TwoGunBob wrote: I know the Rifts Sooperfans are sick of hearing about Robotech at every turn.
My heart bleeds for them. So. Very. Sad.
And it's not like there were a ton of them. It was being advertised for six months. Heavily promoted for the last one or two. So it's not like there was anyone with more than a passing interest in PB that didn't know about it.
And it got 600 backers (including several non-committal ones). That's simply not indicative of a robust playerbase. And the math gets kind of sketchy for PB. It really makes me wonder, given the size of the playerbase, and the sparse release effort, how PB continue to operate. Even if they got full MSRP for each book, just paying payroll and utilities with one new release every 6 months...
I hope Scotty isn't working probono. Kr being paid in old stock and backissue Rifters.
Maybe action figures from Kevster's private stash?
I really think Scooter is going to feign a lot of clueless bewilderment regarding Robotech despite the fact he's been hanging on Palladium's teat long enough to pretty much know everything regarding progress. In case Scoots needs a refresher I can sum it up easily.
There has been no progress of any sorts in three years.
Now that Scotts is up to date he can move forward. Course he's about two or three updates away from talking about his worries regarding the impending six month long Chinese New Year ruining chances for a speedy release in 2017 but by third quarter 2018 things should be shaping up to give some real concrete information about the firming up of those quotes...
Except...
Con crud maybe?
OPEC embargo affecting production of plastics quotes?
OK. Who is Scott really? I have a feeling that Scott could be the real owner PB now. I don't know why I think this its a feeling. Maybe its all the posts I read here and every where else that I read. 1 some one posted that HG will make a decision this summer about PB. 2 Why the big push with Rift BG KS by summer. 3 Kev sick and not around for few week after. Well right now it a question what happen after GenCon and the summer , we shall see what fall brings. I don't know its a feeling here guys . Maybe Scotty is the new owner of PB
DEZOAT wrote: OK. Who is Scott really? I have a feeling that Scott could be the real owner PB now. I don't know why I think this its a feeling. Maybe its all the posts I read here and every where else that I read. 1 some one posted that HG will make a decision this summer about PB. 2 Why the big push with Rift BG KS by summer. 3 Kev sick and not around for few week after. Well right now it a question what happen after GenCon and the summer , we shall see what fall brings. I don't know its a feeling here guys . Maybe Scotty is the new owner of PB
Don\t know if Scott is a new owner, backer or investor but it seems like things are moving again.. Just like all the back logged books got published after palladium got a hold of the RTT kick-starter money.
As with anything.. you can do what ever you want in life.. just depends on how much money you want to spend getting there.. But there is money coming in from some where and its not from game sales.
The truth will be on the information provided at the July 4th and Gen Con announcements .. If they continue with the "we are working on it" with no real proof of anything, it doesn't matter. Most will loose
the remaining faith and move on like most of us has already done.
The other thing I thought was when ninja division was running things there was the idea of single pose injection molded figures like zombicide or Conan, but Kevin wanted to compete with games workshop.
I think I would been fine with a decent game with those types of models.. instead we got a half baked game with models that are impossible to build without instructions.
I would have been fine with decent quality PVC figures instead of micro-models. Especially if we got everything in a single wave on or around the promised 98% ship date.
Ditto on PVC, the likes of several CMON games and even the recent Runewars figures shows you can do very nice one piece - or close to one piece figures.
However, I think it is far to late in the game for them now to even consider this - they've made their grave, now they'll have to lie in it.
DEZOAT wrote: OK. Who is Scott really? I have a feeling that Scott could be the real owner PB now. I don't know why I think this its a feeling. Maybe its all the posts I read here and every where else that I read. 1 some one posted that HG will make a decision this summer about PB. 2 Why the big push with Rift BG KS by summer. 3 Kev sick and not around for few week after. Well right now it a question what happen after GenCon and the summer , we shall see what fall brings. I don't know its a feeling here guys . Maybe Scotty is the new owner of PB
No Scott is not the new owner. I was curious and sent him an email. Once you know the email of one you can pretty well guess the emails for everyone else. I did talk to him briefly and he does give me a glimmer of hope, although I will wait to see what the update says in July. This does not sway me from my current project though, Dimension Wars. I think he's more of jumping into a situation where he has to feel things out and get a good handle on the mess in the room before deciding how and where to start cleaning it up. Problem is finding out if the washer works, if there is enough drawer and closet space to pick up this mess and make it look somewhat orderly. I'm willing to wait and see. I doubt it'll get me to do much more than watch the show though. We are past animosity and on to apathy. Both have their good and bad.
n815e wrote: Yay for an entire table of the lifted knee battloid.
Oh you!
A few cuts, some green stuff, a cut limb here and there repositioned... a project just begging to teach new people the skillsets for modifying models!
Though envisioning a Super-veritech chorus line / kick line seems epic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mike1975 wrote: I think he's more of jumping into a situation where he has to feel things out and get a good handle on the mess in the room before deciding how and where to start cleaning it up. Problem is finding out if the washer works, if there is enough drawer and closet space to pick up this mess and make it look somewhat orderly.
This parallelism can go without end and seem ridiculous.
How do you start cleaning a "mess" years in the making?
Heck, the "maid" will be wondering how they will be paid along with the other contractors needed to remedy the mess.
All the while, the "homeowner" continues to add to the mess further complicating the action plans made.
Then there is the added complication of trying to clean around the horded belongings (retail stock).
Lastly, the owner has this crazy notion of turning the lights off to save power which really complicates "cleaning" efforts.
Yeah, I think I beat that to death pretty good and there is still room to run with it.
Probably the hardest part for the Moto-Scooter is getting a straight answer out of Unca Kevayne that they've been lying for three years and have had their thumbs up each other's butts for the past three years regarding progress and that all the funds are gone. Then he has the hard decision of keeping up the charade and tarring his career prospects for the future or coming clean about the situation so that he can honestly start over. Course Scotty is beholden to Unca Kevvy for a paycheck so I doubt any transparency is on its way down the pipeline. Kevster will basically tell Scott to shut up and quit bothering him about Robotech and tell those bastiche backers that 'we are working on it'.
Mike1975 wrote: No Scott is not the new owner. I was curious and sent him an email. Once you know the email of one you can pretty well guess the emails for everyone else. I did talk to him briefly and he does give me a glimmer of hope, although I will wait to see what the update says in July...
Wait. Someone at Palladium actually replied to an email?
Mike1975 wrote: No Scott is not the new owner. I was curious and sent him an email. Once you know the email of one you can pretty well guess the emails for everyone else. I did talk to him briefly and he does give me a glimmer of hope, although I will wait to see what the update says in July...
Wait. Someone at Palladium actually replied to an email?
They'll reply if you aren't asking for refunds .
Mike had a working relation with them for a short bit, so I can see him being able to have a discourse much easier than the average backer could drum up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
n815e wrote: Yay for an entire table of the lifted knee battloid.
A full table of monoposes beats an empty table any day. But, it isn't like they couldn't have three poses or such for the battloid, sort of like what we have now...
Or, possibly, a newer, more polite version of "STFU, Peasants!".
I am sure that is what we will get; the plan is to keep this up until the statuette of limitations happens..
They are dragging their feet for a reason... I am sure there is a legal reason or loop hole to keep the money from the kickstarter
without completing it.. but for right now they just got to keep saying they are doing their job.. that's it..
A full table of monoposes beats an empty table any day. But, it isn't like they couldn't have three poses or such for the battloid, sort of like what we have now...
I realize we all have different opinions.
Personally, I'm not interested in filling a table with garbage miniatures or garbage terrain.
If one-piece, low quality junk was promised during the kickstarter, they wouldn't have gotten my money, despite my love of Robotech. Gumball machines across the world are filled with cheap mech miniatures. I'm not rushing with quarters to get those, I'm definitely not paying premium prices for them.
I know this is a minority view here, but I don't mind putting the models together. They could have done them better, they made some pretty bad choices on breakdown, but putting models together is an activity I enjoy.
The end result is decent, if fragile in parts.
Mike1975 wrote: No Scott is not the new owner. I was curious and sent him an email. Once you know the email of one you can pretty well guess the emails for everyone else. I did talk to him briefly and he does give me a glimmer of hope, although I will wait to see what the update says in July...
Wait. Someone at Palladium actually replied to an email?
I emailed him directly. It wasn't hard. Once you have one email you can guess the others. I spoke to him briefly and wished him luck but also will reserve judgement until July 4 and the update. I did send him some stuff that I had already sent PB way back when Jeff was there. None of it new to most of you. My name is one had for good and evil over there and I like it that way. I'm still keeping Dimensional Warfare going and nothing is going to get me to jump back on board with PB but I have no problem sending Scott stuff I had already done and explaining why I decided to break ties and he seemed to understand completely. I can understand the situation he's in just starting a new role myself and in something that I have little previous experience with.
A full table of monoposes beats an empty table any day. But, it isn't like they couldn't have three poses or such for the battloid, sort of like what we have now...
I realize we all have different opinions.
Personally, I'm not interested in filling a table with garbage miniatures or garbage terrain.
If one-piece, low quality junk was promised during the kickstarter, they wouldn't have gotten my money, despite my love of Robotech. Gumball machines across the world are filled with cheap mech miniatures. I'm not rushing with quarters to get those, I'm definitely not paying premium prices for them.
I know this is a minority view here, but I don't mind putting the models together. They could have done them better, they made some pretty bad choices on breakdown, but putting models together is an activity I enjoy.
The end result is decent, if fragile in parts.
Look the problem with Kev and PB or who ever was the inner circle of this great debacle. They went the cheapest route with minis because they (PB) wanted the money in their pockets. Minis were going to be your make or brake of the part of this game and they failed . The funny part is I don't hear or read about any complaints on the Zentraedi Battle pods , only the recon pod with the small parts. Me that no problem . The BIG PROBLEM was what they did to UNSPACY Mecha well we all know what happen there. Scotty is got this problem now , will see what come of it . I was on the RTTKS Forum site and like how some one over there is posting it all HG fault for this Failed KS. Really I find that funny because they (HG) can pull the license from PB and it game over for PB. Then again who in the Gaming company out there will want this dumpster fire of an IP? Well I don't know what going to happen now but wait until after Gen Con and the July 4 RTTKS update. Later P.S. Thanks Mike1975 for your post and the e-mail to Scott on this.
Cheapest route? I think it's even worse than that - I think in their quest to keep as much funds for themselves they actually got boondoggled with whoever made the UEDF forces mecha.
As for HG, they obviously don't care who they license the IP out to as long as someone's willing to give them a check. It's not like companies are beating down their door for a 30-year old IP that rightfully belongs to another company anyways.
I've learned a lot over the past few years of this KS. I just wish I had heard of gashapon before this KS came out, I would have instead invested in those and bought a couple of Mospeada Legios and Beta models insteading of investing in this fail.
Regarding the figures; I think there's reasonable gray space between "22 parts for a single 1.5 inch tall figure" and "single piece garbage".
There are ways the figures could have been *better* without needing to be *perfect*, and the lauded (alleged) goals of perfection are where PB has shown themselves to often get lost in the weeds.
I don't think anyone here wants gaktacular gak covered in an extra helping of gak, nor did we necessarily *need* 105% detail when they probably could've gotten 90-95% there with 1/2 the parts count.
Hindsight is 20/20, but I don't think it's worthy of kudos to have overdesigned figures that failed to acquire a user base.
Again, let's stay out of the extremes and recognize there's reasonable levels of discourse in between them. They failed to appreciate the market they were getting into, and somewhere along the line they locked themselves into these shenanigans.
Obviously this is a purely hypothetical exercise, with caveats and "IF" applied liberally, but I don't think it does us much good to have so little imagination (or so much anal retentiveness) to assume that "Perfect" and "Gak" are the only possible outcomes here, especially with such a subjective matter as this one.
But let's be real, if they'd managed to do the VT's in half the parts count with minimal reduction in detail or poseability, it's not like anyone would've been put out to need to spend less time making them, right? Like, it's a hobby, but 'busy work for the sake of busy work' misses the forest for the trees.
Well the minis could have been done with half part count and still have a decent detail. Who ever over at PB or ND thought this was the best route I don't know or some one in China told them (PB) to go this route. Well right now there is a lot of core set sitting in PB warehouse. Wave 2 is still not here and I don't think it will come. PB needs to do something or they WILL NOT HAVE A FUTURE because of this KS. We remember.
Over on one of the Update comments, you posit a plan that I think needs addressing.
That PB should do runs of some of the currently delinquent miniatures, for retail, and that it cycle those profits to do more, until the entire line is complete, and they can afford to ship to backers. If I've misinterpreted your plan, please clarify, and I'll retract this post.
While I understand the argument you're trying to make, it's glossing over several HUGE flaws.
First, is timing. Assuming it takes 4 cycles to get everything completed, you're looking at at least 6 months per cycle, to pay for the second with the profits from the first, the third with profits from the second, etc. So you're looking at +24 months for them to have the funds to produce the backer's run. You mention backers not being happy if retail gets it first. If they're getting it first by a matter of weeks or a month, that's one thing. If it's at retail 18-24 months before backers, it'll be so much worse.
Second, is funding. Where is the initial seed money coming from? If it comes from any remaining Kickstarter funds, that's arguably a huge issue. If it's coming from PB's business funds, that'd be less egregious. But then you've got to consider the marketplace. How big a print run do they do? The more made, the cheaper per item. But if they don't make a certain minimum amount, they're going to lose money on fixed operational costs. But would the market be there, for it to be profitable? People calculated that there were ~10,000 retail Cores made. It's been almost 3 years of retail sales (including significant discounting), and it's pretty clear that they've never had to restock. Sales at retailers appear to be anemic. The GenCon Tourney still hasn't hit minimum target levels. So would a print run in sufficient numbers to return the initial costs and make enough profit to fund the second cycle actually pay off?
Third, is trust. Given the obfuscation and lies that have come out of PB since the campaign funded, would you trust that any profits that did happen, would be rolled back into this campaign? It's been speculated that PB used Kickstarter funds to pay PB operational costs. And this has not to my knowledge ever been directly denied (they denied spending it on extravagences, but seemed to want to dance around denial of operational/retail spending). I think a lot of people would be skeptical that refinancing the Kickstarter in this way would have the money go where it should. The lack of transparency that PB has in this regard speaks volumes.
Again, I understand that you're trying to think outside the box to get a resolution. But I don't see this working. Because I simply don't think the market is there to reinvest, and I think it'd piss off even more backers. A small minority might be willing to buy expansions at retail, but the rest are just going to fume. And speculation and suspicion will run rampant, as PB continue to be secretive about the process. There's something to be said for entropy into apathy. Reminding people that they've been screwed over for 4+ years, would be worse than doing nothing.
And while it's theoretically possible that this could work out, and all backers get everything they're owed, I think the chances of that are less than PB investing the same funds they'd use for "cycle one" into lottery tickets and hoping they win the jackpot. While yourself and several others are committed to expanding the game by making your own product, and spending more, I think you're woefully overestimating the market remaining for this game. It's apparent lack of success at retail is proof enough.
Look the problem with Kev and PB or who ever was the inner circle of this great debacle. They went the cheapest route with minis because they (PB) wanted the money in their pockets.
Not the cheapest route, necessarily, but a route that was far cheaper than it should have been.
I have no doubt that they would have gone cheaper if they weren't restricted by what they promised and what they didn't know.
I have a genuine fear that they will send us wave 2 as cheaply as possible, with poorly cast, soft plastic junk in single poses that melt when you touch them.
I'm being extreme here for comedic effect, but I am afraid of what we'll get.
Was just looking at the latest update.. and Kevin is still writing them. Not Scott the guy hired for social media.. but the good news is there is no update for
Robotech tactics.. I guess he will leave that to Scott to report on the kick-starter page..
One thing I did notice was their new tumblers, they are NOT microwave safe or dishwasher safe... And you still pay $30..
So I can go get the same type cup at Wal mart for $7 that IS microwave safe and dishwasher safe.. Oh...forgot
those are only for super fans..
But again.. my question is where is the money coming from?? The kick-starter money should have dried up by now and with no
new major game that came out that is flying off the shelves .. Where is the new driving force money coming from??
Maybe its coming out of staff wages? Or more likely theyre lending it to kevin because they dont really need all that money for stuff like you know rent and food.
Genoside07, old Kev is WAY too proud of his IP, and super cheap so of course those fancy cups aren't safe for anything. I doubt they're safe for holding water.
As for his new bestie Scott, I think the poor dude is screwed. He opened up sounding professional, but still used the tried and true "waiting on quote" bs so I'm not really listening to anything the guy puts up with out actual proof they've done something. Have a good weekend, try not to think about the dumpster fire that is RRT as for myself I'll be throwing money at other games that are supported by their creators.
Morgan Vening wrote: Talizvar,
Over on one of the Update comments, you posit a plan that I think needs addressing.
Spoiler:
That PB should do runs of some of the currently delinquent miniatures, for retail, and that it cycle those profits to do more, until the entire line is complete, and they can afford to ship to backers. If I've misinterpreted your plan, please clarify, and I'll retract this post.
While I understand the argument you're trying to make, it's glossing over several HUGE flaws.
First, is timing. Assuming it takes 4 cycles to get everything completed, you're looking at at least 6 months per cycle, to pay for the second with the profits from the first, the third with profits from the second, etc. So you're looking at +24 months for them to have the funds to produce the backer's run. You mention backers not being happy if retail gets it first. If they're getting it first by a matter of weeks or a month, that's one thing. If it's at retail 18-24 months before backers, it'll be so much worse.
Second, is funding. Where is the initial seed money coming from? If it comes from any remaining Kickstarter funds, that's arguably a huge issue. If it's coming from PB's business funds, that'd be less egregious. But then you've got to consider the marketplace. How big a print run do they do? The more made, the cheaper per item. But if they don't make a certain minimum amount, they're going to lose money on fixed operational costs. But would the market be there, for it to be profitable? People calculated that there were ~10,000 retail Cores made. It's been almost 3 years of retail sales (including significant discounting), and it's pretty clear that they've never had to restock. Sales at retailers appear to be anemic. The GenCon Tourney still hasn't hit minimum target levels. So would a print run in sufficient numbers to return the initial costs and make enough profit to fund the second cycle actually pay off?
