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We only need these codexs:

1. Eldar
2. Dark Eldar
3. Space Wolves (The only unique SM army)
4. Space marines (With BA, DA and BT)
5. Chaos Legions, renegades, LaTD and Demons
6. Necrons
7. Tau
8. Nids
9. IG
10. Inqusitian

Saldiven wrote:Ironically, to this day, I know far more DE players than SOB players,

As to why DE never caught on, the major reason is the horrible model range.

Even orks, who had an even older codex, were featured more by GW during that same time.

SoBs have much longer history than DE, with a full 2E Codex, but being an all-metal range (and priced as such) in an increasingly plastic-centric environment has has further limited Sisters uptake as the game has grown. Back in 3E, when DE models were new, and competitive on both price and looks, I knew only 1 primary DE player and 1 Sisters player. Since then, I haven't seen any significant (i.e. large) DE armies, but I have seen a couple SoB armies. I'd say that the numbers are roughly comparable, with the Sisters having the edge. But when you talk about (arbitrary numbers, for discussion) 1% vs 2%, both are well down from the 40+% that SM command.

DE had perfectly adequate models when released. The main reason had to have been a lack of secondary sales. Typically, DE have been Warrior-centric for ages, especially as they were virtually "FREE" in the boxed set, and would have been gotten from other players merely for the asking. I remember a *LOT* of conversations that went like this: "Oh, you're collecting Dark Eldar? I've got the starter models if you want them..." Any decent sized playgroup comes up with 100-odd DE models in no time flat. And with individual bitz being available, specialist models are easy, too. Plastic means that Archons are just another quick conversion. I wouldn't be surprised to find that DE sold virtually nothing outside the 3E starter sets, which is why they are where they are. With GW not making individual bitz available, DE would be far more expensive today - like Tau.

Orks sold decently in 3E. I remember a couple guys having huge Ork armies.

GW features stuff which sells, you know, rather than pushing stuff that doesn't.

DE Warriors are terrible models. Raiders are decent, but logistically a pain. Those have been significant obstacles to people who were interested in the army. I’ve still seen more DE armies than WH or SoB.

Manchu wrote:
Point taken, but the problem is that BA are Codex variant in the fluff whereas WS are not.

I was just about to ask when this HUGE change came about when I found this:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
But that's only from a rules perspective. From a fluff perspective WS (and IH) are absolutely not ok in C:SM. The Index Astartes articles had some really nice fluff for them. WS had no dreadnoughts and they fielded attack bike squadrons instead of devastator squads. They were organized into "brotherhoods" each led by a "khan" rather than companies led by captains. Then the SM codex comes out and we have Korsarro Khan, whose title is "captain of the 3rd company" (evidently "Khan" is just his last name or something). And even worse, there is all this fluff talking up how really really closely WS follow the codex and how they really really want to be as much like Ultramarines as they possibly can. And now it seems like every time there's a fluff mention of IH it's always something to do with their chapter master and terminator squads (neither of which they were supposed to have).

Total retcon.

WHAT?! This is utterly ridiculous. I don't have a White Scars army (nor have I really been following 40k since early 4th edition) but I don't like good fluff and interesting armies being retconned into oblivion for practically no reason.

Don't get too upset there.

I am still convinced that Abbadabbadon is missing the point about the flexibility of the SM codex--both in terms of the rules and the Codex Astartes. DA and BA may not totally deserve treatment as "divergent" chapters but White Scars certainly don't either. White Scars, it seems to me, don't represent as radical a divergence from Codex Astartes as they do another way to build an army list that is totally possible within the confines of SM 5th. It is obvious that enough of their fluff has survived the supposed retcon because we all know that they are some sort of Mongolian Biker chapter just like we all know that the SW are some sort of Space Viking chapter. I have never heard before (although I have heard far, far, far from it all) that White Scars were ever as distinct as SW. On the contrary, I have heard that White Scars were Gulliman's strongest supporters when he wanted to institute the Codex.

