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Heh. I remember thinking "ShumaGorath is going to be really annoyed about this" when I first read the rumours, but I wasn't sure if you posted anymore.

I agree, it's pretty annoying/typical. Mary Sue Marines. I think I've found a new way to needle the Wolf players around . I'm not opposed to a Movie Marine book, really. But it would have to be Space Wolves, wouldn't it?

H.B.M.C. wrote:And sucks to be a 13th Company player. All you Wulfen players come join us LatD, Ulthwe Strike Force and Speed Freak players at the bar! But drink heartily me lads, 'cause the Inquisition won't be far behind you...

The 13th company wulfen are the only real army you can't play anymore. Except for the webway portals, you can still use all of the models from an Ulthwe strike force, speed freaks the same thing (except fightabomba), LatD are guard or chaos however you built them originally or both.

GG

ShumaGorath wrote:Oh goody, space wolves are going to be mary sue wish fulfillment super-space marines for no reason other than poor design philosophy. They're armies are going to be tiny (despite having a much larger than normal chapter size) and all of their special characters are going to be 250+ point supermen for no reason other than to avoid the shrill cry of the fanboy.

Good goody gumdrops.

Weren't you banned for crapping on threads like this with frightening regularity?

Archonate wrote:That's one reason why many think that putting all SM chapters in one codex makes perfect sense...

But we all know that would never work, because GW needs to make money, and players need their special rules to be...well...special.

Of course, what we get is SM players (and some chaos players) playing "counts as whatever the latest best codex is" anyway, so really, it is like there is only one SM codex, it just happens to be the newest one, not the one with all the chapters in it. After all, its really not about the color of the marines anymore, but their special rules.

Archonate wrote:
Now you must understand, I don't do it out of SM hate. There are a several chapters who's special rules are so similar that the differences could be explained on a codex page between army lists. Compiling such chapters would keep a good number of players from having to wait so long for their codex.
From the point of view of somebody who plays against SMs almost exclusively, (me) the only difference between SM chapters is how the army thrashes around as it dies. Most of the time I don't even ask what chapter I'm fighting, cause it makes no difference in how I play. SMs all die the same. SWs are no exception. (though I must admit, this new codex is making them look a little more extraordinary. )

Then the SW players in your area must be doin' it wrong.

Or you are delusional... it can happen when people don't eat for days on end.

G

Cruentus wrote:

Archonate wrote:That's one reason why many think that putting all SM chapters in one codex makes perfect sense...

But we all know that would never work, because GW needs to make money, and players need their special rules to be...well...special.

Of course, what we get is SM players (and some chaos players) playing "counts as whatever the latest best codex is" anyway, so really, it is like there is only one SM codex, it just happens to be the newest one, not the one with all the chapters in it. After all, its really not about the color of the marines anymore, but their special rules.

They can still have special rules, and they can still release new models for each of the chapters, no?

It does remove the "omg new rules"-incentive tho, so I understand why they wouldn't do it.

Stygian Mole wrote:WGBG 25
TH&SS 25
TDA 5
WTN 10
WP 3
WTT 1
=69pts

Works for me

CYPWTOC?*

*could you please write that out completely?


i've been playing 40k for 10 years and i can only make out half of your acronyms. not everyone has the same abbreviations for the same words across the planet.

warboss wrote:

Stygian Mole wrote:WGBG 25
TH&SS 25
TDA 5
WTN 10
WP 3
WTT 1
=69pts

Works for me

CYPWTOC?*

*could you please write that out completely?


i've been playing 40k for 10 years and i can only make out half of your acronyms. not everyone has the same abbreviations for the same words across the planet.

Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Tactical Dreadnaught Armor
No idea.
Guessing: Wolf Pelt (plus 1 attack when counter charging)
Guessing: Wolf Tail Talisman (can't remember what it does)

Wolf Tooth Necklace. (Hits in melee on 3+)

ah. thanks, the last three were totally unknown to me.

Jayden63 wrote:

warboss wrote:

Stygian Mole wrote:WGBG 25
TH&SS 25
TDA 5
WTN 10
WP 3
WTT 1
=69pts

Works for me

CYPWTOC?*

*could you please write that out completely?


i've been playing 40k for 10 years and i can only make out half of your acronyms. not everyone has the same abbreviations for the same words across the planet.

Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Tactical Dreadnaught Armor
No idea.
Guessing: Wolf Pelt (plus 1 attack when counter charging)
Guessing: Wolf Tail Talisman (can't remember what it does)

Actually it's pretty easy if you play space wolves. He was trying to determine the cost of a generic terminator

Wolf Guard Bodyguard (not battle leader)
Thunder Hammer Storm Shield
Tactical Dreadnought Armor
Wolf Tooth Necklace
Wolf Pelt
Wolf Tail Talisman

All for about the 70 points we've been quoted. They'd be pretty BA though. (that means bad ass)

Brother SRM wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Oh goody, space wolves are going to be mary sue wish fulfillment super-space marines for no reason other than poor design philosophy. They're armies are going to be tiny (despite having a much larger than normal chapter size) and all of their special characters are going to be 250+ point supermen for no reason other than to avoid the shrill cry of the fanboy.

