Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

J Mac wrote:

Puscifer wrote: Then there's the DC Dreadnought and Astorath - who has apparently become obscene in 6th, but I don't see how.

We'll start with DCDread. With Blood Fists, he has I4, S10, AP2 attacks. Rage gives him +2 attacks on the charge, Fleet gives him re-rolls on run/charge, he has modified built in extra armor and he can take a good amount of shooting weapons. Oh yeah, all for 125 points!

On to Astorath, I think the biggest one here is he removes the 0-1 Death Company limitation. DC are beasts now and have NO down side, other than their overcosted JPS which I'm sure some people will pay for now with the integration of 6th Ed. Fearless in 6th Ed got waaaay better than 5th. Units just automatically pass morale and pinning checks and ignore Fear. IIRC, they don't take fearless saves for losing combat anymore. So the fact that when he is included in a BAs force, units become fearless on a roll of 1-3 in the beginning of the game. His axe and his artificer armor is only icing on the cake.

If I missed anything, please point it out. I love seeing how much better we got

I totally saw the DC Dread, just not how Astorath was getting better.

Dante is a beast BTW. That 2+ save is godly when facing stuff that isn't a power fist or axe. Ok, he doesn't bring as much to the table as Astorath, but it is still a fair amount of pain.

I'm not seeing that DC Jump Packs are going to be worth it. They are just way overcosted for what they bring. Ten basic DC or 9 with a Chaplain in a Transport or Drop Pod, adding what ever you wish to taste. Shoot the cack out of stuff then charge in and butcher what is left. That Rage rule is just insane combined with the other stuff we have.

Puscifer wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Puscifer wrote: Then there's the DC Dreadnought and Astorath - who has apparently become obscene in 6th, but I don't see how.

We'll start with DCDread. With Blood Fists, he has I4, S10, AP2 attacks. Rage gives him +2 attacks on the charge, Fleet gives him re-rolls on run/charge, he has modified built in extra armor and he can take a good amount of shooting weapons. Oh yeah, all for 125 points!

On to Astorath, I think the biggest one here is he removes the 0-1 Death Company limitation. DC are beasts now and have NO down side, other than their overcosted JPS which I'm sure some people will pay for now with the integration of 6th Ed. Fearless in 6th Ed got waaaay better than 5th. Units just automatically pass morale and pinning checks and ignore Fear. IIRC, they don't take fearless saves for losing combat anymore. So the fact that when he is included in a BAs force, units become fearless on a roll of 1-3 in the beginning of the game. His axe and his artificer armor is only icing on the cake.

If I missed anything, please point it out. I love seeing how much better we got

I totally saw the DC Dread, just not how Astorath was getting better.

Dante is a beast BTW. That 2+ save is godly when facing stuff that isn't a power fist or axe. Ok, he doesn't bring as much to the table as Astorath, but it is still a fair amount of pain.

I'm not seeing that DC Jump Packs are going to be worth it. They are just way overcosted for what they bring. Ten basic DC or 9 with a Chaplain in a Transport or Drop Pod, adding what ever you wish to taste. Shoot the cack out of stuff then charge in and butcher what is left. That Rage rule is just insane combined with the other stuff we have.

The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is

Dante being I1 kind of sucks.

Doesn't Dante's weapon count as an unusual power weapon, because it has an attached special rule? So he's actually striking at initiative with an mastercrafted ap3 weapon?

But Dante has a 2+ armour save. Only MC and Necron Units with a Warscythe are going before Dante, but even then he has the DMoS to bring them down -1 Initiative.

Answer is simple, stay away from MC and Warscythe units and belt the crap out of everything else. Dante belongs in CC and the fact he is a key part in what was a very mediocre army, which is now quite a strong one under 6th, is just gravy.

HQ

Dante - Unlocks SG for troops and is a pretty good beatstick.
Sanguinor - Makes SG really good and is also a pretty good beatstick.

