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H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Blood angels have the melta and flamer sub theme, so this kind of thing isn't really particularly new. It was handled well for the BAs, I trust that they won't go overboard with angelplasma fists on their plasma angelnoughts.

Yeah but instead the BA's got an overblown amount of 'Blood' weapons. Bloodshard, Bloodstrike, Bloodfist, Bloodtalon, Nemesis DOOMBLOOD Fists of Blood. Ok maybe not that last one.

It all comes down to who writes the Codex. If it's Cruddace, then it'll be a tepid and boring affair that leaves people wanting. If it's Kelly it'll be a perfectly good Codex with a few head-scratches. If it's a Ward Codex it'll be the next bandwagon to jump upon, and we'll get our Plasmafists and Plasma Rockets and everything else like that, with crazy stupid fluff.

Wolf amulets, wolf riders, giant wolves, wolf saga's, jaws of the wolf, wolf fangs, wolf claws, they are Hungry like the wooooooolf... Kelly isn't perfect, but he's still better than the rest, even if he had a major blunder with the Space Wolves (points cost and overuse of theme)

The one thing I'd like to see is the consistent application of "Inner Circle wear bone-coloured armour" - so this would apply to all Chaplains, Captains and Librarians, as well as the Deathwing. Not quite sure how to apply it to the Master of the Ravenwing, however.

Master of the Ravenwing is in the Inner Circle AND he already has a freaking cape that fly out of his one-and-only jetbike.

Dysartes wrote:The one thing I'd like to see is the consistent application of "Inner Circle wear bone-coloured armour" - so this would apply to all Chaplains, Captains and Librarians, as well as the Deathwing. Not quite sure how to apply it to the Master of the Ravenwing, however.

Not all Captains are within the Inner Circle actually. From what I've seen it seems to be understood that the members of the Deathwing who deploy outside of Terminator armor show the bone-colors on their robes, rather than on their armor.

That said, I don't see it as a problem of Chaplains and Librarians retain their Codex colors. The Dark Angels do follow the Codex Astartes to an extent, which makes it believable that they would do such.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Blood angels have the melta and flamer sub theme, so this kind of thing isn't really particularly new. It was handled well for the BAs, I trust that they won't go overboard with angelplasma fists on their plasma angelnoughts.

Yeah but instead the BA's got an overblown amount of 'Blood' weapons. Bloodshard, Bloodstrike, Bloodfist, Bloodtalon, Nemesis DOOMBLOOD Fists of Blood. Ok maybe not that last one.

It all comes down to who writes the Codex. If it's Cruddace, then it'll be a tepid and boring affair that leaves people wanting. If it's Kelly it'll be a perfectly good Codex with a few head-scratches. If it's a Ward Codex it'll be the next bandwagon to jump upon, and we'll get our Plasmafists and Plasma Rockets and everything else like that, with crazy stupid fluff.

Angelfists and heavens wing rockets thankyouverymuch. The idiotic naming conventions were never based on the common weapon subtheme.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Wolf amulets, wolf riders, giant wolves, wolf saga's, jaws of the wolf, wolf fangs, wolf claws, they are Hungry like the wooooooolf... Kelly isn't perfect, but he's still better than the rest, even if he had a major blunder with the Space Wolves (points cost and overuse of theme)

Do be fair, most of those things existed before the current Woof Codex, and 'Wolf Claws' were the only real egregious one (outside of the entire concept for Thunderwolves, that is).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Wolf amulets, wolf riders, giant wolves, wolf saga's, jaws of the wolf, wolf fangs, wolf claws, they are Hungry like the wooooooolf... Kelly isn't perfect, but he's still better than the rest, even if he had a major blunder with the Space Wolves (points cost and overuse of theme)

Do be fair, most of those things existed before the current Woof Codex, and 'Wolf Claws' were the only real egregious one (outside of the entire concept for Thunderwolves, that is).

\
And to be fair, Thunderwolves did exist before the current Wolf codex.

It's only now that we saw the Wolves start riding Wolves.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Wolf amulets, wolf riders, giant wolves, wolf saga's, jaws of the wolf, wolf fangs, wolf claws, they are Hungry like the wooooooolf... Kelly isn't perfect, but he's still better than the rest, even if he had a major blunder with the Space Wolves (points cost and overuse of theme)

Do be fair, most of those things existed before the current Woof Codex, and 'Wolf Claws' were the only real egregious one (outside of the entire concept for Thunderwolves, that is).

Cracking open the 2000 Dex shows me that you're actually quite right, man these guys were obsessed with wolves.

Kanluwen wrote:And to be fair, Thunderwolves did exist before the current Wolf codex.

