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The Dark Elves were the joke of fantasy for years up until recently. It could be the same with Dark Eldar. Of course, we'll never know until the rumored Jes Goodwin blessed models hit the pre-order page.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Cryonic: Didn't the Fall prove that already, manyfold over?

Hm, from whence dost thou think DE originated?

If the Dark Eldar were Chaos Eldar, that would be pretty cool, and would match with what most players expected and wanted prior to their release.

But they're not.

I know you're trying to let me down gently here, John, but please extrapolate. I thought the DE were the Eldar who (a) hadn't left prior to the Fall (craftworlders, exodites) and (b) weren't instantly killed/driven insane by the birth of Slaanesh or soul-leached by him shortly thereafter.

Chaos Eldar would be Eldar on Crone Worlds, backed by Actual Chaos Daemons. MoS by default, with Chaos powers, Daemonic Gifts and so forth.

The analogy would be CSM to SM. Or at least Emperor's Children to SM.

Dark Eldar are something else. Sort of. There are Slaaneshi elements, but they're not at the fore, kinda watered down. And then there's the Hellraiser stuff. A cheesy, bad horror movie parody, rather than something scary.

But DE are the survivors of the fall, right? (I seriously don't know their fluff/am not trying to be an argumentative ass.)

Not really. The DE are in the Webway. Crone Worlds (pre-Fall Eldar worlds) are necessarily in the very heart of the Eye of Terror.

Okay, I'm baffled. I get that DE escaped Slaanesh into the webway but I thought they were (along with the current inhabitants of the Crone Worlds) the protagonists of the Fall.

The Fluff isn't entirely clear on the last point, whether they were part of the Fall, like the Eldar of the Crone worlds. It could be merely a question of degree & proximity.

Unlike Craftworlds & Exodites, the origin of the Dark Eldar has never really been especially well-defined.

Well, their codex is pretty skimpy at 48 pages (esp considering SW 5th weighs in at 96). I don't see how Kid Kyoto can not want to see them redone. Well, other than that he thinks they should be erased from 40k.

Manchu wrote:Okay, I'm baffled. I get that DE escaped Slaanesh into the webway but I thought they were (along with the current inhabitants of the Crone Worlds) the protagonists of the Fall.

DE are the Eldar who just happened to be in transit in the Webway when the Fall happened. Like coming back from vacation, going to a doctors appointment, stuff like that.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:The present situation with the trilogy unfinished feels slightly wrong but the xenos book just sits there emanating an enormous pile of problems like a rotting elephant carcass everyone is ignoring.

The whole =][= trilogy thing was just a ploy by Andy Chambers to keep the bean counters from squating the SoB. Seriously. He knew the only way to convince them to let him update the SoB was to pitch it as part of an =][= line which included GK. So Chambers saved the SoB and the bean counters got their space marines. Clever guy that Chambers. They should give him a raise.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I say no too squats because the fluff was poorly developed, the name is awful and their aesthetic trips all over territory the space wolves already have (can't so slayers when the SW have lone wolves).

That's because the SW stole the squats' nordic aesthetic. Sort of like how SM stole Chaos' +2 power weapons. But worse.


Now I shall talk about Chaos as I am wont to do. I don't think they should do a Codex: Chaos Legions. In fact I think they should scrap Codex: Chaos Space Marines and just do a Codex: Chaos. They should make a mutant/cultist box set and include them as a Troops choice. TS, DG, WE, and EC should get their cult terminators and lords and havocs and stuff back. You don't need separate entries for noise marines and berzerkers and plague marines. All you need is an option in the unit entry to upgrade the unit to the appropriate legion. SW get Sagas - why can't my Chaos lord take the Saga of the Death Guard (+1T, -1I, FNP, Defensive Grenades)? That's not too complicated is it?

And they need to get rid of this choas renegaed warbanz hurr! nonsense and go back to the focus on legions. The CSM list is essentially a legions list - hence all the pre-heresy equipment. Why is it that when a chapter turns renegade they immediately ditch all their razorbacks and whirlwinds, confiscate all their 1st company's storm bolters and swap them for combi-bolters of an archaic design that they've never used before, and replace all the power packs on their power armour with the extended vent design? Ideally renegade chapters should have a mix of the loyalist equipment that they possessed before going renegade and replacement equipment they've acquired since then (which could include equipment of archaic design obtained from Chaos forgeworlds in the EoT and whatnot). The proportion would depend on the chapter. Renegade chapters should be somewhere in-between Chaos legions and Ultramarines. Now here's a design concept which I think should go without saying but evidently someone in the studio forgot when they made the latest Chaos codex - YOU DON'T DESIGN LISTS BASED ON IN-BETWEEN ARMIES. You design them around the archetypal extremes and let players who want to play an in-between army choose which list better represents what they want. So for example, if you want to make a renegade chapter then you get to choose between the loyalist list (for a recently turned chapter) and the legion-based list (for a chapter that has been Chaos for awhile).