Sanguinary Guard as Troops - Can destroy anything that doesn't have a 2+ save and murders baseline infantry.

Only downside is they are sorely missing some Anti Tank, unless you mount them in Stormraven.

DC on the other hand...

Astorath - Beatstick, unlocks the army, makes non DC great.
Tycho - I like him in his norm phase, but is there a way to protect him as DC Tycho?

DC - Now uber beyond all expectations, but still cannot claim any quarters.
DCD - Still insane and even more killy with Blood Talons as they have more attacks to gain more... attacks.

Rhino - Base transport.
Razorback - Heavy weapons, but rather crap as you can only transport a small squad.
LR/LRC/LRR - Always good for a laugh. LRR seems to be better here.
Stormraven - Can transport a DC unit and their DCD. What's not to like?
Drop Pod - Never once used a Pod. Could be useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coyote81 wrote:Doesn't Dante's weapon count as an unusual power weapon, because it has an attached special rule? So he's actually striking at initiative with an mastercrafted ap3 weapon?

I read it as a power axe that is Master Crafted.

I think the approach has to be DC without jump packs. Without jump packs they're probably the best non-scoring troop across a lot of codexes, but with jump packs they'll end up being priced like terminators with a 3+ save. I'm thinking DC in stormravens right now.

Coyote81 wrote:Doesn't Dante's weapon count as an unusual power weapon, because it has an attached special rule? So he's actually striking at initiative with an mastercrafted ap3 weapon?

Nothing unusual about it, it's just a power axe that's master-crafted and both those are covered in the main rulebook.

Puscifer wrote:

J Mac wrote:

Puscifer wrote: Then there's the DC Dreadnought and Astorath - who has apparently become obscene in 6th, but I don't see how.

We'll start with DCDread. With Blood Fists, he has I4, S10, AP2 attacks. Rage gives him +2 attacks on the charge, Fleet gives him re-rolls on run/charge, he has modified built in extra armor and he can take a good amount of shooting weapons. Oh yeah, all for 125 points!

On to Astorath, I think the biggest one here is he removes the 0-1 Death Company limitation. DC are beasts now and have NO down side, other than their overcosted JPS which I'm sure some people will pay for now with the integration of 6th Ed. Fearless in 6th Ed got waaaay better than 5th. Units just automatically pass morale and pinning checks and ignore Fear. IIRC, they don't take fearless saves for losing combat anymore. So the fact that when he is included in a BAs force, units become fearless on a roll of 1-3 in the beginning of the game. His axe and his artificer armor is only icing on the cake.

If I missed anything, please point it out. I love seeing how much better we got

I totally saw the DC Dread, just not how Astorath was getting better.

Dante is a beast BTW. That 2+ save is godly when facing stuff that isn't a power fist or axe. Ok, he doesn't bring as much to the table as Astorath, but it is still a fair amount of pain.

I'm not seeing that DC Jump Packs are going to be worth it. They are just way overcosted for what they bring. Ten basic DC or 9 with a Chaplain in a Transport or Drop Pod, adding what ever you wish to taste. Shoot the cack out of stuff then charge in and butcher what is left. That Rage rule is just insane combined with the other stuff we have.

My main thing for Dante is that he can make Sanguinary Guard troops choices.

Couldn't you model Dante with a sword instead?

No, because then think about how people would exploit that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, it's in the codex that it's an axe, so you're not going to fool anybody and nobody will let you switch it unless maybe in casual, but even then......nah.

rogueeyes wrote:
The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is

AP3 is really not all that bad. Sure you will struggle against TEQ units with him, however you have firepower to take them out. Lets face it, 6th ed = rise of the TEQ. So instead of saying how things suck or aren't that good or whatever, lets find a way to beat it. (No harsh feelings against quoted poster, I've just been seeing this a lot and it is starting to bug me. Just as wound allocation was "broken" in 5th, we found ways around it.)

