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More responses direct to Dakka from Mkoll:

Well right now the "Command Vox" is 15 Points per command squad, while the Troop Vox is 5 points.

The Heavy Stubber is a Troop Weapon as well as a Vehicle upgrade. Personally I think the Stubber will stay at 5 and the Bolter will move to 10 so that the Stubber is cheapest yet weakest.

For Dakka's Kungfuhustler,

Well in reality the Plasma is a rare tech in the Imperium. Ryza is one of only a few Forge Worlds where the tech is still able to be made. As such even new Regiments from a high tech world would be equipped with Flamers, Meltas and Grenade Launchers more often. These might look more advanced and sleeker but would still be them in general. Also remember that sure a Plasma Gun does cost 15 points but the kill of a single marine killed makes up the cost easily enough. So use your Plasma they are still balanced and will do enough damage to be worth their points.


He also responded to a question on Boot Camp thusly:

Ratling Joe wrote:Surely though the extra 5 points for a heavy bolter over a stubber makes the Heavy Bolter the best choice every time?

I cant see why you wouldnt spend a extra 5 points to get the bolter, unless you played a squad heavy horde army.

Maybe its just me being dim.

Well 5 points does add up. Plus think about it you only lose a Strength and some AP by saving 5 points. So this will make the choice, plus some people love the idea and looks of Stubbers my Traitor Guard are one of them.


In a further post, he states:
So some interesting Info. I do NOT work for GW in any sense. All right there I said it. I do however have various soruces obviously. This is the reason I can release such info. If I worked for GW I would more likely have up to the date info and then not be allowed to share it so much.

I received my WIP's in mid NOVEMBER. Now I have had a few changes and updates thrown my way and and such I have done my best to mix it in. However the fact remains that my info could be very wrong. As some of you may know I do keep up to date on alot of releases especially when my Guard are involved. Those who remember the Apoc rumour roundup I had to keep doing will especially know this to be true and I was spot on about those everytime. Keep this in mind though I am working with some rather older material and some newer.

Posters on Warseer claim to have seen the completed English codex and I cannot say they haven't. I can tell you that the people whom I talk to about such things have not thrown me such a bone. As such my advice is to take everything you read with some serious salt.

There is a chance my contact is wrong and the codex is in full print already. And as such the other rumours are more true. Please keep in mind though what I am posting for you are simply that, rumours. They are not facts just things I have seen or heard.

I pray that my info is quite close because I have seen some potential for a great army from the stuff I have, however it is lacking some key components such as an "Order" system that appears to have been confirmed by someone in or very close to GW.

I thank you all for the questions and I am doing my best to answer them with the info I have, but do not take my answer as the gods honest word and think that because I said it, it will happen. Take time to read BoLS, Warseer, Dakka and here because that will IMO give you a better sense of what to expect.

There's also a lot of discussion over on Boot Camp about how you'll no longer be able to field an entire army of non-Storm Troopers in carapace - there's quite a hubbub about it. As no one here's making a big deal about it, though, I'll save you Mkoll's comments on it.

Ug.. I just priced out what may be my new death korps (counts as IG) list based loosely upon these rumors... I'm going to have to sell one of my cars to pay their prices! oh well, I have more than enough cars!

Actually I'd take those comments as well.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Also remember that sure a Plasma Gun does cost 15 points but the kill of a single marine killed makes up the cost easily enough. So use your Plasma they are still balanced and will do enough damage to be worth their points.

No. They won't. Ever.

They're worth 8 points on a Guardsmen. 10 points for the gun plus a 2 point price break due to the fact that they can kill the user. Same as how Plasma Guns on Marines are worth 10 (15 for the gun and a 5 points price break because it can kill them, and Marines are worth more than a Guardsman when killed by their own weapons). Anything that can kill the user should get a price break. And I'm sick of these fluff justifications used to explain high prices. The rules should be balanced against themselves, not against the fluff. If something is useless but rare you don't jack the price up due to its scarcity.

Things should be worth their cost, or cost their worth. It's a very simple rule to follow.

BYE

The mortar was ten points before and already a questionably choice. At ten points again after a nearly across the board points cut and apparent change in the support squad structure it becomes even more a niche weapon. Unless the stats change, of course.

A ten point drop on lascannon points would be quite welcome, and the five point drop on missiles and autocannon too. That's a proportionate 2/5-1/3 off, which would keep prices proportionately in line (or slightly better in case of lascannon) with 4 point guardsmen. If they kept upgrade prices the same or even increased them that would increase the temptation to run unupgraded guardsmen, which would mean they'd sell fewer heavy weapon boxes.