And this brings me to my next point. Do you know who deserves a codex before Blood Angels? White Scars. Yes, White Scars. Now I'm not saying that White Scars deserve a codex before Necrons or Tau or =][= or Adeptus Mechanicus or Hrud or Exodites, but they deserve one before BA. Why? Because "crazy mongol biker space marines" is a much stronger design concept than "sort of vampirey sort of assaulty space marines with a sort of Italian Renaissance aesthetic". In fact "callous cyborg space marines" is a stronger design concept too so Iron Hands should get a codex before BA.

I think it all comes down to the fact that GW have really painted themselves into a corner with the BA and DA. In the fluff BA and DA have always been essentially codex chapters with some slight divergences, which is just fine IMHO, but since they MUST have their own codices and everybody else MUST be rolled into Codex: Ultramarines we're left with a problem - BA and DA essentially place an upper limit on how divergent everyone else can be (SW and BT excepted). So what do you get? You get designers wracking their brains trying to think of ways to retcon BA and DA to make them divergent enough to justify their own full codices while concepts with much more potential for interesting divergence never get explored (thus the retconning of WS and IH to make them essentially Ultramarines with variant color schemes). I mean we have the chapter of Black Space Marines Who Wear Tabards And Are Medieval Knights and the chapter of Space Marines Who Wear Robes (Which Are Different Than Tabards) And Are Also Medieval Knights (But In A More Monastic Sort Of Way Than The Black Space Marines Who Are Medieval Knights) And Also They Are Green But Some Of Them Are Black But Only If They Are On Bikes (Unlike The Black Space Marines Who Are All Black) And Their Terminators Are White Too. Great work guys - obviously both of these very distinct and unique design concepts need to be explored fully in separate codices.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Chaos Eldar would be Eldar on Crone Worlds, backed by Actual Chaos Daemons. MoS by default, with Chaos powers, Daemonic Gifts and so forth.

The analogy would be CSM to SM. Or at least Emperor's Children to SM.

Dark Eldar are something else. Sort of. There are Slaaneshi elements, but they're not at the fore, kinda watered down. And then there's the Hellraiser stuff. A cheesy, bad horror movie parody, rather than something scary.

Actually, I wouldn't have any problem with DE turning into "Chaos Eldar."

The fluff isn't what attracted me to playing DE when I got back into 40K about 8 years ago. Frankly, I don't read any of the fluff, anyway; I'm barely interested in any of the GW fluff.

I liked DE for the play style and for the fact that there aren't many DE players out there.

If the supposed new codex kept them fast & fragile with a hard punch, but turned them into Slaneesh worshiping Chaos types, that'd be fine with me.

sorry to say, i dout the Squats will ever be back with their own Codex. same as we will never see an army book from the east of the warhammer world, there just isnt any intrest from the GW management side of things to do it.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:DE are the Eldar who just happened to be in transit in the Webway when the Fall happened.

I don't think they should do a Codex: Chaos Legions. In fact I think they should scrap Codex: Chaos Space Marines and just do a Codex: Chaos.

And this brings me to my next point. Do you know who deserves a codex before Blood Angels? White Scars. Yes, White Scars.

In the fluff BA and DA have always been essentially codex chapters with some slight divergences,

OK, I can see the Dark Eldar as guys "who happened to be in transit in the Webway". However, in a universe based on active Fluff, a passive "accidental" or happenstance background story is rather uninspiring:
- "I was on my way to get some groceries.
- "I needed more toilet paper."
- "I wanted to visit my cousin."
- "I was bored and just decided to go for a long walk."
I mean, WTF?

Like how GW has taken a step back in WFB, now that they've got people paying for up to 3 Army Books of Chaos? Or how GW has gotten Daemons paying its way as a separate army? Or even how WFB undead got split into wet & dry? To say nothing of how SM got split into sub-flavors for vikings, monks, vampire, knights, and spiky. That ship has sailed. Several Chaos books won't be a bad thing, as GW will have the space to flesh them out a bit.

You think we really need a THIRD Biker Marine book after Ravenwing and SM Captain on Bike? Really? Jump Packs aren't more interesting with 3 Editions of Fluff behind them? Really?

Fluff-wise, there is no reason for another SM codex--especially not for the WS who were in favor of Codex Astartes from the beginning! SM 5th has all the options you need (just add personal creativity) to more than adequately field WS. That said, I can see DA and BA being someone's pet personal project at GW. I especially think that's plausible for the pdf-wielding BAs who are now mysteriously fighting the nids in SH 3rd instead of DA. They also just got a crappy little book to round off their series of crappy little books. Forget Codex: WS (what's next, Codex: IF?) and give someone else a turn. Codex: Thousand Sons would be far more valuable to everyone, for example.