Lord-Loss wrote:We only need these codexs:

1. Eldar
2. Dark Eldar
3. Space Wolves (The only unique SM army)
4. Space marines (With BA, DA and BT)
5. Chaos Legions, renegades, LaTD and Demons
6. Necrons
7. Tau
8. Nids
9. IG
10. Inqusitian

technically we don't NEED any codexes... This is just a game after all.

But I'll play...

Eldar have been going extinct since 1st edition, it's time GW actually read their own fluff and dropped codex Eldar since there shouldn't be enough of them left to make a whole army. Just make them a unit in codex Alien Hunters or Codex Space Pirates and they're covered. Or maybe they can join the Tau Federation.

Both Orks and Nids fill similar niches as a the close-combat aliens so they can be compressed into one codex just double list all the units ie Slugga Boys/Hormaguants or Kila Kan/Carnifex.

All space marine chapters can be covered in one book, really it's only a question of paint jobs and what bitz you glue on.

This frees up space for 3 Inquisition books, Chaos Marines, Chaos Legions, Chaos Cults and Chaos Daemons, and Genestealer Cults which are the truely essential armies. Oh and Codex Catachans of course. And Codex Tanith.

In a way I think that both SoB and DE are not special enough to make an army out of. SoB are mostly just guard with power armour and DE, well, they are Eldar with spikey bits (granted I loved the concept for the grotesques) They need to make them more than just a pre-existing army with a special trick and some fluff. That is why Tau are so popular I think. They were unlike anything when they came out.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
technically we don't NEED any codexes... This is just a game after all.

But I'll play...

Eldar have been going extinct since 1st edition, it's time GW actually read their own fluff and dropped codex Eldar since there shouldn't be enough of them left to make a whole army. Just make them a unit in codex Alien Hunters or Codex Space Pirates and they're covered. Or maybe they can join the Tau Federation.

Both Orks and Nids fill similar niches as a the close-combat aliens so they can be compressed into one codex just double list all the units ie Slugga Boys/Hormaguants or Kila Kan/Carnifex.

All space marine chapters can be covered in one book, really it's only a question of paint jobs and what bitz you glue on.

This frees up space for 3 Inquisition books, Chaos Marines, Chaos Legions, Chaos Cults and Chaos Daemons, and Genestealer Cults which are the truely essential armies. Oh and Codex Catachans of course. And Codex Tanith.

So your plan is to combine races into less books to make way for more? Combining races like the Tyranids and Orks would take away room to expand on the fluff of the races that are combined into a single codex like you suggest. I believe that the fluff is what gets most players interested in there army to begin with. The exception to this would be armies that had similar backgrounds

You want to get rid of one of the armies that have been around the longest for fluff considerations? If GW followed there own fluff a Space Marine army would consist of a Drop pod and 10 Marines. In the 3rd edition Space Marine codex 70 Marines destroy a planets entire military infilstucture and assassinate the planetary govenor in 7 days.

Three Inquisition books could be released as a single codex considering WH and DH currently consist of Inquisitors, Assassins, Grey Knights, Sisters, Storm Troopers, and allies. Sternguard have similar rules for the Deathwatch and I can't think of special alien killing wargear better than the Heavy Bolter, and Flamer.

Chaos Marines, and Daemons were in one codex before so why not again? If they fixed problems with the 3.5 codex like the ability to infiltrate entire armies, or taking out the ability to change the force org chart that codex would be fine. Chaos cults should be compiled into a Lost and the Damned Codex which would give us Renegade Marines, Traitor Guard, and Mutants. (Think Codex: Eye of Terror)

Catachans, and Tanith? I love Gaunt's Ghosts as much as the next black library reader, but the new guard codex is just fine in my opinion without codex light armored jungle fighters who dissapear into the trees, and codex light armored guardsman who dissapear everywhere.

Manchu wrote: I have never heard before (although I have heard far, far, far from it all) that White Scars were ever as distinct as SW. On the contrary, I have heard that White Scars were Gulliman's strongest supporters when he wanted to institute the Codex.

Most of the fluff I've read, which is almost all pre-4th edition material, puts Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists as Guilliman's right-hand man, and his chapter as the 2nd-most rigorous adherents of the Codex after the Ultramarines themselves. In the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex, the White Scars are not listed on the two-page spread Codex Chapter paint schemes.


