectiveness right there. Ymgarl factor is 40 wopping points, but it lets me stay alive against massed no ap attacks, cut down larger groups, or consistently double out marines/suits, not to mention tough armor threats.
To be honest I took him as a 'fun' and silly option for my list, but now I wont leave home without him. *shrug* Krootman and I discussed it a bit about it being a supposed point sink, but he pointed out that it's board control is massive...I never snapped my fingers and wished
I'd taken a 4th dakka flyrant instead.
How do you think he would fair against Wraithknights or Riptides?
Against a riptide, he would naturally hit on 3's, rerolling 1s, and on the charge have 7 attacks. Wounding on 2's and rerolling failed wounds means I might get one or two 6's and thats up to his invul to save him. Anyone who's ever had their MC in combat with a Riptide knows they somehow manage to get wounded more than they should, so hopefully catalyst protects.
Against a Wraithknight? Here's hoping for those 6's. He still swings first being initiative 8. I'd give him extra attacks and hope my shred rerolls produce more 6's.
I know this isn't the rules discussion but I didn't think it was justified to make a new thread for this question.
I'm a new player and recently obtained a swarm box and also purchased a tervigon / venomthrope box, which i build two venoms and a zoanthrope.
My question is in regards to the Carnifex.
Why is the stranglthorn cannon considered a poor upgrade when you can successful pin a unit to run your adrenal glands hormagaunts into them without getting mowed down in overwatch?
Also, does using crushing claws force my carnifex to do all of his attacks on Initative 1 if I have one that is ST , CC combined for two sets of melee weapons?
Thanks for this thread, VERY insightful for a new player.
Sinful Hero wrote: We're still missing a few units from the reviews right? I know I signed on for Meiotic Spores and still haven't gotten around to it.
All the formations too - I've used some but not enough to get a good feel of how it performs against different armies.
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Alaxandir wrote: I know this isn't the rules discussion but I didn't think it was justified to make a new thread for this question.
I'm a new player and recently obtained a swarm box and also purchased a tervigon / venomthrope box, which i build two venoms and a zoanthrope.
My question is in regards to the Carnifex.
Why is the stranglthorn cannon considered a poor upgrade when you can successful pin a unit to run your adrenal glands hormagaunts into them without getting mowed down in overwatch?
Also, does using crushing claws force my carnifex to do all of his attacks on Initative 1 if I have one that is ST , CC combined for two sets of melee weapons?
Thanks for this thread, VERY insightful for a new player.
As the author of that particular review, it's outclassed. Not sure if I put it in, but a Harpy does it better as it is Hard to Hit and TL so if you scatter badly, then you can reroll as opposed to taking wounds on your guys. Stranglethorn Cannons also neglect the Carnifexes base S9 which is extremely useful for popping high AV targets, such as Walkers (particulary with D3 HoW).
To sum it up, a Carnifex wants to be up close. Devourers are extremely good for it as it has enough attacks and strength to threaten any vehicle without resorting to smash - the guns allow it to perform other roles, such as cheap AA and anti horde.
Monstrous Creatures aren't affected by Unwieldy so you strike at I2. It doesn't seem like much, but you do tie with Orks and co if you're tarpitted (Devourers help stop this) and go before Stomp attacks should you be in that position.
This is the case with many a Nid unit. It is never so much as that unit is bad - it is usually this unit is better.
I can take a Trygon Prime with Reaper of Obliiterax for 275 points. It is not a bad unit. It has decent dakka and very good cc.
On the other hand I can also DS a Dimachaeron in a Deathspitter Tyranocyte for 275 points. The Dimachaeron is just a better cc monster. I also have a ton of dakka and two MCs.
Ergo no Trygon Prime. This is the same as you Carnie. He is decent but there is better. .
Speaking of Tyrgon primes> I have to take one to a Major Tournament on the west coast this week end I have to take a trygon because of losing a big bet in a game.
I have two list That I have narrowed down. If I could get some feed back on List 1 or 2 that be great. list 3 is for fun and craziness.
SO these are the what I have come up with after getting feed back and some play testing. I have to take one of these to the
Guardian Cup 8 the Ocho. in 4 days. let me know what you think.
Both are Null deployment style list. with a solid back field unit/s for the ITC mission format.
List one. Has deployment option in that I can start on the board with a 2+ cover save if it is advantages too.
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
Malanthrope Brood [Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
20x Hormagaunt [20x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
List two is a better tool box army. A TAC list if you will. I was thinking of splitting the hormagaunts in to 2, 15 man units? Would that be a good Idea.?
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
[Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
Hormagaunt Brood
30x Hormagaunt [30x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Biovore Brood [Biovore, Biovore]
Well this is one is just all craziness.
Null overload. Not sure what to think o this one s I have not tested it. but it look to be a lot of fun and is fast in it's own way. Scorring could be a issue but I can be anywhere on the board when I wish to be.
List 3
Solidcrash wrote:
Any unit with infiltrate special rule you should use that in turn 1. Just same as deep strike in turn 1. Lictor can infiltrate.
Pre-deployment- place your own piece in opposition deployment zone but keep space for mawloc pop up. Hide your Lictor there and there.. Pray it stay out of line of sight.
In turn 2 your mawloc arrive with your luck and swallow freshman.
Jy2 wrote
That is one strategy you can run. However, running this type of strategy will depend on a number of factors:
1) Terrain. Is the terrain setup conducive to this strategy? Is there BLOS-terrain or ruins for your lictor to infiltrate in?
A) if there are no BLOS then I will keep my Lictor in reserve till need to - maelstrom = capture objective when card said so or wait till turn 5.
2) Your opponent's army. If your opponent is really shooty, then you might want to reserve him to deny your opponent the easy kill (again, this depends on terrain and whether you can hide him or not). If your opponent has a fast assault army, then you just may be making it easier for your opponent to assault by placing your lictor closer to him.
A) that is why I like add genestealer with broodlord behide BLOS and use the horror to pinning shooty unit. So they cannot overwatch.
3) Mission types. Playing Eternal War, yeah, fine. Playing Maelstrom missions (or Maelstrom secondary missions)? As jifel pointed out, you might want to reserve your lictors to come in on objectives later in the game.
A) study your opponent deployment first. You can infiltrate AFTER both of you deployments. If it is safe to infiltrate instead of deep strike in turn 2 then do it now.
4) What happens if the mawlocs do not come in? You are gambling on the mawloc coming in, but there is a 1/3 chance that it might not and now you've left your lictor out there to die.
A) true. Might need get Ravens for cheap tarpit to keep Lictor alive longer.. Or take double mawloc in bigger game as back up... All reserve roll fail to deep strike then have to gritted your teeth.... Cursed at your Dice God.
Heh. My choice to take in double Lictor is only when I have too many unit in reserve. If none at all or maelstrom objectives then either I do not include Lictor in my list or keep them in reserve.
shadowfinder wrote: Speaking of Tyrgon primes> I have to take one to a Major Tournament on the west coast this week end I have to take a trygon because of losing a big bet in a game.
I have two list That I have narrowed down. If I could get some feed back on List 1 or 2 that be great. list 3 is for fun and craziness.
SO these are the what I have come up with after getting feed back and some play testing. I have to take one of these to the
Guardian Cup 8 the Ocho. in 4 days. let me know what you think.
Both are Null deployment style list. with a solid back field unit/s for the ITC mission format.
List one. Has deployment option in that I can start on the board with a 2+ cover save if it is advantages too.
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
Malanthrope Brood [Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
20x Hormagaunt [20x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
List two is a better tool box army. A TAC list if you will. I was thinking of splitting the hormagaunts in to 2, 15 man units? Would that be a good Idea.?
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
[Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
Hormagaunt Brood
30x Hormagaunt [30x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Biovore Brood [Biovore, Biovore]
Well this is one is just all craziness.
Null overload. Not sure what to think o this one s I have not tested it. but it look to be a lot of fun and is fast in it's own way. Scorring could be a issue but I can be anywhere on the board when I wish to be.
List 3
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Hive Crone
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Spine Banks, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Mawloc
Do you have to use the Reaper? The Trygon is already considered overcosted, and the Reaper only excaberates that problem. Maw-Claws would be a decent choice though, especially if you pull off the preferred enemy(don't count on it though).
As to your lists, I really like the first one best. I've always liked Dakkafexes in pods, because they're two scoring units in one and they can be placed where they're needed most.
Perhaps with the points saved on a Reaper you have enough to upgrade your ADL into a bastion?
Might have to shave off a hormagaunt or two as well.
shadowfinder wrote: Speaking of Tyrgon primes> I have to take one to a Major Tournament on the west coast this week end I have to take a trygon because of losing a big bet in a game.
I have two list That I have narrowed down. If I could get some feed back on List 1 or 2 that be great. list 3 is for fun and craziness.
SO these are the what I have come up with after getting feed back and some play testing. I have to take one of these to the
Guardian Cup 8 the Ocho. in 4 days. let me know what you think.
Both are Null deployment style list. with a solid back field unit/s for the ITC mission format.
List one. Has deployment option in that I can start on the board with a 2+ cover save if it is advantages too.
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
Malanthrope Brood [Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
20x Hormagaunt [20x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Spore Mine Cluster [4x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Biovore Brood [Biovore]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
List two is a better tool box army. A TAC list if you will. I was thinking of splitting the hormagaunts in to 2, 15 man units? Would that be a good Idea.?
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Elites +
[Malanthrope]
+ Troops +
Hormagaunt Brood
30x Hormagaunt [30x Toxin Sacs]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Biovore Brood [Biovore, Biovore]
Well this is one is just all craziness.
Null overload. Not sure what to think o this one s I have not tested it. but it look to be a lot of fun and is fast in it's own way. Scorring could be a issue but I can be anywhere on the board when I wish to be.
List 3
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
+ Troops +
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
Mucolid Spore Cluster [Mucolid Spore]
+ Fast Attack +
Hive Crone
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
+ Heavy Support +
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex [Spine Banks, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms]
Mawloc
Trygon Prime [The Reaper of Obliterax]
Aegis Defense Line [Comms Relay]
++ Tyranids: Codex (2014) (Allied Detachment) ++
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [Electroshock Grubs, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings]
3x Ripper Swarm [3x Deep Strike]
Spore Mine Cluster [3x Spore Mine]
Mawloc
Do you have to use the Reaper? The Trygon is already considered overcosted, and the Reaper only excaberates that problem. Maw-Claws would be a decent choice though, especially if you pull off the preferred enemy(don't count on it though).
As to your lists, I really like the first one best. I've always liked Dakkafexes in pods, because they're two scoring units in one and they can be placed where they're needed most.
Perhaps with the points saved on a Reaper you have enough to upgrade your ADL into a bastion?
Might have to shave off a hormagaunts or two as well.
Unfortunately the reaper has to stay. The bet was he got to pick one model, and the rules for it, that I had in my collection. And he choose the trygon with the reaper . I use it is a fluffy subterranean assault list I run for new people cause it looks really cool.
As for the trygon he is not all that bad of a unit really. he could stand to be cheaper I do agree with that. But he is still a good unit that with the reaper hits first and instant kill is a nice bonus when it works. The plus 1 strength makes him very good at killing transports, I have been pleased to find out.
Just to make sure I understand the shred rule. Does it allow me to reroll armor pins?
I tried the bastion and it would in my area destroyed to easily first turn. The ADL can't be killed and you can hide spore mines completely out of line of site really easy. With it only 1 inch away from the table edge makes it very had to get line of site to the units manning it turn one.
Verse army's with ways to ignore cover and barrage weapons I just place more units with in 2 in. to make it harder to kill everything. Works really well. Most of the time I my opponent wastes two rounds of shooting and has placed his units in a piece meal fashion across the table making them easy targets to take apart. First turn very few armies can kill the units on the board behind the ADL or the one units that on the other side of the table from the ADL making sure I don't get tabled.
Iechine wrote: Ymgarl factor is 40 wopping points, but it lets me stay alive against massed no ap attacks, cut down larger groups, or consistently double out marines/suits, not to mention tough armor threats.
Did you honestly get 40pts worth out of Ymgarl for your Meleerant? I've run a very similar Flyrant in my last tournament,
Imo, Rending Claws (for AV 14) and Electroshock Grubs give much better worth in tactical use, and it's cheaper. Other threats in melee are mostly AP 2 so Ymgarl doesn't really help. And Egrubs helps with the defense (Wall of Death).
Strength 9 on the charge is very useful when you really need it. Im confused why you would rather have Rending claws on AV14, as that makes your tyrant S7 on the charge needing 6's followed by the D3 (as opposed to just needing 5's).
Iechine wrote:Hey thanks. Honestly the only thing I am taking a second hard look at in my list is the Mawloc. She did absolutely terrible in all 6 games, only really contributing strongly in the last one. Not once did she come on target.
It's worth pointing out that I didnt play Necrons, and I think they would give me the hardest time of all. I am halfway considering a Crone in place of the Mawloc as a reliable source of strong AP4 for Warrior blobs. But that may not be enough and Biovores start looking like a better alternative.
325 is expensive I agree, but he does everything you wish the Swarmlord could do and more. He's fast, keeps a mobile 4+ cover, can reliably double out MEQ, is a huge threat to any vehicle, and can adapt to the situation in combat. He provides a tough choice for the opponent's target priority, and working in harmony with the Malanthrope you can use it to your advantage.
As I told you, its not the most optional tyrant build, but it will shred cron units it gets into combat with, and without it, our game would not have been nearly as close, it was the only thing that gave you any kind of board control in the early turns.
997Turbo wrote:I also played in Killadelphia with Tyranids (aqua & teal), and will say with certainty that Tyranids struggle greatly against decurion Necrons. I had two games against them and if it wasn't for one of the missions being killpoints they would have been total blowouts. We just get absolutely crushed in board control, and I really dont see an easy solution. I ran:
Anytime a mawloc or licor popped up, it immediately disappeard. The Crone and Flyrants flew around achieveing almost nothing beyond kiling Scarabs, Ghost Arks, and min squads. Assualt and Obsec seem like the only real way of dealing with them. Unfortunately, Wraiths will simply shred any of our assualt units and our obsec is very lacking. I'm thinking about experimenting with Tervigons or Skytyrant, but really don't see much coming of it.
Curious to hear everyones thoughts.
Yea I am honestly considering dropping the malwocs, or going down to one for NOVA for spot killing units. With the introduction of mass crons, and with tau seemingly taking a back seat in the current east coast meta, its usefulness has gone down alot.
Do you feel that one of the reasons why your meleerant did so well was because your opponents under-estimated it and basically ignored it enough so that it made it into combat? Overall, how do you feel about his resiliency? Better than the dimachaeron in a spore?
I am thinking about adding a little cc-option into my bug list. The meleerant gives me options now.
Not always, but I did definitely feel that way on two games. In one my opponent outright said "You told me about him but I just kinda glossed over it", which was after he scouted his Onager Squadron up turn 1. I then seized, and the superbeast was on them immediately turn 1.
His survivability is augmented by me having 10 psychers, almost guaranteeing he gets catalyst supplied (and he did). Plus his movable jink save and a malanthrope positioned to be able to run with fleet to keep him in a protective bubble. Often times I had people prioritizing the
Malanthrope first. That and a 12" movement had him in combat every one of the six games by turn two, which is worth its weight in gold over a spore dima...if I could pay 50 more points or so for the cost of a dima in pod to ensure it got in to combat turn 2 consistently, then there is
your cost effectiveness right there. Ymgarl factor is 40 wopping points, but it lets me stay alive against massed no ap attacks, cut down larger groups, or consistently double out marines/suits, not to mention tough armor threats.
To be honest I took him as a 'fun' and silly option for my list, but now I wont leave home without him. *shrug* Krootman and I discussed it a bit about it being a supposed point sink, but he pointed out that it's board control is massive...I never snapped my fingers and wished
I'd taken a 4th dakka flyrant instead.
How do you think he would fair against Wraithknights or Riptides?
In our game, it killed a wk, and I was pretty scared of it...the only way I was able to advance my knights was keeping them fully in terrain so that I would at least go first against it. That tyrant combind with parxosism is a pretty nasty combo. The only thing is, I wounder if there is a way to make it a little bit cheaper and still keep it an effective cc monster. Especially now that wraithknigths are no longer a thing
Rending Claws equals S8-10 on the charge, plus chance to cause damage in later rounds, which is pretty good use of 5 points compared to not be able to hurt AV 14 at all in subsequent rounds with S7.
My main point is that I don't see how Ymgarls is worth 40 points. The difference between S8 and S9 is too small (still can't double out T5) and you can't even chose the same morph twice in a row, for some derp reason.
I am with nib on this I say ro the rending claws and put regeneration or something else on the tyrant to make it last longer. If you are running a melee tyrant the formation with the garg's would be really good. just keep it small and have them trail behind him.
N.I.B. wrote: Rending Claws equals S8-10 on the charge, plus chance to cause damage in later rounds, which is pretty good use of 5 points compared to not be able to hurt AV 14 at all in subsequent rounds with S7.
My main point is that I don't see how Ymgarls is worth 40 points. The difference between S8 and S9 is too small (still can't double out T5) and you can't even chose the same morph twice in a row, for some derp reason.
Yea I agree, especially with wks gone now t8 is no longer really a thing
I keep trying to find a way to want to run endless swarm but the lack of OS makes me worried it will not do what I want it to do. Part of me wants to run skytyrant, skyblight and an allied formation to get a malanthrope some rippers and another flyrant in there.
The biggest issue is needing more gargs which is fine...50 would be a lot of fun. It is the three harpies/crones I don't own.
I did some mathammer on Flyrants VS WKs, so figured I'd share. First off though - yeah, you can only use ONE melee weapon at a time, That means that you can take a LWBS/Reaper for WKs and the Maw-Claws for vehicles, but I really don't see the point. If you have the Reaper, you're Str7 anyway so can glance IKs on a 6 - better if you have AG and get the charge, or use Ymgarl for the +Str (though I'd probably sit in cover and let an IK charge me for the Haywire WoD, at least until the Knight is weakened). If using Maw-Claws, you get a 2/3 chance to pen instead of glance on 6s, unless you have buffed your strength with something else. The Pref Enemy from Maw-Claws isn't really that fantastic either since OA renders it obsolete. I guess it could be a cool thing to try - especially in Skytyrant as Pref Enemy will buff the Gargoyles, but I don't think it's necessarily that great for killing IKs?
Anyway, Wraithknight math. Fyi these figures are slightly rounded so there will be some slight room for error - but which option is best remains fairly clear. All assume OA and the Reaper (so +1 Str and Shred). With just that, a Flyrant will deal 2.77 wounds (Str 7 and 5 atks). Add on the Ymgarl factor and you have 2 choices - the attacks or the Str. Choosing Attacks will net you 3.48 wounds (6 atks, Str 7), whilst the Str will get you 3.79 (5 atks, Str 8) - the Str is the best option. If you factor in a charge and AG, things look a little better: without Ymgarl you deal 4.98 wounds (Str 8, 6 Atks). With it and picking Atks, you get 5.83 wounds (Str 8, 7 Atks); choosing Str, you deal 6.69 (Str 9, 6 Atks), so again Str is better. Note that in all these cases the FNP has not been factored in, so even the most decked out Flyrant is statistically unlikely to be able to solo a WK down from full health. Also, I wasn't sure if 6s causing ID allowed FNP saves on the WK since it's gargantuan, so I decided to leave it for now.
Iechine wrote: Pretty sexy. I feel Superbeast has his place.
