Black Templar Crusade into the Tau Empire.

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**Kanluwen**

BaronIveagh wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars.

Ah, yes, the fanboy card. I hear it a lot. I'm a space marine fanboy when defending them from nerfs/stupidity in bfg, I'm a tau fanboy when pointing out the flaws and inaccuracies in an epeen waving competition, I'm an chaos fanboy when pointing out that the Imperium can't actually cleanse the Eye of Terror, the list goes on... I'm waiting for someone to play the Godfrey, since that's where this is heading.

Space marines do lose, on occasion you know, even the Space Marine legions could be stalled and they were much more powerful and technologically advanced then current BTs.

Space Marines do lose, nobody's debating that. The idea that the Tau will have the entirety of their fleet at any given world to prevent a full-scale Black Templar Crusade(with all of the Black Templar fleet and forces present), and that they would somehow be able to stop the Black Templars every single time is what's being debated.

Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.

I know, I've seen them try to argue with the fluff authors before, and usually fail.

Most of this is the problem simply that each author has a different view of the world. Andy Chambers helped create the Tau as they were, but at the same time he's helping create who they are becoming.
Andy Hoare is just...special. I don't dislike the guy, but I do dislike some of the books he's written--especially regarding the Tau, since it's so blatantly exactly what people accuse the SM books of being.

Kanluwen wrote:
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!

Or a single marine can do with his power fist and plot armor.

I haven't seen a single Marine with or without plot armor do it for awhile.

I've seen Terminator Squads do it though.

**BaronIveagh**

Kanluwen wrote:
There have been the governments of several worlds joining the Tau. Governments do not necessarily speak for the populace.
The fact that there are pro-Imperial resistance movements on some Tau held worlds should be proof enough of this. The fact that the Tau have to restrict the movements of the populace and force the Gue'vasa to earn their trust to operate their weaponry should also tell you this.

The problem there is it's not really clear how numerous these movements are. There's a difference between a movement that's a significant portion of the population base, and one that's fifteen angry men with some knowledge of improvised munitions. And the Imperium has problems with Pro-tau guerrillas as well, so...

Kanluwen wrote:
It would take months if they want to wipe out the Tau and damn the consequences of destroying habitable planets.

That's what you're constantly discounting. The only shield the Tau have right now is that they're inhabiting planets that the Imperium could colonize.

In fluff Imperial planners have stated they could win, but it could be a decades long meat grinder on par with the blood bath that was the Sabbat Crusade, since the Imperial supply chain would be rather long and the Tau could freely reenforce from near by worlds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
I haven't seen a single Marine with or without plot armor do it for awhile.

Storm of Iron

**Sir Pseudonymous**

BaronIveagh wrote:
In Aun'va's entry it talks about a million. It also talks about a million of them being used to take just five worlds. Granted, that's less the the Imperial guard would use (and lose)

That's about ten times the largest figure given for the Damocles Gulf crusade (nineteen regiments, though outside this thread I've never seen it placed at more than two, and Lexicanum only names two, with no mention of an additional seventeen; it also only lists five ships, and no titans)...

**BeefCakeSoup**

Dal'yth Prime wasn't defended by a "PDF" of Tau.

It was moderately defended with ground forces and had a comperable fleet in orbit comprised of a retreating fleet and a local orbital defense + fleet.

In orbit the Tau were defeated in a narrow battle that left the Tau without orbital assests and the Imperium utterly crippled with few cap ships and only enough fighters to escort landing craft and protect supply lines. This left them at the mercy of any outside forces that may have arrived to aid in the conflict. Later the chance to blockcade them was passed when the Tau, being an enlightened race allowed them to leave.

A more detailed campaign description is on war wiki and pretty well sourced. It displays how early Imperial victories were also more eventful than some of the single sentence dex descriptions.

Conflict was pretty brutal with some serious wins on both sides. Toward the end of the ground fighting, a capable Guard leader had a shot at routing about 15,000 FW if im not mistaken. He halted his advance and opted for a withdrawal instead though, a wise choice considering his momentum was a temporary push dependant on aerial assets that had a limited window before having to return to the orbital fleet.

**1hadhq**

im2randomghgh wrote:

Well, as to the number of fire warriors, the Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM, but with hundreds upon hundreds times more militarization per capita. The IoM would be somewhere around 0.01% militarization, whereas the Tau are 25% (50% if you count the air caste navy [plus an unknown number of Ethereals who fight at the front]) plus their billions of kroot (since all kroot are combat-capable) and an unknown number of stingwings, nicassar, billions of Gue'vesa etc. 10 billion is a conservative estimate in my opinion.

