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Grey Templar wrote:I think they have hooves, but the "Hoof" is more of a hardened cartalagenous growth instead of a enlargened toe nail.


maybe its like an Elephant's foot. they walk on their toes like hoofed animals doe, but they have a cushion under their toe.


kinda like taking a rubber ball, holding it in your palm, and walking on that.



if their feet are hoof shaped, but are sensitive flesh instead of chiten then that would allow for shoes similer to human shoes and not shoes like Horseshoes.



and how did this thread go from Space Fleet effectivness to a discussion of Tau footware?

Brother Coa did it.

None of the tau I have see have shoes, or even horse shoes. We can assume that they are extra hard, but that doesn't help when you land on an acid planet or when you step on a foot trap. (That war with the IG jungle warriors looks a little different now) I think it's a plot hole, or that the tau hate shoes.

nomotog wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I think they have hooves, but the "Hoof" is more of a hardened cartalagenous growth instead of a enlargened toe nail.


maybe its like an Elephant's foot. they walk on their toes like hoofed animals doe, but they have a cushion under their toe.


kinda like taking a rubber ball, holding it in your palm, and walking on that.



if their feet are hoof shaped, but are sensitive flesh instead of chiten then that would allow for shoes similer to human shoes and not shoes like Horseshoes.



and how did this thread go from Space Fleet effectivness to a discussion of Tau footware?

Brother Coa did it.

None of the tau I have see have shoes, or even horse shoes. We can assume that they are extra hard, but that doesn't help when you land on an acid planet or when you step on a foot trap. (That war with the IG jungle warriors looks a little different now) I think it's a plot hole, or that the tau hate shoes.

Guilty as charged...
But in all seriousness I was just joking, people here took my joke a little to far....

Grey Templar wrote:I think they have hooves, but the "Hoof" is more of a hardened cartalagenous growth instead of a enlargened toe nail.


maybe its like an Elephant's foot. they walk on their toes like hoofed animals doe, but they have a cushion under their toe.


kinda like taking a rubber ball, holding it in your palm, and walking on that.



if their feet are hoof shaped, but are sensitive flesh instead of chiten then that would allow for shoes similer to human shoes and not shoes like Horseshoes.



and how did this thread go from Space Fleet effectivness to a discussion of Tau footware?

It simply did.

So back on topic, are we all in accord that the BT w/o support would be insufficient to destroy the Tau Empire?

Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.

If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.

If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.

... What?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.

If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.

1) Tau ships are extremely slow in comparison to the larger, better armed Imperial ships.
2) Tau do not, and will never have, access to the webway. Even the Imperium doesn't, aside from the odd Ordo Xenos Inquisitor working with Craftworlders at the time.
3) The Tau, pathetically small and primitive though they are, would still have enough numbers to take down a Space Marine chapter and its assets, even one with six times the resources of other chapters. They would probably be able to withstand every chapter invading, if the Guard and Navy stayed out of it, though they'd be irreparably damaged by such a war.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.

If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.

Wouldn't need too.

BT Chapter would be like 100 Rangers vs The entire continent of Asia.

The second the Tau realized this was a single force they would mobilize everything to destroy them. XV9s would rip Space Marines to shreds while XV88s made mockery of Land Raiders. The mighty Warships of the BT would succumb under the weight of millions of remoras and the Tau fleets.

Fire Warriors would flood the battlefield with billions of pulse rifle shots. To the Black Templars it would look like the end of times. Which would most likely give them a warm fuzzy feeling as they don't mind dying in battle.

There wouldn't even be hand to hand in the fighting, the Tau would have about 5 hammerheads for each BT on the battlefield. Fight would be brutal for the BT who would perish in a pretty metal fashion.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.

If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.

What the feth!!!!!!!
And after that comes BA and they phase-shift to Tau worlds, slaughter everyone and then shift out With their new Gaussbolters...

BeefCakeSoup wrote:BT Chapter would be like 100 Rangers vs The entire continent of Asia.

More like a single grizzly bear versus every one of those ridiculous miniaturized dogs on Earth. It might cut through them like a grizzly bear through ridiculous miniaturized dogs, but eventually it would wear down and get eaten by chihuahua-sized poodles.