Good goody gumdrops.

Weren't you banned for crapping on threads like this with frightening regularity?

No, I was banned for insulting people constantly in the off topic forum. No one banned me for crapping on threads like this because people know I speak the truth.

Mehh...I stopped going to the off-topic forum once I realized it was Dogma's bully pulpit for evangelizing the Dakka community with his own ironic and dogmatic rhetoric.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahu wrote: A Thunderhammer Storm Shield Terminator in the current dex is 50.

Stygian Mole wrote:WGBG 25
TH&SS 25
TDA 5
WTN 10
WP 3
WTT 1
=69pts

Works for me

How so SM get a TH and SS Terminator for 50 pts if Mahu is correct (that seams high to me...I thought it was more like 42 pts?). For SW you are paying 55 pts? Why more?

Because they are the small elite army, even more than normal marines. It's the Design Philosophy tax.

ShumaGorath wrote:No, I was banned for insulting people constantly in the off topic forum. No one banned me for crapping on threads like this because people know I speak the truth.

The truth?!?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

What is "the truth" about a game designed around one inch tall toys using metamyths from every source the creators could lay their hands on?

Histrionics and self-martyring aside, I do appreciate your admission that you are simply a threadcrapper. With delusions of grandeur, yes, but a threadcrapping troll nonetheless. Awesome.

DakkaDakka, and plastic soldiers are in fact serious business.

How so SM get a TH and SS Terminator for 50 pts if Mahu is correct (that seams high to me...I thought it was more like 42 pts?). For SW you are paying 55 pts? Why more?

To clarify. A Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator is 40 points in a Codex Space Marine Army. A Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator is 50 points in the current Space Wolves Army. And there is no decipherable difference currently which is why Terminators are rarely fielded in Space Wolf Armies currently.

Now I don't mind if Terminators are still expensive, they just need to justify that cost. 70 point Terminators (as rumored) need to be the "hero" level models that cost implies. A Space Marine Captain in Terminator Armor with Thunder Hammer is 170 points. That's a WS 6. BS 5, At 3, 3 Wound, Ld 10 character. I don't think it would so terrible to have a unit with WS 5, BS 4, At 2, 2 Wound, Ld 9, 400 point Terminator Squad?

dienekes96 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:No, I was banned for insulting people constantly in the off topic forum. No one banned me for crapping on threads like this because people know I speak the truth.

The truth?!?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

What is "the truth" about a game designed around one inch tall toys using metamyths from every source the creators could lay their hands on?

Histrionics and self-martyring aside, I do appreciate your admission that you are simply a threadcrapper. With delusions of grandeur, yes, but a threadcrapping troll nonetheless. Awesome.

At least when I post, I reference the topic at hand, rather than build near 800 posts off of longwinded tear downs of others.

DakkaDakka, and plastic soldiers are in fact serious business.

Its a forum dedicated to tiny plastic men. It's likely that most participants will take the tiny plastic men as srius bsns.

(back to the topic at hand)

Now I don't mind if Terminators are still expensive, they just need to justify that cost. 70 point Terminators (as rumored) need to be the "hero" level models that cost implies.

Why are space wolf terminators better than any other armies though? What justifies the increased stats and in that sense the cost? They aren't stronger, they don't shoot better, and they don't have better equipment. All terminators are veterans of a thousand battles, forged in the heat of the hardest conflicts over centuries gifted with ancient relics of armor and weaponry that often times and in many armies date back to the great crusade.

Because if you are paying 70pts for a terminator you should get a 70pt terminator rather than a 40pt terminator with some extra bling.

sonofruss wrote:Because if you are paying 70pts for a terminator you should get a 70pt terminator rather than a 40pt terminator with some extra bling.

But shouldn't they just be the same price as the rest of the terminators, with some variant rules, alternate item choices, and drawbacks to make up for the variant rule extras? Like would make sense? Considering they aren't all that much different/better?

One the point cost is a drawback and a 6 attack lightning claw terminator is a boost from a 4 attack terminator but not a 30 point boost

You could argue that space wolves are allowed to be that much better because they start thier training by kitting them all up in power armour and sending them off to fight, no years of sneaking around and infiltration training...., just straight in there with the fighting. Or because they are genetically wolfish, i'm sure that could help towards making you harder in a fight.

Sirius42 wrote:You could argue that space wolves are allowed to be that much better because they start thier training by kitting them all up in power armour and sending them off to fight, no years of sneaking around and infiltration training...., just straight in there with the fighting. Or because they are genetically wolfish, i'm sure that could help towards making you harder in a fight.

Nope. It's the hangovers. They're just plain mean.

Mahu wrote:To clarify. A Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator is 40 points in a Codex Space Marine Army. A Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator is 50 points in the current Space Wolves Army. And there is no decipherable difference currently which is why Terminators are rarely fielded in Space Wolf Armies currently.