Special weapons barely changed, didn't change, or increased. Two special weapons come with the troops box, while the other two are still in metal. The guys who sprung for metal plasmas must be pissed, but I stuck to the infantry box specials so this doesn't affect me much.

If these rumors are true then I'll still be able to run more or less the army I was before. No clear solution to the KP problem, but then they also didn't smash the whole organizational structure of the Guard army in an attempt to fix it.

I fully agree with you HMBC. The thought of carapace armor hadn't even crossed my feeble caffeine ridden brain yet but now that it's been brought up the idea isn't a bad one at all. +20 pts per squad for carapace armor is MUCH more appealing now with the 20 pt decrease for guard squads. I hope they keep it just so I can play around with it. The idea of not having my dog-troops shredded by standard issue guns and costing the same as they do now is really appealing!

Raxmei wrote:The guys who sprung for metal plasmas must be pissed...

*checks collection*

Lessee... 8 NuCadian Plasmas, 8 old Cadian Plasmas, 4 Tallarn Plasmas and 8 Kasrkin Plasma Guns.

Hey. I could be worse. I could have AUD$1200 worth of Daemons that were made incompatible with my Chaos Army... oh wait...

BYE

Raxmei wrote: Two special weapons come with the troops box, while the other two are still in metal. The guys who sprung for metal plasmas must be pissed

Are you suggesting that plasma guns will come in the standard infantry squad box, or, in the command box or in both? If they come in the infantry squad box that would ALMOST stop me from stocking up on the current IG infantry 20 packs... almost because I realize that the 10 man w/ heavy weapon team set is still a rip.

Purportedly, yes, the new 10 man squads have all 4 special weapon types. As do the command squads.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Raxmei wrote: Two special weapons come with the troops box, while the other two are still in metal. The guys who sprung for metal plasmas must be pissed

Are you suggesting that plasma guns will come in the standard infantry squad box, or, in the command box or in both? If they come in the infantry squad box that would ALMOST stop me from stocking up on the current IG infantry 20 packs... almost because I realize that the 10 man w/ heavy weapon team set is still a rip.

I was talking about the current infantry packs, which come with grenade launchers and flamers. I haven't been keeping up on the miniatures rumors.

WTH is this notion that Plasma is "rare"?

The only reason Plasma is "rare" is that the Impeium doesn't arm every Guardsman with one as their standard weapon.

Plasma isn't Dark Age of Technology archeotech.

Plasma is downright common when you get down to looking at it in any rational sense.

I seriously doubt that forgeworld Ryza is the only plasma weapon producer and if the case is that plasma guns come in your standard infantry squad packages we can throw any basis for rarity out the window. I understand that my las/plas squads are going to be cheaper, but with over-costed equipment they will remain inferior, any way you look at it, to shoota boyz.

This might be the only time I ever do this, but:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The only reason Plasma is "rare" is that the Impeium doesn't arm every Guardsman with one as their standard weapon.

QFT.

But let me qualify the above notation of QTF-ness by stating that I've been saying the same thing for years. Here Jonnyboy just said it first.

BYE

Flamer < Melta < Plasma
So since they want to have all the costs in 5-pt increments, 15 is the least a Plasma Gun can cost.

Unless you want to pay 5 pts more for the basic squad and 5 pts less for the upgrades, which is how SM Tactical Squads work.

Personally I'd rather have the basic unit cheaper. Swarms FTW.>

In that case, Flamer should be "FREE" (i.e. included in squad cost).

You say its rare because IG doesn't arm every guardsmen with one. GW would say because its rare they can't afford to. Its a semantic argument that ignores the simple fact the technology is either too costly or too rare across the imperium to equip more than a small fraction of guardsmen with them.

My suggestion for new codex: All guardsmen have carapice armor and plasma guns.

Result, fluff-wise: all other races exterminated. Praise the Emprah!

aka_mythos wrote:You say its rare because IG doesn't arm every guardsmen with one. GW would say because its rare they can't afford to. Its a semantic argument that ignores the simple fact the technology is either too costly or too rare across the imperium to equip more than a small fraction of guardsmen with them.

No more rare than any other Special Weapon, judging by who can take it. If they actually wanted to represent it as rare, they'd limit who could take it(HQs, Vets, Stormies only instead of every normal Joe McSpecial Weapon), not slap some ridiculous cost on the thing. You know, like different Bolt Rounds(Marine HQs, Sternguard, Thousand Sons).

lord_blackfang wrote:Flamer < Melta < Plasma

False. The three weapons have nothing to do with one another other than all being special weapon options.

The first one hunts light infantry and hordes. The second one hunts vehicles. The third hunts heavy infantry. These are three completely different roles, and they should be costed according to their roles (rather than comparatively).

