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silent25 wrote:Even Vallejo and P3 paints that are meant to mirror GW's old paints don't always match exactly and no one had a good match for Hawk Turquoise. And now it's gone :(

Not sure where you got the idea from that the P3 paints were meant to mirror GWs range, silent, but that is incorrect.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/paintChart.jsp?catId=cat820002a

new paint guide.

..careful as you go though, it is suspiciously annoyingly easy to accidentally add a paint to your cart.

Every one of those has a drybrush step at (or near) the end which I assume is optional. I always thought drybrushing was a fairly limited or low-end technique, no? So to pimp these paints can we expect the 'eavy metal team to start drybrushing their final highlights during a masterclass?

coyotius wrote:I always thought drybrushing was a fairly limited or low-end technique, no?

Drybrushing is an easy technique to learn to get results quickly to get a specific result, obviously a lot easier to learn than a technique like blending or NMM. But some people look down on people that drybrush, which I think is elitist. A good artist knows when to use what tool or technique. For me, it's the result that counts, not the method.

coyotius wrote:Every one of those has a drybrush step at (or near) the end which I assume is optional. I always thought drybrushing was a fairly limited or low-end technique, no? So to pimp these paints can we expect the 'eavy metal team to start drybrushing their final highlights during a masterclass?

It's all optional- it's a just a useful system to follow, especially for those who are not top-tier painters.
Dry-brushing is a perfectly valid technique whatever your skill level- depends on the effect you're after

Lorizael wrote:

coyotius wrote:Every one of those has a drybrush step at (or near) the end which I assume is optional. I always thought drybrushing was a fairly limited or low-end technique, no? So to pimp these paints can we expect the 'eavy metal team to start drybrushing their final highlights during a masterclass?

It's all optional- it's a just a useful system to follow, especially for those who are not top-tier painters.
Dry-brushing is a perfectly valid technique whatever your skill level- depends on the effect you're after

Very true, in the past I have always used drybrushing to highlight EVERYTHING.

I learned new techniques since then, but I still find drybrushing a very effective way to weather/age straight edges on tanks, drop pods, etc. I still think it gives a great "paint peeling off" effect.

d-usa wrote:Very true, in the past I have always used drybrushing to highlight EVERYTHING.

I learned new techniques since then, but I still find drybrushing a very effective way to weather/age straight edges on tanks, drop pods, etc. I still think it gives a great "paint peeling off" effect.

Perhaps this is a phase all people in the HHHobby go through. I too used to drybrush every marine I painted to make the edges look "weathered". This was when I first learned how to do it, very early on.

I do still use it exactly as you say, to highlight edges on armor plates on vehicles.

I just put in an order from some VGC. I find the new names a little confusing and want to wait until people use them some before trying them myself.

Forgive my cynicism but it seems these guides go out of their way to ask you to use as many paints as possible at any one time.

C'mon really - 6 different blues to paint a fething Ultramarine?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Forgive my cynicism but it seems these guides go out of their way to ask you to use as many paints as possible at any one time.

C'mon really - 6 different blues to paint a fething Ultramarine?

And that's only the blues, now just load up on a dozen or so metallics, some texture paint for the base and you should be ready to paint your very first ultramarine!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Forgive my cynicism but it seems these guides go out of their way to ask you to use as many paints as possible at any one time.

C'mon really - 6 different blues to paint a fething Ultramarine?

Well, obviously, one of the goals of the new paint range was to reduce mixing to make it easier for beginning painters. The older paint guides usually had increasingly lighter paint mixes instead of just switching to a lighter colour.

Drybrushing is a VERY situational tool to be used. Some people use it as a finish to a model, and I would hazard that for those with less skill or desire it works fine like that, along with dipping.

Personally I only drybrush chainmail anymore, mostly because my skill in other techniques has outgrown the need to drybrush entire models. I did it when I was starting and it worked relatively well for the skills I possessed at the time.

That said, I don't look down on anyone who has painted models on the table. I can't stand bare plastic.

The rational behind the new paint range is the following:
Currently many people stop buying stuff because they don't get it painted fast enough.
So GW will release step by step instructions, how you can achieve quite good standards quickly, without mixing and using the different subtypes of paints, as shown in the sets. Improves sales in paints, improves sales in models. If it works.

I agree that you don't need 6 blues to paint High Elves or Ultramarines. The glaze is completely unnecessary for blue painting.