In my meta when I run a melee Tyrant he is always the 1st Tyrant to die. In games where opponents don't have the firepower to kill a Tyrant, I'm probably winning anyways. In games where the opponent can kill a Tyrant in 1 round of shooting, the Melee Tyrant is a very expensive distraction unit. A great solution to Decurion Destroyers though if you can convince you opponent not to shoot at
Also, I'm pretty confident there is no situation where Rending Claws (or Maw Claws) out perform a RoO or Smash. If the RoO Can't do it, you want to Smash. With OA, smash is hitting 78% of the time. Because RC's only come into play with 1 in 6 hits, you would need to hit at least 4.67 times, which happens to be exactly the number of times you will hit with 2 CCW's. However, smash rerolls pens, and RC's don't, and Smash is a higher strength and pens more, and RC's don't. If you had the option to take Crushing Claws it would make sense, but since you don't, no need to waste points on RCs.
In my testing (not full blown statistical mathhammer, just tons and tons of dice rolling) you want to stay at S7 vs a wraithknight with the reaper.
ID does D3 wounds to Gargantuans and ignores their FNP roll. S7 Re-rolls results of 1-4, fishing for more 6's. S8 or 9 does more wounds on the average, but fewer are 6's as less dice get re-rolled (typically).
Additionally, a solo SBT (super beast tyrant) is still no match for a D weapon WK on the best day - just a single swing back has the chance to make him disappear. Skytyrant Swarm helps in thsi specific matchup - the WK is not a character, so can't challenge out the tyrant. His attacks are wasted on the gargoyles. A stomp still has the chance to delete him at I1 though, so risk is still involved. Additionally the gargoyles come with poison 6+ stock, so no upgrades are needed for them to wound the WK as well if you're lucky. Also the chance to blind it, maybe.
So, for the ablative wounds while getting to the enemy, as well as the protection from non character beaters that would challenge and punk the tyrant, i think the skytyrant swarm is definitely worth it. It also gives the SBT 18" synapse, which can come in handy for the rest of your army. Gargoyles are so cheap, and make the unit footprint so big, that it can even do well for grabbing different spread out objectives during maelstrom games.
tetrisphreak wrote: In my testing (not full blown statistical mathhammer, just tons and tons of dice rolling) you want to stay at S7 vs a wraithknight with the reaper.
ID does D3 wounds to Gargantuans and ignores their FNP roll. S7 Re-rolls results of 1-4, fishing for more 6's. S8 or 9 does more wounds on the average, but fewer are 6's as less dice get re-rolled (typically).
Additionally, a solo SBT (super beast tyrant) is still no match for a D weapon WK on the best day - just a single swing back has the chance to make him disappear. Skytyrant Swarm helps in thsi specific matchup - the WK is not a character, so can't challenge out the tyrant. His attacks are wasted on the gargoyles. A stomp still has the chance to delete him at I1 though, so risk is still involved. Additionally the gargoyles come with poison 6+ stock, so no upgrades are needed for them to wound the WK as well if you're lucky. Also the chance to blind it, maybe.
So, for the ablative wounds while getting to the enemy, as well as the protection from non character beaters that would challenge and punk the tyrant, i think the skytyrant swarm is definitely worth it. It also gives the SBT 18" synapse, which can come in handy for the rest of your army. Gargoyles are so cheap, and make the unit footprint so big, that it can even do well for grabbing different spread out objectives during maelstrom games.
Whilst I did initially wonder if the Atks were better than the Str, the 6s are factored in in my math above, so assuming I haven't ballsed up somewhere you still come out slightly ahead with Str. However, what is not considered in the math is the increased variance caused by getting more chances to hit 6s - and those 6s each causing D3 wounds. If you want to play a little bit riskier or need the thing dead, then the Atks are certainly not a bad choice, as you are (slightly) more likely to cause enough wounds to kill it dead (equally you will be more likely to fluff completely though). Str is reliable, Atks are risky but potentially higher payoff basically. It's not a huge difference either way in any case.
I agree that Skytyrant is definitely worth it tbh - whilst I don't necessarily disagree that the lone Superbeast can be very good, you gain a lot by being in a huge brood of Gargoyles.
For what its worth, I would probably ignore the WK and send SBT (I'm happy to have coined that BTW, as is Rob Zombie) after the Eldar players supporting units.
Meta's are all different, tournaments not so much. I took a TAC list and found SBT to have his place among the other Tyrants and Tervigon units. Thats about 10 games with this list in a east coast meta, I enjoy the flexibility of it and what it can do.
I, however, am still a new player and think it could do a lot better in the hands of someone more gifted and skilled at 40k. In a meta devoid of the new WK, I still feel he's a solid pick.
tetrisphreak wrote: In my testing (not full blown statistical mathhammer, just tons and tons of dice rolling) you want to stay at S7 vs a wraithknight with the reaper.
ID does D3 wounds to Gargantuans and ignores their FNP roll. S7 Re-rolls results of 1-4, fishing for more 6's. S8 or 9 does more wounds on the average, but fewer are 6's as less dice get re-rolled (typically).
You are right that there are fewer 6's, but generally you do better anyways.
Wounds = unsaved normal Wounds after FNP.
Bonus = Wounds caused by ID results.
Is this factoring in the fact that a 6 is ID, which ignores FNP and does d3 wounds?
If an OA tyrants with the reaper charges a WK for 6 S7 attacks, it should cause 3.94 wounds by my math. May be wrong here.
My working was: 4 hits, 5.3333 after OA. 1.7666 wounds, 0.8833 of which are ID. After shred, 1.1888 more wounds, 0.5944 of which are ID. So 2.95 wounds (think I did typo that one when recording these), factoring IDs in 4.425, then back to 3.94 after saves - so yeah you're right! Unsure where something went wrong there, and cba to go check right now tbh. I guess it means my figures are lower than they should be if anything?
So, I have a thought regarding Raveners. How does everyone feel about them if supported by Venomthropes (cover), The Swarmlord (furious charge/psychic support), and 3 deep striking dakkafexes in spores? Thinking of running about 18 of them, in a few squads.
More for a fun game, but it's something I've been wanting to try out, since Raveners can't get combat biomorphs.
Seeing how we've got some math going. I am still liking HyperToxic Node, and I am ruminating on the loadout...
Base: Winged Tyrant, Toxic, MawClaws, Thorax....230 points I am seriously considering Miasma Cannon. Because of the Special Rule, it might be viable....255 if I take it. Thoughts?
If you don't like MawClaws, Rending+ Old Adversary cost 20 points...? Base of 240...?
pinecone77 wrote: Seeing how we've got some math going. I am still liking HyperToxic Node, and I am ruminating on the loadout...
Base: Winged Tyrant, Toxic, MawClaws, Thorax....230 points I am seriously considering Miasma Cannon. Because of the Special Rule, it might be viable....255 if I take it. Thoughts?
If you don't like MawClaws, Rending+ Old Adversary cost 20 points...? Base of 240...?
I would try it - two templates on a platform like that sounds brutal for anything with a wounds characteristic. Still think the toxicrene is a bit of a tax, but I haven't used it yet so...
SBG wrote: So, I have a thought regarding Raveners. How does everyone feel about them if supported by Venomthropes (cover), The Swarmlord (furious charge/psychic support), and 3 deep striking dakkafexes in spores? Thinking of running about 18 of them, in a few squads.
More for a fun game, but it's something I've been wanting to try out, since Raveners can't get combat biomorphs.
Raveners are great. If Imperial Knights and Wraith Lord / Knights weren't a thing we might even see them finding their way into lists.
Personally, I think it is best to accompany Raveners with Shrikes for Synapse. Malanthropes can work, but Shrikes can keep up easier, and can take biomorphs and BS + LW for situational superiority.
If you don't want to run Malanthropes, you should put that Venom in a box (Bastion). If you are feeling really gutsy buy an escape hatch and 2 squads of 1 Venom. That way you can advance them upfield with the raveners.
The Swarmlord is very points inefficient. Use flyrants instead.
Soo my road to the nova open officially started Yesterday morning, which means its list building time!
So after reading basic primer, my first idea is msu bugs, my thoughts on lictors lately is they have been fantastic, but I always wish I had more of them, and when you read nova missions malwocs seem underwhelming most of the time.
So here is my first draft of bugs for the nova open
Cad
flyrant 240
Malenthrope 85
lictor 50
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 spore mines 15
Bunker with coms 75
This list has the ability to be whereever it wants, the -1 ld bonus deathleaper and his lictors provide will come in handy vs msu and I have some deep striking obsec that could come in handy from time to time.
My problem with Hypertoxic Node is that I do not want toxin sacs on my HT nor do I want three venomthropes. I want units downtable in tyrannocytes with this formation. So I find it a tax to field said upgrades.
However, if going that route - yes maw-claws and scything talons and egrub is all you need. Why take rending? You are already AP2 and ID. The miasma cannon is not a bad upgrade either but it can go on a tervigon that DSes with a tyrannocyte.
I can do as much damage with a simpler list without ther Node.
felixcat wrote: My problem with Hypertoxic Node is that I do not want toxin sacs on my HT nore do I want three venomthropes. I mwant units downtable in tyrannocytes with this formation. So I find it a tax to field said upgrades.
However, if going that route - yes maw-claws and scything talons and egrub is all you need. Why take rending? You are already AP2 and ID. The miasma cannon is not a bad upgrade either but it can go on a tervigon that DSes with a tyrannocyte.
I can do as much damage with a simpler list without ther Node.
Rending only costs 5 points, and it gives me a small chance to take out heavy armor. The Toxin is not a waste in my eyes because the Special Rule gives all poison attacks IK on a 6 (or 5-6 if they have IK 6) so I view it as a cheap Bone Sword. MawClaws costs 10 but gives PE on a kill, so I see it as "OK".
Without the Special Rule, I don't normally see Miasma Cannon as being worthwhile...but Maybe a IK Template/Blast can earn it's points back...
I agree that Toxicrene has not "proven" it's self yet, but it is about the only Big Bug that has Shrouding, And a reasonable CC ability.
The main reason I like HyperToxic is it brings 3 Broods of Venos, that frees up Elite slots for Zoeys, or Lictors, etc...
I figure putting Toxicrene in a Pod lets me put a fairly survivable Big Bug in the backfield, and it does have a ranged Blast (that has IK by Special Rule) So I currently don't view Toxicrene as a "tax" (currently... ) Remember Toxi has Lash whips doesn't it? that can be handy once in a while... I think I can interpose the Pod to give the Toxi a decent cover save if I need to...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Solidcrash wrote: Just look in Tyranids wargear... Miasma Cannon? Maw-claws?
Is that sort of combined with weapon and upgrade? Explain please... It is first time for me to use poison weapon since 2nd edition!
Take a look at ..Bio Artifacts? something like that...only HQ quality units can take them...
About hypertonic node - Phodian Hive Warrior is useful there! 6pts cheaper than warrior with same wargear and upgrades but without Phodian Hive Warrior special rule.
Still I need know what / where can I find rule about maw-claws and cannon. EDIT - Ninjas ! Bah.
Just look in Tyranids wargear... Miasma Cannon is strength 1!?
Can anyone tell me why this is good? Re-roll on 2+ and 6 to wound a space marines....already ID space marine if this tyrant are part of node....
Maw-claws can take prefer enemy if kill first model... Include rending for extra 5 pts.. Maybe not bad but what if it got innate understanding? Such a waste if you just re-roll and got that...
If there are no (number+) mean re-roll on 6? Don't made a sense....
It means that it always wounds on the number+, in this case it always wounds in a roll of 2+. If there is no number+ then it is considered 4+.
The re-roll only happens if the strength is greater than the toughness of the target, which is impossible for S1.
How come it is impossible to wound a space marine with T4 use miasma cannon? Can wound on 2+... If space marine cuddle each other we just kill 8 men unless we roll a 1s... Prefer enemy can help with that(!)
And toughness of 10 we can wound on 2+ with miasma cannon?
That was much better than venom cannon..
No, don't listen to this spoiler.... If you did read it then read below..
EDIT
SBG wrote: So, I have a thought regarding Raveners. How does everyone feel about them if supported by Venomthropes (cover), The Swarmlord (furious charge/psychic support), and 3 deep striking dakkafexes in spores? Thinking of running about 18 of them, in a few squads.
More for a fun game, but it's something I've been wanting to try out, since Raveners can't get combat biomorphs.
Raveners are great. If Imperial Knights and Wraith Lord / Knights weren't a thing we might even see them finding their way into lists.
Personally, I think it is best to accompany Raveners with Shrikes for Synapse. Malanthropes can work, but Shrikes can keep up easier, and can take biomorphs and BS + LW for situational superiority.
If you don't want to run Malanthropes, you should put that Venom in a box (Bastion). If you are feeling really gutsy buy an escape hatch and 2 squads of 1 Venom. That way you can advance them upfield with the raveners.
The Swarmlord is very points inefficient. Use flyrants instead.
I've experimented with Raveners and Shrikes a bit (was running 6 of each, all with RC) but found them pretty lacklustre, at least in those numbers. I would like to try something like:
9 Raveners, 6 RC 9 Raveners, 6 RC 9 Shrikes, 6 RC, 3 LWBS, Flesh Hooks
Malanthrope in Bunkerwith Escape Hatch
But that clocks in at 1156 points... It's a hell of a lot.Still, adding a Skytyrant and/or Manufactorum Genes and having a full on rush army sounds pretty fun...
The other thing I want to try is running MSU Raveners/Shrikes - something like lots of units of 3, presumably with Leviathan+CAD to allow 6 units of fast moving assaulty threats that you can't reduce under 25%.
krootman. wrote: Soo my road to the nova open officially started Yesterday morning, which means its list building time!
So after reading basic primer, my first idea is msu bugs, my thoughts on lictors lately is they have been fantastic, but I always wish I had more of them, and when you read nova missions malwocs seem underwhelming most of the time.
So here is my first draft of bugs for the nova open
Cad
flyrant 240
Malenthrope 85
lictor 50
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 spore mines 15
Bunker with coms 75
This list has the ability to be whereever it wants, the -1 ld bonus deathleaper and his lictors provide will come in handy vs msu and I have some deep striking obsec that could come in handy from time to time.
Very interesting Nid list, good for the obj heavy Nova missions. Want to test play it against my daemons?
Hive Fleet Detachment and Skyblight Eternal War is about keeping your guys alive till turn five so 7 FMC's and respawning Gargoyles should be sufficient to last the game
Hive Fleet Detachment and Skyblight Eternal War is about keeping your guys alive till turn five so 7 FMC's and respawning Gargoyles should be sufficient to last the game
At 1650 it is literally just 3 flyrants, venom, 3 Mucoloids, and skyblight. And those 30 gargoyles don't do the job in the long run for scoring without any back up.
krootman. wrote: Soo my road to the nova open officially started Yesterday morning, which means its list building time!
So after reading basic primer, my first idea is msu bugs, my thoughts on lictors lately is they have been fantastic, but I always wish I had more of them, and when you read nova missions malwocs seem underwhelming most of the time.
So here is my first draft of bugs for the nova open
Cad
flyrant 240
Malenthrope 85
lictor 50
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 spore mines 15
Bunker with coms 75
This list has the ability to be whereever it wants, the -1 ld bonus deathleaper and his lictors provide will come in handy vs msu and I have some deep striking obsec that could come in handy from time to time.
Very interesting Nid list, good for the obj heavy Nova missions. Want to test play it against my daemons?
Alright, I'm free every night next week accept tues If you want to test
Hive Fleet Detachment and Skyblight Eternal War is about keeping your guys alive till turn five so 7 FMC's and respawning Gargoyles should be sufficient to last the game
A lot of people let the gargs get down to 2 or 3 models, then just shoot them off the table last turn of the game :/
Hive Fleet Detachment and Skyblight Eternal War is about keeping your guys alive till turn five so 7 FMC's and respawning Gargoyles should be sufficient to last the game
A lot of people let the gargs get down to 2 or 3 models, then just shoot them off the table last turn of the game :/
If you have multiple DS rippers with obsec you have some decent scoring potential there too.. Take second turn so you can drop your fliers if need be, and deepstrike some of the gargoyles from the start perhaps?
Am I right in thinking the Barbed Hierodule is the best anti tank in the Tyranid army.
12 shots at 48" S10. With 6 being able to split fire.
You can easily take down 2 vehicles per turn with average rolling.
And it's one Wraithknight or WolfStar to the face from being dead. I just don't think at 565 points with the amount of D out their now, it pulls its weiight now.
Barby is also missing half of his shots every shooting phase. I would pass simply due to him no longer being worth his points. Imperial knights and stomped will eat him in CC. Wraith knights are going to using D weapons against him for half his costs. Only way I would run mine is if I bring swarmlord for perfected enemy.
jpevansiii wrote: Barby is also missing half of his shots every shooting phase. I would pass simply due to him no longer being worth his points. Imperial knights and stomped will eat him in CC. Wraith knights are going to using D weapons against him for half his costs. Only way I would run mine is if I bring swarmlord for perfected enemy.
Which at 1650 points is a massive points sink into something that can just be one shot away from dead.
jpevansiii wrote: Barby is also missing half of his shots every shooting phase. I would pass simply due to him no longer being worth his points. Imperial knights and stomped will eat him in CC. Wraith knights are going to using D weapons against him for half his costs. Only way I would run mine is if I bring swarmlord for perfected enemy.
I would pass on him entirely honestly. 6 S10 hits is nice but not good for the points, and the lack of ap 2 shooting means a dreadknight can probably kill him in CC with force. The Swarmlord is WAY too expensive to merely buy him preferred enemy and will be shot quickly. Haywire is our best anti tank I'm afraid.
Agreed. Sorry about the auto correct. Damn auto correct. At the rate codices are flying on to the shelves, maybe nids will get a new book in the next year. Maybe a new BRB that doesn't handicap Smash SR or prevent FMC from charging the same turn changing flight modes. The last major codex releases have been bad news for nids. I stick with flyrant spam and MSU scoring units with some venomthrope support. Lots of little bugs getting synapse and shrouded with a malanthrope can work with mass poison CC attacks and can even be a decent tarppit for super heavies. I would leave the big expensive bugs at home for now. They can get shot off the board first turn and will never make it in CC past the first round.
jpevansiii wrote: Barby is also missing half of his shots every shooting phase. I would pass simply due to him no longer being worth his points. Imperial knights and stomped will eat him in CC. Wraith knights are going to using D weapons against him for half his costs. Only way I would run mine is if I bring swarmlord for perfected enemy.
I would pass on him entirely honestly. 6 S10 hits is nice but not good for the points, and the lack of ap 2 shooting means a dreadknight can probably kill him in CC with force. The Swarmlord is WAY too expensive to merely buy him preferred enemy and will be shot quickly. Haywire is our best anti tank I'm afraid.
I think Barbie could still be good, but likely only in comped rules sets, either with no ranged D allowed (where he isn't going to get instagibbed) or nerfs to D along the lines of -1 on the table. In standard 40k I definitely agree though, he's the ultimate case of all your spawning sacs in one basket.
jpevansiii wrote: Barby is also missing half of his shots every shooting phase. I would pass simply due to him no longer being worth his points. Imperial knights and stomped will eat him in CC. Wraith knights are going to using D weapons against him for half his costs. Only way I would run mine is if I bring swarmlord for perfected enemy.
I would pass on him entirely honestly. 6 S10 hits is nice but not good for the points, and the lack of ap 2 shooting means a dreadknight can probably kill him in CC with force. The Swarmlord is WAY too expensive to merely buy him preferred enemy and will be shot quickly. Haywire is our best anti tank I'm afraid.
I think Barbie could still be good, but likely only in comped rules sets, either with no ranged D allowed (where he isn't going to get instagibbed) or nerfs to D along the lines of -1 on the table. In standard 40k I definitely agree though, he's the ultimate case of all your spawning sacs in one basket.
Newcrons are utterly dominant in my local meta. Barbie is one of the best answers to them available to Tyranids.
D is a big problem for him, and he is overcosted, but he brings things that Tyranids don't have available otherwise, and depending on the missions he can be a dominant force. Give him a Malanthrope life-partner, and you have a decent combo that will go far in many, many games.
