Space Wolf Book

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**Smashotron**

After seeing all this gak (most balanced, some OTT) I think its about time they allow Dark Angels to ride Lions! and Ultramarines to ride Imperial Citizens!

That should balance things out.

**wyomingfox**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I think it will be fun when Space Wolves can make better terminator armies than Dark Angels and get better psychic powers than Thousand Sons. Cause that's fluffy.

Well then you don't have to worry about it because WGT cost 50% more to field than DA termies equiped the same.

Gwar! wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:1
At least can we take Wolf Guard Leaders to put another PF on?

And give up a free second special weapon

...that is just Heresy...unless it is BC as at BS 3 they can't fire guns anyways...except for flamers

...but BC can't use flamers without a WG chaperone....

**scuddman**

A wolfguard terminator is actually pretty cheap. Base 33, storm bolter powe weapon. For 43 points, you can have a storm bolter frost blade terminator. It's only stupidly expensive if you add on too many storm shields, but that should be since they can mix and match gear how they want.

**wyomingfox**

Huh? I thought Base 33 was just for TDA (no weapons). I could use some more clarification.
*What is the cost for SB and PF?
*Dual Lightning Claws?
*TH and SS?

**Hulksmash**

at 33 points they have a pw and sb. Cost of item depends on which weapon your replacing. 2 Wolf Claws is 48pts. TH/SS is I believe 58pts. and PF/SB is 43pts iirc.

It is kinda funny that a PA WG w/2 Wolf claws costs the same as a WG in terminator armor w/2 Wolf claws. All in all from what I saw it seems to be a very balanced list. There are only a few units I can't see myself taking. Things like the wolf packs, iron priests, and wolf riding SM's. But most of the stuff has a place

**Gwar!**

wyomingfox wrote:unless it is BC as at BS 3 they can't fire guns anyways...except for flamers ...but BC can't use flamers without a WG chaperone....

I thought Blood Claws can Fire if they are more than 6" away? Flamers are about 8" iirc.

**wyomingfox**

Oh that is much better

...though I won't be fielding any TH/SS figs...maybe some SS/PW figs as they are simply there to take PW wounds anyways.

**em_en_oh_pee**

I so excite!

Just spend nearly a grand on IG just to need another for Wolves. Damn you, GW! You knew what you were doing...

**combatmedic**

Do we know if the storm shields are the same as the new SM ones? (gives 3+ invur for both shooting and CC attacks)

Would make me feel a little better...

**wyomingfox**

Gwar! wrote:
wyomingfox wrote:unless it is BC as at BS 3 they can't fire guns anyways...except for flamers ...but BC can't use flamers without a WG chaperone....
I thought Blood Claws can Fire if they are more than 6" away? Flamers are about 8" iirc.

They are CC troops, so if you are close enough to flame you would hope you are close enough to assault...that and at 7-8" you won't be hitting that many enemy models with the flame template.

BC haven't changed stat wise yet they went up one point each, can't shoot and assault unless chaperoned, and lost thier multiple special CC weapons? Oh well, we have dirt cheap Sky Claws

, cheap GH with 2 special weapons and super grit

, and Njal seams like a great defensive buff

.

**Gwar!**

wyomingfox wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
wyomingfox wrote:unless it is BC as at BS 3 they can't fire guns anyways...except for flamers ...but BC can't use flamers without a WG chaperone....
I thought Blood Claws can Fire if they are more than 6" away? Flamers are about 8" iirc.

They are CC troops, so if you are close enough to flame you would hope you are close enough to assault...that and at 7-8" you won't be hitting that many enemy models with the flame template.

BC haven't changed stat wise yet they went up one point each, can't shoot and assault unless chaperoned, and lost thier multiple special CC weapons? Oh well, we have dirt cheap Sky Claws , cheap GH with 2 special weapons and super grit , and Njal seams like a great defensive buff .

Lets be fair, Blood Claws were under-costed, especially with up to 4 Hidden Powerfists and +2 Attacks WHEN CHARGED AT.

**Rated G**

I don't understand. Flamers are assualt weapons. What would keep BCs from using the flamer and assaulting? Did I overlook something new in the headstrong rule?

**Scottywan82**

Yeah the wording of the rule is "If at the beginning of the shooting phase, the unit is within 6" of an enemy unit, they may not shoot".