Third, is trust. Given the obfuscation and lies that have come out of PB since the campaign funded, would you trust that any profits that did happen, would be rolled back into this campaign? It's been speculated that PB used Kickstarter funds to pay PB operational costs. And this has not to my knowledge ever been directly denied (they denied spending it on extravagences, but seemed to want to dance around denial of operational/retail spending). I think a lot of people would be skeptical that refinancing the Kickstarter in this way would have the money go where it should. The lack of transparency that PB has in this regard speaks volumes.
Again, I understand that you're trying to think outside the box to get a resolution. But I don't see this working. Because I simply don't think the market is there to reinvest, and I think it'd piss off even more backers. A small minority might be willing to buy expansions at retail, but the rest are just going to fume. And speculation and suspicion will run rampant, as PB continue to be secretive about the process. There's something to be said for entropy into apathy. Reminding people that they've been screwed over for 4+ years, would be worse than doing nothing.
And while it's theoretically possible that this could work out, and all backers get everything they're owed, I think the chances of that are less than PB investing the same funds they'd use for "cycle one" into lottery tickets and hoping they win the jackpot. While yourself and several others are committed to expanding the game by making your own product, and spending more, I think you're woefully overestimating the market remaining for this game. It's apparent lack of success at retail is proof enough.
Many good points but I thought I made it clear the "assumptions" made for the proposed plan.
I have no illusions that market "demand" would be quite low which is to be rectified by their "relaunch" right?
I know, trying not to giggle here.
Yes, it will take forever to finally get it done and again I say: this changes the present timeline how?
As you stated, PB staying the course would be better.
Personal response to that is I will and shall write them off and never buy from them again, ever.
Any effort showing demonstrable efforts resulting in some product would be better in my mind.
They already set the precedent with the pewter products they are selling (not rewards mind, but parallel product all the same.)
You gave a lot of thought on problems with what I outlined and I appreciate that.
Would you have a plan to counter propose?
Palladium closing it's doors was another option which seemed more realistic.
It is because I pretty much now have what I wanted that I feel I can look at this mess with a more open mind.
Other than PB still wrongfully made off with my money, if this is to be the PB genuinely trying to finish: they have few options in front of them.
(edit) Ah, assuming you were posting as James E.: it is established you want no doubt of there being no wave2. It could have been stated without personal attacks: it undermines the integrity of your reasoning. As to underestimating the market? Put out the Super Veritech and the Armored Valk. kits and see what happens. Battletech has also floated this pipe-dream as well. It is not much, but it helps.
Morgan Vening wrote: Talizvar,
Over on one of the Update comments, you posit a plan that I think needs addressing.[spoiler]
That PB should do runs of some of the currently delinquent miniatures, for retail, and that it cycle those profits to do more, until the entire line is complete, and they can afford to ship to backers. If I've misinterpreted your plan, please clarify, and I'll retract this post.
While I understand the argument you're trying to make, it's glossing over several HUGE flaws.
First, is timing. Assuming it takes 4 cycles to get everything completed, you're looking at at least 6 months per cycle, to pay for the second with the profits from the first, the third with profits from the second, etc. So you're looking at +24 months for them to have the funds to produce the backer's run. You mention backers not being happy if retail gets it first. If they're getting it first by a matter of weeks or a month, that's one thing. If it's at retail 18-24 months before backers, it'll be so much worse.
Second, is funding. Where is the initial seed money coming from? If it comes from any remaining Kickstarter funds, that's arguably a huge issue. If it's coming from PB's business funds, that'd be less egregious. But then you've got to consider the marketplace. How big a print run do they do? The more made, the cheaper per item. But if they don't make a certain minimum amount, they're going to lose money on fixed operational costs. But would the market be there, for it to be profitable? People calculated that there were ~10,000 retail Cores made. It's been almost 3 years of retail sales (including significant discounting), and it's pretty clear that they've never had to restock. Sales at retailers appear to be anemic. The GenCon Tourney still hasn't hit minimum target levels. So would a print run in sufficient numbers to return the initial costs and make enough profit to fund the second cycle actually pay off?
Third, is trust. Given the obfuscation and lies that have come out of PB since the campaign funded, would you trust that any profits that did happen, would be rolled back into this campaign? It's been speculated that PB used Kickstarter funds to pay PB operational costs. And this has not to my knowledge ever been directly denied (they denied spending it on extravagences, but seemed to want to dance around denial of operational/retail spending). I think a lot of people would be skeptical that refinancing the Kickstarter in this way would have the money go where it should. The lack of transparency that PB has in this regard speaks volumes.
Again, I understand that you're trying to think outside the box to get a resolution. But I don't see this working. Because I simply don't think the market is there to reinvest, and I think it'd piss off even more backers. A small minority might be willing to buy expansions at retail, but the rest are just going to fume. And speculation and suspicion will run rampant, as PB continue to be secretive about the process. There's something to be said for entropy into apathy. Reminding people that they've been screwed over for 4+ years, would be worse than doing nothing.
And while it's theoretically possible that this could work out, and all backers get everything they're owed, I think the chances of that are less than PB investing the same funds they'd use for "cycle one" into lottery tickets and hoping they win the jackpot. While yourself and several others are committed to expanding the game by making your own product, and spending more, I think you're woefully overestimating the market remaining for this game. It's apparent lack of success at retail is proof enough.
Many good points but I thought I made it clear the "assumptions" made for the proposed plan.
I have no illusions that market "demand" would be quite low which is to be rectified by their "relaunch" right?
I know, trying not to giggle here.
Yes, it will take forever to finally get it done and again I say: this changes the present timeline how?
As you stated, PB staying the course would be better.
Personal response to that is I will and shall write them off and never buy from them again, ever.
Any effort showing demonstrable efforts resulting in some product would be better in my mind.
They already set the precedent with the pewter products they are selling (not rewards mind, but parallel product all the same.)
You gave a lot of thought on problems with what I outlined and I appreciate that.
Would you have a plan to counter propose?
Palladium closing it's doors was another option which seemed more realistic.
It is because I pretty much now have what I wanted that I feel I can look at this mess with a more open mind.
Other than PB still wrongfully made off with my money, if this is to be the PB genuinely trying to finish: they have few options in front of them.
(edit) Ah, assuming you were posting as James E.: it is established you want no doubt of there being no wave2. It could have been stated without personal attacks: it undermines the integrity of your reasoning. As to underestimating the market? Put out the Super Veritech and the Armored Valk. kits and see what happens. Battletech has also floated this pipe-dream as well. It is not much, but it helps.[/spoiler]
For starters, I'm not James. Just wanted to get that out of the way. I don't respond (or at least try not to) on the Kickstarter commentary. But I wanted to address your points, and I know you're a regular here.
Yes, SValk and AValk would probably be the most profitable of the unreleased items, though you'ld probably have to pair up the FPA or MPA with a UEDF one, as all reports I've read have Zentradi being fairly standard in army composition and gameplay, and giving UEDF more toys just makes trying to push the game more difficult. In addition, that'd require several things going right that PB have shown to be incapable of. I think the market for 30-40 piece Crusaders and Phoenix Hawks would be quite limited. And it still runs into the PR issue of "backers first". Some people are going to be very vocal if they're screwed on that again.
As for a counterproposal, I have one. But it'd never happen. Because it risks destroying Kevin's perception of just how unpopular he, his company and this game is. And it'd also require him to be honest. And he's not shown much capacity for that.
First, would be an assessment of how much liquid capital is remaining, and an accounting of where the funds have been spent, for Kickstarter related expenses (no, advertising and stock purchases for retail consumption DO NOT COUNT). If there's nothing left, then he needs to close his doors, liquidate all assets, and refund to the best of your ability. Because nothing can be done.
Second, a plan on how to complete the Kickstarter as listed, with reasonable cost breakdowns, from design to production to freight to shipping, shown to backers, so that people can have confidence that completion is achievable. And this needs to be convincing, because...
Third, calculate a reasonable pro-rata'd refund rate, and allow backers to opt-in. Similarly, allow anyone with confidence to be able to buy out pledges (this would be done as a passthrough, and NOT PB collecting money). If there's not sufficient uptake to hurt the amount needed to produce (hey, I'm not the one who's claimed it's only a handful of backers that are unhappy), then those people get out, and production begins. Else, see the latter part of the first point. This might be seen as a step too far, but it's been more than 4 years of jackassery. And it'll be even by Scott's optimistic guideline, 4 years late.
Simply put, it requires PB to be open, honest, accepting of criticism, and willing to put their responsibilities above their own personal needs. But if Kevin has the faith in his backers and supporters, and they have the faith in him, that he claims, it'd be the right thing to do.
So... ball's in his court. I bet he trips over it.
Indeed. Instead of focusing on the only question that matters, "Where the **** is the stuff?" people have let themselves get sidetracked by BS. Remember the great Gencon sales poll? Didn't matter, as Palladium was going to sell there anyway, whether backers had anything or not. But it caused much light and heat. And the much beloved Great Scale Debate? Pages of arguing about what scale models that were never going to be produced anyway should be. A masterful deflection by the king of double speak.
I am pretty sure that he intended to do further generations and wanted to know what opinions on scale there were. He doesn't strike me as a doer, just a dreamer, and in his 60ish years never learned that thinking of things doean't make them magically happen. This is why Scott may actually get stuff done.
Morgan Vening wrote: Simply put, it requires PB to be open, honest, accepting of criticism, and willing to put their responsibilities above their own personal needs. But if Kevin has the faith in his backers and supporters, and they have the faith in him, that he claims, it'd be the right thing to do.
So... ball's in his court. I bet he trips over it.
Good points but as point out, the method outlined is pretty unlikely as well.
That would be an assumption someone would like to do the right thing and may want to show some integrity prior to closing their doors.
If things were that grim and I was in charge, I would have a 3rd party accounting audit (like for public businesses) and be able to talk from a position of verified truth and then pose some of those options.
BUT knowing them, we shall just find a way to keep hitting paste on "we are working on it".
It will certainly be something for sale at Gen Con. But what will it be? One of the long-awaited resin pieces? An extra 5% off of all PB products over 5 years old?
Merijeek wrote: We've got a day. What will the exciting news be?
It will certainly be something for sale at Gen Con. But what will it be? One of the long-awaited resin pieces? An extra 5% off of all PB products over 5 years old?
Well, they do have a voucher in the GenCon booklet for 30% off pretty much everything. Which is uncommon. Most retailers sell at full MSRP at the con. But it's not a sign of desperation. Nope.
As for the "no later than" from Scott's introductory Update, in typical PB fashion, they've left it to the last minute. If it was done, he could have uploaded it yesterday, Scott has to take time out of his holiday to upload (and possibly write) the Update.
Personally, I'm not expecting much in terms of content. There might be a few backer relevant facts about a production schedule, but I doubt there'll be much in the way of physical proof in the form of the wire frame parts, or sprue layouts, PPP's or even just a progress list on all the items that was promised by Wayne a week shy of two years ago. And any "good news", I expect to be tempered with some bad news. Anything from a unilateral change to rewards, to deprioritization of backers, to something I can't even imagine. All I do know, is that I don't expect much. Because if it IS chock full of juicy details and information, then why have PB been sitting on it? It's not like Kevin is shy about boasting about progress, often well before it's justified.
Heck, I barely give it a 50/50 chance that the Update is not delayed. Illness, family obligations, power outage, internet outage, snowstorm (yes, I know it's summer in the USA). All excuses PB have used in the past. So just posting something will be an improvement. Or it could just be business as usual, and the next Update will start with "Sorry it took so long". All I know is, if the next Update is not impressive, and if it kicks the can down the road again, I expect things to turn, quickly.
I can actually imagine Scott had it written last week and it is sitting on Kevin's desk, waiting for approval... "Could you spend one damn minute not doodling or watching youtube to read the thing???"
n815e wrote: I can actually imagine Scott had it written last week and it is sitting on Kevin's desk, waiting for approval... "Could you spend one damn minute not doodling or watching youtube to read the thing???"
And of course Kevin asks... "Did you mention we are working on it??"
n815e wrote: I can actually imagine Scott had it written last week and it is sitting on Kevin's desk, waiting for approval... "Could you spend one damn minute not doodling or watching youtube to read the thing???"
Sadly, nothing new. Quotes are still ongoing, nothing to show, a lot of minor things (Secondary Backers, GenCon attendence), but absolutely nothing of substance. Release date this year unlikely.
But he'll be back in two weeks! Likely with more nothing. If that's all he could get in two weeks of working on it, then there's not likely ever going to be movement.
He had his chance, to show he was different. He stepped on his dick. It's the Palladium Way.
I didn't expect him to do much in 2 weeks. I'm not actively hopeful he'll do anything more than Chuck or Jeff did either, but IF he were to manage to turn things around (again, let's use our imaginations here, I'm talking about a hypothetical), I doubt it'd only be in a month or two of catching up and getting down to things.
I'll still give him benefit of the doubt (moreso than the old hands like Wayne and Kevin that is), if just because I'd like to see him succeed where they failed for years. I mean, getting more plastic to sell off or throw out would be fine with me, but someone stepping up and doing what they couldn't would be a nice enough schadenfreude for me.
Oh, Kevin would spin it as all him, but he's delusional enough that I'm sure the sun rises each day as he demands. We'd all know that someone finally did what they couldn't.
Yeah kind of my feeling also... just pushing the rock down the road...
Delay Delay Delay.. if we can not produce a product with in five years we get to keep the money.. or some other random loophole I am sure PaPa Kevin has found.
Would rather exploit it than do the right thing...
So just more words that mean nothing... Wouldn't surprise me if Palladium didn't attend Gen Con this year..
Forar wrote: I didn't expect him to do much in 2 weeks. I'm not actively hopeful he'll do anything more than Chuck or Jeff did either, but IF he were to manage to turn things around (again, let's use our imaginations here, I'm talking about a hypothetical), I doubt it'd only be in a month or two of catching up and getting down to things.
I'll still give him benefit of the doubt (moreso than the old hands like Wayne and Kevin that is), if just because I'd like to see him succeed where they failed for years. I mean, getting more plastic to sell off or throw out would be fine with me, but someone stepping up and doing what they couldn't would be a nice enough schadenfreude for me.
Oh, Kevin would spin it as all him, but he's delusional enough that I'm sure the sun rises each day as he demands. We'd all know that someone finally did what they couldn't.
I didn't expect much either, but it's well below what I'd consider acceptable after two weeks working on it.
Off the top of my head...
What are the quotes for? Is it for the final stage, with PB having the digital sprue layout templates? Or do they have to do that design work too? Do they have to make the sprue layouts from parts components (the wireframes we saw in early 2015), or do they have to do that too? Do they have to make the wire designs from the original digital sculpts? Remember, this was Wayne, almost two years ago.
"As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time. The short version is that some have been approved for tooling, some are still pending minor changes, and a couple are being reworked to reduce part counts while preserving detail. It’s going painfully slowly."
Give a simple, non-vague description of several items, and how that fits into the current manufacturers quote.
An answer on the Super 1D's (has a decision been reached on how these will be done?), resin components (what are the plans for getting these done?) and what's being done about the Roy/Rick G/F modes (it was rumored these were going to be generic G/F, but it was never confirmed).
Needing people to sound off in the affirmative to get ForceOrgs, instead of just being provided WITH this Update (it was initially promised in the big history of everything more than two years ago), was a missed opportunity.
An outline of a plan (12%?) being announced about what's being done for organized play, and what the nebulous "reboot" is going to look like, are two things he could have gone into detail on. Given it's only a half year, give or take (Heh), from happening.
All I know is if what he posted was all he could do in two weeks, I'm thinking it's going to be a long road of being strung along. It didn't have the self-serving bs we've come to expect from Kevin and Wayne, but it's just as light on information. And information was what was needed, IMO.
So, the new guy's "improved" plan is to go from pretending to get A quote to pretending to get ELEVEN quotes.
Well, gak. Certainly worth the benefit of the doubt.
That, and "Oh look, I've got a PDF. Let me know if you want me to post it so I have something to call a success in two weeks when I graciously post it."
Hope Scooter enjoyed those two weeks of benefit of doubts because he just became yet another person lying to 5,342 people on a regular basis about 1.44 million dollars. That will look good on your resume later I'm sure.
Scott is yet another blundering dullard added to the foundation of liars.
I heard a rumor that a major cause for all the delays is that the files for the 3d sculpts were "stolen" and that PB can't afford to replace them. I'm a bit skeptical since people stealing from Kevin seems to be the go to excuse on why things are doing so poorly, but I also wonder if a lot of that theft isn't done as revenge because he treats and pays his workers so crappy. employees get fed up and start looking for ways to damage the company. Typically when you have a long list of people engaging in similar and repeated behaviors it's because the managers are creating a toxic culture. I think that it's suspect that he'd have to fire people on a regular basis for theft as it just seems like it's far too many times to be simple happenstance.
I'm wondering if the freelance artist got shortchanged by PB and is claiming his files were hacked and stolen, regardless of if the loss is intentional or not it'd really just kill any chance of this ever being completed. While I don't normally take rumors at face value it would explain a lot of the smokescreens and why we've yet to see any render or prints of the wave two items apart from what ninja division had shown.
It's a digital fething file. If Kevin is so goddamned stupid as to not get a copy of work product that he has paid for (assuming he paid for it, which when dealing with a known thief isn't a sure thing)...
Or, you know, Dropbox. Box. Google Drive.
Although I expect Kevin thinks that any or all of those might have been specifically setup to steal from him. They're just playing the long game so that they can steal his IP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ...oh, and one more thought.
For those who suspect that this guy doesn't even exist? Note the fact he'll be skipping Gen Con because he has to finish up the master plan to save PB from KS.
Why would Palladium lie about adding someone to their company.. Its not like they have lied before??
Lets see.. 98% complete, just need the kickstarter money to start production. Everyone voted for Palladium to sale at Gen Con before shipping to backers. We are working on Robotech Tactics for the past four years..
We could start a game of it... Kevin says...
But I don't see it.... Why would they lie??
How many borderline bankrupt companies are able to add a person to a high level position on their payroll..??