It's only now that we saw the Wolves start riding Wolves.

Then perhaps I should have said the concept of Thunderwolf Cavalry/

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And to be fair, Thunderwolves did exist before the current Wolf codex.

It's only now that we saw the Wolves start riding Wolves.

Then perhaps I should have said the concept of Thunderwolf Cavalry/

You should have! Being specific is important, HBMC!

But yeah. The cavalry bit is a tad much, I think.

At least for power armored Marines. I could see Blood Claws in Scout armor doing it or something ridiculous like that.

If you want the Deathwing to be a little more unique make them not scatter when they arrive by teleporter. Such an easy rule to incorporate....yet...so...useful.

Seriously Darkies are one of the armies I play regularly. I've got like 75 PAs and about 20 Termies painted up, and a bunch of tanks too. I've played out of the DA codex, and some of the other marine codices when it became obviously that playing out of the DA codex was like giving my opponent 400 more points to play with. I think it'd be really nice to see the Dark Angels get their due.

I wouldn't mind seeing
Expanded use of the chaplains.
No scattering for deepstriking Death and Ravenwings.
(If they're gonna make plasma a true DA thing) then give the lance attribute to DA plasma weapons.
Mortis Dreads and Jetbikes

anyways after reading six pages I'm in the mix.

Oh yeah, and remember the Blades of Reason...pretty neat if DA chaplains had access to items like this.

This Chaplain idea sounds alot more like Templar to me, even more so i think i have read and heard that chaplain idea was for the BT in the first place


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along with the SC dread chaplain


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Platuan4th wrote:

Shrike325 wrote:I hope the Chaplain thing isn't going to happen for DA, if it goes in anything it should be Black Templars.

We were doing the Chaplain thing long before you even got a special character, Knight Boy.

And just FYI every BT is more like a chaplain, thats why it fits more

I am sorry but Deathwing will always have to scatter when deepstrike. That's what the Ravenwing scout bikes are for. No need to change any of that.

There's also no legitimate reason to deny scattering due to teleport. That's the most unreliable form of travel and was that during the heresy.

I really hope the DA codex concentrates on shootiness, as the main theme. Good ways to do that, IMO:

Make BS5 fairly widely available. I think the easiest approach would be to give veterans BS5 instead of A2. So, sergeants, veteran squads, command squads, etc., all BS5 but only A1.

Bring in a few shooty-oriented archeotech items, preferably ones that were in the old fluff (we're an old chapter...). Terminator captains having wrist-mounted grenade launchers (Space Hulk style); a few heavy weapon marines having repulsors (granting relentless -- Space Crusade style); maybe access to a few twin-linked special or heavy weapons; maybe some special tanks. (All at a cost, of course)

Other than that, balance points costs out, keep DW and RW much as they already are, give us a load of new special characters, and I think we're good to go.

Well knowing how GW tends to throw out something unexpected (or at least imo) every SM codex since the vanilla 5th, I wouldnt be surprised if something weird popped up. Like jetbike squads

I hope not jetbike squads.

I would, however, deem Land Speeder Tempests as acceptable.

I could see Jetbike squads happening. FA, or Troops if you take Jet McBikeleader.

See and with jetbikes your landspeeder would be the equivalent of the attack bike.

Addmittedly I was pretty partial to the Ravenwing squad with the 6 bikes, attack bike, and the landspeeder.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I could see Jetbike squads happening. FA, or Troops if you take Jet McBikeleader.

We'll call them....Angel Bikes!

Or Dark bikes. Dark fists, Dark claws, Dark rounds, Dark Dark.

-Loki- wrote:

boyd wrote:The thing that made the Dark Angels awesome was the fact their units never broke, they had some of the most bad ass librarians (2nd edition had lots of psychology tests Librarians had to take which they always passed), they had the best bikers/land speeders of all marine chapters (with jink you just could not hit them), and their commanders had the best strategy ratings of anyone other than Marneus Calgar. To boot their fluff is probably the best of any of the other Legions (well except for the Horus Heresy stuff so far that isn't a short story).

The problem is, these things don't really make them different anymore, and while fluff might be good, it needs to translate into a unique looking model range. They really need to pick a direction and stick to it.

Making that direction based on them having better access to ancient technology is a good, unique direction that no other Marine codex really does apart from some of the stuff in the Grey Knight book, and it wouldn't be hard differentiating from that.

But thats the issue - thats what made them unique. The landspeeder with an Assault Cannon and Heavy Bolter when other chapters only had access to a flammer and MM, fearless terminators and characters when all other characters and terminators were not, MM's on attack bikes when other chapters only had HB's, a higher strategy rating for your commanders, the mortis dreadnought, etc. What made them unique has been spread to just about ever chapter.