Sinful Hero wrote: We're still missing a few units from the reviews right? I know I signed on for Meiotic Spores and still haven't gotten around to it.
I will work on the 2 Lord of War gargantuans. Everything else is fair game if anyone wants to write a review on them.
krootman. wrote: Soo my road to the nova open officially started Yesterday morning, which means its list building time!
So after reading basic primer, my first idea is msu bugs, my thoughts on lictors lately is they have been fantastic, but I always wish I had more of them, and when you read nova missions malwocs seem underwhelming most of the time.
So here is my first draft of bugs for the nova open
Cad
Spoiler:
flyrant 240
Malenthrope 85
lictor 50
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 spore mines 15
Bunker with coms 75
This list has the ability to be whereever it wants, the -1 ld bonus deathleaper and his lictors provide will come in handy vs msu and I have some deep striking obsec that could come in handy from time to time.
I feel that you have way too many lictors. Lictors are effective, but only to a degree. I think your list is over-saturated with them and that isn't necessarily a good thing, especially if you opponent puts his objectives out in the open.
Eldercaveman wrote: I've got a big list dilemma on my hands, I have the UK Games Expo next weekend and I'm having a bit of a break down over my lists.
The format is 1650 points, 1 CAD (or alternative) then one of the following
1 Lord of War up to 600 points
1 Allied detachment ( no self allies)
1 Formation Detachment
And eternal war missions.
The meta is full of new Eldar, Imperial Knights and WolfStars, so as a Nid player I'm up against the ropes from the start.
Spoiler:
List A
Flyrant, Electro and Devourers
Flyrant, Devourers
Venomthrope
3 x Rippers deep strike
3 x rippers deep strike
3 x rippers deep strike
Both A & B are good. A gives you better resiliency and mobility with FMC-spam and respawning gargoyles. However, it's weakness is in its objective-holding ground forces. This list may have more problems in Maelstrom or Progressive-type missions.
List B gives you a better ground presence with 5 ground MC's and more resilient bodies. However, it is not as resilient as List A against the more shooty armies - Eldar, Tau, centstars, etc.
If you know the type of missions that you will be playing (maybe if you post a link to them), you want to pick out the list that is more "tailored" to the mission-types. Always build your list with the mission in mind.
jpevansiii wrote: Barby is also missing half of his shots every shooting phase. I would pass simply due to him no longer being worth his points. Imperial knights and stomped will eat him in CC. Wraith knights are going to using D weapons against him for half his costs. Only way I would run mine is if I bring swarmlord for perfected enemy.
IK's cannot stomp on Barbie. Stomps cannot be used on another super-heavy/gargantuan.
jpevansiii wrote: Barby is also missing half of his shots every shooting phase. I would pass simply due to him no longer being worth his points. Imperial knights and stomped will eat him in CC. Wraith knights are going to using D weapons against him for half his costs. Only way I would run mine is if I bring swarmlord for perfected enemy.
I would pass on him entirely honestly. 6 S10 hits is nice but not good for the points, and the lack of ap 2 shooting means a dreadknight can probably kill him in CC with force. The Swarmlord is WAY too expensive to merely buy him preferred enemy and will be shot quickly. Haywire is our best anti tank I'm afraid.
I think Barbie could still be good, but likely only in comped rules sets, either with no ranged D allowed (where he isn't going to get instagibbed) or nerfs to D along the lines of -1 on the table. In standard 40k I definitely agree though, he's the ultimate case of all your spawning sacs in one basket.
Newcrons are utterly dominant in my local meta. Barbie is one of the best answers to them available to Tyranids.
D is a big problem for him, and he is overcosted, but he brings things that Tyranids don't have available otherwise, and depending on the missions he can be a dominant force. Give him a Malanthrope life-partner, and you have a decent combo that will go far in many, many games.
That is true. Necrons will have problems against Barbie. They don't have much that can hurt him (having to rely mainly on rolling 6's) and Barbie's shooting will double-out most necrons as well as to lower their Reanimation Protocol saves.
Barbie is pretty matchup-dependent. Some armies have the tools to easily deal with him. Other armies, not so much. Overall, he does have value in a TAC Tyranid army. Whether you use him or not is going to depend more on what people tend to run in your local meta.
Both A & B are good. A gives you better resiliency and mobility with FMC-spam and respawning gargoyles. However, it's weakness is in its objective-holding ground forces. This list may have more problems in Maelstrom or Progressive-type missions.
List B gives you a better ground presence with 5 ground MC's and more resilient bodies. However, it is not as resilient as List A against the more shooty armies - Eldar, Tau, centstars, etc.
If you know the type of missions that you will be playing (maybe if you post a link to them), you want to pick out the list that is more "tailored" to the mission-types. Always build your list with the mission in mind.
My reply isn't meant to be me being ignorant or anything like that, just slightly lazy because I'm on my phone. But the answers to both your questions are in my post, now in bold XD
Don't take this the wrong way Love to here your input on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I say eternal war, it's slightly modified. There's no kill points missions, emps will and the relic are a combined mission. And secondaries, (first blood, warlord, line breaker) are only applied to your total tournament points. So you work out who won based on the objectives, then you add the secondaries to your tournament points.
Eldercaveman wrote: My reply isn't meant to be me being ignorant or anything like that, just slightly lazy because I'm on my phone. But the answers to both your questions are in my post, now in bold XD
Don't take this the wrong way Love to here your input on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I say eternal war, it's slightly modified. There's no kill points missions, emps will and the relic are a combined mission. And secondaries, (first blood, warlord, line breaker) are only applied to your total tournament points. So you work out who won based on the objectives, then you add the secondaries to your tournament points.
Haha....that's what I get for skimming through the post. I apologize for that.
In that case, Skyblight would be the stronger list if you are playing Eternal War missions. Stay in the air while dealing damage to your opponent and then land on T5 without risking too much of your army.
In terms of battle points, I think your other list, the Skytyrant list, has more potential to table your opponents for more battle points (that is, if the tournaments are scored based on battle points). However, it is also more likely to get tabled as well against the wrong opponent. Skyblight would be the safer bet for a victory in the long-term, though you might not necessarily score as many points with it (you are also less likely to lose big with it either).
Solidcrash wrote: Harpy have 4 one use Haywire weapon... Is that able to hunt Titan class include land raider? Hive tyrants have egrub.
Why it is not in most of list?
Haywire affects all armor unless the unit has a special rule that says it is immune (like the new Warlord Titan coming out from FW, which is the unit I think that you may be referring to?).
And it is the Hive Crone, not Harpy, with the haywire shots.
Solidcrash wrote: Harpy have 4 one use Haywire weapon... Is that able to hunt Titan class include land raider? Hive tyrants have egrub.
Why it is not in most of list?
Haywire affects all armor unless the unit has a special rule that says it is immune (like the new Warlord Titan coming out from FW, which is the unit I think that you may be referring to?).
And it is the Hive Crone, not Harpy, with the haywire shots.
confused with those two!
Iechine wrote:Wait what?
In last list have 3 flying monster creature in fast slot. Only one crone and double harpy sound good to me
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can't take a silent treatment!
My tactic to use crones against elder with WK I would vetor strike on WK and use drooling :s all over the jetbike....
Vetor strike with strength 8 is good enough for vehicle and WK that unable to hit back... Unless it have skyfire.... Sob sob..
The hive crone is ok. He's more survivable due to being a flyer. However, his damage output is very dependent on the type of army he will be facing. Against the right army, he could be worth it. Against the wrong army, he could potentially do little. He's got the tools to deal with different types of threats. However, he isn't great against any them. If I had to grade him, I'd rate him a solid B.
BTW, don't rely on him as your anti-Wraithknight solution. Every time you fly over him, you've only got a 33% of causing an unsaved wound against him (1/2 to wound and then he has a 5+ FNP). And then the crone needs to waste another turn or 2 thereafter to "get into position" again to VS the WK. Your strategy for the Hive Crone is only to VS the WK as a target of opportunity only if he is in the path of another target. Go after another target as your primary target and use the WK as a secondary "incidental" target instead.
Ok folks. I am still debating on what to take to the ATC 2015. The ATC is basically a team tournament consisting of 5 teammates and which there could be no repeat of any army, whether as primary, allies or a formation.
I'm down to 2 armies - either my Pentyrant Tyranids or my Centurionstar Grey Knight/Space Marines. So I've decided to let them duke it out to see who will be going with me.
This will be a brief battle report coming soon.....
5x Scouts - Meltabombs
Land Speeder Storm - Heavy Flamer
5x Scouts
Land Speeder Storm - Heavy Flamer
5x Scouts
Land Speeder Storm - Heavy Flamer
5x Scouts
Land Speeder Storm - Heavy Flamer
GK/SM psychic powers include Perfect Timing, Forewarning, Prescience, Psychic Shriek, and 2x Gates.
Tyranid psychic powers include 2x Catalysts, 2x Screams, 3x Paroxysms, 2x Horrors and 1x Blast. Fighter Ace is +1W.
Warlord traits are pretty much useless for either armies.
The centstar deploys only its deathstar. Everything else will be in reserves.
Since the Centstar was going first, I decided to take a big gamble. I decided to leave everything in Reserves except for my 3 mucolids. I spread out my 3 mucolids - 1 behind BLOS terrain in 1 corner, 1 in ruins in the opposite corner and 1 in ruins in the middle of my deployment zone.
TURN 1:
Spoiler:
GK's - The centstar teleports into Tyranid deployment territory. They manage only to kill 1 mucolid and put 2W on the other (due to grav-weaponry wounding them on 6's only).
Tyranids - derp, derp, derp....
TURN 2:
Spoiler:
GK's - Unfortunately for the Imperials, ALL of their reserves come in, despite Tigurius using his re-roll reserves ability to try to keep them out. They try best to hide their land speeders and grey knights.
The centstar shoots down another mucolid.
Tyranids - 3 flyrants, both rippers, 1 lictor and 1 mawloc comes in. 1 of the rippers mishap and go back into reserves. Mawloc lands dead-on and hits 5 members of the centstar. However, the GK's have placed their models such that any character in there could Look-Out-Sir to either Draigo or the Smashf*cker Chapter Master and their 3++ saves. Along with 4++ from Forewarning, damage is minimal with just a few wounds here and there. Mawloc then mishaps and the GK's put it right in front of the centstar.
Flyrants get a bead on 2 skimmers (couldn't hide 4 skimmers completely out of their LOS) and shoot them down. First Blood to Tyranids.
VP's - GK's: 0, Tyranids: 2
TURN 3:
Spoiler:
GK's - The 2 surviving land speeders move flat-out behind the 2 flyrants. This way, if my flyrants want to shoot them, I'd probably have to go into Gliding mode.
GK's then get off Force, Perfect Timing and Prescience. Forewarning gets denied.
Shooting via split-fire brings down 1 flyrant and puts 2W on the mawloc. The centstar then charges the mawloc and Draigo force weapons him to death.
VP's - GK's: 2, Tyranids: 2
Tyranids - The other 2 flyrants, 1 lictor, rippers and the other mawloc comes in. The 2 flyrants that just came in goes after the 2 speeders that were trying to get away from the 2 flyrants from last turn. Mawloc scatters but still partially hits the centstar. No damage is done as the wounds are LOS'd to a 3++ character and the mawloc goes back into reserves.
The 4 flyrants then combine to take out the remaining 2 land speeders as well as 1 unit of scouts.
VP's - GK's: 2, Tyranids: 5
Tyranids have also killed all 3 of their Marked for Death targets (3 land speeders).
TURN 4:
Spoiler:
GK's - The censtar Gates to go after the Warlord flyrant (who was on the opposite side of the board) as well as 1 of the lictors. However, Perfect Timing is denied!
Without Perfect Timing, the censtar only manages to cause 3W to my Warlord flyrant and fails to take down the lictor (with 2+ go-to-ground cover in ruins).
Scouts charge 1 unit of rippers and the grey knight strikers charge the other unit of rippers. Scouts do manage to finish off the rippers but the strikers will be stuck in cc with their rippers until the end of the game.
VP's - GK's: 3, Tyranids: 5
Tyranids - The rest of the army comes in. Mawloc goes after the centstar again but scatters and mishaps. Once again, the GK's put him right in front of them.
Warlord flyrant flies off the table to try to stay alive. 2 flyrants go after the 2 units of scouts. The other flyrant can either go after the centstar or fly off the table (not many targets left for him). He goes after the centstar.
1 flyrant wipes out the unit of scouts out in the open (the one who killed off the rippers last turn). The other flyrant takes out 3 scouts after they go-to-ground in ruins for the 3+ cover (that is average). 3rd flyrant takes off 1 or maybe 2W from the centstar.
VP's - GK's: 3, Tyranids: 6
TURN 5:
Spoiler:
GK's - Not much left for them to do. Chapter Master splits off to go after 1 lictor. He has to turbo-boost to get into range for an assault next turn (if there is one). Cypher splits off from the unit as well and joins a unit of scouts. They will assault the lictor this turn. Finally, the star will go after both the mawloc and the flyrant who shot at them last turn.
Draigo cast Force. However, Tyranids were able to deny Perfect Timing once again!
Without Perfect Timing, GK's are not able to take down the flyrant, though they do wound it. They also fail to wound the mawloc with split-fire. Cypher and scouts put 1 or 2W on the lictor with shooting.
We then go to assault. Cypher kills the lictor and Draigo force weapons another mawloc to death.
VP's - GK's: 5, Tyranids: 6
Warlord flyrant comes back in and goes after the Chapter Master. 1 flyrant goes into Gliding mode to try to finish off the scouts. The other flyrant starts heading towards the Chapter Master. The 4th flyrant will continue to work on the centstar (with Gate, there really is no way I can escape them so I might as well shoot at them).
Warlord perils while casting Catalyst and takes 1W (down to 1W remaining). He then fails his Grounding check! Oh crap! Fortunately for him, he passes his FNP save. Whew! But unfortunately for him, he is now on the ground for the Chapter Master to assault next turn! Gulp!
Flyrant 2 takes out the 2 surviving scouts. Flyrant 3 runs because he has no target to shoot. Flyrant 4 shoots at the centurions but they make all of the saves. Finally, the Warlord flyrant shoots at the Chapter Master....and takes him down to just 1W left! (To be fair, he already took 2W earlier from mawlocs and Tyranid shooting. )
VP's - GK's: 5, Tyranids: 7
If the game ends now, Tyranids would take VP's. They would also take Marked for Death (GK's have only killed 1 of the 3 lictors whereas Tyranids have taken out all 3 of their land speeder targets). Escalated Warlord would be a draw as both Warlord lives. In short, Pentyrant Tyranids would take a Crushing Victory if the game were to end now.
We roll to see if the game ends and.....
TURN 6:
Spoiler:
Alas, the game goes on.
GK's - Because the Tyranid Warlord is hiding behind BLOS terrain, the centstar would have to make a very risky Gate if they want to try to take out the Warlord flyrant. On the other hand, he is on the ground and can be assaulted by the Chapter Master, so the centstar decides to go after the other flyrant and the mawloc instead.
Fortunately for the bugs, Perfect Timing and Prescience fail to go off (I believe PT was denied once again). Draigo does manage to activate Force.
Both the flyrant and the mawloc survives GK shooting. The centstar then charges my mawloc and force weapons it to death.
Last but not least, Chapter Master charges the Warlord flyrant....and dies to Overwatch! (Overwatch only managed to do 1W but the Chapter Master failed his 2+ save against it!)
Disastrous turn for the Imperials! They could have gotten 3VP's this turn to take the lead but instead, they only pick up 1VP and also give up 1VP as well in the process.
VP's - GK's: 6, Tyranids: 8
Tyranids - I cannot fly my Warlord off the table because the game may end so all the flyrants stay on the table.
There really isn't any good targets for bugs. It's either the centstar or Cypher attached to a unit of scouts in 2+ cover ruins (and Cypher's unit is out of the ways for 2 of the flyrants). I go after the censtar, hoping to get lucky and maybe kill a character (or better yet, the Librarian Warlord). Shooting does not do anything of note as the centstar passes almost all of their saves.
VP's - GK's: 6, Tyranids: 8
I am hoping that the game will end. If it does, Tyranids would take VP's and Marked for Death, while we would tie on Escalated Warlord. Tyranids would still get the Crushing Victory if it ends.
We roll to see if the game ends and.....
.....to be concluded.
TURN 7:
Spoiler:
....there will be 1 final turn.
GK's - The centstar makes a risky Gate attemp where they can get both the Warlord flyrant and one of the lictors.....and they land successfully! Unfortunately for the bugs, they also get off Prescience and Perfect Timing this turn as well.
Shooting sees them easily kill off the Warlord (with just 1W remaining) and the lictor.
VP's - GK's: 8, Tyranids: 8
Tyranids - so now I've got Marked for Death and the GK's have got Escalated Warlord. We are tie on VP's. I need to go after his Warlord. If by some miracle I can kill him, then Tyranids will tie on Escalated Warlord but they will win on VP's. Almost every single model in the centstar has taken a wound or so (including the Warlord Librarian), so with a little bit of luck, it wouldn't be impossible to get that point. It would require killing 1 model, then his Warlord needs to fail his Look-Out-Sir roll and then his 2+ save.
Unfortunately, I don't get it as the centurions pass all of their saves yet again.
So Tyranids take Marked for Death (killing 3 land speeders vs the centstar killing only 2 lictors). The GK's take Escalated Warlord. Finally, we tie on VP's....or do we?
There is still 1 more assault to go and it has been going on for many turns already - the strikers vs the rippers (with only 1 striker left against 1 ripper). Strikers have been whiffing for several turns, which is why the ripper is still alive. However, strikers (who activated Force on their turn) finally manage to hit and force weapon the little ripper to death.
VP's - GK's: 9, Tyranids: 8
So Tyranids take Marked for Death. The GK's take both Escalated Warlord and VP's. GK's get Warlord and Linebreaker whereas Tyranids take First Blood and Linebreaker, for a 19-11 Grey Knight victory.
Solidcrash wrote: True.. Is there are harpy and crone creature report up ? I would like to read it because my crone kit arrive today and I am overjoyed. Heh.
Look like harpy is anti-infantry and crone is anti-vehicle...
I am looking forward to your battle report!
Crone is more AA these days. It can perform decently against vehicles but don't expect it to take out vehicles in one go, it's best to plink the last hull point off with it
Solidcrash wrote: True.. Is there are harpy and crone creature report up ? I would like to read it because my crone kit arrive today and I am overjoyed. Heh.
Look like harpy is anti-infantry and crone is anti-vehicle...
I am looking forward to your battle report!
Well, I did run Skyblight at the Bay Area Open GT 2014. You can find them in action here:
IMO, the crone is better as a anti-flyer/anti-horde unit whereas the harpy is a better anti-infantry/horde unit. Both of them are mediocre against ground tanks, but at least they do have the capability of damaging them.
Solidcrash wrote: True.. Is there are harpy and crone creature report up ? I would like to read it because my crone kit arrive today and I am overjoyed. Heh.
Look like harpy is anti-infantry and crone is anti-vehicle...
I am looking forward to your battle report!
Well, I did run Skyblight at the Bay Area Open GT 2014. You can find them in action here:
IMO, the crone is better as a anti-flyer/anti-horde unit whereas the harpy is a better anti-infantry/horde unit. Both of them are mediocre against ground tanks, but at least they do have the capability of damaging them.
Thank for battle report! Just read all of them. Enjoy it and I getting hand of how to plan out my brand new flying creature.
I declare I'll build Crone because my weakness is flyer and AV13 spam.
Egrub flyrant and crone can work as team against AV13 spam.. And of course with Dice God on my side! Heh
But go after easy target first might be good tactic as we need more wound toward our opponents in the first place..
Just be aware that Crones (being FMCs, MCs in particular) can only shoot 2 weapons at a time. That means it can never kill a vehicle in 1 turn of shooting!