I'm not terribly impressed with Scott's responses, but it does take some time to raise the Titanic off the ocean floor, so to speak. I'd be more impressed about the "ten other quotes" if PB had any money left to actually cement them.
Does seem the FOC is a distraction like the size and Gencon sales, though. They should have just posted that without even bothering to ask.
Still skeptical at this point, I still don't believe PB has the money - or the will - to finish this hose job.
Nobody is expecting miracles. However, at this point he is just regurgitating the exact same crap - combined with a ridiculously unrealistic "we MIGHT not make it this year" take on things.
But hey, my wife might have s supermodel waiting for me in the bed tonight . Since in Palladium world reality isn't all that important.
Merijeek wrote: But hey, my wife might have s supermodel waiting for me in the bed tonight . Since in Palladium world reality isn't all that important.
There are also times you must state that your wife IS the supermodel waiting in your bed.
Because sometimes you need to demonstrate loyalty to those you are tied to.
Scott has a marriage of his own to deal with...
This parallelism is getting creepy, I need to move-on.
cannonfodr wrote: So are they counting non-votes for the force org charts as a yes?
Also ironic that still no new renders for Robotech while DP9 releases an update with their 3rd render for their upcoming Heavy Gear kickstarter.
DP9 made a hella ton of mistakes during their Kickstarter, but they still managed to make Palladium look like a gang of clowns.
By my count, these were the DP9 mistakes:
1. Called out a $1 backer, back before Palladium... Sorry, I mean Rogue Heroes decided to make it a fad.
2. Failed to plan for the drop in value of the Canadian dollar/used KS funds to produce fleet scale Jovian Chronicles minis (no proof, but coincidental timing, just like the delayed Northern Gun books coming out after the RRT kickstarter).
3. Eliminated Tiger and Sidewinder stretch goals due to insufficient funds from 2.
4. Delays due to some of the original renders not compatible with the planned material/production method.
5. Plastics are skinnier than original metals. (uh, mouthwatering poseable minis?)
6. Miscast Jager V-engine vents and missing detail on Caprican mounts. This was rumored to be fixed for retail, but no fix offered for backers other than to paint in the missing details.
Speaking of retail when was the last time anyone saw DP9 stuff that wasn't gathering dust/heavily discounted in an actual store?
The only difference between DP9 and Palladium is that they don't have a wave 2 albatross around their necks and the new renders are showing that they are somewhat receptive to customer feedback. Yet DP9 has managed to complete 1 kickstarter and are on their way to starting another while Palladium continues to stumble along waiting for quotes. This says a lot about Palladium's (in)ability to get stuff done.
To me the whole eleven quotes thing makes it clear no work whatsoever has been done on the project in the intervening years, and if the eleven quotes thing is even true then this is the first moment anything has been done on Wave 2 at all. That's the kind of thing you do at the beginning of a project in the research phase. If Scott wants to sound legitimate, then next update they better have narrowed down that number and not be searching for other quotes from more sources.
The Force Org Chart thing is ridiculous. He should have simply said it would be up on DriveThruRPG before his next update, or gotten ahead of the game and said it was already on DriveThruRPG.
Scott has work to do and won't be going to GenCon. Doing a convention is work, but I like the tacit admission that what Palladium does at a convention isn't.
Merijeek wrote: Well, all the pictures always show the PB booth as being sooooooooo busy.
I had taken a picture during Anime North from the other end of the room where the PB booth was barren.
It had a lonely Wayne standing in the middle fiddling with his phone.
Even Kevin took off playing some RPG to one side with some 6-8 people.
I had one 20-something guy ask me what these guys were.
Biting tongue hard I said "They are an RPG company from back in the 80's to 90's."
"Oh, old school?"
"Very much so, Rogue-like with a non-intuitive user interface."
The Bayblade booth was absolutely hopping in comparison.
The only "benefit" to stopping by the booth was getting to hold the Armored Veritech knowing that was about the closest I would ever get to wave2 product.
It was very brave of Wayne to let a complete stranger be able to hold it... I thought he was going to have a heart attack.
Ah, the memories.
Missed Anime North this year... sad really.
Traded that with going to Thailand / Pattaya on business which was a whole different circus.
Was visiting suppliers for review, should have looked into injection molding, they seem to have a fair bit of automotive manufacture there.
Merijeek wrote: Well, all the pictures always show the PB booth as being sooooooooo busy.
I had taken a picture during Anime North from the other end of the room where the PB booth was barren.
It had a lonely Wayne standing in the middle fiddling with his phone.
Even Kevin took off playing some RPG to one side with some 6-8 people.
I had one 20-something guy ask me what these guys were.
Biting tongue hard I said "They are an RPG company from back in the 80's to 90's."
"Oh, old school?"
"Very much so, Rogue-like with a non-intuitive user interface."
The Bayblade booth was absolutely hopping in comparison.
The only "benefit" to stopping by the booth was getting to hold the Armored Veritech knowing that was about the closest I would ever get to wave2 product.
It was very brave of Wayne to let a complete stranger be able to hold it... I thought he was going to have a heart attack.
Ah, the memories.
Missed Anime North this year... sad really.
Traded that with going to Thailand / Pattaya on business which was a whole different circus.
Was visiting suppliers for review, should have looked into injection molding, they seem to have a fair bit of automotive manufacture there.
Wait!
You're not saying you're one of the ten eleven quotes, are you?!?
I sent this email to: kickstarter@palladiumbooks.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hi Scott,
I am a backer of this project. I would like a refund for the wave 2 models. 4+ years is simply an unacceptable amount of time.
Frankly, your updates are just like Kevin's. Talking to overseas manufacturers is the same story we've heard for years. And in this update you say that wave 2 for 2017 is not looking likely.
How about you answer questions that the backers actually care about? Namely:
1) How much money is left from the kickstarter?
2) What actually happened (a timeline with non-palladium sources would be ideal) with wave 2 up to this point?
3) A refund plan for those of us that gave PB an interest fee loan. For example, if wave 2 isn't in backers' hands by March of 2018, a prorated refund will be given for those that want it.
Do you realize that to some of us (and many people in the hobby board gaming community) that RRT is a laughing stock and a Kickstarter cautionary tale?
What many of the backers believe:
1) wave 1 was overstocked and that ate up much of the KS $
2) part of the KS $ was used to fund / dig out other struggling PB projects or projects that Kevin cares more about
3) PB only has a few years left before the clock runs out on any legal action and PB is just offering minimum platitudes to prevent any action from KS or a class action suit
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This was the response I got:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We do apologize, unfortunately Palladium Books is not offering any refunds as Palladium has successfully fulfilled shipping Wave One rewards and is working to continue developing and then shipping the Wave Two rewards once they are completed.
Alpharius wrote: Wait!
You're not saying you're one of the ten eleven quotes, are you?!?
No, wish I was.
I do supplier quality and my company is in a few interesting parts of the world and has a large variety of parts that need to be fabricated.
This is why I am rather... impatient when someone cannot get parts that are relatively simple made.
Material chemistry certificates, mechanical testing, dimensional results of tooling, submitted timelines, capacity planning, gauge repeatability and reproducibility studies, production part approval process, production failure mode and effects analysis... time consuming pain in the rear stuff.
They act like we would not understand.
I understand they have no clue what complex, difficult, hard work is.
They are the kind of supplier where I review their facility and question if there is any organizational structure at all.
If I hear one more special snowflake "we like to think of our people as artists!" one more time when they should be following an instruction or "recipe"... (Yes, I know some are ACTUALLY artists but they are all contract...)
I'm sure when Kevin asks if they'll 'do it on spec' for the exposure they laugh at him and he moves on to the next potential candidate. Rotate this request for free manufacturing all around China for four years and who can Kevin POSSIBLY be debating with? Again you'll notice Scooter wasn't actually involved in the call itself. What a maroon.
TwoGunBob wrote: I'm sure when Kevin asks if they'll 'do it on spec' for the exposure they laugh at him and he moves on to the next potential candidate. Rotate this request for free manufacturing all around China for four years and who can Kevin POSSIBLY be debating with? Again you'll notice Scooter wasn't actually involved in the call itself. What a maroon.
It is easier to speak the truth when you get to say "I was told that the supplier...".
He can claim no knowledge to what actually is happening.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HunterEste wrote: I'm horrified that this trainwreck is still going. You guys have my sympathy.
You are horrified?
There are no words for the sublime pain of a company being so wrong and acting like they are so right.
Alcohol, model glue and assembly of models without instructions cures all ills.
evancich wrote: Realistically, where did the $ go?
Sure, he over bought on wave 1 and had to do all of the setup costs for that and the starter box and all. How much do we think that was of the $1.44M?
How much went to bail out other PB nonesense?
How much does anybody think is left? I'd wager $0 is left.
evancich wrote: PB can't be that dumb.
Kevin: I have a great idea! Let's spend 100% of the KS $ on the setup costs, starter boxes, and wave 1!
Fanfriend: But, how we will create wave 2?
Kevin: We won't! max lulz
Uh no.
Picture that you get a HUGE deal when running production, setup costs are the big one.
So it is TERRIBLY tempting to ask for an extended run with the thought of selling in retail say even half of it and continuing with wave 2.
No harm no foul right?
I will never forget the update, "Two ships passing in the night" - where the ship full of Aussie-born boxes from New York passed the Europe-bound ship that departed Los Angeles.
evancich wrote: PB can't be that dumb. Kevin: I have a great idea! Let's spend 100% of the KS $ on the setup costs, starter boxes, and wave 1! Fanfriend: But, how we will create wave 2? Kevin: We won't! max lulz
Uh no. Picture that you get a HUGE deal when running production, setup costs are the big one. So it is TERRIBLY tempting to ask for an extended run with the thought of selling in retail say even half of it and continuing with wave 2. No harm no foul right?
I've worked with a US company that produces challenge coins through a factory in China.
For the mathematically challenged, the price goes down substantially the more that get made, from around $23 per coin for a set of 10, to $3.08 per coin for 200. This is because, as Talizvar notes, there's a baseline 'we don't even get out of bed for less than this' amount. Once that is cleared, there are breakpoints where the time, materials, labour, and other costs factor in at a much slower rate than that initial setup, and that translates into reducing the cost per unit.
So imagine PB finds a factory that will do the work, and between labour and the factory slot and printed materials and dice and more, they can get a core box done for about $25 US apiece for 10,000 units (a random estimate that should cover backers plus 2-3k left over for initial retail), but if they get 20,000 units that price comes down to $18 per box. $360,000 is more than they wanted to spend, but they're getting essentially twice as much for about 50% more, that's a hell of a bargain! (again, these numbers are purely examples, I have no idea what they paid for in molds and materials and labour and whatnot, simply trying to showcase how Economy of Scale comes into play because the topic has come up once more).
Then there's the secondary discussions of whether or not they did this with KS money (maybe? I have no idea) and if it was right to do so (or using EoS to get a better deal and get retail excess at a lower price? Questionable), and/or legal (I am not a lawyer, on the internet or otherwise, I have no idea).
I'm just trying to showcase how that sort of thing works, in my experience. A friend got some calendars made for her business, and they got like twice as much for a couple of bucks extra; similar effect, once the setup was done, the factory didn't really care if they printed 100 or 1000, they could mass produce them in essentially a similar timeframe once the heavy lifting was done.
There's also Kevin's dinosaur-like mindset that sees things like the Internet as a passing fad to be ignored.
And, since most people feel the same way, what this REALLY means is that the ~5,000 backers on that Kickstarter are just the tip of the iceberg. Plow all $1.44M into producing Wave One, and the incredible sales from Barnes & Noble, FLGS, Waldenbooks, Borders, and B. Dalton's will fund Palladium Books forever!!!!!!!!!
Merijeek wrote: And, since most people feel the same way, what this REALLY means is that the ~5,000 backers on that Kickstarter are just the tip of the iceberg. Plow all $1.44M into producing Wave One, and the incredible sales from Barnes & Noble, FLGS, Waldenbooks, Borders, and B. Dalton's will fund Palladium Books forever!!!!!!!!!
That's pretty much it. Palladium's not the only crowdfunding creator to make the "we'll recoup our costs from retail and make MEELLIONS" mistake. I've seen other creators do it, although only a Dragonthing company comes to mind. If you see a base game product of a KS game on clearance, that may be what's happening. Anyway, one thought is that, in the early days, creators used a "pre-order multiplier" because they didn't know what the "Kickstarter multiplier" was. This multiplier was a rule of thumb of estimating retail sales based on pre-order sales. So you might have a 10x pre-order multiplier, which means that, if you has 1000 pre-orders, you estimated 10,000 retail sales. As hindsight tells us, the "Kickstarter multiplier" is less than the "pre-order multiplier", meaning that, if you use the "pre-order multiplier" with KS backer numbers, you've just overestimated your retail sales, leaving you stuck with retail stock -- that you still have to pay for with warehousing fees, inventory taxes, etc. The money you spent for these retail products had to come from somewhere. Since you ran the KS because you didn't have the money in the first place, the money comes from Wave 2 and shipping, with the intention to recoup this money when the product sells at retail. Except it doesn't. So you eventually sell the stock at clearance, but this doesn't make enough money to pay for Wave 2 and shipping. For retail companies, they either absorb the cost from profits on their other product lines, or go out of business. But, with a KS creator, he still has backers who want their stuff.
evancich wrote: Realistically, where did the $ go?
Sure, he over bought on wave 1 and had to do all of the setup costs for that and the starter box and all. How much do we think that was of the $1.44M?
How much went to bail out other PB nonesense?
How much does anybody think is left? I'd wager $0 is left.
jaymz wrote: That pic is 1500+ copies of the core game right there. Iirc they were short shipped at that time and that was the first delivery.....
Don't forget, almost the entire first shipment was intended for GenCon sales. The only people who got anything before October (when the second shipment arrived) were the IIRC 200 or so First Contact backers. As they didn't ship any BC bags with that first load.
So that means that they were intending to sell the remaining 1300+ at GenCon. The "vote" was always a farce.
We're probably never going to see any details, like exactly how many retail boxes were bought, how they were paid for, or how many remain (despite regularly being discounted by 30%). Because it's likely just very bad news for PB.
Maybe we will get some answers over the next couple weeks, but I'm not counting on anything, let alone enough. We'll see. Only two (maybe three) more fortnightly Updates before GenCon.
jaymz wrote: Anyone interested in my conversion of all my rewritten robotech rpg stats to battle tech alpha strike?
I have all 3 generations converted and written, just need to do the proper datacards.
Okay, I will raise my hand on that one.
Were you also converting the other way BT to Palladium?
Thought I read that elsewhere.
Now you are going to make me look and compare the "unseen" Robotech units with their BT counterparts.
Okay, I am sorely tempted to try RRT as BT:AS and see if it plays better.
Who am I kidding?
I could bet money it does.
You making alternate stats for varying load-outs?
That path leads to madness!
Now I am being irritated with a thought on how to calculate some of this in an Excel sheet conversion...
Oh yeah, the "Monster" that could be fun all itself.
I'm not so sure that fhe intitial ship wave started with First Contact. I remember thinking I would be one of the folks to get a later shipment, but might went out with the very first round, and I was a Battlecry backer.
Also, just counting from the KS front page, they needed a minimum of 6,586 core boxes for backers, so that 1.5K boxes is a paltry sum of what they had on hand. Somewhere in one of the 60's updates on the KS, they have a box with the total number of boxes to be sent (3 cores per bx). It came out to somewhere around 17-18K boxes, as I remember.
The best photos of the amount of overstock they still have is from the Open House pics; they had the RRT players in the very back, next to the towering wall of RRT pallets remaining AFTER Wave 1 went out to backers and retail stores.
Stormonu wrote: I'm not so sure that fhe intitial ship wave started with First Contact. I remember thinking I would be one of the folks to get a later shipment, but might went out with the very first round, and I was a Battlecry backer.
Also, just counting from the KS front page, they needed a minimum of 6,586 core boxes for backers, so that 1.5K boxes is a paltry sum of what they had on hand. Somewhere in one of the 60's updates on the KS, they have a box with the total number of boxes to be sent (3 cores per bx). It came out to somewhere around 17-18K boxes, as I remember.
The best photos of the amount of overstock they still have is from the Open House pics; they had the RRT players in the very back, next to the towering wall of RRT pallets remaining AFTER Wave 1 went out to backers and retail stores.
Did you get your shipment before the October 4th shipping? Because I don't recall reading that anyone got a BC pledge from the Maxwell "Just missed GenCon by THAT much" Smart August shipment. Because I'm pretty sure I saw a few First Contacters and then nothing for two months.
I wouldn't take that picture as definitive. There were 9 containers needed for Wave 1 (Update 162. If what was shown is the entire container, then there literally wouldn't be space in those nine containers for the ~18K boxes, let alone the BC bags or the retail expansion packs (1.5K x 9 cont = 13.5K).
And yeah, that visual of the wall was pretty funny. I remember being at GenCon 2015, and they had a single pallet of those in the middle of their area. It was below shoulder height (so about maybe 8 high?) on the Thursday morning. Going through the dealer hall, at least three times a day, I don't ever recall seeing more than what had been there previous. And by the Sunday, it still had at least six high. So unless they were really sneaky, they sold less than two dozen. Last year, GenCon 2016, they didn't even bother. The stack was two piles of two or three boxes, with an additional box vertical on top (so, 8 total). I assume they restocked if and when they sold them, so I can't say with any certainty that they didn't sell any. All I remember was convincing one person not to buy (parts count + delay + no end in sight is a great anti-selling point).
evancich wrote: PB can't be that dumb.
Kevin: I have a great idea! Let's spend 100% of the KS $ on the setup costs, starter boxes, and wave 1!
Fanfriend: But, how we will create wave 2?
Kevin: We won't! max lulz
Uh no.
Picture that you get a HUGE deal when running production, setup costs are the big one.
So it is TERRIBLY tempting to ask for an extended run with the thought of selling in retail say even half of it and continuing with wave 2.
No harm no foul right?
I can attest to this, we had a woman at my work that constantly over-ordered promotional materials to get to the next price-point.
She just couldn't get the idea that getting a cheaper individual price was pointless if you spent more overall and were throwing away half of what was left.