For comparison, the Imperial Military proper against the Tau would be more akin to the entire US military against a single, malnourished dog. How many soldiers would it take to put a round in its head? An equivalent percentage of the Imperial Guard would be equally overkill against the Tau.

The second the Tau realized this was a single force they would mobilize everything to destroy them. XV9s would rip Space Marines to shreds while XV88s made mockery of Land Raiders. The mighty Warships of the BT would succumb under the weight of millions of remoras and the Tau fleets.

Fire Warriors would flood the battlefield with billions of pulse rifle shots. To the Black Templars it would look like the end of times. Which would most likely give them a warm fuzzy feeling as they don't mind dying in battle.

There wouldn't even be hand to hand in the fighting, the Tau would have about 5 hammerheads for each BT on the battlefield. Fight would be brutal for the BT who would perish in a pretty metal fashion.

You're vastly overestimating the size of the Tau's military. This is a faction that can only afford to send a few thousand firewarriors to major conflicts, and only managed to stall a few regiments of Guard on one of their heavily fortified septs. While they'd dwarf the pathetic numbers of the Templars, whose total strength would be around two thirds that of the Damocles Gulf crusade (going off the stated "one marine equals twelve Guardsmen" ratio), they wouldn't have anywhere near the numbers you suggest.

I found the Tau footware discussion rather odd, and to show how little information we actually have here.

According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.

Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.

And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.

BaronIveagh wrote:

According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.

Sorry, but GW themselves are consistent, in their Tau maps and a sept never equals a sector.
A sept is at best like a single system with more than 1 inhabitable world.

But again, how about a source?
Because the map in Tau codices, the rulebook and any other place does not show a sept as a group of worlds or as a organizational unit of
X ? worlds.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.

Your imagination isn't identically with GW's background.
So either provide a source, or drop this nonsense of billions of firewarriors.

I'll point to shadowsuns own entry, and the given number there for 3rd sphere.....
And since 3rd sphere happened in 998M41....

...go figure.

BaronIveagh wrote:
And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.

Disagreed with, by the fanboi group.
Disproven? Not so much.

BaronIveagh wrote:I found the Tau footware discussion rather odd, and to show how little information we actually have here.

According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.

Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.

And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.

But that doesn't make any sense Baron.

If the Tau could field an army of 10 billion Fire Warriors it would mean they would have to have at least 15 densely populated worlds. Which according to the experts is impossible, the Tau with their 1800s medical technology have only 8 million citizens per planet and roughly only 6 planets!

It also means they would have the capability of waging continental campaigns during planetary invasions, while also defending other parts of their borders with substantial, yet logical numbers.

Due to the fact that the Tau only use several thousand units per campaign, you are suggesting they can muster a force with billions, if a few thousand could perform on the level that they have thus far, a few million could conquer a vast area surrounding the Tau Empire, with a few billion contesting the segmentum at some point.

This cannot be allowed as fact! It contradicts 40K as a whole! What you are suggesting is that the Tau are an Empire looking to expand, which the codex and multiple sources all contradict!


----

That's pretty much the running debate Tau players have to deal with.

1hadhq wrote:

I'll point to shadowsuns own entry, and the given number there for 3rd sphere.....

Spoiler:

a million

Which entry is this, exactly? I can't seem to find it.

1hadhq wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.

Sorry, but GW themselves are consistent, in their Tau maps and a sept never equals a sector.
A sept is at best like a single system with more than 1 inhabitable world.

But again, how about a source?
Because the map in Tau codices, the rulebook and any other place does not show a sept as a group of worlds or as a organizational unit of
X ? worlds.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.

Your imagination isn't identically with GW's background.
So either provide a source, or drop this nonsense of billions of firewarriors.

I'll point to shadowsuns own entry, and the given number there for 3rd sphere.....

Spoiler:

a million

And since 3rd sphere happened in 998M41....

...go figure.

BaronIveagh wrote:
And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.

Disagreed with, by the fanboi group.
Disproven? Not so much.