Give them the Mortis Pattern Contemptor Dread, and make sure that nobody else can yank it from them.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Give them the Mortis Pattern Contemptor Dread, and make sure that nobody else can yank it from them.

Generic space marines already have that one.

ShumaGorath wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Give them the Mortis Pattern Contemptor Dread, and make sure that nobody else can yank it from them.

Generic space marines already have that one.

I know they do, but for them they would need to have permission to use forgeworld model/rules. My idea is to allow DA to be the one to have it within their own codex for use.

There's a distinct difference between internal and external balance. Bad internal balance is exemplified by the fact that two thirds of the choices in the space marine book are "The same as th/ss terms but worse". The fact that a 10 man lascanon dev squad and 2 5 man stern squads with lascanons are the same price is indicative of some pretty heavy drug use. That a storm bolter was 10 points is Linsane. There are two heavy flamers in the codex. One is five points the other is 35. Both are on infantry models. Nearly every special character HQ choice is 30+ points less than a same equipped generic choice. The entire book is miscosted against itself, ignoring exterior balance (which is also bad).

Shuma is spot on!

As for the SM HQ point costs just looking at what necron HQs get makes me wanna cry.

Dark Angels are the only rule wise army that is supposed and allowed to field an all terminator army based on their fluff of on occasion going to war only using terminators. But that is flawed as they are never "only" using terminators, the bike squad (and speeders) part of the army works hand in hand with the terminators and make the scout part of the force.

Speaking of pure fluff there is one other chapter that has not only a full company worth of terminator armour but actually more of the suits then the dark angels and that is the Salamanders.
Only difference being they never or very rarely go to war having all of their abnormally large first company wearing TDA suits.

ShumaGorath wrote:Inform someone who isn't a DA fluff nut. What makes Deathwing terminators better than the terms of any other chapter? I've seen people talk about it a lot, but it doesn't make a tonne of sense to me. It's not like they're older and I doubt they train harder. They're space marines. They all train 22 hours a day.

English Assassin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Inform someone who isn't a DA fluff nut. What makes Deathwing terminators better than the terms of any other chapter?

Originally, nothing more than a distinctive name and more fluff. I don't recall them ever having had extra-special rules, however.

To answer this question with another "Dark Angels Through History" post:

Back in the days of Rogue Trader? Nothing outside of a story in the Space Hulk expansion Deathwing. But that short story set out the theme that they were more bad ass than your run of the mill veterans (the retcon in 4th changed a lot of this though, I wish they had kept the basic gist of the story canon instead of going the route they did... which doesn't even make 100% sense since if it were written from the perspective of a young member of the Dark Angels then it wasn't just one squad of Deathwing taking the world was it? Should have kept it a band of 30 Deathwing including a Captain and a Librarian taking down an entire city of Genestealers on their own). That said, early in Rogue Trader they had absolutely no differences (armour was even black) so the Deathwing were a late addition to RT-era Dark Angels but stand out as one of three unique formations described in the fluff where most other chapters never received the same depth of description of their deployment methods.

In 2nd Edition, special rules were rare and wondrous things. All space marine forces could take an all-terminator army in those days (and the Space Wolves arguably had the most deadly termie formation because some joker decided heavy-weapon limitation was silly... for that one codex, they realized their mistake a little late and never fixed it in the errata). But the Dark Angels, like the Grey Knights got 'Immune to Psychology' which was pretty nice. They still took morale checks but they were immune to fear, induced-hatred and many other effects. Fear was especially important because it made them dead hard against chaos and nids back in the day.

In 3rd normal marines lost, not only, the ability to take all-vet armies, but they also lost the ability to mix and match gear in terminator squads. Deathwing got the stubborn special rule (immune to morale) and never had to take Intractable checks (a roll of 1 would root a DA squad and make it Stubborn) which made them a more reliable assault unit for the Dark Angels. They also maintained the ability to mix assault and heavy weapons together. That said back then they cost 52 points a piece and had no invulnerable save so they were reeeeeeeally hard to play on their own (my first army, how the hell did I ever win with them against my friend's star-cannon spam Eldar I will never know).

3rd Edition is the birth place of the Deathwing as the original all-terminator army and it has stuck for the last 13 years and has become a central part of the DA identity.

In 4th you got the whole teleport assault angle which was interesting and new but very poorly implemented as a one trick pony synergy with the Ravenwing who went from being an interesting formation to an overpriced Deathwing delivery system. I'd like to see the teleportation thing stick around but I'd like to see it expanded on and made more versatile because its use in 4th was very one-dimensional.