The Meltagun is one of the most consistent anti-tank guns in the game. Given how difficult vehicle in cover are to kill in 5th, they are certainly worth all 10 points you spend on them. But Plasma Guns are not an upgrade to the Meltagun. You don't gain the benefits of the Meltagun plus whatever the Plasma Gun gives you, so you shouldn't pay more. I know getting people to agree with my 8 point idea will never happen, so at the very most the Plasma Gun is worth 10.

It actual fact it should go like this:

Flamer < Heavy Flamer
Meltagun < Multi-Melta
Plasma Gun < Plasma Cannon

... as the three weapons are unrelated to one another.

The costs and stats of Guard weapons in the end should be:

Flamer - 5 Points
Template S4 AP5 Assault 1
Grenade Launcher - 5 Points
R36 S3/6 AP6/4 Assault 1
Plasma Gun - 10 Points
R24 S7 AP2 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!
Meltagun - 10 Points
R12 S8 AP1 Assault 1/Melta

This way each weapon is different, each weapon has a defined role, and each weapon has a cost appropriate for its role, not a comparative cost based upon the one 'under' it.

BYE

As I (and many others) see it, that "small fraction" is about 20%:
- 4 out of 4 guys in every command squad, then
- 1 out of every 10 line guardsmen.
total of 6+ out of 25 per platoon is roughly 20%.

Plat addresses the rest of the issue nicely, thanks Plat.

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I (and many others) see it...Plat addresses the rest of the issue nicely, thanks Plat.

Notice how he says 'many others' when here I right am, in this very thread, agreeing with him, fighting on his side of the argument. He cannot acknowledge my presence, because then he'd have to admit to reading my posts, and his ego simply couldn't take that. He even goes so far as to thank someone else to further hide it.

Amazing.

BYE

How I'd love to re-enact the first Saw movie with the two of you chained together.

Oh lord have mercy...

BrookM wrote:How I'd love to re-enact the first Saw movie with the two of you chained together.

Even if decided to take Jigaw up on his offer and kill DD in order to save my own skin, DD still wouldn't die, because if he died he'd have to admit that I exist.



[EDIT]: Anyway, enough of that. I apologise for an attempted derailment. Back to Guard.

Someone in the Plastic Valk thread said that they'd seen it in comparison to the FW resin Valk. I mean, I know it's been confirmed in WD, but it's nice to hear from someone who's actually seen it.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrookM wrote:How I'd love to re-enact the first Saw movie with the two of you chained together.

Even if decided to take Jigaw up on his offer and kill DD in order to save my own skin, DD still wouldn't die, because if he died he'd have to admit that I exist.

BYE

Wait, forget that. You two need to star together in a buddy cop movie.

BrookM wrote:Wait, forget that. You two need to star together in a buddy cop movie.

Maybe 40K Radio should book them both for the same night as a comedy act...

One's a cynical old grump.

The other lives in his own reality.

But together they are a force of nature.

HBMC and DD are:

Alphabet Soup - Coming to Theatres in Q2, 2016, Wave 11.

BYE

As guests to help overview the new guard codex. lulz

So how much are you really saving between the points costs of the old and new? I doubt it's enough to make drastic changes despite the OMG 40 POINT SQUADS!!!1 In addition to the plasma cost, IG squads now require full vox networks and who knows what else in order to do what they currently do. Nevermind if the Valk becomes the required troop transport for some reason (new plastic kit perhaps?).

You say its rare because IG doesn't arm every guardsmen with one. GW would say because its rare they can't afford to. Its a semantic argument that ignores the simple fact the technology is either too costly or too rare across the imperium to equip more than a small fraction of guardsmen with them.

No if it's "rare" in the way GW claims it is, they'd make it a 0-X option for every platoon instead of increase the cost.

stonefox wrote:So how much are you really saving between the points costs of the old and new? I doubt it's enough to make drastic changes despite the OMG 40 POINT SQUADS!!!1 In addition to the plasma cost, IG squads now require full vox networks and who knows what else in order to do what they currently do. Nevermind if the Valk becomes the required troop transport for some reason (new plastic kit perhaps?).

The point cost saving is actually pretty good, even with bull$hit 15 point Plasma Guns. A Las/Plas Squda would be 70 points, which is 25 points less (the cost of the current Lascannon) than before.

You are right about the additionals though. If a Vox becomes required for them not to trip over their own feet, and then you have to buy other things, then the savings quickly dissapear.

No if it's "rare" in the way GW claims it is, they'd make it a 0-X option for every platoon instead of increase the cost.

Exactly my point. If you want something to be rare, you make it rare.

BYE

So today that's two threads now where HBMC and DD are agreeing and saying the same points...

I think it's time I stocked up on bottled water and canned foods...

Ozymandias, King of Kings