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snowman40k wrote:
ie, take Belial to unlock DW troops (already done)
Sammael for RW bike troops
Azrael for DA standard.

So basically the army exactly as it is now, but you need to take Azrael to take a standard army? Belial for DW and Sammael for RW is already in place and it doesn't need any changing.

English Assassin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Inform someone who isn't a DA fluff nut. What makes Deathwing terminators better than the terms of any other chapter?

Originally, nothing more than a distinctive name and more fluff. I don't recall them ever having had extra-special rules, however.

They're fearless and get a drop pod assault-style special rule IIRC.

"will wield Dark Plasma Claws, Secret Plasma Fists and Uncomfortable Feelings in the Showers Plasma Cannons"


Lol - im sorry - im a hardened DA nut and have been way before I played the game but this brought me out of lurking in laughter.

For my part, I really hope we lean away from the plasma as its not just particularly creative in my view. Nor are 'special' tanks.

They need to go way outside the box imo.

What of the watchers in the dark? What a wasted mythology thus far. The broken sword, the cleaved heart of Caliban - its heavy stuff man! Targetting familiars whispering in the ears of inner circle sergeatns for example! DARKER AND MORE GOTHIC PLEASE GW!

Make the hunt for the fallen relevant. The knifes edge, what it means to be borderline fanaticism?

Talk about DA recruitment including plains people and the diversity of its recruiting worlds; a necessary consequence of having no homeworld to speak of - They are a fragmented chapter and they find their cohesion as a secret legion for example! A good way to tie together the successors?

Overall a thread of More Chaplains ties up well established and not so well written DA fluff i.e The circles within circles - plain unclear - not intentiaonally ambiguos. And, who actually make up the Deathwing with a big D. I'm not jsut talking about Terminators...

Kanluwen wrote:As for "something new", we can bring back the Ironwing(a Dark Angels formation consisting of Predators and Land Raiders, with Razorback mounted troops). We can bring in some unique weaponry for the Deathwing to have for their Terminators, such as Plasma Cannons or some kind of archaic weaponry.

Thanks for that, Kan - I was starting to think I had hallucinated the whole concept of the Ironwing (which I believe I read about in a first edition epic rulebook... God, that makes me feel old )

What I would like is a meaningful way of incorporating the three 'wings' into a single army - the tactical precepts were written something along the lines of 'Find your enemies weaknesses (Ravenwing), test their resolve (Ironwing) and then make a killing blow (Deathwing). Although its almost certainly a misquote I always thought the concept was cool and built my 2nd edition epic army around this whole idea.

Then again, if GW did do that it would bring me out of my self-imposed ban on buying new armies...

Easiest way of incorporating the three wings into a single army is to make Azrael able to do so.

Why do you assume DA Chaplains would be 100 points in the new dex? If they are like Sanguinary Priests and Wolf Guard they will be much, much cheaper.

You are right, I shouldnt.
Just that my take on GW and balanced unit costs is less then non existent. After all whats the point taking jumppack vanguards or legion of the damned when they are so overpriced you are basically handling the victory to the opponent by taking them. Thats what you get for having such a "quality" playtesting team.

The chaplain is laughable at its current 100p. They should be around 40-50p a piece with the crap rules and crap wargear they bring. (captains and masters are overpriced as well but that is of topic)

Pyriel, a "character" Chaplain at 100 points is not the same as a Chaplain who would be assigned to a unit.

Pyriel- wrote:

Why do you assume DA Chaplains would be 100 points in the new dex? If they are like Sanguinary Priests and Wolf Guard they will be much, much cheaper.

You are right, I shouldnt.
Just that my take on GW and balanced unit costs is less then non existent. After all whats the point taking jumppack vanguards or legion of the damned when they are so overpriced you are basically handling the victory to the opponent by taking them. Thats what you get for having such a "quality" playtesting team.

The chaplain is laughable at its current 100p. They should be around 40-50p a piece with the crap rules and crap wargear they bring. (captains and masters are overpriced as well but that is of topic)

In fairness the basic marine codex has probably the worst internal balance of any fifth edition codex. The worst of any fourth too. It's abominable.