Eventually cured her of over-ordering by making her responsible for recycling the old promo, suddenly the discount wasn't worth the extra work
Morgan Vening wrote: All I remember was convincing one person not to buy (parts count + delay + no end in sight is a great anti-selling point).
I don't get a chance to hang out at the FLGS much, but right after Shadow War Armageddon came out, I went in looking for some of the GW terrain pipes.. During the long conversation
the clerk was hitting me up for what I played.. Catching the RTT box out of the corner of my eye. I asked him how RTT was going.. This guy had great things to say about everything
But, basically said they have not sold one in over a year and removed it from the clearance area because it wasn't selling.. Said the manager was considering it as a give away item
at the next big event.
So most game shops know about the kickstarter quagmire now and most gamers react to the mention of RTT as if you passed gas.. Yet, Palladium is convinced they did nothing wrong
and plan to continue (or at least they say they do). Even if the pull wave 2 off.. What game stores will order it??
Did you get your shipment before the October 4th shipping? Because I don't recall reading that anyone got a BC pledge from the Maxwell "Just missed GenCon by THAT much" Smart August shipment. Because I'm pretty sure I saw a few First Contacters and then nothing for two months.
Looking back through the KS, I see I got my box October 9th, 2014. Oh, well.
I was talking about this KS to some non-gamer friends last night. For some reason, I care about RRT now...
They were vaguely familiar with KS, but hadn't backed anything and I explained how KS changed the board game landscape.
Their first question was: what stops somebody from taking the $ and running?
I went into RRT.
They said, "Did he buy a nice house with the $?"
And I thought, Kevin is such a screw up that he couldn't even imbessle correctly. Rather than use the $1.44M as a golden parachute, he has a bunch of almost worthless RRT starter boxes. And even when he made that mistake he couldn't get out of his own way to recover and not kill the game that he has thousands of dollars in inventory in.
n815e wrote: If he had stolen it properly, he would have spent it all on action figures anyway.
Agreed.
We all claim good ethics until the latest minis come out by a favored supplier.
Then we look at the budget, squint really hard till we cannot see the numbers, then buy the "needed" models and pray the consequences are not too grim... Maybe he has a secret stash of role-playing game books from other companies!
I could just see an estate auction being a real surprise with that guy.
BTW, never offer to paint some figures for a non-gamer.
I got taken up on the original Zombicide characters to be painted up.
We are looking for Hero-click painting quality, right???
Unfortunately I painted a really good wizard for my brother (the model was awesome and luckily I was suitably inspired to paint very well) a few years back so the expectations are higher.
So the sister-in-law really identifies with the roller-skating-waitress-with-chainsaw (my brother can occasionally make good decisions, she was one of them)
I was recently driving through the neighborhood and saw an estate sale sign so we stopped in - I was hoping for a freezer for the garage.
Anyway, assloads of action figures and such. Rooms and rooms of it.
Basically none of it moving.
You have something from the 1970s or before? Great. It's worth something if it's in good shape. But almost anything still in the package is valueless - because it was bought to be a collectible, and so there's loads of them out there. And yours isn't worth what you paid for it.
Yeah I know a few people went in heavy on the mid 90's star wars figures.. Thinking that one day they would be worth something.. but they over produced them
and everyone else did the same thing... Almost like the first issue of Spawn.. or a first printing of Rifts RPG.. not worth much unless you can find someone that just
really wants it.
I was thinking... this kick starter is starting to hit the "I don't care phase" there is a ton of people that is considering it a lost and just giving up.. There is over 5000 of
us many buying multiple copies. The worst thing for Palladium is for everyone to stop complaining. That means there is no one out there left that has any interest left.
Also one week is gone and another before the next update... And it will be "we are working on it"... that's what Kevin said... more words and nothing more.
Genoside07 wrote: Yeah I know a few people went in heavy on the mid 90's star wars figures.. Thinking that one day they would be worth something.. but they over produced them
and everyone else did the same thing... Almost like the first issue of Spawn.. or a first printing of Rifts RPG.. not worth much unless you can find someone that just
really wants it.
I was thinking... this kick starter is starting to hit the "I don't care phase" there is a ton of people that is considering it a lost and just giving up.. There is over 5000 of
us many buying multiple copies. The worst thing for Palladium is for everyone to stop complaining. That means there is no one out there left that has any interest left.
Also one week is gone and another before the next update... And it will be "we are working on it"... that's what Kevin said... more words and nothing more.
It is a good observation.
It is a sad thing when complaints are the main means of advertising.
Maybe the kickstarter page will "benefit" from my absence.
Maybe just post "Meh" every month or so.
What to do with this thread?
Post results from those who bravely continue with the RRT hobby?
Too bad most "progress" I have is with 3D printed stuff.
Maybe when I am done with my Zombicide figs I can have a go with the Monster.
I really need to see what it does to a Pod Scout squad.
I'm well aware that most of the stuff I collect and spend loads of money on is worthless to just about anyone other than me.
If a person collects things thinking that they are going to flip it and make loads, they are throwing money away.
Collect stuff that you at least value on some level. When you die, your family will sell it or give it away. Hopefully it will find its way into the hands of a fellow enthusiast instead of being landfill.
n815e wrote: Collect stuff that you at least value on some level. When you die, your family will sell it or give it away. Hopefully it will find its way into the hands of a fellow enthusiast instead of being landfill.
Have no illusions that aside from those on Dakka or my local gaming club, anything I have would probably be landfill as far as my wife or relatives are concerned.
Any of my hobby work has a better chance of survival as board game pieces, chess sets and dioramas I have made.
I had been "cured" of collecting stuff.
I think my brother shot-up every last Star-Wars figure I had with a pellet-gun.
I was told fire-crackers packed into the Millennium Falcon was spectacular.
Ever feel like those monks who make intricate sand drawings only to have someone run a broom through it the moment it is done?
It is supposed to be a lesson in not being attached to things... the act of making a thing of beauty should be reward enough.
Now if only I can stop getting models faster than I can complete them, wave 2 is going about the right speed.
You have something from the 1970s or before? Great. It's worth something if it's in good shape. But almost anything still in the package is valueless - because it was bought to be a collectible, and so there's loads of them out there. And yours isn't worth what you paid for it.
I see this all the time with Pokémon cards at the flea market. Sellers will have a bundles of 20 of random cards from the early 2000s for $25 a piece, and just don't understand that the game has zero legacy play so the cards are worth as much as the cardboard they're printed on.
We're cleaning out my office for another bedroom, so I pulled all of the toys I've collected over the years out of storage to sort. Having it all in one place was overwhelming. I have four 30 gallon totes of toys I now need unload (mostly Power Ranger zords, fwiw), and I feel like I still kept too much.
But again.. the going price for Robotech Tactics main box set is about $65 with a MSRP of $99
But if you had a nicely painted one, I am sure you could find someone that would pay at least $125 for it..
You are adding value to a product, most of the time it works... Some times its just a way to lose more money.
Same as for the Spawn Comic, the grading alone adds value.
Back on topic a little.. Was looking at Scott's postings again... First was ship by 2017, talking to manufactures.. Everything is great, Everything is Awesome.
Second post, I think he is finding out how messed up everything really is... Changed to now missing the 2017 ship date and still working with manufactures, nothing to report.
So are we starting a betting pool on what the next posting will be??, Maybe start getting get bipolar messages from here on out.. Next post will be everything is grand and I
just spoke to Kevin and he said everything is great...That I should ignore the big meanies in the kickstarter comments and the evil den of Dakka Dakka.
With a back and forth like that I think it would confuse most of us... Something can not be both great and awful at the same time...
Back on topic a little.. Was looking at Scott's postings again... First was ship by 2017, talking to manufactures.. Everything is great, Everything is Awesome.
Second post, I think he is finding out how messed up everything really is... Changed to now missing the 2017 ship date and still working with manufactures, nothing to report.
So are we starting a betting pool on what the next posting will be??, Maybe start getting get bipolar messages from here on out.. Next post will be everything is grand and I
Not a bad point - I suppose this next update will be the one that might let us know what's up at Palladium Towers now.
Alpharius wrote: Not a bad point - I suppose this next update will be the one that might let us know what's up at Palladium Towers now.
That is delightfully optimistic. Or I would submit it will be an update on how masterfully Scott can describe inactivity on a continental drift scale of speed.
Alpharius wrote: Guess no one really is going to be paying for their kids' college with 'rare' and/or 'valuable' comics from the 90's after all!
Of course, collectibles are 'worth' what someone wants to pay for them...
That Spawn #1 going for $75-ish is great for the seller, but it's still not rare or valuable.
No, if we are talking about truly rare and valuable stuff from the 90s, that's easy/. Someone who had "invested" $1,000-ish into boxes and sat on them would have quite a nest egg today.
Completely unlike RRT. Not even the big Robotech / Macross toys have inflated like that, though they have kept pace with inflation.
Alpharius wrote: Not a bad point - I suppose this next update will be the one that might let us know what's up at Palladium Towers now.
That is delightfully optimistic. Or I would submit it will be an update on how masterfully Scott can describe inactivity on a continental drift scale of speed.
Well, by that I meant that if Scott continues to choose the 'vague path', we'll know that it really is 'business as usual', meaning, nothing is actually happening.
If, however, Scott gives us an actual detail or two, something concrete, then there still might be a bit of hope here.
I am surprised this is still being talked about. Not having time to go through 300 pages, what exactly has pissed everyone off? The lack of more product? Did people pay for things they haven't received?
I actually picked up the main box set when it came out. While I have a huge appreciation for Macross, I feel 'Robotech' is kind of an abomination. However its neat to see the robots in mini form. But I wasn't crazy about the game mechanics. If I never actually sit down and build the models, let alone play the game, I am not sure I'll be that disappointed.
I guess I see it as a bit of a novelty item than a hobby in itself.
I am a big collector of the original 1/200 Nichimo kits (later the Testors R.O.B.O.T. series and even later TCI Unseen mechs), so I have a lot of these kits.
KTG17 wrote: I am surprised this is still being talked about. Not having time to go through 300 pages, what exactly has pissed everyone off? The lack of more product? Did people pay for things they haven't received?
I actually picked up the main box set when it came out. While I have a huge appreciation for Macross, I feel 'Robotech' is kind of an abomination. However its neat to see the robots in mini form. But I wasn't crazy about the game mechanics. If I never actually sit down and build the models, let alone play the game, I am not sure I'll be that disappointed.
I guess I see it as a bit of a novelty item than a hobby in itself.
I am a big collector of the original 1/200 Nichimo kits (later the Testors R.O.B.O.T. series and even later TCI Unseen mechs), so I have a lot of these kits.
Others will go into far more detail. The heart of our discontent is that Palladium Game's owner, Keven Siembedia, has constantly and consistently berated and lied to everyone about his Robotech game. For those of use that got into the Kickstarter, what five years ago? We are still waiting for 1/2 of the Kickstarter product promised to us. The Wave 2 that has never materialized, is constantly in development, a new deal with a Chinese manufacturer is being negotiated, re-tooling of the models, exploring different shipping options... the excuses go on and on and on. Combine that with the lack of any comment or action at all by Harmony Gold (who own the Robotech brand in the US, and doing their to kill it), and the Robotech RPG Tactics game is dead.
Doesn't help that the rules are crap too. Dumpster fire as a matter of fact.
KTG17 wrote: I am surprised this is still being talked about. Not having time to go through 300 pages, what exactly has pissed everyone off? The lack of more product? Did people pay for things they haven't received?
We paid for the KS stuff (to the average tune of $160-$320, before shipping) on may 21st, 2013, to get stuff (that was 98% done, according to them) by December 2013.
We got the core game stuff over about 6 months depending on where exactly did you live on the planet, starting October 2014 (about a year late for most people), and some time after it got sold to the general public on... Black Friday, I think? Anyways, it didn't get sold before just because the stuff didn't arrive on time for Gen Con.
Now, the core game stuff, which was then called "Wave 1", it's composed of about... 30-40% of the sculpts that got Kickstarted, so there's a whoooole lot of stuff still owed, both as part of the core pledges and as add-ons.
Fast forward to nowadays, summer 2017. From around march 2015, we've been regularly fed on a strict bs diet, with no end on sight. And we paid for all the stuff owed four years ago, so there is no chance in hell we'll be getting any kind of refund.
Because this is complete shenagins, that's why most of us are mad.
Oh, and finally got a response to a message I sent them last week. Which finally enough is the same message I sent them last year at this time.
July 6, 2017
"Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."
What is the timeline for completing Wave 2 items or the resin objectives?
What are your plans to obey this portion of Kickstarter's Terms of Service?
user avatar
Palladium Books
July 12, 2017
Hi Robert,
We sincerely understand your concerns and
issues with the RRT Wave Two production delays.
Palladium is working on RRT Wave Two and if all
goes well as we are "anticipating," then Wave Two
will not only be produced and fulfilled for the
Kickstarter, but with positive improvements as we
desired based off the release of RRT Wave One.
With that being said, as we review the quotes
coming in and the possible projection dates, it
has not yet been determined as to which quote PB will utilize as this is a major project with many
units and we are seeking to not only reduce part
count, but also preserve the reward quality.
Project Manager, Scott Gibbons will continue to
post progress and answer questions in the
upcoming RRT Kickstart updates in order to keep Backers informed.
Thank you for your support,
RRT Support Team
Palladium Books
Palladium Books
July 12, 2017
Sorry about that Gene,
Multi-tasking and meant to say Hi "Gene," not Robert in the previous email.
KTG17 wrote: I am surprised this is still being talked about. Not having time to go through 300 pages, what exactly has pissed everyone off? The lack of more product? Did people pay for things they haven't received?
We paid for the KS stuff (to the average tune of $160-$320, before shipping) on may 21st, 2013, to get stuff (that was 98% done, according to them) by December 2013.
We got the core game stuff over about 6 months depending on where exactly did you live on the planet, starting October 2014 (about a year late for most people), and some time after it got sold to the general public on... Black Friday, I think? Anyways, it didn't get sold before just because the stuff didn't arrive on time for Gen Con.
Now, the core game stuff, which was then called "Wave 1", it's composed of about... 30-40% of the sculpts that got Kickstarted, so there's a whoooole lot of stuff still owed, both as part of the core pledges and as add-ons.
Fast forward to nowadays, summer 2017. From around march 2015, we've been regularly fed on a strict bs diet, with no end on sight. And we paid for all the stuff owed four years ago, so there is no chance in hell we'll be getting any kind of refund.
So yeah, bit salty.
Alby and others have covered most of the big issues. But don't forget all the other little shenannigans that caused issues of their own. Being late isn't the only issue. I've got a campaign delivering later this year that's almost as late, but I'm not close to as irate as I was with RRT.
I'll probably miss some things, but here's a non-comprehensive list. Some dates may be off, but they should be close.
- May 2013, campaign concludes, and Kevin says on target for December, maybe earlier. Pledge manager runs, and this timetable is kept. Pledge manager runs from July 19th to September 8th (having been extended twice I think). Up to, and through to September 26th, they were still expecting a December release. The book hadn't been completed, the cards hadn't been done, no molds had been made. There was ZERO chance that December was a possibility. So while they were collecting money, everything was still on track. This wasn't as big an issue at the time, but in hindsight it was terrible.
- July 2013. The first GenCon-gate, during the Pledge Manager. Kevin decides he wants some convention exclusives for GenCon. So they did a run of Max Battloid and Miriya FPA. And you could get them at GenCon. And ONLY GenCon. Backers, many international, who had literally just pumped $1.44M into RRT were excluded unless they were at the convention. The reasons this was an issue, is because firstly, it was the only Max branded miniature made available. Second, all Kickstarter Exclusives were considered Kickstarter/Convention Exclusives, but wasn't reciprocated (note, I'm not a fan of KS Exclusive game content, but even I thought that was a crappy double standard). This has since become a non-issue, as Kevin graciously allowed backers to buy them, and now, they're completely non-exclusive, despite Kevin still using that phrase ("Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Convention Exclusives – now available to anyone") in the latest PBWU.
- January 2014, we get the split wave announcement. At the time, most people were OK with this, but it established the first "kick the can". Wave 2 is promised later that year. Then later that year, nope, it'll be 2015. Then late in 2015, nope, 2016. Then late in 2016, nope, 2017. And Scott's big Update shows that the kicking of the can is imminent. Usually, there's a leak, I believe Adepticon 2016 (April?) someone got told 2016 wasn't possible, but it wasn't until much later that year the can got kicked. Simply put, after having done it with Wave 1, they KNOW how long it takes from when they have all the ducks in a row, how long it'll be. But they won't share how far along they are, and they wait until WELL past the deadline, rather than getting ahead of things.
- March 2014, we finally see the first breakdown of parts. And that's when things went right off the rails for a lot of people. It took me three days, but that's how long it took me to make the decison to request a refund on over $1500US. And I got a letter very similar to what sqir666 just posted. It wasn't multitasking, it was copypasting that caused Gene to be incorrectly addressed. Some people have had little issue with the number of parts. Some have. But nearly everyone agrees that the parts count is WAY above the norms for this kind of model. Especially for the base box miniatures. And because they were on such a tight schedule, redesigning was out of the question. But instead of saying that, we were told that they had to be done this way. I spent my early adulthood in die casting (aluminium mostly, some other soft metals). They absolutely did NOT have to be done this way. And technology has improved since then, Wyrd's use of "sliding core" technology allows them to do Witchling Stalkers as single piece models. Here's an article dated almost a year before this announcement, showing the details achievable. Granted, backers were promised multipose, so multiple pieces were always on the table, but 10, not 30 should have been the maximum.
- July 2014, Kevin is looking at GenCon as his first big payday. There's multiple parts to this, and some didn't become a known issue until later. First, despite 15 months of saying "Backers First!", Kevin unilaterally decides GenCon doesn't count. After much outcry, he then proposes putting it to a vote. But instead of just putting his thumb on the scale, he stands on it. Instead of trusting that enough commentors would rally to his defense, he states at the outset that anyone who doesn't vote, will count for a yes. And this causes things to go crazy. Of course, when the votes are tallied, and he's won without that, he only uses those numbers (78% of backers that voted), Only about 30% of backers voted, according to one backer who was collating. So the ACTUAL number should have been a little over 93% if you include the 3500 absentees that didn't vote.