I'd say an ultramarine could be done(at least to my own standard of acceptable) with 1 base, 1 shade and perhaps 2 highlight colors(for the armor that is). If you are doing highlights then you don't really need the drybrush and I've already gone over the ridiculous glaze bit.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Forgive my cynicism but it seems these guides go out of their way to ask you to use as many paints as possible at any one time.

C'mon really - 6 different blues to paint a fething Ultramarine?

Well, their old painting guides weren't really that different...they just had mixing paints.

Eisenhorn wrote:It takes 3 colors 5 if you count white and black and any home depot can do it with any paint
all colors are based off of the three primaries Red,Yellow,Blue
They just want you to switch

This is not really correct.

I'm glad people are enjoying the new paints. The only thing I'd ever buy from GW is some new Devlan Mud (or whatever it is now) or foundations. Haven't seen any updates on the change to Devlan Mud, is it still as good (or better by eliminating pooling)?

Who wants to ruin two "layers" coats with a drybrush? o.O

Kroothawk wrote:The rational behind the new paint range is the following:
Currently many people stop buying stuff because they don't get it painted fast enough.
So GW will release step by step instructions, how you can achieve quite good standards quickly, without mixing and using the different subtypes of paints, as shown in the sets. Improves sales in paints, improves sales in models. If it works.

This is well stated. I have tons of flour, cocoa, and sugar in my house but every time I want brownies, I always reach for the easy mix box rather than start from scratch.

Kroothawk wrote:

kb305 wrote:i heard the washes are totally different?
so lame

Yeah, improving a product is so lame.

It's changed it must be bad, All change is bad. We don't want better products.

*sigh*

From what i've seen/used of these new paints in GW York they are a marked improvement.

On the dry brushing, it looks great on fur, textured bases, and some weathering (tank tracks, smoke stacks, and so on). Beyond that, I don't use it.

So, to try and recap
Most of the colors are better but, they look markedly different?

I got a chance to have a play the other day finally, and overall it's a mixed success in my opinion.

I was gonna write a rather lengthy appraisal but I really don't have the time and so I just ditched it for this summary. I would like to think that anyone that knows me here on Dakka (which is few, admittedly) would appreciate an opinion of the new paints from the stance of a gamer, and professional painter. I have included a couple of quick reviews from some guys I know from elsewhere too. Some of you may recognise their names, but don't let that sway you of course.

First thing I noticed is the quality - they smelled like very high quality acrylics, on par with, or even better than, the GW paints of old. They all have excellent handling, pigmentation, coverage, and medium properties. They are quite possibly the best paints GW have ever done - and I don't say that lightly!

Bases cover well. Mebbe even as good as, or better than, the Foundations, but with improved handling due to the new acrylic recipe, and the ditching of the vinyl-heavy base. All good here.

Layers are the same, and thankfully they were pretty thick in the pot. They certainly weren't watered down to optimal layering consistency as some early reports had alluded to (though this could be due to the terribly flexible lids not being closed properly by the people that had been using them, which you have to check very carefully when closing them to ensure it has been sealed all the way round). The only thing that I can fault with them is that many of them are just lighter shades of each other (part of the paint-by-numbers approach for gamers) and experienced painters will barely ever tuck into the majority of the range I suspect. It's just a money spinner for kids that can't mix, don't want to mix, or... shock horror... want consistent results. In this respect they are perfect for army painters and are effectively GW's take on the 'triad' system used by other companies.

Shades/washes. Does the job very well! A new, high quality acrylic base that wont stink over time thankfully (I was told the old ones had active enzymes in them!) TBH they really aren't too different from the old ones in use (a good thing indeed), perhaps a little thinner out of the pot, and now there's plenty more usable colours too. Thumbs up all round again... assuming the new Devlan mud is still an army painters dream of course... I've stocked up on the miracle mud anyway.

Dry - Do the job well enough. Makes it easier for those that struggled in the past to drybrush properly, but will be of no use to myself for example. Can be thinned with water and painted with normally too. (Apparently I am the first to try this. lol)

Glazes - We've all seen them all before from other manufacturers. Very vivid and saturated pigmentation though. Reminiscent of a glaze made from the old inks and some added medium/water. Still needed thinning a LOT for 'real' glazing techniques though, but as they're in a trans base they will certainly be easier for gamers to use compared to glazing with opaque base acrylics. Unfortunately limited to 4 colours though.

Some pots do stay open (at an optimal angle too!), and eventually they all will have those lids. The lid now seals closed with the tub itself which will help provide a more airtight seal then the old/current ones that seal to a ring, which in turn is joined to the tub (which used to cause a lot of the drying out issues before). Definite improvement here.