+ the almost entirely militarized Farsight Enclaves

Still wholly out-matched by the imperium, but 1 million is WAY underselling the total number of Tau.

Did I say total number or did I say 3rd sphere expansion?

Secondly, until you provide a source for a Tau worlds population and a reasonable militarization level, that is based on what GW wrote and not on your assumption that 4 castes = 25% firewarriors, I'll certainly take your estimate as personal opinion, but never as numbers to draw conclusion from.
Thirdly, vespids have a single home world, nicassar do not enter the 40k background of the tabletop in any size to make them more than a sidenote.. Gue'vesa are dropped as concept, try to get fluff or lists from GW now. Kroot live a nomads, and those aren't numerous.
Its pretty much presented by GW as Tau firewarriors and a few additional Auxilaries of Kroot or Vespids.
Thus many Tau, only a few other xenos when its about their military.

Lets see: if 32840000 hive worlds are the IoM and 16 septs are the Tau, this would be 2052500:1
Either the IoM only counts the ecosphere of their planets as its own and the Tau count the whole space they have ever seen as their own, or you got the size wrong.
Remember: GW never told you the scale of their maps. (and I doubt there is any..).

**Kanluwen**

BaronIveagh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
There have been the governments of several worlds joining the Tau. Governments do not necessarily speak for the populace.
The fact that there are pro-Imperial resistance movements on some Tau held worlds should be proof enough of this. The fact that the Tau have to restrict the movements of the populace and force the Gue'vasa to earn their trust to operate their weaponry should also tell you this.

The problem there is it's not really clear how numerous these movements are. There's a difference between a movement that's a significant portion of the population base, and one that's fifteen angry men with some knowledge of improvised munitions. And the Imperium has problems with Pro-tau guerrillas as well, so...

Yeah, but by that same logic it doesn't mean those worlds are wholly supporting the Tau.

Kanluwen wrote:
It would take months if they want to wipe out the Tau and damn the consequences of destroying habitable planets.

That's what you're constantly discounting. The only shield the Tau have right now is that they're inhabiting planets that the Imperium could colonize.

In fluff Imperial planners have stated they could win, but it could be a decades long meat grinder on par with the blood bath that was the Sabbat Crusade, since the Imperial supply chain would be rather long and the Tau could freely reenforce from near by worlds.

Which is why I made the important caveat of "destroying habitable planets".

If the Imperium really wanted the Tau dead, the Inquisition has Kill-Ships which can destroy the worlds they're on.
The only real solution the Imperium has, right now, if they want to eradicate the Tau is to either destroy an entire region's worth of habitable planets or a lengthy ground campaign on an enemy's home turf.

Losing habitable worlds doesn't sit too well with the Imperium. It's why Kryptmann got in such trouble for his 'idea' regarding the Tyranid Hive Fleets and stopping them.

Kanluwen wrote:
I haven't seen a single Marine with or without plot armor do it for awhile.

Storm of Iron

I said "for awhile".

And Storm of Iron was terrible. So it's got that going for it!

**SilverMK2**

During the Horus Heresy Fulgrim completely destroys an entire high technology planet in a month, wiping out an entire race with 10,000 (ish) marines.

6,000 angry BT with IG and IN support would cut through the outer sphere worlds in weeks.

I would imagine that the Tau would then heavily fortify a few key worlds which the BT would hit like a hammer, shattering a large amount of the overall Tau war effort in relatively short order. Perhaps a couple of months at most?

With the main response of the Tau crushed the BT would then strike at the core worlds, driving wedges between the Tau worlds, fracturing their ability to respond in force and forcing them into pockets of resistance which would then be crushed one at a time.

**Nerivant**

SilverMK2 wrote:During the Horus Heresy Fulgrim completely destroys an entire high technology planet in a month, wiping out an entire race with 10,000 (ish) marines.

6,000 angry BT with IG and IN support would cut through the outer sphere worlds in weeks.

Wait, so Fulgrim wipes out a single, high tech planet with 10000 marines, so the BT can take 6000 and wipe out 100? Not following your reasoning.