Kanluwen wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Inform someone who isn't a DA fluff nut. What makes Deathwing terminators better than the terms of any other chapter?

Originally, nothing more than a distinctive name and more fluff. I don't recall them ever having had extra-special rules, however.

Then you don't remember much.

Dark Angels were the only force able to field an all-Terminators force until the current Space Wolves/Grey Knights book.

I'd be more careful when insulting other people's recollections, since you'll find in fact that all Space Marine players could do that in first and second editions.

Kanluwen wrote:The Deathwing Terminators had Stubborn as their "big deal" trait. A Deathwing force could also have Techmarines, Apothecaries, and Standard Bearers all in Terminator armor.

All of which, aside from Stubborn, were previously available to all Space Marines.

Kanluwen wrote:

English Assassin wrote:I would venture that people are groping around to find something to differentiate the Dark Angels, who are essentially Codex Marines with robes, sufficiently on the tabletop to justify a separate Codex of their own.

Not really. There's plenty which differentiated Dark Angels from the Codex Marines, it's just colored by the fact that the Dark Angels book seemingly (again) served as a test bed for ideas. The majority of things which made the army unique(the ability to field an all-Terminator or biker force, for example) was given out to the other Marine codices. For feth's sake, the Mortis pattern Dreadnought was even given away to almost every Marine book except for Dark Angels--who are the only ones who can use it per IA2.

All-bike armies were likewise available to all Space Marine armies prior to third edition; why should they be available to the Dark Angels, and not to, say, the White Scars? Why, given that the Space Wolves can presently field one, should the option of an all-Terminator army be exclusive to the Dark Angels?

Kanluwen wrote:

Sadly, this is probably just what the studio will do, so look forward to Robed Predators, Secret Guard and Closeted Marines, all of whom will have WS5, and will wield Dark Plasma Claws, Secret Plasma Fists and Uncomfortable Feelings in the Showers Plasma Cannons.

Oh look. Clever implications of sexual orientations on the Dark Angels. How novel!

As others seem to have been able to appreciate, I was making fun of the disparity between the Dark Angels' fluff and their army on the tabletop, and of GW's recent trends in nomenclature. Don't let that stop you from getting needlessly abrasive, however.

I would hope that the codex simply has bikers and terminators as troop choices and don't need to take a special character to do it. If they want to then make an elite version of terminators and an elite jetbike squad which could then be taken as troops if you take belial or sammael so be it. But I am getting sick of how large a role special characters play in this game now.

Dark Eldar are the only book that the normal HQ options are truly a legitimate option and only then because their special characters are horrendously overcosted with the exception of like 2 of them.

Would be nice to see a Captain, Librarian, or Chaplain lead an army for a change.

But deathwing and ravenwing can be relevant in their base Elite or Fast Attack slots IF some of the standard marines made sense to play. For example say 1 ravenwing bike squad and 1 terminator squads... The ravenwing scouts ahead and deploys one deathwing squad - as part of DW deployment special rules - The rest of the army could be conventional power armor marines in rhinos and razorbacks.

The purpose of sammiel and belial is to allow them to be taken as troops and to allow the banner and command squad.

ShumaGorath wrote:
In fairness the basic marine codex has probably the worst internal balance of any fifth edition codex. The worst of any fourth too. It's abominable.

If you think the basic Marine codex has the worst internal balance of any codex, then I'm really curious what you think of both the Tyranid and Imperial Guard codices in regards to internal balance.

English Assassin wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Inform someone who isn't a DA fluff nut. What makes Deathwing terminators better than the terms of any other chapter?

Originally, nothing more than a distinctive name and more fluff. I don't recall them ever having had extra-special rules, however.

Then you don't remember much.

Dark Angels were the only force able to field an all-Terminators force until the current Space Wolves/Grey Knights book.

I'd be more careful when insulting other people's recollections, since you'll find in fact that all Space Marine players could do that in first and second editions.