Major problem though... The metallic flake size. :( GW's silvers were by far the best silvers on the market, up there with the VMA's for flake size, coverage, consistency of finish, smoothness etc. I tried the Boltgun Metal replacement (a 'base'), and I was not impressed. I tried thinning it to varying degrees, tried multiple coats etc, but next to the BGM it was very clearly inferior.

Being a bit miffed at this I tried another metallic to see if the flake issue was consistent across the range. So I broke out the Necron Compound (a 'dry'). This is pretty much a Mithril silver, but in a mousse as per the other dry paints. I painted it on next to the BGM (and whatever it's replacement is called) in varying consistencies and layers. The flake was just as bad (but not as awful as the P3's for example). I cannot recommend these as they are simply inferior in every way to the old ones. I have yet to use the new golds and so cannot comment on them. I have stocked up on the old silvers, but from now on it's gonna have to be VMA's all the way. There are going to be some metallic 'layers' too (inc Chainmail, and another Mithril), so hopefully these will be an improvement. If not, then don't bother. Get some VMA's and be happy you made the right decision!

Oh, I nearly forgot the textures! Just don't even bother. It's just sand in the paint, not even a 'proper' fine texture paint. Useless for all but the absolute laziest of (rich) painters, that want to base their models with it. Crap for mud effects too in case anyone was wondering about this particular application.

Colour matching! This is a BIGGIE for people like myself. For display-only painters you likely wont notice or care, but for those of us that go through tubs like they do cartons of milk, this is a serious issue. Not a single paint I had a chance to use is anywhere nearly close enough to consider it a usable match to the old colours (except possibly the crappy BGM replacement). Suitable alternatives, yes, but you will be very sorely disappointed if you are half way through a project, or ever wish to go back and expand and old army for example.
Even to the naked eye, hues are way off what they recommend as a replacement and am given the impression that minimal effort was made to keep people happy in this regard, which is a shame. I can see many people re-doing their half painted armies to match the current colours.


Overall though the paint quality is excellent, and to me this is the important bit. I for one cant wait to try some out over a longer test period. I doubt I will bother with most of the range as many really are just lighter tones, but you certainly wont get bored with the choice for a long while yet!


-----------------

Another summary, from Mark Lifton:

Well chaps, I was lucky enough to be invited up to GW Towers on Thursday to have a sneak preview of the new paint range and play with them for a few hours.

Overall. I have to say that I was very impressed … even though, if I’m being honest, I was not necessarily expecting to be

Sounds like an awful lot of time and effort has gone into developing these. The good news is that they are all made from the same base by the same manufacturer which should mean a more consistent feel / finish to the paints – in the past, different paints have been made by different manufacturers - they now do all the pot filling at GW UK. There are sequenced sets of colours that contain the same pigments. The levels of pigments have also been reduced slightly as you move through the sequence of 2 layer paints making adding the highlight shades easier. The washes (now called Shades) no longer smell and taste bad (you’ll have to make do with sticking the handle of your paintbrush in your ear and sucking that if you want to reminisce).

First of all, remember what the ultimate target is – those younger enthusiasts (which some of you seem so dismissive of) and army painters. I think that they have made the whole process of painting minis a lot easier and far more accessable for beginners (de-mystified really)- i know that i would have found getting started a lot easier with this set. This is their stated aim for the new paints and I think they have achieved their goal. However, I still think that there is a lot of stuff that serious painters will all enjoy playing with. Don't forget that paints are just one of our tools and that we are the ones that 'add the magic ingredient', decide how much we want to dilute paints for our techniques, mix colours to make new ones - this new set just adds more stuff to play with!

Being able to use a progression of colours straight from the pot, rather than mix interim colours is really going to help youngsters and 'speed' army painters. I know that this is not a new idea as such, although including the washes and dry brush paints is (I think?).

Base coats still give good coverage. The layers I tried all worked very well ... and yes, I did still dilute them.
I had a very quick go with some of the new gold – I only did a base coat, followed by a wash (Shade) and then a layer and it produced a better result that the previous paints ... too good. The new gold seemed to produce a slightly more shiny end result than the old one. It looked too good really.

I was really impressed with the Shades (washes). I gave them a really stern test by flooding some areas of a test model and there were no tide marks (in fact in one area I achieved a very pleasing shadow effect with a soft edge - a real surprise) and they really shaded very smoothly - better than the 'old' ones. I am happy to say that there are equivalents to Devlan Mud and Gryphon Sepia … otherwise I would have cried!