On this subject, AP3 still tears through most units. Any troop unit will fall to anything AP3. A year ago, we would have been dieing for AP3 anything! Well, we got it, but not as we thought

Omegus wrote:Dante being I1 kind of sucks.

Maybe, but anything that is going to cut through his 2+ save is going to strike at the same initiative unless its a walker, MC or a war scythe. Just as Puscifer said, stay away from them. Shoot the assaulty, and assault the shooty!

Puscifer wrote:But Dante has a 2+ armour save. Only MC and Necron Units with a Warscythe are going before Dante, but even then he has the DMoS to bring them down -1 Initiative.

Answer is simple, stay away from MC and Warscythe units and belt the crap out of everything else. Dante belongs in CC and the fact he is a key part in what was a very mediocre army, which is now quite a strong one under 6th, is just gravy.

+1

J Mac wrote:
The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is
AP3 is really not all that bad. Sure you will struggle against TEQ units with him, however you have firepower to take them out. Lets face it, 6th ed = rise of the TEQ. So instead of saying how things suck or aren't that good or whatever, lets find a way to beat it. (No harsh feelings against quoted poster, I've just been seeing this a lot and it is starting to bug me. Just as wound allocation was "broken" in 5th, we found ways around it.)

Positive attitude is positive. I like it, and yes, let's find a good TEQ contingency.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do think though, that we can at least exploit wound allocation to eliminate the biggest threats in any given TEQ squad, as a start.

Plasma guns, and lots of them. Do not rid of your melts, because you'll need them too. In fact you'll need a very balanced force to be competitive. We're talking plasma for TEQ, melta for any ground vehicle, and ML for any flyers.

My biggest worry, will be facing the Green tide. New fearless took Ork mobs to a whole new tier...

It's a shame DC marines can't equip Plasma Guns and exploit Relentless, but a unit of 10 can take 10 plasma pistols...

But yeah, ASM squads should probably keep their melta loadouts.

Sanguinary Guard, Infernus pistols, worth it? 10 pts each. I'd consider giving them fists but that's just....well, even then it's suicide.

I've been cooking up a Sanguinary Guard list with some Veteran Backup (I'll post the full list later), but suffice to say, there is a lot of stuff that BA can field to make the SG list uber competitive in 6th.

First off, our apparent problems with TEQ. Well the answer here would usually be loads of small weapons fire, but SG lists can't field that many units. So I pondered over the use of Honour Guard. These guys can pack Plasma Guns and Jump Packs. Deep Strike of course being favourable for us, would mean that DS down next to them and shoot a unit of TEQ to death would be a good thing for us. At 225 points per unit, they are quite pricey, but they bring the pain better than most against TEQ. For 245 points, they could have Melta Bombs too, making them multi purpose.

Or for straight up Anti-Tank, take Vanguard Vets with Melta Bombs. DS in, Heroic Intervention and BOOM!!!

Rough 2k list:

Dante – 225
Sanguinor – 275

Sanguinary Guard – 235
Power Fist, Death Masks.

Sanguinary Guard – 235
Power Fist, Death Masks.

Sanguinary Guard – 235
Power Fist, Death Masks, Chapter Banner.

Honour Guard – 245
4 Plasma Guns, Melta Bombs, Jump Packs.

Honour Guard – 245
4 Plasma Guns, Melta Bombs, Jump Packs.

Furioso Librarian - 175
Shield of Sanguinius, Wings of Sanguinius.

Dante unlocks the SG and nerfs a hero. Sanguinor gets re-rolls against the nerfed hero and gives everyone in 6" +1A. The Chapter Banner gives anyone in 6" another +1A for a total of 5 on a charge for SG. The two units of Honour Guard give FNP to anyone in 6" and finally the Librarian Dreadnought give a cover save to anyone in 6".

I don't know if it will work as it doesn't have a large footfall and it will suffer when trying to get into combat, but I'm hoping the FNP will help save the SG along the way.