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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:DE are the Eldar who just happened to be in transit in the Webway when the Fall happened. Like coming back from vacation, going to a doctors appointment, stuff like that.

Oh, and that's the worst fluff I've ever heard. Poor DE, if that is the case.

Manchu wrote: Forget Codex: WS (what's next, Codex: IF?) and give someone else a turn. Codex: Thousand Sons would be far more valuable to everyone, for example.

C: TS ?

Some psykers and their buddies "walking set of armor without anything inside" shouldnt need more than one page as rules.

Maybe deserving a codex is always subjective.

Would i like to see a codex for every possible force of 40k? Yes. Would they all got jervisified to keep GW's costs down? That too.

Do i want to pay for "copy-paste"? Not really.

So lets have DE beeing released "next year" until 3000AD.

The BA need to return to printed codex. Cant see why GW can not go back to "angels of death" = DA+BA combi-dex.
DA dex isnt so well done and BA need a new one. Problem solved.

1hadhq wrote:The BA need to return to printed codex. Cant see why GW can not go back to "angels of death" = DA+BA combi-dex.
DA dex isnt so well done and BA need a new one. Problem solved.

Despite your foolhardy appraisal of the Thousand Sons, I agree with the revival of an Angels of Death dex. (a.k.a, Angels of Emo)

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Manchu wrote:Where are the Dark Eldar on this list? I'm so lost.

??? I don't understand the question.

WHy would Dark Eldar be on a list of armies that deserve a codex?

Perhaps you're thinking of my list of armies best forgotten and never mentioned again.

So the idiotic biker dorfs in space deserve a codex but dark eldar do not? You lost all credibility. Alien hunters don't need a codex. They can use marine rules. Why do they need a codex? Bolters can't kill aliens? Squats don't need a codex, the idea was terrible and GW knows it. Chaos Legions don't need a codex, the chaos space marine codex covers them just fine. The only armies that need codexes on your list are Daemonhunters. Oh wait, i should have said army. GW needs to update codexes rather than create new armies. Necrons should be on your list but are not. Terrible list.

See K_K, messing with DE is a hornets' nest.

Manchu wrote:Forget Codex: WS (what's next, Codex: IF?) and give someone else a turn. Codex: Thousand Sons would be far more valuable to everyone, for example.

Yes, Codex: Thousand Sons would be a better codex than Codex: WS. Just like Codex: WS would be a better codex than Codex: BA (I would have said Codex: DA but I produce better results than Codex: DA everytime I make BM).

JohnHwangDD wrote:OK, I can see the Dark Eldar as guys "who happened to be in transit in the Webway". However, in a universe based on active Fluff, a passive "accidental" or happenstance background story is as totally awesome as the urban legend that Marilyn Manson is actually the actor who played Kevin on the television show Mr. Belvedere.

Fixed it.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Yes, Codex: Thousand Sons would be a better codex than Codex: WS. Just like Codex: WS would be a better codex than Codex: BA (I would have said Codex: DA but I produce better results than Codex: DA everytime I make BM).

Point taken, but the problem is that BA are Codex variant in the fluff whereas WS are not. You have no argument from a SW that DA suck.

Hmmmm...

I'm not convinced a First Founding Chapter/Legion should get the codex....

Maybe pull everyones pants down and give Cypher & the Fallen their own Codex...then finally we'll see just exactly what that awesome chap of an astartes has been getting up to since the fall of caliban.

On the flipside of that....I think it's a high time a strong successor chapter got a codex...like Flesh Tearers or Blood Drinkers instead of doing just a BA codex.

I can't help but think how well a SW/DA codex would have gone down, their combined exploits are legendary and the book would be almost as thick as the tome of rules itself!

For the Emperor!

Manchu wrote: I especially think that's plausible for the pdf-wielding BAs who are now mysteriously fighting the nids in SH 3rd instead of DA.

"Mysteriously"? You mean like in the classic Sega Saturn game ?

Or "mysterious" like the original Space Hulk, before the Deathwing expansion for DA?

Please clarify.
____

RobDA wrote:Maybe pull everyones pants down and give Cypher & the Fallen their own Codex...

I think it's a high time a strong successor chapter got a codex...like Flesh Tearers or Blood Drinkers instead of doing just a BA codex.

Codex: Fallen Angels would not be the worst thing, as the Fallen had actual rules in 2E & 3E to build off, along with Cypher.

How about Black Templars? They're a successor chapter.

RobDA wrote:I can't help but think how well a SW/DA codex would have gone down, their combined exploits are legendary and the book would be almost as thick as the tome of rules itself!