Well, as to the number of fire warriors, the Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM, but with hundreds upon hundreds times more militarization per capita. The IoM would be somewhere around 0.01% militarization, whereas the Tau are 25% (50% if you count the air caste navy [plus an unknown number of Ethereals who fight at the front]) plus their billions of kroot (since all kroot are combat-capable) and an unknown number of stingwings, nicassar, billions of Gue'vesa etc. 10 billion is a conservative estimate in my opinion.

+ the almost entirely militarized Farsight Enclaves

Still wholly out-matched by the imperium, but 1 million is WAY underselling the total number of Tau.

Nerivant wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

I'll point to shadowsuns own entry, and the given number there for 3rd sphere.....

Spoiler:

a million

Which entry is this, exactly? I can't seem to find it.

Unless I am mistaken he is referring to Aun'Vas entry. In which 1 million Fire Warriors were present in a ceremonial capacity on bended knee at the center of the Tau Empire.

Clearly, this mustering of full Tau might was the deciding factor at the battle of Nimbosa. Because Tau FTL is so inferior, the full might of the Tau military wasn't able to reach the planet in time to stop the reclamation effort sent by the Imperium.

Foolish Tau! Sending their whole army to one place! ha!

"Billions of Gue'vasa"?

Try "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" at best. The planets that the Tau have taken from the Imperium were not densely populated to begin with. Nor were the entire populations going over, like some suggest.

The Farsight Enclaves cannot be counted in the overall Tau military because the Farsight Enclaves refuse to have anything to do with the Tau Empire. They are, effectively, a self-governing provenance within the Tau Empire.

You also cannot count "25%" of the Air Caste as being "militarization", because the entirety of the Air Caste and Ethereal Castes are not militarized. You're looking at around 10% of the Air Caste being militarized, with the other 10% being civilian traffic, and the last 5% being associated with the Water Caste.

Plus your percentages are off anyways, because there's 5 Castes. 20%, maximum, if the entirety of the Castes militarization are somehow 'balanced'.

The "billions of Kroot" is also another fallacy, since only a small amount of Kroot are permanently serving with the Tau Empire. The majority are mercenaries, fighting elsewhere for pay.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I found the Tau footware discussion rather odd, and to show how little information we actually have here.

According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.

Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.

And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.

But that doesn't make any sense Baron.

If the Tau could field an army of 10 billion Fire Warriors it would mean they would have to have at least 15 densely populated worlds. Which according to the experts is impossible, the Tau with their 1800s medical technology have only 8 million citizens per planet and roughly only 6 planets!

It also means they would have the capability of waging continental campaigns during planetary invasions, while also defending other parts of their borders with substantial, yet logical numbers.

Due to the fact that the Tau only use several thousand units per campaign, you are suggesting they can muster a force with billions, if a few thousand could perform on the level that they have thus far, a few million could conquer a vast area surrounding the Tau Empire, with a few billion contesting the segmentum at some point.

This cannot be allowed as fact! It contradicts 40K as a whole! What you are suggesting is that the Tau are an Empire looking to expand, which the codex and multiple sources all contradict!


----

That's pretty much the running debate Tau players have to deal with.

I have absolutely no idea at all where you got "1800s medical tech" from.

Their Sept worlds contain well over a billion Tau each, and are completely self-sustaining.

They have 17 sept worlds according to my codex here, and over 100 planets total.

They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.

P
D
F.

This is where all the FW are at.

Plus there are going to be uncountable numbers of FW patrolling Tau space.

And fighting Nids

And fighting orks.

1hadhq wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.

Sorry, but GW themselves are consistent, in their Tau maps and a sept never equals a sector.
A sept is at best like a single system with more than 1 inhabitable world.

But again, how about a source?
Because the map in Tau codices, the rulebook and any other place does not show a sept as a group of worlds or as a organizational unit of
X ? worlds.

You really need to work on reading comprehension.

'According to the map in 40k 5E'. Pick up the 5th Edition 40k rulebook and page back to the fluff part of the book, in the section on the Tau, and look at the map. This is also more or less what the Deathwatch corebook also says.

1hadhq wrote:
So either provide a source, or drop this nonsense of billions of firewarriors.

I'll point to shadowsuns own entry, and the given number there for 3rd sphere.....

Spoiler:

a million

I reread shadowsun's entry and do not see this 'million' you refer to.

