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Game 9 of DE and I've had several epic fails on the dark lances/blasters *not* breaking an enemy rhino, not two rhinos, but *one*; I will have all Lance shots pound it, only to yield Stuns up the ying-yang, the often, but mostly useless, Immobilize, and the occasional Wep Destroyed.

Wrecked? My dice seem to have forgotten the definition.

My Tactics question/topic is:
Should I/we, the DE player, make sure to pop the contents the Turn before getting wyches out to assault? Or should I trust to have more average dicing in the future and have the girls disembark for Turn 1 assault?

Too often, I surround a rhino with wyches ready to eat its yummy contents, anticipating the transport to die, yielding the passengers. Even in assaulting the tank with Haywires, the wyches are left in the open for SM to hop out and gun down.

Secondary Question: Should I equip the Hekas with blasters as the last resort to pop the rhino?

My list:
x3 Haems - liquififers each
x2 Venoms with Xtra SplintCan & 3 Trueblasters
x4 Seven wyches (haywires) + Heka w/ Agon in Raider FF
2 Ravagers FF

1500

Just saying, you should consider 3 Ravengers with 3xDLs, they pump out enough firepower to down a lot of vehicles. And while Immobilized may not in your eyes be perfect, I'd rather have 3 immobilized rhinos than 3 rhinos actually able to move... Hampering their maneuverability while capitalizing on yours will help greatly.

Footsloggin wrote:Just saying, you should consider 3 Ravengers with 3xDLs, they pump out enough firepower to down a lot of vehicles

Yep, though I'm working on making the purchases, so in the meantime Venoms (proxied land speeders) with Trublasters figure in.

My question is, should I disembark anticipating a cracked egg or be more conservative and wait until there are infantry on the ground, given my run of luck?

Stunning is the name of the game for us. Glaces are fine, don't over pump into a single squad.

Getting to whether or not to hop out... I take it your wyches have FNP? Well, what I would suggest is to get them close enough to where you can surround the transport with them, therefore if it does not die, you can surround it with haywires and kill the contents. This may seem difficult, however you will find that with fleet you shouldn't be having ti much trouble as long as your dice dont epic fail.

Get another ravager though.

revackey wrote:Getting to whether or not to hop out... I take it your wyches have FNP?

Yup, 3 haems for 4 wyche squads. Although, that will change with a 3rd ravager. It'll just be 3 wyche units.

revackey wrote: Well, what I would suggest is to get them close enough to where you can surround the transport with them, therefore if it does not die, you can surround it with haywires and kill the contents. This may seem difficult, however you will find that with fleet you shouldn't be having ti much trouble as long as your dice dont epic fail.

Lately, this has been the case: Initiative stolen first two league games. Crucial run and assault into terrain rolls failing, in addition to overall lance failure.

And if I can surround a rhino, the SM player can still put 2 to 3 SM on top of the wreck (emergency disembark), but even with FNP, and a possible cover save for being wrapped aroud the rhino, it is a tactic that I don't seem to be doing well with.

Perhaps new dice may do you some well, your list really won't be bad, trueborn are great anti tank, then with 3 dark lances from raiders, and 9 from ravagers you shouldn't be having a big problem.

It's odd.

HQ-Haemy x3 Liquifiers x2 Shatershard x1 (On the one without a liquifier)

Troops

x3 of x9 Whyches, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywire nades
-Raider, FF

Elites

x2 of x4 Trueborn x4 Blaster
-Venom, extra splinter cannon

Heavy Support

x3 Ravager, FF

Total ::1500


This is what I run at 1500, seems to work. (Troop choices are a tad low, but its necessary) But for me, I'm not getting out unless there's 95% chance the wyches will be in assault cc during my assault phase. Too often have they been an inch short, or rolled an immobilize instead of a wrecked, and then get double tapped down.

Also, when you opponent yells "Bitch get out da car" don't do it, it's a trap

That is exactly what I run as well, however my wych sqauds have a wych weapon.

Threedin wrote:Haemy x3 Liquifiers x2 Shatershard x1 (On the one without a liquifier)
x3 of x9 Whyches, Hekatrix, Agonizer, Haywire nades -Raider, FF
x2 of x4 Trueborn x4 Blaster -Venom, extra splinter cannon
x3 Ravager, FF
Total ::1500

As I am re-adjusting the list away from 4 wyche units to 3 (adding girls to those) this is the direction I was heading. And, as it says in my sig, I found the ShatterS great fun, but couldn't fit it in this list. I'm tweaking for the next league night.

Threedin wrote:Also, when you opponent yells "Bitch get out da car" don't do it, it's a trap

Yeah, there're several more punchlines to go with that, but I have a respectable job and should mind my Ps&Qs on the Internet.