Lame because they COULD shoot and still assault. So lame.

**Rated G**

Ouch. That sucks. Thanks for the clarification. Might as well get remodelling my stuff then, these recent rumors seem reliable enough.

**Lowinor**

Scottywan82 wrote:Lame because they COULD shoot and still assault. So lame.

Meh, the lameness of it is overrated, since you ignore it if you have a Wolf Guard in the squad, and everyone took WG in BC squads before anyway.

The reduction in special weapons really hurts them, though; I'd have to peruse the book a good bit more, but I'm not sure I'd take them over GH given the change to special weapon allotment.

**Da Boss**

Gwar! wrote:
Da Boss wrote:Thousand sons don't get lash of submission.
El Facepalm. Fine, they dont get Bolt of Change then!

Not quite the same as Lash.
I rarely see armies built around dual Bolt of Change.
Space Wolves are flat out better at psychic defense and offense than Tzeentch.
Not suprising, considering some random chaplain is tougher than Typhus, Herald of Nurgle.
Stupid nonsense rules.

**radiohazard**

Hang on a mo. WGTs cost 43 pts with frostblade and storm bolter or 33 pts with PW and Storm Bolter?

IIRC a basic terminator squad costs 200 pts base plus heavy weapons. That's 40 pts per model. For only 3 pts more you get a terminator with a storm bolter and IIRC a +1 str PW.

I'd take the space wolf option any day. A str 5 PW is much better than a PF when it comes to killing MEQ or anything else for that matter. Ok so they can't take out tanks - doesn't matter when you have dreads with 2 TL AC and long fangs packin' heavy weapons.

**wyomingfox**

Gwar! wrote:
wyomingfox wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
wyomingfox wrote:unless it is BC as at BS 3 they can't fire guns anyways...except for flamers ...but BC can't use flamers without a WG chaperone....
I thought Blood Claws can Fire if they are more than 6" away? Flamers are about 8" iirc.

They are CC troops, so if you are close enough to flame you would hope you are close enough to assault...that and at 7-8" you won't be hitting that many enemy models with the flame template.

BC haven't changed stat wise yet they went up one point each, can't shoot and assault unless chaperoned, and lost thier multiple special CC weapons? Oh well, we have dirt cheap Sky Claws , cheap GH with 2 special weapons and super grit , and Njal seams like a great defensive buff .
Lets be fair, Blood Claws were under-costed, especially with up to 4 Hidden Powerfists and +2 Attacks WHEN CHARGED AT.

We are talking about a 15 man blood claw squad at WS 3 and a 46 point Wolf Guard...that is 292 points...add in LRC so they actually see combat and we are up to 547 points (roughly a 1/3 of your army)...of course it is going to pawn what ever it slams into...it should! And...
....
....
....
....
Did you just say FAIR! Them's casual gamers words

. Maw, grab the rope...we gots us a hangin!

**skipmcne**

Hulksmash wrote:at 33 points they have a pw and sb. Cost of item depends on which weapon your replacing. 2 Wolf Claws is 48pts. TH/SS is I believe 58pts. and PF/SB is 43pts iirc.

It is kinda funny that a PA WG w/2 Wolf claws costs the same as a WG in terminator armor w/2 Wolf claws. All in all from what I saw it seems to be a very balanced list. There are only a few units I can't see myself taking. Things like the wolf packs, iron priests, and wolf riding SM's. But most of the stuff has a place

Fenrisian Wolves (8pts) – WS4 A4 Sv6+ Cavalry

... counts as screening fiends?

**wyomingfox**

Why screen when you can mount up in rhinos and drop pods?

Honestly, I don't think they are that bad...if only I could get them to outflank...and if only Sky Claws weren't super cheap.

What is real hillarious is that they pawn hormies at the cheap.

**puma713**

wyomingfox wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
wyomingfox wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
wyomingfox wrote:unless it is BC as at BS 3 they can't fire guns anyways...except for flamers ...but BC can't use flamers without a WG chaperone....
I thought Blood Claws can Fire if they are more than 6" away? Flamers are about 8" iirc.

They are CC troops, so if you are close enough to flame you would hope you are close enough to assault...that and at 7-8" you won't be hitting that many enemy models with the flame template.