Oh, so we're using first and second edition as proof that "Deathwing had nothing more than a distinctive name and more fluff"?

Well in that case, Leman Russ was nothing more than a human general and Sisters of Battle were Marine Cops.
Deathwing is where the all-Terminator force was for years. It's where it belongs, but then it was handed out like candy.

Kanluwen wrote:The Deathwing Terminators had Stubborn as their "big deal" trait. A Deathwing force could also have Techmarines, Apothecaries, and Standard Bearers all in Terminator armor.

All of which, aside from Stubborn, were previously available to all Space Marines.

So what you're saying is that all Space Marines could take the retinue(which is certainly true, but is no longer). The only thing they could not take wasthe defining trait of the Deathwing.

Kanluwen wrote:

English Assassin wrote:I would venture that people are groping around to find something to differentiate the Dark Angels, who are essentially Codex Marines with robes, sufficiently on the tabletop to justify a separate Codex of their own.

Not really. There's plenty which differentiated Dark Angels from the Codex Marines, it's just colored by the fact that the Dark Angels book seemingly (again) served as a test bed for ideas. The majority of things which made the army unique(the ability to field an all-Terminator or biker force, for example) was given out to the other Marine codices. For feth's sake, the Mortis pattern Dreadnought was even given away to almost every Marine book except for Dark Angels--who are the only ones who can use it per IA2.

All-bike armies were likewise available to all Space Marine armies prior to third edition; why should they be available to the Dark Angels, and not to, say, the White Scars? Why, given that the Space Wolves can presently field one, should the option of an all-Terminator army be exclusive to the Dark Angels?

Now you see, you're reading something which isn't there.

Your statement is that people are "groping around to find something to differentiate the Dark Angels, who are essentially Codex Marines with robes, sufficiently on the tabletop to justify a separate Codex of their own". They had things which justified a "separate Codex of their own" in the form of the Ravenwing and Deathwing. While the Ravenwing wasn't necessarily unique, it did have some pieces which were unique.

My entire point was that the Dark Angels book HAS been unique. No attempt was made to expand or flesh out the Dark Angels from their 3rd edition mini-Codex to their full fledged Codex. Space Wolves and Blood Angels and Black Templars, however, all had something done to the army which made them work out as a "unique" force. They also did not have the majority of the flavor of the army snaked out from under them and handed out to everyone else.

Kanluwen wrote:

Sadly, this is probably just what the studio will do, so look forward to Robed Predators, Secret Guard and Closeted Marines, all of whom will have WS5, and will wield Dark Plasma Claws, Secret Plasma Fists and Uncomfortable Feelings in the Showers Plasma Cannons.

Oh look. Clever implications of sexual orientations on the Dark Angels. How novel!

As others seem to have been able to appreciate, I was making fun of the disparity between the Dark Angels' fluff and their army on the tabletop, and of GW's recent trends in nomenclature. Don't let that stop you from getting needlessly abrasive, however.

Maybe you should try actually making jokes which are funny then?

Your idea of "making fun" is the same crap regurgitated over the years about the Dark Angels. So kindly cut the comedy routine and stay on topic.

Platuan4th wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Doubtful, Caliban has been nothing but floating hunks of rock since the end of the Heresy.

Kan, he was talking about a possible name for the Plasma-pred, like the BAAL Predator.

Knowing the Dark Angels, they would probably want to avoid another reminder of their "failure".

Anyway, I wouldn't really argue with Kan about Dark Angels. They are his super favorite Chapter, and he refuses to listen to anything remotely negative about them regardless of what may be written where. Which is his prerogative, I suppose.

For what it's worth, I would think Ravenwing is their main claim to uniqueness, and perhaps a predilection for plasma weaponry. Deathwing has always been just terminators that painted their armor differently, which many Chapters/Legions had a tradition of doing. I never bought the whole Stubborn thing. Were the Ultramarines' 1st company terminators any less stubborn when they fought on to the last man? Were the Night Lords' Atramentar any less stubborn when they went down with the Covenant? Meh. All Space Marines are stubborn dicks. That's kind of what they do.

