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But here's the real question we need to be asking: what rules are DA missing? What aspects of their distinctiveness are not being properly represented in the rules? Because by my reckoning they got a whole codex devoted to them and it seems that the differences between them and bog standard marines is quite miniscule - in fact any differences that do exist seem like they were invented out of thin air in a desparate attempt to disguish them in some way, in any way, and thus justify them getting their own codex. And all the while concepts with real potential are discarded so that they can be stuffed into a single book.

I second this and develop it...
In ways I agree, they need to be explored more...but I'd say the thing that sets them apart distinctly from other chapters is simply the way they go about things...inherently secretive etc...their whole attitude is different to alot of other chapters...they go about things radically differently as a result.

Also another vibe I picked up on from the posts prior to this, is that they need to be defined in regards to rules etc...I agree, but this is only really in comparison to what the new SW codex has done.

Again, I feel the new SW codex has set a bar...forthcoming codexs need to match or top this.

I only say DA because I am intrigued by them...they are not all they seem at all, certainly not boring...and alot less "on the nose" than say the SW's. Alarge proportion of their lore is a mystery and I think a new codex for them could maybe explore abit more i.e. bust their secrets open a tad more!

@Abby -- Good points regarding BA and DA. I tend to agree that differentiating them is difficult, and that it's contributed to the lukewarm DA codices and somewhat off-target BA codices. I mean, vampires with jump packs -- Woosh! Bleh! Bleh! -- isn't really a concept with depth.

I wonder if BA would be better off conceptually if they focused on them as SMs teetering on the edge of insanity. Kind of give them a sense of decay...fading heroes in baroque armor slipping into madness. Maybe with a slight touch of creepiness. Now while they might be able to bring that to life fairly easily with miniatures and fluff, I dunno what they'd do on the rules front off the top of my head. Might be a more interesting starting point, though.

@RobDA: It almost sounds like what you're after could be better explored by BL than GW. I agree, if DA got a treatment like SW we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the point is that someone else needs dex more.

Oh and Manchu....

I have to say it....

DA are secretive, SW's just can't cope with secrets and would leave thier half of the codex in a 'huff' LOL

;-) Well met though regarding the bookshelf!

RobDA wrote:In ways I agree, they need to be explored more...but I'd say the thing that sets them apart distinctly from other chapters is simply the way they go about things...inherently secretive etc...their whole attitude is different to alot of other chapters...they go about things radically differently as a result.

But are those differences something that really needs to be reflected in a whole codex-worth of rules?

RobDA wrote:Also another vibe I picked up on from the posts prior to this, is that they need to be defined in regards to rules etc...I agree, but this is only really in comparison to what the new SW codex has done.

Again, I feel the new SW codex has set a bar...forthcoming codexs need to match or top this.

SW are different in easily identifiable ways. For starters they don't have tactical squads. And their concept is simple and distinctive - space marine vikings.

I think a lot of the problem with BA and DA is that their fluff has already established them as being very close to codex, so there's not a lot of wiggle room to make them more divergent without a radical retcon. Of course back when their fluff was first developed everybody was completely codex so their minor divergence was a big deal. On the other hand you have White Scars and Iron Hands whose fluff wasn't expanded until later in the Index Astartes articles when the studio was coming up with all sorts of great ideas for distinctive variations on the space marine theme that had much more potential than the concepts that had been established for BA and DA previously. Unfortunately BA and DA came out first and thus had a larger following and got their own codices while all the newer better ideas got reined in and/or discarded.

I agree with everything that Kyoto said earlier. In case anyone cares. Except I do agree that the DE needs to be rescued from this image of latex wearing gimps with sticks they want to put in peoples woohoos. They could use a new codex.
Best lol I've had today.

I dunno....I'm not sure I associate DE with gimp-like martians.
:-)
I've read into their lore, and also short stories such as the one in 'Tales of Heresy' where they face off against the SW...and they do seem quite damn sadistic and disturbing tbh.
I think they need to be less suggestive with them and more balls out sly and brutal.
But the skeletal work is there for them. They are friggin' frig'd up!

ChristmasMarine wrote:
I fail to see any reason for your hate of DE, other than that you want 3 Inquisition codices, when its already the least played set of forces (GKs are barely even used any more, and whos ever seen a daemonhost on a table?).

Why does the Daemonhost get so much hate? Mine has ripped through many a units....

Its fun

Manchu wrote:The models need retooling. Who'd play Space Marines if they still looked like this:


Ugh.

I love the top right model. Looks like he'd never have to reload in a firefight, given the size of that ammo clip =D

olympia wrote:A great premise for a thread. But what about the Tau and Necrons? Those poor bastards deserve all the help they can get.