Also, if it Vector strikes, it can only shoot 1 missile or its flame template.
I was at a NOVA style tourney this past weekend at Nick Navati's(I think he won or was 2nd) TLGS, some dude brought a 30 scat bike and some wave serpents list. He played a Nid player that ran flyrants and I think some Hive Crones or something. Any ways the Eldar had no way to deal with the all flyers and end up losing 0-max out, then he dropped out of tourney and left.
Saythings wrote: Just be aware that Crones (being FMCs, MCs in particular) can only shoot 2 weapons at a time. That means it can never kill a vehicle in 1 turn of shooting!
Also, if it Vector strikes, it can only shoot 1 missile or its flame template.
The only vehicle that the hive crone could potentially kill in 1 turn would be another flyer. Vector Strike for D3 S8 hits and then shoot it with 1 haywire shot. But other than that, it is better used to finish off straggling tanks with 1-2HP's remaining.
SonsofVulkan wrote: I was at a NOVA style tourney this past weekend at Nick Navati's(I think he won or was 2nd) TLGS, some dude brought a 30 scat bike and some wave serpents list. He played a Nid player that ran flyrants and I think some Hive Crones or something. Any ways the Eldar had no way to deal with the all flyers and end up losing 0-max out, then he dropped out of tourney and left.
Yeah, that's why they need the Crimson Death formation against Tyranids. Playing without it means that Eldar would most likely be the underdog against FMC-spam unless they were playing purely Maelstrom or Progressive missions. Massed scatterbikes just doesn't cut it as AA against massed FMC's.
Saythings wrote: Just be aware that Crones (being FMCs, MCs in particular) can only shoot 2 weapons at a time. That means it can never kill a vehicle in 1 turn of shooting!
Also, if it Vector strikes, it can only shoot 1 missile or its flame template.
The only vehicle that the hive crone could potentially kill in 1 turn would be another flyer. Vector Strike for D3 S8 hits and then shoot it with 1 haywire shot. But other than that, it is better used to finish off straggling tanks with 1-2HP's remaining.
And it can take out Hornets which is a big thing, because Guided/Priesenced Hornets are brutal against out FMC's
Solidcrash wrote: Harpy have 4 one use Haywire weapon... Is that able to hunt Titan class include land raider? Hive tyrants have egrub.
Why it is not in most of list?
Haywire affects all armor unless the unit has a special rule that says it is immune (like the new Warlord Titan coming out from FW, which is the unit I think that you may be referring to?).
And it is the Hive Crone, not Harpy, with the haywire shots.
confused with those two!
Iechine wrote:Wait what?
In last list have 3 flying monster creature in fast slot. Only one crone and double harpy sound good to me
pinecone77 wrote:
Solidcrash wrote: Harpy have 4 one use Haywire weapon... Is that able to hunt Titan class include land raider? Hive tyrants have egrub.
IK's cannot stomp on Barbie. Stomps cannot be used on another super-heavy/gargantuan.
I think that's probably Revenge of the Autocorrect - given the context it might have meant "stompas".
Had my first try with an Overlord Swarm the other day, as it happens; a 1600 point game (actually, 1635 - my opponent took a relic of some kind to boost his points. One of the downsides of superheavy based forces other than Knights and Superheavy Tanks is that they're hard to fit into exact points values).
I'm.....hesitant. They performed superbly and I'm a bit cautious about using them again because they felt a bit overpowered against a 'normal' army. On the other hand, my opponent had atrocious luck, which probably contributed far more to his loss than any tactical genius of mine.
Lists:
Spoiler:
My List - Unbound Overlord Swarm Scythed Hierodule
Scythed Hierodule
Barbed Hierodule
Opponent's List - Space Wolf Detachment Rune Priest with Rune Sword
Rune Priest with Rune Axe
Grey Hunters Squad with 2 Plasma Guns, Wolf Guard with Frost Blade
Grey Hunters Squad with 2 Plasma Guns, Wolf Guard with Power Fist
Dreadnought
Long Fangs Pack with 2 Plasma Cannons, Missile Launcher and Lascannon
Stormwolf with Twin Skyhammer Launchers, Lascannon and Twin-Linked Helfrost
Wolf Guard Terminators with 3 Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields, 2 Chainfists and 1 Assault Cannon
Predator Annihalator with Lascannon Sponsons
The game was a Maelstrom of War game - one of my first.
Spoiler:
Turn 1
It is night fighting this turn.
My Barbed Hierodule moved up and settled itself into cover on an objective, which turned out to be a targeting relay. Ouch.
It's first volley of fire lands three damaging hits on the predator, blowing it to pieces despite its 3+ cover save. Ouch
The Scythed Hierodule on my right flank thunders forwards and unloads pyro-acid onto the long fangs, who are at the forward edge of the enemy deployment zone. This kills one plasma cannon and the lascannon, as well as the pack leader. Ouch.
The left flank hierodule darts behind and around a building - agile makes these things scary quick - towards the wolf dreadnought. It ends on an objective, which turns out to be sabotaged. The resulting detonation does nothing to the hulking biotitan.
The Space Wolves....don't really achieve much. The long fangs miss with a krak missile and the plasma cannon just gives the left flank hierodule a healthy tan. The grey hunters with plasma guns knock off a wound on the left flank, but the dreadnought's multimelta misses. A freakin' bio-titan. From 2" away. ... Ouch.
Living Lightning is denied. Ouch.
The dreadnought charges in, causing another wound with its power fist, before it gets severly king-konged. It somehow survives on one hull point, but is immobilized.
Turn 2
The left flank Hierodule finishes off the dreadnought, taking no further damage.
The right flank Hierodule hurries past the building holding the remains of the long fangs, torching them out with pyro-acid as it passes. The unit is wiped out.
The Barbed Hierodule moves up to a central objective, firing at one of the long fang units, but only kills a couple due to cover saves from the ruins.
The space wolves reserves - the terminators and the stormfang - both don't show up. Ouch.
One Grey Hunters Squad moves up and doesn't rapid fire - hitting the left flank Hierodule with Living Lightning (causing a wound this time) and trying mobbing the biotitan with Krak Grenades and frost blade instead. This goes badly wrong - despite causing a few wounds, they are all saved and between stomps and scything talons, only four grey hunters and the rune priest survive to fall back. Ouch
The other grey hunters - at this point the only other unit left - fall back from the objective they were holding (a skyfire nexus) from the oncoming right flank biotitan under a Shrouded blessing and fire plasma guns, which don't achieve anything.
Turn 3
The Scythed Hierodules close on their closest Grey Hunter Packs and unleash a wash of pyro-acid, whilst the Barbed Hierodule skulks forward, providing supporting fire after the right flank Hierodule skitters out of the line of fire after shooting (did I mention that agile is awesome).
On the left flank, everyone but the Runic Armoured Rune Priest is killed (2+ saves really help against Bio-Titan weapons). On the right, only a handful of grey hunters are killed before, again, the Rune Priest's 2+ save soaks the remainder of the fire. The casualties do include both plasma guns, though. Ouch.
The lone rune priest gets emphatically stepped on in the assault phase by the left flank Scythed Hierodule.
In the Wolves' turn, both reserves finally show up. The terminators drop on an objective in my backfield, but scatter badly so it takes them a good run roll to get back to it. The Stormfang lines up on the wounded Hierodule and lets rip, causing two wounds with the Helfrost and Lascannons but leaving it with one wound left after it passed its strength test and the skyhammer missiles detonated harmlessly on the carapace. Ouch.
Turn 4
The Scythed Hierodule on the left flank hunkers down - the Stormfang is so close that it will have to drop to hover mode to get a shot on it. On the right flank, the Scythed Hierodule moves up and burns three more Grey Hunters.
The Barbed Hierodule moves up, grabbing the skyfire nexus previously held by the Grey Hunters, and turning as it runs and firing both Bio-Cannons at the stomfang as it dives sideways. Two albino gargoyles flutter up behind it as it lands two penetrating hits despite the gunship jinking. Both are Immobilized results and one results in a Crash & Burn, which lands on the wounded Scythed Hierodule but doesn't kill it. Ouch.
The grey hunters charge the right flank Scythed Hierodule and manage to take a wound off it, but are then flattened wholesale by scything talons and a '6' stomp.
Turn 5
All three Hierodules move back down the field, the Barbed Hierodule firing at the Wolf Guard Terminators, killing one with biocannon fire, whilst the Scythed Hierodules used agile to dart forwards and douse the terminators in pyro-acid, killing all but one thunder hammer terminator
The Terminator advances to meet them.
Turn 6.
In a ridiculous display of overkill, three bio-titans shoot a single space wolf to death.
Results:
I realise I was lucky - killing the predator and half the long fangs on turn one, and shooting down the stormfang in one volley - but at the same time I never really felt that threatened. Toughness 8 with Feel No Pain is a scary thing when it means you largely ignore plasma fire.
The Scythed Hierodules were very scary. Hellstorm templates are huge - you don't realise quite how big until you get a shot with one on turn one, or wipe out most of a ten-man squad in a single shot. The ability to use agile to dart forwards, burn a unit 10-12" away and then use agile to fall back out of range of things like thunder hammer terminators or lychguard is very impressive.
I'm sure four knights would have been even scarier, but frankly the three bio-titans felt good enough.
One thing to note with Maelstrom of war games is that with 6 objectives, you can be fairly confident (about 2/3 of the time) that there's going to be a skyfire nexus somewhere, so if you can sieze that with the Barbed Hierodule, two bio-cannons with skyfire provide some serious flak.
krootman. wrote: Soo my road to the nova open officially started Yesterday morning, which means its list building time!
So after reading basic primer, my first idea is msu bugs, my thoughts on lictors lately is they have been fantastic, but I always wish I had more of them, and when you read nova missions malwocs seem underwhelming most of the time.
So here is my first draft of bugs for the nova open
Cad
Spoiler:
flyrant 240
Malenthrope 85
lictor 50
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 ripper swarm with deep strike 45
3 spore mines 15
Bunker with coms 75
This list has the ability to be whereever it wants, the -1 ld bonus deathleaper and his lictors provide will come in handy vs msu and I have some deep striking obsec that could come in handy from time to time.
I feel that you have way too many lictors. Lictors are effective, but only to a degree. I think your list is over-saturated with them and that isn't necessarily a good thing, especially if you opponent puts his objectives out in the open.
So in nova, all the objectives are preset (as of now anyways) and are either all in, or very close (within 3 inches) of cover. I agree I have a ton of lictors, but it sounds like kps will only be a 2ndary and it using lictors to bum rush weaker units in cc seems like a viable option, especially with the minus 1 ld buff deathleapers brood gives me. Vs say durcurion I would use the flyrants to shoot the spyders and wraiths and assault everything else with the lictors.
Of course this is all subject to testing, this is just a starting point for a potential nova list.
The current list is I am testing is Durcurion with corpsetheif claw.
Ok folks. I am still debating on what to take to the ATC 2015. The ATC is basically a team tournament consisting of 5 teammates and which there could be no repeat of any army, whether as primary, allies or a formation.
I'm down to 2 armies - either my Pentyrant Tyranids or my Centurionstar Grey Knight/Space Marines. So I've decided to let them duke it out to see who will be going with me.
1. Go Nids!
2. To be fair, wouldn't this test be more accurate after the new SM codex is out?
3. I'm looking forward to the ATC this year! Will fluffy bunnies be coming back, or are you with FLG?
Ive stepped back from nids while i get used to ad mech/ eldar hitting the scene. The next meta feels like it should push to msu to better handle the strength D and mass shooting from cult mechanicus so now, lictors and heirodules feel even more essential to a nid list. What else is there - other than FMC that we can do to counter this?
Wilson wrote: Ive stepped back from nids while i get used to ad mech/ eldar hitting the scene. The next meta feels like it should push to msu to better handle the strength D and mass shooting from cult mechanicus so now, lictors and heirodules feel even more essential to a nid list. What else is there - other than FMC that we can do to counter this?
I was also thinking about the new direction things have headed.
Does anyone else feel like anti infantry and light armour became vastly better over the last codex releases? Thus making the living artillery formation significantly more powerful.
Well - for Warhammer World Throne of Skulls, or similar, you know you're playing Maelstrom of War games only.
With a few exceptions, you need mobility and you're not bleeding kill points (too badly) for losing units, so a Skyblight force seems sensible.
Being in the sky remains the best way to avoid reaper chainswords and D-scythes alike, and pairs up with the fact that the Winged Hive Tyrant remains about the best thing going.
Tervigon-led swarms are always fun, but I think I'd want a couple of spores if I used them, to help get round their annoyingly low speed.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Quick question does mucloids count as troops, as for Nova secondary obj like mark for death and strike rank and files
They count for those 2ndaries, but its pretty easy to ds a mucloid in some random ass corner of the board to deny them rank and file. I actually cut down on the number of muclids I have taken because of how many maelstrom and 2ndary points I have scored off opposing players mucloids.
Hoping to get a game in this weekend against Grey Knights.
Opponent's rough list will be:
Inquisitor
ML3 Librarian
8 Terminators
8 Terminators
Purifiers in a Storm Raven
2 Dreadknights
some acolytes (warp charge battery)
I hope to run:
2 flyrants (devourers, egrubs)
2 zoanthropes
1 zoanthrope
1 venomthrope
3 rippers w/ds
30 gants (10 devourer, 20 fleshborer)
tervigon (shreddershard? I think?)
exocrine
2 mawloc
..along those lines anyway! I thought I'd try and get as many warp charge dice in there as I could hence the zoeys (plus... SitW seems like a good plan, hoping for psychic scream... did we lose access to BRB powers?).
Can anyone give me tactical advice or feedback on the list? I also have models for gaunt and genestealer blobs, a tyrannofex, and the LAN (but thought it might not shine in this matchup).
SonsofVulkan wrote: Quick question does mucloids count as troops, as for Nova secondary obj like mark for death and strike rank and files
They count for those 2ndaries, but its pretty easy to ds a mucloid in some random ass corner of the board to deny them rank and file. I actually cut down on the number of muclids I have taken because of how many maelstrom and 2ndary points I have scored off opposing players mucloids.
Doesn't the "Living Bomb" rule prevent mucolids from counting as a VP for any reason, as it does for spore mines?
So here's a question: in a mission where you get points for eliminating an entire slot off of the FOC, do you have to kill all Mucolids? For example in the ATC:
Players earn 1 (one) Kill Point per unit destroyed. 1 Kill Point per 3 hull points for super heavy vehicles and 1 KP per 3 wounds to gargantuan creatures. Players earn 1 Kill Point for each category of Battlefield Role (e.g., "HQ", "Troops", "Lord of War", ‘Host Detachment type,” etc.) completely eliminated. See notes for armies with alternate force organizations. The player with the most kill points at the end of the game wins this objective. If both players are tied this this is a draw.
Now if my troops are 2 Rippers and 3 Mucolids, does he get an extra point for just killing both Rippers, or must he kill Mucolids as well even though they don't count as KPs?
jifel wrote: So here's a question: in a mission where you get points for eliminating an entire slot off of the FOC, do you have to kill all Mucolids? For example in the ATC:
Players earn 1 (one) Kill Point per unit destroyed. 1 Kill Point per 3 hull points for super heavy vehicles and 1 KP per 3 wounds to gargantuan creatures. Players earn 1 Kill Point for each category of Battlefield Role (e.g., "HQ", "Troops", "Lord of War", ‘Host Detachment type,” etc.) completely eliminated. See notes for armies with alternate force organizations. The player with the most kill points at the end of the game wins this objective. If both players are tied this this is a draw.
Now if my troops are 2 Rippers and 3 Mucolids, does he get an extra point for just killing both Rippers, or must he kill Mucolids as well even though they don't count as KPs?
It came up when we tried to use those missions at our event. Well specifically, if you ran an army with nothing but mucolids as troops if the points for eliminating that FOC slot counted. I emailed the TO and this is his response:
"Models with the living bomb rule never surrender KP or Victory points of any kind and would not in this case either. They can also not be marked for death."
So I think, yes, he only has to kill the rippers.
My advice would be to drop the rippers from your army and run nothing but mucolids as troops. Use Lictors as scoring.
One of event, where you have to spilt up your armies list into 3 part.. I did put all mucolids in my 2nd part and give my opponent score no VP but opponents score for win the battle because I blew up all of my mucolids.. It was maelstrom mission and opponent fail to score any of maelstrom score!
Too bad for my opponents - i put all leftover unit for overkill and I got higher VP. And got 2nd place overall in the total. Heee hee.
Space wolf got 1st place... Drop pod spam. Tuh. Heh
SonsofVulkan wrote: Quick question does mucloids count as troops, as for Nova secondary obj like mark for death and strike rank and files
They count for those 2ndaries, but its pretty easy to ds a mucloid in some random ass corner of the board to deny them rank and file. I actually cut down on the number of muclids I have taken because of how many maelstrom and 2ndary points I have scored off opposing players mucloids.
Doesn't the "Living Bomb" rule prevent mucolids from counting as a VP for any reason, as it does for spore mines?
Depends what the event faq says, most events still rule they count for moment of bloodshed (Nova and killadephia, and when you have to kill a unit like in the lov missions)
Solidcrash wrote:Yes your right, spore don't count toward to VP.. Unless there are modified house rule..
You are right they dont count as vps, but can count towards achieving 2ndaries like marked for death, and slay the rank and file, which are player made 2ndaries that are not kps and not in the rulebook.
jifel wrote:So here's a question: in a mission where you get points for eliminating an entire slot off of the FOC, do you have to kill all Mucolids? For example in the ATC:
Players earn 1 (one) Kill Point per unit destroyed. 1 Kill Point per 3 hull points for super heavy vehicles and 1 KP per 3 wounds to gargantuan creatures. Players earn 1 Kill Point for each category of Battlefield Role (e.g., "HQ", "Troops", "Lord of War", ‘Host Detachment type,” etc.) completely eliminated. See notes for armies with alternate force organizations. The player with the most kill points at the end of the game wins this objective. If both players are tied this this is a draw.
Now if my troops are 2 Rippers and 3 Mucolids, does he get an extra point for just killing both Rippers, or must he kill Mucolids as well even though they don't count as KPs?
I have not read the atcfaq as I do not plan on attending this event, but I would say they dont count as kps as it specifically says in the rulebook they dont.
Bah! A good victory for the Marines but I would've though Nids had it.
Spoiler:
Well, Tyranids had it at the end of 5 and 6 if only the game would end, but Marines got lucky that the game went on to 7 and Tyranids just ran out of targets to kill.
Looks like both lists could use some tweaking for ATC. If you drop the 2 rippers for another Lictor and more mucolids you go down effectively 2 kill points, and wouldn't have given up so many in that mission. Of course the marines could have deathstarred up even more, and dropped their kill points by a ton if they wanted to.
You thought about using Coteaz to use his special rule "I See You Now"? and taking a couple of henchmen squads on the cheap?
Bugs and Cents are my two lists I am working on but I am having troubles deciding a chapter trait for my marines. I like to use Raptors and Issilon but I have not been using gate with the GK and that is a must. Part of my wonders about using smurfs and calling it a day. I wish Dark Angels (favorite chapter) had decent rules.
I did think how much fun it would be to gate around all of those plasma talons. To bad not enough multi wound characters in that black knight squad but you could at least get a standard 4++ with the field.
You thought about using Coteaz to use his special rule "I See You Now"? and taking a couple of henchmen squads on the cheap?
Bugs and Cents are my two lists I am working on but I am having troubles deciding a chapter trait for my marines. I like to use Raptors and Issilon but I have not been using gate with the GK and that is a must. Part of my wonders about using smurfs and calling it a day. I wish Dark Angels (favorite chapter) had decent rules.
I did think how much fun it would be to gate around all of those plasma talons. To bad not enough multi wound characters in that black knight squad but you could at least get a standard 4++ with the field.