Text about the White Scars organization from Index Astartes I:

The remainder of the Chapter is organized slightly differently to most Codex Chapters, due to the higher proportion of bike squads and land speeder squadrons. The White Scars preferred fighting style does not allow them the use of as many heavy weapons as other Chapters and as a result they have no Devastator Squads. Their reliance on fast moving fire support also means that most tanks are too slow for the White Scars and those they do have are stripped down versions that can keep up with the rest of the army. Dreadnoughts are not employed by the White Scars, as the cold, metal sarcophagi of these mighty constructions evokes a horror of eternal confinement that goes against the White Scars' philosophy that when a warrior dies, his soul should be free to travel the afterlife.

A sample of the special rules in the IA army list:

-Bikes re-roll failed Difficult Terrain tests.
-Bike Squadrons are a Troops choice up to 10 models strong, and can take extra CCW for +1A.
-Power Lances: PW w/+1 Initiative when charging/counter-attacking, -1 Initiative otherwise
-Termies and tac squads must have transports.
-Command squads/vets can be bike mounted. If not, they MUST take transports too.
-Attack Bike squads are Heavy Support.

Basically the intention was to allow the player to deploy an entire army of Space Marines mounted on bikes, because as long as I have been playing GW games (since about 1994) that's been the popular conception of the White Scars. Pretty much every memory I have of seeing them in White Dwarf, for example, is of Mongols on Bikes. Nothing else. This army *cannot* be replicated with the 40k5 SM codex (no bike-mounted Troops choices), and unlike the DA who only have 1 "abnormal" bike company with the Ravenwing, the *entire* White Scars chapter operates like this. I'd also argue that this is far more distinct (due to it's somewhat one-dimensional and inflexible nature) than the Space Wolves, who can more or less field every type of "normal" Space Marine unit choice, just with a slant towards being better at close combat, extra HQs, and having some pet wolves tag along.

Noble713 wrote:Basically the intention was to allow the player to deploy an entire army of Space Marines mounted on bikes, because as long as I have been playing GW games (since about 1994) that's been the popular conception of the White Scars. Pretty much every memory I have of seeing them in White Dwarf, for example, is of Mongols on Bikes. Nothing else.

This army *cannot* be replicated with the 40k5 SM codex (no bike-mounted Troops choices), and unlike the DA who only have 1 "abnormal" bike company with the Ravenwing, the *entire* White Scars chapter operates like this.

"Mounted Assault - If your army includes a Captain on SM bike, SM Bike squads of 5+ models may be taken as Troops."
C: SM, p.132

Khan has the Mounted Assault rule, too.

Bike-mounted units:
HQ
- Chapter Master, Captain, Khan
- Librarian, Chaplain, MotF, Techmarine
- Command Squad

Troops
- SM Bikers (Mounted Assault)

Fast
- SM Bikers, Scout Bikers, Attack Bikes

IMO, it'd have been better to force WS to play as Ravenwing to remove the Bike overlap, but this is OK, too.

____

JohnHwangDD wrote:1 - Red Space Marines don't need defending - they're going to get their Codex. Eventually. Deserved or not.

Or, according to BoLS, Blood Angels will get their Codex on the heels of the Nid Codex - Q2 next year.

Yay!

C: SM, I hardly new ye. I look forward to all Assault Marines, all the time!

I guess that's what I get for just skimming through a copy of the codex instead of, ya know, actually being familiar with it (or with 5th edition in general).

*ducks back to the WHFB forums*

You sir have irked me. All those "armies" (8-3) are meant to be in the do not ever remake pile. They have been eating by tyranids then the slime left turned over to nurgle which has been used as a fertiliser on nurgles garden. Leave them were they belong.

Blood Angels is a good update one knowone would have suspected making 2 uber close combat marine armies close together is a kinda smart thing gets people choosing what army to play.

A reason for a BA 'dex in the near future is the release of Space Hulk
with all those nice BA Termies.
Similarly, Nids are released while Space Hulk contains
new Genestealer models.

InquisitorBob wrote:

Manchu wrote:The models need retooling. Who'd play Space Marines if they still looked like this:


Ugh.