In Aun'va's entry it talks about a million. It also talks about a million of them being used to take just five worlds. Granted, that's less the the Imperial guard would use (and lose) but vastly more then the SM would use. And that's not the entire might of the Tau empire, that's what was sent on one expedition.

1hadhq wrote:
Disagreed with, by the fanboi group.
Disproven? Not so much.

Well, we've only sited... pretty much all of the rulebook fluff, BL novels, rulebook crunch... they all pretty much agree that tau ships produced post Hero class are easily on par with IN, and that it's a long trip up out of a star's gravity well to make a 'safe' warp jump, even for speedy Marine ships.

Frankly, though, Rick Priestly, Andy Hoare, and Andy Chambers could all post on here that I'm right and a few people would still try to argue with them.

It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars. Would they be able to conquer the whole Empire? No, but they would certainly do a massive amount of damage to the Tau. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau? Yes, absolutely, and fairly easily too. They have more than enough resources to over-kill them, no question about it.

Kanluwen wrote:"Billions of Gue'vasa"?

Try "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" at best. The planets that the Tau have taken from the Imperium were not densely populated to begin with. Nor were the entire populations going over, like some suggest.

The Farsight Enclaves cannot be counted in the overall Tau military because the Farsight Enclaves refuse to have anything to do with the Tau Empire. They are, effectively, a self-governing provenance within the Tau Empire.

You also cannot count "25%" of the Air Caste as being "militarization", because the entirety of the Air Caste and Ethereal Castes are not militarized. You're looking at around 10% of the Air Caste being militarized, with the other 10% being civilian traffic, and the last 5% being associated with the Water Caste.

Plus your percentages are off anyways, because there's 5 Castes. 20%, maximum, if the entirety of the Castes militarization are somehow 'balanced'.

The "billions of Kroot" is also another fallacy, since only a small amount of Kroot are permanently serving with the Tau Empire. The majority are mercenaries, fighting elsewhere for pay.

The VAST majority of kroot serve the Empire. Only isolated pockets of kroot serve outside the Empire.

As to the percentages, the Ethereal caste has fewer members, as 1 leader per four followers would be complete idiocy. There are usually only a few dozen per fleet.

"associated with the water caste" IS civilian transportation. And civvies wouldn't need to fly as much as modern humans do. Each Tau has a job, and performs the job. There are no vacations in the 41st millenium. And each city is surrounded by it's own farmlands, so shipping wouldn't be a necessity either.

And yes, entire populaces join the Tau. The water caste works slowly, over generations, and makes the people comfortable around them. Plus, there have been SEVERAL worlds joining the Tau.

And yes, the Farsight Enclaves can be counted. If you are waging war on the Tau, you'll have to go through his fortress worlds. They are not the DA, where the traitors take absolute priority.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars. Would they be able to conquer the whole Empire? No, but they would certainly do a massive amount of damage to the Tau. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau? Yes, absolutely, and fairly easily too. They have more than enough resources to over-kill them, no question about it.

Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.

The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20

Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.

im2randomghgh wrote:They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.

And?
By your standards the Cadian "PDF" is the best PDF, ever, since they stalemated Abaddon's invading groundforces when he had space superiority.

In this case, you're not using the term "PDF" correctly. You're looking for the word "garrison".

"PDF" is used in 40k to describe moderately trained, moderately equipped human forces that are permanently stationed on their homeworld. They're a great Planetary Defense Force in that they're mainly expected to deal with uprisings on the planet and minor incursions from wayward Xenos threats, cults, et all. When things get more serious--the Imperial Guard get called in.

The Tau don't have a 'PDF' in that sense. They have what matches Cadia's PDF--an "Interior Guard" consisting of full Guard Regiments that have served in full campaigns, but now are held planetside as a garrison.

So to say "Tau PDF" did all that is a ridiculous argument. You're talking about a Fire Caste contingent that was on the planet, and had access to Manta Destroyers, Barracudas, et al in their defensive operations.

The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!

iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars. Would they be able to conquer the whole Empire? No, but they would certainly do a massive amount of damage to the Tau. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau? Yes, absolutely, and fairly easily too. They have more than enough resources to over-kill them, no question about it.

1. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau Empire? No.

2. Could the Black Templars destory a few planets in a shock attack? Yes.

1's Reason is simple, on a logistical scale it would cost other fronts dearly. So saying they could is like saying if my hands weren't tied I could punch you. Cool, good thing your hands are tied.

2's Reason is also simple, the Black Templars excel at combat and have 10,000 years of proven doctrine behind them.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
But that doesn't make any sense Baron.

If the Tau could field an army of 10 billion Fire Warriors it would mean they would have to have at least 15 densely populated worlds. Which according to the experts is impossible, the Tau with their 1800s medical technology have only 8 million citizens per planet and roughly only 6 planets!

It also means they would have the capability of waging continental campaigns during planetary invasions, while also defending other parts of their borders with substantial, yet logical numbers.

Due to the fact that the Tau only use several thousand units per campaign, you are suggesting they can muster a force with billions, if a few thousand could perform on the level that they have thus far, a few million could conquer a vast area surrounding the Tau Empire, with a few billion contesting the segmentum at some point.

This cannot be allowed as fact! It contradicts 40K as a whole! What you are suggesting is that the Tau are an Empire looking to expand, which the codex and multiple sources all contradict!
----

That's pretty much the running debate Tau players have to deal with.

Citation for 1800s medical technology please. Nothing I've read indicates it's lacking and everything I've read points to Tau tech in all areas being at least equal to IoM tech and exceeding it some areas (agriculture being one, Tau codex page 20).

As for population; I think we'll not get a solid estimate; however, page 5 of the codex deals with the 3rd phase expansion and tells of Shadowsun taking a "cluster" of IoM worlds and a human traitor assisting by convincing several worlds to surrender without a shot.

As for fighting forces; pages 22 and 23 of the Tau codex talk about the formations that Tau use.
1. Team: (6-12 firewarriors and their devilfish) or ad hoc units like IoM kill teams.
2. Cadre: Up to 6 firewarrior teams plus a number of stealth, battlesuit and pathfinder teams. A "handful" of hammerhead tanks and other vehicles. Auxiliary units like kroot and vespid. The sample on page 22 has a force of 83+ individuals (including vehicles).
3. Contingent: grouping of 3-6 Cadres.
4. Battle: a grouping of several contingents (number unspecified in the codex).
5. Command: all individuals belonging to a specific caste on a specific world. Led by the most senior commander.
6. Coalition: All 4 commands drawn together for a specific task (i.e. a force sent to conquer and colonize a new world).

I didn't see anything in Shadowsun's entry with numbers.

Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.

im2randomghgh wrote:They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.

And?
By your standards the Cadian "PDF" is the best PDF, ever, since they stalemated Abaddon's invading groundforces when he had space superiority.

In this case, you're not using the term "PDF" correctly. You're looking for the word "garrison".

"PDF" is used in 40k to describe moderately trained, moderately equipped human forces that are permanently stationed on their homeworld. They're a great Planetary Defense Force in that they're mainly expected to deal with uprisings on the planet and minor incursions from wayward Xenos threats, cults, et all. When things get more serious--the Imperial Guard get called in.

The Tau don't have a 'PDF' in that sense. They have what matches Cadia's PDF--an "Interior Guard" consisting of full Guard Regiments that have served in full campaigns, but now are held planetside as a garrison.

So to say "Tau PDF" did all that is a ridiculous argument. You're talking about a Fire Caste contingent that was on the planet, and had access to Manta Destroyers, Barracudas, et al in their defensive operations.

The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!

You're right, all they did was take down a 75 foot tall warmachine with fight-ending firepower with a skyray tank.

PDF refers to the primary military defense of a world.

The FW there were the primary military defense of a world.

wikipedia wrote:Garrison (various spellings) (from the French garnison, itself from the verb garnir, "to equip") is the collective term for a body of troops stationed in a particular location, originally to guard it, but now often simply using it as a home base. The garrison is usually a city, town, fort, castle or similar. "Garrison town" is a common expression for any town that has a military base nearby.

A PDF IS a garrison.

*le sigh*

I think the tag at the bottom of that was missed by skim reading.