**BaronIveagh**

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
In Aun'va's entry it talks about a million. It also talks about a million of them being used to take just five worlds. Granted, that's less the the Imperial guard would use (and lose)

That's about ten times the largest figure given for the Damocles Gulf crusade (nineteen regiments, though outside this thread I've never seen it placed at more than two, and Lexicanum only names two, with no mention of an additional seventeen; it also only lists five ships, and no titans)...

Actually per planet, that's only about twice as many. (200k vs 95k) Though, again, with the Gaurd it's hard to say: guard units patterned after Cadian ones are about 5k men per regiment. Kreig Regiments can be, if the figures for vraks are to be believed, almost 250,000 troopers on their own. So it depends on who the unit is patterend how many men per regiment.

**im2randomghgh**

Kanluwen wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.

im2randomghgh wrote:They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.

And?
By your standards the Cadian "PDF" is the best PDF, ever, since they stalemated Abaddon's invading groundforces when he had space superiority.

In this case, you're not using the term "PDF" correctly. You're looking for the word "garrison".

"PDF" is used in 40k to describe moderately trained, moderately equipped human forces that are permanently stationed on their homeworld. They're a great Planetary Defense Force in that they're mainly expected to deal with uprisings on the planet and minor incursions from wayward Xenos threats, cults, et all. When things get more serious--the Imperial Guard get called in.

The Tau don't have a 'PDF' in that sense. They have what matches Cadia's PDF--an "Interior Guard" consisting of full Guard Regiments that have served in full campaigns, but now are held planetside as a garrison.

So to say "Tau PDF" did all that is a ridiculous argument. You're talking about a Fire Caste contingent that was on the planet, and had access to Manta Destroyers, Barracudas, et al in their defensive operations.

The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!

You're right, all they did was take down a 75 foot tall warmachine with fight-ending firepower with a skyray tank.

Cite a source. Because the only times I've seen Tau mentioned taking down Titans was with Mantas or Tiger Sharks with railguns.

So I'm calling bull until then.

PDF refers to the primary military defense of a world.

No, it doesn't. It refers to a specific organization, equipped in a specific way, and trained in a specific way for a specific task.

The FW there were the primary military defense of a world.

And yet, they're still not "PDF". They are a garrison.

wikipedia wrote:Garrison (various spellings) (from the French garnison, itself from the verb garnir, "to equip") is the collective term for a body of troops stationed in a particular location, originally to guard it, but now often simply using it as a home base. The garrison is usually a city, town, fort, castle or similar. "Garrison town" is a common expression for any town that has a military base nearby.

Gee, it's almost like you're not getting this.

A PDF IS a garrison.

You are wrong.

A Planetary Defense Force is a garrison, but it is also a specific organization. When you use the 'all caps' version, you are comparing the Tau Fire Warriors who were stationed on that planet to the 'meh' trained individuals and underequipped individuals which make up the majority of the Imperial PDFs.

This is a fallacious comparison. The Fire Warriors there would have been trained and equipped to the same standard as the Fire Warriors serving against the Orks on the outskirts of the Tau Empire. This makes them a 'garrison force of Fire Warriors', which would make them--if you're going to insist on comparing them to something "Interior Guard"--not "PDF".

1. In Savage Scars, the Tau markerlighted a Warhound till it was pretty much all red then used non-direct missile fire to destroy it.

2. I got my definition of PDF from the warhammer40k wiki.

3. They are a force meant to defend a planet. A Planetary Defense Force.

4. It is all caps because it is an acronym.

Either way, we are arguing semantics. My point was proven, as the Tau do dedicate the vast majority of it's Firewarriors to defending planets, call these armies whatever you will.

As for the Water Caste having pilots, the Water Caste are accompanied by hunter cadres wherever they go. In Courage and Honour, There was a small scouting army of Tau, just an escort for a water/ethereal caste party negociating with the governor, that took The Imperial Guard (forget how many regiments), the PDF, the Arbites, and a full company of Ultrasmurfs to defeat. A Scout army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!

Or a single marine can do with his power fist and plot armor.

I haven't seen a single Marine with or without plot armor do it for awhile.

I've seen Terminator Squads do it though.

In Storm of Iron a single space marine climbed the outside of a titan and killed it's crew.

**BaronIveagh**

SilverMK2 wrote:During the Horus Heresy Fulgrim completely destroys an entire high technology planet in a month, wiping out an entire race with 10,000 (ish) marines.

It still took him a month. With an entire legion, and all the starships under his command who were (and still are) superior to their current counterparts. And that was one world.