Just to be clear, it wasn't that he wanted to sell at GenCon, it was that he completely rigged the system so he could. And as I said in a post a page or two back, it was always inevitable, hence the rigging. The declaration of intent was made on July 11th, the vote was started on the 13th, the vote concluded on the 21st. But on the 18th, three days before the vote was finished, "It’s on a Boat!". Why this is important, is that this container appears to have contained nothing but Core Boxes and possibly some retail Expansions. They were very cagey about not saying it explicitly, but it's pretty clear they could not fulfill Battlecry's until Container 2. Why is this a problem? Because only ~200 backers went in for First Contact (Core Boxes only, for Wave 1). Meaning that the remaining 1300 Core boxes were only suited to retail sales.
- September 2014, this didn't cause a problem until later (and there was an earlier though harder to see picture, but the third photo on the "Back from China" Update clearly shows that 17,502 core boxes were ordered. And only about ~6000 were needed for backer fulfillment. When it seemed clear that money for Wave 2 may be an issue, those extra 11,000 boxes seemed the obvious reason. Taking advantage of mass production to get a cheaper rate is one thing. Using backers money to purchase retail stock is another.
- November 2014, Palladium wrap up shipping to North American backers. And decide to ship to North American distributors before finishing international orders, because of Black Friday. This, despite as mentioned earlier, MANY statements that said "Backers first!". This caused...
- January 2015, while the EU and AU orders were still yet to leave the country, Robotech Tactics was available in EU and AU stores. Because unlike Palladium, distributors don't feth around. Palladium said this shouldn't have happened, but it was always going to happen. Note, at this point, PB hadn't even organized shipping for AU backers. Pallets just sitting in the warehouse, "waiting for quotes". Final delivery doesn't start until mid March. So some backers waited more than three months beyond when they could get it in the store.
- March 2015, the first showing of actual development of Wave 2 since the wave split was announced, 14 months earlier, about 8 months after Wave 1 development finished, and about 6 months after Wave One manufacturing concluded. Despite a promise to the contrary ("More will be coming in the following days."), it was also the last. There has literally been no sign of developmental progress in 28 months. There were some 3D printed prototypes for the AValk and YF-4 last year, but these were done of the digital sculpts that have existed since around when the funding campaign had just wrapped.
- June 2015, after months of silence, a lot of noise in a big update about nothing. Instead of addressing Wave 2 properly, Kevin loses himself congratulating himself on how awesome he is, how other people let him down, and spruiking new content (Conventional Vehicles and Invid) and promising backers first! Neither of these two production lines ever saw the light of day, because takeup was low. And one reason takeup was so low is that unit/force information was promised, and never delivered, despite multiple promises. So people were expected to preorder units not knowing what they did, how many were needed to purchase, or if there were any restrictions that might have been important.
At the same time, Palladium decided that despite it having been discussed during the campaign, and having made a firm decision, they'd also re-open scale as a discussion point. It apparently didn't occur to them until two years after the campaign, and a year after they'd finished developing Wave 1, that the third generation in particular, might be too small at the scale originally chosen. So, despite wanting to put the Invid into production in less than six months (contemporaries of the cyclones that are the prime reason for the change), and that the Conventional forces would absolutely be 6mm, they throw up the very real possibility that they'll backtrack on consistent scale. For me, relative scale isn't a huge issue, but for some, it absolutely was. Thankfully, Palladium didn't put their thumb on the scale, again, but it was cause for consternation for some.
- July 2015. I'll let the second para speak for itself.
"As for Wave 2, I’m working on a big breakdown of where each and every component is in its development, but that’s going to take some time. The short version is that some have been approved for tooling, some are still pending minor changes, and a couple are being reworked to reduce part counts while preserving detail. It’s going painfully slowly."
Yeah, that time is two years, three days, and counting.
Basically the summation is,
PB promise Wave 2 and don't deliver.
PB promise progress of any kind and don't deliver.
PB promise information and don't deliver.
Communication is unimportant to PB.
Bad reputation is unimportant to PB.
There's no real consequence to PB not finishing the Kickstarter or improving in any way.
PB do what they want for the most part, and backers are irrelevant.
Most backers appear to be owed at least half of their content by value, and at least a third of their content by volume (for some, especially those who got in heavy on Add-Ons).
Scott may be the latest in a long line of PR people put out to distract and take some of the flak. That list so far, IIRC. Ninja John (John Cadice, Ninja Division), Jeff Burke, Wayne Smith, Chuck Walton and now Scott Gibbons.
So, will things change? We'll see this week. I wonder when (if?) the Update will drop.
I read PB update I got in my email. BOY OH BOY !! What load of crap. I live in the great state of Michigan and yes the weather have been bad. A lot of rain northern part is getting flooded but we have been getting some nasty storms . We Michiganer deal with this its part of living in Michigan when you get 4 season in one day. I just don't know why he put all that crap in his company update with all of their Staffs problem. To me it sound like a lot their books are going to be very late. Wave 2 no new sales or new information. Oh Well later.
DEZOAT wrote: I read PB update I got in my email. BOY OH BOY !! What load of crap. I live in the great state of Michigan and yes the weather have been bad. A lot of rain northern part is getting flooded but we have been getting some nasty storms . We Michiganer deal with this its part of living in Michigan when you get 4 season in one day. I just don't know why he put all that crap in his company update with all of their Staffs problem. To me it sound like a lot their books are going to be very late. Wave 2 no new sales or new information. Oh Well later.
This is my view of what the kickstarter update we will get from Scott in a few days.... First paragraph will be talking about the weather... Second will be some type of joke... "Take my wife.. No, seriously, Please take my wife"..
We also just got an update from Palladium and I don't think Kevin would allow Scott to steal his thunder if something big happened the past few weeks.
So kick the can some more... maybe talk about Gen Con in a few weeks... Makes me think talking to the Department of Justice about this and see what happens.. Even most Senators like to have something to
So one of their fan friends found out and immediately went running to PB with this news. Which caused some kerfuffle because they weren't informed that their "good friends" at HG issued a license to somebody else, even though they're both business trying to make a quick buck off of the Robotech IP.
PB issued this statement the other day about this whole shenanigans.
We've received several inquiries about a recently discovered website that is announcing a new board game based on Robotech®. This board game is not one of our projects. We reached out to Harmony Gold about it and they let us know that, with the Sony movie in the pipeline, we all should start seeing limited licenses being announced in the coming months for many new Robotech products. We are excited for our friends at Harmony Gold and wish them and all their newest partners great success!
Why would PB be concerned, this other company is making a boardgame (hopefully with minis) so it totally wouldn't compete or clash with RPG tactics game accessory pieces (which are totally not miniatures, or models cause of reasons!)
stanman wrote: Why would PB be concerned, this other company is making a boardgame (hopefully with minis) so it totally wouldn't compete or clash with RPG tactics game accessory pieces (which are totally not miniatures, or models cause of reasons!)
Y'know, I don't think anyone truly knows why PB would be concerned about a Robotech board game. Maybe they thought it would steal their thunder and possibly rain on their parade for RRT?
I'm fairly certain HG will never get another licensing penny out of me...but where's this announcement? I'm just seeing second hand references to...something.
Merijeek wrote: I'm fairly certain HG will never get another licensing penny out of me...but where's this announcement? I'm just seeing second hand references to...something.
Sorry, I don't know how to do the website qoute thing on my mobile browser.
What's this? Surely the years of buying licenses from HG would have instilled some sort of loyalty that would prompt HG to contact Palladium if other companies were seeking some sort of board game license? Surely!
Alpharius wrote: Maybe that boardgame will actually also be able to function as...WAVE 2?!?
At this point, I have far more confidence in *both* of those board games reaching customer hands than RRT Wave 2. Despite seeing no production anything for either of them.
Huh, Attack on the SDF-1 looks like a variant Castle Panic - or maybe Battlestar Galactica (aka, Are You a Cylon?) to me. The Ace Pilot almost sounds like it'll be a dice game, like Zombie Dice.
On the flip side, that PBWU is so full of . Mr. gRifts brakes go out? Sounds suspicious. Scott has a team? Doubly suspicious, since I'd infer a "team" is two people or more, three if it has a leader...
Of course, I also laughed about their reluctance to do a PB Open House and that Scott had to "push" it was doable. I think anyone who had any sense would know that for a struggling company like PB, having a weekend where potential customers come and play YOUR games in a space owned by YOU should be a no-brainer - and done EVERY year.
I really need to start back working on my RP products for sale. If these clowns can "make a living" at it with less than a book per year, surely I should be able to. Guess I'm not enough of a snake-oil salesman.
Merijeek wrote: I'm fairly certain HG will never get another licensing penny out of me...but where's this announcement? I'm just seeing second hand references to...something.
Sorry, I don't know how to do the website qoute thing on my mobile browser.
So, does this mean Palladium now is going to have the Crisis of Harmonius Goldenium Treachery? Unca Kev could sit smug that he was the ONLY licensee pumping out Robotech junk but now that HG is chumming the waters it may be time to worry. I'm sure Kevster is screaming that HG is being a BETRAYER by daring to give other companies a shot at doing more than finger their collective sphincter for four years.
If the license gets pulled/runs out do we get refunds/answers as to how Unca Kevvy screwed up? I mean, if they have no license that obviously have no way to finish the project.
TwoGunBob wrote: So, does this mean Palladium now is going to have the Crisis of Harmonius Goldenium Treachery? Unca Kev could sit smug that he was the ONLY licensee pumping out Robotech junk but now that HG is chumming the waters it may be time to worry. I'm sure Kevster is screaming that HG is being a BETRAYER by daring to give other companies a shot at doing more than finger their collective sphincter for four years.
If the license gets pulled/runs out do we get refunds/answers as to how Unca Kevvy screwed up? I mean, if they have no license that obviously have no way to finish the project.
Normally when a license is wrapping up, the licensee is given sufficient time to wrap up (or cancel) any work in development, and then some more time to offload or scrap any existing stock.
Being this is Palladium, and their ability to work to a timeframe is non-existent, I don't see them capable of finishing under an established schedule. So whether they try or not is unknown. What is known is that if they don't, thet ARE legally on the hook. Especially as they've had sufficient time. They might have had a case HG were responsible if HG had pulled the license early in 2014. But not now.
Now, I don't actually expect HG to pull the license. The only licensor that's as pathetic as their licensee is the HG/PB relationship. The AvP one os probably as disfunctional, but it's got another decade or two of mismanagement before it comes close in terms of breadth of incompetence.
Stormonu wrote: On the flip side, that PBWU is so full of . Mr. gRifts brakes go out? Sounds suspicious.
Was the implication that a backer finally became so disgruntled, they tracked him down and cut his brake lines like some bad B-movie revenge plot?
BTW, isn't PB only licensed for the RPGs, for which RRT is a spin-off, rather than a standalone board game? PB stretched their RPG license to produce RRT, rather than taking out a board game license. Right?
JohnHwangDD wrote: BTW, isn't PB only licensed for the RPGs, for which RRT is a spin-off, rather than a standalone board game? PB stretched their RPG license to produce RRT, rather than taking out a board game license. Right?
That was an argument made during the campaign and that someone else had the license for miniatures. But it just never passed the smell test for me. If someone did have the license for miniatures I can't see how they would lose a challenge.
I think the more likely actual reason for the argument is soopagenius Kevin wanted his RPG branding right there in the title. There'd be no question anyone playing or picking up the box, wouldn't be reminded there's an RPG that people can check out too. Kevin might be considered special when it comes to writing, but he's anything but, when it comes to marketing.
They're "m.facebook", which means the mobile version, which of course looks absurd when viewed on a monitor an order of magnitude or two bigger than it was intended for.
JohnHwangDD wrote: BTW, isn't PB only licensed for the RPGs, for which RRT is a spin-off, rather than a standalone board game? PB stretched their RPG license to produce RRT, rather than taking out a board game license. Right?
That was an argument made during the campaign and that someone else had the license for miniatures. But it just never passed the smell test for me.
Kevin might be considered special when it comes to writing, but he's anything but, when it comes to marketing.
I consider Kevin to be a "special" person with "special needs".
JohnHwangDD wrote: I consider Kevin to be a "special" person with "special needs".
I think he serves more this purpose:
Speaking of that!: Waiting on our "update" from our new friend at the kickstarter.
Am I a sap for hoping they have ANYTHING concrete to say but doubting it very much?
My opinion of Scott's contributions so far aren't particularly high, but I think people are being overly uncharitable to suggest "From here on out, I personally will be posting updates every two weeks - even if nothing has changed I will check in to let you know." is day specific.
Just because the first and second ones were Tuesdays doesn't mean that the third one has to be. As long as it's some time this week, I'd consider that reasonable.
Not that I expect there to be anything of substance regardless. Just don't see a point in spending the next few days hearing about a broken promise that isn't. Wait for a broken promise that is. Because that's inevitable.
Merijeek wrote: Morgan, here in the USA the 4th of July is a pretty big holiday. Basically everyone outside of retail has off work that day.
The fact that he made sure to post on the 4th seems like he is most definitely sticking to a "two weeks = 14 days" schedule.
Meh.
People are free to feel how they want. I just feel holding him to a schedule not specifically declared, is as Forar said over on the Kickstarter Comments, just looking for a reason to get outraged.
Wait until he misses this week, or until he posts the expected wankery. It'll be here soon enough.
Eh, he's on Central time, I'd expect if it's today it'll be about 4 PM CST or so.
Its just EXTREMELY frustrating how short the attention span seems to be at PB. It's like Kevin has a cask of Amontillado and a trowel for his employees after they've been at work for a couple of weeks. Then he just posts as them every six months to provide "proof of life".
I just feel holding him to a schedule not specifically declared,
He did declare a schedule. Here's what he said at the very end of the last update:
As I have previously promised you, I will be back again no later than two weeks from today with another update - that is Tuesday, July 18th.
But I think the only question is whether he'll give another non-update on time or merely be "too busy" to post an update.
I stand corrected. My eyes must have glazed over by that point in the lengthy Update saying not a lot.
So forget everything I said in my earlier posts.
He's got four hours then. He came close to missing his weekly Murmur too. He mentioned getting Kevin to do one on Sunday but that didn't work. Getting Kevin to work to schedule is a fools errand.
Wonder if the workload and the sense of futility is getting to him yet.
He made it and WOW!!!!!!! Real information!!!! I feel there's some real progress!!!!! It went from getting quotes to getting quotes is HARD!!!!!!!! Six weeks and Scooter has crushed all Palladium critics. He's proven wave tu is just around the corner. Ah rats, Chinese New Year!!!!
Contrary to expectation, there are a lot of details. But about process (which might have been interesting three years ago), and not about progress.
That it's been two weeks, and that people were asking for it immediately, the Force Orgs haven't been put up yet. Because having something of substance (as opposed to theory), wouldn't be PB.
Same with any Renders. Any day now... *headdesk*
And that's about it. More (slightly) than I was expecting, but nowhere near what is needed.
a) Hiding the weekly embarrassment from the Truly Faithful by removing the regular "totes working, swearsies" from the PBWU.
b) "I have people reviewing the old files now to make sure that there are no game-play/balance issues with them, and then will do the art and graphic design. Once the charts are ready they will be released as a free PDF on DriveThruRPG." Snerk.
c) "with the Sony movie in the pipeline, we should start seeing limited licenses being announced in the coming months for many new Robotech products. " Okay. So, HG, with Sony supposedly making progress on the movie, is flogging stuff with all the non-movie art and such? I guess that's interesting.
But, hey, keep pretending that you've actually got a chance to make it Wave Two. After all, we won't get 100k comments without continual verbal handwaving.
Since I have taken over communications for RRT Wave 2 with regular, every other week posts, I have requested that Kevin forgo mentioning RRT Wave 2 in the Weekly Updates. This will be the main place for updates; only occasional mentions of RRT will be in the Weekly Updates when we feel it is truly warranted, such as reaching major milestones or have exciting news. Of course, upcoming events involving the RRT game – such as tournaments and organized play – will continue to be mentioned when appropriate in the Weekly Updates.
Manufacturing Quotes and the Process of Getting Them
We got three new quotes at the end of last week, a refined quote from the factory that we’ve been dealing with as well as initial quotes from two others that we had reached out to. We are currently analyzing the information in the quotes - a task that is not as simple as it may sound.
Several people have reached out to me in comments here, through e-mails and by phone since my last Update, asking that I give greater detail about just what goes on with setting up a major production like Wave 2, i.e. - getting a quote. So for those who are curious, please read on (if you’re not interested, you can skip down to the next bolded title).
The process of getting a quote is not as simple as picking up the phone and calling the manufacturing plant. Once we have identified “manufacturers” we feel have the capabilities for the project, we contact them to set up an initial meeting. (The “manufacturers” are usually either brokers who work with several factories, or the English speaking sales team of a Chinese manufacturer. For clarity, I will just refer to both as brokers.) In the meeting we go over the project with the broker, letting them know what exactly we need in the finished product, quantity and rough time line, special needs or concerns, and other details. Most brokers represent more than one factory/manufacturer, and they sometimes have to consult with them before being able to tell us if they can fulfill a production's needs and what they will require or can offer.
Next, we submit a spec sheet with the basic specifications for the products we want them to manufacture. The spec sheet for Wave 2 is a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet with 300+ lines and 7 or more columns. We send the spec sheet as well as a few 3D model files that are representations of the work that needs to be done to the broker. The broker then reviews the information and can ask for clarification on points, or additional info.
Once the broker feels that they have enough information, they reach out to their manufacturing contacts to see which, if any, plants have the capacity and capability to take on the project. They send them the spec sheet along with the model files and our expressed wishes about quality, quantity, and schedule to the plant(s) that are interested.
Now comes the long part. With most of the manufacturing plants being in China, they start off by translating the English information into Chinese. Unfortunately, translation is not an exact science, and there are sometimes interpretation errors that crop up, leading to back and forth exchanges between the manufacturer and the broker. If the broker doesn’t know the answer, they contact us. Sometimes it takes several of these exchanges to get the issue resolved. It doesn’t help that not only do these exchanges have to be translated back and forth between languages, but also very different time zones.