The point I'm making is that some of the insane accusations against Tau often lack anything more than fan bred hatred for them.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"Billions of Gue'vasa"?

Try "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" at best. The planets that the Tau have taken from the Imperium were not densely populated to begin with. Nor were the entire populations going over, like some suggest.

The Farsight Enclaves cannot be counted in the overall Tau military because the Farsight Enclaves refuse to have anything to do with the Tau Empire. They are, effectively, a self-governing provenance within the Tau Empire.

You also cannot count "25%" of the Air Caste as being "militarization", because the entirety of the Air Caste and Ethereal Castes are not militarized. You're looking at around 10% of the Air Caste being militarized, with the other 10% being civilian traffic, and the last 5% being associated with the Water Caste.

Plus your percentages are off anyways, because there's 5 Castes. 20%, maximum, if the entirety of the Castes militarization are somehow 'balanced'.

The "billions of Kroot" is also another fallacy, since only a small amount of Kroot are permanently serving with the Tau Empire. The majority are mercenaries, fighting elsewhere for pay.

The VAST majority of kroot serve the Empire. Only isolated pockets of kroot serve outside the Empire.

Wrong.

As to the percentages, the Ethereal caste has fewer members, as 1 leader per four followers would be complete idiocy. There are usually only a few dozen per fleet.

Which still makes your numbers wrong. Just because one Caste has fewer members does not change the fact that your militarization numbers used the idea of 4 Castes, not 5.

"associated with the water caste" IS civilian transportation. And civvies wouldn't need to fly as much as modern humans do. Each Tau has a job, and performs the job. There are no vacations in the 41st millenium. And each city is surrounded by it's own farmlands, so shipping wouldn't be a necessity either.

The Water Caste do not operate entirely within the Tau Empire. Clearly someone as knowledgeable about the Tau as you should know that they have fleets that operate entirely outside of Tau space and serve as go-betweens for the Empire and the worlds they're hoping to claim.

And yes, entire populaces join the Tau.

No, they don't. More on that in a second though.

The water caste works slowly, over generations, and makes the people comfortable around them. Plus, there have been SEVERAL worlds joining the Tau.

There have been the governments of several worlds joining the Tau. Governments do not necessarily speak for the populace.
The fact that there are pro-Imperial resistance movements on some Tau held worlds should be proof enough of this. The fact that the Tau have to restrict the movements of the populace and force the Gue'vasa to earn their trust to operate their weaponry should also tell you this.
The Water Caste, by the by, doesn't "make the people comfortable around them". Their goal is to undermine Imperial doctrine on a planet and begin offering technology and trade that is done in such a way to hopefully spark a revolution.

And yes, the Farsight Enclaves can be counted. If you are waging war on the Tau, you'll have to go through his fortress worlds. They are not the DA, where the traitors take absolute priority.

No, they can't. The Farsight Enclaves cannot be counted simply because this is about the Tau Empire.

Not the Tau race as a whole. If you're going to be pedantic and split hairs about every single little bit of terminology, I have no problems repaying in kind.

iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars. Would they be able to conquer the whole Empire? No, but they would certainly do a massive amount of damage to the Tau. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau? Yes, absolutely, and fairly easily too. They have more than enough resources to over-kill them, no question about it.

Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.

It would take months if they want to wipe out the Tau and damn the consequences of destroying habitable planets.

That's what you're constantly discounting. The only shield the Tau have right now is that they're inhabiting planets that the Imperium could colonize.

The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20

"Deserted" counts those who were captured. Nobody "deserted" on Taros.

Someone who was wounded(by the by, majority of the wounded were captured) and then captured was considered to have "deserted".
Those who surrendered were considered "deserters".

The majority of those individuals the Tau killed by forcing them to work in the mines.

iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars.

Ah, yes, the fanboy card. I hear it a lot. I'm a space marine fanboy when defending them from nerfs/stupidity in bfg, I'm a tau fanboy when pointing out the flaws and inaccuracies in an epeen waving competition, I'm an chaos fanboy when pointing out that the Imperium can't actually cleanse the Eye of Terror, the list goes on... I'm waiting for someone to play the Godfrey, since that's where this is heading.