Seriously, though: Blasters for the Hekas? The points would have to be two Trublasters out, for 3 more blaster weapons for the 3 hekas, with 3 still in each venom. Good?

Thought of Scourges with Heat Lances? Deep strike them, Lance + Melta = dead anything.

If you are running heatlances in scourges, think about having them come out of a WW portal as well. They can assault smal units like guards after they have shot open the transport.

Talos = dead rhinos

thats the only real canopener DE have. The rest just stun things.
Stun everything they have and either force them to dismount or continue on and stun them next turn. keep it up and you win.

You need 3 pens to blow up a rhino on average. Spam more lance!

Lunchmonkey wrote:Thought of Scourges with Heat Lances? Deep strike them, Lance + Melta = dead anything.

Scourges would radicaly change the list. I do have Swooping Hawk models for them, to be used at 1850, with the Baron; but to insert them into *this* 1500 list, would be less efficient for points-to-lances than what I've got set up.
Good suggestion though.

Exergy wrote:Talos = dead rhinos - thats the only real canopener DE have. The rest just stun things.
Stun everything they have and either force them to dismount or continue on and stun them next turn. keep it up and you win.

I agree the MC is the way to crack a vehicle, but survivability is the issue. Taloses over ravagers goes against pretty much everyone's lists and the advice given for those lists. There's enough anti-T weapons, and a lot of them short ranged (meltaguns) out there to make short work of the Talos, even at T7, with its MEq armor save, no Invuln and 3 wounds. FNP will not help against all of that AP2 plasma and LasCan that can wound it.

So, Blasters for Hekas? Sorry for being a broken record, but I'm looking for tactical applications, not radical list alterations. If it were that, I'd have posted in the Army List section.

as dark eldar, destroying vehicles is gravy. all you 'really' need to do is stop it from moving if its a transport, or shooting if its a tank or other vehicle. anything else is just extra. once a transport is immobilized, i move on to the next, since that thing aint moving next turn, and the guys inside now either stay put (and do little to nothing), or they get out early, and open themselves to all manner of splinter shots. if you get a stunned/shaken result same thing. wrecked is not all its cracked up to be.... stun locking vehicles or otherwise disabling them works just as well.

i would suggest keeping your wychs back as a response unit, only moving in for the kill once something DOES actually get out. either that or go dread hunting. personally my infanty almost never get out of their vehicles, unless they get shot out, or really really really have to force something off an objective or otherwise eliminate a specific unit.

DarthSpader wrote:as dark eldar, destroying vehicles is gravy. all you 'really' need to do is stop it from moving if its a transport, or shooting if its a tank or other vehicle. anything else is just extra. once a transport is immobilized, i move on to the next, since that thing aint moving next turn, and the guys inside now either stay put (and do little to nothing), or they get out early, and open themselves to all manner of splinter shots. if you get a stunned/shaken result same thing. wrecked is not all its cracked up to be.... stun locking vehicles or otherwise disabling them works just as well.

i would suggest keeping your wychs back as a response unit, only moving in for the kill once something DOES actually get out. either that or go dread hunting. personally my infanty almost never get out of their vehicles, unless they get shot out, or really really really have to force something off an objective or otherwise eliminate a specific unit.

Pretty much this. While destruction of the vehicle is wonderful, not having them return fire is really your only concern. Stun and immobilize a transport...and your opponent might think about jumping out just so he can fire. Only immobile? Ok, so he might leave them in and have the heavy/special weapon fire out...IF you are in range. Just use the Cannons on those Venoms to keep things at range and sick the Wyches on the squads you do pop.

Brothererekose wrote:

revackey wrote:Getting to whether or not to hop out... I take it your wyches have FNP?

Yup, 3 haems for 4 wyche squads. Although, that will change with a 3rd ravager. It'll just be 3 wyche units.

revackey wrote: Well, what I would suggest is to get them close enough to where you can surround the transport with them, therefore if it does not die, you can surround it with haywires and kill the contents. This may seem difficult, however you will find that with fleet you shouldn't be having ti much trouble as long as your dice dont epic fail.

Lately, this has been the case: Initiative stolen first two league games. Crucial run and assault into terrain rolls failing, in addition to overall lance failure.

And if I can surround a rhino, the SM player can still put 2 to 3 SM on top of the wreck (emergency disembark), but even with FNP, and a possible cover save for being wrapped aroud the rhino, it is a tactic that I don't seem to be doing well with.

You can NOT put people on top of the Wreck here is how it works.

1) You roll the wrecked result

2) Models in the Vehicle Disembark

3) The Vehicle becomes Terrain ( a wreck)


While models are disembarking, the vehicle is still a vehicle and is not a wreck yet. You can not put models on top of it as part of an emergency disembark.