Woaaaaaa whaT's the top left guy holding there?
It.. doesn't look so much as a weapon.. And what it could be scares me. >.>

It's the much-feared POWER BANANA.

Rico.

BA will get a 'dex without a doubt...

Ripister wrote:You sir have irked me. All those "armies" (8-3) are meant to be in the do not ever remake pile. They have been eating by tyranids then the slime left turned over to nurgle which has been used as a fertiliser on nurgles garden. Leave them were they belong.

Blood Angels is a good update one knowone would have suspected making 2 uber close combat marine armies close together is a kinda smart thing gets people choosing what army to play.

Y'know come of think of it cause of geneseed BAs are even rarer than Space Elfs. GW should just make them an optional allied unit for the IG.


But why quibble? I see we do agree that the muchly feared Blood Angles should be next.

They should also put emphasis on their blood drinking tendencies...like close quarters combat moves can include a leap onto an opponent in a weakened state thus much blood drinking ensues!!!

Would that include Tyranid ichor? How about Ork fungus-syrup? Necron grease?

I think he meant that BA would suck their opponents dry, thus heal themself with any wound inflicted.

Maybe win back full strength at a ratio of 3:1 ( dead opponents : lost BA marines/wound on multiwound char.) ?

So instead of sweeping advance, BA would refill their ranks.....

I get it mechanically but was pointing out it would lead to some ridiculous situations.

I have never seen people so obviously trolled by such obvious sarcasm. I for one agree entirely with kid kyoto.

Eidolon wrote:I have never seen people so obviously trolled by such obvious sarcasm. I for one agree entirely with kid kyoto.

I totally disagree with kid kyoto.
BA desperately needs a non-jervisified codex.

Cause 40K needs yet another marine codex.

/Sarcasm off.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But I'll play... the truely essential armies. Oh and Codex Catachans of course. And Codex Tanith.

Indeed.
Codex Malak - the truly Quintessential chaos god. Esoteric *and* fashionable.
Codex Hrud - It got mentioned, it must well and truly deserve a codex.

I'll conceed that your codex order is correct, and the truth once all codices are retconned to match CS Goto's cannon.

Oldgrue wrote:Codex Malak - the truly Quintessential chaos god. Esoteric *and* fashionable.

"Malak"? *Who's that*?

OTOH, Codex: Malal, the renegade Chaos God, would be cool...

JHDD, always there for the typo!

Still waiting for CS Goto's multilasers.

Well at least everyone's forgotten Codex: Sensei:
- 1,000 = nothing
- 1,500 = nothing
- 2,000 = nothing
- 3,000 = 1 guy.... possibly....

Found this on 40konline. Not sure about its validity, but it seems the blood angles might be finally get their much deserved codex.

Next is Skaven, Tyranids, Beasts of Chaos and then Blood angles. So....Blood angles I'll expect during the summer or something. Not sure how long the gap between books normally is. If it's one months between wolves and skaven and two between Skaven and 'Nids, I'll say maybe two months between books? Putting it maybe between Mayish/Juneish? Meh...This is merely my ramblings, but Blood Angles to be the fourth next book, after wolves.He Didn't say anything after that.

I heard that starting next November, 2010, the revisions of the Ork Codex will be ready. There well be five released one every three months:
Codex Goffs
Codex Snakebites
Codex Evil Sunz
Codex Bad Moonz
Codex Blood Axes

My sources tell me that they will use similar models but have slightly different rules (e.g. the Battle Wagon in Codex: Snake Bites is reportedly only open-topped; there is no 'ard case upgrade. Similarly, I am told that Blood Axes will have a special character that alllows for one (1) unit of Kommandos to be taken as a troops choice. People are obviously sad and angry that there are no plans for a Codex Death Skullz.

olympia wrote:I heard that starting next November, 2010, the revisions of the Ork Codex will be ready. There well be five released one every three months:
Codex Goffs
Codex Snakebites
Codex Evil Sunz
Codex Bad Moonz
Codex Blood Axes

What? That would be ridiculous with separate ork codexes! Almost as unnecessary as a blood angels codex would be.