When the manufacturer is finally confident they have enough information, they look at their capabilities, put together a plan on how they intend to accomplish the work, figure out costs and time, and put together their quote. These quotes are not just “we can do the job for $XXX and have it to you by XXX”. They instead are broken down into their own spreadsheet as well as a written summary – all of which have to once again be translated into English. The quote itemizes details such as part count, material costs (and alternatives if the manufacturer has them to offer), projected time lines, work methods, a projected delivery date (for when the production run will end, not when it will be shipped – which is our job to set up – or when it will arrive to us), and other matters. The manufacturer sends the quote to the broker, who will go through it themselves looking for any obviously missing data or mistranslations. If there are any issues to be addressed the broker will try to do so, which can be another back and forth exchange, and then finally the quote gets back to us to review. We may have questions or concerns to address or clarify.
At the end of all this, we will get a draft contract for the work, which itself will need to be closely scrutinized to make sure it addresses EVERYTHING that we’ve worked out with the manufacturer. Any changes that need to be made have to be negotiated, which is facilitated by the broker. Once that process is done then we can finally enter manufacturing.
Wow, that was a lot of words. So how does all that apply to our current situation?
The thing to remember is the manufacturers are companies made up of people like you and me - people who are trying to do their jobs in the best and most efficient way possible - but putting together a quote takes time on their end, and time on ours. The manufacturer wants to do the quote as fast and well as possible in order to minimize their costs, time expenditure and to better their chances of getting the job (manufacturing is extremely competitive, and every manufacturer knows that any job they bid on is not in the bag until they have a signed contract). At the same time the manufacturer has to make sure that they can deliver on what it is they are promising. And it takes time on our side when we get the quote to see exactly what is being promised, and making sure it fits what we need. That's where we are at right now.
We will continue working with the manufacturers, going back and forth with them as described above until we have completed the process and gotten Wave 2 done. I know it is a long process, further complicated by the large scope of this project, but I want to reiterate that we want you to get Wave 2, and we want to see RRT become the game it deserves to be. I appreciate your patience as we continue this project.
Now to answer some of the questions I’m sure many people will have:
Question: Couldn’t a more experienced manufacturer, one who has done this sort of work a gazillion times and knows all the ins and outs, speed up this process? After all, they’ve already done it!
Answer: Unfortunately manufacturing detailed figurines is not linear when going from one game line to another. Just as one manufacturer may be great at producing organic forms such as fantasy characters and monsters but have problems depicting vehicles and mecha, while another is the exact opposite, and a third can’t do it all. Manufacturing processes that work for one company’s games and requirements won’t necessarily work for another’s. Thus our need to carefully scrutinize the quotes, to make sure that we (and you) get quality rewards for RRT Wave 2.
Question: Why not cut out all the translation problems by just going with a company in the United States?
Answer: Cost. The fact of the matter is that we want to make RRT into a growing, expansive game that will bring joy to fans for years to come. Unfortunately, manufacturing in China or somewhere comparable offers the most affordable way to be able to have a viable game that makes enough profit to support itself.
Question: Are we going to get RRT done by the end of this year?
Answer: Here are some details from one of the quotes as to a (rough) time line for production once the quoting process and contract are finished and signed:
● Pre-production (going over figurine files, making molds, etc.) = 5-6 weeks.
● Production = 10-14 weeks.
● Final Assembly (putting things in packages, etc) = 1-3 weeks.
At the time of this writing there is just under 24 weeks left in 2017. Using the estimated time line above, then yes, "technically" the RRT Wave 2 rewards could indeed be done by the end of the year. However, this estimate does not take into account things like sample reviewing, changes if necessary, approvals, where we may fit in the manufacturer’s schedule (they have obligations to other clients), possible delays (another job runs over, a machine breaks down, etc), overseas shipping, loading and unloading times, time in customs, time to ship the containers from the West Coast to us here in Michigan, or time for us to ship Wave 2 out to you. While the RRT Wave 2 production may begin/finish in 2017, it would be overly optimistic to say that they will be in your hands by the end of 2017.
Force Organization Charts
Thank you to everyone who responded to my question about the Force Org charts in my last update. I have people reviewing the old files now to make sure that there are no game-play/balance issues with them, and then will do the art and graphic design. Once the charts are ready they will be released as a free PDF on DriveThruRPG.
A New Robotech® Board Game – Not by Palladium Books
Last week we received several inquiries about a recently discovered website that is announcing a new board game based on Robotech®. This board game is not one of our projects. We reached out to Harmony Gold about it and they let us know that, with the Sony movie in the pipeline, we should start seeing limited licenses being announced in the coming months for many new Robotech products.
We are excited for our friends at Harmony Gold and wish them and all of their newest partners great success!
Questions and Answers
Question 1: Why ask for people to update their shipping info (Ship To address, email, and phone number) now when you are nowhere close to actually shipping us Wave 2?
Answer 1: It is true that we are nowhere close at present to shipping you your RRT Wave 2 game pieces. However, by keeping our shipping information up to date, once we finally do get Wave 2 in our warehouse, we should only have to update a few addresses of backers who have moved in just the last month or two, instead of trying to update everyone who has moved since Wave 1 was shipped. Basically, by doing the majority of the work now we make the actual shipping easier, quicker and more efficient when that day comes.
Question 2: Where are the new renders you talked about in your last Update?
Answer 2: My sincerest apologies for the delay. The renders will begin posting as I can get to them in the next few days. I had hoped to have them up before now but other business matters took up my time and focus.
Final Thoughts
I hope everyone is having a safe and fun Summer.
For those who are interested and going, there will be an organized RRT game at Gencon. We should have photos from the event posted to our Facebook page during and after Gencon.
As I have previously promised you, I will be back again no later than two weeks from today with another update - that is Tuesday, August 1st.
The question(s) I have are these, PB previously worked with a company before to get the wave one models done. Since there's a tangible baseline with the wave one process and quality why not use that company again? Was it the difficulty of shipping and fulfillment the cause? Was there a falling out? Were bridges burned that prevent PB from finishing with the original factory and manufacturer? What exactly is the cause for having to get a whole new list of companies for quotes and production? Where did the project breakdown at and what is being done to prevent that from re-occurring?
I'm puzzled as to why the change in manufacturers is needed to begin with.
So the short version is they're still getting quotes, and getting quotes takes time. If only they had been able to work on that the past several years.
The Force Org Charts can't be posted yet because no one has looked over them. If only there had been more time.
And can't post the renders. There just wasn't enough time. If only there had been some time in the past several years, but everything was so busy.
At least Unca Kev won't have to contaminate the main update with RRT stuff. He'll only have to do that if there is progress, and we all know that's an impossibility.
paulson games wrote: The question(s) I have are these, PB previously worked with a company before to get the wave one models done. Since there's a tangible baseline with the wave one process and quality why not use that company again?
That company may have been through Ninja Division.
Also, that company may not want to work with PB again....
Anybody got a link to the non-PB Robotech board game?
There was a consolidation in China a couple of years ago wrt the brokers and the factories. I wouldn't be surprised if the wave 1 factory or broker are run by different people at this point. Or the wave 1 broker doesn't deal with the wave 1 factory anymore.
It simply doesn't take this long to do this. I had a few containers of cables and iPhone cases made in China back when the dock connector was dropped.
It goes like this:
1) talk to a handful of brokers. Some will be in cahoots, but it is easy to figure that out based on the quotes
2) pick your poison and park some $ with the broker
3) they build your things. The main rub here are no mulligans. You get at best what you designed
4) you likely get some samples to inspect
5) you pay them and they ship
I had my designs in hand and initial contact to signed contract and evaluating 8 different brokers and like 30 factories was 2 weeks. 4 months later the stuff was on a ship.
Sure, PB has to make some molds and get those to the injection factory, so at worse maybe another step, but I'm certain this has been worked out many times before.
Oh well, reading the info about the quotes was enlightening, but like others their past timeline just makes no sense. And though we generally despised the first manufacturer, you have to wonder what happened to them.
It does sound like Scott is actually trying to light a fire under their butts, or at least has the tenacity to try. But it sounds like he's doing it through gritted teeth, uphill - both ways.
"● Pre-production (going over figurine files, making molds, etc.) = 5-6 weeks. "
Lolwut? Have you not actually counted up the number of sprues that are needed? You won't get properly tooled dies in that time.
To reiterate: THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN HAVE THIS ALL DONE BY THE END OF 2017.
Not a diss, simple fact.
Stop messing around with multiple brokers / manufacturing quotes and just use a confirmed, reliable manufacturer that can actually handle the majority of the conversion work you'll need doing in-house:
I worked with these guys' stuff in preproduction phases and it's decent. They even have sliding core methods available which would help massively in reducing part count and seam location and they've got a solid US presence. By far the best 'all in one' solution, and they've handled everything from titan-size mech kits (widely reknowned as beautiful models) to small scale infantry.
That's about the only helpful thing I feel inclined to share. Your 'update' uses a lot of words to say precisely nothing we didn't already know. It is bad, and you should feel bad. It's politician speak, greasy and unpleasant.
The ONLY reason to continue with this current 'seeking quotes' bollocks is because you haven't got enough money to do the job properly, so you're trying to half-ass it. PB tried that before and it backfired massively. You're doing the same again. Seen it before, it's a shell game and we're all quite tired of the bs.
So, answer this:
Where's the Money, Scott?
How much Wave 1 stock is PB sitting on right now?
How much liquid capital is left in the kickstarter account?
Remember, collectively we pumped WELL OVER $1.4m into this shitshow. We deserve some answers as to where that money went, because it's obviously not going to get Wave 2 done any time soon.
GabrielV wrote: So the short version is they're still getting quotes, and getting quotes takes time. If only they had been able to work on that the past several years.
The Force Org Charts can't be posted yet because no one has looked over them. If only there had been more time.
And can't post the renders. There just wasn't enough time. If only there had been some time in the past several years, but everything was so busy.
These are all very good points, and really do need to be addressed.
Just what the hell *has* been done in all of this time?!?
Anyone else want to guess what stupid stipulations PB have had in the terms for their quotes?
"Must make mouths water"
"Must cause Alex to say the miniatures redefine the genre even though he isn't a fan of the miniatures genre"
"In the event of Kevin having to redo your work as it does not meet Palladium Books high standards, you will not be paid"
Alpharius wrote:Just what the hell *has* been done in all of this time?!?
I am sure he is busy with pedicure and manicures, I heard Kevin loves a good foot massage.
Joyboozer wrote: "In the event of Kevin having to redo your work as it does not meet Palladium Books high standards, you will not be paid"
High standards or Kevin standards.. there is a big difference between the two.. even crazy homeless people have options and high standards..
like everyone should wear aluminium foil on their heads so the government can't read their mind.
RTT is become a joke...so I guess I can only make jokes also..
I have to keep reminding myself that the new "communication" having some measure of punctuality is nothing to be grateful for: it is pointless when the "information" is not helpful and insipid.
I guess it is hard to let it go when you know you are being lied to at worst, or they are being evasive at the bare minimum.
Holding my money with no recompense makes me wish I could invoke loan-shark methods of collection. I am sure they knee'd the money, but broken promises are not the way to go about it.
I really think Unca Kev's real fault is that he saw the $1.44M as a vote of confidence in PALLADIUM and not a confidence in Ninja Division and nostalgia for Robotech. Kevster saw the money as Palladium money and NOT exclusively Robotech money and spent it like it was his to do with as he pleased because the money was raised because people love him and his company, not the project itself.
I think if he were called to count for the funds he would totally not see spending Robotech money on Palladium RPG toilet paper as a misappropriation of funds. The money was given to Palladium after all for Kevin to do with as he saw fit. He unfortunately saw fit to squander it incorrectly and is now caught lying his pants off because the Palladium bank account statement shows insufficient funds to even court a new manufacturer. Now he's caught in a tail chasing situation of trying to raise funds to pay back the Robotech project but he's damaged his reputation so badly that no one is buying the stuff he's trying to sell to raise capitol back to infuse into Robotech.
It's all speculation on my part, of course. This just seems to be the financial framing that Unca Kevster wants to keep quiet because it will be the dominant footprint Palladium will leave in gaming history. How I misspent $1.44M and ruined my company. Not quite the legacy Kevster was hoping for in his old age.
jaymz wrote: And now someone is calling for citizens arrest..... Just.....wow. Lol.
WAT?
James Edwards wrote:Are there any backers in Michigan that would be willing to go to PB's office and execute a Citizens Arrest against Kevin, Wayne and Scotty for fraud?
Citizens arrests are actually legal in Mi :-)
As much as I'd love to do it myself I'm not able to take enough time off of work to get there myself :-(
"Most states have codified the common law rule that a warrantless arrest may be made by a private person for a felony, misdemeanor or "breach of peace".[1] A breach of peace covers a multitude of crimes in which the Supreme Court has even included a misdemeanor seatbelt violation punishable only by a fine. The term historically included theft, "nightwalking", prostitution and playing card and dice games."
What about MAKING dice and card games? Maybe we could get Unca Kevster for making games of ill repute. Nightwalking is close to "Nightbane" so there's another possibility.
"Freeze, Unca Kevvy! You're under citizen's arrest for Nightbaning and failing to EVER Mechanoid in Space!"
There was this thing in my daughter's class where all the kids (due to some being obsessed with cats) would start meowing whenever the teacher's back was turned. Really pissed her off.
So for a gift we got her the "Exploding Kittens" that would meow whenever the box opened.
So, the latest PBWU is up, and as per the recent "restructuring", it'll be the Kickstarter Updates that are going to be the primary source of information. That it only took them several years to figure this out, is progress of a sort, I guess.
The Update starts with "The last few weeks have been a blur. Heck, who am I kidding? The first half of this year has been a blur. So much going on. A lot of it very good and the rest very promising." Yeah, there's a reason the first half of the year has been a blur. Because you've approached your work ethic like a drunk on a three day bender.
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Information Consolidation
Since Scott Gibbons has taken over communications for Robotech® RPG Tactics Wave 2 and he has instituted a bi-weekly update on the Kickstarter page, he has requested that we consolidate the way we get information to the RRT backers. We’ll be doing that mainly on the Kickstarter page, and post about RRT and Wave 2 here when we feel it is appropriate, such as letting you know when manufacturing has begun, new product releases, upcoming game events involving RRT (there are several at Gen Con), tournaments, organized play, etc.
Yeah, because you don't want Scott spoiling your big news where you get to pat yourself on the back, do you, ya frikking donkey cave cretin.
It's been a while, so let's check in on what PB have produced.... <operation timed out>. Yup. Still nothing since last November. Dakka's search function isn't working, so I can't easily find my last one of these. Through Google I found one from early June.
HOH Arsenal, Disavowed, Garden of the Gods and Sovietski have remained static as "Summer".
Atlanteans has gone from June/July, to August. Guess they needed SOMETHING for GenCon.
Dark Designs has gone from July 15th (a specific date!) to August. Still pimping RAW.
Face of Death still listed as Summer/Fall.
And Living Nowhere went from an 8 week project (first announced June 9th, due July) to August after Dark Designs is done. The manuscript got turned in last week (so why was a release date mentioned?), and given Kevin's history, he'll have to rewrite huge chunks of it so he can add his name to the credits.
With three books listed for August and four more listed for Summer (September 22nd), anyone want to take the over on more than 1 book before end of Summer? I really want some easy money.
And in what's arguably a phyrric win, one of the two official Robotech Tactics tourneys for GenCon has hit minimum attendance levels at FOUR people! Woo! Glad to see there's such strong support and demand for RRT. Feel sorry for the TO that uptake isn't there, but he should have expected it given during the time when there was any hype, they didn't get much in the way of participation. And I still think that not having an active participant (whether it be an employee or a dedicated fan friend) who gives a rat's arse about the game, is one of it's biggest issues. Go to any other gaming community, and you'll find an employee or employee-approved friend participating in conversation. But noone at PB and noone they approve of, seem to be interested. So why should anyone else?
When the company that is selling the product cannot be bothered to give an effort and periodically falls on hard times financially and tends to communicate in a paternal tone, how long can they go until it is no fun for even the most dedicated and "abused" fan-friends?
"Criminally" lazy behavior: full-stop.
I have said it before, these are incredibly good times for gaming. There is so much good product out there, it is surprising to me that RRT is noticed at all. 40k, X-wing, Armada, Bolt Action and Battletech/Alpha has pretty much buried the game for me. There are hordes more good games out there (Malifaux I have some stuff...) that I cannot begin to play since you have to stop somewhere.
I should not be too concerned.
Kevin has made it clear that role-play is where it is at, so RRT is a mere distraction from a real man's game. I am sure their revenue reflects that.
Talizvar wrote: Kevin has made it clear that role-play is where it is at, so RRT is a mere distraction from a real man's game. I am sure their revenue reflects that.
Oi. I'm a roleplayer at heart, even more than a minis gamer (hell, I work translating RPGs)... please, don't stick all of us in the same category as Kevin Siembieda .
Well it look like SMG who is doing Robotech board game got their act together and it not a KS . It will out mid 2018. Now will PB get Wave 2 out before the Board game. I think not Scott string us long time with professional talk which we all know is BULL CRAP. What the hell I think HG needs to drop PB after 2nd Q 2018 if Wave 2 is not in production at the beginning of 2018.
DEZOAT wrote: Well it look like SMG who is doing Robotech board game got their act together and it not a KS . It will out mid 2018. Now will PB get Wave 2 out before the Board game. I think not Scott string us long time with professional talk which we all know is BULL CRAP. What the hell I think HG needs to drop PB after 2nd Q 2018 if Wave 2 is not in production at the beginning of 2018.
I think SMG realize that any link to RTT will automatically sink your kick starter.
Even if HG dropped PB and Kevin was forced to say what happened to the million dollars, He would drag his feet like he is already doing and would never see a real answer..
As the moderators of the rifts games said, they talk to their lawyers a lot so they know the limits they can get away with ... And Kevin is sitting comfortably in a kick-starter loop hole..
Maybe the Department of Justice needs to give Scott a call..maybe that would grease the wheels a little..
Moreover, Studio Nue needs to drop HG. Kill the snake at the head, so to speak. HG's antics have been part of why we can't the rest of Macross and the like outside of Japan. I really feel if HG (& PB) were out of the way, we could really get some quality products (and maybe new animation) that would breathe life back into the old girl.