Well, the Deathwing began with the mythology of I think it was a half dozen terminators, the captain and a librarian exterminating a world worth of genestealers. Later got changed to a single squad.
They always had the stubborn thing going for them, and have continued in the trend with fearless. Though not allowing other captains terminator armour was more than a bit annoying in later editions.
Expanding the Deathwing armoury a bit would be nice, and perhaps doing something about them being veteran sergeants to extand stubborn to PA squads. A full blown assault force with their armour having teleport homers for other squads to home onto along with scouts and ravenwing woulf increase the flexability.
To differentiate the Ravenwing bring back that jink save and attack bike squads. To have a Ravenwing army have it become only Ravenwing units may be taken with bikes squadrons as troops, landspeer squadrons fast attack, attack bikes as heavy or similar for example. Such a unique force needs a unique FoC to make them different to the "normal" marine counterparts.
The overall choices also needs the shuffling around as the elite slots are currently stupidly full and troops having just one choice...
Not really bothered much with 40k overall, and totally ignored most codices after the vanilla marine one arrived and made DA codex pointless, but know how different and unique the other chapters were made, the DA need that and while it won't affect the troop choice in a regular mix of DA army, it should be reflected in the parts which the chapter is famed for.
Even if they drew on the knightly order thing and went a bit BT with them it'd give them something. Or did I just jinx it and DA will be the testing codex for BT and vanilla marines? Wonder if GW will replace my green marines with other coloured ones if so...

Deathwing was that the whole first company was made up of entirely terminators. No other chapter has this. It doesn't account to much outside the fluff of course, but it's still why people consider all terminator armies to be a Dark Angels only thing.

Brother SRM wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
In fairness the basic marine codex has probably the worst internal balance of any fifth edition codex. The worst of any fourth too. It's abominable.

If you think the basic Marine codex has the worst internal balance of any codex, then I'm really curious what you think of both the Tyranid and Imperial Guard codices in regards to internal balance.

There's a distinct difference between internal and external balance. Bad internal balance is exemplified by the fact that two thirds of the choices in the space marine book are "The same as th/ss terms but worse". The fact that a 10 man lascanon dev squad and 2 5 man stern squads with lascanons are the same price is indicative of some pretty heavy drug use. That a storm bolter was 10 points is Linsane. There are two heavy flamers in the codex. One is five points the other is 35. Both are on infantry models. Nearly every special character HQ choice is 30+ points less than a same equipped generic choice. The entire book is miscosted against itself, ignoring exterior balance (which is also bad).

Neither the nid or IG books hold a candle to the basic mathematical errors in C:SM in regards to costing when compared to itself.

Kanluwen wrote:Maybe you should try actually making jokes which are funny then?

Your idea of "making fun" is the same crap regurgitated over the years about the Dark Angels. So kindly cut the comedy routine and stay on topic.

I for one thoroughly enjoyed his comments, so perhaps don't attempt to dictate which jokes may or may not be made?

The current flash to the past GW seems to be conjuring up gives me hope the Deathwing/Ravenwing will be unique again.

White Scars got relegated to the main SM dex with a character unlock. I can only hope that DA got left out of that book so they would become unique again.

BA/SW both got new characters, rides, vehicles, etc.

No one ever understood "Stubborn" or intractable I think it was called in 3rd/4th ed as it was a horrible rule. And since they have currently taken everything away from DA and put it in the generic SM dex (except the character unlock for Terminators as toops), I'm expecting better.

I already have a DW with all the terminator arms magnatized - all I need is new weapon options.

Also - don't forget it's GW = bottom line sales. They will have to change something to bring in new dollars.

I'm keeping my deathwing- but I expect it to change. Though teleport homers on my squads seems like a given.

Omegus wrote:Anyway, I wouldn't really argue with Kan about Dark Angels. They are his super favorite Chapter, and he refuses to listen to anything remotely negative about them regardless of what may be written where. Which is his prerogative, I suppose.