Yes, I will be running Coteaz in my Centstar list now that the ITC allows for 3 detachments. However, in the ATC format, they only allow for 2 detachments so no Coteaz for them.
Looks like both lists could use some tweaking for ATC. If you drop the 2 rippers for another Lictor and more mucolids you go down effectively 2 kill points, and wouldn't have given up so many in that mission. Of course the marines could have deathstarred up even more, and dropped their kill points by a ton if they wanted to.
Yeah, it is just the start of my play-testing. I am sure I will make changes to my lists before the tournament.
BTW, dropping 2 rippers for 1 lector only reduces your KP by 1.
Yeah, the Centstar unit could even get bigger with another Lvl 3 GK Librarian and up to 2 more centurions! But I won't do that as it leaves my troops too weak. I will need to find that "sweet spot" of balance considering there are 4 Progressive missions and 2 VP ones.
BTW, dropping 2 rippers for 1 lector only reduces your KP by 1.
They have a rule that you get a bonus kill point if you eliminate a FOC role. If you change 2 units of Rippers to Mucolids you won't have any scoring "Troop" roles, and so there is no way for an opponent to get that bonus from you.
It is one of their mechanisms to discourage you from running a balanced list. As a Tyranid player, you are going to have HQ, and you are going to have Elites. But you can get away without Troops, LOW, and either Fast or Heavy.
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SonsofVulkan wrote: Yeah I'd drop cypher for another librarian for the extra WC.
I think the reason Cypher is in there is that the FAQ for ATC says you can't use GOI to get out of CC. But they report that FAQ is not current and will be replaced by the time of the event. But yeah, adding another Librarian would help that list out in many ways. We had a centstar on our team, and he was running 2 librarians.
Was a fast game, durcurion is a difficult enough match, but the corpsetheif takes away any hope of board control, we called it on turn 3.
So we began to discus different ways for nids to fix some bad match ups for nova, durcurion being one of the worst currently. First off the more I have used//played against mawlocs lately the more I feel they just don't do enough. The idea came that if we added obsec guants to the list then you can play the cumulative missions and take advantage of obsec.
We changed the list to the following
Cad//levi
5 flyrants, 3 20 man guant units, 2 deep striking rippers, 4 lictors, malenthrope, 3 mucloids
This time i ran normal durcurion to help my buddy test vs a more likely matchup, we called it on 5, but it was much closer then the previous match up, the obsec really gives bugs alot of play in nova missions. We also realized you can take an ally detachment as your 3rd source in nova format, which means we can ditch the levi cad and drop the mines. In formats like Killadelphia and nova they just bleed points and honestly are not worth it. The guants also help give the flyrants some board presence
You break it down this way because killing a detachment or source is a 2ndary in nova now.
So with the death of the wraithknight from competitive play, I really really like 5 flyrants, I think between 5 flyrants, and crons murdering tau, you are ok with the tau matchup.
We kept the lictors for things like thunderfires, d cannons, etc that can eat your guants. Lictors disrupt scoring on nova missions pretty well. Finally they are great for making sure your rippers dont scatter.
It needs more testing but I think it has alot of promise, it seems like a good starting point for the nova format. I do however want to try deathleaper brood somewhere down the line for nova format as well.
Took my Flying circus out against a pretty strong Newdar list yesterday.
The Newdar list looked like this:
Spoiler:
CAD:
Autarch w/ Bike + Shard of Anaris
6 x 5 Scat Bikes.
Crimson Hunter
Wraith Knight w/ Double D's
Seer Council:
Farseer w/ Bike
Farseer w/ Bike
5 Warlocks
We were playtesting the ITC missions. I thought that due to the ITC nerf to D I could get away with Null Deploy using a Bastion + Void Shield + Comms Relay to help me with reserves. I went 2nd. The Wraith Knight Killed my Bastion in 2 rounds of shooting. My opponent also had -1 to reserves as their warlord trait.
Reserves screwed me epically. Lots of stuff didn't come in until 4. It sucked.
I ended up killing all but 1 of the scat bikes, but The seer council only lost 1 warlock and the Wraith Knight was untouched. Meanwhile I ended with 1 Flyrant, 1 Crone, and 2 Lictors. I tied the EW, and won Maelstrom by 1. He got all 3 Tertiaries, so I won 4 to 3. I hate scat bikes so much, but I wasn't expecting the Seer council to be so dominant. They were casting 5-6 powers a turn, and denying every spell I tried to cast with their rerolls.
tag8833 wrote: Took my Flying circus out against a pretty strong Newdar list yesterday.
The Newdar list looked like this:
Spoiler:
CAD:
Autarch w/ Bike + Shard of Anaris
6 x 5 Scat Bikes.
Crimson Hunter
Wraith Knight w/ Double D's
Seer Council:
Farseer w/ Bike
Farseer w/ Bike
5 Warlocks
We were playtesting the ITC missions. I thought that due to the ITC nerf to D I could get away with Null Deploy using a Bastion + Void Shield + Comms Relay to help me with reserves. I went 2nd. The Wraith Knight Killed my Bastion in 2 rounds of shooting. My opponent also had -1 to reserves as their warlord trait.
Reserves screwed me epically. Lots of stuff didn't come in until 4. It sucked.
I ended up killing all but 1 of the scat bikes, but The seer council only lost 1 warlock and the Wraith Knight was untouched. Meanwhile I ended with 1 Flyrant, 1 Crone, and 2 Lictors. I tied the EW, and won Maelstrom by 1. He got all 3 Tertiaries, so I won 4 to 3. I hate scat bikes so much, but I wasn't expecting the Seer council to be so dominant. They were casting 5-6 powers a turn, and denying every spell I tried to cast with their rerolls.
If you think that's nasty, I played a Warhost last weekend that ran two Seerstars. Both were invisible and unkillable the whole game I swear! I did manage to win on tertiary after tieing primary and secondary, but even hitting on 6s he managed to Shriek two Horrified Flyrants to death and a TFex... Eldar psychic shenanigans are brutal. I got one power off all game!
tag8833 wrote: Took my Flying circus out against a pretty strong Newdar list yesterday.
The Newdar list looked like this:
Spoiler:
CAD:
Autarch w/ Bike + Shard of Anaris
6 x 5 Scat Bikes.
Crimson Hunter
Wraith Knight w/ Double D's
Seer Council:
Farseer w/ Bike
Farseer w/ Bike
5 Warlocks
We were playtesting the ITC missions. I thought that due to the ITC nerf to D I could get away with Null Deploy using a Bastion + Void Shield + Comms Relay to help me with reserves. I went 2nd. The Wraith Knight Killed my Bastion in 2 rounds of shooting. My opponent also had -1 to reserves as their warlord trait.
Reserves screwed me epically. Lots of stuff didn't come in until 4. It sucked.
I ended up killing all but 1 of the scat bikes, but The seer council only lost 1 warlock and the Wraith Knight was untouched. Meanwhile I ended with 1 Flyrant, 1 Crone, and 2 Lictors. I tied the EW, and won Maelstrom by 1. He got all 3 Tertiaries, so I won 4 to 3. I hate scat bikes so much, but I wasn't expecting the Seer council to be so dominant. They were casting 5-6 powers a turn, and denying every spell I tried to cast with their rerolls.
In testing, list building etc, scatter bikes have proven to not be as bad as everyone feared, it's the seers that will be a pain. With new runes and 3 plus to cast powers, the eldar player shouldn't have an issue getting a lot of his powers off.
Just finished 4-1 at the UK Games Expo in a VERY competitive field, overflowing with Eldar. Finished 5 the in the end, with the top 4 being Eldar,Eldar, WolfStar, Eldar.
My games were, Eldar, Astra Militarium, Tau, Imperial Knights, Astra Militarium.
jifel wrote: If you think that's nasty, I played a Warhost last weekend that ran two Seerstars. Both were invisible and unkillable the whole game I swear! I did manage to win on tertiary after tieing primary and secondary, but even hitting on 6s he managed to Shriek two Horrified Flyrants to death and a TFex... Eldar psychic shenanigans are brutal. I got one power off all game!
krootman. wrote: In testing, list building etc, scatter bikes have proven to not be as bad as everyone feared, it's the seers that will be a pain. With new runes and 3 plus to cast powers, the eldar player shouldn't have an issue getting a lot of his powers off.
What are you guys talking about? Scat bikes are 100% exactly what I expected. I've played them 4 times against nids and 3 times against Orks. Hands down they are the most game changing unit since I've been playing 40k. I would rather play nothing but seerstars 100% of the time. The main effect of the seer star was boosting the scat bikes, and debuffing my stuff if you take away the scat bikes they become laughably easy to beat at least in the missions I tend to play.
Unkillable stuff is a fun killer. Seerstar and Wraith Knights clearly count. But it is hyper-point-efficient, Super Shooting, Super mobile, Super Scoring scat bikes that have changed the face of 40k.
jifel wrote: If you think that's nasty, I played a Warhost last weekend that ran two Seerstars. Both were invisible and unkillable the whole game I swear! I did manage to win on tertiary after tieing primary and secondary, but even hitting on 6s he managed to Shriek two Horrified Flyrants to death and a TFex... Eldar psychic shenanigans are brutal. I got one power off all game!
krootman. wrote: In testing, list building etc, scatter bikes have proven to not be as bad as everyone feared, it's the seers that will be a pain. With new runes and 3 plus to cast powers, the eldar player shouldn't have an issue getting a lot of his powers off.
What are you guys talking about? Scat bikes are 100% exactly what I expected. I've played them 4 times against nids and 3 times against Orks. Hands down they are the most game changing unit since I've been playing 40k. I would rather play nothing but seerstars 100% of the time. The main effect of the seer star was boosting the scat bikes, and debuffing my stuff if you take away the scat bikes they become laughably easy to beat at least in the missions I tend to play.
Unkillable stuff is a fun killer. Seerstar and Wraith Knights clearly count. But it is hyper-point-efficient, Super Shooting, Super mobile, Super Scoring scat bikes that have changed the face of 40k.
Yes Scatbikes are good, and I must preface this by saying I haven't fought a Scatterbike heavy list, but they aren't 100% broken from what I have heard. They are just as fragile as before, whereas a Jetbike Seerstar is never going to fail a power vs Nids. So many dice passing on 3+ with rerolls is insane, and they can pretty much guarentee that they'll have fortune or invis, plus will have Conceal. I don't care about damage output nearly as much as I care about my ability to kill a unit. Jetbikes are the same as before with more guns and a small price bump. They are really good I'm sure, but in my two games vs NewDar I've been able to kill his Jetbikes. It's the seer stars that wouldn't die.
Hmm going by battlescribe it's a maximum of two...
Idk for sure though, I refuse to buy the Craftworlds Codex to give my DE a boost;.
One thing I do know is that they would be a unit as a whole (and can't leave) so if you deny one power(!) then your opponent can't attempt to manifest that same power again.
With regards to the Seer Council, I've had experience both playing as and against the Seer Council, and I must say that it is much better than I thought, especially if they get the right powers.
The configuration that I played against (and also that I run) is this:
Farseer Skyrunner - Shard of Anaris
Farseer Skyrunner
5x Jetlocks
Baharoth (either as CAD or as a Living Legends unit).
In 2 test games against Tyranids, they got both Invisibility and Fortune (ouch!)
So why is it so good?
1. With both Invis and Fortune, it is nigh impossible to kill. Best to just ignore it and focus on the rest of the army.
2. It is extremely reliable in casting it's powers.
3. It also has a very good chance to stop any of your crucial powers with 2 re-rollable Deny attempts (1 per farseer). It can shut-down (or at the very least, greatly impede) other psychic armies.
4. You cannot kill it. With Baharroth, you can't even lock it in combat due to his Hit-&-Run.
Yes, it cannot split up (other than Baharroth). However, it doesn't really need to. With essentially a 48" move per turn, you use it to deny multiple objectives. This makes it really good in denying ITC Maelstrom Secondary objectives unless you have ObSec units. Also, while it can't do anything to flyers (flyrants), it can still dominate by killing everything else on the ground. Protect/jinx is pretty handy in making a unit easier to kill by lowering its Armor save. Malanthrope protection is negated by Reveal so that the rest of the Eldar army can bypass our 2+ cover. The seer council is really, really good not as a purely offensive machine, but as a board control unit and force-multiplier for the army.
In the 2 games I played (Eldar vs Nids), we split the games 1-1. Nids won one game by killing the rest of the Eldar army. Then the psychic deathstar had to split off Baharroth on T5 to go for objectives. The game then went onto T6 and bugs were then able to tie up the deathstar with 2 flyrants (though they did lose 1 flyrant in the assault).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frozocrone wrote: Hmm going by battlescribe it's a maximum of two...
Idk for sure though, I refuse to buy the Craftworlds Codex to give my DE a boost;.
One thing I do know is that they would be a unit as a whole (and can't leave) so if you deny one power(!) then your opponent can't attempt to manifest that same power again.
You can get more than 2 farseers very easily. You need another 1 farseer if you are running the Windrider Host detachment, or you can get it by running a normal CAD along with the seer council.
Yeah, not being able to leave the unit makes the seer council slightly easier to handle, but not by much. It can still contest multiple objectives at a time.
tag8833 wrote: Took my Flying circus out against a pretty strong Newdar list yesterday.
The Newdar list looked like this:
Spoiler:
CAD:
Autarch w/ Bike + Shard of Anaris
6 x 5 Scat Bikes.
Crimson Hunter
Wraith Knight w/ Double D's
Seer Council:
Farseer w/ Bike
Farseer w/ Bike
5 Warlocks
We were playtesting the ITC missions. I thought that due to the ITC nerf to D I could get away with Null Deploy using a Bastion + Void Shield + Comms Relay to help me with reserves. I went 2nd. The Wraith Knight Killed my Bastion in 2 rounds of shooting. My opponent also had -1 to reserves as their warlord trait.
Reserves screwed me epically. Lots of stuff didn't come in until 4. It sucked.
I ended up killing all but 1 of the scat bikes, but The seer council only lost 1 warlock and the Wraith Knight was untouched. Meanwhile I ended with 1 Flyrant, 1 Crone, and 2 Lictors. I tied the EW, and won Maelstrom by 1. He got all 3 Tertiaries, so I won 4 to 3. I hate scat bikes so much, but I wasn't expecting the Seer council to be so dominant. They were casting 5-6 powers a turn, and denying every spell I tried to cast with their rerolls.
Yeah, that's pretty much how it goes against that type of seer council list (Seer Council + CAD). Really, you can't do much against the council itself and the WK. The best way to beat them, though, is to just go after their fast troops. These types of battles usually end up being very close battles if you target prioritze correctly.
tag8833 wrote: Took my Flying circus out against a pretty strong Newdar list yesterday.
The Newdar list looked like this:
Spoiler:
CAD:
Autarch w/ Bike + Shard of Anaris
6 x 5 Scat Bikes.
Crimson Hunter
Wraith Knight w/ Double D's
Seer Council:
Farseer w/ Bike
Farseer w/ Bike
5 Warlocks
We were playtesting the ITC missions. I thought that due to the ITC nerf to D I could get away with Null Deploy using a Bastion + Void Shield + Comms Relay to help me with reserves. I went 2nd. The Wraith Knight Killed my Bastion in 2 rounds of shooting. My opponent also had -1 to reserves as their warlord trait.
Reserves screwed me epically. Lots of stuff didn't come in until 4. It sucked.
I ended up killing all but 1 of the scat bikes, but The seer council only lost 1 warlock and the Wraith Knight was untouched. Meanwhile I ended with 1 Flyrant, 1 Crone, and 2 Lictors. I tied the EW, and won Maelstrom by 1. He got all 3 Tertiaries, so I won 4 to 3. I hate scat bikes so much, but I wasn't expecting the Seer council to be so dominant. They were casting 5-6 powers a turn, and denying every spell I tried to cast with their rerolls.
If you think that's nasty, I played a Warhost last weekend that ran two Seerstars. Both were invisible and unkillable the whole game I swear! I did manage to win on tertiary after tieing primary and secondary, but even hitting on 6s he managed to Shriek two Horrified Flyrants to death and a TFex... Eldar psychic shenanigans are brutal. I got one power off all game!
Fortunately for competitive play, most of the larger tournaments only allow for 0-1 of each formation/detachment so you won't see too many double-seer councils (unless it is a seer council formation + farseers and a warlock conclave pseudo-seer council from normal CAD or the Windrider Host detachment).
But with that said, I don't think that dual-seer councils is necessarily better. Good luck playing against 60 ObSec marines in drop pods or the Culexus for the double-seer player. Rather, I think 1 seer council and a more balanced Eldar build is much better as a TAC Eldar build.
Eldercaveman wrote: Just finished 4-1 at the UK Games Expo in a VERY competitive field, overflowing with Eldar. Finished 5 the in the end, with the top 4 being Eldar,Eldar, WolfStar, Eldar.
My games were, Eldar, Astra Militarium, Tau, Imperial Knights, Astra Militarium.
Would love to hear a brief summary of your games.
Yeah, you're going to see Eldar dominate the tournament field even more than they did before with serpent-spam IMO.
jifel wrote: If you think that's nasty, I played a Warhost last weekend that ran two Seerstars. Both were invisible and unkillable the whole game I swear! I did manage to win on tertiary after tieing primary and secondary, but even hitting on 6s he managed to Shriek two Horrified Flyrants to death and a TFex... Eldar psychic shenanigans are brutal. I got one power off all game!
krootman. wrote: In testing, list building etc, scatter bikes have proven to not be as bad as everyone feared, it's the seers that will be a pain. With new runes and 3 plus to cast powers, the eldar player shouldn't have an issue getting a lot of his powers off.
What are you guys talking about? Scat bikes are 100% exactly what I expected. I've played them 4 times against nids and 3 times against Orks. Hands down they are the most game changing unit since I've been playing 40k. I would rather play nothing but seerstars 100% of the time. The main effect of the seer star was boosting the scat bikes, and debuffing my stuff if you take away the scat bikes they become laughably easy to beat at least in the missions I tend to play.
Unkillable stuff is a fun killer. Seerstar and Wraith Knights clearly count. But it is hyper-point-efficient, Super Shooting, Super mobile, Super Scoring scat bikes that have changed the face of 40k.
I will say this. Both scatterbikes and the seer council are grade-A a$$hole units to play against. While the seer council IMO has gotten slightly better (they were already very good before), the scatterbikes have gotten better by leaps and bounds. Yes, the scatterbikes are killable, but if even 1 biker lives til Turn 5, then he still has the potential to single-handedly win the Eldar player the game. They (the scatterbikes) MUST die at all costs. The seer council is just a glorified (though very effective) distraction unit. The scatterbikes are the ones who will win you the game in most cases.
krootman. wrote: So my buddies and I did some nova testing today, First game was my Necron (durcurion) dark eldar list (corpse theif claw) vs bugs
Was a fast game, durcurion is a difficult enough match, but the corpsetheif takes away any hope of board control, we called it on turn 3.
So we began to discus different ways for nids to fix some bad match ups for nova, durcurion being one of the worst currently. First off the more I have used//played against mawlocs lately the more I feel they just don't do enough. The idea came that if we added obsec guants to the list then you can play the cumulative missions and take advantage of obsec.
We changed the list to the following
Cad//levi
5 flyrants, 3 20 man guant units, 2 deep striking rippers, 4 lictors, malenthrope, 3 mucloids
This time i ran normal durcurion to help my buddy test vs a more likely matchup, we called it on 5, but it was much closer then the previous match up, the obsec really gives bugs alot of play in nova missions. We also realized you can take an ally detachment as your 3rd source in nova format, which means we can ditch the levi cad and drop the mines. In formats like Killadelphia and nova they just bleed points and honestly are not worth it. The guants also help give the flyrants some board presence
You break it down this way because killing a detachment or source is a 2ndary in nova now.