@OP - I had something similar happen in my last game, T1 I fired 2 ravagers at a rhino, nothing. T2 I fired 1 ravager and a raider at it, nothing. T3 I fired 2 ravagers and raider at it, weapon destroyed. T4 1 ravager and 2 raiders managed to immobalize it (but potms fixed that). Turn 5 I fired 2 ravagers and a raider, disembarked my haywire wyches shooting did nothing (29 shots by this time), wyches wrecked it and then got shot to bits by the marines that got out!

On the other hand, in the game before that I managed to wreck/explode 2 dred's and a rhino in T1 and exploded a third dread on T2.

Despite being good, they just arent as dependable as melta's. Its not until you run an army with no AP1 that you realise how helpful that +1 on the vehicle damage chart can be

Heat Lances are AP1. The problem is they're only available on lackluster units.

I agree that you need more Lances. It takes three dark lance shots for one glance or pen on average. So you would need 15 to reliably stun 5 vehicles (wrecking is a bonus)

If your wyches have haywire grenades just drop them in front of the rhino and assault from the front. Vehicles rarely explode from haywire grenades, but are great at causing wrecks. The unit inside will have to dismount from behind and move around to the front to shoot you, if you position them right you should still get cover. Also use your empty raider to provide cover as well.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Heat Lances are AP1. The problem is they're only available on lackluster units.

and heat lances are str 6. You have to be firing at AV 14 to be as good as a meltagun. (range is nice though) you also have to take it as an upgrade on rather expensive models that have anti infantry weapons. 10 points to replace a lasgun with a melta gun or 12 points to replace a shard carbine with a heat lance? I think the melta is a better buy, more so when there are squads that can load up on 4 of them.

Brothererekose wrote:Game 9 of DE and I've had several epic fails on the dark lances/blasters *not* breaking an enemy rhino, not two rhinos, but *one*; I will have all Lance shots pound it, only to yield Stuns up the ying-yang, the often, but mostly useless, Immobilize, and the occasional Wep Destroyed.

I think the first issue is that you're not looking at what you are accomplishing.
Immobilized on a Dedicated transport is 'as good as dead' for the transport, because you just made it stop doing what it is really there for - which is adding mobility.
Weapon Destroyed on a shooty vehicle is an awesome result.

The "problem" is that you have too much of your army built to assault and not enough built to shoot. Before the Wyches disembark you have probably only had the 2 Ravagers shoot at 2 targets. You now have 4 squads of Wyches wanting 2 Ravagers to have generated enough targets for them to assault - problem! This is mitigated if the enemy isn't bringing an all mech army, as then you should be able to find some juicy targets.

Basically you have two options.
1. Add more alpha strike lance fire to your army and/or trim back your assault options.
2. Learn to trust that the Trueblasters (I love that, I might steal that) can help pop something.

I personally think you need +1 Ravager and -1 Wych squad which will make your mix a little more optimal on assault versus units to setup assaults.

I'd suggest staying away from heat lances and Scourges.

I might have posted something here, but seeing Thor665 deigning to grace us with his presence....I'll humby just tell you to listen to him.

*edit* Actually, I will add one note. There's a link in my signature worth reading regarding winning with DE. Are you mentally preparing yourself to mutilate your opponents before you go into a game? Listening to angry music? Getting enraged? You've got to get off on the right foot.

Ah, the exalted ones have deigned to grace my humble thread with their advice.

Seriously, Thor665 and DoP, I do read and agree with the advice you guys give in threads, especially regarding DE. Thanks for chiming in.

Thor665 wrote: Before the Wyches disembark you have probably only had the 2 Ravagers shoot at 2 targets.

Nope. Everything went into a forward rhino that was on the center objective; 2 Ravagers, 2 sets of 3 TrueBlasters (I also coined the phrase "Kroot-Loops" for tau sometime ago ) and the one Dark Lance that was left. He'd downed 3 Raiders in Turn 1's shooting with Long Fangs spam. I'd had the first Turn, but he seized the Initiative. Anyway, the results were Stun, Stun, Shaken, Stun, Immobilize.

Thor665 wrote:Basically you have two options.
1. Add more alpha strike lance fire to your army and/or trim back your assault options.
2. Learn to trust that the Trueblasters (I love that, I might steal that) can help pop something.

I personally think you need +1 Ravager and -1 Wych squad which will make your mix a little more optimal on assault versus units to setup assaults.

Yup. That's where the list is going to be, tonight, 3 Ravagers, 2 Venom-TrueBlasters and 3 wyche+haem Raiders.

Thor665 wrote:I'd suggest staying away from heat lances and Scourges.

*If* I decide run the scourges, at 1850, it'll be with no upgrades as anti-I only and the Baron (directly from DoP's advice column). No lances. But odds are better that it'll the 4th wyche+haem Raider.

Dashofpepper wrote:I might have posted something here, but seeing Thor665 deigning to grace us with his presence....I'll humby just tell you to listen to him.