Space marines do lose, on occasion you know, even the Space Marine legions could be stalled and they were much more powerful and technologically advanced then current BTs.

Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.

I know, I've seen them try to argue with the fluff authors before, and usually fail.

Kanluwen wrote:
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!

Or a single marine can do with his power fist and plot armor.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.

im2randomghgh wrote:They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.

And?
By your standards the Cadian "PDF" is the best PDF, ever, since they stalemated Abaddon's invading groundforces when he had space superiority.

In this case, you're not using the term "PDF" correctly. You're looking for the word "garrison".

"PDF" is used in 40k to describe moderately trained, moderately equipped human forces that are permanently stationed on their homeworld. They're a great Planetary Defense Force in that they're mainly expected to deal with uprisings on the planet and minor incursions from wayward Xenos threats, cults, et all. When things get more serious--the Imperial Guard get called in.

The Tau don't have a 'PDF' in that sense. They have what matches Cadia's PDF--an "Interior Guard" consisting of full Guard Regiments that have served in full campaigns, but now are held planetside as a garrison.

So to say "Tau PDF" did all that is a ridiculous argument. You're talking about a Fire Caste contingent that was on the planet, and had access to Manta Destroyers, Barracudas, et al in their defensive operations.

The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!

You're right, all they did was take down a 75 foot tall warmachine with fight-ending firepower with a skyray tank.

Cite a source. Because the only times I've seen Tau mentioned taking down Titans was with Mantas or Tiger Sharks with railguns.

So I'm calling bull until then.

PDF refers to the primary military defense of a world.

No, it doesn't. It refers to a specific organization, equipped in a specific way, and trained in a specific way for a specific task.

The FW there were the primary military defense of a world.

And yet, they're still not "PDF". They are a garrison.

wikipedia wrote:Garrison (various spellings) (from the French garnison, itself from the verb garnir, "to equip") is the collective term for a body of troops stationed in a particular location, originally to guard it, but now often simply using it as a home base. The garrison is usually a city, town, fort, castle or similar. "Garrison town" is a common expression for any town that has a military base nearby.

Gee, it's almost like you're not getting this.

A PDF IS a garrison.

You are wrong.

A Planetary Defense Force is a garrison, but it is also a specific organization. When you use the 'all caps' version, you are comparing the Tau Fire Warriors who were stationed on that planet to the 'meh' trained individuals and underequipped individuals which make up the majority of the Imperial PDFs.

This is a fallacious comparison. The Fire Warriors there would have been trained and equipped to the same standard as the Fire Warriors serving against the Orks on the outskirts of the Tau Empire. This makes them a 'garrison force of Fire Warriors', which would make them--if you're going to insist on comparing them to something "Interior Guard"--not "PDF".

BaronIveagh wrote:And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.

They're faster yes, but while individually superior they would be hopelessly outnumbered in a straight-up fight. The Imperial Navy, on the other hand, would have little trouble finding the spare ships to bring enough firepower and Guardsmen to eradicate the whole of the Tau, were they not currently busy dealing with the Tyranids, who've managed to destroy a whopping .02% of the Imperium.


Their ground forces can't be anywhere near even one billion strong. Were there even that many, and so much as half of them were combat-ready, they'd have sufficient force to garrison every one of their worlds with five million firewarriors. Naturally they wouldn't spread them evenly, so they'd mostly be concentrated on septs and borderworlds, since most colonies would be either unimportant or otherwise insulated within the Empire. Because most worlds wouldn't warrant a sizable garrison, that means they'd have more to spare on important border conflicts. What we see with those for which we have numbers places the numbers they commit to defending their borders in the low thousands per world, well under a thousandth of what even a total active strength of 500 million would allow as a baseline garrison. What this suggests is a total strength in the low tens of millions, most of which is concentrated on the sept worlds. The "there must be tens of billions of Tau, and all the castes have to be roughly equal, so there must be ten billion firewarriors" argument lacks any solid foundation, for total numbers (the Tau have one ten thousandth the number of planets the Imperium has, yes, but only a handful of those are even as populated as the lower end for Imperial worlds, and the rest are just minor outposts), evidence that the castes have remotely similar numbers to one another, or even evidence that any significant portion of the fire caste meets the standards for military service.