So with the death of the wraithknight from competitive play, I really really like 5 flyrants, I think between 5 flyrants, and crons murdering tau, you are ok with the tau matchup.
We kept the lictors for things like thunderfires, d cannons, etc that can eat your guants. Lictors disrupt scoring on nova missions pretty well. Finally they are great for making sure your rippers dont scatter.
It needs more testing but I think it has alot of promise, it seems like a good starting point for the nova format. I do however want to try deathleaper brood somewhere down the line for nova format as well.
I like where you're going with all those ObSec bodies. With the new Necrons and with the trend veering away from ObSec, this may be the return of the troop tervigon or just massed ObSec Tyranid troops.
I'm going to have to re-evaluate my Nova list very carefully, but probably not until after the ATC. Just a couple of notes:
1. Unfortunately, not all tournament formats (i.e. the ITC) allows for dual CAD and so we are stuck with non-ObSec troops for Leviathan.
2. Your 3x20 list is lacking in backfield Synapse IMO. Most of the time, flyrants will be too far forwards and relying on only 1 Malanthrope might by a recipe for disaster against certain armies. I would consider dropping 1 lictor and some gants to try to fit in a 2nd, separate Malanthrope.
3. I still shudder when going up against Decurion, especially if they spam Flayed Ones. Those FO's will go through our hordes like a hot knife through butter.
BTW, dropping 2 rippers for 1 lector only reduces your KP by 1.
They have a rule that you get a bonus kill point if you eliminate a FOC role. If you change 2 units of Rippers to Mucolids you won't have any scoring "Troop" roles, and so there is no way for an opponent to get that bonus from you.
It is one of their mechanisms to discourage you from running a balanced list. As a Tyranid player, you are going to have HQ, and you are going to have Elites. But you can get away without Troops, LOW, and either Fast or Heavy.
Interesting. I overlooked that rule.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Yeah I'd drop cypher for another librarian for the extra WC.
Cypher also provides Shrouding for the unit. Plus, I can split him off and he is highly effective at taking out MSU units.
Basically, I am trying to build the list to rely less on psychic powers. Instead of having to cast Shroud for cover or Gate to get out of combat, now I don't need to risk those powers failing to go off or being denied. And if I fail H-&-R, well, there is always Gate to fall back on.
Oh, and BTW, Cypher is a F-U to the Culexus. Hah, I get cover to your AP2 shooting and you can't lock me up in combat.
I was testing the termagant blobs with Krootman, and I agree the 3x20 needs dual malanthropes. Unfortunately NOVA restricts FW to 0-1 units. I think 2 x 20 termagant squads can have the desired effect and still function with one malanthrope. Tthrowing dominion on a tyrant if need be is also an option.
This idea came about when trying to crack decurion with pure Tyranids. Still working on that puzzle.....
tag8833 wrote:
What are you guys talking about? Scat bikes are 100% exactly what I expected. I've played them 4 times against nids and 3 times against Orks. Hands down they are the most game changing unit since I've been playing 40k. I would rather play nothing but seerstars 100% of the time. The main effect of the seer star was boosting the scat bikes, and debuffing my stuff if you take away the scat bikes they become laughably easy to beat at least in the missions I tend to play.
Unkillable stuff is a fun killer. Seerstar and Wraith Knights clearly count. But it is hyper-point-efficient, Super Shooting, Super mobile, Super Scoring scat bikes that have changed the face of 40k.
So scatter bikes are no different, then drone star, i knights with reroll invs, flying hive tyrants etc, just a really really good unit, the difference is they are already being figured out and are not living up to the hype. The issue with scatter bikes, is with out wks they really don't give you any kind of board control. Even with jet seer star in the list (which lost fleet btw, so they are not as good at multi charging as they were before) they can't establish any form of board control because they die when looked at. Especially when you have 3-5 flying tyrants.
I really don't think you will see as much eldar dominance as you think. I have been conferring with alot of other top eldar players and tbh most have switched to other armies. Thats not to say they are not good, just saying in my, and some others opinion, they are not as ultra competitive as the old book was.
jy2 wrote:
I like where you're going with all those ObSec bodies. With the new Necrons and with the trend veering away from ObSec, this may be the return of the troop tervigon or just massed ObSec Tyranid troops.
I'm going to have to re-evaluate my Nova list very carefully, but probably not until after the ATC. Just a couple of notes:
1. Unfortunately, not all tournament formats (i.e. the ITC) allows for dual CAD and so we are stuck with non-ObSec troops for Leviathan.
2. Your 3x20 list is lacking in backfield Synapse IMO. Most of the time, flyrants will be too far forwards and relying on only 1 Malanthrope might by a recipe for disaster against certain armies. I would consider dropping 1 lictor and some gants to try to fit in a 2nd, separate Malanthrope.
3. I still shudder when going up against Decurion, especially if they spam Flayed Ones. Those FO's will go through our hordes like a hot knife through butter.
1) yea we are just testing nova format as that's the next large gt we are playing.
2)So with 5 flyrants being able to cast dominion (LOLOLOL IT FINALLY HAS A USE) and a malenthrope I don't think there should be an issue, however there are cheap synpase options if it becomes an issue.
3) Honestly flayed ones are not the worst vs bugs, units of 3 wriaths with scarab backup shred through guants just as quickly as flayed ones accept they are faster.
We considered the troop terv, but it just cost too many points for what it brings, it also dies just as easily as a malwoc and the squishyness of a malwoc was the reason we cut them in the first place.
997Turbo wrote:I was testing the termagant blobs with Krootman, and I agree the 3x20 needs dual malanthropes. Unfortunately NOVA restricts FW to 0-1 units. I think 2 x 20 termagant squads can have the desired effect and still function with one malanthrope. Tthrowing dominion on a tyrant if need be is also an option.
This idea came about when trying to crack decurion with pure Tyranids. Still working on that puzzle.....
Hahaha Hi dallas, didnt know your user name on here whoops. I think im going to pick up a 5th tyrant this week and take this list out for a spin as well.
tag8833 wrote:
What are you guys talking about? Scat bikes are 100% exactly what I expected. I've played them 4 times against nids and 3 times against Orks. Hands down they are the most game changing unit since I've been playing 40k. I would rather play nothing but seerstars 100% of the time. The main effect of the seer star was boosting the scat bikes, and debuffing my stuff if you take away the scat bikes they become laughably easy to beat at least in the missions I tend to play.
Unkillable stuff is a fun killer. Seerstar and Wraith Knights clearly count. But it is hyper-point-efficient, Super Shooting, Super mobile, Super Scoring scat bikes that have changed the face of 40k.
So scatter bikes are no different, then drone star, i knights with reroll invs, flying hive tyrants etc, just a really really good unit, the difference is they are already being figured out and are not living up to the hype. The issue with scatter bikes, is with out wks they really don't give you any kind of board control. Even with jet seer star in the list (which lost fleet btw, so they are not as good at multi charging as they were before) they can't establish any form of board control because they die when looked at. Especially when you have 3-5 flying tyrants.
I really don't think you will see as much eldar dominance as you think. I have been conferring with alot of other top eldar players and tbh most have switched to other armies. Thats not to say they are not good, just saying in my, and some others opinion, they are not as ultra competitive as the old book was.
It really isn't fair to compare the likes of the jetbike to units like deathstars, Imperial Knights and flyrants. Scatterbikes aren't meant to be super-resilient mini-deathstars nor are they meant to even remotely suggested to take their place. Rather, they were meant (or designed) to be a vulnerable, guerilla-tactic unit that you have to protect but who can also win you the game if played properly. They aren't as great in Progressive-style missions where they have to expose themselves each turn (for that, dires in ObSec wave serpents would be the better choice), but they are just deadly in Eternal War missions where they can play the waiting game until Turn 5. Plus, it is only 51-81-pts for a unit of 3 and 3 is all you really need. For that price, they are really, really good, especially if you use them in the role that they were designed to play.
It's just that, fortunately for us bug players, we have the perfect tool to deal with the scatterbikes. Other armies? Maybe not as fortunate.
As for "top Eldar players" switching armies, that isn't necessarily due to the new Eldar codex not being as competitive as before. When the new Decurion Necrons came out, I sort of stopped playing them for a while (at least not competitively) because I didn't think they were as competitive as they were in the previous edition. Now look at how much Necrons are flourishing in tournament play. The new Eldar are still just that - very new. I think that the UK Games Expo (the one where Eldercaveman just went to) is a better indication of how well Eldar will be doing once the very good players start running them competitively. BTW, Eldar went 1st, 2nd and 4th over there.
jy2 wrote:I like where you're going with all those ObSec bodies. With the new Necrons and with the trend veering away from ObSec, this may be the return of the troop tervigon or just massed ObSec Tyranid troops.
I'm going to have to re-evaluate my Nova list very carefully, but probably not until after the ATC. Just a couple of notes:
1. Unfortunately, not all tournament formats (i.e. the ITC) allows for dual CAD and so we are stuck with non-ObSec troops for Leviathan.
2. Your 3x20 list is lacking in backfield Synapse IMO. Most of the time, flyrants will be too far forwards and relying on only 1 Malanthrope might by a recipe for disaster against certain armies. I would consider dropping 1 lictor and some gants to try to fit in a 2nd, separate Malanthrope.
3. I still shudder when going up against Decurion, especially if they spam Flayed Ones. Those FO's will go through our hordes like a hot knife through butter.
1) yea we are just testing nova format as that's the next large gt we are playing.
2)So with 5 flyrants being able to cast dominion (LOLOLOL IT FINALLY HAS A USE) and a malenthrope I don't think there should be an issue, however there are cheap synpase options if it becomes an issue.
3) Honestly flayed ones are not the worst vs bugs, units of 3 wriaths with scarab backup shred through guants just as quickly as flayed ones accept they are faster.
We considered the troop terv, but it just cost too many points for what it brings, it also dies just as easily as a malwoc and the squishyness of a malwoc was the reason we cut them in the first place.
FO-spam is a very competitive Necron build (like Flesh Hound spam). IMO, it's even better than wraithspam Necrons, and this is coming from someone who has been playing wraithspam ever since 5th Edition to now. The Canoptek Harvest formation costs you about 370-pts for 1 spider, 3 scarabs and 6 wraiths with whip coils. A unit of 20 FO's only costs 260-pts but puts out a heck a of better punch than the wraiths in CC. Where wraiths have the edge is the speed, the ability to punch through AV11+ vehicles (FO's will easily glance AV10 vehicles to death) and the ability to hurt super-tough units like wraithknights. Where FO's outshine wraiths is in pure offense (100 attacks on the charge vs 24 for the wraiths), better resiliency to low AP weaponry, no single point of failure (kill the spider and the wraiths lose RP) and of course, they are cheaper, thus allowing you to get more into the army. BTW, in the ITC format, you can't spam the Canoptek Harvest formation due to the 0-1 limitations on all formations/detachments, but you can spam FO's because it is considered a detachment unit as opposed to a detachment formation.
jy2 wrote:I like where you're going with all those ObSec bodies. With the new Necrons and with the trend veering away from ObSec, this may be the return of the troop tervigon or just massed ObSec Tyranid troops.
I'm going to have to re-evaluate my Nova list very carefully, but probably not until after the ATC. Just a couple of notes:
1. Unfortunately, not all tournament formats (i.e. the ITC) allows for dual CAD and so we are stuck with non-ObSec troops for Leviathan.
2. Your 3x20 list is lacking in backfield Synapse IMO. Most of the time, flyrants will be too far forwards and relying on only 1 Malanthrope might by a recipe for disaster against certain armies. I would consider dropping 1 lictor and some gants to try to fit in a 2nd, separate Malanthrope.
3. I still shudder when going up against Decurion, especially if they spam Flayed Ones. Those FO's will go through our hordes like a hot knife through butter.
1) yea we are just testing nova format as that's the next large gt we are playing.
2)So with 5 flyrants being able to cast dominion (LOLOLOL IT FINALLY HAS A USE) and a malenthrope I don't think there should be an issue, however there are cheap synpase options if it becomes an issue.
3) Honestly flayed ones are not the worst vs bugs, units of 3 wriaths with scarab backup shred through guants just as quickly as flayed ones accept they are faster.
We considered the troop terv, but it just cost too many points for what it brings, it also dies just as easily as a malwoc and the squishyness of a malwoc was the reason we cut them in the first place.
FO-spam is a very competitive Necron build (like Flesh Hound spam). IMO, it's even better than wraithspam Necrons, and this is coming from someone who has been playing wraithspam ever since 5th Edition to now. The Canoptek Harvest formation costs you about 370-pts for 1 spider, 3 scarabs and 6 wraiths with whip coils. A unit of 20 FO's only costs 260-pts but puts out a heck a of better punch than the wraiths in CC. Where wraiths have the edge is the speed, the ability to punch through AV11+ vehicles (FO's will easily glance AV10 vehicles to death) and the ability to hurt super-tough units like wraithknights. Where FO's outshine wraiths is in pure offense (100 attacks on the charge vs 24 for the wraiths), better resiliency to low AP weaponry, no single point of failure (kill the spider and the wraiths lose RP) and of course, they are cheaper, thus allowing you to get more into the army. BTW, in the ITC format, you can't spam the Canoptek Harvest formation due to the 0-1 limitations on all formations/detachments, but you can spam FO's because it is considered a detachment unit as opposed to a detachment formation.
I must admit I have yet to play against Flayed Ones (ever...) but I feel like their reduced toughness compared to Wraiths is their drawback. Yes, a full health unit inflicts more casualties, but your chances of getting a full health unit on are very low. This is a Tyranid thread, so as a Nid player I'm much more afraid of Wraiths. After all, why not just use our huge amount of ap 4 weapons to thin that herd? Biovores Crones and Tyrannofexen should all inflict massive casualties (by Decurion standards) on Flayed ones, whereas we have no units that can efficiently target wraiths. Plus, wraiths are much faster and so we will struggle to avoid them reaching us in Close combat, and they can react much better to our speed.
I must admit I have yet to play against Flayed Ones (ever...) but I feel like their reduced toughness compared to Wraiths is their drawback. Yes, a full health unit inflicts more casualties, but your chances of getting a full health unit on are very low. This is a Tyranid thread, so as a Nid player I'm much more afraid of Wraiths. After all, why not just use our huge amount of ap 4 weapons to thin that herd? Biovores Crones and Tyrannofexen should all inflict massive casualties (by Decurion standards) on Flayed ones, whereas we have no units that can efficiently target wraiths. Plus, wraiths are much faster and so we will struggle to avoid them reaching us in Close combat, and they can react much better to our speed.
Oh, man, I've played against FO-spam and they are tough as sh*t to deal with. 4+ save backed up by 4+ RP means that each guy has a 75% chance to survive your firepower. That means 1 flyrant will only kill 2 FO's a turn. 2 only! Now imagine facing 3x15 of those f*ckers. FO's just give Necrons such dominant board control it isn't even funny! Infiltrate onto/near objectives and then move onto them and laugh as we struggle to get them off. Also, you can't tarpit them as they will go through any of our gribblies so fast it isn't even funny. They will also easily kill any of our MC that does not have a 2+ save with relative ease. It will be because of Necrons where you will see the return of the Tyranids of old - tervigons, gribblies, biovores and the Living Artillery Node.
Of course in a balanced Necron list, I could run 1 Canoptek Harvest formation and 2 units of FO's to get the best of both worlds.
I must admit I have yet to play against Flayed Ones (ever...) but I feel like their reduced toughness compared to Wraiths is their drawback. Yes, a full health unit inflicts more casualties, but your chances of getting a full health unit on are very low. This is a Tyranid thread, so as a Nid player I'm much more afraid of Wraiths. After all, why not just use our huge amount of ap 4 weapons to thin that herd? Biovores Crones and Tyrannofexen should all inflict massive casualties (by Decurion standards) on Flayed ones, whereas we have no units that can efficiently target wraiths. Plus, wraiths are much faster and so we will struggle to avoid them reaching us in Close combat, and they can react much better to our speed.
Oh, man, I've played against FO-spam and they are tough as sh*t to deal with. 4+ save backed up by 4+ RP means that each guy has a 75% chance to survive your firepower. That means 1 flyrant will only kill 2 FO's a turn. 2 only! Now imagine facing 3x15 of those f*ckers. FO's just give Necrons such dominant board control it isn't even funny! Infiltrate onto/near objectives and then move onto them and laugh as we struggle to get them off. Also, you can't tarpit them as they will go through any of our gribblies so fast it isn't even funny. They will also easily kill any of our MC that does not have a 2+ save with relative ease. It will be because of Necrons where you will see the return of the Tyranids of old - tervigons, gribblies, biovores and the Living Artillery Node.
Of course in a balanced Necron list, I could run 1 Canoptek Harvest formation and 2 units of FO's to get the best of both worlds.
A very interesting Necron meta you have! Over here in the Sunshine state, the most successful Necron builds have been based arround Destroyer Cults and one Wraith formation. And while I can understand why Flayed Ones are dangerous, I feel Nids have enough AP 4 weapons to actually hurt massed Flayed Ones pretty badly. I know if I saw 3x15 I would drop a TFex by one and throw two Crones at the other... Enough ap 4 and they will fall!
I must admit I have yet to play against Flayed Ones (ever...) but I feel like their reduced toughness compared to Wraiths is their drawback. Yes, a full health unit inflicts more casualties, but your chances of getting a full health unit on are very low. This is a Tyranid thread, so as a Nid player I'm much more afraid of Wraiths. After all, why not just use our huge amount of ap 4 weapons to thin that herd? Biovores Crones and Tyrannofexen should all inflict massive casualties (by Decurion standards) on Flayed ones, whereas we have no units that can efficiently target wraiths. Plus, wraiths are much faster and so we will struggle to avoid them reaching us in Close combat, and they can react much better to our speed.
Oh, man, I've played against FO-spam and they are tough as sh*t to deal with. 4+ save backed up by 4+ RP means that each guy has a 75% chance to survive your firepower. That means 1 flyrant will only kill 2 FO's a turn. 2 only! Now imagine facing 3x15 of those f*ckers. FO's just give Necrons such dominant board control it isn't even funny! Infiltrate onto/near objectives and then move onto them and laugh as we struggle to get them off. Also, you can't tarpit them as they will go through any of our gribblies so fast it isn't even funny. They will also easily kill any of our MC that does not have a 2+ save with relative ease. It will be because of Necrons where you will see the return of the Tyranids of old - tervigons, gribblies, biovores and the Living Artillery Node.
Of course in a balanced Necron list, I could run 1 Canoptek Harvest formation and 2 units of FO's to get the best of both worlds.
A very interesting Necron meta you have! Over here in the Sunshine state, the most successful Necron builds have been based arround Destroyer Cults and one Wraith formation. And while I can understand why Flayed Ones are dangerous, I feel Nids have enough AP 4 weapons to actually hurt massed Flayed Ones pretty badly. I know if I saw 3x15 I would drop a TFex by one and throw two Crones at the other... Enough ap 4 and they will fall!
Initially, I started off running the Canoptek Formation + Destroyer Cult (the DC is very common here as well). Now, I'm in the process of switching over my wraiths to FO's (working on my FO's). They are a lot harder to kill than I thought. I had a game where I went after 1 unit of 18 FO's with 3-4 flyrants, 2 hive crones and 2 harpies with stranglethorn cannons (this was 2500). I thought I would easily wipe them out, but after all of my shooting, I managed to to kill only half the unit. To be fair, the Necron player rolled above-average on his RP rolls, but it is just crazy how good they are in the Decurion even when you've got weapons that ignore their saves.
Mark my words. FO's aren't as common as wraiths, but IMO, they are potentially better. They don't have a chokepoint like the spider for the wraiths. You drop a few FO's and they are still very dangerous. You drop a couple of wraiths and then their offense goes down tremendously. If it is purely 20 FO's (260-pts) vs 6 whip coil wraiths (258-pts), I'd go with the FO's any day. That's how good I think they are.