Instead of the Dread Librarian, take some Devs w/ MSL for 130pts and I think you could use a JP Librarian instead of of the Sanguinor and take the other 150pts and buy a second Dev squad w/ MSL. this should leave you 65pts, take a aegis defense line for your devs or a priest. I believe IC characters are going to be much more powerful then Meph or Sanguinor.

Stoffer wrote:I think the approach has to be DC without jump packs. Without jump packs they're probably the best non-scoring troop across a lot of codexes, but with jump packs they'll end up being priced like terminators with a 3+ save. I'm thinking DC in stormravens right now.

tried that this weekend but when the stormraven gets shot down that is a str 10 hit with no armor save and no fnp save due to it being instant death

imo stormravens are now beefed up stormtalons. if the opponent bring anti air or other fliers it is game over for everything inside

also vehicles are now so weak that while I will be bringing death company they'll be on foot or in a land raider with nothign in between

Well, the army has too less bodies. DoA armies tend to fall apart if being too small.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, the army has too less bodies. DoA armies tend to fall apart if being too small.

Yeah, thats what i'm noticing. Need more guys to bring more pain.

Working on a DC army list ATM, will post to critique later.

G00fySmiley wrote:

Stoffer wrote:I think the approach has to be DC without jump packs. Without jump packs they're probably the best non-scoring troop across a lot of codexes, but with jump packs they'll end up being priced like terminators with a 3+ save. I'm thinking DC in stormravens right now.

tried that this weekend but when the stormraven gets shot down that is a str 10 hit with no armor save and no fnp save due to it being instant death

imo stormravens are now beefed up stormtalons. if the opponent bring anti air or other fliers it is game over for everything inside

also vehicles are now so weak that while I will be bringing death company they'll be on foot or in a land raider with nothign in between

Bring the raven in as a skimmer if that's the issue. People will prepare to face fliers, so don't play into that.

Personally my ravens will fly when it'll be hard to shoot em down, skim on the dropoff, then back to flying if they still live. Ravens still play like in 5th; they're disposible pawns to get the choppy bits where they're needed

J Mac wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:
The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is

AP3 is really not all that bad. Sure you will struggle against TEQ units with him, however you have firepower to take them out. Lets face it, 6th ed = rise of the TEQ. So instead of saying how things suck or aren't that good or whatever, lets find a way to beat it. (No harsh feelings against quoted poster, I've just been seeing this a lot and it is starting to bug me. Just as wound allocation was "broken" in 5th, we found ways around it.)

On this subject, AP3 still tears through most units. Any troop unit will fall to anything AP3. A year ago, we would have been dieing for AP3 anything! Well, we got it, but not as we thought

Omegus wrote:Dante being I1 kind of sucks.

Maybe, but anything that is going to cut through his 2+ save is going to strike at the same initiative unless its a walker, MC or a war scythe. Just as Puscifer said, stay away from them. Shoot the assaulty, and assault the shooty!

Puscifer wrote:But Dante has a 2+ armour save. Only MC and Necron Units with a Warscythe are going before Dante, but even then he has the DMoS to bring them down -1 Initiative.

Answer is simple, stay away from MC and Warscythe units and belt the crap out of everything else. Dante belongs in CC and the fact he is a key part in what was a very mediocre army, which is now quite a strong one under 6th, is just gravy.

+1

I wasn't saying ap3 sucks. Its actually really good and he would work well at decapitating sargeants with power firsts before they could attack through challenges. Basicaly if you assault a tac or assault squad challenge the pf sargeant. With ws6 you hit on 3's. Wound on 2's. Really only fnp save will be there to prrevent death. If you get the warmaster trait that gives you 1 vp for each challenge won even better. Just run astorath around killing off sargeants and avoid terminators.

Running him with dc is just icing on the cake since they will be barrelling though just about anything.