Well, assault termies at least; current shooty SW terminators are still more expensive, but once you tack on the Runic Charm (reroll one failed armor save per game), and the ease in making each model unique, and the ability to take three Assault Cannons in a five-man squad (or take the Wolf Priest instead of the WGBL and, combined with the Runic Charms, become damn near invulnerable to small arms fire with a mere two ACs in a five man squad), they have their advantages. They're expensive, sure, but if kitted out right, they're not particularly a waste.

One of my favorite 40k games involved me dropping a squad of WG termies in the middle of a guard army, then getting focus fired by all 1500 points of it and not having a single one killed. To be fair the IG army wasn't terribly well optimized and I was lucky on the invulnerable saves, but I still ate close to 40 non-AP wounds without losing a model.

The waste is in the extra 10 points you pay for a WG Termie over a SM termie armed exactly the same. Not mentioning the fact that SW can't teleport.

You should pay points based on the effectiveness of the model. If two models have the same effectiveness then they should be priced similarily.

As for wolf pelts, necklaces, runic charms and assault cannons, SW pay alot of points to field those wargear options...they don't get them for free. So yes, they are effective, how ever you are paying for that effectiveness.

Lowinor wrote:
Well, assault termies at least; current shooty SW terminators are still more expensive, but once you tack on the Runic Charm (reroll one failed armor save per game), and the ease in making each model unique, and the ability to take three Assault Cannons in a five-man squad (or take the Wolf Priest instead of the WGBL and, combined with the Runic Charms, become damn near invulnerable to small arms fire with a mere two ACs in a five man squad), they have their advantages. They're expensive, sure, but if kitted out right, they're not particularly a waste.

One of my favorite 40k games involved me dropping a squad of WG termies in the middle of a guard army, then getting focus fired by all 1500 points of it and not having a single one killed. To be fair the IG army wasn't terribly well optimized and I was lucky on the invulnerable saves, but I still ate close to 40 non-AP wounds without losing a model.

I took a similar unit to Ard Boyz prelims and semi's, and all but one game they were great. Had a WGBL w/ Assault cannon hitting on deuces and 2 Cyclone racks in the unit, Charms, and 4 wolves tied to the WGBL. I have tried both methods and 3x AC's has not measured up to the 4 krak/frag shots and one AC in my experience. Mainly due to the versatility in range and the 4x blast templates on a horde.

If GW intends on selling alot of the remolded terminators then I highly doubt they will be ringing in at around double a standard SM model. Most likely it is alittle bit of both speculations and the cost is lower than 70 with the stat bonuses to make up the difference (+1 atk, maybe +1ws).

ShumaGorath wrote:

sonofruss wrote:Because if you are paying 70pts for a terminator you should get a 70pt terminator rather than a 40pt terminator with some extra bling.

But shouldn't they just be the same price as the rest of the terminators, with some variant rules, alternate item choices, and drawbacks to make up for the variant rule extras? Like would make sense? Considering they aren't all that much different/better?

This argument is not to necessarily agree with the need for "better" Space Wolf Terminators over other chapters, but the uniqueness of Space Wolves is their emphasis on personal glory and honor. Codex Chapters may create veterans of a thousand battles, but they are still solders in a strict ridged military system, they still follow a certain amount of rules when approaching Warfare, they all have similar line of training and advancement. It's rare for a codex chapter marines to, say, develop greater skills with blades and axes because it isn't part of their strict daily lives. Space Wolf marines can go off and spend a few years hunting kraken on Fenris for no other reason then personal glory, you obtain a certain set of skills when you do something like that, an experience that say a Ultramarines Veteran may not do.

My personal view of the Space Wolves has always been that they are the "Klingons" of 40k. They have a set of codes and honor, but they emphasis deeds and achievements. It one of the reasons why I think the Saga's that are rumored are such a cool idea for this army.

Mahu: I understand what you are saying, but the fluff tells that every chapter is the best. Remember in Codex Marines where it talks about the Feast of Blades and how the chapters send their champs and fight it out in melee? I would think that the Sable Swords (only chapter to have won twice. With the same guy.) who, apparently, spend all their time dueling and fighting and stuff would match a Space Wolf in close combat. Same thing for Black Templars (Emperor's Champion and all that). Oh, and let's not forget Blood Angels.

But the rules say grey marines are the best now, so what can you do?

I have both SWs and UMs, FWIW, and think that, from a design view, all SMs should be in one codex. Give all of 'em Bolter/BP/CCW and let the SCs and HQ change things up. So you get Furious Charge if you take the Red special character, Counter Charge if you take the grey one, Stubborn if you take the green or yellow one, Infiltrate if you take the black one, troop bikes if you take a bike one, troop jumps if you take the jump pack one retinue termies if you take a termie one, etc.

Most of the differences are really modeling and philosophy, not so much units in a small scale battle.

That being said, I will buy the SW Codex :-)

Well, the cat has been let out of the bag when it comes to certain chapters getting their own codexes, and unfortunately Space Marines sell, so it will always be a part of 40k.

They have decided that rules wise that Grey Marines will be the character heavy/numbers lite Space Marine army.

I can't complain, I play both Salamanders and Space Wolves so I win both ways.