Really happy to hear that, the #1 power gamer switched to Ncerons after his Heldrake spam list got trashed by Necrons. He's going with Canoptek Harvest and Annilation formation and completely disregarded Flayed Ones (even brings a Nightscythe but the Necron ground force is so good you don't even need AA).
Spyder is eh without reanimation, when playing Orks I just chuck a bunch of die at it and it's removed after the end of wounds. Same with Nids.
tag8833 wrote:
What are you guys talking about? Scat bikes are 100% exactly what I expected. I've played them 4 times against nids and 3 times against Orks. Hands down they are the most game changing unit since I've been playing 40k. I would rather play nothing but seerstars 100% of the time. The main effect of the seer star was boosting the scat bikes, and debuffing my stuff if you take away the scat bikes they become laughably easy to beat at least in the missions I tend to play.
Unkillable stuff is a fun killer. Seerstar and Wraith Knights clearly count. But it is hyper-point-efficient, Super Shooting, Super mobile, Super Scoring scat bikes that have changed the face of 40k.
So scatter bikes are no different, then drone star, i knights with reroll invs, flying hive tyrants etc, just a really really good unit, the difference is they are already being figured out and are not living up to the hype. The issue with scatter bikes, is with out wks they really don't give you any kind of board control. Even with jet seer star in the list (which lost fleet btw, so they are not as good at multi charging as they were before) they can't establish any form of board control because they die when looked at. Especially when you have 3-5 flying tyrants.
I really don't think you will see as much eldar dominance as you think. I have been conferring with alot of other top eldar players and tbh most have switched to other armies. Thats not to say they are not good, just saying in my, and some others opinion, they are not as ultra competitive as the old book was.
It really isn't fair to compare the likes of the jetbike to units like deathstars, Imperial Knights and flyrants. Scatterbikes aren't meant to be super-resilient mini-deathstars nor are they meant to even remotely suggested to take their place. Rather, they were meant (or designed) to be a vulnerable, guerilla-tactic unit that you have to protect but who can also win you the game if played properly. They aren't as great in Progressive-style missions where they have to expose themselves each turn (for that, dires in ObSec wave serpents would be the better choice), but they are just deadly in Eternal War missions where they can play the waiting game until Turn 5. Plus, it is only 51-81-pts for a unit of 3 and 3 is all you really need. For that price, they are really, really good, especially if you use them in the role that they were designed to play.
It's just that, fortunately for us bug players, we have the perfect tool to deal with the scatterbikes. Other armies? Maybe not as fortunate.
As for "top Eldar players" switching armies, that isn't necessarily due to the new Eldar codex not being as competitive as before. When the new Decurion Necrons came out, I sort of stopped playing them for a while (at least not competitively) because I didn't think they were as competitive as they were in the previous edition. Now look at how much Necrons are flourishing in tournament play. The new Eldar are still just that - very new. I think that the UK Games Expo (the one where Eldercaveman just went to) is a better indication of how well Eldar will be doing once the very good players start running them competitively. BTW, Eldar went 1st, 2nd and 4th over there.
At the Expo, it was alot of top players switching TOO Eldar, and not the other way round. The players who finished 1 and 2, were previously known for their Farsight bomb, Necrons and Daemons around here. They also drew their last game against each other on top table their list's were roughly
1st Place
2 Farseer
4 medium sized units of scatter bikes
Wraithknight
2 squads of spiders
1 Hawks
4 D Cannon battery's
Mission - Kill Points Deployment - Vanguard
First Turn - Eldar
I deploy my Venomthrope in a Bastion which was in my deployment area, with 4 Hive Tyrants behind it, Mucoloids all deploy out of sight, everything else in reserve.
He moves around his skimmers to get line of sight on to my Flyrants, his Nightspinner immobilise itself in a ruins.
Eldar get perfect timing off on the Lynx and guide on one of the Hornets.
I messed up with my deployment, thinking he had the hellstorm torrent Lynx, my mistake which costs me 2 Flyrants, the bastion and my Venomthrope, 1 Flyrant loses 3 wounds and one is untouched by the end of his shooting.
My first turn I fly off the untouched Flyrant, to guarentee I have some reserves Turn 2! My wounded flyrant goes super aggresive up the field, and puts catalyst on himself, before dropping a hornet.
His turn 2 is entire army unloads into my 1 wound Flyrant, and between jink saves and FNP I don't take a single wound
After this point my memory is a bit blurred, but I think all my reserves come on and proceed to take down his easy skimmers. and only lose one more unit for the whole game, I think it was the third Flyrant.
jy2 wrote:
It really isn't fair to compare the likes of the jetbike to units like deathstars, Imperial Knights and flyrants. Scatterbikes aren't meant to be super-resilient mini-deathstars nor are they meant to even remotely suggested to take their place. Rather, they were meant (or designed) to be a vulnerable, guerilla-tactic unit that you have to protect but who can also win you the game if played properly. They aren't as great in Progressive-style missions where they have to expose themselves each turn (for that, dires in ObSec wave serpents would be the better choice), but they are just deadly in Eternal War missions where they can play the waiting game until Turn 5. Plus, it is only 51-81-pts for a unit of 3 and 3 is all you really need. For that price, they are really, really good, especially if you use them in the role that they were designed to play.
It's just that, fortunately for us bug players, we have the perfect tool to deal with the scatterbikes. Other armies? Maybe not as fortunate.
As for "top Eldar players" switching armies, that isn't necessarily due to the new Eldar codex not being as competitive as before. When the new Decurion Necrons came out, I sort of stopped playing them for a while (at least not competitively) because I didn't think they were as competitive as they were in the previous edition. Now look at how much Necrons are flourishing in tournament play. The new Eldar are still just that - very new. I think that the UK Games Expo (the one where Eldercaveman just went to) is a better indication of how well Eldar will be doing once the very good players start running them competitively. BTW, Eldar went 1st, 2nd and 4th over there.
So I have been in the minority about my feeling with scatter bikes, but in a 3 source format I really feel they are not the end of the world like everyone are making them out to be. You are right they are new, but the more I try to make an eldar list I like, the less I like it. The funny thing is I was experimenting with durcurion crons about a month prior to killadelphia and the uk games expo since i had my killa list set and I knew my eldar didnt work with the codex change.
jy2 wrote:
FO-spam is a very competitive Necron build (like Flesh Hound spam). IMO, it's even better than wraithspam Necrons, and this is coming from someone who has been playing wraithspam ever since 5th Edition to now. The Canoptek Harvest formation costs you about 370-pts for 1 spider, 3 scarabs and 6 wraiths with whip coils. A unit of 20 FO's only costs 260-pts but puts out a heck a of better punch than the wraiths in CC. Where wraiths have the edge is the speed, the ability to punch through AV11+ vehicles (FO's will easily glance AV10 vehicles to death) and the ability to hurt super-tough units like wraithknights. Where FO's outshine wraiths is in pure offense (100 attacks on the charge vs 24 for the wraiths), better resiliency to low AP weaponry, no single point of failure (kill the spider and the wraiths lose RP) and of course, they are cheaper, thus allowing you to get more into the army. BTW, in the ITC format, you can't spam the Canoptek Harvest formation due to the 0-1 limitations on all formations/detachments, but you can spam FO's because it is considered a detachment unit as opposed to a detachment formation.
Again I was on the flayed one bandwagon about a month ago. I started with 4-6 min units, but I kind of fell off using them, frankly they are too slow and they still can get wittled down by small arms fire to the point where they are not super effective in combat. Honestly tho their speed was what did it in for me. Then I went back to wraiths, but 6 seemed too many for what you want them to do. I am really really enjoying spamimg the crap out of min harvest formations right now in durcurion which you can do in nova.
Like you said tho you cant spam harvests in itc, but you can spam flayed ones, however in that format I think id lean more towards a durcurion//necron cad with scarab farm, backed up by 2 min wraith units and 2-4 units of 5-7 flayed ones. Especially considering the itc scatter bike nerf made scarabs alot better.
My current nova list has 3 harvests, a reclmation legion with a bufed tb unit, and the 5 talos formation which is silly good.
A list some of my buddies and I are toying around with is eldar cad, seer formation, and levi for a seer star, 3 ejb units, and your standard 3 flyrant 3 mucloid formation. I feel like theres a good amount of tool box things you can do there and some silly psy combos you can do with flyrants and seers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldercaveman wrote:
At the Expo, it was alot of top players switching TOO Eldar, and not the other way round. The players who finished 1 and 2, were previously known for their Farsight bomb, Necrons and Daemons around here. They also drew their last game against each other on top table their list's were roughly
1st Place
2 Farseer
4 medium sized units of scatter bikes
Wraithknight
2 squads of spiders
1 Hawks
4 D Cannon battery's
Mission - Kill Points Deployment - Vanguard
First Turn - Eldar
I deploy my Venomthrope in a Bastion which was in my deployment area, with 4 Hive Tyrants behind it, Mucoloids all deploy out of sight, everything else in reserve.
He moves around his skimmers to get line of sight on to my Flyrants, his Nightspinner immobilise itself in a ruins.
Eldar get perfect timing off on the Lynx and guide on one of the Hornets.
I messed up with my deployment, thinking he had the hellstorm torrent Lynx, my mistake which costs me 2 Flyrants, the bastion and my Venomthrope, 1 Flyrant loses 3 wounds and one is untouched by the end of his shooting.
My first turn I fly off the untouched Flyrant, to guarentee I have some reserves Turn 2! My wounded flyrant goes super aggresive up the field, and puts catalyst on himself, before dropping a hornet.
His turn 2 is entire army unloads into my 1 wound Flyrant, and between jink saves and FNP I don't take a single wound
After this point my memory is a bit blurred, but I think all my reserves come on and proceed to take down his easy skimmers. and only lose one more unit for the whole game, I think it was the third Flyrant.
Final score 6-4 on kill points to the Tyranids!
I'll add the rest of the reports tomorrow.
Interesting, but your meta over there is quite a bit different then here, and its hard to translate from 1850 to 1650 as those 200 points make a huge difference in list construction, also I dont know what missions you use so I would assume they lend themselves to mobile shooting armies. I do really like 2nd place eldar list on there tho.
Frozocrone wrote: Really happy to hear that, the #1 power gamer switched to Ncerons after his Heldrake spam list got trashed by Necrons. He's going with Canoptek Harvest and Annilation formation and completely disregarded Flayed Ones (even brings a Nightscythe but the Necron ground force is so good you don't even need AA).
Spyder is eh without reanimation, when playing Orks I just chuck a bunch of die at it and it's removed after the end of wounds. Same with Nids.
FO's really don't get enough press/notoriety. No one ran them in the previous edition and a lot of people still don't know how truly good they are. Wraiths, on the other hand, everyone knows about them and how good they are. But the FO is a dark horse unit that will surprise a lot of people, especially if they've never really played against them before.
I actually had a quick 500-pt 3-way battle against 2 other ork players. I ran a D-lord + 20 FO's (only 450-pts actually). 1 ork player ran 2x30 boys + characters. The other ran a nob-squad with multiple power klaws in a trukk (and S5 AP4 combi-flamers for all his nobs!). I ended up tabling both and lost only about 5 FO's or so at the end. My nob opponent was just shocked when he assaulted me with his nobs, only to lose more than half of his nobs (and with FNP) before he could even strike!
Eldercaveman wrote: At the Expo, it was alot of top players switching TOO Eldar, and not the other way round. The players who finished 1 and 2, were previously known for their Farsight bomb, Necrons and Daemons around here. They also drew their last game against each other on top table their list's were roughly
1st Place
2 Farseer
4 medium sized units of scatter bikes
Wraithknight
2 squads of spiders
1 Hawks
4 D Cannon battery's
Mission - Kill Points Deployment - Vanguard
First Turn - Eldar
I deploy my Venomthrope in a Bastion which was in my deployment area, with 4 Hive Tyrants behind it, Mucoloids all deploy out of sight, everything else in reserve.
He moves around his skimmers to get line of sight on to my Flyrants, his Nightspinner immobilise itself in a ruins.
Eldar get perfect timing off on the Lynx and guide on one of the Hornets.
I messed up with my deployment, thinking he had the hellstorm torrent Lynx, my mistake which costs me 2 Flyrants, the bastion and my Venomthrope, 1 Flyrant loses 3 wounds and one is untouched by the end of his shooting.
My first turn I fly off the untouched Flyrant, to guarentee I have some reserves Turn 2! My wounded flyrant goes super aggresive up the field, and puts catalyst on himself, before dropping a hornet.
His turn 2 is entire army unloads into my 1 wound Flyrant, and between jink saves and FNP I don't take a single wound
After this point my memory is a bit blurred, but I think all my reserves come on and proceed to take down his easy skimmers. and only lose one more unit for the whole game, I think it was the third Flyrant.
Final score 6-4 on kill points to the Tyranids!
I'll add the rest of the reports tomorrow.
Thanks for sharing. I'm actually surprised that there wasn't the seer council in the top lists. Wow! Seems like the Aspect Host (2 spiders + 1 hawks), which I predicted was also very, very good, made it to the top 2 lists. I think the 2nd place list could have been even better had only he split up his units of bikers from 3 units to 6 (but maybe I am guessing because every mission incorporates Kill Points into them?).
Yeah, when the top US players start running Eldar competitively, you're going to see tournament results a lot more like this one.
Looking forwards to the rest of your summaries, even if you don't remember all that much.
So I have been in the minority about my feeling with scatter bikes, but in a 3 source format I really feel they are not the end of the world like everyone are making them out to be. You are right they are new, but the more I try to make an eldar list I like, the less I like it. The funny thing is I was experimenting with durcurion crons about a month prior to killadelphia and the uk games expo since i had my killa list set and I knew my eldar didnt work with the codex change.
You're right. Scatterbikes aren't the end of the world. But then, why should an 81-pt unit be the end of the world?
IMO, I don't think you should make the scatterbikes the focal point of the offense. Rather, they should complement your offense, whether it be the Seer Council, the Aspect Host, pure-MSU or wraithguard-spam. I think that is when you get the most bang out of them. They are already a very high-priority target. Now when you make them the focal point of your offense as well, it is a no-brainer what the opponent will go after. However, throw in other units as well - spiders, swooping hawks, wraithguards in serpents, flyers, hornets, D-artillery, etc. - and now you obfuscate target priority for your opponent. Suddenly, they've got more pressing units that they are forced to deal with and now your bikers have a lot more breathing space. That is when they work best IMO. For only 405-pts, you can get 5x3 scatterbikes and now you've still got 1445-pts (in a 1850 list) to build the rest of your army offense. There isn't any other troop choice in the game that can beat the utility of the scatterbike and the benefits it provides to its army.
jy2 wrote:
FO-spam is a very competitive Necron build (like Flesh Hound spam). IMO, it's even better than wraithspam Necrons, and this is coming from someone who has been playing wraithspam ever since 5th Edition to now. The Canoptek Harvest formation costs you about 370-pts for 1 spider, 3 scarabs and 6 wraiths with whip coils. A unit of 20 FO's only costs 260-pts but puts out a heck a of better punch than the wraiths in CC. Where wraiths have the edge is the speed, the ability to punch through AV11+ vehicles (FO's will easily glance AV10 vehicles to death) and the ability to hurt super-tough units like wraithknights. Where FO's outshine wraiths is in pure offense (100 attacks on the charge vs 24 for the wraiths), better resiliency to low AP weaponry, no single point of failure (kill the spider and the wraiths lose RP) and of course, they are cheaper, thus allowing you to get more into the army. BTW, in the ITC format, you can't spam the Canoptek Harvest formation due to the 0-1 limitations on all formations/detachments, but you can spam FO's because it is considered a detachment unit as opposed to a detachment formation.
Again I was on the flayed one bandwagon about a month ago. I started with 4-6 min units, but I kind of fell off using them, frankly they are too slow and they still can get wittled down by small arms fire to the point where they are not super effective in combat. Honestly tho their speed was what did it in for me. Then I went back to wraiths, but 6 seemed too many for what you want them to do. I am really really enjoying spamimg the crap out of min harvest formations right now in durcurion which you can do in nova.
Like you said tho you cant spam harvests in itc, but you can spam flayed ones, however in that format I think id lean more towards a durcurion//necron cad with scarab farm, backed up by 2 min wraith units and 2-4 units of 5-7 flayed ones. Especially considering the itc scatter bike nerf made scarabs alot better.
My current nova list has 3 harvests, a reclmation legion with a bufed tb unit, and the 5 talos formation which is silly good.
A list some of my buddies and I are toying around with is eldar cad, seer formation, and levi for a seer star, 3 ejb units, and your standard 3 flyrant 3 mucloid formation. I feel like theres a good amount of tool box things you can do there and some silly psy combos you can do with flyrants and seers.
You could run FO's as MSU, but IMO they just aren't as effective when you do so. They need staying power. IMO, you should run them in squad sizes of 10 or more. If you're running multiple FO units, then have at least 1 larger squad and you can run the rest as MSU. Why is this? Because once you get to below 5 FO's, they really aren't perceived as a threat anymore because they just aren't as effective against anything other than other MSU units. But running larger units and they have staying power and are a threat to infantry, MC's and light tanks as well.
Yeah, they are slower than wraiths. You do have to take that into consideration when running FO's. Play the area denial game and put them close to objectives. Then watch your opponent run away from them. Or if you are also running the Destroyer Cult, then you can play the FO's more aggressively and have the destroyers/heavy destroyers stay with the objectives.
Your list is good, but if you swap out your 3 harvest formations for 3x18 FO's + the Corpsethief formation, holy ships! That is one helluva denial army! I'd hate to play against that army in KP missions. Of course its drawback is that it is also a very slow army.
@jy2, nova is all about speed this yr, masssed flayed ones honestly wont kill to much. I see what you are saying about a larger unit as an area denial anchor and at 130 for a 10 man unit, I could see myself trying one somewhere down the line, but those harvest formations are such money. Now im very early into testing so everything is subject to change.
krootman. wrote: @jy2, nova is all about speed this yr, masssed flayed ones honestly wont kill to much. I see what you are saying about a larger unit as an area denial anchor and at 130 for a 10 man unit, I could see myself trying one somewhere down the line, but those harvest formations are such money. Now im very early into testing so everything is subject to change.
Will you be making it to nova this yr?
Yeah, I'll be going to both the Invitational as well as the Open.
Perhaps we can get a rematch in. Just right now, I'm not sure what I'm bringing yet.
I'm curious what you are fielding in your flayed ones list. We tested out a list with decurion with zahn, 10 warriors/20warriors/immortal/3 tomb blades. We added flayed ones - 3x15 and a living tomb for shenanigans(obelisk, monolith). Against nids the obelisk is a bit of a beast. It realy creates a nifty no fly zone and hurts anything on the ground anyway.
Hey everyone I got some questions for you all. First off I have gotten my hands on 18 warriors. I plan on using them at some point since I have them and I am wondering what the best load out would be for two full squads? I might make one in each group a prime and put both groups in Tyrannocytes. Sure there may be better tactics for nids, but if you were to use 18 tyranid warriors, what would you kit them out to be?
Lord Scythican wrote: Hey everyone I got some questions for you all. First off I have gotten my hands on 18 warriors. I plan on using them at some point since I have them and I am wondering what the best load out would be for two full squads? I might make one in each group a prime and put both groups in Tyrannocytes. Sure there may be better tactics for nids, but if you were to use 18 tyranid warriors, what would you kit them out to be?