The yellow (orange!!!) glaze that I tried was excellent. I also overdosed an entire model with it and again there were no tide marks - impressive. It gave a lovely yellow colour when used over white which deepened to an orange in the deeper recesses – it looked like I’d spent hours shading – THIS IS CHEATING. Both this and the Shades are so forgiving that youngsters are going to really enjoy getting good results very quickly.

I think that the dry brush paints will help newcomers a lot too. Many younger painters struggle with the idea of getting the paint on their brush dry enough with very messy results. This makes it easier but still needs care not to overload the brush. OK, so us old lags know how to dry brush ... and some of you shun it ... but again for youngsters and army painters it's a great technique.

The textured paints were good fun and a very useful addition for quickly adding some interest to the flat bases for a whole unit whilst simultaneously getting rid of the slot lines first time. Much better than liquid green stuff for this job and quicker than glue and sand.

I liked a lot of the new colours that I saw – there was too much to take in all at once!

So overall, very impressed. Now all we have to do is to get used to 143 new paint names (the Liquid Green Stuff and Ardcoat kept their names).

------------------

And another quick review from Martin Waller:

Well its saturday, so I think im now allowed to talk about this stuff! Hooray!

Earlier this week I, and a few others, went up to GW HQ to test out these new paints. Learn a bit about the theory behind the range, have a play with them and give GW our thoughts.

I actually really like them! They get a massive thumbs up from me! I didnt know what to expect but i was pleasantly surprised.

Darren Latham sat with us for a considerable length of time trying to answer as many questions as he could and was really keen in asking us what we really thought. He was a massive part of this project and worked closely with the chemist types to formulate the range and the colours. It was clear that a lot of thought had gone into this range and he was justifiably quite proud of his efforts!

So the paints themselves.. The painting process has been broken down into 6 stages. Base, shade, layer1, layer2, drybrush and glaze. With each paint formulated to do a different job.

The bases I used were really good. Went on in 1-2 coats (I thinned it quite a bit) over black and my favourite was Khorne red, a real deep red similar to the current scab red. The metallic base paints were very nice too. They were quite matt and you could build up a (very) shiny set of highlights with the layer paints. One of the golds was so shiny that we could see an actual reflection of a window in a space marines helmet.

The layer paints are designed to be used in a certain order, with opacity levels suited for each stage. They seemed to take a tiny bit longer to dry which was great to help out with the blending. Again the reds I used over my Khorne red base were absolutely great. Some really good highlight colours that didnt go yellowy orange or Pink. Big thumbs up for "wild rider red"!!!!

The texture paints were, well, textured! You can make little molehills and stuff with it so I suppose it will be useful for tabletop armies. Not everyones cup of tea but I can see gamers getting alot out of them. I chucked one of the washes over it and it looked quite good.

The drybrush paints were bizarre. Its like if ready brek and angel delight had an illegitimate child! I only used them briefly to drybrush a pistol but it seemed to work well, looked really good with a nuln oil shade over the top. Is it going to be a staple in a high end painters toolbox? Probably not. Will it be for a young skaven player who wants to batch paint his army? Definately.

Overall I was really impressed with how much work has gone into this. The end product is really ,really good. Its not going to be everyones cup of tea but as we discussed on the day, its not easy producing a range that has to appeal to such a vast range of talents and skill. The New "how to paint" book is really well made and a quality product. Didnt get to see the DVD in action so cant really comment on that part.

Ill certainly be using the new paints going forward. A really good quality set of products.

IMO the most effective way to paint is priming, airbrushing, re-coating basecolor, first highlight, second highlight, 3rd highlight (only brightest spot where light would hit).

These new paints seem to be perfect for 4/5 levels of my painting. The fact that they have so many different shades for each basic color, they seem to have finally released master class level paints for the hobbyists who cant stand color variations on mixing paints manually. This will definitely cost me triple, maybe quadrouple what I used to pay for that one paint pot, but no more headaches and similar but not exact color variations.

The downside: Not many people have tried out the paints, cost is expenisve, and colors names have changed/discontinued. I just hope I can still replicate old paint colors so I dont have to repaint entire armies I own.

Drybrushing is a VERY situational tool to be used. Some people use it as a finish to a model, and I would hazard that for those with less skill or desire it works fine like that, along with dipping.

It might not be your intention with that statement, but I hate when this same opinion gets expanded to "Drybrushing is for crappy painters that don't know any of the better skills". I love drybrushing, and have been using it in some form or another for 15 years.