BC haven't changed stat wise yet they went up one point each, can't shoot and assault unless chaperoned, and lost thier multiple special CC weapons? Oh well, we have dirt cheap Sky Claws , cheap GH with 2 special weapons and super grit , and Njal seams like a great defensive buff .
Lets be fair, Blood Claws were under-costed, especially with up to 4 Hidden Powerfists and +2 Attacks WHEN CHARGED AT.

We are talking about a 15 man blood claw squad at WS 3 and a 46 point Wolf Guard...that is 292 points...add in LRC so they actually see combat and we are up to 547 points (roughly a 1/3 of your army)...of course it is going to pawn what ever it slams into...it should! And...
....
....
....
....
Did you just say FAIR! Them's casual gamers words . Maw, grab the rope...we gots us a hangin!

That's why I think the downfall of the Space Wolf army will be cost and Initiative. Although I haven't heard anyone mention initiative yet, an entire squad armed with powerfists won't amount to a hill of beans if you're facing a full squad of genestealers/daemonettes/harlequins/maybe khorne berserkers that get to go before you anyway. And even if they don't strike down the Blood Claw unit, they're going to take most of them down - enough so that the Blood Claw unit doesn't get much of an attack back.

Take a daemonette squad backed by Skarbrand. Even if they -don't- get the charge (the Blood Claws pouring out of the LRC, for example), then the daemonettes will go first, with 45 attacks, with re-rolls and rending. Chances are, they'll kill most of the blood claws.

I'm not saying this is the way it would always play out - the blood claws may do really well or the daemonettes may do really poorly, but either way, "of course it is going to pawn what ever it slams into" for 547 points is not entirely accurate.

**Gwar!**

Quick Questions for those who have seen the book:
When you say 2 HQ/Slot, do you HAVE to take 2 HQs to fill the 1 Slot or is it like the Heralds where you can take up to 2 per slot?

Also what are the Minimum Squad Sizes for the Troops Choices? And are there any new troops choices?

**Zid**

scuddman wrote:I'm glad I made a second pass at the book, there's a bunch of things I missed the first time or was wrong about.

Long fangs are 15 points per model and are leadership 9. Heavy bolters are 5 points, missiles 10, plasma 20, lascannons 25

Venerable dreads can take saga of majesty (reroll failed morale if unit within 6"
Dreads and ven dreads can take wolftail talisman (mulifies psychic power targetting model on 5+_ and wolftooth necklace (hit on 3+ in hth)

Wolf lords, rune priests, and their version of the chaplain are all base 100 points. Their equipment options vary quite a bit.

Bc's may have a wolf guard. They are very similar to grey hunters in this regard.

Wolf priests have a different rule where you pick a unit type(such as infantry or bikes) at the start of the game. THe unit he is joined with and himself gain preferred enemy towards that unit. Everything else is the exact same as chaplains but has different names.

Rhinos, like vindi's and speeders are exactly the same as space marines.

One attack bike per bike squad.

All blood claw units, whether bikes, jump packs, or whatever, have headstrong as a rule. If an enemy unit in your SHOOTING phase is within 6", you may not shoot and must charge in the assault phase.

No land speeder storm

Mark of the wulfen just gives d6+1 attacks to one model. It does not give rending .

Drop pods still ahve the droppod assault rules, so half of the pods must show up first turn.

A rune priests runic weapon doubles as a special kind of psychic hood. 24" range like hood, but on a 4+ power fails.

The initiative test psychic power is specified as a shooting psychic power...implies you would get cover saves. Monstrous creatures subtract 1 to their roll, but a 6 always fails.

Sagas:
Bear: eternal warrior. Funny, only the wolf lord can take this saga, and all the normal characters can only take one saga
Majesty: Unit within 6" may reroll failed morale tests.
Hunter: Character has outflank and stealth. Wolfpriest only
Warriorborn: # models killed in last assault phase give a bonus attack in this assault phase for every model killed last assault phase.
Beastslayer: Reroll hth hits vs. walkers, monstrous creatures, or things with toughness 5 or higher.
Ironwolf:: Character in vehicle moves extra d3"

Those sagas.... I believe I'm rolling space wolves next >.>

**wyomingfox**

My point was that the unit in question wasn't as cheap as it seams and that comparing a 560+ point unit's power to a typical unit that runs only 200 points or so is not very realistic.