**im2randomghgh**

BaronIveagh wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:During the Horus Heresy Fulgrim completely destroys an entire high technology planet in a month, wiping out an entire race with 10,000 (ish) marines.

It still took him a month. With an entire legion, and all the starships under his command who were (and still are) superior to their current counterparts. And that was one world.

And there were only a few cities too. Nowhere to hide in between them, only ocean.

**SilverMK2**

Nerivant wrote:Wait, so Fulgrim wipes out a single, high tech planet with 10000 marines, so the BT can take 6000 and wipe out 100? Not following your reasoning.

The reasoning being that the majority of Tau worlds are essentially uninhabited as far as Imperial worlds go. The Tau race simply does not have the numbers to defend each world sufficiently to protect against 6000 marines and associated Imperial Guard regiments and navy.

Thus the Imperium does not have to attack all 100 worlds, it only has to draw the Tau into battle on a handful of them to weaken their military strength sufficiently that the rest of their planets will essentially be undefended.

If you think, most battles are fought without the SM being present and it is very rare for SM to fight in warzones. Off the top of my head Armageddon and Macragge are some of the few planets which has seen any significant number of SM fighting as a combined force.

Macragge had 2 full companies of Ultramarines (including almost their entire first company) and "elements" of 2 others and they shattered an entire hive fleet on their defenses. With, at the very most, 500 marines.

What chance then do the Tau have against 6000?

**agnosto**

Tau force size.

IA:3, page 146 gives details of the numbers of forces involved. The Taros force was a coalition which means a gathering of all of the activated units of one Sept world but it only gives the numbers of firewarriors, not the other 3 castes involved. At least 100 hunter Cadres.
Firewarriors: 8-9,000
Kroot: 5,000
Traiter Humans that fought on the side of the Tau: about 8,000.

So based on that; figure each Tau Sept world can produce a like amount of troops would mean a combined force (barring kroot, vespid, gue'vesa), you can get a general idea.

**SilverMK2**

im2randomghgh wrote:And there were only a few cities too. Nowhere to hide in between them, only ocean.

There were also sub-oceanic cities.

And as far as it goes in the narrative, every single entity on that planet was engaged in the fighting, having been modified to a greater or lesser extent to do so.

**iproxtaco**

agnosto wrote:Tau force size.

IA:3, page 146 gives details of the numbers of forces involved. The Taros force was a coalition which means a gathering of all of the activated units of one Sept world but it only gives the numbers of firewarriors, not the other 3 castes involved. At least 100 hunter Cadres.
Firewarriors: 8-9,000
Kroot: 5,000
Traiter Humans that fought on the side of the Tau: about 8,000.

So based on that; figure each Tau Sept world can produce a like amount of troops would mean a combined force (barring kroot, vespid, gue'vesa), you can get a general idea.

So nowhere even close to a single billion.

**agnosto**

iproxtaco wrote:
agnosto wrote:Tau force size.

IA:3, page 146 gives details of the numbers of forces involved. The Taros force was a coalition which means a gathering of all of the activated units of one Sept world but it only gives the numbers of firewarriors, not the other 3 castes involved. At least 100 hunter Cadres.
Firewarriors: 8-9,000
Kroot: 5,000
Traiter Humans that fought on the side of the Tau: about 8,000.

So based on that; figure each Tau Sept world can produce a like amount of troops would mean a combined force (barring kroot, vespid, gue'vesa), you can get a general idea.

So nowhere even close to a single billion.

Not if you take the coalition on Taros as a representative example. Bear in mind that they won't leave a sept world completely undefended so add another....20%? to that number to be fair.

**iproxtaco**

A billion is a huge exaggeration of the probable number on Firewarriors the Tau has. I would put the number at 2 million, if every single available warrior was raised, taking into account the greater number garrisoned on major Sept worlds like you said.

**Nerivant**

SilverMK2 wrote:

What chance then do the Tau have against 6000?

Considering they have a much more than that in XV8 suits alone... a great one.

**SilverMK2**

Nerivant wrote:Considering they have a much more than that in XV8 suits alone... a great one.

However, 6000 marines would also be supported by an appropriate number of guardsmen and navy ships. It would quite literally be a force not seen since the original crusades.

**Nerivant**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Nerivant wrote:Considering they have a much more than that in XV8 suits alone... a great one.

However, 6000 marines would also be supported by an appropriate number of guardsmen and navy ships. It would quite literally be a force not seen since the original crusades.