Phew, I thought I was going to be alone in mentioning the Necrons then(!). Not as desperate as DE, but GW could still do with bringing our rules up to 5th edition.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Unfortunately BA and DA came out first and thus had a larger following and got their own codices while all the newer better ideas got reined in and/or discarded.

I'm agreeing in principle (as to BA and DA got first dibs), but what makes you think that WS aren't okay as they are in the redoubtable SM5th?

Now there's a thought...

GK's should just get their own codex!

That'd be awesome for lore and ultimately quite marketable...providing the miniature sales warrant/justify a codex creation for standalone GK's.

well considering that The Space Marine Chapters Balance everything out you can't attack them much.

So I took a day or two off from internetting and this little thread sure grew.

After wading through 4 pages a couple of points are clear.

1 - Oddly no one is defending the Red Space Marines need for a codex, only quibbling about which 10 or more armies should come before them.

2 - My list could use some editing. Let's compress the 3 Iquisition factions into 1 codex Inquisition. My thought is there would be 4 HQ picks (Inquisitor Lord, GK Grand Master, SoB Canoness, Marine in Black) and they would unlock the units under them (GKs, =I= storm troopers, SoBs, funky alien mercs), this frees up 2 slots.

3 - Necrons should be in there, my bad omitting them.

4 - Catachans should be in there as well, like the Black Templars and Space WOlves they are much too divergent from their parent army for the rules to do right. In fact with their WS4 and 6+ sv they are MORE divergent than most marine chapters.

5 - An insignificant minority of posters do not yet grasp the awesomeness of the squats. THis is understandable, they must be the same people who made G-Force a hit film. They even go so far as to say a Squat is just a Dwarf with a Gun, while missing the fact that a Wych Eldar is just a Witch Elf with a gun.

6 - Unlike any new army, the DE have a history. Of failure. They were in the 3rd edition starter set, they were the first new army in ages, they had the first or second codex for 3rd edition and yet... No one bought them. THey sat on shelves until GW admitted defeat and recalled them. Now I don't know what Codex Squats would sell, since the Squats don't have a modern sales history. But we know how DE do in shops. THey do terribly.

7 - No one has argued against Codex Blood Angles so I must assume the Blood Angles are the most awesome idea ever.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Now I don't know what Codex Squats would sell, since the Squats don't have a modern sales history. But we know how DE do in shops. THey do terribly.

That's a bit disingenuous. It stands to reason they'd do about the same. I mean, there would be that one guy around here who'd buy the DE box. And then there'd be you buying the Squats . . . or more likely, haranguing the rest of us to buy them while you play with your dracula marines.

Manchu wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Now I don't know what Codex Squats would sell, since the Squats don't have a modern sales history. But we know how DE do in shops. THey do terribly.

That's a bit disingenuous. It stands to reason they'd do about the same. I mean, there would be that one guy around here who'd buy the DE box. And then there'd be you buying the Squats . . . or more likely, haranguing the rest of us to buy them while you play with your dracula marines.

Yeah, GW probably scr3ewed themselves with too many years os squat jokes.

But the point reminds, DE had a fair shot, more than a fair shot, a lot more than the Necs or the Tau got and they failed.

Sure maybe completely redoing the models, rules and fluff would get them to sell, but if you're doing that why not do an army without the same stench of failure about it.

Remaking the DE is like making Ishtar 2.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Sure maybe completely redoing the models, rules and fluff would get them to sell, but if you're doing that why not do an army without the same stench of failure about it.

What about the stench of Squats? (Wow, that sounds more convincing than I expected!) I hear you, though, K_K. If it would take a complete makeover of DE to make them marketable, why not take the same amount of effort and put that into creating a new race? I think we can see in this thread, however, that there;s enough residual DE love to give them a leg up over an unknown (or even worse failure, like the Squats).

Kid_Kyoto wrote:So I took a day or two off from internetting and this little thread sure grew.

WRT your latest points:

1 - Red Space Marines don't need defending - they're going to get their Codex. Eventually. Deserved or not.

2 - 3-in-1 Inquisition? Please, no. As I said above, Sisters of Battle, then Inquisition.

3 - Necrons are xenos and core Fluff, so will eventually get a Codex that straightens out their rules.

4 - Catachans / Tallarns / Tanith should be the Light Infantry version that focuses on Infiltrate, Deep Strike, Stealth, and Outflanking as an alternate to current the Cadian / Vostryan / Mordian / Valhallan Mech template!

5 - Squats don't have awesomeness in the 40k universe, but are great comedic relief. Bring them back as a Guard abhuman unit, not as a Codex. Or just play them as Orks.

6 - DE? not until I get my dollar!