Also, about the new paint range and it's color matching, any inability of GW to match the old colors is complete gak. Otherwise I Vallejo Game Colors wouldn't be a viable option. Especially things like Boltgun Metal.

I'm also interested in the others of the new GW metallics and if they are as crap as the last ones. I own Brassy Brass from VGC, and it outperforms every single gold/brass tone from GW that I own.

It's like using the paint, a regular brush, an airbrush, drybrushing, dipping etc.
It's all just a method - a means to an end to get a painting model.

I know a guy who paints spectacular minis, and apart from the initial basecaot+block colour, his stuff is 95% drybrushed.

Personally, I'm going to be dipping the majority of my skaven.
Because screw hand shading 100+ clanrats.
Then drybrushing them.

reds8n wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/paintChart.jsp?catId=cat820002a

new paint guide.

..careful as you go though, it is suspiciously annoyingly easy to accidentally add a paint to your cart.

Tell me about it!

I had pre-ordered what I felt I needed/wanted to try, I click on that link and buy about a dozen more pots!

reds8n, you're a git!

Aerethan wrote:

silent25 wrote:

Eisenhorn wrote:It takes 3 colors 5 if you count white and black and any home depot can do it with any paint
all colors are based off of the three primaries Red,Yellow,Blue
They just want you to switch

But if was so easy, we could switch to any other line with no problem. Even Vallejo and P3 paints that are meant to mirror GW's old paints don't always match exactly and no one had a good match for Hawk Turquoise. And now it's gone :(

Holding both in my hand this very moment, Vallejo's Game Color Turquoise and Hawk Turquoise are 1:1 matches. QQ less.

Not from my experience. The Vallejo wasn't the same. A bit duller.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dysartes wrote:

silent25 wrote:Even Vallejo and P3 paints that are meant to mirror GW's old paints don't always match exactly and no one had a good match for Hawk Turquoise. And now it's gone :(

Not sure where you got the idea from that the P3 paints were meant to mirror GWs range, silent, but that is incorrect.

Didn't mean to imply all paints were meant to match, but ones like Thrall Flesh vs Rotting Flesh and similar related names are incredibly close. But others aren't, like Cryx Bane Highlight.

silent25 wrote:

Eisenhorn wrote:It takes 3 colors 5 if you count white and black and any home depot can do it with any paint
all colors are based off of the three primaries Red,Yellow,Blue
They just want you to switch

But if was so easy, we could switch to any other line with no problem. Even Vallejo and P3 paints that are meant to mirror GW's old paints don't always match exactly and no one had a good match for Hawk Turquoise. And now it's gone :(

The point I was trying to make is any paint manufacturer can get an exact color match I never said anything about coverage,drying,yadda yadda.

If you were just going to paint one model you can make any color with Red,Yellow,Blue even Hawk Turquoise or my favorite Scaly Green.
But when painting an army no way you could exact match,mixng paint on the fly.

But on what you said does the new range not have a Hawk Turquoise equivilant,should I be buying this up?
Just bought a crapton of Dhenb Stone and Charadon Granite

You can do what Simon Grant apparently does. he takes a syringe full of the paint, and each mixing paint, so he can exacltly recreate a colour when he needs it.

Orki wrote:I got a chance to have a play the other day finally, and overall it's a mixed success in my opinion.
(snip)

Thank you for your review. It's good to see the new paints are nice, and good to hear the new metals are not before I invest in them. I'll have to stock up on Boltgun Metal. Does anyone know if there is a reasonably good alternative to the GWS metallic paint, qualitywise? I tried P3 and it was quite poor (although I quite like some of their other colors). I haven't tried VGC in this shade.

Ouze wrote:

Orki wrote:I got a chance to have a play the other day finally, and overall it's a mixed success in my opinion.
(snip)

Thank you for your review. It's good to see the new paints are nice, and good to hear the new metals are not before I invest in them. I'll have to stock up on Boltgun Metal. Does anyone know if there is a reasonably good alternative to the GWS metallic paint, qualitywise? I tried P3 and it was quite poor (although I quite like some of their other colors). I haven't tried VGC in this shade.

No worries man.

Alongside GW silvers, Vallejo Model Air silvers are also stunning. Superb quality and flake size (as they're designed to go through airbrushes). They're also a little thinner then the GW's and so will brush on very smooth even if you're painting with them neat, but on the flipside you may find drybrushing more difficult until you get used the how much to draw off the brush again.

They're well worth trying out a couple for when the inevitable eventually happens and your Citadels runs out...