Have you guys seen that HG is now suing Piranha games, Hairbrained Schemes, and Catalyst Game Labs for copyright infringement ? Same old unseen lawsuit but amped up.
The implications are rather interesting considering the crossover business between RRT and Battletech.
Swabby, I noticed that. HG needs to drop palladium while their at it.
Anyhow, for the hell of it I sent this over to scooter:
Dear Palladium Books,
I respectfully request a refund on my undelivered portion of my pledge(wave 2 items). I feel this project has failed to move forward. Of the m,any updates since wave 1 only 2 of them showed any forward progress. All of the other updates over the last 2 1/2 YEARS can be boiled down to "sorry but we'll have news soon", "working on reducing parts count", and what seems to be the favorite to use "getting quotes". I find this unacceptable and want a refund for the undelivered portion.
John Null
I bet I don't get a reply. I all ready know a refund will be flatly denied. I'll post up their reply for the fun of it when i get it.
Swabby wrote: Have you guys seen that HG is now suing Piranha games, Hairbrained Schemes, and Catalyst Game Labs for copyright infringement ? Same old unseen lawsuit but amped up.
The implications are rather interesting considering the crossover business between RRT and Battletech.
Really? Link?
I find it hard to believe that after the previous go around, that Catalyst and friends wouldn't make sure the crossed every I and dotted every T before introducing the ReSeen.
As long as the did their due diligence, just gives me.more reason to despise Harmony Gold. But I also concede that sometimes, people feth up. But the exact same IP issue that screwed FASA? That'd be a monumentally stupid decision.
Unfortunately, Palladium Books is not offering
any refunds as Palladium has successfully
fulfilled shipping Wave One rewards and is
working to continue developing and then shipping
the Wave Two rewards once they are completed.
Swabby wrote: Have you guys seen that HG is now suing Piranha games, Hairbrained Schemes, and Catalyst Game Labs for copyright infringement ? Same old unseen lawsuit but amped up.
The implications are rather interesting considering the crossover business between RRT and Battletech.
I hadn't seen or hear of this. Wonder if They will countersue for frivolous lawsuits. This is obviously a ploy to cost competitors funds.
We really just need one of the Japanese companies that owns some of the Macross IP to spend the time/money to challenge HG's assertion that their IP on Robotech covers all "Macross" IP in the United States.
Then we could actually get the new Macross series released here in America and companies could license out mech designs and such without HG being a road block.
Obviously I don't concede the notion that it's impossible to work out an equitable pro-rated sum for outstanding Battle Cry tiers, but even if we leave that aside for a moment, even just refunding amounts paid on wave 2 add ons (extra Gnerls and Super VTs and VEF/1D packs and MAC-II's) would be a semi-reasonable compromise.
Further obviously they have no interest in doing that, which kind of gives up how little faith they have always had (and continue to have) in the project. If they were actually confident that it would not only deliver but sell well at retail and online, then it shouldn't be that big a problem to give that person their money back on those items and just use the extra stock for distribution/web sales. Hell, if for some reason it'd be cumbersome to change up the box counts, use it as tournament/league swag (oh right they're struggling to do even a low key event at one of the biggest gaming conventions in the world). And/or a tacit admission that there are more people displeased with things then they admit aloud in the semi-regular 'everything is totally fine!' style language that can show up in the weekly propaganda.
And the eternal question, the one neither he nor anyone at Palladium will answer, is 'what is the failure point'? Okay, so they're going to deliver this year, except they aren't and we know it and it's just a matter of time before they admit it. They barely completed North American delivery in 2014 when they were already punching out test sprues in April (not to mention prototypes much earlier in the year).
So if they're not even at the Pre-Production Prototype phase, let alone test sprues, and it's nearing August, 2017 is a writeoff. Full stop. Anyone who tells them that molds can be milled, test pieces made, verified, a production run completed, and shipped across the ocean, with one of the busiest shipping periods of the year happening during that vague time frame leading up to Christmas, they're either crazy or lying, or relying on some absurdly expensive manner of doing things like air-freighting everything.
I mean, I've been kinda easy on Scott, but as the weeks tick by, if he's going to fall back on the 15 years of experience his profile page on the PB site says he has, then 'adding up 2 + 2 and getting 4" shouldn't be a far stretch. There's 4 months and change left in the year, even if they go to production soon to at least beat Chinese New Year, shipping is highly unlikely to even start until the new year, especially with Gencon coming up (a good 2 week commitment in prep time and recovery from con crud) plus the cold/flu/grab bag/holiday season (another month or more down the drain) coming up.
To circle back around to the point I was making a moment ago, though, is "what if 2017 isn't in the cards? And 2018? And 2019?" Like a spokesman who is bad at their job, either they're honest with us and deliver the bad news when it needs saying and get canned for it, or they're just another worthless mouthpiece due to be replaced sometime soon when the boss isn't happy with the quantity and quality of their praise and defense.
What is the end game, the loss condition where the board wins? Because if there isn't one, and we get into our 4th calendar year without any substantial progress to show for it, they might as well just send an update saying 'we're running out the clock, death and distance cover most of you haters" and end it with a pic of Kevin flipping people the bird.
btw, would someone with Scott's email address mind PM'ing it to me? I'm sure it's easy enough to figure out, but I can't say I've been in touch with them by email enough times to just take a stab at it when clearly some of y'all have been talking to him.
Yeesh, that got a little rambly. Guess it has been a while.
Stormonu wrote: Oh well, reading the info about the quotes was enlightening, but like others their past timeline just makes no sense. And though we generally despised the first manufacturer, you have to wonder what happened to them.
Normally it means that themanufacturer adopted some unreasonable condition, like asking to be paid.
There seems to be discussion also on the MWO forums...
Kind of sad that business like Harmony Gold and Palladium seem only to survive on the money the make from suing people..
How to account for that in a marketing meeting??..
HG are apparently claiming that the Shadow Hawk is a derivative of the Spartan, the Locust is a derivative of the Officer Pod, and the Atlas is a derivative of the Armored Valk...
What the everloving feth?
Firstly, the Shadow Hawk and the Locust are both taken from manga (Dougram 1981, and Crusher Joe 1983 respectively) and the former PREDATES Macross (1982), let alone Robotech, and the latter may have had artwork in the books that started in 1977, I can't confirm the introduction of those two mecha into their respective shows, but a quick search on Youtube has the Dougram show up in the pilot. So they can feth right off on those claims, as they've never challenged that.
Secondly, arguing the Atlas is an AValk is ludicrous. The AValk is the Battletech Crusader and looks NOTHING like the Atlas. The only way they can make that claim is to claim all humanoid mecha are derivative. In which case there's several companies that should be filing suit against Harmony Gold.
I'm literally unable to clearly organize my thoughts. I just can't even... fething seriously? Guh.
I am willing to put money down that this case is really about a perception that RRT sales to battletech players are not as good as they anticipated due and a glut of russian MWO miniature reproducers.
If Harmony Gold cared about people damaging the IP they have Kevin's on speed dial, RRT has done more to distance people from Robotech than anything Battletech has ever done.
So Harmony Gold uses the money they just got from the two new game licenses to immediately file lawsuits? Maybe they should file against Palladium for wrecking the earning potential on their Robotech license.
Autarch wrote: So Harmony Gold uses the money they just got from the two new game licenses to immediately file lawsuits? Maybe they should file against Palladium for wrecking the earning potential on their Robotech license.
They're smart in at least going for a case in which they could get money from the defendant.
I hope HG has their head handed to them, like GW and Chapterhouse.
I don't see how anyone can defend Chapterhouse. They were blatantly using GW ip. They would show "greens" that used GW models. They used GW names. They openly bragged about it, they taunted people that told them they were asking for trouble and claimed they had a legal fund.
When GW took them to court, they publicly cried for help. They scrubbed their website and begged for legal assistance.
In the end, they were found in violation and it nearly put them out of business. GW's lawyers dropped the ball and didn't collect proof before moving forward with the lawsuit, it cost them their jobs and GW a lot of money.
In the end, while GW is heavy handed and ridiculous in its pursuit of ip defense, in this case they were justified and Chapterhouse got away with a lesser punishment than they should have. They aren't the heroes you are looking for.
Light Zen Infantry render, from four different angles.
Something as yet unseen, so they get props for that.
Can't say I'm blown away by it, and I'm shuddering at parts count given the undercut issues on the legs.
And the phrasing makes it look like it'll be a singular sculpt.
But there's one question I have. Is this something new that's been developed, or is this a 2+ year old Ninja render that PB have been sitting on for no good reason?
n815e wrote: I don't see how anyone can defend Chapterhouse. They were blatantly using GW ip. They would show "greens" that used GW models. They used GW names. They openly bragged about it, they taunted people that told them they were asking for trouble and claimed they had a legal fund.
When GW took them to court, they publicly cried for help. They scrubbed their website and begged for legal assistance.
In the end, they were found in violation and it nearly put them out of business. GW's lawyers dropped the ball and didn't collect proof before moving forward with the lawsuit, it cost them their jobs and GW a lot of money.
In the end, while GW is heavy handed and ridiculous in its pursuit of ip defense, in this case they were justified and Chapterhouse got away with a lesser punishment than they should have. They aren't the heroes you are looking for.
You have an exceedingly poor grasp of what happened in the Chapterhouse case.
Actually someone already pointed out in the RTT comments that in 2015 (update #186) they showed different pictures of the same renders; so nothing new..
But there's one question I have. Is this something new that's been developed, or is this a 2+ year old Ninja render that PB have been sitting on for no good reason?
It looks to be a 2 year old render form a different angle and a bit more up close.
n815e wrote: I don't see how anyone can defend Chapterhouse. They were blatantly using GW ip. They would show "greens" that used GW models. They used GW names. They openly bragged about it, they taunted people that told them they were asking for trouble and claimed they had a legal fund.
When GW took them to court, they publicly cried for help. They scrubbed their website and begged for legal assistance.
In the end, they were found in violation and it nearly put them out of business. GW's lawyers dropped the ball and didn't collect proof before moving forward with the lawsuit, it cost them their jobs and GW a lot of money.
In the end, while GW is heavy handed and ridiculous in its pursuit of ip defense, in this case they were justified and Chapterhouse got away with a lesser punishment than they should have. They aren't the heroes you are looking for.
You have an exceedingly poor grasp of what happened in the Chapterhouse case.
~Eric
Actually, I followed Chapterhouse for a long time before they were sued, during the suit and after.
They are not victims. However, enough people confuse this legitimate case GW had with their bullying of others and turned IP thieves into sympathetic victims by association.
n815e wrote: I don't see how anyone can defend Chapterhouse. They were blatantly using GW ip. They would show "greens" that used GW models. They used GW names. They openly bragged about it, they taunted people that told them they were asking for trouble and claimed they had a legal fund.
When GW took them to court, they publicly cried for help. They scrubbed their website and begged for legal assistance.
In the end, they were found in violation and it nearly put them out of business. GW's lawyers dropped the ball and didn't collect proof before moving forward with the lawsuit, it cost them their jobs and GW a lot of money.
In the end, while GW is heavy handed and ridiculous in its pursuit of ip defense, in this case they were justified and Chapterhouse got away with a lesser punishment than they should have. They aren't the heroes you are looking for.
You have an exceedingly poor grasp of what happened in the Chapterhouse case.
~Eric
Actually, I followed Chapterhouse for a long time before they were sued, during the suit and after.
They are not victims. However, enough people confuse this legitimate case GW had with their bullying of others and turned IP thieves into sympathetic victims by association.
I never said they were victims. Your understanding is still poor. And this tangent is off topic, so PM me if you wish to continue.
We've already seen that model before, Scott had somebody fire up SolidWorks (or whatever) and change the view...
PB underestimates the tubes memory / search function
You have to read RRT update 186 from Aug 2015 and RRT update 203 which have a new render of Light Zed Trooper . Now look at the Aug 2015 render of the Heavy and the Light Zed Troopers you will notice a different renders. The old one have face plates and the new which only light Zed trooper with a face with out the face plate. WOW!!!!! That all they did in 2 years of work. They working 7 day a week on RRTKS Wave 2 sure they are.
As with all wars when it goes on long enough soldiers on the same side start to turn on each other... We all know how chapter-house ended and all can go read about it online with minimum effort.
But for the update, Scott showed us "new" renders of models.. lets not forget we haven't seen anything real from them in three years.. we shouldn't be seeing new pictures of two year old renders.
Those models should have already been produced and on the clearance rack by now..
When and if I ever get my remaining RTT; I will just flip it immediately or give it away.. as will 80% of the other backers, locally the community is long dead. With trying to find players for it is almost like
believing that Palladium games is actually working on something for it.
Also, even if it is something old (which wouldn't surprise me), I'm guessing he's parceling out bits. Why drop everything they have, get mild praise mixed with mockery, and then get told off the next week or update for not having anything.
If they have more, I'm guessing it'll be handed out in tiny morsels for months to come. Whether or not that is indicative of substantial progress, only time will tell, but it's smarter than silence that has served to only reinforce the assumption that they aren't doing anything.
And maybe they aren't. Maybe this is a badly manipulated thing they've been sitting on for years, or from ND back in 2014, or from one of the failed quotes. It could be one of many things.
But 'oh, that's all you have to show?', eh, if Scott is trying to breathe life into a long dead product line, this strikes me as smarter than dropping 20 or 30 images in a single update and then having nothing to show for months or quarters or years to follow.
n815e wrote: I don't see how anyone can defend Chapterhouse. They were blatantly using GW ip. They would show "greens" that used GW models. They used GW names. They openly bragged about it, they taunted people that told them they were asking for trouble and claimed they had a legal fund.
When GW took them to court, they publicly cried for help. They scrubbed their website and begged for legal assistance.
In the end, they were found in violation and it nearly put them out of business. GW's lawyers dropped the ball and didn't collect proof before moving forward with the lawsuit, it cost them their jobs and GW a lot of money.
In the end, while GW is heavy handed and ridiculous in its pursuit of ip defense, in this case they were justified and Chapterhouse got away with a lesser punishment than they should have. They aren't the heroes you are looking for.
You have an exceedingly poor grasp of what happened in the Chapterhouse case.
~Eric
Actually, I followed Chapterhouse for a long time before they were sued, during the suit and after.
They are not victims. However, enough people confuse this legitimate case GW had with their bullying of others and turned IP thieves into sympathetic victims by association.
I never said they were victims. Your understanding is still poor. And this tangent is off topic, so PM me if you wish to continue.
~Eric
His description of chapterhouse is spot on, the guy acted like an arse, then played the victim, just like Kevin S.
Surely the next update from Palladium can't be, still waiting for quotes guys?
And tomorrow we should get an 'update'. Yes yes, we all rush to show how jaded we are, of course I don't expect much of substance, but at this point I do figure words will be typed on the topic all the same.
He's worn the quotes excuse thin already, perhaps he'll discuss why a 1.5 million dollar project that requires experience in logistics and manufacture spent so long in the hands of Kevin's assistant/ illustrator/ goose photographer, depending on the season.
A complicated 300 item spreadsheet! So complicated they finally had to upgrade from Windows 98 just to view!
I'm pretty Sure Wayne was lying, but I think Scott might actually be telling the truth.
I'm kinda guessing his first day went like this.....
Scott: Ok, Where are we with RRT?
Wayne/Kev: We're, getting quotes (smirks all around)
Scott: Ok, which ones have you gotten so far?
Wayne/Kev: We're still getting them (smug grins)
Scott: O....K...... Who have you contacted for quotes?
Wayne/Kev: .....? We are still in the process of scouting names?
Scott: (Whispering to self) For the love of god! (Out loud) Ok let me get a hold of some brokers I know, I'll try to set up a conference call for next Friday
OK, but still, apart from actually devoting more words to the cause, how is what he's doing different?
Hell, we've been told "possibly by the end of the year" (up until today, anyway) and the reason sprue breakdowns aren't available is because...he doesn't want to make it seem like they're farther than they are?
Two weeks ago, a 2017 was a remote possibility. But now, golly, can't show a sprue breakdown. Because they don't want to make it look like they're too far along.
Like that gak Wayne, he's not even consistent with their lies in the same update.
This is my fourth update to you. While it is relatively short, I hope you will like the information it contains.
The Hunt for the Right Manufacturer
We’ve gotten several quotes now from manufacturers, some of which are encouraging while others were not.
The manufacturer Palladium had been talking with when I came on board at the end of May has updated their quote to us. It is not what we were hoping for however, as their quoted price went up significantly. We’ve asked the broker who has been our go-between to seek additional details from the manufacturer about why the price jumped so much.
Of the quotes we have gotten from other manufacturers, we are actively reviewing and comparing several of the most promising and there are two that are very promising. In fact, we were happily surprised with one particular quote, as everything we had heard about this broker and manufacturer said they did excellent work but tended to be expensive. We will be meeting with their reps at Gen Con, along with several other companies.
We also had a soft-introduction this week with a domestic injection-molding company (our thanks to the gent who sent them our way). This is a welcomed lead that we will explore further to see if we can make it work as a domestic producer of future gaming materials who could help reduce future production time (at least on certain items) or help in other ways. We need to send them an NDA and then we’ll be meeting with them probably after Gen Con to explore what they have to offer.
With all this having been said, does this mean that the quoting process is finally over? No it doesn’t. As I wrote in my prior Update, getting a final quote is a back and forth process. I feel like we are close, but cannot be sure until we review all quotes and vet the quality of the final product. Things can still deviate (like getting back a revised quote with a drastically higher price or change when some matter is clarified, or a change in production time). And you never know when a new player might step up. I’m working on getting this process completed however, so that we can get production rolling, and share with you the progress of the production and finally get RRT Wave 2 done and in your hands.
Updating Your Shipping Information
Please provide us with your Current Phone Number and Email Address if they have also changed. If you need to update your shipping and contact information, please send all emails to: kickstarter@palladiumbooks.com. Thank you to all those who have sent in updated shipping information.
RRT - Not in 2017
Erik Solie had great advice in a comment on one of my earlier Updates. He said “Don't sugar coat it man. If there's any sort of issue or delay that comes up, be a straight shooter and simply tell us what it is.”