I'm sorry, but the very thought of such a travesty makes my stomach churn. Such a book would tear itself apart. The SW half would eventually throw the DA half off of your bookshelf.

Manchu wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Yes, Codex: Thousand Sons would be a better codex than Codex: WS. Just like Codex: WS would be a better codex than Codex: BA (I would have said Codex: DA but I produce better results than Codex: DA everytime I make BM).

Point taken, but the problem is that BA are Codex variant in the fluff whereas WS are not.

Fluff is malleable. They'll retcon the fluff to whatever it needs to be in order to justify BA getting their own codex and WS getting stuffed in Codex: Ultramarines. My point is that BA and are not as strong a concept from a design standpoint as WS. Which concept has more potential for divergence? Space marine mongols on bikes? Or space marines with psychological problems. IMHO one has obvious potential for clear divergence that could be easily reflected both in the models and on the tabletop, and the other... not so much.

And DA are even worse. Space marines in robes with others who ride bikes but are painted a different color for some reason and their terminators are a different color too. Visually they are distinctive (as long as you ignore BT) but how is a marine in a robe any different than a marine without one? DA get an entire separate codex and essentially the main difference between them and Ultramarines is that their terminators and bikers are fearless (a feature that's not even reflected on the models). That's the best the studio could come up with. How divergent is that, really? They really needed a separate codex for that? Really?

But here's the real question we need to be asking: what rules are DA missing? What aspects of their distinctiveness are not being properly represented in the rules? Because by my reckoning they got a whole codex devoted to them and it seems that the differences between them and bog standard marines is quite miniscule - in fact any differences that do exist seem like they were invented out of thin air in a desparate attempt to disguish them in some way, in any way, and thus justify them getting their own codex. And all the while concepts with real potential are discarded so that they can be stuffed into a single book.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Please clarify.

Fair enough. Shows what I know.


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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:And all the while concepts with real potential are discarded so that they can be stuffed into a single book.

I already agreed that BA and DA seemed like personal scores for some GW employee. I don't think that they deserve their own codices. I'm just saying why they'll get them and WS will not.

It's OK, I'm just teasing you.

Besides, you'd have gotten the same points from any other old-timer.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:DE are the Eldar who just happened to be in transit in the Webway when the Fall happened.

I don't think they should do a Codex: Chaos Legions. In fact I think they should scrap Codex: Chaos Space Marines and just do a Codex: Chaos.

And this brings me to my next point. Do you know who deserves a codex before Blood Angels? White Scars. Yes, White Scars.

In the fluff BA and DA have always been essentially codex chapters with some slight divergences,

OK, I can see the Dark Eldar as guys "who happened to be in transit in the Webway". However, in a universe based on active Fluff, a passive "accidental" or happenstance background story is rather uninspiring:
- "I was on my way to get some groceries.
- "I needed more toilet paper."
- "I wanted to visit my cousin."
- "I was bored and just decided to go for a long walk."
I mean, WTF?

Like how GW has taken a step back in WFB, now that they've got people paying for up to 3 Army Books of Chaos? Or how GW has gotten Daemons paying its way as a separate army? Or even how WFB undead got split into wet & dry? To say nothing of how SM got split into sub-flavors for vikings, monks, vampire, knights, and spiky. That ship has sailed. Several Chaos books won't be a bad thing, as GW will have the space to flesh them out a bit.

You think we really need a THIRD Biker Marine book after Ravenwing and SM Captain on Bike? Really? Jump Packs aren't more interesting with 3 Editions of Fluff behind them? Really?

Personally, I like variety. As long as they keep them interesting with sufficient distinction, they could come out with a codex for any army you could imagine, and I'd be fine with that.

I really wish they wouldn't discontinue armies, too. It doesn't take that much effort to get people interested in an army, if you pay some sort of attention to them.

Unfortunately, I think too many people at GW are too busy sampling their bong water to put in the work to keep people interested beyond the initial release of a new codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

RobDA wrote:Maybe pull everyones pants down and give Cypher & the Fallen their own Codex...

I think it's a high time a strong successor chapter got a codex...like Flesh Tearers or Blood Drinkers instead of doing just a BA codex.

Codex: Fallen Angels would not be the worst thing, as the Fallen had actual rules in 2E & 3E to build off, along with Cypher.

How about Black Templars? They're a successor chapter.

Hey, I still own that old 2nd Ed combined DA/BA codex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:It's OK, I'm just teasing you.

I post to learn, great one.

Saldiven wrote:It doesn't take that much effort to get people interested in an army, if you pay some sort of attention to them.

Which brings us back to getting out a new DE codex, since publishing a new dex the only way GW has come up with to keep people interested in an army.

No love for a new Catachan codex?!