Well I did notice that it seemed to be a terrible shame for the Dark Angels list to lose any uniqueness, whilst at the same time being quite acceptable that said uniqueness had come only at the cost of Codex Marine lists losing access to options they had previously possessed... But that was before Third Edition, which is apparently the same as never having happened at all.

The time before third was a wild and untamed time better left in the past.

The Deathwing themselves were formed from the Dark Angels first company. After attacking a spacehulk IIRC their leader, the master of their company sacrificed himself so the others could live. In his honour they changed their armour colour and some other stuff (cant remember) In this process they became the Deathwing.
At least if I are emember my old dex entry correctly. They became the deathwing in honour of their company master.
The compant veterans are each companys best forming an elite team. Fluff wise they're cool, but ruleswise games workshop imho couldnt have done worse.

blood lance wrote:The Deathwing themselves were formed from the Dark Angels first company. After attacking a spacehulk IIRC their leader, the master of their company sacrificed himself so the others could live. In his honour they changed their armour colour and some other stuff (cant remember) In this process they became the Deathwing.
At least if I are emember my old dex entry correctly. They became the deathwing in honour of their company master.
The compant veterans are each companys best forming an elite team. Fluff wise they're cool, but ruleswise games workshop imho couldnt have done worse.

Not a Space Hulk, but a Dark Angel recruitment world. However, also note the 4th Edition ret-con to it.

Lexicanum wrote:
The Deathwing's unique white colour scheme was originally described as being a mark of remembrance for a lone squad of Dark Angel Terminators who freed a recruitment world from a Genestealer infestation. As they did not expect to survive such a confrontation, they painted their armour white in preparation for their deaths. In the end the Deathwing triumphed and a vital part of the Dark Angels' heritage was saved. Later accounts portray this story (which is known as "The Tale of Two Heads Talking") as being a tale told to members of the Chapter who have not yet advanced far enough in the Chapter's hierarchy to know the darkest secrets of the Chapter, and the true reason for the change of colour scheme is in fact symbolic of the Deathwing's role as hunters of The Fallen and as members of the Chapter's Inner Circle.

ShumaGorath wrote:The time before third was a wild and untamed time better left in the past.

It lasted eleven years, and was the period in which the vast majority of the present background, including that of the Dark Angels, was first published. Significantly to discussion of whether or not the Dark Angels were first to have access to an all-Terminator list, it was also the era in which their first codex was published.

English Assassin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The time before third was a wild and untamed time better left in the past.

It lasted eleven years, and was the period in which the vast majority of the present background, including that of the Dark Angels, was first published. Significantly to discussion of whether or not the Dark Angels were first to have access to an all-Terminator list, it was also the era in which their first codex was published.

Yep. And as much as would be worth keeping much more is worth forgetting. There is established precedent following the end of second. Age does not give primacy and the goofy old days aren't a good thing to constantly reference when attempting to establish a more modern identity for the codex.

English Assassin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The time before third was a wild and untamed time better left in the past.

It lasted eleven years, and was the period in which the vast majority of the present background, including that of the Dark Angels, was first published. Significantly to discussion of whether or not the Dark Angels were first to have access to an all-Terminator list, it was also the era in which their first codex was published.

Irrelevant. Since GW publishes Codexes sequentially, everything was in some Codex "first" at some point. Codex Ultramarines, published before the original Codex Angels of Death, was the "first" to include things like Razorbacks, Whirlwinds, Landspeeders and Attack Bikes (where'd Ravenwing be now if "first" woulda always mean "exclusive"?), Veteran Squads and much more.

Again. Given the nature of GW's publication of Codexes everything on the table was first somewhere. Doesn't mean it was never meant to be second or third or fourth in some other place.

English Assassin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:The time before third was a wild and untamed time better left in the past.

It lasted eleven years, and was the period in which the vast majority of the present background, including that of the Dark Angels, was first published. Significantly to discussion of whether or not the Dark Angels were first to have access to an all-Terminator list, it was also the era in which their first codex was published.

Rogue Trader wasn't a fully-evolved miniature game yet, but IMO 2nd edition was a thousand times better than 3rd and 4th (and not so much speaking to the merrits of 2nd, as that could very well be rose-colored nostalgia glasses, but rather the horrendous awfulness of 3rd and 4th). 5th edition is a better game, but still needs some work.