In your comparison, the Blood Claws would likely get the charge as LRC are dead hard to kill and deamons and nids don't have good ranged weopons to shut AV 14 tanks down before hand. Also, the tank and blood claws would shoot some before attacking, thus whittling the numbers down a little. And many of your rending attacks would sadly be consolidated on a few PF wielding marines (don't need fists against deamons)...ooh forgot the flamer. So I would still place my odds on the BC super unit.

But again, we are talking about a 560+unit slamming into a significantly cheaper unit...so mehh. Odds are the SW opponent would be better off to outmaneuvering the huge points sink or throw a few expendable units away.

**scuddman**

You do not have to take two hq's per slot. They just break the force org rules for no apparant reason...

YOu can take 5-10 grey hunters, 5-15 blood claws. Scouts are elites, so that's it for troops.

Although why you would only take 5 blood claws is beyond me.

**Zid**

wyomingfox wrote:My point was that the unit in question wasn't as cheap as it seams and that comparing a 560+ point unit's power to a typical unit that runs only 200 points or so is not very realistic.

In your comparison, the Blood Claws would likely get the charge as LRC are dead hard to kill and deamons and nids don't have good ranged weopons to shut AV 14 tanks down before hand. Also, the tank and blood claws would shoot some before attacking. And many of your rending attacks would sadly be consolidated on a few PF wielding marines (don't need fits against deamons)...ooh forgot the flamer. So I would still place my odds on the BC super unit.

But again, we are talking about a 560+unit slamming into a significantly cheaper unit...so mehh. Odds are your opponent would be better off simply out manuevering the huge points sink.

Demons have a hard time vs AV 14 as is. And yeah, nids WILL have to assault the LRC to down it, its their only anti-tank lol

**Lordhat**

Smashotron wrote:After seeing all this gak (most balanced, some OTT) I think its about time they allow Dark Angels to ride Lions! and Ultramarines to ride Imperial Citizens!

That should balance things out.

Quoted!

**puma713**

wyomingfox wrote:My point was that the unit in question wasn't as cheap as it seams and that comparing a 560+ point unit's power to a typical unit that runs only 200 points or so is not very realistic.

In your comparison, the Blood Claws would likely get the charge as LRC are dead hard to kill and deamons and nids don't have good ranged weopons to shut AV 14 tanks down before hand. Also, the tank and blood claws would shoot some before attacking, thus whittling the numbers down a little. And many of your rending attacks would sadly be consolidated on a few PF wielding marines (don't need fists against deamons)...ooh forgot the flamer. So I would still place my odds on the BC super unit.

But again, we are talking about a 560+unit slamming into a significantly cheaper unit...so mehh. Odds are the SW opponent would be better off to outmaneuvering the huge points sink or throw a few expendable units away.

The tank, yes, but the unit wouldn't be able to shoot, correct? You need to be greater than 6" away to shoot with Blood Claws (according to the rumors) and if you're beyond 6", you're not assaulting. So, you can shoot all you like, but the daemonettes will get the charge and, therefore, get 60 attacks instead of 45.

But yes, I get your point. A squad of daemonettes is 220, with 15, Transfixing Gaze and Instrument. Two of those are still cheaper than what was proposed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zid wrote:

Demons have a hard time vs AV 14 as is.

Soul Grinders, Screamers, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons. Not to mention easy glances with anything that has Breath or Bolts.

Zid wrote:

And yeah, nids WILL have to assault the LRC to down it, its their only anti-tank lol

Don't forget Zoanthropes, but yeah, they're more severely limited.

**MilkmanAl**

wyomingfox wrote:

What is real hillarious is that they pawn hormies at the cheap.

No joke. That gives me hope that maybe gaunts will be *gasp* costed properly in the new codex. I really like the wolf idea, though. I'm not sure what the unit size limitations on those are, but I'd sure like to give a SW swarm army a shot. That sounds pretty amazing. Hordes of wolves charging across the table backed up by a crapload of hardcore assault units (with characters in them, no doubt).

**Durandal**

The SW characters have always been expensive. However it looks as though the SW have lost their huge supply of PF and plasma in exchange for some exotic unit choices.

I have no problem with that now that it seems the stupid "will not teleport" and "won't use jumppacks" rules are gone.

It also appears that except for the loss of the wolfen, perhaps compensated for by the wolf riders, you can make a close approximation of the 13th company using outflanking wolf guard.