7 - Blood Angles are funny, but Choas would be better - otherwise the Dark Angle player will be mad!

Lol, I wouldn't try to argue KK down from his crazy tree. He has had his responses
to many of your posts ready for years.

Seriously, I am completely unsurprised by his list. While he does try to slip some
practical reasons in there, it's clear that some things will never settle for him (such
as Dark Elfs in space)

JohnHwangDD wrote:3-in-1 Inquisition? Please, no. As I said above, Sisters of Battle, then Inquisition.

So, just to clarify, a stand-alone Sisters book (not Witch Hunters) and then a separate Inquisition book that covers all three ordos?

Yup. Codex: Sisters of Battle standalone, with the Frateris Militia restored!

Codex: Inquisition for everything left over:
- Inquisitors & Henchmen,
- Assassins (Sicarus)
- Grey Knights (Malleus)
- Deathwatch (Xenos)
- Stormies & Servitors
- basic bulk generic Inducted Marine and Guard Forces
- Allies rules for IG and Sisters armies

Trying to put 3 full Codices in one book doesn't work.

Would there really be enough for a Sisters codex? What kind of new units would we see?

How about we just make one big inquisition codex. And you have the option to go pure sisters or grey knights just based off units in the book.

If there was a big "pure" Inquisition book, it would led itself to a lot more allies options. Rather than being an army unto itself it could be a cool way to modify other armies.

I'd quite like a sisters codex actually. Of the 2 existing =][= codecii they are easily the more popular and playable as an army themselves, DH are only popular as allies.

Getting rid of the main ordo militia from the =][= books would make it a lot easier to roll them all together and balance them. You can have a base of guard and inducted marines, GK and DW are elites but taking a GK grandmaster or DW librarian moves them to troops. GK termies and DW termies stay as elites regardless. Daemonhosts, archo-flagellants, penitent engines, Inquisitors, assassins, priests, hordes of zealots and all the other colourful characters of the Imperium round out the list.

Hell you could add some arbites and rogue tarders.

You would still have the option of allying in forces but GK/DW would be elite choices under this system so the allies becomes a case of 1 or 2 squads supporting your own core HQ and troops.

I only want to preserve allies because I think every Imperial army needs to be able to take Inquisitors and Assassins for fluff reasons. Also not giving people the option to use models they own sucks and is something GW are trying not to do anymore (Chaos players, your daemons need to come back but at least you still do have rules for the models)

Its not like sisters players would notice if you stripped away all the circus units. Inquisitors and Assassins are the only decent ones for regular games and penitents and archo-flags might be fun but they suck.

A Sisters book could have

HQ - Cannoness, St Celestine, the smaller version of a cannoness, some kind of regular sister special character

Troops - Battle Sisters, Zealots - Rhinos, Repressors, Immolators

Elites - Repentia (fixed please), Celestians, a third choice (something akin to the sternguard/vanguard split would be nice splitting the celestians into a cc vet role and making a new sisters unit as a shooty vet role)

Fast Attack - Seraphim, Dominions, non-dedicated immolators and repressors

Heavy Support - Retributors, Exorcist, another battle tank of some sort

3 units per slot and 2 troops, thats better than Necrons get and with the allies rules it would actually be a lot more.

KK said: 7 - No one has argued against Codex Blood Angles so I must assume the Blood Angles are the most awesome idea ever.

It is.. I want to make them when the new BA dex comes out..

DA is a test codex for flagship army.. thats its purpose now, being 1st is only good in a race..

combatmedic wrote:

ChristmasMarine wrote:
I fail to see any reason for your hate of DE, other than that you want 3 Inquisition codices, when its already the least played set of forces (GKs are barely even used any more, and whos ever seen a daemonhost on a table?).

Why does the Daemonhost get so much hate? Mine has ripped through many a units....

Its fun

Hallelujah, a fellow believer! It doesn't always work, but when the powers come up as what you need they hit the spot.
Plus they are hands down some of the coolest 40k models. No other miniatures capture the feel of the genre better
than the lowly Daemonhost! A TORMENTED MAN WRAPPED IN CHAINS WITH A DAEMON CLAWING ITS WAY OUT OF HIM
C'mon people!

Manchu wrote:Would there really be enough for a Sisters codex? What kind of new units would we see?

There was plenty enough in 2E & 3E, so there's easily enough for 5E.

Frateris Militia would obviously return, possibly flavors of Priests / Ministorum / Ecclesiarchy.

Veterans could split into flavors, and we could see Noviates and/or Gangers.

Certainly, more Tanks and Walkers are a given.