With the dragged out quoting process we’ve been going through, unfortunately, I sincerely doubt that RRT Wave 2 will be finished with manufacturing by the end of this year.
Questions and Answers
Question 1: Has Palladium Books Given Up on RRT?
Answer 1: I can give a definitive answer to this question - No. We have not given up on RRT, and there has not been a day since I joined the Palladium team that I have not been at work on some aspect of it. We all want to get RRT Wave 2 finished and in your hands, and relaunch the game line with new waves of product and subsequent generations of mecha and battles.
As I stated in an earlier post, I do not expect you to trust me. In fact, my exact words were “I hope that I will earn your trust as we start to make real progress toward completing RRT Wave 2.” Perhaps I should have said “visible” instead of “real”. Real progress can happen behind the scenes, but leave me without evidence to show you. Visible progress is different. So until you can see for yourselves that progress is being made (and visible proof is coming) I will reiterate that I do not expect you to trust me.
In the meantime, please keep commenting on this project. I read every single comment on my Updates, no matter what it says, and as many as I can on the comments page. I don’t take it personally. Your comments give me insight and motivation. I want to turn your frustrations and hurt into happiness (or at least less pain). I want to see Wave 2 completed and RRT expanded into more eras of Robotech. That is my goal and the goal of Palladium Books.
Question 2: Can we see the renders of part breakouts for the game pieces?
Answer 2: I do not want to post possible part breakouts at this time, as I fear it would give the illusion that we are farther into the process of manufacturing than we actually are. We are still discussing those details with the manufacturers - once we have the part breakouts set in stone I will share them with you.
Huh.
Question 2: Can we see the renders of part breakouts for the game pieces?
Answer 2: I do not want to post possible part breakouts at this time, as I fear it would give the illusion that we are farther into the process of manufacturing than we actually are. We are still discussing those details with the manufacturers - once we have the part breakouts set in stone I will share them with you.
I always like the Illusionist character class in 1E AD&D.
Really hard to play well, and really hard to get illusions to 'work right' too.
I don't mean to be "that guy", but I have a fairly simple question.
Where the hell are the Force Orgs?
At the start of July he became aware of the Force Orgs.
July 5th he asks backers if they want it.
July 18th he says they'll get refined and uploaded.
August 1st, no mention.
This should have been done BEFORE his July 18th Update. That it's still not done is endemic of the Palladium problems, despite Scott's punctuality on generating Updates.
As Forar said in the Update, this is similar to Wayne's "breakdown of Wave 2" thing. Just get it done.
I am happy that they are talking to us on a regular basis again. Scott is coming across as just a more diplomatic version of Wayne, and way more sane than Kevin.
But that's about it.
It's still the same rehash of "we're waiting on quotes", "Force Org? Squirrel!!!" and so forth. Maybe he'll have some lovely pictures of geese to post before coming down with the crud for Gencon.
Overall, it seems nothing has changed, now we're just getting the BS directly on the KS, and getting it biweekly instead of weekly - in a more wordy fashion. I tried not to get my hopes up, but I do feel strangely disappointed - knowing full well it would have been the same old song and dance.
And yeah, I was wondering why the Force Orgs STILL haven't been posted yet. That should have been a no brainer done BEFORE his first post - not even a "do you want it", but "hey, it's here now!"
The quotes increased because they're sick of dealing with PB all the time. When a customer keeps asking for quotes, at some point, you just don't think they're serious and you go 'feth it' and give them crap
Genoside07 wrote: Has anyone tried to see what their state AG has to say about this??
Yes, a bunch, over the years. The general response was usually to kick responsibility to another group ("I can't help you, contact the MIAG") or simply claim to be unable to assist.
I think it's safe to say if they are now having a sopper sekrit meeting at Gencon with a secret cabal of plastic manufacturers, that they're exhausted options in China and shown themselves to be as much clowns behind the scenes as they appear to be in front of the curtain. I'd agree that the openings Palladium has sent has been requests of extension of credit and none of the companies are going for that one. Wouldn't it be funny if the meeting was with Tony Reidy of Defiance Games? We have a reliable company with years of experience in doing things the Palladium WAY!
Someone may want to advise Scoot and Kevayne that if the man with the plan is Tony Reidy that they may want to reconsider that approach. Scoot may just be dumb and unenlightened enough not to have heard of Tony the Bobblehead and his blatant stealing of funds.
I begin to see some of the problem when Palladium has to send NDAs to manufacturers before they even get quotes.
Well, they don't want to put in the work of developing the idea for a product line, putting tons of effort into making sensible designs that could be made fairly quickly and then show it to a company and have that company decline and turn around and make an eerily-similar but slightly more knock-off-ish product based on the demand illustrated for the initial effort. Certainly they don't want someone to run a crowdfunding campaign for said idea and raise...let's say $1.44M on over-promising things and then putter about for the next half a decade when the original idea likely would have been much faster and better quality.
I mean, sure, it's unlikely that such a thing would happen to this franchise *cough*again*cough*, but PB loves you guys too much to take such risks.
Good stuff guys, life has been a bit distracting as of late.
Yep, big freaking pile of RRT stuff in my hobby area.
I am unfortunately working on my RRT models like PB is working on Wave2.
Sad really.
I DO like the models when I get them together but I would almost rather suck on metallic paint than put a Valkyrie squadron together.
Funny that, it sounds like the FFG motto (or is that Harmony Gold?):
Anyway, yes a different flavor of non-update by PB.
Harmony Gold is looking for settlement money, I will have to look up what products they get money from and boycott them on principle.
Going after any element of Battletech or HBS for that matter is rather maddening.
HG as pointed out often is the biggest barrier to stomping robot media for us, not a "fine" producer of it.
At this point I don't think Palladium Books realizes how badly they have killed interest in the game over their handling of the Kickstarter. This continued 'Yeah we're working on quotes' has runs its course.
Palladium will not admit they are in the wrong. Ever.
Palladium will not admit they didn't listen to Ninja Divisions' counsel. After all, Kevin knows whats best.
If anyone has ever followed Palladium over the years, we should know they treat a release schedule as a release suggestion.
Am I bitter? Yes. I called it when the Kickstarter came out that this was being hyped on geek-nostalgia. But I wanted to get give PB the benefit of the doubt and see what they could produce. This is why I didn't back the RIFTS Boardgame, and likely why I will never back anything Palladium attempts in the future.
Perhaps they are talking with Model LLC which does the plastics for Heavy Gear, they are located in Indiana. The detail on those kits is a bit meh and there were a number of issues with the parts either pitting or being partially formed. I think it'd probably be a step down from what the RRT models are currently at.
Why hasn't PB stated the reason they need to change production companies? While the models are a bit of a PITA to build they at least they would be consistent, I have a feeling that if they switch up companies "for reasons" the models are only bound to be worse. PB doesn't seem to have any sort of grasp on the ball when it comes to miniatures which is why I think their seeking out a factory is only going to cause problems, their only expertise was from Ninja DIvision which has long fled the coop. Based on 4 years of non-action and complete blackout of information cloaked in "we're working on it" I have zero faith in PB's ability to get any of this sorted out.
I backed because of ND's involvement only to realize we'd all been completely bamboozled, that broke my faith in kickstarter. While PB has generated a lot of ire their money is safe in the bank, but I feel burnt by this whole event and that's caused me to skip using KS as a platform since. Sadly the blow back falls on smaller better companies that could really use the help, but after the RRT mess I just don't feel I can trust using KS ever again. The real legacy of RRT is that they're so toxic that they've poisoned the well for others that have nothing to do with RRT.
stanman wrote: Perhaps they are talking with Model LLC which does the plastics for Heavy Gear, they are located in Indiana. The detail on those kits is a bit meh and there were a number of issues with the parts either pitting or being partially formed. I think it'd probably be a step down from what the RRT models are currently at.
Why hasn't PB stated the reason they need to change production companies? While the models are a bit of a PITA to build they at least they would be consistent, I have a feeling that if they switch up companies "for reasons" the models are only bound to be worse. PB doesn't seem to have any sort of grasp on the ball when it comes to miniatures which is why I think their seeking out a factory is only going to cause problems, their only expertise was from Ninja DIvision which has long fled the coop. Based on 4 years of non-action and complete blackout of information cloaked in "we're working on it" I have zero faith in PB's ability to get any of this sorted out.
I backed because of ND's involvement only to realize we'd all been completely bamboozled, that broke my faith in kickstarter. While PB has generated a lot of ire their money is safe in the bank, but I feel burnt by this whole event and that's caused me to skip using KS as a platform since. Sadly the blow back falls on smaller better companies that could really use the help, but after the RRT mess I just don't feel I can trust using KS ever again. The real legacy of RRT is that they're so toxic that they've poisoned the well for others that have nothing to do with RRT.
A backer posted the following in the latest Update, and I thought I'd repost here, so people could have a reference for when PBWK's start the whole "You should have done your research about Palladium! They're always late!" screed.
To Quote Kevin (http://www.mtv.com/news/2628811/kevin-siembieda-robotech/)
"Palladium Books is the license holder, publisher, and design partner. We provide creative input, suggestions, and make all the final approvals. Palladium's team is also contributing to the writing and editing of the rule book, but it is Ninja Division in the trenches making it all come to life: sculpts, art, packaging, rules development, playtesting, etc.
From the start I gave Ninja Division the lead in the creative design and development of Robotech RPG Tactics. Ninja Division's people are doing all the sculpts, artwork, and most of the development for this product. They have also designed and managed the Kickstarter. Ninja Division will also be managing the manufacturing for us."
That's why I personally backed. I'd heard all the rumors about PB. I'd done my research. And I was blatantly lied to and when the bait and switch happened the day after funding, and got steadily worse, when SpartanGate happened, I immediately sought the ejection button. Feth the white knights.
Joyboozer wrote: Palladium own the molds. Unless they are incredibly stupid.
Umm.... have you met Palladium?
To the question at hand, actually I'd expect PB to "own" the molds. But there are still several issues that could be a factor in them being re-used.
I've been told that there's some moves towards uniformity that wasn't around when I was in the diecast industry. But that doesn't necessarily mean universal mold components. So they'd have to find a manufacturer that could use the same molds. And given they don't seem to have their pick of manufacturers, that could be an issue, depending on how state of the art the original company was, and how state of the art the new one is.
Forar mentions storage. They're steel, so improper care can lead to issues of corruption (ie rust). That they've been likely sitting somewhere for 3 years unused, could be an issue. Especially if PB haven't paid (or been lax on paying) storage fees.
And one factor that might not be an issue, but could well be, is corruption of a more human nature. It's not common, but in some developing countries, getting the original company to ship to a competitor might require excessive "fees". They have to find the molds, then they have to pack the molds, then they have to ship the molds. All of these things are going to be claimed as "VERY" expensive, and if they're not paid for, could result in the "loss" of the product. Again, I'm not saying this is a common occurrence, especially among more professional companies, but it would be the kind of shady dealer PB would be most tempted to hire. As this would be the last opportunity for them to get money out of PB (if PB are moving the molds, there's been a breakdown in the relationship), so gouging the everloving crap out of PB wouldn't be unexpected.
Now, if PB were smart, they'd have on hand the final digital files that were used to create the sprues, so that the new manufacturer could easily produce new molds (expensive, but better than building them from scratch), but we get back to Joyboozer's original statement. And when it comes to that statement, I've come to the conclusion that you can NEVER underestimate PB's stupidity. Or laziness. Or cheapness. Or punctuality. Or honesty. Or responsibility. Or accountability. Or self-assessment. Because they'll inevitably fall short.
In reality, wave 1 was so overproduced that a second run isn't likely to be needed.
At this point, PB would have to produce wave 2 and do a complete 180 in terms of promotion and support to generate any interest again from non-backers to increase sales.
Chances are, the game will sit collecting dust and be a part of Christmas Surprise Packages until they close their doors. Which is probably fine with PB, it's part of their "business plan" to have a warehouse filled with products to sell at a snail's pace for a decade or more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think a lot of us regained some hope when Scott came on board (I almost started painting models again), but it's basically been two months of the same stuff, worded differently. Even if Scott is being more honest and making an effort to get things moving, PB has a natural tendency for sedentary behavior and, with no sense that they even have project milestones set to a schedule (much less faith they would even stick to them), it's just more chugging along.
Yes, they may actually be shopping around for a good price this time. But nothing to say when they plan to stop talking and start doing.
I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking of selling off my stuff. I have to make space in my house and this is taking up storage that could be better used.
The dies for molds are not necessarily plug and play. There are many types of injection molding machines that use a different mechanism (hydraulic, electrical, etc) to squeeze. It isn't like there are a million machines all over the world. There are categories of machines and different parts of the world are more inclined to have machines with a specific purpose. For example, high detail and a lot of undercuts for use in aerospace is what is typically in the USA.
If you want to create 100,000 xbox controller shells you'd goto China and not the USA.
Like others said here, you have to store the dies carefully. And they are custom and heavy. It'd be odd to ship them to China for a run then back to PB then back to China for another run...
PB "owning" the dies are one thing. PB physically having them is another (Kevin BS won't get his dies out of a factory in China unless that BS is wrapped in a thick roll of franklins) and PB being able to do something with the dies (if they even have them) is another story.
Morgan Vening wrote: NEVER underestimate PB's stupidity. Or laziness. Or cheapness. Or punctuality. Or honesty. Or responsibility. Or accountability. Or self-assessment. Because they'll inevitably fall short.
Thanks for this... I needed a good laugh..
But as with most kick starters they are used as testing the interest of the product and help COVER cost.. My personal feelings is Palladium cut Ninja Division loose because they need their part of the money
to help pay for more of the work. Sad thing is when this was originally announced many people that I know was hopeful and seeing it as an alternate to Epic. I agree there is no helping it now.. no matter what they promise
they are working on..
Funny thing is a guy lost it on the Palladium Facebook page about how they announce books with no end in sight.. And how they have 4-5 books still showing they are shipping in Summer 2017 with about a month left before fall, with only one book going to press in the past few months..
Just like Robotech Tactics; they admitted to sending out a Non disclosure agreement to a supplier recently.. That is the first thing you do as a company before anything else...So they are not even at step one.. three years later... It will never happen.
But Kickstarter already has their money and Kevin can keep saying "we are working on it" but I am sure they are happy knowing we kept the doors open with the kickstarter money of a company that would clearly be closed
up by now if not gotten it.
There are 2 large categories of molds: soft and hard (that's what she said)
Soft tools wear out quick, are for low numbers of parts, and are cheap. Hard rubber mold would be an example.
Hard tooling example would be a steel die. More expensive, for large number of parts, and come in many different rockwell hardness, which in turn is more expensive. So, if you want to make 100,000 xbox controller shells from one hard tools that is one price for the tool. If you want 500,000 shells from one tool, that is a much higher price.
So, where this matters to PB. When you sit down with the mold designer, you take their input and listen to their expert advice and align that with your business plan.
For example (and I'm making this up, but the rough numbers were what I used on my iPhone case), if you want 20k parts, you'll have a 5% probability to get that from 2 soft tools. 95% from 5. And the tooling costs $3k / soft. If the tool breaks during a run and no backup is ready, the line will re-tool and your final 2k parts will be delivered 2 months later.
That is more or less the nickle tour of doing this.
And those soft tools are usually consumed during the process.
TL;DR
PB might have made soft tools for wave 1 and they can't make anymore (without new dies), which could be a reason why they order so much of wave 1
The takeaway I remember having of that Update was that it was a trip Wayne and John Cadice made to see production, and that I found it funny at the time that they went over to see the product well after it was past the point that it could have possibly mattered. The trip was in early September, yet everything was already well underway by the time they arrived. Nice to have a boondoggle trip on the Kickstarter dime.
I seriously doubt the NDA is to protect PB's exclusive license to a 30 year old IP (of which most of the initial production run is rotting in their warehouse), or the off-the-shelf technology used to generate the models.
I suspect they are simply trying to conceal their poor reputation as a company continually fishing for quotes that they have no intention of accepting in order perpetuate fraud against the backers.
Whenever I go to their FB page and see someone complaining of books being late I'm fighting the urge to copy/paste everything the DotF said to you guys whenever you all complained about Wave 2 being late.
"I got up early, walked my mile or so and thought I would get an early start at work. I was almost at the office when our alarm company called to notify me that the motion detector had gone off a few times, should they call the police? When I arrived, the alarm was, indeed, blaring. No doors looked disturbed, but I thought it best to call the police. Everything was fine. No forced entry. No robbery. Whew. The Westland police were very nice about the entire matter and they loved the office and the artwork on the walls.
We suspect the culprit was a spider – a sizeable Daddy Long Legs walking over the motion detector. Wild, right? I’m having the alarm company check out the sensors just to be sure. "
Spiders are the new turkey (from the weekly update)
Autarch wrote: I suspect they are simply trying to conceal their poor reputation as a company continually fishing for quotes that they have no intention of accepting in order perpetuate fraud against the backers.
But bad for them is normally what goes with a NDA is a credit check...Don't worry... I am sure they can get approved for a "cash only with money up front"...
Swabby wrote: "I got up early, walked my mile or so and thought I would get an early start at work. I was almost at the office when our alarm company called to notify me that the motion detector had gone off a few times, should they call the police? When I arrived, the alarm was, indeed, blaring. No doors looked disturbed, but I thought it best to call the police. Everything was fine. No forced entry. No robbery. Whew. The Westland police were very nice about the entire matter and they loved the office and the artwork on the walls.
We suspect the culprit was a spider – a sizeable Daddy Long Legs walking over the motion detector. Wild, right? I’m having the alarm company check out the sensors just to be sure. "
Spiders are the new turkey (from the weekly update)
Here I thought the culprit was going to be angry Robotech RPG backers looking for Wave 2 stuff.
You got to understand this is Kevin we are talking about... I am sure he hears voices.. He was just thinking the police was complementing him about the artwork on the walls.
The same voices that told him it was okay to sale before shipping to any backers and always telling him how great an author/publisher/artist/humanitarian/basketball player/Gardner he is...
Maybe he needs to get some medication before the voices start to tell him to burn things and we find him walking around nude in public...
.
Kevin says...
to kill it), and the Robotech 
.
sure they are.