I liked the older fluff more, too.

Anyway, it seems this thread is far from being related to News & Rumors anymore. Move to general?

The "Two Heads Talking" Deathwing fluff from the 'Deathwing' expansion to Space Hulk 1.0 was what got me into Warhammer 40K Rogue Trader back in 1990. And when the 2nd Edition box set came out in '93, my very first army was the Dark Angels because of my love for that story. I was saddened to read that ret-con of the 'validity' of that back story when they explained it away as a 'white lie' they used to hide the Inner Circle truth from recruits and regular DA Marines. It is what it is I guess, it it their IP after all.

The whole 'plasma' thing started, in my opinion, when they looked back at some of the artwork (Look up Jim Burns' painting they used as cover art for the 1989 Space Marine boxed game) and then the 2nd Ed. Space Marine squad boxed sets (Dark Angels Tactical Squad included a plasma gun marine, las cannon marine and a DA vet. sgt.) I think it was a loose design theme that they latched onto for the 3rd Ed. codex, where, like it was stated in an earlier post, they ran with it (Chaplain on the cover has plasma pistol, Azrael gets combi-plasma, later the Plastic/Metal Tac squad box gets plasma cannon and metal robed vet sgt with plasma pistol.) I don't have Rogue Trader with me right now, but I'd be interested to go back and see if there was a random photo of a DA figure holding a plasma gun in there that inspired Jim Burns, or vice/versa.

I agree it shouldn't be a Chapter defining feature, but the plasma 'theme' linked to the DA does seem to go back to at least '89 (Space Marine game cover again) so I don't hate the idea of them including something DA specific regarding Plasma weaponry in general.

I love the Idea of the Deathwing Attack from the 4th/5th ed codex, where Ravenwing bikes are all equipped with homers, so they can scout ahead and precision deploy a certain number of DW squads first turn. Might be over-powered to allow all DW squads this ability (rather than just half). But certainly gives a little uniqueness to the DAs.

Whatever they do, I hope it rekindles my interest in fielding my boys-in-green. Heck, those new-ish ForgeWorld pre-heresy model kits have me itching to do a small DA Legion force, black armor and all...

Blood angels have the melta and flamer sub theme, so this kind of thing isn't really particularly new. It was handled well for the BAs, I trust that they won't go overboard with angelplasma fists on their plasma angelnoughts.

Well, I vaguely remember some phrase that Dark Angels have exceptionally good access/an exceptionally large stash of high quality (pre-)Heresy weaponry, including lots o' Plasma-weaponry at the more mundane end, a large stash of TDA a bit up, and downright exotic things like a Jetbike at the far end.

Cannot seem to find the quote, so I might just be imagining it. In either case, the "theme" wouldn't nessarily be "plasma". Rather, the theme would be "exotic/ancient" weapons: plasma, relic blades, a jetbike or even two, etc.. ., and less of a reliance/use of more "mundane", "basic" and "loud" weaponry such as buckets of Missile Launchers, heavy bolters, (non-special/non-plasma) Vindicators, Dakka-Preds, chainswords, etc.. .

ShumaGorath wrote:Blood angels have the melta and flamer sub theme, so this kind of thing isn't really particularly new. It was handled well for the BAs, I trust that they won't go overboard with angelplasma fists on their plasma angelnoughts.

Yeah but instead the BA's got an overblown amount of 'Blood' weapons. Bloodshard, Bloodstrike, Bloodfist, Bloodtalon, Nemesis DOOMBLOOD Fists of Blood. Ok maybe not that last one.

It all comes down to who writes the Codex. If it's Cruddace, then it'll be a tepid and boring affair that leaves people wanting. If it's Kelly it'll be a perfectly good Codex with a few head-scratches. If it's a Ward Codex it'll be the next bandwagon to jump upon, and we'll get our Plasmafists and Plasma Rockets and everything else like that, with crazy stupid fluff.