They really need something at not just for the table. Their gear and unit fluff is pretty lame (it's not totally James Swallow's fault that Faith & Fire was unimpressive) but there's no good reason for it. To continue on Abbadabbadon's point about fleshing out fertile concepts, the Sororitas would really benefit from being something other than an appendage (albeit the definitive one) of Witch Hunters.

Plus, can you imagine plastic Sororitas? :shivers:

Manchu wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Unfortunately BA and DA came out first and thus had a larger following and got their own codices while all the newer better ideas got reined in and/or discarded.

I'm agreeing in principle (as to BA and DA got first dibs), but what makes you think that WS aren't okay as they are in the redoubtable SM5th?

I'm not saying WS aren't ok in C:SM. I'm just saying that BA and DA would be even more ok than WS if they were in there too. And conversely, I'm not saying that BA and DA aren't ok getting their own codices. Only that WS would be even more ok than BA and DA if they got their own codex. Ok?

But that's only from a rules perspective. From a fluff perspective WS (and IH) are absolutely not ok in C:SM. The Index Astartes articles had some really nice fluff for them. WS had no dreadnoughts and they fielded attack bike squadrons instead of devastator squads. They were organized into "brotherhoods" each led by a "khan" rather than companies led by captains. Then the SM codex comes out and we have Korsarro Khan, whose title is "captain of the 3rd company" (evidently "Khan" is just his last name or something). And even worse, there is all this fluff talking up how really really closely WS follow the codex and how they really really want to be as much like Ultramarines as they possibly can. And now it seems like every time there's a fluff mention of IH it's always something to do with their chapter master and terminator squads (neither of which they were supposed to have).

Total retcon. And why? Because a decision was made that you're only "divergent" if you get your own codex and everybody in C:SM has to be less divergent (read: Ultramarine clones) from now on. Now it's one thing for an army that is divergent in the fluff to have to make do with using the vanilla list. It's another thing to have your army's background retconned to make them vanilla in the fluff. And for what? To make BA and DA more "special"? Now I could care less if someone else's army gets their own codex as long as it doesn't affect my army. But when they start screwing with my army's background as a result? Why should the decision to give someone else a codex mean that they need to gak in my corn flakes? If BA and DA need to get their own codices because they are popular then fine. But the studio really needs get off this whole idea that everybody else needs to be less divergent than them because they really aren't that divergent.

I mean what's next? Oh didn't you know? Chaos cults are like super rare, but daemonic incursions happen like almost every day! Dark apostles? Warsmiths? What are those? Their iz only choas lordz cuz tehy iz warbanz hurr!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:6 - Unlike any new army, the DE have a history. Of failure. They were in the 3rd edition starter set, they were the first new army in ages, they had the first or second codex for 3rd edition and yet... No one bought them. THey sat on shelves until GW admitted defeat and recalled them. Now I don't know what Codex Squats would sell, since the Squats don't have a modern sales history. But we know how DE do in shops. THey do terribly.

Ironically, to this day, I know far more DE players than SOB players, but you want SOB's to be redone. In the last five years since I moved to Atlanta, I personally know exactly two people who play SOBs, with a third who just started an army as part of an escalation league. I can count on one hand the number of SOB players I have seen at tournaments during that time.

Now, I'm NOT saying SOBs are bad; just that they are not incredibly popular, either.

As to why DE never caught on, the major reason is the horrible model range. None of the HQ models were particularly interesting (most are terrible), except for some of the Incubi models. In the elites section, only a couple of the wych models are any good. All the warrior models suck. The jetbikes aren't bad, but the hellion models should all be scrapped. Scourges are terrible, and the Talos is ok. The Raider and Ravager models were always pretty bad, too.

Couple that to the fact that, between 1998 and 2007 (the army's first decade), the sum total of GW's support for Dark Eldar consists of the introductory battle report in WD, a second battle report in WD featuring another army, and a three page (actually, three half pages, due to artwork) article in WD that was later consolidated in the the "second edition" DE codex.

Even orks, who had an even older codex, were featured more by GW during that same time. They had significant parts in the Vogen campaign, the Eye of Terror event, and Armageddon. They were also featured many times in WD. I don't mind this, of course, as orks were an original core army.

The point is that people tend to not buy what isn't marketed.

Seriously; someone must've really handed you your butt early in your playing career with a DE army for you to have so much hatred towards them.....

Edit for PS:

By the way, I actually owned a squat army back around 1990. The exo-armor squats that looked like weeble-wobbles, the exo-armored squats on attack trikes, units of squats with every member upgraded to a heavy bolter with a targeter and suspensor, heavy weapon attack trikes that looked like little, fat Hell's Angels with a las cannon attacked to the bitch-seat. This is one of the reasons that I would be really annoyed if GW did away with DE; they've already done that once to an army I spent a lot of money on.