So the basics after 25 years of Dark Angels fluff:

- Common from the Deathwing story by Bill King up until the current codex the Deathwing are always described as some of the best warriors in the galaxy, standing even above other marine veterans in skill and ability (never really played up by the rules, something to look in to I think)
- They have a common thread of being unshakeable in the face of fear and/or overwhelming odds (translated to having some kind of morale-based special rule for the last 16 years)
- For the last 13 years they have been the quintessential elite all-terminator army. There is a reason Draigowing and Loganwing append 'wing' to the end of their names and it is because for nearly half of 40k's life the Deathwing have been archetypal in that kind of army (easy for those of us who started in 2nd to forget before we realize how short the universal all-terminator army's shelf life was)
- More recently (2007) they have also picked up the teleport assault niche and have managed to hold on to it longer than Lysander did since he lost that bit between the 4th Edition codex and the 5th Edition codex (it wasn't in the 3rd Edition codex)
- They have also, traditionally been the main source of the terminator command squad. In 3rd they had the option of an Apothecary, Standard Bearer and Tech Marine they lost this in early 4th when they received a FAQ that basically made them (and Blood Angels) a few minor tweaks to Codex: Space Marines (since both were 3rd Edition mini-dexes. But in late 4th the option came back and their ability to have a standard bearer and apoth in a terminator squad is their one unique point in the all-terminator army arena right now.

So there are 4-5 current points (depending on your stance on all-terminator armies) that have made them unique since at least the Angels of Death codex if not the original story by Bill King.

It would really be nice if they did something with the first point though. The last few times the Dark Angels have come up for revision GW has been of the mind not to change the basic marine stat line too much and so their stats have been pretty conservative. But ever since the latest Space Marine codex GW has been a lot more adventurous with the statlines of marine units. WS5 is being passed around to non-characters more often, more access to altered toughness in character, you even see two wound terminators with the GK's paladins. So between WS5 Wolf Guard and W2 paladins I think the Deathwing should see a few stat bumps to reflect their status as a cut above normal terminators.

Part of me is hoping they drop the character activated status of Deathwing's troop status and instead make them a permanent troop choice along with Ravenwing and instead move scout formations in to Fast Attack. So our troop selection would be Tacticals, Deathwing and Ravenwing bikers. This will help alleviate the fact that several other marine armies can do either all terminator or all biker armies with a few character choices and I think it helps represent that while the 1st and 2nd are battle companies like the 3rd, 4th and 5th (I think the 5th is a Battle Company) they are also used in normal formations as if they were a reserve company and can often be seen in large numbers without their respective master deploying. I figure Blood Angels picked up assault marines as troops despite not technically having any more than normal then it should be easy to justify permanent troop status when Deathwing and Ravenwing make up whole companies all by themselves. And with GK getting TDA GKs as permanent troop choices it seems even less out there.

Inform someone who isn't a DA fluff nut. What makes Deathwing terminators better than the terms of any other chapter? I've seen people talk about it a lot, but it doesn't make a tonne of sense to me. It's not like they're older and I doubt they train harder. They're space marines. They all train 22 hours a day.

On the contrary. DA terminators are worse on average then normal SM terminators. According to black library fluff anyway but also common sense.

Bear in mind that SM terminators are the elite of the chapters elite whereas with the DA the one red string thing above all that runs through their terminators is that they share forbidden knowledge .
Thus are there cases where marines not normally allowed into the 1:st company are taken in simply because they uncovered or by some means were made aware of the terrible truths normally reserved for the 1:st company.
In those cases they are made to swear terrible oaths of silence and taken in to the death wing.

Now in my opinion if a super elite band of warriors have to take in the occasional member who is normally not good enough to be there because the need of some secrecy then by all logic said band of warriors would not be as effective as a force consisting of o n l y the ones truly elite enough to be a part of such outfit.

I am curious as to why people think a unit called the "Inner circle" would be good. Most of the DA have never seen the "Inner circle", they know about them but they are not paraded around for all to see.

I just want them to try to stick to fluff as close as they can. DA are probably my favorite Marine chapter. I really don't want them to change there background like thye have done in the past. I want them to still be hunting the fallen and I still want Deathwing and Ravenwing to be part of there orginization.

If they do this then I am happy. I wouldn't mind seeing some Mortis Dread action. Or just Deathwing Dreads would be cool. Better BS maybe extra special rule or something to set them apart. Not really sure.

The inner circle is comprised of

Supreme Grandmaster Azreael
Grandmasters (Like Ezekial)
Interrogator Chaplains
Librarians
Master of the Forge.

They've seen them plenty. There's also a few more but I cannot remember.