If I wanted to use 18 Warriors, I would take three squads. One as a 3 man, barbed Strangler LAN supervisor unit. The second, a big ol unit in a Pod like what you had planned, and finally a unit of Shrikes. Seriously, if you have any spare wings or want to buy a Garg box, Shrikes are SO worth it compared to Warriors. Now, if you want to take large squads, then you're doing it to assault with. At this point, be they Warriors or Shrikes, then I would buy a single Lashwhip/BS for every three models in the unit, and smatter in some Rending Claws. At this point you do really want to keep the unit cheap as possible so I wouldn't reccomend Poison or anything else. Simply take the unit, buy a few Boneswords and use it as an assault support unit. OR, if you are going for more of a backfield support role, I would buy a Biocannon and two sets of Rending Claws for every three models in the unit. Note that this could be simply a minimum 3 man squad with a Strangler and some claws. Very good as a shooty unit that has ObSec and can support your backfield. Well, as good as you can get with Warriors. Warriors are in general not at all the best troops you can take, but I would certainly recommend Shrikes as a unit that tends to do better than their Rep online would suggest.
I'm curious what you are fielding in your flayed ones list. We tested out a list with decurion with zahn, 10 warriors/20warriors/immortal/3 tomb blades. We added flayed ones - 3x15 and a living tomb for shenanigans(obelisk, monolith). Against nids the obelisk is a bit of a beast. It realy creates a nifty no fly zone and hurts anything on the ground anyway.
All of that fits into a 1850 list, BTW.
I'll PM you so as to reduce the amount of non-Tyranid clutter in this thread.
krootman. wrote: @jy2, nova is all about speed this yr, masssed flayed ones honestly wont kill to much. I see what you are saying about a larger unit as an area denial anchor and at 130 for a 10 man unit, I could see myself trying one somewhere down the line, but those harvest formations are such money. Now im very early into testing so everything is subject to change.
Will you be making it to nova this yr?
Yeah, I'll be going to both the Invitational as well as the Open.
Perhaps we can get a rematch in. Just right now, I'm not sure what I'm bringing yet.
Nice same here, I think im going to bring the same army for both the invitational and the open. I am hoping to have it finalized in about a month or so. Hopefully getting 2-4 more nova games in this week.
I would love to play against the new Skitarii/Ad Mech/Knights armies. Too bad we don't have very many of those players yet in our meta, especially now that Reece and Frankie of Frontline Gaming has moved down to SoCal.
Guess I'm just going to have to get the tar knocked out of me by them in tournament play.
jy2 wrote: I would love to play against the new Skitarii/Ad Mech/Knights armies. Too bad we don't have very many of those players yet in our meta, especially now that Reece and Frankie of Frontline Gaming has moved down to SoCal.
Guess I'm just going to have to get the tar knocked out of me by them in tournament play.
To be honest I feel like Nids have a great chance vs the new Skitarii compared to most armies. A crone will kill almost a whole Ruststalker squad on his own and will also kill vanguard quickly. We can very easily kill anything but the Robots I feel and we're good against alpha strikes so I'm not worried about that.
If flying Tyrants are out as an HQ choice, what is the next best HQ unit? I'm thinking either Primes to go as cheap as possible, or walking dakkaTyrants, but I would prefer a second opinion.
The reason I ask is that I'm writing a list with the limitation of no flyers for an upcoming game.
Ah, and no LoW or Gargantuans, although FW is cool otherwise.
I forget how much crap has to be explained for games-
Spoiler:
No flyers, Gargantuans, or LoW.
FW is fine.
Maximum two sources.
No double CAD.
jy2 wrote: I would love to play against the new Skitarii/Ad Mech/Knights armies. Too bad we don't have very many of those players yet in our meta, especially now that Reece and Frankie of Frontline Gaming has moved down to SoCal.
Guess I'm just going to have to get the tar knocked out of me by them in tournament play.
To be honest I feel like Nids have a great chance vs the new Skitarii compared to most armies. A crone will kill almost a whole Ruststalker squad on his own and will also kill vanguard quickly. We can very easily kill anything but the Robots I feel and we're good against alpha strikes so I'm not worried about that.
I'm really not sure how well we can survive their alpha-strikes, and I'm talking about when they bring the Blood Angel formation with 6 drop pods. That can be very nasty, especially when you factor in the multiple ways they can reduce cover.
Which is one of the reasons why I want so badly to play against such a Skitarri/Admech/BA build.
Sinful Hero wrote: If flying Tyrants are out as an HQ choice, what is the next best HQ unit? I'm thinking either Primes to go as cheap as possible, or walking dakkaTyrants, but I would prefer a second opinion.
The reason I ask is that I'm writing a list with the limitation of no flyers for an upcoming game.
Ah, and no LoW or Gargantuans, although FW is cool otherwise.
I forget how much crap has to be explained for games-
Spoiler:
No flyers, Gargantuans, or LoW.
FW is fine.
Maximum two sources.
No double CAD.
I would, as an HQ choice, probably take a Tervigon or a walking Tyrant with Dakka. Actually what I'd recommend is a single walking Tyrant, probably with a single Tyrant guard, and also a Skytyrant swarm. Now you may have to ask your opponent if a Jump MC is good enough for these limits, but a Jump Flyrant attached to Gargoyles is still excellent.
Sinful Hero wrote: If flying Tyrants are out as an HQ choice, what is the next best HQ unit? I'm thinking either Primes to go as cheap as possible, or walking dakkaTyrants, but I would prefer a second opinion.
The reason I ask is that I'm writing a list with the limitation of no flyers for an upcoming game.
Ah, and no LoW or Gargantuans, although FW is cool otherwise.
I forget how much crap has to be explained for games-
Spoiler:
No flyers, Gargantuans, or LoW.
FW is fine.
Maximum two sources.
No double CAD.
I would, as an HQ choice, probably take a Tervigon or a walking Tyrant with Dakka. Actually what I'd recommend is a single walking Tyrant, probably with a single Tyrant guard, and also a Skytyrant swarm. Now you may have to ask your opponent if a Jump MC is good enough for these limits, but a Jump Flyrant attached to Gargoyles is still excellent.
Not a bad idea- I think will take a SkyTyrant formation. Being a Jump MC keeps him under the no flyers rule too.
If I took a walking dakkaTyrant, would Tyrant Guard or a Tyrannocyte be the better option to run with him?
Skytyrant all the way. That's an excellent unit. Although it may break the letter of the law (but not the spirit?), as the Skytyrant is technically a Flying Monstrous Creature.
rollawaythestone wrote: Skytyrant all the way. That's an excellent unit. Although it may break the letter of the law (but not the spirit?), as the Skytyrant is technically a Flying Monstrous Creature.
For the purposes of this game it won't be considered illegal since it can't Swoop.
I am involved in a monthly gaming group that has started at 250 points and has grown now to 1250. It is very good as before in my area a lot of people stopped playing 40k but now there is a group of 6-8 that plays.
We have been using only CAD at this time and now allowing forgeworld models on a limited basis. At 1500 we are moving to formations and and other detachments.
That being said. I need some advice on what to field. I don't care if I win since a few people are just starting and sometimes forget the objectives are key. We play Maelstorm roll strait from the book.
My CAD core is always.
Flyrant 2x devours and eGrubs
Flyrant 2x devours and eGrubs
Malanthrope
2 x ripper bases(3 each) with DS
I was thinking
Gargoyles
Lictor or zoie
Three fexen with all with 2x TLDevs.
I also thought about fielding a tervigon and gaunt tax, gargoyles and lictors to fill out the last 100 points.
Thoughts?
I expect Chaos, Tau mainly a gun line, necrons lead by Imo, vanilla marines in rhinos and truk orcs maybe guard or demons.
rollawaythestone wrote: Skytyrant all the way. That's an excellent unit. Although it may break the letter of the law (but not the spirit?), as the Skytyrant is technically a Flying Monstrous Creature.
For the purposes of this game it won't be considered illegal since it can't Swoop.
I like the skytyrant swarm and turning the tyrant into a melee beast. I have used him once this way and I was able to keep him in ruins and even getting charged he wrecked marine equivalents.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amoras wrote: Having yust played against the Skitarii i can say Dunecrawlers absolutely wreck Crones.
I assume this is when the dune crawler is using the Daedalus option? To much AP4 in that weapon.
I look at FO and I just think...wow all of that in 13 points. Then I look at genestealers and just shake my head. FO just wreck stealers. They fill the same purpose and FO will actually survive to get to combat.
Skytyrant Swarm
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, Old Adversary, Scything Talons, Lash Whip and Bone Sword
omg no flyrants Was tempted to run 2x10 Devourers and turn Malanthrope into Venomthrope but thought the bodies were more important. Kinda just wanted a large ground force to control objectives, two Tervigons should help with that..
Skytyrant Swarm
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, Old Adversary, Scything Talons, Lash Whip and Bone Sword
omg no flyrants Was tempted to run 2x10 Devourers and turn Malanthrope into Venomthrope but thought the bodies were more important. Kinda just wanted a large ground force to control objectives, two Tervigons should help with that..
I like that list. What about making the vaunts on squad and moving a tervigon to a troop?
I also would run mine with eGrubs and crushing claws. I cannot think of a better way to run them. I also like the miasma cannon. Just love all those templates
I considered it but in the end I had the HQ slot open so I might as well. I prefer having 3x10 as opposed to 1x30 because if everything shoots into the large unit then I might not have any gaunts left, whereas if everything shoots into one unit of ten, I've still got 20 gaunts left for Ob Sec.
Sinful Hero wrote: If flying Tyrants are out as an HQ choice, what is the next best HQ unit? I'm thinking either Primes to go as cheap as possible, or walking dakkaTyrants, but I would prefer a second opinion.
The reason I ask is that I'm writing a list with the limitation of no flyers for an upcoming game.
Ah, and no LoW or Gargantuans, although FW is cool otherwise.
I forget how much crap has to be explained for games-
Spoiler:
No flyers, Gargantuans, or LoW.
FW is fine.
Maximum two sources.
No double CAD.
Combat Primes buried in a large unit of devilgants and gants is pretty great, not only can you make that guy your warlord with like 20-30 ablative wounds, but he is also a death machine in close combat. Just about the only thing that unit fears is CC with an armor value, aka dreadnoughts, maulerfiends, soulgrinders, etc.
Sinful Hero wrote: If flying Tyrants are out as an HQ choice, what is the next best HQ unit? I'm thinking either Primes to go as cheap as possible, or walking dakkaTyrants, but I would prefer a second opinion.
The reason I ask is that I'm writing a list with the limitation of no flyers for an upcoming game.
Ah, and no LoW or Gargantuans, although FW is cool otherwise.
I forget how much crap has to be explained for games-
Spoiler:
No flyers, Gargantuans, or LoW.
FW is fine.
Maximum two sources.
No double CAD.
Combat Primes buried in a large unit of devilgants and gants is pretty great, not only can you make that guy your warlord with like 20-30 ablative wounds, but he is also a death machine in close combat. Just about the only thing that unit fears is CC with an armor value, aka dreadnoughts, maulerfiends, soulgrinders, etc.
Could make it a shooty prime with a Miasma Cannon in Devilgants. If combat oriented, wouldn't it be better in hormagaunts to maximize it's role at combat? Or are you thinking Devilgaunts to deter other assault units via overwatch?
750 points doubles tourney
3 lists per player.
Each list most contain 1HQ & 1- 6 troops. Then each list has only 1 elite, fast attack or heavy support with no duplicate choices I.e no heavy supports in two lists.
Before each game after the mission objectives have been deployed but before sides are chosen you chose which list is being played for each player and reveal these lists then set up as normal.
Command and conquer will be in effect which means each list most be played once during the event so pick carefully commanders your resources are limited
Example
List 1 (elite)
Farseer
2x 10 dire avengers
1 x howling banshees
List 2 ( fast attack)
Farseer skyrunner
2 x Eldar jetbikes
1 unit of shinning spears
List 3 (Heavy)
1 aurtarch
2 x guardian defender units
1 fire prism
For each 2 infantry units in a list a single vehicle or monstrous creature can be included
In this tournament only troop infantry squads can claim objective secured
Only vehicles who's armour values that add up to 34 or below may be included (counting the side armour only once)
I.e. a rhino is a value of 32 (front 11 side 11 rear 10) and would be allowed
Bike units are allowed but will not count towards vehicle or monstrous creature allowance and do not gain objective secured if taken as troops
Forge world units are allowed but most follow the same restrictions as above
Super heavy vehicles, gargantuan monstrous and lords of war are not allowed unless they are a independent character or the
Avatar of khaine but it must follow the restrictions
With the speed they are updating, I would not be suprised if we got anew book. Space marines next, then tau, possibly tau allies, then maybe another imperial, then nids
My Matchups:
Round 1: Me + CSM vs 30 Scat Bikes + Grey Knights
Round 2: Me + Space Wolves (at his 1st ever tourney) vs 54 Scat Bikes.
Round 3: Me + Grey Knights vs 24 Scat bikes + Orks.
I guess scat bikes are officially in. 12 total players, 4 of them spamming scat bikes. 3 of the top 4 were Scat bikes, with the other top player being Necrons.
Some more details on my games:
Missions:
Spoiler:
Adepticon team missions. Maelstrom on 2 of the 3. I ended the day losing a Flyrant and 2 crones sacrificed to score objectives.
Round 1:
Spoiler:
The Scat bike player deployed 1st, and deployed in a corner of the board, so I counter deployed, and was out of his range on turn 1. He more or less shot my teammate off the table except for 2 groups of cultist hiding behind LOS blockers, and some nurgle bikers, but I was unscathed. I advanced and basically shot up the grey knights except for the Land Raider and Dread Knight. I did kill 1 unit of 5 scat bikes. By turn 4 I had tabled the scat bikes, and only lost the Venom, and both mucolids. My teammate was completely tabled minus one squad of cultists, who were scoring fools, because we kept drawing the objective they were on. I Landed all of my FMCs to score as well, and headed back for the Grey Knights. They dumped the Strike Squads out of the land raider and assaulted and killed my warlord, but I psychic screamed the survivors to death. A crone Assaulted and took the last wound off the Land Raider. At this point our opponents just had a 1 wound dread knight remaining, but the game ended on 5. We won by 2 points.
Round 2:
Spoiler:
I knew exactly how this game would go. My partner had 6 las cannon long fangs, 3 TWC with all of the upgrades, and a heavily upgraded TWIC. He also had 2 max squads of blood claws with no transport. The mission was Table quarters at the end of the game. OS units count as 2. Against us were 12 squads of OS scat bikes, and they won the roll off for table sides, and also the roll off for 1st turn. We had no LOS blockers in our deployment, and the opponents had a warlord trait of -1 to reserves. I knew I couldn't win, but figured I could drag the game out if we reserved everything, and took our chances with the 4+ reserve rolls. I figured it would be no fun for my teammate, so instead we just deployed everything.
Turn 1.
I lost a Venomthrope, 3 Flyrants 1 Crone, and took 3 wounds on my other Crone. My partner lost his TWC.
We shot back. My crone killed 3 scat bikes, my partner's long fangs killed a whole squad of 5 who failed their leadership and ran off the table.
Turn 2:
I lost my Crone. My partner lost everything he had. At this point we declared it a complete tabling even though I still had a unit of rippers, and 2 mucolids in reserves.
Wowzer. Turn 2 Tabling. That is humiliating. I stick to my guns that this was probably the best case scenario for my teammate.
Round 3:
Spoiler:
My partner was my Grey Knights opponent from round 1. We lost the roll for 1st turn. I counter deployed the Scat bikes as best I could, but there weren't great options, and no LOS blocker for the Venom big enough to giver cover to the FMCs. My warlord trait was night attacker, so I decided it was night.
Turn 1: The scat bikes that could came after me. They killed the venom, and took 3 wounds off my warlord. The Ork Shokk attack gun rolled 66 and put a Large Blast vortex in our deployment zone. It D slapped a Crone, but my Flyrant made a cover save. Thank the gods for night attacker. The lootas and Flash gitz took 3 wounds off our Dread Knight.
I returned fire. I toasted some lootas, and BBQ'd some flash gitz in a battle wagon. I popped a Trukk that was a MANZ missile. I killed 7 Scat bikes. My teammate shunted his Dread Knight, and BBQed a bunch of lootas and killed a War Walker
Turn 2: The Vortex scattered onto my teammates Land Raider and exploded it. Cue rules debate about the AP of a Vortex. It was AP from the SAG, so yes. LR dies. SAG smashes most of the survivors that came out of the LR. Lots of shots at my flyrants, lots of misses, and I made a couple of clutch saves on my 1 wound warlord. The Manz assaulted and kill my teammate's Razorback.
I shot back. Vector struck the 1 wound SAG, but rolled a one. Finished off the lootas Drooled on the flash gitz in the battle wagon. Killed about 10 Scat bikes. My teammate's marines combined to shoot and assault 4 scat bikes. His Dread Knight took one wound off a War walker, but when It tried to assault it died to overwatch.
Turn 3: My teammates marines take a lot of fire. He ends up losing all but 3.
I shot back. Killed another 7 scat bikes and 2 Manz. Vector strukk the BW but failed to glance it. Toasted some more Flash Gitz, and finished off the SAG warlord. I'm feeling pretty good about tabling my opponents, though my teammate is almost gone. However, something goes terribly wrong. My rippers deep strike onto an objective, and it turns out to be skyfire.
Turn 4: The last squad of 4 Scat bikes with the attached IC's moves onto the Skyfire objective, and put 6 saves on a full wound flyrant. I failed 4 of 6, and it dies. The the flash gitz kill my Warlord.
I shoot back, landing both my remaining FMC's to score objectives. This is the turn my mocolid finally finishes the 2nd warwalker. I shoot up the Scat bikes, but thanks to lucky / clever placement, I kill 2 Scat bikes, and he is able to LOS between the Autarch and Farseer to put a wound on both. My Crone Takes a hull point of the BW, and Drools on the Flash Gitz again.
Turn 5: The scat bike squad breaks up. The Autarch and Farseer go and kill the last 3 marines. The 2 Scatbikes manage to put 3! wounds of my last flyrant. The flash gitz get out of the wagon. He informs me that I've done 12 wounds to them, so that is 2 dead Flash gitz and a wound on all of the rest. We've been rehashing this argument the whole game. Wounds are randomly allocated, and he is making an effort, but isn't doing it quite right. I figure it doesn't matter much. He shoots at my Crone takes it down to 2 wounds, then assaults it. I kill 3 Flash gitz with Overwatch, and 3 more in assault, but the last 2 finish me off. UG.
I've got 1 wound left on 1 flyrant. But our opponent's don't have much either. I psychic scream the flyrant to finish off the last 2 Scat bikes, and then shoot the Autarch to death. The farseer is still out there, as are 2 MANZ, 2 Flash Giz, a Battle Wagon, and some greatchin. We decide to call it. Opponents are up by 3 on Maelstrom, and aren't likely to table me. It was a close game, but the Vortex was a big deal, and my dice going ice cold on turn 4 was frustrating.
This scat bike player is the overall winner. He max pointed his 1st two rounds, and managed to get a few points off of me.
I recently embarked on a project to give every faction in 40k a Core/Command/Auxiliary style detachment, starting with the Tyranids. Unfortunately I don't have a huge amount of experience to draw on; I've done a lot of research to try and compensate, but it would be very useful to get the opinion of some experienced Tyranid players.
If you'd like to help out, there's a link to the thread here.
Imperials can use Big Artillery that tend to hit anywhere they wish...
It fills me with joy to actually use my Assassin again. 
I can't call it the best thing Ever, but I like it quite a bit. 
So I am forced to fire the WK at him. At first I wanted to run my WK to the Skyfire objective (and cover as well), but now, he's going to be out in the open. Instead, he shoots....and my opponent finally fails a 2+ cover save! The Malanthrope finally goes down!
, 
. Game over!
I recently finished for a local custom model contest. I love the model and don’t mind using him and he’s been effective in the list I have been running. He wasn't my first pick but I can work with him.
Because of the Special Rule, it might be viable....255 if I take it. Thoughts? 