I see some people mentioning that you have to choose either to use jump pack in movement or assault fase.

from what i could see in the rule book you can use jump packs in both you can just choose not to use them. or am i reading it wrong.

someone said that Brother Corbulo get 2+ FNP. where did you find this rule? could not find it in rulebook or faq

The rules for Jump Infantry require that you choose.

Read the entry for Corbulo in the Codex.

jbunny wrote:Read the entry for Corbulo in the Codex.

It's only for him. If it were for those in 6" too, it would be OP, but good.

rogueeyes wrote:

J Mac wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:
The only down side to astorath is ap3 on melee attacks.

For jump packs themovement is worth it from what I've seen. Or at least I think it is

AP3 is really not all that bad. Sure you will struggle against TEQ units with him, however you have firepower to take them out. Lets face it, 6th ed = rise of the TEQ. So instead of saying how things suck or aren't that good or whatever, lets find a way to beat it. (No harsh feelings against quoted poster, I've just been seeing this a lot and it is starting to bug me. Just as wound allocation was "broken" in 5th, we found ways around it.)

On this subject, AP3 still tears through most units. Any troop unit will fall to anything AP3. A year ago, we would have been dieing for AP3 anything! Well, we got it, but not as we thought

Omegus wrote:Dante being I1 kind of sucks.

Maybe, but anything that is going to cut through his 2+ save is going to strike at the same initiative unless its a walker, MC or a war scythe. Just as Puscifer said, stay away from them. Shoot the assaulty, and assault the shooty!

Puscifer wrote:But Dante has a 2+ armour save. Only MC and Necron Units with a Warscythe are going before Dante, but even then he has the DMoS to bring them down -1 Initiative.

Answer is simple, stay away from MC and Warscythe units and belt the crap out of everything else. Dante belongs in CC and the fact he is a key part in what was a very mediocre army, which is now quite a strong one under 6th, is just gravy.

+1

I wasn't saying ap3 sucks. Its actually really good and he would work well at decapitating sargeants with power firsts before they could attack through challenges. Basicaly if you assault a tac or assault squad challenge the pf sargeant. With ws6 you hit on 3's. Wound on 2's. Really only fnp save will be there to prrevent death. If you get the warmaster trait that gives you 1 vp for each challenge won even better. Just run astorath around killing off sargeants and avoid terminators.

Running him with dc is just icing on the cake since they will be barrelling though just about anything.

Exactly my point. Astorath got better for sure, but he is no Mephiston either. Just as any unit, weigh your odds before throwing them into combat.

Puscifer wrote:

jbunny wrote:Read the entry for Corbulo in the Codex.

It's only for him. If it were for those in 6" too, it would be OP, but good.

I agree. Someone was just asking where people got the 2+ FNP for Corbulo. I was pointing out where it was found.

Thank you for the quick answers. didnt have codex nearby.

And looks like i missed that part under jump infantry.

6th Edition may be the "rise of TEQ", but if anything, BA are specially equipped to handle TEQ. How's that?

Death Company.

Even without any special gear, stick a chaplain in with them and they are just godly.

10 death compnay + chaplain = 300 pts.

That's...what?.....somewhere in the range of 40 to 50 wounds after all is said and done with Liturgies of Blood. Even against a 2+ TEQ save, that's 5 or 6 dead termies. And all at I4!

I had a goofy idea before:

Blood angels allied with Crimson Fists.

Take Kantor, a scout (sniper) squad with Telion for Troops and Sternguard in a pod with Combi-flamers (and possibly a melta/plasma gun or two.) Camp them (with Pedro) on an objective, dropping d3 flamer hits per combi-flamer on the first unit to assault them, then fight back with the bonus attacks Kantor grants.

Meanwhile Telion (and on a 6, his snipers) can pick off high-value targets in units the BA troops assault on the following phase.

Of course, its probably terrible, but it sounded interesting in my head, anyway