Yes, making his recommended changes, as I was already leaning that direction.

Dashofpepper wrote:*edit* Actually, I will add one note. There's a link in my signature worth reading regarding winning with DE. Are you mentally preparing yourself to mutilate your opponents before you go into a game? Listening to angry music? Getting enraged? You've got to get off on the right foot.

I'd read it, but need to heed the advice better. I'll get some She Wants Revenge, Metallica, and AC/DC's Dirty Deeds on my ipod. I know I have Iron Maiden's Number of the Beast somewhere. Perhaps some angry Roger Daltrey screaming at God?

So, is there a consensus (besides the list change) that I should *wait* a Turn for the transports' contents to disembark before assault instead of hoping that I crack it on the turn the wyches are panting just outside a rhino, ready to carve up some power armor?

Brothererekose wrote: Lately, this has been the case: Initiative stolen first two league games. Crucial run and assault into terrain rolls failing, in addition to overall lance failure.
And if I can surround a rhino, the SM player can still put 2 to 3 SM on top of the wreck (emergency disembark), but even with FNP, and a possible cover save for being wrapped aroud the rhino, it is a tactic that I don't seem to be doing well with.

Well, at least that stealing of the initiative wasn't super back breaking given how conservatively I deployed
Still, a good game!

I think the addition of a third ravager would give you the punch you are looking for though. As people have said, you are packing more assault than long range shooting at this point so if you hope to get a 1st/2nd turn assault then you have only had a few shots with which to punch things. and If you get your initiative stolen again then you will have that much more to shoot with

Dok wrote:Well, at least that stealing of the initiative wasn't super back breaking given how conservatively I deployed
Still, a good game!

Ah. The one game I keep referring to was against Overwatch on Sunday, although the game against you is in there with all of the failed run/Diff-Terrain rolls.

He seized too? How unlucky can you get???
Well keep your head up, man. That's not gonna happen every game.

Waaaiiitt....

He had a bunch of Longfangs on the board and you spent all your energy, firepower and focus on a rhino? Which in turn shot up your vehicles?

While I agree with Thor that you may be short the tools you need to get the job done, target prioritization is the second most important asset for a DE player. It decides your games.

Agreed. Longfangs are way scarier to me than a transport. Heck, I want the transport to get close and drop its cargo for me to eat!

Dashofpepper wrote:He had a bunch of Longfangs on the board and you spent all your energy, firepower and focus on a rhino?

Yeah, given that it was an objective based mission with terrain giving a lot of infantry cover, the LFs weren't threatening anything on the ground, much. Keep in mind, he seized the Initiative and downed 3 raiders the first go, shook/Stunned both Venoms, and then had a Rhino of GHs move up and take the one objective. My deployment was pretty much how your sig's link shows.

Still, I consider your raised eyebrow an indicator that I screwed up. *If* he had not seize the initiative, I would have assaulted the two closer LF units with 14 wyches each (he deployed them close enough), plus the haems' liquifier shots.

Once the wyches were on the ground with nothing to transport them, I decided on the one near objective, to be grabbed later in the game, and to take the one the rhino was parked on, as it had a great piece of LoS blocking terrain for a last minute grab/secure.

Dashofpepper wrote:While I agree with Thor that you may be short the tools you need to get the job done, target prioritization is the second most important asset for a DE player. It decides your games.

Once my transports were down, I didn't see having the two ravagers start hitting the LFs as worthwhile as the LFs were no longer a big factor, nor would it be real productive. 6 shots, 4 hit. All wound, 2 Cover Saves. It'd take 3 Turns to get rid of one LF unit. Throw in some 12 shots of Splinter Cannons (not 24 shots as that 2nd Venom never did get a chance to recover before it was Exploded!) and we're looking at 8 hits, 4 wounds, one more dead SW. Okay, so two Turns to get rid of one LF unit, after the Turn 1 beating I took, while two more LF units get to have their fun, during those two Turns.

My two Ravagers survived the game, because I pulled them back to focus on that one rhino, out of the LFs' range and LoS.

The game did end in a Draw. One objective secured by both players, and one contested. That middle one was a couple dice rolls away from taking, but a failed leadership here, hekagonzier failing there. Almost a Win.

Mind you, Dash, I'm not countering your comment/advice; I'm just giving you more info on the circumstances how things went.

I'm listening to advice and I'm going to use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Foo wrote:Agreed. Longfangs are way scarier to me than a transport. Heck, I want the transport to get close and drop its cargo for me to eat!

Which I did, but being on the ground, I was only able to get one wyche squad in to the assault. They ate those SWs, but the second set of SWs walked in.

There are a few other mistakes I made in this game, but the thread was really about the one topic:
Should I absolutely *wait* for the vehicle to be popped first before getting the wyches out? And then assault the next Turn?