And here I thought BT crusades were very self-contained.

**KamikazeCanuck**

I'm going to go with the BTs. During the HH entire sectors where crushed in a week with just a few hundred Marines. 6,000 Astartes is a massive force even during The Great Crusade. Tau-like enclaves were wiped out every other week at that time and this would be no different.

**Brother Coa**

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM

Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?

**iproxtaco**

Nerivant wrote:
SilverMK2 wrote:
Nerivant wrote:Considering they have a much more than that in XV8 suits alone... a great one.

However, 6000 marines would also be supported by an appropriate number of guardsmen and navy ships. It would quite literally be a force not seen since the original crusades.

And here I thought BT crusades were very self-contained.

There's a difference between being self sufficient and having support.
The Black Templars would be able to sustain themselves, being a large fleet-based chapter. They would, if they ever decided to launch a crusade against the Tau, be supported by a whole lot of Guard regiments, a whole lot of Imperial Navy ships, certainly MORE than enough to destroy the Tau, although it would be lengthy, cost is not a factor with The Imperium.

Typing this I realised you said contained, which is different, in which case no, they are not.

**Brother Coa**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.

The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20

Wit so many Commisars? I don't think so...
And don't use Taros please. Taros is a peace of C*** that was given to the Tau to have at least 1 victory over Imperium.

**iproxtaco**

Brother Coa wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM

Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?

The fact that Tau have about 100 worlds, and the Imperium has about a 1,000,000, therefore, the Tau is 1:10,000 the size of the Imperium. In population the ratio is even bigger, as few Tau worlds are densely populated, and even then they are nothing compared to an average Imperial civilised world.

**Sir Pseudonymous**

SilverMK2 wrote:
Nerivant wrote:Wait, so Fulgrim wipes out a single, high tech planet with 10000 marines, so the BT can take 6000 and wipe out 100? Not following your reasoning.

The reasoning being that the majority of Tau worlds are essentially uninhabited as far as Imperial worlds go. The Tau race simply does not have the numbers to defend each world sufficiently to protect against 6000 marines and associated Imperial Guard regiments and navy.

Thus the Imperium does not have to attack all 100 worlds, it only has to draw the Tau into battle on a handful of them to weaken their military strength sufficiently that the rest of their planets will essentially be undefended.

If you think, most battles are fought without the SM being present and it is very rare for SM to fight in warzones. Off the top of my head Armageddon and Macragge are some of the few planets which has seen any significant number of SM fighting as a combined force.

Macragge had 2 full companies of Ultramarines (including almost their entire first company) and "elements" of 2 others and they shattered an entire hive fleet on their defenses. With, at the very most, 500 marines.

What chance then do the Tau have against 6000?

The Marines at Ultramar did exactly nothing worthwhile. The Imperial Navy was responsible for the destruction of the fleet, and the conventional forces Calgar abandoned on Ultramar were the ones to rout the tyranids on the surface, while the Marines there just ran and hid in holes in the ground, where they died to no particular end.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm going to go with the BTs. During the HH entire sectors where crushed in a week with just a few hundred Marines. 6,000 Astartes is a massive force even during The Great Crusade. Tau-like enclaves were wiped out every other week at that time and this would be no different.

6,000 Space Marines is roughly equal to 72,000 Guardsmen. The apparent figures for the Damocles Gulf Crusade were 100,000 Guardsmen. It cut through the Tau worlds like a grizzly bear through miniaturized dogs, but in the end it stalled out on a heavily fortified sept world, much like the proverbial grizzly bear becoming worn out and getting eaten by ridiculous poodles the size of chihuahuas in its sleep.

**iproxtaco**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.

The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20

The Imperium has more than enough resources to destroy the Tau, and it would take about 5 years. 40% is wishful thinking.
I'd say about 0.05%, and those would be very isolated and under very specific circumstances.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait, 6000 Space Marines are equal to 72000 Guardsmen? Since when was a single chapter worth less than the average regiment? Never, a single chapter is worth about 50 regiments.

**Nerivant**

Brother Coa wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.

The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20

Wit so many Commisars? I don't think so...
And don't use Taros please. Taros is a peace of C*** that was given to the Tau to have at least 1 victory over Imperium.

It doesn't cease to exist because you don't like it.

**iproxtaco**

im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.

The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20

Don't just pull numbers out of the air. Where in IA does it give you those numbers?